Is there a thread on this giant of German opera? I couldn't find it! So here it is:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/eb/Richardwagner1.jpg)
"Wilhelm Richard Wagner (22 May 1813 – 13 February 1883) was a German composer, conductor, music theorist, and essayist, primarily known for his operas (or "music dramas" as they were later called). Unlike most other great opera composers, Wagner always wrote the scenario and libretto for his works himself.
Wagner's compositions, particularly those of his later period, are notable for their contrapuntal texture, rich chromaticism, harmonies and orchestration, and elaborate use of leitmotifs: musical themes associated with specific characters, locales, or plot elements. Wagner pioneered advances in musical language, such as extreme chromaticism and quickly shifting tonal centres, which greatly influenced the development of European classical music."
Straight from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner.
I haven't explored his instrumental music seriously yet, aside from hearing a track or two of Karajan's Preludes to his music dramas. How is he like, compared to Bruckner and Mahler? I know people usually group these three guys together and give them pretty names like "Holy Trinity". I know I love Anton and Gustav, so I thought I might be interested in Richard as well. So is he accessible? Where should I start? Ring Cycle? Lohengrin?
Two things: First, "Wagner's Valhalla," as I recall, is the existing Wagner thread here. There are other threads on specific topics.
Second, start with an overtures-and-preludes disc, like the splendid Otto Klemperer disc on EMI. Then work your way into a bleeding-chunks set, like the Karl Böhm Best of the Ring set on Philips. Move into some of the shorter operas, like Der fliegende Holländer (Keilberth '55, Klemperer '68), Lohengrin (Von Matacic '59), or Tannhäuser (Sinopoli '89). After you've digested those, hit up Tristan und Isolde (Böhm '66, Runnicles '06) and Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg (Von Karajan '71, Barenboim '99). After that, approach Der Ring des Nibelungen slowly and carefully, taking time to understand the music, the words, and the overall plot (Solti, Knappertsbusch '56, Barenboim). After that, which should take some time, head on over to Parsifal, just as slowly and carefully as the Ring (Knappertsbusch '62/'64, Kubelík '80, Thielemann '06).
Do that, making sure to really understand the text and plot, as well as the music, getting new recordings and relistening until you see what Wagner is doing.
Forget about Mahler and Bruckner when approaching Wagner. They were following his lead, not the other way 'round.
Quote from: Bonehelm on December 11, 2007, 05:09:02 PM
Is there a thread on this giant of German opera? I couldn't find it! So here it is:
The 'official' Wagner thread is on the Opera Board.
Not everything he wrote was operas. The one completed symphony with later revisions is one of my favourite symphonies ever, by anybody. Plus, he wrote one hell of a... well, three hells of piano sonatas. Er... anyway, yeah. #2 was really great. I recommend the Möller 2 CDs of all Wagner's known piano works. But the 1 and a half symphonies are really outstanding. Wagner could have been a real titan on the symphonic stage had he pursued that path, after listening to his self-revised Symphony in C I'm sure of it. One really neat thing is how in the first movement, right after the slow introduction (one of the best ever, by the way) ends, and the faster tempo picks up, it just sounds so much like Wagner, the shimmering violins and all that, it's just terrific. Clara Wieck used Wagner's success with his symphony to egg Robert Schumann on in a letter, and he started on his never-completed Symphony #0 "Zwickau".
While I can understand why people look past his earliest surviving opera Die Feen, considering the impact of his later stuff, I've always really liked it. Okay, to be fair, I don't like most of Wagner's later stuff, and Die Feen is my favourite vocal work of his, but this really is not a bad Weberian opera, IMO.
Thank y'all for the suggestions. Looks like he isn't THAT hard to listen to (I'm listening to a legally downloaded high bit rate mp3 of the tannhäuser overture right now. Pretty straight forward.
Quote from: Bonehelm on December 11, 2007, 06:47:02 PM
Thank y'all for the suggestions. Looks like he isn't THAT hard to listen to (I'm listening to a legally downloaded high bit rate mp3 of the tannhäuser overture right now. Pretty straight forward.
It isn't hard to
listen to Wagner. People have been doing it in movie theaters and on TV for a while now. It's much, much harder to absorb and attempt to grasp what Wagner was saying in his music. Don't let his ability to write a catchy tune on occasion fool you.
Quote from: PSmith08 on December 11, 2007, 08:18:54 PM
It isn't hard to listen to Wagner. People have been doing it in movie theaters and on TV for a while now. It's much, much harder to absorb and attempt to grasp what Wagner was saying in his music. Don't let his ability to write a catchy tune on occasion fool you.
Yes, but at MY level, catchy tune is the main thing that attracts me to new composers for further exploration. I also like the overwhelming power of Mahler and the gothic grandeur of Bruckner. :)
Quote from: Bonehelm on December 11, 2007, 09:03:41 PM
Yes, but at MY level, catchy tune is the main thing that attracts me to new composers for further exploration. I also like the overwhelming power of Mahler and the gothic grandeur of Bruckner. :)
In that case, Wagner will have something for you often as not. Just remember, though, that Wagner was influential for a lot of reasons. Not least was the way he revolutionized music and the post-Romantic musical grammar. Without Wagner, there is no powerful Mahler nor is there grand Bruckner.
If you have trouble getting Wagner, speak up. Someone will help you.
Have been browsing through lot of old topics lately. Forgive me for bringing this up.To all beginners with Wagner my advice is: save Tristan for the very last. I remember that when I first listened to Tristan I reacted like most of the critics back in 1865: I didn't get it. I was disappointed. I had heard all the praise for this revolutionary work in classical music history and after I finally heard it it just didn't live up to my expectations. It was only after relistenings and careful studying of the score that this monumental divine work finally opened to me and it has ever since been one of my favorite classical music works of all time.
I started with Ring, then moved on to Tannhäuser, then Meistersinger, Fliegende Holländer, Lohengrin, Tristan and finally Parsifal. Then I listened to Rienzi, die Feen, das Liebesverbot and the remaining few musical numbers from die Hochzeit. Then after having gone through the operas I listened to Siegfried Idyll, his magnificent C major symphony, many of his piano works, Wesendonck lieder (including version of "Träume" for violin and orchestra), Faust overture, etc. It is pity his early D major string quartet is lost. It possibly would not have been a masterpiece, being one of his most early compositions, but I think it is possible I could have enjoyed it. Siegfried Idyll itself is almost like chamber music work. Many of his early works are great IMHO.
It is interesting that the Wagner thread is almost empty here in the Composer section of GMG. So all discussion in regards to his life and times lives in the Wagner thread on the Opera section? Peculiar!
The main issue is that there are several threads created in the Opera section that deals with Wagner. Since there is no index in that realm it seems as if people generally create a new topic around the Ring operas. Do a search on Wagner and check out the numerous threads with his name in it. A bit confusing to say the least. Is Wagner's Valhalla the main thread devoted to his music and times?
Why does Solti's Ring Cycle from the 50's and 60's sound so much better than practically anything recorded at that time? It sounds like it was recorded yesterday with state of the art equipment.
Quote from: relm1 on May 20, 2019, 08:22:15 AM
Why does Solti's Ring Cycle from the 50's and 60's sound so much better than practically anything recorded at that time? It sounds like it was recorded yesterday with state of the art equipment.
Are you sure it's not the re- or re-remastered version you're listening to? To my knowledge that was done decades later.
Remastering helps with some things but it cannot completely transform recordings from mediocre to great.
I am not an audiophile at all but there are many recordings from the late 1950s to the mid 60s besides the Solti Ring that are revered for there excellent sound. Some included in those "Living stereo" or "Living Presence" series, but e.g. also lots or Ansermet's stereo recordings from Decca and maybe more (as I said, I am not really into that audio stuff).
Quote from: Jaakko Keskinen on May 20, 2019, 09:06:22 AM
Are you sure it's not the re- or re-remastered version you're listening to? To my knowledge that was done decades later.
The one i have is this:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51H1ohKx5KL._SX425_.jpg)
Are there subsequent remastered versions?
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 28, 2019, 11:42:44 AM
The one i have is this:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51H1ohKx5KL._SX425_.jpg)
Are there subsequent remastered versions?
There are two subsequent remastered editions.
I have the second of the three.
[asin]B0000042H4[/asin]
FWIW, I find the sound good, but typical of the Decca productions of it era.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 28, 2019, 11:46:50 AM
There are two subsequent remastered editions.
I have the second of the three.
[asin]B0000042H4[/asin]
FWIW, I find the sound good, but typical of the Decca productions of it era.
Is it all that different from the orginal? I clicked on your link I don't see anything proclaiming remastered, i would have thought they just packed it differently.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 28, 2019, 11:53:56 AM
Is it all that different from the orginal? I clicked on your link I don't see anything proclaiming remastered, i would have thought they just packed it differently.
