Bach on the piano

[staxomega]

I've been really enjoying this Bach Busoni prelude played slowly, metaphysically, by DemiD today.

https://www.youtube.com/v/xVStfDG1-r4

Edwin Fischer played it also, very differently. There's no rights or wrongs with Bach Busoni I guess.

https://youtube.com/v/wrp2P9cM8pM

Edwin Fischer is a favorite here. The Demidenko Bach/Busoni CD flew under my radar, looking forward to hearing the full thing.

[milk]

Joanna MacGregor's French Suites: Boy do these sparkle and stimulate! She's so subtle with dynamics and even with touch you'd almost think she was imitating a harpsichord on the piano. There's a magic in how even and balanced she keeps things without being boring in the least.

[Mandryka]

Joanna MacGregor's French Suites: Boy do these sparkle and stimulate! She's so subtle with dynamics and even with touch you'd almost think she was imitating a harpsichord on the piano. There's a magic in how even and balanced she keeps things without being boring in the least.

Yes. I don't know whether you'll think her other Bach recordings are as interesting.

[prémont]

Joanna MacGregor's French Suites: Boy do these sparkle and stimulate! She's so subtle with dynamics and even with touch you'd almost think she was imitating a harpsichord on the piano. There's a magic in how even and balanced she keeps things without being boring in the least.

Each to his own ears. I found her style in the French suites irritating.

Her AoF is on the other hand unsensational but more eatable.

[milk]

Each to his own ears. I found her style in the French suites irritating.

Her AoF is on the other hand unsensational but more eatable.

Which do you prefer for the French Suites?

[Marc]

Which do you prefer for the French Suites?

May I suggest Ivo Janssen?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ3F9iKK6PI

https://www.youtube.com/v/KQ3F9iKK6PI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc3LEv-cDsA

https://www.youtube.com/v/Zc3LEv-cDsA

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Complete-Keyboard/dp/B0053HBKZO/?tag=goodmusicguideco

[Mandryka]

Which do you prefer for the French Suites?

I think you have to ask this question. Do you want someone who will manage the transfer to a piano in a way which is conservative?  I mean they will not use effects which just weren't possible or weren't probable on harpsichord or clavichord. For example, they will tend to use rhythmic rubato and ornamentation rather than volume changes to emphasise a note or a phrase.  Or do you want someone who is modernist, a musician who creates an imaginative encounter between the modern instrument and the ancient score.

[milk]

May I suggest Ivo Janssen?

I quite like him but I haven't heard his French Suites. I might do it tonight. I like the way his piano sounds. Or maybe it's his touch.

I think you have to ask this question. Do you want someone who will manage the transfer to a piano in a way which is conservative?  I mean they will not use effects which just weren't possible or weren't probable on harpsichord or clavichord. For example, they will tend to use rhythmic rubato and ornamentation rather than volume changes to emphasise a note or a phrase.  Or do you want someone who is modernist, a musician who creates an imaginative encounter between the modern instrument and the ancient score.

I think I can appreciate both but I also have to reappraise things because my tastes change. Would you say Janssen is conservative and someone like David Fray or Andrea Bacchetti is modernist? Where does Schiff fall? In-between but more conservative (Schiff seems almost meticulous to a fault to me)? And maybe Demus is in-between as well but on the conservative side? It'd be fun to see a list - just a quick one with a few names. Is Feinberg the king of modernists (for his time)?   

I wonder if there are some successful pianists who play Bach but never consider this question and just play it the way they were taught to play the piano. When Yuja Wang plays Bach, does she really care a wit about baroque performance practice?
BTW What do you think of Robert Levin's partitas? It's obviously very conservative stuff. I only listened once and I've been meaning to hear it again. 

[j winter]

I think you have to ask this question. Do you want someone who will manage the transfer to a piano in a way which is conservative?  I mean they will not use effects which just weren't possible or weren't probable on harpsichord or clavichord. For example, they will tend to use rhythmic rubato and ornamentation rather than volume changes to emphasise a note or a phrase.  Or do you want someone who is modernist, a musician who creates an imaginative encounter between the modern instrument and the ancient score.

That's an interesting distinction, though I don't know how universally it applies.  For myself, if I'm listening to baroque works on the piano I think I almost always lean towards modernism as you define it -- I want someone who's going to fully engage with the possibilities of the instrument they are playing -- I want their interpretive choices, including whether or not to hold back on volume changes etc., to be based on their personal aesthetic relationship with the work and how they want to express themselves through it, not on whether or not something was technically feasible in 1720.  The historical questions are fascinating too -- I'm a bit of history nerd -- but if I'm looking to concentrate on that, I would listen to a period instrument recording.  To me, I would hope that the performer would either go all in for the piano, or not -- I would think that doing it halfway, or with some sort of artificial guardrails in place, would be counterproductive.

