Ravel's Rotunda

[Roasted Swan]

Yes, that says "premiere recording of original ballets" for Mother Goose and Boléro! But the rest of the release completely fails to deliver on details. The back cover and booklet say "premiere recording of this edition." Mother Goose's copyright listing says " © 2021 XXI Music Publishing, Ravel Edition, Volume VII" and we also see "© 2008 Breitkopf & Härtel, Wiesbaden (La Valse, Boléro)." It also confusingly assigns copyright for Valses nobles et sentimentales to....conductor John Wilson?? This appears to be a typo as none of the press materials mention Valses being at all modified.

The booklet essay itself merely says the following (about Boléro, NOT Valses):
"For this recording John Wilson has meticulously restored many details of the score which have become lost through careless reading of Ravel's intentions and through the transformation of the ballet score into a popular concert piece."

The Ravel Edition official website is in French but from what I can tell, mostly gives details of its own success (listing which conductors and pianists have used it) rather than actually explaining differences.

So I decided to do the only thing I can: listen to it. Via streaming, I tried these "world premiere recordings."

They sound the same.

In Mother Goose, I noticed the one and only difference that the tam-tam or gong is very different in sound from usual. Everything else audible at a mid-level computer speaker volume was the same.

In Bolero, admittedly I do not have the piece memorized as I do Mother Goose, and do not perfectly remember which instruments play in which order, but as far as I could tell, there was no difference of even one note. By the way, Wilson's timing is 14:42. I like a faster Bolero and I liked this one, but this is NOT, contrary to the booklet, a "meticulous restoring" of something "lost through careless reading of Ravel's intentions." Ravel preferred a slower Bolero; his recording is 15:50, he said in interviews he wanted it to be about 17', and he warned conductors against ever increasing the tempo as things get louder. In other words, the tempo here is...well, a careless reading of Ravel's intentions.

Releases like this would be justified for saying something like "new, corrected edition of the score." But proclaiming this to be a "world premiere recording" and the "original", without providing a single word of justification, is ridiculous and deplorable.

EDIT/UPDATE: Presto Classical has an article up explaining the biggest differences in Bolero, which I did not catch. 1. There are two snare drummers who alternate, rather than one who must slog the whole way through. 2. There are new triangle and castanets parts near the end.

In performance it is not that unusual/certainly not unique to 'share' the side drum part between more than one player.  Making it antiphonal is a bit of hi-fi fun but nothing more than that.  I agree with you that trumpeting the uniqueness of a performance and then there being little audibly different smacks more of marketing hype rather than anything of great musicological worth.  Personally I also dislike the implied criticism of all the (great) performers previously who were "careless".  Wilson did much the same with his recent recordings of Eric Coates on Chandos - they also were proclaimed as new and carefully restored editions but to the ear they sounded identical (and I know my Coates very well) - very well played, but nothing substantively different.

[Brian]

(cross post from listening thread)



Good news: the Authenticity Police (including me, as you can see from my previous post in this thread!) can stand down about this recording of "Le Tombeau," which includes the Fugue and Toccata as orchestrated in 2013 by Kenneth Hesketh. The Hesketh versions are absolutely bang-on accurate evocations of Ravel's soundworld, with glowing impressionist strings, bubbling winds, tiny instrumental details inspired by/quoting from other Ravel works, and the same modest orchestral forces as the other four movements. It's absolutely superb work, more satisfying than the four-movement Ravel version (though of course it still isn't as good as the original piano suite). The only complaint I have concerns a tiny detail of the performance - trumpet not prominent enough in the first bars of the Rigaudon.

Of course, there is a previous orchestration of these two movements by Zoltan Kocsis. And of course the Kocsis version is good too. Kocsis' vision of the toccata is more toccat-ish, in that the strings like the winds are treated like staccato repeated-note spinners. Kocsis, however, adds considerable percussion - snare drum, celesta, tambourine, maracas, chimes, and that wind machine type thing that goes weeeeeeeooooo - which makes his orchestra different from the Ravel original. I also don't remember the Ravel movements having so many trombones in them.

I will now be looking up Kenneth Hesketh's original compositions. He's clearly very, very good.

[Herman]

The booklet essay itself merely says the following (about Boléro, NOT Valses):
"For this recording John Wilson has meticulously restored many details of the score which have become lost through careless reading of Ravel's intentions and through the transformation of the ballet score into a popular concert piece."

The Ravel Edition official website is in French but from what I can tell, mostly gives details of its own success (listing which conductors and pianists have used it) rather than actually explaining differences.

So I decided to do the only thing I can: listen to it. Via streaming, I tried these "world premiere recordings."

They sound the same.

[...]
Releases like this would be justified for saying something like "new, corrected edition of the score." But proclaiming this to be a "world premiere recording" and the "original", without providing a single word of justification, is ridiculous and deplorable.

EDIT/UPDATE: Presto Classical has an article up explaining the biggest differences in Bolero, which I did not catch. 1. There are two snare drummers who alternate, rather than one who must slog the whole way through. 2. There are new triangle and castanets parts near the end.

This is the John Wilson who also works with an orchestra modestly called The John Wilson Orchestra, doesn't he? Nuff said.

[Madiel]

(cross post from listening thread)



Good news: the Authenticity Police (including me, as you can see from my previous post in this thread!) can stand down about this recording of "Le Tombeau," which includes the Fugue and Toccata as orchestrated in 2013 by Kenneth Hesketh. The Hesketh versions are absolutely bang-on accurate evocations of Ravel's soundworld, with glowing impressionist strings, bubbling winds, tiny instrumental details inspired by/quoting from other Ravel works, and the same modest orchestral forces as the other four movements. It's absolutely superb work, more satisfying than the four-movement Ravel version (though of course it still isn't as good as the original piano suite). The only complaint I have concerns a tiny detail of the performance - trumpet not prominent enough in the first bars of the Rigaudon.

Of course, there is a previous orchestration of these two movements by Zoltan Kocsis. And of course the Kocsis version is good too. Kocsis' vision of the toccata is more toccat-ish, in that the strings like the winds are treated like staccato repeated-note spinners. Kocsis, however, adds considerable percussion - snare drum, celesta, tambourine, maracas, chimes, and that wind machine type thing that goes weeeeeeeooooo - which makes his orchestra different from the Ravel original. I also don't remember the Ravel movements having so many trombones in them.

I will now be looking up Kenneth Hesketh's original compositions. He's clearly very, very good.

Okay, but... I still look at that cover and, like so many Ravel orchestral albums, I'm struck by just HOW MUCH of it is orchestrations.

I'm sure Ravel wrote enough actual orchestral pieces to fill an album, so I'm often surprised at how favoured the piano pieces seem to be. In some cases I think it might just be because they're shorter and make a lighter program.

[Mirror Image]

Okay, but... I still look at that cover and, like so many Ravel orchestral albums, I'm struck by just HOW MUCH of it is orchestrations.

I'm sure Ravel wrote enough actual orchestral pieces to fill an album, so I'm often surprised at how favoured the piano pieces seem to be. In some cases I think it might just be because they're shorter and make a lighter program.

There is one instance where I'm okay with another composer/arranger making an orchestration of a composer's work and I'm thinking here, in particular, of André Caplet. This composer/arranger was friends with Debussy and was granted permission from him to orchestrate works like La boîte à joujoux and Children's Corner. If I'm not mistaken, he also helped Debussy with orchestrating part of Le Martyre de saint Sébastien. Caplet was an excellent orchestrator, but the seal of approval from Debussy meant that the composer was pleased with his work. So Caplet gets the thumbs up from me! Of course, modern orchestrators don't have the privilege of being alive or knowing a composer who has been dead for a 100 years, so this is why I'm starting to loosen my previous opinion and accept newer arrangements. I don't take them as the last word of course, but, sometimes, they can be fun to listen to like for instance John Adams' orchestration of four songs from Debussy's Cinq poèmes de Charles Baudelaire, which don't really sound like a Debussy orchestration and are perhaps closer in style to a composer like Delius.

[Brian]

Or that really great album of Rautavaara orchestrations of Sibelius songs.

Okay, but... I still look at that cover and, like so many Ravel orchestral albums, I'm struck by just HOW MUCH of it is orchestrations.

I'm sure Ravel wrote enough actual orchestral pieces to fill an album, so I'm often surprised at how favoured the piano pieces seem to be. In some cases I think it might just be because they're shorter and make a lighter program.

Original orchestral Ravel:
Daphnis
Mother Goose
La valse
Bolero
Rapsodie espagnole
The piano concertos

That adds up to about 3 hours of music.

Arranged/orchestrated Ravel:
Menuet antique
Valses
Une barque/Alborada
Pavane
Pictures at an Exhibition

That adds up to about one CD (75-80 minutes) of music.