The original CD edition was '85, this is '98. I remember there was major hype about how the latest remastering/noise shaping was used in the '98 issue. I never heard the original CD edition, so I can't say how they compare. I don't think I've even heard all of the edition I have. I never found the Solti Ring to my liking. I noticed one amazon review claims that the '98 edition they ran the tape for Rheingold at the wrong speed and the entire opera is a semitone sharp. You'd think someone would have noticed.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 28, 2019, 12:09:20 PM
The original CD edition was '85, this is '98. I remember there was major hype about how the latest remastering/noise shaping was used in the '98 issue. I never heard the original CD edition, so I can't say how they compare. I don't think I've even heard all of the edition I have. I never found the Solti Ring to my liking. I noticed one amazon review claims that the '98 edition they ran the tape for Rheingold at the wrong speed and the entire opera is a semitone sharp. You'd think someone would have noticed.
How do you run the tape at the wrong speed and get a semitone higher? I have a hard time believing that.
Amazon is offering this one free with a music subscription:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51qhYQqacFL._AA256_.jpg)
I don't know if it is the same as the '98. I don't think it is a semitone sharp, it does have some fairly intrusive background noise not found in the original cds.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 28, 2019, 03:02:14 PM
How do you run the tape at the wrong speed and get a semitone higher? I have a hard time believing that.
Amazon is offering this one free with a music subscription:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51qhYQqacFL._AA256_.jpg)
I don't know if it is the same as the '98. I don't think it is a semitone sharp, it does have some fairly intrusive background noise not found in the original cds.
I don't believe it either. Some reviewer claim about the tape deck not being calibrated right because AC line power in Vienna was different than in London, messing up the running speed of the tape decks.
I don't know what version they are streaming, but the cover art you show is associated with a Blu Ray release based on another new, high resolution transfer. Lately they've been releasing a new high-resolution master without bothering to update the CD version, so who knows.
Anyway, my experience is that there can be a significant improvement over very early CD releases (1980s) but otherwise remasters are rarely a noticeable improvement. There is the occasional exception, when they dig up a better source tape.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 28, 2019, 11:53:56 AM
Is it all that different from the orginal? I clicked on your link I don't see anything proclaiming remastered, i would have thought they just packed it differently.
This edition was 'de-hissed' in 1997. In the accompanying booklets James Lock, presumably the sound engineer, explains the challenge they had in removing tape-hiss without 'damaging the musical end result'. They lessened the hiss but left in various extraneous noises - creaking chairs etc. How it compares with earlier versions I have no idea.
At the time it was treated as a premium project by Decca - just the recording spanning 8 years - and accordingly their production values were set very high, even by Decca's and the VPO's own standards of the time - especially during the latter part of the project.
I unreservedly recommend the book Ring Resounding by John Culshaw who was the producer (pictured below with Brunhilde Birgit Nilsson) - available in all formats including Kindle but s/h hardcopy can be found very cheaply, with lots of good photos of the sessions. Also free e-book formats, even as pdf, no excuse not to read it. It's a blow-by-blow account of the whole recording project from first to last - and is a surprisingly good yarn even if you have no interest in Wagner's music or no interest in the technicalities of recording at that time - which is not Culshaw's main focus actually - his story is more about difficult casting decisions and diplomatically 'letting go' some big names, then continually wrestling with the egos of the various artistes and the combined might of the orchestra who were not above throwing their weight around, almost the only person who seemed to give no trouble was Solti himself.
It's a book I've treasured for 50 years - much longer in fact than I've known the recording or the music.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41qIyN1dWGL._SX310_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
(https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_800%2C$height_450/t_crop_fill/q_86%2Cf_auto/e3e5feb26d4aeb9c65ee6f71f3a9343e6b9b5f3f)
Quote from: aukhawk on May 29, 2019, 02:43:11 AM
At the time it was treated as a premium project by Decca - just the recording spanning 8 years - and accordingly their production values were set very high, even by Decca's and the VPO's own standards of the time - especially during the latter part of the project.
I unreservedly recommend the book Ring Resounding by John Culshaw who was the producer (pictured below with Brunhilde Birgit Nilsson) - available in all formats including Kindle but s/h hardcopy can be found very cheaply, with lots of good photos of the sessions. Also free e-book formats, even as pdf, no excuse not to read it. It's a blow-by-blow account of the whole recording project from first to last - and is a surprisingly good yarn even if you have no interest in Wagner's music or no interest in the technicalities of recording at that time - which is not Culshaw's main focus actually - his story is more about difficult casting decisions and diplomatically 'letting go' some big names, then continually wrestling with the egos of the various artistes and the combined might of the orchestra who were not above throwing their weight around, almost the only person who seemed to give no trouble was Solti himself.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41qIyN1dWGL._SX310_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
(https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_800%2C$height_450/t_crop_fill/q_86%2Cf_auto/e3e5feb26d4aeb9c65ee6f71f3a9343e6b9b5f3f)
It is indeed an excellent read, as is Culshaw's autobiography 'Putting the Record Straight'. Reading both you have to bear in mind that there was another massive ego in play - Culshaw's own.
