Bach on the piano

Started by mn dave, November 13, 2008, 06:12:24 AM

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San Antone

Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2019, 04:53:58 AM
The above mentioned essay seems to have been written by a journalist, but Levitt apparently asked for this quote from Schumann to be included 

That's to say, Levitt wants to interpret the partitas in a way which reveals connections to c19 music for keyboard, Davidsbundlertanze and the Diabelli Variations are singled out for special mention.

What is this romantic connection? The essay is explicit, it is that the music is revealed to be full of

Is Levitt successful? Does he hint at darkness? Does he make the musical gestures striking?  Not that I noticed but maybe I haven't listened carefully.

First, Igor Levit spells his name with one "L".   >:D

Next, I wouldn't assume that the inclusion of that quote from Schumann indicates that Levit is performing Bach as if he were playing Chopin, or as if the music was from the 19th century.  That said, he utilizes the dynamics of a piano, but I wouldn't say that his performance is overly influenced by a Romantic approach.

Those quotes you posted are an example of why I don't read CD booklet essays as a rule.  I find that the ideas they present can get in the way of enjoying the recording.

Mandryka

#681


Listening to the French suite here, 814, who could resist when the marketing blurb says

QuoteThe French pianist offers a dynamic vision of the Cantor's work. Demonstrating a deep understanding of its polyphony, his magnificent and colourful playing unleashes the most thrilling dancing energy.

As the PR copy says, the courante is indeed remarkable for its "thrilling dancing energy" but what  I'm enjoying most is the delicacy and refinement of the embellishments in the sarabande.

Worth a quick listen once I would have thought.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2019, 05:07:37 AM

Listening to the French suite here, 814, who could resist when the marketing blurb says

Quote
The French pianist offers a dynamic vision of the Cantor's work. Demonstrating a deep understanding of its polyphony, his magnificent and colorful playing unleashes the most thrilling dancing energy.

As the PR copy says, the courante is indeed remarkable for its "thrilling dancing energy" but what  I'm enjoying most is the delicacy and refinement of the embellishments in the sarabande.

Worth a quick listen once I would have thought.

The word "colorful" used about a pianist playing Bach doesn't give me great expectations.
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Mandryka

Quote from: (: premont :) on September 12, 2019, 05:22:38 AM
The word "colorful" used about a pianist playing Bach doesn't give me great expectations.

In fact, I think that bit of the blurb is a stretching things a bit!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

San Antone

I have a basic question: do we know why Bach titled them "partitas" instead of "suites"?

amw

I wasn't that impressed with the Levit set but to be fair my current picks for partitas on piano are Rübsam and Robert Levin so maybe that's why. (And for the Romantic influenced sets: Maria Tipo does it better)

The title of Partita seems to be the influence of Froberger & other early north germans, although they used the term to mean a segment of a larger work (eg Froberger's "Partite auf die Maÿerin" is divided into "Partita I", "Partita II" etc). It's possible Bach just misinterpreted the meaning and we've been stuck with it ever since, much like the common time "gigues" in Partita 6 and one of the French suites.

Florestan

Quote from: amw on September 12, 2019, 09:10:43 AM
(And for the Romantic influenced sets: Maria Tipo does it better)

Oh yeah!  8) My favorite recording of the Partitas, hands down.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Ras

My favorite Bach solo piano cd is R. Buchbinder's 2015 Sony recording - sadly these three works is the only Bach he has recorded.  :-X :-\

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"Music is life and, like it, inextinguishable." - Carl Nielsen

premont

#688
Quote from: amw on September 12, 2019, 09:10:43 AM
The title of Partita seems to be the influence of Froberger & other early north germans, although they used the term to mean a segment of a larger work (eg Froberger's "Partite auf die Maÿerin" is divided into "Partita I", "Partita II" etc). It's possible Bach just misinterpreted the meaning and we've been stuck with it ever since, much like the common time "gigues" in Partita 6 and one of the French suites.

I do not think so. Bach's youthful organ partitas (O Gott du frommer Gott, Sei gegrüsset Jesu Christ and Christ der du bist der helle Tag) use the term partita in Froberger's (and Böhm's) old fashioned meaning. I think the term partita in the Clavierübung I sense is more modern, f.i. Graupner used that term for a keyboard suite too.
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Jo498

Bach does use partita in the old sense occasionally as in "partite diverse sopra Christ der du bist der helle Tag". So he must have been aware of that meaning and usage.
And I think Biber and other 17th century people used the term in the singular already synonymously with "suite". Actually not quite, they use "partia" or "Partie". Not sure if anyone else used partita for a suite or sonata. But I am pretty sure the name is not significant.
Later the German "Satz" also means both "setting" (as in vierstimmiger Satz or Choralsatz) and "movement".

edit: Premont already gave examples while I was typing.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Jo498

Why must these recitals almost always pick the c minor Partita and/ the g minor English suite...? I like Bach on piano but I am not probably not getting Pires or Buchbinder because these pieces are so overrepresented in my shelves already.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

Quote from: amw on September 12, 2019, 09:10:43 AM
I wasn't that impressed with the Levit set but to be fair my current picks for partitas on piano are Rübsam and Robert Levin so maybe that's why. (And for the Romantic influenced sets: Maria Tipo does it better)



In what way exactly is Tipo romantic influenced and Rubsam not?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Jo498

I have only 5+6 with Rübsam and it is very strange, but doesn't sound "romantic" to me whereas Tipo does. Not sure how to pinpoint this. But Rübsam does play "linearly" or horizontally with an organist's feeling for independent voices. He is odd in tempi and rubato but I am not sure if these oddities confirm to "romantic". Tipo uses more legato, more colour, cares less for the polyphony (although tbh I'd have ro relisten. Last time I liked them but for too slow final movements of the c minor where I am spoiled by Argerich and others with a take no prisoners approach).

Another one I might call romantic is Pogorelich in English Suites 2+3.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

#693
Quote from: Jo498 on September 12, 2019, 10:15:46 AM
I have only 5+6 with Rübsam and it is very strange, but doesn't sound "romantic" to me whereas Tipo does. Not sure how to pinpoint this. But Rübsam does play "linearly" or horizontally with an organist's feeling for independent voices. He is odd in tempi and rubato but I am not sure if these oddities confirm to "romantic". Tipo uses more legato, more colour, cares less for the polyphony (although tbh I'd have ro relisten. Last time I liked them but for too slow final movements of the c minor where I am spoiled by Argerich and others with a take no prisoners approach).



These sound very plausible ideas about their approaches, what I'm not sure about is why independence of voices or legato playing should be labelled romantic.

Another question. That quote from Schumann that so much inspired Levitt, what does humoristic mean? Bach is, allegedly,  humoristic, and it's suggested that this is romantic and something Levitt wants to bring out. Schumann wrote a piece called Humoresque didn't he, does it turn out that he was inspired by Bach there?

According to Schumann there are three aspects of Bach's music which are shared by Chopin and Mendelssohn, viz

logical
poetic
humoristic

It's all strange and maybe vacuous when you think about it. I'm going to get drunk.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2019, 10:31:06 AM
These sound very plausible ideas about their approaches, what I'm not sure about is why independence of voices or legato playing should be labelled romantic.

Because that kind of (longer stretches of) legato playing wasn't used in the Baroque era but was used endlessly in the Romantic era. And because less care for polyphony results in a more Romantic kind of homophony (= sequences of chords). Jo498's reference to Pogorelich is also spot on, because Pogo treats the two Bach suites like melody (upper voice) with accompaniment all through, - a technique which was much used in the Romantic era..
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Florestan

Quote from: (: premont :) on September 12, 2019, 10:46:31 AM
melody (upper voice) with accompaniment all through, - a technique which was much used in the Romantic era..

It had been extensively used in the Galant Style and the Classical period long before the advent of musical Romanticism.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

premont

Quote from: Florestan on September 12, 2019, 10:56:15 AM
It had been extensively used in the Galant Style and the Classical period long before the advent of musical Romanticism.

Yes, I know. But the Romantics took this technique to their hearts. Contrary to Bach's keyboard suites, which are concentrated polyphony.
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Jo498

humoristic in Schumann does not mean "humourous". But don't ask me what it means.
But it's not true that the romantics viewed Bach as melody and accompaniment. They were interested in polyphony as well. Besides actual fugues and fughettes or the canonical studies (some of which must be among the more successful combinations of strict? canon and melody since Bach), there are Schumann pieces that sound like a "capsized Bach fugue or invention", e.g. maybe the 7th piece in Kreisleriana (can't exactly recall the examples I used to find most striking). And they were also interested in the motoric aspect of some baroque music, e.g. Schumann's toccata. Or take Mendelssohn's P&F, especially the famous e minor.

tldr I think one should distinguish between the diverse compositorial receptions of Bach by the 19th century romantics and a mid/late 20th century playing style of pianists.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

Quote from: Florestan on September 12, 2019, 10:56:15 AM
It had been extensively used in the Galant Style and the Classical period long before the advent of musical Romanticism.

Correct, and philosophically romanticism is opposed to the enlightenment ideas which inspired classicism.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

In French there are two words humour and humeur.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen