Celtic influence in Beethoven's and Dvorak's symphonies?

[Ciel_Rouge]

As mentioned here:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/739047

Also, I have come across a view that both Beethoven's and Dvorak's symphonies were influenced by traditional Celtic melodies. Any comments on that?

[helios]

Balls, I say!

[mn dave]

That made me laugh. 

[Ciel_Rouge]

Balls, I say!

May I kindly request that you elaborate on that, sir? 

[CRCulver]

Also, I have come across a view that both Beethoven's and Dvorak's symphonies were influenced by traditional Celtic melodies. Any comments on that?

Musicologists repeatedly remind people that there is no such thing as "Celtic music", this being a term devised by marketing to cover disparate and in some cases unrelated musical styles. So, there are no "traditional Celtic melodies".

[Ten thumbs]

As the Celts lived somewhere in Central and Eastern Europe, maybe.

[Mark G. Simon]

Beethoven was commissioned to arrange a book of Irish and Scottish folk tunes for voice with piano trio accompaniment, so he knew the music. The finale of the 7th symphony is supposed to be based on an Irish tune, and given the structure of the theme, this seems plausible. The theme itself is binary, with repeats of both sections, the way dance music tends to be, and the way it is embedded in the music, within a sonata exposition which involves a larger repeat, is unique in Beethoven. I know of no other instance of repeats within repeats in his works, or in classical period music in general. This is a special case, engendered by the special nature of the material.

[Ciel_Rouge]

Thank you, the initial reactions made me think I had come across a taboo subject or something... As for the Celts themselves, I read a whole book about them:

Friedrich Schlette, Kelten zwischen Alesia und Pergamon

The book was not most recent, but in general it implied that the Celts used to inhabit the terrains corresponding to contemporary France and also mixed into the Roman population at some point. However, they also settled in the British Isles and the Irish people are believed by the book's author to be the descendants of Celts. Therefore, is it entirely true that their musical heritage was lost? Some motives and melodies must have been incorporated into Irish traditional music. Also, the book mentions a typically Celtic instrument called the carnyx:



And here you can hear the sound and see it in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efEowt6HCok

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

As the Celts lived somewhere in Central and Eastern Europe, maybe.

In fact Celts inhabited what are now the Czech Lands for a few centuries before the Slavs arrived. The very name "Bohemia" for example, comes from a Celtic tribe, the Boii. The Czechs have never used the name Bohemia (they call it Čechy).

So who knows, there may be a link to Dvořák, bubbling up from the ground somewhere 

[Brian]

I know of no other instance of repeats within repeats in his works, or in classical period music in general.

Does the scherzo of the Ninth Symphony qualify?

[Mark G. Simon]

Does the scherzo of the Ninth Symphony qualify?

You must have a different edition of this score. Mine has no repeats within repeats such as are in the finale of the 7th.