Bach on the piano

Started by mn dave, November 13, 2008, 06:12:24 AM

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Florestan

#800
Quote from: Mandryka on February 11, 2020, 04:02:31 AM
Dances which aren't for dancing.

Chopin's Waltzes or Mazurkas are not meant for dancing either, yet there's no reason for treating them as anything else than dances.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

staxomega

Quote from: Mandryka on February 10, 2020, 07:24:53 AM
When it comes to modern piano recordings of music as early as this, questions about HIP are irrelevant. It's just not HIP! Given that, the question that matters most to me is this - is there here an interesting, revealing, intersection of music and performer?

I feel similarly. But I think it is detrimental when it sounds so deconstructed that you've lost the overall line of the music.

Here is Rubsam in the Allemande of the 6th French Suite I mentioned on the previous page: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXMMqUJ7PR4

And Murray Perahia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5LnNe5NLiM

I'm only using Perahia here because I think he illustrates the stark contrast nicely, not because I necessarily enjoy them. Here Rubsam sounds so disjointed that it sounds like a series of notes without consideration for how the overall piece fits together.

staxomega

Quote from: Mandryka on February 10, 2020, 08:44:38 PM

Rubsam doesn't believe that the music is for dancing, so he can play it at a way which lets the listener really smell the roses. Levitt and Hewitt want to preserve the dance connection, I'm not sure why.

I mean in that D Major Partita's allemande that amw mentioned, Levit does play it slowly like Rubsam at a very similar overall tempo (I haven't heard Suzuki), but with more pianistic flair. I find I can't make any generalization about Levit's tempi through the six Partitas, they seem pretty varied but in general yes stylistically I think he plays them a bit more like Maria Tipo and the like.

I really did enjoy Rubsam quite a bit in the third and fourth Partitas and have that CD on the way as well  :laugh: I'll be checking out the rest of them through the week.

Mandryka

#803
Quote from: hvbias on February 11, 2020, 04:21:55 AM


Here is Rubsam in the Allemande of the 6th French Suite I mentioned on the previous page: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXMMqUJ7PR4



It's like a duet for two hands.

Quote from: hvbias on February 11, 2020, 04:21:55 AM
the overall line of the music.


How many independent lines are there at any given time? Perahia's says one, Rubsam says two. I think Perrahia dumbs it down.



Quote from: hvbias on February 11, 2020, 04:22:50 AM
but with more pianistic flair.

What's that?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: Florestan on February 11, 2020, 04:03:39 AM
Chopin's Waltzes or Mazurkas are not meant for dancing either, yet there's no reason for treating them as anything else than dances.

I just don't know how anyone could think that it's right to play the alemande from the 5th partita like something which people would actually move their fert to.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on February 11, 2020, 05:26:42 AM
I just don't know how anyone could think that it's right to play the alemande from the 5th partita like something which people would actually move their fert to.

Maybe these would help:

Quote from: Johann Gottfried Walther, Musikalisches Lexicon (Leipzig, 1732)[the Allemande] must be composed and likewise danced in a grave and ceremonious manner.

Quote from: Johann Mattheson, Der Vollkommene Capellmeister (Hamburg, 1739)[the Allemande is] a serious and well-composed harmoniousness in arpeggiated style, expressing satisfaction or amusement, and delighting in order and calm.

Plus, it stands to reason that if Bach wrote Allemande as a title for this or that movement then he intended them to be played in the spirit of an Allemande, otherwise he would have written Gigue (wait, he did that, too!) or nothing at all (wait, he did that, too!). He wrote Allemande so he clearly wanted Allemande. Any performance which does not convey the spirit, the feeling and the mood of an Allemande is a travesti.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Jo498

I think that in Bach (as in Chopin or Schumann) the "dances" are all over the place.
Some are fairly close to actual dances one could (almost) use as dance music, others are very far removed. Especially the Allemandes by Bach are often so "grave and ceremonious" (or actually it's usually a slow main tempo with flowing 16th/triplets/32nds) that I can hardly perceive any dance character. Even some sarabandes convey more of a slowish ceremonious dance than the typical allemandes. The most dancelike seem menuets, passepieds, gavottes, bourées and some courantes and gigues. So I'd probably perceive interpretations that totally ignore the dance aspect as graceless.
But some of the greatest gigues like the ones in the 5th and 6th partitas depart from this and are angular fugues with only a passing resemblance to any gigue rhythm.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

#807
Quote from: Florestan on February 11, 2020, 05:40:52 AM
Maybe these would help:

Plus, it stands to reason that if Bach wrote Allemande as a title for this or that movement then he intended them to be played in the spirit of an Allemande, otherwise he would have written Gigue (wait, he did that, too!) or nothing at all (wait, he did that, too!). He wrote Allemande so he clearly wanted Allemande. Any performance which does not convey the spirit, the feeling and the mood of an Allemande is a travesti.

I just don't see how you can dance to the allemande to the 5th.


Collin Booth suggested that CU1 is a study of the possibilities of French suite forms, it may well be interesting to listen to the allemandes in sequence, the sarabandes in sequence etc.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

staxomega

Quote from: Mandryka on February 11, 2020, 04:32:59 AM
It's like a duet for two hands.

How many independent lines are there at any given time? Perahia's says one, Rubsam says two. I think Perrahia dumbs it down.

What's that?

Breaking down so clearly what the left and right hand are doing and are almost independent of each sounds very unusual. But I saw those posts you quoted by him from Talk Classical and listened to pieces of his recording of the Goldberg Variations so I guess this is not unusual to him. I don't like Perahia in the French Suites, it was one that illustrated the difference very easily.

I was referring to Levit's recordings of the Partitas in general- he uses more dynamic range, tonal color, pedals and plays with much more legato.

I'm also not entirely sure JS Bach had this intention of making his music into something academic where things like voices are deconstructed so meticulously and laid bare. Didn't people have an issue with pianists playing Art of Fugue because this is what they tended to do?

Mandryka

#809
Quote from: hvbias on February 11, 2020, 01:24:20 PM
Breaking down so clearly what the left and right hand are doing and are almost independent of each sounds very unusual.

The voices should sound as though they're interacting, creating tension through their interaction. A duet, an interaction like madrigal singers. I think Rubsam is often, nearly always, very good at creating this inner tension, at least on harpsichord (I don't listen to the piano recordings so much because I don't like the instrument.) it must be very hard to do. There's a passage by Forkel I think where he talked about how when Bach played he created a sort of life from within the music, I'll try to find it later.

The Goldbergs is by far the most challenging recording Rubsam has made, for me. That's one reason why I value it most, why I find it the most rewarding, 

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

Quote from: hvbias on February 09, 2020, 03:13:42 PM
I have been meaning to hear Schiff's interpretation of WTC on ECM. What I have heard from him on ECM is radically different from the bland Decca recordings. But of recent, whenever I think of WTC I play Jorg Demus' final recording which soars like a man who has 300 years of the WTC in his blood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3-rNMhIyuQ
I've mentioned this before but I had an opportunity to see Demus play WTC in Japan a few years ago in a small room. It was a transcendent experience.

staxomega

#811
Quote from: Mandryka on February 11, 2020, 09:07:42 PM
The voices should sound as though they're interacting, creating tension through their interaction. A duet, an interaction like madrigal singers.

I hear this in the Toccatas disc which is why it was of such interest to me. I'm not really hearing it in French Suites 4 through 6, but I'll keep revisiting them.

Quote
The Goldbergs is by far the most challenging recording Rubsam has made, for me. That's one reason why I value it most, why I find it the most rewarding,

I haven't listened Goldbergs this much since discovering Ekaterina Derzhavina's recording, and Andrew Rangell and Lori Sims have been getting a lot of play time. And I've been messing around with them on piano, mostly Variation 4. I plan to listen to the rest of Rubsam when I'm a bit less burned out on them.

Quote from: milk on February 12, 2020, 04:38:21 AM
I've mentioned this before but I had an opportunity to see Demus play WTC in Japan a few years ago in a small room. It was a transcendent experience.

I imagine it was, haven't really heard them played with this much imagination and interaction/weaving of the voices in many other piano recordings. It's like he is spontaneously playing them just for himself and not for a recording.

Jo498

IN the mid-1990s or so Piano Quarterly or a similar magazine chose Demus' WTC as the best. But this was a ca. 1970 LP recording.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

Quote from: hvbias on February 12, 2020, 06:31:00 AM

I haven't listened Goldbergs this much since discovering Ekaterina Derzhavina's recording, and Andrew Rangell and Lori Sims have been getting a lot of play time. And I've been messing around with them on piano, mostly Variation 4. I plan to listen to the rest of Rubsam when I'm a bit less burned out on them.


Have a go at playing var 4 like Rubsam! I wonder how hard it would be. I don't have a piano any more so I can't try.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

San Antone

To bring the thread back on topic, a few pianists who play Bach well, IMO

Zhu Xiao-Mei
Cedric Pescia
Mikhail Pletnev
Andras Schiff (the ECM recordings)
Maria Tipo
Dina Ugorskaja
Jeremy Denk
Simone Dinnerstein
Vladimir Feltsman
Glenn Gould

Mandryka

Quote from: San Antone on February 12, 2020, 08:08:00 AM
To bring the thread back on topic



Oh bloddy hell -- just go away if you're going to behave in such an unpleasant and silly manner.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

San Antone

Quote from: Mandryka on February 12, 2020, 08:11:59 AM
Oh bloddy hell -- just go away if you're going to behave in such an unpleasant and silly manner.

You are accusing me of being unpleasant?   ::)

Mandryka

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

mc ukrneal

Quote from: San Antone on February 12, 2020, 08:08:00 AM
To bring the thread back on topic, a few pianists who play Bach well, IMO

Zhu Xiao-Mei
Cedric Pescia
Mikhail Pletnev
Andras Schiff (the ECM recordings)
Maria Tipo
Dina Ugorskaja
Jeremy Denk
Simone Dinnerstein
Vladimir Feltsman
Glenn Gould

I loved the Scarlatti of Zhu Xiao-Mei, so I must explore her Bach. Dinnerstein seems to divide opinion. I've not heard her in Bach either though.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

j winter

Quote from: Jo498 on February 12, 2020, 07:01:54 AM
IN the mid-1990s or so Piano Quarterly or a similar magazine chose Demus' WTC as the best. But this was a ca. 1970 LP recording.

Is Demus' last WTC only available on YouTube, or is there a CD/download?  I've dug around quite a bit, and all I can find is the Westminster LP (now mostly OOP in various incarnations) and an SWR release of a recording from 1956.   Can anyone provide a link to the one being referenced above?

Thanks!   
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice