Ahmed Adnan Saygun 1907-1991

Started by Guido, November 12, 2008, 08:54:51 AM

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Scion7

When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Christo

... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

vandermolen

Quote from: Christo on August 22, 2016, 07:01:08 AM
It surely is; many thanks.
Yes, great to see him. My Turkish is a bit rusty but I shall forward it to my Turkish friend. You do get a sense of his personality. It has encouraged me to listen to more Saygun.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

calyptorhynchus

Saygun is a favorite of mine. Listening to the 4th and 5th Symphonies today reminded me of Robert Simpson's music, brass blasting away.

;D
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

vandermolen

My favourite Saygun CD:
[asin]B000069KKZ[/asin]
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Todd






One of the consequences of avid collecting is that one might from time to time end up with multiple recordings of obscure works.  Case in point, Ahmed Adnan Saygun's Piano Concertos.  As far as I can tell, only three recordings have been made of these works, and Turkish pianist Gülsin Onay is the soloist in all of them.  She's the only Saygun "specialist" I know of, and she has recorded some of the composer's solo piano works, too.  I picked up the Koch Schwann recording as a cutout from BRO many, many moons ago, and I picked up the CPO recording as a new-ish release many moons ago.  I'd never done an A/B before, so I figured now was as good a time as any.

I started with the Koch recording of the First, penned in the 50s.  My memories associated the music with Bartok, and there's good reason for that, as the Bartok style in his first two piano concertos can be heard in this work.   So too can Prokofiev and Ravel.  Some of the wind writing sounds almost transplanted from Ravel.  A standard fast-slow-fast structure is used for the work, with folk or folk-inspired music, and lots of staccato playing is to be heard, especially in the outer movements.  The orchestration is often vibrant, though it's a bit sparse in the slow movement.  In the Koch recording, Onay seems quite comfortable in her part, and the orchestra plays more than ably.  The sound is slightly hard-edged, but not too bad, and it is not overly bright.  The CPO recording is better in every regard.  The sound is more modern and more realistic.  The soloist sounds a bit larger compared to the orchestra, but nothing out of the ordinary.  The piano sounds better and more realistic, and the orchestral playing is a bit tighter.  Howard Griffiths gets slightly more refined playing from his band, with smoother transitions, but perhaps Aykal's occasionally more robust assertiveness or aggression is really more in the spirit of the piece.  Whatever the case may be, I definitely prefer the CPO recording.

The Second, from the 80s, marries more lush and refined orchestration with some more avant-garde styling, and some occasionally even harsher piano writing.  It's fast-slow-fast again, with a more melancholy, darker Lento slow movement.  The same sonic and artistic attributes present in the First are present here, and though it might seem more refined playing might better suit the work, the older Koch recording might be slightly preferable.  That written, even though I own both recordings and I therefore don't have to choose, if forced to choose, I'd take the CPO disc as the keeper.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

SurprisedByBeauty

This is something I've long wanted to do, and of course it took several OTHER projects that I should be working on right now for me to finally do that, namely the cleaning, updating, and generally sprucing-up of the Recommended Recordings Sections of the Surprised By Beauty website.

Now I've tackled Ahmad Saygun & Erich Wolfgang Korngold:


Ahmed Saygun – Recommended Recordings


https://surprisedbybeautyorg.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/ahmed-saygun-recommended-recordings/


Baron Scarpia

#47
I have listened to the cpo series of symphonies in its entirety, and regard Saygun as a composer which deserves a place among the very finest composers of the 20th century. The 4th symphony in particular comes to mind, with its ravishing slow movement. The music in the symphonies is notable for its range of expression, spanning convulsive struggle to serene ecstasy. My reaction to the piano concerti is similar. They come across to me as symphonies with piano.

The one major part of his output I have not listened to yet is the string quartets. From my background reading, they seem to elicit statements that Saygun is the Turkish Bartok. I find this an in appropriate comparison because (not taking string quartets into account) I don't notice any particular stylistic similarity, and because I generally enjoy the music of Saygun more than that of Bartok.

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 07, 2018, 09:20:31 AM
I have listened to the cpo series of symphonies in its entirety, and regard Saygun as a composer which deserves a place among the very finest composers of the 20th century. The 4th symphony in particular comes to mind, with its ravishing slow movement. The music in the symphonies is notable for its range of expression, spanning convulsive struggle to serene ecstasy. My reaction to the piano concerti is similar. They come across to me as symphonies with piano.

The one major part of his output I have not listened to yet is the string quartets. From my background reading, they seem to elicit statements that Saygun is the Turkish Bartok. I find this an in appropriate comparison because (not taking string quartets into account) I don't notice any particular stylistic similarity, and because I generally enjoy the music of Saygun more than that of Bartok.

The moniker also has to do with Saygun's close relationship with Bartok and especially with his work in the field of enthomusicology. (And because of his massive biography of Bartok.)

Baron Scarpia

 :o

Can we agree that Bartok is the Hungarian Saygun?

;D

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 07, 2018, 10:10:26 AM
:o

Can we agree that Bartok is the Hungarian Saygun?

;D

I think, this is generally decided by the masses, not the individual. After all, there are probably more Bartok-lovers who can be lured to Saygun with this simplistic premise, than the other way around.
And then there is the timeline; Saygun was a couple decades Bartok's junior and v. much his junior partner on their excursions together. But other than that, yes, of course. Let's do that.

vandermolen

#51
I like this composer as well - especially Symphony 2
[asin]B000069KKZ[/asin]
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Baron Scarpia

Quote from: vandermolen on May 26, 2017, 10:06:49 PM
My favourite Saygun CD:
[asin]B000069KKZ[/asin]

Not only do you like it, but it's your favorite!  :)

(Hard to avoid repeating ones self here.) Fortunately my Saygun comments above are other a previous screen name. :)

vandermolen

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 07, 2018, 03:28:04 PM
Not only do you like it, but it's your favorite!  :)

(Hard to avoid repeating ones self here.) Fortunately my Saygun comments above are other a previous screen name. :)

Yes, I see what you mean - like being trapped in a time warp.
8)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Brian

#54
Quote from: Brian on July 06, 2021, 07:30:40 AM
I used to always find Saygun tough to crack, which was frustrating to me as a half Turkish person  ;D , but have seen so many posting about his symphonies here on GMG the last week or two, it is clearly time to try again.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 06, 2021, 08:55:02 AM
Does the music simply not grab you or do you actually find the language difficult? (The latter doesn't seem possible given that his music is no more difficult than say Bartok's orchestral music.)

Sarge
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 06, 2021, 10:24:07 AM
Looking forward to reading your 'revised' opinion, Brian. :)

Over the last two days I've listened to the first three symphonies and first piano concerto, with probably more listening to come, but I feel able to reply to you guys now. Saygun's musical language I agree now is not "tough" in the sense of being superficially unpleasant or unmemorable. In fact his way with an orchestra is like nobody else's and already memorable for that (like the super weird lower brass trio section in No. 3's third movement). The Bartók comparison is apt. Of course, a decade ago I didn't like much Bartók, either. What is "tough," perhaps, is his emotional language - basically all of the symphonies are turbulent, grumpy, troubled. Occasionally, he makes a strange decision that catches me off guard. Like, after the epic first two movements of No. 3 (very well sustained), there's the five-minute finale which sort of just ends. I definitely thought, "Wait, was that it?"

I think the mismatch of expectation vs. reality, back when I first listened to Saygun in 2011 or whenever it was, was, hey, here's a really famous Turkish composer! And yet there is basically no Turkish influence in this music. Symphony No. 1 has a good deal of folk-like material in the slow movement and finale, and No. 3 briefly has a little flash of folk drumming. But apart from No. 1, he buries it even more deeply than Bartók does, or possibly he is using eastern Anatolian/Kurdish folk materials that are less familiar to me. My mom is Turkish and likes classical music, but she thinks Sibelius, Grieg, Bruckner, and Nielsen are terrifying modernists who wrote ugly music, so I definitely can't play her any Saygun.  ;D :(

This will all sound like I didn't like it...except I did  ;D ;D . Symphony No. 1 and Piano Concerto No. 1 being my favorites so far. The piano concerto in particular is full of weird and cool and interesting sounds. Will definitely close out the cycle and hit the rest of the concertos. I remember listening to the string instrument concertos only a year or two ago; the rest of it has been at least 5+ years.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Brian on July 07, 2021, 07:43:31 AM
Over the last two days I've listened to the first three symphonies and first piano concerto, with probably more listening to come, but I feel able to reply to you guys now. Saygun's musical language I agree now is not "tough" in the sense of being superficially unpleasant or unmemorable. In fact his way with an orchestra is like nobody else's and already memorable for that (like the super weird lower brass trio section in No. 3's third movement). The Bartók comparison is apt. Of course, a decade ago I didn't like much Bartók, either. What is "tough," perhaps, is his emotional language - basically all of the symphonies are turbulent, grumpy, troubled. Occasionally, he makes a strange decision that catches me off guard. Like, after the epic first two movements of No. 3 (very well sustained), there's the five-minute finale which sort of just ends. I definitely thought, "Wait, was that it?"

