Bach on the piano

Started by mn dave, November 13, 2008, 06:12:24 AM

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milk

Quote from: San Antone on March 14, 2020, 07:25:56 AM
Like who?  Are you looking for a Liberace of classical music?  I don't see the point.

For me, the piano as played by Schiff is the perfect balance between exploiting the piano's dynamism but not spoiling the counterpoint with sustain pedaling.

Milk, I think I seen you post that you do not like to hear dynamics in Bach.  Do you have trouble with dynamics in general, i.e. some kind of hearing problem - or is this an aesthetic conclusion on your part: that Bach's keyboard works should not be played with dynamics?
No no. I just get annoyed when I put something on that's soft and suddenly it's loud. It's why I rarely listen to Chopin ( though I do sometimes). But I can appreciate Chopin and if I'm in the mood I'll still listen to someone like Feinberg - who I think uses a lot of soft-loud. I don't have any dogma about it. I do have bouts of compulsivity so if I'm in the mood where I'm noticing it too much, I'll turn it off.
I don't think I'm too rigid so I can come back to something I disliked and try again to find appreciation.

San Antone

Quote from: milk on March 14, 2020, 07:44:56 AM
No no. I just get annoyed when I put something on that's soft and suddenly it's loud. It's why I rarely listen to Chopin ( though I do sometimes). But I can appreciate Chopin and if I'm in the mood I'll still listen to someone like Feinberg - who I think uses a lot of soft-loud. I don't have any dogma about it. I do have bouts of compulsivity so if I'm in the mood where I'm noticing it too much, I'll turn it off.
I don't think I'm too rigid so I can come back to something I disliked and try again to find appreciation.

I am willing to bet before you began to explore classical music you listened mainly to pop or rock music where the dynamic range is narrow.  One of the hallmarks of classical music is it wide dynamic range.  I think the key is having a decent stereo system and finding the right volume setting so that the soft passages are distinct but the loud sections are not too loud.

Mandryka

Quote from: San Antone on March 14, 2020, 09:28:27 AM
One of the hallmarks of classical music is it wide dynamic range. 

Certainly not for music designed for harpsichord or clavichord or fortepiano -- including Haydn, Mozart and Schubert.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Jo498

What does fortepiano/pianoforte mean again? ;)
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

Quote from: Jo498 on March 14, 2020, 10:42:24 AM
What does fortepiano/pianoforte mean again? ;)

Whatever they mean the idea of "wide" doesn't come into it. The (misleading) claim was than classical music means wide dynamic range.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

San Antone

#885
Quote from: Mandryka on March 14, 2020, 10:46:03 AM
Whatever they mean the idea of "wide" doesn't come into it. The (misleading) claim was than classical music means wide dynamic range.

Certainly not for music designed for harpsichord or clavichord or fortepiano

You cited one example of a harpsichord, but for all other forms of performing classical music, vocal, instrumental, dynamics play an important and expressive role. If anything, your comments to the contrary are what are misleading.  The fortepiano was named precisely because it could execute dynamcis.  Also the clavichord could make loud and soft, not as wide a range as pianos, but certainly more than a harpsichord.

Quote from: Jo498 on March 14, 2020, 10:42:24 AM
What does fortepiano/pianoforte mean again? ;)

A fortepiano was the precursor (which took more than 200 years to develop into the modern grand) to the modern piano, which was originally called a pianoforte, then shortened to piano.

vers la flamme

Quote from: San Antone on March 14, 2020, 11:03:53 AM
You cited one example of a harpsichord, but for all other forms of performing classical music, vocal, instrumental, dynamics play an important and expressive role. If anything, your comments to the contrary are what are misleading.  The fortepiano was named precisely because it could execute dynamcis.  Also the clavichord could make loud and soft, not as wide a range as pianos, but certainly more than a harpsichord.

A fortepiano was the precursor (which took more than 200 years to develop into the modern grand) to the modern piano, which was originally called a pianoforte, then shortened to piano.

