Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)

Started by Que, May 19, 2007, 12:07:32 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bulldog

Quote from: Coopmv on March 24, 2010, 06:35:56 PM
I still remember how impressed I was with this all star lineup in the early 80's when these two singles were released.  This version of Brandenburg Concertos is still among my all-time favorites, even though I probably have most of the HIP versions in my collection as well.





You really like Marriner's Bach?  I find it has nothing to offer.  Actually, I think Marriner's the most overrated conductor still alive.  He can well handle a Mozart serenade or divertimento, but that's about it.

Scarpia

Quote from: Bulldog on March 29, 2010, 01:12:29 PM
You really like Marriner's Bach?  I find it has nothing to offer.  Actually, I think Marriner's the most overrated conductor still alive.  He can well handle a Mozart serenade or divertimento, but that's about it.

Furthermore, I don't think the virtuoso soloists are important in Bach, it is all about ensemble.  For a thoroughly non-HIP Brandenburg set I like I Musici, also on Philips. 



I don't think I have a single disc of Marriner recordings left in my collection at this point.

Antoine Marchand

#262
Quote from: Bulldog on March 29, 2010, 01:12:29 PM
Actually, I think Marriner's the most overrated conductor still alive.

;D


P.S.: Probably the best version on modern instrument:

Wendy Carlos: Switched-on Brandenburgs


jlaurson

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 29, 2010, 01:43:03 PM
P.S.: Probably the best version on modern instrument:
Wendy Carlos: Switched-on Brandenburgs


Yeesh. Talk about from the frying pan into the fire. Marinner is to regular instruments what I Musici is to "HIP". Nah... I Musici is actually worse than that. Sewing machine Italo-pre-HIPness that is inflexible, unmusical, stilted...

I do agree about W.Carlos' Bach, though!

Scarpia

Quote from: jlaurson on March 29, 2010, 03:12:32 PM
Yeesh. Talk about from the frying pan into the fire. Marinner is to regular instruments what I Musici is to "HIP". Nah... I Musici is actually worse than that. Sewing machine Italo-pre-HIPness that is inflexible, unmusical, stilted...

I do not find any inflexibility or stiltedness in I Musici.

Coopmv

Quote from: Scarpia on March 29, 2010, 01:20:21 PM
Furthermore, I don't think the virtuoso soloists are important in Bach, it is all about ensemble.  For a thoroughly non-HIP Brandenburg set I like I Musici, also on Philips. 



I don't think I have a single disc of Marriner recordings left in my collection at this point.

I have close to 30 versions of Brandenburg Concertos.  My Brandenburg Concertos by I Musici is actually on LP.  I found the tempos confusing and it definitely is not one of my favorite version.  I just found the Marriner's version one of the better one performed on non-period instruments and that all-star lineup does have its attraction.

mc ukrneal

Quote from: jlaurson on March 29, 2010, 03:12:32 PM
Yeesh. Talk about from the frying pan into the fire. Marinner is to regular instruments what I Musici is to "HIP". Nah... I Musici is actually worse than that. Sewing machine Italo-pre-HIPness that is inflexible, unmusical, stilted...

I do agree about W.Carlos' Bach, though!

Those are so modern that I quite think they've come round to the other side!!
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Marc

My fave Brandenburgers on non-HIP instrumentarium:



And, even though I'm not a fan of Richter's style in general, I'm 'afraid' I will always have a weak spot for this one:



Marriner is definitely not my cup of tea in Bach, he makes me fall asleep, but I do like some of his Haydn symphonies, Mozart choral stuff and also some of Wolfie's opera's.

The new erato

One of the first CDs I bought in the 90-ies was this:



(then, I think, on the Astree label) and it was so good that I have never sought out another version of these concertoes!

DavidRoss

Quote from: erato on March 30, 2010, 04:21:25 AM

...so good that I have never sought out another version of these concertoes!
Yes indeedy!  Not that there aren't other fine ones, such as the delightful Il Giardino Armonico recording...but that distinctive dark, woody sound of Savall's group adds just the right touch of heft for my tastes.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

jlaurson

Quote from: Marc on March 30, 2010, 04:12:39 AM
My fave Brandenburgers on non-HIP instrumentarium:

[IMG width=15-]http://i43.tinypic.com/14slhj5.jpg[/img]

I've always been under the impression (not the least having heard their St.M.P. live at the Concertgebouw) that they, Comb.Amst., were a HIP instrumented group.

kishnevi

I'll put in a word for this recording.


One of the very first CD sets I purchased, and my introduction to HIP;  the editorial review at Amazon seems to be talking through his hat, as far as I'm concerned.

Bulldog

Quote from: kishnevi on March 30, 2010, 08:29:30 PM
I'll put in a word for this recording.


One of the very first CD sets I purchased, and my introduction to HIP;  the editorial review at Amazon seems to be talking through his hat, as far as I'm concerned.

Great set with fantastic brass.

Marc

Quote from: jlaurson on March 30, 2010, 12:20:25 PM
I've always been under the impression (not the least having heard their St.M.P. live at the Concertgebouw) that they, Comb.Amst., were a HIP instrumented group.
Combattimento Amsterdam plays on modern instruments, yet they've specialzed themselves in ancient music (mainly 17th & 18th century), with adaptation of many HIP-developments. One could call them semi-HIP. ;)
BTW: indeed, on some occasions old instruments are more or less incorporated, like brass sections or the strings on violins et cetera. Like f.i. Harnoncourt and Mackerass have done/are doing also when conducting 'modern' ensembles.

DarkAngel

Quote from: kishnevi on March 30, 2010, 08:29:30 PM
I'll put in a word for this recording.


One of the very first CD sets I purchased, and my introduction to HIP;  the editorial review at Amazon seems to be talking through his hat, as far as I'm concerned.

Very fast tempos even by todays standards, one of my favorite Brandenburg sets also, easy to get as part of the 2CD Panorama series - Bach Vol I with some other bonus material:



Recently I decided to go full monty and get the Goebel boxset of Bach works, no regrets.....


Marc

Quote from: Bulldog on March 30, 2010, 08:42:55 PM
[About the Brandenburg Concertos by Musica Antiqua Köln]
Great set with fantastic brass.
Unfortunately, Goebel left the Period-Instruments-Building about 4 years ago, after he decided to quit with his Musica Antiqua Köln.

In one of the interviews I've read in those days (in German and Dutch magazines/newspapers) he stated that he was almost literally 'sick' of the period instruments movement, which had 'developed' itself in a conceiting bunch of people, who played their ancient music without the right principles, skills, expression and intensity, yet on the so-called right instruments. Goebel especially disliked the anglo-saxon part of the movement (he named a.o. Gardiner, Pinnock, McCreesh, Minkowski, Curtis), who were mainly producing slick and flat performances, IHO.
He also mentioned an ensemble like Il Giardino Armonico, which was extremly popular for some years, but had, IHO, bad instrumentalists.

According to Goebel, this was partly caused by strict specialism concerning the instruments that 'had' to be played. Young musicians started playing on ancient instruments far too soon, without learning to play Beethoven, Brahms or Stravinsky before that. This development had lead to underskilled PI musicians. Goebel himself couldn't get skilled young PI musicians like the way he wanted them any more, which made it more difficult to continue with his MAK ensemble.

On the other hand, Goebel said that he still loved ancient music very much and was especially pleased with the attitude of 'modern' instrumentalists and (chamber) orchestras, in whose attitude he recognized the same drive and ambitions that the HIP-momevement had in its earlier days. Apart from that, they were far better skilled than most young PI musicians.

Goebel also stated that the HIP-problems were caused by the fact that the large record labels (like DG, his 'own' label) only or mainly wanted to produce new ancient music recordings with PI ensembles. And a lot of those new PI ensembles and conductors didn't have the right attitude, IHO. Goebel immensly disliked the attitude that the instrument was more important than the performer. I remember a sentence like music making is in your head, not in your instrument.

Goebel was asked if his statements were caused by embitterment. And yes, he admitted he felt scoffed by DG. The 'new' slick PI ensembles sold very good, which meant that his MAK became less important to DG during the years. This development made it growingly difficult to finance his ensemble. So, eventually he decided to quit.

To conclude: I'm only summarizing Goebel's statements. I did not include my own opinions. When I first read it, I shook my head several times, because indeed the sound of bitterness seemed to be prevailing.
But yes, I agree with him that a certain amount of PI performances nowadays seem to sound perfect, yet lack some necessary soul. Herreweghe's performances have softened during the years, and f.i. the rather praised SMP recording of McCreesh is immensely dull to my ears.

To me, Musica Antiqua Köln was indeed a great ensemble, who dared to HIT both the scores and their instruments in an attractive and intense way. It's a pity they're not around anymore.

Antoine Marchand

#276
What means "IHO"?

I got it: "in his opinion".