GMG Classical Music Forum

http://www.personalitypage.com/high-level.html

Don't worry. Not another stupid quiz. Which personality type are you? There's 16 "types".
Mine:

QuoteINTP

Logical, original, creative thinkers. Can become very excited about theories and ideas. Exceptionally capable and driven to turn theories into clear understandings. Highly value knowledge, competence and logic. Quiet and reserved, hard to get to know well. Individualistic, having no interest in leading or following others.

it could say more, but everything there is perfect 0:) 0:) 0:)

I'd actually took the 'real' version.

I'm an INTJ.

Quote from: Philoctetes on July 22, 2008, 07:25:09 PM
I'd actually took the 'real' version.

I'm an INTJ.

well, i supposed we're "related", just one letter off.  8)

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on July 22, 2008, 07:37:35 PM
well, i supposed we're "related", just one letter off.  8)

I maxed out the J porition of the test, apparently.

I'm a combination of an INFP and an INTP, an ISFP and an ENFP...

I'm unique.  8)  ;D  :D

I'm probably quite on the INFP side with some parts of INFJ + a lot of other things in the mix :).

I'll stay an RENF, thank you. 8)


Though Jung's system is always like a familiar acquaintance, every time I encounter it; with or without the arbitrary interpretations tacked on.

(And I realise I'm criticising a (semi-)recognised (semi-)academic (semi-)psychological test, but that's just how great my faith in Jung is. ;)

Jung's system wasn't a checklist, thank the archetypical heavens!)

Quote from: Renfield on July 23, 2008, 12:51:34 AM
I'll stay an RENF, thank you. 8)

Doh! You even made me go back and look for that abbreviation! ;D

They don't seem to have the passive/aggressive option.

INTP here.

Jung was a mystic fool, but I'm sure this test measures something consistently.

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on July 22, 2008, 07:24:43 PM
http://www.personalitypage.com/high-level.html

Don't worry. Not another stupid quiz. Which personality type are you? There's 16 "types".
Mine:
it could say more, but everything there is perfect 0:) 0:) 0:)

There's a one word condensation of those attributes. It's NERD.

So which one best describes you, Iago?

I guess I pretty much fit into the ISFP (The Artist) group:

They have a strong aesthetic appreciation for art, and are likely to be artists in some form, because they are unusually gifted at creating and composing things which will strongly affect the senses.

ISFPs tend to be quiet and reserved, and difficult to get to know well. They hold back their ideas and opinions except from those who they are closest to. They are likely to be kind, gentle and sensitive in their dealings with others.

ISFPs have a strong affinity for aesthetics and beauty. They're likely to be animal lovers, and to have a true appreciation for the beauties of nature. They're original and independent, and need to have personal space.

The ISFP is likely to not give themself enough credit for the things which they do extremely well. Their strong value systems can lead them to be intensely perfectionist, and cause them to judge themselves with unneccesary harshness.

8)

Quote from: JCampbell on July 23, 2008, 09:09:27 PM
So which one best describes you, Iago?

For me to know and for you to find out.
Obviously you fall into the same nerdish categories as greg.

Quote from: eyeresist on July 23, 2008, 07:28:09 PM
INTP here.

Jung was a mystic fool, but I'm sure this test measures something consistently.

The point is, however, that this is not the "mystic fool's" test. It's the test of someone who semi-arbitrarily adapted "the mystic fool's" system to suit practical needs: namely the categorisation of the population into subgroups, towards judging their suitability for various tasks.

Without even beginning to comment on how out of order that is, it is far from something Jung himself would do, or the reason Jung came up with the concept of psychological types non-exclusive to each other (in actuality) altogether!

The mystic fool, mystic as he was, did not intend his analytical psychology as a more elaborate yardstick. ;)

Quote from: JCampbell on July 23, 2008, 09:09:27 PM
So which one best describes you, Iago?

My guess would be COAI.  Crusty on the outside, airy on the inside.

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 24, 2008, 04:18:52 AM
My guess would be COAI.  Crusty on the outside, airy on the inside.

Or simply IAGO. Insufferable Antipathetic Grinning Ogre.

Quote from: Iago on July 23, 2008, 08:48:00 PM
There's a one word condensation of those attributes. It's NERD.

Somewhat. I've been called a "smarty pants" recently by someone but I can't ever remember being called a "nerd".
I have the intellectual curiosity without all the awkwardness of what it really means to be a true nerd......

As for you, you seem to lack any curiosity at all, you're about as useful and interesting as a decayed fart.

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on July 24, 2008, 06:44:30 AM
As for you, you seem to lack any curiosity at all, you're about as useful and interesting as a decayed fart.

I object! Decayed farts can give a hint as to what a person has recently eaten. Hardly fair to bring them down another level, don't you think?

BAH! >:D

Quote from: JCampbell on July 24, 2008, 06:46:57 AM
I object! Decayed farts can give a hint as to what a person has recently eaten. Hardly fair to bring them down another level, don't you think?

but how do you tell?  ???
is this done in a lab? is this what you do in your lab at school?  ;D

I'm a STFU.

ISFJ

I also took the real test for this many years ago. I see the results haven't changed... :)

8)

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on July 24, 2008, 06:53:14 AM
but how do you tell?  ???
is this done in a lab? is this what you do in your lab at school?  ;D

No...but if you notice your eyes burning around certain individuals, it's a good bet they've been eating Thai! ;D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2008, 07:37:53 AM
ISFJ

I also took the real test for this many years ago. I see the results haven't changed... :)

8)

Is the real test on the same web page?

Quote from: JCampbell on July 24, 2008, 07:57:11 AM
Is the real test on the same web page?

I didn't see it there. I took it in a management course at work. This is a well-known thing (the 16 Types). I would well imagine that you can find the test online if you Google it a bit.

8)

Quote from: JCampbell on July 24, 2008, 07:57:11 AM
Is the real test on the same web page?

I've never seen the full test online. It is fairly lengthy.

Yea...some 'version' of the test I found asked 4 questions and then determined it from that. Seems like I got short-changed.

Quote from: JCampbell on July 24, 2008, 06:14:31 PM
Yea...some 'version' of the test I found asked 4 questions and then determined it from that. Seems like I got short-changed.

Indeed you did. IIRC (and it's been 20 years), the test was 12-15 pages long. Probably one of the best of its ilk I ever took though. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Hausmusik - Bia 298 Op 29 Quintet in C for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Quote from: Apollo on July 24, 2008, 06:56:51 AM
I'm a STFU.

lol


There's something acutely ironic about accusing people of being nerds on a classical music forum.

Quote from: eyeresist on July 24, 2008, 07:19:31 PM
lThere's something acutely ironic about accusing people of being nerds on a classical music forum.

I am savouring the irony with you.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2008, 07:37:53 AM
ISFJ

ISTJ, according to one (rather brief) test I randomly took among those available on the internet.

Introverted (I) 73.33% Extroverted (E) 26.67%
Sensing (S) 57.58% Intuitive (N) 42.42%
Thinking (T) 58.62% Feeling (F) 41.38%
Judging (J) 54.76% Perceiving (P) 45.24%

There needs to be some delving into what some of these terms mean. There are academic categorisations here that have slid into common usage and the meanings have become distorted. An example is 'introvert', here is a quote on the definition; I was thinking of explaining it myself, but Googled and this one looks fine to me.

Definition: "Contrary to what most people think, an introvert is not simply a person who is shy. In fact, being shy has little to do with being an introvert! Shyness has an element of apprehension, nervousness and anxiety, and while an introvert may also be shy, introversion itself is not shyness. Basically, an introvert is a person who is energized by being alone and whose energy is drained by being around other people.

Introverts are more concerned with the inner world of the mind. They enjoy thinking, exploring their thoughts and feelings. They often avoid social situations because being around people drains their energy. This is true even if they have good social skills. After being with people for any length of time, such as at a party, they need time alone to "recharge."

"When introverts want to be alone, it is not, by itself, a sign of depression. It means that they either need to regain their energy from being around people or that they simply want the time to be with their own thoughts. Being with people, even people they like and are comfortable with, can prevent them from their desire to be quietly introspective.

Being introspective, though, does not mean that an introvert never has conversations. However, those conversations are generally about ideas and concepts, not about what they consider the trivial matters of social small talk.

Introverts make up about 60% of the gifted population but only about 25-40% of the general population."

From this source.

http://giftedkids.about.com/od/glossary/g/introvert.htm

'Extrovert' is also used in common parlance in an incorrect or at least altered way from that envisaged when the term was coined.

Mike

I will suppress blood-curdling screams and assorted vocalisations of indignation, and suggest that anyone seriously interested in the terms in this test and their interpretation, in fact their original purpose, prior to appropriation towards the war effort for kitchen-table psychometry, refer themselves to Jung's work. Unless they're interested in the "Judging/Perceiving" business, which was just tacked on.

It is veritably a travesty how a theory of personality has become a quantitative theory of classification, I'll say it again.  >:(


(And I'll now stop harassing this thread; so to speak, as I don't think threads can be harassed. :P)

Apart from specifying Jung, I thought that was pretty much my point; though made sitting down. Despite the hijacking of these terms, I have seen how such as Myers Briggs can help people understand and to allow colleagues to function in varied teams. The danger I always preached about was pigeonholing people with their definition to the extent the categorisation straitjacketed them. Managers and colleagues needed to see the descriptors as tendencies, not the 10 commandments. People could learn to work successfully out of their comfort zone.

Apollo....here is a system I had not known about: 'The Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory'. Want to fess up?

Mike

Quote from: knight on July 25, 2008, 09:13:50 AM
Apart from specifying Jung, I thought that was pretty much my point; though made sitting down. Despite the hijacking of these terms, I have seen how such as Myers Briggs can help people understand and to allow colleagues to function in varied teams. The danger I always preached about was pigeonholing people with their definition to the extent the categorisation straitjacketed them. Managers and colleagues needed to see the descriptors as tendencies, not the 10 commandments. People could learn to work successfully out of their comfort zone.

Apollo....here is a system I had not known about: 'The Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory'. Want to fess up?

Mike

I've taken the MMPI. Now that's a long test, at the very least, it will take 2 hours to complete, and that is if you are flying through it.

Yes, I used to argue with the facilitators I encountered who did not themselves understand what they were delivering beyond their speaker's notes. That was on the basis of a computerised test that took about an hour to complete. All they really wanted was headlines with which to label people. I regarded it as a lazy way of trying to help people understand themselves. But when delivered well, it had a positive and lasting impact.

Mike

Quote from: Wanderer on July 24, 2008, 11:49:12 PM
ISTJ, according to one (rather brief) test I randomly took among those available on the internet.

Introverted (I) 73.33% Extroverted (E) 26.67%
Sensing (S) 57.58% Intuitive (N) 42.42%
Thinking (T) 58.62% Feeling (F) 41.38%
Judging (J) 54.76% Perceiving (P) 45.24%

Based on the test results of the above linked test, I'm an ISFJ (The Nurturer)

Introverted (I) 100%, Extroverted (E) 0%   :o
Sensing (S) 53%, Intuitive (N) 47%
Thinking (T) 17%, Feeling (F) 83%
Judging (J) 59%, Perceiving (P) 41%

Quote from: JCampbell on July 24, 2008, 07:55:05 AM
No...but if you notice your eyes burning around certain individuals, it's a good bet they've been eating Thai! ;D

:-X

Quote from: knight on July 25, 2008, 06:40:58 AM
There needs to be some delving into what some of these terms mean. There are academic categorisations here that have slid into common usage and the meanings have become distorted. An example is 'introvert', here is a quote on the definition; I was thinking of explaining it myself, but Googled and this one looks fine to me.

Definition: "Contrary to what most people think, an introvert is not simply a person who is shy. In fact, being shy has little to do with being an introvert! Shyness has an element of apprehension, nervousness and anxiety, and while an introvert may also be shy, introversion itself is not shyness. Basically, an introvert is a person who is energized by being alone and whose energy is drained by being around other people.

Introverts are more concerned with the inner world of the mind. They enjoy thinking, exploring their thoughts and feelings. They often avoid social situations because being around people drains their energy. This is true even if they have good social skills. After being with people for any length of time, such as at a party, they need time alone to "recharge."

"When introverts want to be alone, it is not, by itself, a sign of depression. It means that they either need to regain their energy from being around people or that they simply want the time to be with their own thoughts. Being with people, even people they like and are comfortable with, can prevent them from their desire to be quietly introspective.

Being introspective, though, does not mean that an introvert never has conversations. However, those conversations are generally about ideas and concepts, not about what they consider the trivial matters of social small talk.

Introverts make up about 60% of the gifted population but only about 25-40% of the general population."

From this source.

http://giftedkids.about.com/od/glossary/g/introvert.htm

'Extrovert' is also used in common parlance in an incorrect or at least altered way from that envisaged when the term was coined.

Mike

That is PERFECT!  8)
If only everybody could read this, then they'd understand me very very well (btw, i was in gifted class in school before so that percentage makes sense)....
Normally, I'm extremely quiet and avoid talking to people, since everyday saying hi and having to answer the same stupid question "how are you?" is so monotonous it makes me sick. Who cares how i am, is that really important information? Is it interesting? No. And I don't care how people are, unless they're dying or something. I can think of little comments and stuff to say, but usually it's stupid so I don't even feel like saying it.

Now, a good conversation is like something last night- me and my possible future band manager were talking about Family Guy and South Park, and also music, since he said he listened to the Shostakovich i had on my myspace page. Especially when I got to mention how funny i thought the Kool-Aid man jumping through the courtroom saying "oh, yeah....."  was.

People who have to mention that they are special, generally aren't.

Quote from: Philoctetes on July 25, 2008, 09:43:09 AM
People who have to mention that they are special, generally aren't.

Bravo!!!

Quote from: Philoctetes on July 25, 2008, 09:43:09 AM
People who have to mention that they are special, generally aren't.

Is this some reverse-psychology in action? ¬_____¬

Quote from: Lethe on July 25, 2008, 09:58:44 AM
Is this some reverse-psychology in action? ¬_____¬

More flat aside.

Quote from: Philoctetes on July 25, 2008, 09:43:09 AM
People who have to mention that they are special, generally aren't.

Wagner proves you wrong.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on July 25, 2008, 10:05:11 AM
Wagner proves you wrong.

He did say "generally"...... which is more or less so, since there's also Saul out there.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on July 25, 2008, 10:05:11 AM
Wagner proves you wrong.

Ummm, no.  ::)

8)

Gurn, With Global Warming and the increased pressure on natural resources an'all, you sure take up a lotta space with two words.

Mike

Quote from: knight on July 25, 2008, 10:22:32 AM
Gurn, With Global Warming and the increased pressure on natural resources an'all, you sure take up a lotta space with two words.

Mike

I assume you mean in import... :)  Merci, mon ami.

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2008, 10:19:57 AM
Ummm, no.  ::)

8)

Sorry, yes.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2008, 10:19:57 AM
Ummm, no.  ::)

8)

I suppose he could be considered a good composer.

Quote from: Philoctetes on July 25, 2008, 10:27:13 AM
I suppose he could be considered a good composer.

Oh, backing off now, eh?   :P

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2008, 10:33:11 AM
Oh, backing off now, eh?   :P

8)

Just saying that semantically; I could potentially get stretched that far.

I'm special, but only in the euphemistic sense.

Quote from: knight on July 25, 2008, 09:21:03 AM
All they really wanted was headlines with which to label people.

Exactly. And that, in my humble opinion, is what rests in the fetid heart of each and every one of those personality test crowd/state-pleasers..

"Leave the psychometry to psychology: tests only in research context", says deranged student. Here's a headline. 8)


(I'm still harassing, aren't I? Yes, I think I am. Blast.)

Quote from: G$ on July 22, 2008, 07:24:43 PMWhich personality type are you?

ISFJ.

http://www.personalitypage.com/ISFJ.html

I took this personality test once, and failed.

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on October 21, 2008, 11:22:23 AM
ISFJ.

http://www.personalitypage.com/ISFJ.html

You'd make a great father.  8)



Just got back from school, where at the end of the day we spent an hour or so in a classroom with a few other classes and a speaker talking about these personality types.


We took the tests before going into the classroom and here's mine:
Introverted 96%
Intuitive 86%
Thinking 80%
Judging 77%


obviously way out of balance!

anyways....... i was about to bring up a million points and ask a question, but now I don't feel like it. Says a lot......

Just have to add one thing. Arnold Schoenberg had to have been an INTJ. If not, then close. Maybe ENTJ. Developing a whole new system of music, and everything.....

other INTJs include Arnold Schwazenegger, CS Lewis and JFK.

random information i'd like to get out of my system.  ::)

I got a sheet of paper explaining the different types and it seems to me that taking a test to determine your type is a waste of time. Just reading the explanations is more accurate. On the first page of the thread, the last letter i got was P, and the test I just took gave me a J.  ::)
So, after reading the descriptions, the obvious category is simply a strong IN__, the last two being whatever mood I'm in- the most variable.

Also, I realized an important point here...... Intuitive types can't work very systematically- and this relates to composing as well. A lot of composers might be able to work with composing a little each day, steadily (i read in an interview that Penderecki does just that), but that's the Sensing type, and Intuitive types work from random bursts of inspiration, with long, dry periods in between.  :P

I took personality test today (https://www.16personalities.com)

Introverted --- 83 %
Intuitive --- 64 %
Thinking --- 56 %
Judging --- 53 %
Turbulent --- 51 %

I N T J - T
Architect Personality

Strengths: Rational, Informed, Independent, Determined, Curious, Versatile.
Weaknesses: Arrogant, Dismissive of Emotions, Overly Critical, Combative, Romantically Clueless

Looking at the weaknesses "Arrogant" and "Combative" explain well my behavior in the US politics thread.  :-\

Quote from: 71 dB on December 07, 2020, 11:57:30 AM
I took personality test today (https://www.16personalities.com)

Introverted --- 83 %
Intuitive --- 64 %
Thinking --- 56 %
Judging --- 53 %
Turbulent --- 51 %

I N T J - T
Architect Personality

Strengths: Rational, Informed, Independent, Determined, Curious, Versatile.
Weaknesses: Arrogant, Dismissive of Emotions, Overly Critical, Combative, Romantically Clueless

Looking at the weaknesses "Arrogant" and "Combative" explain well my behavior in the US politics thread.  :-\

Dude...
not sure why you posted on this 12-year old thread rather than the one on the front page of the Diner.

Actually didn't remember at all that I made this thread back in '08.

Kinda would have guessed INTJ or INTP for you, though your percentages are kinda close.

IMO this test is more of a good thing for determining if you have a spark to continue further or not in the study of typology, it's not really a great test, though. Unless they improved the quality of some of the questions since the last time I took it.

Quote from: greg on December 07, 2020, 04:39:33 PM
Dude...
not sure why you posted on this 12-year old thread rather than the one on the front page of the Diner.

I searched the forum for "personality types" and this thread came up first.

Quote from: greg on December 07, 2020, 04:39:33 PMKinda would have guessed INTJ or INTP for you, though your percentages are kinda close.

That's seriously well guessed. I have never understood this stuff, but I am trying to get into this to understand my strengths and weaknesses better.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 07, 2020, 05:33:02 PM
I searched the forum for "personality types" and this thread came up first.

Huh, search feature goes waaaay back.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 07, 2020, 05:33:02 PM
That's seriously well guessed. I have never understood this stuff, but I am trying to get into this to understand my strengths and weaknesses better.

I think I shared this before with you a while back, but the next step is learning about the Jungian cognitive functions. It gets more complex there and there are some wrong assumptions the internet makes (for example, looping theory). It's a mess, but if you have fun learning then great.   ;D

Quote from: greg on December 07, 2020, 06:10:14 PM
Huh, search feature goes waaaay back.

I think I shared this before with you a while back, but the next step is learning about the Jungian cognitive functions. It gets more complex there and there are some wrong assumptions the internet makes (for example, looping theory). It's a mess, but if you have fun learning then great.   ;D

Seach function doesn't care about the date. Why would it? What's wrong with an old thread?

This is not an area I am that deeply interested of in general. I used to think younger these personality types are complete mumbo jumbo and totally useless pedantry, but after all the (unexpected) struggles and difficulties in life I'm more curious to understand better my strengths and weaknesses. What I find interesting is how my weaknesses seems to have had a much bigger impact on my life than the strengths. Anyway, if I run out of subjects to learn about (won't happen) I have Jungian cognitive functions.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 08, 2020, 04:49:06 AM
Seach function doesn't care about the date. Why would it? What's wrong with an old thread?

Nothing, just that I was trying to make the MBTI thread the only one for typology, since there were a few of mine and should have been consolidated into one thread.

It's okay, though, I am trying to reduce my posting here anyways so no big deal.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 08, 2020, 04:49:06 AM
This is not an area I am that deeply interested of in general. I used to think younger these personality types are complete mumbo jumbo and totally useless pedantry, but after all the (unexpected) struggles and difficulties in life I'm more curious to understand better my strengths and weaknesses. What I find interesting is how my weaknesses seems to have had a much bigger impact on my life than the strengths. Anyway, if I run out of subjects to learn about (won't happen) I have Jungian cognitive functions.

Yeah, you could also read up about enneagram 5w6 or 6w5 since I'm very confident you'd get that result. (or at least would be surprised if you got something different).
I'm finding enneagram to fill the gaps where MBTI and Jungian cognitive functions don't cover.
For example, for my type 5w4, you can be a scientist and an artist at the same time! (or a nerd and a goth lol :P )
In MBTI it may or may be not give you the archetypes that suit you.

For the more advanced stuff, in the Objective Personality System group that I'm in, actually recently I saw some people discussing about the idea of "masculine intuition" (M-Ni or M-Ne) being described of Asperger's- the reason being that in the system that is one of the two parts for the visual modality, and it is thought that the one common thing about everyone with Asperger's is being visual dominant (rather than audio, kinesthetic or "tester").

Anyways, question for you: do loud noises really bother you? Not gonna lie, if I can make it through my life without violently murdering people outside my apartment with a rusty knife I'll be blessed.  0:)

Quote from: greg on December 08, 2020, 05:10:40 PM
Yeah, you could also read up about enneagram 5w6 or 6w5 since I'm very confident you'd get that result. (or at least would be surprised if you got something different).

Enneagram? Never heard. I even think all of this personality type thing is much more popular in the US than in Finland. We don't really use them here as far as I know. Finnish culture might be too introvert for people to discuss openly about their personality type.  :P

Quote from: greg on December 08, 2020, 05:10:40 PMI'm finding enneagram to fill the gaps where MBTI and Jungian cognitive functions don't cover.
For example, for my type 5w4, you can be a scientist and an artist at the same time! (or a nerd and a goth lol :P )
In MBTI it may or may be not give you the archetypes that suit you.

Well, people tend to be many things. That's why I used to think this all is mumbo Jumbo. As if there was ONLY 16 personality types! Every person is a unique personality! The introvert/extrovert axis was the first one I understood long ago, but even that is more complex. I am introvert in Jungian sense, but there are social situations where I am quite extrovert. I have also changed. The struggles in life have made me more eager to express my opinions and I have thicker skin so that a little humiliating situations don't bother me that much. The one benefit of low self-esteem is you don't have to protect your self-esteem. You have nothing to lose in battles of dignity. 25 years ago if I accidentally dropped a coin in a grocery store I would feel humiliated for hours afterwards because I had the illusion of high self-esteem, but nowadays I feel nothing! I have stopped caring what other people think about me. I feel so different person today than 25 years ago. Life changes people.

What's interesting is the amount of people in various personality types vary geographically. My INTJ type is especially common in Poland and East Europe/Russia in general (but not in the north so in Finland it's not common). In the "west" INTJ is less common for some reason.

Quote from: greg on December 08, 2020, 05:10:40 PMFor the more advanced stuff, in the Objective Personality System group that I'm in, actually recently I saw some people discussing about the idea of "masculine intuition" (M-Ni or M-Ne) being described of Asperger's- the reason being that in the system that is one of the two parts for the visual modality, and it is thought that the one common thing about everyone with Asperger's is being visual dominant (rather than audio, kinesthetic or "tester").

I consider myself mild Asperger because about half of things typical to Aspergers apply well to me (Paying attention to detail other people don't care about, being helpless in social situations of large groups of people etc.). I am definitely visual dominant, but audio is also important for me (I am audiovisual dominant).

Quote from: greg on December 08, 2020, 05:10:40 PMAnyways, question for you: do loud noises really bother you? Not gonna lie, if I can make it through my life without violently murdering people outside my apartment with a rusty knife I'll be blessed.  0:)

ALL noises bother me, quiet and loud. I have developped analytic hearing meaning my mind doesn't block even quiet noises around me so I hear everything that is above the threshold of hearing and is not masked by other sounds. Fortunately my neighbours are relatively quiet people.

You must have party animals living next door if you have such violent fantasies. Sounds like you need help much more than I.  ???

Quote from: 71 dB on December 09, 2020, 03:38:16 AM
Enneagram? Never heard. I even think all of this personality type thing is much more popular in the US than in Finland. We don't really use them here as far as I know. Finnish culture might be too introvert for people to discuss openly about their personality type.  :P

I think it's more of an internet thing to get into this stuff, I see it in unexpected places online sometimes now, but never is it discussed IRL.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 09, 2020, 03:38:16 AM
Well, people tend to be many things. That's why I used to think this all is mumbo Jumbo. As if there was ONLY 16 personality types! Every person is a unique personality! The introvert/extrovert axis was the first one I understood long ago, but even that is more complex. I am introvert in Jungian sense, but there are social situations where I am quite extrovert. I have also changed. The struggles in life have made me more eager to express my opinions and I have thicker skin so that a little humiliating situations don't bother me that much. The one benefit of low self-esteem is you don't have to protect your self-esteem. You have nothing to lose in battles of dignity. 25 years ago if I accidentally dropped a coin in a grocery store I would feel humiliated for hours afterwards because I had the illusion of high self-esteem, but nowadays I feel nothing! I have stopped caring what other people think about me. I feel so different person today than 25 years ago. Life changes people.

Right, you could probably eventually find enough factors combined to get billions of types if you wanted to get specific enough.
And there is the factor of people being able to change over time, though it's usually conceived more as a balance rather than actually switching to be the opposite for everything, based on the Jungian individuation concept. Some aspects are flexible, others are really difficult to be flexible.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 09, 2020, 03:38:16 AM
What's interesting is the amount of people in various personality types vary geographically. My INTJ type is especially common in Poland and East Europe/Russia in general (but not in the north so in Finland it's not common). In the "west" INTJ is less common for some reason.

Anything that is INxx will be super common online, but least common IRL it seems.
Last time I saw the geographical stats, it seemed Finland did hold up its stereotype of being introvert, though Japan took the #1 spot of course.
And Arab countries seemed to be the most extroverted.
Makes me wonder if colder countries have a tendency to make people more introverted or what. I'm from a warm part of the US, and at least half of my socializing when growing up was outside playing sports. But after living in a cold place for a few years, I can see how staying inside all the time would make you want to be less social. Idk, just a random thought.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 09, 2020, 03:38:16 AM
I consider myself mild Asperger because about half of things typical to Aspergers apply well to me (Paying attention to detail other people don't care about, being helpless in social situations of large groups of people etc.). I am definitely visual dominant, but audio is also important for me (I am audiovisual dominant).

Cool.
Well, the OPS system is trying to match up their typing system to many things, they have even found clustering of LGBT and similar visual appearances to certain types, but this is all a work in progress. There was discussion about Asperger's but probably nothing will come of it soon. I'm very curious about this stuff, though. There are a few things aspects I can relate to for that (like being annoyed at noises which break my train of thought, or obsessive hobbies when I was younger), but most of it is different, so the similarities/differences are interesting.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 09, 2020, 03:38:16 AM
You must have party animals living next door if you have such violent fantasies. Sounds like you need help much more than I.  ???

Thankfully not party animals, though just people that like to talk loud right outside my door, kids screaming at full volume while playing, people blasting their music in their car, an overly loud TV behind my wall, etc.

Once I made the mistake of living on the first floor of an apartment- LOL. Now I always make sure to live on the top floor, nothing less. Used to have to wear stuff to block out the noise, the sound of zoo animals or bowling balls crashing against my ceiling meant my default state of being was murderous rage. So yeah, screw that.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 08, 2020, 04:49:06 AM
Anyway, if I run out of subjects to learn about (won't happen) I have Jungian cognitive functions.

Well here is the briefest summary possible:

(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/l/t1.0-9/131028114_10223872616378875_3005885527311393944_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=2&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=P0-DowbeFaYAX80C9pv&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=17608b1ae1694af59cc11029682eb30a&oe=5FF5C75E)

My "official" typing is Ni and Fi. Everyone "has" (aka is most comfortable with) doing two:
decider function (one from either the top or bottom row)
observer function (one from the middle two rows)

BAM! Now you can check that off the list of stuff you've learned.  :P :D

Quote from: greg on December 09, 2020, 01:30:35 PM
BAM! Now you can check that off the list of stuff you've learned.  :P :D

Thanks, but my mind is not fine-tuned to this kind of stuff. Sometimes it takes me decades to learn something just because all the ways the thing is represented miss a crucial piece of information for me, typically related to logical connections. I learn math pretty fast, because it's mostly about logical connections and no one in the right mind would teach math without logical connections (that's what math is about!), but other subject such as psychology tend to be about terminology and concepts rather than logical connections and are often taught listing the terms and concepts while leaving out logical connections. For example your "briefest summary possible" picture:

I see colorful balls and text between them, but what does it mean? What logical connections between things does it show? What does the colors mean? What does green mean? Are green balls connected to each other? I understand NOTHING! I don't even fully get the INTJ stuff. Sorry. Aspergers are good at processing information they have absorbed, but bad at absorbing information. I can read, but most of it does not stick to my brain and I have just forgotten it 5 minutes later. To make it stick to my brain the information has to be fascinating (e.g. art) or logical (e.g. math). Most information in neither.

Quote from: greg on December 09, 2020, 07:04:56 AM
Anything that is INxx will be super common online, but least common IRL it seems.

Are you saying INxx people are more active online than others? That's the logical implication of this claim.

Being online is part of "IRL" in my opinion just as watching opera on TV home instead in an opera hall is "IRL". What I write here online affects you, another person, when you read my post. That makes this "IRL".

Quote from: greg on December 09, 2020, 07:04:56 AM
Last time I saw the geographical stats, it seemed Finland did hold up its stereotype of being introvert, though Japan took the #1 spot of course.
And Arab countries seemed to be the most extroverted.
Makes me wonder if colder countries have a tendency to make people more introverted or what. I'm from a warm part of the US, and at least half of my socializing when growing up was outside playing sports. But after living in a cold place for a few years, I can see how staying inside all the time would make you want to be less social. Idk, just a random thought.

People coming to Finland from extroverted countries are often shocked by how cold Finns appear at first, but when they get to know some Finns and understand better Finnish culture they stop calling Finns cold.  ;D Give a Finn alchohol and you see an amazing transformation of an introverted person to an extroverted person. Or go to sauna with Finns!  >:D Maybe all cultures are equally introverted/extroverted, but there's differences in which situtations people are introverted/extroverted. Finns are introverted in everyday life in situations where they are most often seen so they appear introverted while Arabs are extroverted in everyday life and maybe introverted elsewhere? Your theory of being inside could fit into this. Arab version of being inside it avoiding nudity. Finnish (sauna) culture is pretty relaxed when it comes to nudity. In that sense Finns are extroverted.

Quote from: greg on December 09, 2020, 07:04:56 AM
Cool.
Well, the OPS system is trying to match up their typing system to many things, they have even found clustering of LGBT and similar visual appearances to certain types, but this is all a work in progress. There was discussion about Asperger's but probably nothing will come of it soon. I'm very curious about this stuff, though. There are a few things aspects I can relate to for that (like being annoyed at noises which break my train of thought, or obsessive hobbies when I was younger), but most of it is different, so the similarities/differences are interesting.

My brain hurts when I try to understand what you wrote. OPS = Oil purification systems? Operation Productivity Systems? Open Pluggable Specification? Clusters of LGBT? Huh? Nothing is coming soon? What should be coming? Jesus? Sorry if I am too dumb for your posts.

Quote from: greg on December 09, 2020, 07:04:56 AM
Thankfully not party animals, though just people that like to talk loud right outside my door, kids screaming at full volume while playing, people blasting their music in their car, an overly loud TV behind my wall, etc.

Once I made the mistake of living on the first floor of an apartment- LOL. Now I always make sure to live on the top floor, nothing less. Used to have to wear stuff to block out the noise, the sound of zoo animals or bowling balls crashing against my ceiling meant my default state of being was murderous rage. So yeah, screw that.

Well, I don't have people talking loud outside my door. Must be the introverted Finnish culture. A couple of years ago my neighbour had her friend living with her with two very large (friendly) dogs. Everytime the dogs were taken out their heavy tails hit against my door for 3 seconds. That's the worst I have experienced. The good thing about Finnish homes is we have at least double and often triple windows to keep the heat inside and cold outside. So the sound insulation is also better against outdoor noises.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2020, 03:35:52 AM
My brain hurts when I try to understand what you wrote. OPS = Oil purification systems? Operation Productivity Systems? Open Pluggable Specification? Clusters of LGBT? Huh? Nothing is coming soon? What should be coming? Jesus? Sorry if I am too dumb for your posts.

No problem, I guess didn't I provide enough information, was trying to be too brief-
OPS = Objective Personality System. It is basically Myers Briggs on steroids, instead of 16 types there are 512.

Here are examples of two types:
One type (over 50% LGBT- they say LGBT, but I think it's just the G (gay) for that one)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b45d0e_dbce79ac56da4185a862ca7efb6f18ca~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_690,h_211,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/b45d0e_dbce79ac56da4185a862ca7efb6f18ca~mv2.webp)
Another type (none are LGBT)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b45d0e_bbae2ed0eb9c40ceb819a42775342c41~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_692,h_211,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/b45d0e_bbae2ed0eb9c40ceb819a42775342c41~mv2.webp)

The clustering of people who look similar or are LGBT or whatever into the same type is the interesting part. So what I'm saying is that they are studying all types of aspects such as that, even stuff like Asperger's, and trying to note down if there is a specific pattern going on. But it's still an idea in progress, not sure how much it will develop.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2020, 03:22:20 AM
People coming to Finland from extroverted countries are often shocked by how cold Finns appear at first, but when they get to know some Finns and understand better Finnish culture they stop calling Finns cold.  ;D Give a Finn alchohol and you see an amazing transformation of an introverted person to an extroverted person. Or go to sauna with Finns!  >:D Maybe all cultures are equally introverted/extroverted, but there's differences in which situtations people are introverted/extroverted. Finns are introverted in everyday life in situations where they are most often seen so they appear introverted while Arabs are extroverted in everyday life and maybe introverted elsewhere? Your theory of being inside could fit into this. Arab version of being inside it avoiding nudity. Finnish (sauna) culture is pretty relaxed when it comes to nudity. In that sense Finns are extroverted.

