Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)

[Pat B]

Yes and it may have been middle of the road HIP even then, I don't know.

Back then I don't think there was an HIP road to be in the middle of.

In case it wasn't clear, I like this recording of the Suites a lot -- more than I expected actually -- even if it isn't maximally jolting. AFAIK he never recorded them again, unlike the Brandenburgs. But that might just be a consequence of the popularity of the Brandenburgs vs. the Suites.

[Jo498]

In the mid-sixties the bold idea was to use old instruments at all. As especially the wind and brass players often still struggled with them, there was not much headroom for all of the mannerisms Harnoncourt has become notorious for.

[prémont]

Back then I don't think there was an HIP road to be in the middle of.

In case it wasn't clear, I like this recording of the Suites a lot -- more than I expected actually -- even if it isn't maximally jolting. AFAIK he never recorded them again, unlike the Brandenburgs. But that might just be a consequence of the popularity of the Brandenburgs vs. the Suites.

Yes he did, around 1982. They are available in the big Teldec Bach-box, at least.

If you ask me, I prefer the 1966 suites-recording, in the same way as I prefer the 1963 Brandenburgs.

In the 1960es musicians had to learn to master the period instruments, and their interpretive style was rather traditional (Brandenburgs from Wenzinger, Harnoncourt,Collegium Aureum). It was not until later, that they began to make experiments with the style, and Harnoncourts "rhetorical" experiments with the Brandenburgs and Suites do not appeal that much to me. His theory was better than the sounding results.

[eoghan]

I've been listening on Spotify to the recent Concerto Koln recording.

Some kind soul has put the liner notes here http://issuu.com/highresaudio/docs/concerto_k__ln_-_bach_brandenburg_c Sensibly, they declared that they wouldn't make the recording unless they could do something new, so they take a rigorous academic approach, taking HIP ultra-seriously.

The "headline" feature is the custom-designed flauti-d'echo for the Fourth. With what appears to be fairly flimsy available evidence, they had an instrument built which from the description is a double recorder, which can be played at two different volume levels - to come to the fore in the slow movement. They use violones, different harpsichords, 392Hz, and in the Sixth they use alto gambas (rather than the normal tenor). Exciting stuff.

To these ears, the results are mixed but I don't think i'll be buying the CD. For the most part the sound is just too dry and passionless. Tempi are mixed and completely  consistent - a metronome couldn't do a better job; sometimes I was screaming for just a bit of rubato. Tone is definitely on the delicate side without a hint of vulgarity - this is Baroque for heaven's sake! - and phrasing is unrelentingly staccato which starts to grate after a while.

The First is disappointing. It's just too light and pretty. The horns are barely noticeable; the Adagio is too quick for my ears and while I've no problem with the fast tempo of the Trio which does create a little sense of dancing, there's little to make it memorable. As with the other concertos, individual playing is very nice, especially from the winds, with some very beautiful soft tones.

The Second is similarly pretty, but brings little new to the table. Here the soft tones really blend together nicely - the 392 pitch does help make the trumpet less shrill and more in line with the tone of the oboe, which I like. The slow movement - one of the most beautiful Bach wrote - is rendered so passively that it becomes forgettable. In the finale the sweetness does add something, but overall there seems to be too much of a sense that they just decided to let the music and instruments speak for themselves - I'd like to see a bit more "effort" if that makes sense.

The Third is taken very briskly. Again, it's light as air and I found myself cranking up the volume to try and give it some more body. It does however have energy and after a couple of listens at a decent volume I found myself coming around; while I do prefer a "heavier" sound in the first movement, this is one of my favourite alternative (and possibly more authentic) readings. They don't muck about with an extended cadenza in the "slow movement" - thanks goddness as far as I'm concerned. The presto is very, very crisp. Again I wouldn't mind a little more weight but their approach is superbly executed.

