Bach on the piano

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

When I bought the set, I thought that the performance was average. Now I like the recording though the playing is a little fast (and maybe too strong). I wonder if he played fast because it's piano and he wanted to maintain liveliness.

[Mandryka]

Vedernikov seems to be trying desperately to not use piano effects - dynamics are mostly terrassed and he doesn't want to use rubato or ornamentation either. The result for me is a bit without relief, much the same touch and volume all the time, not a lot of pulse variation, and he doesn't really make the counterpoint come alive. To compound the limitations, he doesn't create a lot of colour variety - it's like, almost pure tones all the time! Just compare Rübsam on piano for Naxos in the allemande or sarabande of the first English suite and you'll may be see what I mean about counterpoint - Rübsam manages to create the feeling of the voices intersecting, interacting. And Rübsam is more willing to use gentle dynamics too.

I like Vedernikov a lot, but I can't explain why, it's not a rational thing - I think Rübsam makes more poetry out of it on piano.

[Mandryka]

This one's caught my attention. "Deeply felt" as they say, she's searching for the affective possibilities in the music, but not sentimental or self indulgent, and fairly restrained in terms of piano effects.  Some information on the pianist, who I can't remember ever hearing about before, here

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?6404-Pianist-Julia-Cload-has-died

[Atriod]

Is Leonhardt's Bach a mixed bag? It seems weird to even think about such a serious artist who dedicated his life, more or less, to this single composer, but I'm asking because I think I agree with DBK that his EMI English Suites, and the Partitas for that matter, are a bit on the academic side. However, I LOVE his French Suites (Seon—I need to get this on CD), his AOF, and his Goldberg (I have the Teldec). Mixed feelings about his WTC, or maybe I'm just never in the right mood when I go to put it on. Truth be told the WTC is a work I have yet to fully come to terms with.

Yes, it's a mixed bag. My two absolute must have recordings are the DHM WTC and AoF. I like some of his organ performances as well though Leonhardt was not the most virtuosic organist.

For those two recordings there is a "spirituality" in Leonhardt's interpretations and I don't just mean measured tempos, it's also with his phrasing. Contrast this to Pinnock's recent WTC recordings which are also not flamboyant and to me they came across as dry and forgettable. It comes across as almost overly cautious and lacks some of that freedom you heard from him in like the harpsichord concertos.

edit: for the DHM WTC I have to thank Howard for mentioning an SACD release from Japan, this made it far more listenable compared to the steely sounding late 80s CD sets. They didn't roll anything off on the SACD, but it does sound more natural.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Vedernikov seems to be trying desperately to not use piano effects - dynamics are mostly terrassed and he doesn't want to use rubato or ornamentation either. The result for me is a bit without relief, much the same touch and volume all the time, not a lot of pulse variation, and he doesn't really make the counterpoint come alive. To compound the limitations, he doesn't create a lot of colour variety - it's like, almost pure tones all the time! Just compare Rübsam on piano for Naxos in the allemande or sarabande of the first English suite and you'll may be see what I mean about counterpoint - Rübsam manages to create the feeling of the voices intersecting, interacting. And Rübsam is more willing to use gentle dynamics too.

I like Vedernikov a lot, but I can't explain why, it's not a rational thing - I think Rübsam makes more poetry out of it on piano.

First I thought that his playing was raw, monotonic and unrefined. Now I don't know. He sounds colorful and vibrant to me. Rubsam's English Suites is not for me for now. I will revisit Gieseking.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Enjoying the albums this weekend.

[prémont]

Enjoying the albums this weekend.

As you know I'm not keen on baroque keyboard music played on modern piano. All the same I have an inclination towards the clavichord inspired interpretations of Wolfgang Rübsam and Peter Hill.  Next to them come the more harpsichord inspired interpretations of Ivo Janssen who generously offers us as well as Bach's complete keyboard work without pedal. He uses I think - without consulting my shelves - a very neutral Yamaha instrument, and plays in a very baroque spirit and never goes to pianistic extremes. In some way I think he might have been better off if he had used a harpsichord for the recordings, even if this would mean that he had been forced to rethink his touch. But even on piano I find his approach most enjoyable. It's all about the pianist and not as much about the instrument.

