GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: madaboutmahler on August 18, 2012, 11:07:22 AM

Title: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 18, 2012, 11:07:22 AM
I thought now that the Strauss comparison is coming to a close, I would set up the thread for the next Blind Comparison, continuing the series for the Mahler symphonies, now arriving at his first.

I have selected 24 recordings for the comparison, and to begin with, there will be 3 different groups each with 8 different performances of an extract from the first movement.

If you would like to take part, please just post a message here to let me know! The links for the first part of the comparison will be sent out next week.

Judging from the recordings selected, I think this is going to be a thrilling comparison!! :D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on August 18, 2012, 11:37:25 AM
You can certainly count me in. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on August 18, 2012, 11:48:04 AM
Yessir!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 18, 2012, 01:10:51 PM
Great to have you two on board! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on August 18, 2012, 01:26:25 PM
Hand raised.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 18, 2012, 01:27:05 PM
Another participant.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 18, 2012, 01:48:16 PM
Great to have both of you on board too, Johan and Jim! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on August 18, 2012, 02:38:23 PM
I'll at least try - though studies and thinking of them might take up too much time.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: david johnson on August 18, 2012, 11:26:04 PM
i'm in for gustav!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on August 19, 2012, 03:02:34 AM
Sounds interesting. I'd like to give it a try. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 19, 2012, 04:06:59 AM
Great to have you here, and welcome to the 'Blind Comparison' projects! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on August 19, 2012, 04:27:16 AM
In. :D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 19, 2012, 04:42:54 AM
I'll play.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 19, 2012, 04:47:17 AM
Just looked at my collection of a million days worth of music on my iTunes, and only a single Mahler 1 is in there  :o

...so, changed my mind, I'll also play, a piece I know well, but only several recordings. I hope the Mahlerians go easy on me when I pick Boulez to win every Mahler comparison  :P  8)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 19, 2012, 04:49:55 AM
Great to have you, John, Sarge and Greg!

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 19, 2012, 04:47:17 AM
Just looked at my collection of a million days worth of music on my iTunes, and only a single Mahler 1 is in there  :o

...so, changed my mind, I'll also play, a piece I know well, but only several recordings. I hope the Mahlerians go easy on me when I pick Boulez to win every Mahler comparison  :P  8)

;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 19, 2012, 05:08:43 AM
Of course I'm in. It's Mahler with the Baton in the Drawing Room! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 19, 2012, 05:30:30 AM
Great to have you here, Neal! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on August 19, 2012, 06:30:24 AM
Please count me in  :P This blind test is so interesting
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 19, 2012, 07:54:11 AM
Quote from: trung224 on August 19, 2012, 06:30:24 AM
Please count me in  :P This blind test is so interesting

Great to have you! Glad you enjoy the blind comparisons! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 19, 2012, 07:56:01 AM
I'm seriously considering holding a Flight of the Bumblebee comparison. I have about 85-90 different versions, can't wait to find out who holds the greatest performance of this insect-inspired masterpiece! 
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 19, 2012, 08:00:30 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 19, 2012, 07:56:01 AM
I'm seriously considering holding a Flight of the Bumblebee comparison. I have about 85-90 different versions, can't wait to find out who holds the greatest performance of this insect-inspired masterpiece!

;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on August 19, 2012, 09:24:48 AM
Greg, on a more serious note, I'm seriously considering a Gaspard de la Nuit comparison. It's short and in multiple parts for multiple rounds, it inspires widely different readings, and we need something that doesn't feature a full orchestra!

Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 19, 2012, 05:08:43 AM
Of course I'm in. It's Mahler with the Baton in the Drawing Room! :)
I, for one, greatly look forward to agreeing with you on every single ranking.  ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 19, 2012, 09:30:52 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 19, 2012, 09:24:48 AM
Greg, on a more serious note, I'm seriously considering a Gaspard de la Nuit comparison. It's short and in multiple parts for multiple rounds, it inspires widely different readings, and we need something that doesn't feature a full orchestra!
I, for one, greatly look forward to agreeing with you on every single ranking.  ;D


I agree, Brian! Count me in.
I was seriously thinking about suggesting something more from classical or baroque era, and something definitley chamber like a Schubert SQ or even a Beethoven piano sonata.

Perhaps I'll just have to create one on my own.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 19, 2012, 09:41:31 AM
Considering how many dropped out of the Zarathustra finale, is it wise to propose more blind listening threads? Most people have limited time, making even one difficult to finish. If we have multiple comparisons going on, I think we'll burn out.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 19, 2012, 10:24:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 19, 2012, 09:41:31 AM
Considering how many dropped out of the Zarathustra finale, is it wise to propose more blind listening threads? Most people have limited time, making even one difficult to finish. If we have multiple comparisons going on, I think we'll burn out.

Sarge

You're right, and I wouldn't propose a new one until the current one is complete. And I feel participants would drop out of any of them, it happened in Mahler 6, and Zarathustra.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on August 19, 2012, 11:58:22 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 19, 2012, 09:30:52 AM

I agree, Brian! Count me in.
I was seriously thinking about suggesting something more from classical or baroque era, and something definitley chamber like a Schubert SQ or even a Beethoven piano sonata.
We definitely have not had the classical/early eras represented nearly enough. I was considering Beethoven but then ran into the issue of judging HIP vs. non-HIP and didn't settle on a solution.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on August 19, 2012, 03:04:46 PM
Trying to get beyond my newb status, I must say that when it comes to Mahler, I've always taken comfort in Bernstein, Chailly, Bertini or Gielen's interpretations. I love Bernstein but unfortunately I slightly prefer Chailly's box (Decca's box to be more accurate) because of a better sound quality. Mahler is so much about sound. You have to perceive the orchestra's potential, to let the orchestra mutate into various themes and emotions, to let yourself get sunk by its sheer power, by it's strength, by its gravity. You have to perceive its width, its depth... you have to feel the littleness of you while being engulfed by Mahler's universe... I think I have some Boulez too but he kind of stays behind. Mahler doesn't seem to be his true territory.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: jwinter on August 19, 2012, 04:18:33 PM
I haven't tried one of these before, but what the heck -- I'll give it a shot  :)   I have oodles of Mahler on the shelf, but I honestly don't listen to Mahler 1 very often -- should be interesting!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 20, 2012, 10:11:45 AM
Quote from: jwinter on August 19, 2012, 04:18:33 PM
I haven't tried one of these before, but what the heck -- I'll give it a shot  :)   I have oodles of Mahler on the shelf, but I honestly don't listen to Mahler 1 very often -- should be interesting!

Great! Welcome to the Blind Comparisons! :)

Quote from: johndoe21ro on August 19, 2012, 03:04:46 PM
Trying to get beyond my newb status, I must say that when it comes to Mahler, I've always taken comfort in Bernstein, Chailly, Bertini or Gielen's interpretations. I love Bernstein but unfortunately I slightly prefer Chailly's box (Decca's box to be more accurate) because of a better sound quality. Mahler is so much about sound. You have to perceive the orchestra's potential, to let the orchestra mutate into various themes and emotions, to let yourself get sunk by its sheer power, by it's strength, by its gravity. You have to perceive its width, its depth... you have to feel the littleness of you while being engulfed by Mahler's universe... I think I have some Boulez too but he kind of stays behind. Mahler doesn't seem to be his true territory.

Very interesting, thanks for posting. I wonder how Bernstein will do in this comparison, considering he was one of the first to be eliminated in the first round of the Mahler 6 comparison, which was a surprise to all of us I think!!

I'll probably start putting together the links tommorow, hopefully they'll be with you by the end of the week. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on August 20, 2012, 01:43:14 PM
Way cool -- looking forward to it and expect I'll have time to participate.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 20, 2012, 01:56:44 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 20, 2012, 01:43:14 PM
Way cool -- looking forward to it and expect I'll have time to participate.

Great, David! I am very excited about starting this comparison! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on August 20, 2012, 02:14:22 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 20, 2012, 10:11:45 AM
Great! Welcome to the Blind Comparisons! :)

Very interesting, thanks for posting. I wonder how Bernstein will do in this comparison, considering he was one of the first to be eliminated in the first round of the Mahler 6 comparison, which was a surprise to all of us I think!!

I'll probably start putting together the links tommorow, hopefully they'll be with you by the end of the week. :)

Isn't all this about understanding Mahler? I agree you/we are many but being many doesn't make you/us less susceptible to subjectivity. Many might not be enough. I still believe that Lenny knew his lessons well. If this was because he was jewish too or not, that I don't know. Maybe he managed to establish an ethnic connection. Maybe thinking jewish is the answer. The ethnic isolation, the angst, the exotic motifs... I think Lenny knew how to handle them. I realize now that this problem might be even more complicated. A recording is not only about orchestra and conductor, unfortunately. There is a posibility that some of the conductor's wishes might be twisted by the technical team who manages the recording, the mastering, etc. What I'm trying to say is that maybe Lenny wanted the funeral trumpet solo in the 5th or some woodwinds to play in a manner and the mikes and the mastering twisted his wish one way or another, more or less, to a smaller/bigger degree. Sorry for expressing myself in so many words and phrases. Hope my words make sense to someone... ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 20, 2012, 02:20:09 PM
Very interesting post, Radu, thank you for posting! Perhaps that could be a reason why Bernstein connected with Mahler so much. I love the fact that when he arrived in Vienna for the first time, he was wearing a t-shirt saying 'I love Mahler!'. And of course, the understanding of all of this could be very important in this particular symphony, with the use of the Jewish themes in the funeral march.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 20, 2012, 04:16:12 PM
and the winner is....BOULEZ  8)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on August 21, 2012, 12:45:19 AM
Hello madaboutmahler

I would like to take part in this. Should be a great learning experience.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TimH on August 21, 2012, 02:57:11 AM
Count me in!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 21, 2012, 04:38:26 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 20, 2012, 04:16:12 PM
and the winner is....BOULEZ  8)
:D
I wonder if Boulez will do as well as he did last time in M6..? This is all so exciting!

Great to have you taking part, Beale and TimH! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on August 21, 2012, 02:14:38 PM
what the heck, i'll play too
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 22, 2012, 05:11:32 AM
Welcome aboard! :D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 22, 2012, 05:46:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/WLR98iCcYOI


Found a good sample we could use for the third movement, this performance might win gold!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 22, 2012, 05:55:45 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 22, 2012, 05:46:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/WLR98iCcYOI


Found a good sample we could use for the third movement, this performance might win gold!

;D

Edit: It sounds strange hearing it in a major key now!!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on August 24, 2012, 04:51:01 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 20, 2012, 04:16:12 PM
and the winner is....BOULEZ  8)
One of my top choices, fer shure ... along with half a dozen others!  :-[  That and Boulez's 6th rekindled my interest in Mahler many years ago and led me to collect his cycle, anxiously anticipating each release and buying them unheard as issued. Got equally nutty about MTT's Mahler cycle and Gielen's (but was late to the party for that one). Seldom have to buy without hearing them first these days, thanks to Naxos, Mog, & Spotify!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on August 24, 2012, 06:48:36 AM
I believe any worthy Mahler should be one conducted by Bernstein, Chailly, Bertini, Ozawa, Michael Tilson Thomas, Gielen, Tennstedt... maybe Alan Gilbert's and Honeck's too. I'm not all smiles about Boulez, Giulini, Eschenbach. I just posted this thinking someone in great search prowess might look into one of these guys and find the one ringing best. I own Bernstein's, Chailly's, Bertini's and Gielen's complete Mahler cycles. I own some MTT, less Boulez and Ozawa. Heard some interesting Eschenbach and not a very bad Giulini. Alan Gilbert's 9th (unfortunately the only one I have so far) is absolutely mind blowing. BIS is definitely on the wave sound-wise too. Any Mahler aficionado should try some Chailly, some Bertini, maybe Gilbert. Any of them might be the correct answer. Hope any reader understands I posted my personal opinions. I might be wrong. For Mahler's sake I hope I'm not. :D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on August 24, 2012, 08:00:50 AM
As of today, I fell in love with Honeck's No.1 of Mahler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op95WFXnIuo

I've tried to listen to all No.1's I have these days and today, after Honeck, my eyes are definitely more wide open. This is a beautiful coloured interpretation, very natural, extremely gentle and yet so dynamic. Honeck's caress is so exhilarating. Exton is top notch when talking about sound quality, too. My version, the album version is with the Pittsburgh Symhpony Orchestra. It's definitely a must hear...
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on August 24, 2012, 08:04:17 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on August 24, 2012, 08:00:50 AM
As of today, I fell in love with Honeck's No.1 of Mahler.
Best of his lot, so far, and an alternate take that's exhilarating even if not quite consistent with my preferences. This and Fischer's new M1 represent opposite poles of the interpretive spectrum.

You might also like Suitner's M1.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on August 24, 2012, 08:09:52 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 24, 2012, 08:04:17 AM
Best of his lot, so far, and an alternate take that's exhilarating even if not quite consistent with my preferences. This and Fischer's new M1 represent opposite poles of the interpretive spectrum.

You might also like Suitner's M1.

I agree. Didn't fully appreciate his 5th (my favorite) but No.1 is great. I'll try to 'sniff' some Suitner too. Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 24, 2012, 08:17:49 AM
I too think Honeck's First is sensational...and agree his Fifth is a major disappointment. But I love his Fourth, too, although I understand if some think it mannered. Honeck's Third I'm still digesting.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on August 24, 2012, 08:46:09 AM
I hope I'm not OT...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuOeSFriWfs&list=UU0pB0uVuGW35dsB7QGai_aQ&index=1&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH2FZmH-_r0&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s5ACLHW9JQ&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyMp-mlbG8w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-EjpcFv_wQ&list=UU0pB0uVuGW35dsB7QGai_aQ&index=3&feature=plcp

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on August 24, 2012, 02:31:15 PM
i haven't heard the cd version of the 5th with honeck, but his philharmonie concert on youtube has the most mindblowing first movement [probably rivalling Lenny].  the rest of the symphony kinda ran out of steam tho
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 25, 2012, 07:34:43 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on August 24, 2012, 08:46:09 AM
I hope I'm not OT...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuOeSFriWfs&list=UU0pB0uVuGW35dsB7QGai_aQ&index=1&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH2FZmH-_r0&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s5ACLHW9JQ&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyMp-mlbG8w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-EjpcFv_wQ&list=UU0pB0uVuGW35dsB7QGai_aQ&index=3&feature=plcp

Thanks for posting these links, Radu. 'Conducting Mahler' looks particularly interesting, I'll try to get hold of the  whole film some time. It's great to read your enthusiasm for Mahler! :)

Right, all audios sorted now, just need to upload them. You can be expecting the message early this evening! What a joy it has been to listen to 24 different performances of the first movement! :) 
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 25, 2012, 09:19:46 AM
Ok, all of the links have now been sent out. If you have not recieved your link, please let me know as soon as possible!

Let's put the first voting deadline at Saturday 8th September, is that ok with everyone? Of course, if you wish to, and have the time, please let me know if you would like to do more than one group.

Just so you are aware, only 4 recordings from each of the groups will be going through to Round 2. So, the 4 in your group with the least number of votes shall be eliminated.

Happy Voting everyone! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on August 25, 2012, 09:41:32 AM
Forgive me for not searching backwards... What do you mean by me being in the 'X' Group. Why are more groups? What's the difference? :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 25, 2012, 10:00:28 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on August 25, 2012, 09:41:32 AM
Forgive me for not searching backwards... What do you mean by me being in the 'X' Group. Why are more groups? What's the difference? :)

No worries - there are 3 groups. A, B, C. The 24 performances selected are shared equally between those three groups, so there shall be 8 different performances in each different group. You are allocated to one of these groups to begin with, but if you have the time, and wish to, you can compare another of the groups too, or even all 3! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on August 26, 2012, 04:06:02 AM
  Here is my vote
B1:  What the performance! The opening with quite and pause creat the sense of mystery. The rest is full of angst, powerful. Rank 1. I have heard so many Mahler 1 but none of those like this. Rank 1
B2: The first hearing make me think that performance is too leisure and underplayed, but the rhapsodic character (which IMHO is important in Mahler 1 ) is clearly demonstrated. The portamenti in the string (which is disappeared in 21st century) create the dance-feel for this performance. I guess this is performed by the first generation of Mahler conductor like Barbirolli, Horenstein or possibly Kubelik. Rank 2
B3: Detail but routine, underplayed. Rank 8
B4: the performance is underplayed, but in some moment tempo is slow down to creat the tension in next section, very convincing. The brass is so great, energetic but detail, emotional , I guess this is from Chicago Symphony Orchestral. Rank 4
B5: Great opening with so much tension, but the second section is too restrained though tempo is right and the detail is well-judged. Rank 5
B6: Great opening, tempo is somewhat erratic but still impressive, especially in the ending, remind me of the marverick conductor like Scherchen but in better sound, possibly Gergiev. The performance underlined on the dark side, aggressive character with expense of the lightness, youthfulness. Rank 3
B7: Energetic but still in control. Good but not special. Rank 6
B8: Underplayed, sometimes detail is very distinctive and convincing, but that all. Rank 7

To sum up, B1>B2>B6>B4>B5>B7>B8>B3
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on August 26, 2012, 05:24:36 AM
I'm quite excited. Hope I didn't blow it too bad. The judgement was made solely on headphones listening, last night...
B1. quite well balanced. Nothing special about it, yet nothing wrong. I'm afraid I couldn't find anything special. No faults whatsoever so this is my no.1
B6. pretty heavy and veiled opening. Lot of tension and mistery into it. Interesting ending with some slow pacing for energy build up.
B3. a little sterile or artificial but I liked it. Besides that, nothing wrong with it. Can't surely tell why I liked it. Could this be Chailly?
B7. strange linear tension build up. A little too fast paced at times. Maybe a little sterile...
B8. not bad at all but a little sterile. Powerful yet artificial.
B4. a little too colourful and unengaging. Needs more contrast.
B5. a little too fast paced. Lacks power. Some colours. The end is definitely better.
B2. worst of all. Very rustic and colourful. Totally unengaging. Mahler is definitely explosive. It needs contrast, power, depth. It's too floral, too joyful for my taste...

B1>B6>B3>B7>B8

I am pretty sure my results are pretty messed up. Mahler is quite difficult to judge and the great choice of interpretations are overwhelming. Can't take any decision without listening to all 8 pieces at a time... and 8 is a little too much for such a complex piece. I'll try to listen again one of these days. Maybe I'll change my mind a little.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on August 26, 2012, 08:13:12 AM
Okay, Daniel -- I listened to each of the selections ONCE, making some notes and then ranking them.  I liked only three of them: B8, B7, and B1. B3 and B6 round out my preferred 5, less because of their virtues than because of the other choices' vices. I'd like the links to the other groups, if you please, for what I welcome most about this exercise is the chance to observe my own responses to these samples without knowing who's playing. I see it as a gut check of my own tastes, rather than an effort to rank contenders from best to worst.

Ranking (most liked to least liked):
B8
B7
B1
B6
B3
B5
B4
B2

This is an interesting exercise and I see now why the results of the M6 comparison were so puzzling to some of us who love recordings that did not fare well. It's very difficult to make meaningful judgments about a 60 minute long piece from just a couple of short excerpts.  (Where's Paul Best when we need him? ;) )

Notes:


#3 B1 (live) – opening damned near perfect, strings a little soft/quiet, timing/tempo right on, off-stage horns right on, cuckoo call could be a touch saucier, low strings could be a bit more ominous, could be a bit more swing into stroll
--closing could be a bit edgier but emphasis and balance are well-chosen, beautiful build into the big finale with wonderful whooping brass, nice raucous edge, basses seem a bit underpowered, overall very good!

#8 B2—opening: WTF is that droning in the background—a DC10? And what's with the somnambulant "bubbling" winds? Horns sound awful (crappy recording quality). Is this orchestra on 'ludes?
--closing: still sleepwalking and with abominable sound quality. Weak horn calls at end. Tinny sound. Awful pacing. How can I put this kindly?  Oh, yeah – everything about this recording sucks!

#5 B3—opening:  same droning—awful balance. Also a bit drowsy, but better than 2 and with much better SQ.
Horns are lovely, full-bodied, resonant, plucked strings properly brisk, nicely ominous basses. But falls apart just before swinging into jaunty stroll
Ending—Love the strings here, winds a bit weak. Horn call very good. Pacing of buildup to finale good. Overall pretty good. Nothing to write home about but nothing drastically wrong, either. Nice timpani at end.

#7 B4—better balances at opening (no DC 10 taking off), but a bit perfunctory, dampening the mystery. Off stage brass a bit too enthusiastic/brisk, cuckoo thin & shrill, horns sound like they're under Wagner's Rhine.  Swing into country stroll well managed but a bit lethargic.
Closing—lovely at first (but don't like sound of horns—muddy), buildup a little brisk, no mystery, no sense of the ominous implacable, just a bit heavy-handed and rhythmically inflexible.

#6 B5—just a touch fast and perfunctory, diminishing the mystery of primordial awakening, the horns sound nostalgic—not right at all, Winds squawky & lifeless
Closing—still too hurried, no savoring of buildup, sound thin, all a bit brusque, not a unified effect leading to finale, as if different sections of orchestra are doing their own thing

#4 B6—too perfunctory, intrusive audience coughing, poor SQ, DC10, good hunting horns, phrases unfinished--brusque instead of lingering, savoring; low strings much too fast;  Swing is lackluster—doesn't swing at all
Closing—sounds fine at first, build up good, just a touch fast, but good sense of implacable momentum;
Whooping horns nice but too smooth, no raucous edge, pacing good throughout this section, orchestra on same page. Finish very good.

#2 B7- opening good, more time to breathe and build, good bubblies, off stage good, all good so far, cuckoo tone could be a lot better, horns good,  balances good, nicely ominous bass strings, fine swing into jaunt, could be a bit brisker but still good
Closing—good enough that I found myself caught up in listening instead of judging –all quite good!

#1 B8—opening:  beautiful, perfect—timing, tempo, balances, pacing, nice graceful swing into stroll
Closing—very good, damned near perfect again!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 26, 2012, 11:21:03 AM
Wow, you guys were quick! First day and already three votes!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on August 26, 2012, 12:00:43 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 26, 2012, 11:21:03 AM
Wow, you guys were quick! First day and already three votes!
No problem finding an hour and a half to fit this in on the weekend but it might not be so easy to find the time later on!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on August 26, 2012, 02:53:00 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 26, 2012, 08:13:12 AM
Okay, Daniel -- I listened to each of the selections ONCE, making some notes and then ranking them.  I liked only three of them: B8, B7, and B1. B3 and B6 round out my preferred 5, less because of their virtues than because of the other choices' vices. I'd like the links to the other groups, if you please, for what I welcome most about this exercise is the chance to observe my own responses to these samples without knowing who's playing. I see it as a gut check of my own tastes, rather than an effort to rank contenders from best to worst.

Ranking (most liked to least liked):
B8
B7
B1
B6
B3
B5
B4
B2

This is an interesting exercise and I see now why the results of the M6 comparison were so puzzling to some of us who love recordings that did not fare well. It's very difficult to make meaningful judgments about a 60 minute long piece from just a couple of short excerpts.  (Where's Paul Best when we need him? ;) )

Notes:


#3 B1 (live) – opening damned near perfect, strings a little soft/quiet, timing/tempo right on, off-stage horns right on, cuckoo call could be a touch saucier, low strings could be a bit more ominous, could be a bit more swing into stroll
--closing could be a bit edgier but emphasis and balance are well-chosen, beautiful build into the big finale with wonderful whooping brass, nice raucous edge, basses seem a bit underpowered, overall very good!

#8 B2—opening: WTF is that droning in the background—a DC10? And what's with the somnambulant "bubbling" winds? Horns sound awful (crappy recording quality). Is this orchestra on 'ludes?
--closing: still sleepwalking and with abominable sound quality. Weak horn calls at end. Tinny sound. Awful pacing. How can I put this kindly?  Oh, yeah – everything about this recording sucks!

#5 B3—opening:  same droning—awful balance. Also a bit drowsy, but better than 2 and with much better SQ.
Horns are lovely, full-bodied, resonant, plucked strings properly brisk, nicely ominous basses. But falls apart just before swinging into jaunty stroll
Ending—Love the strings here, winds a bit weak. Horn call very good. Pacing of buildup to finale good. Overall pretty good. Nothing to write home about but nothing drastically wrong, either. Nice timpani at end.

#7 B4—better balances at opening (no DC 10 taking off), but a bit perfunctory, dampening the mystery. Off stage brass a bit too enthusiastic/brisk, cuckoo thin & shrill, horns sound like they're under Wagner's Rhine.  Swing into country stroll well managed but a bit lethargic.
Closing—lovely at first (but don't like sound of horns—muddy), buildup a little brisk, no mystery, no sense of the ominous implacable, just a bit heavy-handed and rhythmically inflexible.

#6 B5—just a touch fast and perfunctory, diminishing the mystery of primordial awakening, the horns sound nostalgic—not right at all, Winds squawky & lifeless
Closing—still too hurried, no savoring of buildup, sound thin, all a bit brusque, not a unified effect leading to finale, as if different sections of orchestra are doing their own thing

#4 B6—too perfunctory, intrusive audience coughing, poor SQ, DC10, good hunting horns, phrases unfinished--brusque instead of lingering, savoring; low strings much too fast;  Swing is lackluster—doesn't swing at all
Closing—sounds fine at first, build up good, just a touch fast, but good sense of implacable momentum;
Whooping horns nice but too smooth, no raucous edge, pacing good throughout this section, orchestra on same page. Finish very good.

#2 B7- opening good, more time to breathe and build, good bubblies, off stage good, all good so far, cuckoo tone could be a lot better, horns good,  balances good, nicely ominous bass strings, fine swing into jaunt, could be a bit brisker but still good
Closing—good enough that I found myself caught up in listening instead of judging –all quite good!

#1 B8—opening:  beautiful, perfect—timing, tempo, balances, pacing, nice graceful swing into stroll
Closing—very good, damned near perfect again!

@ David: Glad to see that there's a slight resemblance in our ranking. At least we agree that B2 is the worst performance and B1 is a damn good one. It's my first blind comparison and I was in doubt about my capacity to discern anything... Really anxious to find out about who's conducting what piece...

@Daniel: Fire another group of performances! I'm sure I can find some spare time to listen to another group before the deadline. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on August 27, 2012, 12:06:01 AM
b1
b8
b4
b2
b7
b6
b3
b5

im pretty sure i know what recording b1 is so bias probably played part...but it's just so perfect!
after that i only really liked b8 b4 and b2.  the rest were either missing that 'special' feeling or badly played imo
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: david johnson on August 27, 2012, 12:52:31 AM
here you go, my preferences for group C

C8 - best for me
C6 - really good
C4 - great fun
C5 - similar to C4 but brighter tone quality
C2 - more clear to me than C1, more 'atmosphere'
C7 - i think i know who this is, but i do not own it
C1 - good balance
C3
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on August 27, 2012, 04:23:07 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on August 26, 2012, 02:53:00 PM
@ David: Glad to see that there's a slight resemblance in our ranking. At least we agree that B2 is the worst performance and B1 is a damn good one. It's my first blind comparison and I was in doubt about my capacity to discern anything... Really anxious to find out about who's conducting what piece...
No worries, Radu, the only thing we're trying to discern is what we like! And aside from the camaraderie and wit, what I like most about this forum is meeting like-minded souls with similar tastes whose recommendations and observations enrich my listening experience. One man's maudlin excess is another's impassioned sensitivity. ;) 8)

I, too, look forward to hearing more samples. Done right, the portentous opening of Mahler's 1st is one of my favorite moments in music.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on August 27, 2012, 06:18:35 AM
I wonder if this is included in the set of 24?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww5pzaQHMzU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww5pzaQHMzU)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on August 27, 2012, 09:15:36 AM
Here are my humble opinion on Group A. Quite nervous about this as I was never quite sure what criteria to use. In the end I favored music that I found interesting and engaging.

(ordered from most liked to most disliked)
A8: the most balanced and engaging of this set. The music builds up nicely and there is a sense of purpose and drive. A very coherent presentation with nice orchestration.

A5: Lots of interesting nuances here, more so than the others. Perhaps the conductor is trying to make this stand out from the crowd. Good beginning has the right awakening feel. Very brass heavy towards the end, but in a nice earth shattering way.

A1: A very enjoyable and leisurely reading. The balance is well judged.

A4: Another interesting one that builds up a sense of dread and mystery. The tension and drama is very deliberate, before exploding into the finale.

A6: I liked this one, but I found nothing really special about it to place it higher.

A7: I found the beginning to be too laid back and distanced. The ending was good, but I felt it lacked a sense of overall coherence.

A2: Found this to be lethargic and plodding. Lots of mystery but no sign of the wayfarer. Don't really like the horns in this one.

A3: The awakening feels just right, but it never go anywhere with it. It is like an eternal state of snooze until nearly the end.

I hope this result is agreeable.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 27, 2012, 09:42:04 AM
Wow - great to have so many votes so early! Thank you all for your votes, very interesting. I very much enjoyed reading all of your comments too.

I know that Radu and David what like to do another group, would anyone else like to? Please let me know! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on August 27, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
Quote from: Beale on August 27, 2012, 09:15:36 AM
Here are my humble opinion on Group A. Quite nervous about this as I was never quite sure what criteria to use. In the end I favored music that I found interesting and engaging.

(HERE IN LISTENING ORDER)

A1: A very enjoyable and leisurely reading. The balance is well judged.
A2: Found this to be lethargic and plodding. Lots of mystery but no sign of the wayfarer. Don't really like the horns in this one.
A3: The awakening feels just right, but it never go anyway with it. It is like an eternal state of snooze until nearly the end.
A4: Another interesting one that builds up a sense of dread and mystery. The tension and drama is very deliberate, before exploding into the finale.
A5: Lots of interesting nuances here, more so than the others. Perhaps the conductor is trying to make this stand out from the crowd. Good beginning has the right awakening feel. Very brass heavy towards the end, but in a nice earth shattering way.
A6: I liked this one, but I found nothing really special about it to place it higher.
A7: I found the beginning to be too laid back and distanced. The ending was good, but I felt it lacked a sense of overall coherence.
A8: the most balanced and engaging of this set. The music builds up nicely and there is a sense of purpose and drive. A very coherent presentation with nice orchestration

I hope this result is agreeable.

Wow Beale, we are in different Orchestra Halls!   :D
Notes as listened:

A1 - Heavy handed opening should be lighter.  Lacks mystery.  Not as layered as expected.  Later, a wee bit hurried, not enough emphaiss on dalliance when required.  'Too' Robust.

A2 7:40 - Mystery!  Entry into a different dimension.  More cohesion in the musical progression - reswelling of strings after each wind interpolation!  Some brilliance of orchestral control.  This has got me already.  This is exactly how I want to hear it.  Brilliant use of the brass.

A3 16:00 - No.  It is opening in thick woods, and not ...it is playing but not inviting me. It is milk chocolate box playing.  Very nice, but it doesn't know its supposed to be dark chocolate.  In terms of interpretative effort, it gets 0.  It is okay I guess, but it is not 'telling me anything'.

A4 24:10 - Some very nice playing, nice altering emphasis in the strings. Nice depth between instruments.  This opening doesn't have the magic, but a musical narrative makes itself known to me which makes up for it.  I can go places with this.  Later:  Pure folk tale.  If I thought I could hear a narrative as it started, it sure is telling me stories now!  Oh boy, this is good!  This is music-making greatness!

A5 - 32:00 - A controlled sense of beauty, not wonder, from the start.  A bit slow on the uptake here and there.  It does not do enough in the opening section to justify the glory that comes after it.  Uneven.

A6 - 40:10 - For some reason, M1 here sounds more like a French symphony than a germanic one. It is not a 'big treatment' of M1, but exciteable none the less. Some nice touches, but I wouldn't touch too much.

A7 - 47:35 - I am left after the opening notes saying to myself:  "And?..."  Nice recording, but I can't hear much Mahler sound in it. It is not alive.  For all its eventual noise, I can't hear it breathe.

A8 - 55:37 - Very nice playing. Nicely seperated, good pacing - but too many things coming together instead of being together.
Second part, a brilliant pastoral beneath the surface.  Thumbs up.

Result:  A4, A2, A8, A1, A6. A7, A5, A3  Tough between A4 an A2.

EDIT:  Before listening to the B Group, I re-listened the A's again, and just HAD to turn my top two around.  A4 is my top choice, it really communicates with me.  It narrates so much, for all I know it is Inbals Mahler.  Thats how much I like it!   :D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 27, 2012, 11:47:28 AM
Thank you for your vote, John, very interesting comments! Of course, if you would like to do another group too, please let me know! :)

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on August 28, 2012, 02:25:59 AM
Quote from: Scots John on August 27, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
Wow Beale, we are in different Orchestra Halls!   :D

Hello Scots John. Actually our rankings are pretty close as in the table below.



   Beale   Scots John   Difference
A1   3   4   1
A2   7   1   6
A3   8   8   0
A4   4   2   2
A5   2   7   5
A6   5   5   0
A7   6   6   0
A8   1   3   2

The main points of difference being A2 and A5. I concur with your notes and observations.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on August 28, 2012, 04:34:41 AM
 Daniel, may you send me the clips for A and C group.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on August 28, 2012, 08:17:12 AM
Thanks for sending links for the other groups, Daniel. As I feared, the worst happened: most of the best ones were in the same group!

I listened to each group independently on sequential days, playing each set of samples straight through in one session, making notes along the way and pausing between selections to consider ranking among those previously heard in the same group. My choices follow, with notes in small font to make them easier to ignore for those who might be perusing this thread before making their own choices but who seek to minimize the potential for others to influence what they hear:

Group A top 5 (not ordered by preference): A1, A2, A5, A7, A8

Group C top 5 (not ordered by preference): C1, C2, C6, C7, C8

Notes for A:
Quote#5 A1—Opening splendidly dragged out, SQ dated but not awful, horns awfully distant and slow, orchestral balances off and sound muddy/muddled, low strings aggressive rather than ominous, No swing or jauntiness --- FAIR
Closing—all a bit too languid, uneven, unfocused, swimming in quicksand instead of tight and implacable, emphases weak, sounds like an amateur orchestra doing its best but not quite hanging together, not quite getting it, either haphazard or frenetic—not bad but not good, either

#4 A2—Poor and dated SQ, timing & balance good for opening but truncated a bit, suffering from bad sound, lacking in nuance, horns just straight ahead, orchestra doesn't feel this music, basses nice, building well, SQ muddies the winds, nice swing into gentle lilting strolling music
Closing—better, building nicely, nice broad finale, more lilting than driven, decent performance let down by lousy SQ – FAIR+

#8 A3 – beginning not bad, lacking last bit of lingering nuance, SQ big improvement, distant trumpets in another county?!, lackluster cuckoo & horns—lulling INTO slumber, not beckoning wakefulness—cuckoo just awful, dull & squawky, balances bad, low strings barely discernible, no swing, sleepwalking not strolling
Closing—still bad balances, buried sound, lackluster not thrusting, trudging not surging, a very weak performance, tsk tsk.... Clueless! Ending tacked on, not emerging organically. Dumb!

#8 A4—too perfunctory to build and sustain mystery. Winds nice but lack nuance.  Offstage brass good if passionless.  Cuckoo much better than previous one but lacks sauciness.  The whole thing sounds disjointed, random sounds, rather than unified and related in an inexorable awakening. No swing
Closing—WTF? Sounds like Mantovani, not Mahler! Padded, muddy, Bloodless buildup to finale, do these guys even care a little about what they're p;laying? I've heard Merry Melodies cartoon scores with more conviction!

#3 A5—decent start, good winds, proper lingering, nicely judged off stage brass, strings could be "pluckier" but ok, cuckoo good, horns excellent, low strings not quite right but otherwise a very good opening, no swing, not jaunty, just so-so
Closing—okay, build-up a bit forced, trumpets too pushy, strolling theme lackluster & muddy, still a bit disjointed, at least I like this one more than I dislike it!

#8— A6—just a bit too fast and perfunctory instead of lingering & mysterious, pushing instead of emerging, cuckoo okay, horns sound drunk--tipsy, trumpets a bit too loud, commanding not distant beckoning, low strings too pushy, lack ominous foreboding, no swing, just playing notes
Closing—Wow, still just playing the notes. Da da da da da da daaa. Boring.  Lifeless. Dull. The orchestra sounds as if they're checking their watches to see how much longer they have to go through with this before they can go home. Just a touch of galloping to the barn at the finish. "Almost over? Good! Let's get 'er done!" 

#2 --A7—Balance just a bit off. Winds are nice even if a tad unenthusiastic.  Distant horn calls nicely judged. Cuckoo okay, horns okay, nice slowly building sense of awakening going on, low strings good, just a bit deliberate before almost swinging into a lilting stroll with nice sense of warmth –a success!
Closing—nicely judged tempo changes and dynamic shifts, at least this one is alive and growing, reaching, stretching toward something! Buildup to finale seems organic, not forced, nice lilting reprise before the big finish, just a bit rushed, perhaps, but finally a success!

#1 --A8—Wonderful opening, almost perfectly judged in every way, winds just a little dull, trumpets, horns, cuckoo, strings—all good! Low strings good but just short of the ideal brooding implacability, decent shift but no swing into stroll, not jaunty, either
Closing—buildup just a little weak, lacking ideal edginess, but good lift and drive into finale, nice whooping even if lacking raucous edge, finally a good (but not great) version!

Notes for C:
Quote
Note: For the most part these samples were all so good that I found it difficult to make fine judgments among them based only on one hearing of these short sections.  If all 24 (A, B, and C) were included in one group, my top five choices might all come from C.

#1--C1—Very nice opening, perfect timing, good balances, nicely bubbling winds, lovely building anticipation, trumpets & horns right on, good cuckoo & pluck, lovely nuanced horns, beautifully ominous undercurrent in strings, well-timed & balanced joining in, lovely swing into strolling rhythm – Damned near perfect!
Closing—nice sort of dreamy, wistful feeling, could be a bit more edginess in buildup, but it still works, implacable surging momentum, brass great at climax, raucous enough as needed, orchestra together in well-judged tempo shifts, strong finish—again damned near perfect! This is the first recording of the 17 heard so far that I think is a contender.

#1--C2—Wow—another one starting well, good timing, balance, sustain, winds bubbling but not over the top, all first rate so far, great sense of mystery and anticipation, off-stage brass distant but characterful, I love the slowly building tension, the cuckoo & horns are slow but engaged (like bubbling winds), timpani & basses just right, winds joining well, gentle swing into sleepy but awakening stroll—Very Nice!
Closing—Slight wistfulness again, surge a bit edgier than previous one but less forceful (?), climax strong, bit more triumphant and easily reconciled,  steady acceleration to oompah then after, strong finish—another top-notch effort!

#3--C3—Another good start, just short of the previous two, great bubbling winds, nice plaintive oboe, lovely anticipation, trumpets too distant, winds characterful but just a bit much, horns almost Straussian, offstage better, nicely ominous basses, not much swing, a bit stilted stroll
Closing—still a bit stilted instead of lilting, buildup seems a bit thin, detached, instead of engaged, no edge to surge, climax well done, still a bit shy of fully committed, raucous brass subdued (buried in mix), comes together nicely in race to finish, interesting hammer-edge to timpani sound.  Pretty good overall but a notch below C1 & 2.

