Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)

[Coopmv]

Unfortunately, recordings can not tell you how a group actually performs in live concert conditions, there are too many do-overs.

Exactly.  A screwed-up recording session can be redone.  A live performance at a given venue is a one-shot event. 

[Coopmv]

Btw, the AAM performs in street clothing with some color guidelines, but far from the fancy dress of other groups.  They looked like a group of talented amateurs doing a weekend concert for their church group. The EC, in contrast performs in white tie and tails, which I at first found off-putting.  As they played I realized that their "uniform" dress reflected a performing discipline that had been lacking in the AAM.  They played with military precision and passion, whereas the AAM whether passionate or not, seemed merely casual.  Whatever the reasons, the performance I saw reflected a good group but far from a great one.  Just as Egarr's Goldbergs are interesting but not in the top tier, I found the AAM interesting not not great.  Perhaps on a different night they might have been great, but when you have paid a pretty price to sit in the hall, it's more than disappointing to find that a group is not consistently on a high level.

I think the AAM members dressing casual may be a reflection of the prevalent dress code over the past 10-15 years.  When I attended concerts at Carnegie Hall in the mid 80's, I never saw any man without at least a jacket and many with ties.  Within the past ten years, I have rarely seen people dressing "formal" at either Carnegie or Avery Fisher.  Call it a different era, when the AAM performed under Hogwood, its members were probably all formally dressed ...

[Bunny]

That's different from the impression I got from listening to the AAM's new recording of Brandenburg.   Egarr usually prefers more relaxed tempi (but not inflexibly slow) and honestly I am more forgiving of those things than you apparently are.  To me their Brandenburg is more than interesting as performances: the soloist formation shows no sloppiness to my ears but gives a superb clarity and a sense of intimacy which I like in this music.  I do encourage all to try out the recording - their ensemble there is hardly disappointing.

NY Times Review

First I would like to say that it is not the slower tempos to which I took exception, nor the lower pitch tuning.  It is the complete absence of rhythmic sense: the concertos just amble along like a lady with a parasol who wanders hither and yon, hurrying to admire a butterfly, or then stopping to smell a flower without any sense of purpose.  It's a pretty picture, but bland.  Yes there's the delicately twirled parasol (aka theorbo) but that's not enough to keep up the excitement, and these concertos should be breathtakingly exciting works. 

Btw the Times review does allude to the problems of the live performance, although I think the critic was extremely soft on the AAM.  This is a problem with the NY Times music critics in general nowadays: they never give a bad review to anything anymore, no matter how rotten the performance. 

I can confirm this. The low pitch and the "soft" approach as well as the OPPP results in a kind of intimacy which works in strong contrast to the more usual agressive HIP style (Fasolis, Musica Florea, Il Giardino -to name some). And the soloists are generally first rate, not the least the corno- and tromba-soloists. The only soloist, who is conspicuously below par, is Egarr himself in concerto no. 5, more precisely in his totally unstructured rendering of the solo cadenza in the first movement, a point zero in an otherwise interesting and rewarding interpretation of these works.

So we have got this fine recording from this ensemble, and nothing could be more uninteresting than how these musicians may happen to perform these works on some occational indisposed day in the US. Everybody knows that the performances of every musician differ from day to day, depending on indefinable circumstances.

First, this is not intimate music.  It's music composed for a ducal court, which in Weimar or Brandenburg was a formal, if rustic setting.  The most intimate performance of these works was probably at the Cafe Zimmermann, which was a masculine hang-out.  I'll bet performances there had to fight the noise, and got the feet stamping.  Bach was someone with earthy tastes -- cabbages and radishes indeed!  Egarr has prettified these concertos and feminized them to a degree that I for one didn't care for.

