Mieczysław Weinberg (1919-1996)

[jlaurson]

I was just reading through Weinberg's Wikipedia article and I noticed something quite striking written by Alexander Ivashkin in relation to Weinberg sounding a lot like Shostakovich:

Alexander Ivashkin has argued that composers such as Weinberg damaged not only their reputations, but also that of Shostakovich himself: "these works only served to kill off Shostakovich's music, to cover it over with a scab of numerous and bad copies".

[Taken from Wikipedia]

What do you guys make of this? And, how, in your own opinions, is Weinberg different from Shostakovich? What are the characteristics of Weinberg's own style in relation to Shostakovich's?

That's major bollocks, as far as I can hear and see...

Weinberg has a much lighter, wittier side than DSCH -- when Weinberg is funny (or humorous, rather, or childish), he really is THAT. With DSCH, there's always a sardonic undertone.
At the same time, Weinberg can be considerably darker and denser... and did not spend any time trying to fuse personal genius and propagandistic Muzak.

Then of course Weinberg also lived a lot longer... and you can hear that in works like the IDIOT, which sounds at times more like B.A.Zimmermann than DSCH. (If comparisons need be made.)

If he continues to be famousish for a few more decades, people will stop comparing Weinberg to others, anyway, but compare less known composers to Weinberg. He's got that much of a unique voice.

[Mirror Image]

That's major bollocks, as far as I can hear and see...

Weinberg has a much lighter, wittier side than DSCH -- when Weinberg is funny (or humorous, rather, or childish), he really is THAT. With DSCH, there's always a sardonic undertone.
At the same time, Weinberg can be considerably darker and denser... and did not spend any time trying to fuse personal genius and propagandistic Muzak.

Then of course Weinberg also lived a lot longer... and you can hear that in works like the IDIOT, which sounds at times more like B.A.Zimmermann than DSCH. (If comparisons need be made.)

If he continues to be famousish for a few more decades, people will stop comparing Weinberg to others, anyway, but compare less known composers to Weinberg. He's got that much of a unique voice.

Some good points, especially in regards to Weinberg's music being much more denser than Shostakovich's, but you really didn't explain how he has a unique voice. What is a characteristic Weinbergian moment? Any examples you care to point out?

BTW, I'm not trying to argumentative, I'm just trying to get to pick your mind a bit more.

[vandermolen]

I was just reading through Weinberg's Wikipedia article and I noticed something quite striking written by Alexander Ivashkin in relation to Weinberg sounding a lot like Shostakovich:

Alexander Ivashkin has argued that composers such as Weinberg damaged not only their reputations, but also that of Shostakovich himself: "these works only served to kill off Shostakovich's music, to cover it over with a scab of numerous and bad copies".

[Taken from Wikipedia]

What do you guys make of this? And, how, in your own opinions, is Weinberg different from Shostakovich? What are the characteristics of Weinberg's own style in relation to Shostakovich's?

Makes no sense whatsoever to me. It would be like saying that the music of Finzi 'killed off' Vaughan Williams. Weinberg's music has a searching and visionary quality, which is not the same as Shostakovich in my opinion. Maybe his Jewish background is an influence. As far as I'm concerned their music compliments each other.

[Mirror Image]

Makes no sense whatsoever to me. It would be like saying that the music of Finzi 'killed off' Vaughan Williams. Weinberg's music has a searching and visionary quality, which is not the same as Shostakovich in my opinion. Maybe his Jewish background is an influence. As far as I'm concerned their music compliments each other.

Another fair point for sure. Yes, there is a searching quality in much of Weinberg's music.

[kyjo]

Another fair point for sure. Yes, there is a searching quality in Weinberg's music that isn't evident in Shostakovich.

I disagree that there aren't searching qualities evident in Shostakovich's music. I mean, his Symphonies 4, 8, 10, and 15, VC 1, CC 2, Piano Quintet, Piano Trio 2, and SQs 8 and 15 are some of the most profound and yes, "searching", pieces of music ever composed.

