GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: James on April 23, 2011, 09:20:22 AM

Title: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: James on April 23, 2011, 09:20:22 AM
Sylvius Leopold Weiss was the last great star in the story of the lute. He was not only the greatest player of the eighteenth century - possibly the greatest ever - but also the most gifted and prolific composer for the instrument, leaving behind him a remarkable corpus of around 650 exquisite pieces. Though he is relatively little-known today, in his lifetime Weiss was greatly revered by musicians and the aristocracy alike, and was ranked with outstanding contemporaries like Bach, Handel and Scarlatti.

Born in Breslau (now Wroclaw, Poland), Weiss was introduced to music by his lutenist father and gained his first position as a performer in 1706. From 1708 to 1714 he worked in Rome in the service of Prince Alexandre Sobieski, learning a great deal about Italian music and almost certainly meeting Alessandro and Domenico Scarlatti. When his employer died in 1714, Weiss headed north again, visiting Prague, London and various other cities before landing the prestigious post of chamber musician in the court of Dresden in 1718. He remained based there for the rest of his life, though made numerous trips to other cities, building a widespread reputation as a matchless performer, improviser and composer on both the lute and theorbo (a large cousin of the lute, often used for orchestral playing).

In 1728 he visited Berlin, impressing the future king Frederick the Great and giving lessons to Frederick's lutenist sister. She was greatly impressed, writing in her memoirs that Weiss "has never had an equal, and those who come after him will only have the glory of imitating him". In 1739 he met J.S. Bach in Leipzig, though it is probable that these two masters were acquainted already. Some of Bach's lute works are said have been written for Weiss, and Bach transcribed one of Weiss's lute pieces for harpsichord and violin. According to one commentator the two masters even engaged in a competition, performing and improvising fugues and fantasies - Bach on the keyboard, Weiss on the lute.

Weiss's time at Dresden must have been relatively comfortable. By 1744 he was the highest-paid instrumentalist in the court, and he was also a much sought-after teacher, with lutenists flocking from far and wide to try and master the famous "Weissian method". His life wasn't without upsets, however: in 1722 an enraged French violinist bit Weiss's thumb so hard that is was almost severed, making playing impossible for much of that year, and in 1738 he was arrested and imprisoned for "offensive" behaviour towards a senior court functionary. He was also released only when the music-loving Count Keyserling, commissioner of Bach's Goldberg Variations, stepped in with a character reference.

In the second half of the eighteenth century the lute disappeared from the European musical scene and Weiss's work, written down in a format that was incomprehensible until relatively recently, remained ignored from the time of his death until the late twentieth century. The 1980s and 1990s saw an increased interest in his music, but as it's written entirely for an archaic instrument it seems unlikely that Weiss will ever receive his due as one of the most significant composers of Baroque Germany.

WORKS FOR LUTE
Apart from the accompaniments of a handful of lost ensemble works, Weiss's surviving output consists of entirely of pieces for solo lute. Like Bach in his instrumental music, Weiss combined elements of French and Italian styles, but the approaches of the two composers are markedly different. Weiss's pieces tend to be more rhapsodic and lyrical than Bach's, and less contrapuntally dense. His style is highly recognizable, making frequent use of unusual harmonic progressions and daring modulations, and integrating melodic passages, arpeggiated figures and subtle counterpoint to great effect.

The majority of Weiss's pieces are sonatas, written in the form of the suite. Most have six movements, and feature a sombre allemande, sprightly courante and a lyrical sarabande. The early sonatas are generally bright in spirit and possess a virtuosic flair, while later examples are characterized by emotional gravity and lengthy developmental movements. Weiss also wrote many single-movement works, the most famous of which is the Tombeau sur al mort de M. Comte de Logy. Written as a tribute to a count who was one of the best lutenists of his time (and an influence on the young Weiss), the Tombeau is a stately and profoundly melancholic work, full of funeral march motifs and sombre melodies.

[asin]B000038I7U[/asin]
Featuring 3 sonatas, each from a different period, the third volume in Naxo's Weiss survey makes an ideal introduction to the composer. The 35-minute Sonata in D minor is especially impressive, encompassing an enormous range of musical ideas. Barto's performances are natural, fresh and idiomatic throughout, his subtle rubato and sensitive dynamics ideally suite to Weiss's music.