Huh, yeah, that is an interesting perspective.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2020, 03:01:38 AM
Are you saying INxx people are more active online than others? That's the logical implication of this claim.

Sure, just breaking it down-
I (introversion) = more likely to want to be alone so will be online more
N (intuition) = more likely to want to explore idea/concepts. And the internet is great for exploring concepts, that is the depth of what it has to offer (once you get past social media, etc.)

Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2020, 03:01:38 AM
Being online is part of "IRL" in my opinion just as watching opera on TV home instead in an opera hall is "IRL". What I write here online affects you, another person, when you read my post. That makes this "IRL".

Lol, true, true.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2020, 02:49:30 AM
I see colorful balls and text between them, but what does it mean? What logical connections between things does it show? What does the colors mean? What does green mean? Are green balls connected to each other? I understand NOTHING!

Hm, it might not really be enough information for understanding, just thought it'd give you an vague idea of what the functions are doing.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2020, 02:49:30 AM
Thanks, but my mind is not fine-tuned to this kind of stuff. Sometimes it takes me decades to learn something just because all the ways the thing is represented miss a crucial piece of information for me, typically related to logical connections. I learn math pretty fast, because it's mostly about logical connections and no one in the right mind would teach math without logical connections (that's what math is about!),
...
Aspergers are good at processing information they have absorbed, but bad at absorbing information. I can read, but most of it does not stick to my brain and I have just forgotten it 5 minutes later. To make it stick to my brain the information has to be fascinating (e.g. art) or logical (e.g. math). Most information in neither.

Ok, so this caught my attention because to me it sounds like you are describing lexicality in the neurotyping system.

But I won't explain what that means, rather show you a picture:
(https://preview.redd.it/idvef46omk151.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=360ab0d7eef7236a80d3c2d4f333cc2391fe6ee5)

Is there anyone whose thinking process that you can relate to most? Would you say Sheldon Cooper maybe?

Quote from: greg on December 10, 2020, 07:17:59 AM
No problem, I guess didn't I provide enough information, was trying to be too brief-
OPS = Objective Personality System. It is basically Myers Briggs on steroids, instead of 16 types there are 512.

Here are examples of two types:
One type (over 50% LGBT- they say LGBT, but I think it's just the G (gay) for that one)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b45d0e_dbce79ac56da4185a862ca7efb6f18ca~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_690,h_211,al_c,%20;)q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/b45d0e_dbce79ac56da4185a862ca7efb6f18ca~mv2.webp)
Another type (none are LGBT)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b45d0e_bbae2ed0eb9c40ceb819a42775342c41~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_692,h_211,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/b45d0e_bbae2ed0eb9c40ceb819a42775342c41~mv2.webp)

The clustering of people who look similar or are LGBT or whatever into the same type is the interesting part.

Bears, look up Gay Bears. ;)

Quote from: greg on December 10, 2020, 07:17:59 AM
No problem, I guess didn't I provide enough information, was trying to be too brief-
OPS = Objective Personality System. It is basically Myers Briggs on steroids, instead of 16 types there are 512.

Here are examples of two types:
One type (over 50% LGBT- they say LGBT, but I think it's just the G (gay) for that one)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b45d0e_dbce79ac56da4185a862ca7efb6f18ca~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_690,h_211,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/b45d0e_dbce79ac56da4185a862ca7efb6f18ca~mv2.webp)
Another type (none are LGBT)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b45d0e_bbae2ed0eb9c40ceb819a42775342c41~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_692,h_211,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/b45d0e_bbae2ed0eb9c40ceb819a42775342c41~mv2.webp)

The clustering of people who look similar or are LGBT or whatever into the same type is the interesting part. So what I'm saying is that they are studying all types of aspects such as that, even stuff like Asperger's, and trying to note down if there is a specific pattern going on. But it's still an idea in progress, not sure how much it will develop.

The face left up looks familiar, but I can't remember who he is. Is this a demonstration having beard indicates NOT being LGBT and vice versa? This is really a topic I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT!! I'm feeling like a monkey listening to a lecture about black holes.  ;D

Of course I can google Objective Personality System and study this topic for an hours, but I have other things to do...

PS. is down right guy Sheamus? The Wrestler?

Quote from: greg on December 10, 2020, 07:17:59 AM
Sure, just breaking it down-
I (introversion) = more likely to want to be alone so will be online more
N (intuition) = more likely to want to explore idea/concepts. And the internet is great for exploring concepts, that is the depth of what it has to offer (once you get past social media, etc.)

I knew I = Introversion and N = iNtuition, but I'm yet to completely understand the difference between iNtuition and Sensing. For me as an INxx guy it's difficult to understand why someone wouldn't be interested of new ideas/concepts. Isn't that just conservatism?   $:)

Quote from: greg on December 10, 2020, 07:17:59 AM
But I won't explain what that means, rather show you a picture:
(https://preview.redd.it/idvef46omk151.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=360ab0d7eef7236a80d3c2d4f333cc2391fe6ee5)

Is there anyone whose thinking process that you can relate to most? Would you say Sheldon Cooper maybe?

I don't have a clue. I agree politically with Bernie Sanders. I had to Google who Sheldon Cooper is.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2020, 10:15:47 AM
I knew I = Introversion and N = iNtuition, but I'm yet to completely understand the difference between iNtuition and Sensing. For me as an INxx guy it's difficult to understand why someone wouldn't be interested of new ideas/concepts. Isn't that just conservatism?   $:)

Right, that is a conservative quality which is not a positive one IMO, though at least they have the positive quality of higher conscientiousness (speaking of how Big Five relates to politics).

Though with increasing push for censorship from political correctness on the left, it seems things are flipping a bit... part of being interested in new ideas/concepts is to not filter the darker, less politically correct ideas. Like not censoring comedians, etc.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2020, 09:58:47 AM
The face left up looks familiar, but I can't remember who he is. Is this a demonstration having beard indicates NOT being LGBT and vice versa?

The idea is that it is unlikely that people who look alike should share an extremely similar personality (like out of 512 types), because it is unlikely.
Yet, instead, it is not uncommon that a people who look alike are being typed exactly the same.
So the thing they have been trying to find out, by typing enough people, is if (or how much) having the same type of genetics that produces their physical appearance, ends up shaping their actual personality. It could be coincidence, but also maybe not, maybe there is something deeper to it.
It's just one idea they want to eventually bring forward to scientists to investigate further.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2020, 09:58:47 AM
PS. is down right guy Sheamus? The Wrestler?

Yes.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2020, 10:44:59 AM
I don't have a clue. I agree politically with Bernie Sanders. I had to Google who Sheldon Cooper is.

Ooohh... huh, I guess never mind then.

Quote from: steve ridgway on December 10, 2020, 07:56:59 AM
Bears, look up Gay Bears. ;)

No thanks.  :-X

Quote from: greg on December 10, 2020, 09:17:39 PM
So the thing they have been trying to find out, by typing enough people, is if (or how much) having the same type of genetics that produces their physical appearance, ends up shaping their actual personality.

The personality could be shaped by being consistently treated based on their physical appearance. Like encouraging an attractive child to be more confident and extroverted.

Quote from: greg on December 10, 2020, 09:17:39 PM
Right, that is a conservative quality which is not a positive one IMO, though at least they have the positive quality of higher conscientiousness (speaking of how Big Five relates to politics).

Though with increasing push for censorship from political correctness on the left, it seems things are flipping a bit... part of being interested in new ideas/concepts is to not filter the darker, less politically correct ideas. Like not censoring comedians, etc.

Conservatism has it's place. For example I am for conserving this planet by taking action to fight climate change.

As I have said, the "left" is not all the same. Some people on the left are into cultural war and indeed push for censorship not understanding the left is one of the the first groups censorship will attack, because the left challenges those in power. People like Kyle Kulinski on the other hand are not into cultural war, but economics. Instead of cencorship they push for medicare for all, tuition free education etc. stuff that would help most people. Kyle Kulinski, a free speech absolutist, has been VERY critical to those who call for censorship. My point is the left is not all the same just as not every Trumpist is the same.

Quote from: greg on December 10, 2020, 09:17:39 PMThe idea is that it is unlikely that people who look alike should share an extremely similar personality (like out of 512 types), because it is unlikely.

Who says they should?

Quote from: greg on December 10, 2020, 09:17:39 PMYet, instead, it is not uncommon that a people who look alike are being typed exactly the same.

Typed by who? Regular people? Do I assume someone to have very similar personality as Sheamus if he looks similar? Maybe... ...but I also know I can be totally wrong.

Quote from: greg on December 10, 2020, 09:17:39 PMSo the thing they have been trying to find out, by typing enough people, is if (or how much) having the same type of genetics that produces their physical appearance, ends up shaping their actual personality. It could be coincidence, but also maybe not, maybe there is something deeper to it.
It's just one idea they want to eventually bring forward to scientists to investigate further.

TYT was joking all crazy trumpists seem to have small faces compared to the head size. Maybe they are into something?

Quote from: steve ridgway on December 11, 2020, 01:28:59 AM
The personality could be shaped by being consistently treated based on their physical appearance. Like encouraging an attractive child to be more confident and extroverted.

Good point!

Quote from: steve ridgway on December 11, 2020, 01:28:59 AM
The personality could be shaped by being consistently treated based on their physical appearance. Like encouraging an attractive child to be more confident and extroverted.

Ehh well there's some limits I guess... that example fits me, but although there were certain years of my life where I was like an extrovert (because so many friends were around me), I always felt like introversion was more natural. Never did I make much effort to make friends, there were either people around me that clicked or there wasn't, and it didn't matter which is the case (still true today).

Quote from: 71 dB on December 11, 2020, 02:09:43 AM
Conservatism has it's place. For example I am for conserving this planet by taking action to fight climate change.

As I have said, the "left" is not all the same. Some people on the left are into cultural war and indeed push for censorship not understanding the left is one of the the first groups censorship will attack, because the left challenges those in power. People like Kyle Kulinski on the other hand are not into cultural war, but economics. Instead of cencorship they push for medicare for all, tuition free education etc. stuff that would help most people. Kyle Kulinski, a free speech absolutist, has been VERY critical to those who call for censorship. My point is the left is not all the same just as not every Trumpist is the same.

Of course, I do recognize the difference and think a little bit of left-leaning policies here and there could help things.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 11, 2020, 02:09:43 AM
Who says they should?

I'm not sure I phrased that in an intelligible way... made some edits to my phrasing. Never mind.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 11, 2020, 02:09:43 AM
Typed by who? Regular people? Do I assume someone to have very similar personality as Sheamus if he looks similar? Maybe... ...but I also know I can be totally wrong.

There's two people that invented this system and they have worked out enough of their system where they can separately type people and get the same results consistently (above 90% of the time).
Which is statistically highly improbable- agreeing on the correct type for one person is less than a .02% chance of happening. Yet they consistently do it.
You do have to hope that they aren't lying, but this is their business, I think it is unlikely that they are lying. They have been trying to get people to join their team (but no luck still).

No, you don't assume assume people that look like Sheamus would have the same personality, never assume that. More often people that look similar should have different types. But it was unexpected that so many similar people DID end up having the same type.


Also, they typed me and my guess (which I didn't tell them) was VERY close. Odds are low that I would be that close. And as time passed, I agree with their typing more and more. So that's why I have legit confidence in their system, even if it is complex, confusing, and they don't explain it well enough.

(btw for my type they only found two women, but David Blaine is the closest guy to my type, and I totally agree on this, he gives the same vibes as I think I do)

Quote from: 71 dB on December 11, 2020, 02:09:43 AM
TYT was joking all crazy trumpists seem to have small faces compared to the head size. Maybe they are into something?

Yeah, possibly.
Gonna take a wild guess, just based on that image, they are probably higher in testosterone.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 11, 2020, 02:09:43 AM
TYT was joking all crazy trumpists seem to have small faces compared to the head size. Maybe they are into something?

Question- did they say anything of the opposite?

Like bigger faces = more left leaning?

I can't tell if I have a big or normal sized face, but it isn't small like that guy. If they made any observation like that, do they have a guess who I would support?

btw this should be evidence I'm not a Trumpist, despite the people who want to box me in to being one.  :D

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MxSzykH3s8T82z_62Pr-mNhWmrJsrsHm/preview

(also regarding my guess, I don't have low T but I still feel like smaller faces might indicate high T, just more of a tendency- could be totally wrong, but whatever)

One more thought, since I get some sort of implication here that personality can be shaped when young- which, sure there are some things, but:

ok, take the Enneagram Type 5 core belief- "can't rely on anyone- gotta be totally self-sufficient"

I was never taught then when I was young. I was an only child until 10 years old, but IMO that wasn't a factor because I could always rely on my parents.

And my mom has always been telling me "no man is an island," which I 100% disagree with.

So something about that resonates from a biological level, not a socially conditioned level. It just feels good to be self-sufficient. I HATE having to rely on others and feel like the world would be better if other people believed the same. People should stop being so needy of others for information and for social support, as much as possible. Of course, you can't totally be self-sufficient, but it is ideal to be as much so as possible.

Quote from: greg on December 11, 2020, 08:54:02 AM
"No man is an island" is clearly untrue - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man). :P

So something about that resonates from a biological level, not a socially conditioned level. It just feels good to be self-sufficient. I HATE having to rely on others and feel like the world would be better if other people believed the same. People should stop being so needy of others for information and for social support, as much as possible. Of course, you can't totally be self-sufficient, but it is ideal to be as much so as possible.

I am the same, work things out for myself and would never fall into the clutches of the counselling or mental health industries.

Quote from: steve ridgway on December 11, 2020, 09:38:29 AM
I am the same, work things out for myself and would never fall into the clutches of the counselling or mental health industries.

Yeah, pretty sure Tony Robbins doesn't know what's best for us.  :D

Quote from: greg on December 11, 2020, 08:39:03 AM
Question- did they say anything of the opposite?

Like bigger faces = more left leaning?

No they didn't as far as I remember.

Quote from: greg on December 11, 2020, 08:39:03 AMI can't tell if I have a big or normal sized face, but it isn't small like that guy. If they made any observation like that, do they have a guess who I would support?

I suppose the absolute size of your face doesn't matter, but how it relates to your head size. You are thinking too much about what "they" (TYT?) would guess. If you are not a trumpist then you aren't one regardless of your face size.

Quote from: greg on December 11, 2020, 08:39:03 AMbtw this should be evidence I'm not a Trumpist, despite the people who want to box me in to being one.  :D

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MxSzykH3s8T82z_62Pr-mNhWmrJsrsHm/preview

Who says you are a trumpist? I have never thought you are one based on what you write here. Apparently I don't have Google drive access and I am not gonno ask for it just to see your link, sorry.

Unscientific and just for fun!

Are you a Trumpist? Find out here: https://www.idrlabs.com/pol/trump/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/pol/trump/test.php)

My score: Your Trump Factor is 0%, which makes you No Donald. Oh, boy, oh boy. You'd better hope we're not going to tell Mr. Trump about your score, because he's going to have something to say about this and it isn't going to be moonlight and roses. If you're that far gone, you might as well be Rosie O'Donnell and not the real Donald. It's probably best for everyone if you and the Donald go your separate ways. Get outta here - you're fired!

Are you a Communist? Find out here: https://www.idrlabs.com/communism/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/communism/test.php)

My score: 4%, not Communist. Your personal agreement with communism is low, indicating that you support few of communism's principles as presented in classical Marxian literature. You most likely believe in the necessity of private property and private business, as well as the right to free economic association and individually-controlled production. You most likely also believe that individuals are more motivated by the prospect of personal gain than by serving the needs of some amorphous social group (such as "society") that the individual perhaps never asked to be a part of.

Are you a Fascist? Find out here: https://www.idrlabs.com/fascist-elements/test.php

My score: Your fascist elements are very low (13.5%).. The general picture is this:

(https://charts.idrlabs.com/graphic/fascist-elements?1&p=80,25,0,0,10,10,0,0,0,10&l=EN)

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 06:23:29 AM
Are you a Trumpist?

Your Trump Factor is 0%, which makes you No Donald. 

(Wasn't this posted before?  I always chuckle when I see a/the dig at Jeb.)

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 06:23:29 AM
Are you a Communist?

10%

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 06:23:29 AMAre you a Fascist?

9.5%

Quote from: Todd on December 12, 2020, 06:40:18 AM
Your Trump Factor is 0%, which makes you No Donald. 

(Wasn't this posted before? 

Yes, by yours truly --- but I couldn't find it so I started it anew.  :D

Quote10% Communist

That's 6 points more than me. You're a Pinko!  ;D

Quote9.5% Fascist

That's 4 points less than me. I'm a rightwing nutjob!  ;D

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 06:44:55 AMThat's 6 points more than me. You're a Pinko!

Most people would think so.

Blimey, I never knew I was Very Privileged (83.3%).

Are you too? Find out here: https://www.idrlabs.com/intersectionalism/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/intersectionalism/test.php)

Seriously now, if being a 48yo white heterosexual educated English-speaking thin male in Romania means being very privileged, then both "very" and "privileged" have lost any meaning whatsoever.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 07:10:05 AMAre you too?

Yes, I am.  I also scored precisely 83.3%

Using the more accurate assessment available on reddit (I believe), I am officially a Shitlord.  I am comfortable with that.

Quote from: Todd on December 12, 2020, 07:15:32 AM

Yes, I am.  I also scored precisely 83.3%

8)

QuoteUsing the more accurate assessment available on reddit (I believe), I am officially a Shitlord.  I am comfortable with that.

Link, please?

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 07:27:25 AM
Link, please?

It has been years since I took it.  I was so satisfied with the results that I never bothered to remember the link.  When you've reached an exalted status like Shitlord, you simply revel in how wonderful it feels.

Quote from: Todd on December 12, 2020, 07:31:51 AM

It has been years since I took it.  I was so satisfied with the results that I never bothered to remember the link.  When you've reached an exalted status like Shitlord, you simply revel in how wonderful it feels.

What is a Shitlord?

Are you a Conservative? https://www.idrlabs.com/conservatism/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/conservatism/test.php)

My score: 48%, Somewhat Conservative. Your personal degree of conservatism is moderate, indicating that you share some of conservatism's values and sentiments. While you most likely agree with certain conservative sensibilities and see the value in some traditional principles, you also find that other elements of conservatism go a step too far towards old-fashioned morality and the unquestioning obedience to the wisdom of one's forebears. You also might have noticed that your degree of agreement with conservatism has fluctuated across your lifetime in accordance with your self-perceived status at various points in your life.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 07:46:38 AM
What is a Shitlord?

I strongly encourage using Google for this one.  Hopefully, you end up on a site affiliated in some way with a US university.

Quote from: Todd on December 12, 2020, 07:50:45 AM

I strongly encourage using Google for this one.  Hopefully, you end up on a site affiliated in some way with a US university.

The very first Google link that popped up gave me this:

A person who basks in the bitterness and misery of others.

Now, I am as imperfect and as sinner as a mortal can be and I can be accused of many things, rightly or wrongly --- but I strongly and indignantly reject the above. It's absolutely, completely and utterly unlike me.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 07:55:24 AM
The very first Google link that popped up gave me this:

A person who basks in the bitterness and misery of others.

Now, I am as imperfect and as sinner as a mortal can be and I can be accused of many things, rightly or wrongly --- but I strongly and indignantly reject the above. It's absolutely, completely and utterly unlike me.

But you must understand the context of the term itself.  It is associated with the pseudo-intellectual construct of "privilege", and therefore it is intrinsically worthless.

Quote from: Todd on December 12, 2020, 07:58:11 AM

But you must understand the context of the term itself.  It is associated with the pseudo-intellectual construct of "privilege", and therefore it is intrinsically worthless.

Oh, of course, I got all that alright. I just basked in a little leftist self-righteousness.  ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 07:10:05 AM
Blimey, I never knew I was Very Privileged (83.3%).

Are you too? Find out here: https://www.idrlabs.com/intersectionalism/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/intersectionalism/test.php)

Seriously now, if being a 48yo white heterosexual educated English-speaking thin male in Romania means being very privileged, then both "very" and "privileged" have lost any meaning whatsoever.

The test doesn't know you are Romanian. It assumes you are American. My score was 68.8 %

Quote from: 71 dB on December 12, 2020, 08:09:21 AM
The test doesn't know you are Romanian. It assumes you are American. My score was 68.8 %

I always answer any test from my Romanian perspective. America is not the be-all-end-all of the world.  :)

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 08:11:51 AMAmerica is not the be-all-end-all of the world.

Incorrect.

Are you a Libertarian? https://www.idrlabs.com/libertarian/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/libertarian/test.php)

My score: You are 0% Libertarian, which makes you Not Libertarian. In your case it is safe to say that you are *not* a libertarian. Whether because you prefer a greater degree of social discipline or economic regulation (or possibly both), you probably tend to find large swatches of the libertarian program to be far-fetched, extremist, and possibly even downright repulsive. If you are not the argumentative type, you had best stay clear of libertarians - they have a reputation for being insufferable in an argument.

The closest I got to being Libertarian is in agreeing that anyone with a driving licence and a car should be a taxi driver if he so wishes --- and that's because there was a flourishing black market in this respect during the Communist regime ---- I remember coming back with my parents from a holiday so many times, descending from the train and getting a guy with a car to drive us home at lower rates than the official taxis --- illegal, of course, but so widespread a practice that it was mostly tolerated byt the authorities.  :D :D :D

Quote from: Todd on December 12, 2020, 08:18:49 AM
Incorrect.

It might be incorrect on GMG. In the world at large it's correct.  ;)

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 08:19:25 AM
If you are not the argumentative type, you had best stay clear of libertarians - they have a reputation for being insufferable in an argument.[/i]

The irony is that I am not a Libertarian yet some people might say I have a a reputation for being insufferable in an argument.  :D :D :D

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 06:23:29 AMAre you a Communist? Find out here: https://www.idrlabs.com/communism/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/communism/test.php)

My score: 4%, not Communist. Your personal agreement with communism is low, indicating that you support few of communism's principles as presented in classical Marxian literature. You most likely believe in the necessity of private property and private business, as well as the right to free economic association and individually-controlled production. You most likely also believe that individuals are more motivated by the prospect of personal gain than by serving the needs of some amorphous social group (such as "society") that the individual perhaps never asked to be a part of.

My score is 47 %  :o

Your personal agreement with communism is moderate, indicating that you support some of communism's basic principles as put forth by the classical Marxian literature. While you most likely agree with certain communist doctrines, such as the reduction of inequalities and a certain skepticism towards the free market, you most likely also find that other features of communism go a step too far towards collectivized power and control. You also might have noticed that your degree of agreement with communism has fluctuated across your lifetime in accordance with your self-perceived status at various points in your life.

The problem with this tests is it thinks there is only communism and capitalism and nothing else, but in reality there's only mixed economies resulting in a spectrum of systems that can be listen like this:

Communism/Socialism - Democratic Socialism - Social Democracy - Capitalism - Crony Capitalism.

This tests actually puts me in the middle of this spectrum which is Social Democracy which is correct as I am a vivid supporter of Social Democracy.  :)

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 08:11:51 AM
I always answer any test from my Romanian perspective. America is not the be-all-end-all of the world.  :)

The test doesn't know about your Romanian perspective! It assumes you answer based on American perspective. Being white in Romania is very diffrent from being white in the US for example. My score is probably too low because the test doesn't know I am Finnish. In the US I would be totally screwed! In Finland I am ok, struggling, but okay.

What USA President Are You? https://www.idrlabs.com/big-five/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/big-five/test.php)

My score:

Out of 25 U.S. Presidents, you are the most like:

(https://www.idrlabs.com/static/i/big-five/james-madison.jpg)


James Madison - "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive, will not long be safe companions to liberty."

Compared to the general population, you are:

    Above average on Openness
    Low on Conscientiousness
    Low on Extroversion
    High on Agreeableness
    Low on Neuroticism


According to a study done by Jeffery J. Mondak, Ph.D., your scores indicate that you are:

    Not likely to discriminate on the basis of race or sexual orientation. - Yes.
    More likely to be pro-choice rather than pro-life. - No, I'm staunchly pro-life
    Likely to feel trapped by the status quo. - No.
    Likely to enjoy complex and abstract discussions. - Yes.
    Likely to be more knowledgeable on academic topics. - Yes.
    Less likely to favor military intervention as a means of solving foreign policy problems. - Yes
    More likely to think that international cooperation will solve foreign policy problems. - Mostly, but not always
    Less likely to take an active interest in your community, preferring instead to go your own way. - Yes.
    More likely to be cosmopolitan in tastes and less likely to be patriotic and proud of your country. - I'm both a cosmopolitan and a patriot.
    Less likely to enjoy romantic fiction than the rest of the population. - If romantic fiction means Barbara Cartland drivel, then yes.
    Less likely to have a tolerant attitude towards smoking. - Yes.
    More likely to favor harsh criminal punishments over milder ones. - Yes with respect to rape and paedophilia
    Less likely to watch TV and read the news, preferring instead to follow your own interests. - Yes, except during election time.
    Less likely to mobilize your friends in your own interests, preferring instead to immerse yourself in your interests in solitude. - Yes.
    Someone who seems impassive to others, while being in fact quite sure of your own views. - Yes.
    Less likely to frequently change jobs and partners. - Yes.
    Less likely to end up in jail or to get in trouble with the law. - Yes.
    More likely to generally agree with your immediate friends and family. - Yes.
    More likely to simply avoid people who are hostile to you, or with whom you are in disagreement. - Yes.
    More likely to oppose capital punishment. - Yes in principle, some cases challenge me greatly
    More likely to take a favorable view of government welfare programs. - Yes in principle, some cases challenge me greatly
    More likely to enjoy fitness training and physical exercise. - No.
    More likely to nurture a few select beliefs that you regard as settled in stone. - Yes.
    Less likely to flirt with harm and danger. - Yes.
    Less likely to have insurance or to belong to a labor union. - Yes.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 12, 2020, 08:41:51 AM
The test doesn't know about your Romanian perspective! It assumes you answer based on American perspective. Being white in Romania is very diffrent from being white in the US for example. My score is probably too low because the test doesn't know I am Finnish. In the US I would be totally screwed! In Finland I am ok, struggling, but okay.

That's the limitation of all those tests, they always assume one is either American or aspiring to be one.  ;D

I take them all just for fun, and so should you.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 08:26:27 AM
.... people might say I have a a reputation for being insufferable in an argument.  :D :D :D

You ? ? ? YOU ? ? ?  Noooooo ! ! !    ;D

Good evening to you, Andrei.

Quote from: ritter on December 12, 2020, 08:54:34 AM
You ? ? ? YOU ? ? ?  Noooooo ! ! !    ;D

Good evening to you, Andrei.

To you as well, Rafael!

Please be honest --- if I ever have been insufferable in an argument with you, just say it! Chances are I probably was.  ;)

But then again, as I said multiple times to multiple GMGers, there's no disagreement whatsoever that can't be cured by having a drink together --- and I stand by it. so help me God!  8)

Quote from: 71 dB on December 12, 2020, 03:31:15 AM
Who says you are a trumpist? I have never thought you are one based on what you write here. Apparently I don't have Google drive access and I am not gonno ask for it just to see your link, sorry.

Oh, ok no problem then.
Mostly it was Herman, for a period of time, was constantly implying I was a Trumpist for disagreeing with some of the negative assessments of him.
The error of this assumption is that defending is not the same thing at all as supporting.
If someone around me kept repeating that Stalin was a pedo, and he wasn't, I'd say that I don't think they are correct.
And if there were signs of him (tons of red flags) but no hard evidence, then I'd say "he could be one, but it's not a 100% sure thing because there is no hard evidence."
And I would probably be called some names (in an alternate universe where this scenario would be a thing).  :P

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 07:10:05 AM
Blimey, I never knew I was Very Privileged (83.3%).

Are you too? Find out here: https://www.idrlabs.com/intersectionalism/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/intersectionalism/test.php)

Seriously now, if being a 48yo white heterosexual educated English-speaking thin male in Romania means being very privileged, then both "very" and "privileged" have lost any meaning whatsoever.

This makes you Exceedingly Privileged (91.7%).


Haha, suck it, losers!

But seriously, I like how "Wealthy" is just one factor of 12, when rich people, no matter what they look like, have so much power over your life and opportunities.
"Wealthy" is 90% of the privilege in the world, not <10%.
And they don't even ask about nation of birth at all, there is a worldwide privilege and a national privilege, two things that are way different.
Intersectionality truly is toxic bullshit.

Quote from: greg on December 12, 2020, 09:21:34 AM
Oh, ok no problem then.
Mostly it was Herman, for a period of time, was constantly implying I was a Trumpist for disagreeing with some of the negative assessments of him.
The error of this assumption is that defending is not the same thing at all as supporting.

Herman implied / openly stated I was a Trumpist, too ---- actually, for him I was "one of the most vocal Trump supporters". He was assuming manifoild errors:

1. Whoever is not with us is against us. Typical Communist / Fascist / Nazi / authoritarian mindset.

2. Fact-checking is defending. As you said, stating that Stalin was not a paedophile amounts to defending Stalin's policies.

3. One can't be both right-of-center and honest. Left is automatically good, right is automatically bad.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 06:23:29 AM
Are you a Communist? Find out here: https://www.idrlabs.com/communism/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/communism/test.php)

28% Not a Communist

Your personal agreement with communism is low, indicating that you support few of communism's principles as presented in classical Marxian literature. You most likely believe in the necessity of private property and private business, as well as the right to free economic association and individually-controlled production. You most likely also believe that individuals are more motivated by the prospect of personal gain than by serving the needs of some amorphous social group (such as "society") that the individual perhaps never asked to be a part of.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 09:35:24 AM
Herman implied / openly stated I was a Trumpist, too ---- actually, for him I was "one of the most vocal Trump supporters". He was assuming manifoild errors:

1. Whoever is not with us is against us. Typical Communist / Fascist / Nazi / authoritarian mindset.

2. Fact-checking is defending. As you said, stating that Stalin was not a paedophile amounts to defending Stalin's policies.

3. One can't be both right-of-center and honest. Left is automatically good, right is automatically bad.

Exactly! Great analysis.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 12, 2020, 08:36:20 AM
My score is 47 %  :o

Your personal agreement with communism is moderate, indicating that you support some of communism's basic principles as put forth by the classical Marxian literature. While you most likely agree with certain communist doctrines, such as the reduction of inequalities and a certain skepticism towards the free market, you most likely also find that other features of communism go a step too far towards collectivized power and control. You also might have noticed that your degree of agreement with communism has fluctuated across your lifetime in accordance with your self-perceived status at various points in your life.

The problem with this tests is it thinks there is only communism and capitalism and nothing else, but in reality there's only mixed economies resulting in a spectrum of systems that can be listen like this:

Communism/Socialism - Democratic Socialism - Social Democracy - Capitalism - Crony Capitalism.

This tests actually puts me in the middle of this spectrum which is Social Democracy which is correct as I am a vivid supporter of Social Democracy.  :)

I am a fanatical Centrist.  :D

I fully subscribe to this:

Quote from: Leszek Kolakowski

"Motto: "Please step forward to the rear!" This is an approximate translation of a request I once heard on a tram-car in Warsaw. I propose it as a slogan for the mighty International that will never exist.

A Conservative Believes:

    That in human life there never have been and never will be improvements that are not paid for with deteriorations and evils; thus, in considering each project of reform and amelioration, its price has to be assessed. Put another way, innumerable evils are compatible (i.e. we can suffer them comprehensively and simultaneously); but many goods limit or cancel each other, and therefore we will never enjoy them fully at the same time. A society in which there is no equality and no liberty of any kind is perfectly possible, yet a social order combining total equality and freedom is not. The same applies to the compatibility of planning and the principle of autonomy, to security and technical progress. Put yet another way, there is no happy ending in human history.
    That we do not know the extent to which various traditional forms of social life–families, rituals, nations, religious communities–are indispensable if life in a society is to be tolerable or even possible. There are no grounds for believing that when we destroy these forms, or brand them as irrational, we increase the chance of happiness, peace, security, or freedom. We have no certain knowledge of what might occur if, for example, the monogamous family was abrogated, or if the time-honored custom of burying the dead were to give way to the rational recycling of corpses for industrial purposes. But we would do well to expect the worst.
    That the idee fixe of the Enlightenment–that envy, vanity, greed, and aggression are all caused by the deficiencies of social institutions and that they will be swept away once these institutions are reformed– is not only utterly incredible and contrary to all experience, but is highly dangerous. How on earth did all these institutions arise if they were so contrary to the true nature of man? To hope that we can institutionalize brotherhood, love, and altruism is already to have a reliable blueprint for despotism.

A Liberal Believes:

    That the ancient idea that the purpose of the State is security still remains valid. It remains valid even if the notion of "security" is expanded to include not only the protection of persons and property by means of the law, but also various provisions of insurance: that people should not starve if they are jobless; that the poor should not be condemned to die through lack of medical help; that children should have free access to education–all these are also part of security. Yet security should never be confused with liberty. The State does not guarantee freedom by action and by regulating various areas of life, but by doing nothing. In fact security can be expanded only at the expense of liberty. In any event, to make people happy is not the function of the State.
    That human communities are threatened not only by stagnation but also by degradation when they are so organized that there is no longer room for individual initiative and inventiveness. The collective suicide of mankind is conceivable, but a permanent human ant-heap is not, for the simple reason that we are not ants.
    That it is highly improbable that a society in which all forms of competitiveness have been done away with would continue to have the necessary stimuli for creativity and progress. More equality is not an end in itself, but only a means. In other words, there is no point to the struggle for more equality if it results only in the leveling down off those who are better off, and not in the raising up of the underprivileged. Perfect equality is a self-defeating ideal.