Amazing that the Wagner thread is so sparse. All the Wagnering must be going on elsewhere?
Well, I got to see the Ring in Budapest last month -- and Adam Fischer and his Hungarian Ntl. RSO were a marvelous surprise (almost as much as Concerto Budapest with Keller). As was the cast, to the extent it was unknown: Superb! Pictures of Rheingold here: Bayreuth on the Danube: The Budapest Wagner Days. Production Photos from Das Rheingold (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2019/07/bayreuth-on-danube-budapest-wagner-days.html)
...and the first part of my review on ClassicsToday here: A Magnificent Budapest Ring: Prelude and Rheingold (https://www.classicstoday.com/a-magnificent-budapest-ring-prelude-and-rheingold/)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NciT6PJ1G6s/XSCowHm3FuI/AAAAAAAALN8/Z5Y4Yy0kG-gr3BlLgr1IE8C2klSc4dItACLcBGAs/s640/RING_%2528c%2529JAnosPosztOs_MUpa_Budapest_FASOLT-FAFNER_WOTAN_Scene.jpeg)
Herr Tesla's Adventures in Brabant"—Piotr Beczala's Lohengrin (Blu-ray)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAl4-3zWkAAASBS?format=jpg&name=small) (https://t.co/QXrcB4292j?amp=1)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 06, 2019, 08:25:08 AM
Amazing that the Wagner thread is so sparse. All the Wagnering must be going on elsewhere?
This board is famous for not having a lot of Wagnerians (besides me plus the Wagnerian-named members).
That sounds like a fantastic show and I'm deeply envious.
There has been more Wagner-related discussions in the "Opera and Vocal" section of the forum. For instance, there was quite a lot of postings in the past here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,113.2200.html) (although this too has been relatively quiet as of late). There's also threads dedicated to individual works (e.g. Die Meistersinger (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7751.80.html) or Parsifal (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8901.220.html)).
But yes, we Wagnerians appear to be a small (and select ;)) group here on GMG.
I've been here for over a decade and I never noticed that infamous lack of Wagnerians, despite being half one myself. Perhaps that speaks to how much they're lacking? ;D
Quote from: ritter on August 21, 2019, 08:03:20 AM
There has been more Wagner-related discussions in the "Opera and Vocal" section of the forum.
(embarrassed) Eewps, now I know I've been coming to the wrong topic all these years lol.
Recent #BluRayReview on ClassicsToday:
Slow Flow Beauty: A Tribute To Hans #Knappertsbusch (Blu-ray)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEkYAvyXsAE3QD9?format=jpg&name=small) (https://t.co/MFCzShsnXR?amp=1)
@ionarts #DipYourEars, No. 251 (Meet Lise Davidsen, the next Hochdramatische)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEN3DQ-XsAElpw5?format=jpg&name=small) (https://t.co/AwnmaaT7xA?amp=1)
From the
Wall Street Journal: a review by
Joseph Horowitz of a 700+ page book by
Alex Ross on
Wagner.
Quote
Great works of art are so powerfully imagined that their intent and expression mold to changing human circumstances. But the operas of Richard Wagner are arguably unique in this regard: No other creative genius in the Western canon so unerringly holds up a mirror to time and place.
In Gilded Age America, Wagner was a meliorist: a source of uplift whose anti-Semitism was minimized or ignored. In Nazi Germany, he was a tool for Hitler. During the fin de siècle decades, when Wagnerism peaked, he was the source of a surging cultural and intellectual wave, at once avant-garde and reactionary, political and aestheticist, nostalgic and prophetic. Thomas Mann's claim that Wagner was "probably the greatest talent in the entire history of art" cannot be dismissed as hyperbole.
