Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)

[prémont]

Yeah, it's hard for me to decide if I really need another. I'm pretty happy with Fasolis, Zimmermann, Alessandrini, etc. But if folks feel it brings something much different...There's another recent one on these pages, I forget which, that I finally decided I didn't need. But I'm always looking for new ways to listen to this grand old music. And Freiburger rarely disappoints.

Well, I have listened to the Freiburger´s second Brandenburg set twice.

Contrary to their first recording (DVD 2000), the tempi are (or feel) somewhat faster and often a little hectic, as if the leader (Gottfried von der Goltz) has not got similar control of the forces as in the first set, or the soloists are left more free to play how they want themselves. And also they seem to me to have fallen into the "Italian expression" trap á la Fasiolis, Musica Florea et.c. There are some fine soloist episodes in between, but the corni in Cto.I are rather unpolished and obtrusive, and G v d Goltz is not equally elegant on the solo violin as he was before. So I think the well measured and eloquent first set is to be preferred.

[Wakefield]

Well, I have listened to the Freiburger´s second Brandenburg set twice.

Contrary to their first recording (DVD 2000), the tempi are (or feel) somewhat faster and often a little hectic, as if the leader (Gottfried von der Goltz) has not got similar control of the forces as in the first set, or the soloists are left more free to play how they want themselves. And also they seem to me to have fallen into the "Italian expression" trap á la Fasiolis, Musica Florea et.c. There are some fine soloist episodes in between, but the corni in Cto.I are rather unpolished and obtrusive, and G v d Goltz is not equally elegant on the solo violin as he was before. So I think the well measured and eloquent first set is to be preferred.

Thanks for this, Poul!

I just imagined this or your opinion of their recording of the violin concertos wasn't very high?

[prémont]

Thanks for this, Poul!

I just imagined this or your opinion of their recording of the violin converts wasn't very high?

I was not thet impressed by their recent CD with the violin concertos, but on the other hand, I have only listened to it once. This is going to change to night.

[eoghan]

First time poster on the forum. Occasional lurker - mainly nicking information and opinions of which there have been some outstanding suggestions (I'm currently busy making notes from the "Romantic HIP" thread). But I thought it was time to give something as well as take...so...

The Brandenburgs are my all time favourite music (and always have been) so that makes an obvious place to start. When I was a kid I was brought up on Menuhin (on LP) and then Pinnock (on cassette). The Pinnock cassettes were very heavily listened to and remain the benchmark for me against which everything else is judged. They are a fine set. But I've started listening to others in more recent years.

Richard Egarr's set is a very solid one. It really dances. Reinhard Goebel is generally on the manic side for my preference, but he does, for me, do the best version of No 2 which on balance I find to be the weakest of all the concertos. Goebel and friends really bring it to life. Jordi Savall has mixed results. Sometimes the very distinctive "Savall sound" just doesn't sound right for this music and I feel myself craving something brighter. But - and it's a BIG but - Savall, perhaps unsurprisingly as a viol specialist - comes into his own with an extraordinary rendition of the 6th. The first movement is taken very, very slowly by modern standards with lots of rubato - and it breathes more than any other. Far more than any interpreter Savall really makes the most of those wonderful oblique, sepia-dark, umami tones that result from the orchestration. Worth listening to for the 6th alone.

Maasaki Suzuki is way out in front in my opinion when it comes to the cantatas and B minor mass so I was astonished at how flat and emotionless his Brandenburgs are. They're played at a brisk medium-fast pace throughout, and the playing is perfectly competent, but I could barely find a memorable moment - I found the set cold and expressionless.

But there's only one winner for me. I hadn't heard Gardiner's set until I saw them live at the Cadogan Hall in London about 3 years ago and it was astonishing. Gardiner takes No 1 - previously one of my least favourites - and turns it into something truly exciting. The contrast between a soft, legato opening section of the Polacca and the ultra-staccato development really grabs you. The final movement of the 6th is pure dance music. The Gardiner recording is miles and miles ahead of anything else I've heard.

One thing really irritates me about the Brandenburgs: the music is so close to perfect, with so many brilliant movements, that it really bugs me that Bach was lazy enough to include the odd "ordinary" movement in there I'm pointing the finger at the slow movement of the 5th in particular which is dull as dishwater, with half a mention to the trios in the 1st and the slow movement of the 6th. But everything else - everything! - is as good as music gets in my opinion.

As a postscript: I'm amazed that in 27 pages there has been no mention of BWV 1050a. It's an alternative early version of the 5th which contains a chromatic harpsichord cadenza - considerably shorter than the Brandenburg version - which will pick you up, throw you into the drum of a washing machine, spin you round and bash you around for a couple of minutes and spit you out. It's a brief but exhilarating ride, particularly if you know the more famous cadenza inside out.

[bhodges]

Greetings, eoghan, and welcome. A great first post! Feel free to post a little more about yourself in the "Introductions" section of the board, if you like. In any case, have a good time here.

