Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)

[Mirror Image]

The issue is the same issue you have over and over.  1)  You say composer X is worthless.  2) Various people protest the composer X is not worthless.  3)  You take umbrage that you are not allowed entertain your opinion.  I see two inconsistencies.  First, the statement that composer X is worthless is not an assertion of preference, it is a statement about the objective worth of the composers work.  Second, defense of the composer you have ridiculed is not an offense against you, since your preference is not at issue, but the intrinsic value of the composer you have criticized.

And your point? Messiaen's music IS worthless to me. If I don't like a composer, I'm allowed to express my opinion. People can defend him all they want to, but what I'm saying is that it's a pointless argument. I still feel the same way after the wreckage. Life's about choices. If haydnfan doesn't want to listen to Koechlin's music then he has every right to do so and speak about his distaste for his music, which I'm not offended by. I like Koechlin no matter what somebody else thinks or says about his music. People can post all their rants here if they so wish to do so. It still doesn't change the fact that I'm moved by the music. I don't understand why people feel the need to defend a composer they like. We're all going to enjoy the music we enjoy regardless of what the outside world thinks anyway, right?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

And your point? Messiaen's music IS worthless to me. If I don't like a composer, I'm allowed to express my opinion. People can defend him all they want to, but what I'm saying is that it's a pointless argument. I still feel the same way after the wreckage.

If someone says 'Koechlin's music is worthless to me', that isn't the same as saying 'Koechlin's music is worthless'. You must see there is a difference there? Of course you can say X's music doesn't mean a thing to you. But you can expect a strong reaction when such a feeling/opinion is proclaimed as objective truth. That's what Scarpia is saying.

And your point? Messiaen's music IS worthless to me. If I don't like a composer, I'm allowed to express my opinion. People can defend him all they want to, but what I'm saying is that it's a pointless argument. I still feel the same way after the wreckage. Life's about choices. If haydnfan doesn't want to listen to Koechlin's music then he has every right to do so and speak about his distaste for his music, which I'm not offended by. I like Koechlin no matter what somebody else thinks or says about his music. People can post all their rants here if they so wish to do so. It still doesn't change the fact that I'm moved by the music. I don't understand why people feel the need to defend a composer they like. We're all going to enjoy the music we enjoy regardless of what the outside world thinks anyway, right?

Do you really mean that? I think that anyone who loves a composer so much he likes to 'spread the word', will also want to defend him. Just because he loves the music.

[Mirror Image]

If someone says 'Koechlin's music is worthless to me', that isn't the same as saying 'Koechlin's music is worthless'. You must see there is a difference there? Of course you can say X's music doesn't mean a thing to you. But you can expect a strong reaction when such a feeling/opinion is proclaimed as objective truth. That's what Scarpia is saying.

And my point is why defend a composer who obviously means nothing to somebody else. The argument is pointless. Look, I just like to get a rise out of people from time to time and Messiaen was the perfect target for that, but I still hate his music. That won't change.

[Scarpia]

And my point is why defend a composer who obviously means nothing to somebody else. The argument is pointless. Look, I just like to get a rise out of people from time to time and Messiaen was the perfect target for that, but I still hate his music. That won't change.

If you just want to "get a rise out of people" why do you bitch and moan when you succeed?

[Mirror Image]

Do you really mean that? I think that anyone who loves a composer so much he likes to 'spread the word', will also want to defend him. Just because he loves the music.

Music is subjective, Johan. Why would I want to defend a composer I enjoy? Where's the logic in that? Not everybody likes the same things I like.

[Mirror Image]

If you just want to "get a rise out of people" why do you bitch and moan when you succeed?

It creates tension. If all I did was say I hate Messiaen's music and fled the scene where's the fun in that? But seriously, I was really just wanting to bash Messiaen, which I succeeded in doing. That f****** douchebag.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Music is subjective, Johan. Why would I want to defend a composer I enjoy? Where's the logic in that?

Liking music is subjective, true. But equating subjective enjoyment with objective value is something different. If someone thinks Brian's music is worthless, I will try to explain why I think it isn't. That will not make him or her like the music, but it will perhaps make clear what is there to appreciate. That's all.

[Mirror Image]

Liking music is subjective, true. But equating subjective enjoyment with objective value is something different. If someone thinks Brian's music is worthless, I will try to explain why I think it isn't. That will not make him or her like the music, but it will perhaps make clear what is there to appreciate. That's all.

If someone thinks Brian's music is worthless, then that's their right. Henk doesn't like his music? So what? It's not the end of the world because two people disagree.

[Henk]

If someone thinks Brian's music is worthless, then that's their right. Henk doesn't like his music? So what? It's not the end of the world because two people disagree.

I think to say some music is worthless doesn't much right to the efforts a composer has made. One can say that music is just bad and stimulate people in wrong directions, but to say it's worthless I just find a wrong word. Maybe one can say the people listening to some bad music are worthless. I get associations by this word that has not much to do with music, but with disqualifying behavior or mentality of people in a somewhat moral sense.

Henk

[Mirror Image]

I think to say some music is worthless doesn't much right to the efforts a composer has made. One can say that music is just bad and stimulate people in wrong directions, but to say it's worthless I just find a wrong word. Maybe one can say the people listening to some bad music are worthless. I get associations by this word that has not much to do with music, but with disqualifying behavior or mentality of people in a somewhat moral sense.

Henk

Okay how about the word despicable? Will this work?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

If someone thinks Brian's music is worthless, then that's their right. Henk doesn't like his music? So what? It's not the end of the world because two people disagree.

Oh yes, of course it's their right. No problem. But worth is linked to taste and aesthetic discrimination. With worth you enter a public arena. If it is enough for you to love and to hate, fair enough. But once you vent an opinion, you can expect a reaction. If you don't want to defend a composer, don't propagate him either. Why even try? I think the value of seriously discussing the merits of an artist is in that it teaches you something, transcending the stalemate of 'I like it and you don't. End of story.'

[Mirror Image]

Oh yes, of course it's their right. No problem. But worth is linked to taste and aesthetic discrimination. With worth you enter a public arena. If it is enough for you to love and to hate, fair enough. But once you vent an opinion, you can expect a reaction. If you don't want to defend a composer, don't propagate him either. Why even try? I think the value of seriously discussing the merits of an artist is in that it teaches you something, transcending the stalemate of 'I like it and you don't. End of story.'

So what am I to do about haydnguy's comment that Koechlin's music is too "new agey" for him?

[Henk]

Okay how about the word despicable? Will this work?

You're searching for the most derogatory word that's appropriate?

I would like to use the word 'mendacious'.

But the best thing to do, is to give your subjective experience and try to explain why you don't like some music or a composer. Nietzsche does so and influenced me strongly in this way.

Henk

[Mirror Image]

Special update: I have just bought the 18-CD box set of Messiaen on Erato simply titled the Messiaen Edition. I'm going to be open-minded about this and I'm also going to be stubborn in my pursuit of his music. I will find something I enjoy.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

So what am I to do about haydnguy's comment that Koechlin's music is too "new agey" for him?

Ask him what he means by that. And if he can, see if it adds to your understanding of the music, if it does the music justice or not. If it doesn't, try to formulate why the music isn't 'new-agey'. In this way, there is a conversation which might make not only Koechlin's music clearer, but your own views, too, and those of haydnguy. GMG is a forum. And forum implies an exchange of ideas. Even a battle...

[Bulldog]

Look, I just like to get a rise out of people from time to time and Messiaen was the perfect target for that, but I still hate his music. That won't change.

Do you really expect members to get erections from your loopy statements?

[Mirror Image]

Ask him what he means by that. And if he can, see if it adds to your understanding of the music, if it does the music justice or not. If it doesn't, try to formulate why the music isn't 'new-agey'. In this way, there is a conversation which might make not only Koechlin's music clearer, but your own views, too, and those of haydnguy. GMG is a forum. And forum implies an exchange of ideas. Even a battle...

I sent him a PM yesterday explain my own views of Koechlin's music, but I don't think I said it LOUD ENOUGH!!!!

[Mirror Image]

Do you really expect members to get erections from your loopy statements?

Lol.... Loopy. I like that word. Wasn't this word used by Scarpia to describe some of Messiaen's later music?

[Bulldog]

Special update: I have just bought the 15-CD box set of Messiaen on Erato simply titled the Messiaen Edition. I'm going to be open-minded about this and I'm also going to be stubborn in my pursuit of his music. I will find something I enjoy.

You're quite the extremist, acquiring 15 cds of a worthless composer.

[Mirror Image]

You're quite the extremist, acquiring 15 cds of a worthless composer.

I'm pretty stubborn that's for sure, but I'm stubborn about the right things. I'm going to listen this time with an open-mind. In all honesty, I find it astonishing that people came to the defense of this composer, not because he's a "bad" composer, but because if this kind of attitude is so strong than there must be something for me in his output. Makes me feel proud to be apart of this forum.

By the way, I'm really only joking when I called Messiaen's music worthless. That was an ignorant thing to say and I paid dearly for saying it.