Bach on the piano

Started by mn dave, November 13, 2008, 06:12:24 AM

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Mandryka

#560
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 10, 2018, 11:22:13 AM
As I wrote above, I lean toward metronomic in Bach. The reason is that the line is more easily lost in Bach without it.

Rubato is unhelpful because, in my view, it distorts the music (particularly in Bach). Where in Beethoven it lends meaning and emphasis, it removes that somewhat in Bach.

I don't understand why you have a double standard here -- why rubato in Bach isn't meaningful and rubato in Beethoven is. "The line", need not be lost -- I could give you tons of examples of Bach with rubato and linearity. Here, cpt 1



https://www.youtube.com/v/3dx63njjrs0[/flash]


Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

mc ukrneal

Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2018, 11:31:04 AM
I don't understand why you have a double standard here -- why rubato in Bach isn't meaningful and rubato in Beethoven is. "The line", need not be lost -- I could give you tons of examples of Bach with rubato and linearity. Here, cpt 1



https://www.youtube.com/v/3dx63njjrs0[/flash]


Don't like this particularly - those pauses sound somewhat unnatural and exaggerated (mind you, this isn't the worst I've heard). Beethoven's music doesn't snap the way I feel Bach sometimes does with Rubato. This version you linked seems to me to stutter it's way through. I am not actually advacating no rubato, it's a question of degree (though no rubato doesn't necessarily bother me).  Not really being an aficionado of Gould, here is an example I prefer in the partitas. Compared to other versions I've heard, this one has less rubato (and in some places much less):

https://www.youtube.com/v/wWoJjlxtVd8


Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Mandryka

#562
Before you were talking about romanticism, meaningfulness and linearity, now you're talking about what you like!

I need to compare more carefully Schepkin's rubato in the sarabande of partita 1 and Leonhardt's in cpt 1, prima facie I'm not sure what you're hearing that makes such a difference to you.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

mc ukrneal

Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2018, 12:26:13 PM
Before you were talking about romanticism, meaningfulness and linearity, now you're talking about what you like!

I need to compare more carefully Schepkin's rubato in the sarabande of partita 1 and Leonhardt's in cpt 1, prima facie I'm not sure what you're hearing that makes such a difference to you.
Well, we are talking about a mix of things. Poster dislike of Gould, his metronomic approach, rubato, etc. On rubato, I am saying that less rubato suits (and helps) the keyboard music of Bach. I've always felt it served the music better. I've explained why.

But it's all relative too. Compared to most versions on the piano that I have heard (and I have not done an exhaustive search), he (Schepkin) uses less.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

I'm don't know how Bach should be performed, but I know what works for me. Gould generally does not. I agree a strong rhythmic pulse is vital, but I find that rigidity of beat is not necessary, or always desirable, in establishing a strong pulse.

Clarity of counterpoint is supreme for me. I think a pianist should use every trick in the book (articulation, dynamics, pedaling, rubato, tempo variation) to illuminate counterpoint.

milk

#565
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 10, 2018, 11:17:44 AM
I disagree. Bach's keyboard works definitely benefit from a tilt toward the metronomic side (of course, my opinion) - perhaps better to say a stricter adherence to it. My tolerance for rubato in Bach (and music like it) is much lower than in other styles. Of course, there are degrees and I suspect that we are disagreeing about that. I would not (necessarily) equate sentimentality with rubato.
I wonder what you make of Rubsam's new recordings. I'll give Gould one thing: one always knows it's him. It's hard to mistake him for someone else. I'm not a pianist or musically trained so sometimes it's hard for me to tell well aspects of articulation that make a performance. I've decided this morning to try to understand which performances employ rubato in a pleasing way. I'm not sure but Piotr Anderszewski's Sarabande in the first Partita makes him seem a candidate.
I notice there's a performance on Youtube but I haven't watched it, just listened to his recording. Here's a live performance though:
https://www.youtube.com/v/Kvhurpp-wDc
Has anyone heard of the pianist Sontraud Speidel? Now that I'm on a streaming service I'm able to get further off the beaten path. She uses rubato and she also brings out counterpoint nicely. I'm not sure what I think of her recording as a whole though. 
https://www.youtube.com/v/nUbDAas9Qaw
Another new pianist for me is Risto Lauriala. So far, I quite like his partitas. He really plays around with articulation. I may give his transcriptions a try though I usually can't get far on that sort of thing.

milk

I don't hear Edward Aldwell's name mentioned much around here. He seems to be known as a Bach interpreter on the piano. Any thoughts anyone?

mc ukrneal

#567
Quote from: milk on November 10, 2018, 03:20:09 PM
I wonder what you make of Rubsam's new recordings. I'll give Gould one thing: one always know it's him. It's hard to mistake him for someone else. I'm not a pianist or musically trained so sometimes it's hard for me to tell well aspects of articulation make a performance. I've decided this morning to try to understand which performances employ rubato in a pleasing way. I'm not sure but Piotr Anderszewski's Sarabande in the first Partita makes him seem a candidate.
I notice there's a performance on Youtube but I haven't watched it, just listened to his recording. Here's a live performance though:
https://www.youtube.com/v/Kvhurpp-wDc
Has anyone heard of the pianist Sontraud Speidel? Now that I'm on a streaming service I'm able to get further off the beaten path. She uses rubato and she also brings out counterpoint nicely. I'm not sure what I think of her recording as a whole though. 
https://www.youtube.com/v/nUbDAas9Qaw
Another new pianist for me is Risto Lauriala. So far, I quite like his partitas. He really plays around with articulation. I may give his transcriptions a try though I usually can't get far on that sort of thing.

The Anderszewski recording is quite pleasing (though I didn't have time to listen to the end), and there is very little rubato for the most part. It is very well articulated as well, giving nice differentiation between ideas. Of course, the Saraande section employs it much more.  I like how he changes how he hits the keys to emphasize the legato and staccato in certain sections.

Here's an example of what I think doesn't work well (and you can hear it right off the bat in the first one):
https://www.youtube.com/v/8dF7TMecJWo
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

milk

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 10, 2018, 10:30:26 PM
The Anderszewski recording is quite pleasing (though I didn't have time to listen to the end), and there is very little rubato for the most part. It is very well articulated as well, giving nice differentiation between ideas. Of course, the Saraande section employs it much more.  I like how he changes how he hits the keys to emphasize the legato and staccato in certain sections.

Here's an example of what I think doesn't work well (and you can hear it right off the bat in the first one):
https://www.youtube.com/v/8dF7TMecJWo
Thanks for posting that. I'm listening to Schiff through all of the first partita. I'm surprised by this performance. I had avoided Schiff for a long time. It seemed to me that he didn't get much love around here. I can see why you might not like it. I guess there's room for all on the Bach boat. I do like the Schiff and I can realize it does have much more shifting of tempos. I might have to give Schiff's WTC a try. 

milk

Sergio Fiorentino's Partita #4 Allemande is 15 minutes and 15 seconds long! Suzuki's is only 12 minutes!

San Antone

Quote from: milk on November 10, 2018, 11:29:29 PM
Thanks for posting that. I'm listening to Schiff through all of the first partita. I'm surprised by this performance. I had avoided Schiff for a long time. It seemed to me that he didn't get much love around here. I can see why you might not like it. I guess there's room for all on the Bach boat. I do like the Schiff and I can realize it does have much more shifting of tempos. I might have to give Schiff's WTC a try.

Which Schiff?  He recorded all of Bach's keyboard music for Decca (I think) and he has been doing it again for ECM New Series.  The latter recordings are well-thought-of, I think.  Not sure how his earlier set is received. 

I like Bach played on anything by just about anybody.  His music is hard to screw up.

