Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)

[Coopmv]

I guess that makes me even more selective than you are....

BTW, I will upload Kuijken's 3rd concerto after our exchange above on the 'cello da braccio is relocated...   

I am only selective when it comes to minor composers or works in which I only have a passing interest.  Works of Gershwin and Bartok come to mind ...

[FideLeo]

I am only selective when it comes to minor composers or works in which I only have a passing interest.  Works of Gershwin and Bartok come to mind ...

Fine with that.  Speaking for myself, I need to have a life away even from the major composers. 

[prémont]

I must say I find Richter utterly without charm. 

I agree completely. Certainly even more true of his sewing-machine recordings for Archiv of the Bach harpsichord concertos.

For something in the same general style which gives me a lot more pleasure I would cite the I Musici recordings on Philips.

I suppose you refer to the I Musici I from 1964. This is one of the few available sets from that period.
Their second set from 1984 with Pina Carmirelli, Guy Touvron and Hermann Baumann among others is already a bit more modern and less stiff in comparison.

[Coopmv]

I agree completely. Certainly even more true of his sewing-machine recordings for Archiv of the Bach harpsichord concertos.

I suppose you refer to the I Musici I from 1964. This is one of the few available sets from that period.
Their second set from 1984 with Pina Carmirelli, Guy Touvron and Hermann Baumann among others is already a bit more modern and less stiff in comparison.

I probably have no more than a dozen of CD's by I Musici, as most of their recordings I have are on LP.  Over the years, performances by the I Solisti Veneti/Scimone have become far more attractive to me.  I can never forget how dreadful I Musici performed the Brandenburg Concertos, which I have in a 2-LP Philips set, collecting dust on my LP shelf ...

[Scarpia]

I suppose you refer to the I Musici I from 1964. This is one of the few available sets from that period.
Their second set from 1984 with Pina Carmirelli, Guy Touvron and Hermann Baumann among others is already a bit more modern and less stiff in comparison.

Correct.  I have not heard the later set, but I don't find the early one at all stiff.  I like it because I feel it has some of the better attributes of the "romanticized" Bach while partaking of some of the clarity and energy that good HIP performances bring.  Then again, I also like Karajan's 60's Brandenburg set.   Nothing beats Fasolis, though. 

[FideLeo]

BTW, I will upload Kuijken's 3rd concerto after our exchange above on the 'cello da spalla is relocated.

The bass seems much lighter than customary - I'd prefer something in between the 'all da spalla' and 'all continuo cello' solutions, say 1:2 or 2:1.  Maybe that's what Bach had most of the time for his own performances. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/0zXJw-_apP4



Including da spalla's, 8' violone, the antiphonal staging for violins and violas, I see that someone has totally bought into Sigiwald Kuijken's argument...

[prémont]

Including da spalla's, 8' violone, the antiphonal staging for violins and violas, I see that someone has totally bought into Sigiwald Kuijken's argument...

Well, he just performs the concerto to my taste, in the way I (since long) thought it should be -  except that I did not earlier realise the perspective of the violoncello da spalla, but I certainly find Kuijken´s thoughts about this instrument ingenious. Having heard the instrument in this recording (and Suzuki´s), I admit that the continuo violone maybe should be a 16´ instrument, but I do not find this question to be that important when violoncello da spalla is used for all three cello parts.

[prémont]

The bass seems much lighter than customary - I'd prefer something in between the 'all da spalla' and 'all continuo cello' solutions, say 1:2 or 2:1.  Maybe that's what Bach had most of the time for his own performances. 

Probably not, because this would spoil the internal balance between the three cello´s and make one or two of the cello parts more prominent in the few bars where they do not play in unison.

[FideLeo]

Probably not, because this would spoil the internal balance between the three cello´s and make one or two of the cello parts more prominent in the few bars where they do not play in unison.

Makes sense - that was a lack of thought on my part to assume otherwise in this particular case.   On the other hand, as you said, playing in unison throughout would not have created a problem.  Some people have criticised this as being a 'safe' 'conservative' performance quite unlike Fasolis/Arts for example.  But I think Kuijken is just being himself, consistent as he is stylistically throughout the years I have listened to him and his Petite Bande.

[FideLeo]

For comparison or contrast to the above Kuijken recording

Richard Egarr directs the Academy of Ancient Music.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Hcbhl_rMJvM

Does Egarr's performance sound particularly 'bass-heavy' than Kuijken's to anyone?  To me the difference is distinct even though not outrageously so.  That alone is probably enough to keep the all-cello-da-gamba solution alive for a long time to come, even in the PI world.

[jlaurson]

For comparison or contrast to the above Kuijken recording

Richard Egarr directs the Academy of Ancient Music.

Does Egarr's performance sound particularly 'bass-heavy' than Kuijken's to anyone?

Perhaps in the lowest notes .... but to me it's actually the Kuijken recording where the 'center of gravity' sounds (upon first, and very cursory, impression) lower and heavier. Definite difference, though... and both are wonderful performances.

(See also: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=465)

[mc ukrneal]

For comparison or contrast to the above Kuijken recording

Richard Egarr directs the Academy of Ancient Music.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Hcbhl_rMJvM

Does Egarr's performance sound particularly 'bass-heavy' than Kuijken's to anyone?  To me the difference is distinct even though not outrageously so.  That alone is probably enough to keep the all-cello-da-gamba solution alive for a long time to come, even in the PI world.

Might also be that the Egarr is tuned to a lower level (technical terminology for this escapes me at the moment). This may be what you are reacting to as well.

[jlaurson]

Might also be that the Egarr is tuned to a lower level (technical terminology for this escapes me at the moment). This may be what you are reacting to as well.

Egarr chose the 'French' Baroque pitch for this recording at A = 392 Hz...

[prémont]

Might also be that the Egarr is tuned to a lower level (technical terminology for this escapes me at the moment). This may be what you are reacting to as well.

Yes, possibly, so these two recordings (Egarr, Kuijken II) cannot be compared in all details-

[FideLeo]

Might also be that the Egarr is tuned to a lower level (technical terminology for this escapes me at the moment). This may be what you are reacting to as well.

The Egarr would have an even lighter bass, if it had not adopted the lower pitch.  In that case the difference when compared to the Kuijken would probably be even more difficult to discern.

[prémont]

The Egarr would have an even lighter bass, if it had not adopted the lower pitch.  In that case the difference when compared to the Kuijken would probably be even more difficult to discern.

Difficult to tell. Now I do not remember whether Egarr uses an 8´ or a 16´ on the continuo group.

[FideLeo]

Difficult to tell. Now I do not remember whether Egarr uses an 8´ or a 16´ on the continuo group.

For the 3rd concerto, he uses a double bass (anon. Italian, 1750) and a theorbo in the continuo section.  16' then?

[kishnevi]

For the 3rd concerto, he uses a double bass (anon. Italian, 1750) and a theorbo in the continuo section.  16' then?

The liner notes state that in concertos 1,3, 4, and 5, the violone used 16'-pitch was used, but 8' pitch in 2 and 6.

[FideLeo]

The liner notes state that in concertos 1,3, 4, and 5, the violone used 16'-pitch was used, but 8' pitch in 2 and 6.

Thanks for filling out the details. 

[FideLeo]

Don't think the integral set of Bach solo concertos by Musica Alta Ripa gets much mention but they are actually a little neat ensemble, playing always one-to-a-part.

BWV 1043 

http://www.youtube.com/v/PL3A2ckq_4o

http://www.youtube.com/v/372orn46xb4

http://www.youtube.com/v/mMpQNHQx4ro