You can explain your reasons for choosing the specific villain/s, if you like.
Shakespeare: Claudius, Iago, Macbeth, Lady Macbeth, King John
Dickens: Bradley Headstone, James Steerforth, Silas Wegg, Rogue Riderhood, Mr. Merdle, Henry Gowan, Madame Defarge, Miss Havisham, Fagin, Sir John Chester
Tolkien: Fëanor, Glaurung
Dostoyevsky: Raskolnikov, Svidrigailov, Smerdyakov, Fyodor Karamazov
Hugo: Claude Frollo, Phoebus, Javert, Lantenac, Cimourdain
Thomas Mann: Bendix Grünlich
Fitzgerald: Tom and Daisy Buchanan, Braddock Tarleton Washington
Goethe: Mephistopheles
Melville: Captain Ahab
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: James Moriarty, Sebastian Moran
Marlowe: Barabas
Alexandre Dumas pére: Danglars, Villefort, Edmond Dantés
R. L. Stevenson: Long John Silver
Verne: Ayrton, Nemo
Adding scifi too:
Zahn: Grand Admiral Thrawn
Herbert: Baron Harkonnen
Nice thread!
For Dickens I'd add Mr Murdstone from David Copperfield, especially for inflicting the evil 'Double-Gloucester cheese' maths problem on Davy. Uriah Heep, in the same novel is also good value as is 'Wackford Squeers' in Nicholas Nickleby and Madame de Farge and Monsieur le Marquis in 'A Tale of Two Cities'.
In Sherlock Holmes: Charles Augustus Milverton is especially unpleasant but gets his just deserts.
Clearly it's Shakespeare's Iago. It's in the subtlety. Iago works up Othello to a frenzy of jealousy by continuously protesting that Desdemona is true to him in a manner that inexplicably sows doubt.
Lermontov's Pechorin - Villain? Victim? Superfluous Man? If he's the first of those then he's also my favourite.
e: regardless, at least he had the balls to live they way he wanted - and made no excuses.
Quote from: San Antone on December 18, 2018, 03:10:57 PM
Boyd Crowder - "Fire in the Hole" (Elmore Leonard). Charming bad guy who is an old friend with the U.S. Marshall tasked with catching him.
Anton Chigurh - No Country for Old Men (Cormac McCarthy). Any bad guy who uses a captive bolt gun to kill (as well as knock out several locks) has to get my vote.
Judge Holden - Blood Meridian or The Evening Redness in the West (Cormac McCarthy). An enormous, pale, and hairless man, who often seems almost mythical or supernatural. Possessing peerless knowledge and talent in everything from dance to legal argument, Holden is a dedicated examiner and recorder of the natural world and a supremely violent and perverted character. Gotta love him.
I certainly agree with your middle choice although I've only seen the film.
Quote from: vandermolen on December 18, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Nice thread!
For Dickens I'd add Mr Murdstone from David Copperfield, especially for inflicting the evil 'Double-Gloucester cheese' maths problem on Davy. Uriah Heep, in the same novel is also good value as is 'Wackford Squeers' in Nicholas Nickleby and Madame de Farge and Monsieur le Marquis in 'A Tale of Two Cities'.
In Sherlock Holmes: Charles Augustus Milverton is especially unpleasant but gets his just deserts.
I found most of the 'good' characters in Nicholas Nickleby insufferable and only had any sympathy for Ralph Nickleby. Mr Tulkinghorn in Bleak House is possibly the most chilling character in the whole of Dickens.
I have only seen the TV adaptation but agree that Charles Augustus Milverton, memorably played by Robert Hardy, is repulsive.
Quote from: vandermolen on December 18, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Nice thread!
For Dickens I'd add Mr Murdstone from David Copperfield, especially for inflicting the evil 'Double-Gloucester cheese' maths problem on Davy. Uriah Heep, in the same novel is also good value as is 'Wackford Squeers' in Nicholas Nickleby and Madame de Farge and Monsieur le Marquis in 'A Tale of Two Cities'.
In Sherlock Holmes: Charles Augustus Milverton is especially unpleasant but gets his just deserts.
Great examples (though I have not yet read Milverton Sherlock Holmes story)! Murdstone had a strong effect on me when I first read the book because I had to deal with a similar sort of situation at that time.
My favourite villain in literature is a character in Proust called Clarles Morrel -- he's so realistic, the nature of his vice is so realistic, I've known a couple of people who would behave just like him given half a chance.
It's years since I've read it but I remember being really impressed by Madame Merle in Henry James's Portrait of a Lady.
And, if you like more stereotyped and unbelievable villains, there's JHWH in The Book of Job -- what a bastard he is!
