Am I dreaming? Is it true?
I know there's a Thread surrounding the wonderful set of 6 Symphonies on DG, but, it appears there is no Official Henze Thread for GMG? Please, please tell me before I...
Anyhow, I just thought, Why not look up Henze?, and, when I saw his Works List, I was amazed at the amount, and concentration, of his career. There were a lot more strictly orchestral works than I had presumed. And the dating in my head had been all wrong.
As far a being a Composer, well, he's always seemed a little aloof to me, like a thrice rarified Boulez, to the point I never knew how to take him. The DG set reveals him to be the heir to the Germanic Symphonic Tradition, which then gets a good once over with the Symphony No.6
His 5 String Quartets (Arditti/Wergo) reveal, also, the utter seriousness of the German Tradition as transformed. Henze doesn't go for Xenakis type, or Penderecki type, sound effects, and he doesn't seem to do anything outside of what one expect from, say, Hartmann's nephew. There is a lot of Germanic angst of the type that I tire of easily, but, since I'm fairly clear of it, Henze suits the role perfectly, and in that context I can joyfully return to this set often!
If I have more Henze, it is in the realm of his trumpet sonata, or minor symphonic excerpts. I used to have the Shakespeare Sonatas for guitar, which I must have liked, along with an interesting disc on the Ars Musici label(?). I've always been interested if Henze had anything else I might be interested in, but I am certainly Opera Shy, and the rest of the DG box is intimidating.
I just know there's someone out there who's itching to chat Henze! What say you?
The little I have heard of Henze didn't particularly entice me, except for Antifone. The Arthaus DVD about him is quite interesting.
Quote from: petrarch on December 03, 2011, 08:17:47 PM
The little I have heard of Henze didn't particularly entice me, except for Antifone. The Arthaus DVD about him is quite interesting.
I imagine an interesting story.
I noticed some concertos in the '60s and early '70s,... I hear interesting things about
Undine,
Tristan,... I'm sure I can find much on YouTube.
You don't have/like the DG set of 6 Symphonies, petrarch?
Quote from: snyprrr on December 03, 2011, 09:20:16 PM
You don't have/like the DG set of 6 Symphonies, petrarch?
Don't have; probably wouldn't like (not
yet, at least).
The Barcarola per grande orchestra is lovely - a vivid piece of hommage to god knows how many previous composers (little snippets of early Schoenberg and Ravel, etc). Very fantastical, and almost begs choreography.
I'm not so familiar with the early symphonies, but I consider the 5th and 7th (especially) very strong, and the 10th is almost a guilty pleasure - it is very similar to the 7th, but smoothed over and as a result less challenging, but more atmospheric.
I've got a few Henze CDs knocking around. The Six Symphonies set is an obvious place to start. The 7th and 9th are also impressive, and both are much weightier than the earlier symphonies. The ballet Undine is gorgeous, the cantata The Raft of the Medusa contains some striking music and his opera Die Bassariden desperately needs a new recording; Dohnanyi's Salzburg performance is in mono sound and the other recording (was it on Koch?) was one of those blink-and-you-miss-it releases. I've also got a CD of two rather boring cantatas that I haven't actually been able to sit through (Cantata della fiaba estrema etc).
Quote from: MDL on December 04, 2011, 03:39:35 AM
...his opera Die Bassariden desperately needs a new recording; Dohnanyi's Salzburg performance is in mono sound and the other recording (was it on Koch?) was one of those blink-and-you-miss-it releases.
Salzburg recording doesn't even have libretto, while the one on Koch was English language version. Definitely new recording would be in order.
And I agree that Undine is utterly gorgeous.
From my rather limited exposure I'd say that Henze's main strength was theatre.
I've got to say that I LOVE that set of 6 Symphonies. 2-5 have a very verdant, moody yet ballet-like post-war feel to them, very 'noble', like a post-war Hindemith, perhaps? I especially like 4-5. I suppose if you'd like a 'mellower' Hartmann, this is it? Is he the Communist Prokofiev?
I'm thinking there are many set of 20th Century Symphonies like this: Searle & Frankel, to name but two obvious ones.
Quote from: Drasko on December 04, 2011, 04:10:58 AM
From my rather limited exposure I'd say that Henze's main strength was theatre.
I think you've got that pretty much nailed on the head. In addition, I think most of his strongest concert works are vocal (for example the gorgeous
Nachtstucke und Arien) or have a theatrical element to them. Even the 7th symphony (which is probably my favourite amongst HWH's "abstract" works) turns out to have a program in its finale (an instrumental Holderlin setting), not to mention a highly dramatic language: Beethoven filtered through Hartmann.
Incidentally, Henze's Benz is wrong, or at least was about a decade ago when, while on vacation in the Lake District, I drove past a Land Rover in Windermere with the license plate HWH1 and two rather distinctive-looking bald older blokes in it. :)
Anyone got an opinion on the song cycle Voices? I believe there are two recordings, but only one (the one originally issued on the wonderful Decca Headline series, now reissued on the Explore label) is complete.
Henze's Piano Concerto No.2 has been a favorite of mine. It sounds brutally hard to play.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uJ5rqx6OL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I also enjoy his Violin Concerti, the String Quartets, The Royal Winter Music: Two Sonatas for Guitar, the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th Symphonies...pretty much all of his instrumental music. (I'm not a huge fan of vocal music in general.)
Quote from: toucan on December 04, 2011, 11:20:55 AM
How about using your own ears?
Er, a tad fucking snotty, no?
My shelves are bulging with CDs that haven't received proper loving care and attention. Before I add any more to the groaning, creaking pile, I'd like to know if they're worth seeking out and spending money on. I actually value the opinions of other GMGers.
And here's a repeat of a post I made, ooh, a whole couple of hours ago, to show that I actually have been using my ears when it comes to Henze's music, Toucan.
I've got a few Henze CDs knocking around. The Six Symphonies set is an obvious place to start. The 7th and 9th are also impressive, and both are much weightier than the earlier symphonies. The ballet Undine is gorgeous, the cantata The Raft of the Medusa contains some striking music and his opera Die Bassariden desperately needs a new recording; Dohnanyi's Salzburg performance is in mono sound and the other recording (was it on Koch?) was one of those blink-and-you-miss-it releases. I've also got a CD of two rather boring cantatas that I haven't actually been able to sit through (Cantata della fiaba estrema etc).
« Last Edit: Today at 01:02:47 PM by MDL »
:o :-[
Quote from: snyprrr on December 04, 2011, 05:03:54 PM
:o :-[
Apologies for lowering the tone. I had a red-mist moment. I was surprised to see my post still up there, to be honest.
Quote from: MDL on December 05, 2011, 03:06:56 AM
Apologies for lowering the tone. I had a red-mist moment. I was surprised to see my post still up there, to be honest.
Haha, me too!! ;) That one word still packs quite a punch, eh? :o ;D Remember the '90s, haha?! Ohhh,... I really need to get out more!
Quote from: toucan on December 04, 2011, 09:27:33 AM
Sorta stretches the word "abstract" to call this piece abstract! Neo-romaniticism, maybe, mixed in with (very) moderated modernism, perhaps?
So, Werner's Rover, then.
Eschenbach (long) before Eschenbach took to looking like Hans Werner Henze
(And also, Henze long before Henze came to look like Hans Werner Henze!)
(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/HenzeEschenbach.jpg)
(Or, Henze... roving for...)
CE looks like the guy from the
X-Files, haha!
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on December 04, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
Henze's Piano Concerto No.2 has been a favorite of mine. It sounds brutally hard to play.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uJ5rqx6OL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I also enjoy his Violin Concerti, the String Quartets, The Royal Winter Music: Two Sonatas for Guitar, the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th Symphonies...pretty much all of his instrumental music. (I'm not a huge fan of vocal music in general.)
That the era of Henze I'd like to check out,... Double Bass Concerto,... he does have some standard guitar rep, amazing how certain Composers are ubiquitous because of one recital piece that everyone plays (Xenakis with
Rebonds, for instance).
Quote from: snyprrr on December 05, 2011, 06:08:55 AM
Haha, me too!! ;) That one word still packs quite a punch, eh? :o ;D Remember the '90s, haha?! Ohhh,... I really need to get out more!
It might be a cultural thing, I have mortally offended god knows how many Americans by using that word.
Is there an alternate recording of Undine? The DG is fine, but the sound is a bit... DG. Even the suites would be interesting.
Also re. Voices - I've just noticed that the CPO recording isn't complete - a shame.
Quote from: toucan on December 04, 2011, 09:27:33 AM
Sorta stretches the word "abstract" to call this piece abstract! Neo-romaniticism, maybe, mixed in with (very) moderated modernism, perhaps?
So, Werner's Rover, then.
Eschenbach (long) before Eschenbach took to looking like Hans Werner Henze
(And also, Henze long before Henze came to look like Hans Werner Henze!)
(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/HenzeEschenbach.jpg)
(Or, Henze... roving for...)
Yea, sorry, but Henze looks like yer typical perv lurking around the park. :( Seriously... starring Dirk Bogarde as Henze, haha :-[ :-[ :-[
Quote from: toucan on December 05, 2011, 01:56:57 PM
Now that you mention it they do look like they are attending Luchino Visconti's funeral. Hard to tell if Maratona di danza would have been appropriate to the occasion.. ;D
I can't think of anything appropriate to say. :-[ ;D
I did more studying (ok, I got to listen to about 10mins. of Symphony 4,... and scroll Amazon),... what about the Decca cd with Violin Cto. No.2? What about the cello concerto
Ode to the Westwind?
Also, Wergo has quite a few new cds, two of which, at least, looked to be devoted to smaller orchestral pieces,... is he like a Prokofiev in this respect?
And these later Symphonies have some competing versions now. Does anyone have the skinny? There are really not many Amazon reviews.
Oh, I did also listen to Abbado's symphonic excepts from
Blvd. and
Bassiards. I like the urbane, post-war modernity,... kind of reminded me of BA Zimmermann of the
Canti de Speranza era: malignant post-war symphonic jazz/modern,... some Ravel in the lushness? Anyhow, I'm beginning to become interested in the years 1945-1951/2/3, such as Honegger's beloved Symphony No.5,... those works that depict the world at that time. I think Henze does that, ... from his perspective anyhow.
Henze's interesting to look into. The discography seems all over the place, with a heavy emphasis on the guitar pieces (they are standards, everybody plays them), and even the Sacher piece for cello, which I then realized I have in the Demenga set. As a Composer, if you can write one of these pieces that suddenly becomes an 'instant classic', I don't know, maybe I'm doting, but in the topsy turvy world of lasting fame, I'd certainly one 'instant classic' to a live of TOTAL obscurity. No?
I have just read of the death of Hans Werner Henze at the age of 86.
There can be no doubt that Henze was one of the most important and significant composers of the second half of the 20th century. I have always been a bit ambivalent about his music. I respect and admire the fact that he turned his back on his native country for many years. This was partly of course because of his perception of homophobia within Germany but also because-unlike so many of his contemporaries-he was not prepared to join the wholesale rejection of the traditions of German music and the grotesque condemnation of that tradition by the Boulez school of avant-gardists. (Boulez himself has, of course, at least as a conductor, now embraced that past ;D).
I have little taste for Henze's own mid-period Marxist-inspired music but the neo-classical early music and the later music which-at times-can almost seem neo-romantic is impressive. Any composer who, like Henze, continues to produce symphonies gets some respect from me ;D I will listen again to the Seventh, Eighth, Ninth and Tenth symphonies-each of which is a formidable symphonic creation, not "easy" but certainly the product of a genuinely fine composer. I am not qualified to speak of Henze as an operatic composer but again this side of his work was of huge importance.
There are very few giants left in contemporary music....and Henze certainly qualified as such :)
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 27, 2012, 06:06:37 AM
I have just read of the death of Hans Werner Henze at the age of 86.
There can be no doubt that Henze was one of the most important and significant composers of the second half of the 20th century. I have always been a bit ambivalent about his music. I respect and admire the fact that he turned his back on his native country for many years. This was partly of course because of his perception of homophobia within Germany but also because-unlike so many of his contemporaries-he was not prepared to join the wholesale rejection of the traditions of German music and the grotesque condemnation of that tradition by the Boulez school of avant-gardists. (Boulez himself has, of course, at least as a conductor, now embraced that past ;D).
I have little taste for Henze's own mid-period Marxist-inspired music but the neo-classical early music and the later music which-at times-can almost seem neo-romantic is impressive. Any composer who, like Henze, continues to produce symphonies gets some respect from me ;D I will listen again to the Seventh, Eighth, Ninth and Tenth symphonies-each of which is a formidable symphonic creation, not "easy" but certainly the product of a genuinely fine composer. I am not qualified to speak of Henze as an operatic composer but again this side of his work was of huge importance.
There are very few giants left in contemporary music....and Henze certainly qualified as such :)
Hmm,... a quiet Saturday afternoon passing by...
QuoteI have just read of the death of Hans Werner Henze at the age of 86.
That was a shock - there was nothing in the papers today. I immediately checked on Wikipedia and that has been very promptly updated; died in Dresden today. The end of an era in German culture - though Rihm in a way has continued that musicus doctus tradition; interesting that the last two operas produced by them - Henze's
Phaedra and Rihm's
Dionysos - were both based on Greek themes, and that the latter of course is thematically linked to Henze's
Bassarids (I have that very good Koch recording by Albrecht). I have seen all three in the opera house and count them among my most exciting experiences in the music theatre. Other exciting Henze moments in the theatre have been have been
Boulevard Solitude, a real humdinger, and
Das verratene Meer, which impressed me a lot and I want to get that Orfeo recording of the revised version in Japanese.
Die englische Katze rather underwhelmed me, perhaps because of the production.
I love his Shelley-based cello concerto; the 2nd piano concerto and
Tristan (conveniently packaged together in that DG Henze edition); the Sacher-led DG music for strings, harp and oboe with the Holligers; the original complete
Voices recording (now on Explore, I have the Decca LPs).
Undine is rather decadently scrumptious, some of the rest of my Henze collection (away in foreign parts) has slipped my memory and
Das Floss der Medusa has hitherto failed to grab my attention. I must confess to having somehow missed hearing any of his first 6 symphonies and will now repair that deficit and catch up on those following No.7 (which I am in 2 minds about, perhaps the EMI Rattle sound which I dislike). I have only heard the 9th in concert, where it was very powerful (but a movement from the available recording failed to impress - a work to be heard live, perhaps).
In Memoriam:
HANS WERNER HENZE: A CATALOGUE OF THE ORCHESTRAL MUSIC
1946: Chamber Concerto for Piano, Flute and Strings: 12 minutes + (Wergo cd)
Violin Concerto No.1: 27 minutes + (Naxos and MDG cds)
1947/63/
91/2005:Symphony No.1 (now renamed "Chamber Concerto 05"): 17 minutes + (DGG cd)
1947: Concertino for Piano, wind orchestra and percussion: 12 minutes + (Wergo cd)
Five Madrigals for small chorus and eleven instruments: 17 minutes
1948/64:"Chorus of the Captured Trojans" for chorus and orchestra: 15 minutes
1948: Concert Aria "The Reproach" for baritone, trumpet, trombone and string orchestra
1949: Ballet "Jack Pudding" (withdrawn)
Symphony No.2: 21 minutes + (DGG cd)
1949/92/98:Ballet-Variations: 16 minutes + (Wergo cd)
1949-50:Symphony No.3: 24 minutes + (DGG and Wergo cds)
1950: Symphonic Variations for Piano and Orchestra (withdrawn)
Piano Concerto No.1: 20 minutes + (Wergo cd)
Ballet "Le Tombeau d'Orphee" (withdrawn)
1950/90:Ballet "Rose Silber": 18 minutes + (Wergo cd)
1951: Ballet "The Sleeping Princess"
"Sinfonische Zwischenspiele" for orchestra: 15 minutes
1952: Ballet Suite "Tancredi" for orchestra: 17 minutes
1952/90:Ballet "The Idiot": 40 minutes
1952/89:"Tanz und Salonmusik" for orchestra (from the Ballet "The Idiot"): 18 minutes
1952: Ballet Pas d'action" (withdrawn)
1953: "Ode to the Westwind" for Cello and Orchestra: 25 minutes + (Arte Nova cd)
1954: Finale: Vivace assai for orchestra: 2 minutes
1955: Symphony No.4: 28 minutes + (DGG and Wergo cds)
"Quattro Poemi" for orchestra: 10 minutes + (Accord and Wergo cds)
1956/64:Three Symphonic Studies for orchestra: 8 minutes + (Wergo cd)
1956: Ballet "Maratona": 50 minutes (and Ballet Suite for two jazz bands and orchestra: 30 minutes)
Five Neapolitan Songs for baritone and chamber orchestra: 15 minutes + (DGG, Gala and Arte Nova cds)
Scenes and Arias(from the Opera "Kong Hirsch") for soprano, tenor, chorus and orchestra: 14 minutes
"Concerto per il Marigny" for Piano and Orchestra + (Accord cd)
1956-57:Ballet "Undine" (and 1958 two Ballet Suites: 26 and 21 minutes): 110 minutes + (Decca cds)
1956/57/67:Divertimento "Jeux des Tritons" for Piano and Orchestra: 15 minutes
1957: "Nocturnes and Arias" for soprano and orchestra: 22 minutes + (Capriccio and Wergo cds)
"Hochzeitsmusik" for wind orchestra: 10 minutes
1957-58:"Sonata per archi": 15 minutes + (DGG cd)
1958: Three Dithyrambs for chamber orchestra: 20 minutes + (Arte Nova cd)
1959: Ballet "The Emperor's Nightingale": 17 minutes
1960: "Antifone" for chamber orchestra: 17 minutes + (Wergo cd)
1962: Symphony No.5: 20 minutes + (DGG and Wergo cds)
Cantata "Novae de infinito laudes" for soprano, contralto, tenor, bass, chorus and small orchestra: 50 minutes + (Orfeo cd)
1963: Fantasia "Los Caprichos" for orchestra: 23 minutes
"Ariosi" for soprano, violin and orchestra: 27 minutes + (Hannsler cd)
"Cantata della fiaba estrema" for soprano, chorus and thirteen instruments: 20 minutes + (Orfeo and DGG cds)
1964: Ballet "Tancredi": 50 minutes
"Zwischenspiele" (from the Opera "Der junge Lord") for orchestra:15 minutes
"Ein Landartz" for baritone and small orchestra: 25 minutes + (Wergo cd)
1965: "In Memoriam: The White Rose" for chamber orchestra: 9 minutes
1966: Double Bass Concerto: 20 minutes
Double Concerto for Oboe, Harp and strings: 30 minutes + (DGG cd)
Fantasia for Strings: 15 minutes + (DGG and Orfeo cds)
1966/2005:"Adagio Fugue and Dance of the Maenads"(Suite from the Opera "The Bassarids"): 25 minutes + (Capriccio cd)
1967: Piano Concerto No.2: 45 minutes + (Brilliant Classics cd)
"Telemanniana" for orchestra: 12 minutes
"Moralities"-three scenic cantatas for soloists, speaker, chorus and small orchestra: 25 minutes + (DGG cd)
1968: "Essay on Pigs" for baritone and orchestra: 20 minutes + (DGG cd)
Oratorio "The Raft of the Medusa" for soprano, baritone, speaker, chorus and orchestra: 70 minutes + (RCA cd)
1969/94:Symphony No.6 for two chamber orchestras: 37 minutes + (DGG cd)
1969-70:"Compases para preguntas ensimismadas" " for Viola and twenty-two players: 26 minutes
1971/91:Violin Concerto No.2 for violin, bass-baritone and thirty-three instruments: 29 minutes + (MDG cd)
"Der langwierige Weg in die Wohnung" for orchestra
1971-72/86:"Heliogabalus imperator" for orchestra: 28 minutes
1972-73:"Tristan"-Preludes for Piano and Orchestra: 43 minutes
1973: "Voices-Stimmen" for mezzo-soprano, tenor and chamber orchestra: 90 minutes
1974-76:"We Come to a River" for chorus and orchestra
1975: Ragtimes and Habanera for brass band: 14 minutes + (Teldec, Albany and RCO Live cds)
Concert Suite "Katharina Blum" for small orchestra: 20 minutes
1976: Oratorio "Jephte" for five sopranos, contralto, tenor, two basses, chorus and orchestra: 30 minutes
1977: "Aria de la Folia Espanola" for chamber orchestra: 22 minutes
Chaconne "Il Vitalino Raddoppiato" for Violin and Chamber Orchestra:35 minutes
1978/86:Ballet "Orpheus" or for speaker and orchestra: 110 minutes
1979: "Barcarola" for orchestra: 21 minutes + (EMI cd)
"Apollo trionfante" for chamber orchestra: 15 minutes
"Spielmusiken" for orchestra: 9 minutes
"Arien des Orpheus" for guitar, harp, harpsichord and strings: 18 minutes
"El Rey de Harlem" for mezzo-soprano and small orchestra: 30 minutes
1980/2003: "Triple Concerto Barocco" for chamber orchestra: 10 minutes
1981: "Le Miracle de la Rose" for Clarinet and seventeen instruments:40 minutes
1983-84:Symphony No.7: 38 minutes + (EMI and Wergo cds)
1984-85:"Deutschlandsberger Mohrentanz Nos.1 and 2 for orchestra: 10 minutes
1984-85:"Englische Liebeslieder" for Cello and Orchestra: 25 minutes
1985/92:"Fandango" for orchestra: 12 minutes
1985-86:"Ode an eine Aolsharfe" for Guitar and fifteen instruments:20 minutes + (Naxos cd)
1987: "Cinque piccolo concerti e ritornelli" for orchestra: 20 minutes
1990-93:"Requiem: 9 geistliche Konzerte" for piano and trumpet and chamber orchestra: 69 minutes + (Sony and Cybele cds)
1991: Aria and Rondo "La Selva incantata"for orchestra: 11 minutes + (Accord and Wergo cds)
Two Concert Arias for tenor and small orchestra: 12 minutes
1992: Introduction, Theme and Variations for Cello, Harp and Srings: 10 minutes
1992-93:Symphony No.8: 25 minutes + (Capriccio and Wergo cds)
1992-95:Ballet "Le disperazioni del Signor Pulcinella" (revised version of 1949"Jack Pudding"): 50 minutes
1993-94:Fantasia "Appassionatamente" for orchestra: 12 minutes
1994/2003:"Appasssionatamente plus" for orchestra: 16 minutes + (Cybele cd)
1995: Notturno for wind instruments, double bass and piano: 8 minutes
"Sonata per archi No.2": 9 minutes
"Vokalsinfonie" (from the Opera "Konig Hirsch") for chorus and orchestra: 20 minutes
1995-96:Ballet "Le fils de l'air": 35 minutes
1995-97:Symphony No.9 for chorus and orchestra: 55 minutes + (EMI and Wergo cds)
1996: Fantasia "Erlkonig" for orchestra: 6 minutes + (Tudor cd)
"Pulcinellas Erzahlungen" for chamber orchestra: 15 minutes
"Sieben Boleros" for orchestra: 22 minutes
Ballet "Tanzstunden": 110 minutes
"Zigeunerweisen und Sarabanden" for orchestra: 15 minutes
"Voie lactee o soeur lumineuse" for nineteen instruments: 8 minutes
1996-97:Violin Concerto No.3 "Doktor Faustus": 33 minutes + (Naxos and MDG cds)
1997/2003:"Aristaeus" for reciter and orchestra: 48 minutes + (Wergo cd)
1997-2000:Symphony No.10: 38 minutes + (Accord cd)
1999: Air "Fraternite" for orchestra: 10 minutes
2000-01:"Scorribanda Sinfonica" for orchestra: 15 minutes + (Wergo cd)
2001: "L'heure bleau" for chamber orchestra: 10 minutes
2004: "Sebastian im Traum" for orchestra: 15 minutes + (RCO Live cd)
"Funf Botschaften fur die Koningin von Saba" for orchestra: 17 minutes
2008: "Eulogium Musicum" for chorus and small orchestra: 20 minutes
2009: "Opfergang(Immolazione)" for tenor, baritone, men's voices and orchestra: 45 minutes
2011: "An den Wind" for chorus and small orchestra: 20 minutes
2012: Theatre Overture: 7 minutes
Ode to the Westwind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfwXatOmvVQ&playnext=1&list=PLB2BCCF8D0492D295&feature=results_main
By the way, Henze may be the most important modern "serious" composer to have written film music since ? (Shostakovich?): To find his film music for Resnais - Muriel and L'amour a mort and for Schlöndorff's Swann in love, you only have to go to the Henze project on archive.org and the blog Paroles gelées. I have seen these films and must say that while the music is indeed an essential part of the films, it is very striking and compelling listened to alone: the latter is an orchestral suite (which appears only in fragmentary fashion in the film, if my memory serves me well) that is an extraordinarily affecting evocation of the Proustian world without being in any sense a pastiche, while the more fragmentary pieces for the Resnais films are quite unsettling: try the beginning of L'amour for creepy psycho-gothic!
