Just got hold of a disc with a few pieces on including his Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil- looks like forbidding stuff, but I haven't listened yet. Anyone know this composer?
Sean - What other pieces besides his final work is on the disc? As far as I know the only commercial recording of Quatre chants is the Kairos one and it is the only work on the the cd?
I can not say that Grisey is among my favorite late 20th century composers but he and Murail certainly help start a style of music that has produced some very absorbing music. I would say my favorite Spectral composer is Luc Brewaeys.
Check out Les Espaces Acoustiques. That's his masterwork (or one of them, at least).
Quote from: Sean on June 28, 2009, 12:55:18 AM
Just got hold of a disc with a few pieces on including his Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil- looks like forbidding stuff, but I haven't listened yet. Anyone know this composer?
Yep.
The
Quatre chants is one of my favourite late-20th-century works, a kind of spectralist
Das Lied von der Erde that I find extremely directly expressive. I don't find a lot of his earlier work appealing, but the late pieces provide me (at least) with a very interesting synthesis of tradition and spectralist experiemntation.
Quote from: edward on June 28, 2009, 08:17:00 AM
I don't find a lot of his earlier work appealing, but the late pieces provide me (at least) with a very interesting synthesis of tradition and spectralist experiemntation.
Grisey's late music is much less interested in spectralist experimentation and much more in how the listener perceives musical time. Time became Grisey's overriding concern in the mid-1980s, and for the rest of his life he was often frustrated at being labeled a spectralist composer.
Quote from: UB on June 28, 2009, 04:43:35 AM
Sean - What other pieces besides his final work is on the disc? As far as I know the only commercial recording of Quatre chants is the Kairos one and it is the only work on the the cd?
I can not say that Grisey is among my favorite late 20th century composers but he and Murail certainly help start a style of music that has produced some very absorbing music. I would say my favorite Spectral composer is Luc Brewaeys.
Hello folks, nice to see some well listened people around, as usual. UB, the disc I have is the WDR Kairos, with only the
Quatre chants on it, about 41 minutes; I heard it for the first time this afternoon and I don't think it's going to materialize into any masterpiece, needless to say, but it's serious and committed enough and the singing is dead on the note.
I know one or two microtonal glissando type pieces by Murail (and saw him play the Ondes martinot in
Turangalila once) but don't rate him much either- a bit grandiose and syrupy.
Don't know if you know
The Mother by Haba- tremendous work...
I know Mother - love the instrumental parts, but really dislike the screeching soprano. I do enjoy his suite for clarinet and piano, nonet #4 and other of his music. My favorite microtonal composer is probably Ivan Wyschnegradsky.
As to Murail, do you know his solo piano piece Les Travaux et les Jours I would think if you like Haba's quarter tone piano pieces, you would like this piece.
Although I have yet to hear Quatre Chants, I have heard Talea and Vortex temporum (the latter twice live), and enjoyed both immensely.
Just this past year I heard Les Espaces Acoustiques (the Asbury recording on Kairos), and thought it was mindblowing music. I also heard a live performance of one of the sections, Partiels, that reinforced initial impressions. But then, I am eating up spectral music as fast as I can hear it.
I also love Murail (have been listening to his Gondwana on repeat lately), but am not familiar with Luc Brewaeys, so thanks for that mention.
--Bruce
The few pieces by Murail I've tracked down are the orchestral L'Esprit des Dunes, which was quite evocative of deserts, and Partage des eaux, a kind of tour de force of added Messiaenic/ Scriabinian harmonics and microtones; I also had a couple of piano pieces recorded from the radio, Cloches d'adieu, et un sourire... and Territories de l'oubli. And I was at the first performance of his Time and again in the late 80s.
Works like Boulez' Repons or Exposante-fixe are in a similar, and to me ultimately unconvincing mould. Academics and famous music institutions like to go on about how important these minor post-war developments really are and of course many still flog straight Schoenbergianism, but you need to have real musical insight to begin to make things work in these idioms, and I doubt whether regular tonal divisions can ever be meaningfully replaced for art music. There is much value in them, so I like to listen and cover the ground, but I'm under no illusions either.
Quote from: Sean on June 30, 2009, 12:35:57 AM
Works like Boulez' Repons or Exposante-fixe are in a similar, and to me ultimately unconvincing mould. Academics and famous music institutions like to go on about how important these minor post-war developments really are...
A few of the electronic techniques heard in Radiohead's
In Rainbows record for example can be traced back to activity at IRCAM in the 1970s and 1980s. Certainly the noodling of a few academics there was not done in a total vacuum and did trickle down into pop music, which makes those works worthy of attention.
Here in Finland, the music of Kaija Saariaho is widely enjoyed even by a public which doesn't normally listen to modern-classical music. She gets an enormous amount of attention in the popular media. Saariaho's entire mature aesthetic was formed after arriving at IRCAM in the early 1980s, about the same time Boulez was finishing
Repons and thinking about the revision of
...explosante-fixe, so again IRCAM wasn't some hermetically sealed academic world.
That's good to hear about Saariaho, Chris. Btw, somehow I already knew you live in Finland. Oh, yeah, I remember from reading this a long time ago ;D :
http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yourself-Finnish-Complete-Course/dp/0071451072/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246375114&sr=8-1
CRCulver
I know what you're saying, though music academia is a remarkably sealed off from the real world of serious listeners. Also Saariaho is among the weakest and most overrated of all contemporary composers (and that's saying something)...
Quote from: Sean on June 30, 2009, 02:44:45 PM
I know what you're saying, though music academia is a remarkably sealed off from the real world of serious listeners. Also Saariaho is among the weakest and most overrated of all contemporary composers (and that's saying something)...
Aren't you contradicting yourself? You say that music scholarship and spectralist research has no connection to the real world, but when I point out that at least one composer is has both worked within those quasi-academic circles
and found success among the general public, you claim she is overrated.
Well maybe Saariaho has a few followers in Finland, I don't know. But academia's misguided pronouncements throughout the last century have almost destroyed art music, and certainly Saariaho is among those who absolutely don't really know what Sibelius achieved.
Quote from: Sean on July 01, 2009, 11:50:34 AM
Well maybe Saariaho has a few followers in Finland, I don't know. But academia's misguided pronouncements throughout the last century have almost destroyed art music, and certainly Saariaho is among those who absolutely don't really know what Sibelius achieved.
She does indeed have "a few followers" in Finland, and frankly many other places as well. ::) And as for her being "among those who absolutely don't really know what Sibelius achieved," I would be hesitant to make such a pronouncement--unless you've interviewed her, of course. ::)
But this thread isn't about Saariaho, it's about Grisey. I forgot to mention the personnel who played
Partiels: composer Matthias Pintscher led the Ensemble ACJW, a group of musicians just out of college, who did a terrific job with what must be a very difficult score. Not only does Pintscher turn out to be an excellent conductor, but the performance also reconfirmed the extremely high quality of young musicians emerging from schools these days. It is inspiring to me to see people in their early 20s who are able to navigate these scores with such ease and aplomb.
--Bruce
Sure thing Bruce. And of course Pintscher is in a similar realm, all wispy quiet timbrous (second rate) stuff.
I've heard a Pintscher work before, and totally understand what you're saying.
I have a cd by Murail w/ Les Esprit des Dunes, Serendib, and Disintegrations. This is the only "spectral" cd I have, though I'd like some more. I think it's perfect. Absolutely smooth processes woosh and swirl by and acoustic instruments sound like otherworldly synthesizers. I couldn't imagine a better example of spectralism, however...
I think I heard some early Grisey once, and found his processes there very aggressive...or...was it Dufourt "Surgir", or "Saturn?" I hear the Espaces Acoustiques is his big work. Again, all these guys' Amazonography sucks.
I've enjoyed most of what I've heard by Saariaho. I certainly find her sound indentifiable.
I have Pintscher's SQs w/ Arditti. (Rihm+Lachenmann)-maturity. There is one moment towards the end of his major SQ where the Arditti vocalizes a Gesualdo motet for three seconds, very cool, but the rest is pretty standard.
I'm going to bump my French Avant Thread.
Fair enough snyprrr, an informed reply anyway. The Murail Dunes is smoothly written though I thought overscored for French music. I know four pieces by Saariaho and I'd describe them as anonymous but I'll try again.
Sure thing Greg.
I have Saariaho's
...a la fumee/du cristal... and
Nymphea on Ondine.
Nymphea is, so far, my favorite SQ w/ electronics. I have both the Kronos and Arditti, and they are somewhat different. I tend to prefer Kronos' grittier in-your-face version (though the recording is plush as can be, smoothing it out). The orchestral pieces again are pretty trippy.
The other Ondine disc with solo cello, solo voice, solo flute, and solo percussion, all with electronics...
that I sold as soon as I got it: it did nothing for me. The one Ondine disc is all the Saariaho I'll ever need.
Quote from: Sean on July 02, 2009, 10:48:40 AMI thought overscored for French music.
Do you mind if I find this statement humorous? ;D
Would you be willing to change the title of this thread to "The Spectral Thread?" If not, then I will feel compelled to start one. The "French Avant" thread I started got derailed, and I was going to start an "Electro-Acoustic" thread... but you can see that this entire topic is many sided... what can be done???
Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2009, 12:38:18 PM
I have Saariaho's ...a la fumee/du cristal... and Nymphea on Ondine.
Nymphea is, so far, my favorite SQ w/ electronics. I have both the Kronos and Arditti, and they are somewhat different. I tend to prefer Kronos' grittier in-your-face version (though the recording is plush as can be, smoothing it out). The orchestral pieces again are pretty trippy.
The other Ondine disc with solo cello, solo voice, solo flute, and solo percussion, all with electronics... that I sold as soon as I got it: it did nothing for me. The one Ondine disc is all the Saariaho I'll ever need.
Do you mind if I find this statement humorous? ;D
I have to say, I think a la Fumee is a really attractive piece. There's one moment (pretty sure it's in that piece) where drums and harp come in, and it's pure magic.
I think it's easier to enjoy how a Saariaho piece feels, rather than its content- for example, Maa. The conception is brilliant- I can't think of another piece of music that starts out titled "Journey", and is some sort of recording of a jogger going through varies type of terrain. Also, L'Amour de Loin, NoaNoa, Verblundengen, etc. are some of my favorites, but generally, the music still applies to that rule- sensuous, imaginative, but harder to enjoy each note by itself (or maybe I haven't tried hard enough).
Not sure how to change the thread title...
By Saariaho I know Du crystal...a la fumee (alto flute, cello and orchestra) and the unaccompanied choral Nuits adieux and Over the sea. I persevere but am very sceptical about it all.
Cool... so who do we have?
Does Scelsi get "Father of the Year" award, or did Grisey, Dufourt, and Murail have no knowledge of Scelsi until the late '80s?
Is Grisey's "Acoustic Spaces" "thee" spectral score? I recall a piece on Kronos' "Short Stories" by John Oswald called Spectres.
What about Radulescu and Dumitrescu?
G.F. Haas?
Radulescu is generally considered one of the founders of the spectralist school, particularly in his works for "sound icons."
Haas has certainly proclaimed his closeness to the school in his writings (and works like in vain show this closeness), but I'm not sure if he regards himself as spectralist himself.
I would be surprised if the spectralists had heard mature Scelsi--it was all but unplayed until the 1980s, no?
Julian Anderson has called Per Norgard's 1968 work Voyage into the Golden Screen the first proper example of spectral composition, but Norgard quickly moved on to other concerns. Radulescu came not much later, but he was always a lone wolf. The community that grew up around the spectralist aesthetic was mainly involved with the music of Grisey, Levinas, Murail and Dufourt.
Quote from: CRCulver on July 05, 2009, 02:11:49 PM
Julian Anderson has called Per Norgard's 1968 work Voyage into the Golden Screen the first proper example of spectral composition
Hmmm.... that's kind of a weird idea. Infinity series is similar in conception, though...
I've also heard that Mayuzumi's Nirvana Symphony is the "first spectral work," which sounds more accurate to me given that it's supposed to be a study on bell sonorities. Still, though, given the fact that none of these two are really "spectral composers", it doesn't really feel right hearing this. It's almost like hearing that "Satie was the first minimalist"...
Quote from: Greg on July 05, 2009, 08:25:23 PM
Hmmm.... that's kind of a weird idea. Infinity series is similar in conception, though...
Anderson is refering to the first movement, where the musical material is two overtone series with fundamentals a quarter tone apart and the beats that arise between them, not to the second movement which is based on the infinity series.
a plea for enlightenment
Can someone please inform me briefly just what is "spectralism" in music? I've heard this term bandied about for years, but really don't know what it refers to.
Quote from: Spitvalve on July 06, 2009, 04:28:44 AM
a plea for enlightenment
Can someone please inform me briefly just what is "spectralism" in music? I've heard this term bandied about for years, but really don't know what it refers to.
This will explain it better than I can:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectralism
Here's a collection of articles about spectral music for anyone that's interested:
http://www.mediafire.com/?39nexm6dvqo
(it's some awesome reading)
Quote from: Sean on July 04, 2009, 12:35:24 PM
Not sure how to change the thread title...
Go to your inaugural message; click the Edit link in the upper right corner.
Insert the cursor in the Subject text field, and edit at will.
Mash the Save button.
Quote from: Greg on July 06, 2009, 05:16:50 AM
This will explain it better than I can:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectralism
From the Wiki link:
Murail has described Spectral music as an attitude towards composition rather than a set of techniques, an aesthetic rather than style. This attitude being that "music is ultimately sound evolving in time" Wow, "sound evolving in time." So in short - spectralism is exactly like every other form of music in the history of the world :)
Quote from: Spitvalve on July 06, 2009, 07:58:55 AM
From the Wiki link: Murail has described Spectral music as an attitude towards composition rather than a set of techniques, an aesthetic rather than style. This attitude being that "music is ultimately sound evolving in time"
Wow, "sound evolving in time." So in short - spectralism is exactly like every other form of music in the history of the world :)
(* pounds the countertop *)
Okay Karl...
Quote from: Spitvalve on July 06, 2009, 07:58:55 AM
Wow, "sound evolving in time." So in short - spectralism is exactly like every other form of music in the history of the world :)
haha, not exactly ;D
It's probably more easily understood simply by hearing the style, in the way that it's only possible to understand what makes "impressionism" by listening to the music.
A few things that are uniquely spectral, which I have learned from reading those articles:
1- transcribing the sound in time of bells, gongs, water, etc., for traditional instruments- mainly, winds, strings, and brass, because they can use microtones (and typically, quarter-tones are as far as they go)
2- diagram sketches of the structure of a piece- well, i've only seen one, though I would be surprised if no one else did this. That piece is Saariaho's, and I'm pretty sure it's Verblundengen. It looks like a flame that fades out at the end, and you can hear it in the music.
3- the overall look of spectral music scores is extremely recognizable.
For example:
Murail's Desintegrations (an awesome piece, btw 8))
Quote from: Greg on July 03, 2009, 08:02:46 PM
I think it's easier to enjoy how a Saariaho piece feels, rather than its content- for example, Maa.
Seems kinda redundant to me.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on July 06, 2009, 06:04:50 PM
Seems kinda redundant to me.
Well, to put it more simply, it's easy to understand the emotion she's getting at- the whole mystic, sensuous sound, but it can be more challenging (though likely more rewarding) if you focus on stuff like the individual lines (if you can call them "lines", given this type of music).
Bumping up this thread (and merging with a previous one) since tonight I'm hearing Grisey's Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil (1997-98), his final work, with Alan Gilbert and the New York Philharmonic. The soprano is Barbara Hannigan, who was terrific in last spring's production of Le Grand Macabre.
I still can't quite believe that the New York Philharmonic is finally getting into spectral music--long overdue.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on November 19, 2010, 07:58:28 AM
I still can't quite believe that the New York Philharmonic is finally getting into spectral music--long overdue.
They have been doing post-spectral music for quite some time, what, with the likes of Magnus Lindberg as the composer in residence. However, you are right in that they haven't done "true" spectral music such as Grisey before.
Since about a week ago I spent some time listening (and relistening) to Grisey's Le noir de l'étoile, Le temps et l'écume and Les chants de l'amour. Each one is quite rewarding in its own (different) way.
Le noir de l'étoile, for 6 percussionists located around the audience and live transmission of astronomical signals lasts a little under one hour. It is the meeting point between a dying star sending out its last signals, a giant radiotelescope picking them up, and six musicians being guided by them. It is a work essentially about rhythm and space. The score is organized according to the rotational speeds and timbres derived from the radio transmissions of a selection taken from the catalogue of known pulsars, distant stellar objects that are known for their very regular bursts of energy. The use of the percussion is quite organic and rather than being savage and wild it allows the ear to follow the ebb and flow of time (think Ionisation rather than Psappha), a recurrent concern of Grisey. On two occasions during the work, the sounds of the stars play unaccompanied through the set of loudspeakers, allowing the audience to experience the cosmic pulses exactly as received.
Le temps et l'écume, for 4 percussionists, 2 digital synthesizers and chamber orchestra lasts around 20 minutes. The piece bridges the "music of whales, that of humankind and that of insects". This is another piece that was inspired by astronomy when an astrophysicist friend of Grisey's explained gravitational waves as the foam of space-time. The piece, like the simile used by his friend, is like an ocean, which when viewed from a distance is perceived as a continuity; when we get closer, we realize that it is made of waves; and then, ever closer, we see that the summits of those waves have absolute discontinuities, giving rise precisely to the foam. The passage of time is fluid in this piece. At one end of the scale, we have the extended quiet opening; at the other lie pulsations, ruptures and durations, resulting in the "foam". The requisite "acoustic synthesis" so typical of spectral music can also be heard throughout.
