Charles Villiers Stanford

[Spotted Horses]

I was thinking the same thing about the finale of Brahms' Second Symphony.

I do think there is a pattern/trend of Brahms conducting that sells his vitality short. If people go too far down the "autumnal" road of interpretation, they can ignore some of the physicality that his music is full of.

Generally like my Brahms lyrical, if not autumnal (the main criteria for me is that the strings are not too dominant of the sonority) but even so there is no lack of "energy" to the extent to which I can define it.

[Spotted Horses]

This is the wrong thread, but if I had to define what is unique about Brahms, there are rarely primary colors in Brahms. If a passage seems "happy" there will be some tint of sadness in it, or if a passage seems "sad" I will find some sparkle around the edges. Just my impression, of course. That has no bearing on "energy."

[vers la flamme]

Just wanted to add that I also reject with utmost vehemence the notion that Brahms is in any way low energy.

[Roasted Swan]

Just wanted to add that I also reject with utmost vehemence the notion that Brahms is in any way low energy.

Lord Lance does choose his descriptions of composers with a certain disregard for fact! (cf the self-taught Elgar is "academic")

[vers la flamme]

Lord Lance does choose his descriptions of composers with a certain disregard for fact! (cf the self-taught Elgar is "academic")

In fairness to his lordship, it was Stanford to whom he applied that appellation; I believe it was the Maestro who placed Brahms on a similar thermodynamic level. As for Elgar, I'm sure I could think of several more fitting insults against his music than academic (maybe jingoistic if I were feeling especially uncharitable), though I choose to ignore them and love his music greatly. (I do also admire his autodidacticism.)

[Lisztianwagner]

I agree about Brahms, he could show a great variety of colours and nuances in his compositions, with thematic lines continuously transformed in his textures, but he didn't certainly lack energy. As well as Elgar could be everything but academic.

[Roasted Swan]

In fairness to his lordship, it was Stanford to whom he applied that appellation; I believe it was the Maestro who placed Brahms on a similar thermodynamic level. As for Elgar, I'm sure I could think of several more fitting insults against his music than academic (maybe jingoistic if I were feeling especially uncharitable), though I choose to ignore them and love his music greatly. (I do also admire his autodidacticism.)

Not so - here is his quote;

Quote from: lordlance on March 28, 2023, 03:58:09 AM
My experience with British composers so far:
1. Macmillan - Love The Confession of Isobel Gowdie
2. Parry - Symphony #5 seems worth a second listen
3. Maxwell Davies - a tough nut to crack and one I've not heard in a long time
4. Elgar - his symphonies are incredibly dull and academic; I do enjoy In The South and Cockaigne though

[Luke]

It's such an odd phrase, 'academic,' but especially when you compare it in his description of the self-taught Elgar vs its absence in his assessment of that famously significant teacher Parry. Parry's great but immeasurably more 'academic' than Elgar ever was.

Indeed, the fact he never 'went up' to London is maybe at the root of what makes Elgar stand out from his contemporaries - a man who has acquired the trappings of the knight and (significantly) 'married well,' but who underneath is still that complex, bruised, unconfident, self-taught working class lad from the provinces. The troubled soul who is picking music up from the air he breathes, not from acquired 'technique' - that is Elgar, and the 'exterior' swagger that comes along now and then is only one facet of the much more interesting art which lies beneath.

[vers la flamme]

Not so - here is his quote;

Quote from: lordlance on March 28, 2023, 03:58:09 AM
My experience with British composers so far:
1. Macmillan - Love The Confession of Isobel Gowdie
2. Parry - Symphony #5 seems worth a second listen
3. Maxwell Davies - a tough nut to crack and one I've not heard in a long time
4. Elgar - his symphonies are incredibly dull and academic; I do enjoy In The South and Cockaigne though

I meant to say that the appellation of "low energy" to Brahms was not Lance's. I did see the post you referenced where Lance was struggling with English composers.

[lordlance]

Dramatic misrepresentation of Debussy/Ravel there. Do I really need to spell out the hundreds of intoxicating reasons why?

Yes, Ravel can be intoxicating and luxurious, sure. Hence "atmospheric" is how I would describe it much like Bax but certainly not high energy. Not La valse I agree. That is fun. I am thinking of dreary pieces like Nocturnes, Images or Daphnis et Chloé that seem content to sound 'luxurious' and 'intoxicating' but by God do they need to get going. This isn't really a "critique" of Ravel/Debussy by the way. They aren't really intending to write music of the sort I like. It's just music preoccupied with how rich it can sound and I don't care for it.