The archive.org project offers some other wonderful downloads of otherwise unavailable recordings, like Philip Langridge in the Kammermusik 1958.
Henze's 'Requiem', proper time to listen to it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=-Gf7EzrWHGg
Quote from: Lethevich on December 05, 2011, 06:26:09 AM
It might be a cultural thing, I have mortally offended god knows how many Americans by using that word.
Perhaps a justified response to the supercilious.
I was checking the Amazon out, and, Henze's got a pretty even representation. The new Wergo series has some very interesting non-Symphonies discs with all kinds of various things on them.
Courtesy of Norman Lebrecht, Henze was buried yesterday near his home in the town of Marino.
http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2012/11/hans-werner-henze-is-laid-to-rest-near-home.html
Yesterday was also an official day of mourning in the town. I guess they liked him.
Henze now buried and now Elliott Carter announced dead, Modern music is certainly taking a beating right now.
Listened to some extracts from his music today and must say that I really enjoyed what I heard (excerpts from some of the symphony, Requiem, piano concerti). Certainly a composer I would want to explore more.
This is certainly incredibly beautiful too:
http://www.youtube.com/v/VnetKieHAiU
RIP
Definitely getting more into Henze now. Really looking forward to exploring this composer's music. Anyone have any recommendations? I've already heard Symphony No. 8, which was awesome! I have a recording of this symphony on the way (Stenz) and I also bought the 2-CD EMI set with Symphonies 7 & 9 and some other works. I'm really looking forward to the DG set due out in the US next week.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 19, 2013, 10:35:19 AM
Definitely getting more into Henze now. Really looking forward to exploring this composer's music. Anyone have any recommendations? I've already heard Symphony No. 8, which was awesome! I have a recording of this symphony on the way (Stenz) and I also bought the 2-CD EMI set with Symphonies 7 & 9 and some other works. I'm really looking forward to the DG set due out in the US next week.
Have you heard his magnificent ballet
Undine? It's one of Henze's most colorful and approachable works and definitely my favorite piece I've heard from him yet:
(http://store.universal-music.co.uk/content/ebiz/universalmusic/invt/i./M./Y./0028945346724d/0028945346724d_medium.jpg)
I'm still having trouble warming to most of Henze's other music, but if you like his Symphonies 7-9, I can confidently recommend this set to you:
(http://www.selections.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/485x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/A/K/AK693.jpg)
:)
Quote from: kyjo on August 19, 2013, 10:58:48 AM
Have you heard his magnificent ballet Undine? It's one of Henze's most colorful and approachable works and definitely my favorite piece I've heard from him yet:
(http://store.universal-music.co.uk/content/ebiz/universalmusic/invt/i./M./Y./0028945346724d/0028945346724d_medium.jpg)
I'm still having trouble warming to most of Henze's other music, but if you like his Symphonies 7-9, I can confidently recommend this set to you:
(http://www.selections.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/485x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/A/K/AK693.jpg)
:)
Yes, I heard, and own,
Undine. A magnificent work for sure. Henze's
Symphony No. 8 is simply outstanding and I don't really understand how anyone who isn't well-versed in 20th Century music couldn't enjoy it to be honest. I'm really looking forward to exploring those
Symphonies 1-6, but those will have to wait until that DG box set is released here in the US.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 19, 2013, 11:08:22 AM
Yes, I heard, and own, Undine. A magnificent work for sure. Henze's Symphony No. 8 is simply outstanding and I don't really understand how anyone who isn't well-versed in 20th Century music couldn't enjoy it to be honest. I'm really looking forward to exploring those Symphonies 1-6, but those will have to wait until that DG box set is released here in the US.
It's not that I don't enjoy Henze's music; it's just that I haven't quite gotten my head around it yet. I'll revisit some of his music, in particular Symphony no. 8, due to your enthusiasm. :)
Quote from: kyjo on August 19, 2013, 11:14:31 AM
It's not that I don't enjoy Henze's music; it's just that I haven't quite gotten my head around it yet. I'll revisit some of his music, in particular Symphony no. 8, due to your enthusiasm. :)
As with a lot of mid-20th Century Modernists, it does take time to fully appreciate a work as many of these composers' music doesn't lay everything out for the listener.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 19, 2013, 10:35:19 AM
Definitely getting more into Henze now. Really looking forward to exploring this composer's music. Anyone have any recommendations? I've already heard Symphony No. 8, which was awesome! I have a recording of this symphony on the way (Stenz) and I also bought the 2-CD EMI set with Symphonies 7 & 9 and some other works. I'm really looking forward to the DG set due out in the US next week.
Is the 7th still as dreary as I recall?
I like the DG set very very much, and Henze's
5th, I think (or 4th), is one of my most played Symphonies... yes!, that IS something, haha!
Why not just get the DG Box? ??? I've wanted to hear ALL the Concertos... I think I like early-'60s Henze the best.
I think you're going to get hooked on Henze and spend all your money, haha!! :laugh: I think 'labyrinthine' describes Henze's output.
If I were to get some Henze, I guess it would either be the EMI, or the DG with some of the Concertos... maybe the Naxos disc of Violin Concertos? DG Concertos... but too expensive. :'(
Quote from: snyprrr on August 19, 2013, 06:39:47 PM
Is the 7th still as dreary as I recall?
I like the DG set very very much, and Henze's 5th, I think (or 4th), is one of my most played Symphonies... yes!, that IS something, haha!
Why not just get the DG Box? ??? I've wanted to hear ALL the Concertos... I think I like early-'60s Henze the best.
I think you're going to get hooked on Henze and spend all your money, haha!! :laugh: I think 'labyrinthine' describes Henze's output.
If I were to get some Henze, I guess it would either be the EMI, or the DG with some of the Concertos... maybe the Naxos disc of Violin Concertos? DG Concertos... but too expensive. :'(
I am definitely going to get to the DG set, snyprrr, but it has yet to be released here in the US, plus I'm waiting to see how much cheaper I can get (probably $20 off is the maximum amount). I would love to have all of those Wergo recordings, but they're very expensive. :( What I've heard so far of Henze's music I enjoy very much (
Symphony No. 8,
Undine). Can't wait to hear more!
That's good to hear about his early symphonies. I've been wanting to buy that Brilliant Classics cheap issue for a long time, but I'm glad I didn't as these performances will be in the DG set. :) I guess there is a plus side to being patient after all. ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on August 19, 2013, 06:39:47 PM
Is the 7th still as dreary as I recall?
The 7th dreary? Quite the opposite--it's a violent, angry piece, Henze's most Beethovenian work and I think the pick of the symphonies (the far more light-hearted 8th wouldn't be too far behind in my mind, though). I could see thinking of the 9th as dreary, though; the male-only chorus tends to leave the music monochromatic and, though there are a few fine moments, I think it's rather dull and worthy overall.
FWIW, I have a strong preference for the Wergo recording of the 7th: Janowski's faster tempi keep the tension level much higher than Rattle's EMI recording. To be fair to Rattle, his was a recording made soon after the work was premiered, and the CBSO probably didn't have as much experience with late Henze as the RSO Berlin would have had by the time Janowski made his; also Rattle's recording comes with the otherwise unavailable
Barcarola, which I've not heard in a while but was well worth the time.
Henze's Barcarola was recently performed at the Proms by Oliver Knussen and the BBC SO. I found the performance much more detailed and convincing than the Rattle, which by my estimation is an older recording. No doubt Knussen has had more time with the work than Rattle did at the time he recorded it, so perhaps an unfair advantage. It introduced a program with neoclassical and serial Stravinsky and Tippett's 2nd symphony, to great effect. Will listen again to the recording soon.
This should put a smile on snyprrr's face -
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 20, 2013, 11:47:04 AM
As I mentioned, if I could get at least $20 off the Henze DG box, I would buy and so I did:
[asin]B00CTKYO6U[/asin]
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00CTKYO6U/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Never bought from Amazon.de before, so I don't know of their reliability, but it was worth a shot. Anybody have any good experiences with Amazon.de?
Quote from: snyprrr on August 19, 2013, 06:39:47 PM
Is the 7th still as dreary as I recall?
As Edward points out, the 7th is hardly a dreary work at all. It's one of the most thrilling works of the last half of the 20th Century. I don't really know how you could come away feeling that way after listening to this work. :-\
I'm surprised to see DG not put more advertising into their Henze set...oh wait...this is Henze we're talking about and not Beethoven. I forgot. ::) :D
To the experienced Henze listeners here, how would you describe his compositional style to those of us out there that are newcomers to his music?
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 20, 2013, 05:03:23 PM
To the experienced Henze listeners here, how would you describe his compositional style to those of us out there that are newcomers to his music?
I would categorize Henze as an expressionistic composer. His music has violent, dissonant outbursts interspersed with strenuously lyrical moments.
Quote from: kyjo on August 20, 2013, 05:08:20 PM
I would categorize Henze as an expressionistic composer. His music has violent, dissonant outbursts interspersed with strenuously lyrical moments.
Sounds like my kind of composer then! :) I read somewhere he is the heir to Hartmann, do you agree with this, Kyle?
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 20, 2013, 05:14:54 PM
Sounds like my kind of composer then! :) I read somewhere he is the heir to Hartmann, do you agree with this, Kyle?
I have never heard that statement before, but I certainly agree with it! Henze is more difficult and eclectic than Hartmann, but both of their music is determinedly serious and almost relentlessly aggressive, but not without lyricism and moments of great visionary power. I especially admire him as a composer because while he is unafraid to experiment, he never cuts his ties to the musical traditions of the past. Henze's symphonies are definitely in the line of great German symphonies from Beethoven to Mahler to Hartmann. You'll really like Henze's music, I think! :) Just don't expect his music to be the same difficulty level of Berg or Hartmann.
Quote from: kyjo on August 20, 2013, 05:25:38 PM
I have never heard that statement before, but I certainly agree with it! Henze is more difficult and eclectic than Hartmann, but both of their music is determinedly serious and almost relentlessly aggressive, but not without lyricism and moments of great visionary power. I especially admire him as a composer because while he is unafraid to experiment, he never cuts his ties to the musical traditions of the past. Henze's symphonies are definitely in the line of great German symphonies from Beethoven to Mahler to Hartmann. You'll really like Henze's music, I think! :) Just don't expect his music to be the same difficulty level of Berg or Hartmann.
I don't really view Henze's music as being 'difficult' or any music as being such. I either respond to it or I simply do not. There are some works that will always require more listening to fully appreciate and then there are some that I'll probably never come around to, but I continue to persevere. But, let's just say, if I were to continue to view Schnittke as a 'difficult' composer like I did in the past, I would have never come around to appreciating him. There's a time when you have put your guard down and just listen to the music for what it is. You'll either 1. like it or 2. not like it. For me, time has proven to be a great healer and the more experience I get under my belt, the more I am able to come to a composer like Henze and listen with a clearer mindset than I had before.