Les chants de l'amour, for 12 voices and magnetic tape is a work in 5 sections and lasts around 35 minutes. The material consists of phonetic material derived from words related to love, intoned by the singers in various forms and against the tape, which contains synthesized vocal sounds and speech sounds processed and filtered by computer. Sonically, the obvious reference is Stockhausen's Stimmung, although the similarities are only superficial and careful listening dismisses the comparison. Grisey was inspired by the strict structures found in Ockeghem and Dufay, the polyphonies of the pygmies of the forest of Lituri and, of course, the spectral and formant analysis of human speech--in fact, the form of the whole piece and the formant material are derived from the phrase I love you. The interplay of the real voices and the synthesized voices is very well done and certainly a very engaging aspect of the work.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/319M7Q31VJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
[asin]B0019IT68Y[/asin]
Quote from: petrarch on January 09, 2011, 05:07:15 AM
Since about a week ago I spent some time listening (and relistening) to Grisey's Le noir de l'étoile, Le temps et l'écume and Les chants de l'amour. Each one is quite rewarding in its own (different) way.
Le noir de l'étoile, for 6 percussionists located around the audience and live transmission of astronomical signals lasts a little under one hour. It is the meeting point between a dying star sending out its last signals, a giant radiotelescope picking them up, and six musicians being guided by them. It is a work essentially about rhythm and space. The score is organized according to the rotational speeds and timbres derived from the radio transmissions of a selection taken from the catalogue of known pulsars, distant stellar objects that are known for their very regular bursts of energy. The use of the percussion is quite organic and rather than being savage and wild it allows the ear to follow the ebb and flow of time (think Ionisation rather than Psappha), a recurrent concern of Grisey. On two occasions during the work, the sounds of the stars play unaccompanied through the set of loudspeakers, allowing the audience to experience the cosmic pulses exactly as received.
Le temps et l'écume, for 4 percussionists, 2 digital synthesizers and chamber orchestra lasts around 20 minutes. The piece bridges the "music of whales, that of humankind and that of insects". This is another piece that was inspired by astronomy when an astrophysicist friend of Grisey's explained gravitational waves as the foam of space-time. The piece, like the simile used by his friend, is like an ocean, which when viewed from a distance is perceived as a continuity; when we get closer, we realize that it is made of waves; and then, ever closer, we see that the summits of those waves have absolute discontinuities, giving rise precisely to the foam. The passage of time is fluid in this piece. At one end of the scale, we have the extended quiet opening; at the other lie pulsations, ruptures and durations, resulting in the "foam". The requisite "acoustic synthesis" so typical of spectral music can also be heard throughout.
Les chants de l'amour, for 12 voices and magnetic tape is a work in 5 sections and lasts around 35 minutes. The material consists of phonetic material derived from words related to love, intoned by the singers in various forms and against the tape, which contains synthesized vocal sounds and speech sounds processed and filtered by computer. Sonically, the obvious reference is Stockhausen's Stimmung, although the similarities are only superficial and careful listening dismisses the comparison. Grisey was inspired by the strict structures found in Ockeghem and Dufay, the polyphonies of the pygmies of the forest of Lituri and, of course, the spectral and formant analysis of human speech--in fact, the form of the whole piece and the formant material are derived from the phrase I love you. The interplay of the real voices and the synthesized voices is very well done and certainly a very engaging aspect of the work.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/319M7Q31VJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
[asin]B0019IT68Y[/asin]
How would you rate
Le noir de l'etoile with other Percussions de Strasbourg 'hits'?:
Grisey-
Le noir de l'etoileXenakis-
Persephassa,
PleaidesDufourt-
ErewhonMache-
Khoom,
Serpent...I mean, does this Grisey piece hold one's attention? I hear the Dufourt piece (also @1hr.) described as 'tepid', though it boasts how many different percussion instruments? I'm basically looking for long, 4-6 percussionist type music, and the ones above seem to have risen to the top. Are there others? What are the instruments used in the Grisey?
Quote from: snyprrr on January 09, 2011, 08:37:00 AM
How would you rate Le noir de l'etoile with other Percussions de Strasbourg 'hits'?:
Grisey- Le noir de l'etoile
Xenakis- Persephassa, Pleaides
Dufourt- Erewhon
Mache- Khoom, Serpent...
I mean, does this Grisey piece hold one's attention? I hear the Dufourt piece (also @1hr.) described as 'tepid', though it boasts how many different percussion instruments? I'm basically looking for long, 4-6 percussionist type music, and the ones above seem to have risen to the top. Are there others? What are the instruments used in the Grisey?
It absolutely holds your attention. The Grisey sounds very much like
Persephassa, although it
feels more natural and less "artificial" and "forced". This is most likely because of the careful tuning of the percussion instruments and the precise spectral, timing and spatial organization the work is structured with, so it sounds more like an unfolding natural phenomenon (hence my reference to
Ionisation as opposed to
Psappha--though I really meant
Persephassa). The liner notes do not mention specific instruments, but in passing it talks about 120 percussion instruments of skin, wood and metal.
Quote from: petrarch on January 09, 2011, 05:07:15 AM
Since about a week ago I spent some time listening (and relistening) to Grisey's Le noir de l'étoile, Le temps et l'écume and Les chants de l'amour. Each one is quite rewarding in its own (different) way.
Le noir de l'étoile, for 6 percussionists located around the audience and live transmission of astronomical signals lasts a little under one hour. It is the meeting point between a dying star sending out its last signals, a giant radiotelescope picking them up, and six musicians being guided by them. It is a work essentially about rhythm and space. The score is organized according to the rotational speeds and timbres derived from the radio transmissions of a selection taken from the catalogue of known pulsars, distant stellar objects that are known for their very regular bursts of energy. The use of the percussion is quite organic and rather than being savage and wild it allows the ear to follow the ebb and flow of time (think Ionisation rather than Psappha), a recurrent concern of Grisey. On two occasions during the work, the sounds of the stars play unaccompanied through the set of loudspeakers, allowing the audience to experience the cosmic pulses exactly as received.
Thanks,
petrarch, for the detailed comments on those three Grisey pieces. Just a few weeks ago I heard a live performance of
Le noir de l'étoile (
here (http://www.musicweb-international.com/sandh/2011/Jan-Jun11/grisey2501.htm)), and on March 4, will hear it again, incredibly just a few weeks later, by
Les Percussions de Strasbourg (http://new.lincolncenter.org/live/index.php/ts-2011-les-percussions-de-strasbourg).
I must say, a fascinating experience, hearing this work (as virtually all my Grisey experiences have been). After the glow of these performances has ebbed, I will certainly get that recording, as well as the other two works you mentioned.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on February 11, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Thanks, petrarch, for the detailed comments on those three Grisey pieces. Just a few weeks ago I heard a live performance of Le noir de l'étoile (here (http://www.musicweb-international.com/sandh/2011/Jan-Jun11/grisey2501.htm)), and on March 4, will hear it again, incredibly just a few weeks later, by Les Percussions de Strasbourg (http://new.lincolncenter.org/live/index.php/ts-2011-les-percussions-de-strasbourg).
I must say, a fascinating experience, hearing this work (as virtually all my Grisey experiences have been). After the glow of these performances has ebbed, I will certainly get that recording, as well as the other two works you mentioned.
--Bruce
Like I said in the other Thread,... I'd get that percussion cd if I thought my boom-box would play it.
btw- Just ordered
Les Espaces..., had to take the plunge, no? And yes, I got the 'right' one. Can't wait!! 8)
So, I've got my 'One'
Murail disc: the Desert Island one on "Composers of our Time' series, with
Serendib and the other two pieces. I know you like
Gondwana, but right now, I'm totally satisfied with this.
I've got what I consider the 'crucial'
Dufourt,... anyhow...
I just ordered the Seminal
Grisey.
I'm holding off on
Aperghis for the moment,... I really want to get that 'Musique d'Chambre' cd on ZigZag Territories, but it's absolutely not available anywhere (can you help here?),... and that Kairos disc looks good, and the 2cd set 'Simulacres' seems like the One(s) to get. Not going for
Recitations.
F-B
Mache is the last one on the list, and his discography is only available in your dreams. There's yet another Percussion de Strassbourg cd featuring all his percussion music, along with a Naxos release of piano music (with Ohana music), and then some Accord/Adda type cds.
I think that's it, isn't it? Does this bring me up to speed? I left
Manoury off because his discography is even more pathetic (though,
Pluton would be the piece here, no?).
Also, Jarrell, Cohen, Obst, Lenot, Hurel, Dalbavie, and the 'rest',... well, they'll have to wait.
What do you say?
That Grisey CD - even in the SACD format - should play on your system just fine. You just won't hear all the extra benefits of the other format. And I think Les Espaces is probably his masterpiece - although there are other contenders - enjoy!
Do check out some Hurel and Dalbavie (the only ones on your list I've heard a bit of). Dalbavie has gotten a good bit of time on concerts here in the last few years, e.g., the Cleveland Orchestra brought his Concertate il suono (2000) here in 2004, and in 2008 the International Contemporary Ensemble (ICE) did a big concert of his music including Palimpseste (2002), Diadèmes (1986) and Fantaisies (2008, world premiere) - all fascinating.
--Bruce
Quote from: snyprrr on June 17, 2011, 09:09:02 AM
btw- Just ordered Les Espaces..., had to take the plunge, no? And yes, I got the 'right' one. Can't wait!! 8)
Which one is the right one? The Kairos or the Accord? You did the right thing. My first exposure to Grisey was the Accord with
Prologue (version with resonators),
Jour Contre Jour and a few other essentials (at the time there was no recording with the whole of
Les Espaces Acoustiques), and I still remember fondly how
Prologue, which happened to be the opening track, was immediately captivating. It is as they say in the literature, like a manual, a guide, the WTC of spectral music.