A Socialist Believes:

    That societies in which the pursuit of profit is the sole regulator of the productive system are threatened with as grievous–perhaps more grievous–catastrophes as are societies in which the profit motive has been entirely eliminated from the production-regulating forces. There are good reasons why freedom of economic activity should be limited for the sake of security, and why money should not automatically produce more money. But the limitation of freedom should be called precisely that, and should not be called a higher form of freedom.
    That it is absurd and hypocritical to conclude that, simply because a perfect, conflict-less society is impossible, every existing form of inequality is inevitable and all ways of profit-making justified. The kind of conservative anthropological pessimism which led to the astonishing belief that a progressive income tax was an inhuman abomination is just as suspect as the kind of historical optimism on which the Gulag Archipelago was based.
    That the tendency to subject the economy to important social controls should be encouraged, even though the price to be paid is an increase in bureaucracy. Such controls, however, must be exercised within representative democracy. Thus it is essential to plan institutions that counteract the menace to freedom which is produced by the growth of these very controls.

So far as I can see, this set of regulative ideas is not self-contradictory. And therefore it is possible to be a conservative-liberal-socialist. This is equivalent to saying that those three particular designations are no longer mutually exclusive options.

As for the great and powerful International which I mentioned at the outset–it will never exist, because it cannot promise people that they will be happy."

From Leszek Kolakowski, Modernity on Endless Trial (University of Chicago, 1990).

[/size]

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 09:45:53 AM
I am a fanatical Centrist.  :D

Check out the Jreg Centricide series on youtube. 
And don't let the political extremist boogeymen who sleep under your bed attack you at night. ;D

Quote from: 71 dB on December 12, 2020, 08:36:20 AM
Democratic Socialism - Social Democracy - Capitalism

What is the main difference, briefly, between these three?
So the USA is Capitalism and you are for Social Democracy? I thought Bernie was for Democratic Socialism.

Now, this is quite interesting: Collectivism Test https://www.idrlabs.com/collectivism/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/collectivism/test.php)

My result:

You tried to distinguish Socialism from Nazism and Fascism and got it right 45% of the time.

You were able to correctly identify:

14.3% of Fascist statements.
20% of Nazi statements.
62.5% of Socialist statements.


I'm not surprised. I never lived in Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany; I was born and raised in the Socialist Republic of Romania.  ;D

I never lived in Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany or Communist Romania, and got it 55% right...  ;)

     Most people don't push their collectivism to an extreme extent at all, either left or right. You can join the army or support a welfare state and still be quite an individualist in favor of freedom and even an open society. Most people who are socialist, liberal or conservative don't want to live in a dictatorship of any kind.

     The big divide is between members of the groups who prefer to live in free societies and those who don't.

Quote from: ritter on December 12, 2020, 10:28:47 AM
I never lived in Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany or Communist Romania, and got it 55% right...  ;)

Yeah, but you live in post-Franco Spain...  ;D

Quote from: drogulus on December 12, 2020, 10:37:53 AM
     The big divide is between members of the groups who prefer to live in free societies and those who don't.

Define "free societies".  ;D ;D ;D

Just took this: https://www.idrlabs.com/morality/6/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/morality/6/test.php)

My result:

Your scores:

Care 100%
Loyalty 25%
Fairness 75%
Authority 58%
Purity 92%   
Liberty 86%

Your strongest moral foundation is Care.

Your morality is closest to that of a Left-Liberal.

I'm a bleeding-heart liberal ---- take that, Herman!  ;D

I just took this: https://www.idrlabs.com/political-left-right/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/political-left-right/test.php)

I answered in all earnest,  according to the current Romanian context. I got this result:

(https://charts.idrlabs.com/graphic/political-left-right?i=8&p=60,40&l=EN)

One of the most vocal Trumpists, eh?  ;D

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 10:42:21 AM
Define "free societies".  ;D ;D ;D

     It's when your freedom is compatible with the freedom of others and institutions of government are so arranged. It's how most liberals, conservatives and socialists choose to live. It's a very collective way for non-collectivists to get along with people who don't share their views.

   

Quote from: drogulus on December 12, 2020, 11:00:12 AM
     It's when your freedom is compatible with the freedom of others and institutions of government are so arranged.

That is, it's never. Never ever. Ever. Is Biden's freedom compatible wirth Trump's? Is the USA government so arranged as to guarantee both?

Quote
It's how most liberals, conservatives and socialists choose to live.

That's very true, because most liberals, conservatives and socialists are just most normal human beings, ie centrists.

Quote
It's a very collective way for non-collectivists to get along with people who don't share their views.

See above. Most normal people are centrists by nature.

Quote from: drogulus on December 12, 2020, 10:37:53 AM
   Most people who are socialist, liberal or conservative don't want to live in a dictatorship of any kind.

That's also true, yet historically many of them ended up living in a dictatorship. Do you have an explanation for this?

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 10:05:17 AMNow, this is quite interesting: Collectivism Test https://www.idrlabs.com/collectivism/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/collectivism/test.php)

I have never lived in a Fascist, Nazi, or Socialist country, yet I got 65%.  I did attend an American university, so that explains it.

Quote from: Todd on December 12, 2020, 11:33:46 AM

I have never lived in a Fascist, Nazi, or Socialist country, yet I got 65%.  I did attend an American university, so that explains it.

Hah!  ;D

But please, share your specific percentages, that's the interesting part!  ;)

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 11:36:20 AM
But please, break it down to specific percentages, that's the interesting part!  ;)

Already closed the screen, but my ability to spot Nazi ideas (80%) was tops.  It's all the time I spend reading posts here at GMG, you see.

Quote from: Todd on December 12, 2020, 11:38:01 AM

Already closed the screen, but my ability to spot Nazi ideas (80%) was tops.  It's all the time I spend reading posts here at GMG, you see.

(chortle)

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 11:10:51 AM

Most normal people are centrists by nature.

     Of course, and abnormal people even more so. They want to be free to live with each other, which they do.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 11:10:51 AM
Is Biden's freedom compatible wirth Trump's? Is the USA government so arranged as to guarantee both?

     Yes, it is. Trump is finding his need to avoid severe legal problems incompatible with the results of the election. That's his view. My view is that he should be accorded the same protection of the law as everyone else, no more and no less. That applies to the results of the election and any further encounters he will have with the forces of law and order.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 08:47:46 AM
What USA President Are You? https://www.idrlabs.com/big-five/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/big-five/test.php)

(https://www.idrlabs.com/static/i/big-five/woodrow-wilson.jpg)

Um, nope.

Quote from: drogulus on December 12, 2020, 11:40:01 AM
     Of course, and abnormal people even more so. They want to be free to live with each other, which they do.

I do think and do believe that inveterate rapists and paedophiles should be punished severely, much  much much more severely than pickpockets  or corrupt politicians. They are abnormal people who should be prevented by all necessary means to do the abnormal things they bask in.

   

QuoteYes, it is. Trump is finding his need to avoid severe legal problems incompatible with the results of the election. That's his view. My view is that he should be accorded the same protection of the law as everyone else, no more and no less. That applies to the results of the election and any further encounters he will have with the forces of law and order.

Wait a minute! Are you saying, implying and stating that a Fascist should be accorded the same protection of the law as everyone else, no more and no less? If you do, then you are far more tolerant than me --- I would have all Fascists, Nazis and Communists hanged on the spot, right now, right there!

Quote from: Todd on December 12, 2020, 11:45:47 AM

(https://www.idrlabs.com/static/i/big-five/woodrow-wilson.jpg)

Um, nope.

Hah!  :D :D :D

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 10:05:17 AM
Now, this is quite interesting: Collectivism Test https://www.idrlabs.com/collectivism/test.php (https://www.idrlabs.com/collectivism/test.php)

My result:

You tried to distinguish Socialism from Nazism and Fascism and got it right 45% of the time.

You were able to correctly identify:

14.3% of Fascist statements.
20% of Nazi statements.
62.5% of Socialist statements.


I'm not surprised. I never lived in Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany; I was born and raised in the Socialist Republic of Romania.  ;D

I chose Socialist for every question because every one sounded socialist/communist to me.

Collectivism Test
result icon
You tried to distinguish socialism from Nazism and fascism and got it right 40% of the time.
You were able to correctly identify:

0% of Fascist statements.
0% of Nazi statements.
100% of Socialist statements.

So 60% was Nazi-ism/Fascism?  ???

But yeah, makes sense, these ideologies can be grouped under collectivism. I guess identity politics in general could be as well. Not a fan.

Quote from: greg on December 12, 2020, 12:06:52 PM
I chose Socialist for every question because every one sounded socialist/communist to me.

Collectivism Test
result icon
You tried to distinguish socialism from Nazism and fascism and got it right 40% of the time.
You were able to correctly identify:

0% of Fascist statements.
0% of Nazi statements.
100% of Socialist statements.

Hah!  :D

Well, Mussolini started out as a Socialist activist and journalist, and Hitler's party was called the National-Socialist Party of the German Workers.  ;D

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 11:50:02 AM
I do think and do believe that inveterate rapists and paedophiles should be punished severely, much  much much more severely than pickpockets  or corrupt politicians. They are abnormal people who should be prevented by all necessary means to do the abnormal things they bask in.

     I was thinking more along the lines of introverts or gold bugs, or artists, perhaps.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 11:50:02 AM

Wait a minute! Are you saying, implying and stating that a Fascist should be accorded the same protection of the law as everyone else, no more and no less? If you do, then you are far more tolerant than me --- I would have all Fascists, Nazis and Communists hanged on the spot, right now, right there!

     They are, and since I don't see how a society could remain free otherwise, they should have the protection of the law. However, I'm intolerant personally more than I am philosophically. To gold bugs I say......Get Thee Hence!

     

Quotegrouped under collectivism

      .....collected under groupism.....

Quote from: drogulus on December 12, 2020, 02:04:04 PM
    I  don't see how a society could remain free otherwise, they should have the protection of the law.

Imagine Lenin was hanged immediately after setting foot on Russian soil and began propagandizing for Communism. Or HItler was hanged immediately after the Beer Hall Putsch.  Had not the world been a better place?

Freedom must be protected at any cost, including curtailing the freedom of all those who would curtail the freedom of anybody else. I say hang here and now all Communists, Fascists and Nazis!

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 08:51:21 AM
I take them all just for fun, and so should you.

I do.  ;)

These test make one-dimensional questions when the answers are often multidimensional (e.g. I support X if also Y is done, but if Y is not done I don't support X either, because it only makes sense with Y). The lack of multidimensional questions are made up having many one-dimensional questions and a simplistic algorithm tries to figure out how the person would have answered to fewer multi-dimensional questions.  :P

Quote from: greg on December 12, 2020, 09:58:20 AM
Democratic Socialism - Social Democracy - Capitalism
What is the main difference, briefly, between these three?
So the USA is Capitalism and you are for Social Democracy? I thought Bernie was for Democratic Socialism.

Societies and economy are so complex systems, that the differences are hard to explain.

In democratic socialism all or most means of production are owned by the people as a collective and how these means of production are run is decided democratically. This is the furthest right version of socialism and differs from socialism by having democratic process instead of the state telling what to do.

Social Democracy is the furthest left version of capitalism. It's build on capitalism, but also contains strong wellfare programs and many things are run by the state instead of private sector or together with private sector with heavy regulation (e.g. healthcare).

In Capitalism it is thought that poverty is a failure of the individual rather than the society and wellfare programs are kept minimal as an insentive to try harder and succeed in life. Those who do succeed can gain extreme wealth.

Hopefully this clarifies there terms a little bit for you, but be aware that these terms aren't defined that well and people may disagree about details, but this is more or less how I define them.

The US is not pure idealistic capitalism. It's crony capitalism. If the US was capitalistic, Exxon Mobile would not get $4 billion of subscidies each year just because it has bought the politicians to make it so. Legal bribery in the US makes the country crony capitalism aka corporate socialism.

Bernie Sanders calls himself a Democratic Socialist, but he has the terminology wrong. His political agenda is to advocate Social Democracy, the system used in countries like Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland which has empirically been very successful.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 12, 2020, 03:02:15 PM
In democratic socialism all or most means of production are owned by the people as a collective and how these means of production are run is decided democratically.

There has not been, there is not, and there will not be anything even remotely ressembling democratic socialism.

The people as a collective is a fiction.

Democracy is a fiction.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 02:23:04 PM


Freedom must be protected at any cost, including curtailing the freedom of all those who would curtail the freedom of anybody else. I say hang here and now all Communists, Fascists and Nazis!

      I'd rather not kill it to save it.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 03:11:11 PM
There has not been, there is not, and there will not be anything even remotely ressembling democratic socialism.

The people as a collective is a fiction.

Democracy is a fiction.

     I call them enabling assumptions. We get the kind of freedom we have because we are predisposed to act on them.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 12, 2020, 03:02:15 PM
I do.  ;)

These test make one-dimensional questions when the answers are often multidimensional (e.g. I support X if also Y is done, but if Y is not done I don't support X either, because it only makes sense with Y). The lack of multidimensional questions are made up having many one-dimensional questions and a simplistic algorithm tries to figure out how the person would have answered to fewer multi-dimensional questions.  :P

Societies and economy are so complex systems, that the differences are hard to explain.

In democratic socialism all or most means of production are owned by the people as a collective and how these means of production are run is decided democratically. This is the furthest right version of socialism and differs from socialism by having democratic process instead of the state telling what to do.

Social Democracy is the furthest left version of capitalism. It's build on capitalism, but also contains strong wellfare programs and many things are run by the state instead of private sector or together with private sector with heavy regulation (e.g. healthcare).

In Capitalism it is thought that poverty is a failure of the individual rather than the society and wellfare programs are kept minimal as an insentive to try harder and succeed in life. Those who do succeed can gain extreme wealth.

Hopefully this clarifies there terms a little bit for you, but be aware that these terms aren't defined that well and people may disagree about details, but this is more or less how I define them.

The US is not pure idealistic capitalism. It's crony capitalism. If the US was capitalistic, Exxon Mobile would not get $4 billion of subscidies each year just because it has bought the politicians to make it so. Legal bribery in the US makes the country crony capitalism aka corporate socialism.

Bernie Sanders calls himself a Democratic Socialist, but he has the terminology wrong. His political agenda is to advocate Social Democracy, the system used in countries like Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland which has empirically been very successful.

Ok cool, I think I get it now, thanks for the explanation.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 03:11:11 PM
There has not been, there is not, and there will not be anything even remotely ressembling democratic socialism.

Not perhaps democratic socialist countries, but there has been politicians and political parties in many countries advocating these ideas. For example Mikhail Gorbachev wanted to move the Soviet Union towards democratic socialism.

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 03:11:11 PMThe people as a collective is a fiction.

You might have a differing opinion when a Romanian athlete wins Olympic gold.  ;D

Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2020, 03:11:11 PMDemocracy is a fiction.

Perhaps people in Romania feel that way, but there's plenty of countries including my country Finland which are pretty democratic.

Quote from: greg on December 12, 2020, 05:08:15 PM
Ok cool, I think I get it now, thanks for the explanation.

You're welcome.  ;)

Discovered two new systems the last two days- one is a bit complex and hard to understand, the other is pretty simple (it involves motivation styles and is from India). Not sure I'll ever discuss them, but they will be fun to dig in to.

Just a thought, but I often go to personality-database.com and do a search for some character (often fictional ones) and it seems that lately I've been very accurate lately on my guesses for their enneagram type (on the page it will give a bunch of votes from other people).

So it means that I'm understanding the enneagram system more and also I'm seeing the same thing that other people are seeing as the predominant traits of that character. It is statistically unlikely I would have the same guesses as others so often if the (main idea of) the system was a bunch of nonsense.

The Artist, mainly - but with bits and pieces from the duty-fulfiller and the nurturer.
I might have had the originality spoken of but was crushed into timidity by a fierce and tyrannical father.

Here's one that people might find fun:

Murderous Villain Test
https://www.idrlabs.com/villain/test.php


I don't know if I agree with the results and am also not so familiar with this evil villain, so for this test is a dud.  :P But could be a fun test for others.


(https://www.idrlabs.com/graphic/villain-graph?p1=0,44,33,44,56&p2=32,72,19,46,64&villain=Albert%20Speer&locale=EN)

Quote
Albert Speer
Albert Speer
Minister of Armaments in Nazi Germany
"One seldom recognizes the devil when he is putting his hand on your shoulder."

Personality Match

Like Albert Speer, you are intellectually minded. You see yourself as an observer of events rather than as a partaker in them - as someone who analyzes rather than influences, and thinks rather than does. However, you should remember that your detached analytical stance does not make you an innocent bystander in life and that all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. Passivity is also a choice that affects others.

Words of Warning

Points to consider for people with your personality - have you ever:

Shrugged your shoulders and given up trying to apply your own sense of what you knew was right, simply because other people's outlooks seemed so far from yours?
Come across as insensitive and absent-minded because you were so lost in your own inner analyses that you did not want to extend your attention to anything else?
Put your considerable analytical skills to work at solving problems that it would perhaps not be entirely ethical to solve, thinking only of the technical side of the situation, and not the moral one?
Diminished your own productivity by ceaselessly hunting down minor imperfections and mistakes in your own work, and constantly undoing the progress that you had made?
Knowingly wasted your talents because you "did not see the point" of all the striving and self-assertion that usually goes along with accomplishment and achievement?

Just recording this thought- the Enneagram 7w6 type. Which correlates to MBTI ENFP type.

Study case of 3 people:

So, I have two friends that took the MBTI test and scored as ENFP, which I completely agree is accurate after knowing them for some time. The third person is Jared Dines, a popular guitarist/drummer youtuber that I've followed for years. Jared Dines consensus is 6w7/ENFP (i agree with, though maybe 7w6 is more accurate? but it's basically the same thing...).
source: https://www.personality-database.com/profile/30073/jared-dines-musicians-music-critics-mbti-personality-type


All three of them remind me of each other, STRONGLY, despite the different backgrounds/interests/hobbies they may have. Enneagram type 7 is The Enthusiast. So they are the most fun type of people to be around, full of curiosity, weird ideas, jack-of-all trades, and are outgoing. HOWEVER they all three have talked about their other side, which is very bad problems with anxiety/depression. This I really think is the 6 wing.

What I think is going on here, is that when you get into a very broad range of interests, you create so many different problems and challenges for yourself. So you can either lean on the 8 wing (aggression) or the 6 wing (being guarded and going into rational problem-solving) mode. Usually people who are more jerk-like and wild will go on 8, and regular easygoing people will move to 6 wing.

But yeah, I find the strong similarities really fascinating, starting to feel like this is a really really solid archetype...

A very interesting find, of course this is unprovable but it really seems to make sense.

Quote
9w1 Ego-Superego
1w9 Superego-Ego
1w2 Double Superego
2w1 Double Superego
2w3 Superego-Id
3w2 Id-Superego
3w4 Id-Ego
4w3 Ego-Id
4w5 Double Ego
5w4 Double Ego
5w6 Ego-Superego
6w5 Superego-Ego
6w7 Superego-Id
7w6 Id-Superego
7w8 Double Id
8w7 Double Id
8w9 Id-Ego
9w8 Ego-Id

It seems that a typical type for psychopaths is 7w8 or 8w7, people have noted the possible connection with dopamine as well. Seems like psychopathy is the id running alone, possibly there could be some ego, but there is no superego at all that is developed due to some brain deformity.

Recently learned about M.E. Thomas, who is the author of "Confessions of a Sociopath." She is voted as 7w8 on personalitydb, listened to her speak on a few new youtube videos, seems like it might be correct, speaking about her dangerous adventures and confrontations.

7 is basically prone to high impulsiveness and 8 is prone to high aggression.

"Double ego" for me, all energy towards the center.  :D

Every now and then retaking quizzes to see if anything changes.

Redid this one:

https://www.truity.com/test/enneagram-personality-test

Pretty much the same results as always, no matter which site I take the test from.  :P

Apparently many people get identified as INTJs mistakenly. Since the tests I took indicated a rather low value (53 %) for "J", I started to compare INTJ and INTP types. Looks like I am actually a mixture of INTJ and INTP, perhaps just a little more INTJ.

I recently took the MBTI test again and got INTJ-T, but the "J" part was 57 %.

I feel I am not a true INTJ who can magically "jump" to a logical conclusion over the middle part, nor do I know and remember "everything" like a true INTP. Maybe I am just a mixture of the worst parts of INTJ and INTP which would explain my struggles in life? In the end all of us must be a weighted sum of all personality types, but in my case INTJ and INTP seems to take the major junk of it all. However, I need to check the "N" part. I may have also some ISTJ and ISTP in me, but I need to study* these personality types. The "I" part is settled. I am as introverted as they come.

These things are new to me and I need time to get a better understanding of all of this, but this is also interesting. I wish I knew/cared about these things when I was 20, not when I am already 50. My life would have been much less about self-doubt and confusion about what is wrong with me. There is nothing wrong with me. I am just a mixture of INTJ and INTP so of course I suck at things in which some very different personality types are good at such as understanding how other people feel. All we need is a World that understands and respects these differences and allows all personality types to strive in life.

* Well, quick look into these personality types indicate they don't describe me well at all. Especially ISTP "Virtuoso" is quite far from me. So, it seems INTJ and INTP describe me almost completely: So, my cognitive functions would be:

Dominant function: Introverted thinking AND intuition
Auxiliary function: Extroverted thinking AND intuition
Tertiary function: Introverted sensing AND feeling
Inferior function: Extroverted sensing AND feeling

I think this sums up REALLY well what's going on in my head.  0:) Extroverted sensing and feeling being my inferior cognitive function explains brilliantly my awkwardness, idiotism, clumsiness, insensitivity and cluelessness in many social situations. I am much better in social interaction with smaller groups of people I know well, because I can use introverted sensing and feeling in those situations (other people are projected "inside" me because I know them well) and that is at least my tertiary cognitive function, but even in those situations I am hardly a social skills genius.  ;D

I say, fuck'em all, all these tests and classifications! To the hell with them all! Each and every single human being is unique and there is no effing way under the sun to tell how and why a unique human being would behave given these or those conditions. Left, right, center --- bullshit on stilts! All three are heavily dependent on historical and personal circumstances.

Quote from: Florestan on July 17, 2021, 09:33:45 AM
I say, fuck'em all, all these tests and classifications! To the hell with them all! Each and every single human being is unique and there is no effing way under the sun to tell how and why a unique human being would behave given these or those conditions. Left, right, center --- bullshit on stilts! All three are heavily dependent on historical and personal circumstances.

I may have thought this way long ago, but at some point in life people may stop and ask why certain things didn't go as they should have gone or why does the struggles continue despite all the efforts of overcoming them. There personality types seem to help people to understand themselves better and give some peace of mind: There are other people out there with identical struggles and feelings.

I just watched a youtube video by an INTP telling about her struggles in life (lack of achieving anything despite of trying) which seems to be typical to INTP who despite of high intelligance and knowledge just don't make it in life because of their weaknesses in other areas. That was comforting to me, because I have also struggled to achieve anything in life. I am not a failure. I am just an INTJ/P and that's why I don't have a wife/family and career. My type of people succeed "inside head" by constructing vivid colourful inner worlds and understanding things. The World just doesn't appreciate such success unless it is ground breaking such as a new theory in physics or something like that, but only a few super-intelligent INTJs and INTPs can achieve that. Anyway, aknowledging these things helps mental balance. Maybe for someone with a perfect life these things are "useless", but most people have issues, don't they?

Quote from: 71 dB on July 17, 2021, 03:32:29 AM
Apparently many people get identified as INTJs mistakenly. Since the tests I took indicated a rather low value (53 %) for "J", I started to compare INTJ and INTP types. Looks like I am actually a mixture of INTJ and INTP, perhaps just a little more INTJ.

I recently took the MBTI test again and got INTJ-T, but the "J" part was 57 %.

I feel I am not a true INTJ who can magically "jump" to a logical conclusion over the middle part, nor do I know and remember "everything" like a true INTP. Maybe I am just a mixture of the worst parts of INTJ and INTP which would explain my struggles in life? In the end all of us must be a weighted sum of all personality types, but in my case INTJ and INTP seems to take the major junk of it all. However, I need to check the "N" part. I may have also some ISTJ and ISTP in me, but I need to study* these personality types. The "I" part is settled. I am as introverted as they come.

These things are new to me and I need time to get a better understanding of all of this, but this is also interesting. I wish I knew/cared about these things when I was 20, not when I am already 50. My life would have been much less about self-doubt and confusion about what is wrong with me. There is nothing wrong with me. I am just a mixture of INTJ and INTP so of course I suck at things in which some very different personality types are good at such as understanding how other people feel. All we need is a World that understands and respects these differences and allows all personality types to strive in life.

* Well, quick look into these personality types indicate they don't describe me well at all. Especially ISTP "Virtuoso" is quite far from me. So, it seems INTJ and INTP describe me almost completely: So, my cognitive functions would be:

Dominant function: Introverted thinking AND intuition
Auxiliary function: Extroverted thinking AND intuition
Tertiary function: Introverted sensing AND feeling
Inferior function: Extroverted sensing AND feeling

I think this sums up REALLY well what's going on in my head.  0:) Extroverted sensing and feeling being my inferior cognitive function explains brilliantly my awkwardness, idiotism, clumsiness, insensitivity and cluelessness in many social situations. I am much better in social interaction with smaller groups of people I know well, because I can use introverted sensing and feeling in those situations (other people are projected "inside" me because I know them well) and that is at least my tertiary cognitive function, but even in those situations I am hardly a social skills genius.  ;D

One thing you wanna be careful about when you get deeper into studying this is just to make sure you question every little part of it, because there is plenty of stuff out there that is theories built on theories which end up in systems that you can't really verify at all.

For example, now that you are getting into cognitive functions, there's this idea on the internet that "looping" is a sign of unhealth, which is super ridiculous. (Looping is having either two extroverted or two introverted functions togethers as your main type- ex. Ne/Fe, Ti/Si, etc.)

In the Objective Personality System they realized that was BS. They typed me as Ni/Fi (introverted intuition + introverted feeling).

In cognitive function theory, some people can get confused which two functions they are using because of this. Because in MBTI, there are 16 types, but in cognitive functions there are 32 possibilities, and if you end up like me, using two introverted functions primarily, then it just won't translate well.


Regardless, still thinking more highly of the enneagram lately, as it's a system that really cuts to the core. MBTI, functions, etc. are interesting but more of a side effect from what you have to do to achieve your core values (which is what the enneagram is about). It's like the master system, everything else is just an extension from there.

I would be very surprised if you weren't a type 5, seems pretty obvious. But not sure which wing you'd be, I guess if it's 4 then you value freedom/authenticity/creativity more, if it's 6 then you value security/safety/support more. And you can also have a tritype which can really explain things even better. You might have 1 in your tritype, you are probably extremely similar to my type.

Quote from: greg on July 17, 2021, 01:20:30 PM
One thing you wanna be careful about when you get deeper into studying this is just to make sure you question every little part of it, because there is plenty of stuff out there that is theories built on theories which end up in systems that you can't really verify at all.

For example, now that you are getting into cognitive functions, there's this idea on the internet that "looping" is a sign of unhealth, which is super ridiculous. (Looping is having either two extroverted or two introverted functions togethers as your main type- ex. Ne/Fe, Ti/Si, etc.)

In the Objective Personality System they realized that was BS. They typed me as Ni/Fi (introverted intuition + introverted feeling).

In cognitive function theory, some people can get confused which two functions they are using because of this. Because in MBTI, there are 16 types, but in cognitive functions there are 32 possibilities, and if you end up like me, using two introverted functions primarily, then it just won't translate well.


Regardless, still thinking more highly of the enneagram lately, as it's a system that really cuts to the core. MBTI, functions, etc. are interesting but more of a side effect from what you have to do to achieve your core values (which is what the enneagram is about). It's like the master system, everything else is just an extension from there.

I would be very surprised if you weren't a type 5, seems pretty obvious. But not sure which wing you'd be, I guess if it's 4 then you value freedom/authenticity/creativity more, if it's 6 then you value security/safety/support more. And you can also have a tritype which can really explain things even better. You might have 1 in your tritype, you are probably extremely similar to my type.

Well, maybe I check out Enneagrams at some point, but it takes me a lot of effort to get into these "systems" with their own code language. It is not the logic, it is the language that is hard for me. "Type 5" means nothing to me before I have connected a meaning to it in my head, and creating those arbitrary connections take time, because "type 5" could mean ANYTHING. Car tire size, army tent type, electric socket type, mental disorder type and I am sure "type 5" means many things in different contexts, but for me it always means tiresome memorizing to learn such arbitrary code language. MBTI types where complete mumbo jumbo for long, but I learned them (fortunately there are some logic which help a lot). I prefer systems where things are labeled logically so that there is not need to memorize labels. When all labels are similar and arbitrary I struggle a lot, because there are no ways for association. For example labels

A1222
99C22
7G99S
S3398

Are similar and arbitrary, but labels

Norway-ed-1003
Denmark-22
Sweden-Finland-Estonia-Multi-888
Netherlands-revised-AFG2

Are less similar and more descriptive. It is very easy to learn "Denmark-22" means something concerning Denmark and not Norway.

The good thing about my* INTJ/INTP confusion is I have to think these things a lot. It may take me months or even years to arrive to the deeper understanding of these things, but at least the answers are our there waiting for me. It is super-nice to know there is a "user's manual" for my mind and all I need to do is to select the correct manual out of 16 or 32 or whatever...

* well, a lot of people seem to have the same struggle. I think this is caused by projecting multidimensional data into lesser dimensions. Data gets distorted. For me the idea that someone is 100 % INTJ or 100 % INTP is crazy. A lot of stuff that applies to typical INTJ and INTP applies to me so this is like building up the manual for my mind. Together INTJs and INTPs make up about 5 % of all people, so it is comforting for me to know one in 20 people have a mind that operates somewhat similarly to mine. It makes me feel less of an alien from outer space.

INTJs - getting things done is more important than absolute truth.
INTPs - absolute truth is more important than getting things done.

Someone said: "I am an INTJ when I'm working and I need to get things done, but when I relax I become an INTP".

Maybe it is all about mental flexibility? Maybe INTPs and INTJs are mentally flexible in the J <---> P direction, but not on other directions?

I took a "INTJ or INTP?" test at IDRlabs.com and the result was consistent to prior results: 53 % INTJ and 47 % INTP.

So, I have to just accept I am mostly an INTJ, but I also have a lot of INTP in me. I am a collection of INTP-like INTJ traits and INTJ-like INTP-traits. Traits that are most common/compatible to these personality types. I can't do some of the things only "true" INTPs can do such as building a huge library of knowledge inside mind, nor am I a "true" INTJ who gets everything done effectively and fast. I can build a small library of relevant knowledge in my mind and I get things done eventually in reasonable time. The INTP in me wanted to keep researching this ad nauseum, but the INTJ in me is now ready to call this issue clarified so I can move on.  ;D

Quote from: 71 dB on July 17, 2021, 08:41:01 PM
Well, maybe I check out Enneagrams at some point, but it takes me a lot of effort to get into these "systems" with their own code language. It is not the logic, it is the language that is hard for me. "Type 5" means nothing to me before I have connected a meaning to it in my head, and creating those arbitrary connections take time, because "type 5" could mean ANYTHING. Car tire size, army tent type, electric socket type, mental disorder type and I am sure "type 5" means many things in different contexts, but for me it always means tiresome memorizing to learn such arbitrary code language. MBTI types where complete mumbo jumbo for long, but I learned them (fortunately there are some logic which help a lot). I prefer systems where things are labeled logically so that there is not need to memorize labels. When all labels are similar and arbitrary I struggle a lot, because there are no ways for association. For example labels

A1222
99C22
7G99S
S3398

Are similar and arbitrary, but labels

Norway-ed-1003
Denmark-22
Sweden-Finland-Estonia-Multi-888
Netherlands-revised-AFG2

Are less similar and more descriptive. It is very easy to learn "Denmark-22" means something concerning Denmark and not Norway.

Right, for sure. It takes time to learn them. There are nicknames that help- Type 5 is commonly referred to as "The Investigator," for example, but overall I prefer to just read about the exact meaning of the type (which is their core fear/desire) and then later get a feel for each type combination by reading about them (triads, wings, subtypes, etc.).

But yeah, I'm probably incomprehensible at this point, I have the feeling that your curiosity will eventually lead here (especially if you are a type 5 "Investigator" like me), so this info is for later lol.  :P

Quote from: 71 dB on July 17, 2021, 08:41:01 PM
The good thing about my* INTJ/INTP confusion is I have to think these things a lot. It may take me months or even years to arrive to the deeper understanding of these things, but at least the answers are our there waiting for me. It is super-nice to know there is a "user's manual" for my mind and all I need to do is to select the correct manual out of 16 or 32 or whatever...

* well, a lot of people seem to have the same struggle. I think this is caused by projecting multidimensional data into lesser dimensions. Data gets distorted. For me the idea that someone is 100 % INTJ or 100 % INTP is crazy. A lot of stuff that applies to typical INTJ and INTP applies to me so this is like building up the manual for my mind. Together INTJs and INTPs make up about 5 % of all people, so it is comforting for me to know one in 20 people have a mind that operates somewhat similarly to mine. It makes me feel less of an alien from outer space.

You are definitely getting a good understanding already.

Example: Objective Personality System has 512 types (probably the most out of any typing system), so sometimes people are extremely similar when they have the same type. More dimensions = more accuracy (that you can't get with a 16-type system). But you can only go so far, since everyone is unique. But it's cool to get a really close estimate.

There are two people I have talked to that have the same type as me (out of 512), so with a system that deep you'd expect other (smaller) systems to match up... but there are still small differences- they said they both type as Enneagram type 5, but their wing (which you can think of as a sort of secondary type) is the 6 wing while mine is the 4 wing. So my conclusion is that their reasons for using the cognitive functions tend to be a bit different...

Quote from: 71 dB on July 18, 2021, 03:49:56 AM
INTJs - getting things done is more important than absolute truth.
INTPs - absolute truth is more important than getting things done.

Someone said: "I am an INTJ when I'm working and I need to get things done, but when I relax I become an INTP".

Maybe it is all about mental flexibility? Maybe INTPs and INTJs are mentally flexible in the J <---> P direction, but not on other directions?

