What's wrong with Harry Potter?

[Florestan]

I think in general there has been a misunderstanding, on both our parts.

So it seems. 

So, is there a point where the age of the "boy" ceases to be an issue? At 20, 25, 30? What if the "adult" is 18 years old?

The point where the age is no more an issue is of course 18, which is the age of "legal adulthood".

I'm not certain I'd call it immoral. I'd settle for irresponsible.

I would agree it's irresponsible, but I'd stick with its immorality as well.

I don't know if they possess this level. As you say, it varies between individuals, the older the person, the more likely he or she has reached that level.

So we're again on agreement.

I don't know what you've been taught in sex-ed

Oh, I haven't had anything even remotely related to sex-ed in school. I grew up in Communist Romania where sexuality was regarded as a strictly procreative bussiness meant to provide the society with new members. Everything else in matters sexual was just "bourgeois decadence'.

Sex-ed --- or indeed any education other than the one in schools which was aimed mainly at indoctrinating the yongsters into "good communists" ---was a private matter.

This one, however, I would have to object to. I don't seriously think this is being taught, but if it is, it's clearly irresponsible on the part of school. People need to learn to rein in their emotions, at times; doing whatever you feel good about at a particular time is a recipe for disaster.

We find ourselves once again in agreement.

Of course I'd have to agree with this one. However, it is the school's responsibility to ensure that the facts are genuine, and the viewpoints thoroughly discussed.

And once again! I would add, in this case, that the facts and view points must be commensurate with the pupils' capacity of understanding.

Ok, then. Let me summarize what I conclude from our exchange of ideas.

We might be in disagreement about the basis of morality but not about its practical applications. We both regard paedophilia as not only reprehensible, but also a crime that must be legally prosecuted. We both stress the importance of responsiblity and restraint and we agree that sexual conduct must be associated with psychological and intellectual maturity, if sex is to be enjoyed in a healthy and edifying manner.

Now, if you too think this is so, then I believe it's high-time to stop here discussing this issue. We've been highjack-ing the poor thread for too long, as you said.

[Daidalos]

Now, if you too think this is so, then I believe it's high-time to stop here discussing this issue. We've been highjack-ing the poor thread for too long, as you said.

Yes, I agree. It's been a good discussion, thank you.

[Florestan]

Yes, I agree. It's been a good discussion, thank you.

Thank you, too. I'm glad we could have a civil and polite discussion.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

What's wrong with Harry Potter? Everything.  Awful, awful books. Can't believe I actually used to like them.

[Jo498]

I think the first 4 were very good and hugely entertaining (and I started reading them when I was 28 and began every new book on the day it was published...). The rest are weaker but still better than A LOT of fantasy out there (not restricted to stuff aimed at teenagers). E.g they are considerably better written than the "Hunger Games" (not fantasy but clearly aimed at teenagers (somewhat older than the Harry Potter readers)).

The HP are also much better than a lot of things I read with 10-12 in the early 1980s...

[North Star]

What's wrong with Harry Potter? Everything.  Awful, awful books. Can't believe I actually used to like them.

I think we're all better off reading Milton and Shakespeare instead of complaining about children's books.

[Karl Henning]

I respect Milton, and I'm glad we have him;  I don't know if I could bring myself to read any.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I respect Milton, and I'm glad we have him;  I don't know if I could bring myself to read any.

Well, Dr. Johnson in the 18th century wrote, "Paradise Lost is one of the books which the reader admires and puts down, and forgets to take up again. None ever wished it longer than it is."

I admit, I haven't read it or read in it for over 30 years, though I did teach a course in Milton when I was still in my college teaching days. But even so, you can just start with "Of man's first disobedience" and work your way to the end. You will find much to like and admire, I think.

Then again, Dr. Johnson never gave his opinion on Harry Potter. Harold Bloom has, and that fussy old lady didn't like Harry Potter either, or at least the one book he could bring himself to read.

I went to the Yale University bookstore and bought and read a copy of "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone." I suffered a great deal in the process. The writing was dreadful; the book was terrible. As I read, I noticed that every time a character went for a walk, the author wrote instead that the character "stretched his legs." I began marking on the back of an envelope every time that phrase was repeated. I stopped only after I had marked the envelope several dozen times. I was incredulous. Rowling's mind is so governed by cliches and dead metaphors that she has no other style of writing.

And there you have it. Aspiring novelists, watch carefully not to have your characters go for a walk, or if you do so, be sure they do not stretch their legs; otherwise you will bring great suffering to Harold Bloom.

[Karl Henning]

. . . But even so, you can just start with "Of man's first disobedience" and work your way to the end. You will find much to like and admire, I think.

Oh, I might just, one of these days.