Quote from: snyprrr on June 17, 2011, 09:09:02 AM
So, I've got my 'One' Murail disc: the Desert Island one on "Composers of our Time' series, with Serendib and the other two pieces. I know you like Gondwana, but right now, I'm totally satisfied with this.
That one is also my favorite Murail disc.
Quote from: snyprrr on June 17, 2011, 09:09:02 AM
Also, Jarrell, Cohen, Obst, Lenot, Hurel, Dalbavie, and the 'rest',... well, they'll have to wait.
What do you say?
Dalbavie would be my next choice.
Quote from: petrarch on June 17, 2011, 03:53:07 PM
Which one is the right one? The Kairos or the Accord? You did the right thing. My first exposure to Grisey was the Accord with Prologue (version with resonators), Jour Contre Jour and a few other essentials (at the time there was no recording with the whole of Les Espaces Acoustiques), and I still remember fondly how Prologue, which happened to be the opening track, was immediately captivating. It is as they say in the literature, like a manual, a guide, the WTC of spectral music.
That one is also my favorite Murail disc.
Dalbavie would be my next choice.
I got Les Espaces (Musicdisc France) yesterday, and I haven't opened it yet, which is definitely not my style. I see two intimidating cds worth of listening, and,... I'm scurred :'(. First off, I will need to set aside 2hrs.,... and I don't see how I can listen to this until The Dead of Night, meaning after 2am (this is NOT getting play during the daytime, haha).
The fear I'll have a car wreck before I open it is always threatening, so,...
Seriously, I am going to approach this piece with the utmost respect. I've only heard snippets, but, looking at the timings of these pieces,... an 18min. viola solo?? :o That's going to take some concentration on my part. Looks like I might have to hit the gym before I listen, huh? Whew! ???
Anyhow, hoping I will have some 'Delicious Time' later to do this. Can't wait!! ;) 8)
I listened to the Accord set last night — it's only a little less than 1.5 hours long. Certainly as manageable as a Mahler symphony.
Quote from: Coco on June 23, 2011, 09:23:12 AM
I listened to the Accord set last night — it's only a little less than 1.5 hours long. Certainly as manageable as a Mahler symphony.
I'm into the second piece now...
I wasn't quite sure about that viola intro, until the end, when the sound actually started to transform. I heard some Donatoni in the endlessly repeating 'variations', and heard Xenakis in the glisses. Ha, 8mins. into
Periodes and it sounds just like
Anaktoria.
No, I like this a lot. Very interesting. But it's not totally 'smooth' as one might expect, but 'stuff' actually 'happens',... like disruptions? And EVERYTHING? is centered on 'E'? I don't have the guitar handy, I'll have to check.
Partiels just started. Cool basses...
Quote from: snyprrr on June 23, 2011, 07:59:26 PM
I'm into the second piece now...
I wasn't quite sure about that viola intro, until the end, when the sound actually started to transform. I heard some Donatoni in the endlessly repeating 'variations', and heard Xenakis in the glisses. Ha, 8mins. into Periodes and it sounds just like Anaktoria.
No, I like this a lot. Very interesting. But it's not totally 'smooth' as one might expect, but 'stuff' actually 'happens',... like disruptions? And EVERYTHING? is centered on 'E'? I don't have the guitar handy, I'll have to check.
Partiels just started. Cool basses...
ok, just finished First Listen. Disc2 continues on from Disc1, each piece adding forces. By the time of
Epilogue, though, I had read through the notes and was utterly confused. I didn't hear the 'open system' being 'destroyed', or 'disintegrated', or whatever,... I don't know, everything makes interesting sense musically, but Grisey's notes are going to take me some time here:
'...instrumental application of frequency modulation for calculating the inharmonic spectra.'
No, I won't find another example. The whole thing is pretty dense. But then, the 'sense of discovery' permeates everything about this project, no? Yes, this was a refreshing ear cleansing,... this is beautiful Water Music, and Color Music. And yes, everything's in 'E'.
In E, haha. 8)
I'll be attempting a Second Listen this weekend.
Same. I'll be giving it a listen after work today.
Hey, let's make Les espaces the next Listening Week choice! :D
Quote from: petrarch on January 10, 2011, 04:46:16 AM
It absolutely holds your attention. The Grisey sounds very much like Persephassa, although it feels more natural and less "artificial" and "forced". This is most likely because of the careful tuning of the percussion instruments and the precise spectral, timing and spatial organization the work is structured with, so it sounds more like an unfolding natural phenomenon (hence my reference to Ionisation as opposed to Psappha--though I really meant Persephassa). The liner notes do not mention specific instruments, but in passing it talks about 120 percussion instruments of skin, wood and metal.
Been listening to
l'etoile for about a week.
First off, ANY cd that starts off with 5mins. of French speaking is an instant disappointment, haha. But, as I adjust...
I certainly didn't really get it the first time, but now I'm really starting to get into it. It DOES sound a whooole lot like Xenakis, even down to the rat-a-tat-tat which shows up in X's last work
O-Mega. Much else sounds like
Pleiades and
Persephassa. It's the same arena, but Grisey is a little gentler (ha!), or whatnot. You REALLY do hear the rhythm of the cosmos here. Definitely a great companion to enakis and Dufourt.
Also, I've been plowing through
Les espaces, and, I'm really glad there is sooo much of it. It's been keeping me busy.
I'm at kind of a loss as to where to go from here, though. Aperghis and Mache are next on this list, but their discographies are...well...
I've stumbled upon Grisey by chance and I'm almost speechless! So far I've listened to Les espaces acoustiques and Vortex temporum and now I'm fighting the urge to buy up every available CD I can find.. (thankfully, the rent is due).
I usually have an on / off relationship with the more adventurous side of contemporary classical music (and it's mostly off when it comes to the Cult of IRCAM) but this stuff is like an amalgam of timbres and patterns and twists & turns that I instantly feel and enjoy.
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 13, 2012, 05:53:46 AM
I've stumbled upon Grisey by chance and I'm almost speechless! So far I've listened to Les espaces acoustiques and Vortex temporum and now I'm fighting the urge to buy up every available CD I can find.. (thankfully, the rent is due).
I usually have an on / off relationship with the more adventurous side of contemporary classical music (and it's mostly off when it comes to the Cult of IRCAM) but this stuff is like an amalgam of timbres and patterns and twists & turns that I instantly feel and enjoy.
Grisey has that effect indeed! From the spectralists, I prefer Grisey overall, but I think I like one or two works by Murail better. You already have a good start on Grisey, but check
Jour Contre Jour and
Anubis-Nout (version for saxophone)--those come in an Accord CD that opens with a brilliant version of
Prologue (or perhaps I am more attached to that particular recording because it was the first proper and systematically spectral work that I heard).
If you want to dip into Murail, definitely check
Les courants de l'espace and
Treize couleurs du soleil couchant. These are much less visceral than Grisey and a lot more impressionistic, but excellent nonetheless.
EDIT: Actually, the first proper and systematically spectral work I heard was Jonathan Harvey's
Mortuos Plango, Vivos Voco, truly a masterpiece of the genre. But Grisey's
Prologue was the first one I heard with
acoustic instruments.
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 13, 2012, 05:53:46 AM
I've stumbled upon Grisey by chance and I'm almost speechless! So far I've listened to Les espaces acoustiques and Vortex temporum and now I'm fighting the urge to buy up every available CD I can find.. (thankfully, the rent is due).
I usually have an on / off relationship with the more adventurous side of contemporary classical music (and it's mostly off when it comes to the Cult of IRCAM) but this stuff is like an amalgam of timbres and patterns and twists & turns that I instantly feel and enjoy.
I'd try the massive percussion piece
Erewhon by Dufourt. Maybe go for that before you go for Grisey's similar piece.
Glad you've discovered Grisey. It sure is good stuff, and it's nice to hear someone's first reactions (same as mine).
Read the reviews, though. Maybe not everything by Grisey will please you. Hit the top works of the different Composers in this realm, they all have something different to say. Try Radulescu and Dumitrescu,... even more spectral than Grisey.
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 13, 2012, 05:53:46 AM
I've stumbled upon Grisey by chance and I'm almost speechless! So far I've listened to Les espaces acoustiques and Vortex temporum and now I'm fighting the urge to buy up every available CD I can find.. (thankfully, the rent is due).
I usually have an on / off relationship with the more adventurous side of contemporary classical music (and it's mostly off when it comes to the Cult of IRCAM) but this stuff is like an amalgam of timbres and patterns and twists & turns that I instantly feel and enjoy.
"Almost speechless" is exactly how I have felt after hearing Grisey - probably most recently when Alan Gilbert and the New York Philharmonic did his last work,
Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil, for soprano and fifteen instruments (1997–98). Was so knocked out that I returned for the second performance the next night, knowing I might not hear it again live for a very long time. But
Les espaces is probably his "masterpiece among masterpieces."
And just heard
Vortex temporum recently by the New York New Music Ensemble, whose pianist is the unflappable Stephen Gosling (who seems to be able to play anything) - what a great piece.
Nice comments by snyprrr, and thanks, petrarch, for those other suggestions - both from Grisey and Murail, whom I also love. Next spring, Pierre-Laurent Aimard (with David Robertson and the New York Philharmonic) is doing Murail's new piano concerto here - the same one Johan (J. Z. Herrenberg) is hearing tomorrow in Amsterdam.
--Bruce
Quote from: snyprrr on September 13, 2012, 06:09:04 AM
I'd try the massive percussion piece Erewhon by Dufourt.
Speaking of Dufourt, I really have to give
Erewhon a listen. I tried his works based on Tiepolo's paintings on Africa and Asia a while back and they did nothing to me. Are you familiar with them?
Quote from: petrarch on September 13, 2012, 07:14:31 AM
Speaking of Dufourt, I really have to give Erewhon a listen. I tried his works based on Tiepolo's paintings on Africa and Asia a while back and they did nothing to me. Are you familiar with them?
No, but 'scarecrow''s Amazon review kept me away. I have been desperately trying to get a copy of the Accord disc of
Saturn and
Surgir. I would recommend the Timpani disc with
Surgir and the viola concerto. btw- yes, by all means give
Erewhon a spin.
Quote from: Brewski on September 13, 2012, 06:54:41 AM
"Almost speechless" is exactly how I have felt after hearing Grisey - probably most recently when Alan Gilbert and the New York Philharmonic did his last work, Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil, for soprano and fifteen instruments (1997–98). Was so knocked out that I returned for the second performance the next night, knowing I might not hear it again live for a very long time.
The Kairos recording isn't the last word on this work, but it's a must-have for me. I wasn't big on what I'd heard of Grisey before then, but the world premiere under George Benjamin was one of the most revelatory things I've ever heard--the best description I've come up with for the work and its stature is to call it a spectralist
Das Lied von der Erde.
Grisey's output was not particularly large, so most of his mature work has appeared on disc now: as well as the other recommendations I'd suggest
Le temps et l'Ecume (found on a Kairos disc with
Les chants d'amour) and
L'Icone paradoxale, on a hard-to-find and oddly programmed Hanssler Classic disc.
Quote from: edward on September 13, 2012, 10:09:27 AM
The Kairos recording isn't the last word on this work, but it's a must-have for me. I wasn't big on what I'd heard of Grisey before then, but the world premiere under George Benjamin was one of the most revelatory things I've ever heard--the best description I've come up with for the work and its stature is to call it a spectralist Das Lied von der Erde.
Still haven't heard it! :-[ (I got the recording shortly after the concerts, but didn't want to hear another version for awhile...but enough time has passed, so I should really give it a spin.)
But more importantly, "...a spectralist
Das Lied von der Erde" - that is positively gorgeous,
edward, and right on target.
--Bruce
(thanks for the suggestions, everyone.. I've calmed down a little bit but now I'm gonna crank up the Vortex again.. oh, the idea of hearing this stuff live!)
I thought I'd posted this link before, but apparently not--a highly interesting interview with Grisey from a couple of years before his death:
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/davidbundler/grisey.html
To me his comments on Beethoven and Feldman are particularly revealing: so much of the psychological effectiveness of his late works comes from the characteristics he identifies in those two composers.
I just listened to the first few parts of two pieces: Acoustic Spaces and Four Songs. I'm really loving this music so far. BTW, How is his name pronounced?
QuoteSpectralism is not a system.
It's about texture, not harmony or melody.
Quote from: milk on April 29, 2014, 10:06:47 PM
I just listened to the first few parts of two pieces: Acoustic Spaces and Four Songs. I'm really loving this music so far. BTW, How is his name pronounced?
[ɡʁizɛ]
I need to listen to more
Grisay, too. I've heard those two before, and recall liking them.
I see he didn't mention
Scelsi - I was under the impression that he was rather influential to the Spectralists, too..
Quote from: North Star on April 30, 2014, 04:45:43 AM
[ɡʁizɛ]
I need to listen to more Grisay, too. I've heard those two before, and recall liking them.
I see he didn't mention Scelsi - I was under the impression that he was rather influential to the Spectralists, too..
The spectralist movement was well-established before Scelsi was widely known, so one might regard it more as a matter of convergent evolution. Post-spectralists like Georg Friedrich Haas (I've not actually seen the term used, but it seems a logical one) might regard Scelsi as more directly important, though.
Quote from: edward on April 30, 2014, 05:37:06 AM
The spectralist movement was well-established before Scelsi was widely known, so one might regard it more as a matter of convergent evolution.
Actually no, Tristan Murail met Scelsi and discovered his music when he was at the Villa Médicis in Rome at the beginning of the 70's, and Grisey knew his music as well. Scelsi's music was a direct influence to spectral music, and was one of its sources.
(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/22/25/0782124122522_600.jpg)
I quite enjoyed this today. After being inspired recently by Feldman and Cage and Riley I've been having a little trouble find more musical "wow" moments. But I quite like Grisey. I also want to listen again to Acoustic Spaces. Those are the only two I have.
Quote from: milk on June 13, 2014, 03:50:03 AM
(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/22/25/0782124122522_600.jpg)
I quite enjoyed this today. After being inspired recently by Feldman and Cage and Riley I've been having a little trouble find more musical "wow" moments. But I quite like Grisey. I also want to listen again to Acoustic Spaces. Those are the only two I have.
I actually enjoyed this, too, which surprised me since I don't usually like songs. Hopefully I'm warming up to songs. It's nice to have more to listen to.
Quote from: EigenUser on June 13, 2014, 03:58:28 AM
I actually enjoyed this, too, which surprised me since I don't usually like songs. Hopefully I'm warming up to songs. It's nice to have more to listen to.
Sometimes I also have a hard time with songs. I really don't like opera-style singing, which is the reason I didn't like Stephen Scott's Paisajes Audibles. I'm open to solo voices depending on how they are done. But I like how Grisey treats voice as...as part of timbre? As sound? I don't know if I'm articulating this well. Anyway, I have to read through more of these posts but I am interested in what people really love in Grisey's output.
(http://rymimg.com/lk/f/l/7efecadde5a0c87f800c6a8ab70b1c9f/3290123.jpg)
I have an amateur transfer of this LP, which I'll put on symphonyshare - if anyone wants it directly they can PM me.
Partiels is played by Ensemble Ars Nove and Boris de Vinogradov, who created the music. The performance is taut, transparent and angular and you can hear all the interesting textures clearly, all the dissonances and microtones. It's a shame there's no more of Espaces Acoustiques by them on recording.
One recording of Les Espaces Acoustiques that didn't suit me was Asbury's - which seemed sweet and overblown. But this one by Vinogradov shows that Grisey really was a genius.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 07, 2014, 05:20:25 AM
(http://rymimg.com/lk/f/l/7efecadde5a0c87f800c6a8ab70b1c9f/3290123.jpg)
I have an amateur transfer of this LP, which I'll put on symphonyshare - if anyone wants it directly they can PM me.
Partiels is played by Ensemble Ars Nove and Boris de Vinogradov, who created the music. The performance is taut, transparent and angular and you can hear all the interesting textures clearly, all the dissonances and microtones. It's a shame there's no more of Espaces Acoustiques by them on recording.
One recording of Les Espaces Acoustiques that didn't suit me was Asbury's - which seemed sweet and overblown. But this one by Vinogradov shows that Grisey really was a genius.
I jave the knox/Asko Ensemble which I like but have nothing to compare to. Listening to and loving Xenakis recently I feel their music is comparable.
Quote from: milk on April 29, 2014, 10:06:47 PM
I just listened to the first few parts of two pieces: Acoustic Spaces and Four Songs. I'm really loving this music so far. BTW, How is his name pronounced?
Those are two of his best works: the former is one of the quintessentially spectral works (perhaps even Grisey's "artist statement") and the latter is his final piece, gazing into the beyond. (I find his choice of texts for
Quatre chants especially compelling.)
And everyone I know who performs his music says "Gri-SAY." After hearing a good bit of his output - not everything - I think he was one of the most influential composers of the late 20th century. Great that you have discovered him.
--Bruce
Quote from: milk on August 07, 2014, 06:24:51 AM
I jave the knox/Asko Ensemble which I like but have nothing to compare to. Listening to and loving Xenakis recently I feel their music is comparable.
Yes well you have the Espaces Acousiques I didn't enjoy so much, I'm afraid. Take this LP and see what you think. The EA recording I listen to the most is Cambreling's. You say GreeeZay, I think.
Nice interview here about composing with the universe, about plugging music into something bigger.
https://www.youtube.com/v/aTlCXvag0EE
Quote from: Mandryka on August 07, 2014, 11:20:40 AMNice interview here about composing with the universe, about plugging music into something bigger.
My French is very basic so I caught only bits but I love Grisey's connection with cosmology, have to look that up.
Quote from: Rinaldo on August 08, 2014, 01:20:11 AM
My French is very basic so I caught only bits but I love Grisey's connection with cosmology, have to look that up.