I took a "INTJ or INTP?" test at IDRlabs.com and the result was consistent to prior results: 53 % INTJ and 47 % INTP.

So, I have to just accept I am mostly an INTJ, but I also have a lot of INTP in me. I am a collection of INTP-like INTJ traits and INTJ-like INTP-traits. Traits that are most common/compatible to these personality types. I can't do some of the things only "true" INTPs can do such as building a huge library of knowledge inside mind, nor am I a "true" INTJ who gets everything done effectively and fast. I can build a small library of relevant knowledge in my mind and I get things done eventually in reasonable time. The INTP in me wanted to keep researching this ad nauseum, but the INTJ in me is now ready to call this issue clarified so I can move on.  ;D

Yeah, same for me pretty much. I've been through this line of thought. Though for me the Thinking/Feeling tended to also be closer to balanced, so same issue there.

"INTPs can do such as building a huge library of knowledge inside mind" - Ti function
"INTJ who gets everything done effectively and fast" - Te function

So if you really wanted to settle only one type, you just gotta know which one you are so comfortable with that you don't even realize you're doing it, but you're doing it all the time. The other one may be more conscious and reasonably comfortable, but it isn't autopilot.

Quote from: 71 dB on July 17, 2021, 11:05:49 AM
I may have thought this way long ago, but at some point in life people may stop and ask why certain things didn't go as they should have gone or why does the struggles continue despite all the efforts of overcoming them. There personality types seem to help people to understand themselves better and give some peace of mind: There are other people out there with identical struggles and feelings.

Yeah, the challenge of describing what is going wrong, and resolving it, is not having enough labels, actually.

There are only so many things listed as personality disorders (I think it's only 12 types?) yet if you have any major issues outside that, people won't have any idea what is wrong, or they won't believe you, or just can't help because it hasn't been studied (who studies stuff that isn't even labeled yet?).

If you have something like bipolar, narcissism, autism, depression, etc. then at least there are names for them and they are well understood, studied, etc.

I still have not found a name for what used to be my big problem. I described it to my parents again today and they said it sounds like being "stir crazy." Like being one of those hyperactive dog breeds but is cruelly locked in a kennel all day. But for me it was entirely at work, I've only heard of people experiencing that at home- but working from home is the best solution that has worked because at least I'm around so many different forms of entertainment to distract me from the boredom.

But I've never heard of or known anyone that gets nearly as messed up as I did working a boring job, people's temperaments are different. Now that I have been working from home for a year, suddenly I don't see any traces of this "disorder" at all.

Imagine being so EXTREMELY bored and EXTREMELY restless at the same time all day, every day, to the point it's so bad that you'd rather just jump in traffic, or maybe see something shocking so it takes the numbness away temporarily. I would have appreciated if there was a label associated with people that have a strong tendency for that.

There is a test called "AnimalInYou" and my results were eagle and fox is also close. Not animals that are okay with being locked in cages.

Quote from: greg on July 18, 2021, 06:57:46 PM
Yeah, the challenge of describing what is going wrong, and resolving it, is not having enough labels, actually.

I just googled about fidgeting and found a label that is quite close to what I was experiencing strongly for 8 years:
https://www.healthline.com/health/agitated-depression

We might have to go back to office at work in a few months and when I'm there I do still feel it, but the feeling is the mild spice in comparison to any type of service industry job, where the feeling is extreme spice.

The thing that has helped most for an office job is getting up and going walking around the building frequently. Especially to go out and get an energy drink, the sweet sweet dopamine rush of going for the hunt tends to have a positive mood boost that lasts a while.

This problem probably extends far more than I think, for example, the fidgeting and possible restless leg (years ago my parents noticed that while sleeping, but no way of knowing if that's a problem or not still).

One of the best feelings ever was walking freely in Japan, it is like the pure opposite of this "agitated depression" feeling. Getting some freedom outside of the cage that society and work traps you in!  0:)

Quote from: greg on July 18, 2021, 04:23:40 PM
You are definitely getting a good understanding already.

Example: Objective Personality System has 512 types (probably the most out of any typing system), so sometimes people are extremely similar when they have the same type. More dimensions = more accuracy (that you can't get with a 16-type system). But you can only go so far, since everyone is unique. But it's cool to get a really close estimate.

There are two people I have talked to that have the same type as me (out of 512), so with a system that deep you'd expect other (smaller) systems to match up... but there are still small differences- they said they both type as Enneagram type 5, but their wing (which you can think of as a sort of secondary type) is the 6 wing while mine is the 4 wing. So my conclusion is that their reasons for using the cognitive functions tend to be a bit different...

Well, understanding things like this SHOULD be rather easy for me if I am an INTJ/P.  ;)

512 types sounds very accurate, but how accurately do we need to know our personality type? Ultimately there are 8 billion personality types on this planet including you and me. The good thing about 16 personality types is it describes people accurately enough so that people can understand themselves and others better, but still find a lot of information about their type. I'm sure my personality type out of those 512 is something very rare (something living in the border of INTJ and INTP in MBTI). Combining INTJ and INTP means one out of 20 people is "similar" to me (corresponds well my real life experiences), but perhaps only one out of 256-1024* people would have the same OPS type so I would feel more "alien". In this sense 16 types feels a good compromise between accuracy and generality.

* assuming my type is 2 times more or less common or something in between compared to average type.

My personality is of the curmudgeon variety. ;) ;D

The most interesting thing I've seen recently is the "coping mechanisms of each enneagram type."

I've realized that this might be actually be the easiest way to type others, because it can be hard to type people's core motivations from an external perspective- none of us are mind readers. But if we see someone habitually use any of these coping mechanisms, it may point to their type.


These feel very accurate. I could preach all day about the wonders of isolation/compartmentalizing your life.  :P

They also feel accurate when relating to people I know who I convinced to take the enneagram test lol.

Still trying to understand "introjection" and "reaction formation" a bit more, I get the idea but hopefully will understand more once seeing it "in the wild." Reason why, is that 4 and 1 are the other parts of my tritype, so I wonder if these coping mechanism also extend to your tritype, or if they are just your main type.

Quote
Ones: Reaction Formation

Reaction Formation is a defense mechanism by which individuals reduce or try to eliminate anxiety caused by their own thoughts, feelings, or behaviors that they consider unacceptable by responding in a manner that is the exact opposite of their real responses. The One's active inner critic dictates what is acceptable based on social mores, contextual expectations, and moral principles, and reaction formation becomes a defensive remedy when Ones experience what they deem "unacceptable" reactions. A subtle example often seen in Ones is when they dislike someone yet are especially nice and polite to this person. A more blatant example – one that is not exclusive to Enneagram style Ones – is an individual who crusades against corporate corruption, only to be discovered later as having embezzled money from the organization.

Twos: Repression

Repression is a defense mechanism by which individuals hide information about themselves from themselves – for example, feelings, desires, wishes, aversions, fears, and needs – that are too difficult to acknowledge consciously. However, the repressed information doesn't disappear; instead, expression of the repressed data is controlled or held down while it continues to influence the individual's behavior. For example, Twos may feel anxious and need reassurance, but they may be only minimally aware of this. Instead of exploring these feelings or seeking comfort, the Two reassures another person who appears to be in distress.

Threes: Identification

Identification is a psychological defense mechanism in which a person unconsciously incorporates attributes and characteristics of another person into his or her own personality and sense of self. Identification is a way of bolstering one's self-esteem by forming an imaginary or real alliance with an admired person, then taking on that person's characteristics. When Threes model their own behavior after someone else or the idea they have of someone, they are usually not aware they are doing so. For this reason, it becomes complicated for them to untangle who they really are from this image. In particular, Threes identify most with images of individuals who are admired in the Three's desired social context, and the image with which Threes identify often changes as their context changes.

Fours: Introjection

Introjection is a counter-intuitive defense mechanism. Instead of repelling critical information and negative experiences that can cause a person anxiety or pain, individuals introject the information – that is, they fully absorb, internalize, and incorporate these data into their sense of self. Fritz Perls, the father of Gestalt Therapy, refers to this phenomenon as swallowing something whole without being able to differentiate between information that is true from information that is untrue. Fours introject negative information – and repel positive data – about themselves as a way of coping with painful information and neutralizing external threats. They prefer to deal with self-inflicted damage rather than having to respond to criticism or rejection from others.

Fives: Isolation

Isolation occurs in Fives as a way for them to avoid feeling overwhelmed and empty. Fives isolate themselves by retreating into their minds, cutting themselves off from their feelings, and compartmentalizing – that is, isolating each part of themselves from the whole or the related parts. For example, Fives separate their thoughts from their feelings and/or feelings from behaviors, as well as separating their personal and work lives. Fives may also isolate themselves from other people and separate their relationships so that their friends never meet one another; in fact, some Fives even have secret lives.

Sixes: Projection

Projection is a psychological defense mechanism in which individuals unconsciously attribute their own unacceptable, unwanted, or disowned thoughts, emotions, motivations, attributes, and/or behaviors to others. While the projection may be positive, negative, or neutral, it occurs because the individuals who are projecting perceive the projected attributes as difficult to acknowledge or threatening to believe about themselves. Because Sixes make these attributions unconsciously, they imagine that they are true, although at a deeper level they are not entirely certain about this. Although Sixes use projection as a way to create some certainty and thus reduce their anxiety in ambiguous, uncertain, or potentially dangerous situations, these projections – particularly if they are negative in nature – ironically raise the Six's anxiety level. In addition, when Sixes project either something negative or positive that is untrue, they create a false reality without knowing they are doing so.

Sevens: Rationalization

Rationalization is a defense mechanism by which individuals explain unacceptable thoughts, feelings, and behaviors in a way that entirely avoids or obscures their true motivations, intentions, or the effects of the behavior. When Sevens rationalize, they do so by positive reframing, justifying their behavior by explaining it in highly positive terms. Sevens use reframing to avoid pain, discomfort, sadness, guilt, and anxiety, as well as to avoid taking personal responsibility for what has occurred.

Eights: Denial

Denial is a defense mechanism by which individuals unconsciously negate something that makes them feel anxious by disavowing its very existence. These can include thoughts, feelings, wishes, sensations, needs, and other external factors that are unacceptable to the Eight for some reason. Denial comes in a variety of forms. A person may deny the reality of the unpleasant information altogether, admit that something is true but deny or minimize its seriousness, or admit that both the information and its severity are true but deny any personal responsibility for it.

Nines: Narcotization

Narcotization is a psychological defense mechanism in which individuals unconsciously numb themselves to avoid something that feels too large, complex, difficult, or uncomfortable to handle. Nines narcotize and distract themselves by engaging in prolonged rhythmic activities that are familiar, require very little attention, and provide comfort – for example, washing the dishes; working in the garden; continuous pleasure reading of books by the same author or within the same genre; going for a walk or a bike ride; engaging in frequent or extended casual conversations; or continuously changing channels on the TV. Nines also use daily routines such as morning or evening rituals to immunize themselves from being fully aware, and they feel agitated, irritated, or disoriented when these repetitive activities become disrupted.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 19, 2021, 04:01:11 PM
My personality is of the curmudgeon variety. ;) ;D

That word just reminds me of custard every single time I see it for some reason. Now I will always associate custard with you.  :P ;D

Quote from: greg on July 19, 2021, 05:51:50 PMThat word just reminds me of custard every single time I see it for some reason. Now I will always associate custard with you.  :P ;D

Hah! :P I guess it's better than being called an asshole. :)

Random observation, but I recently realized that the album I made you listen to is probably referencing the enneagram.

Holy Origin by Vestals...

Thinking of sending the singer a message to see, because I google "Holy Origin" and only the enneagram comes up.

There is idea of virtuous spiritual qualities for each type, a "holy idea."

For type 4 it's this one:
Type 4: Holy Origin (Equanimity) means that in the original state of being, whole and complete connection exists in each moment with nothing of substance or importance missing. Being in this oneness of all creates inner calm. Complete harmony exists with what is present (termed "equanimity




Btw you probably don't care to look it up but I'd guess you are a 9, leaning toward 9w8.

I know no one cares, but thought to write a note anyways.  :P

Quote from: greg on July 19, 2021, 05:51:50 PM
Fives: Isolation

Isolation occurs in Fives as a way for them to avoid feeling overwhelmed and empty. Fives isolate themselves by retreating into their minds, cutting themselves off from their feelings, and compartmentalizing – that is, isolating each part of themselves from the whole or the related parts. For example, Fives separate their thoughts from their feelings and/or feelings from behaviors, as well as separating their personal and work lives. Fives may also isolate themselves from other people and separate their relationships so that their friends never meet one another; in fact, some Fives even have secret lives.

Sounds right. I hated my job (not so much because the tasks, but because psychopath bosses) so I totally isolated work from my personal life. My feelings are a separate thing from my logical thinking. I feel things by listening to music, watching movies and enjoying art. Meanwhile my rational side is processing ideas like space being imaginary entropy. I even have "secret lives" in the sense that I only tell a certain type of information about myself to certain type of people and groups. It is like having permission tags with everything: This information can be told to this person or this group of people based on how other people and groups communicate with each other. So, I have kind of told everything about myself to the World, but the information is scattered all over the planet so nobody can can know everything about me. My huge problem is the fear of creation of social nets connecting people who know something about me so that they can figure me out better. Of course most information can be revealed to anyone such as me liking Elgar and Spielberg's movies, but then there are dark secrets which are known hardly anyone. Sometimes I may go too far and tell too much of myself (permission tag mismanagement).

I am more and more convinced I was born an INTJ, but the World hasn't been kind in allowing me be one. INTJs have goals. For me reaching goals in life has been a constant struggle and if I have reached some goals, they have turned out to be something else I anticipated them to be (my job with psychopath bosses being one example). So, all the obstacles the World has thrown on me has eventually made me question if it I even should have goals. Why have goals, if it all leads to misery if anything? The World is clearly more interested in supporting and helping extroverts to reach their goals in life while offering obstacles for us ultra-introverts as everything is about social games! What does social media offer to introverts? For extroverts it offers the opportunity to be an influencer. Good luck having more than 50 followers in social media if you are an introvert!

So, The World has pushed me away from having goals and even dreams. Well, INTPs don't have goals, so that's why I must have adopted a lot of INTP identity and even thougth processes. If I can't reach my goals and dreams in the external World, I can always "simulate" them in my mind.

Quote from: greg on July 18, 2021, 04:23:40 PM
Yeah, same for me pretty much. I've been through this line of thought. Though for me the Thinking/Feeling tended to also be closer to balanced, so same issue there.

"INTPs can do such as building a huge library of knowledge inside mind" - Ti function
"INTJ who gets everything done effectively and fast" - Te function

So if you really wanted to settle only one type, you just gotta know which one you are so comfortable with that you don't even realize you're doing it, but you're doing it all the time. The other one may be more conscious and reasonably comfortable, but it isn't autopilot.

Sorry about responding drop by drop, but I am a bit low energy because of the INSANE heatwave we had in Finland, but it cooler now.

I think I was very comfortable with being an INTJ in my youth when my life was mostly good and achieving goals (such as getting good grades at school with hard work) felt possible. I really believed I can go far in life and achieve a lot, but I was very naive. I didn't know my personality type puts me in disadvantaged position. I didn't know how cruel/unfair the World can be. After high school the World kind of revealed its ugly face and started "throwing rocks" at me. Suddenly the demands to achieve goals started looking increasingly impossible. The result is it is not very easy for me to be comfortable with anything. Maybe being a half INTJ and half INTP is the best compromise I can come up with? I think if my life started giving more (such as a good job I enjoy + more recognition for my skills and knowledge) I could "go back" being a full INTJ, but it is difficult to be one if you almost never achieve anything.

One of the best things in my life in recent years has been getting into music theory and learning that stuff myself. That helps being INTJ. It is knowledge I can USE, put in action. Create better music. That is a form of self-expression which is beneficial for INTJs because it allows using Extroverted Thinking to work on tertiary Introverted Feeling and inferior Extroverted Sensing which normally are pushed back in an INTJ mind. It is INTJ way of being a little extroverted at least some way. However, getting into music theory took insane amount of years. School teached me nothing about it. Astonishingly I was able to walk for decades on this planet without ever encountering information about music theory to make me have a "ahaa!" moment. I walked in darkness wondering why A-minor (natural) and C-major scales are two different things despite of having the exact same "white" notes in them. Nobody ever told me notes on a scale have different functions which instantly explains the difference. All of this changed when I happened to see a Youtube video by Ray Harmony analysing The Prodigy's new song and I got a half "ahaa!" moment a little later causing a massive "ahaa!" moment when I saw a couple of videos about (church) modes by Youtuber Jake Lizzio. Finally someone told me the notes on a scale are not equal! Recently I watched tons of videos by "Dr. B", Dr. Christopher Brellochs. 4-part writing etc. Some people learn this stuff when they are 15. I learn it at age 50.  ;D

Quote from: greg on July 18, 2021, 08:24:35 PM
I just googled about fidgeting and found a label that is quite close to what I was experiencing strongly for 8 years:
https://www.healthline.com/health/agitated-depression

We might have to go back to office at work in a few months and when I'm there I do still feel it, but the feeling is the mild spice in comparison to any type of service industry job, where the feeling is extreme spice.

The thing that has helped most for an office job is getting up and going walking around the building frequently. Especially to go out and get an energy drink, the sweet sweet dopamine rush of going for the hunt tends to have a positive mood boost that lasts a while.

This problem probably extends far more than I think, for example, the fidgeting and possible restless leg (years ago my parents noticed that while sleeping, but no way of knowing if that's a problem or not still).

One of the best feelings ever was walking freely in Japan, it is like the pure opposite of this "agitated depression" feeling. Getting some freedom outside of the cage that society and work traps you in!  0:)

I don't think I suffer from agitated depression. I am not a "nail-biter". I am more of a calm cynic. My first thought reading this is maybe freelancing is your thing? Maybe such way of working could provide enough "freedom from cages" to you?

Quote from: 71 dB on July 20, 2021, 04:55:25 AM
Sounds right. I hated my job (not so much because the tasks, but because psychopath bosses) so I totally isolated work from my personal life. My feelings are a separate thing from my logical thinking. I feel things by listening to music, watching movies and enjoying art. Meanwhile my rational side is processing ideas like space being imaginary entropy. I even have "secret lives" in the sense that I only tell a certain type of information about myself to certain type of people and groups. It is like having permission tags with everything: This information can be told to this person or this group of people based on how other people and groups communicate with each other. So, I have kind of told everything about myself to the World, but the information is scattered all over the planet so nobody can can know everything about me. My huge problem is the fear of creation of social nets connecting people who know something about me so that they can figure me out better. Of course most information can be revealed to anyone such as me liking Elgar and Spielberg's movies, but then there are dark secrets which are known hardly anyone. Sometimes I may go too far and tell too much of myself (permission tag mismanagement).

Would be nice to be able to delete everything from the internet!  :D

Quote from: 71 dB on July 20, 2021, 04:55:25 AM
I am more and more convinced I was born an INTJ, but the World hasn't been kind in allowing me be one. INTJs have goals. For me reaching goals in life has been a constant struggle and if I have reached some goals, they have turned out to be something else I anticipated them to be (my job with psychopath bosses being one example). So, all the obstacles the World has thrown on me has eventually made me question if it I even should have goals. Why have goals, if it all leads to misery if anything? The World is clearly more interested in supporting and helping extroverts to reach their goals in life while offering obstacles for us ultra-introverts as everything is about social games! What does social media offer to introverts? For extroverts it offers the opportunity to be an influencer. Good luck having more than 50 followers in social media if you are an introvert!

So, The World has pushed me away from having goals and even dreams. Well, INTPs don't have goals, so that's why I must have adopted a lot of INTP identity and even thougth processes. If I can't reach my goals and dreams in the external World, I can always "simulate" them in my mind.

Oh yeah, I get it about the goals problem.
For me the only difference seems to simply be the necessity of working full time always getting in the way of my goals (rather than social issues).

I've had several specific goals for the last 18-20 years and they haven't changed. I planned to get them over with over 10 years ago, but really only got one completed so far. Why? Because of working from home with because of Covid- that's the only reason I even got the time for it. I did it mostly during work hours, and my job usually isn't very busy at all.

When I get home from work, the last thing I want to do is commit my only 3 hours towards a goal which I might not be in the mood for. If I'm not in the mood to do something, I simply can't concentrate at all, it's nearly impossible.

But if I'm working on a personal project for 8 hours a day during morning-afternoon- like a 9-5 work day, I can concentrate on it. Problem is, doing these personal projects don't pay the bills. So all of your energy is sucked into paying the bills and none of it left is oriented towards goals. So it makes me wish I never developed any dreams to begin with when I was the age of 13-15.

So I get that, thinking you are a P(erceiver) when you might be a J(udger). Maybe slightly different causes for me, but same result.

Found a good one.
What causes stress based on your enneagram type?
https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/what-causes-stress-based-on-your-enneagram-type

Quote1. The Reformer: Feeling irresponsible.
2. The Helper: Compulsive self-sacrificing.
3. The Achiever: Not getting approval.
4. The Individualist: Being misunderstood.
5. The Investigator: Not enough alone time.
6. The Loyalist: Anxiety about the future.
7. The Enthusiast: Overcommitting.
8. The Challenger: Refusing to slow down.
9. The Peacemaker: Making decisions.

I believe it's correct, because out of all of them:
#5 is the top for me, and #4 is second place.

and since I always type as 5w4, this fits 100%.

So if you want to know your enneagram type, you could probably choose the top two or three from this list and have a good idea.



Just a side thought, but in regards to political discussions online, it really is a major pet peeve when people completely misrepresent what you're saying and take the worst, ugliest possible interpretation and throw it at you as a personal attack. If you are an enneagram type 4 it will very much not be appreciated, with the stress point of being misunderstood.

Just found one of the most fun ones.
Based on 1600 characters, which ones are you most like? (btw they way they did sliders with the test is fantastic IMO)

https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/characters/

My results:

Complete match list
Top 30:

QuoteFox Mulder (The X-Files): 85%
Dom Cobb (Inception): 85%
Jo March (Little Women): 84%
River Tam (Firefly + Serenity): 83%
Janis Ian (Mean Girls): 83%
Patrick Jane (The Mentalist): 83%
April Ludgate (Parks and Recreation): 82%
Sherlock Holmes (Sherlock): 82%
Francisco d'Anconia (Atlas Shrugged): 82%
Jughead Jones (Riverdale): 82%
Darlene (Mr. Robot): 82%
John Connor (Terminator 2: Judgement Day): 82%
Sherlock Holmes (Elementary): 82%
Patrick Verona (10 Things I Hate About You): 81%
Alan Shore (Boston Legal): 81%
Doc Brown (Back to the Future): 81%
Arya Stark (Game of Thrones): 80%
Sirius Black (Harry Potter): 80%
The Joker (The Dark Knight): 80%
Dr. Ian Malcolm (Jurassic Park): 80%
Dr. Gregory House (House, M.D.): 80%
Alexander Hamilton (Hamilton): 80%
Ragnar Lothbrok (Vikings): 80%
Mike Ross (Suits): 80%
Willy Wonka (Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory): 80%
Robin Buckley (Stranger Things): 80%
Jane Margolis (Breaking Bad): 79%
Rust Cohle (True Detective): 79%
Spike Spiegel (Cowboy Bebop): 79%
Alex Vause (Orange is the New Black): 79%

Bottom 30:

QuoteErvin Burrell (The Wire): 34%
James Norrington (Pirates of the Caribbean): 34%
D.I. Greg Lestrade (Sherlock): 34%
Meg March (Little Women): 34%
Miguel Rivas (This Is Us): 34%
India Wilkes (Gone With the Wind): 34%
Lieutenant Schrank (West Side Story): 34%
Sam Healy (Orange is the New Black): 33%
Stan Beeman (The Americans): 33%
Cornelius Fudge (Harry Potter): 32%
Jerry Gergich (Parks and Recreation): 32%
Charlotte York (Sex and the City): 32%
The Nurse (Romeo and Juliet): 32%
Michelle (The Room): 32%
Morty Seinfeld (Seinfeld): 32%
Alan Harper (Two and Half Men): 32%
Choi Yeon-gyo (Parasite): 32%
Petunia Dursley (Harry Potter): 31%
Garner Ellerbee (Baywatch): 31%
Helen Seinfeld (Seinfeld): 30%
Matt Donovan (The Vampire Diaries): 30%
Ashley Wilkes (Gone With the Wind): 30%
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon (The Simpsons): 29%
Kenneth Parcell (30 Rock): 29%
Glenn Sturgis (Superstore): 29%
Principal Skinner (The Simpsons): 28%
Shirley Bennett (Community): 28%
Cyndee Pokorny (Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt): 27%
Mr. William Collins (Pride and Prejudice): 26%
Ned Flanders (The Simpsons): 25%
Mary Cooper (The Big Bang Theory): 23%

Retook it to see how the results of the top 30 would slightly shift.

Quote
Dom Cobb (Inception): 85%
John Galt (Atlas Shrugged): 82%
Sherlock Holmes (Elementary): 82%
River Tam (Firefly + Serenity): 81%
Fox Mulder (The X-Files): 81%
Francisco d'Anconia (Atlas Shrugged): 81%
Robert Ford (Westworld): 80%
Sherlock Holmes (Sherlock): 80%
Janis Ian (Mean Girls): 80%
Arya Stark (Game of Thrones): 79%
Neo (The Matrix): 79%
Jo March (Little Women): 79%
John Connor (Terminator 2: Judgement Day): 79%
Ender Wiggin (Ender's Game): 79%
Nathan Bateman (Ex Machina): 79%
Walter White (Breaking Bad): 78%
Alex Vause (Orange is the New Black): 78%
Jughead Jones (Riverdale): 78%
Darlene (Mr. Robot): 78%
Kat Stratford (10 Things I Hate About You): 78%
Jason Bourne (The Bourne Identity): 78%
Doc Brown (Back to the Future): 78%
Mike Ross (Suits): 78%
Dr. Horrible (Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog): 78%
April Ludgate (Parks and Recreation): 77%
Bruce Wayne (The Dark Knight): 77%
Peggy Olson (Mad Men): 77%
Dagny Taggart (Atlas Shrugged): 77%
Ellis Wyatt (Atlas Shrugged): 77%
Jonah Byrde (Ozark): 77%

It's funny to see sci-fi thriller leads representing the list, that's my favorite genre.

But if you threw Doc Brown and Arya Stark in a blender, wouldn't that produce a character like Neo, Fox Mulder, or Dom Cobb?

I don't remember most of the characters, but certainly remember Doc and Arya, they are like two parts of me for sure.

But overall slightly disappointed that 85% match is the top match out of 1600 characters, seems like there should be someone out there over 90%, that would be amusing.

QuoteHolland Code (RIASEC) Test
This is an interactive version of the IIP RIASEC Markers.

Background
The Holland Occupational Themes is a theory of personality that focuses on career and vocational choice. It groups people on the basis of their suitability for six different categories of occupations. The six types yield the RIASEC acronym, by which the theory is also commonly known. The theory was developed by John L. Holland over the course of his career, starting in the 1950s. The typology has come to dominate the field of career counseling and has been incorporated into most of the popular assessments used in the field. The RIASEC Markers from the Interest Item Pool were developed by Liao, Armstrong and Rounds (2008) for use in psychological research as a public domain alternative to the usual assessments which are marketed commercially.

https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/RIASEC/




My results:
Realistic    4
Investigative    21
Artistic    29
Social    2
Enterprising    1
Conventional    5
Scores range from 0 to 32.


No surprise there... can't do anything outside of arts/sciences for a career, wouldn't even be worth living doing most jobs.

Trying to do a deeper dive on learning about various animal species, finding a sort of "spirit animal," so far it has been an eagle or owl, but just found about this bird and it definitely has got to be up there, possibly the contender for first place:


Tiny Vicious Killer Of The Bird World ~ Shrike Impales Its Victims On A Spike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpRcc5jvRmQ


It kills prey when it isn't hungry so it can store food for weeks later and decorates its living space with corpses like trophies.  ;D

Really feels like the same process of buying so many video games right now while I have the chance (in case they get absurdly expensive) so I can play them years later. Also, definitely more carnivorous, meat is the best food group. But not Jeffrey Dahmer, I swear.  :P ;D

Two new finds:

1)
What Makes Each Enneagram Type Angry
https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/2020/07/17/heres-what-makes-you-angry-based-on-your-enneagram-type/


Mine:
The Enneagram Five – Lack of Autonomy
and
The Enneagram Four – Being Forced to Conform


The other types:
The Enneagram One – Laziness/Irresponsibility
The Enneagram Two – Selfishness/Rudeness
The Enneagram Three – Lack of Ambition/Drive
The Enneagram Six – Lack of Security
The Enneagram Seven – Feeling Trapped
The Enneagram Eight – Injustice
The Enneagram Nine – Being Dismissed

This could be used as a possible shorthand to know your enneatype.






2)
The Four Tendencies
https://quiz.gretchenrubin.com/

QuoteBy asking the one simple question, "How do I respond to expectations?" we gain exciting insight into ourselves. And when we know how other people respond to expectations, we understand them far more effectively, as well.

We all face two kinds of expectations—outer expectations (meet work deadlines, answer a request from a friend) and inner expectations (keep a New Year's resolution, start meditating). Our response to expectations determines our "Tendency"—that is, whether we fit into the category of Upholder, Questioner, Obliger, or Rebel.

(https://api.gretchenrubin.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/05/4T-all.jpeg)
Took the quiz and got "Questioner," which was my guess before I took it.
But wasn't necessary- would go in this order for me: Questioner->Rebel->Obliger->Upholder

Quote from: greg on October 05, 2021, 08:23:35 PM
https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/RIASEC/

Realistic      2
Investigative      31
Artistic      27
Social      15
Enterprising      12
Conventional      6

Quote from: Florestan on October 20, 2021, 05:08:37 AM
Realistic      2
Investigative      31
Artistic      27
Social      15
Enterprising      12
Conventional      6

Realistic 13
Investigative 14
Artistic 10
Social 5
Enterprising 2
Conventional 23

Quote from: OrchestralNut on October 20, 2021, 05:37:24 AM
Realistic 13
Investigative 14
Artistic 10
Social 5
Enterprising 2
Conventional 23

Realistic   0
Investigative   17
Artistic   24
Social   6
Enterprising   0
Conventional   12

Took the official enneagram tritype test (from here: https://enneagramtritypetest.com )

Got 458. It's gained a nickname as the "darkest tritype" lol.

That was kind of a wild test, idk what to think about it. On the main quiz, I get 5-4-1-8, so wanted to see which one I'd get here. Tbh, 4-5-8 is kind of the coolest possible tritype, so what if what's correct is just what you think is the coolest one, and that's really how you should type?

So the test involves selecting cards on how much they resonate with you, and ordering them in a duel. This one came out on top and tore up the competition:

And below that is a description of types 4,5, and 8:


Someone's interpretation of that archetype:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/65owl7/458_archetype_description/

Kinda impressed how much it resonated reading that, almost like they are some sort of ghost following me around!  :D


Favorite line from there:

Quotemore introverted, but definitely not shy

ALWAYS have been annoyed at society not making the distinction, my whole life! Being extremely introverted does not mean shy! It just means not wanting to interact with people.

Quote from: OrchestralNut on October 20, 2021, 05:37:24 AM
Realistic 13
Investigative 14
Artistic 10
Social 5
Enterprising 2
Conventional 23

Realistic 0
Investigative 17
Artistic 19
Social 0
Enterprising 0
Conventional 0


I think my main problem with personality type testing is an entirely selfish one. No test actually describes my personality accurately in the slightest. Every potentially accurate observation comes loaded with extra poison pills that make it useless for me. The whole thing feels like attempts at cold reading that don't come off. I don't think I have a particularly unusual personality type either, or am anything but an ordinary sort of person, but maybe this assessment is incorrect.

For example I get almost every possible MBTI type on different tests depending on the test—I've been scored as both ISTJ and ENFP for example—and most of this is because the questions set up false binaries. e.g., "Are you good at planning your actions out in detail beforehand, or are you good at spontaneous improvisation?" - neither. "Do you like going to parties or being alone?" - depends on the circumstances. "Do you derive your energy from being around others?" - yes, but I hate doing that. "Do you rely on thoughts or feelings?" - both? Similarly, with ennegram tests I get a different type on each test, and most of the questions are even more leading. "Are you closer to being a fun, outgoing, adventurous person, or an analytical, cerebral, cautious person?" - neither. Not to even get started on astrological signs; apparently I'm supposed to be impulsive, extraverted, fun-loving, a visionary, imaginative, and afraid of commitment, of which only the last one is accurate. Big five/five factor model is accurate in giving me low levels of everything except neuroticism, but that also doesn't tell me very much, and I have to assume there are other personality traits not described in the model.

I again have to emphasise that I am not that weird. The most unusual thing about me is that I like classical music.

I'm sure there are other reasons to be against personality testing, relating to prevalence of social stereotypes about particular groups of people etc, and I know clinical psychologists don't like them much either, but my first reaction is always knee-jerk negative for this particular reason.

Realistic 4
Investigative 12
Artistic 22
Social 23
Enterprising 25
Conventional 3

So I'm an unconventional unrealistic arts impresario with limited stamina for investigating new things. AMW -- I shall fix up a recital tour for you straight away. I'll go to all the parties, you just practise at home, investigating arty things. I only want 15%.

Quote from: Mandryka on October 25, 2021, 08:50:02 AM
Realistic 4
Investigative 12
Artistic 22
Social 23
Enterprising 25
Conventional 3

So I'm an unconventional unrealistic arts impresario with limited stamina for investigating new things. AMW -- I shall fix up a recital tour for you straight away. I'll go to all the parties, you just practise at home, investigating arty things. I only want 15%.

See, one reason you also need the "Realistic" skill is because that's what allows you to sit at home practicing! I'm happy to give a recital tour where I simply sightread music quite badly, though. If I add enough investigative research I can convince the audience it's more historically accurate this way.

Quote from: amw on October 25, 2021, 08:39:06 AM
Realistic 0
Investigative 17
Artistic 19
Social 0
Enterprising 0
Conventional 0


I think my main problem with personality type testing is an entirely selfish one. No test actually describes my personality accurately in the slightest. Every potentially accurate observation comes loaded with extra poison pills that make it useless for me. The whole thing feels like attempts at cold reading that don't come off. I don't think I have a particularly unusual personality type either, or am anything but an ordinary sort of person, but maybe this assessment is incorrect.