Quote from: Alberich on December 19, 2018, 04:27:27 AM
Great examples (though I have not yet read Milverton Sherlock Holmes story)! Murdstone had a strong effect on me when I first read the book because I had to deal with a similar sort of situation at that time.
Oh, how horrible for you. Sorry to hear that.
Quote from: Biffo on December 19, 2018, 04:16:21 AM
I found most of the 'good' characters in Nicholas Nickleby insufferable and only had any sympathy for Ralph Nickleby. Mr Tulkinghorn in Bleak House is possibly the most chilling character in the whole of Dickens.
I have only seen the TV adaptation but agree that Charles Augustus Milverton, memorably played by Robert Hardy, is repulsive.
Yes, in A Tale of Two Cities I find Lucy Manette, the heroine of the novel , to be rather too drippy to inspire all that passion in others. I do remember the sinister Mr Tulkington from the TV adaptation of Bleak House.
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2018, 08:40:15 AM
Oh, how horrible for you. Sorry to hear that.
Thanks! Don't worry, there wasn't any physical violence unlike with poor David.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 19, 2018, 07:16:20 AM
My favourite villain in literature is a character in Proust called Clarles Morrel -- he's so realistic, the nature of his vice is so realistic, I've known a couple of people who would behave just like him given half a chance.
...
+1, and you've described him very well. An opportunist, a snob, and a coward, but also with a strange fascination.
I read somewhere (but can't remember the source now for the life of me) that
Georges Enesco didn't like
À la recherche..., because he thought that character of Morel might have been partially based on him. Seems unlikely, though, as many descriptions of Enesco are almost saintly-like...
Quote from: ritter on December 19, 2018, 09:31:26 AM
+1, and you've described him very well. An opportunist, a snob, and a coward, but also with a strange fascination.
I read somewhere (but can't remember the source now for the life of me) that Georges Enesco didn't like À la recherche..., because he thought that character of Morel might have been partially based on him. Seems unlikely, though, as many descriptions of Enesco are almost saintly-like...
It's true that Charles was a violinist, a talented one, like Enescu. However Morel was seducing young girls and then passing them on to Albertine for her to have her way with them, all the time telling poor old Charlus, dear Charlus, that he was spending his time taking Algebra lessons.
What about Iago, with his nasty racism and sexual jealousy? When I was at school they tried to tell us that he was a sort of Tudor trope, a stereotype of vice, but the older I get the more I see that he's quite realistic. Othello seems quite realistic to me too, stupid, gullible, violent.
The Tenardiers are also worth thinking about for realism.
Same as in film thread of the same question:
Vicomte de Valmont and
Marquise de Merteuil from Laclos'
Les Liaisons dangereuses, especially the vicomte.
Other interesting (rather than favourite) villains:
Flem Snopes and the rest of the Snopes from multiple books by Faulkner. More like a cancer or infestation than a human family. Scary.
Naphta from Mann's
Magic Mountain isn't really a villain, more a tempter, but fascinating character. Similarly
Woland from Nabokov's
Master and Margarita.
Humbert Humbert from
Lolita. Both protagonist and a villain, and deluding himself that he is not. Also his antagonist, the supremely creepy
Clare Quilty.
I'll third
Charles Morrel.
Quote from: NikF on December 18, 2018, 04:27:20 PM
Lermontov's Pechorin - Villain? Victim? Superfluous Man? If he's the first of those then he's also my favourite.
e: regardless, at least he had the balls to live they way he wanted - and made no excuses.
Onegin falls in that category, and probably also
Lord Henry from
The Picture of Dorian Grey.
Excuse me editing your post to the nth degree - although I usually enjoy reading your posts as whole -
QuoteOnegin falls in that category, and probably also Lord Henry from The Picture of Dorian Grey.
Absolutely, yes.
Cheers, mate. 8)
Quote from: Draško on December 20, 2018, 04:00:09 AM
Naphta from Mann's Magic Mountain isn't really a villain, more a tempter, but fascinating character.
I almost mentioned Naphta myself but didn't consider him really a villain either. Although, now that I think about it, I don't know if I would call Grünlich villain either. His worst deeds are some property crimes and being aloof husband and gold digger. Pretty standard. Merdle kind of too but I included him because he is more large-scale and his intense guilt both makes him a villain and makes me feel sympathy towards him. So it's kind of a double-edged sword, morally speaking.
The Judge from Blood Meridian (but like other Cormac McCarthy villains, he comes across as some sort of otherworldly force rather than a real human being)
Kurtz from Heart of Darkness
Humbert from Lolita
Obersturmbannführer Dominus Blicero from Gravity's Rainbow
'Mrs Danvers' in Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier has an especially morbid fascination (brilliantly played by Judith Anderson in the Hitchcock film).
Oscar Wilde's Dorian Gray is an especially repulsive character although outwardly beautiful. I guess this is the point of the novel ::)
I think Rebecca" is one of the cases where the movie is better than the book. This almost never happens with great literature but is not so infrequent with middle brow stuff (which du Maurier probably is, if barely so).
A flamboyant villain not mentioned yet is Count Fosco from Collins' "The woman in white"
Quote from: Jo498 on December 20, 2018, 01:20:46 PM
I think Rebecca" is one of the cases where the movie is better than the book. This almost never happens with great literature but is not so infrequent with middle brow stuff (which du Maurier probably is, if barely so).
A flamboyant villain not mentioned yet is Count Fosco from Collins' "The woman in white"
You could be right about Rebecca but I greatly enjoyed the book as well which, unusually for me, I have read twice.
I did not dislike the book although it is probably decades ago that I read, as a teenager I think. I don't even remember if I had seen the movie first (likely) or the other way round. The book is certainly better than the only other du Maurier I read (My Cousin Rachel).
Ian Fleming: Auric Goldfinger (even if the film version of him is vastly superior), Rosa Klebb and Red Grant, Ernst Stavro Blofeld, Le Chiffre.
Quote from: Alberich on December 29, 2018, 09:57:30 AM
Ian Fleming: Auric Goldfinger (even if the film version of him is vastly superior), Rosa Klebb and Red Grant, Ernst Stavro Blofeld, Le Chiffre.
Rosa Klebb gets my vote view. In the film brilliantly portrayed by Lotte Lenya, the wife of Kurt Weill.
Baron Vladimir Harkonnen from Dune. Claudius from Hamlet. Cathy from East of Eden (Steinbeck was criticized for having a character who was the embodiment of >:D >:D >:D >:D but I dug it.)
I like Claudius because of ambivalence. Sure, there is little doubt that he is the villain of the play. He may not be a good person but he may be a good king. In his very first scene he handles foreign affairs effectively. He seems to feel remorse even if he cannot truly repent and make amends, plus he loves Gertrude. I read somewhere a pretty convincing opinion that from Claudius's point of view the entire play is almost like Macbeth.
Quote from: vandermolen on December 29, 2018, 12:58:10 PM
Rosa Klebb gets my vote view. In the film brilliantly portrayed by Lotte Lenya, the wife of Kurt Weill.
Technically she had been his widow for more than 10 years by the time of "From Russia with Love" and already survived a second husband (as she was to survive a third one)... And Lenya and Weill were also separated or even divorced for some time in the mid-1930s and later remarried (par for the course for 1920s-30s Bohème I guess...)
Another fascinatiing villain is the narrator in "The killer inside me". This is not a first of its kind, there are already several mad villain first person narrators in Poe (Tell-tale heart) but it is very well done.
Quote from: Alberich on January 02, 2019, 07:58:01 AM
I like Claudius because of ambivalence. Sure, there is little doubt that he is the villain of the play. He may not be a good person but he may be a good king. In his very first scene he handles foreign affairs effectively. He seems to feel remorse even if he cannot truly repent and make amends, plus he loves Gertrude. I read somewhere a pretty convincing opinion that from Claudius's point of view the entire play is almost like Macbeth.
Quite right. The play is fascinating because it's kind of hard to pin many of the characters down...
One thing I enjoyed in my recent listen of the audio-play by Branagh is when the witty gravedigger gives Hamlet a taste of his own medicine re banter!
I like Sauron from Lord of the Rings. Never quite figured out how he missed a gang of hobbits trying to make their way to Mt. Doom.
In a couple of novels by William Golding, the main character is also (often very subtly) the villain; making for a growingly uncomfortable identification that makes you wonder about ourselves. My favourite is the artist Sammy Mountjoy in Free Fall (1959).
It wasn't a gang, only two of them. And he was focussed first on Saruman via the Palantir and after this was taken and mastered by Aragorn on this heir of Isildur. There are plotholes in LotR (e.g. Weathertop) but this is not a major one.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 02, 2019, 04:11:08 PM
I like Sauron from Lord of the Rings. Never quite figured out how he missed a gang of hobbits trying to make their way to Mt. Doom.
I like Sauron too, however not Sauron from Lord of the Rings but Sauron from Silmarillion. Yes, same character but Sauron is much more fleshed out in Silmarillion. He doesn't even appear in Lord of the Rings, despite being the title character.
yes. Sauron is rather anonymous in LotR (not a problem for me as the book has another focus). Most interesting would be Sauron in a more elaborate account of the Fall of Numenor but I think there is only the rather brief one included in the Silmarillion. (Maybe there is more in History of Middle Earth but all this stuff is sketchy.)
Another Fitzgerald villain, Pat Brady. The hilarious part when his daughter Celia finds out Brady had stuffed his mistress temporarily in the closet in the middle of a workday stays vivid in my mind.