Well it's a pretty shallow journalistic interview so he doesn't say much more than that he wanted to plug into something bigger than music. The piece lasts over an hour,there was a light show to go with it and the drummers were broadcast through speakers which surrounded the audience. There are snippets on youtube. There was a CD which has disappeared, but you can hear it here
http://classical-music-online.net/en/production/41564
I like to hear it partly because I'm interested in GG's ideas about time, about how music can manage perceived time.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 08, 2014, 04:02:28 AM
There was a CD which has disappeared, but you can hear it here
Commercially available here : http://www.amazon.fr/Le-Noir-De-Letoile-Ensemble/dp/B000KF0O38/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1407512835&sr=8-1&keywords=grisey+etoile (http://www.amazon.fr/Le-Noir-De-Letoile-Ensemble/dp/B000KF0O38/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1407512835&sr=8-1&keywords=grisey+etoile)
Our friend 5against4 has an interesting post up containing a recording of one of Grisey's earliest works. Mégalithes, a memorial to the victims of the Biafran War, is written for 15 spatially distributed brass instruments.
http://5against4.com/2014/06/07/gerard-grisey-megalithes-uk-premiere/
As you'd expect, a work written when he was 23 doesn't sound much like Grisey... except for the times when it does.
I've been listening to Les Chants de l'Amour lately
https://www.youtube.com/v/Qp7CHBF-V8U
and aside from being overwhelmed by its brilliance (and humour!), I really dig the TRIS-TAN, TRIS-TAN! part. One could read that as a shout-out to Murail as well :P
Quote from: Rinaldo on August 21, 2014, 04:26:03 AM
I've been listening to Les Chants de l'Amour lately
https://www.youtube.com/v/Qp7CHBF-V8U
and aside from being overwhelmed by its brilliance (and humour!), I really dig the TRIS-TAN, TRIS-TAN! part. One could read that as a shout-out to Murail as well :P
It's frustrating that much of his work is not available for download purchase.
Figured I'd pop up a note that a lot of copies of the Accord recording of Les Espaces Acoustiques seem to have shown up on amazon marketplace:
[asin]B00004VMCL[/asin]
Having given it a couple of comparative listens against the Kairos recording, I think the Accord is greatly to be preferred (I even clearly prefer Gerard Caussé to Garth Knox in the Prologue, and I don't often prefer anyone to Knox in this sort of repertoire), and I've grown to like the work a lot more now. There's something very French in the way that Grisey builds up a rather elaborate construction (full of cross-references between the different sections), and then the four solo horns enter in the Epilogue--a moment that's pure Berlioz--and tear it all apart.
Now I just need to track down the Accord disc with Jour, Contre-Jour, a single disc of which is available for a mere $200 on marketplace and pretty much nowhere else.
Thanks much, edward! I don't have the Accord disc, and would like to, given how much I admire the piece - and now at this quite reasonable price.
--Bruce
I too like the Cambreling Espaces Acoustiques.
Re Jour contre jour, I don't think I've ever heard it, I'll try to correct that today. I came across what looks like a good paper about it here
http://whitechord.org/articles/grisey-jour.pdf
The Jour Contre-Jour from the Accord CD is on youtube.
Talking of alternative versions of major Grisey works, I found the following performance available as a Google Play mp3 (320 kb/s) download for $1.29:
Quatre Chants pour franchir le seuil
Barbara Hannigan, soprano
New York Philharmonic
Alan Gilbert
Recorded live, November 2011
https://play.google.com/store/music/album?id=Buv3zytjtemiz2vxehb3jpul3ju&tid=song-Tyi27jm3rjk5vbcakrkfua2w4ta
I'd much rather have lossless, and I don't much like Google, but Hannigan singing this work at this price? I'm in.
Edit: oh yes, this is a very good performance; I think it's going to largely supplant the Kairos in my affections (though they're different enough that I'd want to have both).
Quote from: edward on June 28, 2015, 11:44:50 AM
Talking of alternative versions of major Grisey works, I found the following performance available as a Google Play mp3 (320 kb/s) download for $1.29:
Quatre Chants pour franchir le seuil
Barbara Hannigan, soprano
New York Philharmonic
Alan Gilbert
Recorded live, November 2011
https://play.google.com/store/music/album?id=Buv3zytjtemiz2vxehb3jpul3ju&tid=song-Tyi27jm3rjk5vbcakrkfua2w4ta
I'd much rather have lossless, and I don't much like Google, but Hannigan singing this work at this price? I'm in.
Edit: oh yes, this is a very good performance; I think it's going to largely supplant the Kairos in my affections (though they're different enough that I'd want to have both).
While I agree that the Kairos recording isn't the best that it could be, one thing that makes me a bit reluctant to explore this piece in other performances is that Grisey specifically based his spectral technique on a sonogram of Catherine Dubosc's voice, so there is supposed to be a unity between singer and instrumental ensemble in the Kairos recording that wouldn't be possible with other singers.
Quote from: CRCulver on June 30, 2015, 01:45:54 AM
While I agree that the Kairos recording isn't the best that it could be, one thing that makes me a bit reluctant to explore this piece in other performances is that Grisey specifically based his spectral technique on a sonogram of Catherine Dubosc's voice, so there is supposed to be a unity between singer and instrumental ensemble in the Kairos recording that wouldn't be possible with other singers.
Can't they just sort of make a new tape to suit a new singer? Otherwise it's a bit like Wagner trying to tie in performances of Parsiful to Beyreuth.
Anyway I'd ne interested in hearing this 4 chants if it was a bit less oily and sentimental than the other one.
What's the seuil? I mean, is he a Buddhist? A Théosophist? A shaman?
Quote from: Mandryka on July 03, 2015, 11:52:17 AM
What's the seuil? I mean, is he a Buddhist? A Théosophist? A shaman?
Death. The title means
Four songs for crossing the threshold.
Quote from: edward on July 04, 2015, 04:45:35 PM
Death. The title means Four songs for crossing the threshold.
It's not a French expression I've heard before for death, francir le seuil. I wonder if it comes from any spiritual point of view, like "going to the other side" in English has connotations of The Ouija Board.
Sding the day with 'Les Espaces...', the correct one of course ::), but I'm just not feeling all that so much at the moment, in the middle of 'Modulations'. Again, they were all "discovering" stuff in the '70s, so, I'm not mad, haha, but I'm starting to hear the "dating". Maybe it was watching 'Logan's Run' that did it?
Anyhow, singularly I prefer the Murail disc with 'Disintegrations' and 'Serendib', and the third piece...
I listened to the recording of Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil last night for the first time in several years. I still think it is a fine work, but this Kairos recording is just godawful. It's like there was one only microphone used and it was pointed towards the audience. Strange that no other label has taken this up. Does Catherine Dubosc have sole recording rights in perpetuity? (The spectrogram on which the first movement's music is based was taken from her voice specifically.)
Quote from: CRCulver on September 16, 2016, 10:18:40 AM
I listened to the recording of Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil last night for the first time in several years. I still think it is a fine work, but this Kairos recording is just godawful. It's like there was one only microphone used and it was pointed towards the audience. Strange that no other label has taken this up. Does Catherine Dubosc have sole recording rights in perpetuity? (The spectrogram on which the first movement's music is based was taken from her voice specifically.)
Barbara Hannigan has performed the work often (and quite beautifully). One can hope that she takes it into the recording studio soon.
Finished 'Les Espaces...'.eling better about it...
It's still kind of a lumbering, fat catepillar(?) of a piece, somewhat turgid and constipated, though it has many cool sounds... I don't know, it's sounds like Xenakis on delaudid(?)!! But, I know what Grisey was going for, so, there's really nothing to complain about, you either listen or not. I don't know how many more listens it will get...
Just stated on the listening thread that Petra Hoffmann in this live recoreding of Quatre chants may be the best soprano I've heard in the work (unfortunately I'm less enthusiastic about the ensemble work):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOvNkmLsOE
I'd be interested to get the opinion of other listeners here.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on September 16, 2016, 04:08:48 PM
I must asked, have you heard Norgard's Voyage of the Golden Screen and Georg Haas' music?
Other music in the same musical area includes Tristan Murail and Hughes Dufourt.
:)
Interesting- that Norgard and Haas are two examples of what I don't like. (I do like other Norgard, but that one piece yanked me). That very close thing...tight band of tones... Feldman's the closest I can tolerate of that... Haas, I have his SQs and a viola piece, I've heard a couple of the famous=er pieces, but I hear that same Xenakis-on-drugs sound, I don't know how else to describe it: slow glisses moving up and down in a gray and "dreary" manner, with an intense atmosphere of a European Doom Flick. It's that "Infinity Scale" thing... I famously dislike most MicroTonal Music, it's just all sounds like an oxycodon trip to me...or like the "blues"...
??
Murail and Dufourt I have no problem with. They're French, they know color.
Oh boy, I get to get Xenakiboy into a lot more spectralism :)
Quote from: nathanb on September 16, 2016, 11:46:37 PM
Oh boy, I get to get Xenakiboy into a lot more spectralism :)
but I find "sprctRUMism" in Xenakis, maybe not "specTRALism"... There is a lot of the same concerns... IX's late piece 'Voile' for strings, has a very spectro-gramic sound to it.
I mean, 'Spectralism' per se, as Grisey sets it out, and a very limited lifespan, no? It's kind of like a manual phase-shifter, or graphic EQ...
anyhow... I can't focus right now, boss quit/work chaos- (me? party!!!)
Ok, this is a question for real Griseyians ;)
In less than one mounth I'll have the chance to listen to the below pieces, performed separately for this year's annual festival of contemporary music in Milan.
(Les) Espaces acoustiques (1974/85) - 14 October
Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil (1998) - 29 October
Jour, contre jour (1979) - 4 November
Charme (1969) - 12 November (afternoon concert)
Le Noir de l'Étoile (1989/90) 12 and 13 November
Stèle (1995) 13 November (afternoon concert)
Anubis et Nout (1990) 19 November
L'Icône paradoxale (1993/94) - 21 November
I have already planned to go for
(Les) Espaces acoustiques (1974/85) - 14 October
Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil (1998) - 29 October
If you have to pick no more than two other concerts, which ones would you choose? Thanks :)
Man, I need to move to Milan...
Charme, Stele and Anubis et Nout are all short (ie ten minutes or less) small-scale (solo) works. If you're limiting yourself to just two more then I'd go for the biggies. For me that would be the percussion work Le Noir de l'Étoile and a toss-up between Jour, contre jour and L'Icône paradoxale. Of those two I might actually go for the latter. which has more variety in writing and instrumentation, including vocal parts, than the moody former, as well as more chance of providing a performance tellingly different to the cds.
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 17, 2016, 11:30:27 PM
Man, I need to move to Milan...
Simon, that bonanza is just for a few weeks of the year ;). The rest of the concert season here is quite traditional...
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 17, 2016, 11:30:27 PM
Charme, Stele and Anubis et Nout are all short (ie ten minutes or less) small-scale (solo) works. If you're limiting yourself to just two more then I'd go for the biggies. For me that would be the percussion work Le Noir de l'Étoile and a toss-up between Jour, contre jour and L'Icône paradoxale. Of those two I might actually go for the latter. which has more variety in writing and instrumentation, including vocal parts, than the moody former, as well as more chance of providing a performance tellingly different to the cds.
I also was thinking at Le Noir de l'Étoile. And L'Icône paradoxale looks very intriguing, also because it will be paired with some Messiaen and Ravel. Thanks a lot! :)
Vortex Temporum (for six instruments) is listenable. I would have pruned it by every 3rd repeat of a phrase, though.
Quote from: GioCar on September 17, 2016, 10:06:08 PM
Ok, this is a question for real Griseyians ;)
In less than one mounth I'll have the chance to listen to the below pieces, performed separately for this year's annual festival of contemporary music in Milan.
(Les) Espaces acoustiques (1974/85) - 14 October
Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil (1998) - 29 October
Jour, contre jour (1979) - 4 November
Charme (1969) - 12 November (afternoon concert)
Le Noir de l'Étoile (1989/90) 12 and 13 November
Stèle (1995) 13 November (afternoon concert)
Anubis et Nout (1990) 19 November
L'Icône paradoxale (1993/94) - 21 November
I have already planned to go for
(Les) Espaces acoustiques (1974/85) - 14 October
Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil (1998) - 29 October
If you have to pick no more than two other concerts, which ones would you choose? Thanks :)
I think you should go to jour contre- jour and Anubis-nout. I don't know icone paradoxale, I'm not crazy about the percussion piece noir d'etoiles, though I imagine it would make an exciting concert.
Quote from: GioCar on September 18, 2016, 05:08:48 AM
I also was thinking at Le Noir de l'Étoile. And L'Icône paradoxale looks very intriguing, also because it will be paired with some Messiaen and Ravel. Thanks a lot! :)
Another vote for
Le noir, which I had the great fortune to hear twice in three months, live, by different ensembles (and probably never again). If you like percussion, it's a marvelous experience.
The others, alas, I don't know (other than the two "big ones" that you've already booked).
--Bruce
Bruce and Mandryka, thanks for your comments and recommendations. :)
Le Noir de l'Étoile will be performed by Les Percussions de Strasbourg, a great ensemble I do appreciate a lot. I already have their recording of the Grisey's piece but I've never heard them (or anybody else) playing it live, so I definitely won't miss that chance now.
If I hadn't promised Mrs GioCar I'd have limited myself to only 4 concerts... ::)
The Grisey Spoon
thank you, snyprrr
Quote from: snyprrr on April 22, 2017, 06:31:19 AM
The Grisey Spoon
thank you, snyprrr
Any particular reason it should be the [ɡʁizɛ] spoon?
Vortex Temporum makes a surprise appearance (http://festival.cz/en/program_detail/113789) at this year's Prague Spring festival, can't wait!
Quote from: North Star on April 22, 2017, 06:38:56 AM
Any particular reason it should be the [ɡʁizɛ] spoon?
ahh... I'm not sure it matters how his name is pronounced... but, I'm not sure if you know the slang: "greasy spoon" means low class diner... even washing their dishes, they still always have a "greasy spoon"...
so, instead of "Grisey's Diner"... oh well, latent attempt at humore fails on a drizzly day :(
Salzburg Festival: TIME WITH GRISEY (http://www.ricordi.com/en-US/News/2017/06/Grisey-Salzburg/)
"The 2017 edition of the Salzburger Festspiele pays tribute to French composer Gérard Grisey (1946-1998) with a 6-concert series entitled TIME WITH GRISEY, featuring performances of his most important pieces by musicians of international stature."
Quote from: Rinaldo on July 07, 2017, 07:28:31 AM
Salzburg Festival: TIME WITH GRISEY (http://www.ricordi.com/en-US/News/2017/06/Grisey-Salzburg/)
"The 2017 edition of the Salzburger Festspiele pays tribute to French composer Gérard Grisey (1946-1998) with a 6-concert series entitled TIME WITH GRISEY, featuring performances of his most important pieces by musicians of international stature."
Looks wonderful. Will you be going to them? At least Quatre Chants and Espaces Acoustiques, I hope.
The Grisey revelation for any beginner starts out as follows:
1. Eh, Partiels is pretty good!
2. OMG, PARTIELS IS A MASTERPIECE, THIS IS ONE OF THE CANON MASTERPIECES ALL CLASSICAL MUSIC!!
3. Huh what? Partiels is only one piece in a 2 hour cycle, it's only the 'hit' of Espaces Acoustiques :o
4. ESPACES ACOUSTIQUES IS THE GREATEST PIECE OF THE 20th CENTURY!!!!!
5. Huh what? Grisey wrote other works too!!!!!
6. Repeat for every other piece :D
Seriously though, you know it's true 8)
Quote from: Le Moderniste on November 16, 2017, 03:11:49 AM
The Grisey revelation for any beginner starts out as follows:
1. Eh, Partiels is pretty good!
2. OMG, PARTIELS IS A MASTERPIECE, THIS IS ONE OF THE CANON MASTERPIECES ALL CLASSICAL MUSIC!!
3. Huh what? Partiels is only one piece in a 2 hour cycle, it's only the 'hit' of Espaces Acoustiques :o
4. ESPACES ACOUSTIQUES IS THE GREATEST PIECE OF THE 20th CENTURY!!!!!
5. Huh what? Grisey wrote other works too!!!!!
6. Repeat for every other piece :D
Seriously though, you know it's true 8)
I can vouch for the accuracy of this.
So Partiels is an absolute masterpiece, one of the greatest things written last century.
But I think I'm an even bigger fan of the second half of the cycle:
Modulations
Transitories
Epilogue
It is.......is......is.......is:
(http://upliftconnect.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/ScienceandSpiritualityFeature.png)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ae/dd/0d/aedd0d09f0cc20f917eccdc473b4c457.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/fb/50/40/fb5040fd0400c957064b1b801a27a07a.gif)
Completely incomparable, even Stockhausen's Licht (which I'm a huuuuuuge fan of) doesn't quite reach what Espaces Acoustiques reaches 8)
When I'm in the mood, Grisey absolutely floors me.
Sort of like with Scelsi, it is really "music from the other side" isn't it? ;) (in a positive way)
Quote from: Le Moderniste on December 04, 2017, 12:15:57 AM
When I'm in the mood, Grisey absolutely floors me.
Sort of like with Scelsi, it is really "music from the other side" isn't it? ;) (in a positive way)
"When I'm in the mood" being the key for me here... I think what I need is "Son of Espaces Acoutiques"... who has written the HitParade version of EA? OK, maybe I'll take it to work today...
Quote from: Le Moderniste on November 16, 2017, 03:11:49 AM
The Grisey revelation for any beginner starts out as follows:
1. Eh, Partiels is pretty good!
2. OMG, PARTIELS IS A MASTERPIECE, THIS IS ONE OF THE CANON MASTERPIECES ALL CLASSICAL MUSIC!!
3. Huh what? Partiels is only one piece in a 2 hour cycle, it's only the 'hit' of Espaces Acoustiques :o
4. ESPACES ACOUSTIQUES IS THE GREATEST PIECE OF THE 20th CENTURY!!!!!
5. Huh what? Grisey wrote other works too!!!!!
6. Repeat for every other piece :D
Seriously though, you know it's true 8)
*chuckling*
Les espaces acoustiques is definitely one of the greatest of the 20th century (among too many contenders). And yes,
Partiels is fabulous -- but then, I adore all sections of the piece. Still hoping some ambitious orchestra will do the entire thing live in New York. Spectral scores are still challenging for most conventional orchestral musicians. (I've heard more of his music from new chamber music groups, like the International Contemporary Ensemble, for example.)