#3--C4—opening good, just a wee bit brisk, love the subdued quality of the winds, distant horn calls a bit distant, cuckoo—hmmm, the balances in this one seem to emphasize the world's spaciousness, subtle shift to undercurrent in basses, character sustained in build to swing—disappointingly mild and underpowered, otherwise a nice alternative beginning
Closing—lovely lilting stroll, savoring delights of the countryside, shift to buildup just a bit underpowered, emotional content, edginess builds to climax right along with tempo & dynamic build—works, nice breaking into meadow after cresting an arduous climb—another nice one!

#2--C5—Another good opening out of the same mold, balances perfect, winds, trumpets, horns, even the damned clarinet all seem faultless, proper plucky accent, I'd like the basses to growl just a bit but that's a minor quibble as it builds seamlessly to a gentle swing into a lilting stroll—VERY NICE!
Closing—begins in splendid fashion, love everything about it, great balances, nice buildup, more surging than edgy, climax good again, lovely whoops, another very good performance—that makes 5 out of 5 for group C so far.

#1--C6—Another fine beginning, just a bit clipped instead of lingering ideally, but very close. Love the offstage balance, growing undercurrent, cuckoo, nostalgically longing horns, wonderfully plucky, oboe good throughout, very nice low growl to basses, build up well-managed, lovely tones from all, no swing, really, just a bit soporific –very good except for disappointment at the last
Closing—lovely, a bit dreamy, more emphasis on beautiful sounds and chamber balances, transparency in this recording, surge is good, lacks edginess but works, crest is a spilling over rather than a triumph, broad and beautiful, joining in a lovely finish. Another first-rate recording!

#1 ½-- C7—Okay, just a bit perfunctory, like the lingering bubblies but not thin oboe, offstage good, strings start pushing just a bit, horns okay, basses could be louder, winds a bit disjointed leading to nice but underpowered swing, jaunty but detached stroll (Daniel Day Lewis in The Age of Innocence). Good but short of the best.
Closing—nice swirling dance, lovely sounds, lovely lilting stroll now, still a bit jaunty, buildup shy of surge and edge, climax good, broadly triumphant, graceful beauty aftermath, nice march, all well integrated, great playing, love the orchestra.

#1 --C8—Cut from same cloth as before but better, I might like this one best of all, nuance of oboe, horns, offstage, pluck, cuckoo—basses good but just a bit underpowered (?)---ACK, sample cut short before swing into stroll!  How to compare handling of that critical transition? RATS! --Guess I'll have to wait till the identity is revealed (And if I don't have this one, I'll probably buy it!)
Closing—lovely gentle dancing stroll, just the right emphasis leading to build, nice surge, great trumpets, could use a bit of edginess, great moment of triumph, lovely whoops, love integration, acceleration at end, terrific orchestra, great finish.  Might be my favorite among a very good lot.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 29, 2012, 01:08:38 AM
Group C: Mahler's Symphony No. 1

A tale of two worlds. After listening to the first four, I was starting to despair. I hadn' t liked a single one. Was it me? Was there something about the piece? And then I heard the next four and was blown away. There is a huge gap between 4th and 5th for me.

My rankings were (in order): C6, C5, C8, C7.............................................................................C2, C1, C3, C4.

My Rankings:
C1: Ok opening, but a bit static. Seems too deliberate. The sound is nice, but it plods along. And when the orchestra makes small, but important entrances (like the bunch around t 5:10), it feels tentative. But when the big explosion comes...finally! It's like they suddenly woke up. A tale of Jekyll and Hyde here.  Ranking:  6

C2: Decent start, though a bit shapeless. Trumpets are at a nice distance.  And when the buildup comes, pretty good. A bit more majestic than the first version, which seemed more thrilling. Deciding between them is difficult as they have the same problems and equally good advantages (just different).   Ranking:  5

C3: Another similar start, but the clarinet (and bass clarinets) entrance seemed more interesting than usual. Trumpets even more offstage here. This one seems to be aiming for a bit more variety (phrasing and volume) at the start, which I like. But then later, it slows down to molasses before the big explosion. Ugh. Then the rest of the clip seems a bit underwhelming.  So while I prefer the start here, C1 and C2 exceed it for me. Ranking: 7

C4: Start is dull. Clarinet entrance is dull. Trumpets were almost inaudible at first (strain to hear them). Horns seem a bit out of tune or unsteady in their tone at first. But then it starts to get rolling, and it is more interesting (though too slow). The buildup here is slow in coming and lacks punch to start. Trilling flutes irritated (audible over everything). Misses the target.   Ranking: 8

C5: Oh, now this start was a bit more interesting. Trumpets nicely offstage.  Horns so much better here than in C4. It is the only one so far that I have actually liked. For second portion – sounds like a hummer. I like the expressiveness here.  The buildup is great!  And then – wait for it – a darn good explosion of sound. Perhaps not perfect, but well done.  Ranking: 2

C6: Oh, and another nice opening. And the trumpets have a wonderful offstage entrance – very fine.  Love the bass sounds, which I never really noticed in the others so much. Soft transition works. Second portion has a softer buildup too. And the explosion surges (that's the best way I can describe it). You can hear the instruments at the end better too (more transparent).   Ranking: 1

C7: Ok start, but not quite as good as previous two. Nice clarinets, though trumpets, like in C4, are nearly inaudible at first. Horns seem to strain a bit. Some of the plucked entrances really surprise. Loses steam a bit, which might have been nice if the main theme had not come in the same way. Is there a balance issue in the buildup – brass sticks out too much (and I notice this later too). This one brings a certain lightness to it that almost gives it elegance. I liked it. Ranking: 4

C8: Yet another nice opening. Nice mellow sounded clarinet entrance. Trumpets seem too far away compared to a couple of the others. Buildup is nicely done, but why so suddenly slow?  The explosion that comes after seems strangely disconnected as a result. Some balance issues as well (trumpets and timpani stick out). On the other hand, I loved the control of the playing (and the precision).   Ranking: 3
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on August 29, 2012, 01:52:21 AM
Ha ha... Mind puzzling topic. ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on August 29, 2012, 04:09:15 PM
Quote from: Scots John on August 27, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
It is milk chocolate box playing.  Very nice, but it doesn't know its supposed to be dark chocolate.
Gorgeous metaphor.
Stop trying to influence me!!!  ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 31, 2012, 05:58:52 AM
Thank you very much, David (very impressive you have done all 3 groups in such a short time!) and Neal, for your votes. Very interesting comments from both of you!

Neal, what are your thoughts on the music itself at the moment? :)

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2012, 06:07:29 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 31, 2012, 05:58:52 AM
Thank you very much, David (very impressive you have done all 3 groups in such a short time!) and Neal, for your votes. Very interesting comments from both of you!

Neal, what are your thoughts on the music itself at the moment? :)


I enjoyed the last four entrants more than I expected, but I find it hard to say definitively with short clips. I need to hear the 'bigger picture'. We'll get there...
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 31, 2012, 06:10:31 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2012, 06:07:29 AM
I enjoyed the last four entrants more than I expected, but I find it hard to say definitively with short clips. I need to hear the 'bigger picture'. We'll get there...

Glad to hear that, Neal! Of course, by the final round, hopefully we'll be comparing as much as the symphony possible! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on September 02, 2012, 11:48:51 AM
Okay, at last I'm starting!

C1: Weird opening. The instrumental entrances have very different characters - woodwinds seem staid and plain, trumpets a little too rowdy. Before the last minute or so, this performance definitely seemed a bit staid and the rhythms repetitive. Weird that the conductor steps on the gas for the ending; shows what we'd been missing before. 4/10; C1 is my #8 choice

C2: The strings seem a bit unsteady in that tricky opening. Much cleaner trumpets than C1. The ending was okay but I felt very meh about this one. 5/10; C2 is my #7 choice

C3: Really great, vintage woodwinds have me 50% confident this is a Czech orchestra (Neumann/CzPO?). Gosh I love the clarinets. But at 22:00 in the file, the tempo momentarily gets very ponderous; the big outburst returns our conductor to decent form, only slightly square. After that my main complaint is the overbright trumpet. Gosh, this is such a Czech reading. 6/10; C3 is my #5 choice

C4: Subtle clarinets, very loud oboes, very distant trumpets. After the break, it feels very pastoral and open-fields-ish, though a bit stiff around 29:30. Pretty awesome "explosion," although at 30:57 I can feel all the energy briefly dissipate (it returns about 15 seconds later). Some seriously good playing in the final moments. Bizarrely long pause after the first timpani bit in the coda, though. 6/10; C4 is my #6 choice

C5: Older recording, great strings, such wonderful horns too. The conductor shows a far better understanding of how to pace the opening and unify the various elements than we saw in, say, C2. Even the drumroll seems worthy of praise. The cellos float on an angelic cloud right before the break; definitely the best opening so far. Oooh and after the break, though the recording's age shows so does its quality. This is totally outstanding. It's also, though this is kinda a random thought, how I always imagined Kubelik/DG might sound, so I really hope that's what it is. Only wish the timpani didn't sound kinda out of tune at the very end. 9/10; C5 is my #1 choice

C6: Perfectly calm entrance by the strings, but I find that the sound removes some of the mystery from the woodwind and horn solos. Is that a weird thing to think? After the break, a pastoral account with some pretty accomplished playing; all in all very well done, sounding utterly lovely. Probably the most gorgeous orchestral sound of the bunch. Don't look at me funny if I say I prefer the wacky character of C5, though. 9/10; C6 is my #2 choice

C7: Either I'm reaching burnout stage, or this is the third one in a row where I've really enjoyed the atmospheric opening and some very good playing. Really striking pizzicato from the violins, very mellow horn solo. Trumpet's a bit off after the intro ends, right before the break. After the break, it's going along fine before a bit of stiff phrasing at 53:36. It's just a bit heavy in the final pages, and so falls just short of 5 and 6. 7.5/10; C7 is my #4 choice

C8: Brash offstage trumpets seem to have a different conductor than the very nocturnal soloists from the rest of the orchestra (the horns are almost too subtle!). I wonder if they're meant to be hunting bugles? I also wonder if we've found Boulez! I think this clip is at a competitive disadvantage because clip 1 ends much sooner than it does on all the others: we don't get to hear the cellos and trumpets introduce the main theme. After the break: yeah okay this orchestral playing is obscenely good, so precise, but a little bit choppy rhythmically as the conductor braces himself very dramatically for the big outburst, like he's scared of it. The brass is crazy-good, the French horns sounding ridiculous. This is a jubilant final coda. Who knew guywhosoundslikeBoulez could exult? 8/10; C8 is my #3 choice

I think I'll try another group!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2012, 04:44:20 AM
Great, thanks for your vote, Brian! Very interesting comments! Will send another group to you now. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: jlaurson on September 03, 2012, 05:28:39 AM
INSERTION, just to have the thread pop up on my radar.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TimH on September 04, 2012, 02:52:21 AM
Found it a difficult exercise to rank the Group A performances as found little to choose between many of them. After listening to them all twice my top three are A5, A1 and A7, with A2 at the bottom of the pile. Difficult to choose the best two out of the remainder. Anyway, here it goes...

1st = A5: For me, this had the greatest stature; incisive and dramatic with tempos just right and a crystal clear recording.

2nd = A1: The most idiosyncratic and characterful of the set; at first thought a bit too "in your face", e.g. loud string harmonics and wind entries throughout opening, but overall a committed and exciting performance which grew on me; some fuzzy sound distortion.

3rd = A7: Restrained, elegant and smooth sounding; second excerpt starts laid back but builds in urgency.

4th = A6: In first excerpt, too much vibrato in horn duet - a bit ripe and offputting; 2nd excerpt - after a laboured build-up, sweeps along joyously by the end.

5th = A8: Pleasing overall, but several key string entries rather quiet and anonymous in first excerpt.

--------------

6th = A4: First excerpt - poised beginning, then too much 2nd horn in horn duet, cello entry woolly; second excerpt starts too slow but plenty of momentum by end.

7th = A3: Marred by excessively slow sections, e.g. start of second excerpt.

8th = A2: Orchestra lacks punch - sounds rather anaemic, maybe a recording issue?

Will not be at all surprised if my choices are out of kilter with the rest of the group!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 04, 2012, 05:03:16 AM
Thank you for your vote, TimH!

Just a reminder that the voting deadline for this part is this coming Saturday the 8th. If you need extra time, please let me know. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 04, 2012, 06:05:03 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 04, 2012, 05:03:16 AM
Thank you for your vote, TimH!

Just a reminder that the voting deadline for this part is this coming Saturday the 8th. If you need extra time, please let me know. :)


Holy schnikes!
Forgot about this, I'll have it done by then, thanks, Mad-Daniel.  ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 05, 2012, 11:13:51 AM
Really, impossible to judge adequately. Could it be eight excerpts were too many for me with the lack of time I had this time around? Did we have eight selections for the Mahler 6? I can't even remember.

But I'll give it a go, but only snapshots of my impressions. I don't expect too much from the opening of the piece, lots of mystery, some compelling woodwinds and a nice cuckoo leading to a jaunty exposition. But I expect to be swept up in the finale.

In order of preference:

1. A4. Loved the unexpected accents that immediately sounded appropriate. Nicely drawn out tension, exuberant finale. Sounded just about perfect to my ears. Big no. 1.
2. A8. Well judged all the way through but quite distinct. Real excitement at the end as much from the performance as the notes on the page.

Those two stood out, followed by:

3. A2. Nice mystery after the artificially dry sinuses of A1. Drums a little muffled in the finale.
4. A7. Good opening but a bit clunky transition to the exposition. Finale relatively nondescript but better than some others.
5. A3. Not great but solid. Good tension in the opening. Sluggish beginning to the finale but it picks up.
6. A1. Clear and bright eyed all the way through. That hurts in the opening, not as much in the finale where the performance  just zips right along. Exciting, in its way, but too meticulous.
7. A6. Not much to say. Some slurring in the violins? OK but an inadequate finale.
8. A5. Opening OK but a nothing finale. Little appeal compared to the others.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 05, 2012, 12:56:00 PM
Thank you for your vote, Jim! Very interesting comments. :)

3 more days until the voting deadline, everyone! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 05, 2012, 01:02:00 PM
Lots of good recordings in the group.

1. C8
2. C5
3. C6
4. C2
6. C7
7. C1
8. C3
9. C4
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 05, 2012, 01:06:03 PM
Thank you for your vote, Karlo! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: jwinter on September 06, 2012, 07:48:11 AM
This was a tough assignment, particularly since I'm transitioning into a new job so I didn't have quite as much spare time as I'd hoped....

My four keepers are definitely A8, A5, A1, and A4.  A8 struck me as the most well-rounded overall, with a great burst of energy in the finale.  A5 had very distinctive brass, with the opening very finely drawn.  A1 has a very nice clear opening as well, with a fiery finish, A4 a bit slower but perhaps also a bit more power at the end.

A6 was good, but nothing special.  A2 and A7 seemed rather flat to me, not a lot to grab onto.  A3 was similar, but picked up some thrust at the end.

So the ranking:  A8, A5, A1, A4, A6, A3, A2, A7

Thanks for putting this together Daniel, it's fun -- I wish I'd been online when we did the Mahler 6...
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 06, 2012, 08:25:00 AM
Quote from: jwinter on September 06, 2012, 07:48:11 AM
This was a tough assignment
I agree, and looking at the results for the A group, which are pretty much all over the place, I'm guessing others might feel the same.
Some choices are clear. A1 was definitely distinct and I would guess most people knew how they felt about it.

jwinter put A5 at number 2 and it was dead last for me. But that one was not so distinct, at least to me. But I wonder if I listened to it again down the road I'd like it more.
Eager to see how it all plays out. Fascinating experience. 
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 06, 2012, 09:32:44 AM
Quote from: jwinter on September 06, 2012, 07:48:11 AM
This was a tough assignment, particularly since I'm transitioning into a new job so I didn't have quite as much spare time as I'd hoped....

My four keepers are definitely A8, A5, A1, and A4.  A8 struck me as the most well-rounded overall, with a great burst of energy in the finale.  A5 had very distinctive brass, with the opening very finely drawn.  A1 has a very nice clear opening as well, with a fiery finish, A4 a bit slower but perhaps also a bit more power at the end.

A6 was good, but nothing special.  A2 and A7 seemed rather flat to me, not a lot to grab onto.  A3 was similar, but picked up some thrust at the end.

So the ranking:  A8, A5, A1, A4, A6, A3, A2, A7

Thanks for putting this together Daniel, it's fun -- I wish I'd been online when we did the Mahler 6...

My pleasure! Thank you for your vote, hope the new job goes well! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on September 07, 2012, 07:21:33 AM
Quote from: jwinter on September 06, 2012, 07:48:11 AM
So the ranking:  A8, A5, A1, A4, A6, A3, A2, A7

Wow wow wow jwinter, your top five picks were identical to mine. Could be that we share the same musical taste, at least in Mahler. I have to pay close attention to your recommendations from now on.

After ranking Group A I also tried Groups B and C. No ranking necessary as I don't think it would alter the results. For Group C my preferences were pretty close to the consensus; the last four were noticeably better than the first four. For Group B I noticed more differences of opinion., for example I liked B3 but many did not.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 07, 2012, 10:50:58 AM
Just over one day left until the voting deadline for this part of the comparison. If you need extra time, please let me know.

And to remind you, 4 recordings from each group will be eliminated in this round, leaving us with 12 for the second round. We shall be comparing from the trio in the 2nd movement and straight on through around 5 minutes of the 3rd movement. Very exciting! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on September 07, 2012, 07:44:07 PM
B!

B1: Strings too quiet relative to the winds at the start; they're almost not there! It is a very cool effect, though; might have been better if the winds were a little more muted. After a while I grew to like the softness and subtlety of the touch, though. Reminds me of a friend's remark that it's truly special to hear a great orchestra play so quietly. The clip as a whole struck me as very good but not special... even though I think I know who it is, and it's one I'm supposed to say is special. Rating: 8/10; ranked #1 of 8

B2: Wow, I really like this one a lot. There's a bit of conductor fussiness in the second half, but not much, and other parts are admirably direct. Really well-played too. Everyone else hated it? Huh. Maybe I'm weird. Rating: 8/10; ranked #2 of 8

B3: Other than sliiightly overprominent horns, a very good opening, and I'm starting to wonder if I'm gonna like this whole group. Nope: second clip is almost as domesticated and breezy as the first. Wish there was a bit more depth or oomph. Maybe it's that the recording is really top-heavy; whither the bass? Rating: 5/10; ranked #7 of 8

B4: Opening's a little faster than the others, non? Love the Viennese waltziness with which the second clip begins, but it's a little brought down at the climax by really thin annoying trumpets and by my feeling, at the end, that I have no idea what to make of this clip, somehow. Rating: 6/10; ranked #5 of 8

B5: Strings a little rough, clarinet entrance a little less deep and bubbly than ideal, but I also realize listening to 16 Mahler Firsts makes me really picky! Weird echo to sonics sometimes. We've got very 'wobbly' eastern European horns again, suggesting something Czech or Polish... the sound problem is back with a vengeance after the break, with parts of the orchestra sounding out of sync with each other. Wow, the trumpets are kinda violent compared to the horns. Okay, the restrictions of the recording bother me even more on this one than they did on the mono (B2). I'm kinda wondering if this is Russian: Svetlanov. Rating: 5/10; ranked #6 of 8

B6: This opening's not going to cut it. So little mystery. Trumpets far too clinical. Horns boring. Clarinet boogers up a cuckoo call. I like the double bass presence in this live recording, but little else. Endgame's a little too fast. Rating: 3/10; ranked #8 of 8

B7: Loud winds at start. Wow the clarinet cuckoo calls are piercing. Horns have a very full bloom, and the second clip is very nice indeed. Wish the opening was better. Rating: 7/10; ranked #3 of 8

B8: Competent, understated opening, feels very natural. It also does feel a bit emotionally cool after the break, like it's too busy being nice. This is the only conductor who's slowed down right before the big explosion but known exactly how to do it successfully. Horns, timpani a bit too far back. Rating 6/10; ranked #4 of 8

Wow. I really, REALLY did not like this group. Very mediocre.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 08, 2012, 04:45:33 AM
Sorry to hear you didn't particularly enjoy all of Group B, Brian, but thank you for your vote! :)

Ok, around 8 hours left until the voting deadline! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on September 08, 2012, 05:10:07 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 08, 2012, 04:45:33 AM
Sorry to hear you didn't particularly enjoy all of Group B, Brian, but thank you for your vote! :)

Ok, around 8 hours left until the voting deadline! :)

8 Hours?  I thought it was tomorrow!  I have reported on A and now have the Group B, and will report back before 8 hours Daniel...or on the cusp of 8 hours...   :o
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 08, 2012, 06:01:40 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 08, 2012, 05:10:07 AM
8 Hours?  I thought it was tomorrow!  I have reported on A and now have the Group B, and will report back before 8 hours Daniel...or on the cusp of 8 hours...   :o

Sorry if I had misled you, John.... excellent, thank you! If you do need a bit more time though, that is fine. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 08, 2012, 12:36:36 PM
C8 is the only one that could do no wrong. Especially loved the horns (vulgar when they needed to be) and a great walloping bass drum to launch the burst into Spring.

C8 1

C1 2

C4 3

C2 4

C5 5

C6 6

C7 7

C3 8


Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 08, 2012, 01:56:48 PM
Group A was rather good, I enjoyed listening to so many different recordings of the 1st symphony, which is one of my favourites of Mahler's cycle. I was particularly impressed by A4, it was the only one I heard with a perfect tempo in the finale, absolutely amazing! ;D

A4
A8
A1
A2
A3
A6
A5
A7
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 08, 2012, 02:17:36 PM
Thank you, Sarge and Ilaria, for your votes! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 08, 2012, 02:49:01 PM
Although I told Daniel I can't finish the job in time, I managed to listen to group C. I'll probably be a little zombie tommorow but it must be worth it... So here goes:
I.    ... C8
II.   ... C6
III.  ... C5
IV.  ... C7

V.   ... C2
VI.  ... C1
VII. ... C4
VIII. ...C3

C8 was by a large margin the best of the group. C3 is probably the worst one I heard in both B and C groups. I'm way too tired to describe any other opinions... Sorry. Going straight to bed now... :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on September 08, 2012, 04:09:37 PM
 A group
A1: Heavy handed in opening and leisurely in second section. At the first time I do not like this, but the unique interpretation is always worth hearing. Rank 4
A2: A lot of mystery in the opening section, like B1. The secend section burn out energy. Poor sound but really Great. Rank 2
A3: Routine, underplay. Rank 7
A4: Deliberate pace but the most powerful, focus building climax. The tempo is like the river, so natural. Rank 1
A5: Tempo is right, some interesting phrasing. Dramatic but the finale is somewhat underplayed. Rank 3
A6: like A3, very routine, not bad but not good. Rank 6
A7: restrained, elegant. For me, that is not Mahler. Rank 8
A8: Overrall great, tempo just right, balanced and nice record, but somewhat anonymous and too straightforward. Rank 5
Sum up: A4>A2>A8>A1>A5>A6>A3>A7
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on September 08, 2012, 05:50:31 PM
The 'B' Group

B1  Opening strings too distant.  Is it a Farmer conducting? No real dynamics in the final part.
B2  Either this is not a world class orchestra or the rehearsals were too quick or the conductor had a hangover.  Somehow doesn't 'breathe' properly. Not a good digital rendering.  But I do like hearing the triangle in the final section!  I love triangles in music!  :-)
B3  Opening way too hurried for my liking - delivered with nothing to shout about.  Boring in fact.  Later section the playing is ok, but rarely an interesting phrase goes by.  It is not 'big' enough for me.
B4  Opening A's are great, but then things go too fast.  Very nice offstage brass though. Not enough of the big drum in the final part...and it lacks some of the wonder that should be there.
B5  Why am I finding these openings too fast?  Same again.  Later - again nothing special at all.  I am getting angrier listening to each one...NONE so far have even reached a 70% satisfaction rate for me...  :-(
B6  These conductors are taking amphetamines?  I'm going to tell their mothers.  Come on B6, you sound ok, but where is the magic?  A muffled big drum in the final section...I am getting fed up with this.  I hope B7 does something..!
B7  Straight away this is better than anything 'B' so far...MUCH better.  Not hurried.  Nice build ups. Still not much of that magic about it, but...nice blend of the instruments.  Second part nicely paced and...oh yes, here we go!  Winner by far, so far.  Way to go.  Best ending too.
B8  This is quite good...but not good enough.  Well played but standard fare. Straight playing.


Many of the openings are too fast with not enough swelling in final section.  Only ones that bust my 70% are B7 and B8, in that order, and B8 only just made it.

Result:  B7, B8, B6, B4, B5, B1, B3, B2

Other than B7 and B8, the rest are fodder, all so bad I can't really give them an accurate order, so they are placed in no order whatseoever because I can't seperate them, other than B2 which is definitely last, despite the great triangles!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 04:06:07 AM
Group C results:


david johnson  mc urkneal  Brian  North Star  Sarge johndoe21ro

C8                          C6         C5        C8               C8     C8
C6                          C5         C6        C5               C1     C6
C4                          C8         C8        C6               C4     C5
C5                          C7         C7        C2               C2     C7
C2                          C2         C3        C7               C5     C2
C7                          C1         C4        C1               C6     C1
C1                          C3         C2        C3               C7     C4
C3                          C4         C1        C4               C3     C3


Wow...I'm really the odd man out here. The only one to put C1 and C4 in the top half, the only one to put C5 and C6 in the bottom half. What does this mean? It means you should never take my advice about Mahler because you'll likely not agree with me  ;D

Edit: I see that DJ ranks C4 third like I did. I'm not so odd afterall  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 04:46:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 04:06:07 AM
Group C results:


david johnson  mc urkneal  Brian  North Star  Sarge   johndoe21ro        DR

C8                          C6         C5        C8            C8        C8               C8
C6                          C5         C6        C5            C1        C6               C1
C4                          C8         C8        C6            C4        C5               C2
C5                          C7         C7        C2            C2        C7               C6
C2                          C2         C3        C7            C5        C2               C7
C7                          C1         C4        C1            C6        C1               C5
C1                          C3         C2        C3            C7        C4               C3
C3                          C4         C1        C4            C3        C3               C4


Wow...I'm really the odd man out here. The only one to put C1 and C4 in the top half, the only one to put C5 and C6 in the bottom half.
Daniel asked me to rank them rather than just sorting them into top 5 & bottom 3. I think this was how I ranked them--note that I ranked C1 the same as you and put C5 a notch lower, Sarge.

That doesn't mean I think it was bad.  This was the best batch of the three--the samples ALL sounded good to me. (Maybe it was just my mood on the day I listened to them, but I don't think so.) ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 04:57:29 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 04:46:50 AM
Daniel asked me to rank them rather than just sorting them into top 5 & bottom 3. I think this was how I ranked them--note that I ranked C1 the same as you and put C5 a notch lower, Sarge.

That doesn't mean I think it was bad.  This was the best batch of the three--the samples ALL sounded good to me. (Maybe it was just my mood on the day I listened to them, but I don't think so.) ;)


Thanks for ranking them, David. It's nice to have some company 8)  I wonder if Monkey Greg will get his vote in. In previous comparisons he and I were usually in fairly close agreement.



david johnson  mc urkneal  Brian  North Star  Sarge DavidRoss johndoe21ro

C8                          C6         C5        C8               C8      C8              C8
C6                          C5         C6        C5               C1      C1              C6
C4                          C8         C8        C6               C4      C2              C5
C5                          C7         C7        C2               C2      C6              C7
C2                          C2         C3        C7               C5      C7              C2
C7                          C1         C4        C1               C6      C5              C1
C1                          C3         C2        C3               C7      C3              C4
C3                          C4         C1        C4               C3      C4              C3

P.S. I agree with, you, David, about the strength of the C group. The only ones I actually disliked were C3 and C7.


Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 09, 2012, 05:05:57 AM
It was a great group indeed.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 09, 2012, 05:06:59 AM
Thank you Radu, trung224 and John for doing an extra group! Very interesting! And I share your love for the triangles in B2, John!!  8)

And thanks, Sarge and David for posting the comparison between the Group C voters. Very interesting to see! :)

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 09, 2012, 06:07:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 04:57:29 AM

Thanks for ranking them, David. It's nice to have some company 8)  I wonder if Monkey Greg will get his vote in. In previous comparisons he and I were usually in fairly close agreement.



david johnson  mc urkneal  Brian  North Star  Sarge DavidRoss johndoe21ro

C8                          C6         C5        C8               C8      C8              C8
C6                          C5         C6        C5               C1      C1              C6
C4                          C8         C8        C6               C4      C2              C5
C5                          C7         C7        C2               C2      C6              C7
C2                          C2         C3        C7               C5      C7              C2
C7                          C1         C4        C1               C6      C5              C1
C1                          C3         C2        C3               C7      C3              C4
C3                          C4         C1        C4               C3      C4              C3

P.S. I agree with, you, David, about the strength of the C group. The only ones I actually disliked were C3 and C7.


Sarge
Well C8 appears to be through for sure as it was voted in the top 4 by everyone.

It would seem difficult for C6 to miss the cut, as it is in 6 of 7 top 4's.

C5 is in 5 of 7 top 4's so should also make the cut.

The three fighting it out are: C7 is in only 3 of 7 top 4's (and 4th at that). C2 also appears 3 times (and 3 votes for fifth, while C7 has two votes for fifth). C1 appears twice, but is three times ranked sixth.

C3 and C4 seem unlikely to make it.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 09, 2012, 06:41:19 AM
                 ranking
C1: 37      6
C2: 33      5
C3: 50      8
C4: 43      7
C5: 23      3
C6: 20      2
C7: 30      4
C8: 11      1

So C8, C6, and C5 are clearly making it.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on September 09, 2012, 07:43:52 AM
C1  00:00  Oh goody.  Nice opening and build up. Even. Second part...I know this...I must have it somewhere...bloody brilliant.  Ticks all the boxes for me.  We are up in the 90%+ satisfaction rate for me...but it sounds so like a performance I already have, not sure which one.
C2  08:00  Oh goody again.  Offstage instruments really do sound offstage this time. This is more magical but less brillaint. Second part - airy build up to the coda.  Not as explosive as I thought it would be - TRIANGLES!!  Yes!
C3  16:28  Oh! Something a little different. It's the same story in a different accent.  When the basses come in they 'glide' in.  The most feminine one I've heard yet out of all the groups, but not the most Mahler-ly.  Brilliant build up to the coda.  Very thoughtful, but my brain is still intact after it, so maybe not for me.
C4  24:28  Eh...I like the opening pace, but something is missing and I don't know what.  Too liesurely with no effect by far.  Later, hmm...nice audio dynamics going on.  I 'quite' like this.
C5  32:20  Most magical opening so far with a nice build up to the opening melody, which comes in...eh...with little effect. :-(  Part Two I can hear the conductor humming at the beginning...this is ok but I would probably choose another.
C6  40:15  Yes, very good, the cuckoo always comes in to good effect!  Nice layering.  Good recording.  The second part could do with some more effective phrasing, but is nicely presented.
C7: 48:44  Comes in at breakneck speed lol, but there is a little magic in the natural A's.  Oh, the pizzicatto - what an interesting take on that!  Now this DOES have some interesting touches.  The second part is walking, then...oh my...this is not just played, it's given a 'treatment' - but still, I might look for treatment elsewhere, despite there is much I like about it.  Weak ending.
C8  56:38  Somehow the opening sounds familiar, I may have this as well.  I am waiting to hear something interesting or uniquely good...now in the second part...still waiting...well, some magic in the hesitant string part...oh yes, now we're talking, best ending...woo hoo, etc, I'm air conducting!

Result:  C1, C8, C2, C7, C6, C5, C3, C4
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 07:58:05 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 09, 2012, 07:43:52 AM
C1  00:00  Oh goody.  Nice opening and build up. Even. Second part...I know this...I must have it somewhere...bloody brilliant.  Ticks all the boxes for me.  We are up in the 90%+ satisfaction rate for me...but it sounds so like a performance I already have, not sure which one.
Result:  C1, C8, C2, C7, C6, C5, C3, C4

If Monkey Greg weighs in, and with a high placing for C1 too, it might just have a chance of sneaking through to the next round. Or maybe not. I actually don't know how the results are tabulated. I'm usually surprised by what makes it through and what doesn't. Daniel is a mystery  ;D

Still no love for C4  :'(  Well, at least I'll soon know who's conducting  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on September 09, 2012, 08:14:55 AM
These blind listenings make us LISTEN.  I have no bother writing notes in realtime as I truly listen.  This really does sharpen things up.  Some others and I risk making a complete fool of ourselves and the ruination of credibility.  For example, I have stated elsewhere that the opening to Fischers Mahler 1 lacks any magic, and I have bemoaned the Bertini set for having no magic to it.  In GMG I have championed in a big way Inbals Mahler, and Neumanns Mahler for different reasons.  I have also promoted the brilliant Tennstedt as a chart topper, and come to like Soltis Mahler more so, even though it is descibed as a bit 'in your face'. 
Now...what if in these tests, without knowing, I have loved Fischer and Bertini instead, and abused Inbal and Solti.. and others find the same horror outcome with their own preferences?  Well no, no credibility will be lost, because we are not just listening, we are also listening FOR our thing in it...(whatever)...If it ever turns out one or some of us have slanted in a bad way our champions, we will have learned not to keep our mouths shut, but to open them again in the exploration of true musical DISCOVERY, and realise what it is we missed in our own champion lineups.
This is a brilliant way to learn the dyanamics of music and listening skills.
Unfortunately, the files differ significantly in their digital 'transparency' (a concept I learned about from Gurn and D Ross today!! :D) - the audio quality and resultant acoustic dynamics (same thing as 'transparency' I suppose, but I like bigger words!) are different in most cases.  This makes it a somwehat uneven playing field in terms of listening - but we are GMG'ers, we know the music anyway, so it's not too much of a handicap.
Great stuff Daniel, all appreciated.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 08:20:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 07:58:05 AM
Still no love for C4  :'(  Well, at least I'll soon know who's conducting  :D
I liked C4 a lot, more than nearly all the other samples in groups A & B.
QuoteC4—opening good, just a wee bit brisk, love the subdued quality of the winds, distant horn calls a bit distant, cuckoo—hmmm, the balances in this one seem to emphasize the world's spaciousness, subtle shift to undercurrent in basses, character sustained in build to swing—disappointingly mild and underpowered, otherwise a nice alternative beginning
Closing—lovely lilting stroll, savoring delights of the countryside, shift to buildup just a bit underpowered, emotional content, edginess builds to climax right along with tempo & dynamic build—works, nice breaking into meadow after cresting an arduous climb—another nice one!
But I liked most of the other samples in Group C even more--based on one hearing during one session with short pauses between sample sets. I seem to have liked the sense of spaciousness, the way the low strings come in as a dark undertone to the world's awakening, the lyrical "gait" of the wanderer theme in the 4th mvmt, the edgy undercurrent in the build-up at the end. 

For me the idea that this exercise "proves" anything about the relative merits of these recordings is ridiculous. What I value is the opportunity to hear them blind, which lets me check some of my "filed and shelved" opinions against the way I hear things now, and which may open my mind to reconsideration of those opinions. (Yes, I'm one of those weird people beyond the pale who actually enjoys challenging and re-evaluating his own opinions!)

Too bad that the number of selections is so small and weighted, I suspect, toward recordings I'm not particularly fond of and handicapped by several significant omissions, just as in the M6 comparison ... yet the exercise is well worth doing nonetheless. Thanks, Daniel!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on September 09, 2012, 08:30:56 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 08:20:29 AM
What I value is the opportunity to hear them blind, which lets me check some of my "filed and shelved" opinions against the way I hear things now, and which may open my mind to reconsideration of those opinions. (Yes, I'm one of those weird people beyond the pale who actually enjoys challenging and re-evaluating his own opinions!)

Yes David, that is what took me so many words to try to say, and you've nailed it in a quick paragraph.  Cheers!   :D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 08:36:03 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 09, 2012, 08:30:56 AM
Yes David, that is what took me so many words to try to say, and you've nailed it in a quick paragraph.  Cheers!   :D
Nothing wrong with how you said it, John. You described your experience. I just abstracted a principle from my own similar experience. :D 8)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 09, 2012, 08:57:27 AM
John, thank you very very much for doing all three of the groups. I really do enjoy reading your comments which are always very interesting.

:)
Quote from: Scots John on September 09, 2012, 08:14:55 AM
These blind listenings make us LISTEN.  I have no bother writing notes in realtime as I truly listen.  This really does sharpen things up.  Some others and I risk making a complete fool of ourselves and the ruination of credibility.  For example, I have stated elsewhere that the opening to Fischers Mahler 1 lacks any magic, and I have bemoaned the Bertini set for having no magic to it.  In GMG I have championed in a big way Inbals Mahler, and Neumanns Mahler for different reasons.  I have also promoted the brilliant Tennstedt as a chart topper, and come to like Soltis Mahler more so, even though it is descibed as a bit 'in your face'. 
Now...what if in these tests, without knowing, I have loved Fischer and Bertini instead, and abused Inbal and Solti.. and others find the same horror outcome with their own preferences?  Well no, no credibility will be lost, because we are not just listening, we are also listening FOR our thing in it...(whatever)...If it ever turns out one or some of us have slanted in a bad way our champions, we will have learned not to keep our mouths shut, but to open them again in the exploration of true musical DISCOVERY, and realise what it is we missed in our own champion lineups.
This is a brilliant way to learn the dyanamics of music and listening skills.
Unfortunately, the files differ significantly in their digital 'transparency' (a concept I learned about from Gurn and D Ross today!! :D) - the audio quality and resultant acoustic dynamics (same thing as 'transparency' I suppose, but I like bigger words!) are different in most cases.  This makes it a somwehat uneven playing field in terms of listening - but we are GMG'ers, we know the music anyway, so it's not too much of a handicap.
Great stuff Daniel, all appreciated.
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 08:20:29 AM
For me the idea that this exercise "proves" anything about the relative merits of these recordings is ridiculous. What I value is the opportunity to hear them blind, which lets me check some of my "filed and shelved" opinions against the way I hear things now, and which may open my mind to reconsideration of those opinions. (Yes, I'm one of those weird people beyond the pale who actually enjoys challenging and re-evaluating his own opinions!)

Too bad that the number of selections is so small and weighted, I suspect, toward recordings I'm not particularly fond of and handicapped by several significant omissions, just as in the M6 comparison ... yet the exercise is well worth doing nonetheless. Thanks, Daniel!


