Historical Recordings

[Bogey]

WWII Recordings: Removed and turned into a thread.

[Bogey]

George wrote in reference to some possible music on this set that may have also been picked up by the Philips label:



Music and Arts does not have the greatest track record for SQ, while Philips has one of the best.

My response:

That could very well be and would not shock me in the least.  The tricky part I am finding with purchasing historical recordings is finding the best sounding version or mastering of of a piece vs completeness of a set of recordings.  For example, the above Music & Arts set has 13 cds from the Festival.  There is a Vol. II with 12 more.  The first volume even contends that it has 6 hours of unreleased music.  Here is where I struggle the most.  Keep buying the same performances over and over in hope of finding the "best" sounding mastering of a piece, or buy something like the above, have a better variety historical music on the shelf, and then move on to other historical recordings.  Also, one might possibly lose out on some pieces because they are never picked up again, or if they are they are scattered across a new catalogue that would cost a lot of money to put together.  In short, I want BOTH!  

Another example would be this Sotkowski set:

Here is my post in the "Recordings Considered":

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=126797

Here is Que's:

Looks good, Bill! Transfers by Obert-Thorn and a fair amount of stuff I do not have myself from Stokowski's Philadelphia period, wich was his hayday IMO.

Q

Now, and I do not think I am talking out of turn, but if Que does not have some of this on his shelf AND it has Obert-Thorn tinkering with it, then it may be very difficult to piece together, if that is it all possible, at this time.  So shuld M&A seem a decent choice to me, or do I try to scrap some of this together from Pearl or wait for an Opus Kura or Melodyia release, which, of course, will happen as soon as I buy this set?

Definitely a high wire act with my budget. 

[George]

In the Casals case, Bill, how is the sound on the Music and Arts set? Considering the age of the recordings and the fact that they are live, of course.

My feeling on upgrading sound is that I only upgrade when I hear things that annoy me in the recording. The veiled sound of the EMI stuff, for example.

When buying for the first time, I go with labels and mastering engineers that I trust first. If only one issue of a particular recording exists and I want it, I buy it regardless of label, for it may never get released in better sound. Plus, we never really know just how good the source is anyway. 

[Bogey]

In the Casals case, Bill, how is the sound on the Music and Arts set? Considering the age of the recordings and the fact that they are live, of course.

Have it playing on my Bose soup cans as I type.  And the dates vary on this set as well.  All mid-50's, up to 1958, I believe.  I believe their is some noise reduction used.  More say than than a typical Pearl recording.  Coughs from the crowd and other noises still present.  However, is it noise reduction or is it the source and the date of these recordings....or all!?  In quiet moments, some hiss, but difficult to detect at times.  Has to be a filter on this set.....Que?  Let me dig through the liner notes a bit and see if they revel anything.

When buying for the first time, I go with labels and mastering engineers that I trust first. If only one issue of a particular recording exists and I want it, I buy it regardless of label, for it may never get released in better sound. Plus, we never really know just how good the source is anyway. 

BINGO!

[George]

Have it playing on my Bose soup cans as I type.  And the dates vary on this set as well.  All mid-50's, up to 1958, I believe.  I believe their is some noise reduction used.  More say than than a typical Pearl recording.  Coughs from the crowd and other noises still present.  However, is it noise reduction or is it the source and the date of these recordings....or all!?  In quiet moments, some hiss, but difficult to detect at times.  Has to be a filter on this set.....Que?  Let me dig through the liner notes a bit and see if they revel anything.

The piano is always the thing that signals NR for me. Those upper notes on the keyboard sound dull when NR is used. I have listened to so much piano that I can tell within seconds if NR was used, especially on my stereo at home.

I recall a person over at SH that said when he was testing SQ of recordings, he would pull out his guitar and strum for awhile. This got his ears used to the sound of a real instrument in his listening environment. Then he'd put on the CD and see how it compared.

[Bogey]

The piano is always the thing that signals NR for me. Those upper notes on the keyboard sound dull when NR is used. I have listened to so much piano that I can tell within seconds if NR was used, especially on my stereo at home.

I was using a Bach (WTC) piece as played by Horszowski ('56) when I made my above deductions.  Listening to a Pearl '46 piece from another cd right now and the music is much more revealing, IMO.  I suspect some "foul play" on the M&A set and will point the finger at one Maggie Payne, though there seems to be others.

