Any composer named Einojuhani deserves a separate thread . . . .
I agree!
Maciek, I know that our esteemed Ben would want us to get right to the music . . . but I confess, it is entirely too long since last I listened to the Rautavaara Vigilia.
It's high time, too, that I revisit the Eighth Symphony.
My comment was about the name entirely. 0:)
I must confess I've only heard about a CD's worth of his music. Liked it very much and would love to buy something finally. So I'll be watching this space very closely for recs. :)
I am personally infatuated with Rautavaara's piano music. His Piano Concerto No. 1 is my absolute favorite piano work. His Etudes and Icons are also amazing, and his Piano Sonatas 1 and 2 are wonderful. Narcissus is also a great piece he composed in 2002.
Anyone know where I could get some of his piano sheet music?
My random guess would be that there might be something at the Finnish Music Information Centre: http://www.fimic.fi/
Thanks, Edward. The link led me to his publisher Fennica Gehrman (http://www.fennicagehrman.fi/sheet.php).
I have long admired his Cantus Arcticus (Concerto for Birds and Orchestra), Op. 61, which is probably borderline kitschy for some listeners, but a breath of fresh air for others. It's basically an atmospheric tone poem for orchestra with bird sounds taped at the Arctic Circle. Max Pommer's recording with Leipzig is wonderful, and here is a review on Classical Net. (http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/c/cat62671b.html)
(http://www.classical.net/music/recs/images/c/cat62671.jpg)
There is also this Naxos recording with Lintu and the RSNO that I haven't heard, but this review (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/Apr99/rautavaara.htm) is certainly glowing.
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/Apr99/raut.jpg)
--Bruce
Birds, yes. For the Riverboat, there must be birds :)
Quote from: bhodges on May 02, 2007, 08:52:01 AM
There is also this Naxos recording with Lintu and the RSNO that I haven't heard, but this review (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/Apr99/rautavaara.htm) is certainly glowing.
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/Apr99/raut.jpg)
--Bruce
I have the Naxos disc and question and can recommend it in the strongest terms: three of his best pieces that I've heard, in excellent sound and performances.
Among the many Rautavaara CDs I have, this Naxos truly has the best performance of Cantus Arcticus!
This afternoon I watched a performance of his Lintukoto (Isle of Bliss) Sakari Oramo conducting the City of Birmingham SO at a concert at the Cologne Music Triennale, a festival dedicated to performing music of the 20th century. Beautiful playing under sensitive and thrilling conducting.
The DVD also has Olli Mustonen playing Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No. 3 and as the highlight Sibelius's Symphony No. 5. What a treat to watch a Finn conduct the music of his fellow countryman with so much dedication and love expressed in every note. If it's still available, this DVD will move you to the very end: The encore of Sibelius's Valse Triste!
I couldnt find the First Piano Concerto of Rautavaara through Fennica Gehrman or anywhere else.
Does anyone have any leads to where I could find the score to this concerto?
Quote from: btpaul674 on May 03, 2007, 07:37:54 PM
I couldnt find the First Piano Concerto of Rautavaara through Fennica Gehrman or anywhere else.
Does anyone have any leads to where I could find the score to this concerto?
Looks like Boosey & Hawkes publishes a lot of his scores in conjunction with Fennica Gehrman or exclusively:
http://www.boosey.com/pages/cr/composer/composer_main.asp?composerid=2757
http://www.boosey.com/pages/shop/advsearch_results.asp?author=Rautavaara,%20Einojuhani
No sign of the 1st PC score, though.
Breitkopf & Härtel has it in their database but apparently not for sale atm:
http://www.breitkopf.com/suchErgebnis.php?send=true&searchKmpId=789
Quote from: btpaul674 on May 01, 2007, 05:09:49 PM
I am personally infatuated with Rautavaara's piano music. His Piano Concerto No. 1 is my absolute favorite piano work.
I just listened to that a couple of hours ago. It does have a wonderful romantic sweep, and a subtly subversive tonal quality that isn't always put into the service of romantic sweep. The recording has languished on my shelves for a couple of years, but now that it has made it into the tray, I think it's going to stay there for a few days. Fascinating stuff.
Quote from: bhodges on May 02, 2007, 08:52:01 AM
I have long admired his Cantus Arcticus (Concerto for Birds and Orchestra), Op. 61, which is probably borderline kitschy for some listeners, but a breath of fresh air for others.
Cantus worked for me the first time I heard it, and it's held up well to subsequent listenings.
I have wonderful memories of Sawalisch conducting the premiere(?) of the eight symphony with the Philadelphia O. (possibly ,however also from the Cologne festival ca 2000 -2003?). Superb playing and a very enjoyable work.
I have the version with Leif Segerstam on Ondine - excellent.
Cantus arcticus is fine - a bit kitschy,yes, but never silly .
Mikko Franck performed several Rautavaara pieces with the Belgian Nat.Orch. - recently (his last concert as chief) the brass + percussion Requiem for our time.
Peter
So I just got done reading an essay by Anne-Sivuoja-Gunaratnam about Rautavaara entitled " 'Narcissus Musicus' or an Intertextual Perspective on the Oeuvre of Einojuhani Rautavaara." I found it interesting that we could've had another piano concerto, as the original first piano concerto written in 1954 has been lost. Subsequently we could have had 4 PCs. DAMN!
Quote from: bhodges on May 02, 2007, 08:52:01 AM
I have long admired his Cantus Arcticus (Concerto for Birds and Orchestra), Op. 61, which is probably borderline kitschy for some listeners, but a breath of fresh air for others. It's basically an atmospheric tone poem for orchestra with bird sounds taped at the Arctic Circle. --Bruce
I heard the
Cantus Arcticus for the first time over the weekend. I enjoyed it and am glad I went to the concert, but I'm not sure that I'm sold on Rautavaara solely by that piece.
I see what you mean by 'borderline kitschy.' I think it depends on how you approach the piece. If you go with a 'too cool for school' attitude, then it's going to sound a bit twee.
However, the programme notes talked about Rautavaara's stylistic diversity so I'm keen to hear more of his other works. Hmm, maybe some of his piano works or symphonies?
Quote from: Novitiate on May 09, 2007, 03:47:59 AM
However, the programme notes talked about Rautavaara's stylistic diversity so I'm keen to hear more of his other works. Hmm, maybe some of his piano works or symphonies?
The
Vigilia.
Not a big fan of this composer, but there are 2 discs I like a lot.
The first is the Naxos shown above, with the 3rd Symphony etc. I especially like the symphony, it sounds like quasi-serialist Bruckner.
The other is the Ondine disc with the Finnish Brass Symphony playing R's music for brass & wind ensembles. Highly recommended for those who like serious brass music.
So I've been a big fan of Rautavaara for a while, and just recently I found out he has a Harp Concerto. So I picked up the disc with the 8th and the concerto on it. Wow!
I got the disc of the complete works for String Orchestra, and I am amazed to hear the similarities between works like the Divertimento and the Suite for Strings and their striking resemblance in many forms to the writing of Ralph Vaughan Williams. It seems to be my second favorite composer emulating my top favorite composer! Astounding.
Radio transmission (webcast) of a concert that took place on June 20th in Dresden this year:
Rautavaara's Cantus arcticus
Philharmonic Orchestra of Helsinki
Leif Segerstam
DownloadLink: http://rapidshare.com/files/43882216/Rautavaara_Einojuhani_Cantus_arcticus_Koncert_na_ptaki_i_orkiestr__op_61__1972__OF_w_Helsinkach_Leif (http://rapidshare.com/files/43882216/Rautavaara_Einojuhani_Cantus_arcticus_Koncert_na_ptaki_i_orkiestr__op_61__1972__OF_w_Helsinkach_Leif)
File-Size: 28,31 MB
Quote from: Maciek on July 19, 2007, 03:05:24 PM
Radio transmission (webcast) of a concert that took place on June 20th in Dresden this year:
Rautavaara's Cantus arcticus
Philharmonic Orchestra of Helsinki
Leif Segerstam
DownloadLink: http://rapidshare.com/files/43882216/Rautavaara_Einojuhani_Cantus_arcticus_Koncert_na_ptaki_i_orkiestr__op_61__1972__OF_w_Helsinkach_Leif (http://rapidshare.com/files/43882216/Rautavaara_Einojuhani_Cantus_arcticus_Koncert_na_ptaki_i_orkiestr__op_61__1972__OF_w_Helsinkach_Leif)
File-Size: 28,31 MB
That's wonderful, thanks a lot! ;)
Quote from: btpaul674 on May 03, 2007, 07:37:54 PM
I couldnt find the First Piano Concerto of Rautavaara through Fennica Gehrman or anywhere else.
Does anyone have any leads to where I could find the score to this concerto?
I found it. I ordered it. I have it now. and I love it and I'm learning to hack through it. ;D
I am a great admirer of Rautavaara's music. He is one of the most distinguished living composers with an ability to produce music of great beauty and seriousness. Indeed, perhaps it is because so much of his music is so beautiful that he has not had his full critical due.
The Finnish label Ondine has however served him extremely well with a large number of excellent CD releases and Naxos now appears to be following suit.
I recall being initially gripped by his Third Symphony-which, as has been remarked, made me think that Bruckner had returned to earth!
The 7th symphony('Angel of Light') and the 8th('The Journey') are particularly impressive works.
Can I particularly recommend however two Ondince CDs-ODE 881-2 which contains the splendid Violin Concerto, beautifully(that word again) played by Elmar Oliveira, and two fine orchestral works 'Isle of Bliss' and 'Angels and Visitations', and ODE 921-2-which has the Flute Concerto('Dances with the Winds'), played by Patrick Gallois, coupled with 'Anadyomene' and the eery 'On the Last Frontier'-a choral work based on a story by Edgar Allan Poe.
The concept of "chill-out" music may be a little alien to some serious classical music listeners but when I do want to relax I often listen to Rautavaara or Hovhaness-except that I think that Rautavaara is, ultimately, a far finer composer with a much greater range than Hovhaness.
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 23, 2007, 01:46:44 PM
I am a great admirer of Rautavaara's music. He is one of the most distinguished living composers with an ability to produce music of great beauty and seriousness. Indeed, perhaps it is because so much of his music is so beautiful that he has not had his full critical due.
The Finnish label Ondine has however served him extremely well with a large number of excellent CD releases and Naxos now appears to be following suit.
I recall being initially gripped by his Third Symphony-which, as has been remarked, made me think that Bruckner had returned to earth!
The 7th symphony('Angel of Light') and the 8th('The Journey') are particularly impressive works.
Can I particularly recommend however two Ondince CDs-ODE 881-2 which contains the splendid Violin Concerto, beautifully(that word again) played by Elmar Oliveira, and two fine orchestral works 'Isle of Bliss' and 'Angels and Visitations', and ODE 921-2-which has the Flute Concerto('Dances with the Winds'), played by Patrick Gallois, coupled with 'Anadyomene' and the eery 'On the Last Frontier'-a choral work based on a story by Edgar Allan Poe.
The concept of "chill-out" music may be a little alien to some serious classical music listeners but when I do want to relax I often listen to Rautavaara or Hovhaness-except that I think that Rautavaara is, ultimately, a far finer composer with a much greater range than Hovhaness.
Rautavaara is one of my favorite contemporary composers and the works you mention are all quite good--however, that Ondine disc with the VC &
Angels and Visitations is a treasure!
A general question out of curiosity....
Does anyone know what Rautavaara is working on next? Like perhaps another concerto or symphony?
Quote from: btpaul674 on October 14, 2007, 08:08:01 PM
A general question out of curiosity....
Does anyone know what Rautavaara is working on next? Like perhaps another concerto or symphony?
I got the impression from various reports that he was very ill, and unlikely to be able to do much :(
So Ondine just released a new Rautavaara disc with the Manhattan Trilogy and Symphony 3 on it....
http://www.ondine.net/index.php?lid=en&cid=2.2&oid=3488
Anyone planning on picking this up? I certainly am.
His Tapestry of Life will be premiered by New Zealand Symphony Orchestra in April 2008, directed by Pietari Inkinen. Glorious.
He also is apparently working on his next large-scale opera based on texts by Federico García Lorca.
Please Einojuhani, give me a 9th Symphony!!!!
Quote from: btpaul674 on February 18, 2008, 07:56:44 PM
So Ondine just released a new Rautavaara disc with the Manhattan Trilogy and Symphony 3 on it....
http://www.ondine.net/index.php?lid=en&cid=2.2&oid=3488
Anyone planning on picking this up? I certainly am.
I ordered it last week. JPC sent me an email yesterday saying it's been posted. Should arrive today....any minute now actually (mail usually arrives between one and two CET).
Sarge
Quote from: btpaul674 on February 18, 2008, 07:56:44 PM
He also is apparently working on his next large-scale opera based on texts by Federico García Lorca.
Wow, I'm glad to hear this mentioned. The last I heard about him, his health was in an extremely poor state.
I picked up the Ondine 7th symphony ('Angel of Light') from the Library at the weekend without much idea of what I was borrowing, but informed enough to know that I was lucky to find it in a provincial library. I listened to it yesterday at work and can immediately agree that it provides very good background music without the need to invest much personally. That probably means I'll have to spend some time at the weekend to really listen to it. Normally I would play it during my commute, but I fear the dynamics would be lost in my rust bucket of a draughty car!
I am listening to the Third Symphony (Pommer/ Leipzig Symphony Orchestra), and the opening made me smile - Bruckner 4 all over again, and no mistake. It was Forum member Christo who mentioned Rautavaara's name to me, but that was more than ten years ago... Now I am listening for the first time, and I must say - this is very atmospheric and beautiful music!
Quote from: Jezetha on February 19, 2008, 02:07:52 PM
I am listening to the Third Symphony (Pommer/ Leipzig Symphony Orchestra), and the opening made me smile - Bruckner 4 all over again, and no mistake. It was Forum member Christo who mentioned Rautavaara's name to me, but that was more than ten years ago... Now I am listening for the first time, and I must say - this is very atmospheric and beautiful music!
It certainly is that!! I could not believe what I was hearing the first time I listened to the Third Symphony.
I too have the Pommer/Leipzig Symphony Orchestra version. Ondine has just released a new version with Segerstam conducting the Helsinki Philharmonic orchestra. Has anybody heard this new version? How does it compare? Should I buy the new one? I was tempted by its Manhattan Trilogy coupling but I'm going to get that work along with the new Naxos version of the 8th Symphony.