'Villanelle' from the book and film 'Killing Eve' (brilliantly played by Jodie Comer) also comes to mind. I've only seen the TV series.
(//)
Quote from: Jo498 on January 03, 2019, 12:36:39 AM
It wasn't a gang, only two of them. And he was focussed first on Saruman via the Palantir and after this was taken and mastered by Aragorn on this heir of Isildur. There are plotholes in LotR (e.g. Weathertop) but this is not a major one.
They started out with 4.
Weathertop is a gaping plot hole in my opinion. The Ring Wraiths KNEW Frodo had the Ring. How were they not able to trak the Hobbits later on ?
Quote from: Alberich on January 03, 2019, 12:49:26 AM
I like Sauron too, however not Sauron from Lord of the Rings but Sauron from Silmarillion. Yes, same character but Sauron is much more fleshed out in Silmarillion. He doesn't even appear in Lord of the Rings, despite being the title character.
I think Peter Jackson gave him more substance with the glowing, flaming, lidless eye than Tolkien ever did.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 04, 2019, 06:08:57 PM
They started out with 4.
Weathertop is a gaping plot hole in my opinion. The Ring Wraiths KNEW Frodo had the Ring. How were they not able to trak the Hobbits later on ?
I think Peter Jackson gave him more substance with the glowing, flaming, lidless eye than Tolkien ever did.
Defeat at the Ford set them back severely, as the book specifically notes. After that, Frodo with the Ring was effectively hidden from Sauron in Rivendell and Lothlorien, and ( by implication )while passing through Moria. And Sauron had no way to tell if Frodo had, willingly or not, given the Ring to Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel, or Aragorn, as long as it was not used. As noted, the wars with Saruman and Gondor distracted him, as did the business of the Palantir. It wasn't until Frodo claimed the Ring for himself that Sauron had a chance to home in on the Ring's location.
Jackson may have amplified the Eye, but it is referred to very specifically by JRRT. It is possible to read the references to the Eye as metaphor, but the Eye is an important feature: Frodo several times senses it trying to search out the location of the Ring.
My own favorite villians
Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility
Bosola in the Duchess of Malfi (perhaps he qualifies as an antihero, not a villian)
Saruman
Has the Shrike been mentioned? That is one scary dude right there.
Not forgetting Heathcliff surely.
Another of mine is Montoni in The Mysteries of Udolpho, a man full of wicked schemes.
Since someone mentioned Count Fosco, I would mention from Wilkie Collins villains Captain Wragge and Godfrey Ablewhite.
And whilst thinking of Radcliffe, not forgetting the monk Schedoni.
As quoted on the back cover of the Oxford World Classic edition of The Italian:
'His figure was striking, but not so from grace. . . and as he stalked along, wrapt in the black garments of his order, there was something terrible in its air; something almost super-human.'
Richard III in the Shakespeare Play - I like his style. Mostly, he's your typical Machiavel, but his successful courtship of Lady Anne shows how evil can be tremendously attractive - well-illustrated in Olivier's film.
Balzac's Vautrin - he's already in my eyes one of the greatest villains of all time and I haven't even read Splendeurs et misères des courtisanes halfway through yet. Plus he appears in other novels by Balzac as well, which I haven't yet even touched.
Three Russians
Raskolnikov
Prince Valkovsky
Marmeladov
and an Englishman
Adolf Verloc
Adding another character from The Great Gatsby, Meyer Wolfsheim. He's such a brilliant character.
Quote from: Florestan on January 22, 2019, 11:10:37 AM
Three Russians
Raskolnikov
Prince Valkovsky
Marmeladov
and an Englishman
Adolf Verloc
Florestan, if you have the time and inclination, what are your thoughts on Pechorin from A Hero of our Time hy
Lermontov?
Quote from: NikF4 on March 13, 2019, 11:18:15 AM
Florestan, if you have the time and inclination, what are your thoughts on Pechorin from A Hero of our Time hy Lermontov?
I will have to read it first. :D
Quote from: Florestan on March 13, 2019, 11:49:08 AM
I will have to read it first. :D
Don't shatter my illusions! :o
Nah, if/when you get around to reading it, do let me know your thoughts - because you're clearly not afraid to state them. 8)
Quote from: NikF4 on March 13, 2019, 11:52:43 AM
Don't shatter my illusions! :o
Nah, if/when you get around to reading it, do let me know your thoughts - because you're clearly not afraid to state them. 8)
Will do.
Marmeladov is not villain, is he? The second villain in Crime and Punishment is Svidrigailov, I'd say.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 13, 2019, 12:22:17 PM
Marmeladov is not villain, is he? The second villain in Crime and Punishment is Svidrigailov, I'd say.
Marmeladov isn't a villain, he's a pathetically weak drunk. Svidrigailov is the principal villain.
While we're on Dostoyevsky: Smerdyakov (and Fyodor) in
Brothers Karamazov, Peter Verkhovensky and Nikolai Stavrogin in
Devils, Peter is particularly odious, Rogozhin in
The Idiot.
Hugo: Claude Frollo is vile in The Hunchback, Thernadier in Les Miserables.
Frollo is vile but he is also a complex character; he really cared for Quasimodo when he was young (and he is also too charitable towards his lazy partying brother. He is a Faustian character with his alchemy obsessions and basically driven insane by lust and jealousy.
Milo Minderbinder in Catch-22. Villainous and funny.
Quote from: Florestan on March 13, 2019, 12:04:02 PM
Will do.
Cool. 8) Seriously, if you have the time to read it (even just the 'Princess Mary' section) your thoughts would be interesting, due in part that you're one of the posters in this forum who has the balls to share your opinion on stuff, seemingly unbridled. ;D
Quote from: NikF4 on March 13, 2019, 06:02:15 PM
Cool. 8) Seriously, if you have the time to read it (even just the 'Princess Mary' section) your thoughts would be interesting, due in part that you're one of the posters in this forum who has the balls to share your opinion on stuff, seemingly unbridled. ;D
Why, thanks, I'll try to oblige asap. 8)
Quote from: BasilValentine on March 13, 2019, 01:27:01 PM
Marmeladov isn't a villain, he's a pathetically weak drunk. Svidrigailov is the principal villain.
While we're on Dostoyevsky: Smerdyakov (and Fyodor) in Brothers Karamazov, Peter Verkhovensky and Nikolai Stavrogin in Devils, Peter is particularly odious, Rogozhin in The Idiot.
Hugo: Claude Frollo is vile in The Hunchback, Thernadier in Les Miserables.
I second the Stavrogin mention. The most evil and best written character I've ever read.
I should get back to reading Dostoevsky. I again realized that I never got through any of the earlier novels and novellas (like Poor people, Humiliated and Insulted etc.) as I had to google Valkovsky although I read all of the "big ones" and several of them twice.
Quote from: Alberich on December 18, 2018, 06:51:43 AM
Alexandre Dumas pére: Danglars, Villefort, Edmond Dantés
Edmond Dantés, a villain? And more, as villain as Villefort? No way.
Stendahl: Le Rouge et le Noir (Scarlet and Black) - how do you find a villain in a book where all the main characters are equally obnoxious? Still a gripping read though.
Quote from: Florestan on March 14, 2019, 01:14:13 AM
Edmond Dantés, a villain? And more, as villain as Villefort? No way.
He manipulates Villeforts wife to poison almost Villeforts entire family, including children. And he saves Valentin only because Morrel is In love with her. And then he has the nerve to receive their thanks conveniently leaving to his last cowardly letter to tell that Valentines little brother is dead and conveniently leaving unmentioned that it is his fault that her brother is dead. He hurt lots of innocent people. I find him worse than Villefort.
Reynaert in Van den vos Reynaerde.
Vicomt de Valmont in [Les Liasions dangereuses[/I] by Choderlos de Laclos.
Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë.
Caligula in De nadagen van Pilatus (The Aftermath of Pilate) by Simon Vestdijk.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 13, 2019, 02:12:30 PM
Frollo is vile but he is also a complex character; he really cared for Quasimodo when he was young (and he is also too charitable towards his lazy partying brother. He is a Faustian character with his alchemy obsessions and basically driven insane by lust and jealousy.
While I agree completely with you, ironically, Goethe called Notre Dame (he read it shortly before his death) "the most horrible book ever written" so he probably wouldn't have liked comparing Frollo to Faust :D I can never forgive Goethe that remark, as magnificent writer as he is >:D
Let's say Archdeacon Frollo is a penny dreadful version of Faust. There are clearly parallels: He is a scholar of all four medieval faculties, he is an alchemist, hinted to be in league with the devil, also because of his strange relation with the Hunchback whom the people of Paris despise. And even without a love potion he becomes completely obsessed with Esmeralda.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 14, 2019, 05:53:53 AM
Let's say Archdeacon Frollo is a penny dreadful version of Faust. There are clearly parallels: He is a scholar of all four medieval faculties, he is an alchemist, hinted to be in league with the devil, also because of his strange relation with the Hunchback whom the people of Paris despise. And even without a love potion he becomes completely obsessed with Esmeralda.
Agreed. Wouldn't be surprised if Hugo was influenced by Goethe (well, the second part of Faust was published only around the same time as Notre Dame but there is Part one which came out in 1808).
There was an earlier tradition of Faust stories and may be some common sources for both Goethe and Hugo. I don't know what Hugo's sources were and how generally fanciful or basically correct his account of 1482 Paris is.
While I must have seen a movie or two years ago, I actually read Notre Dame for the first time in the last few weeks. I can understand that Goethe found it too gruesome and sensational but it is mostly a fun book and Frollo is probably the most impressive character.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 14, 2019, 09:05:35 AM
While I must have seen a movie or two years ago, I actually read Notre Dame for the first time in the last few weeks. I can understand that Goethe found it too gruesome and sensational
If Notre-Dame is gruesome and sensational, I wonder what Goethe would have made of The Gulag Archipelago. On being told it's actually not fiction at all he'd probably have had a heart attack on the spot. ;D
Goethe himself involuntarily started a "suicide epidemic" with his early/protoromantic "Werther". But later on he was more of a balanced, somewhat aloof "Olympian" who didn't like the romantics very much, or maybe was disturbed by what he perceived as excesses. (I had never before heard of his verdict against Hugo's Notre Dame.)
Quote from: Jo498 on March 14, 2019, 10:27:34 AM
Goethe himself involuntarily started a "suicide epidemic" with his early/protoromantic "Werther". But later on he was more of a balanced, somewhat aloof "Olympian" who didn't like the romantics very much, or maybe was disturbed by what he perceived as excesses. (I had never before heard of his verdict against Hugo's Notre Dame.)
I wasn't even aware that he read it. Otomh, I should have thought it was published after his death.
I find
Notre-Dame de Paris much more realistic than
Faust, much easier to read, more fun and humane --- bottom line, more enjoyable.
They are completely different, of course. There is nothing realistic about Faust; it's basically all ideas. But in German the language is simply brilliant and flowing easily at the same time. Often actually quite funny and it has quotable, pithy verses on almost every page.
Mephistopheles is way too funny to be serious villain.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 14, 2019, 11:19:05 AM
They are completely different, of course. There is nothing realistic about Faust; it's basically all ideas.
Precisely. Probably the most flesh-and-blood, fully human characters are those in the first prologue: the theater director, the playwright and the actor.
Quote
it has quotable, pithy verses on almost every page.
Yes. Basically a huge collection of witty aphorisms.
Quote from: Alberich on March 14, 2019, 01:57:22 AM
He manipulates Villeforts wife to poison almost Villeforts entire family, including children. And he saves Valentin only because Morrel is In love with her. And then he has the nerve to receive their thanks conveniently leaving to his last cowardly letter to tell that Valentines little brother is dead and conveniently leaving unmentioned that it is his fault that her brother is dead. He hurt lots of innocent people. I find him worse than Villefort.
That's not Edmond Dantes, that's the Count of Monte-Cristo. ED died in Chateau d'If.
Quote from: Florestan on March 18, 2019, 12:03:17 PM
That's not Edmond Dantes, that's the Count of Monte-Cristo. ED died in Chateau d'If.
Deleted your earlier post, I see. At the risk of starting an endless debate, if Joseph Stalin had been an alter ego (and the cult around him really kind of did make it an alter ego or a new ego) instead of just another name of man known as Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili, and if he would have been in a FAIR trial for Stalin's genocidal crimes against humanity, do you think they would allow Jughashvili to get off the hook under the pretense that only Stalin did those crimes, not Jughashvili?
Quote from: Alberich on March 19, 2019, 06:23:25 AM
Deleted your earlier post, I see. At the risk of starting an endless debate, if Joseph Stalin had been an alter ego (and the cult around him really kind of did make it an alter ego or a new ego) instead of just another name of man known as Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili, and if he would have been in a FAIR trial for Stalin's genocidal crimes against humanity, do you think they would allow Jughashvili to get off the hook under the pretense that only Stalin did those crimes, not Jughashvili?
This comparison is way too far fetched, and plainly absurd, to warrant a reply. Sorry.
Easiest way out.
Quote from: Alberich on March 19, 2019, 06:34:15 AM
Easiest way out.
No, really, can't you see there's absolutely no ground for comparison between Edmond Dantes / The Count of Monte Cristo, a fictional character who killed / caused harm to nobody except other fictional characters, and Joseph Stalin, possibly the bloodiest tyrant the world has ever seen? Don't you make any difference between fiction and reality?
Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2019, 06:38:19 AM
No, really, can't you see there's absolutely no ground for comparison between Edmond Dantes / The Count of Monte Cristo, a fictional character who killed / caused harm to nobody except other fictional characters, and Joseph Stalin, possibly the bloodiest tyrant the world has ever seen? Don't you make any difference between fiction and reality?
I used it to hammer in my point that in his fictional universe he was a villain. He may not have killed nearly as many innocent fictional persons in his fictional universe as Stalin did in real life, but, he did kill them (once again, in his fictional universe where he existed). Real-life comparisons are not off-limits. In fact, what makes great literature great is that it can and even should be compared to real life. They must obey the same logic, real life or not.
Quote from: Alberich on March 19, 2019, 06:50:35 AM
I used it to hammer in my point that in his fictional universe he was a villain. He may not have killed nearly as many innocent fictional persons in his fictional universe as Stalin did in real life, but, he did kill them (once again, in his fictional universe where he existed). Real-life comparisons are not off-limits. In fact, what makes great literature great is that it can and even should be compared to real life. They must obey the same logic, real life or not.
Okay, then. Edmond Dantes turned the Count of Monte Cristo obeys the logic of revenge. There you have a peaceful and naive guy whose whole life was ruined and turned into hell and who is bent on doing the same to the lives of those responsible for that, at all costs. One might argue he was forced into it and he is not a sadist. When he achieves his revenge he stops the wrongdoing. Joseph Djugashvili turned Stalin followed the logic of grabbing power and keeping it at all costs. Nobody forced him into it and he was clearly a sadist. There was no stopping point to his criminal actions. What common ground do you see between them?
Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2019, 07:02:15 AM
Okay, then. Edmond Dantes turned the Count of Monte Cristo obeys the logic of revenge. There you have a peaceful and naive guy whose whole life was ruined and turned into hell and who is bent on doing the same to the lives of those responsible for that, at all costs. One might argue he was forced into it and he is not a sadist. Joseph Djugashvili turned Stalin followed the logic of grabbing power and keeping it at all costs. Nobody forced him into it and he was clearly a sadist. What common ground do you see between them?
How were Villefort's other family members responsible for what Gérard de Villefort did? The mass murders throughout history have been committed on the basis that "sins of the fathers shall be visited on the children". Make no mistake, this was not the only reason. Being a power-hungry monster either born or bred certainly was a major factor in this. But it still doesn't change the horrific things the Jews, for example, were forced to go through the centuries because their ancestors allegedly crucified Christ or were responsible for it.
Quote from: Alberich on March 19, 2019, 07:22:43 AM
How were Villefort's other family members responsible for what Gérard de Villefort did? The mass murders throughout history have been committed on the basis that "sins of the fathers shall be visited on the children". Make no mistake, this was not the only reason. Being a power-hungry monster either born or bred certainly was a major factor in this. But it still doesn't change the horrific things the Jews, for example, were forced to go through the centuries because their ancestors allegedly crucified Christ or were responsible for it.
See? Exactly like I said before: you go into far fetched and absurd comparisons. The topic was Edmond Dantes and you brought in first Stalin and now the plight of the Jews through the centuries. What's next, the Ottoman genocide against Armenians?
Try a little exercise: put yourself into Edmond Dantes' shoes and ask yourself: what would I have done if I had been him? Are you that sure you'd not have done what he eventually did?
Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2019, 07:30:37 AM
Try a little exercise: put yourself into Edmond Dantes' shoes and ask yourself: what would I have done if I had been him? Are you that sure you'd not have done what he eventually did?
I have. And I wouldn't consider it impossible. However, did it ever occur to you that I might consider myself (a potential) real-life villain?
Quote from: Alberich on March 19, 2019, 07:33:34 AM
I have. And I wouldn't consider it impossible. However, did it ever occur to you that I might consider myself (a potential) real-life villain?
Anyone, myself included, is a potential real-life villain. :laugh:
Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2019, 09:36:51 AM
Anyone, myself included, is a potential real-life villain. :laugh:
FTFY
:P ;D
Quote from: Ken B on March 19, 2019, 12:16:55 PM
FTFY
:P ;D
Go on, confess! Whom have you murdered in the last 24 hours? :P ;D
Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2019, 12:19:07 PM
Go on, confess! Whom have you murdered in the last 24 hours? :P ;D
Statute of limitations.
Quote from: Overtones on March 14, 2019, 01:01:42 AM
I second the Stavrogin mention. The most evil and best written character I've ever read.
Of the two villains in
Devils, I think Peter Verkhovensky is far more vile than Stavrogin, who would never have stooped to Peter's conniving, desire to control, and pettiness. There is a touch of grandeur in Stavrogin's nihilism and sociopathy. He is the raw power worms like Peter have to harness to raise themselves from the mud.
Since it's Christmas, I nominate Ebenezer Scrooge. Possibly and probably the most vilified character in literature, he's actually the least vile of all famous villains in literature. What Dickens did to him is nothing short of character assassination (pun). :D
Quote from: Florestan on December 24, 2020, 12:48:42 PM
Since it's Christmas, I nominate Ebenezer Scrooge. Possibly and probably the most vilified character in literature, he's actually the least vile of all famous villains in literature. What Dickens did to him is nothing short of character assassination (pun). :D
Anybody who loathes Christmas is a hero in my book.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 24, 2020, 01:17:30 PM
Anybody who loathes Christmas is a hero in my book.
