Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)

[prémont]

I do own all versions by Marriner.  I also have a version by Karajan/BPO on the Nuova Era label, which was a live recording made in Milan? 

Not the live version from Salzburg? In very bad sound?

[bassio]

Believe it or not, while I generally prefer performance on period instruments when it comes to baroque works, I am particularly fond of the 1980 Marriner recordings with that all-star cast.  Versions by Trevor Pinnock with the English Concert and Roy Goodman with the Brandenburg Consort are also my favorites.  Indeed, versions by the Saar Chamber Orchestra with Karl Ristenpart, the Marlboro Festival Orchestra with Pablo Casal and I Musici are all somewhat rare.
Considering I have close to 1000 CD's/LP's on Bach works, the number of versions of Brandenburg Concertos I have are by no means excessive.

Just checked my records shelf, it looks like I also have a version by Festival Strings Lucerne with Joseph Suk, Christiane Jaccottet, etc. on Eurodisc.  It appears to be a somewhat rare version as well.

   

Ditto Coopmv, this is one of my favorite versions ever, together with the Pinnock recording on Archiv etc.

[prémont]

I didn't remember the Parrott's recording, but in several parts is very hectic indeed. The quality sound is not excellent, but curiously was improved when I used headphones, which it's weird.

Just relistened to Parrott´s Brandenburgs 1-6 which I have not heard maybe in five years.
My impression is unchanged. The often hectic character is not (IMO) caused by the fast tempi as such - this music has been played even faster by others - but from the fact, that there is a perceptible lack in the ultimate precision of ensemble, and that some of the musicians seem uncomfortable with the chosen tempi. SQ a bit sharp but tolerable.

[Coopmv]

Will somebody wake me up once we have the "mine is bigger than yours" discussion behind us and talk about recordings extends at least minimally beyond "I think [X] is awesome. [Y] is awesome, too!"?

Pardon my short memory, I think someone here has 29 versions of Bach Complete Organ Works, which must include every conceivable version out there.  FK and I each have at least 16 Beethoven Symphonies.  How many version of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas does our Richtervangelist have now?  Well, that is life.  We all have the tendency to overdo ...

[Renfield]

Will somebody wake me up once we have the "mine is bigger than yours" discussion behind us and talk about recordings extends at least minimally beyond "I think [X] is awesome. [Y] is awesome, too!"?

Jens, I'm afraid half the discussions in our dear forum boil down to this before long. The other half are in the Diner.


On other news, I am considering risking the late BPO/Karajan Brandenburgs. I've a good track record from making sense (and indeed enjoying) "controversial" - especially late - Karajan recordings, and I'm very curious to hear just what he did there...

[Coopmv]

Jens, I'm afraid half the discussions in our dear forum boil down to this before long. The other half are in the Diner.


On other news, I am considering risking the late BPO/Karajan Brandenburgs. I've a good track record from making sense (and indeed enjoying) "controversial" - especially late - Karajan recordings, and I'm very curious to hear just what he did there...

Check out this DVD by Karajan on an all-Bach program, Violin Concertos and Magnificat, performed on New Year's Eve 1984.  Karajan actually conducted from the harpsichord for the Violin Concertos while Anne-Sophie Mutter played the violin.  I truly enjoy this DVD ...

[Antoine Marchand]

Just relistened to Parrott´s Brandenburgs 1-6 which I have not heard maybe in five years.
My impression is unchanged. The often hectic character is not (IMO) caused by the fast tempi as such - this music has been played even faster by others - but from the fact, that there is a perceptible lack in the ultimate precision of ensemble, and that some of the musicians seem uncomfortable with the chosen tempi. SQ a bit sharp but tolerable.

Last night I heard the entire recording and Parrott made me a very poor impression here.

IMO the problem has something to do with the idea, defended by Harnoncourt, about the Baroque music as speech. These works are essentially a very well-mannered conversation; with ideas, arguments and phrases that are expressed on different instruments (Alessandrini says something similar in his booklet and DVD). Therefore, when the talk doesn't flow and you can't listen to every "argument", the thing isn't working out.

This isn't an awful recording and has enjoyable moments (especially in the slow movements), but it frequently doesn't flow. You don't get the idea of a group of friends, everyone listening to the others and having a good time.

And the sound quality doesn't help. 