And so to the Fourth with the custom-built flauti d'echo. There's a myth which needs to be debunked once and for all - that recorders are incapable of any dynamic range. This is nonsense. By controlling the profile of the breath column the volume can be changed a fair bit - if at the expense of modifying the tone somewhat. That's before we even get to alternative fingerings. But I don't understand the need to design a new instrument for the echo effect in the slow movement when the orchestration itself gives the echo effect. The flauti d'echo only manage to sound weak in the echo passages, which a standard recorder can do anyhow. This might have been an interesting academic exercise, but I can't see that it has added anything musically. The only point of interest is the occasional emphasis on the second quaver in a pair by the recorders - I'm not 100% convinced that it works, but it's certainly different. The first movement is taken at a relaxed, almost sedate tempo. Once again it's pretty without bringing anything particularly special to the table. The band seem to speed up suddenly at the final recapitulation for no apparent reason which annoys me. The finale is fine, but the initial unison recorder entry is just too gentle - why have fancy supercharged instruments if it's going to be such a weedy entry?

Of all the concertos it's probably the Fifth which works the best. This is a really nice reading - full of life and lovely phrasing. The best part, for me,  is the middle section where "nothing really happens" - the seemingly endless, tuneless, hypnotic section where the flute and violin play heavy vibrato'd notes behind an incessant harpsichord, modulating all the way. It's druggy and soporific and creates the perfect effect. The harpsichord cadenza is taken at a very slow tempo by modern standards - it's interesting in that you get a chance to consider the notes a bit more carefully than usual - although I still rather the prefer the Van Halen-style OTT virtuoso approach. The affetusoso is dull as ever but that's just a weak composition in my eyes. The finale features lovely solo playing and is up with the best recordings.

The Sixth is a reasonable rendition but again suffers from being metronomically consistent. Once again the phrasing is sprightly and staccato. The slow movement actually has what is lacking elsewhere in this recording - some passion. The final allegro is taken at a very moderato pace and is clean throughout, allowing the listener to hear the different lines and interplay. My ear isn't good enough to know what if anything the alto gambas bring, although the balance doesn't sound unpleasant to me.

Overall, then, a mixed bag. I like to mixture of brisk tempi in some movements combined with some far more relaxed approaches elsewhere and the individual playing is pretty throughout. However, it's a recording that is often soulless and my impression is that it's more of academic interest than musical, which is a shame. It's miles better than Suzuki, and probably on a par with the likes of Egarr, but still a long way behind my clear leader, Gardiner. Still, if you like very clean playing then definitely worth a listen.

[Jo498]

I think on Harnoncourts early 80s recording the recorders in the 4th concerto are placed at a distance to get the echo effect. But they are just ordinary recorders.

[HIPster]

First disc from this. It's good, but perhaps too polished, I like the "living on the edge" feeling that e.g. Savall brings to this.

Interesting, I do find this interpretation to be "on the edge" so to speak, but I can easily see what you are saying here erato.  I love playing Savall's - on headphones especially - when I travel for work, on planes and in airports, etc.

This set, Savall's version and Philip Pickett's are my top choices in the Brandenburg Concertos.

I also regularly reach for the Linde Consort, Goebel/MAK, and Koopman/ABO.  Other standouts for me are Pinnock's first version on Archiv (I always enjoy listening to this when it's playing, but rarely reach for it?  ) and Allessandrini/Concerto Italiano.

Special mention to the above version (#3???) by La Petite Bande and also Hogwood's "alternate" readings too.

Que, I am inclined to try Lotter's, do I need this one?
[asin]B00EHYYYR0[/asin]


Rampe is on my short list too, based on premont's recommendation; just waiting for the right price-point. 

And I see that premont has unearthed a version by Reyne.  Oy!  Do I need to check out this one too?

Cafe Zimmermann's six disc set is also wonderful, but is a different kind of beast altogether for me.  I also really like the DVD of the Freiburgers, but it's just a pain to deal with that annoying menu feature every time I want to just play some Bach. . .   

[prémont]

This set, Savall's version and Philip Pickett's are my top choices in the Brandenburg Concertos.

I also regularly reach for the Linde Consort, Goebel/MAK, and Koopman/ABO.  Other standouts for me are Pinnock's first version on Archiv (I always enjoy listening to this when it's playing, but rarely reach for it?  ) and Allessandrini/Concerto Italiano.

Special mention to the above version (#3???) by La Petite Bande and also Hogwood's "alternate" readings too.

Que, I am inclined to try Lotter's, do I need this one?


Rampe is on my short list too, based on premont's recommendation; just waiting for the right price-point. 

And I see that premont has unearthed a version by Reyne.  Oy!  Do I need to check out this one too?

It depends upon your level of ambition in this area, I would say. The number of released Brandenburg sets since 1927 is about 175. Of these I own 160+ and know most of the rest. So my level of ambition is very high. But if you own 20 or so (and you mention more of my favorites above) and has a medium level of ambition, I am not sure, that I would recommend you to use your money on Brandenburgs. There is so much other music to explore. But the choice is yours of course.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Brandenburg Questions

Interesting, I do find this interpretation to be "on the edge" so to speak, but I can easily see what you are saying here erato.  I love playing Savall's - on headphones especially - when I travel for work, on planes and in airports, etc.
This set, Savall's version and Philip Pickett's are my top choices in the Brandenburg Concertos.
I also regularly reach for the Linde Consort, Goebel/MAK, and Koopman/ABO.  Other standouts for me are Pinnock's first version on Archiv (I always enjoy listening to this when it's playing, but rarely reach for it?  ) and Allessandrini/Concerto Italiano.
Special mention to the above version (#3???) by La Petite Bande and also Hogwood's "alternate" readings too.
Rampe is on my short list too, based on premont's recommendation; just waiting for the right price-point. 
And I see that premont has unearthed a version by Reyne.  Oy!  Do I need to check out this one too?
Cafe Zimmermann's six disc set is also wonderful, but is a different kind of beast altogether for me.  I also really like the DVD of the Freiburgers, but it's just a pain to deal with that annoying menu feature every time I want to just play some Bach. . .   

I love Egarr, who is a good mix of things I like (low pitch, calm but sprigtly... not fast'n'furious for its own sake).

I used to think that Pinnock's English Concert recording was about as good as it gets – a notion I was disabused of by many subsequent groups bettering that laudable effort. Egarr won't be the last word in this progression, either, but the increments are getting smaller and smaller.

Review, alongside Alessandrini, Savall, Pinnock II: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/egarrs-brandenburg-concertos.html

Sure, there are 'anachronisms' here and there - and a few off-notes - but this is miles away from the British "bigger-is-better" Handel oratorio style that occasionally spilled over to Bach's choral works around that time. What Karl Richter was to Bach performance in the 1960s, Busch must have been in the 1930s.

Review Busch: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/adolf-buschs-brandenburg-concertos.html

They are the most chamber-music like of Kuijken's Brandenburgs yet, with that crisp, uncompromising attack that makes his one-year cantata cycle on the same label such a thrilling proposition.

Review Kuijken III: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html

[prémont]

Special mention to the above version (#3???) by La Petite Bande ...

Sigiswald Kuijken participated on violin on Leonhardt's recording (SEON), but La Petite Bande has only released two sets, the first on DHM and the second on Accent. But I also own a live set by them, not released commercially, but part of a broadcast transmission from the 1990es.

I also really like the DVD of the Freiburgers, but it's just a pain to deal with that annoying menu feature every time I want to just play some Bach. . .   

The Freiburgers released a new CD set recently on Harmonia Mundi, but I think the playing is a bit too casual compared to the earlier DVD set, which I much prefer.

[prémont]

Quote from Jens:

What Karl Richter was to Bach performance in the 1960s, Busch must have been in the 1930s. The Busch Players used viola da gambas and George Eskdale played on a Bach trumpet he had made.



Interesting information. Where did you get it from?

Busch does not score the 6th concerto soloistic, and it is indeed difficult to "decode" the gamba parts sonically.

[HIPster]

Jens and premont - Thank you for your comments! 

I initially liked Egarr quite a lot, but cooled to it over time.  The First Concerto has a lurching quality to it that I found distracting (it's my favorite of the Brandenburgs, so not inconsequential to me).  I do really like Egarr/AAM's Third, Fourth and (especially) Sixth.