Jo was cheekily alluding to the exact point you described, not asking for the definitions of those terms in earnest.

milk

Quote from: San Antone on March 14, 2020, 09:28:27 AM
I am willing to bet before you began to explore classical music you listened mainly to pop or rock music where the dynamic range is narrow.  One of the hallmarks of classical music is it wide dynamic range.  I think the key is having a decent stereo system and finding the right volume setting so that the soft passages are distinct but the loud sections are not too loud.
Yes that's true. But I'm not sure a good stereo would help. I generally don't like big sounding music anyway; I don't listen to symphonies, for example. But I think you'e partially correct here.   

San Antone

#888
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 14, 2020, 11:22:22 AM
Jo was cheekily alluding to the exact point you described, not asking for the definitions of those terms in earnest.

Pardon my tardy uptake.   ;)  (Hat tip, Andy Sipowicz)

Quote from: milk on March 15, 2020, 04:37:21 AM
Yes that's true. But I'm not sure a good stereo would help. I generally don't like big sounding music anyway; I don't listen to symphonies, for example. But I think you'e partially correct here.   

I get it; I also don't listen to much orchestral music, preferring chamber and solo works.  But with keyboard music I enjoy a pianist's capability to play Bach using dynamics in order to come closer to a cantabile (singing) style of phrasing.  A piano can never truly play in a singing style, not like a wind instrument or a violin, e.g. - but being unable to articulate any dynamics, IMO, is too limiting for my enjoyment.

8)

milk

#889


I'm giving this a listen today. Her Allemande in the fourth partita clocks in at over 10 minutes. She's very clear.

George

Quote from: milk on March 15, 2020, 04:50:58 PM
I'm giving this a listen today. Her Allemande in the fourth partita clocks in at over 10 minutes. She's very clear.

Damn, thought that was Audrey Hepburn.  :o
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

San Antone

Goldberg Variations by one of my favorite pianists, Ragna Schirmer




milk


Hasn't cancelled culture gone far enough? I was gonna do my Emily Litella. Never mind (I know, corona cancel). But Yang plays the fourth partitas on her debut recording, "resonance." She pairs it with Schumann's
Davidsbundlertänze. You might have seen this on musicweb. Anyhoo, her partita is worth a listen. Obviously she's talented - whether not not you like it. I'm in the middle only because of the dynamics, especially in Allemande. Still, she's a firecracker in the fast bits. 

T. D.

Quote from: milk on March 15, 2020, 04:37:21 AM
Yes that's true. But I'm not sure a good stereo would help. I generally don't like big sounding music anyway; I don't listen to symphonies, for example. ...

Neither do I (well, extremely rarely). Needless to say, that's very much an outlying stance on classical music forums. I do listen to moderate amounts of opera, though.

amw

Quote from: milk on April 23, 2020, 05:38:29 AM

Hasn't cancelled culture gone far enough? I was gonna do my Emily Litella. Never mind (I know, corona cancel). But Yang plays the fourth partitas on her debut recording, "resonance." She pairs it with Schumann's
Davidsbundlertänze. You might have seen this on musicweb. Anyhoo, her partita is worth a listen. Obviously she's talented - whether not not you like it. I'm in the middle only because of the dynamics, especially in Allemande. Still, she's a firecracker in the fast bits. 
I like the DBT very much. Haven't got around to the partita.

milk

On my playlist tonight was, first, Joanna Macgregor's AOF. It's good enough for me that I'll listen to it again soon to get more out of it. I'm also listening to Andrew Rangell's French Suites tonight and liking it. I might try his AOF. Has anyone here followed Rangell's career? I guess he had nerve damage that took him out for almost a decade. 

staxomega

#896
Quote from: milk on April 29, 2020, 07:08:27 AM
On my playlist tonight was, first, Joanna Macgregor's AOF. It's good enough for me that I'll listen to it again soon to get more out of it. I'm also listening to Andrew Rangell's French Suites tonight and liking it. I might try his AOF. Has anyone here followed Rangell's career? I guess he had nerve damage that took him out for almost a decade.

I posted about really enjoying his recording of the Goldberg Variations in some thread here, this recording had me spellbound and I listened to it very regularly at one point. It's very much of that "composer-pianist" style where he takes more imaginative interpretive liberties. And I normally barely listen to the GV, usually once a year if that. I'm a bit more rigid with AoF so I've not been in any hurry to hear his recording of it. Last one I listened to was Zhu Xiao Mei, maybe I was not in the right mood for it, but initial impressions was disappointing with some garish dynamics in places, perhaps took me by surprise given her normally more tasteful interpretations.

milk

Quote from: hvbias on April 30, 2020, 12:24:04 PM
I posted about really enjoying his recording of the Goldberg Variations in some thread here, this recording had me spellbound and I listened to it very regularly at one point. It's very much of that "composer-pianist" style where he takes more imaginative interpretive liberties. And I normally barely listen to the GV, usually once a year if that. I'm a bit more rigid with AoF so I've not been in any hurry to hear his recording of it. Last one I listened to was Zhu Xiao Mei, maybe I was not in the right mood for it, but initial impressions was disappointing with some garish dynamics in places, perhaps took me by surprise given her normally more tasteful interpretations.
I wonder if it'd be any kind of benefit for a pianist to try to play without any dynamics at all - just in practice as an exercise.

SergeCpp

Hello to Bach on the Piano thread community! I'd read this thread from time to time and eventually it is mostly this thread (its contents and mentions and my willingness to add something) that encouraged me to register on forum. I will not repeat my introduction post here, so let me introduce Pietro Soraci.

I was very astonished hearing his English Suites first time (a month or two ago) and I cannot stop and listened a half of recording (three suites) at once. Usually I listen new recording at so-called checkpoints (specific places important for me) to determine whether performance is suitable for me for further listening.

N.B. Links below (and videos in playlists) are of YouTube ownership (licensed and auto-generated by YouTube) and fully legal. And because of YouTube policies are not guaranteed to be available at all (depending on visitor's geolocation).

Firstly, some quick-links and timings that can be of interest.

Partita 4, Allemande: 10:10
Partita 6, Sarabande: 7:25
Goldberg Variations, Variation 25: 10:31.



J.S.Bach: [ English Suites | Partitas: Vol. 1 & Vol. 2 | Goldberg Variations ] Pietro Soraci (Piano)

QuoteThe Italian pianist, Pietro Soraci, showed his extraordinary natural talent in playing the piano since he was 3 years old, gaining the interest of the national press and televisions. He performed first when he was 11, with the Orchestra of Bellini Opera Theater.

...he was awarded of several prizes in national and international piano competitions and in particular he was recognized as the best Italian pianist by the International Piano Competition Frederic Chopin in Varsaw (Poland) in 1985.

J.S.Bach: Samtliche Klavierwerke: Project created with the collaboration of the pianist Pietro Soraci and the musicologist and president of the Osaka Mozart Association Edmondo Filippini... a completely new version, each release is based on the only extant complete critical edition published by Barenreiter who is also one of the project supporter.

bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Soraci-Pietro.htm
There is a strangeness in simple things.

staxomega

Quote from: milk on April 29, 2020, 07:08:27 AM
On my playlist tonight was, first, Joanna Macgregor's AOF. It's good enough for me that I'll listen to it again soon to get more out of it. I'm also listening to Andrew Rangell's French Suites tonight and liking it. I might try his AOF. Has anyone here followed Rangell's career? I guess he had nerve damage that took him out for almost a decade.

I ended up listening to Rangell, I couldn't make it past Contrapunctus IV. Far too weird for me and constantly being taken out of the music, the most jarring part were the seemingly haphazardly placed accents. I did listen to the same amount from Joanna Macgregor and I enjoyed this much more, there is a certain beauty to her playing almost like early era Rosalyn Tureck, I only listened to the first four Contrapuncti.

I briefly listened to the recently released Helsinki recording of Nikolayeva, I don't hear much difference from the Hyperion recording and the sound quality is significantly worse.

I will explore Macgregor some more today, I take it she has only recorded it once and the various versions on different CDs are the same recording?