But Brahms wrote a ton more music than the examples you mentioned. And keep Ravel out of this! It's rich and ecstatically luxurious music! Lose yourself in it...

I can only speak about the music that I hear (i.e. orchestral.) People can dissuade me of Stanford's music being "genial" by posting alternative suggestions. I have heard many of Raff's symphonies and his music too seemed to lack the violence and frenzy of a Beethoven or the passion of a Tchaikovsky.
_

My characterization of Elgar certainly ruffled a few feathers here and something I stand by. Regardless of whether he was self-taught or not, my use of the word "academic" was to indicate the dryness of the music much like that of Bach of which the symphonies are certainly an example of. Of course people may well find Bach's music to evoke emotions within them but to me his music is just endlessly busy and fatiguing after a few minutes.

[Luke]

Yes, Ravel can be intoxicating and luxurious, sure. Hence "atmospheric" is how I would describe it much like Bax but certainly not high energy. Not La valse I agree. That is fun. I am thinking of dreary pieces like Nocturnes, Images or Daphnis et Chloé that seem content to sound 'luxurious' and 'intoxicating' but by God do they need to get going. This isn't really a "critique" of Ravel/Debussy by the way. They aren't really intending to write music of the sort I like. It's just music preoccupied with how rich it can sound and I don't care for it.

But even narrowing down to those three pieces - Nocturnes/Images/Daphnis - it's still an inaccurate description. The Nocturnes are two slow pieces enclosing a fast one. Daphnis is shot through with orgiastic, energetic dances. And Iberia - the biggest, most ambitious of the Images - is a slow movement in between two highly eventful, colourful, exciting and energetic fast movements. The truth is Debussy specialised in these highly refined, sensuous and evanescent textures which you describe, but they are only one part of his pallete. Indeed, looking at his work as a whole, rather than just the orchestral pieces from his 'impressionist' years which you describe, those (glorious) hedonistic moments are put into even more perspective. Think of the late Sonatas, or the Etudes, for instance. Ravel, in the meantime, is a different composer entirely, with more bittersweet piquancy and demonic drive than Debussy. Though there are fabulous slow movements aplenty they are always balanced out by something bubbling over with fantastic energy. For every Le Gibet there is a Scarbo, for every La vallee des cloches there is an Alborado del Grazioso.

[Florestan]

the violence and frenzy of a Beethoven or the passion of a Tchaikovsky.

If violence, frenzy and passion is what you look for in music, then opera has it in spades, especially verismo. Tosca, Cavalleria rusticana, Pagliacci, I Zingari, I Gioielli della Madonna --- one can't get more violent, frenzied and impassioned than that, although Robert le Diable, Les Huguenots, Le Prophete and Carmen come quite close. Just saying. 

[DavidW]

my use of the word "academic" was to indicate the dryness of the music much like that of Bach of which the symphonies are certainly an example of. Of course people may well find Bach's music to evoke emotions within them but to me his music is just endlessly busy and fatiguing after a few minutes.

I think you certainly win an award for most unpopular opinions in a single post!

[Irons]

I think you certainly win an award for most unpopular opinions in a single post!

Maybe the plan.

[Roasted Swan]

A first listen (not yet complete) to this new Stanford disc;



Its a very good performance - lovely fresh voices singing with urgency and conviction.  Well recorded too by Hyperion.  I started off thinking "this is great" but as the music progresses my enduring question about Stanford came back to me again quite unbidden.  It IS a very attractive work, it IS well constructed etc etc....... but where are those moments of unique "no-one but Stanford could have written this...." to blow-the-listener-away that lift him out of the field of master-craftsman and into the world of unique visionary.  This is a good example - and I do NOT mean this insultingly - of Stanford being a good 2nd tier composer.

I'm preparing to duck as Albion loads up the first retaliatory salvo...........

[Albion]

A first listen (not yet complete) to this new Stanford disc;



Its a very good performance - lovely fresh voices singing with urgency and conviction.  Well recorded too by Hyperion.  I started off thinking "this is great" but as the music progresses my enduring question about Stanford came back to me again quite unbidden.  It IS a very attractive work, it IS well constructed etc etc....... but where are those moments of unique "no-one but Stanford could have written this...." to blow-the-listener-away that lift him out of the field of master-craftsman and into the world of unique visionary.  This is a good example - and I do NOT mean this insultingly - of Stanford being a good 2nd tier composer.

