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The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: aquablob on April 07, 2007, 07:11:59 AM

Title: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: aquablob on April 07, 2007, 07:11:59 AM
One of my personal favorite composers. The epitome of Romanticism, perhaps, and I love him for it. The piano works in particular strike a chord with me:

Carnaval, Fantasiestücke, Davidsbündlertänze, the Fantasie, Kreisleriana, Symphonic Etudes, Waldszenen, Kinderszenen, the Novelettes, Gesänge der Frühe, Concert sans orchestre, the F# minor piano sonata, the G minor piano sonata, etc. etc. etc.

What wonderful music this madman left the world! I haven't even mentioned his orchestral, chamber, and vocal music -- all of which is superb. Schumann is a master of contrast and emotional extremes. What are some of your favorites?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Harry on April 07, 2007, 07:15:47 AM
His Symphonies, and SQ, and of course his piano music. Schumann has not composed that many things I dislike.
He is much under valued, I think, and without reason.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on April 07, 2007, 07:16:21 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000002A9E.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 07, 2007, 07:22:11 AM
The earlier piano music, the chamber music (G minor piano trio is a personal favourite) and - why are they always forgotten - his LIEDER! Of which I've always fallen for the hackneyed op 39 above all (now that is the absolute epitome of verdant forest-Romanticism at its finest), but there are many other stunners too, of course.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 07:23:32 AM
Like with many other composers, I think the chamber works are grossly undervalued. The string quartets, of course, but the piano trios (try the BAT disk), piano quartet and quintet, and the violin sonatas, which are hidden gems. It goes without saying that the solo piano works are the piéce de resistance, but there is so much more to Schumann than that! :)

8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on April 07, 2007, 07:24:36 AM
........ It goes without saying that the solo piano works are the piéce de resistance, but there is so much more to Schumann than that! :)

8)

Anything in HIP here Gurn?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 07, 2007, 07:26:46 AM
It goes without saying that the solo piano works are the piéce de resistance

Solo piano works and the lieder Gurn!  >:( These are his two main areas of activity and he excelled in both more than any other. I will not be kept quiet!! ;D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: hornteacher on April 07, 2007, 07:27:39 AM
The Piano Quintet.  Also the "Spring" Symphony, just because I played it in college orchestra and enjoyed it very much (especially the horn solo in the second movement).
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 07:29:40 AM
Anything in HIP here Gurn?

I haven't run across anything in solo keyboard, but one of my very favorite symphony cycles, Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique/Gardiner, is totally HIP. They presented me with the first opportunity that I had to discover that a small orchestra and tight, precise playing, brought out the real genius of Schumann's orchestral abilities, which were all but obscured by huge, post-Romantic orchestral playing. The knock on him that he didn't know how to write for orchestra turns out to be totally without merit when you listen to an orchestra such as he actually did write for. ;)

8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 07:31:26 AM
Solo piano works and the lieder Gurn!  >:( These are his two main areas of activity and he excelled in both more than any other. I will not be kept quiet!! ;D

Shhhhhshh! Those are a secret, they must not be revealed!! :o  ;D

8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: BachQ on April 07, 2007, 07:48:25 AM
Carnaval, Fantasiestücke, Davidsbündlertänze, the Fantasie, Kreisleriana, Symphonic Etudes, Waldszenen, Kinderszenen, the Novelettes, Gesänge der Frühe, Concert sans orchestre, the F# minor piano sonata, the G minor piano sonata, etc. etc. etc.

Among those, the Symphonic Etudes is my fave . . . . . . . and I would also add the Toccata op. 7. 

But my favorite Schumann work is the A Minor Piano Concerto.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 07:51:00 AM
Among those, the Symphonic Etudes is my fave . . . . . . . and I would also add the Toccata op. 7. 

But my favorite Schumann work is the A Minor Piano Concerto.

Rec, please. A Schumann specialist says Philadelphia / Ormandy  Rudolf Serkin, which is probably the way I'll go. I have CO of Europe / Harnoncourt Argerich and surprisingly I don't care for it, it hasn't sold the piece to me yet... :(

8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brewski on April 07, 2007, 07:52:27 AM
I haven't run across anything in solo keyboard, but one of my very favorite symphony cycles, Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique/Gardiner, is totally HIP. They presented me with the first opportunity that I had to discover that a small orchestra and tight, precise playing, brought out the real genius of Schumann's orchestral abilities, which were all but obscured by huge, post-Romantic orchestral playing. The knock on him that he didn't know how to write for orchestra turns out to be totally without merit when you listen to an orchestra such as he actually did write for. ;)

8)

I really need to hear these, since I am inclined to like HIP readings in general (and like Gardiner's work), and I like all four symphonies.  Most of the versions I've heard, including Alan Gilbert and the NY Philharmonic in the Third Symphony last week, are more pumped up, but I can well imagine that they'd be effective done much leaner.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: BachQ on April 07, 2007, 08:03:36 AM
Rec, please. A Schumann specialist says Philadelphia / Ormandy  Rudolf Serkin, which is probably the way I'll go. I have CO of Europe / Harnoncourt Argerich and surprisingly I don't care for it, it hasn't sold the piece to me yet... :(

8)

Rec's:

Zimerman / Karajan (BPO / DG) (with Grieg)
Lupu / Previn (LSO) (with Grieg)

Argerich's steely interpretation is not universally admired, but I like it (also on DVD  :)).  I haven't heard the Serkin, but it's a super-budget CD, so I may soon!  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2007, 08:13:04 AM
May or not be The Key for you, Gurn, but at the price, its risk::reward profile is attractive:

Jacqueline du Pré playing the Cello Concerto, Opus 129
Barenboim playing the Introduction & Allegro appassionato, Opus 92 & the Piano Concerto, Opus 54

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/47/478958.JPG)

(I haven't listened to the Opus 54 here yet;  but both the Cello Concerto and Intro & Allo app'to are molto bello.)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 08:28:19 AM
Rec's:

Zimerman / Karajan (BPO / DG) (with Grieg)
Lupu / Previn (LSO) (with Grieg)

Argerich's steely interpretation is not universally admired, but I like it (also on DVD  :)).  I haven't heard the Serkin, but it's a super-budget CD, so I may soon!  :)

Thanks, d, the Lupu looks quite tempting. Maybe that... :)

8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 08:30:10 AM
May or not be The Key for you, Gurn, but at the price, its risk::reward profile is attractive:

Jacqueline du Pré playing the Cello Concerto, Opus 129
Barenboim playing the Introduction & Allegro appassionato, Opus 92 & the Piano Concerto, Opus 54

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/47/478958.JPG)

(I haven't listened to the Opus 54 here yet;  but both the Cello Concerto and Intro & Allo app'to are molto bello.)

Thanks, Karl. That disk would be a winner even if the piano concerto sucked, given that I have heard the DuPre concerto is really worth a listen. :)

8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Harry on April 07, 2007, 08:31:53 AM
Thanks, d, the Lupu looks quite tempting. Maybe that... :)

8)

Somehow I always had a weakness for Radu Lupu, but I never went as far to buy anything with him.
Maybe I just did not know what to buy in those days.
Matter of fact I still don't !
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Haffner on April 07, 2007, 09:39:01 AM
Anything in HIP here Gurn?


I've seen the Eroica Quartet doing 1 and 3 String Quartets, but haven't purchased it (yet!). I'd love to hear those SQs on vintage instruments!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Haffner on April 07, 2007, 09:39:31 AM

I've seen a cd advertising the Eroica Quartet doing 1 and 3 String Quartets, but haven't purchased it (yet!). I'd love to hear those SQs on vintage instruments!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Maciek on April 07, 2007, 09:49:53 AM
I love his symphonies and the chamber music (Schumann's Piano Quintet is perhaps my favorite piece in that genre).
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 07, 2007, 10:08:32 AM
I really need to hear these, since I am inclined to like HIP readings in general (and like Gardiner's work), and I like all four symphonies.  Most of the versions I've heard, including Alan Gilbert and the NY Philharmonic in the Third Symphony last week, are more pumped up, but I can well imagine that they'd be effective done much leaner.

Bruce - I'll certainly second Gurn's opinion on the Gardiner set (shown below) - just outstanding and revelatory w/ the orchestration used; however, a full price offering (although I 'lucked out' on the BGM club); another recommendation for those on a budget is the Zinman set ($11 at Amazon) - for those interested, click on the images for comments (the Zinman received a superlative review from our own Scott Morrison); own & enjoy both sets.   :D

(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000006PKI.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Complete-Symphonies-Robert/dp/B000006PKI/ref=sr_1_1/103-4191504-6570256?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1175972488&sr=1-1)  (http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0007PLKS4.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Schumann-Symphonies-Nos-1-4/dp/B0007PLKS4/ref=sr_1_1/103-4191504-6570256?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1175972298&sr=1-1)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Drasko on April 07, 2007, 10:11:17 AM
Rec, please. A Schumann specialist says Philadelphia / Ormandy  Rudolf Serkin, which is probably the way I'll go. I have CO of Europe / Harnoncourt Argerich and surprisingly I don't care for it, it hasn't sold the piece to me yet... :(

8)

Gilels/LSO/Bohm, check with our redoubtable Lilas on this
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brewski on April 07, 2007, 10:22:53 AM
Bruce - I'll certainly second Gurn's opinion on the Gardiner set (shown below) - just outstanding and revelatory w/ the orchestration used; however, a full price offering  

No problem with "full price" -- that's why we're lucky to live near (link follows) Academy Records! (http://www.academy-records.com/)  :D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: knight66 on April 07, 2007, 10:55:56 AM
A great favourite of mine is his song cycle Fraunliebe und Leben, A Woman's Life. Feminists now berate the assumption that the woman sees herself very much in connection with the man she loves. That relationship provides her with her identity and purpose. The progress of the cycle is through love, marriage and widowhood.

Taken on its own terms as the journey of one woman as against an expected journey of all womankind, it can be exceptionally moving. It is packed with melody and great singers can make a three dimensional character from the songs. The numb and numbing ending to the cycle with the beautiful piano postlude is a masterstroke.

Mike
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Novi on April 07, 2007, 12:50:08 PM
Schumann's solo piano works are probably my favourite after Beethoven's.

In particular, I like Richter's Symphonic Etudes - wow, what energy! I love how there's everything in these Etudes - dreaminess, exuberance, whimsy, gravity, feverishness.

My other favourite is the Fantasiestücke. I used to really like Argerich in this, but recently have felt her reading to be somewhat unsatisfying. For example, I've always found her 'Aufschwung' to be particularly thrilling, but the more I think about it, it's less 'soaring' than a roller coaster on speed. These days, I reach for Rubinstein whenever I want to listen to this piece. 

The A minor piano concerto is also a favourite. I love the lush romanticism of it. I'm not sure that I have a favourite here, but Cortot and Moravec get played the most.

I don't know much of Schumann's chamber works except the piano quintet, so I'm keen to explore in that direction. 
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Holden on April 07, 2007, 01:11:46 PM
Schumann is probably not a composer that one discovers as a newbie to classical music. Whether this is because there are no really famous/beautiful tunes (Traumerei excepted) like Chopin composed, or, hugely epic and famous works like the LvB 9th that everyone seems to know a little bit of, is hard to say.

However, once you kick into his unique world of tonal colour you're hooked for life.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: aquablob on April 07, 2007, 01:24:44 PM
These days, I reach for Rubinstein whenever I want to listen to ['Aufschwung']. 

I second this, but favor even more his entire Op. 9.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: david johnson on June 24, 2007, 02:18:16 PM
yesterday i got symphonies 1-4 with zinman/zurich.  i've listened to 1 - 2 a couple of times today and really like them.

dj
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: George on June 24, 2007, 03:27:51 PM
Schumann is probably not a composer that one discovers as a newbie to classical music. Whether this is because there are no really famous/beautiful tunes (Traumerei excepted) like Chopin composed, or, hugely epic and famous works like the LvB 9th that everyone seems to know a little bit of, is hard to say.

However, once you kick into his unique world of tonal colour you're hooked for life.

I have had much trouble getting into Schumann, but I will continue to try.

Kresleriana and "Scenes from Childhood" clicked immediately however.  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: PSmith08 on June 24, 2007, 06:13:43 PM
Solo piano works and the lieder Gurn!  >:( These are his two main areas of activity and he excelled in both more than any other. I will not be kept quiet!! ;D

Ah. Schumann's Lieder are as fine as you could want. I am partial to the op. 24 Liederkreis (even more than the Dichterliebe, but I'll get to that in a minute). It goes without saying, though, that I view Schumann as standing no higher than second in the Lieder pantheon - second only to Schubert. That's no small feat, when you think of the composers jockeying for the spot (Beethoven, Mahler, Wagner, Strauss, Wolf, et al.). More than that, Schumann's Lieder are of such quality that he really commands the field in his age and later. When you start to factor in everything else, it begins to pile up into a pretty daunting oeuvre in terms of complexity and quality.

This, too, affords me the opportunity to shill for my favorite Lieder CD[/i] (http://www.orfeo-international.de/pages/c658051b.html). The 2002 collaboration between András Schiff and Peter Schreier (continuing their really splendid work from the Decca Schubert recordings)  is - to my preferences - the best out there. Schreier's cerebral (or, intellectual: neither word has the wholly positive connotations I need) and Schiff's intelligent and precise accompaniment leads to just a nice disc. Schreier is probably my favorite tenor, and he certainly reminds me here - at somewhat advanced age - why. His "Ich grolle nicht" is, despite my overall preference for "Mit Myrthen und Rosen," simply wonderful. He manages to get a quiet bitterness and hurt going until the end. In other words, I like the disc.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: aquablob on June 24, 2007, 11:48:38 PM
I have had much trouble getting into Schumann, but I will continue to try.

Kresleriana and "Scenes from Childhood" clicked immediately however.  :)

Having trouble getting into Schumann? Please allow me to recommend the following:
http://www.amazon.com/Rubinstein-Collection-Vol-Robert-Schumann/dp/B00005427I
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: quintett op.57 on June 25, 2007, 12:20:47 AM
Have you heard his Andante & Variations for 2 pianos, 2 cellos & 1 horn?
It's the third time I give this link. I'm surprised no one seems to be interested.
http://opus100.free.fr/fr/Schumann6.html (http://opus100.free.fr/fr/Schumann6.html)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Haffner on June 25, 2007, 03:01:26 AM
I have had much trouble getting into Schumann, but I will continue to try.






I'm surprised! For me, Schumann is to Beethoven what Schubert was to Mozart...in the extraordinary sense of successfully channeling your influences. I love how works like Schumann's Piano Quintet often sound so mid-era (op.59 to Quartetto Serioso) Beethoven.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: quintett op.57 on June 25, 2007, 03:43:46 AM
His Symphonies, and SQ, and of course his piano music. Schumann has not composed that many things I dislike.
He is much under valued, I think, and without reason.
I agree.
I enjoy his symphonies but I'm not addicted.
I prefer his chamber and piano music.
His SQ are unfairly neglected in my opinion.

I love his 3rd piano trio and his cello concerto is a fantastic masterpiece.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Haffner on June 25, 2007, 03:45:39 AM

I prefer his chamber and piano music.
His SQ are unfairly neglected in my opinion.

I love his 3rd piano trio and his cello concerto is a fantastic masterpiece.



I agree, Q.! Those string quartets are often fabulous, and the cello concerto is just addictive.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: George on June 25, 2007, 04:59:58 AM
Having trouble getting into Schumann? Please allow me to recommend the following:
http://www.amazon.com/Rubinstein-Collection-Vol-Robert-Schumann/dp/B00005427I

I've got it. I just need to listen to it more.  ::)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 25, 2007, 05:08:42 AM
Have you heard his Andante & Variations for 2 pianos, 2 cellos & 1 horn?
It's the third time I give this link. I'm surprised no one seems to be interested.

This does sounds interesting (odd combination of instruments),  I would have never guessed it was by Schumann. Do you know if there are any recordings available? I tried JPC and came up with nothing.

Sarge
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on June 25, 2007, 05:21:03 AM
Have you heard his Andante & Variations for 2 pianos, 2 cellos & 1 horn?
It's the third time I give this link. I'm surprised no one seems to be interested.
http://opus100.free.fr/fr/Schumann6.html (http://opus100.free.fr/fr/Schumann6.html)

Haven't heard it, but I agree heartily, it sounds very interesting.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Que on June 25, 2007, 07:29:07 AM
Have you heard his Andante & Variations for 2 pianos, 2 cellos & 1 horn?
It's the third time I give this link. I'm surprised no one seems to be interested.
http://opus100.free.fr/fr/Schumann6.html (http://opus100.free.fr/fr/Schumann6.html)

Did you find a CD with this work yet?

Q
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Drasko on June 25, 2007, 10:14:10 AM
This does sounds interesting (odd combination of instruments),  I would have never guessed it was by Schumann. Do you know if there are any recordings available? I tried JPC and came up with nothing.

Sarge

http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Quintet-Variations-Fantasiestucke-Argerich/dp/B00005YW4L (http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Quintet-Variations-Fantasiestucke-Argerich/dp/B00005YW4L)

http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Chamber-Music-Mischa-Maisky/dp/B000002RVK (http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Chamber-Music-Mischa-Maisky/dp/B000002RVK)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: quintett op.57 on June 25, 2007, 02:17:35 PM
This does sounds interesting (odd combination of instruments),  I would have never guessed it was by Schumann. Do you know if there are any recordings available? I tried JPC and came up with nothing.

Sarge
I have one CD but I'm not entirely satisfied with the sound.
Nevertheless, it's an interesting one, with Marta Argerich, my favourite Schumann pianist so far. I also remember Maisky is one of the cellists. 
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HPQFJQG8L._AA240_.jpg)
I'm probably going to purchase this one in the coming months :
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41dAd9cWm3L._AA240_.jpg)

The link I posted is the 3rd & last mvt of this. It's very unusual. Not only the ensemble is strange.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: quintett op.57 on June 25, 2007, 02:21:55 PM
This does sounds interesting (odd combination of instruments),  I would have never guessed it was by Schumann.
I don't know if I would have guessed, but I think we can hear the same kind of inspiration (which is far beyond the potential of our poor limited minds) in other works like the SQ 2&3 and one of his romances for piano.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 05, 2007, 09:13:47 AM
Klára Würtz playing Robert Schumann - another great 3-CD bargin from Brilliant - labelled as Vol. 1, so hopefully others will appear shortly; I've only listened to the first disc, but the playing is beautiful & poetic (loved her in the Mozart Sonatas - another fantastic bargin) - CLICK on the image for some excellent reviews from the Amazonians, esp. high appraisal from our own Scott Morrison - sounds like the 'Schumann Box Set' of the year!  :D

(http://p.playserver1.com/ProductImages/5/1/6/1/4/3/2/2341615_300x300_1.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Piano-Works-Vol-1/dp/B0000713AD/ref=sr_1_1/102-2794145-4418506?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183658396&sr=1-1)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Kiddiarni on July 05, 2007, 09:54:54 AM
Since no one has mentioned it, I like his 3 Romances for Oboe + Piano a lot.

Probably because I play the oboe...
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on July 05, 2007, 09:59:41 AM
Hmmm . . . "The Romantic Oboe" . . . .
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2007, 10:47:11 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Quintet-Variations-Fantasiestucke-Argerich/dp/B00005YW4L (http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Quintet-Variations-Fantasiestucke-Argerich/dp/B00005YW4L)

http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Chamber-Music-Mischa-Maisky/dp/B000002RVK (http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Chamber-Music-Mischa-Maisky/dp/B000002RVK)

I have one CD but I'm not entirely satisfied with the sound.
Nevertheless, it's an interesting one, with Marta Argerich, my favourite Schumann pianist so far. I also remember Maisky is one of the cellists.The link I posted is the 3rd & last mvt of this. It's very unusual. Not only the ensemble is strange.


Thanks guys. I found another one, too, performed by  the Guarneri Trio Prague on the Praga label (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4816597/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)

Now I just have to decide which to buy. The Praga looks interesting because it has other works of Schumann I don't have in my collection.

Sarge

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Don on July 05, 2007, 12:26:54 PM
Klára Würtz playing Robert Schumann - another great 3-CD bargin from Brilliant - labelled as Vol. 1, so hopefully others will appear shortly; I've only listened to the first disc, but the playing is beautiful & poetic (loved her in the Mozart Sonatas - another fantastic bargin) - CLICK on the image for some excellent reviews from the Amazonians, esp. high appraisal from our own Scott Morrison - sounds like the 'Schumann Box Set' of the year!  :D

(http://images.ciao.com/ide/images/products/normal/167/Schumann_Piano_Works_Vol_1_3_Klara_Wurtz__1514167.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Piano-Works-Vol-1/dp/B0000713AD/ref=sr_1_1/102-2794145-4418506?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183658396&sr=1-1)

It's been a long time since Vol. 1 was released.  I think Wurtz may have passed away.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 05, 2007, 01:27:44 PM
Hmmm . . . "The Romantic Oboe" . . . .

Karl - nothing wrong w/ a BIG stick & Romaticism!  ;) ;D :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2007, 01:28:15 PM
It's been a long time since Vol. 1 was released.  I think Wurtz may have passed away.

She'd only be 42 this year. Are you sure she's dead? Or are the reports greatly exaggerated? There's a Dutch website still promoting her recitals for the 2007/08 season.

Sarge
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 05, 2007, 01:36:33 PM
It's been a long time since Vol. 1 was released.  I think Wurtz may have passed away.

Don - I'm assuming that's a 'tongue in cheek' comment, but I did check the dates on that Vol. 1 set - 2001 - one would think Vol. 2 should have appeared by now!  I'd certainly be curious as to her future plans w/ Schumann & her health at this point!  ;D  Dave
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Kiddiarni on July 05, 2007, 02:06:38 PM
Karl - nothing wrong w/ a BIG stick & Romaticism!  ;) ;D :)

Hey!

It's not a stick, and definitely not a big one!

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 05, 2007, 02:26:46 PM
Hey!

It's not a stick, and definitely not a big one!

Kiddiarni - hard to determine your response w/o the use of emoticons!  My response to Karl was obviously in jest - I love the oboe and own dozens of discs of oboe music - I hope that you are taking this response similarly; if not, then I apologize, and hope that you will continue to enjoy the forum -  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Kiddiarni on July 05, 2007, 02:43:18 PM
Of course I take it like humor  :D

Will use emoticons next time...
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Topaz on July 07, 2007, 04:46:51 AM
I'm not sure that Schumann is still under-rated.  The more I dig around in this area the more fans I discover. As someone greatly interested in Schumann's works, I'd like to add a few comments:

For the symphonies, I consider the Sawallisch/Staatskapelle Dresden set the best of the lot.  Next the Zinman/Tonhalle set. The Harnoncourt set is good too.

Schumann's many piano solo works are of course mostly outstanding.  Based on a number of different versions that I have, I find the Ashkenazy boxed set as good as any.  In one or two areas Richter is slightly better (eg Op 26), but there's usually a bit background noise, whereas the Ashkenazy set is very clean.  Another superb interpretor is Horowitz (eg Ops 14, 19) . Rubinstein has a nice touch (eg Op 18).  Other favourites include Berezovski, Le Sage, Thibaudet.  My overall favourite piece is Op 17 Fantasie by Catherine Collard.  These solo pieces, as a whole, are a match for anyone's!!!

The Piano Concerto has of course been recorded umpteen times, very often matched with the Grieg PC for some strange reason.  My favourite version is by Murray Perahia/Sir Colin Davis.  Another is by Curzon.

Dichterliebe. The recording by Fritz Wunderlich is superb.  One of the best tenors ever.

Paradies und de Peri is an inspired work which Schumann was very proud of. My version is by Joshard Daus.

The Piano Quintet is one of the best chamber pieces in my opinion.  I'd say the version by Argerich is the best.

Various orchestral pieces like Op 70, 73, 92, 134 are treasures worth seeking out.  Versions with Murray Perahia are always very good.

There's a good overtures CD by Lior Shambadal that's worth getting.

The Cello Concerto is superb.  In my view the Isserlis version slightly pips the Du Pre, but both are superb.

All the above works are of course well known.  A less well known piece, which is truly wonderful, is the Violin Concerto WoO 23. My version of this is by Kremer, Ricardo Muti. 

Yet another less well-known piece is the Mass, Op 147.  The "offertorium" of this Mass is divine!

 






Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on September 20, 2007, 06:39:28 PM
Ok, I am in the market for a Schumann Symphony Cycle.  Here are my final candidates after sampling hard and heavy:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51503Q803GL._AA240_.jpg)
Like this one because it sounds like Schumann and just not Szell.  ;D

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/519R33H3N6L._AA240_.jpg)
Not too shabby.....the sound seems a bit hollow though, but for the price!

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XP5421J8L._AA240_.jpg)
Really enjoyed this one, but the price on the used market seems a bit steep even for 3 cds.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MS18RN1FL._AA240_.jpg)
A nice surprise here....possibly my front runner, though the opening to No. 1 may be a bit weak, the slow/softer movements sampled very well.

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/70/449070.jpg)
This one has my attention as well.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2007, 08:52:43 PM
Cello Concerto, Manfred Overture, Second Symphony, the Liederkreis op. 39 - these are some of my firm favourites.

Schumann's music is so warm and painfully beautiful, it's almost unbearable to listen to sometimes.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Harry on September 21, 2007, 04:00:33 AM
It is really a question of your taste. Both Zinman and Gardiner are good choices.
Gardiner is the winner for me, because he is more consequent in tempi, and they are fast, but not to fast for me. Zinman is good and very detailed, and has also a keen ear for tempi, internal as external, but he tempi slacken somewhat in the 3th and 4th, not a major point but it irritated me a bit. The recording by Simon Eadon is very good and not hollow at all. A good deep soundstage, but that depends on your equipment.
Sawallish is very good, if you like your Schumann romantic and fullblooded, but he is to traditional for me.
Eschenbach I think is a cold approach, and adds nothing to say, Sawallish. Eccentricities abound with Eschenbach. Not my choice.
Szell I do not know.
Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 21, 2007, 06:13:05 AM
Okay. I am confused. I thought we talk about recordings on the Great Recordings board, not in here...  ???
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: George on September 21, 2007, 06:18:34 AM
Ok, I am in the market for a Schumann Symphony Cycle.  Here are my final candidates after sampling hard and heavy:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51503Q803GL._AA240_.jpg)
Like this one because it sounds like Schumann and just not Szell.  ;D


If, or rather when, I pursue a second Schumann cycle. (Sat that three times fast)  ;D  Szell will be the one that I go with.  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on September 21, 2007, 03:11:46 PM
Okay. I am confused. I thought we talk about recordings on the Great Recordings board, not in here...  ???

Sorry David....I just noticed that this thread had been dormant for almost 3 months and thought I would bring it back to life with my Schumann question, especially seeing that those that posted here must enjoy his works at some level to begin with and maybe own them as well.  I can ask a moderator to move it if you believe it derails the main purpose here.  Just let me know. :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: George on September 21, 2007, 03:17:44 PM
Okay. I am confused. I thought we talk about recordings on the Great Recordings board, not in here...  ???

I absolutely agree. You are confused.  ;D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 21, 2007, 04:30:51 PM
Sorry David....I just noticed that this thread had been dormant for almost 3 months and thought I would bring it back to life with my Schumann question, especially seeing that those that posted here must enjoy his works at some level to begin with and maybe own them as well.  I can ask a moderator to move it if you believe it derails the main purpose here.  Just let me know. :)

Hey, it's no big deal. I was just wondering. Any Schumann post is a good Schumann post.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on October 07, 2007, 09:32:33 AM
As posted on the purchase thread:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/4711919.jpg)

Well, after two weeks of sampling the Zinman, Gardiner, Szell, Eschenbach, and Sawallisch, I found that the Sawallisch just kept pulling ahead of the others for what I might enjoy.  Your assessment that the Sawallisch is "romantic and fullblooded" Harry seems to line up with the samples I have played over and over....and over. ;D  Thanks to all here for your opinions given over on the Shoebox thread.....this may have been the longest I have taken in choosing a particular set of recordings.

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Ten thumbs on October 12, 2007, 11:16:32 AM
I have just come from playing the Waldszenen. I always approach and leave 'The Prophet Bird' with a feeling of absolute astonishment. How Schumann thought it up I can't imagine. What are your impressions of this piece?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Don on October 12, 2007, 11:48:02 AM
I have just come from playing the Waldszenen. I always approach and leave 'The Prophet Bird' with a feeling of absolute astonishment. How Schumann thought it up I can't imagine. What are your impressions of this piece?

Excellent piece with a tender middle section, but it's a long way from my favorite Schumann miniatures.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Ten thumbs on October 13, 2007, 11:47:41 AM
Not my favourite either but like the magic dragon it goes off in a puff of smoke. In some ways it really is prophetic.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: B_cereus on October 16, 2007, 12:39:54 AM
Nachtstücke, op.23

#4 is my fave. Speaks to the soul.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Ten thumbs on October 16, 2007, 11:47:25 AM
Nachtstücke, op.23

#4 is my fave. Speaks to the soul.
#3 too. the dynamism of the rhythms draw one ever onwards.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on January 07, 2008, 10:04:32 AM
Schumann's one of my top 5 favorite composers.

I enjoy all 4 of his symphonies very much.

Also his 3 string quartets, piano quintet and piano quartet.  I'm looking forward to getting some more chamber music of his in 2008.

His piano concerto is simply my number 1 favorite PC!

I'm lukewarm on his Cello Concerto, though.  And I had a listen to his not very well known unpublished Violin Concerto.  Eeek.  :P

I'm very fortunate that I get to hear live both his Piano Concerto and Piano Quintet this year!   :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Don on January 07, 2008, 10:10:21 AM
Schumann's one of my top 5 favorite composers.

I enjoy all 4 of his symphonies very much.

Also his 3 string quartets, piano quintet and piano quartet.  I'm looking forward to getting some more chamber music of his in 2008.

His piano concerto is simply my number 1 favorite PC!

I'm lukewarm on his Cello Concerto, though.  And I had a listen to his not very well known unpublished Violin Concerto.  Eeek.  :P

I'm very fortunate that I get to hear live both his Piano Concerto and Piano Quintet this year!   :)

You've left out his solo piano works which I feel blows away his music in other genres.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on January 07, 2008, 10:13:23 AM
You've left out his solo piano works which I feel blows away his music in other genres.

Don, that's only because I have yet to hear his solo piano works.   ;)  I've only heard "Scenes from Childhood" Kinderszenen so far, and I thought it was marvelous!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Don on January 07, 2008, 10:16:09 AM
Don, that's only because I have yet to hear his solo piano works.   ;)  I've only heard "Scenes from Childhood" Kinderszenen so far, and I thought it was marvelous!

Great - just keep on going. Keep in mind that Kinderszenen contrasts the wonder of a child with the nostalgia of an adult.  That's rather unusual for Schumann's piano music; usually, the contrast is between Florestan and Eusebius.

Anyways, check out Kreisleriana and Davidsbundlertanze.  More compelling solo piano music has never been written.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Gustav on January 07, 2008, 10:38:52 AM
As posted on the purchase thread:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/4711919.jpg)

Well, after two weeks of sampling the Zinman, Gardiner, Szell, Eschenbach, and Sawallisch, I found that the Sawallisch just kept pulling ahead of the others for what I might enjoy.  Your assessment that the Sawallisch is "romantic and fullblooded" Harry seems to line up with the samples I have played over and over....and over. ;D  Thanks to all here for your opinions given over on the Shoebox thread.....this may have been the longest I have taken in choosing a particular set of recordings.



I have heard of all of the above excerpt for the Zinman and Eschenbach, but I find myself absolutely addicted to the Szell cycle. The sound quality is just amazing, and it just seemed that every note they played was flawless; the sawallisch is almost as good, but for some reason (I can't even say why) I didn't like it as much as the Szell one. The Gardiner is an entirely different approach, and some people love that, and some don't; The karajan one is good too, but the sound quality is not as ideal as the first two.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on January 07, 2008, 10:45:42 AM
Gustav, I have the Zinman w/  Zürich Tonhalle Orchestra set, and thoroughly enjoy it!  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Gustav on January 07, 2008, 10:54:35 AM
Gustav, I have the Zinman w/  Zürich Tonhalle Orchestra set, and thoroughly enjoy it!  :)

I'm glad to hear that, but from the several 30 sec clips i heard from Itunes, it's pretty nice. Btw, I forgot to mention Bernstein's cycle with WP, which is amazing, it is not the same when you have the WP playing Schumann.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on January 07, 2008, 11:28:52 AM
Well, I just had my first exposure to Schumann's piano sonata # 1 in F sharp minor, Op. 11, and I was completely blown away by it!  WOW!   :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on January 11, 2008, 08:16:34 AM
For the 3 String Quartets, I recommend Fine Arts Quartet on Naxos. 

One of my favorite movements in the entire string quartet repertoire is the 2nd movement of the 3rd quartet Op. 41/3 in A major.

Others I can recommend:

Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet - Emerson String Quartet w/ Mennheim Pressler from Beaux Arts Trio

Piano Concerto in A minor - Jorge Bolet, piano; Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra w/ Ricardo Chailly.

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: George on January 11, 2008, 08:17:23 AM
Well, I just had my first exposure to Schumann's piano sonata # 1 in F sharp minor, Op. 11, and I was completely blown away by it!  WOW!   :)

Who was playing?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on January 11, 2008, 08:18:39 AM
Who was playing?

B Glemser - Naxos label.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Morigan on January 11, 2008, 09:18:12 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31G3%2B%2B0lnlL._SS500_.jpg)

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Wanderer on January 11, 2008, 09:50:56 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31G3%2B%2B0lnlL._SS500_.jpg)

Any thoughts?

Excellent and sparkling performances, recommended!   You might as well go for the whole package, as Nos.1 & 3 aren't available separately.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/0028947800378.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2008, 10:06:21 AM
Excellent and sparkling performances, recommended!   You might as well go for the whole package, as Nos.1 & 3 aren't available separately.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/0028947800378.jpg)

Thanks for pointing that out! I didn't know it was available. Decent price, too, from JPC.

Sarge
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Wanderer on January 11, 2008, 10:15:22 AM
Thanks for pointing that out! I didn't know it was available. Decent price, too, from JPC.

Sarge

What's more, it's currently on offer at mdt... (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/4780037.htm)  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 11, 2008, 10:17:15 AM
What's more, it's currently on offer at mdt... (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/4780037.htm)  :)
Go figure, they have it in Europe and Japan, just not in the US >:(
They should be ashamed of themselves here in the US for not making that available.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2008, 10:17:55 AM
What's more, it's currently on offer at mdt... (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/4780037.htm)  :)

Euro 14.56! Nice.

Sarge

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Morigan on January 11, 2008, 11:59:19 AM
Same reaction as Sergeant here: I had no idea there was a complete set. But is it avaible in America?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: jwinter on January 16, 2008, 12:44:17 PM
Amazon has the Chailly available for pre-order, shipping February 16

What I want to know is, what's the significance of the "Mahler Editions"?  To what extent did Mahler revise these?  I already have several versions of these symphonies in the standard versions --are we talking minor tweaking, or something more along the lines of what Mahler did with Beethoven 9?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 16, 2008, 01:00:48 PM
Amazon has the Chailly available for pre-order, shipping February 16

What I want to know is, what's the significance of the "Mahler Editions"?  To what extent did Mahler revise these?  I already have several versions of these symphonies in the standard versions --are we talking minor tweaking, or something more along the lines of what Mahler did with Beethoven 9?
Awhile ago M Forever posted a clip of the 1st movement of the 4th symphony with this conductor/ensemble/edition. All I can say is that the texture is more transparent. The woodwind solos are much more prominent and there appears to be less doubling of melodies. Now I don't hear anything drastic. I think Mahler touched up some of the dynamics and scoring in a delicate and tasteful kind of way. You know what you hear? Think about a typical Mahler symphony with a large orchestra but keeping the chambermusic kind of texture and apply that to Schumann and you get a pretty good approximation.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Gustav on January 16, 2008, 04:43:50 PM
Mahler re-orchestrations are more chamber like, in other words "lighter" than most other versions. Mahler also made certain "transitions" "smoother", just off the top of my head, I remember that he added a little decrescendo at the end of the first theme in the 3rd movement of Schumann's 4th(just before the woodwinds come in). Small things like that, some likes it, some are neutral, some don't.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Que on January 29, 2008, 12:44:38 AM
I'm looking for recommendations on recordings of Schumann's piano trios!

I already know the Beaux Arts Trio. And if a HIP recording exists (but not to my knowledge), I would be happy to hear about it.

Anyone? :)

Q
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 29, 2008, 06:01:11 AM
Amazon has the Chailly available for pre-order, shipping February 16
What I want to know is, what's the significance of the "Mahler Editions"?  To what extent did Mahler revise these?

Other than the addition of a double chorus, organ and bells to the finale of the Rhenish, the revisions are pretty discrete and tasteful, J.

Seriously, as PW noted, it's more a question of revising dynamics and thinning orchestration to make things more audible and/or more dramatic; for example, drastically cutting the trumpet and timpani parts in the outer movements of the Rhenish. He also does things like restoring Schumann's original notes to the horns and trumpets in the fanfares of the First (Schumann had changed them at the first rehearsal when he realized they sounded bad on valveless instruments). He reverts to Schumann's original intention and eliminates the outer movement repeats in the Fourth. In the Finale's concluding pages he adds high horns to spectacular effect. One change is particularly Mahlerlian, though: at bar 847 he has the trombones and horns play fff, Schalltrichter auf! (bells in the air). Reminiscent of the Resurrection.

The booklet that comes with the set has an extensive list of the changes Mahler made (five pages worth); too many to mention here. If you love Schumann (and Mahler), I think this is a must-have set. Just don't expect drastic changes. It still sounds like Schumann. Mahler was quite respectful of Schumann's original sound, and intentions.

Sarge
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Que on January 29, 2008, 06:47:41 AM
If you love Schumann (and Mahler), I think this is a must-have set. Just don't expect drastic changes. It still sounds like Schumann. Mahler was quite respectful of Schumann's original sound, and intentions.

I guess Mahler realised that there was a gap between the original composition and and the orchestral performance practice of his own time. So, this would be kind of the opposite of HIP: adapting the composition to contemporary performance practices, instead of the other way around.

Q
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: jwinter on January 29, 2008, 10:32:03 AM
Thanks for the feedback on Mahler's revisions.  I don't have a big need for more Schumann right now -- I have Barenboim, Bernstein, Kubelik, Szell, and Zinman already -- but it sounds like the Chailly might have a spot on the shelf too, if the price is nice... : )
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Guido on January 29, 2008, 11:59:26 AM
I've talked to a lot of cellists, and it seems that secretly many if not quite most prefer the Schumann cello concerto to the Dvorak. I am on the fence, but there is no question that it is one of the absolute pinncales of the repertory. It gets relatively few outings cmpared to its quality because its an extremely dense and 'no-heroic' work - its not going to bring an audience to its feet like the Dvorak will, but then of course Schumann is not trying to do that.

The violin concerto is another piece that I adore, and it may well be my favourite violin concerto (along with the Shostakovich violin concerto no.1 and Barber). So many musicians I have talked to don't even know of its existence!

Thinking about it Schumann may be my favourite romantic composer...
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 29, 2008, 01:12:47 PM
Well, I just had my first exposure to Schumann's piano sonata # 1 in F sharp minor, Op. 11, and I was completely blown away by it!  WOW!   :)

Now you have to hear Grimaud:

"At 18 she is already a magnificent artist and I only hope that she manages to retain this degree of quality. Nothing is immature, and there is never a hint of display for display's sake. The Schumann F sharp Sonata is a tricky number. The lightning changes of pace and mood require the pianist to follow one manically excited passage with another that is full of heartfelt yearning, and yet still remain poised. Grimaud takes risks, and allied to her natural feeling for the larger musical forms, her mastery of every detail of the polyphonic writing is second to none. Maybe the Intermezzo section of the Scherzo could have done with more pomposity, but all the fast passages throughout the work come off with a rhythmic clarity that is never prissy, but integral to a thorough appreciation of the score."--Gramophone


Sarge
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on February 12, 2008, 05:36:17 AM
Same reaction as Sergeant here: I had no idea there was a complete set. But is it avaible in America?

Figaro, I'm not sure if you got a hold of the Chailly complete set yet?  Just wanted to mention that I saw a set last night at the local McNally Robinson store, and it was $14.99 CDN

Do you have McNally Robinson stores in Quebec?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Morigan on February 14, 2008, 05:39:58 PM
Figaro, I'm not sure if you got a hold of the Chailly complete set yet?  Just wanted to mention that I saw a set last night at the local McNally Robinson store, and it was $14.99 CDN

Do you have McNally Robinson stores in Quebec?

We don't have these stores I'm afraid... But wait, you saw the whole 4-symphony set for 15 bucks?? I'll try to find it :o

Actually, it's available for $15 on Amazon.ca but is says "5 to 8 weeks before shipping"... That's horrible. The Canadian Amazon is always late on everything and offers only 10% of what's available on Amazon.com :(
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on February 15, 2008, 05:13:53 AM
We don't have these stores I'm afraid... But wait, you saw the whole 4-symphony set for 15 bucks?? I'll try to find it :o

Actually, it's available for $15 on Amazon.ca but is says "5 to 8 weeks before shipping"... That's horrible. The Canadian Amazon is always late on everything and offers only 10% of what's available on Amazon.com :(

Figaro, you could probably try to order it from McNally Robinson directly "on-line"?  Unfortunately, I can't view this site at work since it's blocked (but I can view Amazon, go figure?) ::)

Try McNally Robinson (http://www.mcnallyrobinson.com)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on December 04, 2008, 08:29:00 AM
I'm looking for recommendations on recordings of Schumann's piano trios!

I already know the Beaux Arts Trio. And if a HIP recording exists (but not to my knowledge), I would be happy to hear about it.

Anyone? :)

Q

Que, I'm also looking for recommendations of Schumann's piano trios.  I did an inventory of my collection, and my Schumann collection needs an insurgence!   :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: The new erato on December 04, 2008, 11:18:12 AM
Que, I'm also looking for recommendations of Schumann's piano trios.  I did an inventory of my collection, and my Schumann collection needs an insurgence!   :)

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4777476.jpg)

The Schumann op 63 on this set is an amazing performance. For a complete set the Beaux Arts cheap double on Philips (including the pf Quartet/Quintet) is solid, though not up to this inspired standard of playing.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Guido on March 09, 2009, 04:06:43 PM
Am I the only person who vastly prefers the Piano Quartet to the Piano Quintet? Much though I love the latter, I find  that the former is just so much more beautiful, more memorable, more satisfying, more exciting and touching...

Just me?  ???
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Guido on March 11, 2009, 04:08:14 PM
Just me?  ???

It would appear so...
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Que on March 11, 2009, 11:53:14 PM
Am I the only person who vastly prefers the Piano Quartet to the Piano Quintet? Much though I love the latter, I find the that the former is just so much more beautiful, more memorable, more satisfying, more exciting and touching...

Just me?  ???

I do not prefer the one over the other - love the nostalgic, autumnal feel of the piano quartet!
Though the general preference for the quintet make good recordings of the quartet thin on the ground...

Q
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Moldyoldie on May 13, 2009, 02:10:38 PM
[Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31GNVrKBu8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Schumann: Violin Sonata No. 1 in A minor, Op. 105;    Violin Sonata No. 2 in D minor, Op. 121;    Violin Sonata No. 3 in A minor, WoO 2
Carolin Widmann, violin;    Dénes Várjon, piano
ECM NEW SERIES

This is my long-delayed introduction to these works, and if the performances found on this 2008 release from the now-venerable ECM label are an indication, it's a wonder why these haven't been more popular or widely propagated in the vast Schumann discography.  There has seemingly been a spate of new recordings released in the past decade, so perhaps the situation is being rectified.  All three sonatas were composed within a brief three-year period (1851-3) late in the emotionally troubled composer's life.  Sonata No. 3 actually consists partially of two movements originally supplied by Schumann as part of a conglomerate work for violin virtuoso Joseph Joachim and whose remaining two movements were supplied by Brahms and the young Albert Dietrich.  Schumann later appended two additional movements to his original two, but apparently the completed No. 3 was never published until the 1950s!

Without getting into specific descriptions, the aggregate vibe across the three works is surprisingly affirmatory with a wonderfully varied, formally uncontained, yet thoroughly exhilarating Romantic expression that's unmistakably Schumannesque!  The performances by Widmann and Várjon are exemplary in their balance and barely controlled exuberance while  projecting a most satisfying emotional ebb and flow.  The recording is intimate -- close enough to hear Widmann's breath and Várjon's coaxing of the piano pedals -- but not so dry as to not allow for a marvelously complementing aural warmth.  Probably the most ear-catching moments are heard in the beautiful Leise, einfach third movement of the Sonata No. 2, introduced by the most ghostly soft pizzicato plucking (so soft and subtle that one might imagine the notes were generated by barely rendered col legno bow hits!) followed by its meltingly disarming melody.  This is one beautiful recording which I've been playing at least twice daily since I first unwrapped it!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on May 13, 2009, 02:25:54 PM
[Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31GNVrKBu8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Schumann: Violin Sonata No. 1 in A minor, Op. 105;    Violin Sonata No. 2 in D minor, Op. 121;    Violin Sonata No. 3 in A minor, WoO 2
Carolin Widmann, violin;    Dénes Várjon, piano
ECM NEW SERIES

This is my long-delayed introduction to these works, and if the performances found on this 2008 release from the now-venerable ECM label are an indication, it's a wonder why these haven't been more popular or widely propagated in the vast Schumann discography.  There has seemingly been a spate of new recordings released in the past decade, so perhaps the situation is being rectified.  All three sonatas were composed within a brief three-year period (1951-3) late in the emotionally troubled composer's life.  Sonata No. 3 actually consists partially of two movements originally supplied by Schumann as part of a conglomerate work for violin virtuoso Joseph Joachim and whose remaining two movements were supplied by Brahms and the young Albert Dietrich.  Schumann later appended two additional movements to his original two, but apparently the completed No. 3 was never published until the 1950s!

Without getting into specific descriptions, the aggregate vibe across the three works is surprisingly affirmatory with a wonderfully varied, formally uncontained, yet thoroughly exhilarating Romantic expression that's unmistakably Schumannesque!  The performances by Widmann and Várjon are exemplary in their balance and barely controlled exuberance while  projecting a most satisfying emotional ebb and flow.  The recording is intimate -- close enough to hear Widmann's breath and Várjon's coaxing of the piano pedals -- but not so dry as to not allow for a marvelously complementing aural warmth.  Probably the most ear-catching moments are heard in the beautiful Leise, einfach third movement of the Sonata No. 2, introduced by the most ghostly soft pizzicato plucking (so soft and subtle that one might imagine the notes were generated by barely rendered col legno bow hits!) followed by its meltingly disarming melody.  This is one beautiful recording which I've been playing at least twice daily since I first unwrapped it!

Thank you Moldyoldie....duly noted!  I have yet to discover these works myself.  I will have to put this on the "to discover plate"!  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Moldyoldie on May 14, 2009, 02:23:52 AM
Thank you Moldyoldie....duly noted!  I have yet to discover these works myself.  I will have to put this on the "to discover plate"!  :)
Please note that I amended the egregious error in composition dates!  Also know that one of the things characteristic of this Widmann/Várjon recording, which may either be a virtue or fault depending on one's sensibility, is its seeming uniformity; i.e., not swaying too far tempo-wise from an overall agreeable median across its entire 70+ minutes. Having sampled the competing Faust/Avenhaus recording on CPO, I can say that some of the latter's fast movements are noticeably headlong, perhaps providing more overt variance in tempo from movement to movement, if that's what the listener desires.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Herman on May 25, 2009, 12:29:19 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4777476.jpg)

The Schumann op 63 on this set is an amazing performance. For a complete set the Beaux Arts cheap double on Philips (including the pf Quartet/Quintet) is solid, though not up to this inspired standard of playing.

Florestan Trio is good and the Parnassus Trio, too.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 25, 2009, 02:15:46 AM
Re-upload (link was dead).

Willem van Otterloo conducting the Residentie Orkest in a fiery performance of the Manfred Overture (heard it digitally on BBC Radio 3 and captured it):

http://www.mediafire.com/?2nvozklmnim
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Herman on May 25, 2009, 10:12:07 AM
So what are your favorite versions of the Fantaisie Op 17?

Much to my surprise I found (today) I rather liked the 1966 Arrau. And, of course, the live Fiorentino.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 04:04:30 AM
This may on the surface seem subversive to this thread, but my planned listening this weekend includes the Shostakovich re-scoring of the Schumann Cello Concerto.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on May 30, 2009, 04:22:45 AM
This may on the surface seem subversive to this thread, but my planned listening this weekend includes the Shostakovich re-scoring of the Schumann Cello Concerto.

Interesting.  I've never heard of this before.  ???
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 04:25:11 AM
Interesting.  I've never heard of this before.  ???

Well, I had known of it long before I found a recording!  The premiere recording on Chandos is not all that old.

Curiously enough, it was first recorded by Gidon Kremer, playing (obviously) the solo part in a violin adaptation.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on May 30, 2009, 04:27:21 AM
Well, I had known of it long before I found a recording!  The premiere recording on Chandos is not all that old.

Curiously enough, it was first recorded by Gidon Kremer, playing (obviously) the solo part in a violin adaptation.

Oh, so it's re-scored as a violin concerto??
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 04:30:12 AM
Oh, so it's re-scored as a violin concerto??

Oh, I see I've confused you, mon ami.

Shostakovich prepared a new orchestration of the accompaniment at Slava's request;  it remains a cello concerto.

Kremer (who has also championed the Schumann Violin Concerto) seems to have prepared a violin adaptation for himself.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on May 30, 2009, 04:38:38 AM
Oh, I see I've confused you, mon ami.

Shostakovich prepared a new orchestration of the accompaniment at Slava's request;  it remains a cello concerto.

Kremer (who has also championed the Schumann Violin Concerto) seems to have prepared a violin adaptation for himself.

Yes, I think I now understand!  8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 04:43:16 AM
Quote from: Pistol
Rejoice, therefore!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Herman on May 30, 2009, 11:11:03 AM
Oh, I see I've confused you, mon ami.

Shostakovich prepared a new orchestration of the accompaniment at Slava's request;  it remains a cello concerto.


SO, what was wrong with orchestration, according to Rostropovich. Isn't the Cello Cto one of Schumann's most exquisitely scored works.?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 12:59:17 PM
SO, what was wrong with orchestration, according to Rostropovich. Isn't the Cello Cto one of Schumann's most exquisitely scored works.?

I haven't heard any detail on that question; I certainly confess its interest  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Drasko on May 30, 2009, 01:08:25 PM
So what are your favorite versions of the Fantaisie Op 17?

Egorov, Sofronitsky, Freire
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 02:31:17 PM
Isn't the Cello Cto one of Schumann's most exquisitely scored works?

Yes;  and the ironic upshot of Rostropovich's request is, that when he was in the West and programmed the Schumann, orchestras were disinclined to learn a new orchestration of the piece.  I don't know that he ever actually played the orchestration he asked of Shostakovich, outside of the Soviet Union.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Herman on May 31, 2009, 04:00:52 AM
Egorov, Sofronitsky, Freire

Egorov... I had forgotten about that one. I'll give it a spin soon, thanks.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Drasko on May 31, 2009, 09:41:48 AM
I particularly like the way he paces and builds the 3rd movement.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Guido on June 08, 2009, 01:24:06 PM
Schumann is 199 today.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: robnewman on June 09, 2009, 01:12:59 AM
One of my personal favorite composers. The epitome of Romanticism, perhaps, and I love him for it. The piano works in particular strike a chord with me:

Carnaval, Fantasiestücke, Davidsbündlertänze, the Fantasie, Kreisleriana, Symphonic Etudes, Waldszenen, Kinderszenen, the Novelettes, Gesänge der Frühe, Concert sans orchestre, the F# minor piano sonata, the G minor piano sonata, etc. etc. etc.

What wonderful music this madman left the world! I haven't even mentioned his orchestral, chamber, and vocal music -- all of which is superb. Schumann is a master of contrast and emotional extremes. What are some of your favorites?

Yes, I agree. Schumann is for me one of the most talented composers. The piano concerto, the cello concerto, and the much neglected violin concerto are amongst my favourites. His symphonies are all very good. But I sense in the symphonies and impatience and a real determination to free himself of any formalism. He's one of my most favourite composers.



Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Guido on June 09, 2009, 01:45:05 AM
This may on the surface seem subversive to this thread, but my planned listening this weekend includes the Shostakovich re-scoring of the Schumann Cello Concerto.

What did you think? I'm really not keen - don't think it adds much, and the changed notes inevitably sound worse - sort of incongruent. The harp in the slow movement is a nice touch, but the movement is so beautiful as it is it seems to be a case of gilding the lily...
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 04:58:31 AM
What did you think? I'm really not keen - don't think it adds much, and the changed notes inevitably sound worse - sort of incongruent. The harp in the slow movement is a nice touch, but the movement is so beautiful as it is it seems to be a case of gilding the lily...

Well, I like it a great deal.  True, I also like the Schumann original, too; so you mustn't consider the fact that I enjoy Shostakovich's scoring of the piece, any criticism of Schumann.  Specifically, I have no quarrel at all with Schumann's orchestration.  To that extent, I agree that the Shostakovich doesn't add much;  it is truly a gratuitous exercise of creativity.  (I have not penetrated the fog of just why Slava made the request.) — but of course, I think that Mozart adding clarinets to Messiah is something gratutous, too.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on June 16, 2009, 07:32:49 AM
DSCH re-orch of Schumann's Cello Cto.

Chandos was NOT the premiere. I had an old Olympia cd coupled with Brahms' Violin Cto. Anyone remember that? Also, it is difficult to hear the changes.

Schumann SQs:

I'm one of those who shy away from Schumann like a vampire from a cross (classical-romantic), but I just heard the Zehetmair Quartet's ECM recording of SQs 1 & 3. First point: why not record No.2 also? The cd is only 49mins.!!! Is No.2 really more than 30mins. long? I doubt it.

So, I'd thought Schumann's SQs were going to...well...suck, but, they come off to my virgin ears as quite the moody broody masterpieces. Even No.3 in A major seems to spend most of it's time is a relatively minor-ish mode. Both these SQs are the most elusive "Romantic" SQs I've heard, not at all like Brahms' more straight forward classical SQs. Yes, these SQs are deep in Poe country, verrry moody broody. I really don't think I've heard anything like them pre-1950. I just wish No.2 was on the disc: that is really irritating. I do, however, have to give the Zehetmair their due. The actual playing of these SQs seems to be coming from some very inward place. The nuances of tone and dynamics is extraordinary, certainly one of the most dedicated performances I can recall.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on June 16, 2009, 08:05:09 AM
DSCH re-orch of Schumann's Cello Cto.

Chandos was NOT the premiere. I had an old Olympia cd coupled with Brahms' Violin Cto. Anyone remember that?

Who was the cellist?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Nick on June 16, 2009, 09:51:14 AM
Schumann is one of the two or three composers I most enjoy listening to. In fact, I probably enjoy listening to him more than the music I've heard from any other composer from the 19th century.

I started collecting volumes from the Hyperion Schumann edition of lieder several years ago, finished it, and find it to be an embarassment of riches. Very consistent in quality, ranks among the best lieder sets.

It goes without saying that the complete Schumann piano music is in a class of its own.

I think he's underrated.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on June 16, 2009, 09:51:51 AM
Who was the cellist?

I'll get back to you... no one famous.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on June 16, 2009, 09:52:58 AM
I'll get back to you... no one famous.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Dr. Dread on June 16, 2009, 09:54:35 AM
I like lime cello.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 09:44:16 PM
Who was the cellist?

Fedor Lusinov!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: imperfection on June 17, 2009, 10:02:37 PM
Does anyone have an opinion on Mahler's reworking of Schumann's symphonies? I haven't heard the original pieces before, only the Mahlerlized ones, so I don't know what is improved or worsened.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Herman on June 17, 2009, 11:15:57 PM
So, I'd thought Schumann's SQs were going to...well...suck, but, they come off to my virgin ears as quite the moody broody masterpieces.

So why did you think that?

And how do you feel now as a person who'd deliberately stayed away from classical-romantic composers because they were stale, and now it turns out you are enjoying them so much?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 10:25:46 AM
So why did you think that?

And how do you feel now as a person who'd deliberately stayed away from classical-romantic composers because they were stale, and now it turns out you are enjoying them so much?

I thought they would suck because of my general "classical-romantic composers are stale" attitude.

However, I've never listened to Schumann's SQs before, and I found them instantly attractive (unlike Mendelssohn, for instance). I definitely did not find them "typical", whatever that would mean. Brahms' SQs may be "typical" in terms of "context", but I was quite surprised by them as well, thought the Schumann SQs are totally out of left field (whereas the Brahms seem more "traditional" to me (hence why I used the word "typical" (maybe not the bessst choice of words, I admit))).

How do I feel? I hope you're not fishing for "guilty"! ;D

For me, coming to Schumann by way of Xenakis seems to be the way God planned it for me. I applaud His strategy!

However, though I am curious to get that Tudor cd of Raff's SQ No.7 Die Schone Mullerin, I have a feeling that this SQ in particular might exhibit the tendencies that have kept me at bay for so long.

But please, don't get me wrong. I'm in a "learning" phase right now as per 1750-1850. I still might not necessarily "choose" to listen to the classical-romantic era for my own "pleasure", but I have uncovered some hitherto unrevealed masterpieces. Just check out the Haydn SQ thread to chart my "progress",haha.

It's just that that C. C. C. C. B...C. "classical" thing drives me bonkers.

A lot of this has to do with the fact that I've been staying at me mum's for the last six months, and I CAN'T play Xenakis!!! So, if you can't beat em...

But I think even Schumann's SQs might be too much for her!

But yea, my impressions of "wig" music are still in flux (not that that includes Schumann). I mean, if I'm considering cds by Gossec and Gretry, then I suspect that I may simply be suffering from OCD!

On second thought, I can tell you just why I've had problems with these eras: the MAJOR KEY. Many years ago, when I was doing my initial CL-RM research, the minor keys eluded me. This time around, I have a better idea of how to find what I'm looking for. I'm pretty sure that if I find an SQ in "c minor", for instance, I'm reasonably sure to enjoy the piece.

But, Haydn SQs are the key to my disdain, and lately, I've been able to get somewhat of a handle on the roots of my problems here.

Oy, I feel like I'm on trial here! ;D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Taxes- on July 04, 2009, 01:16:29 PM
A question about Schumann's piano works. I've heard the Richter recording of the Fantasy, Op. 17/Faschingsschwank aus Wien, Op. 26/Papillons, Op. 2 and somehow I've never been able to connect with it :(. I figure this has more to do with the compositions than the interpretations, because I do like Richter elsewhere.

There has to be other interesting pieces that I could try, right? I'd be a bit surprised to find out that the concerto is his only piano work that I like.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Moldyoldie on July 04, 2009, 03:44:05 PM
A question about Schumann's piano works. I've heard the Richter recording of the Fantasy, Op. 17/Faschingsschwank aus Wien, Op. 26/Papillons, Op. 2 and somehow I've never been able to connect with it :(. I figure this has more to do with the compositions than the interpretations, because I do like Richter elsewhere.

There has to be other interesting pieces that I could try, right? I'd be a bit surprised to find out that the concerto is his only piano work that I like.

Though Richter's Fantasy in C is tops in my estimation, maybe he's a bit too "Romantic" for you.  Try the more sober and cerebral Kempff in his 4-CD one-stop-shopping box from Deutsche Grammophon; it can be had for around $20-$25.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ns2jZiuvL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Papillons, Op. 2;    Davidsbündlertänze, Op. 6;    Symphonic Etudes, Op. 13;    Kinderszenen, Op. 15;    Kreisleriana, Op. 16;    Fantasia in C major, Op. 17;    Arabesques, Op. 18;    Humoresque, Op. 20;    Novelette, Op. 99 No. 9 (from de Bunte Blätter);    Sonata No. 2 in G minor, Op. 22;    Nachtstücke, Op. 23;    Three Romances, Op. 28;    Waldszenen, Op. 82    
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 04, 2009, 04:00:29 PM
A question about Schumann's piano works.....

There has to be other interesting pieces that I could try, right? I'd be a bit surprised to find out that the concerto is his only piano work that I like.

Well, first welcome to GMG Forum!  ;D

You've already had one recommendation; another would be an 'inexpensive' 3-CD set w/ Klára Würtz - if she does not impress & you do not enjoy, perhaps Schumann is not for you?  Good luck in your explorations -  :D

(http://records.joanrecords.com/ProductImages/99791.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Drasko on July 05, 2009, 09:24:26 AM
A question about Schumann's piano works. I've heard the Richter recording of the Fantasy, Op. 17/Faschingsschwank aus Wien, Op. 26/Papillons, Op. 2 and somehow I've never been able to connect with it :(. I figure this has more to do with the compositions than the interpretations, because I do like Richter elsewhere.

There has to be other interesting pieces that I could try, right? I'd be a bit surprised to find out that the concerto is his only piano work that I like.

There are plenty of interesting Schumann piano music you could try. If you are into something more classically structured you could try Symphonic Etudes or if you'd like suite of character pieces, more along Papillons, try Carnaval for start.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Taxes- on July 05, 2009, 12:36:15 PM
perhaps Schumann is not for you?
Oh, I'm sure that Schumann's for me, I just don't know it yet ;D.

The "too romantic" part is likely to be true actually, I've had issues with composers from this generation (Chopin, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Liszt) and in most cases they were only solved by finding the more objective interprets playing the composer's more classically inclined works.

I've sampled a bit of Kempff-Schumann, and this looks very promising. I wasn't able to do the same with Klára Würtz, but after reading a few reviews, I think I might end up also giving this one a try.

Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 06:20:50 AM
Fedor Lusinov!

Thank you!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scarpia on July 06, 2009, 06:29:45 AM
Oh, I'm sure that Schumann's for me, I just don't know it yet ;D.

The "too romantic" part is likely to be true actually, I've had issues with composers from this generation (Chopin, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Liszt) and in most cases they were only solved by finding the more objective interprets playing the composer's more classically inclined works.

I've sampled a bit of Kempff-Schumann, and this looks very promising. I wasn't able to do the same with Klára Würtz, but after reading a few reviews, I think I might end up also giving this one a try.

Thanks everyone!

Are you restricting yourself to piano music?  If you are, just about all of Schumann's piano music is the aural equivalent of tapioca pudding, gloppy and formless.  No pianist can change that (except by playing something else).  In his work in other genres he was able to gird his loins and write something coherent.  The four symphonies are outstanding and available in numerous outstanding recordings, my latest favorite is Daagaurd.  If you want piano in the mix, the piano Trios, Quartet and Quintet are rewarding. 
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: DavidW on July 06, 2009, 09:00:43 AM
Oh, I'm sure that Schumann's for me, I just don't know it yet ;D.

The "too romantic" part is likely to be true actually, I've had issues with composers from this generation (Chopin, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Liszt) and in most cases they were only solved by finding the more objective interprets playing the composer's more classically inclined works.

I've sampled a bit of Kempff-Schumann, and this looks very promising. I wasn't able to do the same with Klára Würtz, but after reading a few reviews, I think I might end up also giving this one a try.

Thanks everyone!

Performing a romantic era composer in a classical manner is not what I would call "objective" as much as wrong.  It's okay to prefer emotionally restrained performances, just please don't try to justify it with false claims of being objectively correct.  This is art anyway not accounting.  I would suggest simply waiting to be in the mood for romantic era music, no need to try to cram a round peg into a square hole.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: George on July 06, 2009, 10:19:52 AM
I dare anyone not to enjoy the Introduction and Allegro by Schumann.  8)

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scarpia on July 06, 2009, 11:50:40 AM
I dare anyone not to enjoy the Introduction and Allegro by Schumann.  8)

Ok, I'll take a crack at it.  Need to find a recording to maximize my chances of not enjoying it.  Richter seems like the obvious choice.   >:D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Taxes- on July 06, 2009, 11:52:36 AM
Are you restricting yourself to piano music?  If you are, just about all of Schumann's piano music is the aural equivalent of tapioca pudding, gloppy and formless.  No pianist can change that (except by playing something else).  In his work in other genres he was able to gird his loins and write something coherent.  The four symphonies are outstanding and available in numerous outstanding recordings, my latest favorite is Daagaurd.  If you want piano in the mix, the piano Trios, Quartet and Quintet are rewarding. 
Not exactly, it's just that I've been in a mood for keyboard music and little else lately.  I already like his piano and violin concerti quite a bit, in fact, and I'll get to the rest of his works eventually. I can't seem to find anything about these "Daagaurd" symphonies though, do you have more information about them?

Performing a romantic era composer in a classical manner is not what I would call "objective" as much as wrong.  It's okay to prefer emotionally restrained performances, just please don't try to justify it with false claims of being objectively correct.  This is art anyway not accounting.  I would suggest simply waiting to be in the mood for romantic era music, no need to try to cram a round peg into a square hole.
I guess that I'll have to be more careful with what I write! "Objective" might have been the wrong term to characterize the kind of pianists that I was refering to, i.e. the more emotionally restrained ones. I wasn't trying to justify anything or anyone either, I was just referring to my personal preferences as far as this part of the répertoire goes.

I dare anyone not to enjoy the Introduction and Allegro by Schumann.  8)
which one? There's two :o! I sure like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky5YnKXFm8c) though!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scarpia on July 06, 2009, 11:58:14 AM
Spelling mistake

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/BISSACD1519.jpg)(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/BISSACD1619.jpg)(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/BISSACD1569.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Taxes- on July 06, 2009, 12:14:59 PM
allright, thanks.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bulldog on July 06, 2009, 12:15:48 PM
Are you restricting yourself to piano music?  If you are, just about all of Schumann's piano music is the aural equivalent of tapioca pudding, gloppy and formless.  No pianist can change that (except by playing something else).  In his work in other genres he was able to gird his loins and write something coherent.  The four symphonies are outstanding and available in numerous outstanding recordings, my latest favorite is Daagaurd.  If you want piano in the mix, the piano Trios, Quartet and Quintet are rewarding. 

I feel just the opposite.  The solo piano works are miles ahead of Schumann's other compositions.  The common theme that his piano works are like pudding or some other glop is just inaccurate.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: George on July 06, 2009, 01:19:09 PM
Ok, I'll take a crack at it.  Need to find a recording to maximize my chances of not enjoying it.  Richter seems like the obvious choice.   >:D

Whatever sinks your boat.  8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 06, 2009, 07:34:28 PM
I feel just the opposite.  The solo piano works are miles ahead of Schumann's other compositions.  The common theme that his piano works are like pudding or some other glop is just inaccurate.

Ditto. And in general this is the majority opinion of Schumann's output, for good reason. 

Schumann's piano works carry more concentration per square inch than anything else he wrote. Just how that translates into "gloppy" I'll never know. ::)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2009, 02:22:23 AM
George!  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: George on July 07, 2009, 03:43:45 AM
George!  :)

k a rl!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 07, 2009, 06:30:13 AM
"Objective" might have been the wrong term to characterize the kind of pianists that I was refering to, i.e. the more emotionally restrained ones.

You might try these works played by Pollini:

CONCERT SANS ORCHESTRE F MINOR OP.14
ALLEGRO B MINOR OP.8
DAVIDSBÜNDLERTÄNZE OP.6 FIRST EDITION
GESÄNGE DER FRÜHE OP.133
KREISLERIANA OP.16 FIRST VERSION

Available on this two disc set:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2009/SchumPollDavid.jpg)

This is my favorite Schumann piano recording and I think he's the type of interpreter you might be looking for. Stephen Plaistow in Gramophone says, "Pollini, never one to play the dreamy Daniel in Schumann, may seem plain or his stance over- objective to some, but I would defend him to the death." That he plays the first editions of Kreisleriana and the Davidsbündlertänze is a major plus (most other pianists play the less harmonically interesting revised versions).

If you're looking for a great symphony cycle, do not overlook the classic Szell/Cleveland.

Sarge
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: George on July 07, 2009, 06:54:29 AM
If you're looking for a great symphony cycle, do not overlook the classic Szell/Cleveland.

Sarge

Grabbed that one recently.  8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ChamberNut on September 03, 2009, 09:06:22 AM
Everything old is new again!  :)

Listening to that Piano Concerto again, it felt like the first time I enjoyed listening to it.  So fresh and exuberant.  Just love it.

The King of the early Romantics!  0:)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Herman on September 04, 2009, 10:54:51 PM
Are you restricting yourself to piano music?  If you are, just about all of Schumann's piano music is the aural equivalent of tapioca pudding, gloppy and formless.  No pianist can change that (except by playing something else).  

This is the beauty of the internet. The lame leading the blind.

A couple of other posters have already intervened in this egregious piece of malinformation / misdirection. I love Schumann's chamber music and his symphonies nr 2 and 4, but no well-intended person would tell a Schumann newbie that Schumann's piano solo music needs to be skipped in order to savour Schumann (and then recommend a couple excentric symphony recordings).

If you are looking for the more classically formed pieces I'd say the Kreisleriana and the Sonatas wouldn't be a bad place to start.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Guido on October 14, 2009, 05:05:34 PM
Just browsing the Schumann work list page on Wikipedia and am completely daunted by the number of works I havent heard by this guy. He's one of my all time favourites - Too many pieces to mention of his that I truly love.

Of the songs though, I only know the op.39 Liederkreis and the Dichterleider both of which are desert island works for me since I was introduced to them about a year ago (thanks to Luke!). Where to next though? The list is truly massive:

Op. 24, Liederkreis (Heine), nine songs (1840)
Op. 25, Myrthen, twenty-six songs (4 books) (1840)
Op. 27, Lieder und Gesänge volume I (5 songs) (1840)
Op. 29, 3 Gedichte (1840)
Op. 30, 3 Gedichte (1840)
Op. 31, 3 Gesänge (1840)
Op. 33, 4 Lieder (part songs for men's voices with piano ad lib) (1840)
Op. 34, 4 Duets (soprano and tenor with piano) (1840)
Op. 35, 12 Gedichte (1840)
Op. 36, 6 Gedichte (1840)
Op. 37, Gedichte aus "Liebesfrühling" (12 songs, of which numbers 2, 4 and 11 are by Clara Schumann) (1840)
Op. 39, Liederkreis (Eichendorff), twelve songs (1840)
Op. 40, 5 Lieder (1840)
Op. 42, Frauenliebe und -leben (Chamisso), eight songs (1840)
Op. 43, 3 Duets (1840)
Op. 45, Romanzen & Balladen volume I (3 songs) (1840)
Op. 48, Song cycle, Dichterliebe, sixteen songs from Heine's Buch der Lieder (1840)
Op. 49, Romanzen & Balladen volume II (3 songs) (1840)
Op. 51, Lieder und Gesänge volume II (5 songs) (1842)
Op. 53, Romanzen & Balladen volume III (3 songs) (1840)
Op. 55, 5 Lieder (partsongs) (1846)
Op. 57, Belsatzar, ballad (Heine) (1840)
Op. 59, 4 Gesänge (partsongs) (1846)
Op. 62, 3 Gesänge (partsongs with piano ad lib) (1847)
Op. 64, Romanzen & Balladen volume IV (3 songs) (1841–47)
Op. 65, Ritornelle in canonischen Weisen (7 canonic part songs) (1847)
Op. 67, Romanzen & Balladen volume I (5 partsongs) (1849)
Op. 69, Romanzen volume I (6 partsongs for women's voices) (1849)
Op. 74, Spanisches Liederspiel (3 songs, 5 duets, 2 quartets) (1849)
Op. 75, Romanzen & Balladen volume II (5 partsongs) (1849)
Op. 77, Lieder und Gesänge volume III (5 songs) (1841–50)
Op. 78, 4 duets (soprano and tenor) (1849)
Op. 79, Liederalbum für die Jugend (29 songs) (1849)
Op. 83, 3 Gesänge (1850)
Op. 87, Ballad, "Der Handschuh" (Schiller) (1850)
Op. 89, 6 Gesänge (1850)
Op. 90, 6 Gedichte (1850)
Op. 91, Romanzen volume II (6 partsongs for women's voices) (1849)
Op. 95, 3 Gesänge (1849)
Op. 96, Lieder und Gesänge volume IV (1850)
Op. 101, Minnespiel (4 songs, 2 duets, 2 quartets) (1849)
Op. 103, Mädchenlieder (2 women's voices and piano) (1851)
Op. 104, 7 Lieder (1851)
Op. 106, Declamation with piano, "Schön Hedwig" (1849)
Op. 107, 6 Gesänge (1851–52)
Op. 114, 3 Lieder für 3 Frauenstimmen (1853)
Op. 117, 4 Husarenlieder (1851)
Op. 119, 3 Gedichte (1851)
Op. 122, Declamation with piano: "Ballade vom Heideknaben" and "Die Flüchlinge" (1852)
Op. 125, 5 heitere Gesänge (1851)
Op. 127, 5 Lieder und Gesänge (1850–51)
Op. 135, Gedichte der Königin Maria Stuart (1852)
Op. 137, Jagdlieder (5 partsongs for men's voices with 4 horns ad lib) [1849]
Op. 138, Spanische Liebeslieder (1849)
Op. 142, 4 Gesänge (1852)
Op. 145, Romanzen & Balladen Vol. III (5 partsongs) (1849–51)
Op. 146, Romanzen & Balladen Vol. IV (5 partsongs) (1849)

Also the choral works of which I only know the gorgeous Nachtlied (again thanks go to Luke.)

Op. 50, Das Paradies und die Peri, oratorio (1841–43)
Op. 71, Adventlied for soprano, chorus and orchestra (1848)
Op. 81, Genoveva, opera (1848)
Op. 84, Beim Abschied zu singen for chorus & winds (1848)
Op. 93, Motet, "Verzweifle nicht im Schmerzenstal" for double chorus and organ ad lib (1849, orchestrated 1852)
Op. 98a, Songs from Wilhelm Meister
Op. 98b, Requiem for Mignon for solo voices, chorus and orchestra (1849)
Op. 108, Nachtlied for chorus and orchestra (1849)
Op. 112, Der Rose Pilgerfahrt oratorio (1851)
Op. 115, Overture and incidental music, Manfred (1848–49)
Op. 116, Der Königssohn (Uhland), for solos, chorus and orchestra (1851)
Op. 123, Festival overture on the Rheinweinlied for orchestra and chorus (1853)
Op. 139, "Des Sängers Fluch" (Uhland) for solo voice, chorus and orchestra (1852)
Op. 140, "Vom Pagen und der Königstochter" for solo voice, chorus, and orchestra (1852)
Op. 141, 4 doppelchörige gesänge (partsongs) (1849)
Op. 143, "Das Glück von Edenhall" (Uhland) for solo voice, chorus, and orchestra (1853)[1]
Op. 144, "Neujahrslied" for chorus and orchestra (1849–50)
Op. 147, Mass (1852)
Op. 148, Requiem (1852)
WoO 3, Scenes from Goethe's Faust, oratorio (1844–1853)[1]

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Franco on October 14, 2009, 06:18:43 PM
Hyperion has a Schumann lieder cycle which is on the same level of excellence as the Schubert set.  I have about 7 or 8 of the Schumann CDs, and am not sure how many there are, but I would assume it to be complete, so you can find all those songs in nice recordings by looking there.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Orpheus on June 07, 2010, 10:43:32 PM
Happy, happy, happy 200th birthday, dear Robert! :)

(http://slosymphony.com/Library/images/Composers/robert-schumann.jpg)

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/107/299802008_a5fb2c9029.jpg)

Many thanks for your heavenly and passionate music!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: George on June 08, 2010, 02:30:39 AM
Indeed. Happy birthday Florestan, and Eusebius!  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Florestan on October 28, 2010, 09:29:24 AM
Indeed. Happy birthday Florestan, and Eusebius!  :)
A (rather) belated but (very) heartfelt thanks, dear friend!  8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on November 01, 2010, 05:04:16 PM
Started a comparison of Schumann's Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, Op. 54 for ukrneal.  Gave these two a listen so far:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/66/5a/2e5ae03ae7a04327d9a9e110.L._AA300_.jpg)

Here, the orchestra dominates, or at its most distant point, stays blended with the Zimerman.  As about as smooth and rich as sound as one would want, IMO.  Sometimes a bit too thick with the sound itself, but not bad for a time to time listen.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Llh4n1tYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Walter Gieseking absolutely sparkles here and his performance is energetic when the moment is right and has a masterful approach of how hard to hit the keys througout which makes this a very memorable performance.  The BPO under Furtwängler is not to be missed here either.  However, the historical sound may not be for all.

Tomorrow I will take a listen to:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517I4o3I94L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 02, 2010, 12:11:11 AM
Started a comparison of Schumann's Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, Op. 54 for ukrneal.  Gave these two a listen so far:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/66/5a/2e5ae03ae7a04327d9a9e110.L._AA300_.jpg)

Here, the orchestra dominates, or at its most distant point, stays blended with the Zimerman.  As about as smooth and rich as sound as one would want, IMO.  Sometimes a bit too thick with the sound itself, but not bad for a time to time listen.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Llh4n1tYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Walter Gieseking absolutely sparkles here and his performance is energetic when the moment is right and has a masterful approach of how hard to hit the keys througout which makes this a very memorable performance.  The BPO under Furtwängler is not to be missed here either.  However, the historical sound may not be for all.

Tomorrow I will take a listen to:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517I4o3I94L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Interesting. I only have the Andsnes recording (BPO here too with Jansons), but Zimerman interests me in several recordings of the majors (including Chopin and Liszt as well). The idea of 'too thick' concerns me in Schumann as he has a tendency towards this naturally, but wasn't sure if I was over-interpreting your words. What did you think of Zimerman's playing? I also found it interesting that with the Karajan recording you focused on the orchestra and overall sound more, but on the soloist more with Furtwangler. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it.  Can't wait to hear what you think of Perahia/Abbado/BPO, which should be a good match (one would think).
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on November 03, 2010, 08:02:05 PM
Here are the four I have listed in my order of favorite to least with respect to perfomances and some sound notes included:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Llh4n1tYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Walter Gieseking is the most memorable of these four performances IMO.  His ability, as stated above, to strike the keys with force and delicacy is wonderful. Furtwängler drives the BPO at a fire pace at the outset and their presence is felt wholeheartedly while not diminishing Gieseking's performance.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51erV4pQDQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This was almost my number one choice, as Lipatti's rendering is also amazing.....however, his touch I believe is hampered by the folks at EMI who believe that too much noise reduction for historical recordings is a good thing.  Would love to hear this if Mark Obert-Thorn got a hold of it.  However, for less than $3 used on Amazon, snatch one up.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/66/5a/2e5ae03ae7a04327d9a9e110.L._AA300_.jpg)
Enjoyed this one less and less after listening to the other two over the past couple days.  If recommending a non-historical recording unlike the above two, I would have to dig elsewhere than in my collection.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517I4o3I94L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Blah.  Poor sound and less than a memorable performance.  I enjoyed this recording at some point, but compared to the first two listed it is like drinking flat 7-Up.

Hope this helped,  ukrneal.  It sure was fun revisiting this piece!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Wanderer on November 03, 2010, 11:37:23 PM
The Zimerman/Karajan performance I rate very low. Too self-indulgent, faux-luxuriant, languid to the point of distorting the melodic flow (Zimerman's faults); and Karajan conducting beautifully, but as if it were some slow Wagnerian overture. Still bearably passable, if one is in the right mood, but hardly a good rendition. The Grieg on the same disc is much worse. Caveat emptor!

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 03, 2010, 11:51:42 PM
Here are the four I have listed in my order of favorite to least with respect to perfomances and some sound notes included:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Llh4n1tYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Walter Gieseking is the most memorable of these four performances IMO.  His ability, as stated above, to strike the keys with force and delicacy is wonderful. Furtwängler drives the BPO at a fire pace at the outset and their presence is felt wholeheartedly while not diminishing Gieseking's performance.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51erV4pQDQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This was almost my number one choice, as Lipatti's rendering is also amazing.....however, his touch I believe is hampered by the folks at EMI who believe that too much noise reduction for historical recordings is a good thing.  Would love to hear this if Mark Obert-Thorn got a hold of it.  However, for less than $3 used on Amazon, snatch one up.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/66/5a/2e5ae03ae7a04327d9a9e110.L._AA300_.jpg)
Enjoyed this one less and less after listening to the other two over the past couple days.  If recommending a non-historical recording unlike the above two, I would have to dig elsewhere than in my collection.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517I4o3I94L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Blah.  Poor sound and less than a memorable performance.  I enjoyed this recording at some point, but compared to the first two listed it is like drinking flat 7-Up.

Hope this helped,  ukrneal.  It sure was fun revisiting this piece!
Thanks for that! I like doing similar comparisons. Sometimes knowing what not to buy is even more important than choosing the 'right' one!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on November 04, 2010, 03:08:18 AM
The Zimerman/Karajan performance I rate very low. Too self-indulgent, faux-luxuriant, languid to the point of distorting the melodic flow (Zimerman's faults); and Karajan conducting beautifully, but as if it were some slow Wagnerian overture. Still bearably passable, if one is in the right mood, but hardly a good rendition. The Grieg on the same disc is much worse. Caveat emptor!

Good points on the Schumann.  The trap for many is if this is the first one they buy they settle in thinking that this is how it "should" sound.  Only after other comparisons will they find out "what" can be done with this piece to make it truly a top-notch composition.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 10:19:53 AM
Been letting this spin in the car for the past few days....Harnoncourt is a favorite at this end.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FkSCXzo7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 11:56:48 AM
Been letting this spin in the car for the past few days....Harnoncourt is a favorite at this end.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FkSCXzo7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I found Harnoncourt's cycle spectacular in parts, but a bit uneven.  One I would never want to do without.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Leon on November 10, 2010, 11:17:01 AM
Following on some recent posts, a recording of the Piano Concerto Opus 54 with Argerich and Harnoncourt:

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/92/56/00115692_medium.jpeg)

Coupled with the VC by Kremer - a disc I don't listen to nearly enough.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on November 10, 2010, 06:47:06 PM
Following on some recent posts, a recording of the Piano Concerto Opus 54 with Argerich and Harnoncourt:

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/92/56/00115692_medium.jpeg)

Coupled with the VC by Kremer - a disc I don't listen to nearly enough.

I was just going to ask for recs about the PC and do enjoy Argerich coupled with probably my favorite, or at least "go to" conductor.  I will put it on my wish-list.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: jlaurson on November 27, 2010, 03:06:15 AM
Schumann & the Pedal Piano

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/dip-your-ears-no-106.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/dip-your-ears-no-106.html)

Schumann's works for organ (or rather the pedal piano) were recently
re-released on Audite in a recording written about over at WETA
(Schumann From Many Angles (Pedal Piano / Organ) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2164)). Now Berlin
Classics has released a beautifully produced new disc with Mario
Hospach-Martini who is, like Andreas Rothkopf on the Audite recording,
also playing a historic Walcker organ, but the 1888 instrument in the
Stadtkirche in Winterthur, not the slightly earlier instrument in Hoffen-
heim. No one suggests that two recordings of these works are
necessary (though the beauty of them, also touched upon in "Dip Your
Ears, No. 101") makes listening to them a very deserving affair. This
new recording gets mention because I am surprised just how much
more enjoyment I derive from it...


Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Lethevich on March 19, 2011, 11:31:22 AM
How many movements - if any - does the Humoreske have? I've seen it presented in 1, 4, 5 and 6 sections across various recordings.

Also: BUMP ;D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: PaulSC on March 19, 2011, 12:11:04 PM
The ambiguities are impossible to resolve. In the ed. by C. Schumann (http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/a/ac/IMSLP00716-Schumann_-_Humoreske__Op_20.pdf), there are four sections demarcated by "final" barlines. But there are many additional sections denoted by lighter double barlines, and some of these sections involve marked changes of character (and tempo and key) without unifying reprises. Additionally, a few of the subsections are given centered titles; these are the most likely spots to be treated as additional distinct movements; but it's all open to interpretation.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Lethevich on March 19, 2011, 12:17:01 PM
Eek, thanks for the clarification. I guess I'll leave each division sans numeral.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: PaulSC on March 19, 2011, 05:04:36 PM
Well my reply was mostly from memory -- I played the piece when much younger. Having just perused the score again, I feel I may have overstated the "problem." There's only one spot where a title follows a light double barline, at the head of the concluding section, "Zum Beschluss." (Does that translate loosely to "in conclusion"?)

I'm guessing your 4-track recording(s) look like this, consistent with the final barlines:
   
1. Einfach — Sehr rasch und leicht — Wie im Anfang
2. Hastig — Nach und nach immer lebhafter und stärker — Adagio
3. Einfach und zart — Intermezzo
4. Innig — Sehr lebhaft — Mit einigem Pomp — Zum Beschluss

5-track recordings probably split off the Zum Beschluss,* and 6-track recordings make an additional break who-knows-where.

* EDIT: It's not that simple, e.g. Kuerti's five tracks are:
1. Einfach; Sehr Rasch Und Leicht
2. Hastig
3. Einfach Und Zart; Intermezzo
4. Innig
5. Sehr Lebhaft; Mit Einigen Pomp; Zum Beschluss; Allegro
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 19, 2011, 11:30:44 PM
Well my reply was mostly from memory -- I played the piece when much younger. Having just perused the score again, I feel I may have overstated the "problem." There's only one spot where a title follows a light double barline, at the head of the concluding section, "Zum Beschluss." (Does that translate loosely to "in conclusion"?)

I'm guessing your 4-track recording(s) look like this, consistent with the final barlines:
   
1. Einfach — Sehr rasch und leicht — Wie im Anfang
2. Hastig — Nach und nach immer lebhafter und stärker — Adagio
3. Einfach und zart — Intermezzo
4. Innig — Sehr lebhaft — Mit einigem Pomp — Zum Beschluss

5-track recordings probably split off the Zum Beschluss,* and 6-track recordings make an additional break who-knows-where.

* EDIT: It's not that simple, e.g. Kuerti's five tracks are:
1. Einfach; Sehr Rasch Und Leicht
2. Hastig
3. Einfach Und Zart; Intermezzo
4. Innig
5. Sehr Lebhaft; Mit Einigen Pomp; Zum Beschluss; Allegro

In the six track, you get Sehr Lebhaft and Zum Beschluss separated.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Lethevich on March 20, 2011, 02:32:55 AM
Interesting - so there seems to be an agreement that there are at least the three initial movements, and only after this do they diverge? If they are only making differing subdivisions of the same final "movement" then perhaps that does validate its presence after all - some recordings, after all, do sub-divide the finale of Beethoven's 9th simply because they feel it slightly unwieldy, although I suppose there are no such ambiguities in the composer's intent there.

Also, Schumann's intent is not followed nowadays in other pieces too - he considered his piano concerto a two movement work, for example, with the "Intermezzo & Rondo" joined, so perhaps a little editorial intervention could perhaps have a place in the Humoreske as well. He did tend to have some "unbalanced" movement timings in other pieces (f.eg. part 2 of Kreisleriana), so perhaps considering that final large section worth sub-dividing is trying to tame the piece a little too much.

Edit: Feinberg is winning the draw so far, by the way ;)

(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6439/clipboard01oh.png)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on May 10, 2011, 07:44:13 PM
I don't get Schumann. What's the fuss?

I get the Cello Concerto. It has that perfect minor key Romantic Sound. What's not to like?

I think I like the SQs on ECM,... but, the rest, I dunno,... the Piano Quintet sounds well made enough, but it's just sort of snappy,... I mean, I thought Schumann was the Poster Child for... whaaat?... angst? Does he just have a spurt around 1842, and then, what the Late Piano Trios aren't all that?

Why do I always picture Schumann living in a tree, like a Keebler elf? Is he really that mystically pixi-ish? Am I confusing him with Mendelssohn?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Lethevich on May 10, 2011, 08:37:19 PM
Schumann might perhaps seem difficult because he didn't lapse into cliché - he was a supporter of new and progressive music, but chose to write in a style which retained a classical touch. He didn't look forward to Wagner any more than he looked back to Beethoven and Mendelssohn - or to his contemporaries Chopin and Brahms - yet still wrote highly unique, relevent and often progressive music (such as his opera Genoveva, which is more symphonic than any of its time, save Wagner).

The hallmark I associate him with is not a profusion of Romantic angst, but its temperance with many other qualities that he also mastered - a sense of the mystery of nature and literature, the child's perception of the world, and fusing this naivety into even his "heroic" works to create works with a great essence of humanity and warmth. His often discussed difficulties with playing the piano at a virtuoso level I feel are reflected in his compositions: to compare him with Mendelssohn, part of Schumann's appeal to me is that he makes the wrong choices where Mendelssohn makes the right ones. His scherzos can sound clumsy at times, but they entirely represent the spirit which inspired their composition, and without them they would be inferior works.

His piano quintet and quartets are perhaps more 'professional' than his quartets and especially piano trios, but both are well tailored to his sound world. He was the finest lieder writer between Schubert and Brahms (and I consider him easily the equal of the latter), is solo piano music is like nothing else in its sense of high drama and fantasy.

There were many Romantics who wrote music similar in concept to Schumann - nature-inspired works, children's music - but only Schumann had the ability to raise these works from potboilers into great compositions, probably because his thoughts were so close to the subjects. "Naive" pieces such as Carnaval or Davidsbündlertänze do not reveal a "serious" composer having a little fun writing light music as other composers might, but they contain the essence of what makes Schumann so worthwhile.

If you want to hear him at his most stormily Romantic, try Kreisleriana - but though this is one of his finest compositions, it's only part of the story. His life was somewhat more domestic than Berlioz, a similarly biographical Romantic, and this sense of the intimate, or the mind-meeting-mind dominates much of his music. I'll stfu now, as I can't seem to sum this up.

Edit: in retrospect I feel as though do a disservice to Schumann's intelligence in the previous description - he was a highly urbane and educated person, the combination of this and all the other qualities mentioned makes him one of the most unscrutable of the "great" composers.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on May 11, 2011, 05:41:32 AM
Schumann might perhaps seem difficult because he didn't lapse into cliché - he was a supporter of new and progressive music, but chose to write in a style which retained a classical touch. He didn't look forward to Wagner any more than he looked back to Beethoven and Mendelssohn - or to his contemporaries Chopin and Brahms - yet still wrote highly unique, relevent and often progressive music (such as his opera Genoveva, which is more symphonic than any of its time, save Wagner).

The hallmark I associate him with is not a profusion of Romantic angst, but its temperance with many other qualities that he also mastered - a sense of the mystery of nature and literature, the child's perception of the world, and fusing this naivety into even his "heroic" works to create works with a great essence of humanity and warmth. His often discussed difficulties with playing the piano at a virtuoso level I feel are reflected in his compositions: to compare him with Mendelssohn, part of Schumann's appeal to me is that he makes the wrong choices where Mendelssohn makes the right ones. His scherzos can sound clumsy at times, but they entirely represent the spirit which inspired their composition, and without them they would be inferior works.

His piano quintet and quartets are perhaps more 'professional' than his quartets and especially piano trios, but both are well tailored to his sound world. He was the finest lieder writer between Schubert and Brahms (and I consider him easily the equal of the latter), is solo piano music is like nothing else in its sense of high drama and fantasy.

There were many Romantics who wrote music similar in concept to Schumann - nature-inspired works, children's music - but only Schumann had the ability to raise these works from potboilers into great compositions, probably because his thoughts were so close to the subjects. "Naive" pieces such as Carnaval or Davidsbündlertänze do not reveal a "serious" composer having a little fun writing light music as other composers might, but they contain the essence of what makes Schumann so worthwhile.

If you want to hear him at his most stormily Romantic, try Kreisleriana - but though this is one of his finest compositions, it's only part of the story. His life was somewhat more domestic than Berlioz, a similarly biographical Romantic, and this sense of the intimate, or the mind-meeting-mind dominates much of his music. I'll stfu now, as I can't seem to sum this up.

I think I understand a little better now,... you're making sense.

Can someone else pick up this ball? I'm intrigued.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: DavidW on May 11, 2011, 06:00:24 AM
I also can be surprised by how snappy the quintets sound when compared to other works of Schumann.  But you know his music can sound bipolar, reflecting his personality.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Que on May 12, 2011, 08:54:11 AM
Just pointing out an interesting and promising looking new issue! :)
Would this finally be a satisfying complete piano trios set? (And yes, I definitely don't regard the Beaux Arts recording as such...)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5099909418028.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scarpia on May 12, 2011, 09:30:35 AM
Just pointing out an interesting and promising looking new issue! :)
Would this finally be a satisfying complete piano trios set? (And yes, I definitely don't regard the Beaux Arts recording as such...)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5099909418028.jpg)

Don't know what your issue is with the Beaux Arts, but with that set and the superb recordings by the Florestan Trio on Hyperion I feel the works are well represented in my collection.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Que on May 12, 2011, 10:25:21 AM
Don't know what your issue is with the Beaux Arts, but with that set and the superb recordings by the Florestan Trio on Hyperion I feel the works are well represented in my collection.

Good for you. :)

Q
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scarpia on May 12, 2011, 10:28:24 AM
Good for you. :)

Q
>:(
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2011, 11:03:10 AM
I like my Beaux Arts recording, and also my Florestans. I would be happy to hear someone else's take on it though. I am a fan (as much as I can be of a MI pianist) of Andsnes and I like Xtian Tetzlaff too. This would be a recording to check out. :)

8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2011, 02:09:09 PM
Just pointing out an interesting and promising looking new issue! :)
Would this finally be a satisfying complete piano trios set? (And yes, I definitely don't regard the Beaux Arts recording as such...)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5099909418028.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fO2FMEIcL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Well, I have the 2-CD set w/ BAT that include the Piano Trios, Piano Quartet, & Piano Quintet  (inserted above right) - the set above recommended appears to include more 'trio' works - are these transcriptions or just other less recorded compositions?  Plus, I'd certainly want the Quartet/Quintet - so 'how many' discs would be needed to replace all of this 2-disc BAT compilation?  Just trying to obtain some comments & recommendations -  :D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scarpia on May 12, 2011, 02:12:10 PM
Well, I have the 2-CD set w/ BAT that include the Piano Trios, Piano Quartet, & Piano Quintet  (inserted above right) - the set above recommended appears to include more 'trio' works - are these transcriptions or just other less recorded compositions?  Plus, I'd certainly want the Quartet/Quintet - so 'how many' discs would be needed to replace all of this 2-disc BAT compilation?  Just trying to obtain some comments & recommendations -  :D

The new recording contains a transcription of some etudes for "pedal piano" that is unique.  Other than that it is the standard piano trios and phantasy trio.  You can check it out easily, it has been on sale on Amazon for a while (and is not particularly expensive).

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Que on May 12, 2011, 08:50:20 PM
>:(

 :-*

Well, please excuse me for still looking for THE set.

Schumann, like Brahms, is a hard composer "to get" in terms of character and spirit of the music. The BAT set did not satisfy me, sounds rather wooden and uninspired in my ears. Aside from the general issues I have with the style of the BAT in later years. I left the Florestan Trio behind me a while ago after experiencing their Brahms set, finding their general style simply too "pretty". But maybe I should give their Schumann set a chance... :)

Best performances I've experienced sofar have been the live recordings of Casals et al at the Prades Festival (M&A). As for individual trio recordings the Casals/Thibaud/Cortot op. 63 is tremendous, Rubinstein et al in op. 63 is close, but no cigar (the complete Brahms trios are a treasure though).

Oh, and the sets by the Borodin (Chandos), Trio Fontenay (Teldec Warner) and Copenhagen Trio (Kontrapunkt) - hardly worth mentioning. The Abegg-Trio (Tacet) is still a blank spot for me.

Q
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brahmsian on May 13, 2011, 04:52:36 AM
I just think Que has an issue with BAT in general, regardless of composer.  Me thinks if BAT were HIP (a HIP BAT), he would think they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: DavidW on May 13, 2011, 04:56:34 AM
I just think Que has an issue with BAT in general, regardless of composer.  Me thinks if BAT were HIP (a HIP BAT), he would think they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Yeah but if BAT was HIP, they wouldn't sound like BAT! :D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on May 13, 2011, 04:58:47 AM
Don't know what your issue is with the Beaux Arts, but with that set and the superb recordings by the Florestan Trio on Hyperion I feel the works are well represented in my collection.

TetzLeif's Bartok/Virgin disc blew me away,... and Tetz's Schnabel Solo Sonata blew me away,... so,... when I saw this, I was like, I don't even care if I like the music! ;D How can this not be Special (as long as the cello-Tetz is good!)?


Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on May 13, 2011, 05:02:18 AM
I have a feeling I'm gearing up for a Schumann-a-thon,... but all I have is the Cello Concerto. There are a few Chamber Boxes out there (all on EMI?, haha),... or, is piecemeal the way to go? It seems to me that the recordings issue should be settled with Schumann, no? Everything in perfect performances and recordings? Is this a budding bromance?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scarpia on May 13, 2011, 05:04:43 AM
I have a feeling I'm gearing up for a Schumann-a-thon,... but all I have is the Cello Concerto. There are a few Chamber Boxes out there (all on EMI?, haha),... or, is piecemeal the way to go? It seems to me that the recordings issue should be settled with Schumann, no? Everything in perfect performances and recordings? Is this a budding bromance?

For chamber music this is an interesting alternative.


Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brahmsian on May 13, 2011, 05:06:30 AM
I have a feeling I'm gearing up for a Schumann-a-thon,... but all I have is the Cello Concerto. There are a few Chamber Boxes out there (all on EMI?, haha),... or, is piecemeal the way to go? It seems to me that the recordings issue should be settled with Schumann, no? Everything in perfect performances and recordings? Is this a budding bromance?

You need more Schumann in your life.  He was a quirky guy like yourself, I would think that he could potentially be your soulmate composer.

You need all of the concertos, chamber music and all the piano music.......as a start!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on May 13, 2011, 05:09:33 AM
You need more Schumann in your life.  He was a quirky guy like yourself, I would think that he could potentially be your soulmate composer.

You need all of the concertos, chamber music and all the piano music.......as a start!

The guy had hair issues! :-X
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2011, 05:10:25 AM
You need more Schumann in your life.  He was a quirky guy like yourself, I would think that he could potentially be your soulmate composer.

You need all of the concertos, chamber music and all the piano music.......as a start!

Seconded.

Hey, snyprrr, get his Violin Concerto... you know, the one whose main theme was whispered to him by angels.  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Que on May 13, 2011, 09:37:48 PM
I just think Que has an issue with BAT in general, regardless of composer.  Me thinks if BAT were HIP (a HIP BAT), he would think they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Well, yes and no. :) Although I don't hold the BAT in the same esteem as (many) others - apparently a sensitive matter for which I've here occassionally been snubbed at 8) - I do treasure their 1st Beethoven recordings (1965, still with Daniel Guilet) and have enjoyed their Schubert recordings (1969). Things moved in a for me less satisfactory way after that.

I would love more period instrument recordings of Schumann's chamber music! :) La Gaia Scienza's (Winter & Winter) rendition of the piano quintet rocks, their recording of the piano quartet is unfortunately spoiled in a Uri Cane mix. :-\

Q
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on May 14, 2011, 08:36:51 AM
I was listening to the oboe piece, the clarinet piece, the viola piece, etc., and, is it right to say that Schumann was the first real Romantic Composer?(Chopin?), meaning, he seems to be writing fantasy pieces, or, stream of consciousness pieces, rather than strict sonata-form type pieces? Where performance practice issues begin to become a Romantic/Interpretive issue(rubato)?

I'm just thinking that the technology for freedom of expression wasn't around in Schumann's day. Wouldn't he have benefitted from all the 20th Century's innovations, in terms of giving life to his imagination?

I feel like I'm on a Mozart/Schubert/Mendelssohn/Schumann/Brahms/Saint-Saens/Dvorak Chamber Music Goose Chase, trying to find my fit. I'm listening on YouTube, trying not to have a fit of CDCDCD. I just don't know if I'm up for the Romantic Era.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scarpia on May 14, 2011, 09:06:55 AM
I was listening to the oboe piece, the clarinet piece, the viola piece, etc., and, is it right to say that Schumann was the first real Romantic Composer?(Chopin?), meaning, he seems to be writing fantasy pieces, or, stream of consciousness pieces, rather than strict sonata-form type pieces? Where performance practice issues begin to become a Romantic/Interpretive issue(rubato)?

That's hardly a criteria.  Mozart also wrote fantasies (typically for piano solo) and I don't see anyone calling him the first romantic composer.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Coopmv on May 14, 2011, 10:19:53 AM
Anything in HIP here Gurn?

Bill,

This mega DG box I bought last October, which is still in shrink-wrap, has all the Schumann Symphonies conducted by John Eliot Gardiner.  They should be interesting as I already have many different versions of Schumann 4 Symphonies but they are all non-HIP ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K0bqHMdaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: abidoful on May 14, 2011, 11:40:41 AM
Technically Mendelssohn was the first big Romantic.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: DavidW on May 14, 2011, 11:42:03 AM
Technically Mendelssohn was the first big Romantic.

What about Schubert?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: abidoful on May 14, 2011, 12:38:55 PM
What about Schubert?
Schubert definately has much a romantic in him  but he  had still strong ties to classisicm (was a pupil of Salier) Maybe he was 3/4 romantic and 1/4 a classicist. Or the other way around. In a way he was a "bridge" between classicism and romanticism. But so was also Beethoven in many ways :) Well, sometimes it is difficult to "nametag" an artist. It's also difficult later in music history with composers like Sibelius, Scriabin and Szymanowski who are sometimes considered either "romantics" or "modernists". Sometimes it is really a matter of intrepetation.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on May 15, 2011, 09:10:26 AM
Just pointing out an interesting and promising looking new issue! :)
Would this finally be a satisfying complete piano trios set? (And yes, I definitely don't regard the Beaux Arts recording as such...)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5099909418028.jpg)

Q

As to Tetzlaff, I just saw that Gringolts does the PTs and VSs,... the samples indicate a hearty personality, what do you think? I say this also in response the the apparent fawning over the Widmann/ECM set.

Also, whatchall think about the Zehetmair SQ/ECM disc?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Coopmv on May 15, 2011, 09:36:52 AM
Schubert definately has much a romantic in him  but he  had still strong ties to classisicm (was a pupil of Salier) Maybe he was 3/4 romantic and 1/4 a classicist. Or the other way around. In a way he was a "bridge" between classicism and romanticism. But so was also Beethoven in many ways :) Well, sometimes it is difficult to "nametag" an artist. It's also difficult later in music history with composers like Sibelius, Scriabin and Szymanowski who are sometimes considered either "romantics" or "modernists". Sometimes it is really a matter of intrepetation.

Richard Wagner may be the biggest romantic ...
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: DavidW on May 15, 2011, 10:21:43 AM
Richard Wagner may be the biggest romantic ...

I think he was actually kind of short... ;D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: abidoful on May 15, 2011, 10:36:42 AM
Richard Wagner may be the biggest romantic ...
Agreed. In a  b-i-g-g-e-r  t-h-a-n  l-i-f-e  sort of dimensions.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on May 15, 2011, 10:55:07 AM
Schumann,... however!! >:D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: abidoful on May 15, 2011, 11:15:14 AM
Take it easy... :o
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on May 16, 2011, 09:36:32 AM
Take it easy... :o
;D

I'd still like to keep RS in the current Top5. So far, Schumann's Chamber Music is speaking to me a little more than Brahms (does Brahms seem to much like a stern schoolteacher compared to RS?). Maybe Brahms has the 'everything perfect' effect, whereas Schumann has the quirks?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: abidoful on May 16, 2011, 11:41:35 AM
;D
(does Brahms seem to much like a stern schoolteacher compared to RS?). Maybe Brahms has the 'everything perfect' effect, whereas Schumann has the quirks?

I don't know... hm....I have had some issues with Schumann- like with bananas, but i'm not going in to that now - I used to throw up when ever I thought about Schumann (!). His music seemed so excessively sweet. There wasn't that kind of ice-queenish quality of Chopin, or his masculinity. His music scented irritatingly like home made buns...

Later his music has charmed me, won me over so to speak and I think it was INDEED HIS CHAMBER MUSIC that made it. Especially the slow movement of the Piano Quartet which in this very day IMO is one of the most achingly beatiful slow movements.
Yeah I have come to appreciate this unique, open, naked, lyrical and fragile way of his music.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: snyprrr on May 16, 2011, 12:03:37 PM
His music scented irritatingly like home made buns...

hahahahaha!!!!!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brian on May 16, 2011, 01:04:06 PM
In the recent interview posted elsewhere, Polish conductor Antoni Wit says that his Schumann CDs (the four symphonies, piano concerto, Scenes from Faust) are among the proudest achievements of his career.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: eyeresist on May 16, 2011, 08:35:39 PM
Richard Wagner may be the biggest romantic ...

Apparently Delius was the tallest composer. Probably not the heaviest, though. Jan Ladislav Dussek was probably the fattest - couldn't reach the keyboard by the end, apparently.

Massively OT, sorry.
 
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scarpia on May 16, 2011, 08:39:59 PM
Apparently Delius was the tallest composer. Probably not the heaviest, though. Jan Ladislav Dussek was probably the fattest - couldn't reach the keyboard by the end, apparently.

Rossini was the fattest, I thought.  There are supposedly two version of a certain Aria, because he dropped the paper and couldn't pick it up, so he had to start over.

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: abidoful on May 16, 2011, 10:17:32 PM
Rossini was the fattest, I thought.  There are supposedly two version of a certain Aria, because he dropped the paper and couldn't pick it up, so he had to start over.
:D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brahmsian on May 17, 2011, 04:33:00 AM
Rossini was the fattest, I thought.

Handel wasn't far behind.  He probably had some pretty big "love handles"  *pun intended*
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: DavidW on May 17, 2011, 05:35:06 AM
Rossini was the fattest, I thought.  There are supposedly two version of a certain Aria, because he dropped the paper and couldn't pick it up, so he had to start over.

I think that's post of the day! :D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Florestan on May 17, 2011, 05:43:34 AM
I think that's post of the day! :D

Seconded.  :D ;D :D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: abidoful on May 17, 2011, 05:55:53 AM
Seconded.  :D ;D :D
Definately! (maybe it's funny coz I actually can relate to that :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ )
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Florestan on May 17, 2011, 05:58:36 AM
Definately! (maybe it's funny coz I actually can relate to that :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ )
But... if you have a good memory you shouldn't come up with two versions... simply pick up where you stopped.  ;D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: abidoful on May 17, 2011, 06:07:09 AM
But... if you have a good memory you shouldn't come up with two versions... simply pick up where you stopped.  ;D
HAha!! So that was the funny part for you!

But maybe he didn't want copy it excactly? It has been said about Chopin that- to the grief of modern urtexters- very often modiefied/wrote slightly differently some details in his works while making copies... :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brahmsian on June 23, 2011, 11:07:19 AM
For the first time in my classical music listening history, Mr. Schumann may grab the top prize in the month of June, as my most listened to composer.  He's always been in or very near the Top 10, but this month he is getting a lot of love from me!   :) 8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brahmsian on June 23, 2011, 11:37:32 AM
I'd be curious to know if Schumann is anyone's absolute favorite composer?  He isn't my absolute #1, but over the years he has slowly crept up the ladder.  He gets my vote for Mr. Romanticism (a la Mr. Universe, Arnold Schwartznegger).
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on June 23, 2011, 11:41:24 AM
Well, the only one I've known, whose absolute favorite composer is Schumann, is such a tiresome Schumann fanatic that the result is The Pink Harp Effect.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brahmsian on June 23, 2011, 11:43:13 AM
Well, the only one I've known, whose absolute favorite composer is Schumann, is such a tiresome Schumann fanatic that the result is The Pink Harp Effect.

My guess (and I could be wrong, Don), but if it wasn't for Bach, Schumann could be in the mix as next-in-line for the Bulldog.  Am I right, Don?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on June 23, 2011, 11:45:20 AM
Well, the chap I have in mind, for instance, owns that Beethoven was great, but he feels that Schumann was the greatest 19th-c. composer after Beethoven . . . .
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brahmsian on June 23, 2011, 11:46:36 AM
Well, the chap I have in mind, for instance, owns that Beethoven was great, but he feels that Schumann was the greatest 19th-c. composer after Beethoven . . . .

Is this individual still around?  :D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on June 23, 2011, 11:47:12 AM
Haven't seen him about lately, now you mention it . . . .
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Lethevich on June 23, 2011, 11:50:36 AM
I'd be curious to know if Schumann is anyone's absolute favorite composer?  He isn't my absolute #1, but over the years he has slowly crept up the ladder.  He gets my vote for Mr. Romanticism (a la Mr. Universe, Arnold Schwartznegger).

Haydn used to be my favourite, but Schumann has overtaken him by a small margin in the previous few years. I seem to love everything he wrote, and his chamber music is especially my favourite of any composer. Brahms may be 'greater' in this field, but I feel more connected when I hear Schumann's quartets, piano trios and other pieces - also those strange works such as Märchenbilder, Märchenerzählunge, etc. I like the sense of fantasy in his music, but also how he constantly wrote personal and confessional music even in his most public pieces.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bulldog on June 23, 2011, 11:57:51 AM
My guess (and I could be wrong, Don), but if it wasn't for Bach, Schumann could be in the mix as next-in-line for the Bulldog.  Am I right, Don?

If not for Bach, Schumann would be in the running for no. 1 along with Scriabin, Weinberg and Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on June 23, 2011, 12:12:26 PM
Free to a good home: the EMI two-fer of Muti conducting the symphonies and some overtures. (I like it all right, but not enough.) PM me if interested.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on June 23, 2011, 12:44:12 PM
Free to a good home: the EMI two-fer of Muti conducting the symphonies and some overtures. (I like it all right, but not enough.) PM me if interested.

Claimed
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Amfortas on September 12, 2011, 09:58:45 AM
There is an excellent performance of Schumann: DAS PARADIES UND DIE PERI on BBC3 this week:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b014fb67 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b014fb67)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: cilgwyn on September 12, 2011, 10:47:41 AM
Ye olde dolby cassette deck is recording it right NOW!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: cilgwyn on September 12, 2011, 12:32:53 PM
Done!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 12, 2011, 04:25:46 PM
Ye olde dolby cassette deck is recording it right NOW!

:D ;D



Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Geo Dude on September 20, 2011, 05:37:52 AM
Ah, Schumann!  He was in my top five composers before classical cycled out of my listening for a few years.  I'm on a massive Brahms kick right now, but perhaps he shall reattain his status once I can drag myself away from Brahms for a time.  The lieder, the solo piano (of course!), the chamber works...all great.  And I've discovered the violin concerto through this thread!  That said, I'm happy to see his chamber music getting some recognition here; I've always felt that it was underrated.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on September 29, 2011, 09:11:32 PM
Believe it not, today I heard Schumann's violin concerto for the very first time. Don't know why I never had listened to it before, maybe I thought his mental illness would have caused damage to his work. Well, turns out I was completely wrong. IT - IS - FREAKING - PERFECT! It might actually right now be my personal favorite violin concerto ever, even passing Sibelius, Brahms, Dvorak, Mendelssohn Beethoven and Tchaikovsky. This is incredibly underrated work and I can't believe I have been without it all these years.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: eyeresist on September 29, 2011, 10:00:49 PM
Believe it not, today I heard Schumann's violin concerto for the very first time. Don't know why I never had listened to it before, maybe I thought his mental illness would have caused damage to his work. Well, turns out I was completely wrong. IT - IS - FREAKING - PERFECT! It might actually right now be my personal favorite violin concerto ever, even passing Sibelius, Brahms, Dvorak, Mendelssohn Beethoven and Tchaikovsky. This is incredibly underrated work and I can't believe I have been without it all these years.

It is a great work, and it's a sign of the arbitrariness of our canon that it is still regarded as not quite worthy.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Cato on October 24, 2011, 05:06:43 PM
I caught about 10 minutes of the Schumann Third Symphony on the radio.  The performance was from the RCA set issued about 20 years ago with the Hanover Band conducted by Roy Goodman.

Does anyone have the entire set, or have you heard it?  I was very impressed with the clarity of this performance (at least the 10 minutes  I heard).  Amazon has 3 rave 5-star reviews for it.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: karlhenning on October 25, 2011, 06:02:01 AM
Gidon Kremer comes to Boston to play the Violin Concerto this weekend.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2011, 06:14:53 AM
Hanover Band conducted by Roy Goodman. Does anyone have the entire set...

I own it. One of my favorite Schumann cycles (along with Szell and Barenboim). The Hanover Band has a magnificent sound, the period horns especially impressive.

Sarge
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Cato on October 25, 2011, 10:33:51 AM
I own it. One of my favorite Schumann cycles (along with Szell and Barenboim). The Hanover Band has a magnificent sound, the period horns especially impressive.

Sarge

I have the famous Szell/Cleveland Orchestra cycle too.

Many thanks for the recommendation: I also was impressed by the smoothness of the horns and the way Goodman had them blending and fading in the slow movement: a dreamlike interpretation, at least in the section I heard.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 21, 2012, 12:58:12 PM
Am I right in thinking there is no thread dedicated to Schumann here on GMG? Well, I saw one thread, but that seemed more dedicated to naming Clara Schumann look-alikes....

I thought I better create a new one!

Listening to the 4th symphony now, a favourite work of mine.
Feel free to discuss your love for his work on this thread! :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 21, 2012, 01:18:38 PM
Excellent thread, Schumann was one of the most representative composers of the Romantic era! :)
His music is deeply passionate, impressive and powerfully emotional, full of nuances, but also brilliant and harmonic at the same time; his compositions are certainly very enjoyable!
Some of my favourite Schumann's works are the symphonies, Carnaval, Études Symphoniques, the Piano Concerto and Kinderszenen. I really adore Symphony No.4 too, maybe it's my favourite along with No.1.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 21, 2012, 01:23:26 PM
Excellent thread, Schumann was one of the most representative composers of the Romantic era! :)
His music is deeply passionate, impressive and powerfully emotional, full of shades, but also brilliant and harmonic at the same time; his compositions are certainly very enjoyable!
Some of my favourite Schumann's works are the symphonies, Carnaval, Études Symphoniques, the Piano Concerto and Kinderszenen. I really adore Symphony No.4 too, maybe it's my favourite along with No.1.

Thank you for posting Ilaria. Beautifully expressed again, and I completely agree with you.
Symphony no.4 is one of my favourites too. :) I also love the Piano Concerto, Carnaval, rest of the symphonies, piano quintet and Kinderszenen as well.

Is your favourite performance of no.4 the Karajan recording by any chance, Ilaria?  ;) I particularly love the Sawallisch and Bernstein (VPO) performances.

Many people seem to dislike Schumann which is something I don't quite understand. The music is beautiful, melodic, lyrical, passionate, powerful; so what is there not to love?!

Have a nice evening, Ilaria! :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mirror Image on February 21, 2012, 01:24:34 PM
Sorry to bust your bubble, but there's already a composer thread for Schumann:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,80.msg843.html#msg843
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 21, 2012, 01:29:15 PM
Thank you for posting Ilaria. Beautifully expressed again, and I completely agree with you.
Symphony no.4 is one of my favourites too. :) I also love the Piano Concerto, Carnaval, rest of the symphonies, piano quintet and Kinderszenen as well.

Is your favourite performance of no.4 the Karajan recording by any chance, Ilaria?  ;) I particularly love the Sawallisch and Bernstein (VPO) performances.

Many people seem to dislike Schumann which is something I don't quite understand. The music is beautiful, melodic, lyrical, passionate, powerful; so what is there not to love?!

Have a nice evening, Ilaria! :)
I like those versions. But my favorite so far is Vonk. He takes speeds I like and really does some nice things with the piece. When the contest thing is over, I will listen to it again. There are severall versions I have still not heard though, so will be interesting to see the versions I liked in the contest to see if I might want to acquire one of them.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 21, 2012, 01:33:00 PM
Sorry to bust your bubble, but there's already a composer thread for Schumann:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,80.msg843.html#msg843

Ah yes, I see now. How on earth could I miss it... had searched Schumann in the search bar several times and it didn't come up... :(
Sorry! ;)

Oh well, at least it has sparked a Schumann discussion again! :D

I like those versions. But my favorite so far is Vonk. He takes speeds I like and really does some nice things with the piece. When the contest thing is over, I will listen to it again. There are severall versions I have still not heard though, so will be interesting to see the versions I liked in the contest to see if I might want to acquire one of them.

I have not heard the Vonk yet, so will bear your recommendation in mind, thank you! Yes, I'll be interested to find out the versions I liked in the comparison contest. I also have many recordings yet to hear of the symphony.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Lethevich on February 21, 2012, 01:37:46 PM
Ah yes, I see now. How on earth could I miss it... had searched Schumann in the search bar several times and it didn't come up... :(
Sorry! ;)

This forum's search feature definitely needs the disclaimer "no guarantee to work" - it's why I began the composer index sticky. If you do want to search the forum I'd suggest Google's page index, but sadly I suppose that can't be restricted by forum section :(
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 21, 2012, 01:42:00 PM
Thank you for posting Ilaria. Beautifully expressed again, and I completely agree with you.
Symphony no.4 is one of my favourites too. :) I also love the Piano Concerto, Carnaval, rest of the symphonies, piano quintet and Kinderszenen as well.

Is your favourite performance of no.4 the Karajan recording by any chance, Ilaria?  ;) I particularly love the Sawallisch and Bernstein (VPO) performances.

Many people seem to dislike Schumann which is something I don't quite understand. The music is beautiful, melodic, lyrical, passionate, powerful; so what is there not to love?!

Have a nice evening, Ilaria! :)

As a matter of fact, it is ;) I've not listened to either the Sawallisch or the Bernstein yet, I may surely have a look at them (the Sawallisch is not with VPO, but Staatskapelle Dresden, right?)!

Yeah, I totally agree....matter of taste I suppose; many people seem to dislike Mahler (and worse, Wagner) too, and personally it's something which surprises me much more.....

Have a nice evening too, Daniel! :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 21, 2012, 01:51:17 PM
This forum's search feature definitely needs the disclaimer "no guarantee to work" - it's why I began the composer index sticky. If you do want to search the forum I'd suggest Google's page index, but sadly I suppose that can't be restricted by forum section :(

haha - Thanks for the advice, shall do that in the future. I'll also have a look in your composer index.

As a matter of fact, it is ;) I've not listened to either the Sawallisch or the Bernstein yet, I may surely have a look at them (the Sawallisch is not with VPO, but Staatskapelle Dresden, right?)!

Yeah, I totally agree....matter of taste I suppose; many people seem to dislike Mahler (and worse, Wagner) too, and personally it's something which surprises me much more.....

Have a nice evening too, Daniel! :)

How did I guess?! ;) I highly recommend both, hope you enjoyed them! Let us know! The Bernstein can be found on youtube by the way. I posted a link on facebook about it. Yes, the Sawallisch is with the Staatskapelle, the Bernstein is with the VPO.

I suppose....

Thank you! :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox-violin concerto in d-minor
Post by: Scion7 on February 22, 2012, 11:58:56 PM
I have it on CD by Kremer, Harnoncourt, Chamber Orchestra of Europe.
 
But, I would like to run across a copy of this that didn't break the bank (1974/1975), open image in new window:

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/1hhuv.jpg)

There's an interesting history about the concerto:

On September 21, 1853, Schumann entered into his daily record: "Have begun a piece for violin." On October 1, he noted that the "Concerto for Violin is finished," and by the third of the same month the piece was completely orchestrated. This record represents the last truly productive and happy time for the composer. He wished to have the Violin Concerto performed in Düsseldorf, but gave up his conducting post there, making such a concert nearly impossible. A concert tour and his production of music criticism made the planning of a performance a matter of secondary importance. Finally, the onset of his mental illness eliminated all hope of his programming the concerto, the saga of which continued long after the composer's death.

Shortly after completing the Violin Concerto, Schumann sent the piece to Joseph Joachim (1831-1907), asking if there were any passages that were "unplayable." Joachim, the concerto's intended recipient, was initially supportive of Schumann's efforts, but shortly after Schumann's death in 1856 he expressed his displeasure with "dreadful passages for the violin" to Clara Schumann. To this, Clara reacted by asking Joachim to re-write the last movement, which he never did. When Joachim finally did give a private performance of the concerto, in 1858 in Leipzig, Brahms found it so unsatisfactory that he elected not to include it in the Complete Edition of Schumann's Works, which he was then editing. Clara, Brahms, and Joachim decided the work should never be published.

Many years later, Joachim's son sold the manuscript of the concerto to the Prussian State Library, stipulating that the piece not be performed before the one-hundredth anniversary of Schumann's death. In 1937, Georg Schünemann found the manuscript, edited and published it despite the protests of Schumann's daughter, Eugenie. The concerto was first performed in Berlin by Georg Kulenkampff on November 26, 1937, and again on February 16, 1938, in London by Jelly D'Aranyi, Joachim's great-niece. Since its publication, critics' evaluations of the concerto have varied; most find the piece inferior.

In contrast to Schumann's other concertos, that for violin features a first movement built on the double exposition principal we find in Viennese Classical-era concertos. However, Schumann does not use the ritornello material as did his predecessors; he presents the secondary theme in a new key—the relative major (F major)—instead of reserving the modulation for the solo exposition as in most of the Viennese models. Thus, from the very beginning of the work we hear Schumann's "relaxed" approach to sonata form, in which tonal conflict is no longer of primary concern. When the solo part finally appears, it is with the first theme, without introductory flourishes and on the dominant. The developmental central section is not a "working out" (in a Beethovenian sense) but a transformation of thematic material, the repetitiveness of which Joachim found disturbing. The high point of the recapitulation is the return of the secondary subject in the solo part, which includes its own accompaniment of running sixteenth notes.

The brief second movement, in B flat major, features a beautiful theme that is similar to one Schumann (over a year later) thought was dictated to him in the asylum; Brahms would later write a set of variations on this theme. In the concerto, when Schumann recapitulates this theme, it is a third lower and in the minor mode, lending it greater poignancy. The Finale is a polonaise with a vivacious opening that drives to a bright close on D major. As a unifying device, Schumann accompanies the second subject with a variation of the opening measures of the second movement.   -- CLASSICAL ARCHIVES

Overall I quite like the piece, but there are places here and there where I could see Clara/Joachim/Brahms
feeling like it didn't reflect well on Robert.  Brahms-the-perfectionist sort of got in the way here.
Glad that publisher went ahead and issued it over the objections of Schumann's daughter.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox-Piano Quintet & Quartet vinyl
Post by: Scion7 on February 23, 2012, 01:31:32 AM
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/ds23b.jpg) open image in new window full-size

I admit, when I saw this LP in college, I bought it due to the wonderful packaging.
Ariola/Eurodisc 201 084-366, recorded 1979, 1980.
The LP has a thick paper one-sided insert in English with notes by Kroher,
basically a repeat of the back cover, which is in German.
The pressing is better than Angel but not up to Philips/DG.
But it turned out to be a magnificent album.  I've seen a Jorg Demus/Vienna Chamber Ensemble CD for Mozart,
but as far as I could find, this one has not been issued on CD.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 08, 2012, 01:41:46 AM
I've just been listening to the bis recording of the 3rd and 4th symphonies in the Mahler reorchestration.

I'm amazed by how much better they sound than the originals! (though I admit I am a great Mahler fan)

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on April 15, 2012, 08:24:04 AM
(http://s.dsimg.com/image/R-3372706-1327816411.jpeg)

Rolling out these two on a Columbia 6-eye mono lp.  Very nice indeed.

Disc of these performances here?

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=10915&name_role1=1&name_id2=1987&name_role2=2&bcorder=21&comp_id=696
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mirror Image on October 17, 2012, 03:52:02 PM
Am I the only one here that thinks that Schumann's Violin Concerto is highly underrated? I also really enjoy Schumann's Piano Concerto. I own several performances of this and I was listening to Argerich/Harnoncourt earlier this afternoon and really enjoyed. It had been quite some time since I heard it and the VC.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on November 03, 2012, 01:42:29 AM
Am I the only one here that thinks that Schumann's Violin Concerto is highly underrated?

No. I agree with you, it is an awesome work. I posted about it a year ago.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Wanderer on November 03, 2012, 02:36:55 AM
Am I the only one here that thinks that Schumann's Violin Concerto is highly underrated?

God no, some of us have been praising the work for years. Since then, it's been really nice to see more recordings of it being made and released, so it's definitely less obscure now (nevertheless, not near as popular as it should be).
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 16, 2012, 02:33:54 PM
Just listened to the Violin Concerto for the first time, and what an incredibly gorgeous work it is. Very enjoyable. Matthew (my teacher, who suggested I should listen to it), was telling me the story of the work, and I just wonder, what one earth is there not to like about this work? It's absolutely lovely! :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Octave on April 30, 2013, 11:31:03 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T%2BB506t2L._SL500_.jpg)

I just listened to Andreas Staier's Hommage à BACH album of Schumann music (Harmonia Mundi, 2008), and I'm trying to figure out how it's not going to be on endless repeat play for the remainder of May.  What a delight!  I'm not a total stranger to Schumann's solo piano music, but this is my first time hearing Staier's Schumann; and also my first encounter with it on a period piano (Érard 1837, quite pleasing to me after my gradually more and more positive experience with an 1855 model used by Patrick Cohen on his Glossa disc of Satie).  Even the usual hesitations hearing a new dialect or accent ("Stop rushing KINDERSZENEN!") kept giving way, yielding to surprise and pleasure; I think it will be one of my favorite recent discoveries among solo piano recording. 

A couple questions occasioned by this recording, and a more general third question.

1. Are there some recordings of Album [40 Clavierstücke] für die Jugend Op. 68?  I only know Staier's recording of eight of these pieces here, and also Homero Francesch's recording of (iirc) all of them.  Perhaps some selections by a few other hands, I cannot remember.

2. Same question for the Sieben Clavierstücke in Fughettenform, Op. 126

and something that I'm sure has been discussed: the overall and work-by-work quality of the various more-or-less complete sets of Schumann's solo piano music.  The two I've looked at the most (and sampled a bit) are the Brilliant set (various pianists) and the recent Eric Le Sage set from Alpha, each of these sets having 13 discs.  Any opinions on them would be appreciated.

Jeffrey Smith wrote about the Brilliant set early this year:
Quote
An excellent performance of Carnaval from the Brilliant "Schumann Complete Solo Piano Works" box,
by Wolfram Schmitt-Leonardy, a performer of whom I have never heard before.
I commented in another thread, after hearing the first few CDs of this set, that it was good to have for the lesser known works, but did not seem to contain anything threatening the general favorites for the better known works.  This Carnaval, however, does rate to stand with any of the more famous performances
and suggested a freestanding Brilliant 2cd of the WS-L contributions.

I have also looked at the Jörg Demus set, but the concern there is the sound quality.  Actually, I like Demus' playing and a few samples of things here seemed like they might grow on me....but 13 discs of rather substandard piano sound, it's hard to know if I'd be able to stand it.

I'm not obsessed with a complete set, but it would be nice to have access to all the published pieces for solo piano in at least decent performances; it seems like almost half of what's included in these complete series/boxes are pieces not recorded very often, perhaps I'm wrong.

EDIT: yeah, not so sure about the last item...I'm going to work my way through the 2/3 of this thread that I haven't looked at yet, but I'd appreciate some recommendations for essential Schumann solo piano recordings...it is probably much-hashed territory, but I'd like to move beyond the most-played repertoire.  My points of reference are still few: Argerich, Pollini, Andras Schiff, Richter, a little Cortot, some Ashkenazy, Kempff, a little Murray Perahia, a bit by Harold Bauer, by Michelangeli.  I am forgetting several.

EDIT EDIT: One relatively focused discussion at the Amazon Classical forum is here:
http://www.amazon.com/forum/classical%20music?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2O5YQ79OVJBUQ&cdThread=Tx15HNTJ0TLB0UR (http://www.amazon.com/forum/classical%20music?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2O5YQ79OVJBUQ&cdThread=Tx15HNTJ0TLB0UR)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on May 01, 2013, 08:32:59 AM
Well I stand by that list I posted on the amazon site. But check out the discussion here on Davidsbundlertanze too, and the recent ones I've been involved in on Davidsbundlertanze on rmcr. I've found some nice performances of that recently.

Re Op 126, I didn't mention anything on the amazon list because at the time I hadn't found a recommendable performance. But I've since been very interested by the Franz Vorraber plays them.

I've become very curious about Schumann's more contrapuntal music.


Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: kyjo on August 25, 2013, 05:57:24 AM
I've never been a big Schumann fan, but there is one work of his which I find myself returning to often, which is, surprisingly for me, a chamber work: the Piano Quintet. I find more of a emotional connection to this work than any of his orchestral works (with the possible exception of the PC). This work exudes such a zest for life that I find thrilling. The funereal slow movement has an affecting simplicity that is quite haunting. My favorite recording of this, one of my very favorite chamber works, is undoubtedly the Beaux Arts' (+2, of course) on Philips. What do others think of this remarkable work? :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Klaze on August 25, 2013, 06:26:16 AM
One of my all-time favourite works, but I have to say I am a Schumann fan.
 
Of course, the best Schumann is not found in the orchestral works, but in the solo piano works, chamber music and, according to people more knowledgeable than me, the Lieder (haven't started with those yet). That said, I think the symphonies are somewhat underappreciated, but that's another topic.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: kyjo on August 25, 2013, 07:22:19 AM
One of my all-time favourite works, but I have to say I am a Schumann fan.
 
Of course, the best Schumann is not found in the orchestral works, but in the solo piano works, chamber music and, according to people more knowledgeable than me, the Lieder (haven't started with those yet). That said, I think the symphonies are somewhat underappreciated, but that's another topic.

Yeah, I don't agree with all the criticisms that are always flung at Schumann's symphonies, as I think they are fine and sometimes powerful works, if not the last word in orchestration, of course. I've never heard any of Schumann's lieder, either, as I'm not too keen on vocal music without orchestral accompaniment.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 25, 2013, 10:05:45 AM
Yeah, I don't agree with all the criticisms that are always flung at Schumann's symphonies, as I think they are fine and sometimes powerful works, if not the last word in orchestration, of course. I've never heard any of Schumann's lieder, either, as I'm not too keen on vocal music without orchestral accompaniment.
I must say, for me, Dichteliebe is one of Schumann's greatest pieces. It is quite moving and mixes the words quite adeptly with the music. The moods that are evoked are also quite well done. If nothing else, most people seem to at least like the opening song. I highly recommend giving it a listen on youtube someday. The first song, Im wunderschönen Monat Mai, is less than 2 minutes.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on August 25, 2013, 11:15:22 AM
You may enjoy Reinbart de Leeuw's creative reworkings of Dichterliebe and Schubert songs, sung on a CD by Barbara Sukowa. The CD's called Im wunderschönen Monat Mai. He uses an orchestra.

Uri Caine also worked with Dichterliebe, I haven't heard it.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on September 09, 2013, 03:51:30 AM
I've just been listening to Carnaval with a copy of the score in front of me. I've decided I find this quite helpful to keep track of what's happening in these early Schumann pieces that have so many separate little sections.

And my eyes opened wide when I got to the 'Chopin' section.  Yes yes, I know that Schumann 'musically depicted' Chopin. Every little reference on Carnaval says that.  But they don't say he downright quoted him. There's a half bar lifted from Chopin's Op.9/1 Nocturne in there!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox-Piano Quintet & Quartet vinyl
Post by: mjwal on September 09, 2013, 06:24:25 AM
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/ds23b.jpg) open image in new window full-size

I admit, when I saw this LP in college, I bought it due to the wonderful packaging.
Ariola/Eurodisc 201 084-366, recorded 1979, 1980.
The LP has a thick paper one-sided insert in English with notes by Kroher,
basically a repeat of the back cover, which is in German.
The pressing is better than Angel but not up to Philips/DG.
But it turned out to be a magnificent album.  I've seen a Jorg Demus/Vienna Chamber Ensemble CD for Mozart,
but as far as I could find, this one has not been issued on CD.
I don't know that but I have a very characterful version by Demus with the Barylli Quartet (from '56) which was reissued by MCA/Westminster in '96. The Andante cantabile of the Piano Quartet is perhaps the most heart-breaking music Schumann ever wrote.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on November 09, 2013, 05:47:13 PM
Having a ball listening to some brilliant, creative piano pieces from Schumann, with this delightful box set:

Currently listening to:

Variations on the name 'ABEGG' in F major, Op. 1
Three Romances, Op. 28


Jean-Philippe Collard



Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on November 09, 2013, 05:54:39 PM
Now on to:

Impromptus on a Theme of Clara Wieck, Op. 5

Jean-Philippe Collard

Wow, such a beautiful, gorgeous piano work.  :)


Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: kishnevi on November 09, 2013, 06:49:47 PM
Those EMI sets, while hardly complete, make a handy grab bag and a good cross section of his work.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on November 11, 2013, 07:10:07 AM
Listening to more Schumann piano music:

Piano Sonata No. 3 in F minor, Op. 14 'Concerto without orchestra'

Jean-Philippe Collard

Davidsbündlertänze, Op. 6
Kinderszenen, Op. 15


Christian Zacharias


Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on November 11, 2013, 11:17:11 AM
Now listening to Elisso Wirssaladze.  Love especially the 1st piano sonata, and the Waldszenen.

Piano Sonata in F sharp minor, Op. 11  (she makes that Scherzo really dance!)
Piano Sonata in G minor, Op. 22
Waldszenen, Op. 82



Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: The new erato on November 11, 2013, 11:30:15 AM
You may enjoy Reinbart de Leeuw's creative reworkings of Dichterliebe and Schubert songs, sung on a CD by Barbara Sukowa. The CD's called Im wunderschönen Monat Mai. He uses an orchestra.

I've heard them do it live a few years ago. It was stunning.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on November 11, 2013, 11:30:47 AM
Now listening to Elisso Wirssaladze.  Love especially the 1st piano sonata, and the Waldszenen.

Piano Sonata in F sharp minor, Op. 11  (she makes that Scherzo really dance!)
Piano Sonata in G minor, Op. 22
Waldszenen, Op. 82




I can't think of a better Waldszenen. She recorded op 11 a second time on Live Classics, one of them was much better than the other but I can't remember which one. If you start to explore op 22, the one person who made sense of it for me is Sokolov in Heidelberg a couple of years ago. That recording seems to have disappeared without trace. I'll put it on symphonyshare if you want.

I would say Virssaladze and Sokolov are the two most exciting active Schumannists -- and maybe Vorraber, I'm unsure about him. Schliessmann seems to have stopped performing. Try to hear Virssaladze's Kreisleriana and Etudes (I'm not sure if the Etudes have been released.) I've just noticed that I've got a record of her playing Carnival which I've never heard -- from a concert in 2011. I'll have to play it soon.

Op 11, Noveletten and DBT are the keyboard pieces I like the most. I think.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on November 11, 2013, 01:41:34 PM
I can't think of a better Waldszenen.

It is very beautiful!  :)

Now listening to:

Fantasy in C, Op. 17
Faschingsschwank aus Wien, Op. 26
Papillons, Op. 2


Richter



Like I mentioned before on the Schumann solo piano thread, one of my favourite single CDs of any solo piano music.  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on November 20, 2013, 04:27:59 PM
Almost a monthly ritual, listening to this set!  I find lately, that I play the final movement of the 4th symphony on repeat, so uplifting!  :)

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on November 24, 2013, 11:17:45 AM
Mickey Mouse playing Schumann....and some Rossini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyjC_XBH3UY
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Sammy on November 24, 2013, 07:20:23 PM
I can't think of a better Waldszenen.

I'm with you.  My three favorite versions come from Elisso, Richter (DG) and Arrau.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on November 26, 2013, 10:54:22 PM
I'm with you.  My three favorite versions come from Elisso, Richter (DG) and Arrau.

One I was listening to recently was Zhukov's on youtube, though it doesn't seem as special to me as his  Fantasie LP

http://www.youtube.com/v/nCZBpqhOlr0

I haven't heard Arrau's, but I'll play it today now that you mentioned it.

Since I'm on a Schumann thread I'll just report that I've been listening to an extraordinary Kreisleriana played by Pletnev, unpublished, good sound, from a concert in London in 2006. I don't know how I got it but it deserves to be more widely known - if anyone wants it just PM me and I'll upload the files.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on December 22, 2013, 09:44:19 AM
Schumann-athon  :)

First, earlier this AM:



Now:

Piano Concerto in A minor, Op. 54

Bolet, piano

Chailly
Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra

Cello Concerto in A minor, Op. 129

Harrell, cello

Marriner
The Cleveland Orchestra

Introduction and Allegro Appassionato in G major, Op. 92

Schiff, piano

Dohnanyi
Vienna Philharmonic

Decca
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2013, 05:23:45 PM
Very orchestral of you!

How is the Zinman? I don't have Schumann's symphonies, and they're on the shopping list.  I have Zinman's Beethoven and it strikes me that he might be well suited to Schumann's allegedly thick orchestral scoring.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on December 22, 2013, 05:27:58 PM
Very orchestral of you!

How is the Zinman? I don't have Schumann's symphonies, and they're on the shopping list.  I have Zinman's Beethoven and it strikes me that he might be well suited to Schumann's allegedly thick orchestral scoring.

I really enjoy the Zinman/Tonhall recordings.  Very 'oft listened to.

Now I'm on to the chamber music:

Piano Quintet, Piano Quartet and the magnificent 3 Piano Trios (Beaux Arts)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Cato on December 22, 2013, 05:44:11 PM
Very orchestral of you!

How is the Zinman? I don't have Schumann's symphonies, and they're on the shopping list.  I have Zinman's Beethoven and it strikes me that he might be well suited to Schumann's allegedly thick orchestral scoring.

George Szell did not buy that opinion much at all: his recordings of the symphonies are legendary.


Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on December 22, 2013, 05:46:39 PM
George Szell did not buy that opinion much at all: his recordings of the symphonies are legendary.



Oh gosh.  There are still so many Schumann works I've never heard before, including the Manfred Overture!  :o
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Cato on December 22, 2013, 06:22:19 PM
Oh gosh.  There are still so many Schumann works I've never heard before, including the Manfred Overture!  :o

It's a great one!  One of his top efforts!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: kishnevi on December 22, 2013, 06:27:17 PM
Very orchestral of you!

How is the Zinman? I don't have Schumann's symphonies, and they're on the shopping list.  I have Zinman's Beethoven and it strikes me that he might be well suited to Schumann's allegedly thick orchestral scoring.

Haven't heard the Szell.  Personal preference is for Kubelik and Karajan well ahead of Zinman.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 26, 2014, 06:53:28 AM
Does anyone know these?
http://www.youtube.com/v/NgirHgVpJCY
6 etudes in the form of a canon.. transcribed by Debussy for 4 hands.

Playing them at academy, they really are gorgeous gems. :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on January 26, 2014, 07:19:14 AM
Sunday Schumann Symphonies from these terrific performances!  :)

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: North Star on January 26, 2014, 07:28:08 AM
Does anyone know these?
6 etudes in the form of a canon.. transcribed by Debussy for 4 hands.

Playing them at academy, they really are gorgeous gems. :)

Wonderful work, on this splendid disc:

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 26, 2014, 07:51:46 AM
Sunday Schumann Symphonies from these terrific performances!  :)



Agreed, wonderful recordings by Zinman! :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on January 27, 2014, 03:52:00 AM
Today's random Schumann question: does anyone know of complete recordings of the song collection Myrthen, op.25?

I know of one for certain, which is on Hyperion with Ian Bostridge and Dorothea Roschmann singing and Graham Johnson accompanying.  But I'm curious to know if there are any others. It seems that selections are far more common than a complete recording, probably because it isn't easy for a single voice to cover all the songs.

EDIT: It looks like there's a second one on Naxos, with Andrea Lauren Brown, Thomas E. Bauer and Uta Hielscher.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 27, 2014, 12:26:10 PM
Today's random Schumann question: does anyone know of complete recordings of the song collection Myrthen, op.25?

I know of one for certain, which is on Hyperion with Ian Bostridge and Dorothea Roschmann singing and Graham Johnson accompanying.  But I'm curious to know if there are any others. It seems that selections are far more common than a complete recording, probably because it isn't easy for a single voice to cover all the songs.

EDIT: It looks like there's a second one on Naxos, with Andrea Lauren Brown, Thomas E. Bauer and Uta Hielscher.
There are at least two others: Warner/Erato with Nathalie Stutzmann, Chandos with Lynne Dawson and Ian Partridge. I have not heard either of them.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on February 19, 2014, 06:07:43 PM
If you don't have this one on the shelf for less than $7, then you are missing an incredible Three Romances #2 (Semplice).  The rest of the disc also is under the green lemon.

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on February 26, 2014, 03:56:59 AM
Yesterday and today I've been listening to the "Kerner Lieder" (or "12 Gedicthe von Justinus Kerner"), op.35, for the first time in a long while.

I remembered I liked it, but my goodness. Stirb', Lieb' und Freud' is just an absolutely extraordinary song. Or maybe it's Wolfgang Holzmair's performance that is extraordinary.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: EigenUser on May 27, 2014, 06:23:08 PM
I recently acquired the score for the 4th symphony. You know, the more I hear it, the more I realize how ingenious the work is. It is extremely tightly-knit music that does so much with so little.

Any thoughts on this piece? What symphony is generally considered Schumann's best?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Ken B on May 27, 2014, 06:57:23 PM
I recently acquired the score for the 4th symphony. You know, the more I hear it, the more I realize how ingenious the work is. It is extremely tightly-knit music that does so much with so little.

Any thoughts on this piece? What symphony is generally considered Schumann's best?
3 is the usual choice. It was the last one. But it's not like Franck, where pretty much everyone agrees on the best symphony.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 17, 2014, 08:29:59 AM
Well, for those who may want a 'complete solo piano' collection by a single pianist - the Eric Le Sage box is available on Amazon Prime for $33 (13 discs) - Todd brought my attention to this offering in the listening thread today (do have the 2-CD set below which I enjoy); my Schumann Piano Music collection is a 'mishmash' w/ 8 performers (see quote below) put together over many years - need to 'cull out' a few but nearly all of those recordings have received excellent reviews - Dave :)

Quote
Argerich, Martha - Kinderszenen/Kreisleriana (1) - 5* (i.e. Amazon rating)
Cabasso, Laurent - Kreis./Nacht./Fantstk./Bunte (2) - 5*
Freire, Nelson - Carnaval/Papillons/Kindersz./Arabesq. (1) - 5*
Hamelin, M-A - Papillons/Fantasiestucke/Carnaval (1) - 4.6*
Kuijken, Piet (FP) - Novell./Kindersz./Humor./Arab./Blume/Rom./Nach. (2) - 5*
Le Sage, Eric - Humor./Buntebl./EtudesSymphoniques (2) - ?
Perahia, Murray - Davidsbund./Fantasiestucke (1) - 5*
Wurtz, Klara - Kreisl./PS 1/2/Piano Conc./Faschingss. (3) - 5*

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5tZVdnt/0/O/Schumann_LeSage.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-PTTWGj7/0/O/Schumann_LeSageBB.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 17, 2014, 08:50:21 AM
As I was reviewing my Schumann solo piano collection, thought that I'd also look @ the chamber works (i.e. piano trios, quartet & quintet) - just have the BAT twofer from the 1970s - there appears to be a number of more modern choices, so put in an order for the two below:

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-tq5Rbt6/0/O/Schumann_PianoTrios.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-s5p9fJ4/0/O/Schumann_PQs_Emerson.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Ken B on July 17, 2014, 09:44:56 AM
Well, for those who may want a 'complete solo piano' collection by a single pianist - the Eric Le Sage box is available on Amazon Prime for $33 (13 discs) - Todd brought my attention to this offering in the listening thread today (do have the 2-CD set below which I enjoy); my Schumann Piano Music collection is a 'mishmash' w/ 8 performers (see quote below) put together over many years - need to 'cull out' a few but nearly all of those recordings have received excellent reviews - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5tZVdnt/0/O/Schumann_LeSage.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-PTTWGj7/0/O/Schumann_LeSageBB.jpg)
Todd, from his comments so far, isn't a big fan of the Le Sage box. I am  though.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on July 19, 2014, 08:51:44 AM
Listening to some of Bobby's solo piano music and chamber music:





This set of piano trios combined with the quintet and quartet is a desert island choice for me, without question.

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brian on September 20, 2014, 04:20:20 PM
Sound samples (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Linn/CKD450) indicate that Ticciati's Schumann is a unique, unusual take in many ways. (Just listen to the finale of the Third in the clip.) Another indicator: David Hurwitz just named it a "CD from Hell" and said that "Everything, and I mean everything, about these performances is bad."
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jo498 on November 28, 2014, 02:15:12 AM
I recently acquired the score for the 4th symphony. You know, the more I hear it, the more I realize how ingenious the work is. It is extremely tightly-knit music that does so much with so little.

Any thoughts on this piece? What symphony is generally considered Schumann's best?

The 4th used to be the most frequently played and recorded, I think. It is clearly the most unified and most tightly-knit as you already observed. For me, it's the best and also one of the most convincing romantic symphonies in the wake of the (similarly motivically unified) Beethoven 5th.
The 1st is also very nice but considerably "lighter". I find the 3rd uneven, more interesting than convincing (after the first movement which I like a lot). The 2nd has grown on me, the slow movement is probably my favorite orchestral piece by Schumann and the Scherzo is one of his most brilliant but I am still not convinced by the noisy finale with the repetition of one of Schumann's signature quotes (a phrase from Beethoven's "An die ferne Geliebte" songs) repeated ad nauseam.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on November 28, 2014, 02:23:50 AM
Sound samples (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Linn/CKD450) indicate that Ticciati's Schumann is a unique, unusual take in many ways.
Ticciati conducts with a pianist's phrasing, HIP inflexions and a fair amount of tempo manipulation. Mario Venzago's Bruckner has been cited as a similar approach. In the world of Schumann symphonies, picture Kubelik's line plus Gardiner's detail (plus the SCO sound, of course). I'm really enjoying it so far.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Wanderer on November 28, 2014, 02:48:56 AM
I'm really enjoying it so far.

Ditto. These are lithe performances, also transparent, which allows the orchestration to shine through.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on November 28, 2014, 03:17:19 AM
The 4th used to be the most frequently played and recorded, I think. It is clearly the most unified and most tightly-knit as you already observed. For me, it's the best and also one of the most convincing romantic symphonies in the wake of the (similarly motivically unified) Beethoven 5th.
The 1st is also very nice but considerably "lighter". I find the 3rd uneven, more interesting than convincing (after the first movement which I like a lot). The 2nd has grown on me, the slow movement is probably my favorite orchestral piece by Schumann and the Scherzo is one of his most brilliant but I am still not convinced by the noisy finale with the repetition of one of Schumann's signature quotes (a phrase from Beethoven's "An die ferne Geliebte" songs) repeated ad nauseam.

The 2nd is my choice for Schumann's greatest symphony, largely because it's closest in style and form to his early piano works. (Yes, the finale is the least successful movement, but played with a good deal of energy and fire it makes a decent conclusion.) The 4th (1841 version) is my second choice, followed by the 1851 4th (perhaps more coherent structurally, but all the added repeat signs—as in Kreisleriana—weaken the sense of a continuous "stream of consciousness" with all these short ideas/fragments appearing briefly never to be heard again. the 1841 4th is much more like the symphony Hölderlin would have written.). I like the 3rd and 1st, but not as much as the other two.

Among Schumann's sonata-type works, excluding the Fantasy Op. 17, I find the most successful to be the Sonata Op. 11 trailed at some significant distance by the Piano Quintet Op. 44 and Quartet Op. 47, then the quartets, the other sonatas (although Op. 22 is significantly improved by substitution of the original 'Presto passionato' finale) etc. The symphonies are among the least characteristic and distinctive of Schumann's works actually—apart from his tendency to repeat things over and over and over again and the rhythmic patterns that can only be disrupted through violent effort, they could have been written by Mendelssohn. Which would be high praise for Schumann himself I guess, but Mendelssohn has 5 perfectly good symphonies of his own I can listen to. ;) The 2nd is the one that works least well as a Mendelssohnian neo-classical symphony which is possibly why I like it so much; the 4th (posterity's pick if not mine) is most successful if thought of as a large-scale "symphonic poem" rather than a symphony, like the Fantasy for piano and orchestra (which became the 1st movement of the Piano Concerto) or anything Liszt wrote with orchestra
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: EigenUser on November 28, 2014, 03:34:58 AM
The 4th used to be the most frequently played and recorded, I think. It is clearly the most unified and most tightly-knit as you already observed. For me, it's the best and also one of the most convincing romantic symphonies in the wake of the (similarly motivically unified) Beethoven 5th.
The 1st is also very nice but considerably "lighter". I find the 3rd uneven, more interesting than convincing (after the first movement which I like a lot). The 2nd has grown on me, the slow movement is probably my favorite orchestral piece by Schumann and the Scherzo is one of his most brilliant but I am still not convinced by the noisy finale with the repetition of one of Schumann's signature quotes (a phrase from Beethoven's "An die ferne Geliebte" songs) repeated ad nauseam.

I'd say the 4th and 2nd are my favorite Schumann symphonies (in order). I love the 3rd, too. The opening of the first movement always makes me think of  "Oh, My Darling!" :D (anyone else know what I'm talking about?). His 1st symphony lags behind for me.

I like the noisy finale of the 2nd ;D.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jo498 on November 28, 2014, 04:47:30 AM
I prefer most of the chamber music to the op.11 sonata but I do not know this sonata as well as e.g. piano quintet/quartet. It's also somewhat repetitive in the first movement I seem to recall (this anapaestic motive is repeated forever).
For me, in the symphonies the burden of tradition seems to impede Schumann to some extent. As you said, something like a symphonic poem in one great arch might have been more congenial and the d minor symphony is close (I think it was also called "symphonische Phantasie" at some stage). E.g. the "Spring symphony" is a nice piece but while some details may be recognizable as "Schumannian", overall it is not terribly original.
I am not able to give a detailed justification but the chamber music, even it is similarly beholden to traditional types and sequences of movements seems to capture more from the "phantastic", quirky spirit of the piano music. Or whatever, by now I guess I just prefer his chamber music to most of the symphonies.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: AdamFromWashington on March 22, 2015, 02:16:24 PM
What is the general opinion on Schumann's Violin Concerto in D minor? I listened to it last night and found it very enjoyable. The first movement reminded me of Brahms and Nielsen in parts, and the dissonances seemed ahead of their time. The middle movement was simply gorgeous. The last movement rambled, but I still liked it.

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: jlaurson on March 22, 2015, 02:25:48 PM
What is the general opinion on Schumann's Violin Concerto in D minor? I listened to it last night and found it very enjoyable. The first movement reminded me of Brahms and Nielsen in parts, and the dissonances seemed ahead of their time. The middle movement was simply gorgeous. The last movement rambled, but I still liked it.

Absolute Masterpiece, if one likes late Schumann. The way he quotes (or rather: foreshadows) the Ghost Variations... the insistence of the first movement... I can't wait to get my paws on Isabelle Faust's rendition, after hearing her twice in two nights with this (and the other two concertos). A dear acquaintance of mine, a lady of advanced years but feisty spirit enough for three, called Clara Schumann some very unkind names, after the performance. (She burnt the work, thinking it an embarrassment to her husband's memory.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71fZ6rB0CoL._SX522_.jpg)
R. SchumannViolin Concerto, Trio
Isabelle Faust / Freiburg BO /  Pablo Heras-Casado
+ J.G.Queyras, A.Melnikov
DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00QMTDBFY/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00QMTDBFY/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00QMTDBFY/goodmusicguideuk-21)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: AdamFromWashington on March 22, 2015, 03:08:09 PM
Absolute Masterpiece, if one likes late Schumann.

I wholeheartedly agree. And "insistent" is a perfect way to describe the first movement. It's desperate, scrambling, tumbling over shadows, spilling light across the page, in a mad race just to finish. I read on Wikipedia that Joachim thought it showed "a certain exhaustion, which attempts to wring out the last resources of spiritual energy." Only I wish that Clara, and Brahms, and Joachim realized THAT THAT WAS NOT A BAD THING! It does sound exhausted, and it does sound like a man working at the edge of his sanity, because that's exactly what it is, and I wouldn't want the piece any other way (though I would prefer that poor Schumann lived much longer).

That Faust recording is the one I listened to last night. Let me tell you, I'm very jealous of your concert experience, because this recording is especially impressive. Faust is one of my favorite violinists (only on record, unfortunately, because I'm in no position to attend concerts). A sweet tone with just the right amount of grit. Unlike many modern violinists, who forget the "grit" (I like to feel the violin, dang it!).  ;D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on March 23, 2015, 03:58:26 AM
What is the general opinion on Schumann's Violin Concerto in D minor? I listened to it last night and found it very enjoyable. The first movement reminded me of Brahms and Nielsen in parts, and the dissonances seemed ahead of their time. The middle movement was simply gorgeous. The last movement rambled, but I still liked it.

Couple of years ago I wrote here that it is probably my favorite violin concerto. It isn't one anymore but I still quite like it. Very enjoyable, as you said. Certainly much better than its reputation.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Wakefield on March 23, 2015, 04:12:34 AM
Absolute Masterpiece, if one likes late Schumann. The way he quotes (or rather: foreshadows) the Ghost Variations... the insistence of the first movement... I can't wait to get my paws on Isabelle Faust's rendition, after hearing her twice in two nights with this (and the other two concertos). A dear acquaintance of mine, a lady of advanced years but feisty spirit enough for three, called Clara Schumann some very unkind names, after the performance. (She burnt the work, thinking it an embarrassment to her husband's memory.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71fZ6rB0CoL._SX522_.jpg)
R. SchumannViolin Concerto, Trio
Isabelle Faust / Freiburg BO /  Pablo Heras-Casado
+ J.G.Queyras, A.Melnikov
DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00QMTDBFY/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00QMTDBFY/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00QMTDBFY/goodmusicguideuk-21)

It seems the complete series will be mandatory. What a great idea to record the concertos and the piano trios together!

I have read that gut strings will be used in this project ("The Guardian", for instance), but I'm not sure if the violin used by Mrs. Faust is gut-stringed. Do you have some information about it?   
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: North Star on March 23, 2015, 04:19:38 AM
It seems the complete series will be mandatory. What a great idea to record the concertos and the piano trios together!

I have read that gut strings will be used in this project ("The Guardian", for instance), but I'm not sure if the violin used by Mrs. Faust is gut-stringed. Do you have some information about it?
Sure sounds like PI in the samples (UK link)

E: And also in the quotation there:
Quote
The instigators of the project, Isabelle Faust, Alexandre Melnikov and Jean-Guihen Queyras, champion their cause with a force of conviction and a choice of instruments that restore the delicate transparency and subtlety of their textures. The next release will be of the Piano Concerto and Piano Trio No. 2. 'The idea for this CD project arose during a tour on which we performed Robert Schumann s Trio Op.80. As passionate admirers of the composer, we conceived the desire to place his works for piano, violin and cello in a broader context and to illuminate them mutually in order to allow listeners to gain a deeper understanding of his music. We soon agreed to play the pieces for this recording on a historical piano and stringed instruments with gut strings, using orchestral forces to match. Pablo Heras-Casado and the Freiburger Barockorchester sprang spontaneously to mind as the ideal partners for a project of this kind. Our shared journey into the magical world of this incomparable composer will remain with us as an exceptionally intense, happy, and fulfilling experience.' Isabelle Faust, Alexander Melnikov, Jean-Guihen Queyras.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Wanderer on March 23, 2015, 05:20:17 AM
It's good to see the violin concerto getting some well-deserved attention; it's come as a topic of discussion time and again and some of us have always liked it (my perennial recommendation being Kremer/Harnoncourt, which, even after the arrival of more recent recordings, holds its own very well). I've never understood the "reputation" that supposedly follows the concerto and kudos to I.Faust for speaking against Clara Wieck/Schumann for hiding it from the world for so long.

This new recording, as already mentioned, is excellent; both Faust and the Freiburg orchestra are passionate and feisty; great phrasing, too. The period ensemble deserves special mention as is both a great collaborator to the soloist and their playing (excellent dynamic gradations) accentuates the splendid sonorities of Schumann's orchestration. I'm generally not a big enthusiast of Faust's playing, but here she is simply excellent. The performance of the piano trio No.3 is on the same high level.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Florestan on March 23, 2015, 07:32:01 AM
Last week Mezzo TV aired live recordings of Melnikov, Faust and Queyras playing in order the three Schumann concertos with Freiburger Barockorchester. Excellent on all accounts.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on May 18, 2015, 10:27:23 AM
Greatly looking forward to hearing Faust's recording of the Schumann VC.  I have Gidon Kremer in it, which I don't much like; it is - as usual - too steely a tone for me.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: San Antone on May 18, 2015, 10:53:21 AM
I have been lately enjoying this recording by Matthias Goerne and Vladimir Ashkenazy

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 18, 2015, 03:25:06 PM
I have been lately enjoying this recording by Matthias Goerne and Vladimir Ashkenazy



I have that one, too. Great duo.


Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: San Antone on June 18, 2015, 11:39:42 AM
Robert Schumann: Fantasie in C, Op.17

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/28944745122.jpg)

Maurizio Pollini couples this Schumann work with the Schubert Wanderer Fantasie -

“The cover shows Caspar David Friedrich's familiar The Wanderer above the Sea of Fog. Pollini, on the other hand, is a wanderer in a transparent ether or crystalline light, and both these legendary performances, recorded in 1973 and beautifully remastered, are of a transcendental vision and integrity. In the Schubert his magisterial, resolutely unvirtuoso approach allows everything its time and place.

Listen to his flawlessly graded triple piano approach to the central Adagio, to his rock-steady octaves at 5'23" (where Schubert's merciless demand is so often the cause of confusion) or to the way the decorations in the Adagio are spun off with such rare finesse, and you may well wonder when you've heard playing of such an unadorned, unalloyed glory. Pollini's Schumann is no less memorable. Doubting Thomases on the alert for alternating touches of imperiousness and sobriety will be disappointed, for, again, Pollini's poise is unfaltering. The opening Moderato is sempre energico, indeed, its central Etwas langsamer is so sensitively and precisely gauged that all possible criticism is silenced. The coda of the central march (that locus classicus of the wrong note) is immaculate and in what someone once called the finale's 'shifting sunset vapour' Pollini takes us gently but firmly to the shores of Elysium. Here is a record that should grace every musician's shelf.”
  ~  Gramophone Music Guide, 2010.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on June 18, 2015, 07:18:04 PM
Robert Schumann: Fantasie in C, Op.17

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/28944745122.jpg)

Maurizio Pollini couples this Schumann work with the Schubert Wanderer Fantasie -

“The cover shows Caspar David Friedrich's familiar The Wanderer above the Sea of Fog. Pollini, on the other hand, is a wanderer in a transparent ether or crystalline light, and both these legendary performances, recorded in 1973 and beautifully remastered, are of a transcendental vision and integrity. In the Schubert his magisterial, resolutely unvirtuoso approach allows everything its time and place.

Listen to his flawlessly graded triple piano approach to the central Adagio, to his rock-steady octaves at 5'23" (where Schubert's merciless demand is so often the cause of confusion) or to the way the decorations in the Adagio are spun off with such rare finesse, and you may well wonder when you've heard playing of such an unadorned, unalloyed glory. Pollini's Schumann is no less memorable. Doubting Thomases on the alert for alternating touches of imperiousness and sobriety will be disappointed, for, again, Pollini's poise is unfaltering. The opening Moderato is sempre energico, indeed, its central Etwas langsamer is so sensitively and precisely gauged that all possible criticism is silenced. The coda of the central march (that locus classicus of the wrong note) is immaculate and in what someone once called the finale's 'shifting sunset vapour' Pollini takes us gently but firmly to the shores of Elysium. Here is a record that should grace every musician's shelf.”
  ~  Gramophone Music Guide, 2010.

The Schumann fantasie was dedicated to Liszt I think, and I think the Liszt sonata was dedicated to Schumann. Both sound rather like the Wanderer Fanatasy to me.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on June 19, 2015, 01:46:42 AM
It so happens that today I've been thinking about possible Schumann acquisitions.

I need some symphonies, and I think that now that Gardiner is available more cheaply he's going to be first option. Seems to have near universal praise.

However, I was also looking at some options for the overtures. Does anyone have a view on this Naxos disc? Or know of any other overture collections? They mostly seem to come as appendages to symphonic recordings.



The overtures do all appear on a symphony cycle by Dausgaard on BIS, but I'm not seeing great reviews for that series.

I was also looking at another symphony collection, by Michael Schonwandt on Chandos, because they seem to be just about the only recordings of Schumann's choral ballads. Has anyone heard these? EDIT: Oh. I've put two volumes below, but a bit of searching suggests that Schonwandt might not have ever finished the series. Which if true is disappointing.

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jo498 on June 19, 2015, 02:18:38 AM
Can't help with the Ouvertures (I think I only have Manfred and another one as fillers) or the choral ballads. (I think there is an EMI box with most of the choral music including them). The Gardiner has been re-packaged cheaply including "Das Paradies und die Peri". I only have the earlier 3-disc-set and highly recommend it. Especially good is that one gets two versions of the 4th symphony and the early "Zwickau" fragment (a rarity) as well as the concertante piece with 4 horns.

The choral stuff is to some extent an acquired taste, I believe, although the "Peri" undoubtedly contains beautiful music, I am not so sure if it really works for me as a whole (and even less with "Der Rose Pilgerfahrt") (It does not help that I find both sujets rather soppy.)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on June 19, 2015, 02:59:47 AM
The Gardiner has been re-packaged cheaply including "Das Paradies und die Peri". I only have the earlier 3-disc-set and highly recommend it.

Yes, it's the repackaging with the oratorio that I'm thinking of getting. I kind of figured it was a no-brainer to choose that over the original 3-disc version. I've seen so many positive remarks everywhere about the performances.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brian on June 19, 2015, 06:16:01 AM
Yes, it's the repackaging with the oratorio that I'm thinking of getting. I kind of figured it was a no-brainer to choose that over the original 3-disc version. I've seen so many positive remarks everywhere about the performances.
Gardiner is definitely one of the top choices with the symphonies. Chailly, conducting Mahler's edited versions, is also surprisingly great - Mahler didn't have too heavy a hand, so my impression is even Schumann purists enjoy hearing these editions. I certainly do.

"Overture, Scherzo, and Finale" and maybe one of the other overtures is in the Gardiner box, but otherwise that Naxos disc could be a good gap-filler. I don't know the music, but Wildner is a very competent conductor of Germanic-tradition stuff. Also look into Antoni Wit's Warsaw PO "Scenes from Goethe's Faust" if you're into that sort of thing. (For some reason, this piece has been really lucky on record - all the recordings are really good.)

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brian on June 19, 2015, 07:00:57 AM
Just listened to the overtures disc. There are more comments in the general listening thread, but honestly I find them skippable - indistinguishable from Raff, Farrenc, Rufinatscha, and all those names; definitely not "ooh! Schumann!" to me.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brian on June 19, 2015, 10:39:33 AM
First Listen Friday!

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.572430-31.jpg)

I've never heard this work before - my comments about recordings a couple posts up were based on reviews/reputation - but this really is a fantastic piece. Though not everything keeps up interest to the same level (the overture's meh), there's a lot of really good stuff, and some arias (like Doctor Marianus') which suggest Schumann could have written good operas in a Weberian way. Two hours is a lot of time to invest in a piece, but I really enjoyed this.

Might rank in my favorite orchestral Schumann, along with the Symphony No. 4 and Konzertstuck for 4 Horns. Lovely singing and, of course, glorious orchestra/chorus.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jo498 on June 19, 2015, 11:25:46 AM
As you might know Schubert wrote one opera: "Genoveva" on a medieval subject. The count is off to crusade and an evil retainer tries to seduce the virtuous wife who of course refuses but is then innocently accused of cheating through some cabal but in the end everything is resolved.
There is a pretty good (if somewhat staid) recording with an all star cast from the 1970s  on Berlin Classics. I do not know it well and it may not go all that well on stage but it has some nice choruses and is overall better than one would expect from a rather obscure piece.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on October 27, 2015, 09:22:28 AM
Listening to Das Paradies und die Peri. Gorgeous work.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on October 29, 2015, 10:16:37 AM
I stand in awe before Scenes from Goethe's Faust. That Dies irae sequence is mindblowing.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 29, 2015, 10:19:21 AM
Listening to Das Paradies und die Peri. Gorgeous work.

I need to revisit that one.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 29, 2015, 10:19:34 AM
I stand in awe before Scenes from Goethe's Faust.

Well, this one, too.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: kishnevi on October 30, 2015, 12:57:34 PM
Well, this one, too.

Just be sure to firmly repress memories of Mahler as you listen since one of the Scenes Schumann set is the Final Scene.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Bogey on November 07, 2015, 04:44:51 PM
I have been lately enjoying this recording by Matthias Goerne and Vladimir Ashkenazy



Just added to my wish list.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Klaze on November 25, 2015, 11:37:01 AM
I have only recently become acquainted with a few of the piano works outside of the famous ones. Pieces like 6 Etudes in canon form (op.56), Gesange der Fruhe, and I enjoy them a lot. What are some other, relatively more obscure solo piano works which you think are worthwhile? I have been looking at the Le Sage set, but because of the mixed reviews, I'm not so sure if i should go for that one
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jo498 on November 25, 2015, 01:12:50 PM
Not sure if these are the ones you mean, but the canonical studies op. 56 originally for pedal piano are wonderful. Despite the canonical form they do not at all sound like studied counterpoint exercises.
I have never heard the original version on a Pedalflügel, but the arrangements for piano trio and (I think) 4 handed piano (or two pianos?) will do. 
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Klaze on November 25, 2015, 01:54:04 PM
Yeah thanks, that's the piece I meant, I love it. I especially liked the one on the Gaia Scienza disc, other performance i have is by Anderszewski.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on January 20, 2016, 07:43:17 AM
A brief review of Manfred, op. 115, a disk I'd picked-up because I knew how much the orig. poem meant to Schumann.

I erred in describing this Manfred as ‘the full nine yards’ [What are you listening to now thread] :  Schumann used 975 of 1336 lines of Byron’s poem, translated into German of course, and conductor Gerd Albrecht has also made some presumably judicious deletions.  The poet himself, explicitly did not want the work performed theatrically; neither would he have approved of the composer's Faust-like ending, redemption through the love of a woman, or its bowdlerizing – incestuous desires have been deleted.  Schumann nevertheless was obsessed with the poetic hero, and self-identified with the magician.  Predictably, so did Berlioz, but he declined to set the poem due to age and ill health.  Already subject to his famous auditory hallucinations while at work on Manfred, the multiple challenges of tackling the poem could not have helped his mental health.  Or did it provide consolation? : “Ein Friede kam auf mich unsäglich still…” says its hero near Manfred’s conclusion. 

The work's form – Schumann called it a “dramatic poem with music” – will (as it obviously has in the past) turn many listeners away. The emphasis here is on the poetry and music plays a supportive role.  Schumann was so close to this poem that he wanted to create this ambitious, courageous interpretation/homage.  You have to admire his daring.  Multiple hearings (I listened to it five times) dissipated my initial discomfort – prob. would yours as well – and serve to reveal the composer’s intentions.  This is truly a great romantic poem with connections to both Faust and Zarathustra, and, pace Byron, it does make for interesting, though not compelling, theater.  [Attn. non-German speakers : the orig. English text is not provided, but can easily be found in several on-line full-text sites].  Serious Schumann fans, for whom I believe this disk is a must (the composer intended it to be his magnum opus), should know that musically there are moments of exquisite beauty herein, with plenty of illuminating references to Schumann’s outstanding overture (well-conducted here by Albrecht, though it’s unlikely to replace your current favorite).  There are also other moments of seemingly perfunctory composition – the result, surely, of Schumann’s bowing to the text.  The dramatic speakers here leave absolutely nothing to be desired and the singers and recording are also first rate. 

Another incentive to consider listening to this work - it's something of a challenge in our day and age to appreciate the enthusiastic response readers and artists experienced for romantic literature of that period - it literally and literarily (sic) affected their thoughts, emotions, and lives.  There are, of course, many musical works reflective of that, but none more so than Manfred.  Schumann slept with this poem at his side. 




Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Florestan on January 20, 2016, 12:43:51 PM
Many thanks for this very illuminating review, Greg. I will have to get that disc at some point, better sooner than latter meseems.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: 71 dB on February 05, 2016, 12:53:53 PM
Robert Schumann is one of those composers I have never explored much for some reason. It's weird, because I have liked pretty much everything I have heard by him. I seem to have only 12 works by him in my collection:

Kinderszenen
Piano Concerto
Piano Quintet
Piano Sonatas 1-3
Symphonies 1-4 (Mahler orch.)
Violin Sonatas 1 & 2


Schumann didn't live very long, but was very prolific. The thought of exploring his works is intimidating!  ??? Why is there so much music in the world?  :P

The Piano Sonatas I have are played by Bernd Glemser on Naxos. Unfortunately the recording suffers from weird metallic resonance that comes and goes. I guess some of the screws of the piano where loose. Pity.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on February 06, 2016, 03:29:22 AM
If you're in the market for better-sounding recordings of the piano sonatas I can recommend Pollini or Perahia in No. 1 (paired respectively with the Fantasy in C and Kreisleriana) and Argerich or Sokolov in No. 2 (both paired with lots of different things, I think). No recs yet for an good recording of No. 3 because I haven't heard one that is interpretively satisfactory, but if you don't care about that and want to avoid repertoire duplication, probably András Schiff or Florian Henschel. (Both would be expensive-ish though.)

If not, consider finding all of the individual Schumann piano works those recordings are paired with (Fantasy, Kreisleriana, Humoreske, Novelettes, Arabeske, Fantasiestücke Op. 12—as distinct from the Fantasiestücke Op. 111, which are less interesting) plus some others (Carnaval, Davidsbündlertänze, and maybe Waldszenen). Also worthwhile are the three string quartets, piano quartet,  and of course the songs.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jo498 on February 06, 2016, 03:47:15 AM
If you care at all about piano repertoire, first things should be pieces like the ones mentioned in amw's second paragraph. They are different, Carnaval might be the most "flashy", Kreisleriana and Davidsbündlertänze are rather bipolar, the symphonic Etudes are for me a more "classical" and comparably "strict" cyclic piece. Fantasiestücke op.12 is a good mix and also quite accessible. Humoreske is somewhat sprawling and less accessible for me.

If you care at all about Lieder, get at least op.39 (Eichendorff settings) and Dichterliebe. If you like Lieder, get also op.24 (Heine settings, I call this "little Dichterliebe") and the Kerner Lieder op.35? and Andersen Lieder (op.40).

If you like the piano quintet, get the piano quartet and at least the first trio (this one is somewhat unfairly by far the most popular, but the other two are also good). The string quartets can maybe left for a little later (after decades of relative neglect, there are quite a few recordings of them around now, one of the best (Juilliard) still only from Japan)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: 71 dB on February 06, 2016, 03:53:06 AM
If you're in the market for better-sounding recordings of the piano sonatas I can recommend Pollini or Perahia in No. 1 (paired respectively with the Fantasy in C and Kreisleriana) and Argerich or Sokolov in No. 2 (both paired with lots of different things, I think). No recs yet for an good recording of No. 3 because I haven't heard one that is interpretively satisfactory, but if you don't care about that and want to avoid repertoire duplication, probably András Schiff or Florian Henschel. (Both would be expensive-ish though.)

Piano Sonata No. 1 is the one most suffering from that weird resonance/noise. Sonata No. 2 is from a different recordings session. Thanks for the recs!

If not, consider finding all of the individual Schumann piano works those recordings are paired with (Fantasy, Kreisleriana, Humoreske, Novelettes, Arabeske, Fantasiestücke Op. 12—as distinct from the Fantasiestücke Op. 111, which are less interesting) plus some others (Carnaval, Davidsbündlertänze, and maybe Waldszenen). Also worthwhile are the three string quartets, piano quartet,  and of course the songs.

Yes, I am interested to explore.  :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: 71 dB on February 06, 2016, 03:57:30 AM
If you care at all about piano repertoire, first things should be pieces like the ones mentioned in amw's second paragraph. They are different, Carnaval might be the most "flashy", Kreisleriana and Davidsbündlertänze are rather bipolar, the symphonic Etudes are for me a more "classical" and comparably "strict" cyclic piece. Fantasiestücke op.12 is a good mix and also quite accessible. Humoreske is somewhat sprawling and less accessible for me.

If you care at all about Lieder, get at least op.39 (Eichendorff settings) and Dichterliebe. If you like Lieder, get also op.24 (Heine settings, I call this "little Dichterliebe") and the Kerner Lieder op.35? and Andersen Lieder (op.40).

If you like the piano quintet, get the piano quartet and at least the first trio (this one is somewhat unfairly by far the most popular, but the other two are also good). The string quartets can maybe left for a little later (after decades of relative neglect, there are quite a few recordings of them around now, one of the best (Juilliard) still only from Japan)
Lieders aren't my thing.

I browsed Schumann CDs on Amazon and almost lost my mind! Now listening to Schumann on Spotify. (Piano Trio 3/Naxos)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Florestan on February 06, 2016, 04:01:53 AM
Lieders aren't my thing.

Have you tried the symphonies? They usually get a bad press but I cannot see why. They are full of passion, feelings and emotions and contain some of the most memorable melodies you will ever hear.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: 71 dB on February 06, 2016, 04:05:17 AM
Have you tried the symphonies? They usually get a bad press but I cannot see why. They are full of passion, feelings and emotions and contain some of the most memorable melodies you will ever hear.
As I listed above, I have the BIS set of Symphonies. Yesterday I listened to the Sawallich set on Spotify. Today I have listened to the Cello Concerto (Kliegel)

I agree the symphonies are good.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Florestan on February 06, 2016, 04:06:28 AM
As I listed above, I have the BIS set of Symphonies. Yesterday I listened to the Sawallich set on Spotify. Today I have listened to the Cello Concerto (Kliegel)

What do you think of them?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: 71 dB on February 06, 2016, 04:07:53 AM
What do you think of them?

Everything good stuff.  ;) Even lieders (sampled) not jsut my thing
'
I understand why Elgar kept Schumann in high regard. There's much Schumann in Elgar,
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: EigenUser on February 06, 2016, 04:10:33 AM
Everything good stuff.  ;) Even lieders (sampled) not jsut my thing
Try his Concertpiece for four horns and orchestra. That is my favorite Schumann.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on February 06, 2016, 04:10:52 AM
Schumann is the composer who converted me to Lieder. For me, so far, he is the very best in the genre.

Whereas I have mixed feelings about the early piano works that seem to have made his name. Some of them are just too choppy and 'bipolar' for my taste. I definitely do like the Symphonic Etudes and the Fantasy in C.

Of the chamber music, I personally love the piano quartet.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: 71 dB on February 06, 2016, 04:25:32 AM
Try his Concertpiece for four horns and orchestra. That is my favorite Schumann.
Ok, I will.

Schumann is the composer who converted me to Lieder. For me, so far, he is the very best in the genre.
Maybe the same happens to me. You never know...

Whereas I have mixed feelings about the early piano works that seem to have made his name. Some of them are just too choppy and 'bipolar' for my taste. I definitely do like the Symphonic Etudes and the Fantasy in C.

Of the chamber music, I personally love the piano quartet.
Ok. I am completely lost at what to buy. I should be exploring contemporary composers and now this Schumannia... ::)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Florestan on February 06, 2016, 04:32:08 AM
I should be exploring contemporary composers and now this Schumannia... ::)

They are not mutually exclusive.  :D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: 71 dB on February 06, 2016, 05:02:29 AM
They are not mutually exclusive.  :D

Of course not, but it makes exploring a longer process. My next purchase could be Schumann, but it can also be Weinberg, Brotons, Zwilich or something else! Only 5 weeks ago I discovered Ives... ???

The Naxos Piano Trio Vol. 2 disc is very good! Now listening to the Piano Quartet (also Naxos). Spotify of Spotify!

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: 71 dB on February 06, 2016, 05:54:36 AM
I think I have listened to too much Schumann during the last 24 hours. I need a break. I go out to walk. Need fresh air...

 :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2016, 06:59:39 AM
Ok. I am completely lost at what to buy. I should be exploring contemporary composers and now this Schumannia... ::)

That's totally natural and is just a sign that your on a well trodden path. Heinz Holliger is very interested in Schumann, buy his CD with Kreisleriana and his own Partita played Alexander Lonquich, and also try to hear his Romancendres, which was also influenced by something by Schumann (can't remember what)  Just looking quickly through the discussion above then I can say that I didn't get on with Bernd Glemser-- who to lack a bit of madness. I am clear that there is an absolutely essential recording of the first sonata though -- not Pollini IMO, but Virssaladze, on the label "Live Classics" I think, with op 22 and Waldszenen.

I know nothing about his orcherstral music,but I have listened to the chamber music, especially the wonderful Märchenerzählungen. Quite recently I listened to the string quartets in fact -- I heard The Leipzig Quartet -- I prefer Schumann's quartets to Brahms's.

As far as songs are concerned there are too many for me to think about right now. Dichterliebe is full of irony, and IMO noone is better in it than Brigitte Fassbaender.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: 71 dB on February 06, 2016, 07:18:42 AM
I know nothing about his orcherstral music,

How is that even possible?   ???
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Florestan on February 06, 2016, 11:54:38 AM
How is that even possible?   ???

That´s what I´d like to know too.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: jlaurson on February 12, 2016, 05:04:42 AM


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbAoB0QWAAAPCyG.jpg:large)
R. Schumann, The Symphonies
Simon Gaudenz / Odense SO
cpo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00VH694IU/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00VH694IU/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00VH694IU/goodmusicguideuk-21)


NOICE! That's some of the best Schumann I've heard in a long time. Reminds me of listening to Paavo's Beethoven.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: 71 dB on February 14, 2016, 04:25:37 AM
Since I already spent 2/3 of my monthly budget on that larger jpc order (Boccherini/Weinberg/Taneyev), I'm hesitant to buy Schumann right now. Maybe in March then...  :-\

At least I finally bought more Boccherini over a year after I initially planned doing so in the end of 2014.  ;D

Classical music is not about what you listen to and what you buy. It's about what you don't buy and listen to.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: jlaurson on April 13, 2016, 04:11:55 PM
Latest on Forbes.com:


Classical CD Of The Week:
Danish Schumann With A Punch (http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek007)


Until not so long ago, Wolfgang Sawallisch’s set of Schumann Symphonies was
the universal consensus reference-recording which conveniently meant that
thinking about new recordings wasn’t necessary – nor listening...

(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/03/Forbes_Classica-CD-of-the-Week_CPO_SACD_SCHUMANN_Odense_Gaudenz_Symphonies1200-1200x469.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/04/13/classical-cd-of-the-week-danish-schumann-with-a-punch/ (http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek007)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Que on April 15, 2016, 02:58:02 AM
Nice review, Jens!  :)

Q
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: jlaurson on April 16, 2016, 06:18:13 AM
Nice review, Jens!  :)

Q

Thanks for reading!!!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 16, 2016, 01:50:32 PM
Thanks for reading!!!

Thanks Jens - excellent review and comments - just checked my collection of Schumann's Symphonies and just have Zinman & Gardiner - guess that I've not thought about these in a while?  SO - led me to look for some additional reviews - an excellent one from All Music and the usual Gramophone comments (I seem to never agree w/ them - maybe just me) (I've attached those reviews for others who may be interested) - BUT, I've put this 2-CD set in my Amazon cart - Dave :)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: jlaurson on May 19, 2016, 02:03:15 PM

Latest on Forbes.com:
Classical CD Of The Week: Once-In-A-Decade Schumann (http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek012a)

The three Schumann String Quartets (op.41/1-3) are not as present on the recital- or recording
scene as one might assume, given the fame of the composer and the relative popularity of the
genre. We notice this when there comes a recording our way – as seems to happen every decade
or so – that turns our heads and makes us go: “Woha! Right – those works!”...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ci2stpeXAAAXB5j.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/05/19/classicalcdoftheweek_schumann_hermes-quartet_la-dolce-volta/#5147bc8c345a (http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek012a)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: kishnevi on May 19, 2016, 05:13:23 PM
Latest on Forbes.com:
Classical CD Of The Week: Once-In-A-Decade Schumann (http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek012a)

The three Schumann String Quartets (op.41/1-3) are not as present on the recital- or recording
scene as one might assume, given the fame of the composer and the relative popularity of the
genre. We notice this when there comes a recording our way – as seems to happen every decade
or so – that turns our heads and makes us go: “Woha! Right – those works!”...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ci2stpeXAAAXB5j.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/05/19/classicalcdoftheweek_schumann_hermes-quartet_la-dolce-volta/#5147bc8c345a (http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek012a)

Jens, did you ever hear the Ysaye Quartet in these works.  Perhaps a matter of imprinting, but I have never found a set that pleased me better.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: jlaurson on May 19, 2016, 08:41:16 PM
Jens, did you ever hear the Ysaye Quartet in these works.  Perhaps a matter of imprinting, but I have never found a set that pleased me better.

Yes, I (must) have; I know I have the CD. But to be honest, I don't remember it. I wouldn't suggest that that is in any way indicative of its quality. But it fit my narrative.  ;)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Parsifal on May 29, 2016, 11:30:37 PM
It has taken me until now to listen to a recording of Schumann's cello concerto. A noble work, and Janos Starker's recording with Giulini from the 50's is gorgeous for Starker's commanding tone and sensibility. Fine music and music making.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: jlaurson on June 15, 2016, 08:45:07 AM
Listening to Rattle's Berlin Schumann cycle... and frankly, it's a bore. Was suspecting razor-sharp awesomeness a la his Brahms... but instead it strikes me as middle-of-the-road; perhaps fast... but not exacting nor exciting.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 06, 2016, 12:16:21 AM

Classical CD Of The Week: Schumann Triptych Continued
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/10/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_HARMONIA-MUNDI-PIAS_Schumann_Melnikov_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/05/classical-cd-of-the-week-schuman-triptych-continued-2/#46f90b5b2733 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/05/classical-cd-of-the-week-schuman-triptych-continued-2/#46f90b5b2733)

I'm trying to make these CD of the Week posts as varying as possible, but it seems, looking through this thread, that they have a surprising Schumann-heavy side to them, in the romantic field. Which is strange, since I never thought myself such a Schumann-maven. Except that, yes, I really have come around to late Schumann in the last seven or so years.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 22, 2016, 06:27:47 AM


Classical CD Of The Week: Or How I Learned To Love Late Schumann
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/12/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_LABEL-HERISSON_Schumann-Last-Thoughts_Soo-Park_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
Classical CD Of The Week: Or How I Learned To Love Late Schumann (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/12/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-or-how-i-learned-to-love-late-schumann/#d0ead9d484a5)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 06, 2017, 11:16:11 AM

(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/01/Forbes-Best-Classical-Recordings-of-2016-N07-Schumann-Gaudenz_Symphonies_cpo_Odense_laurson-1200x470.jpg?width=960) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/01/01/the-10-best-classical-recordings-of-2016-new-releases/#207026276802)


The 10 Best Classical Recordings Of 2016 (New Releases)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1HzdAWXgAArnYh.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/01/01/the-10-best-classical-recordings-of-2016-new-releases/#7799de0e6802 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/01/01/the-10-best-classical-recordings-of-2016-new-releases/#7799de0e6802)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on April 24, 2017, 10:42:55 PM
OK this is probably a dumb question, but is No. 8 of the Albumblätter "Lied ohne Ende" or "Leid ohne Ende"? The first one makes more sense, but I've seen both.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on April 24, 2017, 10:54:37 PM
Lied.

You've seen both because people make typos, especially when they're dealing with another language.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on April 24, 2017, 10:56:13 PM
True, but I'm surprised that the latest Henle edition (among others) has fallen victim to that particular typo.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on April 24, 2017, 11:06:29 PM
True, but I'm surprised that the latest Henle edition (among others) has fallen victim to that particular typo.

Henle? Wow.

*goes to look*

Yep, and they are quite definite about it. Everywhere in the critical commentary PDF it's "Leid" and in the English part it gets translated as "Sorrow", so they know what they're doing. But the old editions on IMSLP including the one edited by Clara all say "Lied". Henle says nothing about it so it doesn't look as if they are resolving a controversy or anything.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on April 24, 2017, 11:09:17 PM
I've decided to email them. See what they say.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on April 24, 2017, 11:23:45 PM
Definitely interested. It seems like in addition to the first editions they had access to an autograph held in a private collection, which must be where the title comes from, but they could only get hold of a handwritten copy by someone else.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on April 24, 2017, 11:45:19 PM
The first doesn't make much sense in German, really... And knowing Schumann even the least bit, around the time these were composed (1830 -- or any time, really), "Leid ohne Ende" makes all the send. Compare, in mood, to op.68, for example ("Erster Verlust"). I find it is fairly unambiguously "Leid ohne Ende" and everything else is an over-correction from a non-native speakers that somehow got stuck.

Um, how is Clara Schumann/Breitkopf and Hartel a non-native speaker? And what exactly doesn't make sense about "song without end"? If you can have a song without words (Lied ohne Worter, Mendelssohn), I fail to see what's wrong about a song without end.

And frankly I don't know what's sorrowful about it. "Erster Verlust" is in a minor key. The piece we are talking about is in a major key, so I'm doing a comparison of mood and not getting any similarity in mood at all.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jo498 on April 24, 2017, 11:57:04 PM
While it is a possible typo in either direction it is very unlikely that a German editor in the 19th century would not have spotted such an error. Nr.2 is titled "Leides Ahnung", so it would be really strange if Clara or a person at Breitkopf would have misread "Leid" instead of "Lied" in the later piece
I definitely disagree that "Lied ohne Ende" is senseless or even odd in German and I am afraid that it could really be ambiguous unless there is a clear autograph or sth. like that. (Therefore it is strange that it is not adressed in a critical edition.)
For me the piece is not sad enough for "endless sorrow" but "song without end" is not obviously fitting either (it would rather be applied to a round or sth. like that, apparently there was a student song in the mid-19th century called "Lied ohne Ende" but this would have been a folksy and maybe ribald song with many stanzas, nothing as poignant as Schumann's piece.

op.124 is a collection of older pieces from the 1830s, I am not sure one can easily argue biographically here.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on April 24, 2017, 11:59:32 PM
I can in fact find several references on German websites to "Lied ohne Ende" that have nothing to do with Schumann, including the student song and a later composition called "Ein Lied ohne Ende", so it clearly makes perfect sense in German.

EDIT: Oh, I even found audio for another one. Track 4/Track 12, depending on whether you want vocals. https://www.kindermusikkaufhaus.de/kuenstler/beate-lambert/von-liebe-umgeben/
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on April 25, 2017, 12:01:51 AM
The Fantasiestücke connection also seems to me to make "Lied ohne Ende" a more likely title, considering that it shares a key and approximate tempo with (and is in some ways a counterpart to) the final piece of that set, Ende vom Lied. Afaik the piece is dated to mid 1837 and was found in the same sketchbook as sketches for the Fantasiestücke.

(The title is fitting in that the piece is based on a 4 bar melody that is repeated and varied but never comes to a conventional conclusion. Of course Schumann could have also meant the piece to be "endlessly sorrowful" and maybe would have enjoyed the present day ambiguity.)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2017, 12:16:49 AM
With Mendelssohn it's Lieder ohne Worte...

Seriously?  Lieder is plural, Lied is singular, and you can quite readily find both depending on whether one piece is presented or several.

I am genuinely questioning your German at this point, after a remark like that.

EDIT: And in the case of op.109, you're just flat out wrong. It has been quite happily called "Lied ohne Worte" since its publication.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: bwv 1080 on April 28, 2017, 10:17:29 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/TYdxYpRMlRE

This was a direct inspiration for RS's op 28, particularly the duet texture in the 3rd mvmt (at about the 6:30 mark) tying to the duet in Op 28 no 2
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2017, 02:14:50 PM
Henle's reply:

Quote
The Henle edition of the "Albumblätter" gives no comment to the title of no. 8 because all disposable sources (the engraver's copy corrected by Schumann, the original edition also corrected by Schumann) have "Leid ohne Ende". However, we have no access to the autograph in a private collection, and so we cannot indicate the title of this source.
But we guess rather an error in the Breitkopf edition of the Complete Works than a different reading by Clara taken from the autograph.

So they are saying the now far more common "Lied" is not on the original edition. Interesting.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2017, 02:19:24 PM
Also interesting: I've just found a PhD paper saying that Lied ohne Ende (the alternative "Lied" title is noted) contains a motive representing Clara also found in other Schumann pieces such as op.17. Certainly I can find other references to such a motif existing.

It attributes this to longing for Clara during a period when they were kept separated by her father.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: milk on May 16, 2017, 03:27:34 AM
I see a good recommendation for this on musicweb. Anyone else heard this?
(https://media3.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3149020224328.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 16, 2017, 06:11:20 AM
I see a good recommendation for this on musicweb. Anyone else heard this?
(https://media3.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3149020224328.jpg)

Am in the process.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_7dhvtXYAAaxQ3.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Schubert on @piasclassicsusa:http://amzn.to/2rlxagD 
w/#MathiasGoerne & the finest artistic a… http://ift.tt/2rl27kd

 (http://amzn.to/2rlxagD)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: milk on May 16, 2017, 10:05:47 PM
Am in the process.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_7dhvtXYAAaxQ3.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Schubert on @piasclassicsusa:http://amzn.to/2rlxagD 
w/#MathiasGoerne & the finest artistic a… http://ift.tt/2rl27kd

 (http://amzn.to/2rlxagD)
Let us know if your socks are knocked off. 
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 16, 2017, 10:23:11 PM
Let us know if your socks are knocked off.

Will do. (It would take a lot, right now, for it to knock 'em off, though, because I pulled the knee-highs all the way up and tucked them in under the Lederhosen.  :D)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: milk on May 17, 2017, 12:39:29 AM
Will do. (It would take a lot, right now, for it to knock 'em off, though, because I pulled the knee-highs all the way up and tucked them in under the Lederhosen.  :D)
;D
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Eli on June 01, 2017, 05:56:29 PM
Recently getting into Schumann. His piano quartet has blown me away. I prefer it to the quintet, which is also great. The 4th movement is amazing..Being May I've also given Dichterliebe many hearings. So intense!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on July 21, 2017, 03:01:31 AM
I've started a chronological exploration of Schumann (partly because I've just bought the Hyperion song box set, which is presented chronologically).

Putting together a reasonably decent chronology was the first challenge: opus numbers are frequently no help, though in fact a surprisingly large amount of information about composition dates is available thanks to Schumann's very extensive writing.

Right now I'm listening to Papillons, and I feel like I finally understand it these days. But is there any precedent for music like this? To my ears it's a truly astonishing work, with all these little fragments of waltzes and polonaises welded together. I can't think of anything I've heard pre-Schumann that resembles it, though maybe that's just my limited knowledge.

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on July 21, 2017, 03:15:42 AM
Papillons was not only a revolutionary and probably unprecedented work but also one that, in its extreme atomisation and "jump cuts" between different types of music, is without successors until the twentieth century avant-garde. (Ok, a few other 19th-century composers did imitate it—Dvořák's Silhouettes for one. To my ears less successfully, because Dvořák demands too much of a structure from his materials.) Like I said I can't immediately think of any precedents either, and Schumann wasn't listening to music when he was writing it; he was reading novels by Jean Paul.
Quote from: wiki
He took the Romantic formlessness of the novel to extremes: Schlegel called his novels soliloquies, in which he makes his readers take part [...]. Jean Paul habitually played with a multitude of droll and bizarre ideas: his work is characterized by wild metaphors as well as by digressive and partly labyrinthine plots.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on July 21, 2017, 03:23:24 AM
Papillons was not only a revolutionary and probably unprecedented work but also one that, in its extreme atomisation and "jump cuts" between different types of music, is without successors until the twentieth century avant-garde. (Ok, a few other 19th-century composers did imitate it—Dvořák's Silhouettes for one. To my ears less successfully, because Dvořák demands too much of a structure from his materials.) Like I said I can't immediately think of any precedents either, and Schumann wasn't listening to music when he was writing it; he was reading novels by Jean Paul.

Yes, I've read several bits of context about Schumann's love of Jean Paul, and just how literature-focused Schumann was at the time (and indeed, remained in a lot of ways). But he was also madly in love with the music of Schubert as well. He actually compared Jean Paul and Schubert.

The more I look into Schumann the more fascinating I find him.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on July 21, 2017, 03:57:35 AM
The parallel isn't totally inappropriate—Schubert did write a few pieces that are basically just long strings of waltzes/Ländler/etc, intended for actual dancing at Viennese balls.

https://www.youtube.com/v/T5fV9QlYSP8

Definitely nothing like Papillons though.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on July 21, 2017, 07:11:02 AM
For a Schubertian pre-echo of papillons, may try the Polonaises D 824 (good performance with Lili Kraus in fact) and maybe D 599.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jo498 on July 21, 2017, 08:03:12 AM
I also think that the Diabelli variations could have been some inspiration for Schumann's cycles of dances. Although the Diabellis are obviously far more unified than Papillons or later Schumann cycles.

Schumann came comparably late to music, as a teenager he was already extremely well read and writing/translating all kinds of stuff and he did a few semesters of law studies (apparently more drinking and playing piano than actually studying) before he finally decided to focus on music. But some writers like Jean Paul (who was thoroughly German, his real name was Johann Paul Friedrich Richter), E.T.A. Hoffmann, Goethe and Heine remained very important throughout his life.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: The One on January 22, 2018, 12:33:22 PM
A few timings of Symphony No 1 and No 2 from Reblem and me

Sym. 1   Sym. 2   
    -      38'45   Abbado OM
33'23   42'41   Bernstein, VPO
    -      43'37   Celibidache Munchner
30'02   37'29   Gardiner
29'21   38'01   Gaudenz
30'38   34'47   Goodman
32'46   36'37   Haitink
31'36   35'37   Harnoncourt
32'00   35'50   Jordan
35'28   41'05   Klemperer
33'26   34'40   Konwitschny
30'51   37'09   Kubelik
34'46   39'07   Kubelik BavRSO
32'00   35'38   Masur LG
30'48   33'24   Masur, LPO
29'02      -       Munch BSO
33'49   36'42   Muti NPO
32'14   37'35   Norrington
31'13   33'58   Paray
31'19   38'16   Rattle
32'13   37'33   Sawallisch
33'39   38'08   Sinopoli
30'31   36'22   Szell
29'17   35'51   Zinman

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on September 23, 2018, 10:15:03 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Ht9pbM6qL._SL1200_.jpg)

Schumann Märchenerzählungen - it's a long time since I heard this, it used to be one of the things by Schumann I was very fond of. Hakkinen's has things to say about what they're doing which is once again bringing me back to something which, personally, I probably have only recently started to appreciate -- the way an instrument inspires a performance style.

Quote from: Aapo Hakkinen here https://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blurbs_reviews.asp?item_code=8.573589&catNum=573589&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English#
A note about the instruments

Most of these performances are first recordings on period instruments. While less stable than their modern counterparts, the instruments for which Schumann composed greatly facilitate expressing the intimacy and volatility, even the ‘heavenly lightness’ of his music, and paradoxically make it sound more modern.

The clarity and poignancy of Viennese pianos (Streicher, Graf, etc.) were not to Schumann’s liking. At the same time, Érard pianos in Paris and London were already approaching the modern instrument’s tone and touch, prioritising volume and safety. However, in the golden years of French piano building exactly coinciding with Schumann’s creative work, the pianos of Érard’s great rival Pleyel, with their simple, light single escapement action, still retained much of the Viennese Prellmechanik’s directness, precision and sensitivity. This resemblance did not go unnoticed and was in fact greatly appreciated by Chopin and many of his pupils. Chopin called them ‘a perfidious traitor’. A student of his once remarked: ‘what came out perfectly on my solid and robust Érard became brusque and ugly on Chopin’s piano.’ Chopin found instruments such as the Érard destroyed the touch: ‘It makes no difference whether you tap the keys lightly or strike them more forcefully.’

Chopin was also quoted saying, ‘When I feel out of sorts […] I play on an Érard where I easily find a ready-made tone. But when I feel good and strong enough to find my own individual sound, then I need a Pleyel.’² Certainly the action of the instrument heard on this recording, though capable of almost infinite nuance and subtlety, calls for a far more precise and direct touch than that of an Érard piano (the inertia of the Érard’s double escapement action evens out irregularities of touch) and entails a distinctive playing technique quite different from lusher-sounding Érards of the same time, let alone equivalents of our day.

Camille Pleyel (1788–1855) assumed a leading role at Pleyel & Cie in the 1820s, maintaining a close relationship with many famous musicians and artists, including Clara Schumann from 1839—but ‘how was she to use the Pleyel (which she preferred) without insulting Pierre Érard?’³—on the 1850 daguerreotype, Robert and Clara pose at a Pleyel piano.

Pleyels of the 1830s and 1840s in their original set-up are known for their round, warm and sensual sound whose beauty remains unsurpassed in the history of piano building. A contemporary account of the qualities of a Pleyel piano describes the tone as ‘acquiring a special satisfying quality, the upper register bright and silvery, the middle penetrating and intense, the bass clear and vigorous. The striking of the hammers has been designed to give a sound that is pure, clear, even and intense. The carefully made hammers produce—when one plays piano—a sweet and velvety sound that gradually increases in brightness and volume as one applies more pressure on the keyboard.’4 By choice of design, damping was light and not instantaneous, producing a characteristic after-ring equally far from the Viennese and from the modern piano’s aesthetic. Demand for this special beauty was short-lived however, and by the 1860s the vast majority of surviving Pleyels from the 1840s (especially their hammers and stringing) were radically altered to conform to new tastes and requirements.

The elegantly singing, moelleux middle register and the ‘silvery, somewhat veiled’ (Liszt) treble of the early Pleyels, as well as their ability to profile and change character with dynamics, were largely due to the original very soft, as of yet not entirely constructible hammer-felt made of rabbit and hare fur, silk and eider-down, after 1835 also including fibres such as cashmere and vigogne. Pleyel changed to denser, stiffer and more resilient double-layered felt made entirely of wool later than Érard and Pape, only after c. 1847. This modern felt still used in most restorations results in a louder, more brilliant but thin and percussive sound, and a challenging balance between the upper and lower registers.

The grand piano used on this recording was built by Camille Pleyel in 1843. It is essentially identical to the one Chopin owned, with casework of Cuban mahogany with brass inlay. Though once common, such instruments are now rather rare, the majority having been concentrated in Paris where many succumbed to the effects of civil strife and war, notably the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, when they were burned, together with harpsichords confiscated from the nobility during the Revolution, for warmth during the siege of Paris. According to the Pleyel archives, our piano, No. 10563, was delivered to Count Joseph de Monti (1766–1850) in April 1843. It stayed in the family’s possession until it was acquired in 2015 from an ascendant’s estate in Nantes. De Monti is an ancient Florentine noble family that settled in Nantes in the 16th century and has included in its ranks countless notable politicians, generals and ecclesiastics (among them Pope Julius III). In the 19th century, the family were stark royalists, and comte Joseph’s famous son, Edouard de Monti (1808–1877), was companion and confidant of the Count of Chambord—Henry V, Legitimist pretender to the throne of France—during his long years of travel in exile. Quite understandably, the piano ended up playing a lesser part in the family, and as a result the 1843 Pleyel never needed to be modified; the hammers, felts, strings and action remain in their original condition.

Johann Gottlieb Kotte (1797–1857), Dresden native and principal clarinettist of the Hofkapelle, is mentioned in Schumann’s diary many times starting from October 1837. In February 1849 when the Fantasiestücke, Op. 73 were composed, Kotte visited Schumann at least five times, and probably provided guidance reflected in the autograph revisions. He is known to have used instruments with eleven keys similar to the one heard on the present recording (Peter van der Poel, 2002, after Heinrich Grenser, Dresden, c. 1810).

The string instruments use gut strings.

Performance notes

Obvious problems regarding performance practice include variable trill beginnings and endings, the use of portamento in string playing, Schumann’s constant employment of >, fp, sf, sfp, ^ and <>—the last one indicating a special warmth or vibrato as well as agogic accent—and the extent to which detached bow strokes and sharply separated articulation might have gained ground and partly replaced earlier connected style and portato in the 1840s. Some of the issues especially pertaining to piano playing include pedalling and arpeggiation.

The usual expectation of Schumann’s generation was constant full pedalling, ‘always as the changes of harmony demand’ (Schumann’s own footnote to Op. 11). However, this was more for the purpose of adding resonance or accentuation than to help legato. ‘Syncopated’ or legato pedalling was still considered advanced in Liszt’s later years, when he recommended its use ‘especially in slow tempi’. Moriz Rosenthal wrote in 1924 of legato pedalling’s general adoption after Liszt’s death, calling it ‘the most distinctive difference between the piano playing of 40 years ago and of today.’5

Gustav Jansen, author of one of the first major Schumann monographs, provides a colourful account of the special magic that Schumann’s own playing exuded. Having secured an invitation to visit the composer’s rooms at twilight, Jansen slipped into his studio unobserved. Only when Schumann paused to light one of his Havana cigars did he become aware of his visitor’s presence. His playing of the Nachtstücke, Op. 23, Jansen reports, ‘sounded as if the pedal were always half down, so completely did the figurations melt into one another. But the melody was delicately set in relief.’6 According to another contemporary listener, Hieronymus Truhn, Schumann played ‘with little accentuation, but with generous use of the pedals.’7 The shape of the Pleyel sound makes long, proto-impressionistic pedalling effects (familiar from Chopin’s most careful markings as well as Schumann’s more sporadic ones) possible.

Other accounts of Schumann’s own playing stem from Oswald Lorenz, who mentioned Schumann’s liberal use of pedal, yet maintained that no excessive blurring of harmonies was evident. Alfred Doerffel contradicted him, describing Schumann’s playing as ‘it seemed as if the pedals were always half down, so that the note groups mingled.’8 Friedrich Wieck (1853) advocated a rather restricted, structural use of the una corda—as an echo effect, or in larger (mainly slow) complete sections with rich chordal accompaniment, instead of switching during continuous phrases.

It is clear that arpeggiation of chords was normal throughout the 19th century, especially in slow movements and accompaniments where it was almost ubiquitous. For example, Domenico Corri (1810) gave a lengthy demonstration of slow and fast arpeggio, and where it was to be avoided (on short notes, successions of octaves ‘unless they are very long notes, or have emphasis’). Samuel Wesley (1829) observed that pianists ‘do not put down the keys simultaneously […] but one after another, beginning at the lowest note.’ Czerny and Thalberg considered arpeggiation in the modern style, especially when accompanying a melody, to be a matter of course. Several reports mention Brahms’s ‘incessant spreading of chords in the slower tempos’ and the piano rolls of, for example, Carl Reinecke (1824–1910) and Theodor Leschetizky (1830–1915) document the tradition of abundant arpeggiation and extensive dislocation between the hands into the early years of the 20th century. Later recordings by Clara Schumann’s pupils (many of them still using pianos with the single escapement action perfected by Camille Pleyel) such as Fanny Davies (1861–1934) and Adelina de Lara (1872–1961) offer further perspective.

In an aphoristic ‘Davidsbündler’ dialogue from Schumann’s Denk- und Dichtbüchlein, Eusebius maintains: ‘Two different readings of the same work can often be of equal value’—to which Meister Raro replies: ‘The original one is usually better.’9 In any case, Schumann’s numerous alterations usually resulted in a less fanciful, less poetic product. We adopted some readings from surviving early versions, which are especially helpful in clarifying his attitude to repeated sections and thus the overall form in Op. 73, Op. 88 and Op. 111.

Claudio Arrau talked of the necessity to ‘live Schumann’—indeed it is a great challenge to try to understand his world in its entirety: other music and instruments (many different kinds of pianos and other keyboard instruments of the time), the literary sensibility and influences, etc. This year has also seen us preparing the composer’s late vocal-orchestral works for concerts and recording. His poetic Hausmusik represents a motion from the outer to the inner world, and a desire to mediate between them—like Jean Paul (1763 –1825), to bathe the quotidian ‘realities of the pastor’s life’ in ‘idealizing moonshine’.10 John Daverio has called breathlessness born of panic, even terror, a key feature of Schumann’s piano style. However, contrary to what has often been suggested, the fragmented forms, depression and Zerrissenheit (‘inner turmoil’) of his early works never quite re-appear in the esoteric late chamber music, giving way to more delicate nuances, the ‘inner voices’, in a heightened intensity of expression—Florestan and Eusebius having become functions of a single character—even in piano works such as the Fantasiestücke, Op. 111 where the whimsical opening Kreisleriana gives way to Schumann’s ‘A flat major soul’ and the finale’s Florestinian pathos. Through every bar, his heart is beating sometimes loud, often soft, but always fast.

Aapo Häkkinen, 2017


Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: bwv 1080 on September 24, 2018, 04:51:29 AM
Thanks for posting that - just started listening.  The period instruments work really well here, much like in Mozart's piano quartets.  Do you know if there are plans for this ensemble to record more of Schumann's chamber music?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Overtones on February 26, 2019, 01:42:11 AM
I apologize for a question that is very likely going to sound naive.
But I do not have musical training, and I cannot find mentions to this on the web.

Is there a connection between the slow movement themes in the Cello Concerto and in the Piano Quartet?
To my ears it is quite clear, but I would like to read about it.
Is it a sheer kind of self-quotation that no one really cares about?
Or is it something more?
Or is something less i.e. I hear it but it does not really exist and no one ever talked about it?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Biffo on February 26, 2019, 01:53:41 AM
I apologize for a question that is very likely going to sound naive.
But I do not have musical training, and I cannot find mentions to this on the web.

Is there a connection between the slow movement themes in the Cello Concerto and in the Piano Quartet?
To my ears it is quite clear, but I would like to read about it.
Is it a sheer kind of self-quotation that no one really cares about?
Or is it something more?
Or is something less i.e. I hear it but it does not really exist and no one ever talked about it?

Thanks in advance.

The very brief notes for the Beaux Arts Trio of the PQ says '... an Andante cantabile, initially a warm cello song'. No connection is made with the Cello Concerto. The only other recording I have, Jerusalem Qt, has fuller notes but make no mention of any connection. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Overtones on February 26, 2019, 02:20:24 AM
Thanks anyway.
Do you hear anything like that by the way? I am starting to think it's just me. I would like to have the tools to describe when and how I hear the connection :(
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 26, 2019, 01:11:52 PM
If you hear it, then it's real.

 8)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 26, 2019, 02:29:00 PM
I apologize for a question that is very likely going to sound naive.
But I do not have musical training, and I cannot find mentions to this on the web.

Is there a connection between the slow movement themes in the Cello Concerto and in the Piano Quartet?
To my ears it is quite clear, but I would like to read about it.
Is it a sheer kind of self-quotation that no one really cares about?
Or is it something more?
Or is something less i.e. I hear it but it does not really exist and no one ever talked about it?

Thanks in advance.

Not off the top of my head, but generally Schumann is fond of quoting phrases (not consciously, necessarily) in various works. Not as often and persistently as Mendelssohn (his 2nd Symphony can be found in any number of works; there's a whole set of Mendelssohnian musical catch-phrases), but often enough. So I wouldn't be surprised if you're onto something. (Also consider the Violin Concerto and the Ghost Variations, one of the more obvious and more often commented-upon examples.)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 22, 2019, 02:23:04 PM
Latest on ClassicsToday - alas, it's with samples and therefore "insider content".


No Question: "Frage" Represents the Finest in Schumann Lieder
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4vtcP-WAAAohSQ.jpg) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/no-question-the-finest-in-schumann-lieder/)

...everthing else is Gaslight...

although I readily grant that Gerhaher's qualities are a.) in part restricted to a text-based appreciation of these songs and b.) not always at is best on recording... whereas Goerne works VERY well on record and not quite as well in recital. But still.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on April 22, 2019, 08:01:55 PM
Can you give an example to compare and contrast the two?

Text based sounds good to me!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 23, 2019, 02:42:19 AM
Can you give an example to compare and contrast the two?

Text based sounds good to me!

Goerne is a virile bass; in concert he's prone to sound like an elk booming in a barrel. But he can be melodious and although he looks like a bouncer to a nightclub, he's quintessential East German Bildungsbuergertum; well educated and considerate of what he does. He certainly interprets text, but the focus is on sonority, for the most part.

Gerhaher meanwhile is personified doubt; he deconstructs, he analyses, he questions... himself first and foremost. He's not a trained singer in the same way Goerne is... coming to the trade relatively late. His focus is on getting the text across... and he deeply empathizes with the doubts and blackness of Schumann, his favorite composer by far. His singing is in essence always a new, modern form of Sprechgesang... even as his voice seems to have taken on a little volume (at the cost of nuance? Not in this recording but a recent performance of Elias suggested as much) from doing a little bit more opera.

I consider them the No.1 & 2 in Lied on disc... followed by the likes of Boesch and Guera (tenor) and a slew of fine English singers, basically. Maltman and Padmore (tenor) and the like.

Not quite sure if that's what you were looking for...
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on April 23, 2019, 03:44:19 AM

Not quite sure if that's what you were looking for...

Very much so, that'll inspire me to listen. Thanks

Goerne is a virile bass; in concert he's prone to sound like an elk booming in a barrel. But he can be melodious and although he looks like a bouncer to a nightclub, he's quintessential East German


When Goerne first came to London I saw him with a mate who was -- is --  always on the look out for attractive men to seduce, or to fantasise about. He saw Goerne, svelte, elegant Goerne, young, and immediately had the hots for him  . . .

And then we saw him again together in the Wigmore hall about five years after,maybe a bit more, and, as you say, he'd become become an elk. My thought is that we all end up looking like what we eat and Germans eat a lot of piggy. (fais gaffe!)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on April 23, 2019, 04:09:11 AM
You took a post about how the man sounds and made it entirely about how he LOOKS.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on April 23, 2019, 04:17:58 AM
That's true.

The truth is that the first time I saw him I really enjoyed the concert and I thought, here's a great Schubert singer in the making, like the young FiDi in fact. Good with words, great detail, eye contact with the audience etc.

The second concert, mixed Schubert songs I think, was more a mixed bag if I remember rightly, we all agreed about that, but I couldn't say why now, it was a long time ago. But you know,it was just a concert.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on May 27, 2019, 10:01:48 PM
Anyone explored the G minor piano trio? Is there an exceptionally perceptive, imaginative, passionate performance of it on record? Is it any good as music? I was struck by this comment here

https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showpdf.php?id=14638

Quote
Roesner, for example,
sees the Piano Trio in g minor (1852) as one of the works
that “embody the culmination of the composer’s ever innovative approach to large-scale musical form” (p. 123).
Compare that to an assessment in a collection of essays
on Schumann published in 1972, in which the Piano Trio
in g minor “belongs to the period of Schumann’s increasing mental instability and shows a sad decline from the
standard of the D minor Trio.”[2]

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on May 27, 2019, 10:53:26 PM
The performance by Faust, Queyras and Melnikov is very good and imaginative despite having a strong sense of modern instrument technique on period instruments. I personally like the music, as did Clara Schumann (considering the third movement one of her husband's best achievements).
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on May 28, 2019, 12:32:15 AM
Thanks, I especially appreciated Queyras's cello. I thought the second movement is one of those things that's never forgotten once heard, the third even more so.

The fourth movement, that's where I though I could sense irrationalty, potentially it could be really wonderful.

Amazing music really. Nice recording,  good sound.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on May 28, 2019, 02:55:23 AM
I love that last movement but can't think of a recording that does it justice. It's definitely on the edge of irrationality in a way Schumann hadn't attempted since 1841 out of fear of madness (finales of the piano quintet, A major string quartet, etc)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on May 28, 2019, 07:18:45 AM
This may be worth trying for a bit of  kraftig on the edge, I've just dipped in so I could be wrong.

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0004/227/MI0004227298.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

maybe this too

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71hEbXSA52L._SX355_.jpg)

and possibly even this

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/320/MI0003320068.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on June 07, 2019, 09:26:44 PM
Anyone know how the sound of the three quartets is on this transfer?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/616osrY6vCL.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jo498 on June 07, 2019, 10:54:56 PM
I never really understood why the first Schumann trio seems to dominate the others so clearly. The 3rd one might suffer from the prejudice against "late" Schumann. I have around 3 recordings (Florestan, Jean Paul, Altenberg) but cannot be more specific with recommendations.

I have been eyeing the Juilliard box for years but never got it because I had the quartets in private LP transfers and the other pieces have been available for a long time on CD. The quartets are very good (whereas the quintet and quartet seem somewhat dominated by the characters of the respective pianists) and AFAIR the sound is the typical dry and close 70s Juilliard/CBS sound. Not sure how much a CD transfer would change that, if at all.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2019, 12:54:12 AM
Well I’ve got something which I’ve tagged as the Juilliard playing the Schumann, with these timings for the first, 41/1

Movement 1 9,29
Movement 2 4,09
Movement 3 6,51
Movement 4 6,33

Is that the same as the old LPs on that Japanese transfer?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Herman on June 08, 2019, 07:14:11 AM
Anyone explored the G minor piano trio? Is there an exceptionally perceptive, imaginative, passionate performance of it on record? Is it any good as music?

I've always liked the G minor. Every movement has much to offer, and particularly the last mvt is uniquely felicitous, with the lovely material for the cello.

There's is the old, and still prevalent idea that Schumann was spent, and going nuts, after his youthful works. I know I would be going crazy with such a large family. Schumann wrote a terrific amount of music (and a lot of journalism as well), so if not everything is top notch it would only be natural, but in my view the op 110 Trio belongs to the very good works.

In addition to the recordings mentioned there's a very good recording in the Eric LeSage series on Alpha, with Nicolitch on violin and Christophe Coin on cello.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Herman on June 08, 2019, 07:33:54 AM
I've always liked the G minor. Every movement has much to offer, and particularly the last mvt is uniquely felicitous, with the lovely material for the cello.

Having just listened to the G minor I was again reminded that the other super fun thing about the last movement is it is a Polonaise, and it is very hard not to picture a whole gang of these 1845 men and women tripping couple by couple down the floor  -  at least in Schumann's mind.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2019, 08:22:03 AM
Having just listened to the G minor I was again reminded that the other super fun thing about the last movement is it is a Polonaise, and it is very hard not to picture a whole gang of these 1845 men and women tripping couple by couple down the floor  -  at least in Schumann's mind.

Yes like some of those waltzes in Papillons.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Herman on June 08, 2019, 12:22:43 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUZ4S28FCgk

G minor trio live by Inon Barnatan, piano
Julian Rachlin, viool
Torleif Thedéen, cello
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2019, 08:46:48 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUZ4S28FCgk

G minor trio live by Inon Barnatan, piano
Julian Rachlin, viool
Torleif Thedéen, cello
Cheers Herman, I enjoyed that over breakfast, I appreciate the lightness in that first movement very much.

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2019, 01:03:27 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/atbnpRtvNpWRnrTeOdtIab5ICJE=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-12562457-1537660951-4324.jpeg.jpg)

I’ve been enjoying the op 41/2 here. I don’t know where I got the transfer from, but it’s not bad at all. Extraordinary second movement, as bold as Haydn and late Beethoven. I think new transfers are going to be released this month in fact. If anyone wants mine they can PM me.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 02, 2019, 05:38:07 PM
Schuman is one of those composers 'graciously academic'. Some superb chamber music, first-rate literary wealth, but rather weak piano/orchestral pieces overall? I'm not sure, but I'm exploring. I hope don't hurt any sensibilities. Among the symphonies, I would save the 2 and 4. 1 and 3 do few for me. Chamber music... the superbly crafted and heartfelt Piano Quartet (heard in live!), rather clever music! And poetic, of course, but a bit insipid, maybe (?). Insipid by its That is like a general concept of mine, but yours are equally respected as expected!

What do you think? But threat yourself each other as you would like threat with, no offense is intended! I don't know his lieder or songs, but are a bit boring for my taste (again, no offense is intended!!!). What do you think, yeah, don't be an asslicker nor a foolish hooligan.

OK, continue...
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on August 02, 2019, 06:26:30 PM
You should try the songs. That's actually the bit of Schumann that really made me sit up and notice. I think his major song cycles are amongst the best by any composer.

As far as piano pieces go I've always had a fondness for the op.17 Fantasy. Things like Carnaval are also good but they really take a bit of getting used to the deliberately fragmentary nature of Schumann's approach (and need a pianist who can hold it all together).
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: kyjo on August 02, 2019, 07:03:12 PM
Schuman is one of those composers 'graciously academic'. Some superb chamber music, first-rate literary wealth, but rather weak piano/orchestral pieces overall? I'm not sure, but I'm exploring. I hope don't hurt any sensibilities. Among the symphonies, I would save the 2 and 4. 1 and 3 do few for me. Chamber music... the superbly crafted and heartfelt Piano Quartet (heard in live!), rather clever music! And poetic, of course, but a bit insipid, maybe (?). Insipid by its That is like a general concept of mine, but yours are equally respected as expected!

What do you think? But threat yourself each other as you would like threat with, no offense is intended! I don't know his lieder or songs, but are a bit boring for my taste (again, no offense is intended!!!). What do you think, yeah, don't be an asslicker nor a foolish hooligan.

OK, continue...

Yeah, Schumann's chamber music is definitely my favorite part of his output. The Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet are absolutely first-rate, brilliant works with intensely moving slow movements. The 1st and 3rd piano trios are very good as well, and the string quartets are more uneven but have some imaginative moments (I like the 3rd the best). Oh, and the Five Pieces in Folk Style for cello and piano are brilliant, characterful works (the second movement is gorgeous in its lullaby-like simplicity). You must hear these in the magisterial recording by Steven Isserlis and Felicity Lott.

As far as his orchestral output goes, I enjoy his symphonies (like you, especially the 2nd and 4th) but wouldn't take them to a desert island with me. I'm not a great fan of the Piano Concerto aside from the charming central movement. Ditto the Violin Concerto. The Cello Concerto has grown on me though I've always thought the orchestral writing to be rather dull. But, I really do like his other two concertante works for piano, the Introduction and Allegro appassionato, op. 92 and the Concert Allegro with Introduction, op. 134. Two fiery and poetic works for sure.

I've had trouble getting into his celebrated solo piano music, save for the epic C major Fantasy, the gorgeous Romance in F-sharp, op. 28/2, and the dramatic Aufschwung from the Fantaisiestucke, op. 12. Much of the rest of it that I've tried has bored me, but I don't know the sonatas well at all. I don't know much of his lieder, save for the compelling Ich grolle nicht from Dichterliebe (what a great chord progression it has!). I also know the Requiem, which has a most beautiful opening and very good next few movements, but rather trails off in inspiration as the piece progresses IMO.

Just my two cents! I usually do not consider Schumann among my favorite composers but he undoubtedly wrote some treasurable music.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jo498 on August 02, 2019, 11:35:20 PM
The piano music (and the lieder) is usually considered the strongest part of Schumann and the earlier pieces are rather the opposite of "academic". Schumann became more academic later on and overall his chamber and orchestral is far more "academic" than the piano music. Although he is one of the first and very few composers who tried to transfer improvisatory short pieces (or sets of such pieces) in chamber music, more of his chamber music is more conventional. Some of the later piano music is also more academic with pseudo-Bachian fughettes, "canonic studies" etc.
This does not mean that his more conventional music is not often original in other ways or is weaker than the (early) piano music.

(The works that are probably least known and hardest to appreciate are the choral works that in my ears mix great moments with romantic soppiness and often bizarre libretti. Nevertheless, it is also a fairly substantial body of work and there is also one opera.)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 03, 2019, 11:31:30 AM
Yeah, Schumann's chamber music is definitely my favorite part of his output. The Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet are absolutely first-rate, brilliant works with intensely moving slow movements. The 1st and 3rd piano trios are very good as well, and the string quartets are more uneven but have some imaginative moments (I like the 3rd the best). Oh, and the Five Pieces in Folk Style for cello and piano are brilliant, characterful works (the second movement is gorgeous in its lullaby-like simplicity). You must hear these in the magisterial recording by Steven Isserlis and Felicity Lott.

As far as his orchestral output goes, I enjoy his symphonies (like you, especially the 2nd and 4th) but wouldn't take them to a desert island with me. I'm not a great fan of the Piano Concerto aside from the charming central movement. Ditto the Violin Concerto. The Cello Concerto has grown on me though I've always thought the orchestral writing to be rather dull. But, I really do like his other two concertante works for piano, the Introduction and Allegro appassionato, op. 92 and the Concert Allegro with Introduction, op. 134. Two fiery and poetic works for sure.

I've had trouble getting into his celebrated solo piano music, save for the epic C major Fantasy, the gorgeous Romance in F-sharp, op. 28/2, and the dramatic Aufschwung from the Fantaisiestucke, op. 12. Much of the rest of it that I've tried has bored me, but I don't know the sonatas well at all. I don't know much of his lieder, save for the compelling Ich grolle nicht from Dichterliebe (what a great chord progression it has!). I also know the Requiem, which has a most beautiful opening and very good next few movements, but rather trails off in inspiration as the piece progresses IMO.

Just my two cents! I usually do not consider Schumann among my favorite composers but he undoubtedly wrote some treasurable music.

Interesting impressions, Kyle. I share many of your views about Schumann. He's not in my first lines of preference either, many of his works haven't clicked on me yet. They're not properly bad, but they do fail to engage me. Nice you mentioned the rarely played works Opp. 92 and 134, two more interesting concertante pieces than his Piano Concerto, which I think it's somewhat overrated. The chamber works other than the Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet seem slightly tasteless for me, albeit I'm not gonna give up. I do remember, e.g. the Three Romanzas for oboe and piano Op. 94 being rather beautiful. The lieder are virtually unknown for my ears, so I can't mention anything about it. The only choral work I've ever heard by him is Die Paradies und die Peri, but it was a frustrating disappointment. Oh, and the piano sonatas are excellent. I almost forget them, I really like them.


The piano music (and the lieder) is usually considered the strongest part of Schumann and the earlier pieces are rather the opposite of "academic". Schumann became more academic later on and overall his chamber and orchestral is far more "academic" than the piano music. Although he is one of the first and very few composers who tried to transfer improvisatory short pieces (or sets of such pieces) in chamber music, more of his chamber music is more conventional. Some of the later piano music is also more academic with pseudo-Bachian fughettes, "canonic studies" etc.
This does not mean that his more conventional music is not often original in other ways or is weaker than the (early) piano music.

(The works that are probably least known and hardest to appreciate are the choral works that in my ears mix great moments with romantic soppiness and often bizarre libretti. Nevertheless, it is also a fairly substantial body of work and there is also one opera.)

Yes, definitely is the piano output one of his high points. I should explore that part of his music. Kreisleriana and the Symphonic Studies, as far as I remember, delighted me.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: kyjo on August 03, 2019, 07:18:01 PM
Interesting impressions, Kyle. I share many of your views about Schumann. He's not in my first lines of preference either, many of his works haven't clicked on me yet. They're not properly bad, but they do fail to engage me. Nice you mentioned the rarely played works Opp. 92 and 134, two more interesting concertante pieces than his Piano Concerto, which I think it's somewhat overrated. The chamber works other than the Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet seem slightly tasteless for me, albeit I'm not gonna give up. I do remember, e.g. the Three Romanzas for oboe and piano Op. 94 being rather beautiful. The lieder are virtually unknown for my ears, so I can't mention anything about it. The only choral work I've ever heard by him is Die Paradies und die Peri, but it was a frustrating disappointment. Oh, and the piano sonatas are excellent. I almost forget them, I really like them.

As far Schumann's other chamber music besides the Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet goes, I'd highly recommend this fantastic set of the piano trios if you don't know it already:



Thanks for mentioning the piano sonatas! I was just listening to No. 1 and enjoyed it quite a bit. It excited me more than some other solo piano works of his I had tried recently, such as Davidsbündlertänze and Waldszenen. Then again, I tend to not be the biggest fan of "miniatures" and prefer larger-scale works.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 05, 2019, 01:23:44 PM
As far Schumann's other chamber music besides the Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet goes, I'd highly recommend this fantastic set of the piano trios if you don't know it already:



Thanks for mentioning the piano sonatas! I was just listening to No. 1 and enjoyed it quite a bit. It excited me more than some other solo piano works of his I had tried recently, such as Davidsbündlertänze and Waldszenen. Then again, I tend to not be the biggest fan of "miniatures" and prefer larger-scale works.

Thanks for the suggestion. I do have that set. In fact, last weekend I played the Piano Trio No. 1. It bettered a little from the last time.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: vers la flamme on August 05, 2019, 04:06:19 PM
I have the Florestan Trio disc with Schumann's piano trios (two of them anyway, not quite sure how many he wrote) and I enjoy it. But I would have to say that my favorites of his chamber music are his A major string quartet and the E-flat major piano quintet.

Anyway, for me as many others, the piano music is the peak of Schumann's worth to me. It's all incredibly unique, and so much of it is so beautiful.

I picked up this box set for extremely cheap and have been listening to it sporadically as of late. I think there is some worthy stuff here, plenty of legendary pianists have been included.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51d8Dn50gDL._SY355_.jpg)

Any opinions on this set?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Jo498 on August 05, 2019, 10:56:02 PM
I have the Florestan Trio disc with Schumann's piano trios (two of them anyway, not quite sure how many he wrote) and I enjoy it.
The Florestan are very good (they have two discs with all of them). There are 3 standard trios and a 4th one op.88 that is called Fantasiestücke. As another filler sometimes one finds the studies for pedal piano (gems that show the reception of Bach) in an arrangement for trio by Kirchner.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: vers la flamme on November 21, 2019, 04:28:18 PM
The Florestan are very good (they have two discs with all of them). There are 3 standard trios and a 4th one op.88 that is called Fantasiestücke. As another filler sometimes one finds the studies for pedal piano (gems that show the reception of Bach) in an arrangement for trio by Kirchner.

I still need to get my hands on the other Florestan Schumann disc – unless someone wants to point out a worthy alternative to me  ;D ... meanwhile I've discovered another phenomenal disc of great Schumann chamber music...: Isabelle Faust and Silke Avenhaus playing Schumann's three violin sonatas for CPO. Unfortunately, I cannot find a halfway decent image online, but here is an Amazon link for anyone curious who might not have it....:



My favorites are the D minor and the posthumous A minor, but all three are beautiful, sensuous, wistful and thought provoking works of art, mature offerings from a master composer. Sometimes I forget how much I love Schumann's music, but when I am receptive to it, it is some of the greatest music to ever grace my ears.

I also recently got my hands on "Das Paradies und die Peri", with Simon Rattle conducting the LSO on the LSO Live label, but I've yet to hear it all. I ought to change that soon.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Que on November 22, 2019, 11:11:49 AM
Here you go!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/914aimAXTeL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: vers la flamme on November 23, 2019, 08:22:55 AM
Here you go!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/914aimAXTeL._SS400_.jpg)
Awesome, thanks a lot. I understand that some here seem to dislike nudity in album artwork, but I think this is a beautiful cover that suits the music.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: vers la flamme on November 23, 2019, 05:17:59 PM
I would like to know what are some good recordings of Schumann's op.110 out there. I know the Florestan Trio have recorded it and I very much like their other Schumann disc, but what else is out there? I am really developing a taste for Schumann's late chamber music.

Maybe Mandryka can help me with this, I seem to remember him liking this work.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 01:22:36 AM
Has anyone besides The Leipzig Quartet recorded the first version of any op 41s?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on March 01, 2020, 02:29:31 AM
I think the Eroica Quartet is also the first version, but not 100% sure.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 04:01:26 AM
I can't make out whether they just keep some of the original ideas of the second quartet or preserve the whole original version

Quote
The Autograph Manuscript of Schumann's Quartets Schumann's autograph manuscript of his three String Quartets, now in the Heinrich Heine Institute in Dusseldorf, contains the usual sort of corrections and changes one might expect in a composer's working manuscript. There were also changes made between the manuscript stage and the first edition stage — presumably with the composer's approval. All of these changes might be said to fall into three categories: (1) changes made during the process of composing; (2) changes of a more practical sort made as a result of hearing the work rehearsed, perhaps at the suggestion of the performers; and (3) compositional changes which represent the retraction or toning-down of radical ideas, perhaps at the suggestion of others (often of his wife, Clara). Being a working manuscript, rather than one copied out after the completion of the compositional process, it is full of examples of the first type of change. There is also much evidence of the second category. This is not surprising, given Schumann's close collaboration with the violinist Ferdinand David. Perhaps the most arresting change of this type — possibly made at David's suggestion — was to erase the 'con sordino' indication at the opening of the First Quartet. These changes — the composer's own 'improvements' — are interesting only in the sense that they show the compositional process in action. But in the third category, Schumann seems to have been particularly vulnerable to the suggestion that some his original ideas were too radical. (Towards the end of his life, such works as the Violin Concerto were censored or even destroyed by Clara, who misread their compositional originality as signs of mental illness.)

 Normally, a composer's final version or 'Fassung letzter Hand' is considered to have ultimate authority. But perhaps in Schumann's case, it is also worth entertaining his earlier thoughts, if we can. It is usually impossible to re-establish the original intention, especially where the watering-down suggestion may have been made part-way through the compositional process. However the Quartets throw up a particularly interesting example of this third kind of change The Second Quartet in its published form opens with a long sweeping melody in 3/4 time [Track 7], although this was initially preceded by a bold and arresting four-bar gesture marked stringendo' [Track 2]. (Example 1 shows it crossed out in manuscript stage.) This idea was then dropped, but not entirely thrown out. Extraordinarily, the deleted passage was transferred verbatim into the First Quartet: it is inserted in squashed writing as bars 30-33 after the first-movement Introduzione [Track 1], just before the start of the exposition [Allegro, Track 3], also in F major (Example 2). Perhaps Schumann felt — or was convinced — that it was too bizarre at the opening of the Second Quartet: it certainly changes the mood of its first movement. Whether this change was Schumann's own `improvement', or one inspired by fear of being too radical, we cannot know. On this recording we have allowed listeners the chance to decide for themselves.

DAVID WATKIN /EROICA QUARTET
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on March 01, 2020, 04:15:56 AM
I can't make out whether they just keep some of the original ideas of the second quartet or preserve the whole original version

That reads very much as if they've simply created track programming in such a way that you can insert the idea now found in the 1st quartet back into the 2nd quartet, by programming track 2 before track 7.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 05:15:29 AM
That reads very much as if they've simply created track programming in such a way that you can insert the idea now found in the 1st quartet back into the 2nd quartet, by programming track 2 before track 7.

Thanks, I just couldn’t make sense of it. It certainly doesn’t sound as thrilling as Leipzig in Op 43 / iii, or rather, it didn’t this morning, though that could be other things than the version used obviously.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: vers la flamme on March 01, 2020, 06:20:43 AM
So what changed between the original op.41 quartets and the revision? I understand they became shorter. Mandryka, I take it you prefer the originals—why?

I have been listening to the Zehetmair Quartett recordings of op.41/1 and op.41/2. Phenomenal performances both. (Surely the revisions.)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 07:00:54 AM
So what changed between the original op.41 quartets and the revision? I understand they became shorter. Mandryka, I take it you prefer the originals—why?

I have been listening to the Zehetmair Quartett recordings of op.41/1 and op.41/2. Phenomenal performances both. (Surely the revisions.)

All I can say is this. The Leipzig op 41/iii seems to me to have an impetuous, turbulent quality which I don’t recall in other versions, though whether this is the performance, the score or just my mood, I don’t know. It is crazier!

Unfortunately I didn’t keep the Leipzig Quartet booklet when I ripped the CDs so I don’t know what they say about the version in the score.

The MDG recording is still in print, but I can let you have concert performances from the Leipzigs which a couple of Schumann quartets if you want, I’m not sure it’s as impressive as the studio recording though.

I too remember Zehetmair was fun in Schumann, though it’s years since I last heard it.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: vers la flamme on June 09, 2020, 02:59:41 AM
Happy belated to the master.

(https://medicitv-a.imgix.net/artist/robert-schumann_KfTuTxf.jpg)

Anyone listening to his music today (or yesterday)...? For me it's been the Faschingschwank aus Wien, Piano Trio No.1, Davidsbündlertänze, Symphony No.2, & a couple of other things... enjoying everything.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Florestan on June 09, 2020, 03:09:05 AM
Happy belated to the master.

(https://medicitv-a.imgix.net/artist/robert-schumann_KfTuTxf.jpg)

Anyone listening to his music today (or yesterday)...? For me it's been the Faschingschwank aus Wien, Piano Trio No.1, Davidsbündlertänze, Symphony No.2, & a couple of other things... enjoying everything.

Today on radio Kinderszenen with Martha Argerich; last week also on radio Etudes Symphoniques with Ivo Pogorelich.

I too enjoy everything by Schumann, he's in my top 10.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: vers la flamme on June 09, 2020, 02:59:34 PM
Today on radio Kinderszenen with Martha Argerich; last week also on radio Etudes Symphoniques with Ivo Pogorelich.

I too enjoy everything by Schumann, he's in my top 10.

Nice. Both he and your current avatar Franz Schubert are in my top 5, I think.

Now playing the D minor Violin Sonata. A great work...
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on June 09, 2020, 10:24:21 PM
(https://e-cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/9e9f599907d1175e2ccd3f0399e22d9a/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

There are many great recordings of the Fantasy in C but I've never heard pianism to equal this one. Possibly the best recording of them all?? (Even with the occasional flubbed note.) Listen to it and tell me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2020, 10:40:45 PM

There are many great recordings of the Fantasy in C but I've never heard pianism to equal this one. Possibly the best recording of them all?? (Even with the occasional flubbed note.) Listen to it and tell me if I'm wrong.

You’re wrong.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on June 09, 2020, 10:46:53 PM
My mom (who was listening along with me) thinks so too. Oh well. I'm very impressed with his control of the long line and the way he brings to the fore and empathises with the obsessive rhythmic and phrase patterns that dominate the music, so that it seems genuinely on the edge of madness. But I suppose there's a small chance it may not be the best Schumann Fantasy of all time, strictly speaking.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2020, 10:49:20 PM
My mom (who was listening along with me) thinks so too. Oh well. I'm very impressed with his control of the long line and the way he brings to the fore and empathises with the obsessive rhythmic and phrase patterns that dominate the music, so that it seems genuinely on the edge of madness. But I suppose there's a small chance it may not be the best Schumann Fantasy of all time, strictly speaking.

In my experience of moms, they’re always wrong.


Quote
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.   
    They may not mean to, but they do.   
They fill you with the faults they had
    And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
    By fools in old-style hats and coats,   
Who half the time were soppy-stern
    And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
    It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
    And don’t have any kids yourself.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on June 10, 2020, 12:37:31 AM
In my experience of moms, they’re always wrong.
My mom's opinion was that I should learn to play the Schumann Fantasy myself (definitely wrong) but among existing versions she expressed a preference for Vladimir Ashkenazy 1965 (only slightly wrong).
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on June 10, 2020, 02:34:50 AM
I'm buggered if I can find a recording of the "Fest-Overture", or Rheinweinlied Overture (op.123) to listen to online.

You'd think that a composer as prominent as Schumann wouldn't have such gaps. There appears to be at least one recording in existence, maybe 2, but I can't find more than a brief sample online.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Papy Oli on June 10, 2020, 05:04:14 AM
I assume these might be the 2 you are referring to ?

https://www.allmusic.com/album/schumann-orchestral-works-mw0001831721 (https://www.allmusic.com/album/schumann-orchestral-works-mw0001831721)
https://www.allmusic.com/album/schumann-piano-concerto-in-am-op54-mass-in-cm-op147-mw0001387022 (https://www.allmusic.com/album/schumann-piano-concerto-in-am-op54-mass-in-cm-op147-mw0001387022)

Rummaged through Qobuz by work, opus number, performers and title variations for those 2 but no luck.

Nothing on hyperion. Nothing on JPC either. Presto doesn't even list that work in the full list under R. Schumann.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on June 10, 2020, 01:30:18 PM
Yes, Allmusic is the only place I found something I think.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: amw on June 10, 2020, 05:42:18 PM
It's out of print so won't be available to hear anywhere, but I have a copy of the Maderna Piano Concerto/Mass/Rheinweinlied-Overture CD—let me know if you want it and I'll PM you. Sound quality is pretty good by Arkadia standards.

I assume the rarity of available recordings is a result of having to put together a choir and orchestra for a 6 1/2 minute piece, with the choir only singing for the last 1 1/2 minutes of that. But I'm surprised Sawallisch or someone else didn't bother to sight read through it as a disc filler while recording the Mass, Requiem, Szenen aus Goethes Faust etc.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on June 10, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Thanks for the offer. To be honest I can do without, I'm just doing one of my gradual chronological explorations of a composer and was damn surprised that something with an opus number was missing.

I think you're right as to the cause of the rarity. It's something that has really struck me with composers in general - choral recordings are not that common in general, but especially when it's choir with orchestra. And this is despite there being a heck of a lot of repertoire available (especially from the 19th century, when choral singing was clearly a lot more popular than it is now). People come together for certain things like Beethoven's 9th and Handel's Messiah but there's not much evidence of anyone saying "hey, we could do this a lot more often and there's plenty of music out there to perform".
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on June 28, 2020, 07:45:26 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/IX3qw2MWrD0

This came up on rmcr, I thought it would be the sort of thing amw would appreciate. He's put a lot of stuff on youtube to explain his extraordinary interpretation -- I've not heard them yet.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scion7 on August 24, 2020, 01:03:42 AM

Chandos' recording from 2000 by Schonwandt & the Danish National Radio Symphony and Choir, with Hanne Fischeras the princess (mezzo-soprano) --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feU_N5nLG8A

(https://i.postimg.cc/76xRVdYd/Title.jpg)

Published posthumously by Clara as Op.140, no-one would ever consider this superior to Des Sängers Fluch, but Vom Pagen und der Königstochter, 4 ballads for Soloists, Chorus & Orchestra has its moments. Schumann took the text from Emanuel Geibel's 'The Page and the King's Daughter' - modified it slightly here and there as required for his music - and spent some ten months composing it, possibly because he was already showing signs of the mental illness brought about almost certainly by the final stages of syphilis, and the 'immediate' setting to music he had spoken of to his friend Richard Pohl - who suggested the Geibel's poem - may have been delayed by fits of auditory hallucinations.

The tale is somewhat macabre, with murder and myth (water-creatures and so forth), and a harp made by a merman of the murdered boy's bones used in the final part to disrupt his princess's wedding (his former love) and to drive his murderer (the king) to madness . . .

IV. The rooms sparkle in the king's palace

Chorus
The rooms sparkle in the king's palace,
Come hither with flutes and violins;
The king's beautiful daughter
Is dancing her wedding dance in the palace.

Alto Solo
She is wearing the wreath of myrtles in her hair,
But she goes about mute and constrained;
Upon her breast she wears a blooming rose,
But her cheeks, they are so pale.

She is dancing with a foreign prince,
He wears royal purple and silk;
But more handsome, a thousand times more handsome was
The lad in page's attire.

Chorus
Hail! Hail to the bride! The bride! The noble bride!
Come hither with flutes and violins!

At the golden table twelve maidens stand
To serve the sparkling wine;
Twelve pages circle around the bridal pair
With flaming torches and wreaths.

Merman (from the distrance)
Ha, be still! Fine palace beside the sea,
Listen to the merman's harping!

Chorus
The torches flicker out, the violins go mute --

King
Tell me, what is the meaning of this silence?

Musician
Lord King, do not enflame in rage,
We cannot blow [our horns] or bow [our violins];
The merman is playing the harp before your palace,
We must give way to the merman.

Chorus
Hark!  How it wafts up from the sea!
Oh sweet, sorrowful reverberation!
It creeps so gently through the night
Up into the halls [of the castle].

It creeps so gently into the ear of the bride;
It seems to her, as if from the depths,
As if from the depths with all-encompassing power
Her dearest lover were calling her.

Princess
The power of the song makes my poor heart
Dissolve in death!

And though my knight is wonderfully resplendent
In his shining finery,
Ah, more handsome, a thousand times more handsome was
The lad in page's attire.

Chorus
It creeps so gently through the twilit night
Into the festive halls [of the castle].
From out of [the princess's] curls the myrtle wreath
Falls wilted at her feet.

Alto solo
The king shudders in his very marrow,
He flees in horror from the sound;
The foreign prince hastens
To his horses in the stable.

Chorus
In the festive hall lies the pale bride,
Her heart has burst;
The morning light gloomily illumines the windows,
The echoes of the merman's harp have faded away.

 



Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Biffo on August 24, 2020, 01:21:07 AM
Chandos' recording from 2000 by Schonwandt & the Danish National Radio Symphony and Choir, with Hanne Fischeras the princess (mezzo-soprano) --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feU_N5nLG8A

(https://i.postimg.cc/76xRVdYd/Title.jpg)

Published posthumously by Clara as Op.140, no-one would ever consider this superior to Des Sängers Fluch, but Vom Pagen und der Königstochter, 4 ballads for Soloists, Chorus & Orchestra has its moments. Schumann took the text from Emanuel Geibel's 'The Page and the King's Daughter' - modified it slightly here and there as required for his music - and spent some ten months composing it, possibly because he was already showing signs of the mental illness brought about almost certainly by the final stages of syphilis, and the 'immediate' setting to music he had spoken of to his friend Richard Pohl - who suggested the Geibel's poem - may have been delayed by fits of auditory hallucinations.

The tale is somewhat macabre, with murder and myth (water-creatures and so forth), and a harp made by a merman of the murdered boy's bones used in the final part to disrupt his princess's wedding (his former love) and to drive his murderer (the king) to madness . . .

IV. The rooms sparkle in the king's palace

Chorus
The rooms sparkle in the king's palace,
Come hither with flutes and violins;
The king's beautiful daughter
Is dancing her wedding dance in the palace.

Alto Solo
She is wearing the wreath of myrtles in her hair,
But she goes about mute and constrained;
Upon her breast she wears a blooming rose,
But her cheeks, they are so pale.

She is dancing with a foreign prince,
He wears royal purple and silk;
But more handsome, a thousand times more handsome was
The lad in page's attire.

Chorus
Hail! Hail to the bride! The bride! The noble bride!
Come hither with flutes and violins!

At the golden table twelve maidens stand
To serve the sparkling wine;
Twelve pages circle around the bridal pair
With flaming torches and wreaths.

Merman (from the distrance)
Ha, be still! Fine palace beside the sea,
Listen to the merman's harping!

Chorus
The torches flicker out, the violins go mute --

King
Tell me, what is the meaning of this silence?

Musician
Lord King, do not enflame in rage,
We cannot blow [our horns] or bow [our violins];
The merman is playing the harp before your palace,
We must give way to the merman.

Chorus
Hark!  How it wafts up from the sea!
Oh sweet, sorrowful reverberation!
It creeps so gently through the night
Up into the halls [of the castle].

It creeps so gently into the ear of the bride;
It seems to her, as if from the depths,
As if from the depths with all-encompassing power
Her dearest lover were calling her.

Princess
The power of the song makes my poor heart
Dissolve in death!

And though my knight is wonderfully resplendent
In his shining finery,
Ah, more handsome, a thousand times more handsome was
The lad in page's attire.

Chorus
It creeps so gently through the twilit night
Into the festive halls [of the castle].
From out of [the princess's] curls the myrtle wreath
Falls wilted at her feet.

Alto solo
The king shudders in his very marrow,
He flees in horror from the sound;
The foreign prince hastens
To his horses in the stable.

Chorus
In the festive hall lies the pale bride,
Her heart has burst;
The morning light gloomily illumines the windows,
The echoes of the merman's harp have faded away.

The scenario shows a striking similarity to Mahler's Das klagende Lied , especially Part II (originally Part III - Wedding Piece) but with a harp made of bones rather than a flute. I wonder if Mahler knew the poem.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Scion7 on August 24, 2020, 02:30:48 AM
Yup, he did.
It's also apparent in Dvorak's "The Golden Spinning Wheel."
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: kyjo on August 24, 2020, 06:32:54 AM
I recently discovered Schumann’s substantial oratorio Das Paradies und die Peri at the urging of a friend who believes it to be his greatest work. Although there are a couple rather dull numbers, I enjoyed it very much overall, particularly the energetic, martial choruses which show Schumann in a rare festive mood. The Gardiner recording is absolutely superb, with a formidable cast of soloists including Barbara Bonney:

Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: vers la flamme on August 24, 2020, 01:35:26 PM
I recently discovered Schumann’s substantial oratorio Das Paradies und die Peri at the urging of a friend who believes it to be his greatest work. Although there are a couple rather dull numbers, I enjoyed it very much overall, particularly the energetic, martial choruses which show Schumann in a rare festive mood. The Gardiner recording is absolutely superb, with a formidable cast of soloists including Barbara Bonney:



I have the Rattle/LSO Live recording but don't like it all that much. I like what I've heard of the Gardiner better, but all in all I have thus far failed to be moved by this work. I might try and trade in for the Gardiner.

I just purchased the other big Schumann oratorio: Faustszenen, the Wit/Naxos recording. Excited to spend some time with the music. I love Schumann but thus far his choral music has not done much for me.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on August 24, 2020, 04:00:38 PM
I recently discovered Schumann’s substantial oratorio Das Paradies und die Peri at the urging of a friend who believes it to be his greatest work. Although there are a couple rather dull numbers, I enjoyed it very much overall, particularly the energetic, martial choruses which show Schumann in a rare festive mood. The Gardiner recording is absolutely superb, with a formidable cast of soloists including Barbara Bonney:



I have the Gardiner, in a box with the symphonies.

I still didn't love the entire thing, but as it is probably the most I've enjoyed a work of this genre (especially the first part) then both Schumann and Gardiner must have been doing a fairly good job!
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Brewski on December 18, 2020, 09:08:45 AM
From last Monday, the Brentano Quartet in Schumann String Quartet in A Major, Op. 41, No. 3 (first half of the program, which continues with Brahms). Not sure I've heard this piece before, and liked it very much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1MzOuVVSVQ

--Bruce
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: hvbias on April 01, 2021, 03:43:35 PM
Dina Ugorskaja's Schumann disc has changed my mind on Gesange der Fruhe and the "Ghost Variations", though Variation 5 is still the least interesting. There is a certain darkness in her interpretations that suits them, overall a really fine disc from her.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Mandryka on April 02, 2021, 01:33:54 AM
Dina Ugorskaja's Schumann disc has changed my mind on Gesange der Fruhe and the "Ghost Variations", though Variation 5 is still the least interesting. There is a certain darkness in her interpretations that suits them, overall a really fine disc from her.

Yes, love it.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: OrchestralNut on April 28, 2021, 06:28:22 AM
Inspired by the recent discussion of Schumann's symphonies, listening to:

Schumann

Symphony No. 1 in B flat major, Op. 38 "Le Printemps"


David Zinman
Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich

Arte Nova Classics

I love the generally brisk tempi taken by Zinman.  A set I have listened to very frequently since acquiring it back in around 2006/2007.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519R33H3N6L._AC_SX342_.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: hvbias on April 28, 2021, 02:29:09 PM
(https://e-cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/9e9f599907d1175e2ccd3f0399e22d9a/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

There are many great recordings of the Fantasy in C but I've never heard pianism to equal this one. Possibly the best recording of them all?? (Even with the occasional flubbed note.) Listen to it and tell me if I'm wrong.

Indeed excellent.

On the topic of Fantasie in C I realize I haven't listened to many new recordings, are there any really exceptional performances recorded from the 90s onward?
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 14, 2021, 03:47:09 PM
Written by a friend of mine:

An Old Look at Schumann’s Organ Works (https://www.thediapason.com/old-look-schumann%E2%80%99s-organ-works)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: milk on August 25, 2021, 02:30:18 AM
Am I the only one who thinks this DOES work? I do think so. I do like the Schumann on here. It's very natural-sounding to my ears:

(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2021/08/18/oujcqc-apoetslove-preview-m3.jpg)
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: milk on August 25, 2021, 02:34:34 AM
Written by a friend of mine:

An Old Look at Schumann’s Organ Works (https://www.thediapason.com/old-look-schumann%E2%80%99s-organ-works)
Looks interesting. Thanks.
Can someone recommend a good recording of Schumann's organ works?
Answering my own question, I think Vernet is good.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: Madiel on August 25, 2021, 03:59:45 AM
Am I the only one who thinks this DOES work? I do think so. I do like the Schumann on here. It's very natural-sounding to my ears:

(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2021/08/18/oujcqc-apoetslove-preview-m3.jpg)

I'd have to know exactly what "this" is, first, but if we're talking an instrumental version of Schumann's songs... I rather like having the poetry.
Title: Re: Schumann's Shoebox
Post by: milk on August 27, 2021, 06:16:53 AM
I'd have to know exactly what "this" is, first, but if we're talking an instrumental version of Schumann's songs... I rather like having the poetry.
Yeah, I like it but I admit I won’t be playing it very often.