Quote from: Dundonnell on February 19, 2008, 03:15:04 PM
It certainly is that!! I could not believe what I was hearing the first time I listened to the Third Symphony.
I too have the Pommer/Leipzig Symphony Orchestra version. Ondine has just released a new version with Segerstam conducting the Helsinki Philharmonic orchestra. Has anybody heard this new version? How does it compare? Should I buy the new one? I was tempted by its Manhattan Trilogy coupling but I'm going to get that work along with the new Naxos version of the 8th Symphony.
Sarge will be commenting on the Ondine release tomorrow...
The new Ondine disc with the 3rd is a must!! Also the Naxos disc with the 1st Piano Concerto (which is certainly better than it's equivalent Ondine disc).
Also, fellow fans, Naxos will soon be releasing a third recording of the 8th Symphony for our aural pleasure, played by the usually excellent New Zealand SO with an up-and-coming young Finnish conductor. The NZSO really aught to be great in this kind of music, as anyone who has heard their disc of Douglas Lilburn's symphonies might testify. High hopes I have!
:)
Oh, and the new Naxos disc will have a recording of the Manhattan Trilogy, so anyone who warms to that work will only have wait a matter of weeks for a companion interpretation. Aren't we lucky?! ;D
Quote from: The Notorious MOG on February 19, 2008, 03:33:08 PM
Also the Naxos disc with the 1st Piano Concerto (which is certainly better than it's equivalent Ondine disc).
:)
Are you saying that Laura Mikkola's performance is better than Gothoni's, or are we talking about the recording itself? I ask because Mikkola's performance of the first is sloppy, lacks character, is unbalanced, neglects important features in the music, and is overall unsatisfactory. The only complaint I have of Gothoni is the third movement, which needs some serious realignment.
As man of you know, Naxos released their disc with the 8th, Manhattan Trilogy, and Apotheosis with New Zealand and Pietari Inkinen. Any thoughts on comparisons with the Ondine disc Manhattan trilogy?
Personally I dont have the Ondine disc yet, but I soon will.
The interesting difference is the 4th mvt of the 8th with Inkinen versus the Ondine recording with Helsinki and Segerstam. Inkinen really exploits the Con Grandezza-ness of Con Grandezza. That theme from Thomas is hard to listen to as slow as Inkinen takes it. I do like Inkinen's flow of the Sciolto section. The real discerning factor is the highlight of the 4th mvt; the horns playing the symmetrical inversion D-G-C-F#-A-C-C of the opening motif. NZ pulls it off, but not with the intensity of Helsinki.
Thoughts?
I had my first listen to the new Ondine disc mentioned above:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PRpAbRq8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
and have to say I was disappointed. Admittedly, it was only one hearing so far, but based on that, the Manhattan Trilogy seems to fall in with Rautavaara's other late-period New Agey works, somewhat pleasant but ultimately rather bland and beneath what he's capable of. (Compare his works from the 60's and 70's.)
The magnificent third symphony suffers under Segerstam's hands. Here, this grand Brucknerian work too often devolves into slack sonic mush at climaxes, with important themes nearly drowned in a sea of exaggerated bass instruments (complete with farting brass at one or two points).
Compare Lintu on Naxos to hear what I mean.
After a couple of months of observing, I've just registered for these forums because I enjoy the chance to take shots at Rautavaara. The Helsinki City Library has all of his output on disc, so I've been going through it and marveling at how vacuous his music tends to be. I could compare myself to the musicologist who, repulsed by Elliott Carter's music, ended up dedicating his life to studying how music could possibly get that ugly (to him). In my case, I'm just mesmerised by how Rautavaara manages to say so little in such great spans of time, and how he keeps fulfilling commission after commission with pieces that can't be distinguished from one another.
If you browse modern-classical listings on Amazon, you may have seen my reviews which chronicle my exploration of his output. There have been a couple of pleasant surprises (though even Rautavaara's best efforts usually seem average compared to other major composers). The third, fourth and seventh symphonies, "Cantus Arcticus" (as a simple crowd-pleaser), "Angels and Visitations" are for me his only pieces that have something to say.
Rautavaara may have started a fad with the Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light", but at least here in Finland it seems to be over. At a performance of "Book of Visions" last year, people were walking out and one person called it a "book of monotony". Though this is the Rautavaara 80th anniversary year, very little of his music has been programmed and Helsinki new music fans are interpreting it as a deliberate snub.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Rautavaara is a composer who can 'say' ( I hate that word in this context) many different things in a short amount of time. There are Rautavaara-isms that show up in many pieces. However each of the circumstances in which these Rautavaara-isms appears differs significantly from one appearance to the next, especially in construction. A common example is many of the similarities in the 7th and 8th symphonies. Very similar construction andboth retrospective inter/intra-texturally, but completely different thematic development, different compositional methods, different textural variations. If I even tried to listen to the 8th as I listen to the 7th I think my head would explode.
Going through a few vast stylistic changes, Rautavaara has accomplished much in each one of his 'periods.' Sometimes I can't believe True and False Unicorn, the First Piano Concerto, Vigilia, and the 5th symphony come from the same composer. Hundreds of different 'voices' can be found in Rautavaara. However, he manages to keep a large intertextual vividness throughout most of his output.
Right now I am playing his two Piano Sonatas. The first movement of the first piano sonata is astounding. In a very short amount of time, and through the wonders of reflexive symmetry, Rautavaara creates a diverse contasting atmosphere with astounding play with light and color. The amount of information present in the first 25 or so bars is unbelievable.
To summarize some of the stream of thought I've put here, each one of Rautavaara's pieces is unquestionably different from one to the next. The range of influence, scope of composition, and quality of work of his oeuvre are remarkable. CRCulver, I can't believe that you find so little out of so much. Perhaps if you focus less on finding ways to attack Rautavaara's work, you could listen to what is actually unfolding.
Evidentally, the Rautavaara fad is still going on wherever you live. However, I'm sure it will pass. Funny that you defend his piano works. Looking at the documentary on an Ondine DVD of Rautavaara writing his Third Piano Concerto, you can see that Vladimir Ashkenazy was very disappointed by how little substance was in the piece (tone clusters for a while, then scales, then some more tone clusters, but never any real development). I've not yet heard the Sonatas, but certainly Rautavaara's latest big work for piano isn't magical in any way.
"Each one of Rautavaara's pieces is unquestionably different from one to the next."
I would challenge you to identify, say, a random 10-second snippet of one of his late works.
Quote from: CRCulver on May 07, 2008, 11:50:06 AM
Looking at the documentary on an Ondine DVD of Rautavaara writing his Third Piano Concerto, you can see that Vladimir Ashkenazy was very disappointed by how little substance was in the piece (tone clusters for a while, then scales, then some more tone clusters, but never any real development).
How does he express his disappointment?
Quote from: Lethe on October 18, 2007, 11:49:18 PM
I got the impression from various reports that he was very ill, and unlikely to be able to do much :(
Yeah, I saw a report about that on CNN.
Quote from: CRCulver on May 07, 2008, 11:50:06 AM
Evidentally, the Rautavaara fad is still going on wherever you live. However, I'm sure it will pass. Funny that you defend his piano works. Looking at the documentary on an Ondine DVD of Rautavaara writing his Third Piano Concerto, you can see that Vladimir Ashkenazy was very disappointed by how little substance was in the piece (tone clusters for a while, then scales, then some more tone clusters, but never any real development). I've not yet heard the Sonatas, but certainly Rautavaara's latest big work for piano isn't magical in any way.
"Each one of Rautavaara's pieces is unquestionably different from one to the next."
I would challenge you to identify, say, a random 10-second snippet of one of his late works.
Really, though, it would be very easy for me to identify the piece. I'm doing a rather long narrative dissertation of Rautavaara's work. Hell, I'd probably even provide you an analysis.
I have not seen the DVD, but I can assure you of some very interesting developments in pitch collections transforming throughout that piece. I'm astounded by how much of the practice of Bartok is tightly concealed with some of the inner workings of the 3rd PC. Great piece on many levels of perception and analysis.
I will find this DVD.
Last, I am the only one in this area on a "Rautavaara Fad," using your terms. I only know other person I've met at my University knows of his work, who went to teach at UL Lafayette and now at Westminster College, PA. I've never seen a Rautavaara piece programmed or performed within hundreds of miles of me. However my recent pinings have started to open the collective eyes of musicians around me.
If you read CR's Amazon reviews, you'll see he doesn't get Sibelius, either. :D
"Rautavaara fad"...... lol, someone should make that an official term.
Maybe the definition could mean something like "wishful thinking" or something.
I just bought Symphony 8 Naxos. I enjoyed it greatly but was sorry that it moved away from the thematic material of the very opening section so quickly as I would have liked that to have continued for longer.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 08, 2008, 02:30:04 AM
I just bought Symphony 8 Naxos. I enjoyed it greatly but was sorry that it moved away from the thematic material of the very opening section so quickly as I would have liked that to have continued for longer.
Agreed! :)
Quote from: Jezetha on February 19, 2008, 02:07:52 PM
I am listening to the Third Symphony (Pommer/ Leipzig Symphony Orchestra), and the opening made me smile - Bruckner 4 all over again, and no mistake. It was Forum member Christo who mentioned Rautavaara's name to me, but that was more than ten years ago... Now I am listening for the first time, and I must say - this is very atmospheric and beautiful music!
Well, dear Johan: Ten years ago .... More, even, I'm afraid. In those days, I must have been referring to the Seventh, Angel of Light, just released by Ondine in 1996. Since then, I tremendously enjoyed the very Brucknerian
Third, but I'm still not completely convinced by the others.
Not that I know them all: I missed the
First and
Second, so far. The Fourth `Arabescata' is a completely serialist piece I only played once or twice. Five is quite okay, another Angel symphony not totally unlike the Seventh. I missed the Sixth `Vincentiana' too, but played both the Seventh and Eight again, recently.
Well: David Hurwitz is rather critical on Naxos' New Zealanders in the Eight, and tells us to opt for either Vänskä or Segerstam, if I'm not mistaken. I should perhaps invest in one of them, then. As to the Seventh: I still prefer the first release, Segerstam at Ondine, but there's nothing wrong with Koivula conducting the Royal Scotchmen for Naxos either. But the music is ... well, very atmospheric and often beautiful, but not wholly convincing symphonically, imho, imho only.
Quote from: Christo on May 08, 2008, 12:21:19 PM
Well, dear Johan: Ten years ago .... More, even, I'm afraid. In those days, I must have been referring to the Seventh, Angel of Light, just released by Ondine in 1996. Since then, I tremendously enjoyed the very Brucknerian Third, but I'm still not completely convinced by the others.
Not that I know them all: I missed the First and Second, so far. The Fourth `Arabescata' is a completely serialist piece I only played once or twice. Five is quite okay, another Angel symphony not totally unlike the Seventh. I missed the Sixth `Vincentiana' too, but played both the Seventh and Eight again, recently.
Well: David Hurwitz is rather critical on Naxos' New Zealanders in the Eight, and tells us to opt for either Vänskä or Segerstam, if I'm not mistaken. I should perhaps invest in one of them, then. As to the Seventh: I still prefer the first release, Segerstam at Ondine, but there's nothing wrong with Koivula conducting the Royal Scotchmen for Naxos either. But the music is ... well, very atmospheric and often beautiful, but not wholly convincing symphonically, imho, imho only.
I remember vividly the first time I heard the opening pages of Rautavaara's 3rd. I had bought the Ondine CD with the Leipzig Radio Symphony Orchestra conducted by Max Pommer. I had listened to Symphonies Nos. 1 and 2 and had been moderately impressed by each without thinking that either was terribly memorable. When I started listening to No.3 I sat up in absolute amazement.....Anton Bruckner was alive and well and working in Helsinki!!
I still find it a very fine symphony indeed.
But please, Johan, not 'Royal Scotchmen'! We are Scots or Scottish!!
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 08, 2008, 12:56:44 PM
But please, Johan, not 'Royal Scotchmen'! We are Scots or Scottish!!
Oh, dear, dear. And oh dear Colin too: hardly knowing your language (indeed, always struggling with a handful of foreign languages) I was just vaguely guessing/hoping that ""scotchmen"" might have a funny antique ring - and that's why I added the royalty as well. Never ever did I want to insult the Scots, let alone you! :-\ :'( My sincere apologies, nonetheless.
Btw, now that you're safely back from Paris: the promised CD's with some "Royal Dutchmen" (funny that you call us "Dutch" btw, as we use that name to describe our Eastern neighbours, or for that matter "Holland" :P - as they're just my neighbours to the West, being a stubborn Low Saxon >:D myself and convinced the oppressive state we're presently under shouldn't be called anything but "The Netherlands" ... $:)) will be send soon! :) ;)
Quote from: vandermolen on May 08, 2008, 02:30:04 AM
I just bought Symphony 8 Naxos. I enjoyed it greatly but was sorry that it moved away from the thematic material of the very opening section so quickly as I would have liked that to have continued for longer.
I agree and disagree. I love the very beginning, but it quickly begins wonderful material that is developed keenly. If I hadn't left the score at school I'd share specifics. I agree with Rautavaara's choice to keep this 'organism' flowering from the beginning so not to linger too long on that wonderful bassoon solo.
I'll admit, sometimes I like to linger on a passage or section over and over (by means of manually skipping back) before moving on.
Quote from: btpaul674 on May 08, 2008, 04:28:27 PM
I agree and disagree. I love the very beginning, but it quickly begins wonderful material that is developed keenly. If I hadn't left the score at school I'd share specifics. I agree with Rautavaara's choice to keep this 'organism' flowering from the beginning so not to linger too long on that wonderful bassoon solo.
I'll admit, sometimes I like to linger on a passage or section over and over (by means of manually skipping back) before moving on.
Point taken but I do like to repeat that opening section over and over and I wish he had done some kind of variations thing with that opening theme (you can gauge the extent of my technical knowledge from this post ::))
Quote from: Christo on May 08, 2008, 04:22:40 PM
funny that you call us "Dutch" btw, as we use that name to describe our Eastern neighbours, or for that matter "Holland" :P
"Nederlanders" is hard to say! :'( ;D
Quote from: Lethe on May 09, 2008, 12:55:15 AM
"Nederlanders" is hard to say! :'( ;D
Europeans will do nicely too
Sarah!We, that is to say us, Groningers, are in possession of the greatest gas supplies in the Netherlands, and all the riches go to the people in the West, and we profit only from their idiotic decisions. They live on the riches of others illegally taken, in fact the Netherlands exist solely on the basis of our gas supplies, o, well....... :P ;D
Quote from: Christo on May 08, 2008, 04:22:40 PM
Oh, dear, dear. And oh dear Colin too: hardly knowing your language (indeed, always struggling with a handful of foreign languages) I was just vaguely guessing/hoping that ""scotchmen"" might have a funny antique ring - and that's why I added the royalty as well. Never ever did I want to insult the Scots, let alone you! :-\ :'( My sincere apologies, nonetheless.
