Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)

Started by Que, May 19, 2007, 12:07:32 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

FideLeo

http://www.youtube.com/v/rTiJEn76UTM

[asin]B003WL7DUY[/asin]

The last time this recording was discussed here, this other selling point of Kuijken's new Brandenburg set passed unmentioned: the tromba soloist, Jean-François Madeuf, used an instrument that, unlike most 'baroque trumpets' out there, has no finger holes on the tube.  Considering that Madeuf certainly did an admirable job staying in pitch a lot of times.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

mc ukrneal

Quote from: masolino on February 10, 2011, 12:13:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/rTiJEn76UTM

[asin]B003WL7DUY[/asin]

The last time this recording was discussed here, this other selling point of Kuijken's new Brandenburg set passed unmentioned: the tromba soloist, Jean-François Madeuf, used an instrument that, unlike most 'baroque trumpets' out there, has no finger holes on the tube.  Considering that Madeuf certainly did an admirable job staying in pitch a lot of times.
Strange how sometimes a conductor just does everything 'wrong' for one's ears. Kuijken must be one for me, or I am just getting 'lucky' with him (had issues with some of his Haydn too)? I didn't like that excerpt at all. In particular, in the first couple of minutes, serveral players end up being out of synch when they play (usually decorative elements), holding notes too long or differing too much from their colleagues by slowing down and such (0.45-.53 is a spot and then again around 1.10). The effect is that they are not together. Even if I ignore that, this seems a bit flat to me (not out of tune, but too literal (or robotic or clipped perhaps) I guess explains it). Then I saw it cost nearly $50 at Amazon!!!!!  :o :o Oh well, not for me.

I listened to the Musica Alta Ripa, but they seem bland to me. Perhaps I am not attuned to the one per part thing. Or perhapsthe Kuijken above was still too fresh in my memory!  >:(  I'll have to give them another chance another day.  ;D

Thanks for posting the excerpts. I really enjoy when people share like that!!
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

FideLeo

#362
Quote from: ukrneal on February 10, 2011, 12:37:35 AM
In particular, in the first couple of minutes, serveral players end up being out of synch when they play (usually decorative elements), holding notes too long or differing too much from their colleagues by slowing down and such (0.45-.53 is a spot and then again around 1.10). The effect is that they are not together.

Kuijken in this Bach is not really a 'conductor' in the usual sense - he plays the violin or the cello da spalla in all concertos.  As such I think he could not have the same kind of control or be fussy about synchronisation in what essentially is a pickup orchestra.  I am sure you won't find this issue with the legacy-status Goebel/MAK recording which sports a real solid ensemble.

QuoteI listened to the Musica Alta Ripa, but they seem bland to me. Perhaps I am not attuned to the one per part thing. Or perhapsthe Kuijken above was still too fresh in my memory!  >:(  I'll have to give them another chance another day.  ;D

Thanks for posting the excerpts. I really enjoy when people share like that!!

Kuijken is one per part too, but I think Alta Ripa has stricter rhythm.  I think the latter gave the music a very uniform treatment (subscribing to the concerto grosso rather the later solo concerto ideal), the main attraction being the texture of Bach's own composition which they did a very good job presenting as audible.  :) 

You are welcome about the sharing.  Visitors can listen to some of the music featured here even if they don't want to join in the endowment contest just yet that is very popular among record collectors.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

mc ukrneal

Quote from: masolino on February 10, 2011, 12:57:54 AM
Kuijken in this Bach is not really a 'conductor' in the usual sense - he plays the violin or the cello da spalla in all concertos.  As such I think he could not have the same kind of control or be fussy about synchronisation in what essentially is a pickup orchestra.  I am sure you won't find this issue with the legacy-status Goebel/MAK recording which sports a real solid ensemble.

Kuijken is one per part too, but I think Alta Ripa has stricter rhythm.  I think the latter gave the music a very uniform treatment (subscribing to the concerto grosso rather the later solo concerto ideal), the main attraction being the texture of Bach's own composition which they did a very good job presenting as audible.  :) 

You are welcome about the sharing.  Visitors can listen to some of the music featured here even if they don't want to join in the endowment contest just yet that is very popular among record collectors.
Interesting. Perhaps that is why some instruments have occassional lapses in rhythm (no conductor)? Otherwise, the overall rhythm and tempo aspect of it is quite strong I thought (referring to Kuijken), and even more impressive if they are essentially just listening to each other for the most part.

And it's quality, not quantity!  8)
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

PaulSC

Quote from: masolino on February 10, 2011, 12:57:54 AM
Kuijken in this Bach is not really a 'conductor' in the usual sense - he plays the violin or the cello da spalla in all concertos.  As such I think he could not have the same kind of control or be fussy about synchronisation in what essentially is a pickup orchestra.  I am sure you won't find this issue with the legacy-status Goebel/MAK recording which sports a real solid ensemble.
Of course the MAK players know better than to linger a moment too long on a decoration or they'll easily end up several beats behind!

Kidding (sort of); I generally like Goebel's rapid tempos in this music.

FideLeo

Quote from: PaulSC on February 10, 2011, 10:13:10 AM
Kidding (sort of); I generally like Goebel's rapid tempos in this music.

I still think they tried to shock everybody with their definitely rebel Brandenburg with extra rapidity.   Of course it worked like a charm.  It took some listeners more than a decade to get over that shock.  ;D
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Mandryka

Richter recorded BWV 1052 twice, once with Talich and once with Sanderling. Yudina recorded it once with Sanderling. Edwin Fischer recorded it once, directing the orchestra himself. Gould recorded it twice, once with a Leningrad orchestra and once as part of his Bach concerto series.

Yudina/Sanderling is maybe too slow for some tastes

http://www.youtube.com/v/m4FsIEtEHG8

I think it's very powerful though. I don't think it's any stranger than Edwin Fischer's rather dynamic approach:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ft4IYK9FuAo

Maybe Richter/Talich find the happy medium in terms of tempo and expressivity. I would say his performance with Talich is one of the real high points of his career. Unfortunately not on youtube.

Richter/Sanderlimg is slower and the piano is rather more prominent. Maybe not too prominent. The forward piano in Gould/Leningrad seems to me a killer in an otherwise interesting interpretation.

http://www.youtube.com/v/qK7__mtsRYQ

I'm starting to see how important balance is in these concertos. And how hard the balance issues are to resolve a piano.

If none of these suit, then Cafe Zimmermann seems to me to be undeniably excellent and lively -- but IMO incommesurable with the above fine piano performances. Not on youtube. Beautiful balances






Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

It's interesting (to me) to compare directly this old performance of the Afectuoso of Brandenburg 5 from Cortot

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=d75a1ff

with a more up to date one, like this one from the Linde Consort

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=fd4354b

One very striking difference is that Linde is relatively flat in terms of dynamics, Cortot much more varied.

So I'm guessing that more modern performers tend to avoid introducing dynamic variation, and that Cortot's dynamic style is part of what people refer to as "romantic" Bach playing. Is that right?

And what do you think you gain and lose, aesthetically?

Is Cortot's style here what people mean by terraced dynamics? I know that Schnabel was opposed to this, saying that it gets in the way of expressing  change, which he thought was the essential thing in music, apparently (it's mentioned in Konrad Wolff's book on Artur Schnabel.)

Schnabel recorded BWV 1061 with his son, and indeed there is very little dynamic variation.

http://www.youtube.com/v/w6d3tYQ17y0

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on March 10, 2011, 08:34:27 AM
Richter recorded BWV 1052 twice, once with Talich and once with Sanderling. Yudina recorded it once with Sanderling. Edwin Fischer recorded it once, directing the orchestra himself. Gould recorded it twice, once with a Leningrad orchestra and once as part of his Bach concerto series.

Yudina/Sanderling is maybe too slow for some tastes

I think it's very powerful though. I don't think it's any stranger than Edwin Fischer's rather dynamic approach:

The Yudina / Sanderling is not only too slow but also too heavily accented - almost every semiquaver is stressed. This is indeed very unstylish and this recording represents some of the worst examples of this way of playing, I have heard. Also Sanderlings recording of this concerto with Hans Pischner (the East-German harpsichordist) is marked by a certain obstinacy and too many accents pr. bar. Maybe they may be partially forgiven, because this was to some extent the way Bach was played in Germany and Eastern Europe in the 1950es and 1960es (e.g Münchingers early Bach recordings). Never-the-less Sanderlings recording with Sviatoslav Richter makes IMO the best out of this "trait" creating a energy-loaden tense performance of great interest. I do not know the Richter / Talich recording.

Despite Edwin Fischer´s many other musical virtues I never considered him a true Bachian. I think he tended to "prettify" everything he touched resulting in a certain superficiality.

Gould´s recording bores me. He plays almost with cat´s paw´s and never really gets into the music. And his occational stressing of individual strands in the musical texture is IMO ridiculous.
[/quote]
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on March 25, 2011, 05:25:10 AM
It's interesting (to me) to compare directly this old performance of the Afectuoso of Brandenburg 5 from Cortot with a more up to date one, like this one from the Linde Consort

Unfortunataly I can not hear your clips on my PC, but fortunately I own both recordings. I shall need to relisten to the Cortot recording before answering, but your conclusions sound reliable. Exactly overdone dynamic variation (when applied to Bach) is part of what is considered "romantic" Bach playing. What we gain aestetically by omitting romantic playing  is more stylish playing - yes, I know that some do not consider this a ligitimate goal by itself - but in Bach´s music the dynamic variations are more or less built into the musical structure and texture, so only discrete and well choosen variations in dynamics are needed on the part of the performer.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on March 25, 2011, 05:25:10 AM

One very striking difference is that Linde is relatively flat in terms of dynamics, Cortot much more varied.