[Bogey]

Quoting myself from the Purchase Thread:

If you enjoy analysis of historical recordings' transfers, then this article is for you:
http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/p/prl09261a.php

The Rach is from the studio in 1946 while the rest is from the Bowl on two dates in 1945. 

Listening to this piece right now and come to find that it may not be a studio recording.  Obert-Thorn notes that he added some reverberation to counteract the dry acoustic of the open-air performing venue.  Therefore, it could not be from the studio!

I was able to find this:

Rachmaninov: The Isle of the Dead [live broadcast 23 July 1946] Tchaikovsky: Symphony #6 "Pathétique" [recorded 25 July 1946] Solitude (arr. Stokowski) [rec. 25 July 1945] Marche Slav. [rec. 1 August 1945] Hollywood Bowl Symphony Orchestra. I reviewed this disc on the Maestrino site some time ago but for some reason I forgot to list it at the time. As I said at that time, this disc is worth it just for the Rachmaninov. Stokowski never recorded it and this live performance is everything you would expect from The Maestro. The deep, rich bass line underpins the music, giving it the dark, brooding effect it so needs. The "Pathétique" is one of my favorite pieces of music and Stokowski is one of the best interpreters. He recorded it with the All-American Youth Orchestra (will somebody please give us that one?) this performance and then during the Indian Summer of his life with the London Symphony Orchestra (released in the Stokowski Stereo Collection). There is also a live performance with the London Symphony Orchestra on Music and Arts 944, coupled with the 4th, 5th and the 1812. Like much that Stokowski recorded in Hollywood the music all has a slight MGM or Disney-Fantasia quality to it. This is certainly not bad in the Isle, but just a bit over-the-top in the Tchaikovsky Symphony. Nobody does the March Slav better than Stokowski and here, again, the Stokowski Sound of this time suits the music to a tee. The "recorded" sound, from Columbia, was never as deep and rich as for RCA, but it is much better here than in the LP incarnation. The "Pathétique" is also on the CALA label (506 coupled with Strauss' Tod und Verklärung with the New York City Symphony from 1944) that some people find to be a better transfer. Regardless, you should have both discs. GEMM 9261

He performed this piece more than once:
http://www.classical.net/music/guide/society/lssa/concertregister.php#1940

,but according to the liner notes only recorded this one time in '46.

[Coopmv]

Many thanks to George for introducing me to those excellent MOT remastered CD's on Naxos Historical, from Schnabel Beethoven Piano Sonatas to Cortot Chopin and the Karajan Wagner Meistersinger.  I have yet to listen to the Meistersinger set.  I never knew recordings made in the 1930's can sound so good.

[Bogey]

Just got finished with a comparison of the same performance of the 1st movement from LvB's #4 (27.06.1943) on these two labels, Music & Arts and Melodiya :

 

I kept all the controls on neutral and had the mono engaged.  For these ears, no overly discernable difference, which was truly surprising based on others' experiences with these two labels.  For more acute listeners, you may find an edge to the Melodiya, and it may be a source by source deal for each symphony, in which this case we have a draw.  Either way, if you enjoy coughing in the background this performance is for you as there is plenty at the start.

[George]

I kept all the controls on neutral and had the mono engaged.  For these ears, no overly discernable difference, which was truly surprising based on others' experiences with these two labels.

Seeing as I do not have any of those Melodiya CDs, I am very glad to read this.

Either way, if you enjoy coughing in the background this performance is for you as there is plenty at the start.

[Bogey]

I believe it can fluctuate depending on the performance in question.  However, neither have that Pearl "transperancy" I enjoy, though the background noise is more resolute in the Pearl recordings and those are cd to cd as well.  Fun stuff!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I kept all the controls on neutral and had the mono engaged.  For these ears, no overly discernable difference, which was truly surprising based on others' experiences with these two labels. 

Interesting, but not totally surprising. For me all the hype about these Melodiya transfers came crashing down the moment I read they weren't taken from original sources.

AFAIK, Tahra is still the only label to have released many of those old Furtwängler performances using the original tapes. That is, before the tapes evidently became too fragile to handle anymore. So it's a fair bet that Tahra will continue to reign as the front-runner in the Furtwängler transfer sweepstakes into the foreseeable future.

And to me Music & Arts has never really offended as much as it evidently does other folks. Yes, it has its ups and downs just like any other label but by-and-large I like what they do. I admit part of my affection is sentimental because early on (early 90s) when poor quality pirates ruled M&A emerged as one of the first labels to really take an interest in producing high-quality transfers. I mean they were miles ahead of the pack and earned my respect quickly.

