GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: bwv 1080 on July 02, 2007, 09:46:53 AM

Poll
Question: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach ?
Option 1: Konzert für Streichquartett und Orchester (B-Dur) nach dem Concerto grosso  (Schönberg / Handel) votes: 6
Option 2: Ricercar a 6 (Webern / Bach) votes: 4
Title: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 02, 2007, 09:46:53 AM
I am of the opinion that Schönberg/Handel's Konzert für Streichquartett und Orchester (B-Dur) nach dem Concerto grosso
opus 6 Nr. 7 von Georg Friedrich Händel (in freier Umgestaltung)
has been greatly undersold by the musical 'intelligencia'. Undersold especially in relation to Webern / Bach, whose Ricercar a 6 seems to be admired way beyond what his output deserves in my opinion, it seems there is a 'cult of the Webern/Bach Ricercar a 6' almost, that keeps the likes of Schönberg/Handel's Konzert für Streichquartett und Orchester (B-Dur) nach dem Concerto grosso
opus 6 Nr. 7 von Georg Friedrich Händel (in freier Umgestaltung)
in his place.
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: karlhenning on July 02, 2007, 09:58:47 AM
Where's the outrage?
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 02, 2007, 10:34:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 02, 2007, 09:58:47 AM
Where's the outrage?

I tell ya, I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: PSmith08 on July 02, 2007, 10:38:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 02, 2007, 09:58:47 AM
Where's the outrage?

Over on the "Handel-the-Mighty vs. Bach-the-Fraud" thread. With Outrage's busy schedule, you can't expect it to be everywhere all the time. In fact, Outrage has been outsourcing several issues a week to Apathy and Ennui. With all the injustice in the world, Outrage just can't handle the load. You'd be surprised how capable Apathy and Ennui are, though. Real go-getters, well as go-getter-y as Apathy and Ennui can be.
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: BachQ on July 02, 2007, 12:25:30 PM
Handel is clearly greater than Bach
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: Mark G. Simon on July 02, 2007, 01:47:10 PM
Webern/Bach is a great way to introduce people to Webern's pointilistic orchestration techniques without having to subject them to (eeuw!) dissonant Webern music.

Schoenberg/Handel and Schoenberg/Monn are peculiar half-breeds which show neither Schoenberg nor his baroque models in their best light.  (IMHO)
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 02, 2007, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on July 02, 2007, 01:47:10 PM
Webern/Bach is a great way to introduce people to Webern's pointilistic orchestration techniques without having to subject them to (eeuw!) dissonant Webern music.

Schoenberg/Handel and Schoenberg/Monn are peculiar half-breeds which show neither Schoenberg nor his baroque models in their best light.  (IMHO)

Actually I would agree with this.  Especially with the option to listen to Schnittke's Concerto Grossi if you really want modernized baroque music.
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: not edward on July 02, 2007, 03:18:14 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 02, 2007, 02:08:49 PM
Actually I would agree with this.  Especially with the option to listen to Schnittke's Concerto Grossi if you really want modernized baroque music.
True, though the Schoenberg/Handel is hilariously stupid (in a good way).
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: scottscheule on July 02, 2007, 06:06:32 PM
Silly. 

All music is equal and therefore all composers are equal.
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: Kullervo on July 03, 2007, 05:10:15 PM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 02, 2007, 06:06:32 PM
Silly. 

All music is equal and therefore all composers are equal.

So, Kajagoogoo is on the same artistic level as Sibelius? :)
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 03, 2007, 06:50:51 PM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 02, 2007, 06:06:32 PM
Silly. 

All music is equal and therefore all composers are equal.

if Handel = Bach = Webern = Schoenberg

then

Schoenberg + Handel > Bach
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: beclemund on July 03, 2007, 09:53:59 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 03, 2007, 06:50:51 PM
if Handel = Bach = Webern = Schoenberg

then

Schoenberg + Handel > Bach

Likewise

Handel < Bach + Kajagoogo
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: Rod Corkin on July 03, 2007, 10:26:46 PM
Quote from: beclemund on July 03, 2007, 09:53:59 PM
Likewise

Handel < Bach + Kajagoogo


Bach > Handel = not an eyebrow raised
Handel > Bach = panic & disorientation

"I live for this kind of thing..."
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: lukeottevanger on July 04, 2007, 04:28:17 AM
Whatever floats your boat.....
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: Rod Corkin on July 04, 2007, 04:42:30 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 04, 2007, 04:28:17 AM
Whatever floats your boat.....

I was quoting Sergeant.

But the above is proof that having a distinct preference IS socially acceptable...as long as the socially acceptable preference is actually made.
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: lukeottevanger on July 04, 2007, 05:08:10 AM
Yes, you may have mentioned that before. You may have been quoting Sargeant, but you still can't resist the opportunity to repeat this little hang-up of yours again. Still, as I said, if it floats your boat.

But, honestly, you think it is socially unacceptable to prefer Handel to Bach? To think Handel greater than Bach? Not at all, no more than preferring Haydn to Mozart, or thinking him greater. It's only your crowing, derisory tone that riles, and you know it - you use inflammatory language and tactics to stir people up, so that you can seize on their consternation to claim you have exposed some kind of conspiracy. If that's how you want to spend your life, do enjoy it.
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 04, 2007, 05:56:08 AM
Quote from: Rod Corkin on July 03, 2007, 10:26:46 PM
Handel > Bach = panic & disorientation

...and looting and hording; barricading of doors and windows against the walking zombies whose minds have been stunned senseless by the truth...your holy truth that Handel is demonstrably the greater composer. It's so sad and pathetic that people simply will not listen to you and instead go running away into the night with their ears covered, screaming, "No! We refuse to listen to clips! We refuse to believe! We know Bach is God!...Bach is God...Bach is God....."

Well, the fact is prophets have always been ignored and been called crazy. The world is full of heretics. You'll just have to live with that, Rod. But with your certainty and sense of righteousness that shouldn't be difficult. You might want to seek out the comfort of other prophets of your ilk: Pink Harp and paulb.

Sarge
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: Rod Corkin on July 04, 2007, 06:30:29 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 04, 2007, 05:08:10 AM
Yes, you may have mentioned that before. You may have been quoting Sargeant, but you still can't resist the opportunity to repeat this little hang-up of yours again. Still, as I said, if it floats your boat.

But, honestly, you think it is socially unacceptable to prefer Handel to Bach? To think Handel greater than Bach? Not at all, no more than preferring Haydn to Mozart, or thinking him greater. It's only your crowing, derisory tone that riles, and you know it - you use inflammatory language and tactics to stir people up, so that you can seize on their consternation to claim you have exposed some kind of conspiracy. If that's how you want to spend your life, do enjoy it.

I don't spend my life doing this, I have a wife, a kid, a job in IBM right next to the Royal Festival Hall in London. Enough to keep me busy. But there is a deviant character to the academic Musical world for sure. If not a conspiracy and inbred cronyism. Over the years I have discovered a lot of B***S*** has been delivered from these guys as wisdom.

Even withing my personal sphere of specialisation how many times did I read that Beethoven's metronome marks are a mistake to be ignored, or more bizarrely that his piano music could not be performed on the pianos of his own time!? I recall a choral workshop on TV where the professor was working though choruses from Messiah. When making a specific compositional point he could not resist to add 'but Bach would have done it better'. All utter utter nonsense uttered by professors and professional performers alike. Well I for one am not taken in by any of it, and my taste and judgement is all the better for it.

You cannot teach people taste. You either have it or you don't. For example even a well known and respected name like Tchaikovsky thought Beethoven's late quartets were rubbish. Maybe this goes some way to explaining the awfulness of his own output.
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: scottscheule on July 04, 2007, 08:15:21 AM
Quote from: Kullervo on July 03, 2007, 05:10:15 PM
So, Kajagoogoo is on the same artistic level as Sibelius? :)

According to a surprisingly large amount of posters here.
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: Kullervo on July 04, 2007, 08:35:50 AM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 04, 2007, 08:15:21 AM
According to a surprisingly large amount of posters here.

Okay. I'm not familiar with your posts to tell whether or not you were being sarcastic.

In all seriousness, I really do hate the democratization of taste (i.e. "it's not bad, it's just different!")
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: PSmith08 on July 04, 2007, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 04, 2007, 08:15:21 AM
According to a surprisingly large amount of posters here.

We need one-minute clips to seal the deal! With clips alone I shall prove Roxette>Kajagoogoo>Sibelius>Bach>Handel! Judgments on entire oeuvres can be made on the basis of one-minute sound clips arbitrarily chosen!

Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: scottscheule on July 04, 2007, 10:53:10 AM
Quote from: Kullervo on July 04, 2007, 08:35:50 AM
Okay. I'm not familiar with your posts to tell whether or not you were being sarcastic.

In all seriousness, I really do hate the democratization of taste (i.e. "it's not bad, it's just different!")

High five!
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: scottscheule on July 04, 2007, 11:00:02 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 04, 2007, 10:07:28 AM
We need one-minute clips to seal the deal! With clips alone I shall prove Roxette>Kajagoogoo>Sibelius>Bach>Handel! Judgments on entire oeuvres can be made on the basis of one-minute sound clips arbitrarily chosen!



I thought your position was that such judgments were simply impossible, no matter how much research is done.
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: PSmith08 on July 04, 2007, 11:04:39 AM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 04, 2007, 11:00:02 AM
I thought your position was that such judgments were simply impossible, no matter how much research is done.

I thought humor occasionally worked on the mighty Interweb, but it seems I sent my rapier-like wit down the wrong sequence of tubes.  ;)
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: scottscheule on July 04, 2007, 12:13:46 PM
Sure it does, but when one sarcastically affirms a position, they typically are affirming the opposite.  So if I say, sarcastically, "Right, like quality can be compared by one-minute clips and not entire oeuvres!" the implication is that I really believe: "Quality can be compared on the basis of entire oeuvres and not by one-minute clips."

So what puzzled me, or at what least seemed promising as an avenue to further discussion, is you don't believe the opposite either.
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: PSmith08 on July 04, 2007, 06:05:38 PM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 04, 2007, 12:13:46 PM
Sure it does, but when one sarcastically affirms a position, they typically are affirming the opposite.  So if I say, sarcastically, "Right, like quality can be compared by one-minute clips and not entire oeuvres!" the implication is that I really believe: "Quality can be compared on the basis of entire oeuvres and not by one-minute clips."

So what puzzled me, or at what least seemed promising as an avenue to further discussion, is you don't believe the opposite either.

You can compare quality all you want, as soon as you recognize that the comparisons - indeed, the "quality" itself - is subjective. The comparisons are of no objective value whatsoever, but if they help you articulate why you like something (and not something else), then they're not all for naught. We should, however, not fool ourselves into thinking any objective judgment on art is even remotely possible. It is not, never has been, and never will be. Subjective judgments, though, and their articulation and refinement (though there is a limit on it in a mathematical sense, just to close my barn door here) forms the basis of what we call aesthetics and criticism.
Title: Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
Post by: scottscheule on July 04, 2007, 06:06:50 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 04, 2007, 06:05:38 PM
You can compare quality all you want, as soon as you recognize that the comparisons - indeed, the "quality" itself - is subjective. The comparisons are of no objective value whatsoever, but if they help you articulate why you like something (and not something else), then they're not all for naught. We should, however, not fool ourselves into thinking any objective judgment on art is even remotely possible. It is not, never has been, and never will be. Subjective judgments, though, and their articulation and refinement (though there is a limit on it in a mathematical sense, just to close my barn door here) forms the basis of what we call aesthetics and criticism.

I would think subjective judgments form the basis of everything.  What am I missing?