Thank you both for posting these, very interesting to read. And, it's my pleasure. I really enjoy doing these! :)

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 09, 2012, 09:02:26 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 07:58:05 AM
If Monkey Greg weighs in, and with a high placing for C1 too, it might just have a chance of sneaking through to the next round. Or maybe not. I actually don't know how the results are tabulated. I'm usually surprised by what makes it through and what doesn't. Daniel is a mystery  ;D

Still no love for C4  :'(  Well, at least I'll soon know who's conducting  :D

Sarge

;D
What I do for the results:
1st place = 5 points, 2nd = 4, 3rd = 3 etc. And 6,7 and 8th places = 0. The 4 with the most points from each group go through. Then, a percentage for each of the eliminated recordings in relation to how many people has voted in the particular group will be taken so they can be put into a ranked listing.... I hope that explanation makes some sense....  ???  ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 11:50:44 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 09, 2012, 09:02:26 AM
;D
What I do for the results:
1st place = 5 points, 2nd = 4, 3rd = 3 etc. And 6,7 and 8th places = 0. The 4 with the most points from each group go through. Then, a percentage for each of the eliminated recordings in relation to how many people has voted in the particular group will be taken so they can be put into a ranked listing.... I hope that explanation makes some sense....  ???  ;)
So, unless I miscounted, among those posted above:
40 for C8
28 for C6
22 for C5
14 for C2
13 for C1
12 for C7
6 for C4
1 for C3
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on September 09, 2012, 12:00:52 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 11:50:44 AM
13 for C1

Och, hoots man!   :'(
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 12:20:16 PM
Quote from: Scots John on September 09, 2012, 12:00:52 PM
Och, hoots man!   :'(
Yeah...you, Sarge, and I are the only ones who liked that one. 10 to 1 it turns out to be one of my faves!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 09, 2012, 12:43:35 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 11:50:44 AM
So, unless I miscounted, among those posted above:
40 for C8
28 for C6
22 for C5
14 for C2
13 for C1
12 for C7
6 for C4
1 for C3

Most of those are right, yes. If you want, I can post the number of votes the recording had recieved (or, more practically, the percentage each recording ended up with) when I post the results. Previously I had only done this for the final.

Shall hopefully be posting the results tommorow evening, and if not, then definitely the day after! :)

Thank you all for taking part in the first round! Shall start getting the links together for the second round now. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 12:51:46 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 17, 2012, 06:31:15 AMOff the top of my head I can think of more than half a dozen that are all equally wonderful to my ears. Poor Sarge must be paralyzed by the prospect of choosing among the discs spilling from his shelves!

I have thirty Mahler Firsts...but, I could have stopped with the first I bought (Horenstein/LSO) because, even after forty years, it's still my favorite version. But I like others, too, of course. In order of preference, my Top 10 is something like this:

Horenstein/LSO
Honeck/Pittsburgh
Maazel/Vienna
Ozawa/Boston
Suitner/Dresden
Levi/Atlanta
Rattle/CBSO
Chailly/Concertgebow
Tennstedt/LPO
Bernstein/Concertgebouw


I wonder how many of my choices will make the final round? If past comparisons are any indication, not a single one  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 01:46:44 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 12:51:46 PM
I have thirty Mahler Firsts...but, I could have stopped with the first I bought (Horenstein/LSO) because, even after forty years, it's still my favorite version.
My first one was Walter and I still like it, but there are probably others I would save first in event of catastrophe. Here, not in any order, are the ten best loved around Casa de Dave:

Bernstein/RCO, MTT/SFS, Walter/Columbia, Gielen/SWRSOBB&F, Boulez/CSO, Kubelik/BRSO, Barbirolli/Hallé, Suitner/SKD, with Honeck/Pittsburg as the new hottie and high hopes for the just-acquired Fischer/BFO! Hmmm, donno why Sinopoli's not on that list; maybe overdue for a listen?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 09, 2012, 01:49:44 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 01:46:44 PM
My first one was Walter and I still like it, but there are probably others I would save first in event of catastrophe. Here, not in any order, are the ten best loved around Casa de Dave:

Bernstein/RCO, MTT/SFS, Walter/Columbia, Gielen/SWRSOBB&F, Boulez/CSO, Kubelik/BRSO, Barbirolli/Hallé, Suitner/SKD, with Honeck/Pittsburg as the new hottie and high hopes for the just-acquired Fischer/BFO! Hmmm, donno why Sinopoli's not on that list; maybe overdue for a listen?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 12:51:46 PM
I have thirty Mahler Firsts...but, I could have stopped with the first I bought (Horenstein/LSO) because, even after forty years, it's still my favorite version. But I like others, too, of course. In order of preference, my Top 10 is something like this:

Horenstein/LSO
Honeck/Pittsburgh
Maazel/Vienna
Ozawa/Boston
Suitner/Dresden
Levi/Atlanta
Rattle/CBSO
Chailly/Concertgebow
Tennstedt/LPO
Bernstein/Concertgebouw


I wonder how many of my choices will make the final round? If past comparisons are any indication, not a single one  :D

Sarge

This is what we call frustration for someone wanting to choose a version. :) You guys name 10 each, but only overlap on two versions (Suiter and Honeck). I'msure you'll tell me I just need to get them all to decide for myself or something like that!  >:D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 01:53:31 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 01:46:44 PM
My first one was Walter and I still like it, but there are probably others I would save first in event of catastrophe. Here, not in any order, are the ten best loved around Casa de Dave:

Bernstein/RCO, MTT/SFS, Walter/Columbia, Gielen/SWRSOBB&F, Boulez/CSO, Kubelik/BRSO, Barbirolli/Hallé, Suitner/SKD, with Honeck/Pittsburg as the new hottie and high hopes for the just-acquired Fischer/BFO! Hmmm, donno why Sinopoli's not on that list; maybe overdue for a listen?

I actually relistened to Sinopoli today. It's a great one too, but let down by some very odd intrumental balances (although that's pretty much par for the Sinopoli course, and one of the reasons I usually love him).

Looking over my own list, the absence of Boulez, Gielen and Kubelik (especially Kubelik) is striking...but there it is. (And yes, I own them all including both Kubelik DG and Audite.)

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 01:54:52 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 09, 2012, 01:49:44 PM
This is what we call frustration for someone wanting to choose a version. :) You guys name 10 each, but only overlap on two versions (Suiter and Honeck). I'msure you'll tell me I just need to get them all to decide for myself or something like that!  >:D

Nah, just get Horenstein and Honeck (the two H's...okay, that doesn't sound so great   :D ) and be happy  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 02:41:40 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 09, 2012, 01:49:44 PM
This is what we call frustration for someone wanting to choose a version. :) You guys name 10 each, but only overlap on two versions (Suiter and Honeck). I'msure you'll tell me I just need to get them all to decide for myself or something like that!  >:D
Ha! And our tastes are not nearly as dissimilar as some others here! BTW, Sarge & I also agree on Bernstein/RCO--that's as close to universally admired as they get and for good reason.

If I had to pick just three it would be MTT, Boulez, and Barbirolli ... and maybe Honeck if it holds up as well over time! And I'm not saying those are the greatest of all time, but rather that they continue to speak to me in different ways and are more consistently satisfying than the rest. I can't recall a time I've started listening to one of them and then decided I'd rather hear another performance instead. ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 02:47:44 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 09, 2012, 02:41:40 PM
Ha! And our tastes are not nearly as dissimilar as some others here! BTW, Sarge & I also agree on Bernstein/RCO...If I had to pick just three it would be MTT, Boulez, and Barbirolli ...

And I don't own MTT or Barbirolli. Who knows, if I did hear those two, they might leap to the top of the pile. In any case, this comparison should give Neal an idea where his ideal M1 lies.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 10, 2012, 05:51:01 AM
I'm really looking forward to seeing the results of the first round. ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 10, 2012, 06:14:48 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 10, 2012, 05:51:01 AM
I'm really looking forward to seeing the results of the first round. ;D
Yep. Even though only half of them will be identified, I'd still like to know what we listened to. I wonder if my "Yeah, I always knew that was dreck," reactions will outnumber the "No effin' way! How could they not love that one!" reactions.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 10, 2012, 06:17:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2012, 02:47:44 PM
And I don't own MTT or Barbirolli. Who knows, if I did hear those two, they might leap to the top of the pile. In any case, this comparison should give Neal an idea where his ideal M1 lies.

Sarge
That's my hope (because, I'm not forking over the dough for more than one more version). FYI - I do have Horenstein (with the flower cover). I picked it up as a throw in at Berkshire.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 10, 2012, 01:27:02 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 10, 2012, 05:51:01 AM
I'm really looking forward to seeing the results of the first round. ;D

Hoping to post the results for the first round and send out the links for Round 2 tommorow evening. :)
Currently listening to the final 12 in the trio to mid-3rd movement, you've certainly voted for a great selection for Round 2! Going to be very exciting! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 10, 2012, 01:38:20 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 10, 2012, 01:27:02 PM
Hoping to post the results for the first round and send out the links for Round 2 tommorow evening. :)
Currently listening to the final 12 in the trio to mid-3rd movement, you've certainly voted for a great selection for Round 2! Going to be very exciting! :)

Wonderful, I've already rubbed my hands! ;) Thanks for your efforts, Daniel. :)
Does that mean Round 2 only includes an excerpt from the third movement? Pity, I absolutely love the Kräftig bewegt, doch nicht zu schnell......
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 10, 2012, 01:56:15 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 10, 2012, 01:38:20 PM
Wonderful, I've already rubbed my hands! ;) Thanks for your efforts, Daniel. :)
Does that mean Round 2 only includes an excerpt from the third movement? Pity, I absolutely love the Kräftig bewegt, doch nicht zu schnell......

My pleasure! Glad you are enjoying it, Ilaria! :)
No, don't worry, in Round 2 we'll be comparing excerpts from both of the inner movements. We'll start with the trio of the second movement, and go straight on to 3rd movement until around halfway through that movement. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 10, 2012, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 10, 2012, 01:56:15 PM
My pleasure! Glad you are enjoying it, Ilaria! :)
No, don't worry, in Round 2 we'll be comparing excerpts from both of the inner movements. We'll start with the trio of the second movement, and go straight on to 3rd movement until around halfway through that movement. :)

How couldn't I enjoy Mahler's music? ;) Really glad to hear there will be the second movement as well!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on September 10, 2012, 03:14:51 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 08, 2012, 12:36:36 PM
C8 is the only one that could do no wrong. Especially loved the horns (vulgar when they needed to be) and a great walloping bass drum to launch the burst into Spring.

C8 1
C1 2
C4 3
C2 4
C5 5
C6 6
C7 7
C3 8

Sarge
Wow, Sarge, you and I were all over the place comparing our rankings! Your top choice I loved, your second choice I hated, and my two favorites you put smack in the middle.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on September 10, 2012, 04:09:04 PM
I am not long home and will check all this out in the morning.

Oh!  I thought the results were in!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 11, 2012, 09:50:44 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 10, 2012, 04:09:04 PM
Oh!  I thought the results were in!
Sorry, John! :) Just starting to write them now. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 11, 2012, 10:08:58 AM
C'mon, c'mon...  ;D
People are dying here! :P
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 11, 2012, 11:35:48 AM
Almost ready to post the results! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 11, 2012, 12:46:00 PM
Just writing up the last 3 now, will hopefully post in 10 minutes. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 11, 2012, 01:05:17 PM
Hurry up, please...I'm turning purple from holding my breath!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 11, 2012, 01:12:41 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 11, 2012, 01:05:17 PM
Hurry up, please...I'm turning purple from holding my breath!
+O2
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 11, 2012, 01:14:47 PM
Round 1 Results!

24. C3 Czech Philharmonic/Karel Ancerl (Supraphon/1964)
Only recieving one point, voters called this performance underwhelming, although did perhaps admire the variety that the conductor was trying to achieve. Some did also love the distinctive Czech winds too, but overall, not many people felt this was comparable to the others in the group.
[asin]B00007852H[/asin]

23. A3 Vienna Philharmonic/Lorin Maazel(Sony/1986)
Little praise was given to this recording, which was often called lackluster, dull, and the structure of the performance was also criticised. Many also found the tempi to be far too slow.
[asin]B00005R1LR[/asin]

22. B5 Moscow Philharmonic/Kirill Kondrashin (Melodyia/?)
I really wanted to include this recording to show a completely different take on the symphony, although I doubted it would get past Round 1. Voters criticised the orchestra for being lifeless and for not being controlled sufficiently. This recording was called 'brusque', and in places 'perfunctory'.
[asin]B00035VSPI[/asin]

21. A6 Czech Philharmonic/Vaclav Neumann (Supraphon/1992)
Most voters felt that this recording lacked anything special, and in some parts felt 'laboured' and dull.
[asin]B000FIHZPK[/asin]

20. B3 Israel Philharmonic/Zubin Mehta (EMI/1987)
Voters often said how they found nothing wrong with the performance, but called it a little 'sterile and underplayed'.
[asin]B00000JQY8[/asin]

19. C4 City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra/Simon Rattle (EMI/1992)
A few of the listeners really enjoyed this recording, admiring the level of fun and detail. However, most voters did not include this in their top 5, calling the recording 'dull' and 'too stiff' in some places.
[asin]B000UNBQXM[/asin]

18. A7 Radio-sinfonieorchester Stuttgart des SWR/Roger Norrington (Hanssler/2005)
Another recording that recieved mixed views throughout the voters, while some admired the organic sound, and enjoyed how engaging the performance was, others felt that this simply to different to how Mahler should be played. One I personally enjoy very much and that I was hoping would get through to the next round.... oh well! :)
[asin]B000B8QHV2[/asin]

17. C7 Columbia Symphony Orchestra/Bruno Walter (Sony/1962)
This 'classic' was liked rather well throughout, but never recieved more than 2 points per vote. A few voters pointed out that it was OK but just did not compare to some of the other recordings in the group. Voters also found the orchestra not to be absolutely perfect, also with a few balance issues.
[asin]B0001XPY0C[/asin]

16. B4 Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks/Rafael Kubelik (DG/1968)
Another classic, this recording was criticised for not being engaging enough and not having enough contrast. However, some voters admired how Kubelik controlled the tempo to create tension, which they found very convincing.
[asin]B000001GX9[/asin]

15. C1 London Philharmonic/Klaus Tennstedt  (EMI/1977)
Another mixed response for this recording, some placed it right at the top of their lists, saying that they found it 'near perfect'. However, others placed it right at the bottom, finding the balances 'strange', and the performance being too deliberate.
[asin]B004OGDW4M[/asin]

14. B2 Royal Philharmonic/Hermann Scherchen ('Westminster'/1954)
This recording was criticised for lacking power and depth and for the poor recording quality. Voters also doubted the orchestra had much rehearsal time, apart from the triangle player, who was outstanding. There were still people who put this recording towards the top of their list, enjoying the rustic sound and detail.
[asin]B00005OLDQ[/asin]

13. A2 Chicago Symphony Orchestra/Pierre Boulez (DG/1999)
It must be pointed out that this recording was just one point away from being put through to Round 2!! It certainly had many fans, who admired the brilliant orchestral control, and how engaging the performance was. However, some thought the opposite, finding it 'plodding', and thinking that there was a lack of feel for the music throughout the orchestra.
[asin]B00000IIX2[/asin]

So, 12 go on to the next round. The groups shall be merged into 2 new groups: X and Y, which will have 2 from each of the former groups each. Before that, I just thought you may want to know who each of the current favourites from each of the groups are. If not, skip this part! I have changed the colour so that you don't have to read it if you think it will affect your judgement.
Currently in the lead for the A Group is A8, which has recieved 70% of it's possible votes.
Currently in the lead for the B Group is B1 (closely followed by B8) which was recieved 76% of it's possible votes.
And currently in the lead for the C group is C8 with a remarkable score of 88% of it's possible votes!!!!  

Thank you all for waiting, it takes quite a long time to type all of this up!! :)
What do you think of the results? Surprised?

Links for Round 2 will be sent out this evening. Hope you all enjoying the comparison! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 11, 2012, 01:28:41 PM
Thanks, Daniel
(Melodiya)
Wow, the C group indeed is a remarkable group!! Tennstedt, Rattle, Ancerl, and Walter all out in the first round - from the same group!  :o
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on September 11, 2012, 01:30:30 PM
  The result did not surprise me, because some performance is really bad, such as Maazel, Neumann, Rattle or Mehta. Some classics like Bruno Walter or Kubelik are only great when you hear the whole thing, because they capture some unique character (Vienna style or Bohemian style), the Kubelik performance is at best in the third movement. Scherchen, Tennstedt studio,Boulez has some good ideas but only convince the minority.
   There are still some great performance out there, Bernstein DG, Kubelik audite, Tilson Thomas, Barbirolli, Horenstein, Tennstedt LPO live. Maybe I am an old-school  man when choosing Kubelik, Scherchen
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 11, 2012, 01:32:13 PM
Three of my Top 10 have bitten the dust. Maazel, Rattle and Tennstedt gone  >:(  You people are cruel.

;D :D ;D


Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 11, 2012, 01:34:01 PM
Quote from: trung224 on September 11, 2012, 01:30:30 PMSome classics like Bruno Walter or Kubelik are only great when you hear the whole thing, because they capture some unique character (Vienna style or Bohemian style)

That's very much true - and I didn't really mean so much that the samples were great - just that the performances are. This, of course is the problem with these blind listenings - one really ought to hear the whole thing in order to judge, but that would take a huge amount of time. In shorter works, like Gaspard de la nuit, though, it would work very well.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on September 11, 2012, 01:36:26 PM
Tennstedt out?  Wow.  My first in that group.  I am a winner!   >:D $:) 0:) :P :-\ 8) :o :D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on September 11, 2012, 01:37:53 PM
I erred in thinking C8 would be Boulez, but figured out the Ancerl and Kondrashin orchestras successfully (albeit whiffing on the actual conductors).

Really curious as to the ID of C8, and disappointed at the lack of love for Scherchen. Also, I'm frankly shocked the one I disliked so much was Tennstedt.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 11, 2012, 01:38:59 PM
Anyway, my votes match amazingly well with the results:
6. C7
7. C1
8. C3
9. C4
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 11, 2012, 02:14:09 PM
Interesting results, some famous recordings have already been left out....Maazel, Rattle, Walter, Boulez, etc. I'm sorry the Tennstedt hasn't passed the turn, I was very curious to listen to it!
I'm really looking forward to the second round! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 11, 2012, 02:22:38 PM
Thanks, Daniel, for all your hard work putting this together for our amusement!

Five surprises for me, more or less:

(1) I liked what I heard of Norrington, ranking it second in Group A. I've never heard it before but will definitely give it a listen in the near future.

(2) I ranked Walter's Columbia recording as just a notch below the best in Group C. This is one of my favorite "Golden Age" M1s. To be fair, I thought C was the strongest group, so a notch below the best of the best is still pretty good.

(3) I ranked Kubelik's DGG recording as one of the worst in group B. This is surprising because I rather like his Audite recording.

(4) I rated Tennstedt highly in a strong group, C. That means it will join Norrington as worth hearing in full.

(5) Perhaps the biggest surprise for me is that I rated Boulez so low (4th in group A). My notes suggest that I was mostly put off by poor sound quality...odd, because there's nothing wrong with the SQ on my CD of this recording and it is one of my favorite 1sts! I remember not liking much of anything in that group, especially at first, so maybe I wasn't in a very receptive frame of mind that day. (Come to think of it, your clips of his 6th didn't please me, either, and I thought the sound was muddled on that one, too -- yet it's one of my favorite 6ths and I have no trouble with the SQ when playing the CD.  Go figure!)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidW on September 11, 2012, 02:29:47 PM
I can't believe that the legendary Kubelik recording has already been eliminated!  Now I wish that I had participated, maybe I could have stopped this atrocity from happening.

Carry on. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 11, 2012, 02:47:23 PM
Great to read all of your responses! :)

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 11, 2012, 02:22:38 PM
Thanks, Daniel, for all your hard work putting this together for our amusement!

Five surprises for me, more or less:

(1) I liked what I heard of Norrington, ranking it second in Group A. I've never heard it before but will definitely give it a listen in the near future.

(2) I ranked Walter's Columbia recording as just a notch below the best in Group C. This is one of my favorite "Golden Age" M1s. To be fair, I thought C was the strongest group, so a notch below the best of the best is still pretty good.

(3) I ranked Kubelik's DGG recording as one of the worst in group B. This is surprising because I rather like his Audite recording.

(4) I rated Tennstedt highly in a strong group, C. That means it will join Norrington as worth hearing in full.

(5) Perhaps the biggest surprise for me is that I rated Boulez so low (4th in group A). My notes suggest that I was mostly put off by poor sound quality...odd, because there's nothing wrong with the SQ on my CD of this recording and it is one of my favorite 1sts! I remember not liking much of anything in that group, especially at first, so maybe I wasn't in a very receptive frame of mind that day. (Come to think of it, your clips of his 6th didn't please me, either, and I thought the sound was muddled on that one, too -- yet it's one of my favorite 6ths and I have no trouble with the SQ when playing the CD.  Go figure!)

My pleasure, Dave! Many thanks again for doing all three of the groups! Very interesting post! :)

Right, both of the links for Round 2 have now been sent out. Is the voting deadline of the 24th September fine with everyone?
Happy Voting! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 11, 2012, 07:17:46 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 11, 2012, 02:29:47 PM
I can't believe that the legendary Kubelik recording has already been eliminated!  Now I wish that I had participated, maybe I could have stopped this atrocity from happening.

Carry on. :)
No worries, Dave--it was the 1960s DGG recording that was eliminated, not the Audite one from '79, and after sampling the beginning and end of the first movement only.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 11, 2012, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 11, 2012, 01:32:13 PM
Three of my Top 10 bite the dust. Maazel, Rattle and Tennstedt gone  >:(  You people are cruel.

;D :D ;D


Sarge
AH, but you actually did well. Only 30% are gone from your top 10 while 50% were dismissed.

I'm not surprised about the Kubelik (not in a group I heard). It has problematic sound and won't do well in an exercise like this (as it showed).

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 12, 2012, 12:43:12 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 11, 2012, 03:40:40 PM
It has all been very good, but...
Unfortunately, don't be surprised if I lose interest in this, if momentum is lost even from a steady rate.  For some reason I expected to see the results, finito, or at least move on quickly to the next hearing.  Two weeks until the next round...it is like being in a Grand Prix season.

This is the universe's way of teaching you patience, John  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 12, 2012, 12:50:41 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 11, 2012, 09:00:22 PM
AH, but you actually did well. Only 30% are gone from your top 10 while 50% were dismissed.

I didn't expect Maazel or Rattle to do well. I love them but they are terribly mannered interpretations (which is, of course, one reason they appeal to me). I am pleased that hearing Rattle and Tennstedt blind confirmed my good opinion of them (they are both in my personal Top 10).

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on September 12, 2012, 07:12:29 AM
Great job Daniel. I am listening to round 2 now as I type.

Looking back on my notes and the round 1 results, I liked B3 (Mehta) and C7 (Walter), but pity they did not made the cut.

As a sidebar exercise I tried to collate together the posted comments for each piece, hoping to learn something definitive about how one should approach the first movement. I've not succeed as it was hard to reconcile some vast differences of opinion. Ironically it is these differences that make the blind comparison really interesting.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 12, 2012, 08:33:41 AM
Quote from: Beale on September 12, 2012, 07:12:29 AM
Great job Daniel. I am listening to round 2 now as I type.

Looking back on my notes and the round 1 results, I liked B3 (Mehta) and C7 (Walter), but pity they did not made the cut.

As a sidebar exercise I tried to collate together the posted comments for each piece, hoping to learn something definitive about how one should approach the first movement. I've not succeed as it was hard to reconcile some vast differences of opinion. Ironically it is these differences that make the blind comparison really interesting.
Just as differences in our points of view "make" or enable us to see and value different things in a painting or book, so our various life experiences condition different responses to music. If we all brought exactly the same perspective to bear on any work of art (or life situation), none of us would learn a thing. This is the glory of true diversity, that it enables each of us to learn and grow by experiencing things though eyes and ears that differ from our own.

Of course, this blessing requires that we be open to experiencing others' points of view. If we're caught up in ego, in fear, in having to "prove" that we're right and everyone else is wrong, then we make it all but impossible for us to understand and benefit from others' experience.

When we see how desperately our egos cling to mere matters of taste, defining ourselves as "other" and "better" by reference to trivialities like a preference for prominent flugelhorns in a performance of a musical work, is it any wonder we cling even more tenaciously to prejudices where life and death issues are at stake?

I value the opportunity for these blind hearings. They reduce the effect of my prejudices, thus open me to hearing what I otherwise might not. I've already benefited in round one not by having my dislike for Scherchen's M1 "confirmed," but by having my mind opened to considering Norrington and reconsidering Tennstedt.

So I agree that the differences are what make things interesting!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 12, 2012, 08:53:15 AM
I am really glad that have enjoyed the first round! Enjoying reading your feedback! :)

Quote from: Scots John on September 11, 2012, 03:40:40 PM
It has all been very good, but...
Unfortunately, don't be surprised if I lose interest in this, if momentum is lost even from a steady rate.  For some reason I expected to see the results, finito, or at least move on quickly to the next hearing.  Two weeks until the next round...it is like being in a Grand Prix season.  Except I like to keep going when the race starts.  Being told to switch to fuel mix C and not go too fast...I'll just pull into the pits and find another team.   :-[  It seems I have misunderstood the structure of this process.
How long can it take to listen to an hour of music?
I am sure there is a way or other ways for this process to be streamlined.   :(

John, thank you for posting your honesty concerning the proposed voting deadline. I tend to think that 2 weeks is a good time, as some people are so busy that they can only manage doing it at the last moment, but also the people who have more time and do their first group earlier can do multiple groups if they wish. I must say, John, I am amazed at how quickly you can complete these comparison groups! Doing the final round for the Strauss in just a few hours, and all groups for M1 very quickly too! The deadline shall be more extended for the final round, in which I hope we'll be able to compare the top 5 of the whole piece. (I'll be asking you about that when we get close to the final round)
However, if you really are this unhappy about this deadline, John, I'm happy to move it forward. It's just whether everybody else is too. How about the 22nd, everyone?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: jlaurson on September 12, 2012, 08:55:35 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 12, 2012, 08:33:41 AM...If we're caught up in ego, in fear, in having to "prove" that we're right and everyone else is wrong, then we make it all but impossible for us to understand and benefit from others' experience.

When we see how desperately our egos cling to mere matters of taste, defining ourselves as "other" and "better" by reference to trivialities like a preference for prominent flugelhorns in a performance of a musical work, is it any wonder we cling even more tenaciously to prejudices where life and death issues are at stake?

Ah, I'm loving this post. Right on! And even awareness of the above does not inoculate one against this defect.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 12, 2012, 08:56:30 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 12, 2012, 08:53:15 AM
How about the 22nd, everyone?
Okay by me. How about sending out links to both groups for we who are interested?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 12, 2012, 09:01:35 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 12, 2012, 08:55:35 AM
Ah, I'm loving this post. Right on! And even awareness of the above does not inoculate one against this defect.
Aye. As Tim Groseclose noted in his recent book, Left Turn, we usually deceive ourselves in thinking that knowing we're biased innoculates us, because we underestimate the bias and have no idea how deeply it pervades our value system, how thoroughly it filters our perceptions, and how insidiously it conditions our conceptions.

And a hearty "Good day!" to you, Jens!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 12, 2012, 09:13:01 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 12, 2012, 08:53:15 AMHow about the 22nd, everyone?

Choose any date you want, Daniel. I'm easy. I'll have my vote in with seconds to spare, no matter if the day comes sooner or later  :D


Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 12, 2012, 09:26:30 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 12, 2012, 09:13:01 AM
Choose any date you want, Daniel. I'm easy. I'll have my vote in with seconds to spare, no matter if the day comes sooner or later  :D


Sarge

haha ;) Thanks, Sarge! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: jlaurson on September 12, 2012, 09:31:42 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 12, 2012, 09:01:35 AM
Aye. As Tim Groseclose noted in his recent book, Left Turn, we usually deceive ourselves in thinking that knowing we're biased innoculates us, because we underestimate the bias and have no idea how deeply it pervades our value system, how thoroughly it filters our perceptions, and how insidiously it conditions our conceptions.

And a hearty "Good day!" to you, Jens!
off topic:

It's true whether we turn left or right, of course, but true it certainly is. And even when you realize that your political or spiritual biases and choices inform your life down to what coffee you buy or which shade of lipstick or at which supermarket we buy it, or which restaurants we chose, you are still fooling yourself to think you can look above or beyond these biases.
And because they are much stronger than anything that an argument based on or appealing to facts could change, we ought not be surprised that we've gone that way in US politics to "a netherworld of post-truth politics" as The Nation editor Katrina vanden Heuve said. (Perhaps the only enlightened thing I've read/heard from her... even though of course she means: THEM, rather than US, which makes it less enlightened.)

Speaking of KvH -- do you ever watch Real Time with Bill Maher (not Mahler)? It's smart, which is good, it's left, which is fine, and it had David Simon (producer of HBO's Treme [whatever that is]) on -- who was the epitome of level-headed reason personified in the last show.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on September 12, 2012, 01:48:35 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 12, 2012, 08:53:15 AM
I am really glad that have enjoyed the first round! Enjoying reading your feedback! :)

John, thank you for posting your honesty concerning the proposed voting deadline. I tend to think that 2 weeks is a good time, as some people are so busy that they can only manage doing it at the last moment, but also the people who have more time and do their first group earlier can do multiple groups if they wish. I must say, John, I am amazed at how quickly you can complete these comparison groups! Doing the final round for the Strauss in just a few hours, and all groups for M1 very quickly too! The deadline shall be more extended for the final round, in which I hope we'll be able to compare the top 5 of the whole piece. (I'll be asking you about that when we get close to the final round)
However, if you really are this unhappy about this deadline, John, I'm happy to move it forward. It's just whether everybody else is too. How about the 22nd, everyone?

I apologise for my impatience and kind of childishness.  Aye, anytime as Sarge says.  I apologise to everyone also, as I have no mind whatsoever to alter the perception of this thread.  I shall remove my silly post.    :D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 13, 2012, 02:42:40 PM
Quote from: Scots John on September 12, 2012, 01:48:35 PM
I apologise for my impatience and kind of childishness.  Aye, anytime as Sarge says.  I apologise to everyone also, as I have no mind whatsoever to alter the perception of this thread.  I shall remove my silly post.    :D

Don't worry at all, John! :)

Right, let's all see if we can make it for the 20th everyone, which gives us a week. If you ever need extra time, please don't hesitate to let me know! Happy Voting everyone! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on September 13, 2012, 07:04:42 PM
Group X!

A1:
trio: I like the schmaltz and schmooze, but the slow pace makes it feel a little low-key instead of over-the-top. The sound is really terrible, but I don't grade based on sound.
scherzo: much brisker, like making up for lost time! But a little jarring.
funeral march: love that they use a single bass. I actually found this portion very impressively balanced and judged.
Rating: 6.5/10;

A4:
trio: again very relaxed in pace, with a bit less of the ear-raising tempo ebb-and-flow that was in A1. But I like the way it grows noticeably waltzier as it goes along; this feels a bit more put-together.
scherzo: love the French horn's return to the scherzo; plus, though this feels the tiniest bit stiff, the tempo's close to my ideal. Good wind playing.
funeral march: single bass scores points again; it's a lot faster. The instruments' entrances are good, but I do wish for a bit of a less hectic pace. Great prominence of the harp. Oh, I looove how the violins enter after 16:40. From that moment on the performance rises in my books.
Rating: 7/10;

B6:
trio: this! this is how it's done! Excellent oboe, butter-melting strings, someone coughing but I don't care. I ranked this recording 8 out of 8 at the first round, and now I'm thinking of ranking it in my top three. Very odd. Maybe could do with the slightest jolt of energy in the latter half.
scherzo: the horns are a bit suspect at a couple moments, but this is how I like to hear the scherzo done.
funeral march: full bass section - and an inaudible timpani! I could barely hear the drum at 50% volume (when I usually listen around 30%). The bassoon work here coupled with the oboe in the trio is making me think this is an orchestra with great winds. Hmm after the 25 mark I start enjoying this, although the percussion is again muted at the first clarinet episode. Actually the clarinets are too. I want to score at least one of these lower than 6 or higher than 7!!
Rating: 7/10;

B7:
trio: now we've got one that's unusually brisk and breezy. Okay, so it's probably too brisk. Gosh. Am I picky? I feel like I'm rejecting all the bears' porridges! One of these has to be juuust right, right?!
scherzo: well, that's certainly, uh, fast! in fact, there's a carryover effect to...
funeral march: ...where I was really made seasick by the transition from that blinding fastness to this. I need much more of a palate cleanser. That said, good on them for using one bass and for not going insanely fast like I expected. The second movement gets a score of 3, the third gets a score of 8, which averages to 5.5. Ouch.
Rating: 5.5/10;

C5:
trio: respect it very greatly. The CD rip seems to be a lower quality than before? Super-compressed. But I hear very good string playing and an ever-so-gentle tugging and pulling along by the conductor. Feels natural and restful. Like.
scherzo: simply perfect. I'm not jumping up to clap, but I might with CD-quality sound.
funeral march: yeah I want C5 in the finals. Great bass solo, and though the sound quality compromises the oboes, the klezmer episode seems to be handled well. I'm actually left with a sense of Respect and Competence more than passion and genius and insane emoting.
Rating: 9/10;

C8:
I was really hoping this reading would sweep me off my feet, the way I got super-excited by it in Round 1. But instead it was more like "do no wrong, be crisp and clean and make no mistakes." No feet put wrong anywhere. I liked it, but didn't get chills. I want to hear the finale from this group, though, for they play very well indeed.
Rating: 8/10;

Rankings: C5, C8, B6, A4, A1, B7
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: eyeresist on September 13, 2012, 07:16:07 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 13, 2012, 07:04:42 PMB6:
trio: this! this is how it's done! Excellent oboe, butter-melting strings, someone coughing but I don't care. I ranked this recording 8 out of 8 at the first round, and now I'm thinking of ranking it in my top three. Very odd. Maybe could do with the slightest jolt of energy in the latter half.
scherzo: the horns are a bit suspect at a couple moments, but this is how I like to hear the scherzo done.
funeral march: full bass section - and an inaudible timpani! I could barely hear the drum at 50% volume (when I usually listen around 30%). The bassoon work here coupled with the oboe in the trio is making me think this is an orchestra with great winds. Hmm after the 25 mark I start enjoying this, although the percussion is again muted at the first clarinet episode. Actually the clarinets are too. I want to score at least one of these lower than 6 or higher than 7!!
Rating: 7/10;

C8:
I was really hoping this reading would sweep me off my feet, the way I got super-excited by it in Round 1. But instead it was more like "do no wrong, be crisp and clean and make no mistakes." No feet put wrong anywhere. I liked it, but didn't get chills. I want to hear the finale from this group, though, for they play very well indeed.
Rating: 8/10;

Rankings: C5, C8, B6, A4, A1, B7

Very interesting assessment, though from your detailed reviews I'm surprised you put C8 before B6.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on September 14, 2012, 06:17:17 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 13, 2012, 07:16:07 PM
Very interesting assessment, though from your detailed reviews I'm surprised you put C8 before B6.
I felt bad for C8 because I got caught up working on something and realized I wasn't paying as close attention. I might go back to C8 and B6 and do a head-to-head and revise my rankings.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: classicalgeek on September 14, 2012, 09:32:29 AM
I'm a spectator rather than a participant this time - after signing up for the Strauss/ASZ comparison and failing to do any listening at all :-[, I figured I'd sit this one out.  But as always, the results are interesting!  Kubelik and Tennstedt in particular surprise me as not making the first cut.  The two recordings I uploaded for Daniel to use (which shall remain nameless :D) are still in the running.  Some of my other favorites (Bernstein II, Ozawa/Boston, Solti/Chicago) are either still alive or not part of the comparison.  I shall be watching the next round with interest! 
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 14, 2012, 09:45:39 AM
Quote from: classicalgeek on September 14, 2012, 09:32:29 AMSome of my other favorites (Bernstein II, Ozawa/Boston, Solti/Chicago) are either still alive or not part of the comparison.  I shall be watching the next round with interest!

Ozawa and Lenny are two of my favorites also. The other day I was surprised to see I had no Solti M1 in my collection. I thought I had an LP with the LSO performance, but no, (unless I've misplaced it; a distinct possibility). Anyway, I ordered the Chicago from JPC. Should be in my hands tomorrow or Monday.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 15, 2012, 04:52:14 AM
Thank you for your vote, Brian! Very interesting! :)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 14, 2012, 09:45:39 AM
The other day I was surprised to see I had no Solti M1 in my collection. I thought I had an LP with the LSO performance, but no, (unless I've misplaced it; a distinct possibility). Anyway, I ordered the Chicago from JPC. Should be in my hands tomorrow or Monday.

Sarge

That Chicago Solti M1 is one of my favourites, Sarge! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 15, 2012, 05:09:56 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 15, 2012, 04:52:14 AM
Thank you for your vote, Brian! Very interesting! :)

That Chicago Solti M1 is one of my favourites, Sarge! :)

It arrived this morning. I haven't listened to the whole yet but did spot check a few of my favorite bits (like the end of the first movement, the beginning of the third) and was quite pleased.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidW on September 15, 2012, 05:14:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 15, 2012, 05:09:56 AM
It arrived this morning. I haven't listened to the whole yet but did spot check a few of my favorite bits (like the end of the first movement, the beginning of the third) and was quite pleased.

Sarge

I really like it, and as you know I'm not a Solti fan.  His aggression is still musical in this symphony and it works.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 15, 2012, 05:46:03 AM
My practice in these has been to listen to each group one time through with brief pauses between selections to finish my notes & clear my aural palate. I hide their identities until I've heard them all. I feel this procedure lets me make somewhat fair comparisons among the selections in each set. Unfortunately my listening session for Group Y yesterday got interrupted after the 4th selection for a couple of hours.

No one selection appealed to all my preferences. All fell short in one or several areas: (1) tempo & rhythm, (2) failing to deliver a slightly sinister character in Frère Jacques, (3) missing the rustic bumptious character of the ländler, or (4) not getting the klezmer music's ethnic quirkiness.

Rankings from most liked to least liked:

X - B7, C5, B6, C8, A4, A1
Y - B8, A8, B1, A5, C2, C6

Notes:
QuoteGroup X
6 A1—Don't like the sound quality, don't like the hesitations, no flow, ridiculously slow and self-conscious, ländler self-important instead of jaunty, better as it speeds up. Don't like tone of drum, tempo of FJ or character (neither somber nor sinister, just blandly square), tempo & timing awful in klezmer, same self-conscious hesitations, then pushing toward grandness, of all things!
5 A4—Way too slow, hesitations and swoops are awful, plucked strings too prominent, deadly dull beginning (can it possibly get worse?). Awful ländler, square, as if by the numbers and taking itself much too seriously, FJ quick but at least the tone ain't pretty, still bland but better than previous version—more a galumph than a dirge, however. Klezmer sucks, what's with that awful flute, sounds like a military band trying to play ethnic. Hard to tell if this is worse than the previous one, both pretty poor samples.
3 B6—Still too slow, but more characterful, hesitations not so exaggerated, almost lilting, gets better as it goes. Ländler not as rustic as I'd like, nice sense of whirling finish. Basses (!) a giveaway, I like it even though it lacks the macabre sense I prefer, good tempo and the full sound brings something nice and different to this passage, beautifully judged pivot to klezmer, a bit pretty but at least has more rhythmic feel for this music than the preceding samples
1 B7—Better tempo, lilting waltz, lovely timbre from the winds, this is really rather lovely, best in group so far, fine orchestra. Ländler a bit big but better tempo, could speed up more at end. Drum good, FJ tempo good, character dirge-like but without preferred sinister quality, terrific playing from the winds, good balances, lovely wistful turn and great gradual acceleration to klezmer music, still not as jauntily syncopated as I prefer. Close between this and preceding sample, neither ideal but both good.
2 C5—Lovely lilt, nice phrasing, characterful winds, more reverie than wistfulness but it works. Fine swing into landler, great rhythm, would like more sustained acceleration but still okay. Like FJ balances and tempo, a dirge, yes, but still lacking that macabre element, nice turn but would like more sustained gradual acceleration, bit more street band flavor but still less than ideal. Hard to choose between this and previous one.
4 C8—hesitation verging on excessively self-conscious, tempo a bit slow and square, not so much lilt, focus on beauty rather than character (?), orchestra very good. Ländler too big, acceleration nice, FJ lovely but not characterful, like the understated turn, but all still a bit too pretty, especially klezmer, should accelerate more, needs jauntiness and squawk!

Group Y
4 A5—starts a bit drowsy & lackluster, no sense of playfulness, of wistfulness, more lethargic than lingering. The ländler is leaden, not jaunty. Brother Jack's a bit tired, too, not sinister. No complaints about the orchestra. Not bad, but not stirring, either. The klezmer is leaden, too.
2 A8—gentle and lilting, nice hesitations, conveys wistful reverie, swings without breaking the mood, orchestra is lovely, strings delicate, slightly folksy, accelerates properly, good but not perfect. Father Jack more moody than sinister, love the round, each voice keeping the character, it's a pretty straight funeral march, wants more wit. Klezmer's better than first sample, too, but more straight than biting. Overall better but not ideal.
3 B1—similar to previous, not brilliant but fine enough...nice thumping rustic lilting ländler, verging on frantic. Balance de-emphasizes drumbeat but FJ still not sinister, flute better in previous one, like the gradual acceleration & character of the klezmer music but still a bit short of ideal funkiness, drawn out a bit at end
1 B8—like opening lilt, wistful waltz, graceful, like accents, good swing into thumping ländler, still a bit short of character, like acceleration and almost rastiness at end. FJ still not ideal but nice tempo & balance, drawn out entry to klezmer leads to nice clunkiness, still short of ideal (all of these so far are just a bit too pretty and tame to really get the feel of that).
Got interrupted.  A couple of hours later:
5 C2—Don't like rhythm as well, strange clarinet timing. Whole thing's a bit heavy-handed, pushing instead of flowing landler ... too much in this version is too BIG. FJ too straight, lacks character, klezmer off, too. Falls short rhythmically and characterwise overall, even though the orchestra plays well.
6 C6—Too much horn, awfully slow start, tempo too slow, no lilt, deadpan. Ländler Big (not ballsy!), foursquare, just speeding up, not whirling pell-mell. FJ like before, straight, lacking character. Dull. Even squawks are dull. Klezmer? What klezmer? Sounds like the country club band playing, not Jewish street musicians in 19th C. Bohemia!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 15, 2012, 06:13:36 AM
Thank you for your votes for both groups, Dave! Very interesting comments! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on September 15, 2012, 06:30:07 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 15, 2012, 05:46:03 AM
No one selection appealed to all my preferences. All fell short in one or several areas: (1) tempo & rhythm, (2) failing to deliver a slightly sinister character in Frère Jacques, (3) missing the rustic bumptious character of the ländler, or (4) not getting the klezmer music's ethnic quirkiness.
I'm very glad to agree with you on this, and many of our comments on Group X are similar. Perhaps foolishly, I expected to find at least one recording where everything was played to my taste, but that was true of none: in fact many of them I liked in one movement and disliked in the other. That's gonna make it hard for me to decide on a personal "reference" recording, once I've started listening this closely! Don't tell me I have to conduct this thing myself  8)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 15, 2012, 06:47:17 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 15, 2012, 06:30:07 AMThat's gonna make it hard for me to decide on a personal "reference" recording, once I've started listening this closely!

Now you know why I have 31 versions  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: eyeresist on September 16, 2012, 06:09:20 PM
I ran my own mini-survey over the weekend and posted my results (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg659880.html#msg659880) in the Mahler thread. It's not a symphony I listen to often, so I think my aural palette was fairly fresh. I found my results quite surprising.... I wonder if my winners are in this contest?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on September 18, 2012, 10:01:09 AM
I have to admit it was tough judging Part 2 Group X. The pieces are actually quite close to each other, and there wasn't much in it. Yet I felt none of them got everything perfect. Ranking from most liked to most disliked.

Ranked 1: C5. This was well played and had most things right, but the sound quality let it down a little. The trio tempo was fine, and the landler ending not over the top. Did not like the brass at the end there. The march had the right mood and colour.

Ranked 2: B7. Very close ranking to C5 and had superior sound. Trio spirited and fun. The colourful march just lack that last degree of solemn.

Ranked 3: B6. Nice smooth waltz, but the landler needs a little more country rowdiness and drunkenness. The best funeral march of the lot, I found the mood perfectly judged.

Ranked 4: C8. The trio was a bit stiff and not quite engaging. Interesting playing of the march and use of colour, but could do with more solemn mood.

Ranked 5: A1. The trio playing was actually nice but the tempo was too deliberate. Trying too hard to be noble, and the mannerism robbed the feel of a dance. The funeral march felt too smooth, lacks a brooding mood.

Ranked 6: A4. The trio waltz is really drawn out in a laboured fashion. While this creates great contrast with the explosive landler ending, I am not sure I appreciate this balance. Again the march just didn't have the right mood. The terms perfunctory comes to mind.

Wow that was tiring.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 18, 2012, 12:27:08 PM
Thank you for your vote, Beale! Very interesting! :)

The earlier voting deadline is in 3 days, do you think you would be able to get your vote in before then? It can be extended! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 19, 2012, 12:16:36 PM
Group Y

A5. I liked this much better in this round. Decent opening but, still, the climax leaves a lot to be desired, just as the first round climax did. The opening of the third movement is as ominous as any I've heard and I liked it a lot. It was a toss up whether this or B8 had the best performance of it. But the conductor's inability to create excitement when excitement is called for is a real drawback and killed it for me. But because the third movement was so good, it ranks higher for me than C2.
 
A8. Lovely, idyllic opening, with an exciting climax. Third movement more lyrical than it probably should be, little sense of foreboding. Best second movement of all of them, though.

B1. Nice beginning, though not as characterful as A8's and sudden tempo changes sound unintegrated. Good drums in the climax. Third movement a bit too jaunty for my taste.

B8. Probably the best third movement.  It's a little scary, if not quite scary enough. But it does have the sheer goofball quality I also like, where sudden tempo shifts are to be encouraged. Opening nice, end of movement OK but not at the top.

C2. Lovely but middle of the road. Nothing really stands out positively or negatively. This was originally higher on my list but at least the others tried different things, even when I didn't like them.

C6. I had a tough time with this round. Almost all the performances were excellent, though none was at the highest peak. Only one performance truly stunk up the joint, and this was it. Soporific beginning. Sounds like a bunch of dead-tired musicians trying to stay alert at 4 in the morning. Third movement bland, no idea is to be had of what to do with the music.

If I had any say in the matter I'd say keep the top five and send only C6 somewhere far away.

Ratings:

1. A8
2. B8
3. B1
4. A5
5. C2
6. C6
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 19, 2012, 01:32:18 PM
Thank you for your vote, Jim! Very interesting comments! :)

If anyone wants a second group, please let me know. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 19, 2012, 08:12:28 PM
I'll have ago at it. When's the deadline? I'm a bit confused.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 20, 2012, 12:49:39 AM
Group X: Mahler's Symphony No. 1 (round 2)
Again, a group of Jekyll and Hyde. First three were weaker, while second half stronger. I liked C8 best overall. It's stylish without going overboard. I also like B7 and C5. It was really hard to decide between them, both having different virtues. I hope all three will get through to the next round. The rest I didn't really like much, though B6 was the best of that bunch.
Ranking: C8, B7, C5, B6, A1, A4

My Rankings:
A1: Is the trio supposed to sound stop and go? It's pretty, but jerky for much of it. Trumpets sound tentative. Ending portion of this sounds out of synch at the start. But when they get going they do produce a beautiful sound.  March –cello sounds out of tune to me. Mood shifts from sad and drawn out to happy and gay.  Again, they have some unison issues. Stylistically, I liked the playing, but too many problems. I always felt on the outside looking in. Ranking:  5

A4: Trio holds to tempo better than first, but drags. Dull. Drags after that too. Too staccato at times (or perhaps being slow drags the spaces out). Some unison and intonation problems from brass. Then they take off practically in the next part (march).  I think the technical term is - Blech.  Ranking: 6

B6: Trio better than first two, though still slow. Perhaps missing some style and a bit labored in moments.  Getting better at least. Funereal sounding – that's better.  More interesting end than the others (Klezmer I guess). Ranking: 4

B7: The trio is a breath of fresh air – finally, much better judged tempo.  This whole section is well judged. But boy they come on like gangbusters at the end there!  Abrupt transition, but at least well played after that (exciting).  March has a natural development and feel to it (reminds me of Frere Jacuqes [oh, I see it is supposed to!]).  Klezmer is not quite as organic as the previous portions. Here's a version with potential.  Ranking: 2

C5: Speedy start, but nicely phrased and styled. Joyful and gentle. Nicely shaped ending section (perhaps could be faster at start of this part, but picks up nicely).  March a bit dull. Klezmer ok – perhaps too much oom pah (meaning it's exaggerated).  If sound was part of my criteria, I would knock this one down further though.  Ranking: 3

C8: Trio is nicely done. Gentle and flowing. Beautiful. Trumpets come in a shade heavy. Abrupt transition, but here it harks back to earlier trumpet and I am less bothered than in B7. Section ends very exciting. March is darker, more ominous.  Nice style to the klezmer, but not overly done.  Ranking: 1
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2012, 04:22:58 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 19, 2012, 01:32:18 PM
Thank you for your vote, Jim! Very interesting comments! :)

If anyone wants a second group, please let me know. :)

Even though I haven't even listened to my first group yet, I would like you to send me the second group too. I should be able to get my votes in before Sunday's (the 22nd?)deadline.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: jwinter on September 20, 2012, 04:47:54 AM
Can I have until the 22nd deadline?  Not sure if I'm going to be able to finish this today...  Thanks!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 20, 2012, 05:07:38 AM
If it is the 22nd, I'll take the other group too.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 20, 2012, 05:21:17 AM
If it's the 22nd, I'll be able to do the one group.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 20, 2012, 10:30:17 AM
Thanks for your vote, Neal! Very interesting comments! I do hope that you may be enjoying the actual work more now? :)

Ok, let's call the voting deadline the 22nd then. Sorry for not being too clear on the deadline to start with....

Will send the other groups to those who requested them now. :)

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 20, 2012, 01:29:24 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 20, 2012, 10:30:17 AM
Thanks for your vote, Neal! Very interesting comments! I do hope that you may be enjoying the actual work more now? :)

Hard to say. I am definitely learning a lot about the piece and the clips focusing on the same bit over and over has been enlightening. This is especially true as they are all so different. This is what is surprising me the most. I didn't feel this to this extent with Debussy's La Mer or Schumann's 4th. But until I hear longer stretches, that is about all I can fairly say. Still, I am getting a lot of this, regardless of the outcome.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 20, 2012, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 20, 2012, 01:29:24 PM
Hard to say. I am definitely learning a lot about the piece and the clips focusing on the same bit over and over has been enlightening. This is especially true as they are all so different. This is what is surprising me the most. I didn't feel this to this extent with Debussy's La Mer or Schumann's 4th. But until I hear longer stretches, that is about all I can fairly say. Still, I am getting a lot of this, regardless of the outcome.

I am glad you are enjoying it, Neal! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 21, 2012, 12:46:59 AM
Group Y: Mahler's Symphony No. 1 (round 2)
What a difficult group. The first choice, C2, was easy. It was the only one I really liked. Picking the next two was hard as they all had something positive and negative. They are quite close and not much separates them, but I chose B1 and C6 for second and third. Interesting for me, I picked C2, which I did not like so much in the first round.  The A group didn't fare well with me either, coming in last for both groups.
Ranking: C2, B1, C6, B8, A8, A5

My Rankings:
A5:  Trio starts a hair speedy. It's a bit cold at times. Trumpets sound wimpy in their bit. But then a nice transition. Still, not as exciting as some. A bit deliberate at times, though they produce a beautiful sound.  March is somber, but drags, with some inconsistent time keeping by the drums early on. But I really like the way they do the transitions – very natural. But just too cumbersome and controlled overall.  Ranking:  6

A8:  Trio nicely shaped, but a trifle restrained and lacking in character. Occasional unison issues.  Never really give a satisfying fullness. Disappointing ending to the section. March seems ponderous. I don't like how they are always playing at the end of the beat (makes the ponderousness more pronounced).  Klezmer unexciting.   Ranking: 5

B1: Trio has more bite in the phrasing, though they push the boundaries of the tempo changes.  Lighter ending passage. This lightness and transparency create a refreshing type of ending. March is better. This Klezmer has more pizzazz than previous versions, though perhaps a bit restrained.       Ranking: 2

B8: Trio feels nimble, then seems to lose energy. Final portion brings it back, but is perhaps a bit labored.  Still, some beautiful harmonic moments. March is labored as well.  Unexpectedly, the Klezmer has a nice lightness to it.    Ranking: 4

C2: Trio sparkles. Finally! Wonderful! Ending not quite as good as the trio, but still exciting.  March is ok.  Klezmer is light on its feet, though I could have used a bit more umpf. Very nicely done – this is the first in this group that stands out in any way.     Ranking: 1

C6: Trio is a bit reserved at first, though has a lovely tenderness to it. Perhaps a bit slow though.  Ending to the section is also slow, though and lacks some detail.  Faster march, but starts a bit out of synch. It's a bit fresher, which I like. Klezmer is crisp.   Ranking: 3
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 21, 2012, 12:57:24 AM
SOme interesting comments. I am happy to see that there is a relative amount of agreement on the X group. Makes me feel that I am hearing the same things as other people even if I disagree about the order. But the Y group - whoa! We have some real differences of opinion there. Will be interesting to see how the next votes go there.

One issue that has come out of these exercises is how much to credit or discredit a recording that is different. For example, let's say there are six versions: 4 play it straight (more typically), 1 is slow (perhaps heavier as well), and 1 is lighter (fleeter). The last two will stand out compared to the first four. I think in earlier comparisons, I was giving weight to that difference for 'taking a chance' or 'doing something different'. But as I have been listening to these excerpts, I have been wondering if I have been giving too much weight to being different? It's not something I will easily resolve I think, though I have been more conscious of the issue for the Mahler 1 blind listening.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 06:56:58 AM
Being different for its own sake? Meh. Being different because the conductor focuses on significant elements intrinsic to the music that others gloss over? Bravo!

Mahler's symphonies are so big and world-encompassing that there's a lot of room for different but valid approaches to them, and the predilections of conductors may be more obvious and telling than with most other composers.  Do we swoon to the excesses of late 19th Century Romanticism? Are we more inclined toward Mahler the Modernist? Or the proto Postmodernist, drawing on everything that's gone before? Do we dance to his rhythmic vitality, swing to his injections of popular folksy tunes, or savor the sweetness of his sophisticated orchestration? Do we see Mahler as the death-obsessed seeker of spiritual certainty, the wandering nature lover, the perpetual outsider striving against prejudice in the capital of Old Europe, the ironic observer of social decay, or the most operatic of symphonists?

Any and all of these attitudes come into play, not just for the conductor shaping the music, but for the listener hearing it as well. Thus some respond with excitement to the more martial, brassy, flamboyant side of the music, taking it straight and reveling in its big bold tuttis. Others melt at the sheer subtle beauty of his more judicious, chamber-music-like use of the orchestra.

Perhaps this is why Mahler speaks to so many as few composers do, and at all stages of life, from the exuberance of youth to the more contemplative time in our later years ... and why so many different approaches to his music bear rich fruit ... and why old farts like Sarge have a hard time choosing favorites and end up with 31 different recordings! 8)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: jwinter on September 21, 2012, 07:20:05 AM
Here are my rambling notes, in order of preference....

A8 -- Top vote for the 2nd time running.  This one has a very nice flowing rhythm to my ears.  It just sounds natural and "right" to me -- I seriously wonder if it's a recording that's sitting somewhere on my shelf, and I'm subliminally recognizing it.

C2 -- Good sound.  Enjoyed the brass.  Perhaps a bit too slow at times, but it does build tension.  FJ lacked atmosphere.

B1 -- A bit too fast, and the brass is too tame.  The beats seem unnatural somehow, stresses and pauses coming where I don't expect them.   Interesting, but not as engaging as the others above.

A5 -- Nicely shaped, but earthbound -- tempos too slow, particularly in the opening.  Horns seem muddy, though that may be the recording or transfer.  What energy it builds seems to dissipate by the end; it lacks drive.

B8 -- Sedate.  Strings underpowered.  Meh.

C6 -- Too slow, the rhythm drags -- this music is supposed to have some dance to it.  I dislike the brass throughout.  FJ nicely dark but lacks character somehow.



Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on September 21, 2012, 07:35:57 AM
I do feel it is very hard to pass judgement without an absolute standard or benchmark.

Lets take group X. Everyone here have placed A1 and A4 last or near last in ranking. It is clear that they sounded slow in the trio, self-conscious, start-stop, dragging. Surely this can't be a case of bad playing, but rather a deliberate artistic decision by the conductor. If Mahler's intent in the trio is a slow noble waltz, then my conjecture is that the conductors of A1 and A4 were trying to emphasize the noble aspect. They did this by creating a feeling of upper-class snobbishness, pretentiousness, self-awareness. Some may not like it (myself included) but I could see its validity. The trick is then to balance the noble with the dance quality of the waltz: Taking this perspective I think B6 was the most balanced trio in group X. Looking back maybe I should have ranked B6 higher.

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 21, 2012, 07:52:39 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 06:56:58 AM
Mahler's symphonies are so big and world-encompassing that there's a lot of room for different but valid approaches to them, and the predilections of conductors may be more obvious and telling than with most other composers.

Precisely. I'm going to use that defense as I present my own somewhat unusual list.

The X group, overall perhaps of better quality than the Y group. Every performance could advance. I felt bad placing the ones I did at the bottom.

I'm one who likes the pushing and pulling of Mahler in a way that would be intolerable in Mozart, or even Wagner. Perhaps it stems from Joseph Losey's film of Death in Venice with its unending use of the Mahler 5th Symphony Adagietto. Indulgent gorgeousness with disease hovering, the strawberries too ripe. Romanticism at the end of its usefulness. Voluptuous decay.

A1 is good example. I didn't detect the sober clarity that hurt the performance in the first round. It pushes and pulls a lot. The only problem I have is the pulling seems a bit arbitrary, just for effect. But I still like it. Decent, if nothing special, opening to the third movement. Nice transition to the second part of the march. It's very high quality. I thought this would rank higher, but it was the first I listened to and it kept dropping as the others revealed even more felicities. Rank: 5.

With A4, we arrive at my own personal paradise. I'm odd man out here. I love A4, though it's pretty clear my vote will not save it; A4 didn't do so well in the first round either. Not sure what it is. Maybe it's the irresistible transition in the trio. Or maybe it's the too-quick-by-half third movement that slowly (or, rather, quickly) builds in stature to the point it sounds like the Godfather on LSD-infused Gefilte fish crashing a funeral march. (I know, I know, absurd metaphor. Jewish Italian? Yet it's what came to mind.) Yes, it's heavy handed but I love the way things start out almost perfunctorily and then grow delirious. It's not how I imagined Mahler should sound but the performance made me throw away those preconceptions. Again, my top choice, but I fear I'm going to have to say goodbye to it here. Rank: 1.

B6.  Nice live performance. Thwack those drums! The best timpani of the bunch.  Wonderful third movement with a tempo that's just a shade fast. Still, a real dirge. Great zing in the violins seemingly coming out of nowhere. Rank: 2.

B7. Well judged. In other words, a bit of a snoozefest. Very well mannered, not vulgar at all. A fatal flaw, the kind of performance that gets well reviewed in respectable music magazines. Good third movement, slower than the others, which I like, and it builds ominously. Clip ends better than it begins. Rank: 6.

C5. Intriguing third movement, a little odder than some of the others. Trio a bit commonplace. Excellent but middle of this particular road. Rank: 4.

C8. Trio immediately caught my attention with its pointed phrasing, but then it seemed to lose the originality with which it was flirting. But it's still beautiful. Great excitement at the end of second movement. Well considered opening of the third movement. Then the conductor tries to take it somewhere but it never completely arrives. Nothing to fault here, it just doesn't take me to strange and wonderful places. Rank: 3.

Ranking.
1. A4
2. B6
3. C8
4. C5
5. A1
6. B7 
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 21, 2012, 08:10:21 AM
Quote from: Beale on September 21, 2012, 07:35:57 AM
If Mahler's intent in the trio is a slow noble waltz, then my conjecture is that the conductors of A1 and A4 were trying to emphasize the noble aspect. They did this by creating a feeling of upper-class snobbishness, pretentiousness, self-awareness.
You may be on to something regarding A1, but I don't really see A4 falling quite into that pattern. A4 seems an odd mix of vulgarity with a certain pride in it all the way through, which is one reason I like it. But I'm speaking in relative terms only. This is formal orchestral music, after all, not a Yiddish folk song.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 09:13:54 AM
Quote from: zauberflöte on September 21, 2012, 07:52:39 AM
I'm one who likes the pushing and pulling of Mahler in a way that would be intolerable in Mozart, or even Wagner. Perhaps it stems from Joseph Losey's film of Death in Venice with its unending use of the Mahler 5th Symphony Adagietto. Indulgent gorgeousness with disease hovering, the strawberries too ripe. Romanticism at the end of its usefulness. Voluptuous decay.

A1 is good example. I didn't detect the sober clarity that hurt the performance in the first round. It pushes and pulls a lot. The only problem I have is the pulling seems a bit arbitrary, just for effect. But I still like it.
The bolded section especially is very nicely put.  A Tennstedt fan...?

It sounds to me as if we're hearing much the same things, but our judgments about what we're hearing differ widely. You like all the "pushing and pulling." I don't. Not when it seems so arbitrary, impeding the flow of the music and calling attention to itself rather than highlighting a delicate turn of phrase, as when lingering over and savoring an exquisite moment before going on.

The latter is how I hear MTT--yet I've seen criticism indicating that some folks hear the former. What's more peculiar is that some who accuse MTT of arbitrary, indulgent pushing and pulling are themselves fans of Tennstedt or Rattle and their sort! 

I, too, like Mahler's heady fin de siècle decadence, but hear Mahler himself presenting it ironically, as the ultimate outsider, reveling a bit in its headiness while at the same time judging it and distancing himself from its artifice, rather than identifying with it as he does with the natural world. It seems to me that many Mahler fans--including some big name conductors--get it absolutely backwards, imagining sarcasm regarding the folk music elements instead of elevating them as an equally valid part of his experience of the musical world.

Here comes the big question: Let's stipulate that a color-blind man's experience of a Matisse is valid, at least within the limitations of his experience and ability.  Is it equal to the experience of a color-visioned man? Especially one schooled in the history and production of fine art painting?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 21, 2012, 12:41:17 PM
Thank you for your votes, very interesting. And thank you also for posting your thoughts about what you like you to hear in Mahler, very interesting indeed! Great posts! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TimH on September 22, 2012, 01:42:22 AM
GROUP Y

1st = A5. 2nd movt: Very sedate pace, but this gives it plenty of room to breathe - elegant, delicate, refined, sleepy, whimsical, charming. (I'm expecting other reviewers to think the slowness is a bit self-indulgent, but it works for me!) 3rd movt: Double bass solo clear and pure, if a little recessed; subtle building up of layers; schmalzy oboes/trumpets with clever variation of speed; beautiful strings.

2nd = C2. 2nd movt: Warm sound, lovely gently swaying lilt. Trumpet trill at end a bit abrasive! 3rd movt: Double bass excellent tone, well positioned; oboes/trumpets quite straight, no bending of speed; nice transparent texture for strings.

Difficult to choose between the next three:

3rd = B8. 2nd movt: Quick, solid, straightforward, keeping it simple. 3rd movt: Smooth and stylish double bass; very slow for oboes/trumpets but then accelerates rapidly; haunting ending.

4th = B1. 2nd movt: tempo just right, strings smooth but strong, effective rubato and sparkling ending. 3rd movt: Rather nasal double bass, excess vibrato a little unattractive, gets it off to a bad start.

5th = A8. 2nd movt: Seemed very fast after listening to A5 and thought could linger more - but certainly not the fastest; firm string tone. 3rd movt: Rather nasal, whiny and sliding around double bass solo; however, what follows is well poised and very effective.

And finally...

6th = C6. 2nd movt: Very very slow!!! Too slow - very static, everything being held up - frustrating - just does not work. 3rd movt: Double bass swells up and down; oboes/trumpets dragging,  ending lacks mystery (but maybe I'm conditioned by the 2nd movt!)

Really, apart from C6, I enjoyed all the performances very much!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 22, 2012, 05:34:16 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 09:13:54 AM
The bolded section especially is very nicely put.  A Tennstedt fan...?

It sounds to me as if we're hearing much the same things, but our judgments about what we're hearing differ widely. You like all the "pushing and pulling." I don't. Not when it seems so arbitrary, impeding the flow of the music and calling attention to itself rather than highlighting a delicate turn of phrase, as when lingering over and savoring an exquisite moment before going on.

The latter is how I hear MTT--yet I've seen criticism indicating that some folks hear the former. What's more peculiar is that some who accuse MTT of arbitrary, indulgent pushing and pulling are themselves fans of Tennstedt or Rattle and their sort! 

I, too, like Mahler's heady fin de siècle decadence, but hear Mahler himself presenting it ironically, as the ultimate outsider, reveling a bit in its headiness while at the same time judging it and distancing himself from its artifice, rather than identifying with it as he does with the natural world. It seems to me that many Mahler fans--including some big name conductors--get it absolutely backwards, imagining sarcasm regarding the folk music elements instead of elevating them as an equally valid part of his experience of the musical world.

Here comes the big question: Let's stipulate that a color-blind man's experience of a Matisse is valid, at least within the limitations of his experience and ability.  Is it equal to the experience of a color-visioned man? Especially one schooled in the history and production of fine art painting?

Lots to discuss here. Why yes, I do like Tennstedt, even Rattle sometimes, though less often. But I don't seek out their performances the way I do others.
I don't like pushing and pulling just for the sake of it; that's one reason I balked at A1 while embracing A4, and why I never cared for Zubin Mehta during his tenure in New York, my birthplace.
I was at an MTT performance of The Mahler 5th. It was exceptional, highly personal but never indulgent the way his mentor Bernstein so often was. MTT also had an extraordinary command over an orchestra that followed his lead almost as if it had been born playing the piece. 

And then there's Lenny himself. I was lucky enough to attend what I'm pretty sure was the last performance he ever gave of the Mahler 2nd, certainly his last with the NY Philharmonic. Most extraordinary first movement I've ever heard, much like the DG recorded version, also with the NY Phil and recorded in the same venue. (Bernstein had a way of making the wretched acoustics of Avery Fisher Hall sound almost wonderful.) Lots of pushing and pulling, with the slowest pace imaginable. The slow tempos hurt in the "Urlicht" and, especially, in the last movement. But that first movement, my goodness! The "look at me do this" quality was ever present but it all led to the kind of emotional experience I seek in the concert hall but only occasionally receive.

As to your statement Mahler was presenting the decadence ironically, I had been subconsciously aware of it but have never heard it expressed so concretely. It strikes me as exactly right. Thanks for that. Mahler, the ultimate outsider, the Austrian Jew who converts to Catholicism just to be able to get work, and then he writes a "resurrection" symphony, of all things.
The FJ third movement of Symphony no. 1 might be the best example of what you talk about, which is why I say, "give 'er all she's got."     

Regarding your Matisse question, we could spend days on it. It's almost unanswerable.
I'll just say this: it would have as much value as the viewer experiencing the painting would give to it, though it might not be of value to a person the viewer is telling the experience to.
The color-blind person, if blessed with imagination, even if ignorant in art history, might see something in the form of the painting that makes it of exceptional value to him/her in a way the educated authority might not even consider important.
I'm reminded of something the Swedish filmmaker Ingmar Bergman once said. Someone came up to him after a showing of one of his films to express how much he enjoyed it, yet his interpretation seemed completely off the mark to Bergman. No matter, Bergman said. "I make my films for use." How a person uses them is his own business.
Opinion shapers will always be out there trying to assert their will. Some will follow, others won't. There are no absolutes in the human experience save one: no one gets out of here alive.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 22, 2012, 06:04:11 AM
Quote from: zauberflöte on September 22, 2012, 05:34:16 AM
Lots to discuss here.
Way cool...thanks for your thoughtful response!

The Matisse question, of course, has no answer...or too many answers. As you clearly recognize, it's not about the answer but about the further questions the question provokes and the understanding that only follows such consideration.

I agree completely about the third movement of the First. From recasting "Frere Jacques" as a dirge to elevating Yiddish street music to the symphony hall, it embodies much that is unique and wonderful and intoxicating about Mahler's music. And it's not surprising that it baffled the elite audiences of his day whereas we post-moderns love it!

P.S. From the curious coincidences department: I'll be attending an MTT/SFS performance of Mahler's 5th this week, along with a new piece by Sam Adams (John Adams's son), Drift and Providence, which I'm especially interested in hearing because Adams is currently writing a piece for my son.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on September 22, 2012, 06:08:30 AM
 Here is my feeling about X group
B6: After hearing the lackluster 1st movement, I don't expect more from this performance, but the clip contained excerpt from 2nd and 3rd movement is great.  Heart-feel Opening, Biting conclusion in movement, and great funeral march. Rank 1
C5: Energetic, somewhat brutal in 2nd movement (strong low brass and percussion), but autonomous in funeral march. Rank 2
A4: very beautiful in deliberate pace. Some nice push and pull. Somewhat I have impressed by the first movement. Rank 3
C8: Beautiful play with some unique and convincing phrasing somewhere. Rank 4
B7: Energetic but too much simple phrasing, leave no memorable. Rank 5
A1: Too slow, understated + the deliberate pace in movement 1 , the result is sleep feeling. :D
  B6>C5>A4>C8>B7>B7>A1
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 22, 2012, 07:18:36 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 09:13:54 AM
Here comes the big question: Let's stipulate that a color-blind man's experience of a Matisse is valid, at least within the limitations of his experience and ability.  Is it equal to the experience of a color-visioned man? Especially one schooled in the history and production of fine art painting?
Too many comments since my last post to address everything I'd like to, so I'll start with this question. My answer is no, it is not equal. But what I cannot determine is whether it is better or worse, or merely different. And this segues beautifully into Frere Jacques. Despite many years of hearing this piece (#1), I totally missed the reference (perhaps it says something about me or the versions I heard, but I'll leave that to the side). And it would have been nice if someone had spelled out what FJ was (spent two pages thinking it was Father Jack or something  :o). But now that I know there is a reference in the music, I don't feel it really adds all that much. Perhaps I am worse than the color-blind man - seeing everything, yet seeing/knowing nothing (or less). This Frere Jacques can be decadent? It can be ironic? Should it be (one or the other or both)?  I think this is one of those times where I stand in front of the Matisse painting and think, "That's nice," and walk on over to the Renoir. Perhaps it is because the song has little meaning for me personally. I don't see decadence, though perhaps irony as a parody of a sorts on the frere jacques theme. But this is what I sometimes dislike about Mahler interpretations - they try to make the music say these things instead of letting the music hint at the possibities. ALthough, it seems I needed a big hammer to see it (Where is Madmahler when you need him!?!).

And what do you mean by pulling and pushing the music? I am not clear quite exactly what you mean.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 22, 2012, 08:53:51 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 22, 2012, 07:18:36 AM
And what do you mean by pulling and pushing the music? I am not clear quite exactly what you mean.
Excessive ritardando or accelerando in a phrase or a mere moment of phrase to highlight it.
Check out the phrase at 4:19 of the following video for an example of excessive slowing down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9_ONIz8XKA

Do you want to be really thrown for a loop? Listen to the last few seconds of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL0-K7kKARQ

Meanwhile, Furtwängler sins in exactly the opposite direction. Again, the very end of the same piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALTQ2Xb5Yaw
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 22, 2012, 09:39:31 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 22, 2012, 06:04:11 AM
P.S. From the curious coincidences department: I'll be attending an MTT/SFS performance of Mahler's 5th this week, along with a new piece by Sam Adams (John Adams's son), Drift and Providence, which I'm especially interested in hearing because Adams is currently writing a piece for my son.

Really? That's great! How did that happen? Wait, are you the David A. Ross who was director of the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 22, 2012, 10:04:29 AM
Thank you for your votes, TimH and trung224. Very interesting comments! And really enjoying this current discussion too! :)

Quote from: zauberflöte on September 22, 2012, 08:53:51 AM
Do you want to be really thrown for a loop? Listen to the last few seconds of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL0-K7kKARQ

Meanwhile, Furtwängler sins in exactly the opposite direction. Again, the very end of the same piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALTQ2Xb5Yaw

Thanks for posting! So different! Never heard the end of Beethoven 9 done like either of the two you posted. Thrilling! :D

Quote from: zauberflöte on September 22, 2012, 09:39:31 AM
Really? That's great! How did that happen? Wait, are you the David A. Ross who was director of the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art?

Certainly, that's great! Please tell us more, Dave! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 22, 2012, 10:58:08 AM
Quote from: zauberflöte on September 22, 2012, 09:39:31 AM
Really? That's great! How did that happen? Wait, are you the David A. Ross who was director of the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art?
Nope, I'm not he...but was a member of SFMoMA for years when I lived by the Bay. (Does that count? ;) )

My son is a 7-string classical guitarist whose group, the Mobius Trio, specializes in new, contemporary music. They're just finishing their first recording, Last Light, and Sam Adams is one of the composers working on pieces for them for next season. You can check out some of their work here: http://www.youtube.com/user/mobiustrio (http://www.youtube.com/user/mobiustrio)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 22, 2012, 11:31:11 AM
Quote from: zauberflöte on September 22, 2012, 08:53:51 AM
Do you want to be really thrown for a loop? Listen to the last few seconds of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL0-K7kKARQ

Meanwhile, Furtwängler sins in exactly the opposite direction. Again, the very end of the same piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALTQ2Xb5Yaw

Quite right, two completely different ends of Beethoven No.9! I'm not very surprised that Furtwängler's interpretation is so fast in the finale, his 1937 recording has the same crazy pace.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 22, 2012, 11:55:28 AM
Quote from: zauberflöte on September 22, 2012, 08:53:51 AM
Excessive ritardando or accelerando in a phrase or a mere moment of phrase to highlight it.

Ah. I understand now. I figured it would be something simple like this.

Quote from: zauberflöte on September 22, 2012, 08:53:51 AM
Do you want to be really thrown for a loop? Listen to the last few seconds of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL0-K7kKARQ

Meanwhile, Furtwängler sins in exactly the opposite direction. Again, the very end of the same piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALTQ2Xb5Yaw

Both pretty horrible in my opinion.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2012, 11:58:33 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 22, 2012, 07:18:36 AMBut now that I know there is a reference in the music, I don't feel it really adds all that much.

In the German version of the round, the lyrics can have a ssinister bent if your imagination works that way....and we know Mahler's did.

Bruder Jakob, Bruder Jakob (or Martin, in Austria)
Schläfst du noch? Schläfst du noch?
Hörst du nicht die Glocken, Hörst du nicht die Glocken?
Ding, dang, dong, Ding, dang, dong.

Why is he still "sleeping" and why can't he hear the bells? The tune, rendered in the minor, turned into a lugubrious march, gives us the answer.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 22, 2012, 12:03:16 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 22, 2012, 11:31:11 AM
Quite right, two completely different ends of Beethoven No.9!
(And both of them lousy.)

Don't know why Furtwängler was in such a hurry. Serious bombing of Berlin didn't start until late '43. (Does anyone else wonder whether he grasped the irony of playing Beethoven's ode to the brotherhood of man at that time and place?)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 22, 2012, 12:28:49 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 22, 2012, 12:03:16 PM
(And both of them lousy.)

Don't know why Furtwängler was in such a hurry. Serious bombing of Berlin didn't start until late '43.

Yes, although the Furtwängler is very good as a whole.
I don't think it was because of the war; if you listen to his 37' recording, he chose the same tempo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjXlY3bRFeo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjXlY3bRFeo)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2012, 12:38:44 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 22, 2012, 12:28:49 PM
Yes, although the Furtwängler is very good as a whole.
I don't think it was because of the war; if you listen to his 37' recording, he chose the same tempo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjXlY3bRFeo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjXlY3bRFeo)

I've always thought the end of the famous '51 Bayreuth Ninth was a shambles--but this one...insane!  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 22, 2012, 12:52:03 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2012, 12:38:44 PM
I've always thought the end of the famous '51 Bayreuth Ninth was a shambles--but this one...insane!  :D

Sarge

What always gets to me in the '51 recording is how the slow-as-molasses tempo in the Adagio causes the orchestra to lose the musical line (or at least barely hold it together).
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 22, 2012, 12:58:12 PM
 ;D

Yes, it almost sounds a neurotic mess.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on September 22, 2012, 01:54:25 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 22, 2012, 12:28:49 PM
Yes, although the Furtwängler is very good as a whole.
I don't think it was because of the war; if you listen to his 37' recording, he chose the same tempo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjXlY3bRFeo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjXlY3bRFeo)

   Furtwängler always take the accelerando at the end of Beethoven 9 or Brahms 4 (but take the heaven slow just before). For me, it makes sense because after the long piece, one need the impressive conclusion and accelerando is the good choice to highlight the triumph (better than ritardando).
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 23, 2012, 04:48:30 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 22, 2012, 12:03:16 PM
(Does anyone else wonder whether he grasped the irony of playing Beethoven's ode to the brotherhood of man at that time and place?)
I'm sure he did. The hall was filled with Nazis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqff1F0Ijn0
That's Goebbels he's shaking hands with.

This is both amazing and obsessive. Someone compiled the finales of every recorded performance by Furtwangler he could find. I had no idea there were so many:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSfZQEWDBCQ
:o
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2012, 05:59:57 AM
I liked them all and have to stop listening and finally make some decisions before my mind descends completely into cognitive dissonance  ;D

1)  B1  Trio beautifully paced with prominent and characterful first chair wind playing. I like the slightly sour bass with the cheesy vibrato at the beginning of the march, and when the bassoon enters, it imitates the bass perfectly. Attention to detail! Mahler wanted an imitation of bad playing here, and this version delivers. Cool. The Klezmer music is played with great contrast to the preceding march in speed and schmaltz.