For example I get almost every possible MBTI type on different tests depending on the test—I've been scored as both ISTJ and ENFP for example—and most of this is because the questions set up false binaries. e.g., "Are you good at planning your actions out in detail beforehand, or are you good at spontaneous improvisation?" - neither. "Do you like going to parties or being alone?" - depends on the circumstances. "Do you derive your energy from being around others?" - yes, but I hate doing that. "Do you rely on thoughts or feelings?" - both? Similarly, with ennegram tests I get a different type on each test, and most of the questions are even more leading. "Are you closer to being a fun, outgoing, adventurous person, or an analytical, cerebral, cautious person?" - neither. Not to even get started on astrological signs; apparently I'm supposed to be impulsive, extraverted, fun-loving, a visionary, imaginative, and afraid of commitment, of which only the last one is accurate. Big five/five factor model is accurate in giving me low levels of everything except neuroticism, but that also doesn't tell me very much, and I have to assume there are other personality traits not described in the model.

I again have to emphasise that I am not that weird. The most unusual thing about me is that I like classical music.

I'm sure there are other reasons to be against personality testing, relating to prevalence of social stereotypes about particular groups of people etc, and I know clinical psychologists don't like them much either, but my first reaction is always knee-jerk negative for this particular reason.

Oh, I totally get what you mean.

Theoretically, it seems everyone has a type (because nothing is perfectly balanced), but the problem is, if you are just naturally more balanced then it's extremely hard to see due to being such a tiny inbalance, and probably totally pointless to even take any of the tests or really get into it.

Then there is the question- what does it mean to "be" a type- is it what you are doing, or what you feel on the inside? (feeling like if it's the former, then my enneagram tritype is 541, but if it's the latter, it's a 458).

Quote from: amw on October 25, 2021, 08:39:06 AMI think my main problem with personality type testing is an entirely selfish one. No test actually describes my personality accurately in the slightest. Every potentially accurate observation comes loaded with extra poison pills that make it useless for me. The whole thing feels like attempts at cold reading that don't come off. I don't think I have a particularly unusual personality type either, or am anything but an ordinary sort of person, but maybe this assessment is incorrect.

For example I get almost every possible MBTI type on different tests depending on the test—I've been scored as both ISTJ and ENFP for example—and most of this is because the questions set up false binaries. e.g., "Are you good at planning your actions out in detail beforehand, or are you good at spontaneous improvisation?" - neither. "Do you like going to parties or being alone?" - depends on the circumstances. "Do you derive your energy from being around others?" - yes, but I hate doing that. "Do you rely on thoughts or feelings?" - both? Similarly, with ennegram tests I get a different type on each test, and most of the questions are even more leading. "Are you closer to being a fun, outgoing, adventurous person, or an analytical, cerebral, cautious person?" - neither. Not to even get started on astrological signs; apparently I'm supposed to be impulsive, extraverted, fun-loving, a visionary, imaginative, and afraid of commitment, of which only the last one is accurate. Big five/five factor model is accurate in giving me low levels of everything except neuroticism, but that also doesn't tell me very much, and I have to assume there are other personality traits not described in the model.

I again have to emphasise that I am not that weird. The most unusual thing about me is that I like classical music.

I'm sure there are other reasons to be against personality testing, relating to prevalence of social stereotypes about particular groups of people etc, and I know clinical psychologists don't like them much either, but my first reaction is always knee-jerk negative for this particular reason.

MBTI maps people in a binary 4D mesh:

You can be I*** or E***
You can be *S** or *N**
You can be **T* or **F*
You can be ***J or ***P

Now, nobody is 100 % of any particular choice. In fact we can be anything, but being something that is not most natural to you drains your mental energy fast. The "mode" of you that drains least of your mental energy is your personality type. Some people are in the middle of a certain axis. For example I am near the border of ***J and ***P, maybe a little more ***J, but I clearly have tendencies of ***P too. That's why I am INTJ/P. I am clearly an introvert, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy company of other people (I have it easy being with one person, but being in a group of people drains my mental battery super-fast!). I am also clearly an INT*.

It is possible you are near the border of all 4 axes and that's why it is difficult for you to have consistent results that make sense. Try figuring out which of these axes puts you most clearly on one side. That is one step of knowing yourself better and then you might find it easier to answer the "it depends" questions. We can be this or that in various situations if needed, but what kind of situations do you hate the most? I feel miserable in a large group of people even when it is celebration and people are supposed to feel good, while I don't really feel miserable alone. I am happy in my own thoughts, inside my head. That tells me I am clearly an introvert and the tests I have taken strongly support that. For me the J/P part was a struggle, but then I accepted I am near the "border" and that's that. At least I know I am not heavily J or P. I am weakly both and I think this actually explains well the lack of achievements in my life and my neurosis over that fact. (J types achieve things, P types do not. The J in me wants to achieve stuff while the P keeps me from achieving. I think my internal conflicts with myself comes from J and P fighting each other. As for the INT* part is concerned, my mind has peace.)

Quote from: 71 dB on October 25, 2021, 03:33:44 PM
(J types achieve things, P types do not. The J in me wants to achieve stuff while the P keeps me from achieving. I think my internal conflicts with myself comes from J and P fighting each other. As for the INT* part is concerned, my mind has peace.)

I think it's a conflict between novelty-seeking and consistency.

I'm around the middle, too, I can draw up a plan to be consistent with something every day, but some days just don't feel like doing something, so I don't. Because on the path to achievement lies a lot of repetitive work that you might not feel inspired to do every day, so you sit around watching youtube or learning the basics of some random language like Thai or something- but then after that, your brain can recharge and feel ready to get back into what you were doing before.

Then again, I remember your explanation of it and it seemed to be a different reason.

Also, I'm probably around the middle in regards to Thinking vs. Feeling- and I think the way they describe feeling types is WAY wrong on sites like the official MBTI test, more likely I lean toward more of a feeler type but don't relate to the description and don't get that result in the test. So yeah, just having INxx as a type isn't very informative, so other systems have been much more insightful for me.

Quote from: greg on October 25, 2021, 10:00:43 PM
I think it's a conflict between novelty-seeking and consistency.

Yes, but how this manifests itself in various personality types is propably different.

Quote from: greg on October 25, 2021, 10:00:43 PM
I'm around the middle, too, I can draw up a plan to be consistent with something every day, but some days just don't feel like doing something, so I don't. Because on the path to achievement lies a lot of repetitive work that you might not feel inspired to do every day, so you sit around watching youtube or learning the basics of some random language like Thai or something- but then after that, your brain can recharge and feel ready to get back into what you were doing before.

Yeah.

Quote from: greg on October 25, 2021, 10:00:43 PMThen again, I remember your explanation of it and it seemed to be a different reason.

This J/P divide and what it causes in me is my new idea, which might be wrong. My intuitive mind came up with it while I was posting and now my thinking mind has to process it. These are very complex issues, because we aren't talking about how audio speakers work. We are talking about how human beings work! The interaction of cognitive functions is very complex The goal is to understand ourselves, not MBTI which is just a simplified tool to understand human beings.

Quote from: greg on October 25, 2021, 10:00:43 PMAlso, I'm probably around the middle in regards to Thinking vs. Feeling- and I think the way they describe feeling types is WAY wrong on sites like the official MBTI test, more likely I lean toward more of a feeler type but don't relate to the description and don't get that result in the test. So yeah, just having INxx as a type isn't very informative, so other systems have been much more insightful for me.

A thinker can experience a lot of strong feelings, but is nevertheless a thinker if he/she bases his/her decisions on logical thinking rather than feelings. In fact a thinker is likely to be bad at controlling feelings so that thinkers may express their feelings strongly in situations were controlling feelings becomes too difficult for them. Similarly feelers probably have tons of logic based thoughts, but it is chaotic and they need their feelings to force their thoughts into an order that feels right.

When making decisions, thinkers ask: "Does morality make sense in this case?" while feelers ask: "Is it moral or amoral to do the logical thing in this case?"

We all have all the colours, but our personality comes from what roles those colors play for us. This makes it difficult to see what we are, because at first we see all the colors in us, but being honest to ourselves makes it possible to recognize the roles these colors play. At least for me the E/I axis has been always very clear. I knew I was an introvert when I learned about the concepts of extroversy and introversy. In that sense I have known myself well for decades, but that was only 25 % of MBTI. I never thought I was intuitive, but apparently I am and it does explain well how I process information. Since I am *N** I am not *S** meaning my physical interaction with the World around me is glumsy. This is true. I am sensitive to loud noises, bright lights and cold/hot water on my skin. I have to adjust he temperature of shower water just right for it to be comfortable for me. Learning to dance or play musical instruments is probably near impossible for me. For me pianists are super-humans. How can anyone control their fingers that well? All that stuff typical to having Asperger's. I even think Asperger's is a consequence of being an INTJ or INTP, the same damn thing!

Quote from: 71 dB on October 26, 2021, 03:46:29 AM
A thinker can experience a lot of strong feelings, but is nevertheless a thinker if he/she bases his/her decisions on logical thinking rather than feelings. In fact a thinker is likely to be bad at controlling feelings so that thinkers may express their feelings strongly in situations were controlling feelings becomes too difficult for them. Similarly feelers probably have tons of logic based thoughts, but it is chaotic and they need their feelings to force their thoughts into an order that feels right.

When making decisions, thinkers ask: "Does morality make sense in this case?" while feelers ask: "Is it moral or amoral to do the logical thing in this case?"

Seems accurate.

Quote from: 71 dB on October 26, 2021, 03:46:29 AM
I never thought I was intuitive, but apparently I am and it does explain well how I process information. Since I am *N** I am not *S** meaning my physical interaction with the World around me is glumsy. This is true. I am sensitive to loud noises, bright lights and cold/hot water on my skin. I have to adjust he temperature of shower water just right for it to be comfortable for me. Learning to dance or play musical instruments is probably near impossible for me. For me pianists are super-humans. How can anyone control their fingers that well? All that stuff typical to having Asperger's. I even think Asperger's is a consequence of being an INTJ or INTP, the same damn thing!

This is one of those things that I think are misleading/inaccurate, though. Maybe statistically there could be a correlation? But personally it can misrepresent a lot of people, including me.

I was always an excellent speller and at the age of 16 (intuition is associated with dyslexia), and I was already shredding at guitar and got compliments in the music stores despite playing guitar only three years. There's no correlation. Think of someone like Franz Liszt, wildly creative yet at the same time an insanely impressive musician- you can do both. Also was into playing sports when I was young.

To solidify my point- surely you can tell by my posts I'm intuitive-dom? I was typed by OPS as lead Ni, also every single MBTI I score high on intuition and on the Big 5 always score high on Openness to Experience (which corresponds to intuition). So this doesn't apply to me at all. I'm not even writing this post in order, jumping around between different paragraphs (usually I write this way), which is typically of intuitives. It can cause problems- once, at my previous job I was asked to front-face an aisle of cleaning products and I skipped around randomly, just organizing by instinct, and my manager comes and yells at me, thinking I was organizing in order (thus missing half of everything). When I was just going to back and front-face everything randomly (think, like a game of whack-a-mole)- oh yeah, and analogies like that, intuitives abuse them to death because they are focusing on the "overview."

OPS defines intuition vs. sensing as "overview" vs. "proof."

Another example- when studying a new subject in school, did you ever flip through the textbook and preview different topics out of sheer curiosity? IMO that is intuitive-dom. Did you feel that doing the same type of math problems over and over again is extremely tedious and boring? IMO that is intuitive-dom.

Took another tritype test and got 458.
Usually, it's referred to "The Scholar," one person mentioned it should be called "The Iconoclast" which describes 5w4 usually- that name is the best one IMO.


But it's amusing to see the different nicknames, just personal interpretations people have:

https://www.enneagrammer.com/-blog/trifix-nicknames

Quote458 The Demon

internal havoc, non-corporeal evil, possession, the three darkest fixes

A few more funny ones...

my brother's tritype:

Quote269 The Stockholm Syndrome

perhaps a harsh characterization, but defining the sense of triple "niceness" that comes with this combination

Quote147 The Lunatic

triple frustration, a combination of opposing energies, unsettling

Quote258 The Monk

triple rejection, offerings

Quote358 The Serial Killer

also a harsh characterization, but defining the sense of this combo having no natural sense of warm humanness, similar to 135, but with a martian (of the planet Mars) impetus, like a robotic Ares

Quote379 The Sex

BHE has called this trifix the DJ which I love, but I tend to think The Sex somehow hits it more on the head; the three fixes that are exhibitionistic; natural sex appeal; the sense that clothes could come off at any second and it's not a big deal; bodies are "fun"

edit: I just now thought of the best nickname so far for 458- the Black Mage.

Anyone who doesn't play RPG's might not have an idea about that... never really played much of Black Mage in FF14, but conceptually it's really cool. Also Yoshi P's favorite job (the lead developer of the game).
Damage-dealer black magic spells is cool, but really have only focused on melee damage jobs (Samurai, Monk, etc.)

may think of a better nickname in the future, though...

The ennegram (sp?) thing is interesting; I've looked into it a little bit and it does seem to account for the fact that people can have multiple sets of core values/beliefs/etc. A couple of online tests even repurpose one of the types to just be "everyone who doesn't fit into the other eight types". Don't think any of our descriptions applies to you? You're probably a type 6! Neat way of covering all the bases.

I think mostly it just assumes that people act in a way that is congruent with their core values, and we don't. To give examples from the various tests I subjected myself to:

Type 1: Correct in that I am hypercritical, judgmental and perfectionistic. Do I actually live up to these standards? No. I am also self-indulgent, impulsive, oversensitive to criticism and never put any effort into anything.
Type 2: Correct in that this is what I believe; life is fundamentally about relationships with others, and the ideal person is one who cares for others and puts work into these relationships, even at expense of their own needs. Do I actually do this? Again, no. I avoid others because dealing with them is too much work and heartache. I'm well aware this is wrong.
Type 4: Correct in that I do behave in a self-centered, immature, hypersensitive manner. Does this accord with my values? Not at all. Nor does this make me special or unique; lots of people are hypocrites.
Type 6: Correct in that this type is functionally meaningless as per above. But the one consistent claim about this type, regardless of everything else, is some kind of loyalty to friends, family, community or "tradition". Do I have this? No.
Type 7: Correct in that I'm lazy and avoid negative emotions. But the other consistent claim about this type is that such people are optimistic and fun-loving. Do I have this? No. I like staying at home and maybe sleeping.
Type 9: Correct in that I'm terminally conflict-avoidant, don't have a strong sense of self, and use addictions to avoid problems. Again, does this accord with my values? Not at all.

My final judgment is that it's cold reading, and frustrating cold reading at that because it doesn't provide either comfort or connection. But I guess looking to psychology in general for help, self-knowledge, insight or advice is something I could have predicted to be useless, since it can by nature never match connecting, and building intimate relationships, with other people.

Quote from: amw on October 31, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
I think mostly it just assumes that people act in a way that is congruent with their core values, and we don't.

This, IMO, might be some good insight that is overlooked in typology communities. It's something that definitely makes typing more difficult, too.

There's also the cold reality that one's values or behaviors might change on the environment. They might need to change for your survival. Or... sometimes different values that pre-exist in you are brought out because of your environment.

So that leads to the questions, are any quizzes really truly accurate (because they are asking about behavior)? We aren't entirely our environment- there's innate attributes as well. That's what tests should be tracking, but they tend to track "how have you been behaving?" which is probably the wrong question.

Example, a psychopath won't become a murderer usually if there's no reward for it (although I have heard of at least one case where they have murdered to get rid of boredom, though I strongly suspect they are also low-functioning/low intelligence). But if they had to kill, they would feel no remorse unlike a neurotypical- so there IS a difference, considering two people may have been raised in the same environment- and can be picked up on a brain scan.

Quote from: amw on October 31, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
Type 1: Correct in that I am hypercritical, judgmental and perfectionistic. Do I actually live up to these standards? No. I am also self-indulgent, impulsive, oversensitive to criticism and never put any effort into anything.
Type 2: Correct in that this is what I believe; life is fundamentally about relationships with others, and the ideal person is one who cares for others and puts work into these relationships, even at expense of their own needs. Do I actually do this? Again, no. I avoid others because dealing with them is too much work and heartache. I'm well aware this is wrong.
Type 4: Correct in that I do behave in a self-centered, immature, hypersensitive manner. Does this accord with my values? Not at all. Nor does this make me special or unique; lots of people are hypocrites.
Type 6: Correct in that this type is functionally meaningless as per above. But the one consistent claim about this type, regardless of everything else, is some kind of loyalty to friends, family, community or "tradition". Do I have this? No.
Type 7: Correct in that I'm lazy and avoid negative emotions. But the other consistent claim about this type is that such people are optimistic and fun-loving. Do I have this? No. I like staying at home and maybe sleeping.
Type 9: Correct in that I'm terminally conflict-avoidant, don't have a strong sense of self, and use addictions to avoid problems. Again, does this accord with my values? Not at all.

My final judgment is that it's cold reading, and frustrating cold reading at that because it doesn't provide either comfort or connection. But I guess looking to psychology in general for help, self-knowledge, insight or advice is something I could have predicted to be useless, since it can by nature never match connecting, and building intimate relationships, with other people.

When it comes to a tangled mess of analyzing, then idk, if you want you can just read up about all 9 as archetypes and see what clicks the most. Not logically, don't think much about, just build a picture of each as a character and see which vibes just work for you.

The Katherine Fauvre tritype test is the closest I've seen that takes that approach, but it totally isn't necessary.

But yeah, it's still all just an approximation like the entire realm of psychology.



edit: also one more thought, to see which is prioritized, you might have to ask some extreme questions. Like the one I've found fascinating- think I made a topic about it- Isolation vs. Competition vs. Hive Mind. If there is a preference, it could point to an enneagram type.
Hive Mind pointing to type 9 (i asked my brother this question, he picked it and is type 9- really seems to fit)
Isolation pointing to type 5 (was my selection, and my main or secondary type)
Competition pointing to type 8
(for example)
the point being... they are all bad and undesirable, but which ones are you able to stomach the least (or most)? It would reveal some sort of innate potential energy, I think, which should be understood as your actual personality.

Realistic: 19
Investigative: 31
Artistic: 32
Social: 20
Enterprising: 7
Conventional: 2

Wouldn't have pegged myself for such a realist  :laugh:

I've been working on an idea of trityping music the last two hours, really cool but probably a waste of time lol

put every type and give it one adjective, then use it to describe either pieces of music, or broadly a composer's tendencies to make music which way.

Also found this (see attached), very interesting.

(last attachment, three wouldn't fit)

Found an entirely new typing system when I thought I already found them all. It's called Attitudinal Psyche.

It categories your attitude towards four different aspects- Emotion (E), Logic (L), Physical Environment (F), and Volition (V).
Your type is ranked from most confident to least confident/rigid/unapologetic.

For example, the type I got is EVFL, so the most confident/rigid/unapologetic is Emotions, the least is Logic.


Test is here:
https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/take-the-test/

My results:
https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/personality-profiles/dio/evfl/


So far, seems accurate, but need to learn a bit more still and think about it a bit more to know for sure.

It would have been useful if you could rank all four aspects in the insecure position. Not everyone has a "confident" or "flexible" aspect.

I revisited the 300 question IPIP out of curiosity (http://www.personal.psu.edu/~j5j/IPIP/ipipneo300.htm (http://www.personal.psu.edu/~j5j/IPIP/ipipneo300.htm)), and also partly as a palate cleanser. My results are always the same (low OCEA, high N), because it's a more reliable scientific instrument, but examining the facets of the results did give some explanation for why other personality tests get things wrong. For example:
With openness (O) I score very low on the facet of Artistic Interest, since music is the only art I'm interested in, and also very low on both Emotionality and Intellect—thus why the MBTI, for example, can never determine my position in the T/F element—but very high on Liberalism (which, psychologically speaking, refers to an inability/lack of desire to follow rules, conventions and norms).
Extraversion (E) is low overall but I do score high on two facets (Gregariousness, i.e., deriving stimulation from the company of others, and Excitement-seeking, i.e., being easily bored).
With agreeableness (A) I score high on three facets (Cooperation, Modesty, Sympathy) but the average remains low because of very low scores on the other three facets (Trust, Morality, Altruism).
Neuroticism (N) maxes out the scale on five of the six aspects, i.e., surpassing the measuring capacity of the test and entering levels of clinical significance, which I was already aware of, but the sixth facet (Anger) has dropped to within the subclinical levels measurable by the test; conscientiousness (C) maxes out the scale in the opposite direction with all facets essentially zero, thereby also entering levels of clinical significance. This explains why personality tests cannot accurately "type" me when they test for facets of these particular factors (e.g., the J/P element of the MBTI), as they are based on averages from the general population, which I'm not part of.

Quote from: amw on November 07, 2021, 11:24:13 PM
It would have been useful if you could rank all four aspects in the insecure position. Not everyone has a "confident" or "flexible" aspect.

Still trying to understand this system, brand new to it so not entirely sure what you mean by that.
It gave me "confident" for all 4 aspects. And 854 tritype. At least the tritype is close, should be more like 548 or 458 though.
(though thinking about the type 8, sp/sx is definitely a million times more suitable than the other subtypes... trying to look into more what the 8 sp actually is)

Quote from: amw on November 07, 2021, 11:24:13 PM
I revisited the 300 question IPIP out of curiosity (http://www.personal.psu.edu/~j5j/IPIP/ipipneo300.htm (http://www.personal.psu.edu/~j5j/IPIP/ipipneo300.htm)), and also partly as a palate cleanser. My results are always the same (low OCEA, high N), because it's a more reliable scientific instrument, but examining the facets of the results did give some explanation for why other personality tests get things wrong. For example:
With openness (O) I score very low on the facet of Artistic Interest, since music is the only art I'm interested in, and also very low on both Emotionality and Intellect—thus why the MBTI, for example, can never determine my position in the T/F element—but very high on Liberalism (which, psychologically speaking, refers to an inability/lack of desire to follow rules, conventions and norms).
Extraversion (E) is low overall but I do score high on two facets (Gregariousness, i.e., deriving stimulation from the company of others, and Excitement-seeking, i.e., being easily bored).
With agreeableness (A) I score high on three facets (Cooperation, Modesty, Sympathy) but the average remains low because of very low scores on the other three facets (Trust, Morality, Altruism).
Neuroticism (N) maxes out the scale on five of the six aspects, i.e., surpassing the measuring capacity of the test and entering levels of clinical significance, which I was already aware of, but the sixth facet (Anger) has dropped to within the subclinical levels measurable by the test; conscientiousness (C) maxes out the scale in the opposite direction with all facets essentially zero, thereby also entering levels of clinical significance. This explains why personality tests cannot accurately "type" me when they test for facets of these particular factors (e.g., the J/P element of the MBTI), as they are based on averages from the general population, which I'm not part of.

Quote from: amw on November 07, 2021, 11:24:13 PM
as they are based on averages from the general population, which I'm not part of.

oh, not sure i understand that part... not apart of the general population? Fellow alien from Xyqwoxia?  :D

Sounds like this test is good for you, then.

Quote from: amw on November 07, 2021, 11:24:13 PM
I revisited the 300 question IPIP out of curiosity (http://www.personal.psu.edu/~j5j/IPIP/ipipneo300.htm (http://www.personal.psu.edu/~j5j/IPIP/ipipneo300.htm)), and also partly as a palate cleanser. My

Ha, this was like an OCEAN test on steroids.
Will post my results on the next post.

IPIP-NEO Narrative Report
NOTE: The report sent to your computer screen upon the completion of the IPIP-NEO is only a temporary web page. When you exit your web browser you will not be able to return to this URL to re-access your report. No copies of the report are sent to anyone. IF YOU WANT A PERMANENT COPY OF THE REPORT, YOU MUST SAVE THE WEB PAGE TO YOUR HARD DRIVE OR OTHER STORAGE MEDIUM, AND/OR PRINT THE REPORT WHILE YOU ARE STILL VIEWING IT IN YOUR WEB BROWSER. Probably the best way to save the report is to select and copy the entire page (Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C on most browsers), paste it into a word processor, and save the document.
This report compares ibanezmonster from the country USA to other adult men.

This report estimates the individual's level on each of the five broad personality domains of the Five-Factor Model. The description of each one of the five broad domains is followed by a more detailed description of personality according to the six subdomains that comprise each domain.

A note on terminology. Personality traits describe, relative to other people, the frequency or intensity of a person's feelings, thoughts, or behaviors. Possession of a trait is therefore a matter of degree. We might describe two individuals as extraverts, but still see one as more extraverted than the other. This report uses expressions such as "extravert" or "high in extraversion" to describe someone who is likely to be seen by others as relatively extraverted. The computer program that generates this report classifies you as low, average, or high in a trait according to whether your score is approximately in the lowest 30%, middle 40%, or highest 30% of scores obtained by people of your sex and roughly your age. Your numerical scores are reported and graphed as percentile estimates. For example, a score of "60" means that your level on that trait is estimated to be higher than 60% of persons of your sex and age.

Please keep in mind that "low," "average," and "high" scores on a personality test are neither absolutely good nor bad. A particular level on any trait will probably be neutral or irrelevant for a great many activities, be helpful for accomplishing some things, and detrimental for accomplishing other things. As with any personality inventory, scores and descriptions can only approximate an individual's actual personality. High and low score descriptions are usually accurate, but average scores close to the low or high boundaries might misclassify you as only average. On each set of six subdomain scales it is somewhat uncommon but certainly possible to score high in some of the subdomains and low in the others. In such cases more attention should be paid to the subdomain scores than to the broad domain score. Questions about the accuracy of your results are best resolved by showing your report to people who know you well.

John A. Johnson wrote descriptions of the five domains and thirty subdomains. These descriptions are based on an extensive reading of the scientific literature on personality measurement. Although Dr. Johnson would like to be acknowledged as the author of these materials if they are reproduced, he has placed them in the public domain.

Extraversion
Extraversion is marked by pronounced engagement with the external world. Extraverts enjoy being with people, are full of energy, and often experience positive emotions. They tend to be enthusiastic, action-oriented, individuals who are likely to say "Yes!" or "Let's go!" to opportunities for excitement. In groups they like to talk, assert themselves, and draw attention to themselves.
Introverts lack the exuberance, energy, and activity levels of extraverts. They tend to be quiet, low-key, deliberate, and disengaged from the social world. Their lack of social involvement should not be interpreted as shyness or depression; the introvert simply needs less stimulation than an extravert and prefers to be alone. The independence and reserve of the introvert is sometimes mistaken as unfriendliness or arrogance. In reality, an introvert who scores high on the agreeableness dimension will not seek others out but will be quite pleasant when approached.

DOMAIN/Facet   Score   
EXTRAVERSION   26   
..Friendliness   24   
..Gregariousness   10   
..Assertiveness   33   
..Activity Level   46   
..Excitement-Seeking   64   
..Cheerfulness   28   
Your score on Extraversion is low, indicating you are introverted, reserved, and quiet. You enjoy solitude and solitary activities. Your socializing tends to be restricted to a few close friends.

Extraversion Facets
Friendliness. Friendly people genuinely like other people and openly demonstrate positive feelings toward others. They make friends quickly and it is easy for them to form close, intimate relationships. Low scorers on Friendliness are not necessarily cold and hostile, but they do not reach out to others and are perceived as distant and reserved. Your level of friendliness is low.
Gregariousness. Gregarious people find the company of others pleasantly stimulating and rewarding. They enjoy the excitement of crowds. Low scorers tend to feel overwhelmed by, and therefore actively avoid, large crowds. They do not necessarily dislike being with people sometimes, but their need for privacy and time to themselves is much greater than for individuals who score high on this scale. Your level of gregariousness is low.
Assertiveness. High scorers Assertiveness like to speak out, take charge, and direct the activities of others. They tend to be leaders in groups. Low scorers tend not to talk much and let others control the activities of groups. Your level of assertiveness is average.
Activity Level. Active individuals lead fast-paced, busy lives. They move about quickly, energetically, and vigorously, and they are involved in many activities. People who score low on this scale follow a slower and more leisurely, relaxed pace. Your activity level is average.
Excitement-Seeking. High scorers on this scale are easily bored without high levels of stimulation. They love bright lights and hustle and bustle. They are likely to take risks and seek thrills. Low scorers are overwhelmed by noise and commotion and are averse to thrill-seeking. Your level of excitement-seeking is average.
Cheerfulness. This scale measures positive mood and feelings, not negative emotions (which are a part of the Neuroticism domain). Persons who score high on this scale typically experience a range of positive feelings, including happiness, enthusiasm, optimism, and joy. Low scorers are not as prone to such energetic, high spirits. Your level of positive emotions is low.
Agreeableness
Agreeableness reflects individual differences in concern with cooperation and social harmony. Agreeable individuals value getting along with others. They are therefore considerate, friendly, generous, helpful, and willing to compromise their interests with others'. Agreeable people also have an optimistic view of human nature. They believe people are basically honest, decent, and trustworthy.
Disagreeable individuals place self-interest above getting along with others. They are generally unconcerned with others' well-being, and therefore are unlikely to extend themselves for other people. Sometimes their skepticism about others' motives causes them to be suspicious, unfriendly, and uncooperative.

Agreeableness is obviously advantageous for attaining and maintaining popularity. Agreeable people are better liked than disagreeable people. On the other hand, agreeableness is not useful in situations that require tough or absolute objective decisions. Disagreeable people can make excellent scientists, critics, or soldiers.

DOMAIN/Facet   Score   
AGREEABLENESS   20   
..Trust   37   
..Morality   54   
..Altruism   12   
..Cooperation   31   
..Modesty   32   
..Sympathy   15   
Your score on Agreeableness is low, indicating less concern with others' needs Than with your own. People see you as tough, critical, and uncompromising.

Agreeableness Facets
Trust. A person with high trust assumes that most people are fair, honest, and have good intentions. Persons low in trust see others as selfish, devious, and potentially dangerous. Your level of trust is average.
Morality. High scorers on this scale see no need for pretense or manipulation when dealing with others and are therefore candid, frank, and sincere. Low scorers believe that a certain amount of deception in social relationships is necessary. People find it relatively easy to relate to the straightforward high-scorers on this scale. They generally find it more difficult to relate to the unstraightforward low-scorers on this scale. It should be made clear that low scorers are not unprincipled or immoral; they are simply more guarded and less willing to openly reveal the whole truth. Your level of morality is average.
Altruism. Altruistic people find helping other people genuinely rewarding. Consequently, they are generally willing to assist those who are in need. Altruistic people find that doing things for others is a form of self-fulfillment rather than self-sacrifice. Low scorers on this scale do not particularly like helping those in need. Requests for help feel like an imposition rather than an opportunity for self-fulfillment. Your level of altruism is low.
Cooperation. Individuals who score high on this scale dislike confrontations. They are perfectly willing to compromise or to deny their own needs in order to get along with others. Those who score low on this scale are more likely to intimidate others to get their way. Your level of cooperation is low.
Modesty. High scorers on this scale do not like to claim that they are better than other people. In some cases this attitude may derive from low self-confidence or self-esteem. Nonetheless, some people with high self-esteem find immodesty unseemly. Those who are willing to describe themselves as superior tend to be seen as disagreeably arrogant by other people. Your level of modesty is low.
Sympathy. People who score high on this scale are tenderhearted and compassionate. They feel the pain of others vicariously and are easily moved to pity. Low scorers are not affected strongly by human suffering. They pride themselves on making objective judgments based on reason. They are more concerned with truth and impartial justice than with mercy. Your level of tender-mindedness is low.
Conscientiousness
Conscientiousness concerns the way in which we control, regulate, and direct our impulses. Impulses are not inherently bad; occasionally time constraints require a snap decision, and acting on our first impulse can be an effective response. Also, in times of play rather than work, acting spontaneously and impulsively can be fun. Impulsive individuals can be seen by others as colorful, fun-to-be-with, and zany.
Nonetheless, acting on impulse can lead to trouble in a number of ways. Some impulses are antisocial. Uncontrolled antisocial acts not only harm other members of society, but also can result in retribution toward the perpetrator of such impulsive acts. Another problem with impulsive acts is that they often produce immediate rewards but undesirable, long-term consequences. Examples include excessive socializing that leads to being fired from one's job, hurling an insult that causes the breakup of an important relationship, or using pleasure-inducing drugs that eventually destroy one's health.

Impulsive behavior, even when not seriously destructive, diminishes a person's effectiveness in significant ways. Acting impulsively disallows contemplating alternative courses of action, some of which would have been wiser than the impulsive choice. Impulsivity also sidetracks people during projects that require organized sequences of steps or stages. Accomplishments of an impulsive person are therefore small, scattered, and inconsistent.

A hallmark of intelligence, what potentially separates human beings from earlier life forms, is the ability to think about future consequences before acting on an impulse. Intelligent activity involves contemplation of long-range goals, organizing and planning routes to these goals, and persisting toward one's goals in the face of short-lived impulses to the contrary. The idea that intelligence involves impulse control is nicely captured by the term prudence, an alternative label for the Conscientiousness domain. Prudent means both wise and cautious. Persons who score high on the Conscientiousness scale are, in fact, perceived by others as intelligent.

The benefits of high conscientiousness are obvious. Conscientious individuals avoid trouble and achieve high levels of success through purposeful planning and persistence. They are also positively regarded by others as intelligent and reliable. On the negative side, they can be compulsive perfectionists and workaholics. Furthermore, extremely conscientious individuals might be regarded as stuffy and boring. Unconscientious people may be criticized for their unreliability, lack of ambition, and failure to stay within the lines, but they will experience many short-lived pleasures and they will never be called stuffy.

DOMAIN/Facet   Score   
CONSCIENTIOUSNESS   37   
..Self-Efficacy   39   
..Orderliness   45   
..Dutifulness   27   
..Achievement-Striving   28   
..Self-Discipline   36   
..Cautiousness   62   
Your score on Conscientiousness is average. This means you are reasonably reliable, organized, and self-controlled.

Conscientiousness Facets
Self-Efficacy. Self-Efficacy describes confidence in one's ability to accomplish things. High scorers believe they have the intelligence (common sense), drive, and self-control necessary for achieving success. Low scorers do not feel effective, and may have a sense that they are not in control of their lives. Your level of self-efficacy is average.
Orderliness. Persons with high scores on orderliness are well-organized. They like to live according to routines and schedules. They keep lists and make plans. Low scorers tend to be disorganized and scattered. Your level of orderliness is average.
Dutifulness. This scale reflects the strength of a person's sense of duty and obligation. Those who score high on this scale have a strong sense of moral obligation. Low scorers find contracts, rules, and regulations overly confining. They are likely to be seen as unreliable or even irresponsible. Your level of dutifulness is low.
Achievement-Striving. Individuals who score high on this scale strive hard to achieve excellence. Their drive to be recognized as successful keeps them on track toward their lofty goals. They often have a strong sense of direction in life, but extremely high scores may be too single-minded and obsessed with their work. Low scorers are content to get by with a minimal amount of work, and might be seen by others as lazy. Your level of achievement striving is low.
Self-Discipline. Self-discipline-what many people call will-power-refers to the ability to persist at difficult or unpleasant tasks until they are completed. People who possess high self-discipline are able to overcome reluctance to begin tasks and stay on track despite distractions. Those with low self-discipline procrastinate and show poor follow-through, often failing to complete tasks-even tasks they want very much to complete. Your level of self-discipline is average.
Cautiousness. Cautiousness describes the disposition to think through possibilities before acting. High scorers on the Cautiousness scale take their time when making decisions. Low scorers often say or do first thing that comes to mind without deliberating alternatives and the probable consequences of those alternatives. Your level of cautiousness is average.
Neuroticism
Freud originally used the term neurosis to describe a condition marked by mental distress, emotional suffering, and an inability to cope effectively with the normal demands of life. He suggested that everyone shows some signs of neurosis, but that we differ in our degree of suffering and our specific symptoms of distress. Today neuroticism refers to the tendency to experience negative feelings. Those who score high on Neuroticism may experience primarily one specific negative feeling such as anxiety, anger, or depression, but are likely to experience several of these emotions. People high in neuroticism are emotionally reactive. They respond emotionally to events that would not affect most people, and their reactions tend to be more intense than normal. They are more likely to interpret ordinary situations as threatening, and minor frustrations as hopelessly difficult. Their negative emotional reactions tend to persist for unusually long periods of time, which means they are often in a bad mood. These problems in emotional regulation can diminish a neurotic's ability to think clearly, make decisions, and cope effectively with stress.
At the other end of the scale, individuals who score low in neuroticism are less easily upset and are less emotionally reactive. They tend to be calm, emotionally stable, and free from persistent negative feelings. Freedom from negative feelings does not mean that low scorers experience a lot of positive feelings; frequency of positive emotions is a component of the Extraversion domain.

DOMAIN/Facet   Score   
NEUROTICISM   69   
..Anxiety   60   
..Anger   84   
..Depression   55   
..Self-Consciousness   73   
..Immoderation   30   
..Vulnerability   82   
Your score on Neuroticism is high, indicating that you are easily upset, even by what most people consider the normal demands of living. People consider you to be sensitive and emotional.

Neuroticism Facets
Anxiety. The "fight-or-flight" system of the brain of anxious individuals is too easily and too often engaged. Therefore, people who are high in anxiety often feel like something dangerous is about to happen. They may be afraid of specific situations or be just generally fearful. They feel tense, jittery, and nervous. Persons low in Anxiety are generally calm and fearless. Your level of anxiety is average.
Anger. Persons who score high in Anger feel enraged when things do not go their way. They are sensitive about being treated fairly and feel resentful and bitter when they feel they are being cheated. This scale measures the tendency to feel angry; whether or not the person expresses annoyance and hostility depends on the individual's level on Agreeableness. Low scorers do not get angry often or easily. Your level of anger is high.
Depression. This scale measures the tendency to feel sad, dejected, and discouraged. High scorers lack energy and have difficult initiating activities. Low scorers tend to be free from these depressive feelings. Your level of depression is average.
Self-Consciousness. Self-conscious individuals are sensitive about what others think of them. Their concern about rejection and ridicule cause them to feel shy and uncomfortable around others. They are easily embarrassed and often feel ashamed. Their fears that others will criticize or make fun of them are exaggerated and unrealistic, but their awkwardness and discomfort may make these fears a self-fulfilling prophecy. Low scorers, in contrast, do not suffer from the mistaken impression that everyone is watching and judging them. They do not feel nervous in social situations. Your level of self-consciousness is high.
Immoderation. Immoderate individuals feel strong cravings and urges that they have have difficulty resisting. They tend to be oriented toward short-term pleasures and rewards rather than long- term consequences. Low scorers do not experience strong, irresistible cravings and consequently do not find themselves tempted to overindulge. Your level of immoderation is low.
Vulnerability. High scorers on Vulnerability experience panic, confusion, and helplessness when under pressure or stress. Low scorers feel more poised, confident, and clear-thinking when stressed. Your level of vulnerability is high.
Openness to Experience
Openness to Experience describes a dimension of cognitive style that distinguishes imaginative, creative people from down-to-earth, conventional people. Open people are intellectually curious, appreciative of art, and sensitive to beauty. They tend to be, compared to closed people, more aware of their feelings. They tend to think and act in individualistic and nonconforming ways. Intellectuals typically score high on Openness to Experience; consequently, this factor has also been called Culture or Intellect. Nonetheless, Intellect is probably best regarded as one aspect of openness to experience. Scores on Openness to Experience are only modestly related to years of education and scores on standard intelligent tests.
Another characteristic of the open cognitive style is a facility for thinking in symbols and abstractions far removed from concrete experience. Depending on the individual's specific intellectual abilities, this symbolic cognition may take the form of mathematical, logical, or geometric thinking, artistic and metaphorical use of language, music composition or performance, or one of the many visual or performing arts. People with low scores on openness to experience tend to have narrow, common interests. They prefer the plain, straightforward, and obvious over the complex, ambiguous, and subtle. They may regard the arts and sciences with suspicion, regarding these endeavors as abstruse or of no practical use. Closed people prefer familiarity over novelty; they are conservative and resistant to change.

Openness is often presented as healthier or more mature by psychologists, who are often themselves open to experience. However, open and closed styles of thinking are useful in different environments. The intellectual style of the open person may serve a professor well, but research has shown that closed thinking is related to superior job performance in police work, sales, and a number of service occupations.

DOMAIN/Facet   Score   
OPENNESS   82   
..Imagination   96   
..Artistic Interests   63   
..Emotionality   58   
..Adventurousness   76   
..Intellect   71   
..Liberalism   59   
Your score on Openness to Experience is high, indicating you enjoy novelty, variety, and change. You are curious, imaginative, and creative.

Openness Facets
Imagination. To imaginative individuals, the real world is often too plain and ordinary. High scorers on this scale use fantasy as a way of creating a richer, more interesting world. Low scorers are on this scale are more oriented to facts than fantasy. Your level of imagination is high.
Artistic Interests. High scorers on this scale love beauty, both in art and in nature. They become easily involved and absorbed in artistic and natural events. They are not necessarily artistically trained nor talented, although many will be. The defining features of this scale are interest in, and appreciation of natural and artificial beauty. Low scorers lack aesthetic sensitivity and interest in the arts. Your level of artistic interests is average.
Emotionality. Persons high on Emotionality have good access to and awareness of their own feelings. Low scorers are less aware of their feelings and tend not to express their emotions openly. Your level of emotionality is average.
Adventurousness. High scorers on adventurousness are eager to try new activities, travel to foreign lands, and experience different things. They find familiarity and routine boring, and will take a new route home just because it is different. Low scorers tend to feel uncomfortable with change and prefer familiar routines. Your level of adventurousness is high.
Intellect. Intellect and artistic interests are the two most important, central aspects of openness to experience. High scorers on Intellect love to play with ideas. They are open-minded to new and unusual ideas, and like to debate intellectual issues. They enjoy riddles, puzzles, and brain teasers. Low scorers on Intellect prefer dealing with either people or things rather than ideas. They regard intellectual exercises as a waste of time. Intellect should not be equated with intelligence. Intellect is an intellectual style, not an intellectual ability, although high scorers on Intellect score slightly higher than low-Intellect individuals on standardized intelligence tests. Your level of intellect is high.
Liberalism. Psychological liberalism refers to a readiness to challenge authority, convention, and traditional values. In its most extreme form, psychological liberalism can even represent outright hostility toward rules, sympathy for law-breakers, and love of ambiguity, chaos, and disorder. Psychological conservatives prefer the security and stability brought by conformity to tradition. Psychological liberalism and conservatism are not identical to political affiliation, but certainly incline individuals toward certain political parties. Your level of liberalism is average.

Oh, and another random one I found a few days ago, just throwing it on here  :P

https://www.idrlabs.com/multiphasic-personality/test.php

(my results attached)

There's a big 5 test that puts you into this "SLOAN" system.
https://similarminds.com/bigfive.html

QuoteBig Five Test Results

Extroversion   ||||||   30%
Orderliness   ||||||||||||   48%
Emotional Stability   ||||||||||||   46%
Accommodation   ||||||   28%
Inquisitiveness   ||||||||||||||||||   74%

The Big Five is currently the most accepted personality model in the scientific community. The Big Five emerged from the work of multiple independent scientists/researchers starting in the 1950s who using different techniques obtained similar results. Those results were that there are five distinct personality traits/dimensions. Here are your results on each dimension:

Extroversion results were low which suggests you are very reclusive, quiet, unassertive, and private.

Orderliness results were medium which suggests you are moderately organized, structured, and self controlled while still remaining flexible, varied, and fun.

Emotional Stability results were medium which suggests you average somewhere in between being calm and resilient and being anxious and reactive.

Accommodation results were low which suggests you are overly selfish, uncooperative, and difficult at the expense too often of the well being of others.

Inquisitiveness results were high which suggests you are very intellectual, curious, imaginative but possibly not very practical.

Your Global5/SLOAN type is RLUEI
Your Primary type is Inquisitive

RLUEI type:
https://similarminds.com/global5/rluei.html


So I have to say, there are two questions on the quiz that are just bad, they have zero to do with personality. But the list of favored/disfavored careers is so hilariously accurate. I could have written that myself, same exact list for the last decade lol.

The simplest quiz, only takes 5 minutes, but I'd call it beautiful, tbh.

It lists a ton of personal values, you choose the top 10, and then they duel it out to make it to your top 5.

https://personalvalu.es/

My choices:

Quote
Top 10 selected:
Pleasure
Adventure
Creativity
Curiosity
Authenticity
Uniqueness
Passion
Independence
Ambition
Freedom


Top 5 winners:
1. Freedom
2. Authenticity
3. Creativity
4. Curiosity
5. Passion

Quote from: greg on November 10, 2021, 08:25:27 AM
There's a big 5 test that puts you into this "SLOAN" system.
https://similarminds.com/bigfive.html


RLUEI type:
https://similarminds.com/global5/rluei.html


So I have to say, there are two questions on the quiz that are just bad, they have zero to do with personality. But the list of favored/disfavored careers is so hilariously accurate. I could have written that myself, same exact list for the last decade lol.

This one's a bit weird, since the results are not what I usually get from the big five—so I'm not sure if it's as scientific—but I was amused by the description.

QuoteSLUEI
(3.8% of women; 3.5% of men)

prone to addiction, often late, does not think things work out for the best, impatient, discontent, negative, opinionated, acts without thinking, preoccupied with self, easily frustrated, not that interested in others, act at the expense of others, becomes aggressive when they feel hurt, acts wild and crazy, frustrated and angry when people don't live up to expectations, slow to forgive, takes charge, does not behave in way that is acceptable to society, pessimistic, agnostic/atheistic tendencies, not usually happy, not calm in crisis, does not accomplish work on time, spontaneous, not on good terms with everyone, demanding, misbehaved, improper, avoids responsibilities, not willing to let things rest, acts out frustrations on others, has a need to maintain high levels of excitement, rarely prepared, often bored while working, aggressive, asks questions nobody else does, hard to reason with, likes to be the center of attention, acts without planning, retaliatory, asks many questions, quick to correct others, more pleasure seeking than responsible, not hard working, disorganized, loses things, unable to control cravings

The method appears different, which may account for the differences. I looked in vain for a personality type whose favoured career path is unemployment. (That said, it is interesting that I am a music student and long hoped to have a career in music, and the vast majority of the career choices for this personality type are artistic. This could be meaningless of course, since almost everyone wants to be an artist; not many people have the right combination of what this quiz called Orderliness/Emotional Stability/Inquisitiveness to actually do so successfully.)

(Extraversion 60% / Orderliness 22% / Emotional Stability 0% / Accommodation 50% / Inquisitiveness 62%)

Looking more into the Attitudinal Psyche system... took the short version of the quiz and got a different result. I don't trust either the quizzes or my ability to understand them.

But after reading the profiles and understanding the theory a bit more, I'm starting to get pretty confident that this is my type:

VELF (The Harbinger):
https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/personality-profiles/pente/velf/

It's the only one I can read about (and listen to an hour long video about) where I'm not hearing something that I object strongly to. And mostly it seem pretty accurate.

Quote from: amw on November 11, 2021, 08:44:49 PM
I looked in vain for a personality type whose favoured career path is unemployment.

INFP maybe? lol
What is the reason for you to prefer unemployment?
I only have a career for money. I'd also prefer unemployment, but have money- the problem is being unable to care about what other people want, enough to dedicate 40 hours a week to it. Even entrepreneurs have a boss- the market itself. So it's just an illusion, you are subject to doing what others want regardless, because that's how money works, unless you are a thief and can get away with it. It's kinda hopeless tbh, even if I could have my dream job as a composer, I'd probably grow to hate it because I'm only composing because others are requesting me to, and have certain expectations, and that takes the fun out of it. So probably best to do it on the side and leave it as my fun projects.

btw I had assumed everyone is like that, but I asked a coworker what he'd do if he got enough money to not have to work, and he said he didn't know, he'd probably still work.  ???
So this might be a personality thing, indeed, rather than a general human thing?

Had a short discussion with the creator of the Attitudinal Psyche system (originally it was based on a Russian system but won't go into that) after posting the best, somewhat detailed descriptions I could of my attitudes toward the four positions.

He said he was pretty confident I'm this type:

VLEF:
https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/personality-profiles/pente/vlef/


Very glad that to get an answer, was actually starting to lose sleep trying to figure out how this system works and which type I am.  ;D :P

Retook the Attitudinal Psyche test and got the results that are accurate now. Reason why is that the questions are really hard to answer, you need a lot of time to actually think about this stuff, since these are life patterns that no one really thinks about much. I actually even heard the creator of the test saying that people my type will mistype often as the type I originally typed as. (btw, my type is also his favorite! lol)
(attached images)



So basically, now that I've figured out my type in all of the typing systems, I've found one page that has the results that I get all together on one page.
It's the Chaotic Neutral page on personalitydb. The top votes for everything are the same results I get for 6 out of 7 of these systems. Considering how unlikely that is, there's obviously something to this.
(this site doesn't have OPS (Objective Personality System) yet, though)


Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Enneagram: 548 sp/sx
MBTI: INTP
Big 5: RLUEI
AP: LVEF
Temperament: Melancholic-Choleric
Socionics: It shows ILI and I took the test once and got LII, only small exception here, that is third place in votes
https://www.personality-database.com/profile/83518

Quote
A chaotic neutral character is an individualist who follows their own heart and generally shirks rules and traditions. Although chaotic neutral characters promote the ideals of freedom, it is their own freedom that comes first; good and evil come second to their need to be free.

I feel like this also describe where on the political compass I'd fit, without taking any tests I'd put the dot on the location of moderate (no left/right) libertarian.


At this point, probably not much more to explore regarding my own type, probably will just continue the habit of typing others for fun, and trying to understand more nuances of the systems.

Quote from: greg on November 25, 2021, 02:40:38 PM
INFP maybe? lol
What is the reason for you to prefer unemployment?
I only have a career for money. I'd also prefer unemployment, but have money- the problem is being unable to care about what other people want, enough to dedicate 40 hours a week to it. Even entrepreneurs have a boss- the market itself. So it's just an illusion, you are subject to doing what others want regardless, because that's how money works, unless you are a thief and can get away with it. It's kinda hopeless tbh, even if I could have my dream job as a composer, I'd probably grow to hate it because I'm only composing because others are requesting me to, and have certain expectations, and that takes the fun out of it. So probably best to do it on the side and leave it as my fun projects.

btw I had assumed everyone is like that, but I asked a coworker what he'd do if he got enough money to not have to work, and he said he didn't know, he'd probably still work.  ???
So this might be a personality thing, indeed, rather than a general human thing?

I feel this way because of my INTJ/P personality type. I think INTPs can ideally enjoy their jobs, but work can also easily have aspects that as you say "take the fun out of it". I totally agree about the "Even entrepreneurs have a boss- the market itself." thing and for INTPs it is perhaps typical to see this kind of truths that are strangely invisible for others.

It is not only about what tasks the job incorporates, but also about when, in what order, in what priority and at what speed are those tasks supposed to be done. INTPs enjoy doing things slowly and in their own way. That isn't possible most of the time.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 06, 2021, 11:33:00 PM
It is not only about what tasks the job incorporates, but also about when, in what order, in what priority and at what speed are those tasks supposed to be done. INTPs enjoy doing things slowly and in their own way. That isn't possible most of the time.

I totally agree with the exception of speed- really depends on the activity, sometimes going as fast as possible can be an adrenaline rush- and tbh, something I crave, really makes me feel alive. Generally, I'm more slow-paced when dealing with people because I'm usually just not interested in engagement at all, and know that you can't make people go faster, so no point in expending extra energy on them. It's almost like spontaneous procrastination.

In the middle of a Dr.K video about ADHD, it's enlightening and reminded me about:

One thing about the P/J (aka hunter vs. farmer) dichotomy that I think it's overlooking is the aspect of volition, which the AP system has as an attribute while no other typing system has it, despite its importance.

What I'm starting to think is naturally I'm quite a bit more of a P, but in reality I might outwardly appear as more of a J simply due to knowing that J's actually achieve more, and you have to be more J-like to function in modern society, anyways.

If you have high volition, you will set goals for yourself, making your own schedules and directing your own life (despite what others want from you), which is very J-like- but at the same time, if you are a "Perceiver" then you will kind of hate having schedules in the first place and tend to get bored easily with routine. So there's conflicting feelings within the same dimension.

But yeah, just some new thoughts I'm working out, all of these ideas are really starting to coalesce now.

Also, not sure I mentioned this or not, but someone in the typing group I'm in typed me when I sent a video to him in the Vultology system, a few months ago.

https://cognitivetype.com/what-is-vultology/

It's basically just visual typing, types your movements and speech style, just any info they can get visually, and relate it back to the Jungian functions.

I got Ne/Fi, with semi-conscious Te.

Had a feeling I'd get Ne because it's "loose," constant body swaying and eye movement (that's not fixed to body position- Se is, though). Sitting still is hard for me in general. I can't even watch a movie without wanting to pick up guitar and move my fingers, or fidget somehow, unless the movie is insanely good. Probably why something as stimulating as Cloverfield is my favorite movie.

The semi-conscious Te means that there is some more direct/aggressive body language, but it is secondary to the Fi body language (which seems to be more middle-faced scrunched-up movements and such).

So by MBTI standards, if you were to believe in typing only by body behavior (rather than life patterns), which is probably more accurate IMO, then I'd actually be an INFP. The most stereotypical type for creative people that have problems fitting into society.  :P

Quote from: 71 dB on December 06, 2021, 11:33:00 PM
I feel this way because of my INTJ/P personality type. I think INTPs can ideally enjoy their jobs, but work can also easily have aspects that as you say "take the fun out of it". I totally agree about the "Even entrepreneurs have a boss- the market itself." thing and for INTPs it is perhaps typical to see this kind of truths that are strangely invisible for others.

It is not only about what tasks the job incorporates, but also about when, in what order, in what priority and at what speed are those tasks supposed to be done. INTPs enjoy doing things slowly and in their own way. That isn't possible most of the time.

Just another thought.
You know the cognitive functions, right? Te/Ti, Fe/Fi, for example?

The thing with INTP's is that they are using the Ti function. It's introverted, so it needs it's own space and time. It can't be rushed and it's sporadic.
Te = Agile Methodology
Give people quick solutions. They might not be permanent, because you haven't taken the time needed that Ti has taken to process and understand how things work deeply. Ti can use that understanding to provide permanent solutions. But business doesn't work that way- it works best in the Te way. Quick money transfer- I have this problem, fix it, I pay you. It might have the same problem again, I have to pay you again, etc. It's a better business model for companies (more like a subscription service). With Ti you can end up doing crazy stuff like coding Python automation to automate yourself out of your own job. All of the great geniuses of history use Ti to make insights or discoveries that have changed the world and stood the test of time- they are likely to be things people didn't even know that they wanted or needed (unlike the Te function).

The great parallel of this is the Fi/Fe version. An example of how I understood this is my approach to music composition versus someone else- we were both officially typed in OPS, he was Fe and I'm Fi. What he's doing with the Fe is looking at a specific genre and realizing that there is a market for it, and decides to write music in this particular genre. That's fine, but it's limited in the sense that you might have temporary popularity within that crowd, but your music is much less likely to stand the test of time- what I'm trying to do in the Fi sense is to create stuff that no one has ever heard before. People won't know that they want it until they hear it, because people only can verbally express what they want to hear as in what they already know that they've heard. All of the greatest music that stood the test of time was very much unique for its time, unmistakable for anyone else- it's all done with Fi. Fi people creates the waves if they can break through the market somehow (which is going to be even more difficult than Fe people), while Fe people ride the wave, more easily marketing themselves as this genre or that genre, but their audience is gone in 10-20 years once the trend dies out.

(https://i.redd.it/sbhhx0urtvh81.jpg)

Really like this, it can be a shorthand way to get your enneagram type, probably the quickest way if anything sticks out to you immediately. Actually excellent choice of words IMO.

Ex. my tritype, 548 = avoiding emptiness, despair, and weakness. Pick three.

I think the avoiding means that you might have a tendency to feel those sort of negative emotions more strongly than the others, and that's what you are trying to avoid. If you read broad descriptions of the type, more things might be applicable to you just due to the fact of a lifetime trying to avoid those specific feelings leads to certain life characteristics or patterns forming.

Small corrections:

This is better:

6- probably several better words to use than Deviance, you kind of have to stretch it a bit to fit, though it captures the gist of it
7- Negativity (instead of pain)

For 4, there was an interesting discussion mentioning that it should be Mundanity instead, which is correct. And Mundanity is what leads to despair.

Would be nice to know others that understand what that is- depression caused by feelings of your life, routine, etc. feeling too mundane. Because most depression is usually thought of as related to low self-esteem, but I never really hear of it being caused by the feeling of crippling boredom and dullness (which is not caused by a lack of activity, it is caused by being forced to focus on boring work all day and not enough time to do exciting things). So it can be hard to explain to people. And unsolvable if exciting work doesn't provide a livable wage.

The low self-esteem thing can be more applicable to social 4's. Seems like this gets way more attention.
Self-preservation 4's, I think, can have the above condition- to them, self-esteem issues may not be a thing, entirely.

I just did some heavy research the last day or two on enneagram type 6 (the counterphobic version especially), the reason being that certain tests detect test-taking patterns that may indicate that you are a type 6. While I understand that, the more I researched it, the more I felt like that type definitely wasn't me at all, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.



I found some stat distribution of types and gender from two different sites, with an extremely large sample size.
(https://enneagram.bz/img/enneagram_repartition.png?ss)
https://enneagram.bz/en/test/stats/1-enneagram-population-distribution


Here's an old one:
(http://www.9types.com/rheti/stats.gif)
http://www.9types.com/rheti/stats.html



The one thing that stands out the most is how my type (type 5) is the most overwhelmingly male. This type is naturally oriented towards solitary and investigative work. The white collar version is something like computer programming and the blue collar ratio is something like auto mechanics. It would explain the gender ratios I have seen in tech school.

Also, type 9 is clearly the most common type.

Another interesting observation about those stats.

The whole idea of "Sigma male" or "Alpha Male" come into play here, terms which I think are completely stupid, btw, but kind of interesting and funny.

But there is a pretty solid agreement that the tritype of Sigma Males is 853 and Alpha Males is 873 (order of numbers is unimportant for these archetypes). On personalitydb you can find entries for both archetypes and
the distinction is quite precise- changing the 7 to 5 is just changing the careless extroversion of the Alpha Male to the more introspective version of the Sigma Male, but both remain tough and disagreeable archetypes.

Statistically, 583 (especially if ordered in that way) is the most masculine tritype, basically the Sigma Male is more masculine.

I've always heard about a correlation between men and low agreeableness on the Big 5, but am seeing a sort of cross-correlation here:

(https://preview.redd.it/lzsw31nyibo81.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=e3540cb1daef8fcc57baea4642bf2ed5b7b8c31c)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/thshgo/enneagram_big_5_correlations/i1g5y4u/?context=3

I commented how 358 (again, order doesn't matter) is the least agreeable tritype. This correlates exactly. (btw I've looked at the r/SigmaGrindset subreddit lately, it's pretty funny, but it's super dark and not for the faint of heart- should not be taken serious at all, though surely it will be taken down eventually, as it goes into extremely politically incorrect territory for that type of humor).

The alpha male is able to play along with society a bit better, the sigma is more reticent, but more masculine.


Hopefully they don't come up with some stupid archetype that ends up being regarded as 548, I don't want a label.  :P



For most feminine tritypes, looks like 269 and 469 are the two most.

Even since I took MBTI tests and got the INTJ results with very narrow margin to INTP, I have felt like "missing" strengths  and weaknesses related to "J" and "P" because I am so close to the middle. Then it occured me, that these axes are probably linked to each other. In electromagnetic radiation electric and magnetic fields are orthogonal to each other: When magnetic field reaches its maximum, electric field become zero and vice versa. The electric field can be described using a rotating vector.

What if the axes of personality types are linked to each other this way? If you are for example extremely introverted, your possibilities being very judgemental are limited and vice versa. What if our personality is just a "vector" in multidimensional space of mutually orthogonal axes of personality traits? If my personality today is a bit different from what it was yesterday, it is because my personality vector has rotated a little bit in the multidimensional personality space.

So, I took my first MBTI score:

83 % Introverted
64 % Intuitive
56 % Thinking
53 % Judgemental

and transformed them on axes where for example 1.0 N ( = -1.0 S) means 100 % intuitive and 0.66 F ( = -0.66 T) means 83 % Feeling:

0.66 I
0.28 N
0.12 T
0.06 J

The vector from "origo" to these "personality" coordinates has length ≈0.73 assuming the personality type space is euclidean. This length "should" be 1 (a versor in 4-dimensional quaternion vector space) so that is describes "whole" personality. The fact that it is not very close to 1 points to several possible issues such as:

- My assumption of personality being a unity vector in personality space is wrong.
- MBTI test scores are inaccurate and mathematically inconsistent
- Personality space is not euclidean, but for example hyperbolic.
- Many personality traits are missing from MBTI test making the personality vector too short.

It would be interesting to calculate the length of personality vector for every person who has taken the MBTI test to see if it is consistently say between 0.7 and 0.75 and if not then if there is a simple way to scale the test results so that the length is almost the same for everybody. Anyway I can "normalize" my result:

0.66 I/0.73 = 0.90 I => 95 % Introverted
0.28 N/0.73 = 0.38 N => 69 % Intuitive
0.12 T/0.73 = 0.16 T => 58 % Thinking
0.06 J/0.73 = 0.08 J => 54 % Judgemental

This assumes my whole personality is "packed" into these 4 axes. This is a bit math heavy, but people on MGM seem to be good at math, so this should not be too complicated to follow.

Quote from: 71 dB on April 07, 2022, 11:08:28 AM
- Many personality traits are missing from MBTI test making the personality vector too short.

Yeah, not sure if you'll discover anything useful, considering this. You would need all of the variables, and there are infinite.

Even now, discovering with tritype theory for enneagram that you can find a commonality between any three types and it produces a new trait that will be expressed strongly in one's personality. So lots of possibilities.

Quote from: 71 dB on April 07, 2022, 11:08:28 AM
Even since I took MBTI tests and got the INTJ results with very narrow margin to INTP, I have felt like "missing" strengths  and weaknesses related to "J" and "P" because I am so close to the middle. Then it occured me, that these axes are probably linked to each other.

I did find an article on this specific "issue" some people have with personality types (not understanding exactly what they are or whatever). As always, caveat that this entire field is pseudoscience. https://practicaltyping.com/2018/10/26/am-i-an-intj-or-an-intp/ (https://practicaltyping.com/2018/10/26/am-i-an-intj-or-an-intp/)

Quote from: amw on April 09, 2022, 04:24:51 PM
I did find an article on this specific "issue" some people have with personality types (not understanding exactly what they are or whatever).

That distinguishes those types well.

I'm just not sure rigid models really work perfectly or explain everything for everyone. It's effective for communication that you can tell people "I'm INTP" or "I'm ENFJ" or whatever, but a whole lot of important nuance is lost.

And with the cognitive function stack, I think one can be other orders that isn't accepted by any model, example being something like Ne and Ni right next to each other, instead of having a model that acts like we can't even do both, which is true for no one.

QuoteAs always, caveat that this entire field is pseudoscience. https://practicaltyping.com/2018/10/26/am-i-an-intj-or-an-intp/ (https://practicaltyping.com/2018/10/26/am-i-an-intj-or-an-intp/)

Yeah, pretty much all of psychology could probably be considered pseudoscience probably (maybe apart from anything involving clinical trials or neurology)? Idk exactly where you draw the line. (Or maybe there's some official term used to describe it that I don't know?)

In the end, something like a typology system becomes an effective tool for understanding, then pseudoscience is enough, it's all we have after all- unless we can figure out a way to literally measure emotions/behaviors/motivations/fears into numerical value and turn it into a hard science.  :o

Quote from: amw on April 09, 2022, 04:24:51 PM
I did find an article on this specific "issue" some people have with personality types (not understanding exactly what they are or whatever). As always, caveat that this entire field is pseudoscience. https://practicaltyping.com/2018/10/26/am-i-an-intj-or-an-intp/ (https://practicaltyping.com/2018/10/26/am-i-an-intj-or-an-intp/)

I don't think you understood my post, which I confess is rather abstract and mathematically complex.

Perceivers (xxxP) have extroverted perceiving function (S or N) while Judgers (xxxJ) have extroverted judging function (F or T) in the top 2 of their cognitive function stack.

However, NOBODY is 100 % J or 100 % P. Based on the tests I have taken, I am little more J than P. This should affect what kind of extroverted function in the top 2 I have. Instead of just going at Te, I consider my Auxiliary function something like 0.55*Te + 0.45*Ne, but it can be even more complex than that, a weighed sum of the auxiliary functions of ALL personality types where Te and Ne dominate, because I am INTJ/P.

It simplifies things to "shoehorn" everybody into 16 MBTI personality types, but especially for those people have happen to be close to or at a border of 2 types, it can create a lot of confusion as seems to be the case with INTJ and INTP.

Up until recenty (1.5 years ago) I considered personality type tests complete nonsense, but at least for me it has been very helpful to get into these things. For me personality types and cognitive functions are tools to understand what goes on in my head. Even if the type is wrong, I understand much better myself and other people. I have only one mystery: Why have I struggled so much in science/engineering-jobs when I seem to be INTJ/P when those types of jobs are considered suitable for my personality type? Why am I still completely at loss as to what is my "place" in this World? That's why I try to develop deeper understanding of my TRUE personality type beyond the simplifications of MBTI. For example it is possible the current World is not suitable for 0.55*Te + 0.45*Ne types and I am just REALLY unlucky to have born in the wrong century. Maybe I should have born in 2071 in a Mars colony?

You guys have been at this for 14 years or so.  Have you figured out yet who you are? :laugh:

Quote from: DavidW on April 10, 2022, 12:33:22 PM
You guys have been at this for 14 years or so.  Have you figured out yet who you are? :laugh:

Knowing who you are is like knowing the brand and model of your hi-fi amplifier. Knowing your personality type and understanding how your head works is like having the manual to your amplifier and knowing how to use it.

Quote from: DavidW on April 10, 2022, 12:33:22 PM
You guys have been at this for 14 years or so.  Have you figured out yet who you are? :laugh:

Better than most people, but learning about the systems is where the addicting part is. It has become an unfortunate habit now to try to guess the type of everyone I see, and every TV/game character, etc.  :-X

Also, didn't even catch how old this thread was... btw, that is typical of an enneagram type 5 thing to do, once a subject has caught my fascination, it's characteristic to dig deeper and deeper and deeper, endlessly, to get every last detail, for years, when all I'm doing is feeding my brain and there's not even much of a productive or practical application. Curiosity is just endless.  :-X

Quote from: 71 dB on April 10, 2022, 10:29:33 AM
It simplifies things to "shoehorn" everybody into 16 MBTI personality types, but especially for those people have happen to be close to or at a border of 2 types, it can create a lot of confusion as seems to be the case with INTJ and INTP.

Under MBTI, you can only be either Ne/Ti or Ni/Te. Under OPS, they accept "jumpers," for example you can be Ti/Ni or Te/Ne.

You might be Ti/Ni or Ti/Si, that would honestly make the most sense- from reading your posts over the years, I feel like those are the two most likely types for you. (btw Elon Musk is typed as Ti/Si in OPS, for reference)

You could optionally try a cognitive function test, but I wouldn't totally recommend it or take that too seriously, tbh, just reading about the functions and observing your thinking process should help the most.

Quote from: 71 dB on April 10, 2022, 10:29:33 AM
Why have I struggled so much in science/engineering-jobs when I seem to be INTJ/P when those types of jobs are considered suitable for my personality type?

Didn't you say it was management issues?

Quote from: 71 dB on April 10, 2022, 10:29:33 AM
Why am I still completely at loss as to what is my "place" in this World?

Interesting question. Do you mean like a "place in society?"

Quote from: 71 dB on April 10, 2022, 02:34:07 PM
Knowing who you are is like knowing the brand and model of your hi-fi amplifier. Knowing your personality type and understanding how your head works is like having the manual to your amplifier and knowing how to use it.

That is funny because I have a power amp... it has exactly one button.  No need for a manual.

Great find, this one has enneagram pairings- if one is okay with tritype theory (no reason why one shouldn't be, but some people aren't), then you theoretically could look at a group of three pairings.

