Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)

[Coopmv]

I bought this set a few months ago, it is indeed an excellent set.  I enjoyed the contrast between the relatively fast-paced Brandenburg Concertos from this set and my other two dozen plus versions.   

[Antoine Marchand]

I bought this set a few months ago, it is indeed an excellent set.  I enjoyed the contrast between the relatively fast-paced Brandenburg Concertos from this set and my other two dozen plus versions.

One month ago I purchased a version perhaps more "abominable" than Musica Antiqua Köhln; it's the version by Il Giardino Armonico, included in an 11-CD box set. But I have not listened them yet.    

[Coopmv]

Unfortunately, Goebel left the Period-Instruments-Building about 4 years ago, after he decided to quit with his Musica Antiqua Köln.

In one of the interviews I've read in those days (in German and Dutch magazines/newspapers) he stated that he was almost literally 'sick' of the period instruments movement, which had 'developed' itself in a conceiting bunch of people, who played their ancient music without the right principles, skills, expression and intensity, yet on the so-called right instruments. Goebel especially disliked the anglo-saxon part of the movement (he named a.o. Gardiner, Pinnock, McCreesh, Minkowski, Curtis), who were mainly producing slick and flat performances, IHO.
He also mentioned an ensemble like Il Giardino Armonico, which was extremly popular for some years, but had, IHO, bad instrumentalists.

According to Goebel, this was partly caused by strict specialism concerning the instruments that 'had' to be played. Young musicians started playing on ancient instruments far too soon, without learning to play Beethoven, Brahms or Stravinsky before that. This development had lead to underskilled PI musicians. Goebel himself couldn't get skilled young PI musicians like the way he wanted them any more, which made it more difficult to continue with his MAK ensemble.

On the other hand, Goebel said that he still loved ancient music very much and was especially pleased with the attitude of 'modern' instrumentalists and (chamber) orchestras, in whose attitude he recognized the same drive and ambitions that the HIP-momevement had in its earlier days. Apart from that, they were far better skilled than most young PI musicians.

Goebel also stated that the HIP-problems were caused by the fact that the large record labels (like DG, his 'own' label) only or mainly wanted to produce new ancient music recordings with PI ensembles. And a lot of those new PI ensembles and conductors didn't have the right attitude, IHO. Goebel immensly disliked the attitude that the instrument was more important than the performer. I remember a sentence like music making is in your head, not in your instrument.

Goebel was asked if his statements were caused by embitterment. And yes, he admitted he felt scoffed by DG. The 'new' slick PI ensembles sold very good, which meant that his MAK became less important to DG during the years. This development made it growingly difficult to finance his ensemble. So, eventually he decided to quit.

To conclude: I'm only summarizing Goebel's statements. I did not include my own opinions. When I first read it, I shook my head several times, because indeed the sound of bitterness seemed to be prevailing.
But yes, I agree with him that a certain amount of PI performances nowadays seem to sound perfect, yet lack some necessary soul. Herreweghe's performances have softened during the years, and f.i. the rather praised SMP recording of McCreesh is immensely dull to my ears.

To me, Musica Antiqua Köln was indeed a great ensemble, who dared to HIT both the scores and their instruments in an attractive and intense way. It's a pity they're not around anymore.

Marc,  Thanks for sharing the info, which probably would not have been available in the English press.  While Musica Antiqua Köln was a fine ensemble, I too think Trevor Pinnock and his English Concert were just outstanding during their golden era in the 1980's and in fact I went on a date attending their performance at the Metropolitan Museum in NYC in the summer of 1986.  Reinhardt Goebel no doubt got the cold shoulder as Pinnock and Gardiner were flying high and delivered stellar profits for DG Archive in the 1980's and beyond.  His bitterness toward the English ensembles is quite understandable.  I do, however, share his view that the HIP movement is much overdone.  There are just too many ensembles out there that are on that bandwagon.  That is why I sometime enjoy listening to the Brandenburg Concertos performed by Karajan and the BPO just to take a break from the HIP frenzy ...

[Coopmv]

It probably is a good thing that I have not pulled the trigger on this Handel Concerti Grossi, Op. 6 by Il Giardino Armonico.  I do not own any recordings by this ensemble ...

[Bunny]

Unfortunately, Goebel left the Period-Instruments-Building about 4 years ago, after he decided to quit with his Musica Antiqua Köln.

In one of the interviews I've read in those days (in German and Dutch magazines/newspapers) he stated that he was almost literally 'sick' of the period instruments movement, which had 'developed' itself in a conceiting bunch of people, who played their ancient music without the right principles, skills, expression and intensity, yet on the so-called right instruments. Goebel especially disliked the anglo-saxon part of the movement (he named a.o. Gardiner, Pinnock, McCreesh, Minkowski, Curtis), who were mainly producing slick and flat performances, IHO.
He also mentioned an ensemble like Il Giardino Armonico, which was extremly popular for some years, but had, IHO, bad instrumentalists.

According to Goebel, this was partly caused by strict specialism concerning the instruments that 'had' to be played. Young musicians started playing on ancient instruments far too soon, without learning to play Beethoven, Brahms or Stravinsky before that. This development had lead to underskilled PI musicians. Goebel himself couldn't get skilled young PI musicians like the way he wanted them any more, which made it more difficult to continue with his MAK ensemble.

On the other hand, Goebel said that he still loved ancient music very much and was especially pleased with the attitude of 'modern' instrumentalists and (chamber) orchestras, in whose attitude he recognized the same drive and ambitions that the HIP-momevement had in its earlier days. Apart from that, they were far better skilled than most young PI musicians.

Goebel also stated that the HIP-problems were caused by the fact that the large record labels (like DG, his 'own' label) only or mainly wanted to produce new ancient music recordings with PI ensembles. And a lot of those new PI ensembles and conductors didn't have the right attitude, IHO. Goebel immensly disliked the attitude that the instrument was more important than the performer. I remember a sentence like music making is in your head, not in your instrument.

Goebel was asked if his statements were caused by embitterment. And yes, he admitted he felt scoffed by DG. The 'new' slick PI ensembles sold very good, which meant that his MAK became less important to DG during the years. This development made it growingly difficult to finance his ensemble. So, eventually he decided to quit.

To conclude: I'm only summarizing Goebel's statements. I did not include my own opinions. When I first read it, I shook my head several times, because indeed the sound of bitterness seemed to be prevailing.
But yes, I agree with him that a certain amount of PI performances nowadays seem to sound perfect, yet lack some necessary soul. Herreweghe's performances have softened during the years, and f.i. the rather praised SMP recording of McCreesh is immensely dull to my ears.

To me, Musica Antiqua Köln was indeed a great ensemble, who dared to HIT both the scores and their instruments in an attractive and intense way. It's a pity they're not around anymore.

Was there no mention of his devastating motorcycle accident, and how it resulted in problems with his right hand and arm?  He was forced to learn to play the violin fingering with the right hand and bowing with the left and while he still plays, it is not at the same level as  before the accident.   I'm sure that had as much to do with the diminishment of the MAK at DG as anything else.

[Marc]

Was there no mention of his devastating motorcycle accident, and how it resulted in problems with his right hand and arm?  He was forced to learn to play the violin fingering with the right hand and bowing with the left and while he still plays, it is not at the same level as  before the accident.  I'm sure that had as much to do with the diminishment of the MAK at DG as anything else.

If I remember it well: it was mentioned indeed. But he had been a left handed violinst already since 1990, so if that was the main raison my guess would be that he would have stopped playing earlier. In the interview itself he was mainly complaining about the indolence of the HIP/PI-movement.

In a later article (2008? 2009?) in the Dutch Volkskrant Goebel admitted though that he wasn't as good as a 'lefty' as he was as a 'righty'. But he could have continued with MAK .... as artistic director or as conductor! Because that's what he's been doing the last three years. Though mainly not with Period Instuments. He has conducted f.i. the Brabants Orkest (Netherlands) and in Germany he has conducted Dittersdorf's comic Singspiel Doktor und Apotheker, with young vocal and instrumental students of the Musikakademie Rheinsberg, Germany.

Oh, did Goebel have another HIP-thing to complain about, in that more recent article?
YES, HE DID!
He was complaining about all the lutes, theorbes and chitaronnes that were added to the basso continuo in almost every baroque composition, which made a lot of serious compositions sound like some kind of Carnival. And, besides that, because of the long 'necks' rising above the orchestra, it looked like half the continuo section was suffering from an erection ....



If, in the future, no one in the musical world wants Herr Goebel anymore, my guess is that he could always earn his money as a stand up comedian!

[The new erato]

Oh, did Goebel have another HIP-thing to complain about, in that more recent article?
YES, HE DID!
He was complaining about all the lutes, theorbes and chitaronnes that were added to the basso continuo in almost every baroque composition, which made a lot of serious compositions sound like some kind of Carnival.

Here's another guy who positively hates the current unidiomatic fashion for adding strummed instruments to recordings of baroque music:

http://www.newolde.com/

[Marc]

Here's another guy who positively hates the current unidiomatic fashion for adding strummed instruments to recordings of baroque music:

http://www.newolde.com/

I admit: I prefer f.i. Bach's vocal church compositions with only an organ in the continuo. BUT: if Goebel is claiming that 'music making is in one's head and NOT in the instruments', then complaints like those are laughable IMO.
In the Netherlands, I have read more articles or forum attributions where scholars or scholastic performers/listeners did complain f.i. about the performances and recordings of René Jacobs. According to them, Jacobs' views had nothing to do with historical reality anymore.

Question is though: is such rebuilding of a so-called historical reality necessary to make or enjoy music?

Well, to me that is a rhetorical question.

[The new erato]

Question is though: is such rebuilding of a so-called historical reality necessary to make or enjoy music?

But then; why claim to be a HIP ensemble? If one is allowed to do anything that sounds good, the HIP movement has no leg to stand on.

[Marc]

But then; why claim to be a HIP ensemble? If one is allowed to do anything that sounds good, the HIP movement has no leg to stand on.

Did they ever?

Of course, this is all a matter of opinion.

Even though I prefer myself so-called HIP performances (since I started listening to baroque music at the age of about 12 or 13) I have always found words like authentic or historically informed rather arrogant. As if they were the only ones who really knew and were doing the right thing.
Now come on! Karl Richter and Eugen Jochum were historically informed, too, but not as thorough and scholastic maybe than Gustav Leonhardt. And apparently they had their own ideas they wanted to use, too. So what?
(Don't get me wrong: I prefer Leonhardt in baroque music by miles and miles and miles.)

HIP, as an 'invention' or even 'revolution' in music making will always get my vote. I really think it's fantastic that HIP has given us performances on 'authentic instruments' with more and closer attention to the original context and scores. Why? Well, for historical reasons of course, but MAINLY because I personally like it that way!

But it's definitely NOT the only way of music making. And in many contributions (in magazines or online boards) of HIP performers or HIP lovers during the years I have sensed a certain we know and you do not attitude. So, even though those contributions did contain some very interesting points (like the remarks of Goebel in his interviews, and the articles, contributions and interviews of many others) I do not intend to take them dramatically seriously in the end. I've read so many interviews with HIP performers who were accusing other performers (HIP or non-HIP) for doing so-called wrong things that in a way I felt like I was in the middle of some religious sect and their internal battles.

And yes, in a way, this HIP-sect has been that thoroughly compartmentalized, that the entire movement, as a united movement that is, has no leg to stand on anymore. It proofs that, in the end, music making is a personal thing. It proofs that, with the same 'correct' historical information, Hogwood and Norrington can decide diffently about tempi or articulation or phrasing or ornamenting et cetera, as with Leonhardt and Harnoncourt, Koopman and Herreweghe, McCreesh and Van Veldhoven, et cetera and et al. So yes, I support Goebel's remark music making is in your head and not in your instrument, but the funny thing is that he, whilst talking about other heads, is not able to conform himself to his own principle.

I don't want to punish him for that, though. My experience is: he's not the only one who apparently can't stand by his own principles all the time .... me, myself and I, and millions of others join that band so many times.
I remember once reading a fine sentence in a a Dutch novella by a certain Oek de Jong, in which the main character stated something like every principle needs inconsistency. It makes the principle even more desirable.

You see, in the end I'm always a positivo!

[Que]

Anyone heard this yet?



at jpc

Q

[Scarpia]

Here's another guy who positively hates the current unidiomatic fashion for adding strummed instruments to recordings of baroque music:

http://www.newolde.com/

I revile those strummed instruments, they are generally a deal-breaker for me.

[Que]

Pointing out this new reissue, which seems a great bargain (17 euros at jpc).



Q

[Antoine Marchand]

Pointing out this new reissue, which seems a great bargain (17 euros at jpc).



Q

Damn! I don't have those Orchestral Suites.

[The new erato]

Pointing out this new reissue, which seems a great bargain (17 euros at jpc).



Q

This series is significantly cheaper at amazon.fr, I'd guess 11 Euros (without having checked).

[Antoine Marchand]

This series is significantly cheaper at amazon.fr, I'd guess 11 Euros (without having checked).

Just checked and it's right.

I have one of those boxes (Gould playing Beethoven piano concertos) and it didn't include liner notes. Is that the case in the other boxes?

[jlaurson]

Just checked and it's right.

I have one of those boxes (Gould playing Beethoven piano concertos) and it didn't include liner notes. Is that the case in the other boxes?

All without liner notes, sadly. Very, very no-frill release series.

[Antoine Marchand]

All without liner notes, sadly. Very, very no-frill release series.

Thanks, Jens.

[prémont]

Just checked and it's right.

I have one of those boxes (Gould playing Beethoven piano concertos) and it didn't include liner notes. Is that the case in the other boxes?

I can supply you with information about the names of the players in the Bach Suites if you want.

[Oldnslow]

I have the recent Bach suites by the Concerto Koln on Berlin Classics, and find it excellent. I would call it middle of the road HIP, which is just fine by me. Along with  Ronaldo Alissindrini's  Concerto Italian Bradenburgs on Naive, they are two superb sets of these great pieces.