Btw, now that you're safely back from Paris: the promised CD's with some "Royal Dutchmen" (funny that you call us "Dutch" btw, as we use that name to describe our Eastern neighbours, or for that matter "Holland" :P - as they're just my neighbours to the West, being a stubborn Low Saxon >:D myself and convinced the oppressive state we're presently under shouldn't be called anything but "The Netherlands" ... $:)) will be send soon! :) ;)
Oh yes, I know, how unnecessarily pedantic I was being! And, of course, how important it is to remember that the proper name is indeed the Netherlands and not Holland. Holland-North and South-is a region in the western part of your country.
Indeed I am back from Paris safely. What a beautifully elegant city it is! I look forward to the music to which you refer.
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 09, 2008, 02:47:15 AM
Oh yes, I know, how unnecessarily pedantic I was being!
Hi Colin! I think it's a mistake Netherlanders (!) often make - saying
Scotch instead of
Scots or
Scottish. I made the error myself a few days ago (remember?)... But I am cured of it now, I hope.
Quote from: Jezetha on May 09, 2008, 03:03:22 AM
Hi Colin! I think it's a mistake Netherlanders (!) often make - saying Scotch instead of Scots or Scottish. I made the error myself a few days ago (remember?)... But I am cured of it now, I hope.
I know :) I arrogantly thought that I was performing my little contribution to international-or at least Dutch(?)-understanding ;D
The Scots-like some other of the smaller nations-tend to get a bit 'itchy' about any references to themselves. I just about jumped out of my chair with rage the other night when one of the judges on the BBC programme 'The Apprentice' referred to an idiotic contestant as having a classics degree from Edinburgh and another judge replied "Edinburgh is not what it used to be"! But, who knows....maybe she is correct!
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 09, 2008, 03:10:51 AM
I know :) I arrogantly thought that I was performing my little contribution to international-or at least Dutch(?)-understanding ;D
As long as your contributions remain little, there is no arrogance there
I can see... But Scottish-Dutch relations
have improved markedly, the last few minutes. ;)
Rautavaara is a name I've always come across, but never known where to start. Saw this thread come up in recent posts, came right over and found what promises to be a great reccomendation on page 1! :) I have found the Naxos Cantus Arcticus disc to stream. I'm just a few minutes in and it's very interesting to say the least! ;D This is one of the things I was hoping would happen when I came here just over a week ago. Long may this forum introduce me to new, great music.
TTFN.
Me.
Concerning Scotch...
USAGE: In the north of England and in Scotland, Scotch is not used outside fixed expressions such as Scotch whisky. The use of Scotch for Scots or Scottish is otherwise felt to be incorrect, esp. when applied to people.
(dictionary entry (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scotch))
Re Scotch: A comedian I like (Stewart Lee) has a DVD of a routine in Scotland in which he has a prolonged part on intentionally insulting "Scottishness" in a long-winded and hilariously overblown and farsical way. The one thing I remember most is not how ridiculous the routine got towards the end (by which time the audience was laughing), but the very beginning, when he sets up his "ignorant" credentials by intentionally referring to Scots as "Scotch" - he was immediately chided by one of the audience, almost torpedoing the whole thing. So indeedie, they don't seem to like it ;)
Quote from: Lethe on May 09, 2008, 04:48:49 AM
Re Scotch: A comedian I like (Stewart Lee) has a DVD of a routine in Scotland in which he has a prolonged part on intentionally insulting "Scottishness" in a long-winded and hilariously overblown and farsical way. The one thing I remember most is not how ridiculous the routine got towards the end (by which time the audience was laughing), but the very beginning, when he sets up his "ignorant" credentials by intentionally referring to Scots as "Scotch" - he was immediately chided by one of the audience, almost torpedoing the whole thing. So indeedie, they don't seem to like it ;)
We don't like it-you are quite right but that's no reason why others shouldn't take a pot at our national pomposity ;)
Listening this evening to Symphony #3 (Ondine/Pommer) and what an impact! I first listened to Symphonies 1-6 a few years back (all Pommer) and from what I remember, I enjoyed all of them. But fresh ears can make a big difference!
Rautavaara fans: which recording of the 3rd is your favorite (I'm assuming Pommer, Lintu, and Segerstam are the only ones)?
By the way, Hannu Lintu is in San Antonio this weekend performing Isle of Bliss, Beethoven PC #4 (Groh), and Sibelius 2. I'll be there...
Paul
I've just listened to the Naxos recording of the 7th symphony "Angel of Light" and Angels and Visitations for the fourth time, and, while they are immediately attractive pieces with very plush orchestration, after a few listens the "modern" touches (e.g. Ligeti-ish swarming string clusters) start to feel tacked on to what would otherwise be music not out of place in a modern soundtrack. Granted, it's an enjoyable piece, but not one that I feel has any staying power.
I'm still interested in hearing the rest of the cycle. :)
A friend of mine went to the European premiere of A Tapestry of Life a few nights ago here in Helsinki. He claims it was completely indistinguishable from Manhattan Trilogy or Book of Visions. The comment of his I found funniest was: "It's pretty bad that I could actually predict what it would sound like before it was even played. I expected the opening to be a D minor chord with added ninth, and there it was."
Quote from: Corey on October 11, 2008, 10:39:20 AM
I've just listened to the Naxos recording of the 7th symphony "Angel of Light" and Angels and Visitations for the fourth time, and, while they are immediately attractive pieces with very plush orchestration, after a few listens the "modern" touches (e.g. Ligeti-ish swarming string clusters) start to feel tacked on to what would otherwise be music not out of place in a modern soundtrack. Granted, it's an enjoyable piece, but not one that I feel has any staying power.
I'm still interested in hearing the rest of the cycle. :)
I feel the same way....... it doesn't feel like there is much substance to the 7th symphony. I mean, what did he have in mind? Attractive colors? I don't hear much besides that.......
I like the 8th Symphony. Parts may sound like 'film music' but my response to this is 'so what?' I feel that the symphony does convey a real sense of journey and home-coming and that is enough for me. Actually I rather like works that focus on 'atmosphere' rather than 'argument' although I guess that a synthesis of the two is best of all.
The thing about Rautavaara is that a good amount of his recent work sounds alike (i.e., flaccid and bland New Age music), but his oeuvre does include real gems. I was just listening to his beautiful flute concerto again last night, and it was impressive as ever. Don't write him off because of his latest pieces.
Quote from: Grazioso on October 12, 2008, 04:32:50 AM
The thing about Rautavaara is that a good amount of his recent work sounds alike (i.e., flaccid and bland New Age music), but his oeuvre does include real gems. I was just listening to his beautiful flute concerto again last night, and it was impressive as ever. Don't write him off because of his latest pieces.
I agree that it's his recent work that sounds all alike, but "recent" here means the last almost 40 years. I've found very few works from after 1970 that are more than fluff. Anyone wanting to hear some substantial Rautavaara has to go back to pieces like the Symphony No. 3 in the 1960s.
I love his Clarinet Concerto. It is a beatiful contribution to the clarinet repertory. I don't care much for his early music.
Quote from: CRCulver on October 12, 2008, 06:19:02 AM
I agree that it's his recent work that sounds all alike, but "recent" here means the last almost 40 years. I've found very few works from after 1970 that are more than fluff. Anyone wanting to hear some substantial Rautavaara has to go back to pieces like the Symphony No. 3 in the 1960s.
It's fun to track Rautavaara's development from the earlier works into pieces like his 3rd symphony and beyond. He seemed to be constantly refining his serialist techniques culminating into that wildly Brucknerian 3rd. While his style definitely evolved, he kept revisiting and revising old works to update them into whatever appropriate style he was working with. Moreover, coherence in his oeuvre can be traced from the
Three Symmetrical Preludes up into
A Tapestry of Life. Examine the opening to the 1st symphony as opposed to the opening of the Clarinet Concerto that Mark brought up.
Rautavaara's propensity for autoquotations and intertextual motifs define his compositional life. I appreciate the fact he can produce works that are superficially similar, but these works are generated by a variety of techniques.
New box set of complete symphonies, to date, about to be released by Ondine:
Quote from: vandermolen on February 16, 2009, 09:44:46 AM
New box set of complete symphonies, to date, about to be released by Ondine:
More info and samples. (http://www.ondine.net/index.php?lid=en&cid=2.2&oid=3988)
According to the Ondine website, it's due for a March release (and it's already available in Finland).
Quote from: Wanderer on February 19, 2009, 12:53:00 AM
More info and samples. (http://www.ondine.net/index.php?lid=en&cid=2.2&oid=3988)
According to the Ondine website, it's due for a March release (and it's already available in Finland).
Thank you. I liked the opening fragment of Symphony No 1. I was surprised how much it sounded like parts of Symphony No 8.
Boooooooo! >:D
I don't like the finality of it! He's still alive and kicking and i'm holding out for a 9th.
Quote from: Mog: 100% replicant on February 19, 2009, 12:14:34 PM
Boooooooo! >:D
I don't like the finality of it! He's still alive and kicking and i'm holding out for a 9th.
Me too.
i remember having and enjoying the original ondine symphonies (1-5)., along with the syms. of kalevi AHO. on ondine. and Kokkonen!!!
forgive me, but it seemed to me that the takemitsu effect took hold on rautavaara, the holy mysticism of it all, and i fully expect him to write a Mass for Nietchtze (sic?), which will be a beautiful humanist plea to the atlantians...it will win a grammy. it just seems that compositional technique has come so far as to make the spiritual easy in music...the spiritual "sounding" that is.
after the segerstam thread....i'm compelled to hear rautavaara's string quartet No.4 (1976) which i hear has quite an atmosphere.
thats...nietzsche!
Just discovered Symphony No 1. Beautiful long opening movement, which like Hyasaka's Piano Concerto opening movement, I suspect that I will end up playing on its own.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 28, 2009, 05:20:44 PM
Just discovered Symphony No 1. Beautiful long opening movement, which like Hyasaka's Piano Concerto opening movement, I suspect that I will end up playing on its own.
:) :)
I'm giving this thread a bump because I've just got my hands on my first Rautavaara CD, the 6th Symphony and the Cello Concerto, and although I've only had a chance to play the symphony once (it's been a busy week), I can't wait to explore it further. It's an eclectic work, mixing avant-garde crash-bang-wallops with more melodic material, and includes substantial sections for electronic instruments. I want to see if it all hangs together on repeated listenings. And I've still got the Cello Concerto to explore.
http://www.amazon.com/Rautavaara-Symphony-No-Cello-Concerto/dp/B00000377W
I love his music, and recorded a while ago a work for guitar: "Serenades of the Unicorn", which I had on my website until a month ago, when I uploaded new music from my new CD.
He's a fantastic composer.
Over the weekend, I listened to the Tapiola Choir recording Water Under Snow is Weary (Ondine, 1988) which is chock full of some fantastic contemporary Finnish choral pieces. It finishes with a great Rautavaara composition, Marjatta, matala neiti. It's sort of a Finnish mystery play with plenty of spooky tone clusters sung by the childrens' choir, narrated by the composer and the role of Marjatta sung by his young wife, Sini. Anyone heard this disc? I don't know of many other children choirs capable of such achingly beautiful folk songs one moment and blood-curdling screams the next.
Another one of my favorite works is his Myth of Sampo for male choir, soloists and tape which also contains some wonderful hair-raising moments. Amazingly it's still in print.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oudea0n3L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
My first (not yet) complete listen to Rautavaara Symphony No. 7 'Angel of Light' with Vänskä/Lahti - Just finished mvmt 3 "Come un sogno". Some parts clearly sound like a rewrite (or is it vice versa) of the 'Melancholy' in "Cantus Arcticus". A lot of magic so far, I'm very excited.... is it from this world?
... Mvmt4 finished now. Maybe a touch of drama.
I need to re-listen to the symphony. But there is a big question: If you know "Cantus Arcticus" - do you know the whole Rautavaara?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ac2AKs2rL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Benji on February 19, 2009, 12:14:34 PM
Boooooooo! >:D
I don't like the finality of it! He's still alive and kicking and i'm holding out for a 9th.
Nah! Instead of a 9th symphony, he will compose a vocal/choral work and call it Des Lied von der ------ something.
Quote from: springrite on September 15, 2009, 09:02:15 AMhe will compose a vocal/choral work and call it Des Lied von der ------ something.
Das Lied von der Banane?
Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 15, 2009, 08:55:28 AM
If you know "Cantus Arcticus" - do you know the whole Rautavaara?
More or less. Rautavaara has been writing pieces indistinguishable from each other since the early 1970s, and he has admitted that he writes many of his new works by rearranging material from older works (see Sivuoja-Gunaratnam's monograph
Narcissus musicus).
Quote from: CRCulver on September 15, 2009, 11:01:12 AM
More or less. Rautavaara has been writing pieces indistinguishable from each other since the early 1970s, and he has admitted that he writes many of his new works by rearranging material from older works (see Sivuoja-Gunaratnam's monograph Narcissus musicus).
Did he take this practice from Penderecki? ;D
Has anyone heard SQ No.4?
FYI, Ondine has collected Rautavaara's symphonies and concertos into two inexpensive box sets:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Mwup9Zz6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bKbPhq6oL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote
But there is a big question: If you know "Cantus Arcticus" - do you know the whole Rautavaara?
Nope :)
Quote from: snyprrr on September 15, 2009, 07:25:15 PM
Has anyone heard SQ No.4?
Yes,
I listened to the 2 different renditions (Sirius String Quartet & Voces Intimae String Quartet) and I am not thrilled, although both interpretations are technically immaculate.
I am not sure the string quartet medium is one that fits well Rautavaara's skills & inspiration.
I find a lot of ideas in the first one, even if the form is not so strong, but the more you advance in time, the more I am puzzled.
There might be a good reason why he did not compose another string quartet during the last 34 years.
Too me, and I don't know everything (I don't know most of the symphonies so far), you find Rautavaara at his best in its choral music and everything he writes for human voice (some beautiful operas: Vincent, Aleksis Kivi, The House of Sun).
Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 15, 2009, 08:55:28 AM
But there is a big question: If you know "Cantus Arcticus" - do you know the whole Rautavaara?
Not at all, if you look across his whole career to date. Having said that, he has been churning out some mostly indistinguishable orchestral suites (Manhattan Trilogy, Book of Visions) recently, but this seeming lack of inspiration might be due to his recent ill health. Let's not forget that the Cantus Articus is from the early 1970s, which dates before much more experimental work such as the Organ Concerto (1977) and later his 6th Symphony (1992) and the opera Vincent on which it is based (1987). Cantus Articus might have a dreamy open sound that makes it similar to the 7th Symphony (1994) and the Angel group of works that that symphony is grouped with, but I think it's a disservice to the composer to ignore everything that came inbetween for that reason.
Please, do continue to explore this composer, he actually has encompassed a wonderful variety of styles in his career, but all held together by a very individual and unmistakable 'voice'.
I still play Symphony No 8 'The Journey' a lot.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 23, 2009, 09:16:32 AM
I still play Symphony No 8 'The Journey' a lot.
Well, I don't do that :-\ 8)
Crikey... every time I see activity on this thread after a long while of none I am sure that someone is going to be reporting the composer's demise.
Phew...
Quote from: Benji on November 14, 2009, 02:46:20 PM
Crikey... every time I see activity on this thread after a long while of none I am sure that someone is going to be reporting the composer's demise.
Phew...
That's exactly what I think on the Penderecki thread, and every now and then on the Carter thread.
Come on. He's not going to leave us without a Ninth, probably even more.
After No. 1 (1956), 2 (1957), 3 (1961) and 4 (1962) he kept silent for a while on the symphonic front. Then came his second series, with No. 5 (1986), 6 (1992), 7 (1995) and 8 (1999).
If he continues that way, we can expect a third series of four symphonies somewhere around 2025.
(Or perhaps they were written already. Isn't Kalevi Aho a Rautavaara redivivus?)
Quote from: Christo on November 14, 2009, 10:42:16 PM
Come on. He's not going to leave us without a Ninth, probably even more.
After No. 1 (1956), 2 (1957), 3 (1961) and 4 (1962) he kept silent for a while on the symphonic front. Then came his second series, with No. 5 (1986), 6 (1992), 7 (1995) and 8 (1999).
If he continues that way, we can expect a third series of four symphonies somewhere around 2025.
(Or perhaps they were written already. Isn't Kalevi Aho a Rautavaara redivivus?)
Let's hope so :) Especially as I like No 8 so much.
I ordered a Magnus Lindberg disc from Arkivmusic.com; they rarely make errors, but I received a double set of Rautavaara's music for male choir. Curiosity got the better of me and I went ahead and purchased the thing -- and for once, serendipity won out, because it is really unique and very fine. Favorite piece is a setting of Whitman's Song of Myself, but there are gems throughout the collection.
What is the best place to start with the symphonies of this composer?
And I'd like to know about that 'Complete Music for Brass'/A Requiem for Our Time (Ondine) cd. Anyone have it? For some reason, this sounds like an interesting place to go.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 25, 2010, 02:37:15 AM
And I'd like to know about that 'Complete Music for Brass'/A Requiem for Our Time (Ondine) cd. Anyone have it? For some reason, this sounds like an interesting place to go.
I have (and praised it on p. 1 of this thread). As stated, I'm not a big Rautavaara fan, but this disc is highly recommendable.
Best things on it are the two "requiems" (the early
Requiem for Our Time, and the later
Soldier's Requiem), and the Wind Octet. The last-named is I believe a serial composition, but it is really quite fetching. It reminds me of Stravinsky's similar Octet in its overall mood.
If I had to keep only 1 Rautavaara CD, this would be it.
Edit: It's Soldier's Mass, not Requiem. Anyway, here's a review:
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2035
Quote from: Scarpia on May 24, 2010, 11:43:47 PM
What is the best place to start with the symphonies of this composer?
The third, which sounds like updated Bruckner. I like the Naxos recording of it best, though there are a few others. You can get all his symphonies cheaply in an Ondine box set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Mwup9Zz6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Scarpia on May 24, 2010, 11:43:47 PM
What is the best place to start with the symphonies of this composer?
You like Bruckner. Start with the Third. The Naxos CD is cheap, and great. Here are a few comments from early in this thread:
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 08, 2008, 12:56:44 PM
I remember vividly the first time I heard the opening pages of Rautavaara's 3rd...I sat up in absolute amazement.....Anton Bruckner was alive and well and working in Helsinki!! I still find it a very fine symphony indeed.
Quote from: Jezetha on February 19, 2008, 02:07:52 PM
I am listening to the Third Symphony (Pommer/ Leipzig Symphony Orchestra), and the opening made me smile - Bruckner 4 all over again, and no mistake. I am listening for the first time, and I must say - this is very atmospheric and beautiful music!
Quote from: Christo on May 08, 2008, 12:21:19 PM
I tremendously enjoyed the very Brucknerian Third, but I'm still not completely convinced by the others.
Sarge
Quote from: Grazioso on May 25, 2010, 04:40:43 AM
The third, which sounds like updated Bruckner. I like the Naxos recording of it best, though there are a few others. You can get all his symphonies cheaply in an Ondine box set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Mwup9Zz6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2010, 04:48:04 AM
You like Bruckner. Start with the Third. The Naxos CD is cheap, and great.
Ok, 3rd sounds interesting, but I'm leaning towards the Ondine disc because SACD sounds attractive.
What about the music for brass, "Requiem for our time" and all that?
Quote from: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 08:17:06 AM
What about the music for brass, "Requiem for our time" and all that?
Jeez, doesn't anyone read my posts? >:(
Quote from: Velimir on May 25, 2010, 03:03:24 AM
I have (and praised it on p. 1 of this thread). As stated, I'm not a big Rautavaara fan, but this disc is highly recommendable.
Best things on it are the two "requiems" (the early Requiem for Our Time, and the later Soldier's Requiem), and the Wind Octet. The last-named is I believe a serial composition, but it is really quite fetching. It reminds me of Stravinsky's similar Octet in its overall mood.
If I had to keep only 1 Rautavaara CD, this would be it.
Has anyone heard R's brass music?
I already owned all the Ondine recordings, so I bought the BIS recordings with Vanska and I can't wait to hear them! Symphonies Nos. 7 & 8 have been favorites of mine since I heard all of his symphonies. I also just bought this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61V6RTOcyYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Scarpia on May 24, 2010, 11:43:47 PM
What is the best place to start with the symphonies of this composer?
Go with
Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light" first. This is the composer in his mature style. I'm not one of these people who think a person should explore the early works first. If a composer is consistent, which Rautavaara has proven to be, then it doesn't matter where you jump in. I just happen to think the 7th is his masterpiece.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 09, 2010, 01:07:08 PM
Go with Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light" first. This is the composer in his mature style. I'm not one of these people who think a person should explore the early works first. If a composer is consistent, which Rautavaara has proven to be, then it doesn't matter where you jump in. I just happen to think the 7th is his masterpiece.
It doesn't get better than the
Come un sogno. That said, I dislike the finale of the 7th. I return more often to the 8th and 3rd (especially the 3rd, I never tire of it). :)
Hi, Ben!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2010, 08:37:59 AM
Hi, Ben!
Greetings Dr Karl. I'm still alive. Yay. How are you?
No sign of Rautavaara's 9th then. At least he's no longer
very ill so there is hope he may get around to it. Does anyone have a spare few thousands pounds/dollars/euros for a commission?
Quote from: Benji on September 13, 2010, 08:30:07 AM
It doesn't get better than the Come un sogno. That said, I dislike the finale of the 7th. I return more often to the 8th and 3rd (especially the 3rd, I never tire of it). :)
Symphony No. 8 "The Journey" is very good too. I've heard it several times now.
Does anyone think Rautavaara will compose a ninth symphony? Many people know the "curse of the 9th" already, so I don't need to launch into that.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 15, 2009, 11:01:12 AM
More or less. Rautavaara has been writing pieces indistinguishable from each other since the early 1970s, and he has admitted that he writes many of his new works by rearranging material from older works (see Sivuoja-Gunaratnam's monograph Narcissus musicus).
Culver, a reviewer on Amazon, who continues to write negative reviews on Rautavaara, has made his high and mighty opinion of Rautavaara known 15 reviews ago. My question is why does somebody who so adamantly dislikes someone's music continue to write reviews on him? It's just a waste of time. If you don't like his music, fine, but there are plenty of others that do, as evidenced by this thread. Do everybody a favor and go back to your hole on Amazon and write your BS reviews while the rest of us here will continue to talk about the music we love.
I realize this post by Culver was written a few years ago, but I couldn't help but to respond to such ignorance.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 08:51:15 PM
Culver, a reviewer on Amazon, who continues to write negative reviews on Rautavaara, has made his high and mighty opinion of Rautavaara known 15 reviews ago. My question is why does somebody who so adamantly dislikes someone's music continue to write reviews on him? It's just a waste of time. If you don't like his music, fine, but there are plenty of others that do, as evidenced by this thread. Do everybody a favor and go back to your hole on Amazon and write your BS reviews while the rest of us here will continue to talk about the music we love.
I realize this post by Culver was written a few years ago, but I couldn't help but to respond to such ignorance.
I think the hope is that Rautavaara might return to his earlier strengths. I too feel that his music has declined.
Quote from: Grazioso on March 30, 2011, 05:35:41 AMI think the hope is that Rautavaara might return to his earlier strengths. I too feel that his music has declined.
Well I like Rautavaara regardless of what style he composes in, so I happily disagree with your opinion.
I hope he writes a 9th symphony- the 8th is quite a nice one, and it would be nice to hear another piece in a similar style.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 08:51:15 PM
I realize this post by Culver was written a few years ago, but I couldn't help but to respond to such ignorance.
Well I'm not exactly a fan of Rautavaara, but noting Culver's comment that "he writes many of his new works by rearranging material from older works" - didn't plenty of composers do that, including some great ones (Bach for instance)?
I should listen a bit more, but Rautavaara, in my mind, is classified as an "atmospheric" composer, which I don't usually find myself attracted to. I normally am most attracted to works with more drive to them. But that is a superficial impression based on listening to just a few things, and I don't even remember clearly what they were. But that's also a bad sign. :-\
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 30, 2011, 08:40:04 AM
I should listen a bit more, but Rautavaara, in my mind, is classified as an "atmospheric" composer, which I don't usually find myself attracted to. I normally am most attracted to works with more drive to them. But that is a superficial impression based on listening to just a few things, and I don't even remember clearly what they were. But that's also a bad sign. :-\
His newer works do tend to sound more amorphous and New-Agey, but try some earlier works, and I think you might be pleasantly surprised: the 3rd symphony, 1st piano concerto, cello concerto, flute concerto,
Anadyomene, et al.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 08:51:15 PM
Culver, a reviewer on Amazon, who continues to write negative reviews on Rautavaara, has made his high and mighty opinion of Rautavaara known 15 reviews ago. My question is why does somebody who so adamantly dislikes someone's music continue to write reviews on him? It's just a waste of time.
The usual bad composer would not deserve much in the way of attention or comment, but Rautavaara is
fascinatingly bad. Listening to his music evokes a sort of wonder, "How did he get away with this for so long?"
Also, Rautavaara is often recommended to people who want to find late 20th century music of a tonal, "accessible" nature. And it happens that people listen to his music expecting him to be great, and are ultimately disappointed that it's fluff. Even some of the erstwhile Rautavaara fans who complained about my reviews eventually wrote to me, "Yeah, you're right, I see now there's not much substance there". When you've got a composer who's treated like an universally accessible tonal master, it's good to have a review stating that other, less well-known composers are more likely to offer
longterm satisfaction.
Quote from: Velimir on March 30, 2011, 08:32:48 AMWell I'm not exactly a fan of Rautavaara, but noting Culver's comment that "he writes many of his new works by rearranging material from older works" - didn't plenty of composers do that, including some great ones (Bach for instance)?
While Bach rearranged much of his work (usually in writing music for ceremonial use that had to be done fast), he also showed constant invention until the day he died.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 08:26:41 PM
Does anyone think Rautavaara will compose a ninth symphony? Many people know the "curse of the 9th" already, so I don't need to launch into that.
In the last interview I saw with him on Finnish television, he said his health was too precarious to write another symphony.
Quote from: CRCulver on March 30, 2011, 10:54:57 PM
The usual bad composer would not deserve much in the way of attention or comment, but Rautavaara is fascinatingly bad. Listening to his music evokes a sort of wonder, "How did he get away with this for so long?"
Also, Rautavaara is often recommended to people who want to find late 20th century music of a tonal, "accessible" nature. And it happens that people listen to his music expecting him to be great, and are ultimately disappointed that it's fluff. Even some of the erstwhile Rautavaara fans who complained about my reviews eventually wrote to me, "Yeah, you're right, I see now there's not much substance there". When you've got a composer who's treated like an universally accessible tonal master, it's good to have a review stating that other, less well-known composers are more likely to offer longterm satisfaction.
I don't like everything Rautavaara composed, especially in his later works, just like I don't like everything Ravel or Stravinsky composed. People can't possibly like everything written by a composer and, yes, Rautavaara has composed some absolute duds in his lifetime, but I think your reviews of his music are excessive, not only in length, but in quantity. I've read several of your reviews regarding this composer and each time I read them it's as if you got some kind of bone to pick. You're entitled to your opinion, but yours isn't the only one that is valid.
bump
I like Symphony No 8 'The Journey' it has IMHO a great opening and I find the work genuinely moving and genuinely conveying a sense of journey. I hope that he writes a No 9 but if not I think that No 8 is a fine conclusion to his symphonic cycle. The opening of Symphony No 7 'Angel of Light' is also very powerful. I like the Piano Concerto No 3 which, oddly, in one section reminded me of the Vaughan Williams Piano Concerto.
To give myself the occasional break from compulsive listening to Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony I have been listening to Rautavaara's Piano Concerto No. 3 'Gift of Dreams' - I know that quite a lot of disparaging things are said about Rautavaara's music, but I thought that this was a lovely and often very affecting score.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 21, 2011, 12:49:57 PM
To give myself the occasional break from compulsive listening to Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony I have been listening to Rautavaara's Piano Concerto No. 3 'Gift of Dreams' - I know that quite a lot of disparaging things are said about Rautavaara's music, but I thought that this was a lovely and often very affecting score.
Me too. In fact, I really enjoyed his concerto
Dances with the Winds for flute too. I've enjoyed most of the concertos I've heard from Rautavaara. His
Violin Concerto is a very cool piece.
The Violin Concerto and Piano Concertos No. 2 and 3 are definitely my favorite pieces by Rautavaara, and they're all completely different. However, all three are very beautiful works that I can never get sick of listening to. I hope Rautavaara writes another major instrumental concerto. I heard his two newest concertos, a percussion concerto called "Incantations" and his Cello Concerto No. 2 "Towards the Horizon". I was not impressed at all with the percussion concerto, but I enjoyed the cello concerto and was left wanting another concertante work.
Hmm, sounds like I should begin with the concertos.
Quote from: eyeresist on July 21, 2011, 07:36:35 PM
Hmm, sounds like I should begin with the concertos.
Honestly, that's a tough call to make. For me, there wasn't really any good place to start with Rautavaara. You just have to kind of jump on in. I can't recommend this disc highly enough:
[asin]B0006BGX04[/asin]
I can say that a good place to begin with Rautavaara is with any of his later works, from after 1995 or so. If you listen to his early works, you might either get the wrong impression of him, or, if you like it, you might be disappointed to see that he moved on from that style. I know I am disappointed to know that he probably won't ever write another piece like his Violin Concerto or Piano Concerto No. 2, or, hell, his Symphony No. 3.
Quote from: lescamil on July 21, 2011, 08:08:07 PM
I can say that a good place to begin with Rautavaara is with any of his later works, from after 1995 or so. If you listen to his early works, you might either get the wrong impression of him, or, if you like it, you might be disappointed to see that he moved on from that style. I know I am disappointed to know that he probably won't ever write another piece like his Violin Concerto or Piano Concerto No. 2, or, hell, his Symphony No. 3.
I need to revisit his 3rd, I keep reading that it's one his best or am I thinking about his 4th? I'm sure I've heard it a couple of times, but I need to refresh my memory of it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 21, 2011, 08:17:18 PM
I need to revisit his 3rd, I keep reading that it's one his best or am I thinking about his 4th? I'm sure I've heard it a couple of times, but I need to refresh my memory of it.
The 3rd really is one of his best. It's serial music written to sound like Bruckner. Not being a Bruckner fan at all, I thought I would hate it, but I love that symphony. The 4th symphony is the exact opposite of the 3rd. It actually
sounds like an avant-garde work, and it is the thorniest-sounding of the lot. The 3rd symphony is perhaps the most accessible of the ones he wrote in his middle period.
Quote from: lescamil on July 21, 2011, 09:02:26 PM
The 3rd really is one of his best. It's serial music written to sound like Bruckner. Not being a Bruckner fan at all, I thought I would hate it, but I love that symphony. The 4th symphony is the exact opposite of the 3rd. It actually sounds like an avant-garde work, and it is the thorniest-sounding of the lot. The 3rd symphony is perhaps the most accessible of the ones he wrote in his middle period.
Ah, okay, thanks I'll have a listen to the 3rd soon. By the way, Bruckner he's my man! (to quote Wagner) :D
Quote from: lescamil on July 21, 2011, 09:02:26 PM
The 3rd really is one of his best. It's serial music written to sound like Bruckner. Not being a Bruckner fan at all, I thought I would hate it, but I love that symphony.
Ah, well I
am a Bruckner fan, and this sounds like a terrible idea! But I guess the proof is in the pudding.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 21, 2011, 06:40:03 PM
Me too. In fact, I really enjoyed his concerto Dances with the Winds for flute too. I've enjoyed most of the concertos I've heard from Rautavaara. His Violin Concerto is a very cool piece.
Thanks - I must look out for 'Dances with the Winds'. I see that there is an Ondine box set of the concertos and yes, the BIS CD of Symphony No 8 'The Journey' is a great place to start exploring Rautaavara.
I remember well the first time I listened to the Third Symphony. I had bought the Ondine recording of Nos.1-3 and had listened to the first two symphonies. Then I put on No.3!
It opens with fluttering woodwind followed by a Brucknerian chorale passage. I just sat back in my chair in amazement and astonishment :)
I love the work ;D Listening to it again now.
(Had a similar reaction when I first listened to Penderecki's 2nd ;D)
This is exactly what I missed about GMG over the last two years...being reminded of musical enthusiasms and being propelled back towards music I had, not forgetten but had maybe neglected for a time :D
Quote from: eyeresist on July 21, 2011, 09:40:26 PM
Ah, well I am a Bruckner fan, and this sounds like a terrible idea! But I guess the proof is in the pudding.
It's some good pudding, trust us! :)
(http://notcomplicated.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/cosby_puddingpop.jpg?w=150)
Quote from: vandermolen on July 22, 2011, 12:29:06 AM
Thanks - I must look out for 'Dances with the Winds'. I see that there is an Ondine box set of the concertos and yes,
A beautiful concerto that features standard concert flute, piccolo, alto flute, and bass flute. It's part of that box, but you may want to get it as it was originally released, as the other two pieces are quite enjoyable:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UjiwY5tbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Oh........my goodness...how glorious the finale of the Third is!!!!!!!
A Bruckner lover should surely lap it up :D
Right - I shall be listening to Symphony No 3 too - ordered the Flute Concerto with Symphony 7 and the Cantus Articus on BIS.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 22, 2011, 08:23:57 AM
Right - I shall be listening to Symphony No 3 too - ordered the Flute Concerto with Symphony 7 and the Cantus Articus on BIS.
Excellent, I hope you this recording. It's excellent.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 22, 2011, 08:48:12 AM
Excellent, I hope you this recording. It's excellent.
Many thanks.
OT
Just to let you know that I've been greatly enjoying the 'Latin America Alive' box set (Eduardo Mata with the Simon Bolivar SO of Venezuela), which I think was one of your recommendations.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 22, 2011, 09:23:18 AM
Many thanks.
OT
Just to let you know that I've been greatly enjoying the 'Latin America Alive' box set (Eduardo Mata with the Simon Bolivar SO of Venezuela), which I think was one of your recommendations.
Excellent Jeffery! Happy listening my friend! :D
Thanks to this thread I have been sampling Rautavaara's symphonies and now have several things in my wishlist. It seems to me that 3, 7 and 8 are perhaps the best, or at least the most accessible, so I will probably start with the Naxos discs. Those also include other important orchestral works. I noticed that the first movement of Manhattan Trilogy sounded very much like Vaughan Williams of the 3rd and 5th symphonies!
The Ondine box of all the symphonies is tempting, but I don't feel any great need to hear the 2nd or the 4th any time soon. Plus I am disappointed they didn't use Segerstam's recording of the 3rd. (The excellent Vanska CDs are well above my pay grade.)
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 22, 2011, 08:48:12 AM
Excellent, I hope you this recording. It's excellent.
Came back from my holiday to find the second-hand BIS CD with 'Dances with the Winds' waiting for me - have only heard it once so far but I really liked it - I'd forgotten how good Symphony No 7 'Angel of Light' and Cantas Articus were - sections reminded me of Vaughan Williams. The opening of Symphony No 7 is marvellous very dark and eloquent with a kind of Tapiola like atmosphere to it. In some ways I wish that Rautavaara had treated the very distinctive opening theme of Symphony No 8 in the same way - to my mind it disappears too quickly, although symphony No 8 is one of my most often played works by this composer. Anyway, the BIS disc is terrific, so many thanks for the recommendation. I think than Vanska's is the best version of Symphony No 7 and I have the excellent Ondine version and the Naxos one too.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 02, 2011, 06:49:47 AM
Came back from my holiday to find the second-hand BIS CD with 'Dances with the Winds' waiting for me - have only heard it once so far but I really liked it - I'd forgotten how good Symphony No 7 'Angel of Light' and Cantas Articus were - sections reminded me of Vaughan Williams. The opening of Symphony No 7 is marvellous very dark and eloquent with a kind of Tapiola like atmosphere to it. In some ways I wish that Rautavaara had treated the very distinctive opening theme of Symphony No 8 in the same way - to my mind it disappears too quickly, although symphony No 8 is one of my most often played works by this composer. Anyway, the BIS disc is terrific, so many thanks for the recommendation. I think than Vanska's is the best version of Symphony No 7 and I have the excellent Ondine version and the Naxos one too.
Yes, I think performances on the Vanska BIS recordings are excellent. I need to revisit these myself as I recall the performance of
Symphony No. 7 and
Symphony No. 8 the best I've heard.
I don't listen to much contemporary classical music, but Rautavaara is certainly one of my favourite contemporary classical composers; so far, I've heard the symphonies, the Violin Concerto and the Piano Concerto No.3, definitely brilliant and evocative music, incredibly expressive.
I'm listening to Cantus Arcticus just now, for the first time. ;D
Has anyone heard (live or in recording) the original version of Rautavaara's first symphony (before the two subsequent revisions)?
Quote from: Scarpia on August 27, 2012, 12:06:58 PM
Has anyone heard (live or in recording) the original version of Rautavaara's first symphony (before the two subsequent revisions)?
I doubt this will ever see the light of day in Rautavaara's lifetime. I hate to say it, but it might have a much better chance of getting out to us after Rautavaara passes. The first symphony isn't really a "high priority" work within Rautavaara's oeuvre at the moment, anyhow.
Is the Harp Concerto recommended?
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 27, 2012, 11:07:51 PM
Is the Harp Concerto recommended?
... and a year goes by...
What is THE Rautavaara piece? Of course, as soon as I wrote that, 'Cantus Acticus' pops into view, but, surely you have a better recommend? I used to have some of the Ondine series, can't remember much,... didn't like the Violin Concerto disc that much, and I've heard he got all New Age-y on us recently.
He looks to much like Gore Vidal, maybe that's what I don't like?
Quote from: snyprrr on July 16, 2013, 06:48:58 AM
... and a year goes by...
What is THE Rautavaara piece?
Throws Symphony 7 into the ring...
For me, Autumn Gardens sums up Rautavaara's musical world perfectly.
Quote from: pencils on July 16, 2013, 08:55:13 AMThrows Symphony 7 into the ring...
For me, the Seventh still does it. But cannot find too much else in his oeuvre to justify his cult status.
Quote from: Christo on February 06, 2015, 01:37:39 PM
For me, the Seventh still does it. But cannot find to much else in his oeuvre to justify his cult status.
I like No.8 too.
In spite of advanced age and ill health, Rautavaara is still composing. A new 20-minute song cycle on the Rubaiyat was premiered (http://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Rautavaara-s-Rub-iy-t-songs-premiered-by-Gerald-Finley/100413) last year and will be performed again in Helsinki next month. Anyone hear it?
I bought my first Rautavaara discs, a 3 CD Naxos boxset (7 euros 8) ) containing works from five Naxos releases. This set contains all the works from Naxos 8.554147
Disc one contains:
Symphony No. 3 - Royal Scottish National Orchestra / Hannu lintu
Isle of Bliss - Netherlands Radio Symphony Orchestra / Eri Klas
Apotheosis - New Zealand Symphony Orchestra / Pietari Inkinen
This is the only disc I have listened so far. I quite liked the symphony. Rautavaara's style is "easy", it's almost cinematic music.
I also borrowed from a friend BIS disc of Symphony No. 8 and Violin Concerto* (Lahti SO/Vänskä/*Kuusisto).
I haven't explored too much Finnish composers and post war composers so exploring Rautavaara help that "problem".
I've been listening to Rautaavara's symphonies today on RDIO and am very moved by the 8th. While it is not earthshakingly modern in syntax nor style, it has an honest lyricism(I mean not artificially singable in a condescending way) that is expressive and interesting to my ear. I love the way he clusters up the melody from time to time. Many composers who start as serial or experimental try to write "tonal" sounding works that only serve to reveal that they might have been hiding behing modernism and have no gift for harmony. Not the case for Rautaavara.
Quote from: Rons_talking on March 29, 2015, 05:41:53 PM
I've been listening to Rautaavara's symphonies today on RDIO and am very moved by the 8th. While it is not earthshakingly modern in syntax nor style, it has an honest lyricism(I mean not artificially singable in a condescending way) that is expressive and interesting to my ear. I love the way he clusters up the melody from time to time. Many composers who start as serial or experimental try to write "tonal" sounding works that only serve to reveal that they might have been hiding behing modernism and have no gift for harmony. Not the case for Rautaavara.
Very interesting point and I agree. I wish that the very opening theme went on a bit longer though. No 8 is my favourite work by Rautavaara and there is a good Naxos disc.
In my recent listening to Rautaavara's 2,3,4,5,7,8th Symphonies it's my opinion that 7 and 8 are the most unified and impressive in a list of mostly first-rate modern symphonic works. I have not yet gone through the concertos systematically, but how anyone can fail to hear how well these works amalgamate the 20th century's developments into a non-hackneyed voice with true force and lyricism is beyond me. Beyond that, those declaring it to be "superficial" are possibly using standards for "structural unity" that apply better to post-war generation music than now. I look forward to some more listening...
Rautavaara:
String Quartet No 4 Sirius String Quartet
Rautavaara:
Cantus Arcticus
Symphony No 5
Leipzig Radio SO/Pommer
A first listen to Rautavaara's works. Intriguing! Overall, I am quite pleased with this first encounter. Both the symphonic works as well as the string quartet were works that appealed to me. Interesting use of bird calls in the Cantus Arcticus! There are sections which are a bit too chaotic for my taste (like Stravinsky on drugs - it does sound like the Rite of Spring at times in the 5th symphony) although the slower and more harmonic sections of these works are mesmerizing in my ears.
I thought that the Sirius String Quartet were quite impressive. However, I do not have a comparative frame at this point in time. What are the other quartets like?
Were these three works a decent gateway to Rautavaara or would you recommend other works to ease a listener into his soundscape?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410537ZCB0L.jpg)(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2012/04/24/rautavaara_wide-0ea77718eeee241958afcd7c67cd226900e4805e-s1100-c15.jpg)
Quote from: Moonfish on April 10, 2015, 05:08:47 PM
Rautavaara:
String Quartet No 4 Sirius String Quartet
Rautavaara:
Cantus Arcticus
Symphony No 5
Leipzig Radio SO/Pommer
A first listen to Rautavaara's works. Intriguing! Overall, I am quite pleased with this first encounter. Both the symphonic works as well as the string quartet were works that appealed to me. Interesting use of bird calls in the Cantus Arcticus! There are sections which are a bit too chaotic for my taste (like Stravinsky on drugs - it does sound like the Rite of Spring at times in the 5th symphony) although the slower and more harmonic sections of these works are mesmerizing in my ears.