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on December 05, 2017, 07:57:09 AM
*chuckling*
Les espaces acoustiques is definitely one of the greatest of the 20th century (among too many contenders). And yes, Partiels is fabulous -- but then, I adore all sections of the piece. Still hoping some ambitious orchestra will do the entire thing live in New York. Spectral scores are still challenging for most conventional orchestral musicians. (I've heard more of his music from new chamber music groups, like the International Contemporary Ensemble, for example.)
--Bruce
Susanna Mälkki and the Helsinki Philharmonic did
Les espaces acoustiques in February. I wish I could have been there..
Quote from: North Star on December 05, 2017, 08:04:15 AM
Susanna Mälkki and the Helsinki Philharmonic did Les espaces acoustiques in February. I wish I could have been there..
I'm excited to learn of this and hope a radio broadcast recording makes it way to YT, but investigating it appears to be Pierre Andre Valade, rather than Malkki:
http://helsinginkaupunginorkesteri.fi/en/concerts/musica-nova-helsinki
Quote from: SimonNZ on December 05, 2017, 10:59:59 PM
I'm excited to learn of this and hope a radio broadcast recording makes it way to YT, but investigating it appears to be Pierre Andre Valade, rather than Malkki:
http://helsinginkaupunginorkesteri.fi/en/concerts/musica-nova-helsinki
Ah, faulty memory.
If I saw Les Espaces Acoustiques live, I would honestly walk out in tears by the time it ends (heck it started to happen at one point when I saw Le Sacre recently). Not that I am a person who sheds tears easily or often but it would be so overwhelming for me, considering how attached I am to it
:'( (Escapes..)
But in the context of my own home, playing it on the stereo as I do, it is very much a psychedelic work for me. The cycle is a spiritual experience, I come out of the epilogue after those incredible, otherworldly 90 minutes going "wow!".
The feeling that you have come out of the cycle/work a different person.
Man, it takes me somewhere amazing :-*
Quote from: Brewski on December 05, 2017, 07:57:09 AM
*chuckling*
Les espaces acoustiques is definitely one of the greatest of the 20th century
Damn right it is :D
Quote from: Brewski on December 05, 2017, 07:57:09 AM(among too many contenders).
Undeniably yes, which causes some internal conflict with my other idols :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: Brewski on December 05, 2017, 07:57:09 AM
Partiels is fabulous -- but then, I adore all sections of the piece.
The entire thing is perfect IMO, but I think Transitories may be my favorite individual part. ;)
Quote from: Brewski on December 05, 2017, 07:57:09 AMStill hoping some ambitious orchestra will do the entire thing live in New York. Spectral scores are still challenging for most conventional orchestral musicians. (I've heard more of his music from new chamber music groups, like the International Contemporary Ensemble, for example.)
--Bruce
I really, really hope so too. If you play it enough, you'll draw an audience/grow more awareness of Grisey.
LET IT BE!
Quote from: snyprrr on December 04, 2017, 06:46:27 AM
who has written the HitParade version of EA? OK, maybe I'll take it to work today...
This I guess, as it is kinda the "classic recording"
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51CGNcEdn7L._SY355_.jpg)
Quote from: North Star on December 05, 2017, 08:04:15 AM
Susanna Mälkki and the Helsinki Philharmonic did Les espaces acoustiques in February. I wish I could have been there..
I was there. It was Pierre-Andre Valade, not Mälkki. Valade conducts with an eerie precision. His approach would probably suck for Classical or Romantic-era music where rubato is appreciated in "interpretation", but in spectral repertoire where the timings are very precisely calculated, he made the work run like clockwork. Definitely one of the best concerts I've ever been to.
Barbara Hannigan. Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil. You know what to do.
Thank you for the heads-up. Listening now.
also:
La Passione review – Grisey's masterpiece endures (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/26/la-passione-review-grisey-barbara-hannigan)
Quote from: edward on March 28, 2020, 08:20:32 AM
Barbara Hannigan. Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil. You know what to do.
We certainly do. Thank you!
Quote from: SimonNZ on March 28, 2020, 02:52:20 PM
Thank you for the heads-up. Listening now.
also:
La Passione review – Grisey's masterpiece endures (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/26/la-passione-review-grisey-barbara-hannigan)
And many thanks for this, too. Warms my heart to see Grisey mentioned today.
--Bruce
I look forward to getting the new Hannigan recording. Still, is a pity that the world premiere recording with Catherine Dubosc was botched, since Grisey based on the first movement on a spectral model of Dubosc's voice specifically, so any other soprano taking on the world would be rather like, say, later singers performing those Berio works written for Cathy Berberian.
Botched in what way?
Quote from: SimonNZ on March 28, 2020, 04:02:35 PM
Botched in what way?
I am curious about this too.
I have one of Barbara Hannigan's recordings and was quite floored by her voice, singing and the works (different composer). Am learning more about her and am discovering how talented she is in many fields. Will check out more soon re Grisey, etc.
Best wishes,
PD
Quote from: Brewski on March 28, 2020, 03:11:35 PM
And many thanks for this, too. Warms my heart to see Grisey mentioned today.
A very big
+ 1. Warms my heart too.
Quote from: SimonNZ on March 28, 2020, 04:02:35 PM
Botched in what way?
The sound quality of that recording is rather poor by Kairos standards. Based on the credits, I would assume this is a radio recording made without too much care taken, which Kairos subsequently picked up for release.
Quote from: CRCulver on March 29, 2020, 06:26:13 AM
The sound quality of that recording is rather poor by Kairos standards. Based on the credits, I would assume this is a radio recording made without too much care taken, which Kairos subsequently picked up for release.
I would love the BBC to issue the recording they made of the world premiere under George Benjamin, which left an indelible impression on me.
Quote from: CRCulver on March 29, 2020, 06:26:13 AM
The sound quality of that recording is rather poor by Kairos standards. Based on the credits, I would assume this is a radio recording made without too much care taken, which Kairos subsequently picked up for release.
I played it yesterday and didn't notice anything like that. In fact I thought it might have had some advantage over the Hannigan in balance of voice and instruments and in the way individual instruments were picked up and highlighted.
What are resonators?
Are there just two options for the prologue of Espaces Acoustiques -- vanilla viola and viola with "resonators" whatever they may be? Or are there more options (live electronics is one suggestion I've read, but it may be an internet myth. And for all I know live electronics = resonators.)
http://brahms.ircam.fr/analyses/Prologue/
Quote from: Mandryka on December 09, 2020, 01:16:08 AM
What are resonators?
Are there just two options for the prologue of Espaces Acoustiques -- vanilla viola and viola with "resonators" whatever they may be? Or are there more options (live electronics is one suggestion I've read, but it may be an internet myth. And for all I know live electronics = resonators.)
Thanks. Now, is there a recording of the version with real time electronics?
Here's Cause with the resonators -- I wonder where this is from, whether it's commercially available. The recording he made with Cambrelling is shorter.
https://www.youtube.com/v/LFUomn9Fp_k&ab_channel=G%C3%A9rardCauss%C3%A9Viola
I have this one with live electronics:
https://www.discogs.com/Garth-Knox-Spectral-Viola/release/6564716
The clip you linked to is from here:
https://www.discogs.com/Gérard-Grisey-Talea-Prologue-Anubis-Nout-Jour-Contre-jour/release/6571798
(the timing on the cover is wrong, I just checked the CD and that track is 19:29)
Quote from: petrarch on December 09, 2020, 06:25:57 AM
I have this one with live electronics:
https://www.discogs.com/Garth-Knox-Spectral-Viola/release/6564716
The clip you linked to is from here:
https://www.discogs.com/Gérard-Grisey-Talea-Prologue-Anubis-Nout-Jour-Contre-jour/release/6571798
(the timing on the cover is wrong, I just checked the CD and that track is 19:29)
This disc desperately needs to be reissued: not only this outstanding
Prologue but also the only commercial recording available of
Jour, Contre-Jour.
I'd already asked on symphonyshare if anyone can upload it, without knowing that it had the electronic version of the prologue from Espaces Acoustiques. I know it's an important disc in the history of spectral music. I wasn't aware at all of the Ensemble Itinéraire recording.
Happy to rip both CDs if either of you are interested.
Quote from: edward on December 09, 2020, 06:31:26 AM
This disc desperately needs to be reissued: not only this outstanding Prologue but also the only commercial recording available of Jour, Contre-Jour.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 09, 2020, 07:04:03 AM
I'd already asked on symphonyshare if anyone can upload it, without knowing that it had the electronic version of the prologue from Espaces Acoustiques. I know it's an important disc in the history of spectral music. I wasn't aware at all of the Ensemble Itinéraire recording.
Beautiful photos of Ensemble Intercontemporain, conductor Matthias Pintscher, and soprano Sophie Burgos in Grisey's Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil (1997-98).
https://twitter.com/Ensemble_inter/status/1667256078940229635?s=20
-Bruce
Stimulating essay on Grisey and the man/machine dualism here in this recording of Chants d'amour.
https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/36/000154863.pdf