What is reasonable price for CDs?

[rickardg]

CDs cost nothing to make, so the price should depend upon the production. I'd say up to 5 dollars for the content, and 1 or 2 for the booklet, if there is one.

Well, Naxos disks go for $8-9 on amazon, I'm sure you can get them for less, not too far from The Six's estimate of $7. Since Naxos does well as far as I know and records a lot of new repertoire I'd say that it's a pretty reasonable estimate of a reasonable price.

Production cost is only one of the factors that make up the retail price.

Yes, and probably only a very small part of it. Recordable cds (with jewel cases) are about $0.80 for consumers and I can't imagine the labels pay more than that, even including pressing. The cost, as The Six pointed out, is probably almost all content and distribution.

Of course, I don't work at a record label either, but that doesn't automatically make my reasoning invalid. I'd love to be proven wrong by someone who does work at a label though...

[Todd]

Since Naxos does well as far as I know and records a lot of new repertoire I'd say that it's a pretty reasonable estimate of a reasonable price.

Really?  Naxos operates differently than most record companies, large and small.  According to Klaus Heymann, they pay all of their artists up-front performance fees and no residuals.  I'm not sure how many artists, especially better known ones, want part of such a deal.  They also tend to use less well-known orchestras.  I've yet to see the Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic, New York Philharmonic, etc on Naxos in new recordings.  (The Philharmonia has popped up on the label once or twice, but that may have been from poached recordings.)  Better known artists cost more, better venues cost more, better engineers cost more, and so on.  The major labels have possibly bloated distribution and marketing budgets, but since many small labels (BIS, Pentatone, etc) charge even more than the majors, there seems to be some similarities to the models.  Is Heymann right and all others wrong?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  That there are so many labels, some of them profitable (if only marginally), seems to indicate that some people at some of the companies know what they're doing and have come across a model that works.

I'd love to see detailed data on record companies operations (well, maybe just one or two, and then more condensed data), but that data will not be forthcoming.  As I noted in my original post, record prices are right in line with, and possibly lower than, where they should be compared to where they were 20+ years ago, not to mention where they were in the era of 78s.  People have greater access to cheaper music now than ever before, yet there are still complaints about price and ideas of what constitutes a fair price.  Somehow I don't think anyone on this forum knows what really goes into putting out recordings, myself obviously included, so comments about "fairness" or "reasonableness" comes across as whining by comparatively wealthy people discussing what are truly luxury items. 

[Bulldog]

You people are amazing. The topic asks what is reasonable for a CD to cost. That's what I gave.

Not really.  You gave a price that apparently fits in with what you want to pay.  That's the "demand" side of the equation, but keep in mind that other folks might have different ideas as to what is reasonable.  Put another way, the market determines price and is therefore a result of the forces of demand and supply (and of course, price elasticity).

[The Six]

I don't want to pay anything for them, but that's the price that I think fits the majority of records out there. We're all used to being ripped off by CD prices so much that some of us are convinced that those prices are justifiable. I think that the time of CDs being a "luxury" has passed.

[Todd]

I think that the time of CDs being a "luxury" has passed.

You should probably do a bit more reading on what luxury goods are.  Recorded music in general is a quite new luxury item for humanity.  Perhaps you can also offer a bit of information regarding how you came up with your reasonable price (and then perhaps you can pass that along to the various independent labels).  You have yet to do that; you simply generate mystery numbers that you then claim as reasonable. 

Your first sentence about not wanting to pay anything for them is telling; you have acquired a sense of entitlement regarding entertainment.  I expect to pay for recordings, concerts, movies, books, and other forms of entertainment.  I can't understand such a sense of entitlement.

[Novi]

I love a bargain as much as anyone, but at the end of the day, even a full price CD (how much is that anyway? a tenner? 15 quid?) isn't going to break the bank. I can't think of anything else I could buy for under 20 quid that brings so much enjoyment anyway.

(eta - may be a book )

[Brian]

Really?  Naxos operates differently than most record companies, large and small.  According to Klaus Heymann, they pay all of their artists up-front performance fees and no residuals.  I'm not sure how many artists, especially better known ones, want part of such a deal. 

My university has a couple of Naxos artists in residence (most notably violinist Cho-Liang Lin) and I have heard from their students that they receive only $1000-$1500 for recording a Naxos disc (or even less if they are not the main artist on the disc). So recording for Naxos is not an appealing deal if you have any sort of standards regarding payment.

They also tend to use less well-known orchestras.  I've yet to see the Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic, New York Philharmonic, etc on Naxos in new recordings.  (The Philharmonia has popped up on the label once or twice, but that may have been from poached recordings.)

Naxos has recorded with, among others, the London Philharmonic, the London Symphony, Czech Philharmonic, the Academy of St-Martin-in-the-Fields (with Sir Neville Marriner), Cho-Liang Lin and Anthony Newman, Leonard Slatkin, Josef Suk, and several of the principals of the Vienna Philharmonic, including clarinetist Peter Schmidl, flautist Wolfgang Schulz, and violist Heinrich Koll.

[Todd]

I admit that I haven't seen all of the Naxos recordings out there, but at least some of the discs you refer to are actually reissues of earlier recordings on other, now-defunct labels, most notably Delos, but also others.  (Naxos also reissues select Koch recordings.)  That's a way to keep costs down - buy your competitors' catalogs.  Alsop is one of their big names so I'm not surprised she gets a relatively big band, though I'm surprised that Falleta gets the LSO.  I'm also a bit surprised just how little they pay their solo artists.  No wonder Jeno Jando recorded so much.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I admit that I haven't seen all of the Naxos recordings out there, but at least some of the discs you refer to are actually reissues of earlier recordings on other, now-defunct labels, most notably Delos, but also others.  (Naxos also reissues select Koch recordings.)

Yes, same for the defunct Collins Classics label. That Steuart Bedford/Benjamin Britten series w/ the London Symphony and the English Chamber Orchestra is a complete reissue.

(I think I need to look into these...)

[Brian]

I'm also a bit surprised just how little they pay their solo artists.  No wonder Jeno Jando recorded so much.

Yes indeed. In fact, the reason why Naxos does not record with the New York Philharmonic and other major American orchestras is that their labor deals prevent them from getting such a lousy recording contract. In addition, Naxos evidently used to treat the artists rather poorly - for instance, the composer Balada had to pay for an orchestra's dinner when they stayed in the studio late and Naxos wouldn't pick up the tab. That was back in 2000, though. I believe one Rice professor simply got them to distribute a recording he and colleagues had made for their own interest/amusement, which must have been a more pleasant process.

[The new erato]

What's reasonable depends upon what's on the disc. I would be willing to pay quite a lot for eg the BPO playing Hilding Rosenberg under a top conductur or Chicago doing Piston, but next to nothing (well, let's face it: nothing) for a second rank orchestra doing yet another Beethoven symphony. This seems to be little understood among the major recording companies.

[Grazioso]

What's reasonable depends upon what's on the disc. I would be willing to pay quite a lot for eg the BPO playing Hilding Rosenberg under a top conductur or Chicago doing Piston, but next to nothing (well, let's face it: nothing) for a second rank orchestra doing yet another Beethoven symphony. This seems to be little understood among the major recording companies.

Too true. What I wouldn't give to hear some of my favorite non-canonical music played by the very best orchestras and conductors instead of second-stringers who've been indifferently recorded. Imagine the BPO recorded by top engineers playing, say, Atterberg's symphonies...

[mn dave]

$9.99 is reasonable for a CD, but unreasonable for a downloaded album.

[FredT]

My feeling is that a reasonable price is whatever I think a cd is worth, period.

[DavidW]

My feeling is that a reasonable price is whatever I think a cd is worth, period.

No kidding really?  I never would have guessed!  I suppose if the question was "what do you think a cd is worth?" you would have answered with "whatever I think is reasonable."

[71 dB]

The question is complex because the price is not constant. It varies in time. I have CDs that I bought years ago for about 20 euros. If I go to Amazon.co.uk Marketplace to see how much is asked for them today the results are interesting:

Some CDs are £0.01 + shipping! That's ~2.20 euros.
Some CDs are ~£7 +shipping. That's ~11 euros.
Some CDs are ~£40 + shipping. That's ~ 50 euros

So, the question is where the price is going? Up or down? Yeah, I am maybe ready to pay 15 euros for a certain CD but why not wait for a year or two and get it for 5 euros? It's all about predicting the price of next year.

[The new erato]

The question is complex because the price is not constant. It varies in time. I have CDs that I bought years ago for about 20 euros. If I go to Amazon.co.uk Marketplace to see how much is asked for them today the results are interesting:

Some CDs are £0.01 + shipping! That's ~2.20 euros.
Some CDs are ~£7 +shipping. That's ~11 euros.
Some CDs are ~£40 + shipping. That's ~ 50 euros

So, the question is where the price is going? Up or down? Yeah, I am maybe ready to pay 15 euros for a certain CD but why not wait for a year or two and get it for 5 euros? It's all about predicting the price of next year.

We're confusing price and value here. I'm willing to pay what a disc is worth to me. For me that is a reasonable price.

[The Six]

You should probably do a bit more reading on what luxury goods are.  Recorded music in general is a quite new luxury item for humanity.  Perhaps you can also offer a bit of information regarding how you came up with your reasonable price (and then perhaps you can pass that along to the various independent labels).  You have yet to do that; you simply generate mystery numbers that you then claim as reasonable. 

Your first sentence about not wanting to pay anything for them is telling; you have acquired a sense of entitlement regarding entertainment.  I expect to pay for recordings, concerts, movies, books, and other forms of entertainment.  I can't understand such a sense of entitlement.

I have no personal sense of entitlement for entertainment - that's why I didn't offer $0 as a reasonable price, because I know it isn't.

But since you bring up humanity, I do feel that we should have access to certain things. Yeah, recorded music is new,  recording TV is newer, and any bum can buy a VCR now. Of course those are different items, and VCRs were replaced by better technology, but CD prices haven't adapted at all to the changing times. Every aspect of CDs, from production to performers, should have its compensation lowered. The price just doesn't fit. Somewhere along the line entertainment in general blew up to a point that it revels in the excess - perhaps classical music isn't so guilty of this, but it would benefit from being more accessible.

[DavidW]

and any bum can buy a VCR now.

Uh no vcr's are not manufactured anymore.  You can only find them in dual dvd recorders.

Of course those are different items, and VCRs were replaced by better technology, but CD prices haven't adapted at all to the changing times. Every aspect of CDs, from production to performers, should have its compensation lowered.

The analogy doesn't work.  Obviously vhs is to dvd as lp is to cd.  And also most people don't care that cd prices stink because they buy mp3s.

The price just doesn't fit. Somewhere along the line entertainment in general blew up to a point that it revels in the excess - perhaps classical music isn't so guilty of this, but it would benefit from being more accessible.

I suggest you stop wasting time comparing the video to the music industry.  They have different supply-demand curves, and are fundamentally different things.

[Todd]

But since you bring up humanity, I do feel that we should have access to certain things. Yeah, recorded music is new,  recording TV is newer, and any bum can buy a VCR now. Of course those are different items, and VCRs were replaced by better technology, but CD prices haven't adapted at all to the changing times. Every aspect of CDs, from production to performers, should have its compensation lowered. The price just doesn't fit. Somewhere along the line entertainment in general blew up to a point that it revels in the excess - perhaps classical music isn't so guilty of this, but it would benefit from being more accessible.

This is, quite frankly, the whiniest, most self-serving tripe I've read about how "expensive" recorded music is; it betrays a childish, profoundly selfish sense of entitlement with regard to entertainment.  Your sentence "[e]very aspect of CDs, from production to performers, should have its compensation lowered" is truly precious; you obviously have no idea what type of compensation is paid to different people in the production chain, and you only want a lower price, the people who make the product be damned.  Truly laughable.