So for my tritype 548, it is 5+4, 5+8, 4+8. I read through all of the type descriptions and these are indeed the top three most relatable. Really interesting read.


https://www.personalitycafe.com/threads/enneagram-pairings-revised-expanded-edition.1354962/

Quote4+5 The Introspective

Double withdrawn.
Paring that is the most introspective and focused on its inner life.
Enhances the natural wings of FOUR and FIVE.
This is the deep divers of their own personal abyss.
People with this pairing are deep thinkers and feelers.
Often feel like a drop in the ocean, like they could be easily swallowed by the outside world.
Feel tired very quickly when interacting with people, especially in new environment.
Genuinely feel different and separate from the crowd.
Generally, prefer written communication over spoken one.
Seek depth in everything and often cannot tolerate daily conversations because of this.
Often engrossed in interests far more than other pairings.
They have a hard time communicating their feelings if they are caught up in them.
Often have a capacity for forming mental maps in which they can intuitively navigate.
Seek beauty and authenticity in the pursuit of knowledge.
Often have odd or unusual interests.
Can be shut ins and live in their own fantasy realm.
Can be emotionally moved and not overtly showing it at all.
Often have a hidden self that very few people are aware of.
Want to be known for their artistic complexity and ingenuity.
It can take them enormous amount of time to produce something because they always prioritize quality over quantity.
Feelings can be a source of anxiety, but they still want to experience them.
Often amass vast amount of knowledge and are often wise beyond their years.
The 5 fix helps the core 4 seek out logical causes to their feelings of inferiority and pursue intellectual hobbies.
The 4 fix helps the core 5 break out of the cerebral mindset and allow intuitive and emotional depth to seep into the self.

Quote4+8 The Maskless

Double reactive.
Pairing that has the most difficulty with superficiality and lying in general.
Most intuitive pairing; see possibilities long before most people.
Intense reactivity to perceived dishonesty, falsehood and conventional thinking.
Most creative and unconventional pairing.
Out-of-the-box thinking and problem-solving.
Like to dig deep into emotional traumas, not afraid of defying taboos.
Protect the vulnerable, the rejected, the abandoned, the different.
Wants to live life according to their own musing, rejecting external expectations.
Are their own authority and can easily delve into insubordination.
Don't have any problem going against the grain and be oppositional.
If it doesn't ring true to them, it's no gonna be validated.
They don't sugarcoat anything, and they mean every word of it.
They trust their gut and their heart, so they are very instinctive in everything they do.
Often see right through others and intuitively know what makes people tick and how they manage everyday problems.
They often have piercing, intense look in their face.
This EIGHT is more conscious of its emotional needs and less fearful of its vulnerable side.
This pairing brings out intensity and emotional truthfulness.
People with this combination are extremely sensitive to insincerity and deceit.
Feel things strongly and express them in a powerful and/or eccentric way.
Can say deep or unconventional truths that few people might have reflected on before.
The 8 fix helps the core 4 assert their creative side and make something out of it.
The 4 fix helps the core 8 get in touch with their emotions and vulnerable side as well as their intuition.

Quote5+8 The Independent

Double rejection.
Pairing that is the most strategic in their thinking.
Enhances the natural line of connection to FIVE and EIGHT.
This is the chess master or the mastermind.
Very strong opinions about topic they like or study.
Knowledge is power to them.
Never attack upfront first but can be sneaky and never let its sight away from their opponent.
Often doesn't rely on one course of action and can change on a whim according to the situation.
May be underestimated by their peers because of the FIVE's low energy giving the EIGHT are more subdued presence.
This FIVE is less intellectual in the sense of bookworm and more streetwise as this pairing learns best by experience.
They oscillate between action and observation very quickly as to never be truly in the moment nor completely still.
They often look calm and fixated on something, as they are waiting to strike on their prey at the right time.
Menacing or unfriendly presence even if unintentional.
Mix of hot and cold energy; may be hard to follow and hard to know deeply.
Their heart is very well protected and can be hard to access even to them.
Often have a razor-sharp mind and are very good at problem-solving.
Have a difficult time connecting with others in a casual, superficial way.
Can alternate between periods of action and reflection.
The 8 fix helps the core 5 putting their ideas out there and assert themselves.
The 5 fix helps the core 8 understand the need to contemplate in order to better grasp the situation.

Quote from: DavidW on April 10, 2022, 07:01:32 PM
That is funny because I have a power amp... it has exactly one button.  No need for a manual.

;D

Quote from: DavidW on April 10, 2022, 07:01:32 PM
That is funny because I have a power amp... it has exactly one button.  No need for a manual.

That makes you type A or type A/B.

Quote from: greg on April 10, 2022, 06:17:41 PM
Under MBTI, you can only be either Ne/Ti or Ni/Te. Under OPS, they accept "jumpers," for example you can be Ti/Ni or Te/Ne.

Yes, but I am thinking "outside" MBTI here.  What is OPS? Omaha Public Schools? I haven't followed this thread much until recently in order to take my mind off the horrible war.  :(

Quote from: greg on April 10, 2022, 06:17:41 PMYou might be Ti/Ni or Ti/Si, that would honestly make the most sense- from reading your posts over the years, I feel like those are the two most likely types for you. (btw Elon Musk is typed as Ti/Si in OPS, for reference) Do you mean that dominant and secondary cognitive functions would be Ti and Ni in my case?

Elon Musk's personality type is obviously "smart weirdo"  ;D

The most difficult thing in identifying personality type is knowing which side of the "fence" am I? It is really difficult except for the Introvert/Extrovert axes. Otherwise it is up to the situation how my brain works or it is a mixture of the option because the options are not "opposite". Since Te and Ti for example are different kind of Thinking (Te ≠ -Ti), it is logically possible to use both, but if your "judgements" are based on logic, they can't be based on feelings unless feelings and logic take you to the same place.

The link given by amw says that ISTPs and ISTJs are often missidentified as INTPs and INTJs. Those types are not very far from me, in fact they are somewhat close, but they don't seem as correct as INTP and INTJ. None of the 16 types feels 100 % match, but the "average" of INTP and INTJ seems a good match. Attached is were I believe I am in the J-P/N-S plane.

Quote from: greg on April 10, 2022, 06:17:41 PMYou could optionally try a cognitive function test, but I wouldn't totally recommend it or take that too seriously, tbh, just reading about the functions and observing your thinking process should help the most.

Yeah, but this personality typing has already helped. I have always wondered why most people are so weird and why some things are so easy or difficult for me compared to other people. All this personality type thing explains so much of it. In fact this began around 2010 when my sister told me I could have Asperger's. At the time I hadn't even heard about it. I don't have a diagnose, but I seem to have mild Asperger's so that about half of the symptoms fit very when to me. MBTI stuff stuff has further deepened my understanding and I believe my mild Asperger's is actually a side effect of being at the end of the Introvert axes. It is a part of being INTJ/INTP. At the opposite end, if you are extremely extroverted you are likely to have tendencies to manipulate other people, because you are so good at social interaction ("anti-Asperger's")

Quote from: greg on April 10, 2022, 06:17:41 PMDidn't you say it was management issues?

That too. I mean the type or work I have done in life hasn't felt as correct for me as it theoretically should feel while the type of work that would be suitable for me doesn't seem to exist. The main problem is I don't like doing stuff that OTHER people value. I only enjoy doing stuff I value myself, but nobody is going to pay me to do stuff only I value. Because of my personality type what I value is often very different from with most people value, this is a massive problem. In my experience ESxx type of people succeed in the worklife much better/easier than INxx type of people. Introverts are easily ignored because they are "silent" and the fast surface level learning of Sensors looks more efficient than the slower but deeper leaning of Intuitives.   [/QUOTE]

Quote from: 71 dB on April 11, 2022, 03:53:30 AM
Yes, but I am thinking "outside" MBTI here.  What is OPS? Omaha Public Schools? I haven't followed this thread much until recently in order to take my mind off the horrible war.  :(

Ah my bad, I was gambling on the chance you would have remember the acronym, it's Objective Personality System.  :)

Quote from: 71 dB on April 11, 2022, 03:53:30 AM
The most difficult thing in identifying personality type is knowing which side of the "fence" am I? It is really difficult except for the Introvert/Extrovert axes. Otherwise it is up to the situation how my brain works or it is a mixture of the option because the options are not "opposite". Since Te and Ti for example are different kind of Thinking (Te ≠ -Ti), it is logically possible to use both, but if your "judgements" are based on logic, they can't be based on feelings unless feelings and logic take you to the same place.

This is exactly my problem with MBTI, you aren't just "on one side of the fence," though your given type might label you such. We all use all 8 functions and shift as needed.

However, we have a preference and comfort zone. It would be better tracked if you could make a heat map, the most red areas being the comfort zones. This is what type should indicate.

Quote from: 71 dB on April 11, 2022, 03:53:30 AM
Yeah, but this personality typing has already helped. I have always wondered why most people are so weird and why some things are so easy or difficult for me compared to other people. All this personality type thing explains so much of it. In fact this began around 2010 when my sister told me I could have Asperger's. At the time I hadn't even heard about it. I don't have a diagnose, but I seem to have mild Asperger's so that about half of the symptoms fit very when to me. MBTI stuff stuff has further deepened my understanding and I believe my mild Asperger's is actually a side effect of being at the end of the Introvert axes. It is a part of being INTJ/INTP. At the opposite end, if you are extremely extroverted you are likely to have tendencies to manipulate other people, because you are so good at social interaction ("anti-Asperger's")

Have you still not read about enneagram type 5?
So I found a chart of correlations on types (sample size 189k):

(https://enneagram.bz/img/mbti_enneagram_correlation.png)
You can see that type 5 is exactly highly INTP/INTJ.


I would be willing to bet a lot of money that you are a type 5. Type 5 is also extremely associated with Asperger's, and also introversion and interest in hard sciences (but in general, typically interest in niche fields that may be unpopular). It is also the most disproportionately male and the rarest (out of all 9 types).

You should take time and research this type, it is very illuminating/revealing, well worth some reading if you are into self-discovery.

Quote from: 71 dB on April 11, 2022, 03:53:30 AM
That too. I mean the type or work I have done in life hasn't felt as correct for me as it theoretically should feel while the type of work that would be suitable for me doesn't seem to exist. The main problem is I don't like doing stuff that OTHER people value. I only enjoy doing stuff I value myself, but nobody is going to pay me to do stuff only I value. Because of my personality type what I value is often very different from with most people value, this is a massive problem. In my experience ESxx type of people succeed in the worklife much better/easier than INxx type of people. Introverts are easily ignored because they are "silent" and the fast surface level learning of Sensors looks more efficient than the slower but deeper leaning of Intuitives.   

[/quote]
Yeah, man... totally get it. A common problem with introversion in general, I think. It's great for niche markets
Kinda why you need markets to be somewhat free (within reason), so as many people actually do have a chance to try to make a career doing something they love. Though there will still be plenty of people like us who still won't be able to find anything we love to make a career from.
Music, for example, isn't profitable most of the time, so it's kind of the wrong interest to have if expecting financial gain.

And in general, I'm just not a team player. I used to consider working in the gaming industry, but besides the overtime expectations, I realized that I wouldn't be happy working on someone else's project. Like, if I had to give one label to myself, just one word, it would be "creative." Someone like that is not naturally someone who should be compromising in teams, they just weren't built to be followers. But unless you come from money, you won't be able to make a career doing creative stuff (especially music) most of the time. ROI is the reality.

Quote from: greg on April 17, 2022, 07:43:19 PM
Ah my bad, I was gambling on the chance you would have remember the acronym, it's Objective Personality System.  :)

My memory is what it is. Even when something has been mentioned several times, it may be a "new" thing for me. I have hard time memorising what other people say and it makes me feel a bad person (someone not respecting other to even remember what they said). Sorry, if you have mentioned OPS many times...

Quote from: greg on April 17, 2022, 07:43:19 PM
This is exactly my problem with MBTI, you aren't just "on one side of the fence," though your given type might label you such. We all use all 8 functions and shift as needed. However, we have a preference and comfort zone. It would be better tracked if you could make a heat map, the most red areas being the comfort zones. This is what type should indicate.

I am not even sure about the 8 functions.  :P What if there are 12 or 14?

Quote from: greg on April 17, 2022, 07:43:19 PMHave you still not read about enneagram type 5?

Not really. Someday maybe. The INTP-side of me takes care I don't do things too fast.  ;D

Quote from: greg on April 17, 2022, 07:43:19 PMSo I found a chart of correlations on types (sample size 189k):

(https://enneagram.bz/img/mbti_enneagram_correlation.png)
You can see that type 5 is exactly highly INTP/INTJ.

I would be willing to bet a lot of money that you are a type 5. Type 5 is also extremely associated with Asperger's, and also introversion and interest in hard sciences (but in general, typically interest in niche fields that may be unpopular). It is also the most disproportionately male and the rarest (out of all 9 types).

You should take time and research this type, it is very illuminating/revealing, well worth some reading if you are into self-discovery.

Of course I am type 5. I get into it when I feel like doing it.

I'm a mixture of The Duty-Fulfiller and The Artist. I'm not original or lawless enough to be an Artist precisely, and I am too sociable and voluble to be a Duty-Fulfiller, incontrovertibly.
Could sixteen types even exactly classify a human nose, let alone a human personality?

Quote from: Rosalba on April 18, 2022, 01:54:23 AM
Could sixteen types even exactly classify a human nose, let alone a human personality?

It is about how accurately you want to be classified. At the simplest level people can be classified as extroverts and introverts (2 types). At the other end there are 8 billion personality types and my type is "me"  ;D Sixteen types is a compromise between "not enough accuracy" and "too many types".

One way to think about this is that maybe each personality type should be equally crowded? One could craft for example 100 different personality types so that each type contains 1 % of all people. Instead of having some personality types be more common than others, there would be clusters of "similar" personality types of different sizes.

Quote from: 71 dB on April 18, 2022, 01:42:13 AM
My memory is what it is. Even when something has been mentioned several times, it may be a "new" thing for me. I have hard time memorising what other people say and it makes me feel a bad person (someone not respecting other to even remember what they said). Sorry, if you have mentioned OPS many times...

No worries.  :)
In fact...

Quote from: 71 dB on April 18, 2022, 01:42:13 AM
Of course I am type 5. I get into it when I feel like doing it.

I totally don't remember if you confirmed this already, I believe I mentioned to you before but don't remember if you said anything.
So yeah, same here lol.

Quote from: 71 dB on April 18, 2022, 01:42:13 AM
I am not even sure about the 8 functions.  :P What if there are 12 or 14?

Right...
the difficult thing about functions is that the origination is from Carl Jung, and his descriptions are long-winded and abstract to say the least.
There could be more but haven't heard anyone propose more functions.

Quote from: Rosalba on April 18, 2022, 01:54:23 AM
I'm a mixture of The Duty-Fulfiller and The Artist. I'm not original or lawless enough to be an Artist precisely, and I am too sociable and voluble to be a Duty-Fulfiller, incontrovertibly.
Could sixteen types even exactly classify a human nose, let alone a human personality?

Cool, so the commonality is that you are ISXX.
That's something, at least- there are some people who don't identify strongly with any of the four letters.
I'm kinda similar- although my test results are usually INTP, in reality it's more like INXX because I'm more balanced on the last two letters.

Quote from: 71 dB on April 18, 2022, 03:15:49 AM
It is about how accurately you want to be classified. At the simplest level people can be classified as extroverts and introverts (2 types). At the other end there are 8 billion personality types and my type is "me"  ;D Sixteen types is a compromise between "not enough accuracy" and "too many types".

One way to think about this is that maybe each personality type should be equally crowded? One could craft for example 100 different personality types so that each type contains 1 % of all people. Instead of having some personality types be more common than others, there would be clusters of "similar" personality types of different sizes.

Exactly.

Quote from: greg on April 18, 2022, 06:16:30 AM
No worries.  :)
In fact...

;D

Quote from: greg on April 18, 2022, 06:16:30 AMI totally don't remember if you confirmed this already, I believe I mentioned to you before but don't remember if you said anything.
So yeah, same here lol.

I don't remember (  ;D ) how it went, but I had no reason to dispute your claim. Your picture of the correlation between MBTI and Enneagram only strengthens your claim while I have nothing against it. Anyway, I have been living in the beliefs that my Enneagram type is 5, even if I didn't make a big number about it here.

Quote from: greg on April 18, 2022, 06:16:30 AMRight...
the difficult thing about functions is that the origination is from Carl Jung, and his descriptions are long-winded and abstract to say the least.
There could be more but haven't heard anyone propose more functions.

I think "more" as in dividing the (some or all) existing ones into variations, say have two kinds of "extroverted feeling" (Fe1, Fe2) for example.

Quote from: 71 dB on April 18, 2022, 08:21:20 AM
I think "more" as in dividing the (some or all) existing ones into variations, say have two kinds of "extroverted feeling" (Fe1, Fe2) for example.

I would love it if someone made a system that did this.
In the concept of "feelings" in MBTI, you have so many things packed into one- feelings, moods, priorities, values, morals, aesthetic tastes, etc.
And likewise, Fe may be about social vibes, group morals, societal standards, popular tastes, customs, etc. So many things.

Which is great. But that's really zoomed out, sometimes it's nice to zoom in and then zoom out a little.  8)

From Trifix Booklet by David Gray

My trifix (photo attached).


If anyone is curious about this, I can send you one for your trifix, if you can figure it out.
Or I can offer an educated guess for some people, just based on reading posts (ultimately, you being the judge, of course).

(Another one about the 548 I've seen recently on another site is relating it to the myth of Xingtian, a Chinese deity who never stops fighting, even when decapitated. I'm still not sure I quite understand that one.)

What resonates the most is the stuff written in-between the arrows of the 4-8 in this image.
"Amplified annhilation"
"Truth in chaos"
"Bullshit detector"
"Radical Individualist"
"Riding nightmares"

Quote from: greg on August 26, 2022, 10:48:26 AM
I can offer an educated guess for some people, just based on reading posts (ultimately, you being the judge, of course).

Okay, Greg, hit me. It should be fun.  :D

Quote from: Florestan on August 26, 2022, 11:06:27 AM
Okay, Greg, hit me. It should be fun.  :D

Crap, you are one of the people who aren't so obvious.  ;D

Ok, I have two guesses (out of 24 types).

379 is my first guess. 279 is my second guess.

Do these feel accurate for you or no?

     I have a high score for savior traits. Often these remain latent so it's nothing I should worry about.

Quote from: greg on August 26, 2022, 05:46:22 PM
Crap, you are one of the people who aren't so obvious.  ;D

Ok, I have two guesses (out of 24 types).

379 is my first guess. 279 is my second guess.

Do these feel accurate for you or no?

Thanks. Most of them are quite close, I'd say. I guess I'm pretty obvious after all.  ;)

Is there any website where I can find more details?

Actually, my one single personality trait that it's not obvious at all from my posts and hard to discern from my online behaviour is that I'm a very sentimental and highly sensitive/impressionable person: things, events or words that might go on unnoticed by others, or to which others might attach little or no importance, can greatly impact my feelings and moods. I've been like that since childhood. It probably explains my attraction to, and love for, "sentimental" even "saccharine" music (eg, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, salon music).

Quote from: Florestan on August 28, 2022, 09:53:25 AM
Actually, my one single personality trait that it's not obvious at all from my posts and hard to discern from my online behaviour is that I'm a very sentimental and highly sensitive/impressionable person: things, events or words that might go on unnoticed by others, or to which others might attach little or no importance, can greatly impact my feelings and moods. I've been like that since childhood. It probably explains my attraction to, and love for, "sentimental" even "saccharine" music (eg, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, salon music).

That actually sounds like 4. Not only the description, but all of those composers were type 4.... though my personal template of a 4 is Mahler.
Check the one I attached now. Is it the closest one?
I can send you the complete booklet, but I'd rather email you it, I don't think it would be a good idea to attach the whole thing in a post.

Quote from: Florestan on August 28, 2022, 02:53:02 AM
Thanks. Most of them are quite close, I'd say. I guess I'm pretty obvious after all.  ;)

Is there any website where I can find more details?

This was my starting point: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-descriptions

Buuuutt... the best and most comprehensive site really is this one: https://www.enneagrammer.com/types


But it's a lot, I'll do a quick overview, would be easier to read this as a starting point before being lost in those sites.

The nine types are divided into 3 centers:
gut (how anger is dealt with)
mind (how fear is dealt with)
heart (how personal identity as a member of society is dealt with, or how one wants to be loved/appreciated)


Gut types:
8: Tendency to be extreme/aggressive, denies vulnerability, uses rage as a fuel to get stuff done, like a human bulldozer
9: Forgets their anger, tendency to just chill and let stuff pass, even stuff that needs to be dealth with- narcotizes through routine, "comfortably numb," struggles to take action
1: Controls/feels shame about their anger, tends to be critical of self and others, frustrated at the world not meeting their standards, uptight, judgemental, rigid, perfectionistic, "everything in moderation"


Head types:
5: Hermetic, highly introverted, deals with fear by distancing from the world and observing/studying this from afar- tendency to study things of personal interest deeply
6: Hypervigilant, prone to partisan politics, whistleblower, need for external guidance, will test authority to make sure they are proper guides for them, but can be very loyal if they do find the right type of guidance (ideology, leaders, etc.). This type is the most complex and can manifest wildly different from person to person, but quite common. Unhealthy types can be paranoid conspiracy theorists.
7: Deals with fear by saying "why let it bring you down?" and goes out and parties- tendency to be a jack of all trades and not overfocus on anything too long, just wants to have fun


Heart types:
2: Like a prideful waiter, proud to be indispensable, can give to get
3: "Dress for success," performing a role to be successful in society, typically represented as a performer of music or a "live to work" CEO, sensitive to failure
4: Deeply sensitive, feels like an alien among humans, melancholic, "Romanticist"


Instincts (aka subtypes):
sp = self-preservation
sx = sexual
so = social

Example, my instinctual stacking is sp/sx. It's ordered by what worries you the most to least- which naturally gives you a prioritization order of what you focus on.
So that means that self-preservation concerns (finances, health) is the top concern, sexual (having chemistry with someone else) is second, and social (how to operate within the social realm) is last.



From these centers, various triads are extracted.


Hornevian group- How each type moves in relation to other people, stances, how they get what they need/want
Assertive - 378
Compliant/Superego - 126
Withdrawn - 459


Harmonic triads- How each type handles conflict, how they handle situations where their needs are not met, coping mechanisms
Reactive - 468
Positive - 279
Competency - 135


Object Relations
Attachment - 369
Frustration - 147
Rejection - 258



Wings: a secondary type that is next to your main number- ex: type 1 can only be a 1w2 or 1w9. Type 4 can only be 4w3 or 4w5, etc.

Tritypes (aka trifixes) are a more advanced concept. It's recommended to find your "core" type first.
But once you find your trifix, the order doesn't really matter. Example: 479/794/947/974 are all referred to as the same thing.
But you can order them how you like. If your core type is 9, and you feel that your second strongest is 7, and your third strongest is 4, then you are 974. So even though the picture I attached says 479, it still refers to 974.
It again follows the rule: one from each center (heart, head, gut).

Oh, also forgot to mention if you come across the list of enneagram passions/virtues, it's better off to find some sort of written interpretation of those.

Ex. Type 8 is called "lust," but it doesn't even have to be sexual, it really just means having a passion in overindulgence- things like loud music, spicy food, thrills, etc.

Quote from: greg on August 28, 2022, 01:18:46 PM
That actually sounds like 4. Not only the description, but all of those composers were type 4.... though my personal template of a 4 is Mahler.

Well, my favorite Mahler movement is the Adagietto of the 6th. :D

Quote from: Florestan on August 29, 2022, 09:20:18 AM
Well, my favorite Mahler movement is the Adagietto of the 6th. :D

Not the Fifth?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2022, 11:54:11 AM
Not the Fifth?

Oopsss... my bad indeed. The Fifth, obviously

Anyone interested in more discussion? Anyone venture further into the topic for themselves?

I've had a whirlwind of the last few months with typology, but I have come to some conclusion that makes sense.

The goal was to get external confirmation of my full enneagram type. Why? Because the way the system works, it's actually subconscious, so people very often mistype themselves. External input is necessary to come to a definitive typing conclusion.

The first typing video I did, I sent into enneagrammer typing service, but their guess was so insanely wrong. So I sent in a video to Attitudinal Psyche, where I get my AP type as well as my enneagram type. The video was commented on and I agreed with it- everything about how the types work, and how I work, makes sense now.


So my AP type is VLEF (3241) and my full enneagram type is 594 sp/sx.

But there is an extra dimension to enneagram me and others are discovering- secondary strategies. These are more conscious. For me, it would be 3, 6, and 8.


I personally call the 594 tritype (ordered any way, even 495's, 549's, etc.), the "Mystic." 368 tritype commonly has the "Warrior" nickname. So like a Mystic with a secondary Warrior side, alter ego, whatever you wanna call it. The idea is that 594 "Mystic" is subconscious/automatic behavior, and the 368 "Warrior" is a bit more conscious like a secondary strategy. (The rest- 7, 2, and 1 are also accessible but take a greater deal of effort and are more rare to see in me).

After a break from thinking too much about personality types I am back to it. Now re-evaluating things and re-thinking my INTJ/INTP confusion I am more convinced the tests I took were right after all: I am an INTJ. It all comes down to what is natural to me. I can choose operating like an INTP, but the INTJ-way is natural for me.

I hadn't paid much attention into understanding the role of cognitive functions. Now I found good explanations (https://www.careerplanner.com/8CognitiveFunctions/Cognitive-Functions-Simply-Explained.cfm) for these using all 8 cognitive functions:

INTJ = Ni-Te-Fi-Se-Ne-Ti-Fe-Si, where the roles are:

1...Ni = Dominant / Hero
2...Te = Auxiliary / Good Parent   
3...Fi = Relief / Eternal Child   
4...Se = Aspirational / Soul / Spirit   
5...Ne = Opposing
6...Ti = Critical Parent   
7...Fe = Trickster   
8...Si = Devilish / Transformative

These roles make a lot of sense to me, but there is a lot to analyse.

I should probably research the various roles... looked at it a long time ago but didn't make much sense to me, deserves a second look, though.

All I can say is that I have a preference for Ni, Ne, Fi, and Ti. The rest of them feel like a chore usually. Not sure if that fits any model or not.


I've been huge into learning about Rejection types in enneagram lately. Types 5, 8, and 2 are the Rejection types (also called Power types), and have associated them with stuff like DMT art, Mayan art, Hindu art, etc. because it's the weirdest and perhaps rarest tritype combination to have. It's rare to find an example, but they can tend be cult leader-ish (did some research on Teal Swan and she is definitely a 528 or 582). Basically what those types are doing is rejecting their own neediness and "going it alone" in regards to taking care of themselves, hoping to only be in the position of providing for others rather than needing them.


Also observing some similar types- Tosin Abasi is believed to be a 594 tritype like me, and if you watch interviews from him he does give very similar vibes as I do.

Another interesting character is Wednesday Adams, typically typed 584. Close to my typing, but basically the 8 makes her a huge edgelord. Some say she is a 6 but are absolutely wrong because the preference of being alone massively point to 5 (6's feel more comfortable and safe in groups).


Also defining one HUGE distinction between 5 and 6- basically, both can be "scientific" but 6's will sort of wear the scientific method like a shirt, and let it guide their thinking. 5 is the quintessential free-thinker, preferring to speculate and theorize about their special interests moreso than being bound by any system. 6's are trying to find something trustworthy to guide their thinking, 5 is just completely self-reliant on their thinking. (of course, you can be both, but it's a matter of what you are more of)

Quote from: 71 dB on May 08, 2023, 04:21:45 AM8...Si = Devilish / Transformative

So looking into what Introverted Sensing being my "demonic" cognitive function means:

https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/the-demon-of-each-myers-briggs-personality-type/

"INTJs may quickly forget details, even if they're trying to remember them."

Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! That's one of the most annoying things about being me! Trying to memorise stuff and forgetting it immediately afterwards and having to use tons of time and effort to make stuff stay in my head! Only when my dominant Introverted Intuition has thoroughly analysed every damn aspect of the data I am trying to memorise it finally becomes part of my brain, but it may take years! That's why I tend to learn very slowly unless the data is very intuitive/logical/self-evident in nature.

"For example, they may drive to the same place a dozen times but still need to use their GPS to get there."

Yes! I hate driving for many reasons and one of them is because finding places is hard! I am like "Do I need to turn right in this intersection or in the next one? I can't say if the next intersection looks more correct, because I am not there yet! I can't compare!"

"They may forget names, dates, the way a room was decorated, or the phone number of a dear friend."

Yes, I struggle at remembering people's names. It is embarrassing to me and adds to my social anxiety a lot! So, if and when I forgot your name here, please understand it is not because I am rude or insensitive. It is because of Si is my demonic Cognitive Function and I suffer mentally from this weakness!

I am better at remembering room decorations, because I am a visual person. Architecture/decoration/design gives me a specific feeling that I can store in my mind for later (Tertiary function Fi in action I think...).

"INTJs also tend to focus so much on abstract ideas that they lose sight of their physical needs. They may experience muscle aches and pain from lack of concern for their body. While other types might immediately stretch when they are sore or get a drink when they are thirsty, INTJs tend to be oblivious to these things only to experience debilitating physical effects later."

I probably have this tendency, but perhaps not to the extreme. Sometimes I realize I haven't eaten and I am quite hungry when I have been concentrating on introverted activities for a few hours. I do experience muscle aches from time to time, but I thought everybody does!

All in all this INTJ introverted Sensing stuff applies well on me! Now I know why memorizing and learning new things is so hard/slow for me.

Quote from: greg on May 09, 2023, 01:21:42 AMI should probably research the various roles... looked at it a long time ago but didn't make much sense to me, deserves a second look, though.

All I can say is that I have a preference for Ni, Ne, Fi, and Ti. The rest of them feel like a chore usually. Not sure if that fits any model or not.

That doesn't fit the models. You should have 2 sensing functions (S and N) and 2 judging functions (F and T) in your "conscious" main stack. Moreover, if you have Si, you should also have Ne or vice versa and same for F and T. One of these should be your dominant function and then auxiliary from the other type, so for example Se and Ti (1 sensing, 1 judging, the other introvert and the other extravert). You need to have Si or Se in you main stack, because otherwise you taste, see, hear etc. subconsciously!

These things can be confusing so take your time to figure them out. That's what I am doing!

Quote from: 71 dB on May 09, 2023, 12:17:12 PM"For example, they may drive to the same place a dozen times but still need to use their GPS to get there."

Yes! I hate driving for many reasons and one of them is because finding places is hard! I am like "Do I need to turn right in this intersection or in the next one? I can't say if the next intersection looks more correct, because I am not there yet! I can't compare!"

Waze and Google Maps are your best friends...  ;D

When driving for vacation, I don't even turn the key before my wife's phone is set on one of those.  ;D

Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2023, 12:34:44 PMWaze and Google Maps are your best friends...  ;D

When driving for vacation, I don't even turn the key before my wife's phone is set on one of those.  ;D

Yes, nowadays, but I haven't driven a car in years! Back in the day when I did in my job navigators were pretty new. Whenever my boss loaned one for me to use, the help was tremendous!  8)

Quote from: 71 dB on May 09, 2023, 12:38:49 PMYes, nowadays, but I haven't driven a car in years! Back in the day when I did in my job navigators were pretty new. Whenever my boss loaned one for me to use, the help was tremendous!  8)

You had a generous boss, it seems, at least occasionally.  :D

Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2023, 12:42:37 PMYou had a generous boss, it seems, at least occasionally.  :D

Everything is relative. Even generosity.  :)

Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2023, 12:34:44 PMWaze and Google Maps are your best friends...  ;D

When driving for vacation, I don't even turn the key before my wife's phone is set on one of those.  ;D

GPS really made me feel much more comfortable about driving to strange locations.  I always had a fear of getting lost, and maps for me are just not nearly as good as technology.  So sue me!

Quote from: DavidW on May 09, 2023, 03:27:27 PMGPS really made me feel much more comfortable about driving to strange locations.  I always had a fear of getting lost, and maps for me are just not nearly as good as technology.  So sue me!

What I used to do at work when I needed to drive somewhere I drove "virtually" the route in Google Maps (which of course also showed the route from A to B) street view! :D Not the entire distance perhaps, but the critical parts such as intersections etc. I used my visual memory and the fact that the visual characteristics of a place gives me a specific feeling to memorize when to turn left or right etc. So, I would for example see in the street view that when I arrive to a place where I need to turn left, there is a tall white office building on the right and the trees around it are small while on the left side the trees are taller. This visual "composition" gives a certain feeling. So, when I arrive to that place, I will experience this specific feeling and I know to turn left!

The problem was prepairing myself for a trip this way takes some time (15 minutes perhaps) and my boss was looking at me and probably thinking "Why the f*ck is he still sitting and staring at the monitor instead of just going to get that task done?" It was nerve-wrecking for me and I had to compromise: Ok, I'll prepaire myself for the most challenging parts of the trip only (5 minutes) and hope for the best for the rest of it!

Extraverts can't understand the difficulties we introverts can experience when operating in the real world in real time!

Looking into the 7th or the Trickster function (Fe):

https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/the-trickster-of-every-myers-briggs-personality-type/

Because you have Extraverted Feeling in the Trickster position, you're likely to see strong expressions of it as somewhat disingenuous. People who "work the room" or demonstrate a lot of emotional intensity can seem suspicious to you. You may project your Trickster onto them, seeing them as inauthentic, cloying, or manipulative. You may inwardly mock or roll your eyes at them, wondering if they're "up to something."

I think this is true, but I haven't really thought about how emotional expressive people appear to me. I might actually admire this kind of people for being able to manipulate other people! However, I am  probably also well aware as a critical thinker that their act can be deceiving and disingenuous!

At the same time, when called upon to use Fe, perhaps in a social situation, it can feel awkward and stressful for you.

Definitely!! Social situations with a small group of people I know well can be easy, even relaxed, for me, but large groups of people I don't know well makes social situations a nightmare for me! It is as bad as forcing a very extravert person to isolate himself/herself for days without interaction with other people to figure out abstract concepts!

It might be more tempting for you to sarcastically exude Fe than to do it in a serious manner.

