Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[Florestan]

I'll grant that the "Spring symphony" and the 4th have a freshness and spontaneity that Brahms mostly lacks (but not only in his symphonies, this seems more temperament or general style than age).

I don't know. Very early Brahms sounds pretty fresh and spontaneous to me (eg, the piano sonatas, the ballads op. 10, the piano trio Op. 8 first version, the two serenades op. 11 and op. 16). His later compositions are certainly studied.

[Scion7]

Freshness, you say?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTzh5h2YITs

[Jo498]

I am afraid I don't think that movement in the 4th symphony is very fresh (too massive for that, IMO). There is "fresh sounding" Brahms, even in later works (e.g. the quintet op.111 and even in some of the latest piano pieces), and Schumann's symphonies are not all among his freshest sounding music but in general Brahms deserves the reputation of being somewhat heavy and pensive.

[Scion7]

Oh, that movement was a run in the sunshine for the aging Brahms! 

[Herman]

Freshness, you say?

Brahms's Lieder, gentlemen, if you're looking for freshness.

[Jo498]

The better lieder are also mostly pensive and melancholy, sometimes passionate.
Of course a great composer like Brahms basically covers all emotions/affects and he will also be able to sound spontaneous in a piece he honed meticulously, but I don't think the general prejudice is totally wrong in this case.

[Mandryka]

Fresh

[Herman]

The better lieder are also mostly pensive and melancholy, sometimes passionate.

Part of this may be confirmation bias. Brahms is perceived as pensive and melancholy, so works that sound that way are his best.

These are just nuances. For instance, my favorite Brahms string quartet is nr. 3 in Bflat major. It is more, let's say, 'heiter', happy, than the two opus 51 quartets. But I wouldn't be surprised if some listeners experienced the op 67 as pensive.

[kyjo]

It is my favorite of the four Brahms concertos, actually, just because the others are so large and grand and overstuffed with ideas. I do know that's an unpopular opinion. Spotted Horses is right about the neoclassical feel and simpler structure - he was inspired by Viotti (of all people).

I've never really heard a "bad" recording, as it tends to be tackled by superstar trios of players/conductor, but my favorite is the timeless, fierce Bruno Walter reading with Zino Francescatti and Pierre Fournier. Coupled with a Tragic Overture that Walter makes sound like it comes from the same stern, heart-on-sleeve (rather than stoic) mood.

Totally agree! I've never understood the frequent denigration of the Double Concerto in comparison to Brahms' other three concerti. (Likewise with Beethoven's Triple, my favorite of his concerti, but then again I always tend to favor the underdogs!) I find that the other three concerti have their undoubted moments of high inspiration but also some dead spots, whereas the more concise Double Concerto is inspired throughout. My reference recording is probably Gil Shaham/Jian Wang/BPO/Abbado on DG - burnished and intense.

[Scion7]

You revisionist French and Vlachs!  Kneel before my personal faves!

https://www.clevelandorchestra.com/discover/archives/stories/brahms-concerto-recording/

                      KNEEL !!!!!!!

[Scion7]

Actually, there are many fine performances out there of Opus 102.  These are quite nice, with very good sound on the 1973 Turnabout LP: you can find the digital release on YT.

[lordlance]

I've always loved the Tragic Overture and I was recently making a Dorati Orchestral Discography(ish) where I came across his recording with the Minnesota Orchestra:

Incendiary performance. Hopefully other Dorati will be the same.

Side-note: There's a stereo version of the performance too I have always been confused by some performances have a stereo *and* mono versions. How does that work? They had one mic picking up the entire orchestra for the mono but also multiple mics placed throughout orchestra for the stereo?

[Madiel]

I've always loved the Tragic Overture and I was recently making a Dorati Orchestral Discography(ish) where I came across his recording with the Minnesota Orchestra:

Incendiary performance. Hopefully other Dorati will be the same.

Side-note: There's a stereo version of the performance too I have always been confused by some performances have a stereo *and* mono versions. How does that work? They had one mic picking up the entire orchestra for the mono but also multiple mics placed throughout orchestra for the stereo?

In the period where stereo was only just developing, it was not uncommon to record for stereo but also release a mono version for people who didn't have stereo equipment and/or preferred the mono sound they were more familiar with.

[lordlance]

In the period where stereo was only just developing, it was not uncommon to record for stereo but also release a mono version for people who didn't have stereo equipment and/or preferred the mono sound they were more familiar with.

Did this mean they record it with two distinct recording equipment at the same time or that they downmixed the stereos to mono?

[Madiel]

Did this mean they record it with two distinct recording equipment at the same time or that they downmixed the stereos to mono?

Well it's about the mixing, not just the recording. I found this page which seems like a good discussion of what was going on: https://www.rarerecords.net/record-info/stereo-records-or-mono-records/

[Scion7]

Fine performance, good sound for the time (Sixties), and nice artwork. HOWEVER, what does the cover have to do with Brahms' First Symphony? 

[Opus131]

Is this the most underrated work by Brahms:

I never heard anybody talk about it until i chanced upon it many years ago, and realized it was a major work.

[Spotted Horses]

I've always loved the Tragic Overture and I was recently making a Dorati Orchestral Discography(ish) where I came across his recording with the Minnesota Orchestra:

Incendiary performance. Hopefully other Dorati will be the same.

Side-note: There's a stereo version of the performance too I have always been confused by some performances have a stereo *and* mono versions. How does that work? They had one mic picking up the entire orchestra for the mono but also multiple mics placed throughout orchestra for the stereo?

In the case of the Dorati, the mono Tragic Overture was recorded in 1955 and the stereo recording in 1963. I know that Decca experimented with stereo and had two independent recording teams each with their own equipment to record some opera performances. At the time the stereo versions were not released, although later the stereo versions were released on CD. I never heard of Mercury doing that.

In a mono LP the sound is encoded in horizontal movement of the stylus. In a stereo LP the sum of the two channels is encoded in the horizontal movement of the stylus and the difference of the two channels is encoded in the vertical motion. So a mono pickup playing a stereo record would naturally pick up the sum of the two channels and make a mono mixdown. Then problem was that mono cartridges did not have flexibility for vertical movement of the stylus and the vertical signal would cause problems. Later mono cartridges allowed for vertical movement, although they did not detect it.

So I think that in parallel stereo/mono releases the mono version contained a mix of the left and right channels of the stereo release, which would play as mono on a stereo set and not cause problems on a mono set..

[atardecer]

Is this the most underrated work by Brahms:

I never heard anybody talk about it until i chanced upon it many years ago, and realized it was a major work.

This sounds great, thanks for posting. Wasn't familiar with it but I'm not surprised it is excellent. Brahms output is generally considered to be of consistent high quality. He tended to destroy anything that he felt wasn't well composed. I read the other day he destroyed 17 string quartets (!).

[Jo498]

These numbers about destroyed pieces (I have also read about 20 quartets before the published 1st) should be taken with a grain of salt, I think. However, we know that a companion trio to C major op.87 was so advanced that he showed it Clara and/or Joachim and IIRC one of them preferred! it to the C major but Brahms burned it anyway!
Some people are still mad at Brahms for being "mean" Hans Rott or speaking derogatively about Bruckner but (apart from the sillyness to be mad at a composer who has been dead for 126 years) he a) could be very nice and supportive to musicians whose music he appreciated (most prominently Dvorak) and b) one can hardly expect someone with such exacting standards towards himself to be lenient towards those whose basic aesthetic he didn't share.