Mandryka

Quote from: milk on November 10, 2018, 11:57:00 PM
Sergio Fiorentino's Partita #4 Allemande is 15 minutes and 15 seconds long! Suzuki's is only 12 minutes!

How long does Rubsam take?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

mc ukrneal

Quote from: San Antone on November 11, 2018, 12:07:14 AM
Which Schiff?  He recorded all of Bach's keyboard music for Decca (I think) and he has been doing it again for ECM New Series.  The latter recordings are well-thought-of, I think.  Not sure how his earlier set is received. 

I like Bach played on anything by just about anybody.  His music is hard to screw up.
He's referring to the Schiff I linked to, which appears to be the Decca recording from 1983 (if comments are correct).
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 11, 2018, 12:50:13 AM
He's referring to the Schiff I linked to, which appears to be the Decca recording from 1983 (if comments are correct).

Which would surprise me in the Partitas -- where his second recording is so much more dance-inflected than the rather dour reading for Decca. (See also: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/)

milk

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 11, 2018, 01:30:08 PM
Which would surprise me in the Partitas -- where his second recording is so much more dance-inflected than the rather dour reading for Decca. (See also: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/)
I was streaming something at home but I have to check which recordings I listened to for Schiff. I believe it is the same as the one linked. I think Schiff has a live recording Of the Partitas also. Rubsam's recording of the Allemande clocks at 11:46. BTW: it was my impression that the new lautenwerk recordings are markedly different in concept from his piano recordings but I'm not sure. I have to go back to his partitas but in the past I didn't like that particular recording much. Should I give them another listen? I did contact Rubsam to ask if he planned to re-record these on the lautenwerk. He was nice enough to respond, although he didn't thank me for the question and was not discernibly friendly (but whatever, never mind I've shelled out $ for at least a dozen of his recordings), and he said he has no plans to do them again. I'd love to hear how the partitas would sound on the lautenwerk but I'd also love to hear his sort of radical broken style for the partitas or French on any instrument.

XB-70 Valkyrie

#575
To purloin/corrupt/commandeer a phrase:

For pleasure, listen to ten minutes of Glenn Gould--for punishment, twenty.

I am also curious aboot Nelson Freire. I heard a brief snippet of the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue, and enjoyed it very much. I am interested to sample more.
If you really dislike Bach you keep quiet about it! - Andras Schiff

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 11, 2018, 01:30:08 PM
Which would surprise me in the Partitas -- where his second recording is so much more dance-inflected than the rather dour reading for Decca. (See also: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/)

Dour?!?! I think the word you are looking for is "magnificent."

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 12, 2018, 12:54:09 PM
Dour?!?! I think the word you are looking for is "magnificent."

I always mix those words up!  :P

milk


I'm listening to this Schiff's WTC for the first time. I can't believe I'd totally ignored him before (and confused him with Periah too - another pianist I've somehow ignored). Is this his only recording of WTCI? This is magnificent. I mean, Schiff makes the music new again for me. He has an ingenious way of finding new melodic highlights, new shades of meaning and emotion. I don't know why I had totally ignored Schiff previously. I'm curious to go back and see how Schiff figured in those comparison reviews by Don Satz. 

Mandryka

#579
Quote from: milk on November 13, 2018, 09:45:09 PM

He has an ingenious way of finding new melodic highlights, new shades of meaning and emotion.

This seems right, Don liked it and didn't like his first recording, I'm not so sure I agree, but possibly the first recording doesn't stress catchy melodies so much for you to hum along too, and the phrasing is less incisive  and the piano is less colourful. I'm thinking really about the second book rather than the first.  Every time I listen to his first recording my intuition -- which may be worthless -- tells me that there's something interesting going on there,  I'd have to put more work in to articulate it. It's something to do with lyricism maybe, and a more homogeneous approach to the voicing. Sometime I'll give both recordings the attention they may or may not repay.

Part of it may be a special sort of British puritan masochism -- the second recording is so fun and easy and accessible that I just don't trust it.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen