Bach on the piano

[Mandryka]

What appeals to me (in Rübsam´s Bach piano interpretations) is his creative thinking combined with a subtle kind of poetry, and he never becomes overtly romantic (like Sokolov or Koroliov) or distressing motorical-mechanical (like Gould or Pogorelic). Rübsam´s point of departure concerning his piano technic seems to be the clavichord rather than the piano.

In the keyboard partitas I hear plenty of colour, plenty of dynamic variation. I hear slow tempos.

What is the link to the clavichord supposed to signify? Licence to cut the nobility and grandeur that comes so naturally on a harpsichord performance, substituting intimacy? Licence to use colour and dynamics? It makes a nonsense of the Romantic/Authentic baroque  distinction constructed along the lines of the physical properties of the performance, except for matters of articulation.

But if we turn to the non-physical properties, I hear (in the Allemande of Partita 4 for example) a very personal, very emotional statement from Rübsam  -- a performance which seems based on Rübsam's feelings as much as anything else. From an affective point of view, Rübsam's as romantic as  Fiorentino.

Or have I missed something?

[prémont]

What is the link to the clavichord supposed to signify? Licence to cut the nobility and grandeur that comes so naturally on a harpsichord performance, substituting intimacy? Licence to use colour and dynamics? It makes a nonsense of the Romantic/Authentic baroque  distinction constructed along the lines of the physical properties of the performance, except for matters of articulation.

Yes, this is in essence what I meant, but only limited licence. And in contrast to most other pianists, who play Bach, Rübsam does not blow up the expressive potential of the music by using too much and too great dynamic variation and generally too high volume levels. I have not heard him live, but this has been reported more times by his listeners. Compare f.i. to Tureck (whom I have heard live) and who played with generally high dynamic levels far from any association to the clavichord - I think she tried to imitate the grandeur of the harpsichord.

BTW what I find most interesting in Rübsams interpretations is not his dynamics but his rather original agogics. On the other hand I agree with those who think that he sometimes goes too far, -  IMO mainly in some of his organ recordings for Naxos.

But if we turn to the non-physical properties, I hear (in the Allemande of Partita 4 for example) a very personal, very emotional statement from Rübsam  -- a performance which seems based on Rübsam's feelings as much as anything else. From an affective point of view, Rübsam's as romantic as  Fiorentino.

Or have I missed something?

No, you have not missed anything at all. The borders between the evoking of general affects and the expression of individual feelings are sometimes narrow and difficult to define. The points of departure may be different but the results seem identical.  However I do not mind borderline cases. What annoys me is the overly romantic ways of playing Bach. And I do not think Rübsam in his piano recordings crosses the borders of good taste that often. I can not compare with Fiorentino, as I never have heard a Bach recording from his hands.

[Opus106]

Could you (anyone!) recommend me your favourite version(s) of Bach's chorale preludes played on/transcribed for a piano? I have little idea of what kind of an interpretation I'm looking for, so throw everything you like at me. The pieces themselves (it's not as easy as searching for a piano version of The Italian Concerto, is it?) or recordings.

[George]

Could you (anyone!) recommend me your favourite version(s) of Bach's chorale preludes played on/transcribed for a piano? I have little idea of what kind of an interpretation I'm looking for, so throw everything you like at me. The pieces themselves (it's not as easy as searching for a piano version of The Italian Concerto, is it?) or recordings.

Did Kempff or Feinberg record any of them? They'd be my pick.

[Mandryka]

Could you (anyone!) recommend me your favourite version(s) of Bach's chorale preludes played on/transcribed for a piano? I have little idea of what kind of an interpretation I'm looking for, so throw everything you like at me. The pieces themselves (it's not as easy as searching for a piano version of The Italian Concerto, is it?) or recordings.

This is a favourite CD



There's also this, bu t I've never enjoyed it as much as the Hewitt -- but I may have missed something.



Or there's an unpublished recital with Ranki which is extraordinary  from a couple of years ago with quite a bit of Bach/Kurtag transcriptions of Chorales -- let me know if you want it.

Surely Busoni made transcriptions? I've never heard them if he did. The standard collection seems to be Játékok. I used to think I just didn't like Kurtag's style but the Ranki performance showed me that the problem is to do with interpretation.

Feinberg did indeed record his own transcriptions of choral preludes and I'd say it's one of his most interesting CDs, partly beciause of the two recordings of the BWV 662, one made just before he died. If you are a fan of his other Bach CDs George, you may like it more than me.



Has anyone heard the Bach/Feinberg CDs which are part of Hyperion's transcriptions series -- I'm quite curious about the,.

[Opus106]

Did Kempff or Feinberg record any of them? They'd be my pick.

