Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)

[DavidW]

Has anyone heard their Jungle Book recording with Zinman yet? Scarpia, David?

Sorry it's still on the pile, I've been making my way through my BRO order.  I'll listen tonight though.

[Mirror Image]

I'll listen tonight though.

Sounds good. Please let me know what you think whenever you've digested some of the music.

[mjwal]

I've been listening to the wonderful Holliger CD with Les Bandar-log and the Offrande musical sur le nom de BACH - very impressed and now am tempted to get Holliger's Heures Persanes after all despite my love for the Segerstam. I cannot imagine a better performance of the Offrande and the Bandar-log is close to perfection. After listening to the latter yesterday I decided today to pull out my old LP with Dorati conducting the BBCSO. Here is richness - richness of timbres, of harmonic movement, of orchestral interplay - and a modernist violence combined with voluptuously mysterious forest murmurs & rumblings. The old LP can't achieve the same level of transparency as the Holliger but is closer to what I would call la nature brute. Both recordings make the most of the percussive effects, with one passage sounding quite like Bartók's celesta & ghostly strings in the MFSPC. Listening to the Zinman after these two I was slightly disappointed - the sound stage is lacking in depth, the monkeys much less chaotic & more neo-classical, the whole percussive aspect flatter in perspective & less threatening. Altogether there is less sense of mystery and inevitability in the music's progress. I will go on listening to Zinman in the other pieces of the Jungle Book, but for the Bandar-log it's definitely the Holliger - with the hope of finding the Dorati recording cleanly remastered or transferred, either on CD or (more likely) on the net some day soon. The BBC orchestra is clearly the richest sounding of the three and Dorati offers a true alternative to Hollliger's and the RSO Stuttgart's superlative digital recording.

[Mirror Image]

I've been listening to the wonderful Holliger CD with Les Bandar-log and the Offrande musical sur le nom de BACH - very impressed and now am tempted to get Holliger's Heures Persanes after all despite my love for the Segerstam. I cannot imagine a better performance of the Offrande and the Bandar-log is close to perfection. After listening to the latter yesterday I decided today to pull out my old LP with Dorati conducting the BBCSO. Here is richness - richness of timbres, of harmonic movement, of orchestral interplay - and a modernist violence combined with voluptuously mysterious forest murmurs & rumblings. The old LP can't achieve the same level of transparency as the Holliger but is closer to what I would call la nature brute. Both recordings make the most of the percussive effects, with one passage sounding quite like Bartók's celesta & ghostly strings in the MFSPC. Listening to the Zinman after these two I was slightly disappointed - the sound stage is lacking in depth, the monkeys much less chaotic & more neo-classical, the whole percussive aspect flatter in perspective & less threatening. Altogether there is less sense of mystery and inevitability in the music's progress. I will go on listening to Zinman in the other pieces of the Jungle Book, but for the Bandar-log it's definitely the Holliger - with the hope of finding the Dorati recording cleanly remastered or transferred, either on CD or (more likely) on the net some day soon. The BBC orchestra is clearly the richest sounding of the three and Dorati offers a true alternative to Hollliger's and the RSO Stuttgart's superlative digital recording.

I disagree with your opinion about Zinman. I think the performances are fine. Much more superlative than Segerstam's recordings. In The Persian Hours I like both Holliger and Segerstam, but I think Segerstam has a bit more raw edge that I like, but, still, this is too close to call. This said, my favorite recordings of the Holliger series are:

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These recordings only rectified Koechlin's greatness for me. They added another dimension to my appreciation of this composer. I really hope that Holliger continues his Koechlin series as there's still so much to record.

[pjme]

Has anyone heard this version of Junglebook?

Stuart Bedford (Conductor), Orchestre National de Montpellier Languedoc -Roussilon.
Iris Vermillion, Vincent Le Texier, Jacques Trussel

Peter

[Mirror Image]

Has anyone heard this version of Junglebook?