--Bruce

[Karl Henning]

First time poster on the forum. Occasional lurker - mainly nicking information and opinions of which there have been some outstanding suggestions (I'm currently busy making notes from the "Romantic HIP" thread). But I thought it was time to give something as well as take...so...

The Brandenburgs are my all time favourite music (and always have been) so that makes an obvious place to start. When I was a kid I was brought up on Menuhin (on LP) and then Pinnock (on cassette). The Pinnock cassettes were very heavily listened to and remain the benchmark for me against which everything else is judged. They are a fine set. But I've started listening to others in more recent years.

Richard Egarr's set is a very solid one. It really dances. Reinhard Goebel is generally on the manic side for my preference, but he does, for me, do the best version of No 2 which on balance I find to be the weakest of all the concertos. Goebel and friends really bring it to life. Jordi Savall has mixed results. Sometimes the very distinctive "Savall sound" just doesn't sound right for this music and I feel myself craving something brighter. But - and it's a BIG but - Savall, perhaps unsurprisingly as a viol specialist - comes into his own with an extraordinary rendition of the 6th. The first movement is taken very, very slowly by modern standards with lots of rubato - and it breathes more than any other. Far more than any interpreter Savall really makes the most of those wonderful oblique, sepia-dark, umami tones that result from the orchestration. Worth listening to for the 6th alone.

Maasaki Suzuki is way out in front in my opinion when it comes to the cantatas and B minor mass so I was astonished at how flat and emotionless his Brandenburgs are. They're played at a brisk medium-fast pace throughout, and the playing is perfectly competent, but I could barely find a memorable moment - I found the set cold and expressionless.

But there's only one winner for me. I hadn't heard Gardiner's set until I saw them live at the Cadogan Hall in London about 3 years ago and it was astonishing. Gardiner takes No 1 - previously one of my least favourites - and turns it into something truly exciting. The contrast between a soft, legato opening section of the Polacca and the ultra-staccato development really grabs you. The final movement of the 6th is pure dance music. The Gardiner recording is miles and miles ahead of anything else I've heard.

One thing really irritates me about the Brandenburgs: the music is so close to perfect, with so many brilliant movements, that it really bugs me that Bach was lazy enough to include the odd "ordinary" movement in there I'm pointing the finger at the slow movement of the 5th in particular which is dull as dishwater, with half a mention to the trios in the 1st and the slow movement of the 6th. But everything else - everything! - is as good as music gets in my opinion.

As a postscript: I'm amazed that in 27 pages there has been no mention of BWV 1050a. It's an alternative early version of the 5th which contains a chromatic harpsichord cadenza - considerably shorter than the Brandenburg version - which will pick you up, throw you into the drum of a washing machine, spin you round and bash you around for a couple of minutes and spit you out. It's a brief but exhilarating ride, particularly if you know the more famous cadenza inside out.

Cheers, eoghan!  Thanks for coming aboard at full steam.

What is it about that first Brandenburg, that so many accounts of it are . . . bloodless?

And you are taking me to task . . . I am sure I have listened to the BWV 1050a, but it cannot have been nearly so attentive as it is right to demand.  I wasn't thrown into the drum of a washing machine, spin and bashed around, but then, someone may have added some fabric softener . . . .

Love Egarr's Louis Couperin, BTW!

[eoghan]

Thanks - perhaps I've overegged the cadenza of BWV 1050a but harmonically it's certainly a bit of an eye-opener.

I first heard a bit of Egarr's Louis Couperin the other day as it happens - I don't know much Louis Couperin if truth be told and I loved it!

Thanks Bruce!

[HIPster]

Welcome to the forum, eoghan!

Always great to meet someone who loves Bach's Brandenburg Concertos.   

I appreciate your comments and would ask if you have heard Cafe Zimmerman's set?  A winner in all regards for me.
[asin]B005IQXUQW[/asin]

Cheers!

[Mandryka]

Hi eoghan, and thanks for a great post. I like that cadenza from 1050a too. It's effect is so different from the one in 1050.

I always think that in 1050/i the harpsichord is like this major troubkemaker who really never gets contoled properly by the orchestra. Even at the end, after the orchestra have played the movement to a close, I still feel like the harpsichord is like a wild orangutan lurking in the background who may show up and reak havock at any moment. What he does in the cadenza is so shocking it still resounds threateningly in the mind. In 1050a/i, the harpsichord is tamer, his music's fun but it's friendly and at the end I feel that everything's been brought into beautiful balance by the orchestra's final bars.

Leonhardt's fabulous in 1050 parly because you can sense he's a crazy orangutan from the very first moment he plays, right at the start of the movement.

[aukhawk]

I appreciate your comments and would ask if you have heard Cafe Zimmerman's set?  A winner in all regards for me.
[asin]B005IQXUQW[/asin]

++several for Cafe Zimmerman - first choice for me also.

[Karl Henning]

Thanks - perhaps I've overegged the cadenza of BWV 1050a but harmonically it's certainly a bit of an eye-opener.

I need yet to fetch out the BWV 1050a again.

Meanwhile, I do much enjoy (and I was probably pointed here by one of our GMG neighbors) this account of the 'burgs:

[asin]B008P9ILWW[/asin]

[Marc]

[....]
What is it about that first Brandenburg, that so many accounts of it are . . . bloodless?
[....]

Leonhardt et al 1977 (re-issued on Brilliant Classics) is very good IMO.
Maybe not as fast as many HIP-ers want it to, but it's noble and attentive playing, and a rhytmically vivid performance.

[....]
I'm amazed that in 27 pages there has been no mention of BWV 1050a. It's an alternative early version of the 5th which contains a chromatic harpsichord cadenza - considerably shorter than the Brandenburg version - which will pick you up, throw you into the drum of a washing machine, spin you round and bash you around for a couple of minutes and spit you out. It's a brief but exhilarating ride, particularly if you know the more famous cadenza inside out.

Welcome to the board!
You're right about the silence i.c. BWV 1050a, but, even though I don't know this thread too well, there hasn't been much discussion about either 'alternative' version of the Brandenburgers here, recorded by a.o. Marriner, Pommer and Hogwood.

[prémont]

Leonhardt et al 1977 (re-issued on Brilliant Classics) is very good IMO.
Maybe not as fast as many HIP-ers want it to, but it's noble and attentive playing, and a rhytmically vivid performance.

I suppose you think of this rather inexpensive Sony rerelease:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/3158804

[Marc]

I suppose you think of this rather inexpensive Sony rerelease:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/3158804

That must be the same.
I have a Brilliant twofer, catalogue nr. 92236. Bought it about a dozen years ago, or maybe even in the Bach year 2000, in a Dutch Kruidvat pharmacy shop. In those days, Brilliant discs costed around 2 euro a piece.
Recorded 1976/1977 at the famous Doopsgezinde Kerk, Haarlem, produced by the also famous Wolf Erichson, all tracks licensed by Sony Music Benelux BV.
At that particular time, the 'original' re-issue was OOP. So this Brilliant re-issue was hailed enormously by the Dutch music press .... and by some music lovers of course.

[prémont]

That must be the same.
I have a Brilliant twofer, catalogue nr. 92236. Bought it about a dozen years ago, or maybe even in the Bach year 2000, in a Dutch Kruidvat pharmacy shop. In those days, Brilliant discs costed around 2 euro a piece.
Recorded 1976/1977 at the famous Doopsgezinde Kerk, Haarlem, produced by the also famous Wolf Erichson, all tracks licensed by Sony Music Benelux BV.
At that particular time, the 'original' re-issue was OOP. So this Brilliant re-issue was hailed enormously by the Dutch music press .... and by some music lovers of course.

I own several releases of this recording, among others I acquired the the original Seon LP set already in 1978. It was very revelatory listening at that time.

But I have never seen this Brilliant release, which I assume was meant for the Dutch market.

[mc ukrneal]

I need yet to fetch out the BWV 1050a again.

Meanwhile, I do much enjoy (and I was probably pointed here by one of our GMG neighbors) this account of the 'burgs:

[asin]B008P9ILWW[/asin]

Hey, those are free on Prime! Awesome!

[Karl Henning]

Cool!

[bwv 1080]

always liked this orchestral arrangement played by the NES Chamber Orchestra

[Pat B]

I just listened to the first 2 Orchestral Suites (Harnoncourt 1966). It's probably old news to most of you, but it was my first listen to this recording. I am a fan of many more recent PI performances, but I was expecting this early one to be abrasive and maybe sloppy, two of the long-standing talking points against PI. They had to come from somewhere, right? Well, it wasn't from here. This is well-played and, even if it sounded unusual in the '60s, it is rather centrist by today's standards.

[Mandryka]

I just listened to the first 2 Orchestral Suites (Harnoncourt 1966). It's probably old news to most of you, but it was my first listen to this recording. I am a fan of many more recent PI performances, but I was expecting this early one to be abrasive and maybe sloppy, two of the long-standing talking points against PI. They had to come from somewhere, right? Well, it wasn't from here. This is well-played and, even if it sounded unusual in the '60s, it is rather centrist by today's standards.

Yes and it may have been middle of the road HIP even then, I don't know. What you find is that Harnoncourt can talk the talk but often he doesn't  walk the walk. I don't know why. The talk and walk, by the way, are about making the music maximally jolting, expressive and discordant, by short cell articulation, sensitivity to all the possibilities for affekt, and the voices interacting in often complex ways.

In my opinion, Harnoncourt's most interesting Brandenburgs are a bit later, on the DVD he made for DG with CMV. I think it's often true that his later recordings are more interesting in terms of boldness of ideas - here in the concertos, also in the B minor mass and in Mozart symphonies.