Bush Bashing -- Jimmy Carter's Turn

[Bunny]

No way the neocons blame Reagan - he is the poster boy of the GOP and they are ready to canonize him. The Bushies blame Clinton for everything.

Haven't you noticed that the Republican party is running away from Bush and neoconservatism as fast as they can?  If they continue to embrace that philosophy, the Republican party will die.  Neo conservatives placed the blame for the spread of terror and 9/11 on Reagan's and Clinton's shoulders.  According to the Neo con bible, Reagan gave them their first taste of success after the Marine barracks bombing, then Clinton withdrew the troops from Somalia (which promised to be as big a boon doggle as Iraq -- and that was a "humanitarian" mission);  then he didn't answer the bombings of the American embassies in Africa with sufficient force (he did bomb Libya and force Bin Laden to go to Afghanistan); then he didn't answer the bombing of the Cole with sufficient force; and then Bush was president for a year, and still didn't answer the bombing of the cole either (no actionable intelligence was turned over to the govt. by the Saudis).  The came 9/11 and Bush and the neo cons had to invade Afghanistan, but their real objective had always been Iraq.  They could not or would not believe that terrorism could exist unless it was state sponsored.  A failure of imagination of staggering proportions, especially when the intel on this was there for them.  they insisted that Joe Iraqi wanted American style democracy, when they knew next to nothing about Iraq and the Iraqis.  After 9/11 they forced out the two men in the intelligence departments of the govt. who knew the most about Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, Richard Clarke ( a Reagan appointee to NSA retained and promoted by Clinton) and Mike Scheuer (career CIA) -- John O'Neill had been killed on 9/11 -- and put everything in the hands of such fine and sterling fellows as Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Bremer, and last but far from least, Elliot Abrams -- the guy who brought you Iran Contra.  Oh, and Rumsfeld assured the president that he could invade with a fraction of troops needed.  The mistakes really piled on after the invasion of Iraq.  You can do your own reading to learn about that.  There are plenty of books that have been written that tell the sad story.

But you can put the blame on Carter.  History tells a different story.

[PerfectWagnerite]

But you can put the blame on Carter.  History tells a different story.

I blame them all - Reagan, Clinton, and Carter. Of course I agree with you that Iraq was mishandled. I would have withdrew the troops we have in peaceful countries like Korea and Germany and put as many as I can in Iraq and declare a state of martial-law for at least 5 years with strick curfews and the whole nine yards. But hey they thought they could do things on the cheap.

[Bunny]

Uhhh, hello? America started how many wars? (okay we kicked the Indians off their lands, that kinda sucks but hey we are making it up to them by giving them tax-free casinos right? And they make MUCH more from these casinos than they could have by farming anyway right?) Look at Europe, every other second you guys are shooting at each other: WWI, WWII, Napoleon (at least the Russians dealt with him), Alexander, the Crusades, War of the Roses, the 100 Years War. C'mon, and you think America is trigger happy?

Go ask the Sioux or the Navajo just how much they make from their casinos.  The Sioux reservation is just about the poorest place in Amerca.  The Navajos may be marginally wealthier, but they certainly don't have a good place to build casinos, or anyone willing to sink money into developing another gambling mecca in an area so poor and scarcely populated that's so close to Las Vegas.  The Hualapai are building the Grand Canyon Skywalk and tourist center, but they have yet to make a dime on it.   

[PerfectWagnerite]

Go ask the Sioux or the Navajo just how much they make from their casinos.  The Sioux reservation is just about the poorest place in Amerca.  The Navajos may be marginally wealthier, but they certainly don't have a good place to build casinos, or anyone willing to sink money into developing another gambling mecca in an area so poor and scarcely populated that's so close to Las Vegas.  The Hualapai are building the Grand Canyon Skywalk and tourist center, but they have yet to make a dime on it.   

So the next thing the Indians can do is hire John Edwards and sue the US governement for "crimes against humanity" right?

[Bunny]

I blame them all - Reagan, Clinton, and Carter. Of course I agree with you that Iraq was mishandled. I would have withdrew the troops we have in peaceful countries like Korea and Germany and put as many as I can in Iraq and declare a state of martial-law for at least 5 years with strick curfews and the whole nine yards. But hey they thought they could do things on the cheap.

Yeah, and you still would have problems.  You can't export democracy at the point of a gun, especially to people who aren't interested in having democracy.  It was  a bad idea with worse execution.  There was no reason for the USA to invade.  That's Bush's error of judgment and America is going to foot the bill for decades to come whether our troops are there or whether they are withdrawn.  If you bothered to read the papers, you would know that the army is as good as broken, no matter who's denying it.  There are not sufficient forces available to meet any new attack or threat.  What's worse, is that the National Guard is also stretched to breaking point as well.  That's why the Governor of Kansas couldn't order in the guards to help after that devastating F5 tornado.  All of the Kansas NG's equipment for cleaning up the disaster is in Iraq, and most of the troops that should have been available were sent as part of the surge.  As long as you are so gung ho in favor of military might, you  might as well enlist; they are looking for a few good men.  They now take men who haven't graduated from high school, have felony convictions, and have even reached the age of 42.  They have eased up on physical requirements as well, retaining men who have lost limbs as a result of combat.  I'm sure they will welcome you into the ranks..

[Bunny]

So the next thing the Indians can do is hire John Edwards and sue the US governement for "crimes against humanity" right?

Oh grow up!  John Edwards specializes in medical malpractice and other liability cases in N. Carolina.  You need to find a constitutional lawyer or someone with a specialty in international law and human rights abuses. 

[PerfectWagnerite]

Yeah, and you still would have problems.  You can't export democracy at the point of a gun, especially to people who aren't interested in having democracy.  It was  a bad idea with worse execution.  There was no reason for the USA to invade.  That's Bush's error of judgment and America is going to foot the bill for decades to come whether our troops are there or whether they are withdrawn.  If you bothered to read the papers, you would know that the army is as good as broken, no matter who's denying it.  There are not sufficient forces available to meet any new attack or threat.  What's worse, is that the National Guard is also stretched to breaking point as well.  That's why the Governor of Kansas couldn't order in the guards to help after that devastating F5 tornado.  All of the Kansas NG's equipment for cleaning up the disaster is in Iraq, and most of the troops that should have been available were sent as part of the surge.  As long as you are so gung ho in favor of military might, you  might as well enlist; they are looking for a few good men.  They now take men who haven't graduated from high school, have felony convictions, and have even reached the age of 42.  They have eased up on physical requirements as well, retaining men who have lost limbs as a result of combat.  I'm sure they will welcome you into the ranks..

So as an American president you would do what then? Have a roundtable with Saddam, Ahmadinejad, Kim Jung Il and whoever wants to massacre us and try to negotiate something?

Me? No thanks. I served my time already

And the army would NOT have been broken had they not keep pursuing missile defenses, new submarines and fighter planes etc and keep trying to fight another WWII. There are so many smart people in Washington, why can't some of them anticipate that IRAQ and Afghan is the new style of warfare

[PerfectWagnerite]

Oh grow up!  John Edwards specializes in medical malpractice and other liability cases in N. Carolina.  You need to find a constitutional lawyer or someone with a specialty in international law and human rights abuses. 

So how do they make it up to the Indians then, short of giving every one of them a large sum of money?

[Bunny]

So how do they make it up to the Indians then, short of giving every one of them a large sum of money?

You can't make it up to them.  No one can make it up to them.  History can't be redone no matter who's rewriting it.  Enhanced social services including affordable medical care and greater educational opportunites are the best start to addressing things like this.  You can only go forward and use the knowledge of past inequities to guide you, and keep you from repeating past abuses in the present and future. 

[BachQ]

I see terrorists popping up all over the place,

That's an interesting statement.

Just how, exactly, does one "measure" the number of terrorists on the planet?

[Don]

That's an interesting statement.

Just how, exactly, does one "measure" the number of terrorists on the planet?

Ask for a show of hands and take the count.

[PerfectWagnerite]

That's an interesting statement.

Just how, exactly, does one "measure" the number of terrorists on the planet?

Take the number of Muslims and multiply by 0.5.

[Don]

I blame them all - Reagan, Clinton, and Carter. Of course I agree with you that Iraq was mishandled. I would have withdrew the troops we have in peaceful countries like Korea and Germany and put as many as I can in Iraq and declare a state of martial-law for at least 5 years with strick curfews and the whole nine yards. But hey they thought they could do things on the cheap.

Here's what I think - we don't have the right to run Iraq for five minutes, never mind 5 years.  This notion of invading and taking over other countries is dumb.  I favor quick bombing strikes at terrorist targets and the elimination of Iraq's nuclear capacity.  Invading Iraq simply took us away from our original purpose.

[Joe_Campbell]

No...I think the real purpose was masked by a more 'user-friendly-get-the-terrorist' model for invasion. Most likely it is oil. Now whether or not that is a valid reason is debatable. If a country has a monopoly on the majority of the world's oil reserves and is just sitting on them, is it economically justifiable to go in and 'take' it? I'm not sure. Could I live without a car? Probably. How about natural gas home heating? Maybe. There are countless petroleum based products out there though. Reality is, however, that we're going to run out eventually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves

Not sure what will happen when we pass the peak production, but I DO know that gas prices will become awesomely high.

[BachQ]

No...I think the real purpose was ... oil. Now whether or not that is a valid reason is debatable. If a country has a monopoly on the majority of the world's oil reserves and is just sitting on them, is it economically justifiable to go in and 'take' it? I'm not sure. Could I live without a car? Probably. How about natural gas home heating? Maybe. There are countless petroleum based products out there though. Reality is, however, that we're going to run out eventually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves

Not sure what will happen when we pass the peak production, but I DO know that gas prices will become awesomely high.

Oil is not a valid reason to overthrow a government, take over a country, and militarily occupy it for years-on-end ........

[sonic1]

Carter is a coward. Here is someone who did nothing, NOTHING in terms of fighting terrorism during his presidency. You HAVE to be a coward and a leftwing liberal to have a shot at getting the Nobel Peace prize don't you. He should just shut his mouth and go pick Georgian cow manure which is what is is fit for anyway. I think he is the worst president in the history of the US.

that is just a dumb statement. He was a really nice guy who felt responsible, unlike the current president who has been WAY more of a nightmere, and shown the least bit of remorse over his bad decisions. Unfortunately it seems americans don't like presidents who admit their faults. They prefer cocky *'s who do all they can to avoid taking responsibility for their HUGE mistakes.

[sonic1]

and yes I called Bush a total  *

[BachQ]

CBS Poll: 76% Say War's Going Badly

May 24, 2007

As Congress passes a $100 Billion Iraq war funding bill, a CBS News/New York Times poll shows the number of Americans who say the war is going badly has reached a new high, rising 10 percent this month to 76 percent.

Nearly half of all Americans (47 percent) say the war is going very badly, while just 20 percent say the recent U.S. troop increase is making a positive difference.

Even a majority of Republicans, 52 percent, now say the war is going at least somewhat badly – a 16-point increase from the middle of April. Nine in 10 Democrats and eight in 10 Independents agree.

[PerfectWagnerite]

that is just a dumb statement. He was a really nice guy who felt responsible, unlike the current president who has been WAY more of a nightmere, and shown the least bit of remorse over his bad decisions. Unfortunately it seems americans don't like presidents who admit their faults. They prefer cocky *'s who do all they can to avoid taking responsibility for their HUGE mistakes.

My dad is a really nice guy, but I wouldn't want him to be president though. You need a mean SOB to fight the terrorists. I am voting for Giuliani next fall. The whole lineup of Democrats sicken me. Obama, gimme a break, change one letter in his name and you get Osama.

[sonic1]

My dad is a really nice guy, but I wouldn't want him to be president though. You need a mean SOB to fight the terrorists. I am voting for Giuliani next fall. The whole lineup of Democrats sicken me. Obama, gimme a break, change one letter in his name and you get Osama.

Terrorism has increased in Iraq exponentially. If that is FIGHTING TERRORISM, I would rather us NOT.