I think the mismatch of expectation vs. reality, back when I first listened to Saygun in 2011 or whenever it was, was, hey, here's a really famous Turkish composer! And yet there is basically no Turkish influence in this music. Symphony No. 1 has a good deal of folk-like material in the slow movement and finale, and No. 3 briefly has a little flash of folk drumming. But apart from No. 1, he buries it even more deeply than Bartók does, or possibly he is using eastern Anatolian/Kurdish folk materials that are less familiar to me. My mom is Turkish and likes classical music, but she thinks Sibelius, Grieg, Bruckner, and Nielsen are terrifying modernists who wrote ugly music, so I definitely can't play her any Saygun.  ;D :(

This will all sound like I didn't like it...except I did  ;D ;D . Symphony No. 1 and Piano Concerto No. 1 being my favorites so far. The piano concerto in particular is full of weird and cool and interesting sounds. Will definitely close out the cycle and hit the rest of the concertos. I remember listening to the string instrument concertos only a year or two ago; the rest of it has been at least 5+ years.

Thanks for sharing your impressions, Brian. 8) One of the things that does bug me about Saygun is exactly what you wrote in the music is in almost a constant state of huffing and puffing without any joy being brought into the music. Also, like you, I had expected more of a Turkish folk sound from him or to have permeated some of his music. With Bartók, one of my favorites, the folk influence was apparent and he didn't feel the need to hide it. It was right in your face, but the way he used this folk influence within his music was remarkable, but also so intricately interwoven into his music that it gave him a unique compositional voice unlike any other. I'm going to try Saygun again and, hopefully, I have as much success as you did this time around. The last time I tried to listen to him, I ended up turning off a work at midpoint out of frustration.

Sergeant Rock

I'm glad Saygun is a little more to your taste this time around. Your Turkish ancestry demands you like him  :D  Seriously, I understand your objections.

Quote from: Brian on July 07, 2021, 07:43:31 AM
I think the mismatch of expectation vs. reality, back when I first listened to Saygun in 2011 or whenever it was, was, hey, here's a really famous Turkish composer! And yet there is basically no Turkish influence in this music. Symphony No. 1 has a good deal of folk-like material in the slow movement and finale, and No. 3 briefly has a little flash of folk drumming. But apart from No. 1, he buries it...

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 07, 2021, 07:56:38 AMAlso, like you, I had expected more of a Turkish folk sound from him or to have permeated some of his music.

I hear Turkish sounding music in the Suite that's coupled with the Fourth Symphony...at least a general middle eastern flavor to the music.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Mirror Image

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 07, 2021, 09:12:56 AM
I'm glad Saygun is a little more to your taste this time around. Your Turkish ancestry demands you like him  :D  Seriously, I understand your objections.

I hear Turkish sounding music in the Suite that's coupled with the Fourth Symphony...at least a general middle eastern flavor to the music.

Sarge

Very good, Sarge. I'm definitely going to be revisiting some of his music in due time.

Symphonic Addict

Good to see this composer is receiving good opinions. At first I couldn't grasp his music, but fortunately it has been changing and now I enjoy it very much. His sense of orchestral color is nothing short of brilliand and spellbinding.
Part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they have essentially no international support for a good reason: they've no wealth, they've no power, so they've no rights.

Noam Chomsky

Mirror Image

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 07, 2021, 11:13:03 AM
Good to see this composer is receiving good opinions. At first I couldn't grasp his music, but fortunately it has been changing and now I enjoy it very much. His sense of orchestral color is nothing short of brilliand and spellbinding.

To the bolded text, this is what had happened for me as well, but it does look like things are on the upswing for Saygun and myself. I finished his Symphony No. 3 not too long ago and what can I say: color me impressed! I think it's just going to take more time to fully understand his musical language of course, but for some strange reason I kind of equate him as the 'Turkish Holmboe', but only early Holmboe, not late period.