[asin]B00000399A[/asin]
Released in 1992, this lute recital disc from Nigel North features compelling, subtly expressive accounts of the Tombeau and one of the best Weiss sonatas. With such outstanding playing, and impressive accounts of Bach's D minor Chaconne and transcriptions of Vivaldi concertos, this would be a great place to start for lute music in general.
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: canninator on April 23, 2011, 09:44:07 AM
Nice to see a thread on Weiss. My own pet theory, for which I have absolutely no evidence, is that Bach (even though he owned a lute) didn't write more extensively for the instrument because of Weiss.

I saw Nigel North do an all Weiss program recently. It was okay but he only played the easy stuff and even then some parts ran away from him (you could see it on his face in the D minor prelude [I think it was]). His latest recording, The Heart Trembles with Pleasure, is all Weiss but is all pre-Dresden manuscript material and not nearly as challenging or interesting as the material in the Dresden manuscript. Still, it got good reviews, but I don't rate it much.

The absolute top draw Weiss CD that should be in any music lovers library is this beauty.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513EX843NSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This is played on a 1590 (restored) lute with original soundboard. The tone is out of this world and the playing is magnificent. This is what a lute should sound like, not that tinny twang you hear so often (cough, O'Dette).

Anyway, a new edition of Weiss transcriptions for guitar is coming out soon with some of the big sonatas, the first time they have been published as transcriptions for guitar, so hopefully his work will see new life in the guitar community.
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 24, 2011, 01:40:19 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on April 23, 2011, 09:44:07 AM
Nice to see a thread on Weiss. My own pet theory, for which I have absolutely no evidence, is that Bach (even though he owned a lute) didn't write more extensively for the instrument because of Weiss.

Most likely, he just didn't want to enter in competition with a personal friend, particularly considering the BWV 997 suite in c is greater then anything Weiss ever wrote (that i have found so far). Besides, there was nobody else BUT Weiss to write lute music for. I can see why that would have been an awkward situation.

Either way, Weiss is the greatest lutenist that ever lived, at least as far as i'm concerned, and at the moment my favored composer of classical guitar music. I have the complete London Manuscript performed by Micheal Cardin (which includes 26 suites, 35 individual pieces and 6 concertos) and i'm waiting for somebody to record the Dresden Manuscript, which was compiled later in his life and wisdom dictates it might be even greater.
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: canninator on April 24, 2011, 02:31:00 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 24, 2011, 01:40:19 AM
Most likely, he just didn't want to enter in competition with a personal friend, particularly considering the BWV 997 suite in c is greater then anything Weiss ever wrote (that i have found so far). Besides, there was nobody else BUT Weiss to write lute music for. I can see why that would have been an awkward situation.

It's an interesting idea, I guess we'll never know. There will have been other lutenists around but I don't know Bach's exposure to them. Count Losy was purported to be pretty good and was known to Weiss (but probably not Bach), well enough that Weiss dedicated a Tombeau to him on his death. Johann Kropfgans, whose music is heavily Weiss influenced, is purported to have been known to Bach.

Interestingly, for BWV 997, there is no monograph to suggest it was written for lute. In the earliest version known, prepared by a Bach student, C.P.E. later added a front page "For Klavier"!
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 01, 2014, 01:03:33 AM
I love the music of Weiss and have done so for over 25 years, since first buying the Naxos Weiss disk played by Franklin Lei (this was before the Robert Barto series).

I like him so much that my wife and I even called our first son after him (Sylvius).

The two qualities that stand out for me are:
1. He has the most amazing sense for noble and beautiful melodies, all the more amazing when you remember he is writing for a plucked instrument incapable of legato. When I listen to familiar sonata of his often my spine tingles and my eye fill with tears when one of his great melodies for one of his allemandes begins to unwind. His melodic gift is demonstrated whatever the mood, and paradoxically he appear most noble and great hearted in his writing when he is most melancholy in mood.
2. He shares with Bach the ability to unify a baroque suite in some mysterious way. When you consider that baroque composers had to work with five or six quite disparate movement types, and were not able, as romantic artists were, to unify their works by dramatic use of tonality, or obvious thematic references, this ability is even more remarkable. Weiss has an unerring sense in his music of exactly when to end a movement, the end is never predictable, but once it occurs, it seems absolutely right, and his movements are never too long.

All the great lutenists have had a go at Weiss, and I pretty much like all of them, except where the music is obviously too difficult for them (shhh, no names).