I thought that the Sirius String Quartet were quite impressive. However, I do not have a comparative frame at this point in time. What are the other quartets like?
Were these three works a decent gateway to Rautavaara or would you recommend other works to ease a listener into his soundscape?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410537ZCB0L.jpg)(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2012/04/24/rautavaara_wide-0ea77718eeee241958afcd7c67cd226900e4805e-s1100-c15.jpg)
Listen to his
Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light", Peter. Easily his best symphony and the best place to start IMHO.
Quote from: Moonfish on April 10, 2015, 05:08:47 PM
Rautavaara:
String Quartet No 4 Sirius String Quartet
Rautavaara:
Cantus Arcticus
Symphony No 5
Leipzig Radio SO/Pommer
A first listen to Rautavaara's works. Intriguing! Overall, I am quite pleased with this first encounter. Both the symphonic works as well as the string quartet were works that appealed to me. Interesting use of bird calls in the Cantus Arcticus! There are sections which are a bit too chaotic for my taste (like Stravinsky on drugs - it does sound like the Rite of Spring at times in the 5th symphony) although the slower and more harmonic sections of these works are mesmerizing in my ears.
I thought that the Sirius String Quartet were quite impressive. However, I do not have a comparative frame at this point in time. What are the other quartets like?
Were these three works a decent gateway to Rautavaara or would you recommend other works to ease a listener into his soundscape?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410537ZCB0L.jpg)(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2012/04/24/rautavaara_wide-0ea77718eeee241958afcd7c67cd226900e4805e-s1100-c15.jpg)
I love the photo of Rautavaara! I don't know the string quartets so must investigate. There is a great Naxos CD with Symphony 8 'The Journey' on which I would recommend very strongly in addition to John's recommendation.
[asin]B0013JZ4CQ[/asin]
Thanks John and vandermolen! I will check out the recordings you recommended! :)
;D
Quote from: Moonfish on April 10, 2015, 10:41:44 PM
Thanks John and vandermolen! I will check out the recordings you recommended! :)
Let us know what you think.
"When Einojuhani Rautavaara got the new Sharon Bezaly von Bahr's recording of his Flute Concerto, commissioned in 1974 by Robert von Bahr (picture)."
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/13043609_932288043556728_4751245865374069678_n.jpg?oh=ba94c0991ad66047d52ee56bafedc48a&oe=577BA3F6)
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12986937_932287893556743_440566381453476951_n.jpg?oh=e9e01765eb7677525d98a3c4b2c115e7&oe=57BE2679)
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=932288166890049&id=266096413509231
(RvB seems shockingly underdressed to be hugging a Great Composer)
Rautavaara is 87 years old.
Quote from: Brian on April 19, 2016, 12:10:45 PM
"When Einojuhani Rautavaara got the new Sharon Bezaly von Bahr's recording of his Flute Concerto, commissioned in 1974 by Robert von Bahr (picture)."
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/13043609_932288043556728_4751245865374069678_n.jpg?oh=ba94c0991ad66047d52ee56bafedc48a&oe=577BA3F6)
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12986937_932287893556743_440566381453476951_n.jpg?oh=e9e01765eb7677525d98a3c4b2c115e7&oe=57BE2679)
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=932288166890049&id=266096413509231
(RvB seems shockingly underdressed to be hugging a Great Composer)
Rautavaara is 87 years old.
Great and very touching photos - thank you for posting them. Von Bahr looks like he's been jogging and happened to come across Rautavaara's house!
Quote from: Brian on April 19, 2016, 12:10:45 PM
"When Einojuhani Rautavaara got the new Sharon Bezaly von Bahr's recording of his Flute Concerto, commissioned in 1974 by Robert von Bahr (picture)."
On the wall is a poster of one of the famous Unicorn Tapestries from the Cloisters branch of New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Rautavaara died of postoperative complications in Helsinki on Wednesday evening. He was 87 years old.
Quote from: North Star on July 28, 2016, 01:00:47 AM
Rautavaara died of postoperative complications in Helsinki on Wednesday evening. He was 87 years old.
Very sad.
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/the-finnish-composer-einojuhani-rautavaara-has-died
--Bruce
Martin Anderson has put up a 1996 interview (https://toccataclassics.com/einojuhani-rautavaara-symphonist/) he did with Rautavaara about the composer's symphonies. I had forgotten that the Symphony No. 4 "Arabescata" was not the original Fourth, just a piece that Rautavaara choose to replace the original Fourth after he was unsatisfied with it. Are any details known about the original Symphony No. 4? Was it a continuation of the Third's combination of a Romantic idiom with twelve-tone serialism or something different? Hopefully a recording or score is preserved somewhere.
I had christened myself the #1 Rautavaara fanboy over at TalkClassical, but I do suppose I'll have to earn it here.
Quote from: Christo on February 06, 2015, 01:37:39 PM
For me, the Seventh still does it. But cannot find too much else in his oeuvre to justify his cult status.
Listened to most of 7 yesterday... mmm... errr....yea, it sounds like good film music, but, we've all heard this... had it been written in 1926 I would be a little more impressed. I so prefer Kokkonen...
Quote from: snyprrr on July 29, 2016, 11:23:25 AM
Listened to most of 7 yesterday... mmm... errr....yea, it sounds like good film music, but, we've all heard this... had it been written in 1926 I would be a little more impressed. I so prefer Kokkonen...
I prefer Sibelius, but that's not important on this thread. Rautavaara wrote some good music.
Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light" is my favorite of his along with the
Violin Concerto and
Autumn Gardens.
Latest on Forbes:
Einojuhani Rautavaara, Giant Of Beauty: An Obituary
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CojSaZZXEAAxppZ.jpg:large)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/07/29/einojuhani-rautavaara-giant-of-beauty-an-obituary (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/07/29/einojuhani-rautavaara-giant-of-beauty-an-obituary)
Still better than my obit is this 1996 interview of Martin Anderson's: https://toccataclassics.com/einojuhani-rautavaara-symphonist/ (https://toccataclassics.com/einojuhani-rautavaara-symphonist/)
You may wish to edit 'Finish composer' from that obituary. Also, he died on Wednesday, not Thursday.
Quote from: North Star on July 29, 2016, 12:31:11 PM
You may wish to edit 'Finish composer' from that obituary. Also, he died on Wednesday, not Thursday.
Whenever death is involved, I drop that "n".
But seriously. Egg. Face. THANK YOU for catching it!!!
Quote from: jlaurson on July 29, 2016, 12:37:03 PM
Whenever death is involved, I drop that "n".
But seriously. Egg. Face. THANK YOU for catching it!!!
You're welcome. I see the same typo repeated later "Now it is and will be the fate of every Finish composer to be compared to Sibelius–as, for example, with Leevi Madetoja"
Quote from: North Star on July 29, 2016, 12:40:00 PM
You're welcome. I see the same typo repeated later "Now it is and will be the fate of every Finish composer to be compared to Sibelius–as, for example, with Leevi Madetoja"
That's been fixed since. I knew well enough to search for "Finish" before I finished editing those mistakes.
More upsettingly, it was also in the cut'n'paste "blurb" -- and although that's been edited, the first version sticks whenever one shares it on some Social Media site... so that blot of bat spellink is here to stay. :( :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 29, 2016, 11:29:14 AM
I prefer Sibelius, but that's not important on this thread. Rautavaara wrote some good music. Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light" is my favorite of his along with the Violin Concerto and Autumn Gardens.
Sorry to hear of his passing. I hate hearing the film-music comparison because it's not viable IMHO. Sure some cues might sound like Rautavaara but discounting some of his post 2000-works (Tapestry of Life, ie) his output is both melodic challenging and modern. Much of his music would be a distraction to the film-goer. It might
seem atmospheric, but it's very structured at the macro-level. Most of his works reveal serial underpinnings when his scores are analyzed, but his traditional connection to his fatherland lends his vast output a Finnish. His music for voice is stellar.
One less of my favorites here on Earth.
My favorite Rautavaara symphony might be the 4th. The 6th is pretty dang cool though.
Quote from: nathanb on July 29, 2016, 09:28:28 PM
My favorite Rautavaara symphony might be the 4th. The 6th is pretty dang cool though.
Yea, I think I'm preferring his 70s output more...
I'll never know if the friend request on Facebook was one of the last things the composer did in life, or a Facebook hack.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 31, 2016, 11:20:49 AM
I'll never know if the friend request on Facebook was one of the last things the composer did in life, or a Facebook hack.
Golly!
Quote from: karlhenning on July 31, 2016, 11:20:49 AM
I'll never know if the friend request on Facebook was one of the last things the composer did in life, or a Facebook hack.
Does Rautavaara have any known relatives or people that were close to him? Perhaps a family member or close friend took over his account and added you? But it is rather curious indeed.
Quote from: snyprrr on July 31, 2016, 07:23:00 AM
Yea, I think I'm preferring his 70s output more...
Those first three are also excellant.
Einojuhani Rautavaara (born 9 October 1928; died 27 July 2016)
obit from The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jul/28/einojuhani-rautavaara-obituary)
Quote from: king ubu on August 03, 2016, 02:48:29 AM
Einojuhani Rautavaara (born 9 October 1928; died 27 July 2016)
obit from The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jul/28/einojuhani-rautavaara-obituary)
NOOOO! If we're not meant to have any more new Rautavaara, I hope Ondine will cover anything else they might've missed (a few more operas, at least, surely). The man deserves a complete edition, and of course Ondine has already recorded the majority of his stuff...
R.I.P. Einojuhani. Your music was pure magic. I will solemnly listen to your works today, tomorrow, and so forth, until I feel that I have mourned and grieved sufficiently.
Quote from: nathanb on August 03, 2016, 12:56:59 PM
NOOOO! If we're not meant to have any more new Rautavaara, I hope Ondine will cover anything else they might've missed (a few more operas, at least, surely).
As far as I know, with the release of
Kaivos a few years back, Ondine has now made Rautavaara's complete opera output available on disc. There's even a DVD available of his television opera on O. Henry's
The Gift of the Magi.
Quote from: CRCulver on August 03, 2016, 04:17:33 PM
As far as I know, with the release of Kaivos a few years back, Ondine has now made Rautavaara's complete opera output available on disc. There's even a DVD available of his television opera on O. Henry's The Gift of the Magi.
I might call that
extraordinary, only of course there is strong institutional support in Finland for living composers.
In the US, that would not be
extraordinary; it would be science-fiction 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on August 04, 2016, 03:26:34 AM
I might call that extraordinary, only of course there is strong institutional support in Finland for living composers.
In the US, that would not be extraordinary; it would be science-fiction 8)
And not only for living composers, but for orchestras, operas, and musicians as well, making the performance of more than just warhorses feasible.
(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/5/52/Spock_performing_Vulcan_salute.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090320072701&path-prefix=en)
Quote from: North Star on August 04, 2016, 03:46:36 AM
And not only for living composers, but for orchestras, operas, and musicians as well, making the performance of more than just warhorses feasible.
(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/5/52/Spock_performing_Vulcan_salute.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090320072701&path-prefix=en)
I am not envious, that this is true yonder, but not here.
I rejoice that it is true
anywhere :)
Sorry to hear this sad news although he had a long life with increasing recognition.
Symphony 8 'The Journey' is my favourite work of his although I like much else besides.
Quote from: CRCulver on August 03, 2016, 04:17:33 PM
As far as I know, with the release of Kaivos a few years back, Ondine has now made Rautavaara's complete opera output available on disc. There's even a DVD available of his television opera on O. Henry's The Gift of the Magi.
I still need to grab the DVD-only ones.
Rasputin's been sitting in my amazon wishlist forever. Time to make that happen. What of
Apollo Contra Marsyas?
I suppose, though, what Ondine really needs to do is pay more attention to his chamber music. You can find most of it through various other sources, but like I said, it's
Rautavaara Complete Edition time!
CDCDCD Alert!!
We lost a supreme master, back in July. A sad loss.
But thankfully his music will endure. I've only been scratching the surface of his output in the last 18 months or so.
Symphony No. 7, Violin Concerto, Piano Concerto No. 1, Cantus, Vigilia are essential masterworks of his, imo.
And then there's a bunch of other works that I really enjoy.
A Giant of Beauty, indeed.
Latest on ClassicsToday:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Djm0WJTXoAo1ECC.jpg)
Latest on @ClassicsToday: Appreciating Einojuhani Rautavaara–Cello & Piano
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/appreciating-einojuhani-rautavaara-cello-piano/ ...
@OndineRecords #TanjaTetzlaff #GunillaSüssmann (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/appreciating-einojuhani-rautavaara-cello-piano/)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 03, 2018, 10:45:58 AM
Latest on ClassicsToday:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Djm0WJTXoAo1ECC.jpg)
Latest on @ClassicsToday: Appreciating Einojuhani Rautavaara–Cello & Piano
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/appreciating-einojuhani-rautavaara-cello-piano/ ...
@OndineRecords #TanjaTetzlaff #GunillaSüssmann (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/appreciating-einojuhani-rautavaara-cello-piano/)
I'll have to check these out. it's sad to see no one's been on the
Riverboat (unless there's another thread); his music is such a great example of engaging modernism.
I wasn't aware of this thread's existence :-X
I still haven't opened the 2 Ondine boxes of the symphonies and concertos. I have about half of their contents in separate discs or downloads (on cdr). They will now make up a nice rautavaaratheque in my collection. I'll post comments here when I unwrap and start listening to the discs. :)
The concertos and symphonies are a great place to start. Happy listening!
Quote from: André on August 07, 2018, 05:31:41 AM
I wasn't aware of this thread's existence :-X
I still haven't opened the 2 Ondine boxes of the symphonies and concertos. I have about half of their contents in separate discs or downloads (on cdr). They will now make up a nice rautavaaratheque in my collection. I'll post comments here when I unwrap and start listening to the discs. :)
Almost a year has passed ... ::)
I unwrapped the concertos set a few months ago, listened to them and enjoyed the whole lot. Now it's the symphonies set's turn.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/510uZjRUhfL.jpg)
Listened to 1 and 2. Good stuff, but no Athena emerging in full suit of armour from Zeus' head. Not yet. The first movement of I is the most impressive. Rautavaara reworked his maiden effort twice, eventually adding a middle movement to the original 2-movement structure. That they don't quite cohere as a symphony is not really a problem. The new movement - almost 50 years younger than the others (!) is very nice.