[Mirror Image]

I disagree that there aren't searching qualities evident in Shostakovich's music. I mean, his Symphonies 4, 8, 10, and 15, VC 1, CC 2, and SQs 8 and 15 are some of the most profound and yes, "searching", pieces of music ever composed.

Well, I'm trying to help out Weinberg here, Kyle! Shouldn't you be creating another poll?

[Brian]

Jens, what would you consider some of Weinberg's wittiest music? I must confess that between the solo cello sonatas, some of the string quartets, and the Symphony No. 20, I've gotten the impression of a very dour composer. There is the Moldavian Rhapsody and the luminous Cello Concerto (which is like a more cosmopolitan, Jewish Khachaturian than anything resembling Shosty) to balance things out, and some of the calmer music on that excellent CPO wind music disc...

[Mirror Image]

Jens, what would you consider some of Weinberg's wittiest music? I must confess that between the solo cello sonatas, some of the string quartets, and the Symphony No. 20, I've gotten the impression of a very dour composer. There is the Moldavian Rhapsody and the luminous Cello Concerto (which is like a more cosmopolitan, Jewish Khachaturian than anything resembling Shosty) to balance things out, and some of the calmer music on that excellent CPO wind music disc...

Symphony No. 20 is a fantastic work, Brian, you should definitely listen to it again. I don't hear a 'dour' composer at all. I hear a composer bearing his heart and soul.

[Mirror Image]

Here's a freakin' awesome symphony by Weinberg:

http://www.youtube.com/v/2XqV1Gm_rY8

This symphony has been recorded twice now. This is Fedoseyev's first recorded performance (on Olympia or Russian Disc), but the second one, which I own, is on Neos with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra.

[kyjo]

Well, I'm trying to help out Weinberg here, Kyle! Shouldn't you be creating another poll?

You know I approve of anything to give the unsungs a hand!

[kyjo]

Jens, what would you consider some of Weinberg's wittiest music? I must confess that between the solo cello sonatas, some of the string quartets, and the Symphony No. 20, I've gotten the impression of a very dour composer. There is the Moldavian Rhapsody and the luminous Cello Concerto (which is like a more cosmopolitan, Jewish Khachaturian than anything resembling Shosty) to balance things out, and some of the calmer music on that excellent CPO wind music disc...

Try the delightful Rhapsody on Moldavian Themes, one of Weinberg's most light-hearted and tuneful works.

[jlaurson]

Jens, what would you consider some of Weinberg's wittiest music? I must confess that between the solo cello sonatas, some of the string quartets, and the Symphony No. 20, I've gotten the impression of a very dour composer. There is the Moldavian Rhapsody and the luminous Cello Concerto (which is like a more cosmopolitan, Jewish Khachaturian than anything resembling Shosty) to balance things out, and some of the calmer music on that excellent CPO wind music disc...

Those, for example:

..., it's unburdened by the sardonic, forced, ironic quality that usually lingers with Shostakovich... appropriately childlike in Weinberg's Children's Notebooks for piano or happily dancing in the 1948 Sinfonietta.

[Mirror Image]

It is an absurd statement.  First, Shostakovich's music is hardly "dead" - he is one of the most performed and lionized composers of the 20th century.  Next, Weinberg's music, to my ears, is written with more subtlety and he does not rely on what I would call "quasi gimmicks" which is one reason why I have never been sold on Shostakovich as a "great" composer. 

It is a cliche to claim that the influence between Shostakovich and Weinberg was a one way street.

Yes, I agree that Ivashkin's comment was baseless. It's just curious opinion to hold and one that I wanted everyone else to read and comment on.

[Brian]

Thanks, Jens! (And John!)

Try the delightful Rhapsody on Moldavian Themes, one of Weinberg's most light-hearted and tuneful works.

Uh, might want to read my post over again. 

[vandermolen]

I disagree that there aren't searching qualities evident in Shostakovich's music. I mean, his Symphonies 4, 8, 10, and 15, VC 1, CC 2, Piano Quintet, Piano Trio 2, and SQs 8 and 15 are some of the most profound and yes, "searching", pieces of music ever composed.