How about Concerto Koln, also at the lower pitch?
[asin]B00MAUYWH0[/asin]

While we're at it here, how about Florilegium's set?
[asin]B00NX6HWOA[/asin]

[SurprisedByBeauty]

To the great Parsifal Poll This Way!

It is good music--I went through the not actually complete Naxos set not long ago--but Reger seems to have no objection to that sort of humor.

Indeed, he might have liked it. Made it more sophisticated the puerile, perhaps, but yes. Smallest room of the house and all. 

Quote from Jens:
What Karl Richter was to Bach performance in the 1960s, Busch must have been in the 1930s. The Busch Players used viola da gambas and George Eskdale played on a Bach trumpet he had made.

Interesting information. Where did you get it from?

I strongly suspect I got that from Tully Potter's liner notes.

Jens and premont - Thank you for your comments! 
I initially liked Egarr quite a lot, but cooled to it over time.  The First Concerto has a lurching quality to it that I found distracting (it's my favorite of the Brandenburgs, so not inconsequential to me).  I do really like Egarr/AAM's Third, Fourth and (especially) Sixth.
How about Concerto Koln, also at the lower pitch?


While we're at it here, how about Florilegium's set?

Almost shockingly, to myself, I don't have either... not even Concerto Koln, which I like quite a bit. New release, I reckon; certainly loved their previous one of the Overtures. I think I might ask for that in the Christmas stocking. 

[prémont]

How about Concerto Koln, also at the lower pitch?
[asin]B00MAUYWH0[/asin]

While we're at it here, how about Florilegium's set?
[asin]B00NX6HWOA[/asin]

I got both relatively recently and have listened to them only once. I do not feel sufficiently "dressed" to comment upon them yet.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

In this box??

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner%2BClassics/2564601931

Because I own an older release of the Brandenburgs and suites.

No; at least I don't know if those notes are in that set (though a friend of mine has it and I could check. I just checked and yes, I got it from the liner notes of the release mentioned and depicted in said article:
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/adolf-buschs-brandenburg-concertos.html

TD:


#morninglistening to @arcomelo2013 in #Corelli sonatas on @outheremusic/Arcana. Gaetano Na... http://ift.tt/2fnroIZ

[Que]

Interesting, I do find this interpretation to be "on the edge" so to speak, but I can easily see what you are saying here erato.  I love playing Savall's - on headphones especially - when I travel for work, on planes and in airports, etc.

This set, Savall's version and Philip Pickett's are my top choices in the Brandenburg Concertos.

I also regularly reach for the Linde Consort, Goebel/MAK, and Koopman/ABO.  Other standouts for me are Pinnock's first version on Archiv (I always enjoy listening to this when it's playing, but rarely reach for it?  ) and Allessandrini/Concerto Italiano.

Special mention to the above version (#3???) by La Petite Bande and also Hogwood's "alternate" readings too.

Que, I am inclined to try Lotter's, do I need this one?
[asin]B00EHYYYR0[/asin]


Rampe is on my short list too, based on premont's recommendation; just waiting for the right price-point. 

And I see that premont has unearthed a version by Reyne.  Oy!  Do I need to check out this one too?

Cafe Zimmermann's six disc set is also wonderful, but is a different kind of beast altogether for me.  I also really like the DVD of the Freiburgers, but it's just a pain to deal with that annoying menu feature every time I want to just play some Bach. . .   

Jens and premont - Thank you for your comments! 

I initially liked Egarr quite a lot, but cooled to it over time.  The First Concerto has a lurching quality to it that I found distracting (it's my favorite of the Brandenburgs, so not inconsequential to me).  I do really like Egarr/AAM's Third, Fourth and (especially) Sixth.

How about Concerto Koln, also at the lower pitch?
[asin]B00MAUYWH0[/asin]

While we're at it here, how about Florilegium's set?
[asin]B00NX6HWOA[/asin]

Hi HIPster,
Whether you should get yet another Brandenburgs,  is up to you...
I am usually not do keen on multiple recordings, but was looking for a new recording after it had been a long time I lived with Harnoncourt II and wanted to give myself an update on what was available. During those years I sometimes considered other recordings like Kuijken I (underpowered) or Alessandrini  (definitely Italianate). I did keep Linde Consort, which I like very much. I also love Café Zimmermann but those are a special case.

