Recent performances here in Boston of the Sixth Symphony and the Tallis Fantasia were particular highlights of the season, from this senator's standpoint.
Must be trouble finding a wind machine for No. 7 ;D
I wish someone would program RVW in my neck of the woods! I don't understand why Nos. 4 & 7 in particular aren't preformed more often.
O, you'll have to plan a trip to Stuttgart this June: Norrington has the Fourth programmed along with the Elgar Violin Concerto (Hilary Hahn).
Still waiting for me to be heard is the complete set with Haitink on EMI.
I should start with that soon I guess! :)
It's a great one. I just got that recently. Best Antartica without narration.
You are kidding me right?
Are you saying its without this irritating narration?
Then indeed it is a great one.
Heard some fragments from the 5th & 6th symphonies.
Awesome!
Yes, Haitink's Antartica is without narration. Boult has the traditionally used poems that RVW put in the original score. Leppard (Indianapolis SO) has a very fine recording with an alternative narration of excerpts from Scott's diaries, which I think works better. Allegedly, Leppard discussed this idea with RVW personally.
I mentioned it in another thread - but I invite you all to Antwerp for :
Vaughan Williams Symfonie nr. 1, ‘A sea symphony’
Thursday 26 april 2007 | 19:45 | Open Repetition | Filharmonisch Huis
Vrijdag 27 april 2007 | 20:00 | Koningin Elisabethzaal
Soile Isokoski – sopraan | David Wilson-Johnson – bariton | Philippe Herreweghe – dirigent
deFilharmonie | KoorAcademie | Huddersfield Choral Society
This could be a very interesting start . I wasntable to find out if Herreweghe has plans to perform more RVW..!?
If I didn't have a violent allergy to everything Norrington does, I would consider it, if only to hear Hahn.... BTW, you still owe us a full acount of your trip to Berlin.
That is a terrific concert program . . . I admit, I mentally added a question mark to the conductor's name :-)
Karl, O, I'm of two minds about Norrington: I love his ... Berlioz
Really?...
The only Haitink I've heard is the Pastoral and the Fourth, and it is mighty good.
Haitink's Seventh is magnificent, too; it's arguably the greatest recording ever of this fascinating piece. It deserved that Gramophone award (best orchestral record of 1986).Sarge,
Sarge
Sarge,
I do not own any Haitinks VW. I cannot say its the greatest recording..I will have to listen for it as the seventh is one of my favs.....On the other hand, I do not put much credibility into anything gramophone recommends...
Haitink's Seventh is magnificent, too; it's arguably the greatest recording ever of this fascinating piece. It deserved that Gramophone award (best orchestral record of 1986).
Sarge
Haitink: indeed a great set and as I remember a cheap buy, in the Netherlands, that is. But I caný say that Bernard beats Vernon Handley's set (EMI Eminence).
X
Yes, Haitink's Antartica is without narration. Boult has the traditionally used poems that RVW put in the original score. Leppard (Indianapolis SO) has a very fine recording with an alternative narration of excerpts from Scott's diaries, which I think works better. Allegedly, Leppard discussed this idea with RVW personally.
Boult's EMI version of No 7 does not contain the spoken superscriptions before the music.
The Boult Decca recording (the only one I have) has Gielgud reciting the poems.
Besides the 3 Chandos film music CDs, I only have:
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/VaughanW_completeCFP.jpg)
I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, but what I like about the packaging of this box is that all the cd's are in individual jewel cases instead of sleeves in a box that most seem to be released in these days.
Wouldn't that make for a very wide box that wastes storage space?
Vaughan Williams' The Death of Tintagiles based on a play by Maurice Maeterlinck of the same name (La Mort de Tintagiles)
Well, it is official: I like A London Symphony, which means that I now like all the set of nine. Not sure who the performers were in the recording I heard a couple of years ago.
So, with this favorable acquaintance with No. 2, and the love-at-first-hearing audition of Job, I feel that the Handley set has done its work. Yet more than that, though, the recordings of Nos. 7, 8 & 9 in this set are even better than the Bakels Naxos recordings, which first 'sold' me on those pieces.
Probably the next Vaughan Williams 'blindspot' I need to attend to is the Mass in G Minor.
Which is the best RVW? ALL OF IT! ;D Well I am partial to the 8th, which is my favorite piece of music of all time.
As far as his obscure music is concerned, The Romance for Harmonica, Strings and Piano is excellent, I love his String Partitia, His Piano Concerto, his Oboe Concerto, His Tuba Concerto, all excellent!
There is something about his modal use, his distinct sense of rhythms through the symphonies, his undying passion for folk music, and his sense of classicism that makes his music really stick out to me. One of my favorite quotes from Vaughan Williams Studies by Alain Frogley is "the counterbalancing belief in things of the spirit," which is one of the themes presumed to be found in all Vaughan Williams' symphonies. This I believed is really capped in the 8th symphony. Currently I am reading Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion by Wilfrid Mellers.
Lesser known pieces that are of my liking include all you mention, especially the Partita, but also the Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus (a sort of later, much more subdued, Tallis Fantasia revisited), the Poisoned Kiss overture, the Oxford Elegy, and even the Variations for Brass Band - to mention at random a few other pieces.
As to the late (1957 I think) Variations for Brass Band: I rather dislike the orchestration Gordon Jacob made of it, but am fond of it in it's orignal, more powerful version. I often read people hold it in a low esteem - but I cannot be the only one to think otherwise?
Thanks for reminding me of this 'un! It is on an Eastman Wind Ensemble disc which (actually) I picked up for both the Hindemith Konzertmusik for winds (Opus 41) and the Husa Music for Prague 1968.
Curiously, this credits the scoring to E.W.E. director Don Hunsberger . . . wonder where it needed to vary from the Ur-text . . . ?
Of course! More coffee is needed, here in New England! ;)
The brass band I play in is going to perform his Henry the Fifth Overture, which was originally written for brass band. It is an awesome piece; I just wish we could play it well enough to do it justice.
Interesting piece! It used to be left out of all the 'official' RVW lists of compositions, and I only heard it accidentally, 25 years ago, in some (Swedish?) recording. But I still remember I couldn't find a trace about it in some of the then available books on RVW.
There must be one or two recordings by now. Michael Kennedy lists it as an 'Overture for brass band' in his Catalogue of the Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams as having received its first performance only in 1979, by the University of Miami Wind Ensemble under Frederick Fennell, and having been published only as late as 1981. One of those ''early'' performances must have been the one I heard in those days.
BTW: one of my other favorites being - the Mass. I hope you will be trying it again. And talking about personal RVW favorites: I would also add the Three Portraits from The England of Elisabeth, especially as conducted by Andre Previn, and also Flos Campi (there are many fine versions of it available).
(But then: there's very little RVW that I'm not fond of. The only pieces that come to mind are the Sea Symphony, that I like but not love, and some of the songs. (Also, I don't think that much of his film music is thát special, even if I adore the England of Elisabeth music.)
You are right. The England of Elizabeth is best heard in the Previn version. I actually saw the documentary film for which it was written (typical of its time, 1950s) when they showed in at the Barbican in London before Hickox performed the first ever performance of the 1913 version of A London Symphony for c 90 years!
Brass bands have a very strict orchestration. They only use cornets, alto horns, and flugal horns. No trumpets or french horns allowed. Additionally, there are baritones, euphonium, trombones, Eb tuba (my instrument), and BBb tuba.
A Dutch friend also plays in a "fanfare band", I didn't realize it was a separate entity but it's quite interesting actually, basically a brass band instrumentation with a large range of saxophones (my instrument!). A unique and colorful sound. He said it was primarily a Dutch thing, and indeed the composer Johan De Meij often publishes his pieces separately for that specific orchestration.'
What about the other extracts from The England of Elizabeth Muir Mathieson (if I spell his name correctly) did take from them? Have they been recorded, and are they somehow available too?
The English Folk Song Suite may be minor RVW, but it's good, clean fun.
The English Folk Song Suite may be minor RVW, but it's good, clean fun.
It might've already been mentioned before, but was is the recommended set of symphonies for this guy?
I have Thomson(Chandos) and Previn (RCA - cheap as hell). Both are pretty good. THe Chandos sound is a bit much for me - kind of too revereberent so I slightly prefer the Previn. Many like the Slatkin set but I think it is OOP. There are two Boult sets out there but I am in general not a big Boult fan, he is just not interesting as a conductor.Thanks, I just checked out the Thomson and Previn sets.
Thanks, I just checked out the Thomson and Previn sets.
Woooooooooooooowwwwwwwww!!!! :o
The Previn set not only has the 9 symphonies, but much more, including a tuba concerto, has an average of a 5-star rating, and is only $20!!!! :o
That's not something you see every day, good thing I asked. Well, that'll definetely be on my wish-list.... 0:)
Beware that Amazon don't stock the Previn set. I ordered mine and it took over 2 months for them to ship >:(ooh, yeah, that's definetely good to before buying
It might've already been mentioned before, but was is the recommended set of symphonies for this guy?
Also, Bernstein is good in the 4th.
Thomas
Who said it was minor?
It has 'Seventeen come Sunday' which is brilliant!
Bernstein's 4th didn't sit well with me, though I can't remember why. Berglund is my man for the 4th, with Handley bringing up the rear. I even like Haitink in this (and in the 9th).
Bernstein's 4th didn't sit well with me, though I can't remember why. Berglund is my man for the 4th, with Handley bringing up the rear. I even like Haitink in this (and in the 9th).
For the 6th I, again, prefer Haitink, though I am now very fond of Berglund in this too (thanks again, Jeffrey). I was disappointed with Davies after all the hype, I must say.
No argument from me about Previn being the man for the 3rd. That recording really was a revelation.
But anyway, I want to hear more about Riders to the Sea. I have only heard tantalising clips of the EMI recording and will wait patiently for its re-release.
If a three-movement suite for Military Band running only eleven minutes is not a minor work, what is? Für Elise and nothing else? ;D
"Riders to the Sea" is a hauntingly atmospheric work, more of a one act "music drama" rather than opera. The EMI Meredith Davies version is the one to have. It was coupled with "Epithalamion" Vaughan Williams's last choral work; a beautiful, haunting score. The booklet with the EMI release also contained the wonderful 1957/8 painting of Vaughan Williams by Gerald Kelly. It was perhaps my favourite disc in the EMI British Composers series.
Please excuse my astounding ignorance. I was looking for Janine Jansen videos on youtube last night (I was told she can play the violin, too! (http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/clown.gif)) and I found this version of The Lark Ascending, which is now the first and only Work by VW I know...
My question: Is this piece really representative of VW’s style?
Yes and no. RVW doesn't have a single "style". He goes back and forth between the overtly folkloristic and the more expressionist. The Lark is more folkloristic. But his Symphony No.4 for example has hardly anything in common with that, stylistically.
Yes and no. RVW doesn't have a single "style". He goes back and forth between the overtly folkloristic and the more expressionist. The Lark is more folkloristic. But his Symphony No.4 for example has hardly anything in common with that, stylistically.
Wow I just heard Handley's LPO recording for EMI and I think it might even be better than the RLPO box
It IS better. It has more atmosphere.
Wow I just heard Handley's LPO recording for EMI and I think it might even be better than the RLPO box:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JW6MK41JL._SS500_.jpg)
It only seems to be available in the UK, though.
I'm listening to Symphonies 6, 8, and the Nocturne (Whispers of Heavenly Death), lately. Thoughts on these pieces? Incidentally, listening to the Nocturne may be the first time I've really understood Whitman's poetry.Reviewers haven't been very positive about Hickox' performance of the symphonies, and that's why I didn't order for this CD, so far. But the Nocturne is a recent discovery and gets its world premiere, here. Hope to learn more about the piece.
I'm listening to Symphonies 6, 8, and the Nocturne (Whispers of Heavenly Death), lately.
Thoughts on these pieces?
Incidentally, listening to the Nocturne may be the first time I've really understood Whitman's poetry.
Hickox's performance of No.8 is particularly weak (lacking in colour and excitement), his 6th better but hardly distinguished. There are many superior versions of this, arguably Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony, like Berglund,'s Handley's, Andrew Davis', Boult's 1947th, Stokowski's or even Haitink's.
Thomas
Hickox's performance of No.8 is particularly weak (lacking in colour and excitement), his 6th better but hardly distinguished. There are many superior versions of this, arguably Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony, like Berglund,'s Handley's, Andrew Davis', Boult's 1947th, Stokowski's or even Haitink's.
Thomas
Hickox's performance of No.8 is particularly weak (lacking in colour and excitement), his 6th better but hardly distinguished. There are many superior versions of this, arguably Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony
My personal list of preferred recordings of the RVW symphonies (but to be honest, I don't know all recordings):
No. 1 no real idea, but probably Boult
No. 2 Handley (EMI), Hickox in the original version (Chandos)
No. 3 Previn (RCA), Handley (EMI)
No. 4 Bernstein (Sony), Thomson (Chandos)
No. 5 Handley (EMI), Thomson (Chandos)
No. 6 Stokowski (Cala), Thomson (Chandos - I know, I'm the only one to cherish this slow, but powerfull and to my ears highly tragic rendering)
No. 7 Haitink (EMI) ?
No. 8 Barbirolli (RCA), Slatkin (RCA)
No. 9 Thomson (Chandos), Slatkin (RCA), Stokowski (Cala)
In my list, Thomson is the overall winner, followed by Handley, Boult, Previn and Stokowski.
MusicWeb seems to have added a convenient page w/ all their RVW reviews.
Neat. http://musicweb.uk.net/Vwilliams/revidx.htm
V helpful, thank you.
I can't comment on Hickox's recordings of the 6th and 8th, but his recording of the original London Symphony is just masterful. The live performance he gave at the 2005 Proms was also superb. The LSO under Norrington recorded a really excellent London Symphony too.
. . . the Dutton release of the orchestrated Six Studies on English Folk Song (1926, orch. 1957) [8:42] - for example. Anybody heard them?
Very helpful indeed: the overview of the new releases per year shows an amazing abundancy: so many new recording, each year. Without this overview I wouldn't have learnt about the Dutton release of the orchestrated Six Studies on English Folk Song (1926, orch. 1957) [8:42] - for example. Anybody heard them?
Note: The oboe parts of these songs may, in case of necessity, be played on a violin or (by transposing the songs down a tone) on a B flat clarinet - but neither of these expedients is advisable. R.V.W
Note: The oboe parts of these songs may, in case of necessity, be played on a violin or (by transposing the songs down a tone) on a B flat clarinet - but neither of these expedients is advisable.
Fascinating, Kiddiarni . . . I played two (or three?) of these with one of the tenors in the choir back in September. I did not know (but it does not surprise me) that he actually got the idea from the composer (and if those expedients are not advisable, why does he give that advice, eh?)
Actually, we took a third route; I sight-transposed the oboe part, so that the tenor could still sing in the notated key 8)
Oddly, at a christening I was asked to sing one of these songs unaccompanied. Also as I am a baritone, it was transposed down. So not exactly authentic in practice. it was the song that starts off....Little Lamb, who made thee? That is the Infant Joy song I think.
Mike
I can't do that, sight-transposing that is.
And, interestingly enough, karlhenning I also played it with a tenor in my choir, and I actually played two pieces with him, the third one was solo. We played The Infant Joy, nr. 1., and nr. 10, which I don't remember the name of, and then the tenor sung nr. 6, The Shepherd, solo.
So I take it you play the clarinet?
NEW TONY PALMER FILM ABOUT VW NEARS COMPLETION
11th June 2007
Tony Palmer the distinguished and highly acclaimed director is currently putting the finishing touches to a film he has made about Vaughan Williams. Three hours long, it looks at Vaughan Williams’ life as a disturbed and frustrated one. The film will undoubtedly be controversial but very important in raising awareness of RVW.
The first ever full-length film biography of the great man, produced by the multi-award winning director, TONY PALMER, to be shown over several weeks in November on Channel FIVE and released on DVD in time for Christmas.
With many of those who knew and worked with him, including the GLOUCESTER CATHEDRAL CHOIR, conducted by ANDREW NETHSINGHA,
• archive performances by BOULT and BARBIROLLI,
• newly discovered interviews with VAUGHAN WILLIAMS himself,
• specially recorded extracts from The Symphonies, Job, The Lark Ascending and of course The Tallis Fantasia
• And with unexpected contributions from HARRISON BIRTWISTLE, JOHN ADAMS
MARK ANTHONY TURNAGE, MICHAEL TIPPETT & NEIL TENNANT of The Pet Shop Boys.
A glorious 3 hour celebration, but with a helluva sting in the tail.
Reprinted below with Tony Palmer’s permision, is the article as published in the OUP magazine.
VAUGHAN WILLIAMS
for O.U.P. magazine
'O thou transcendent…..'
Vaughan Williams holds an extraordinary fascination for a surprising number of fellow musicians. Known for his openness with advice to younger colleagues, he was often besieged by requests along the lines of "I'm thinking of becoming a composer. Can you give me a few hints?" Thus the 80 year-old grand old man of British music received the 16 year-old whippersnapper, Harrison Birtwistle. The great American composer John Adams was taken by his parents as a 9 year-old to his first orchestral concert in Boston, U.S.A. The first piece on the menu was Vaughan Williams. Adams, previously (he believed) destined to be an engineer, told his parents he now wanted to be a composer - "like that!" Neil Tennant, famous as part of The Pet Shop Boys, had a similar Damascus moment as a schoolboy in Newcastle. Mark Anthony Turnage, knocked sideways by his encounter with "the darkness, even hopelessness", of Vaughan Williams’ vision of mankind….the list of such musicians included in this 3-hour film is considerable.
Next year will be the 50th anniversary of his death. Having made films about Britten and Walton, I knew I had to face up to the man whose shadow falls across the whole of 20th century English music, and also as to why he was not immediately thought of in the same breath as, say, Elgar. It seems to me now, as I put the finishing touches to my film, that his importance exceeds the other three. Two stories illustrate this.
In 1936, Vaughan Williams went to Norwich for the première of his Five Tudor Portraits. When he arrived at the rehearsal, the leader of the orchestra asked him to ‘deal with’ the composer of the other work on the programme who was being an hysterical pest, and in any case they hated the piece. VW asked who it was, and then apparently told the leader: "Sir, you are in the presence of greatness. If you do not perform his work, then you cannot perform mine". The other work was Our Hunting Fathers; the composer the 22 year-old Benjamin Britten. Michael Tippett tells the film, in an interview recorded some years ago, that although as a student he had despised everything VW stood for with "all that folk waffle", after VW died Tippett realised he had made the most appalling misjudgement because it was VW "rather than any of his contemporaries" who had "made us free".
"Folk waffle"? I agree with Tippett - a profound misjudgement. It doesn’t even begin to describe some the bleakest, most desperate and yearning English music written in the last 100 years. This is the musician who leapt back across the centuries to Tallis, Byrd, Dowland and Purcell long before it became fashionable to do so. This is the scholar who read Walt Whitman, long before anyone had ever heard of him on this side of the Atlantic. This is the visionary who single-handedly rescued the English Hymnal, who prodded the Churchill government during the Second World War to establish what became eventually the Arts Council and The Third Programme on the BBC.
But that’s not the main thrust of my film, which is about the man himself. First, his family – related, either directly or by marriage to Darwin, to Wedgewood, to Keynes, to Virginia Woolf, centre stage among the intellectual aristocracy at the beginning of the 20th century. Then married, and devotedly so, for over 50 years to a woman who was for much of that time a cripple – can you imagine what that did to his psyche, his sexuality? And he was a devastatingly good looking young man, not the crumpled, cuddly figure that has become (until now, I hope) his lasting image. A man who volunteered, aged 41, to serve in the infantry in the First World War, but eventually served in the Ambulance Corps (and don’t forget his very sheltered background – Charterhouse, Cambridge, and a man who never needed to earn his living), picking up bits of bodies blown to smithereens in the Battle of Vimy Ridge. And this had no effect on him and his music? Of course it did.
In the end, of course, it’s the music which speaks to us. Gergiev’s Mariinsky Orchestra provides much of it in specially recorded extracts – all the Symphonies, Job, Tallis, The Lark, The National Youth Orchestra, which also celebrates 60 years in 2008, underlining VW’s commitment to the young – he did, after all, helped to put the National Youth Orchestra on its feet; The English Chamber Orchestra, the BBC Chorus, Simon Keenleyside, Joan Rodgers, the amazing Catalan Viola da Gamba player Jordi Savall, the great folk singer Martin Carthy and his daughter Liza who will perform the folk songs that VW heard (and as he probably heard them) on his walking tours with Gustav Holst in 1903/4, and not least Gloucester Cathedral Choir with the hymns and The Mass. Dorking & The Leith Hill Music Festival, which VW conducted for over 50 years, is well represented. And all this quite apart from archive performances with Sir Colin Davis, Sir Adrian Boult and Barbirolli. Finally, there are the witnesses who knew and worked with him – Roy Douglas (now over 100), Michael Kennedy, David Willcocks, Lady Barbirolli, Lord Armstrong, Kiffer Finzi, Bill Llewellyn, Alun Hoddinott, Jill Balcon who remembers with tears her father’s commissioning of the music for the film Scott of the Antarctic, Jerrold Northrop Moore, Hervey Fisher recalling his great Aunt Adeline, VW’s first (and much overlooked first wife), Hugh Cobbe, the archivist of his letters……and of course Ursula Vaughan Williams herself in an extended interview she gave in 1990 recently discovered. Best of all, VW himself talking in hitherto forgotten interviews.
But my intention is not hagiography. It is simply this: to explode for ever I hope the image of a cuddly old Uncle, endlessly recycling English folk songs, and to awaken the audience to a central figure in our musical heritage who did more for us all than Greensleeves and Lark Ascending, even if it is No.1 in the Classic FM 'Hall of Fame'; who not only deserves his place among the greatest of British composers, but who deserves our respect and admiration as a man of phenomenal nobility and courage. Courage musically; we forget that in its time his music was considered progressive and ‘modern’ (he had after all studied with Ravel), and performed at the Salzburg Festival (the first English composer to be so honoured) and the Prague Contemporary Music Festival. His music was even banned by the Nazis. The 15 year-old Margot Fonteyn even danced in the stage première of Job. And courage as a man. Never forget the man from a privileged background picking up bits of dead bodies, a shattered head, an arm, a finger, an eye, while married for most of his adult life to a cripple in a wheelchair. In my view, anyone who tells you that his music is just notes on a page or 'visions of Corot' has missed the point – by a million miles.
At the end of my interview with Roy Douglas, he jabbed his finger at me and said: "young man. Tell me, what is his music about?" I waffled, inevitably – "oh, I said, belief in humanity, visionary, optimism……" "Oh yes?" said Roy. "End of the 6th Symphony? 4th Symphony? 9th Symphony? even the Norfolk Rhapsody? A very bleak vision. Just think of the times he lived through. Think again, young man” he said. I have, and this film is the result. It does not make comfortable viewing.
©Tony Palmer
The film will be shown over several weeks on Channel FIVE in November 2007.
The première will be at the Barbican Cinema in the same month. The DVD of the full 3 hour film will available in time for Christmas.
Tomny Palmer's web site http://www.tonypalmer.org/
Indeed so. At least, it's clear now what I will be asking as a Christmas present.
My discovery of the day is Vaughan Williams' Introduction and Fugue for Two Pianofortes that he composed in 1946. I'm not sure how many other fugues were previously written specifically for double piano, but the effect is striking.
Tony, the final movement of the Stravinsky Concerto per due pianoforti is a Preludio e Fuga
Never heard of this. Where did you find it?
Have been recently listening to Dona Nobis Pacem (Bryden Thomson and Boult recordings).I think that it is one of VW's finest works. Although it is episodic, some sections being composed 25 years apart, it does add up to a great symphonic whole and I believe that this doomed but heartfelt plea for peace, from the 1930s,is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.Agreed. I'm not a big RVW fan but I've liked this piece for a long time. I never find the 25-year gap between sections a problem, there's still a unity of message in the work's diversity of style.
Agreed. I'm not a big RVW fan but I've liked this piece for a long time. I never find the 25-year gap between sections a problem, there's still a unity of message in the work's diversity of style.
I have the Willcocks version of Sancta Civitas but I also have a version conducted by Richard Hickox, coupled with Dona Nobis Pacem, issued in 1993 in the EMI British Composers series.
Hickox seems to have had rather a mixed press from contributors to this thread as far as his recordings of the symphonies are concerned.
I would agree that not all of his recent recordings have fully convinced me. Haitink, Handley in the 5th, Andrew Davis in the 6th, Boult, Thomson have sometimes appeared to go deeper into different individual pieces. We ought however, I think, give all due praise to Hickox for the fantastic work he has done and is continuing to do for British music-including VW. Although he is spending a lot of time now at the Australian Opera I hope that he will continue to record as much British music as possible. It is a fairly sad reflection that only two professional symphony orchestras in Britain(the Halle and Ulster orchestras) currently employ British musical directors!
1. What orchestral works (I generally like works for big orchestras) would you recommend to start with?
2. I've listened to sym. #7 and the London Symphony once a bit. Both reminded me of Rautavaaras Cantus Arcticus. Is Rautavaara a Williams clone? Or vice versa? ;)
3. How do I spell "vaughan" and is this a second surname?
I'm currently giving the Tallis Fantasia a try, it's by Rafael Fruhbeck de Burgos/LSO, just have downloaded it from emusic. In the (german) wikipedia article I read this piece is one of his most popular ones.
It's certainly his most well-known work (even Karajan performed it, I think I recall M mentioning)
Furtwängler, Ormandy and Toscanini, too.
Can you name some attributes/overall mood of any single symphony? Example: after a quick (incomplete) listen to the No. 7 (antarctica) I think the Antarctica is mysterious. It's easier to have a pretty easy description at first and finding all gems, exceptions and details later...Incidentally, in case you look up a recording it's Sinfonia Antartica. It was adapted from his music for the Scott of the Antarctic film.
Hi people,
I'm a bloody RVW newbie.
1. What orchestral works (I generally like works for big orchestras) would you recommend to start with?
My listening preferences are nordish composers (Sibelius, Pettersson), Bruckner and Mahler. No need to mention Beethoven.
2. I've listened to sym. #7 and the London Symphony once a bit. Both reminded me of Rautavaaras Cantus Arcticus. Is Rautavaara a Williams clone? Or vice versa? ;)
3. How do I spell "vaughan" and is this a second surname?
Furtwängler, Ormandy and Toscanini did, too.
Can you name some attributes/overall mood of any single symphony? Example: after a quick (incomplete) listen to the No. 7 (antarctica) I think the Antarctica is mysterious. It's easier to have a pretty easy description at first and finding all gems, exceptions and details later...
The Furtwängler must be fascinating - I will look out for it.
He performed the work several times, but, AFAIK, never recorded it.
Thomas
In the end, of course, it’s the music which speaks to us. Gergiev’s Mariinsky Orchestra provides much of it in specially recorded extracts – all the Symphonies, Job, Tallis, The Lark
I'm just waiting for the postal strike to end so I can receive my copy of this
I can't believe nobody picked up on that! ;D The Mariinsky doing RVW; that is going to be interesting! Something worth turning my telly on for I think.
And whilst i'm here: all the listening to the 8th symphony the last few months must have opened up a door in my head and given me access to...ta dah...Hindemith. I've listened to the Mathis der Maler Symphony and the Symphonic Metamorphoses (incidentally, I often I think I could marry Herbert Blomstedt for his services) almost daily for the last two weeks. Bleedin' fantastic music. I'm just waiting for the postal strike to end so I can receive my copy of this:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41o0p0KFl0L._AA240_.jpg)
It's certainly his most well-known work (even Karajan performed it, I think I recall M mentioning), and very interesting, too.
During the first 35 years of [Vaughan Williams's] life the leading symphonists in British music were Stanford and Parry, both of whom were his teachers, but it would be a bold critic who could detect their influence on their pupil when it comes to orchestral music. We can, however, detect a general influence of Elgar on the composer of A Sea Symphony (1903-09) and A London Symphony (1910-13), particularly from The Dream of Gerontius (1900) rather than from the two symphonies of 1908 and 1911.
I don't know RVW's Mass, and would welcome comments and recording recommendations.
I think it would be a stretch to consider it a major work, save perhaps within Vaughan Williams's Liturgical music bucket (it is certainly more substantial than the many hymns and anthems with which he has graced the Anglican tradition). In a way characteristic of practically everything else he wrote for use in church, all the choristers I know who have sung it, report loving it.
Which could be another reason I am not rushing for a recording; I wonder if it may be a piece to which I respond better as a participant than as a passive listener.
I understand that Tony Palmer's film about RVW "O Thou Transcendent" will be screened on Channel 5(British TV) on New Year's Day at 12 noon, that it will have received its screen premiere at the Barbican in London on 5th December and that the DVD is now out on Isolde Films(yesterday's Independent newspaper).
Amazon is not yet advertising the DVD. Anyone got any other news?
I understand that Tony Palmer's film about RVW "O Thou Transcendent" will be screened on Channel 5(British TV) on New Year's Day at 12 noon, that it will have received its screen premiere at the Barbican in London on 5th December and that the DVD is now out on Isolde Films(yesterday's Independent newspaper).
Amazon is not yet advertising the DVD. Anyone got any other news?
I understand that Tony Palmer's film about RVW "O Thou Transcendent" will be screened on Channel 5(British TV) on New Year's Day at 12 noon, that it will have received its screen premiere at the Barbican in London on 5th December and that the DVD is now out on Isolde Films(yesterday's Independent newspaper).
Amazon is not yet advertising the DVD. Anyone got any other news?
Thank you very much for this review Jeffrey. I already had decided to buy this DVD, now even more so. Unfortunately it still is not for sale at Amazon yet but I saw that it is possible to buy directly through Palmer's website. Anyone familiar with that option?
Reading the publicity blurb for the RVW film I notice that it says that extracts from the symphonies are played by "Gergiev's Mariinsky Orchestra". It doesn't say that the orchestra is actually conducted by Gergiev himself.
However, vandermolen did say that the orchestra was from the Hungarian State Radio conducted by Vaszary.
SO...no Mariinsky?? I would have loved to hear a good Russian orchestra playing VW!!
Answer please!!
Dundonnell, Thom, Karl, I'm sure you will enjoy the documentary. I found an excellent summary below:
http://arts.independent.co.uk/music/features/article3202040.ece
I gather that the BBC will show their own documentary sometime in 2008; the 50th anniversary of the composer's death.
Very nice. Look forward to your thoughts on this recording. I've mixed feelings about composers conducting their own works and was considering his fourth. It was a symphony I didn't like. I remember thinking it superficial but that could have been the performance - just guessing, it was probably Boult. I'm about ready to give it another go - not sure if VW's own version is the best start but I'm very tempted with this 5th. So, hopefully you'll tell more after Christmas!
I first heard the Fifth back when my ears were hungry after other things, where I first listened to the Fourth when I was already attuned to Vaughan Williams's vibrational fields, as it were. — Just to explain that it isn't an 'even comparison' — as it was, maybe it was the fourth or fifth hearing that I enjoyed the Fifth on its own terms, where I liked the Fourth first I heard it.I can pretty much copy that.
The RVW symphony that I wish got a better press is the Third, which seems often written off as "cowpat music". I took quite a while to understand it, but now find it a deeply disturbing work with some extremely angry emotions hidden behind the pastoral facade.
For those in the UK don't forget about the very interesting two and a half hour TV documentary about the composer, which is being shown on New Year's Day.
Does anyone know anything about the unfinished cello concerto that he composed in his last few months of his life. I don;t think anyone has produced a completion or if a completion is even possible. I don't know who it was composed for either. I'm not talking about the Fantastia on Sussex Folk tunes composed for Casals in the early 30s - (which he planned to expand into a full cocnerto but didn't. One of his least interesting works I think).
I have no problems with the Sinfonia antartica.
Difficult to pick a favourite VW symphony! The Pastoral, 4th, 5th, 6th and 9th are all masterpieces in their different ways and I love them all.
However, I have tremendous affection also for the London Symphony which, in the context of its time of composition, seems to me to be a fantastic achievement. It is so immensely redolent of the passing of an age-the time of Victorian/Edwardian self-confidence and security. The last movement I find almost unbearably moving.
I also have a lot of time for the less well-regarded(by some) Sinfonia Antarctica(No.7). Polar exploration-and particularly the final Scott Expedition to the South Pole-has always interested me. The tragic futility of that journey barely redeemed by the heroism of the dying participants is captured with such eerie pognancy in the symphony that it has always moved me to tears. It may not-strictly speaking-be a symphony at all but who really cares!
(Incidentally, VW as conductor has brought on an idea for another thread!)
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste. The only further point we might make here is that the final movement does seem to go on rather too long. Perhaps if the thematic material were more memorable - more beautiful - we would not so much mind the length.
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste. The only further point we might make here is that the final movement does seem to go on rather too long. Perhaps if the thematic material were more memorable - more beautiful - we would not so much mind the length.
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste. The only further point we might make here is that the final movement does seem to go on rather too long. Perhaps if the thematic material were more memorable - more beautiful - we would not so much mind the length.I think VW knew what he was up to and chose the saxophone probably to give the line a malign sneering tone. No matter what you think, he heard this work performed suffuciently to reach the decision in spite of several revisions made to the movement. He was notorious for making adjustments during rehearsal and would have allocated the part elsewhere if he wanted a different result. As for the last movement, problems occur more in interpretation and in at least one spot I think he did instruct rather poorly in the score. But again, the fact is that he rehearsed and heard the work often in his lifetime, was friends with people who conducted it, so presumably we have to recognise that, as composer, it was what he wanted.
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste. The only further point we might make here is that the final movement does seem to go on rather too long. Perhaps if the thematic material were more memorable - more beautiful - we would not so much mind the length.
A juvenile criticism. By the way, it's Dr. VAUGHAN Williams. You don't even know that, how would you understand the music?
so
uh...
you want me to post every page I can find that says Dr. Vaughan Williams?
Or do I have to add more boldprint on words of emphasis so you can understand that?
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste.
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste. The only further point we might make here is that the final movement does seem to go on rather too long. Perhaps if the thematic material were more memorable - more beautiful - we would not so much mind the length.you're hilarious! :D
We have no objections to Thai prostitutes because they emit good vibrational fields.my new signature......
We can no doubt tell the group all kinds of new things about it!
yourself.ourselves.
We can no doubt tell the group all kinds of new things about it!
Juvenile? That must be a recommendation rather than anything else must it not. And perhaps the member might care just to cast an eye upon the appended pages, wherein he will note the appearance of the phrase "Dr. Williams" not once, but two times! Evidently the may we say overconfident Member has not previously encountered the expression . . .(http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w164/sydgrew/DoctorW.jpg)
As far as understanding the music is concerned, we who have so many hours of study behind us do despite what the Member says manage to accomplish that quite well too thank you. We can no doubt tell the group all kinds of new things about it!
. . . but clearly one more amusing than annoying. ;)
I bought myself the DVD Jeffrey, since Channel 5 is not on my cable. I was not dissapointed, it is a remarkable documentary. Amazing (and admirable) that the TV people are willing to broadcast this film of more than 2 hours length for - probably - a limited audience.
Thom
Sorry to interrupt the cheery banter but did anyone see the TV documentary on New Year's Day? (UK)
I put a video into my machine and began taping at 9.00am only to find that the tape I had inserted was in fact a pre-recorded film.
Fortunately for the film it was not erased but the VW programme was of course not taped either!
(Blames New Year's celebrations the night before!)
I did not watch the film since I was trying to catch up on lost sleep. Calamity all round!!
Never mind...will just have to buy the DVD now.
I have a bad habit of re-listening to performances/interpretations
I'm starting my Vaughan Williams journey this week beginning with the symphonies. I'm already familiar with symphonies 1, 2, & 5; the Lark Ascending, Thomas Tallis, Job, and a few other pieces.
Following the advice of a few members from this thread I bought complete symphonies by Boult (EMI & Decca), Haitink, Previn, and Handley. I'm probably in the minority, but I have to say that "A Sea Symphony" is a great beginning to VW's cycle! I'm listening to the Haitink and it's amazing (not that I don't like the Boult from both sets). The more I listen to this symphony, the more I appreciate and love it (and I still haven't heard the Previn and Handley). Any other suggestions on #1? I've read good things about Spano.
I have a bad habit of re-listening to performances/interpretations so this venture might take awhile...thanks again for the many suggestions.
Paul
I like the Handley Sea Symphony and the Naxos recording.
I think the saxophones in the 6th (and the 9th) are wonderful. They also have a leading role in Job. Perhaps RVW intended the profane associations produced in the listeners mind. He must have had his reasons. Anyway, they sound great.
I don't have any profane associations with the saxophone. I think it's a wonderful instrument and am charmed that RVW made such effective use of it.
I don't have any profane associations with the saxophone. I think it's a wonderful instrument and am charmed that RVW made such effective use of it.
The 6th , as well as the 4th are powerful testimonies of Vaughan Williams ability to tap into modern modalities of disonnance. I happen to love all the syms, even the 1st , which some over at amazon chat board has dubbed a 'dud', 'un-listenable"...but i wonder if the poem 's content (mentions God)has something underlying about these strong resistances... ::). The finale of the 1st does lose some steam, but the work is engaging and the Walt Whitman poem is very imaginative. i love the poem.
You guys ought to consider hearing VW's concerto for...TUBA!
i caught it on the radio one day and was very impressed, VW's has the Tuba playing his usual lovely passages. There's 2 or 3 recordings, can't recall the excellent one i heard.
I need to order that concerto myself, and soon.
The finest complete set IMHO is the Thomson/London. I've heard various others, the Thomson is my definitive favorite. The London SO played their hearts out for Thomson. when a orch really likes the conductor, this atmosphere of comradiere shows up in the recording. Like what the Columbia did for Bruno Walter.
Also love Barbirolli's 5th/Philharmonia.
Did once sort of, , but not now do i like the Lark Ascending. NPR plays it all the time
I happen to love all the syms . . . .
You guys ought to consider hearing VW's concerto for...TUBA!
Did once sort of, , but not now do i like the Lark Ascending. NPR plays it all the time.
Splendid, Paul!
I have; it's agreeable listening, pretty 'workaday Vaughan Williams' IMO. But one understands why tuba players are grateful for some good lit, and this is a good concerto.
I well understand the phenomenon, Paul! Don't throw the good music baby out with the numbskulled programming bathwater! ;)
I think people having problems with symphony no.1 is due to:
1. Being unwilling to accept that it is not exactly the same as RVW's mature symphony style (a little Elgar-ish)
2. It being much longer than the other syms, so requires more patience and attention
3. It being very chorally balanced "that's not a real symphony! I've heard some very boring oratorios this long, I'm not gonna give this a chance", etc
It's certainly not due to the objective qualities of the work - overall it's a very good setting, and very transparent despite its size. It's one of my least favourite of his cycle, but I still think it's very good.
I'm glad that you like RVW btw, Paul :)
Paulb,
Which version of No 6 do you like best?
The Sixth, IMHO is VW's greatest symphony as it combines the violence of No 4 with the spirituality of No 5, the result is both compelling and disquieting. Hickox is generally v good but this is his weakest performance I think. Boult's Decca is the best but v good versions from Haitink, Thomson and Davis.
I didn't consider checking Operashare for any RVW recordings, but it threw up quite a few (mostly songs/expired links). As not everybody uses it, I've rehosted the Symphony No.6 by Colin Davis/Sinfonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, as I find the performance noteworthy, and it may interest somebody...
Ouch! :D An interesting reaction, none the less...
I wish I thought of this earlier so I could ask as an addendum to a previous post: does anyone know why the Norfolk Rhapsody no.2 wasn't recorded until 2003, by Chandos? I checked their website but it doesn't seem to have any notes to explain why. Unfinished, or just plain worse?
According to Michael Kennedy in the liner notes of a CD I have, RVW allowed only the first of the 3 Norfolk Rhapsodies to be published. The 2nd was last performed in 1914 according to Chandos (again MK provides the notes), and 2 pages of the score are missing. The Chandos recording is an edited and partially recomposed version.
Here (http://www.theclassicalshop.net/pdf/CHAN%2010001.pdf) are the Chandos notes, from the website (the left pane of the CD page offers downloads of the cover and notes).
If you like the Tallis Fantasia, you have to listen to the Elegy on the CD below. The Symphony is magnificent too, a powerful, craggy monolithic masterpiece (I don't use this word lightly) which eschews all sentimentality, with echoes of Havergal Brian (a friend of Truscott's), Nielsen and Bruckner.
Slightly OT: the subject of RVW's use of the saxophone was raised earlier in the thread. I just listened to Eric Coates' Saxo-Rhapsody (Groves, Brymer, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic), a wonderful piece. Anyone know this?
Just listened to the Serenade to Music in it's orchestral setting. It just doesn't get any better than that!
Sure it does, with the voices as in the usual setting. :)
Without the voices it's like a trifle without the sherry, tasty but just not as intoxicating as it can be. 0:)
Silent Noon.........yes an especially beautiful song. Whose recording do you have?
Mike
I also have sung the piece. I am mostly allergic to Bostridge. Terfel speeds through it and Janet Baker, who is recorded from a concert had a catch in her throat during it.Oooh! I'll check that out then!
Another wonderful WV song is The Infinite Shining Heavens. Terfel gives that one the best performance I have ever heard of the song.
Nacht und Traume is a stunner.
Mike
Just listened to the Serenade to Music in it's orchestral setting. It just doesn't get any better than that!
Which recording is it? I got the 16-soloist version with Boult on a bargain EMI disc at Best Buy, and it was a pile of schlock (it bears noting that nearly everything else on the disc was no better).
Oooh! I'll check that out then!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413C6N6XHML._AA240_.jpg)
I recommend this disc. Included upon it is RVWs song cycle Songs of Travel. The disc as a whole is about the best collection of English songs that I know of. Terfel is full of insight and subtlety. It is a glorious voice and he really communicates. That song, The Infinite Shining Heavens was a revelation, I knew it well, he sings it with utter freshness.
Mike
Get a life.