Stuart Bedford (Conductor), Orchestre National de Montpellier Languedoc -Roussilon.
Iris Vermillion, Vincent Le Texier, Jacques Trussel

Peter

No, I haven't and the reason I've avoided it is because it's a live recording, which doesn't bother me, but there is audience applause after each piece. This to me is just annoying.

[Mirror Image]

What I admire about Koechlin is he didn't need the approval of his peers or really an audience to compose music. He was very much his own man. He composed music because it was what he born to do. He did it out of necessity, not because it was something "hip" to do.

[snyprrr]

Listened again to the Piano Quintet. I think it combines an elusive, mysterious harmonic pallette a la faure, with a more generally Sinister sound, a la EA Poe/Baudelaire. Caplet/Pierne meet a doped up Szymanowski? Maybe not thaaat hallucinatory, but still a very strong profile,... almost reminds me of Roy Harris, in that modal way.

I guess I'm starting to warm up to the 3 String Quartets and this PQ, all written around the same early phase. Perhaps it's that I find their length arrogant, or their seeming perfection of inspiration,... they certainly seem to inhabit the world of the 'Lilies' and such paintings of gardens and such,... very perfumed, but not sexual (a la Szymanowski),... very lazy sounding a la Villa-Lobos of the 3rd String Quartet. I'd even put a tiny dab of Ives in there (or Cowell perhaps?).

[Mirror Image]

Listened again to the Piano Quintet. I think it combines an elusive, mysterious harmonic pallette a la faure, with a more generally Sinister sound, a la EA Poe/Baudelaire. Caplet/Pierne meet a doped up Szymanowski? Maybe not thaaat hallucinatory, but still a very strong profile,... almost reminds me of Roy Harris, in that modal way.

I guess I'm starting to warm up to the 3 String Quartets and this PQ, all written around the same early phase. Perhaps it's that I find their length arrogant, or their seeming perfection of inspiration,... they certainly seem to inhabit the world of the 'Lilies' and such paintings of gardens and such,... very perfumed, but not sexual (a la Szymanowski),... very lazy sounding a la Villa-Lobos of the 3rd String Quartet. I'd even put a tiny dab of Ives in there (or Cowell perhaps?).

I have not heard any of Koechlin's chamber works, but the way you're describing them, it won't be long before this will change.

[DavidW]

After listening to the Jungle Book,... well Koechlin has too much of a new agey feel to him for my taste, but thanks for pointing him out to me.

[Mirror Image]

After listening to the Jungle Book,... well Koechlin has too much of a new agey feel to him for my taste, but thanks for pointing him out to me.

Wow...that's a quick dismissal. But you're certainly entitled to your opinion as I am mine about Messiaen, which was like getting ripped to shreds by a pack of wolves.

[DavidW]

Yeah you don't mess with Messiaen fans!

[Mirror Image]

Yeah you don't mess with Messiaen fans!

God forbid I do that! That's a taboo around here!

[cilgwyn]

I listened to 'Le Docteur Fabricius' twice last night after listening to the shorter work on the (Hanssler) cd. After an imposing and relatively easy to listen to opening the writing gets very strenuous,to say the least;but compared to Messiaen (oops! Must be careful) it's not too much of a problem. But the big suprise is on track 10 of the cd,at approximately 3' 35" in. Suddenly,what I can only describe as an astonishing (and I MEAN astonishing) glissando (or something like that,I'm not a musician) on the Ondes Martenot,swooping up and down the scales,followed by some wonderfully evocative & very quiet writing for it (haunting,I call it),and after that the music becomes much more approachable & traditionally melodic. A marvellous piece,well worth the trip.
  By the way,I have 'Le buisson ardent' here (Marco Polo). Any comments on this piece. It'll be going on later!

[cilgwyn]

But only after 'Blossom Dearie'!