Symphony no 2 is more modest in scope, with 4 movements lasting 21 minutes. A good piece.
Athena comes forward hojotoho-ing in the rather extraordinary 3rd symphony. Besides the Max Pommer version I also have the Naxos version conducted by Hannu Lintu. I will give it a listen as well (like right now). Timings are practically identical in all 4 movements. This work would make a fantastic complement to a concert including the 3-movement Bruckner 9. Rautavaara wrote it in 1961 and cannot (?) have known the completed finale of the 9th, but he speaks the same language, with its quotes, near quotes (Romantic symphony, first movement), harmonic language and deconstructed phraseology given a time machine leap of some 65 years (1896-1961). Absolutely stunning.
The history behind the 4th symphony's composition is a tortuous one. Originally written in 1964, Rautavaara withdrew it altogether and replaced it with an earlier piece titled
Arabescata. That 1962 work was written in a strictly serial language, in total contrast to the late-romantic, proto-minimalist 3rd written just one year before. It's as if Schönberg had written his op 31 Variations hard on the heels of
Verklärte Nacht, a huge stylistic ellipse. Bezzarre, but good if one doesn't listen to them in succession (they share the same disc, not a good idea IMO).
Quote from: André on June 16, 2019, 12:23:24 PM
Almost a year has passed ... ::)
I unwrapped the concertos set a few months ago, listened to them and enjoyed the whole lot. Now it's the symphonies set's turn.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/510uZjRUhfL.jpg)
Listened to 1 and 2. Good stuff, but no Athena emerging in full suit of armour from Zeus' head. Not yet. The first movement of I is the most impressive. Rautavaara reworked his maiden effort twice, eventually adding a middle movement to the original 2-movement structure. That they don't quite cohere as a symphony is not really a problem. The new movement - almost 50 years younger than the others (!) is very nice.
Symphony no 2 is more modest in scope, with 4 movements lasting 21 minutes. A good piece.
Athena comes forward hojotoho-ing in the rather extraordinary 3rd symphony. Besides the Max Pommer version I also have the Naxos version conducted by Hannu Lintu. I will give it a listen as well (like right now). Timings are practically identical in all 4 movements. This work would make a fantastic complement to a concert including the 3-movement Bruckner 9. Rautavaara wrote it in 1961 and cannot (?) have known the completed finale of the 9th, but he speaks the same language, with its quotes, near quotes (Romantic symphony, first movement), harmonic language and deconstructed phraseology given a time machine leap of some 65 years (1896-1961). Absolutely stunning.
The history behind the 4th symphony's composition is a tortuous one. Originally written in 1964, Rautavaara withdrew it altogether and replaced it with an earlier piece titled Arabescata. That 1962 work was written in a strictly serial language, in total contrast to the late-romantic, proto-minimalist 3rd written just one year before. It's as if Schönberg had written his op 31 Variations hard on the heels of Verklärte Nacht, a huge stylistic ellipse. Bezzarre, but good if one doesn't listen to them in succession (they share the same disc, not a good idea IMO).
Fascinating observations. I fully loved the traversal through Rautavaara's concerti and symphonies finding them all unique and a logical development from what proceeded even when decades were involved (such as the first symphony with its multiple movements). A wonderful composer.
I enjoy much of his music, especially Symphony 7 'Angel of Light' and Symphony 8 'The Journey'.
I love all the symphonies (No. 8 is my absolute favorite), except the 6th Vincentiana. It's rather diffuse and doesn't grab my attention. The only concertos I like by him are the ones for piano, the Ballad for harp and strings (that is amazing), and Cantus Arcticus. I feel the others too gray, even depressing.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on June 17, 2019, 10:47:21 AM
I love all the symphonies (No. 8 is my absolute favorite), except the 6th Vincentiana. It's rather diffuse and doesn't grab my attention. The only concertos I like by him are the ones for piano, the Ballad for harp and strings (that is amazing), and Cantus Arcticus. I feel the others too gray, even depressing.
No.8 has the most wonderful opening measure, which I wish had been extended a bit longer.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 17, 2019, 10:51:18 AM
No.8 has the most wonderful opening measure, which I wish had been extended a bit longer.
A magical moment indeed. The ending is also impressive, quite visionary and a little cathartic.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on June 17, 2019, 10:47:21 AM
I love all the symphonies (No. 8 is my absolute favorite), except the 6th Vincentiana. It's rather diffuse and doesn't grab my attention. The only concertos I like by him are the ones for piano, the Ballad for harp and strings (that is amazing), and Cantus Arcticus. I feel the others too gray, even depressing.
Aw, man, you need to better hear No. 6. It's amazing with its emphasis on texture at the expense of melody. Still very strong strong and full of development but he's expanding what requires structure. A wonderful work to experience. Think of it like this. You love sushi so you go to a fine restaurant but the chef says "trust me" and gives you stuff you don't quite like but is part of the meal's journey they expect you experience. If you still don't like it, you have no business at a fine dining sushi restaurant.
Quote from: relm1 on June 17, 2019, 04:37:38 PM
Aw, man, you need to better hear No. 6. It's amazing with its emphasis on texture at the expense of melody. Still very strong strong and full of development but he's expanding what requires structure. A wonderful work to experience. Think of it like this. You love sushi so you go to a fine restaurant but the chef says "trust me" and gives you stuff you don't quite like but is part of the meal's journey they expect you experience. If you still don't like it, you have no business at a fine dining sushi restaurant.
Then I'm gonna bear in mind your comparison next time I listen to it, with food in between it should work better ;D :D
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on June 17, 2019, 10:47:21 AM
I love all the symphonies (No. 8 is my absolute favorite), except the 6th Vincentiana. It's rather diffuse and doesn't grab my attention. The only concertos I like by him are the ones for piano, the Ballad for harp and strings (that is amazing), and Cantus Arcticus. I feel the others too gray, even depressing.
I mostly agree with you about the 6th- I don't like the extended passages featuring the synthesizer, though to counter those, there are some very ear-catching moments scattered throughout the work. But yes, it is too diffuse. I'm surprised you don't like the 1st Cello Concerto, a really powerful and accessible work IMO.
I just finished listening to his very fine neo-Brucknerian 3rd Symphony, complete with movement titles in German!
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on June 17, 2019, 02:44:22 PM
A magical moment indeed. The ending is also impressive, quite visionary and a little cathartic.
Yes, definitely and rather moving as is the work as a whole.
Rautavaara is a wonderful composer, one of my favorite contemporary composers in fact but I think I put my finger on one of my personal criticisms of his late style. Lack of tempo variation. This feels dull to a listener in extended works. When you compare his early works like the Symphony No. 3 or Angeles and Visitations, there is a wide range of tempo just like there is with dynamics. In contrast, his Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light", the first movement at 200 bars only has three tempo changes, that is very limited and characteristic of his later style. To me, that is sort of like a mezzo-piano dynamic. A very uninteresting dynamic especially for extended works. I think his music sounds best with more movement. Don't get me wrong, I am happy to hear slowly developing works like "Cantus Acticus" but at their best, these works must perfectly sustain their duration. Momentum needs to be balanced with revelation of novelty and familiarity. Sibelius nailed it. Early Rautavaara did too. Later Rautavaara not as well.
More fans of Rauvataara here. I should know more this composer, nevertheless, though I'm sort of familiar with his creations. As a fan of symphonies as I am, the 8th 'The Journey' is breathtaking. Maybe his best effort in the form, who knows! His themes are visionary in an organic growth, leading to serenely epic catharsis. The 'Ballad for harp and string orchestra' is worth listening.
As for the harmony of what his style intends, is slightly adventurous without falling into modernistic excesses, hence his voice sounds both conventional and advanced at the same time. I often feel he's visceral, he wants to express joy and anger, and unique atmospheres are his speciality.
Sibelius is easily hearable, but through the Rautavaara's prism. Finland is present on him.
What other works do you suggest other than symphonies or concertos? Other miscellaneous works, chamber pieces, choral ones, etc. I'm listening to 'Book of Visions' right now ('A Tale of Nights' just ended). Very cool thus far, catches the ear easily.
I love his chamber music. There is a disk from ondine that I think has two string quartets and a string quintet that is lovely (going off memory) but features much of what you like in his larger works, just more intimate and more immediate. I am not so familiar with his operas but am curious about them. The only opera of his I have is "The Mine" and don't remember it.
I always felt that Rautavaara had similarities with Sibelius but come to think of it, I really can't think of much similarity at all or why I ever thought that. Maybe in how they merge mystic elements of nature and mythology in their music.
Quote from: relm1 on August 27, 2019, 06:09:20 AM
I love his chamber music. There is a disk from ondine that I think has two string quartets and a string quintet that is lovely (going off memory) but features much of what you like in his larger works, just more intimate and more immediate. I am not so familiar with his operas but am curious about them. The only opera of his I have is "The Mine" and don't remember it.
I always felt that Rautavaara had similarities with Sibelius but come to think of it, I really can't think of much similarity at all or why I ever thought that. Maybe in how they merge mystic elements of nature and mythology in their music.
Very good. Thank you!
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/510uZjRUhfL.jpg)
I've listened (twice) to the disc containing symphonies 7 and 8. That's the disc layout, so I simply let the thing proceed as the disc producer had planned it: symphony no 7 followed 6 seconds later by symphony no 8. This proved to be an experiment of sorts. The works are 5 years apart and yet, listened to in succession, it was a bit like hearing the same kind of music - but not the exact same - all over again. I found myself in agreement with the comment made by relm about the tempo/dynamics sameness. But didn't I lay the grounds for this impression by not isolating my listening of the two works ?
It was like listening to symphonies 1 and 2 by Hanson back to back, or Silvestrov 5 and 6, or any two 'mountain' symphonies by Hovhanness (he wrote a dozen such, I reckon). It is of course doing the composer a huge disservice, sort of cheating him of his legitimate right to express himself in the same musical idiom. The hurried listener may want variety, while the composer may want to explore something over again, sort of retracing his steps, so to speak. It made me reflect that the listener can manipulate his own opinion by the context he listens to the music. Anyhow, this is just a way to say that I need to listen to those symphonies separately. Fortunately I have the BIS disc of symphony no 8 (with the violin concerto), so I will be able to hear it in a more objective context.
I found myself in agreement with the comment made by relm about the tempo/dynamics sameness. But didn't I lay the grounds for this impression by not isolating my listening of the two works ?
It was like listening to symphonies 1 and 2 by Hanson back to back, or Silvestrov 5 and 6, or any two 'mountain' symphonies by Hovhanness (he wrote a dozen such, I reckon). It is of course doing the composer a huge disservice, sort of cheating him of his legitimate right to express himself in the same musical idiom. The hurried listener may want variety, while the composer may want to explore something over again, sort of retracing his steps, so to speak. It made me reflect that the listener can manipulate his own opinion by the context he listens to the music. Anyhow, this is just a way to say that I need to listen to those symphonies separately. Fortunately I have the BIS disc of symphony no 8 (with the violin concerto), so I will be able to hear it in a more objective context.
I think that is what separates the great composers from the good ones though. That sense of never repeating themselves because they are constantly moving on and covering new ground...each work picks up where they left off which you have with Mahler, Sibelius, Beethoven, even Bruckner for example. I really felt that in early Raatauvara but less so in his later music. Definitely not in Hovhanness. This doesn't make them bad composers or not worth hearing, just a little sense of disappointment in my ears of wishing it had gone somewhere else.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on August 26, 2019, 05:54:43 PM
I'm listening to 'Book of Visions' right now ('A Tale of Nights' just ended). Very cool thus far, catches the ear easily.
At first I was mildly impressed, but now, having it listened to it, the whole reaction is not necessarily that impressing, but I did enjoy it.
Is there any love for Einojuhani Rautavaara's Études for piano? I just picked up the Laura Mikkola Naxos CD for cheap, on the strength of the first étude, entitled Terssit or "Thirds". Damn fine I think. Somewhere between Scriabin and Debussy.
Is there any reason that I never hear about anyone listening to this composer? Is his music underrated? Is it just not that good? All I have heard is the Etudes and a few other piano works. I understand he has written symphonies; are these worth exploring?
Most importantly: who here has been listening to Rautavaara lately?
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 12, 2019, 03:45:59 PM
Is there any love for Einojuhani Rautavaara's Études for piano? I just picked up the Laura Mikkola Naxos CD for cheap, on the strength of the first étude, entitled Terssit or "Thirds". Damn fine I think. Somewhere between Scriabin and Debussy.
Is there any reason that I never hear about anyone listening to this composer? Is his music underrated? Is it just not that good? All I have heard is the Etudes and a few other piano works. I understand he has written symphonies; are these worth exploring?
Most importantly: who here has been listening to Rautavaara lately?
I don't consider he's too underrated these days. There is plenty of recordings of most of his works in several record labels.
Don't know those Etudes you mention (which must be interesting). The Piano Concertos have attractive ideas too, and they're certainly original but not too challenging.
Of course his symphonies are worth exploring! I really like Nos. 1, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 8. He often conjures up visionary and otherworldly atmospheres which I find fascinating.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 12, 2019, 03:45:59 PM
Is there any love for Einojuhani Rautavaara's Études for piano? I just picked up the Laura Mikkola Naxos CD for cheap, on the strength of the first étude, entitled Terssit or "Thirds". Damn fine I think. Somewhere between Scriabin and Debussy.
Is there any reason that I never hear about anyone listening to this composer? Is his music underrated? Is it just not that good? All I have heard is the Etudes and a few other piano works. I understand he has written symphonies; are these worth exploring?
Most importantly: who here has been listening to Rautavaara lately?
I haven't heard anything of Rautavaara's I did not love but am unfamiliar with the etudes, what disc is this from so I can investigate? There are few composers who have a greater compositional arch and each work makes sense in its place and time so I love exploring his music. Oh his symphonies are fantastic! Very much worth exploring. I personally believe like the finest symphonists, you need to hear them sequentially. Don't fret over his brief excursions into serialism (like No. 2 which is nothing like No. 1 or 3), they still are fascinating excursions in an adventure and have tastes of great color at atmosphere to come. Like the great symphonists, when you arrive at the final symphony (No. 8), it feels like an arrival...a culmination.
Quote from: relm1 on November 12, 2019, 04:08:48 PM
I haven't heard anything of Rautavaara's I did not love but am unfamiliar with the etudes, what disc is this from so I can investigate? There are few composers who have a greater compositional arch and each work makes sense in its place and time so I love exploring his music. Oh his symphonies are fantastic! Very much worth exploring. I personally believe like the finest symphonists, you need to hear them sequentially. Don't fret over his brief excursions into serialism (like No. 2 which is nothing like No. 1 or 3), they still are fascinating excursions in an adventure and have tastes of great color at atmosphere to come. Like the great symphonists, when you arrive at the final symphony (No. 8), it feels like an arrival...a culmination.
Thanks, I will check them out. Is there a good recording to look out for? I am a big fan of much Serialism so I wouldn't fret over it at all if he does something interesting with it.
Here is the disc I have been listening to tonight:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51OC41u0X2L.jpg)
Laura Mikkola on Naxos. Very talented young Finnish pianist. The disc includes the first two piano sonatas (all of them...? I don't know how many he wrote), a suite called Icons, and a set of Preludes in addition to the great Etudes. When I first heard the Thirds etude it was like getting smacked in the face. Damn good music.
Cantus arcticus (concerto for birds and orchestra), composed in 1972, was the work that put Rautavaara on my musical map. I still love this sweet, neo-impressionistic evocation of nordic marshes and flying swans.
https://www.youtube.com/v/8X2FU1KU4_U
Mikko Franck introduced the 8th symphony in Belgium with the NOB. Another favorite. But then I'm not afraid of "Feroce" or "Con grandezza" material.
I'm back on Rautavaara a little bit. I have two Naxos discs of his music. Not sure if I'm ready to make the jump into buying one of the Ondine boxes just yet but the symphonies and concertos boxes both look great, and pretty cheap too. I listened to a handful of his piano works yesterday and I was most impressed with the Piano Concerto No.1, which sounds like a beast to play, but contained some wonderful music. The two piano sonatas are also excellent. I think he is fascinated with stillness, he probably learned much from Debussy's Preludes and Prokofiev's War Sonatas.
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 24, 2020, 01:41:15 AM
I'm back on Rautavaara a little bit. I have two Naxos discs of his music. Not sure if I'm ready to make the jump into buying one of the Ondine boxes just yet but the symphonies and concertos boxes both look great, and pretty cheap too. I listened to a handful of his piano works yesterday and I was most impressed with the Piano Concerto No.1, which sounds like a beast to play, but contained some wonderful music. The two piano sonatas are also excellent. I think he is fascinated with stillness, he probably learned much from Debussy's Preludes and Prokofiev's War Sonatas.
I have the Ondine symphonies box which has given me much pleasure as well as multiple recordings of Symphony No.8 'The Journey' and a couple of Symphony No.7 'Angel of Light'.
Rautavaara is sort of a like a Nordic Impressionist of sorts and I need to get past the fact that I believe his work all has a similar feel to it. This is question for everyone: what two works of his would make for the greatest musical contrast?
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2020, 07:00:06 AM
Rautavaara is sort of a like a Nordic Impressionist of sorts and I need to get past the fact that I believe his work all has a similar feel to it. This is question for everyone: what two works of his would make for the greatest musical contrast?
He went through many phases. I think you should check out his first 3 symphonies (yes, yes, I know you said two works but hear me out). On the Ondine Max Pommer recording of his first three symphonies, you'll get three versions of Rautavaara that are unlike his late style. His Symphony No. 1 is more in the debt of Shostakovitch. Dramatic with bold and dark moments. His Symphony No. 2 is very abstract and serialist, atonal. His Symphony No. 3 is Germanic romanticism echoing Bruckner and probably his boldest (loudest) symphony. To me, in this one disc you get three very different versions of the same composer that is nothing like what he is most commonly known for since his later style came in the mid 1970's and all these works predate that. Like any great composer, their oeuvre is a journey well worth exploring and where they start and where they end is very different and the journey is very enjoyable and worth exploring. Don't diminish him to his last new age persona. He is far more than that.
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Quote from: relm1 on February 24, 2020, 04:18:19 PM
He went through many phases. I think you should check out his first 3 symphonies (yes, yes, I know you said two works but hear me out). On the Ondine Max Pommer recording of his first three symphonies, you'll get three versions of Rautavaara that are unlike his late style. His Symphony No. 1 is more in the debt of Shostakovitch. Dramatic with bold and dark moments. His Symphony No. 2 is very abstract and serialist, atonal. His Symphony No. 3 is Germanic romanticism echoing Bruckner and probably his boldest (loudest) symphony. To me, in this one disc you get three very different versions of the same composer that is nothing like what he is most commonly known for since his later style came in the mid 1970's and all these works predate that. Like any great composer, their oeuvre is a journey well worth exploring and where they start and where they end is very different and the journey is very enjoyable and worth exploring. Don't diminish him to his last new age persona. He is far more than that.
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+1
What you say about Rautavaara also applies to composers like Kancheli, Silvestrov or Penderecki. They are multi-faceted to a surprising degree. Just like Stravinsky before them.
Quote from: relm1 on February 24, 2020, 04:18:19 PMHe went through many phases. I think you should check out his first 3 symphonies (yes, yes, I know you said two works but hear me out). On the Ondine Max Pommer recording of his first three symphonies, you'll get three versions of Rautavaara that are unlike his late style. His Symphony No. 1 is more in the debt of Shostakovitch. Dramatic with bold and dark moments. His Symphony No. 2 is very abstract and serialist, atonal. His Symphony No. 3 is Germanic romanticism echoing Bruckner and probably his boldest (loudest) symphony. To me, in this one disc you get three very different versions of the same composer that is nothing like what he is most commonly known for since his later style came in the mid 1970's and all these works predate that. Like any great composer, their oeuvre is a journey well worth exploring and where they start and where they end is very different and the journey is very enjoyable and worth exploring. Don't diminish him to his last new age persona. He is far more than that.
(https://img.discogs.com/7hTQSVc62w6IBwo637CnEVPdfc0=/fit-in/600x597/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3318112-1325531343.jpeg.jpg)
Thanks for the feedback, relm1.
Having spent a few days with Rautavaara, I am beginning to find my stride. I have always enjoyed the symphonies, but hearing 2 or 3 daily has been a great experience. I feel I am starting to get a grasp of them in a deeper way. Alongside that, I have focused on hearing as much of his almost-symphonies and other works as possible.
Today's high point has been his Book of Visions, a programmatic piece in four movements, describing Tales of Night, Fire, Love and Fate. What a great piece of music. Although I sometimes need several plays of some Rautavaara works to get any sort of purchase on them, his Book of Visions contains real immediacy and beauty. I have thoroughly enjoyed hearing this.
Quote from: foxandpeng on April 30, 2022, 02:04:17 PM
Having spent a few days with Rautavaara, I am beginning to find my stride. I have always enjoyed the symphonies, but hearing 2 or 3 daily has been a great experience. I feel I am starting to get a grasp of them in a deeper way. Alongside that, I have focused on hearing as much of his almost-symphonies and other works as possible.
Today's high point has been his Book of Visions, a programmatic piece in four movements, describing Tales of Night, Fire, Love and Fate. What a great piece of music. Although I sometimes need several plays of some Rautavaara works to get any sort of purchase on them, his Book of Visions contains real immediacy and beauty. I have thoroughly enjoyed hearing this.
He's such a wonderful composer with a very wide range. Reminds me of his countryman, Sibelius, in how anything you pick up with his name will certainly be of high quality even if not quite the style you expect. A very fine composer.
Quote from: relm1 on April 30, 2022, 04:10:45 PM
He's such a wonderful composer with a very wide range. Reminds me of his countryman, Sibelius, in how anything you pick up with his name will certainly be of high quality even if not quite the style you expect. A very fine composer.
Couldn't agree more. I have really come to appreciate what I can only describe with my limited musical capabilities as Rautavaara's ethereal quality. I, at least, know what I mean by that 😁.
Cross-posted from the WAYLT, I have very much benefitted from the two cello concertos this afternoon, which depart a little from that ethereality, but are so worthwhile.
Quote from: foxandpeng on May 01, 2022, 06:07:11 AM
Einojuhani Rautavaara
Cello Concerto #2 'Towards the Horizon'
John Storgårds
Helsinki PO
Cello Concerto #1
Max Pommer
Helsinki PO
Ondine
What beautiful cello concertos. Thoroughly enjoyable. Separated by a good many years and a great deal of music under the bridge, #2 just takes first place, for me. A fine conclusion before his own final horizon, I think.
Rautavaara could never be accused of having a limited view of the numinous or the ethereal, if Angels and Visitations is anything to go by. There are dark and ominous elements to his view of the angelic that are far more in keeping with the majestic and otherworldly Cherubim and Seraphim of Ezekiel and the Old Testament prophets, than are ever found in the chubby cheeked and emasculated art of some Western expectations. This is the smoke and fire of Sinai, rather than the limp and butterfly-winged comfort of modernity.
Fine music which encapsulates a level of mystery, I think!
Quote from: foxandpeng on May 01, 2022, 06:37:11 AM
Rautavaara could never be accused of having a limited view of the numinous or the ethereal, if Angels and Visitations is anything to go by. There are dark and ominous elements to his view of the angelic that are far more in keeping with the majestic and otherworldly Cherubim and Seraphim of Ezekiel and the Old Testament prophets, than are ever found in the chubby cheeked and emasculated art of some Western expectations. This is the smoke and fire of Sinai, rather than the limp and butterfly-winged comfort of modernity.
Fine music which encapsulates a level of mystery, I think!
Agreed, a fine and engaging work. I always got the impression the work was inspired by angelic warfare between the demonic and angelic.
Quote from: foxandpeng on May 01, 2022, 06:37:11 AM
Rautavaara could never be accused of having a limited view of the numinous or the ethereal, if Angels and Visitations is anything to go by. There are dark and ominous elements to his view of the angelic that are far more in keeping with the majestic and otherworldly Cherubim and Seraphim of Ezekiel and the Old Testament prophets, than are ever found in the chubby cheeked and emasculated art of some Western expectations. This is the smoke and fire of Sinai, rather than the limp and butterfly-winged comfort of modernity.
Fine music which encapsulates a level of mystery, I think!
Most interesting description Danny! I like the sound of the Old Testament Prophets (also to be found in Bernstein's 'Jeremiah Symphony' Bloch's 'Israel Symphony' and, I would argue. at the end of Hilding Rosenberg's Symphony No.2 'Sinfonia Grave') and I don't know that Rautavaara CD.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 01, 2022, 10:33:20 PM
Most interesting description Danny! I like the sound of the Old Testament Prophets (also to be found in Bernstein's 'Jeremiah Symphony' Bloch's 'Israel Symphony' and, I would argue. at the end of Hilding Rosenberg's Symphony No.2 'Sinfonia Grave') and I don't know that Rautavaara CD.
Noted with interest! I'll revisit each of these. I have a real love for Rosenberg but it has been ages since I listened to the symphonies. I don't know the Bernstein, but the Bloch I also appreciate. Time to go again 🙂
There is an undoubted departure from predictability and ease in Rautavaara's Angels. I appreciate the recognition of mystery and discomfort.
The Naxos performance with Koivula and the RSNO is also decent, I think. His recordings of the Holmboe Chamber Concertos on Dacapo were ust excellent.
Einojuhani Rautavaara
Angel of Dusk
Jean Jacques Kantorow
Tapiola Sinfonietta
BIS
Cross-posted from the listening thread. Ondine have competition for Rautavaara from releases like this, I think. In my opinion, this concerto for double bass and orchestra is very worthwhile. I also like the coupling with #2, because of the sympathy between the pieces.
Rautavaara's view of the angelic consistently leans more toward gravitas and solemnity, than frivolity or flippancy. There is a meditative quality about the work that lends itself to contemplation, and it leads well into the Quasi Grave of the first movement of #2. I know Rautavaara wasn't a man of organised or dogmatic religion, but his exploration of the unearthly in his music is really satisfying.
Quote from: foxandpeng on May 05, 2022, 06:43:13 AM
Einojuhani Rautavaara
Angel of Dusk
Jean Jacques Kantorow
Tapiola Sinfonietta
BIS
Cross-posted from the listening thread. Ondine have competition for Rautavaara from releases like this, I think. In my opinion, this concerto for double bass and orchestra is very worthwhile. I also like the coupling with #2, because of the sympathy between the pieces.
Rautavaara's view of the angelic consistently leans more toward gravitas and solemnity, than frivolity or flippancy. There is a meditative quality about the work that lends itself to contemplation, and it leads well into the Quasi Grave of the first movement of #2. I know Rautavaara wasn't a man of organised or dogmatic religion, but his exploration of the unearthly in his music is really satisfying.
Nice! Will add it to my listening list.
Quote from: relm1 on May 06, 2022, 04:48:41 AM
Nice! Will add it to my listening list.
Well worth the time.
Einojuhani Rautavaara
String Quartets 1 & 2
Jean Sibelius Quartet
OndineFirst listen Friday, as I start to think about bringing my dash through Rautavaara to a conclusion. Maybe the Quartets and one more romp through the symphonies (if you can romp through Rautavaara), and then on to something else.
I'm only on the final movement of SQ #1, but how good is this? I have always enjoyed Rautavaara, but listening almost exclusively to him for the last fortnight or so has been outstanding - almost akin to the time I spent last year with the Shostakovich SQs. Immersive listening is definitely a thing.
Any thoughts regarding Rautavaara's opera, Rasputin? Generally, how are his operas? I have a recording of "The Mine" but haven't heard any other operas by him and think The Mine was an early work from his more experimental (1960's) phase.
Rautavaaras' Symphony 5 'Monologue with Angels'. The only recorded copy I can get of this is Pommer with Liepzig. It's a good recording, I like it, but I think there is so much more can be done with it than Pommer gives us. I have descended unto tearing my garments and gnashing my dentures under a Willow tree at the non-finding of ANY other recording of Rautavaara's 5th AT ALL. Pommer, it's always the Pommer. This being GMG, I have to ask - does anyone know of another 5th performance?
What a find that would be.
Quote from: mahler10th on April 16, 2024, 03:42:53 PMRautavaaras' Symphony 5 'Monologue with Angels'. The only recorded copy I can get of this is Pommer with Liepzig. It's a good recording, I like it, but I think there is so much more can be done with it than Pommer gives us. I have descended unto tearing my garments and gnashing my dentures under a Willow tree at the non-finding of ANY other recording of Rautavaara's 5th AT ALL. Pommer, it's always the Pommer. This being GMG, I have to ask - does anyone know of another 5th performance?
What a find that would be.
I'm only finding that one listing. Perhaps other performances on youtube or elsewhere?
PD