2)  B8  Another relatively fast trio (nice) but could swoon a little more.  I prefer the greater sense of mystery back to the Scherzo (the horns) in B1. But the movement ends with a great raucous wallop. Wonderful. This march has the greatest sense of the funereal but sounds less ironic than B1. The Klezmer portion is just about perfect.


3)   C6  Lovely slowish Trio with schmaltzy and delicious taffy pulling. I think this is what Mahler should sound like. I like the pace of the Scherzo proper too ( a Landler is supposed to be slow; it ain't a slam dance)  The march is extremely mournful and the Klezmer interjections don't alleviate the mood so much as contribute to it (some great wailing bassoon near the end of the clip). Not enough contrast then? Too serious? Perhaps. But a compelling approach.


4)   C2  For the Trio and Scherzo the same comments as B8 but with some great swooning. Love the end; the trilling trumpets fantasitc! March a shade too fast and the Klezmer not terribly convincing (convincing symphonically but not as village band music). The sound of the recording is less pleasing to me than the other versions in this group

5)  A5  I don't mind slow Mahler, and the Trio is very seductive. But the Klezmer is too tame and doesn't provide enough contrast to the march.

6)  A8  Acceptable as a middle-of-road performance and interpretation. Basically it's just right, I suppose, and I can see it being a favorite of some....but there's less sense of individuality relative to the other versions in this group.



Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2012, 06:28:08 AM
Y group results so far, and they are all over the place!...except for poor C6, which most of you hated. Four last places!

Sarge   TimH     zauberflöte   mc urkneal  jwinter  DavidRoss  trung  lisztianwagner

B1        A5          A8                   C2            A8            B8           B1           A5
B8        C2          B8                   B1            C2            A8           C2          C6
C6        B8          B1                   C6            B1            B1           B8           A8
C2        B1          A5                   B8            A5            A5           A5           B8
A5        A8          C2                   A8            B8            C2           C6           B1
A8        C6          C6                   A5            C6           C6            A8          C2
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 23, 2012, 06:40:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2012, 06:28:08 AM
Y group results so far: results all over the place!...except for poor C6, which most of you hated. Four last places!

Sarge   TimH     zauberföte   mc urkneal  jwinter  DavidRoss

B1        A5          A8                   C2            A8            B8
B8        C2          B8                   B1            C2            A8
C6        B8          B1                   C6            B1            B1
C2        B1          A5                   B8            A5            A5
A5        A8          C2                   A8            B8            C2
A8        C6          C6                   A5            C6           C6

What's even stranger is that those of us who didn't put it in last, put in the top 3 (me and you). I also think we are not so far apart on C2. Had I considered sound, it might have been lower (here we differ in our criteria). Interestingly, we are the most similar this time (or at least least different).
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 23, 2012, 06:44:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2012, 05:59:57 AM
I liked them all and have to stop listening and finally make some decisions before my mind descends completely into cognitive dissonance  ;D
I never would have suspected that too much Mahler was the underlying reason for such widespread irrationality. ;)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2012, 06:28:08 AM
Y group results so far: results all over the place!...except for poor C6, which most of you hated. Four last places!
Your favored B1 is faring well, with 5 out of 6 rankings in the top 3.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2012, 06:49:22 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 23, 2012, 06:40:59 AMInterestingly, we are the most similar this time...

Shocking, isn't it  ;D  I noticed too how close we are (although not twins like zauberflöte and DavidRoss  :D )  I initially had C2 higher, above C6. I kept flip flopping actually. So we're even closer than it appears in the final tally.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2012, 07:00:53 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 23, 2012, 06:44:45 AM
I never would have suspected that too much Mahler was the underlying reason for such widespread irrationality. ;)

;D :D ;D

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 23, 2012, 06:44:45 AM
Your favored B1 is faring well, with 5 out of 6 rankings in the top 3.

And your B8 is doing well too with 4 of 6 in the top 3.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on September 23, 2012, 07:03:47 AM
Group Y ranking
  1. B1
  2. C2
  3. B8
  4. A5
  5. C6
  6. A8
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2012, 07:05:29 AM
Quote from: trung224 on September 23, 2012, 07:03:47 AM
Group Y ranking
  1. B1
  2. C2
  3. B8
  4. A5
  5. C6
  6. A8

I'll add it to my tally above.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 23, 2012, 07:17:41 AM
Thank you very much for your votes! Very interesting indeed! :D

Does everyone who hasn't voted yet think they will be able to post their votes before tonight? (voting deadline) Can be extended if you need it to be.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 23, 2012, 07:34:49 AM
C8
A4
C5
B6
B7
A1
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 23, 2012, 08:35:20 AM
Like in the first round, I extremely enjoyed this group too, such a massive fun!! ;D The choices of tempo in the Scherzo made me be able to recognize B8. I was particularly impressed by the perfect rythm kept in C6, which anyway showed a too marked sound of brass in the finale of the second movement.

In order:
A5
C6
A8
B8
B1
C2
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 23, 2012, 10:17:03 AM
Thank you for your votes, Ilaria and Karlo! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 23, 2012, 11:26:54 AM
Wait forrr meee, pls....  0:) ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 23, 2012, 12:03:34 PM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 23, 2012, 11:26:54 AM
Wait forrr meee, pls....  0:) ;D

Will do, don't worry! :) How long do you think you will need?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 23, 2012, 12:20:31 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 23, 2012, 12:03:34 PM
Will do, don't worry! :) How long do you think you will need?

A couple of hours? :(
I'm working on an article and I must finish at least a part of it... Then listening and giving the 'prizes'...
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 23, 2012, 12:28:04 PM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 23, 2012, 12:20:31 PM
A couple of hours? :(
I'm working on an article and I must finish at least a part of it... Then listening and giving the 'prizes'...

That's absolutely fine. :) I think there are a few more people who haven't posted their votes yet, I shall try and get into contact with them and see how long they will be. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 23, 2012, 12:34:16 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 23, 2012, 12:28:04 PM
That's absolutely fine. :) I think there are a few more people who haven't posted their votes yet,
I hope so. I'm a bit surprised at the relatively small number of participants. Not Mahler fans? Or just not fanatical enough to pursue blind listening to a couple of dozen recorded versions of the same symphony? ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 23, 2012, 02:36:23 PM
Here goes for group Y:

A5>B8>B1>C6>C2>A8
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 23, 2012, 02:45:16 PM
Thank you for your vote, Radu!

Whoever has not placed their vote yet, please do send me a message to let me know when you will be able to post your vote. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 23, 2012, 02:54:21 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2012, 06:49:22 AM
Shocking, isn't it  ;D  I noticed too how close we are (although not twins like zauberflöte and DavidRoss  :D )
Ain't that the damnedest thing? Never even noticed. And David and I have just gotten through a lengthy discussion of how different our tastes are after our wildly divergent views on group X.

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 23, 2012, 06:44:45 AM
I never would have suspected that too much Mahler was the underlying reason for such widespread irrationality. ;)
That must be the reason.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 24, 2012, 02:21:16 AM
Group Y results:

Sarge   TimH     zauberflöte   mc urkneal  jwinter  DavidRoss  trung224  lisztianwagner  johndoe

B1        A5              A8                C2              A8            B8           B1              A5                  A5
B8        C2              B8                B1              C2            A8           C2             C6                  B8 
C6        B8              B1                C6              B1            B1           B8              A8                  B1
C2        B1              A5                B8              A5            A5           A5              B8                  C6
A5        A8              C2                A8              B8            C2           C6              B1                  C2
A8        C6             C6                 A5              C6           C6            A8             C2                   A8


Group X results

Brian  DavidRoss  Beale   mc ukrneal zauberflöte  trung224  North Star  Sarge   xochitl

C5          B7           C5           C8               A4               B6            C8            C8       C5
C8          C5           B7           B7               B6               C5            A4             A1       B6
B6          B6           B6           C5               C8               A4            C5             A4       A1
A4          C8           C8           B6               C5              C8             B6             C5      A4
A1          A4           A1           A1                A1              B7             B7             B6      C8
B7          A1           A4           A4                B7              A1             A1             B7       B7
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 24, 2012, 02:42:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 24, 2012, 02:21:16 AM
Y group results:

Sarge   TimH     zauberflöte   mc urkneal  jwinter  DavidRoss  trung  lisztianwagner  johndoe

B1        A5              A8                C2              A8            B8           B1            A5                  A5
B8        C2              B8                B1              C2            A8           C2           C6                  B8 
C6        B8              B1                C6              B1            B1           B8            A8                  B1
C2        B1              A5                B8              A5            A5           A5            B8                  C6
A5        A8              C2                A8              B8            C2           C6            B1                  C2
A8        C6             C6                 A5              C6           C6            A8           C2                   A8

Fascinating results once again. We are surprisingly similar in the second round too (and again we both picked both A group participants last). Should I be scared? :) Also interesting that niether B8 nor B1 was picked last.

Here's another intersting moment - A5 was picked #1 by 3 of the 9 voters (so far), but the other six did not place A5 in the top 3! Appearance in top 3 (out of 9):
A5: 3
A8: 4
B1: 7
B8: 5
C2: 4
C6: 3 (and the only one not to receive a first place vote)

We did not agree about much. B1 is the only one that looks like it gets through for sure.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 24, 2012, 05:31:53 AM
My choices for the X group. I agree with those who think this group is particularly strong (even though C8 ultimately rules  8) ). I even liked (loved, actually) A1 which the rest of you put at or near the bottom. (David, I enjoyed B7 too. It's just that I liked, marginally, the others more.)

1 - C8

2 - A1

3 - A4

4 - C5

5 - B6

6 - B7


Sarge



Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 24, 2012, 06:27:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 24, 2012, 02:21:16 AM
Group X results

Brian  DavidRoss  Beale   mc ukrneal zauberflöte  trung224  North Star  Sarge

C5          B7           C5           C8               A4               B6            C8            C8
C8          C5           B7           B7               B6               C5            A4             A1
B6          B6           B6           C5               C8               A4            C5             A4
A4          C8           C8           B6               C5              C8             B6             C5
A1          A4           A1           A1                A1              B7             B7             B6
B7          A1           A4           A4                B7              A1             A1             B7
A list of top 3 finishes (out of 8 total):
A1: 1
A4: 4
B6: 5
B7: 3
C5: 6
C8: 5
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 06:36:19 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 24, 2012, 05:31:53 AM
My choices for the X group. I agree with those who think this group is particularly strong (even though C8 ultimately rules  8) ). I even liked (loved, actually) A1 which the rest of you put at or near the bottom. (David, I enjoyed B7 too. It's just that I liked, marginally, the others more.)
Well, Sarge, I don't put a lot of effort into this exercise. I just listen to the sound samples of each set in one sitting, jotting down impressions en route, then "ranking" them only because that's what Daniel asks of us. For all I know, if I listened to the same set over and over, or on another day, my rankings might flip-flop!

I doubt that, however, not least because what I hear seems largely confirmed by the notes you and others share and the fact that my general preferences are unlikely to change over such a short time. They do change over a long period of time, however (even in my 60th year!), given sufficient repeated open-minded exposure, which obviously includes willingness to listen for a recording's virtues and not just for whatever deficiencies might "confirm" my prejudices against it.

Thus, for instance, Daniel's Mahler comparison exercise has re-opened my mind to Tennstedt, whose EMI cycle I just purchased so that repeated listening and familiarization might have the opportunity to sway me toward the appreciation others enjoy. Rattie is probably next. Who knows? If I continue in that direction I might possibly even come to like (gasp!  :o ) Solti. ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 24, 2012, 06:39:47 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 06:36:19 AMappreciation others enjoy. Rattie is probably next. Who knows? If I continue in that direction I might possibly even come to like (gasp!  :o ) Solti. ;)

David, David...that's just crazy talk. Take an aspirin, have a nap...I'm sure this will pass.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 06:42:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 24, 2012, 06:39:47 AM
David, David...that's just crazy talk. Take an aspirin, have a nap...I'm sure this will pass.
Aye...good advice, dude!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 24, 2012, 12:34:11 PM
Thank you for your X Group vote, Sarge! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on September 25, 2012, 12:20:31 AM
  Today I  hear some Mahler 1 performance I have. My favorite performance in blind test is B1, surprisingly it is the old friend, but I have not heard it for years  :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on September 25, 2012, 02:24:30 AM
sorry guys for some reason i thought i still had a day or two before deadline
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 25, 2012, 12:08:55 PM
Quote from: xochitl on September 25, 2012, 02:24:30 AM
sorry guys for some reason i thought i still had a day or two before deadline

Don't worry, do you think you will be able to post your vote by tommorow evening?

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on September 25, 2012, 06:59:32 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 25, 2012, 12:08:55 PM
Don't worry, do you think you will be able to post your vote by tommorow evening?
sure thing
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 26, 2012, 09:39:57 AM
Quote from: xochitl on September 25, 2012, 06:59:32 PM
sure thing

Great! Looking forward to seeing your vote! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on September 26, 2012, 06:46:34 PM
group x:

c5
b6
a1
a4
c8
b7
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 27, 2012, 10:12:43 AM
Thank you for your vote!

Am working out the results right now! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 27, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
Cool! Can't wait to see them! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 27, 2012, 01:44:30 PM
Just worked out the results! What an interesting, exciting top 5 you have chosen!

I shall make sure to post the results in the next few days! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on September 27, 2012, 02:01:10 PM
A few days??  ???
Hope I can hold out that long.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 27, 2012, 02:02:43 PM
Quote from: zauberflöte on September 27, 2012, 02:01:10 PM
A few days??  ???
Hope I can hold out that long.
Sorry!! I think it might have to be Sunday, but I'll post them as soon as possible. Thank you in advance for your patience! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 27, 2012, 02:11:53 PM
Quote from: zauberflöte on September 27, 2012, 02:01:10 PM
A few days??  ???
Hope I can hold out that long.

+1 ;D

I'm simply bursting, hope the Bernstein will pass the turn!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 27, 2012, 02:32:37 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 27, 2012, 02:02:43 PM
Sorry!! I think it might have to be Sunday, but I'll post them as soon as possible. Thank you in advance for your patience! :)
No, thank you, Daniel. We can hold our breath to Sunday.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: jwinter on September 27, 2012, 05:02:46 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 27, 2012, 02:32:37 PM
No, thank you, Daniel. We can hold our breath to Sunday.

Indeed; thanks very much for taking the time to put this together!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on September 27, 2012, 05:17:08 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 27, 2012, 01:44:30 PM
Just worked out the results! What an interesting, exciting top 5 you have chosen!

I shall make sure to post the results in the next few days! :)

Great job madaboutmahler.

I noticed you used the word "interesting" often in describing the rankings and comments. Could you be more specific (elaborate) on what you meant by that? Without further clues I presume "interesting" = "not what you had expected".

Edit - just trying to gain some insights on how we are tracking as participants
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 28, 2012, 12:43:59 PM
Thank you, it's my pleasure! :)

Quote from: Beale on September 27, 2012, 05:17:08 PM
Great job madaboutmahler.

I noticed you used the word "interesting" often in describing the rankings and comments. Could you be more specific (elaborate) on what you meant by that? Without further clues I presume "interesting" = "not what you had expected".

Edit - just trying to gain some insights on how we are tracking as participants


Yes, some of the votes, and indeed the results I find slightly surprising. It's also very interesting to see what people say about recordings that they are known to love/hate when listening to them blind! ;) (you'll see what I mean soon!! ;D )
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 01:37:40 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 28, 2012, 12:43:59 PM
Thank you, it's my pleasure! :)

Yes, some of the votes, and indeed the results I find slightly surprising. It's also very interesting to see what people say about recordings that they are known to love/hate when listening to them blind! ;) (you'll see what I mean soon!! ;D )
Ah...but you must remember the difference between hearing samples out of context and being immersed in a continuous, hour-long unfolding.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 28, 2012, 01:41:39 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 01:37:40 PM
Ah...but you must remember the difference between hearing samples out of context and being immersed in a continuous, hour-long unfolding.

Of course, Dave. So, the final round should be extra interesting, considering we are comparing 5 recordings of the whole work!! (Is everyone happy with that idea? :) )
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 28, 2012, 01:51:26 PM
That would be great. To judge it, listening to the whole piece is always the finest idea in my opinion.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 28, 2012, 02:23:58 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 28, 2012, 01:51:26 PM
That would be great. To judge it, listening to the whole piece is always the finest idea in my opinion.
Indeed - it's the only way to make the comparison reliable, as in small snippets technical aspects are overemphasized and the interpretation may sound odd out of context. Listening to five whole symphonies does take a lot of time, though. One Saturday or Sunday - ruined  ;D
And listening for five hours isn't going to work, as one will inevitable tire of the work, and this will cloud judgement. OTOH, listening on different occasions distorts the results, too.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 02:52:48 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 28, 2012, 02:23:58 PM
Indeed - it's the only way to make the comparison reliable, as in small snippets technical aspects are overemphasized and the interpretation may sound odd out of context. Listening to five whole symphonies does take a lot of time, though. One Saturday or Sunday - ruined  ;D
And listening for five hours isn't going to work, as one will inevitable tire of the work, and this will cloud judgement. OTOH, listening on different occasions distorts the results, too.
Yeah, but if you don't really care about comparing and ranking them, but just in hearing them to see what you like without preconceptions coloring your musical palate, it should be fine spaced out over several days.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on September 28, 2012, 02:55:34 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 02:52:48 PM
Yeah, but if you don't really care about comparing and ranking them, but just in hearing them to see what you like without preconceptions coloring your musical palate, it should be fine spaced out over several days.
Certainly. This, of course is the best thing in these blind comparisons - all too often one can hear in performance something that isn't really there, but previous experiences of the performers cloud one's judgement.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 03:14:48 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 28, 2012, 02:55:34 PM
Certainly. This, of course is the best thing in these blind comparisons - all too often one can hear in performance something that isn't really there, but previous experiences of the performers cloud one's judgement.
Yep. My biases lead me to minimize the flaws and magnify the virtues of that which I'm predisposed to favor, and vice versa for that which I'm predisposed to dislike. With objective material--such as the documented effects of a legislative act and which politicians supported or opposed it--commitment to the facts will overcome prejudices. But with purely subjective material, like musical tastes, the objective facts aren't helpful at all and blind listening may be the best way to recover the objectivity required to overcome our biases.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on September 28, 2012, 11:37:10 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 28, 2012, 12:43:59 PM
Thank you, it's my pleasure! :)

Yes, some of the votes, and indeed the results I find slightly surprising. It's also very interesting to see what people say about recordings that they are known to love/hate when listening to them blind! ;) (you'll see what I mean soon!! ;D )

Great, can't wait for the result. You have the joy of playing Dungeon Master.

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 30, 2012, 06:33:39 AM
Thank you for your feedback! :)

Going to hopefully make a start on the results today, they will be posted tommorow evening at the latest.
Currently listening to selections from the Top 5, what great choices you have made!!!! I think this is going to be a very exciting final round! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 30, 2012, 09:03:55 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 30, 2012, 06:33:39 AM
Thank you for your feedback! :)

Going to hopefully make a start on the results today, they will be posted tommorow evening at the latest.
Currently listening to selections from the Top 5, what great choices you have made!!!! I think this is going to be a very exciting final round! :)

Thank you for your efforts. Anxious to see the restults. Have a nice evening! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 30, 2012, 12:34:01 PM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 30, 2012, 09:03:55 AM
Thank you for your efforts. Anxious to see the restults. Have a nice evening! :)

My pleasure! I shall make sure to post the results tommorow evening. At the moment, I am creating the links for the final 5, you really have chosen very well in my opinion.... ;) I think I've decided my favourite out of the 5.

Thank you, you too, Radu! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 30, 2012, 12:44:26 PM
I'm really looking forward to knowing the results, time is passing too slowly! ;D
Like in this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/v/q030WNZvXrA
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 01, 2012, 10:17:15 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 30, 2012, 12:44:26 PM
I'm really looking forward to knowing the results, time is passing too slowly! ;D
Like in this scene:
Ha! I just watched that Saturday night!

Seeing as how the results so far have already convinced me to acquire Norrington's M1 and both Tennstedt and Rattle's complete cycles, I'm not sure my wallet can stand learning the identities of any more samples that I liked! ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 01, 2012, 10:36:40 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 01, 2012, 10:17:15 AM
Seeing as how the results so far have already convinced me to acquire Norrington's M1 and both Tennstedt and Rattle's complete cycles, I'm not sure my wallet can stand learning the identities of any more samples that I liked! ;)

;D

Results shall be posted within the next few hours!! And the links for the final round shall be sent out just after. Thank you for your patience!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 01, 2012, 10:46:19 AM
I think I just found out who C8 is by mistake, putting the CD on. Cloud nine  0:)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 01, 2012, 10:51:06 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 01, 2012, 10:46:19 AM
I think I just found out who C8 is by mistake, putting the CD on. Cloud nine  0:)

I haven't done the calculations. Don't know if it will go through or not. We'll know soon...unless MAD decides to tease us another day  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 01, 2012, 10:52:24 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 01, 2012, 10:36:40 AMThank you for your patience!

I've been using the waiting period productively: composing odes to Sara (Lethe)  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 01, 2012, 10:53:05 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 01, 2012, 10:46:19 AM
I think I just found out who C8 is by mistake, putting the CD on. Cloud nine  0:)

You'll just have to try and forget! ;)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 01, 2012, 10:51:06 AM
I haven't done the calculations. Don't know if it will go through or not. We'll know soon...unless MAD decides to tease us another day  :D

Sarge

I promise the results will be posted tonight! Just waiting for the links to upload now. Thank you again for your patience! :)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 01, 2012, 10:52:24 AM
I've been using the waiting period productively: composing odes to Sara (Lethe)  ;D

Sarge

;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 01, 2012, 11:00:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 01, 2012, 10:52:24 AM
I've been using the waiting period productively: composing odes to Sara (Lethe)  ;D

Sarge
Is she back?!?!??!?!? God I want her to come back.  :(
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 01, 2012, 11:04:19 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 01, 2012, 11:00:40 AM
Is she back?!?!??!?!? God I want her to come back.  :(

Unfortunately not...but we've been mourning in the Missing Members thread.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 01, 2012, 11:34:41 AM
Maybe if we get up a petition, signed by all of us who miss her.... ;)

Was there a reason she left? Was some jerk nasty to her? (Not me, I hope!) Or did she just get sick and tired of Sarge's constant mooning over her, composing limericks about her love affair with Petterssen and the like...?

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 01, 2012, 11:41:41 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 01, 2012, 10:46:19 AM
I think I just found out who C8 is by mistake, putting the CD on. Cloud nine  0:)
Probably my favorite in round one, good but with just a bit too much emphasis on orchestral beauty at the expense of character in round two. No doubt it's one of my favorite recordings of the piece! Did it make it to round three? (With 3 first place finishes in round two I should hope so!)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 01, 2012, 12:47:26 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 01, 2012, 10:17:15 AM
Ha! I just watched that Saturday night!

Such a masterpiece! ;D The soundtrack is terrific too; the composer, Gottfried Huppertz, took inspiration from Wagner and R.Strauss.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 01, 2012, 02:15:39 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 01, 2012, 11:41:41 AM
Probably my favorite in round one, good but with just a bit too much emphasis on orchestral beauty at the expense of character in round two. No doubt it's one of my favorite recordings of the piece! Did it make it to round three? (With 3 first place finishes in round two I should hope so!)
C8 is probably still the overall leader even though it didn't fare quite as well in round two. I wonder if A4 will survive. I had written it off when proclaiming it my favorite but others came on with votes in the top two or three. I still imagine it's a long shot.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 01, 2012, 02:51:37 PM
Round 2 Results!

12. A1 New York Philharmonic/Leonard Bernstein (Sony/1966)
Only just about making it into Round 2, beating Boulez by just one point, this recording recieved mixed opinions. It was close to the top for some, but others seemed to hate it. Some voters said they found the performance too 'jerky' and the use of so many 'self-conscious hesitations'. Others did admire how enthusiastic and beautiful the performance could be.
[asin]B00000FCKW[/asin]

11. C2 Boston Symphony Orchestra/Seiji Ozawa (DG/1987)
Mainly recieving average votes throughout, this recording was described as 'lovely but middle of the road', with not much to make it stand out. Most thought it lacked atmosphere and that extra bit of magic.
[asin]B00004Z33Z[/asin]

10. B7 Kolner Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester/Gary Bertini (EMI/1991)
Perhaps one of the biggest surprises for me during this comparison so far was when John C so enthusiastically put this as his favourite in Round 1! This recording had quite a few supporters, although some did not enjoy the extreme fast tempi in the 2nd movement.
[asin]B000BQ7BX2[/asin]

09. C6 Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra/Riccardo Chailly (Decca/1996)
This recording did extremely well in Round 1, when voters enjoyed the transparency and beauty of the playing. Some called the playing the most gorgeous out of their selection.  However, in Round 2, nearly all voters were left bored by the extreme slow tempi that Chailly used in the 2nd movement.
[asin]B00092ZALS[/asin]

08. C6 Philharmonia/Guiseppe Sinopoli (DG/1985)
Voters accused this conductor for being unable to generate excitement in the performance, calling the performance 'too controlled', 'slightly too deliberate' and 'cold'. Sinopoli certainly did have some admirers though, who found the performance very natural and clear.
[asin]B00005ONMO[/asin]

07. B6 London Symphony Orchestra/Valery Gergiev (LSO Live/2008)
Another pleasant surprise for me in this comparison was how much Gergiev's performance was liked. Although never quite reaching the top points, this recording was enthusiastically recieved by many voters, who enjoyed the detail, character and lack of exaggeration in the performance. Some occasionally found it too slow and not rustic enough.
[asin]B0017TZ92W[/asin]

06. A4 Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra/Leonard Bernstein (DG/1987)
I put Bernstein Sony (A1) and DG in the same groups for both rounds and it was so fascinating to see how people compared them. I found it quite amazing that so many votes put them right next to eachother , often with the later DG recording being favoured. And many people towards the end of the voting put A4 as their absolute favourite. Some people really disliked this recording, using words such as 'awful' to describe the extremely slow tempi and phrasing. However, as said, this recording did have many supporters who called the recording 'beautiful'. 
[asin]B000001GAC[/asin]

So, that leaves us with:
A8, B1, B8, C5 and C8 to battle it out in the finale!
Links to these whole performances have been sent out. If you have not recieved the links, please let me know as soon as possible! And what's best for everyone concerning the voting deadline? :)

So, what do you think? Surprised?
Happy Voting everyone, hope you are enjoying it! Thank you for everything! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on October 01, 2012, 03:05:38 PM
Sinopoli and Chailly aren't both C6, are they?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 01, 2012, 03:10:41 PM
Oh dear, you have two C6's.
Not bad at all for all the hard work you've been putting in  :)

Amazing. I had A4 at the very top, A1 near the bottom in round two. I suspected A4 was Bernstein but concluded A1 was a Bernstein wannabe. Shows you what I know. All I can say is he improved a lot.
Daniel, when you get to the Fifth you could try this again. Bernstein's earlier fifth is pretty poor, his  DG account much better.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 01, 2012, 03:59:28 PM
Oy vey!
Sinopoli must be A5.

Big surprises for me were how much I liked Bertini (same thing with the 6th!) and how much I dissed Lenny's RCO 1st. When this whole thing is over those will definitely be two recordings I will listen to in full!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on October 01, 2012, 04:36:17 PM
    interesting result. My favorite performance, Bernstein M1, is gone. But attending this blind test confirm that my judgement is consistant and no prejudge. I have never been impressed by Chailly's or Bertini's peformance, even in the blind test. Bernstein RCO, Kubelik DG, Scherchen and somewhat Gergiev (in the inner movement) is my fav and this blind test shows. ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: CriticalI on October 01, 2012, 05:17:46 PM
Quote from: trung224 on October 01, 2012, 04:36:17 PMMy favorite performance, Bernstein M1, is gone. But attending this blind test confirm that my judgement is consistant and no prejudge.

Surely it confirms that you like the version you have listened to most often, so that it seems most right to you?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 01, 2012, 09:29:48 PM
Chailly, Bernstein (DG) and Bertini are certainly my top 3 Mahler symphony cycle interpreters so this is nice. Glad things are just as they should be. Too bad Honeck and Fischer weren't included in the comparison. Their No.1 are amazing too. :)

Thanks again, Daniel. You are much to kind to do all this. ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 01, 2012, 10:38:11 PM
Quote from: zauberflöte on October 01, 2012, 03:10:41 PM
Oh dear, you have two C6's.

Quote from: DavidRoss on October 01, 2012, 03:59:28 PM
Oy vey!
Sinopoli must be A5.

I compared my Sinopoli disc to the A5 sample. Yep, A5 = Sinopoli.


Quote from: johndoe21ro on October 01, 2012, 09:29:48 PM
Chailly, Bernstein (DG) and Bertini are certainly my top 3 Mahler symphony cycle interpreters so this is nice. Glad things are just as they should be. Too bad Honeck and Fischer weren't included in the comparison. Their No.1 are amazing too. :)

It's not over yet! Still one more round to go.

My Lennys have bitten the dust, but one of them almost made it to round 3! I'm surprised I slightly preferred his earlier recording, one I haven't listened to much since acquiring the Concertgebouw. Or maybe I shouldn't be surprised. It's the last movement of the Concertgebouw performance that really blows me away.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 01, 2012, 10:46:39 PM
Only four of my Top 10 possibly left for the final round.

Horenstein/LSO
Honeck/Pittsburgh
Suitner/Dresden
Levi/Atlanta
Maazel/Vienna
Ozawa/Boston
Rattle/CBSO
Chailly/Concertgebow
Tennstedt/LPO
Bernstein/Concertgebouw

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on October 02, 2012, 12:14:04 AM
Quote from: CriticalI on October 01, 2012, 05:17:46 PM
Surely it confirms that you like the version you have listened to most often, so that it seems most right to you?
I don't think so, because the last time I heard Mahler 1 before this blind test is one year ago.  I forget all my favorite so that  I can't recognise my favorite B1 despite its unique opening.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 02, 2012, 03:31:41 AM
Oh, I'm deeply sorry to see A4, the Bernstein DG, has been left out from the finalists, I would have loved to listen to it in the last round as it's my absolute favourite recording!! :( I remember the Bernstein DG was my favourite in the first group, and also the his Sony recording (A1) had ranked very well. So C6 was the Chailly, I incredibly enjoyed the excerpt from the 2nd movement, what a brilliant tempo!
I'm looking forward to listening the five final performances now! ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 02, 2012, 11:04:14 AM
Great to read all your feedback!

Yes, sorry, I was really tired when I was writing this but wanted to get the results out as promised! A5 was Sinopoliand C6 was Chailly.

Quote from: johndoe21ro on October 01, 2012, 09:29:48 PM
Chailly, Bernstein (DG) and Bertini are certainly my top 3 Mahler symphony cycle interpreters so this is nice. Glad things are just as they should be. Too bad Honeck and Fischer weren't included in the comparison. Their No.1 are amazing too. :)

Thanks again, Daniel. You are much to kind to do all this. ;)

As Sarge says, there is one more round to go: the final! The top 5 will fight it out for top place! Thank you, it's my pleasure! :)

I hope everyone recieved the links? Concerning the deadline, how about the 18th? I understand you will be wanting quite a lot of time considering you will have 5 recordings of the whole symphony to listen to. The deadline can always be extended, please let me know your thoughts on this. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 02, 2012, 11:42:47 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 02, 2012, 03:31:41 AM
Oh, I'm deeply sorry to see A4, the Bernstein DG, has been left out from the finalists, I would have loved to listen to it in the last round as it's my absolute favourite recording!! :( I remember the Bernstein DG was my favourite in the first group, and also the his Sony recording (A1) had ranked very well. So C6 was the Chailly, I incredibly enjoyed the excerpt from the 2nd movement, what a brilliant tempo!
I'm looking forward to listening the five final performances now! ;D

As I said in my previous post, Bernstein (DG) is one of my favourites. Too bad it's been left out, indeed. His Sony recording is definitely under the DG version. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 02, 2012, 11:52:29 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on October 02, 2012, 11:42:47 AM
As I said in my previous post, Bernstein (DG) is one of my favourites. Too bad it's been left out, indeed. His Sony recording is definitely under the DG version. :)

Certainly agree. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 02, 2012, 12:07:36 PM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on October 02, 2012, 11:42:47 AM
As I said in my previous post, Bernstein (DG) is one of my favourites. Too bad it's been left out, indeed. His Sony recording is definitely under the DG version. :)
One of my faves, too, but the blind listening samples in both rounds impressed me unfavorably, seeming slow and indulgent and self-conscious. Funny, that's how I long regarded Lenny in general and especially his later recordings on DGG -- which in recent years I've come to love. Maybe when I pop this disc in the player I've already adjusted myself to accommodate Lenny's languid and sometimes arch approach. And perhaps I make the same adjustment with his WP M5 and his late Sibelius recordings, all of which once struck me as grotesquely indulgent but which I now treasure.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 03, 2012, 01:07:17 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 02, 2012, 03:31:41 AM
Oh, I'm deeply sorry to see A4, the Bernstein DG, has been left out from the finalists, I would have loved to listen to it in the last round as it's my absolute favourite recording!! :( I remember the Bernstein DG was my favourite in the first group, and also the his Sony recording (A1) had ranked very well. So C6 was the Chailly, I incredibly enjoyed the excerpt from the 2nd movement, what a brilliant tempo!
I'm looking forward to listening the five final performances now! ;D

If you could get Bernstein DG (A4) into the top 5, which one would you like to see it replace? A8? B1? B8? C5? or C8?

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2012, 03:13:44 AM
Quote from: Beale on October 03, 2012, 01:07:17 AM
If you could get Bernstein DG (A4) into the top 5, which one would you like to see it replace? A8? B1? B8? C5? or C8?

Based only on the two inner movements (all I've heard so far, which I found "just right" in a middle-of-the-road way but with no individual traits to make it stand out as something special) I wish A4 had beaten A8. If A8 turns out to be one of my Top 10, I'll eat my words  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 03, 2012, 03:14:06 AM
Quote from: Beale on October 03, 2012, 01:07:17 AM
If you could get Bernstein DG (A4) into the top 5, which one would you like to see it replace? A8? B1? B8? C5? or C8?

A8, B1, B8 were comprised in my group in the second round and B1 was one of my least favourites; maybe I would have chosen that one.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 03, 2012, 06:45:17 AM
Judging from what I heard in round 1 and 2, I consider C8 the weakest of the top 5 group.

But my opinion might change once I get around to hearing the entire piece. Just started with A8 now ... it is really nice without the interruption and stoppages.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2012, 07:11:45 AM
Quote from: Beale on October 03, 2012, 06:45:17 AM
Judging from what I heard in round 1 and 2, I consider C8 the weakest of the top 5 group.

And C8 was my top pick in both prior rounds  ;D  But I haven't heard the first movements of  A8, B1 or B8 so I don't know if C8 will hold up once I've heard them all. I know who C8 is: I'll try to remain objective.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 03, 2012, 08:46:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2012, 07:11:45 AMI know who C8 is: I'll try to remain objective.

Sarge
;)

I've known who C8 and both Bernsteins were, I think.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on October 03, 2012, 10:59:14 AM
A8: This performance is very objective with no unexpected tempo or phrasing, but everything is on right places. The playing is focus, grip with so much intensity. Tension is maintained to the last. Rank 4. This unsentimental but brilliant and power conducting with great brass playing remind me of Solti. Rank 4

B1: This version is great. Nice contrast in each movement, the march in 3rd movement is very colorful. Rubato is used but totally convincing, not impede the tension. The playing from orchestral is equal A8 with intensity, beautiful and superbly blend together, possibly BPO. Rank 1

B8: IMHO this performance is unconvincing. The conductor have some nice phrasing in places but in expense of forward momentum. The first movement is an example, tempo is slow, tension is lagged that put me to sleep until the good climax. The same problem appears in the last movement. But the second movement is great, natural, lovely, sunny, near ideal. The orchestral playing is secure, beautiful but somewhat lacks the intensity, grip.
   The fussy conducting in outer movement but great in Scherzo remind me of Tilson Thomas. Rank 5
C5: I think this version is the good documentary when studying this score. So much detail, which is often overlooked, appeared throughout this performance but the tension is maintained well. Strangely, I feels this version is overstudied, too much muscular and missing the charm. Rank 3. I think the only conductor can reveal so much overlooked details is Zander

C8: I really like the brass playing in this version, nuanced but powerful when needed. Details and tempo is well judged. Very hard to choose between B1 and C8. Rank 2

overall B1>C8>C5>A8>B8




Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 03, 2012, 11:09:37 AM
Wow.... that was quick! Thank you very much for your vote! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 03, 2012, 06:58:54 PM
Jeebus!  :o
I've only just gotten through two movements of one recording!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on October 03, 2012, 10:31:23 PM
*sitting down to tackle this gargantuan task*
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 03, 2012, 11:59:35 PM
Daniel

Just heard C8 last night. The first three movements were truncated at the end. Was that on purpose? I think I heard enough so it is not an issue.

On to C5, B1 and B8 tonight.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2012, 03:34:45 AM
Quote from: Beale on October 03, 2012, 11:59:35 PM
Daniel Just heard C8 last night. The first three movements were truncated at the end.

Yes, C8 isn't complete. There are about two minutes missing, from the first and third movements. Second and fourth movements seem to be intact (I only listened to the end of each and they ended properly).

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 04, 2012, 10:17:45 AM
Oh no... I'm very sorry about that, I hadn't noticed it when I sent it out.... I shall send out a new C8 this evening.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 04, 2012, 12:03:11 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 04, 2012, 10:17:45 AM
Oh no... I'm very sorry about that, I hadn't noticed it when I sent it out.... I shall send out a new C8 this evening.
Thanks, Daniel.

Re your Beethoven tag line. Was that said in response to a patron who said he could not afford to support Beethoven in addition to his counselors and researchers?  ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 04, 2012, 12:03:52 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 04, 2012, 10:17:45 AM
Oh no... I'm very sorry about that, I hadn't noticed it when I sent it out.... I shall send out a new C8 this evening.

If the others agree, I'm sure we can make a decision without those 2 minutes. It would be a waste of your time. The material you gave us is more than enough. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 04, 2012, 12:07:39 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 04, 2012, 12:03:11 PM
Thanks, Daniel.

Re your Beethoven tag line. Was that said in response to a patron who said he could not afford to support Beethoven in addition to his counselors and researchers?  ;)

'Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy, it is the wine of a new procreation, and I am Bacchus who presses out this glorious wine for men and makes them drunk with the spirit.'  Ludwig van Beethoven, quoted in Marion M Scott, Beethoven (1934)
He was probably pleading his case. ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 04, 2012, 12:14:59 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 04, 2012, 12:03:11 PM
Thanks, Daniel.