As for the Hartmann-Henze connection, I can definitely see and understand the lineage, but, to my ears, it seems like Henze has more or a 'French' sounding orchestral approach except for the heavy sections like in
Symphony No. 7 when this is some good, old-fashioned German angst, but in some of the more lyrical moments I hear a lot of clarity and not much heaviness that you would otherwise hear in German music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 20, 2013, 05:03:23 PM
To the experienced Henze listeners here, how would you describe his compositional style to those of us out there that are newcomers to his music?
I think Henze is quite hard to pin down, as he's rather stylistically eclectic. A work like
Voices shows a composer sampling all sorts of styles and trying to tie them together (not always successfully);
Essay on Pigs obviously finds parallels in contemporary works by Maxwell Davies (most obviously
Eight Songs for a Mad King); yet one also finds a Beethovenian work like the 7th symphony and an almost Mendelssohnian lightness in the 8th.
Hartmann's influence is certainly present, and Henze often cited Mahler and Ravel as other key influences, but I think the composer he took most from was Berg. I hear a lot of
Wozzeck and even more of
Lulu, particularly in the vocal and operatic work--
Die Bassariden is blatantly derivative of Berg's operas (but in a good way). But the instrumental music often has more in common with the complexity and hidden Romanticism of the Chamber Concerto (for example the Second Piano Concerto or the Piano Quintet, where an austere facade intentionally fails to entirely conceal the emotion below).
Quote from: edward on August 20, 2013, 05:54:56 PM
I think Henze is quite hard to pin down, as he's rather stylistically eclectic. A work like Voices shows a composer sampling all sorts of styles and trying to tie them together (not always successfully); Essay on Pigs obviously finds parallels in contemporary works by Maxwell Davies (most obviously Eight Songs for a Mad King); yet one also finds a Beethovenian work like the 7th symphony and an almost Mendelssohnian lightness in the 8th.
Hartmann's influence is certainly present, and Henze often cited Mahler and Ravel as other key influences, but I think the composer he took most from was Berg. I hear a lot of Wozzeck and even more of Lulu, particularly in the vocal and operatic work--Die Bassariden is blatantly derivative of Berg's operas (but in a good way). But the instrumental music often has more in common with the complexity and hidden Romanticism of the Chamber Concerto (for example the Second Piano Concerto or the Piano Quintet, where an austere facade intentionally fails to entirely conceal the emotion below).
Okay, so Berg seems to be most the common thread with Hartmann and Henze. Excellent! As Berg is one of my favorites. All of the other things you wrote sound equally enticing and I'm getting more and more excited to hear his music blasting through the stereo. I'm definitely going to crank up
Symphony No. 7 when I receive it. 8) I'm glad I finally am exploring this composer, but I had to hear Hartmann first and I absolutely love his music like I did Berg's before him.
Quote from: snyprrr on December 04, 2011, 08:22:52 AM
I'm thinking there are many set of 20th Century Symphonies like this: Searle & Frankel, to name but two obvious ones.
Old post I know, but have to say that Searle and Frankel were 12-tone composers whereas Henze worked in a completely free style as pointed out so informatively by Edward.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 20, 2013, 04:48:51 PM
This should put a smile on snyprrr's face -
Yea, that's sweeeet! Yea, .de was good to me.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 21, 2013, 07:28:32 AM
Yea, that's sweeeet! Yea, .de was good to me.
Good to hear, snyprrr. Excited to receive the Henze set!
Quote from: lescamil on August 19, 2013, 10:11:23 PM
Henze's Barcarola was recently performed at the Proms by Oliver Knussen and the BBC SO. I found the performance much more detailed and convincing than the Rattle, which by my estimation is an older recording. No doubt Knussen has had more time with the work than Rattle did at the time he recorded it, so perhaps an unfair advantage. It introduced a program with neoclassical and serial Stravinsky and Tippett's 2nd symphony, to great effect. Will listen again to the recording soon.
This had been in my to-listen-to list for a while, and having got to it at last I have to agree 110%. Fabulously detailed and immediate performance. (The climax also reminds me of another huge influence on Henze, Wagner and in particular
Tristan und Isolde.)
I wonder whatever happened to Knussen's unreleased DG recordings of
Heliogabalus Imperator and the 8th symphony from about ten years back. If they're half as good as this one, they'd have been well worth hearing.
I'm very happy with Naxos's latest Henze release, and have been listening to it a lot.
[asin]B00U2OT0SM[/asin]
Peter Sheppard Skaerved went to Kickstarter to fund the first commercial recording of Il Vitalino radoppiato (though I'm informed Austrian Radio have a performance with Gidon Kremer in their vaults). It's a big success in my book; one of Henze's most appealing scores, a chaconne on a chaconne (Tomaso Vitali's once-famous one, henze the title) that travels through various styles, from Baroque pastiche, to high Romantic pastiche, to Henze pastiching himself in the final cadenza.
I wasn't overly impressed by the First and Third violin concertos in the previous Naxos release in this series, but the Second is a different kettle of fish. It's Henze at his most radically postmodern; the soloist dressed as Baron Munchausen, a tape part (simplified and made more focused for this recording), and a bass-baritone singing a commentary on Godel's theorem. Sounds very '60s, but sometimes this sort of mix just works, and I think it does here, in an archive BBC recording conducted by the composer.
Another recording of the 7th symphony incoming at the end of the month, this time from Markus Stenz (who's already given us an outstanding 8th):
http://www.oehmsclassics.de/artikel.aspx?voeid=16252
The couplings look a little slight, but I think they're all previously unreleased on CD. I'll be interested to see how Stenz compares to Janowski in the symphony.
A recording I'm crossing my fingers for - will it ever materialise? - is Henze's Phaedra, which made an enormous impression on me here in Berlin: I went to see it twice (very unusual for me). But...the counter-tenor was awful, hooty and screechy, and I never ever want to hear him again. The opera has a rather obscure action, and the music, fitting the original meaning of obscure, is richly suggestive with a dark undertow - and amazing orchestration, so I gave up trying to understand what was happening and listened. I saw The Bassarids (Die Bassariden) many years ago, and was similarly affected, but Phaedra revealed a deeper aural magic to my ears. In general I agree with an earlier post that Henze's forte is theatrical (and vocal?) music - but would add cinematic to that epithet. Some of his music for film is transporting - you don't need to see the film; or, to put it in another way, the film is almost superfluous. Years ago I downloaded LP rips of Swann in Love (a decent but not overwhelming film), Resnais' Amour à mort - both music and film quite mysterious and unsettling - and Muriel, very disturbing indeed, and that film is one of the great masterpieces of cinematic art. Unfortunately, only the music for Katharina Blum and Swann in Love is still available on the Avant Garde Project website (an immense resource, even if some recordings have been deleted on account of CD availability). I am tempted to put Henze right at the top of the list of great film composers, just above Bernard Herrmann.
Stravinsky made me think of 'Undine', so I checked out Henze's Works List again. Oh sh&t, that's a lot of stuff! :o Now I remember ::)
I have the 6 Symphonies & 5 SQs. Ever ytime I endeavor to add to this, I'm confronted with that massive vlob of stuff... I know you've tried to help me before, but, I dunno...
PC2?
VC2?
some ballet thingy, or minor orch. work?? He's certainly not the biggest Chamber Music Composer...
Quote from: snyprrr on March 23, 2017, 09:28:49 AM
Stravinsky made me think of 'Undine', so I checked out Henze's Works List again. Oh sh&t, that's a lot of stuff! :o Now I remember ::)
I have the 6 Symphonies & 5 SQs. Ever ytime I endeavor to add to this, I'm confronted with that massive vlob of stuff... I know you've tried to help me before, but, I dunno...
PC2?
VC2?
some ballet thingy, or minor orch. work?? He's certainly not the biggest Chamber Music Composer...
The guitar music, dude! 8)
Quote from: North Star on March 23, 2017, 11:43:50 AM
The guitar music, dude! 8)
I was there once... you're right... I'm just not able to listen to guitar music to much, it just makes me want to play, which is what I'm going to do now since I heard them leave and I can craaank it up, lol
I was enjoying some of the Concertos, 'Tristan',... the 60s stuff is pretty spiky,... he does come off as "Neo Classical" in an era of Serial Bigotry,... reminds me of Rihm?...
68 Pages on Amazon, whew... ALL those Wergo discs just coming out endlessly... well, looks like he's going to be a "YT Composer" for me...
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 23, 2017, 03:59:27 PM
His symphonies are a favorite of mine :D
But we ALL have those, lol- how does one look into more,... or does one? Like I said, the violin, cello, and piano concertos had some interest,... I mean, I've been through this before, and I though the 'Requiem' was kind of dour at the time...
Whatever else sounds like Symphony No.4? 3-5 would be the ones I like the most, but I liked 1-2, and like 6 when I'm in the mood. 7-10 I have not yet thoroughly... throughly... checked out, but,... but,... I think I'm more interested in 1958-1974/76...
Cross Post:
Just finished Guy Rickard's Hindemith, Hartmann and Henze (Oh, My!)
I was rather hoping that this would (in line with similar reading about this or that composer in the past) quicken more of a sympathy with Henze. The absorbing reading about Hindemith and Hartmann I entirely counted on; and on the whole, the intertwined, chronological narrative I found very well advised. Perhaps the problem (for me) is simply, that Henze was determined to politicize art (a requiem to honor Che, for out loud crying); this is, sadly, in line with a like problem in our day, the determination to favor (and support) art which is "socially relevant."
A kind of Eugenics in Art, it feels like.
As a result, and given the structure of the book, the last 50-ish pages were rather a chore.
I suppose I'll try to read it again, five years hence perhaps. The tough break for Henze is, the book has whetted my appetite for Hindemith and Hartmann, but quite firmly put me off any short-term interest in Henze. In fact, it rather has me feeling that the Henze in my library at present, is probably as much as I shall ever need.
I wouldn't mind a Requiem for Donald Trump, myself.
A concertato on "Happy Days Are Here Again."
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2017, 03:49:47 AM
Cross Post:
Just finished Guy Rickard's Hindemith, Hartmann and Henze (Oh, My!)
I was rather hoping that this would (in line with similar reading about this or that composer in the past) quicken more of a sympathy with Henze.... Perhaps the problem (for me) is simply, that Henze was determined to politicize art (a requiem to honor Che, for out loud crying); this is, sadly, in line with a like problem in our day, the determination to favor (and support) art which is "socially relevant."
In fact, it rather has me feeling that the Henze in my library at present, is probably as much as I shall ever need.
I still recall seeing a DGG album cover from the 1960's - perhaps of a set of the first five symphonies? - with
Henze looking very proletarian in a rough wrinkled work shirt as he conducted an orchestra.
I found it rather hypocritical for him to leave West Germany and establish himself in Italy, rather than for East Germany or Soviet Russia itself, if Communism was such a wonderful system for people to live under!
Writer
Tom Wolfe coined the phrase "radical chic" to describe affluent pro-Communist types, who tragically just cannot tear themselves away from their Italian villas or Manhattan penthouses for a communal farm outside of Chelyabinsk. 8)
Anyway, I recall listening and trying to find something of interest in those symphonies, and gave
Der Junge Lord a chance, but ended up just shrugging.
Hartmann and
Hindemith were the superior composers.
In the late 1980's and 1990's I returned to
Henze, because I thought my much older ears might react differently...but no.
If I can still listen to Feldman the rapist, then I can forgive Henze's political naivete. His work is hit or miss for me, but when it hits it does so much harder than Hartmann or Hindemith
Quote from: bwv 1080 on August 29, 2017, 07:10:45 AM
If I can still listen to Feldman the rapist [...]
"
That escalated quickly."
In my archives here at school, I just found the Henze set of symphonies I-VI on DGG: I will give them another chance.
I had forgotten that the Sixth Symphony is a piece of "radical chic" with North Vietnamese ditties palling around with Cuban influences. $:)
From the notes: (Henze wanted to use the) ..."experiences of a bourgeois who had been writing music to the ruling class for 20 years to compose against the bourgeosie...I wanted affirmation, direct avowal of revolution."
First played in Cuba before "...an audience mainly of soldiers of the Revolutionary Army, sons of workers and students of the University of Havana."
A comma after "workers" is not where it should be! ??? 8) So was it an entirely male audience?