Alex Ross's "Wagnerism: Art and Politics in the Shadow of Music" takes up Wagner's protean impact with unprecedented scope. In other writers' accounts, Wagnerism ends with World War I in Europe and America and, slightly later, in Soviet Russia (where Vladimir Tatlin's proposed monument to the Third International was inspired by Wagner's "The Flying Dutchman"). But in Mr. Ross's wide-ranging chronicle, Wagner's influence outside the world of music keeps on going: through the Third Reich and Hollywood to J.R.R. Tolkien (whose disclaimer of Wagner's influence "does not withstand scrutiny") and the German artist Anselm Kiefer ("whose decades-long negotiation with Wagner deserves comparison with that of Thomas Mann") and even Pope Francis (whose favorite Wagner opera is "Parsifal"). No previous writer has so copiously chronicled the sheer ubiquity of Wagner in important novels, poems and paintings. The result is an indispensable work of cultural history, offering both a comprehensive resource and a bravura narrative.
While the existing Wagner literature is vast and defies generalization, the best-known studies range from passionate advocacy to equally impassioned denunciation. Mr. Ross, who came late to Wagner, is a centrist—a circumspect, at times even diffident, Wagnerite. He writes: "The behemoth whispers a different secret in each listener's ear." Mr. Ross, the longtime music critic at the New Yorker and the author of "The Rest Is Noise" (2007), is able to become many listeners. Relatedly, there are limits to his degree of engagement—and Wagner is about commitment, however dangerous or misguided. These limits frame and modulate Mr. Ross's extraordinary book.
In a postlude, Mr. Ross confides his own Wagner journey as a 21st-century gay American operagoer and writes: "Many people have gone away from Wagner feeling uplifted, empowered, aggrandized. For me, he has more often brought revelations of my stupidity, my self-pity, my absurdity—in other words, my humanity." Wagner himself was more possessed of "humanity" than is generally asserted or assumed. His was in fact a personality as multifarious as his operas. The dramatist in Wagner created a musical stage peopled by powerful men and powerful women. As Mr. Ross richly details, Wagner's appeal to women and gays is a hallmark of his achievement. Writing about Marcel Proust and Wagner, Mr. Ross observes that "by the nineties, Wagner was well established as a code of gay taste." He calls Proust's "In Search of Lost Time" "one of the supreme Wagnerian creations, yet it is free of bombast, maintaining an intimate mode of address." Writing about Virginia Woolf's mostly concealed Wagnerian dimension, Mr. Ross is again keenly attuned to defining yet elusive subcurrents.
The author upon whom Mr. Ross lavishes the most attention is Willa Cather, whose Wagnerism—in her life as in her fiction—was an explicit leitmotif. As Joan Acocella demonstrated in her 2000 book "Willa Cather and the Politics of Criticism," Cather is a writer poisoned in our time by feminist psychosexual readings oblivious of Cather's own milieu. To understand Cather on her own terms requires understanding her formative relationship with Sieglinde, Brünnhilde and other Wagner heroines. Mr. Ross has here furnished a veritable Cather-Wagner compendium. He has also scored a scholarly coup, establishing that Cather's Nebraska piano teacher was the son of a prominent German conductor who once led "Rienzi" in Pest, with Wagner in attendance. Cather's achievement, Mr. Ross summarizes, "was to transpose Wagnerism into an earthier, more generous key. She offered grandeur without grandiosity, heroism without egoism, myth without mythology. Brünnhilde stays on her mountain crag, hailing the sun: no man breaks the ring of fire."
But is that all? In the early 20th century, most American Wagnerites were women, for whom Wagner was an antidote to lives marginalized in a man's world of work and money. And so it was with Cather, whose most insightful Wagner commentary diagnoses Kundry, in "Parsifal." One of Wagner's most original creations, Kundry oscillates between extremes of submission and domination. Cather's Kundry, at the Met, was Olive Fremstad, a Wagner soprano, Callas-like in veracity and intensity, with whom Cather became friends. Of Fremstad's Kundry, Cather writes that it "is a summary of the history of womankind. [Wagner] sees in her an instrument of temptation, of salvation, and of service; but always an instrument, a thing driven and employed. . . . She cannot possibly be at peace with herself. . . . [A] driven creature, [she is] made for purposes eternally contradictory."
Mr. Ross cites this commentary without comment. But read Cather, and read about Fremstad (who twice married abortively, identified with Ibsen's women and chopped wood in Scandinavian forests), and it all fits together. Wagner, for Willa Cather, was more than an inspirational artistic model: He was a therapist, a medium for self-understanding and empowerment.
