I can't believe I'm finding all these Threadless Composers!?!
All I know is that I really took to Wolf's formidable String Quartet of 1884. I put it in the Busoni, Reger, Schoenberg camp of overheated hothouse flowers, totally sucked into it's own world. I first heard the LaSalle, which seem to highlight the disturbed, almost feral forest world, with woody, scratching tone, like a spider bite hallucination. I'm considering the Auryn on CPO (how could that be bad??), though, I wish the Artis on Accord didn't cost $40.
Otherwise, I'm pretty clueless on Wolf. I wonder if any of his songs would convert a lieder infidel? I'm already willing to try some Schoeck. We'll see.
Anyone?
ONE post for Hugo Wolf?!
I have heard (most of) the Spanisches Liederbuch, and only once, but I'm wondering what else is worth hearing.
Above all the Italianisches liederbuch. Also the Eichendorff and Mörike lieder
When I was a kid I heard Schwarzkopf singing Kennst du das land on record, the 1956 Carnegie Hall recital with George Reeves, and I was bowled over by the way she took the line Im dunklen Laub die Gold-Orangen glühn. It was a transformative experience, I kind of never knew music could be like that. I don't say you'll have the same reaction!
Some discussion from a long time ago with me and the (very much missed - hope they're well) mjwal and ccar here
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16147.msg440045.html#msg440045
Also search rmcr for a recent discussion with me and gggg
I don't know them well enough (despite having a comprehensive? almost complete box with Fi-Di, incl. the tone poems) but I usually prefer the other lieder to the Spanish/Italian songbooks. But for whatever reason I never really got into Wolf's huge lieder oeuvre.
In Germany/Austria Wolf used to be held as the 3rd great lieder composer after Schubert and Schumann.
I have never heard his opera (+fragment) and don't remember the tone poem Penthesilea.
I am rather fond of the string quartet, an uneven but extremely ambitious work that seems like a mix of late Beethoven and middle (Lohengrin prelude) Wagner etc.
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 08, 2023, 05:07:51 PMONE post for Hugo Wolf?!
Well, the Lied as a genre isn't exactly the rage on GMG, is it?
QuoteI have heard (most of) the Spanisches Liederbuch, and only once, but I'm wondering what else is worth hearing.
This is my go to recording for the SL:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51dQjlBVCPL.jpg)
Also worth your time:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/514tDlfYpEL._AC_.jpg)(https://i.discogs.com/DzXVp6-sXtegPFJ0XI6oNhJROdPpkf46e2K1vaVznLY/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:510/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEwNjM4/Nzk2LTE1MDE0NDI0/MTUtMzUxNS5qcGVn.jpeg)(https://i.discogs.com/087krgaSArf6JFtx-ShVE6H3vPwBYY4-JxhQ8xLZmf4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:593/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTkyMDI2/NDItMTQ3NjU3ODkw/MS02NDIyLmpwZWc.jpeg)(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d00001e026440f8486385ebe80afe613c)
However (to quote a living classic), however, if you want a fairly extensive and consistently qualitative traversal of his Lieder, this set is hard to beat:
(https://www.warnerclassics.com/sites/default/files/5099968860820.jpg)
For an enthusiastic review and full track listing, click below.
it is possible to shop around and get a fine Wolf collection, but why spend so much more money and time when this box is here, tailor-made for all but the most discriminating and for most readers this can very well be the only Wolf discs they will ever need. (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Sept10/Wolf_Anniversary_6886082.htm)
Over time I found
Wolf's music highly rewarding if taken in small doses (which is actually how Lieder should be taken anyway; no composer of Lieder ever contemplated 25 of them being sung in a row --- even cycles were treated rather flexibly by singers back then). Prolonged exposure may result in aural fatigue and low spirits.
This essay may also be of some interest:
Eric Sams - The Literary Sources of Hugo Wolf's String Quartets (http://www.ericsams.org/index.php/on-music/essays/miscellaneous/121-literary-sources-of-hugo-wolf-s-string-quartets)
Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2023, 02:38:13 AMWell, the Lied as a genre isn't exactly the rage on GMG, is it? [/img]
No, but surely SOME people must like them. You and me like them, at least, or at least you are usually one of the few to answer my Lieder questions ;D
Thank you for the recommendations. I have the DFD/Schwarzkopf/Gerald Moore recording of the Spanish. I want to hear the Italian songs as well as the Eichendorff songs, being very interested in Eichendorff. Maybe I'll look for the Hyperion.
There is a single disc anthology of Mörike lieder on DG with Fi-Di and none other than Sviatoslav Richter playing the piano.
A good and hopefully easily available recording of the quartet (+ fillers, 2 quartet movements) is Auryn on cpo.
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 09, 2023, 03:23:58 AMsurely SOME people must like them. You and me like them, at least, or at least you are usually one of the few to answer my Lieder questions ;D
In my experience, vocal music in general is a sort of Cinderella of classical music forums, people are mostly into (Late Romantic) symphonies and orchestral music --- and the Lied/Art Song genre is the Cinderella of vocal music. ;D
Why this is so I won't venture to speculate, although I have a theory.
Anyway, there is also a very good 6-disc Dieskau / Barenboim DG box which contains the Eichendorff-Lieder. They (the EL, I mean) are quite possibly my favorite of them all.
(https://images.universal-music.de/img/assets/989/98949/4/720/wolf-lieder-0028944751527.jpg)
Vocal music is a major strength of talk classical and autour de la musique classique.
@vers la flamme Try different styles. Things have moved on from FiDi.
Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2023, 04:29:27 AMIn my experience, vocal music in general is a sort of Cinderella of classical music forums, people are mostly into (Late Romantic) symphonies and orchestral music --- and the Lied/Art Song genre is the Cinderella of vocal music.
75% (maybe more) of my listening is of some form of vocal music: lieder, opera, or choral works. For me, vocal music is central to my experience of music, any genre. It is my belief that vocal music was the first manner in which man made music, with the development of instrumental music (aside from drumming) coming much later.
A solo voice singing melody (also monophonic chant sung chorally) will imply harmonies and is sufficient on its own without need for accompaniment - and is often the most pleasing music for me.
Regarding the thread topic, i.e. Hugo Wolf, I agree the DFD box is an excellent collection. Wolf's lieder along with Schubert, Schumann, and Brahms, comprise the four great men of German song. There are others, for sure, but these four, for me, did the most with the form.
I just found this one on youtube, this morning. For me Ziezek is a wonderful Wolf singer -- it's what I've always been looking for. She has another Wolf CD, miscellaneous songs, which I've ordered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kqxxQRhkP4&t=723s&ab_channel=Operazaileoperazaile
Andreas Schmidt seems perfectly able to sing the music, and the piano players seem pretty alert too. A nice little discovery!
Quote from: San Antone on May 09, 2023, 09:16:41 AM75% (maybe more) of my listening is of some form of vocal music: lieder, opera, or choral works.
As of late, this has been my case, too.
QuoteFor me, vocal music is central to my experience of music, any genre. It is my belief that vocal music was the first manner in which man made music, with the development of instrumental music (aside from drumming) coming much later.
I think this is not even a question of belief, but an established fact.
QuoteWolf's lieder along with Schubert, Schumann, and Brahms, comprise the four great men of German song. There are others, for sure, but these four, for me, did the most with the form.
Agreed, with Mendelssohn and Loewe coming a close second.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 09, 2023, 05:17:15 AMVocal music is a major strength of talk classical
You think? There are a few members there who are passionate and knowledgeable about vocal music but many, if not most, of the members profess open (and plainly uninformed, if not downright ignorant) disdain for Italian opera, particularly Bel Canto, and a cultish devotion to Beethoven's symphonic output which they exalt above everything else --- and that was more than enough to put me off TC.
Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2023, 10:51:30 AMYou think? There are a few members there who are passionate and knowledgeable about vocal music but many, if not most, of the members profess open (and plainly uninformed, if not downright ignorant) disdain for Italian opera, particularly Bel Canto, and a cultish devotion to Beethoven's symphonic output which they exalt above everything else --- and that was more than enough to put me off TC.
Not sure how long ago that was Andrei, but I don't see that as being the case presently?
Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 09, 2023, 11:16:03 AMNot sure how long ago that was Andrei, but I don't see that as being the case presently?
Admittedly it was quite a long time ago, Ray. I have never been an active member, just lurking in the corner for some time --- what I saw back then did not entice me to become active, or follow their evolution. It's been years since I haven't checked TC for updates.
I think
@Florestan there are some regulars there who are really knowledgeable and thoughtful about opera and song, though admittedly I've never discussed bel canto with them.
https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/round-2-recondita-armonia-dvorsky-kozub.84877/
https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/webers-oberon.14157/
https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/opera-pictures.64947/
https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/jessye-norman-opinions.42742/
Quote from: Mandryka on May 09, 2023, 11:27:35 AMI think @Florestan there are some regulars there who are really knowledgeable and thoughtful about opera and song, though admittedly I've never discussed bel canto with them.
https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/round-2-recondita-armonia-dvorsky-kozub.84877/
https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/webers-oberon.14157/
https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/opera-pictures.64947/
https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/jessye-norman-opinions.42742/
Thank you,
@Mandryka , I will surely check out those links.
Don't get me wrong, I don't claim that everyone should like Bel Canto (or Lieder / Art Songs, for that matter), that would be the top of folly from me. But to reject and belittle those genres for no other reason that they are not
Eroica or
The Ninth strikes me as the top of intellectual and aesthetical laziness.
But I digress. Back to Wolf.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 09, 2023, 05:17:15 AMVocal music is a major strength of talk classical and autour de la musique classique.
@vers la flamme Try different styles. Things have moved on from FiDi.
Tell me who, man, and I will. I don't know this stuff well enough.
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 09, 2023, 01:56:54 PMTell me who, man, and I will. I don't know this stuff well enough.
Have a look here
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/J325g4IdvV8/m/DAlvljPNAgAJ
The last thing I really enjoyed was the Italian Songbook with Carolyn Sampson,. and Pregardien's Eichendorff songs.
Here's Elasabeth Rethberg
https://open.spotify.com/track/4uGB2HXSsg6opxAd1ESnSi
This is one I hadn't heard for a few years but this afternoon I thought it was very enjoyable and expressive. Just one voice, so it risks getting a bit boring for the length of a CD, but he inhabits the music so well that it was OK for an hour. Karl Engel may be a weak link, but he's perfectly able to play the notes.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0Mjk3NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJoZWlnaHQiOjgwMCwid2l0aG91dEVubGFyZ2VtZW50Ijp0cnVlfSwidG9Gb3JtYXQiOiJqcGVnIiwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjIwMTd9)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41D50M9VV0L._AC_.jpg). (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41NTH7VB90L._AC_.jpg)
Been listening to these two on and off the past 24 hours - first time in a very long time.
The DG has really been cleaned up compared to my old transfer - in a sense it makes it easier to hear but in another sense you kind of lose something - some timbre and of course the sense of the hall.
The DG, an Innsbruck concert, is about 5 years earlier, and for me the earlier the performance the better when it comes to to FiDi, though there's not much in it. He was pushing 50 though even in the earlier concert so neither is in his . . . something . . . can't find the word. Richter was pushing 60 when he gave the Munich recital.
I confess to finding the Orfeo horrid! And to enjoying a bit more at least part of the DG - the parts when he's not barking.
(https://cdn.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/C140401B.jpg)
A younger FiDi generally on good form - it's still recognisably FiDi, every syllable, every attack, every vowel, every consonant is nuanced, studied, refined, coloured. But he's younger, it can be a bit shouty sometimes but on the whole there's less growling and woofing than later. Seems to be taken from a number of concerts - I don't have the details any more. Not my sort of thing at all.
Moore seems OK.
