Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)

[Antoine Marchand]

Here at least:

http://www.amazon.de/Solokonzerte-Vol-Musica-Alta-Ripa/dp/B00006J9R9/ref=sr_1_29?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1301142228&sr=1-29

Thanks, Premont. Yesterday I found that link, but unfortunaly AMP.de don't work for Chile or the USA. Anyway, I am not sure about if I will purchase some of those discs by Musica Alta Ripa, I mean they are a very competent ensemble, but I missed some "sacred fire" in their performances, which is another way to say that I found them a little bit monotonous; but I have just listened to some samples and the links provided by Masolino. 

[prémont]

Yes, the violin version is finally just an assumption based on the supposed existence of an original violin concerto now lost. But listening to that concerto for harpsichord is a very strong assumption because it sounds extraordinarily violinistic. BTW, do you think that all the concertos for harpsichord(s) are "transcriptions" or some of them were written originally for harpsichord? (I mean when the source has not survived).

Probably, as usually assumed, the C-major concerto for two harpsichords BWV 1061 is conceived originally for keyboard instruments. The "reconstruction" of this concertos omitting the ripieno works IMO very well. I do not doubt, that the other "harpsichord" concertos were transcribed from versions for other instruments, but every reconstruction made to day implies an arbritrary element, - most reconstructors of the presumed violin concerto BWV 1052 get troubles with the cadenza in the end of the third movement, not only in reconstructing but also in playing - the reconstructor is most often the executing violinist him/herself.

Karl Suske... that name appears one time and again. Not just here, but in the sonatas & partitas, the violin concertos, Beethoven's string quartets, some Schubert's chamber music. Considering his performance with Pommer, I need to look more closely his discs.

His recording of Bach´s violin concertos is not recommendable, mainly because of Masur´s heavy and insensitive orchestral contribution (Leipzig Gewandhaus Orch.), and I do not know the Schubert recordings.

[prémont]

Thanks, Premont. Yesterday I found that link, but unfortunaly AMP.de don't work for Chile or the USA. Anyway, I am not sure about if I will purchase some of those discs by Musica Alta Ripa, I mean they are a very competent ensemble, but I missed some "sacred fire" in their performances, which is another way to say that I found them a little bit monotonous; but I have just listened to some samples and the links provided by Masolino.

I own all five CDs, but have not listened to them since very long. As far as I recall they are a mixed bag, several of the interpretations being unmemorable.

[Antoine Marchand]

I own all five CDs, but have not listened to them since very long. As far as I recall they are a mixed bag, several of the interpretations being unmemorable.

... that's my general impression, too. Although in the past I was very interested in their flute sonatas with Karl Kaiser.

[Antoine Marchand]

Probably, as usually assumed, the C-major concerto for two harpsichords BWV 1061 is conceived originally for keyboard instruments. The "reconstruction" of this concertos omitting the ripieno works IMO very well. I do not doubt, that the other "harpsichord" concertos were transcribed from versions for other instruments, but every reconstruction made to day implies an arbritrary element, - most reconstructors of the presumed violin concerto BWV 1052 get troubles with the cadenza in the end of the third movement, not only in reconstructing but also in playing - the reconstructor is most often the executing violinist him/herself.

Is there any recording of this concerto just for two harpsichords, without strings (ripieno)?

His recording of Bach´s violin concertos is not recommendable, mainly because of Masur´s heavy and insensitive orchestral contribution (Leipzig Gewandhaus Orch.)

I have taken note.

[Antoine Marchand]

Is there any recording of this concerto just for two harpsichords, without strings (ripieno)?

I had forgotten this version by Robert Levin & Jeffrey Kahane:



BWV 1061a

[prémont]

Is there any recording of this concerto just for two harpsichords, without strings (ripieno)?

From the top of my head I recall five

1)  Levin / Kahane              Hanssler Bach edition (you own this already)

2)  Hollmann / Lohr            MDG  (Alta Ripa complete concertos vol. 1)
 
3)  Belder / Stinders           Et Cetera (IRRC) (Dutch, from early 1990es)

4)  Hogwood / Rousset      L´Oiseau Lyre

5)  Bryndorf / Rasmussen   Danish Classico

If you want, I can supply further details, but this demands the  consulting of my shelfs.

[Antoine Marchand]

From the top of my head I recall five

1)  Levin / Kahane              Hanssler Bach edition (you own this already)

2)  Hollmann / Lohr            MDG  (Alta Ripa complete concertos vol. 1)
 
3)  Belder / Stinders           Et Cetera (IRRC) (Dutch, from early 1990es)

4)  Hogwood / Rousset      L´Oiseau Lyre

5)  Bryndorf / Rasmussen   Danish Classico

If you want, I can supply further details, but this demands the  consulting of my shelfs.

Yes, I just own the Levin/Kahane, but with that info I will do some research. Thanks! 

BTW, I found this link with the American harpsichordists Peter Sykes and Mahan Esfahani performing BWV 1061a:

http://www.wgbh.org/programs/-803/episodes/-15435

[Mandryka]

Despite Edwin Fischer´s many other musical virtues I never considered him a true Bachian. I think he tended to "prettify" everything he touched resulting in a certain superficiality.

Take one of my favourite Edwin  Fischer Bach recordings -- BWV 1053.

Certainly the Siciliano is beautiful, but ideas like "prettify" make it sound weak. But I think that at times the performance is quite steely and dynamic To my ears at least, nothing could be further from the truth than your suggestion of "a certain superficiality" . For depth of feeling, I have never heard deeper. One I have heard that comes close is Zuzana Ruzickova's  wonderful harpsichord recording with Neumann.


One general difficulty I have in responding to you is that you're so confident in your judgements about who is and who is not "a true Bachian". I guess these perceptions, or intuitions, ground your judgements about what is and what is not "stylish".

You know, he had two wives and 20 kids -- a bit of romance may be in order

[prémont]

One general difficulty I have in responding to you is that you're so confident in your judgements about what is and what is not "a true Bachian". I guess these perceptions, or intuitions, ground your judgements about what is and what is not "stylish".

In the light of the historical information there is something which is "bad style" per definition, but other things are of course a matter of taste.  My longtime intensive interest in Bach´s music has of course resulted in some ideas about what is good style and what is bad style, but this isn´t but my opinion, which some share and others do not. I do not pretend that my taste is "better" than others. My remark about E Fischer said : "I never considered" and this already says that I just express my own taste.

I have listened to the Richter / Talich BWV 1052 you uploaded for me. IMO played with delicate restraint but still with rhytmic alertness and great tension beneath the surface. And I very much like the way Richter plays the complete middle  (solo-) section of the slow movement piano with only subtle dynamic variations. All in all a refreshing anti-romantic interpretation. Thanks once more for making it accessible to me. 

[PaulSC]

In the light of the historical information there is something which is "bad style" per definition

Without wanting to be argumentative, I'd say that's not quite right: the historical record is indeed clear enough to enable us to judge some performance styles as inauthentic (or less authentic), but whether this makes those styles "bad" is still a matter of individual taste.

[Mandryka]

I have listened to the Richter / Talich BWV 1052 you oploaded for me. IMO played with delicate restraint but still with rhytmic alertness and great tension beneath the surface. And I very much like the way Richter plays the complete middle  (solo-) section of the slow movement piano with only subtle dynamic variations. All in all a refreshing anti-romantic interpretation. Thanks once more for making it accessible to me.

Glad you like it. It is one of my favourite Richter recordings.

[prémont]

Without wanting to be argumentative, I'd say that's not quite right: the historical record is indeed clear enough to enable us to judge some performance styles as inauthentic (or less authentic), but whether this makes those styles "bad" is still a matter of individual taste.

Well, call it authentic /  inauthentic, if you want. These words cover rather well what I meant.
Maybe though the problem is, that I do not have the full understanding of the word "style".

[prémont]

Glad you like it. It is one of my favourite Richter recordings.

And now also one of mine 

[milk]

Is there any recording of this concerto just for two harpsichords, without strings (ripieno)?


There is the Plectra recording of Moroney and Flint.

[milk]

I wonder if anyone has an opinion of this recording:
Bach: Concertos pour clavecin
Béatrice Martin

[Coopmv]

Sorry, I need help with the image/link posting. I apologize.

I wonder if we need to use Firefox instead of IE to get the image/link posting done.  I have not had any success since the site was last upated and I use IE.

[milk]

I wonder if we need to use Firefox instead of IE to get the image/link posting done.  I have not had any success since the site was last upated and I use IE.

I did get a message explaining this more from the moderator. Hopefully I can pull it off next time!
I'm thinking of getting the Martin recording.

[milk]

I wonder if anyone has an opinion of this recording:
Bach: Concertos pour clavecin
Béatrice Martin

I did get this recording by the way. I like the sound quality but I don't know what I think of the interpretations yet. Itunes has every track mis-labelled! This recording does remind me how much I love the plectra recording![asin] B00285QBXK[/asin]

[Que]

Speaking of the Plectra recording...

.[asin]B00285QBXK[/asin]

This is all I could ever want for - a dream come true - it is as if the Leonhardt Consort's old (1968! ) Teldec set has been re-recorded, but then in better sound (though nor recorded in the studio), with better sounding instruments and taking the developments in HIP-pratices of the 4 decades that lie in between on board: more elaborate variation in phrasing, some embellishments here and there. What the sets share is the ultra-direct, penetrating approach in a very small setting: only 5 strings and two recorders are used to join in the harpsichords. And a catching joie de vivre, when the listener becomes used to the in your-face-quality of the performance and recording. 1st time listeners that are used to more "plush" Bach, might be taken aback by the seemingly barren and dead-earnest, almost mechanical sounding musical image.
Harpsichords used: Nicolas Dumont, Paris, 1707; Johannes Ruckers, Antwerp, 1635; an anonymous Spanish instrument, formerly owned by Rafael Puyana, ca. 1700/25; an Italian harpsichord of the late 16th/early 17 century, ascribed to Domenico of Pessaro and also owned by Rafael Puyana.

A more than worthy successor the the Leonhardt set - pretty definitive, for me at least!

A luke-warm ("interesting release, worth hearing") Fanfare review HERE.

It seems that various reviewers respond quite differently: "a very rewarding set and the relaxed, informal style of the music-making seems very close to what Bach probably heard when he and his sons originally played these concertos." (review on allmusic)

Q