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The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

Title: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM
It isn't right that Ralph has had to wait all this while for his own thread.

Still making my way through the Handley box, but the Romanza (Lento) from the Fifth Symphony, especially, was so utterly, spine-tingling ravishing, I had to repeat it.

Recent performances here in Boston of the Sixth Symphony and the Tallis Fantasia were particular highlights of the season, from this senator's standpoint.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MishaK on April 12, 2007, 06:40:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM
Recent performances here in Boston of the Sixth Symphony and the Tallis Fantasia were particular highlights of the season, from this senator's standpoint.

I wish someone would program RVW in my neck of the woods! I don't understand why Nos. 4 & 7 in particular aren't preformed more often.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 06:44:04 AM
Must be trouble finding a wind machine for No. 7  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Hector on April 12, 2007, 06:54:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 06:44:04 AM
Must be trouble finding a wind machine for No. 7  ;D

Especially now there's Global Warming!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2007, 07:09:38 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 12, 2007, 06:40:04 AM
I wish someone would program RVW in my neck of the woods! I don't understand why Nos. 4 & 7 in particular aren't preformed more often.

O, you'll have to plan a trip to Stuttgart this June: Norrington has the Fourth programmed along with the Elgar Violin Concerto (Hilary Hahn).

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MishaK on April 12, 2007, 07:17:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2007, 07:09:38 AM
O, you'll have to plan a trip to Stuttgart this June: Norrington has the Fourth programmed along with the Elgar Violin Concerto (Hilary Hahn).

If I didn't have a violent allergy to everything Norrington does, I would consider it, if only to hear Hahn. She did a marvellous Goldmark here two weeks ago with the CSO, capped by an encore performance of a solo violin transcription of Schubert's Erlkönig. BTW, that reminds me, you still owe us a full acount of your trip to Berlin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 07:20:53 AM
That is a terrific concert program . . . I admit, I mentally added a question mark to the conductor's name :-)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Harry on April 12, 2007, 09:15:28 AM
Still waiting for me to be heard is the complete set with Haitink on EMI.
I should start with that soon I guess! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MishaK on April 12, 2007, 09:23:51 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 12, 2007, 09:15:28 AM
Still waiting for me to be heard is the complete set with Haitink on EMI.
I should start with that soon I guess! :)

It's a great one. I just got that recently. Best Antartica without narration.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Harry on April 12, 2007, 09:33:47 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 12, 2007, 09:23:51 AM
It's a great one. I just got that recently. Best Antartica without narration.

You are kidding me right?
Are you saying its without this irritating narration?
Then indeed it is a great one.
Heard some fragments from the 5th & 6th symphonies.
Awesome!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MishaK on April 12, 2007, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 12, 2007, 09:33:47 AM
You are kidding me right?
Are you saying its without this irritating narration?
Then indeed it is a great one.
Heard some fragments from the 5th & 6th symphonies.
Awesome!

Yes, Haitink's Antartica is without narration. Boult has the traditionally used poems that RVW put in the original score. Leppard (Indianapolis SO) has a very fine recording with an alternative narration of excerpts from Scott's diaries, which I think works better. Allegedly, Leppard discussed this idea with RVW personally.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Harry on April 12, 2007, 09:49:01 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 12, 2007, 09:38:15 AM
Yes, Haitink's Antartica is without narration. Boult has the traditionally used poems that RVW put in the original score. Leppard (Indianapolis SO) has a very fine recording with an alternative narration of excerpts from Scott's diaries, which I think works better. Allegedly, Leppard discussed this idea with RVW personally.

Well I will give it a spin tonight.
Thanks for this wonderful news.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 10:15:43 AM
The only Haitink I've heard is the Pastoral and the Fourth, and it is mighty good.

The superscripts to the five movements of the Sinfonia antartica are entirely absent from the Handley.  They are included on the Kees Bakels disc, but clumped together at the end, so they are easily avoided  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: BachQ on April 12, 2007, 10:22:18 AM
My fave is No. 8 in d minor . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 10:22:47 AM
(That was unexpected)

:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on April 12, 2007, 12:29:17 PM
I mentioned it in another thread - but I invite you all to Antwerp for :

Vaughan Williams Symfonie nr. 1, 'A sea symphony'

Thursday 26 april 2007 | 19:45 | Open Repetition | Filharmonisch Huis

Vrijdag 27 april 2007 | 20:00 | Koningin Elisabethzaal

Soile Isokoski – sopraan | David Wilson-Johnson – bariton | Philippe Herreweghe – dirigent

deFilharmonie | KoorAcademie | Huddersfield Choral Society

This could be a very interesting start . I wasntable to find out if Herreweghe has plans to perform more RVW..!?



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MishaK on April 12, 2007, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: pjme on April 12, 2007, 12:29:17 PM
I mentioned it in another thread - but I invite you all to Antwerp for :

Vaughan Williams Symfonie nr. 1, 'A sea symphony'

Thursday 26 april 2007 | 19:45 | Open Repetition | Filharmonisch Huis

Vrijdag 27 april 2007 | 20:00 | Koningin Elisabethzaal

Soile Isokoski – sopraan | David Wilson-Johnson – bariton | Philippe Herreweghe – dirigent

deFilharmonie | KoorAcademie | Huddersfield Choral Society

This could be a very interesting start . I wasntable to find out if Herreweghe has plans to perform more RVW..!?

That sounds fantastic! Soile Isokoski is superb. I heard her do Sibelius and Mozart with Colin Davis/NYPO last year and Beethoven 9 with Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin. Her disc of Sibelius songs is a gem.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2007, 01:28:28 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 12, 2007, 07:17:29 AM
If I didn't have a violent allergy to everything Norrington does, I would consider it, if only to hear Hahn.... BTW, you still owe us a full acount of your trip to Berlin.

Quote from: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 07:20:53 AM
That is a terrific concert program . . . I admit, I mentally added a question mark to the conductor's name :-)

Karl, O, I'm of two minds about Norrington: I love his HIP Beethoven and Berlioz but haven't been thrilled by much else he's done, including his RVW cycle (2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 recorded so far, I believe). I bought the first installment (3 & 5), wasn't impressed (too fast and very cold, unemotional) and have avoided the rest. Still, it's not often one has a chance to hear RVW live in Germany and I'm not going to miss this. But, yeah, the big draw for me is Hahn.

Sarge

P.S. I'll probably write up the Berlin trip, and post some pics, tomorrow. I'm not feeling up to it now. I've been fighting a cold; I feel lethargic and mentally out of it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MishaK on April 12, 2007, 01:37:29 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2007, 01:28:28 PM
Karl, O, I'm of two minds about Norrington: I love his ... Berlioz

Really? I find it execrable.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2007, 01:40:14 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 12, 2007, 01:37:29 PM
Really?...

Really...

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Robert on April 12, 2007, 01:47:31 PM


I love all the Handley,and Previn. The  Bakels (7th) Boult 9 (everest)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2007, 02:17:02 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 10:15:43 AM
The only Haitink I've heard is the Pastoral and the Fourth, and it is mighty good.

Haitink's Seventh is magnificent, too; it's arguably the greatest recording ever of this fascinating piece. It deserved that Gramophone award (best orchestral record of 1986).

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Robert on April 12, 2007, 02:30:28 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2007, 02:17:02 PM
Haitink's Seventh is magnificent, too; it's arguably the greatest recording ever of this fascinating piece. It deserved that Gramophone award (best orchestral record of 1986).

Sarge
Sarge,
I do not own any Haitinks VW. I cannot say its the greatest recording..I will have to listen for it as the seventh is one of my favs.....On the other hand, I  do not put much credibility into anything gramophone recommends...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2007, 02:40:59 PM
Quote from: Robert on April 12, 2007, 02:30:28 PM
Sarge,
I do not own any Haitinks VW. I cannot say its the greatest recording..I will have to listen for it as the seventh is one of my favs.....On the other hand, I  do not put much credibility into anything gramophone recommends...

I don't either (if you don't know my history, I'll tell you: I'm one of the Gramophone bashers ;D )...but I have to say, when they're right, they're right.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Harry on April 12, 2007, 10:36:36 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2007, 02:17:02 PM
Haitink's Seventh is magnificent, too; it's arguably the greatest recording ever of this fascinating piece. It deserved that Gramophone award (best orchestral record of 1986).

Sarge

I think I bought a good set! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on April 14, 2007, 10:22:00 AM
Haitink: indeed a great set and as I remember a cheap buy, in the Netherlands, that is. But I caný say that Bernard beats Vernon Handley's set (EMI Eminence).

X
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Harry on April 14, 2007, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: XXXPawn on April 14, 2007, 10:22:00 AM
Haitink: indeed a great set and as I remember a cheap buy, in the Netherlands, that is. But I caný say that Bernard beats Vernon Handley's set (EMI Eminence).

X

It is a totally different approach, and it is good to have them both, instead of comparing. They can live happily together. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on April 14, 2007, 10:38:20 AM
Right you are!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 14, 2007, 11:18:48 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 12, 2007, 09:38:15 AM
Yes, Haitink's Antartica is without narration. Boult has the traditionally used poems that RVW put in the original score. Leppard (Indianapolis SO) has a very fine recording with an alternative narration of excerpts from Scott's diaries, which I think works better. Allegedly, Leppard discussed this idea with RVW personally.

Boult's EMI version of No 7 does not contain the spoken superscriptions before the music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MishaK on April 15, 2007, 06:28:26 PM
Quote from: Captain Haddock on April 14, 2007, 11:18:48 PM
Boult's EMI version of No 7 does not contain the spoken superscriptions before the music.

The Boult Decca recording (the only one I have) has Gielgud reciting the poems.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 16, 2007, 02:59:39 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 15, 2007, 06:28:26 PM
The Boult Decca recording (the only one I have) has Gielgud reciting the poems.

Yes, but Boult dispenses with them in the later recording on EMI.

Handley's recording of No 9 has the best harps at the end...a great moment, which I find very moving.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: tjguitar on April 16, 2007, 01:49:28 PM
Besides the 3 Chandos film music CDs, I only have:


(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/VaughanW_completeCFP.jpg)

I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, but what I like about the packaging of this box is that all the cd's are in individual jewel cases instead of sleeves in a box that most seem to be released in these days.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Don on April 16, 2007, 01:51:32 PM
Quote from: tjguitar on April 16, 2007, 01:49:28 PM
Besides the 3 Chandos film music CDs, I only have:


(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/VaughanW_completeCFP.jpg)

I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, but what I like about the packaging of this box is that all the cd's are in individual jewel cases instead of sleeves in a box that most seem to be released in these days.

Wouldn't that make for a very wide box that wastes storage space?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: tjguitar on April 16, 2007, 01:55:55 PM
Quote from: Don on April 16, 2007, 01:51:32 PM
Wouldn't that make for a very wide box that wastes storage space?

Well you don't really need the box as all the jewel cases have front and back liner notes of their own....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on April 16, 2007, 02:36:24 PM
Which is the best RVW?

ALL OF IT!  ;D

Well I am partial to the 8th, which is my favorite piece of music of all time.

As far as his obscure music is concerned,
The Romance for Harmonica, Strings and Piano is excellent, I love his String Partitia, His Piano Concerto, his Oboe Concerto, His Tuba Concerto, all excellent!

There is something about his modal use, his distinct sense of rhythms through the symphonies, his undying passion for folk music, and his sense of classicism that makes his music really stick out to me.

One of my favorite quotes from Vaughan Williams Studies by Alain Frogley is "the counterbalancing belief in things of the spirit," which is one of the themes presumed to be found in all Vaughan Williams' symphonies. This I believed is really capped in the 8th symphony.

Currently I am reading Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion by Wilfrid Mellers.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on April 16, 2007, 03:27:52 PM
Another little Gem I found today...

Vaughan Williams' The Death of Tintagiles based on a play by Maurice Maeterlinck of the same name (La Mort de Tintagiles)

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/280/285960.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 18, 2007, 05:14:49 AM
Well, it is official:  I like A London Symphony, which means that I now like all the set of nine.  Not sure who the performers were in the recording I heard a couple of years ago.

So, with this favorable acquaintance with No. 2, and the love-at-first-hearing audition of Job, I feel that the Handley set has done its work.  Yet more than that, though, the recordings of Nos. 7, 8 & 9 in this set are even better than the Bakels Naxos recordings, which first 'sold' me on those pieces.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 18, 2007, 05:15:28 AM
Quote from: btpaul674 on April 16, 2007, 03:27:52 PM
Vaughan Williams' The Death of Tintagiles based on a play by Maurice Maeterlinck of the same name (La Mort de Tintagiles)

Dang! Maeterlinck strikes again!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Harry on April 18, 2007, 06:23:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 18, 2007, 05:14:49 AM
Well, it is official:  I like A London Symphony, which means that I now like all the set of nine.  Not sure who the performers were in the recording I heard a couple of years ago.

So, with this favorable acquaintance with No. 2, and the love-at-first-hearing audition of Job, I feel that the Handley set has done its work.  Yet more than that, though, the recordings of Nos. 7, 8 & 9 in this set are even better than the Bakels Naxos recordings, which first 'sold' me on those pieces.

That makes me really glad mijn vriend! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 18, 2007, 11:25:25 AM
Probably the next Vaughan Williams 'blindspot' I need to attend to is the Mass in G Minor.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Harry on April 18, 2007, 11:29:00 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 18, 2007, 11:25:25 AM
Probably the next Vaughan Williams 'blindspot' I need to attend to is the Mass in G Minor.

Well the Mass will never pose a problem to me! ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 19, 2007, 12:04:15 AM
Quote from: btpaul674 on April 16, 2007, 02:36:24 PM
Which is the best RVW? ALL OF IT!  ;D  Well I am partial to the 8th, which is my favorite piece of music of all time.

As far as his obscure music is concerned, The Romance for Harmonica, Strings and Piano is excellent, I love his String Partitia, His Piano Concerto, his Oboe Concerto, His Tuba Concerto, all excellent!

There is something about his modal use, his distinct sense of rhythms through the symphonies, his undying passion for folk music, and his sense of classicism that makes his music really stick out to me. One of my favorite quotes from Vaughan Williams Studies by Alain Frogley is "the counterbalancing belief in things of the spirit," which is one of the themes presumed to be found in all Vaughan Williams' symphonies. This I believed is really capped in the 8th symphony. Currently I am reading Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion by Wilfrid Mellers.

Well, having lived now with RVW's music since I was about 13, 14 years old -- I can say that your, always, final verdict comes rather close to mine. I happen to have read Wilfred Meller's study on RVW and think his is one of the more original approaches to the music, the man and his times. (Can't think of a broader statement :-).

As to the symphonies, my special preference always switched between nos. 3, 5, 6, 8 and 9, also depending on the performance, of course. But again: it used to be no. 8 for a long time, especially for the sake of its first movement.

Lesser known pieces that are of my liking include all you mention, especially the Partita, but also the Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus (a sort of later, much more subdued, Tallis Fantasia revisited), the Poisoned Kiss overture, the Oxford Elegy, and even the Variations for Brass Band - to mention at random a few other pieces.

As to the late (1957 I think) Variations for Brass Band: I rather dislike the orchestration Gordon Jacob made of it, but am fond of it in it's orignal, more powerful version. I often read people hold it in a low esteem - but I cannot be the only one to think otherwise?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 19, 2007, 04:15:37 AM
Quote from: Christo on April 19, 2007, 12:04:15 AM
Lesser known pieces that are of my liking include all you mention, especially the Partita, but also the Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus (a sort of later, much more subdued, Tallis Fantasia revisited), the Poisoned Kiss overture, the Oxford Elegy, and even the Variations for Brass Band - to mention at random a few other pieces.

As to the late (1957 I think) Variations for Brass Band: I rather dislike the orchestration Gordon Jacob made of it, but am fond of it in it's orignal, more powerful version. I often read people hold it in a low esteem - but I cannot be the only one to think otherwise?

Thanks for reminding me of this 'un!  It is on an Eastman Wind Ensemble disc which (actually) I picked up for both the Hindemith Konzertmusik for winds (Opus 41) and the Husa Music for Prague 1968.

Curiously, this credits the scoring to E.W.E. director Don Hunsberger . . . wonder where it needed to vary from the Ur-text . . . ?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 19, 2007, 04:18:27 AM
"Epithalamion" is my favourite lesser-known work by Vaughan Williams.  A late work of great beauty:

The CD below is an interesting and unusual coupling

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Oxford-Elegy-Epithalamion/dp/B0000057ZP/ref=sr_1_2/026-5773581-7374844?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176984931&sr=1-2

There is an even finer EMI version (with "Riders to the Sea") but it seems to be out of print and very expensive on Amazon UK, hence the link to this one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 19, 2007, 04:48:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2007, 04:15:37 AM
Thanks for reminding me of this 'un!  It is on an Eastman Wind Ensemble disc which (actually) I picked up for both the Hindemith Konzertmusik for winds (Opus 41) and the Husa Music for Prague 1968.
Curiously, this credits the scoring to E.W.E. director Don Hunsberger . . . wonder where it needed to vary from the Ur-text . . . ?

The question is easily solved, I would say. I have the record you mention in my player; my edition starting with the Toccata Marziale from 1924 that is the origin of a central musical idea from the first movement of the Sixth Symphony btw.

The booklet calls the RVW piece the "Variations for Wind Band" - Winds instead of just a Brass Band. Wasn't it especially brass bands the English got so well accustumed with thanks to a.o. their Mining Districts and the Salvation Army?

Anyhow, the E.W.E. director Donald Hunsberger is conducting a couple of wind instruments too, in his version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 19, 2007, 04:55:29 AM
Of course!  More coffee is needed, here in New England!  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 19, 2007, 05:20:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2007, 04:55:29 AM
Of course!  More coffee is needed, here in New England!  ;)

What? Don't you grow coffee there, in your colonies? But what do you grow there, then, in your plantations :-) ?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 19, 2007, 05:32:26 AM
All the coffee we grow in Massachusetts is for export  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 19, 2007, 06:16:30 AM
BTW: one of my other favorites being - the Mass. I hope you will be trying it again. And talking about personal RVW favorites: I would also add the Three Portraits from The England of Elisabeth, especially as conducted by Andre Previn, and also Flos Campi (there are many fine versions of it available).

(But then: there's very little RVW that I'm not fond of. The only pieces that come to mind are the Sea Symphony, that I like but not love, and some of the songs. (Also, I don't think that much of his film music is thát special, even if I adore the England of Elisabeth music.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on April 19, 2007, 06:17:44 AM
The brass band I play in is going to perform his Henry the Fifth Overture, which was originally written for brass band.  It is an awesome piece; I just wish we could play it well enough to do it justice.

Brass bands are huge in Britain, mainly centered around mining and farming communities as bands of the 'working' class.  The traditional literature is marches and other short pieces, but in the middle of the century, composers started writing symphonic literature for them.  Now there is a huge repertoire, mainly from British composers, of many great symphonic pieces.  Brass bands have a very strict orchestration. They only use cornets, alto horns, and flugal horns.  No trumpets or french horns allowed.  Additionally, there are baritones, euphonium, trombones, Eb tuba (my instrument), and BBb tuba.  The requirement is that all the instruments have a conical bore, which leads to a very specific sound.  For me its one of the best sounds in the world ;).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 19, 2007, 06:24:27 AM
Quote from: Catison on April 19, 2007, 06:17:44 AM
The brass band I play in is going to perform his Henry the Fifth Overture, which was originally written for brass band.  It is an awesome piece; I just wish we could play it well enough to do it justice.

Interesting piece! It used to be left out of all the 'official' RVW lists of compositions, and I only heard it accidentally, 25 years ago, in some (Swedish?) recording. But I still remember I couldn't find a trace about it in some of the then available books on RVW.

There must be one or two recordings by now. Michael Kennedy lists it as an 'Overture for brass band' in his Catalogue of the Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams as having received its first performance only in 1979, by the University of Miami Wind Ensemble under Frederick Fennell, and having been published only as late as 1981. One of those ''early'' performances must have been the one I heard in those days.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on April 19, 2007, 06:31:35 AM
Quote from: Christo on April 19, 2007, 06:24:27 AM
Interesting piece! It used to be left out of all the 'official' RVW lists of compositions, and I only heard it accidentally, 25 years ago, in some (Swedish?) recording. But I still remember I couldn't find a trace about it in some of the then available books on RVW.

There must be one or two recordings by now. Michael Kennedy lists it as an 'Overture for brass band' in his Catalogue of the Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams as having received its first performance only in 1979, by the University of Miami Wind Ensemble under Frederick Fennell, and having been published only as late as 1981. One of those ''early'' performances must have been the one I heard in those days.

If you want  a good recording, this classic from Grimthorpe is the best way to go.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/509/5091205.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=10464)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2007, 11:41:50 PM
Quote from: Christo on April 19, 2007, 06:16:30 AM
BTW: one of my other favorites being - the Mass. I hope you will be trying it again. And talking about personal RVW favorites: I would also add the Three Portraits from The England of Elisabeth, especially as conducted by Andre Previn, and also Flos Campi (there are many fine versions of it available).

(But then: there's very little RVW that I'm not fond of. The only pieces that come to mind are the Sea Symphony, that I like but not love, and some of the songs. (Also, I don't think that much of his film music is thát special, even if I adore the England of Elisabeth music.)

You are right. The England of Elizabeth is best heard in the Previn version. I actually saw the documentary film for which it was written (typical of its time, 1950s) when they showed in at the Barbican in London before Hickox performed the first ever performance of the 1913 version of A London Symphony for c 90 years!

A Sea Symphony is also my least favourite VW symphony although I have come to appreciate it more over time. The "Concerto Accademico", "Partita" and Suite for Viola are other works that don't really grab me the way that much of VW does.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 21, 2007, 04:21:42 AM
Quote from: Captain Haddock on April 20, 2007, 11:41:50 PM
You are right. The England of Elizabeth is best heard in the Previn version. I actually saw the documentary film for which it was written (typical of its time, 1950s) when they showed in at the Barbican in London before Hickox performed the first ever performance of the 1913 version of A London Symphony for c 90 years!

What about the other extracts from The England of Elizabeth Muir Mathieson (if I spell his name correctly) did take from them? Have they been recorded, and are they somehow available too?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Greta on April 21, 2007, 10:34:53 AM
This is highly recommended:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000000AUB.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V44977733_AA240_.jpg)

Superb sound, elegant and sprightly performances, a great collection from Chandos. The concertos are so fun, that Piano Concerto is wonderful, don't know how it stayed off my radar for so long. All fine pieces.

I'm partial to the Violin Concerto and The Lark Ascending, I didn't really become familiar with them until discovered a favorite film score of mine, The Village by James Newton Howard, was strongly influenced by these. Hilary Hahn recorded that score and her Lark Ascending CD back to back, not sure of the timeline but there may have been some connection there. Indeed a strong similarity, poignant singing violin writing, except the Howard score is more mournful. Really one of the better ones to come out of Hollywood in a long time.

I like Vaughan Williams a lot but need to become more familiar with his symphonies. He's my uncle's favorite composer, so he educates me when he's over. :) His favorite piece ever is Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis and he's dying to hear it live, but not much Vaughan Williams is done performed around here, unfortunately.

QuoteBrass bands have a very strict orchestration. They only use cornets, alto horns, and flugal horns.  No trumpets or french horns allowed.  Additionally, there are baritones, euphonium, trombones, Eb tuba (my instrument), and BBb tuba.

Brett, I have friends in Europe who play in brass bands, and it is a wonderful sound, I have some of their recordings, and the arrangers over there are do some really nice things with well-known classical pieces. One of my favorites is the Black Dyke Band, technically astonishing.

A Dutch friend also plays in a "fanfare band", I didn't realize it was a separate entity but it's quite interesting actually, basically a brass band instrumentation with a large range of saxophones (my instrument!). A unique and colorful sound. He said it was primarily a Dutch thing, and indeed the composer Johan De Meij often publishes his pieces separately for that specific orchestration.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 21, 2007, 02:00:55 PM
Quote from: Greta on April 21, 2007, 10:34:53 AM
A Dutch friend also plays in a "fanfare band", I didn't realize it was a separate entity but it's quite interesting actually, basically a brass band instrumentation with a large range of saxophones (my instrument!). A unique and colorful sound. He said it was primarily a Dutch thing, and indeed the composer Johan De Meij often publishes his pieces separately for that specific orchestration.'

Great that you mention this. 'We' (the not-so-few Dutch in this forum) won't refer to these types of Dutch musical traditions that often, and often feel obliged to accept the dominance here of Anglo-Saxon concepts and realities. But actually, 'we' have this strong Fanfare tradition of our own, which absolutely differs from the British Brass Band, though it is of at least the same semi-professional level. (Just as indeed 'our' choral tradition might even be 'stronger' than the much better-known British manifestation of it. Though the Danes in this forum might state a similar claim.).

Anyhow, I love Vaughan Williams' compositions in this field, and can't think of a Dutch equivalent of the same level, as Hendrik Andriessen didn't produce much in this direction, even if Henk Badings did.. Johan de Meij is indeed the best known representative of this thread in the Dutch musical tradition, and worth a hearing. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 22, 2007, 08:59:19 AM
Quote from: Christo on April 21, 2007, 04:21:42 AM
What about the other extracts from The England of Elizabeth Muir Mathieson (if I spell his name correctly) did take from them? Have they been recorded, and are they somehow available too?


They can be found in Vol 2 of the Chandos series of VW film music  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on April 22, 2007, 10:39:08 AM
Which is an expansion of Mathieson's material. The Mathieson suite was recorded by André Previn as part of his LSO RVW cycle.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 11:37:24 AM
The English Folk Song Suite may be minor RVW, but it's good, clean fun.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 25, 2007, 11:18:46 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 11:37:24 AM
The English Folk Song Suite may be minor RVW, but it's good, clean fun.

One of my favourites actually, especially the middle movement. I like it both in its band and orchestral form.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Hector on April 27, 2007, 06:20:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 11:37:24 AM
The English Folk Song Suite may be minor RVW, but it's good, clean fun.

Who said it was minor?

It has 'Seventeen come Sunday' which is brilliant!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 06:44:34 AM
If a three-movement suite for Military Band running only eleven minutes is not a minor work, what is?  Für Elise and nothing else?  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on April 27, 2007, 07:35:23 AM
It might've already been mentioned before, but was is the recommended set of symphonies for this guy?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 27, 2007, 07:38:49 AM
Quote from: greg on April 27, 2007, 07:35:23 AM
It might've already been mentioned before, but was is the recommended set of symphonies for this guy?

I have Thomson(Chandos) and Previn (RCA - cheap as hell). Both are pretty good. THe Chandos sound is a bit much for me - kind of too revereberent so I slightly prefer the Previn. Many like the Slatkin set but I think it is OOP. There are two Boult sets out there but I am in general not a big Boult fan, he is just not interesting as a conductor.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on April 27, 2007, 07:45:46 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 27, 2007, 07:38:49 AM
I have Thomson(Chandos) and Previn (RCA - cheap as hell). Both are pretty good. THe Chandos sound is a bit much for me - kind of too revereberent so I slightly prefer the Previn. Many like the Slatkin set but I think it is OOP. There are two Boult sets out there but I am in general not a big Boult fan, he is just not interesting as a conductor.
Thanks, I just checked out the Thomson and Previn sets.
Woooooooooooooowwwwwwwww!!!!  :o
The Previn set not only has the 9 symphonies, but much more, including a tuba concerto, has an average of a 5-star rating, and is only $20!!!!  :o
That's not something you see every day, good thing I asked. Well, that'll definetely be on my wish-list....  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 27, 2007, 07:56:22 AM
Quote from: greg on April 27, 2007, 07:45:46 AM
Thanks, I just checked out the Thomson and Previn sets.
Woooooooooooooowwwwwwwww!!!!  :o
The Previn set not only has the 9 symphonies, but much more, including a tuba concerto, has an average of a 5-star rating, and is only $20!!!!  :o
That's not something you see every day, good thing I asked. Well, that'll definetely be on my wish-list....  0:)

Beware that Amazon don't stock the Previn set. I ordered mine and it took over 2 months for them to ship  >:(

But you can't beat the price though. The Boult set (the one with 5 CDs, not the 8 CD version) is also available for around $20-$25 depending on availability at the time. The Thomson is quite expensive for some weird reason. But once in a while you catch a Musical Heritage Society incarnation of the Thomson set for cheap.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on April 27, 2007, 08:07:12 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 27, 2007, 07:56:22 AM
Beware that Amazon don't stock the Previn set. I ordered mine and it took over 2 months for them to ship  >:(

ooh, yeah, that's definetely good to before buying
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on April 29, 2007, 08:27:41 AM
Quote from: greg on April 27, 2007, 07:35:23 AM
It might've already been mentioned before, but was is the recommended set of symphonies for this guy?

This one is the best bet for the entire set of nine:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MDJET9RXL._AA240_.jpg)

On this CD:

   1. Symphony No. 1, '(A) Sea Symphony'
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Choir
      with Joan Rodgers, William Shimell
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

   2. Symphony No. 2, '(A) London Symphony'
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

   3. Symphony No. 8 in D minor
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

   4. English Folk Song Suite
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

   5. Symphony No. 3, '(A) Pastoral Symphony'
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra
      with Alison Barlow
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

   6. Symphony No. 4 in F minor
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

   7. Flos campi
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Choir
      with Christopher Balmer
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

   8. Concerto for Oboe and Strings in A minor
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra
      with Jonathan Small
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

   9. Symphony No. 5 in D
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

  10. Symphony No. 6 in E minor
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

  11. Symphony No. 9 in E minor
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

  12. Fantasia on 'Greensleeves'
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra
      with Colin Chambers, Mair Jones
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

  13. Serenade to Music
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Choir
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

  14. Symphony No. 7, 'Sinfonia antartica'
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Performed by Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Choir
      with Alison Hargan, Ian Tracey
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

  15. Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

  16. Five Variants of "Dives and Lazarus"
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

  17. Job
      Composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams
      Conducted by Vernon Handley

There are greater individual performances of most of these works (Boult for No.1, Previn for No.3, Berglund for No.4, Andrew Davis for No.6, Haitink for No.7, Barbirolli for No.8), but the set has no weak moments in the symphonies and contains JOB as well. In Nos. 2, 4, 5, 6 and 9 Handley is superb.

Haitink and Slatkin are wildly uneven: Haitink does a good 1st, a terrifc 2nd, an OK 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th, the best "Anatartica" - but a terrible 8th and 9th, Slatkin is great only in No.4 and No.9, terrible in No.2, undistinguished in Nos. 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7. Bryden Thomson's set is also very fine, he does a great "London" and fine 3rd, 4th, 5th and 9th Symphonies, but the 1st is only OK, as is No.7. No.6 is a lacklustre performance. Previn/LSO still has the best "Pastoral" on offer, and the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 7th, 8th and 9th are all good. Nos 4 & 6 are not that great. Boult's two complete sets have their share of "classics" - nobody has ever done a greater "Sea Symphony" than Boult, and that accounts for both of his versions (mono and stereo sets). The Mono set has less polished playing but much more energy and finesse.

The worst set is the Naxos (Kees Bakels falls short of the mark in almost all of his contributions except in the 7th and 8th), followed by Andrew Davis (only his 6th can be recommended) and Hickox' recent cycle.

These symphonies are mostly true masterpieces, so you might consider buying individual performances instead:

No.1 - Boult/EMI (Stereo), Boult/Decca (Mono)
No.2 - Barbirolli (Dutton, stereo), Thomson (Chandos), Handley (EMI - the LPO performance!), Arwel Hughes (ASV), Haitink (EMI)
No.3 - Previn/RCA, or Boult/Decca (Mono), Thomson (Chandos)
No.4 - Berglund/EMI, Vaughan Williams (Dutton, mono), Handley, Thomson
No.5 - Handley, Previn/RPO (Telarc), Thomson, Hickox(!, Chandos)
No.6 - A.Davis (Teldec), Handley
No.7 - Haitink (EMI), Barbirolli (EMI, mono)
No.8 - Barbirolli (Dutton, stereo), Stokowski, Handley
No.9 - Thomson, Slatkin (RCA)

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on April 29, 2007, 10:38:51 AM
thanks for the recommendations!

wow, a true Vaughan Williams fan right here, huh?  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 30, 2007, 02:41:14 AM
Here's my list:

No 1 Boult (Decca)

No 2 Previn (RCA), Boult (EMI), Barbirolli (EMI, I know many prefer the earlier Dutton), Hickox (orig version 1913) Chandos, Handley (EMI not CFP version)

No 3 Previn (RCA)

No 4 Berglund (EMI), Thomson (Chandos) Mitropoulos (Sony)

No 5 Barbirolli (EMI) Hickox (Chandos)

No 6 Abravanel (Vanguard), Boult (Decca) Stokowski (Cala), Berglund (HMV n/a)

No 7 Barbirolli (EMI), Haitink (EMI)

No 8 Previn (RCA)

No 9 Stokowski (Cala), Boult (EMI or Decca/Everest), Slatkin (RCA), Thomson (Chandos)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on April 30, 2007, 02:45:14 AM
I totally forgot Abravanel in the 6th - great recording now available on DVD.

Also, Bernstein is good  in the 4th.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2007, 03:21:00 AM
Quote from: sound67 on April 30, 2007, 02:45:14 AM
Also, Bernstein is good  in the 4th.
Thomas

Thank you for adding Bernstein's Fourth. It's absence was the only quibble I had with your original list. Well, I do like Boult in the Ninth but can't fault your selections in this strange symphony (my favorite along with the Eighth).

1 - Boult EMI
2 - Barbirolli/Hallé
3 - Previn/LSO (but very fond of Boult too)
4 - Bernstein/NY Phil
5 - Handley/RLPO
6 - Davis/BBC
7 - Haitink/LPO
8 - Barbirolli/Hallé
9 - Boult/EMI

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 01, 2007, 05:03:13 AM
I agree; Bernstein's No 4 is excellent too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on May 01, 2007, 01:31:37 PM
Quote from: Hector on April 27, 2007, 06:20:14 AM
Who said it was minor?

It has 'Seventeen come Sunday' which is brilliant!

I recently bought a disc of Percy Grainger's choral music (J E Gardiner conducting), which includes his adaptation of this folk song and it's just so much fun (the whole disc is full of gems)!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on May 01, 2007, 01:43:48 PM
Bernstein's 4th didn't sit well with me, though I can't remember why. Berglund is my man for the 4th, with Handley bringing up the rear. I even like Haitink in this (and in the 9th).

For the 6th I, again, prefer Haitink, though I am now very fond of Berglund in this too (thanks again, Jeffrey). I was disappointed with Davies after all the hype, I must say.

No argument from me about Previn being the man for the 3rd. That recording really was a revelation.

But anyway, I want to hear more about Riders to the Sea. I have only heard tantalising clips of the EMI recording and will wait patiently for its re-release.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on May 01, 2007, 03:36:10 PM
Quote from: The Notorious MOG on May 01, 2007, 01:43:48 PM
Bernstein's 4th didn't sit well with me, though I can't remember why. Berglund is my man for the 4th, with Handley bringing up the rear. I even like Haitink in this (and in the 9th).

I agree that Haitink does well with the Fourth.  I don't remember any disappointment with Handley in that work, though . . . will break it out again tomorrow!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 03, 2007, 04:09:41 AM
Quote from: The Notorious MOG on May 01, 2007, 01:43:48 PM
Bernstein's 4th didn't sit well with me, though I can't remember why. Berglund is my man for the 4th, with Handley bringing up the rear. I even like Haitink in this (and in the 9th).

For the 6th I, again, prefer Haitink, though I am now very fond of Berglund in this too (thanks again, Jeffrey). I was disappointed with Davies after all the hype, I must say.

No argument from me about Previn being the man for the 3rd. That recording really was a revelation.

But anyway, I want to hear more about Riders to the Sea. I have only heard tantalising clips of the EMI recording and will wait patiently for its re-release.

Yes, I  have added Berglund's No 6 to my list above, although it has long been unavailable (its only CD appearance, as far as I know, was a brief appearance on the original HMV own label series, where it was coupled with an underrated version of No 5 conducted by Alexander Gibson). Berglund's No 6 is a craggy, epic, sibelian interpretation.  Richard Abram at EMI tells me that there are plans for EMI to reissue these performances in their British Composers series but, since then, there have been cut backs at the EMI classical division.

"Riders to the Sea" is a hauntingly atmospheric work, more of a one act "music drama" rather than opera. The EMI Meredith Davies version is the one to have. It was coupled with "Epithalamion" Vaughan Williams's last choral work; a beautiful, haunting score. The booklet with the EMI release also contained the wonderful 1957/8 painting of Vaughan Williams by Gerald Kelly. It was perhaps my favourite disc in the EMI British Composers series.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Hector on May 03, 2007, 05:51:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 06:44:34 AM
If a three-movement suite for Military Band running only eleven minutes is not a minor work, what is?  Für Elise and nothing else?  ;D

Oh, you mean 'minor' as in short, like a Chopin etude or a Debussy prelude.

Yeah, right 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on May 04, 2007, 12:12:23 AM
Quote from: Captain Haddock on May 03, 2007, 04:09:41 AM
"Riders to the Sea" is a hauntingly atmospheric work, more of a one act "music drama" rather than opera. The EMI Meredith Davies version is the one to have. It was coupled with "Epithalamion" Vaughan Williams's last choral work; a beautiful, haunting score. The booklet with the EMI release also contained the wonderful 1957/8 painting of Vaughan Williams by Gerald Kelly. It was perhaps my favourite disc in the EMI British Composers series.

I agree on both counts: An amazingly beautiful work, very concise at 40 minutes, and a great performance. Hickox' Chandos version is not bad, though - which is more than you can say for some of the other RVW he recorded for Chandos.

These are some recommendations for other, shorter RVW works:

- Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis - Sinfonia of London/Barbirolli (EMI GROC), RPO/Previn, and, most emphatically, Bournemouth SO/Constantine Silvestri (!!!, EMI British Composers)
- JOB (not really a short work at 50 minutes) - LPO/Boult (EMI)
- The Lark Ascending - Hahn/LSO/Davis (DG), Chang/LPO/Haitink (EMI), Pougnet/LPO/Boult (Dutton, mono), Bean/LPO/Boult (EMI)
- Piano Concerto: Shelley/RPO/Handley (Lyrita, coupled with another great work, the "Dynamic Triptych" by John Foulds)
- all the choral works on EMI, either by Boult or by Willcocks
- sting quartets by the Maggini Quartet, on Naxos, if only 1st: Britten Quartet on EMI

Thomas

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 04, 2007, 06:25:54 AM
The EMI CD with Job (Boult) and the double Piano Concerto (Vronsky/Babin/Boult) is my favourite recording of both works, although Boult's earlier Belart and Everest versions of Job are also very good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Iconito on May 09, 2007, 10:50:54 AM

Please excuse my astounding ignorance. I was looking for Janine Jansen videos on youtube last night (I was told she can play the violin, too! (http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/clown.gif)) and I found this version of The Lark Ascending, which is now the first and only Work by VW I know...

My question: Is this piece really representative of VW's style?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MishaK on May 09, 2007, 11:08:34 AM
Quote from: Iconito on May 09, 2007, 10:50:54 AM
Please excuse my astounding ignorance. I was looking for Janine Jansen videos on youtube last night (I was told she can play the violin, too! (http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/clown.gif)) and I found this version of The Lark Ascending, which is now the first and only Work by VW I know...

My question: Is this piece really representative of VW's style?

Yes and no. RVW doesn't have a single "style". He goes back and forth between the overtly folkloristic and the more expressionist. The Lark is more folkloristic. But his Symphony No.4 for example has hardly anything in common with that, stylistically.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Iconito on May 09, 2007, 03:31:36 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 09, 2007, 11:08:34 AM
Yes and no. RVW doesn't have a single "style". He goes back and forth between the overtly folkloristic and the more expressionist. The Lark is more folkloristic. But his Symphony No.4 for example has hardly anything in common with that, stylistically.

Thanks, O! I'll keep trying, then...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 10, 2007, 01:27:26 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 09, 2007, 11:08:34 AMYes and no. RVW doesn't have a single "style". He goes back and forth between the overtly folkloristic and the more expressionist. The Lark is more folkloristic. But his Symphony No.4 for example has hardly anything in common with that, stylistically.

My answer would tend even more towards a straight "no". Even though finished after WWI, the Lark Ascending dates from before (1914) - and my conclusion would be, that never ever after RVW wrote anything in this fashion. I see the Lark as his farewell to a pre-WWI, sunny England, a happy landscape of his youth. Its overtly and uninhibited lyrical, a revelling in sheer beauty --- indeed, almost to much to endure (the element he added when finishing it around 1920).

After WWI (in which he served in Northern France), this pure lyricism never returned. The difference is shown by comparision with his Pastoral Symphony (dating from 1916-22): at first sight purely lyrical, at a second hearing tragical and dark, his War Requiem. Ever afterwards his music was always 'sadder and wiser' than the Lark.

The  'happiest' and most uncomplicated-lyrical music of his later years I can think of being: The Sereneda to Music and the Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus (both late '30s), and perhaps his final 'Christmas music' (a return to the happiness of childhood, in Hodie: A Christmas Cantata, and The Last Nowell, both from his final years, the '50s.)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: tjguitar on May 16, 2007, 10:41:20 AM
Wow I just heard Handley's LPO recording for EMI and I think it might even be better than the RLPO box:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JW6MK41JL._SS500_.jpg)

It only seems to be available in the UK, though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on May 17, 2007, 01:16:41 AM
Quote from: tjguitar on May 16, 2007, 10:41:20 AM
Wow I just heard Handley's LPO recording for EMI and I think it might even be better than the RLPO box

It IS better. It has more atmosphere.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 17, 2007, 03:25:25 AM
Quote from: sound67 on May 17, 2007, 01:16:41 AM
It IS better. It has more atmosphere.

No 2 is better than the CFP performance, No 6 not as good, they should have issued the Berglund No 6 instead; am opportunity missed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: tjguitar on May 18, 2007, 10:44:48 PM
Question for all: Did Vernon Handley record the Tom Tallis Fantasia twice?

I have this CD (included in the Handley RVW set) which credits to being recorded in 1973 w/ the London Philharmonic:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Jun02/RVW_job_dfp.jpg)

but then there's also this other CfP CD which credits the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic in it's amazon listing, I don't have the disc so it could be a mistake in the listing:

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AZH0DSA0L._AA240_.jpg)

If there is indeed two different recordings, does anyone have any preferences?

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on May 21, 2007, 02:14:24 PM
Quote from: tjguitar on May 16, 2007, 10:41:20 AM
Wow I just heard Handley's LPO recording for EMI and I think it might even be better than the RLPO box:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JW6MK41JL._SS500_.jpg)

It only seems to be available in the UK, though.

Fantastic record. Import it; it's worth whatever the price, absolutely.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 27, 2007, 07:02:01 AM
My personal list of preferred recordings of the RVW symphonies (but to be honest, I don't know all recordings):

No. 1  no real idea, but probably Boult
No. 2  Handley (EMI), Hickox in the original version (Chandos)
No. 3  Previn (RCA), Handley (EMI)
No. 4  Bernstein (Sony), Thomson (Chandos)
No. 5  Handley (EMI), Thomson (Chandos)
No. 6  Stokowski (Cala), Thomson (Chandos - I know, I'm the only one to cherish this slow, but powerfull and to my ears highly tragic rendering)
No. 7  Haitink (EMI) ?
No. 8  Barbirolli (RCA), Slatkin (RCA)
No. 9  Thomson (Chandos), Slatkin (RCA), Stokowski (Cala)

In my list, Thomson is the overall winner, followed by Handley, Boult, Previn and Stokowski.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scottscheule on June 06, 2007, 06:09:23 PM
I'm listening to Symphonies 6, 8, and the Nocturne (Whispers of Heavenly Death), lately. 

Thoughts on these pieces?

Incidentally, listening to the Nocturne may be the first time I've really understood Whitman's poetry.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 06, 2007, 11:40:05 PM
Quote from: scottscheule on June 06, 2007, 06:09:23 PM
I'm listening to Symphonies 6, 8, and the Nocturne (Whispers of Heavenly Death), lately. Thoughts on these pieces? Incidentally, listening to the Nocturne may be the first time I've really understood Whitman's poetry.
Reviewers haven't been very positive about Hickox' performance of the symphonies, and that's why I didn't order for this CD, so far. But the Nocturne is a recent discovery and gets its world premiere, here. Hope to learn more about the piece.
(http://www.chandos.net/hiresart/CHAN%2010103.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2007, 01:27:09 AM
Quote from: scottscheule on June 06, 2007, 06:09:23 PM
I'm listening to Symphonies 6, 8, and the Nocturne (Whispers of Heavenly Death), lately. 

Thoughts on these pieces?

Incidentally, listening to the Nocturne may be the first time I've really understood Whitman's poetry.

The Sixth, IMHO is VW's greatest symphony as it combines the violence of No 4 with the spirituality of No 5, the result is both compelling and disquieting. Hickox is generally v good but this is his weakest performance I think. Boult's Decca is the best but v good versions from Haitink, Thomson and Davis.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on June 07, 2007, 02:28:47 AM
Hickox's performance of No.8 is particularly weak (lacking in colour and excitement), his 6th better but hardly distinguished. There are many superior versions of this, arguably Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony, like Berglund,'s Handley's, Andrew Davis', Boult's 1947th, Stokowski's or even Haitink's.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2007, 02:37:29 AM
Quote from: sound67 on June 07, 2007, 02:28:47 AM
Hickox's performance of No.8 is particularly weak (lacking in colour and excitement), his 6th better but hardly distinguished. There are many superior versions of this, arguably Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony, like Berglund,'s Handley's, Andrew Davis', Boult's 1947th, Stokowski's or even Haitink's.

Thomas

Agreed (although I marginally prefer Boult's 1950s recording), we need the Berglund back in circulation. Stokowski and Abravanel made fine recordings too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on June 07, 2007, 09:27:37 AM
Why do I keep forgetting the Abravanel... Great recording.  $:)

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scottscheule on June 07, 2007, 09:39:44 AM
Quote from: sound67 on June 07, 2007, 02:28:47 AM
Hickox's performance of No.8 is particularly weak (lacking in colour and excitement), his 6th better but hardly distinguished. There are many superior versions of this, arguably Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony, like Berglund,'s Handley's, Andrew Davis', Boult's 1947th, Stokowski's or even Haitink's.

Thomas

Could be: this is the only recording I have of the pieces (it is the Hickox).  Before that I was listening to Barbirolli's 5th, which I loved.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 07, 2007, 09:41:04 AM
Thomas! The Eighth, arguably the greatest?  You surprise me!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on June 07, 2007, 10:00:38 AM
QuoteHickox's performance of No.8 is particularly weak (lacking in colour and excitement), his 6th better but hardly distinguished. There are many superior versions of this, arguably Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony

I was indeed referring to the 6th.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 07, 2007, 10:04:52 AM
Ah! Sorry to mistake you.

That's more like  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2007, 08:17:18 AM
Much more realistic than with Elgar, would be the goal of 0% of people who are into classical music think Vaughan Williams is insignificant or that his music licks mudflaps at a Scranton truckstop.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: tjguitar on June 10, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
MusicWeb seems to have added a convenient page w/ all their RVW reviews.

Neat. http://musicweb.uk.net/Vwilliams/revidx.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 10, 2007, 11:52:51 PM
Quote from: Christo on May 27, 2007, 07:02:01 AM
My personal list of preferred recordings of the RVW symphonies (but to be honest, I don't know all recordings):

No. 1  no real idea, but probably Boult
No. 2  Handley (EMI), Hickox in the original version (Chandos)
No. 3  Previn (RCA), Handley (EMI)
No. 4  Bernstein (Sony), Thomson (Chandos)
No. 5  Handley (EMI), Thomson (Chandos)
No. 6  Stokowski (Cala), Thomson (Chandos - I know, I'm the only one to cherish this slow, but powerfull and to my ears highly tragic rendering)
No. 7  Haitink (EMI) ?
No. 8  Barbirolli (RCA), Slatkin (RCA)
No. 9  Thomson (Chandos), Slatkin (RCA), Stokowski (Cala)

In my list, Thomson is the overall winner, followed by Handley, Boult, Previn and Stokowski.



An excellent choice of recordings.  You are not alone in admiring Bryden Thomson's Chandos No 6, I think that along with Boult (Decca), Boult (Dutton)  Abravanel and Stokowski, it is one of the greatest recordings of a symphony that is notoriously difficult to get right on disc. The BBC Music Magazine's guide to the 1000 best recordings agrees with you too! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 11, 2007, 12:00:26 AM
Quote from: tjguitar on June 10, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
MusicWeb seems to have added a convenient page w/ all their RVW reviews.

Neat. http://musicweb.uk.net/Vwilliams/revidx.htm

V helpful, thank you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 13, 2007, 11:57:53 PM
Quote from: Captain Haddock on June 11, 2007, 12:00:26 AM
V helpful, thank you.

Very helpful indeed: the overview of the new releases per year shows an amazing abundancy: so many new recording, each year. Without this overview I wouldn't have learnt about the Dutton release of the orchestrated Six Studies on English Folk Song (1926, orch. 1957) [8:42] - for example. Anybody heard them?

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: techniquest on June 14, 2007, 11:35:36 PM
I can't comment on Hickox's recordings of the 6th and 8th, but his recording of the original London Symphony is just masterful. The live performance he gave at the 2005 Proms was also superb. The LSO under Norrington recorded a really excellent London Symphony too.
I haven't heard the Haitink 7, but after reading this thread I really must - it'll have to go some way if it's going to surpass the Handley recording.
I would also wholeheartedly recommend the examination of the Tallis Fantasia on the Radio 3 Discovering Music Archive
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/audioarchive.shtml
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 21, 2007, 04:19:13 PM
Quote from: techniquest on June 14, 2007, 11:35:36 PM
I can't comment on Hickox's recordings of the 6th and 8th, but his recording of the original London Symphony is just masterful. The live performance he gave at the 2005 Proms was also superb. The LSO under Norrington recorded a really excellent London Symphony too.

Of course! We all agree on that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 27, 2007, 06:44:00 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 13, 2007, 11:57:53 PM
. . . the Dutton release of the orchestrated Six Studies on English Folk Song (1926, orch. 1957) [8:42] - for example. Anybody heard them?

Alas, I think the answer seems to be, "No" . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 10, 2007, 01:21:17 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 13, 2007, 11:57:53 PM
Very helpful indeed: the overview of the new releases per year shows an amazing abundancy: so many new recording, each year. Without this overview I wouldn't have learnt about the Dutton release of the orchestrated Six Studies on English Folk Song (1926, orch. 1957) [8:42] - for example. Anybody heard them?



I have this CD now.  The orchestral (string orch) version of VW's Six Studies is quite beautiful. I played it the other day and my wife, who does not generally like my taste in music (I don't understand why not...how could anyone possibly not appreciate works like Pettersson's "The Dead in the Market Place" or Shostakovich's "Babi Yar" Symphony? ;D)..anyway, she asked "what is this beautiful music?". So, a strong recommendation therefore. The other works on the Dutton CD are pleasant enough but it is well worth having for the VW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Kiddiarni on July 10, 2007, 12:11:40 PM
I once played a piece by R. Vaughan Williams.

It was called "Ten Blake Songs" (with lyrics from William Blake poems) for oboe and Tenor.  It was hard to master, but once it was it sounded good. (Although it sounded better on the last practice than it did on the concert)

One thing I liked a lot about the pieces are footnotes by the author:
Quote from: R. Vaughan WilliamsNote: The oboe parts of these songs may, in case of necessity, be played on a violin or (by transposing the songs down a tone) on a B flat clarinet - but neither of these expedients is advisable. R.V.W

Shows you how much the oboe owns.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 10, 2007, 12:17:33 PM
Quote from: RVWNote: The oboe parts of these songs may, in case of necessity, be played on a violin or (by transposing the songs down a tone) on a B flat clarinet - but neither of these expedients is advisable.

Fascinating, Kiddiarni . . . I played two (or three?) of these with one of the tenors in the choir back in September.  I did not know (but it does not surprise me) that he actually got the idea from the composer (and if those expedients are not advisable, why does he give that advice, eh?)

Actually, we took a third route;  I sight-transposed the oboe part, so that the tenor could still sing in the notated key  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Kiddiarni on July 10, 2007, 04:25:04 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2007, 12:17:33 PM
Fascinating, Kiddiarni . . . I played two (or three?) of these with one of the tenors in the choir back in September.  I did not know (but it does not surprise me) that he actually got the idea from the composer (and if those expedients are not advisable, why does he give that advice, eh?)

Actually, we took a third route;  I sight-transposed the oboe part, so that the tenor could still sing in the notated key  8)

I can't do that, sight-transposing that is.

And, interestingly enough, karlhenning I also played it with a tenor in my choir, and I actually played two pieces with him, the third one was solo.  We played The Infant Joy, nr. 1., and nr. 10, which I don't remember the name of, and then the tenor sung nr. 6, The Shepherd, solo.

So I take it you play the clarinet?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on July 10, 2007, 04:34:59 PM
Oddly, at a christening I was asked to sing one of these songs unaccompanied. Also as I am a baritone, it was transposed down. So not exactly authentic in practice. it was the song that starts off....Little Lamb, who made thee? That is the Infant Joy song I think.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bonehelm on July 10, 2007, 10:39:19 PM
I just listened to his Fantasia on Greensleeves, what a beautiful piece!  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Kiddiarni on July 11, 2007, 09:37:36 AM
Quote from: knight on July 10, 2007, 04:34:59 PM
Oddly, at a christening I was asked to sing one of these songs unaccompanied. Also as I am a baritone, it was transposed down. So not exactly authentic in practice. it was the song that starts off....Little Lamb, who made thee? That is the Infant Joy song I think.

Mike

Naah... the Infant Joy is the one which starts off with "I have no name, I am but two days old".  If I remeber correctly there are two solo songs in the piece, that is two out of the total of ten.  One is the Shepherd and the other I don't remember...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 09:24:46 AM
Quote from: Kiddiarni on July 10, 2007, 04:25:04 PM
I can't do that, sight-transposing that is.

And, interestingly enough, karlhenning I also played it with a tenor in my choir, and I actually played two pieces with him, the third one was solo.  We played The Infant Joy, nr. 1., and nr. 10, which I don't remember the name of, and then the tenor sung nr. 6, The Shepherd, solo.

So I take it you play the clarinet?

Guilty as charged :-)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Kiddiarni on July 14, 2007, 10:03:26 AM
I once played the clarinet.  I was tricked into believing that the Pink Panther theme was played on a Clarinet, and I wanted to play that tune, so I started playing the clarinet.  Later my teacher asked if I wanted to change to the oboe, and I did...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 14, 2007, 08:42:47 PM
But . . . the Pink Panther theme is not played on the oboe either . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Kiddiarni on July 15, 2007, 09:46:33 AM
Correct.  But my teacher said that only the toughest could handle the oboe, so I decided to swap.  I was 11 years old, you see... so I followed my teacher's recommendations.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 15, 2007, 09:56:35 AM
And what's your opinion of Vaughan Williams' Oboe concerto?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on July 31, 2007, 10:51:18 AM
Forthcoming this year is a three-hour documentary feature on RVW, by Tony Palmer, the director of "Testimony":

QuoteNEW TONY PALMER FILM ABOUT VW NEARS COMPLETION
11th June 2007

Tony Palmer the distinguished and highly acclaimed director is currently putting the finishing touches to a film he has made about Vaughan Williams. Three hours long, it looks at Vaughan Williams' life as a disturbed and frustrated one. The film will undoubtedly be controversial but very important in raising awareness of RVW.

The first ever full-length film biography of the great man, produced by the multi-award winning director, TONY PALMER, to be shown over several weeks in November on Channel FIVE and released on DVD in time for Christmas.
With many of those who knew and worked with him, including the GLOUCESTER CATHEDRAL CHOIR, conducted by ANDREW NETHSINGHA,
• archive performances by BOULT and BARBIROLLI,
• newly discovered interviews with VAUGHAN WILLIAMS himself,
• specially recorded extracts from The Symphonies, Job, The Lark Ascending and of course The Tallis Fantasia
• And with unexpected contributions from HARRISON BIRTWISTLE, JOHN ADAMS
MARK ANTHONY TURNAGE, MICHAEL TIPPETT & NEIL TENNANT of The Pet Shop Boys.
A glorious 3 hour celebration, but with a helluva sting in the tail.

Reprinted below with Tony Palmer's permision, is the article as published in the OUP magazine.

VAUGHAN WILLIAMS
for O.U.P. magazine

'O thou transcendent.....'

Vaughan Williams holds an extraordinary fascination for a surprising number of fellow musicians. Known for his openness with advice to younger colleagues, he was often besieged by requests along the lines of "I'm thinking of becoming a composer. Can you give me a few hints?" Thus the 80 year-old grand old man of British music received the 16 year-old whippersnapper, Harrison Birtwistle. The great American composer John Adams was taken by his parents as a 9 year-old to his first orchestral concert in Boston, U.S.A. The first piece on the menu was Vaughan Williams. Adams, previously (he believed) destined to be an engineer, told his parents he now wanted to be a composer - "like that!" Neil Tennant, famous as part of The Pet Shop Boys, had a similar Damascus moment as a schoolboy in Newcastle. Mark Anthony Turnage, knocked sideways by his encounter with "the darkness, even hopelessness", of Vaughan Williams' vision of mankind....the list of such musicians included in this 3-hour film is considerable.

Next year will be the 50th anniversary of his death. Having made films about Britten and Walton, I knew I had to face up to the man whose shadow falls across the whole of 20th century English music, and also as to why he was not immediately thought of in the same breath as, say, Elgar. It seems to me now, as I put the finishing touches to my film, that his importance exceeds the other three. Two stories illustrate this.

In 1936, Vaughan Williams went to Norwich for the première of his Five Tudor Portraits. When he arrived at the rehearsal, the leader of the orchestra asked him to 'deal with' the composer of the other work on the programme who was being an hysterical pest, and in any case they hated the piece. VW asked who it was, and then apparently told the leader: "Sir, you are in the presence of greatness. If you do not perform his work, then you cannot perform mine". The other work was Our Hunting Fathers; the composer the 22 year-old Benjamin Britten. Michael Tippett tells the film, in an interview recorded some years ago, that although as a student he had despised everything VW stood for with "all that folk waffle", after VW died Tippett realised he had made the most appalling misjudgement because it was VW "rather than any of his contemporaries" who had "made us free".

"Folk waffle"? I agree with Tippett - a profound misjudgement. It doesn't even begin to describe some the bleakest, most desperate and yearning English music written in the last 100 years. This is the musician who leapt back across the centuries to Tallis, Byrd, Dowland and Purcell long before it became fashionable to do so. This is the scholar who read Walt Whitman, long before anyone had ever heard of him on this side of the Atlantic. This is the visionary who single-handedly rescued the English Hymnal, who prodded the Churchill government during the Second World War to establish what became eventually the Arts Council and The Third Programme on the BBC.

But that's not the main thrust of my film, which is about the man himself. First, his family – related, either directly or by marriage to Darwin, to Wedgewood, to Keynes, to Virginia Woolf, centre stage among the intellectual aristocracy at the beginning of the 20th century. Then married, and devotedly so, for over 50 years to a woman who was for much of that time a cripple – can you imagine what that did to his psyche, his sexuality? And he was a devastatingly good looking young man, not the crumpled, cuddly figure that has become (until now, I hope) his lasting image. A man who volunteered, aged 41, to serve in the infantry in the First World War, but eventually served in the Ambulance Corps (and don't forget his very sheltered background – Charterhouse, Cambridge, and a man who never needed to earn his living), picking up bits of bodies blown to smithereens in the Battle of Vimy Ridge. And this had no effect on him and his music? Of course it did.

In the end, of course, it's the music which speaks to us. Gergiev's Mariinsky Orchestra provides much of it in specially recorded extracts – all the Symphonies, Job, Tallis, The Lark, The National Youth Orchestra, which also celebrates 60 years in 2008, underlining VW's commitment to the young – he did, after all, helped to put the National Youth Orchestra on its feet; The English Chamber Orchestra, the BBC Chorus, Simon Keenleyside, Joan Rodgers, the amazing Catalan Viola da Gamba player Jordi Savall, the great folk singer Martin Carthy and his daughter Liza who will perform the folk songs that VW heard (and as he probably heard them) on his walking tours with Gustav Holst in 1903/4, and not least Gloucester Cathedral Choir with the hymns and The Mass. Dorking & The Leith Hill Music Festival, which VW conducted for over 50 years, is well represented. And all this quite apart from archive performances with Sir Colin Davis, Sir Adrian Boult and Barbirolli. Finally, there are the witnesses who knew and worked with him – Roy Douglas (now over 100), Michael Kennedy, David Willcocks, Lady Barbirolli, Lord Armstrong, Kiffer Finzi, Bill Llewellyn, Alun Hoddinott, Jill Balcon who remembers with tears her father's commissioning of the music for the film Scott of the Antarctic, Jerrold Northrop Moore, Hervey Fisher recalling his great Aunt Adeline, VW's first (and much overlooked first wife), Hugh Cobbe, the archivist of his letters......and of course Ursula Vaughan Williams herself in an extended interview she gave in 1990 recently discovered. Best of all, VW himself talking in hitherto forgotten interviews.

But my intention is not hagiography. It is simply this: to explode for ever I hope the image of a cuddly old Uncle, endlessly recycling English folk songs, and to awaken the audience to a central figure in our musical heritage who did more for us all than Greensleeves and Lark Ascending, even if it is No.1 in the Classic FM 'Hall of Fame'; who not only deserves his place among the greatest of British composers, but who deserves our respect and admiration as a man of phenomenal nobility and courage. Courage musically; we forget that in its time his music was considered progressive and 'modern' (he had after all studied with Ravel), and performed at the Salzburg Festival (the first English composer to be so honoured) and the Prague Contemporary Music Festival. His music was even banned by the Nazis. The 15 year-old Margot Fonteyn even danced in the stage première of Job. And courage as a man. Never forget the man from a privileged background picking up bits of dead bodies, a shattered head, an arm, a finger, an eye, while married for most of his adult life to a cripple in a wheelchair. In my view, anyone who tells you that his music is just notes on a page or 'visions of Corot' has missed the point – by a million miles.

At the end of my interview with Roy Douglas, he jabbed his finger at me and said: "young man. Tell me, what is his music about?" I waffled, inevitably – "oh, I said, belief in humanity, visionary, optimism......" "Oh yes?" said Roy. "End of the 6th Symphony? 4th Symphony? 9th Symphony? even the Norfolk Rhapsody? A very bleak vision. Just think of the times he lived through. Think again, young man" he said. I have, and this film is the result. It does not make comfortable viewing.

©Tony Palmer

The film will be shown over several weeks on Channel FIVE in November 2007.
The première will be at the Barbican Cinema in the same month. The DVD of the full 3 hour film will available in time for Christmas.

Tomny Palmer's web site http://www.tonypalmer.org/

My emphasis.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 31, 2007, 10:59:34 AM
I just can't believe he said "the man whose shadow falls across the whole of 20th century English music" of anyone other than Elgar  ;D 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 31, 2007, 11:29:06 AM
Fascinating news about the film. I can't wait to see it. I've always been curious about VW's first marriage to Adeline (his second wife Ursula is still alive). Apparently it was happy but Adeline always looks so miserable in photos.

I had the good fortune to have tea with Roy Douglas myself as he lives nearby and had an enjoyable afternoon hearing his reminiscences of Vaughan Williams.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 31, 2007, 11:32:11 AM
I'd be game to see the RVW movie.

I haven't been interested in seeing Testimony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on July 31, 2007, 12:49:18 PM
This is indeed exciting news.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 01, 2007, 05:43:17 AM
Indeed so. At least, it's clear now what I will be asking as a Christmas present.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on August 07, 2007, 09:55:26 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 01, 2007, 05:43:17 AM
Indeed so. At least, it's clear now what I will be asking as a Christmas present.

Same with me, since I can not receive channel five unfortunately. By the way, I have a DVD documentary also made by Tony Palmer, "Toward the unknown region - Malcolm Arnold - A story of Survival". A very good documentary in my opinion. This man evidently knows his business. I am looking forward very much to this VW movie.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Szykneij on August 13, 2007, 11:17:08 AM
My discovery of the day is Vaughan Williams' Introduction and Fugue for Two Pianofortes that he composed in 1946. I'm not sure how many other fugues were previously written specifically for double piano, but the effect is striking.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 13, 2007, 11:29:21 AM
Tony, the final movement of the Stravinsky  Concerto per due pianoforti is a Preludio e Fuga
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 13, 2007, 11:31:25 AM
Quote from: Szykniej on August 13, 2007, 11:17:08 AM
My discovery of the day is Vaughan Williams' Introduction and Fugue for Two Pianofortes that he composed in 1946. I'm not sure how many other fugues were previously written specifically for double piano, but the effect is striking.

Never heard of this. Where did you find it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Szykneij on August 13, 2007, 11:40:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 13, 2007, 11:29:21 AM
Tony, the final movement of the Stravinsky  Concerto per due pianoforti is a Preludio e Fuga

Thanks, Karl. I guess Igor beat Ralph by about 32 years.


Quote from: sound67 on August 13, 2007, 11:31:25 AM
Never heard of this. Where did you find it?

An Orion LP recording (ORS 79343) by Evelinde Trenker and Vladimir Pleshakov. Copland's "Danza de Jalisco" and "Dance of the Adolescent" are also on it, as well as the Mendelssohn/Moscheles variations on Weber's "Preciosa". I can't find a date on the record, but the DOLBY indicia's look like 1970's vintage.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 29, 2007, 02:27:22 PM
Have been recently listening to Dona Nobis Pacem (Bryden Thomson and Boult recordings).I think that it is one of VW's finest works. Although it is episodic, some sections being composed 25 years apart, it does add up to a great symphonic whole and I believe that this doomed but heartfelt plea for peace, from the 1930s,is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

A similarly moving score is John Ireland's contemporaneous "These Things Shall Be" (Lyrita/Chandos).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on August 29, 2007, 02:32:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2007, 02:27:22 PM
Have been recently listening to Dona Nobis Pacem (Bryden Thomson and Boult recordings).I think that it is one of VW's finest works. Although it is episodic, some sections being composed 25 years apart, it does add up to a great symphonic whole and I believe that this doomed but heartfelt plea for peace, from the 1930s,is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
Agreed. I'm not a big RVW fan but I've liked this piece for a long time. I never find the 25-year gap between sections a problem, there's still a unity of message in the work's diversity of style.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 29, 2007, 02:49:54 PM
Quote from: edward on August 29, 2007, 02:32:17 PM
Agreed. I'm not a big RVW fan but I've liked this piece for a long time. I never find the 25-year gap between sections a problem, there's still a unity of message in the work's diversity of style.

Yes, I agree. It was great to attend a live performance in London a year or two back. This and Sancta Civitas are his finest choral works, although the largely unknown Epithalamion, from towards the end of the composer's life is a beautiful score. I love the end of Hodie but find it otherwise a little rambling.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on August 30, 2007, 04:29:36 AM
Sorry, but I am coming to this thread rather late in the day and so many of you have already discussed the different versions of the VW symphonies and other compositions. I am however excited to hear about the forthcoming TV documentary!

We are talking about the man who has been my favourite composer now for over forty years. I honestly believe that VW is one of the towering figures of 20th century music. If, as indicated, a number of people interviewed in the new film acknowledge his influence and genious then that is heart-warming! There is no doubting the incredible contribution made by Elgar in putting Britain much more firmly back on the musical map after the domination of German music in the 19th century and I would not for one moment seek to diminish the greatness of Elgar's two symphonies, the violin and cello concertos, the Dream of Gerontius or the Enigma Variations(for example) but it is high time indeed that the genius of Vaughan Williams was equally proclaimed. There is a consistent profoundity of utterance and expression across his oeuvre from the Tallis Fantasia through half a century to the 9th symphony which is quite breathtaking. His cycle of nine symphonies is one of the most consistently inspired in all 20th century music. The London Symphony, the Pastoral, the 5th-again only for example-move me to tears every time I hear them. The sheer power of works like the 4th and 6th symphonies are shattering in their impact. So too is that incredibly underperformed masterpiece Job. In these compositions VW's mastery of the orchestra is demonstrated to the highest degree.

But, as others have said, there are equally profound and incredibly moving smaller works like The Lark Ascending or Flos Campi and splendid cantatas like Sancta Civitas and Dona Nobis Pacem which exemplify the visionary qualities of VW's art. I am not really much of an opera lover but, as has been noted, VW composed the seldom heard short opera "Riders to the Sea" based on the play by the Irish dramatist J.M.Synge. In only 36 minutes or so of understated writing VW conjured all of the heart-rending tragedy of that play in the most beautiful and affecting music imagineable.

The image of the benign and cuddly old teddy bear, favourite uncle-the very personification of the 'cowpat' school of English composers
that has-to a considerable extent-bedevilled VW's reputation needs to be dispelled once and for all. If the forthcoming documentary can help achieve that-and I am amazed that a film of such length is being made at all-then all power to its elbow. There is absolutely no reason why music of this quality cannot 'travel' any more than the distinctively nordic music of Sibelius should appeal only to Finns!
Maybe the apparent rule that a composer's music goes into some kind of critical and popular recession after his death for about 20 years or so has been extended slightly longer for Vaughan Williams but there are a huge number of recordings now of his music and enormously distinguished cycles of his symphonies by a wide range of fine conductors. Perhaps the final breakthrough to proper critical acclaim is just round the corner? Recently we have had recordings of a number of the less well known choral works like "Willow-Wood", "The Sons of Light", "On Christmas Night" and "The First Nowell"(Oh, and what about the "Folk Songs of the Four Seasons" -a choral work which has not yet been recorded?)

Apologies if I have gone on too long but my enthusiasm for this great composer knows no bounds!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 30, 2007, 01:37:48 PM
I just listened to Sancta Civitas in the David Willcocks/John Shirley-Quirk version on EMI. It has to be one of Vaughan Williams's greatest works; breathtakingly beautiful in places. I am only aware of one other recording conducted by Rozhdestvensky on the now defunct BBC Radio Classics; an interesting CD coupled with a fine performance of Symphony 5.

One either responds to the music of Vaughan Williams or one does not. Those who do not, as Dundonnell points out, tend to identify it as "cow pat" music. Thomas Beecham did not seem to have too much time for Vaughan Williams, apparently proclaiming "It's the city life for me", after giving a rare performance of A Pastoral Symphony, although I do rather enjoy the description of this symphony, given by another critic, as symbolising "Vaughan Williams rolling over and over in a ploughed field on a wet day".

But, there is much more to Vaughan Williams than this and whilst works like the Sixth and Ninth symphonies do (to me at least) bring to mind images of the bleaker landscapes of England, they are, as Dundonnell suggests, profound philosophical works which raise fundamental questions, I believe, about the nature of human existence.

I was fortunate to hear a very fine performance of Sancta Civitas, a few years ago, at the church in Hove, Sussex where Vaughan Williams married his first wife Adeline in 1897.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on August 30, 2007, 02:53:01 PM
I have the Willcocks version of Sancta Civitas but I also have a version conducted by Richard Hickox, coupled with Dona Nobis Pacem, issued in 1993 in the EMI British Composers series.

Hickox seems to have had rather a mixed press from contributors to this thread as far as his recordings of the symphonies are concerned.
I would agree that not all of his recent recordings have fully convinced me. Haitink, Handley in the 5th, Andrew Davis in the 6th, Boult, Thomson have sometimes appeared to go deeper into different individual pieces. We ought however, I think, give all due praise to Hickox for the fantastic work he has done and is continuing to do for British music-including VW. Although he is spending a lot of time now at the Australian Opera I hope that he will continue to record as much British music as possible. It is a fairly sad reflection that only two professional symphony orchestras in Britain(the Halle and Ulster orchestras) currently employ British musical directors!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 31, 2007, 12:27:14 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 30, 2007, 02:53:01 PM
I have the Willcocks version of Sancta Civitas but I also have a version conducted by Richard Hickox, coupled with Dona Nobis Pacem, issued in 1993 in the EMI British Composers series.

Hickox seems to have had rather a mixed press from contributors to this thread as far as his recordings of the symphonies are concerned.
I would agree that not all of his recent recordings have fully convinced me. Haitink, Handley in the 5th, Andrew Davis in the 6th, Boult, Thomson have sometimes appeared to go deeper into different individual pieces. We ought however, I think, give all due praise to Hickox for the fantastic work he has done and is continuing to do for British music-including VW. Although he is spending a lot of time now at the Australian Opera I hope that he will continue to record as much British music as possible. It is a fairly sad reflection that only two professional symphony orchestras in Britain(the Halle and Ulster orchestras) currently employ British musical directors!

Yes, I forgot about the Hickox recording (which I have in my collection!). VW fans owe Hickox a great deal for the first recording of the original version of the London Symphony. Whatever the symphony gained, in terms of structure, through the revisions VW made to it up until 1936, I feel it lost in poetic atmosphere. Opinions differ, but I feel that the section which VW excised just before the epilogue was one of his finest inspirations and it is wonderful to have it restored in the Hickox recording. Hickox is strong in Dona Nobis Pacem, Sancta Civital but also, I think, in his recording of A Pastoral Symphony, Symphony 4 and Symphony 5. No 6 and 8 was a disappointment. No 6 is difficult to get right..only a few have achieved it (Boult on Decca and Dutton, Stokowsky on Cala, Abravanel on Vanguard, Thomson on Chandos, Barbirolli on Orfeo, Berglund on EMI (sadly unavailable) and Haitink on EMI.) Andrew Davis's recording is also good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 27, 2007, 06:11:29 AM
Hi people,

I'm a bloody RVW newbie.

1. What orchestral works (I generally like works for big orchestras) would you recommend to start with?

My listening preferences are nordish composers (Sibelius, Pettersson), Bruckner and Mahler. No need to mention Beethoven.

2. I've listened to sym. #7 and the London Symphony once a bit. Both reminded me of Rautavaaras Cantus Arcticus. Is Rautavaara a Williams clone? Or vice versa? ;)

3. How do I spell "vaughan" and is this a second surname?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 27, 2007, 07:07:22 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 27, 2007, 06:11:29 AM
1. What orchestral works (I generally like works for big orchestras) would you recommend to start with?

Symphonies no.5 and 6 (for the contrasting moods) and the Tallis fantasia. Many good recordings, so it's difficult to recommend specific ones, and some of my favourites are parts of cycles (although all the best currently available RVW cycles are budget priced) - others may be able to help.

Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 27, 2007, 06:11:29 AM
2. I've listened to sym. #7 and the London Symphony once a bit. Both reminded me of Rautavaaras Cantus Arcticus. Is Rautavaara a Williams clone? Or vice versa? ;)

I doubt that they knew very much about each others work, if any. There was a lot of cross-pollination between Sibelius and several British composers including RVW (Bantock commissioned Sibelius's 3rd, IIRC, RVW dedicated his 5th to Sibelius, etc), but other than inspiration, there aren't any composers I have heard who resemble even Sibelius particularly closely, much less other Nordic ones.

Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 27, 2007, 06:11:29 AM
3. How do I spell "vaughan" and is this a second surname?

I don't want to be presumptuous, but do you mean pronounce rather than spell (as spellings are easy to find online)? If so, then it is pronounced much like faun (vawn). Vaughan and Williams are both his surname, usually it would be hyphenated but with his name it isn't.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 27, 2007, 07:29:33 AM
Oops, yes, I meant "pronounce", thx.
I'm currently giving the Tallis Fantasia a try, it's by Rafael Fruhbeck de Burgos/LSO, just have downloaded it from emusic. In the (german) wikipedia article I read this piece is one of his most popular ones.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 27, 2007, 07:37:10 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 27, 2007, 07:29:33 AM
I'm currently giving the Tallis Fantasia a try, it's by Rafael Fruhbeck de Burgos/LSO, just have downloaded it from emusic. In the (german) wikipedia article I read this piece is one of his most popular ones.

It's certainly his most well-known work (even Karajan performed it, I think I recall M mentioning), and very interesting, too. His other "major" (in terms of popularity) orchestral work which isn't a symphony is the Lark Ascending, a violin concerto of sorts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 27, 2007, 10:28:28 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 27, 2007, 07:37:10 AM
It's certainly his most well-known work (even Karajan performed it, I think I recall M mentioning)

Furtwängler, Ormandy and Toscanini did, too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 27, 2007, 11:27:08 AM
Thanks so far, haven't had much time this evening, but listened to the fantasia of a tallis theme 2 times. It's very beautiful and I'm looking forward on listening to it again. Oh and I love the end, where the main melody is played solo by a violin... Just beautiful. :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bonehelm on September 27, 2007, 04:40:30 PM
Quote from: sound67 on September 27, 2007, 10:28:28 AM
Furtwängler, Ormandy and Toscanini, too.

sound67, how do you type those 2 dots on top of the a in Furtwangler's name?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 27, 2007, 07:58:52 PM
We have those regular letters (in german/austria/suisse äöüÄÖÜß) on german language keyboards, just a keypress here, ä is to the left of #. If you're on Windows: try ALT+0228 (alternatively look into Start -> Run -> charmap).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 28, 2007, 10:19:41 AM
Can you name some attributes/overall mood of any single symphony? Example: after a quick (incomplete) listen to the No. 7 (antarctica) I think the Antarctica is mysterious. It's easier to have a pretty easy description at first and finding all gems, exceptions and details later...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Montpellier on September 28, 2007, 01:40:16 PM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 28, 2007, 10:19:41 AM
Can you name some attributes/overall mood of any single symphony? Example: after a quick (incomplete) listen to the No. 7 (antarctica) I think the Antarctica is mysterious. It's easier to have a pretty easy description at first and finding all gems, exceptions and details later...
Incidentally, in case you look up a recording it's Sinfonia Antartica.   It was adapted from his music for the Scott of the Antarctic film.


Just a personal view, I still hold the Barbirolli recording in high esteem. 

(and I wish it wouldn't keep bl**dy telling me "last edited" five seconds after I post something then go back (this time by accident and changed nothing), so I'm adding this bit just to justify the last edit line). 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on September 28, 2007, 02:55:47 PM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 27, 2007, 06:11:29 AM
Hi people,

I'm a bloody RVW newbie.

1. What orchestral works (I generally like works for big orchestras) would you recommend to start with?

My listening preferences are nordish composers (Sibelius, Pettersson), Bruckner and Mahler. No need to mention Beethoven.

2. I've listened to sym. #7 and the London Symphony once a bit. Both reminded me of Rautavaaras Cantus Arcticus. Is Rautavaara a Williams clone? Or vice versa? ;)

3. How do I spell "vaughan" and is this a second surname?

Hello Wurstwasser!

If you like the music of Sibelius, Pettersson, Bruckner and Mahler, then I would suggest that you try Vaughan Williams symphonies Nos. 4 and 6. Both of which are big, dramatic works-some people think that the 4th is an angry work which reflects the tensions and fears of the 1930s while the 6th is an bitter reflection on the end of the war and the fears for the future of mankind caused by the new atomic age, although VW himself was dismissive of such extra-musical interpretations! The last movement of the 6th never rises above pianissimo and is hauntingly and eerily beautiful. (I particularly like Andrew Davis's version with the BBC Symphony Orchestra).

You should also try VW's underrated 9th symphony, which is a very substantial, enigmatic work, and 'Job-A Masque for Dancing', which is an incredibly powerful work using a very large orchestra, including a thunderous organ episode, to tremendous effect.

As has been said many times on this thread, you can't really go too far wrong with versions of these works. VW has, at least, been extremely fortunate to have so many very successful interpretations by a number of excellent conductors!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 29, 2007, 12:50:58 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 27, 2007, 10:28:28 AM
Furtwängler, Ormandy and Toscanini did, too.

The Furtwängler must be fascinating - I will look out for it.

Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 28, 2007, 10:19:41 AM
Can you name some attributes/overall mood of any single symphony? Example: after a quick (incomplete) listen to the No. 7 (antarctica) I think the Antarctica is mysterious. It's easier to have a pretty easy description at first and finding all gems, exceptions and details later...

RVW's symphony cycle does have quite a wide range of explicit moods and styles, but his final three symphonies (IMO) would all fall under the "mysterious" description. This is perhaps partly because the first six can have a programmatic "theme" forced on all of them in some way or another (although RVW would not approve of this). The 8th and 9th I have particular difficulty "pinning down", but to me, this is a good thing, as it makes them less one-dimensional. The beginning of the 9th sounds a little threatening, but it is not as overly "dark" as nos. 4 and 6.

A quick (and subjective) overview: the 1st is a rather standard "dramatic" vocal work, voice-heavy, and slightly oratorio-like. This sounds a little unenthusiastic, but I find it much better than many similar works, and it justifies its length well. The 2nd is playful, colourful and boisterous, with moments of introspection. The 3rd is both beautiful with undercurrents of sadness not found in the 5th. The 4th is RVW's most oppressive sounding work. The 5th is unapologetically beautiful. The 6th is highly dramatic, with contrasts between oppressive and uplifting themes in the first movement, and interestingly structured with the quiet last movement.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 29, 2007, 02:42:44 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 29, 2007, 12:50:58 AM
The Furtwängler must be fascinating - I will look out for it.

He performed the work several times, but, AFAIK, never recorded it.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 29, 2007, 02:47:55 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 29, 2007, 02:42:44 AM
He performed the work several times, but, AFAIK, never recorded it.

Thomas

Agh, curses! I forgot that there isn't a lot of archive material from the era in which he lived - nothing like the amount that broadcasting organisations amassed from the 60s onwards. Thanks for the correction :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 08, 2007, 04:41:30 PM
QuoteIn the end, of course, it's the music which speaks to us. Gergiev's Mariinsky Orchestra provides much of it in specially recorded extracts – all the Symphonies, Job, Tallis, The Lark

I can't believe nobody picked up on that!  ;D The Mariinsky doing RVW; that is going to be interesting! Something worth turning my telly on for I think.

And whilst i'm here: all the listening to the 8th symphony the last few months must have opened up a door in my head and given me access to...ta dah...Hindemith. I've listened to the Mathis der Maler Symphony and the Symphonic Metamorphoses (incidentally, I often I think I could marry Herbert Blomstedt for his services) almost daily for the last two weeks. Bleedin' fantastic music. I'm just waiting for the postal strike to end so I can receive my copy of this: 

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41o0p0KFl0L._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on October 09, 2007, 09:20:58 AM
Quote from: The Notorious MOG on October 08, 2007, 04:41:30 PM
I'm just waiting for the postal strike to end so I can receive my copy of this

The strikes are screwing me ATM too :-\
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on October 14, 2007, 03:55:29 PM
Quote from: The Notorious MOG on October 08, 2007, 04:41:30 PM
I can't believe nobody picked up on that!  ;D The Mariinsky doing RVW; that is going to be interesting! Something worth turning my telly on for I think.

And whilst i'm here: all the listening to the 8th symphony the last few months must have opened up a door in my head and given me access to...ta dah...Hindemith. I've listened to the Mathis der Maler Symphony and the Symphonic Metamorphoses (incidentally, I often I think I could marry Herbert Blomstedt for his services) almost daily for the last two weeks. Bleedin' fantastic music. I'm just waiting for the postal strike to end so I can receive my copy of this: 

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41o0p0KFl0L._AA240_.jpg)

Interesting comparison with the 8th.  I hadn't noticed a Hindemith comparison before.  I totally agree about Blomstedt.  I love my Trio set.  Thanks for pointing out this new Abbado set, but have you heard Chailly in the Kammermusik?  I am deciding between him and Abbado.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 25, 2007, 05:41:49 AM
I have just read of the death at the great age of 96 of Ursula Vaughan Williams, Ralph's second wife. Ursula was a very considerable figure in her own right. She befriended VW whilst he was living in Dorking and still looking after his invalid first wife and married the composer after the death of his first wife. During VW's own last few years she encouraged his move back to live in London and his 'Indian Summer' of late compositions which include a number of great works such as the 8th and 9th symphonies and 'Hodie'. Ursula provided the words for the Cantata "The Sons of Light" and for a number of VW's other later works. After his death she worked tirelessly to promote VW's music but also, through the RVW Trust, to encourage the promotion of music by other composers.

There are lengthy(and obviously well-merited) obituaries in today's quality British newspapers. I know that vandermolen corresponded with Ursula and no doubt will wish to comment or her passing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 26, 2007, 06:09:43 AM
See also vandermolen's thread in the General Classical Music Discussion section of this site.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 27, 2007, 02:27:03 PM
Guild are just issuing (at bargain price) a CD including Koussevitsky conducting Vaughan Williams's 5th Symphony. I can hardly wait to hear this (reviewed in new issue of Gramophone).

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=3318
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 03, 2007, 08:58:56 AM
I just listened to the Guild (budget) CD mentioned above of Vaughan Williams's Symphony 5 conducted by Koussevitsky. It is an absolutely fantastic performance; certainly the most sibelian on disc. It is very different to other recordings; a truly great performance in my opinion. There is also a wonderful warmth (as on vinyl) about the transfer of this live 1947 performance.  Don't miss this.  The Tchaikovsky (Francesca da Rimini) and Mussorgsky (Night on Bare Mountain and Khovanschina orch. excerpt.) are also well worth having.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 27, 2007, 09:01:31 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 27, 2007, 07:37:10 AM
It's certainly his most well-known work (even Karajan performed it, I think I recall M mentioning), and very interesting, too.

Yes, wonderful polychoral textures (full strings, vs. a smaller octet, I believe, and a solo quartet) which work best when one is there in the space, from my listening.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 27, 2007, 09:08:54 AM
Fascinating, and since it largely reflects my own thinking/experience, naturally I think Michael Kennedy has a pertinent insight here. From his notes to the Haitink/RVW box:

Quote from: Michael KennedyDuring the first 35 years of [Vaughan Williams's] life the leading symphonists in British music were Stanford and Parry, both of whom were his teachers, but it would be a bold critic who could detect their influence on their pupil when it comes to orchestral music.  We can, however, detect a general influence of Elgar on the composer of A Sea Symphony (1903-09) and A London Symphony (1910-13), particularly from The Dream of Gerontius (1900) rather than from the two symphonies of 1908 and 1911.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 27, 2007, 09:11:16 AM
Stanford's and Parry's influence upon their pupil is probably more obvious in his Anglical liturgical music, not that this does not also have Vaughan Williams's own personality stamped upon it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on November 28, 2007, 04:00:13 AM
I don't know RVW's Mass, and would welcome comments and recording recommendations.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on November 28, 2007, 04:16:54 AM
Quote from: edward on November 28, 2007, 04:00:13 AM
I don't know RVW's Mass, and would welcome comments and recording recommendations.

It's a major work IMO, although pretty British in its functionality and less than epic scope. My favourite recording is the recent Hyperion disc coupled with Bingham's mass (a nice discovery in itself). The Naxos disc is good too, but IIRC the sound quality was a bit weird.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 28, 2007, 04:38:02 AM
Hmm . . . something had me hesitating over that Naxos title.  I don't have a recording of the Mass, either.  I think it would be a stretch to consider it a major work, save perhaps within Vaughan Williams's Liturgical music bucket (it is certainly more substantial than the many hymns and anthems with which he has graced the Anglican tradition). In a way characteristic of practically everything else he wrote for use in church, all the choristers I know who have sung it, report loving it.

Which could be another reason I am not rushing for a recording;  I wonder if it may be a piece to which I respond better as a participant than as a passive listener.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on November 28, 2007, 04:54:30 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 28, 2007, 04:38:02 AM
I think it would be a stretch to consider it a major work, save perhaps within Vaughan Williams's Liturgical music bucket (it is certainly more substantial than the many hymns and anthems with which he has graced the Anglican tradition). In a way characteristic of practically everything else he wrote for use in church, all the choristers I know who have sung it, report loving it.

Which could be another reason I am not rushing for a recording;  I wonder if it may be a piece to which I respond better as a participant than as a passive listener.

Oops, I definitely meant definitely major in his sacred choral output. That and the Te Deum seem to be the most well-known (the latter is much more often recorded). The Hyperion disc (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/details/67503.asp) has both, along with several other pieces. The TT is over 79 mins, so it's good value for money, even if the mass isn't a favourite (it only lasts 23 mins of that duration).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 29, 2007, 02:55:35 AM
The new Naxos recording of Hodie is excellent. The work seems to hang together much more than in the two earlier recording and the recording is streets ahead, especially in relation to the organ contribution. The soloists are all excellent:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Fantasia-Christmas-Carols/dp/B000WPJ6EO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1196286125&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on November 29, 2007, 02:46:33 PM
I understand that Tony Palmer's film about RVW "O Thou Transcendent" will be screened on Channel 5(British TV) on New Year's Day at 12 noon, that it will have received its screen premiere at the Barbican in London on 5th December and that the DVD is now out on Isolde Films(yesterday's Independent newspaper).

Amazon is not yet advertising the DVD. Anyone got any other news?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on November 29, 2007, 10:37:28 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 29, 2007, 02:46:33 PM
I understand that Tony Palmer's film about RVW "O Thou Transcendent" will be screened on Channel 5(British TV) on New Year's Day at 12 noon, that it will have received its screen premiere at the Barbican in London on 5th December and that the DVD is now out on Isolde Films(yesterday's Independent newspaper).

Amazon is not yet advertising the DVD. Anyone got any other news?

Damnit, I get abysmal reception for C5 :'(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 30, 2007, 02:37:40 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 29, 2007, 02:46:33 PM
I understand that Tony Palmer's film about RVW "O Thou Transcendent" will be screened on Channel 5(British TV) on New Year's Day at 12 noon, that it will have received its screen premiere at the Barbican in London on 5th December and that the DVD is now out on Isolde Films(yesterday's Independent newspaper).

Amazon is not yet advertising the DVD. Anyone got any other news?

I ordered it for £10 via the RVW Society (there was a flyer in their last Journal).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 09, 2007, 01:37:32 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 29, 2007, 02:46:33 PM
I understand that Tony Palmer's film about RVW "O Thou Transcendent" will be screened on Channel 5(British TV) on New Year's Day at 12 noon, that it will have received its screen premiere at the Barbican in London on 5th December and that the DVD is now out on Isolde Films(yesterday's Independent newspaper).

Amazon is not yet advertising the DVD. Anyone got any other news?

I have just watched the DVD of "O Thou Transcendent" The Life of Ralph Vaughan Williams over the last couple of days (it lasts over two and a half hours).

It is a beautifully made film and we are not likely to see a better documentary about this composer.  It is difficult to know where to start as it contains so much material but here are some thoughts anyway:

The film starts with some archive film of the great man at a rehearsal (and the same clip returns at the end). Although I have followed the works of Vaughan Williams for 35 years, I have never seen any film of him! There are also some recordings of VW speaking and an actor delivering his autobiographical observations (such as Stanfords remark "All rot my boy" when VW showed him a youthful string quartet that he had agonized over!

The first part of the film contained beautifully filmed (but predictable) sequences, for example, of the English coastline and countryside juxtaposed with (quite lengthy) extracts from "A Sea Symphony", Gloucester Cathedral and the Tallis Fantasia, Nicola Benedetti and The Lark Ascending etc. This reminded me of the approach of Ken Russell in his uncontroversial TV documentary  many years ago. The extracts from symphonies 4,7 and 9 performed by The National Orchestra of Hungarian Radio conducted by Tamas Vasary are outstanding and I hope that they record a cycle one day.

Sian Edwards with the National Youth Orchestra give impassioned performances of lengthy extracts from Job, A London Symphony etc.  There is some wonderful archive film of Boult conducting Symphony 5 and archive interviews with many people, including Imogen Holst, Michael Tippet, (whose early antipathy towards the music of Vaughan Williams was transformed into great admiration and friendship later on). Modern interviews feature Michael Kennedy, Andre Previn, John Adams, Mark Anthony Turnage and Harrison Birthwistle ( whose boyhood visit to Vaughan Williams's house in Dorking is recounted). More surprisingly perhaps, Neil Tennant of the "Pet Shop Boys" and Richard Thompson of "Fairport Convention" discuss their admiration for Vaughan Williams. John adams apparently decided that he wanted to become a composer rather than an engineer after attending his first classical concert in Boston, which opened with the Tallis Fantasia (hearing the Fantasia on Greensleeves was the "Road to Damascus" for Neil Tennant).

I thought that the documentary really came into its own in the second half, with discussions, for example, of Vaughan Williams's attitude to religion (from Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, amongst others) and, in particular the sections which deal with Vaughan Williams's 50+years marriage to Adeline and later friendship, relationship and marriage to Ursula Wood, following Adeline's death). Michael Kennedy and Jerrold Northrop Moore have some very interesting observations and revelations here.  This is not simply idle gossip, but directly related to works like the 4th and 5th symphonies.

There is a long sequence of music and movie extracts from "Scott of the Antarctic" and interviews with Jill Balcon, Evelyn Barbirolli, Roy Douglas, Kiffer Finzi etc etc. I was not sure, however, that the sequence juxtaposing parts of the Sixth Symphony with graphic images of modern warfare,horrific images of famine worked. It seemed a bit contrived to me, but others might think differently.

Stephen Johnson's suggestion that the two repeating chords at the end of the Epilogue of the Sixth Symphony were like an "Amen" which finds no resolution, I thought fascinationg and absolutely convincing.

The late Ursula Vaughan Williams's recent appearance and words about Ralph at the end of the documentary, I found extremely moving...a beautiful end to a great documentary about this wonderful composer. If you like his music, you must see it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on December 09, 2007, 06:09:03 AM
Thank you very much for this review Jeffrey. I already had decided to buy this DVD, now even more so. Unfortunately it still is not for sale at Amazon yet but I saw that it is possible to buy directly through Palmer's website. Anyone familiar with that option?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 09, 2007, 09:09:31 AM
Quote from: Thom on December 09, 2007, 06:09:03 AM
Thank you very much for this review Jeffrey. I already had decided to buy this DVD, now even more so. Unfortunately it still is not for sale at Amazon yet but I saw that it is possible to buy directly through Palmer's website. Anyone familiar with that option?

My pleasure Thom.

The following may be of interest too:

http://www.rvwsociety.com/i-frame/tonypalmer.htm

Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on December 09, 2007, 09:12:52 AM
I thank you again, Jeffrey. An interesting read.

Thom
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on December 09, 2007, 10:07:50 AM
vandermolen's comprehensive review certainly whets my appetite for watching the film!! Not sure whether to wait until New Year's Day and tape the programme or buy the DVD! Hmm, might do both!

Just one question....the advance publicity said that Gergiev's Mariinsky Orchestra was performing extracts from the symphonies and that was an enticing prospect but vandermolen's review mentions a Hungarian orchestra. No Gergiev?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on December 09, 2007, 10:10:04 AM
Many thanks, Jeffrey; that's a must-see!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 09, 2007, 02:25:26 PM
Dundonnell, Thom, Karl, I'm sure you will enjoy the documentary. I found an excellent summary below:

http://arts.independent.co.uk/music/features/article3202040.ece

I gather that the BBC will show their own documentary sometime in 2008; the 50th anniversary of the composer's death.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on December 09, 2007, 04:01:50 PM
Reading the publicity blurb for the RVW film I notice that it says that extracts from the symphonies are played by "Gergiev's Mariinsky Orchestra". It doesn't say that the orchestra is actually conducted by Gergiev himself.

However, vandermolen did say that the orchestra was from the Hungarian State Radio conducted by Vaszary.

SO...no Mariinsky?? I would have loved to hear a good Russian orchestra playing VW!!

Answer please!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 10, 2007, 11:55:45 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 09, 2007, 04:01:50 PM
Reading the publicity blurb for the RVW film I notice that it says that extracts from the symphonies are played by "Gergiev's Mariinsky Orchestra". It doesn't say that the orchestra is actually conducted by Gergiev himself.

However, vandermolen did say that the orchestra was from the Hungarian State Radio conducted by Vaszary.

SO...no Mariinsky?? I would have loved to hear a good Russian orchestra playing VW!!

Answer please!!

Back of the DVD box only mentions The National Orchestra of Hungarian Radio (Vasary) and The National Youth Orchestra (Sian Edwards). The only Russian connection with VW that I know of is Rozhdestvensky's fine old BBC Radio Classics recording of Symphony 5 and Sancta Civitas, but that was with the BBC SO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on December 11, 2007, 02:02:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 09, 2007, 02:25:26 PM
Dundonnell, Thom, Karl, I'm sure you will enjoy the documentary. I found an excellent summary below:

http://arts.independent.co.uk/music/features/article3202040.ece

I gather that the BBC will show their own documentary sometime in 2008; the 50th anniversary of the composer's death.

Thanks again Jeffrey. I couldn't wait  ;) so I ordered on Palmer's website. Looking forward to watching this documentary with X-mas.
Thom
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 22, 2007, 12:07:12 AM
Briefly escaped from Christmas shopping with my wife in Brighton yesterday and happened to "find myself" in a classical CD shop  :) Discovered a VW CD of extraordinary interest amongst the new releases, as it features the composer himself conducting his Symphony 5 (Prom concert 1952) and Dona Nobis Pacem (first radio broadcast 1936). There is certainly a Pearl CD of VW conducting Dona Nobis Pacem, which may be the same performance (this one is advertised as "First authorised release)". But the discovery of VW conducting his Symphony 5 is amazing, as it was thought that his famous recording of Symphony 4, was the only one in existence of him conducting his own symphonies. At the same time I boght a copy of International Record Review (December Issue) in which Piers Burton-Page gives a rave review of the CD ("unmissable"). So, this is a release of huge historic interest, and apparently they are wonderful performances of both works, which shine through despite the age of recordings. I insisted that my wife gives this to me as a Christmas present and really look forward to hearing it.  here is a link:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/SOMM071.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Montpellier on December 22, 2007, 03:20:47 AM
Very nice.  Look forward to your thoughts on this recording.  I've mixed feelings about composers conducting their own works and was considering his fourth.  It was a symphony I didn't like.  I remember thinking it superficial but that could have been the performance - just guessing, it was probably Boult.   I'm about ready to give it another go - not sure if VW's own version is the best start but I'm very tempted with this 5th.   So, hopefully you'll tell more after Christmas! 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 22, 2007, 11:11:02 AM
Quote from: Anacho on December 22, 2007, 03:20:47 AM
Very nice.  Look forward to your thoughts on this recording.  I've mixed feelings about composers conducting their own works and was considering his fourth.  It was a symphony I didn't like.  I remember thinking it superficial but that could have been the performance - just guessing, it was probably Boult.   I'm about ready to give it another go - not sure if VW's own version is the best start but I'm very tempted with this 5th.   So, hopefully you'll tell more after Christmas! 

Thanks, yes, of course I'll report back after Christmas. Symphony No 4 has grown on me over the years although it is not my favourite. There's a great Mitropolous recording on Sony and an excellent one from Bernstein and Stokowski (Cala). For some reason, I really like the American conductors in this work (although Stokowski was born in the UK and was a friend ov VW at the Royal College of Music). For those in the UK don't forget about the very interesting two and a half hour TV documentary about the composer, which is being shown on New Year's Day.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on December 22, 2007, 02:31:10 PM
I first heard the Fifth back when my ears were hungry after other things, where I first listened to the Fourth when I was already attuned to Vaughan Williams's vibrational fields, as it were.  — Just to explain that it isn't an 'even comparison' — as it was, maybe it was the fourth or fifth hearing that I enjoyed the Fifth on its own terms, where I liked the Fourth first I heard it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on December 22, 2007, 02:38:05 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2007, 02:31:10 PM
I first heard the Fifth back when my ears were hungry after other things, where I first listened to the Fourth when I was already attuned to Vaughan Williams's vibrational fields, as it were.  — Just to explain that it isn't an 'even comparison' — as it was, maybe it was the fourth or fifth hearing that I enjoyed the Fifth on its own terms, where I liked the Fourth first I heard it.
I can pretty much copy that.

I found the Fourth and Sixth to be the easiest of RVW's symphonies to love--they clicked almost immediately (the Sixth I recognized as a masterpiece on first listen, the Fourth within a couple more). The Fifth I do like, but I don't think I've ever regarded it as quite on the level of its companions--that, however, probably reflects my taste in music as much as anything.

The RVW symphony that I wish got a better press is the Third, which seems often written off as "cowpat music". I took quite a while to understand it, but now find it a deeply disturbing work with some extremely angry emotions hidden behind the pastoral facade.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on December 22, 2007, 02:40:28 PM
Quote from: edward on December 22, 2007, 02:38:05 PM
The RVW symphony that I wish got a better press is the Third, which seems often written off as "cowpat music". I took quite a while to understand it, but now find it a deeply disturbing work with some extremely angry emotions hidden behind the pastoral facade.

Really a great piece.  That's one I liked right off, though I still cannot really find the right words for it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: techniquest on December 22, 2007, 10:35:02 PM
QuoteFor those in the UK don't forget about the very interesting two and a half hour TV documentary about the composer, which is being shown on New Year's Day.

Don't get too sloshed on New Years Eve; the docu is on at 9:00 in the morning! So if you want to record it without all those annoying ad-breaks (like I do), you'll have to be up early :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 23, 2007, 01:53:48 AM
Michael Kennedy, the VW expert and friend of the composer (who features in the TV documentary) regards !A Pastoral Symphony" as the greatest one. Personally No 6 and 9 are my favouriyes and No 6 one of the great masterpieces of 20th century music. it combines the violence of No 4 and spirituality of No 5 and is a true epic synthesis. ..enough of my pseudo-intellectual comments...it is still great.

My least favourite was No 1 "A Sea symphony" but after watching the documentary (in which it has a high profile), i have been changing my view and coming to see its great qualities.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on December 23, 2007, 07:51:19 AM
Does anyone know anything about the unfinished cello concerto that he composed in his last few months of his life. I don;t think anyone has produced a completion or if a completion is even possible. I don't know who it was composed for either. I'm not talking about the Fantastia on Sussex Folk tunes composed for Casals in the early 30s - (which he planned to expand into a full cocnerto but didn't. One of his least interesting works I think).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 24, 2007, 12:13:13 AM
Quote from: Guido on December 23, 2007, 07:51:19 AM
Does anyone know anything about the unfinished cello concerto that he composed in his last few months of his life. I don;t think anyone has produced a completion or if a completion is even possible. I don't know who it was composed for either. I'm not talking about the Fantastia on Sussex Folk tunes composed for Casals in the early 30s - (which he planned to expand into a full cocnerto but didn't. One of his least interesting works I think).

I rather like that work (Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes) but maybe that's just because I live in Sussex! Have seen a photo of some of the sketches of the Cello Concerto but nothing more.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on December 24, 2007, 03:44:32 AM
Difficult to pick a favourite VW symphony! The Pastoral, 4th, 5th, 6th and 9th are all masterpieces in their different ways and I love them all.
However, I have tremendous affection also for the London Symphony which, in the context of its time of composition, seems to me to be a fantastic achievement. It is so immensely redolent of the passing of an age-the time of Victorian/Edwardian self-confidence and security. The last movement I find almost unbearably moving.

I also have a lot of time for the less well-regarded(by some) Sinfonia Antarctica(No.7). Polar exploration-and particularly the final Scott Expedition to the South Pole-has always interested me. The tragic futility of that journey barely redeemed by the heroism of the dying participants is captured with such eerie pognancy in the symphony that it has always moved me to tears. It may not-strictly speaking-be a symphony at all but who really cares!

(Incidentally, VW as conductor has brought on an idea for another thread!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Montpellier on December 24, 2007, 04:27:12 AM
I've always been happy with the 7th.  It's origins never put me off and I'd guess a lowering of regard, if true, concerns its programme.  Still, Beethoven did one like that and no one complains too much.   

My single aggro is that a score isn't available (so, please, if any members know of a source of the score, let me know.  Thanks).  The orchestration, the voice(s) and application of the organ convince me.  The instrumentation of the opening could not be better.   Perhaps if he hadn't included the wind machine critics may have responded differently.  They do dislike people threatening their roles as windbags. ;)

Perhaps I'm just not listening to it with the word "symphony" blazing in my mind.     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on December 24, 2007, 04:42:42 AM
I have no problems with the Sinfonia antartica.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on December 24, 2007, 05:03:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 24, 2007, 04:42:42 AM
I have no problems with the Sinfonia antartica.

Oh yes, I forgot that there was the spelling issue!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on December 24, 2007, 05:06:44 AM
That's the joy of English;  if you can't think of at least two ways to spell something, you're not sufficiently creative  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Montpellier on December 24, 2007, 05:42:38 AM
Except that Sinfonia Antartica is Italian. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on December 24, 2007, 05:45:36 AM
No matter, an English speaker does not withhold his spelling creativity from any land or tongue.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 24, 2007, 10:08:07 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 24, 2007, 03:44:32 AM
Difficult to pick a favourite VW symphony! The Pastoral, 4th, 5th, 6th and 9th are all masterpieces in their different ways and I love them all.
However, I have tremendous affection also for the London Symphony which, in the context of its time of composition, seems to me to be a fantastic achievement. It is so immensely redolent of the passing of an age-the time of Victorian/Edwardian self-confidence and security. The last movement I find almost unbearably moving.

I also have a lot of time for the less well-regarded(by some) Sinfonia Antarctica(No.7). Polar exploration-and particularly the final Scott Expedition to the South Pole-has always interested me. The tragic futility of that journey barely redeemed by the heroism of the dying participants is captured with such eerie pognancy in the symphony that it has always moved me to tears. It may not-strictly speaking-be a symphony at all but who really cares!

(Incidentally, VW as conductor has brought on an idea for another thread!)

I also have a grim fascination with  British polar disasters and have read many books on the Scott expedition, as a result I like the Antartica Symphony and must agree with you too about A London Symphony and its finale (especially in the restored section, towards the end that Vaughan Williams (mistakenly in my view) excised later on. Heartbreakingly beautiful.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2007, 10:23:33 AM
I'm coming a bit late to this thread, but a mighty interesting read it is!

My RVW favourites - Symphonies 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, - Flos Campi - A Serenade to Music - Job - the Piano Concerto - The Lark Ascending - Tallis Fantasia.

I like the Second for its almost jazzy city atmosphere, which predates Gershwin (American in Paris), the enchanting slow movement and the catastrophic Finale (the original version is indeed even stronger here). The Third is an all-out masterpiece, RVW's 'War Requiem' as my good friend Christo says. The Fourth is wonderful for its dark-and-light, its alternation of grimness and vision. The Sixth is the second all-out masterpiece. The Eighth entrances with its sound-world where an almost childlike playfulness sits next to wise and weary introspection. The Ninth is a nobly-cryptic conclusion.

It's a pity I can't see the documentary here in the Netherlands...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on December 27, 2007, 09:06:07 AM
My copy of 'O Thou Transcendent', the film by Tony Palmer about life and works of Ralph Vaughan Williams, arrived om the 24th. An impressive documentary which I can heartily recommend to the RVW fans (it will be broadcasted on Channel Five on new years day so I gather but no chance to see that channel in the Netherlands). Touching to see the man himself on film.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on December 27, 2007, 09:08:21 AM
Good to see that Sinterklaas did the right thing by you!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on December 27, 2007, 09:11:44 AM
yes he was just in time ho ho ho  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on December 27, 2007, 09:23:15 AM
oh yeah, almost forgot.....

just finished my set of Vaugan Williams symphonies, conducted by Previn. I can't say everything after one listening, but I have a few thoughts.

i have mixed feelings about his music- it can either be gloriously mysterious or boring (sounding like film music).... it mixes between the two very often, back and forth. My favorites are the 2nd and 6th, least favorite possibly the 8th. I was interested in getting this set possibly ever since i read the review Karl wrote about concert playing the 6th... as for the last movement, i see what Karl meant (and even the writer of the liner notes, who also sounded enthusiastic).... that one obviously belongs to the "glorious mysteriousness" of his music  0:) (possibly my favorite movement of the whole set)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 27, 2007, 02:23:39 PM
I have today played my new CD of Vaughan Williams conducts his own Fifth Symphony and Dona Nobis Pacem.  One critic has described this recording of Symphony No 5 as the best performance of any Vaughan Williams symphony on record. It is certainly one of the greatest, as it possesses an eloquence and insight unlike any other version of this work (a recently released Koussevitsky performance is similarly insightful in a more sibelian way). If you are attuned to this music, you have to hear this performance. The opening and closing movements have a concentrated power that I have not heard elsewhere and, throughout the work there is a greater warmth than is conveyed in other recordings 9and there are many). The 1952 recording (1936 in the case of Dona Nobis Pacem) has been successfully remastered and the occasional surface noise does not detract from a revelatory performance from the 1952 Proms in London. Strongly recommended to all VW fans.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sydney Grew on December 27, 2007, 09:41:54 PM
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste. The only further point we might make here is that the final movement does seem to go on rather too long. Perhaps if the thematic material were more memorable - more beautiful - we would not so much mind the length.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on December 27, 2007, 09:46:57 PM
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 27, 2007, 09:41:54 PM
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste. The only further point we might make here is that the final movement does seem to go on rather too long. Perhaps if the thematic material were more memorable - more beautiful - we would not so much mind the length.


Who is 'we'?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on December 27, 2007, 09:52:28 PM
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 27, 2007, 09:41:54 PM
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste. The only further point we might make here is that the final movement does seem to go on rather too long. Perhaps if the thematic material were more memorable - more beautiful - we would not so much mind the length.


do you recommend another instrument to play the saxophone line? or should that line not exist?

I couldn't disagree more with your (plural) opinion(s) on the fourth movement. It may be one of the most beautiful movements I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Montpellier on December 27, 2007, 11:16:07 PM
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 27, 2007, 09:41:54 PM
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste. The only further point we might make here is that the final movement does seem to go on rather too long. Perhaps if the thematic material were more memorable - more beautiful - we would not so much mind the length.

I think VW knew what he was up to and chose the saxophone probably to give the line a malign sneering tone.  No matter what you think, he heard this work performed suffuciently to reach the decision in spite of several revisions made to the movement.   He was notorious for making adjustments during rehearsal and would have allocated the part elsewhere if he wanted a different result.  As for the last movement, problems occur more in interpretation and in at least one spot I think he did instruct rather poorly in the score.   But again, the fact is that he rehearsed and heard the work often in his lifetime, was friends with people who conducted it, so presumably we have to recognise that, as composer, it was what he wanted.   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on December 28, 2007, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 27, 2007, 09:41:54 PM
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste. The only further point we might make here is that the final movement does seem to go on rather too long. Perhaps if the thematic material were more memorable - more beautiful - we would not so much mind the length.


A juvenile criticism. BTW, it's Dr. VAUGHAN Williams. You don't even know that, how would you understand the music?

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sydney Grew on December 28, 2007, 02:44:15 AM
Quote from: sound67 on December 28, 2007, 02:05:52 AMA juvenile criticism. By the way, it's Dr. VAUGHAN Williams. You don't even know that, how would you understand the music?

Juvenile? That must be a recommendation rather than anything else must it not. And perhaps the member might care just to cast an eye upon the appended pages, wherein he will note the appearance of the phrase "Dr. Williams" not once, but two times! Evidently the may we say overconfident Member has not previously encountered the expression . . .

(http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w164/sydgrew/DoctorW.jpg)

As far as understanding the music is concerned, we who have so many hours of study behind us do despite what the Member says manage to accomplish that quite well too thank you. We can no doubt tell the group all kinds of new things about it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on December 28, 2007, 08:20:58 AM
so

uh...

you want me to post every page I can find that says Dr. Vaughan Williams?

Or do I have to add more boldprint on words of emphasis so you can understand that?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2007, 08:30:10 AM
Quote from: btpaul674 on December 28, 2007, 08:20:58 AM
so

uh...

you want me to post every page I can find that says Dr. Vaughan Williams?

Or do I have to add more boldprint on words of emphasis so you can understand that?

Be on your guard adding more boldprint! Remember the famous line from the Zork computer game? "It is pitch black, you are likely to be eaten by a Grue"...

Jez
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on December 28, 2007, 08:40:09 AM
HA!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on December 28, 2007, 08:48:59 AM
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 27, 2007, 09:41:54 PM
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste.

Look, when you mean "I", say "I", all right?  You're coming across as pompous and fatuous.

That said, it is not only your use of The Allegedly Modest We which is pompous and fatuous in these remarks.  What you cannot abide, and what you feel, do not compromise the "perfection" of the symphony;  those are just snares unto your own sonic feet.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on December 28, 2007, 12:43:05 PM
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 27, 2007, 09:41:54 PM
The Sixth Symphony of Dr. Williams is on the whole pleasant to listen to but by no means perfect. We have no objection to its rumpty-tumpty second subject, but cannot abide the saxophone solo, which is we feel a gross error of taste. The only further point we might make here is that the final movement does seem to go on rather too long. Perhaps if the thematic material were more memorable - more beautiful - we would not so much mind the length.

you're hilarious!  :D
in fact, you're making me laugh uncontrollably for extended periods of time.... We have no objections to that, sir!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on December 28, 2007, 12:47:05 PM
Rumpty-tumpty is sooooo last century.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on December 28, 2007, 12:52:42 PM
We have no objections to Thai prostitutes because they emit good vibrational fields.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on December 28, 2007, 12:53:58 PM
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on December 28, 2007, 12:52:42 PM
We have no objections to Thai prostitutes because they emit good vibrational fields.
my new signature......

anyways, what's strange about the last movement of RVW's 6th is that despite being quiet and 10 min. long, it was over before i knew it! And we don't think the thematic material isn't beautiful because it is!  >:(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on December 28, 2007, 01:05:35 PM
Syd wouldn't think the last movement too long, if there was more rumpty-tumpty bits.

We I don't think the Sixth Symphony at all too long.

Nope, not at all.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2007, 01:13:14 PM
We loves it too, the preciousss Sixth symphony by Dr. Williamsss.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on December 28, 2007, 01:22:45 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on December 28, 2007, 01:55:36 PM
I second the  ;D as originally posted by Greg. I can't read one of Syd's posts without thinking of golum or smeagol or whatever his name is.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Montpellier on December 28, 2007, 02:11:41 PM
We think the thikth thymphony ith thikty-thikth perthent thucthethful.

Itth the firtht that putths uth to thleep.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on December 28, 2007, 03:46:31 PM
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 28, 2007, 02:44:15 AMWe can no doubt tell the group all kinds of new things about it!

Kindly keep your "observations" to yourself.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on December 28, 2007, 03:53:17 PM
Quote from: sound67 on December 28, 2007, 03:46:31 PM
yourself.
ourselves.







....(and that's what he's doing)...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: longears on December 28, 2007, 04:05:11 PM
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 28, 2007, 02:44:15 AM
We can no doubt tell the group all kinds of new things about it!

Promises, promises....   ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pierre on January 01, 2008, 11:41:49 AM
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 28, 2007, 02:44:15 AM
Juvenile? That must be a recommendation rather than anything else must it not. And perhaps the member might care just to cast an eye upon the appended pages, wherein he will note the appearance of the phrase "Dr. Williams" not once, but two times! Evidently the may we say overconfident Member has not previously encountered the expression . . .

(http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w164/sydgrew/DoctorW.jpg)

As far as understanding the music is concerned, we who have so many hours of study behind us do despite what the Member says manage to accomplish that quite well too thank you. We can no doubt tell the group all kinds of new things about it!


I'm not quite sure what you're trying to prove by scanning pages from a book by one Sydney Grew,  published by T.N. Foulis Ltd (Edinburgh and London) 'in October Nineteen hundred and twenty-two' (so the copyright page says in my copy, bought at some second hand bookshop or other as no doubt yours was). You're almost certainly a troll, but clearly one more amusing than annoying.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on January 01, 2008, 11:46:06 AM
Quote from: Pierre on January 01, 2008, 11:41:49 AM
. . . but clearly one more amusing than annoying.  ;)

Oh, verily, yea!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on January 01, 2008, 01:52:42 PM
Maybe he's Eric 2.0? Like an Eric that has transformed?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 02, 2008, 02:07:45 AM
Sorry to interrupt the cheery banter but did anyone see the TV documentary on New Year's Day? (UK)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on January 02, 2008, 02:42:49 AM
I bought myself the DVD Jeffrey, since Channel 5 is not on my cable. I was not dissapointed, it is a remarkable documentary. Amazing (and admirable) that the TV people are willing to broadcast this film of more than 2 hours length for - probably - a limited audience.

Thom
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 02, 2008, 03:53:57 AM
Quote from: Thom on January 02, 2008, 02:42:49 AM
I bought myself the DVD Jeffrey, since Channel 5 is not on my cable. I was not dissapointed, it is a remarkable documentary. Amazing (and admirable) that the TV people are willing to broadcast this film of more than 2 hours length for - probably - a limited audience.

Thom

I agree Thom. I wonder if the BBC (who rejected the documentary) will do their own tribute in due course. Classic FM featured Vaughan Williams yesterday but, much as I love the work, I do not want to hear "The Lark Ascending" over and over again!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Hector on January 02, 2008, 06:48:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 02, 2008, 02:07:45 AM
Sorry to interrupt the cheery banter but did anyone see the TV documentary on New Year's Day? (UK)

Half of it.

What a ridiculous time to have it on? Channel 5, though.

It should be repeated once a day for at least a week so that anyone who wants can record it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on January 02, 2008, 07:36:29 AM
I put a video into my machine and began taping at 9.00am only to find that the tape I had inserted was in fact a pre-recorded film.
Fortunately for the film it was not erased but the VW programme was of course not taped either!
(Blames New Year's celebrations the night before!)

I did not watch the film since I was trying to catch up on lost sleep. Calamity all round!!

Never mind...will just have to buy the DVD now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 02, 2008, 10:48:36 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 02, 2008, 07:36:29 AM
I put a video into my machine and began taping at 9.00am only to find that the tape I had inserted was in fact a pre-recorded film.
Fortunately for the film it was not erased but the VW programme was of course not taped either!
(Blames New Year's celebrations the night before!)

I did not watch the film since I was trying to catch up on lost sleep. Calamity all round!!

Never mind...will just have to buy the DVD now.


:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on January 13, 2008, 08:23:09 AM

     I think the saxophones in the 6th (and the 9th) are wonderful. They also have a leading role in Job. Perhaps RVW intended the profane associations produced in the listeners mind. He must have had his reasons. Anyway, they sound great.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: rw1883 on January 18, 2008, 08:15:25 AM
I'm starting my Vaughan Williams journey this week beginning with the symphonies.  I'm already familiar with symphonies 1, 2, & 5; the Lark Ascending, Thomas Tallis, Job, and a few other pieces. 

Following the advice of a few members from this thread I bought complete symphonies by Boult (EMI & Decca), Haitink, Previn, and Handley.  I'm probably in the minority, but I have to say that "A Sea Symphony" is a great beginning to VW's cycle!  I'm listening to the Haitink and it's amazing (not that I don't like the Boult from both sets).  The more I listen to this symphony, the more I appreciate and love it (and I still haven't heard the Previn and Handley).  Any other suggestions on #1?  I've read good things about Spano.

I have a bad habit of re-listening to performances/interpretations so this venture might take awhile...thanks again for the many suggestions.

Paul
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on January 18, 2008, 08:19:14 AM
Quote from: rw1883 on January 18, 2008, 08:15:25 AM
I have a bad habit of re-listening to performances/interpretations

Why is that a bad habit, Paul?  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 18, 2008, 08:35:36 AM
Quote from: rw1883 on January 18, 2008, 08:15:25 AM
I'm starting my Vaughan Williams journey this week beginning with the symphonies.  I'm already familiar with symphonies 1, 2, & 5; the Lark Ascending, Thomas Tallis, Job, and a few other pieces. 

Following the advice of a few members from this thread I bought complete symphonies by Boult (EMI & Decca), Haitink, Previn, and Handley.  I'm probably in the minority, but I have to say that "A Sea Symphony" is a great beginning to VW's cycle!  I'm listening to the Haitink and it's amazing (not that I don't like the Boult from both sets).  The more I listen to this symphony, the more I appreciate and love it (and I still haven't heard the Previn and Handley).  Any other suggestions on #1?  I've read good things about Spano.

I have a bad habit of re-listening to performances/interpretations so this venture might take awhile...thanks again for the many suggestions.

Paul

I like the Handley Sea Symphony and the Naxos recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on January 20, 2008, 10:26:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2008, 08:35:36 AM
I like the Handley Sea Symphony and the Naxos recording.

     Both are very good, with a slight edge to Handley, IMO. The Boult/EMI would get a higher rating with me if there wasn't a problem with the recorded sound of the baritone. There's a megaphone quality to it. Otherwise I think it would be ranked with the best.
     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on January 22, 2008, 05:13:56 AM
Quote from: drogulus on January 13, 2008, 08:23:09 AM
     I think the saxophones in the 6th (and the 9th) are wonderful. They also have a leading role in Job. Perhaps RVW intended the profane associations produced in the listeners mind. He must have had his reasons. Anyway, they sound great.

I don't have any profane associations with the saxophone. I think it's a wonderful instrument and am charmed that RVW made such effective use of it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 22, 2008, 05:54:32 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on January 22, 2008, 05:13:56 AM
I don't have any profane associations with the saxophone. I think it's a wonderful instrument and am charmed that RVW made such effective use of it.

Hugo Alfvén made haunting use of the soprano saxophone in his Third Swedish Rhapsody. No jazz or profane associations in sight (or within hearing).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on January 22, 2008, 02:23:11 PM


     I didn't mean profane as bad, just popular or common as opposed to sacred, for instance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: paulb on January 22, 2008, 05:51:43 PM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on January 22, 2008, 05:13:56 AM
I don't have any profane associations with the saxophone. I think it's a wonderful instrument and am charmed that RVW made such effective use of it.

The 6th , as well as the 4th are powerful testimonies of Vaughan Williams ability to tap into modern modalities of disonnance. I happen to love all the syms, even the 1st , which some over at amazon chat board has dubbed a  'dud', 'un-listenable"...but i wonder if the poem 's content (mentions God)has something underlying about these strong resistances... ::). The finale of the 1st does lose some steam, but the work is engaging and the Walt Whitman poem is very imaginative. i love the poem.

You guys ought to consider hearing VW's concerto for...TUBA!

i caught it on the radio one day and was very impressed,  VW's has the Tuba playing  his usual lovely passages. There's 2 or 3 recordings, can't recall the excellent one i heard.
I need to order that concerto myself, and soon.
The finest complete set IMHO is the Thomson/London. I've heard various others, the Thomson is my definitive favorite. The London SO  played their hearts out for Thomson. when a  orch really likes the conductor, this atmosphere of comradiere shows up in the recording. Like what the Columbia did for Bruno Walter.
Also   love Barbirolli's 5th/Philharmonia.
Did once sort of, , but not now do i like the Lark Ascending.  NPR plays it all the time
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 22, 2008, 10:57:38 PM
Quote from: paulb on January 22, 2008, 05:51:43 PM
The 6th , as well as the 4th are powerful testimonies of Vaughan Williams ability to tap into modern modalities of disonnance. I happen to love all the syms, even the 1st , which some over at amazon chat board has dubbed a  'dud', 'un-listenable"...but i wonder if the poem 's content (mentions God)has something underlying about these strong resistances... ::). The finale of the 1st does lose some steam, but the work is engaging and the Walt Whitman poem is very imaginative. i love the poem.

You guys ought to consider hearing VW's concerto for...TUBA!

i caught it on the radio one day and was very impressed,  VW's has the Tuba playing  his usual lovely passages. There's 2 or 3 recordings, can't recall the excellent one i heard.
I need to order that concerto myself, and soon.
The finest complete set IMHO is the Thomson/London. I've heard various others, the Thomson is my definitive favorite. The London SO  played their hearts out for Thomson. when a  orch really likes the conductor, this atmosphere of comradiere shows up in the recording. Like what the Columbia did for Bruno Walter.
Also   love Barbirolli's 5th/Philharmonia.
Did once sort of, , but not now do i like the Lark Ascending.  NPR plays it all the time

Agree with you and nice to see someone appreciating Bryden Thomson, a much underrated conductor in my view.  His VW No 6 was BBC Music Guide 1000 best CDs choice for this work. Barbirolli's Philharmonia Symphony 5 (EMI) is the best, although you must hear the newly released versions of this symphony conducted by Vaughan Williams himself, a wonderful discovery and Koussevitsky's great sibelian interpretation. My favourite Tuba Concerto is that played by John Fletcher with Andre Previn although versions conducted by Thomson and Barbirolli are very good also.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on January 23, 2008, 03:51:07 AM
Quote from: paulb on January 22, 2008, 05:51:43 PM
I happen to love all the syms . . . .

Splendid, Paul!

Quote from: paulbYou guys ought to consider hearing VW's concerto for...TUBA!

I have;  it's agreeable listening, pretty 'workaday Vaughan Williams' IMO.  But one understands why tuba players are grateful for some good lit, and this is a good concerto.

Quote from: paulbDid once sort of, , but not now do i like the Lark Ascending.  NPR plays it all the time.

I well understand the phenomenon, Paul!  Don't throw the good music baby out with the numbskulled programming bathwater!  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: paulb on January 24, 2008, 06:33:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 23, 2008, 03:51:07 AM
Splendid, Paul!

I have;  it's agreeable listening, pretty 'workaday Vaughan Williams' IMO.  But one understands why tuba players are grateful for some good lit, and this is a good concerto.

I well understand the phenomenon, Paul!  Don't throw the good music baby out with the numbskulled programming bathwater!  ;)

karl i went through muti listenings of the 1st sym, really can't find it as "unlistenable/dud" , at least 2 amazon members giving such reactions, over over-reactions I should say.
The  Whitman poem is quite incredible, panthestic in scope. VW scored it 1903-1906 and  made several revisions over the next several yrs. 66 minutes , oratorio/symphony.

If we take the incredible, beautiful  5th off the table in considering the 9 syms, , I'm not sure if its the 4 or 6 sym that is my favorite. I believe , many here will give the 4th the edge  and that most here giving the 6th next place of distinction in  excellence.

I'm listening to the Thomson 5th, can't say it takes  second to the Barbirolli.

Just unwraped a  cd had for some time, Andrew Davis/BBC in the 4th, Lark, Fantasia Tallis. We'll see how this 4th goes.
I listened to the ubiquitous Mitropolous/NY Phil Strings in the Tallis last night. I know the Barbirolli late 50's, I prefer the Mitropoulos. Hoping the Davis provides a  good  second alternative experience.
also reviewed last night the 1950's of 4th/Mitropolous/NY, 6th/Stokowski/NY. Both very good.
I need to ck a  passage in the 4th with Thomson. I think Mitropolous took that dreamy section in the andante/2 nd move, too fast, Thomson allows the music to drift into nothingness, sur-realistic.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on January 24, 2008, 07:36:18 AM
I think people having problems with symphony no.1 is due to:

1. Being unwilling to accept that it is not exactly the same as RVW's mature symphony style (a little Elgar-ish)
2. It being much longer than the other syms, so requires more patience and attention
3. It being very chorally balanced "that's not a real symphony! I've heard some very boring oratorios this long, I'm not gonna give this a chance", etc

It's certainly not due to the objective qualities of the work - overall it's a very good setting, and very transparent despite its size. It's one of my least favourite of his cycle, but I still think it's very good.

I'm glad that you like RVW btw, Paul :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: paulb on January 24, 2008, 07:45:24 AM
Quote from: Lethe on January 24, 2008, 07:36:18 AM
I think people having problems with symphony no.1 is due to:

1. Being unwilling to accept that it is not exactly the same as RVW's mature symphony style (a little Elgar-ish)
2. It being much longer than the other syms, so requires more patience and attention
3. It being very chorally balanced "that's not a real symphony! I've heard some very boring oratorios this long, I'm not gonna give this a chance", etc

It's certainly not due to the objective qualities of the work - overall it's a very good setting, and very transparent despite its size. It's one of my least favourite of his cycle, but I still think it's very good.

I'm glad that you like RVW btw, Paul :)

Lethe
I do think you've hit on the issues surrounding the 1st sym/oratorio. "least favorite' may hold for many of the RVW community. The poem content is heavy weight and I love the pantheistic ideas. that alone gives some importance to the work.
Though I may be found more often in the modernist camp , my admiration for RVW has never diminished.

Just listened to the opening few minutes of the 6th/Andrew davis/BBC. In spite of the fact that the BBC is my fav british orch, this 6th doesn;t hold up well in the opening few minutes.
The Tallis fantasy offers more consideration.
I also have the 4/5 syms Davis/BBC, which i will proceed to.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2008, 10:58:39 AM
Paulb,

Which version of No 6 do you like best?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: paulb on January 24, 2008, 12:47:14 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2008, 10:58:39 AM
Paulb,

Which version of No 6 do you like best?

There's always that idiocyncratic element involved in critical comparison.
Then others havea   certain bias favoring one conductor, while others believe they have heard the best with the only one they actually own or heard.
If you ask 5 RVW fans, which is their fav 6th, you;'ll get 5 different answers.
I've not heard either Boult, nor Haitink's, not Previn's, I'm sure all are fine performances.
I once thought the Stokowski/NY/1949 was 'exceptional", now yrs later i get to know that recording along side the Thomson, and i now I can hear the weaknesses of the Stokowski.
For me persoanlly I know if i heard them all, I'd walk with the Bryden Thomson. I felt this way at first hearing the entire set 2 yrs ago, and that opinion still holds. Sure there may be very little to squabble over in the various best of 6th's, but to me , some of the tinest nuances, or lack thereof, all begin to add up once the symphony has settled into your head.
Again, there's no need for anyone to sell their Boult sets, Haitink sets for the Thomson. Its just that for me Thomson seems to most consistently get at the heart of the score. "the conductor disappears" thing.
Down the road i'll try to hear the Boult and Haitink, just as  a  matter of being fair in the matter. My hunch tells me I'm on with the one best suited to me, but since the 6th is quite an exceptional sym, its of good that i try to seek out others with as fine a  approach as the Thomson.
I'm sure amazon offers used low price,  $ 3 or 4,  on both conductors.

which recordings do you have?
Did some of what i said make sense. Did you compare a  few already and just double cking what you found, against what i've found?

I did some comparisons of the 5th yrs ago, the Barbirolli came out top, but the diffs were minimial. Yet enough to chosse the Barbirolli over the others. The Thomson equals the Barbirolli.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: paulb on January 24, 2008, 12:55:07 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 07, 2007, 01:27:09 AM
The Sixth, IMHO is VW's greatest symphony as it combines the violence of No 4 with the spirituality of No 5, the result is both compelling and disquieting. Hickox is generally v good but this is his weakest performance I think. Boult's Decca is the best but v good versions from Haitink, Thomson and Davis.

ahh I just now see your post June 7.

i'll try to obtain the Boult.
Andrew Davis, right? Or Colin?
Andrew would never work for me, in spite of the finest british orch, the BBC.
I'll look over my Haitink 7th.
Not sure i could compare favs between the 4,5,6 syms. i love each equally, but its the 5th that holds special meanings. has been of great importance for over 2 decades now. The 4, 6 I just recently came around to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on January 25, 2008, 09:35:24 AM
I didn't consider checking Operashare for any RVW recordings, but it threw up quite a few (mostly songs/expired links). As not everybody uses it, I've rehosted the Symphony No.6 by Colin Davis/Sinfonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, as I find the performance noteworthy, and it may interest somebody...

Performance details (http://www.mediafire.com/?3kz4luxizjd)
I. Allegro (http://www.mediafire.com/?2yvr8zm9p1x)
II. Moderato (http://www.mediafire.com/?71p4l5ym94x)
III. Scherzo: Allegro vivace (http://www.mediafire.com/?ar2dvrzbmwt)
IV. Epilogue: Moderato (http://www.mediafire.com/?8yiic0ybmn0)

It is perhaps the "heaviest" sounding recording of the work that I've heard, perhaps a fair part due to the live conditions - it has a very ferocious momentum and weight at times, and the German orchestra (playing RVW, WTH!? 0:)) play very confidently considering that this work must be relatively unfamiliar to them. Another thing of particular interest (IMO) is how prominent the saxophone solo in the scherzo is. This symphony is just brilliant, it's great to hear a non-British orchestra play it. The live broadcast recording is very good, the mp3 bitrate is 256, which is quite a bit nicer than the usual 192.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on January 25, 2008, 09:46:40 AM
Whiskey Tango Hotel, eh?  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: paulb on January 25, 2008, 12:15:48 PM
Quote from: Lethe on January 25, 2008, 09:35:24 AM
I didn't consider checking Operashare for any RVW recordings, but it threw up quite a few (mostly songs/expired links). As not everybody uses it, I've rehosted the Symphony No.6 by Colin Davis/Sinfonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, as I find the performance noteworthy, and it may interest somebody...



The Rundfunk is one of my favorite german orchestras.
Much better than either the Berlin Phil, and far better than the Berlin SO.
Lets see the 1st movement is now into the....3rd minute
So far, this performance does not work for me at all.
I know Colin Davis very well. His Mozart sacred on Philips is excellent.
but I am afraid in this 6th sym, it does not work.
Sorry no cigar.
Bryden Thompson, 1st place.
I guess Vander wants me to get the Boult.
Its now in the 6th minute, thats quite enough.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on January 25, 2008, 12:25:31 PM
Ouch! :D An interesting reaction, none the less...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: paulb on January 25, 2008, 01:04:36 PM
Quote from: Lethe on January 25, 2008, 12:25:31 PM
Ouch! :D An interesting reaction, none the less...

they don't call me  the cantankerous critic for nothin' :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on January 26, 2008, 07:09:49 AM
I wish I thought of this earlier so I could ask as an addendum to a previous post: does anyone know why the Norfolk Rhapsody no.2 wasn't recorded until 2003, by Chandos? I checked their website but it doesn't seem to have any notes to explain why. Unfinished, or just plain worse?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on January 28, 2008, 12:42:23 PM
 
     
Quote from: Lethe on January 26, 2008, 07:09:49 AM
I wish I thought of this earlier so I could ask as an addendum to a previous post: does anyone know why the Norfolk Rhapsody no.2 wasn't recorded until 2003, by Chandos? I checked their website but it doesn't seem to have any notes to explain why. Unfinished, or just plain worse?

     According to Michael Kennedy in the liner notes of a CD I have, RVW allowed only the first of the 3 Norfolk Rhapsodies to be published. The 2nd was last performed in 1914 according to Chandos (again MK provides the notes), and 2 pages of the score are missing. The Chandos recording is an edited and partially recomposed version.

     Here (http://www.theclassicalshop.net/pdf/CHAN%2010001.pdf) are the Chandos notes, from the website (the left pane of the CD page offers downloads of the cover and notes).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on January 28, 2008, 01:13:23 PM
Quote from: drogulus on January 28, 2008, 12:42:23 PM
     According to Michael Kennedy in the liner notes of a CD I have, RVW allowed only the first of the 3 Norfolk Rhapsodies to be published. The 2nd was last performed in 1914 according to Chandos (again MK provides the notes), and 2 pages of the score are missing. The Chandos recording is an edited and partially recomposed version.

     Here (http://www.theclassicalshop.net/pdf/CHAN%2010001.pdf) are the Chandos notes, from the website (the left pane of the CD page offers downloads of the cover and notes).

Thanks! Shame that the RVW society doesn't list the third online, which I presume is not likely to be played anytime soon, if at all. Does the completion of the second compare decently to the first? I listened to the 1 minute sample on Amazon, but as could be expected, it indicated very little :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on January 29, 2008, 04:30:06 PM
My understanding is that the score of VW's 3rd Norfolk Rhapsody is lost. It was first performed in Cardiff in 1907 with the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by the composer and was performed in London in 1912 at the Quuen's Hall conducted by Balfour Gardiner. There is further information in Michael Kennedy's "Catalogue of the Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams".

One never knows; the manuscript might turn up again one day. Clearly it was not published.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 03, 2008, 04:46:07 AM
If you like the Tallis Fantasia, you have to listen to the Elegy on the CD below.  The Symphony is magnificent too, a powerful, craggy monolithic masterpiece (I don't use this word lightly) which eschews all sentimentality, with echoes of Havergal Brian (a friend of Truscott's), Nielsen and Bruckner.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Truscott-Orchestral-Works-Harold/dp/B00000462S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1202046033&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 03, 2008, 05:17:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 03, 2008, 04:46:07 AM
If you like the Tallis Fantasia, you have to listen to the Elegy on the CD below.  The Symphony is magnificent too, a powerful, craggy monolithic masterpiece (I don't use this word lightly) which eschews all sentimentality, with echoes of Havergal Brian (a friend of Truscott's), Nielsen and Bruckner.

The Elegy is wonderful indeed. I have both the Marco Polo CD with the orchestral works and the one with Truscott's chamber music - it's been a while since I listened to them, but I remember them being models of clarity, concision and power.

Btw - has anybody heard Truscott's piano sonatas?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on February 03, 2008, 06:05:36 AM
Indeed it was by a recommendation on this forum that I bought the Truscott cd. Never regretted it one moment. The elegy is on my playlist often, wonderful music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 03, 2008, 11:11:27 AM
Jezetha and Thom

Glad you liked the Elegy and the magnificent Symphony.

I have the Marco Polo chamber disc also, which is very enjoyable.

How sad that his music was almost completely neglected in his lifetime.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2008, 01:43:05 PM
Slightly OT: the subject of RVW's use of the saxophone was raised earlier in the thread. I just listened to Eric Coates' Saxo-Rhapsody (Groves, Brymer, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic), a wonderful piece. Anyone know this?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2008, 01:15:04 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 11, 2008, 01:43:05 PM
Slightly OT: the subject of RVW's use of the saxophone was raised earlier in the thread. I just listened to Eric Coates' Saxo-Rhapsody (Groves, Brymer, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic), a wonderful piece. Anyone know this?

No, but I will look out for it.  Thanks
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on February 14, 2008, 04:26:58 PM
Just listened to the Serenade to Music in it's orchestral setting. It just doesn't get any better than that!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on February 15, 2008, 03:50:58 PM
Quote from: Guido on February 14, 2008, 04:26:58 PM
Just listened to the Serenade to Music in it's orchestral setting. It just doesn't get any better than that!

Sure it does, with the voices as in the usual setting.  :) 

Without the voices it's like a trifle without the sherry, tasty but just not as intoxicating as it can be.  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on February 16, 2008, 02:46:54 AM
Quote from: The Notorious MOG on February 15, 2008, 03:50:58 PM
Sure it does, with the voices as in the usual setting.  :) 

Without the voices it's like a trifle without the sherry, tasty but just not as intoxicating as it can be.  0:)

Indeedie, the choral version is one of the few pieces that I find to be out of this world :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ephemerid on February 19, 2008, 12:49:25 PM
All this talk of RVW here and on the RVW symphony thread has gotten my appetite worked up-- I am familiar with only a few of his works (shame on me, I know-- the works I have heard I have loved and I adore his setting of "Silent Noon")-- so I downloaded Hickox's recording of the third symphony and oboe concerto for starters. 

I'm very excited about listening to it closely when I get home tonight!  ;D

CORRECTION: Not Hickox, but Bryden Thompson (on Chandos)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on February 19, 2008, 12:53:35 PM
Silent Noon.........yes an especially beautiful song. Whose recording do you have?

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ephemerid on February 19, 2008, 01:05:51 PM
Quote from: knight on February 19, 2008, 12:53:35 PM
Silent Noon.........yes an especially beautiful song. Whose recording do you have?

Mike

Ian Bostridge in a crystal clear tenor.  :)  Back when I was a music student in the early 90s I sang this song & was happy when I found out he had done a recording of it.  This and Schubert's "Nacht und Traume" are two of the most beautiful art songs ever written IMO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on February 19, 2008, 01:10:59 PM
I also have sung the piece. I am mostly allergic to Bostridge. Terfel speeds through it and Janet Baker, who is recorded from a concert had a catch in her throat during it.

Another wonderful WV song is The Infinite Shining Heavens. Terfel gives that one the best performance I have ever heard of the song.

Nacht und Traume is a stunner.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ephemerid on February 19, 2008, 01:14:50 PM
Quote from: knight on February 19, 2008, 01:10:59 PM
I also have sung the piece. I am mostly allergic to Bostridge. Terfel speeds through it and Janet Baker, who is recorded from a concert had a catch in her throat during it.

Another wonderful WV song is The Infinite Shining Heavens. Terfel gives that one the best performance I have ever heard of the song.

Nacht und Traume is a stunner.

Mike
Oooh!  I'll check that out then!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on February 22, 2008, 10:05:14 AM
Quote from: Guido on February 14, 2008, 04:26:58 PMJust listened to the Serenade to Music in it's orchestral setting. It just doesn't get any better than that!

      Which recording is it? I got the 16-soloist version with Boult on a bargain EMI disc at Best Buy, and it was a pile of schlock (it bears noting that nearly everything else on the disc was no better).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on February 22, 2008, 11:50:15 AM
Quote from: Dana on February 22, 2008, 10:05:14 AM
      Which recording is it? I got the 16-soloist version with Boult on a bargain EMI disc at Best Buy, and it was a pile of schlock (it bears noting that nearly everything else on the disc was no better).

Get a life.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on February 22, 2008, 12:36:02 PM
Quote from: just josh on February 19, 2008, 01:14:50 PM
Oooh!  I'll check that out then!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413C6N6XHML._AA240_.jpg)

I recommend this disc. Included upon it is RVWs song cycle Songs of Travel. The disc as a whole is about the best collection of English songs that I know of. Terfel is full of insight and subtlety. It is a glorious voice and he really communicates. That song, The Infinite Shining Heavens was a revelation, I knew it well, he sings it with utter freshness.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ephemerid on February 22, 2008, 06:42:58 PM
Quote from: knight on February 22, 2008, 12:36:02 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413C6N6XHML._AA240_.jpg)

I recommend this disc. Included upon it is RVWs song cycle Songs of Travel. The disc as a whole is about the best collection of English songs that I know of. Terfel is full of insight and subtlety. It is a glorious voice and he really communicates. That song, The Infinite Shining Heavens was a revelation, I knew it well, he sings it with utter freshness.

Mike

Downloading it now.  I did download Benjamin Luxon's recording of Songs of Travel (and Silent Noon) but found something missing in it.  Just listening to the samples, this recording sounds more compelling!  Thank you, Mike!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on February 23, 2008, 05:50:52 PM
Quote from: sound67 on February 22, 2008, 11:50:15 AMGet a life.

I have one - it's Vaughan-Williams (just not bad recordings of him)!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on February 23, 2008, 10:58:08 PM
Josh, Luxon was an OK singer, but not one to imprint words onto your brain. He also had a good voice rather than a great one. Let me know how you get on with the performances from Terfel.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on February 24, 2008, 08:05:23 AM
Quote from: knight on February 23, 2008, 10:58:08 PM
Josh, Luxon was an OK singer, but not one to imprint words onto your brain.

Certainly, the Welsh Wobbler is! ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on February 24, 2008, 08:17:55 AM
I assume by the smilie, that you jest. I do remember hearing a Messiah from Cardiff on TV about two years ago and there was a pronounced wobble. It was awful. I dreded hearing him live a few months later; but when I did his voice was again as solid as a rock.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: rw1883 on February 25, 2008, 06:29:18 PM
Still going through VW's symphonies one by one (started in early January).  I have reached the 4th and have been completely blown away by Bryden Thomson's interpretation (this is becoming my favorite set).  I went ahead and bought the Thomson after reading some members favorable comments.  I just ordered the 4th & 5th conducted by VW and Barbirolli on Dutton.  I still haven't found the Bernstein 4th or the Berglund 6th, but I probably have to look more diligently.  On to more listening...

Paul
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on February 25, 2008, 10:08:15 PM
Quote from: rw1883 on February 25, 2008, 06:29:18 PM
Still going through VW's symphonies one by one (started in early January).  I have reached the 4th and have been completely blown away by Bryden Thomson's interpretation (this is becoming my favorite set).  I went ahead and bought the Thomson after reading some members favorable comments.  I just ordered the 4th & 5th conducted by VW and Barbirolli on Dutton.  I still haven't found the Bernstein 4th or the Berglund 6th, but I probably have to look more diligently.  On to more listening...

The only weak spots in the Thomson cycle are a limp 6th and a matter-of-fact 8th. The rest is very good to excellent, with the "London", 4th and 5th oustanding. Thomson's cycle is still much underrated, especially by those who were angry that Chandos selected him (the "Chandos house conductor", he was sneered at at the time - a phrase which always made me angry!) to record the cycle, and not Vernon Handley (who a few years later got his own glorious cycle with the RLPO on EMI).

In the 4th Symphony, I only regard Berglund as superior to Thomson, because he is even more savage. Vaughan Williams' own version is certainly the most ferocious, but because of the sound quality and the playing of the BBC Orchestra it's more of a souvenir really.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 25, 2008, 11:32:52 PM
Quote from: sound67 on February 25, 2008, 10:08:15 PM
The only weak spots in the Thomson cycle are a limp 6th and a matter-of-fact 8th. The rest is very good to excellent, with the "London", 4th and 5th outstanding.

Nice write-up, Thomas. And - if Thomson Fifth hadn't been outstanding, I wouldn't have 'cracked' that particular symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 26, 2008, 02:16:06 AM
Quote from: sound67 on February 25, 2008, 10:08:15 PM
The only weak spots in the Thomson cycle are a limp 6th and a matter-of-fact 8th. The rest is very good to excellent, with the "London", 4th and 5th oustanding. Thomson's cycle is still much underrated (...)

Thomas

However high I hold your views in general and on RVW specifically in esteem, I beg to disagree in a few details. I for me always loved Thomsons' slow but in my ears highly dramatic opening Allegro of the Sixth, and happen to dislike Andrew Davies' quicker rendering (he fares well in the final movement, but in the other three I certainly prefer Thomson's).

To make things worse, I happpen to prefer Thomson's Eight too, above most of the competitiopn, again, especially for the sake of its fine, `dry', first movement, the Fantasia (Variazioni Senza Tema).

And to end dramatically: I've been listening to most of the symphonies in the Andrew Davies BBC cycle recently (I was able to buy the set cheaply, no doubt because of their bad reviews). And I find most of them quite acceptible, much better than I expected. But again I make an exception for his Sixth, the only one that received wide praise, but for me remains too much underpowered to enjoy.

Thomson's cycle is probably my first choice overall, helped no doubt by their warm Chandos acoustics which for me were a quite revelation, back in the eighties (when we only had Previn and the second Boult cycle to our disposal yet).

(For similar reasons, another highlight in Thomson's cycle for me are the two central movements of the Ninth: very dramatic in my ears and by far the finest reading of them that I know of, but probably not your first choice, are they?)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on February 26, 2008, 03:51:16 AM
I have heard the Thomson well spoken of, though I have not had opportunity to hear any of his Vaughan Williams set, myself.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Harry on February 26, 2008, 04:17:06 AM
And its also a fact that Haitink's set is largely ignored, so to get rid of that was a good decision, and in the process make someone happy with it.
That said, I still think Andre Previn's complete set, still the best on the market, everyone of them.
They have a urgency and inner drive that makes me sit up, and still does, after countless hearings.
Previn's recklessness and the passion he brings to VW music, is unsurpassed for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 26, 2008, 06:21:41 AM
No 6 is extremely difficult to get right on disc. There are very few successful performances. Boult's 1952 Decca (with VW's speech) is the best. Boult's earlier one is excellent as is Abravanel's on Vanguard. Of modern recordings Davis, Thomson and Haitink are the best. EMI should reissue Berglund's sibelian account (it is much better than the earlier Handley recording which they have recently reissued).

Thomson's is one of the best.  Andrew Achenbach described it as "soggy" but BBC Music Magazine top 1000 CD book has it as a top choice. Stokowski rushes the last movement but is still compulsive listening as is Barbirolli's Bavarian RSO version on Orfeo.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Szykneij on March 26, 2008, 02:32:25 PM
I just experienced Vaughan William's string quartets (Music Group of London - EMI) for the first time and thoroughly enjoyed them both. On the initial hearing, I seem to prefer No. 1 but I'll be giving them another listen this evening. I've read that Vaughan Williams's chamber output is underrated. In my mind, these two works are good examples.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on March 26, 2008, 03:32:02 PM

    My first exposure to the 6th was the Boult/Decca. Unfortunately I no longer have it. I do have the Abravanel as well as the Boult/EMI, and I prefer the Abravanel.

Quote from: Szykniej on March 26, 2008, 02:32:25 PM
I just experienced Vaughan William's string quartets (Music Group of London - EMI) for the first time and thoroughly enjoyed them both. On the initial hearing, I seem to prefer No. 1 but I'll be giving them another listen this evening. I've read that Vaughan Williams's chamber output is underrated. In my mind, these two works are good examples.

    By No. 1 do you mean the Phantasy Quintet? I think the 2nd quartet takes some getting used to, but I'm learning to love it. This is RVW in his sterner late style, akin to the 6th symphony. And if anyone out there is an admirer of Hugh Bean's rendition of RVW's The Lark Ascending, you must have this disc.

     (http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8910/vaughanwilliamsmusicgroqv0.jpg)

   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Szykneij on March 27, 2008, 02:24:17 AM
Quote from: drogulus on March 26, 2008, 03:32:02 PM
  By No. 1 do you mean the Phantasy Quintet? I think the 2nd quartet takes some getting used to, but I'm learning to love it.

No, I was listening to his String Quartet No. 1 in G minor that pre-dates the Phantasy Quintet by a few years, although it was revised in 1921. It's strikingly different in style from his String Quartet No. 2 in A minor (1943) which I think I could learn to love, too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on March 27, 2008, 04:24:25 PM
I've listened through my new Previn set a few times. I still wouldn't rank VW at the top, but I've found that familiarity does wonderful things for these works. I still find the other orchestral works dull, though.
A niggle with this set is that 6 and 9 are programmed on the same disc, which means they sort-of blend unless I make the effort to shut off the CD player after track 4.

I've ordered a disc of Handley in 4 and 6 to supplement the Previn, and after that arrives I think I'll live with what I've got for a while. :)  Next set, if there is one, will be the Boult/Decca.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2008, 04:28:33 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 27, 2008, 04:24:25 PM
I've listened through my new Previn set a few times. I still wouldn't rank VW at the top, but I've found that familiarity does wonderful things for these works.

Any favourites?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on March 27, 2008, 09:29:31 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 27, 2008, 04:28:33 PM
Any favourites?
It's still 2, 3 and 7 at the moment, but the Handley disc might change that....

2 - An English Respighi!
3 - Still haven't got a grip on this one. Elusive.
7 - Those sliding chords combined with great atmosphere and colour. The wind machine doesn't sound as silly as I expected. (And Previn eats Bakels for lunch with this one!)


I just realised that someone unfamiliar with VW might think I meant "sliding chords" literally. It would be an interesting effect....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 29, 2008, 04:46:13 AM
Previn's are the best performances on disc, IMHO, of symphonies 2,3 and 8. 5 and 9 are also excellent.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on March 29, 2008, 07:44:05 AM
I agree with vandermolen with Previn however the toccata of the 8th by Hickox is better than Previn.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: The new erato on March 29, 2008, 08:09:47 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 27, 2008, 04:24:25 PM


I've ordered a disc of Handley in 4 and 6 to supplement the Previn,

You shouldn't have done that, all the Handley discs wil be included in the VW Collectors Edition on 30 discs being released dirt cheap late april.

All the concertos, all the operas, Flos Campi, The Serenade, Job, etc, etc.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 29, 2008, 08:12:33 AM
Quote from: btpaul674 on March 29, 2008, 07:44:05 AM
I agree with vandermolen with Previn however the toccata of the 8th by Hickox is better than Previn.

OK will listen to it as I have it with Hickox's poor Symphony 6
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on March 29, 2008, 08:45:32 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 29, 2008, 08:12:33 AM
OK will listen to it as I have it with Hickox's poor Symphony 6

It is indeed very poor.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2008, 01:31:37 PM
Quote from: btpaul674 on March 29, 2008, 08:45:32 PM
It is indeed very poor.

No 6, for some reason, seems very difficult to get right on disc Hickox, Bakels, Norrington, Handley (LPO), Previn (last movement) and others come unstuck in this symphony. The early Boults, Abravanel, Davis, Thomson and Haitink are the best in my view.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on March 31, 2008, 09:52:13 AM
I just heard the 4th symphony (Royal Liverpool Philharm. Orch, Handley Vernon). I liked it. I also liked the first symphony. Looks like VW's symphonies are worth exploring.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2008, 09:55:07 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 31, 2008, 09:52:13 AM
I just heard the 4th symphony (Royal Liverpool Philharm. Orch, Handley Vernon). I liked it. I also liked the first symphony. Looks like VW's symphonies are worth exploring.

They certainly are! If only to see what British composers after Elgar did with the Symphony...  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MN Dave on March 31, 2008, 10:01:27 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 31, 2008, 09:55:07 AM
They certainly are! If only to see what British composers after Elgar did with the Symphony...  ;)

I have you figured out. You dig British composers. How do you like Purcell?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2008, 10:19:27 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on March 31, 2008, 10:01:27 AM
I have you figured out. You dig British composers.

You can tell, can you?

Quote from: MN Dave on March 31, 2008, 10:01:27 AMHow do you like Purcell?

I am a bit of a post-Beethoven guy. So I do like the instrumental Bach (but not too often), but Purcell is still only Dido's Lament (which is incredibly moving btw).

I am glad that there is so much pre-Beethoven music I still have to establish a rapport with. Something for the second half of my life, perhaps...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on March 31, 2008, 10:22:59 AM
The San Antonio Symphony Orchestra will perform VW's Cantata "Folk Songs of the Four Seasons" on April 11 and 12 at the Majestic Theatre(presumably in San Antonio).

This is the Cantata VW wrote for the Women's Institute in 1949. It is, apparently, 45 minutes long which suggests a substantial work.

Has anybody ever heard it-because I certainly don't remember ever having done so! It is not-and never has been-recorded(as far as I know). I wonder why not? Don't suppose it is an undiscovered masterpiece but......!

Well done, san Antonio!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 31, 2008, 10:44:21 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 31, 2008, 10:22:59 AM
Has anybody ever heard it - because I certainly don't remember ever having done so! It is not - and never has been - recorded(as far as I know). I wonder why not? Don't suppose it is an undiscovered masterpiece but......!

You will be our reviewer!

I never heard of any modern performance, let alone a recording. According to Michael Kennedy, A catalogue of the works of RVW, it is based on traditional folk songs and was premiered in the Royal Albert Hall in London, 15 June 1950, by Adrian Boult with the LSO and 'massed choirs'.

Roy Douglas tells in his book about his cooperation with Vaughan Williams, and how he arranged a suite from it for small orchestra, and how RVW insisted on his (Douglas') copy rights, in order to allow him a little income. But I'm not aware of any performance of this piece either - listed as lasting 13,5 minutes by Kennedy - nor of any recording. Does anybody here?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on March 31, 2008, 10:55:05 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 31, 2008, 10:44:21 AM
You will be our reviewer!

I never heard of any modern performance, let alone a recording. According to Michael Kennedy, A catalogue of the works of RVW, it is based on traditional folk songs and was premiered in the Royal Albert Hall in London, 15 June 1950, by Adrian Boult with the LSO and 'massed choirs'.

Roy Douglas tells in his book about his cooperation with Vaughan Williams, and how he arranged a suite from it for small orchestra, and how RVW insisted on his (Douglas') copy rights, in order to allow him a little income. But I'm not aware of any performance of this piece either - listed as lasting 13,5 minutes by Kennedy - nor of any recording. Does anybody here?

I shall happily review the performance for you if you will pay my air fare from Scotland to Texas!! ;D :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 31, 2008, 11:27:02 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 31, 2008, 10:55:05 AM
I shall happily review the performance for you if you will pay my air fare from Scotland to Texas!! ;D :)

Who's talking about taking a costly plane? 0:) Can't you swim it - I'll happily share your daily breakfast expenses then. But perhaps we better ask one of the no doubt thousands of Texonian RVW adorers online here, to do a little reviewing? 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 17, 2008, 11:27:25 PM
So, what's the verdict here on Haitink's Vaughan Williams symphony cycle?

I'm listening to the single disc release of Symphony 6 (my favourite), I think that it is the best modern version (much better than the Hickox which was apparently chosen as the BBC Radio 3 "Building a Library" No 1 choice a few weeks back.) It is a great CD with the orchestral "On Wenlock Edge" and a fine performance of "In the Fen Country". What is your favourite VW symphony cycle?

Lots of VW at the Proms in London this year.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on May 18, 2008, 02:17:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 17, 2008, 11:27:25 PM
So, what's the verdict here on Haitink's Vaughan Williams symphony cycle?

Uneven. Superb 2nd and 7th, perfectly acceptable 1st, 3rd and 5th, routine 4th and 6th, poor 8th and 9th.

In general: A Brucknerian approach to Vaughan Williams - sometimes that worked, sometimes it didn't.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on May 18, 2008, 02:21:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 17, 2008, 11:27:25 PMLots of VW at the Proms in London this year.

Yeah. Unfortunately, only 2 performances during my annual stay there. Symphonies 4 & 8.  :-[
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on May 18, 2008, 04:47:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 17, 2008, 11:27:25 PM
So, what's the verdict here on Haitink's Vaughan Williams symphony cycle?

I'm listening to the single disc release of Symphony 6 (my favourite), I think that it is the best modern version (much better than the Hickox which was apparently chosen as the BBC Radio 3 "Building a Library" No 1 choice a few weeks back.) It is a great CD with the orchestral "On Wenlock Edge" and a fine performance of "In the Fen Country". What is your favourite VW symphony cycle?

Lots of VW at the Proms in London this year.

I have Haitink in the Sea Symphony and the Sinfonia Antartica and esteem both performances, particularly the latter which, in my opinion, elevates the work into the masterpiece I really believe that it is.. Haitink is a conductor for whom I have a very high regard-obviously particularly in Bruckner! I know that there has been criticism that his VW is not idiomatic but Haitink's approach is surely at least valid and deeply thought. It always seemed to me to be tremendous that a great European conductor, steeped in the central European traditions of Brahms, Bruckner and Mahler, should invest his profound knowledge and experience in a composer who has not exactly been 'taken up' by many other non-British or non-American conductors!

Hickox doesn't exactly seem to have many admirers on this site in VW! (Apart, that is, from his CD of the original version of the London Symphony).
I am always a little puzzled by this. I freely admit that I make my CD purchases on the basis of reading as many reviews as possible by critics for whom I have respect. Hickox's cycle has-so far-generally had very positive reviews. Where do people think he has gone wrong?

I can't answer your second question, Jeffrey. I don't have a favourite cycle. I mix and match...thus:

Sea Symphony-Haitink
London Symphony-Hickox(original), Previn(revised)
Pastoral-Previn and Hickox
No.4-Previn and Hickox
No.5-Handley and Hickox
No.6-Andrew Davis, Handley, Thomson and Hickox
No.7-Haitink
No.8-Thomson and Hickox
No.9-Handley and Thomson

Have I got it reasonably ok or should I add to that lot?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2008, 05:28:25 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 18, 2008, 04:47:11 AM
I have Haitink in the Sea Symphony and the Sinfonia Antartica and esteem both performances, particularly the latter which, in my opinion, elevates the work into the masterpiece I really believe that it is.. Haitink is a conductor for whom I have a very high regard-obviously particularly in Bruckner! I know that there has been criticism that his VW is not idiomatic but Haitink's approach is surely at least valid and deeply thought. It always seemed to me to be tremendous that a great European conductor, steeped in the central European traditions of Brahms, Bruckner and Mahler, should invest his profound knowledge and experience in a composer who has not exactly been 'taken up' by many other non-British or non-American conductors!

Hickox doesn't exactly seem to have many admnirers on this site in VW! (Apart, that is, from his CD of the original version of the London Symphony).
I am always a little puzzled by this. I freely admit that I make my CD purchases on the basis of reading as many reviews as possible by critics for whom I have respect. Hickox's cycle has-so far-generally had very positive reviews. Where do people think he has gone wrong?

I can't answer your second question, Jeffrey. I don't have a favourite cycle. I mix and match...thus:

Sea Symphony-Haitink
London Symphony-Hickox(original), Previn(revised)
Pastoral-Previn and Hickox
No.4-Previn and Hickox
No.5-Handley and Hickox
No.6-Andrew Davis, Handley, Thomson and Hickox
No.7-Haitink
No.8-Thomson and Hickox
No.9-Handley and Thomson

Have I got it reasonably ok or should I add to that lot?

I do like Hickox and I have enjoyed all the VW releases so far (don't know his Sea Symphony) except for No 6 which I found dull and uninvolving (this did not stop Stephen Johnson from selecting it as his No 1 choice on the BBC). I love the Hickox Arnold and Alwyn cycles and much else besides.

Colin,

Your choice of individual VW symphonies is very sound, although a little thin perhaps in the Sir Adrian Boult department  ;D

Stokowski's No 9 is a must.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on May 18, 2008, 06:07:56 AM
Oh, sorry Jeffrey, I had completely forgotten that I have Nos.1-4 and 6-9 of the symphonies conducted by Sir Adrian Boult on LP, together with Barbirolli in Nos. 2 and 5. :) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on May 18, 2008, 10:02:05 AM
Hickox's 3rd is a mess (artificial emphases in all the wrong places), his 4th bland, the 2nd rather stolid (its only real merit being the only recording of the original, but weaker, version of the London Symphony), the 6th dull indeed!

The least remarkable RVW cycle outside of Davis's and Slatkin's.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2008, 11:00:06 AM
Quote from: sound67 on May 18, 2008, 10:02:05 AM
Hickox's 3rd is a mess (artificial emphases in all the wrong places), his 4th bland, the 2nd rather stolid (its only real merit being the only recording of the original, but weaker, version of the London Symphony), the 6th dull indeed!

The least remarkable RVW cycle outside of Davis's and Slatkin's.

I liked Hickox's No 5 + the interesting fill-ups (Pilgrim's Pavement etc).

Which Cycles do you like? I like Davis No 6 and Slatkin No 9.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on May 18, 2008, 11:06:22 AM
Quote from: vandermolen
I liked Hickox's No 5 + the interesting fill-ups (Pilgrim's Pavement etc).

Ditto. The only fine reading in his cycle. I forgot: Hickox' Sea Symphony is rowdy, his 8th undernourished and grey-sounding.  ;D

QuoteWhich Cycles do you like? I like Davis No 6 and Slatkin No 9.

Again, ditto. But, again, these are the only good performances in their respective cycles.

Handley is the most consistently pleasing, followed by Thomson.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 19, 2008, 03:27:27 AM
Quote from: sound67 on May 18, 2008, 11:06:22 AM
Ditto. The only fine reading in his cycle. I forgot: Hickox' Sea Symphony is rowdy, his 8th undernourished and grey-sounding.  ;D

Again, ditto. But, again, these are the only good performances in their respective cycles.

Handley is the most consistently pleasing, followed by Thomson.

Yes, Thomson is very underrated. Agree that Handley is very consistent but not my first choice in any symphony...well, maybe No 9 for those harps at the end :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: mr_espansiva on May 20, 2008, 06:08:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 19, 2008, 03:27:27 AM
Yes, Thomson is very underrated. Agree that Handley is very consistent but not my first choice in any symphony...well, maybe No 9 for those harps at the end :)

I haven't heard 5 done better than by Handley, but then I haven't heard quite a few of those mentioned. Let me rephrase - I can't imagine it being done better than by Handley ...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2008, 07:33:32 AM
BBC Music Magazine is featuring Vaughan Williams next month (not the current issue). The cover CD will be Symphony No 5 with Andrew Davis conducting. On BBC 4 (UK TV) this Friday (23rd May) there is a documentary "The loves of Vaughan Williams", apparently about his relationship with his two wives, Adeline and Ursula.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on May 20, 2008, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: mr_espansiva on May 20, 2008, 06:08:48 AM
I haven't heard 5 done better than by Handley, but then I haven't heard quite a few of those mentioned. Let me rephrase - I can't imagine it being done better than by Handley ...

Yes, I too think that Handley in No. 5 is a great performance.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 20, 2008, 07:33:32 AM
BBC Music Magazine is featuring Vaughan Williams next month (not the current issue). The cover CD will be Symphony No 5 with Andrew Davis conducting. On BBC 4 (UK TV) this Friday (23rd May) there is a documentary "The loves of Vaughan Williams", apparently about his relationship with his two wives, Adeline and Ursula.

Thanks for this info', Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on May 20, 2008, 10:47:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 20, 2008, 07:33:32 AM
BBC Music Magazine is featuring Vaughan Williams next month (not the current issue). The cover CD will be Symphony No 5 with Andrew Davis conducting.

If that's the same performance as in his cycle, then forget it. It was very weak.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 12:32:08 AM
Quote from: sound67 on May 20, 2008, 10:47:12 PM
If that's the same performance as in his cycle, then forget it. It was very weak.

Probably not as they tend to issue live recordings rather than previously commercially issued discs (although not always). I agree with you that it wasn't a good performance. The cycle did not live up to the promise of  the great recording of Symphony 6, which was the first issue in that series.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on May 21, 2008, 12:47:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 20, 2008, 07:33:32 AM
BBC Music Magazine is featuring Vaughan Williams next month (not the current issue). The cover CD will be Symphony No 5 with Andrew Davis conducting. On BBC 4 (UK TV) this Friday (23rd May) there is a documentary "The loves of Vaughan Williams", apparently about his relationship with his two wives, Adeline and Ursula.

Does BBC 4 offer the option of internet replay? Unfortunately my cable only provides BBS 1 and 2.

Th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 02:12:19 AM
Quote from: Thom on May 21, 2008, 12:47:57 AM
Does BBC 4 offer the option of internet replay? Unfortunately my cable only provides BBS 1 and 2.

Th.

Yes, I think BBC iPlayer does this if you look at the BBC website.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on May 21, 2008, 02:33:51 AM
Thank you! I hope this documentary will make it to the playlist. Didn't know about the iPlayer. Great!

Th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 03:12:51 AM
Quote from: Thom on May 21, 2008, 02:33:51 AM
Thank you! I hope this documentary will make it to the playlist. Didn't know about the iPlayer. Great!

Th.

If you click on the link below you will see the i Player on the right hand side.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/

Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2008, 03:16:17 AM
A pity this only works for UK residents.  :'(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 03:20:24 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on May 21, 2008, 03:16:17 AM
A pity this only works for UK residents.  :'(

Yes, but serves you right for suggesting that Wellesz's "English Symphony" is (I quote) "a critique". Actually it is a loyal tribute to the realm of Her Majesty  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2008, 03:27:20 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 03:20:24 AM
Yes, but serves you right for suggesting that Wellesz's "English Symphony" is (I quote) "a critique". Actually it is a loyal tribute to the realm of Her Majesty  ;)

;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on May 21, 2008, 03:57:12 AM
This is very unfortunate   :'(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Hector on May 21, 2008, 04:32:33 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on May 21, 2008, 03:16:17 AM
A pity this only works for UK residents.  :'(

Because we pay for it through our TV licences and quite expensive it is too. Almost the cost of a gallon of petrol ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2008, 04:51:05 AM
Quote from: Hector on May 21, 2008, 04:32:33 AM
Because we pay for it through our TV licences and quite expensive it is too. Almost the cost of a gallon of petrol.

"The loves of Vaughan Williams" = gallon of petrol.

Seems fair.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on May 21, 2008, 05:20:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 03:20:24 AM
Yes, but serves you right for suggesting that Wellesz's "English Symphony" is (I quote) "a critique". Actually it is a loyal tribute to the realm of Her Majesty  ;)

Hmm! I don't know about that :) Wellesz was making a small effort to assimilate himself to the country to which he had fled after the Anschluss. According to those who studied with him at Oxford Wellesz never showed any great interest in the works of contemporary native British composers, retaining instead his debt to the music of Bruckner, Mahler and Schoenberg. He was the great authority on Byzantine music. Now there's a whole world we have yet to explore!!! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 21, 2008, 06:50:41 AM
Quote from: Hector on May 21, 2008, 04:32:33 AMBecause we pay for it through our TV licences and quite expensive it is too. Almost the cost of a gallon of petrol ;D
We also do, but the stations are available everywhere. But hey. I heard germany and the netherlands are the only idiots left in europe, who don't take tolls for their highways. Sometimes I almost only see eastern Europe trucks and cars on our A2 highway, travelling towards the west. We could become millionaires...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 06:57:59 AM
Quote from: Thom on May 21, 2008, 03:57:12 AM
This is very unfortunate   :'(

Not sure if you mean the non-availability of the BBC iPlayer to non-UK residents or my comments to Jezetha.  If it is the latter, please know that I was only joking (as Johan knows). I may just be being (characteristically) hyper-sensitive, but I just wanted to clarify this in case it is what you were thinking  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2008, 07:05:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 06:57:59 AM
Not sure if you mean the non-availability of the BBC iPlayer to non-UK residents or my comments to Jezetha.  If it is the latter, please know that I was only joking (as Johan knows). I may just be being (characteristically) hyper-sensitive, but I just wanted to clarify this in case it is what you were thinking  :)

Thom lives in the Netherlands, too. He was simply crying shoulder to shoulder with me.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on May 21, 2008, 09:13:52 AM
Right you are Jezetha. And maybe we in the Netherlands and our German neighbours are indeed gradually the exception to the rule as far as internet televison is concerned. Lucky we are as long as it lasts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 02:50:23 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on May 21, 2008, 07:05:36 AM
Thom lives in the Netherlands, too. He was simply crying shoulder to shoulder with me.  ;D

Pleased to hear it! Well, actually I mean pleased to hear that I did not upset anyone. As a Chelsea supporter I'm having a bad evening  :'(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2008, 02:56:02 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 02:50:23 PM
Pleased to hear it! Well, actually I mean pleased to hear that I did not upset anyone. As a Chelsea supporter I'm having a bad evening  :'(

Didn't watch it. But I conclude that Manchester United won, then... My condolences, Jeffrey.

(Let's hope the Chelsea fans don't storm Lenin's Tomb.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 03:01:17 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on May 21, 2008, 02:56:02 PM
Didn't watch it. But I conclude that Manchester United won, then... My condolences, Jeffrey.

(Let's hope the Chelsea fans don't storm Lenin's Tomb.)

Thanks Johan,

I think that the guards at Lenin's tomb (where I was a few weeks ago) will be able to fend off the Chelsea fans. They will be heading for the bars anyway to drown their sorrows. I am consoling myself with Miaskovsky's 17th Symphony  :'(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on May 21, 2008, 05:52:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 03:01:17 PM
Thanks Johan,

I think that the guards at Lenin's tomb (where I was a few weeks ago) will be able to fend off the Chelsea fans. They will be heading for the bars anyway to drown their sorrows. I am consoling myself with Miaskovsky's 17th Symphony  :'(

When I took a group of school pupils to Lenin's Tomb in 1991(a month before the Coup against Gorbachev!) the guards would not even let the pupils whisper to each other!! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 21, 2008, 10:58:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 03:01:17 PM
Thanks Johan,

I think that the guards at Lenin's tomb (where I was a few weeks ago) will be able to fend off the Chelsea fans. They will be heading for the bars anyway to drown their sorrows. I am consoling myself with Miaskovsky's 17th Symphony  :'( 

We both sincerely apologize for Van der Sar's gross misconduct.  :'(

As for musical consolement fitting with this thread: I remember to have seen some Russian performance of the Sea Symphony, but I don't have it and cannot find the details. Who does?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 11:31:39 PM
Quote from: Christo on May 21, 2008, 10:58:06 PM
We both sincerely apologize for Van der Sar's gross misconduct.  :'(

As for musical consolement fitting with this thread: I remember to have seen some Russian performance of the Sea Symphony, but I don't have it and cannot find the details. Who does?

I accept your apology Johan and Johan but as a "van der molen" maybe I am implicated myself.

Russian VW, how exciting! Don't know this although I have a very interesting CD of Svetlanov conducting the USSR Symphony Orchestra in Elgar's Second Symphony; a rather unidiomatic but still very good performance.,
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 22, 2008, 03:04:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 11:31:39 PM
Russian VW, how exciting!

I have always been tantalised after reading this:

With the USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra he recorded all the symphonies of Dmitri Shostakovich, Alexander Glazunov, Anton Bruckner, Schnittke, Arthur Honegger, and Vaughan Williams. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennady_Rozhdestvensky)

I've only ever seen a horribly OOP 5th on Amazon, and no others...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on May 22, 2008, 08:22:48 AM
Don't know about his Bruckner or Honegger(!) either!

Has this been linked before: Norman Lebrecht has written a column on the Vaughan Williams anniversary:

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/080430-NL-Vaughan.html

QuoteDuring the Second World War, VW assumed the oracular role to English audiences that Shostakovich did to Russians. Crowds surged to his fifth symphony in the hope of glimpsing victory and a better world beyond. In peacetime, he turned bleak once more. Famous as he was, he refused all official titles and conducted amateur choirs in Dorking with scruffy gusto and unfailing courtesy, always remembering to thank the worst of his singers for their enthusiasm. He strikes me the kind of man whose greatest effort went into concealing his greatness. At 85, preparing for the next day's recording of his ninth symphony, he died in his sleep on September 26, 1958.

That so vital a composer could fade from the centre of our attention is down to the fickleness of the classical music establishment. No sooner was he dead than BBC mandarins wrote him off as English and reactionary, when he was the least insular of composers and socially among the most progressive. It did not help that his few posthumous champions came from the political right, and that the piece by which he is best known is the rosy-toned arcadian setting of Henry VIII's Greensleeves.

There may be one further reason for his retreat. VW was always best served by the less flamboyant conductors. Adrian Boult and John Barbirolli were his choice interpreters. The colourful Thomas Beecham actively disliked him.

That dichotomy persists. The Phiharmonia cycle is conducted by Richard Hickox, the Proms by Andrew Davis, Leonard Slatkin, Mark Elder. The flashier baton of Simon Rattle is conspicuous in its present VW abstinence.

Not that it matters much, since the wind is now blowing his way. The Lark Ascending has just come top of a poll of Classic FM listeners and when television viewers hear the Tallis Fantasia as the long boats flicker down the River Thames, some think 'there will always be an England' while others rush to their blogs to proclaim, 'that is a sound that I want to hear for the rest of my days.' Uncle Ralph is home. Tea, anyone?

Simon Rattle sure is a prick ...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 22, 2008, 08:35:14 AM
Quote from: sound67 on May 22, 2008, 08:22:48 AM
Has this been linked before: Norman Lebrecht has written a column on the Vaughan Williams anniversary:

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/080430-NL-Vaughan.html

Simon Rattle sure is a prick ...

It is a shame that Rattle doesn't seem to care for RVW. His appointment to the BP could've been an ideal time for people to hear a leading non-English orchestra play the music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on May 22, 2008, 08:52:05 AM
Awww, who cares. I know several musicians who played under him in the BP, and they all said he's the most utterly forgettable of conductors. Just a media hype. He wouldn't have anything of merit to say about RVW anyway.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on May 22, 2008, 08:58:40 AM
Quote from: sound67 on May 22, 2008, 08:22:48 AM
Don't know about his Bruckner or Honegger(!) either!

Has this been linked before: Norman Lebrecht has written a column on the Vaughan Williams anniversary:

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/080430-NL-Vaughan.html

Simon Rattle sure is a prick ...

Wonder who these "few posthumous champions" from the "political right" were? I don't know the politics(if any!) of Boult or Barbirolli.

A bit unfair on Andrew Davis and Leonard Slatkin-both of whom have recorded complete VW symphony sets!

Have to agree about Rattle! I cherish his Mahler 2nd and 10th and the Maw Odyssey but have nothing else conducted by him in my collection.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 22, 2008, 10:28:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 11:31:39 PMRussian VW, how exciting!

Yes, it's still to be seen at Amazon.com, which offers the following details:

.>> R. Vaughan Wiliams SYMPHONY No.1 ("A Sea Symphony", 1910) .... Total time - 65.30. T. Smoryakova, soprano B. Vasiliev, baritone The Leningrad Musical Society Conductors" Chour Artistic director A. Verechagin The Rimsky-Korsakov Musical School Chour Artistic director B. Abalian The USSR Ministry Of Culture Symphony Orchestra Conductor Gennadi Rozdestvensky. Recorded live at the Grand Hall of Leningrad Philharmony April 30, 1988. <<

                  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41A502HXPDL._SS500_.jpg)

I also own the BBC recording with Rozhdestvensky conducting the BBC SO in the Fifth. But with a British orchestra, it doesn't count as `Russian VW', I would say.


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 22, 2008, 10:40:48 AM
Quote from: Christo on May 22, 2008, 10:28:13 AM
Yes, it's still to be seen at Amazon.com, which offers the following details:

.>> R. Vaughan Wiliams SYMPHONY No.1 ("A Sea Symphony", 1910) .... Total time - 65.30. T. Smoryakova, soprano B. Vasiliev, baritone The Leningrad Musical Society Conductors" Chour Artistic director A. Verechagin The Rimsky-Korsakov Musical School Chour Artistic director B. Abalian The USSR Ministry Of Culture Symphony Orchestra Conductor Gennadi Rozdestvensky. Recorded live at the Grand Hall of Leningrad Philharmony April 30, 1988. <<

                  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41A502HXPDL._SS500_.jpg)

I also own the BBC recording with Rozhdestvensky conducting the BBC SO in the Fifth. But with a British orchestra, it doesn't count as `Russian VW', I would say.




Thanks Johan,

How interesting!

I have that CD with No 5 and Sancta Civitas; both excellent performances. I'd love to hear Rozhdestvensky doing Nos 4,6 or 9. The Sargent No 4, which is excellent and which was also on that BBC Radio Classics label has just been reissued on BBC Legends (with sibelius No 4).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 22, 2008, 10:42:02 AM
Quote from: sound67 on May 22, 2008, 08:22:48 AM
Don't know about his Bruckner or Honegger(!) either!

Has this been linked before: Norman Lebrecht has written a column on the Vaughan Williams anniversary:

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/080430-NL-Vaughan.html

Simon Rattle sure is a prick ...


Thanks for the link to a very interesting article. I'll DVD the programme tomorrow.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on May 22, 2008, 11:58:06 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 21, 2008, 02:50:23 PM
As a Chelsea supporter I'm having a bad evening  :'(

I'm very sorry, that was a heartbreaker for many. I have strong feelings against ManU since the '99 debacle.

But when Bayern Munich returns to the champions league next year, it will be ok since we all know they will win it anyway.  ;D



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on May 22, 2008, 06:22:00 PM
Quote from: Lebrecht
He strikes me the kind of man whose greatest effort went into concealing his greatness.

What, as opposed to writing good music? >:D

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 22, 2008, 11:16:19 PM
Quote from: btpaul674 on May 22, 2008, 11:58:06 AM
I'm very sorry, that was a heartbreaker for many. I have strong feelings against ManU since the '99 debacle.

But when Bayern Munich returns to the champions league next year, it will be ok since we all know they will win it anyway.  ;D





:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on May 22, 2008, 11:32:20 PM
I know I ask for much, but is anyone able to tape the Vaughan Williams documentary tonight on BBC4 and to  post it f.i. to rapidshare or YouTube? If what I am asking is nonsense with regard to technical barriers, then forgive me. I am no expert on video matters.

Thom
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 22, 2008, 11:56:16 PM
Only now I start to realize that the film might contain some revelations? Quote from Norman Lebrecht's column:

Between the wars he flirted harmlessly with his Royal College students – 'we always called him the Uncle', says one dear old girl in John Bridcut's new film – until, in 1938, he fell in love with Ursula Wood, an army bride of traffic-stopping beauty. Bridcut's film reveals that they became lovers immediately and that Ursula had an abortion, not knowing if the foetus was Wood's or VW's.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 23, 2008, 01:05:44 AM
Quote from: Thom on May 22, 2008, 11:32:20 PMI know I ask for much, but is anyone able to tape the Vaughan Williams documentary tonight on BBC4 and to  post it f.i. to rapidshare or YouTube? If what I am asking is nonsense with regard to technical barriers, then forgive me. I am no expert on video matters.
Oh yes please!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 23, 2008, 01:11:02 AM
Quote from: sound67 on May 18, 2008, 11:06:22 AMHandley is the most consistently pleasing

This cycle?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614595CH38L._SS400_.gif)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2008, 01:13:38 AM
Quote from: Thom on May 22, 2008, 11:32:20 PM
I know I ask for much, but is anyone able to tape the Vaughan Williams documentary tonight on BBC4 and to  post it f.i. to rapidshare or YouTube? If what I am asking is nonsense with regard to technical barriers, then forgive me. I am no expert on video matters.

Thom

Thom

I am out tonight but I have set up the DVD to record the programme, however, something often goes horribly wrong ( as in the time when I asked my mother-in-law to record a crucial football match but she recorded a "Gardener's World" special about turnips instead (I am not joking).

If it comes out ok I haven't the faintest idea how to post it on Youtube or Rapidshare (whatever that is) but i could probably get a copy done at work and would be happy to send one to you or anyone else (within reason) who wants one.

Jeffrey

ps If it doesn't come out it will probably be available for a week on the BBC i Player and I asked one of the technicians at school today if they could copy it, if it goes wrong tonight.  He will see what he can do.

pps Good news. I've just checked the BBC 4 listings and the programme is repeated twice on Saturday. So, I should definitely be able to record it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2008, 02:37:29 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on May 23, 2008, 01:11:02 AM
This cycle?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614595CH38L._SS400_.gif)

Yes, but it looks like this now:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on May 23, 2008, 03:06:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2008, 01:13:38 AM
Thom

I am out tonight but I have set up the DVD to record the programme, however, something often goes horribly wrong ( as in the time when I asked my mother-in-law to record a crucial football match but she recorded a "Gardener's World" special about turnips instead (I am not joking).

If it comes out ok I haven't the faintest idea how to post it on Youtube or Rapidshare (whatever that is) but i could probably get a copy done at work and would be happy to send one to you or anyone else (within reason) who wants one.

Jeffrey

ps If it doesn't come out it will probably be available for a week on the BBC i Player and I asked one of the technicians at school today if they could copy it, if it goes wrong tonight.  He will see what he can do.

pps Good news. I've just checked the BBC 4 listings and the programme is repeated twice on Saturday. So, I should definitely be able to record it.

Jeffrey, thank you very much, you're so kind! But please, only if it doesn't cost you too much time.

Thom


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 23, 2008, 03:20:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2008, 01:13:38 AM
Thom

I am out tonight but I have set up the DVD to record the programme, however, something often goes horribly wrong ( as in the time when I asked my mother-in-law to record a crucial football match but she recorded a "Gardener's World" special about turnips instead (I am not joking).

If it comes out ok I haven't the faintest idea how to post it on Youtube or Rapidshare (whatever that is) but i could probably get a copy done at work and would be happy to send one to you or anyone else (within reason) who wants one.

Jeffrey

ps If it doesn't come out it will probably be available for a week on the BBC i Player and I asked one of the technicians at school today if they could copy it, if it goes wrong tonight.  He will see what he can do.

pps Good news. I've just checked the BBC 4 listings and the programme is repeated twice on Saturday. So, I should definitely be able to record it.

Great, Jeffrey! I have an idea - if you can make a copy of the programme, send it to me. I am quite computer-savvy. I could make copies for the other Dutch members who are interested, if Thom and Christo (and Harry?) agree, that is. This scheme could 'ease your burden'...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 23, 2008, 03:46:45 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on May 23, 2008, 03:20:45 AM
if Thom and Christo (and Harry?) agree, that is.

I, at least, do !  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on May 23, 2008, 03:56:58 AM
Yes of course, great idea, thanks also to Jezetha.

Thom
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2008, 04:04:53 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on May 23, 2008, 03:20:45 AM
Great, Jeffrey! I have an idea - if you can make a copy of the programme, send it to me. I am quite computer-savvy. I could make copies for the other Dutch members who are interested, if Thom and Christo (and Harry?) agree, that is. This scheme could 'ease your burden'...

Thom, Johan and Johan,

I think that the best thing is if I record it twice tomorrow (it is televised on three separate occasions) and then send one of the DVDs to Johan (Jezetha), who can then magically convert it to a format which can be viewed by everyone.  Alternatively, the helpful media technician at school says that he can copy a DVD as long as it is not a commercially available pre-recorded one. I would then be happy to drive down to Harwich and smuggle it on to the Hook of Holland ferry ;D

Jeffrey.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 23, 2008, 04:07:24 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2008, 04:04:53 AM
Thom, Johan and Johan,

I think that the best thing is if I record it twice tomorrow (it is televised on three separate occasions) and then send one of the DVDs to Johan (Jezetha), who can then magically convert it to a format which can be viewed by everyone.  Alternatively, the helpful media technician at school says that he can copy a DVD as long as it is not a commercially available pre-recorded one. I would then be happy to drive down to Harwich and smuggle it on to the Hook of Holland ferry ;D

That'll suit me fine - I live very near Hook of Holland!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on May 23, 2008, 04:36:28 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on May 23, 2008, 04:07:24 AM
That'll suit me fine - I live very near Hook of Holland!  ;D

The same applies to me, Wassenaar <-> The Hook, can't be much more than 15 km or so  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2008, 05:16:23 AM
Ok, it will be in an anonymous looking brown package, labelled "Vaughan Williams...scandalous revelations about his love life...not to be opened by those of a nervous disposition". :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 23, 2008, 05:43:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2008, 05:16:23 AM
Ok, it will be in an anonymous looking brown package, labelled "Vaughan Williams...scandalous revelations about his love life...not to be opened by those of a nervous disposition". :o

;D

But thanks for the warning all the same - I think I'll check with my GP first.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2008, 06:00:59 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on May 23, 2008, 05:43:53 AM
;D

But thanks for the warning all the same - I think I'll check with my GP first.

:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 23, 2008, 06:29:32 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on May 23, 2008, 01:11:02 AM
This cycle?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614595CH38L._SS400_.gif)

Ooh, does this mean that you are thinking about getting it? :) It is IMO an ideal intro, not just due to having strong performances all-round, but also for the exceptional amount of extra pieces it comes with - the Classics for Pleasure reissue of the cycle is very well filled out.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Hector on May 23, 2008, 06:43:12 AM
It's on before the great British "watershed" so there'll be no sex involved.

The "watershed" assumes that all kiddies and those of a particular nervous disposition will be in bed before nine o'clock (yeah, playing 'Grand Theft Auto' or watching internet porn on their laptop under the bedclothes).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 23, 2008, 11:23:39 AM
Holy crap. I just heard an extract of Dona nobis pacem in the documentary, I need to hear the full piece asap - is there a preferred recording? I think I may find the 1936 one a bit too creaky sounding for a first listen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 23, 2008, 11:27:17 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 23, 2008, 06:29:32 AMOoh, does this mean that you are thinking about getting it? :)
Yes. I thought it would be a good start, just have a few VWs (Hickox, and Haitink/8) and Tallis Fantasia of Frühbeck de Burgos, which is great.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 23, 2008, 11:36:08 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 23, 2008, 11:23:39 AM
Holy crap. I just heard an extract of Dona nobis pacem in the documentary, I need to hear the full piece asap - is there a preferred recording? I think I may find the 1936 one a bit too creaky sounding for a first listen.

The 1936 Dona Nobis Pacem will be the one conducted by Vaughan Williams himself, recently released by Somn:
                                   (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/Feb08/RVW5_sommcd071.jpg)

As for modern recordings, I myself would prefer Thomson's version on Chandos:

     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YSCZV0BYL._SS500_.jpg)

                         
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 23, 2008, 12:38:18 PM
Christo - thanks. I am slightly tempted by the following, as I also haven't heard the coupling, but I am not a great fan of Hickox...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JJV36YEML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Anyway, the documentary was wonderful, very worth watching if anyone can record and distribute it (no DVD recorder for me :(). The most important part of an RVW documentary for me is not to go overboard on the "DISPELLING MYTHS" tangent, banging on about subtexts, etc. Fortunately this one did not. It mentioned a bit about the Pastoral, but didn't even play the first movement of the 6th (commonly used for "shock effect") - instead focusing on the finale. It gave an above average overview of his vocal work, and even his conducting of Bach.

I hope that a few people who have yet to get into classical music watched it as well, as it was an excellent introduction to his work as a whole, not quite as specific as the "love life" theme implied, and the extracts were well chosen, and sometimes given a decent length of time before they get buried under interviews. I could see it as being a great gateway into people "getting" what classical has to offer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on May 23, 2008, 12:39:51 PM
Quote from: Lethe on May 23, 2008, 11:23:39 AM
Holy crap. I just heard an extract of Dona nobis pacem in the documentary, I need to hear the full piece asap - is there a preferred recording? I think I may find the 1936 one a bit too creaky sounding for a first listen.

It's a superb piece, IMO, and belies its fix-up nature (it was assembled from sections written over a rather large period of time). I've got Hickox on EMI (coupled with the equally fine if rather less immediately awe-inspiring Sancta Civitas) and I notice it appears to be for sale for four quid at Amazon.co.uk. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 23, 2008, 12:42:36 PM
Quote from: edward on May 23, 2008, 12:39:51 PM
It's a superb piece, IMO, and belies its fix-up nature (it was assembled from sections written over a rather large period of time). I've got Hickox on EMI (coupled with the equally fine if rather less immediately awe-inspiring Sancta Civitas) and I notice it appears to be for sale for four quid at Amazon.co.uk. ;)

Reading my mind! Hehe $:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on May 23, 2008, 01:00:45 PM
The Hickox performance of 'Dona nobis pacem' is-in my opinion-extremely fine. I think that Hickox is a particularly good conductor of big choral pieces and the intense power of both pieces on that disc is, I believe, conveyed with immense sincerity and beauty. Bryn Terfel is a magnificent solist in both works.

There is also a splendid recording of 'Dona nobis pacem' by Sir Adrian Boult on EMI with John Carol Case(who featured in tonight's documentary) as soloist.

Re the documentary...I missed the first half and will try to catch it on BBC Iplayer before commenting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on May 23, 2008, 01:26:49 PM


     This recording of Dona Nobis Pacem with Abravanel/Utah SO is paired with a fine account of the 6th Symphony which has been mentioned a number of times.

     (http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/6169/vaughanwilliams6donanobxz4.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2008, 02:10:36 AM
I'm pleased to say that my DVD recording of the documentary came out fine. I'll record it again tonight when it is repeated on BBC 4 and post the DVD to Jezetha on Tuesday.

I thought that the programme was great; more coherent, in a way, than the excellent 3 hour documentary shown here (UK) on New Year's Day. All the symphonies, other than Antartica, were featured and some works, like Dona Nobis Pacem, which did not feature at all in the earlier documentary (sadly no Sancta Civitas...his most beautiful choral work). The contributions from Ursula were very touching and the usual suspects were there; Michael Kennedy, Roy Douglas and Anthony Payne who, surprisingly I thought in view of his work on Elgar's Third Symphony said that he thought that VW was the greater composer. I enjoyed the description of VW's physical appearance; "like a sofa with the stuffing falling out" Some fascinating, albeit brief, archive film footage of Vaughan Williams as well as his spoken commentary for the documentary film "Dim Little Island"  Despite the more candid revelations about VW's affair with Ursula, I thought that he still emerged as a thoroughly decent and humane individual as well as being such a wonderful composer. The story of Ralph, Adeline and Ursula all together, holding hands during a wartime bombing raid was very touching (no pun intended). Evidently Ralph and Adeline were in their separate beds, with Ursula lying on a mattress between them.

As for Dona Nobis Pacem, I agree with Johan (Christo) that the best recordings are Thomson on Chandos or Boult on an excellent two disc EMI collection (the best of those compilations I think).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2008, 02:15:00 AM
Great review, Jeffrey! First Lethe, then you - now I am really looking forward to watching it (but receiving the DVD first, of course).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2008, 02:39:38 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on May 24, 2008, 02:15:00 AM
Great review, Jeffrey! First Lethe, then you - now I am really looking forward to watching it (but receiving the DVD first, of course).

Good Morning Johan and thank you!

You will enjoy the programme, I am sure. The Dona Nobis Pacem sequence was especially good, with effective synchronization of scenes of artillery fire on the Western Front in World War One, with the more explosive moments from the score.  I thought that this worked much better than the scenes of horrific carnage from modern conflict, juxtaposed with the 9th Symphony in the earlier documentary. It was certainly less contrived and it rang far truer in this case. Last night's programme also featured a lovely vocal setting "Silence and Music" to words by Ursula and one of "Four Last Songs", neither of which I had heard before. It is a bank holiday here on Monday, so I will post on Tuesday.

Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2008, 02:41:25 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 23, 2008, 01:26:49 PM

     This recording of Dona Nobis Pacem with Abravanel/Utah SO is paired with a fine account of the 6th Symphony which has been mentioned a number of times.

     (http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/6169/vaughanwilliams6donanobxz4.jpg)


This is currently available in this format:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on May 24, 2008, 03:27:39 AM
Excellent review Jeffrey, thanks. I have bought the 3 hour documentary you were referring to, and it was/is very interesting indeed. So am now looking forward to watch this recent documentary. VW's music is very dear to me and that being the case it is important for me also to know more about the man behind the music.

Th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
Strongly recommend the CD below. It is my favourite of the various two CD collections of music by Vaughan Williams. It contains Boults fine recording of Dona Nobis Pacem and some other fine lesser known works, including the beautiful Magnificat, Sargent's underrated recording of the Tallis Fantasia (which is the version I most often play...he is an underrated conductor), Larry Adler performing the late Harmonica Romance and much else besides.  Furthermore, it sees the return of a quirkily memorable work, which I really like, the "Fantasia (quasi variazone) on the Old 104th Psalm Tune." This originally appeared with Boult's EMI recording of the Ninth Symphony and has not been seen since; despite my brother commenting to me that it reminded him of that old children's favourite "Sparky's Magic Piano", I think that it is a fine and unusual work, with the piano playing a dominant role. It is one of those late craggy works by Vaughan Williams (like the late Violin Sonata and Epithalamion), which are oddly compelling.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2008, 03:38:50 AM
Quote from: Thom on May 24, 2008, 03:27:39 AM
Excellent review Jeffrey, thanks. I have bought the 3 hour documentary you were referring to, and it was/is very interesting indeed. So am now looking forward to watch this recent documentary. VW's music is very dear to me and that being the case it is important for me also to know more about the man behind the music.

Th.

Thom,

You will really enjoy the new documentary. I think that it compliments the earlier one. This year has seen 4 great hours of VW documentaries. Really though, the BBC should have scheduled the programme on one of the main channels (BBC1 or BBC 2) instead of the satellite channel.

Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 24, 2008, 04:01:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 24, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
Strongly recommend the CD below. It is my favourite of the various two CD collections of music by Vaughan Williams. It contains Boults fine recording of Dona Nobis Pacem and some other fine lesser known works, including the beautiful Magnificat, Sargent's underrated recording of the Tallis Fantasia (which is the version I most often play...he is an underrated conductor), Larry Adler performing the late Harmonica Romance and much else besides.  Furthermore, it sees the return of a quirkily memorable work, which I really like, the "Fantasia (quasi variazone) on the Old 104th Psalm Tune." This originally appeared with Boult's EMI recording of the Ninth Symphony and has not been seen since; despite my brother commenting to me that it reminded him of that old children's favourite "Sparky's Magic Piano", I think that it is a fine and unusual work, with the piano playing a dominant role. It is one of those late craggy works by Vaughan Williams (like the late Violin Sonata and Epithalamion), which are oddly compelling.

Sounds neat :) If I grab this one, what would you recommend for Sanca Civitas, or is Hickox the only option? (I am now determined to make a stab at hearing all the RVW I possibly can - I'm surprised how much I have missed.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on May 24, 2008, 05:43:21 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 24, 2008, 04:01:29 AM
I am now determined to make a stab at hearing all the RVW I possibly can - I'm surprised how much I have missed.

Go for it all! You can't go wrong here. I love everything by him. Not one of his excellent symphonies is like its predecessor. His vocal works are magnificent, and his concertos are favourites of mine (the Oboe concerto, the Concerto Grosso and the wonderful partita for double string orchestra). As far as the sancta civitas is concerned, mine is the Hickox one, which suits me fine, but i can not compare.

Th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2008, 07:27:16 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 24, 2008, 04:01:29 AM
Sounds neat :) If I grab this one, what would you recommend for Sanca Civitas, or is Hickox the only option? (I am now determined to make a stab at hearing all the RVW I possibly can - I'm surprised how much I have missed.)

Lethe,

This is my favourite version of Sancta Civitas, conducted by David Willcocks and it would be my top recommendation for its ethereal atmosphere. It is, however, the one which I grew up with on LP, so there is a sentimental attachment. Rozhdesvensky recorded a fine version on BBC Radio Classics (with Symphony 5) but that is long gone and only available at absurdly inflated prices. You wont go wrong with the Hickox CD which is a great coupling but don't rule out the Willcocks recording.


Jeffrey



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2008, 07:40:51 AM
Strongly recommend this excellent new release. Sargent's VW No 4 (BBC SO) was previously on BBC Radio Classics (with Stokowski's No 8, now on Cala). I think that Sargent's performance of Symphony 4 is my favourite, especially the first movement which has a relentless urgency, unlike any other recording (even VW's own). It is from the 1963 Proms and there is a great atmosphere. The unique coupling; Sibelius Symphony 4 is also desirable. A "warmer" performance than usual but with great atmosphere too:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 24, 2008, 10:15:08 AM
Any chance you'll upload it somewhere? I'm not too much of an expert in video things (but in audio ;) ) - But I know the knowledge about all this is at http://www.doom9.org/ forum...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on May 25, 2008, 06:55:47 AM
I am not sure if the BBC I-Player is available from outside the UK but the documentary is now available on there :

clicky (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b00bfmt4.shtml?order=aztitle%3Aalphabetical&filter=category%3A100006&scope=iplayercategories&start=1&version_pid=b00bfmn5)

I had never heard any RVW before seeing it last night on BBC 4 - I must confess only 2 extracts caught my attention for further exploration : the Tallis Fantasia, and the 5th symphony.