Josh, Luxon was an OK singer, but not one to imprint words onto your brain.
Still going through VW's symphonies one by one (started in early January). I have reached the 4th and have been completely blown away by Bryden Thomson's interpretation (this is becoming my favorite set). I went ahead and bought the Thomson after reading some members favorable comments. I just ordered the 4th & 5th conducted by VW and Barbirolli on Dutton. I still haven't found the Bernstein 4th or the Berglund 6th, but I probably have to look more diligently. On to more listening...
The only weak spots in the Thomson cycle are a limp 6th and a matter-of-fact 8th. The rest is very good to excellent, with the "London", 4th and 5th outstanding.
The only weak spots in the Thomson cycle are a limp 6th and a matter-of-fact 8th. The rest is very good to excellent, with the "London", 4th and 5th oustanding. Thomson's cycle is still much underrated (...)
Thomas
I just experienced Vaughan William's string quartets (Music Group of London - EMI) for the first time and thoroughly enjoyed them both. On the initial hearing, I seem to prefer No. 1 but I'll be giving them another listen this evening. I've read that Vaughan Williams's chamber output is underrated. In my mind, these two works are good examples.
By No. 1 do you mean the Phantasy Quintet? I think the 2nd quartet takes some getting used to, but I'm learning to love it.
I've listened through my new Previn set a few times. I still wouldn't rank VW at the top, but I've found that familiarity does wonderful things for these works.
Any favourites?It's still 2, 3 and 7 at the moment, but the Handley disc might change that....
I've ordered a disc of Handley in 4 and 6 to supplement the Previn,
I agree with vandermolen with Previn however the toccata of the 8th by Hickox is better than Previn.
OK will listen to it as I have it with Hickox's poor Symphony 6
It is indeed very poor.
I just heard the 4th symphony (Royal Liverpool Philharm. Orch, Handley Vernon). I liked it. I also liked the first symphony. Looks like VW's symphonies are worth exploring.
They certainly are! If only to see what British composers after Elgar did with the Symphony... ;)
I have you figured out. You dig British composers.
How do you like Purcell?
Has anybody ever heard it - because I certainly don't remember ever having done so! It is not - and never has been - recorded(as far as I know). I wonder why not? Don't suppose it is an undiscovered masterpiece but......!
You will be our reviewer!
I never heard of any modern performance, let alone a recording. According to Michael Kennedy, A catalogue of the works of RVW, it is based on traditional folk songs and was premiered in the Royal Albert Hall in London, 15 June 1950, by Adrian Boult with the LSO and 'massed choirs'.
Roy Douglas tells in his book about his cooperation with Vaughan Williams, and how he arranged a suite from it for small orchestra, and how RVW insisted on his (Douglas') copy rights, in order to allow him a little income. But I'm not aware of any performance of this piece either - listed as lasting 13,5 minutes by Kennedy - nor of any recording. Does anybody here?
I shall happily review the performance for you if you will pay my air fare from Scotland to Texas!! ;D :)
So, what's the verdict here on Haitink's Vaughan Williams symphony cycle?
Lots of VW at the Proms in London this year.
So, what's the verdict here on Haitink's Vaughan Williams symphony cycle?
I'm listening to the single disc release of Symphony 6 (my favourite), I think that it is the best modern version (much better than the Hickox which was apparently chosen as the BBC Radio 3 "Building a Library" No 1 choice a few weeks back.) It is a great CD with the orchestral "On Wenlock Edge" and a fine performance of "In the Fen Country". What is your favourite VW symphony cycle?
Lots of VW at the Proms in London this year.
I have Haitink in the Sea Symphony and the Sinfonia Antartica and esteem both performances, particularly the latter which, in my opinion, elevates the work into the masterpiece I really believe that it is.. Haitink is a conductor for whom I have a very high regard-obviously particularly in Bruckner! I know that there has been criticism that his VW is not idiomatic but Haitink's approach is surely at least valid and deeply thought. It always seemed to me to be tremendous that a great European conductor, steeped in the central European traditions of Brahms, Bruckner and Mahler, should invest his profound knowledge and experience in a composer who has not exactly been 'taken up' by many other non-British or non-American conductors!
Hickox doesn't exactly seem to have many admnirers on this site in VW! (Apart, that is, from his CD of the original version of the London Symphony).
I am always a little puzzled by this. I freely admit that I make my CD purchases on the basis of reading as many reviews as possible by critics for whom I have respect. Hickox's cycle has-so far-generally had very positive reviews. Where do people think he has gone wrong?
I can't answer your second question, Jeffrey. I don't have a favourite cycle. I mix and match...thus:
Sea Symphony-Haitink
London Symphony-Hickox(original), Previn(revised)
Pastoral-Previn and Hickox
No.4-Previn and Hickox
No.5-Handley and Hickox
No.6-Andrew Davis, Handley, Thomson and Hickox
No.7-Haitink
No.8-Thomson and Hickox
No.9-Handley and Thomson
Have I got it reasonably ok or should I add to that lot?
Hickox's 3rd is a mess (artificial emphases in all the wrong places), his 4th bland, the 2nd rather stolid (its only real merit being the only recording of the original, but weaker, version of the London Symphony), the 6th dull indeed!
The least remarkable RVW cycle outside of Davis's and Slatkin's.
I liked Hickox's No 5 + the interesting fill-ups (Pilgrim's Pavement etc).
Which Cycles do you like? I like Davis No 6 and Slatkin No 9.
Ditto. The only fine reading in his cycle. I forgot: Hickox' Sea Symphony is rowdy, his 8th undernourished and grey-sounding. ;D
Again, ditto. But, again, these are the only good performances in their respective cycles.
Handley is the most consistently pleasing, followed by Thomson.
Yes, Thomson is very underrated. Agree that Handley is very consistent but not my first choice in any symphony...well, maybe No 9 for those harps at the end :)
I haven't heard 5 done better than by Handley, but then I haven't heard quite a few of those mentioned. Let me rephrase - I can't imagine it being done better than by Handley ...
BBC Music Magazine is featuring Vaughan Williams next month (not the current issue). The cover CD will be Symphony No 5 with Andrew Davis conducting. On BBC 4 (UK TV) this Friday (23rd May) there is a documentary "The loves of Vaughan Williams", apparently about his relationship with his two wives, Adeline and Ursula.
BBC Music Magazine is featuring Vaughan Williams next month (not the current issue). The cover CD will be Symphony No 5 with Andrew Davis conducting.
If that's the same performance as in his cycle, then forget it. It was very weak.
BBC Music Magazine is featuring Vaughan Williams next month (not the current issue). The cover CD will be Symphony No 5 with Andrew Davis conducting. On BBC 4 (UK TV) this Friday (23rd May) there is a documentary "The loves of Vaughan Williams", apparently about his relationship with his two wives, Adeline and Ursula.
Does BBC 4 offer the option of internet replay? Unfortunately my cable only provides BBS 1 and 2.
Th.
Thank you! I hope this documentary will make it to the playlist. Didn't know about the iPlayer. Great!
Th.
A pity this only works for UK residents. :'(
Yes, but serves you right for suggesting that Wellesz's "English Symphony" is (I quote) "a critique". Actually it is a loyal tribute to the realm of Her Majesty ;)
A pity this only works for UK residents. :'(
Because we pay for it through our TV licences and quite expensive it is too. Almost the cost of a gallon of petrol.
Yes, but serves you right for suggesting that Wellesz's "English Symphony" is (I quote) "a critique". Actually it is a loyal tribute to the realm of Her Majesty ;)
Because we pay for it through our TV licences and quite expensive it is too. Almost the cost of a gallon of petrol ;DWe also do, but the stations are available everywhere. But hey. I heard germany and the netherlands are the only idiots left in europe, who don't take tolls for their highways. Sometimes I almost only see eastern Europe trucks and cars on our A2 highway, travelling towards the west. We could become millionaires...
This is very unfortunate :'(
Not sure if you mean the non-availability of the BBC iPlayer to non-UK residents or my comments to Jezetha. If it is the latter, please know that I was only joking (as Johan knows). I may just be being (characteristically) hyper-sensitive, but I just wanted to clarify this in case it is what you were thinking :)
Thom lives in the Netherlands, too. He was simply crying shoulder to shoulder with me. ;D
Pleased to hear it! Well, actually I mean pleased to hear that I did not upset anyone. As a Chelsea supporter I'm having a bad evening :'(
Didn't watch it. But I conclude that Manchester United won, then... My condolences, Jeffrey.
(Let's hope the Chelsea fans don't storm Lenin's Tomb.)
Thanks Johan,
I think that the guards at Lenin's tomb (where I was a few weeks ago) will be able to fend off the Chelsea fans. They will be heading for the bars anyway to drown their sorrows. I am consoling myself with Miaskovsky's 17th Symphony :'(
Thanks Johan,
I think that the guards at Lenin's tomb (where I was a few weeks ago) will be able to fend off the Chelsea fans. They will be heading for the bars anyway to drown their sorrows. I am consoling myself with Miaskovsky's 17th Symphony :'(
We both sincerely apologize for Van der Sar's gross misconduct. :'(
As for musical consolement fitting with this thread: I remember to have seen some Russian performance of the Sea Symphony, but I don't have it and cannot find the details. Who does?
Russian VW, how exciting!
During the Second World War, VW assumed the oracular role to English audiences that Shostakovich did to Russians. Crowds surged to his fifth symphony in the hope of glimpsing victory and a better world beyond. In peacetime, he turned bleak once more. Famous as he was, he refused all official titles and conducted amateur choirs in Dorking with scruffy gusto and unfailing courtesy, always remembering to thank the worst of his singers for their enthusiasm. He strikes me the kind of man whose greatest effort went into concealing his greatness. At 85, preparing for the next day’s recording of his ninth symphony, he died in his sleep on September 26, 1958.
That so vital a composer could fade from the centre of our attention is down to the fickleness of the classical music establishment. No sooner was he dead than BBC mandarins wrote him off as English and reactionary, when he was the least insular of composers and socially among the most progressive. It did not help that his few posthumous champions came from the political right, and that the piece by which he is best known is the rosy-toned arcadian setting of Henry VIII’s Greensleeves.
There may be one further reason for his retreat. VW was always best served by the less flamboyant conductors. Adrian Boult and John Barbirolli were his choice interpreters. The colourful Thomas Beecham actively disliked him.
That dichotomy persists. The Phiharmonia cycle is conducted by Richard Hickox, the Proms by Andrew Davis, Leonard Slatkin, Mark Elder. The flashier baton of Simon Rattle is conspicuous in its present VW abstinence.
Not that it matters much, since the wind is now blowing his way. The Lark Ascending has just come top of a poll of Classic FM listeners and when television viewers hear the Tallis Fantasia as the long boats flicker down the River Thames, some think ‘there will always be an England’ while others rush to their blogs to proclaim, ‘that is a sound that I want to hear for the rest of my days.’ Uncle Ralph is home. Tea, anyone?
Has this been linked before: Norman Lebrecht has written a column on the Vaughan Williams anniversary:
http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/080430-NL-Vaughan.html
Simon Rattle sure is a prick ...
Don't know about his Bruckner or Honegger(!) either!
Has this been linked before: Norman Lebrecht has written a column on the Vaughan Williams anniversary:
http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/080430-NL-Vaughan.html
Simon Rattle sure is a prick ...
Russian VW, how exciting!
Yes, it's still to be seen at Amazon.com, which offers the following details:
.>> R. Vaughan Wiliams SYMPHONY No.1 ("A Sea Symphony", 1910) .... Total time - 65.30. T. Smoryakova, soprano B. Vasiliev, baritone The Leningrad Musical Society Conductors" Chour Artistic director A. Verechagin The Rimsky-Korsakov Musical School Chour Artistic director B. Abalian The USSR Ministry Of Culture Symphony Orchestra Conductor Gennadi Rozdestvensky. Recorded live at the Grand Hall of Leningrad Philharmony April 30, 1988. <<
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41A502HXPDL._SS500_.jpg)
I also own the BBC recording with Rozhdestvensky conducting the BBC SO in the Fifth. But with a British orchestra, it doesn't count as `Russian VW', I would say.
Don't know about his Bruckner or Honegger(!) either!
Has this been linked before: Norman Lebrecht has written a column on the Vaughan Williams anniversary:
http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/080430-NL-Vaughan.html
Simon Rattle sure is a prick ...
As a Chelsea supporter I'm having a bad evening :'(
He strikes me the kind of man whose greatest effort went into concealing his greatness.
I'm very sorry, that was a heartbreaker for many. I have strong feelings against ManU since the '99 debacle.
But when Bayern Munich returns to the champions league next year, it will be ok since we all know they will win it anyway. ;D
I know I ask for much, but is anyone able to tape the Vaughan Williams documentary tonight on BBC4 and to post it f.i. to rapidshare or YouTube? If what I am asking is nonsense with regard to technical barriers, then forgive me. I am no expert on video matters.Oh yes please!
Handley is the most consistently pleasing
I know I ask for much, but is anyone able to tape the Vaughan Williams documentary tonight on BBC4 and to post it f.i. to rapidshare or YouTube? If what I am asking is nonsense with regard to technical barriers, then forgive me. I am no expert on video matters.
Thom
This cycle?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614595CH38L._SS400_.gif)
Thom
I am out tonight but I have set up the DVD to record the programme, however, something often goes horribly wrong ( as in the time when I asked my mother-in-law to record a crucial football match but she recorded a "Gardener's World" special about turnips instead (I am not joking).
If it comes out ok I haven't the faintest idea how to post it on Youtube or Rapidshare (whatever that is) but i could probably get a copy done at work and would be happy to send one to you or anyone else (within reason) who wants one.
Jeffrey
ps If it doesn't come out it will probably be available for a week on the BBC i Player and I asked one of the technicians at school today if they could copy it, if it goes wrong tonight. He will see what he can do.
pps Good news. I've just checked the BBC 4 listings and the programme is repeated twice on Saturday. So, I should definitely be able to record it.
Thom
I am out tonight but I have set up the DVD to record the programme, however, something often goes horribly wrong ( as in the time when I asked my mother-in-law to record a crucial football match but she recorded a "Gardener's World" special about turnips instead (I am not joking).
If it comes out ok I haven't the faintest idea how to post it on Youtube or Rapidshare (whatever that is) but i could probably get a copy done at work and would be happy to send one to you or anyone else (within reason) who wants one.
Jeffrey
ps If it doesn't come out it will probably be available for a week on the BBC i Player and I asked one of the technicians at school today if they could copy it, if it goes wrong tonight. He will see what he can do.
pps Good news. I've just checked the BBC 4 listings and the programme is repeated twice on Saturday. So, I should definitely be able to record it.
if Thom and Christo (and Harry?) agree, that is.
Great, Jeffrey! I have an idea - if you can make a copy of the programme, send it to me. I am quite computer-savvy. I could make copies for the other Dutch members who are interested, if Thom and Christo (and Harry?) agree, that is. This scheme could 'ease your burden'...
Thom, Johan and Johan,
I think that the best thing is if I record it twice tomorrow (it is televised on three separate occasions) and then send one of the DVDs to Johan (Jezetha), who can then magically convert it to a format which can be viewed by everyone. Alternatively, the helpful media technician at school says that he can copy a DVD as long as it is not a commercially available pre-recorded one. I would then be happy to drive down to Harwich and smuggle it on to the Hook of Holland ferry ;D
That'll suit me fine - I live very near Hook of Holland! ;D
Ok, it will be in an anonymous looking brown package, labelled "Vaughan Williams...scandalous revelations about his love life...not to be opened by those of a nervous disposition". :o
;D
But thanks for the warning all the same - I think I'll check with my GP first.
This cycle?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614595CH38L._SS400_.gif)
Ooh, does this mean that you are thinking about getting it? :)Yes. I thought it would be a good start, just have a few VWs (Hickox, and Haitink/8) and Tallis Fantasia of Frühbeck de Burgos, which is great.
Holy crap. I just heard an extract of Dona nobis pacem in the documentary, I need to hear the full piece asap - is there a preferred recording? I think I may find the 1936 one a bit too creaky sounding for a first listen.
Holy crap. I just heard an extract of Dona nobis pacem in the documentary, I need to hear the full piece asap - is there a preferred recording? I think I may find the 1936 one a bit too creaky sounding for a first listen.It's a superb piece, IMO, and belies its fix-up nature (it was assembled from sections written over a rather large period of time). I've got Hickox on EMI (coupled with the equally fine if rather less immediately awe-inspiring Sancta Civitas) and I notice it appears to be for sale for four quid at Amazon.co.uk. ;)
It's a superb piece, IMO, and belies its fix-up nature (it was assembled from sections written over a rather large period of time). I've got Hickox on EMI (coupled with the equally fine if rather less immediately awe-inspiring Sancta Civitas) and I notice it appears to be for sale for four quid at Amazon.co.uk. ;)
Great review, Jeffrey! First Lethe, then you - now I am really looking forward to watching it (but receiving the DVD first, of course).
This recording of Dona Nobis Pacem with Abravanel/Utah SO is paired with a fine account of the 6th Symphony which has been mentioned a number of times.
(http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/6169/vaughanwilliams6donanobxz4.jpg)
Excellent review Jeffrey, thanks. I have bought the 3 hour documentary you were referring to, and it was/is very interesting indeed. So am now looking forward to watch this recent documentary. VW's music is very dear to me and that being the case it is important for me also to know more about the man behind the music.
Th.
Strongly recommend the CD below. It is my favourite of the various two CD collections of music by Vaughan Williams. It contains Boults fine recording of Dona Nobis Pacem and some other fine lesser known works, including the beautiful Magnificat, Sargent's underrated recording of the Tallis Fantasia (which is the version I most often play...he is an underrated conductor), Larry Adler performing the late Harmonica Romance and much else besides. Furthermore, it sees the return of a quirkily memorable work, which I really like, the "Fantasia (quasi variazone) on the Old 104th Psalm Tune." This originally appeared with Boult's EMI recording of the Ninth Symphony and has not been seen since; despite my brother commenting to me that it reminded him of that old children's favourite "Sparky's Magic Piano", I think that it is a fine and unusual work, with the piano playing a dominant role. It is one of those late craggy works by Vaughan Williams (like the late Violin Sonata and Epithalamion), which are oddly compelling.
I am now determined to make a stab at hearing all the RVW I possibly can - I'm surprised how much I have missed.
Sounds neat :) If I grab this one, what would you recommend for Sanca Civitas, or is Hickox the only option? (I am now determined to make a stab at hearing all the RVW I possibly can - I'm surprised how much I have missed.)
I am not sure if the BBC I-Player is available from outside the UK but the documentary is now available on there :
clicky (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b00bfmt4.shtml?order=aztitle%3Aalphabetical&filter=category%3A100006&scope=iplayercategories&start=1&version_pid=b00bfmn5)
I had never heard any RVW before seeing it last night on BBC 4 - I must confess only 2 extracts caught my attention for further exploration : the Tallis Fantasia, and the 5th symphony.
High quality documentary in any case - well worth the licence fee ;D
I am not sure if the BBC I-Player is available from outside the UK but the documentary is now available on there :"Sorry, this programme is only available to play in the UK"
Turns out the specs of my PC are too old to use the BBC download manager - i gave it a try anyway but that crashed everything, so not going further in the experiment :-\
Since one or two weeks (?), all Amazons and other music stores of this planet, are presenting an EMI 30CD box called The Collector's Edition, to be released towards the end of June. And costing around 40 GBP, 60 USD, 50 Euros. Does anyone know, what recordings these are? Supposedly most of the well-known EMI recordings of the last decades? Any news on that?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61W3ZvHH-kL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Nothing new there. :(
I wish that EMI would reissue Paavo Berglund's Bournemouth recording of Symphony 6: Very frustrating that it has been (once again) missed out in all the 50th anniversary stuff.
Got the Tony Palmer DVD in the mail yesterday, along with Spano's new account of the 5th Symphony and Vaughan Williams' own historic (1952) performance, coupled with a 1936 Dona Nobis Pacem. (http://www.smilies.4-user.de/include/Grosse/smilie_gr_136.gif)
BBC Music Magazine has a whole issue devoted to Vaughan Williams (July Issue). Now in the UK shops. The accompanying CD features Symphony No 5 (BBC SO 2007 Proms, Andrew Davis) and the Mass in G Minor.
I have just noticed, Jeffrey...you have started posting CD covers! You have obviously mastered the technique!
Thanks to you Colin. There's no stopping me now with my advanced knowledge of technical wizardry ;D
I'll upgrade my system specs. The Sussex Whizzkid is coming... :o ;D
I am going to watch 'O Thou Transcendent' either this evening or tomorrow. I have seen the BBC documentary last week, thanks to you, Jeffrey. I'll be able to compare and contrast.
I liked the documentary. One criticism: if your theme is 'the artist inspired to make great things by the female of the species', I want some stab at a possible explanation why this should be so. It's not at all self-evident. Think of all the nth-rate poetry inspired by love... Now you simply got a mention and/or picture of every woman RVW ever took a fancy to or found attractive. Which is the kind of thing most heterosexual males would recognize, but tells us nothing about creativity and its origins.
As a writer who thinks he understands something of the mechanisms involved, I would have been interested to learn something new.
I liked the documentary. One criticism: if your theme is 'the artist inspired to make great things by the female of the species', I want some stab at a possible explanation why this should be so. It's not at all self-evident. Think of all the nth-rate poetry inspired by love... Now you simply got a mention and/or picture of every woman RVW ever took a fancy to or found attractive. Which is the kind of thing most heterosexual males would recognize, but tells us nothing about creativity and its origins.
You make a very interesting point Johan. My own feeling is that because Vaughan Williams' private life (especially his relationship with Adeline and Ursula) was such a closed book until now (Ursula's biography, good as it is, is something of an account of VW's desk diary rather than an attempted exploration of his inner life and relationships), there was bound to be an over-reaction the other way after the death of Ursula. Hence Michael Kennedy's description of Symphony 4 as "rage against Adeline". I am unconvinced, although the revelations about VW's affair with Ursula, her wartime pregnancy by Ralph (possibly) when she was still married to her first husband do help us to fill out the picture of VW. Nothing I saw on either documentary really changed the way I feel about VW as a man of great integrity and a truly great composer. The juxtaposition of images of dead children, in horrific war newsreel footage, alonside Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony, in the Palmer TV documentary was the least convincing thing I saw in either film.
Yes, we quickly reach a point when the 'documentary' is more about the creator of the documentary, than about the ostensible subject thereof.
You will have noticed that Hickox's is the preferred choice for No.6-totally against the grain of most contributers to this site!!
Interesting indeed! I didn't even dare to buy the Hickox VI - as it met with such a general disapproval. But since I, no doubt caused by my regrettable lack of insight, tend to disagree with some other common opinions too (I don't prefer Davis' Sixth and I happen to love Thompson's), and since I appreciate Hickox's Fifth, especially, I'll now invest in this CD too:
(http://www.smr-group.net/hfr_discartwork/vw_symphonies_01t.jpg)
Interesting indeed! I didn't even dare to buy the Hickox VI - as it met with such a general disapproval. But since I, no doubt caused by my regrettable lack of insight, tend to disagree with some other common opinions too (I don't prefer Davis' Sixth and I happen to love Thompson's), and since I appreciate Hickox's Fifth, especially, I'll now invest in this CD too:
(http://www.smr-group.net/hfr_discartwork/vw_symphonies_01t.jpg)
Stronly recommend the CD below if you like VW Symphony 6; Benjamin's Symphony is a similarly troubled and visionary score. One of the discoveries of last year for me.
I attended a wonderful performance (semi-staged) of the Pilgrim's Progress at Sadler's Wells in London as my birthday treat yesterday (Hickox, Philharmonia, Roderick Williams etc). I was unprepared for the overwhelming emotional reaction to seeing this live. It has to be one of the best concerts I have been to.
The programme booklet was really good as it covers all the concerts given by the Philharmonia in this anniversary year (ie all nine symphonies etc) with articles by Michael Kennedy etc. I am going back on 2nd November, hopefully, to see them play symphonies 9, 6 and 5 at the Festival Hall. If any VW admirers want me to get the booklet for them, I am happy to do so (it costs £3.50).
My belated congratulations, Jeffrey! And what a perfect birthday present. A pity I can't be there on 2nd November. I have never heard RVW live... :'(
(I still have to watch "O Thou Transcendent", btw. Must find a 'slot' for it...)
Happy belated birthday, Jeffrey!
Thirded :P
Is this the horribly out of print (even on CD) 4th that people say is rather good? Even though I don't have any means to play vinyl atm, I am tempted to snap it up...
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7710/79076601nu4.jpg)
Berglund's Vaughan Williams Symphony No 4 is just back, with his terrific sibelian Symphony No 6 (one of the few successful recordings, much better than the Hickox in my view) and Gibson's underrated Symphony No 5. I did a review on Amazon. Here is a link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Nos-6/dp/B0018OAP2U/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214296116&sr=1-7
Ah, how ideal, I can finally buy it. Thanks! :D I bet the greedy person selling the old issue for £44 on Amazon marketplace is wishing he sold it sooner, at a more sane price.
Edit: Hmm with the very good Silv. Tallis fantasia (which I've heard before from Operashare) and a decent recording of the oboe concerto along with the core syms, this could probably be a superb intro CD to one skeptical of RVW in general - I'll take note if I ever encounter such a person 0:)
Yes, it's a really good CD. Personally I'd have preferred them to use the old British Composers cover art (landscape photo of stormy scene) rather than a photo of a wasp's nest, but it's the music that counts. Having said that my work colleague likes the wasp photo. (my life is really boring isn't it ::)).
I could listen to you all day. Don't stop. ;D
Karl, Johan, Thom, Lethe.
THANK YOU :)
Berglund's Vaughan Williams Symphony No 4 is just back, with his terrific sibelian Symphony No 6 (one of the few successful recordings, much better than the Hickox in my view) and Gibson's underrated Symphony No 5. I did a review on Amazon. Here is a link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Nos-6/dp/B0018OAP2U/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214296116&sr=1-7
Jeffrey
Sir Alexander Gibson in Vaughan Williams?? Astonishing! I cannot remember him programming much Vaughan Williams during his tenure as Principal Conductor of the Royal Scottish National Orchestra(the SNO as it was then). But, of course, VW was very much out of fashion in those days.
Gibson was a fine conductor but suffered from a lack of charisma, a lack of self-confidence and-very sadly-a decline in his later years after giving up his Scottish post. His contribution to music in Scotland-particularly Scottish Opera-was incalculable however.
At a time when only one British symphony orchestra is under the direction of a British conductor(the Halle under Mark Elder) it is worth recalling the glory days of conductors like Boult, Barbirolli, Groves, Pritchard, Del Mar, Gibson, Rignold and Thomson.
V good points Colin. Gibson's VW No 5 is excellent (as is his Sibelius box on Chandos).
Good review of concert I attended:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/stage/opera/article4192745.ece
Gibson was a particularly fine Sibelian. I have a number of the Sibelius Tone Poems conducted by Gibson and his version of Symphony No.5.
I was told by an orchestral manager that in his later days he was difficult to engage as a conductor because he appeared to have lost confidence in his own ability to conduct. We all know of composers who ran out of inspiration or who felt that this was the case(Sibelius himself, Bax to an extent) but perhaps we forget that some conductors may feel the same way.
Hmm...think I ought to reflect more on this...
Good point Colin; sad about Alexander Gibson. You're up late tonight!
The advantages of retirement, Jeffrey :) :)
I find that I am listening to the Pilgrim's Progress all the time now since seeing it live last Sunday (Hickox, Chandos recording). I am surprised that I ignored this work for so long.
I have the old Boult recording on EMI although I did read the rave reviews of the Hickox. One aspect of the older version are the rehearsal excerpts included on the CD. It is fascinating to listen to Sir Adrian rehearsing the work. What a marvellous English gentleman he was! A type probably now virtually extinct in this country-courteous, polite, old world charm. But what a magnificent musician! His contribution to British music in the 20th century will never die. Almost single-handedly he preserved the traditions and the reputations of many composers who might otherwise have sunk without trace. Ok I am being unfair to Barbirolli but you probably know what I mean :)
There's one I still know by title only.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I was lucky enough to see Boult conduct most of the VW symphonies live. His Lyrita Rubbra 7th Symphony is an especial favourite. I have the Boult Pilgrim's Progess too but in some ways the best CD version I have heard is the (unavailable ) Igor Kennaway Northern Opera version in front of an audience. It has the atmosphere of the live performance missing elsewhere (a work colleague lent it to me).
I am sure that I saw Boult conducting once but I cannot recall what or where. Tall, ramrod erect, looking like an Edwardian Colonel.
Sir Malcolm Sargent-who did some VW rather well but whose reputation is still sunk in the slough-conducted the first orchestral concert I attended: Holst's Planets back in the 50s.
Are there some recommended recording of his string quartets? What do you think of these works?
Are there some recommended recording of his string quartets? What do you think of these works?
I see this at eMusic. Worthwhile? How does it compare with the Naxos? Listening to a sample of the first movement of the Second SQ the Medici take things slower than the Maginni.
I went this morning to the Royal Library in The Hague. One of the books I came home with was the one by Wilfrid Mellers about RVW, which I intend to read asap.
After almost a lifetime spent with wrong friends, you are improving your life tremendously. 8)
You flatter me, my friend. 8)
(http://www.emusic.com/img/album/110/122/11012288_155_155.jpeg)
I see this at eMusic. Worthwhile? How does it compare with the Naxos? Listening to a sample of the first movement of the Second SQ the Medici take things slower than the Maginni.
I have these recordings in a nice Nimbus box set "A Portrait of Vaughan Williams" I find the Nimbus recordings to be rather more "intimate" than the Naxos; a warmer recording. The performances are just as good, if a little more expressive.
Unfortunately, I will be able to attend just two: the 4th (under Yan-Pascal Tortelier) and the 8th (under Mark Elder).
Just two... I have never heard RVW live in my life. :'(
's-Hertogenbosch (nice spelling test for our Britons here ;) )
Has Bernard Haitink never conducted any RVW in his native country then? Does he indeed conduct much at all in the Netherlands these days? I seem to recall that his relationship with the Concertgebouw was not entirely happy at the end of his time as Music Director(or am I mistaken?)
There is a Dutch/South African cricketer(yes I love cricket too :)) who plays English county cricket for Essex called Ryan ten Doeschate. His name gave people here some trouble in the pronounciation stakes :)
Haitink - no, he never did, I'm afraid. His RVW adventures were solely constricted to his British exile. ;) And you're not mistaken about his relationship with the Concertgebouw either, though the estrangement was temporary, af far as i can remember.
Is it really that hard to pronounce "Ryan"? ;D
Haitink - no, he never did, I'm afraid. His RVW adventures were solely constricted to his British exile. ;)
Not quite. He's a Conductor Emeritus of the BSO, and the only occasion when I have heard a Vaughan Williams symphony live, was when he led a wicked smashing performance of the Sixth here at Symphony Hall.
Stop it at once ;) :)
There will be a lot of RVW in this year's proms (for obvious reasons). I think the whole cycle of symphonies will be played under various conductors.
No. (http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/glasses3.gif)
No??? (http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/glasses3.gif)
's-Hertogenbosch (nice spelling test for our Britons here ;)
Home of Hieronymus?
Of course - or Jeroen Bosch, as we say. 's-Hertogenbosch is the official name of the city. Den Bosch is more commonly used. (Cf. 's-Gravenhage and Den Haag.)
Has anyone dared to do the Antarctica without wind machine? I'm wondering if that would help it get taking a little more seriously....
Is it really true to say that the Sinfonia Antartica is not taken 'seriously'? That may have been the case at one time but I am not so sure is a view still held.
And would omitting the wind machine help? Richard Strauss used one in both 'Don Quixote' and the Alpine Symphony-both of which are taken seriously. So too, Ravel's 'Daphnis et Chloe' and Messiaen's ' Opera 'Saint-Francois d'Assise' and other works.
Has anyone dared to do the Antarctica without wind machine?
And Brian's Tenth Symphony...
The performance in Jeroen Bosch'/Hieronymus Bosch' birthplace, Den Bosch/'s-Hertogenbosch, I attended back in 2001, by the Brabants Orkest under Petri Sakari, was indeed done without windmachine. Most of that part, as far as I remember, was done by the (augmented?) horn section.
Ensor has me down to a T. Incredible! ;D
I do feel that a composer's wishes should be adhered to! If VW wanted a wind machine then that is what should be used(provided, of course, one is available!). Just like Havergal Brian's 2nd Symphony....if the man wants 16 horns then let's try to grant his wishes...!
Has anyone heard the Chandos CD "The Film Music of Ralph Vaughan Williams, Volume 1" on which the BBC Philharmonic(Rumon Gamba) play the Suite from the music for the film "Scott of the Antartic"? That is an interesting work, providing the complete music VW wrote for the film(later reworked for the Sinfonia) but NOT using a wind-machine!
It is quite remarkable that VW wrote the music without even seeing the script for the film. When one watches the fim itself(with less than half of VW's music included of course) one is struck by how incredibly fitting the music is! OK, the film IS dated and does have a very British stiff upper-lip portrayal of the doomed expedition but VW himself was very aware of the dangerous(and ultimately fatal) risks run by the polar party and sought to convey the dreadful tragedy as it unfolded. The combination of his music and the film itself is unbelievably potent. It is indeed as VW wrote in 1945 almost as if "the film (was) devised to accompany it(the music)"
Yes, you are the one in the top hat ;D
I belie my years, don't I? ;)
On topic: I am reading the late Wilfrid Mellers's book on RVW at last, Ralph Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion. A heady cocktail as usual. Stimulating. In the process I plan on watching O thou transcendent, too...
Will be v interested to hear what you think of the documentary Johan. There is a really angry debate going on in the letters page of the Vaughan Williams's Society Journal at the moment about the documentary, which is fun. I am tempted to buy the forthcoming "Letters of Vaughan Williams" but it is expensive; £95 (or £60 for members of VW Soc for v limited time). My local library wont order it as it's so expensive >:(
Off on my hols to Austria tomorrow so will not be compulsively posting for a week.
Will be v interested to hear what you think of the documentary Johan. There is a really angry debate going on in the letters page of the Vaughan Williams's Society Journal at the moment about the documentary, which is fun. I am tempted to buy the forthcoming "Letters of Vaughan Williams" but it is expensive; £95 (or £60 for members of VW Soc for v limited time). My local library wont order it as it's so expensive >:(
Off on my hols to Austria tomorrow so will not be compulsively posting for a week.
I'll report back. And - give my regards to Austria, where I've never been, only in spirit... (And enjoy yourself, of course!)
I'm hoping that this will be a healthy walking holiday and as I am overweight I will have to keep away from the cakes etc (well, maybe not >:D) I would love to visit St Florian and Ansfelden, with their Bruckner connections, but that is an unlikely scenario. I've only been to Austria once, on my one and only skiing trip, aged 12.
byebye for now :)
Enjoy your time in the country of Franz Schmidt, (Bruckner died before Austria came into being ;) ), Jeffrey!! 8) :D :)
(I'm leaving too, tonight, for the blessed isle of Crete, for two weeks. Planning to play my Kalomiris and Skalkottas collection there, and read Kazantzakis again - who was from Crete, there's even a Kazantzakis museum. Will also be having the Boult/EMI RVW box with me, otherwise this post would be completely OT 8))
Has anyone dared to do the Antarctica without wind machine? I'm wondering if that would help it get taking a little more seriously....
The impression I get, based on the reaction here at GMG and from what little I've read elsewhere, is that the reputation of this symphony has gone up over time along with the overall estimation of RVW as one of the most important composers of the 20th century. Perhaps some don't regard it as a proper symphony. I don't think that matters much anymore. (I recall something Thomas Pyncheon wrote about Mozart's lost Kazoo Concerto. ::) I might have to draw the line at that...)
(I'm leaving too, tonight, for the blessed isle of Crete, for two weeks. Planning to play my Kalomiris and Skalkottas collection there, and read Kazantzakis again - who was from Crete, there's even a Kazantzakis museum. Will also be having the Boult/EMI RVW box with me, otherwise this post would be completely OT 8))
These two sets are coming out next month from Music & Arts (The Art of Dmitri Mitropoulos):
http://www.musicandarts.com/0808_New_Class.html (http://www.musicandarts.com/0808_New_Class.html)
Besides all the other selections the first set has the Fantasia on a theme of Thomas Tallis and the second set has the VW 4th. I have some of the other works on different labels, but the remastering is the "2008 digital restoration utilizing the revolutionary 'harmonic balancing" technique'". I have the Furtwangler Bruckner set and the Toscanini Beethoven set that uses this same remastering technique and the results are excellent! I've been wanting to hear the VW/Mitropoulos 4th so this might be the right time...
Paul
These two sets are coming out next month from Music & Arts (The Art of Dmitri Mitropoulos):
http://www.musicandarts.com/0808_New_Class.html (http://www.musicandarts.com/0808_New_Class.html)
I think I am starting to "get" Vaughan Williams, thanks to Gibson's interpretation of symphony 5. Compared to Previn/LSO this has warmer sound, but is also more emotional. The first movement has a hushed expectancy, while the 3rd movement has a great yearning quality. Finale could have been taken with more vigour. Incidentally, I found this movement made me think of some sort of filmic finale, though the only one I could specify was the climax of Peter Weir's film Fearless, which I think has fugal accompaniment.
For both Gibson and Previn I thought the 2nd movement wasn't nearly presto as required, and the finale lacked true allegro. I suspect this is common performing practice, perhaps from a subconscious wish to make this another "Pastoral" symphony. Perhaps earlier performances are more stringent here?
I've now heard the 6th symphony conducted by Previn, Handley and Berglund. I'm not sure any of them get it quite right. I feel this work needs strongly felt underlying tension, almost (dare I say it?) Shostakovichian. I wonder if the Andrew Davis performance will meet my requirements...
The Andrew Davis recording is very good; the best in his VW symphony cycle. Personally I like Boult's 1950s Decca recording of Symphony 6 best of all, but it is only available in a boxed set. I like the Berglund, Davis, Haitink, Abravanel and Barbirolli also.
I had no idea Barbirolli had recorded the 6th...
I am looking for energised, symphonic performances, and am contemplating the Boult/Decca and Haitink sets. Has anyone heard Thomson's set? I understand it was energetic but very reverberant.
I had no idea Barbirolli had recorded the 6th...
I am looking for energised, symphonic performances, and am contemplating the Boult/Decca and Haitink sets. Has anyone heard Thomson's set? I understand it was energetic but very reverberant.
Barbirolli's 6th is a fiery account, but because of the unfamiliarity of the orchestra with the composer's idiom (which, sadly, is all too obvious) it cannot be considered the benchmark recording. I would opt for either Andrew Davis OR Maurice Abravanel. Both are great.
Thomas
Barbirolli's 6th is a fiery account, but because of the unfamiliarity of the orchestra with the composer's idiom (which, sadly, is all too obvious) it cannot be considered the benchmark recording.
How is that obvious? Please give concrete examples. What characterizes VW's "idiom"?
Barbirolli's recording with the Bavarian RSO is/was on Orfeo, coupled bizarrely with Brahms's Second Symphony.
Has anyone heard the re-release of the Berglund-Bournemouth account of the 6th yet? How does it compare?
Thomas
Quit stalking me, nincompoop.
You aren't interesting enough to stalk, sorry.
You are enormously easy to unsettle.
You are enormously easy to unsettle. Not surprising though since most of your material is just attitude, not substance. Again, a pity since I would have liked to learn more about VW's "idiom".
Can anybody else actually comment on that?
Since when have you cared about English music or its performance practice?
Thomas has a point.
In Barbirolli recordings, the grunting, moaning, or humming along of the conductor is an essential part.
So that is what foreign RVW performances have been lacking ;D Colin Davis is another master of this dicipline...
So, since sound67 can not answer the question, can anybody else explain, is there a specific recognizeable VW "idiom", and what consists "idiomatic" playing of his music?It's very, very Antarctican.
Well, of course, we know, there is no answer - it is already totally obvious that that was just one of sound67's hollow phrases. When someone says something vague but hinting at specialized knowledge like "they don't understand VW's idiom", then I find that interesting and want to know more about that.
So, since sound67 can not answer the question, can anybody else explain, is there a specific recognizeable VW "idiom", and what consists "idiomatic" playing of his music?
It's mostly just a question of tradition and how interpretations are passed down, and from the standpoint of the listener you get the impression that certain orchestras and conductors have that measure of experience that you don't get elsewhere. It's not (at least to my knowledge) a matter of mistakes so much as familiarity. I hear it with American and British music that doesn't get played often outside of the home countries. There may be, in addition, objective differences that are specific to how musicians play, but that would not have to be the case. If it sounds idiomatic in some way that would be enough. Special knowledge in listening amounts to no more than that. I don't think my American identity gives me any edge with Copland or Harris, except to the extent that I like some of their music and have listened to many recordings and a few performances. That isn't very specialized knowledge, it's just experience that many others don't have.
Thanks to scarpia and drogulus for getting us back on topic. Could we please avoid tedious flaming in future?
I hate to turn into M forever here, but could you formulate a more vague set of truisms than that?
No, I don't think I could. Does it need to be more vague? It certainly doesn't need to be more specific. From the standpoint of a performing musician there are perhaps nonvague differences in the way phrasing is done. For the listener it's mostly a matter of the music sounding like the player is aware of a performance tradition. Recently I attended a performance of Vaughan Williams (Serenade to Music) where the singers were accompanied by a piano instead of orchestra. The pianist played as though she had never encountered this music before, and the notes were delivered in what sounded like a mechanical fashion. Was this complete unfamiliarity? Was it poor musicianship, or was it merely unidiomatic? I don't know, nor do I have any idea how I could tell just by listening.
The question was, what distinctive performance traditions are associated with Vaughan Williams. The answer to that question has some chance of being interesting.