[milk]

This one's caught my attention. "Deeply felt" as they say, she's searching for the affective possibilities in the music, but not sentimental or self indulgent, and fairly restrained in terms of piano effects.  Some information on the pianist, who I can't remember ever hearing about before, here

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?6404-Pianist-Julia-Cload-has-died

Wonderful Bach!

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

As you know I'm not keen on baroque keyboard music played on modern piano. All the same I have an inclination towards the clavichord inspired interpretations of Wolfgang Rübsam and Peter Hill.  Next to them come the more harpsichord inspired interpretations of Ivo Janssen who generously offers us as well as Bach's complete keyboard work without pedal. He uses I think - without consulting my shelves - a very neutral Yamaha instrument, and plays in a very baroque spirit and never goes to pianistic extremes. In some way I think he might have been better off if he had used a harpsichord for the recordings, even if this would mean that he had been forced to rethink his touch. But even on piano I find his approach most enjoyable. It's all about the pianist and not as much about the instrument.

By "Baroque spirit", I imagine you meant things like jubilant rhythms, solid notes and unembellished, if heightened, elegance.

[prémont]

By "Baroque spirit", I imagine you meant things like jubilant rhythms, solid notes and unembellished, if heightened, elegance.

Yes, this would be some of it. But also that he doesn't fall victim to stylistic romanticizing.

[Mandryka]

Well, according to ChatGPT

Overall, the spirit of Baroque music can be characterized as intricate, expressive, and dramatic, with a focus on ornamentation, emotional depth, and technical prowess.

As far as stylistic romanticizing is concerned, Chat GPT says

While Baroque music emphasizes formalism, ornamentation, and collective expression, Romantic music focuses on individualism, personal expression, lyrical melodies, programmatic elements, and expanded orchestration. Falling victim to stylistic romanticising on piano would consist of excessive rubato, pedal, dynamics and undisciplined ornamentation. 



ChatGPT did not like @Dry Brett Kavanaugh 's definition of the spirit of baroque as jubilant rhythms, solid notes and unembellished, if heightened, elegance. He  said

While the description you provided highlights some aspects of the Baroque spirit, it does not fully capture the ornamentation, expressive contrasts, polyphony, and continuity that are fundamental to the style. The spirit of Baroque music is multifaceted, encompassing both joyful and somber expressions, intricate ornamentation, dramatic contrasts, and the interplay of complex melodic lines.

[prémont]

Falling victim to stylistic romanticising on piano would consist of excessive rubato, pedal, dynamics and undisciplined ornamentation.

Yes, this is some of what I meant.

ChatGPT did not like @Dry Brett Kavanaugh 's definition of the spirit of baroque as jubilant rhythms, solid notes and unembellished, if heightened, elegance.

I don't think DBK pretended to give a full definition of "baroque spirit", and this is also why I answered in this way:

Yes, this would be some of it.

As to ornamentation in baroque music I appreciate ornamentation on piano to be kept modest. It very easily sounds clumsy when overdone.

[milk]

This one's caught my attention. "Deeply felt" as they say, she's searching for the affective possibilities in the music, but not sentimental or self indulgent, and fairly restrained in terms of piano effects.  Some information on the pianist, who I can't remember ever hearing about before, here

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?6404-Pianist-Julia-Cload-has-died

I've grown so fond of this in the last few days. She reminds me a bit of Demus. I'm not sure what to say about it. She's very atmospheric and I guess not far from the harpsichord in style. But it is searching Bach.

[Mandryka]

I've grown so fond of this in the last few days. She reminds me a bit of Demus. I'm not sure what to say about it. She's very atmospheric and I guess not far from the harpsichord in style. But it is searching Bach.

Yes it's definitely got a bit of magic. I'll try to hear her Goldberg Variations soon too.

I'm not sure what the magic is. Part of it may be that somehow you know she's not on autopilot. She means the music.

[prémont]

I've grown so fond of this in the last few days. She reminds me a bit of Demus. I'm not sure what to say about it. She's very atmospheric and I guess not far from the harpsichord in style. But it is searching Bach.

How would you describe her compared to Peter Hill?

Cload's WTC book I is available as download from Presto, but not book II, and no clips are available from book II, so I might just consider book I for a start.