[Mirror Image]

I listened to 'Le Docteur Fabricius' twice last night after listening to the shorter work on the (Hanssler) cd. After an imposing and relatively easy to listen to opening the writing gets very strenuous,to say the least;but compared to Messiaen (oops! Must be careful) it's not too much of a problem. But the big suprise is on track 10 of the cd,at approximately 3' 35" in. Suddenly,what I can only describe as an astonishing (and I MEAN astonishing) glissando (or something like that,I'm not a musician) on the Ondes Martenot,swooping up and down the scales,followed by some wonderfully evocative & very quiet writing for it (haunting,I call it),and after that the music becomes much more approachable & traditionally melodic. A marvellous piece,well worth the trip.
  By the way,I have 'Le buisson ardent' here (Marco Polo). Any comments on this piece. It'll be going on later!

Le Docteur Fabricius is a fine piece, cilgwyn. I've listened to it many times, and like you, I love the journey it takes you on. It's like one giant acid trip.

Le buisson ardent, as with all of Koechlin's music, is just very hard to describe, but you will like it I'm sure.

[cilgwyn]

Actually,I didn't expect a description,I just wondered what you thought of the piece as you don't seem to have mentioned it much here. I get the feeling it's not one of your favourites.
Koechlin seems to share some affinities with Schmitt. Some of his music is very lush,almost impressionistic. At times his music is acerbic,sinewy,strenuous,even dissonant. Other than that they are two very different people.
  Your observation about music being very difficult to describe reminds me of a very tongue in cheek thread on the old defunct R3 Message board in which forum users attempted to describe orchestral music in terms of 'mouth music' (the kind of thing you do in the bath or while washing up?) ie:

Holst's  'Mars': (opening bars) BAH-BUH-BUH,BUH BUUUM! BAAAH! BAAAH! (etc)
Khatchaturian: 'Sabre Dance' : Duhduhduhduhdaraduradaraduraduraduraduraduheeeeyooooooooooooow!

Or Koechlins 'Ondes Martenot' : oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeooooooooooooooooHHH!

You get the drift!
Anyway,I'm off before the men in white coats arrive!!!

[cilgwyn]

See,it is possible to describe music!

[Mirror Image]

Actually,I didn't expect a description,I just wondered what you thought of the piece as you don't seem to have mentioned it much here. I get the feeling it's not one of your favourites.
Koechlin seems to share some affinities with Schmitt. Some of his music is very lush,almost impressionistic. At times his music is acerbic,sinewy,strenuous,even dissonant. Other than that they are two very different people.
  Your observation about music being very difficult to describe reminds me of a very tongue in cheek thread on the old defunct R3 Message board in which forum users attempted to describe orchestral music in terms of 'mouth music' (the kind of thing you do in the bath or while washing up?) ie:

Holst's  'Mars': (opening bars) BAH-BUH-BUH,BUH BUUUM! BAAAH! BAAAH! (etc)
Khatchaturian: 'Sabre Dance' : Duhduhduhduhdaraduradaraduraduraduraduraduheeeeyooooooooooooow!

Or Koechlins 'Ondes Martenot' : oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeooooooooooooooooHHH!

You get the drift!
Anyway,I'm off before the men in white coats arrive!!!

Well perhaps you have an easier time describing music than I do. By the way, I love Le buisson ardent. The last 8-9 minutes of this work are absolutely gorgeous.

[cilgwyn]

Yes,Malcolm Macdonald ('The Symphonies of Havergal Brian Kahn & Averill) eat your heart out. I'll have to write a book.Seriously,he's one of the few who have really pulled off the very difficult,if not next to impossible,art of using words to describe what music actually sounds like. (The books themselves are classics and really SHOULD be re-published).
'Blossom Dearie' is still on. It's a 2cd set,so 'Le buisson ardent' won't be on just yet. If you haven't heard 'Blossom Dearie' I won't try and describe her. 'A soft little whispery,warm,humorous sounding voice' could put people off.
Regarding,the recording of 'The Jungle Book' mentioned above. In my humble opinion,people who applaud after every single movement or part of a piece of music are every bit as bad as those wretched 'coughers' who fill up concert halls these days.
Idiots! How can Koechlin's music evoke the jungles of Kipling's India when your ears are being ambushed by clappers? Tigers yes,but not clappers! Throw 'em out,I say,or chop their hands off!