Author Topic: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)  (Read 112724 times)

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Offline aligreto

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #660 on: July 14, 2020, 12:15:25 AM »
JS Bach: Brandenburg Concertos [Richter]





Not culling  ;), just listening, again.
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Offline Daverz

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #661 on: July 14, 2020, 01:19:18 AM »
(Leonhardt on Seon) is a pretty standard recommendation I think though.

It certainly was 30+ years ago (for example in Bill Parker's Building a Classical Record Library circa 1985).  I was just listening to this, and I think it holds up very well.

My favorite of the 2000s was the Akademie für Alte Musik, Berlin.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 01:23:57 AM by Daverz »

Offline Biffo

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #662 on: July 14, 2020, 02:39:43 AM »
JS Bach: Brandenburg Concertos [Richter]





Not culling  ;), just listening, again.

Just checked wiki and was surprised to see Karl Richter died as long ago as 1981. He is my mainstay for the cantatas. For a time I thought his Matthew Passion was too slow but now I quite like it. I don't know his Brandenburgs at all.

Offline Jo498

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #663 on: July 14, 2020, 03:16:53 AM »
The Richter instrumental recordings were very common in the 70s and 80s. They are rather stiff, I think, and not as good as e.g. Leppard or Marriner. He died rather young and his vocal Bach (and maybe also some keybard) recordings can still be worthwhile, not only for historical significance.
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Offline aligreto

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #664 on: July 14, 2020, 04:39:54 AM »



Just checked wiki and was surprised to see Karl Richter died as long ago as 1981. He is my mainstay for the cantatas. For a time I thought his Matthew Passion was too slow but now I quite like it. I don't know his Brandenburgs at all.

They are not bad performances. The orchestral and solo instrumental playing is very fine and the sound quality is also good. The speeds are also quick. Everything seems right individually but the overall result does nor sparkle. I suppose that this ties in with Jo498's comment but I do like to hear them once in a while as an example of that era.
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #665 on: July 14, 2020, 04:59:02 AM »
A fast count reveals that to my knowledge there are 180 complete sets made between 1927 and to day. It's difficult to choose favorites from that large pool, but still:

Period instruments top eleven in chronological order:

Nicolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus, Wien (first recording -Telefunken 1963)

Gustav Leonhardt / Dutch ensemble ad hoc (Philips-Seon 1977)

Hans- Martin Linde / Linde Ensemble (EMI Reflexe 1982)

Trevor Pinnock / The English concert (Archiv 1982)

Roy Goodman / The Brandenburg Consort (Hyperion 1992)

Philip Pickett / New London Consort (L'Oiseau Lyre 1993)

Sigiswald Kuijken / La Perite Bande (first recording DHM 1994)

Siegbert Rampe / La Stravaganza, Hamburg (Virgin 1993-95)

Gottfried von der Goltz / Freiburger Barokensemble (first recording DVD Euroarts 1999)

Andrés Gabetta / Swiss Baroque Soloists (Naxos 2006)

Masaaki Suzuki / Bach Collegium, Japan (second recording BIS 2009)
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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #666 on: July 14, 2020, 05:07:19 AM »
If anyone wants my MI top eleven, I shall provide a list.
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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #667 on: July 14, 2020, 05:20:24 AM »
They are not bad performances. The orchestral and solo instrumental playing is very fine and the sound quality is also good. The speeds are also quick. Everything seems right individually but the overall result does nor sparkle. I suppose that this ties in with Jo498's comment but I do like to hear them once in a while as an example of that era.

In general, I think the music is performed in a strange ritual Masonic way here and not quite typical of the era but more typical of Karl Richter. I also prefer the video to the LPs / CDs, not the least because the violin soloist here is Otto Büchner and not Hansheinz Schneeberger.

https://www.amazon.de/Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Brandenburgische-Konzerte/dp/B000C1XGCG/ref=sr_1_2?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=bach+richter&qid=1594736301&s=dvd&sr=1-2
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Offline aligreto

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #668 on: July 14, 2020, 05:41:50 AM »
If anyone wants my MI top eleven, I shall provide a list.