[Mandryka]

You can hear all Book 1 here, @premont

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_muCaCG-RWPg3L6JqA-OWbpm5qbVdOeZe8&playnext=1&index=1

[milk]

How would you describe her compared to Peter Hill?

Cload's WTC book I is available as download from Presto, but not book II, and no clips are available from book II, so I might just consider book I for a start.

I would have to really concentrate to try to compare. Hill has a very soft touch but there's no mistaking that Hill is a pianist. He's a pianist who is able to bring Bach across with humanity. If I want to hear a great pianist, there's Hill. Cloud sounds like she could almost be playing a harpsichord to me. The recording is very different. I could see someone being annoyed by it. It puts the piano on one tonal/dynamic plane. She employs rubato liberally. I'd say she's expressive in every moment of Bach but she doesn't get carried away. There's nothing false or fussy in her playing. She reminds me a little of Demus in that respect but also much more of harpsichord versions.

[Atriod]

As you know I'm not keen on baroque keyboard music played on modern piano. All the same I have an inclination towards the clavichord inspired interpretations of Wolfgang Rübsam and Peter Hill.  Next to them come the more harpsichord inspired interpretations of Ivo Janssen who generously offers us as well as Bach's complete keyboard work without pedal. He uses I think - without consulting my shelves - a very neutral Yamaha instrument, and plays in a very baroque spirit and never goes to pianistic extremes. In some way I think he might have been better off if he had used a harpsichord for the recordings, even if this would mean that he had been forced to rethink his touch. But even on piano I find his approach most enjoyable. It's all about the pianist and not as much about the instrument.

I need to revisit Ivo Janssen's box set. I sampled him playing Ludus Tonalis and immediately bought the recording.

Well, according to ChatGPT

Overall, the spirit of Baroque music can be characterized as intricate, expressive, and dramatic, with a focus on ornamentation, emotional depth, and technical prowess.

As far as stylistic romanticizing is concerned, Chat GPT says

While Baroque music emphasizes formalism, ornamentation, and collective expression, Romantic music focuses on individualism, personal expression, lyrical melodies, programmatic elements, and expanded orchestration. Falling victim to stylistic romanticising on piano would consist of excessive rubato, pedal, dynamics and undisciplined ornamentation. 



ChatGPT did not like @Dry Brett Kavanaugh 's definition of the spirit of baroque as jubilant rhythms, solid notes and unembellished, if heightened, elegance. He  said

While the description you provided highlights some aspects of the Baroque spirit, it does not fully capture the ornamentation, expressive contrasts, polyphony, and continuity that are fundamental to the style. The spirit of Baroque music is multifaceted, encompassing both joyful and somber expressions, intricate ornamentation, dramatic contrasts, and the interplay of complex melodic lines.

Good description from ChatGPT, I for one welcome our AI overlords.

[Mandryka]

Good description from ChatGPT, I for one welcome our AI overlords.

I've been exploring v4 of chatgpt a lot. At the moment it is very unreliable, if you ask it specific questions it comes back with falsehoods - and then when challenged, it apologies and has another go. This sort of thing

ME: Are there any musical manuscripts in the hand of Antoine Forqueray?

CHAT: Yes, there are musical manuscripts in the hand of Antoine Forqueray. . . The original manuscripts of Forqueray's "Pièces de viole" are held in various libraries and archives. The Bibliothèque nationale de France (National Library of France) in Paris, for example . . .

ME: Can you please check that the manuscripts are in Antoine's hand, and not Jean-Baptiste's

CHAT: I apologize for the confusion in my previous response. I cannot directly access specific libraries or archives to verify the handwriting on the manuscripts of Antoine Forqueray and Jean-Baptiste Forqueray. . . Please note that the attribution of specific works to Antoine or Jean-Baptiste Forqueray can sometimes be challenging due to the similarities in their musical styles and the collaborative nature of their compositions. . .

ME: How do you know that Antoine and Jean Baptiste had similar musical styles?

CHAT: I apologize for the incorrect statement in my previous response. It is more accurate to say that Antoine and Jean-Baptiste Forqueray were part of the same musical tradition and performed in similar styles, rather than having identical musical styles. . .

ME: What records are there of Jean-Baptiste's performance style?