High quality documentary in any case - well worth the licence fee  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 25, 2008, 07:16:25 AM
Quote from: papy on May 25, 2008, 06:55:47 AM
I am not sure if the BBC I-Player is available from outside the UK but the documentary is now available on there :

clicky (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b00bfmt4.shtml?order=aztitle%3Aalphabetical&filter=category%3A100006&scope=iplayercategories&start=1&version_pid=b00bfmn5)

I had never heard any RVW before seeing it last night on BBC 4 - I must confess only 2 extracts caught my attention for further exploration : the Tallis Fantasia, and the 5th symphony.

High quality documentary in any case - well worth the licence fee  ;D



Can you actually download it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on May 25, 2008, 07:41:27 AM
Hi Johan

It is actually downloadable but with some restrictions :

Downloading a programme means that the whole programme is sent as a .wmv file to your computer. This programme file is will be stored on your hard drive for up to 30 days. You then have up to seven days from when you start watching the programme to when it will expire. You can manage all your downloaded programme files through the BBC iPlayer Download Manager, which you can access or by clicking on My Downloads.

Note: You cannot watch a programme until all of it has downloaded to your computer, but you can store it for up to 30 days in your Download Manager. You then have up to seven days from when you start watching a programme to finish watching it.

You need to use the BBC iPlayer Download Manager to do this, and only computers with Windows XP or Vista operating systems can download programmes. This is due to the digital rights management and sharing technology we use.


Could you actually watch the documentary itself on the link i gave ? just curious if they allow this out of the UK, for licence purposes...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 25, 2008, 07:42:37 AM
Quote from: papy on May 25, 2008, 06:55:47 AMI am not sure if the BBC I-Player is available from outside the UK but the documentary is now available on there :
"Sorry, this programme is only available to play in the UK"

While you watch it and have it fully cached, maybe you find the video file in your browsers temporary location? Watch out for file date and size which correspond with your video file. This way, I had some success with flash files and opera (Opera stores in a directory called 'cache4').
Just an idea.

EDIT: :( Well accoording to papy's latest posting it's drm'ed wmv, which is bad.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 25, 2008, 07:48:45 AM
I use Opera, too. Blasted drm! I wonder whether this .wmv file will selfdestruct after 30 days?!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on May 25, 2008, 08:06:27 AM
Turns out the specs of my PC are too old to use the BBC download manager - i gave it a try anyway but that crashed everything, so not going further in the experiment  :-\
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 25, 2008, 08:29:57 AM
Quote from: papy on May 25, 2008, 08:06:27 AM
Turns out the specs of my PC are too old to use the BBC download manager - i gave it a try anyway but that crashed everything, so not going further in the experiment  :-\

We don't want you to wreck your computer! A pity you can't see it, though...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on May 25, 2008, 08:37:20 AM
it only took an uninstall and a reboot to bring things back in order  ;D

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 25, 2008, 08:47:40 AM
Phew! That's a relief. I only narrowly averted cardiac arrest...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 30, 2008, 12:54:05 PM
Since one or two weeks (?), all Amazons and other music stores of this planet, are presenting an EMI 30CD box called The Collector's Edition, to be released towards the end of June. And costing around 40 GBP, 60 USD, 50 Euros. Does anyone know, what recordings these are? Supposedly most of the well-known EMI recordings of the last decades? Any news on that?

                          (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61W3ZvHH-kL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Wanderer on May 30, 2008, 01:10:09 PM
Quote from: Christo on May 30, 2008, 12:54:05 PM
Since one or two weeks (?), all Amazons and other music stores of this planet, are presenting an EMI 30CD box called The Collector's Edition, to be released towards the end of June. And costing around 40 GBP, 60 USD, 50 Euros. Does anyone know, what recordings these are? Supposedly most of the well-known EMI recordings of the last decades? Any news on that?

                          (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61W3ZvHH-kL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)



CD 1

A Sea Symphony - Joan Rogers, William Shimell / RLPO / Vernon Handley

CD 2

London Symphony & Symphony No. 8 - RLPO / Vernon Handley

CD 3

Pastoral Symphony and Symphony No. 4 Alison Barlow, RLPO / Vernon Handley

CD 4

Oboe Concerto & Symphony No. 5 - Jonathan Small, RLPO / Vernon Handley

CD 5

Symphonies Nos. 6 & 9 - RLPO / Vernon Handley

CD 6

Serenade to Music (choral), Partita for Double String Orchestra, Sinfonia Antartica - RLPO / Vernon Handley

CD 7

The Wasps Suite, Prelude & Fugue in C minor, Piano Concerto in C - LPO / RLPO / Piers Lane / Vernon Handley

CD 8

Piano Concerto in C for two pianos, Job - Vitya Vronsky, Victor Babin / LPO / Adrian Boult

CD 9

Serenade to Music (16 soloists), English Folk Song Suite (orch), Norfolk Rhapsody, The Lark Ascending etc - High Bean / LSO / New Phil Orch / Adrian Boult

CD 10

Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, English Folk Song Suite (band), Concerto grosso, Tuba Concerto, - Various Artists

CD 11

Serenade to Music (orch), King Cole, 5 Mystical Songs, Sea Songs etc. Northern Sinfonia of England / Richard Hickox

CD 12

Variations for Brass Band (orch), Concerto accademico for violin and orchestra in D minor, String Quartet No. 1 - Bournemouth SO / Northern SInfonia of England / Richard Hickox / Britten Quartet

CD 13

Violin Sonata in A minor, String Quartet  No. 2 etc - Music Group of London

CD 14

Toward the Unknown Region, Dona nobis pacem, Magnificat etc - LPO / Adrian Boult

CD 15

An Oxford Elegy, Flos campi, Whitsunday Hymn, Sancta Civitas - KCC / LSO / David Willcocks

CD 16

Five Tudor Portraits, Benedicite, FIve variants of 'Dives and Lazarus - John Carol Cawe, Bcah Choir, New Phil Orch / LSO / David Willcocks

CD 17

Hodie, Fantasia on Christmas Carols (w/strings & organ) - Janet Baker, Bach Choir / LSO / David Willcocks

CD 18

Fantasia on Christmas Carols (w/orch), In Windsor Forest, SOngs of travel, On Wenlock Edge - Various Artists

CD 19

Mass in G minor, All People that on Earth Do Dwell, Te Deum in G, Three Preludes on Welsh Hymn tunes, othern sacred choral - KCC / David Willcocks

CD 20

Four Hymns, Merciless Beauty, Ten Blake Songs, Wenlock Edge - Ian Partridge / Music Group of London

CD 21

The House of Life, Songs of Travel (piano) - Anthony Rolfe Johnson / David Willison

CD 22

Songs with piano, choral folksong arrangements - Various Artists

CD 23

Solo folksong arrangements, A Song of Thanksgiving - LPO / Adrian Boult 

CD 24

Epithalamion, Riders to the Sea - LPO / David Willcocks / Orch Nova of London / Meredith Davies

CD 25 & CD 26

Hugh the Drover - Robert Tear Sheila Armstrong, Michael Rippon, Robert Lloyd / Choristers of St Paul's Cathedral / RPO / Charles Groves

CD 27 & CD 28

Sir John in Love - Felicity Palmer, Robert Tear, Robert Lloyd, Helen Watts, New Phil Orch / Meredith Davies

CD 29 & CD 30

Pilgrim's Progress & rehearsal sequence - Ian Partridge, John Shirley-Quirk, Jean Temperley, John Noble / LPC / LPO / Adrian Boult
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on May 31, 2008, 04:48:07 AM
Nothing new there.  :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 31, 2008, 09:56:25 AM
Quote from: sound67 on May 31, 2008, 04:48:07 AM
Nothing new there.  :(

Indeed. Still, I don't own CDs nos. 27/28 (Sir John in Love) yet, and should perhaps buy the set for its sake alone ...  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 31, 2008, 02:45:59 PM
I wish that EMI would reissue Paavo Berglund's Bournemouth recording of Symphony 6: Very frustrating that it has been (once again) missed out in all the 50th anniversary stuff.

On a separate note HMV have issued a useful four CD box "The Essential Vaughan Williams Collection" (not to be confused with a new EMI double CD with the same title). There is much overlap between the two sets but the HMV box is better value at £15 in the UK. It includes "A Sea Symphony" (Haitink), "A London Symphony" (Boult EMI version). "On Wenlock Edge" (Partridge etc), "Job" (Hickox)...excellent version..never heard it before. "Serenade to Music" (Boult), "Mass" (Willcocks), "All people that on earth do dwell"+ that well known disc of Boult doing "The Lark Ascending" (Bean), Wasps Overture, Engish Folk Song Suite, Norfolk Rhaosody, Greensleeves Fantasia+ Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus (Del Mar) and Tallis Fantasia (Barbirolli). Hickox's "Job" was the most interesting discovery for me.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 31, 2008, 10:36:02 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 31, 2008, 02:45:59 PM
I wish that EMI would reissue Paavo Berglund's Bournemouth recording of Symphony 6: Very frustrating that it has been (once again) missed out in all the 50th anniversary stuff.

Obviously my wish is EMI's command ;D

Here it is. Most interesting anniversary release as Gibson's No 5 and Berglund's No 6 were only ever very briefly available on a very old HMV own label CD. They are both excellent performances.

Stupid wasp photo on sleeve however.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on June 14, 2008, 05:31:24 AM
Got the Tony Palmer DVD in the mail yesterday, along with Spano's new account of the 5th Symphony and Vaughan Williams' own historic (1952) performance, coupled with a 1936 Dona Nobis Pacem. (http://www.smilies.4-user.de/include/Grosse/smilie_gr_136.gif)


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2008, 05:37:10 AM
BBC Music Magazine has a whole issue devoted to Vaughan Williams (July Issue). Now in the UK shops.  The accompanying CD features Symphony No 5 (BBC SO 2007 Proms, Andrew Davis) and the Mass in G Minor.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2008, 05:44:02 AM
Quote from: sound67 on June 14, 2008, 05:31:24 AM
Got the Tony Palmer DVD in the mail yesterday, along with Spano's new account of the 5th Symphony and Vaughan Williams' own historic (1952) performance, coupled with a 1936 Dona Nobis Pacem. (http://www.smilies.4-user.de/include/Grosse/smilie_gr_136.gif)

The VW Symphony No 5/Dona Nobis Pacem, conducted by VW is a wonderful CD. I am seeing The Pilgrim's Progress as my birthday treat next weekend. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on June 14, 2008, 06:23:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2008, 05:37:10 AM
BBC Music Magazine has a whole issue devoted to Vaughan Williams (July Issue). Now in the UK shops.  The accompanying CD features Symphony No 5 (BBC SO 2007 Proms, Andrew Davis) and the Mass in G Minor.



I have just noticed, Jeffrey...you have started posting CD covers! You have obviously mastered the technique!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2008, 06:43:32 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on June 14, 2008, 06:23:54 AM
I have just noticed, Jeffrey...you have started posting CD covers! You have obviously mastered the technique!

Thanks to you Colin. There's no stopping me now with my advanced knowledge of technical wizardry  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 14, 2008, 06:54:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2008, 06:43:32 AM
Thanks to you Colin. There's no stopping me now with my advanced knowledge of technical wizardry  ;D

I'll upgrade my system specs. The Sussex Whizzkid is coming...  :o ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2008, 11:40:08 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 14, 2008, 06:54:11 AM
I'll upgrade my system specs. The Sussex Whizzkid is coming...  :o ;D

;) ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 14, 2008, 11:54:50 AM
I am going to watch 'O Thou Transcendent' either this evening or tomorrow. I have seen the BBC documentary last week, thanks to you, Jeffrey. I'll be able to compare and contrast.

I liked the documentary. One criticism: if your theme is 'the artist inspired to make great things by the female of the species', I want some stab at a possible explanation why this should be so. It's not at all self-evident. Think of all the nth-rate poetry inspired by love... Now you simply got a mention and/or picture of every woman RVW ever took a fancy to or found attractive. Which is the kind of thing most heterosexual males would recognize, but tells us nothing about creativity and its origins.

As a writer who thinks he understands something of the mechanisms involved, I would have been interested to learn something new.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2008, 11:32:25 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 14, 2008, 11:54:50 AM
I am going to watch 'O Thou Transcendent' either this evening or tomorrow. I have seen the BBC documentary last week, thanks to you, Jeffrey. I'll be able to compare and contrast.

I liked the documentary. One criticism: if your theme is 'the artist inspired to make great things by the female of the species', I want some stab at a possible explanation why this should be so. It's not at all self-evident. Think of all the nth-rate poetry inspired by love... Now you simply got a mention and/or picture of every woman RVW ever took a fancy to or found attractive. Which is the kind of thing most heterosexual males would recognize, but tells us nothing about creativity and its origins.

As a writer who thinks he understands something of the mechanisms involved, I would have been interested to learn something new.

You make a very interesting point Johan. My own feeling is that because Vaughan Williams' private life (especially his relationship with Adeline and Ursula) was such a closed book until now (Ursula's biography, good as it is, is something of an account of VW's desk diary rather than an attempted exploration of his inner life and relationships), there was bound to be an over-reaction the other way after the death of Ursula. Hence Michael Kennedy's description of Symphony 4 as "rage against Adeline". I am unconvinced, although the revelations about VW's affair with Ursula, her wartime pregnancy by Ralph (possibly) when she was still married to her first husband do help us to fill out the picture of VW. Nothing I saw on either documentary really changed the way I feel about VW as a man of great integrity and a truly great composer. The juxtaposition of images of dead children, in horrific war newsreel footage, alonside Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony, in the Palmer TV documentary was the least convincing thing I saw in either film.

Good articles in the BBC Music Mag this month on VW and a nice CD with Andrew Davis doing Symph 5 (better than his studio recording I think).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2008, 09:15:30 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 14, 2008, 11:54:50 AM
I liked the documentary. One criticism: if your theme is 'the artist inspired to make great things by the female of the species', I want some stab at a possible explanation why this should be so. It's not at all self-evident. Think of all the nth-rate poetry inspired by love... Now you simply got a mention and/or picture of every woman RVW ever took a fancy to or found attractive. Which is the kind of thing most heterosexual males would recognize, but tells us nothing about creativity and its origins.

Excellent point.

The fact is, that inspiration for creative work comes from many sources, not all of them 'emotionally close' to the artist.

Trying to tie all (or even, the most 'important') aspects of an artist's creative work, to love/romance, makes for long shelf-life, but is as red a herring as ever flew.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2008, 09:16:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2008, 11:32:25 PM
You make a very interesting point Johan. My own feeling is that because Vaughan Williams' private life (especially his relationship with Adeline and Ursula) was such a closed book until now (Ursula's biography, good as it is, is something of an account of VW's desk diary rather than an attempted exploration of his inner life and relationships), there was bound to be an over-reaction the other way after the death of Ursula. Hence Michael Kennedy's description of Symphony 4 as "rage against Adeline". I am unconvinced, although the revelations about VW's affair with Ursula, her wartime pregnancy by Ralph (possibly) when she was still married to her first husband do help us to fill out the picture of VW. Nothing I saw on either documentary really changed the way I feel about VW as a man of great integrity and a truly great composer. The juxtaposition of images of dead children, in horrific war newsreel footage, alonside Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony, in the Palmer TV documentary was the least convincing thing I saw in either film.

Yes, we quickly reach a point when the 'documentary' is more about the creator of the documentary, than about the ostensible subject thereof.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2008, 12:49:57 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 15, 2008, 09:16:56 AM
Yes, we quickly reach a point when the 'documentary' is more about the creator of the documentary, than about the ostensible subject thereof.

V good point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on June 16, 2008, 02:35:49 PM
I can understand the attempt to put a composer's work in the context of his personal experiences-of war or of love in VW's case. The context can go far to explain the background to his thinking and can therefore do much to help the listener to understand what the music is about. It can however be taken too far and colour the listener's appreciation in ways the composer himself did not actually intend. VW himself-presumably-intended that we listen to his music as music not as a reflection of his sexual frustrations! I watched the BBC documentary with a degree of unease. I welcome the attempt to dispel VW's image as a cuddly old buffer who wrote outdated 'cowpat' music with little relevance to the modern world but I don't really want to dwell over much on his family life or the difficulties of his first marriage any more than I want to listen to Beethoven and think about his foul temper!

I agree, Jeffrey, that the articles in this month's BBC Music Magazine are very interesting and a cut above many of the articles usually found in that publication. They certainly do VW proud. You will have noticed that Hickox's is the preferred choice for No.6-totally against the grain of most contributers to this site!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 16, 2008, 11:12:44 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on June 16, 2008, 02:35:49 PM
You will have noticed that Hickox's is the preferred choice for No.6-totally against the grain of most contributers to this site!!

Interesting indeed! I didn't even dare to buy the Hickox VI - as it met with such a general disapproval. But since I, no doubt caused by my regrettable lack of insight, tend to disagree with some other common opinions too (I don't prefer Davis' Sixth and I happen to love Thompson's), and since I appreciate Hickox's Fifth, especially, I'll now invest in this CD too:

                                      (http://www.smr-group.net/hfr_discartwork/vw_symphonies_01t.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 17, 2008, 05:26:14 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 16, 2008, 11:12:44 PM
Interesting indeed! I didn't even dare to buy the Hickox VI - as it met with such a general disapproval. But since I, no doubt caused by my regrettable lack of insight, tend to disagree with some other common opinions too (I don't prefer Davis' Sixth and I happen to love Thompson's), and since I appreciate Hickox's Fifth, especially, I'll now invest in this CD too:

                                      (http://www.smr-group.net/hfr_discartwork/vw_symphonies_01t.jpg)

I like the Davis and the Thomson. Boult's 1950s Decca is the best IMHO. The Hickox was a great disappointment but I will give it another listen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on June 18, 2008, 05:37:38 AM
I won't. Time is precious.   ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: btpaul674 on June 18, 2008, 11:44:03 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 16, 2008, 11:12:44 PM
Interesting indeed! I didn't even dare to buy the Hickox VI - as it met with such a general disapproval. But since I, no doubt caused by my regrettable lack of insight, tend to disagree with some other common opinions too (I don't prefer Davis' Sixth and I happen to love Thompson's), and since I appreciate Hickox's Fifth, especially, I'll now invest in this CD too:

                                      (http://www.smr-group.net/hfr_discartwork/vw_symphonies_01t.jpg)

I don't think the 8th on this disc is that bad. The toccata is amazing. I have yet to find a toccata that is as good as this one. The 6th is a different story.  :-\
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 19, 2008, 02:56:10 PM
Strongly recommend the CD below if you like VW Symphony 6; Benjamin's Symphony is a similarly troubled and visionary score. One of the discoveries of last year for me:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 19, 2008, 03:01:46 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 19, 2008, 02:56:10 PM
Stronly recommend the CD below if you like VW Symphony 6; Benjamin's Symphony is a similarly troubled and visionary score. One of the discoveries of last year for me.

Thanks for reminding me of this CD. They have it on eMusic. I am going to listen to the symphony very soon...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 22, 2008, 11:10:26 PM
I attended a wonderful performance (semi-staged) of the Pilgrim's Progress at Sadler's Wells in London as my birthday treat yesterday (Hickox, Philharmonia, Roderick Williams etc). I was unprepared for the overwhelming emotional reaction to seeing this live. It has to be one of the best concerts I have been to.

The programme booklet was really good as it covers all the concerts given by the Philharmonia in this anniversary year (ie all nine symphonies etc) with articles by Michael Kennedy etc. I am going back on 2nd November, hopefully, to see them play symphonies 9, 6 and 5 at the Festival Hall. If any VW admirers want me to get the booklet for them, I am happy to do so (it costs £3.50).

Interesting articles and videos on site below:

http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/vaughan_williams/
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2008, 11:21:50 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 22, 2008, 11:10:26 PM
I attended a wonderful performance (semi-staged) of the Pilgrim's Progress at Sadler's Wells in London as my birthday treat yesterday (Hickox, Philharmonia, Roderick Williams etc). I was unprepared for the overwhelming emotional reaction to seeing this live. It has to be one of the best concerts I have been to.

The programme booklet was really good as it covers all the concerts given by the Philharmonia in this anniversary year (ie all nine symphonies etc) with articles by Michael Kennedy etc. I am going back on 2nd November, hopefully, to see them play symphonies 9, 6 and 5 at the Festival Hall. If any VW admirers want me to get the booklet for them, I am happy to do so (it costs £3.50).

My belated congratulations, Jeffrey! And what a perfect birthday present. A pity I can't be there on 2nd November. I have never heard RVW live...  :'(

(I still have to watch "O Thou Transcendent", btw. Must find a 'slot' for it...)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2008, 01:42:33 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 22, 2008, 11:21:50 PM
My belated congratulations, Jeffrey! And what a perfect birthday present. A pity I can't be there on 2nd November. I have never heard RVW live...  :'(

(I still have to watch "O Thou Transcendent", btw. Must find a 'slot' for it...)

Thanks Johan,

all best wishes

Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 23, 2008, 03:13:44 AM
Happy belated birthday, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 23, 2008, 03:39:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2008, 03:13:44 AM
Happy belated birthday, Jeffrey!

Seconded!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on June 23, 2008, 04:41:34 AM
Thirded :P

Is this the horribly out of print (even on CD) 4th that people say is rather good? Even though I don't have any means to play vinyl atm, I am tempted to snap it up...

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7710/79076601nu4.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Thom on June 23, 2008, 04:53:19 AM
Many happy returns from me as well, Jeffrey!

Thom
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 23, 2008, 05:22:55 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 23, 2008, 04:41:34 AM
Thirded :P

Is this the horribly out of print (even on CD) 4th that people say is rather good? Even though I don't have any means to play vinyl atm, I am tempted to snap it up...

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7710/79076601nu4.jpg)

This quote from Musicweb is perhaps helpful:

"... we shouldn’t forget a number of other highly successful readings, including two by Boult, on Decca (mono) and later on EMI, Berglund, also on EMI, and, a particular favourite, Bernstein on Sony, whose violins sing their hearts out in that first movement tune."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2008, 12:34:58 AM
Karl, Johan, Thom, Lethe.

THANK YOU  :)

Berglund's Vaughan Williams Symphony No 4 is just back, with his terrific sibelian Symphony No 6 (one of the few successful recordings, much better than the Hickox in my view) and Gibson's underrated Symphony No 5. I did a review on Amazon. Here is a link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Nos-6/dp/B0018OAP2U/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214296116&sr=1-7


Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on June 24, 2008, 04:11:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 24, 2008, 12:34:58 AM
Berglund's Vaughan Williams Symphony No 4 is just back, with his terrific sibelian Symphony No 6 (one of the few successful recordings, much better than the Hickox in my view) and Gibson's underrated Symphony No 5. I did a review on Amazon. Here is a link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Nos-6/dp/B0018OAP2U/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214296116&sr=1-7

Ah, how ideal, I can finally buy it. Thanks! :D I bet the greedy person selling the old issue for £44 on Amazon marketplace is wishing he sold it sooner, at a more sane price.

Edit: Hmm with the very good Silv. Tallis fantasia (which I've heard before from Operashare) and a decent recording of the oboe concerto along with the core syms, this could probably be a superb intro CD to one skeptical of RVW in general - I'll take note if I ever encounter such a person 0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2008, 05:36:14 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 24, 2008, 04:11:31 AM
Ah, how ideal, I can finally buy it. Thanks! :D I bet the greedy person selling the old issue for £44 on Amazon marketplace is wishing he sold it sooner, at a more sane price.

Edit: Hmm with the very good Silv. Tallis fantasia (which I've heard before from Operashare) and a decent recording of the oboe concerto along with the core syms, this could probably be a superb intro CD to one skeptical of RVW in general - I'll take note if I ever encounter such a person 0:)

Yes, it's a really good CD. Personally I'd have preferred them to use the old British Composers cover art (landscape photo of stormy scene) rather than a photo of a wasp's nest, but it's the music that counts. Having said that my work colleague likes the wasp photo. (my life is really boring isn't it  ::)).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 24, 2008, 05:39:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 24, 2008, 05:36:14 AM
Yes, it's a really good CD. Personally I'd have preferred them to use the old British Composers cover art (landscape photo of stormy scene) rather than a photo of a wasp's nest, but it's the music that counts. Having said that my work colleague likes the wasp photo. (my life is really boring isn't it  ::)).

I could listen to you all day. Don't stop.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2008, 05:42:51 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 24, 2008, 05:39:53 AM
I could listen to you all day. Don't stop.  ;D

:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on June 24, 2008, 06:58:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 24, 2008, 12:34:58 AM
Karl, Johan, Thom, Lethe.

THANK YOU  :)

Berglund's Vaughan Williams Symphony No 4 is just back, with his terrific sibelian Symphony No 6 (one of the few successful recordings, much better than the Hickox in my view) and Gibson's underrated Symphony No 5. I did a review on Amazon. Here is a link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Nos-6/dp/B0018OAP2U/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214296116&sr=1-7


Jeffrey

Sir Alexander Gibson in Vaughan Williams?? Astonishing! I cannot remember him programming much Vaughan Williams during his tenure as Principal Conductor of the Royal Scottish National Orchestra(the SNO as it was then). But, of course, VW was very much out of fashion in those days.

Gibson was a fine conductor but suffered from a lack of charisma, a lack of self-confidence and-very sadly-a decline in his later years after giving up his Scottish post. His contribution to music in Scotland-particularly Scottish Opera-was incalculable however.

At a time when only one British symphony orchestra is under the direction of a British conductor(the Halle under Mark Elder) it is worth recalling the glory days of conductors like Boult, Barbirolli, Groves, Pritchard, Del Mar, Gibson, Rignold and Thomson.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2008, 03:28:53 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on June 24, 2008, 06:58:13 AM
Sir Alexander Gibson in Vaughan Williams?? Astonishing! I cannot remember him programming much Vaughan Williams during his tenure as Principal Conductor of the Royal Scottish National Orchestra(the SNO as it was then). But, of course, VW was very much out of fashion in those days.

Gibson was a fine conductor but suffered from a lack of charisma, a lack of self-confidence and-very sadly-a decline in his later years after giving up his Scottish post. His contribution to music in Scotland-particularly Scottish Opera-was incalculable however.

At a time when only one British symphony orchestra is under the direction of a British conductor(the Halle under Mark Elder) it is worth recalling the glory days of conductors like Boult, Barbirolli, Groves, Pritchard, Del Mar, Gibson, Rignold and Thomson.


V good points Colin. Gibson's VW No 5 is excellent (as is his Sibelius box on Chandos).

Good review of concert I attended:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/stage/opera/article4192745.ece
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on June 24, 2008, 03:52:29 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 24, 2008, 03:28:53 PM

V good points Colin. Gibson's VW No 5 is excellent (as is his Sibelius box on Chandos).

Good review of concert I attended:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/stage/opera/article4192745.ece

Well said, Richard Morrison-a really sensible music critic! I am jealous of you living so near to London and being able to access such concerts :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on June 24, 2008, 04:03:44 PM
Gibson was a particularly fine Sibelian. I have a number of the Sibelius Tone Poems conducted by Gibson and his version of Symphony No.5.

I was told by an orchestral manager that in his later days he was difficult to engage as a conductor because he appeared to have lost confidence in his own ability to conduct. We all know of composers who ran out of inspiration or who felt that this was the case(Sibelius himself, Bax to an extent) but perhaps we forget that some conductors may feel the same way.

Hmm...think I ought to reflect more on this...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2008, 04:12:02 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on June 24, 2008, 04:03:44 PM
Gibson was a particularly fine Sibelian. I have a number of the Sibelius Tone Poems conducted by Gibson and his version of Symphony No.5.

I was told by an orchestral manager that in his later days he was difficult to engage as a conductor because he appeared to have lost confidence in his own ability to conduct. We all know of composers who ran out of inspiration or who felt that this was the case(Sibelius himself, Bax to an extent) but perhaps we forget that some conductors may feel the same way.

Hmm...think I ought to reflect more on this...

Good point Colin; sad about Alexander Gibson. You're up late tonight!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on June 24, 2008, 04:14:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 24, 2008, 04:12:02 PM
Good point Colin; sad about Alexander Gibson. You're up late tonight!

The advantages of retirement, Jeffrey :) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2008, 11:30:56 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on June 24, 2008, 04:14:01 PM
The advantages of retirement, Jeffrey :) :)

Yes, and I'm jealous of that! (back at work now >:()
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 26, 2008, 11:02:25 AM
I find that I am listening to the Pilgrim's Progress all the time now since seeing it live last Sunday (Hickox, Chandos recording). I am surprised that I ignored this work for so long.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 26, 2008, 11:04:18 AM
There's one I still know by title only.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on June 26, 2008, 11:32:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 26, 2008, 11:02:25 AM
I find that I am listening to the Pilgrim's Progress all the time now since seeing it live last Sunday (Hickox, Chandos recording). I am surprised that I ignored this work for so long.


I have the old Boult recording on EMI although I did read the rave reviews of the Hickox. One aspect of the older version are the rehearsal excerpts included on the CD. It is fascinating to listen to Sir Adrian rehearsing the work. What a marvellous English gentleman he was! A type probably now virtually extinct in this country-courteous, polite, old world charm. But what a magnificent musician! His contribution to British music in the 20th century will never die. Almost single-handedly he preserved the traditions and the reputations of many composers who might otherwise have sunk without trace. Ok I am being unfair to Barbirolli but you probably know what I mean :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 26, 2008, 11:46:14 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on June 26, 2008, 11:32:28 AM

I have the old Boult recording on EMI although I did read the rave reviews of the Hickox. One aspect of the older version are the rehearsal excerpts included on the CD. It is fascinating to listen to Sir Adrian rehearsing the work. What a marvellous English gentleman he was! A type probably now virtually extinct in this country-courteous, polite, old world charm. But what a magnificent musician! His contribution to British music in the 20th century will never die. Almost single-handedly he preserved the traditions and the reputations of many composers who might otherwise have sunk without trace. Ok I am being unfair to Barbirolli but you probably know what I mean :)

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I was lucky enough to see Boult conduct most of the VW symphonies live. His Lyrita Rubbra 7th Symphony is an especial favourite. I have the Boult Pilgrim's Progess too but in some ways the best CD version I have heard is the (unavailable ) Igor Kennaway Northern Opera version in front of an audience. It has the atmosphere of the live performance missing elsewhere (a work colleague lent it to me).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 26, 2008, 11:47:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2008, 11:04:18 AM
There's one I still know by title only.

If you like the 5th Symphony you should like the Pilgrim's Progress.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on June 26, 2008, 12:29:28 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 26, 2008, 11:46:14 AM
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I was lucky enough to see Boult conduct most of the VW symphonies live. His Lyrita Rubbra 7th Symphony is an especial favourite. I have the Boult Pilgrim's Progess too but in some ways the best CD version I have heard is the (unavailable ) Igor Kennaway Northern Opera version in front of an audience. It has the atmosphere of the live performance missing elsewhere (a work colleague lent it to me).

I am sure that I saw Boult conducting once but I cannot recall what or where. Tall, ramrod erect, looking like an Edwardian Colonel.

Sir Malcolm Sargent-who did some VW rather well but whose reputation is still sunk in the slough-conducted the first orchestral concert I attended: Holst's Planets back in the 50s.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 26, 2008, 12:47:30 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on June 26, 2008, 12:29:28 PM
I am sure that I saw Boult conducting once but I cannot recall what or where. Tall, ramrod erect, looking like an Edwardian Colonel.

Sir Malcolm Sargent-who did some VW rather well but whose reputation is still sunk in the slough-conducted the first orchestral concert I attended: Holst's Planets back in the 50s.

Sargent is underrated. His BBC Planets is one of the best+excellent Walton No 1, Tallis Fantasia, VW No 4, Sea Symphony+ my favourite Sibelius No 5.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: rubio on June 28, 2008, 09:47:38 AM
Are there some recommended recording of his string quartets? What do you think of these works?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 28, 2008, 09:53:24 AM
Quote from: rubio on June 28, 2008, 09:47:38 AM
Are there some recommended recording of his string quartets? What do you think of these works?

Both are quintessentially Vaughan Williams: the First from his `French' years, 1908, around the time of his short private study with Maurice Ravel, and indeed sounding as if he had had a tea with Debussy, the Second in his `mature' style, from the time of the Second World War, contemporary with the Fifth Symphony.

One of the best versions is by the Maggini Quartet for Naxos, offering an extra advantage in their coupling with the equally interesting Phantasy Quintet from 1912.

Recommended!    (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41nxegvrUGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

       
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 28, 2008, 11:24:45 AM
Quote from: rubio on June 28, 2008, 09:47:38 AM
Are there some recommended recording of his string quartets? What do you think of these works?

The Naxos is v good and, coincidentally, I just wrote some notes for a CD of the String Quartets and Phantasy Quartet coming out on 1st August on the budget label Alto. The is with the English String Quartet and was a highly regarded CD when it originally appeared on the Unicorn Kanchana Label. Johan is right, the First Quartet shown the influence of Ravel, whom VW had recently studied with, but such an influence is assimilated into VWs early style and the quartet shows the influence of Folk song too. The Second Quartet, a great work in my view, comes from a crucial transitional phase in VW's musical development, between the 5th and 6th symphonies. It is a turbulent wartime work, for three movements and then the finale (Epilogue) returns to the benedictory mood of the finale of the 5th Symphony. The Phantasy Quartet is a lovely early work c 1912.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 28, 2008, 12:40:52 PM
(http://www.emusic.com/img/album/110/122/11012288_155_155.jpeg)

I see this at eMusic. Worthwhile? How does it compare with the Naxos? Listening to a sample of the first movement of the Second SQ the Medici take things slower than the Maginni.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 29, 2008, 01:22:38 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 28, 2008, 12:40:52 PM
I see this at eMusic. Worthwhile? How does it compare with the Naxos? Listening to a sample of the first movement of the Second SQ the Medici take things slower than the Maginni.

Nimbus ... that's really a name from the early prehistory of the CD era - and era itself almost over and closed, by now. So, how could we know?  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 02, 2008, 11:24:39 AM
I went this morning to the Royal Library in The Hague. One of the books I came home with was the one by Wilfrid Mellers about RVW, which I intend to read asap.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 02, 2008, 11:33:51 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 02, 2008, 11:24:39 AM
I went this morning to the Royal Library in The Hague. One of the books I came home with was the one by Wilfrid Mellers about RVW, which I intend to read asap.

After almost a lifetime spent with wrong friends, you are improving your life tremendously.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 02, 2008, 11:40:40 AM
Quote from: Christo on July 02, 2008, 11:33:51 AM
After almost a lifetime spent with wrong friends, you are improving your life tremendously.  8)

You flatter me, my friend.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 02, 2008, 11:52:09 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 02, 2008, 11:40:40 AM
You flatter me, my friend.  8)

Hey, same glasses?   8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 02, 2008, 12:00:57 PM
No. (http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/glasses3.gif)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 02, 2008, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 28, 2008, 12:40:52 PM
(http://www.emusic.com/img/album/110/122/11012288_155_155.jpeg)

I see this at eMusic. Worthwhile? How does it compare with the Naxos? Listening to a sample of the first movement of the Second SQ the Medici take things slower than the Maginni.

I have these recordings in a nice Nimbus box set "A Portrait of Vaughan Williams" I find the Nimbus recordings to be rather more "intimate" than the Naxos; a warmer recording. The performances are just as good, if a little more expressive.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on July 12, 2008, 01:09:50 AM
There will be a lot of RVW in this year's proms (for obvious reasons). I think the whole cycle of symphonies will be played under various conductors.

Unfortunately, I will be able to attend just two: the 4th (under Yan-Pascal Tortelier) and the 8th (under Mark Elder).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 12, 2008, 01:43:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 02, 2008, 02:16:07 PM
I have these recordings in a nice Nimbus box set "A Portrait of Vaughan Williams" I find the Nimbus recordings to be rather more "intimate" than the Naxos; a warmer recording. The performances are just as good, if a little more expressive.

I'll keep it in mind. Thanks, Jeffrey.

Quote from: sound67 on July 12, 2008, 01:09:50 AM
Unfortunately, I will be able to attend just two: the 4th (under Yan-Pascal Tortelier) and the 8th (under Mark Elder).

Just two... I have never heard RVW live in my life.  :'(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 12, 2008, 02:51:23 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 12, 2008, 01:43:00 AM
Just two... I have never heard RVW live in my life.  :'(

They'r seldom played, in these low countries. I myself heard an amateur performance of the Fifth in Amsterdam in 1989. And just one professional performance: the Sinfonia Antartica: Petri Sakari conducting Het Brabants Orkest in a Christmas concert (!) in 's-Hertogenbosch (nice spelling test for our Britons here  ;) ) in 2001. (The local elite poking their noses in embarrassment, impressed by the chilly sounds.)

That's all, apart from a handful of fine amateur performances of the Tallis Fantasia, Oboe concerto, Violin concerto, Dona Nobis Pacem, Hodie: A Christmas Cantata, also heard in Utrecht, Amsterdam and Rotterdam from the 1980s till present. Even Tubin was better served: I attended fine performances of both his Fifth and Sixth symphonies here in Utrecht, under Arvo Volmer, and of a couple of his concertos elsewhere.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 12, 2008, 02:54:52 AM
Quote from: Christo on July 12, 2008, 02:51:23 AM
's-Hertogenbosch (nice spelling test for our Britons here  ;) )

Never mind the pronunciation.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on July 12, 2008, 03:46:36 AM
Has Bernard Haitink never conducted any RVW in his native country then? Does he indeed conduct much at all in the Netherlands these days? I seem to recall that his relationship with the Concertgebouw was not entirely happy at the end of his time as Music Director(or am I mistaken?)

There is a Dutch/South African cricketer(yes I love cricket too :)) who plays English county cricket for Essex called Ryan ten Doeschate. His name gave people here some trouble in the pronounciation stakes :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 12, 2008, 03:57:58 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 12, 2008, 03:46:36 AM
Has Bernard Haitink never conducted any RVW in his native country then? Does he indeed conduct much at all in the Netherlands these days? I seem to recall that his relationship with the Concertgebouw was not entirely happy at the end of his time as Music Director(or am I mistaken?)

There is a Dutch/South African cricketer(yes I love cricket too :)) who plays English county cricket for Essex called Ryan ten Doeschate. His name gave people here some trouble in the pronounciation stakes :)

Haitink - no, he never did, I'm afraid. His RVW adventures were solely constricted to his British exile.  ;) And you're not mistaken about his relationship with the Concertgebouw either, though the estrangement was temporary, af far as i can remember.

Is it really that hard to pronounce "Ryan"?  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on July 12, 2008, 04:03:25 AM
Quote from: Christo on July 12, 2008, 03:57:58 AM
Haitink - no, he never did, I'm afraid. His RVW adventures were solely constricted to his British exile.  ;) And you're not mistaken about his relationship with the Concertgebouw either, though the estrangement was temporary, af far as i can remember.

Is it really that hard to pronounce "Ryan"?  ;D

If you live in Essex perhaps it is :) :) (Note for those outside Britain-Essex is notorious(no doubt disgracefully unfairly :)) for its less than cultured inhabitants-thus, 'Essex Girls')
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 12, 2008, 05:35:45 AM
Quote from: Christo on July 12, 2008, 03:57:58 AM
Haitink - no, he never did, I'm afraid. His RVW adventures were solely constricted to his British exile.  ;)

Not quite.  He's a Conductor Emeritus of the BSO, and the only occasion when I have heard a Vaughan Williams symphony live, was when he led a wicked smashing performance of the Sixth here at Symphony Hall.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 12, 2008, 05:36:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 12, 2008, 05:35:45 AM
Not quite.  He's a Conductor Emeritus of the BSO, and the only occasion when I have heard a Vaughan Williams symphony live, was when he led a wicked smashing performance of the Sixth here at Symphony Hall.

Now now, Karl, mind your adverbs.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 12, 2008, 05:39:28 AM
 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 12, 2008, 05:40:31 AM
It would be obvious to a Bostonian, but wicked smashing and wickedly smashing mean entirely different things  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 12, 2008, 05:56:24 AM
It's a wicked obvious distinction even to this Dutchman...  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 12, 2008, 05:57:43 AM
Excellent, Johan! Er, I mean, wicked cool!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on July 12, 2008, 06:29:13 AM
Stop it at once ;) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 12, 2008, 06:37:45 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 12, 2008, 06:29:13 AM
Stop it at once ;) :)

No time Toulouse, eh?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on July 12, 2008, 07:04:42 AM
"...where the Lowells talk to the Cabots, and the Cabots talk only to God".
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on July 12, 2008, 08:56:10 AM
Quote from: sound67 on July 12, 2008, 01:09:50 AM
There will be a lot of RVW in this year's proms (for obvious reasons). I think the whole cycle of symphonies will be played under various conductors.

I hope that somebody takes them under their wing and rips them all at good bitrate to Operashare - or even better, videos for the ones that were broadcast on TV. If this happens I'll rehost and post them here, of course.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 12, 2008, 12:51:11 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 02, 2008, 12:00:57 PM
No. (http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/glasses3.gif)

No??? (http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/glasses3.gif)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 12, 2008, 01:07:24 PM
Quote from: Christo on July 12, 2008, 12:51:11 PM
No??? (http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/glasses3.gif)

Ah! Found it, you have! (http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/smiling17.gif)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 13, 2008, 07:54:23 AM
Quote from: Christo on July 12, 2008, 02:51:23 AM
's-Hertogenbosch (nice spelling test for our Britons here  ;)

Home of Hieronymus?

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 13, 2008, 08:16:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 13, 2008, 07:54:23 AM
Home of Hieronymus?

Of course - or Jeroen Bosch, as we say. 's-Hertogenbosch is the official name of the city. Den Bosch is more commonly used. (Cf. 's-Gravenhage and Den Haag.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on July 13, 2008, 07:03:08 PM

Has anyone dared to do the Antarctica without wind machine? I'm wondering if that would help it get taking a little more seriously....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 13, 2008, 11:55:11 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 13, 2008, 08:16:07 AM
Of course - or Jeroen Bosch, as we say. 's-Hertogenbosch is the official name of the city. Den Bosch is more commonly used. (Cf. 's-Gravenhage and Den Haag.)

One of my favourite artists, along with the equally mad James Ensor.

Below is Ensor's well-known painting:

'Meeting of CMG Forum enthusiasts in Leiden': ;D

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2008, 12:57:21 AM
Ensor has me down to a T. Incredible!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on July 14, 2008, 02:42:51 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 13, 2008, 07:03:08 PM
Has anyone dared to do the Antarctica without wind machine? I'm wondering if that would help it get taking a little more seriously....


Is it really true to say that the Sinfonia Antartica is not taken 'seriously'? That may have been the case at one time but I am not so sure is a view still held.

And would omitting the wind machine help? Richard Strauss used one in both 'Don Quixote' and the Alpine Symphony-both of which are taken seriously. So too, Ravel's 'Daphnis et Chloe' and Messiaen's ' Opera 'Saint-Francois d'Assise' and other works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2008, 02:48:26 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 14, 2008, 02:42:51 AM
Is it really true to say that the Sinfonia Antartica is not taken 'seriously'? That may have been the case at one time but I am not so sure is a view still held.

And would omitting the wind machine help? Richard Strauss used one in both 'Don Quixote' and the Alpine Symphony-both of which are taken seriously. So too, Ravel's 'Daphnis et Chloe' and Messiaen's ' Opera 'Saint-Francois d'Assise' and other works.

And Brian's Tenth Symphony...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 14, 2008, 02:51:01 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 13, 2008, 07:03:08 PM
Has anyone dared to do the Antarctica without wind machine?

The performance in Jeroen Bosch'/Hieronymus Bosch' birthplace, Den Bosch/'s-Hertogenbosch, I attended back in 2001, by the Brabants Orkest under Petri Sakari, was indeed done without windmachine. Most of that part, as far as I remember, was done by the (augmented?) horn section.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on July 14, 2008, 02:59:51 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 14, 2008, 02:48:26 AM
And Brian's Tenth Symphony...

Which is not taken ANYTHING like seriously enough :) ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on July 14, 2008, 03:14:29 AM
Quote from: Christo on July 14, 2008, 02:51:01 AM
The performance in Jeroen Bosch'/Hieronymus Bosch' birthplace, Den Bosch/'s-Hertogenbosch, I attended back in 2001, by the Brabants Orkest under Petri Sakari, was indeed done without windmachine. Most of that part, as far as I remember, was done by the (augmented?) horn section.

I do feel that a composer's wishes should be adhered to! If VW wanted a wind machine then that is what should be used(provided, of course, one is available!). Just like Havergal Brian's 2nd Symphony....if the man wants 16 horns then let's try to grant his wishes...!

Has anyone heard the Chandos CD "The Film Music of Ralph Vaughan Williams, Volume 1" on which the BBC Philharmonic(Rumon Gamba) play the Suite from the music for the film "Scott of the Antartic"? That is an interesting work, providing the complete music VW wrote for the film(later reworked for the Sinfonia) but NOT using a wind-machine!
It is quite remarkable that VW wrote the music without even seeing the script for the film. When one watches the fim itself(with less than half of VW's music included of course) one is struck by how incredibly fitting the music is! OK, the film IS dated and does have a very British stiff upper-lip portrayal of the doomed expedition but VW himself was very aware of the dangerous(and ultimately fatal) risks run by the polar party and sought to convey the dreadful tragedy as it unfolded. The combination of his music and the film itself is unbelievably potent. It is indeed as VW wrote in 1945 almost as if "the film (was) devised to accompany it(the music)"
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on July 14, 2008, 03:37:53 AM
The importance of Ernest Irving, music director at Ealing studios and orchestrator of SotA, in making the music fit the film should not be underestimated. Not all the music written and recorded for it was actually used in the final cut. I kind of prefer the film score to the symphony, which is not really symphonic anyway.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 14, 2008, 03:40:51 AM
And yet, I think it does work as a symphony. (No reason to omit the wind machine, IMO.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: bhodges on July 14, 2008, 12:17:32 PM
Today on Night After Night, Steve Smith posted a good piece (http://www.nightafternight.com/night_after_night/2008/07/pilgrims-progress.html) on Vaughan Williams, calling his symphonies "...quite possibly the most overlooked major cycle of the 20th century."

--Bruce
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 14, 2008, 12:33:28 PM
More overlooked than Holmboe?  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on July 14, 2008, 05:07:06 PM
Thanks for interesting responses. The reason I asked is that it seems to me that some fans of RVW are too prepared to dismiss the 7th as "mere film music" - see Sound67's comment. I wondered if presenting it more as "pure music" might correct this.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 15, 2008, 03:49:47 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 14, 2008, 12:57:21 AM
Ensor has me down to a T. Incredible!  ;D

Yes, you are the one in the top hat  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 15, 2008, 04:03:21 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 14, 2008, 03:14:29 AM
I do feel that a composer's wishes should be adhered to! If VW wanted a wind machine then that is what should be used(provided, of course, one is available!). Just like Havergal Brian's 2nd Symphony....if the man wants 16 horns then let's try to grant his wishes...!

Has anyone heard the Chandos CD "The Film Music of Ralph Vaughan Williams, Volume 1" on which the BBC Philharmonic(Rumon Gamba) play the Suite from the music for the film "Scott of the Antartic"? That is an interesting work, providing the complete music VW wrote for the film(later reworked for the Sinfonia) but NOT using a wind-machine!
It is quite remarkable that VW wrote the music without even seeing the script for the film. When one watches the fim itself(with less than half of VW's music included of course) one is struck by how incredibly fitting the music is! OK, the film IS dated and does have a very British stiff upper-lip portrayal of the doomed expedition but VW himself was very aware of the dangerous(and ultimately fatal) risks run by the polar party and sought to convey the dreadful tragedy as it unfolded. The combination of his music and the film itself is unbelievably potent. It is indeed as VW wrote in 1945 almost as if "the film (was) devised to accompany it(the music)"


Colin, I have all three VW film music CDs on Chandos (surprised? ;D), it is a great series. The CD below is also of great interest as it has Boult's fine earliest recording of Symphony 6 (EMI) and extracts from film music, including soundtrack extracts from the Scott music; also the highly characteristic "Loves of Joanna Godden" film score. I play this CD a lot:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2008, 04:13:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 15, 2008, 03:49:47 AM
Yes, you are the one in the top hat  ;D

I belie my years, don't I?  ;)

On topic: I am reading the late Wilfrid Mellers's book on RVW at last, Ralph Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion. A heady cocktail as usual. Stimulating. In the process I plan on watching O thou transcendent, too...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 15, 2008, 04:34:31 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 15, 2008, 04:13:35 AM
I belie my years, don't I?  ;)

On topic: I am reading the late Wilfrid Mellers's book on RVW at last, Ralph Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion. A heady cocktail as usual. Stimulating. In the process I plan on watching O thou transcendent, too...

Will be v interested to hear what you think of the documentary Johan. There is a really angry debate going on in the letters page of the Vaughan Williams's Society Journal at the moment about the documentary, which is fun. I am tempted to buy the forthcoming "Letters of Vaughan Williams" but it is expensive; £95 (or £60 for members of VW Soc for v limited time). My local library wont order it as it's so expensive  >:(

Off on my hols to Austria tomorrow so will not be compulsively posting for a week.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on July 15, 2008, 04:38:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 15, 2008, 04:34:31 AM
Will be v interested to hear what you think of the documentary Johan. There is a really angry debate going on in the letters page of the Vaughan Williams's Society Journal at the moment about the documentary, which is fun. I am tempted to buy the forthcoming "Letters of Vaughan Williams" but it is expensive; £95 (or £60 for members of VW Soc for v limited time). My local library wont order it as it's so expensive  >:(

Off on my hols to Austria tomorrow so will not be compulsively posting for a week.

Have a happy, peaceful and restful holiday! Don't spend too much money on those extravagantly expensive Austrian confectionery and stay away from CD shops in any Austrian city!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2008, 04:40:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 15, 2008, 04:34:31 AM
Will be v interested to hear what you think of the documentary Johan. There is a really angry debate going on in the letters page of the Vaughan Williams's Society Journal at the moment about the documentary, which is fun. I am tempted to buy the forthcoming "Letters of Vaughan Williams" but it is expensive; £95 (or £60 for members of VW Soc for v limited time). My local library wont order it as it's so expensive  >:(

Off on my hols to Austria tomorrow so will not be compulsively posting for a week.

I'll report back. And - give my regards to Austria, where I've never been, only in spirit... (And enjoy yourself, of course!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on July 15, 2008, 04:45:06 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 15, 2008, 04:40:21 AM
I'll report back. And - give my regards to Austria, where I've never been, only in spirit... (And enjoy yourself, of course!)

Beautiful, beautiful country!! Mountains and lakes, more mountains and lakes.....! But expensive :) So are Norway and Sweden, of course, but they speak more English there for we poor uncultured, benighted folk who have failed to learn foreign languages as we should :(
(I could have a pleasant holiday in the Roman Empire speaking my school-learned classical Latin if only the empire could return :))
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 15, 2008, 04:48:02 AM
Thank you Colin and Johan, you are kind.

 
I'm hoping that this will be a healthy walking holiday and as I am overweight I will have to keep away from the cakes etc (well, maybe not  >:D) I would love to visit St Florian and Ansfelden, with their Bruckner connections, but that is an unlikely scenario. I've only been to Austria once, on my one and only skiing trip, aged 12.

byebye for now  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 15, 2008, 06:37:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 15, 2008, 04:48:02 AM
I'm hoping that this will be a healthy walking holiday and as I am overweight I will have to keep away from the cakes etc (well, maybe not  >:D) I would love to visit St Florian and Ansfelden, with their Bruckner connections, but that is an unlikely scenario. I've only been to Austria once, on my one and only skiing trip, aged 12.

byebye for now  :)

Enjoy your time in the country of Franz Schmidt, (Bruckner died before Austria came into being  ;) ), Jeffrey!!  8) :D :)

(I'm leaving too, tonight, for the blessed isle of Crete, for two weeks. Planning to play my Kalomiris and Skalkottas collection there, and read Kazantzakis again - who was from Crete, there's even a Kazantzakis museum. Will also be having the Boult/EMI RVW box with me, otherwise this post would be completely OT  8))
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2008, 06:40:52 AM
Prettige vakantie, Johan! En kom veilig weer thuis (met je dierbaren).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 15, 2008, 12:13:44 PM
Quote from: Christo on July 15, 2008, 06:37:57 AM
Enjoy your time in the country of Franz Schmidt, (Bruckner died before Austria came into being  ;) ), Jeffrey!!  8) :D :)

(I'm leaving too, tonight, for the blessed isle of Crete, for two weeks. Planning to play my Kalomiris and Skalkottas collection there, and read Kazantzakis again - who was from Crete, there's even a Kazantzakis museum. Will also be having the Boult/EMI RVW box with me, otherwise this post would be completely OT  8))


OT

Thank you Johan. Have a great time in Crete with your VW box  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on July 18, 2008, 01:57:34 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 13, 2008, 07:03:08 PM
Has anyone dared to do the Antarctica without wind machine? I'm wondering if that would help it get taking a little more seriously....


     The impression I get, based on the reaction here at GMG and from what little I've read elsewhere, is that the reputation of this symphony has gone up over time along with the overall estimation of RVW as one of the most important composers of the 20th century. Perhaps some don't regard it as a proper symphony. I don't think that matters much anymore. (I recall something Thomas Pyncheon wrote about Mozart's lost Kazoo Concerto. ::) I might have to draw the line at that...)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on July 18, 2008, 02:17:42 PM
Quote from: drogulus on July 18, 2008, 01:57:34 PM
     The impression I get, based on the reaction here at GMG and from what little I've read elsewhere, is that the reputation of this symphony has gone up over time along with the overall estimation of RVW as one of the most important composers of the 20th century. Perhaps some don't regard it as a proper symphony. I don't think that matters much anymore. (I recall something Thomas Pyncheon wrote about Mozart's lost Kazoo Concerto. ::) I might have to draw the line at that...)

You are absolutely correct about both RVW's overall reputation and the Sinfonia Antartica.

Many members on here have pointed out repeatedly that the concept of a 'proper symphony' has become eroded in recent decades.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Wanderer on July 18, 2008, 11:47:42 PM
Quote from: Christo on July 15, 2008, 06:37:57 AM
(I'm leaving too, tonight, for the blessed isle of Crete, for two weeks. Planning to play my Kalomiris and Skalkottas collection there, and read Kazantzakis again - who was from Crete, there's even a Kazantzakis museum. Will also be having the Boult/EMI RVW box with me, otherwise this post would be completely OT  8))

Sinfonia antartica would certainly be out of place in Crete, although the Fifth would fit in nicely (while amid the ruins of Knossos, for instance).  :)
You probably won't see this until after you return, but have fun and we're awaiting your traveling impressions!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: rw1883 on July 23, 2008, 05:54:01 PM
These two sets are coming out next month from Music & Arts (The Art of Dmitri Mitropoulos):

http://www.musicandarts.com/0808_New_Class.html (http://www.musicandarts.com/0808_New_Class.html)

Besides all the other selections the first set has the Fantasia on a theme of Thomas Tallis and the second set has the VW 4th.  I have some of the other works on different labels, but the remastering is the "2008 digital restoration utilizing the revolutionary 'harmonic balancing" technique'".  I have the Furtwangler Bruckner set and the Toscanini Beethoven set that uses this same remastering technique and the results are excellent!  I've been wanting to hear the VW/Mitropoulos 4th so this might be the right time...

Paul
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SE pipesmoker etc on July 24, 2008, 01:34:20 AM
Quote from: rw1883 on July 23, 2008, 05:54:01 PM
These two sets are coming out next month from Music & Arts (The Art of Dmitri Mitropoulos):

http://www.musicandarts.com/0808_New_Class.html (http://www.musicandarts.com/0808_New_Class.html)

Besides all the other selections the first set has the Fantasia on a theme of Thomas Tallis and the second set has the VW 4th.  I have some of the other works on different labels, but the remastering is the "2008 digital restoration utilizing the revolutionary 'harmonic balancing" technique'".  I have the Furtwangler Bruckner set and the Toscanini Beethoven set that uses this same remastering technique and the results are excellent!  I've been wanting to hear the VW/Mitropoulos 4th so this might be the right time...

Paul

I have the old Sony CD of this (together with the brilliant, original version of the 6 with Stokowski (when is Hickox going to record that?)). It's quite an electrifying, haunting version (sharp brass) and good sound quality. The Fantasia is also very good, very moving forward, but a little too quick for me (3 min faster then most versions), I'm a Thomson man otherwise, I like it dreamy...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Renfield on July 24, 2008, 03:14:08 AM
Quote from: rw1883 on July 23, 2008, 05:54:01 PM
These two sets are coming out next month from Music & Arts (The Art of Dmitri Mitropoulos):

http://www.musicandarts.com/0808_New_Class.html (http://www.musicandarts.com/0808_New_Class.html)

Say what!?

I had no idea about this release; in general, not just concerning the Vaughan-Williams. Thank you! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on July 24, 2008, 05:24:44 PM

Is there a list somewhere of which M&A releases have the "harmonic balancing"? Couldn't find anything on their site....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 10, 2008, 09:14:50 PM
I think I am starting to "get" Vaughan Williams, thanks to Gibson's interpretation of symphony 5. Compared to Previn/LSO this has warmer sound, but is also more emotional. The first movement has a hushed expectancy, while the 3rd movement has a great yearning quality. Finale could have been taken with more vigour. Incidentally, I found this movement made me think of some sort of filmic finale, though the only one I could specify was the climax of Peter Weir's film Fearless, which I think has fugal accompaniment.

For both Gibson and Previn I thought the 2nd movement wasn't nearly presto as required, and the finale lacked true allegro. I suspect this is common performing practice, perhaps from a subconscious wish to make this another "Pastoral" symphony. Perhaps earlier performances are more stringent here?

I've now heard the 6th symphony conducted by Previn, Handley and Berglund. I'm not sure any of them get it quite right. I feel this work needs strongly felt underlying tension, almost (dare I say it?) Shostakovichian. I wonder if the Andrew Davis performance will meet my requirements...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 11, 2008, 05:10:30 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 10, 2008, 09:14:50 PM
I think I am starting to "get" Vaughan Williams, thanks to Gibson's interpretation of symphony 5. Compared to Previn/LSO this has warmer sound, but is also more emotional. The first movement has a hushed expectancy, while the 3rd movement has a great yearning quality. Finale could have been taken with more vigour. Incidentally, I found this movement made me think of some sort of filmic finale, though the only one I could specify was the climax of Peter Weir's film Fearless, which I think has fugal accompaniment.

For both Gibson and Previn I thought the 2nd movement wasn't nearly presto as required, and the finale lacked true allegro. I suspect this is common performing practice, perhaps from a subconscious wish to make this another "Pastoral" symphony. Perhaps earlier performances are more stringent here?

I've now heard the 6th symphony conducted by Previn, Handley and Berglund. I'm not sure any of them get it quite right. I feel this work needs strongly felt underlying tension, almost (dare I say it?) Shostakovichian. I wonder if the Andrew Davis performance will meet my requirements...

The Andrew Davis recording is very good; the best in his VW symphony cycle. Personally I like Boult's 1950s Decca recording of Symphony 6 best of all, but it is only available in a boxed set. I like the Berglund, Davis, Haitink, Abravanel and Barbirolli also.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 11, 2008, 04:31:30 PM
Very good new CD:

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=5860
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 11, 2008, 07:14:19 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 11, 2008, 05:10:30 AM
The Andrew Davis recording is very good; the best in his VW symphony cycle. Personally I like Boult's 1950s Decca recording of Symphony 6 best of all, but it is only available in a boxed set. I like the Berglund, Davis, Haitink, Abravanel and Barbirolli also.

I had no idea Barbirolli had recorded the 6th...

I am looking for energised, symphonic performances, and am contemplating the Boult/Decca and Haitink sets. Has anyone heard Thomson's set? I understand it was energetic but very reverberant.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 11, 2008, 11:41:08 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 11, 2008, 07:14:19 PM
I had no idea Barbirolli had recorded the 6th...

I am looking for energised, symphonic performances, and am contemplating the Boult/Decca and Haitink sets. Has anyone heard Thomson's set? I understand it was energetic but very reverberant. 

Once in a while, I confess my own preference for Thomson's Sixth in these columns. Yes, your description is apt, but at the same time, his slow, dramatic treatment of the opening, combined with great acoustics in the best Chandos recordings tradition, do it for me. Compared with Thomson, especially Davis' opening is much quicker and more lively, but for me there's a big loss in drama, too. At least we can all agree that Thomson's version differs from the other ones.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 11, 2008, 11:59:53 PM
Bryden Thomson was a very underrated conductor who sadly died too young.

I forgot to mention his VW No 6 in my list below. Christo is right; it is one of the best. Infact the BBC Music Mag "Top 1000 CDs Guide" lists it as their No 1 choice: "Command of the ardour,menace and baleful violence of the first three movements (Davis, Handley, Previn) doesn't guarantee ability to sustain the miasmic tension of the sphinx-like finale.....but Slatkin (like Kees Bakels on Naxos) seems to achieve it at the expense of the other movements' tensions....Thomson, despite the slightly cavernous Chandos sound, here delivers the most cogent performance of his cycle...and, there is a rapt frozen beauty about the finale." (Calum MacDonald). This is a fine performance and I feel that the church recording is an asset. I would point out that Andrew Achenbach described the performance as "soggy and washed-up" but later adopted a more sympathetic view!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2008, 12:04:21 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 11, 2008, 07:14:19 PM
I had no idea Barbirolli had recorded the 6th...

I am looking for energised, symphonic performances, and am contemplating the Boult/Decca and Haitink sets. Has anyone heard Thomson's set? I understand it was energetic but very reverberant.


Barbirolli's recording with the Bavarian RSO is/was on Orfeo, coupled bizarrely with Brahms's Second Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 14, 2008, 06:50:49 PM
(http://www.jimmythrasher.com/images/dot.png)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 15, 2008, 06:05:00 AM
Barbirolli's 6th is a fiery account, but because of the unfamiliarity of the orchestra with the composer's idiom (which, sadly, is all too obvious) it cannot be considered the benchmark recording. I would opt for either Andrew Davis OR Maurice Abravanel. Both are great.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 16, 2008, 02:24:58 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 15, 2008, 06:05:00 AM
Barbirolli's 6th is a fiery account, but because of the unfamiliarity of the orchestra with the composer's idiom (which, sadly, is all too obvious) it cannot be considered the benchmark recording. I would opt for either Andrew Davis OR Maurice Abravanel. Both are great.

Thomas

I agree in many ways. Nice to see another vote for Abravanel, as not everyone likes it (Andrew Achenbach in his Gramophone survey was dismissive of it). I think it's terrific (longest epilogue on CD...works well...usually this music is rushed or too loud). Also, great, unique coupling: Dona Nobis Pacem. They go well together I think.
Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 16, 2008, 07:29:30 PM
Quote from: sound67 on August 15, 2008, 06:05:00 AM
Barbirolli's 6th is a fiery account, but because of the unfamiliarity of the orchestra with the composer's idiom (which, sadly, is all too obvious) it cannot be considered the benchmark recording.

How is that obvious? Please give concrete examples. What characterizes VW's "idiom"?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 16, 2008, 11:54:56 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 16, 2008, 07:29:30 PM
How is that obvious? Please give concrete examples. What characterizes VW's "idiom"?

Quit stalking me, nincompoop. 

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 17, 2008, 12:05:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 12, 2008, 12:04:21 AM
Barbirolli's recording with the Bavarian RSO is/was on Orfeo, coupled bizarrely with Brahms's Second Symphony.

Has anyone heard the re-release of the Berglund-Bournemouth account of the 6th yet? How does it compare?

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2008, 03:05:57 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 17, 2008, 12:05:57 AM
Has anyone heard the re-release of the Berglund-Bournemouth account of the 6th yet? How does it compare?

Thomas

I did a review on the Amazon UK site (below). I think that it is one of the few successful performances on CD:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Nos-6/dp/B0018OAP2U/ref=cm_cr-mr-title
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 17, 2008, 01:46:16 PM
Quote from: sound67 on August 16, 2008, 11:54:56 PM
Quit stalking me, nincompoop. 

You aren't interesting enough to stalk, sorry.

That was actually a serious question though. Since I am very interested in playing and performance styles, in what is "idiomatic" performance of music, it would interest me to know what VW's "idiom" is and how the SOBR failed to realize it and how Barbirolli failed to school them in it. Unfortunately, this look once again like the typical sound67 tactic of hinting at some deep, "non-mainstream" insights few other people have, but then once again, there doesn't seem to be much behind the claim other than attitude. A pity. I would have liked to learn more about this subject.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 18, 2008, 12:36:56 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 17, 2008, 01:46:16 PM
You aren't interesting enough to stalk, sorry.

Sorry, but you are (hence the senseless comment in the film music thread. You're pathetic.  $:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 18, 2008, 12:46:34 AM
You are enormously easy to unsettle. Not surprising though since most of your material is just attitude, not substance. Again, a pity since I would have liked to learn more about VW's "idiom".
Can anybody else actually comment on that?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 18, 2008, 01:16:28 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 18, 2008, 12:46:34 AM
You are enormously easy to unsettle.

You are right. People with narrow fields of interests and narrow minds such as yourself are a lot less easy to unsettle.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Hector on August 18, 2008, 05:53:47 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 18, 2008, 12:46:34 AM
You are enormously easy to unsettle. Not surprising though since most of your material is just attitude, not substance. Again, a pity since I would have liked to learn more about VW's "idiom".
Can anybody else actually comment on that?

Since when have you cared about English music or its performance practice?

Thomas has a point.

Bugger off to your German domain and Sinopoli.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 18, 2008, 07:56:33 AM
Quote from: Hector on August 18, 2008, 05:53:47 AM
Since when have you cared about English music or its performance practice?

Thomas has a point.

What business of yours is it what interests me and what not? Why do you meddle here? Do you have something to add or do you just want to provoke? What is his point? That he makes claims of knowledge that he doesn't have? Yes, that is apparently true. He does that all the time.

All this smoke blowing instead of just answering the question?

Well, of course, we know, there is no answer - it is already totally obvious that that was just one of sound67's hollow phrases. When someone says something vague but hinting at specialized knowledge like "they don't understand VW's idiom", then I find that interesting and want to know more about that.

So, since sound67 can not answer the question, can anybody else explain, is there a specific recognizeable VW "idiom", and what consists "idiomatic" playing of his music?

Oh, and a question to both Hector and sound67: have you ever played music by VW? I don't mean in the CD player, I mean as musicians? What specific insights into his musical "idiom" did you gain from that practical playing experience that Barbirolli was not able to communicate to the SOBR in that recording?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on August 18, 2008, 08:10:09 AM
I don't know if this is what others are talking about, but I tend to associate 20th century English music with a certain string sound, which might be described as somewhat maudlin or sentimental, perhaps typified by this excellent release:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/8c/f8/d4b49833e7a0a084ae6e1110.L.jpg)

Neville Marriner and his ASMF may be another example.  I seem to recall reading claims that it has something to do with bowing with high speed but light pressure, accompanied by a generous vibrato.  In Barbirolli recordings, the grunting, moaning, or humming along of the conductor is an essential part. 

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on August 18, 2008, 08:15:45 AM
Quote from: scarpia on August 18, 2008, 08:10:09 AM
In Barbirolli recordings, the grunting, moaning, or humming along of the conductor is an essential part. 

So that is what foreign RVW performances have been lacking ;D Colin Davis is another master of this dicipline...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on August 18, 2008, 09:00:24 AM
Quote from: Lethe on August 18, 2008, 08:15:45 AM
So that is what foreign RVW performances have been lacking ;D Colin Davis is another master of this dicipline...

Yes, that is the essence of the Brittish idiom, podium grunting.  Can you imagine Karajan grunting? 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on August 18, 2008, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 18, 2008, 07:56:33 AM
So, since sound67 can not answer the question, can anybody else explain, is there a specific recognizeable VW "idiom", and what consists "idiomatic" playing of his music?
It's very, very Antarctican.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 18, 2008, 02:33:27 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 18, 2008, 07:56:33 AM


Well, of course, we know, there is no answer - it is already totally obvious that that was just one of sound67's hollow phrases. When someone says something vague but hinting at specialized knowledge like "they don't understand VW's idiom", then I find that interesting and want to know more about that.

So, since sound67 can not answer the question, can anybody else explain, is there a specific recognizeable VW "idiom", and what consists "idiomatic" playing of his music?


      It's mostly just a question of tradition and how interpretations are passed down, and from the standpoint of the listener you get the impression that certain orchestras and conductors have that measure of experience that you don't get elsewhere. It's not (at least to my knowledge) a matter of mistakes so much as familiarity. I hear it with American and British music that doesn't get played often outside of the home countries. There may be, in addition, objective differences that are specific to how musicians play, but that would not have to be the case. If it sounds idiomatic in some way that would be enough. Special knowledge in listening amounts to no more than that. I don't think my American identity gives me any edge with Copland or Harris, except to the extent that I like some of their music and have listened to many recordings and a few performances. That isn't very specialized knowledge, it's just experience that many others don't have.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on August 18, 2008, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 18, 2008, 02:33:27 PM
      It's mostly just a question of tradition and how interpretations are passed down, and from the standpoint of the listener you get the impression that certain orchestras and conductors have that measure of experience that you don't get elsewhere. It's not (at least to my knowledge) a matter of mistakes so much as familiarity. I hear it with American and British music that doesn't get played often outside of the home countries. There may be, in addition, objective differences that are specific to how musicians play, but that would not have to be the case. If it sounds idiomatic in some way that would be enough. Special knowledge in listening amounts to no more than that. I don't think my American identity gives me any edge with Copland or Harris, except to the extent that I like some of their music and have listened to many recordings and a few performances. That isn't very specialized knowledge, it's just experience that many others don't have.

I hate to turn into M forever here, but could you formulate a more vague set of truisms than that?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 18, 2008, 07:17:21 PM

Thanks to scarpia and drogulus for getting us back on topic. Could we please avoid tedious flaming in future?

Re the English (British?) idiom, it's honestly not something I've thought about. So few non-Brit orchestras have tackled the repertoire that general comparisons may not be possible. Brit orchestras can do a pretty good impersonation of German or Russian, but tend to need a native conductor to bring that out. As drogulus said, familiarity also has a lot to do with it, and that works both ways - the CPO are surely very familar with Dvorak, but then perhaps their way with the music has become so ingrained that we think it's THE way.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 18, 2008, 10:52:19 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 18, 2008, 07:17:21 PM
Thanks to scarpia and drogulus for getting us back on topic. Could we please avoid tedious flaming in future?

Yes, indeed. Thanks. I think my question was a valid one. We now know sound67 doesn't want to (read: have to) say anything about that, but I think we have the basis for a new branch of the discussion now.

drogulus: you are indeed being very vague here. You are defining what could in general be described as "idiomatic", but in very general terms. We want to find out what that could be in this particular music.

I have a few more thoughts myself, but M has to go to bed now! Oyasumi.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 19, 2008, 07:37:50 AM
I hate to interrupt the heart-warming banter going on here but did anyone else hear the great performance of VW's Piano Concerto from the Proms? Sadly I couldn't make it to the concert but I thoroghly enjoyed the performance on the radio today. Such an important and underrated work. I like it more and more.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 19, 2008, 12:42:02 PM
Quote from: scarpia on August 18, 2008, 03:02:26 PM
I hate to turn into M forever here, but could you formulate a more vague set of truisms than that?


     No, I don't think I could. Does it need to be more vague? It certainly doesn't need to be more specific. From the standpoint of a performing musician there are perhaps nonvague differences in the way phrasing is done. For the listener it's mostly a matter of the music sounding like the player is aware of a performance tradition. Recently I attended a performance of Vaughan Williams (Serenade to Music) where the singers were accompanied by a piano instead of orchestra. The pianist played as though she had never encountered this music before, and the notes were delivered in what sounded like a mechanical fashion. Was this complete unfamiliarity? Was it poor musicianship, or was it merely unidiomatic? I don't know, nor do I have any idea how I could tell just by listening.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on August 19, 2008, 02:52:55 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 19, 2008, 12:42:02 PM
     No, I don't think I could. Does it need to be more vague? It certainly doesn't need to be more specific. From the standpoint of a performing musician there are perhaps nonvague differences in the way phrasing is done. For the listener it's mostly a matter of the music sounding like the player is aware of a performance tradition. Recently I attended a performance of Vaughan Williams (Serenade to Music) where the singers were accompanied by a piano instead of orchestra. The pianist played as though she had never encountered this music before, and the notes were delivered in what sounded like a mechanical fashion. Was this complete unfamiliarity? Was it poor musicianship, or was it merely unidiomatic? I don't know, nor do I have any idea how I could tell just by listening.

No, it could scarcely have been more vague and I think it needs to be more specific.  The question was "what constitutes an idiomatic Vaughan Williams performance?"  The question wasn't "what constitutes an idiomatic performance in general?"  I think everyone knows that an idiomatic performance is by definition one that respects performance traditions.  The question was, what distinctive performance traditions are associated with Vaughan Williams.  The answer to that question has some chance of being interesting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 19, 2008, 03:40:05 PM
Quote from: scarpia on August 19, 2008, 02:52:55 PM
The question was, what distinctive performance traditions are associated with Vaughan Williams.  The answer to that question has some chance of being interesting.


     Could you be a little less vague? What do you mean by the vague phrase "performance tradition"? If you look again at my answer you'll see that I'm casting doubt on the meaning of this term "idiomatic". I think it's a catchall for what works*. I'm embarrassed to say I've used the term in posts occasionally, so I'll just say it's likely that other people use it the way I do. If a precise meaning is to be had I'll be glad to learn it.

     So far no one has offered anything specific about Vaughan Williams. I'd like to know, for example, just what it is that makes the Haitink recording of Sinfonia Antartica "unidiomatic" but nevertheless a convincing reading, and in fact one of the most well regarded among the many recordings available. The answer might indeed be interesting, but I'm willing to bet it will be uninformative, because "idiom" isn't a real distinction for Vaughan Williams. Perhaps it is for......Bruckner. We'll see if anyone is willing to commit themselves on this. So, I'll stand pat and wait for the answer man, who has been delayed for some reason.

     *I should have said "what has worked".
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 20, 2008, 06:07:50 PM

Maybe "idiomatic" is code for "sounds like Boult"  :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 21, 2008, 12:39:20 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 20, 2008, 06:07:50 PM
Maybe "idiomatic" is code for "sounds like Boult"  :P

An exaggeration with a kernel of truth.

English music has 'traveled' too little. Ideas of what constitutes 'an idiomatic performance' can only really come about through comparison. If, say, German, French, Dutch orchestras and conductors had taken up RVW, then we could judge Boult's and others' approaches better, especially if those non-British performances were very different but just as satisfying. It would have sharpened our ideas of what RVW's music is and is capable of. Now we are simply used to the British way of playing him. (I leave it to others to explain the details to M.) It is as if you could listen to Sibelius played only by Finnish orchestras. 'Authentic', perhaps. But I am glad Karajan did the Fourth. (Although I have my problems with Haitink in RVW!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 01:05:51 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 21, 2008, 12:39:20 AMEnglish music has 'traveled' too little. Ideas of what constitutes 'an idiomatic performance' can only really come about through comparison. If, say, German, French, Dutch orchestras and conductors had taken up RVW, then we could judge Boult's and others' approaches better, especially if those non-British performances were very different but just as satisfying

When all is said and done though, I think "idiomatic" simply boils down to "good". Many German orchestras have a darker string sound than e.g. the BBC orchestras - which would affect the result even if they play the music along the same interpretive parameters. Would that mean it'd be less "idiomatic"? Was Vaughan Williams' music composed with the sound of British orchestras (often referred to as brass bands with string attached) in mind? I don't think so.

Sadly, as you pointed out, a true comparison is not possible because there are so few recordings of RVW by German, or other central European orchestras. And the ones there are are let down by untidy ensemble (as the Bavarian RSO's of the 6th, especially in the brass - no, m-forever, I can't be more specific, it's tugged away in a packing case) or were done by less distinguished orchestras and conductors (such as the RVW 5th from Frankfurt/Oder).

Thomas 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 21, 2008, 04:49:35 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 01:05:51 AM
When all is said and done though, I think "idiomatic" simply boils down to "good". Many German orchestras have a darker string sound than e.g. the BBC orchestras - which would affect the result even if they play the music along the same interpretive parameters. Would that mean it'd be less "idiomatic"? Was Vaughan Williams' music composed with the sound of British orchestras (often referred to as brass bands with string attached) in mind? I don't think so.

Sadly, as you pointed out, a true comparison is not possible because there are so few recordings of RVW by German, or other central European orchestras. And the ones there are are let down by untidy ensemble (as the Bavarian RSO's of the 6th, especially in the brass - no, m-forever, I can't be more specific, it's tugged away in a packing case) or were done by less distinguished orchestras and conductors (such as the RVW 5th from Frankfurt/Oder).

Thomas 

In view of what you say, I wonder what this CD is like:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 21, 2008, 05:28:27 AM
Quote from: Lethe on August 18, 2008, 08:15:45 AM
So that is what foreign RVW performances have been lacking ;D Colin Davis is another master of this dicipline...

Speaking of Sir Colin, does anyone know why he's never recorded any of the RVW symphonies? Has he performed them in concert? The only RVW work I can think of that he has recorded is The Lark Ascending with Hilary Hahn. Seems odd when you think of his status as a British conductor.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 21, 2008, 06:00:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 21, 2008, 05:28:27 AM
Speaking of Sir Colin, does anyone know why he's never recorded any of the RVW symphonies?
Uhh, maybe he doesn't like them? Just because he is British doesn't mean he is obliged to perform works by British composers. There are American conductors who wouldn't touch American music with the proverbial 10 foot pole so this phenomenon is not limited to Sir Colin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 21, 2008, 06:09:00 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 21, 2008, 06:00:14 AM
Uhh, maybe he doesn't like them?

Uh, ya think?  ;D  I was looking for a more specific reason; hoping someone might have read or heard him discussing Vaughan Williams.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 21, 2008, 06:12:25 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 21, 2008, 06:00:14 AM
Uhh, maybe he doesn't like them? Just because he is British doesn't mean he is obliged to perform works by British composers. There are American conductors who wouldn't touch American music with the proverbial 10 foot pole so this phenomenon is not limited to Sir Colin.

You probably didn't mean it, but the wording here comes close to confusing 'Vaughan Williams' with 'British music'. Colin Davis, one of the greatest exponents of e.g. Tippett, would disagree strongly that he 'wouldn't touch British music with a 10 foot pole'.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 06:14:30 AM
A while ago I listened to Colin Davis conducting RVW's 4th on the radio, with the Bavarian RSO.

You can hear parts of the symphony in this audio podcast on Bayern radio (about 40% into the sound file):
http://www.br-online.de/bayern4klassik/galleria/audio-williams-sinfonie-ID1218876987968.xml

Davis also discusses the music - in German!

Also: http://www.newberkshire.com/7bso-boston-symphony-colin-davis.php

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 21, 2008, 06:21:21 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 06:14:30 AM
A while ago I listened to Colin Davis conducting RVW's 4th on the radio, with the Bavarian RSO.

You can hear parts of it in this audio podcast on Bayern radio (about 40% into the sound file):
http://www.br-online.de/bayern4klassik/galleria/audio-williams-sinfonie-ID1218876987968.xml

Also: http://www.newberkshire.com/7bso-boston-symphony-colin-davis.php

Thomas


Thanks, Thomas

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 21, 2008, 06:22:45 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 21, 2008, 06:12:25 AM
You probably didn't mean it, but the wording here comes close to confusing 'Vaughan Williams' with 'British music'. Colin Davis, one of the greatest exponents of e.g. Tippett, would disagree strongly that he 'wouldn't touch British music with a 10 foot pole'.  :)
I am not sure if I would cast Sir Colin as a great exponent of British music in general. Yes he did record Britten, Elgar, Holst, and a little a bit of Walton (in addition to Tippett that you mentioned). But these composers are probably as "cosmopolitan" as they come. They are British but they have quite a bit of international stature. Can you think of a British composer whose music would not be heard if it wasn't for Sir Colin? This is not a knock on Sir Colin, his niche really wasn't as an exponent of British music in general.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 21, 2008, 06:53:26 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 21, 2008, 06:22:45 AM
I am not sure if I would cast Sir Colin as a great exponent of British music in general. Yes he did record Britten, Elgar, Holst, and a little a bit of Walton (in addition to Tippett that you mentioned). But these composers are probably as "cosmopolitan" as they come. They are British but they have quite a bit of international stature. Can you think of a British composer whose music would not be heard if it wasn't for Sir Colin? This is not a knock on Sir Colin, his niche really wasn't as an exponent of British music in general.

Well, yes, back to Tippett - Davis was the foremost recording conductor of his music from the mid 60s onwards, the operas (his most important works, probably) above all; that is, from the time that Tippett began to carve out a reputation beyond the shores of Britain. I have a feeling the two facts are not unrelated. The premieres of most of Tippett's major orchestral works from the Concerto for Orchestra right up to The Rose Lake, and of his 3rd and 4th operas, were entrusted to Davis. Somewhere or other I have quotations from Tippett himself full of gratitude for the work Davis did on his behalf, which I feel was probably instrumental in turning the composer from a 'British' figure into one of international stature.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 21, 2008, 07:03:30 AM
I remember Tippett's 3rd being performed at the Concertgebouw. It was in 1970s and the conductor was, iirc, Colin Davis. I didn't attend (I was more into Mahler and Wagner at the time).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on August 21, 2008, 07:50:15 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 06:14:30 AM
A while ago I listened to Colin Davis conducting RVW's 4th on the radio, with the Bavarian RSO.

I quite liked his 6th with the same orchestra, which was/is on Operashare. It didn't gain any positive reaction when I reposted it on the forum at the time. I think one person positively hated the performance :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on August 21, 2008, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 21, 2008, 06:53:26 AM
Well, yes, back to Tippett - Davis was the foremost recording conductor of his music from the mid 60s onwards, the operas (his most important works, probably) above all; that is, from the time that Tippett began to carve out a reputation beyond the shores of Britain. I have a feeling the two facts are not unrelated. The premieres of most of Tippett's major orchestral works from the Concerto for Orchestra right up to The Rose Lake, and of his 3rd and 4th operas, were entrusted to Davis. Somewhere or other I have quotations from Tippett himself full of gratitude for the work Davis did on his behalf, which I feel was probably instrumental in turning the composer from a 'British' figure into one of international stature.

This is definitely true. Tippett was writing these scores that were monstrously difficult and awkward for the players. He had a reputation as someone with a lot of ideas that he didn't know how to express. Colin Davis' recordings showed how gorgeous the music could really sound when it was performed properly. I think his recordings of The Midsummer Marriage and the Third Symphony in particular turned a lot of heads. From the illustrations in the accompanying booklet, it seems apparent that the Covent Garden production of the Midsummer Marriage which Davis recorded really captured the atmosphere of the work, and allowed it to come off on stage in a way that counteracted his reputation for bad librettos (a flaw that unfortunately couldn't be disguised in his later operas).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 21, 2008, 10:40:16 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on August 21, 2008, 10:25:26 AM
...in a way that counteracted [Tippett's] reputation for bad librettos (a flaw that unfortunately couldn't be disguised in his later operas).

I think I'm the only person on earth who likes Tippett's libretti! At least, I feel they are of a piece with his personality and above all with his music - the same peculiar blend of awkwardness and courageousness which, to my mind, only increases the communicative human power of the whole. BTW, humour my posting probably Tippett's most famous non-libretto words, a passage whose oft-quoted closing words encapsulate Tippett's music perfectly:

Quote from: TippettThis tradition is to create images from the depths of the imagination and to give them form whether visual, intellectual or musical. For it is only through images that the inner world communicates at all. Images of vigour for a decadent period, images of calm for one too violent. Images of reconciliation for the worlds torn by division. And in an age of mediocrity and shattered dreams, images of abounding, generous, exuberant beauty.

Sorry to derail things; back to VW (though the VW-Tippett link is an interesting one too....)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 21, 2008, 06:36:14 PM
Quote from: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 06:14:30 AM
A while ago I listened to Colin Davis conducting RVW's 4th on the radio, with the Bavarian RSO.

You can hear parts of the symphony in this audio podcast on Bayern radio (about 40% into the sound file):
http://www.br-online.de/bayern4klassik/galleria/audio-williams-sinfonie-ID1218876987968.xml

Davis also discusses the music - in German!

Also: http://www.newberkshire.com/7bso-boston-symphony-colin-davis.php

Thomas

I should warn the unwary that this last link leads to a concert review by a certain "Karl Henning".  $:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on August 22, 2008, 03:59:54 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 21, 2008, 10:40:16 AM
I think I'm the only person on earth who likes Tippett's libretti! At least, I feel they are of a piece with his personality and above all with his music - the same peculiar blend of awkwardness and courageousness which, to my mind, only increases the communicative human power of the whole. BTW, humour my posting probably Tippett's most famous non-libretto words, a passage whose oft-quoted closing words encapsulate Tippett's music perfectly:

Sorry to derail things; back to VW (though the VW-Tippett link is an interesting one too....)

No no, that's fine! I do like Tippett's writing. Symphony nr 3 has a moving text and "Moving into Aquarius" (Paladin books 1974) is a great collection of essays and poems : "I am a composer .That is someone who imagines sound, creating music from the inner world of the imagination."

But back to RVW now!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on August 22, 2008, 05:31:16 AM
Indeed, RVW time :D

Did he write any substantial (and good) instrumental/chamber music beyond the two SQs and phantasy quintet? I recall having heard the Hyperion/Nash Ensemble "early chamber music" twofer at some point, but it didn't make much of an impact.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 05:45:59 AM
There is a violin sonata that's quite intriguing:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2007/Nov07/English_sonatas_pcl2105.jpg)
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2007/Nov07/English_sonatas_pcl2105.htm

It was written in 1954, it's among the "harsher" pieces in his oeuvre, no unlike parts of the 4th and 6th symphonies.

He wrote only a few piano pieces, none of them of any consequence. His "Six Studies in English Folk Song" are a popular work though. They're available in various guises (for cello, viola, clarinet etc.)

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 22, 2008, 06:06:47 AM
I have Menuhin's recording of the Sonata, Thos; though I have not listened to it yet . . . fact is, I bought the disc for the Elgar Sonata.

But it's time I listened to the Vaughan Williams, of course.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on August 22, 2008, 06:11:36 AM
Thomas - thanks, that sonata sounds unmissable :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 23, 2008, 01:53:33 AM
I agree with Thomas. The late, craggy Violin Sonata is my favourite piece of VW chamber music. My favourite recording is with the Music Group of London (including the late Hugh Bean, whose "Lark Ascending" with Boult is the best I know.) There is also the chamber version of the vocal "On Wenlock Edge, a wonderful work (although I prefer the version for full orchestra).

The CD below "The Lake in the Mountains", is an excellent collection of VW chamber works, including a fine performance of the Violin Sonata:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Chamber-Music/dp/B00006644H/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1219484951&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 23, 2008, 02:52:17 AM
Very true, and the string quartet performance is also very good. I have yet to see a truly bland, or poor, performance from the Nash Ensemble. Their Bliss Chamber Works CD is one of my top ten CDs ever!

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/66137.jpg)

I put the "portrait" twofer (was: Cala) forward to sneak in some even lesser-known British repertoire to annoy m forever.  ;D

Though Stanzeleit's performance isn't bad either.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on August 23, 2008, 04:04:06 AM
I hesitate to reopen the discussion of 'idiomatic/unidiomatic' performances of VW's music. I have been on holiday in Norway and Sweden-in fact I still am :) :)
Having accessed the forum from a friend's house in Stockholm however I note that there is a reference to the point I made some time ago about Haitink's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica as unidiomatic but deeply impressive and convincing.

What did I mean by that? I must admit that it was the sort of remark which needed greater thought and consideration. Many of the points made subsequently impress me as very valid. There is a 'performing tradition' in VW which has developed over the decades since the music was first performed. As a consequence of the fact that first and following performances were given by British orchestras and that conductors like Boult and Barbirolli were particularly associated with these performances we do-naturally-think of such a 'performing tradition' as specifically British. A conductor like Vernon Handley is frequently seen as Boult's conducting heir-yet Handley's interpretations are not slavish imitations of those by Sir Adrian.

The reality that few non-British orchestras or conductors performed VW meant that it was extremely difficult to compare or contrast these interpretations with possible alternatives. We talk about conductors brought up in the central European traditions of Bruckner and Mahler-composers whose music was relatively little heard in Britain until later in the 20th century.

Haitink is such a conductor. Some of us then assume that he can bring a different perspective to the interpretation of VW.
Yet, of course, Haitink recorded his VW cycle with the London Philharmonic-the orchestra most particularly associated with Boult's performances and recordings on early LP. The Haitink cycle has been criticised in some quarters. Some people-including myself- admire the performance of the Sinfonia Antartica because it appears to invest that work with a majesty and grandeur which elevates a piece which can seem incidental to the VW symphonic canon into a more substantial and genuinely 'symphonic' work. Is this then just a 'better' performance? Perhaps so. Is it 'unidiomatic'? Probably not. Is Haitink's interpretation of the 'London Symphony' unidiomatic? Well, it is 'different'.

I apologise for not being able to be more 'specific' or necessarily helpful. Perhaps critics (and some of us) are just being a bit lazy in using words like 'unidiomatic' without more clearly defining what we mean by that :)

Anyway...I am returning  to my holiday for another few days ;D :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 23, 2008, 04:13:24 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 23, 2008, 04:04:06 AMThe Haitink cycle has been criticised in some quarters. Some people-including myself- admire the performance of the Sinfonia Antartica because it appears to invest that work with a majesty and grandeur which elevates a piece which can seem incidental to the VW symphonic canon into a more substantial and genuinely 'symphonic' work. Is this then just a 'better' performance? Perhaps so. Is it 'unidiomatic'? Probably not. Is Haitink's interpretation of the 'London Symphony' unidiomatic? Well, it is 'different'.

I have mixed feelings about the Haitink cycle, too. I often use the term "Brucknerian" to describe the specific nature of those recordings, by which I mean a majesty and an emphasis on line, not on colour (that's why I consider his RVW 8th a complete failure, it just sounds "grey" to me). The orchestra may have an RVW tradition, but I don't think there are many players left from the days of Boult.

QuoteI apologise for not being able to be more 'specific' or necessarily helpful. Perhaps critics (and some of us) are just being a bit lazy in using words like 'unidiomatic' without more clearly defining what we mean by that :)

Guilty. It just comes (too) naturally, doesn't it? I mean, if all the details are in the scores, why should a musician in Timbuktu not be able to play it the same way a player in London does? If he's of the same caliber (ok, it might be difficult to find enough of those in Timbuktu, so let's say, Hong Kong) and his instrument is, too (mich may be even more diificult) . Tratditions of how to play certain instruments (that Czech timbre in horn playing, how to describe it?) can alter the result, but if e.g. a German orchestra play under Norrington, couldn't he specifically instruct people to play in a manner he considers "British"?  :-X

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on August 23, 2008, 06:25:42 AM
Thanks for the violin sonata recommendation. I don't know this work at all, and I really like the craggy RVW, so this sounds like a must.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on August 23, 2008, 07:19:20 AM
It really is superb - stands up very well next to the Elgar sonata. I prefer RVW's piano writing to that one, actually. The overall feel to the work is perhaps less nostalgic than Elgar's, but still surprisingly affecting. It is lengthy (thank God) and rather than going down the cheerful route of works such as the phantasy quintet, this is rather more ruminative and slightly beguiling in mood. The violinist's role is certainly less overtly folksy than in the Lark Ascending, and digging more into the music at times rather than serenely passing by. This is going to provide many rewarding relistens, I am sure.

The Nash disc is very strong, both in playing and recording (the 2nd SQ has just begun now and has grabbed me in a way that I can't recall the acclaimed and also great Naxos disc having done before). I am tempted to buy the English violin sonatas twofer to hear some of works by other composers (I haven't heard a note by Dunhill or Fricker)...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 24, 2008, 06:09:55 AM
Oh, just stumbled across André Previns Sinfonia Antarctica with the LSO from the box set, what do you think about this one?

(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/antarctica_previn.jpg)

For those who don't know this one, I've got a snippet for you:

[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/rvw7-1.mp3[/mp3]

I must say it seems :-*:-*:-* I love this :-*:-*:-* celibidachesque interpretation much more than the one I preferred before (Bakels on Naxos). It's much slower and therefore more exiting I think. The speed (e.g. the first Andante is 11 minutes) goes well with this piece. Maybe it's just that the visionary Previn wanted to slow down the pole melting in 1967 already.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 24, 2008, 07:16:06 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 23, 2008, 04:04:06 AM
I hesitate to reopen the discussion of 'idiomatic/unidiomatic' performances of VW's music. I have been on holiday in Norway and Sweden-in fact I still am :) :)
Having accessed the forum from a friend's house in Stockholm however I note that there is a reference to the point I made some time ago about Haitink's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica as unidiomatic but deeply impressive and convincing.

What did I mean by that? I must admit that it was the sort of remark which needed greater thought and consideration. Many of the points made subsequently impress me as very valid. There is a 'performing tradition' in VW which has developed over the decades since the music was first performed. As a consequence of the fact that first and following performances were given by British orchestras and that conductors like Boult and Barbirolli were particularly associated with these performances we do-naturally-think of such a 'performing tradition' as specifically British. A conductor like Vernon Handley is frequently seen as Boult's conducting heir-yet Handley's interpretations are not slavish imitations of those by Sir Adrian.

The reality that few non-British orchestras or conductors performed VW meant that it was extremely difficult to compare or contrast these interpretations with possible alternatives. We talk about conductors brought up in the central European traditions of Bruckner and Mahler-composers whose music was relatively little heard in Britain until later in the 20th century.

Haitink is such a conductor. Some of us then assume that he can bring a different perspective to the interpretation of VW.
Yet, of course, Haitink recorded his VW cycle with the London Philharmonic-the orchestra most particularly associated with Boult's performances and recordings on early LP. The Haitink cycle has been criticised in some quarters. Some people-including myself- admire the performance of the Sinfonia Antartica because it appears to invest that work with a majesty and grandeur which elevates a piece which can seem incidental to the VW symphonic canon into a more substantial and genuinely 'symphonic' work. Is this then just a 'better' performance? Perhaps so. Is it 'unidiomatic'? Probably not. Is Haitink's interpretation of the 'London Symphony' unidiomatic? Well, it is 'different'.

I apologise for not being able to be more 'specific' or necessarily helpful. Perhaps critics (and some of us) are just being a bit lazy in using words like 'unidiomatic' without more clearly defining what we mean by that :)

Anyway...I am returning  to my holiday for another few days ;D :)

    I agree with you entirely. :(

   
Quote from: Wurstwasser on August 24, 2008, 06:09:55 AM
Oh, just stumbled across André Previns Sinfonia Antarctica with the LSO from the box set, what do you think about this one?

(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/antarctica_previn.jpg)

For those who don't know this one, I've got a snippet for you:

[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/rvw7-1.mp3[/mp3]

I must say it seems :-*:-*:-* I love this :-*:-*:-* celibidachesque interpretation much more than the one I preferred before (Bakels on Naxos). It's much slower and therefore more exiting I think. The speed (e.g. the first Andante is 11 minutes) goes well with this piece. Maybe it's just that the visionary Previn wanted to slow down the pole melting in 1967 already.

    I've had this on the Pod recently and I'm trying to adjust to the slow first movement. On the whole I think Previn is a convincing interpreter but he's not my first choice in any of the symphonies, though I had the LP of the 5th and it was a serious contender, or so I thought at the time (decades ago).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 24, 2008, 02:02:38 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 23, 2008, 04:04:06 AM
I hesitate to reopen the discussion of 'idiomatic/unidiomatic' performances of VW's music. I have been on holiday in Norway and Sweden-in fact I still am :) :)
Having accessed the forum from a friend's house in Stockholm however I note that there is a reference to the point I made some time ago about Haitink's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica as unidiomatic but deeply impressive and convincing.

What did I mean by that? I must admit that it was the sort of remark which needed greater thought and consideration. Many of the points made subsequently impress me as very valid. There is a 'performing tradition' in VW which has developed over the decades since the music was first performed. As a consequence of the fact that first and following performances were given by British orchestras and that conductors like Boult and Barbirolli were particularly associated with these performances we do-naturally-think of such a 'performing tradition' as specifically British. A conductor like Vernon Handley is frequently seen as Boult's conducting heir-yet Handley's interpretations are not slavish imitations of those by Sir Adrian.

The reality that few non-British orchestras or conductors performed VW meant that it was extremely difficult to compare or contrast these interpretations with possible alternatives. We talk about conductors brought up in the central European traditions of Bruckner and Mahler-composers whose music was relatively little heard in Britain until later in the 20th century.

Haitink is such a conductor. Some of us then assume that he can bring a different perspective to the interpretation of VW.
Yet, of course, Haitink recorded his VW cycle with the London Philharmonic-the orchestra most particularly associated with Boult's performances and recordings on early LP. The Haitink cycle has been criticised in some quarters. Some people-including myself- admire the performance of the Sinfonia Antartica because it appears to invest that work with a majesty and grandeur which elevates a piece which can seem incidental to the VW symphonic canon into a more substantial and genuinely 'symphonic' work. Is this then just a 'better' performance? Perhaps so. Is it 'unidiomatic'? Probably not. Is Haitink's interpretation of the 'London Symphony' unidiomatic? Well, it is 'different'.

I apologise for not being able to be more 'specific' or necessarily helpful. Perhaps critics (and some of us) are just being a bit lazy in using words like 'unidiomatic' without more clearly defining what we mean by that :)

Anyway...I am returning  to my holiday for another few days ;D :)

Thanks for this contribution. You don't have to "apologize" for re-opening the discussion - it was never really "opened" since no one so far has been able to say what an "idiomatic" performance of RVW's music actually is. You and some other posters made some valid points regarding how "authentic" or "idiomatic" performing traditions can come into life and are handed down to the next generations of performers, and all that is very true in general, but none of that answers the question what characterizes an "idiomatic" performance of this music - or not.

