WINE - Red, White, or Other - Discussed Here!

[North Star]

That Vinmonopolet exists is a political decision. Within that confine, they run a business pretty darn well.  Deduct the politically decided taxes, and Norwegian prices are very competitive. That's all I'm saying.

Yes, and the taxes would still be there if Norway let grocery stores sell wine.

[jlaurson]

That Vinmonopolet exists is a political decision. Within that confine, they run a business pretty darn well.  Deduct the politically decided taxes, and Norwegian prices are very competitive. That's all I'm saying.

Well, that's nothing to argue about. That's just the way it is. The difference is really that I see Vinmonopolet as an integral part of a policy (and thus my ire)... indeed, as the "short" for it (symbolic of it), and you don't.

Though, actually I still would disagree with one aspect... namely that the lack of competition and the strictures on closing times and location (!) are a damned nuisance (again, politically wanted)... 

Yes, and the taxes would still be there if Norway let grocery stores sell wine.

...which means that any liberalization would be welcome. Still, "if" Norway did that, the could just as well back off the entire failed policy which has made civilized wine-drinking a luxury habit and has done nothing to curb -- and most likely encourage -- weekend binge-drinking and an altogether not very healthy attitude to alcohol. (I'd rant the same way about Washington DC or other places in the US that have ludicrous, outdated, pseudo-moralistic laws in place that keep you from making proper crepes/pancakes with a beer, only because it's not the pre-ordained hour at which the state thinks one should be permitted to purchase an alcoholic beverage. 

[North Star]

If the Norwegian monopoly is anything like ours, the strictures on location are only a benefit, as they are located next to the grocery stores where people buy their food already. In smaller places where it's not profitable to keep a shop, they deliver by van to a shop. Also, the staff is well educated and know a great deal of the products they sell. I do think the monopoly system ought to be history, but it will be a shame when one can't get their customer service.

[The new erato]

Well, that's nothing to argue about. That's just the way it is. The difference is really that I see Vinmonopolet as an integral part of a policy (and thus my ire)... indeed, as the "short" for it (symbolic of it), and you don't.

That's OK, it's more a matter of what one considers parts of which system. I see Vinmonopolet as aquite good sales branch of a politically decided system.

Though, actually I still would disagree with one aspect... namely that the lack of competition and the strictures on closing times and location (!) are a damned nuisance (again, politically wanted)... 

And that's a fair point as well. Selling swill in supermarkets are probably more efficent, while fine wine stores would probably have more overhead for a pretty limited sales volume. That is certainly the way things seems to be going in the UK that has a market 15 times as large as the Norwegian.

[jlaurson]

And that's a fair point as well. Selling swill in supermarkets are probably more efficent, while fine wine stores would probably have more overhead for a pretty limited sales volume. That is certainly the way things seems to be going in the UK that has a market 15 times as large as the Norwegian.

Well, I can see an argument to be made that in a way, Vinmonopolet, with its staff, is effectively a subsidy for connoisseur consumers in that it offers, at the expense of those who would be just as happy with swill, well stocked shelves in better-than-could-be-otherwise-expected locations.

Except I don't buy it. Supermarkets sell what is bought. You voice in essence not a vote of non-confidence in supermarkets but in consumers. You might be right, but things are changing. What's happened to supermarkets over the last 20 years is nothing short of miraculous. It's all (on the surface at any rate; don't get me started on a "BIO-is-good" argument :-)) environmentally conscious, quality-concerned, localized (another honorable-idea-turned-stupidity but in its symbolic value not so bad) and you can get superb wines, local and beyond, in every better supermarket in Germany or Austria. Granted, I don't spend much time in the real boonies, where a Vinmonopolet might stick out for its quality, because the alternatives are horrid... but for those who like good wines in remote places where the market doesn't support a dedicated store (and it's not like Vinmonopolets are sprouting out of the ground; it was an absurd hike for me even in West Oslo to get to the nearest good one), they can make use of the marvelous internet.

In short: I trust in customers educating themselves, becoming more quality conscious... and the market delivers, without fail, where it is allowed to do so.

[The new erato]

Not on. I beileve alcohol has a significant social cost that need to be reflected in the prices and distribution under some kind of control. Simple as that. In addition I think the Norwegian market for fine wine is too small to sustain the kind of supply you see in major European cities. In fact the monopoly has become a kind of guarantee for democratic distribution of goods whose access is very limited in many markets. 

[Brian]

What's happened to supermarkets over the last 20 years is nothing short of miraculous. It's all (on the surface at any rate; don't get me started on a "BIO-is-good" argument :-)) environmentally conscious, quality-concerned, localized (another honorable-idea-turned-stupidity but in its symbolic value not so bad) and you can get superb wines, local and beyond, in every better supermarket in Germany or Austria.