[nut-job]

On other news, I am considering risking the late BPO/Karajan Brandenburgs. I've a good track record from making sense (and indeed enjoying) "controversial" - especially late - Karajan recordings, and I'm very curious to hear just what he did there...

These are not late recordings, from the 70's, and they're dismal.

[The new erato]

These are not late recordings, from the 70's, and they're dismal.

Trying to drive Renfield of the forum?   

[prémont]

IMO the problem has something to do with the idea, defended by Harnoncourt, about the Baroque music as speech. These works are essentially a very well-mannered conversation; with ideas, arguments and phrases that are expressed on different instruments (Alessandrini says something similar in his booklet and DVD). Therefore, when the talk doesn't flow and you can't listen to every "argument", the thing isn't working out.

This isn't an awful recording and has enjoyable moments (especially in the slow movements), but it frequently doesn't flow. You don't get the idea of a group of friends, everyone listening to the others and having a good time.

A very apt (and poetic) way to describe the situation. Baroque music regarded (and Bach certainly the most) as speech, not only as to phrasing and articulation, but also as to conversation. I do not think Harnoncourt invented this point of view, but I always agreed with him. I have had some discussion in another forum concerning the distiction between speech and song, but in my opinion speech is the most adequate description, especially regarding the articulation.

[Antoine Marchand]

Baroque music regarded (and Bach certainly the most) as speech, not only as to phrasing and articulation, but also as to conversation. I do not think Harnoncourt invented this point of view, but I always agreed with him. I have had some discussion in another forum concerning the distiction between speech and song, but in my opinion speech is the most adequate description, especially regarding the articulation.

That's exactly my opinion too.

[Bulldog]

Though an ardent Bach fan, I'm not big on multiple recordings. And the Brandenburgs are something I do not listen to all that often. I don't like non-HIP (owning any Bach by the illustrious "HvK" sounds actually rather frightening.. )

Agreed.  Karajan/Bach is one bankrupt partnership.

[Renfield]

These are not late recordings, from the 70's, and they're dismal.

Trying to drive Renfield of the forum?  

Hah! Not even close. If I was that easy to get rid of, I wouldn't be where I am.


On Karajan's Brandenburgs:

I was under the impression the set I was referring to (the second one) was issued in the 80's. In fact, I am still under the same impression!

And they might well be dismal! That's why I want to hear them, I want to know first-hand; perhaps I might even find something to like in them (as I often do with the less successful Karajan recordings), even if I might still agree that they are not recommendable.

[Coopmv]

Hah! Not even close. If I was that easy to get rid of, I wouldn't be where I am.


On Karajan's Brandenburgs:

I was under the impression the set I was referring to (the second one) was issued in the 80's. In fact, I am still under the same impression!

I think the last of the Brandenburg Concertos recorded by Karajan was made in the 70's.

[Renfield]

I think the last of the Brandenburg Concertos recorded by Karajan was made in the 70's.

1978-1979, according to Deutsche Grammophon. You are correct.

And I think my misunderstanding was likely based on the fact that, as a child of the CD-era, I only counted the CD release date, which seems to be after the turn of the decade; but I understand they might've been available on LP closer to their recording dates, thus in the 1970's.

[jlaurson]

I think the last of the Brandenburg Concertos recorded by Karajan was made in the 70's.

The first set was recorded 64/65, the second 78/879.

typo corrected

[Coopmv]

Agreed.  Karajan/Bach is one bankrupt partnership.

Karajan was never known for Bach or Handel for that matter.  This 3-CD set of Handel Concerto Grossi, Op. 6 I have is probably one of the worst ever recorded.  The tempo just does not sound right ...

[Coopmv]

The first set was recorded 64/65, the second 78/89.

So the second set was completed just shortly before he died ...

[Renfield]

So the second set was completed just shortly before he died ...

Or Jens made a typo, and it's 78/79.

Karajan was never known for Bach or Handel for that matter.  This 3-CD set of Handel Concerto Grossi, Op. 6 I have is probably one of the worst ever recorded.  The tempo just does not sound right ...

Goodness! I didn't know that set even existed; and no, this one I am not tempted to experiment with.

[Coopmv]

Or Jens made a typo, and it's 78/79.

Goodness! I didn't know that set even existed; and no, this one I am not tempted to experiment with.

This set may have been merged into some massive Karajan 100th birthday re-issues ...   

I like the original CD artwork though ...