Quote from: Cato on August 29, 2017, 06:36:30 AMI found it rather hypocritical for him to leave West Germany and establish himself in Italy, rather than for East Germany or Soviet Russia itself, if Communism was such a wonderful system for people to live under!
Hanns Eisler did exactly that, and lived out the rest of his days depressed in East Germany.
Shame about his attempts to be more accessible, though, as Eisler had a good amount of talent, and what he did with it was often unappealing for both the masses and the specialists.
From the "What Are you Listening To?" topic:
I gave the Henze Symphony #6 another chance.
It has a great amount of hin und her. Snippets of it might be useful for the soundtrack of a Transformers movie. ;) In general, I was bored. c. 25 minutes of whooping, whooshing, clicking, popping, blipping, blooping, and other experimentalist cliches from the 1950's. Beim besten Willen I could find nothing coherent about it, except perhaps as a symbol of the chaos of "revolution." Supposedly the symphony has a North Vietnamese song in it somewhere, and "Cuban rhythms," but these are basically submerged in the chaos and, as a result, become unimportant. An electric guitar has a few blips and bloops here and there, and a banjo goes plink plunk now and then. I suppose they were thrown into the maelstrom because it was 1969. 8)
The description of it on Wikipedia gives you an impression that you might hear something a la Aaron Copland, but...no, you won't!
See:
https://www.youtube.com/v/w3nrruYvcpQ&list=PLlaJDxtt_sFPGsK0aiS2BaWCB2ymEjOjR
Quote from: Cato on August 30, 2017, 04:15:31 AM
From the "What Are you Listening To?" topic:
I gave the Henze Symphony #6 another chance.
It has a great amount of hin und her. Snippets of it might be useful for the soundtrack of a Transformers movie. ;) In general, I was bored. c. 25 minutes of whooping, whooshing, clicking, popping, blipping, blooping, and other experimentalist cliches from the 1950's. Beim besten Willen I could find nothing coherent about it, except perhaps as a symbol of the chaos of "revolution." Supposedly the symphony has a North Vietnamese song in it somewhere, and "Cuban rhythms," but these are basically submerged in the chaos and, as a result, become unimportant. An electric guitar has a few blips and bloops here and there, and a banjo goes plink plunk now and then. I suppose they were thrown into the maelstrom because it was 1969. 8)
The description of it on Wikipedia gives you an impression that you might hear something a la Aaron Copland, but...no, you won't!
See:
https://www.youtube.com/v/w3nrruYvcpQ&list=PLlaJDxtt_sFPGsK0aiS2BaWCB2ymEjOjR
Interesting. It's a while since I've heard it (if I've heard it), so take this as abstract response to the present post . . .
"The description of it on Wikipedia gives you an impression that you might hear something
a la Aaron Copland, but..." . . . I can imagine it!
Just like El salon México! Nnnyeh, I don't think so.
By now, "bleep bloop" has about established itself as a derisive phrase, and while there is some bleep-music which probably all of us here do enjoy, the challenge I should find as a composer is, how to write "bleep bloop" so that the result is specific, distinct.
Webern, of course, is the iconic success story there.
Carter, equally iconic and successful. The question is of exactly the same type applying to music of what style soever: how do I make the result coherent, and how do I make it something which belongs to me?
Now, the
Henze Sixth may be a great piece, or it may not. (Again, say I've not heard it: therefore I have no opinion.) But something like "It uses a Vietnamese song and Cuban rhythms" may read great as a program note: it means nothing as to whether the piece is a musical success. (In just this way, a big-name US composer's program notes often include reproductions of spiffy pre-compositional grids in four or five colors. A great program note, and great music, are two distinct questions.)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2017, 04:40:36 AM
. . . Webern, of course, is the iconic success story there. Carter, equally iconic and successful.
And
Le marteau, bien sûr.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2017, 04:40:36 AM
By now, "bleep bloop" has about established itself as a derisive phrase, and while there is some bleep-music which probably all of us here do enjoy, the challenge I should find as a composer is, how to write "bleep bloop" so that the result is specific, distinct. Webern, of course, is the iconic success story there. Carter, equally iconic and successful. The question is of exactly the same type applying to music of what style soever: how do I make the result coherent, and how do I make it something which belongs to me?
Precisely! And my ears were not hearing
Henze answering that question with much success. I am sure others somewhere might think that he did, but...
The earlier 5 symphonies are next: I will listen to them in reverse order. 0:)
https://www.youtube.com/v/s1SAYYYqeQo
https://www.youtube.com/v/OX-wLIreYjE
wow, this Thread has taken a turn!! :o
What up with Feldman and rape?
I still like the DG Symphonies... but, yea, Henze may be a snooty paedo hanging around playgrounds,... I dunno...
oh, the Elite ::)
Didn't Gesualdo kill somebody? :laugh:
From the "What Are You Listening To?" topic:
Quote from: Cato on August 31, 2017, 10:33:19 AM
Hans Werner Henze Symphony #5.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/ZbEAAOSw6hNZg4oW/s-l225.jpg)
A better work than the Sixth Symphony, which I commented upon a few days ago here and in the Henze topic. Episodic, with hints of Berg and even Prokofiev's Second Symphony (the latter I suspect are coincidental), and some nice moments, but sounding like too many other 15-20 minute "Wonder Symphonies" of the late 1940's-1950's.
Certainly there is more of interest here in the
Fifth than in the
Sixth Symphony, but these few interesting sections are for me, at least, barely above the level of "mildly." The slow movement is perhaps the one where
Henze shows some originality. I will confess to thinking that - again - parts of the work would be fine for a movie score, e.g. a Mike Hammer-private detective type sneaking down dark alleys and coming across horrific crimes. $:) 8)
A very amusing thread title! Henze baked beans? Haven't bought them for years. Must buy some!! :) ;D
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 01, 2017, 05:19:06 AM
A very amusing thread title! Henze baked beans? Haven't bought them for years. Must buy some!! :) ;D
(http://www.ukgoods.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/h/e/heinz-baked-beans_3.jpg)
Well...I will avoid certain jokes here! 0:)
Quote from: Cato on September 01, 2017, 03:56:18 AM
From the "What Are You Listening To?" topic:
Certainly there is more of interest here in the Fifth than in the Sixth Symphony, but these few interesting sections are for me, at least, barely above the level of "mildly." The slow movement is perhaps the one where Henze shows some originality. I will confess to thinking that - again - parts of the work would be fine for a movie score, e.g. a Mike Hammer-private detective type sneaking down dark alleys and coming across horrific crimes. $:) 8)
4-5 have a nice blue-green anonymity to them; I would take them for a drive on an ominous looking day. Maybe I'm just not feeling picky about Henze right now, even though he may have been a major prick. Looks like I'll take that DG Cycle with me today! ;)
I certainly don't "like" him for his originality: it's that mid century anonymity I like. But, a little goes a long way, hence, no further Henze purchases have been forthcoming. Got rid of the SONY 'Requiem' a looong time ago, probably because I have no time for atheist religiosity.
I'd still be pretty sure he was a paedo... hangin round playgrounds type...
Maybe it's his huge... uh... output that has me? I'm sure I would listen if someone gave me that whole DG Box.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 01, 2017, 08:06:19 AM
4-5 have a nice blue-green anonymity to them; I would take them for a drive on an ominous looking day.
I certainly don't "like" him for his originality: it's that mid century anonymity I like. But, a little goes a long way....
Yes, not a bad description and conclusion: similar to my latest reactions. Because of his (relative) fame - he vied with
Stockhausen for the title of Greatest Living German Composer in the later 20th century, and both were born in the late 1920's - one has the feeling that his works
must be investigated.
Quote from: Cato on September 01, 2017, 08:13:29 AM
Yes, not a bad description and conclusion: similar to my latest reactions. Because of his (relative) fame - he vied with Stockhausen for the title of Greatest Living German Composer in the later 20th century,and both were born in the late 1920's - one has the feeling that his works must be investigated.
I would venture that the "Elite" would prefer Henze to Stockhausen, being as Henze seems to be more of a beurocrat(where's the "a"????), a wonk, catering to a certain crowd; KHS not so much?
party line Heinz they call him :laugh:
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 30, 2017, 08:32:29 PM
Feldman and rape? WTF? where are the sources? ???
Bunita Marcus revealed it a couple of years ago:
http://slippedisc.com/2014/12/us-composer-accuses-another-of-sexual-violence/ (http://slippedisc.com/2014/12/us-composer-accuses-another-of-sexual-violence/)
Ah, Lebrecht. He is to classical music what Blabbermouth (a "news" site) is to progressive metal. Sensationalist, often taking single lines from interviews and blowing them out of all proportion. Take it with more than a pinch of salt.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 01, 2017, 08:06:19 AM
. . . even though he may have been a major prick.
Every now and again, you surprise, simply by speaking to the point 8)
Today's lesson in tiresome polemics:
QuoteMen without politics would be animals and art without politics would be trivial . . . Art isn't involved in itself. If there are H-bombs and concentration camps art either acknowledges this (and makes these things its subject, literally or analytically) or it deliberately turns its back on them and so falsifies reality. It can't turn aside and pursue its own path, it has no path. Art is realism or it is trivial, and there's nothing much in between. We could re-write the parable of the man who fell among thieves: an artist came down the road, saw the wounded man in the gutter, crossed over to pass by on the other side, and fell in a ditch and broke his neck.
Henze & Edward Bond published this
twaddle propaganda together. And you will pardon me for thinking that the composer, who was compelled to participate in Hitler Youth reportedly against his will, ought to have known better.
There is no need in this epoch to argue with Henze's shallow assertions, and the Dick Cheneyesque fallacy of thinking you have proven an assertion merely by repeating it, re-phrased.
My point is:
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. I do my own work pretty much beneath the radar of an environment which primarily rewards shallow reference to current events ("social relevance"). Not all of it is as puritanical in mission as the Henze screed, but that is not much of any matter.
"Social relevance": why? In large part because, "Ooh, look—this piece is about [insert activist concern
here]—neat-o!" is a much easier process than digesting and evaluating a work which is "just" a piece of music.
One can argue that I might listen to the best of Henze's music just on its own merits. And, in principle, I agree.
That said, my artistic objections to and personal repulsion from the screed above, result in a much-reduced need to investigate even the best of the artist's work, for the foreseeable future.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2017, 05:54:30 AM
Every now and again, you surprise, simply by speaking to the point 8)
Today's lesson in tiresome polemics:
Henze & Edward Bond published this twaddle propaganda together. And you will pardon me for thinking that the composer, who was compelled to participate in Hitler Youth reportedly against his will, ought to have known better.
There is no need in this epoch to argue with Henze's shallow assertions, and the Dick Cheneyesque fallacy of thinking you have proven an assertion merely by repeating it, re-phrased.
My point is: Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. I do my own work pretty much beneath the radar of an environment which primarily rewards shallow reference to current events ("social relevance"). Not all of it is as puritanical in mission as the Henze screed, but that is not much of any matter.
"Social relevance": why? In large part because, "Ooh, look—this piece is about [insert activist concern here]—neat-o!" is a much easier process than digesting and evaluating a work which is "just" a piece of music.
One can argue that I might listen to the best of Henze's music just on its own merits. And, in principle, I agree.
That said, my artistic objections to and personal repulsion from the screed above, result in a much-reduced need to investigate even the best of the artist's work, for the foreseeable future.
Very nicely put,
Karl, very nicely indeed!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2017, 03:49:47 AM
Cross Post:
Just finished Guy Rickard's Hindemith, Hartmann and Henze (Oh, My!)
I was rather hoping that this would (in line with similar reading about this or that composer in the past) quicken more of a sympathy with Henze. The absorbing reading about Hindemith and Hartmann I entirely counted on; and on the whole, the intertwined, chronological narrative I found very well advised. Perhaps the problem (for me) is simply, that Henze was determined to politicize art (a requiem to honor Che, for out loud crying); this is, sadly, in line with a like problem in our day, the determination to favor (and support) art which is "socially relevant."
A kind of Eugenics in Art, it feels like.
As a result, and given the structure of the book, the last 50-ish pages were rather a chore.
