Bach on the piano

[prémont]

.. but I tend not to involve historical correctness to form my conclusions.

I do, because I think it brings me closer to the composer and his works and world.

Contrast the decision of Allan Curtis to play the opening of the 4th English suite quite so rigidly
with Glenn Gould's decision to play it more flexiblyGould's decision was better because it sounds more spontaneous. By comparison Curtis is too steadfast too heavy  and sounds over accented.

There are lots of rhythmic flexibility in Curtis´playing, more than in Gould´s I think. Gould did on the other hand chose a faster tempo and a more detached articulation, but this is to my knowledge not an indication of spontaneity.

Sounding spontaneous is the basic  performance value I'm appealing to .

Sounding spontaneous or being spontaneous? Very different I think.

On harpsichord the early HIP performers are the ones I like -- Landowska, Walcha, Kirkpatrick, early Puaena, early Leonhardt.

Incidentally Walcha is one of the least spontaneous Bach interpreters I can think of. I once heard him at a recital in Copenhagen playing BWV 535 (apropos) and 540, and his playing was virtually a carbon copy of his recordings. This fact does not at all prevent me from enjoying his recordings very much.

It would be nice to have a book which would help open up the later HIP harpsichordists to me.

Yes, this would certainly interest me too.

[karlhenning]

Sounding spontaneous or being spontaneous? Very different I think.

You're right, and an important point, Reminds me of the remark (attributed to George Burns) that for success in the theatre, you need sincerity. "If you can fake that, you've got it made."

[prémont]

You're right, and an important point, Reminds me of the remark (attributed to George Burns) that for success in the theatre, you need sincerity. "If you can fake that, you've got it made."

Reminds me of the immortal story about two violinists who attended the recital of a collegue.
Afterwards one of the two violinists said to the other violinist: I did not know he could play that well.
The other violinist answered: Neither can he, he was just faking.

[Mandryka]

Incidentally Walcha is one of the least spontaneous Bach interpreters I can think of.

He puts up a bloody good illusion. I listened to him playing French Suite 6 and the courante sounded so spontaneous that I was on the edge of my seat.
Are there any live Walcha recordings? I want to hear him live in the French and English suites!

It's quite common for performers to take more risks live than in the studio. The results are often interesting shipwrecks.

I do, because I think it brings me closer to the composer and his works and world.

That's maybe the heart of the matter. I've never really focussed on aspects of historical reconstruction. What matters to me is the the performer's response to the score now. That's why I'm open to stuff like Rodarmer's Goldbergs.

Sorry, I do not hear drama, only trivialization.

One reason could be that you think it's too sweet to be dramatic. If so I don't agree.
another could be because Cortot's impulses are trivial.  But Leonhardt's aren't.
If that's right then I think there are some important questions begged. There are other forms of interpretation  than historical reconstruction which are at least as appropriate in normal performance.

[prémont]

Are there any live Walcha recordings?

This is the only one I know:

http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/organist/helmut-walcha

[prémont]

One reason could be that you think it's too sweet to be dramatic. If so I don't agree.
another could be because Cortot's impulses are trivial.  But Leonhardt's aren't.
If that's right then I think there are some important questions begged. There are other forms of interpretation  than historical reconstruction which are at least as appropriate in normal performance.

Cortots impulses were an expression of the musical taste in the casual year 1932. Cortot was an inspiring interpretator of Chopin and other romantic piano composers, but his authority in romantic music does not make his Bach interesting to me, inasmuch Cortot looks upon Bach through - in my opinion - misguided romantic glasses.

And what is normal performance? Some which suits current taste? As we know taste changes, so why should current taste be so important?

[Bulldog]

OK - I like to collect Bach's Keyboard Works w/ both a harpsichord & piano version (or more than one in some cases) but just me!

Concerning the French Suites, I have David Cates on the harpsichord (image below) - pleased and I believe still a strong recommendation from Don (i.e. Bulldog); now I had the Andras Schiff piano recordings (also below), but was not that pleased - SO, what 'piano' versions of these works might be suggested (please do not recommend Gould - I needed 'allergy shots' against him in my LP collecting days - buy again just me and humming, I guess -  ) - thanks for any comments and help - Dave 

 

I've just returned from a long vacation, and about the last thing I'd want to hear is Andras Schiff's set.  Unfortunately, most other piano versions aren't all that good either, leading me to wonder if the French Suites are less well-suited to the piano than most of Bach's other keyboard works. 

Rubsam's at the top for me followed by Rangell.

[SonicMan46]

I've just returned from a long vacation, and about the last thing I'd want to hear is Andras Schiff's set.  Unfortunately, most other piano versions aren't all that good either, leading me to wonder if the French Suites are less well-suited to the piano than most of Bach's other keyboard works. 

Rubsam's at the top for me followed by Rangell.

Hi Don - I thought that you would eventually respond - hope that your had a nice vacation! 

As I remember from a previous post, your said 'paraphrased' since I cannot remember the specific words ''that if you must get a piano version of the French Suites, then go w/ Hewitt" - now I may be completely off base in my recollection, but will certainly will check out your recommendations mentioned above - thanks as always, Dave 

[PaulSC]

There's a new recording of the French Suites by the pianist Christoph Ullrich. Has anyone heard it?

He skips the first suite; the other five fit on a single disc.

[prémont]

There's a new recording of the French Suites by the pianist Christoph Ullrich. Has anyone heard it?

He skips the first suite; the other five fit on a single disc.

Never heard of it, - nor him,

BTW I am listening to the Ivo Janssen set in these days (20 CDs), and my first impression is very positive.
More, when I have done the listening all through.

[Marc]

[....] I am listening to the Ivo Janssen set in these days (20 CDs), and my first impression is very positive.
[....]

I wanted to vote for him in this thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16126.0.html

But:

[....] I very rarely listen to Bach on the piano. It's worse enough already to listen to my own strumming. [....]

Oh, btw, I enjoy Ivo Janssen playing Bach. But he's not on the list.

More, when I have done the listening all through.

I will be reading it with great interest. I have some 'solo' stuff of Janssen's Bach (a.o. WTC and Goldbergs), but the entire set is tempting.

[jlaurson]

There's a new recording of the French Suites by the pianist Christoph Ullrich. Has anyone heard it?

He skips the first suite; the other five fit on a single disc.

Yep, got it and spun it a few times... alas without any revelatory insights gained from it so far... which is not to say that I didn't enjoy it.

[PaulSC]

Thanks for the replies re: Ullrich. I'll watch, here and in various publications, for reviews of his French Suites. At his website, one can hear clips from his earlier recordings, including complete performances of the F minor and G major Sinfonias.

At the moment, I'm leaning heavily towards Koroliov for an interpretation on piano of this repertoire. In the previews I've heard, Janssen seems to make very heavy use of agogic emphasis on strong beats. It's a technique I like fine in moderation, but if overused it can destroy the musical flow. Rubsam's Bach can be particularly problematic in this respect. I certainly won't write off Janssen on the basis of a few brief previews, but for instance I don't like what I hear in his Allemande from the E-flat major Suite previewed here.

[SonicMan46]

Thanks for the replies re: Ullrich. I'll watch, here and in various publications, for reviews of his French Suites......

At the moment, I'm leaning heavily towards Koroliov for an interpretation on piano of this repertoire.....

Hi Paul - this thread is becoming interesting!  Don has been one of my MAIN references for Bach keyboard works - I guess that he has 'dumped' Angela Hewitt's performance from his recent post just above.  I'll be looking forward to other suggestions, options, and possibilities - Dave

[George]

How do folks like Gavrilov's Goldberg Variations on DG?

[Bulldog]

Hi Paul - this thread is becoming interesting!  Don has been one of my MAIN references for Bach keyboard works - I guess that he has 'dumped' Angela Hewitt's performance from his recent post just above. 

"Dump" is a harsh word.  I don't think less of her recording that I did a few years ago.  It's just that Rubsam on Naxos is not a set, so I didn't offer it up earlier.  Also, the French Suites on piano isn't a very rewarding way to go; it's the one major Bach solo keyboard work/set of works where I prefer many harpsichord versions before any on piano.

[DavidRoss]

http://pianosociety.com/new/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4955

[SonicMan46]

http://pianosociety.com/new/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4955

Hi David - thanks for that link - I don't visit many other music forums (too many others that I belong to to track!), but that OP was of great interest; I'm sure that Bach would have enjoyed the development of the modern piano, but just a guess? 

Don - thanks for your clarification - 'dump' is a fairly benign term, I guess - my implication is that Hewitt was not at the top of your list for a piano version (if that is what one wants?) - maybe I should look for some more non-piano interpretations then?  Dave

[prémont]

Well, some considerations after having traversed Ivo Janssen´s 20CD "complete" Bach keyboard music set.

This is a mixture of modern and historically inspired playing. The chosen instruments are not large Steinways, but two Yamaha grand pianos CF III and C7 respectively, with a bright and crystal clear sound reminding me of the clinical sound of some neobaroque organs (Metzler or Marcussen). Also the equal tuning adds an element of modernism as with  Marcussen organs. The recorded piano sound is present and almost analytical with the usual Dutch close, but not too close miking.

Most often and particularly in the suites Janssen´s playing is historically inspired with rhythmic articulation and agogic accents. I think he uses these accents rather discretely and well considered. His execution of ornaments is very brilliant and fluent, almost "harpsichord-like" and his added ornaments and passing notes in repetitions are most tastefully done. He also seems to "registrate" in the way that he maintains the sound level and character of a part of a suite from the outset and plays the repeat softer, as far as I can hear at least sometimes with the help of the una corda pedal. Sometimes it is the other way round. On the other hand the way in which he often merges chords into each other must indicate, that he also uses the sustaining pedal a lot. Particularly in fugues he tends to play more legato, and not seldom he plays a fugue subject in one long legato phrase, consequently maintaining this articulation during the entire fugue. In fugues he also uses dynamics rather freely, most often in the way that he plays sections with greater musical tension at a louder level. However the sound is always well-cared-for and usually marginally restrained.

The suites and the concerto manualiter arrangements are IMO the most sucessful parts of the set, but I tend to think, that I also prefer his WTC and Goldberg´s to any other piano version I have heard. Only the toccatas manualiter disappoint a bit, preferably because he does not play the recitative sections freely enough. In these stylus phantasticus style should be more prominent. On the other hand the chromatic fantasy and the Reinken arrangements and the two capriccio´s are rather imaginatively played. Janssens tempi are generally fast with an almost irresistible rhythmic drive and his dexterity compares easily to the greatest. His musical attitude is naturally expressive, unaffected and unpretentious - very Dutch and much to my taste. He does not convert me to a Bach-on-the-piano-man, but he demonstrates that Bach´s keyboard music even on piano may make much sense, when one takes historically informed performance practice into consideration. Fortunately his artistic choices are balanced, and he does not try to treat the piano like a harpsichord.

[Que]

Premont, very interesting and based on my own first impressions when sampling, I'm actually not that surprised.

I'm repeating the link to jpc (click picture) for those interested:


                     
Q