That said, I love quite a few piano recordings that would seem to fall under both categories, so what the hey...

[milk]

That's an interesting distinction, though I don't know how universally it applies.  For myself, if I'm listening to baroque works on the piano I think I almost always lean towards modernism as you define it -- I want someone who's going to fully engage with the possibilities of the instrument they are playing -- I want their interpretive choices, including whether or not to hold back on volume changes etc., to be based on their personal aesthetic relationship with the work and how they want to express themselves through it, not on whether or not something was technically feasible in 1720.  The historical questions are fascinating too -- I'm a bit of history nerd -- but if I'm looking to concentrate on that, I would listen to a period instrument recording.  To me, I would hope that the performer would either go all in for the piano, or not -- I would think that doing it halfway, or with some sort of artificial guardrails in place, would be counterproductive.

That said, I love quite a few piano recordings that would seem to fall under both categories, so what the hey...

Sometimes limits can produce interesting results. And maybe even something radical. Like, if you never use dynamics and force yourself to use other means on the piano...I like the piano but I don't soft-loud (ironic?). I think if they'r playing the piano they've already acknowledged they're past what was feasible in 1720?

[j winter]

Sometimes limits can produce interesting results. And maybe even something radical. Like, if you never use dynamics and force yourself to use other means on the piano...I like the piano but I don't soft-loud (ironic?). I think if they'r playing the piano they've already acknowledged they're past what was feasible in 1720?

Very good points, I agree -- I have to admit I don't normally think about it in the terms Mandryka was using, food for thought...

[milk]

I'm listening to the French Suites lately. For some reason Shepkin put me off last time I tried his WTC but tonight I'm finding his ornamentations very charming. It seems very French and very baroque.
Has anyone listened to Papastefanou?

[prémont]

Which do you prefer for the French Suites?

Generally I am not that keen on Baroque keyboard music played on piano. We have discussed this very often, and I shall not repeat it here. If we use Mandryka's definition, I think that the more modernistic playing, the more anachronistic and therefore to me less appealing. (If pianists want to use the full effect of the piano, there are lots of other music better suited for this kind of playing.) This is why I prefer what Mandryka names conservative playing. Ivo Janssen offers relatively conservative playing.  And Wolfgang Rübsam has a restrained playing style. His expressivity does not depend on exaggerated dynamic contrasts but rather on articulation and rubato.

[Mandryka]

I wonder if there are some successful pianists who play Bach

What does that mean? Success only makes sense relative to a goal.

[milk]

What does that mean? Success only makes sense relative to a goal.

I guess I mean performers who get praised by critics, draw a big audience and sell recordings but who's music is not the result of deep study or understanding. Is that possible?

[Mandryka]

I guess I mean performers who get praised by critics, draw a big audience and sell recordings but who's music is not the result of deep study or understanding. Is that possible?

My feeling is no. The critics and the record producers wouldn't have the vision to support such an artist, and audiences typically follow their lead.


By the way a pianist who's a bit like McGregor in Bach is Daniel Ben Pinaar, in WTC .

[Marc]

Well, thanks to this thread, I'm listening to Glenn Gould right now, playing the Partita in D, BWV 828. From the Gould Bach output that I know, I really like 'his' Partitas best. Can't explain why, but it's just great.

[staxomega]

It's sort of difficult to play with a constant narrow dynamic range on piano in pieces that are played fast. One wants to naturally emphasize things unless you're really disciplined.

Daniel Ben-Pienaar is pretty impressive in some pieces like Book 2's E minor p&f. So far I'm greatly preferring him in 17th century music than that Beethoven cycle.

[staxomega]

I guess I mean performers who get praised by critics, draw a big audience and sell recordings but who's music is not the result of deep study or understanding. Is that possible?

That might be difficult to determine. If they play it in a modern style, or as Mandryka says Bach for babies we may conclude they haven't done a deep study or have deep understanding of the music but that might just be their interpretive choice to play it like that. Murray Perahia says when he had his hand injury he studied Bach very thoroughly, but if one didn't read that would we have drawn that conclusion on our own?

Maria Tipo was also mentioned as someone that fits that description as well but I really like her interpretations. For me I can enjoy various styles on piano as long as they communicate something. What that something is, is more difficult to articulate.

[San Antone]

I guess I mean performers who get praised by critics, draw a big audience and sell recordings but who's music is not the result of deep study or understanding. Is that possible?

Like who?  Are you looking for a Liberace of classical music?  I don't see the point.

For me, the piano as played by Schiff is the perfect balance between exploiting the piano's dynamism but not spoiling the counterpoint with sustain pedaling.

Milk, I think I seen you post that you do not like to hear dynamics in Bach.  Do you have trouble with dynamics in general, i.e. some kind of hearing problem - or is this an aesthetic conclusion on your part: that Bach's keyboard works should not be played with dynamics?