WINE - Red, White, or Other - Discussed Here!

[The new erato]

I wish I knew.

I have a Smith Woodhouse LBV 2003 lined up for the sweet stuff, as well as a Mugnier Nuits Saint Georges Marechales 2009 for red. Also a Legras Presidence Grand Cru Vieilles Vignes Brut 2005 for the bubbly stuff, but there will be more when the inspiration hits me.

I need my head examined. I just looked into the cellar and I have a Langoa Barton 201 and a Moulin- Touchais Coteaux de Layon 1971 in the Christmas que as well. Tonight as a prelude, a Georg Mosbacker Riesling Pechstein 201,. a really pleasant Pfalz wine. 

[jlaurson]

Since my better half is on tour in China with an orchestra, I'll see to seek out a buddy in town and bribe him for company with my tuna-salmon-troud/charr tartare and one or two Austrian "méthode champenoise" sparkling wines or one of the better bottles of white from the cellar I finally built out of wine-bricks. Perhaps one of my favorite wines, period... a "Chardonnay" (sic., not "Morillon", as one would expect) from South-East Styrian Gross which was, at least on those years (2011, 2012) produced only for two restaurants... which cured me once-and-for-all from my US-incurred hatred of Chardonnay (caramel swill, in the price range I was back then able to afford; <$20) and which I magically got my hands on for two boxes of 12 each. (Not many of which still exist.) Or I'll "borrow" a bottle I gifted to said better half, to bring a South-East Styrian (great region, that!!) Cuvee from Polz which was a date-wine of ours and, by good fortune more than previous knowledge, turned out to be a real corker. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

[Bogey]

This uncorked in 1 hour:

[SonicMan46]

This uncorked in 1 hour:

Bill - enjoy!  I've visited that winery in the Napa Vly several times decades ago (I remember on the first visit the founder Charlie Wagner and his young son then, Chuck were managing the tasting room) - I bought their cabernet for many years until it (and many other of my early favs) priced out of what I was willing to pay - Dave

[jlaurson]

I picked up a couple Austrian Champagnes (i.e. méthode champenoise i.e. méthode traditionnelle i.e. klassische flaschengärung), the first of which was a blanc de noir and very lovely and perfectly forgettable. [Schloss Fels brut Blanc de Noirs, 13,-] The second one was from a vintner that makes five or six single variety champagnes... of which I took the sauvignon blanc. terrific. very noticeable fruit and flavor; very dry if, I don't think, quite brut... and over and over again a real distinction. yesterday i tried the riesling version and ditto... the same goodness in a different way... perhaps a little more ingratiating (neither good nor bad), a little less adult, and so darn quaffable that I finished the bottle before I knew it, while my helpmeet had already gone to bed. The only thing these two didn't have is that nice yeastiness that you get in a good (and even then not every) champagne; other than that, I find then on par if not superior to any quality cremont and champagne. Much, much better than Hochriegel (a popular Sekt in these parts) and better than Bründlmayer, the go-to famous premium Sekt of Austria. Steininger, is the name. Still very intrigued to try the Polz Sekt, though... since I cherish several of their wines quite a bit.

[Bogey]

Bill - enjoy!  I've visited that winery in the Napa Vly several times decades ago (I remember on the first visit the founder Charlie Wagner and his young son then, Chuck were managing the tasting room) - I bought their cabernet for many years until it (and many other of my early favs) priced out of what I was willing to pay - Dave

Indeed, Dave.  My friend bought me this bottle back in 2009.  We went over there for dinner last night and he was pleased to see the bottle.  He decanted it for an hour or so, but I would say it was the last glass where it was at its best, as the first glass seemed a little uneventful.  Either way, very nice stuff and here is a shot of the dinner we paired it with:

[mc ukrneal]

You reminded me we had a wonderful Chianti on NY's eve. It was the Tesora della Regina Chianti Classico 2012, which we bought at Total Wine. It was excellent, even more so considering the $13 price tag. I liked it so much, I went back and bought a case.

[Bogey]

I'll have to try to find some at my end.

[Sergeant Rock]

So, what are you pairing with Holiday dinners, folks?

We drank wine during the holidays but nothing special. Nothing reportable anyway. But last night we had an excellent red from Philipp Kuhn, the Pzälzer vintner based in Laumersheim: his 2011 Luitmar, a powerful and spicey cuvée, a blend of various popular European varietals (Sangiovese, Cabernet Sauvignon, Blaufränkisch (Lemberger) and St.Laurent). It worked beautifully with Mrs. Rock's delicious Kritharaki (lamb filet and cutlets, tomato sauce, feta and the rice-shaped noodles of course.)






Sarge

[jochanaan]

We drank wine during the holidays but nothing special. Nothing reportable anyway. But last night we had an excellent red from Philipp Kuhn, the Pzälzer vintner based in Laumersheim: his 2011 Luitmar, a powerful and spicey cuvée, a blend of various popular European varietals (Sangiovese, Cabernet Sauvignon, Blaufränkisch (Lemberger) and St.Laurent). It worked beautifully with Mrs. Rock's delicious Kritharaki (lamb filet and cutlets, tomato sauce, feta and the rice-shaped noodles of course.)






Sarge

Your description alone makes me wish I could have had a sip!  Skaal!

[The new erato]

Just back from a stint with the usual gang, Latour 78, Lafitte 78, Fabien Coche-Bouillot Batard-Montrachet 2005, Clos Rougeard 2005, various old Fritz Haag Auslese, Clos de Goisses 1990 (champagne), a flight of Nebbiolo 1996 (Andrea Oberto Barolo, Produttori Barbaresco Ovello and Montestefano) and various others, let me sleep....................

[Brian]

Just back from a stint with the usual gang, Latour 78, Lafitte 78, Fabien Coche-Bouillot Batard-Montrachet 2005, Clos Rougeard 2005, various old Fritz Haag Auslese, Clos de Goisses 1990 (champagne), a flight of Nebbiolo 1996 (Andrea Oberto Barolo, Produttori Barbaresco Ovello and Montestefano) and various others, let me sleep....................

Good lord...!

I am sipping on Dom. Dupeuble Beaujolais '14, light and refreshing with a careful measure of acidity - what you want in gamay. Nouveau really does give Beaujolais a bad name...

[The new erato]

Good lord...!

I am sipping on Dom. Dupeuble Beaujolais '14, light and refreshing with a careful measure of acidity - what you want in gamay. Nouveau really does give Beaujolais a bad name...

I do agree on Beaujoais. Do a lot of Beaujolais Cru for daily drinking. I really need some sleep now.

[The new erato]

Just back from a stint with the usual gang, Latour 78, Lafitte 78, Fabien Coche-Bouillot Batard-Montrachet 2005, Clos Rougeard 2005, various old Fritz Haag Auslese, Clos de Goisses 1990 (champagne), a flight of Nebbiolo 1996 (Andrea Oberto Barolo, Produttori Barbaresco Ovello and Montestefano) and various others, let me sleep....................

And I forgot the Trimbach Gewurz Vendange Tardive 76 that was a real stunner. Now finishing off a bottle of Guigal Cote-Rotie La Landonne 2007 and a Chave Hermitage 2007, leftovers from a major Rhone tasting tonight. And on Saturday with my wife a solitary Giovanno Rosso Barolo Ceretta 99 that was in a perfect place right now.

[Brian]

So, uh, anybody in Bergen hiring writers who don't speak Norwegian?

[The new erato]

We don't always speak so well Norwegiam after wine tastings either.

[jlaurson]

So, uh, anybody in Bergen hiring writers who don't speak Norwegian?

Possibly Nynorsk, to boot.

In my time in Norway, I did an as-extensive-as-I-could study of the offerings of the dreaded, loathed, hated, abhorred Vinmonopolet -- the state alcohol monopoly for anything >4.75%%  -- and concluded that if you have fine tastes and a normal budget, you are, not surprisingly, screwed. Let's take a random example: Leitz 1-2-3 Riesling... a large wine-maker of mostly budget-white wines (this particular one won the favor of Jancis Robinson, for what it's worth). At €6.50 a real entry-level white wine, well possibly very decent or good, but hardly special. In Norway, you have to fork over a whopping 150 NK, or €15.50. It takes the decency right back out of that wine. Ansgar Clüsserath Riesling vom Schiefer 2013 (a very good wine if you give it a year) ~€17.50 in Norway, <€10,- in the normal world. (Which makes this one a good deal, actually.)

And so the list could go on, and the less a wine costs, the greater the markup (because it goes by alcohol, not price), driving people to drink lower quality wines (which doesn't help the already f-ed up relation with alcohol that the citizens of most highly regulating countries/societies feature) over decent ones. However, if you are in the business for reaaaaalllly nice wines, or in any case expensive ones, you might be in luck: As the sole buyer, the purchasing power of Vinmonopolet is just about unsurpassed, so when the great estates sell, the state monopolists are right there, and get a good deal which they pass on. So at about $300,- a bottle (USD now, although this fluctuates along with the currencies; the USD has appreciated considerably vs. the NKR in the last few years), there's a point-break-even, where buying at the Vinmonopolet doesn't hurt your wallet anymore than it would hurt elsewhere, and above you are getting deals. This of course is great for fat-cats and wine connoisseurs and one reason why, once you reach a certain level of affluence, influence-havers don't particularly mind the Vinmonopolet and how it screws the regular folks.

A half bottle of Chateau d Yquem 2011 gets there, but not quite yet: ~€165,- which isn't crazy, by comparison.
A full bottle of Leroy Meursault 1er Cru Les Perrieres 2011: ~€270, which is about market average.
Ch. Lafleur 2012: ~€525 Not exactly a deal, but below average... and finally, if you are in the market for a
Petrus 2012, then 9500 NK, even at the modest exchange rate still below €1k, is a steal! 

[The new erato]

Petrus 2012, then 9500 NK, even at the modest exchange rate still below €1k, is a steal! 

A friend of mine (who were one of the Lafitte, Latour etc crowd above) bought a 12 bottle case of this and sold it in London for a cool profit of around 6000 USD.

Cheap wine is expensive in Norway, that's policy. Vinmonopolet doesn't screw anybody, their profit margins are pretty slim compared to the likes of a lot of UK and US merchants I can think of.

Lots of the wines I drink I get at equal or cheaper prices than abroad, if I can get them at all abroad. Last purchase a 6 pack of Musar 2008 at about the same price as in London (common price at London merchants seems around GBP 25 which translates to 315 NOK at todays rate and 330 NOK some few weeks ago, the Norwegian price is NOK 310), some Foillard 2014 Morgons which are not easy to find in Europe and some Pepiere Clisson that is equally scarce. No problem finding them here though and buying all that I wanted. When you consider that the alcohol related taxes in Norway, as well as the higher VAT, means that the Musar has a 70 NOK pr bottle disadvantage to UK prices, you will see the the"Vinmonoplet screws ordinary people" are pretty unfair. I would rather say we have a very efficient and cost effective system that compensates for the effects of wine taxation as soon as you get to a certain value pr bottle.

Consider also that a free bottle of wine brought into Norway and sold from an importer at no profit will cost around 70 NOK as a result of policy with neither the producer or importer or producer charging any money whatsoever and the monopoly charging around 1 GBP in flat overhead (and that you cannot get a pint of beer below GBP 6 anywhere) and you will see that you are mixing up criticism of politics with criticisms of business practices.

Edit: A quick check shows that the grapestore.com (a webshop) has the Jean Foillard Morgon Cote Du Py 2013 at GBP 21,43 (NOK 266 at todays rate); I bought the 2014 in a physical store for NOK 260. You can find it between 180 NOK (at a French shop, sales tax excluded) and 430 at various Merchants around the world. All in all the Norwegian price seem very fair to me, even disregarding the ca 50 NOK alcohol tax, pretty hefty VAT rate (25%) etc.

[jlaurson]

A friend of mine (who were one of the Lafitte, Latour etc crowd above) bought a 12 bottle case of this and sold it in London for a cool profit of around 6000 USD.

Cheap wine is expensive in Norway, that's policy. Vinmonopolet doesn't screw anybody, their profit margins are pretty slim compared to the likes of a lot of UK and US merchants I can think of.

I'm sorry, but that's wrong in the sense that it is quite deliberately misleading. Vinmonopolet's profit margins don't enter into it, since they are the state agency for the execution of the very policy that makes alcoholic drinks expensive and inconvenient to come by. So whether you take the tax siphoned off the wine to be going into Vinmonopolet (=the state's) pocket, or the state's pocket directly, claiming low profit margins for the administrative task of handling this ill-conceived, wholly failed, and counterproductive policy is beside the point. I'm not criticizing the Vinmonopolet for its business practices but its existence.

Lots of the wines I drink I get at equal or cheaper prices than abroad, if I can get them at all abroad. Last purchase a 6 pack of Musar 2008 at about the same price as in London (common price at London merchants seems around GBP 25 which translates to 315 NOK at todays rate and 330 NOK some few weeks ago, the Norwegian price is NOK 310), some Foillard 2014 Morgons which are not easy to find in Europe and some Pepiere Clisson that is equally scarce. No problem finding them here though and buying all that I wanted. When you consider that the alcohol related taxes in Norway, as well as the higher VAT, means that the Musar has a 70 NOK pr bottle disadvantage to UK prices, you will see the the"Vinmonoplet screws ordinary people" are pretty unfair. I would rather say we have a very efficient and cost effective system that compensates for the effects of wine taxation as soon as you get to a certain value pr bottle.

That's an outrageous misrepresentation of how the system works and a case of sweet lemons if I've ever seen one. Yes, a vast buyer has the chance to get good prices, much like Aldi/Hofer/TraderJoe's have, too. And since you cite examples and I trust you, yes, there are apparently examples where this does not lead to the detriment of the Norwegian consumer. So with a few rare wines, this is the case. And with 99.4% of all other wines, it isn't.

Consider also that a free bottle of wine brought into Norway and sold from an importer at no profit will cost around 70 NOK as a result of policy with neither the producer or importer or producer charging any money whatsoever and the monopoly charging around 1 GBP in flat overhead (and that you cannot get a pint of beer below GBP 6 anywhere) and you will see that you are mixing up criticism of politics with criticisms of business practices.

You totally lost me there. Except the last bit. I'm not mixing the two up in critiquing them, you are mixing them up in defending them. Vinmonopolet is politics, not business. It is precisely the politics that I criticize, not the business of executing the politics. But I see now where we are talking at cross purposes, above.

[The new erato]

Vinmonopolet is politics, not business. It is precisely the politics that I criticize, not the business of executing the politics. But I see now where we are talking at cross purposes, above.

That Vinmonopolet exists is a political decision. Within that confine, they run a business pretty darn well.  Deduct the politically decided taxes, and Norwegian prices are very competitive. That's all I'm saying. One don't like the fact that the monopoly exists? Fine. If the public is screwed by anyone, it's by the politicians that maintains the alcohol related taxes and the fact that we have this system, not by the "executive branch" carrying out the politics.

We are probably talking at cross purposes here as you say. I'm fine with us having a sales monopoly BTW; as for whether the taxes levied should be lower, I consider that quite another matter and I'm not sure if what you consider "screwing the public" is the taxes (since your post focused on prices) or us having a monopoly in the first place. BTW petrol is 10 USD a gallon here as well. That's a political decision as well (also known as screwing the public?), resulting in us having the largest fleet of electrical vehicles of any nation. I'm fine with democratically elected politicians actually implementing policy, as opposed to in some countries I could think of