BTW, did you go to the Vasa museum in Stockholm? Extremely impressive.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on August 24, 2008, 02:27:14 PM
No, I did not go to the Vasa Museum on this trip but I have been there at least three times in the past with different friends.
It is-as you say-extremely impressive :) Sad that such a magnificent ship should sink on its maiden voyage before it even got out of the harbour :( A shorter maiden voyage than that of the 'Titanic'!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 24, 2008, 02:28:46 PM
Well, it looks magnificent, but the design/engineering wasn't so magnificent  $:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on August 24, 2008, 03:40:33 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 24, 2008, 02:28:46 PM
Well, it looks magnificent, but the design/engineering wasn't so magnificent  $:)

Indeed :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 24, 2008, 08:29:30 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 24, 2008, 07:16:06 AM
I've had this on the Pod recently and I'm trying to adjust to the slow first movement. On the whole I think Previn is a convincing interpreter but he's not my first choice in any of the symphonies, though I had the LP of the 5th and it was a serious contender, or so I thought at the time (decades ago).

I've only heard Bakels and Previn thus far. I like Previn's performance but feel he could have gone further - if you're going to go slow, this music could stand to be even slower and grander.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 24, 2008, 11:59:38 PM
Quote from: sound67 on August 23, 2008, 02:52:17 AM
Very true, and the string quartet performance is also very good. I have yet to see a truly bland, or poor, performance from the Nash Ensemble. Their Bliss Chamber Works CD is one of my top ten CDs ever!

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/66137.jpg)

I put the "portrait" twofer (was: Cala) forward to sneak in some even lesser-known British repertoire to annoy m forever.  ;D

Though Stanzeleit's performance isn't bad either.

Thomas

OT I know but just to say that the Bliss Oboe Quintet is one of my very favourite pieces of chamber music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 25, 2008, 12:02:37 AM
Quote from: edward on August 23, 2008, 06:25:42 AM
Thanks for the violin sonata recommendation. I don't know this work at all, and I really like the craggy RVW, so this sounds like a must.

More "craggy VW" for you:

Fantasia on the Old 104th for Piano and Orchestra

Piano Concerto

Symphony 9

Less craggy perhaps, but my favourite VW unknown work is the late cantata "Epithalamion", a beautiful score.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on August 25, 2008, 06:06:09 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 24, 2008, 02:02:38 PM
Thanks for this contribution. You don't have to "apologize" for re-opening the discussion - it was never really "opened" since no one so far has been able to say what an "idiomatic" performance of RVW's music actually is. You and some other posters made some valid points regarding how "authentic" or "idiomatic" performing traditions can come into life and are handed down to the next generations of performers, and all that is very true in general, but none of that answers the question what characterizes an "idiomatic" performance of this music - or not.

BTW, did you go to the Vasa museum in Stockholm? Extremely impressive.
I don't think anyone has a good answer without any scores, M.....
to be able to say you "know" a composer's idiom, i think, definitely requires several scores and lots of time- so probably no one who regularly posts on this thread could say anything worthwhile (unless i'm proven wrong)  ;).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on August 25, 2008, 09:27:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 25, 2008, 12:02:37 AM
Piano Concerto

Symphony 9
Both amongst my favourite RVW works, particularly the concerto. I'll have to take a look at the other two you mentioned.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 25, 2008, 04:19:39 PM
50th Anniversary of Vaughan Williams's death today as he died in the early hours of 26th August 1958, seven hours before Adrian Boult and the LPO recorded his 9th Symphony (being performed in an all VW concert at the Proms in London tonight). Sadly I wont be there as I have to take my daughter to catch the Harwich-Hook-of-Holland ferry, but I'll listen on the radio and at midnight I played the 5 Variants on Dives and Lazarus (played at VW's funeral in Westminster Abbey) and Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm as my own little tribute.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 25, 2008, 04:48:11 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 24, 2008, 08:29:30 PM
I've only heard Bakels and Previn thus far. I like Previn's performance but feel he could have gone further - if you're going to go slow, this music could stand to be even slower and grander.


     My rec is you go straight to Boult for Sinfonia Antartica. I have the 1953 mono recording (with the John Geilgud spoken introductions). This performance has never been surpassed and rarely equalled.   

     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VKRWJDS1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
     

     If mono isn't acceptable get the EMI stereo recording.

      (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41D35JEC9PL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

     And now I just want to look at this again after 46 years. This is my first ever LP purchase, long gone from my collection.

     (http://www.invinylveritas.com/pictures/Boultwilliams.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 25, 2008, 07:49:46 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 25, 2008, 04:48:11 PM
My rec is you go straight to Boult for Sinfonia Antartica. I have the 1953 mono recording (with the John Geilgud spoken introductions). This performance has never been surpassed and rarely equalled.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VKRWJDS1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)   

If mono isn't acceptable get the EMI stereo recording.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41D35JEC9PL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Thanks for the recommend. I've been anguishing slightly about which cycle to buy next - Boult/Decca often seems to be discounted because of the earlier, mono sound, making the comparisons I've read a little difficult to gauge. If those recordings are at least equal to the Collins Sibelius cycle (one of my favourites), I think I would be happy with it. Overlooking sound differences, the main differences between the Boult cycles seem to be small degrees of energy and speed.

I'm also wondering about the Haitink cycle - I've read it's quite grand and "symphonic" (if you know what I mean), but I've also read that it's banal and/or "unidiomatic". But how does that contrast with Boult, so often characterised as solid and straight forward?


Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on August 25, 2008, 06:06:09 AM
to be able to say you "know" a composer's idiom, i think, definitely requires several scores and lots of time- so probably no one who regularly posts on this thread could say anything worthwhile (unless i'm proven wrong)  ;).

I think we are actually discussing idiom of performance, rather than composer. Specifically, whether there is a British "way" with Vaughan Williams' music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on August 26, 2008, 12:13:15 AM
The Boult mono sounds very decent for its age. If you are alright with older recordings in general these will not be difficult to listen to. As "interesting" as the Haitink may be, it doesn't compensate in overall value for Boult who practically owns several of the symphonies (1, 5, 6). The total inspiration of his interpretations IMO belie any thoughts of "stuffiness". If anything, that term better applies to later run-throughs by conductors performing the music on autopilot, such as Hickox. One of the Boults is basically the only "mandatory" cycle for fans - after that it's down to preference.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2008, 12:47:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 25, 2008, 04:19:39 PM
50th Anniversary of Vaughan Williams's death today as he died in the early hours of 26th August 1958, seven hours before Adrian Boult and the LPO recorded his 9th Symphony (being performed in an all VW concert at the Proms in London tonight). Sadly I wont be there as I have to take my daughter to catch the Harwich-Hook-of-Holland ferry, but I'll listen on the radio and at midnight I played the 5 Variants on Dives and Lazarus (played at VW's funeral in Westminster Abbey) and Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm as my own little tribute.

I think I'll refresh my (and RVW's) memory by listening to the Piano Concerto.

(Your daughter coming to Leiden at last!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 26, 2008, 02:13:41 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 26, 2008, 12:47:36 AM
I think I'll refesh my (and RVW's) memory by listening to the Piano Concerto.

(Your daughter coming to Leiden at last!)

OT, Yes, the great day has finally come!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 26, 2008, 08:09:12 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 26, 2008, 12:47:36 AM
I think I'll refesh my (and RVW's) memory by listening to the Piano Concerto.



This is an interesting, enjoyable version of the PC, with the Slovenian RSO:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 26, 2008, 08:11:35 AM
Proms tonight (26/8) all VW Concert. BBC Radio 3. Tallis, Job, Symphony No 9 etc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2008, 08:13:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 26, 2008, 08:11:35 AM
Proms tonight (26/8) all VW Concert. BBC Radio 3. Tallis, Job, Symphony No 9 etc.

Thanks for the reminder!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on August 26, 2008, 08:40:14 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 24, 2008, 02:02:38 PM
Thanks for this contribution. You don't have to "apologize" for re-opening the discussion - it was never really "opened" since no one so far has been able to say what an "idiomatic" performance of RVW's music actually is.

I beg you pardon, MF, but I addressed precisely that point when the issue was raised.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 26, 2008, 09:57:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 26, 2008, 08:09:12 AM
This is an interesting, enjoyable version of the PC, with the Slovenian RSO:

I seriously doubt it's a patch for the Lyrita version (which also includes John Foulds' fine Dynamic Triptych.

(http://www.lyrita.co.uk/covers/SRCD0211.jpg)

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2008, 10:56:30 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 26, 2008, 09:57:23 AM
I seriously doubt it's a patch for the Lyrita version (which also includes John Foulds' fine Dynamic Triptych.

(http://www.lyrita.co.uk/covers/SRCD0211.jpg)

Thomas

Which is what I listened to.

At the moment: Job has just started on BBC 3....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2008/promsbroadcasts/
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 27, 2008, 01:18:30 PM
I listened to the concert on the car radio en-route to Holland. Oddly nostalgic for me. I first discovered Vaughan Williams when I was 17 in  1972 and worked on a farm in Holland for 6 weeks between school and university in the summer of 1973. I remember driving round the farm tractor in deserted fields in Zeeland (at a mad reckless speed....I was much less timid in tose days) with Vaughan Williams's Ninth Symphony running through my head.  It was really weird and a huge nostalgia trip to be listening to Symphony No 9 on the car radio while taking my daughter to study in Holland for one year.  The performance of Job and the Ninth Symphony, conducted by Andrew Davis sounded very moving. Hearing Job was another nostalgic experience as I heard Adrian Boult conduct it (it is dedicated to him) on 12th October 1972 at the Festival Hall in London, VW's 100th birthday.

For me the highlight of this anniversary year has been attending The Pilgrim's Progress in London and I am looking forward to hearing Richard Hickox conduct symphonies 5,6 and 9 in November.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 27, 2008, 02:23:15 PM
Quote from: Lethe on August 26, 2008, 12:13:15 AM
The Boult mono sounds very decent for its age. If you are alright with older recordings in general these will not be difficult to listen to. As "interesting" as the Haitink may be, it doesn't compensate in overall value for Boult who practically owns several of the symphonies (1, 5, 6). The total inspiration of his interpretations IMO belie any thoughts of "stuffiness". If anything, that term better applies to later run-throughs by conductors performing the music on autopilot, such as Hickox. One of the Boults is basically the only "mandatory" cycle for fans - after that it's down to preference.

     Hickox has done a fine 5th, though I'll take Barbirolli, Boult, and Previn ahead of it. The Hickox London Symphony with the restored cuts is a special case. I need to listen to it some more.

     Last night I played the London Symphony recording made by Barbirolli with the Hallé Orchestra (not the later one on EMI).

     (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2002/Apr02/barb_RVW.jpg)

    This is really interesting. The sound is very clear for a 1956 recording, and the orchestra plays beautifully and expressively (with the usual limitations of this group). The recording was made by the Mercury team, and sounds like it.

     Edit: It was not made by the Mercury team. The 8th symphony, on the same disc, was. This 1957 recording is by the Pye team (Robert Auger, Douglas Terry). It's hard to describe how it differs from other good recordings from the era, so:

     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/IV%20%20Andante%20con%20moto.mp3
[/mp3]

     It's remarkably dynamic for a recording of this age, and less congested sounding on peaks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2008, 03:25:23 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 27, 2008, 01:18:30 PM
I listened to the concert on the car radio en-route to Holland. Oddly nostalgic for me. I first discovered Vaughan Williams when I was 17 in  1972 and worked on a farm in Holland for 6 weeks between school and university in the summer of 1973. I remember driving round the farm tractor in deserted fields in Zeeland (at a mad reckless speed....I was much less timid in tose days) with Vaughan Williams's Ninth Symphony running through my head.  It was really weird and a huge nostalgia trip to be listening to Symphony No 9 on the car radio while taking my daughter to study in Holland for one year.  The performance of Job and the Ninth Symphony, conducted by Andrew Davis sounded very moving. Hearing Job was another nostalgic experience as I heard Adrian Boult conduct it (it is dedicated to him) on 12th October 1972 at the Festival Hall in London, VW's 100th birthday.

For me the highlight of this anniversary year has been attending The Pilgrim's Progress in London and I am looking forward to hearing Richard Hickox conduct symphonies 5,6 and 9 in November.

I KNEW you'd be listening to the concert on your car radio! I only wondered whether your daughter would put up with it. But she apparently did...  :)

I always have a problem with Sir Andrew Davies in that I find his conducting rather run-of-the-mill. I like his (rostrum) personality more than his talent. Both Job and the Ninth need a visionary to really bring them off, which Andrew Davies, IMO, signally isn't... Still - I enjoyed the performances up to a certain point (the works are so strong, they can withstand mediocrity).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 28, 2008, 05:56:47 AM
Just realized it was his 50th anniversary of death (2008-08-26).
Deutschlandfunk addresses this. (http://www.podcast.de/episode/836000/Ralph_Vaughan_Williams,_50._Todestag) (German language)

Bought today of Chandos: Christmas Music and On Wenlock Edge etc.:

(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/rvw_tn.jpg) (http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/rvw.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2008, 07:48:09 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on August 28, 2008, 05:56:47 AM
Just realized it was his 50th anniversary of death (2008-08-26).
Deutschlandfunk addresses this. (http://www.podcast.de/episode/836000/Ralph_Vaughan_Williams,_50._Todestag) (German language)

Thanks for the link!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 29, 2008, 04:48:59 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 27, 2008, 03:25:23 PM
I KNEW you'd be listening to the concert on your car radio! I only wondered whether your daughter would put up with it. But she apparently did...  :)

I always have a problem with Sir Andrew Davies in that I find his conducting rather run-of-the-mill. I like his (rostrum) personality more than his talent. Both Job and the Ninth need a visionary to really bring them off, which Andrew Davies, IMO, signally isn't... Still - I enjoyed the performances up to a certain point (the works are so strong, they can withstand mediocrity).


The deal was that she HAD to put up with me listening to it on the car radio, in return for me accompanying her on the madcap trip to Leiden at the last minute. There was one ugly moment, however, when she decided to call her boyfriend on her mobile and instructed me to "turn the music down"  :o >:D >:(. I explained that I was doing no such thing, so a sort-of compromise was eventually reached where I pretended to turn the radio down, but then turned it straight up again ;D

It sounded to me (from what I was allowed to hear) that Davis's performances of Job and the 9th Symphony were rather better than those on his Warner CD coupling but, no doubt, the moving nature of the occasion and the live, appreciative (apart from my daughter) audience had something to do with that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2008, 05:48:44 AM
My apologies to Sir Andrew Davis for consistently and stupidly misspelling his name...  ???

Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2008, 04:48:59 AM

The deal was that she HAD to put up with me listening to it on the car radio, in return for me accompanying her on the madcap trip to Leiden at the last minute. There was one ugly moment, however, when she decided to call her boyfriend on her mobile and instructed me to "turn the music down"  :o >:D >:(. I explained that I was doing no such thing, so a sort-of compromise was eventually reached where I pretended to turn the radio down, but then turned it straight up again ;D

For this you'll receive from me the sobriquet Braveheart.

QuoteIt sounded to me (from what I was allowed to hear) that Davis's performances of Job and the 9th Symphony were rather better than those on his Warner CD coupling but, no doubt, the moving nature of the occasion and the live, appreciative (apart from my daughter) audience had something to do with that.

He has improved, then. Still, I don't expect greatness from him, alas...  :(



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 29, 2008, 09:24:38 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 29, 2008, 05:48:44 AM
My apologies to Sir Andrew Davis for consistently and stupidly misspelling his name...  ???

For this you'll receive from me the sobriquet Braveheart.

He has improved, then. Still, I don't expect greatness from him, alas...  :(

OT

Yes, Davis without the "e" is the more cultured spelling  ;D

"Braveheart" yes, that suits me, notwithstanding the fact that I screamed when a frog  jumped out in front of me a while back.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 29, 2008, 10:27:41 AM
Quote from: scarpia on August 26, 2008, 08:40:14 AM
I beg you pardon, MF, but I addressed precisely that point when the issue was raised.


Did you mean the string sound or the grunting part?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 29, 2008, 10:59:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 27, 2008, 01:18:30 PM
I listened to the concert on the car radio en-route to Holland. Oddly nostalgic for me. I first discovered Vaughan Williams when I was 17 in  1972 and worked on a farm in Holland for 6 weeks between school and university in the summer of 1973. I remember driving round the farm tractor in deserted fields in Zeeland (at a mad reckless speed....I was much less timid in tose days) with Vaughan Williams's Ninth Symphony running through my head.  It was really weird and a huge nostalgia trip to be listening to Symphony No 9 on the car radio while taking my daughter to study in Holland for one year. 

Lovely story, read with great pleasure. :D The empty horizon of Zeeland filled with the sound of Vaughan Williams' Ninth, back in the 1970s...  ::) My own first encounter with the Ninth came later in the decade, but in a similar landscape. I remember vividly that our Radio 4 broadcasted all of his symphonies, probably Boult's second cycle, in the Summer of 1978. And I hurried back home after school on my bike, 11 kilometres (sorry: 7 miles) through a similar type of "polder" (your "deserted fields") just in time to hear the mysterious Finale of the Ninth, but too late for the first three movements. For a couple of years, that was the only part of the Ninth I knew, since I could only afford to buy an LP with it (Previn's) in the Spring of 1981.

Well, those were the days.  8)

BTW, there's a literary equivalent to your nostalgic memories of Zeeland. In 1962, William Golding wrote about his sailing trip across the Channel to Zeeland, for the Holiday magazine, reprinted among his collection of essays in `A Moving Target'. His observations on the landscape and its people remind me of your account - might be fun to read them (for me, they are).  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 29, 2008, 11:04:36 AM
I have listened to most of the VW symphonies at some point, but I never got much into the music. Maybe I should have another go at exploring his "idiom". What symphonies would the VW experts here recommend to listen to first?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 29, 2008, 11:45:24 AM

     I would start with the 5th symphony. There are a number of fine performances to choose from.

     Here are 2 CDs that would be a good starting point:

     (http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/9009/41wmkrbpkplss400kf6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

     Richard Hickox with the London Symphony Orchestra (http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-5/dp/B00009VZHI/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1220037683&sr=1-4), a hybrid SACD with some good couplings especially The Pilgrim Pavement.

     You might find this one even better for the study of the particular idiom of RVW, since it has performances of both the 5th and A Pastoral Symphony(No. 3) conducted by Adrian Boult, who more than anyone is responsible for establishing the performance tradition. (click the pic for link)

     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5149M3C42VL._SS400_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Nos/dp/B000002S2P/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1220037683&sr=1-2)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2008, 01:08:09 PM
Quote from: Christo on August 29, 2008, 10:59:03 AM
My own first encounter with the Ninth came later in the decade, but in a similar landscape. I remember vividly that our Radio 4 broadcast all of his symphonies, probably Boult's second cycle, in the Summer of 1978.

I don't remember. But I must have known a few of RVW's symphonies already, by then (I discovered Brian in '77, so I must have been listening to British music)...

QuoteBTW, there's a literary equivalent to your nostalgic memories of Zeeland. In 1962, William Golding wrote about his sailing trip across the Channel to Zeeland, for the Holiday magazine, reprinted among his collection of essays in `A Moving Target'. His observations on the landscape and its people remind me of your account - might be fun to read them (for me, they are).  :)

Interesting!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 29, 2008, 02:47:57 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 29, 2008, 11:04:36 AM
I have listened to most of the VW symphonies at some point, but I never got much into the music. Maybe I should have another go at exploring his "idiom". What symphonies would the VW experts here recommend to listen to first?

VW's own favourite was A London Symphony and, at some point you must listen to the original version on Chandos (Hickox) which contains some exquisite music which VW later excised from the score. Generally though, symphonies 4-6 are considered the greatest. EMI have just issued an inexpensive double album with all three symphonies in great performances (Gibson/Berglund, link below). I think that that would be a good place to start. The Chandos CD (Hickox) with No 5 on is very good and contains some unusual other works like The Pilgrim's Pavement.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Nos-6/dp/B0018OAP2U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1220050121&sr=1-1

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on August 29, 2008, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2008, 02:47:57 PM
VW's own favourite was A London Symphony and, at some point you must listen to the original version on Chandos (Hickox) which contains some exquisite music which VW later excised from the score.

for good reason too. Composers have to have the courage to cut even exquisite music when it's out of place, makes the music too long, or obscures the structure. RVW had that courage.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 29, 2008, 03:01:22 PM
Quote from: Christo on August 29, 2008, 10:59:03 AM
Lovely story, read with great pleasure. :D The empty horizon of Zeeland filled with the sound of Vaughan Williams' Ninth, back in the 1970s...  ::) My own first encounter with the Ninth came later in the decade, but in a similar landscape. I remember vividly that our Radio 4 broadcasted all of his symphonies, probably Boult's second cycle, in the Summer of 1978. And I hurried back home after school on my bike, 11 kilometres (sorry: 7 miles) through a similar type of "polder" (your "deserted fields") just in time to hear the mysterious Finale of the Ninth, but too late for the first three movements. For a couple of years, that was the only part of the Ninth I knew, since I could only afford to buy an LP with it (Previn's) in the Spring of 1981.

Well, those were the days.  8)

BTW, there's a literary equivalent to your nostalgic memories of Zeeland. In 1962, William Golding wrote about his sailing trip across the Channel to Zeeland, for the Holiday magazine, reprinted among his collection of essays in `A Moving Target'. His observations on the landscape and its people remind me of your account - might be fun to read them (for me, they are).  :)


Thank you Johan,

Yes, there was something about the juxtapostion of the empty Zeeland sky (empty that is apart from the occasional Dutch airforce jet fighter), and Vaughan Williams's Ninth Symphony which stayed with me. My first VW LP was of Morton Gould conducting the Tallis Fantasia, English Folk Song suite etc, but what bowled me over was the Boult Decca Eclipse LP of Symphony No 6 (complete with composer's speech) which I bought one day on my way home from school.  After that I saved up from my Saturday job in the WH Smith record dept in Earl's Court Rd, until I could buy the Boult EMI LP cycle in a boxed set and I never looked back (infact my wages were invariably spent on LPs)

William Golding; interesting. I will look out for that.  In fact I had to study Golding's novels in my first year at university. I enjoyed Lord of the Flies but found works like Pincher Martin rather heavy going.  My feelings may be different now.

By the way, I bought a map of the Netherlands in Leiden yesterday and worked where the farm was. It was at a remote place called Portvliet on the island of Tholen in Zeeland. I would be curious to go back there one day.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 29, 2008, 03:07:03 PM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on August 29, 2008, 02:51:14 PM
for good reason too. Composers have to have the courage to cut even exquisite music when it's out of place, makes the music too long, or obscures the structure. RVW had that courage.

Yes, but I think that excising the section just before the end was a mistake; one of the most moving passages in all VW. I think that at that point (and that point only) the structural gain was offset by the poetic loss. At the time of his final revision (1936), VW was very influenced by Sibelius. I have also seen it argued that the cut at the end actually weakens the structure by creation too abrupt a transition to the Epilogue section.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 29, 2008, 03:14:08 PM
I think I actually have the 5th symphony because I have a Telarc disc of the Tallis Fantasia with RPO/Previn which also has the 5th on it. The Tallis Fantasia is the only VW piece I know very well because I once performed it with my chamber group in Berlin. There is a chance I might still have a copy of the recording of the concert (every time I am reminded of this, I could hit my head against the wall because when I last came across the tape, I think that was when I packed for moving to the US 5 years ago, I didn't set it aside but packed it up with other stuff...).
Anyway, when I listened to the 5th, I didn't find much access to the music. I might buy the download of that Boult recording. I think I also have the 6th and 9th with LSO/Previn somewhere. Did Previn understand the very special "idiom"?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 29, 2008, 03:19:19 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 29, 2008, 03:14:08 PM
I think I actually have the 5th symphony because I have a Telarc disc of the Tallis Fantasia with RPO/Previn which also has the 5th on it. The Tallis Fantasia is the only VW piece I know very well because I once performed it with my chamber group in Berlin. There is a chance I might still have a copy of the recording of the concert (every time I am reminded of this, I could hit my head against the wall because when I last came across the tape, I think that was when I packed for moving to the US 5 years ago, I didn't set it aside but packed it up with other stuff...).
Anyway, when I listened to the 5th, I didn't find much access to the music. I might buy the download of that Boult recording. I think I also have the 6th and 9th with LSO/Previn somewhere. Did Previn understand the very special "idiom"?

By the way, the CD I recommended above (Berglund/Gibson) has a wonderful performance of the Tallis Fantasia conducted by Constantin Sivestri in Winchester Cathedral; my favourite version of this much recorded work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 29, 2008, 04:16:22 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 29, 2008, 03:14:08 PM
Did Previn understand the very special "idiom"?

    Idioms aren't special, as you probably know. It's just what's been done and passed down. For me, Previn sounds like an insider, someone who understands what the music requires without a lot of work (not that he didn't do it. Perhaps the work paid off).

   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 29, 2008, 04:21:11 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 29, 2008, 04:16:22 PM
Idioms aren't special, as you probably know.

I didn't, actually. I thought a specific "idiom" is always "special" (as well as specific) because it is a distinct set of expressive and stylistic means.

Quote from: drogulus on August 29, 2008, 04:16:22 PM
It's just what's been done and passed down.

The question is, what has "been done and passed down"?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 29, 2008, 06:25:33 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 29, 2008, 04:21:11 PM
I didn't, actually. I thought a specific "idiom" is always "special" (as well as specific) because it is a distinct set of expressive and stylistic means.

The question is, what has "been done and passed down"?

     Yes, you know the lingo, I see. Also, you probably know something about how it's used by performers, which I wouldn't know, not being one. So how about you cut the shit with your mock questions and tell me what, in your educated opinion, "a distinct set of expressive and stylistic means" means from a working musicians perspective. We listeners would like to know, and I said in an earlier post, I'd like to know.

     I recognize, within limits, what so-called authentic performances sound like, though I've made it clear that recognizing something as familiar and liking it are not the same as knowing in detail how this is accomplished.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 29, 2008, 06:52:25 PM
I can't tell you what's "idiomatic" when it comes to VW because I don't know the music well (in fact, very little). That's why I am asking. ome experts here pointed or rather hinted at a particular idiom and some musicians' familiarity (or lack thereof) , so I want to know, what characterizes that? You said yourself that to you, Previn sounds "like an insider", what elements of his interpretations make you think that?

I just listened to the 6th symphony which was quite interesting although I wouldn't pretend that I got more than a superficial first impression. I couldn't follow the music completely. My initial reaction was like, OK, so what was your point? I am not sure I get what the music tries to express, both in musical or extra-musical (if any) dimensions. I could tell though he really liked Ravel, Nielsen, and Janáček.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 29, 2008, 07:08:38 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 29, 2008, 06:52:25 PM
I can't tell you what's "idiomatic" when it comes to VW because I don't know the music well (in fact, very little). That's why I am asking. ome experts here pointed or rather hinted at a particular idiom and some musicians' familiarity (or lack thereof) , so I want to know, what characterizes that? You said yourself that to you, Previn sounds "like an insider", what elements of his interpretations make you think that?

I just listened to the 6th symphony which was quite interesting although I wouldn't pretend that I got more than a superficial first impression. I couldn't follow the music completely. My initial reaction was like, OK, so what was your point? I am not sure I get what the music tries to express, both in musical or extra-musical (if any) dimensions. I could tell though he really liked Ravel, Nielsen, and Janáček.

    OK, there are 2 things here. One is knowing what is or isn't idiomatic, the way I and others have used this expression. The second thing is what makes a particular performance idiomatic. What am I recognizing as familiar and convincing? That's what I don't know. I haven't heard the Previn since I owned the LP 20 years ago, so what impressed me about it has been lost.

    Now your point about RVW ("OK, so what was your point?") is in fact a very common reaction to his music, in part because of its modal nature. It seems that it just goes round and round. There are all these minor seconds and thirds that just keep piling up and where are they going? I can easily put myself in the frame of mind of someone who doesn't know what's going on. So I think that rather than understanding RVWs music I've been accustomed to it after it grabbed me at a very early age. I recognize that RVW does to some extent represent a special problem without knowing how exactly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 29, 2008, 07:36:23 PM
I think parts of the first movement are his answer to Gershwin's "American in Paris"  $:) I like the somewhat improvisatory, strolling nature of that music though, with lots of small surprises and unexpected turns here and there. The interesting thing is that in other sections, the same disjointedness of musical thought is there, too, with long, rambling declamations which appear to me to be more the attempt at an than an actually widely arched statement. But again, these are just first impressions. I have a feeling this performance isn't as coherent as it could (and should) be. A lot of phrase turns aren't really shaped, they just happen, and there are no special inflections in most of these places. So I have the feeling that the conductor doesn't have an overall concept, he seems to shape the music a little bit as it goes along, but many of these phrase turns appear to surprise him, too, as some passages sound rather awkward.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on August 29, 2008, 09:42:56 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 29, 2008, 10:27:41 AM
Did you mean the string sound or the grunting part?

I consider the string sound to be a superficial attribute in comparison with the grunting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 29, 2008, 11:08:45 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 29, 2008, 06:52:25 PM
I can't tell you what's "idiomatic" when it comes to VW because I don't know the music well (in fact, very little). That's why I am asking. ome experts here pointed or rather hinted at a particular idiom and some musicians' familiarity (or lack thereof) , so I want to know, what characterizes that? You said yourself that to you, Previn sounds "like an insider", what elements of his interpretations make you think that?

I just listened to the 6th symphony which was quite interesting although I wouldn't pretend that I got more than a superficial first impression. I couldn't follow the music completely. My initial reaction was like, OK, so what was your point? I am not sure I get what the music tries to express, both in musical or extra-musical (if any) dimensions. I could tell though he really liked Ravel, Nielsen, and Janáček.

I find it very doubtful he knew very much Janáček, FWIW. In his book 'National Music' he doesn't mention the name once; when he talks about Czech music only the names of Dvorak and Smetana are found. OTOH, about a decade after the composition of VW's 6th we find Tippett writing of Jenufa with the joy and wonder of a great discovery - to paraphrase, 'I'd heard of this composer, but I didn't expect anything like this!'. If that was the case for Tippett, a younger composer as aware of 'The Repertoire' as any other British composer, I'm sure it was for VW too.

Re the 6th - its structure, its 'point' to use your word, was devastatingly clear to me from the first time I heard it as a youngster: the alternation of aggressive, demonic and destructive forces (nagging ostinati, wheeling and wheedling tritones, galumphing cross-rhythms...) with folk-music-type lyricism forms the heart of the first movement (reminds me somewhat of Brian's 8th - would be an interesting and revealing coupling!). In the central movements negativity has the upper hand, so that the unique bleached-out epilogue is all that is left to be said. This movement is sometimes seen as a post-nuclear wasteland, which would make the various elements of the rest of the symphony somehow warlike in association. That makes some sense, of course - certainly we have martial elements, grotesqueries, 'grace-under-fire' and so on - but we ought to be careful about ascribing this sort of thing. Especially as VW said elsewhere when such subtexts were applied to his music "...why can't a fellow just write a piece of music?"

A very penetrating, revealing read is Wilfrid Meller's study on VW, the 'Vision of Albion'. One of those books which takes analysis to the point it always aims at but rarely achieves: a real elucidation of why the music works as it does, why it has the strong-but-previously-indescribable emotional impact that it has. His explanation of the implication of false relations, for instance, is extraordinary and, speaking from my own listening experience, absolutely correct, though until I'd read it, I had no idea that this was why I experienced the music as I did.

I second, BTW, the advice to listen to the sequence 4-5-6....but I'm loath to leave out 3, which is an equally remarkable work (and pre-dates Ligeti by decades in its use of 'out-of-tune' natural horn playing!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 29, 2008, 11:16:15 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 29, 2008, 11:08:45 PM
I find it very doubtful he knew very much Janáček, FWIW. In his book 'National Music' he doesn't mention the name once; when he talks about Czech music only the names of Dvorak and Smetana are found. OTOH, about a decade after the composition of VW's 6th we find Tippett writing of Jenufa with the joy and wonder of a great discovery - to paraphrase, 'I'd heard of this composer, but I didn't expect anything like this!'. If that was the case for Tippett, a younger composer as aware of 'The Repertoire' as any other British composer, I'm sure it was for VW too.


I wrote this and then suddenly remembered Janacek's single visit to Britain in 1926, at the behest of Rosa Newmarch. I remembered that Henry Wood had played a role in the welcoming committee, but then I had a flash of recollection that RVW did too, though how much he knew of Janacek's music at this time when hardly anyone knew much of it is unknown to me. This interesting article from Musicweb (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Chisholm/Janacek/chapter1.htm) implies that despite being on the committee, as a composer with his interest in 'national music' ought to be, he can't have known much, as I suspect, for the reasons outlined before.

QuoteJanáček visited London only once in his life-during April-May 1926 at the time of the General Strike-at the invitation of an influential group of English musicians headed by Rosa Newmarch who, at that time, was the leading propagandist of Czech music in Britain. Others on the committee were Sir Henry Wood, Adrian Boult, Sir Hugh Allen and Vaughan Williams. Janáček's music was then little known in England although his operas (particularly Jenůfa) were becoming increasingly popular elsewhere. In the same year as Janáček visited London, Jenůfa was played in about seventy different opera houses: the first English production, however, did not occur till thirty years later.

(that's the production that Tippett found so revelatory.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2008, 11:34:00 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 29, 2008, 11:08:45 PM
Re the 6th - its structure, its 'point' to use your word, was devastatingly clear to me from the first time I heard it as a youngster

Same here. For the rest - excellent post. I am reading 'The Vision of Albion' at the moment - it shows extraordinary insight into what makes RVW tick. I would recommend it only to those already 'touched' by his music, though (and who possess some grounding in the mechanics of music). Elucidation can only become revelatory if you are already 'inside', so to speak.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 29, 2008, 11:56:05 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2008, 03:01:22 PM
(empty that is apart from the occasional Dutch airforce jet fighter

We were similarly exposed to them in our "polder": in those days they were Starfighters, and occasionally a Northrop 5

Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2008, 03:01:22 PM
William Golding; interesting. I will look out for that.  In fact I had to study Golding's novels in my first year at university. I enjoyed Lord of the Flies but found works like Pincher Martin rather heavy going.  My feelings may be different now.

I enjoyed all of his novels, especially Free Fall, Rites of Passage and his unfinished The Double Tongue. I mentioned his name because I guess there might be some similarities between his interests and yours, but that's just my intuition.

Poortvliet at Tholen: never been there, but I imagine the landscape to be rather similar to where I grew up. An ideal setting for Vaughan Williams, imo.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 30, 2008, 12:33:38 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 29, 2008, 11:56:05 PM
We were similarly exposed to them in our "polder": in those days they were Starfighters, and occasionally a Northrop 5

I enjoyed all of his novels, especially Free Fall, Rites of Passage and his unfinished The Double Tongue. I mentioned his name because I guess there might be some similarities between his interests and yours, but that's just my intuition.

Poortvliet at Tholen: never been there, but I imagine the landscape to be rather similar to where I grew up. An ideal setting for Vaughan Williams, imo.  ;)



Actually I was knocked off my bicycle by a Dutch airforce jet. Not literally, of course, otherwise I would not be here, but it flew so low above me, as I was cyclying along, minding my own business, huming Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony to myself, that I had a big fright and turned my bike into a ditch  ::)

Other than that, you are right, the landscape went very well with Symphony No 9.  Happy memories (apart from the Starfighter, or whatever it was !).

I usually associate VW with landscape. Nos 1,2 and 7 are obvious but No 6 always is associated in mind with the bleaker elements of the English countryside, probably because of the photo of the Lake District (Blea Tarn in Cumbria) on the sleeve of my old Decca Eclipse LP.  such is the power of association. Interestingly, the same area features on the cover painting of Kees Bakels's Naxos recording of Symphony 6.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 04:58:10 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 29, 2008, 07:36:23 PM
I think parts of the first movement are his answer to Gershwin's "American in Paris"  $:)

I find this a most surprising link! I'd be interested to hear your reasons for making it. I suppose, if I look totally objectively at the piece, I could with difficulty twist some of its features - major-minor harmonies, syncopated marching/walking figures - so as to force a connection with the Gershwin, but it's an enormous stretch. To me, this whole movement is cries of pain, destruction, brutishness (unusually, the fairly complex syncopations and rhythmic dislocations cause the music to become deliberately lumpen and degraded), lyricism momentarily resurgent....

Quote from: M forever on August 29, 2008, 07:36:23 PM
I like the somewhat improvisatory, strolling nature of that music though, with lots of small surprises and unexpected turns here and there. The interesting thing is that in other sections, the same disjointedness of musical thought is there, too, with long, rambling declamations which appear to me to be more the attempt at an than an actually widely arched statement. But again, these are just first impressions. I have a feeling this performance isn't as coherent as it could (and should) be. A lot of phrase turns aren't really shaped, they just happen, and there are no special inflections in most of these places. So I have the feeling that the conductor doesn't have an overall concept, he seems to shape the music a little bit as it goes along, but many of these phrase turns appear to surprise him, too, as some passages sound rather awkward.

Deryck Cooke chose this symphony as the subject of one of the two extended studies that form the last part of his classic 'The Language of Music' (the other was Mozart #40). He saw it as a work of extreme urgency and great communicative power, and as one which used that 'language of music' in such a way as to ensure compelling sweep and unity from start to finish. That's certainly how I've always experienced the work - as one of the most compelling and stripped-down of all 20th century symphonies. Just FWIW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2008, 05:09:33 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 04:58:10 AM
I find this a most surprising link!

This suddenly brings back my memory of listening to VW's London symphony for the first time - the 'jaunty' (Mellers) second subject of the first movement also reminded me of Gershwin (I didn't know Elgar's Cockaigne, then, or Walton's Portsmouth Point, which inhabit some of the same world).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 05:14:27 AM
Now, that connection I can understand a little more. 'A Gloucestershirian in London', perhaps. With horse 'jingles' replacing car-horns.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 30, 2008, 06:56:24 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 29, 2008, 07:36:23 PM
I think parts of the first movement are his answer to Gershwin's "American in Paris"  $:) I like the somewhat improvisatory, strolling nature of that music though, with lots of small surprises and unexpected turns here and there. The interesting thing is that in other sections, the same disjointedness of musical thought is there, too, with long, rambling declamations which appear to me to be more the attempt at an than an actually widely arched statement. But again, these are just first impressions. I have a feeling this performance isn't as coherent as it could (and should) be. A lot of phrase turns aren't really shaped, they just happen, and there are no special inflections in most of these places. So I have the feeling that the conductor doesn't have an overall concept, he seems to shape the music a little bit as it goes along, but many of these phrase turns appear to surprise him, too, as some passages sound rather awkward.

    I don't think Gershwin is right. The London Symphony premiered in 1914, An American in Paris in 1928. The rest of your impressions sound spot on, but note that I have the same reactions after decades of listening to these works. Vaughan Williams is a composer whose difficulties don't disappear with time, they're just there. You either accept what he does or you don't, and some people never do. This is a problem I don't have with Sibelius, Hindemith, Shostakovitch, or Copland (and certainly not with Mahler or Strauss, who by comparison compose like schoolboys eager to please their instructor). I do have it with Roy Harris, who goes off on inexplicable tangents in his music that leave me baffled, not unlike Vaughan Williams.

         
Quote(apart from the Starfighter, or whatever it was !).

      (http://www.flightsimx.co.uk/images/AlphaSimreleasesF104Starfighter_7388/F104_2.jpg)

    I read a book some years ago that analyzed RVWs music in some detail. It mostly flew right over my head, though I might understand it a little better today. I wish I could remember what it was.

     Edit: Could it have been the Kennedy book?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on August 30, 2008, 09:24:04 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 30, 2008, 05:09:33 AM
This suddenly brings back my memory of listening to VW's London symphony for the first time - the 'jaunty' (Mellers) second subject of the first movement also reminded me of Gershwin (I didn't know Elgar's Cockaigne, then, or Walton's Portsmouth Point, which inhabit some of the same world).

But it's just got to be some kind of English or Scottish folk song. Is this the theme with the syncopation in the first bar? (sol-la---do-re---mi----sol) The 5th-8th bars of it sound like "Loch Lomond". A lot of themes in this movement sound like folk songs.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 09:47:59 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on August 30, 2008, 09:24:04 AM
But it's just got to be some kind of English or Scottish folk song. Is this the theme with the syncopation in the first bar? (sol-la---do-re---mi----sol) The 5th-8th bars of it sound like "Loch Lomond". A lot of themes in this movement sound like folk songs.

IIRC the only genuine folk songs quoted in VW symphonies are to be found buried somewhere in the scherzo of the Sea Symphony. In general he doesn't use folk songs as source material in works that aren't arrangements.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on August 30, 2008, 09:51:07 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 09:47:59 AM
IIRC the only genuine folk songs quoted in VW symphonies are to be found buried somewhere in the scherzo of the Sea Symphony. In general he doesn't use folk songs as source material in works that aren't arrangements.


But he knew them well enough that he could come up with his own tunes in the same style.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 09:54:37 AM
Oh absolutely! And he turns the 'folk music style' into a style with its own moral tone, so that when we hear the (original) 'folk tune' in the first movement of the 6th it affects us as more than 'a good tune' but as a positive or natural force.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2008, 09:54:49 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on August 30, 2008, 09:24:04 AM
But it's just got to be some kind of English or Scottish folk song. Is this the theme with the syncopation in the first bar? (sol-la---do-re---mi----sol) The 5th-8th bars of it sound like "Loch Lomond". A lot of themes in this movement sound like folk songs.

I was not so much thinking of that theme (with its 'Scotch snap' and whose 5th-8th bars do indeed sound like "Loch Lomond" speeded up!), but that car-honking motif with the percussion (bass drum + cymbals).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 30, 2008, 01:09:49 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 30, 2008, 06:56:24 AM
I don't think Gershwin is right. The London Symphony premiered in 1914, An American in Paris in 1928.

I wasn't talking about the London Symphony (which I only heard once a long time ago, incidentally, in London, and which I might listen to next - I like London, have been there many times and actually lived there for a few months at on point).

Quote from: drogulus on August 30, 2008, 06:56:24 AM
(and certainly not with Mahler or Strauss, who by comparison compose like schoolboys eager to please their instructor)

That's a surprisingly silly comparison. I usually avoid these comparisons anyway since I don't see much point in it, although it is sometimes interesting to compare how different composers work with similar material or ideas. If you have to make that comparison, what you said really doesn't make sense since in their time, both Mahler and Strauss (pre-WWI) were much more innovative than VW appears to me to have been (I don't know enough of the music yet to have a more pronounced opinion about that, obviously), and, this is easily overlooked because they are so immensely popular composers today, also much more controversial and much less compromising. In fact, when I listen to this piece (VW's 6th) what kind of puts me off is a sense of complacency that the music has for me, not self-confidence with itself after having gone through a long process of refinement and self-criticism, but simply lack of critical review. It sounds to me as if he simply put everything in that he came up with and didn't even bother much to look into how some of the material (like the tatata in the second movement) could have been developed or employed more effectively.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 30, 2008, 01:22:06 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 29, 2008, 11:08:45 PM
I find it very doubtful he knew very much Janáček, FWIW.

I think it's very obvious that he knew the Sinfonietta, if you listen carefully to the first movement (e.g. about 1'30 into it, but also in other places). It's also obvious that he knew Bartók well (see the epilogue of the 6th symphony). And that's basically OK, all composers work from what has been before them, process it and make the material their own and (hopefully) original musical language. In this piece though I simply had the déjà-vu (or rather déjà-ecouté) way too much for comfort. Rather like with the other well known Williams.
I think I will listen to the London Symphony next. There is a download of that symphony with Boult on amazon, and since Boult is said to embody the authentic style of performance, I can also look for that elusive "idiom" there, I guess.

I would be interested to have some more feedback about that Previn recording of the 6th that I listened to. My feeling is that whatever its coherence (or lack thereof) is, my feeling is that material can be presented in a more compelling and coherent way than Previn did.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 01:38:21 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 01:09:49 PM
I wasn't talking about the London Symphony (which I only heard once a long time ago, incidentally, in London, and which I might listen to next - I like London, have been there many times and actually lived there for a few months at on point).

No, I didn't think you were talking about the London Symphony! It confused me a little when Ernie brought that up.... To clarify, my own comments on your Gershwin comparison therefore still stand, FWIW.

Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 01:09:49 PM
That's a surprisingly silly comparison. I usually avoid these comparisons anyway since I don't see much point in it, although it is sometimes interesting to compare how different composers work with similar material or ideas. If you have to make that comparison, what you said really doesn't make sense since in their time, both Mahler and Strauss (pre-WWI) were much more innovative than VW appears to me to have been (I don't know enough of the music yet to have a more pronounced opinion about that, obviously), and, this is easily overlooked because they are so immensely popular composers today, also much more controversial and much less compromising.

Like the 'atonal v tonal' debate, I think the 'innovative v non-innovative' debate is somewhat misleading. I'd say that VW is, in his own terms and in his own context, every bit as innovative and uncompromising as Mahler and Strauss. Certainly there was no-one like him before; it's a quiet revolution that he initiated but a real one. His innovations show themselves in less obvious ways than those which go into the grand Hegelian narrative of classical music - no enormous contributions to the art of orchestration, no increase in density or complexity of rhythm or harmony. They are subtle, but they are very powerful.

Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 01:09:49 PM
In fact, when I listen to this piece (VW's 6th) what kind of puts me off is a sense of complacency that the music has for me, not self-confidence with itself after having gone through a long process of refinement and self-criticism, but simply lack of critical review. It sounds to me as if he simply put everything in that he came up with and didn't even bother much to look into how some of the material (like the tatata in the second movement) could have been developed or employed more effectively.

I've got the highest respect for your listening skills which far surpass mine in most ways - but I can't see how that rapped-out rhythm could be used more effectively than it is. It doesn't need to be developed or extended, beyond the increase in dynamic intensity that we find - its insistence and threatening banality seem to me to be the whole point, and VW has found a wonderful musical image here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 01:48:16 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 01:22:06 PM
I think it's very obvious that he knew the Sinfonietta, if you listen carefully to the first movement (e.g. about 1'30 into it, but also in other places). It's also obvious that he knew Bartók well (see the epilogue of the 6th symphony). And that's basically OK, all composers work from what has been before them, process it and make the material their own and (hopefully) original musical language. In this piece though I simply had the déjà-vu (or rather déjà-ecouté) way too much for comfort. Rather like with the other well known Williams.

It is very possible that he heard the Sinfonietta (though not much else), but I can't for the life of me hear a trace of it in the 6th, nor anywhere else in VW. (In fact, there are very few composers in which I can hear the influence of Janacek). At about 1'30 into my recording is a passage which reminds me of Holst, specifically The Planets - and there is a piece which VW certainly did know inside and out (including writing analyses of it). But this only sprang into my mind because I was intently listening to see if I could trace-the-influence at this point. Just listening to the music on its own merits, not trying to spot the source, all I've ever heard is pure VW!

That's not to say that VW didn't draw from elsewhere - Elgar and Parry, the English Renaissance school, Holst, Ravel at times - but that by his maturity he had developed one of the most personal, individual voices in music, one which other, later composers took a great deal from.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2008, 02:01:15 PM
When RVW's Fourth Symphony was played in Amsterdam in the 1980s, the reviewer of a local newspaper was amazed that a theme from the first movement seemed to presage Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra by a decade...

It's tempting to try to 'place' an unknown (to you) composer by comparing him to other, sometimes more internationally famous, ones. But, as Luke says, Vaughan Williams is utterly individual, once you know him. Of course he has been influenced (what artist hasn't?), but his processes and procedures are his own, and the 'virgin' listener must try to judge those on their own merits.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 30, 2008, 02:06:28 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 01:38:21 PM
His innovations show themselves in less obvious ways than those which go into the grand Hegelian narrative of classical music - no enormous contributions to the art of orchestration, no increase in density or complexity of rhythm or harmony. They are subtle, but they are very powerful.

Please explain further.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 01:38:21 PM
I've got the highest respect for your listening skills which far surpass mine in most ways - but I can't see how that rapped-out rhythm could be used more effectively than it is. It doesn't need to be developed or extended, beyond the increase in dynamic intensity that we find - its insistence and threatening banality seem to me to be the whole point, and VW has found a wonderful musical image here.

I will get back to that later after I have listened to it some more. Right now, I am listening to Boult's recording of the Tallis Fantasia (which came with the London Symphony).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 30, 2008, 02:13:27 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 30, 2008, 02:01:15 PM
It's tempting to try to 'place' an unknown (to you) composer by comparing him to other, sometimes more internationally famous, ones. But, as Luke says, Vaughan Williams is utterly individual, once you know him. Of course he has been influenced (what artist hasn't?), but his processes and procedures are his own, and the 'virgin' listener must try to judge those on their own merits.

Please read my posts before replying to them! The dscussion makes more sense that way.

Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 01:09:49 PM
That's a surprisingly silly comparison. I usually avoid these comparisons anyway since I don't see much point in it, although it is sometimes interesting to compare how different composers work with similar material or ideas.

Although in this particular case, it is very hard to avoid that because a lot of the material is more than just "influenced".

Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 01:48:16 PM
It is very possible that he heard the Sinfonietta (though not much else), but I can't for the life of me hear a trace of it in the 6th, nor anywhere else in VW. (In fact, there are very few composers in which I can hear the influence of Janacek). At about 1'30 into my recording is a passage which reminds me of Holst

My timing was wrong. Listen to the violin ostinati a little earlier, beginning at around 1'00.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 02:43:23 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 02:13:27 PM
Although in this particular case, it is very hard to avoid that because a lot of the material is more than just "influenced".

Personally, as I said, I think it extremely doubtful that the VW 6 is influenced at all in the ways you say - VW was a mature composer with a well-established language of his own by this point, a language in which he thought fluently. In any case, no other commentators who've spent a lifetime with this music seem to have noticed the influences of other composers that you found so obvious on just one listen (I've just read through a few analyses of the piece to make sure; one mentions the obvious 'grotesque stylizations of pop music' later in the music, but I don't think that's the same as saying it is influenced by American in Paris!). However, maybe VW was so influenced, it is possible. Now, though, based on that one listen, you're all of a sudden implying that VW has lifted material (with the dark phrase 'more than just "influenced" '). Why the sudden up-grade of the charge sheet? Having listened to this piece only once (or even having listened to it many times) I don't think making such definitive statements is anything more than provocative.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2008, 02:45:34 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 02:13:27 PM
Please read my posts before replying to them!

I never react to what I haven't read.

The idea that Vaughan Williams 'liked' Nielsen (unknown outside Denmark at the time) is the very understandable reaction of someone trying to place a new phenomenon. You know your Nielsen and you hear a similarity. Well, sometimes it's just a case of an affinity. Nothing more. This dangerous jumping to conclusions is what I criticized, perhaps less clearly, when I wrote "It's tempting to try to 'place' an unknown (to you) composer by comparing him to other, sometimes more internationally famous, ones". That's all.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 02:51:14 PM
That Janacek influence you sense at 1'00 - I assume you mean it is similar to the violin figure which comes at the start of the Sinfonietta's 5th movement. The figure itself, though, as used by VW, clearly derives from the movement's opening cascade of notes, curtailed and turned into a nagging, negative ostinato such as this work is filled with. Nothing more sinister than that, though. It's such a simple figure, too - a three-note descending pattern, repeating. You find it in the same form in Mozart's G major Quartet K 387 too, for example (same notation as in Janacek - VW's notation is different from either IIRC). And, no, I don't think Janacek lifted it from Mozart either.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 30, 2008, 03:14:59 PM


    The point of comparing RVW to Mahler and Strauss was about how easy it was to understand how things fit together. Because these composers are architectural in a quite familiar way I never feel lost listening to them. It doesn't mean they are lesser composers. You could put this negatively and say that RVW didn't learn his lessons, but that would lose an essential point, that his divergence was highly successful with a discerning audience, though it's taken time for him to assume the high place he holds today.

     I probably shouldn't have made it sound like I was demeaning those composers, because I admire them greatly. But I think my point is correct. If you understand their music it's because it has a very familiar form. RVW sounds completely different in this respect.

     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 03:20:57 PM
Ernie's correct about this, I think. VW's music is completely different in this respect. Formally speaking, his symphonism is not like Mahler's. But that is because he thoroughly understood what he was doing, and knew that the roots of his style implied formal structures unlike Germanic models. Which is really what all the below is about, too:

Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 02:06:28 PM
Please explain further.

First, remember that I don't claim that VW made enormous advances for the general state of future music.  I'm not going to make extravagant claims that he invented x or was the first to do y, where x and y are major features of music after him - but then, not many composers did. VW's discoveries are small-scale, but profound, and influenced the generation of British composers who followed him - in fact, they made this music possible. The following is an attempt to explain something of what I mean, but, as you can see, it's wordy. The trouble with these subtle innovations is that they don't fit into easy definitions! I quickly stop saying what VW's contribution was, and then go on to expound upon the hows and whys. But then I expect you appreciate more rather than less.

IMO perhaps the most important thing VW did was to understand the aesthetic or metaphysical implications of modality, and therefore how it could be integrated into (for instance) symphonic structures. In the finest VW modality isn't decorative, or a surface harmonic feature - it becomes structural in the deepest sense. It and its implications are thoroughly understood. The book by Mellers which I mentioned has a great deal to say on this issue, which helped me to realise quite how profoundly 'right' VW's treatment of modality, diatonicism and chromaticism is - but I have no idea how conscious VW was of the sort of things Mellers postulates. Possibly a great deal; possible not at all.

Mellers links the modality of the English Renaissance (c.f. the Tallis portions of the Tallis Fantasia) and of English folk music (c.f the solo viola tune that unfolds in the centre of the Tallis Fantasia) to the world of those pre-Enlightenment, pre-Enclosure times: the lack of sharpened leading notes etc leads to a floating music, a music in which the functional, time-directed progress from Chord A to Chord B of diatonicism is on the contrary left unemphasized. Modality, being thus relatively non-directional, is not ideally suited to the teleology of the traditional symphony. Which is why, I suppose, modality in most pre-VW symphonies is decorative rather than operational at a deeper level.

Mellers views VW as a 'double man', one caught between various postions - urban+rural, Christian+agnostic etc. - and this duality is clear in the way 'timeless' modality confronts 'teleological' diatonicism, most obviously in the sweet-painful clash of the false relation. As you know, traditional harmony explains this as a clash between two forms of a note - say, C and C# - when two lines following the rules of voice-leading but moving in contrary directions happen to contradict each other. Mellers, though, takes this a step further - the pain of the false relation derives from this metaphysical clash of types: the ancient and freely-floating (rural...) and the modern and directed (urban...)

Well, you might think that's all a load of crap, and you may be right, though I think it (as Mellers writes about it, anyway) is one of the most penetrating bits of music writing I've read. And of course, as I said, VW may have thought no such thing anyway - if you don't agree, try not to tar him with the brush you want to apply to Mellers! But the point is that VW's music does operate with this kind of thing, this duality between modality and diatonicism, with all that entails, in the background. His 5th symphony - the echt-VW symphony, IMO - is a beautiful example. We had a great discussion of it starting here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6037.msg144416.html#msg144416) on an old VW thread - read on a page or two to read more about Mellers' theory. I managed to describe it a bit more lucidly back then! In any case, what I said about the 5th symphony then was the following - I didn't play up the modality issue back then particularly because I wasn't having this discussion with you!:

Quotethis is precisely where the Fifth scores so heavily - paradise isn't reached until the end; and the gorgeousness of earlier moments is never fully stable until then. The first movement has this undertow of conflict - seen right at the opening between pure D major (the horns) and the modal implications of the underlying C; the whole movement is nagged at by this modal and chromatic ambiguity, like a Blakean worm in the rose - the development section is haunted by those baleful semitonal incantations which expand into a battering figure. The movement ends with the same C/D ambiguity it started with. Classic stuff, the sonata principle used as a vehicle for a clash of tonalities but also tonal types, the whole thing suggesting VWs perpetual concern with 'paradise' and 'fallen man'. The scherzo has similar concerns, I think, almost like a kind of perverted version of the first movement, whirring along at breakneck pace with increasing metrical complexity and conflict, eventually reaching those vicious, cruel brass outbursts. It is in the ritualistic third movement that things finally take a positive turn, but this movement needs to go through a tense fire at its heart before it can reach the balm of the coda. Full-on diatonic tonality is only reached in the last movement - paradise attained! - reaching real radiance in the polyphony of the coda.

Well, now, this deep connection between the behaviour of notes and of voice-leading and the aesthetics underpinning the music is truly rare, I think. A composer who is able to understand the full implications, structural and aesthetic, of the harmony and modality he uses, whether consciously or subconsciously, has discovered something of value, and I think this is perhaps VW's main 'discovery', if you like. Certainly, as I said, it's impossible to imagine so much later British music without this discovery. Along with a host of smaller figures, Tippett, to speak of a major figure, is a true inheritor of this aspect of VW's writing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 30, 2008, 05:55:28 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 02:43:23 PM
Now, though, based on that one listen, you're all of a sudden implying that VW has lifted material (with the dark phrase 'more than just "influenced" '). Why the sudden up-grade of the charge sheet?

I said more than just influenced, not lifted. Please don't twist my words. There are some very extended passages which really sound a lot like other composers to me - like the first minute, that sounds totally like Nielsen (but not quite as densely musical, more all over the place). The last movement sounds too much like Bartók for comfort. If the writing was more to the point, it would strike me as less driectly "influenced", but on the whole, this sounds more like someone who is an avid collector of interesting musical material than a really original composer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 30, 2008, 06:04:47 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 03:20:57 PM
Well, you might think that's all a load of crap, and you may be right

I actually thik that's quite interesting, and something to think about. It will definitely be a while anyway before I form more of an actual own opinion than these first impressions I shared here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 30, 2008, 06:58:50 PM


    I was cruising around the web looking for something about In the Fen Country, which I was listening to the other night. I had the idea that this early work (1904) represented some kind of transition. It seems that in this work RVW sticks basically to a single mode, whereas he subsequently became "multimodal". That interests me, because like everyone who studies this composer, I wonder why he sounds different. It may be because there are rules for changing keys, but no set rules for the kinds of modal changes that RVW uses. Every trip is a new one compared to the long history of tonal development. This would account for the unfinished or poorly developed impression that his music leaves, sometimes even for those who love the music. He doesn't have the history of Western music backing him up to anything like the extent of....you know. ;) My other favorite composers.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 30, 2008, 11:05:02 PM
The BBC televised the Proms Concert anniversary tribute last night. I just caught Symphony 9. It may be available on their podplayer (or whatever it's called for a week)

As for Symphony No 6, Michael Kennedy speculates that it might be a tribute to Holst. Certainly, there are echoes of Holst's Egdon Heath and Saturn and Neptune from The Planets. I've always wondered if VW heard Honegger's Liturgique Symphony, which is a stormy contemporaneous work which also ends with a hushed epilogue (although the VW is much bleaker, without a redemptive bird song at the end), Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem and the Moeran Symphony have also been cited as possible influences. In VW's own works, there are echoes of No 6 in the earlier String Quartet No 2, Job, the Piano Concerto and some of the Film Music (ie "Dead Man's Kit" from Story of a Flemish Farm.) None of this is to take away the striking originality of Symphony 6.

An interesting book on VW is "Vaughan Williams in Perspective" (ed. Lewis Foreman) and there is a good chapter called "Vaughan Williams as a writer on Music" in a book called "Romanticism and Melody" by George Colerick, a book which I'd strongly recommend (it's in paperback). The Collected Letters of VW have just been published, but it's an (£90) expensive hardback. I got it with a big reduction through the VW Society, so, if anyone wants me to look anything up in it I will be happy to do so.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2008, 11:12:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 30, 2008, 11:05:02 PM
The BBC televised the Proms Concert anniversary tribute last night. I just caught Symphony 9. It may be available on their podplayer (or whatever it's called for a week)

But only for UK residents.  :'(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 30, 2008, 11:22:13 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 30, 2008, 11:12:01 PM
But only for UK residents.  :'(

Yes, sorry about that Johan, but I did a DVD copy of Symphony No 9. If you want a copy let me know.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 11:45:11 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 05:55:28 PM
I said more than just influenced, not lifted. Please don't twist my words.

I wasn't trying to twist your words, I merely felt this strong inference in them. If you don't want your views misrepresented, then it's best not to leave such darkly suggestive phrases as 'a lot of the material is more than just "influenced" ' hanging around!  ;D I still think that the most obvious reading of this phrase implies that the unconsciousness of influence has been superceded by the consciousness of copying. Which = lifting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 11:52:50 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 06:04:47 PM
I actually thik that's quite interesting, and something to think about. It will definitely be a while anyway before I form more of an actual own opinion than these first impressions I shared here.

Glad you think so, and also glad you are keeping an open mind on VW. Not, as you may think, because I'm a particularly avid fan of his - actually, I love a lot of his music and think that he attained a fascinating and unique style, but he's not a main area of interest for me and I know nothing about him compared to others on this thread. No, I'm simply pleased that you're keeping an open mind because he is worth discovering, he does offer real rewards and insights to the listener. if possible, I would suggest that you take it on trust from those here who know their VW that he's worth it, and that he's an original, and try not to hear him 'in terms of' other composers* - an understandable habit, which we probably all share when listening to a new-to-us composer, but not really a helpful one.

*as I said before, no one will deny that other composers influenced VW in small ways, just as even the greatest composer bears traces of others, but that's not really important in the appreciation of his music. If, listening to La Mer for the first time, I'd got stuck on the fact that it reminded me of Franck in some ways, and had allowed that to inform my image of the composer, it would have somewhat inhibited my appreciation of his originality.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 31, 2008, 12:06:24 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 11:52:50 PM
Glad you think so, and also glad you are keeping an open mind on VW. Not, as you may think, because I'm a particularly avid fan of his - actually, I love a lot of his music and think that he attained a fascinating and unique style, but he's not a main area of interest for me and I know nothing about him compared to others on this thread. No, I'm simply pleased that you're keeping an open mind because he is worth discovering, he does offer real rewards and insights to the listener. if possible, I would suggest that you take it on trust from those here who know their VW that he's worth it, and that he's an original, and try not to hear him 'in terms of' other composers - an understandable habit, which we probably all share when listening to a new-to-use composer, but not really a helpful one.

Not everything stylistically copied or imitated is directly "lifted". It's not that simple. It's not either "unconsciously" influenced (which I find very strange, since one can be very consciously influenced and still process the influences to arrive at original forms of expression) or, as the only alternative, consciously "lifted". There are many stages in between.
And conscious copying or quoting can also be original in a way if the context is.


Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 11:52:50 PM
Glad you think so, and also glad you are keeping an open mind on VW. Not, as you may think, because I'm a particularly avid fan of his - actually, I love a lot of his music and think that he attained a fascinating and unique style, but he's not a main area of interest for me and I know nothing about him compared to others on this thread. No, I'm simply pleased that you're keeping an open mind because he is worth discovering, he does offer real rewards and insights to the listener. if possible, I would suggest that you take it on trust from those here who know their VW that he's worth it, and that he's an original, and try not to hear him 'in terms of' other composers - an understandable habit, which we probably all share when listening to a new-to-use composer, but not really a helpful one.

I don't have that habit. At all. I am actually looking for and hoping for new and unheard styles of music when I discover new repertoire. Often, when I hear music that I don't connect with but that I notice has interesting elements that might take time or another mindset or mood to appreciate, I set the music aside and return to it at some other point. That usually works well.
But so far, I have to say that with the exception of the fairly original and well crafted Tallis Fantasia, what I have heard does not make me very interested and curious at all. I listened to the London Symphony and the 9th in the meantime, and it's basically the same disjointed, rambling, all-over-the-place throwing in of musical ideas and materials that I have heard in other works. I find the ending of the 9th symphony laughable, like a bad joke, a Schickele-type parody - but my feeling is that it is supposed to be somehow "grand". He does come up with some interesting ideas and sounds, but I don't see the scope of symphonic music in that at all. But there is a lot of grand gesturing going on.
I prefer composers who actually have some degree of self-criticism and who don't think that everything they come up with has to go on the page. Composers who develop and refine and concentrate their material. Have you ever heard the first version of Sibelius' 5th? It has most of the great musical ideas that the revised version has, plus a lot of hollow musical filler material. Then Sibelius withdrew the symphony and boiled it down to the concise but truly epic masterwork it now is. I don't have that sense of compelling musical argument when I listen to VW's music at all. There are lots of nice sounds, and some interesting phrase turns here and there, and a lot of random stuff in between.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 31, 2008, 12:29:06 AM
 I think that you are either tuned in to the Vaughan Williams idiom (whatever that is) or you are not. If you are, you can look forward to a life time of musical discovery; if not, you will, no doubt, find the same thing elsewhere. I think that it's as simple as that, but I always try to keep an open mind to composers whose music has hitherto eluded me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 31, 2008, 12:41:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 31, 2008, 12:29:06 AM
I think that you are either tuned in to the Vaughan Williams idiom (whatever that is)

Yes, whatever that is. What had made me interested was when I asked the question, what is that actually, and I was surprised by how little real feedback that question triggered. I think there isn't much of a special "idiom" there, just a lot of collected musical material. There are many composers with wildly varying styles whose music immediately makes a striking impression, one way or another. This music leaves me with the feeling that in order to get 5 minutes worth of really good material, I have to sit through 45 minutes of musical blabla. I rarely ever have that feeling with other music, even music that doesn't appeal to me or that I don't "get".

The funny thing is, I normally don't get into comparing music and composers as much as most people do (see the many replies here who inferred comparisons I would never have thought of, and, of course, all the endless threads and polls here, like "Wagner or Wiener Schnitzel"?). I think I get a lot of the historical connections and vectors of influences which connect all musical styles, but when I listen to this music, I have the feeling a lot that I have heard something similar before, but more to the point and more distinct than what I am hearing right now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 31, 2008, 04:53:05 AM
It helps to remind one that M forever admires Mahler, a composer where you usually get zero minutes worth of really good material and you have to sit through 80 minutes of blabla - made worse by that it's 80 minutes of navel-gazing blabla.  ;D

That may be why RVW called Mahler "a tolerable imitation of a composer" whose notes always sounded "painfully right". Or, that Mahler keeps milking for emotional climaxes (by which I mean facile orchestral bonanzas) every two to three seconds, instead of reserving them for the places they can have maximum impact, like RVW usually does.  :)

See, I'm not into comparing composers either. Certainly not with M forver, who should keep busy doing Aufstrich und Abstrich.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 05:06:31 AM
Well, I don't see a need to denigrate Mahler in order to praise VW, but I do think that M's use of the term 'blabla' is both unnecessary and incorrect! I've rarely heard full-length symphonies as tightly-knit as VW 4-6, and there's certainly no hint of diffuseness in any of them. Every note counts, every phrase means something and also leads you somewhere else equally vital - and that's why, listening to them, I always feel that these symphonies are a lot shorter than they actually are. That's something VW does share with Nielsen and Sibelius, I think.

Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 12:41:49 AM
Yes, whatever that is. What had made me interested was when I asked the question, what is that actually, and I was surprised by how little real feedback that question triggered.

I have a feeling you might have been hoist by your own petard here, though. I for one wasn't sure how seriously to take your request for information on the VW idiom*, and in any case, I thought you meant performance idiom (which I couldn't possibly talk about interestingly) not the idiom of the notes themselves, which is what you're talking about here.   

The Vaughan Williams idiom, though, seems to me one of the most remarkably unified and self-sufficient in 20th century music. He doesn't quite achieve the degree of individuality that (say) Janacek did, perhaps, but he's darned close to it. A few traits, in the order they occur to me:

His harmony is distinctively his - predominantly triadic, not chromatic, but with the triads themselves frequently related by false-relation (who did this before him? where did he get it from? rhetorical questions both, because it seems clear that this sound, which influenced so many later composers, was Vaughan Williams' own). These false-relations have a force all of their own, too, as I indicated yesterday.

He uses different modes with great consistency - the Phrygian for this sort of music, the Mixolydian for that, and so on. And he uses diatonicism, pentatonicism and chromaticism with the same 'rightness'. There is as much logic in his use of the various modes as there is in (say) Bruckner's use of major and minor (I'm not comparing in any other respect, and Bruckner's name is pulled at random), and so the modes and their relationships take on a force equivalent to that between major and minor in earlier music. Hear that Phrygian pull at the beginning of the 9th, and its continuation into the parallel chord motive of the saxophones? That dark, ominous use of the Phrygian semitone is treated with great logicality, going to to inflect/infect the harmony throughout the movement, leading to constant major-minor ambiguities that likewise inflect/infect the music even when it moves into aeolian, major and lydian modes. This is wonderful symphonic thinking, a perfect reconciliation of two things - modality and development - that really oughtn't go together!

In a related area, he has a great sensitivity to the expressive power and implication of interval - perfect fourths and fifths to conjure purity, nature, Godliness; tritones etc for negativity, destruction, hellishness. He's hardly alone in this, of course, but what is striking is that he is remarkably consistent and coherent in his writing in this respect, so that his music carries an extraordinarily strong moral punch, if I can put it that way. (To my mind, only Nielsen really comes close to achieving the same kind of moral force, and he does so in similar ways but with less shocking consistency). So, if you look at the opening of the London Symphony you will find that 95% of all intervals, chordal or melodic, are perfect fourth, perfect fifth and major second (which is the difference between the two). These (rather than the major triad) set the moral tone of the symphony's 'bedrock' so that all chromatic inflections that happen after a minute or two are heard as slight moral disturbances, and the entrance of the Allegro - essentially chromatically descending minor triads with bitonal implications - is really a cataclysm. Compare this use of the 'pure' intervals to the demonic Scherzo of the 6th, where for large stretches of the music you will find scarcely anything that isn't tritone or minor second - quite audibly, the movement is monomaniacally fixated on this interval, and it infects the moral tone thoroughly. This kind of intervallic consistency, whatever it 'means', is undoubtedly a VW fingerprint.

In VW texture means something - polyphony, homophony, monody all play a role in the musical argument, not just in themselves but (again) because of their implications. Homophony - which emphasizes time, the movement from place to place - is often 'human' in implication, perhaps hymnic (Tallis Fantasia), perhaps spiritual (Mass for unaccompanied chorus - 'et homo factus est') etc. etc. etc.

VW's orchestration isn't dazzling in a Straussian or Mahlerian way. But again he has an instinctive feeling for the moral tone of an instrument, which means we may get one-offs - like the flugelhorn and the trio of saxes in in the 9th - or instrumental images that are consistent throughout his music. That solo violin of The Lark Ascending actually appears in countless places, and it always seems to carry something of the same tone, of purity and goodness. In the 9th it is the solo violin's pained oscillations between major and minor that usher in some sort of resolution; in the Tallis Fantasia or the Serenade to Music (pure VW both, start to finish) it is the solo violin which puts a seal on things, Lark-like.

And so on and on - these are just some of the things which make up the VW idiom....

* wasn't sure because there was obviously antagonism between you and the one you originally asked about the issue and because, simply going by your posting history, I'm afraid there's always the suspicion that you're simply angling for an argument. And I'm still not sure quite how seriously you want the answer to that question either, because although you've covered all your bases very well ('I've listened to this and this; 'I've asked the question in all seriousness') I can't help but be aware of the way you've ratcheted up the tone of your 'I'm not impressed' language in the last few posts. Again, only going by your past history, this leaves me with the feeling that what you're really interested in doing is getting a rise out of others. I'm very sorry if this isn't the case, and I hope it isn't - but it's not my fault if it's the impression I've got, despite my attempts to take your request for information about VW at face value. (If I wasn't making that attempt, I wouldn't be taking the time to write lengthy posts like this)

Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 12:41:49 AMI think there isn't much of a special "idiom" there, just a lot of collected musical material. There are many composers with wildly varying styles whose music immediately makes a striking impression, one way or another. This music leaves me with the feeling that in order to get 5 minutes worth of really good material, I have to sit through 45 minutes of musical blabla. I rarely ever have that feeling with other music, even music that doesn't appeal to me or that I don't "get".

The funny thing is, I normally don't get into comparing music and composers as much as most people do (see the many replies here who inferred comparisons I would never have thought of, and, of course, all the endless threads and polls here, like "Wagner or Wiener Schnitzel"?). I think I get a lot of the historical connections and vectors of influences which connect all musical styles, but when I listen to this music, I have the feeling a lot that I have heard something similar before, but more to the point and more distinct than what I am hearing right now.

Yes, and you said you'd been most impressed by the Tallis Fantasia, which you called 'fairly original', implying that even this still has debts. I'd be interested to know what they are, though, outside the English Renaissance music which self-evidently lies behind the piece. Seems to me that nothing like the Tallis Fantasia had been written before - though plenty of pieces like it were written afterwards! The Tallis Fantasia, FWIW and IMO, distills everything that is most personal to VW into one space - the parallel chords in false relation, modality, metrically-fixed homophony and winged, rhythmically-free monody, the use of solo violin which is special to VW, the link between cloister and field. Apart from the Tallis tune itself, I can't see a note in it that derives from anyone else. This piece alone is proof that VW was an extraordinary musical thinker
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 31, 2008, 05:17:09 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 05:06:31 AM
* wasn't sure because there was obviously antagonism between you and the one you originally asked about the issue and because, simply going by your posting history, I'm afraid there's always the suspicion that you're simply angling for an argument.

Bull's eye. Of course I myself would never do that.  0:)

And I wasn't denigrating Mahler, just pointing out he's pompous and hollow, the exact opposite of RVW.  ;D

Quote(If I wasn't making that attempt, I wouldn't be taking the time to write lengthy posts like this)

And you're covering some valid bases very well. But, alas, it'll be for naught - as far as M forever is concerned. You might convince some others tough, so it's definitely worth the effort.

Right about 4-6, and when RVW realized there was a certain hint of diffuseness about the original version of the London Symphony (a great impressionistic work it is), he did the right thing - cut the rot out. Kind of great we have the Hickox recording to prove RVW was correct.

Thomas

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on August 31, 2008, 05:32:48 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 31, 2008, 05:17:09 AM
I wasn't denigrating Mahler, just pointing out he's pompous and hollow, the exact opposite of RVW.  ;D
I trust the smiley indicates that the irony here is intentional...?  Your ridiculous claim is more likely to get a rise out of Mahler fanboys on a Mahler thread. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 31, 2008, 05:37:07 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 31, 2008, 05:32:48 AM
I trust the smiley indicates that the irony here is intentional...?  Your ridiculous claim is more likely to get a rise out of Mahler fanboys on a Mahler thread. 

Only trying to get a rise out of the Mahler fanboy around here.

... Oops!

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2008, 05:54:54 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 03:20:57 PM
Ernie's correct about this, I think. VW's music is completely different in this respect. Formally speaking, his symphonism is not like Mahler's. But that is because he thoroughly understood what he was doing, and knew that the roots of his style implied formal structures unlike Germanic models. Which is really what all the below is about, too:

First, remember that I don't claim that VW made enormous advances for the general state of future music.  I'm not going to make extravagant claims that he invented x or was the first to do y, where x and y are major features of music after him - but then, not many composers did. VW's discoveries are small-scale, but profound, and influenced the generation of British composers who followed him - in fact, they made this music possible. The following is an attempt to explain something of what I mean, but, as you can see, it's wordy. The trouble with these subtle innovations is that they don't fit into easy definitions! I quickly stop saying what VW's contribution was, and then go on to expound upon the hows and whys. But then I expect you appreciate more rather than less.

IMO perhaps the most important thing VW did was to understand the aesthetic or metaphysical implications of modality, and therefore how it could be integrated into (for instance) symphonic structures. In the finest VW modality isn't decorative, or a surface harmonic feature - it becomes structural in the deepest sense. It and its implications are thoroughly understood. The book by Mellers which I mentioned has a great deal to say on this issue, which helped me to realise quite how profoundly 'right' VW's treatment of modality, diatonicism and chromaticism is - but I have no idea how conscious VW was of the sort of things Mellers postulates. Possibly a great deal; possible not at all.

Mellers links the modality of the English Renaissance (c.f. the Tallis portions of the Tallis Fantasia) and of English folk music (c.f the solo viola tune that unfolds in the centre of the Tallis Fantasia) to the world of those pre-Enlightenment, pre-Enclosure times: the lack of sharpened leading notes etc leads to a floating music, a music in which the functional, time-directed progress from Chord A to Chord B of diatonicism is on the contrary left unemphasized. Modality, being thus relatively non-directional, is not ideally suited to the teleology of the traditional symphony. Which is why, I suppose, modality in most pre-VW symphonies is decorative rather than operational at a deeper level.

Mellers views VW as a 'double man', one caught between various postions - urban+rural, Christian+agnostic etc. - and this duality is clear in the way 'timeless' modality confronts 'teleological' diatonicism, most obviously in the sweet-painful clash of the false relation. As you know, traditional harmony explains this as a clash between two forms of a note - say, C and C# - when two lines following the rules of voice-leading but moving in contrary directions happen to contradict each other. Mellers, though, takes this a step further - the pain of the false relation derives from this metaphysical clash of types: the ancient and freely-floating (rural...) and the modern and directed (urban...)

Well, you might think that's all a load of crap, and you may be right, though I think it (as Mellers writes about it, anyway) is one of the most penetrating bits of music writing I've read. And of course, as I said, VW may have thought no such thing anyway - if you don't agree, try not to tar him with the brush you want to apply to Mellers! But the point is that VW's music does operate with this kind of thing, this duality between modality and diatonicism, with all that entails, in the background. His 5th symphony - the echt-VW symphony, IMO - is a beautiful example. We had a great discussion of it starting here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6037.msg144416.html#msg144416) on an old VW thread - read on a page or two to read more about Mellers' theory. I managed to describe it a bit more lucidly back then! In any case, what I said about the 5th symphony then was the following - I didn't play up the modality issue back then particularly because I wasn't having this discussion with you!:

Well, now, this deep connection between the behaviour of notes and of voice-leading and the aesthetics underpinning the music is truly rare, I think. A composer who is able to understand the full implications, structural and aesthetic, of the harmony and modality he uses, whether consciously or subconsciously, has discovered something of value, and I think this is perhaps VW's main 'discovery', if you like. Certainly, as I said, it's impossible to imagine so much later British music without this discovery. Along with a host of smaller figures, Tippett, to speak of a major figure, is a true inheritor of this aspect of VW's writing.

One of the most enjoyable and rewarding posts to grace the Veranda, IMO. Thanks, Luke.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2008, 05:56:47 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 05:06:31 AM
Well, I don't see a need to denigrate Mahler in order to praise VW, but I do think that M's use of the term 'blabla' is both unnecessary and incorrect! I've rarely heard full-length symphonies as tightly-knit as VW 4-6, and there's certainly no hint of diffuseness in any of them. Every note counts, every phrase means something and also leads you somewhere else equally vital - and that's why, listening to them, I always feel that these symphonies are a lot shorter than they actually are. That's something VW does share with Nielsen and Sibelius, I think.

Hear, hear.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on August 31, 2008, 05:59:33 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 31, 2008, 05:37:07 AM
Only trying to get a rise out of the Mahler fanboy around here.

... Oops!
Your sense of humor is so dry, Thomas, that it goes over the heads of many.  Wit, however, must hit its target, and in this case you've missed by a mile.  Nice try, though.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 31, 2008, 06:16:21 AM
Admirable post, Luke. You put the case very well. Anyone expecting the Beethovenian-Brahmsian-Mahlerian logic will be disappointed, because Vaughan Williams thinks outside the Austro-German box, achieving his own brand of symphonic coherence. But to appreciate this, you must be attuned to him. If you don't like a composer, no amount of intelligent elucidation will convince you of his qualities.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 06:23:55 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 12:06:24 AM
I find the ending of the 9th symphony laughable, like a bad joke, a Schickele-type parody - but my feeling is that it is supposed to be somehow "grand".

Just to pick up on this - that would show a surprising lack of perceptiveness, I'd say, though the type of mishearing this suggests does help to show why you're not connecting with VW. It's pretty clear to me, in all sorts of ways, that the end of # 9 is anything but grand. There is a long-striven for E major chord, fff, yes - but it's arrived at in a deliberately perfunctory manner, imposed forcibly on the Phrygian lines preceding it and still undercut by the baleful Phrygian saxophones from the first movement. The chord tries again and again to assert itself, but eventually it fades away. I find it an extraordinary ending, the way these two harmonic types cut across each other along with - as I said earlier - the moral implications they both hold. True symphonism, this. It's comparable to Mahler 6, in a way - not in specifics, but in the way a modal dialectic present throughout the symphony finally becomes the shaping force for the closing cadence.

Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 12:06:24 AM
I prefer composers who actually have some degree of self-criticism and who don't think that everything they come up with has to go on the page. Composers who develop and refine and concentrate their material. Have you ever heard the first version of Sibelius' 5th? It has most of the great musical ideas that the revised version has, plus a lot of hollow musical filler material. Then Sibelius withdrew the symphony and boiled it down to the concise but truly epic masterwork it now is. I don't have that sense of compelling musical argument when I listen to VW's music at all. There are lots of nice sounds, and some interesting phrase turns here and there, and a lot of random stuff in between.

As others have hinted, this Sibelian refining process was precisely followed by VW too - and is audible in the recording of the original version of the London Symphony. To create the final form, VW ruthlessly cut out pages of beautiful music, which tends to argue against your vision of someone who simply strung lots of pretty stuff together without self-criticism.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on August 31, 2008, 06:38:03 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 06:23:55 AM
Just to pick up on this - that would show a surprising lack of perceptiveness, I'd say, though the type of mishearing this suggests does help to show why you're not connecting with VW. It's pretty clear to me, in all sorts of ways, that the end of # 9 is anything but grand. There is a long-striven for E major chord, fff, yes - but it's arrived at in a deliberately perfunctory manner, imposed forcibly on the Phrygian lines preceding it and still undercut by the baleful Phrygian saxophones from the first movement. The chord tries again and again to assert itself, but eventually it fades away. I find it an extraordinary ending,

I'll say. Very haunting and unsettling. A kind of "let's put on a happy face for the camera" in which all manner of doubts and uncertainties still make themselves apparent. The tension of the saxophones' f minor persisting as the orchestra swells on the E major produces major goosebumps on me.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on August 31, 2008, 06:43:26 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 30, 2008, 03:20:57 PM

the sweet-painful clash of the false relation. As you know, traditional harmony explains this as a clash between two forms of a note - say, C and C# - when two lines following the rules of voice-leading but moving in contrary directions happen to contradict each other.

a phenomenon which is particularly characteristic of English Renaissance music. RVW would have been especially keen to pick up on that.

I think Mellers has a special talent for making anything he talks about sound unbearbly pompous, but I don't let him affect my reaction to RVW.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 06:49:31 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on August 31, 2008, 06:43:26 AM
a phenomenon which is particularly characteristic of English Renaissance music. RVW would have been especially keen to pick up on that.

Absolultely. This is the whole background to Mellers' point. He sees in this Renaissance polyphony the tug between the ancient, 'timeless' + medieval and the incipient, temporal tonal harmony of modern man. There is no doubt that the false relation has a very special effect, hence the adjectives usually lavished on it ('bittersweet', 'biting' etc.) - it is so much more than simply a minor second or major seventh or minor ninth, even though in strict harmonic terms that is all it is. AFAIK no one before Mellers has satisfactorily explained why its effect is so much more than its simple theoretical explanation. But once I'd read him, I realised - 'yes, that's precisely how I experience it - that the clash between eagerly, onwards-pushing sharpened leading note and downwards floating flattened one really does encapsulate a clash of something much bigger.' What VW did, in general terms, was to turn this into something bigger, more complex, more tortured, more relevant; more specifically he also applied the principle to chords as well as to individual lines.

Quote from: Mark G. Simon on August 31, 2008, 06:43:26 AMI think Mellers has a special talent for making anything he talks about sound unbearbly pompous, but I don't let him affect my reaction to RVW.

There is that danger, and I think it's because he tends to talk in abstractions with great big Capital Letters all over the place - Godly, Heavenly, Devilish, Hellish, Edenic etc. etc. I know other people who've reacted negatively to this too. But it's never bothered me - I've always thought his fundamental theses are so penetrating and convincing that such use of language doesn't matter. And in any case, he's dealing with big concepts, and it's important that the reader understands what concrete significance they have in his argument. The 'Capitals' certainly serve to make this argument much clearer than it otherwise would be.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 31, 2008, 07:10:57 AM
Breathtaking series of exposés, Luke.

Never since I (too) accidentally read Mellers' book, did I see such an insightful analysis of RVW's style. You may not convince the odd Teuton here, but your argument is very helpful for RVW's admirers, who know quite well what they love and how unique his voice actually is.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 07:16:32 AM
You're very kind. Though as I said earlier, and I meant it, I know nothing about VW compared to some here - not most of the minor pieces, not many of the details of biography. I know that most of what I've said comes from elsewhere - and everything else probably does too!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 31, 2008, 07:18:54 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 05:06:31 AM


He uses different modes with great consistency - the Phrygian for this sort of music, the Mixolydian for that, and so on. And he uses diatonicism, pentatonicism and chromaticism with the same 'rightness'. There is as much logic in his use of the various modes as there is in (say) Bruckner's use of major and minor (I'm not comparing in any other respect, and Bruckner's name is pulled at random), and so the modes and their relationships take on a force equivalent to that between major and minor in earlier music. Hear that Phrygian pull at the beginning of the 9th, and its continuation into the parallel chord motive of the saxophones? That dark, ominous use of the Phrygian semitone is treated with great logicality, going to to inflect/infect the harmony throughout the movement, leading to constant major-minor ambiguities that likewise inflect/infect the music even when it moves into aeolian, major and lydian modes. This is wonderful symphonic thinking, a perfect reconciliation of two things - modality and development - that really oughtn't go together!


    Tremendous posts , Luke. I wish I could read them as well as you write them.

   And this "rightness", because it belongs to RVW and not to the main line of tonal development, will always be contested to an even greater extent than other composers, at least outside the avant-garde. In fact, I think this shows that it isn't just the avant-garde that raises the question of how to judge music that doesn't exist comfortably within a framework.

   I think I'd better stay away from Mellers, and see if I can find the Kennedy book and try harder this time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 07:42:24 AM
Quote from: drogulus on August 31, 2008, 07:18:54 AM
    And this "rightness", because it belongs to RVW and not to the main line of tonal development, will always be contested to an even greater extent than other composers, at least outside the avant-garde. In fact, I think this shows that it isn't just the avant-garde that raises the question of how to judge music that doesn't exist comfortably within a framework.

I think there's a lot to this. And I'm probably not alone in thinking 'Havergal Brian' when I read it! Though of course there are many, many others...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on August 31, 2008, 07:43:42 AM
Quote from: drogulus on August 31, 2008, 07:18:54 AM
    Tremendous posts , Luke. I wish I could read them as well as you write them.
Yes, thank you so much, Luke, for taking the time to offer these thoughtful and very helpful analyses.  I will try to digest the points you make and keep them in mind the next time I listen to RVW, a composer whom I like but haven't really understood yet, even in my limited, non-expert, and far-from-musically-sophisticated way.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 31, 2008, 07:45:26 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 07:42:24 AM
I think there's a lot to this. And I'm probably not alone in thinking 'Havergal Brian' when I read it!

No, you're not...  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 07:48:18 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 31, 2008, 07:43:42 AM
Yes, thank you so much, Luke, for taking the time to offer these thoughtful and very helpful analyses.  I will try to digest the points you make and keep them in mind the next time I listen to RVW, a composer whom I like but haven't really understood yet, even in my limited, non-expert, and far-from-musically-sophisticated way.

:) A pleasure.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on August 31, 2008, 07:50:26 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 31, 2008, 07:45:26 AM
No, you're not...  ;)
Of course not.  That's the case for Sibelius, Bax, RVW, and so on...in other words, virtually every artist who expresses a truly distinctive voice that expands the framework, whether with party hats and full-page ads in the Times or with somewhat less fanfare and grandiosity.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 08:30:39 AM
Enough talking for today, I just listened to VW 5 (and its erotic counterpart, Flos Campi). My word, what a piece that symphony is - surely VW's most perfect symphony, no? No more theory or metaphysics for now - it's just damned beautiful, compelling, lucid, perfectly imagined and perfectly formed. And - let's get down to brass tacks - is that not one of the most sublime slow movements ever composed!?  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 09:06:57 AM
BTW, that movement - and the rest of the symphony - prominently feature the same figure that M heard in the 6th as being derived from Janacek's Sinfonietta, but which I think is simply a common musical figure (as I pointed out, found in exactly the same form as in the Janacek in Mozart K387). It's simply a descending 2nd followed by a descending 3rd, and it's one of the most common melodic shapes in many folk musics, found over and over in many folk-music-influenced composers even up to Ligeti's Violin Concerto (and it's a shape which I'm well aware is a constantly recurring one in my own music). I'd never really concentrated on it in VW until now, but it's clearly a vital shape in his music too - it's the opening of the Tallis Fantasia, it's the violin's opening shape in the 5th, which haunts the piece throughout, become by turns demonic and tortured in the first movement's development and in the central movements, it and its variants are all through Flos Campi, it's the shape into which those saxophone chords break in the 9th (and which expand throughout the orchestra), and of course it's a dominant feature of the 6th, from the very first bar - and these, of course, are just the pieces I've been thinking about today. The point being, something that on one's first listen to a composer may seem to come from somewhere else turns out to be an integral feature, that runs through all that composer's music as if part of its DNA.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 31, 2008, 10:50:22 AM
Quote from: drogulus on August 31, 2008, 07:18:54 AM
    I think I'd better stay away from Mellors, and see if I can find the Kennedy book and try harder this time.

I read the Mellers 14 years ago right after the Kennedy, which is very hands-on and perceptive. After that, the Mellers (we're talking about the ''Vision of Albion'' thingee here?) seemed like one big waffle, very repetitive in its effort to drive home very few points by "examining" a lot of different works.

Picked up two new books on RVW in London this time,

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qoZ4sxvsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511664ZZY9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

"Vaughan Williams on Music", naturally, is very fragmented - sometimes the comments on a certain subject consist of just a couple of lines, my favorite being his comment on the passing of Schoenberg:

"Schoenberg meant nothing to me. But as he meant a lot to a lot of other people I daresay it's all my fault."


The analyses on folk music, some British composers, Strauss and Brahms etc. are intriguing.

Haven't got around to the other one yet. Too busy devouring Bukowski crudities.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 11:07:30 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 31, 2008, 10:50:22 AM
I read the Mellers 14 years ago right after the Kennedy, which is very hands-on and perceptive. After that, the Mellers (we're talking about the ''Vision of Albion'' thingee here?) seemed like one big waffle, very repetitive in its effort to drive home very few points by "examining" a lot of different works.

That may well be true - I'm certainly aware of Mellers' idiosyncrasies, and they exist not just in this book but in his others too. I just think that those 'very few points' are vital and insightful, and left unsaid or insufficiently emphasized by others. VW's music is the perfect music for Mellers' approach, because the composer obviously had the same kind of sensitivity to nuances of interval, key, mode and metre as Mellers himself does, and he is also located in the midst of social and historical trends which Mellers (above all a social historian of music) is very alive to. Anyway, enough about Mellers!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on August 31, 2008, 12:51:10 PM


     That's right, it's Mellers, not Mellors.  :-[

     



     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 31, 2008, 07:41:04 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2008, 02:47:57 PM
Generally though, symphonies 4-6 are considered the greatest.

8)

Barbirolli's EMI recording of the 5th is supposed to be The Best, but I haven't heard it.

For the 6th, Andrew Davis's recording has received much praise (it's the only one of his cycle that did).


Re the London symphony, one reason I haven't quite taken to it is the " 'ave a banana" musical quote in the first movement (reminding me of comedian Bill Bailey's skit on the Cockney origins of much classical music).

For the 9th, I've only heard Previn thus far, and found it far from satisfactory. He doesn't seem to have a grip on the rhetorical style needed here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on August 31, 2008, 09:48:40 PM
In respomse to reading some of the posts here, I have ordered a full cycle of the symphonies. At present I only have four of them. So, thanks, especialy to Luke, for firing my interest. I will go over some of the posts again when I can listen to specific symphonies.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 31, 2008, 10:26:46 PM
Quote from: knight on August 31, 2008, 09:48:40 PM
I have ordered a full cycle of the symphonies.

That's very provocative.... Which cycle, may we ask?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on August 31, 2008, 10:36:57 PM
I have ordered the Previn set. I can see they all have their ups and downs, but it has plenty of good points according to what I read.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on August 31, 2008, 11:09:30 PM
Quote from: knight on August 31, 2008, 10:36:57 PMI can see they all have their ... downs

Handley's doesn't.   $:)

The Previn set has a fine Sea Symphony, arguably the "best" Pastoral (a.o.t. he and Boult are the only ones that get the Moderato opening right), a great Antartica. I'm less convinced his 4th and 6th still make the grade, but the "London" and 5th are both good, too.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PM
Thanks for all the detailed replies. I didn't have time to read through all of them, however, the first reply to my last post by sound67, a self-declared VW expert, already confirmed what I had suspected, namely that VW's music can apparently only be appreciated by comparing it to more famous composers of his era, and putting these down. But I am not interested in that. I am only interested in music which stands on its own. Apparently, VW's music doesn't.
According to several people here, it only gains status as some kind of anti-thesis to composers like Mahler and Strauss, and others. Funny, I am not even into Mahler that much right now, in fact, I have been tired of and taking a break from his music for a long time now and wanted to explore music which is radically different and which offers me contrasting perspectives on how musical material can be sourced, used, and developed to make coherent, relevant statements which stand on their own. That does not seem to be the case here with VW. According to sound67, being a trained musician also stands in the way of appreciating his music. I do not know of any other composer where that is the case. In fact, understanding music from the point of view of a trained musician usually enhances enjoyment of just about any kind of musical style. Since that is not the case here, I think I will just pass and spend my time better exploring the music of more relevant composers than this marginal English phenomenon, like VW's teacher Ravel from whom I have never heard a single bar of music, be it orchestral, chamber music, or songs, which did not deeply fascinate and intrigue  me. The only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence? Why do even English musicians prefer to perform the music of such composers that their local heroes, like VW, get compared to by the "experts"? Why is his music performed far less even in England than any given composer - and I mean any, even the more marginal figues included - from the standard canon of French - German - Austrian - Czech - Russian composers? Wy does it not stand on its own, but only as a negative comparison to these by pseudo-intellectuals?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on August 31, 2008, 11:29:32 PM
Another thank you here Luke - truly great posts... I'm going to have to listen through Symphonies 3-6 again.

You say that the fifth is his most perfect, but I'm sure you've said that the sixth represents the pinnacle of his Symphonic thinking too. I guess this could be a subtle difference.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on August 31, 2008, 11:36:49 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PM
Thanks for all the detailed replies. I didn't have time to read through all of them, however, the first reply to my last post by sound67, a self-declared VW expert, already confirmed what I had suspected, namely that VW's music can apparently only be appreciated by comparing it to more famous composers of his era, and putting these down. But I am not interested in that. I am only interested in music which stands on its own. Apparently, VW's music doesn't.
According to several people here, it only gains status as some kind of anti-thesis to composers like Mahler and Strauss, and others. Funny, I am not even into Mahler that much right now, in fact, I have been tired of and taking a break from his music for a long time now and wanted to explore music which is radically different and which offers me contrasting perspectives on how musical material can be sourced, used, and developed to make coherent, relevant statements which stand on their own. That does not seem to be the case here with VW. According to sound67, being a trained musician also stands in the way of appreciating his music. I do not know of any other composer where that is the case. In fact, understanding music from the point of view of a trained musician usually enhances enjoyment of just about any kind of musical style. Since that is not the case here, I think I will just pass and spend my time better exploring the music of more relevant composers than this marginal English phenomenon, like VW's teacher Ravel from whom I have never heard a single bar of music, be it orchestral, chamber music, or songs, which did not deeply fascinate and intrigue  me. The only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence? Why do even English musicians prefer to perform the music of such composers that their local heroes, like VW, get compared to by the "experts"? Why is his music performed far less even in England than any given composer - and I mean any, even the more marginal figues included - from the standard canon of French - German - Austrian - Czech - Russian composers? Wy does it not stand on its own, but only as a negative comparison to these by pseudo-intellectuals?

Please lets cut this crap. This post is just an excuse for you to not really engage with anything serious that has been said - like all of Luke's fantastic posts. sound67's comments were very very obviously a joke, and you treating them as serious and then using this as an excuse to dismiss VW's music is just unbelievably lazy intellectually. It is painfully obvious that everything that Luke said he suspected but hoped you weren't doing is in fact exactly what you are doing here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:48:20 PM
Excusez-moi? Please don't treat sound67 as if his posts are just jokes, he means to be taken very, very seriously, and like I said, that was already enough information for me in this context. Ever since I asked about VW's "idiom" about two weeks ago, most of the posts regarding that were just personal attacks and what you probably would call jokes, so I am convinced now that there isn't really much more to the subject. Like I said, there must be a reason even English musicians treat him as a marginal phenomenon. Maybe it's because he apparently was just a very mediocre composer who gets a little bit elevated by the dire, dire need for English people to have at least one, or one and a half, "great composers"? That his music can apparently not be appreciated on his own, but just by putting more famous composers down confirms to me that there isn't much to appreciate there, unless you adopt that as an intellectual, or rather, pseudo-intellectual, attitude. And again, like I said before, this is the only time I have ever seen somebody say that being a trained musicians is actually an obstacle to enjoying anybody's music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 12:19:04 AM
My favourite recordings:

A Sea Symphony: Boult-Decca, Previn-RCA, Handley-Emi, Daniel-Naxos

A London Symphony: Hickox-Chandos, Wood-Dutton, Barbirolli-EMI, Boult-Decca or EMI

A Pastoral Symphony: Previn-RCA

Symphony No 4: Berglund-EMI, Daniel-Naxos, Thomson-Chandos, Boult-EMI, Mitropolous-Sony

Symphony No 5: Barbirolli-EMI, Koussevitsky-Guild, Vaughan Williams-Somm, Gibson-EMI

Symphony No 6: Boult-Decca, Davis-Warner, Thomson-Chandos, Berglund-EMI, Abravanel-Vanguard/Silvrerline, Haitink-EMI, Stokowsky-Sony

Symphony 7: Barbirolli-EMI, Haitink-EMI

Symphony No 8: Previn-RCA

Symphony No 9: Stokowski-Cala,Thomson-Chandos, Slatkin-RCA, Handley-EMI (for the harps at the end)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 01, 2008, 01:12:44 AM
Ahhh, here we go again. And why wouldn't we ...  0:)

A Sea Symphony: Boult-Decca, Boult-EMI (it always boils down to Boult-only for me)
London Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Haitink-EMI, Handley-EMI-LPO (the earlier one), Arwel-Hughes-ASV, Barbirolli-Dutton
Pastoral Symphony: Boult-Decca, Previn-RCA, Thomson-Chandos
4th Symphony: Berglund-EMI, Thomson-Chandos, Vaughan Williams-Dutton
5th Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI, Hickox-Chandos (his only really fine one), Barbirolli-EMI (not the earlier Barbirolli-Dutton)
6th Symphony: A.Davis-Teldec (HIS only great one), Handley-EMI-RLPO (not the LPO this time), Berglund-EMI (just re-released), Abravanel-Silverline(DVD-A)
Sinfonia Antartica: Barbirolli-EMI, Haitink-EMI, Previn-RCA
8th Symphony: Handley-EMI, Boult-Decca
9th Symphony: Slatkin-RCA, Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI

The Hickox-Chandos "London" of course is a special case. On interpretive grounds, I do not rate it very highly (in a review back then I found it too "Elgarian"), but of course it's a worthwile addition to the RVW discography, if only to prove RVW was right.

700+ replies, closing in on 19,000 page views. Uncle Ralph isn't doing badly for a composer whose music "does not stand on its own"  ;)

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: rickardg on September 01, 2008, 01:55:16 AM
Thanks for posting your pearls, Luke, even if it seems to turn out to be before swines... :-)

Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 08:30:39 AM
Enough talking for today, I just listened to VW 5 (and its erotic counterpart, Flos Campi). My word, what a piece that symphony is - surely VW's most perfect symphony, no? No more theory or metaphysics for now - it's just damned beautiful, compelling, lucid, perfectly imagined and perfectly formed. And - let's get down to brass tacks - is that not one of the most sublime slow movements ever composed!?  ;D ;)

For those that crave theory and metaphysics there is an interesting episode of BBC3 Discovering Music that analyzes VW 5 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/ram/cdmvwilliams5.ram) (link directly to RealAudio file).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 03:23:12 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 01, 2008, 01:12:44 AM
Ahhh, here we go again. And why wouldn't we ...  0:)

A Sea Symphony: Boult-Decca, Boult-EMI (it always boils down to Boult-only for me)
London Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Haitink-EMI, Handley-EMI-LPO (the earlier one), Arwel-Hughes-ASV, Barbirolli-Dutton
Pastoral Symphony: Boult-Decca, Previn-RCA, Thomson-Chandos
4th Symphony: Berglund-EMI, Thomson-Chandos, Vaughan Williams-Dutton
5th Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI, Hickox-Chandos (his only really fine one), Barbirolli-EMI (not the earlier Barbirolli-Dutton)
6th Symphony: A.Davis-Teldec (HIS only great one), Handley-EMI-RLPO (not the LPO this time), Berglund-EMI (just re-released), Abravanel-Silverline(DVD-A)
Sinfonia Antartica: Barbirolli-EMI, Haitink-EMI, Previn-RCA
8th Symphony: Handley-EMI, Boult-Decca
9th Symphony: Slatkin-RCA, Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI

The Hickox-Chandos "London" of course is a special case. On interpretive grounds, I do not rate it very highly (in a review back then I found it too "Elgarian"), but of course it's a worthwile addition to the RVW discography, if only to prove RVW was right.

700+ replies, closing in on 19,000 page views. Uncle Ralph isn't doing badly for a composer whose music "does not stand on its own"  ;)

Thomas

We agree on quite a few and I could have added the earlier Handley London Symphony on EMI. Must listen to the Thomson No 2 and No 4.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 03:41:59 AM
Thanks, M. Against all my better judgement, I took your request for information on VW's idiom seriously, and took the time to wrote you several lengthy posts on it, as well as on trying to correct some of your misunderstandings about the roots of VW's style. But, of course, and as I suspected, it turns out that what I wrote doesn't really fit with the way you wanted this discourse to go, and so you've conveniently disregarded it. Despite your protestations, I suppose it was always clear that you didn't really want a serious, musical reply of this sort, because as long as one was not forthcoming you could continue to go on disingenuously observing how surprised you were that no one could describe VW's idiom for you, and, therefore, you could also continue to imply that VW doesn't actually have such an idiom worth talking about. As indeed, in your last post, where you say:

QuoteEver since I asked about VW's "idiom" about two weeks ago, most of the posts regarding that were just personal attacks and what you probably would call jokes, so I am convinced now that there isn't really much more to the subject.

As I say, convenient, huh?

So, you ignored chose not to read my personal-attack-free, serious, lengthy and musical comments (and others from other people), and instead focussed on a short post by sound67 (because, as you later say yourself, it provides 'already enough information for me in this context' = fits what I want to believe/say better). So, you say:

Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PM
Thanks for all the detailed replies. I didn't have time to read through all of them, however, the first reply to my last post by sound67, a self-declared VW expert, already confirmed what I had suspected, namely that VW's music can apparently only be appreciated by comparing it to more famous composers of his era, and putting these down. But I am not interested in that. I am only interested in music which stands on its own. Apparently, VW's music doesn't.

Again the disingenuousness, again the selective reading of replies to fit your own agenda. You've made clear that you have absolutely no respect for sound67's views, but here you pretend to take them on trust ('a self-declared VW expert' - we can all sense the sarcasm underneath that description) so that you can then extrapolate whatever meaning you want to from it:

Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PM...already confirmed what I had suspected, namely that VW's music can apparently only be appreciated by comparing it to more famous composers of his era, and putting these down. But I am not interested in that. I am only interested in music which stands on its own. Apparently, VW's music doesn't.....According to sound67, being a trained musician also stands in the way of appreciating his music. I do not know of any other composer where that is the case. In fact, understanding music from the point of view of a trained musician usually enhances enjoyment of just about any kind of musical style. Since that is not the case here, I think I will just pass and spend my time better exploring the music of more relevant composers than this marginal English phenomenon

That, of course, is horse shit from first to last; no serious responses on this thread (you know, the ones you chose not to respond to) have said any such thing; nowhere have I (for instance) felt it necessary to put down other composers in order to inflate VW's worth - and responding to sound67 I explicitly said as much. And nowhere have I (for instance) said or implied that being trained interferes with one's ability to appreciate his music.  As you rightly say, training tends only to enhances one's appreciation of a composer, and that was the case with me and VW - the more I knew of his music, the more I respected his achievements. VW stands on his own merits, merits to which your usually admirable ear momentarily seems hilariously (and conveniently for you) deaf. Which, again, suits you, because despite all your protestations to the contrary, I doubt there's a person on this board who believes that you approached this composer with anything like an open mind. You wanted to be able to say ridiculous things about him, and damn it, you're going to find a way to do so no matter what.

And why? The answer's pretty clear to all, I think, in the last words of the previous quote - as your insults grow more general, VW stops being a composer and becomes a 'marginal English phenomenon' - and in the following section of your post:

Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PMThe only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence? Why do even English musicians prefer to perform the music of such composers that their local heroes, like VW, get compared to by the "experts"? Why is his music performed far less even in England than any given composer - and I mean any, even the more marginal figues included - from the standard canon of French - German - Austrian - Czech - Russian composers? Wy does it not stand on its own, but only as a negative comparison to these by pseudo-intellectuals?

Why indeed? If only any of that were the case, you might have a point, but sadly it doesn't, it only reflects your tendency to make anti-British jibes at any opportunity (this one about there being no important British composers has been seen more than once before, I think). I would be very surprised if VW's music is indeed 'performed far less even in England than any given composer - and I mean any, even the more marginal figues included - from the standard canon of French - German - Austrian - Czech - Russian composers'. Having just been through the BBCSO's 2008 programme (I chose them because, thanks to Radio 3, they may well be the most-heard orchestra in the country) it's notable that among the major names VW is performed more than even Beethoven and Mozart, let alone any of the others (it's an anniversary year., so there's some inflation, but not much, I would guess).

As far as England being 'such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence', I simply think a little context is needed. Certainly it's true that in the prior to the 20th century British music was a minor force to say the least, but in the 20th century that simply doesn't hold water any more - where German-speaking composers have rather faded from the scene (major international figures born post-1900 grow scarcer and scarcer - Weill, Stockhausen.....erm, Lachenmann, Hartmann, Rihm....Blacher?) British composers have proved much more fertile - important and influential composers like Birtwistle, Ferneyhough, Finnissy; some of the leading European minimalists; younger figures at the head of the international music scene such as, Benjamin and Ades; and of course the two senior figures, Britten and Tippett at the head of it all.

Of course, the chances are you're just being deliberately provocative, for whatever reason, and you know just as well as every body else does that what you've been spouting here, especially in the last couple of posts, is a pile of crap.  ;D ;) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 01, 2008, 05:40:57 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PMThe only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence?
In your world? I don't know. I like some stuff of VW and Bax pretty much.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2008, 05:47:18 AM
I don't want to waste words on the selectively obtuse, but yours I agree with wholeheartedly, Luke.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 01, 2008, 06:34:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 03:23:12 AM
We agree on quite a few and I could have added the earlier Handley London Symphony on EMI. Must listen to the Thomson No 2 and No 4.

There's a Portugese recording of one of the RVW symphonies that is supposed to be very good, but I keep forgetting which symphony and conducted by whom? Does anybody know?  ???

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 06:38:48 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 01, 2008, 06:34:52 AM
There's a Portugese recording of one of the RVW symphonies that is supposed to be very good, but I keep forgetting which symphony and conducted by whom? Does anybody know?  ???

Thomas

Never heard of this. Sounds really interesting. Do you like Braga Santos? His symphs 1-4 definitely have echoes of Vaughan Williams.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 06:57:35 AM
Quote from: Guido on August 31, 2008, 11:29:32 PM
Another thank you here Luke - truly great posts... I'm going to have to listen through Symphonies 3-6 again.

You say that the fifth is his most perfect, but I'm sure you've said that the sixth represents the pinnacle of his Symphonic thinking too. I guess this could be a subtle difference.

Yes, you're correct in your interpretation of my confused signals! I think the 5th is a 'perfect' symphony - it has lucidity, balance, integration, flow, magnificent material, a marvellous sense of musical symbolism, a compelling spiritual argument clearly expressed in musical (modal, rhythmic, melodic, intervallic, motivic, symbolic, textural, instrumental) terms. I don't think the 6th is perfect in these ways - but that does not imply in any sense that I think it is flawed or could be improved upon. Part of the wonder of the 6th, for me, is its skewed, deliberately imperfect nature - there is so little positive lyricism there, and what there is is found mostly at the beginning, before being subjected to various kinds of batterings and eventual annihilation. A work like that may be perfect, in its own terms, but 'perfect' isn't really the right adjective to describe it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:19:54 AM
For me No 6 is the greatest as it combines the lyricism of No 5 with the violence of No 4, to create an absolutely compelling synthesis. It is also oddly disturbing and compassionate at the same time, which is also part of its greatness. The String Quartet No 2 is an interesting precursor to Symphony No 6.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 07:22:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:19:54 AM
For me No 6 is the greatest as it combines the lyricism of No 5 with the violence of No 4, to create an absolutely compelling synthesis. It is also oddly disturbing and compassionate at the same time, which is also part of its greatness. The String Quartet No 2 is an interesting precursor to Symphony No 6.

I agree - that's why I see the 6th as the culmination of the sequence (rather as Brian 10 is to 8 and 9!). When I use the word 'perfect' of the 5th I'm doing so in a specific way, trying to describe its special qualities. In any case, they are both supremely wonderful symphonies!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2008, 07:24:41 AM
Inspired by this thread I have at last watched Tony Palmer's RVW documentary O thou transcendent (thanks to, lately rather absent, Thom).

All in all I find this an excellent introduction to RVW's life and work. You get a strong sense of the scale of the man's achievement and you cannot but admire him personally, too - a great and eminently sane human being, but touched by the revelatory madness common to all real poets, whether in words or music. My love for both the man and his music has increased markedly.

There is a lot of music in this documentary, which is a joy. Also very nice, for me, was seeing people I have long known only as a name and/or a voice, like Stephen Johnson, Imogen Holst and Evelyn Barbirolli. The one main criticism I have to make is the use of horrific footage to go with some of VW's more tragic and dark utterances. I thought it bordered on the obscene. We don't need graphic instances of human cruelty or suffering to know that Vaughan Williams knew about this, too. It seemed to reduce Vaughan Williams to a sort of Current Affairs composer. A grave mistake.

But, as I said - an excellent introduction. The other, BBC, documentary, The Passions of Vaughan Williams, complements it very well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 01, 2008, 07:28:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 06:38:48 AM
Never heard of this. Sounds really interesting. Do you like Braga Santos? His symphs 1-4 definitely have echoes of Vaughan Williams.

Found it: http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2402

It was discussed on some other board. Never been able to get my hands on it.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 01, 2008, 07:38:22 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 03:41:59 AM
Thanks, M. Against all my better judgement, I took your request for information on VW's idiom seriously...

Yes, that was a mistake, Luke. Thomas' initial reply to M ("Fuck off, you twit"...or words to that effect  ;D ) was the proper response given M's, by now, well-known baiting technique. That he managed to end up blasting not just Thomas but your entire island and its musical culture, history and achievement is, of course, typical of our resident cultural bigot (he's anti-American too).

I've often wondered why he has such a nasty need to put down Americans and Brits. His oft stated assertion that we must feel culturally inferior is laughable in the face of his constant effort to prove Teutonic culture superior in every way. Let's get Freudian: Could it be caused by the circumstances of his childhood and his country's history? I mean, our dads and granddads kicked his dad and granddad's ass not just once, but twice last century  ;D ....and then we occupied his city for nearly half a century. That might give anyone an inferiority complex coupled with a defensive need to put down others while claiming cultural and--dare I say it?--racial superiority for his team. ;D  (I'm allowed to poke fun at Germans because I am one...if not by nationality, by every other criteria, including blood, marriage and residency.)

Your posts weren't in vain though: I haven't read Mellers and I appreciate your distillation of his arguments. Your own defense and explanation of RVW's brilliant and quite unique idiom (obviously M is deaf) is equally thought-provoking and made a good read. Thank you.

Sarge (whose first two classical records purchased were RVW symphonies)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:42:51 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 07:22:59 AM
I agree - that's why I see the 6th as the culmination of the sequence (rather as Brian 10 is to 8 and 9!). When I use the word 'perfect' of the 5th I'm doing so in a specific way, trying to describe its special qualities. In any case, they are both supremely wonderful symphonies!

I agree with what you say about Brian too, although No 8 is probably my favourite. We badly need a professional recording of No 10, which is a magnificent work. I was lucky to find the old Unicorn CD some time back.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 07:49:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:42:51 AM
I agree with what you say about Brian too, although No 8 is probably my favourite.

Mine too! 10 is the conclusion of the triptych, but I've always adored 8 the most. The quintessential Brian, and with his melodic invention at its finest. A startlingly beautiful work. As I said earlier in the thread, I have an obscure feeling that makes an interesting pair with VW 6, in fact. They both feed off these juxtapositions of aggression and lyricism so productively....

Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:42:51 AMWe badly need a professional recording of No 10, which is a magnificent work. I was lucky to find the old Unicorn CD some time back.

Yes, I have that one - that's my old orchestra playing (though before I was born, I hasten to add!). You may well be right - with a good recording, this could be revealed to be 8's equal
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:54:31 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 01, 2008, 07:24:41 AM
Inspired by this thread I have at last watched Tony Palmer's RVW documentary O thou transcendent (thanks to, lately rather absent, Thom).

All in all I find this an excellent introduction to RVW's life and work. You get a strong sense of the scale of the man's achievement and you cannot but admire him personally, too - a great and eminently sane human being, but touched by the revelatory madness common to all real poets, whether in words or music. My love for both the man and his music has increased markedly.

There is a lot of music in this documentary, which is a joy. Also very nice, for me, was seeing people I have long known only as a name and/or a voice, like Stephen Johnson, Imogen Holst and Evelyn Barbirolli. The one main criticism I have to make is the use of horrific footage to go with some of VW's more tragic and dark utterances. I thought it bordered on the obscene. We don't need graphic instances of human cruelty or suffering to know that Vaughan Williams knew about this, too. It seemed to reduce Vaughan Williams to a sort of Current Affairs composer. A grave mistake.

But, as I said - an excellent introduction. The other, BBC, documentary, The Passions of Vaughan Williams, complements it very well.

Interesting views Johan, I totally agree about the grotesquely incongruous newsreel images which were juxtaposed with Symphony 9. They were the least convincing part of the documentary (they could have shown Stonehenge or Salisbury Plain instead, which would have been much more in keeping with the philosophic background to the music.) Even Ken Russell in a rather disappointingly staid TV documentary on Vaughan Williams many years ago (well, there was one good scene of Ken Russell dancing in a disco with Ursula Vaughan Williams- then in her mid 70s-to the music of A London Symphony) handled the 9th Symphony more appropriately and movingly.  There is an entertainingly furious exchange of letters going on at the moment in the Journal of the VW Society over the Palmer documentary. It is not like here, where we all have so much respect for each others' views  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2008, 08:04:15 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 07:49:23 AM
Mine too! 10 is the conclusion, but I've always adored 6 the most.

You mean 8.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 07:49:23 AM
with a good recording, this could be revealed to be 8's equal

No 8 is dark, tense, rich, varied. No 10 is brighter, perhaps less diverse, but seems to do as much, and even more, with less... I know all 32 symphonies almost by heart, and I can't really choose a favourite. There are beauties everywhere.

Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:54:31 AM
Interesting views Johan, I totally agree about the grotesquely incongruous newsreel images which were juxtaposed with Symphony 9.

And with No. 6, too.

QuoteThere is an entertainingly furious exchange of letters going on at the moment in the Journal of the VW Society over the Palmer documentary. It is not like here, where we all have so much respect for each others' views  ;D

Yes, this Forum is blessed.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 08:05:39 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 01, 2008, 07:28:40 AM
Found it: http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2402

It was discussed on some other board. Never been able to get my hands on it.

Thomas

What a fascinating looking disc. I just read the review. Frustratingly it is on the long-gone Portugalsom label.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 01, 2008, 08:11:53 AM
I wonder if disappointingly staid as a phrase is found much in the company of Ken Russell . . . ?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2008, 08:15:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 01, 2008, 08:11:53 AM
I wonder if disappointingly staid as a phrase is found much in the company of Ken Russell . . . ?

Staid isn't. Hence Jeffrey's disappointment.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 08:15:59 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 01, 2008, 08:04:15 AM
You mean 8.

I mean, I typed that post in a furious hurry! Dishwasher started to leak all over the kitchen floor.... :o :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2008, 08:16:54 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 08:15:59 AM
I mean, I typed that post in a furious hurry! Dishwasher started to leak all over the kitchen floor.... :o :o

:o :o All is forgiven.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 01, 2008, 08:18:28 AM
Luke, Your time was not wasted. I guess M was the grit that in legend is needed to form the pearl. I found your prompted discourses very illuminating and as I indicated; they have encouraged me to get hold of and explore more of his music and that is one of the more worthwhile purposes of the board.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 08:20:24 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 01, 2008, 08:15:08 AM
Staid isn't. Hence Jeffrey's disappointment.  ;)

OT

Oh yes! I loved those mad Mahler and Tchaikovsky films. His tribute to the sculptor Gaudia-Brzeska "Savage Messiah", is actually a v good film.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 01, 2008, 08:28:39 AM
My favourite recordings:

A Sea Symphony: Boult/LPO

A London Symphony: Barbirolli/Hallé (Dutton), Hickox/LSO (original 1913 version)

A Pastoral Symphony: Boult/LPO

Symphony No 4: Bernstein/NY Phil, Vaughan Williams/BBC (Naxos)

Symphony No 5: Menuhin/RPO, Haitink/LPO

Symphony No 6: Davis/BBC

Symphony 7: Boult/LPO, Haitink/LPO, Previn/LSO

Symphony No 8: Barbirolli/Hallé (Dutton), Haitink/LPO

Symphony No 9: Haitink/LPO, Bakels/Bournemouth


Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 01, 2008, 08:32:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 08:20:24 AM
Oh yes! I loved those mad Mahler and Tchaikovsky films. His tribute to the sculptor Gaudia-Brzeska "Savage Messiah", is actually a v good film.

And wth some very nice nudity from Helen Mirren, long before she became Queen of England  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 01, 2008, 09:05:39 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PM
Thanks for all the detailed replies. I didn't have time to read through all of them, however, the first reply to my last post by sound67, a self-declared VW expert, already confirmed what I had suspected, namely that VW's music can apparently only be appreciated by comparing it to more famous composers of his era, and putting these down. But I am not interested in that. I am only interested in music which stands on its own. Apparently, VW's music doesn't.
According to several people here, it only gains status as some kind of anti-thesis to composers like Mahler and Strauss, and others. Funny, I am not even into Mahler that much right now, in fact, I have been tired of and taking a break from his music for a long time now and wanted to explore music which is radically different and which offers me contrasting perspectives on how musical material can be sourced, used, and developed to make coherent, relevant statements which stand on their own. That does not seem to be the case here with VW. According to sound67, being a trained musician also stands in the way of appreciating his music. I do not know of any other composer where that is the case. In fact, understanding music from the point of view of a trained musician usually enhances enjoyment of just about any kind of musical style. Since that is not the case here, I think I will just pass and spend my time better exploring the music of more relevant composers than this marginal English phenomenon, like VW's teacher Ravel from whom I have never heard a single bar of music, be it orchestral, chamber music, or songs, which did not deeply fascinate and intrigue  me. The only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence? Why do even English musicians prefer to perform the music of such composers that their local heroes, like VW, get compared to by the "experts"? Why is his music performed far less even in England than any given composer - and I mean any, even the more marginal figues included - from the standard canon of French - German - Austrian - Czech - Russian composers? Wy does it not stand on its own, but only as a negative comparison to these by pseudo-intellectuals?

You relentlessly scold posters here for not replying to your demand that they define the V-W idiom, then when extremely thoughtful replies are posted, you don't have time to read them, but find that your lack of appreciation  of V-W after listening to a few recordings is evidence of a deficiency in the British nation?  What petulant nonsense!

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on September 01, 2008, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 01, 2008, 09:05:39 AM
You relentlessly scold posters here for not replying to your demand that they define the V-W idiom, then when extremely thoughtful replies are posted, you don't have time to read them, but find that your lack of appreciation  of V-W after listening to a few recordings is evidence of a deficiency in the British nation?  What petulant nonsense!
Remind you of anyone you know?  ;D

Re. RVW:  the discussion here, particularly Luke's posts, has spurred me to listening to RVW again with fresh ears--and this in spite of some recent Henning compositions clamoring to be heard!  Last night I listened to the Hilary Hahn/Colin Davis/LSO Lark Ascending -- more beautiful and more nearly perfect to my ears each time I hear it (this is one case in which I think the balance spotlighting the soloist works very well) -- and to the Slatkin/Philharmonia Pastoral Symphony -- inspired by RVW's experience in the war, not by cowpats, in the midst of which my wife came in, sat beside me, and listened, then requested that I rip a copy so she can add it to her Sansa player.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 01, 2008, 09:39:50 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 01, 2008, 09:17:34 AM
Remind you of anyone you know?  ;D

You are referring to yourself, I assume?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 01, 2008, 10:18:18 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 01, 2008, 08:04:15 AM
I know all 32 symphonies almost by heart, and I can't really choose a favourite. There are beauties everywhere.

Wow, that's amazing! Do recordings of all 32 exist? Or do you know the scores by heart?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 10:31:54 AM
Yes they do - not easy to get hold of, but certainly easier than most of the scores! I only have 4 of the symphonies in score, and three of those were gifts from Holland  ;); in addition to these, I think Johan has two or three more scores.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on September 01, 2008, 10:37:38 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 01, 2008, 09:39:50 AM
You are referring to yourself, I assume?
Wrong again...but then why spoil your perfect record?  ;D

Quote from: karlhenning on September 01, 2008, 08:11:53 AM
I wonder if disappointingly staid as a phrase is found much in the company of Ken Russell . . . ?
Saw this belatedly, Karl.  Not only amusing, but set me to wondering what a Ken Russell RVW bioflick might be like.  :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 01, 2008, 11:16:44 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 03:41:59 AM
That, of course, is horse shit from first to last

A fair verdict on the quality of the response, imho, and duly noted.  $:) (But, as many here, I'm quite happy with the result, an RVW thread come to full life again and making us all listen to his music afresh.)  :)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2008, 12:17:41 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 10:31:54 AM
I only have 4 of the symphonies in score, and three of those were gifts from Holland  ;); in addition to these, I think Johan has two or three more scores.

I have scores (some of them were absurdly expensive) of the Piano Music, Violin Concerto and symphonies 3, 7, 8, 10, 11, 21 and 22.

I 'know' all of the 32 symphonies virtually by heart, because I have been listening to them over and over again for 30 years...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 12:21:31 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 01, 2008, 12:17:41 PM
I have scores (some of them were absurdly expensive) of the Piano Music, Violin Concerto and symphonies 3, 7, 8, 10, 11, 21 and 22.

Not the Gothic? Surely you have that one - it's the only one that's easy to get hold of!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2008, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 12:21:31 PM
Not the Gothic? Surely you have that one - it's the only one that's easy to get hold of!

No... There was a copy at the Music Library in Amsterdam when I was a member there, and that was good enough for me (80s). And I haven't bought it since because the score is riddled with mistakes, which only now have been corrected in a new edition by the HBS (with the Sibelius programme). This edition will be used for the (hopefully!) upcoming performance of 'The Gothic' in Australia in 2009  (see my latest addition to the Havergal Brian thread...)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 01, 2008, 08:32:47 AM
And wth some very nice nudity from Helen Mirren, long before she became Queen of England  ;D

Sarge

Why else do you think I recommend it  ;D She made a memorable contribution to Excalibur also.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 01:17:41 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 01, 2008, 08:28:39 AM
My favourite recordings:

A Sea Symphony: Boult/LPO

A London Symphony: Barbirolli/Hallé (Dutton), Hickox/LSO (original 1913 version)

A Pastoral Symphony: Boult/LPO

Symphony No 4: Bernstein/NY Phil, Vaughan Williams/BBC (Naxos)

Symphony No 5: Menuhin/RPO, Haitink/LPO

Symphony No 6: Davis/BBC

Symphony 7: Boult/LPO, Haitink/LPO, Previn/LSO

Symphony No 8: Barbirolli/Hallé (Dutton), Haitink/LPO

Symphony No 9: Haitink/LPO, Bakels/Bournemouth


Sarge

The Bernstein No 4 is good. Pity he didn't record No 6. Must listen again to Menuhin No 5; a good coupling with the Piano Concerto and also Bakels No 9.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 01, 2008, 01:18:38 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 03:41:59 AM
Thanks, M. Against all my better judgement, I took your request for information on VW’s idiom seriously, and took the time to wrote you several lengthy posts on it, as well as on trying to correct some of your misunderstandings about the roots of VW’s style. But, of course, and as I suspected, it turns out that what I wrote doesn’t really fit with the way you wanted this discourse to go

Why all this upsetness? I said thanks for all the replies, but I simply totally lost interest in the subject before I got to reading all of them when I started reading and the very first post was yet another of those silly comparisons. I hadn't even thought of comparing and "measuring" VW against Mahler. I am just tired, tired, tired to death of all these silly comparisons. If it doesn't seem possible to discuss somebody's music without putting a lot of other composers down, then I am not interested in the discussion.

You can't say that what you wrote doesn't fit my expectations because I didn't read what you wrote (and therefore have no opinion about it). But this forum is not just for my entertainment, it is for everybody who reads it, and it seems from the many replies you got (which I only scanned very superficially) that other people welcomed that you took the time to write some views, so your time wasn't wasted, it appears to me.

It looks as if I stimulated a more detailed and focused discussion with my "provocative" questions. Sure, there are also the usual upset posts from some people whose cultural inferiority complexes simply can not digest that kind of questions. I am always amazed at how quickly Sarge goes from an apparently sane and calm person to all world wars and all the "butt kicking" his grandfather apparently did (what does that have to do with music?), even though after living in Germany for several decades, he should know that most of the people from there of my generation look at all these things in a very different way - when I talk about music, I talk about music, not about won or lost wars - funny that somebody who actually took part in the - failed - attempt to bomb a tiny, tiny country back into the stone age has the nerve to accuse me who has never taken part in any military action against anyone. And to seek pride in the alleged military exploits of his ancestors. Strange.

But apart from that kind of noise, it looks like you have a lively discussion going on here, so the fact that I lost interest in the subject should not diminish your enjoyment of the discussion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 01:30:03 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 01:18:38 PM
Why all this upsetness? I said thanks for all the replies, but I simply totally lost interest in the subject before I got to reading all of them when I started reading and the very first post was yet another of those silly comparisons. I hadn't even thought of comparing and "measuring" VW against Mahler. I am just tired, tired, tired to death of all these silly comparisons. If it doesn't seem possible to discuss somebody's music without putting a lot of other composers down, then I am not interested in the discussion.

Well, at least you clearly read my last long post in reply to you, so you now know full well that IMO (and not just mine) it's perfectly possible to discuss VW in the way you describe - all my posts do so, and so do most of the others here. Just not the one from sound67 you chose to concentrate on (and you'll notice if you read it that in the next post I immediately pointed out that bashing Mahler isn't necessary in order to praise VW). So, taking my word for it, you can safely let yourself be interested once more.  ;D

I thought I made the reason for my 'upsetness' pretty clear, so I won't go into it again.

No comment on the rest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 01, 2008, 01:45:00 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 01:30:03 PM
Well, at least you clearly read my last long post in reply to you

Sorry, I only read the first paragraph or so and quickly scanned over some of the other posts but like I said, the interest in the subject for me was simply over after the first post.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 01:30:03 PM
and you'll notice if you read it that in the next post I immediately pointed out that bashing Mahler isn't necessary in order to praise VW

I just read that. I agree. Why then does it come up all the time, especially when such less influential composers are discussed?

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 01:30:03 PM
I thought I made the reason for my 'upsetness' pretty clear, so I won't go into it again.

I understood that, but like I said, I don't your effort was wasted because other people apparently found them valuable to read.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 01:30:03 PM
No comment on the rest.

No, I guess we will have to leave it up to Sarge to explain why I have a huge pile of CDs of mostly Russian music sitting on the table next to me when according to him, I hate all countries and their music which won the war (and remember, Russia, unlike Britain, really won their part of the war). The only non-Russian CDs I have here next to me are Messiaen and Ravel. Yes, I guess that's what we Nazis listen to all the time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 02:14:00 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 01:45:00 PM
(and remember, Russia, unlike Britain, really won their part of the war).

OT

In 1940 Britain managed to resist invasion at a time when Russia was allied to Nazi Germany and the US was following a policy of neutrality.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 02:55:13 PM
Needn't be OT, if we can wrest it towards VW's happily non-jingoistic Song of Thanksgiving, commissioned by the BBC in 1943 as "a work to be performed when Hitler's Germany is defeated". Indicative of VW, the composer who was active in his support for the humane treatment of German POWs IIRC, the text he selected from Kipling is full of forgiveness rather than triumph or gloating.

Teach us delight in simple things,
and mirth that has no bitter springs,
forgiveness free of evil done,
and love to all men 'neath the sun.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 03:02:21 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 02:55:13 PM
Needn't be OT, if we can wrest it towards VW's happily non-jingoistic Song of Thanksgiving, commissioned by the BBC in 1943 as "a work to be performed when Hitler's Germany is defeated". Indicative of VW, the composer who was active in his support for the humane treatment of German POWs IIRC, the text he selected from Kipling is full of forgiveness rather than triumph or gloating.

Teach us delight in simple things,
and mirth that has no bitter springs,
forgiveness free of evil done,
and love to all men 'neath the sun.

Good point and nicely brought back to VW!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 01, 2008, 03:09:21 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 01:18:38 PM
I hadn't even thought of comparing and "measuring" VW against Mahler. I am just tired, tired, tired to death of all these silly comparisons. If it doesn't seem possible to discuss somebody's music without putting a lot of other composers down, then I am not interested in the discussion.



      You should think about it if you want to understand what the posters are talking about. Perhaps since you've lost interest it doesn't matter any more. The comparison is not about the ultimate merit of the respective composers (in my case Vaughan Williams and Mahler are my favorite composers), but about how the differences can be usefully explained and how the methods of Vaughan Williams may account for a resistance to his music. Even if you find the explanations have merit you're not obligated to join the fan club.

     When posters try to counter the anti-modernists by exposition about how wonderful Schoenberg really is for the following technical reasons (it's really just like Brahms and the logical next step in the development of German music etc.) I have to smile: what does this have to do with liking the music? This might be interesting in itself but doesn't provide a good reason to change your mind about a compoer. Maybe all kinds of composers have really fabulous reasons for what they do, but my reaction is I still don't have to like it.

     The same applies to Vaughan Williams. We explore these differences because we love the music, and in a small set of cases some curious people might be tempted to explore the music further based on what they read. This doesn't amount to anything more than that, in my view, and certainly not a proof that Vaughan Williams is a better composer than Mahler.

Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 03:02:21 PM
Good point and nicely brought back to VW!

     Yeah, but....war?  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 01, 2008, 03:15:47 PM
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:

Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.


I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 01, 2008, 03:23:41 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 03:15:47 PM
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:

Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.


I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?
Stout? Isn't that a beer? I wouldn't worry about the meaning since he or she is most likely drunk when he/she wrote it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 01, 2008, 03:33:18 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 02:55:13 PM
Needn't be OT, if we can wrest it towards VW's happily non-jingoistic Song of Thanksgiving, commissioned by the BBC in 1943 as "a work to be performed when Hitler's Germany is defeated". Indicative of VW, the composer who was active in his support for the humane treatment of German POWs IIRC, the text he selected from Kipling is full of forgiveness rather than triumph or gloating.

Teach us delight in simple things,
and mirth that has no bitter springs,
forgiveness free of evil done,
and love to all men 'neath the sun.

Artfully done, Luke!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 01, 2008, 03:35:20 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 03:15:47 PM
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:

Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.


I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?

Peculiar, isn't it?  To our ears, the music hardly "means" this text, where it wonderfully suits "I heard the voice of Jesus say . . . ."

In short, M, that archaic hymn-verse rhetorically wonders why the world resists God's work and agent of Redemption.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2008, 03:42:16 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 03:15:47 PM
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:

Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.


I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?

It is part of Psalm 2. Look here:

http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Psalm_2

Examples of other translations:

1. Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD

(KING JAMES Version)

1. Why do the heathen so furiously rage together : and why do the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth stand up, and the rulers take counsel together : against the Lord, and against his Anointed.

(Book of Common Prayer)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 01, 2008, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PM
The only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence?

Now, M, such chauvinism is unworthy of you. Perhaps you are reacting against the gushing Anglophilia hereabouts? At least no one has yet referred to Vernon Handley as "Tod" :)
Actually, I'm surprised how popular Vaughan Williams is amongst American aficionados, more popular than most American composers. I wonder why...

I think you have made a cursory judgement based on minimal exposure to VW's music. My own experience is that he has a very individual manner, which takes time to appreciate (it doesn't help that, at least to me, much of his minor work sounds quite kitsch). Give the middle symphonies a chance and you may change your mind.

BTW, thanks for posting the verse above - "The Kings arise, the Lords devise" - good stuff.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 01, 2008, 10:50:20 PM
Started listening to Boult's EMI traversal of the symphonies.  Started at the end and have heard 9 and 8 a few times each.  In both, there are things I enjoy, although I don't yet hear the thread that ties the music together and makes them truely great symphonies.  In #8, I find the first movement, a set of variations without a theme, to be haunting and compelling.  The slow movement has some passages a beautifully dissonant harmony.  The scherzo is amusing.  The rest eludes my appreciation at this time.  In #9, I hear some impressive sonorities, some engaging counterpoint, particularly involving the reeds.  I hear very little coherence in it, so far.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 01, 2008, 11:21:25 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 01, 2008, 03:42:16 PM
It is part of Psalm 2. Look here:

http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Psalm_2

Examples of other translations:

1. Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD

(KING JAMES Version)

1. Why do the heathen so furiously rage together : and why do the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth stand up, and the rulers take counsel together : against the Lord, and against his Anointed.

(Book of Common Prayer)

Ahh, spoiling my fun! ;D I was going to try to translate with an Elizabethan glossary (a very useful thing to have around, hehe).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 02, 2008, 12:24:36 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 01, 2008, 06:52:08 PM
At least no one has yet referred to Vernon Handley as "Tod" :)

  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2008, 01:41:30 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 01, 2008, 11:21:25 PM
Ahh, spoiling my fun! ;D I was going to try to translate with an Elizabethan glossary (a very useful thing to have around, hehe).

I remember from my Shakespeare 'fond' means 'foolish' (Lear uses it). For the rest the text isn't that hard to understand if you know your Elizabethans... More or less.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 02, 2008, 01:55:36 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 02, 2008, 01:41:30 AM
I remember from my Shakespeare 'fond' means 'foolish' (Lear uses it). For the rest the text isn't that hard to understand if you know your Elizabethans... More or less.  ;)

:) I was having trouble with "stout", and was relieved that the book included it - it must be pretty good, hehe...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 02, 2008, 06:40:21 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 06:57:35 AM
Yes, you're correct in your interpretation of my confused signals! I think the 5th is a 'perfect' symphony - it has lucidity, balance, integration, flow, magnificent material, a marvellous sense of musical symbolism, a compelling spiritual argument clearly expressed in musical (modal, rhythmic, melodic, intervallic, motivic, symbolic, textural, instrumental) terms.

And any composer would give an arm to be able to write anything as exquisite as the Romanza.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 02, 2008, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 03:15:47 PM
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:

Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.


I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?

Quote from: karlhenning on September 01, 2008, 03:35:20 PM
Peculiar, isn't it?  To our ears, the music hardly "means" this text, where it wonderfully suits "I heard the voice of Jesus say . . . ."

In short, M, that archaic hymn-verse rhetorically wonders why the world resists God's work and agent of Redemption.

As far as I know, the words Vaughan Williams really had in mind, are those from a hymn from 1712 by Joseph Adison on the same (Thomas Tallis) melody, and especially its first line: "When rising from the bed of death" (I've always been humming these words with the music and they fit rather well, in all respects  ;-)  :'( :) 8)

For Addison's complete verse, see: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/w/r/wriftbod.htm (with the music added for free, in a superb performance).  ;)



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 02, 2008, 11:30:22 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 02, 2008, 11:20:28 AM
For Addison's complete verse, see: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/w/r/wriftbod.htm (with the music added for free, in a superb performance).  ;)

One of the most necessary smilies I can remember, that. Take heed, folks!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 02, 2008, 11:32:53 AM
Very interesting, Christo (and Luke), thanks!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2008, 11:33:14 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 02, 2008, 11:20:28 AM
As far as I know, the words Vaughan Williams really had in mind, are those from a hymn from 1712 by Joseph Adison on the same (Thomas Tallis) melody, and especially its first line: "When rising from the bed of death" (I've always been humming these words with the music and they fit rather well, in all respects  ;-)  :'( :) 8)


I think you are right. This line is referred to in the documentary "O thou transcendent" I watched yesterday...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 02, 2008, 02:07:40 PM
In case no one's mentioned it, 'The Passions of Vaughan Williams' is on BBC in less than 15 minutes. I'd record it, but don't have access to the equipment at the moment. If anyone else was tempted to, though.....  ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 02, 2008, 02:15:27 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 02, 2008, 02:07:40 PM
In case no one's mentioned it, 'The Passions of Vaughan Williams' is on BBC in less than 15 minutes. I'd record it, but don't have access to the equipment at the moment. If anyone else was tempted to, though.....  ;) ;) ;)

I wonder how possible it is to rip the iPlayer version of it... The sound will probably be miserable, though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 02, 2008, 07:56:05 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 02, 2008, 02:15:27 PMI wonder how possible it is to rip the iPlayer version of it... The sound will probably be miserable, though.
I once used this, in order to create a flash animation of what happens on my computer..
http://sourceforge.net/projects/camstudio/
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 02, 2008, 10:13:56 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 02, 2008, 02:07:40 PM
In case no one's mentioned it, 'The Passions of Vaughan Williams' is on BBC in less than 15 minutes. I'd record it, but don't have access to the equipment at the moment. If anyone else was tempted to, though.....  ;) ;) ;)

I recorded it when it was on before If anyone wants a copy let me know, but it might take a little while to get a copy done.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 03, 2008, 01:26:54 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 01, 2008, 01:12:44 AM

London Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Haitink-EMI, Handley-EMI-LPO (the earlier one), Arwel-Hughes-ASV, Barbirolli-Dutton
Pastoral Symphony: Boult-Decca, Previn-RCA, Thomson-Chandos
4th Symphony: Berglund-EMI, Thomson-Chandos, Vaughan Williams-Dutton
5th Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI, Hickox-Chandos (his only really fine one), Barbirolli-EMI (not the earlier Barbirolli-Dutton)

9th Symphony: Slatkin-RCA, Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI

After all this Thomson listing, I am seriously considering his boxset. Thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 03, 2008, 01:30:16 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 03, 2008, 01:26:54 AM
After all this Thomson listing, I am seriously considering his boxset. Thanks.


He was an underrated conductor. Try his Walton Symphony No 1 or Bax tone poems (Christmas Eve etc) on Chandos.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 04, 2008, 01:02:06 AM
Since noticing the " 'Ave a banana" musical quote in the London symphony (with some assistance from Bill Bailey!) I've been wondering what the origin of that musical phrase is. The only thing I could find via Google was an assertion that it is from an 1897 musichall song called "Let's all go down the Strand". I guess it's unlikely someone here would know more about this, but...

EDIT: Oops, I did find the lyrics after all (http://londonbobby.com/lblyric.htm#strand), but the way the phrase is used suggests it was previously extant. Maybe it was just an old Covent Garden "cry"?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 04, 2008, 07:14:33 AM
I've previously had a superficial familiarity with some of V-W's most popular pieces, and have been working my way through Boult's set of orchestral works on EMI.  I've been working backwards, from symphony #9.  Sad to say, the more I hear of V-W, the less impressed I am.  Symphony #9 had engaging middle movements, but the outer movements struck me as wandering, having some interesting sonorities and harmonies distributed throughout, but the major plan escaped me.  Symphony #8 had a wonderful first movement (variations without a theme) but the other three movements made a similar impression, interesting passages, not clear to me what the organizing principal is.  Symphony #7, listened to last night, is the low point so far.  Here at least I know what he is getting at, and there were passages of great beauty, but every time I'm about to get into it, there's that idiotic wind machine again.  It is frustrating because a lot of V-W's interestingly dissonant harmony and counterpoint is very attractive to me, but none of it comes within a context that makes sense to me.

I get the impression that 4, 5, and 6 are considered V-W's best, and they are next on my list.  I try to remain optimistic, but as things are going, it looks like I'll be keeping this set just to remind myself never to waste my money on another recording of music by V-W.  If you've got the Tallis fantasy, you've got all of the V-W you need, it would appear.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 04, 2008, 07:23:04 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 04, 2008, 07:14:33 AM
I've previously had a superficial familiarity with some of V-W's most popular pieces, and have been working my way through Boult's set of orchestral works on EMI.  I've been working backwards, from symphony #9.  Sad to say, the more I hear of V-W, the less impressed I am.  Symphony #9 had engaging middle movements, but the outer movements struck me as wandering, having some interesting sonorities and harmonies distributed throughout, but the major plan escaped me.  Symphony #8 had a wonderful first movement (variations without a theme) but the other three movements made a similar impression, interesting passages, not clear to me what the organizing principal is.  Symphony #7, listened to last night, is the low point so far.  Here at least I know what he is getting at, and there were passages of great beauty, but every time I'm about to get into it, there's that idiotic wind machine again.  It is frustrating because a lot of V-W's interestingly dissonant harmony and counterpoint is very attractive to me, but none of it comes within a context that makes sense to me.

I get the impression that 4, 5, and 6 are considered V-W's best, and they are next on my list.  I try to remain optimistic, but as things are going, it looks like I'll be keeping this set just to remind myself never to waste my money on another recording of music by V-W.  If you've got the Tallis fantasy, you've got all of the V-W you need, it would appear.



I think we have proof positive that Scarpia and M are, in fact, the same person  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 04, 2008, 07:23:40 AM
Somehow I feel - and hope - that 4-6 won't disappoint. I don't have the problems you describe with 7-9, but I can understand them completely. 4-6, though, are real 'symphonic' symphonies, with the most magnificent sweep and conviction that only the best symphonies have. I hope you find that too.

OTOH, liking VW for things like the Tallis Fantasia is hardly a bad thing! That's a work that strikes a certain vein very deeply, and that explains its success (if you like it you will probably like the slow movement of the 5th particularly, but then only someone with no heart wouldn't like that one). In VW successfulness tends to indicate that he's really hit upon something special, not that he's compromised for reasons of popularity - The Lark Ascending is the other ultra-popular work which thoroughly deserves its status. In the same highly lyrical vein is the Serenade to Music - and that leads nicely back to the symphonies IMO, especially no 5.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 04, 2008, 01:21:40 PM

I like the idea of liking V-W, but I think that wind machine put me over the edge.  The idea of listening to any more of it puts me in a bad mood. I've wanted time to listen to some Martinu,  so I think the V-W set is going back on the shelf.  Given how much music there is that I want to listen to and how little time I have available, it may be decades before it comes down again. 

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 04, 2008, 07:23:40 AM
Somehow I feel - and hope - that 4-6 won't disappoint. I don't have the problems you describe with 7-9, but I can understand them completely. 4-6, though, are real 'symphonic' symphonies, with the most magnificent sweep and conviction that only the best symphonies have. I hope you find that too.

OTOH, liking VW for things like the Tallis Fantasia is hardly a bad thing! That's a work that strikes a certain vein very deeply, and that explains its success (if you like it you will probably like the slow movement of the 5th particularly, but then only someone with no heart wouldn't like that one). In VW successfulness tends to indicate that he's really hit upon something special, not that he's compromised for reasons of popularity - The Lark Ascending is the other ultra-popular work which thoroughly deserves its status. In the same highly lyrical vein is the Serenade to Music - and that leads nicely back to the symphonies IMO, especially no 5.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 04, 2008, 02:28:00 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 04, 2008, 07:14:33 AM
I've previously had a superficial familiarity with some of V-W's most popular pieces, and have been working my way through Boult's set of orchestral works on EMI.  I've been working backwards, from symphony #9.  Sad to say, the more I hear of V-W, the less impressed I am.  Symphony #9 had engaging middle movements, but the outer movements struck me as wandering, having some interesting sonorities and harmonies distributed throughout, but the major plan escaped me.  Symphony #8 had a wonderful first movement (variations without a theme) but the other three movements made a similar impression, interesting passages, not clear to me what the organizing principal is.  Symphony #7, listened to last night, is the low point so far.  Here at least I know what he is getting at, and there were passages of great beauty, but every time I'm about to get into it, there's that idiotic wind machine again.  It is frustrating because a lot of V-W's interestingly dissonant harmony and counterpoint is very attractive to me, but none of it comes within a context that makes sense to me.

I get the impression that 4, 5, and 6 are considered V-W's best, and they are next on my list.  I try to remain optimistic, but as things are going, it looks like I'll be keeping this set just to remind myself never to waste my money on another recording of music by V-W.  If you've got the Tallis fantasy, you've got all of the V-W you need, it would appear.



    I was lucky to have picked up on RVW before I had much knowledge of other composers, so my ideas about what constitute musical development are conditioned by the example of a composer who clearly differs quite a bit. And I don't seem to have suffered any damage since I have no problem with Beethoven or Mahler or Hindemith. I'm actually a little surprised at how the stature of RVW has been elevated in recent years, though I'm certainly happy to see the recognition he's received. His music shouldn't make sense for most listeners, so what does it mean that it so often does?

     If avant-gardists can eschew development entirely, why would it be "wrong" to pursue a different idea of it, unless the tonal composer is supposed to conform? Why shouldn't RVW have the same freedom as the ultras are accorded? It seems strange to me, a kind of unconscious double standard. If I complain about how some avant-gardiste doesn't make sense, that says something about my narrow-mindedness, right? But if I have the same complaint about RVW, it's assumed that the composer is to blame. Really? What I'd like to see is all composers treated with the same consideration in this respect. You don't have to like the way their music departs from what you're used to, or what you like best. If the ultramodernist can be exempted from a particular standard, then so can less radical innovators. I can see this makes a hash of qualitative judgments generally, which is no doubt part of the attraction for me, but it really explains better than anything else how we can simultaneously reward the innovator and scourge the "conservative" for their departures from what's usually accepted as orthodox. How else can you explain how it is that one of the giants of the 20th century writes music that "doesn't go anywhere" when it's clear that many highly sophisticated listeners are convinced it does? (as well as unsophisticated listeners like me, who don't understand what going anywhere is supposed to mean, other than a subjective "rightness")

     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 04, 2008, 02:31:23 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 04, 2008, 01:21:40 PM
I like the idea of liking V-W, but I think that wind machine put me over the edge.  The idea of listening to any more of it puts me in a bad mood. I've wanted time to listen to some Martinu,  so I think the V-W set is going back on the shelf.  Given how much music there is that I want to listen to and how little time I have available, it may be decades before it comes down again. 


Just give the 5th a spin before you do anything so hasty  ;D And then move on to Martinu's stunning 4th - another radiant war-time work, for that matter.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: imperfection on September 04, 2008, 05:30:40 PM
"Vaughan Williams: A British Sibelius."

How accurate is this statement, and in what ways? I read it from a classical music magazine couple weeks ago.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 04, 2008, 05:33:35 PM
Quote from: drogulus on September 04, 2008, 02:28:00 PM
    I was lucky to have picked up on RVW before I had much knowledge of other composers, so my ideas about what constitute musical development are conditioned by the example of a composer who clearly differs quite a bit. And I don't seem to have suffered any damage since I have no problem with Beethoven or Mahler or Hindemith. I'm actually a little surprised at how the stature of RVW has been elevated in recent years, though I'm certainly happy to see the recognition he's received. His music shouldn't make sense for most listeners, so what does it mean that it so often does?

     If avant-gardists can eschew development entirely, why would it be "wrong" to pursue a different idea of it, unless the tonal composer is supposed to conform? Why shouldn't RVW have the same freedom as the ultras are accorded? It seems strange to me, a kind of unconscious double standard. If I complain about how some avant-gardiste doesn't make sense, that says something about my narrow-mindedness, right? But if I have the same complaint about RVW, it's assumed that the composer is to blame. Really? What I'd like to see is all composers treated with the same consideration in this respect. You don't have to like the way their music departs from what you're used to, or what you like best. If the ultramodernist can be exempted from a particular standard, then so can less radical innovators. I can see this makes a hash of qualitative judgments generally, which is no doubt part of the attraction for me, but it really explains better than anything else how we can simultaneously reward the innovator and scourge the "conservative" for their departures from what's usually accepted as orthodox. How else can you explain how it is that one of the giants of the 20th century writes music that "doesn't go anywhere" when it's clear that many highly sophisticated listeners are convinced it does? (as well as unsophisticated listeners like me, who don't understand what going anywhere is supposed to mean, other than a subjective "rightness")

I don't know what you are talking about.  If a piece of music is going to last more than 10 minutes, it has to have some structure to it, or I will find it unintelligible.  I don't care if it is avante-guard or pseudo-romantic like Vaughan-Williams   It doesn't have to have an established structure, like theme an variations or sonata form, it can have a structure that is improvised, but it must have something.  Strauss tone poems, like Tod und Verklarung or Don Juan have structure, Sibelius's Symphony #7 has structure, Schoenberg's chamber symphonies have structure.  These Vaughan Williams pieces don't give me a sense that there is more to them than a succession of interesting sounds.  There are interesting parts and boring parts, and the boring parts do not have any relation to the interesting parts (that I can perceive).  At least in classical symphony I get the idea that the boring parts are there to lead into the interesting parts.  I'd like to separate the interesting parts out and transform one of those 45 minute V-W blobs into a set of symphonic etudes lasting 7 minutes.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 04, 2008, 02:31:23 PM
Just give the 5th a spin before you do anything so hasty  ;D And then move on to Martinu's stunning 4th - another radiant war-time work, for that matter.

Well, maybe that would be prudent.  Do you have a favorite recording of Martinu's 4th?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 04, 2008, 06:58:15 PM
Scarpia, I agree with you about the wind machine basically diminishing the 7th symphony. For the 8th and 9th, these are works that need a strong grip by the conductor, and I suspect many are afraid of interpreting such supposedly "enigmatic" works.

Unlike most RVW fans, I didn't start with Boult, having generally been disappointed by him. (I have his EMI set on the way, though.) My first was Previn, who is terrific in 2, 3 and 4 (his less explosive interpretation of this has won me over), and very good in 5, though I feel he could have been more emotional (looking forward to hearing the Barbirolli/EMI recording). His 6 fails in the last, mysterious movement (lacks mystery). 7 has wind machine and fruity spoken parts by Ralph Richardson, but is otherwise grand; 8 and 9 are unconvincing for the reasons given above.

I think you've made a mistake starting with the last symphonies - give 4-6 a go, perhaps with someone besides Boult.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 04, 2008, 10:12:24 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 04, 2008, 05:33:35 PM
Well, maybe that would be prudent.  Do you have a favorite recording of Martinu's 4th?

YHM
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 04, 2008, 10:42:58 PM
Thomson-Scottish National Orchestra (Chandos)

Bryden Thomson's best work on records are his Nielsen and Martinu cycles, even ahead of the Vaughan Williams and the Bax.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 05, 2008, 03:59:53 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 04, 2008, 10:42:58 PM
Bryden Thomson's best work on records are his Nielsen and Martinu cycles, even ahead of the Vaughan Williams and the Bax.

I can't answer to this comparison, particularly, Thos, but I agree in the sense that complaints against his Nielsen cycle have puzzled me . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 05, 2008, 04:03:46 AM
Quote from: imperfection on September 04, 2008, 05:30:40 PM
"Vaughan Williams: A British Sibelius."

How accurate is this statement, and in what ways? I read it from a classical music magazine couple weeks ago.  :)

Kind of a strange statement, strikes me as.  Apt enough, in the sense that (a) both were capable and prolific symphonists, in an era when what they wanted to do with the orchestra was very much 'out of vogue', and (b) both composers were prolific and excellent in genres well beyond the mere tally of symphonies.

There are many ways in which the two composers don't 'match' well at all, though.  For one thing, compositional 'vogue' notwithstanding, Sibelius has always 'exported' well past Finland.  Where the Vaughan Williams symphonies for many decades remained primarily a local treasure.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 05, 2008, 04:08:20 AM
There's some sense that each symphony has its own unique and self-contained tone (and moral/aesthetic tone, too), I suppose. Also the feeling some get of 'music-as-landscape' - something to do with large paragraphs etc. I think 5 is VW's most Sibelian symphony - and it's dedicated to him too, 'without permission', which may be no coincidence.

No time to think about it coherently now, though. Ought to be working...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Hector on September 05, 2008, 05:47:26 AM
Quote from: imperfection on September 04, 2008, 05:30:40 PM
"Vaughan Williams: A British Sibelius."

How accurate is this statement, and in what ways? I read it from a classical music magazine couple weeks ago.  :)

What magazine would that be?

I do not think so and if there is such a thing then it would be either Bax, mutual admiration, or Simpson, great admirer, but I am clutching at straws as Sibelius' influence was wide and he was liked by the British public and British conductors (Beecham, Cameron, Collins, Gibson, Davis, Rattle).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 05, 2008, 06:54:49 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 05, 2008, 04:08:20 AM
I think 5 is VW's most Sibelian symphony - and it's dedicated to him too, 'without permission', which may be no coincidence.

BTW: The "without permission" primarily referred to the fact that at that moment in history (1943) the UK was officially at war with Finland, as it sided with Germany against the Soviet-Union (where Finnish troops were actively beleaguering Shostakovich's Leningrad) and no contacts of this kind (or any kind) were allowed.

(The dedication reveals the same type of attitude towards the war as mentioned here before regarding RVW's text choice for his Thanksgiving for Victory / Song of Thanksgving.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 05, 2008, 06:56:52 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 05, 2008, 06:54:49 AM
BTW: The "without permission" primarily referred to the fact that at that moment in history (1943) the UK was officially at war with Finland, as it sided with Germany against the Soviet-Union (where Finnish troops were actively beleaguering Shostakovich's Leningrad) and no contacts of this kind (or any kind) were allowed.

Also a reflection of a time when one did not as a rule publish such a dedication without the dedicatee's leave . . . even in cases where the dedicatee would find the gesture fitting or even flattering.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 05, 2008, 07:04:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 05, 2008, 06:56:52 AM
Also a reflection of a time when one did not as a rule publish such a dedication without the dedicatee's leave . . . even in cases where the dedicatee would find the gesture fitting or even flattering.

You're right, no doubt, thanks. But again: RVW couldn't ask for permission due to the circumstances just mentioned. So, it is a kind of statement after all, as there was no obvious reason why the symphony should be dedicated to Sibelius (he didn't dedicate his other ones to Richard Strauss or Prokoviev :-) - hadn't he meant a kind of "message" too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 05, 2008, 07:05:32 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 05, 2008, 07:04:09 AM
You're right, no doubt, thanks. But again: RVW couldn't ask for permission due to the circumstances just mentioned. So, it is a kind of statement after all, as there was no obvious reason why the symphony should be dedicated to Sibelius (he didn't dedicate his other ones to Richard Strauss or Prokoviev :-) - hadn't he meant a kind of "message" too.

True, indeed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on September 05, 2008, 08:42:58 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 05, 2008, 06:54:49 AM
BTW: The "without permission" primarily referred to the fact that at that moment in history (1943) the UK was officially at war with Finland, as it sided with Germany against the Soviet-Union (where Finnish troops were actively beleaguering Shostakovich's Leningrad) and no contacts of this kind (or any kind) were allowed.

(The dedication reveals the same type of attitude towards the war as mentioned here before regarding RVW's text choice for his Thanksgiving for Victory / Song of Thanksgving.)

Very interesting point! Great Britain's relationship with Finland was complex. The Finns were regarded as heroes in 1939-40 during the Winter War with the Soviet Union when sympathy was directed towards 'little Finland' in her heroic struggle against the military might of Russia and there was much admiration for the way in which the Finns gave the Soviet Army such a hammering. At that time of course Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were bound by the terms of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.

My father-who had met the Finnish President, Marshal Mannerheim, in 1937-used to tell me that 'Finlandia' was played a lot at that time in Britain as a mark of solidarity with the Finns. My father played the timpani in an amateur orchestra and always found the opening of 'Finlandia'-with its drum rolls-fiendishly difficult to get right!

Then Finland allied itself(reluctantly) with Hitler in the continuing struggle against Stalin and Britain declared war on Finland. Whether this led to any reduction in the amount of Sibelius's music played here I don't know but it would be interesting to find out!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 05, 2008, 11:00:17 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 04, 2008, 06:58:15 PM
I think you've made a mistake starting with the last symphonies - give 4-6 a go, perhaps with someone besides Boult.

Well, I generally like Boult.  I believe I do have a Barbirolli recording of 5, a Haitink recording of 6.  For # 4 I think it's just Boult.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2008, 04:36:26 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 05, 2008, 08:42:58 AM
Very interesting point! Great Britain's relationship with Finland was complex. The Finns were regarded as heroes in 1939-40 during the Winter War with the Soviet Union when sympathy was directed towards 'little Finland' in her heroic struggle against the military might of Russia and there was much admiration for the way in which the Finns gave the Soviet Army such a hammering. At that time of course Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were bound by the terms of the Ribbentropp-Molotov pact.

My father-who had met the Finnish President, Marshal Mannerheim, in 1937-used to tell me that 'Finlandia' was played a lot at that time in Britain as a mark of solidarity with the Finns. My father played the timpani in an amateur orchestra and always found the opening of 'Finlandia'-with its drum rolls-fiendishly difficult to get right!

Then Finland allied itself(reluctantly) with Hitler in the continuing struggle against Stalin and Britain declared war on Finland. Whether this led to any reduction in the amount of Sibelius's music played here I don't know but it would be interesting to find out!

Yes, this is very interesting. The British nearly found themselves at war with the Russians in Finland in 1940 (Finland surrendered to the Russians before a British Expeditionary Force could be sent out; had this happened Britain would have been fighting Russia and Germany at the same time.)

Sibelius's courteous thank you to Vaughan Williams for the dedication of VW's Symphony No 5 arrived with VW in June 1946, via the British Council:

Sibelius said of VW's symphony: "It is a well-rounded, harmonious and vivid work.  Moreover I have seldom heard anything that is more English.  I do not mean that you were influenced by British folk songs but the symphonic grip seems to me to be English."

Sibelius did not speak English (when he met Vaughan Williams they spoke in French.) The letter was typed to VW in English. VW, apparently, would have preferred something incomprehensible in Finnish, written in Sibelius's own hand!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on September 06, 2008, 05:04:21 AM
I did not know that Sibelius could not speak English, Jeffrey. Had my father accepted Mannerheim's offer to arrange an introduction to Sibelius when he was in Finland in 1937 he would have had to organise an interpreter too since my father certainly couldn't speak French either :)

(If anyone is interested in the Winter War of 1939-40 there is an excellent Wikipedia article-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
Although Finland had to make peace and cede important territory at the end of the war the Finns had inflicted appalling casualties on the Red Army-a fact noted with keen interest in Berlin!)

Sorry...nothing to do with VW, I know.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2008, 09:17:08 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 06, 2008, 05:04:21 AM
I did not know that Sibelius could not speak English, Jeffrey. Had my father accepted Mannerheim's offer to arrange an introduction to Sibelius when he was in Finland in 1937 he would have had to organise an interpreter too since my father certainly couldn't speak French either :)

(If anyone is interested in the Winter War of 1939-40 there is an excellent Wikipedia article-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
Although Finland had to make peace and cede important territory at the end of the war the Finns had inflicted appalling casualties on the Red Army-a fact noted with keen interest in Berlin!)

Sorry...nothing to do with VW, I know.

The Collected Letters of Vaughan Williams quotes Ursula VW stating that Sibelius didn't speak English. However, I'm aware that Beecham visited Sibelius in Finland and they conversed together. Maybe Sibelius spoke some English after all  ???

The Winter War is a fascinating episode in History.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2008, 09:24:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2008, 09:17:08 AM
The Winter War is a fascinating episode in History.

OT but grimly amusing:

The Soviet commander, Vinogradov, and two of his chief officers survived the battle. When they reached the Soviet lines four days later, they were court martialed, found guilty and sentenced to death; the executions were carried out immediately. The charge was losing 55 field kitchens to the enemy.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on September 06, 2008, 09:26:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2008, 09:17:08 AM
The Collected Letters of Vaughan Williams quotes Ursula VW ststing that Sibelius didn't speak English. However, I'm aware that Beecham visited Sibelius in Finland and they conversed together. Maybe Sibelius spoke some English after all  ???

The Winter War is a fascinating episode in History.

I suspect that Beecham may have spoken French. He frequently conducted French orchestras and in 1938 was invested with the Legion of Honour by President Lebrun.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on September 06, 2008, 09:35:07 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 06, 2008, 09:24:54 AM
OT but grimly amusing:

The Soviet commander, Vinogradov, and two of his chief officers survived the battle. When they reached the Soviet lines four days later, they were court martialed, found guilty and sentenced to death; the executions were carried out immediately. The charge was losing 55 field kitchens to the enemy.

Poor Vinogradov's 44th Division was a mechanised unit trying to fight in waist-deep snow. He had lost his supply train with thousands of skis on board but, in any case, very few of his troops knew how to use skis. His men were cold, hungry(no field kitchens :() and totally demoralised.

("The Winter War: the Russo-Finnish War of 1939-40", William R. Trotter, Aurum Press, 2003)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 06, 2008, 11:09:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2008, 04:36:26 AM
Sibelius did not speak English (when he met Vaughan Williams they spoke in French.) The letter was typed to VW in English. VW, apparently, would have preferred something incomprehensible in Finnish, written in Sibelius's own hand!

Sibelius' hands were trembling in his later decades (a consequence of his very heavy drinking for a long time?). He had a secretary to take care of his correspondence. Probably a letter in Finnish would have been typed, too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 06, 2008, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 06, 2008, 09:24:54 AM
OT but grimly amusing:

The Soviet commander, Vinogradov, and two of his chief officers survived the battle. When they reached the Soviet lines four days later, they were court martialed, found guilty and sentenced to death; the executions were carried out immediately. The charge was losing 55 field kitchens to the enemy.

I get the "grimly" part, but what do you find "amusing" here?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 06, 2008, 12:54:37 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 04, 2008, 05:33:35 PM
I don't know what you are talking about.  If a piece of music is going to last more than 10 minutes, it has to have some structure to it, or I will find it unintelligible.  I don't care if it is avante-guard or pseudo-romantic like Vaughan-Williams   It doesn't have to have an established structure, like theme an variations or sonata form, it can have a structure that is improvised, but it must have something.  Strauss tone poems, like Tod und Verklarung or Don Juan have structure, Sibelius's Symphony #7 has structure, Schoenberg's chamber symphonies have structure.  These Vaughan Williams pieces don't give me a sense that there is more to them than a succession of interesting sounds.  There are interesting parts and boring parts, and the boring parts do not have any relation to the interesting parts (that I can perceive).  At least in classical symphony I get the idea that the boring parts are there to lead into the interesting parts.  I'd like to separate the interesting parts out and transform one of those 45 minute V-W blobs into a set of symphonic etudes lasting 7 minutes.




    I think you know what I mean, which is why you replied with specifics to the points I raised. And it's clear that what you don't like sounds unstructured to you. It's frequently that way with me. I do get the impression that "pseudo-romantic" is the real problem here. If RVW had the decency to be more radical sounding it would be easier to give him credit for the structure the music has. This is the sliding scale I'm talking about. The "pseudo-romantic" doesn't innovate, he wanders. And if a surprisingly large number of listeners with high standards hear the missing structure, they must be pseudo-something, too.

     
QuoteI'd like to separate the interesting parts out and transform one of those 45 minute V-W blobs into a set of symphonic etudes lasting 7 minutes.

     I'd like to hear what you would come up with, and then we could compare it with the original for structural integrity. I'm less ambitious. I doubt I could make more than minor improvements.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2008, 01:55:45 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 06, 2008, 11:10:58 AM
I get the "grimly" part, but what do you find "amusing" here?

Loss of kitchens weighs less than loss of men.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 06, 2008, 02:25:40 PM
And you find that "amusing"?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2008, 03:52:09 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 06, 2008, 02:25:40 PM
And you find that "amusing"?

Yes. Stupid inhumanity can take such bizarre forms.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 06, 2008, 04:03:48 PM
You and Uncle Iosif would have gotten along great, I think. He apparently had the same sense of humor.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2008, 11:45:41 PM
Quote from: sound67 on September 04, 2008, 10:42:58 PM
Thomson-Scottish National Orchestra (Chandos)

Bryden Thomson's best work on records are his Nielsen and Martinu cycles, even ahead of the Vaughan Williams and the Bax.

Thomas

Yes, I agree with this up to a point and really like the Martinu set. However, I think that Thomson's Bax Tone Poems are generally excellent. For example I prefer his Nympholept to either of the other versions on Naxos or the much praised new Vernon Handley recording. The critics don't agree with me but I regard the opening of Thomson's version as more magical than either of the others. His performance of Christmas Eve is great too but their is no rival recording to compare it with.

His VW symphonies Nos 4,6 and 9 are as good as any I know and No 2 is very highly regarded too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 07, 2008, 12:49:18 AM
While I admire some of Thomson's Bax symphonies (particularly his Bax 6th, whose measured and powerful opening contrasts sharply with Lloyd-Jones's and Handley's swifter, more lighter-spirited readings - I was also vaguely disappointed with Del Mar's much-touted Lyrita recording of this) for their atmosphere and tonal weight, I find it difficult now to listen to his "November Woods" e.g. after devouring Boult's altogether more intense and dramatic version on Lyrita (possibly the greatest disc I purchased in 2007).

(http://www.lyrita.co.uk/covers/SRCD0231.jpg)

Several critics have declared Thomson's Nielsen "Inextinguishable" the best of all the recordings he made for Chandos. While this is not my favorite Nielsen work, I can say that Thomson's "Four Temperaments" and "Espansiva" compare favorably to the oft-praised Blomstedt Decca and Schoenwandt versions.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 07, 2008, 02:17:28 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 07, 2008, 12:49:18 AM
While I admire some of Thomson's Bax symphonies (particularly his Bax 6th, whose measured and powerful opening contrasts sharply with Lloyd-Jones's and Handley's swifter, more lighter-spirited readings - I was also vaguely disappointed with Del Mar's much-touted Lyrita recording of this) for their atmosphere and tonal weight, I find it difficult now to listen to his "November Woods" e.g. after devouring Boult's altogether more intense and dramatic version on Lyrita (possibly the greatest disc I purchased in 2007).

(http://www.lyrita.co.uk/covers/SRCD0231.jpg)

Several critics have declared Thomson's Nielsen "Inextinguishable" the best of all the recordings he made for Chandos. While this is not my favorite Nielsen work, I can say that Thomson's "Four Temperaments" and "Espansiva" compare favorably to the oft-praised Blomstedt Decca and Schoenwandt versions.

Thomas

I agree about November Woods and, like you, have reservations about his (Del Mar's) much-hyped Lyrita recording of Bax's 6th Symphony (the least successful of the Lyrita Bax symphony recordings I think). I will try to listen to the Thomson version today. I really like Bax's Northern Ballad No 1 and was always surprised that there was only one recording (Boult's on the excellent Lyrita CD.) In fact I prefer the boult to the new Handley recording on Chandos. It is more atmospheric I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 07, 2008, 06:12:42 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 04, 2008, 05:33:35 PM


Well, maybe that would be prudent.  Do you have a favorite recording of Martinu's 4th?


I like the recent Belohlavek recording (CzPO on Supraphon, coupled with a very good 3rd Symphony). But I must warn I haven't heard the highly-praised Turnovsky, so I can't compare. Neumann's OK, but the overly resonant sound drowns some of the detail.

Getting back to Vee Dubya - I'm with Luke on symphonies 4-6, great mid-century symphonies by any measure, especially the 4th (my single favorite VW work, and one of ironclad symphonic logic - it actually seems to be written as a kind of parody of Beethoven's 5th, which may account for its tightness). Symphonies 7-9 I find problematic. Of this trio I like 8 very much, but I agree that the quality drops off a bit after the first movement. 7 just sounds like a glorified film score (because it is), while 9 I just have never been able to figure out. It seems to belong in the category of "weird final symphonies," along with Nielsen 6, Shostakovich 15, and Martinu 6. But I get on much better with those pieces than with VW 9.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 07, 2008, 07:13:26 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on September 07, 2008, 06:12:42 AMOf this trio I like 8 very much, but I agree that the quality drops off a bit after the first movement.

I don't agree. The three remaining movements are entirely characteristic of the composer: the winds-only "Scherzo" (English Folk Song Suite, Variations for Wind Band), the strings-only slow movement (Dives and Lazarus) and the bells-and-whistles toccata. It's supposed to be a light-hearted work, which is why I have a problem with Haitink's heavy-weather approach to it. When done in the right manner (such as the Elder-Hallé performance I heard at the Proms), it's a delightful piece. Beethoven composed a "light" 8th, too (I think I recall RVW referred to that as n example, but I'm not sure), and that Toccata positively sparkles.

The Antartica really is more of a series of "symphonic tableaux" than a symphony proper, but the tone poems therein are superb. I don't know why you're all getting worked up on the wind machine at all. Why not use one?

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 08:18:06 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 07, 2008, 07:13:26 AM
I don't know why you're all getting worked up on the wind machine at all. Why not use one?

Because it is a crude device that just makes noise?  Beethoven, Sibelius, Debussy were able to depict storms using their music.  With so much music by these greats, why listen to the efforts of a ham-fisted hack that needs sound effects?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 08:59:27 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 08:18:06 AM
Because it is a crude device that just makes noise?  Beethoven, Sibelius, Debussy were able to depict storms using their music.  With so much music by these greats, why listen to the efforts of a ham-fisted hack that needs sound effects?

Does that mean Strauss and Ravel are also ham-fisted hacks?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 09:25:50 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 08:59:27 AM
Does that mean Strauss and Ravel are also ham-fisted hacks?

If you are referring to Strauss's Alpine, I think the storm scene with the wind-machine is a low-point, but as a relatively short, self contained episode in very long piece I find it less annoying.  I don't recall hearing a wind machine in Ravel.

Regarding my vow to put the Boult V-W set on the shelf, I've reconsidered.  I'm getting rid of it;  it's now up for auction for a file-sale price.  But this doesn't mean I've given up on V-W just yet.  I started listening to the next disc of the Boult set, Sym 4 & 6, and decided that for music this loud I need a set that has better engineering than EMI gives Boult.  I have the Thomson/Chandos set on order, and well as the Hickox recording of 6/8 (SACD).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 07, 2008, 09:29:02 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 08:59:27 AM
Does that mean Strauss and Ravel are also ham-fisted hacks?

Imagine Ravel using a whip in his piano concerto.



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 09:30:41 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 09:25:50 AM
If you are referring to Strauss's Alpine, I think the storm scene with the wind-machine is a low-point, but as a relatively short, self contained episode in very long piece I find it less annoying.  I don't recall hearing a wind machine in Ravel.

In Daphnis.

The Alpine Symphony has a thunder machine too! Now that's crass!  ;D ;D

And Messiaen uses a wind machine and a 'geophone' (a drum filled with rocks and rubble) in Des Canyons.....

VW is a model of restraint and purity in comparison  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 07, 2008, 09:32:07 AM
There is also a wind machine in Don Quixote. Apart from the already mentioned pieces, I can't think of any others that use it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 09:33:03 AM
Brian 10, for one
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 09:35:06 AM
And, according to wiki (including some of those already mentioned):

    * Gioachino Rossini: The Barber of Seville
    * Richard Strauss: Don Quixote, Eine Alpensinfonie (An Alpine Symphony) and Die ägyptische Helena
    * Ralph Vaughan Williams: Sinfonia antartica
    * Ferde Grofé: Grand Canyon Suite
    * Oliver Messiaen: Des Canyons aux étoiles..., Saint-François d'Assise and Éclairs sur l'au-delà...
    * Maurice Ravel: Daphnis et Chloé
    * Giacomo Puccini: La Fanciulla del West
    * Michael Tippett: Symphony no. 4

(I'm not sure that Tippett specifies wind machine, though - IIRC it's just 'breathing noises' that are called for - which results in an unfortunate tendency for the piece to sound like an obscene phone call)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on September 07, 2008, 09:38:51 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 09:35:06 AM
(I'm not sure that Tippett specifies wind machine, though - IIRC it's just 'breathing noises' that are called for - which results in an unfortunate tendency for the piece to sound like an obscene phone call)
I seem to remember the Solti recording being particularly unfortunate in that regard.

Fortunately I have Tippett's own recording of it (back from when it was the BBC Music cover disc), where it's much less intrusive.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on September 07, 2008, 10:31:28 AM
I believe Tippett originally called for a wind machine, but once rehearsals were underway, he found that inadequate for the breathing sound that he really wanted, so at the performance, an amplified breathing voice was used.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 07, 2008, 11:05:56 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 07, 2008, 07:13:26 AM
I don't agree. The three remaining movements are entirely characteristic of the composer: the winds-only "Scherzo" (English Folk Song Suite, Variations for Wind Band), the strings-only slow movement (Dives and Lazarus) and the bells-and-whistles toccata. It's supposed to be a light-hearted work, which is why I have a problem with Haitink's heavy-weather approach to it. When done in the right manner (such as the Elder-Hallé performance I heard at the Proms), it's a delightful piece.

Well, one of the nice things about a board like this is it can cause you to re-listen and re-think. After reading your post, I pulled out my recording of the 8th (Bakels, Naxos) and spun it for the first time in a few years. It is indeed a delightful piece. One thing which struck me however: it follows very closely the template used by Hindemith in his Symphonia Serena, written several years before (1949 I think). I'm thinking particularly of the all-windy 2nd (scherzo-like) mvt. followed by the all-stringy slow mvt. Does anyone know if VW was deliberately following Hindy's example here?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 11:13:21 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 09:35:06 AM
    * Michael Tippett: Symphony no. 4

(I'm not sure that Tippett specifies wind machine, though - IIRC it's just 'breathing noises' that are called for - which results in an unfortunate tendency for the piece to sound like an obscene phone call)

Yes, I had a recording of that piece, probably Hickox.  That is the reason that in a collection with hundreds of composers represented I don't have a single recording of a piece by Tippett.  (Symphony for large orchestra a breathalyzer test.)  Imbecile.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 07, 2008, 11:21:45 AM
Quote from: M forever on September 07, 2008, 09:32:07 AM
There is also a wind machine in Don Quixote. Apart from the already mentioned pieces, I can't think of any others that use it.
I think in Die Walkuere, right after the opening Prelude and where Siegmund enters Hunding's house you sometimes hear some wind effects (not sure whether they are taped or made by an actual instrument live). In any case I don't think it is in the score and frankly think it is pretty distracting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 07, 2008, 11:23:13 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 11:13:21 AM
Yes, I had a recording of that piece, probably Hickox.  That is the reason that in a collection with hundreds of composers represented I don't have a single recording of a piece by Tippett.  (Symphony for large orchestra a breathalyzer test.)  Imbecile.


Imbecile is a bit harsh, but I have to admit I don't find Tippett's music really all that interesting either.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 12:02:51 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 11:13:21 AM
Yes, I had a recording of that piece, probably Hickox.  That is the reason that in a collection with hundreds of composers represented I don't have a single recording of a piece by Tippett.  (Symphony for large orchestra a breathalyzer test.)  Imbecile.

That is, IMO, much more than way off the mark. Tippett is one of the glories of 20th century music - more honest and humane than most; more brave and nakedly revealing than any. He was an immensely original composer, writing music of the most startling generosity and beauty - but also a fine, big-hearted human being who deserves better than petty insults of this sort.

Letting yourself be put off VW by the wind-machine in his 7th symphony and off Tippett by the breathing noises in his 4th is pretty much the same as rejecting Mahler because of that 'crass' (  ;) ) hammer in his 6t)

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 07, 2008, 11:23:13 AM
Imbecile is a bit harsh, but I have to admit I don't find Tippett's music really all that interesting either.

And what have you heard?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 07, 2008, 12:03:40 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 08:18:06 AM
Because it is a crude device that just makes noise?

Well, you've been an obsessive pedant, why change?  $:)

Antheil uses airplane propellers in the Ballet Mécanique, which may be even slightly cruder devices. Mossolov, Honegger and others have shown that machine music can be suggested without using actual machines. So?

QuoteBeethoven, Sibelius, Debussy were able to depict storms using their music. 

Yeah, that's the same.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 07, 2008, 12:08:03 PM
Quote from: Spitvalve on September 07, 2008, 11:05:56 AMit follows very closely the template used by Hindemith in his Symphonia Serena, written several years before (1949 I think). I'm thinking particularly of the all-windy 2nd (scherzo-like) mvt. followed by the all-stringy slow mvt. Does anyone know if VW was deliberately following Hindy's example here?

I'd have to dig a bit into my RVW lit to verify that, but every time I'm listening to the 8th, I'm thinking Hindemith, too.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 03:02:11 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 12:02:51 PM
Tippett is one of the glories of 20th century music - more honest and humane than most; more brave and nakedly revealing than any. He was an immensely original composer, writing music of the most startling generosity and beauty - but also a fine, big-hearted human being who deserves better than petty insults of this sort.

Clearly Tippett's music is much better than it sounds.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 07, 2008, 09:28:08 PM
Quote from: sound67 on September 07, 2008, 07:13:26 AM
I don't know why you're all getting worked up on the wind machine at all. Why not use one?

1. It's cheesy. A symphony is supposed to be a musical work, not an IMAX Experience.

2. It's redundant. What are the singers doing if not evoking the whistling and howling of the wind?

I imagine myself arguing with Vaughan Williams on this point; he crustily replies, "It may be a stupid idea, but it's what I meant."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 10:53:09 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 03:02:11 PM
Clearly Tippett's music is much better than it sounds.

Only in as much as every great composer's music is better than it sounds. Beethoven is better than he sounds. Mozart is better than he sounds. And so on.

But Tippett's music, like Beethoven's and Mozart's, is also simply glorious just as sound - to mention just a few, the Piano Concerto, the Triple Concerto, the earlier works for strings: these are about as beautiful as 20th century music gets. Rejecting Tippett's oeuvre on the basis of the breathing noises in the 4th is as ridiculous as M's rejecting VW based on a couple of superficial listenings (or your rejection of VW on the basis of the wind machine in the 7th, for that matter); extrapolating from the same breathing noises the 'fact' of Tippett's 'imbecility' is as ridiculous as M's extrapolation that VW's status is simply a matter of over-compensation by an English nation desperate for some composer, any composer, to call their own. You excoriated him for that, remember?

Quote from: eyeresist on September 07, 2008, 09:28:08 PM
1. It's cheesy. A symphony is supposed to be a musical work, not an IMAX Experience.

2. It's redundant. What are the singers doing if not evoking the whistling and howling of the wind?

It's neither. As I said, it occupies precisely the same sort of position as the hammer in Mahler 6 (or the breathing sounds in Tippett 4) - that is, as an extra-musical symbol of something that exists at or beyond the borders of the music proper. In Mahler, we have an extra-musical symbol of 'Fate'  - it has to be extra-musical in order to be a shocking intrusion from the 'outside world'. In Tippett, we have an extra-musical symbol of the bare basics of 'Life' - it has to be extra-musical in order to be the blank canvas from which the music grows and to which it recedes. In VW 7, we have an extra-musical symbol of 'Nature' (in its rawest, most dangerous state) - and it has to be extra-musical in order to evoke that inhuman world which is far beyond, and oblivious to, human concerns. To suggest that the singers would be an acceptable substitute shows a lack of understanding of the musics' fundamental dialectic.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 07, 2008, 11:44:18 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 10:53:09 PM
It's neither. As I said, it occupies precisely the same sort of position as the hammer in Mahler 6 (or the breathing sounds in Tippett 4) - that is, as an extra-musical symbol of something that exists at or beyond the borders of the music proper. ... In VW 7, we have an extra-musical symbol of 'Nature' (in its rawest, most dangerous state) - and it has to be extra-musical in order to evoke that inhuman world which is far beyond, and oblivious to, human concerns. To suggest that the singers would be an acceptable substitute shows a lack of understanding of the musics' fundamental dialectic.

Sure is a shame I don't understand the music's fundamental dialectic the way you do!

Orchestral music conjuring grand, lonely, inhuman vistas of icy wilderness; Singers evoking the eerie call of the wind, the only "voice" to be heard in this desolate place. Powerful stuff, which I think covers everything you say the wind machine is needed for.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 01:03:12 AM
Sounds a bit facile to me, I'm afraid. The voice is by definition the most human of instruments, and what VW wants here is inhumanity, or, rather, absence of humanity. He needs a shocking symbol to acheive this, something exterior to the normal range of orchestral or vocal sound. somethin 'other'. This is why the wind machine is used here, and for similar reasons in Messiaen's Des Canyons.... for instance. It's only in e.g the Alpine Symphony that its use is purely literal - perhaps not even there, though I'd hesitate to make that argument.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2008, 01:52:38 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 01:03:12 AM
The voice is by definition the most human of instruments, and what VW wants here is inhumanity, or, rather, absence of humanity. He needs a shocking symbol to achieve this, something exterior to the normal range of orchestral or vocal sound. something 'other'.

Precisely. Vaughan Williams doesn't want 'art', he wants to conjure up something that stands apart from culture and human heroism (or folly). The very uncivilized wind machine is perfectly suited. And it is not as if he would have been unable to do it in the more 'musical' way.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 03:37:40 AM
To add to the list of major works using wind machine - Enescu's Vox Maris, and his masterpiece opera Oedipe (which also has a part for musical saw, for pistol shots and for recorded nightingale a la Respighi). Enescu's music is of unprecedented orchestral subtlety - he easily ranks with the finest orchestrators of all, alongside Strauss and Ravel. If the wind machine was good enough for them, it's good enough full stop, IMO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sean on September 08, 2008, 04:19:36 AM
Luke, I'd love to lock horns with you on some of the points/ opinions you raise but I've only got time to say hello here...

The Fourth symph breathing is probably a misjudgement but the work is likely his most successful in his late style of shifting surface detail. I always thought symphs 1-2 remarkable documents charting English tonal dissolution, really interesting music.

I can't rate Tippett as highly as you though and don't seriously feel he ever surpassed Concerto for double string orchestra.

Must rush.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 04:48:02 AM
That's alright Sean, you can't be right about everything  ;D

Actually, though, you might be right - maybe Tippett never did surpass the Double Concerto, a marvelous work in all respects. But he equalled it, IMO, more than once. In the same sense, perhaps, (and trying to keep OT!) maybe VW never wrote anything finer than the Tallis Fantasia. But he wrote works which were its equal.

To be honest, this might be the place to say that I agree with you about the breathing in the 4th. It may well be a mistake, and I don't really like it myself. But what's irked me in previous posts is the eager rush to pounce on this sort of thing in order to be able to damn a great musician or reject them summarily - as an 'imbecile' in Tippett's case. It's as if some here are on the lookout for signs of fallibility in a composer* so that they can flock around it, maybe laugh at it, and somehow prove that their own musical sense is superior. Seems hubristic, opportunistic, ungrateful and disrespectful to me.

Personally, I feel that if the composer has earned the trust of others who I myself trust then he's probably worth persevering with; if he's earned my respect in the past but a new-to-me work seems to fall short, then I will try to presume that I'm simply unequipped to follow the composer down his new path, not that he's lost the plot. Composers are more deeply involved in their own craft than anyone else can be, they don't write parts for e.g. 'breathing noises' without thinking the idea through more deeply than any of us have done, and it's ridiculous to simply cast them aside impatiently or denigrate them as soon as they do something like this which one doesn't 'get'.

*Tippett is fallible - beautifully so. It's because he's such an honest and open composer - he doesn't play safe or hedge his bets. That's why even his 'mistakes' are effective and touching. It's also why he's an easy target. for those who feel the need to have a pop at someone great.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on September 08, 2008, 05:36:41 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 04:48:02 AM
*Tippett is fallible - beautifully so. It's because he's such an honest and open composer - he doesn't play safe or hedge his bets. That's why even his 'mistakes' are effective and touching. It's also why he's an easy target. for those who feel the need to have a pop at someone great.
I totally agree here. Tippett's one of those few composers whom I love in part because of his mistakes, not despite them. (Berwald would be another.)

Very much OT, but I think one of the best uses I've heard of the wind machine is in Scelsi's I Presagi, where the frantic, near-apocalyptic brass writing is eventually drowned out by the white noise of the wind machine. I find it highly effective even on CD: live, the effect is even more impressive.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 08, 2008, 05:50:43 AM
The wind-machine in the Sinfonia antartica never bothered me, that I can think.  And apart from an initial (isolated) hearing (a Previn recording, I think) in Rochester when I just didn't 'take' to it . . . the piece has always felt to me like a proper symphony, not at all like a concert-work salvaged from film music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 08, 2008, 06:27:28 AM
The wind machine in VW's 7th has never bothered me either. From my first hearing (probably forty years ago) it seemed a perfectly suitable "percussive" effect given the programmatic nature of the music. There are many examples of symphonic music making use of "non-musical" instruments, not just Mahler's hammer but the ratchet, anvil, whip, pistol, etc.

The breathing in Tippett's Fourth is used both percussively (at least I think so) and as weird song: inhuman sound and the most human sound. It's not only unique but, I think, highly effective. Love that Fourth.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 08, 2008, 06:31:43 AM
Luke, tried to PM you but your inbox is full.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 08, 2008, 06:39:02 AM
One of the 'facts of orchestration' demonstrated by the Vaughan Williams Pastoral and Sinfonia antartica (and the Nielsen Sinfonia espansiva, and I imagine the Tippett Fourth) is that un-texted vocalise makes the voice as an instrument something quite other than, well, the medium of text-delivery . . . and that, as a timbral resource, the 'range' of the voice, or of a choir, is appreciably broadened.

But of course, we knew this in part already thanks to Tchaikovsky's Waltz of the Snowflakes, and Ravel's Daphnis
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 08, 2008, 06:54:12 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 08, 2008, 06:39:02 AM
One of the 'facts of orchestration' demonstrated by the Vaughan Williams Pastoral and Sinfonia antartica (and the Nielsen Sinfonia espansiva, and I imagine the Tippett Fourth) is that un-texted vocalise makes the voice as an instrument something quite other than, well, the medium of text-delivery . . . and that, as a timbral resource, the 'range' of the voice, or of a choir, is appreciably broadened.

Yes, good point.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 07:33:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 08, 2008, 06:31:43 AM
Luke, tried to PM you but your inbox is full.

Sarge

You can try again now if you're still wanting to!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 08:15:13 AM
Chamber much more interesting than solo piano, though I'm not really the one to tell you about it. There's a discussion about it approx. 15 pages back.  To be honest, James, I find it hard to imagine you liking it, not because of a fault in either the music or in you, but simply going by your own priorities as you've expressed them before - I don't see VW slotting alongside these very comfortably. Nevertheless, it's fine music and worth spending time on - hopefully I'm wrong.

But in the final analysis, the middle symphonies are the centre of VW's output and are the pieces that best lead to an understanding of him, I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 08, 2008, 08:44:24 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 01:03:12 AM
Sounds a bit facile to me, I'm afraid. The voice is by definition the most human of instruments, and what VW wants here is inhumanity, or, rather, absence of humanity. He needs a shocking symbol to acheive this, something exterior to the normal range of orchestral or vocal sound. somethin 'other'. This is why the wind machine is used here, and for similar reasons in Messiaen's Des Canyons.... for instance. It's only in e.g the Alpine Symphony that its use is purely literal - perhaps not even there, though I'd hesitate to make that argument.

if VW wants something inhuman, there is nothing that makes trombones, trumpets, horns, oboes, clarinets, violins, etc, more human than a wind machine.  Something exterior to the normal range of orchestral sound can be a novel harmony, orchestration, etc.  In the Anactica (as well as in the Alpine) it is just an imitative sound effect.   It makes sense in a dramatic context (the thunder and anvils in Rheingold) but in a symphony I find it silly. 

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 09:04:48 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 08, 2008, 08:44:24 AM
if VW wants something inhuman, there is nothing that makes trombones, trumpets, horns, oboes, clarinets, violins, etc, more human than a wind machine.  Something exterior to the normal range of orchestral sound can be a novel harmony, orchestration, etc.  In the Anactica (as well as in the Alpine) it is just an imitative sound effect.   It makes sense in a dramatic context (the thunder and anvils in Rheingold) but in a symphony I find it silly. 

Where to start?

In the Antarctica the wind machine is not merely imitative, it is also symbolic, like (I'll say it again) the hammer in Mahler 6 - the context is dramatic. In the Alpine it is imitative - I could make an argument that it isn't but I wouldn't believe it myself - but what's the problem with that: it's good fun, and despite its name that piece is not really aiming at true the same kind of symphonism IMO.

The fact that we are so used to 'trombones, trumpets, horns, oboes, clarinets, violins, etc', and to the human faces of their players, and to the fact that they play in an expressive manner, and that they play music which is so clearly a human construct - all of those things make these instruments human. The wind machine is a freak, an instrument we hardly ever hear,  whose sound is essentially a natural one, uninflected by human harmony, or melody, or by association with human activity. Quite plainly VW wished to choose an instrument that sits totally apart from the rest of the orchestra, so as to create this striking dichotomy between the human and the inhuman - and quite plainly he succeeded, otherwise you wouldn't be making this fuss about it. You think the wind machine is out of place, and that's just what VW wanted it to be. If' he'd chosen to represent the wind with a trombone, you wouldn't be commenting - and he would clearly have failed to find an instrumental equivalent for 'the Other'.

'Something exterior to the normal range of orchestral sound can be a novel harmony, orchestration, etc.' Yes, possibly - and the wind machine is one such novel orchestration; its sound creates one such novel harmony. Please tell me how you would depict something totally alien, inhuman and other in a piece of this sort.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: James on September 08, 2008, 09:03:48 AM
i have had those for many years, yeah... not my thing you're right.

Thought not. that's fair enough. It pains me to say it, then, but I suspect you might as well steer clear of the chamber music too!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 08, 2008, 09:12:43 AM
Quote from: James on September 08, 2008, 09:03:48 AM
i have had those for many years, yeah... not my thing you're right.

Move along, nothing to see here   $:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 08, 2008, 09:33:17 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 09:04:48 AM
The fact that we are so used to 'trombones, trumpets, horns, oboes, clarinets, violins, etc', and to the human faces of their players, and to the fact that they play in an expressive manner, and that they play music which is so clearly a human construct - all of those things make these instruments human. The wind machine is a freak, an instrument we hardly ever hear,  whose sound is essentially a natural one, uninflected by human harmony, or melody, or by association with human activity. Quite plainly VW wished to choose an instrument that sits totally apart from the rest of the orchestra, so as to create this striking dichotomy between the human and the inhuman - and quite plainly he succeeded, otherwise you wouldn't be making this fuss about it. You think the wind machine is out of place, and that's just what VW wanted it to be. If' he'd chosen to represent the wind with a trombone, you wouldn't be commenting - and he would clearly have failed to find an instrumental equivalent for 'the Other'.

Good point. "Non-musical" sound effects have been used in music for a very long time, and basically, all non-pitch percussion instruments go in that direction anyway. The wind machine isn't anything more "exotic" or outrageous than the "zzzzzing" effect of drawing a metal stick across a suspended cymbal (as heard to great effect in La Mer) or many other similar unusual sound effects, like the "Ratsche" (dunno what that's called in English) which is used in Till E. (the thing with a handle and a spinning part which makes that funny "krrrrrrrrrr" sound), or the woodblocks in Shostakovich 4 which create that madly gallopping effect.
I think it is silly to categorically dismiss the use of such effects, what counts is if it works in the context or not. In the pieces I know (like Don Quixote, Alpensinfonie, Daphnis et Chloé) I think it works great. I don't know the Sinfonia Antarctica, but now I am curious to hear it even though my first VW expedition did not make me very interested to hear more of his music at this time.

BTW, the first time I actually saw a wind machine
(http://www.natf.org/wad/pix/wind_machine.gif)
was in 1987 when the LAP came to Berlin and played Don Quixote (that was on the same weekend that the BP played Zarathustra under Karajan, the performance that's on the Sony DVD, these concerts were part of the city's 750th anniversary celebration - LA is a partner city of Berlin). I had never seen it before because at that time, the BP used a wind sound recorded on tape and played back through speakers in the hall. So the percussionist basically sat there and operated the fader on the tape deck...in later performances of the Alpensinfonie, with Mehta and Jansons, they used the hand-cranked wind machine.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 09:36:30 AM

Ratsche = rattle, in the sense of a football rattle, not a baby's one!

M, I'm curious - I know nothing about the 'thunder machine' used in the Alpine Symphony - presumably you've seen it more than once. How is it constructed and how does it work? Or is it simply a 'thunder sheet'?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on September 08, 2008, 10:44:26 AM
Thundersheet - usually shaken, sometimes hit with a stick.

(http://www.coepercussion.com/navythunder.jpg)

(http://www.atlantapropercussion.com/DOTWphotos/catalogphotos/sabianphotos/thundersheet.gif)
they come in bronze aswell...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on September 08, 2008, 10:55:25 AM
Poor RVW...( we'll come back to you later) :here's a percussion set up for Alpine symph.


(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/129/379781117_4a8d54615f.jpg?v=0)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on September 08, 2008, 10:57:33 AM
The thunder sheet is at the left...


(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/379781675_4f4ff7ab36.jpg?v=0)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 08, 2008, 10:58:50 AM
Where are those pictures from?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 08, 2008, 11:03:11 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 09:36:30 AM
Ratsche = rattle

Or ratchet.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on September 08, 2008, 11:09:04 AM


Mark Jutton's photostream  at Flickr
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 11:12:13 AM
It's just that the score talks about a thunder machine, not a sheet, so I wondered if there was a difference. Or if, in fact, there is no such thing as a thunder machine and anything making an appropriate noise is acceptable.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on September 08, 2008, 11:25:36 AM
AFAIK, a thundersheet = thundermachine. It is always a (very) large sheet of ( rather thin) metal rattled, shaken and /or hit by a hammer or a stick.

I've seen the Dresden Gewandhaus Orch in Strauss Alpine symph. The thundersheet was almost 2.5 meters high.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 08, 2008, 11:35:07 AM
Quote from: pjme on September 08, 2008, 11:25:36 AM
AFAIK, a thundersheet = thundermachine. It is always a (very) large sheet of ( rather thin) metal rattled, shaken and /or hit by a hammer or a stick.

I've seen the Dresden Gewandhaus Orch in Strauss Alpine symph. The thundersheet was almost 2.5 meters high.

There is no Gewandhaus in Dresden. It's in Leipzig. You have to make up your mind. Was that live or on video? With which conductor? And where are the pictures you posted from?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 11:42:55 AM
For the latter, he said already (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,220.msg224814.html#msg224814) - 'Mark Jutton's photostream at Flickr'
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 08, 2008, 11:43:16 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 11:12:13 AM
It's just that the score talks about a thunder machine, not a sheet, so I wondered if there was a difference. Or if, in fact, there is no such thing as a thunder machine and anything making an appropriate noise is acceptable.

There used to be a device which basically was a box filled with rocks that was suspended on a joint at the middle, and which could be rocked up and down like a see-saw with ropes going over pulleys. I read they have one of these at the Drottningholm Court Theater, but I have never seen one. There also used to be a thunder machine which looks similar to the wind machine and which is a drum filled with rocks and a lever to turn it. I don't know though if that is specifically what Strauss had in mind.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 11:47:36 AM
Quote from: M forever on September 08, 2008, 11:43:16 AM
There used to be a device which basically was a box filled with rocks that was suspended on a joint at the middle, and which could be rocked up and down like a see-saw with ropes going over pulleys. I read they have one of these at the Drottningholm Court Theater, but I have never seen one. There also used to be a thunder machine which looks similar to the wind machine and which is a drum filled with rocks and a lever to turn it. I don't know though if that is specifically what Strauss had in mind.

I was going to say that the latter sounds like the 'geophone' Messiaen asks for in Des canyons aux etoiles, but having checked with my score of that piece, it doesn't. The Geophone is a large, flat drum with very thin skins, filled with ball bearings (originally sand, I think) and played by being rocked from side to side. My wife has something very like this at her school, it turns out!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2008, 12:01:59 PM
From this page (http://www.orchestralibrary.com/reftables/perc.html) it appears 'thunder machine' and 'thunder sheet' are different things:

Thunder-machine - Machina di tuono - Machine à tonnerre - Donnermaschine

Thunder-sheet   

Wind-machine - Machina a venti - Machine à vent - Windmaschine
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 08, 2008, 12:10:29 PM
Oh, just record a rain-stick, and slow the tape down  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 12:46:23 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 08, 2008, 12:01:59 PM
From this page (http://www.orchestralibrary.com/reftables/perc.html) it appears 'thunder machine' and 'thunder sheet' are different things:

HB thought so too, so it must be true (from the HBS site):

QuoteBrian's handling of the other untuned percussion instruments is fairly conventional, although once again the Gothic provides a [???? something missing here ????] prescribed in Part Two, as are a thunder machine (Brian did not want the tinny thunder sheet that so often occurs and is so ineffectual) and a 'bird scare' (i.e. a football rattle - called 'scare crow' on page 184 of the published score).  However, for the vast majority of his works, Brian employs a normal section in the usual manner.  Thunder and wind machines turn up in Symphony no 10, and an Indian tabla in English Suite No 4,but these are exceptions.

I'd already mentioned the wind machine in Brian 10; I'd forgotten the thunder machine. The LSSO recording uses a thunder-sheet, though, despite Brian's preference - you can see it being played by them in the 10th's 'storm', about four or five minutes into this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh92aJJOw_Y&feature=related), the second of three parts of the 'Unknown Warrior' HB documentary on youtube. I used to rehearse in that same hall too...

Could it look less exciting than it does here?  ;D



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2008, 01:51:09 PM
That quote looks like something by Malcolm MacDonald, from volume 3 of his Brian study...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 01:53:25 PM
It does, but it's not (http://www.havergalbrian.org/percussion.htm)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on September 08, 2008, 01:55:02 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 08, 2008, 11:35:07 AM
There is no Gewandhaus in Dresden. It's in Leipzig. You have to make up your mind. Was that live or on video? With which conductor? And where are the pictures you posted from?

;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 08, 2008, 02:14:09 PM
I saw the link to those pics, but I am wondering which of the two orchestras you saw, with whom?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sean on September 08, 2008, 05:11:18 PM
Alright there Luke, some interesting lines there.

QuoteIn the same sense, perhaps, (and trying to keep OT!) maybe VW never wrote anything finer than the Tallis Fantasia. But he wrote works which were its equal.

Tippett's trouble was that he changed his style too much without feeling the same artistic assurance about what he was doing. The later bitty prolix style as in a work like The Mask of time skirts the arbitrary and is a long way from the unpretentious cogency of the Conc for DSO, and again in the similar tough gritty glittery stuff of the Piano concerto and King Priam etc it's a lot easier to sense than really experience whatever logic may be there. I'll take The Midsummer marriage.

QuoteBut what's irked me in previous posts is the eager rush to pounce on this sort of thing in order to be able to damn a great musician or reject them summarily

Sure thing. By the way I had a record of #4 on LP once but don't remember the performers, but later bought the Solti cycle on CD, coupled with the Suite in D for birthday of Prince Charles- which I also studied for music 'O' level in 1984-5!! I remember the teacher remarking on the number of time signature changes, and the overall complexity- but of course it's a marvellous piece that resolves itself and works well.

Quote...if he's earned my respect in the past but a new-to-me work seems to fall short, then I will try to presume that I'm simply unequipped to follow the composer down his new path, not that he's lost the plot.

Okay, though I rather like my own judgement too(!) and it's typical of all artists to shine for a while but then lose that level of insight... Whatever though!

And, I've a feeling I've covered some of those points in the past. Oh well. I'd like to widen the picture of Tippett though by getting into more of the SQs- I've only got hold of the Second, a well-wrought effort.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 08, 2008, 06:04:33 PM
Is the theme in the "Wasps" overture which begins after the "waspy" introduction after about 1 minute an original theme or a quote?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 08, 2008, 07:36:45 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 09:04:48 AM
Quite plainly VW wished to choose an instrument that sits totally apart from the rest of the orchestra, so as to create this striking dichotomy between the human and the inhuman - and quite plainly he succeeded, otherwise you wouldn't be making this fuss about it. You think the wind machine is out of place, and that's just what VW wanted it to be. If' he'd chosen to represent the wind with a trombone, you wouldn't be commenting - and he would clearly have failed to find an instrumental equivalent for 'the Other'.

Does anyone know what the composer himself said about this? Did he say it was "symbolic"? Not sure I believe Luke's mindreading act...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 08, 2008, 07:48:55 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 08, 2008, 06:04:33 PM
Is the theme in the "Wasps" overture which begins after the "waspy" introduction after about 1 minute an original theme or a quote?

For what it's worth, the notes for the recording I have say that the Overture to the Wasps does not contain any folk song quotes.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 08, 2008, 07:54:42 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 09:04:48 AM
The wind machine is a freak, an instrument we hardly ever hear,  whose sound is essentially a natural one, uninflected by human harmony, or melody, or by association with human activity. Quite plainly VW wished to choose an instrument that sits totally apart from the rest of the orchestra, so as to create this striking dichotomy between the human and the inhuman - and quite plainly he succeeded, otherwise you wouldn't be making this fuss about it. You think the wind machine is out of place, and that's just what VW wanted it to be. If' he'd chosen to represent the wind with a trombone, you wouldn't be commenting - and he would clearly have failed to find an instrumental equivalent for 'the Other'.

I do not see that the wind machine creates a "striking dichotomy" between human and inhuman.  It is an utterly banal device which is used ad-nauseum in film scores, film soundtracks, stage shows, etc.  I'm not making a fuss because I reject the "striking dichotomy" but because I am not impressed with corny stage effects being used to ruin what could have been a compelling piece of symphonic music.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 08, 2008, 09:23:21 PM
Can you cite concrete examples of where the wind machine is used in film scores? Other instruments are used in film scores all the time, too. Does that make them "banal" as such? I don't think so. Where does it say that naturalistic sound effects are forbidden (although one could argue that the wind machine is more symbolic than naturalistic because it deosn't really quite sound like wind, or rather, wind can make a very wide variety of sounds.
Sorry, dude, what Mr O says makes way, way, way more sense than your narrowminded, prejudiced and generalized "opinion". When composers of the stature of Strauss, Ravel, or even Vaughan Williams who I am not particularly fond of find interesting ways to use it, then scarpia's "opinion" is diminished to a value very near zero.

Quote from: scarpia on September 08, 2008, 07:48:55 PM
For what it's worth, the notes for the recording I have say that the Overture to the Wasps does not contain any folk song quotes.

Thanks, but that's not worth anything. I need an answer from somebody who actually knows the answer from knowing the musical substance, not someone who read something somewhere. And, I did not specifically ask just for "folk song quotes" anyway.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 08, 2008, 10:52:28 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 08, 2008, 07:54:42 PMIt is an utterly banal device which is used ad-nauseum in film scores, film soundtracks, stage shows, etc. 

No. It is used in films etc. as a sound effect among many others, not in a musical context! If you can't see the difference (which is what I must assume from your words), then there's no use explaining how using a technical device (in the Antartica, or elsewhere) can make musical sense.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 11:30:21 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 08, 2008, 07:36:45 PM
Does anyone know what the composer himself said about this? Did he say it was "symbolic"? Not sure I believe Luke's mindreading act...


Well, I don't have access to VW's writings, but all others I can find who go into the subject in any depth at all agree with me. And I must say that an inability to hear the wind machine as doing anything more than 'imitating the wind' can only appear to be somewhat deficient in poetic sympathy. (I return to Mahler 6? Is the hammer only referring to Mahler's love of DIY?) Anyway, here's Wilfrid Mellers; I start my quotation obliquely to the subject, but you'll see why:

Quote from: MellersRiders to the Sea was scored for a noraml small orchestra with the addition of a sea-machine - which might be considered a contradiction in terms since it represents elemental Nature, as opposed to anything man-made, let alone mechanistic. The Seventh Symphony [includes] a wind-machine. The purpose of the abnormal instruments is much the same as that of the sea-machine in Riders....now, as nature's supernatural instruments appear....this paragraph is Nature herself, not so much mimical to as oblivious of him. So the duality of sonata is manifest in a peculiarly direct from

Mellers goes on in this way throughout his discussion of the symphony, but I'll stop there because that last point is so important - it emphasizes that VW integrates the wind machine (and the other 'magic instruments') into a purely symphonic, sonata structure, in a 'peculiarly direct form'. Too direct, it seems, for those who can't hear beyond 'it sounds like the wind'.

Michael Kennedy gives early reviews of the symphony who agree on this point, e.g.:

Quote from: Frank Howes[VW] has broken new ground, not in the fact that he uses a larger orchestra, but that he has found in sheer sonority devoid of thematic significance a means of conveying his vision and placing it within a symphonic scheme.

And so on. I don'thave time right now to type out more, but there are plenty. The point is, the wind-machine does sound like the wind, of course it does - and perhaps even VW himself was unsure about the suitability of this. But the symphony turns it into more than this - the dialectic which every symphony needs is in this case Man-Nature, as all critics I have read agree, and the wind-machine as an extreme example of the latter, the ultimate negation of Man, is thus perfectly well integrated into symphonic form.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2008, 11:43:40 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 11:30:21 PM
(I return to Mahler 6? Is the hammer only referring to Mahler's love of DIY?)

Yes. What else? Fate?! Utterly simplistic. It spoils the Sixth for me.

;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 09, 2008, 12:14:20 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 08, 2008, 11:30:21 PMWell, I don't have access to VW's writings, but all others I can find who go into the subject in any depth at all agree with me. And I must say that an inability to hear the wind machine as doing anything more than 'imitating the wind' can only appear to be somewhat deficient in poetic sympathy. (I return to Mahler 6? Is the hammer only referring to Mahler's love of DIY?) Anyway, here's Wilfrid Mellers; I start my quotation obliquely to the subject, but you'll see why:

Quote from: MellersRiders to the Sea was scored for a noraml small orchestra with the addition of a sea-machine - which might be considered a contradiction in terms since it represents elemental Nature, as opposed to anything man-made, let alone mechanistic. The Seventh Symphony [includes] a wind-machine. The purpose of the abnormal instruments is much the same as that of the sea-machine in Riders....now, as nature's supernatural instruments appear....this paragraph is Nature herself, not so much mimical to as oblivious of him. So the duality of sonata is manifest in a peculiarly direct from
Mellers goes on in this way throughout his discussion of the symphony, but I'll stop there because that last point is so important - it emphasizes that VW integrates the wind machine (and the other 'magic instruments') into a purely symphonic, sonata structure, in a 'peculiarly direct form'. Too direct, it seems, for those who can't hear beyond 'it sounds like the wind'.

Michael Kennedy gives early reviews of the symphony who agree on this point, e.g.:

Quote from: Frank Howes[VW] has broken new ground, not in the fact that he uses a larger orchestra, but that he has found in sheer sonority devoid of thematic significance a means of conveying his vision and placing it within a symphonic scheme.
And so on. I don'thave time right now to type out more, but there are plenty. The point is, the wind-machine does sound like the wind, of course it does - and perhaps even VW himself was unsure about the suitability of this. But the symphony turns it into more than this - the dialectic which every symphony needs is in this case Man-Nature, as all critics I have read agree, and the wind-machine as an extreme example of the latter, the ultimate negation of Man, is thus perfectly well integrated into symphonic form.

I'm afraid argument from authority won't work on me. There is no evidence to assert that the wind machine sound embodies some (remarkably specific) concept of Nature - this is just metaphysical hot air. This idea might be more creditable if RVW hadn't called the work "Antartica" and appended a quote from Scott's diary - then the symphony might be seen as an allegorical treatment of the themes you have mentioned. But RVW was too specific, and the sound of the wind is just that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 12:38:34 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 09, 2008, 12:14:20 AM
I'm afraid argument from authority won't work on me. There is no evidence to assert that the wind machine sound embodies some (remarkably specific) concept of Nature - this is just metaphysical hot air. This idea might be more creditable if RVW hadn't called the work "Antartica" and appended a quote from Scott's diary - then the symphony might be seen as an allegorical treatment of the themes you have mentioned. But RVW was too specific, and the sound of the wind is just that.

Wow - 'no evidence', huh? That's quite a leap you make from the actual content of my post. Please note that I did specifically say that I don't have access to VW's writings; also that I specifically said I didn't have much time to write that post. Finally, note that VW was a composer, not a critic. Usually, composers do the music and others write about it. I have no idea whether VW wrote about this issue or not - he may well have done. But I'm pretty certain that, had he been asked his views - 'Mr Vaughan Williams, is the wind-machine in your 7th solely an imitation of the wind, or does it represent some larger idea? - I'm pretty certain that he'd have supported the latter interpretation. If he hadn't been in one of his sarcastic moods, that is  ;D

Again, no time to write more. I should be working.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 12:42:51 AM
I'd add though, that I don't find the concept of 'Nature/the non-human' to be 'remarkably specific'. It's a theme that has been used by composers on many occasions. Metaphysical perhaps - a lot of music works on this metaphysical level. But that doesn't make it hot air. Your pairing of the two terms is disingenuous, but it also suggests a suspicion of or lack of sympathy with anything non-explicit which explains your difficulties with this piece.

In any case, hot air would make a wind machine a health hazard, wouldn't it?

Don't forget, too, that this wind really does have more than meteorological connotations. This isn't some light breeze over the Trossachs, it is in a genuine sense, annihilation, and in annihilation we surely have a metaphysical concept that is worthy of expression. One can't but be aware of that when hearing it in the VW 7th, I'd have thought.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 09, 2008, 02:01:28 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 12:38:34 AM
Wow - 'no evidence', huh? That's quite a leap you make from the actual content of my post.

Well, you quoted those passages as proof of your assertion, and I'm just saying they don't really constitute evidence for your point.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 12:38:34 AMFinally, note that VW was a composer, not a critic.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qoZ4sxvsL._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Music-David-Manning/dp/0195182391)

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 12:42:51 AM
I'd add though, that I don't find the concept of 'Nature/the non-human' to be 'remarkably specific'. It's a theme that has been used by composers on many occasions.

By "specific", I was referring to your phrase "the wind-machine as an extreme example of the latter, the ultimate negation of Man", which is a rather specific attribution for this sound-effect.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 12:42:51 AMMetaphysical perhaps - a lot of music works on this metaphysical level. But that doesn't make it hot air. Your pairing of the two terms is disingenuous, but it also suggests a suspicion of or lack of sympathy with anything non-explicit which explains your difficulties with this piece.

Sorry, I should have been clear that by "metaphysical hot air" I was referring to the deliberations of the critics, metaphysics being speculation on things that are beyond the "real" and therefore unfalsifiable. Music certainly can speak to our sense of the metaphysical - my argument is that in this case the wind machine is a redundant, extra-musical device that hinders this.

...

We could go round and round like this, couldn't we! You'd better get back to work, Luke, and as for me...
"I am just going outside, and may be some time."

(http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0205/larsen03_rotts.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 02:22:57 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 09, 2008, 02:01:28 AM
Well, you quoted those passages as proof of your assertion, and I'm just saying they don't really constitute evidence for your point.

No, I quoted them as reinforcement that the way in which I've described the wind-machine's use - i.e not just as imitation of something specific (though also that) but as symbol of something larger and integral to the symphonic nature of the score - is the generally accepted one. And I made clear that what I posted wasn't a final answer, but a rushed gathering of a couple of available strands.

Quote from: eyeresist on September 09, 2008, 02:01:28 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qoZ4sxvsL._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Music-David-Manning/dp/0195182391)

Sure, he wrote - I have plenty of articles that he wrote myself. But it isn't his job to provide commentary on his own music. What's more, when pushed to do so, he was often deliberately obfuscatory, so as to leave 'interpreting' his music to others. Which is indeed why the interpretations of others, such as the respected sources I quoted above, are the most readily-available opinions to hand.

Quote from: eyeresist on September 09, 2008, 02:01:28 AM
By "specific", I was referring to your phrase "the wind-machine as an extreme example of the latter, the ultimate negation of Man", which is a rather specific attribution for this sound-effect.

Not really - in that particular context what I meant was, there are lots of 'nature sounds' in the piece, but the wind-machine is most extreme, the most literally natural. Which is why it occupies this privileged position at the diametric extreme from, say, the strings and winds.

Quote from: eyeresist on September 09, 2008, 02:01:28 AM
Sorry, I should have been clear that by "metaphysical hot air" I was referring to the deliberations of the critics, metaphysics being speculation on things that are beyond the "real" and therefore unfalsifiable. Music certainly can speak to our sense of the metaphysical - my argument is that in this case the wind machine is a redundant, extra-musical device that hinders this.

And that's where I disagree most strongly - with no wind-machine, VW would not have been able to create a dichotomy as extreme as he does. Having the wind imitated by any more standard source would have been the true hindrance, as the clarity of vision of this stark, shocking contrast between man and nature would have been obscured.

As M implied, and as I said earlier - we sometimes need to learn to trust the great composers. They really did know what they were doing, you know.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 09, 2008, 03:12:01 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 02:22:57 AM
Sure, he wrote - I have plenty of articles that he wrote myself. But it isn't his job to provide commentary on his own music. What's more, when pushed to do so, he was often deliberately obfuscatory, so as to leave 'interpreting' his music to others. Which is indeed why the interpretations of others, such as the respected sources I quoted above, are the most readily-available opinions to hand.

Creative artists are rarely good analysts of their own work. Thomas Mann wrote analyses of his novels as to prevent literary scientists from misintrepreting them - not a good idea.

The above-mentioned book does contain notes by RVW on his symphonies, but they're performance booklet texts limited to the overall structure of the pieces.

Indeed, when hard-pressed by interviewers, he deliberately clouded the issues in question by vague and misleading remarks.

QuoteWe sometimes need to learn to trust the great composers.

And he certainly was one of them.   :D

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 09, 2008, 03:39:37 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 08, 2008, 07:54:42 PM
I do not see that the wind machine creates a "striking dichotomy" between human and inhuman.

I do;  there is a ready sonic contrast between the choral vocalise and the 'noise device'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 09, 2008, 03:42:46 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 02:22:57 AM
No, I quoted them as reinforcement that the way in which I've described the wind-machine's use - i.e not just as imitation of something specific (though also that) but as symbol of something larger and integral to the symphonic nature of the score - is the generally accepted one. And I made clear that what I posted wasn't a final answer, but a rushed gathering of a couple of available strands.

Sure, he wrote - I have plenty of articles that he wrote myself. But it isn't his job to provide commentary on his own music. What's more, when pushed to do so, he was often deliberately obfuscatory, so as to leave 'interpreting' his music to others. Which is indeed why the interpretations of others, such as the respected sources I quoted above, are the most readily-available opinions to hand.

Good sense.

If a composer has to spend all his time explicating his music to the satisfaction of everyone, he'll have no time for his creative work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: ChamberNut on September 09, 2008, 04:36:06 AM
Hello, I'd like to become a 'Vaughanerite'!  :D

I only have 1 RVW disc so far (Naxos String Quartets and Fantasia Quintet, Maggini Quartet) which I absolulety adore.  Sarge, have you had a chance to listen to this yet?

Last night, after hearing portions of Symphony No. 6 and 'Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis', consider me a fan!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 04:41:01 AM
Well, I'm not at work now - though I will be at it again in a few hours - and on the drive home I was pondering this whole issue of wind-machines etc. This isn't addressed to anyone, nor is it meant to be argumentative in any way - it's only a few points that occurred to me as I drove. Apologies to those who think I'm taking a small issue too far - but the details of instrumental association and aesthetics are interesting to me. They're something we normally only sense when we listen, but it's fascinating to try to pry them apart and examine them a little.

1) First off, there is the mysterious fact that both VW's eventually-annihilatory wind-machine and Tippett's birth-to-death breathing sounds use a timbre that is, effectively, pretty close to white noise. I wonder idly if any other type of sound would do; bluntly, if wind went wibble-wibble instead of whoosh-whoosh, would it still be a suitable symbol of inhuman emptiness?  ;D

It's perhaps not as ridiculous a question as it seems. When composers, especially romantic composers, want to represent this contact with a world of non-existence - in other words, usually, with Death* or the supernatural - haven't they more often than not chosen a stroke of the tam-tam to do so (Strauss, Tchaikovsky etc. etc)?  The tam-tam per se isn't associated with Death, AFAIK - but its timbre evidently is, and what it is that produces these connotations seems to me to be the acoustical qualities of this mysterious timbre, full yet soft, not harmonically rooted but vibrating in all areas of the spectrum, a pulsating world of otherness - again, something in the same sort of area as white noise.** Viewing things from this perspective again reinforces for me the idea that what VW wanted the wind machine for was not just the sound of the wind, but this quasi-white-noise sound of emptiness and otherness, as used by other means by previous composers.

2) And that brings me towards my second point, already hinted at by M - 'by other means'. That's all a wind-machine is, I think - a means. It's an instrument, whose place is in an orchestra and nowhere else. Importantly, it has a very specific sound, and is usable only in a narrow range of contexts. This means it exists right at the extreme periphery of the orchestra. But an orchestral instrument it remains. Now, a composer who really wants the sound of the wind and nothing else could use a recording - as VW could certainly have done. It seems to me, therefore, that what he wants is  something that exists right at the edge of the orchestral impedimenta, but which nevertheless just about belongs there.

The point is that, as an orchestral instrument, the wind-machine only sounds like the wind to a certain extent - it retains enough abstract instrumental properties easily to be able to exist as a symbol of other things too (as it also does in other works besides the VW 7th). In this it's like the sirens in Varese, which similarly are more an abstraction of the idea of 'siren' than they are like genuine everyday sirens. In Ionisation, for instance, the sirens may tangentially remind us of police cars or air-raid warnings, but more than anything else they bring associations which impart an atmosphere of harder-to-define symbolism - symbolism of danger, apprehension, menace.  And I'd suggest that, just as the wind-machine brings associations of emptiness/otherness not just because it sounds like the wind but because it is a 'white-noise' sort of sound, so the sirens in Varese don't only suggest apprehension because they may remind us of the emergency services! There's also something in those alien glissandi which necessarily goes hand-in-hand with crescendi and decrescendi, sometimes sharp, lurching and aggressive, sometimes slow and threatening....

3) The third point is not really to do with the wind-machine at all, but just to do with something hinted at above - the choice to use, or not to use, a recording of a natural phenomenon rather than a close orchestral simulation. VW chose the latter course, maybe for the reasons I'm guessing at. But occasionally composers have chosen to introduce recordings of the 'thing itself', with greater or lesser effectiveness. I think this must be a very hard trick to bring off.

In Pines of Rome, famously, Respighi uses a recording of a nightingale. I think I'm right in saying that there hasn't always been a consensus of opinion as to whether he was justified in so doing. It's perfectly easy to make the case that this is a cop-out, that Respighi could equally have provided a purely orchestral nightingale as other composers have done - that's the same argument that was put forward here re. VW and his wind-machine. But it seems to me that there is a deeper level to the use of the recording, one that I actually find quite touching - it seems to me that there is something like a quasi-religious reverence and awe going here, as if Respighi is putting up his hands, walking away and saying 'I'm not even going to attempt this one - it's too beautiful; let it speak for itself.' And it works - this musical 'frame' Respighi creates is so magically hushed, and the intrusion of a real bird into it makes it extraordinarily privileged.*** 'This is too special to be imitated', the music says.

And yet, what holds true for the Respighi doesn't necessarily hold true for other music. Alan Hovhaness's And God Created Great Whales works in a similar way, with self-explanatory zoological substitution - but the piece itself, IMHO, is a comparative failure. Perhaps that was always going to be the case, given the sound to be used; perhaps the fault lies with Hovhaness, who doesn't IMO provide his whales with the same privileged environment that Respighi creates for his nightingale.


*Forgive the Mellers-ian capitalisation. I find it clarifies concepts for me if for no one else!
**One might expect that a bell would be a better symbol of Death, in fact - because it has ritualistic associations with funerals etc - and of course it is often used in this sense. But a bell has a much stronger fundamental than a tam-tam which take it further away from a dense mysterious mass of approximately white-noise sound, and I have a feeling that this is the reason that is not often used to depict the first contact with Death itself so much as with the rituals which surround Death.
*** Only true if the orchestra is amenable - I've heard horror stories about this, such as the time my wife was in the orchestra for this piece, and someone replaced the nightingale tape with one of helicopters taking off....  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2008, 04:41:56 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 09, 2008, 04:36:06 AM
I only have 1 RVW disc so far (Naxos String Quartets and Fantasia Quintet, Maggini Quartet) which I absolulety adore.  Sarge, have you had a chance to listen to this yet?

I've only heard the G minor so far (during dinner the other night). After it ended I didn't want to force more chamber music on the long-suffering Mrs. Rock so we switched to orchestral music after the quartet.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 09, 2008, 04:45:03 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 09, 2008, 04:36:06 AM
Hello, I'd like to become a 'Vaughanerite'!  :D

I only have 1 RVW disc so far (Naxos String Quartets and Fantasia Quintet, Maggini Quartet) which I absolulety adore.  Sarge, have you had a chance to listen to this yet?

Last night, after hearing portions of Symphony No. 6 and 'Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis', consider me a fan!  :)

Certainly a strong start, ChN!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: ChamberNut on September 09, 2008, 04:45:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2008, 04:41:56 AM
I've only heard the G minor so far (during dinner the other night). After it ended I didn't want to force more chamber music on the long-suffering Mrs. Rock so we switched to orchestral music after the quartet.

Sarge

I see.  So Mrs. Rock is not a 'ChamberRock', so to speak?  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: ChamberNut on September 09, 2008, 04:50:09 AM
I see that the 'Vaughn Williams Veranda' is the most active (unlocked) thread in the 'Composer Discussion' forum!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2008, 05:12:08 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 09, 2008, 04:45:14 AM
I see.  So Mrs. Rock is not a 'ChamberRock', so to speak?  ;D

No, she isn't. Chamber music doesn't appeal to her, not even the chamber music of composer's she loves (like Dvorak, Brahms, Schumann, Prokofiev). She's prefers opera and orchestal works, and medieval/renaissance song and choral music. The one exception I can think of is chamber music from the 17th and early 18th centuries. This, for example, is one of her favorite CDs: music by Matteis, Blow, Purcell, Geminiani:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/julygmg/PalEns.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on September 09, 2008, 05:23:31 AM
Variazioni senza tema.

Another misleading statement from RVW, this time about the first movement of his Symphony no. 8 in D minor*. Although the movement proceeds through 7 distinct episodes resembling variations (plus a coda), there is clearly a theme, one that you couldn't miss for all the world: the very first four notes, stated by a solo trumpet. D-G-E-A. It is extended by a flute solo which obtains thematic significance in later variations. There is a contrasting idea for the strings, using RVW's characteristic 3rd-related sequence of minor chords and a return to the D-G-E-A motive. Each variation is a little ABA form, then.

The third variation is a lyrical episode (the four notes appear in the bass) in, whadayaknow, A major. It retains the ABA form of the variations, but it also turns out to be a Second Theme in a larger sonata design. Sure enough, the 7th variation is a recap of this material, coming to a climax in D major.

Far from being a formless lump, the first movement of RVW's 8th symphony has managed to simultaneously satisfy the requirements of two of the standard forms of western music.


* On second thought maybe the statement is not really meant to mislead, but is simply easy to misinterpret. It is possible that the indication "variazioni senza tema" means that RVW simply wanted the listener to regard the opening episode as an integral part of the variation process, the first variation rather than a stand-alone theme to be subjected to variations.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on September 09, 2008, 05:25:26 AM
As always Luke, very insightful.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on September 09, 2008, 05:30:23 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 09, 2008, 05:23:31 AM
Variazioni senza tema.

* On second thought maybe the statement is not really meant to mislead, but is simply easy to misinterpret. It is possible that the indication "variazioni senza tema" means that RVW simply wanted the listener to regard the opening episode as an integral part of the variation process, the first variation rather than a stand-alone theme to be subjected to variations.

Your footnote is exactly how I have interpreted it.  Consider the title, "Variazoni".  Typically, this implies a statement of the theme, but Vaughan Williams doesn't really give us that, the first section is already a variation.  Perhaps a more correct title would be, "Tema con variazioni senza tema"
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 09, 2008, 10:47:52 AM
It seems to me too bizarre coincidence that Vaughan Williams principally wanted a sound that would be inhuman or outside the world of the orchestra and by coincidence he chose a wind machine in this piece about a windy place.  He could have picked an air-raid siren, a door buzzer, a steam whistle, a hair dryer, a diesel engine.  By chance he picked a wind machine to evoke the inhumanity of the wind, and this has nothing to do with the fact that is sounds like wind.  It is supposed to produce a shocking inhuman presence (the sight of a personal turning a crank is more inhuman than the sight of a person blowing into a metal tube) despite the fact that everyone on this thread who watches movies has heard hundreds of recordings of a wind machine, which was not developed as a musical instrument, but is a standard tool of the Foley artists who provide the sound tracks of virtually all feature films.  If you've ever seen a movie with a windy scene, (the Wizard of Oz, for instance) you've heard a wind machine.

http://www.natf.org/wad/foley.htm

But no, this is not comparable to the music with a wind machine that we hear as the twister is coming for poor Dorothy, this is an existential statement.   ::)

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 04:41:01 AM
Well, I'm not at work now - though I will be at it again in a few hours - and on the drive home I was pondering this whole issue of wind-machines etc. This isn't addressed to anyone, nor is it meant to be argumentative in any way - it's only a few points that occurred to me as I drove. Apologies to those who think I'm taking a small issue too far - but the details of instrumental association and aesthetics are interesting to me. They're something we normally only sense when we listen, but it's fascinating to try to pry them apart and examine them a little.

1) First off, there is the mysterious fact that both VW's eventually-annihilatory wind-machine and Tippett's birth-to-death breathing sounds use a timbre that is, effectively, pretty close to white noise. I wonder idly if any other type of sound would do; bluntly, if wind went wibble-wibble instead of whoosh-whoosh, would it still be a suitable symbol of inhuman emptiness?  ;D

It's perhaps not as ridiculous a question as it seems. When composers, especially romantic composers, want to represent this contact with a world of non-existence - in other words, usually, with Death* or the supernatural - haven't they more often than not chosen a stroke of the tam-tam to do so (Strauss, Tchaikovsky etc. etc)?  The tam-tam per se isn't associated with Death, AFAIK - but its timbre evidently is, and what it is that produces these connotations seems to me to be the acoustical qualities of this mysterious timbre, full yet soft, not harmonically rooted but vibrating in all areas of the spectrum, a pulsating world of otherness - again, something in the same sort of area as white noise.** Viewing things from this perspective again reinforces for me the idea that what VW wanted the wind machine for was not just the sound of the wind, but this quasi-white-noise sound of emptiness and otherness, as used by other means by previous composers.

2) And that brings me towards my second point, already hinted at by M - 'by other means'. That's all a wind-machine is, I think - a means. It's an instrument, whose place is in an orchestra and nowhere else. Importantly, it has a very specific sound, and is usable only in a narrow range of contexts. This means it exists right at the extreme periphery of the orchestra. But an orchestral instrument it remains. Now, a composer who really wants the sound of the wind and nothing else could use a recording - as VW could certainly have done. It seems to me, therefore, that what he wants is  something that exists right at the edge of the orchestral impedimenta, but which nevertheless just about belongs there.

The point is that, as an orchestral instrument, the wind-machine only sounds like the wind to a certain extent - it retains enough abstract instrumental properties easily to be able to exist as a symbol of other things too (as it also does in other works besides the VW 7th). In this it's like the sirens in Varese, which similarly are more an abstraction of the idea of 'siren' than they are like genuine everyday sirens. In Ionisation, for instance, the sirens may tangentially remind us of police cars or air-raid warnings, but more than anything else they bring associations which impart an atmosphere of harder-to-define symbolism - symbolism of danger, apprehension, menace.  And I'd suggest that, just as the wind-machine brings associations of emptiness/otherness not just because it sounds like the wind but because it is a 'white-noise' sort of sound, so the sirens in Varese don't only suggest apprehension because they may remind us of the emergency services! There's also something in those alien glissandi which necessarily goes hand-in-hand with crescendi and decrescendi, sometimes sharp, lurching and aggressive, sometimes slow and threatening....

3) The third point is not really to do with the wind-machine at all, but just to do with something hinted at above - the choice to use, or not to use, a recording of a natural phenomenon rather than a close orchestral simulation. VW chose the latter course, maybe for the reasons I'm guessing at. But occasionally composers have chosen to introduce recordings of the 'thing itself', with greater or lesser effectiveness. I think this must be a very hard trick to bring off.

In Pines of Rome, famously, Respighi uses a recording of a nightingale. I think I'm right in saying that there hasn't always been a consensus of opinion as to whether he was justified in so doing. It's perfectly easy to make the case that this is a cop-out, that Respighi could equally have provided a purely orchestral nightingale as other composers have done - that's the same argument that was put forward here re. VW and his wind-machine. But it seems to me that there is a deeper level to the use of the recording, one that I actually find quite touching - it seems to me that there is something like a quasi-religious reverence and awe going here, as if Respighi is putting up his hands, walking away and saying 'I'm not even going to attempt this one - it's too beautiful; let it speak for itself.' And it works - this musical 'frame' Respighi creates is so magically hushed, and the intrusion of a real bird into it makes it extraordinarily privileged.*** 'This is too special to be imitated', the music says.

And yet, what holds true for the Respighi doesn't necessarily hold true for other music. Alan Hovhaness's And God Created Great Whales works in a similar way, with self-explanatory zoological substitution - but the piece itself, IMHO, is a comparative failure. Perhaps that was always going to be the case, given the sound to be used; perhaps the fault lies with Hovhaness, who doesn't IMO provide his whales with the same privileged environment that Respighi creates for his nightingale.


*Forgive the Mellers-ian capitalisation. I find it clarifies concepts for me if for no one else!
**One might expect that a bell would be a better symbol of Death, in fact - because it has ritualistic associations with funerals etc - and of course it is often used in this sense. But a bell has a much stronger fundamental than a tam-tam which take it further away from a dense mysterious mass of approximately white-noise sound, and I have a feeling that this is the reason that is not often used to depict the first contact with Death itself so much as with the rituals which surround Death.
*** Only true if the orchestra is amenable - I've heard horror stories about this, such as the time my wife was in the orchestra for this piece, and someone replaced the nightingale tape with one of helicopters taking off....  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 11:10:10 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 09, 2008, 10:47:52 AM
It seems to me too bizarre coincidence that Vaughan Williams principally wanted a sound that would be inhuman or outside the world of the orchestra and by coincidence he chose a wind machine in this piece about a windy place.  He could have picked an air-raid siren, a door buzzer, a steam whistle, a hair dryer, a diesel engine.  By chance he picked a wind machine to evoke the inhumanity of the wind, and this has nothing to do with the fact that is sounds like wind.  It is supposed to produce a shocking inhuman presence, despite the fact that everyone on this thread who watches movies has heard hundreds of recordings of a wind machine, which was not developed as a musical instrument, but is a standard tool of the Foley artists who provide the sound tracks of virtually all feature films.  If you've ever seen a movie with a windy scene, (the Wizard of Oz, for instance) you've heard a wind machine.

http://www.natf.org/wad/foley.htm

But no, this is not comparable to the music with a wind machine that we hear as the twister is coming for poor Dorothy, this is an existential statement.   ::)


Dear Lord, man, but you don't get it at all, do you? And it's so simple! Either that or you have a taste for strawmen. Look back at my posts and tell me where I've said, as you say I have, that the choice of wind-machine 'has nothing to do with the fact that is sounds like wind' but is only meant to refer to something else. I've explicitly said that it's there to do both - to sound like the wind, of course, but also, naturally, to represent the inhumanity of nature, and indeed its anihilatory powers. That's precisely why it's such an apt choice of instrument. Look at it the other way round: the wind machine appears at the end of the symphony. Tell, me, is VW only interested, here, in the fact that the wind is blowing? As a purely acoustic phenomenon. Or is it just possible that he might be somewhat moved by this empty landscape, all human existence gone and destroyed, the wind all that remains (and thus in itself reminding us of the disappearance of humanity). It's blatantly clear that he couldn't have composed the darn thing without the idea that 'the wind' wasn't just a sound but was fraught with more significance than this. Otherwise he wouldn't have put it in at all.

The point about movies is also the result of flawed logic, I think. The wind machine in VW 7 certainly has its origins in the Scott of the Antarctic film score, but there the music is subservient to the image - if we see the action of the wind, we need to hear it too. On stage, as a symphony, this is a wholly different matter, different priorites, different aesthetic, different way of working, different audience expectation - we may have heard hundreds of wind machines in the movies (without really noticing it), but of course it's more shocking and unusual in a symphony. If it isn't shocking, as you're now saying it isn't, then why did it cause you to make all this fuss about it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 09, 2008, 11:37:39 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 11:10:10 AM
. . . I've explicitly said that it's there to do both - to sound like the wind, of course, but also, naturally, to represent the inhumanity of nature, and indeed its anihilatory powers. That's precisely why it's such an apt choice of instrument. Look at it the other way round: the wind machine appears at the end of the symphony. Tell, me, is VW only interested, here, in the fact that the wind is blowing? As a purely acoustic phenomenon. Or is it just possible that he might be somewhat moved by this empty landscape, all human existence gone and destroyed, the wind all that remains (and thus in itself reminding us of the disappearance of humanity). It's blatantly clear that he couldn't have composed the darn thing without the idea that 'the wind' wasn't just a sound but was fraught with more significance than this. Otherwise he wouldn't have put it in at all.

And, if there is not such an 'artistic narrative' implementation of the instrument, why does Vaughan Williams apparently omit it from the third movement Lento, which specifically bears the title Landscape?  The wind should have been blowing then, too.

(In a wry orchestrational sense, the wind does blow in that movement, too, of course . . . there is a powerfully prominent organ entrance, and the organ pipes are powered by a bellows, indeed.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 12:17:42 PM
I love the idea implicit in this VW criticism that he was a composer unable to see beyond the purely mimetic use of an instrument - purely because those criticising find it hard to listen in any way other than the strictly literal, and hard to believe that a composer (who ponders and balances and assesses and lives every note of the piece he is writing, let's remember), should perceive the various relationships between instruments and groups of instruments in an aesthetic or moral sense.

And I love the idea because, of all composers, VW is one of the very first to spring to mind when it comes to questions of understanding the aesthetic implications of his music. (Nielsen's the second, for me.) As I said pages ago to M, describing VW's idiom - he's a composer whose language in terms of interval, mode, key, gesture and instrumentation is extraordinarily sensitive and incredibly consistent. In his finest scores there is not a note which doesn't partake wholly and in every parameter of the aesthetic concerns of the whole - whether that's the wheedling tritone-driven and sax-dominated scherzo of #6 or the purely fifths-fourth-and-seconds strings that open #2. The implied idea that VW, in turning his film score into a symphony, simply lifted the wind-machine from one to the other without assessing the aesthetic considerations this entails is ridiculous; the idea that he of all composers would have been deaf to the symbolism of the wind blowing through the emptiness ditto.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 09, 2008, 12:58:29 PM
     Err ??       (http://bp2.blogger.com/_fbuYL1Y4VSc/R6uOMX94v0I/AAAAAAAAC94/Gyblk1Ypt7A/s400/RVWilliams.jpg)

Again, admirably argued, Luke, and simply absolutely correct in all respects. (And we may also admire you for your perseverence even when some seem to be turning a deaf ear.)  :)
           
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on September 09, 2008, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 11:10:10 AM
Dear Lord, man, but you don't get it at all, do you? And it's so simple! Either that or you have a taste for strawmen.

Well, he did reference The Wizard of Oz
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 01:09:02 PM
True. It all makes sense now!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 09, 2008, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 11:10:10 AM
The point about movies is also the result of flawed logic, I think. The wind machine in VW 7 certainly has its origins in the Scott of the Antarctic film score, but there the music is subservient to the image - if we see the action of the wind, we need to hear it too. On stage, as a symphony, this is a wholly different matter, different priorites, different aesthetic, different way of working, different audience expectation - we may have heard hundreds of wind machines in the movies (without really noticing it), but of course it's more shocking and unusual in a symphony. If it isn't shocking, as you're now saying it isn't, then why did it cause you to make all this fuss about it?

I didn't find it shocking.  It just gave me the impression that I was listening to film music, which was a disappointment to me.  I had enjoyed it up to that point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on September 09, 2008, 02:53:05 PM
I just listened to the Antarctica Symphony today again and I swear I can't remember hearing the wind machine. Is it played with the chorus?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 09, 2008, 03:13:28 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 09, 2008, 02:53:05 PM
I just listened to the Antarctica Symphony today again and I swear I can't remember hearing the wind machine. Is it played with the chorus?

What recording was it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 09, 2008, 03:28:07 PM
I haven't read every single post on the last two pages of this thread, but I have read the ones in which Mr O and scarpia quarrel about the use of the wind machine in this piece, and it has made me curious, even though my first expeditions into VW's music did not leave me very impressed. So I listened to the Sinfonia Antarctica twice last night (boult's recording which I downloaded from amazon, and Handley's which a friend sent me). That is actually a fairly interesting piece.

When it comes to the heatedly debated use of the wind machine in this particular piece, I, as an independent judge who doesn't even particularly like VW's music (so far), have to say the way it is used here is pure genius, much beyond a simple naturalistic sound effect. That is not the first time that I had to notice that scarpia often doesn't get contexts and gets stuck on minor, in context not so important preconceptions.

So, sorry scarpia, you lose - big time. Mr O wins. 3:0.  $:)


More details later. I have to go and inhale some food and beer now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on September 09, 2008, 03:30:34 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 09, 2008, 03:13:28 PM
What recording was it?

It's from Previn's set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on September 09, 2008, 03:31:55 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 09, 2008, 03:28:07 PM
I haven't read every single post on the last two pages of this thread, but I have read the ones in which Mr O and scarpia quarrel about the use of the wind machine in this piece, and it has made me curious, even though my first expeditions into VW's music did not leave me very impressed. So I listened to the Sinfonia Antarctica twice last night (boult's recording which I downloaded from amazon, and Handley's which a friend sent me). That is actually a fairly interesting piece.

When it comes to the heatedly debated use of the wind machine in this particular piece, I, as an independent judge who doesn't even particularly like VW's music (so far), have to say the way it is used here is pure genius, much beyond a simple naturalistic sound effect. That is not the first time that I had to notice that scarpia often doesn't get contexts and gets stuck on minor, in context not so important preconceptions.

So, sorry scarpia, you lose - big time. Mr O wins. 3:0.  $:)


More details later. I have to go and inhale some food and beer now.
So are you saying that it's absolute truth that his use of the wind machine is "good" or are you just saying that you generally don't like his music much (so far) but you like the way the wind machine is used (given the context, etc.)?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 09, 2008, 03:42:33 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 09, 2008, 03:28:07 PM
So, sorry scarpia, you lose - big time. Mr O wins. 3:0.  $:)

I would be upset if I was under the misapprehension that my opinions are subject to your review.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Don on September 09, 2008, 03:47:25 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 09, 2008, 03:42:33 PM
I would be upset if I was under the misapprehension that my opinions are subject to your review.


M forever often reviews the opinions of others.  You can either live with that fact or pay the reviews no mind.  The choice is yours.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 09, 2008, 04:20:23 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 08:18:06 AM
Because it is a crude device that just makes noise?  Beethoven, Sibelius, Debussy were able to depict storms using their music.  With so much music by these greats, why listen to the efforts of a ham-fisted hack that needs sound effects?


      I think you might be able to make the point that he didn't need it. Anyway, he wanted it for some reason.

      I never liked the wind machine. M, I'm glad you like it. It doesn't ruin anything.

      What else? Oh, Sinfonia Antartica still doesn't seem like a symphony in quite the way 4-5-6 do. I love it anyway.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on September 09, 2008, 04:22:20 PM
Quote from: drogulus on September 09, 2008, 04:20:23 PM
I love it anyway.
I'm starting to love it, too...... it might be my favorite out of the cycle. Just pure magic, out of this world fantasy, man......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 09, 2008, 04:37:16 PM
To offer an opinion in a public forum, is to invite others' reflections upon your opinion.

Right?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sean on September 09, 2008, 04:52:26 PM
M

QuoteThat [#7] is actually a fairly interesting piece.

Yes indeed it is, VW at his most visionary, and him making use of some of those characteristic intervals that identify him. I've also heard the Boult- I had his LP cycle in my possession once, but got to know it from the Previn LP, along with the Ninth- he has real feeling for these symphonies, more than most Englishmen. I also bought the Haitink on CD, and the work suits his style of course but what he does just isn't as idiomatic.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 09, 2008, 05:05:35 PM


     I think Luke is right that the wind machine was intended to represent inhuman nature and not just the sound of the wind, and the resemblance of the wind machine sound to the wind doesn't invalidate that. He wasn't obliged to use a car horn to avoid some nonexistent confusion (let's try a car horn and see what that suggests). The "metaphysical hot air" is something composers share with their listeners, so why not take advantage of that?

    About composers who use conventional means to suggest storms or other natural phenomena: Vaughan Williams is one of them. For example, the Sea Symphony features conventional instrumentation which suggests the movement of the waves, much as Debussy did, though it has been far more influential. When you hear sea music in many contexts, it can often be traced to this work, as in Richard Rodgers, whose Victory at Sea was a huge television event in the '50s. Now all "sea music" you hear in films sounds like RVW, and almost never like La Mer.

     
Quote from: Sean on September 09, 2008, 04:52:26 PM
M

Yes indeed it is, VW at his most visionary, and him making use of some of those characteristic intervals that identify him. I've also heard the Boult- I had his LP cycle in my possession once, but got to know it from the Previn LP, along with the Ninth- he has real feeling for these symphonies, more than most Englishmen. I also bought the Haitink on CD, and the work suits his style of course but what he does just isn't as idiomatic.


     About Haitinks famous Sinfonia recording: It a very good interpretation, but it's too rushed in parts of the first and last movements. In both cases the main theme is treated just a little bit lightly, and some of the grandeur and foreboding, if I may play along here, is understated in comparison to Boult I and II. I would not stretch these themes out to the extent Previn does, though. It's not a major point IMO, since the import of the music comes through. Perhaps here is a sign of the "unidiomatic".
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 09, 2008, 05:35:14 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 09, 2008, 03:31:55 PM
So are you saying that it's absolute truth that his use of the wind machine is "good" or are you just saying that you generally don't like his music much (so far) but you like the way the wind machine is used (given the context, etc.)?

Both.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 09, 2008, 05:36:18 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 09, 2008, 03:42:33 PM
I would be upset if I was under the misapprehension that my opinions are subject to your review.

I didn't review. I refereed. And you lost. Big time. Sorry. I don't make the rules. I just apply them.  $:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 09, 2008, 05:37:05 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 09, 2008, 04:37:16 PM
To offer an opinion in a public forum, is to invite others' reflections upon your opinion.

Right?

Yes. But in many cases, peoples' "opinions" are not actually based on their own reflections, they don't like others to reflect on them.

That was actually really well said, I have to say.  $:)

Right?



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 09, 2008, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: Sean on September 09, 2008, 04:52:26 PM
Yes indeed it is, VW at his most visionary, and him making use of some of those characteristic intervals that identify him. I've also heard the Boult- I had his LP cycle in my possession once, but got to know it from the Previn LP, along with the Ninth- he has real feeling for these symphonies, more than most Englishmen.

But then, according to you, most Englishmen are philosophically and sexually repressed and totally rotten anyway, so what do you care?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 09, 2008, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: drogulus on September 09, 2008, 05:05:35 PM
I think Luke is right that the wind machine was intended to represent inhuman nature and not just the sound of the wind, and the resemblance of the wind machine sound to the wind doesn't invalidate that. He wasn't obliged to use a car horn to avoid some nonexistent confusion (let's try a car horn and see what that suggests).

A car horn is mimicking a man-made object (namely, a car horn) and suggests human activity, specifically, of course, crowded traffic (as in "An American in Paris"). It would be entirely unsuitable in that context. Did scarpia compare that to the wind machine? Which is a man-made object, too, but one which does not mimick human activity. If he used that as an example, I have to adjust the score from3:0 to 4 for Mr O and, still, 0 for scarpia.
$:)


Quote from: drogulus on September 09, 2008, 05:05:35 PM
Now all "sea music" you hear in films sounds like RVW, and almost never like La Mer.

That's because at sea, the English almost always won.  $:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sean on September 09, 2008, 08:03:10 PM
drogulus

QuoteAbout Haitinks famous Sinfonia recording: It a very good interpretation, but it's too rushed in parts of the first and last movements. In both cases the main theme is treated just a little bit lightly, and some of the grandeur and foreboding, if I may play along here, is understated in comparison to Boult I and II. I would not stretch these themes out to the extent Previn does, though. It's not a major point IMO, since the import of the music comes through. Perhaps here is a sign of the "unidiomatic".

Yes that's how I see Haitink generally, and you've only got to hear the man speak to confirm that his personality is all bevelled edges, not ruthlessness; he can find a very strong sense of line though.

M

QuoteBut then, according to you, most Englishmen are philosophically and sexually repressed and totally rotten anyway, so what do you care?

Well no I don't much care about England, and I don't even live there anymore, I'm well into a two year contract in S.Korea. But its artists can find a certain distanced luminosity, as in VW or Bax etc, peering through the English fogs over the land.

English culture though is indeed the antithesis of art, being strongly empirical and pragmatic, incredulous toward the theoretical, the metaphysical, the aesthetic etc. Maybe you've heard that ludicrous trash from the BBCSO at the Proms London concerts lately, for instance, just playing to the gallery and appealing to infantile excitably bouncy rhythms and parochial, cluelessly showy notions of what music is.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sean on September 09, 2008, 08:05:05 PM
drogulus by the way I remember on my RCA LP, I think it was, there was a reciter for the short poetic introductions to the five movements.

Previn really gets into the soul of those wide leaps and icy otherworldliness.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 10, 2008, 12:29:01 AM
Quote from: M forever on September 09, 2008, 05:35:14 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 09, 2008, 05:36:18 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 09, 2008, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 09, 2008, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 09, 2008, 05:44:59 PM

That makes a serial monologue in five parts. Add to that the likely probability that Scarpia is one and the same person, and we're confronted here with one huge monologue in two persons and too many parts.

Byzantine theologians actually coined a term for it (that is quoted below by Auden in its Anglicised form): perichoresis.  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on September 10, 2008, 05:33:02 AM
Mention of the Byzantines reminds me of the Hesychasts-those Greek monks who believed that by a prolonged period of ascetic contemplation(which appeared to involve a very extended period of navel-gazing!) they would eventually be able to detach themselves from all other reality and be able to see the light. Not any old light either-but the divine and uncreated light of God.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 10, 2008, 05:38:46 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 09, 2008, 02:53:05 PM
I just listened to the Antarctica Symphony today again and I swear I can't remember hearing the wind machine. Is it played with the chorus?

Greg, if you're listening to Previn, you'll hear it prominently for the first time in the first movement at 4:45.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 10, 2008, 06:03:34 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 10, 2008, 05:33:02 AM
Mention of the Byzantines reminds me of the Hesychasts-those Greek monks who believed that by a prolonged period of ascetic contemplation(which appeared to involve a very extended period of navel-gazing!) they would eventually be able to detach themselves from all other reality and be able to see the light. Not any old light either-but the divine and uncreated light of God.

Interesting.  ::) And reminiscent of one of the constant elements in the ascetic variant of mysticism of all times and many traditions/religions. Indeed, not so common in the Western tradition (church), but one that connects the Greeks with the Orient and as far as Buddhism at least. (When entering the Greek world, I always immediately start to become aware of these more oriental and timeless religious elements, as in the Islamic world and farther on (but I myself never travelled further East than the Middle-East).

Back to RVW: his Flos Campi, though primarily about erotic love, reaches beyond too and ends in a more mystic vein with hints of a spiritual `fulfillment', imo.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 10, 2008, 06:29:03 AM
In Paul Hillier's book on Arvo Part there is an extensive discussion on Hesychasm and Part-as-Hesychast. Just FWIW
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 10, 2008, 10:23:26 AM
the 9th Symphony  ???

Listened to it today. It has some haunting and arresting and memorable moments, for sure. But overall, I just cannot "get" this piece.

I don't have similar problems with any of the other symphonies - they may be good or great or just OK, but I never feel lost while listening to them. Nor do I ask myself "what is he [VW] trying to do here?" Only with the 9th is this an issue.

So to you Vee Dubya fans - what do you think this symphony is "about"? What is ol' "Rafe" trying to say here? And does he put forth his particular vision successfully, or does he fail (thereby explaining why this sym. causes me to scratch my head)? How do you evaluate this strange melancholy piece?

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 10, 2008, 10:29:39 AM
No time to answer your question as it deserves but it should be said - your reaction to the piece chimes with that of many others, and in particular the first critics to hear the piece, who were in general rather underwhelmed and disapointed. But subsequent listenings turned things around - from being seen as a symphony whose main interest was that it was one of those legendary ninths which directly preceded the composer's death, it began to be seen as one of his most profound and searching utterances.

Put more briefly, if any work was required to go alongside the dictionary definition of 'grower', it's this one. It's a work which almost always gives up its secrets slowly, but surely. Keep on at it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on September 10, 2008, 11:45:05 AM
They say modern music should be challenging. Well here it is, RVW's 9th, a challenging work if there ever was one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 10, 2008, 12:57:07 PM


     
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 10, 2008, 10:29:39 AM

Put more briefly, if any work was required to go alongside the dictionary definition of 'grower', it's this one. It's a work which almost always gives up its secrets slowly, but surely. Keep on at it!

    This was my reaction when I first heard the 9th. At the time I knew the 4th through the 8th symphonies fairly well, and I had some trouble at first, but over time I began to hear some connections with these earlier works, the strongest being with the 6th. I've grown to like it, but it's still an enigmatic piece, and it seems it was intended to be.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 10, 2008, 01:42:38 PM
Quote from: Christo on September 10, 2008, 12:29:01 AM
That makes a serial monologue in five parts.

That's because each reply is to a different person. If you want true serial monologues which cover entire pages, look for the latest posts of your compatriot Harry.


Quote from: Christo on September 10, 2008, 12:29:01 AM
That makes a serial monologue in five parts. Add to that the likely probability that Scarpia is one and the same person, and we're confronted here with one huge monologue in two persons and too many parts.

Byzantine theologians actually coined a term for it (that is quoted below by Auden in its Anglicised form): perichoresis.  0:)

Cool word. I had to look that up. Knowing rare words doesn't necessarily indicate intelligent understanding of them though, as your example clearly shows. How likely is it that I and Scarpia are the same person when I say that he lost the argument with Mr O...
You aren't too bright, are you?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 10, 2008, 01:47:12 PM
Question: does the wind machine also occur in the film music to "Scott of the Antarctic"? I mean, an actual wind machine in the music track, not "wind effects" in the movie which I am sure there are many. Or is it used only in the symphony?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 10, 2008, 04:28:25 PM
God, I tried to move on but couldn't let this one go...

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 09, 2008, 12:17:42 PM
the idea that he of all composers would have been deaf to the symbolism of the wind blowing through the emptiness ditto.

The wind machine evokes the wind, but when you assert that the wind machine is symbolic of something, or that it definitively contains a specific meaning, you are presuming to speak for the composer, which you don't have the right to do. Absent the composer's explanation, all you can do is report your interpretation, which in this case contains a hefty amount of interpolation.

And you still haven't addressed the issue of redundancy. There is a wind machine, and there is a chorus imitating the wind? Why both? There is no convincing answer; the composer made a mistake.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sean on September 10, 2008, 05:15:51 PM
I've just listened to the first movement of the Proms performance of #7 and the BBCSO are making their usual rough-edged indulgent mess of things, blurring beautiful textures, selling the music and just turning everything into a slab of Elgar blazing away foolishly at the slightest provocation, showing little sense of any inherent merit or spirit in the work. Martin Brabbins has never shown much ability as a conductor and I'm going to have to turn it off right now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 10, 2008, 05:20:56 PM
I am not sure the chorus is imitating the wind. Maybe it is, but in a more symbolic way than just imitating the sound of the wind. I listened to this piece three times in the meantime, (2x Boult, 1x Handley), and I have to say I find it more appealing (at least immediately appealing) than the other symphonies I heard so far. It is perhaps a more "graphic" or "evocative" piece, but I also find the way motifs and phrase developments are handled more convincing coherent. I also find the music very athmospheric.

I haven't read any analyses or descriptions of the music, so I don't know how much of it is directly from the film, if the musical elements occur in a "chronological" order etc. My impression is that it is not really a symphonic retelling of the story of Scott and his one-way trip to the end of the world, but more a reflection on that subject in general, the encounter between man and nature on a very intense (and, ultimately, lethal) level. I think the music reflects mostly the various experiences and feelings triggered by encountering nature on a vast scale (kind of like La Mer, although there are certainly elements of tonepainting, is more a reflection of the nature of the sea as we percieve it).

In that context, I find the use of the wind machine very well judged and, in those moments, hauntingly expressive. Most of the music played by the orchestra seems to me to reflect those internal feelings stirred by the natural forces, with some direct observations of mesmerizing natural sights and events playing into it. The chorus comes from a sphere in-between man and nature, but is still closer to man's feelings triggered by than a simple depiction of nature. The female voice sounds to me like a supernatural apparition, like a spirit which appears, hailing us, as we approach the threshold to death (and it's up to one's own preferences whether one wants to see this as as an actual supernatural apparition or as a hallucination of the dying human spirit).
Then the wind machine, with it's sound completely devoid of human (or supernatural) elements sweeps away and puts out the last remaining faint light of remaining human spirit, and perfectly ends this transition from personal emotional experiences to slowly being taken over by the force of nature and being drawn into the realm of death and nothingness.

Of course, I am not saying that this passage is a tonepoem-like depiction of such an event, to me it sounds like that, but from an absolutely musical point of view, the transition between these elements, whatever one might want to see them as, is very impressive and evocative.

I am also wondering of the passage in the middle movement when the organ comes in occurs in the film music. Does it have something to do with the event of death, too? The section is marked by a stroke on the tam-tam, which in many instances in music has depicted the moment of death. With the organ passage with its markedly sacred character, tis sounds like a "death and transfiguration" passage. Not in the sense of mimicking the Strauss piece, where the transfiguration is depicted in a very different way, but in a general sense.

In this piece, I also hear a lot of influences, but in"degrees which I would call just that, influences, such as run through all music and which reflect stylistic echoes, not stylistic imitations. I hear some strong Debussy echoes, transmitted through Holst, and of course, elements of the "supernatural", "transcendent", and "mystical" as reflected in The Planets' Saturn and Neptune. But again, I hear these as processed influences, not stylistic borrowing.

My only "problem" is with the epilog which I somehow find does not do what came before full justice, and the end sounds just a little too much like Daphnis et Chloé to me, even though the "temperature" is significantly lower and the colors, approproately, bleaker.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 10, 2008, 06:37:29 PM
I'm glad you've found some Vaughan Williams you like, M. Regarding the correspondence of the music with the events of the film, I've largely ignored this, as I don't want to fall into the trap of regarding this as a program work rather than a symphony. I've read that the second movement includes music originally associated with penguins and whales; the organ entry is often called the "ice fall" scene, so presumably it originally accompanied an avalanche or a fall down a crevasse. Following as it does a passage of "struggle" it does seem to represent some sort of implacable opposition, but not sure it was supposed to have a sacred connotation. I agree that the vocal soloist part seems to indicate some sort of presence, a spirit mourning the hopeless fate of man. I am glad that in your mention of the wind machine you are discussing your own reactions and not laying down the law. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 10, 2008, 07:43:51 PM
I don't think the vocal solist "spirit" or "apparition" or whatever is mourning anybody or anything. It sounds too removed, too disembodied to me, perhaps disinterested "the fate of man", really more like a luring spitit, an icy "siren", so to speak. In any case, it leaves a strong impression as a musical element, and the way VW treats these musical elements and the transitional layering from emotive music to disembodied voices to empty nature sounds - in other words, before, we heard what the experience of nature triggered in the human psyche, and then gradually, what we hear becomes more removed from "reality", and once it is gone, all that is left is the naked, soulless reality, but without the human description of it overlaid.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 10, 2008, 08:40:37 PM
(Maybe I should just clarify here that I don't simply think the wind sound should be omitted - in the places where it is used, I always think silence would be more effective.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 10, 2008, 08:54:19 PM
The wind is the layer and in some moments, the transition between music and silence in a musical concept where you have several layers of material from internally subjective to externally subjective to objective to silence. What on earth is so freaking difficult to understand about that?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 10, 2008, 10:36:58 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 10, 2008, 04:28:25 PM
God, I tried to move on but couldn't let this one go...

The wind machine evokes the wind, but when you assert that the wind machine is symbolic of something, or that it definitively contains a specific meaning, you are presuming to speak for the composer, which you don't have the right to do. Absent the composer's explanation, all you can do is report your interpretation, which in this case contains a hefty amount of interpolation.

Honestly, this lack of willingness to hear anything but the utterly literal is startling. I don't want to get into the issue again - it seems that the whole world but you can plainly see that, in a piece such as this evoking the sound of the wind has automatic connotations over and above simple sound effect. It's so basic that it isn't really an 'interpretatation' at all.

Imagine I write a 'Sahara Symphony', dusty, dry, full of struggle - and in the last moments I use some kind of watery-instrument (a rainstick, perhaps). Does this only mean 'and then it was rainy'? Doesn't the rain automatically carry some higher meaning here - salvation, life, whatever? As in VW 7, it would be impossible to hear the former without attaching the latter to it - or so I'd hope.

Quote from: eyeresist on September 10, 2008, 04:28:25 PMAnd you still haven't addressed the issue of redundancy. There is a wind machine, and there is a chorus imitating the wind? Why both? There is no convincing answer; the composer made a mistake.

Why both? M's just convincingly laid out the reasons he sees for both, and I agree entirely, as does everyone else whose opinions I know. 'Layers', as he says. Different groups of instruments for different things. The music operates in more dimensions; it has more symphonic scope. The voices are operating on another level - magical or supernatural is how it's usually described, and that's how it appears to most listeners, though I'm sure you won't agree until you find a written statement from VW to that effect. Which you probably won't because he liked listeners to use their own brains.

In VW 3 there are also these symbolic layers - the vocalise, the natural-harmonic brass fanfares. It shouldn't need pointing out that these 'speak' to us from different areas of experience and automatically bring with them different associations and connotations. But perhaps it does.

VW thought in terms of these connotations, BTW. We know he did. As I said earlier, he had a tendency to hide his true thoughts about his music behind a layer of irony, but even then he spoke in these terms. Writing his farcical program note to the 9th - a piece that we know for sure was associated with tragedy and the story of Tess of the d'Urbervilles (he even noted down names etc next to various themes in his sketches) - he says something to the effect that 'hearing the gong makes us automatically think that it is dinner-time' (I haven't got the note to hand, but it's something along those lines.) A black joke, clearly - the gong, as in other composers' works, is programatically associated here with death, not dinner - but proof the VW was sensitive to the idea that sound leads naturally on to extra-musical associations and concepts. Something that, previously, I thought was obvious.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 12:34:46 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 10, 2008, 08:40:37 PM
(Maybe I should just clarify here that I don't simply think the wind sound should be omitted - in the places where it is used, I always think silence would be more effective.)


Why? What is it about silence that roughly = the effect of the wind? Is it, perhaps, that silence is a negation, a nothingness, an annihilation of sound? IOW, it would be doing exactly the job that I describe the wind machine doing. In making the equation from one to the other you show that, somewhere, you too sense that this is the deeper function of the wind machine. But you simply don't like the wind machine and would prefer silence, which is fair enough.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 11, 2008, 01:07:14 AM
Please don't call me a dullard if I disagree with you. I understand your point, but I disagree. I don't think the wind machine works. I think the literal reproduction of a natural sound in the symphony has the effect of reducing the music (at times) to mere landscape description. And I've found the explanation for the choral part alongside the wind sound-effect unconvincing - a improvisation in order to explain the disparity.

Any use of naturalistic sound is a danger-area for a composer. Your hypothetical use of the rain-stick might be effective, but on the other hand it might be banal - it might give us to think of the Mercy of God, or it might merely suggest a sense of relief, or it might be "just rain". If you used rain drop-like pizzicatos as well, would we be convinced to buy in to the notion that this is "man's perception of rain", or might it just seem like ill-judged overkill? The "automatic connotations" you mention are not guaranteed, because, however lofty the composer's aim, we must judge not by intention but by result. We disagree on the result in this case. I've attempted to discuss possible practical reasons for this (the incongruity of natural sound in musical context; the redundancy of having two wind sounds), but your response has largely been to insist there is nothing to discuss, and deride me for expressing a contrary view. I hope you haven't sacrificed your critical faculties to complacency - Uncle Ralph would not have approved!

I am willing to admit that for most listeners this issue presents no problem, and the music is, by this standard, successful. But if we are discussing the nuts and bolts of the piece, surely we may allow the  possibility of weaknesses, or vulnerabilities, in the Sinfonia?


Edit: Yes, I suppose I do think silence would serve the function of a devastating negation better than wind (for the reasons previously given).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 01:55:23 AM
I haven't called you anything. I'm just rather surprised. The connection between wind and nature (which is by implication inhuman) seems to me too obvious to even need to be made, and I would have thought that all who listen to the piece make it.

The 'explanation for the choral part' is certainly no improvisation, but the way I've always heard the piece,and, to judge by the views of others, the way most other listeners hear it too. The interaction between different levels is one of the most striking things in this symphony, I think.

My rain-stick piece would be banal, absolutely. That's why I'm not going to write it! But if what's important to you is 'not intention but result' then why are you so keen to see substantiation of VW's intention? If the result doesn't work for you that is fine, but to go from that to VW 'made a mistake' is a bit of a leap, I think.

There are of course weaknesses in VW, IMO. As I said a long time ago, though I love much of his music I'm not even a particular 'fan' of his, even though this thread has made me appear like one. Sometimes I hear things that are problematic in his music to my ears, and perhaps the wind machine might even be one of them. I'm not discussing that, because in the end our individual reactions to the music aren't particularly important, and because if the wind machine is a problem, I don't think it's for lack of poetic potency (which for me means the relation of simple 'musical onject' to a larger-scale concern).

Quote from: eyeresist on September 11, 2008, 01:07:14 AM
Edit: Yes, I suppose I do think silence would serve the function of a devastating negation better than wind (for the reasons previously given).

My edit - But you made the connection - that's what I find interesting. 'I wouldn't just remove the wind, I'd actively replace it with silence' - this implies that you too feel the wind means something more than just wind, and isn't redundant as you say it is. Because if it is redundant, it doesn't need to be replaced by anything.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 05:07:54 AM
I've enjoyed the discussion. (Just wanted to say.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on September 11, 2008, 05:15:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 05:07:54 AM
I've enjoyed the discussion. (Just wanted to say.)

Definitely.  My appreciation for this symphony has increased ten-fold.  While, for me, it doesn't surpass my favorite (the Fifth), I have found it much more rewarding.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 05:58:57 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 01:55:23 AM
My edit - But you made the connection - that's what I find interesting. 'I wouldn't just remove the wind, I'd actively replace it with silence' - this implies that you too feel the wind means something more than just wind, and isn't redundant as you say it is. Because if it is redundant, it doesn't need to be replaced by anything.

Vaughan Williams may very well have meant the wind machine to have a symbolic role (it is impossible to know if he didn't say one way or the other).  Regardless, I just think it sounds stupid.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 06:04:14 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 05:58:57 AM
Regardless, I just think it sounds stupid.

That's your trip.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 06:04:27 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 05:58:57 AM
Vaughan Williams may very well have meant the wind machine to have a symbolic role (it is impossible to know if he didn't say one way or the other).  Regardless, I just think it sounds stupid.

To the first, I think it so likely as to be a certainty, as I've previously said - simply because any composer thinks about these things as a matter of course; especially an extremely fine composer (as VW was); especially one with proven sensitivity to this sort of thing (as VW has); especially one writing in a high-profile genre like the symphony; especially when the choice of instrument is as peculiar and dramatic as this one. But I've said all that already.

To the second, I have not the tiniest issue with your dislike the sound of the wind machine whatsoever. Though I was accused of 'laying down the law' on this matter, I'm doing no such thing. I haven't even stated my own opinion on whether or not I think the wind machine is a good idea, or if I think it works. I simply pointed out the context it was used in, and to the answer 'you can't be sure VW meant it that way', I refer to the previous paragraph.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 07:17:22 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 06:04:27 AM
To the first, I think it so likely as to be a certainty, as I've previously said - simply because any composer thinks about these things as a matter of course; especially an extremely fine composer (as VW was); especially one with proven sensitivity to this sort of thing (as VW has); especially one writing in a high-profile genre like the symphony; especially when the choice of instrument is as peculiar and dramatic as this one. But I've said all that already.

The argument that he was such a fine composer that he must have had a high purpose is unconvincing to me, especially since V-W also had an interest of experimenting with different unusual sonorities, apparently for their own sake.  For instance, he apparently added three tuned tam-tams to the finale of his 9th symphony after hearing them used in a performance of Turandot, which he thought sounded cool.  I don't see that it is impossible that a similar impulse motivated V-W in the case of the 7th. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on September 11, 2008, 07:22:18 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 07:17:22 AM
The argument that he was such a fine composer that he must have had a high purpose is unconvincing to me, especially since V-W also had an interest of experimenting with different unusual sonorities, apparently for their own sake.

Most modern composers are praised if they experiment with different sonorities for their own sake.

Quote
  For instance, he apparently added three tuned tam-tams to the finale of his 9th symphony after hearing them used in a performance of Turandot, which he thought sounded cool. 

That's the 8th symphony, not the 9th. As far as I'm concerned, sounding cool is justification enough.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 07:29:16 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 11, 2008, 07:22:18 AM
Most modern composers are praised if they experiment with different sonorities for their own sake.

Not if it involves a canvas sheet draped over slotted wooden cylinder with a hand crank.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 07:32:49 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 11, 2008, 07:22:18 AM
Most modern composers are praised if they experiment with different sonorities for their own sake.

Indeed, and not just modern ones. A very odd argument this, I think.

Quote
Not if it involves a canvas sheet draped over slotted wooden cylinder with a hand crank.

As opposed to what - animal skin stretched over wooden cylinders and hit with sticks? Wooden boxes with wire stretched over them scrapped by sticks strung with hairy substances? All instruments sound ridiculous if described like this!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 07:39:36 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 11, 2008, 07:22:18 AM
That's the 8th symphony, not the 9th. As far as I'm concerned, sounding cool is justification enough.

Hear, hear.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 08:09:19 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 07:32:49 AM
As opposed to what - animal skin stretched over wooden cylinders and hit with sticks? Wooden boxes with wire stretched over them scrapped by sticks strung with hairy substances? All instruments sound ridiculous if described like this!

There is a world of difference between a Stradivarius violin, played by a virtuoso musician, and a wind machine which is operated by turning a hand crank and essentially produces white noise.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 11, 2008, 08:13:24 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 08:09:19 AM
There is a world of difference between a Stradivarius violin, played by a virtuoso musician, and a wind machine which is operated by turning a hand crank and essentially produces white noise.

Yawn!  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on September 11, 2008, 08:29:30 AM
This reminds me of how César Franck was criticized for including an English horn in his D minor symphony. Ambroise Thomas is said to have remarked in scorn "Name a single symphony by Haydn or Beethoven that uses the English horn!" as if that was supposed to have settled the matter.*

After all, an English horn is nothing but a wooden tube with bulbuous growth at one end.


* (In any case he was ignorant of Haydn's Philosopher Symphony, which uses not just one but two English horns)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 08:32:21 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 11, 2008, 08:13:24 AM
Yawn!  ::)

Or, even:

(http://www.bittermancircle.com/my%20images/BeatDeadHorse.gif)

8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 11, 2008, 08:49:57 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 08:09:19 AM
There is a world of difference between a Stradivarius violin, played by a virtuoso musician, and a wind machine which is operated by turning a hand crank and essentially produces white noise.

Not really. The former may be more refined and difficult to make, and more difficult to operate. But both are instruments, tools designed for a certain purpose, and both serve their respective purposes well.

Besides, the wind machine is probably the only instrument you would be able to play, so don't look down on it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 11, 2008, 08:53:33 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 11, 2008, 01:07:14 AM
Please don't call me a dullard if I disagree with you. I understand your point, but I disagree. I don't think the wind machine works. I think the literal reproduction of a natural sound in the symphony has the effect of reducing the music (at times) to mere landscape description. And I've found the explanation for the choral part alongside the wind sound-effect unconvincing - a improvisation in order to explain the disparity.

If you found the explanation (not sure if you are referring to what Mr O said or my explanation of "layers" and "transitions" here) unconvincing, explain why.

As I pointed out before, the wind machine does not play the same role as silence here - which occurs in music all the time anyway and, by definition, at the end of every piece of music once the last note has died away, no matter if the music faded out softly or ended triumphantly in a blast of sound - it is the transition between musical sounds with an emotional content of some sort and silence. Do you get that?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 09:34:07 AM
Quote from: M forever on September 11, 2008, 08:49:57 AM
Besides, the wind machine is probably the only instrument you would be able to play, so don't look down on it!

Wrong again, M.F., try again.   ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 09:38:46 AM
What, you mean you couldn't play it?  ;D ;D ;) ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 09:39:44 AM
Cheap but irresistible shot - sorry!  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 09:44:19 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 09:39:44 AM
Cheap but irresistible shot - sorry!  ;)

And don't apologize.  Every time I try to talk to someone it's 'sorry this' and 'forgive me that' and 'I'm not worthy'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on September 11, 2008, 12:05:49 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 09:44:19 AM
And don't apologize.  Every time I try to talk to someone it's 'sorry this' and 'forgive me that' and 'I'm not worthy'.
I'll apologize for Luke apologizing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on September 11, 2008, 12:07:01 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 09, 2008, 05:35:14 PM
Both.
So you really are the voice for all humanity...... i knew it all along.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on September 11, 2008, 12:07:41 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 10, 2008, 05:38:46 AM
Greg, if you're listening to Previn, you'll hear it prominently for the first time in the first movement at 4:45.

Sarge
Ok, i'll remember next time!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 12:08:22 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 11, 2008, 12:05:49 PM
I'll apologize for Luke apologizing.

Quote from: Cheese ShopMousebender  (shoots him) What a senseless waste of human life.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on September 11, 2008, 12:11:03 PM
not sure i understand that quote, but.........
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 12:19:14 PM
I should never offer you actual violence;  but I was shooting you for apologizing, after a clear command not to apologize.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 12:19:58 PM
To coin a phrase: Now you'll be sorry.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 12:20:14 PM
He clearly deserved everything he got.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 12:21:21 PM
Listening to the Ninth. I've always loved this one!  Never had any problem with it.

So, okay, what's wrong with me?  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 11, 2008, 12:28:55 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 05:58:57 AM
Regardless, I just think it sounds stupid.

Again! Ample proof that you and M Forever are really one and the same person.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 11, 2008, 01:21:18 PM


     Incidentally, the film Scott of the Antarctic is well worth watching.

     M, this booklet (http://www.theclassicalshop.net/pdf/CHAN%2010007.pdf) from the CD of the Chandos Film Music of Ralph Vaughan Williams might interest you.

      (http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/38/chan10007li5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 01:28:44 PM
Yes, that is interesting, in the context of the above discussion - it points out that the wind sounds in the film were not part of the soundtrack but were added by the studio. The wind machine only appears in the Symphony. All of which further helps to dispel any implication that VW simply lifted the wind machine wholesale from the film score without consideration.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 01:53:49 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 01:28:44 PM
Yes, that is interesting, in the context of the above discussion - it points out that the wind sounds in the film were not part of the soundtrack but were added by the studio. The wind machine only appears in the Symphony. All of which further helps to dispel any implication that VW simply lifted the wind machine wholesale from the film score without consideration.

Of course the sound effects in the film were added by the sound department with their own wind machine and whatnot.  This is exactly what I was assuming.  V-W wrote the music properly, without sound effects, then he saw the film and thought, "I've got to put one of those wind thingamajigs in there, sounds really cool and I couldn't figure out how to end the damn thing anyway." This scenario at least has some precedent (Turandot and the gongs).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 11, 2008, 02:15:53 PM
Quote from: Christo on September 11, 2008, 12:28:55 PM
Again! Ample proof that you and M Forever are really one and the same person.  8)

Yes. Because scarpia says it sounds stupid and M says it's a great effect, and it makes musical sense. So M and scarpia must be the same person.

**offensive remark removed**


Quote from: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 01:53:49 PM
This can also support the notion that he wrote the music, then he saw the film and thought, "I've got to put one of those wind thingamajigs in there, sounds really cool and I couldn't figure out how to end the damn thing anyway."

You are right, that is definitely a possibility. However, given that the use of it makes musical sense, too, there is no reason to assume that. Apparently, the explanations I and some others gave are both beyond your intellectual grasp and your powers of musical perception.

Remember, we only hear in music what resonates in us. If you aren't able to see, or rather, hear, the musical implications beyond a sound effect, then there is no way to explain that to you. As we have seen.

That is actually what I like about this use of the wind machine here so much, that it is both a sound effect and a transcendant musical element. Well, it can be, for people who can hear such stuff. For the others, it is only a sound effect.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 11, 2008, 03:32:41 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 11, 2008, 01:55:23 AM
I'm not discussing that, because in the end our individual reactions to the music aren't particularly important

Hmmm, maybe that's the crux of our disagreement.


Quote from: karlhenning on September 11, 2008, 05:07:54 AM
I've enjoyed the discussion. (Just wanted to say.)

I'm glad. I just had the feeling this was an issue generally regarded as resolved, but I hadn't seen any debate on the topic.


Quote from: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 01:53:49 PM
V-W wrote the music properly, without sound effects, then he saw the film and thought, "I've got to put one of those wind thingamajigs in there, sounds really cool and I couldn't figure out how to end the damn thing anyway." This scenario at least has some precedent (Turandot and the gongs).

The precedent can't come after the thing it precedes.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 11, 2008, 04:28:08 PM
     You can be sensitive to elements in music that others can't hear, and the problem is that they may not be there, even though many people agree that they are. So, in a way they are there, because the composer may have succeeded in convincing listeners that his music evokes an icy inhuman world. The audience may be willing and even eager to see a moral meaning in certain features, and act as collaborator with the composer in this. After all, the history of music and the meanings that have been attached to what's gone before are the common heritage of the composer and the audience alike.

     I think this happens all the time, and part of the confusion that occurs in discussions like this is over what's actually in the music and what arrives by a more circuitous route, such as titles, concert notes, articles and books, and in other ways. My usual way of dealing with this is if I think for some reason a composer has intended a certain musical episode to mean something specific I will try and hear it that way. Mostly I think that music doesn't suggest specifics of events, but general emotions that can be applied to what you know the music is about, if you know. Like a lot of other things, a little bit of faith is required to bring this whole effect into existence, because, objectively, it's a trick. >:D 0:)

     What complicates the picture somewhat is that tritones, for example, are supposedly always sinister, which would suggest that some objective features can't be made to mean just anything, that there are deep underlying connections between certain sounds and what the sound evokes at the emotional level. That's probably true, but only in a general way. Such emotional evocations are a long way from moral meanings, I think. For that you need the kind of collaboration I mentioned earlier.

    So the argument about what means what is naturally a confused one, where people who believe many different things about the capabilities of music to convey meanings are trying to resolve a specific case without any agreement about whether, or how, such meanings are actually brought about.

     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 11, 2008, 04:57:12 PM
Interesting post, drogulus.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 11, 2008, 07:34:55 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 11, 2008, 03:32:41 PM
The precedent can't come after the thing it precedes.  8)

There can be a precedent for an interpretation of V-W's method of composing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 11, 2008, 11:44:50 PM
I am glad RVW never used an anvil (like Bax in his Third). This thread would be hammered to death.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 11, 2008, 11:54:43 PM
 ;D

BTW, wind machine: For an overview over a number of concert works that employ a wind machine, look here...

http://www.squidoo.com/wind_machine

As to the use of voices in the 7th, Lionel Pike writes:

"The human voices ... do not depict the human element of the story but rather the frozen wastes and a general white, timeless, unfeeling natural desolation; the human element is in fact illustrated instead by the trumpet fanfares which in the film had indicated the setting out on a great endeavour"
(Vaughan Williams and the Symphony, 2003)

On the wind machine, as part of a 22-page analysis of the symphony, Pike merely writes that it "can mean one thing, and one thing only" - only to leave the issue dangling in midair and never to discuss it again. He does however point to the original use of the ORGAN in the "Landscape" movement - stripped of its ecclesiastical assocations, meant to signify the great natural barrier that man cannot overcome.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 12, 2008, 01:11:11 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 11, 2008, 11:44:50 PM
I am glad RVW never used an anvil (like Bax in his Third). This thread would be hammered to death.

I am sure that, in every one of his works, the absence of the anvil is of Profound Significance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 12, 2008, 01:19:44 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 12, 2008, 01:11:11 AM
I am sure that, in every one of his works, the absence of the anvil is of Profound Significance.

;D But you know what you're doing, don't you? Tempting Wilfred 'Niagara' Ottevanger!  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 12, 2008, 02:06:24 AM
As I was reading the various Handley obits yesterday, this passage (from Times Online) made me chuckle:

"Handley recorded a great deal of conventional repertoire, notably a complete set of the Vaughan Williams symphonies, which remains a landmark. But the recording studio also offered the opportunity to explore some more recherché works"

So RVW is now considered core repertoire? I wish ...  ;D

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on September 12, 2008, 03:20:20 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 12, 2008, 02:06:24 AM
As I was reading the various Handley obits yesterday, this passage (from Times Online) made me chuckle:

"Handley recorded a great deal of conventional repertoire, notably a complete set of the Vaughan Williams symphonies, which remains a landmark. But the recording studio also offered the opportunity to explore some more recherché works"

So RVW is now considered core repertoire? I wish ...  ;D

Thomas

I noticed that use of the phrase "conventional repertoire" too :) I doubt if RVW would have cared for the expression ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on September 12, 2008, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 11, 2008, 11:44:50 PM
I am glad RVW never used an anvil (like Bax in his Third). This thread would be hammered to death.

:) :) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 12, 2008, 05:12:24 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 12, 2008, 02:06:24 AM
As I was reading the various Handley obits yesterday, this passage (from Times Online) made me chuckle:

"Handley recorded a great deal of conventional repertoire, notably a complete set of the Vaughan Williams symphonies, which remains a landmark. But the recording studio also offered the opportunity to explore some more recherché works"

So RVW is now considered core repertoire? I wish ...  ;D

You should consider purchasing a dictionary.  That a piece of music is conventional does not imply that it is "core." 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 12, 2008, 05:16:58 AM
Quote from: scarpia on September 12, 2008, 05:12:24 AM
You should consider purchasing a dictionary.  That a piece of music is conventional does not imply that it is "core." 

The writer was obviously trying to express RVW is no longer "fringe". Moeran, Finzi or Bowen are no more "un-conventional" than RVW. The writer simply chose a term that people might misinterpret.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on September 12, 2008, 05:31:10 AM
The 4th symphony was the first RVW I ever heard, and my parents were dead set against it. "Turn off that crazy modern music!" The 8th symphony elicited a look of mere annoyance from them, accompanied by a "must you listen to that now?" This was in the late 1960s.

So sound67 could just as easily feel tickled that RVW is considered conventional repertory now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 12, 2008, 05:38:47 AM
My only regret is that I did not know of Vaughan Williams at an early enough age to make myself a nuisance to my family  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 12, 2008, 05:40:56 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 12, 2008, 05:31:10 AM
The 4th symphony was the first RVW I ever heard, and my parents were dead set against it. "Turn off that crazy modern music!" The 8th symphony elicited a look of mere annoyance from them, accompanied by a "must you listen to that now?" This was in the late 1960s.

Ironically, William Glock and his minions denied Vaughan Williams "airspace" in the 1960s because he was considered a reactionary at that time.

Tippett said he thought so when he was just beginning to make his own mark as a composer. He later admitted that he had made a mistake, and that RVW had had a tremendous influence on 20th century English music.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 12, 2008, 06:48:42 AM
Quote from: M forever on September 11, 2008, 02:15:53 PM
So M and scarpia must be the same person.
::)
Quote from: sound67 on September 12, 2008, 05:16:58 AM
Wow. I do think you're M now, too. Same anal fixations.
8)
Quote from: Jezetha on September 11, 2008, 11:44:50 PM
I am glad RVW never used an anvil (like Bax in his Third). This thread would be hammered to death.
;D ;D  :D
Quote from: M forever on September 11, 2008, 07:51:20 PM
for a change, I am not being sarcastic right now
:-X
Quote from: M forever on September 11, 2008, 07:51:20 PMThat's what intelligent people generally do, if they don't understand something  ... 
:-*
Quote from: M forever on September 11, 2008, 07:51:20 PMMost of the people here you can't, you won't get much of interest back, but there are still quite a few, and that's why I am logging on here, too.
::) ::)
Quote from: M forever on September 11, 2008, 07:51:20 PMHowever, if you learn to be a little bit more self-critical and open, then you can learn a lot from a number of people here - exclusively for your own benefit and personal enrichment.
:-X :-\ ;D
Quote from: sound67 on September 11, 2008, 11:21:50 PM
But that's not why he quit a German board shortly before he was about to be thrown off. It was because he pissed people off continually. 
:o :o

Wow. Quite a lively thread indeed, especially with Scarpia Forever at his most selfsearching and intimately confessional, reminding me of another favourite, St. Augustine's Confessiones. In the meantime, I amuse myself with Berglund's interpretations of the Fourth and Sixth - both making a strong impression at first hearing:

                      (http://dvweb.mpf.arcstarmusic.com/mdb_image6/ZP/tZ01P_648390_l.jpg)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on September 12, 2008, 07:18:31 AM
From the Book of Common Prayer of the Church of England-

"Give Peace in Our Time, Oh Lord"
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 12, 2008, 09:09:28 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 12, 2008, 07:18:31 AM
From the Book of Common Prayer of the Church of England-

"Give Peace in Our Time, Oh Lord"

This is the first time I realize that Neville Chamberlain, after his return from Munich, was actually echoing the Book of Common Prayer. To a cheering crowd in front of 10 Downing Street he reportedly said: "My good friends, this is the second time in our history that there has come back from Germany to Downing Street peace with honour. I believe it is peace in our time."

Which brings us back to Vaughan Williams, who foresaw a different possible future in his 1936 cantata Dona Nobis Pacem. It contains a setting of the prophetic words by Radical politician John Bright, opposing the Crimean War in 1855:

"The Angel of Death has been abroad throughout the land; you may almost hear the beating of his wings. There is no one as of old, to sprinkle with blood the lintel and the two side-posts of our doors, that he may spare and pass on."




Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 13, 2008, 04:31:26 AM
The CMG Golden Rule:

"Please treat other members of this forum with courtesy and respect.  By all means, discuss and argue the topic at hand, but do not make personal attacks, belittle, make fun of, or insult another member."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 13, 2008, 04:34:06 AM
But what can you expect when discussing so contentious a composer as Vaughan Williams?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 13, 2008, 04:35:44 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 13, 2008, 04:34:06 AM
But what can you expect when discussing so contentious a composer as Vaughan Williams?

:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on September 13, 2008, 06:45:25 AM
I listened to the 6th for the 3rd or 4th time yesterday.
Strangely, the first time I loved it, the 2nd I was repelled, and just yesterday I loved it again.
I think it must've been that theme in the opening movement which has a tendency to turn me off- it sounds almost jazzy, something I can't stand in orchestral music. But if I ignore that, and focus on the dense orchestral textures (especially in the 3rd movement, too), it starts sounding better to me.
The last movement I've always liked...... i probably said it before, but after reading Karl's review about it, I was really inspired to take a listen! There's an inflection that I hear: one note, a third up, and then back to the same note- rhythm being 16th, 16th, and 8th in the strings.....  it makes me wonder if he was familiar with the last movement of Mahler's 10th, since they sorta use the inflection in the same way- to create interest in what might be too much of a slow, basic texture (although their textures are completely different in this case) that might lead to boredom. But hey, it's just a the space of a quarter-note, just got me thinking.....(most likely there isn't a connection)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 13, 2008, 09:11:40 AM
I have another question: is the wind machine actually meant to be offstage? Also, in some places, e.g. about 7 mins. into the first movement, there is a drum roll which accompanies the vocalist (another great eerie effect which I hadn't mentioned before when I talked about "layers" of more and more dehumanized sound) - is that supposed to be offstage, too? In the recording I listened to today (Thomson/LSO), it sounds like it its.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 13, 2008, 09:13:15 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 12, 2008, 05:38:47 AM
My only regret is that I did not know of Vaughan Williams at an early enough age to make myself a nuisance to my family  ;)

That's a cryptic remark. Or maybe it is a joke I don't get. Please explain!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 13, 2008, 09:37:45 AM
M, have you heard Vw's 3rd yet? It also features some of the features you've mentioned in the 7th, and to equally potent effect, IMO. There are haunting vocalises of the same sort, and, equally striking, the use of distant fanfares, played on 'out of tune' natural harmonics, which is both highly original and inspired as well as peculiarly affecting. It's surely symbolic in many ways too, of course, but we're not allowed to say that anymore.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 13, 2008, 09:39:19 AM
I'm still working my way through V-W's non-wind-machine oeuvre, and have listened to a few recordings of the Sixth.  Boult's 60's recording didn't really engage me, and I decided that I wanted to listen to a recording with better, modern engineering.  I've listened to Haitink's LPO recording, and Hickox's recent LSO release (SACD) on Chandos.

I find the sixth more impressive than the later symphonies.  The opening is superb (especially getting away from Boult, who leaned on the bass drum too hard) and I like the way the syncopated passage that leads out of the opening is gradually transformed into the gentle melody that returns in very lush orchestration at the end.  The return of the opening motif that occurs in mid movement is also very impressive, in how it transforms the character of the theme.

My favorite part of the symphony is probably the opening of the second movement.  I enjoy the metamorphosis that occurs in the statement of the main theme.  Originally the melody incorporates a three-note rhythmic motif and unfolds against a single note insistently sustained by brass.  Later the rhythmic motif is transferred to the single note and the melody is played legato.   When this material returns at the end, more agressively, it strikes me that it is similar in sonority to the close of Holst's "Mars, Bringer of War."  The repeated staccato notes by brass and drums, the frenetic string figuration, the block chords, widely voiced with prominent low brass, all bring the Holst piece to mind.

The Scherzo is engaging, and I think I finally have an idea of what the finale is supposed to be.  Boult and Haitink both play this piece very softly throughout, which challenges the dynamic range of my ears, equipment and listening room (crickets).  But Hickox plays it less softly with some dynamic variation which brings out a lot that I didn't hear in the other recordings.  
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 13, 2008, 10:00:19 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 13, 2008, 09:37:45 AM
M, have you heard Vw's 3rd yet? It also features some of the features you've mentioned in the 7th, and to equally potent effect, IMO.

No, I haven't. Do you know the answers to my questions above?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 13, 2008, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: M forever on September 13, 2008, 09:13:15 AM
That's a cryptic remark. Or maybe it is a joke I don't get. Please explain!

In the post before mine, Mark recalled his parents' sonic horror of the Vaughan Williams Fourth:

Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 12, 2008, 05:31:10 AM
The 4th symphony was the first RVW I ever heard, and my parents were dead set against it. "Turn off that crazy modern music!" The 8th symphony elicited a look of mere annoyance from them, accompanied by a "must you listen to that now?" This was in the late 1960s.

I think that the only Vaughan Williams I knew before I had left to live on my own, was perhaps one (not-all-that-absorptive) listen to the Tallis Fantasia, and three or four hymns from the English Hymnal . . . nothing to cause my parents any especial anguish.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 13, 2008, 12:26:54 PM
Quote from: Christo on September 12, 2008, 06:48:42 AM
 In the meantime, I amuse myself with Berglund's interpretations of the Fourth and Sixth - both making a strong impression at first hearing:

                      (http://dvweb.mpf.arcstarmusic.com/mdb_image6/ZP/tZ01P_648390_l.jpg)



I'm pleased, Johan, that you're enjoying this release; a great addition to the discography. What do you think of the Gibson version of Symphony No 5 ?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 13, 2008, 12:35:05 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 13, 2008, 12:26:54 PM
I'm pleased, Johan, that you're enjoying this release; a great addition to the discography. What do you think of the Gibson version of Symphony No 5 ?

The pleasure is absolutely mine  ;). Yes, I'm very happy to have finally come across these two Berglund performances. I like both, very much so indeed. His Fourth is probably among the very best and his Sixth, though with a slightly less perfect orchestra, is also a great interpretation. I played the Sixth again, today, and fell in deep love with it - a great reading, continued for the whole lenght of all four movements and till the very end. Mightily impressive.

In the meantime, I hardly listened to Gibson's Fifth - also new to me. What I think I heard, are three fine, concentrated and somewhat`solemn' movements and a slightly disappointing Finale / Passacaglia - at least, that was my first impression. Will report on Gibson later, as soon as I gave it the attention it deserves. BTW: what do you think?  ;)  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 13, 2008, 12:44:28 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 13, 2008, 10:00:19 AM
No, I haven't. Do you know the answers to my questions above?

It's not a score I have, but I don't think they are supposed to be offstage, no. According to an article I just found, though, the singers were offstage in the first performance (implying that this was an exception). Here's the article - it contains some reinforcement of the points that were made about the symphony earlier:

Quote from: The Musical Times, March 1953It is doubtful whether any symphony has ever been the object of so much anticipatory curiosity as Vaughan Williams's `Sinfonia Antartica', which was announced last spring at the end of a series of performances of all his then existing six symphonies by the Halle Orchestra in Manchester, and was given its first performance there by that orchestra under Sir John Barbirolli on 14 January. (A week later they gave the first London performance in the Royal Festival Hall.)
By calling it `Sinfonia Antartica', the composer reverts to the practice of his first three symphonies, the 'Sea', the 'London' and the 'Pastoral', which unlike the next three are known only by their descriptive name, and not by key or number. 
The `Sinfonia Antartica' is the most pictorial of them all. Suggested by the film `Scott of the Antarctic', for which Vaughan Williams wrote the music in 1949, it uses a number of themes from the film score, some for symphonic development, some - representing whales or penguins, or depicting glacial landscapes - for atmosphere, and some for both. The vast orchestra includes almost everything that tinkles, jingles or bangs, even bells, a vibraphone and a windmachine, as well as women's voices without words. (At the first performance the singers were placed off-stage.) Out of it all the composer has made a work which stands firmly on its own formal and musical merits, as real a symphony as Beethoven's `Pastoral, in which nothing, not even the windmachine, gives the impression of being used for symphonically irrelevant pictorial effect. It would be absurd to listen to the symphony without thinking of the 'programme', but even the middle movements which are like three descriptive interludes between the more 'symphonic' outer movements, stand as pure music. The second, for all its whales and penguins (which are not to be seen in the music unless you have been told that they are there) is an originally constructed scherzo, very characteristic of the composer. The third, called 'Landscape', vividly suggests the scene described in the quotation from Coleridge that heads it: `Ye ice-falls! ... Motionless torrents! Silent cataracts!' Yet with the Intermezzo, which follows it without a break, and in which the isolation, the waning hope and the serene resignation of Scott's party are most poignantly expressed, it forms one of the most beautiful and daring slow movement that Vaughan Williams has ever written, as purely musical in its use of the most picturesque sounds as the slow movement of Bartok's `Music for strings, percussion and celesta', which its orchestration often recalls.
Underlying all the varied descriptive writing of these three movements is an emotional unity that links them both with one another and with the two outer movements. These, although called simply 'Prelude' and 'Epilogue' contain the symphonic essence of the work. They are at once the least and the most pictorial movements: for it is in them that the women's voices and the wind machine are used to depict most graphically the vast desolation of the Antarctic, yet it is they that have the themes of the most symphonic cut developed the most extensively and symphonically. Even these themes, with their strong intervals and constant thrust upwards, express something extramusical: not anything that can be painted, but the unconquerable spirit of aspiration suggested by the quotations written above the two movements in the score. The one is from Shelley's `Prometheus Unbound': '...To defy power which seems omnipotent Neither to change, nor falter, nor repent ... This is alone life, joy, empire and victory'; the other is from Captain Scott's last journal: 'I do not regret this journey, we took risks, we knew we took them, things have come out against us, therefore we have no cause for complaint. The affinity of mood of these two quotations reflects the musical affinity of the two movements This mood is most nobly and unmistakably expressed in the opening theme of the Prelude and at the end of the symphony Vaughan Williams recapitulates this whole opening section. The effect is tremendous, conclusive, finally reinforcing the formal and emotional unity of the whole work.
Yet it has this effect only because it was not necessary, because that unity was already achieved in the Epilogue's own themes and their development. If this had not been so the recapitulation would be powerless to unify the work. And just as Vaughan Williams is too great an artist to rely on such a device to conceal jerry- building, so he disdains to use it even as an effective finish for a symphony that is in no sense jerrybuilt. From almost every point of view, formal and emotional, the perfect place to end the work, rounding off the form beautifully, would be the climax of this recapitulation of the first heroic section of the Prelude. But that would be too easy, too obvious for Vaughan Williams, so he does the still more obvious - yet the less obvious, for a lesser composer would hardly have thought of doing it, nor have dared to if he had thought - by going on to recapitulate also the second, descriptive theme of the Prelude, depicting the Antarctic scene. It is with this that the symphony ends, dies down, as the composer puts it, `to nothing except for the voices and the Antarctic wind. The effect of this is even finer, and once it is done it is clear how sure the composer's judgment has been. Programmatically it is right, because it corresponds to the final annihilation of Scott's party amid an unmoved desolation. And formally far from destroying the already rounded-off form, it throws it into perspective by letting it recede from the listener, by projecting the symphony, its heroic mood and the heroic venture that it has portrayed, and restoring in the audience the emotion of observers of, not participants in, that heroism, an emotion mixed of admiration and gratuitous but inevitable pity.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 13, 2008, 01:22:44 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 13, 2008, 09:13:15 AM
That's a cryptic remark. Or maybe it is a joke I don't get. Please explain!

     I did that to my family in the mid-'60s. IOW, I know what he means. It's something like "why can't he listen to something nice like _____".
     
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 13, 2008, 12:44:28 PM
Here's the article - it contains some reinforcement of the points that were made about the symphony earlier:

     It's an interesting article, though I wonder how wide-spread the opinion was back then that
Quotethe composer has made a work which stands firmly on its own formal and musical merits, as real a symphony as Beethoven's `Pastoral, in which nothing, not even the windmachine, gives the impression of being used for symphonically irrelevant pictorial effect.

   
Quote from: scarpia on September 13, 2008, 09:39:19 AM

The Scherzo is engaging, and I think I finally have an idea of what the finale is supposed to be.  Boult and Haitink both play this piece very softly throughout, which challenges the dynamic range of my ears, equipment and listening room (crickets).  But Hickox plays it less softly with some dynamic variation which brings out a lot that I didn't hear in the other recordings. 


