Topic: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)

[milk]

Cafe Zimmermann has been my favorite for a while.
I’m listening to this today and liking it more than Kuijken, Suzuki or Alessandrini. Maybe it’s as good as Zimmermann for me. I can’t say why yet. I think it may be a bad point of mine that I’m partial towards certain recordings soundscapes. But it’s also texture. I’m not quite sure about the finer points of larger ensemble music. I guess this one is on the brisk side:

[milk]

A harpsichord that cuts through the music in an interesting way. It's a slightly different tonal environment that's created. I don't know if it's the instrument, the recording technique, or a little of both.

[milk]

Takashi Watanabe organ
Ensemble Cordia


Maybe something to check out.

[(: premont :)]

Takashi Watanabe organ
Ensemble Cordia


Maybe something to check out.

Both (this and the Corti) are already on my wish-list.

[milk]

Both (this and the Corti) are already on my wish-list.

I found that I didn’t like the way this was recorded. It’s just too distant-sounding.

[milk]

I’m interested in 1044: triple concerto. It seems like a more complex work and different than the others, not merely for the somewhat unique instrumentation.

This still attracts me as it has Schornsheim on a fortepiano:

[Jo498]

The instruments in BWV 1044 are basically the same as in Brandenburg #5.
But it is  a unique work as it was contructed from a trio sonata movement (the middle one) and a prelude and fugue. I am too lazy to look up the BWV numbers of the sources.
I used to find it a bit boring but while not a favorite I find it now a fascinating piece.

[(: premont :)]

This still attracts me as it has Schornsheim on a fortepiano:

She only plays a Müthel concerto on that CD. The pianoforte in BWV 1044 is played by Zvi Meniker and the harpsichord in BWV 1052 by Rafael Alpermann. However a nice listenable CD.

[milk]

She only plays a Müthel concerto on that CD. The pianoforte in BWV 1044 is played by Zvi Meniker and the harpsichord in BWV 1052 by Rafael Alpermann. However a nice listenable CD.

Gosh, I must have known that at some point. But I've not heard much of Meniker. It's an interesting version.

[eoghan]

Popping on to this thread for the first time in 7 years. This afternoon I did a little blind test of 11 recordings: Dunedin/Butt; European Bandenburg Ensemble/Pinnock; Concerto Italiano/Alessandrini; AAM/Egarr; Music Antiqua Koln/Goebel; Concentus Music Wien/Harnoncourt;p Le Concert des Nations/Savall; La Stravaganza Hamburg/Rampe; English Baroque Soloists/Gardiner; ECO/Britten; Collegium Japan/Suzuki.

I listened to three movements: first movement of the 6th; slow movement of the 4th; finale of the 2nd.

Perhaps my tastes have changed, but compared to what I wrote back in 2014, I found that the first movement of the sixth wasn't a clear win for Savall. Listening blind, I actually found that Rampe, who takes things at a tremendous lick, was wonderful, great energy, dynamics and textures, and a good ensemble sound. Gardiner also gets things just right. Of the slower recordings, Savall is great but I also enjoyed Egarr and Suzuki. Goebel is ferociously fast and everything is just lost - it loses any individuality. On the flipside Britten's band sound like a school orchestra plodding through a bit of Elgar. Alessandrini, Pinnock, Harnoncourt and Butt all had things of interest without being outstanding.

The slow movement of the Fourth surprised me with how little was done with it. Only Goebel really pushes to make things happen, unfortunately he tries a bit too hard and the sound is rather contrived. Quite a few of the recordings are a little one-dimensional and lacking in magic sparkles (Egarr, Rampe, Savall, Pinnock, Suzuki). Harnoncourt's compound time is distracting and divisive. Britten's recording is absolutely beautiful. Butt is excellent although the recorders grate slightly in the couplets and I'm not sure about the final chords, but otherwise he is very, very good. Alessandrini is wonderful with that wistful sound and Gardiner is also good.

I was surprised to find that the gentler tempi used in the finale of the Second tended to work better. Butt is a fine example here. The balance between soloists is perfect. Alessandrini finds some lines in the music which are not prominent elsewhere and really adds something. Failures are Harnoncourt (comically slow, as if it was a first rehearsal), Gardiner and Suzuki.

After assigning scores to each movement, I came up with a top three of
1. Butt (25/30)
2. Alessandrini (24/30)
3=. Gardiner, Egarr, Rampe (22/30)
(Bottom of the pile was Harnoncourt).

[(: premont :)]

Popping on to this thread for the first time in 7 years. This afternoon I did a little blind test of 11 recordings: Dunedin/Butt; European Bandenburg Ensemble/Pinnock; Concerto Italiano/Alessandrini; AAM/Egarr; Music Antiqua Koln/Goebel; Concentus Music Wien/Harnoncourt;p Le Concert des Nations/Savall; La Stravaganza Hamburg/Rampe; English Baroque Soloists/Gardiner; ECO/Britten; Collegium Japan/Suzuki.

I listened to three movements: first movement of the 6th; slow movement of the 4th; finale of the 2nd.

Perhaps my tastes have changed, but compared to what I wrote back in 2014, I found that the first movement of the sixth wasn't a clear win for Savall. Listening blind, I actually found that Rampe, who takes things at a tremendous lick, was wonderful, great energy, dynamics and textures, and a good ensemble sound. Gardiner also gets things just right. Of the slower recordings, Savall is great but I also enjoyed Egarr and Suzuki. Goebel is ferociously fast and everything is just lost - it loses any individuality. On the flipside Britten's band sound like a school orchestra plodding through a bit of Elgar. Alessandrini, Pinnock, Harnoncourt and Butt all had things of interest without being outstanding.

The slow movement of the Fourth surprised me with how little was done with it. Only Goebel really pushes to make things happen, unfortunately he tries a bit too hard and the sound is rather contrived. Quite a few of the recordings are a little one-dimensional and lacking in magic sparkles (Egarr, Rampe, Savall, Pinnock, Suzuki). Harnoncourt's compound time is distracting and divisive. Britten's recording is absolutely beautiful. Butt is excellent although the recorders grate slightly in the couplets and I'm not sure about the final chords, but otherwise he is very, very good. Alessandrini is wonderful with that wistful sound and Gardiner is also good.

I was surprised to find that the gentler tempi used in the finale of the Second tended to work better. Butt is a fine example here. The balance between soloists is perfect. Alessandrini finds some lines in the music which are not prominent elsewhere and really adds something. Failures are Harnoncourt (comically slow, as if it was a first rehearsal), Gardiner and Suzuki.

After assigning scores to each movement, I came up with a top three of
1. Butt (25/30)
2. Alessandrini (24/30)
3=. Gardiner, Egarr, Rampe (22/30)
(Bottom of the pile was Harnoncourt).

Interesting comments, even if I would be careful about rankings based upon only three movements.

My ranking (only taking the versions you listened to into consideration) based upon listening to all the concertos would be:

First tier: Rampe, Suzuki, Alessandrini, Egarr
Second tier: Gardiner, Göbel, Butt, Harnoncourt, Pinnock, Savall
Third tier: Britten

I suppose that you listened to Harnoncourts first version (1962) with Walter Holy on the trumpet. Yes, he plays the piece rather slow, but he was actually the first to record the concerto on a natural trumpet (natural except for three fingerholes, which are a modern invention by Otto Steinkopf to facilitate intonation). This instrument was constructed only a few years before the recording in question by Helmut Finke (1959), so Holy didn't have much time to learn to master this very difficult instrument. From that point of view his effort must be considered admirable.

The second to record the concerto on a natural trumpet was Edward Tarr with Collegium Aureum (1966). But then eleven years passed before the natural trumpet again was used for recordings of this concerto by Friedmann Immer (with Fuller 1977) and Claude Rippas (with Leonhardt 1977). So Holy was a kind of a pioner.

[(: premont :)]

A harpsichord that cuts through the music in an interesting way. It's a slightly different tonal environment that's created. I don't know if it's the instrument, the recording technique, or a little of both.

I was heavily underwhelmed by Corti's earthbound and unimaginative playing. Surprising for him who uses to have much more to say.

[milk]

Interesting comments, even if I would be careful about rankings based upon only three movements.

My ranking (only taking the versions you listened to into consideration) based upon listening to all the concertos would be:

First tier: Rampe, Suzuki, Alessandrini, Egarr
Second tier: Gardiner, Göbel, Butt, Harnoncourt, Pinnock, Savall
Third tier: Britten

I suppose that you listened to Harnoncourts first version (1962) with Walter Holy on the trumpet. Yes, he plays the piece rather slow, but he was actually the first to record the concerto on a natural trumpet (natural except for three fingerholes, which are a modern invention by Otto Steinkopf to facilitate intonation). This instrument was constructed only a few years before the recording in question by Helmut Finke (1959), so Holy didn't have much time to learn to master this very difficult instrument. From that point of view his effort must be considered admirable.

The second to record the concerto on a natural trumpet was Edward Tarr with Collegium Aureum (1966). But then eleven years passed before the natural trumpet again was used for recordings of this concerto by Friedmann Immer (with Fuller 1977) and Claude Rippas (with Leonhardt 1977). So Holy was a kind of a pioner.

How do you feel about Cafe Zimmermann and about Hofkapelle Munchen?

[(: premont :)]

How do you feel about Cafe Zimmermann and about Hofkapelle Munchen?

Cafe Zimmermann's version is a brilliant and high voltage Bach with lots of direction. I acknowledge its virtues, but also admit that I only sometimes want my Bach played in that way.

Hofkapelle München's version is softer in approach and more ear friendly, sometimes I find its effect a bit anonymous etwa like Tafelmusik's version.

[milk]

Cafe Zimmermann's version is a brilliant and high voltage Bach with lots of direction. I acknowledge its virtues, but also admit that I only sometimes want my Bach played in that way.

Hofkapelle München's version is softer in approach and more ear friendly, sometimes I find its effect a bit anonymous etwa like Tafelmusik's version.

Thanks for sharing these observations. Zimmermann has very fine sound quality too, just as a technical matter. It sounds great. Maybe I should spend more time with Egarr. 

[milk]

How do people feel about the new-ish Faust Brandenburg-s?

[aukhawk]

It was greeted with yawns of ennui here when it was announced, which is very understandable.  But of course it's right up there with the best.  The ones I've listened to (3, 4 and 5) are highly-drilled, high-energy, well sprung and immaculately recorded - all as you would expect.   And yet somehow a bit smoothed-over - which is not unpleasant, but was a bit unexpected. 
And to mention one specific point, the keyboard cadenza in the 5th concerto - always a high point for me - is a total car crash here.  He seems to think he's playing Brahms not Bach.  All sense of momenum destroyed.  But the 3rd concerto - which is violin-led of course - predictably superb.

[edit to add - having had a quick listen (to No.3) across several other versions I have access to - compared to Faust/AAMB, Allesandrini and Pinnock sound pedestrian, Savall and Suzuki just dim and distant, Britten not bad but noticeably dated of course, Zimmerman are the closest in tempo and a spikier, less reverbrant recording.  Over all 6, out of these I think Zimmerman would win it for me especially if they were available as a set rather than inconveniently distributed across 6 'discs' which is how I have them.

[milk]

It was greeted with yawns of ennui here when it was announced, which is very understandable.  But of course it's right up there with the best.  The ones I've listened to (3, 4 and 5) are highly-drilled, high-energy, well sprung and immaculately recorded - all as you would expect.   And yet somehow a bit smoothed-over - which is not unpleasant, but was a bit unexpected. 
And to mention one specific point, the keyboard cadenza in the 5th concerto - always a high point for me - is a total car crash here.  He seems to think he's playing Brahms not Bach.  All sense of momenum destroyed.  But the 3rd concerto - which is violin-led of course - predictably superb.

[edit to add - having had a quick listen (to No.3) across several other versions I have access to - compared to Faust/AAMB, Allesandrini and Pinnock sound pedestrian, Savall and Suzuki just dim and distant, Britten not bad but noticeably dated of course, Zimmerman are the closest in tempo and a spikier, less reverbrant recording.  Over all 6, out of these I think Zimmerman would win it for me especially if they were available as a set rather than inconveniently distributed across 6 'discs' which is how I have them.

Thanks!

[(: premont :)]

Over all 6, out of these I think Zimmerman would win it for me especially if they were available as a set rather than inconveniently distributed across 6 'discs' which is how I have them.

Indeed they are:

https://www.amazon.fr/Concertos-Brandebourgeois-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B011MICH3Q/ref=sr_1_8?crid=1O887393YMPE&dchild=1&keywords=cafe+zimmermann&qid=1634735791&s=music&sr=1-8

Edit: Rereleases from the box set, not live recordings.

[milk]

  Over all 6, out of these I think Zimmerman would win it for me

Zimmermann is my favorite. It just sounds so awesome.