Concerning the different dynamic variation in these two recordings it is important to remember, that the dynamic range of baroque instuments is more limited than the dynamic range of their romantic counterparts. Also the Baroque music generally operates with only two different dynamic levels, which are piano and forte. All other variations are either subtle variations of these two levels used for expressive purposes, or variations caused by thinning out or condensing the scoring and the musical texture. In the Affetuoso of the 5th Brandenburg concerto it is obvious, that the introductory and later recurring ritornel is scored for all three soloists in "dense"  texture (the harpsichord with figured bass), while the texture is thinned out considerably in the intervening episodes, the harpsichord playing only two parts, discant and bass, and the two other soloists alternates much of the time. Some harpsichordist´s (and pianist´s) habit of adding figured bass to these two parts even in the episodes must be considered unstylish, since this manner blurs the innate dynamic contrast between the ritornel and the episodes, making the overall structure of the movement indistinct.   
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Antoine Marchand

#371
Quote from: Mandryka on March 10, 2011, 08:34:27 AM
I'm starting to see how important balance is in these concertos. And how hard the balance issues are to resolve a piano.

If none of these suit, then Cafe Zimmermann seems to me to be undeniably excellent and lively -- but IMO incommesurable with the above fine piano performances. Not on youtube. Beautiful balances

I began to listen to this music played on harpsichord and then some violin reconstructions and, as you will suppose, some of these versions almost result unlisteneable for me... no offense intended, just reasons of balance and style. Even with Gould, one of the few pianists that I enjoy in some Bach's solo keyboard music.

Anyway, yesterday I was listening to an organ reconstruction of this concerto and I thought maybe you could be interested:

http://www.youtube.com/v/i1N1ZuGWmz4

Organ Concerto in d-minor (reconstruction)

1. Allegro

Christine Schornsheim, organ and the New Leipzig Collegium Musicum conducted by Max Pommer 

premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 25, 2011, 02:46:38 PM

Organ Concerto in d-minor (reconstruction)

Christine Schornsheim, organ and the New Leipzig Collegium Musicum conducted by Max Pommer

Link to recording (contains a number of other restored Bach-concrtos on 3 CDs):

http://www.amazon.de/Solo-Concertos-Solokonzerte-Schornsheim/dp/B0020MSTC2/ref=sr_1_17?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1301094060&sr=1-17
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: FideLeo on January 29, 2011, 07:48:13 AM


Do you know if that box set is available somewhere, masolino? I have just seen the individual discs. 

Antoine Marchand


Mandryka

Quote from: aulos on March 25, 2011, 06:53:18 AM
The Yudina / Sanderling is not only too slow but also too heavily accented - almost every semiquaver is stressed. This is indeed very unstylish


Can I just get clear about something before responding to you and Antoine more fully? This word stylish in English is normally a statement of value (something is said to be stylish if the speaker thinks the style is cool.) Is this what you mean -- or are you just intending to make a statement of fact (something is stylish if it corresponds to certain rules, practices)?

Quote from: aulos on March 25, 2011, 06:53:18 AM
I do not know the Richter / Talich recording.

Please do feel free to take Richter/Talich in BWV 1052. It's  different from the one with Sanderling even though it was made roughly at the same time. (Talich = 1954; Sanderling = 1955)

http://www.mediafire.com/?x6v1b1watna7z
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on March 25, 2011, 10:21:00 PM
Can I just get clear about something before responding to you and Antoine more fully? This word stylish in English is normally a statement of value (something is said to be stylish if the speaker thinks the style is cool.) Is this what you mean -- or are you just intending to make a statement of fact (something is stylish if it corresponds to certain rules, practices)?

Writing "unstylish" I may have translated the word too directly from Danish. What I mean is something like "in bad style" or "misguided".


Quote from: Mandryka on March 25, 2011, 10:21:00 PM
Please do feel free to take Richter/Talich in BWV 1052. It's  different from the one with Sanderling even though it was made roughly at the same time. (Talich = 1954; Sanderling = 1955)

http://www.mediafire.com/?x6v1b1watna7z

Many thanks for this, which I just now have downloaded.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 25, 2011, 04:21:40 PM
That set also includes a reconstruction for violin of the d-minor concerto.

Yes, played by the great Karl Suske.

Even if the organ version is authentic and the violin version strictly spoken is  not, the violin version - in several arbitrary arrangements (each musician makes his/her own)  is the one which is favoured by musicians and listeners -judged by the many realeased violin versions as opposed to the very few organ versions. OK,  of course you get some of the organ version in every Bach Sacred Cantata set.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

premont

γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: aulos on March 26, 2011, 04:19:05 AM
Yes, played by the great Karl Suske.

Even if the organ version is authentic and the violin version strictly spoken is  not, the violin version - in several arbitrary arrangements (each musician makes his/her own)  is the one which is favoured by musicians and listeners -judged by the many realeased violin versions as opposed to the very few organ versions. OK,  of course you get some of the organ version in every Bach Sacred Cantata set.

Yes, the violin version is finally just an assumption based on the supposed existence of an original violin concerto now lost. But listening to that concerto for harpsichord is a very strong assumption because it sounds extraordinarily violinistic. BTW, do you think that all the concertos for harpsichord(s) are "transcriptions" or some of them were written originally for harpsichord? (I mean when the source has not survived).

Karl Suske... that name appears one time and again. Not just here, but in the sonatas & partitas, the violin concertos, Beethoven's string quartets, some Schubert's chamber music. Considering his performance with Pommer, I need to look more closely his discs.