     Vaughan Williams congratulated the orchestra including the "lady harpist" on the Boult/Decca LP for playing "absolute pianissimo". I remember that from the LP which featured the recorded voice of the composer at the end.

     I never felt the want of dynamics, since I more or less grew up with the Boult LP. The Abravanel doesn't have much in the way of dynamics either.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 13, 2008, 03:03:21 PM
Quote from: drogulus on September 13, 2008, 01:22:44 PM
   
     Vaughan Williams congratulated the orchestra including the "lady harpist" on the Boult/Decca LP for playing "absolute pianissimo". I remember that from the LP which featured the recorded voice of the composer at the end.

Me too. I can still hear that - '....and you, the lady harpist'. There was something very haunting about the way his voice appeared after the intense quiet of the last movement. I agree with the following, too, not surprisingly:

Quote from: drogulus on September 13, 2008, 01:22:44 PM
     I never felt the want of dynamics, since I more or less grew up with the Boult LP.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 13, 2008, 08:05:19 PM
Does anyone have that track of VW speaking? That would be interesting to hear.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 13, 2008, 11:29:11 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 13, 2008, 08:05:19 PM
Does anyone have that track of VW speaking? That would be interesting to hear.

It is unfortunately very short. Link (http://rapidshare.com/files/145128653/09_-_Speech_by_Vaughan_Williams.mp3)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 14, 2008, 02:07:10 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 13, 2008, 12:35:05 PM
The pleasure is absolutely mine  ;). Yes, I'm very happy to have finally come across these two Berglund performances. I like both, very much so indeed. His Fourth is probably among the very best and his Sixth, though with a slightly less perfect orchestra, is also a great interpretation. I played the Sixth again, today, and fell in deep love with it - a great reading, continued for the whole lenght of all four movements and till the very end. Mightily impressive.

In the meantime, I hardly listened to Gibson's Fifth - also new to me. What I think I heard, are three fine, concentrated and somewhat`solemn' movements and a slightly disappointing Finale / Passacaglia - at least, that was my first impression. Will report on Gibson later, as soon as I gave it the attention it deserves. BTW: what do you think?  ;)  :)

I'm very fond off all three versions of the symphonies. I agree that Berglund's No 4 is the highlight, better that the composer's own I think  :o Do you know the new Somm CD of VW conducting his 5th Symphony from the Proms in the early 1950s? That is an essential CD for VW fans I think.

best wishes

Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 14, 2008, 04:31:38 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 13, 2008, 11:29:11 PM
It is unfortunately very short. Link (http://rapidshare.com/files/145128653/09_-_Speech_by_Vaughan_Williams.mp3)

      Thank you. It's a thrill to hear it again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 14, 2008, 04:33:21 AM
Yes, thanks, same for me. My wife wondered what on earth it was, as it suddenly emerged from the speakers this morning.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 14, 2008, 05:59:30 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 13, 2008, 11:29:11 PM
It is unfortunately very short. Link (http://rapidshare.com/files/145128653/09_-_Speech_by_Vaughan_Williams.mp3)

Short, but wonderful. I always loved the Octagenarian's great sense of humour, even in this clearly improvised (otherwise he wouldn't have used the term "wonderful" three times, imo) little speech. In his thank to the orchestra: "Indeed, in some cases your playing was so clear, that all my faults came to the surface. I hope a few virtues have come out as well."  :)

And in his praise for their performance of the fourth movement, Epilogue, calling it "a wonderful feat of endurance to play an absolute pianissimo for three hours on end". :D ;D [my articulation]

Quote from: vandermolen on September 14, 2008, 02:07:10 AM
Do you know the new Somm CD of VW conducting his 5th Symphony from the Proms in the early 1950s? That is an essential CD for VW fans I think.

Yes I do and yes, I totally agree. A month ago, I smuggled it into the house just as you do.  8) :D ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 14, 2008, 10:55:03 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 13, 2008, 11:29:11 PM
It is unfortunately very short. Link (http://rapidshare.com/files/145128653/09_-_Speech_by_Vaughan_Williams.mp3)

Still very interesting to hear. Thanks a lot!

That reminds of a similar spontaneous speech which I have read about, but never heard. When Karajan recorded "Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg" in Dresden for EMI in the 70s (when Dresden was in the communist Eastern part of Germany), he made a short speech at the end of the sessions when they had recorded everything except for the overture and the tape was running, thanking the orchestra and chorus for the work they had done, and apparently, he also made a few remarks about the political situation and what a shame it was that East and West were separated. The secret police agents who were there to monitor the sessions didn't like that and demanded from the EMI engineer that the tape should be deleted or handed over, but I think they somehow managed to smuggle it out. I winder if that is available somewhere. It would be very interesting to hear.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 14, 2008, 12:34:43 PM
Quote from: Christo on September 14, 2008, 05:59:30 AM


Yes I do and yes, I totally agree. A month ago, I smuggled it into the house just as you do.  8) :D ;)

:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 16, 2008, 10:55:59 PM
So today, I got Haitink's recording of the Sinfonia Antarctica which for some reason seems to be "infamous". I have only listened to it once, but I found it rather good and not lacking in detailed music making at all, although I found the second movement (scherzo) a little undercharacterized in comparison to the other versions I have heard (Boult, Thomson, Handley) and the organ in the third movement appears dubbed in and congested in sound. But those aren't "massive" complaints either.
So what is the common criticism of this recording?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sean on September 17, 2008, 04:16:00 PM
I bought it on CD. The piece suits Haitink's temperament and it's quite a beautiful performance, just that it's not as interesting and otherworldly as it can be. Of all VW's works I'd say this symphony captures his special and vital voice best (though the brief Serenade to music is similar).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 18, 2008, 02:55:41 AM
Not the Fifth or Sixth Symphonies, Sean? I think I'm with Luke on this one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 18, 2008, 03:21:50 AM
Quote from: Sean on September 17, 2008, 04:16:00 PM
I bought it on CD. The piece suits Haitink's temperament and it's quite a beautiful performance, just that it's not as interesting and otherworldly as it can be.

A reading both majestic and atmospheric, quoted above as a favorite by several posters.

IMHO, the Haitink 8th is the most problematic of his cycle. Devoid of color, heavy-handed - exactly the approach that is wrong for this light-hearted piece.  $:)

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sean on September 19, 2008, 12:02:12 AM
The Eighth is among his less distinctive symphs.

Must quit this nuts' forum for the weekend at least.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on September 19, 2008, 04:08:31 AM
Quote from: Sean on September 19, 2008, 12:02:12 AM
Must quit this nuts' forum for the weekend at least.

Hello Mr. Irony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 19, 2008, 04:51:48 AM
I hope all the nuts won't leave.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 19, 2008, 08:23:43 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 18, 2008, 03:21:50 AM
A reading both majestic and atmospheric, quoted above as a favorite by several posters.

IMHO, the Haitink 8th is the most problematic of his cycle. Devoid of color, heavy-handed - exactly the approach that is wrong for this light-hearted piece.  $:)

My only quibble with Haitink's 8th is that he does not bring out dynamic contrasts in the third movement (for strings) which saps it of some of its emotional appeal.  The finale is nicely done, and I think his approach to the first (the gem of this symphony) is spot on, with just the right amount of emphasis on the dissonances which tend to accumulate in the later variations and give this movement such poignancy.  The little march is also nicely done but the recording is excessively reverberant.  What this movement needs is a close "in your face" recording to highlight all of the syncopation and details of voice leading.   It's the sort of thing that would sound good in one of the old Decca recordings, astonishingly Decca seems to have no V-W symphonies in their catalog aside from the ancient Boult recordings.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 20, 2008, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Sean on September 19, 2008, 12:02:12 AM
The Eighth is among his less distinctive symphs.

I think you're mistaking lightness for weakness. Lightness isn't easy. It's difficult.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 20, 2008, 02:06:24 AM
Wow, I'm listening to "Fantasia on Christmas Carols" from this CD:

(http://www.theclassicalshop.net/Catalogue/CatalogueImages/CHAN%2010385.jpeg)

What an amazingly beautyful piece of music. The only problem, old people say (and my wife knows about all those 'old peoples' superstitions), if you listen to christmas music before Totensonntag (the sunday before 1. Advent), someone will die.

Anyway. Beautiful music. The singer, the chorus, the orchestra, they go all well together. I love this kind of accompaniment by the chorus in the first part of the piece.
Does someone know if there's a "Hodie" on the Chandos label? I don't find one. The search function on http://www.theclassicalshop.net/ pretty much sucks, you can only search by Artist/Composer.

EDIT: OK, I was maybe too stupid to search. The offer http://www.theclassicalshop.net/details06MP3.asp?CNumber=NX%200439 - unfortunately not as a lossless download. Seems to be a Naxos release? If anyone knows about a good Hodie interpretation and avail. as a lossless download, please let me know.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 20, 2008, 02:26:13 AM
Just reporting back in to say the Previn cycle has arrived and I have put the 5th and 6th onto myiPod. I have been listening to them as I travel and have enjoyed them a great deal. I need to steep myself more in more of the symphonies; excepting No 1 which I have little fondness for.

So thanks for all the discussions and suggestions.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 20, 2008, 02:41:03 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 20, 2008, 02:06:24 AM
Wow, I'm listening to "Fantasia on Christmas Carols" from this CD:

(http://www.theclassicalshop.net/Catalogue/CatalogueImages/CHAN%2010385.jpeg)

What an amazingly beautyful piece of music. The only problem, old people say (and my wife knows about all those 'old peoples' superstitions), if you listen to christmas music before Totensonntag (the sunday before 1. Advent), someone will die.

Anyway. Beautiful music. The singer, the chorus, the orchestra, they go all well together. I love this kind of accompaniment by the chorus in the first part of the piece.
Does someone know if there's a "Hodie" on the Chandos label? I don't find one. The search function on http://www.theclassicalshop.net/ pretty much sucks, you can only search by Artist/Composer.

EDIT: OK, I was maybe too stupid to search. The offer http://www.theclassicalshop.net/details06MP3.asp?CNumber=NX%200439 - unfortunately not as a lossless download. Seems to be a Naxos release? If anyone knows about a good Hodie interpretation and avail. as a lossless download, please let me know.

Isn't that the one with the cello solo?

EDIT: maybe the cello solo is only in the choir/piano (+cello) version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 20, 2008, 03:32:48 AM
Quote from: Guido on September 20, 2008, 02:41:03 AMIsn't that the one with the cello solo?
It starts with a cello solo. Then after 35 seconds, the baritone singer starts with "This is the truth sent from above...".
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 20, 2008, 03:49:22 AM
Quote from: knight on September 20, 2008, 02:26:13 AM
Just reporting back in to say the Previn cycle has arrived and I have put the 5th and 6th onto myiPod. I have been listening to them as I travel and have enjoyed them a great deal. I need to steep myself more in more of the symphonies; excepting No 1 which I have little fondness for.

So thanks for all the discussions and suggestions.

Mike

I have them on CD Mike. A Pastoral Symphony is my favourite of all recordings, as is Previn's No 8, which has a magical quality I have not detected in other versions. His A London Symphony is one of the best with a wonderfully atmospheric opening and No 9 is highly rated by many.

happy listening

Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 20, 2008, 03:54:54 AM
Have just ordered this. Looks like a very interesting historical release:

http://www.symposiumrecords.co.uk/pls/dad_generic/sym_cddets?p_caller=sym_artists&p_cdnos=1377
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 20, 2008, 05:44:08 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 20, 2008, 01:47:41 AM
I think you're mistaking lightness for weakness. Lightness isn't easy. It's difficult.

Sean was talking about the thread namesake's Eighth?  Good corrective, Thos;  the Eighth has its own character, and is quite sufficiently distinct.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 20, 2008, 08:29:10 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 20, 2008, 02:06:24 AM
Wow, I'm listening to "Fantasia on Christmas Carols" from this CD:

(http://www.theclassicalshop.net/Catalogue/CatalogueImages/CHAN%2010385.jpeg)

What an amazingly beautyful piece of music. The only problem, old people say (and my wife knows about all those 'old peoples' superstitions), if you listen to christmas music before Totensonntag (the sunday before 1. Advent), someone will die.

Anyway. Beautiful music. The singer, the chorus, the orchestra, they go all well together. I love this kind of accompaniment by the chorus in the first part of the piece.
Does someone know if there's a "Hodie" on the Chandos label? I don't find one. The search function on http://www.theclassicalshop.net/ pretty much sucks, you can only search by Artist/Composer.

EDIT: OK, I was maybe too stupid to search. The offer http://www.theclassicalshop.net/details06MP3.asp?CNumber=NX%200439 - unfortunately not as a lossless download. Seems to be a Naxos release? If anyone knows about a good Hodie interpretation and avail. as a lossless download, please let me know.

     Not lossless, but really worth having. I mean really:

     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/610Glf3DRzL._SS500_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Hodie/dp/B000TEVLDM/ref=dmusic_cd_album)   (click the pic)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: ChamberNut on September 24, 2008, 08:50:21 AM
I saw the Naxos complete set of Vaughan Williams symphonies for $39.99 CDN at a book store last night.  (w/ Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, conducted by Paul Daniel (1,4) and Kees Bakels (2,3,5-9)

Value for money?    :)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 24, 2008, 11:54:57 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 24, 2008, 08:50:21 AM
I saw the Naxos complete set of Vaughan Williams symphonies for $39.99 CDN at a book store last night.  (w/ Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, conducted by Paul Daniel (1,4) and Kees Bakels (2,3,5-9)

Value for money?    :)

There are other/cheaper options from Amazon CA:

Boult 1 (http://www.amazon.ca/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-1-9/dp/B00007A3E2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222285830&sr=1-4) $20
Boult 2 (http://www.amazon.ca/Vaughan-Williams-The-Complete-Symphonies/dp/B00004YA0V/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222285830&sr=1-5) $40
Previn (http://www.amazon.ca/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-1-9/dp/B00011MK74/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222285830&sr=1-1) $34
Collector's edition (http://www.amazon.ca/Vaughan-Williams-The-Collectors-Edition/dp/B00156ZWV0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222285792&sr=1-1) $60 (this is 30 discs and includes the Handley cycle which is IMO one of the best, and [also IMO] possibly THE best introduction).
Haitink (http://www.amazon.ca/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-1-9/dp/B0002RUAFQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222286036&sr=1-2) $41
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 24, 2008, 01:13:59 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 24, 2008, 11:54:57 AM
There are other/cheaper options from Amazon CA:

Boult 1 (http://www.amazon.ca/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-1-9/dp/B00007A3E2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222285830&sr=1-4) $20
Boult 2 (http://www.amazon.ca/Vaughan-Williams-The-Complete-Symphonies/dp/B00004YA0V/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222285830&sr=1-5) $40
Previn (http://www.amazon.ca/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-1-9/dp/B00011MK74/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222285830&sr=1-1) $34
Collector's edition (http://www.amazon.ca/Vaughan-Williams-The-Collectors-Edition/dp/B00156ZWV0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222285792&sr=1-1) $60 (this is 30 discs and includes the Handley cycle which is IMO one of the best, and [also IMO] possibly THE best introduction).
Haitink (http://www.amazon.ca/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-1-9/dp/B0002RUAFQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222286036&sr=1-2) $41

      The only complete set I have is Boult II, and I can't think of any better starting point, unless you don't mind antique mono sound in the first 7 of Boult I (8 & 9 are stereo).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on September 24, 2008, 02:20:04 PM
Quote from: drogulus on September 24, 2008, 01:13:59 PM
      The only complete set I have is Boult II, and I can't think of any better starting point, unless you don't mind antique mono sound in the first 7 of Boult I (8 & 9 are stereo).

I can't imagine any worse starting point.  That's the one I had first, and it more or less convinced me that I hated Vaughan Williams.  Haitink is far superior (at least to the extent that I enjoy V-W now). 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2008, 04:31:45 PM
Very interesting, scarps. The first I'd heard of the symphonies, it was Previn, who seems well-regarded. Yet, FWIW, similarly, I came away from Previn thinking that, perhaps, RVW as a symphonist was not for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on September 25, 2008, 03:02:08 AM
great opportunity!

RVW's "Hodie" will be performed in Eindhoven 19/12, Breda 20/12,Tilburg 21/12 en s'Hertogenbosch 22/12

Christopher Seaman conducts the Brabant orchestra & soli

More details later

Peter

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 25, 2008, 04:29:46 AM
Quote from: pjme on September 25, 2008, 03:02:08 AM
great opportunity!

RVW's "Hodie" will be performed in Eindhoven 19/12, Breda 20/12,Tilburg 21/12 en s'Hertogenbosch 22/12

Christopher Seaman conducts the Brabant orchestra & soli

More details later

Peter



Thanks for telling us! The same orchestra, but onder Petri Sakari, once played the Sinfonia Antartica for me in 's Hertogenbosch - the only performance of it I ever attended. Now it's Hodie. I actually heard a performance of Hodie in Utrecht, somewhere in the early 1990s, and enjoyed it life much more than I had done before, with only two recordings available (in those days). Hope to see one of these in December!

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 25, 2008, 07:21:08 AM
the concerto for one or more pianos

I haven't had time to wade through this whole thread, but I don't see much discussion of VW's Piano Concerto.

I've never heard it, but it seems that VW fans rate it highly. I am also aware that it exists in two versions, for either 1 or 2 pianos. So I'd like to get some feedback from those who know it:

1. In your opinion, is this one of VW's better or best works?

2. Which version do you prefer and why?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on September 25, 2008, 07:40:29 AM

Ralph Vaughan Williams upon scoring the last movement of his 8th symphony:

I beat the gongs that make the whole world sing
I beat the 'spiels, the 'phones and everything.
I beat the drums that make the calfskins cry.
I beat the gongs, I beat the gongs.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: sound67 on September 25, 2008, 07:46:15 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 24, 2008, 08:50:21 AM
I saw the Naxos complete set of Vaughan Williams symphonies for $39.99 CDN at a book store last night.  (w/ Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, conducted by Paul Daniel (1,4) and Kees Bakels (2,3,5-9)

Value for money?    :)

No. The Bakels readings are highly uneven (solid London and 3rd, mediocre 5th and 9the, appealing 8th, excellent 7th (despite the use of an electronic organ), hopeless 6th, and Daniel's 1st and 4th are only so-so. The weakest cycle of them all, except maybe Andrew Davis' which only has a strong 6th going for it.

The Boult I and Handley sets are great value for money. The Boult 1-7 from Set I (Decca) are mono, but superior to his later set, with the possible exception of the "Sea" Symphony, in which both Boult I and II are the yardsticks for every other conductor. Handley's set is super-budget-priced, too, and has no real weak spots, and good to excellent sound.

Thomas
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 25, 2008, 08:18:08 AM
Quote from: drogulus on September 20, 2008, 08:29:10 AMNot lossless, but really worth having. I mean really:
[Hodie]
OK, no protesters here: I ordered it from an amazon-seller... :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 25, 2008, 12:33:07 PM
Quote from: scarpia on September 24, 2008, 02:20:04 PM
I can't imagine any worse starting point.  That's the one I had first, and it more or less convinced me that I hated Vaughan Williams.  Haitink is far superior (at least to the extent that I enjoy V-W now). 

     I don't think very many listeners will be inspired to hate Vaughan Williams based on any of these sets. Anyway, no recommendation will satisfy everyone.

Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 25, 2008, 08:18:08 AM
[Hodie]
OK, no protesters here: I ordered it from an amazon-seller... :)

     The chance to hear Baker and Lewis sing Hodie after hearing them in Elgar's The Dream of Gerontius was just impossible to resist. I think you'll like the version of the Christmas Carols, too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2008, 12:50:15 PM
Quote from: Spitvalve on September 25, 2008, 07:21:08 AM
the concerto for one or more pianos

I haven't had time to wade through this whole thread, but I don't see much discussion of VW's Piano Concerto.

I've never heard it, but it seems that VW fans rate it highly. I am also aware that it exists in two versions, for either 1 or 2 pianos. So I'd like to get some feedback from those who know it:

1. In your opinion, is this one of VW's better or best works?

2. Which version do you prefer and why?


I like the Piano Concerto and was sorry to miss it at the Proms this year (it is rarely performed). IMHO it is a great work, with a craggy/poetic quality which appeals to me (like the Fantasia on the Old 104th psalm). My favourite version is the one for two pianos (Vronsky/Babin/Boult on EMI), coupled with my favourite recording of Job (which is one of his greatest works). An excellent CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 26, 2008, 12:39:24 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2008, 12:50:15 PM

I like the Piano Concerto and was sorry to miss it at the Proms this year (it is rarely performed). IMHO it is a great work, with a craggy/poetic quality which appeals to me (like the Fantasia on the Old 104th psalm). My favourite version is the one for two pianos (Vronsky/Babin/Boult on EMI), coupled with my favourite recording of Job (which is one of his greatest works). An excellent CD.

     Have you heard the Handley recording with Piers Lane? It's very good, I think, and it comes with the Delius Piano Concerto and Finzi's Eclogue, altogether a very interesting combination.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: hautbois on September 29, 2008, 09:36:17 AM
Was it because i performed in the orchestra and am being nostalgic about it, or was it because the performance was damn good (which was probably not), or was it because the 2nd symphony is really a masterpiece, whatever the reason, 5 minutes onwards the 2nd movement, my goosebumps come every single listening, and yes, with this crappy low quality recording...thought i should share it with everyone here who is a VW fan...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KrtnTmecAE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KrtnTmecAE)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 29, 2008, 01:24:39 PM
Can you be seen in the video?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 29, 2008, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: hautbois on September 29, 2008, 09:36:17 AM
Was it because i performed in the orchestra and am being nostalgic about it, or was it because the performance was damn good (which was probably not), or was it because the 2nd symphony is really a masterpiece, whatever the reason, 5 minutes onwards the 2nd movement, my goosebumps come ever single listening, and yes, with this crappy low quality recording...thought i should share it with everyone here who is a VW fan...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KrtnTmecAE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KrtnTmecAE)

     Thank you. The performance was outstanding! You captured the magic of this nocturnal music with great fidelity! And though this symphony is not one of my favorites among the Vaughan Williams symphonies, it would easily be considered a masterpiece if written by anyone else. This movement in particular can be seen as looking forward to the truly great 3rd and 5th symphonies, though it can be appreciated for itself and not for that alone. And I get goosebumps too when I hear this music!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: hautbois on September 29, 2008, 07:34:44 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 29, 2008, 01:24:39 PM
Can you be seen in the video?

Yes indeed, principal oboe on this video.  ;D

Howard
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: hautbois on September 29, 2008, 07:36:07 PM
Quote from: drogulus on September 29, 2008, 01:41:49 PM
     Thank you. The performance was outstanding! You captured the magic of this nocturnal music with great fidelity! And though this symphony is not one of my favorites among the Vaughan Williams symphonies, it would easily be considered a masterpiece if written by anyone else. This movement in particular can be seen as looking forward to the truly great 3rd and 5th symphonies, though it can be appreciated for itself and not for that alone. And I get goosebumps too when I hear this music!  :)

Thanks for the comment and for viewing! Glad you enjoyed it!

Howard
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 29, 2008, 09:11:10 PM
That's a pretty respectable performance for a youth orchestra, especially with that horrible conductor. Next time you see him, tell him to take his &*(#*&#()!@! head out of score and the stick out of his @@*.

I am not sure I could see you though. Are you the guy with the rectangular glasses and the Mr Spock haircut?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 30, 2008, 05:02:03 AM
Quote from: hautbois on September 29, 2008, 07:34:44 PM
Yes indeed, principal oboe on this video.  ;D

Howard

Excellent performance, Howard. I'm very impressed. It's nice to see, and hear, you too!

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: hautbois on September 30, 2008, 08:16:08 AM
Quote from: M forever on September 29, 2008, 09:11:10 PM
That's a pretty respectable performance for a youth orchestra, especially with that horrible conductor. Next time you see him, tell him to take his &*(#*&#()!@! head out of score and the stick out of his @@*.

I am not sure I could see you though. Are you the guy with the rectangular glasses and the Mr Spock haircut?

Indeed i am the Asian reincarnation of Spock. Not exactly a very impressive comment Mr M. Hah....and anyhow, i dont understand why you are so pissed with our conductor? He contributed a lot in the Malaysian music scene, despite whatever individual might doubt in his artistic capabilities. And definitely, he was inspiring the youngsters, which included me, in that particular performance if not all before. Still, thanks for viewing.  ;D

Howard
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 30, 2008, 09:18:26 AM
Quote from: drogulus on September 26, 2008, 12:39:24 PM
     Have you heard the Handley recording with Piers Lane? It's very good, I think, and it comes with the Delius Piano Concerto and Finzi's Eclogue, altogether a very interesting combination.

Yes, I have that CD too. It is a very good programme. The Piano Concerto is well-served on record.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 30, 2008, 08:13:35 PM
Quote from: hautbois on September 30, 2008, 08:16:08 AM
Indeed i am the Asian reincarnation of Spock.

I didn't say reincarnation. But your haircut (at least from the distance, in the video) looks rather spocky, wouldn't you agree?
Who is the cute girl playing the 2nd oboe? Is she your girlfriend?


Quote from: hautbois on September 30, 2008, 08:16:08 AM
i dont understand why you are so pissed with our conductor?

Having his head in the score half the time is a very basic mistake and deadly sin for a conductor. He doesn't necessarily have to conduct without a score, but he should know well enough what comes next that he doesn't have to look into the score all the time. And actually, he shouldn't just know what comes next. A good conductor is able to "see" the music from the first to the last note. Otherwise, he can't give a coherent, organic interpretation but will just stumble from one way point to the next. The shhhh!!! finger in front of his mouth all the time is not a good thing either. He should be able to instill a feeling for the right dynamics just by the way he conducts. I am sure you guys had quite a few rehearsals, so that could have been clarified. Overall, he is not a bad, but very crampy and unfluent time beater. He clicks from one point in time to the next without fluency and pulse.
I hope you will get the chance sometime to work with a real conductor. Then you will understand the difference. Hopefully.
But for now, as I said, for a youth orchestra, that is really quite good. The very exposed solo passages in the viola, english horn, horn, etc are played with self-confidence. I like that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: hautbois on September 30, 2008, 09:20:53 PM
Believe me, for a youth orchestra, in Malaysia, and probably even South East Asia, you can't ask for more than that. He was principal percussionist for Kees Bakel's Bournemouth Symphony recording of the same piece (which one should really check out!), and for very various other reasons, knows this piece quite well. I understand exactly what you are trying to say, but believe me, we are very grateful to have him do this, because there ain't that many people in Malaysia who is able to pull of this job and command respect from youngsters at the same time.

No, she is not my girlfriend.  :-* And no...i dont really think she is cute.... :-X

Howard



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on September 30, 2008, 09:31:31 PM
O course you can ask for more than that. Don't put yourself and your friends down. I understand whatever else is available may be much worse, but still, you deserve better.

So, are there any girls in the orchestra you find cute...or boys?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: hautbois on October 01, 2008, 08:26:28 AM
Quote from: M forever on September 30, 2008, 09:31:31 PM
O course you can ask for more than that. Don't put yourself and your friends down. I understand whatever else is available may be much worse, but still, you deserve better.

So, are there any girls in the orchestra you find cute...or boys?

I am starting to detect a certain pedophilic aura from M....

Howard
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 01, 2008, 08:32:58 AM
Quote from: hautbois on October 01, 2008, 08:26:28 AM
I am starting to detect a certain pedophilic aura from M....

He is just a man with wide interests and infinite curiosity.

I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on October 01, 2008, 08:41:06 AM
Quote from: hautbois on September 29, 2008, 07:34:44 PMYes indeed, principal oboe on this video.  ;D
Oh, RVW #2/02. Lento!!!, my absolute favorite piece of RVW. I even more like the first edition of it (which is on Chandos/Hockox)
I'll have to download this one at all once first, because the youtube streaming is stuttering like hell (16 kbyte/s, too slow for streaming). Looking forward... :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on October 01, 2008, 11:45:45 AM
Quote from: hautbois on October 01, 2008, 08:26:28 AM
I am starting to detect a certain pedophilic aura from M....

Howard

What has pedophilia to do with asking you if there is anyone in the orchestra you would like to invite to go out for ice cream? That's a perfectly innocent question. Many of the girlfriends I had, especially when I was that ae, I met in orchestras.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: hautbois on October 01, 2008, 11:54:47 AM
Quote from: M forever on October 01, 2008, 11:45:45 AM
What has pedophilia to do with asking you if there is anyone in the orchestra you would like to invite to go out for ice cream? That's a perfectly innocent question. Many of the girlfriends I had, especially when I was that ae, I met in orchestras.

Never mind M, i understand, i really do.  ::) (Referring to the BOYS...)

Howard
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on October 01, 2008, 11:57:06 AM
Quote from: hautbois on September 30, 2008, 09:20:53 PM
Believe me, for a youth orchestra, in Malaysia, and probably even South East Asia, you can't ask for more than that. He was principal percussionist for Kees Bakel's Bournemouth Symphony recording of the same piece (which one should really check out!), and for very various other reasons, knows this piece quite well. I understand exactly what you are trying to say, but believe me, we are very grateful to have him do this, because there ain't that many people in Malaysia who is able to pull of this job and command respect from youngsters at the same time.


     I don't doubt that you're lucky to have this conductor, and his familiarity with Vaughan Williams must have been invaluable to the performance. I would take M's comments seriously, though, especially about cute girls/boys etc.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on October 01, 2008, 02:00:16 PM
Quote from: hautbois on October 01, 2008, 11:54:47 AM
Never mind M, i understand, i really do.  ::) (Referring to the BOYS...)

You certainly don't, because pedophilia has nothing to do with boys liking boys as such. Pedophilia is an abnormal sexual interest especially by much older persons, in young, immature children, which can be both boys and girls. I think the boys and girls in your orchestra are pretty much in the same general age bracket, so if you ask a girl (or boy) out, it has nothing to do with pedophilia. Nor does me asking whether you met anyone who interests you in the orchestra have anything to do with pedophilia since I am not interested in any in the young people there.
I just remembered nostalgically that when I was your age, one of the great things about playing in youth orchestras was that there were lots of nice, musically interested girls in my age bracket there.
Sorry to see you are so repressed that an innocent question triggers those reactions in you. Especially about the boy stuff. There is nothing wrong with boys liking boys. Maybe there is in your part of the world though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on October 01, 2008, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: M forever on October 01, 2008, 02:00:16 PM
Pedophilia is an abnormal sexual interest especially by much older persons, in young, immature children, which can be both boys and girls.
I wonder what the cause for this is?.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 01, 2008, 06:05:46 PM
Oh No!!!!

Please, please...not a discussion about Paedophilia(Pedophilia) in a thread about Ralph Vaughan Williams :(

It's just too much to bear!

I absolutely respect the right of members to have their say about what interests them but isn't there somewhere else on the site for this?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on October 01, 2008, 06:07:08 PM
good point  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 01, 2008, 06:08:12 PM
Thank You!! :) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: hautbois on October 02, 2008, 07:09:22 AM
Quote from: M forever on October 01, 2008, 02:00:16 PM
You certainly don't, because pedophilia has nothing to do with boys liking boys as such. Pedophilia is an abnormal sexual interest especially by much older persons, in young, immature children, which can be both boys and girls. I think the boys and girls in your orchestra are pretty much in the same general age bracket, so if you ask a girl (or boy) out, it has nothing to do with pedophilia. Nor does me asking whether you met anyone who interests you in the orchestra have anything to do with pedophilia since I am not interested in any in the young people there.
I just remembered nostalgically that when I was your age, one of the great things about playing in youth orchestras was that there were lots of nice, musically interested girls in my age bracket there.
Sorry to see you are so repressed that an innocent question triggers those reactions in you. Especially about the boy stuff. There is nothing wrong with boys liking boys. Maybe there is in your part of the world though.

Oh come on M, that was simply to trigger a good laugh here, no need to be so serious. I get what you mean, i think i will never be able to experience the same kind of "fun" that i have had in the youth orchestra in the future if i land myself a professional job. Not that it will not be better, but simply, making music for fun and only fun is something that can never be replaced by anything else.

Howard
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on October 03, 2008, 06:51:02 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 01, 2008, 06:05:46 PMI absolutely respect the right of members to have their say about what interests them but isn't there somewhere else on the site for this?
Exactly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 07, 2008, 08:38:23 PM
Still working my way through Vaughan Williams symphonic works, from last too first.  The fifth symphony definitely has extended passages of great beauty.  There are stunning passages of what I interpret as modal harmony, with bittersweet dissonances, especially in the first and third movements.  Possibly the originality of these passages can be underestimated because they have been widely imitated in cinema music (the sort of soaring music that always appears in serious movies when the main character makes some tragic realization or falls under some deep sadness).  However, the framework of the symphony strikes me as lacking something.  The challenge of a symphony as I see it is to create movements which are vividly distinct, yet fit together.  I find there is too much uniformity of mood in the four movements to suit my taste, I find it lacking in contrast.  Haitink's recording is generally splendid.  Barbirolli's recording from the 60's is also very fine, with especially good audio engineering which gives the brass a weighty yet mellow presence, very well done.

I've also listened to the symphony #4 several times through, and this is an instance where Haitink and EMI falters, producing a recording which is altogether too strident and lacking in color.  Still, it is obvious that the first movement makes a striking impression.  The conclusion of the finale (the fugue) is also extraordinary, but much of what comes between hasn't impressed me yet.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 07, 2008, 10:51:13 PM
Quote from: scarpia on October 07, 2008, 08:38:23 PM
Still working my way through Vaughan Williams symphonic works, from last two first. 

Thanks for sharing. I remember my own first hearings of these symphonies. My reactions were somewhat similar. While I do not dispute the "uniformity of mood" of the 5th, I don't feel it as a drawback, nor do I think the structure is necessarily lacking. The 5th seems to be deliberately static, and I have no problem with that.

The 4th I think is VW's best and one of the great 20th-c. symphonies, period. At first hearing it sounded like a dense unfriendly wall of sound, but I stuck with it. My first recording was Previn's (which is a bit too harsh and monochrome), but I later found better renderings (Bernstein and, so far my favorite, Berglund - non-UK conductors seem to excel with this piece).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: imperfection on October 08, 2008, 07:11:36 PM
The Asian Youth Orchestra (based in Hong Kong) is also one of the best in that region. Good job though, you guys played well.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: hautbois on October 08, 2008, 08:48:31 PM
Quote from: imperfection on October 08, 2008, 07:11:36 PM
The Asian Youth Orchestra (based in Hong Kong) is also one of the best in that region. Good job though, you guys played well.  :)

Thankyou for your comment! In fact, some of our members were also members of the AYO, which gathers, performs, and tours annually.

Howard
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 09, 2008, 07:21:03 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on October 07, 2008, 10:51:13 PM
Thanks for sharing. I remember my own first hearings of these symphonies. My reactions were somewhat similar. While I do not dispute the "uniformity of mood" of the 5th, I don't feel it as a drawback, nor do I think the structure is necessarily lacking. The 5th seems to be deliberately static, and I have no problem with that.

The 4th I think is VW's best and one of the great 20th-c. symphonies, period. At first hearing it sounded like a dense unfriendly wall of sound, but I stuck with it. My first recording was Previn's (which is a bit too harsh and monochrome), but I later found better renderings (Bernstein and, so far my favorite, Berglund - non-UK conductors seem to excel with this piece).

My general impression of the 4th as a symphony is positive, although Haitink doesn't please me in this one.  I also have Hickox's LSO recording for Chandos which I expect to listen to soon.  I'm confused b y your comment about Berglund and non-UK orchestras.  I though Berglund recorded it with the Royal Philharmonic.

Also, I've just listened to the 3rd symphony, again Haitink.  This one I find quite dull and I don't think it is Haitink's fault.  There is some splendid music in the finale which seems to foreshadow the mood of the 5th symphony.  But overall I find the piece quite dull.  Why are four movements necessary which project the same mood?  Four movements marked Moderato?  A symphony should have contrasts, I don't want four movements of moderato, one is enough.  (I'm having flashbacks to Shostakovich's five movements of Adagio).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 09, 2008, 07:50:00 AM
Quote from: scarpia on October 09, 2008, 07:21:03 AM
  I'm confused b y your comment about Berglund and non-UK orchestras.  I though Berglund recorded it with the Royal Philharmonic.

Which is why I said "non-UK conductors," not "non-UK orchestras."

The 4th really started to make sense to me when I realized VW was following the template of LvB 5 extremely closely - it's almost like a parody of the former symphony.

I have had similar problems with the 3rd. VW fans seem to rate it highly, though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 09, 2008, 07:51:18 AM
Quote from: scarpia on October 09, 2008, 07:21:03 AM
  (I'm having flashbacks to Shostakovich's five movements of Adagio).

You referring to the 15th Quartet? It's actually six movements of Adagio. I love that piece  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 09, 2008, 07:55:30 AM
Quote from: scarpia on October 09, 2008, 07:21:03 AM
Why are four movements necessary which project the same mood?  Four movements marked Moderato?  A symphony should have contrasts, I don't want four movements of moderato, one is enough.  (I'm having flashbacks to Shostakovich's [six] movements of Adagio).

There are other means of contrast than just range of tempo;  and why so proud of your lack of discernment of the subtle changes of mood in the Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich?

You would have been at Rembrandt's shoulder, How about a flash of color for a change?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 09, 2008, 08:05:33 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 09, 2008, 07:55:30 AM
There are other means of contrast than just range of tempo;  and why so proud of your lack of discernment of the subtle changes of mood in the Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich?

I will confess to a lack of discernment of subtle changes of mood.  Tempo is not my main objection.  Sitting through 30 minutes of music before the first recognizable "forte" passage is heard overtaxes my patience.   

Quote from: karlhenning on October 09, 2008, 07:55:30 AM
You would have been at Rembrandt's shoulder, How about a flash of color for a change?

Good point!  Probably Rembrandt was too cheep to spring for expensive pigments.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 09, 2008, 01:11:33 PM
Quote from: scarpia on October 09, 2008, 08:05:33 AM
Sitting through 30 minutes of music before the first recognizable "forte" passage is heard overtaxes my patience.   

Well, that is a forthright statement, and can't be argued with.

Myself, I have no trouble with a sustained arc of relatively muted dynamic range.  This, too, is a kind of tension.  With which point, I think your overtaxed patience is a mode of agreement.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 10, 2008, 06:42:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 09, 2008, 01:11:33 PM
Myself, I have no trouble with a sustained arc of relatively muted dynamic range.  This, too, is a kind of tension.  With which point, I think your overtaxed patience is a mode of agreement.

Having listened to the piece again, I realized that the third movement "scherzo" made no impression at all the first time through.  There is some loud music there, some nice passages for brass but Haitink and the Abbey Road recording crew don't really bring it out very well.  It is the first two movements that struck me as unsatisfying muted.  However, the main source of my dissatisfaction is the fact that the truly splendid passages in this symphony don't develop into something I can figuratively sink my teeth into.  It seems whenever Vaughan Williams conceives of something truly awe inspiring, he feels it must quickly dissolve in to an extended passage for solo flute, pianissimo, or worse.  Case in point, the glorious passage near the end of the finale of the Symphony, which evaporates, leaving us with that demented voice tootling in the distance.  Big let down. 
 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on October 10, 2008, 10:49:36 AM
Quote from: scarpia on October 10, 2008, 06:42:09 AM
  Case in point, the glorious passage near the end of the finale of the Symphony, which evaporates, leaving us with that demented voice tootling in the distance.  Big let down. 

That glorious passage is the culminating point of the whole symphony, and it is a strongly moving one, as you will see as the symphony sinks in. Think of these famous lines as you listen to it:

IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

This is the kind of pasture RVW is thinking of in his Pastoral Symphony. Already the piece is growing on you. Keep listening.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 10, 2008, 11:46:43 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on October 10, 2008, 10:49:36 AM
That glorious passage is the culminating point of the whole symphony, and it is a strongly moving one, as you will see as the symphony sinks in. Think of these famous lines as you listen to it:

I did not fail to notice that the passage in question is the culminating point of the entire symphony.   My problem with Vaughan Williams is the way he structures his symphonies.  If it had ended with that passage, swelling to a grand cadence, maybe something along the lines of Sibelius 7, or even Vaughan Williams 9, I would be happy.  Why does that passage (and almost every analogous passage in V-W) have to fade to some to some hushed, pianissimo thing, probably with a solo flute or viola, which you will all explain to me is the most profound music imaginable, but which I have never actually heard because it is so soft that every time I try to listen to it is drowned out by the crickets outside my window?  As Stravinsky said, "Too many pieces of music finish too long after the end."

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on October 10, 2008, 12:05:26 PM
Quote from: scarpia on October 09, 2008, 07:21:03 AM


Also, I've just listened to the 3rd symphony, again Haitink.  This one I find quite dull and I don't think it is Haitink's fault.  There is some splendid music in the finale which seems to foreshadow the mood of the 5th symphony.  But overall I find the piece quite dull.  Why are four movements necessary which project the same mood?  Four movements marked Moderato?  A symphony should have contrasts, I don't want four movements of moderato, one is enough.  (I'm having flashbacks to Shostakovich's five movements of Adagio).



     It took me some time to get this one. This is a kind of daring move, IMO, a symphony with muted dynamics throughout. I think it's a triumph. Perhaps Haitink doesn't really capture it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 10, 2008, 12:07:13 PM
Quote from: drogulus on October 10, 2008, 12:05:26 PM
     It took me some time to get this one. This is a kind of daring move, IMO, a symphony with muted dynamics throughout. I think it's a triumph.

I agree.

Quote from: ErniePerhaps Haitink doesn't really capture it.

Actually, I think he brings a good cool to the piece;  this was the first Haitink/RVW recording I ever heard, and I fell for it big.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on October 10, 2008, 12:38:06 PM


     (http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1986/24616320br7.jpg)

     I'm pretty happy with Adrian Hateful Boult and the New Hateful Philharmonia.  :)

     In fact I think this may be the best of the Boult/EMI set, particularly for the 3rd. In part this is because as good as the LPO is with Vaughan Williams, the Philharmonia, new or otherwise, is just plain better. They are a terrific Vaughan Williams orchestra. If you go through all the Boult/EMIs you'll find again and again the complete mastery of Vaughan Williams they show.

     The Lark Ascending, Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1, and In the Fen Country:

     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T4t0enEtL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

     Symphonies No. 4 & 6:

     (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/01/14896.JPG)

     And under Barbirolli Symphony No. 5:

     (http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9758/82468088lq2.jpg)

     And the Tallis Fantasia:

      (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/8c/f8/d4b49833e7a0a084ae6e1110._AA240_.L.jpg)



     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 10, 2008, 03:26:37 PM
I will profess no love for those Boult recordings.  The Barbirolli recordings are superb, and it saddens me that there is so little of his V-W on record, only Symphonies 2 and 5 in studio, stereo recordings (that I am aware of).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 10, 2008, 11:54:15 PM
Quote from: scarpia on October 10, 2008, 03:26:37 PM
I will profess no love for those Boult recordings.  The Barbirolli recordings are superb, and it saddens me that there is so little of his V-W on record, only Symphonies 2 and 5 in studio, stereo recordings (that I am aware of).


The EMI set was originally planned to be split betrween Boult and Barbirolli but Barbirolli's death in 1970 prevented that. He had only recorded 2 and 5, so a decision was made for Boult to record the whole lot with two orchestras. Previn's was the first set with a single orchestra (LSO)

If I could only have one set it would be Boult's earlier Decca series, made with VW in the studio or, in the case of No 9, recorded a few hours after the composer's death.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: The new erato on October 11, 2008, 02:06:44 AM
(https://secure.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CDS44321-4.jpg)

I notice that Hyperion have boxed their 4 discs of Choral Works under Martin Best at a very reasonable price. Any views on these versions?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on October 11, 2008, 02:35:16 AM
Have just discovered that we're doing Symphony no.1 in our college orchestra this term - this is the only one I haven't yet listened to, but it seems to be regularly seen as the weakest of the nine by folks around here. Still, I'm looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 11, 2008, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Guido on October 11, 2008, 02:35:16 AM
Have just discovered that we're doing Symphony no.1 in our college orchestra this term - this is the only one I haven't yet listened to, but it seems to be regularly seen as the weakest of the nine by folks around here. Still, I'm looking forward to it.

It may be the weakest, or (obviously) the least like mature VW, but it's still a great work, ambitious, sweeping, and penetrating. It explores a sometimes Parry-an (Parrian? Parry-ian? - Parry-like!) direction that VW didn't really take much further, but on those terms it is pretty much completely successful.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 11, 2008, 03:43:15 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 11, 2008, 02:48:25 AM
It may be the weakest, or (obviously) the least like mature VW, but it's still a great work, ambitious, sweeping, and penetrating. It explores a sometimes Parry-an (Parrian? Parry-ian? - Parry-like!) direction that VW didn't really take much further, but on those terms it is pretty much completely successful.

Parry-esque...  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2008, 04:21:09 AM
Quote from: erato on October 11, 2008, 02:06:44 AM
(https://secure.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CDS44321-4.jpg)

I notice that Hyperion have boxed their 4 discs of Choral Works under Martin Best at a very reasonable price. Any views on these versions?

I really like these four CDs which I had collected separately (Hyperion very kindly sent me the box free to put them in, Naxos refused with their VW symphonies box...the small companies are always more generous). Anyway, I wouldn't hesitate. The CD with Serenade to Music on is very highly regarded (although I do not care much for the work itself). I love the incidental music for Pilgrim's Progress (a radio version) with John Gielgud, Dona Nobis Pacem is a deeply felt but rather smaller scale than usual version. The CD with Shepherds of the Delectable Mountains, Magnificat, A Song of Thanksgiving etc on is the best of all.

A great collection and good value in its new format.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 12, 2008, 05:22:33 PM
It includes the Mass in G Minor?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 13, 2008, 01:36:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 12, 2008, 05:22:33 PM
It includes the Mass in G Minor?

No, but the Mass is on two other Hyperion discs:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on October 13, 2008, 04:43:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 13, 2008, 01:36:26 AM
No, but the Mass is on two other Hyperion discs:

I can vouch for the first, especially due to the interesting and quite accessable coupling. It is a pretty substantial improvement over the Naxos disc containing the same work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 13, 2008, 07:25:35 AM
Thanks for that, Sara;  a couple of times I nearly reached for that Naxos disc, but my musical angel stayed my hand . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 13, 2008, 07:32:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 13, 2008, 07:25:35 AM
Thanks for that, Sara;  a couple of times I nearly reached for that Naxos disc, but my musical angel stayed my hand . . . .

Care to send him or her my way? - no one stopped me buying that disc. And maybe Sara's right - the music is sublime, but somehow I have difficulty staying alert during that Naxos disc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 13, 2008, 07:35:31 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 13, 2008, 07:32:24 AM
Care to send him or her my way?

No, but I see the cherub he could send your way  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 13, 2008, 07:39:43 AM
Never mind, I've found some angels of my own. Here they come....


0:) 0:) 0:) 0:) 0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 13, 2008, 07:41:18 AM
None of them bears a flaming sword . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on October 13, 2008, 07:51:42 AM
Hehe, it's definitely not a bad disc, but the acoustics especially leave something to be desired IIRC. RVW's choral "hits" have been quite fortunate in the studio, easy to buy a lot of them cheaply in nice performances, mass included - Nimbus, Chandos, the Helios Hyperion, etc :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on October 14, 2008, 03:00:18 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 11, 2008, 02:48:25 AM
It may be the weakest, or (obviously) the least like mature VW, but it's still a great work, ambitious, sweeping, and penetrating. It explores a sometimes Parry-an (Parrian? Parry-ian? - Parry-like!) direction that VW didn't really take much further, but on those terms it is pretty much completely successful.

Interesting. I'll know what to expect then. The female vocalist is someone in my year at college who hadn't really sung seriously before coming to university as far as I am aware, but last year she played the lead in Holst's Savitri in the Cambridge round church (imagine how good that was), and it was easily the best thing I've ever seen at Cambridge, possibly the best concert I've ever been to.

We're doing Haydn C major cello concerto in the VW1 concert as well so I am happy!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on October 15, 2008, 03:26:12 AM
 :) Exceptional concert in Leuven /Louvain! : RVW's Sea Symphony !


Brussels Philharmonic en Koor Lemmensinstituut o.l.v. Michel Tabachnik
Koorvoorbereiding: Kurt Bikkembergs

Annelies Meskens, sopraan – Thomas Bauer, bas-bariton

Een ode aan de zee. In La Mer schetst Claude Debussy zijn indrukken: 'het ruisen van de zee, de zacht gebogen lijn van een horizon, het geritsel van de wind in de bladeren, de schreeuw van een vogel'.  Vaughan Williams evoceert in zijn Sea Symphony de natuurlijke grootsheid van de oceaan.

Inleiding door Jeroen D'hoe  om 19.15 uur

i.s.m. 30 CC en Brussels Philharmonic

Wanneer

Vrijdag 19 december 2008 om 20u

Toegang

Rang 1: 20€
Rang 1 reductie: 17€ (studenten)

Rang 2: 15 €
Rang 2 reductie: 12€ (studenten)

Genummerde plaatsen - reserveren noodzakelijk

Meer info

Campus Lemmensinstituut
Herestraat 53
3000 Leuven
T:016 23 39 67
F: 016 22 24 77

I'll be there...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 22, 2008, 03:13:45 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 09, 2008, 01:11:33 PM
Myself, I have no trouble with a sustained arc of relatively muted dynamic range.  This, too, is a kind of tension.  With which point, I think your overtaxed patience is a mode of agreement.

Listening to an old favorite, Sibelius 6, raised this issue in my mind again.  Sibelius 6 has the same outlines as VW 3, opening two movements are generally restrained and reticent, a flash if fire in the third movement, satisfaction comes in the finale.  The difference is that Sibelius 6 works for me, there always seems to be an undercurrent in the reticent passages that threatens to come to the surface but doesn't.  The tension is palpable, until the final movement comes and the floodgates of sound are opened, figuratively.  (The recording I have most recently listened to is Karajan's ~1980 version with Berlin on EMI, which is excellent.)  V-W's 3rd, to my ear, fails where Sibelius succeeds.  Perhaps my lack of discernment is the problem, but the first 25 minutes of V-W 3 are just plain boring.  Nothing of interest, no tension, just flutes doodling in the background.  When the big climax comes in the final it doesn't strike me as the fulfillment of anything.  The impression it makes is, "oh, finally he had an idea."  In any case, perhaps I'll come across a recording of this piece which makes sense, but at this point I don't see it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 22, 2008, 06:19:44 PM
You don't feel any undercurrents of tension in VW 3? Blimey - for me, this is the most tension-y undercurrent-y symphony VW wrote! Where you hear flutes doodling I hear a massive sense of disjunction and disconnection, an aimlessness, perhaps, but one that is frightening and disconcerting. The duality implicit in the constant false relations and implied bitonality in this music means that the textural smoothness is constantly questioned by and belied by the harmony, and this is disturbing. The whole symphony proceeds in this way, from this opening state, to my ears...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 22, 2008, 06:45:55 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 22, 2008, 06:19:44 PM
You don't feel any undercurrents of tension in VW 3? Blimey - for me, this is the most tension-y undercurrent-y symphony VW wrote! Where you hear flutes doodling I hear a massive sense of disjunction and disconnection, an aimlessness, perhaps, but one that is frightening and disconcerting. The duality implicit in the constant false relations and implied bitonality in this music means that the textural smoothness is constantly questioned by and belied by the harmony, and this is disturbing. The whole symphony proceeds in this way, from this opening state, to my ears...

My dear Luke, that is a splendid technical description!

Sadly, I am not a musician :( I respond to the piece on an entirely 'aesthetic'/subjective/contextural basis. To me it is VW's response to the landscapes and countryside of Northern France as he saw them during World War One. I know full well that this may be a facile contextural gloss applied by later writers to a work which can be enjoyed and appreciated as 'pure music'. You allude to the unease, the fear evoked by the music and I totally agree.
I used to regard the Pastoral as one of VW's less interesting symphonies. No longer! To me it is indeed a masterpiece which has enormous power to move me emotionally.

I am not-in any way-trying to be critical :) We all respond to music in different ways and I am sure that your own responses are every bit as complex(and probably more so!) than mine.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 22, 2008, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 22, 2008, 06:45:55 PM
My dear Luke, that is a splendid technical description!

Sadly, I am not a musician :( I respond to the piece on an entirely 'aesthetic'/subjective/contextural basis. To me it is VW's response to the landscapes and countryside of Northern France as he saw them during World War One. I know full well that this may be a facile contextural gloss applied by later writers to a work which can be enjoyed and appreciated as 'pure music'. You allude to the unease, the fear evoked by the music and I totally agree.
I used to regard the Pastoral as one of VW's less interesting symphonies. No longer! To me it is indeed a masterpiece which has enormous power to move me emotionally.

I am not-in any way-trying to be critical :) We all respond to music in different ways and I am sure that your own responses are every bit as complex(and probably more so!) than mine.

Oh, don't worry - I agree entirely, and I hear the symphony in the same terms as you do, I must admit. It's just that, well, this aspect of the piece has been described on this thread before, but the superb technical means by which VW creates this haunting sound has not, leaving space for imputations of meandering which the music doesn't deserve. IOW - the effect is as you describe it, but this is (partly) how VW achieves it, that's all. Scarpia descriptions of his responses to music tend to focus around certain areas, as far as I've read them - he tends to mention his dislike of certain instrumental effects, his preference for certain contrasts of tempo and dynamic, and there's nothing wrong with either (in fact, sensitivity to these issues is just as important as any other type of sensitivity). But in doing so he tends not to talk about the notes themselves, and I think that's a shame, because it is there that VW's genius is most evident, I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 22, 2008, 11:58:34 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 22, 2008, 06:45:55 PM
To me it is VW's response to the landscapes and countryside of Northern France as he saw them during World War One. I know full well that this may be a facile contextural gloss applied by later writers to a work which can be enjoyed and appreciated as 'pure music'..

an observation

It seems to me that listeners who believe this symphony to have its roots in VW's wartime experiences have a higher opinion of it than listeners who don't know this detail of VW's biography. Am I being unjust to the work if I therefore describe it as a symphonie a clef which requires such an external prop to produce its full effect?

As an aside, I was on vacation in Karelia a couple years ago, and bits of Sibelius 6 kept popping into my head (especially the 2nd movement). However, my (high) evaluation of the quality of that piece didn't change as a result.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 23, 2008, 12:27:18 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on October 22, 2008, 11:58:34 PM
an observation

It seems to me that listeners who believe this symphony to have its roots in VW's wartime experiences have a higher opinion of it than listeners who don't know this detail of VW's biography. Am I being unjust to the work if I therefore describe it as a symphonie a clef which requires such an external prop to produce its full effect?

A very interesting observation. In my case, though, the music spoke to me (age 16, I think) before I even knew it could in any way be related to WWI. I always could hear VW was holding back, was keeping something in check, which literally becomes vocal in the last movement. So I agree with Luke's 'tension-y, undercurrent-y'...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 01:31:42 AM
Same goes for me, too. I find the piece inseparable from my knowledge of its wartime associations. But when I first heard it, as a teenager, on a knackered old LP with no liner notes, I had no such knowledge - and yet I still felt this menacing, keening, bleak undertone. Even the faster, more literally mundane music seemed earthy, clod-bound, clumping as if on mud.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 23, 2008, 03:12:44 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on October 23, 2008, 12:27:18 AM
A very interesting observation. In my case, though, the music spoke to me (age 16, I think) before I even knew it could in any way be related to WWI. I always could hear VW was holding back, was keeping something in check, which literally becomes vocal in the last movement. So I agree with Luke's 'tension-y, undercurrent-y'...

Similarly, I came to an immediate liking to the piece, in ignorance of biographical considerations, just for the piece of music that it is.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on October 23, 2008, 04:40:51 AM
I didn't really get it until I actually played it, earlier this year. I'm a recent convert.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 23, 2008, 04:54:04 AM
What a great piece to play, Mark!  Learning such a piece 'from the inside' is such a rich experience.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 23, 2008, 05:04:39 AM
You all put me to shame :(

I could pretend otherwise but I have to confess that my early attraction to VW focussed on the drama, the glamour, the grandeur of those scores which made a more immediate impact on me as a young man-the London Symphony with its colour, its passion, its sad evocation of the passing of an age of Edwardian self-confidence, the 4th with its biting, rasping savagery, the 6th with its ferocious anger and bleak resignation and the Sinfonia Antartica with all its superb depiction of an unforgiving landscape and man's futile attempt to conquer that wildness. The other symphonies became favourites later but favourites they have most certainly now become(although I suppose I respond least to the 8th).

I wish that I knew more about musical techniques to be able to understand how composers achieve the effects that they do in the same way that I wish in looking at a painting that I could understand an artist's technique rather than simply responding to the painting as a whole, as a depiction of some person or scene.

Heyho, never mind...we do all love VW's music and that is what ultimately matters :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 23, 2008, 05:18:51 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 23, 2008, 05:04:39 AM
Heyho, never mind...we do all love VW's music and that is what ultimately matters :)

Exactly. And 50 years on, his music is still going strong.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 05:19:45 AM
That's wind-power for you...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 23, 2008, 05:21:48 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 05:19:45 AM
That's wind-power for you...

:) :) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 23, 2008, 06:03:38 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 05:19:45 AM
That's wind-power for you...

POLONIUS [aside]: How say you by that? Still harping on that wind machine. Yet he knew me not at first. He said I was a fishmonger. He is far gone, far gone! And truly in my youth I suff'red much extremity for Ralph's music- very near this. I'll speak to him again.- What do you read, my lord?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 23, 2008, 06:19:24 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 05:19:45 AM
That's wind-power for you...

. . . and with a nod to Johan . . .

'Thine evermore most dear lady, whilst
this machine is to him, HAMLET.'
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 23, 2008, 09:38:49 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 22, 2008, 11:01:57 PM
Scarpia descriptions of his responses to music tend to focus around certain areas, as far as I've read them - he tends to mention his dislike of certain instrumental effects, his preference for certain contrasts of tempo and dynamic, and there's nothing wrong with either (in fact, sensitivity to these issues is just as important as any other type of sensitivity). But in doing so he tends not to talk about the notes themselves, and I think that's a shame, because it is there that VW's genius is most evident, I think.

Believe me, "the notes themselves" are my primary interest in any music.  My problem with V-W is that he obscures the sometimes very interesting notes in what I often find to be a poorly conceived context, whether that means stifling dynamics, meandering structure, or other issues.  Case in point is the finale of the 6th symphony, for which the entire movement is pianissimo, with directions such as "senze crescendo, sensa expressione," etc.  In the several recordings I have of this, with the volume set at a setting where the loud passages are listenable in other movements, I can literally hear almost nothing.  Mostly I hear crickets in the yard.  If I stand up and put my head directly in front of the speaker, tape hiss is as loud or louder than any sound coming from a musical instrument.  I can't imagine this would be any more satisfying in a live performance, except from the front row.   I know the music is actually interesting because one recording I have largely ignores VW's instructions and plays the music at a realistic volume level with some ebb-and-flow of dynamics (Hickox on Chandos).  If course when I mention this (above in this thread) it is pointed out to me that my desire to actually hear the music reflects poorly on my discernment.    I don't buy it.  There certainly is a cadre of foaming-at-mouth Vaughan-Williams fans here, but I believe these problems are the reason Vaughan-Williams is mostly ignored in the wider world of Classical Music.

For me, composers can be divided into three groups.  There are "the greats" who write pieces which I can listen to, beginning to end, with rapt attention, "the minors" (also know as "good part composers") who produce some good passages spaced by dross, and the ignorable ones which don't fascinate me at all.  I'm afraid V-W is decidedly on my minor list, which is a shame because the good parts can be very good, although sparsely distributed.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 10:37:55 AM
A number of misconceptions there, though, as I see them. First is that VW is 'ignored in the wider world of classical music' which, in terms of recordings and concerts, is simply and demonstrably not the case. VW sells, for one thing, more than many other composers do. But second is the implication that VW should have written his symphony with your speakers and your backyard crickets in mind.  ;D The symphony was written for the concert hall, and in the concert hall it is audible and magnificent. Really, the idea that composers should be damned for making these extreme gestures - sustained pianissimo, lack of fast tempi - is a little ridiculous. It's the sustained pianissimo of the 6th's Epilogue that gives it its unique qualities - anything else, any kowtowing to dynamic precedent here, and the movement would simply not work.

No, these examples of sustained pianissimo or sustained slow movement - in VW, in Shostakovich etc - are not misjudgements simply because they tax your patience. And I think you're maybe making the mistake of seeing both VW and Shostakovich as traditionalists-who've-gone-wrong, rather than realising that the formal novelties of theirs are actually rather progressive gestures. To reinforce this, I'd point you in the direction of a contemporary piece which uses classical formal procedures, harmony which wouldn't have shocked Mozart, direct and popular-style melodiousness, every single bar lyrical and beautiful, the texts set well-known and loved - and is sustainedly ultra-hushed, ultra-slow and ultra-intimate for around 2 hours: Silvestrov's cycle Silent Songs. This is one of the most daringly avant-garde pieces I know, in a certain respect. Few people I know can stand to hear the whole thing (it would drive you mad!). But that's rather the point - the crushing, stifling memory-laden quietude and intimacy of the thing, capital-B Beauty itself used as a compositional parameter - it's certainly not a misjudgement on Silvestrov's part but entirely deliberate. The discomfort is intentional. And as with Silvestrov - evidently a modernist - so with VW and Shostakovich - denied their experimental status by those who tend to see writers of symphonies as reactionary. The tension (and requisite attention) that attends these pieces is part of the composers' plan: your sensing it doesn't mean that they've failed, but that they've succeeded. Your not liking it is a different matter, of course!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 23, 2008, 10:45:20 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 10:37:55 AM
A number of misconceptions there, though, as I see them. First is that VW is 'ignored in the wider world of classical music' which, in terms of recordings and concerts, is simply and demonstrably not the case.

Depends on your definition of "wider world."  I couldn't help but notice that except for a few recordings of the most popular works, recordings of V-W are invariably made in Britten by conductors who are reputed as British music specialists.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 10:50:08 AM
Doesn't really matter. Taking GMG as a microcosm of the classical music audience, it's pretty clear that VW has a following all over the place.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on October 23, 2008, 10:53:36 AM
Scarpia's observation is still true though. What does that tell us?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: mn dave on October 23, 2008, 11:01:00 AM
Quote from: scarpia on October 23, 2008, 10:45:20 AM
...recordings of V-W are invariably made in Britten...

That must have been uncomfortable for him.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:06:03 AM
Quote from: mn dave on October 23, 2008, 11:01:00 AM
That must have been uncomfortable for him.

...back to the wind machine again, are we?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:12:12 AM
M - I suppose it simply tells us that performance traditions (by which in this case I mean who tends to play what, not how they play it) build up over time and for all sorts of complex reasons, and become rather rigid (an orchestra which didn't play VW in the past is unlikely to start a tradition of doing so now). It's a complex issue, music reception throughout history, and you of all people will know this perfectly well - it's a little disingenuous to suggest otherwise, to imply that the geographical performance history of a composer's music is necessarily indicative of its worth.

So the programming habits of orchestras don't tend to reveal anything (to me anyway) about the worth or otherwise of VW's music, or indeed anyone else's. Personally I marvel at this music because of the notes VW wrote, not because it is or isn't played a lot in Finland; the notes are enough to convince me of its stature and if the intricacies of performance history mean that orchestras in Finland don't play it, that says nothing about the music.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on October 23, 2008, 11:15:37 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:12:12 AM
an orchestra which didn't play VW in the past is unlikely to start a tradition of doing so now

Why not?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 23, 2008, 11:33:50 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 10:37:55 AM
No, these examples of sustained pianissimo or sustained slow movement - in VW, in Shostakovich etc - are not misjudgements simply because they tax your patience. And I think you're maybe making the mistake of seeing both VW and Shostakovich as traditionalists-who've-gone-wrong, rather than realising that the formal novelties of theirs are actually rather progressive gestures.

How do you mix Shostakovitch in this?  I see no parallel at all between the two.  There are a number of things by Shostakovitch which I'm not interested in, particularly the symphonies with too-obvious Soviet programs and that last quartet, but I put him in the first rank, a composer who created works of true genius. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:35:41 AM
Quote from: scarpia on October 23, 2008, 11:33:50 AM
How do you mix Shostakovitch in this?  I see no parallel at all between the two.  There are a number of things by Shostakovitch which I'm not interested in, particularly the symphonies with too-obvious Soviet programs and that last quartet, but I put him in the first rank, a composer who created works of true genius. 


Sorry, wasn't it you who had the 'issues' with uninterrupted slow movements of Shostakovich's 15th Quartet?   ??? That's why I 'mixed him into this'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:36:44 AM
The parallel being that the one taxed your patience with his extended pianissimo, the other with his extended Adagio.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 23, 2008, 11:43:39 AM
Quote from: scarpia on October 23, 2008, 10:45:20 AM
I couldn't help but notice that except for a few recordings of the most popular works, recordings of V-W are invariably made in Britten by conductors who are reputed as British music specialists.

Made in Britain - yes, overwhelmingly so. However, conductors like Haitink, Slatkin, Berglund, Mitropoulos, Bernstein, Abravanel, and Bakels cannot be pigeonholed as "British music specialists." (None of them are British even.)

Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:12:12 AM
(an orchestra which didn't play VW in the past is unlikely to start a tradition of doing so now).

Wouldn't this have more to do with the conductor than with the orchestra?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 23, 2008, 11:45:05 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:35:41 AM
Sorry, wasn't it you who had the 'issues' with uninterrupted slow movements of Shostakovich's 15th Quartet?   ??? That's why I 'mixed him into this'.

Yes that is correct, but my comment there was confined to that particular work.  DSCH's string quartets are among my favorite in the genre.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:51:28 AM
M - for the same reason they're not going to start a tradition of, say, Villa-Lobos or Enescu: because there's little reason to do so when the repertoire they play is 'working for them'. Though aficionados all over the world may love the VW symphonies (to which fact GMG is testament), if as a series they aren't well-known now in Helsinki then there's not much incentive to make them so, barring the odd (but increasingly less odd) performances.

Spitvalve - yes, you're right: I'm using 'orchestra' to stand for conductor and anyone else responsible for programming. Thanks for the clarification.

Scarpia - I didn't mean to imply that you didn't rate Shostakovich: I thought it was pretty clear from context and from my mention of 'sustained slow movement' that I was referring to your reaction to this piece in particular. My point remains precisely as I made it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 23, 2008, 12:11:50 PM
Quote from: M forever on October 23, 2008, 10:53:36 AM
Scarpia's observation is still true though. What does that tell us?

Which observation do you mean?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 23, 2008, 12:28:49 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 23, 2008, 12:11:50 PM
Which observation do you mean?

This one:

Quote from: scarpia on October 23, 2008, 10:45:20 AM
Depends on your definition of "wider world."  I couldn't help but notice that except for a few recordings of the most popular works, recordings of V-W are invariably made in Britten by conductors who are reputed as British music specialists.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 23, 2008, 12:33:48 PM
In that case, as to what that tells us:  a. that the British musical community has a head start on far the larger part of Vaughan Williams's work;  and b. that at press time, not a great many non-British recording artists have made the effort required to acquire fluency in his oeuvre.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on October 23, 2008, 02:11:19 PM
That's just what Scarpia said, only slightly differently (and more flowery) worded.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:51:28 AM
M - for the same reason they're not going to start a tradition of, say, Villa-Lobos or Enescu: because there's little reason to do so when the repertoire they play is 'working for them'. Though aficionados all over the world may love the VW symphonies (to which fact GMG is testament), if as a series they aren't well-known now in Helsinki then there's not much incentive to make them so, barring the odd (but increasingly less odd) performances.

I don't quite understand what this has to do with "starting a tradition" though. Orchestras and conductors can still perform the music when they want. After all, the scores and parts are available outside Britain, aren't they? There is a lot of repertoire that may not be "mainstream" in a number of places, but it still gets played once in a while. I played the Tallis Fantasia once with my own chamber ensemble in Berlin, and we didn't need to "start a tradition" to do so. We just played the piece (and we had no problems getting the parts, so it's not like there is an embargo on them).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 23, 2008, 04:29:47 PM
Quote from: M forever on October 23, 2008, 02:11:19 PM
That's just what Scarpia said, only slightly differently (and more flowery) worded.

No, I stop well short of scarps's claim that this "means" that Vaughan Williams is a minor composer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on October 23, 2008, 04:51:08 PM
Quote from: M forever on October 23, 2008, 02:11:19 PM
That's just what Scarpia said, only slightly differently (and more flowery) worded.

I don't quite understand what this has to do with "starting a tradition" though. Orchestras and conductors can still perform the music when they want. After all, the scores and parts are available outside Britain, aren't they? There is a lot of repertoire that may not be "mainstream" in a number of places, but it still gets played once in a while. I played the Tallis Fantasia once with my own chamber ensemble in Berlin, and we didn't need to "start a tradition" to do so. We just played the piece (and we had no problems getting the parts, so it's not like there is an embargo on them).

     Yes, it's possible to perform music from anywhere if the scores are available. Are you asking why Vaughan Williams is not performed often outside Britain? It looks like increasingly his music is performed around the world. That's a change from a few decades ago. There appears to be a growing awareness of his music, and where it's now being heard it may be becoming more popular. Critical opinion can evolve, and so can popular acceptance. The prejudice against the "unmusical country", probably more prevalent among musicians and critics than audiences, may be crumbling under the weight of massive evidence that the 20th century was a very good one for British music. Now that music belongs to the world!  :D (I don't know about Bax, though. The world might not be willing to go that far... :()
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 23, 2008, 05:16:07 PM
Oh!!! Controversial or what ;D :)

The Baxians here will be after you ;D ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on October 23, 2008, 10:01:35 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 23, 2008, 04:29:47 PM
No, I stop well short of scarps's claim that this "means" that Vaughan Williams is a minor composer.

I didn't see that "claim" in the post I responded to.


Quote from: drogulus on October 23, 2008, 04:51:08 PM
 Are you asking why Vaughan Williams is not performed often outside Britain? It looks like increasingly his music is performed around the world.

No, I was more asking about Mr O's "people are not ready to start a tradition" statement. Well, I have don't have to repeat what I said earlier...the posts are still there.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:34:24 PM
Simple, M. I read Scarpia's initial post on this subject

Quote from: ScarpiaI couldn't help but notice that except for a few recordings of the most popular works, recordings of V-W are invariably made in Britten by conductors who are reputed as British music specialists

as an observation that there is no tradition of performing/recording VW abroad - 'tradition' meaning not just 'a few recordings of the most popular works' but regular performances of the symphonies and other major works, with the symphonies taking on the same sort of central role as canonic symphony cycles like Dvorak or Bruckner or whatever. The sort of thing that you like to say in fact, as here:

Quote from: MWhy is his music performed far less even in England than any given composer - and I mean any, even the more marginal figues included - from the standard canon of French - German - Austrian - Czech - Russian composers?

(Although as I think was shown by a collation of statistics at the time, that is a wildly inaccurate representation of VW performance in Britain). VW isn't a part of the international canon of symphonists just as other major symphonists like Hartmann and Pettersson aren't, and so on and on, and for similar accidents-of-history, mid-20th-century reasons.

Your line

Quote from: MOrchestras and conductors can still perform the music when they want. After all, the scores and parts are available outside Britain, aren't they? There is a lot of repertoire that may not be "mainstream" in a number of places, but it still gets played once in a while. I played the Tallis Fantasia once with my own chamber ensemble in Berlin, and we didn't need to "start a tradition" to do so. We just played the piece (and we had no problems getting the parts, so it's not like there is an embargo on them).

is disingenuousness, because (of course) I never suggested any such thing, and it's also nothing to do with the point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 24, 2008, 12:36:59 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:34:24 PM
VW isn't a part of the international canon of symphonists just as other major symphonists like Hartmann and Pettersson aren't, and so on and on, and for similar accidents-of-history, mid-20th-century reasons.

I wonder if this is part of the problem for VW. The 20th century was overloaded with fine symphonies from a bunch of composers, and the sad fact is that there's not room in orchestral schedules (or money in orchestral budgets) to do them all justice. At least VW does get some attention - his symphonies show up occasionally on programs in the US, and even in continental Europe (I remember that shortly after I moved from Prague, the CzPO played the 6th Symphony - too bad I missed it). And of course the recording companies have done an admirable job.

Why some composers catch on abroad, and some don't, is a bit of a mystery to me. Here in Russia for instance, Bruckner is hardly ever played, while Mahler is played a lot (I heard the latter's 3rd Symphony just this week, in fact).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 24, 2008, 01:11:20 AM
I agree - and in fact, the high status of VW worldwide, when compared to his symphony-composing contemporaries such as Hartmann et al, speaks positively for him, not negatively as has been implied.

There's also the issue that, whilst as you say 'the 20th century was overloaded with fine symphonies from a bunch of composers', composers working in the genre after, say, the 1940s, were seen in some quarters as rather reactionary: to be New and thus elligible for entry to the canon (which, given its limited space, perhaps understandably has its Hegelian aspects) music had to tick other more obviously innovatory boxes (small innovations like the quiet Epilogue of VW 6th were hardly enough to cut it!). I don't like to write this, as I've always been suspicious of the kind of 'conspiracy theories' (which have evil modernists scheming against symphony composers and others of their ilk) which litter Amazon reviews of recordings of this music. But there's truth, nevertheless, in the fact that VW, Pettersson, Hartmann, and all those others, don't fit neatly into line - they simply come too late.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 24, 2008, 01:40:19 AM
Another way to look at it is that the symphonic impulse exhausted itself in its traditional Central European homeland, but instead of dying altogether, it migrated to places that had traditionally been peripheral to the creation of "classical" music - Britain, the Nordic countries, and the US.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 24, 2008, 01:49:54 AM
Yes, that's an interesting and productive way of seeing it (isn't the subtitle of Paul Rapoport's Opus Est something suggestive of this?...I must check)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 24, 2008, 01:53:22 AM
Six composers from Northern Europe, that's it. Those composers being Vermeulen, Holmboe, Brian, Pettersson, Valen and Sorabji. But that's a digression....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 24, 2008, 05:16:23 AM
In the light of this ongoing discussion- it might be appropriate to mention that on April 22 next year the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra conducted by Yan Pascal Tortelier will perform VW's 4th Symphony in Davies Hall, SF.

I know that a West Coast American orchestra conducted by a Frenchman performing a VW symphony proves nothing ;D ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 24, 2008, 05:28:25 AM
Also just read a review online of a concert by the New York Philharmonic conducted by Colin Davis in April this year in which Davis delivered a 'searing' performance of the 4th.

How come Sir Colin has never championed VW here in Britain but goes to Boston and New York and conducts his music??
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: mn dave on October 24, 2008, 05:34:12 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 24, 2008, 05:28:25 AM
How come Sir Colin has never championed VW here in Britain but goes to Boston and New York and conducts his music??

To spread the good sounds?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 24, 2008, 05:45:50 AM
Quote from: M forever on October 23, 2008, 10:01:35 PM
I didn't see that "claim" in the post I responded to.

That's right;  it was made earlier.  One follows a conversation, you see.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 24, 2008, 05:46:04 AM
Quote from: mn dave on October 24, 2008, 05:34:12 AM
To spread the good sounds?

What about a Colin Davis recorded cycle then?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 24, 2008, 05:52:21 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on October 24, 2008, 12:36:59 AM
I wonder if this is part of the problem for VW. The 20th century was overloaded with fine symphonies from a bunch of composers, and the sad fact is that there's not room in orchestral schedules (or money in orchestral budgets) to do them all justice.

That's it, in a nutshell;  and of course there was less oxygen in the room for the 'musical traditionalists' of the 20th century because of the justifiable demands of the (broadly considered) avant-garde.

All the claims of all the divers kinds of music are justified, to be sure.  Thus, the problem (and the "problem" is also a largesse for which we are all grateful) is that there is more compositional supply than the [orchestral] programming-&-performing pipeline could (or can) accomodate.

Quote from: SpitvalveAt least VW does get some attention - his symphonies show up occasionally on programs in the US, and even in continental Europe (I remember that shortly after I moved from Prague, the CzPO played the 6th Symphony - too bad I missed it). And of course the recording companies have done an admirable job.

Indeed, and the point is that the sustained quality of his work commands the attention.  Vaughan Williams is not a "minor talent."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 24, 2008, 09:54:19 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 24, 2008, 05:52:21 AM
Indeed, and the point is that the sustained quality of his work commands the attention.  Vaughan Williams is not a "minor talent."

I can't say that anyone here is qualified to determine that Vaughan Williams is a "minor talent" or that he "commands attention," for that matter.   He tends to command my attention, then I regret it.
   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 24, 2008, 09:57:26 AM
Quote from: scarpia on October 24, 2008, 09:54:19 AM
I can't say that anyone here is qualified to determine that Vaughan Williams is a "minor talent" or that he "commands attention," for that matter.   He tends to command my attention, then I regret it.
   

I have a feeling this post could have a similar effect on me, so perhaps I'll leave it to better minds to discuss.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 24, 2008, 10:00:46 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 24, 2008, 09:57:26 AM
I have a feeling this post could have a similar effect on me, so perhaps I'll leave it to better minds to discuss.  ;D

0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 24, 2008, 11:25:37 AM
Quote from: scarpia on October 23, 2008, 09:38:49 AM
For me, composers can be divided into three groups.  There are "the greats" who write pieces which I can listen to, beginning to end, with rapt attention, "the minors" (also know as "good part composers") who produce some good passages spaced by dross, and the ignorable ones which don't fascinate me at all.  I'm afraid V-W is decidedly on my minor list, which is a shame because the good parts can be very good, although sparsely distributed.

Quote from: scarpia on October 24, 2008, 09:54:19 AM
I can't say that anyone here is qualified to determine that Vaughan Williams is a "minor talent".

???
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 24, 2008, 11:37:56 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on October 24, 2008, 11:25:37 AM
???

I was referring to my personal interest in V-W.  If he is of minor interest to me, I don't take for granted that he must be a minor talent, in general.  (In particular, I said he was on my minor list, not the minor list).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 24, 2008, 12:14:29 PM
Quote from: scarpia on October 24, 2008, 11:37:56 AM
I was referring to my personal interest in V-W.  If he is of minor interest to me, I don't take for granted that he must be a minor talent, in general.  (In particular, I said he was on my minor list, not the minor list).

Of course. It is a very subtle distinction. You must excuse me if I sometimes got the impression you were a bit lax in observing it whenever some ('foaming-at-mouth') 'fans' here didn't completely agree with your, granted, very personal assessment of RVW's merits. That's all.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 24, 2008, 12:17:24 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on October 24, 2008, 12:14:29 PM
Of course. It is a very subtle distinction. You must excuse me if I sometimes got the impression you were a bit lax in observing it whenever some ('foaming-at-mouth') 'fans' here didn't completely agree with your, granted, very personal assessment of RVW's merits. That's all.

In the future I'll have my posts vetted by the legal department.
8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 24, 2008, 12:29:34 PM
Quote from: scarpia on October 24, 2008, 12:17:24 PM
In the future I'll have my posts vetted by the legal department.
8)

Excellent. You can't be too careful.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on October 25, 2008, 12:19:59 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 24, 2008, 05:16:23 AM
I know that a West Coast American orchestra conducted by a Frenchman performing a VW symphony proves nothing ;D ;)

Except good taste.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:29:23 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2008, 11:34:24 PM
Your line
...
is disingenuousness, because (of course) I never suggested any such thing, and it's also nothing to do with the point.

Do you always have to try to take the moral high ground when you run out of arguments? That gets a little tedious. There is absolutely nothing about my "line" that is "disingenuous". What I said there is true. I am beginning to suspect that although you may play the piano a little, you don't have much actual performing experience, certainly not on the professional level. How these things work seems to be a bit of a mystery to you. Your idea that VW isn't performed much outside of Britain because somehow a "tradition" was never started there is complete nonsense. Sibelius, for instance, used to be not played very much in Germany, but now his music is played much more often. The lack of some kind of "tradition" didn't hinder that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 25, 2008, 04:55:04 AM
Quote from: Christo on October 25, 2008, 12:19:59 AM
Except good taste.  ;)

Of course :) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on October 25, 2008, 07:37:52 AM
Quote from: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:29:23 AM
Do you always have to try to take the moral high ground when you run out of arguments? That gets a little tedious. There is absolutely nothing about my "line" that is "disingenuous". What I said there is true. I am beginning to suspect that although you may play the piano a little, you don't have much actual performing experience, certainly not on the professional level. How these things work seems to be a bit of a mystery to you. Your idea that VW isn't performed much outside of Britain because somehow a "tradition" was never started there is complete nonsense. Sibelius, for instance, used to be not played very much in Germany, but now his music is played much more often. The lack of some kind of "tradition" didn't hinder that.

     This is a stupid argument, really. What's the difference between not having a tradition of performance and not being performed? Not that I'm blaming you entirely, M, just that however it got started it doesn't seem to go anywhere. If you want a tradition you play the music and if you play it for some time you have a tradition. It will probably be idiomatic, too. Does it really make sense to say that a composer is not played because there's no tradition?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 25, 2008, 12:24:53 PM
Quote from: drogulus on October 25, 2008, 07:37:52 AM
     This is a stupid argument, really. What's the difference between not having a tradition of performance and not being performed? Not that I'm blaming you entirely, M, just that however it got started it doesn't seem to go anywhere. If you want a tradition you play the music and if you play it for some time you have a tradition. It will probably be idiomatic, too. Does it really make sense to say that a composer is not played because there's no tradition?

M's point seems clear enough for me.  O. is making the excuse that V-W is not widely played because there is no "tradition" and M is pointing out that orchestras around the world were quite capable of generating a "tradition" when they and/or their patrons were interested in the music. 

I was curious if my anecdotal impression of V-W being rarely heard outside of Britten is really true.  I paged through the San Francisco Symphony's current schedule.  No V-W orchestral music at all, although their chamber ensemble is performing a few folk-song transcriptions.  It's not that they are fixated on Mozart and Beethoven.  Lots of concerts that feature music by V-W contemporaries, including Ravel, Stravinsky, Strauss, Shostakovich, etc. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on October 25, 2008, 12:35:19 PM
Quote from: scarpia on October 25, 2008, 12:24:53 PM
M's point seems clear enough for me.  O. is making the excuse that V-W is not widely played because there is no "tradition" and M is pointing out that orchestras around the world were quite capable of generating a "tradition" when they and/or their patrons were interested in the music. 

I was curious if my anecdotal impression of V-W being rarely heard outside of Britten is really true.  I paged through the San Francisco Symphony's current schedule.  No V-W orchestral music at all, although their chamber ensemble is performing a few folk-song transcriptions.  It's not that they are fixated on Mozart and Beethoven.  Lots of concerts that feature music by V-W contemporaries, including Ravel, Stravinsky, Strauss, Shostakovich, etc. 


I am sorry if you missed my previous post regarding the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra and the forthcoming performance of VW's 4th Symphony.
However, to assist you-

http://www.sfsymphony.org/season/Event.aspx?eventid=27352

I will accept that the management of the SFO do seem to think that the Poulenc Organ Concerto should receive higher billing!

(Oh..and can I respectfully remind you that the country is (Great) 'Britain' not 'Britten'. The latter spelling is that of the composer Benjamin Britten.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:06:43 PM
Quote from: drogulus on October 25, 2008, 07:37:52 AM
     This is a stupid argument, really. What's the difference between not having a tradition of performance and not being performed? Not that I'm blaming you entirely, M, just that however it got started it doesn't seem to go anywhere. If you want a tradition you play the music and if you play it for some time you have a tradition. It will probably be idiomatic, too. Does it really make sense to say that a composer is not played because there's no tradition?

I don't think it make sense to say that at all. That was my point. But that's what Mr O said.


Quote from: drogulus on October 25, 2008, 07:37:52 AM
It will probably be idiomatic, too.

Not necessarily. In fact, there is a lot of "standard" repertoire played by orchestras in many places in ways which are clearly not whatever "idiomatic" may be. One thing doesn't have that much to do with the other. Correspondingly, it is definitely possible for a good conductor and orchestra or ensemble or group to tackle music which they don't normally play but still get it "right", obviously depending on their abilities and stylistical undestanding and all that. But often, we have it that people assume there must be something "idiomatic" about performances given by the "usual suspects" and something "unidiomatic" about performances given by people not that familiar with the music.

Remember the post here by sound 67 in which he said Barbirolli's recording of a VW symphony was not so good because the orchestra (SOBR) "didn't understand the idiom" or something like that (despite being led by someone who clearly did)? But when I asked what that actually means in musical terms, he replied with personal attacks and by evading an answer, and none of you other experts here could explain what that actually is either. Which doesn't mean all that doesn't exist and this particular or any other performance can not be "unidiomatic". But it is still unclear what that is supposed to mean when it comes to that music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on October 25, 2008, 03:51:11 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 25, 2008, 12:35:19 PM
I am sorry if you missed my previous post regarding the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra and the forthcoming performance of VW's 4th Symphony.
However, to assist you-

http://www.sfsymphony.org/season/Event.aspx?eventid=27352

I will accept that the management of the SFO do seem to think that the Poulenc Organ Concerto should receive higher billing!

(Oh..and can I respectfully remind you that the country is (Great) 'Britain' not 'Britten'. The latter spelling is that of the composer Benjamin Britten.)

Oooops, missed that one. 

Anyway, listened to the symphony #2 today.  Episodic, but a lot more entertaining than some of the other V-W I've been listening to.  One noteworthy part is the dramatic statement of the folk-song-like theme towards the end of the first movement.  Beautiful sonorities, but is there more to it than triadic harmony with very widely spaced voicing for full orchestra?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 28, 2008, 06:49:08 AM
Just saw this.

Quote from: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:29:23 AM
Do you always have to try to take the moral high ground

No, it's just the natural place for me. You ought to try it up here  0:)

Quote from: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:29:23 AM
when you run out of arguments?

Given the impotent, angry flailing-around that you tend to indulge in when you realise that you've been speaking rubbish, I think the moral high-ground's a preferable place to be. However, I haven't run out of arguments here - I simply think you didn't quite [want to] understand.

Quote from: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:29:23 AM
That gets a little tedious.

Dreadfully sorry. It's terrible when the tone of one's posts become boring and predictable to others, don't you agree?

Quote from: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:29:23 AM
There is absolutely nothing about my "line" that is "disingenuous".

Oh, but there is, M. You are the reigning monarch of disingenuity - it's to be seen in the vast majority of your pronouncements on this board, and everyone knows it. It was disingenuous, in this case, to pretend that I was talking about a lack of performance material being the reason for the comparative scarcity of performances of VW abroad, even though I never said anything even remotely connected to this - and thus at one and the same time to ignore what I was really saying, pretend you've answered an argument, and paint me as someone who doesn't understand simple questions of sheet music availability. You're very good at it, M, but don't pretend you don't indulge in it. That's a mind of meta-disingenuity, and it won't wash.

Quote from: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:29:23 AM
What I said there is true. I am beginning to suspect that although you may play the piano a little, you don't have much actual performing experience, certainly not on the professional level. How these things work seems to be a bit of a mystery to you.

Oh, but I don't believe I ever pretended otherwise. I'm not a professional performer, though I am a professional musician and know perfectly well 'how these things work'. But actually I don't agree with the fundamental premise underlying this - I don't think being a performer is the be-all and end-all of musical experience, and it's another example of your disingenuousness that you like to imply that it is. For instance, when the other day you wheeled out that tired old cliche of a depictions of practical, battle-hardened orchestral performers v. ivory-tower, head-in-the-clouds composers.

OTOH, it's becoming increasingly clear to me that whilst you've been a professional bassist in your time - I believe you've coyly mentioned it once or twice - and whilst you have a very good ear, a deep knowledge of bass technique and orchestras/conductors/orchestral recordings, your purely musical comprehension is seemingly very weak (or at least, you've scarcely ever demonstrated any...I think I remember a post about Sibelius that whilst it didn't say anything new or thought-provoking was quite nicely put) and your ability to talk about music outside the central orchestral repertoire (you know, that chamber/solo/sung stuff) is non-existent. This, by the way, and nothing else, was the reason why your refusal to give an opinion on my compositions left me pretty unperturbed - your opinions on music itself, as opposed to recordings, hold very little weight with me, as in that respect you've never demonstrated the kind of listening skills that some others here have in spades.

Quote from: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:29:23 AM
Your idea that VW isn't performed much outside of Britain because somehow a "tradition" was never started there is complete nonsense. Sibelius, for instance, used to be not played very much in Germany, but now his music is played much more often. The lack of some kind of "tradition" didn't hinder that.

Seems you simply had comprehension difficulties, M. Sibelius used not to be played very much in Germany - there was no tradition - now he is, and there is. That hasn't happened for VW, and though it may slowly  become the case, I don't see that the present cultural climate is particularly conducive to such things. That's all.

Well, as I said at the top - I just saw this, as I'd been away for a few days. And, guess what, I didn't miss GMG at all, I enjoyed being with my kids and not feeling guilty for turning to the computer when I should be with them. I return to find M still festering in his bile - still angry at having publicly unRavelled, perhaps, or who knows what else. And I realise that I don't really need it, that life is a lot sweeter away from those who obviously have their own personal, pathological 'issues'

For that reason - because of M, and because of a few others - I'm going to deregister from GMG now, without bitterness and without pique, but just because a few days away makes me remember how much better it is not to be tied to the keyboard arguing over things I'm not even that wedded to with people who really don't care but just have a need to argue about something, anything. There are some wonderful people here with whom I wish to stay in touch - but if life is sweeter without the less wonderful ones, why stay? 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 01, 2008, 07:57:28 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 28, 2008, 06:49:08 AM
. . . For that reason - because of M, and because of a few others - I'm going to deregister from GMG now, without bitterness and without pique, but just because a few days away makes me remember how much better it is not to be tied to the keyboard arguing over things I'm not even that wedded to with people who really don't care but just have a need to argue about something, anything. There are some wonderful people here with whom I wish to stay in touch - but if life is sweeter without the less wonderful ones, why stay? 

Luke's musical insights and generous warmth will be missed here, in particular, but I suspect he would not want this thread in M[othballs] Forever.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on November 01, 2008, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 01, 2008, 07:57:28 AM
Luke's musical insights and generous warmth will be missed here, in particular, but I suspect he would not want this thread in M[othballs] Forever.

Ho Ho ;D :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2008, 09:04:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 01, 2008, 07:57:28 AM
Luke's musical insights and generous warmth will be missed here, in particular, but I suspect he would not want this thread in M[othballs] Forever.

Indeed. Especially as I plan on listening to RVW's string quartets this weekend.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 01, 2008, 09:26:23 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 01, 2008, 09:04:51 AM
Indeed. Especially as I plan on listening to RVW's string quartets this weekend.

I hope you enjoy them Johan  :)

I am looking forward to see symphs 5,6 and 9 at the Festival Hall tomorrow.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2008, 09:30:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 01, 2008, 09:26:23 AM
I am looking forward to see symphs 5,6 and 9 at the Festival Hall tomorrow.

Of course! I really envy you... RVW's most perfect symphony (5th), his most compelling (6th) and his most mysterious (9th).

P.S. I'll be reporting back about the string quartets.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on November 01, 2008, 12:37:13 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 01, 2008, 09:04:51 AM
Indeed. Especially as I plan on listening to RVW's string quartets this weekend.

It was originally a quintet, the part for wind machine was deleted by the publisher.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2008, 12:56:17 PM
Quote from: scarpia on November 01, 2008, 12:37:13 PM
It was originally a quintet, the part for wind machine was deleted by the publisher.


;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sydney Grew on November 01, 2008, 04:52:03 PM
Here is a candid Snap showing Dr. Williams's Approach to the Head-lice Problem:

(http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w164/sydgrew/VWInsects.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 01, 2008, 04:54:45 PM
Is that a Benjamin Britten impersonator playing the harmonica?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on November 01, 2008, 05:46:07 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 01, 2008, 04:54:45 PM
Is that a Benjamin Britten impersonator playing the harmonica?

It is Larry Adler, as you probably knew?

However, he/they who go by the name of 'Sydney Grew' is guilty of a sad absence of good taste in the comment :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 02, 2008, 01:27:51 PM
The concert was excellent. Tallis Fantasia (preceded by an off stage choir singing the extract from Tallis on which VW based his Fantasia...a great idea), the Symphony No 9 then Three Shakespeare songs then Symphony 6 and finally Symphony 5. All excellent performances although, for me, the first movements of No 6 and 9 were taken rather fast. I have never heard a better performance of the second movement of Symphony No 6. I must reappraise my Hickox CD of this work. Orchestra was the Philharmonia.

Notwithstanding the lady behind me having a coughing fit during the Tallis Fantasia it was a great afternoon. I am now listening to VW Film Music Volume 3 on Chandos as there are pre-echoes of Symphony no 6 in a number of the pieces on the CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 02, 2008, 03:08:45 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 02, 2008, 01:27:51 PM
The concert was excellent. Tallis Fantasia (preceded by an off stage choir singing the extract from Tallis on which VW based his Fantasia...a great idea)

What text did they sing?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 02, 2008, 03:15:10 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 02, 2008, 03:08:45 PM
What text did they sing?

Remember we had a discussion about this? It was a Psalm. Don't know which one anymore.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on November 02, 2008, 03:25:04 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 02, 2008, 01:27:51 PM
The concert was excellent. Tallis Fantasia (preceded by an off stage choir singing the extract from Tallis on which VW based his Fantasia...a great idea), the Symphony No 9 then Three Shakespeare songs then Symphony 6 and finally Symphony 5. All excellent performances although, for me, the first movements of No 6 and 9 were taken rather fast. I have never heard a better performance of the second movement of Symphony No 6. I must reappraise my Hickox CD of this work. Orchestra was the Philharmonia.

Notwithstanding the lady behind me having a coughing fit during the Tallis Fantasia it was a great afternoon. I am now listening to VW Film Music Volume 3 on Chandos as there are pre-echoes of Symphony no 6 in a number of the pieces on the CD.

That must have been a long programme, Jeffrey? How did you endure such a lot of RVW? ;D

Hickox gets a 'bum deal' here from some for his VW but he has done and is doing so much for the composer and is-I think-a fine conductor.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on November 02, 2008, 03:27:56 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 02, 2008, 03:15:10 PM
Remember we had a discussion about this? It was a Psalm. Don't know which one anymore.

Does this help?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasia_on_a_Theme_of_Thomas_Tallis
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 02, 2008, 03:29:21 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 02, 2008, 03:27:56 PM
Does this help?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasia_on_a_Theme_of_Thomas_Tallis

It does!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 02, 2008, 03:59:20 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 02, 2008, 03:15:10 PM
Remember we had a discussion about this? It was a Psalm. Don't know which one anymore.

Well, different texts have been sung to that hymn-tune, and I wondered which text Jeffrey heard on this occasion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on November 02, 2008, 06:29:29 PM
Real quick......what does everyone think about the finale of the 9th?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mark G. Simon on November 02, 2008, 07:04:01 PM
Quote from: G$ on November 02, 2008, 06:29:29 PM
Real quick......what does everyone think about the finale of the 9th?

If you don't mind taking a little bit of time, you can read back through this thread. Luke was quite eloquent about the 9th and its finale. At some point I weighed in about what I like about the ending.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 02, 2008, 10:09:40 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 02, 2008, 03:59:20 PM
Well, different texts have been sung to that hymn-tune, and I wondered which text Jeffrey heard on this occasion.

I suspect they sang the original Tallis piece with the original words. But hopefully Jeffrey will put us all out of our misery...  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on November 02, 2008, 10:34:42 PM
I may be proved wrong in this; but my understanding is that the orig Tallis setting alone uses the full version of his music: the third of Nine Tunes for Archbishop Parker's Psalter. 'Why Fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite.'

It is a long time since I heard VWs setting from the English Hymnal, but I seem to recall it was an adaptation; rather than Tallis' complete music simply being set to new words.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 02, 2008, 11:12:27 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 02, 2008, 03:25:04 PM
That must have been a long programme, Jeffrey? How did you endure such a lot of RVW? ;D

Hickox gets a 'bum deal' here from some for his VW but he has done and is doing so much for the composer and is-I think-a fine conductor.

More's the point Colin, how did my wife endure so much VW? She loved Tallis and Symphony No 5+ the Shakespeare Songs however, so I am off the hook (for now). There were two 2o minute intervals, so it was a bit of a marathon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 02, 2008, 11:14:53 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 02, 2008, 10:09:40 PM
I suspect they sang the original Tallis piece with the original words. But hopefully Jeffrey will put us all out of our misery...  :)

Sorry Johan but I'm not too sure as it was a complete surprise and there was nothing in the Programme notes about it. It was very familiar from my record of the Tallis and I think that what you say above is correct.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 02, 2008, 11:18:20 PM
Quote from: G$ on November 02, 2008, 06:29:29 PM
Real quick......what does everyone think about the finale of the 9th?

Heard it live yesterday. Wonderful, fantastic. Those last great chords looming up out of the darkness I find very moving. An extraordinary work by any standards let alone one written by someone in their mid eighties.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 02, 2008, 11:32:40 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 02, 2008, 11:12:27 PM
More's the point Colin, how did my wife endure so much VW? She loved Tallis and Symphony No 5+ the Shakespeare Songs however, so I am off the hook (for now). There were two 2o minute intervals, so it was a bit of a marathon.

If I may chip in - it's obvious your wife likes Beauty, whereas you also like the Beast in music...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 03, 2008, 01:32:44 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 02, 2008, 11:32:40 PM
If I may chip in - it's obvious your wife likes Beauty, whereas you also like the Beast in music...

And in art (as in my choice of Corinth paintings in the diner section).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on November 03, 2008, 03:08:36 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on November 02, 2008, 07:04:01 PM
If you don't mind taking a little bit of time, you can read back through this thread. Luke was quite eloquent about the 9th and its finale. At some point I weighed in about what I like about the ending.
Ok, I'll try to find it.  :)


Quote from: vandermolen on November 02, 2008, 11:18:20 PM
Heard it live yesterday. Wonderful, fantastic. Those last great chords looming up out of the darkness I find very moving. An extraordinary work by any standards let alone one written by someone in their mid eighties.
Live, yesterday? lol, what a  coincidence.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 03, 2008, 03:51:32 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 02, 2008, 10:09:40 PM
I suspect they sang the original Tallis piece with the original words.

I remember that verse translation of the Psalm being something of a moufful . . . happily I've never been required to sing the abbreviated archaic verb fum'th  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 03, 2008, 03:53:29 AM
Quote from: knight on November 02, 2008, 10:34:42 PM
I may be proved wrong in this; but my understanding is that the orig Tallis setting alone uses the full version of his music: the third of Nine Tunes for Archbishop Parker's Psalter. 'Why Fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite.'