Go for it....
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #669 on: July 14, 2020, 06:36:25 AM »
Harnoncourt 1963 was my first encounter with the music. And my first encounter with historical instruments For some reason my parents had these LPs in a collection that was otherwise dominated by rather popular anthologies (like great opera choruses, some opera highlights, popular ouvertures etc.). I found the sound utterly strange. A year or two later in eleventh grade I gave a school presentation on the Concerti together with a friend. I think the school had the Richter recording, that friend had the then (ca. 1988 or early 1989) fairly recent Musica Antiqua, all still on LP. Harnoncourt was the slowest of all of them, MAK was shockingly fast and aggressive. I still have the DAS ALTE WERK LP-Box, but I haven't heard it in years as I am not set up anymore for playing LPs. As far as I recall the first two concerti are too flawed in the brass/wind department to be acceptable for more than a curiosity. The string concerti might still hold up well enough with 4 and 5 somewhere in between (I think the 4th is also very slow compared to most other recordings).
I don't know any others from premonts list. On CD I have Harnoncourt 1980s, MAK, Akademie f. Alte Musik and Giardino Armonico, on modern instruments Busch, Britten, Leppard and a couple of single concerti as fillers or on historical anthologies (like Edwin Fischer).
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #670 on: July 14, 2020, 07:10:23 AM »
Harnoncourt 1963 was my first encounter with the music.  As far as I recall the first two concerti are too flawed in the brass/wind department to be acceptable for more than a curiosity. The string concerti might still hold up well enough with 4 and 5 somewhere in between (I think the 4th is also very slow compared to most other recordings).

They are not particularly slow compared to most other recordings from the 1960es with one exception. Walter Holy wasn't able to play the natural trumpet in the second concerto (with three finger holes) other than relatively slowly. This was a newly constructed instrument, so he hadn't had that long time for practicing. The corni da caccia are also just acceptable and no match for the standard of to day. The woodwinds are very good. Fallible brass playing was however one of the conditions of that time, and  I do not think this detracts seriously from the all-round musical experience of the recordings, if it isn't worse than here.
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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #671 on: July 14, 2020, 10:49:34 AM »
And here my modern instruments top 11:

Karl Münchinger / Stuttgarter Kammerorkester (second recording Decca 1958)

Rudolf Baumgartner / Lucerne Festival Strings (first recording Archiv 1958)

Friedrich Tilegant / Südwestdeutsches Kammerorkester Pforsheim (first recording Eurodisc 1959)

Kurt Redel
/ Pro Arte Orchestra, München (second recording Erato 1962)

Karl Ristenpart
/ Saarländisches Kammerorkester (second recording Discophiles Francais 1964)

Raymond Leppard / English Chamber orchestra (Philips 1974)

Gerhard Bosse / Gewandhaus Bach orkester (Eterna 1983)

Max Pommer / Neues Bach-Collegium Musicum, Leipzig (Capriccio 1984)

Robert Haydon Clark / Consort of London (Collins 1990)

Helmut Müller Brühl / Kölner Kammerorkester (Naxos 1999)

Jan Willem de Vriend / Combattimento Consort, Amsterdam (Challenge Classics 2007)

As with the PI list the competition is strong, and my choices reflect of course only my own taste.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #672 on: July 14, 2020, 10:56:55 AM »
I find him annoying anyway so perhaps I will give that one a miss  ;D

+ 1
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Offline MusicTurner

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #673 on: July 14, 2020, 11:19:00 AM »
And here my modern instruments top 11:

Karl Münchinger / Stuttgarter Kammerorkester (second recording Decca 1958)

Rudolf Baumgartner / Lucerne Festival Strings (first recording Archiv 1958)

Friedrich Tilegant / Südwestdeutsches Kammerorkester Pforsheim (first recording Eurodisc 1959)

Kurt Redel
/ Pro Arte Orchestra, München (second recording Erato 1962)