It's all very well to say that it doesn't matter what a group is capable of, or not capable of in live performance on a given day so long as the recording is excellent, but that devalues the craft of musicianship.  A great ensemble is great live.  Period.  If it cannot rise to certain performance standards when performing in concert, then they are no better than Milli Vanilli or Joyce Hatto.  We know all of the studio wizardry that can be added in post-production to create a great recording.  In Classical Music this can never be an acceptable alternative to excellent musicianship.  I heard a sloppy, mediocre ensemble that has mysteriously produced a "great" recording.  I'm not buying it.  Let someone else keep them in business.

As to Mr. Egarr's harpsichord, I suggested that he get another harpsichordist.  He produced either a lot of head shaking and overly intrusive continuo or hand waving and no continuo.  As for his solo in the 5th: well, I agree he is not one of the great harpsichordists of his generation, as he demonstrated with his Goldbergs.

[Bunny]

I disagree, Premont.

Why is supremely uninteresting to comment a concert? Especially in this case, when the criticism is exclusively about one live performance –an essential aspect of the musical life- and it is not extended to the recording. I don't see, for example, the advantages of the "military precision and passion" and the "uniforms" in music  , but Bunny certainly writes a detailed description of the moment.

Mars and Venus are always important to music.  At least for me during the Brandenburgs. 

[prémont]

First, this is not intimate music.  It's music composed for a ducal court, which in Weimar or Brandenburg was a formal, if rustic setting. 

I think you are wrong. Except perhaps Concerto no.1, this is intimate music, intended to be played by a small group of musicians in a rather small room. Egarr´s recording stress this intimacy, and adds some interesting perspectives to the music, I think.

[prémont]

I disagree, Premont.

You are certainly welcome.

Why is supremely uninteresting to comment a concert? Especially in this case, when the criticism is exclusively about one live performance –an essential aspect of the musical life- and it is not extended to the recording. I don't see, for example, the advantages of the "military precision and passion" and the "uniforms" in music  , but Bunny certainly writes a detailed description of the moment.

I disagree, Antoine. I think Bunny implicit uses the unsuccessful concert event to detract from the recording.

[Bulldog]

As to Mr. Egarr's harpsichord, I suggested that he get another harpsichordist.  He produced either a lot of head shaking and overly intrusive continuo or hand waving and no continuo.  As for his solo in the 5th: well, I agree he is not one of the great harpsichordists of his generation, as he demonstrated with his Goldbergs.

I'm not quite ready to dismiss Egarr as a performer of Bach's solo keyboard works.  Like Bunny, I don't care much for his Goldbergs, but he does a much better job with the WTC I where I find his rhythmic flexibility in the form of hesitiatons and staggering of musical lines compelling.

[Bunny]

I think you are wrong. Except perhaps Concerto no.1, this is intimate music, intended to be played by a small group of musicians in a rather small room. Egarr´s recording stress this intimacy, and adds some interesting perspectives to the music, I think.

How about the 2nd concerto?  Did you ever hear a trumpet in a small room?  Not very pleasant for anyone in the room including the trumpeter.  Certainly Bach's ensemble of "plusieurs instruments" was not the size of a Mahlerian orchestra, but the music itself is not intimate sounding.  It is formal music: music for a ducal court, and dedicated to the Margrave of Brandenburg.  I cannot believe that Bach did not envision its use as part of the court rituals.  That is a far cry from truly intimate works such as his sonatas for violin and keyboard, suites for solo cello, or Goldberg Variations which are true chamber works in their scale. 

In fact, parts of the concertos were reworked from music used in the Cantatas, and they certainly were not "intimate" works.

[Coopmv]

How about the 2nd concerto?  Did you ever hear a trumpet in a small room?  Not very pleasant for anyone in the room including the trumpeter.  Certainly Bach's ensemble of "plusieurs instruments" was not the size of a Mahlerian orchestra, but the music itself is not intimate sounding.  It is formal music: music for a ducal court, and dedicated to the Margrave of Brandenburg.  I cannot believe that Bach did not envision its use as part of the court rituals.  That is a far cry from truly intimate works such as his sonatas for violin and keyboard, suites for solo cello, or Goldberg Variations which are true chamber works in their scale. 

You are correct.  While Brandenburg Concertos were probably not intended for very large concert hall, they also are not meant to be performed in venue which is appropriate for chamber music either ...

[Bunny]

I'm not quite ready to dismiss Egarr as a performer of Bach's solo keyboard works.  Like Bunny, I don't care much for his Goldbergs, but he does a much better job with the WTC I where I find his rhythmic flexibility in the form of hesitiatons and staggering of musical lines compelling.

I haven't felt the need to buy his WTC because I didn't care for his Goldbergs, nor did I find his cd "Per Cembalo Solo" in the top tier.  However, my suggestion that he get another harpsichordist really has to do with his difficulties multitasking in performance: he had problems directing the ensemble while playing continuo.  I got to see the Richard Egarr bobble head doll that night, and it was not pretty.

[Coopmv]

I haven't felt the need to buy his WTC because I didn't care for his Goldbergs, nor did I find his cd "Per Cembalo Solo" in the top tier.  However, my suggestion that he get another harpsichordist really has to do with his difficulties multitasking in performance: he had problems directing the ensemble while playing continuo.  I got to see the Richard Egarr bobble head doll that night, and it was not pretty.

Are you of the opinion that Richard Egarr may be a better harpsichordist than either Trevor Pinnock or Christopher Hogwood, he just somehow does not measure up to Pinnock or Hogwood in terms of his ability for multi-tasking?  Both Pinnock and Hogwood conducted from the harpsichord on a regular basis at the peak of their careers.  In fact, I saw Pinnock doing just that at a concert I attended over 20 years ago at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC ...

[71 dB]

For long I had only one recording of Brandenburg Concertos and Orchestral Suites:

Brandenburg Concertos Nos. 1-6 - Capella Istropolitana / Bohdan Warchal - Naxos 8.520007
Orchestral Suites Nos. 1-4 - Capella Istropolitana / Jaroslav Dvorák - Naxos 8.554043

I was into the suites much more. Recently I bought the 3 CD box of all these works played by The English Concert/Trevor Pinnock. The Brandenburg Concertos are awesome, but I don't warm up to Pinnock's suites. Somehow the "budget" Naxos disc remains my favorite with them. 

[FideLeo]

You are correct.  While Brandenburg Concertos were probably not intended for very large concert hall, they also are not meant to be performed in venue which is appropriate for chamber music either ...

"Chamber music" is the key term here - how it is defined seems to vary in context, and mentioning only the sonatas etc. for the genre is radical to me.  If b-minor mass was intended to be sung with 2 voices per part, I don't see why the Brandenburgs, even as background to court proceedings, couldn't have been performed with one musician per part.

[FideLeo]

In fact, parts of the concertos were reworked from music used in the Cantatas, and they certainly were not "intimate" works.

What about the remaining parts?  That some works were not conceived with "intimate" ideas does not mean they were never performed in "intimate" settings.  The prelude to the 3rd partita for solo vn was reworked from a cantata symphony.

[FideLeo]

Why is supremely uninteresting to comment a concert? Especially in this case, when the criticism is exclusively about one live performance –an essential aspect of the musical life- and it is not extended to the recording.

Well recordings (and their reviews) are the focus in this part of the forum, which is about "Great Recordings and Reviews."  I suppose there are other parts of the music room that better accommodate concert reviews?

[prémont]

How about the 2nd concerto?  Did you ever hear a trumpet in a small room?  Not very pleasant for anyone in the room including the trumpeter.

Yes if you think of a modern trumpet this is of course true. So much more reason to play upon baroque instruments and to play soft.

Certainly Bach's ensemble of "plusieurs instruments" was not the size of a Mahlerian orchestra, but the music itself is not intimate sounding.  It is formal music: music for a ducal court, and dedicated to the Margrave of Brandenburg.

I think the word "Concertos" in the title has mislead a lot of people to regard these works as symphonic music, and reminicences of this attitude are still present.