Re your Beethoven tag line. Was that said in response to a patron who said he could not afford to support Beethoven in addition to his counselors and researchers?  ;)

;D
I might have to look up where it came from. ;)

Quote from: johndoe21ro on October 04, 2012, 12:03:52 PM
If the others agree, I'm sure we can make a decision without those 2 minutes. It would be a waste of your time. The material you gave us is more than enough. :)

I've sorted it out now, so hopefully the new link will be sent out in the next hour. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 04, 2012, 02:35:52 PM
It turns out the new file I had created still lacked the exact same sections for no apparent reason.... I will have to try posting the symphony in two halves for C8. But the earliest I can do that is tommorow evening.... I hope that will be ok for everyone. Sorry about this again! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 04, 2012, 03:02:52 PM
Thank you for your efforts, Daniel; you don't need to apology. :) If that one is the only way not to lack sections of the symphony, it's very good. Otherwise I think C8 should work well enough overall, though.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 04, 2012, 03:56:23 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 04, 2012, 02:35:52 PM
It turns out the new file I had created still lacked the exact same sections for no apparent reason.... I will have to try posting the symphony in two halves for C8. But the earliest I can do that is tommorow evening.... I hope that will be ok for everyone. Sorry about this again! :)
No worries, Daniel. What you've already done is far more than good enough and we're all grateful to you for giving us this opportunity for blind hearings. A few minutes off the end of a movement or two aren't likely to make the difference between our liking a performance or not. ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 05, 2012, 03:14:42 AM
Geez, now I feel sorry for bringing this up about C8. I said earlier I don't think it really mattered and would be happy enough as it is.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 06:35:29 AM
Okay, I've heard all five that remain. Good thing that I love this symphony, otherwise I doubt I could have survived hearing it so many times in such a compressed time frame!

I listened to each one separately over several days, making notes as I went, without reference to my previous impressions in this survey and without trying to identify performers. I also avoided reading others' comments about them here until I had finished. I hoped to hear each one freshly and unaffected by influences that might prejudice my responses.

Four seemed very good. I liked three of them so much that choosing favorites among them is like choosing favorites among your children. The fifth fell short, yet it also has merit and is extraordinary in its own way.

From best to worst (that is, most liked to least liked, at least on this occasion), I ranked them C5-B8-A8 (all in a very tight group whose order is somewhat arbitrary and might change on any given day) with B1 following closely and C8 bringing up the rear.

My unedited notes follow, for those interested in reading about others' responses.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 06:36:44 AM
A8—1st bubbling winds just a tad sluggish, trumpet good, wind "echoes" a bit weak. Good cuckoo, nice horns, lovely string underpinning throughout. Nice ominous low strings. Lovely soft turn into gently lilting stroll, just a bit slow, could be jauntier. Sounds a bit recessed. Picks up pace nicely but then still a bit sluggish instead of jaunty. Flute & clarinet nice. Nice sense of approaching mystery, what's around the corner? But then gets a bit static as winds start to pipe up before wanderer theme again. Just short of edgy enough but builds nicely to triumph, terrific whooping going into finale, nice thrust, good acceleration, nice timpani.

2nd Beautifully clunky dance, no faults, speeds up nicely, beautiful transition to lilting fairy tale waltz, like children peering into the windows of the castle ballroom, played gracefully straight. Nice transition again to thumping landler, finish could be a bit headier.

3rd Well-played solo bass dirge, good drum, nice balances and entrances, played straight until clarinet enters, flute lovely but short of character, good but not ideal. Klezmer starts great, all a bit slow but sustains tension/interest, picks up nicely, sense of tender nostalgia, strings beautiful, transition back to Frere Jacques very nicely managed and seamless lovely wistful interlude. Carries on so well I got lost in listening—a very good sign! This very well judged and gently understated performance makes a good argument for scherzo 2nd!

4th Movement begins perfectly! Great brass, good tempo, power, sense of urgency. Then strings are sweet in idyllic respite, again nicely paced—slow but holds the tension—builds nicely, timpani good, nice breath after quasi-climax, nice ominous undercurrent in basses, nice the way he holds back just a little to let the tension build, So far this movement is damned near perfect! Strings sawing away, horns blaring, triumphant burst, all good. Lovely transition to reprise of 1st mvmt opening, All beautifully done. Bird calls, strings, all so sweet and tender, caressing this fragile beautiful remembered dream, youth's promise realized? And the marching return to worldliness, the surging power leading to the final climax, even more triumphant, beautifully done—Bravo!

A first rate performance, hard to equal, let alone top! Cathartic!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 06:37:42 AM
B1—1st nice, slow anticipation well-judged, tension-building, trumpets a bit too distant?, cuckoo nice & squawky, horns deliciously languid, nicely punctuated. Low strings could be a bit growlier and more ominous—builds a bit fast, but otherwise nicely done, lovely turn into lilting stroll, gets nice jaunty rhythm thanks to plucked strings mostly. Beautiful bird calls, nice string turn from lovely to more somber uncertainty, distant horns nice, all very well done, slow but sustaining tension, seamless transition to lilting wanderer, great playing by the orchestra. More striving than edgy as builds to finale, nicely triumphant, big brass whooping, conclusion very nicely judged.

2nd—Dance just a bit stodgy at first—low strings set tone—lacks element of playful joy, rhythm a bit too square, beautiful playing but just a bit short on character. Speeds up nicely, but just changes gears instead of progressive acceleration giving whirling frenzy sensation.  Floating waltz is lovely, graceful, effortless beauty. Nice folksy squawking integrated. Thumping ländler has more feeling this time, heady spinning acceleration to end very nice.

3rd—great distant drumbeat, bass just a bit too quick and sweet, dirge is straight, neither ominous nor grotesque. Again, beautiful playing but just short of appropriate character. Winds have character enough in klezmer without going over the top into lampoon. Transitions flow seamlessly. Sweetly nostalgic idealized beauty, winds & strings both characterful and delicate. Klezmer/dirge interwoven reprisal slow but weighty, not lethargic (no schlepping!).

4th—Good start, thrusting, powerful, urgent. Another sensitively-judged transition to idyllic respite, nice holding back & savoring, drifting peacefully. Nicely understated insidious creeping disquiet. Timpani very good. Like initial triumph section, nice thrust and reach. Horns splendid in quiet interval and squawky winds, flute birdcalls, all very nice. Nice integration of disparate elements—sentimental, disquieting, nature calls—very slow and quiet, respectful, almost as if worshipping the sacred, then rising to the outpouring of heart, nicely grounded by timpani. Drawn out to extremes but works.
Now, insistent strings, back to worldly struggle. Aching, longing heart. Big beautiful climax, great drum.  Damned audience bursting into applause immediately, no respect (eyes roll).

Very good, but perhaps just a bit soft compared to previous one—less edgy—so below it half a notch.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 06:38:44 AM
B8 1st—terrific opening, teeming with suspense, nice bubbling winds and oboe, distant trumpets just right, suspense maintained, horns wonderful, plucked strings, all nigh perfection. Growling low strings with just right undercurrent of danger. Timing great, effortless swing into jaunty innocent stroll, nice clarity of sound, too (despite the compressed file). Accelerates nicely, another seamless return to quiet interval with an especially lovely flute and then drum nicely gauged (with everything else) as ominous undercurrent returns. The winds are great, must be a fine orchestra, strings, too. Nice oompah underpinning wanderer return. Nice sense of struggle, reluctance, in surge building to triumph, all seems damned near perfect – ah, finally, a slight "flaw"—brass could "bray" more. (So not quite perfect after all!)

2nd—great, rollicking dance, clumping but joyful, strings nicely driving rhythm, note again the nice clarity and dynamic balances in this recording, too. Nice sustained acceleration, beautiful delicate waltz, lovely subtle hesitations, speaks of effortless grace but real, attainable, not rarefied nor other-worldly as in previous two. Galumphing return here seems as different moods or phases of one dance, not two completely different dances contrasted. Finish not quite as zestful as ideal, methinks.

3rd—Beautiful dirge, like others played pretty straight—really like the balances in this one—fine transparency, sense of currents in the stream. Reverential entry to klezmer, pace picks up nicely, tonal character still beautiful but getting more folksy as it goes. I like it folksier but this makes a damned good case for this approach, strings are great returning to dirge rhythm, harp beautifully understated as lyrical interlude begins, lovely nostalgic fiddle, wonderful winds (again, a terrific orchestra!), I like the nostalgia throughout. Seamless return to dirge, marveling again at the clarity and the great playing, terrific concertmaster, great conductor with perfectly judged tempo changes and dynamics. If the 4th movement holds up, this may be my favorite.

4th—Great beginning, straining power in spite of the beautiful tonal quality of the playing. Maybe strings could be a bit harsher at leading edge of attack? Very nice ending and winding down of this section with entry to lyrical interlude, seems more like a real respite, an interlude in a sheltering harbor rather than wistful longing for an imagined past. Ominous return nicely done, not otherworldly, but matter of fact, life isn't like that, must return to the fray, to struggle, pulled by dreams of triumph, but there are dangers, risk of failure, but persistence brings real triumph, a glorious sense of arrival.

Ah...but after the triumph, the distant call of nature, the world of the spirit, the world of grace and beauty, not the world of man filled with struggle and strife. Oh, but in this performance there's a sense of mourning for what has been lost, rather than mere nostalgic longing. Some reverence and regret, questioning "can this be again? Has the struggle been worth this loss of innocence, of beauty, of oneness with God's world?"

Great strings beckoning a return to the world of ambition. Struggling against longing and regret to enter wholeheartedly into triumph and glory. Entire orchestra playing together wonderfully with sound transparent enough to hear individual parts clearly. Splendid rolling timpani. Nice hesitation—but climax perhaps just a wee bit underdone.

Still, a marvelous performance and the one I'd most like to hear again soon out of the three so far.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 06:39:51 AM
C5 1st—beautiful bubbling winds, nice oboe turn, lovely sense of foreboding, great trumpet calls, love slowly building tension, beautiful French horns, nicely ominous strings, lovely throughout, deft turn into lilting stroll, another lovely flute, nice harp! Building well, just a bit big, perhaps, another nice recording it seems, adequately transparent with well-judged instrumental balances, like the timing and sustained tension of the ominous interlude, the effortless understated cresting back to the gentle wanderer music. I especially love the gentleness of this performance, the surging at end seems more like a heart overflowing almost to bursting, and then the struggle and triumph—great gradual acceleration and whooping—Boy, this is another lovely performance with a great finish!

2nd—Like the clunky almost stuttered rhythm, shimmering bells, top-flight orchestra does everything so well it calls no attention to itself,turns on a dime when the conductor steps on the throttle! Plaintive, lilting waltz, love the hesitations. Like previous one, of a piece with this world, not otherworldly, more real and satisfying in a way. Okay, we're galumphing now! Big but loving and joyous, whirling finish almost giddy—yeah!

3rd—Best Frère Jacques start yet, bass more trenchant, clarinet more caustic. Love the tone swinging into the klezmer music, great drum, delicious hesitations, slow but with so much to savor, the splendid percussion and winds—and strings!—make me aware again that this is a very good orchestra, indeed! What a deft and delightfully effortless, inevitable, turn to the nostalgic interlude, and this is dripping with nostalgic longing—great shift to vaguely ominous and now a bit sardonic dirge, with klezmer music mocking death itself, not mocking Yiddish folk music—yeah! And a fine finish!

4th—Great opening, most energetic and powerful so far, great drum, love the strings sawing away. More determination than struggle. First-rate opening. Slow transition to lyrical interlude like entering another world, well-played, nice sense of restrained passion in the strings, damn but this is the most broadly romantic performance here among the lot of them so far, but it works very well. Big surges, big contrasts, love the intensity of the strings leading to and through false climax.

All in all this is lovely—my attention is flagging, not because of inadequacy in the performance, I think, but because this is the second complete hearing today and the 4th in 3 days.

Again, big, surging, romantic, lovely orchestra, a bit of milking it by the conductor but not excessively, love the tone of the lower strings, there's a current of urgency driving the buildup to the real climax, BIG thudding drum, here it comes, big, bursting triumph—everything you could want it to be. Love the brass, love everything about it, the constant forward surge, the sustained big finish (all but the clipped end!).

First-rate performance. Let's call it my favorite so far.That makes it C5-B8-A8 in a very tight group, with B1 just a half-step behind.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 06:40:54 AM
C8 1st—another good opening, winds less bubbly but lovely, like all well enough, trumpets fine, horns a bit muted but it works, slow but beautiful, sort of a drowsy awakening feel, carrying into start of strolling music, slow and gentle and beautiful, now acceleration seems like coming fully awake. Stroll continues as a gentle wonderland walk, not jaunty, but it works. Flute call slow and beautiful—the sheer deep dark luscious sound of this orchestra—winds & strings—is lovely but the slowness verges on stasis, doesn't sustain tension as well as others (but the sound is gorgeous and the winds are characterful, esp flute). Finish is same, the sound is big and beautiful but at the cost of character & feeling.

2nd—Big, clodding, sounds lovely but slow and lacks spirit. Mighty fine orchestra, tight, with rich, dark sound, but the conductor is caught up in the sumptuous, romantic beauty of the piece at the expense of the music's character—in a way it reminds me of a gift package so beautifully wrapped that the gift itself seems like an afterthought.

3rd—Bass is beautiful but consistent with performance it lacks nuance of character, played straight, without the wry undertone necessary. This whole movement continues like the ones before: slow, gorgeous, but focused on beautiful, luscious sound and missing much of the character of the music. But wow, it sure is gorgeously played. High praise for the orchestra! And hard not to speculate about the conductor! ;)

4th—Beautiful without an edge—not surprising in view of the preceding movements. Continues in same vein, gorgeous and lushly romantic (but not heart-wrenching) and not emotionally engaging, all the way to the big finish.

Ranking them is hard enough without throwing this wrench into the works. It is utterly gorgeous and very well-recorded, luxuriating in Mahler's masterful orchestration and his mastery of the late romantic idiom, but the emphasis on beauty of sound comes at the expense of character—so ultimately it fails in relation to the others, though its beauty is so great that it makes an interesting alternate reading just for that.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 05, 2012, 06:53:29 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 06:35:29 AMI ranked them C5-B8-A8 with B1 following closely and C8 bringing up the rear.

Then my results will undoubtedly be C8 B1 A8 B8 C5. I don't even have to listen  ;D  Thanks, David, for doing all the work  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 07:36:39 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 05, 2012, 06:53:29 AM
Then my results will undoubtedly be C8 B1 A8 B8 C5. I don't even have to listen  ;D  Thanks, David, for doing all the work  :D
;D

You're welcome, Sarge. I look forward to seeing your notes if you change your mind.  ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 05, 2012, 01:19:37 PM
Thanks, everyone. I am still trying, and am on my last idea  to solve this. I'm quite sure it will work this time though.... If not, I have no idea how to solve the problem, as the tracks themselves are complete, it's just when they were published that the endings to m1 and 3 were cut off.... Let's hope this works! :)

David, thank you very much for posting those notes. I enjoyed reading them very much!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on October 06, 2012, 06:04:46 AM
i just had a cosmic life-altering experience listening to B1 [cannot wait to find out who it is!]

3 more to go? i'll try but i think i have a winner
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 06, 2012, 06:14:24 AM
Quote from: xochitl on October 06, 2012, 06:04:46 AM
i just had a cosmic life-altering experience listening to B1
Congratulations! That might just be the most wonderful thing great art can do for us (though opening the door to continuing spiritual succor is nothing to sneeze at!).

If you respect the power of music to offer such experiences, you will probably find this interesting: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21012.msg665334.html#msg665334 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21012.msg665334.html#msg665334)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 06, 2012, 12:02:02 PM
Really glad to hear that! :)

Right, all the links to the repaired version of C8 have now been sent out to everybody. It should work this time. Thanks again for your patience, and sorry that there was this problem in the first place. Hope you are all enjoying it! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 06, 2012, 12:25:07 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 06, 2012, 12:02:02 PM
Right, all the links to the repaired version of C8 have now been sent out to everybody. It should work this time. Thanks again for your patience, and sorry that there was this problem in the first place. Hope you are all enjoying it! :)

Wonderful, thank you for your efforts, Daniel. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 08, 2012, 04:38:26 PM
I just put on a recent Mahler 1 recording that impressed me very favorably on first hearing: Honeck with Pittsburg. I listened carefully, taking notes, just as with the recordings in the comparison above.  What I found surprised me quite a bit. It didn't measure up to any of the final 5 in this comparison. Overall I found it sluggish and square, uninvolving, and more about lovely sound and genteel good taste than about expressing Mahler's musical spirit from the inside out.

Here's a section from my notes that might be of interest in the context of this thread, particularly the last short paragraph:
Quote
4th mvmt—Very good opening, nice power, slow enough for building tension, lovely transparent recording quality. But then rhythm gets square, doesn't push like it should. Feels like it just dies down instead of some kind of post-climax subsidence. As it goes on I'm just not feeling it. Seems false and unengaging to me, music poured into a pre-determined package rather than growing organically from within. And sound gets a bit murky about halfway through, strings especially.

I'm seriously wondering why this recording so impressed me at first. Is it because I expected so little from a third-string conductor and orchestra? Perhaps it's a bit unfair to hear this next after hearing the 5 recordings judged best in in Daniel's M1 Comparison.

Having lost interest, I'm finding it tough to keep listening with an open mind. It generally sounds lethargic and uninvolved, all the way to the end.

This may be a good lesson for me in why it takes living with a recording a while before coming to any conclusions about it. First impressions aren't always lasting, and nuances we overlook at first might prove keys to subtle beauty that ages well.

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 09, 2012, 08:05:52 AM
After much listening I have arrived at my grades for the final five. I scored each movement out of ten, then tallied up to get a final score. I hope this makes sense.

From the lowest to the highest.

C8 (7+5+5+6 = 23)
Coming in to the final round I had C8 as the weakest, and this probably biased my judgement. The outer movements were ok, but the inner ones were a let down for me. They just couldn't create the mood and feel I was looking for. For me C8 lacks drama and excitement.

B1 (7+7+6+8 = 28)
Nice playing in the first. The second sounded a bit rush and fall just short of a rustic feel. The third was too restrained, bland and not moody enough. Saved by a dramatic fourth, exciting, broad and urgent. I felt the orchestra played well here, so any failings here are due to the conductor.

A8 (8+7+7+9 = 31)
Marvellously played by orchestra overall. Lots of fresh details and beautiful touches through out. Nice and smooth where needed, and to me the tempo was spot on. Unfortunately I keep getting the sense that I am listening to a massive orchestra with all its inertia and lack of agility. While all the moods and dramas are there, they are just not 100% convincing to me. This is a pity because I really enjoyed the sound made by this orchestra.

B8 (9+7+8+8 = 32)
This is more like it, great orchestra playing with the agility to be compelling. I've listen to it a couple of times, yet I failed to take any notes. I was absorbed by the music, it swept me away. I reckon this could be a reference or benchmark type of recording, one that could be played daily and not get bored.

C5 (9+8+7+10 = 34)
Now this one is special. The recorded sound is still a let down, otherwise I would like to score it even higher. Fantastic playing in the first. Great use of contrast, mixing joy and excitement. The second had the prefect rustic and rowdy feel. Lots of interesting details. The trio had the right balance. Extreme contrasts in the third sustaining interests, this is some flexible orchestra. The final movement had drama, tension and release, it had everything one would want. Heaven and hell smashed together, but the playing sounded so natural. This is one 'hell' of an orchestral performance.

So in summary C5>B8> A8>B1>C8

Thank you Daniel
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 09, 2012, 08:24:16 AM
Quote from: Beale on October 09, 2012, 08:05:52 AM
After much listening I have arrived at my grades for the final five. I scored each movement out of ten, then tallied up to get a final score. I hope this makes sense.
I like your approach. Interesting that the only movement you rated a "10" was C5:4. I, too, thought that was superb, giving me pretty much everything I could ask for in this movement.

Interesting, too, that your judgment overall is virtuallyy identical to mine, with your numerical method giving the same result as my seat-of-the-pants "where would I put this one in relation to the others" method. This suggests that I would do well to heed your criticism -- and especially where Mahler is concerned! ;)

Which other composers do you love?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 09, 2012, 09:05:29 AM
Thank you very much for your vote, Beale! :)

And thank you for posting your thoughts on that recording, Dave! Very interesting to read. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 09, 2012, 01:45:41 PM
I'm moving to a new flat and indeed a new city this weekend and, while I'm not sure what the deadline for this game is, I probably won't be able to listen to the five and turn in an opinion.  :(  It's at least possible I could have a post ready by the 20th, but that's a slim chance really.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 09, 2012, 01:55:51 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2012, 01:45:41 PM
I'm moving to a new flat and indeed a new city this weekend and, while I'm not sure what the deadline for this game is, I probably won't be able to listen to the five and turn in an opinion.  :(  It's at least possible I could have a post ready by the 20th, but that's a slim chance really.

Don't worry, Brian, I understand. :) The voting deadline was the 18th, which may possibly be extended by a few more days anyway. So, if close to the time, you think you can do it, but just need a few more days, please do not hesitate to let us know! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 10, 2012, 04:36:30 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 09, 2012, 08:24:16 AM
Interesting, too, that your judgment overall is virtuallyy identical to mine, with your numerical method giving the same result as my seat-of-the-pants "where would I put this one in relation to the others" method. This suggests that I would do well to heed your criticism -- and especially where Mahler is concerned! ;)

Which other composers do you love?

No, it is absolutely the other way around, I should be learning from you and other experienced posters here. I am glad you didn't suspects me of plagiarism. I saw your rankings earlier, but I avoided your notes to concentrate on my own. The match is indeed rather eerie, that C5-B8-A8 were so close, and that C8 was a distance fifth. I liked C5 and A8 coming into this final round, but was surprised that B8 did so well (for you and me).

Composers I like are Beethoven, JS Bach, Mozart, Shostakovitch, Schubert and Tchaikovsky. Mahler is a more recent thing, so these type of exercises are prefect for me to identify what I like and expand my collection. Can't wait to find out the identities of the top five.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 10, 2012, 05:01:40 PM
Quote from: Beale on October 10, 2012, 04:36:30 AM
No, it is absolutely the other way around, I should be learning from you and other experienced posters here. I am glad you didn't suspects me of plagiarism. I saw your rankings earlier, but I avoided your notes to concentrate on my own. The match is indeed rather eerie, that C5-B8-A8 were so close, and that C8 was a distance fifth. I liked C5 and A8 coming into this final round, but was surprised that B8 did so well (for you and me).

Composers I like are Beethoven, JS Bach, Mozart, Shostakovitch, Schubert and Tchaikovsky. Mahler is a more recent thing, so these type of exercises are prefect for me to identify what I like and expand my collection. Can't wait to find out the identities of the top five.
Your list includes many of my faves, too, along with Sibelius, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Debussy, Ravel, Haydn, and one or two or a dozen others! 

I agree that these comparative listening exercises can be very helpful in building our own collection--and in helping us zero in on what most appeals to us in this music. I'm also thrilled these days to be able to hear so many recordings via streaming services like Mog and Spotify.  I bet I'd own only half the CDs I now have if I'd had the opportunities we enjoy today to listen first!

Finally, I think we can all learn a lot from one another, whether we're just halffast amateurs like myself or seasoned music professionals like a number of our members.  I've probably learned as much from folks freshly impassioned with a new love as from the old timers who remember when the Victrola was iPod of its day!

It's nice to have you around...and thanks for participating in this survey!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 11, 2012, 12:26:08 AM
In terms of learning I found the content of this website on the First Symphony quite enlightening.

http://gustavmahler.com/symphonies/mahler-symphony-1.html (http://gustavmahler.com/symphonies/mahler-symphony-1.html)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 11, 2012, 02:25:35 AM
Thanks, Beale. It's full of information. I bookmarked it and expect to return often.  8)

Here's an interesting site you might not know that features interviews with several leading Mahler conductors about his music:

http://mahler.universaledition.com/ (http://mahler.universaledition.com/)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 15, 2012, 12:39:08 PM
Thank you, Beale and Dave for sharing those very interesting sites! :)

The first voting deadline was this upcoming Thursday 18th.... should I extend the deadline? How much longer does everyone want? :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on October 15, 2012, 12:43:35 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 15, 2012, 12:39:08 PM
Thank you, Beale and Dave for sharing those very interesting sites! :)

The first voting deadline was this upcoming Thursday 18th.... should I extend the deadline? How much longer does everyone want? :)
I shan't make it in time. Perhaps until Sunday?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 15, 2012, 10:58:07 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 15, 2012, 12:39:08 PM
Thank you, Beale and Dave for sharing those very interesting sites! :)

The first voting deadline was this upcoming Thursday 18th.... should I extend the deadline? How much longer does everyone want? :)

I'm sorry Daniel but I'm so caught up with work that I can't make it in time. Hope you'll push forward the deadline. :(
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 16, 2012, 06:30:02 AM
Quote from: North Star on October 15, 2012, 12:43:35 PM
I shan't make it in time. Perhaps until Sunday?
I would ask the same if possible.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 16, 2012, 06:36:12 AM
As far as I'm concerned y'all can take as much time as you need. If I can't stand the suspense of waiting for him to reveal the identities of the final five, I can always ask him to PM me with that info so I can set about filling chasms in my collection if need be. ;)

Hmmm ... that's not a bad idea. Daniel? I promise to keep it secret and not to drop any hints like suddenly posting M1 recordings on the purchases or listening threads. ;)  8)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 16, 2012, 09:19:45 AM
This upcoming Sunday would be absolutely fine - and even that can be extended if needs be. So, Sunday is the new deadline. :)

;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on October 16, 2012, 10:15:09 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 16, 2012, 09:19:45 AM
This upcoming Sunday would be absolutely fine - and even that can be extended if needs be. So, Sunday is the new deadline. :)

;D

Yipee!   :)  I'll get it done.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 16, 2012, 10:20:38 AM
Very fine, Sunday is perfect for me too. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 16, 2012, 10:23:22 AM
Great! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TimH on October 19, 2012, 04:45:28 AM
A very enjoyable but difficult exercise! I wonder how much one's impressions are guided by one's mood and receptivity at the particular time of listening. Also, sound quality is often an important factor in determining my enjoyment of a performance, but no doubt these files come from many different sources and in some cases there may be degradation which is not representative of the actual CD - so it may not always be fair to compare them in this respect.

1st = B8. The best 1st movement - at times joyous and playful, at others communicating a sense of mystery. The 4th movement is also especially effective - vigorous, dramatic and emphatic, with a charmingly tentative, searching middle section capped by a sublime climax. Overall a refined, accurate and noble performance.

2nd = A8. A relatively weak 1st movement sounding quite drab and mundane at times. However, the performance seemed to grow in stature from beginning to end and left a lasting impression.

3rd = C8. Let down badly by the 2nd movement - starts very very slow, often drags, and some clumsy solo entries. Elsewhere, stylish, intense and effective.

4th = C5. Difficult to judge owing to poor sound quality and distortion, especially in the 2nd and 3rd movements which at times turned into a mushy sludge. This hugely reduced my enjoyment of the music. Great last movement though, alternating between gritty/turbulent and lilting/emotional.

5th = B1. A mix of exciting and well executed sections marred by dragging and lack of magic elsewhere, e.g. opening of 2nd movement is ugly and very slow, and where is the energy in the last movement?

Looking forward to the results..... and then the next blind comparison!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 20, 2012, 08:19:59 AM
Just to let you know - I am listening (had another delay with broken washer), and I still hope to get this done by the end of tomorrow. But I have a lot of listening to go still!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 20, 2012, 08:45:34 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 20, 2012, 08:19:59 AM
Just to let you know - I am listening (had another delay with broken washer), and I still hope to get this done by the end of tomorrow. But I have a lot of listening to go still!

Oh man, Neal, I hope you find the time. I've finished listening. Just getting my thoughts together now.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 20, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
Finished at last!
In all I would say I might have liked some of the discarded performances more, though all of these are first rate. I really have little to say about my top two performances. Maybe I have Mahler 1 fatigue. As much as I appreciated the chance to hear so many wonderful recordings, toward the end they were starting to blur together. That didn't happen at all with the Mahler 6. Mahler 1 was my introduction to Mahler. The piece bowled me over in my teens. It doesn't so much anymore. I must have become jaded somewhere along the line. It's not the work's fault.

So I spent today by getting up early and listening to one performance then going about my day and listening to the others after at least three-hour intervals.
So now I have it all figured out, for this particular moment, anyway.

A8 I had made my top choice in round 2 for the sections of movements two and three. To hear the third all the way through was disappointing here. The movement was entirely respectable and lyrical which meant it didn't work at all. The rest of the performance was exceptional if nothing even remotely controversial. Great orchestra. Great brass in the last movement, too. Big, bright sound for a safe interpretation.

B1 Nice MOR performance which sounds like damning with faint praise. At this level it's not.

B8 extremely interesting, but it never convinced me. I had liked the slowness in the third movement the first time I had heard it in the earlier round, but here I felt it dragged. I tried to listen for the things David heard in it. Never materialized for me. Didn't much care for the fourth movement - pauses that made no sense, big buildups from straightforward passages never felt right. Calling attention to itself. I've said I don't mind it in Bernstein. Maybe it's because Bernstein highlighted passages I like to hear highlighted. I can't figure it out. But I found myself getting lost in the woods on occasion, thinking, where are we now? This is Mahler, not Sibelius (I love getting lost in Sibelius.)

C5 sounds perfect. No surprises, no quirks but very powerful. Again, another nice MOR performance and for me the best of the bunch.

C8 Odd accents. I was going to attribute them to the sound engineer, but the conductor had to have say in the recording. In the first movement those accents worked beautifully, not as much elsewhere. In all, more individual than the others, which was a plus. Sound had less amplitude than the others, though. In the end it just nudged out the much better sounding A8 for third place. That might be just for the day.

Rank from first to last: C5, B1, C8, A8, B8
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 04:26:54 AM
Quote from: TimH on October 19, 2012, 04:45:28 AM
3rd = C8. Let down badly by the 2nd movement - starts very very slow

This reply is not meant to criticize your criticism (we don't do that on this thread) but I just want to point out this is a Ländler, an Austro-Bavarian folk dance for couples with much stomping. It's always on the slow side. (Check out youtube for examples.) Mahler's instructions say "not too fast" and he indicated minum=66, which C8 nails (I checked it against an online metronome). So if you think it too slow (and that's okay), blame Mahler and Austrian peasants, not the conductor  ;D  (The conductor is Austrian, by the way.) A conductor who takes it much faster is falsifying the music's character; the rustic associations are lost.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 04:56:05 AM
Quote from: zauberflöte on October 20, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
C8 Odd accents. I was going to attribute them to the sound engineer, but the conductor had to have say in the recording.

If I understand what you mean by "accents" then yes, the conductor is responsible. He's on record as saying he wanted to emphasize, "even exaggerate" the unique Mahlerian orchestral colors.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 21, 2012, 05:23:55 AM
Thanks Tim and Neal for your votes, and very interesting comments!

If you think that trying to get your vote in for today may be a bit of a rush, don't worry, we can still extend the voting deadline. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 21, 2012, 05:49:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 04:56:05 AM
If I understand what you mean by "accents" then yes, the conductor is responsible.
You are correct, Sarge. Thanks for the information.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 07:44:23 AM
1 - C8
2 - C5
3 - B1
4 - B8
5 - A8

I like them all (I own, for certain, C8 and A8, both among the favorites in my collection). Ranking them wasn't easy. It came down to small details making the dfference. Unable to make up my mind for the top two places, I was forced to listen to short segments of C8 and C5 (each a few seconds in duration) back to back for the length of each performance. It was maddening in that they kept swapping first and second places, depending on which segment I was listening to. In the end, the more unusual, individual (mannered?) and slightly slower performance won, but it was a close thing. C8's slightly better sound helped also (the CD is sensational but this rip sounds mighty fine too).

One thing that tipped the balance is the silent, magical atmosphere C8 creates with a slightly slower tempo in the section leading up to the Spring explosion. At 11:46 the recessed horns (recessed relative to the other competitors) create wonder, mystery and anticipation. C5 is good too but not quite as arresting. C8's slow, deep, rumbling low brass at 14:48, while perhaps more evocative of Fafner awakening than budding Spring flowers, is awesome. When the explosion comes, C8's bass drum is sensational while C5 lost the drum in an overly loud cymbal crash.

C8's horns were also instrumental in choosing it number 1. They are extraordinary whether playing with great delicacy (11:46) or whooping up a storm (15:38) or braying and trilling with extreme vulgarity (16:09)  Recent recordings by this orchestra (not just their M1) make me believe it has the world's best horn section now...the best recorded horn section anyway.

I agree with David that C8 is an intensely beautiful performance. I just don't agree with his conclusion. The only time the beauty is contrary to Mahler's intentions is, I think, the funeral march. But C5 is no less beautiful here (well, maybe marginally less--C8 sets the bar pretty high  ;D )  B1 is the only performance that gets it right: a bass that eschews beauty with a slightly sour tone and cheesy vibrato, trying to recreate the amateurish playing of the village band Mahler remembered from his childhood. This movement, plus the B8 trio in the second that could have been schmaltzier, could have swooned more, decided my third and fourth places.

It's hard to fault A8 but compared to the others, it doesn't thrill me as much--and the recorded sound, while quite good, is a little harsh. I'd like more deliberation at certain moments, the trio needs a dose of gooey taffy, and the orchestral balance at the end of the symphony is poor: the strings disappear in a blast of brass. Compare how clear the chugging strings are in C5 (at 53:16). That's the kind of thrilling detail I relish...and the kind of detail that figures greatly in how I rank performances (just so you know  ;) )


Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 07:46:31 AM
The choices so far:

DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte Trung224

      C5          C5      B8      C8         C5                B1
      B8          B8      A8      C5          B1               C8
      A8          A8      C8      B1          C8               C5
      B1          B1      C5      B8          A8               A8
      C8          C8      B1      A8          B8               B8

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 21, 2012, 07:59:52 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 07:46:31 AM
The choices so far:

DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte

      C5          C5      B8      C8         C5
      B8          B8      A8      C5          B1
      A8          A8      C8      B1          C8
      B1          B1      C5      B8          A8 
      C8          C8      B1      A8          B8
I'm coming! Listening to the last one right now. THen I need some food and a bit of time to digest the results (and I suppose the food). Then I may need to go back and do a little comparison listening and then I will post. So as long as it is Sunday somewhere in the world, I will post my results on Sunday! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 08:07:54 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 21, 2012, 07:59:52 AM
I'm coming! Listening to the last one right now. THen I need some food and a bit of time to digest the results (and I suppose the food). Then I may need to go back and do a little comparison listening and then I will post. So as long as it is Sunday somewhere in the world, I will post my results on Sunday! :)

Excellent! I hope Monkey Greg finds the time too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 21, 2012, 08:10:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 07:46:31 AM
The choices so far:

DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte

      C5          C5      B8      C8         C5
      B8          B8      A8      C5          B1
      A8          A8      C8      B1          C8
      B1          B1      C5      B8          A8 
      C8          C8      B1      A8          B8

Good stuff Sarge, but I think you left our Trung224's contribution from the 3rd October.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 08:38:42 AM
Quote from: Beale on October 21, 2012, 08:10:02 AM
Good stuff Sarge, but I think you left our Trung224's contribution from the 3rd October.

:o  Wow...he was fast! so fast he flew right by me unseen  :D  I'll correct my post now.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 21, 2012, 08:49:06 AM
Wow, all over the place. Not much separates these performances. So far only C5 hasn't received a last place vote and only A8 hasn't received a first place. I can easily see how A8 could be someone's favorite.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on October 21, 2012, 08:59:58 AM
I won't have the time to get my votes in, and won't have time in the near future either, so I'll have to skip this last round :(. The results are interesting, to say the least.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 09:15:20 AM
Quote from: zauberflöte on October 21, 2012, 08:49:06 AM
Wow, all over the place. Not much separates these performances. So far only C5 hasn't received a last place vote and only A8 hasn't received a first place. I can easily see how A8 could be someone's favorite.

If our MAD Dungeon Master could vote, he might give it a top place. I know he admires that performance.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 21, 2012, 09:45:49 AM
Thank you very much for your vote, Sarge. Very interesting comparative comments too.

Sorry to hear that, Karlo - thanks for letting us know.

haha, Neal! :D Don't worry, we are still awaiting another 5 votes at least anyway! :)

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 21, 2012, 10:29:14 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 21, 2012, 09:45:49 AM
haha, Neal! :D Don't worry, we are still awaiting another 5 votes at least anyway! :)

Hope you're not counting on me! I'd JUST now have the time to start listening, but there's no way I'm going to shotgun five Mahler Firsts today  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 21, 2012, 10:31:27 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 21, 2012, 10:29:14 AM
Hope you're not counting on me! I'd JUST now have the time to start listening, but there's no way I'm going to shotgun five Mahler Firsts today  ;D ;D

;D
How long do you think you would want, Brian? :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 21, 2012, 10:37:30 AM
Final: Mahler 1
Some of you know that Mahler's first symphony has never really resonated with me in any special way. I think I have figured out what bothers me most – it is the way the transitions and the tempo changes are handled. Too many of the versions are too abrupt in this regard and do not make each section flow to the next. I think this is absolutely critical for me. The actual tempo chosen is almost irrelevant compared to how the transition/change is handled.

As a result, C8 was my winner. I am shocked even myself. But this is the one that opened my eyes to the piece most of all – I heard things (impacts, soli, harmonies, etc) that I heard nowhere else. Tempo changes are handled very well and good contrasts are made throughout.  My favorite movement was probably the fourth movement of C5 (though B8 wasn't far off at all), which I placed 3rd. I found the sound not so great, but not sure if that is just because it is a transfer or it really isn't that great (if it isn't, then it would probably need to be dropped lower for that).  #2 for me was B8, which I think also did very well with the transitions and is perhaps a safer choice than C8. A8 and B1 are good, but never reach the same heights that the others do for me.

Ranking: C8, B8, C5, A8, B1

My Rankings:
A8: I. The various entrances after are nice, but this seems dull/flat to me. Tempo not to my taste at all. But later build ups are quite nice in impact. Trumpets sometimes sound flat too. However, the unison is great and the whole orchestra has bought in to the approach (though I still find it drags a bit at times).  However, the build up to the end of the movement is hugely attractive. I hear many details here, really quite wonderful. II. Nice start, though a hair draggy (just a little bit), which takes away just that slightest bit from the dancelike character of this part. But then it speeds up a hair and it is better! Impact is still good! And then the trio is quite wonderful.  I note it was restrained in the earlier listening, which shows how important it is in context as it contrasts just fine with the preceding section (though a little more could have been squeezed out). Ends well indeed.  III. Again, tempos just a hair slow (here I agree with my previous round comment of ponderous start). Because of this, the klezmer doesn't quite work as well with the same slackness.  Some great beauty here, but perhaps a bit too static as we go from section to section (could have benefited from a bit more contrast).  IV. Good start! But then it loses steam until it quickly picks it back up in some beautiful playing (guess it was just the transition I didn't like).  The tuttis have enormous impact (though an unexpected unison problem in one moment)!!   In Sum. Biggest issue for me is that sometimes the tempo was too slack, but this was otherwise a very good version with lots of audible details (and transparency).  Never got under my skin (with the exception perhaps of some bits of the fourth movement), but l was able to luxuriate in some wonderful moments.  Ranking:  4

B1: I. Starts in tune. Starts a bit dull for me, though again nice sounding. Much, much better tempos after it gets going, though the fullness of sound is not quite the same as in #1. Some strange slowdowns running into some tuttis sound artificial to me. II. Tempi seem a bit all over the place – slows down, then speeds up. It is a bit of whiplash in the changing of gears. And then it just flies – doesn't seem very natural. I like the different parts, but I feel the transitions ruin them (to some degree).  III. Trio seems a bit brusque in context, actually flighty, though leads nicely to Klezmer. Transitions here are so much BETTER! Reprisal of the earlier themes seems natural. IV. Ok start, but again, a hard change in tempo (repeated more than once in other places). Highs are good, but they don't have the weight of A8.  In Sum. Transitions break the line too much (in first half in particular) and impact not quite as good as A8. I had little emotional connection to this one.  Ranking: 5

B8: I. I like how the different bits seem somehow very differentiated, and yet also part of a bigger whole (which I did not feel on the previous two). Everything seems to flow naturally, including the transitions. Very fine! Although a little before the end of the movement, there is an unusual change of tempo. II. Definitely a feeling of nimbleness to start, but then does seem to bog down a hair. But when acceleration does arrive, it is quite good.  III. A little slow for my liking on the dirge.  Seems to drag a bit. But, the slower start does give greater contrast with the Klezmer, which may not be as good as the others, but has the advantage of sounding peppier because of the contrast. And then I lost myself in that third section of wistfulness – beautiful.  IV. Exciting start here!  What excellent playing here. Transitions here are so much better than previous one, where here I don't even always notice them!  So much detail and outstanding unison! Ending is thrilling!  In Sum.  A very good version. Only the third movement lost some momentum for me, but the rest was of very high quality throughout and I really connected with it. Ranking: 2

C5: I. Good start. Trumpets in the distance just right. Natural progression as it builds, though unison is not quite as tight as it could be (nicely transparent though). Develops well – and oh, those horn blasts toward the end are well done indeed! This seems to naturally progress with very nice tuttis.  II. Landler is slowish, and I think I'd prefer it faster. Once it gets going, you get caught up in it. Trio is so very delicate and delectable!  Ends very joyful. III. I still find the march a bit draggy somehow. Klezmer is ok, though it makes some strange choices on when to play softer/louder in some moments.  IV. Exciting start, thrilling even.  The piece develops naturally. This one and B8 have outstanding fourth movements!! If we were listening to just this movement, I might pick this version – it's that good.  In Sum. Sound here was a problem, particularly in the second and third movements. It made this one harder to compare to the others. If I took sound into account, I might have to drop it down further. Overall, this was a solid version. It does a lot of things well (sometimes better than others), but overall it never really excited me until the end.   Ranking: 3

C8: I. Slow to get going, but beautifully played.  Love the offstage brass. All of this creates a different impact. And the transition to the main section is so gentle and soft (as is the acceleration). And when we get to the tutti, it all makes sense!  Tempo changes are finally making sense to me, because of how smoothly they are managed here.  Slow tempo is on the edge, but it is made so natural that I don't mind it.  Gosh, the low strings are so ominous when they lead to the tutti! Didn't hear that anywhere else. First time my hair stood on end this early.  II.   A hair slow, but by starting the first bar even slower, it makes it seem fine. Interesting idea. Beautifully played. The slowness, interestingly, works here. In fact, it makes tremendous contrasts with the parts that are not and it makes them that much more exciting. I also feel the tempo changes are just beautifully handled. They seem the most natural thing in the world. III. The slow funeral march works fine here too, now that we had such a great ending to the second movement. It is perhaps too beautiful (though it is somber), but it sings to me. And the Klezmer is well done. IV. Beautiful start, perhaps not as visceral as the previous two, but equally effective in its way. It progresses along a bit slowly, but so beautifully and everything is played so well, it is a joy to hear. And the tuttis are something else. When the trumpets are again heard in the distance, I had goosebumps – so divinely handled that moment. Balance is just superb throughout!  Ending is thrilling for sure.   In Sum. Perhaps it is perverse, but this one gets pretty much everything right for me despite some very slow tempi.   Ranking: 1
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 21, 2012, 10:43:52 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 21, 2012, 10:31:27 AM
;D
How long do you think you would want, Brian? :)

Although the Debussy competition suggests that I will agree with every one of mc ukrneal's rankings, I thought about my plans for the day and all I've got going on is some quality reading time, a couple loads of laundry, and the impending cooking of mushroom fontina quesadillas. So... bombs away! *starts downloading B1 and A8*

It's now 7:45 for you, right? So I most certainly can't be ready today simply by logic of how much time remains. I don't actually know what deadline you've set now...?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 10:45:39 AM
The choices so far:

DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte Trung224  mc urkneal

      C5          C5      B8      C8         C5                B1            C8
      B8          B8      A8      C5          B1               C8             B8
      A8          A8      C8      B1          C8               C5             C5
      B1          B1      C5      B8          A8               A8              A8
      C8          C8      B1      A8          B8               B8              B1
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 10:47:14 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 21, 2012, 10:43:52 AMSo... bombs away! *starts downloading B1 and A8*

Go Brian!

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 21, 2012, 10:54:46 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 21, 2012, 10:43:52 AMthe impending cooking of mushroom fontina quesadillas

Oh, man, the first one's an easy 8.5. Choosing red onions over white was inspired, but I want to look at my fledgling spice rack and see if there's something to kick the second one up a notch.

Anyway, B1 downloaded first so here goes nothing! Mahler symphony shotgunning begins now! Sarge, if young Daniel doesn't know what that idiom means*, you're in charge of either explaining it or finding that wonderful scene from The Sure Thing where John Cusack teaches Daphne Zuniga how it's done.


*to be fair, I joined GMG at around age 16
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 21, 2012, 10:58:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 10:45:39 AM
The choices so far:

DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte Trung224  mc urkneal

      C5          C5      B8      C8         C5                B1            C8
      B8          B8      A8      C5          B1               C8             B8
      A8          A8      C8      B1          C8               C5             C5
      B1          B1      C5      B8          A8               A8              A8
      C8          C8      B1      A8          B8               B8              B1

Are Beale and DavidRoss the same person!?!?!? :) Holy cow!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 10:59:36 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 21, 2012, 10:58:10 AM
Are Beale and DavidRoss the same person!?!?!? :) Holy cow!

Probably not, but they've obviously had a mind meld  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 11:07:06 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 21, 2012, 10:54:46 AM
Anyway, B1 downloaded first so here goes nothing! Mahler symphony shotgunning begins now! Sarge, if young Daniel doesn't know what that idiom means*, you're in charge of either explaining it or finding that wonderful scene from The Sure Thing where John Cusack teaches Daphne Zuniga how it's done.

Okay  ;D

When you get to C8, make sure you download the corrected file that Daniel sent later.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 21, 2012, 11:18:33 AM
Thank you very much for your vote, Neal! Very interesting to read, thank you for sharing your thoughts in such detail! :) So, may I ask, do you like the piece now? :)

Brian, haha ;D Brilliant! Take your time, don't worry. We can extend the voting deadline to tommorow evening if you wish? Hope you enjoy it!! :D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 21, 2012, 11:39:16 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2012, 10:59:36 AM
Probably not, but they've obviously had a mind meld  ;D
Hey, can I help it if Beale just has impeccable taste? ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 21, 2012, 11:57:16 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 21, 2012, 11:18:33 AM
Thank you very much for your vote, Neal! Very interesting to read, thank you for sharing your thoughts in such detail! :) So, may I ask, do you like the piece now? :)

Well, it will probably never be my favorite, but shear repetition has helped me to better learn and appreciate the piece (not to mention comments here). I think the top 2 were interesting enough for me to potentially get one of them.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 21, 2012, 12:02:34 PM
Very glad to hear that, Neal! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 21, 2012, 12:23:27 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 21, 2012, 11:18:33 AM
Brian, haha ;D Brilliant! Take your time, don't worry. We can extend the voting deadline to tommorow evening if you wish? Hope you enjoy it!! :D
'Twould be nice! After a bit of laundry and shopping, starting #2 now!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on October 21, 2012, 12:27:54 PM
so i have 2 to go and cant start until 4 hours from now

am i still in?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 21, 2012, 01:16:20 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 21, 2012, 12:23:27 PM
'Twould be nice! After a bit of laundry and shopping, starting #2 now!
Quote from: xochitl on October 21, 2012, 12:27:54 PM
so i have 2 to go and cant start until 4 hours from now

am i still in?
Ok then, the new deadline is this time tommorow. (24 more hours)
Enjoy! :)

By the way, I remember some people earlier in the thread talking about possibly setting up new blind comparisons. If you are planning to, could you possibly PM me, so I can work out how to organize the next Mahler comparison. (to be revealed soon!! :D )
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 21, 2012, 01:47:06 PM
I'm deeply sorry I wasn't able to post my votes and comments, but if I can have a little extra time I'll do it not later than tomorrow evening. :)

Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 21, 2012, 01:16:20 PM
Ok then, the new deadline is this time tommorow. (24 more hours)

Ah, excellent! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: jwinter on October 21, 2012, 04:30:08 PM
Hi guys!  FYI, I'm afraid I'm going to have to skip the last round.  I've recently started a new job, and my listening time has taken a considerable hit.  I'll be looking forward to the results!

Cheers,
jwinter
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 21, 2012, 04:38:01 PM
That's okay, jwinter! I started a new job last week too... and not everyone is stupid enough to try to listen to all five finalists in a single night  ;D ;D

It's time for the cooking-dinner break, but with three down and C5/C8 to go, I honestly do need an aural palate cleanser. Tempted to find a full-length standup comedy set on YouTube and play that while cooking.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 21, 2012, 07:42:07 PM
A8: I did not hear this in either earlier round.
I. Opening has me a bit worried. Not especially mysterious, not especially atmospheric, off-key violins at times. The movement proper moves right along, but it's a little too heavy-set to be as graceful or evocative as B1. Oh, man, the flute at 11' is so good!! As tart as the strings can sometimes be, these are fantastic wind solos. Okay, everything from 11' on is stupendous, actually - doesn't hit the breaks before the coda, still brings it off wonderfully.
II. The scherzo goes well but oh no, no, the trio won't do at all - there's no schmaltz here. It's far too plainspoken.
III. Good; not as good as B1, but good. I like Neal's word: a bit "static" in its slowness. The lied has some sweetness, but not altogether as much.
IV. I enjoy how they handle the second subject, but the conductor does like the loud bits most, as evidenced by his skill with the "fake" climax - I call it that because it feels like victory but then fades away into quiet. In the coda, the violins are a bit runty at first and then everything becomes All Brass, All the Time! This judge says 7.4 out of 10; final ranking fourth.

B1: In the first round, I ranked this #1 and called it "very good but not special."
I. I find this first movement charming and sweet; the introduction is good enough, not especially mysterious, and when the cellos first enter with the tune I worried about their lack of grace, but from then on we had a gloriously long stretch of golden, somewhat nostalgically pretty playing. The intro's reprise feels reeeeeally slow. There will be better horns at 14:30 in C8, I know.
II. I like the very beginning, how the tempo lurches weirdly forward after a bar or two. However, I don't think this works on the reprises; surprise is gone. Did I fault this for being too fast in an earlier round?
III. Did I hear a cough, so this is live? Wow, love the first few minutes - near ideal! Like the trumpets too, though recessed percussion less. Oooh the violins! but just a hair too quick. The central lied is perfection, my god, I want to hug it. Yeah this funeral march is close to my ideal.
IV. Hmm slightly lazy phrasing of finale's main theme by the brass. By 37:20 I'm really worn out - this is a wild ride, with lots of tempo changes and truly demonic playing, so the huge slowdown is kind of welcome as a relief. At 44', the "fake" climax doesn't feel convincing enough, doesn't feel like a true ending. So it's not as tricky as it could be. Slow to the breaking point at 48:30, though it does feel very calming. 49:00-49:20 superb. I'll buy the wild changes in tempo here: this feels like a true epic, a battle fought hard and won deservedly, enough to momentarily make me forget qualms about the first half. One final thought: I have absolutely no way of judging the conductor or orchestra here; nothing suggested a particular style or region to me the way that, previously, Czech or Russian readings seemed obvious. This judge says 8.7 out of 10; final ranking second.

B8: In the first round I ranked this halfway through the pack (#4) and said it was "competent...emotionally cool."
I. Feels very smoothed over, gentle, ginger, and although there is at least one place with original phrasing, my impression is of competence, intelligence, but nothing especially exciting. Good mellow horns in the intro, though. I see this performance has been ranked 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th by various voters! Wow, the timpani at the end are piledrivers, though the rest of the orchestral playing in the coda is far, far less dramatic and exciting than in C8.
II. Only marginally better than A8 at bringing out the schmaltz in the trio (it gets better over time). I think this must be the "very competent but unexceptional" performance in the batch; I'm waiting to identify a single distinguishing trait. Good horns on the scherzo's reprise, I s'pose.
III. Wow, really slow and ominous march. Slightly overbright flute. By the time we get to the end I'm feeling like this reading is really comatose - like people are dying AT the funeral too!
IV. Making up for lost ground; the contrasting second subject does a great job providing respite, too. For the second time, I find the first horn player very impressive. Actually the brass is fairly awesome in general, as is the percussion. At 43' for the first time I feel like I'm admiring playing that stands out among these finalists. Fake climax around 45' is absolutely perfectly judged, and yes, I love the silly, indulgent pause right before the key change! The final coda is wildly exciting, too, and far better-balanced acoustically than A8's; the uniquely audible piccolo is either good or bad depending how you feel about piccolos.  :D I have no guess for this one, but I will say that I found the first half totally meh, the funeral march easily the worst of the lot, and the last movement outstanding. It all averages to, say, 6.8 out of 10; final ranking fifth and last.

C5: In the first round, where I made this my #1, I wrote, "how I always imagined Kubelik/DG might sound." I also made this #1 in the second round, where I called the scherzo "simply perfect."
I. This orchestra has mastered the rustic, central European Mahler sound. Horns have just a touch of Czech wobble to them, the violins are as smooth as a skating rink at 12', the woodwinds have great character and good solos. The conductor maintains a faultless pace and forward progress, and orchestral detail is splendiferous.
II. Immediate drop in sound quality; I think that's the transfer from Daniel's CD. Methinks the trio very good but slightly inferior to B1, maybe; I'll agree with my previous comment that the scherzo is basically perfect.
III. Hmm, very good without being great. I think I just yearn for a bit more portamento and weeping from the violins and more seamlessly woven klezmer episodes. Gets better by the end, a lot better. When the bassoon has its final solo, I almost thought I heard a Hungarian cembalom accompanying it...
IV. This is my fourth Mahler One listen of the day, so I'm getting pretty jaded, and I think even this recording got graded a little more harshly because of the "I've already heard all this three times today" effect. That said... goddamn. Just WOW. Everything everyone else said is true. Every second is flawlessly great and humongously emotionally engaging. Outstanding, at times very original phrasing. Great fake climax, great fadeout... wow the coda. Yeah this is amazing. I'm trying to remind myself that the funeral march was a touch too stiff, but when that's the only complaint I have, the conductor is this large-and-in-charge, and the orchestra is so utterly phenomenal and authentically central Europe... this judge says 9.4 out of 10; ranking FIRST.

C8: I know who this is. In the first round, I ranked this #3 (C5 #1, then Chailly) and wrote, "orchestral playing is obscenely good...French horns sound ridiculous...jubilant." Ranked it #2 to C5 in round 2, saying, "I liked it, but didn't get chills."
I. Like I said before, orchestral playing is obscenely good, and this orchestra can do things in the coda that no other orchestra in the competition could dream of.
II. Very good. Close to ideal. I listened without thinking of anything to say, actually.
III. A good bit faster than its main competition, C5, and I get that it's very pretty, but I still like it very much, and the lied at the heart of the movement is second only to the untoppable B1.
IV. This would have seemed very impressive except that it's my fifth listen of the day, I'm fatigued, and C5 was an absolute firecracker. It's quite good, but no C5. All told, this performance almost doesn't deserve to be ranked on the same scale as the others; its orchestra is unstoppably great, more so when you know as I do that this is a live recording from a band not globally known for playing this incredible. Its conductor has a unique vision of the piece and really milks the first movement coda, among other great moments, for all it's worth. I wished he hammed it up with equal abandon in the funeral march - but this recording is very special even though I'm ranking it third. This judge says 8.0 out of 10; ranking third.

FINAL RANKINGS
1. C5
2. B1
3. C8
4. A8
5. B8

BONUS: Movement-by-Movement Favorites!

Langsam, schleppend – Immer sehr gemächlich C8
Kräftig bewegt, doch nicht zu schnell – Recht gemächlich (restrained), Trio C5
Feierlich und gemessen, ohne zu schleppen – Sehr einfach und schlicht wie eine Volksweise – Wieder etwas bewegter, wie im Anfang B1
Stürmisch bewegt – Energisch C5

DOUBLE EXTRA BONUS: Artist Guesses
A8:
Solti/LSO? But Sarge narrowed it down to three possibilities, and of those I'll guess Horenstein. (edit: Sarge clarified that he did not, in fact, do so)
B1: SFSO/Tilson Thomas?
B8: no guess
C5: I haven't the foggiest. Could be German, more likely central Europe... no idea.
C8: I know this one. The conductor's name anagrams to "Hack Demon Fern"
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 22, 2012, 01:19:01 AM
The choices so far:

DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte Trung224  mc urkneal  Brian

      C5          C5      B8      C8         C5                B1            C8              C5
      B8          B8      A8      C5          B1               C8             B8              B1
      A8          A8      C8      B1          C8               C5             C5             C8
      B1          B1      C5      B8          A8               A8              A8             A8
      C8          C8      B1      A8          B8               B8              B1             B8
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 22, 2012, 01:37:32 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 21, 2012, 07:42:07 PM
A8:[/b] Solti/LSO? But Sarge narrowed it down to three possibilities, and of those I'll guess Horenstein.

I don't want to give you the wrong idea. I acquired A8 after posting my then current list of favorites still possibly in the running. A8 isn't Horenstein.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 22, 2012, 03:58:49 AM
I notice Brian has the same ranking as I but offers about a million times greater detail explaining why. So, yeah, what he said.

Also, to listen to all five recordings in one day and come up with such a comprehensive analysis is nothing short of remarkable.
Tip of the hat.   :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 22, 2012, 02:09:01 PM
Thank you very much, Brian, for your vote and your very detailed, interesting, and enjoyable comments!
jwinter, Thank you for letting us know, and good luck with the new job!
We are just waiting for one or two more people who I shall get in contact with. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on October 22, 2012, 06:23:00 PM
in order of preference:

B1 = like i said before, this one blew my socks off.  better than the perfect performance always sounded in my head.  i was walking listening to this on my ipod and towards the end i couldnt help myself and stretched my arms wide and looked up at the sky weeping as every emotion only mahler can conjure up washed over me...in the middle of the sidewalk!  also, the second subject of the 4th movement was done to absolute PERFECTION imo  :)

C5 = best 1st & 3rd movements of the bunch.  love the sound of the orchestra...czech?  well the grainy recording reminds me of those ancerl albums anyways...or maybe bruno walter?  i would say this one is an amazing musical experience, compared to B1 which was an amazing spiritual one.  everything is just right on this one. 

C8 = luminous orchestra.  quite godly.  those horns in the first movement!  feels very much like a super-high-octane student orchestra showing off.  reminds me of the time the st. olaf orchestra passed thu our little college town and gave us the best mahler 1st we're ever gonna get.  the end was kind of a letdown.  ultimately not as satisfying as the top 2.

B8 = evenly thought-out and perfectly paced and balanced.  wonderfully played.  left me cold

A8 = this one felt rushed and superficial, beautifully played though.  exiting and powerful where needed, but i just didnt feel a single thing listening to it except 'gee, maybe mahler's 1st isnt that good after all'
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2012, 01:16:31 AM
The choices so far:

DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte Trung224  mc urkneal  Brian  xochitl

      C5          C5      B8      C8         C5                B1            C8              C5      B1
      B8          B8      A8      C5          B1               C8             B8              B1      C5
      A8          A8      C8      B1          C8               C5             C5             C8      C8
      B1          B1      C5      B8          A8               A8              A8             A8      B8
      C8          C8      B1      A8          B8               B8              B1             B8      A8




Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 23, 2012, 08:48:11 AM
Thank you very much for your vote! Glad to hear that you had such an amazing experience listening to B1!

Just one or two people left to hear from, I think! :)

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 23, 2012, 11:38:19 AM
Quote from: xochitl on October 22, 2012, 06:23:00 PMB1 = the second subject of the 4th movement was done to absolute PERFECTION imo  :)

C5 = love the sound of the orchestra...czech? i would say this one is an amazing musical experience

C8 = luminous orchestra.  quite godly.  those horns in the first movement! ... the end was kind of a letdown.

A8 = exiting and powerful where needed
I quoted the stuff where we agree 100%. I'm convinced C5 will somehow be Czech, even though Ancerl and Neumann have already been eliminated (Walter got the boot too).
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 24, 2012, 12:19:57 PM
Just to let you know that two voters have sent me their votes through personal message:
Ilaria's:
A8
B8
C5
B1
C8

and John's:
1  A8
2  B1
3  C8
4  C5
5  B8

I think these are probably all the votes we are going to recieve, so I shall be able to post the results soon, probably on Friday.

By the way, in terms of what we do next. Brian is planning a Gaspard da nuit comparison for January. The Mahler comparisons will continue after probably. Would be nice to do another comparison before Brian's January comparison, thinking about pieces.... I was originally thinking La Valse, but would you want two Ravel's in a row? Any other suggestions? :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2012, 12:42:06 PM
DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte Trung224  mc urkneal  Brian  xochitl  LisztianWagner  Scots John

      C5          C5      B8       C8          C5                B1            C8            C5      B1            A8                    A8
      B8          B8      A8       C5           B1               C8             B8            B1      C5            B8                    B1
      A8          A8      C8       B1           C8               C5             C5           C8      C8            C5                    C8
      B1          B1      C5       B8           A8               A8             A8            A8      B8            B1                    C5
      C8          C8      B1       A8           B8               B8             B1            B8      A8            C8                    B8


Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2012, 12:44:28 PM
Quote from: zauberflöte on October 21, 2012, 08:49:06 AM
Wow, all over the place. Not much separates these performances. So far only C5 hasn't received a last place vote and only A8 hasn't received a first place. I can easily see how A8 could be someone's favorite.

You were right  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 24, 2012, 12:50:21 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 24, 2012, 12:19:57 PM


By the way, in terms of what we do next. Brian is planning a Gaspard da nuit comparison for January. The Mahler comparisons will continue after probably. Would be nice to do another comparison before Brian's January comparison, thinking about pieces.... I was originally thinking La Valse, but would you want two Ravel's in a row? Any other suggestions? :)

How about a Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique? I could help, I have many recordings  ;D in fact, too make a short one we could just do a blind comparison for the final movement only? I mean, it is one of the most exciting movements in the symphonic repertoire.  ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2012, 12:53:13 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 24, 2012, 12:50:21 PM
How about a Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique? I could help, I have many recordings  ;D in fact, too make a short one we could just do a blind comparison for the final movement only? I mean, it is one of the most exciting movements in the symphonic repertoire.  ;)

Fourth and final movements, and I'll play...just so long as I don't have to listen to a single Scène aux champs  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2012, 12:57:53 PM
Sarge  Ilaria

  C8      A8
  C5      B8
  B1      C5
  B8      B1
  A8      C8


Ilaria is my Bizzaro world twin  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 24, 2012, 12:59:31 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 24, 2012, 12:19:57 PM
By the way, in terms of what we do next. Brian is planning a Gaspard da nuit comparison for January. The Mahler comparisons will continue after probably. Would be nice to do another comparison before Brian's January comparison, thinking about pieces.... I was originally thinking La Valse, but would you want two Ravel's in a row? Any other suggestions? :)

What about one of Rachmaninov's Piano Concertos or the Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 24, 2012, 01:03:23 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2012, 12:53:13 PM
Fourth and final movements, and I'll play...just so long as I don't have to listen to a single Scène aux champs  :D

Sarge

I'm down for that. I'll help with it, or even run it myself if it seems enough would be interested.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 24, 2012, 01:20:42 PM
A Symphonie Fantastique comparison would be great.... especially is the Waltz if thrown in as well, I love that movement! And the finale really is one of the greatest in my opinion! Would you want to run it, Greg? I know it's one of your favourite pieces, so it's just a matter of whether you want to run it or hear/compare all your favourites blind. I would be more than happy to run it if so!

Ilaria, wonderful suggestions, thank you very much. Rach 3 would certainly be good to compare.... perhaps this could be a future one! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 24, 2012, 01:25:51 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2012, 12:57:53 PM
Sarge  Ilaria

  C8      A8
  C5      B8
  B1      C5
  B8      B1
  A8      C8


Ilaria is my Bizzaro world twin  ;D

Sarge

Haha, very funny! ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2012, 01:26:38 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 24, 2012, 01:03:23 PM
I'm down for that. I'll help with it, or even run it myself if it seems enough would be interested.

Well, I was joking...partially.  A comparison would have to include all five movements to be worth anything.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: North Star on October 24, 2012, 01:36:15 PM
That Berlioz comparison sounds great.
I'd like a Sibelius, perhaps a symphony or Tapiola, comparison, too.
Rach 3rd PC should be very nice, too.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on October 24, 2012, 02:08:14 PM
id be down for the berlioz comparison

suggestion:  the Eroica!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 24, 2012, 02:44:24 PM
Quote from: North Star on October 24, 2012, 01:36:15 PM
I'd like a Sibelius, perhaps a symphony or Tapiola, comparison, too.
Rach 3rd PC should be very nice, too.

Berlioz, even half the Symphonie, would be cool - Rach 3rd would be excellent - I have long thought of "hosting" a Sibelius game, and although my thoughts center on the Fifth Symphony, I also think recordings might be too recognizable. Maybe it's just me, and a couple other people, but if you play a finale of the Fifth and it's a recording I've heard at some point in the past, I will recognize it!  :-X Of course, that's true for Mahler, to some degree - a lot of people knew the Bernstein recordings from Daniel's blind samples, and Sarge and I, among others, know who C8 is. So the Fifth is still a distinct possibility if people can set aside the moments of "oh hey this is Segerstam." The Fourth is not something I'd want to hear over and over through three rounds - perhaps the Third, Sixth, or Seventh.

But yeah, I am thinking about hosting a 'Gaspard de la nuit' game at the beginning of 2013, on the theory that this game's had way too many orchestras and far too few pianos!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 25, 2012, 06:33:01 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 24, 2012, 02:44:24 PM
I have long thought of "hosting" a Sibelius game, and although my thoughts center on the Fifth Symphony, I also think recordings might be too recognizable.
For some reason I'm obsessed by the Sibelius Fifth. I probably own more recordings of it than any other piece. Many are wonderful but not one is perfect, and probably not one ever will be. But I'm always looking. Right now I'm vacillating between two very different recordings: Rattle II and Berglund COE, but I've had many other favorites over the years.
So if anyone wants to do a Sibelius 5 comparison, I'm in. I'd do it but I'm technologically challenged.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: aukhawk on October 25, 2012, 09:37:54 AM
I just thought this would be a good moment to log in and say how much I've enjoyed lurking on this thread.
All the tension of a 1st-rate whodunnit!  Top work, to the organiser, great job!

I may be new to the forum but I've had a version of Mahler 1 in my collection since the late 1960s.  And I haven't seen it kicked out yet so I guess that narrows it down a bit, which version it is, maybe it's still in there, who knows?  And I saw Haitink conduct the 9th at the Albert Hall in the early '70s, about the time his first recording of it came out - what a great night that was.

So - like everyone else, I'm waiting on tenterhooks ... (er, where's a thumbs-up smiley when you need one?)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 25, 2012, 11:53:59 AM
Quote from: zauberflöte on October 25, 2012, 06:33:01 AM
For some reason I'm obsessed by the Sibelius Fifth. I probably own more recordings of it than any other piece. Many are wonderful but not one is perfect, and probably not one ever will be. But I'm always looking. Right now I'm vacillating between two very different recordings: Rattle II and Berglund COE, but I've had many other favorites over the years.
So if anyone wants to do a Sibelius 5 comparison, I'm in. I'd do it but I'm technologically challenged.
Some reason?  How about because it's simply the greatest most mind-blowingly perfect and spiritually uplifting piece of music known to man?

I also might have more recordings of it than any other single work. Berglund COE is among my faves, too. Berglund Bournemouth is pretty fine, and his HP 5th is damned near perfect except for the weak brass. Segerstam with the Danes is another fave, along with both of Bernstein's and Blomstedt SFS.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 25, 2012, 11:59:00 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 25, 2012, 11:53:59 AM
Some reason?  How about because it's simply the greatest most mind-blowingly perfect and spiritually uplifting piece of music known to man?

I also might have more recordings of it than any other single work. Berglund COE is among my faves, too. Berglund Bournemouth is pretty fine, and his HP 5th is damned near perfect except for the weak brass. Segerstam with the Danes is another fave, along with both of Bernstein's and Blomstedt SFS.

That's my fav Sibelius piece, I'll have to check out some of those recordings.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 25, 2012, 12:34:01 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on October 25, 2012, 09:37:54 AM
I just thought this would be a good moment to log in and say how much I've enjoyed lurking on this thread.
All the tension of a 1st-rate whodunnit!  Top work, to the organiser, great job!

I may be new to the forum but I've had a version of Mahler 1 in my collection since the late 1960s.  And I haven't seen it kicked out yet so I guess that narrows it down a bit, which version it is, maybe it's still in there, who knows?  And I saw Haitink conduct the 9th at the Albert Hall in the early '70s, about the time his first recording of it came out - what a great night that was.

So - like everyone else, I'm waiting on tenterhooks ... (er, where's a thumbs-up smiley when you need one?)

Thank you!! And, welcome to the forum! :) I am hoping to post the results by Saturday at the latest.

So, Greg - would you like to lead the Berlioz comparison? Or should I? :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 25, 2012, 12:40:10 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 25, 2012, 11:53:59 AM
Some reason?  How about because it's simply the greatest most mind-blowingly perfect and spiritually uplifting piece of music known to man?
Ha! :D Well, yes, I know. I was trying to keep my penchant for overdoing it in check. It's been my favorite ever since someone pointed out to me Philip Glass lifted verbatim the great third movement theme, looped it, and turned into of a section of his "Glassworks" (I was impressionable back then. Did you ever read Morton Feldman's take on the fifth?)

I don't really like  Bernstein in the piece, sumptuous though it is. I just don't associate sumptousness with Sibelius; it's like gilding something already perfect.

The Segerstam frustrates me. It's beautifully balanced throughout  and then he just murders it with a slapdash Speedy Gonzalez ending. I'm sure there's some  pertinent explanation why he does that but I don't care. I LIVE for that finale!

The Colin Davis BSO was the one I grew up with. Still near the top. I remember the old LPs. Each symphony in the series had an Edward Munch painting as a cover. Perfect.

The Karajan DG from the 60s is exquisite, though he, too, doesn't quite make the finale soar to the level it should.

The different Berglunds are fine but right now I prefer the leaner textures of the COE, and positively love the drum thwacking in it.

Rattle I with the Philharmonia was a disappointment after all I had  heard about it. The problems it had are solved in Rattle II with City of Birmingham.

Salonen and other conductors slow the last movement down to mush.

Have you heard the Vanska? I heard it once. It's become a bit of a benchmark but it's one I don't own, It didn't wow me the one time I heard it.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: John Copeland on October 25, 2012, 12:43:40 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 25, 2012, 11:53:59 AM
How about because it's simply the greatest most mind-blowingly perfect and spiritually uplifting piece of music known to man?

I have decided to put Sibelius 5 with Bernstein and his New York giants to resolve the conflict your comment has thrown me into.  I have to check it out.   8)  It is a jolly good symphony, but THAT good?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on October 25, 2012, 05:58:23 PM
to anyone who hasnt heard the sakari/iceland sibelius 5th it's got the most awesome last movement horns ive ever heard
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 25, 2012, 08:17:43 PM
Quote from: xochitl on October 25, 2012, 05:58:23 PM
to anyone who hasnt heard the sakari/iceland sibelius 5th it's got the most awesome last movement horns ive ever heard
Ah, yes, another good one -- and a fine cycle to boot!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Daverz on October 25, 2012, 11:11:06 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 24, 2012, 12:50:21 PM
How about a Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique? I could help, I have many recordings  ;D in fact, too make a short one we could just do a blind comparison for the final movement only? I mean, it is one of the most exciting movements in the symphonic repertoire.  ;)

I  have over 20 recordings, and would be willing to help with this one, though I'd really like to participate as a listener in one finally.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 26, 2012, 04:45:28 AM
Quote from: xochitl on October 25, 2012, 05:58:23 PM
to anyone who hasnt heard the sakari/iceland sibelius 5th it's got the most awesome last movement horns ive ever heard
The Sakari 5th is in my all-time top 5! Those horns are amazing, as is the whole finale right up until the last chords (not enough silence, I recall?).
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 26, 2012, 05:22:14 PM
When the last few posts talk about Sibelius' fifth instead of expressing eagerness in all those Mahler 1 comparisons, it' a sure sign that this thread is overdue in bringing its long awaited climax !

BTW there's no point in comparing various Sibelius Fifthes: Rozhdestvensky and his USSR TV and Radio Large Symphony Orchestra floors all the competition. I mean, what competition?  ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 26, 2012, 06:13:22 PM
Quote from: André on October 26, 2012, 05:22:14 PM
When the last few posts talk about Sibelius' fifth instead of expressing eagerness in all those Mahler 1 comparisons, it' a sure sign that this thread is overdue in bringing its long awaited climax !

BTW there's no point in comparing various Sibelius Fifthes: Rozhdestvensky and his USSR TV and Radio Large Symphony Orchestra floors all the competition. I mean, what competition?  ;D
I believe at this point all the votes are in. We are eager, but  as we wait for Daniel to tally them up, we're chatting. Re the Rozhdestvensky. I'm afraid it's not a favorite. Those clipped notes in the third movement theme are a little unnerving and the brass is braying by the end, at least to my ears. But it is a very Russian sound.

I don't have the Sakari but I've heard it. It's quite fine as I remember, particularly in the first two movements. I can't quite recall the glories of the third movement as heard by others but I'll give it another shot.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 27, 2012, 05:40:35 AM
Results shall be posted today!! Very excited to reveal them! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 27, 2012, 06:05:30 AM
How wonderful, can't wait to see them! ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 27, 2012, 12:37:44 PM
Quote from: zauberflöte on October 25, 2012, 06:33:01 AM
For some reason I'm obsessed by the Sibelius Fifth. I probably own more recordings of it than any other piece. Many are wonderful but not one is perfect, and probably not one ever will be. But I'm always looking. Right now I'm vacillating between two very different recordings: Rattle II and Berglund COE, but I've had many other favorites over the years.
So if anyone wants to do a Sibelius 5 comparison, I'm in. I'd do it but I'm technologically challenged.

Do you own Vanksa & Lahti Symphony Orchestra (BIS)? It's definitely amazing if not the reference one... :)
On the other hand I also have the complete cycle from L. Segerstam & HPO (Ondine). Haven't reached the 5th but it really sounds nice.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 27, 2012, 12:40:15 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 27, 2012, 05:40:35 AM
Results shall be posted today!! Very excited to reveal them! :)

Is there a chance to include my results in the comparison this late? I'm so sorry... I've been extremely busy with my wife's PhD - working in the same field so I'm helping her a lot with the work.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 27, 2012, 12:56:03 PM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on October 27, 2012, 12:40:15 PM
Is there a chance to include my results? Is it too late? I'm so sorry for being so late. I've been extremely busy with my wife's PhD - working in the same field so I'm helping her a lot with her work.

No worries, and yes, your results can be included! If you could post them as soon as possible this evening, that would be great! :)

Quote from: Daverz on October 25, 2012, 11:11:06 PM
I  have over 20 recordings, and would be willing to help with this one, though I'd really like to participate as a listener in one finally.

Great, thank you! The thread for this one has now been created if you want to go and sign up! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 27, 2012, 01:41:51 PM
Here are the results:
C8>B8>C5>B1>A8
Thank you for your patience. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 27, 2012, 01:53:46 PM
DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte Trung224  mc urkneal  Brian  xochitl  LisztianWagner  Scots John Johndoe

      C5          C5      B8       C8          C5                B1            C8            C5      B1            A8                    A8            C8
      B8          B8      A8       C5           B1               C8             B8            B1      C5            B8                    B1            B8
      A8          A8      C8       B1           C8               C5             C5           C8      C8            C5                    C8            C5
      B1          B1      C5       B8           A8               A8             A8            A8      B8            B1                    C5             B1
      C8          C8      B1       A8           B8               B8             B1            B8      A8            C8                    B8             A8
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 27, 2012, 01:58:29 PM
Thank you for your vote, Radu! :)

Will hopefully be posting the results tonight. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 27, 2012, 02:00:10 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 27, 2012, 01:58:29 PM
Thank you for your vote, Radu! :)

Will hopefully be posting the results tonight. :)

I'm glad I took part in this comparison. Mahler 1st is one amazing masterpiece. As always, waiting anxious for the results... ;D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 27, 2012, 02:31:41 PM
And, here they are! The final results! :)

5. A8 Chicago Symphony Orchestra/Georg Solti (Decca/1984)  
Many thought of this as the 'safe interpretation' of the 5, but with many wonderful moments. Some thought that the conductor took most pleasure out out of the full orchestral tuttis, making a highly exciting performance, but thought the lyrical moments could have been more subtle, and the moments like the trio could have had more schmaltz.
[asin]B0000041Z6[/asin]
This recording recieved 25 points, out of a possible 50.

4. B1 Berliner Philharmoniker/Claudio Abbado (DG/1989)  
Throughout the first two rounds, this recording was one of the most constantly high-scoring out of them all, recieving nearly all first place choices from voters in the first round. In the final round, some voters felt that the performance was too restrained, until the finale, which they found incredibly dramatic and thrilling. Some voters found that the performance lacked magic, and said they found it too soft compared to the others. This recording did still recieve quite a few top marks in the final round though!
[asin]B000001GEZ[/asin]
This recording recieved 28 points, out of a possible 50.

3. C8 Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra/Manfred Honeck (Exton/2010)  
In the first round, this recording did incredibly well, recieving nearly 90% of its possible votes. Many found the performance to be perfect. However, in the second round, there were debates about the slow tempi that Honeck adopted for the inner movements. In the final round, some thought that this recording lacked drama and excitement, but others found it to be stylish, intense and with a fantastic orchestra. (those horns!!!!)
[asin]B002AJW1YW[/asin]
This recording recieved 29 points, out of a possible 50.

2. B8 San Francisco Symphony/Michael Tilson Thomas (Avie/2011)  
One of the most consistently popular recordings in the comparison, most voters felt they could easily connect with the performance which they found perfectly balanced, and natural.
[asin]B004RUF02C[/asin]
This recording recieved 30 points, out of a possible 50.

1. C5 Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra/Mariss Jansons (RCO Live/2007)  
Winning by a mile, this recording was enjoyed by all voters in the final round, never not having a top 3 spot from anyone. Nearly half the voters put it as their first choice. It was described as a powerful, special and perfect. Voters admired how flexible the orchestra was, and how balanced and thrilling the contrasts were. A well-deserved win, I would say. Very glad it has won!!!! :)
[asin]B000P1KTDW[/asin]
This recording recieved 38 points, out of a possible 50.

So, are you surprised at all? Glad? I very much look forward to hearing your opinions!

It has been a pleasure to organize this comparison, thank you all so very much for taking part.
Our next Mahler comparison will be starting next year, probably around late February. I'll keep it a surprise which we'll be doing! ;)

In the meantime, the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique comparison has just started, please do sign up if interested! And, Brian's Gaspard da Nuit comparison will be starting in the new year.

Thanks again, everyone! Hope you have enjoyed it! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on October 27, 2012, 02:39:48 PM
 That is surprising result :) My prediction about B1, B8, A8 is right. But C5 is Jansons, very interesting and definitely I consider to buy this
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 27, 2012, 02:40:35 PM
Honeck is definitely my reference although some say it's pretty shy. Glad it's up there with the MTT... two magnificent interpretations. The long journey finally ended and it did just well. Thank you, Daniel. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 27, 2012, 02:47:11 PM
Wow, what interesting, surprising results! So Jansons' recording was C5?! I thought to have recognized it as B8, instead that one was the MTT, which pleasantly impressed me. Glad the Jansons has won anyway, it's a very beautiful performance. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 27, 2012, 02:56:14 PM
Great job for hosting a most enjoyable journey. Is the final result here the culmination of all three rounds? The winner was never in doubt, but the scoring of the others were very close.

I will definitely seek out the top three here.

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 27, 2012, 03:11:50 PM
Thank you, Daniel!
I ranked B1 over B8 and usually like MTT much better as a Mahler conductor than Abbado, though Abaddo's ninth is great. So, color me surprised.
Looking over the voting choices Thomas seemed to divide listeners the most. It was either way up or way down in the final listening. No third place votes as far as I can see. Most of the votes were for second place. 

The Jansons was a nice surprise.

I have Solti's LSO version and wondered if A8 might have been his Chicago incarnation. Better sound  but a similar interpretation.

I knew beforehand C8 was Honeck but only because I figured out the offered anagram.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 27, 2012, 04:35:42 PM
For a point of reference here are David Hurwitz's scores for the top three.

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 27, 2012, 04:54:08 PM
Quote from: Beale on October 27, 2012, 04:35:42 PM
For a point of reference here are David Hurwitz's scores for the top three.
Whenever David Hurwitz hates a recording I tend to check it out more thoroughly and almost always avoid his 10/10s. Comes from years of practice regarding his tastes.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on October 27, 2012, 07:05:18 PM
Quote from: zauberflöte on October 27, 2012, 04:54:08 PM
Whenever David Hurwitz hates a recording I tend to check it out more thoroughly and almost always avoid his 10/10s. Comes from years of practice regarding his tastes.
exactly  :D


i'm extremely surprised B1 is abbado. ive never heard his mahler apart from the chicago 7th.  gotta check him out

also disappointed finding out B8 is MTT.  his 5th is probably in my top 3

and Jansons?!  :o  ive heard maybe 2 recordings he's made ever.  also gotta correct that
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 27, 2012, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: zauberflöte on October 27, 2012, 04:54:08 PM
Whenever David Hurwitz hates a recording I tend to check it out more thoroughly and almost always avoid his 10/10s. Comes from years of practice regarding his tastes.

Sure. That would be the ideal way to approach reviews knowing how one's taste aligns or disagrees with the reviewer. Hurwitz certainly liked Honeck (C8). I think the result from this blind comparison suggest that Jansons 1st has wide appeal.

Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 27, 2012, 09:35:12 PM
Quote from: xochitl on October 27, 2012, 07:05:18 PM
also disappointed finding out B8 is MTT.  his 5th is probably in my top 3
and Jansons?!  :o  ive heard maybe 2 recordings he's made ever.  also gotta correct that
My sentiments exactly. MTTs Mahler 5 I heard in concert and it was magnificent. Jansons I had never really appreciated. He always seemed superficial. Learn something new everyday! I'll wait until we get through all the symphonies but I'm definitely going get me some Jansons Mahler somewhere.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 27, 2012, 10:43:32 PM
Don't forget Fischer & Budapest Festival Orchestra (Channel Classics) folks. Lean your ears for a few minutes before dismissing it. It might put a wide smile on your faces.
I have a strange feeling of relief now that we are at the end of this journey. Too bad we are separated by so many miles... hundreds of miles... thousands of miles... A good drink in honour of our little acomplishment would've been great. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: aukhawk on October 28, 2012, 01:16:39 AM
Great job - seems like a convincing winner!
Since my own 'go to' recording of Mahler 1 is getting a leetle long in the tooth (Solti/LSO, nearly 50 years old now) I'll definitely be checking those top 3 out.  I've got a couple of Jansons records - I like his Dvorak 5 - and the Concertgebouw is a top top band, so it looks like I won't go wrong with that.

I'll watch Berlioz with interest, and look forward to the next Mahler comparison - or Sibelius, even better.  Or Shostavkovich.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2012, 02:27:35 AM
Quote from: Beale on October 27, 2012, 04:35:42 PM
For a point of reference here are David Hurwitz's scores for the top three.


  • Jansons: Artistic Quality 8; Sound Quality 8
  • MTT: Artistic Quality 9; Sound Quality 10
  • Honeck: Artistic Quality 10; Sound Quality 10

Quote from: zauberflöte on October 27, 2012, 04:54:08 PM
Whenever David Hurwitz hates a recording I tend to check it out more thoroughly and almost always avoid his 10/10s. Comes from years of practice regarding his tastes.

Although I too often check out his really low ratings and find I disagree--not with his specifics but with his conclusions (the Ozawa/Berlin Prokofiev cycle, for example)--I've seldom been steered wrong by one of his 10/10s. For my taste, he's a consistent and positive guide. He convinced me to give Honeck's M1 a try and, like johndoe21ro, it's become my modern reference recording (competing with the 40-year-old Horenstein for that coveted spot on the desert island).

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2012, 02:33:05 AM
Interesting fact: the top four places went to live recordings! And the top three were recorded within the last five years. Conclusion: That we're living in a golden age of Mahler performance?   ;D 8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 28, 2012, 03:13:43 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2012, 02:27:35 AM
Although I too often check out his really low ratings and find I disagree--not with his specifics but with his conclusions (the Ozawa/Berlin Prokofiev cycle, for example)--I've seldom been steered wrong by one of his 10/10s.
Perhaps I should give Mr. Hurwitz another chance. I did like the Honeck. But it was his 10/10 review of the aforementioned Segerstam Sibelius 5 that had been the last straw for me. I bought the recording based on the review and it never took off for me. And who's the guy over at Classics Today who gives every recording of Rautavaara that comes down the pike a 10/10? They aren't bad records but that's overkill.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2012, 03:31:28 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 27, 2012, 02:31:41 PM
So, are you surprised at all? Glad?

Very glad Honeck did so well (my favorites usually tend to bite the dust in these "competitions"  :D )  Surprised by Jansons and Abbado. Jansons because I'm not that familiar with his Mahler....I had no idea it could be this great (I only have his SOBR M7, a gift from Jens, that, while good, didn't impress me like this M1); Abbado because....well, it's Abbado, a conductor I'm on record as generally disliking in Mahler. Maybe if I'd heard this performance twenty-five years ago, my opinion would have been a little less critical all these years.

Honeck and Solti I knew, of course (Solti because I bought it about halfway through this comparison and had listened to it several times before the final round. But even if I hadn't, the brass dominated textures and hyper intensity would have probably given him away). I suspected B8 was MTT. His rhetorical gestures (the rubato, the retardando) are like musical fingerprints that make identifying his Mahler pretty easy.

You did a great job, Daniel (even though the final round was protracted almost to the breaking point  ;D  If we ever do one of the really long symphonies, like the Third, the last round will probably last about six months  :D  )  Thank you very much for conducting this. As I said in another thread, listening, and listening so intently, to this many Titans has increased my admiration for this symphony.

I'm disappointed Horenstein and Fischer weren't included (I should have offered a Horenstein rip). I understand it wasn't possible to include every M1 but Horenstein was the only "classic" M1 that wasn't included. There should have been room for it.

I'm also disappointed Monkey Greg had to bow out before the end. A pity.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 28, 2012, 03:41:15 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2012, 03:31:28 AM
Very glad Honeck did so well (my favorites usually tend to bite the dust in these "competitions"  :D )  Surprised by Jansons and Abbado. Jansons because I'm not that familiar with his Mahler....I had no idea it could be this great (I only have his SOBR M7, a gift from Jens, that, while good, didn't impress me like this M1); Abbado because....well, it's Abbado, a conductor I'm on record as generally disliking in Mahler. Maybe if I'd heard this performance twenty-five years ago, my opinion would have been a little less critical all these years.

Honeck and Solti I knew, of course (Solti because I bought it about halfway through this comparison and had listened to it several times before the final round. But even if I hadn't, the brass dominated textures and hyper intensity would have probably given him away). I suspected B8 was MTT. His rhetorical gestures (the rubato, the retardando) are like musical fingerprints that make identifying his Mahler pretty easy.

You did a great job, Daniel (even though the final round was protracted almost to the breaking point  ;D  If we ever do one of the really long symphonies, like the Third, the last round will probably last about six months  :D  )  Thank you very much for conducting this. As I said in another thread, listening, and listening so intently, to this many Titans has increased my admiration for this symphony.

I'm disappointed Horenstein and Fischer weren't included (I should have offered a Horenstein rip). I understand it wasn't possible to include every M1 but Horenstein was the only "classic" M1 that wasn't included. There should have been room for it.

I'm also disappointed Monkey Greg had to bow out before the end. A pity.

Sarge

It was, Sarge. I wanted to be a part of this one. But Golf season is reaching its end, which gives me more time for comparisons. That was the main reason for my departure for this one. But I kept up with this thread, and I'm actually very interested in hearing the Janons disc.

I'm helping Daniel with the Berlioz blind, I even gave him a chance to be a contestant rather than the moderator, but I think he has fun in that role  ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: trung224 on October 28, 2012, 04:00:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2012, 02:33:05 AM
Interesting fact: the top four places went to live recordings! And the top three were recorded within the last five years. Conclusion: That we're living in a golden age of Mahler performance?   ;D 8)

Sarge
Possobly not. Conductors now conduct Mahler conveniently, but lacks the angst, turbulent quality of the past. They focus on details, with the exceptional sound recording make the "natural" symphonies like Mahler 1,3,4 more affective. But with some symphonies, like 2,6,9, the result is less convincing. Otherwise, the diversity quality are much less than the past (before 1995). The Russianess of Kondrashin, Svetlanov or the Czech school with rustic woodwind sound is disappeared. The emotional angst of Bernstein, Tennstedt or the relentless intensity of Karajan, Solti is no longer existed. There are only two ways of Mahler's conducting these days: modernist (Boulez,Gielen) or straight, literal (Jansons, Chailly, Fischer, Abbado,Haitink), except Tilson Thomas,Gergiev.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Daverz on October 28, 2012, 04:08:53 AM
Quote from: zauberflöte on October 27, 2012, 04:54:08 PM
Whenever David Hurwitz hates a recording I tend to check it out more thoroughly and almost always avoid his 10/10s. Comes from years of practice regarding his tastes.

But he gave the Jansons a very positive review, with only a few nitpicks in the last paragraph.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2012, 04:26:47 AM
Quote from: zauberflöte on October 28, 2012, 03:13:43 AM
Perhaps I should give Mr. Hurwitz another chance. I did like the Honeck. But it was his 10/10 review of the aforementioned Segerstam Sibelius 5 that had been the last straw for me. I bought the recording based on the review and it never took off for me.

I'm not saying I agree with every 10/10 review. That Sibelius Fifth is a case in point: although, for me, Segerstam's Fifth does take off, in the end he crash lands it.  ;D  But, more often than not, I've been satisfied with his recommendations....and that goes back decades. I recall his early reviews in High Fidelity and other mags in the 80s. He was just as caustic and abrasive then as now (his negative review of the Rattle M2 went on for three pages!) and just as wonderfully enthusiastic and persuasive about the recordings he did love.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 28, 2012, 05:38:42 AM
Great to read all of your feedback. I too was surprised when I enjoyed the Jansons so much. I was hoping it would do well, so was very glad when it won! Good choices everyone! ;)
Like Sarge, I was also interested to see that the top 3 were the 3 most recent recordings in the comparison.

Quote from: Beale on October 27, 2012, 02:56:14 PM
Great job for hosting a most enjoyable journey. Is the final result here the culmination of all three rounds? The winner was never in doubt, but the scoring of the others were very close.

I will definitely seek out the top three here.
Thank you! :) The final result was taken from votes just from the final round.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2012, 03:31:28 AM
You did a great job, Daniel (even though the final round was protracted almost to the breaking point  ;D  If we ever do one of the really long symphonies, like the Third, the last round will probably last about six months  :D  )  Thank you very much for conducting this. As I said in another thread, listening, and listening so intently, to this many Titans has increased my admiration for this symphony.

I'm disappointed Horenstein and Fischer weren't included (I should have offered a Horenstein rip). I understand it wasn't possible to include every M1 but Horenstein was the only "classic" M1 that wasn't included. There should have been room for it.

Thank you, Sarge. It was a pleasure. :) haha - when we do get to the longest ones, like 3 and 9, will have to think a lot about how the final round can be done.... ;) Sorry about Horenstein and Fischer, should have included those two. Great to read your feedback, Sarge, I'm really glad you enjoyed the comparison.

Thanks again, everyone! I'm really glad that you enjoyed the comparison and that so many of you have signed up for the Berlioz already. More Mahler next year! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 28, 2012, 06:36:23 AM
Howdy, y'all. I'm just checking in on a beautiful sunny Sunday morning in Texas. Thanks for putting the M1 comparison together, Daniel. I was most surprised by the Solti. I've already purchased a copy of the remastered CSO recording and will be interested to see how it holds up with more familiarity.

Interesting, too, that I've liked the Honeck less each time I've heard it, though I was very favorably impressed the first time or two. Abbado & MTT weren't surprising as they're two of my favorite Mahler conductors leading great orchestras. MTT's first is one of my faves, and I bought Abbado's just a few months ago and liked it quite a bit though felt it fell just a bit short of my top five or six.

I will have to give Jansons's Mahler more attention. Apparently effortless near perfection in the first might not seem especially exciting on first hearing if we're seeking "new insights," but it should probably wear very well!

Thanks also to everyone who participated, especially for sharing your impressions along the way!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 28, 2012, 06:45:54 AM
Quote from: Beale on October 27, 2012, 04:35:42 PM
For a point of reference here are David Hurwitz's scores for the top three.


  • Jansons: Artistic Quality 8; Sound Quality 8
  • MTT: Artistic Quality 9; Sound Quality 10
  • Honeck: Artistic Quality 10; Sound Quality 10

Hurwitz has limited value for me because he's all over the map, inconsistent even in most of his prejudices. For instance, he generally dislikes MTT/SFS, but every once in a while rates one of their recordings highly (though seldom with a 10/10).  Hurwitz also gives out 10/10 ratings very freely -- grade inflation. And his most consistent prejudice is against historically informed performance practice and period instrument recordings, which make his comments regarding them worthless.

HOWEVER -- when both Hurwitz and Huntley Dent (Amazon's "Santa Fe Listener") disparage a recording, you can be sure it's well worth your attention and might just be very, very good!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 28, 2012, 07:08:47 AM
I will add my thanks to the chorus of others for all the work put into this! I got many hours of entertainment as well as insight all for the cost of my time. Perhaps our families should be happy that we spent all our time listening instead of buying! Imagine all the money we saved! :)

I was also considering doing one of these in the future (probably next year), but was considering Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky. The reason is that most people have not heard more than a few and there are actually quite a few out there - over 25 for sure. But before I go through the work - is that a piece of interest? Perhaps we should create a separate thread to consider this and other ideas?
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 28, 2012, 07:21:27 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 28, 2012, 07:08:47 AM
I will add my thanks to the chorus of others for all the work put into this! I got many hours of entertainment as well as insight all for the cost of my time. Perhaps our families should be happy that we spent all our time listening instead of buying! Imagine all the money we saved! :)

I was also considering doing one of these in the future (probably next year), but was considering Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky. The reason is that most people have not heard more than a few and there are actually quite a few out there - over 25 for sure. But before I go through the work - is that a piece of interest? Perhaps we should create a separate thread to consider this and other ideas?

Glad you enjoyed it, Neal! :)
Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky?  8) Yes, I would be definitely up for that!!!! :) We have Brian's Gaspard da nuit in January, then I'll be hoping to do another Mahler after that. But how about you running the Prokofiev after that? Would be very exciting to compare many performances of 'Battle on the Ice'. :D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2012, 07:29:10 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 28, 2012, 06:45:54 AM
Hurwitz has limited value for me because he's all over the map, inconsistent even in most of his prejudices. For instance, he generally dislikes MTT/SFS, but every once in a while rates one of their recordings highly (though seldom with a 10/10).

Actually, that's proof he isn't prejudicial; it's proof he's listening with an open mind to each new recording...that even in a cycle he doesn't particularly like, he'll find gems. And that's been my experience with MTT. I hate his Second. I find his Seventh middling. I rather like his First.

I don't find any Mahler cycle 100% great or 100% bad. That's not inconsistency on my part; it's reality. No conductor does everything perfectly; no conductor does everything badly. Hurwitz reflects that reality.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Daverz on October 28, 2012, 04:23:13 PM
Some things that do bother me about Hurwitz:

1. The Horenstein vendetta
2. When he's a jerk, he's really a jerk, vulgar and petty.
3. He'll sometimes rate a dull recording highly because of orchestral execution.  I call this the "band geek" problem.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 28, 2012, 04:54:33 PM
Quote from: Daverz on October 28, 2012, 04:23:13 PM
3. He'll sometimes rate a dull recording highly because of orchestral execution.  I call this the "band geek" problem.
Forgetting who this was directed at, how can a recording be dull AND have orchestral execution? I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you talking about when an orchestra creates a beautiful sound, but does not 'get the music' or does not play 'the spirit of the music'? 
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Daverz on October 28, 2012, 05:23:06 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 28, 2012, 04:54:33 PM
Forgetting who this was directed at, how can a recording be dull AND have orchestral execution? I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you talking about when an orchestra creates a beautiful sound, but does not 'get the music' or does not play 'the spirit of the music'?

It seems to me that sometimes Hurwitz will rate a bland performance highly because he's impressed by the quality of orchestral execution or that the conductor got all the p's and q's in order.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: zauberflöte on October 28, 2012, 05:41:57 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 28, 2012, 04:54:33 PM
how can a recording be dull AND have orchestral execution?
Try listening to a bad Maazel performance.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 28, 2012, 06:49:30 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 28, 2012, 07:08:47 AM
I was also considering doing one of these in the future (probably next year), but was considering Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky. The reason is that most people have not heard more than a few and there are actually quite a few out there - over 25 for sure. But before I go through the work - is that a piece of interest? Perhaps we should create a separate thread to consider this and other ideas?
That would be a phenomenal work to consider in this game.

What a great conclusion! I am very, very impressed by Jansons' win - when trying to guess the identity of the conductor, I simply couldn't attribute such phenomenal Mahler conducting to Jansons. On the other hand, I knew Honeck, correctly guessed Solti and MTT, and am very glad I liked Abbado's so much. Claudio Abbado has been rising quite a lot in my estimation thanks to these GMG blind listening games! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2012, 04:33:18 AM
Quote from: Daverz on October 28, 2012, 04:23:13 PM
Some things that do bother me about Hurwitz:

1. The Horenstein vendetta

I don't think it's a vendetta. He's merely reporting negatively about recordings that actually aren't very good.  I hear the same things when I listen to Horenstein. My most recent acquistion is a CD of Nielsen 3 coupled with Sibelius 5. I was looking forward to it because I'm a Horenstein fan and those two symphonies are in my Top 5 of all time. But it's appalling, both in orchestral execution and conducting. I might never listen to it again. It makes Hurwitz's comments about other poor Horenstein performances perfectly understandable.

Sure, he thinks the British critical establishment overrates him, and that fuels Hurwitz's negativity . But he doesn't hate Horenstein. Hurwitz says, "My admiration for Horenstein's tireless championship of Bruckner and Mahler in Britain has always been tempered by what I actually hear on the recordings that have been preserved, whether live or in the studio."

I've heard many of the recordings he disses, and I agree with him. Horenstein and his orchestras could be incredibly sloppy, sounding often like amateurs; and his attempts--or non-attempts--to vary tempo within movements awkward.

But when he was good, he was great, and Hurwitz acknowledges that. For example:

A 9 rating for the Bruckner 5 ("Horenstein's Bruckner Fifth is, by and large, a terrific performance, played with tremendous authority and concentration by a clearly energized BBC Symphony Orchestra. Brass and timpani sound simply stupendous, and are captured in an amazingly lifelike live recording.")

A 9 rating for the Bruckner 9 ("Horenstein's Bruckner represents both a true victory of mind over matter, and an incandescent example of great conducting.")

Horenstein's Kindertotenlieder gets an 8 ("Jascha Horenstein's sensitive and passionate direction of the Kindertotenlieder....this truly is an important recording, not just for its self-evident musical accomplishments, but as the first example of Horenstein's lifelong, if not always happy, engagement with Mahler's music.")

The Hurwitzer gives Horenstein's Prokofiev a 7 ("He leads an engaging performance of the Chout ballet suite, presenting a vivid dramaturgy through the finely characterized playing of the Paris Philharmonia Orchestra. Lieutenant Kijé is finer still under Horenstein's brisk and energetic direction (particularly The Birth of Kijé, and Kijé's Wedding). No, it doesn't beat George Szell's classic recording with the Cleveland Orchestra, but it lends credence to Horenstein's storied reputation.")

He gives Horenstein's Dvorak Ninth an 8 and a long, detailed review (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6236/?search=1), pointing out the differences between his two (very good) recordings of the symphony.

In his 7/6 review of Das Lied he says "Jascha Horenstein deserves tremendous credit for his Mahlerian crusade in Britain in the 1950s, '60s, and '70s. But with hindsight, we can now see that he was seldom given the best working conditions or the best orchestras, and some "legendary" performances–the Third and Eighth Symphonies in particular–have dated. The same holds true for this Das Lied von der Erde. "

Not that they're bad performances, but that they've dated. Only a couple of us here would disagree with that, I think. Another critic, our own Jens, certainly agrees with Hurwitz. Jens wrote about why Horenstein wasn't included in his massive WETA Mahler marathon:

"There are older recordings [of the Third] that are much admired, too. They are not included because they cannot honestly compete with newer, better sounding versions. Rarity and nostalgia have made a very good interpretation like Horenstein's, for example, a mythical one."

I think these reviews prove the point I made in my reply to David. Hurwitz reviews each recording without prejudice. He praises Horenstein when he thinks he's good; he points out the reasons he thinks other recordings are bad. In other words, he's doing his job as a music critic. There is no vendetta.

Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: jlaurson on October 29, 2012, 05:45:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2012, 04:33:18 AM


Not that they're bad performances, but that they've dated. Only a couple of us here would disagree with that, I think. Another critic, our own Jens, certainly agrees with Hurwitz...

I should like to point out that that's entirely coincidental. I wouldn't want to be known, generally, as agreeing with Hurwitz. Although in this case, I suppose -- difficult though that is to fathom -- it's meant as a compliment. What's next: comparison to Midgette or Lebrecht? Yikes.  ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 29, 2012, 07:44:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2012, 07:29:10 AM
Actually, that's proof he isn't prejudicial; it's proof he's listening with an open mind to each new recording...that even in a cycle he doesn't particularly like, he'll find gems. And that's been my experience with MTT. I hate his Second. I find his Seventh middling. I rather like his First.

I don't find any Mahler cycle 100% great or 100% bad. That's not inconsistency on my part; it's reality. No conductor does everything perfectly; no conductor does everything badly. Hurwitz reflects that reality.
Well there's a big "duh," Sarge. ;)
I believe that Hurwitz's comments about MTT's Mahler (he's reviewed several of the recordings) betray a prejudice--that is, a pre-existing belief that conditions his perceptions. He imagines that MTT is fussy, interventionist, inserting inappropriate mannerisms that interfere with the music--so when his prejudices are foremost, he listens for things to reinforce them, rather than listening with an open mind.

That's what I value most about these blind comparisons--the opportunity to hear things without knowing or caring WHO the performers are. And I'm gratified to find that this final round offering the entire performances both affirmed my feelings about the performances I'm familiar with (MTT, Abbado, Honeck) and alerted me to the virtues of performances that my prejudices suggested would not be so appealing (Jansons & especially Solti).

And unlike you, Sarge, I enjoy the complete cycles of several conductors--especially Boulez, Bernstein, Gielen, Sinopoli, & MTT.

Edit: & let's add Kubelik, Bertini, and Chailly to that batch whose cycles are uniformly good (noting, of course, that none are uniformly GREAT.) ;)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: jlaurson on October 29, 2012, 08:26:04 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 29, 2012, 07:44:29 AM
Well there's a big "duh," Sarge. ;)
I believe that Hurwitz's comments about MTT's Mahler (he's reviewed several of the recordings) betray a prejudice--that is, a pre-existing belief that conditions his perceptions. He imagines that MTT is fussy, interventionist, inserting inappropriate mannerisms that interfere with the music--so when his prejudices are foremost, he listens for things to reinforce them, rather than listening with an open mind.

That's what I value most about these blind comparisons--the opportunity to hear things without knowing or caring WHO the performers are. And I'm gratified to find that this final round offering the entire performances both affirmed my feelings about the performances I'm familiar with (MTT, Abbado, Honeck) and alerted me to the virtues of performances that my prejudices suggested would not be so appealing (Jansons & especially Solti).

And unlike you, Sarge, I enjoy the complete cycles of several conductors--especially Boulez, Bernstein, Gielen, Sinopoli, & MTT.

I have prejudices generally (everyone does), and esp. reg. Jansons, but I'd like to think that I can (though not necessarily) overcome them. That's easier in concert, when the impression is more immediate and inescapable and when the review the next day forces you to evaluate, if you haven't already. Jansons Mahler live (in Amsterdam and Munich) usually disappoints me, but one day, in the Sixth of all Symphonies (he has three less-than-hot recordings of it), he let rip: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/ionarts-at-large-jansons-mahler-six.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/ionarts-at-large-jansons-mahler-six.html) I was completely taken by (happy) surprise, as was the orchestra.

I must have the Jansons 1st somewhere -- and must re-listen. Perhaps I was asleep at the wheel. (I did appreciate Honeck very much -- did I even point Sarge in that directon? -- and also MTT, who I thought on par as delivering the best SACD version, alongside the new Chicago Haitink. Abbado I may not have taken seriously (though I should have, after finding the similarish 5th quite good, in its unassuming ways) and Solti / Chicago I didn't have (and don't) -- only the London recording which I think is rather pointless. I value Boulez' 1st almost as much as his 5th, but he apparently floundered in an earlier round.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 29, 2012, 10:41:40 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 29, 2012, 07:44:29 AM
That's what I value most about these blind comparisons--the opportunity to hear things without knowing or caring WHO the performers are. And I'm gratified to find that this final round offering the entire performances both affirmed my feelings about the performances I'm familiar with (MTT, Abbado, Honeck) and alerted me to the virtues of performances that my prejudices suggested would not be so appealing (Jansons & especially Solti).
Agreed. I know that I'd like to say "oh I am totally unprejudiced with orchestras/conductors" but there is always a chance that, for instance, knowing the Brussels Philharmonic was in the final round for Debussy, competing with Cleveland and others, would incline me to say "the orchestra isn't as good as the rest." In this example, I'm shocked because like Jens I had always been left somewhat cold by Jansons. These games rock!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2012, 11:14:16 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 29, 2012, 07:44:29 AM
I believe that Hurwitz's comments about MTT's Mahler (he's reviewed several of the recordings) betray a prejudice--that is, a pre-existing belief that conditions his perceptions. He imagines that MTT is fussy, interventionist, inserting inappropriate mannerisms that interfere with the music--so when his prejudices are foremost, he listens for things to reinforce them, rather than listening with an open mind.

I don't know how you know what Hurwitz "imagines" prior to listening to anything. Do you have a link to his brain?  ;D  I have no idea where you get the idea he's not listening with an open mind. The reviews themselves belie that belief.

Knowing the characteristics of a conductor's style, and then finding those characteristics in a recording, is not the same as being prejudiced. Expecting those characteristics isn't showing prejudice either (in the negative sense of the word). It's simply expecting an artist to have a consistent style. Damning every recording because of those characteristics would show prejudice, I think. Assigning a score before listening would definitely be a sign of prejudice  :D  But he doesn't do either of those things to MTT (or anyone else I'm aware of. See my post about Horenstein). His MTT scores exhibit range and change with each recording reviewed.


1 - 9/10
2 - 9/9
3 - 7/9
4 - 10/10
5 - 7/7
6 - 7/8
7 - 8/8
7 - 9/9 (LSO)
8 - 8/8
9 - 9/9
DLVDE - 6/9
Klagende - 10/9
Songs - 6/9


You assert that "his prejudices are foremost, he listens for things to reinforce them, rather than listening with an open mind" and that creates negative reviews. Well, yes, he listens for certain things, but when those things are done well (in his opinion) he says so. For example, the First

"This fresh and exciting performance of Mahler's First Symphony reveals MTT and his orchestra on largely top form. Unlike the mannered and heavy-handed Sixth from these same forces, this piece adapts well to the conductor's interventionist approach."

and the DLvdE:

"This performance has two big assets and one huge liability. The assets are Stuart Skelton's really heroic performance of the tenor part, and Michael Tilson Thomas' excellent conducting of a supremely responsive San Francisco Symphony... MTT's Mahler sometimes suffers from mannered phrasing, but here he proves himself supremely sensitive to his singers, and well able to project the subtleties of Mahler's orchestration.

So yes, he's not surprised that these performances are characteristic of MTT's general style in Mahler, and no, it doesn't lessen his admiration for the performances. In fact, he thinks they are wonderful (with the exception of Hampson in DLvdE, the sole reason Hurwitz gave it a lower score). In fact, the majority of his MTT Mahler reviews are positive, with 9 of 13 receiving an 8 or higher. Where's the prejudice?

Quote from: DavidRoss on October 29, 2012, 07:44:29 AM
And unlike you, Sarge, I enjoy the complete cycles of several conductors--especially Boulez, Bernstein, Gielen, Sinopoli, & MTT.

No Mahler cycle is perfect. The one I like the most for consistency is Chailly, but I think his Second a dud...so, not perfect. Bernstein and Gielen employ dreadful singers in their Fourths. They aren't perfect either. But I believe there's a difference between liking a cycle as a whole and saying that each symphony in the cycle deserves a 10/10 rating and shouldn't be criticized at all. Hurwitz would be a piss poor critic if he gave every MTT Mahler recording in the cycle a 10/10. (I know that's what you, David, want him to do...but you're showing your Left Coast prejudice there :D )

As far as I know, Hurwitz has never given any of Mahler cycle perfect scores for each of the symphonies. But he has given complete cycles a 10 (Bertini, Gielen, Bernstein/Sony), and that makes sense to me. One or two duds shouldn't disqualify a entire cycle, when viewed as a whole, from a great rating.


Sarge
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Daverz on October 29, 2012, 11:50:55 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2012, 04:33:18 AM
I don't think it's a vendetta. He's merely reporting negatively about recordings that actually aren't very good. 

What I'm talking about has nothing really to do with the actual quality of the recordings, but with the way Hurwitz expresses himself and goes out of his way to make sure everyone -- including IIRC Horenstein fans and relatives on the Horenstein listserv -- knows that Horenstein stank, and they're deluded fools if they don't realize this.  And this is not the only case in which he'll attack the fans of the conductor or artist.

And it goes along with the "Kathleen Ferrier as fruit basket" stuff, that is obviously just trying to get a rise out of people in the most childish way imaginable.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 30, 2012, 12:07:40 AM
Grown ups fighting over critics, conductors and music. What's wrong with you, guys? I think Sarge's point is as good as it gets. Anyone here thinks he's better than Hurwitz? Anyone more prejudice-free? This thread is becoming a war against Hurwitz. C'mon guys... Praise Daniel for his effort and stop fighting. The long journey has ended well and we all should have a big smile on our faces. It was a beautiful experience. :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on October 30, 2012, 01:58:50 AM
ummm...

i just heard farberman's M1 and it's really great.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Brian on October 30, 2012, 04:43:09 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on October 30, 2012, 12:07:40 AM
Grown ups fighting over critics, conductors and music. What's wrong with you, guys? I think Sarge's point is as good as it gets. Anyone here thinks he's better than Hurwitz? Anyone more prejudice-free? This thread is becoming a war against Hurwitz. C'mon guys... Praise Daniel for his effort and stop fighting. The long journey has ended well and we all should have a big smile on our faces. It was a beautiful experience. :)
Agreed. We can all argue about Hurwitz ad infinitum (and, in many cases, never quite rise above his level), but the real point here is, this game was fantastic, it was a load of fun, Daniel took good care of us, and I enjoyed some very happy surprises. Cheers! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 30, 2012, 04:45:15 AM
Thank you! I'm really glad you enjoyed it, it was a pleasure to put together! :)

Hope you will enjoy the Berlioz too! I'm really glad to see that so many of you have signed up for that too! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on October 30, 2012, 05:02:26 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on October 30, 2012, 12:07:40 AM
Grown ups fighting over critics, conductors and music. What's wrong with you, guys? I think Sarge's point is as good as it gets. Anyone here thinks he's better than Hurwitz? Anyone more prejudice-free? This thread is becoming a war against Hurwitz. C'mon guys... Praise Daniel for his effort and stop fighting. The long journey has ended well and we all should have a big smile on our faces. It was a beautiful experience. :)
Fighting? Who's fighting? People are just expressing their opinions. I don't think Hurwitz warrants the time it would require to read through his reviews and cite passages showing that he is prejudiced and inconsistent regarding MTT.  But even if I did, Sarge and I still would not be fighting, but only offering conflicting opinions.

Fighting does erupt around here sometimes, but far less often than it used to. Don't worry, you'll recognize it when you see it! ;)

And if you stick around you'll soon discover that Hurwitz-bashing is a faorite pastime at GMG (and every similar site I know) and that many folks here (and elsewhere) are easily able to "do better" -- and several do! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Beale on October 30, 2012, 05:20:39 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 30, 2012, 05:02:26 AM
And if you stick around you'll soon discover that Hurwitz-bashing is a faorite pastime at GMG (and every similar site I know) and that many folks here (and elsewhere) are easily able to "do better" -- and several do! :)

If only I know this earlier ... well, lets hope GMG is kinder to March, Greenfield and Layton.  :D
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 30, 2012, 06:17:05 AM
Quote from: Beale on October 30, 2012, 05:20:39 AM
If only I know this earlier ... well, lets hope GMG is kinder to March, Greenfield and Layton.  :D
Reviewers take a beating - part of the job. If they are successful in the business (regardless of whether they are good reviews or not), they write so much that it is inevitable they will write something with which someone disagrees. Hurwitz is at least characterful - check out his (insane 9-page) review on Norrington's Mahler. Oh, but get out the popcorn first - you'll need it (one way or another)! :)
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: Daverz on November 01, 2012, 01:18:38 AM
Quote from: Beale on October 30, 2012, 05:20:39 AM
If only I know this earlier ... well, lets hope GMG is kinder to March, Greenfield and Layton.  :D

I'd take Hurwitz over those deaf old bats any day.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on November 01, 2012, 01:41:48 PM
lol
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on November 06, 2012, 09:54:56 AM
Last Saturday I listened to Lenny's DGG M1 -- the whole thing -- and loved it. Today I listened to Kubelik's DGG M1 -- the whole thing -- and loved it. But neither recording fared well when I was listening to sample clips and comparing them with other sample clips during this survey. Evaluating a symphony performance by snippets is like evaluating a potential life partner based on seeing his/her tax return from 2004, left ankle, dental records, and 6th grade citizenship report.

That is not to devalue the exercise, only to contextualize it. Wholes may not only be greater than the sum of their parts, but the parts might not even offer a reliable guide to the big picture.

This exercise has not caused me to dismiss any of my old faves even if they fared poorly. However, it did cause me to purchase two M1s I never would have considered otherwise -- Norrington & Solti/CSO -- and to schedule an attentive hearing for Jansons's M1 and all his other Mahler discs, too.

Heretofore I've been lukewarm toward Jansons's Mahler, regarding it similar to Chailly's Mahler, finding little to fault with it, but also little that's exciting (having heard only Jansons's RCO 1 & 5, LSO 6, & Oslo 9). But hearing his M1 along with the other final 4 was exciting and I rated it virtually tied for top place with the only one of my tried & true faves to make the final five (MTT).

All of this makes me wonder just how relevant such exercises are to our normal listening habits. When I listen normally, especially to a piece that I know and love, I sit back in a highly receptive frame of mind, willing the music to carry me away with it. But when I am listening "critically," I'm picking and choosing certain elements to focus my attention on -- usually things that are easy to isolate and describe -- and in the process I might be unable to grasp the gestalt of the work. Maslow's marvelous hammer and nail analogy applies.

Still, it's been a useful and entertaining exercise. I'm grateful to Daniel for setting it up, grateful to the other participants for their comments, and I look forward to the next one!
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: xochitl on November 06, 2012, 02:43:24 PM
the thing i learned with this exercise is that the recordings i respond to more let me [no, make me] put my critical mind away and just enjoy the music.

if i'm nitpicking and comparing as i listen i probably wont hear it again
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: aukhawk on November 07, 2012, 03:29:34 AM
Having only two oldish versions in my collection - Solti/LSO (which wasn't in the comparison, but I still like it) and Bernstein on DGG (which I don't like very much) - having read through this thread I recently bought the Honeck, and am very glad I did. 
The 1st movement is a real eye-opener, radically changed my view of this music.  I probably still prefer Solti in the remaining 3 movements, but the sound on the newer recording is just luxurious and for me, that's quite an important consideration in the Mahler 'sound world'.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: DavidRoss on November 07, 2012, 06:48:24 AM
Hello, aukhawk (Frankie?). I'm pleased to make your acquaintance and to welcome you to GMG. And I hope you'll stick around to participate in Daniel's next Mahler comparison ... or the Sibelius comparison, if he decides to do one of those first.
Title: Re: Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1
Post by: aukhawk on November 07, 2012, 07:07:23 AM
Ooh, yes please  <thumbs up>