Checking in from a "middle America" perspective here. Our "big-box" grocery stores are mostly mediocre-to-poor in their wine supply, but the change, as you say, is still massive and near-miraculous. Even at my local discount grocery, I can find quality red wines from California, Oregon, and Washington (quality whites are a little more challenging), and even some very good bottles of, e.g. Willamette pinot or Columbia Valley bordeaux blends. Meanwhile, the higher-end grocery chains being rolled out around America can have truly excellent selections. No, I'm never going to see (m)any of the things you or Erato are drinking - certainly none of the great, cellared stuff Erato brings to parties - but aside from when reading this thread  I don't feel like I'm missing out.

Certain chains (e.g. Total Wine and Whole Foods) rely too heavily on exclusive own-label wines (or re-labeled wines), making sourcing hard to understand, but others make it much easier to find better wine than my parents' generation usually enjoyed.

[jlaurson]

Not on. I beileve alcohol has a significant social cost that need to be reflected in the prices and distribution under some kind of control. Simple as that. In addition I think the Norwegian market for fine wine is too small to sustain the kind of supply you see in major European cities. In fact the monopoly has become a kind of guarantee for democratic distribution of goods whose access is very limited in many markets.

Wow, you really have drunk from the statist cool aid. (I love your taste in music and your posts here, btw., so please don't think less of me for disagreeing vehemently with you, on this issue.) Should food also be controlled, for a guarantee for democratic distribution of such vital goods? Or music? Or cars? It's simply nonsense. All the state does is control (which you seem to think is beneficial) and make it more expensive for everyone except, occasionally interested minorities.  It's not like the state couldn't continue Vin"monopolet", but simply strike the monopoly bit. It'd be very easy to prove the defenders of the alcohol monopoly wrong.

But I don't expect that from a country that cherishes a quasi-monopoly on milk and butter, for heavens' sake.

As per the social cost: I would argue that the restrictions are not only not helpful in lowering the social costs of alcohol addiction/abuse(alcohol itself is not a problem, surely), but it actually causes them. Norway seems proof, as is American college life... where sheltered kids are suddenly left with something rare, long-forbidden, and therefore desirable... and where getting drunk for its own sake seems appealing. You simply don't have that, to that extent, at the same levels of education, in countries with a liberal attitude towards drink.

(Then again, you could probably make the same argument about drugs (not counting nicotine, alcohol, caffeine as such), and there I'd feel squeamish myself. But yet then again, we haven't examples where we are shown that this would work perfectly fine, so I've got an excuse. :-) )

Certain chains rely too heavily on exclusive own-label wines (or re-labeled wines)...

I find that annoying, just as I have an (irrational?) dislike of too-big, mass-market catering wineries, even though they probably make some very decent wines. At the local SPAR(s), meanwhile, I've discovered some very nifty wines and, very much to my surprise, even a friend's wine whose got his tiny little vineyard just a bike-hike outside of town (and technically still within), and from whom I have only ever bought direct, not being sure if it even was sold on the market. And there his wine is, being sold in a mega-chain... but only one of its branches. Really did something in further motivating me to try out some of the selections they have. (They also have a good online shop, not that would help you in Texas.)

P.S. Liquor (=wine) shopping in Fargo and even DC used to be a pain in the ass... although in the latter case it was largely a problem of budget and in the former a matter of, erhm... creatively enhanced identification issues.

[mc ukrneal]

Not on. I beileve alcohol has a significant social cost that need to be reflected in the prices and distribution under some kind of control. Simple as that. In addition I think the Norwegian market for fine wine is too small to sustain the kind of supply you see in major European cities. In fact the monopoly has become a kind of guarantee for democratic distribution of goods whose access is very limited in many markets. 

What it does is make the wine more expensive (as per your earlier post) for those who have the least to spend. Those taxes (in other countries at least) can go to the general budget and are not necessarily used to combat problems raised by drinking. And there are many small markets that have no problem sustaining supply, especially for things like alcohol, in a free market system.

I don't believe (as there is much evidence they work poorly) in monopolies like that or this very odd term 'democratic distribution'. Free markets do this just fine all around the world (in very rural settings too), especially with the internet today.  However, as this topic is getting serious, perhaps we should discuss it over a glass of wine!

[The new erato]

What it does is make the wine more expensive (as per your earlier post) for those who have the least to spend.

Yes it does. As all fixed price increments does. Thats's what it's intended to do; and I do believe that free markets tend to underprice the externalities of many commodities, which make a laughing stock of the whole principle of supply = demand and Adam Smith's invisible hand.

I don't believe (as there is much evidence they work poorly) in monopolies like that or this very odd term 'democratic distribution'. Free markets do this just fine all around the world (in very rural settings too), especially with the internet today.  However, as this topic is getting serious, perhaps we should discuss it over a glass of wine!

Again; have you seen the food selection in Norwegian supermarkets? And maybe the developments in US supermarkets are positive (as per Brian), take a look at the forum on wine-pages.com to see what's happening in the UK, it's a fact that the basic selections are far less limited than 20 years ago. I have travelled extensively in Europe, and I challenge anybody to visit a German or French or Italian town with 20.000 inhabitants and find a wine selection as good as in a similarly sized Norwegian town.

As for food OTOH - distributed by the free market in Norway, I only wish I could wallow in a fraction of the selection I can find in those cities! You all tend to disregard the fact that distribution chains, market size, centralization and demand is very different in different markets. 

Anyway, since a large portions of Norwegians are extremely happy with this bad, inefficient and libertyrestraining monopoly, I will live happily with it the rest of my lifetime. We don't even sell guns over the counter and find that fine as well....  It's all a matter of perspective, and why not be happy with a system that works?

[mc ukrneal]

Yes it does. As all fixed price increments does. Thats's what it's intended to do; and I do believe that free markets tend to underprice the externalities of many commodities, which make a laughing stock of the whole principle of supply = demand and Adam Smith's invisible hand.
Again; have you seen the food selection in Norwegian supermarkets? And maybe the developments in US supermarkets are positive (as per Brian), take a look at the forum on wine-pages.com to see what's happening in the UK, it's a fact that the basic selections are far less limited than 20 years ago. I have travelled extensively in Europe, and I challenge anybody to visit a German or French or Italian town with 20.000 inhabitants and find a wine selection as good as in a similarly sized Norwegian town.

As for food OTOH - distributed by the free market in Norway, I only wish I could wallow in a fraction of the selection I can find in those cities! You all tend to disregard the fact that distribution chains, market size, centralization and demand is very different in different markets. 

Anyway, since a large portions of Norwegians are extremely happy with this bad, inefficient and libertyrestraining monopoly, I will live happily with it the rest of my lifetime. We don't even sell guns over the counter and find that fine as well....  It's all a matter of perspective, and why not be happy with a system that works?

We're all happy in this thread! It must be the wine...

[Brian]

We're all happy in this thread! It must be the wine...

I'm thirsty after reading all this.

Here's what's waiting back home for me tonight:

Unti Vineyards - Fiano '14
Dry Creek Valley, CA

Winemaker notes: "This is only our third vintage making Fiano. We treated the winemaking similar to what we have done with Vermentino, Grenache Blanc and Picpoul. We lightly crushed the grapes and sent them directly to the press....Like many of the white wines found in Central and Southern Italy, our 2014 Fiano has fresh fruity aromas. The wine is dry, crisp and possesses the waxy richness we have come to love about Fiano. We are beginning to think Fiano has found a home here in the Dry Creek Valley." CT user review link

[mc ukrneal]

One thing I did notice at the store the other day was that every bottle I picked up (reds) seemed to have an alcohol content of 14% or 14.5%. One even had 15%. I don't remember seeing so many high levels of alcohol. Was it coincidence in the particular bottles I picked or have wines (particularly reds) been increasing a bit in alcohol content? I seem to remember most of them being 12.5% to 13.5% with the occasional 14%.

[Brian]

And so the list could go on, and the less a wine costs, the greater the markup (because it goes by alcohol, not price), driving people to drink lower quality wines (which doesn't help the already f-ed up relation with alcohol that the citizens of most highly regulating countries/societies feature) over decent ones. However, if you are in the business for reaaaaalllly nice wines, or in any case expensive ones, you might be in luck: As the sole buyer, the purchasing power of Vinmonopolet is just about unsurpassed, so when the great estates sell, the state monopolists are right there, and get a good deal which they pass on. So at about $300,- a bottle (USD now, although this fluctuates along with the currencies; the USD has appreciated considerably vs. the NKR in the last few years), there's a point-break-even, where buying at the Vinmonopolet doesn't hurt your wallet anymore than it would hurt elsewhere, and above you are getting deals. This of course is great for fat-cats and wine connoisseurs and one reason why, once you reach a certain level of affluence, influence-havers don't particularly mind the Vinmonopolet and how it screws the regular folks.

Cheap wine is expensive in Norway, that's policy. Vinmonopolet doesn't screw anybody, their profit margins are pretty slim compared to the likes of a lot of UK and US merchants I can think of.... I would rather say we have a very efficient and cost effective system that compensates for the effects of wine taxation as soon as you get to a certain value pr bottle.