I remember that, Larry, I vividly do --- in fact, I checked my memory just a very few hours ago... ;D
Nevertheless I am sure that if you witnessed in person (ie, listened to, and tasted) a traditional Romanian Christmas --- which has got nothing, but absolutely nothing at all to do with what passes for "Christmas" in the USA --- you'd perhaps soften your stance on it. Our traditional Christmas is all about good traditional music, good traditional food and good traditional drinks --- truly and really
Gloria in excelsis Deo, et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.
Quote from: Florestan on December 24, 2020, 01:34:39 PM
I remember that, Larry, I vividly do --- in fact, I checked my memory just a very few hours ago... ;D
Nevertheless I am sure that if you witnessed in person (ie, listened to, and tasted) a traditional Romanian Christmas --- which has got nothing, but absolutely nothing at all to do with what passes for "Christmas" in the USA --- you'd perhaps soften your stance on it. Our traditional Christmas is all about good traditional music, good traditional food and good traditional drinks --- truly and really Gloria in excelsis Deo, et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.
What is a traditional Romanian Christmas like? I'd love to know and also what you and your family are doing too (including if a bit different).
Best wishes,
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 24, 2020, 01:39:21 PM
What is a traditional Romanian Christmas like? I'd love to know and also what you and your family are doing too (including if a bit different).
First and foremost a traditional Romanian Christmas is full of snow, but courtesy of climate change this hasn't been the case for several years. (In my childhood, ie 1975-1985, it was very much the case.)
Secondly, groups of singers (mostly children & teenagers, but also grown-ups) go from house to house singing carols. They absolutely must be rewarded with money, drinks or food. Most of these carols are very old --- albeit arranged by modern composers. Just today I've been listening to some of them while driving and I was blown away by the quality of music and performance --- but then again I'm surely biased. Nevertheless, jiudge for yourself: here are five of the most famous ones:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuVYRZ8cmsA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuVYRZ8cmsA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCPz6vOwWek (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCPz6vOwWek)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TccCXeiN-_o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TccCXeiN-_o)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag059GLun48 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag059GLun48)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih2Qqh5OsM8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih2Qqh5OsM8)
Thirdly, we eat sarmale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarma_(food) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarma_(food))), cozonac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cozonac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cozonac)) and drink țuică (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C8%9Auic%C4%83) and homemade wine (I belong to those not a few happy who are able to grow their own grapes and make their own wine).
Fourthly, I guess the children's joy and happiness when opening the Christmas presents is the same as everywhere else.
:D
Quote from: Florestan on December 24, 2020, 02:08:55 PM
First and foremost a traditional Romanian Christmas is full of snow, but courtesy of climate change this hasn't been the case for several years. (In my childhood, ie 1975-1985, it was very much the case.)
Secondly, groups of singers (mostly children & teenagers, but also grown-ups) go from house to house singing carols. They absolutely must be rewarded with money, drinks or food. Most of these carols are very old --- albeit arranged by modern composers. Just today I've been listening to some of them while driving and I was blown away by the quality of music and performance --- but then again I'm surely biased. Nevertheless, jiudge for yourself: here are five of the most famous ones:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuVYRZ8cmsA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuVYRZ8cmsA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCPz6vOwWek (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCPz6vOwWek)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TccCXeiN-_o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TccCXeiN-_o)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag059GLun48 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag059GLun48)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih2Qqh5OsM8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih2Qqh5OsM8)
Thirdly, we eat sarmale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarma_(food) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarma_(food))), cozonac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cozonac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cozonac)) and drink țuică (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C8%9Auic%C4%83) and homemade wine (I belong to those not a few happy who are able to grow their own grapes and make their own wine).
Fourthly, I guess the children's joy and happiness when opening the Christmas presents is the same as everywhere else.
:D
Thank you Floristan, I'll check into the videos soon. :)
Best wishes,
PD
Vronsky in Anna K. He is very relatable and human.
Svidrigaïlov in Crime and Punishment. He is a wealthy former-employer, and pursuer, of Raskolinikov's sister. I like his nihilistic and paradoxical character with an apparent occult ability.
Mr Murdstone in Dickens's 'David Copperfield' with his tyrannical mathematics question about Double Gloucester cheese.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 25, 2021, 06:39:50 AM
Svidrigaïlov in Crime and Punishment. He is a wealthy former-employer, and pursuer, of Raskolinikov's sister. I like his nihilistic and paradoxical character with an apparent occult ability.
+1
Morgoth.