CHAT: A valuable source is a collection of six sonatas for viola da gamba and continuo composed by Jean-Baptiste Forqueray himself. These sonatas, known as the "Pièces de viole avec la basse-continue," offer insights into his compositional style and provide indications of his preferences regarding ornamentation, phrasing, and interpretation.

ME: I thought those pieces for gamba were by Antoine -- published by Jean Baptiste, but the music was written by his father. Please check.

CHAT: You are correct, and I apologize for the confusion in my previous response. . .

ME: So now, once again, on what basis do you assert that Antoine and Jean Baptiste had a similar style?

CHAT: I apologize for any confusion caused by my previous responses. . . . While there may have been some stylistic similarities between Antoine and Jean-Baptiste as they collaborated and performed together, attributing specific shared traits to their individual styles is challenging due to the limited information available. . .

ME: How do you know that Antoine and Jean Baptiste performed together? What is the evidence for that?

CHAT: I apologize for the confusion caused by my previous statement. There is no concrete evidence to suggest that Antoine and Jean-Baptiste Forqueray performed together as a duo. The information I provided in my previous response was incorrect.

But it did do one really impressive thing. This discussion I had with it about Proust may be the best discussion I've ever had on the subject

ME: In A la recherche du temps perdu, does Marcel know for sure that Albertine has been cheating on him?

CHAT: . . . Marcel suspects that Albertine may have been unfaithful, but definitive proof or confirmation of her infidelity is elusive. . .

ME: But doesn't Gilberte tell him that Albertine has been having lesbian sex?

CHAT: You are correct. In "À la recherche du temps perdu," Gilberte does inform Marcel that Albertine has engaged in same-sex relationships with other women. This revelation adds to Marcel's suspicions and contributes to his ongoing doubts about Albertine's fidelity. Marcel's perception of Albertine's actions and his interpretation of Gilberte's words further complicate his understanding of their relationship. . .

ME: Do you think that Marcel has doubts about the truth of Gilberte's revelation? If so, why do you think this?

CHAT: Yes, Marcel does have doubts about the truth of Gilberte's revelation regarding Albertine's same-sex relationships. Marcel's doubts stem from his own insecurities, his tendency to question the motives and honesty of others, and the complex nature of human perception and memory.

Marcel is a highly introspective and introspective character. He is prone to overanalyzing and second-guessing his own thoughts and emotions. This self-doubt extends to his perceptions of others and the information they provide. He often questions the motives and reliability of those around him, including Gilberte.

Furthermore, Marcel's understanding of truth and reality is shaped by his own subjective experiences and memories. He acknowledges the fallibility of memory and the malleability of perception, which leads him to question the accuracy and veracity of information he receives from others.

Additionally, Marcel's deep-seated insecurities and jealousy further contribute to his doubts. He struggles with his own feelings of inadequacy and fears of being deceived or betrayed. These internal struggles make it difficult for him to fully trust the information he receives, even from someone like Gilberte, who has personal knowledge of Albertine's relationships.

[Mandryka]

Here's the worst

Me: Are there any symphonies which only use piano -- not transcriptions of symphonies.

CHAT: Symphony No. 1 for Solo Piano by Franz Liszt:

Symphony No. 3 "Klaviermusik" by Alfred Schnittke:

Symphony No. 4 "Jascha Kuchumov" by Nikolai Medtner:

Symphony No. 1 "Jeremiah Symphony" by Leonard Bernstein:

ME: Is there a recording of the Liszt symphony you mentioned?

CHAT: I apologize for any confusion caused. I must correct my previous response. There is no Symphony No. 1 by Franz Liszt for solo piano. I apologize for the misinformation.

ME: Please verify that Schnittke's Symphony 3 is scored for piano

CHAT: I apologize for the incorrect information provided in my previous response. I appreciate your diligence in pointing out the error. . .

ME: Please verify what you said about Medtner's Symphony 4 is correct

CHAT: I apologize for the incorrect information provided in my previous response. I appreciate your diligence in pointing out the error. . .

ME: I ask again, are there any symphonies for solo piano

CHAT: Symphony in B minor "Polish" by Frédéric Chopin:

Symphony No. 4 "Dramatic" by Robert Schumann:

Symphony No. 6 "Pathétique" by Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky: