Have at it!
I just had a madeleine moment.
Many years ago I was driving at midnight though some rather glamorous parts of London, it was a Friday or Saturday night, midsummer. The streets were crowded with beautiful and rich people enjoying city life. And on the car radio was playing The Prague Symphony. And the combination of music and place made me very happy to be alive.
For no good reason, I just started listening to Herbert Blomstedt's recording on Denon, and that sense of well-being returned very palpably. It made me think that I need to find a place in my life for Mozart's symphonies again.
(https://i.discogs.com/BxQs-uIBQxzqO_9uYW1gY4f3_52t9uljsP7iJ3HERy8/rs:fit/g:sm/q:40/h:300/w:300/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE1ODk0/OTM3LTE1OTk3NTIz/NDAtNDU3Ny5qcGVn.jpeg)
I think I first came to love the symphony in a Bohm recording which I now consider rather prosaic. I really learned what it is about with the Harnoncourt, RCO, which I had on vinyl.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/8112M2MCvpL._SL1200_.jpg)
(https://i.discogs.com/Z9H4Ot0LjZzW4UqIHnXXznNNVZxU5NDH8QxYXq_urhU/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:490/w:490/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEwNzY0/MzktMTU1OTQ2MjMy/Ni00MTQ2LmpwZWc.jpeg)
Pinnock, Kripps, Tate, Marriner.
That's probably the first Mozart symphony I distinctly remember hearing as a teenager. It was an LP of 38+39 with Sawallisch/Czech PO. I definitely got to know these two and even a few early ones before 40+41!
Almost 2 years ago I found that Sawallisch recording on CD (last 4 symphonies) but I think it's a bit too straightforward, good, but not very special. My first on CD was Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw. This certainly qualifies for excentric with large orchestra, Harnoncourtesque mannerisms slowish tempo in the first movement and all repeat, so it lasts almost 20 min...
The "classic" recommendation is Maag on Decca (ca. 1960). This is also rather straightforward but has more energy than Sawallisch and very good sound for the vintage, so its reputation is deserved. The later Maag with an Italian orchestra on Arts is a bit more flexible and lyrical, colorful smallish orchestra and also quite good.
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41KumsM8qnL.__AC_SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
15 years ago, which is about the last time I listened to this symphony, I was really impressed with the one here. So I'm giving it another go. Now the rubato just feels unnecessary and intrusive, but I've learned that how rubato feels is a very variable thing - one person's meat is another person's poison in the rubato department, and I can feel differently myself depending on how the wind blows.
More worryingly is a heaviness, unsmilingness.
Some of the older ones - the two Maags for example - are too blended a sonority for me. Big international symphony orchestra values, if not faultless implementation of those values. I want to hear the attacks and I want to hear the timbres, I don't want all the music tidily aligned and sweetly consonant. Harnoncourt's sound is one of the main positives about the recording.
I have Bruggen, I don't recall what it is like. There is also Mackerras/Prague, which would be less homogenized than the traditional recordings (but with a harpsichord tinkling away). I seem to have remarkably few recordings of the Mozart symphonies, though I love them.
I stand by Harnoncourt, Concertgebouw, idiosyncrasies notwithstanding.
Well I'm just gonna weigh in in favor of good ol' Bruno Walter, who wasn't HIP or anything, but man did he know how to conduct Mozart.
Both the Columbia SO and NYPO recordings are excellent.
Jacobs for me
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519cfudsLLL._SY445_SX342_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
On the traditional side, Bohm who was such a marvelous Mozartean in all of his recordings.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 02, 2022, 06:40:08 PM
Well I'm just gonna weigh in in favor of good ol' Bruno Walter, who wasn't HIP or anything, but man did he know how to conduct Mozart.
Both the Columbia SO and NYPO recordings are excellent.
There is also Bruno Walter WPO (live) on DG.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 02, 2022, 10:14:55 AM
That's probably the first Mozart symphony I distinctly remember hearing as a teenager. It was an LP of 38+39 with Sawallisch/Czech PO. I definitely got to know these two and even a few early ones before 40+41!
Very interesting!
I rather like
Jaap ter Linden, here.
I believe Rafael Kubelik did another with Chicago on Mercury, but I think I prefer his Bavarian recording.
VS
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/817c5vaCNUL._SL1500_.jpg)
Quote from: VonStupp on July 03, 2022, 07:53:23 AM
I believe Rafael Kubelik did another with Chicago on Mercury, but I think I prefer his Bavarian recording.
I forgot I have that! :)
Quote from: Mandryka on July 02, 2022, 01:15:50 PM
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41KumsM8qnL.__AC_SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
I got this years ago but never listened to it because back then, DVDs were a hassle and I never mentally got used to the fact that they aren't any more with my current setup...
Quote
Some of the older ones - the two Maags for example - are too blended a sonority for me. Big international symphony orchestra values, if not faultless implementation of those values. I want to hear the attacks and I want to hear the timbres,
I think that's not quite fair about the second 1990s? Maag recording with a smallish Italian orchestra; sure, it's still far from HIP but not streamlined (in fact the coupled #39 is so mannered in the finale that I don't like it).
It's probably also too blended for you despite the dryish mono (or very early stereo) sound but a "tough"/lean and mean historical one is Markevitch/DG (not sure about details and availability, I have it in a box).
Quote from: Jo498 on July 03, 2022, 08:33:16 AM
I got this years ago but never listened to it because back then, DVDs were a hassle and I never mentally got used to the fact that they aren't any more with my current setup...
I think that's not quite fair about the second 1990s? Maag recording with a smallish Italian orchestra; sure, it's still far from HIP but not streamlined (in fact the coupled #39 is so mannered in the finale that I don't like it).
It's probably also too blended for you despite the dryish mono (or very early stereo) sound but a "tough"/lean and mean historical one is Markevitch/DG (not sure about details and availability, I have it in a box).
No what I said wasn't fair about the second Maag, which I enjoyed much more. Listened to Norrington (Stuttgart) this morning, and to Mackerras (Scottish) last night, but my mind has been rather occupied more by Reger op 74 than by this symphony! I can say that the Mackerras was nicer than in memory - his Czech recording of the Prague used to be a favourite (but I can't find it!)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Ps4CM2SAL._SS500_.jpg)
A much more interesting sound on this Hogwood recording. Pretty conventional at the level of poetry, I mean there are no unexpected affekts. Alert, but still there's something deeply unsatisfactory about it. It's as if I'm hearing a well oiled and well practised machine - all the pistons and cogwheels working perfectly in synch. I don't like that, if that's what classical music is about then I don't have a place for it. I don't think music should sound like it's being played by a machine. I don't want to single out Hogwood for a bashing, nearly all of them are like that. And Hogwood's machine sounds good.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 02, 2022, 01:15:50 PM
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41KumsM8qnL.__AC_SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
And this is the big big advantage of this Harnoncourt DVD. They don't sound like clockwork. It's just that, at the level of affekt, expression, they are revisionary and it takes a bit of mental adjustment. Maybe the way to put it is like this: Harnoncourt is more Don Giovanni than Cosi.
The symphony has been related to both Don Giovanni (intro, first mvmt.) and Figaro (finale), certainly also because Prague had a special affinity with these operas. Even beyond the intro the first movement is very dramatic and often dark, e.g. the plaintive bassoon figure in the second theme group.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 03, 2022, 08:10:28 AM
I forgot I have that! :)
Started listening to the Kubelik/Chicago recording of Mozart Symphony No 38 on Mercury. Dreary in the extreme.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 04, 2022, 10:32:50 AM
Started listening to the Kubelik/Chicago recording of Mozart Symphony No 38 on Mercury. Dreary in the extreme.
That's unfortunate.
(https://imusic.b-cdn.net/images/item/original/751/0881488705751.jpg?bruckner-mozart-skd-haitink-2009-symphony-no-8-prager-symphony-d-dur-kv-504-cd&class=scaled)
Started to explore this live one from Haitink in Dresden. Lovely sound, lovely orchestral sound, and a lively interpretation - it moves forward at all times, without ever feeling driven.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 03, 2022, 10:59:08 PM
A much more interesting sound on this Hogwood recording. Pretty conventional at the level of poetry, I mean there are no unexpected affekts. Alert, but still there's something deeply unsatisfactory about it. It's as if I'm hearing a well oiled and well practised machine - all the pistons and cogwheels working perfectly in synch. I don't like that, if that's what classical music is about then I don't have a place for it. I don't think music should sound like it's being played by a machine. I don't want to single out Hogwood for a bashing, nearly all of them are like that. And Hogwood's machine sounds good.
I feel that much of Mozart's music sound in this way, whoever is playing.
Has our age got Mozart wrong?
Quote from: Mandryka on July 03, 2022, 10:59:08 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Ps4CM2SAL._SS500_.jpg)
A much more interesting sound on this Hogwood recording. Pretty conventional at the level of poetry, I mean there are no unexpected affekts. Alert, but still there's something deeply unsatisfactory about it. It's as if I'm hearing a well oiled and well practised machine - all the pistons and cogwheels working perfectly in synch. I don't like that, if that's what classical music is about then I don't have a place for it. I don't think music should sound like it's being played by a machine. I don't want to single out Hogwood for a bashing, nearly all of them are like that. And Hogwood's machine sounds good.
And this is the big big advantage of this Harnoncourt DVD. They don't sound like clockwork. It's just that, at the level of affekt, expression, they are revisionary and it takes a bit of mental adjustment. Maybe the way to put it is like this: Harnoncourt is more Don Giovanni than Cosi.
I also find Hogwood to be dull and colorless. Bruggen has a bit more spirit, and Fischer and Macerras have some life, but I find there is no substitute for my favorite, Harnoncourt RCO
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 05, 2022, 09:34:39 AM
I also find Hogwood to be dull and colorless. Bruggen has a bit more spirit, and Fischer and Macerras have some life, but I find there is no substitute for my favorite, Harnoncourt RCO
Harnoncourt Concertgebauw is exceptional - I wonder if you will enjoy Norrington Stuttgart.
I like Linden with the Mozart Akademie Amsterdam too, but that's not quite what the man asked for; he wants the 3 Is, Interesting, Iconic and Iconoclastic, in which case (even though I'm sure we've laughed at it elsewhere on this forum) Trigger's karaoke version ticks all three boxes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efBBWQ622-s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efBBWQ622-s)
Quote from: DaveF on July 05, 2022, 12:12:36 PM
I like Linden with the Mozart Akademie Amsterdam too, but that's not quite what the man asked for; he wants the 3 Is, Interesting, Iconic and Iconoclastic, in which case (even though I'm sure we've laughed at it elsewhere on this forum) Trigger's karaoke version ticks all three boxes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efBBWQ622-s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efBBWQ622-s)
Hah!
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2022, 11:47:54 AM
Harnoncourt Concertgebauw is exceptional - I wonder if you will enjoy Norrington Stuttgart.
I have Norrington/Orchestra of the 18th Century(?) somewhere, but now I'm intrigued with Stuttgart. I know Sarge likes that pairing, in general.
Note added:
Found some samples to listen to, and I'm intrigues. Strong dynamic contrasts, driven. And I found the 6 CD set used for a very good price, so I'm in. :)
There are three things that are a big help in Mozart symphonies. First and second violins split, woodwind sound is prominent, timpani are aggressive, not just a polite rumble in the background, and brass timbre has some edge without being too loud. The brass timbre is helped by period instruments, which produce a raspy tone without excessive volume. And the conduct should be somewhat nuts.
My favourite Mozart symphony. The first movement is almost a symphony in itself, but it must not be overdone. It's not the Supper scene in Don Giovanni, after all.
Personal favourites include Böhm WP (just short of being doomsdayesque, with vibrant WP playing), Suitner RSO Berlin (simply perfect), Bour SWF (exhilarating and perfectly proportioned).
Harnoncourt overdoes it, but he has the Regal Concertgebouw playing like gods and goddesses. Walter, Karajan (DG) and Kubelik are excellent. I don't like small vibratoless string sections and explosive timpani, so that rules out most HIP recordings.
Quote from: André on July 06, 2022, 06:37:32 AM
My favourite Mozart symphony. The first movement is almost a symphony in itself, but it must not be overdone. It's not the Supper scene in Don Giovanni, after all.
Personal favourites include Böhm WP (just short of being doomsdayesque, with vibrant WP playing), Suitner RSO Berlin (simply perfect), Bour SWF (exhilarating and perfectly proportioned).
Harnoncourt overdoes it, but he has the Regal Concertgebouw playing like gods and goddesses. Walter, Karajan (DG) and Kubelik are excellent. I don't like small vibratoless string sections and explosive timpani, so that rules out most HIP recordings.
Do you mean Dresden for the Suitner? This
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FL6pMrJSqkw
It is astonishing! I am, quite literally, strapped to my seat by it. If there is another one and it's more impressive than this, I can't imagine.
Found this
(https://i.ibb.co/ykp1MYW/cover.jpg)
Quote from: André on July 06, 2022, 06:37:32 AM
My favourite Mozart symphony. The first movement is almost a symphony in itself, but it must not be overdone. It's not the Supper scene in Don Giovanni, after all.
Personal favourites include Böhm WP (just short of being doomsdayesque, with vibrant WP playing), Suitner RSO Berlin (simply perfect), Bour SWF (exhilarating and perfectly proportioned).
Harnoncourt overdoes it, but he has the Regal Concertgebouw playing like gods and goddesses. Walter, Karajan (DG) and Kubelik are excellent. I don't like small vibratoless string sections and explosive timpani, so that rules out most HIP recordings.
Re the Bour, it's quite an achievement and what you say is correct. Really effective, his way of building up to the climaxes. He is an interesting musician - I know him through a recording of very uncompromising music by Rihm, Lachenmann and Holliger. There's a lot of Bour's Mozart available streaming, by the way.
Listening to the exhilarating Suitner made me think of Bruno Maderna's Prague symphony - I enjoyed Suitner more, but that's maybe just because I've listened too much to the music today.
This one:
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/115/MI0001115957.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
It's actually the Staatskapelle Berlin, the orchestra of the Berlin State Opera - not the RSO Berlin as I first stated (they did many recordings together). Suitner recorded nos 39-41 with the Staatskapelle Dresden and they are pure magic.
https://www.youtube.com/v/DqWbWURosGs
Dresden + Ancerl in 1959.I was looking for Fricsay (afaik he did not record 38) and found this.
Lovely.
Now listening to
https://www.youtube.com/v/JOpojuXZBJU
No, unless there is a radio broadcast in/from some archive, Fricsay only recorded 29 (2x), 35, 39, 40, 41 (2x).
The Markevitch/DG is not dissimilar to the early "Toscaninian" Fricsay style, though.