However, amongst my favourite interpreters is Michel Cardin, who began an ambitious attempt to record all the suites from the Dresden MS. I think he made 12 disks before the project ended and recently some of these have been uploaded to You Tube, so you can have a listen (I think the disks are unavailable now).
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Leo K. on February 05, 2014, 02:16:29 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 01, 2014, 01:03:33 AM
I love the music of Weiss and have done so for over 25 years, since first buying the Naxos Weiss disk played by Franklin Lei (this was before the Robert Barto series).

I like him so much that my wife and I even called our first son after him (Sylvius).

The two qualities that stand out for me are:
1. He has the most amazing sense for noble and beautiful melodies, all the more amazing when you remember he is writing for a plucked instrument incapable of legato. When I listen to familiar sonata of his often my spine tingles and my eye fill with tears when one of his great melodies for one of his allemandes begins to unwind. His melodic gift is demonstrated whatever the mood, and paradoxically he appear most noble and great hearted in his writing when he is most melancholy in mood.
2. He shares with Bach the ability to unify a baroque suite in some mysterious way. When you consider that baroque composers had to work with five or six quite disparate movement types, and were not able, as romantic artists were, to unify their works by dramatic use of tonality, or obvious thematic references, this ability is even more remarkable. Weiss has an unerring sense in his music of exactly when to end a movement, the end is never predictable, but once it occurs, it seems absolutely right, and his movements are never too long.

All the great lutenists have had a go at Weiss, and I pretty much like all of them, except where the music is obviously too difficult for them (shhh, no names).

However, amongst my favourite interpreters is Michel Cardin, who began an ambitious attempt to record all the suites from the Dresden MS. I think he made 12 disks before the project ended and recently some of these have been uploaded to You Tube, so you can have a listen (I think the disks are unavailable now).

A wonderful post, and I totally agree. Michel Cardin's set is my favorite too.
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Que on February 05, 2014, 10:26:23 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 05, 2014, 02:16:29 PM
A wonderful post, and I totally agree. Michel Cardin's set is my favorite too.

Wow, same here!  :) :) Although, set, I have unfortunately only one disc...

But when will the series be reissued? Should I email Brilliant? ::)

Q
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Moonfish on April 19, 2014, 07:28:19 PM
Quote from: Que on February 05, 2014, 10:26:23 PM
Wow, same here!  :) :) Although, set, I have unfortunately only one disc...

But when will the series be reissued? Should I email Brilliant? ::)

Q

Please do!    :)
The more Weiss the better!!

Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Ken B on April 19, 2014, 09:38:22 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on April 19, 2014, 07:28:19 PM
Please do!    :)
The more Weiss the better!!
You should also check out Kapsberger. I am assuming you have all of Dowland.
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Moonfish on April 19, 2014, 09:46:45 PM
Quote from: Ken B on April 19, 2014, 09:38:22 PM
You should also check out Kapsberger. I am assuming you have all of Dowland.

How did you know!!?   ::)   Kapsberger is indeed wonderful, but I do not have too many recordings with his music. My favorite is one with Paul O'Dette. Do you happen to have any Kapsberger you could recommend?

[asin] B0000007CI[/asin]
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Ken B on April 19, 2014, 09:56:55 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on April 19, 2014, 09:46:45 PM
How did you know!!?   ::)   Kapsberger is indeed wonderful, but I do not have too many recordings with his music. My favorite is one with Paul O'Dette. Do you happen to have any Kapsberger you could recommend?

[asin] B0000007CI[/asin]
Yes.

>:D





O'Dette. That's the only full CD I have. Otherwise a stray bit here or there.
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Que on April 19, 2014, 11:19:43 PM
Quote from: Ken B on April 19, 2014, 09:56:55 PM
Yes.

>:D

O'Dette. That's the only full CD I have. Otherwise a stray bit here or there.

Me too. But it is a great disc. Every time Weiss comes up, I can't get the Michel Cardin recording out of my head.
Michel Cardin has a new website (http://www.michelcardin.com/en/home-2/) on which he offers the whole set for $Ca 160..... Which is about €105 - single discs go for almost half that price elsewhere.I am tempted...this might be one of those special occassions to bend the rules.  ::) Have to check however if these are not in CD-R format.

Kapsberger. I have only the disc by O'Dette, which is superb. I have this set:

[asin]B002HNA94K[/asin]

Q
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Moonfish on April 20, 2014, 11:13:45 AM
Quote from: Que on April 19, 2014, 11:19:43 PM
Me too. But it is a great disc. Every time Weiss comes up, I can't get the Michel Cardin recording out of my head.
Michel Cardin has a new website (http://www.michelcardin.com/en/home-2/) in which he offers the whole set for $Ca 160..... Which is about €105 - single discs go for almost half that price elsewhere.I am tempted...this might be one of those special occassions to bend the rules.  ::) Have to check however if these are not in CD-R format.

Kapsberger. I have only the disc by O'Dette, which is superb. I have this set:

[asin]B002HNA94K[/asin]

Q



Q

Had no idea about Cardin's site and that he sells his cds there. Hmm. A bit expensive with Can $160 plus $25 for shipping, but it is definitely cheaper than individual cds in the MP.  I wish (like you suggested) that Brilliant Classics would pick them up and bring back Weiss' amazing music. Perhaps they are waiting for the Barto phase to pass?   

Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Moonfish on April 21, 2014, 04:53:48 PM
Quote from: James on April 21, 2014, 03:32:03 AM
I'm patiently waiting for the Naxos Barto box. Fingers crossed.

Yes, that would be a golden egg. Perhaps they are intending to continue the series although it has been a while (2 yrs) at this point in time. One day....
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Que on April 21, 2014, 09:47:48 PM
Quote from: Ken B on April 21, 2014, 11:07:16 AM
Is that Weiss?

Here is Sylvius Leopold Weiss:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Sylvius_Leopold_Wei%C3%9F.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: PaulSC on April 22, 2014, 09:57:09 AM
(http://www.metal-archives.com/images/8/4/84_photo.jpg?4054)
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Moonfish on January 30, 2015, 05:29:46 PM
*bump*

(in the light of the recent release of Cardin's recordings [Weiss: The Complete London Manuscript]...)

[asin] B00QG15MQO[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61opugffC8L.jpg)

Booklet (http://www.brilliantclassics.com/media/965237/95070-Weiss-COMPLETE-Liner-notes-Download.pdf)

http://www.michelcardin.com/en/home-2/ (http://www.michelcardin.com/en/home-2/)
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Moonfish on June 07, 2018, 10:53:15 PM
Ah, I see I was the last poster on this thread. No love for Weiss? Three years!!!  :'( :'( :'( :'(

His works for lute are amazing!   Baroque in all its glory (at least from the perspective of a lute)!!

Does anybody know what is going on with Robert Barto? He was recording a series for Naxos and the last volume was issued in 2012 (volume 11).  Has he simply stopped recording? I cannot find anything linked to him more recent than 2012.
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 12, 2020, 11:04:36 PM
Wolfgang Rübsam has recorded some of the Lute Suites on a lute-harpsichord.

https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/weiss

WARNING: do not listen to this music, if you do you will believe you have gone to heaven and will be dissatisfied with all earthly things thereafter.
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: 71 dB on June 13, 2020, 04:55:16 AM
I was briefly into Weiss 20 years ago when Naxos started to release the Lute Sonatas. I bought the first 5 volumes at which point my interest kind of faded away. I felt like I had bought the same disc 5 times. Weiss is rather "monotonic". Hear one Sonata and you have heard them all.  ;D I am not a Lute (or Guitar) nut so one CD would have been enough for me... ...good lute stuff but how much do I need?
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: MusicTurner on June 19, 2022, 01:33:18 AM
This composer has been one of the few, real discoveries for me in recent times. Have been able to expand a very modest lute- and guitar collection a good deal, due to some inexpensive purchases of CD piles, and the expressiveness and range of his many lute works is really surprising, making one appreciate the lute genre more. He's now a favourite lute composer, replacing Dowland (which was based on even more limited knowledge). I may have been lucky as regards the recordings bumped into (Barto, the sonatas vol.1-7/naxos; Hopkinson Smith, 2 suites-sonatas, tombeau etc./emi reflexe, and a bit more), but I can see myself collecting further CDs, when finding some interesting stuff, including maybe the Brilliant box of the London Manuscript with Cardin, if found on offer.

BTW, there's a Chandos disc with concertante works too, not yet in my collection, where the performances apparently tend to be charming, but perhaps-perhaps also less varied and substantial, than they could be: https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%200707

Besides Weiss and, further down the list, Dowland, Joachim Bernhard Hagen, Robert Johnson and Kapsberger are also among the most appealing lute composers, IMHO.


Quote from: Moonfish on June 07, 2018, 10:53:15 PM
(...)