I'm preparing to duck as Albion loads up the first retaliatory salvo...........

 

It's Stanford in Italianate mode, which he adopted for all his large-scale Latin choral works (although for the Mass in G he took a lot from Dvorak to good effect). I think the Requiem is great stuff but not as splendid as the Stabat Mater. The problem when Stanford emulated Verdi (one of his idols) is that he often lost his individual voice which comes through stronger in the symphonies and Irish rhapsodies, also the secular choral music. Nevertheless it's great to have a new recording to supplement the Marco Polo/ Naxos. My copy is due to arrive whenever Royal Mail can find where I actually live, which always constitutes something of a minor miracle. What a bugger that the Cardiff concert (Te Deum and "Elegiac Ode") was cancelled due to something happening in London...

[Roasted Swan]

It's Stanford in Italianate mode, which he adopted for all his large-scale Latin choral works (although for the Mass in G he took a lot from Dvorak to good effect). I think the Requiem is great stuff but not as splendid as the Stabat Mater. The problem when Stanford emulated Verdi (one of his idols) is that he often lost his individual voice which comes through stronger in the symphonies and Irish rhapsodies, also the secular choral music. Nevertheless it's great to have a new recording to supplement the Marco Polo/ Naxos. My copy is due to arrive whenever Royal Mail can find where I actually live, which always constitutes something of a minor miracle. What a bugger that the Cardiff concert (Te Deum and "Elegiac Ode") was cancelled due to something happening in London...

The great vocal moment early on at "Lux" is stunning - and sounds great on this new version.  The chorus are youthful and fresh-voiced and clearly well trained.  If I could only have one performance this one would probably replace the Leaper/Marco Polo version - but its not an easy "better than" choice.  More a case that overall - bigger choir, better recorded etc - tips the scales.  But then again you'd loose the "Veiled Prophet" excerpts.  Leaper is about 6 minutes slower overall which I think some of the time works in his favour - a slightly weighter, reflective approach at points.  But interpretatively for me its nip and tuck.

[Albion]

The great vocal moment early on at "Lux" is stunning - and sounds great on this new version.  The chorus are youthful and fresh-voiced and clearly well trained.  If I could only have one performance this one would probably replace the Leaper/Marco Polo version - but its not an easy "better than" choice.  More a case that overall - bigger choir, better recorded etc - tips the scales.  But then again you'd loose the "Veiled Prophet" excerpts.  Leaper is about 6 minutes slower overall which I think some of the time works in his favour - a slightly weighter, reflective approach at points.  But interpretatively for me its nip and tuck.

Fully agreed, and the "Sanctus" is another great piece of writing. Quite why "Quam olim Abrahae" gets a bad press defeats me as it contributes to a well-rounded score with plenty of variety. For "The Veiled Prophet" you need the Wexford performance...

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/tw3hsz518ud79/Stanford+-+The+Veiled+Prophet

[Roasted Swan]

Listened straight through to this new Requiem twice.  The performance is absolutely top drawer.  Really really good university choir superbly prepared.  Brabbins characteristically well prepared too and draws excellent performances from all concerned.  Some genuinely lovely passages but I still cannot be convinced that Stanford is anything but a very good 2nd tier composer.  No disrespect in that intended - just everyone can't be a genius.  The fact that this work was the last Birmingham Triennial Comission before Gerontius says it all.  This is a well crafted work that often achieves passages of real beauty and power.  Gerontius is a work of genuine genius - with some pretty awful bits along the way.  Stanford may never be as banal as some parts of Gerontius but neither is he ever as inspired as other parts either........

[Luke]

No disrespect in that intended - just everyone can't be a genius.  Stanford may never be as banal as some parts of Gerontius but neither is he ever as inspired as other parts either........

I know this may come across as dreadfully clichéd, but in my experience it is also genuinely true - Stanford is exactly as you describe him, with the awesome and always-surprising exception of The Bluebird which is unlike anyone else and which sounds a hundred years before its time. It's an inexplicable work - where the hell did it come from?! - using an extraordinary harmonic technique which sets a tiny number of harmonies lapping against each other like the gentle, hardly moving water of the mirror-smooth blue lake in which is reflected the bird (in the solo soprano's monosyllable Blue). Those harmonies are like a crystal, viewed rapturously from every angle. Quite exceptional, it tells me that there must have been genius inside Stanford... but I'd love to find other works which show it (I have tried!)