Thanks, George. It looks like both of them transcribed some and recorded them too. Also, there's a disc from the Hyperion series with F's transcriptions played by Martin Roscoe, for modern sound. That's a nice start.

(But do keep the recs coming. )

[Opus106]

Or there's an unpublished recital with Ranki which is even better from a couple of years ago with quite a bit of Bach/Kurtag transcriptions -- let me know if you want it.

I surely would love to hear that. Thanks for the offer!

Surey Busoni made transcriptions? I've never heard them if he did.

Yes, there are a lot, apparently. Just by searching for those Kempff and Feinberg listings, I came up with a tonne of other transcriptions, and not just those by Busoni!

This sudden interest is thanks largely to Schiff's lectures on Beethoven's sonatas. Every time he says, this or that phrase was borrowed or inspired by a chorale and plays it a little, I get the urge to listen to more of that.

[George]

Feinberg did indeed record his own transcriptions of choral preludes and I'd say it's one of his most interesting CDs, partly beciause of the two recordings of the BWV 662, one made just before he died. If you are a fan of his other Bach CDs George, you may like it more than me.

Oooh, haven't heard that one, perhaps someone will make it available for me?  0:)

Has anyone heard the Bach/Feinberg CDs which are part of Hyperion's transcriptions series -- I'm quite curious about the,.

Sorry, no, I only have his WTC.

[jlaurson]

Could you (anyone!) recommend me your favourite version(s) of Bach's chorale preludes played on/transcribed for a piano? I have little idea of what kind of an interpretation I'm looking for, so throw everything you like at me. The pieces themselves (it's not as easy as searching for a piano version of The Italian Concerto, is it?) or recordings.

Koroliov recommendation seconded. Here's a review and an excerpt:
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/12/best-recordings-of-2011-1-10.html
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/12/best-recordings-of-2011-2.html

[Leon]

+3 for Koroliov.  His Bach recordings are very fine in general, IMO.

[Mandryka]

Yes, this is in essence what I meant, but only limited licence. And in contrast to most other pianists, who play Bach, Rübsam does not blow up the expressive potential of the music by using too much and too great dynamic variation and generally too high volume levels. I have not heard him live, but this has been reported more times by his listeners. Compare f.i. to Tureck (whom I have heard live) and who played with generally high dynamic levels far from any association to the clavichord - I think she tried to imitate the grandeur of the harpsichord.

BTW what I find most interesting in Rübsams interpretations is not his dynamics but his rather original agogics. On the other hand I agree with those who think that he sometimes goes too far, -  IMO mainly in some of his organ recordings for Naxos.

No, you have not missed anything at all. The borders between the evoking of general affects and the expression of individual feelings are sometimes narrow and difficult to define. The points of departure may be different but the results seem identical.  However I do not mind borderline cases. What annoys me is the overly romantic ways of playing Bach. And I do not think Rübsam in his piano recordings crosses the borders of good taste that often. I can not compare with Fiorentino, as I never have heard a Bach recording from his hands.

I wonder how mannered Rübsam's rubato is. That's to say, what do we know about authentic agogics?

Here's Fiorentino's Allemande from Partita 4 (I've never really loved it, though I think it is extraordinary.) By the way the more I listen to Rübsam's Partitas the more I appreciate the poetry: in partita 4 the Menuet especially, and the end of the Sarabande, seem wonderful interpretations to me.  And  the Aria too.

http://www.youtube.com/v/x9KQdjaCpvM

The point about Tureck is interesting. The recordings I appreciate the most are the ones on her Great Pianists recordings, which aren't available elsewhere as far as I know. One thing I like about them is precisely that she doesn't use high dynamic levels there (I believe quite deliberately, and the recording engineers worked very hard to capture her rather restrained sound.)

Re Rübsam, I'm playing his Naxos AoF a lot now, and some of the first Buxtehude recordings. The AoF is interesting -- there are some really haunting things in it (like Cpt XIII.) The registrations are sometimes so bold (who else is really imaginative at registrations?)

The Naxos AoF is like a spiritual journey -- I haven't worked out that idea fully but that's the way I'm thinking about what he's up to there

[Opus106]

Koroliov recommendation seconded. Here's a review and an excerpt:
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/12/best-recordings-of-2011-1-10.html
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/12/best-recordings-of-2011-2.html

+3 for Koroliov.  His Bach recordings are very fine in general, IMO.

Thanks very much, gents. I've heard him only in the WTC so far. He often gets playtime on my iPod and serves as a contrast to Hewitt I.

[prémont]

I wonder how mannered Rübsam's rubato is. That's to say, what do we know about authentic agogics?

We know next to nothing. Rubato is very difficult to describe in words, and even the most authoritative sources (e.g. Frescobaldis preface to his Toccatas book one) does neither explain the essence of rubato, nor tells how to realise it. So it is up to the individual player´s (and listener´s) taste, whether a given rubato works musically. I recall a reviewer (from Grammophone IIRC) who wrote about one of Rübsam´s  Naxos Bach organ recordings, something like that he takes us right to the creation of the music, as if he (Rübsam) was composing the music when playing it. IMO this is a fruitful approach to Rübsams interpretations, but sometimes he is so heavy and leaden, that the music dies, e.g. the Passacaglia.

Here's Fiorentino's Allemande from Partita 4 (I've never really loved it, though I think it is extraordinary.) By the way the more I listen to Rübsam's Partitas the more I appreciate the poetry: in partita 4 the Menuet especially, and the end of the Sarabande, seem wonderful interpretations to me.  And  the Aria too.
http://www.youtube.com/v/x9KQdjaCpvM

Thanks for the clip. I find Fiorentino very "romantic" in his ultra-shading of almost every note. I do not recall Rübsam being obsessed by micro-details in that way, - have to relisten to him.

The point about Tureck is interesting. The recordings I appreciate the most are the ones on her Great Pianists recordings, which aren't available elsewhere as far as I know. One thing I like about them is precisely that she doesn't use high dynamic levels there (I believe quite deliberately, and the recording engineers worked very hard to capture her rather restrained sound.)

I do not know if she changed her style. The recital I refer to took place about 1968.

[Leo K.]

Thanks very much, gents. I've heard him only in the WTC so far. He often gets playtime on my iPod and serves as a contrast to Hewitt I.

+4 for Koroliov. The last few weeks I have been listening to his French Suites and Art of the Fugue, and I'm very taken by his technique and subtle colors.

[Opus106]

+4 for Koroliov. The last few weeks I have been listening to his French Suites and Art of the Fugue, and I'm very taken by his technique and subtle colors.

All right, Koroliov gets a super-bump up the wish-list. Thanks, Leo.

[Mandryka]

I forgot Demidenko's second CD of Bach Busoni for Hyperion, which contains quite a few preludes. I love both of Demidenko's CDs on Hyperion:I rate them as highly as Hewitt's transcriptions CDs, if not more so.

I listened today to Demidenko playing Bach/Busoni BWV665 -- a choral prelude from the Leipzig Chorales. When you hear a good organ performance it's a harrowing piece of music, an emotionally explicit evocation of ideas in the chorale like "wrath of God" or "bitter grief and death".

All that's gone in the Demidenko recording.

I doubt that anyone could do better than Demidenko playing Bach/Busoni on a piano.

If you listen to both you can see straightway why someone may say that whatever Demidenko's doing, he's not playing Bach's music.

By the way I listened again to Koroliov's and I thought it was cold hearted. The Hewitt recording  (which I also dipped into again)  is  warm though: very moving and, maybe unsurprisingly, a bit saccharine. Hewitt's is  to let wash over you after a hard day's work: you just keep thinking "oooh, lovely"

[George]

[off topic]

Re: Demidenko -

Heard his Hyperion Wigmore live 2CD set, Mandryka? It's superb!

[/off topic]

[Mandryka]

[off topic]

Re: Demidenko -

Heard his Hyperion Wigmore live 2CD set, Mandryka? It's superb!

[/off topic]

I went to those concerts. There are some really nice things on the cds -- the Vorísek and the Schumann and Haydn is especially memorable. If you ever get a chance to hear him play Schumann, grab it. He used to play a lot of Schumann in the Wigmore Hall in the 1990s and it was very contentious. Equally, I've heard him play a lot Haydn over the years, and I've always liked his style.

The Bach/Busoni CDs are very special for me partly, because they don't sound at all baroque -- they sound like Busoni more than Bach. In the Chaconne, for example, I enjoy his performance more than nearly every one I've heard by Weissenberg or Michelangeli (the exception is the very late one from ABM, which is incredible.)

[George]

I went to those concerts.

I'm jealous. Heard his Medtner concertos? 

[Mandryka]

If you're still interested in organ preludes, I forgot the two of the best. First Paul Jacobs  recorded about 10 Busoni transcriptions, very well. The whole Cd is wonderful in fact, especially for the Brahms organ transcriptions. He said that these Busoni transcription of Brahms chorales were the hardest thing he's ever played.

The Cd also has the best recording of Messaien's Etudes I have heard.

The second is. Gianluca  Cascioli, who recorded just a few, for DG. His sound is very distinctive - you can tell a Cascioli performance straight away.  He's a fine musician,  with ideas of his own, who I would like to explore some more.

Maria Grinberg didn't record any organ transcriptions, but her Bach, Bach/liszt and Bach/Busoni has been giving me a lot of fun recently. Well worth catching.