This dimension of the Wagner experience is equally inescapable in considering the vexed topic of Wagner and the Jews. Wagner was a vile anti-Semite. Adolf Hitler was a confirmed Wagnerite. Whether a direct line links Wagner to the Holocaust is a permanently embattled question. Sifting the evidence, Mr. Ross is again a centrist, for whom Wagner is an influential racist but not a proto-Nazi. That Wagner was in his time notably surrounded by loyal Jewish friends and adherents is a fact requiring explanation.
Among the warmest, most animated reminiscences of Wagner the man is the book-length "Personal Recollections" of Angelo Neumann, the Jewish impresario who, in the 1880s, toured the "Ring" throughout Europe. The news of Wagner's death so stunned Neumann that, as he put it in his memoir, he "reeled into the next room and clutched the bed. . . . I felt within my soul that a god had left this earth." The peculiar intensity of affinity Wagner could arouse in Jews was perhaps most notably evinced by Hermann Levi, who conducted the premiere of "Parsifal" at Bayreuth. To his father, a rabbi, Levi wrote: "The most beautiful thing that I have experienced in my life is that it was granted to me to come close to such a man, and I thank God daily for this."
Or take the case of Gustav Mahler, who, as Mr. Ross observes, once argued that the devious dwarf Mime, in "Siegfried," was "intended by Wagner as a persiflage of a Jew." Mahler then added: "I know of only one Mime, and that is me." There is, however, more to this aside. Mahler also said: "No doubt with Mime, Wagner intended to ridicule the Jews with all their characteristic traits . . . the jargon is textually and musically so cleverly suggested; but for God's sake it must not be exaggerated and overdone. . . . You wouldn't believe what there is in that part, nor what I could make of it." For Mahler, Wagner exquisitely understood the Jew in Mime.
Mr. Ross ventures in a useful direction in considering the "special appeal" of "Lohengrin" for Jewish listeners: "The opera romanticizes the figure of the itinerant outsider who stands apart from the 'normal' community, much as many Jews perceived themselves within German society." As a lifelong Jewish Wagnerite, I would go the distance: Wagner is the supreme poet of homelessness, the master musical portraitist of marginality. He is Siegmund, an orphan of ambiguous parentage, who exclaims: "I am always unpopular. . . . Misery is all I know." He is Wotan and Tristan, who drop out. He is Hans Sachs, a lonely philosopher of pessimism. He is the cerebral Loge, whose irony is quick and irredeemable. As for Wagner himself, he suspected his actual father to have been Jewish. He fled the law as a political exile. He was always in debt. His enemies were numerous and powerful. His health was poor.
That he was himself a paradigmatic outsider explains many of the most impassioned, most therapeutic manifestations of Wagnerism, beginning with his appeal to gays and women, to whom he seemed, as to so many Jews, "one of us." And so he is also Parsifal, who may be read as androgynous; or Senta, Sieglinde and Brünnhilde, driven to flout convention because of oppressive circumstances—because of a brutish husband or clueless father.
If one were to further extrapolate the grand trajectory traced by Mr. Ross, where, finally, does his own "Wagnerism" fit, with its cool intellectualism and tenacious yet circumspect forms of engagement? I would place it alongside Patrice Chéreau's landmark 1976 Bayreuth production of "The Ring of the Nibelung." Chéreau, like Mr. Ross, came late to Wagner. He, too, was an open-ended revisionist, both critical and appreciative. Above all, his production was justly acclaimed, not least by Mr. Ross himself, as an exercise in cultural memory, culling allusions from history and the visual arts—"a panorama of Wagnerism in all its variegated glory."
And what next, for generations to come? Wagner is never cursory: There is no short course. Will there be enough cultural oxygen to sustain another half-century of Wagnerism? The final sentences of Mr. Ross's book sound discomfitingly pregnant. He is writing about the Good Friday Spell in "Parsifal," during which all living creatures "give thanks for the bright instant between birth and death. . . . As Parsifal sings, only the spear that caused [Amfortas's] wound can heal it. The spear is art itself: poetry, novels, painting, dance, theater, opera. . . . The slowness of the music, the ambiguity of it, the radical shiver of its emotions, the disquiet that so many people feel in its face: all this marks Wagner as a contrary voice in modern culture, a warning from the damaged past."
See:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/wagnerism-art-politics-in-the-shadow-of-music-review-the-outsider-11599836423 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/wagnerism-art-politics-in-the-shadow-of-music-review-the-outsider-11599836423)
Oh, I can dismiss it as hyperbole!
Great composer, but bloody hell!
Quote from: Cato on September 20, 2020, 06:57:05 AM
From the Wall Street Journal: a review by Joseph Horowitz of a 700+ page book by Alex Ross on Wagner.
See:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/wagnerism-art-politics-in-the-shadow-of-music-review-the-outsider-11599836423 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/wagnerism-art-politics-in-the-shadow-of-music-review-the-outsider-11599836423)
Most interesting, thanks! I don't agree with many of Mr.
Ross' views (in
The Rest is Noise), and didn't particularly admire how they were argued and presented, but might take a look at this new book.
Does anybody know that late Wagner was nearly, or totally, a Buddhist, and he even considered making an opera of Buddha's life?
Well, Leonard, Gray, Schonberg, and Parry say nothing of anything 'Buddha' in their chapters on him - if anything, only the rejection of any religion as a whole. I haven't picked up any revisionist biographies on Wagner - where did you read this new/surprising fact?
Quote from: Scion7 on September 20, 2020, 10:26:16 AM
Well, Leonard, Gray, Schonberg, and Parry say nothing of anything 'Buddha' in their chapters on him - if anything, only the rejection of any religion as a whole. I haven't picked up any revisionist biographies on Wagner - where did you read this new/surprising fact?
Tristan Chord. Bryan Magee. I don't know if it is true or not, though. But the author is a renowned academic.
Also, related web site here.
https://www.monsalvat.no/india.htm
Wagner liked Schopenhauer's version of Buddhism, I guess, but I don't think he was a Buddhist.
Wagner thought of composing a Buddhist-themed opera, Die Sieger, (The Victors) not that late in his career. The sketch (not surpassing one page of text) is from the mid-1850s. The idea was used rather cleverly by composer Jonathan Harvey for his very interesting opera Wagner Dream from 2007 (pity that librettist Jean-Claude Carrière's use of the English language is maladroit IMO).
Some Buddhist elements can be arguably detected in Parsifal as well, but there's a stretch from that to Wagner becoming "nearly, or totally, a Buddhist".
Quote from: ritter on September 20, 2020, 11:12:35 AM
Wagner thought of composing a Buddhist-themed opera, Die Sieger, (The Victors) not that late in his career. The sketch (not surpassing one page of text) is from the mid-1850s. The idea was used rather cleverly by composer Jonathan Harvey for his very interesting opera Wagner Dream from 2007 (pity that librettist Jean-Claude Carrière's use of the English language is rather maladroit IMO).
Some Buddhist elements can be arguably detected in Parsifal as well, but there's a stretch from that to Wagner becoming "nearly, or totally, a Buddhist".
Thank you for the clarification. I am not intending to advocate a new theory or re-write history. My apology if my writing or the subject annoyed your knowledge. Again, I appreciate that you clarified on this matter.
You haven't annoyed me in the least (I just happen to have read Wagner's draft for Die Sieger many years ago). Glad to have been of help :)
If you are interested in post-serial avant-gardism, that Harvey piece is quite fascinating, and has been released on CD:
(https://img.discogs.com/8scWiKsCgzXT2mCM42Rm8JeS7D8=/fit-in/500x500/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3643805-1338634248-4046.jpeg.jpg)
Cheers,
^ imagines Wagner having a kanipshin fit over that cover! 8)
Quote from: Jo498 on September 20, 2020, 11:08:43 AM
Wagner liked Schopenhauer's version of Buddhism, I guess, but I don't think he was a Buddhist.
Sounds right.
Ross's new book sounds great. I'll have to check it out.
His ... Noise is opinionated myopic hash. This has to be an improvement.
I heard that My Life, authored by Wagner, is fun to read. Any thought?
Volume 1 --- http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/5197/pg5197-images.html
Volume 2 --- http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/5144/pg5144-images.html
Have a go, old boy.
Critics consider it important for its view of the times.
I see there are a few haters of "The Rest is Noise" in this thread. I was wondering if either of you could elaborate on your feelings about the book. I enjoyed it as an overview of the music of the previous century, and found some of it to be very compelling (Mahler and Strauss at the Salome première at the very beginning, Schoenberg in '30s Berlin, etc.) though perhaps I was not paying close enough attention to the subtext. I read it over about a year, a few pages here and there.
Found it to be self-absorbed humdrum.
You must have skimmed over those parts. :P
Quote from: Scion7 on September 20, 2020, 03:46:46 PM
Found it to be self-absorbed humdrum.
You must have skimmed over those parts. :P
Entirely possible... I don't seem to remember all that much "self" in it at all.