By the way, this part bothers me. If Vinmonopolet is taxing by ABV, and using comparatively high taxes on cheap wine to pay for good bargains on ~300 EUR wine, that amounts to a regressive tax. The drinking habits of the working classes are, in effect, being used to subsidize the drinking habits of the wealthy.

For such "progressive" (by reputation) a country, having a regressive tax which punishes wine drinkers for their inability to afford Petrus is a strange policy.

[Brian]

One thing I did notice at the store the other day was that every bottle I picked up (reds) seemed to have an alcohol content of 14% or 14.5%. One even had 15%. I don't remember seeing so many high levels of alcohol. Was it coincidence in the particular bottles I picked or have wines (particularly reds) been increasing a bit in alcohol content? I seem to remember most of them being 12.5% to 13.5% with the occasional 14%.

Can I ask where in the world you live? The prevailing trend (many say, starting with Robert Parker and his notorious ratings) has been bigger, more alcohol, more muscular wines, at the expense of "finesse" wines. Another factor is climate change. But there are some smaller producers who are insistent about returning to 12% ABV reds and the like.

If you're in the USA, try ordering from the excellent Nalle Winery (CA) or Broc Cellars (CA) (the cab franc is 11.9%). Or, wherever you are, try to find top-quality Beaujolais!

[The new erato]

Of course this is neither about taste nor about the poor working man unable to afford decent stuff due to greedy taxation, it's about politics. The idea of a monopoly of any sort is rather strange, but regulating the sales of alcohol I find no stranger than ie selling guns over the counter. In my experience, the one idea works pretty well (in Norway that is, it is fully possible that it would work far worse in other circumstances), as for the other idea, you be the judge.

As for thirst, I just finished  a bottle of Audoin Marsannay Clos de Roy 2010 with my wife while watching an episode of Wallander on Netflix; that explained my absence....  . A pretty decent little Burgundy.

[mc ukrneal]

Can I ask where in the world you live? The prevailing trend (many say, starting with Robert Parker and his notorious ratings) has been bigger, more alcohol, more muscular wines, at the expense of "finesse" wines. Another factor is climate change. But there are some smaller producers who are insistent about returning to 12% ABV reds and the like.

If you're in the USA, try ordering from the excellent Nalle Winery (CA) or Broc Cellars (CA) (the cab franc is 11.9%). Or, wherever you are, try to find top-quality Beaujolais!

I live all over!   I know that alcohol levels are higher, but I don't always pay attention to that, especially if the wine is nicely priced. So I hadn't really put together that they had grown quite so much. But a few wines that were too bold for me- I noticed the high level of alcohol and then again when I went to buy wines I don't normally buy (because of a nice coupon I had).

Maybe this is the reason I have been buying more Beaujolais recently (and not realizing why). I stopped buying Cabernets at least 10 years ago too, so maybe that adds to it. I think I might have had 1-2 bottles from Bordeaux over that time.  Not sure if Pinots are quite as affected as they are more noted for their subtleties and finesse. That leaves Shiraz, which I like with spicy food, and Zins, which I never really bought much of for whatever reason. With Rioja , I expect something more robust. And Chianti is one I continue to buy a lot of (and super tuscans and several other Italians, but not usually some of the better known ones like Barolo or Barbaresco). So I may have hidden the change from myself as a result of my preferences.

[The new erato]

I hade some 15% whites last weekend (Viognier whites from Condrieu). 15% definitely was a tad too much.

[The new erato]

Another night with a bunch of friends, Chateau Grillet 2005 (very rare, minerally, floral and outstanding), Hermitage La Chapelle 98 (showing the problems at Jaboulet in the 90ies - not a touch on the fabulous 89 had a year ago), Barca Velha 85, Leoville-Poyferre 86 (velvety), Montevertine Riserva 95 (superb Chianti), Barolo Cannubi 2001 Briccho Boschis (mature and complex), Stags Leap 99, Sancerre La Grande Cote 96 Francois Cotat, white Beaucastel 98, Chidaine's Montlouis Les Bournais 09 Franc de Pied on ungrafted Chenin Blanc vines, a white Montelena Chardonnay where I don't remember the vintage, Baumard Savennieres Clos de Papillon (very complex and well balanced Chenin) 99 Churchill vintage port 77 from magnum, Domain Macle Chateau-Chalon 1999 (vin du Jaune) .... And a lovely Dom Perignon 96.

Good times. And the Montevertine was brought by Leif Ove Andsnes, who lives right up the road.....

[Bogey]

1985



Bought this back in 2011.  Fingers crossed that this is still good.