(https://audite.de/image/product/3d/lightbox/95599-edition_fischer_dieskau_i_h_wolf_moerike_lieder.jpg)
https://audite.de/de/product/CD/95599-edition_fischer_dieskau_i_h_wolf_moerike_lieder.html
Eureka. He was 30 max . He still had a nice voice -- slightly Hottery sometimes, not at all like the later stuff. THIS is the FiDi I can enjoy. Straightforward but expressive singing.
I sometimes wonder whether he developed his "distinctive" refined style to compensate for the changes which were happening in his voice from the 1960s. Anyway it was a good call, because he had fans big time.
(https://i.discogs.com/cROsm7D9KiscPH94AW-ItTUMzJ-75734dviwwj3W9DU/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:584/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTExNDc1/NTk0LTE1MTcwMzc4/MjMtMTczNC5qcGVn.jpeg)
Souzay/Ameling Intalienisches Liederbuch, which never made it to CD as far as I know, is now streaming near you.
(https://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/1370536063_5060192780284.jpg)
I think a really satisfying performance of the Geistliche lieder from the Spanisches Liederbuch in the Oxford Complete Lieder series. One really nice thing is they use four singers - soprano, mezzo, tenor, baritone.
The Spanisches Liederbuch has been much less frequently recorded than the Italianisches Liederbuch - which seems a great shame. There are very few modern sounding, I mean intimate and not operatic, performances on record. This is one of them, maybe the only one.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 27, 2024, 12:33:49 PM(https://i.discogs.com/cROsm7D9KiscPH94AW-ItTUMzJ-75734dviwwj3W9DU/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:584/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTExNDc1/NTk0LTE1MTcwMzc4/MjMtMTczNC5qcGVn.jpeg)
Souzay/Ameling Intalienisches Liederbuch, which never made it to CD as far as I know, is now streaming near you.
The great thing about this is the young Elly Ameling - IMO in better voice than the recording she made with Tom Krause - 12 years later. However - Krause is good! It may be a case of mixing the tracks from the two recordings - though even thinking about it sounds a bit nerdy.
(https://i.discogs.com/ziPpE8dwkna_queZZNYQN0ySX3j45BLEacJTASQvikM/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:599/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTg2NTAy/MzUtMTU2NjM1Mjc0/Mi00NTMwLmpwZWc.jpeg)
Wolf wrote the 53 settings of poems by Eduard Mörike in a period of intense and IMO inspired composition in 1888 - they mark his late style, both in the quasi-declamtory vocal writing and the characterful piano part - "piano accompaniment" does not do it justice - this is proper polyphony for voice and keyboard.
There are lots of performances on record of selections, but as far as I know only two which tackle all 53. I think Joan Rogers and Stephan Genz on Hyperion is not very rewarding - Rogers is shrill and sour, Genz is more tolerable, but at the end of the day he's very average, as is Roger Vignoles.
The two volumes on Stone records are live, the singers were all young and fresh at the time, and IMO it is by far the more satisfactory of the two. It's live, the singers were all young and fresh at the time of the recording, and their pianist, Sholto Kynoch, is excellent.
Would that I had a spontaneous understanding of the text! The booklet on the Stone Records site is downloadable and is full of interesting thoughts.
https://stonerecords.co.uk/album/hugo-wolf-the-complete-songs-vol-1-morike-lieder-part-1/
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71QTJhm0wXL._AC_SL1200_.jpg)
I was wrong to say there were just two complete Mörike Lieder recordings - there's also Dietrich Henschel. The previous two are not totally satisfactory for me. The one on Stone Records has a mixed bunch of singers some of which I don't like, and I don't like Joan Rogers at all. This one looks very promising. Henschel is a baritone in the fi-di style.
Time to see whether this is cyclical, Wolf imposed an order on the songs.
On Spotify but not easy for find, search for the pianist, Fritz Schwinghammer.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4ODAwOC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MjYxODE1NDV9)
And a third complete Mörike Liede has come my way - Frauke May's got a fabulous voice for me, flexible, full of life, and text aware. Bernhard Renizkowski is sensitive and tender. Well recorded to boot. I think it may well be top tier Mörike
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71nAhftMi4L._AC_SL1071_.jpg)