I suppose I'll try to read it again, five years hence perhaps. The tough break for Henze is, the book has whetted my appetite for Hindemith and Hartmann, but quite firmly put me off any short-term interest in Henze. In fact, it rather has me feeling that the Henze in my library at present, is probably as much as I shall ever need.
Another thought here - Hindemith and Hartmann were mature adults when Hitler came to power while Henze grew up under it with a father who was an ardent Nazi. A reaction toward an opposite political pole stemming from a lack of grounding becomes understandable
Quote from: bwv 1080 on September 02, 2017, 06:16:34 AM
Another thought here - Hindemith and Hartmann were mature adults when Hitler came to power while Henze grew up under it with a father who was an ardent Nazi. A reaction toward an opposite political pole stemming from a lack of grounding becomes understandable
Aye, that is fair.
Quote from: Cato on August 30, 2017, 04:15:31 AM
From the "What Are you Listening To?" topic:
I gave the Henze Symphony #6 another chance.
It has a great amount of hin und her. Snippets of it might be useful for the soundtrack of a Transformers movie. ;) In general, I was bored. c. 25 minutes of whooping, whooshing, clicking, popping, blipping, blooping, and other experimentalist cliches from the 1950's. Beim besten Willen I could find nothing coherent about it, except perhaps as a symbol of the chaos of "revolution." Supposedly the symphony has a North Vietnamese song in it somewhere, and "Cuban rhythms," but these are basically submerged in the chaos and, as a result, become unimportant. An electric guitar has a few blips and bloops here and there, and a banjo goes plink plunk now and then. I suppose they were thrown into the maelstrom because it was 1969. 8)
The description of it on Wikipedia gives you an impression that you might hear something a la Aaron Copland, but...no, you won't!
See:
https://www.youtube.com/v/w3nrruYvcpQ&list=PLlaJDxtt_sFPGsK0aiS2BaWCB2ymEjOjR
Took the Box... it was No.4 that I've liked previous, in about seven linked sections, much like a ballet. Yes, I can hear FilmNoir there. Again, its anonymity is, for me, the best thing going. It does sound like Hartmann-Lite in a way. I still see dark blues and greens; I'm sure there's better examples of this sound (Prokofiev's No.6?), but I'm not kicking it out of bed just yet.
I'll check No.5 today.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2017, 05:54:30 AM
Every now and again, you surprise, simply by speaking to the point 8)
Today's lesson in tiresome polemics:
Henze & Edward Bond published this twaddle propaganda together. And you will pardon me for thinking that the composer, who was compelled to participate in Hitler Youth reportedly against his will, ought to have known better.
There is no need in this epoch to argue with Henze's shallow assertions, and the Dick Cheneyesque fallacy of thinking you have proven an assertion merely by repeating it, re-phrased.
My point is: Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. I do my own work pretty much beneath the radar of an environment which primarily rewards shallow reference to current events ("social relevance"). Not all of it is as puritanical in mission as the Henze screed, but that is not much of any matter.
"Social relevance": why? In large part because, "Ooh, look—this piece is about [insert activist concern here]—neat-o!" is a much easier process than digesting and evaluating a work which is "just" a piece of music.
One can argue that I might listen to the best of Henze's music just on its own merits. And, in principle, I agree.
That said, my artistic objections to and personal repulsion from the screed above, result in a much-reduced need to investigate even the best of the artist's work, for the foreseeable future.
See, I wooould be one of those to only Compose if I had a "mission". I do find it hard to even contemplate a... Viola Sonata,... but, I find it easy peasy to come up with a work for three singers, strings, trombones, and percussion, and call it 'Pilate'.
For "Songs" I need a broken heart; for "serious music" I personally do need... "politics" (if that's even the correct word). I have to believe that Bach's Christianity is in good part responsible FOR Bach. Just like Henze's atheism is responsible for his 'Requiem'.
So- there's MY problem: no matter how "good the music is" in Henze's atheism, I simply do not care for the politico-religious idea behind the music. And, surely, if I investigate, I will find a LackOfGod in his choice of intervals and rhythms, a lack of God so profound as to make the piece practically worthless...
HOWEVER- I still think Sting can write a good song, even though, again, I hear he can be a major prick. BUT I DO HAVE PROBLEMS WITH DEVILS WRITING HEAVENLY MUSIC.
Karl, why don't you write an Opera called 'Potsdam'? That would be funny, with the 3Tenors playing the Big3. LOL, I just cracked myself up...
...beats 'Brokeback' :laugh:
I dunno, I'm torn over "Art for Art's Sake" this morning... I sure do revel in pure sound, and such... sounds to me like I'm a big time hypocrite!! ???
Quote from: bwv 1080 on September 01, 2017, 08:40:26 AM
Bunita Marcus revealed it a couple of years ago:
http://slippedisc.com/2014/12/us-composer-accuses-another-of-sexual-violence/ (http://slippedisc.com/2014/12/us-composer-accuses-another-of-sexual-violence/)
'It's A Man's World'
It's certainly best this morning if I don't comment, I guarantee my response will not be PC. :(
Quote from: snyprrr on September 02, 2017, 06:33:52 AM
I dunno, I'm torn over "Art for Art's Sake" this morning... I sure do revel in pure sound, and such... sounds to me like I'm a big time hypocrite!! ???
I am, to be sure, ready to bestow evocative titles upon my musical work.
But, there is also a reason why I did not give my
First Symphony a sexy subtitle.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2017, 05:54:30 AM
Today's lesson in tiresome polemics:
Henze & Edward Bond published this twaddle propaganda together. And you will pardon me for thinking that the composer, who was compelled to participate in Hitler Youth reportedly against his will, ought to have known better.
There is no need in this epoch to argue with Henze's shallow assertions, and the Dick Cheneyesque fallacy of thinking you have proven an assertion merely by repeating it, re-phrased.
My point is: Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. I do my own work pretty much beneath the radar of an environment which primarily rewards shallow reference to current events ("social relevance"). Not all of it is as puritanical in mission as the Henze screed, but that is not much of any matter.
"Social relevance": why? In large part because, "Ooh, look—this piece is about [insert activist concern here]—neat-o!" is a much easier process than digesting and evaluating a work which is "just" a piece of music.
One can argue that I might listen to the best of Henze's music just on its own merits. And, in principle, I agree.
That said, my artistic objections to and personal repulsion from the screed above, result in a much-reduced need to investigate even the best of the artist's work, for the foreseeable future.
Things are more complicated than this : there was in the 80's a polemic between Henze and Lachenmann, the former defending his right to, at times, write something that is "pretty" and nothing else, while the latter thought that anything that could be considered as "beautiful" was "bourgeois" bullshit and artistic failure (and thought Henze was a "bourgeois" and useless composer). At least, it shows that Henze didn't follow the creed you think he did.
Plus in that quote, Henze never say that all art must be "socially relevant", but that art should acknowledges reality, which is a totally different thing. Henze wrote plenty of pure music, without any link to activism, even in his most leftist period.
Finally, on the sixth symphony : the recording doesn't do it justice. It's written for two separated orchestras, and the recording makes the two sound like one giant blurb. I haven't heard it live, but I read the score, and it makes much more sense on the page than on recording. I believe it would also makes more sense live, with the two orchestras clearly separated.
Quote from: Mr Bloom on September 03, 2017, 01:22:34 AM
Things are more complicated than this : there was in the 80's a polemic between Henze and Lachenmann, the former defending his right to, at times, write something that is "pretty" and nothing else, while the latter thought that anything that could be considered as "beautiful" was "bourgeois" bullshit and artistic failure (and thought Henze was a "bourgeois" and useless composer). At least, it shows that Henze didn't follow the creed you think he did.
Plus in that quote, Henze never say that all art must be "socially relevant", but that art should acknowledges reality, which is a totally different thing. Henze wrote plenty of pure music, without any link to activism, even in his most leftist period.
Finally, on the sixth symphony : the recording doesn't do it justice. It's written for two separated orchestras, and the recording makes the two sound like one giant blurb. I haven't heard it live, but I read the score, and it makes much more sense on the page than on recording. I believe it would also makes more sense live, with the two orchestras clearly separated.
Thanks for all this.
Symphony No.5 (1962)
I heard this as "new music" yesterday, had totally forgot anything about it. Hey, I don't know what the big beef is,- had you told me this was BAZimmermann or something I would have cheerfully acceded its worthiness. I guess, with so much else to hate, I can't find a reason not to like this one. I liked the spitting brass in the 1st, the quietude of the 2nd, and the 3rd isn't as obvious as it could be. I don't know, I think Symphonies from the 60s have a peculiarly intriguing set of "impetus factors" that weren't around earlier; I hear here a Symphony that could only have been written in a post-WWII era paradigm. LOL, all that sounds like a load of bs!!!
I think I may actually enjoy all of 1-6. The 5 String Quartets are a much tougher nut to crack, with some quite dreary stretches of greyness and complexity.
I agree with some on this thread, that Henze can be a mixed bag. Some of his works today seem a bit dated, regarding sound and/or message. Nevertheless there are quite some works for the goody bag. The requiem i.e. is one of my favorite late 20th century compositions.
Undine
This receives prominence because of the dedication of Oliver Knussen. Many times I've been tempted to get it. I believe I've at least sampled some of it, but I can't recall and "think" it must sound a bit like the Symphonies 1-4. If I saw it for $1 I would be very tempted. Who has the most experience with this muisc and can articulate its strengths and weakness?
Can we achieve consensus here? Masterpiece, or SnoozeFest?
Seriously, if someone GAVE me that DG Henze Box, I wouldn't complain! :laugh:
Symphony No.1 (1947)
I don't know what's not to like about this. It's the 1962 Chamber Orchestra orchestration , and has a pleasant Stravinskian air, especially the woodwinds in the slow mvmt.
Well, I mean, really,... off to No.2! ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on September 03, 2017, 08:02:37 AM
Undine
This receives prominence because of the dedication of Oliver Knussen. Many times I've been tempted to get it. I believe I've at least sampled some of it, but I can't recall and "think" it must sound a bit like the Symphonies 1-4. If I saw it for $1 I would be very tempted. Who has the most experience with this muisc and can articulate its strengths and weakness?
Can we achieve consensus here? Masterpiece, or SnoozeFest?
Seriously, if someone GAVE me that DG Henze Box, I wouldn't complain! :laugh:
That box set is on spotify.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 03, 2017, 08:02:37 AM
Undine
This receives prominence because of the dedication of Oliver Knussen. Many times I've been tempted to get it. I believe I've at least sampled some of it, but I can't recall and "think" it must sound a bit like the Symphonies 1-4. If I saw it for $1 I would be very tempted. Who has the most experience with this muisc and can articulate its strengths and weakness?
Can we achieve consensus here? Masterpiece, or SnoozeFest?
Seriously, if someone GAVE me that DG Henze Box, I wouldn't complain! :laugh:
Masterpiece. Same style as the early symphonies. If you look at the prices of Undine alone and the box, the box is a steal.
Quote from: bwv 1080 on September 03, 2017, 02:55:51 PM
Masterpiece. Same style as the early symphonies. If you look at the prices of Undine alone and the box, the box is a steal.
Of course,
Undine has been reissued since through Decca:
[asin]B0071AGNN0[/asin]
Quote from: bwv 1080 on September 03, 2017, 02:55:51 PM
Masterpiece. Same style as the early symphonies. If you look at the prices of Undine alone and the box, the box is a steal.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 03, 2017, 03:59:24 PM
Of course, Undine has been reissued since through Decca:
[asin]B0071AGNN0[/asin]
Thanks.
Symphony No.2 (1949)
I've just started on No.2. Again, I like it well enough...
Quote from: snyprrr on September 03, 2017, 02:31:44 PM
Symphony No.1 (1947)
I don't know what's not to like about this. It's the 1962 Chamber Orchestra orchestration , and has a pleasant Stravinskian air, especially the woodwinds in the slow mvmt.
Well, I mean, really,... off to No.2! ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on September 04, 2017, 05:36:36 AM
Symphony No.2 (1949)
I've just started on No.2. Again, I like it well enough...