Could be true, but I haven't thought about these things much, because of the nightmarish flavour they have for me. I want to limit awkward social situations to the moments they actually happen and are unavoidable and not think about them before or afterwards! After a stressful social situation I need to go "back" to my inner world to charge my drained mental batteries.

Because you naturally crave a great deal of independence, having to consider other people's feelings and connect with them on an emotional level can feel overwhelming.

Definitely! For me it is natural to think my "job" as a person among other people is to avoid being a problem for other people and that's it. The idea of needing to consider other people's feelings is very demanding for me. It's not that don't care about what other people feel (I do). It's that I feel my abilities to affect the feelings of other people poor. Considering other people's feelings just seems a task too massive for me unless the situation is very easy for me (I am just hanging out with my best friend who I know very well and whose feelings I understand at least to some degree).

At the same time, you might know how to tap into Trickster Fe to get something you want. Less healthy INTJs can often manipulate the emotions of others in order to get the desired outcome. When someone tries to convince you to do something for the social welfare of the group, you may try to argue against them using different social values to trap them in a lose-lose situation where their argument lacks merit.

I have to figure out now healthy INTJ I am, but this seems something I don't often do if ever...

Quote from: 71 dB on May 10, 2023, 01:57:07 AMWhat I used to do at work when I needed to drive somewhere I drove "virtually" the route in Google Maps (which of course also showed the route from A to B) street view!

I meant actual maps not google maps. lol

Quote from: 71 dB on May 10, 2023, 02:55:00 AMLooking into the 7th or the Trickster function (Fe):

This is actually accurate for me.
Maybe I am actually an INTJ after all? In OPS they say I am an INTJ jumper (Ni/Fi), but every online MBTI test says INTP.

So seems like I have the same sort of quandary as you.  :o

For Fe trickster, I have a question for you- have you ever considered other people's tastes to be like some sort of joke? Like with music genre tastes, or with attraction to people (it's always been hard to even conceive of the fact that girls like guys because I don't understand the attraction behind that- almost seems like it's not even a real thing, like they are faking it, even though it's obviously not true).


Now I am also wondering what your Attitudinal Psyche type is now lol. Maybe will have to ask you some questions eventually, IMO is the easiest system to type people in luckily. But I like that system more than MBTI, despite far less information about it.

Quote from: greg on May 13, 2023, 07:14:17 AMThis is actually accurate for me.
Maybe I am actually an INTJ after all?

ISTJs have the same tricker function Fe.

Quote from: greg on May 13, 2023, 07:14:17 AMIn OPS they say I am an INTJ jumper (Ni/Fi), but every online MBTI test says INTP. So seems like I have the same sort of quandary as you.  :o

"Stack jumping" is a new concept for me. The INTJ/INTP confusion seems to be very common for some reason. I think it is because understanding the cognitive functions and how they work together is challenging. For INTPs the trickster function is Se. Very different from INTJs and ISTJs...

Quote from: greg on May 13, 2023, 07:14:17 AMFor Fe trickster, I have a question for you- have you ever considered other people's tastes to be like some sort of joke? Like with music genre tastes, or with attraction to people (it's always been hard to even conceive of the fact that girls like guys because I don't understand the attraction behind that- almost seems like it's not even a real thing, like they are faking it, even though it's obviously not true).

I have found the preferences of other people often weird, but getting into personality types has helped me to understand not only myself but other people much better. I understand better how people can be different.

Quote from: greg on May 13, 2023, 07:14:17 AMNow I am also wondering what your Attitudinal Psyche type is now lol. Maybe will have to ask you some questions eventually, IMO is the easiest system to type people in luckily. But I like that system more than MBTI, despite far less information about it.

I don't want to go into other systems before understanding MBTI fully.

As a child I felt other children (classmates) had superpowers I was lacking that made them more popular, more likeable, better understanding each other and just better at "playing their games" in large groups. I had dreams where I had my own superpowers (such as the ability to levitate 1-3 inches in the air or having my Stiga snowracer equipped with motor to turn it a snowmobile for kids) that made my classmates drop their jaw on the floor when I demonstrated those superpowers to them.

Especially in my teens I felt I was much smarter than my classmates. I felt their interests were dumb and their ability to understand abstract and logical things lacking. I was confused about how different I felt compared to others, but at this point it wasn't a serious problem for me.

After the high-school I went to the university and suddenly I was surrounded by other INTJs and other types capable of deep abstract and logical thinking. I found my mediocrity in such an environment and it has a bit disturbing. I recognised that some people around me are clearly smarter than I am, something that was pretty new for me. Not only did they understand the complex things I did, they were able to understand them faster and more effortlessly! :o However this wasn't the end of the World: It isn't that bad to be mediocre among smart people, is it?

Next step was worklife and oh boy was that horrible and traumatizing! I learned that being mediocre is in fact bad! You get to keep your job if you are one of the best. If you are mediocre you are in danger of losing it. Not only that, but jobs require all kind of talent and if you are weak at something it will bite you in the ass!

So, my life went from thinking I am smarter than my classmates in high-school to been traumatized by the work life and been shown my place as an almost useless person by the age of 35. Talk about a drop in self-esteem! After years of self-pity and even self-hate, getting into personality types has given me a lot of clarity about why these things have happened to me and helped me to accept myself as I am. I might a "dumb" INTJ far from the genius of say Nikola Tesla and I might be a useless individual in today's World that has use only for really smart and weakness-free INTJs, but there is only one me. I can appreciate at least that.  :)

Quote from: 71 dB on May 14, 2023, 02:00:41 AMISTJs have the same tricker function Fe.

I'm definitely not an ISTJ. Off the charts in both intuition and introversion, but thinking/feeling and perceiving/judging is more balanced.

Mainly, with thinking and feeling, I am deeply both at the same time, and MBTI makes a coin (originally based on Jung's thinking of dichotomies) where you can't be both at the same time. But in both AP and enneagram, there is no such coin so it feels like those systems describe me better.


Also looked up what is the Critical Parent function of INTJ's, and that is Ti. One video mentioned that this means this type of person will typically ask others for their source, and I don't do that. Doing that is something typical of enneagram 6's and 1L or 3L or in AP. I will always rely on my own judgement and logic over "proof," so technically that means I'm prioritizing Ti over Te.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 14, 2023, 02:00:41 AM"Stack jumping" is a new concept for me. The INTJ/INTP confusion seems to be very common for some reason. I think it is because understanding the cognitive functions and how they work together is challenging. For INTPs the trickster function is Se. Very different from INTJs and ISTJs...

Yeah, it's a big debate in MBTI whether "looping" is a thing.

"Looping" being using your third function in place of your second on a normal basis.

ex: INTJ's normally Ni/Te, but a looper would be Ni/Fi


In MBTI, it either doesn't exist or is an indication of poor mental health (like an echo chamber for two introverted functions, or being closed off from one's own mind if two extraverted functions).

(In OPS it's considered perfectly normal and not unhealthy, which is a big reason why I favor that system).

Quote from: 71 dB on May 14, 2023, 02:00:41 AMI have found the preferences of other people often weird, but getting into personality types has helped me to understand not only myself but other people much better. I understand better how people can be different.

Yeah, it's like viewing the config file of other people's head-machines, it's interesting to observe.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 14, 2023, 02:00:41 AMI don't want to go into other systems before understanding MBTI fully.

Haha yep, ok Mr.Enneagram 5.

I get it, I also like to explore one thing to the depths before moving on to the next topic, otherwise it's overwhelming. It's like a jarring interruption. The other head types (6 and 7) can switch gears more easily, but their understanding of things tends to be more shallow.

I bet you even do a lot of zoning out while thinking for your body language, and hate being interrupted.

Also, with your next post, seems to back up my guess of 513 for your tritype- that's triple competency! So yeah, I can imagine competency being a big theme in your life.

Anyways, sorry for mentioning enneagram as that's a bit jarring, but I think of it as leaving out bread crumbs that you for later, after you mentally conquer MBTI lol, you absolutely don't have to think about that now and respond to it.

Quote from: greg on May 14, 2023, 09:46:34 AMI'm definitely not an ISTJ. Off the charts in both intuition and introversion, but thinking/feeling and perceiving/judging is more balanced.

Just mentioning the fact that ISTJs have Fe in the same stack place as INTJs. ISTJs are the third most introverted MBTI personality type after INTJ and INTPs, but Ne is ISTJs inferior function so there is that.

Quote from: greg on May 14, 2023, 09:46:34 AMMainly, with thinking and feeling, I am deeply both at the same time, and MBTI makes a coin (originally based on Jung's thinking of dichotomies) where you can't be both at the same time. But in both AP and enneagram, there is no such coin so it feels like those systems describe me better.

Well, MBTI is far from perfect and I don't even expect "perfect match", because that's silly. 16 types just can't describe millions of different people accurately. INTJ is the best match for me. What I find useful is the need to think about cognitive functions and how they work together. I read that Ni is "connected" to subconsciousness and as the dominant function connects to the lower 4 cognitive functions in the stack without conscious control. This might give INTJs subconsciously INTP-like flavor which could be one explanation to the INTJ/INTP confusion so many seems to have. Maybe the "pure" INTJs are those whose Ni consults less the shadow functions down in the stack?They would use mostly Ni, Te and Fi while INTP-"looking" Ne-Ti-Fe-Si stuff would stay mostly out of the way. I don't consider myself "pure" INTJ and I thing the lower stack in good and bad is quite active in me.

Quote from: greg on May 14, 2023, 09:46:34 AMAlso looked up what is the Critical Parent function of INTJ's, and that is Ti. One video mentioned that this means this type of person will typically ask others for their source, and I don't do that. Doing that is something typical of enneagram 6's and 1L or 3L or in AP. I will always rely on my own judgement and logic over "proof," so technically that means I'm prioritizing Ti over Te.

The use of critical parent is linked to situations arguing and emotional disagreement, when things heat up. I don't ask for other people's sources either, unless I am frustrated, I want to "win" and I am on thin ice. That's when I might ask: "What's your damn source and evidence for those wild claims?" However, INTJs don't do it when they are calm and know they can win the debate.

The dominant and auxiliary functions work together so seemingly that it can be difficult to tell them apart. You might feel you are using Ti, but you are actually using the combination of Ni and Te that only looks Ti to you. The personal "own" stuff comes from Ni. Te creates the plan how you can implement your personal vision in the real world. If you are using Ti, you are not even interested to carry out ideas in the real world, because them existing inside your head is enough for you (INTPs).

Quote from: greg on May 14, 2023, 09:46:34 AMYeah, it's a big debate in MBTI whether "looping" is a thing.

"Looping" being using your third function in place of your second on a normal basis.

ex: INTJ's normally Ni/Te, but a looper would be Ni/Fi

Whether it is a thing or not, I do experience things that the Ni-Fi does explain and knowing about it can help me to try to get out of it faster or to even prevent it from happening in the first place. I was familiar with the term looping, but not the term stack jumping. I should have realized they mean the same thing.

Quote from: greg on May 14, 2023, 09:46:34 AMIn MBTI, it either doesn't exist or is an indication of poor mental health (like an echo chamber for two introverted functions, or being closed off from one's own mind if two extraverted functions).

(In OPS it's considered perfectly normal and not unhealthy, which is a big reason why I favor that system).

Being closed off from one's own mind is a scary thought.  ??? Thank God I am not an extravert!

Quote from: greg on May 14, 2023, 09:46:34 AMYeah, it's like viewing the config file of other people's head-machines, it's interesting to observe.

That's a nice analogy! Load Ni1.lib, Te2.lib,...  :D 

Quote from: greg on May 14, 2023, 09:46:34 AMHaha yep, ok Mr.Enneagram 5.

I get it, I also like to explore one thing to the depths before moving on to the next topic, otherwise it's overwhelming. It's like a jarring interruption. The other head types (6 and 7) can switch gears more easily, but their understanding of things tends to be more shallow.

Thinking these things a lot now with MBTI will help when/if I jump to the other models. It is like learning new languages gets easier the more languages you already know.

Quote from: greg on May 14, 2023, 09:46:34 AMI bet you even do a lot of zoning out while thinking for your body language, and hate being interrupted.

Also, with your next post, seems to back up my guess of 513 for your tritype- that's triple competency! So yeah, I can imagine competency being a big theme in your life.

Anyways, sorry for mentioning enneagram as that's a bit jarring, but I think of it as leaving out bread crumbs that you for later, after you mentally conquer MBTI lol, you absolutely don't have to think about that now and respond to it.

It is okay. Of course you can talk about whatever personality type model you want.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 14, 2023, 03:23:19 PMMaybe the "pure" INTJs are those whose Ni consults less the shadow functions down in the stack?They would use mostly Ni, Te and Fi while INTP-"looking" Ne-Ti-Fe-Si stuff would stay mostly out of the way. I don't consider myself "pure" INTJ and I thing the lower stack in good and bad is quite active in me.

Ha, that is one way to make a distinction, like a spectrum of usage rather than a binary usage of functions.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 14, 2023, 03:23:19 PMThe use of critical parent is linked to situations arguing and emotional disagreement, when things heat up. I don't ask for other people's sources either, unless I am frustrated, I want to "win" and I am on thin ice. That's when I might ask: "What's your damn source and evidence for those wild claims?" However, INTJs don't do it when they are calm and know they can win the debate.

Ahhh ok gotcha.
Then I'm probably the same, would only say that if pushed far enough.
In enneagram terms, this I think would be 5 leaning on their 6 wing as a backup plan.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 14, 2023, 03:23:19 PMThe dominant and auxiliary functions work together so seemingly that it can be difficult to tell them apart. You might feel you are using Ti, but you are actually using the combination of Ni and Te that only looks Ti to you. The personal "own" stuff comes from Ni. Te creates the plan how you can implement your personal vision in the real world. If you are using Ti, you are not even interested to carry out ideas in the real world, because them existing inside your head is enough for you (INTPs).

This is a really good point, and points more to me being an INTJ, because I very much would prefer my ideas to enter the real world.

I actually like your distinction of Ti and Te- seems there is some disagreement about what Te is actually doing from source to source, which is throwing me off. I think I will go with your interpretation.






You might find this somewhat interesting, was watching a Stockhausen interview and noticed his body language.




My thoughts on it:
he is most likely Ni-dominant and enneagram 5.

I never see people look at a single point on the ground and have barely any eye contact with the interviewer when doing interviews, but that is a sign of both.

The guy who typed me in enneagram and AP noticed that in my video. I notice a huge difference between how much I do that and how much others do that. But it's because it's difficult to get into my head to formulate thoughts while looking at other people. So there is a lack of mirroring. In enneagram, the attachment types (3, 6, and 9, also happen to be the most common types) mirror people subconsciously when talking to them- but for me, it's more of a conscious effort.

Quote from: greg on May 14, 2023, 07:38:55 PM1. Ha, that is one way to make a distinction, like a spectrum of usage rather than a binary usage of functions.

2. Ahhh ok gotcha.
Then I'm probably the same, would only say that if pushed far enough.
In enneagram terms, this I think would be 5 leaning on their 6 wing as a backup plan.

3. This is a really good point, and points more to me being an INTJ, because I very much would prefer my ideas to enter the real world.

I actually like your distinction of Ti and Te- seems there is some disagreement about what Te is actually doing from source to source, which is throwing me off. I think I will go with your interpretation.

1. Personality types are about the preferences. Everybody can use all of the 8 cognitive functions, but depending on how our brains are "wired", using certain functions is easier to us than others. My INTJ brain is good at (wired to) analysing the underlying logic and patterns in the external World meaning I don't lose much mental energy doing that, but the same brain is badly wired for handling social situations and sensory data and that's why I lose mental energy very fast when I have to interact with a group of people or my senses are overstimulated. No wonder I prefer being alone or with only a couple of close people rather than taking my ass to situations where masses have been summoned. No wonder I prefer listening to music home alone instead of going to concerts! No wonder I don't have a need to travel. Personality types explain so much! Anyway, no two INTJs have their brain wired exactly the same way. It's just that INTJs have brains that are closest to the "wiring model" named INTJ. The same, of course, goes for the other 15 types.

2. Yeah, the bottom functions manifest themselves in stressful situations were our top functions can't fully handle the situation. It is our dark side to use some Star Wars terminology. It is about becoming someone we don't think we are.

3. Well thanks! Nice if I could help you clarify things. I think I am a frustrated INTJ, because I feel I can't push my ideas out to the World (the World seems to be ready for new ideas only when there is money to make and otherwise traditions are valued over new concepts). I am also very disappointed about how the World has turned out in the 21st century. Instead of increased wisdom and knowledge we have social media brainwashed ignorants. Instead of peace on Earth we have wars. Instead of having solved problems with technology we have created new problems with it. Instead of having more democracy we see more and more countries moving toward dictatorship. Now I understand why the World as it is today is so disappointed to me: As an INTJ I envisioned the 21st century decades ago, but I was too young and naive to make realistic predictions. Sensors on the other hand never thought about the future, so they had zero expectations to compare the World with. These and many other negative experiences in life have made me skeptical about how realistic it is to push my ideas to the World and that has perhaps triggered those INTP-like "dark side"* features in me. I have adapted to be like an INTP because that's when I don't have an urge to push my ideas out to the World or achieve much, but that doesn't change the fact that my brain is ultimately wired to be an INTJ. I have developed very detailed fantasies were I have the power to "do me" and shape the reality around me exactly as I want it to be. If this theory is correct, it would explain why I have felt so confused about my identity for the last 20 years or so. Knowing INTJ is the "true me" helps a lot. I know what parts of me are manifestation of negative experiences, frustrations and disappointments.

* Those are "dark side" features for INTJs. For INTP they are default features of course.

That's all I'll write for now as I have a damn job application to do!  :o

Quote from: 71 dB on May 15, 2023, 03:19:53 AM1. Personality types are about the preferences. Everybody can use all of the 8 cognitive functions, but depending on how our brains are "wired", using certain functions is easier to us than others. My INTJ brain is good at (wired to) analysing the underlying logic and patterns in the external World meaning I don't lose much mental energy doing that, but the same brain is badly wired for handling social situations and sensory data and that's why I lose mental energy very fast when I have to interact with a group of people or my senses are overstimulated. No wonder I prefer being alone or with only a couple of close people rather than taking my ass to situations where masses have been summoned. No wonder I prefer listening to music home alone instead of going to concerts! No wonder I don't have a need to travel. Personality types explain so much! Anyway, no two INTJs have their brain wired exactly the same way. It's just that INTJs have brains that are closest to the "wiring model" named INTJ. The same, of course, goes for the other 15 types.

2. Yeah, the bottom functions manifest themselves in stressful situations were our top functions can't fully handle the situation. It is our dark side to use some Star Wars terminology. It is about becoming someone we don't think we are.

3. Well thanks! Nice if I could help you clarify things. I think I am a frustrated INTJ, because I feel I can't push my ideas out to the World (the World seems to be ready for new ideas only when there is money to make and otherwise traditions are valued over new concepts). I am also very disappointed about how the World has turned out in the 21st century. Instead of increased wisdom and knowledge we have social media brainwashed ignorants. Instead of peace on Earth we have wars. Instead of having solved problems with technology we have created new problems with it. Instead of having more democracy we see more and more countries moving toward dictatorship. Now I understand why the World as it is today is so disappointed to me: As an INTJ I envisioned the 21st century decades ago, but I was too young and naive to make realistic predictions. Sensors on the other hand never thought about the future, so they had zero expectations to compare the World with. These and many other negative experiences in life have made me skeptical about how realistic it is to push my ideas to the World and that has perhaps triggered those INTP-like "dark side"* features in me. I have adapted to be like an INTP because that's when I don't have an urge to push my ideas out to the World or achieve much, but that doesn't change the fact that my brain is ultimately wired to be an INTJ. I have developed very detailed fantasies were I have the power to "do me" and shape the reality around me exactly as I want it to be. If this theory is correct, it would explain why I have felt so confused about my identity for the last 20 years or so. Knowing INTJ is the "true me" helps a lot. I know what parts of me are manifestation of negative experiences, frustrations and disappointments.

* Those are "dark side" features for INTJs. For INTP they are default features of course.

That's all I'll write for now as I have a damn job application to do!  :o

Very nice insight here.

But I have to say, there's one thing you are saying which is not necessarily correlated to INTJ, but you are literally spelling out the Rejection triad aspect of enneagram 5 (in Object relations). The issue is that INTJ's aren't only enneagram 5, they can be other types like 6 as well.

So for later, when you get around to it....

Attachment types (3,6,9) tie their ego to their environment as a sort of compromise to get their needs, they are the most hopeful.

Frustration types (1,4,7) tie their ego to their ideals so they tend to find reality disappointing, they tend to have dashed hopes.

Rejection types (5,2,8) don't have any such hopes of getting needs met. They are the least likely to even be aware that they even could ask for help with something (laughing at myself on this). So as a result of this subconscious rejection of needs, they have a "go it alone" approach to their centers. This in turn means their relationship to the world will end up looking like they are offering something to the world rather than looking for something or being picky about what it isn't.

Your talk about offering your ideas is your ego speaking, you ARE your ideas. Rejection types are the most inhuman types but they operate from a position of power as a result of that rejection of needs. It's leverage ("I am the only one who can offer this, you have to go through me to attain it.")

5 is saying "I don't need help or guidance" (like 6), "instead look at the ideas I have to offer." It will also lead to some Rejection sensitivity that you are experiencing when the world doesn't care (kinda the reason why they are called Rejection types).

The interactions I've seen here confirm this, I have see an attitude of not truly needing the political people you follow but using them to gather information.

There are 6s here that don't understand this mentality.... I'm dumbfounded by their assumption of me or you being some diehard committed follower, but people tend to be like this (type 6s cling tight "attach to" the reliable sources).

It's more of a heuristical thinking on their part, I've learned that recently. When you say something and they ask you your source they are trying to see if it's reliable... their big fear is being misled or deceived, ours is having inner resources depleted.

I can go on and on about this.... I should stop here lol.

I wonder if there is a correlation between personality type and the preference of scales in music, for example modes of the Major scale. Are you a Dorian person or a Lydian person? Perhaps you are into the "boring" Major scale?

I like Phrygian mode for the exotic feel (Phrygian dominant even more!) and Lydian scale for its brightness and dreamy otherworldliness. My least favorite modes of the Major scale are Dorian and Mixolydian. They sound plain/casual to me. Ionian Mode is also kind of boring, but at least it doesn't pretend being something edgy. It's just the "default" scale in music and works well as that.

Of course good music can be written using any of the scales and it would be quite "stupid" to use Phrygian or Lydian modes to write classic rock for example, but if we look at the character of different modes, this is what I feel and I suppose it is at least partly connected to my own personality.

That is something I'm shocked I haven't even thought about yet. Maybe I have and just got interrupted by something else.


I can think of a few:

Lydian
Half-Whole Diminished
These scales: A A# B D# E F
A A# B C# D D# F F# G
(idk the name)
regardless, the tritone is my interval.

Chordswise, have really been into something like C F# E and then modulating down a half-step.
I use it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WKLGGpPK7s

9:25 mark, along with some chromatic-ish stuff to give a really creepy-sensual vibe for the guitar duet.




btw, I posted a typing video online and got a few commenters of several people who have been into enneagram for a while, and they all think either sp or sx 5. So just more general confirmation from different sources.

One interesting comment is my speech style being "monotone-staccato" (also with a droopy intonation tendency).

They also mentioned INTJ as my type... I read about Fe PolR and that seemed accurate to me.

Quote from: greg on September 28, 2023, 03:49:54 PMLydian
Half-Whole Diminished

As you probably know, I started to get into music theory only about 5 years ago. Half-Whole scale is something I am only beginning to get interested of. I am not familiar with it at all.

Quote from: greg on September 28, 2023, 03:49:54 PMThese scales: A A# B D# E F
A A# B C# D D# F F# G
(idk the name)

A A# B D# E F is A Stadimic scale (3640)
A A# B C# D D# F F# G is A Stynygic scale (3822)
https://www.allthescales.org/index.php (https://www.allthescales.org/index.php)?

Quote from: greg on September 28, 2023, 03:49:54 PMregardless, the tritone is my interval.

It certainly has some bite to it! I was surprised how much I like the Locrian scale for its diminished tonic chord! :P

Oh nice, thanks for looking them up, now I know their names!  8)

Quote from: greg on September 29, 2023, 03:01:40 PMOh nice, thanks for looking them up, now I know their names!  8)

You're welcome! 8)

---

While looking those scales up I noticed the scale named Magian (3922),  which looks cool for a scale name. I decided to try making a techno track using it. Techno music uses almost always minorish scales like Phrygian or Aeolian. Techno also favours scales starting from E, F, F# or G, because those scales put the tonic between 40 and 50 Hz for the bass, which is optimal range for strong deep bass in the clubs. So, selecting F as the tonic, the F Magian scale is:

F  F#  G  G#  A#  C  D#.

Since F Phrygian is:

F  G♭  A♭  B♭  C  D♭  E♭,

we see Magian scale should be darker than Phrygian scale which is nice if we try to make dark techno.

Techno uses often very simple chord progressions (sometimes even staying on the same chord all the time!). I decided to try a two-chord progression: Fm^(add9) - E♭m⁶. This makes the bass alternate between F1 (43.7 Hz) and G♭1 (46.2 Hz). I also want to hammer home this scale contains both G♭ and G while F Aeolian contains only G and F Phrygian only G♭ of the two notes.

As for the riffs and melodies go, I don't know yet, but I think it would be "wise" to use the C - E♭ minor third interval in the melody to "show" the listener the D♭ note is "missing" to further make the scale sound different from the other more common minor scales.

Well, these are just thoughts for future projects. It can take a long time before I even start with this if at all. At the moment I am "busy" with my current project: "Harpeggiator".

Anyone ever hear of this term called PDA?


Kinda have been obsessed with it because I believe it describes the underlying roots of what has always driven my psychology beneath the surface. All of the typology stuff seems more surface-level ways of managing this.

I can give countless life examples of this, and it's observable moment to moment.

The only time I ever went to a psychiatrist, she literally spelled out that this is my issue, but never names the actual term, because... idk, either she didn't know or didn't want to mention stuff that isn't in the DSM. It's not widely known. It's also considered part of autism (which I don't have, though).

But it does explain the sleep issues and ADHD and the one autistic-like trait that I have (monotropism)- it's the sole cause.

It's a weird thing to have when you are more of a nicer, quieter, type of person. And can make seeing it/understanding it confusing, because it's not quite explicit in its presentation.

It's like the nervous system is an absolutely pure dictator... no, more like an absolute demon, that doesn't want to cooperate with anyone at all, but at the same time you have plenty of empathy and want to get along and do the right thing like a normal person. So it's really exhausting and makes existing in the world feel very oppressive and you just want to be alone all the time to avoid any expectations.


Also, literally just going directly against another person, or some generalized expectation, but seeing it's still all okay, is what provides a lot of relief and calms the nerves. That's the autonomy part. Probably a big component of how I became passionate about the things I like. My attention gets pulled in by what I should not be doing, and that is the most captivating.

QuoteLet's talk about the concept of Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), though I prefer Tomlin Wilding's interpretation: Pervasive Drive for Autonomy. I prefer this name because it is less judgmental, but also because it focuses less on demand avoidance (which can be caused by an endless number of things) and more on the core issue: the drive for autonomy. PDA is not a formal diagnosis in the DSM-5 or ICD-10, and it is not well known in the U.S., though it is widely acknowledged in the U.K.


The core of PDA is an anxiety-driven need for autonomy. PDA causes someone to avoid demands and expectations for the sole purpose of remaining in control. When faced with a demand (even a really minor one), PDAers can have extreme reactions.


These intense reactions can be to demands that seem really minor to others (e.g., putting one glass in the dishwasher, doing one math problem, taking a shower). PDAers even have this intense negative reaction to demands that they themselves WANT to meet. They often really want to do it (be productive, be compliant, go to school, do the homework, have a job, etc.) but they cannot, because the anxiety is so intense. There is an incredibly strong feeling of "I can't have my freedom be impinged on by external demands."

https://www.drdonnahenderson.com/post/grow-your-blog-community


the negative reactions can vary, but it's freeze response for me.

I took this Autism online (https://psychology-tools.com/test/autism-spectrum-quotient) test.

My score was 40 out of a possible 50.
Scores in the 33-50 range indicate significant Autistic traits (Autism).

Some of the questions were difficult to answer and I wish there was option "I don't know." For example the question

9. I am fascinated by dates.

This is a bit difficult to interpret for a non-native English speaker. Dates as in "Feb. 28, 2024", meeting someone for relationship intentions or the fruits of Phoenix dactylifera, commonly known as the date palm?  :D Could be anything of these without additional context. Maybe I need to take an idiotism test too?  :D 

Your score was 17 out of a possible 50.

Scores in the 0-25 range indicate few or no Autistic traits.

Quote from: 71 dB on February 28, 2024, 08:00:31 AMI am fascinated by dates.

I think this is something for @Cato 's Grammar Grumble Thread. Shouldn't it be data rather than dates?  ;D 

Quote from: Florestan on February 28, 2024, 10:28:23 AMI think this is something for @Cato 's Grammar Grumble Thread. Shouldn't it be data rather than dates?  ;D 

But data is the plural of datum.

     I prefer to concentrate on the essentials typewise.

     Does my personality make me look fat?

Quote from: Florestan on February 28, 2024, 10:24:59 AMYour score was 17 out of a possible 50.

Scores in the 0-25 range indicate few or no Autistic traits.

Interesting!

Quote from: Florestan on February 28, 2024, 10:24:59 AMYour score was 17 out of a possible 50.

Scores in the 0-25 range indicate few or no Autistic traits.

I scored exactly the same!

Quote from: 71 dB on February 28, 2024, 08:00:31 AMFor example the question

9. I am fascinated by dates.

Quote from: Florestan on February 28, 2024, 10:28:23 AMI think this is something for @Cato 's Grammar Grumble Thread. Shouldn't it be data rather than dates?  ;D 

Yes, "data" for bits of information.  "Dates" is the plural for calendar days and for the fruit!   8) 

Quote from: DavidW on February 28, 2024, 04:52:28 PMI scored exactly the same!

Most people are neurotypical (hence the name!) meaning they'll score 25 or less in this kind of tests. The rules and conventions of social interaction are for the most part set up by neurotypical people for whom these rules are not a huge burden, but for us autistic people these rules can be brutal. My brain cannot process a complex social situation almost at all. Making eye contact is unpleasant (almost hurts). On the other hand neurotypicals have a feel of uncanny valley when dealing with an autistic person, because this person seems "almost human", kind of very human robot.

What makes things worse is how little people understand autism. Even I as an autistic person understand these things only now at age 53! I always thought autistic people are IQ-50 savants with a specific supertalent, but unable to communicate verbally or functioning in society. That's how autistic people are always portrayed in movies etc. However, autism is a spectrum. My autism is somewhat mild and not always apparent. I can interact socially with ONE person almost as well as neurotypicals, but when it is about more people, my brain tilts because it can't perform the multitasking required. Autistic people concentrate (deeply) on one thing at the time.

That's why I am so frustrated and depressed. The game is rigged against me. You neurotypicals can't understand me so you won't. Sure, I can't understand neurotypicals any better, but at least the game is rigged for neurotypicals so they don't suffer from it.   

Quote from: 71 dB on February 29, 2024, 03:16:37 AMThat's why I am so frustrated and depressed. The game is rigged against me. You neurotypicals can't understand me so you won't. Sure, I can't understand neurotypicals any better, but at least the game is rigged for neurotypicals so they don't suffer from it.   

If I had taken the test in my late teens / early 20s I'd have scored much higher because back then I was much more shy, introverted and socially awkward, preferring the company of books to that of people. I have changed a lot since then and nowadays I am adjusted just fine to my environment and to the world at large. The only regret I have is that I didn't acquire a brawler spirit, because there are moments when I really feel like punching and kicking the jerks that come my way.  :D

Quote from: Florestan on February 29, 2024, 04:33:48 AMIf I had taken the test in my late teens / early 20s I'd have scored much higher because back then I was much more shy, introverted and socially awkward, preferring the company of books to that of people.

That is because that online test is for fun, it is garbage.  Not an official diagnostic that has to be completed be a professional.  Just being an introvert doesn't put one on the spectrum. 

Quote from: 71 dB on February 29, 2024, 03:16:37 AMYou neurotypicals can't understand me so you won't.   

I think you seriously lack faith in humanity.  Do your friends and family honestly have no empathy for you?  And on what basis do you classify yourself anyway?  An online test?  I'm sorry but it sounds like you're looking for excuses to feel sorry for yourself.  If you truly are neuro-divergent, counseling can help you relate to others and help build social skills.  I've known plenty of people that ACTUALLY ARE, as in diagnosed, and with care of wellness counselors and psychiatrists live a fulfilling life.

Quote from: DavidW on February 29, 2024, 08:32:40 AMThat is because that online test is for fun, it is garbage.  Not an official diagnostic that has to be completed be a professional.  Just being an introvert doesn't put one on the spectrum. 

Of course I took the test for fun only, I'm well aware such online tests are anything but scientifically accurate and have only an entertainment value.

Quote from: DavidW on February 29, 2024, 08:40:42 AMI think you seriously lack faith in humanity.

Can you look at what happens in the World and have faith in humanity? Good for you!

Quote from: DavidW on February 29, 2024, 08:40:42 AMDo your friends and family honestly have no empathy for you?

They do, but autistic people don't have many friends to begin with.

Quote from: DavidW on February 29, 2024, 08:40:42 AMAnd on what basis do you classify yourself anyway?  An online test?

I have known for a few years now to have autistic traits. The test was to have some sort of picture about how strong these traits are. According to the test I am 40/50. That's close to how I feel myself about my autistic traits. No big surprises here.

Quote from: DavidW on February 29, 2024, 08:40:42 AMI'm sorry but it sounds like you're looking for excuses to feel sorry for yourself.  If you truly are neuro-divergent, counseling can help you relate to others and help build social skills. I've known plenty of people that ACTUALLY ARE, as in diagnosed, and with care of wellness counselors and psychiatrists live a fulfilling life.

I think Finland is a developing country when it comes to these things. One time I sent an email to an autism society and never got an email back. Also, why do I need to build social skills, when what I need is a society that recognises some people don't have those skills. Just as not all people are good at math.