EDIT: I forgot the Scheherazade overture as it's not in the "complete" box set contents I was looking at (Cluytens).

[Spotted Horses]

Or that really great album of Rautavaara orchestrations of Sibelius songs.

Original orchestral Ravel:
Daphnis
Mother Goose
La valse
Bolero
Rapsodie espagnole
The piano concertos

That adds up to about 3 hours of music.

Arranged/orchestrated Ravel:
Menuet antique
Valses
Une barque/Alborada
Pavane
Pictures at an Exhibition

That adds up to about one CD (75-80 minutes) of music.

EDIT: I forgot the Scheherazade overture as it's not in the "complete" box set contents I was looking at (Cluytens).

I believe Mother Goose (Ma Mere l'Oye) was originally a piano duet, later orchestrated by Ravel. It should drop down into the second category. Putting the piano concerti with orchestral music also seems a bit iffy to me.

[Brian]

I believe Mother Goose (Ma Mere l'Oye) was originally a piano duet, later orchestrated by Ravel. It should drop down into the second category. Putting the piano concerti with orchestral music also seems a bit iffy to me.

Shoot, you're right. And then there are other works which he published in piano versions afterwards (Daphnis, La valse). Not sure I fully appreciated how efficient he was with turning a handful of ideas into a lifetime of work. 

[Madiel]

Mother Goose did have extra music when it was orchestrated, so arguably it edges into the other category... but yeah, I would like to see more albums that focused on La Valse, Bolero, Rapsodie espagnole, Sherherazade overture

Fully agree with MI about it being different when someone was orchestrating in communication with the original composer and Caplet is excellent example of that. Also I think it was Koechlin who did a lot of orchestration for Faure.

[Mirror Image]

Mother Goose did have extra music when it was orchestrated, so arguably it edges into the other category... but yeah, I would like to see more albums that focused on La Valse, Bolero, Rapsodie espagnole, Sherherazade overture

Fully agree with MI about it being different when someone was orchestrating in communication with the original composer and Caplet is excellent example of that. Also I think it was Koechlin who did a lot of orchestration for Faure.

Good point about Koechlin. He also orchestrated Debussy's Khamma in 1913, but I honestly can't remember whether Debussy gave Koechlin his blessing or not since the whole project was a failed one.

[JBS]

I believe Mother Goose (Ma Mere l'Oye) was originally a piano duet, later orchestrated by Ravel. It should drop down into the second category. Putting the piano concerti with orchestral music also seems a bit iffy to me.

Guess what? Rhapsodie Espagnole was also first composed for piano duet and then orchestrated.
Tzigane was also first composed for violin and piano, then orchestrated.

This is the John Wilson who also works with an orchestra modestly called The John Wilson Orchestra, doesn't he? Nuff said.

Wilson's recordings with the Sinfonia of London have been quite good.

[bhodges]

One of my all-time favorite composers. A friend found this quote by Stravinsky, which I'd not seen: "one of the most perfect of Swiss watchmakers."

Just found two recent uploads:

Augustin Hadelich and Orion Weiss in the Sonata for Violin and Piano in G Major (recorded November 2021 at the Ordway in St. Paul, Minnesota)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkIxuxqBBJE

Alan Gilbert and the NDR Elbphilharmonie Orchestra, ending their first post-lockdown concert with Boléro (recorded June 2021). Great shots of the gorgeous hall in Hamburg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjXKZtos1zw

--Bruce

[bhodges]

Birthday party continues with Rapsodie espagnole, in a performance I just found this morning from 1989 in Japan, with Riccardo Muti and the Philadelphia Orchestra. Audio and video are not bad, considering the age.

Man, I loved the Muti era with that group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U483Fa9zNc

--Bruce

[Mirror Image]

Nice, Bruce. I'll spend a lot of my listening for today dedicated to Ravel. And to honor the composer, I'll leave his avatar up for this entire month. This particular photo is one I have framed hanging on the wall in my bedroom:

[Brahmsian]

And to honor the composer, I'll leave his avatar up for this entire month.

We are monitoring this to see if you keep your word. 

[Mirror Image]

We are monitoring this to see if you keep your word. 

[Mirror Image]

In celebration of one of my absolute favorite composer's birthday, let me repost this video:

https://www.youtube.com/v/oFxySK-GePM

[Brian]

And to honor the composer, I'll leave his avatar up for this entire month.

Three days later...

[Mirror Image]

Three days later...

And yet, it changed again.

[Brahmsian]

Three days later...

Ha ha ha! You beat me to it.