Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)

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Yes,Malcolm Macdonald ('The Symphonies of Havergal Brian Kahn & Averill) eat your heart out. I'll have to write a book.Seriously,he's one of the few who have really pulled off the very difficult,if not next to impossible,art of using words to describe what music actually sounds like. (The books themselves are classics and really SHOULD be re-published).
'Blossom Dearie' is still on. It's a 2cd set,so 'Le buisson ardent' won't be on just yet. If you haven't heard 'Blossom Dearie' I won't try and describe her. 'A soft little whispery,warm,humorous sounding voice' could put people off.
Regarding,the recording of 'The Jungle Book' mentioned above. In my humble opinion,people who applaud after every single movement or part of a piece of music are every bit as bad as those wretched 'coughers' who fill up concert halls these days.
Idiots! How can Koechlin's music evoke the jungles of Kipling's India when your ears are being ambushed by clappers? Tigers yes,but not clappers! Throw 'em out,I say,or chop their hands off!

Well said. Maybe you should write a book.

[cilgwyn]

I should have mentioned the other pieces on the disc. 'Au loin,piece symphonique' (Insert: loud applause here!),which makes a lovely opener. 'Sur les flots lointains,poeme symphonique' (Insert loud applause here!) folows on track 2 & 'Hello?',I think it's on now? (cordless headphones,that's the trouble,the cd players downstairs). And after 'Le buisson ardent'* (Insert loud applause here!) on track 4 'Sur les flots lointains' for strings (Insert loud applause here!). I think I'm going to enjoy this,minus the clapping of course.

* not it's full title I note.

[Mirror Image]

I should have mentioned the other pieces on the disc. 'Au loin,piece symphonique' (Insert: loud applause here!),which makes a lovely opener. 'Sur les flots lointains,poeme symphonique' (Insert loud applause here!) folows on track 2 & 'Hello?',I think it's on now? (cordless headphones,that's the trouble,the cd players downstairs). And after 'Le buisson ardent'* (Insert loud applause here!) on track 4 'Sur les flots lointains' for strings (Insert loud applause here!). I think I'm going to enjoy this,minus the clapping of course.

* not it's full title I note.

This is the only Segerstam disc I don't own. I think I'm going to have to get it as I don't have Au loin or Sur les flots lointains. Please let me know what you think of these works.

[cilgwyn]

Actually,see my comment on the Brian thread. 'Whoaaaa!' This really IS something!!!!

[cilgwyn]

I haven't got that far yet,but the first piece was absolutely lovely. 'Le buisson ardent' is pretty spectacular stuff for 'ondes martenot' fanciers. The way the instrument suddenly shoots in. Some of this is wild,wacky,stunningly virtuosic music,but on the other side of the coin there are the lovely serene passages and those bits where Koechlin 'ondes martenot' sings hauntingly as if to itself. This has to be one of Marco Polo's best discs. I'm cooking some green beans at the moment so it's hard to follow it as closely as I'd like to,but this is the aural equivalent of a glittering banquet. Koechlin's use of timbe,colour and texture tickles your shell like. It's marvellous.

[Mirror Image]

I haven't got that far yet,but the first piece was absolutely lovely. 'Le buisson ardent' is pretty spectacular stuff for 'ondes martenot' fanciers. The way the instrument suddenly shoots in. Some of this is wild,wacky,stunningly virtuosic music,but on the other side of the coin there are the lovely serene passages and those bits where Koechlin 'ondes martenot' sings hauntingly as if to itself. This has to be one of Marco Polo's best discs. I'm cooking some green beans at the moment so it's hard to follow it as closely as I'd like to,but this is the aural equivalent of a glittering banquet. Koechlin's use of timbe,colour and texture tickles your shell like. It's marvellous.

Excellent and very colorful description as well! I just bought this recording, so I look forward to hearing another interpretation of Le buisson ardent. Do you think Koechlin's music would be difficult to perform for an orchestra? I think in my estimation that one of the most difficult things in Koechlin's music would be getting the right balances and the only way for this to happen is to have a very talented conductor on the podium who can hear this. Of course there are many virtuosic passages in Koechlin's music, but the attention that needs to be made to detail is very important. If there's one wrong note, then the whole thing could very well collapse. It reminds me of the attention that needs to be made in performance of say Berg's Violin Concerto or Three Pieces for Orchestra where everything has a place and must be played as accurately as possible.

[Mirror Image]

I have a bit of a gripe here, it seems to be okay for people to dismiss Koechlin, like haydnguy has done, and it doesn't bother me that people don't like his music, but it's not okay for me to say I dislike Messiaen's music and when I do I get a whole panel of know-it-all, holier than thou eggheads telling me that I'm wrong for disliking his music. Music is subjective people. We are all wired differently. Do you people go telling Johan he's crazy for liking Brian's music? I mean do you so quickly judge him that it becomes almost insanely impossible for him to speak his mind again?