Maybe "idiomatic" is code for "sounds like Boult" :P
English music has 'traveled' too little. Ideas of what constitutes 'an idiomatic performance' can only really come about through comparison. If, say, German, French, Dutch orchestras and conductors had taken up RVW, then we could judge Boult's and others' approaches better, especially if those non-British performances were very different but just as satisfying
When all is said and done though, I think "idiomatic" simply boils down to "good". Many German orchestras have a darker string sound than e.g. the BBC orchestras - which would affect the result even if they play the music along the same interpretive parameters. Would that mean it'd be less "idiomatic"? Was Vaughan Williams' music composed with the sound of British orchestras (often referred to as brass bands with string attached) in mind? I don't think so.
Sadly, as you pointed out, a true comparison is not possible because there are so few recordings of RVW by German, or other central European orchestras. And the ones there are are let down by untidy ensemble (as the Bavarian RSO's of the 6th, especially in the brass - no, m-forever, I can't be more specific, it's tugged away in a packing case) or were done by less distinguished orchestras and conductors (such as the RVW 5th from Frankfurt/Oder).
Thomas
So that is what foreign RVW performances have been lacking ;D Colin Davis is another master of this dicipline...
Speaking of Sir Colin, does anyone know why he's never recorded any of the RVW symphonies?Uhh, maybe he doesn't like them? Just because he is British doesn't mean he is obliged to perform works by British composers. There are American conductors who wouldn't touch American music with the proverbial 10 foot pole so this phenomenon is not limited to Sir Colin.
Uhh, maybe he doesn't like them?
Uhh, maybe he doesn't like them? Just because he is British doesn't mean he is obliged to perform works by British composers. There are American conductors who wouldn't touch American music with the proverbial 10 foot pole so this phenomenon is not limited to Sir Colin.
A while ago I listened to Colin Davis conducting RVW's 4th on the radio, with the Bavarian RSO.
You can hear parts of it in this audio podcast on Bayern radio (about 40% into the sound file):
http://www.br-online.de/bayern4klassik/galleria/audio-williams-sinfonie-ID1218876987968.xml
Also: http://www.newberkshire.com/7bso-boston-symphony-colin-davis.php
Thomas
You probably didn't mean it, but the wording here comes close to confusing 'Vaughan Williams' with 'British music'. Colin Davis, one of the greatest exponents of e.g. Tippett, would disagree strongly that he 'wouldn't touch British music with a 10 foot pole'. :)I am not sure if I would cast Sir Colin as a great exponent of British music in general. Yes he did record Britten, Elgar, Holst, and a little a bit of Walton (in addition to Tippett that you mentioned). But these composers are probably as "cosmopolitan" as they come. They are British but they have quite a bit of international stature. Can you think of a British composer whose music would not be heard if it wasn't for Sir Colin? This is not a knock on Sir Colin, his niche really wasn't as an exponent of British music in general.
I am not sure if I would cast Sir Colin as a great exponent of British music in general. Yes he did record Britten, Elgar, Holst, and a little a bit of Walton (in addition to Tippett that you mentioned). But these composers are probably as "cosmopolitan" as they come. They are British but they have quite a bit of international stature. Can you think of a British composer whose music would not be heard if it wasn't for Sir Colin? This is not a knock on Sir Colin, his niche really wasn't as an exponent of British music in general.
A while ago I listened to Colin Davis conducting RVW's 4th on the radio, with the Bavarian RSO.
Well, yes, back to Tippett - Davis was the foremost recording conductor of his music from the mid 60s onwards, the operas (his most important works, probably) above all; that is, from the time that Tippett began to carve out a reputation beyond the shores of Britain. I have a feeling the two facts are not unrelated. The premieres of most of Tippett's major orchestral works from the Concerto for Orchestra right up to The Rose Lake, and of his 3rd and 4th operas, were entrusted to Davis. Somewhere or other I have quotations from Tippett himself full of gratitude for the work Davis did on his behalf, which I feel was probably instrumental in turning the composer from a 'British' figure into one of international stature.
...in a way that counteracted [Tippett's] reputation for bad librettos (a flaw that unfortunately couldn't be disguised in his later operas).
This tradition is to create images from the depths of the imagination and to give them form whether visual, intellectual or musical. For it is only through images that the inner world communicates at all. Images of vigour for a decadent period, images of calm for one too violent. Images of reconciliation for the worlds torn by division. And in an age of mediocrity and shattered dreams, images of abounding, generous, exuberant beauty.
A while ago I listened to Colin Davis conducting RVW's 4th on the radio, with the Bavarian RSO.
You can hear parts of the symphony in this audio podcast on Bayern radio (about 40% into the sound file):
http://www.br-online.de/bayern4klassik/galleria/audio-williams-sinfonie-ID1218876987968.xml
Davis also discusses the music - in German!
Also: http://www.newberkshire.com/7bso-boston-symphony-colin-davis.php
Thomas
I think I'm the only person on earth who likes Tippett's libretti! At least, I feel they are of a piece with his personality and above all with his music - the same peculiar blend of awkwardness and courageousness which, to my mind, only increases the communicative human power of the whole. BTW, humour my posting probably Tippett's most famous non-libretto words, a passage whose oft-quoted closing words encapsulate Tippett's music perfectly:
Sorry to derail things; back to VW (though the VW-Tippett link is an interesting one too....)
The Haitink cycle has been criticised in some quarters. Some people-including myself- admire the performance of the Sinfonia Antartica because it appears to invest that work with a majesty and grandeur which elevates a piece which can seem incidental to the VW symphonic canon into a more substantial and genuinely 'symphonic' work. Is this then just a 'better' performance? Perhaps so. Is it 'unidiomatic'? Probably not. Is Haitink's interpretation of the 'London Symphony' unidiomatic? Well, it is 'different'.
I apologise for not being able to be more 'specific' or necessarily helpful. Perhaps critics (and some of us) are just being a bit lazy in using words like 'unidiomatic' without more clearly defining what we mean by that :)
I hesitate to reopen the discussion of 'idiomatic/unidiomatic' performances of VW's music. I have been on holiday in Norway and Sweden-in fact I still am :) :)
Having accessed the forum from a friend's house in Stockholm however I note that there is a reference to the point I made some time ago about Haitink's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica as unidiomatic but deeply impressive and convincing.
What did I mean by that? I must admit that it was the sort of remark which needed greater thought and consideration. Many of the points made subsequently impress me as very valid. There is a 'performing tradition' in VW which has developed over the decades since the music was first performed. As a consequence of the fact that first and following performances were given by British orchestras and that conductors like Boult and Barbirolli were particularly associated with these performances we do-naturally-think of such a 'performing tradition' as specifically British. A conductor like Vernon Handley is frequently seen as Boult's conducting heir-yet Handley's interpretations are not slavish imitations of those by Sir Adrian.
The reality that few non-British orchestras or conductors performed VW meant that it was extremely difficult to compare or contrast these interpretations with possible alternatives. We talk about conductors brought up in the central European traditions of Bruckner and Mahler-composers whose music was relatively little heard in Britain until later in the 20th century.
Haitink is such a conductor. Some of us then assume that he can bring a different perspective to the interpretation of VW.
Yet, of course, Haitink recorded his VW cycle with the London Philharmonic-the orchestra most particularly associated with Boult's performances and recordings on early LP. The Haitink cycle has been criticised in some quarters. Some people-including myself- admire the performance of the Sinfonia Antartica because it appears to invest that work with a majesty and grandeur which elevates a piece which can seem incidental to the VW symphonic canon into a more substantial and genuinely 'symphonic' work. Is this then just a 'better' performance? Perhaps so. Is it 'unidiomatic'? Probably not. Is Haitink's interpretation of the 'London Symphony' unidiomatic? Well, it is 'different'.
I apologise for not being able to be more 'specific' or necessarily helpful. Perhaps critics (and some of us) are just being a bit lazy in using words like 'unidiomatic' without more clearly defining what we mean by that :)
Anyway...I am returning to my holiday for another few days ;D :)
Oh, just stumbled across André Previns Sinfonia Antarctica with the LSO from the box set, what do you think about this one?
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/antarctica_previn.jpg)
For those who don't know this one, I've got a snippet for you:
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/rvw7-1.mp3[/mp3]
I must say it seems :-*:-*:-* I love this :-*:-*:-* celibidachesque interpretation much more than the one I preferred before (Bakels on Naxos). It's much slower and therefore more exiting I think. The speed (e.g. the first Andante is 11 minutes) goes well with this piece. Maybe it's just that the visionary Previn wanted to slow down the pole melting in 1967 already.
I hesitate to reopen the discussion of 'idiomatic/unidiomatic' performances of VW's music. I have been on holiday in Norway and Sweden-in fact I still am :) :)
Having accessed the forum from a friend's house in Stockholm however I note that there is a reference to the point I made some time ago about Haitink's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica as unidiomatic but deeply impressive and convincing.
What did I mean by that? I must admit that it was the sort of remark which needed greater thought and consideration. Many of the points made subsequently impress me as very valid. There is a 'performing tradition' in VW which has developed over the decades since the music was first performed. As a consequence of the fact that first and following performances were given by British orchestras and that conductors like Boult and Barbirolli were particularly associated with these performances we do-naturally-think of such a 'performing tradition' as specifically British. A conductor like Vernon Handley is frequently seen as Boult's conducting heir-yet Handley's interpretations are not slavish imitations of those by Sir Adrian.
The reality that few non-British orchestras or conductors performed VW meant that it was extremely difficult to compare or contrast these interpretations with possible alternatives. We talk about conductors brought up in the central European traditions of Bruckner and Mahler-composers whose music was relatively little heard in Britain until later in the 20th century.
Haitink is such a conductor. Some of us then assume that he can bring a different perspective to the interpretation of VW.
Yet, of course, Haitink recorded his VW cycle with the London Philharmonic-the orchestra most particularly associated with Boult's performances and recordings on early LP. The Haitink cycle has been criticised in some quarters. Some people-including myself- admire the performance of the Sinfonia Antartica because it appears to invest that work with a majesty and grandeur which elevates a piece which can seem incidental to the VW symphonic canon into a more substantial and genuinely 'symphonic' work. Is this then just a 'better' performance? Perhaps so. Is it 'unidiomatic'? Probably not. Is Haitink's interpretation of the 'London Symphony' unidiomatic? Well, it is 'different'.
I apologise for not being able to be more 'specific' or necessarily helpful. Perhaps critics (and some of us) are just being a bit lazy in using words like 'unidiomatic' without more clearly defining what we mean by that :)
Anyway...I am returning to my holiday for another few days ;D :)
Well, it looks magnificent, but the design/engineering wasn't so magnificent $:)
I've had this on the Pod recently and I'm trying to adjust to the slow first movement. On the whole I think Previn is a convincing interpreter but he's not my first choice in any of the symphonies, though I had the LP of the 5th and it was a serious contender, or so I thought at the time (decades ago).
Very true, and the string quartet performance is also very good. I have yet to see a truly bland, or poor, performance from the Nash Ensemble. Their Bliss Chamber Works CD is one of my top ten CDs ever!
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/66137.jpg)
I put the "portrait" twofer (was: Cala) forward to sneak in some even lesser-known British repertoire to annoy m forever. ;D
Though Stanzeleit's performance isn't bad either.
Thomas
Thanks for the violin sonata recommendation. I don't know this work at all, and I really like the craggy RVW, so this sounds like a must.
Thanks for this contribution. You don't have to "apologize" for re-opening the discussion - it was never really "opened" since no one so far has been able to say what an "idiomatic" performance of RVW's music actually is. You and some other posters made some valid points regarding how "authentic" or "idiomatic" performing traditions can come into life and are handed down to the next generations of performers, and all that is very true in general, but none of that answers the question what characterizes an "idiomatic" performance of this music - or not.I don't think anyone has a good answer without any scores, M.....
BTW, did you go to the Vasa museum in Stockholm? Extremely impressive.
Piano ConcertoBoth amongst my favourite RVW works, particularly the concerto. I'll have to take a look at the other two you mentioned.
Symphony 9
I've only heard Bakels and Previn thus far. I like Previn's performance but feel he could have gone further - if you're going to go slow, this music could stand to be even slower and grander.
My rec is you go straight to Boult for Sinfonia Antartica. I have the 1953 mono recording (with the John Geilgud spoken introductions). This performance has never been surpassed and rarely equalled.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VKRWJDS1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
If mono isn't acceptable get the EMI stereo recording.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41D35JEC9PL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
to be able to say you "know" a composer's idiom, i think, definitely requires several scores and lots of time- so probably no one who regularly posts on this thread could say anything worthwhile (unless i'm proven wrong) ;).
50th Anniversary of Vaughan Williams's death today as he died in the early hours of 26th August 1958, seven hours before Adrian Boult and the LPO recorded his 9th Symphony (being performed in an all VW concert at the Proms in London tonight). Sadly I wont be there as I have to take my daughter to catch the Harwich-Hook-of-Holland ferry, but I'll listen on the radio and at midnight I played the 5 Variants on Dives and Lazarus (played at VW's funeral in Westminster Abbey) and Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm as my own little tribute.
I think I'll refesh my (and RVW's) memory by listening to the Piano Concerto.
(Your daughter coming to Leiden at last!)
I think I'll refesh my (and RVW's) memory by listening to the Piano Concerto.
Proms tonight (26/8) all VW Concert. BBC Radio 3. Tallis, Job, Symphony No 9 etc.
Thanks for this contribution. You don't have to "apologize" for re-opening the discussion - it was never really "opened" since no one so far has been able to say what an "idiomatic" performance of RVW's music actually is.
This is an interesting, enjoyable version of the PC, with the Slovenian RSO:
I seriously doubt it's a patch for the Lyrita version (which also includes John Foulds' fine Dynamic Triptych.
(http://www.lyrita.co.uk/covers/SRCD0211.jpg)
Thomas
The Boult mono sounds very decent for its age. If you are alright with older recordings in general these will not be difficult to listen to. As "interesting" as the Haitink may be, it doesn't compensate in overall value for Boult who practically owns several of the symphonies (1, 5, 6). The total inspiration of his interpretations IMO belie any thoughts of "stuffiness". If anything, that term better applies to later run-throughs by conductors performing the music on autopilot, such as Hickox. One of the Boults is basically the only "mandatory" cycle for fans - after that it's down to preference.
I listened to the concert on the car radio en-route to Holland. Oddly nostalgic for me. I first discovered Vaughan Williams when I was 17 in 1972 and worked on a farm in Holland for 6 weeks between school and university in the summer of 1973. I remember driving round the farm tractor in deserted fields in Zeeland (at a mad reckless speed....I was much less timid in tose days) with Vaughan Williams's Ninth Symphony running through my head. It was really weird and a huge nostalgia trip to be listening to Symphony No 9 on the car radio while taking my daughter to study in Holland for one year. The performance of Job and the Ninth Symphony, conducted by Andrew Davis sounded very moving. Hearing Job was another nostalgic experience as I heard Adrian Boult conduct it (it is dedicated to him) on 12th October 1972 at the Festival Hall in London, VW's 100th birthday.
For me the highlight of this anniversary year has been attending The Pilgrim's Progress in London and I am looking forward to hearing Richard Hickox conduct symphonies 5,6 and 9 in November.
Just realized it was his 50th anniversary of death (2008-08-26).
Deutschlandfunk addresses this. (http://www.podcast.de/episode/836000/Ralph_Vaughan_Williams,_50._Todestag) (German language)
I KNEW you'd be listening to the concert on your car radio! I only wondered whether your daughter would put up with it. But she apparently did... :)
I always have a problem with Sir Andrew Davies in that I find his conducting rather run-of-the-mill. I like his (rostrum) personality more than his talent. Both Job and the Ninth need a visionary to really bring them off, which Andrew Davies, IMO, signally isn't... Still - I enjoyed the performances up to a certain point (the works are so strong, they can withstand mediocrity).
The deal was that she HAD to put up with me listening to it on the car radio, in return for me accompanying her on the madcap trip to Leiden at the last minute. There was one ugly moment, however, when she decided to call her boyfriend on her mobile and instructed me to "turn the music down" :o >:D >:(. I explained that I was doing no such thing, so a sort-of compromise was eventually reached where I pretended to turn the radio down, but then turned it straight up again ;D
It sounded to me (from what I was allowed to hear) that Davis's performances of Job and the 9th Symphony were rather better than those on his Warner CD coupling but, no doubt, the moving nature of the occasion and the live, appreciative (apart from my daughter) audience had something to do with that.
My apologies to Sir Andrew Davis for consistently and stupidly misspelling his name... ???
For this you'll receive from me the sobriquet Braveheart.
He has improved, then. Still, I don't expect greatness from him, alas... :(
I beg you pardon, MF, but I addressed precisely that point when the issue was raised.
I listened to the concert on the car radio en-route to Holland. Oddly nostalgic for me. I first discovered Vaughan Williams when I was 17 in 1972 and worked on a farm in Holland for 6 weeks between school and university in the summer of 1973. I remember driving round the farm tractor in deserted fields in Zeeland (at a mad reckless speed....I was much less timid in tose days) with Vaughan Williams's Ninth Symphony running through my head. It was really weird and a huge nostalgia trip to be listening to Symphony No 9 on the car radio while taking my daughter to study in Holland for one year.
My own first encounter with the Ninth came later in the decade, but in a similar landscape. I remember vividly that our Radio 4 broadcast all of his symphonies, probably Boult's second cycle, in the Summer of 1978.
BTW, there's a literary equivalent to your nostalgic memories of Zeeland. In 1962, William Golding wrote about his sailing trip across the Channel to Zeeland, for the Holiday magazine, reprinted among his collection of essays in `A Moving Target'. His observations on the landscape and its people remind me of your account - might be fun to read them (for me, they are). :)
I have listened to most of the VW symphonies at some point, but I never got much into the music. Maybe I should have another go at exploring his "idiom". What symphonies would the VW experts here recommend to listen to first?
VW's own favourite was A London Symphony and, at some point you must listen to the original version on Chandos (Hickox) which contains some exquisite music which VW later excised from the score.
Lovely story, read with great pleasure. :D The empty horizon of Zeeland filled with the sound of Vaughan Williams' Ninth, back in the 1970s... ::) My own first encounter with the Ninth came later in the decade, but in a similar landscape. I remember vividly that our Radio 4 broadcasted all of his symphonies, probably Boult's second cycle, in the Summer of 1978. And I hurried back home after school on my bike, 11 kilometres (sorry: 7 miles) through a similar type of "polder" (your "deserted fields") just in time to hear the mysterious Finale of the Ninth, but too late for the first three movements. For a couple of years, that was the only part of the Ninth I knew, since I could only afford to buy an LP with it (Previn's) in the Spring of 1981.
Well, those were the days. 8)
BTW, there's a literary equivalent to your nostalgic memories of Zeeland. In 1962, William Golding wrote about his sailing trip across the Channel to Zeeland, for the Holiday magazine, reprinted among his collection of essays in `A Moving Target'. His observations on the landscape and its people remind me of your account - might be fun to read them (for me, they are). :)
for good reason too. Composers have to have the courage to cut even exquisite music when it's out of place, makes the music too long, or obscures the structure. RVW had that courage.
I think I actually have the 5th symphony because I have a Telarc disc of the Tallis Fantasia with RPO/Previn which also has the 5th on it. The Tallis Fantasia is the only VW piece I know very well because I once performed it with my chamber group in Berlin. There is a chance I might still have a copy of the recording of the concert (every time I am reminded of this, I could hit my head against the wall because when I last came across the tape, I think that was when I packed for moving to the US 5 years ago, I didn't set it aside but packed it up with other stuff...).
Anyway, when I listened to the 5th, I didn't find much access to the music. I might buy the download of that Boult recording. I think I also have the 6th and 9th with LSO/Previn somewhere. Did Previn understand the very special "idiom"?
Did Previn understand the very special "idiom"?
Idioms aren't special, as you probably know.
It's just what's been done and passed down.
I didn't, actually. I thought a specific "idiom" is always "special" (as well as specific) because it is a distinct set of expressive and stylistic means.
The question is, what has "been done and passed down"?
I can't tell you what's "idiomatic" when it comes to VW because I don't know the music well (in fact, very little). That's why I am asking. ome experts here pointed or rather hinted at a particular idiom and some musicians' familiarity (or lack thereof) , so I want to know, what characterizes that? You said yourself that to you, Previn sounds "like an insider", what elements of his interpretations make you think that?
I just listened to the 6th symphony which was quite interesting although I wouldn't pretend that I got more than a superficial first impression. I couldn't follow the music completely. My initial reaction was like, OK, so what was your point? I am not sure I get what the music tries to express, both in musical or extra-musical (if any) dimensions. I could tell though he really liked Ravel, Nielsen, and Janáček.
Did you mean the string sound or the grunting part?
I can't tell you what's "idiomatic" when it comes to VW because I don't know the music well (in fact, very little). That's why I am asking. ome experts here pointed or rather hinted at a particular idiom and some musicians' familiarity (or lack thereof) , so I want to know, what characterizes that? You said yourself that to you, Previn sounds "like an insider", what elements of his interpretations make you think that?
I just listened to the 6th symphony which was quite interesting although I wouldn't pretend that I got more than a superficial first impression. I couldn't follow the music completely. My initial reaction was like, OK, so what was your point? I am not sure I get what the music tries to express, both in musical or extra-musical (if any) dimensions. I could tell though he really liked Ravel, Nielsen, and Janáček.
I find it very doubtful he knew very much Janáček, FWIW. In his book 'National Music' he doesn't mention the name once; when he talks about Czech music only the names of Dvorak and Smetana are found. OTOH, about a decade after the composition of VW's 6th we find Tippett writing of Jenufa with the joy and wonder of a great discovery - to paraphrase, 'I'd heard of this composer, but I didn't expect anything like this!'. If that was the case for Tippett, a younger composer as aware of 'The Repertoire' as any other British composer, I'm sure it was for VW too.
Janáček visited London only once in his life-during April-May 1926 at the time of the General Strike-at the invitation of an influential group of English musicians headed by Rosa Newmarch who, at that time, was the leading propagandist of Czech music in Britain. Others on the committee were Sir Henry Wood, Adrian Boult, Sir Hugh Allen and Vaughan Williams. Janáček’s music was then little known in England although his operas (particularly Jenůfa) were becoming increasingly popular elsewhere. In the same year as Janáček visited London, Jenůfa was played in about seventy different opera houses: the first English production, however, did not occur till thirty years later.
Re the 6th - its structure, its 'point' to use your word, was devastatingly clear to me from the first time I heard it as a youngster
(empty that is apart from the occasional Dutch airforce jet fighter
William Golding; interesting. I will look out for that. In fact I had to study Golding's novels in my first year at university. I enjoyed Lord of the Flies but found works like Pincher Martin rather heavy going. My feelings may be different now.
We were similarly exposed to them in our "polder": in those days they were Starfighters, and occasionally a Northrop 5
I enjoyed all of his novels, especially Free Fall, Rites of Passage and his unfinished The Double Tongue. I mentioned his name because I guess there might be some similarities between his interests and yours, but that's just my intuition.
Poortvliet at Tholen: never been there, but I imagine the landscape to be rather similar to where I grew up. An ideal setting for Vaughan Williams, imo. ;)
I think parts of the first movement are his answer to Gershwin's "American in Paris" $:)
I like the somewhat improvisatory, strolling nature of that music though, with lots of small surprises and unexpected turns here and there. The interesting thing is that in other sections, the same disjointedness of musical thought is there, too, with long, rambling declamations which appear to me to be more the attempt at an than an actually widely arched statement. But again, these are just first impressions. I have a feeling this performance isn't as coherent as it could (and should) be. A lot of phrase turns aren't really shaped, they just happen, and there are no special inflections in most of these places. So I have the feeling that the conductor doesn't have an overall concept, he seems to shape the music a little bit as it goes along, but many of these phrase turns appear to surprise him, too, as some passages sound rather awkward.
I find this a most surprising link!
I think parts of the first movement are his answer to Gershwin's "American in Paris" $:) I like the somewhat improvisatory, strolling nature of that music though, with lots of small surprises and unexpected turns here and there. The interesting thing is that in other sections, the same disjointedness of musical thought is there, too, with long, rambling declamations which appear to me to be more the attempt at an than an actually widely arched statement. But again, these are just first impressions. I have a feeling this performance isn't as coherent as it could (and should) be. A lot of phrase turns aren't really shaped, they just happen, and there are no special inflections in most of these places. So I have the feeling that the conductor doesn't have an overall concept, he seems to shape the music a little bit as it goes along, but many of these phrase turns appear to surprise him, too, as some passages sound rather awkward.
(apart from the Starfighter, or whatever it was !).
This suddenly brings back my memory of listening to VW's London symphony for the first time - the 'jaunty' (Mellers) second subject of the first movement also reminded me of Gershwin (I didn't know Elgar's Cockaigne, then, or Walton's Portsmouth Point, which inhabit some of the same world).
But it's just got to be some kind of English or Scottish folk song. Is this the theme with the syncopation in the first bar? (sol-la---do-re---mi----sol) The 5th-8th bars of it sound like "Loch Lomond". A lot of themes in this movement sound like folk songs.
IIRC the only genuine folk songs quoted in VW symphonies are to be found buried somewhere in the scherzo of the Sea Symphony. In general he doesn't use folk songs as source material in works that aren't arrangements.
But it's just got to be some kind of English or Scottish folk song. Is this the theme with the syncopation in the first bar? (sol-la---do-re---mi----sol) The 5th-8th bars of it sound like "Loch Lomond". A lot of themes in this movement sound like folk songs.
I don't think Gershwin is right. The London Symphony premiered in 1914, An American in Paris in 1928.
(and certainly not with Mahler or Strauss, who by comparison compose like schoolboys eager to please their instructor)
I find it very doubtful he knew very much Janáček, FWIW.
I wasn't talking about the London Symphony (which I only heard once a long time ago, incidentally, in London, and which I might listen to next - I like London, have been there many times and actually lived there for a few months at on point).
That's a surprisingly silly comparison. I usually avoid these comparisons anyway since I don't see much point in it, although it is sometimes interesting to compare how different composers work with similar material or ideas. If you have to make that comparison, what you said really doesn't make sense since in their time, both Mahler and Strauss (pre-WWI) were much more innovative than VW appears to me to have been (I don't know enough of the music yet to have a more pronounced opinion about that, obviously), and, this is easily overlooked because they are so immensely popular composers today, also much more controversial and much less compromising.
In fact, when I listen to this piece (VW's 6th) what kind of puts me off is a sense of complacency that the music has for me, not self-confidence with itself after having gone through a long process of refinement and self-criticism, but simply lack of critical review. It sounds to me as if he simply put everything in that he came up with and didn't even bother much to look into how some of the material (like the tatata in the second movement) could have been developed or employed more effectively.
I think it's very obvious that he knew the Sinfonietta, if you listen carefully to the first movement (e.g. about 1'30 into it, but also in other places). It's also obvious that he knew Bartók well (see the epilogue of the 6th symphony). And that's basically OK, all composers work from what has been before them, process it and make the material their own and (hopefully) original musical language. In this piece though I simply had the déjà-vu (or rather déjà-ecouté) way too much for comfort. Rather like with the other well known Williams.
His innovations show themselves in less obvious ways than those which go into the grand Hegelian narrative of classical music - no enormous contributions to the art of orchestration, no increase in density or complexity of rhythm or harmony. They are subtle, but they are very powerful.
I've got the highest respect for your listening skills which far surpass mine in most ways - but I can't see how that rapped-out rhythm could be used more effectively than it is. It doesn't need to be developed or extended, beyond the increase in dynamic intensity that we find - its insistence and threatening banality seem to me to be the whole point, and VW has found a wonderful musical image here.
It's tempting to try to 'place' an unknown (to you) composer by comparing him to other, sometimes more internationally famous, ones. But, as Luke says, Vaughan Williams is utterly individual, once you know him. Of course he has been influenced (what artist hasn't?), but his processes and procedures are his own, and the 'virgin' listener must try to judge those on their own merits.
That's a surprisingly silly comparison. I usually avoid these comparisons anyway since I don't see much point in it, although it is sometimes interesting to compare how different composers work with similar material or ideas.
It is very possible that he heard the Sinfonietta (though not much else), but I can't for the life of me hear a trace of it in the 6th, nor anywhere else in VW. (In fact, there are very few composers in which I can hear the influence of Janacek). At about 1'30 into my recording is a passage which reminds me of Holst
Although in this particular case, it is very hard to avoid that because a lot of the material is more than just "influenced".
Please read my posts before replying to them!
Please explain further.
this is precisely where the Fifth scores so heavily - paradise isn't reached until the end; and the gorgeousness of earlier moments is never fully stable until then. The first movement has this undertow of conflict - seen right at the opening between pure D major (the horns) and the modal implications of the underlying C; the whole movement is nagged at by this modal and chromatic ambiguity, like a Blakean worm in the rose - the development section is haunted by those baleful semitonal incantations which expand into a battering figure. The movement ends with the same C/D ambiguity it started with. Classic stuff, the sonata principle used as a vehicle for a clash of tonalities but also tonal types, the whole thing suggesting VWs perpetual concern with 'paradise' and 'fallen man'. The scherzo has similar concerns, I think, almost like a kind of perverted version of the first movement, whirring along at breakneck pace with increasing metrical complexity and conflict, eventually reaching those vicious, cruel brass outbursts. It is in the ritualistic third movement that things finally take a positive turn, but this movement needs to go through a tense fire at its heart before it can reach the balm of the coda. Full-on diatonic tonality is only reached in the last movement - paradise attained! - reaching real radiance in the polyphony of the coda.
Now, though, based on that one listen, you're all of a sudden implying that VW has lifted material (with the dark phrase 'more than just "influenced" '). Why the sudden up-grade of the charge sheet?
Well, you might think that's all a load of crap, and you may be right
The BBC televised the Proms Concert anniversary tribute last night. I just caught Symphony 9. It may be available on their podplayer (or whatever it's called for a week)
But only for UK residents. :'(
I said more than just influenced, not lifted. Please don't twist my words.
I actually thik that's quite interesting, and something to think about. It will definitely be a while anyway before I form more of an actual own opinion than these first impressions I shared here.
Glad you think so, and also glad you are keeping an open mind on VW. Not, as you may think, because I'm a particularly avid fan of his - actually, I love a lot of his music and think that he attained a fascinating and unique style, but he's not a main area of interest for me and I know nothing about him compared to others on this thread. No, I'm simply pleased that you're keeping an open mind because he is worth discovering, he does offer real rewards and insights to the listener. if possible, I would suggest that you take it on trust from those here who know their VW that he's worth it, and that he's an original, and try not to hear him 'in terms of' other composers - an understandable habit, which we probably all share when listening to a new-to-use composer, but not really a helpful one.
Glad you think so, and also glad you are keeping an open mind on VW. Not, as you may think, because I'm a particularly avid fan of his - actually, I love a lot of his music and think that he attained a fascinating and unique style, but he's not a main area of interest for me and I know nothing about him compared to others on this thread. No, I'm simply pleased that you're keeping an open mind because he is worth discovering, he does offer real rewards and insights to the listener. if possible, I would suggest that you take it on trust from those here who know their VW that he's worth it, and that he's an original, and try not to hear him 'in terms of' other composers - an understandable habit, which we probably all share when listening to a new-to-use composer, but not really a helpful one.
I think that you are either tuned in to the Vaughan Williams idiom (whatever that is)
Yes, whatever that is. What had made me interested was when I asked the question, what is that actually, and I was surprised by how little real feedback that question triggered.
I think there isn't much of a special "idiom" there, just a lot of collected musical material. There are many composers with wildly varying styles whose music immediately makes a striking impression, one way or another. This music leaves me with the feeling that in order to get 5 minutes worth of really good material, I have to sit through 45 minutes of musical blabla. I rarely ever have that feeling with other music, even music that doesn't appeal to me or that I don't "get".
The funny thing is, I normally don't get into comparing music and composers as much as most people do (see the many replies here who inferred comparisons I would never have thought of, and, of course, all the endless threads and polls here, like "Wagner or Wiener Schnitzel"?). I think I get a lot of the historical connections and vectors of influences which connect all musical styles, but when I listen to this music, I have the feeling a lot that I have heard something similar before, but more to the point and more distinct than what I am hearing right now.
* wasn't sure because there was obviously antagonism between you and the one you originally asked about the issue and because, simply going by your posting history, I'm afraid there's always the suspicion that you're simply angling for an argument.
(If I wasn't making that attempt, I wouldn't be taking the time to write lengthy posts like this)
I wasn't denigrating Mahler, just pointing out he's pompous and hollow, the exact opposite of RVW. ;DI trust the smiley indicates that the irony here is intentional...? Your ridiculous claim is more likely to get a rise out of Mahler fanboys on a Mahler thread.
I trust the smiley indicates that the irony here is intentional...? Your ridiculous claim is more likely to get a rise out of Mahler fanboys on a Mahler thread.
Ernie's correct about this, I think. VW's music is completely different in this respect. Formally speaking, his symphonism is not like Mahler's. But that is because he thoroughly understood what he was doing, and knew that the roots of his style implied formal structures unlike Germanic models. Which is really what all the below is about, too:
First, remember that I don't claim that VW made enormous advances for the general state of future music. I'm not going to make extravagant claims that he invented x or was the first to do y, where x and y are major features of music after him - but then, not many composers did. VW's discoveries are small-scale, but profound, and influenced the generation of British composers who followed him - in fact, they made this music possible. The following is an attempt to explain something of what I mean, but, as you can see, it's wordy. The trouble with these subtle innovations is that they don't fit into easy definitions! I quickly stop saying what VW's contribution was, and then go on to expound upon the hows and whys. But then I expect you appreciate more rather than less.
IMO perhaps the most important thing VW did was to understand the aesthetic or metaphysical implications of modality, and therefore how it could be integrated into (for instance) symphonic structures. In the finest VW modality isn't decorative, or a surface harmonic feature - it becomes structural in the deepest sense. It and its implications are thoroughly understood. The book by Mellers which I mentioned has a great deal to say on this issue, which helped me to realise quite how profoundly 'right' VW's treatment of modality, diatonicism and chromaticism is - but I have no idea how conscious VW was of the sort of things Mellers postulates. Possibly a great deal; possible not at all.
Mellers links the modality of the English Renaissance (c.f. the Tallis portions of the Tallis Fantasia) and of English folk music (c.f the solo viola tune that unfolds in the centre of the Tallis Fantasia) to the world of those pre-Enlightenment, pre-Enclosure times: the lack of sharpened leading notes etc leads to a floating music, a music in which the functional, time-directed progress from Chord A to Chord B of diatonicism is on the contrary left unemphasized. Modality, being thus relatively non-directional, is not ideally suited to the teleology of the traditional symphony. Which is why, I suppose, modality in most pre-VW symphonies is decorative rather than operational at a deeper level.
Mellers views VW as a 'double man', one caught between various postions - urban+rural, Christian+agnostic etc. - and this duality is clear in the way 'timeless' modality confronts 'teleological' diatonicism, most obviously in the sweet-painful clash of the false relation. As you know, traditional harmony explains this as a clash between two forms of a note - say, C and C# - when two lines following the rules of voice-leading but moving in contrary directions happen to contradict each other. Mellers, though, takes this a step further - the pain of the false relation derives from this metaphysical clash of types: the ancient and freely-floating (rural...) and the modern and directed (urban...)
Well, you might think that's all a load of crap, and you may be right, though I think it (as Mellers writes about it, anyway) is one of the most penetrating bits of music writing I've read. And of course, as I said, VW may have thought no such thing anyway - if you don't agree, try not to tar him with the brush you want to apply to Mellers! But the point is that VW's music does operate with this kind of thing, this duality between modality and diatonicism, with all that entails, in the background. His 5th symphony - the echt-VW symphony, IMO - is a beautiful example. We had a great discussion of it starting here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6037.msg144416.html#msg144416) on an old VW thread - read on a page or two to read more about Mellers' theory. I managed to describe it a bit more lucidly back then! In any case, what I said about the 5th symphony then was the following - I didn't play up the modality issue back then particularly because I wasn't having this discussion with you!:
Well, now, this deep connection between the behaviour of notes and of voice-leading and the aesthetics underpinning the music is truly rare, I think. A composer who is able to understand the full implications, structural and aesthetic, of the harmony and modality he uses, whether consciously or subconsciously, has discovered something of value, and I think this is perhaps VW's main 'discovery', if you like. Certainly, as I said, it's impossible to imagine so much later British music without this discovery. Along with a host of smaller figures, Tippett, to speak of a major figure, is a true inheritor of this aspect of VW's writing.
Well, I don't see a need to denigrate Mahler in order to praise VW, but I do think that M's use of the term 'blabla' is both unnecessary and incorrect! I've rarely heard full-length symphonies as tightly-knit as VW 4-6, and there's certainly no hint of diffuseness in any of them. Every note counts, every phrase means something and also leads you somewhere else equally vital - and that's why, listening to them, I always feel that these symphonies are a lot shorter than they actually are. That's something VW does share with Nielsen and Sibelius, I think.
Only trying to get a rise out of the Mahler fanboy around here.Your sense of humor is so dry, Thomas, that it goes over the heads of many. Wit, however, must hit its target, and in this case you've missed by a mile. Nice try, though. ;D
... Oops!
I find the ending of the 9th symphony laughable, like a bad joke, a Schickele-type parody - but my feeling is that it is supposed to be somehow "grand".
I prefer composers who actually have some degree of self-criticism and who don't think that everything they come up with has to go on the page. Composers who develop and refine and concentrate their material. Have you ever heard the first version of Sibelius' 5th? It has most of the great musical ideas that the revised version has, plus a lot of hollow musical filler material. Then Sibelius withdrew the symphony and boiled it down to the concise but truly epic masterwork it now is. I don't have that sense of compelling musical argument when I listen to VW's music at all. There are lots of nice sounds, and some interesting phrase turns here and there, and a lot of random stuff in between.
Just to pick up on this - that would show a surprising lack of perceptiveness, I'd say, though the type of mishearing this suggests does help to show why you're not connecting with VW. It's pretty clear to me, in all sorts of ways, that the end of # 9 is anything but grand. There is a long-striven for E major chord, fff, yes - but it's arrived at in a deliberately perfunctory manner, imposed forcibly on the Phrygian lines preceding it and still undercut by the baleful Phrygian saxophones from the first movement. The chord tries again and again to assert itself, but eventually it fades away. I find it an extraordinary ending,
the sweet-painful clash of the false relation. As you know, traditional harmony explains this as a clash between two forms of a note - say, C and C# - when two lines following the rules of voice-leading but moving in contrary directions happen to contradict each other.
a phenomenon which is particularly characteristic of English Renaissance music. RVW would have been especially keen to pick up on that.
I think Mellers has a special talent for making anything he talks about sound unbearbly pompous, but I don't let him affect my reaction to RVW.
He uses different modes with great consistency - the Phrygian for this sort of music, the Mixolydian for that, and so on. And he uses diatonicism, pentatonicism and chromaticism with the same 'rightness'. There is as much logic in his use of the various modes as there is in (say) Bruckner's use of major and minor (I'm not comparing in any other respect, and Bruckner's name is pulled at random), and so the modes and their relationships take on a force equivalent to that between major and minor in earlier music. Hear that Phrygian pull at the beginning of the 9th, and its continuation into the parallel chord motive of the saxophones? That dark, ominous use of the Phrygian semitone is treated with great logicality, going to to inflect/infect the harmony throughout the movement, leading to constant major-minor ambiguities that likewise inflect/infect the music even when it moves into aeolian, major and lydian modes. This is wonderful symphonic thinking, a perfect reconciliation of two things - modality and development - that really oughtn't go together!
And this "rightness", because it belongs to RVW and not to the main line of tonal development, will always be contested to an even greater extent than other composers, at least outside the avant-garde. In fact, I think this shows that it isn't just the avant-garde that raises the question of how to judge music that doesn't exist comfortably within a framework.
Tremendous posts , Luke. I wish I could read them as well as you write them.Yes, thank you so much, Luke, for taking the time to offer these thoughtful and very helpful analyses. I will try to digest the points you make and keep them in mind the next time I listen to RVW, a composer whom I like but haven't really understood yet, even in my limited, non-expert, and far-from-musically-sophisticated way.
I think there's a lot to this. And I'm probably not alone in thinking 'Havergal Brian' when I read it!
Yes, thank you so much, Luke, for taking the time to offer these thoughtful and very helpful analyses. I will try to digest the points you make and keep them in mind the next time I listen to RVW, a composer whom I like but haven't really understood yet, even in my limited, non-expert, and far-from-musically-sophisticated way.
No, you're not... ;)Of course not. That's the case for Sibelius, Bax, RVW, and so on...in other words, virtually every artist who expresses a truly distinctive voice that expands the framework, whether with party hats and full-page ads in the Times or with somewhat less fanfare and grandiosity.
I think I'd better stay away from Mellors, and see if I can find the Kennedy book and try harder this time.
I read the Mellers 14 years ago right after the Kennedy, which is very hands-on and perceptive. After that, the Mellers (we're talking about the ''Vision of Albion'' thingee here?) seemed like one big waffle, very repetitive in its effort to drive home very few points by "examining" a lot of different works.
Generally though, symphonies 4-6 are considered the greatest.
I have ordered a full cycle of the symphonies.
I can see they all have their ... downs
Thanks for all the detailed replies. I didn't have time to read through all of them, however, the first reply to my last post by sound67, a self-declared VW expert, already confirmed what I had suspected, namely that VW's music can apparently only be appreciated by comparing it to more famous composers of his era, and putting these down. But I am not interested in that. I am only interested in music which stands on its own. Apparently, VW's music doesn't.
According to several people here, it only gains status as some kind of anti-thesis to composers like Mahler and Strauss, and others. Funny, I am not even into Mahler that much right now, in fact, I have been tired of and taking a break from his music for a long time now and wanted to explore music which is radically different and which offers me contrasting perspectives on how musical material can be sourced, used, and developed to make coherent, relevant statements which stand on their own. That does not seem to be the case here with VW. According to sound67, being a trained musician also stands in the way of appreciating his music. I do not know of any other composer where that is the case. In fact, understanding music from the point of view of a trained musician usually enhances enjoyment of just about any kind of musical style. Since that is not the case here, I think I will just pass and spend my time better exploring the music of more relevant composers than this marginal English phenomenon, like VW's teacher Ravel from whom I have never heard a single bar of music, be it orchestral, chamber music, or songs, which did not deeply fascinate and intrigue me. The only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence? Why do even English musicians prefer to perform the music of such composers that their local heroes, like VW, get compared to by the "experts"? Why is his music performed far less even in England than any given composer - and I mean any, even the more marginal figues included - from the standard canon of French - German - Austrian - Czech - Russian composers? Wy does it not stand on its own, but only as a negative comparison to these by pseudo-intellectuals?
Enough talking for today, I just listened to VW 5 (and its erotic counterpart, Flos Campi). My word, what a piece that symphony is - surely VW's most perfect symphony, no? No more theory or metaphysics for now - it's just damned beautiful, compelling, lucid, perfectly imagined and perfectly formed. And - let's get down to brass tacks - is that not one of the most sublime slow movements ever composed!? ;D ;)
Ahhh, here we go again. And why wouldn't we ... 0:)
A Sea Symphony: Boult-Decca, Boult-EMI (it always boils down to Boult-only for me)
London Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Haitink-EMI, Handley-EMI-LPO (the earlier one), Arwel-Hughes-ASV, Barbirolli-Dutton
Pastoral Symphony: Boult-Decca, Previn-RCA, Thomson-Chandos
4th Symphony: Berglund-EMI, Thomson-Chandos, Vaughan Williams-Dutton
5th Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI, Hickox-Chandos (his only really fine one), Barbirolli-EMI (not the earlier Barbirolli-Dutton)
6th Symphony: A.Davis-Teldec (HIS only great one), Handley-EMI-RLPO (not the LPO this time), Berglund-EMI (just re-released), Abravanel-Silverline(DVD-A)
Sinfonia Antartica: Barbirolli-EMI, Haitink-EMI, Previn-RCA
8th Symphony: Handley-EMI, Boult-Decca
9th Symphony: Slatkin-RCA, Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI
The Hickox-Chandos "London" of course is a special case. On interpretive grounds, I do not rate it very highly (in a review back then I found it too "Elgarian"), but of course it's a worthwile addition to the RVW discography, if only to prove RVW was right.
700+ replies, closing in on 19,000 page views. Uncle Ralph isn't doing badly for a composer whose music "does not stand on its own" ;)
Thomas
Ever since I asked about VW's "idiom" about two weeks ago, most of the posts regarding that were just personal attacks and what you probably would call jokes, so I am convinced now that there isn't really much more to the subject.
Thanks for all the detailed replies. I didn't have time to read through all of them, however, the first reply to my last post by sound67, a self-declared VW expert, already confirmed what I had suspected, namely that VW's music can apparently only be appreciated by comparing it to more famous composers of his era, and putting these down. But I am not interested in that. I am only interested in music which stands on its own. Apparently, VW's music doesn't.
…already confirmed what I had suspected, namely that VW's music can apparently only be appreciated by comparing it to more famous composers of his era, and putting these down. But I am not interested in that. I am only interested in music which stands on its own. Apparently, VW's music doesn't…..According to sound67, being a trained musician also stands in the way of appreciating his music. I do not know of any other composer where that is the case. In fact, understanding music from the point of view of a trained musician usually enhances enjoyment of just about any kind of musical style. Since that is not the case here, I think I will just pass and spend my time better exploring the music of more relevant composers than this marginal English phenomenon
The only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence? Why do even English musicians prefer to perform the music of such composers that their local heroes, like VW, get compared to by the "experts"? Why is his music performed far less even in England than any given composer - and I mean any, even the more marginal figues included - from the standard canon of French - German - Austrian - Czech - Russian composers? Wy does it not stand on its own, but only as a negative comparison to these by pseudo-intellectuals?
The only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence?In your world? I don't know. I like some stuff of VW and Bax pretty much.
We agree on quite a few and I could have added the earlier Handley London Symphony on EMI. Must listen to the Thomson No 2 and No 4.
There's a Portugese recording of one of the RVW symphonies that is supposed to be very good, but I keep forgetting which symphony and conducted by whom? Does anybody know? ???
Thomas
Another thank you here Luke - truly great posts... I'm going to have to listen through Symphonies 3-6 again.
You say that the fifth is his most perfect, but I'm sure you've said that the sixth represents the pinnacle of his Symphonic thinking too. I guess this could be a subtle difference.
For me No 6 is the greatest as it combines the lyricism of No 5 with the violence of No 4, to create an absolutely compelling synthesis. It is also oddly disturbing and compassionate at the same time, which is also part of its greatness. The String Quartet No 2 is an interesting precursor to Symphony No 6.
Never heard of this. Sounds really interesting. Do you like Braga Santos? His symphs 1-4 definitely have echoes of Vaughan Williams.
Thanks, M. Against all my better judgement, I took your request for information on VW’s idiom seriously...
I agree - that's why I see the 6th as the culmination of the sequence (rather as Brian 10 is to 8 and 9!). When I use the word 'perfect' of the 5th I'm doing so in a specific way, trying to describe its special qualities. In any case, they are both supremely wonderful symphonies!
I agree with what you say about Brian too, although No 8 is probably my favourite.
We badly need a professional recording of No 10, which is a magnificent work. I was lucky to find the old Unicorn CD some time back.
Inspired by this thread I have at last watched Tony Palmer's RVW documentary O thou transcendent (thanks to, lately rather absent, Thom).
All in all I find this an excellent introduction to RVW's life and work. You get a strong sense of the scale of the man's achievement and you cannot but admire him personally, too - a great and eminently sane human being, but touched by the revelatory madness common to all real poets, whether in words or music. My love for both the man and his music has increased markedly.
There is a lot of music in this documentary, which is a joy. Also very nice, for me, was seeing people I have long known only as a name and/or a voice, like Stephen Johnson, Imogen Holst and Evelyn Barbirolli. The one main criticism I have to make is the use of horrific footage to go with some of VW's more tragic and dark utterances. I thought it bordered on the obscene. We don't need graphic instances of human cruelty or suffering to know that Vaughan Williams knew about this, too. It seemed to reduce Vaughan Williams to a sort of Current Affairs composer. A grave mistake.
But, as I said - an excellent introduction. The other, BBC, documentary, The Passions of Vaughan Williams, complements it very well.
Mine too! 10 is the conclusion, but I've always adored 6 the most.
with a good recording, this could be revealed to be 8's equal
Interesting views Johan, I totally agree about the grotesquely incongruous newsreel images which were juxtaposed with Symphony 9.
There is an entertainingly furious exchange of letters going on at the moment in the Journal of the VW Society over the Palmer documentary. It is not like here, where we all have so much respect for each others' views ;D
Found it: http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2402
It was discussed on some other board. Never been able to get my hands on it.
Thomas
I wonder if disappointingly staid as a phrase is found much in the company of Ken Russell . . . ?
You mean 8.
I mean, I typed that post in a furious hurry! Dishwasher started to leak all over the kitchen floor.... :o :o
Staid isn't. Hence Jeffrey's disappointment. ;)
Oh yes! I loved those mad Mahler and Tchaikovsky films. His tribute to the sculptor Gaudia-Brzeska "Savage Messiah", is actually a v good film.
Thanks for all the detailed replies. I didn't have time to read through all of them, however, the first reply to my last post by sound67, a self-declared VW expert, already confirmed what I had suspected, namely that VW's music can apparently only be appreciated by comparing it to more famous composers of his era, and putting these down. But I am not interested in that. I am only interested in music which stands on its own. Apparently, VW's music doesn't.
According to several people here, it only gains status as some kind of anti-thesis to composers like Mahler and Strauss, and others. Funny, I am not even into Mahler that much right now, in fact, I have been tired of and taking a break from his music for a long time now and wanted to explore music which is radically different and which offers me contrasting perspectives on how musical material can be sourced, used, and developed to make coherent, relevant statements which stand on their own. That does not seem to be the case here with VW. According to sound67, being a trained musician also stands in the way of appreciating his music. I do not know of any other composer where that is the case. In fact, understanding music from the point of view of a trained musician usually enhances enjoyment of just about any kind of musical style. Since that is not the case here, I think I will just pass and spend my time better exploring the music of more relevant composers than this marginal English phenomenon, like VW's teacher Ravel from whom I have never heard a single bar of music, be it orchestral, chamber music, or songs, which did not deeply fascinate and intrigue me. The only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence? Why do even English musicians prefer to perform the music of such composers that their local heroes, like VW, get compared to by the "experts"? Why is his music performed far less even in England than any given composer - and I mean any, even the more marginal figues included - from the standard canon of French - German - Austrian - Czech - Russian composers? Wy does it not stand on its own, but only as a negative comparison to these by pseudo-intellectuals?
You relentlessly scold posters here for not replying to your demand that they define the V-W idiom, then when extremely thoughtful replies are posted, you don't have time to read them, but find that your lack of appreciation of V-W after listening to a few recordings is evidence of a deficiency in the British nation? What petulant nonsense!Remind you of anyone you know? ;D
Remind you of anyone you know? ;D
I know all 32 symphonies almost by heart, and I can't really choose a favourite. There are beauties everywhere.
You are referring to yourself, I assume?Wrong again...but then why spoil your perfect record? ;D
I wonder if disappointingly staid as a phrase is found much in the company of Ken Russell . . . ?Saw this belatedly, Karl. Not only amusing, but set me to wondering what a Ken Russell RVW bioflick might be like. :o
That, of course, is horse shit from first to last
I only have 4 of the symphonies in score, and three of those were gifts from Holland ;); in addition to these, I think Johan has two or three more scores.
I have scores (some of them were absurdly expensive) of the Piano Music, Violin Concerto and symphonies 3, 7, 8, 10, 11, 21 and 22.
Not the Gothic? Surely you have that one - it's the only one that's easy to get hold of!
And wth some very nice nudity from Helen Mirren, long before she became Queen of England ;D
Sarge
My favourite recordings:
A Sea Symphony: Boult/LPO
A London Symphony: Barbirolli/Hallé (Dutton), Hickox/LSO (original 1913 version)
A Pastoral Symphony: Boult/LPO
Symphony No 4: Bernstein/NY Phil, Vaughan Williams/BBC (Naxos)
Symphony No 5: Menuhin/RPO, Haitink/LPO
Symphony No 6: Davis/BBC
Symphony 7: Boult/LPO, Haitink/LPO, Previn/LSO
Symphony No 8: Barbirolli/Hallé (Dutton), Haitink/LPO
Symphony No 9: Haitink/LPO, Bakels/Bournemouth
Sarge
Thanks, M. Against all my better judgement, I took your request for information on VW’s idiom seriously, and took the time to wrote you several lengthy posts on it, as well as on trying to correct some of your misunderstandings about the roots of VW’s style. But, of course, and as I suspected, it turns out that what I wrote doesn’t really fit with the way you wanted this discourse to go
Why all this upsetness? I said thanks for all the replies, but I simply totally lost interest in the subject before I got to reading all of them when I started reading and the very first post was yet another of those silly comparisons. I hadn't even thought of comparing and "measuring" VW against Mahler. I am just tired, tired, tired to death of all these silly comparisons. If it doesn't seem possible to discuss somebody's music without putting a lot of other composers down, then I am not interested in the discussion.
Well, at least you clearly read my last long post in reply to you
and you'll notice if you read it that in the next post I immediately pointed out that bashing Mahler isn't necessary in order to praise VW
I thought I made the reason for my 'upsetness' pretty clear, so I won't go into it again.
No comment on the rest.
(and remember, Russia, unlike Britain, really won their part of the war).
Needn't be OT, if we can wrest it towards VW's happily non-jingoistic Song of Thanksgiving, commissioned by the BBC in 1943 as "a work to be performed when Hitler's Germany is defeated". Indicative of VW, the composer who was active in his support for the humane treatment of German POWs IIRC, the text he selected from Kipling is full of forgiveness rather than triumph or gloating.
Teach us delight in simple things,
and mirth that has no bitter springs,
forgiveness free of evil done,
and love to all men 'neath the sun.
I hadn't even thought of comparing and "measuring" VW against Mahler. I am just tired, tired, tired to death of all these silly comparisons. If it doesn't seem possible to discuss somebody's music without putting a lot of other composers down, then I am not interested in the discussion.
Good point and nicely brought back to VW!
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:Stout? Isn't that a beer? I wouldn't worry about the meaning since he or she is most likely drunk when he/she wrote it.
Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.
I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?
Needn't be OT, if we can wrest it towards VW's happily non-jingoistic Song of Thanksgiving, commissioned by the BBC in 1943 as "a work to be performed when Hitler's Germany is defeated". Indicative of VW, the composer who was active in his support for the humane treatment of German POWs IIRC, the text he selected from Kipling is full of forgiveness rather than triumph or gloating.
Teach us delight in simple things,
and mirth that has no bitter springs,
forgiveness free of evil done,
and love to all men 'neath the sun.
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:
Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.
I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:
Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.
I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?
The only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence?
It is part of Psalm 2. Look here:
http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Psalm_2
Examples of other translations:
1. Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD
(KING JAMES Version)
1. Why do the heathen so furiously rage together : and why do the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth stand up, and the rulers take counsel together : against the Lord, and against his Anointed.
(Book of Common Prayer)
At least no one has yet referred to Vernon Handley as "Tod" :)
Ahh, spoiling my fun! ;D I was going to try to translate with an Elizabethan glossary (a very useful thing to have around, hehe).
I remember from my Shakespeare 'fond' means 'foolish' (Lear uses it). For the rest the text isn't that hard to understand if you know your Elizabethans... More or less. ;)
Yes, you're correct in your interpretation of my confused signals! I think the 5th is a 'perfect' symphony - it has lucidity, balance, integration, flow, magnificent material, a marvellous sense of musical symbolism, a compelling spiritual argument clearly expressed in musical (modal, rhythmic, melodic, intervallic, motivic, symbolic, textural, instrumental) terms.
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:
Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.
I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?
Peculiar, isn't it? To our ears, the music hardly "means" this text, where it wonderfully suits "I heard the voice of Jesus say . . . ."
In short, M, that archaic hymn-verse rhetorically wonders why the world resists God's work and agent of Redemption.
For Addison's complete verse, see: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/w/r/wriftbod.htm (with the music added for free, in a superb performance). ;)
As far as I know, the words Vaughan Williams really had in mind, are those from a hymn from 1712 by Joseph Adison on the same (Thomas Tallis) melody, and especially its first line: "When rising from the bed of death" (I've always been humming these words with the music and they fit rather well, in all respects ;-) :'( :) 8)
In case no one's mentioned it, 'The Passions of Vaughan Williams' is on BBC in less than 15 minutes. I'd record it, but don't have access to the equipment at the moment. If anyone else was tempted to, though..... ;) ;) ;)
I wonder how possible it is to rip the iPlayer version of it... The sound will probably be miserable, though.I once used this, in order to create a flash animation of what happens on my computer..
In case no one's mentioned it, 'The Passions of Vaughan Williams' is on BBC in less than 15 minutes. I'd record it, but don't have access to the equipment at the moment. If anyone else was tempted to, though..... ;) ;) ;)
London Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Haitink-EMI, Handley-EMI-LPO (the earlier one), Arwel-Hughes-ASV, Barbirolli-Dutton
Pastoral Symphony: Boult-Decca, Previn-RCA, Thomson-Chandos
4th Symphony: Berglund-EMI, Thomson-Chandos, Vaughan Williams-Dutton
5th Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI, Hickox-Chandos (his only really fine one), Barbirolli-EMI (not the earlier Barbirolli-Dutton)
9th Symphony: Slatkin-RCA, Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI
After all this Thomson listing, I am seriously considering his boxset. Thanks.
I've previously had a superficial familiarity with some of V-W's most popular pieces, and have been working my way through Boult's set of orchestral works on EMI. I've been working backwards, from symphony #9. Sad to say, the more I hear of V-W, the less impressed I am. Symphony #9 had engaging middle movements, but the outer movements struck me as wandering, having some interesting sonorities and harmonies distributed throughout, but the major plan escaped me. Symphony #8 had a wonderful first movement (variations without a theme) but the other three movements made a similar impression, interesting passages, not clear to me what the organizing principal is. Symphony #7, listened to last night, is the low point so far. Here at least I know what he is getting at, and there were passages of great beauty, but every time I'm about to get into it, there's that idiotic wind machine again. It is frustrating because a lot of V-W's interestingly dissonant harmony and counterpoint is very attractive to me, but none of it comes within a context that makes sense to me.
I get the impression that 4, 5, and 6 are considered V-W's best, and they are next on my list. I try to remain optimistic, but as things are going, it looks like I'll be keeping this set just to remind myself never to waste my money on another recording of music by V-W. If you've got the Tallis fantasy, you've got all of the V-W you need, it would appear.
Somehow I feel - and hope - that 4-6 won't disappoint. I don't have the problems you describe with 7-9, but I can understand them completely. 4-6, though, are real 'symphonic' symphonies, with the most magnificent sweep and conviction that only the best symphonies have. I hope you find that too.
OTOH, liking VW for things like the Tallis Fantasia is hardly a bad thing! That's a work that strikes a certain vein very deeply, and that explains its success (if you like it you will probably like the slow movement of the 5th particularly, but then only someone with no heart wouldn't like that one). In VW successfulness tends to indicate that he's really hit upon something special, not that he's compromised for reasons of popularity - The Lark Ascending is the other ultra-popular work which thoroughly deserves its status. In the same highly lyrical vein is the Serenade to Music - and that leads nicely back to the symphonies IMO, especially no 5.
I've previously had a superficial familiarity with some of V-W's most popular pieces, and have been working my way through Boult's set of orchestral works on EMI. I've been working backwards, from symphony #9. Sad to say, the more I hear of V-W, the less impressed I am. Symphony #9 had engaging middle movements, but the outer movements struck me as wandering, having some interesting sonorities and harmonies distributed throughout, but the major plan escaped me. Symphony #8 had a wonderful first movement (variations without a theme) but the other three movements made a similar impression, interesting passages, not clear to me what the organizing principal is. Symphony #7, listened to last night, is the low point so far. Here at least I know what he is getting at, and there were passages of great beauty, but every time I'm about to get into it, there's that idiotic wind machine again. It is frustrating because a lot of V-W's interestingly dissonant harmony and counterpoint is very attractive to me, but none of it comes within a context that makes sense to me.
I get the impression that 4, 5, and 6 are considered V-W's best, and they are next on my list. I try to remain optimistic, but as things are going, it looks like I'll be keeping this set just to remind myself never to waste my money on another recording of music by V-W. If you've got the Tallis fantasy, you've got all of the V-W you need, it would appear.
I like the idea of liking V-W, but I think that wind machine put me over the edge. The idea of listening to any more of it puts me in a bad mood. I've wanted time to listen to some Martinu, so I think the V-W set is going back on the shelf. Given how much music there is that I want to listen to and how little time I have available, it may be decades before it comes down again.
I was lucky to have picked up on RVW before I had much knowledge of other composers, so my ideas about what constitute musical development are conditioned by the example of a composer who clearly differs quite a bit. And I don't seem to have suffered any damage since I have no problem with Beethoven or Mahler or Hindemith. I'm actually a little surprised at how the stature of RVW has been elevated in recent years, though I'm certainly happy to see the recognition he's received. His music shouldn't make sense for most listeners, so what does it mean that it so often does?
If avant-gardists can eschew development entirely, why would it be "wrong" to pursue a different idea of it, unless the tonal composer is supposed to conform? Why shouldn't RVW have the same freedom as the ultras are accorded? It seems strange to me, a kind of unconscious double standard. If I complain about how some avant-gardiste doesn't make sense, that says something about my narrow-mindedness, right? But if I have the same complaint about RVW, it's assumed that the composer is to blame. Really? What I'd like to see is all composers treated with the same consideration in this respect. You don't have to like the way their music departs from what you're used to, or what you like best. If the ultramodernist can be exempted from a particular standard, then so can less radical innovators. I can see this makes a hash of qualitative judgments generally, which is no doubt part of the attraction for me, but it really explains better than anything else how we can simultaneously reward the innovator and scourge the "conservative" for their departures from what's usually accepted as orthodox. How else can you explain how it is that one of the giants of the 20th century writes music that "doesn't go anywhere" when it's clear that many highly sophisticated listeners are convinced it does? (as well as unsophisticated listeners like me, who don't understand what going anywhere is supposed to mean, other than a subjective "rightness")
Just give the 5th a spin before you do anything so hasty ;D And then move on to Martinu's stunning 4th - another radiant war-time work, for that matter.
Well, maybe that would be prudent. Do you have a favorite recording of Martinu's 4th?
Bryden Thomson's best work on records are his Nielsen and Martinu cycles, even ahead of the Vaughan Williams and the Bax.
"Vaughan Williams: A British Sibelius."
How accurate is this statement, and in what ways? I read it from a classical music magazine couple weeks ago. :)
"Vaughan Williams: A British Sibelius."
How accurate is this statement, and in what ways? I read it from a classical music magazine couple weeks ago. :)
I think 5 is VW's most Sibelian symphony - and it's dedicated to him too, 'without permission', which may be no coincidence.
BTW: The "without permission" primarily referred to the fact that at that moment in history (1943) the UK was officially at war with Finland, as it sided with Germany against the Soviet-Union (where Finnish troops were actively beleaguering Shostakovich's Leningrad) and no contacts of this kind (or any kind) were allowed.
Also a reflection of a time when one did not as a rule publish such a dedication without the dedicatee's leave . . . even in cases where the dedicatee would find the gesture fitting or even flattering.
You're right, no doubt, thanks. But again: RVW couldn't ask for permission due to the circumstances just mentioned. So, it is a kind of statement after all, as there was no obvious reason why the symphony should be dedicated to Sibelius (he didn't dedicate his other ones to Richard Strauss or Prokoviev :-) - hadn't he meant a kind of "message" too.
BTW: The "without permission" primarily referred to the fact that at that moment in history (1943) the UK was officially at war with Finland, as it sided with Germany against the Soviet-Union (where Finnish troops were actively beleaguering Shostakovich's Leningrad) and no contacts of this kind (or any kind) were allowed.
(The dedication reveals the same type of attitude towards the war as mentioned here before regarding RVW's text choice for his Thanksgiving for Victory / Song of Thanksgving.)
I think you've made a mistake starting with the last symphonies - give 4-6 a go, perhaps with someone besides Boult.
Very interesting point! Great Britain's relationship with Finland was complex. The Finns were regarded as heroes in 1939-40 during the Winter War with the Soviet Union when sympathy was directed towards 'little Finland' in her heroic struggle against the military might of Russia and there was much admiration for the way in which the Finns gave the Soviet Army such a hammering. At that time of course Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were bound by the terms of the Ribbentropp-Molotov pact.
My father-who had met the Finnish President, Marshal Mannerheim, in 1937-used to tell me that 'Finlandia' was played a lot at that time in Britain as a mark of solidarity with the Finns. My father played the timpani in an amateur orchestra and always found the opening of 'Finlandia'-with its drum rolls-fiendishly difficult to get right!
Then Finland allied itself(reluctantly) with Hitler in the continuing struggle against Stalin and Britain declared war on Finland. Whether this led to any reduction in the amount of Sibelius's music played here I don't know but it would be interesting to find out!
I did not know that Sibelius could not speak English, Jeffrey. Had my father accepted Mannerheim's offer to arrange an introduction to Sibelius when he was in Finland in 1937 he would have had to organise an interpreter too since my father certainly couldn't speak French either :)
(If anyone is interested in the Winter War of 1939-40 there is an excellent Wikipedia article-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
Although Finland had to make peace and cede important territory at the end of the war the Finns had inflicted appalling casualties on the Red Army-a fact noted with keen interest in Berlin!)
Sorry...nothing to do with VW, I know.
The Winter War is a fascinating episode in History.
The Collected Letters of Vaughan Williams quotes Ursula VW ststing that Sibelius didn't speak English. However, I'm aware that Beecham visited Sibelius in Finland and they conversed together. Maybe Sibelius spoke some English after all ???
The Winter War is a fascinating episode in History.
OT but grimly amusing:
The Soviet commander, Vinogradov, and two of his chief officers survived the battle. When they reached the Soviet lines four days later, they were court martialed, found guilty and sentenced to death; the executions were carried out immediately. The charge was losing 55 field kitchens to the enemy.
Sibelius did not speak English (when he met Vaughan Williams they spoke in French.) The letter was typed to VW in English. VW, apparently, would have preferred something incomprehensible in Finnish, written in Sibelius's own hand!
OT but grimly amusing:
The Soviet commander, Vinogradov, and two of his chief officers survived the battle. When they reached the Soviet lines four days later, they were court martialed, found guilty and sentenced to death; the executions were carried out immediately. The charge was losing 55 field kitchens to the enemy.
I don't know what you are talking about. If a piece of music is going to last more than 10 minutes, it has to have some structure to it, or I will find it unintelligible. I don't care if it is avante-guard or pseudo-romantic like Vaughan-Williams It doesn't have to have an established structure, like theme an variations or sonata form, it can have a structure that is improvised, but it must have something. Strauss tone poems, like Tod und Verklarung or Don Juan have structure, Sibelius's Symphony #7 has structure, Schoenberg's chamber symphonies have structure. These Vaughan Williams pieces don't give me a sense that there is more to them than a succession of interesting sounds. There are interesting parts and boring parts, and the boring parts do not have any relation to the interesting parts (that I can perceive). At least in classical symphony I get the idea that the boring parts are there to lead into the interesting parts. I'd like to separate the interesting parts out and transform one of those 45 minute V-W blobs into a set of symphonic etudes lasting 7 minutes.
I'd like to separate the interesting parts out and transform one of those 45 minute V-W blobs into a set of symphonic etudes lasting 7 minutes.
I get the "grimly" part, but what do you find "amusing" here?
And you find that "amusing"?
Thomson-Scottish National Orchestra (Chandos)
Bryden Thomson's best work on records are his Nielsen and Martinu cycles, even ahead of the Vaughan Williams and the Bax.
Thomas
While I admire some of Thomson's Bax symphonies (particularly his Bax 6th, whose measured and powerful opening contrasts sharply with Lloyd-Jones's and Handley's swifter, more lighter-spirited readings - I was also vaguely disappointed with Del Mar's much-touted Lyrita recording of this) for their atmosphere and tonal weight, I find it difficult now to listen to his "November Woods" e.g. after devouring Boult's altogether more intense and dramatic version on Lyrita (possibly the greatest disc I purchased in 2007).
(http://www.lyrita.co.uk/covers/SRCD0231.jpg)
Several critics have declared Thomson's Nielsen "Inextinguishable" the best of all the recordings he made for Chandos. While this is not my favorite Nielsen work, I can say that Thomson's "Four Temperaments" and "Espansiva" compare favorably to the oft-praised Blomstedt Decca and Schoenwandt versions.
Thomas
Well, maybe that would be prudent. Do you have a favorite recording of Martinu's 4th?
Of this trio I like 8 very much, but I agree that the quality drops off a bit after the first movement.
I don't know why you're all getting worked up on the wind machine at all. Why not use one?
Because it is a crude device that just makes noise? Beethoven, Sibelius, Debussy were able to depict storms using their music. With so much music by these greats, why listen to the efforts of a ham-fisted hack that needs sound effects?Does that mean Strauss and Ravel are also ham-fisted hacks?
Does that mean Strauss and Ravel are also ham-fisted hacks?
Does that mean Strauss and Ravel are also ham-fisted hacks?
If you are referring to Strauss's Alpine, I think the storm scene with the wind-machine is a low-point, but as a relatively short, self contained episode in very long piece I find it less annoying. I don't recall hearing a wind machine in Ravel.
(I'm not sure that Tippett specifies wind machine, though - IIRC it's just 'breathing noises' that are called for - which results in an unfortunate tendency for the piece to sound like an obscene phone call)I seem to remember the Solti recording being particularly unfortunate in that regard.
I don't agree. The three remaining movements are entirely characteristic of the composer: the winds-only "Scherzo" (English Folk Song Suite, Variations for Wind Band), the strings-only slow movement (Dives and Lazarus) and the bells-and-whistles toccata. It's supposed to be a light-hearted work, which is why I have a problem with Haitink's heavy-weather approach to it. When done in the right manner (such as the Elder-Hallé performance I heard at the Proms), it's a delightful piece.
* Michael Tippett: Symphony no. 4
(I'm not sure that Tippett specifies wind machine, though - IIRC it's just 'breathing noises' that are called for - which results in an unfortunate tendency for the piece to sound like an obscene phone call)
There is also a wind machine in Don Quixote. Apart from the already mentioned pieces, I can't think of any others that use it.I think in Die Walkuere, right after the opening Prelude and where Siegmund enters Hunding's house you sometimes hear some wind effects (not sure whether they are taped or made by an actual instrument live). In any case I don't think it is in the score and frankly think it is pretty distracting.
Yes, I had a recording of that piece, probably Hickox. That is the reason that in a collection with hundreds of composers represented I don't have a single recording of a piece by Tippett. (Symphony for large orchestra a breathalyzer test.) Imbecile.Imbecile is a bit harsh, but I have to admit I don't find Tippett's music really all that interesting either.
Yes, I had a recording of that piece, probably Hickox. That is the reason that in a collection with hundreds of composers represented I don't have a single recording of a piece by Tippett. (Symphony for large orchestra a breathalyzer test.) Imbecile.
Imbecile is a bit harsh, but I have to admit I don't find Tippett's music really all that interesting either.
Because it is a crude device that just makes noise?
Beethoven, Sibelius, Debussy were able to depict storms using their music.
it follows very closely the template used by Hindemith in his Symphonia Serena, written several years before (1949 I think). I'm thinking particularly of the all-windy 2nd (scherzo-like) mvt. followed by the all-stringy slow mvt. Does anyone know if VW was deliberately following Hindy's example here?
Tippett is one of the glories of 20th century music - more honest and humane than most; more brave and nakedly revealing than any. He was an immensely original composer, writing music of the most startling generosity and beauty - but also a fine, big-hearted human being who deserves better than petty insults of this sort.
I don't know why you're all getting worked up on the wind machine at all. Why not use one?
Clearly Tippett's music is much better than it sounds.
1. It's cheesy. A symphony is supposed to be a musical work, not an IMAX Experience.
2. It's redundant. What are the singers doing if not evoking the whistling and howling of the wind?
It's neither. As I said, it occupies precisely the same sort of position as the hammer in Mahler 6 (or the breathing sounds in Tippett 4) - that is, as an extra-musical symbol of something that exists at or beyond the borders of the music proper. ... In VW 7, we have an extra-musical symbol of 'Nature' (in its rawest, most dangerous state) - and it has to be extra-musical in order to evoke that inhuman world which is far beyond, and oblivious to, human concerns. To suggest that the singers would be an acceptable substitute shows a lack of understanding of the musics' fundamental dialectic.
The voice is by definition the most human of instruments, and what VW wants here is inhumanity, or, rather, absence of humanity. He needs a shocking symbol to achieve this, something exterior to the normal range of orchestral or vocal sound. something 'other'.
*Tippett is fallible - beautifully so. It's because he's such an honest and open composer - he doesn't play safe or hedge his bets. That's why even his 'mistakes' are effective and touching. It's also why he's an easy target. for those who feel the need to have a pop at someone great.I totally agree here. Tippett's one of those few composers whom I love in part because of his mistakes, not despite them. (Berwald would be another.)
One of the 'facts of orchestration' demonstrated by the Vaughan Williams Pastoral and Sinfonia antartica (and the Nielsen Sinfonia espansiva, and I imagine the Tippett Fourth) is that un-texted vocalise makes the voice as an instrument something quite other than, well, the medium of text-delivery . . . and that, as a timbral resource, the 'range' of the voice, or of a choir, is appreciably broadened.
Luke, tried to PM you but your inbox is full.
Sarge
Sounds a bit facile to me, I'm afraid. The voice is by definition the most human of instruments, and what VW wants here is inhumanity, or, rather, absence of humanity. He needs a shocking symbol to acheive this, something exterior to the normal range of orchestral or vocal sound. somethin 'other'. This is why the wind machine is used here, and for similar reasons in Messiaen's Des Canyons.... for instance. It's only in e.g the Alpine Symphony that its use is purely literal - perhaps not even there, though I'd hesitate to make that argument.
if VW wants something inhuman, there is nothing that makes trombones, trumpets, horns, oboes, clarinets, violins, etc, more human than a wind machine. Something exterior to the normal range of orchestral sound can be a novel harmony, orchestration, etc. In the Anactica (as well as in the Alpine) it is just an imitative sound effect. It makes sense in a dramatic context (the thunder and anvils in Rheingold) but in a symphony I find it silly.
i have had those for many years, yeah... not my thing you're right.
i have had those for many years, yeah... not my thing you're right.
The fact that we are so used to 'trombones, trumpets, horns, oboes, clarinets, violins, etc', and to the human faces of their players, and to the fact that they play in an expressive manner, and that they play music which is so clearly a human construct - all of those things make these instruments human. The wind machine is a freak, an instrument we hardly ever hear, whose sound is essentially a natural one, uninflected by human harmony, or melody, or by association with human activity. Quite plainly VW wished to choose an instrument that sits totally apart from the rest of the orchestra, so as to create this striking dichotomy between the human and the inhuman - and quite plainly he succeeded, otherwise you wouldn't be making this fuss about it. You think the wind machine is out of place, and that's just what VW wanted it to be. If' he'd chosen to represent the wind with a trombone, you wouldn't be commenting - and he would clearly have failed to find an instrumental equivalent for 'the Other'.
Ratsche = rattle
AFAIK, a thundersheet = thundermachine. It is always a (very) large sheet of ( rather thin) metal rattled, shaken and /or hit by a hammer or a stick.
I've seen the Dresden Gewandhaus Orch in Strauss Alpine symph. The thundersheet was almost 2.5 meters high.
It's just that the score talks about a thunder machine, not a sheet, so I wondered if there was a difference. Or if, in fact, there is no such thing as a thunder machine and anything making an appropriate noise is acceptable.
There used to be a device which basically was a box filled with rocks that was suspended on a joint at the middle, and which could be rocked up and down like a see-saw with ropes going over pulleys. I read they have one of these at the Drottningholm Court Theater, but I have never seen one. There also used to be a thunder machine which looks similar to the wind machine and which is a drum filled with rocks and a lever to turn it. I don't know though if that is specifically what Strauss had in mind.
From this page (http://www.orchestralibrary.com/reftables/perc.html) it appears 'thunder machine' and 'thunder sheet' are different things:
Brian's handling of the other untuned percussion instruments is fairly conventional, although once again the Gothic provides a [???? something missing here ????] prescribed in Part Two, as are a thunder machine (Brian did not want the tinny thunder sheet that so often occurs and is so ineffectual) and a 'bird scare' (i.e. a football rattle - called 'scare crow' on page 184 of the published score). However, for the vast majority of his works, Brian employs a normal section in the usual manner. Thunder and wind machines turn up in Symphony no 10, and an Indian tabla in English Suite No 4,but these are exceptions.
There is no Gewandhaus in Dresden. It's in Leipzig. You have to make up your mind. Was that live or on video? With which conductor? And where are the pictures you posted from?
In the same sense, perhaps, (and trying to keep OT!) maybe VW never wrote anything finer than the Tallis Fantasia. But he wrote works which were its equal.
But what's irked me in previous posts is the eager rush to pounce on this sort of thing in order to be able to damn a great musician or reject them summarily
...if he's earned my respect in the past but a new-to-me work seems to fall short, then I will try to presume that I'm simply unequipped to follow the composer down his new path, not that he's lost the plot.
Quite plainly VW wished to choose an instrument that sits totally apart from the rest of the orchestra, so as to create this striking dichotomy between the human and the inhuman - and quite plainly he succeeded, otherwise you wouldn't be making this fuss about it. You think the wind machine is out of place, and that's just what VW wanted it to be. If' he'd chosen to represent the wind with a trombone, you wouldn't be commenting - and he would clearly have failed to find an instrumental equivalent for 'the Other'.
Is the theme in the "Wasps" overture which begins after the "waspy" introduction after about 1 minute an original theme or a quote?
The wind machine is a freak, an instrument we hardly ever hear, whose sound is essentially a natural one, uninflected by human harmony, or melody, or by association with human activity. Quite plainly VW wished to choose an instrument that sits totally apart from the rest of the orchestra, so as to create this striking dichotomy between the human and the inhuman - and quite plainly he succeeded, otherwise you wouldn't be making this fuss about it. You think the wind machine is out of place, and that's just what VW wanted it to be. If' he'd chosen to represent the wind with a trombone, you wouldn't be commenting - and he would clearly have failed to find an instrumental equivalent for 'the Other'.
For what it's worth, the notes for the recording I have say that the Overture to the Wasps does not contain any folk song quotes.
It is an utterly banal device which is used ad-nauseum in film scores, film soundtracks, stage shows, etc.
Does anyone know what the composer himself said about this? Did he say it was "symbolic"? Not sure I believe Luke's mindreading act...
Riders to the Sea was scored for a noraml small orchestra with the addition of a sea-machine - which might be considered a contradiction in terms since it represents elemental Nature, as opposed to anything man-made, let alone mechanistic. The Seventh Symphony [includes] a wind-machine. The purpose of the abnormal instruments is much the same as that of the sea-machine in Riders....now, as nature's supernatural instruments appear....this paragraph is Nature herself, not so much mimical to as oblivious of him. So the duality of sonata is manifest in a peculiarly direct from
[VW] has broken new ground, not in the fact that he uses a larger orchestra, but that he has found in sheer sonority devoid of thematic significance a means of conveying his vision and placing it within a symphonic scheme.
(I return to Mahler 6? Is the hammer only referring to Mahler's love of DIY?)
Well, I don't have access to VW's writings, but all others I can find who go into the subject in any depth at all agree with me. And I must say that an inability to hear the wind machine as doing anything more than 'imitating the wind' can only appear to be somewhat deficient in poetic sympathy. (I return to Mahler 6? Is the hammer only referring to Mahler's love of DIY?) Anyway, here's Wilfrid Mellers; I start my quotation obliquely to the subject, but you'll see why:Quote from: MellersRiders to the Sea was scored for a noraml small orchestra with the addition of a sea-machine - which might be considered a contradiction in terms since it represents elemental Nature, as opposed to anything man-made, let alone mechanistic. The Seventh Symphony [includes] a wind-machine. The purpose of the abnormal instruments is much the same as that of the sea-machine in Riders....now, as nature's supernatural instruments appear....this paragraph is Nature herself, not so much mimical to as oblivious of him. So the duality of sonata is manifest in a peculiarly direct fromMellers goes on in this way throughout his discussion of the symphony, but I'll stop there because that last point is so important - it emphasizes that VW integrates the wind machine (and the other 'magic instruments') into a purely symphonic, sonata structure, in a 'peculiarly direct form'. Too direct, it seems, for those who can't hear beyond 'it sounds like the wind'.
Michael Kennedy gives early reviews of the symphony who agree on this point, e.g.:Quote from: Frank Howes[VW] has broken new ground, not in the fact that he uses a larger orchestra, but that he has found in sheer sonority devoid of thematic significance a means of conveying his vision and placing it within a symphonic scheme.And so on. I don'thave time right now to type out more, but there are plenty. The point is, the wind-machine does sound like the wind, of course it does - and perhaps even VW himself was unsure about the suitability of this. But the symphony turns it into more than this - the dialectic which every symphony needs is in this case Man-Nature, as all critics I have read agree, and the wind-machine as an extreme example of the latter, the ultimate negation of Man, is thus perfectly well integrated into symphonic form.
I'm afraid argument from authority won't work on me. There is no evidence to assert that the wind machine sound embodies some (remarkably specific) concept of Nature - this is just metaphysical hot air. This idea might be more creditable if RVW hadn't called the work "Antartica" and appended a quote from Scott's diary - then the symphony might be seen as an allegorical treatment of the themes you have mentioned. But RVW was too specific, and the sound of the wind is just that.
Wow - 'no evidence', huh? That's quite a leap you make from the actual content of my post.
Finally, note that VW was a composer, not a critic.
I'd add though, that I don't find the concept of 'Nature/the non-human' to be 'remarkably specific'. It's a theme that has been used by composers on many occasions.
Metaphysical perhaps - a lot of music works on this metaphysical level. But that doesn't make it hot air. Your pairing of the two terms is disingenuous, but it also suggests a suspicion of or lack of sympathy with anything non-explicit which explains your difficulties with this piece.
Well, you quoted those passages as proof of your assertion, and I'm just saying they don't really constitute evidence for your point.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qoZ4sxvsL._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Music-David-Manning/dp/0195182391)
By "specific", I was referring to your phrase "the wind-machine as an extreme example of the latter, the ultimate negation of Man", which is a rather specific attribution for this sound-effect.
Sorry, I should have been clear that by "metaphysical hot air" I was referring to the deliberations of the critics, metaphysics being speculation on things that are beyond the "real" and therefore unfalsifiable. Music certainly can speak to our sense of the metaphysical - my argument is that in this case the wind machine is a redundant, extra-musical device that hinders this.
Sure, he wrote - I have plenty of articles that he wrote myself. But it isn't his job to provide commentary on his own music. What's more, when pushed to do so, he was often deliberately obfuscatory, so as to leave 'interpreting' his music to others. Which is indeed why the interpretations of others, such as the respected sources I quoted above, are the most readily-available opinions to hand.
We sometimes need to learn to trust the great composers.
I do not see that the wind machine creates a "striking dichotomy" between human and inhuman.
No, I quoted them as reinforcement that the way in which I've described the wind-machine's use - i.e not just as imitation of something specific (though also that) but as symbol of something larger and integral to the symphonic nature of the score - is the generally accepted one. And I made clear that what I posted wasn't a final answer, but a rushed gathering of a couple of available strands.
Sure, he wrote - I have plenty of articles that he wrote myself. But it isn't his job to provide commentary on his own music. What's more, when pushed to do so, he was often deliberately obfuscatory, so as to leave 'interpreting' his music to others. Which is indeed why the interpretations of others, such as the respected sources I quoted above, are the most readily-available opinions to hand.