[Jo498]

It's been years that I read those books but I think that the first 3 or 4 are well written for children's books.
I am not a native speaker but I read quite a bit in English, including "genre" books (SF, fantasy etc.) that will not win any style or prose prizes, and Harry Potter is above average in this respect. J. K. Rowling has published three or so "adult" books (basically a series of detective mysteries) that were reasonably well received. I read two of them and I think they are considerably weaker in style, atmosphere than the Harry Potter books.

"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."  C. S. Lewis

I am not fifty yet but I have adopted this maxim some time ago.

[knight66]

Quote from Dorothy Parker: 'This Is Not a Novel To Be Tossed Aside Lightly. It Should Be Thrown with Great Force.'

My wife and I read a couple of the books to my son. I could not get into them and took against them when I saw so many adults on my daily commute who were reading them, Kidults.

That was before electronic readers were at all common, yeah, back before the flood.

Mike

[(poco) Sforzando]

Quote from Dorothy Parker: 'This Is Not a Novel To Be Tossed Aside Lightly. It Should Be Thrown with Great Force.'

My wife and I read a couple of the books to my son. I could not get into them and took against them when I saw so many adults on my daily commute who were reading them, Kidults.

That was before electronic readers were at all common, yeah, back before the flood.

Mike

Yes, but that quote appeared in 1968 and it is not certain to which book it was applied.

I read each of the Potter books when it came out and then the whole sequence at one go some five years ago. I'll grant they're not of the highest literary merit, but Rowling seems to me highly successful in creating an imaginary world and in using a number of standard literary tropes (like the emergence and growth of the unlikely young hero) with considerable charm.

[knight66]

She was dead well before Potter arrived. I was not suggesting she criticised the Harry Potter books, though she would have done So if given half a chance.

Mike

[Jo498]

Rowling seems to me highly successful in creating an imaginary world and in using a number of standard literary tropes (like the emergence and growth of the unlikely young hero) with considerable charm.

I fully agree with that.
(Although I was somewhat disappointed by the last book and whereas a re-read some of the earlier ones while waiting for book 5, 6, 7 I have not revisited the series since 2007)
And as I already admitted that I read a certain amount of "genre fiction" (SF, fantasy, crime mystery) I can only repeat that HP fares rather well, even in the language and style department, compared to many others. (I am not going to check but I'd bet that the "stretch one's legs" thing is made up.)

[(poco) Sforzando]

I fully agree with that.
(Although I was somewhat disappointed by the last book and whereas a re-read some of the earlier ones while waiting for book 5, 6, 7 I have not revisited the series since 2007)
And as I already admitted that I read a certain amount of "genre fiction" (SF, fantasy, crime mystery) I can only repeat that HP fares rather well, even in the language and style department, compared to many others. (I am not going to check but I'd bet that the "stretch one's legs" thing is made up.)

I would have to get up from my desk, stretch my legs, and head to the bookshelves to find out. I seriously think the worst section in VII was Harry's long speech to Voldemort before he kills him; if I were Voldemort I might have died of boredom before HP got to the end. But there was also some nice writing in that book, especially the wedding scene as I recall (though to make sure, I'd have to get up, stretch my legs, etc.). And the lady does know how to create a set of characters and tell a good story.

[knight66]

I did not think they were awful. I just did not 'get' them; but was basically quite annoyed that on train and subway I was, for months each time, faced with lots of adults reading nothing else. Lots of excellent books must have had short shrift because of the HP phenomenon.

Mike

[(poco) Sforzando]

I did not think they were awful. I just did not 'get' them; but was basically quite annoyed that on train and subway I was, for months each time, faced with lots of adults reading nothing else. Lots of excellent books must have had short shrift because of the HP phenomenon.

Mike

I understood you. If it makes you feel any better, while commuting by train where I was working in New York City many years ago, I set myself a project to read all of Shakespeare. Took eight months altogether, but I did it.

But then, the HP books had not yet been published.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

The invincible wand is lazy writing, plain and simple. Clumsiest plot device ever to conveniently provide a way for our protagonist to defeat considerably more skilled wizard.

[jochanaan]

I confess I enjoyed the Harry Potter books.  Not great writing, perhaps, certainly not on the level of, say, The Lord of the Rings--a few too many exclamation points and capital letters for my taste--but good writing.

It's been suggested that the entire "Christian" controversy surrounding Harry Potter was touched off by a piece in The Onion.

As for the Dawkins factor: I myself was raised Christian and still call myself a Christian, yet I was in fact encouraged to study for myself and be open to other viewpoints.  I do not consider myself to have been "indoctrinated" at home.  In fact, I was a member of the Church of the Nazarene for about ten years, and they did try to indoctrinate me.  It didn't work. So simply raising a child in a Christian way is not child abuse or brainwashing.

[mc ukrneal]

The invincible wand is lazy writing, plain and simple. Clumsiest plot device ever to conveniently provide a way for our protagonist to defeat considerably more skilled wizard.

Actually, I thought that part quite clever and not as predictable as many alternatives...