Anyway, it's the dreadful double standards of this forum that keep me from expressing myself freely or the way I think I should be allowed to do.

[Henk]

I have a bit of a grip here, it seems to be okay for people to dismiss Koechlin, like haydnguy has done, and it doesn't bother me that people don't like his music, but it's not okay for me to say I dislike Messiaen's music and when I do I get a whole panel of know-it-all, holier than thou eggheads telling me that I'm wrong for disliking his music. Music is subjective people. We are all wired differently. Do you people go telling Johan he's crazy for liking Brian's music? I mean do you so quickly judge him that it becomes almost insanely impossible for him to speak his mind again?

Anyway, it's the dreadful double standards of this forum that keep me from expressing myself freely or the way I think I should be allowed to do.

It's up to Johan to like Brian.

It's true people lead different lives and like different things. That's only a good thing.

For Johan liking Brian is a kind of treatment however. A treatment to the soul other people can't understand, and which is exclusive for fans of Brian. Since when do classical composers have 'fans'? And why is a composer like Brain called a 'symphonist'?

Henk

[Scarpia]

I have a bit of a grip here, it seems to be okay for people to dismiss Koechlin, like haydnguy has done, and it doesn't bother me that people don't like his music, but it's not okay for me to say I dislike Messiaen's music and when I do I get a whole panel of know-it-all, holier than thou eggheads telling me that I'm wrong for disliking his music. Music is subjective people. We are all wired differently. Do you people go telling Johan he's crazy for liking Brian's music? I mean do you so quickly judge him that it becomes almost insanely impossible for him to speak his mind again?

Anyway, it's the dreadful double standards of this forum that keep me from expressing myself freely or the way I think I should be allowed to do.

Haydnguy didn't ridicule Koechlin or claim the music had no value, he just said "too new-age for my taste."   The bad karma that came from your criticism of Messiaen arose because you fairly explicitly described Messiaen's music as worthless, despite being familiar with very little of it.  If there is a double standard here, it is that you take offence just because someone fails to agree with your enthusiasm for your favorite composer , then you turn around and condemn in the strongest terms music that, in some cases, you have not even heard.

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Haydnguy didn't ridicule Koechlin or claim the music had no value, he just said "too new-age for my taste."   The bad karma that came from your criticism of Messiaen arose because you fairly explicitly described Messiaen's music as worthless, despite being familiar with very little of it.  If there is a double standard here, it is that you take offence just because someone fails to agree with your enthusiasm for your favorite composer , then you turn around and condemn in the strongest terms music that, in some cases, you have not even heard.

Don't give me that crap, Scarpia. You know good and well that people said some pretty nasty things to me because of what I said about Messiaen. I know haydnguy didn't ridicule Koechlin and if he did what could I possibly do to change his mind? Nothing. It seems to me that people around here are able to speak freely, but when I have something negative to say about their favorite composers, then that is somehow an abomination.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

It's up to Johan to like Brian.

It's true people lead different lives and like different things. That's only a good thing.

For Johan liking Brian is a kind of treatment however. A treatment to the soul other people can't understand, and which is exclusive for fans of Brian. Since when do classical composers have 'fans'? And why is a composer like Brain called a 'symphonist'?

Henk

Henk, I like Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Stravinsky, Nielsen, Sibelius et cetera, et cetera. And I like Brian. Not because he is 'difficult' and I want to feel special by 'understanding' him. No, just because I love the music and it speaks to me (and I'm certainly not alone in this). You're free not to like him. But don't impute to me motives I don't have. I fell in love with Brian's music when I was sixteen and the most rabid Mahlerian in history... And why call Brian a 'symphonist'? Why call you a human being? He is. You are.

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Henk, I like Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Stravinsky, Nielsen, Sibelius et cetera, et cetera. And I like Brian. Not because he is 'difficult' and I want to feel special by 'understanding' him. No, just because I love the music and it speaks to me (and I'm certainly not alone in this). You're free not to like him. But don't impute to me motives I don't have. I fell in love with Brian's music when I was sixteen and the most rabid Mahlerian in history... And why call Brian a 'symphonist'? Why call you a human being? He is. You are.

I feel the same way about Koechlin. I like the music. I like Brian's music too, so I guess that makes me extra special. Anyway, Brian was a symphonist, why would anything indicate that he wasn't? He composed 32 symphonies, so I think this qualifies him as one.

[Scarpia]

Don't give me that crap, Scarpia. You know good and well that people said some pretty nasty things to me because of what I said about Messiaen. I know haydnguy didn't ridicule Koechlin and if he did what could I possibly do to change his mind? Nothing. It seems to me that people around here are able to speak freely, but when I have something negative to say about their favorite composers, then that is somehow an abomination.

That's the weird thing.  No one said anything particularly nasty to you.  After you ridiculed Messiaen they mostly praised Messiaen for having the virtues you claimed he lacked, and you took offence.

For instance, Sforzando wrote:

Which is precisely why it is worth debating, because one's individual perceptions may reflect a skewed view of reality that if challenged may lead to greater insight and growth as a listener.

and you responded

Well you can debate by yourself. You will be doing this anyway, because I already told you that I don't care for his music, but if you're so hellbent on changing my opinion, therefore trying to prove Messiaen's worth to me, then by all means go right ahead. All I said I don't care for his music and people here act like it's the end of the world. Get over it. It's just one man's opinion. People have tried to get me into his music and have failed because I don't hear anything great about it. Like I said, it's outer space music with no rhyme or reason, it's just an endless series of random notes that make no logical sense to me.

Why so defensive?  All he said was that if you pay attention to other peoples opinions you might change your mind.

[Henk]

Henk, I like Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Stravinsky, Nielsen, Sibelius et cetera, et cetera. And I like Brian. Not because he is 'difficult' and I want to feel special by 'understanding' him. No, just because I love the music and it speaks to me (and I'm certainly not alone in this). You're free not to like him. But don't impute to me motives I don't have. I fell in love with Brian's music when I was sixteen and the most rabid Mahlerian in history... And why call Brian a 'symphonist'? Why call you a human being? He is. You are.

Ok, I don't believe you really have these motives, but you make me think so however. You convinced me now, sorry for having bothered you with it, you corrected the image I had, but which was possibly evoked by you.

Let's not call Brian an ordinary late-romantic symphonist, but let's give the other late-romantic composers the same, obscure and to-forget status of Brian. So with Brian all late-romantic music will considered to be strange and bad music. That may be the good thing about Brian!

Joking a bit, but this is how it can end up with late-romantic music actually.

Henk

[Mirror Image]

That's the weird thing.  No one said anything particularly nasty to you.  After you ridiculed Messiaen they mostly praised Messiaen for having the virtues you claimed he lacked, and you took offence.

For instance, Sforzando wrote:

and you responded

Why so defensive?  All he said was that if you pay attention to other peoples opinions you might change your mind.

I didn't take offense to anything, Scarpia. I said I don't like Messiaen's music and thought it was worthless, which I still believe it is, and people started crying and howling like a bunch of babies. That's what happened. Now, moving along...

Who's your favorite composer or the one composer you couldn't live without?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Ok, I don't believe you really have these motives, but you make me think so however. You convinced me now, sorry for having bothered you with it, you corrected the image I had, but which was possibly evoked by you.

Didn't want to give that impression. I am glad that's cleared up now. 

Let's not call Brian an ordinary late-romantic symphonist, but let's give the other late-romantic composers the same, obscure and to-forget status of Brian. So with Brian all late-romantic music will considered to be strange and bad music. That may be the good thing about Brian!

I am so glad you can see Brian's usefulness. 

[Scarpia]

I didn't take offense to anything, Scarpia. I said I don't like Messiaen's music and thought it was worthless, which I still believe it is, and people started crying and howling like a bunch of babies. That's what happened. Now, moving along...

You don't see a distinction between saying you don't like something and saying it is "worthless?"

Who's your favorite composer or the one composer you couldn't live without?

I don't think there is a composer I couldn't live without.  But if I was forced to spend the rest of my life listening to only one composer, I'd probably pick Brahms.

[Henk]

I don't think there is a composer I couldn't live without.  But if I was forced to spend the rest of my life listening to only one composer, I'd probably pick Brahms.

I like that bending of question.

Henk

[Mirror Image]

You don't see a distinction between saying you don't like something and saying it is "worthless?"

You don't see a distinction from one man's opinion vs. another man's opinion? I mean are you really that sensitive, Scarpia, that you can't deal with the fact that somebody could hate a composer's music?

I don't think there is a composer I couldn't live without.  But if I was forced to spend the rest of my life listening to only one composer, I'd probably pick Brahms.

You just had to pick Brahms didn't you? I don't mind Brahms, but his music doesn't do much for me these days. We all grow as listeners.

[Scarpia]

You don't see a distinction from one man's opinion vs. another man's opinion? I mean are you really that sensitive, Scarpia, that you can't deal with the fact that somebody could hate a composer's music?

The issue is the same issue you have over and over.  1)  You say composer X is worthless.  2) Various people protest the composer X is not worthless.  3)  You take umbrage that you are not allowed entertain your opinion.  I see two inconsistencies.  First, the statement that composer X is worthless is not an assertion of preference, it is a statement about the objective worth of the composers work.  Second, defense of the composer you have ridiculed is not an offense against you, since your preference is not at issue, but the intrinsic value of the composer you have criticized.