Not to mention an entire boatload of recorded material - from air-checks to bootlegs - made its recordings debut on M&A. In that respect alone they were ground-breakers. And even with the emergence of other quality historical labels there never really seemed to be much in the way of overlap. So M&A still maintains its exclusivity in certain material.

Anyway, just thinking out loud...   

[Bogey]

Thanks for posting, Don.  I still have found that I prefer Pearl over M&A, but like you said and I eluded to earlier, M&A just seem to have a "gob" of stuff and they package it in chunks that become irresistable.  Pearl you end up spending $20+ for each cd these days.  However, so far, I would say that when it comes to the Melodiya releases snap them up as well as they are at the very least as good as M&A of the two I have heard.  And if they fill some holes that other labels have missed, or are OOP, then everyone wins with them.  Tahra  seems a bit trickier to come by(?).  Is that a fair statement?  If true this factor cannot be ignored.  Some of the Furtwangler recordings go as high as $50 $25 a disc on Ebay.  Also, the Opus Kura label, as Que pointed out to me, seems to be another option that needs continued exploration.  The Casals cds of the Bach Suites is very well done by them.  In the end, lots of options....guess we are fortunate for that.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Thanks for posting, Don.  I still have found that I prefer Pearl over M&A, but like you said and I eluded to earlier, M&A just seem to have a "gob" of stuff and they package it in chunks that become irresistable.

Yes, that's M&A in a nutshell, Bill.

Tahra  seems a bit trickier to come by(?).  Is that a fair statement?  If true this factor cannot be ignored.  Some of the Furtwangler recordings go as high as $50 $25 a disc on Ebay.

Yes, I'd say that's a fair statement. What's ironic though is that Tahra used to be as easy to come by as anything out there. But as you've noted they seemingly are in short supply - and in high demand - nowadays.

I had never really expected this from Tahra. I guess I thought of them as something akin to Music & Arts, European style - that is to say, seemingly with longevity on their side and a thirst for seeking out rare material. So what's the scoop with Tahra? Are they still in operation? Their website seems to be up and running...

Also, the Opus Kura label, as Que pointed out to me, seems to be another option that needs continued exploration.  The Casals cds of the Bach Suites is very well done by them.  In the end, lots of options....guess we are fortunate for that.

Yes, it's definitely something of a golden age as far as access to historical material. Gurn's idea of tracking performance styles of Beethoven's 9th - using older recordings taken at regular intervals - is fascinating. Our modern age makes all this possible.

[Bogey]

Another historical recording site recommended by George:

http://www.marstonrecords.com/html/catalogue.htm

[George]

Another historical recording site recommended by George:

http://www.marstonrecords.com/html/catalogue.htm

Yes, Bill, Marston is one of the very best labels currently producing CDs. They got a lot of exclusive historical stuff. Excellent quality transfers by Ward Marston, extensive liner notes, even the paper they use for the booklet is high quality. They are my new favorite label. 

I was on the phone this morning with Marston records. All 4 of the released Hofmann titles are currently available. They repressed volumes 5 and 6 due to high demand. Currently, these are only available through Marston directly but the good news is that they are only $32 each. I've seen these sell for more than three times that over at amazon, so pianophiles should take notice. Marston has one to one personal customer service and take orders over the phone.

[George]

Could I ask one of our British members to please contact Pavilion Records and ask if the Pearl company is still functioning?

Here's a link to their website and phone number:

http://www.pavilionrecords.com/

Thanks! 

[Bogey]

Could I ask one of our British members to please contact Pavilion Records and ask if the Pearl company is still functioning?

Here's a link to their website and phone number:

http://www.pavilionrecords.com/

Thanks!  

Looks like they are under distributed by
Harmonia Mundi (UK) Ltd. (for GEMM/GEM/SHE and OPAL)
www.harmoniamundi.com email:info@harmoniamundi.com

http://www.pavilionrecords.com/html/foreign/foreign_frm.html

[Bogey]

Been a year and a half since they updated their web page as well.

[George]

Looks like they are under distributed by
Harmonia Mundi (UK) Ltd. (for GEMM/GEM/SHE and OPAL)
www.harmoniamundi.com email:info@harmoniamundi.com

http://www.pavilionrecords.com/html/foreign/foreign_frm.html

Good to know, Bill! 

By the way, I know where folks can download many of the OOP historical stuff in lossless format. People can PM me for info and I'll be happy to oblige.