Karl Ristenpart
/ Saarländisches Kammerorkester (second recording Discophiles Francais 1964)

Raymond Leppard / English Chamber orchestra (Philips 1974)

Gerhard Bosse / Gewandhaus Bach orkester (Eterna 1983)

Max Pommer / Neues Bach-Collegium Musicum, Leipzig (Capriccio 1984)

Robert Haydon Clark / Consort of London (Collins 1990)

Helmut Müller Brühl / Kölner Kammerorkester (Naxos 1999)

Jan Willem de Vriend / Combattimento Consort, Amsterdam (Challenge Classics 2007)

As with the PI list the competition is strong, and my choices reflect of course only my own taste.

Nice list. I keep returning just to Pommer & likewise have Haydon Clark among the favourites.

Am not a big collector of these works, but also own Casals, Ristenpart, Münchinger, Leonhardt, Harnoncourt, Karajan, Richter and Neel.
I might go for one recent HIP recording some time - maybe Cafe Zimmermann. But their very fast tempi, seen in most HIP, aren't immediately to my taste.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #674 on: July 14, 2020, 11:27:41 AM »
The Brandenburg sets I've listened to lately:

Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, Ton Koopman
The Scottish Ensemble, Jno. Rees
Ensemble Caprice
English Chamber Orchestra, Johannes Somary
AAM, Hogwood
Giardino Armonico

... but don't ask me to pick a favorite.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #675 on: July 14, 2020, 11:29:48 AM »
Am not a big collector of these works, but also own Casals, Ristenpart, Münchinger, Leonhardt, Harnoncourt, Karajan, Richter and Neel.

Boyd Neel's set was one of the first I purchased (on Concert Hall) and I may be a bit biased as to this.

Quote from: MusicTurner
I might go for one recent HIP recording some time - maybe Cafe Zimmermann. But their very fast tempi, seen in most HIP, aren't immediately to my taste.

I am not that partial to those versions where speed seems to be the important point (Cafe Zimmermann, Göbel, Antonini) even if it must be admitted that the playing usually is super brilliant.
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Offline MusicTurner

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #676 on: July 14, 2020, 11:31:37 AM »
Boyd Neel's set was one of the first I purchased (on Concert Hall) and I may be a bit biased as to this.

I am not that partial to those versions where speed seems to be the important point (Cafe Zimmermann, Göbel, Antonini) even if it must be admitted that the playing usually is super brilliant.

I agree, I haven't kept a Göbel recording, I think. Neel doesn't really compare with more recent recordings, IMHO. But mine are LPs, a CD transfer might show something more.

What I heard of Scherchen's wasn't that exciting, contrary to expectations.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 11:35:54 AM by MusicTurner »

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #677 on: July 14, 2020, 12:14:53 PM »
I agree, I haven't kept a Göbel recording, I think. Neel doesn't really compare with more recent recordings, IMHO. But mine are LPs, a CD transfer might show something more.

My copy of Neel's recording was also an LP set, which I have digitized myself. But Forgotten records released it on CD (also digitized LPs) some years ago. I agree, that it isn't that competitive, so it isn't on my top 11 list. But still I love it.

Quote from: MusicTurner
What I heard of Scherchen's wasn't that exciting, contrary to expectations.

The problem with both Scherchen recordings is not the conductor, but soloists which aren't top musicians.
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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #678 on: July 14, 2020, 12:23:18 PM »
The Brandenburg sets I've listened to lately:

Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, Ton Koopman
The Scottish Ensemble, Jno. Rees
Ensemble Caprice
English Chamber Orchestra, Johannes Somary
AAM, Hogwood
Giardino Armonico

... but don't ask me to pick a favorite.

A fine list, where I know them all very well.
It's better to act today than to regret tomorrow.
(Mette Frederiksen)

Offline Daverz

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Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
« Reply #679 on: July 14, 2020, 01:12:13 PM »
Listening to the Leonhardt BC#2 now.  <Looks around furtively for fear of the ghost of William F. Buckley, Jr.>