In fact, parts of the concertos were reworked from music used in the Cantatas, and they certainly were not "intimate" works.

This is not true. The only extant example is the first movement of Concerto no.3, and the reworking was the other way round, the Brandenburg movement being arranged for the Cantata, with the adding of a host of wind instruments and a complete ripieno string group. Some other examples in the same vein are some of Bach´s orchestral suites, which in their original Cöthen version were intimate music for a few strings, but later in Leipzig were rearranged with the adding of more wind instruments.

[prémont]

I'm not quite ready to dismiss Egarr as a performer of Bach's solo keyboard works.  Like Bunny, I don't care much for his Goldbergs, but he does a much better job with the WTC I where I find his rhythmic flexibility in the form of hesitiatons and staggering of musical lines compelling.

Exactly where I find him (and even Parmentier) contrieved, in contrast to e.g. Leonhardt and Wilson.

Each to his own.

[Antoine Marchand]

I disagree, Antoine. I think Bunny implicit uses the unsuccessful concert event to detract from the recording.

I end up agreeing with you, Premont. I was too much naïve.

Bunny deceived me. 

[Bunny]

Yes if you think of a modern trumpet this is of course true. So much more reason to play upon baroque instruments and to play soft.

I think the word "Concertos" in the title has mislead a lot of people to regard these works as symphonic music, and reminicences of this attitude are still present.
This is not true. The only extant example is the first movement of Concerto no.3, and the reworking was the other way round, the Brandenburg movement being arranged for the Cantata, with the adding of a host of wind instruments and a complete ripieno string group. Some other examples in the same vein are some of Bach´s orchestral suites, which in their original Cöthen version were intimate music for a few strings, but later in Leipzig were rearranged with the adding of more wind instruments.

As I don't have my laptop available, and must use my iPod to respond, please excuse poor spelling and punctuation!

I have been listening to the 2nd Concerto as done by Pinnock & EC; I Barocchisti; Concerto Italiano; and last by Cafe Zimmermann on their most recent album Concerts avec Plusieurs Instruments Vol 4. The trumpet was in Bach's time an instrument used on the battlefield to communicate various troop movements, as it continued to be used into the early 20th century. The idea that the trumpet should be even thought of as a Chamber instrument is ludicrous. Even if one supposes that the volume, without muting, can be modulated to a level comfortable in a small chamber which I sincerely doubt, the trumpet was used off the battlefield mostly for formal processionals (outdoors and in churches), fanfares, etc. rather than as an instrument for dancing or even as for background for dining. Tafelmusik was usually scored for groups of string instruments, or woodwinds, or reeds rather than brass instruments.

I'm very sorry, but merely assigning one player per part cannot convince me that Bach conceived of these concertos as intimately scaled works. The very number of instruments used suggests otherwise, except perhaps the 6th concerto which is scored for viols da gamba, an instrument of less native volume than their cousins in the violon family. Even then, one must remember that the greatest viol player was Marin Marais and he was situated at the court of Louis XIV, a setting that was formal even at it's most intimate and personal levels.

No, these concertos are many things, but they should never be thought of as small in scale.
   

[Bunny]

BTW, I don't think of them as symphonic at all.  Thereis more range in Baroque music than chamber and church. Is it so hard to envision music on a larger scale?  Clearly Music for the opera is the Baroque eqivalent of symphonic music if not the same exact thing.  Bach's concerti are similarly scaled for a larger hall than a chamber (the older word for bedroom even as cabinet was the original word for "office").  Egarr has transformed these works by scaling them down, and for me the result is problematic.  They are like a miniature representation, pretty but so pale in comparison to other performances such as Goebel's, Pinnock's, Alessandrini's, the Akademie fur alte Musik Berlin, and so many others. I have begun to think of them as the anti-Brandenburg Concertos as they remind me too much of performances of Bach's concerti by ensembles that are also scaled wrongly by being too large.

It has become very apparent to me that original instruments cannot guarntee excellence or even intelligence. They can only guarantee a particular sound.