I agree, but in Weinberg it has a different quality to it I think ( difficult to explain).

[kyjo]

Uh, might want to read my post over again. 

*facepalm*

[kyjo]

I agree, but in Weinberg it has a different quality to it I think ( difficult to explain).

Yes, Weinberg was definitely more than just a Shostakovich clone and his music exhibits some traits that are dissimilar to the other's music.

[amw]

What do you guys make of this? And, how, in your own opinions, is Weinberg different from Shostakovich? What are the characteristics of Weinberg's own style in relation to Shostakovich's?

This is a bit of a nerd post, be advised.

Melodically, Weinberg's musical language varies between very diatonic material (i.e. using just the notes of the major or minor scale) and expressive chromatic, jagged melodic lines reminiscent of Berg or even Webern. Shostakovich's diatonic melodies are often "corrupted" by his trademark diminished fourths, octatonic scale fragments and sudden leaps into foreign keys (something he possibly got from Prokofiev) and even at his most astringent his melodic writing does not approach Weinberg's in angularity (with the possible exception of the Thirteenth Quartet).

Harmonically, they are quite similar, but Shostakovich is significantly more contrapuntal, so many of his "harmonies" are in fact implied in a two- or three-part texture where each voice is of equal importance. Weinberg's music tends to be more homophonic. When counterpoint does figure more prominently in his later music it is probably due to the influence of Shostakovich.

Rhythmically, Weinberg's music displays greater rhythmic flexibility from the earliest pieces, whereas Shostakovich's early work tends to be more locked into 4/4, 3/4, 6/8, etc rhythmic grooves for long periods of time. The increasing plasticity of rhythm in Shostakovich's later work is probably due to the influence of Weinberg. Shostakovich never abandoned mercilessly repetitive rhythms as a vehicle to describe brutality or fear or nervousness, whereas Weinberg rarely used such rhythms in the first place (and almost never for those specific expressive purposes, more as in the finale of the 1948 Sinfonietta in a folk-inspired context).

In terms of models, Weinberg drew frequent inspiration from folk music in addition to the styles of his friends/mentors Shostakovich and Myaskovsky. Shostakovich's music is much more strongly rooted in the Austro-German tradition as represented by Mahler and Berg, as well as the more "cosmopolitan" Russian music of Chaikovsky and Mussorgsky.

In terms of orchestration, colour and timbre they are similar. The early works of Weinberg are probably directly inspired by Shostakovich's in this regard; later on as they became friends a mutual flow of ideas presumably took place.

In terms of affect, this is obviously different for each listener. For me, Weinberg's music is often much more ambiguous in the emotions it attempts to invoke in the listener. The use of various tropes and gimmicks—I don't mean just standardised things like the "Dies Irae" in a solemn passage, but also all the various musical devices commonly used in e.g. film music or opera to convey suspense, drama, sadness, character—used by composers since (more or less) Rossini in order to manipulate the audience's emotions has been compared to techniques of propaganda and rhetoric, and is certainly a feature of a good deal of Soviet music in particular. Often in a Shostakovich piece one will find that a particular passage is "obviously" meant to be menacing, or heroic, or elegiac, etc, etc, and when there is "ambiguity" it is because the music can be read as suggesting two or three different states, but is still clearly suggesting something. Weinberg is more content, I think, to not try to convey any particular emotion or character, but rather let the audience try to come to terms with the music on their own, which made his music much less suitable as propaganda and accounts in some part for his neglect by the Soviet apparatus.

[Mirror Image]

Great and informative post, amw. Thanks a lot!

[Karl Henning]

Most interesting post, thank you.

[...] In terms of affect, this is obviously different for each listener. For me, Weinberg's music is often much more ambiguous in the emotions it attempts to invoke in the listener.

To be sure, I am still getting to know more of Weinberg . . . I have not perceived any discernible, how to say, superiority in ambiguity, on either part.

Tangentially . . . While I do not anticipate his becoming "more to me" than Shostakovich, I can see that I am probably going to want to visit all of the string quartets . . . .