Does anybody know what is going on with Robert Barto? He was recording a series for Naxos and the last volume was issued in 2012 (volume 11).  Has he simply stopped recording? I cannot find anything linked to him more recent than 2012.

I checked Robert Barto and he's surely still active, but I don't think vol.11 has been supplemented with further releases; it's not a complete recorded set of the sonatas, since there are about 100 of them.
https://lutesocietyofamerica.org/events/lute-fest-2022/lutefest-2022-faculty/

Some general Weiss info:
https://www.slweiss.de/index.php?lang=eng

An attempted discography there:
https://www.slweiss.de/index.php?id=4&type=liste&lang=eng
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Klaze on June 19, 2022, 11:22:53 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on June 19, 2022, 01:33:18 AM-snip-
I have the Cardin box on Brilliant (it is really very nice as some older posts mentioned, so I would definitely try to acquire it) and Lindberg discs on BIS. Fully agree with your assessment of Weiss, though I can only listen to this stuff in limited doses, but that goes for all lute and guitar music.  And I say this as someone who plays the classical guitar on a daily basis and (in my own amateurish ways) play some Weiss transcriptions for the modern guitar... In fact, I probably play more Weiss than listen to him. For example this popular passacaglia is very satisfying to play on the guitar (sorry for the sound and shirt but I like this version quite a bit): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syx96LraAlQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syx96LraAlQ)

Never looked into ensemble/concertante works so I'm curious about that Chandos disc you mentioned :)

Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 19, 2022, 03:29:25 PM
With Weiss the lower numbered sonatas are the ones that have been known for a long time, eg The London MS which is what Cardin has recorded. The higher numbered sonatas are ones that have only been published recently in scholarly editions (from various MS sources) and so have had less time to be discovered and played by recitalists.
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 01, 2023, 12:41:15 AM
Talking of Cardin's recording of the London MS, I was going through it today and realised that the numbers 1-26 don't correspond to the SW numbers. So I made this little concordance which might be helpful:

Cardin London MS recording numbers/SW numbers   
   
1   1
2   2
3   3
4   33
5   5
6   10
7   11
8   12
9   13
10   15
11   16
12   17
13   18
14   19
15   21
16   22
17   23
18   24
19   25
20   26
21   27
22   28
23   29
24   30
25   31
26   32
   
Lute/Flute Duos   
1   6
2   8
3   9
4   14
5   20
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 02, 2023, 01:41:53 PM
Sorry to keep posting but I'm on a Weiss roll at the moment.

I came across this very nice disk:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM5MzgyMy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2ODUwODc3Mzh9)

Beautifully played, well-recorded, and the first recordings of Sonatas 88, 89 and 91.  ;)
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 01, 2024, 04:23:17 PM
Still on my Weiss roll.

I came across a recording of Weiss sonatas played by Michael Freimuth on Youtube. Unfortunately when I try to link to it it says 'Video unavailable' here, but it is there. Search 'Weiss Michael Freimuth' and all 24 tracks are there and there is a playlist.

It was a 2008 disk that is now OOP, but beautifully played and the only recording (AFAIK) of Sonatas 82, 76, 75 and 87.

I've been through all the disks of Weiss's music listed on Discogs and I reckon that 77/109 of Weiss's Sonatas have been recorded, about 70%. This is not bad for a composer that basically almost no one has ever heard of, and I think it underlines how much the lute-playing community values his works. As I said before I find his music of a quality that that is only encountered amongst the greatest composers, and even amongst them his music holds up. He can evoke more easily than any other composer I can think of a state of being outside of time... you begin listening and everything else stops.
Title: Re: Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1686-1750)
Post by: Brian on January 01, 2024, 05:46:29 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 01, 2024, 04:23:17 PMI've been through all the disks of Weiss's music listed on Discogs and I reckon that 77/109 of Weiss's Sonatas have been recorded, about 70%. This is not bad for a composer that basically almost no one has ever heard of, and I think it underlines how much the lute-playing community values his works. As I said before I find his music of a quality that that is only encountered amongst the greatest composers, and even amongst them his music holds up. He can evoke more easily than any other composer I can think of a state of being outside of time... you begin listening and everything else stops.

Agreed about that view. His music captures the very best ethereal, delicate, timeless qualities of the lute itself. I often wonder what happened to the Robert Barto series on Naxos, which has not been updated with a new album since 2012.