Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)

[prémont]

I believe most of the more recent recordings Standage made (with Chandos) after he left the English Concert to found Collegium Musicum 90 have been Albinoni works ...

He has recorded two CDs containing Bach violin concertos with CM 90.

[Coopmv]

He has recorded two CDs containing Bach violin concertos with CM 90.

Are they both on Chandos?  I should check them out.

[prémont]

Are they both on Chandos?  I should check them out.

Yes, on Chandos

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Violin-Concertos-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B000000A6E/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1237049340&sr=1-7

and

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Violin-Concertos-Bach-Bonporti-Vivaldi/dp/B000000A4X/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1237049384&sr=1-13

[prémont]

Though I think, that his recordings with Pinnock (Archiv) are musically more satisfying and better recorded.

[Coopmv]

Though I think, that his recordings with Pinnock (Archiv) are musically more satisfying and better recorded.

You have a point there.  The ORIGINAL English Concert was something to treasure.  Today English Concert was nothing like it was 20 years ago.  The same could be said for the Academy of Ancient Music, which may have had a 100% turnover ...

[FideLeo]

You have a point there.  The ORIGINAL English Concert was something to treasure.  Today English Concert was nothing like it was 20 years ago.  The same could be said for the Academy of Ancient Music, which may have had a 100% turnover ...

Not sure about how valid these comparisons are - the ensemble in the Egarr/AAM Brandenburg sounds perfect when compared to the one in Hogwood/AAM Brandenburg. 

[prémont]

Not sure about how valid these comparisons are - the ensemble in the Egarr/AAM Brandenburg sounds perfect when compared to the one in Hogwood/AAM Brandenburg. 

Sometimes even better, I think. BTW it is two different bands. The only common denominator is the violist Trevor Jones.

[FideLeo]

Sometimes even better, I think. BTW it is two different bands. The only common denominator is the violist Trevor Jones.

We must bow to you, premont, when it comes to the discographies of these Bach pieces. 

[Bunny]

Not sure about how valid these comparisons are - the ensemble in the Egarr/AAM Brandenburg sounds perfect when compared to the one in Hogwood/AAM Brandenburg. 

They didn't sound perfect when I saw them doing the Brandenburgs in March.  In fact, they sounded out of tune and out of sync for the first movement of the Concerto No. 1.  It was sooo bad, I expected Egarr to stop the music and start over.  Second movement was a slight improvement but they didn't start actually making coherent music until the next piece which was strangely, No. 6, then followed by No.2.  Second half of the concert was much better (5,3,4). 

Egarr had some sort of agenda with the ordering -- all treble, all bass, numerology, instrumentation, etc.  He did some talks, but the numerology connection was far from convincing, as was his tale about German brothers, princes no less, wandering around and getting killed -- very Grimm.  I'm still not sure how it related to the music.  It was a bit hard to understand him as he doesn't project his voice that well, and didn't have a microphone.



Perhaps he was jet lagged, or was coming down with a cold. 

[FideLeo]

Perhaps he was jet lagged, or was coming down with a cold. 

Hmm - that is the first piece of negative reportage coming my way about their tour in North America; reading the Amazon review and concert reviews has given me impressions of quite the opposite: an ear-opener, sensational etc.  Accidentally, many of these positive reviews are from midwest and California.   Perhaps you are right that their lacklustre performance in NY was the consequence of a jet lag.

[Coopmv]

Not sure about how valid these comparisons are - the ensemble in the Egarr/AAM Brandenburg sounds perfect when compared to the one in Hogwood/AAM Brandenburg. 

But how many recordings have Egarr made with the AAM so far?

[Coopmv]

They didn't sound perfect when I saw them doing the Brandenburgs in March.  In fact, they sounded out of tune and out of sync for the first movement of the Concerto No. 1.  It was sooo bad, I expected Egarr to stop the music and start over.  Second movement was a slight improvement but they didn't start actually making coherent music until the next piece which was strangely, No. 6, then followed by No.2.  Second half of the concert was much better (5,3,4). 

Egarr had some sort of agenda with the ordering -- all treble, all bass, numerology, instrumentation, etc.  He did some talks, but the numerology connection was far from convincing, as was his tale about German brothers, princes no less, wandering around and getting killed -- very Grimm.  I'm still not sure how it related to the music.  It was a bit hard to understand him as he doesn't project his voice that well, and didn't have a microphone.



Perhaps he was jet lagged, or was coming down with a cold. 

I would not be singing praises of the reorganized AAM this fast.  Former violinists like Monica Huggett and Catherine Macintosh were both outstanding with the original AAM under Hogwood.  Are their current replacements every bit as good? While I generally like Richard Egarr and have a few of his recordings, it will take him considerably longer time to bring the current AAM back to its former glory ...

[Bulldog]

But how many recordings have Egarr made with the AAM so far?

I believe the number is 3. 

[Coopmv]

I believe the number is 3. 

I would have to wait until they have made at least a dozen of solid recordings before I would declare the AAM is back.

[FideLeo]

Former violinists like Monica Huggett and Catherine Macintosh were both outstanding with the original AAM under Hogwood.  Are their current replacements every bit as good?

Yes if we are talking about them as an ensemble, not as a bunch of "outstanding" soloists.

[Bunny]

I would not be singing praises of the reorganized AAM this fast.  Former violinists like Monica Huggett and Catherine Macintosh were both outstanding with the original AAM under Hogwood.  Are their current replacements every bit as good? While I generally like Richard Egarr and have a few of his recordings, it will take him considerably longer time to bring the current AAM back to its former glory ...

Yes if we are talking about them as an ensemble, not as a bunch of "outstanding" soloists.

Sorry, but the worst thing about the performance in Zankel Hall was the fact that when they started they weren't "ensemble."  The horns were in and out of tune, the violins were out of sync, and Egarr started shaking his head around like someone with a bizarre form of palsy in order to afford some musical direction.  Bach's music, which is the most structured of all had no discernible structure.  Themes fought for dominance, with none clearly the winner.  I think the first thing Egarr needs to do is get a new harpsichordist so that he can keep everyone together when performing live.  His style of either furnishing no continuo while leading them, or no direction when playing except for his jerking head which was largely unobserved (or unseen) by most of the musicians, doesn't work in concert.  I know that there are some musicians who can lead from the keyboard, but Egarr has not yet developed that ability.  I also imagine that in order to lead from the keyboard as Suzuki does, you need an ensemble that runs like a clock, needing only the fewest and most subtle cues.  The AAM was not like that when I saw them.  As I never saw the group under Hogwood or Standage, I have no way to judge whether they have declined or whether this is just the way they have always been.  Unfortunately, recordings can not tell you how a group actually performs in live concert conditions, there are too many do-overs.

[Bunny]

As a follow up to this, I have to mention that a few weeks later I saw the English Concert in the same hall.  They were superb.  Their director, Harry Bicket, also conducting from the harpsichord, kept them in line. The soloist, counter tenor David Daniels was incredible in a program of Bach and Händel. 

Btw, the AAM performs in street clothing with some color guidelines, but far from the fancy dress of other groups.  They looked like a group of talented amateurs doing a weekend concert for their church group. The EC, in contrast performs in white tie and tails, which I at first found off-putting.  As they played I realized that their "uniform" dress reflected a performing discipline that had been lacking in the AAM.  They played with military precision and passion, whereas the AAM whether passionate or not, seemed merely casual.  Whatever the reasons, the performance I saw reflected a good group but far from a great one.  Just as Egarr's Goldbergs are interesting but not in the top tier, I found the AAM interesting not not great.  Perhaps on a different night they might have been great, but when you have paid a pretty price to sit in the hall, it's more than disappointing to find that a group is not consistently on a high level.

[FideLeo]

Just as Egarr's Goldbergs are interesting but not in the top tier, I found the AAM interesting not not great.  Perhaps on a different night they might have been great, but when you have paid a pretty price to sit in the hall, it's more than disappointing to find that a group is not consistently on a high level.

That's different from the impression I got from listening to the AAM's new recording of Brandenburg.   Egarr usually prefers more relaxed tempi (but not inflexibly slow) and honestly I am more forgiving of those things than you apparently are.  To me their Brandenburg is more than interesting as performances: the soloist formation shows no sloppiness to my ears but gives a superb clarity and a sense of intimacy which I like in this music.  I do encourage all to try out the recording - their ensemble there is hardly disappointing.

NY Times Review

[prémont]

To me their Brandenburg is more than interesting as performances: the soloist formation shows no sloppiness to my ears but gives a superb clarity and a sense of intimacy which I like in this music.  I do encourage all to try out the recording - their ensemble there is hardly disappointing.

I can confirm this. The low pitch and the "soft" approach as well as the OPPP results in a kind of intimacy which works in strong contrast to the more usual agressive HIP style (Fasolis, Musica Florea, Il Giardino -to name some). And the soloists are generally first rate, not the least the corno- and tromba-soloists. The only soloist, who is conspicuously below par, is Egarr himself in concerto no. 5, more precisely in his totally unstructured rendering of the solo cadenza in the first movement, a point zero in an otherwise interesting and rewarding interpretation of these works.

So we have got this fine recording from this ensemble, and nothing could be more uninteresting than how these musicians may happen to perform these works on some occational indisposed day in the US. Everybody knows that the performances of every musician differ from day to day, depending on indefinable circumstances.

[Antoine Marchand]

... and nothing could be more uninteresting than how these musicians may happen to perform these works on some occational indisposed day in the US. Everybody knows that the performances of every musician differ from day to day, depending on indefinable circumstances.

I disagree, Premont.

Why is supremely uninteresting to comment a concert? Especially in this case, when the criticism is exclusively about one live performance –an essential aspect of the musical life- and it is not extended to the recording. I don't see, for example, the advantages of the "military precision and passion" and the "uniforms" in music  , but Bunny certainly writes a detailed description of the moment.