Many thanks! My retro review is on hold until tomorrow:
Symphony #4 is next on my countdown to #1. I think you are correct: the earlier symphonies have their charms.
Quote from: Cato on September 04, 2017, 05:52:49 AM
Many thanks! My retro review is on hold until tomorrow: Symphony #4 is next on my countdown to #1. I think you are correct: the earlier symphonies have their charms.
No.2 turned out to be a lot more Hartmann angst than the really rather charming No.1; but the conviction behind No.2 kept the interest up until the end.
No.3 ups the "think about it" quotient with my favorite Henze movement so far, the seemingly BAZ inspired jazz inflected finale.
So, between 1-5, No.4, the one I thought I liked the best, turns out to be my least favored, even though it originally turned me on with its linking structure, so Darmstadt! And, it is a bit hyper-emotional in content. By contrast, No.5 came off as the best integrated and most stimulating in utterance and delivery.
The sound on that DG set is frighteningly good! :o
Quote from: snyprrr on September 04, 2017, 06:48:41 PM
No.2 turned out to be a lot more Hartmann angst than the really rather charming No.1; but the conviction behind No.2 kept the interest up until the end.
No.3 ups the "think about it" quotient with my favorite Henze movement so far, the seemingly BAZ* inspired jazz inflected finale.
So, between 1-5, No.4, the one I thought I liked the best, turns out to be my least favored, even though it originally turned me on with its linking structure, so Darmstadt! And, it is a bit hyper-emotional in content. By contrast, No.5 came off as the best integrated and most stimulating in utterance and delivery.
The sound on that DG set is frighteningly good! :o
* For those who do not understand the reference,
BAZ =
Bernd Alois Zimmermann, I assume, and NOT movie director
Baz Luhrmann.
I have re-listened to the
Fourth and the
Third, and am finding that, as I go backward into time, I find the symphonies improving! 0:)
The
Fourth was intended to be music for the second act for an opera (
Koenig Hirsch ) and so has a more evocative, angularly lyrical aspect now and then. It is less successful than another symphony based on operatic music, i.e. the
Prokofiev Third Symphony. The shadows of
Arnold Schoenberg, Alban Berg and, at times,
Karl Amadeus Hartmann can be heard now and then, which is not necessarily bad by any means. I find the music to be less episodic and more integrated than the
Fifth and
Sixth, although "episodism" is maybe why I find
Henze's music problematic.
The
Third Symphony has a "classical" outline:
Invocation of Apollo, Dithyramb, and
Conjuring Dance. Again, there is a meandering, episodic aspect to the music, which makes it fine for a movie or even a cartoon score: at times I could imagine a 1950's detective movie with fights in dirty alleys. $:) Saxophones are thrown in now and then to provide an illusion that "jazz" is occurring. 8) The last movement is probably the strongest, so
Snyprr is right: this work has some nice moments to "think about" ! 0:)
Quote from: Cato on September 06, 2017, 03:47:41 AM
Saxophones are thrown in now and then to provide an illusion that "jazz" is occurring. 8)
Wicked, but fair 0:)
. . . so I just lucked out, by chancing to revisit
Henze via the
Conjuring Dance? Hey, I'll take it!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 06, 2017, 03:59:17 AM
Wicked, but fair 0:)
. . . so I just lucked out, by chancing to revisit Henze via the Conjuring Dance? Hey, I'll take it!
8) Sure, why not?!
Later today I hope to revisit the
Second Symphony.
Quote from: Cato on September 06, 2017, 04:12:52 AM
8) Sure, why not?!
Later today I hope to revisit the Second Symphony.
And so I have! Keep in mind that my first impressions of the first five symphonies go back nearly 50 years! I heard them again about 20 years ago, and my impressions had not improved.
The
Second Symphony - like the
Fourth - shows its DNA from certain composers, and this time I believe
Karl Amadeus Hartmann's shadow is the largest: there were a few moments which, if one knows
Hartmann's works very well, or certain works of
Ernst Krenek, would give one the idea that they were more than an homage to the older composers! 0:) Of course they are not!
I found the first movement to be the most intriguing, with things sliding rather downhill after that in the next two. Again, there are some moments with a cinematic atmosphere, and they are well done.
It's really got to be better than "good movie music," hasn't it?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 06, 2017, 04:20:33 PM
It's really got to be better than "good movie music," hasn't it?
I keep hoping that it
must be! 0:)
In fact, I tried the
Third Symphony again this morning, but the "noir-detective-movie (Mike Hammer) c. 1955" atmosphere kept coming back to me! Certainly others may not hear such things in the music: my reaction could be rather...eccentric. 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 06, 2017, 03:59:17 AM
Wicked, but fair 0:)
. . . so I just lucked out, by chancing to revisit Henze via the Conjuring Dance? Hey, I'll take it!
I think you did. It certainly impressed me as a very kaleidoscopic dance that I might call pre-historic Zimmermann. Orchestration and colour are definitely part of Henze's tool-box. And, I liked the jazz bits- I find ALL "Composer Jazz" to sound like this, but, in brief five second spurts, it sounds to me like genius. Ralph Shapey might overdo the jazz sometimes for my tastes,... or not, but it can get noisy noisy noisy...
And I shall indeed embark on the combination of revisitation and new discovery appropriate to the first 8 symphonies (I think I have 7 & 8, or it may be 8 & 9 . . . .)
Quote from: North Star on August 30, 2017, 05:35:38 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/s1SAYYYqeQo
https://www.youtube.com/v/OX-wLIreYjE
Bump. 0:)
Note taken 8)
Symphony No.6 (1969)
I excitedly have gotten to the end of Round1 of the DG traversal. I saved 6 for last, since that's what you all were discussing when I happened upon your Posts.
So, 1) It's pretty flippin' noisy, lol! But, there is so much going on, there is not much time for bluntness. For some reason, I actually can hear the humid Cuban air in this music, the tropical and the street intermixing.
2) Hey! A banjo! Well, now it sounds Vietnamese to me! I'm still in rapture over hearing that banjo. Oh, and here is a harpsichord flourish. And there's a vibraphone, thankfully minimally used.
3) And then there's the contact-mic solo violin, which almost gives this a Schnittke-esque carnival atmosphere Violin Concerto.
4) And then there are passages of High Modernism that sound like '60s Lutoslawski to me, very very Modern sounding. And I keep thinking "1969", and thinking of others musics, and I really came away from this (antiphonal orchestras and all!) from this thinking it was one of the glories of "'60s Classical, Dude". Only when I reflect on "attitude", and knowledge of the back-story, do I get a "hipper than thou" feeling, that, still, seems somewhat justified. Are there other Henze works from the period that are as wild?: I recall a Violin Concerto with tape and speaker?
So, I had a very positive experience with No.6 this time, but that is only because I only heard the music. I didn't even "hear" that 'Song of Freedom', it all sounded to me like a dodecaphonic(?) Villa-Lobos on Hunter Thompson's drug regime! ;)
LET ME MAKE A LIST OF HIS "CONCERTOS" TO SEE WHERE THEY STAND...
Violin Concerto No.1 (1947)
Violin Concerto No.2 (1971) I think this is the famous tape+speaker work?
Violin Concerto No.3, '3 Potraits from T.Mann's Doktor Faustus' (1996)
Piano Concerto No.1 (1950)
Piano Concerto No.2 (1967) ...or is it this one?
'Ode an den Westwind' (Cello Concerto;1953)
Double bass Concerto (1966)
Double Concerto (harp,oboe;1966) "Holliger+Holliger"
'Englische Liebslieder' (Cello Concerto;1984-85)
'Requiem: 9 geistlische Konzert' (1990-91)
Sonata per archi (1957-58)
Fantasia for strings (1966)
Seconda sonata per archi (1996)
Quote from: snyprrr on September 07, 2017, 05:30:47 AM
So, I had a very positive experience with No.6 this time, but that is only because I only heard the music. I didn't even "hear" that 'Song of Freedom', it all sounded to me like a dodecaphonic(?) Villa-Lobos on Hunter Thompson's drug regime! ;)
What's not to like? ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on September 07, 2017, 05:30:47 AM
Symphony No.6 (1969)...
So, I had a very positive experience ...
Oh, so the preceding was
NOT ironic! 8) ;) Glad to know that you found it of interest! I will probably give it another shot to see if I like it better.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 07, 2017, 05:30:47 AM
it all sounded to me like a dodecaphonic(?) Villa-Lobos on Hunter Thompson's drug regime! ;)
I believe it is more "caphonic" than "dode" ! 0:)
Soon,
Symphony I, and then I will look into the later symphonies:
VIII and
IX I have never heard.
Quote from: Cato on September 07, 2017, 06:32:56 AM
Soon, Symphony I, and then I will look into the later symphonies: VIII and IX I have never heard.
IX is kind of a mess, reminds me of the 6th but with a choir
dont forget X though!
This is a little gem
https://www.youtube.com/v/Iyn3_ecxhb0
Quote from: Cato on September 07, 2017, 06:32:56 AM
Soon, Symphony I, and then I will look into the later symphonies: VIII and IX I have never heard.
So upon re-revisiting the
First Symphony, my impressions are: at times interesting, e.g. the opening, which sounds like
Debussy after a visit to
Schoenberg's house in Vienna! A pastoral atmosphere is established, although it will not last. The music meanders a bit in the later part of the first movement, but toward the end regains focus. The second movement has some nice solo writing. The last movement has a kind of stretto with comments from the pastoral atmosphere heard at the beginning. The last minutes contain a good deal of
hin und her and then everything fades away.
Okay, the Seventh Symphony I have now heard twice recently: the opening movement, marked Tanz (Dance) almost instantly reminded me of the Robert Browning Overture of Charles Ives, which of course is not a bad association! 8) The slow movement is rather mysterious and seems to yearn for a Brucknerian expression of anguish at one point. The Scherzo I found to be a return to the Sixth Symphony, a dense mass of sounds, but perhaps a little more interesting. The Finale opens with a kind of "space music" ??? which eventually builds to several dramatic peaks (Ligeti might come to mind now and then). The dense textures are thinned out in general, the dissonance is a little less strident, until the last bars: and then everything breaks off.
I liked it better the second time, so give this work a chance!
Quote from: Cato on September 21, 2017, 03:57:26 AM
Okay, the Seventh Symphony I have now heard twice recently: the opening movement, marked Tanz (Dance) almost instantly reminded of the Robert Browning Overture of Charles Ives, which of course is not a bad association! 8) The slow movement is rather mysterious and seems to yearn for a Brucknerian expression of anguish at one point. The Scherzo I found to be a return to the Sixth Symphony, a dense mass of sounds, but perhaps a little more interesting. The Finale opens with a kind of "space music" ??? which eventually builds to several dramatic peaks (Ligeti might come to mind now and then). The dense textures are thinned out in general, the dissonance is a little less strident, until the last bars: and then everything breaks off.
I liked it better the second time, so give this work a chance!
The No. 7 is probably my favorite of his. Perhaps because of the slow gradual build up in the last movement "spacey" music which I find quite dramatic and effective. I also find this to be one of his most accessible symphonies. In truth, I don't think any of his symphonies are difficult - some just don't keep my attention but overall they are quite good, colorful, dramatic, and frequently inventive.
Quote from: relm1 on September 21, 2017, 06:07:45 AM
The No. 7 is probably my favorite of his. Perhaps because of the slow gradual build up in the last movement "spacey" music which I find quite dramatic and effective. I also find this to be one of his most accessible symphonies. In truth, I don't think any of his symphonies are difficult - some just don't keep my attention but overall they are quite good, colorful, dramatic, and frequently inventive.
I will admit the same thing happened to me: loss of attention, perhaps because the music does not "move" at times. When I think of e.g.
Charles Wuorinen's Grand Bamboula, a 12-tone work (a la
Wuorinen ;) ), I think of a work that
moves at various speeds. Is it "noisy" and dense at times? Yes, but it goes somewhere. As I write, I am beginning to think that a static nature in at least some of
Henze's notes may cause that loss of attention.
Quote from: Cato on September 07, 2017, 06:32:56 AM
I believe it is more "caphonic" than "dode" ! 0:)
yes,... noisy as fffffffuuuu...
You make 7 sound ok. I remember not liking the Rattle when it came out. I guess, try again...
CATO- did you see my "Concertos" Post above?
Quote from: snyprrr on September 22, 2017, 07:58:58 AM
yes,... noisy as fffffffuuuu...
You make 7 sound ok. I remember not liking the Rattle when it came out. I guess, try again...
CATO- did you see my "Concertos" Post above?
Ears change! ;)
And yes to the concertos, but I will need to work on some of those next week! 0:)
Quote from: Cato on September 22, 2017, 08:03:44 AM
Ears change! ;)
And yes to the concertos, but I will need to work on some of those next week! 0:)
On a Henze tear all of a sudden. Some quick notes from sampling:
1) Double Concerto: written for the Holligers, hey, quite the AvantGarde piece!! HIGHLY RECOMMENDED for its cool '60s
sounds,... sounds like Lutoslawski??
2) Violin Concerto No.1: early, I wasn't impressed AT ALL.
3) Violin Concerto No.2 (1971): COOL AS f***. This is about as groovy as Henze gets? Many should like.GREAT
4) Piano Concerto No.2 (1967): pretty impressive large scale, 20th century Brahms? RECOMMENDED.
5) 'Tristan': for piano, tape, and orchestra... NOISY AS F&&&...like Nono?... I was like "eh"... but formidable.
6) Fantasia for Strings: from the 'Exorcist'. Henze's serious Neo-Classicism. I like.
7) 'The Raft of the Medusa': too AvantGarde for me at the moment.
8) 'The Bassiards': ORESTEIA... hey, this one sounds pretty cool. Check it out. His BigClassic apparently.
9) Symphony 7: yea, ... 1st mvmt.,... this is about as serious and "dreary" as I recall. I like it better now, but it's still a pretty
rough slog for me,... serious serious serious... I'll return...
Still plowing through the field here:
Piano Concerto No.1- I enjoyed much more than VC1, very BAZimmermann.
Ode to the Westwind- Cello Concerto, also enjoyed, sounded like early BAZ.
Double Bass Concerto- also enjoyable
El Cimmaron- yes, very Avant, and sort of enjoyable, but only in an Avant way for me.
Barcarola- ok, very dark and dreary, I seem to remember the feeling from when the CD came out. Still a bit dreary and
anonymous for me,... I'll try back...
Nachstucke und Arien (1958)- a vocal work that I actually liked!! still Expressionistic...
I listened to Henze's Symphony no. 8 a while ago and remember enjoying it quite a bit - it's time I explore more of his output...
Quote from: kyjo on September 29, 2017, 08:17:47 AM
I listened to Henze's Symphony no. 8 a while ago and remember enjoying it quite a bit - it's time I explore more of his output...
I should put 8-10 on the que...
Try working backwards from his Last Works,...
I AM getting the impression that Henze maaay be a bit of a @PrimaDonna,... don't know why Tippett would come to mind,... but HWH certainly has an all encompassing interest. For some reason, I don't think of him as "political", just an uber elite, comfy wunderkind poofy diva, somewhat typical. BUT, I am enjoying hearing many works.
LATEST:
In memoriam: La weisse Rose (1964): Expressionistic, ok,... mm,... not my fav
La Vitalo Raddiodoppio(??1977): a chaconne Violin Concerto, EVERYONE SHOULD LIKE THIS.
La selvia incantata: "enchanted forest"- late music, atmospheric, people should like, He's writing "normal, good" music here.
I don't think Hans was all that enthusiastic about badminton
https://www.youtube.com/v/4G-aWqfQu8Y
And I heard somewhere that he fell out with Julian over his not playing the last of the Second Royal Winter Music sonatas
Back after a long absence, I cast eyes on this thread. My first thought is, Oh, I really like his film music on record,e.g.Swann In Love, Amour à Mort or Muriel. Of the operas I have seen, I best liked Boulevard Solitude (a gorgeous score), Die Bassariden - which blows me away on disc too - and The Sailor...Sea (otherwise known as Eiko something in the Japanese version) - I haven't heard a recording; his last opera, Phaedra, was premiered in Berlin, and I was so blown away that I went again, very unusual for me, seeing as how I'm always out of pocket*. I used to like the original (Atherton) recording of Voices on LP a lot, then I found it a bit obvious in places, not to say corny. My LPs and a lot of my CDs are in The Other Place, who knows if I shall ever see them again. I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled. Q: Why doesn't somebody set that wonderful poem to music? *Please send a small contribution, guv.
Having heard I think most all of the recordings of Henze's guitar music, this is my favorite:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GlzOlU4WL._SY355_.jpg)
Quote from: bwv 1080 on October 31, 2017, 05:53:04 AM
Having heard I think most all of the recordings of Henze's guitar music, this is my favorite:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GlzOlU4WL._SY355_.jpg)
That's the only one I own, it's very good indeed.
Tutto Henze from DGG, on sale at JPC:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Hans-Werner-Henze-1926-2012-Hans-Werner-Henze-The-Complete-Deutsche-Grammophon-Recordings/hnum/1751393 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Hans-Werner-Henze-1926-2012-Hans-Werner-Henze-The-Complete-Deutsche-Grammophon-Recordings/hnum/1751393)
(https://media3.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028947915225.jpg)
Quote from: André on January 26, 2018, 02:29:12 PM
Tutto Henze from DGG, on sale at JPC:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Hans-Werner-Henze-1926-2012-Hans-Werner-Henze-The-Complete-Deutsche-Grammophon-Recordings/hnum/1751393 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Hans-Werner-Henze-1926-2012-Hans-Werner-Henze-The-Complete-Deutsche-Grammophon-Recordings/hnum/1751393)
(https://media3.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028947915225.jpg)
[/quote
also $60 on Ebay
I'm having a Poulenc VS Henze dilemma going on, as per getting BigBoxes...
Here is the Carillion from Carillion, Recitativ, Masque arranged for a music box
https://www.youtube.com/v/k8J2I0G5UmE
and the original
https://www.youtube.com/v/J9Pd4d5pdZA
I think it is interesting that a premiere performance seems so approachable. I think this sounds so wonderful and approachable for a complex work. At 7:52, to me, it sounds quite a bit like something from Havergal Brian. What do you all think? This is kind of English/Italian version of Germanic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwKp6hlLg5U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwKp6hlLg5U)
Quote from: relm1 on November 22, 2021, 04:38:47 PM
I think it is interesting that a premiere performance seems so approachable. I think this sounds so wonderful and approachable for a complex work. At 7:52, to me, it sounds quite a bit like something from Havergal Brian. What do you all think? This is kind of English/Italian version of Germanic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwKp6hlLg5U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwKp6hlLg5U)
I think Henze is a fascinating composer and there are some remarkable works in his oeuvre. His numbered symphonies being particularly noteworthy. It seems, and I've said this before, that he was one of classical music's great chameleons in that there wasn't a genre that he couldn't write well in --- orchestral, ballet, chamber, lieder, operas, etc., but also he wrote effortlessly in many styles: Neo-Romantic, 12-tone, Neoclassical et. al. I recall the 7th being quite good. I should plan a revisit.
Picked up the first 6 of Henze's symphonies on Brilliant Classics, conducted by the composer. Really enjoying them so far thru the first 3. Hartmannic/Hartmannian if ever I heard it!
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 30, 2022, 03:06:17 AM
Picked up the first 6 of Henze's symphonies on Brilliant Classics, conducted by the composer. Really enjoying them so far thru the first 3. Hartmannic/Hartmannian if ever I heard it!
Yes, I quite like his symphonies. Undine is also very good. I prefer his more opulent and romantic style but also enjoy Die Bassariden and it's associated symphonic suite which falls in to the opulent category. A fine composer.
Henze is an excellent composer and I rather enjoy the chameleon-like nature of his style. You never know quite what you're going to get stylistically and it keeps one on their toes.
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 30, 2022, 03:06:17 AM
Picked up the first 6 of Henze's symphonies on Brilliant Classics, conducted by the composer. Really enjoying them so far thru the first 3. Hartmannic/Hartmannian if ever I heard it!
Yes and no. His style changed quite often, but, overall, I would say the earlier symphonies are closer to Hartmann's style, but he quickly found his own voice or, in his case, voices.
Hartmann and Henze together:
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UTWPUdcQiCY/VA1RmZ7wg1I/AAAAAAAAJoY/AbVLod808fY/s1600/Hartmann%2Bund%2BHenze.jpg)
Quick run through Henze's symphonies seems in order. First six through the DG Henze Collection box set.
I had forgotten how much I like these first couple of symphonies. They have meat on their bones and are a surprisingly easy listen late at night. Nothing like a sense of drama to go with the darker hours...
I always enjoyed the first four of Henze's symphonies, but less so the 5th. The later ones I've never heard, since I only bought the box set of the first 5 on DG that was released before he had composed the later ones.
Hard to believe he's actually gone now - actually, for over 10 years. :(
Quote from: krummholz on March 10, 2023, 08:00:18 AMI always enjoyed the first four of Henze's symphonies, but less so the 5th. The later ones I've never heard, since I only bought the box set of the first 5 on DG that was released before he had composed the later ones.
Hard to believe he's actually gone now - actually, for over 10 years. :(
Am just coming to the end of 4 now. I also don't know the later symphonies well- 7 and 8, I like, but this is a good opportunity to revisit, refamiliarise and discover all at once. There is nothing ethereal or ephemeral about these works - weighty, thoughtful compositions, all. Much to chew on.
Quote from: krummholz on March 10, 2023, 08:00:18 AMI always enjoyed the first four of Henze's symphonies, but less so the 5th. The later ones I've never heard, since I only bought the box set of the first 5 on DG that was released before he had composed the later ones.
Hard to believe he's actually gone now - actually, for over 10 years. :(
I'm surprised you didn't connect with 5. I don't know it well but can see the potential for appreciation. If you'd said that it was 6 that didn't hold your interest, I would get it. That's not fun, that isn't, and I like Peter Maxwell Davies.
Hard work.
Quote from: foxandpeng on March 11, 2023, 05:33:08 AMI'm surprised you didn't connect with 5. I don't know it well but can see the potential for appreciation. If you'd said that it was 6 that didn't hold your interest, I would get it. That's not fun, that isn't, and I like Peter Maxwell Davies.
Hard work.
Hard to say why - and it was a LONG time ago (decades), so I might find my reaction completely different today. I no longer have the album - got rid of my old LPs when I moved here, as I have nothing to play them on and they were just taking up space.
(I know, that's sacrilege to vinyl devotees... but I had to jettison a LOT of stuff to be able to afford to live out here, by hiring a property management company to rent out my condo. No way could I afford a house or even a condo in this part of the country. I have basically no extra space here now.)
Sorry for the TMI...
Quote from: krummholz on March 11, 2023, 05:59:54 PMHard to say why - and it was a LONG time ago (decades), so I might find my reaction completely different today. I no longer have the album - got rid of my old LPs when I moved here, as I have nothing to play them on and they were just taking up space.
(I know, that's sacrilege to vinyl devotees... but I had to jettison a LOT of stuff to be able to afford to live out here, by hiring a property management company to rent out my condo. No way could I afford a house or even a condo in this part of the country. I have basically no extra space here now.)
Sorry for the TMI...
I'm going to have another run at 5 and 6 today, once I wake up a bit. I'm starting gently this morning with Ives 1-3, as Henze may just be a little challenging yet. Hoping 6 might feel less like root canal treatment on this pass.
I did exactly the same with my cd collection some years ago. A great shame, but space matters. I can't bear to do the same with books, but moving to digital media has been great. Everything via my phone, through my headphones or Sonos speakers. No looking back.
Don't apologise for the info - good to have the background :-)
Henze is a hit or miss composer, symphonies 1-5 I love, 6-10 I don't care about.
Which matches overall - probably 20% of his output I really love, 40% I am indifferent to and 20% is just plain bad.
Bottom line - if you have heard one Henze piece, you have heard one Henze piece
This vid from Hurwitz gives an idea of the personality here - the dedicated communist who lived most of his life like a lord in an Italian villa