So like a year ago I listened to every sample and excerpt available of old and new recordings.
The process of comparison  was instructive and surprising. I would have bet a considerable sum on a choice for Concerto Köln, the Freiburgers or Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin. With a choice like that, how can you go wrong? Well the Freiburgers were on CD definitely a let down... I'm not much into the pumped up style of the drilled Akademie. The Concerto Köln fared best but didn't quite enthrall me, a bit of "going through the motions"? Excellent musicianship, don't get me wrong. Of the Oldies I really liked Goebel, but too dated and too similar an approach to Linde to justify the purchase. I also was quite taken by the charming performance, however dated, by Leonhardt et al on SEON.

So the final choice fell on a dark horse pointed out by premont Gordo: Rüdiger Lotter and his Hofkapelle München. New kids on the block to keep an eye on. Why? The perfomances are a breath of fresh air: spontaneous, very energetic like Harnoncourt and Savall but remarkably balanced, never over the top. Still: probably not for the fainthearted.... For those looking for a "pretty" version, Kuijken II is a perfect match. The sound of the Hofkapelle is very clear and natural. Another point is that I'm not always into Bach in "foreign" accents - this is profoundly idiomatic. I also like how they treat each concerto very much according to its own individual character - some amazing instrumental solos to be heard.

Anyway, perhaps just sample and see if it gives off a vibe....

Q

[prémont]

So the final choice fell on a dark horse pointed out by premont: Rüdiger Lotter and his Hofkapelle München.

To be fair I think Gordo was the first to mention this recording. 

[Que]

To be fair I think Gordo was the first to mention this recording. 

Now you mention it, indeed it was him!

Q

[Wakefield]

Now you mention it, indeed it was him!

Q

c'mon, after an exalted recommendation, I even recommended you to purchase it for 2 cents on JPC!

What an ungrateful guy!     

PS: Premont's memory is infallible.

[aligreto]

Hi HIPster,
Whether you should get yet another Brandenburgs,  is up to you...
I am usually not do keen on multiple recordings, but was looking for a new recording after it had been a long time I lived with Harnoncourt II and wanted to give myself an update on what was available. During those years I sometimes considered other recordings like Kuijken I (underpowered) or Alessandrini  (definitely Italianate). I did keep Linde Consort, which I like very much. I also love Café Zimmermann but those are a special case.

So like a year ago I listened to every sample and excerpt available of old and new recordings.
The process of comparison  was instructive and surprising. I would have bet a considerable sum on a choice for Concerto Köln, the Freiburgers or Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin. With a choice like that, how can you go wrong? Well the Freiburgers were on CD definitely a let down... I'm not much into the pumped up style of the drilled Akademie. The Concerto Köln fared best but didn't quite enthrall me, a bit of "going through the motions"? Excellent musicianship, don't get me wrong. Of the Oldies I realy liked Goebel, but too dated and too similar an approach to Linde to justify thr purchase.

So the final choice fell on a dark horse pointed out by premont: Rüdiger Lotter and his Hofkapelle München. New kids on the block to keep an eye on. Why? The perfomances are a breath of fresh air: spontaneous, very energetic like Harnoncourt and Savall but remarkably balanced, never over the top. Still: probably not for the fainthearted.... For those looking for a "pretty" version, Kuijken II is a perfect match. The sound of the Hofkapelle is very clear and natural. Another point is that I'm not always into Bach in "foreign" accents - this is profoundly idiomatic. I also like how they treat each concerto very much according to its own individual character - some amazing instrumental solos to be heard.

Anyway, perhaps just sample and see if it gives off a vibe....

Q

A good read Q 

[Que]

c'mon, after an exalted recommendation, I even recommended you to purchase it for 2 cents on JPC!

What an ungrateful guy!     

PS: Premont's memory is infallible.

I guess subconsciously I'm inclined to attribute any Bach related recommendation to premont...

Long time no see, my friend !
Keep those excellent recommendations coming....

Q