Actually, I'm looking through it again and I think the main problem with it that left me with a bad taste in my mouth is the later chapters dealing with some of the modern/minimalist people. Lionizing Britten is always a red flag to me. He barely gives people like Vaughan Williams a mention, for example. He dips his toe into some talk of Jazz, but he'd have been better off leaving that all out entirely, because he does a disservice to the music by giving a couple of name-checks to Mingus and Coltrane and so on, but nothing much more. The chapters up to the death of Strauss are not bad, except for the sin of omission. Too much emphasis on Glass, Cage, etc., in the latter part of the book. I know there were some statements here and there in it that I haven't found again skimming through it tonight that set my teeth on edge at the time, and I dust-binned it for a reason. Oh, well - back to Siegfried Idyll . . .
NYT review.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/books/review/wagnerism-alex-ross.html
Quote from: Scion7 on September 20, 2020, 09:02:58 PM
Actually, I'm looking through it again and I think the main problem with it that left me with a bad taste in my mouth is the later chapters dealing with some of the modern/minimalist people. Lionizing Britten is always a red flag to me. He barely gives people like Vaughan Williams a mention, for example. He dips his toe into some talk of Jazz, but he'd have been better off leaving that all out entirely, because he does a disservice to the music by giving a couple of name-checks to Mingus and Coltrane and so on, but nothing much more. The chapters up to the death of Strauss are not bad, except for the sin of omission. Too much emphasis on Glass, Cage, etc., in the latter part of the book. I know there were some statements here and there in it that I haven't found again skimming through it tonight that set my teeth on edge at the time, and I dust-binned it for a reason. Oh, well - back to Siegfried Idyll . . .
I am still not through "The rest is noise"; I got it as a Xmas present 2017, don't remember when I started reading and took several breaks. My mark is in the Britten chapter. Overall it is highly opinionated and it very clearly shows that it was based on unsystematic columns or blog entries.
What are people's feelings on Wagner's piano works?
I was listening to the 3 piano sonatas a while ago.
Piano Sonata in Bb, Op. 1 (1831)
Piano Sonata in A, 'Grosse Sonate', Op. 4 (1832)
Piano Sonata in Ab (1853)
and the
Fantasia for piano in f#, WWV 22 (1831)
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 20, 2020, 02:34:12 PM
I heard that My Life, authored by Wagner, is fun to read. Any thought?
It depends on your idea of fun. I attempted to read it many years ago when I had more stamina but gave up less than halfway through. Turgid is the word I would use rather than 'fun'.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 20, 2020, 09:09:37 PM
NYT review.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/books/review/wagnerism-alex-ross.html
Written by no less than John Adams. The book sounds totally intriguing. I know almost nothing about Wagner but I've thought before about the subject matter, ie. how his music seems to tie into so many disparate artistic, cultural, and political movements throughout the 20th century. I will have to give this a read but I may wait until the price comes down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSwDnvtzUYI
nice version of Huldigungsmarsch in Eb, WWV 97 (1864) - for military band, as it was originally scored for ...
Quote from: Scion7 on September 20, 2020, 11:44:47 PM
What are people's feelings on Wagner's piano works?
I was listening to the 3 piano sonatas a while ago.
Piano Sonata in Bb, Op. 1 (1831)
Piano Sonata in A, 'Grosse Sonate', Op. 4 (1832)
Piano Sonata in Ab (1853)
and the
Fantasia for piano in f#, WWV 22 (1831)
I like Op. 4 and Elegy (Ab maj).
Also, fyi, an explanation of the so-called Tristan Chord by Pappano is here.
https://youtu.be/QcE3kSX_y_c
Enjoying this album. Takuya Niinomi is a graduate of Liszt Academy in Budapest, and he also had a master's degree in sociolinguistics from Hitotsubashi University, one of the top universities in Japan.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/818bQPjlyGL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 05, 2022, 12:38:06 PM
Enjoying this album. Takuya Niinomi is a graduate of Liszt Academy in Budapest, and he also had a master's degree in sociolinguistics from Hitotsubashi University, one of the top universities in Japan.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/818bQPjlyGL._SS500_.jpg)
I had a look at the pieces included, it looks an interesting recording! Maybe Wagner's piano music doesn't reach the mastery of his operas, but it is extremely enchanting anyway; especially the Elegie
Schmachtend, brief, but poetical and beautifully intense.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 05, 2022, 03:02:30 PM
I had a look at the pieces included, it looks an interesting recording! Maybe Wagner's piano music doesn't reach the mastery of his operas, but it is extremely enchanting anyway; especially the Elegie Schmachtend, brief, but poetical and beautifully intense.
Enjoy!