It is a long time since I heard VWs setting from the English Hymnal, but I seem to recall it was an adaptation; rather than Tallis' complete music simply being set to new words.

I never knew that about an adaptation, Mike;  whenever I've heard the Tallis hymn sung, though, it's been with the text "I heard the voice of Jesus say."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 03, 2008, 10:58:18 AM
@ all: As stated somewhere in this thread before, I think the words Vaughan Williams really had in mind are those from a hymn from 1712 by Joseph Adison on the same melody by Thomas Tallis, and especially its first line: "When rising from the bed of death".

I hope this was the text Hickox made the choir sing, Jeffrey?

For Addison's complete verse, see: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/w/r/wriftbod.htm (with the music added for free, in a superb performance, much to Luke's appreciation ;-) ). 

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on November 03, 2008, 11:10:05 AM
If you like VW's music can I recommend the Viola Concerto by his pupil, Stanley Bate(1911-69), just issued on the Dutton label.

I have written more about it on the W.H. Bell thread ;D

Bate was described as an "eclectic" and the huge concerto is certainly that but........! Recommended :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 03, 2008, 11:13:17 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 03, 2008, 10:58:18 AM
@ all: As stated somewhere in this thread before, I think the words Vaughan Williams really had in mind are those from a hymn from 1712 by Joseph Adison on the same melody by Thomas Tallis, and especially its first line: "When rising from the bed of death".

I hope this was the text Hickox made the choir sing, Jeffrey?

For Addison's complete verse, see: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/w/r/wriftbod.htm (with the music added for free, in a superb performance, much to Luke's appreciation ;-) ). 

Splendid, thank you, Christo!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on November 03, 2008, 11:17:11 AM
Isn't it lovely to have post after post after post of people offering the genial congratulations to each other for being so perceptive as lot admire Vaughan Williams.  Good that we're past those unpleasant times when someone would throw a monkey wrench into the works by expressing a dissenting view.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on November 03, 2008, 11:20:44 AM
Personally, I think singing fum'th is utterly barbarous.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on November 03, 2008, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: scarpia on November 03, 2008, 11:17:11 AM
Isn't it lovely to have post after post after post of people offering the genial congratulations to each other for being so perceptive as lot admire Vaughan Williams.  Good that we're past those unpleasant times when someone would throw a monkey wrench into the works by expressing a dissenting view.


Good to know that you are in that kind of mood. There are, as you know; ways and ways of expressing dissenting views. Unpleasant, divisive posts will not be left intact.

Knight

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 03, 2008, 11:36:29 AM
@Karl, my most genial congratulations for your scarp insights!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on November 03, 2008, 01:41:34 PM
Quote from: knight on November 03, 2008, 11:27:00 AM
Good to know that you are in that kind of mood. There are, as you know; ways and ways of expressing dissenting views. Unpleasant, divisive posts will not be left intact.
Is that supposed to be a threat?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on November 03, 2008, 01:45:16 PM
It is a matter of policy here. We will not be having another outbreak of the kind of aggression that we have just eliminated; the kind of behaviour you have several times said recently that you enjoyed at least watching.

So, perhaps you have some remarks to make about the composer who is subject of this thread rather than the people writing the posts?

Knight
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: scarpia on November 03, 2008, 01:51:48 PM
Quote from: knight on November 03, 2008, 01:45:16 PM
It is a matter of policy here. We will not be having another outbreak of the kind of aggression that we have just eliminated; the kind of behaviour you have several times said recently that you enjoyed at least watching.

So, perhaps you have some remarks to make about the composer who is subject of this thread rather than the people writing the posts?

Knight

No, I have no further remarks to make.
I agree with Luke's sentiments, why waste my time here?

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on November 03, 2008, 02:28:33 PM
It appears we are clearing out the wind machines. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: adamdavid80 on November 03, 2008, 02:35:03 PM
Quote from: Catison on November 03, 2008, 02:28:33 PM
It appears we are clearing out the wind machines. ;)

So long as you're not going out of your way to dance on anyone's grave...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on November 03, 2008, 03:34:42 PM
Quote from: adamdavid80 on November 03, 2008, 02:35:03 PM
So long as you're not going out of your way to dance on anyone's grave...

Yeah, I was mean, but some puns are irresistible.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 03, 2008, 03:48:22 PM
Quote from: Catison on November 03, 2008, 03:34:42 PM
Yeah, I was mean, but some puns are irresistible.

I know the condition...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 03, 2008, 11:21:33 PM
A strong recommendation for Stanley Bate's Viola Concerto (Dutton) for VW fans. It is derivative in places but still a great work (c 40minutes). I have enjoyed it the most of the three recent Dutton releases, although they are all good (the Crossley-Holland symphony a bit like Rubbra.. v nice gentle work). I'm sure that Colin will tell you more.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on November 04, 2008, 03:57:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 03, 2008, 11:21:33 PM
A strong recommendation for Stanley Bate's Viola Concerto (Dutton) for VW fans. It is derivative in places but still a great work (c 40minutes). I have enjoyed it the most of the three recent Dutton releases, although they are all good (the Crossley-Holland symphony a bit like Rubbra.. v nice gentle work). I'm sure that Colin will tell you more.

Yes, I can't stop playing VW(sorry Bate's ;D) Viola Concerto! Derivative-at times almost pastiche but not quite :) There are passages for full orchestra which sound just like VW's 6th or the Bloch of Schelomo. It is however a lovely work-it flows :)

The Crossley-Holland sounds like Rubbra? Can't wait to put that cd on!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 04, 2008, 08:04:19 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 04, 2008, 03:57:28 AM
Yes, I can't stop playing VW(sorry Bate's ;D) Viola Concerto! Derivative-at times almost pastiche but not quite :) There are passages for full orchestra which sound just like VW's 6th or the Bloch of Schelomo. It is however a lovely work-it flows :)

The Crossley-Holland sounds like Rubbra? Can't wait to put that cd on!

Totally agree with your view of the Bate VC. Spot on. I would love to hear his Symphony 3 or 4.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on November 04, 2008, 08:21:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 04, 2008, 08:04:19 AM
Totally agree with your view of the Bate VC. Spot on. I would love to hear his Symphony 3 or 4.

Delighted that you share my enthusiasm for the Bate, Jeffrey (and I notice that you like Casper David Friedrich too. Will it never end ;D)


I am not going to write a long comment on the Crossley-Holland Symphony except to say that I thought it a very pleasant, old-fashioned but overlong piece. It did not grab me, so to speak, but I am certainly glad to have the opportunity to listen to it again. The Ireland and Goossens' minatures with which it is coupled try my patience unfortunately! I am not a great lover of these sort of inconsequential salon pieces which were once so popular(Elgar, of course, composed a number also). They just blur into a sort of Palm Court miasma as far as I am concerned!
Bournemouth or Eastbourne in the summer season ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 05, 2008, 07:48:57 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 04, 2008, 08:21:45 AM
Delighted that you share my enthusiasm for the Bate, Jeffrey (and I notice that you like Casper David Friedrich too. Will it never end ;D)


I am not going to write a long comment on the Crossley-Holland Symphony except to say that I thought it a very pleasant, old-fashioned but overlong piece. It did not grab me, so to speak, but I am certainly glad to have the opportunity to listen to it again. The Ireland and Goossens' minatures with which it is coupled try my patience unfortunately! I am not a great lover of these sort of inconsequential salon pieces which were once so popular(Elgar, of course, composed a number also). They just blur into a sort of Palm Court miasma as far as I am concerned!
Bournemouth or Eastbourne in the summer season ;D


I have to say Colin that I give anything entitled "Salon Piece" a miss, whereas the other pieces on the Bate CD I enjoyed. Today I received a second hand copy of Bell's South African Symphony (Marco Polo). So, in answer to your question; no, it will never end  ;D :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 07, 2008, 11:14:24 AM
Another plug for this Dutton Labs CD which I have been playing every day. The Stanley Bate is very derivative of Vaughan Williams, but, as Colin says, not entirely. There are also echoes of Moeran and Shostakovich but I think that it is a great (as in very enjoyable) work. The other thing about this CD is that all the works are excellent, including the VW Romance (not the Harmonica work) and W H Bell's touching Rosa Mystica.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on November 24, 2008, 02:05:35 PM
A most moving clip of the late, sadly lamented Richard Hickox discussing the performance of VW's 'Pilgrim's Progress' which he conducted to huge critical acclaim earlier this year-

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=S70g9lOya-o&feature=related
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 25, 2008, 02:57:58 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 24, 2008, 02:05:35 PM
A most moving clip of the late, sadly lamented Richard Hickox discussing the performance of VW's 'Pilgrim's Progress' which he conducted to huge critical acclaim earlier this year-

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=S70g9lOya-o&feature=related

Just watched it. Hickox was right it was a 'spiritual and radiant experience that (I) will never forget'. I'm so glad that I decided to see it as my birthday treat back in June this year.  Thanks for posting it Colin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: ChamberNut on January 18, 2009, 05:59:01 AM
YES!!

I've just received the EMI box set of Sir Adrian Boult w/LPO recordings of Vaughan Williams symphonies and orchestral works.

Had to immediately play the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis.   :)

Next up, I think I'll pop in Symphony No. 6  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 19, 2009, 01:57:46 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 18, 2009, 05:59:01 AM
YES!!

I've just received the EMI box set of Sir Adrian Boult w/LPO recordings of Vaughan Williams symphonies and orchestral works.

Had to immediately play the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis.   :)

Next up, I think I'll pop in Symphony No. 6  :)

It is a great box - underrated I think in relation to the earlier Decca recordings. I especially like symphonies 2, 4 and 9 in the EMI set but they are all good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 21, 2009, 07:52:49 AM
This is a very nice CD of historic recordings made from old 78s from VW's own collection of records. It is very cheap too. Highly recommended, especially if you enjoy historical recordings. I have always liked Old King Cole!

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDBP9790&cat=385
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on January 21, 2009, 08:43:46 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 21, 2009, 07:52:49 AM
This is a very nice CD of historic recordings made from old 78s from VW's own collection of records. It is very cheap too. Highly recommended, especially if you enjoy historical recordings. I have always liked Old King Cole!

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDBP9790&cat=385

He speaks very highly of you too, Jeffrey ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 21, 2009, 11:02:37 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 21, 2009, 08:43:46 AM
He speaks very highly of you too, Jeffrey ;D

We are old friends Colin  ;D

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J on March 11, 2009, 11:44:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 07, 2008, 11:14:24 AM
Another plug for this Dutton Labs CD which I have been playing every day. The Stanley Bate is very derivative of Vaughan Williams, but, as Colin says, not entirely. There are also echoes of Moeran and Shostakovich but I think that it is a great (as in very enjoyable) work. The other thing about this CD is that all the works are excellent, including the VW Romance (not the Harmonica work) and W H Bell's touching Rosa Mystica.



I can't go nearly so far as Colin & Jeffrey in their praise of Bate's Viola Concerto (I think Jeffrey went even further elsewhere and called it "a magnificent score").  I've listened to the piece perhaps a dozen times now, and for what it's worth my own response is rather mixed.  There's some very inspired and beautiful music here I feel, but plenty also of what is sometimes called "note-spinning". In the 2nd movement for example, the basic theme and opening four minutes are captivatingly beautiful and first-rate.  But almost right at that point (4') the quality of the music noticeably changes (IMO), the inspiration disappears, and everything becomes rather prolix and tedious, and my attention wanders until just about the 8' mark where the opening music returns and brings me back.  The same thing happens in the 1rst movement (and to a large extent the 4rth) - initial involvement and enthusiasm that isn't sustained - but returns at the end.  I have little capacity for musical analysis, but I believe in what's called the "development phase" of the three long movements (1,2,&4), where Bate elaborates on and complexifies his themes, the music is lacking, - it's prosaic, and often too loud and over-saturated.  He can't really carry things through with the same inspiration he starts with, and that compromises my enjoyment of the piece severely.
   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 12, 2009, 03:58:46 AM
Quote from: J on March 11, 2009, 11:44:40 AM
I can't go nearly so far as Colin & Jeffrey in their praise of Bate's Viola Concerto (I think Jeffrey went even further elsewhere and called it "a magnificent score").  I've listened to the piece perhaps a dozen times now, and for what it's worth my own response is rather mixed.  There's some very inspired and beautiful music here I feel, but plenty also of what is sometimes called "note-spinning". In the 2nd movement for example, the basic theme and opening four minutes are captivatingly beautiful and first-rate.  But almost right at that point (4') the quality of the music noticeably changes (IMO), the inspiration disappears, and everything becomes rather prolix and tedious, and my attention wanders until just about the 8' mark where the opening music returns and brings me back.  The same thing happens in the 1rst movement (and to a large extent the 4rth) - initial involvement and enthusiasm that isn't sustained - but returns at the end.  I have little capacity for musical analysis, but I believe in what's called the "development phase" of the three long movements (1,2,&4), where Bate elaborates on and complexifies his themes, the music is lacking, - it's prosaic, and often too loud and over-saturated.  He can't really carry things through with the same inspiration he starts with, and that compromises my enjoyment of the piece severely.
   

Interesting analysis -thank you. In one of the postings above, I said that it was great - in the sense that I enjoyed it very much - which I still do.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on March 12, 2009, 07:36:57 AM
On 4 and 5 april : two performances of Dona nobis pacem ( near Antwerp) ! A good ( and quite brave!) idea. I'll be there.

Programma

Ouverture tot 'Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg'   R. Wagner      
Adagio for strings   S. Barber         
Les Préludes   F. Liszt
   
      
Dona Nobis Pacem    R. Vaughan Williams

   Euregio Jeugdorkest

   Annelies Meskens, soprano
   
   Frank Hermans, baritone

   Eindhovens Kamerkoor, voorbereid door Wolgang Lange
   
   Musica Nova uit Boom, voorbereid door Paul Dinneweth
   
   Tilburgs Vocaal Ensemble uit Tilburg, voorbereid door Ramon van
   den Boom


   Conductor: Hans Casteleyn
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J on March 12, 2009, 03:37:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 12, 2009, 03:58:46 AM
Interesting analysis -thank you. In one of the postings above, I said that it was great - in the sense that I enjoyed it very much - which I still do.

Do the movements "hold up" from start to finish in your experience, or do you find significant lapses in the middle sections like I do?

Have you had any awareness of seriously flagging attention for considerable stretches while listening?


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on March 12, 2009, 04:45:11 PM
Quote from: pjme on March 12, 2009, 07:36:57 AM
Ouverture tot 'Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg'   R. Wagner      
Adagio for strings   S. Barber         
Les Préludes   F. Liszt   
Dona Nobis Pacem    R. Vaughan Williams

Neat lineup - it has something for everybody.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on March 12, 2009, 05:36:33 PM
Quote from: J on March 12, 2009, 03:37:06 PM
Do the movements "hold up" from start to finish in your experience, or do you find significant lapses in the middle sections like I do?

Have you had any awareness of seriously flagging attention for considerable stretches while listening?




I know that you are addressing this question to Jeffrey- but I certainly cannot recall my attention flagging while listening to the Bate Viola Concerto(unlike, I have to sadly admit, the Arthur Butterworth Viola Concerto).

I shall listen to it again though to see if I can find substance to your argument :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 14, 2009, 07:09:58 AM
Quote from: J on March 12, 2009, 03:37:06 PM
Do the movements "hold up" from start to finish in your experience, or do you find significant lapses in the middle sections like I do?

Have you had any awareness of seriously flagging attention for considerable stretches while listening?

Just listened again to the Bate Viola Concerto again to check. No, my attention too was pretty well gripped throughout - although the last movement is perhaps a bit rambling in places. I do really like the work, with its endearing mix of Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J on March 16, 2009, 11:04:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 14, 2009, 07:09:58 AM
Just listened again to the Bate Viola Concerto again to check. No, my attention too was pretty well gripped throughout - although the last movement is perhaps a bit rambling in places. I do really like the work, with its endearing mix of Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich.

Well then.  I'll assume those "dead" sections I complain about express something idiosyncratically British, and so fail to elicit the sympathetic resonance in me they do in you and Colin.  :o   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on March 16, 2009, 03:19:34 PM
Quote from: J on March 16, 2009, 11:04:59 AM
Well then.  I'll assume those "dead" sections I complain about express something idiosyncratically British, and so fail to elicit the sympathetic resonance in me they do in you and Colin.  :o   

;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 18, 2009, 05:40:37 AM
Quote from: J on March 16, 2009, 11:04:59 AM
Well then.  I'll assume those "dead" sections I complain about express something idiosyncratically British, and so fail to elicit the sympathetic resonance in me they do in you and Colin.  :o   

As you will agree, the most fitting epitaph for any Briton is Dorothy Parker's famous response when she was told that Calvin Coolidge had died: `How can they tell?'  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on March 18, 2009, 09:21:59 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 18, 2009, 05:40:37 AM
As you will agree, the most fitting epitaph for any Briton is Dorothy Parker's famous response when she was told that Calvin Coolidge had died: `How can they tell?'  ;)

"As you will agree..." ??? ???

Who will agree? I certainly don't!

Are you seeking to launch the Fifth Anglo-Dutch War, Johan ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 18, 2009, 09:55:26 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 18, 2009, 09:21:59 AM
Are you seeking to launch the Fifth Anglo-Dutch War, Johan ;D

Were you dissatified with the outcome of the Fourth (1780-84) then?  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on March 18, 2009, 10:18:16 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 18, 2009, 09:55:26 AM
Were you dissatified with the outcome of the Fourth (1780-84) then?  ;)

Not at all!  I seem to recall that your fleet had to be scattered to your overseas colonies because the British(when they were not being confused for dead ;D) controlled the North Sea. I thought that it was perhaps you who might be seeking more redress ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on March 18, 2009, 10:46:01 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 18, 2009, 09:21:59 AM
Are you seeking to launch the Fifth Anglo-Dutch War, Johan ;D

We've had four already?! Well you learn something new every day.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on March 18, 2009, 03:01:43 PM
Quote from: Guido on March 18, 2009, 10:46:01 AM
We've had four already?! Well you learn something new every day.

You are a scientist, Guido...wouldn't expect you to know ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Dutch_Wars
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on March 18, 2009, 03:32:00 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 18, 2009, 03:01:43 PM
You are a scientist, Guido...wouldn't expect you to know ;D

Quite! If you can't measure it in some way, I'm not interested!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Renfield on March 18, 2009, 08:52:46 PM
Quote from: Guido on March 18, 2009, 03:32:00 PM
Quite! If you can't measure it in some way, I'm not interested!  ;D

*counts to four on his fingers*


And that, ladies and gentlemen, is embodied cognition(??)! ;D

(I can't let you lot play on your own, now, can I?)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on April 20, 2009, 02:28:02 PM
Quote from: J on March 11, 2009, 11:44:40 AM
I can't go nearly so far as Colin & Jeffrey in their praise of Bate's Viola Concerto (I think Jeffrey went even further elsewhere and called it "a magnificent score").  I've listened to the piece perhaps a dozen times now, and for what it's worth my own response is rather mixed.  There's some very inspired and beautiful music here I feel, but plenty also of what is sometimes called "note-spinning". In the 2nd movement for example, the basic theme and opening four minutes are captivatingly beautiful and first-rate.  But almost right at that point (4') the quality of the music noticeably changes (IMO), the inspiration disappears, and everything becomes rather prolix and tedious, and my attention wanders until just about the 8' mark where the opening music returns and brings me back.  The same thing happens in the 1rst movement (and to a large extent the 4rth) - initial involvement and enthusiasm that isn't sustained - but returns at the end.  I have little capacity for musical analysis, but I believe in what's called the "development phase" of the three long movements (1,2,&4), where Bate elaborates on and complexifies his themes, the music is lacking, - it's prosaic, and often too loud and over-saturated.  He can't really carry things through with the same inspiration he starts with, and that compromises my enjoyment of the piece severely.
   

I know that this a thread about Vaughan Williams and I apologise to the Grand Old Man(who would not have objected to the digression!)...... but the April issue of 'Tempo' has a review of the Bate Viola Concerto by Brett Johnson. Johnson writes-

"A wondrous CD....It is true that Bate felt a strong affinity with his teacher Vaughan Williams, whose influence is strongly felt at places in the Viola Concerto. But how Bate picks up VW's emotional language and makes it his own! This is emphatically not a work of discipleshp but a powerful essay of lyrical grandeur. The heavily atmospheric slow movement and the ensuing feather-light scherzo are masterly, in my opinion."

Johnson goes on to say that Dutton are planning to record two of Bate's four symphonies this year :) This is fantastic news!! Hopefully the two will be Nos. 3 and 4(of whom good things have been written). Once again we shall be in debt to the enterprise of this marvellous little company :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on May 31, 2009, 02:33:01 PM
I like his hymnody, but I had much rather sing it than listen to a recording of it (FWIW).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on June 04, 2009, 01:38:11 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 31, 2009, 02:33:01 PM
I like his hymnody, but I had much rather sing it than listen to a recording of it (FWIW).

Have you heard his Henry V Overture for brass band?  It is quite something!!  We played it in the band, and it was a riot to perform.  In the right hands, though, it is breathtaking, if you like your music a little bombastic.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 05, 2009, 03:08:18 AM
A little bombast now and again isn't at all a bad thing!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 05, 2009, 03:11:05 AM
Quote from: Catison on June 04, 2009, 01:38:11 PM
Have you heard his Henry V Overture for brass band?  It is quite something!!  We played it in the band, and it was a riot to perform.  In the right hands, though, it is breathtaking, if you like your music a little bombastic.

It's a great piece - I have the Chandos CD. It influenced Walton's score for the movie Henry V.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on June 08, 2009, 09:57:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 05, 2009, 03:11:05 AM
It's a great piece - I have the Chandos CD. It influenced Walton's score for the movie Henry V.

Listening to the Vaughan Williams film music now, and it appears that some of the themes to the overture come from the score to The People's Land, or perhaps the other way around.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 08:37:08 AM
Fresh listen to the Tallis Fantasia, which I remember really enjoying live at Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 09:27:40 AM
Flos campi is certainly on my short list of Desert Island RVW!

Write it off as a personal/composerly thing . . . but there are tunes I've used in music of my own, knowledge of which I certainly owe to Vaughan Williams . . . but, well, I like my pieces better.

Lest that give a seeming of patting mine own back . . . this idea (of preferring my own, of a brace of pieces based on the same earlier source-material) hadn't occurred to me until a colleague paid me the compliment of saying he liked my "Fantasy on a Tallis Theme" better than the Vaughan Williams.  Before then, the idea of comparison was off my screen (it has to be, to write one's own music in such a case).  But, my own score now long finalized . . . and much though I do like the Vaughan Williams, well . . . one's own shirt is closer to one's skin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on June 14, 2009, 03:52:58 AM
I see no problem what ever in you liking your own creations more. Now the real question: do you think your work of a higher quality?  >:D 0:)

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2009, 05:10:37 AM
VW is one of my very favourite composers - but there are a number of works that I have never much cared for. These include The Wasps and the Serenade to Music (I prefer the non-vocal version), which are amongst his most popular works - strange.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on June 14, 2009, 05:35:16 AM
I prefer a choral version of the serenade as against the soloist versions. There were something like 16 soloists, all the great and good singers of the time, so many just get a phrase or two in which to make their mark. It sounds disjointed to my ears. In live performances I have heard, same thing applied.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 14, 2009, 07:13:21 AM
Quote from: knight on June 14, 2009, 03:52:58 AM
I see no problem what ever in you liking your own creations more. Now the real question: do you think your work of a higher quality?  >:D 0:)

0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on June 14, 2009, 07:14:48 AM
 ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 14, 2009, 07:19:51 AM
The two pieces of mine under advisement are much modester in scope; so there's no contest.  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2009, 11:45:40 PM
BBC Radio 3 are repeating an award winning documentary about Vaughan Williams this Sunday (21st June) at 9.30am BST.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on June 16, 2009, 12:51:19 PM


     I enjoy the Boult/EMI Serenade to music, though I don't get around to it often. I did see this work performed by a chorus with piano accompaniment, and it came off beautifully, though I felt the need for an orchestra.

      Flos Campi is a wonderful work. It's up there with Job for me, and that's way up. One of the things I like best about RVW is how he produced music in all shapes and sizes, not just symphonies. The short works are as impressive for their scale as the long ones.

      I've listened to this disc often:

      (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/Dec01/RVWmass.gif)

      In addition to the Mass you have motets, a hymn and an anthem. It's good to get away from the symphonies and the big choral pieces and hear these smaller works. The one lack I feel is for a major statement for the organ. Why didn't he produce one? The organ is prominent in many of his works (for example Lord, Thou hast been our refuge on this disc), so organ-ophiles like me are feeling a bit neglected. Couldn't he have skipped the tuba and harmonica and made us happy?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 16, 2009, 04:43:29 PM
Anyone have performance info on the Handley recording of Job?  I'm curious where it was recorded; that organ is imperial!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on June 17, 2009, 04:23:28 AM
Quote from: drogulus on June 16, 2009, 12:51:19 PM
Couldn't he have skipped the tuba and harmonica and made us happy?

No, because then I would be very unhappy.  That tuba concerto is an absolute masterpiece for the instrument and all future tuba concertos are in some way indebted to it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on June 17, 2009, 05:00:43 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:43:29 PM
Anyone have performance info on the Handley recording of Job?  I'm curious where it was recorded; that organ is imperial!

St.Augustine's Church, Kilburn, London..Karl.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 17, 2009, 05:04:15 AM
Thanks, Colin! That recording sounds so splendid, it made me glad that I didn't act on my initial curiosity for the Naxos recording (which was the first I was aware of Job).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 17, 2009, 05:06:13 AM
(Of course, there's no reason they cannot both be excellent recordings . . . .)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on June 17, 2009, 05:12:42 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 17, 2009, 05:06:13 AM
(Of course, there's no reason they cannot both be excellent recordings . . . .)

....and they are ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 17, 2009, 05:17:36 AM
Hah!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 05:33:42 AM
One especially nice item on a recent organ recital I attended, was a transcription of the Five Variants on "Dives & Lazarus," done by the organist himself, Stuart Foster.  It's included on his recent compact disc (http://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=1066255).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 07:10:16 AM
Quote from: knight on November 02, 2008, 10:34:42 PM
I may be proved wrong in this; but my understanding is that the orig Tallis setting alone uses the full version of his music: the third of Nine Tunes for Archbishop Parker's Psalter. 'Why Fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite.'

It is a long time since I heard VWs setting from the English Hymnal, but I seem to recall it was an adaptation; rather than Tallis' complete music simply being set to new words.

I should be interested to look at the source Tune, Mike; any suggestions?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 09:03:44 AM
Quote from: Lang Lang"We're having a quiet party now," he said after the unlikely pair launched into Ralph Vaughan Williams's Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra, accompanied by the Orchestre National de Lyon, conducted by John Axelrod.

Full article.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on July 06, 2009, 10:31:42 AM
Good to see someone like Lang taking an interest in such an unjustly neglected work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on July 06, 2009, 07:58:59 PM
Good news, I suppose, except I prefer the original version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2009, 03:21:37 AM
The Tallis, do you mean?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Opus106 on July 27, 2009, 06:24:49 AM
Cross-posted from here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11730.msg338074.html#msg338074).

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/albionrecordsalbcd010.jpg) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Albion%2BRecords/ALBCD010)
[Click on image for more]

QuoteChoir of Clare College, Cambridge & Dmitri Ensemble, Cambridge, Sir David Willcocks

Both the Folk Songs of the Four Seasons and this arrangement of In Windsor Forest are world premiere recordings. The Folk Songs of the Four Seasons is a substantial work by Vaughan Williams, over 40 minutes long, for women's chorus and orchestra. It is the most significant of his works never to have been recorded in any format.

The Folk Songs of the Four Seasons was commissioned by the Women's Institute and first performed in 1950. The work has a Prologue and four sections: Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter.

The coupling is the rare arrangement for women's voices, by Guthrie Foote and Vaughan Williams, of the Cantata In Windsor Forest based on choruses from the opera Sir John in Love.

This new Albion recording is issued to mark the 90th birthday of Sir David Willcocks on 30 December, 2009. Sir David is world famous for his recordings for EMI and for his work at King's College, Cambridge and the Bach Choir. For Sir David to record another major Vaughan Williams disc at the age of almost 90 is remarkable in itself and will ensure national and international interest in this recording.


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 29, 2009, 03:45:23 AM
I thought that I knew most of Vaughan Williams's music quite well but I recently discovered how good his 'Story of a Flemish Farm Suite' is. This is film music and is on Vol 3 of the Chandos series of VW's film music and also on an excellent earlier release on Marco Polo (surely a candidate for a Naxos reissue). VW himself said that to call a piece of music a 'Suite' was to damn it to extinction but, as Michael Kennedy says in the booklet notes in the Chandos release, this is an unfairly neglected score.  It contains some really good music - the 'Dead Man's Kit' episode, for one, contains some music highly reminiscent of the contemporaneous music for the epic 6th Symphony - as well as a beautiful lyrical episode - well worth looking out for.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: canninator on August 05, 2009, 06:56:14 AM
Okay, so I'll post this here rather than the recordings I am considering thread.

To preface, I know RVW pretty well, I grew up with a lot of it. This means I don't have many recordings in the same way I don't buy a Beatles album.

The recent EMI box set got me thinking I might change this situation but then I thought do I need the box?

The box: Pros, complete, good value for money, Cons: ?recording quality/mastering (I don't know, what's it like), poor packaging/notes.

I'm not a big opera fan so do I need the box, I might listen to Hugh the Drover once for the hell of it? Should I go for a symphony cycle (but which one...Handley, Previn, Boult Stereo or Mono) plus choral and vocal works (the Corydon Singers collections on Hyperion look tempting), and pick up anything else I want on Naxos (songs) or EMI/elsewhere (other orchestral/chamber works)?

So my question. Is the box just to good to look over or would I be better off cherry picking elsewhere if I don't want the operas? I'm only going to want to buy this stuff once, I don't care for having multiple recordings, I just want what I have to be dependable .

Have at it you beautiful people.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 05, 2009, 08:09:32 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on August 05, 2009, 06:56:14 AM
Okay, so I'll post this here rather than the recordings I am considering thread.

To preface, I know RVW pretty well, I grew up with a lot of it. This means I don't have many recordings in the same way I don't buy a Beatles album.

The recent EMI box set got me thinking I might change this situation but then I thought do I need the box?

The box: Pros, complete, good value for money, Cons: ?recording quality/mastering (I don't know, what's it like), poor packaging/notes.

I'm not a big opera fan so do I need the box, I might listen to Hugh the Drover once for the hell of it? Should I go for a symphony cycle (but which one...Handley, Previn, Boult Stereo or Mono) plus choral and vocal works (the Corydon Singers collections on Hyperion look tempting), and pick up anything else I want on Naxos (songs) or EMI/elsewhere (other orchestral/chamber works)?

So my question. Is the box just to good to look over or would I be better off cherry picking elsewhere if I don't want the operas? I'm only going to want to buy this stuff once, I don't care for having multiple recordings, I just want what I have to be dependable .

Have at it you beautiful people.

I'd go for the box - the notes are perfunctory, but it has everything there at a bargain price. I am not an opera fan either and have never listened to Hugh the Drover, Sir John in Love or The Poisoned Kiss - but I have learnt to love The Pilgrim's Progress (and seeing Richard Hickox conduct it on my birthday last year was perhaps the greatest concert going experience of my life). 'Riders to the Sea' is also a moving and powerful work.  In the box you get Vernon Handley's very sound performances of the symphonies and a great performance of Job + you may discover great works that you would otherwise not know (maybe you know them anyway) like Epithalamion and Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm. Other highlights are Sancta Civitas and Dona Nobis Pacem.  I doubt that you would regret the purchase and you can always read background info online or in a good biography.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: canninator on August 06, 2009, 01:50:04 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 05, 2009, 08:09:32 AM
I'd go for the box - the notes are perfunctory, but it has everything there at a bargain price. I am not an opera fan either and have never listened to Hugh the Drover, Sir John in Love or The Poisoned Kiss - but I have learnt to love The Pilgrim's Progress (and seeing Richard Hickox conduct it on my birthday last year was perhaps the greatest concert going experience of my life). 'Riders to the Sea' is also a moving and powerful work.  In the box you get Vernon Handley's very sound performances of the symphonies and a great performance of Job + you may discover great works that you would otherwise not know (maybe you know them anyway) like Epithalamion and Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm. Other highlights are Sancta Civitas and Dona Nobis Pacem.  I doubt that you would regret the purchase and you can always read background info online or in a good biography.

Yours is certainly an opinion I would respect on this matter and seeing as you are the only person who harkened to my deep throated cry of despair I shall place the order now in your honor and on your visa  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 06, 2009, 04:25:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 05, 2009, 08:09:32 AM
I'd go for the box

Chances are, I will, too, at some point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 06, 2009, 08:12:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 06, 2009, 04:25:31 AM
Chances are, I will, too, at some point.

Where's your beard, Karl?  :o That is you, isn't it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 06, 2009, 08:56:02 AM
First shave in 15 years.  Worth it just for the double-takes here in the office  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2009, 02:11:54 PM
Quote from: Il Furioso on August 06, 2009, 01:50:04 AM
Yours is certainly an opinion I would respect on this matter and seeing as you are the only person who harkened to my deep throated cry of despair I shall place the order now in your honor and on your visa  ;D

Thank you! Let us know how you get on with the box - happy listening.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: tjguitar on August 06, 2009, 07:45:49 PM
I have the Handley box and these earlier Handley recordings:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JW6MK41JL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on August 06, 2009, 08:24:15 PM
Interesting! I didn't know about the earlier recordings, although their existence makes sense - that RLPO cycle couldn't have come out of the blue. How do they compare with the later recordings?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 06, 2009, 10:42:35 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 06, 2009, 08:56:02 AM
First shave in 15 years.  Worth it just for the double-takes here in the office  8)

;D

(Farewell 1960s, welcome 21st century...)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 07, 2009, 12:47:11 AM
Quote from: Lethe on August 06, 2009, 08:24:15 PM
Interesting! I didn't know about the earlier recordings, although their existence makes sense - that RLPO cycle couldn't have come out of the blue. How do they compare with the later recordings?

I wrote a review on the Amazon UK site which might help:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphony-Nos-Ralph/dp/B000BTDLRE/ref=cm_cr-mr-title


I've been listening to Stanley Bate's Viola Concerto which is IMHO a 'must-have' CD if you like Vaughan Williams's music.

Also a plug for Arthur Butterworth's 4th Symphony which has given me great pleasure too.













Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 07, 2009, 04:17:00 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on August 06, 2009, 10:42:35 PM
;D

(Farewell 1960s, welcome 21st century...)

Oh, chances are I'll grow the beard back in for the winter  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on September 04, 2009, 04:22:40 PM
Quote from: Lethe on August 06, 2009, 08:24:15 PM
Interesting! I didn't know about the earlier recordings, although their existence makes sense - that RLPO cycle couldn't have come out of the blue. How do they compare with the later recordings?

Ok, it's a month later, but i've not been around you know! In a nutshell, I much prefer the warmer earlier version of the 2nd (warmer not only because of the analogue recording but I imagine much assisted by it), but the 6th is less successful in the earlier attempt I feel. That London Symphony is my favourite recording of the work now that I think about it. If you haven't already, do go grab a copy.  :)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2009, 01:11:58 PM
Quote from: Benji on September 04, 2009, 04:22:40 PM
Ok, it's a month later, but i've not been around you know! In a nutshell, I much prefer the warmer earlier version of the 2nd (warmer not only because of the analogue recording but I imagine much assisted by it), but the 6th is less successful in the earlier attempt I feel. That London Symphony is my favourite recording of the work now that I think about it. If you haven't already, do go grab a copy.  :)



Totally agree with you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on September 06, 2009, 08:39:20 PM
      Question from a longtime VW fan - what do you all see in Flos Campi? My orchestra played it about 5-6 months ago, and we all came off with the impression that it was a bit of a misty odd duck. It made me think most of the 3rd symphony, but somehow it came off a bit shapeless (I feel obligated to report that our conductor is a huge fan of Beethoven and Mahler, and I feel like his mind is less apt to this kind of music).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 07, 2009, 12:43:55 AM
It's thoroughly atypical to the rest of his music - it has the perfumed qualities of Bantock, but filtered through the style of Holst (who was himself a bit of a mystic). I'm not sure its reasons for coming about - I'm sure others could comment - but for what it is, I find it magical. The only work in RVW's output which I find comes close is the Serenade to Music - with its meandering archings, but Flos Campi adds to this a rather more theatrical quality which might seem at odds with such subtle music. It's not as perfectly composed as most of his other work, lacking an "inevitability" built into the structure, but once familiar I found it satisfying throughout, but admittedly not fully able to explain why. It's certainly a strange bird.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 07, 2009, 03:27:34 AM
Flos Campi has a rarefied atmosphere - I prefer it to the Serenade for Music, which is one of my least favourite works of Vaughan Williams (together with the Wasps Overture - which I have heard too many times).  Of lesser known works, the Fantasia on the Old 104th is one of my favourites - a great score - do look it out if you like VW but don't know it. it is an orchestral/choral work with a large piano part.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 07, 2009, 04:45:28 AM
What? You don't like the Serenade? Surely it's like Barber's adagio in that however many times it gets played, its still as fresh and beautiful... I guess not for everybody!

The Wasps is awful though!

Has anyone heard the new Clare Choir/Willcocks CD of Vaughan Williams world premieres? (large late pieces whose names escape me at the moment). I've just ordered it in order to review it, but it hasn't recieved any other reviews at all as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 07, 2009, 03:48:04 PM
Quote from: Guido on September 07, 2009, 04:45:28 AM
What? You don't like the Serenade? Surely it's like Barber's adagio in that however many times it gets played, its still as fresh and beautiful... I guess not for everybody!

The Wasps is awful though!

Has anyone heard the new Clare Choir/Willcocks CD of Vaughan Williams world premieres? (large late pieces whose names escape me at the moment). I've just ordered it in order to review it, but it hasn't recieved any other reviews at all as far as I can see.

Don't know why I don't like the Serenade  ??? Perhaps a bit 'precious' for my taste - I prefer the orchestral version.  I have the new CD - very disappointed - sounds like a collection of trad folk songs - not my cup of tea (although I do drink a lot of cups of tea  ;D)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 07, 2009, 05:32:20 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 07, 2009, 03:48:04 PM
Don't know why I don't like the Serenade  ??? Perhaps a bit 'precious' for my taste - I prefer the orchestral version.  I have the new CD - very disappointed - sounds like a collection of trad folk songs - not my cup of tea (although I do drink a lot of cups of tea  ;D)

I think I also prefer the orchestral version actually... Shame about the CD - wish I hadn't ordered it now! Ah well, maybe there'll be something to redeem it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 08, 2009, 07:44:53 AM
Quote from: Guido on September 07, 2009, 05:32:20 PM
I think I also prefer the orchestral version actually... Shame about the CD - wish I hadn't ordered it now! Ah well, maybe there'll be something to redeem it.

You might like it more than I did - there is nice stuff on the CD and I only heard it once.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 08, 2009, 09:13:46 PM


     I like the Boult recording with 16 soloists, and I enjoyed seeing it performed by a local group. I still haven't listened to the orchestral version I picked up recently (Hickox/Northern Sinfonia).
     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2009, 03:45:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 07, 2009, 03:48:04 PM
Don't know why I don't like the Serenade  ??? Perhaps a bit 'precious' for my taste - I prefer the orchestral version.  I have the new CD - very disappointed - sounds like a collection of trad folk songs - not my cup of tea (although I do drink a lot of cups of tea  ;D)

Quote from: Guido on September 07, 2009, 05:32:20 PM
I think I also prefer the orchestral version actually... Shame about the CD - wish I hadn't ordered it now! Ah well, maybe there'll be something to redeem it.

Since I love folk songs I'll probably really enjoy it. Thanks, guys, for pointing out the existence of this CD.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 09, 2009, 01:44:25 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2009, 03:45:05 AM
Since I love folk songs I'll probably really enjoy it. Thanks, guys, for pointing out the existence of this CD.

Sarge

Here it is Sarge:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 10, 2009, 06:28:41 AM
I've listened to this CD 3 times now, and like it more each time I listened. I thought these were two rather mediocre works, but actually they reveal new subtleties every time I've heard them, simple though they are. Affecting folk song settings, and the Wedding Song from Sir John in Love, is really very beautiful and moving.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 11, 2009, 07:58:22 AM
Quote from: Guido on September 10, 2009, 06:28:41 AM
I've listened to this CD 3 times now, and like it more each time I listened. I thought these were two rather mediocred works, but actually they reveal new subtleties every time I've heard them, simple though they are. Affecting folk song settings, and the Wedding Song from Sir John in Love, is really very beautiful and moving.

OK, I must definitely listen again!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 11, 2009, 08:06:28 AM
Only Britten can match him in folk song setting IMHO. English folk song that is.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 26, 2009, 06:49:42 AM
Household music - written for amateur during the second world war who might have fleed into their air raid shelter with their instruments - beautifully idealistic perhaps but the music is just so gorgeous and sincere - I keep returning to it. It's written for any combination of instruments, but both recordings that have appeared have been played by strings - one by a quartet and one by a string orchestra with a horn. It's a shame no one's tried to record it with a rag-bag ensemble as yet but it's definitely worth seeking out. (It's on Spotify)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2009, 02:08:38 PM
Happy 137th Birthday RVW  :)

Born 12th October 1872

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 18, 2009, 07:06:54 AM
I'm falling in love with Vaughan Williams all over again. I have been intentionally ignoring a lot of pieces that I suspected I would love, saving them for times I might need them. Last week, I don't know if it is the onset of SAD perhaps, but I really needed a pick up so I allowed myself to listen to the Piano Concerto and yes I love it, and also to the Songs of Travel and yes I love them. I've only listened once though and I think i'll let them be for a while longer! Is that strange behavior? Perhaps.

I've also been listening to the orchestrated On Wenlock Edge a great deal. I have the Rattle/Tear and Haitink/Bostridge combinations, and much prefer the latter. I just find Robert Tear, and Rattle's accompaniment too mannered - I feel very aware that i'm listening to a song, where with Bostridge and Haitink I am entirely immersed in the imagery. One thing I will give Rattle though - he really brings out the Ravelian influence in the tone colouring, but as I say, I don't want to be aware of such things, I just want to be whisked away.

Bredon Hill, with Ian Bostridge, is just so achingly beautiful. If you don't know these songs yet, please do get to know them. Or make a mental note save to them for a bad day.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 18, 2009, 08:33:21 AM
Quote from: Benji on October 18, 2009, 07:06:54 AM
I'm falling in love with Vaughan Williams all over again. I have been intentionally ignoring a lot of pieces that I suspected I would love, saving them for times I might need them. Last week, I don't know if it is the onset of SAD perhaps, but I really needed a pick up so I allowed myself to listen to the Piano Concerto and yes I love it, and also to the Songs of Travel and yes I love them. I've only listened once though and I think i'll let them be for a while longer! Is that strange behavior? Perhaps.

I've also been listening to the orchestrated On Wenlock Edge a great deal. I have the Rattle/Tear and Haitink/Bostridge combinations, and much prefer the latter. I just find Robert Tear, and Rattle's accompaniment too mannered - I feel very aware that i'm listening to a song, where with Bostridge and Haitink I am entirely immersed in the imagery. One thing I will give Rattle though - he really brings out the Ravelian influence in the tone colouring, but as I say, I don't want to be aware of such things, I just want to be whisked away.

Bredon Hill, with Ian Bostridge, is just so achingly beautiful. If you don't know these songs yet, please do get to know them. Or make a mental note save to them for a bad day.  ;)

I do really like the orchestral 'Songs of travel' with Rattle - the EMI CD contains a fine song cycle by Butterworth too 'Coming up from Richmond' is a a lovely song. Which version of the Piano Concerto did you listen to?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 18, 2009, 08:49:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 18, 2009, 08:33:21 AM
I do really like the orchestral 'Songs of travel' with Rattle - the EMI CD contains a fine song cycle by Butterworth too 'Coming up from Richmond' is a a lovely song. Which version of the Piano Concerto did you listen to?

The recording on Lyrita with Vernon Handley / Howard Shelley. That would be the one piano version. I'm sure my Boult EMI box set has a version which is perhaps the two piano one? Should I dig that out?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on October 18, 2009, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: Benji on October 18, 2009, 07:06:54 AMI've also been listening to the orchestrated On Wenlock Edge a great deal. I have the Rattle/Tear and Haitink/Bostridge combinations, and much prefer the latter. I just find Robert Tear, and Rattle's accompaniment too mannered - I feel very aware that i'm listening to a song, where with Bostridge and Haitink I am entirely immersed in the imagery. One thing I will give Rattle though - he really brings out the Ravelian influence in the tone colouring, but as I say, I don't want to be aware of such things, I just want to be whisked away.

Bredon Hill, with Ian Bostridge, is just so achingly beautiful. If you don't know these songs yet, please do get to know them. Or make a mental note save to them for a bad day.  ;)

      I did not know that there was an orchestrated version! I did play the piano quintet version with a talented tenor in Ann Arbor, and it was fantastic - this is some of Vaughan-Williams' most evocative music (especially the bells in Bredon Hill), right up there with the London Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2009, 02:54:10 AM
Quote from: Benji on October 18, 2009, 08:49:50 AM
The recording on Lyrita with Vernon Handley / Howard Shelley. That would be the one piano version. I'm sure my Boult EMI box set has a version which is perhaps the two piano one? Should I dig that out?

Yes, yes - the Boult/Vronsky/Babin EMI two piano version is my favourite version of all. The single EMI release with Boult's fourth and last recording of 'Job' was a great CD.

PS A two piano version of Symphony No 6 will be issued on Albion records soon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 19, 2009, 09:47:27 AM
Quote from: Dana on October 18, 2009, 03:53:37 PM
     I did not know that there was an orchestrated version! I did play the piano quintet version with a talented tenor in Ann Arbor, and it was fantastic - this is some of Vaughan-Williams' most evocative music (especially the bells in Bredon Hill), right up there with the London Symphony.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XKwaLncfL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Help yourself, help the economy. Win win.  ;)

(This disc is just terrific: my favourite recording of the sixth symphony, the gentle grandeur of In the Fen Country and beautifully rounded off with some first class orchestral songs)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2009, 11:12:59 PM
Quote from: Benji on October 19, 2009, 09:47:27 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XKwaLncfL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Help yourself, help the economy. Win win.  ;)

(This disc is just terrific: my favourite recording of the sixth symphony, the gentle grandeur of In the Fen Country and beautifully rounded off with some first class orchestral songs)

Yes, that is a great CD of all the works - nice cover art too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 20, 2009, 01:53:10 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 19, 2009, 11:12:59 PM
Yes, that is a great CD of all the works - nice cover art too.

(* pounds the table *)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2009, 04:09:48 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 20, 2009, 01:53:10 AM
(* pounds the table *)

What are you on Karl?  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 20, 2009, 04:35:51 AM
I've kicked the drugs, and I'm high on life . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2009, 08:00:55 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 20, 2009, 04:35:51 AM
I've kicked the drugs, and I'm high on life . . . .

:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 21, 2009, 07:35:36 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 20, 2009, 04:35:51 AM
I've kicked the drugs, and I'm high on life . . . .

So what, you're sniffing dogs? It's a slippery slope you know; before you know it you'll be trying to score an elephant and then you'll be lying in a ditch covered in your own mice.

*Ahem*

So, has anyone picked up either of these discs and, if so, what are your thoughts?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61jTepjbFnL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qd4Dl-lSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 21, 2009, 07:38:33 AM
Quote from: Benji on October 21, 2009, 07:35:36 AM
So what, you're sniffing dogs?

Heck no, I'm gonna take off my shoes, climb a tree and learn to play the basset clarinet.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 22, 2009, 04:28:27 AM
Quote from: Benji on October 21, 2009, 07:35:36 AM
So what, you're sniffing dogs? It's a slippery slope you know; before you know it you'll be trying to score an elephant and then you'll be lying in a ditch covered in your own mice.

*Ahem*

So, has anyone picked up either of these discs and, if so, what are your thoughts?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61jTepjbFnL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qd4Dl-lSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


I know all these recordings. The top disc is excellent - not just for the VW but also for a moving performance of Warlock's masterpiece 'The Curlew'. The Boult Sea Symphony is fine on the second CD, but not Hickox's disappointing performance of 'Hodie'. The Willcocks or Naxos versions are much better.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 22, 2009, 04:55:28 AM
Thanks, Jeffrey. I'll definitely get that top disc then.

Is that the same Boult recording from that that is in the blue EMI box set? (and what is that pairing all about? Aside from being big and choral, The Sea Symphony and Hodie are surely worlds apart?!) I'm happy with the Wilcock version of Hodie at any rate.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 22, 2009, 05:31:11 AM
Quote from: Benji on October 22, 2009, 04:55:28 AM
Thanks, Jeffrey. I'll definitely get that top disc then.

Is that the same Boult recording from that that is in the blue EMI box set? (and what is that pairing all about? Aside from being big and choral, The Sea Symphony and Hodie are surely worlds apart?!) I'm happy with the Wilcock version of Hodie at any rate.



Hi Benji,

The EMI Classical Division has been subject to stringent cuts - so they are to some extent relying (at least as far as the 'British Composers' series is concerned, with reissuing previously released material in a new format (ie two CD sets). Some of the couplings are logical (ie the CDs with The Curlew etc make a nice programme, also Berglund's VW Symphony 4 and 6 with Alexander Gibson's 5th) but the Boult Sea Symphony (yes, from the EMI boxed sets) does not sit well with Hickox's drab 'Hodie'. I guess that the latter has only been issued on full price CD before and, as you say, they are both big choral works but from the opposite end of VW's career. However, in the other set, I do not know a better tenor than Ian Partridge in those glorious performances - so don't hesitate there!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 26, 2009, 06:45:48 AM
Dutton are releasing Vaughan Williams's 'Heroic Elegy and Triumphal Epilogue' this month. Even more exciting is their release of Stanley Bate's Third Symphony (Bate was a student of Vaughan Williams). I have wanted to hear this for many years. I loved his epic Viola Concero and Symphony No 3 is apparently his greatest work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 27, 2009, 01:34:46 AM
A strong recommendation for this, which arrived this morning. It is a fine and very powerful performance  of Vaughan Williams's underrated, craggily poetic, Piano Concerto - also with the English Folk Song Suite (Orch. Jacob), The Running Set and the Wasps Suite. If you don't know this work it's a great introduction to it (and to the works of VW generally). The tempo is faster in some places than other recordings but there is a greater sense of urgency - it emerges as a darker, more threatening work with clear pre-echoes of Symphony No 4 (a few years in the future). The lyrical moments are still eloquently conveyed. I gather that Naxos are recording new versions of those great choral works, Dona Nobis Pacem and Sancta Civitas.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 27, 2009, 08:53:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 27, 2009, 01:34:46 AM
A strong recommendation for this, which arrived this morning. It is a fine and very powerful performance  of Vaughan Williams's underrated, craggily poetic, Piano Concerto - also with the English Folk Song Suite (Orch. Jacob), The Running Set and the Wasps Suite. If you don't know this work it's a great introduction to it (and to the works of VW generally). The tempo is faster in some places than other recordings but there is a greater sense of urgency - it emerges as a darker, more threatening work with clear pre-echoes of Symphony No 4 (a few years in the future). The lyrical moments are still eloquently conveyed. I gather that Naxos are recording new versions of those great choral works, Dona Nobis Pacem and Sancta Civitas.

How many hands this time?  ;)

I'll most definitely be picking this up. I may even pop down tonight to HMV to grab a copy. Beautiful cover too - nice and brooding (even if it is still, ultimately, pastoral - an image I'm keen to actively dissociate from VW). Still, it's great that Naxos are showing VW so much interest - fans of British music continue to owe them a huge debt of gratitude I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 27, 2009, 09:38:30 AM
Yes, that one is certainly a temptation.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 27, 2009, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: Benji on October 27, 2009, 08:53:07 AM
How many hands this time?  ;)

I'll most definitely be picking this up. I may even pop down tonight to HMV to grab a copy. Beautiful cover too - nice and brooding (even if it is still, ultimately, pastoral - an image I'm keen to actively dissociate from VW). Still, it's great that Naxos are showing VW so much interest - fans of British music continue to owe them a huge debt of gratitude I think.

Let us know what you think if you buy it.  Yes, great cover art and nicely presented in slip-case - v good disc. Most VW CDs focus on either the more pastoral works (Lark Ascending, Tallis etc) or on the more turbulent scores (symphs 4 and 6 etc). The great think about this CD is that it includes both demonstrating different aspects of VW's creative genius.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on October 28, 2009, 01:16:58 PM
The VW piano concerto is apparently available in a revised version for two pianos.  Both versions are only available in a few recordings.  So what's the difference between the two versions?  What is wrong with this work that made it such a failure in two different versions?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on October 28, 2009, 01:34:04 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 28, 2009, 01:16:58 PM
What is wrong with this work that made it such a failure in two different versions?

Yes. What's wrong with a dismal failure, isn't it? (Sounds like a sort of self-fulfilling pleonasm, to me  ::) )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on October 28, 2009, 01:57:17 PM
Quote from: Christo on October 28, 2009, 01:34:04 PM
Yes. What's wrong with a dismal failure, isn't it? (Sounds like a sort of self-fulfilling pleonasm, to me  ::) )

A popular failure, in any case?  You have nothing to say in favor of it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 29, 2009, 12:42:03 AM
I think that the Piano Concerto is one of Vaughan Williams's most interesting scores - a bit of a transitional work (rather like Job) between early and late VW; cerainly it is more turbulent than much of the earlier music. The problem for some was that the piano is treated a bit like a percussion instrument - for me this is part of the work's craggy appeal. The first performer was Harriet Cohen (Bax's mistress) whose fingers were apparently too small for the work! In the end all this led to the two piano version but paradoxically, Harriet Cohen seemed to resent anyone else playing the work, which did not help it gain more performances either. The new Naxos CD does it full justice and reveals it as a great work (IMHO).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Luke on October 29, 2009, 02:48:36 AM
Don't get all logical - I thought for a second this thread was going to have another enjoyable round of tilting at VW-themed wind machines windmills.....though I wouldn't be taking part in this round, not this time!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 29, 2009, 03:14:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 29, 2009, 12:42:03 AM
I think that the Piano Concerto is one of Vaughan Williams's most interesting scores - a bit of a transitional work (rather like Job) between early and late VW; cerainly it is more turbulent than much of the earlier music. The problem for some was that the piano is treated a bit like a percussion instrument - for me this is part of the work's craggy appeal.

Yes! And that would explain why Bartók was also a fan of the work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 03:49:44 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 27, 2009, 01:34:46 AM
A strong recommendation for this, which arrived this morning.

I own five versions: Handley/Shelley, Handley/Lane, Thomson/Shelley, Menhuin/Markam & Broadway (sounds like an intersection, not a piano duo  ;D ) and Boult/Vronsky & Babin. Is there any reason I should consider adding this Naxos recording...I mean other than the gorgeous cover  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 29, 2009, 03:58:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 29, 2009, 12:42:03 AM
The problem for some was that the piano is treated a bit like a percussion instrument - for me this is part of the work's craggy appeal.

In that case I should check it out. My problem is when the piano is NOT treated as a percussion instrument (which is why I've never much liked Romantic piano music).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 29, 2009, 05:03:33 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 28, 2009, 01:16:58 PM
The VW piano concerto is apparently available in a revised version for two pianos.  Both versions are only available in a few recordings.

So much of Vaughan Williams's work is (a) regularly in the repertory, and (b) amply recorded — and his catalogue is substantial enough — that I am not sure we can consider the fact that the piano concerto has suffered relative neglect constitutes a genuine failure on the part of the piece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 29, 2009, 05:42:28 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 29, 2009, 05:03:33 AM
So much of Vaughan Williams's work is (a) regularly in the repertory, and (b) amply recorded — and his catalogue is substantial enough — that I am not sure we can consider the fact that the piano concerto has suffered relative neglect constitutes a genuine failure on the part of the piece.

Dr Karl! I'm sure what you really mean is that there aren't enough Vaughan Williams recordings, so we really, really need more. The catalogue is just not substantial enough I say! *nudge, nudge, wink, wink*

In all seriousness though, I would really love to hear a new cycle from a non-British orchestra/conductor. Is anyone aware of any non-Brit conductor who includes the symphonies in his repertoire?

And who do we think could do it justice? Sinfonia Lahti - Vanska? San Francisco - MTT? What would be your dream combination?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 29, 2009, 05:46:37 AM
Quote from: Benji on October 29, 2009, 05:42:28 AM
Dr Karl! I'm sure what you really mean is that there aren't enough Vaughan Williams recordings, so we really, really need more. The catalogue is just not substantial enough I say! *nudge, nudge, wink, wink*

Well, that's one of the things I really meant.  It's in an appendix to the latest  Dan Brown novel . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 29, 2009, 05:55:12 AM
Quote from: Benji on October 29, 2009, 05:42:28 AM
Is anyone aware of any non-Brit conductor who includes the symphonies in his repertoire?

Well hey, Haitink and Slatkin both recorded complete cycles, so it looks like your wish has already come true  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 29, 2009, 06:06:48 AM
Quote from: Contents Under Pressure on October 29, 2009, 05:55:12 AM
Well hey, Haitink and Slatkin both recorded complete cycles, so it looks like your wish has already come true  0:)

I adore Haitink's cycle (well, most of it)! Slatkin... not what i've heard. I suppose Previn isn't British either, even though I always think of him that way (thanks to Morcombe and Wise).

But those cycles were all with British orchestras (except that Icelandic fellow whose name I forget...P..?).

Who do we want a new cycle from? Something completely fresh and without any British interference that doesn't come from directly from the music?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 06:14:22 AM
Let's see, you already have Handley, Thomson, Boult (x2), Haitink, Slatkin, Haitink, Previn. Between these and the orchestras they recorded with you have British and non-British orchestras covered to the bone. For such mediocre music you are flooded with choices. You really need another cycle? And who is going to record it other than a British orchestra and/or conductor. Non-british orchestras wouldn't touch this music with the proverbial 10 foot pole.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 29, 2009, 06:23:21 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 06:14:22 AM
. . . For such mediocre music you are flooded with choices.

Oh, puh-leeeze.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 29, 2009, 06:25:51 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 06:14:22 AM
Let's see, you already have Handley, Thomson, Boult (x2), Haitink, Slatkin, Haitink, Previn. Between these and the orchestras they recorded with you have British and non-British orchestras covered to the bone. For such mediocre music you are flooded with choices. You really need another cycle? And who is going to record it other than a British orchestra and/or conductor. Non-british orchestras wouldn't touch this music with the proverbial 10 foot pole.

Though I thank you for your valuable contribution to our thread, I'm respectfully filing your opinion under B, then S.  ;)

Anyone else?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on October 29, 2009, 07:18:53 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 06:14:22 AMMy opinions on Vaughan-Williams are misinformed, and I don't know what good music is. Also, I am a bad person.

:o A philistine??!!

STONE HIM!!!!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 07:27:11 AM
If you are going to make up some dumb-ass quote at least get the guy's name right. It's Vaughan Williams, not Vaughan-Williams.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on October 29, 2009, 07:28:29 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 07:27:11 AM
If you are going to make up some dumb-ass quote at least get the guy's name right. It's Vaughan Williams, not Vaughan-Williams.

I think that was part of the joke.  (I'm guessing) ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 07:29:18 AM
Quote from: Brahmsian on October 29, 2009, 07:28:29 AM
I think that was part of the joke. 
Somehow I seriously doubt that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 29, 2009, 07:41:53 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 07:29:18 AM
Somehow I seriously doubt that.


Right; it's simply a matter of not caring about the music, nor about the composer, and parading your disinterest as some sort of virtue.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 07:47:20 AM
I have both the Thomson and Previn cycle and some of the Slatkin and Boult. I have listened to each at least 3-5 times over the past 10 years and I don't think it is great music. Probably a bit better than Elgar but not as good was Walton. The 4th and 9th are very good. The 6th has its moments, but others range from okay (3 and 5) to dreadful (1 and 7).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on October 29, 2009, 07:53:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 03:49:44 AM
I own five versions: Handley/Shelley, Handley/Lane, Thomson/Shelley, Menhuin/Markam & Broadway (sounds like an intersection, not a piano duo  ;D ) and Boult/Vronsky & Babin. Is there any reason I should consider adding this Naxos recording...I mean other than the gorgeous cover  ;)

Sarge

Any comment on the relative merits of those recordings? 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 08:44:21 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 29, 2009, 07:53:42 AM
Any comment on the relative merits of those recordings? 

Not at the moment--I haven't done a comparative listen. In fact, it's been a long time since I listened to most of the recordings (and I've never heard the Boult...one of the drawbacks of owning the huge EMI box: things tend to get lost, be forgotten). I've begun to recitify that. Listened to the Menuhin earlier today.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 29, 2009, 08:45:18 AM
Ah, the divine Hepzibah . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 08:49:14 AM
Quote from: Contents Under Pressure on October 29, 2009, 05:55:12 AM
Well hey, Haitink and Slatkin both recorded complete cycles, so it looks like your wish has already come true  0:)

Previn's been mentioned. And Kees Bakels recorded a cycle, too, with the Bournemouth SO. He's Dutch.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 29, 2009, 08:52:11 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 08:49:14 AM
Previn's been mentioned. And Kees Bakels recorded a cycle, too, with the Bournemouth SO. He's Dutch.

Sarge

Bakels! That's who I was thinking of. I was confusing him with the Icelandic guy who actually recorded Sibelius for Naxos, not RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 08:55:10 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 07:47:20 AM
I have both the Thomson and Previn cycle and some of the Slatkin and Boult. I have listened to each at least 3-5 times over the past 10 years and I don't think it is great music. Probably a bit better than Elgar but not as good was Walton. The 4th and 9th are very good. The 6th has its moments, but others range from okay (3 and 5) to dreadful (1 and 7).

Since 3, 5 and 6 are generally considered the composers best, I thnk your idea about what is good and bad about VW is just a wee bit skewed towards personal taste, PW  ;)  Having said that, my own favorites are 4 and 9, along with that superb little oddball Eighth.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 08:59:15 AM
Quote from: Benji on October 29, 2009, 08:52:11 AM
Bakels! That's who I was thinking of. I was confusing him with the Icelandic guy who actually recorded Sibelius for Naxos, not RVW.

I'm glad we got that straigthened out. I was racking my brains trying to think of an Icelander who conducts VW   ;D ...of course I couldn't think of anyone but at my age I couldn't be sure I wasn't having a senior moment  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 29, 2009, 09:03:20 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 08:59:15 AM
I'm glad we got that straigthened out. I was racking my brains trying to think of an Icelander who conducts VW   ;D ...of course I couldn't think of anyone but at my age I couldn't be sure I wasn't having a senior moment  :D

Sarge

Apologies for the mental workout Sarge!

P.s. It's great to see someone choosing the 9th as a favourite. It's a hard nut to crack. I'm not sure I have yet, but damn it I love to try.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 09:05:07 AM
The "Icelandic" guy who recorded a pretty good Sibelius cycle for Naxos is Petri Sakari. But Petri Sakari is not Icelandic, he is Finnish, born in Helsinki. The orchestra with which he recorded the Sibelius cycle is the Iceland SO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 29, 2009, 09:08:22 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 09:05:07 AM
The "Icelandic" guy who recorded a pretty good Sibelius cycle for Naxos is Petri Sakari. But Petri Sakari is not Icelandic, he is Finnish, born in Helsinki. The orchestra with which he recorded the Sibelius cycle is the Iceland SO.

I stand corrected!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 09:33:30 AM
Quote from: Benji on October 29, 2009, 09:03:20 AM

P.s. It's great to see someone choosing the 9th as a favourite.

It's the saxophones...love those saxophones  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on October 29, 2009, 09:40:15 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 09:33:30 AM
It's the saxophones...love those saxophones  ;D

Sarge

:o  The horror...........the horror.

;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on October 29, 2009, 09:40:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 09:33:30 AM
It's the saxophones...love those saxophones  ;D

Sarge

Amen to that, but what of the flugelhorn?!  
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on October 29, 2009, 09:56:01 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 07:27:11 AMIf you are going to make up some dumb-ass quote at least get the guy's name right. It's Vaughan Williams, not Vaughan-Williams.

I've seen it both ways in respectable publications - if you're going to claim to know better, I'm gonna need a citation.

Moreover, it was a joke. Lighten up. Everyone is entitled to their own musical opinions :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MN Dave on October 29, 2009, 09:57:28 AM
I think it's Yaughan Williams.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on October 29, 2009, 10:08:43 AM
Jan-Villyams?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: Dana on October 29, 2009, 09:56:01 AM
I've seen it both ways in respectable publications - if you're going to claim to know better, I'm gonna need a citation.

I have not seen it spelled both ways, respectable or not respectable. Spelling errors on RMCR is not a "respectable" publication. Perhaps you can give a citation as to which respectable publication you have seen that spells it "Vaughan-Williams" ? This has nothing to do with "lightening" up or not.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on October 29, 2009, 10:13:38 AM
Grammar grumble:

Should it be "Vaughan Williams' Veranda"?  No big deal, just checking.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on October 29, 2009, 10:18:07 AM
Gunther Schuller uses the hyphen in his book The Compleat Conductor.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: Brahmsian on October 29, 2009, 10:13:38 AM
Grammar grumble:

Should it be "Vaughan Williams' Veranda"?  No big deal, just checking.
THAT I have seen spelled both ways. But I do not know enough grammar to be able to tell you whether "Williams's" is acceptable or not. Perhaps someone like Don or Sforzando will know.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MN Dave on October 29, 2009, 10:25:31 AM
Both are acceptable.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on October 29, 2009, 10:28:40 AM
Quote from: Dana on October 29, 2009, 10:18:07 AM
Gunther Schuller uses the hyphen in his book The Compleat Conductor.

Ouch!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 10:33:22 AM
Quote from: Dana on October 29, 2009, 10:18:07 AM
Gunther Schuller uses the hyphen in his book The Compleat Conductor.
Yes he does, but he is wrong. Check out this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-barrelled_name

especially read this passage:

Many double-barrelled names are written without a hyphen. (This can cause confusion as to whether the surname is double-barrelled or not.) Notable persons with unhyphenated double-barrelled names include David Lloyd George, the composer Ralph Vaughan Williams, Helena Bonham Carter, comedian Sacha Baron Cohen, and Sylvia Llewelyn Davies.


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on October 29, 2009, 10:41:26 AM
      I could quibble with the use of wikipedia as a "respectable" academic resource... But I guess I won't. You, sir, have proven me to be a dumbass, and I apologize :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 10:47:00 AM
Quote from: Dana on October 29, 2009, 10:41:26 AM
     I could quibble with the use of wikipedia as a "respectable" academic resource... But I guess I won't. You, sir, have proven me to be a dumbass, and I apologize :)
I haven't proven anything...just trying to waste some time before I can get out of here. I actually read that book when I was in college. When I first saw the book I thought the word "compleat" was misspelled.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on October 29, 2009, 10:49:54 AM
I'm still not sure whether you're also supposed to mispronounce it too :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 10:51:28 AM
Quote from: Dana on October 29, 2009, 10:49:54 AM
I'm still not sure whether you're also supposed to mispronounce it too :P
Mispronounce what? "Compleat" ? I have actually not seen that word being used at all these days.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on October 29, 2009, 10:53:17 AM
Compleyaat? Compleee-at? Complayet?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 10:58:40 AM
Hmmm, I just see this:

adj.
Of or characterized by a highly developed or wide-ranging skill or proficiency: "The compleat speechwriter ... comes to anonymity from Harvard Law" (Israel Shenker).
Being an outstanding example of a kind; quintessential: "Here was the compleat modern misfit: the very air appeared to poison him; his every step looked treacherous and hard won" (Stephen Schiff).
[Variant of COMPLETE.]
[/b]

I think "compleat" as a word is dead, so we can probably stop worrying about how to pronounce it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Franco on October 29, 2009, 11:18:03 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 10:19:21 AM
THAT I have seen spelled both ways. But I do not know enough grammar to be able to tell you whether "Williams's" is acceptable or not. Perhaps someone like Don or Sforzando will know.

We had a little discussion about this over at Cato's Grammar Grumble, and while I pointed out that Strunk & White rule that 's is always used, no exceptions except for foreign proper names usually from mythological references, e.g Hermes, Cato and someone else (possibly ') protested and didn't care what Strunk had to say - they feel it just looks odd and avoid it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on October 29, 2009, 11:36:25 AM
How does one get a two part non-hyphenated name like Vaughan Williams?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2009, 12:08:36 PM
Apparently it is explained here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-barrelled_name
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on October 29, 2009, 02:01:35 PM
Odd.  Juxtaposing the Mothers and Fathers surname is common (it's the rule in many Spanish Speaking Counties) but if you do that consistently names double in length every generation, leading to exponential growth of name length.  There needs to be a rule for paring down the names.  Vaughan Williams' father's name was Arthur Vaughan Williams.  How do we know that the elder was not just an eccentric who decided to give his son the same middle name he had?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 29, 2009, 02:44:42 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2009, 03:49:44 AM
I own five versions: Handley/Shelley, Handley/Lane, Thomson/Shelley, Menhuin/Markam & Broadway (sounds like an intersection, not a piano duo  ;D ) and Boult/Vronsky & Babin. Is there any reason I should consider adding this Naxos recording...I mean other than the gorgeous cover  ;)

Sarge

Well, I have all those versions too, plus one with Yarbrough and Cowan with Paul Freeman conducting (Centaur Label), but I do not regret getting this new one - especially at superbudget price. But then again I do suffer from some kind of obsessive-compulsive CD collecting disorder (OCCDCD) - a well known psychiatric syndrome - but the performance is very good, as is the programme (apart from 'The Wasps', which I find a bit of a bore). I would go for it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 29, 2009, 03:00:35 PM
Quote from: Benji on October 29, 2009, 09:03:20 AM
Apologies for the mental workout Sarge!

P.s. It's great to see someone choosing the 9th as a favourite. It's a hard nut to crack. I'm not sure I have yet, but damn it I love to try.

Nice to everything kicking-off here  ::)

Actually the Ninth is perhaps my favourite too (although I think that No 6, which combines the violence of No 4 and the spirituality of No 5, in a uniquely disturbing/compassionate synthesis is the greatest - I hope that you all appreciate my fascinating analysis  0:)) I also love the original 1913 version of A London Symphony and can't understand why the composer later excised the section just beore the end - one of the best, most moving things he wrote. I had the privilege of briefly discussing this with the late Richard Hickox after a great concert of the 1913 version in London.  Going back to No 9 it has great craggy appeal (I love craggy symphonies) - those great looming monolithic chords at the end remind me of some fine paintings by Mark Rothko in the Tate Gallery in London.

Now, lets get back to discussing the pronunciation of VW's first name (it is actually 'Rafe' as in 'Ralph Fiennes') and he apparently hated it if people pronounced it 'Ralf' (too working-class I guess).

Now, some people do not like Vaughan Williams's (or should it be Vaughan Williams'?) music and I totally respect their opinion (well, sort-of).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on October 29, 2009, 03:25:51 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 29, 2009, 11:36:25 AMHow does one get a two part non-hyphenated name like Vaughan Williams?

Magic.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on November 01, 2009, 08:39:17 AM
      I saw Vaughan Williams 5th Symphony last night - it was the first time I'd heard one of his symphonies live, and also the first time I'd heard one performed by a non-British orchestra, excluding my recording of Stokowski doing the 4th, and Mitropolous doing the 6th, neither of which I'm too fond of. I spoke with one of the orchestra's violists beforehand, who told me that she didn't really care for Vaughan-Williams - and it came through in the performance. Don't get me wrong - it was all in tune, in time, and an exceptional professional performance... It just all seemed kind of rhetorical, as though the musicians knew how to play it well, but didn't really know why people thought that this was good music. It was the kind of performance that made me realize why RVW doesn't get programmed as much as I'd like. Oh well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on November 01, 2009, 09:56:41 AM
Quote from: Dana on November 01, 2009, 08:39:17 AM
      I saw Vaughan Williams 5th Symphony last night - it was the first time I'd heard one of his symphonies live, and also the first time I'd heard one performed by a non-British orchestra, excluding my recording of Stokowski doing the 4th, and Mitropolous doing the 6th, neither of which I'm too fond of. I spoke with one of the orchestra's violists beforehand, who told me that she didn't really care for Vaughan-Williams - and it came through in the performance. Don't get me wrong - it was all in tune, in time, and an exceptional professional performance... It just all seemed kind of rhetorical, as though the musicians knew how to play it well, but didn't really know why people thought that this was good music. It was the kind of performance that made me realize why RVW doesn't get programmed as much as I'd like. Oh well.

It struck you we wouldn't be interested in what orchestra and what conductor?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 01, 2009, 11:03:49 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 01, 2009, 09:56:41 AM
It struck you we wouldn't be interested in what orchestra and what conductor?


I'm guessing the Rochester Symphony Orchestra. Conductor?...no idea.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 01, 2009, 11:14:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 29, 2009, 02:44:42 PM
Well, I have all those versions too, plus one with Yarbrough and Cowan with Paul Freeman conducting (Centaur Label), but I do not regret getting this new one - especially at superbudget price. But then again I do suffer from some kind of obsessive-compulsive CD collecting disorder (OCCDCD)

I have the same disease, and you, sir, are an enabler. Shame.

;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on November 01, 2009, 11:52:07 AM
Quote from: Dana on November 01, 2009, 08:39:17 AM
      I saw Vaughan Williams 5th Symphony last night - it was the first time I'd heard one of his symphonies live, and also the first time I'd heard one performed by a non-British orchestra, excluding my recording of Stokowski doing the 4th, and Mitropolous doing the 6th, neither of which I'm too fond of. I spoke with one of the orchestra's violists beforehand, who told me that she didn't really care for Vaughan-Williams - and it came through in the performance. Don't get me wrong - it was all in tune, in time, and an exceptional professional performance... It just all seemed kind of rhetorical, as though the musicians knew how to play it well, but didn't really know why people thought that this was good music. It was the kind of performance that made me realize why RVW doesn't get programmed as much as I'd like. Oh well.

    I ran into this when I attended a performance of Serenade to Music in the choral/piano accompaniment version. The singing was very fine but the piano introduction and interludes were uninflected, just flatly rendered as though the pianist had no real idea of how the music ought to go. Perhaps the piano reduction is partly to blame, and in fact that immediately occurred to me. Still it should have been better rendered than it was.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dana on November 01, 2009, 01:53:49 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 01, 2009, 11:03:49 AMI'm guessing the Rochester Symphony Orchestra. Conductor?...no idea.

Sarge

Christopher Seaman.

In the RPO's defense, they absolutely killed the Sibelius Violin Concerto with Vadim Gluzman before the symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 20, 2009, 03:33:33 AM
BBC3 - Discovering Music - Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 5

Info: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jdhxk
Stream: http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3.asx

QuoteStephen Johnson explores one of Vaughan Williams's most tranquil works - his Symphony No 5 in D.

The work was begun in 1938, just before the outbreak of the Second World War, and completed in 1943, and its serenity was set against the horrific backdrop of violence taking place throughout Europe at the time. Vaughan Williams conjures tonal images of the English countryside and often alludes to the sounds of Elizabethan polyphony.

In a recording made at Glasgow's City Halls in October 2008, Paul Daniel conducts the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra in excerpts and a complete performance of the work.
Broadcasts

   1.
      Sun 29 Mar 2009
      17:00
      BBC Radio 3
   2.
      Sun 27 Dec 2009
      17:00

      BBC Radio 3
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2009, 12:36:27 PM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 20, 2009, 03:33:33 AM
BBC3 - Discovering Music - Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 5

Info: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jdhxk (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jdhxk)
Stream: http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3.asx (http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3.asx)


Thanks!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 26, 2010, 02:21:03 PM
If you like choral music, you should enjoy this CD - the best choral programme of VW's music known to me. The major work featured is the unaccompanied Mass in G Minor, but for me the highlight was 'The Voice out of the Whirlwind', which is an arrangement of one of the most moving sections of 'Job' - A Masque for Dancing ('The Galliard of the Sons of the Morning') - a truly lovely piece.  I enjoyed all the other works too. They are performed by Timothy Brown (who, interestingly enough, as a boy chorister, sung at Vaughan Williams' funeral at Westminster Abbey in 1958)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on February 26, 2010, 03:46:27 PM
The choir who will sing my Opus 92 Passion in March, Sine Nomine, will sing the g minor Mass in May. I'm going to let that event introduce me to the piece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 26, 2010, 10:55:10 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 26, 2010, 03:46:27 PM
The choir who will sing my Opus 92 Passion in March, Sine Nomine, will sing the g minor Mass in May. I'm going to let that event introduce me to the piece.

That sounds very exciting Karl! I'm sure you'll like the VW Mass and I hope that the performance of your Passion goes well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moldyoldie on March 13, 2010, 06:02:11 AM
[Pasted from W.A.Y.L.T.]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XP4P320CL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 2 (A London Symphony); Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
London Philharmonic Orchestra
Bernard Haitink, cond.
EMI

Coming to Bernard Haitink's late '80s rendition of Ralph Vaughan Williams' pictorial A London Symphony is like beholding a great city stupefied as to its post-Victorian destiny.  While the soft tolling of Big Ben is barely perceived upon a peaceful daybreak, our anticipation that the capital of The Empire will eventually spring to life is quashed by a surfeit of soft legato phrasing throughout, all abetted by tempi and dynamics seemingly meant to draw us into this city's collective daylong reverie...or perhaps its living on the edge of a shattered dream filled with self-doubt. 

To the novice listener, instead of exemplifying one of the world's diverse centers of culture and commerce as heard in fine recordings from the likes of Boult, Handley, and Previn; this is London on a solemn and sobering Sunday, perhaps too hungover from Saturday night to ever get out of bed and get dressed for church.  It's probably best listened to in a like state -- don't worry, you won't wake the neighbors.

The appended Tallis Fantasia, a truly great and powerful piece for string orchestra, is given the same downy, yet downtrodden treatment.  Is this supposed to be the antecedent of Britain's forthcoming place in the 20th century?  Was the composer this calmly despondent at the state of the world?  For that matter, was Haitink? 

I'm thinking both these sleepy "new age" performances are more reflectively reactive to Thatcher's world than of Vaughan Williams to his.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 13, 2010, 10:42:30 AM
You're not the only one here to express your doubts about Haitink's reading of RVW. Indeed, his complete cycle is a dismal failure, IMHO.  :-[
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on March 19, 2010, 06:23:07 PM
Quote from: Christo on March 13, 2010, 10:42:30 AM
You're not the only one here to express your doubts about Haitink's reading of RVW. Indeed, his complete cycle is a dismal failure, IMHO.  :-[

Oh dear. Can't agree there my friend, no no.

Jeffrey, I do mean do get that choral music disc. It is atop my list at the moment!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on March 19, 2010, 06:41:39 PM
A Benji sighting!  And a very moggy Christmas to you, too, sir! 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 08:00:54 PM
Quote from: Christo on March 13, 2010, 10:42:30 AM
You're not the only one here to express your doubts about Haitink's reading of RVW. Indeed, his complete cycle is a dismal failure, IMHO.  :-[

Having listened to the cycle in it's entirety, I found it extremely rewarding and enjoyable.  So sorry that your efforts to appreciate it were such a dismal failure.   8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on March 22, 2010, 05:10:16 PM
Quote from: Christo on March 13, 2010, 10:42:30 AM
You're not the only one here to express your doubts about Haitink's reading of RVW. Indeed, his complete cycle is a dismal failure, IMHO.  :-[

Yes. Lifeless.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 23, 2010, 01:28:07 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 13, 2010, 10:42:30 AM
You're not the only one here to express your doubts about Haitink's reading of RVW. Indeed, his complete cycle is a dismal failure, IMHO.  :-[

I think that the Norrington cycle is worse as is the Andrew Davis, with the exception of a very good performance of Symphony No 6 (No 9 and Job are good too). Haitink's No 6 is good I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Renfield on March 23, 2010, 03:17:35 AM
Interesting to see how Haitink polarises opinion. I have that cycle somewhere, bought on offer for ridiculously little money.

Perhaps it's worth giving it a spin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on March 23, 2010, 04:32:59 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 08:00:54 PM
Having listened to the [Haitink] cycle in its entirety, I found it extremely rewarding and enjoyable.

Likewise!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on March 23, 2010, 04:34:37 AM
Of the nine symphonies, the London was the last to win me over . . . and I especially have felt that probably the last thing I need to hear is the "restored full version" . . . but Sara's review has me re-thinking that.  Another drat this morning! ; )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on March 23, 2010, 04:55:40 AM
Alive to that aspect of the matter, too, thanks!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 24, 2010, 02:05:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 23, 2010, 01:28:07 AM
I think that the Norrington cycle is worse as is the Andrew Davis, with the exception of a very good performance of Symphony No 6 (No 9 and Job are good too). Haitink's No 6 is good I think.

Definitely agree on the Davis cycle - I even beg to disagree with many about his famous & much-praised Sixth. I don't think it's good at all, and all the others are misinterpretations too. I didn't know Norrington completed a cycle - I only know his coupling of nos. 5 and 6 and can well agree with your judgement.

We seem to differ about Haitink. Well, I was so appalled about his Fifth, Eight and Ninth, that I never really tried the other ones. All I seem to recall is an endless legato, the biggest injustice aginst RVW's intentions I ever heard. Will give the Sixth (my favourite is still Thompson) a try.   ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 24, 2010, 02:38:31 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 24, 2010, 02:05:07 AM
Definitely agree on the Davis cycle - I even beg to disagree with many about his famous & much-praised Sixth. I don't think it's good at all, and all the others are misinterpretations too. I didn't know Norrington completed a cycle - I only know his coupling of nos. 5 and 6 and can well agree with your judgement.

We seem to differ about Haitink. Well, I was so appalled about his Fifth, Eight and Ninth, that I never really tried the other ones. All I seem to recall is an endless legato, the biggest injustice aginst RVW's intentions I ever heard. Will give the Sixth (my favourite is still Thompson) a try.   ;D

To be honest I don't play the Haitink cycle very much (nice photo of VW in the box set booklet however - the EMI Boult has no picture at all - I always like the booklets to include a photo of the composer  ;D) As for the famous Davis No 6 - I don't entirely disagree but the recording is very good and I found it to be a strong performance at least. One of the best is Abravanel on Vanguard. The Hickox (No 1 choice on BBC Building a Library) was very disappointing. Boult is best in No 6 I think (in order of Decca, Dutton, EMI, BBC Radio Classics). Yes, Thomson's No 6 is also a favourite.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 05:51:09 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 13, 2010, 10:42:30 AM
You're not the only one here to express your doubts about Haitink's reading of RVW. Indeed, his complete cycle is a dismal failure, IMHO.  :-[

Quote from: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 08:00:54 PM
Having listened to the cycle in it's entirety, I found it extremely rewarding and enjoyable.

Since the last time we discussed Haitink's cycle in depth (in the WAYLT thread, I believe) opinions haven't budged. Can't teach us old dogs new tricks, I guess  :D  Haitink remains, for me, the second best cycle after Boult EMI. (I've heard them all save Thomson's which remains stubbornly expensive.)

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 05:57:04 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on March 24, 2010, 04:05:45 AM
Anyone who knows these symphonies only from Haitink's recordings owes it to themselves to hear a different take.

And anyone who doesn't know Haitink's recordings owes it to themselves to hear his very different take. I agree with Michael Kennedy's opinion that Haitink's London is essentially tragic: "Haitink brings home most forcefully the humanitarianism of the music, its tragic awareness of a world on the brink of catastrophe. It is a profound performance." If Haitink doesn't, as you say, "communicate the full range of possibilities in the score," the same thing can be said of any performance. That's why we need multiple versions of course.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on March 24, 2010, 06:48:48 AM
I thoroughly enjoy the Haitink series;  and I can assure the esteemed assemblage that I have heard other conductors' recordings (including the Handley cycle, and divers symphonies conducted by Barbirolli, Boult & Previn).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 24, 2010, 06:56:36 AM
Playted Haitink's Sixth and , errr, well, mmm, it's okay.  :-[ But just. They're not all wrong then.  8)

                                            (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z1YZZD7JL._SL160_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 07:06:48 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 24, 2010, 06:56:36 AM
Playted Haitink's Sixth and , errr, well, mmm, it's okay.  :-[ But just. They're not all wrong then.  8)

Hey, even a Dutchman gets RVW right sometimes :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on March 24, 2010, 07:57:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 05:51:09 AMHaitink remains, for me, the second best cycle after Boult EMI. (I've heard them all save Thomson's which remains stubbornly expensive.)

Sarge

Ironically, the Boult cycle was the first I listened to, and it more or less convinced me that I don't like Vaughan Williams.  I don't have it any more because I justified buying the Haitink cycle to myself by selling the Boult, and it was Haitink who more or less changed my opinion about Vaughan Williams.  Since then I've listened to some other recordings by Barbirolli, Hickox, a few others, that have reinforced my regard for Vaughan Williams.  Maybe it would be time to go back to Boult, although now I only have the Decca set.

When I don't get is the unconditional condemnation of Haitink's cycle as "an utter failure" etc.   I was under the impression that Vaughan Williams was a great composer whose works, like those of Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, admit diverse interesting interpretations.  To me, what these people are saying is that I should regard Vaughan Williams as a composer who wrote a string of period pieces which have to be play just so to create just the right effect, or they flop.  It is not a sign of respect for Vaughan Williams, in my view.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on March 24, 2010, 07:58:29 AM
Word.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 08:24:37 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 24, 2010, 07:57:44 AM
Ironically, the Boult cycle was the first I listened to, and it more or less convinced me that I don't like Vaughan Williams.  I don't have it any more because I justified buying the Haitink cycle to myself by selling the Boult, and it was Haitink who more or less changed my opinion about Vaughan Williams.  Since then I've listened to some other recordings by Barbirolli, Hickox, a few others, that have reinforced my regard for Vaughan Williams.  Maybe it would be time to go back to Boult, although now I only have the Decca set.

Well, the Decca cycle gets the most critical acclaim (and is well thought of here) so you may have Boult's best already with no need for the EMI. My preference for the EMI performances is personal, and biographical. It was the first cycle I owned and, along with Barbirolli's Hallé recordings of 2 and 8, it made a significant imprint on my psyche when I first started collecting music. I find his Decca interpretations rather coarse in comparison and I much prefer the sound quality of the stereo remakes. Who knows: if I'd started with Decca I might have the opposite opinion now. But as it is, Boult/EMI is just too deeply ingrained and won't budge  ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on March 24, 2010, 08:51:18 AM
Well, I don't find highly-charged programs in the Haitink cycle;  I just find excellent music-making.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 09:17:15 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on March 24, 2010, 04:05:45 AM
Most of this landscape is unchanged since RVW's time, and I know what he means about the November afternoon: a kind of grey melancholy, like the smell of damp tweed - when you're aware that you're going to die, not because there's anything wrong with you, but because all things die. This mood is there in the music.  Barbirolli, for one, captures it very well.  But in Haitink's hands it becomes lyrical and passionate - which on its own terms, considered in isolation, is fine - except that it misses the point of this particular piece of music.  Bloomsbury Square on a November afternoon is not dramatic - it's certainly not tragic - it's not even sad, particularly - but there is something about it that makes you aware of, and regret, all those missed opportunities in your life.

I'll try to listen to this movement with your ears. I have Barbirolli's Hallé recording for comparison. Who, besides Barbirolli, do you think captures this mood?

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on March 24, 2010, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on March 24, 2010, 04:05:45 AMTake the slow movement of the 2nd Symphony, which RVW said should convey "Bloomsbury Square on a November afternoon."  Now if there's a corner of London which I'm familiar with in all its moods, it has to be that.  For years I used to work a late shift in Senate House on Malet Street, and every afternoon would drive to the underground car park in Bloomsbury Square and walk up through Russell Square.  Most of this landscape is unchanged since RVW's time, and I know what he means about the November afternoon: a kind of grey melancholy, like the smell of damp tweed - when you're aware that you're going to die, not because there's anything wrong with you, but because all things die. 

Still not getting that damp tweed vibe, more of a sweaty polyester feel.  Maybe it really has to be November.  ;D

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 24, 2010, 09:35:36 AM
Yes, but the big question, which nobody here seems to have considered, is who does the best wind-machine in Sinfonia Antartica? :P

(Below - photo of a wind machine)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on March 24, 2010, 01:25:14 PM
Just putting in my two-penn'orth on the Haitink issue: I believe these other folk who say they find all these other things in his cycle, but they are not the things that ever drew me to RVW in the first place. What captivated me from the start was the English pastoral mysticism, growing as it were from folk roots - the underlying vision that is related in painting to the work of Samuel Palmer, Paul Nash, or Blake's little woodcut illustrations to Virgil. Boult expresses this, for me, wonderfully well. So does Handley. You might say this is too narrow a perception of RVW and you may be right; still, it is essential, for me.

Now, when I listen to Haitink, it isn't there. Or if it is, it's an afterthought, an incidental, a mere whisper of something. And so with Haitink my chief reason for listening to RVW at all simply evaporates. The set just moulders on my shelf now; I keep it there so that I can give it another try, some day - but really, I know I never will. I'm aware that this sounds like an old dog not being able to learn new tricks, and maybe to some extent that's true; but it feels more like the old dog not being willing to abandon the old tricks in order to learn the new ones which, for him, don't reach the deep places that the old ones do.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on March 24, 2010, 02:15:43 PM


Quote from: Scarpia on March 24, 2010, 07:57:44 AM
Ironically, the Boult cycle was the first I listened to, and it more or less convinced me that I don't like Vaughan Williams.  I don't have it any more because I justified buying the Haitink cycle to myself by selling the Boult, and it was Haitink who more or less changed my opinion about Vaughan Williams.  Since then I've listened to some other recordings by Barbirolli, Hickox, a few others, that have reinforced my regard for Vaughan Williams.  Maybe it would be time to go back to Boult, although now I only have the Decca set.

When I don't get is the unconditional condemnation of Haitink's cycle as "an utter failure" etc.   I was under the impression that Vaughan Williams was a great composer whose works, like those of Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, admit diverse interesting interpretations.  To me, what these people are saying is that I should regard Vaughan Williams as a composer who wrote a string of period pieces which have to be play just so to create just the right effect, or they flop.  It is not a sign of respect for Vaughan Williams, in my view.



     Yes, try the Boult/EMI again. Once you begin to appreciate a composer it becomes possible to hear various performances in a different light.

     I only know Haitink's Sinfonia Antartica which is generally very good but at points sounds curiously detached to me, as though the conductor doesn't quite know what feelings the music can impart.

     I will soon have the Handley cycle which I have good hopes for, based on a fine rendition of the Sea Symphony. I still prefer the 2 Boults for that one, though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 02:25:11 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 24, 2010, 01:25:14 PM
Just putting in my two-penn'orth on the Haitink issue: I believe these other folk who say they find all these other things in his cycle, but they are not the things that ever drew me to RVW in the first place. What captivated me from the start was the English pastoral mysticism, growing as it were from folk roots...

While I acknowledge his musical roots, none of his symphonies are really about "English pastoral mysticism"...not even the Pastoral! To hear them only in that way is to pigeonhole him as a member in good standing of the Cow Pat Brigade. I think the composer would be deeply offended by that stereotype.

But I can't, and don't want to change your mind. We've all come to the music in our individual ways. As an American with German ancestry, English pastoral mysticism is utterly foreign to me, of course. I hear something very different in the symphonies.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 02:35:51 PM
Quote from: drogulus on March 24, 2010, 02:15:43 PM
     I only know Haitink's Sinfonia Antartica which is generally very good but at points sounds curiously detached to me, as though the conductor doesn't quite know what feelings the music can impart.

That detachment reflects the inhuman landscape. I think the interpretation is perfect in that respect: nature's indifference...utterly chilling.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 02:37:35 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 24, 2010, 09:35:36 AM
Yes, but the big question, which nobody here seems to have considered, is who does the best wind-machine in Sinfonia Antartica? :P

I'll do some comparative listening and get back to you  ;D :D ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on March 24, 2010, 02:42:23 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 02:25:11 PM


But I can't, and don't want to change your mind. We've all come to the music in our individual ways. As an American with German ancestry, English pastoral mysticism is utterly foreign to me, of course. I hear something very different in the symphonies.

Sarge

      Cool. As an American with German ancestry, I don't know how I'm supposed to hear this music, so I seem to fluctuate between the implied programs (sometimes provided by the composer, sometimes a frame devised by commentators) and the more orthodox approach the composer urged. I also play movies in my head for the symphonies that don't have movies attached to them. There may have been a cow in one of them. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 02:44:48 PM
Quote from: drogulus on March 24, 2010, 02:42:23 PM
I also play movies in my head for the symphonies that don't have movies attached to them. There may have been a cow in one of them. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)

There are some cows in mine too but they all seem to have large bells attached and reside in Alpine landscapes  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on March 24, 2010, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 02:25:11 PM
While I acknowledge his musical roots, none of his symphonies are really about "English pastoral mysticism"...not even the Pastoral! To hear them only in that way is to pigeonhole him as a member in good standing of the Cow Pat Brigade. I think the composer would be deeply offended by that stereotype.

My thought's exactly.  The pastoral mysticism is there in the Lark Ascending, the Greensleeves fantasia, Dives and Lazarus, etc, but I don't see it as pivotal in the symphonies.  It may come in to play in various degrees in some works, such as the 9th, which is supposed to have been inspired by Tess, but what draws me to Vaughan Williams is interesting harmony, counterpoint, and thematic transformation; the music in an absolute sense. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on March 24, 2010, 03:01:14 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 02:44:48 PM
There are some cows in mine too but they all seem to have large bells attached and reside in Alpine landscapes  ;D

Sarge

     That's a Strauss cow. He shared them with Mahler. You really should be more careful. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)

     
Quote from: Scarpia on March 24, 2010, 02:48:05 PM
My thought's exactly.  The pastoral mysticism is there in the Lark Ascending, the Greensleeves fantasia, Dives and Lazarus, etc, but I don't see it as pivotal in the symphonies.  It may come in to play in various degrees in some works, such as the 9th, which is supposed to have been inspired by Tess, but what draws me to Vaughan Williams is interesting harmony, counterpoint, and thematic transformation; the music in an absolute sense. 

     I really do hear the music both ways, not just in jokes. And no matter what composers think about this, it's really out of their hands what listeners imagine.

     I like the RVW/Hardy association. They go together easily in my mind. It's something about their shared humanism, with a tragic sense. When I was first listening to Vaughan Williams I was also reading Jude the Obscure. I couldn't break the association if I wanted to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on March 24, 2010, 03:19:34 PM
Ok, Elgar is Nobilimente, Vaughan Williams is Bovine, let's hope any Britten threads remain dormant for the time being.   ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on March 24, 2010, 04:16:20 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 24, 2010, 01:25:14 PM
Just putting in my two-penn'orth on the Haitink issue: I believe these other folk who say they find all these other things in his cycle, but they are not the things that ever drew me to RVW in the first place. What captivated me from the start was the English pastoral mysticism, growing as it were from folk roots - the underlying vision that is related in painting to the work of Samuel Palmer, Paul Nash, or Blake's little woodcut illustrations to Virgil. Boult expresses this, for me, wonderfully well. So does Handley. You might say this is too narrow a perception of RVW and you may be right; still, it is essential, for me.

Now, when I listen to Haitink, it isn't there. Or if it is, it's an afterthought, an incidental, a mere whisper of something. And so with Haitink my chief reason for listening to RVW at all simply evaporates. The set just moulders on my shelf now; I keep it there so that I can give it another try, some day - but really, I know I never will. I'm aware that this sounds like an old dog not being able to learn new tricks, and maybe to some extent that's true; but it feels more like the old dog not being willing to abandon the old tricks in order to learn the new ones which, for him, don't reach the deep places that the old ones do.

Most interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on March 25, 2010, 04:16:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2010, 02:25:11 PM
While I acknowledge his musical roots, none of his symphonies are really about "English pastoral mysticism"...not even the Pastoral! To hear them only in that way is to pigeonhole him as a member in good standing of the Cow Pat Brigade. I think the composer would be deeply offended by that stereotype.
No, no - Sarge, that's a misunderstanding of what I mean by English pastoral mysticism - I've never had any truck with all that cowpat nonsense, which is indeed an insult to the composer. The examples I gave are the significant ones: Palmer, Blake, Nash in the visual arts. There's nothing cowpat about those guys. One could add Elgar (in the Intro & Allegro and the string quartet, for instance). These are not restrictive pigeonholes I'm proposing but suggestive analogies. Neither am I saying that I hear them only in that way: but it is an essential ingredient, for me - it underpins all else. Without it, the starkness of the sense of loss in the third symphony, for example, would be in danger of becoming detached from its roots and appearing as a kind of floating anxiety.

QuoteBut I can't, and don't want to change your mind. We've all come to the music in our individual ways. As an American with German ancestry, English pastoral mysticism is utterly foreign to me, of course. I hear something very different in the symphonies.
Like you, I'm not trying to convert anyone - just explaining my own perspective. When I describe Nash or Palmer as English pastoral mystics, I'm not trying to put them in pigeonholes - they're great artists, and simply won't stay in the places we try to slot them into. So with RVW. I'm not saying he is only that; but I want to assert that he is at least that. Despite these difficulties of expression, we have to find some way of comparing notes, of talking about the similarities that we perceive, don't we, even at risk of being misunderstood?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on March 25, 2010, 04:42:36 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 25, 2010, 04:16:47 AM
Like you [Sarge], I'm not trying to convert anyone - just explaining my own perspective.

I dig it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on June 17, 2010, 06:09:30 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61EYRZPZDKL._SS400_.jpg)
(violinist: Michael Davis - I hadn't heard of him, either)

I rarely listen to this piece, but I'm enjoying this recording a lot, enough to blab about it a bit... The biggest reason is because it removes some of the airiness that I have come associate with the piece, and introduces a slightly more fantastical and moody quality - but still with the essential tactility the piece calls out for. Problems I have with other performances tend to involve an excessively strongly played or recorded violin part, not necessarily brutalising the music (I have yet to hear such a thing), but underlining it too hard through sheer technical assuredness. The orchestral accompaniment poses just as many issues if it is recorded too cleanly (thin, early digital sound can further hurt this necessity). My favourite recording by Bean/Handley slightly suffers in this respect, as save for the slightly under-nourished (or deliberately under-played?) orchestra, it has everything going for it.

I feel the bloom that Chandos gives the orchestra in its (albeit somewhat unnatural) production helps alleviate this issue of a perceived clinical presentation, and allows the orchestra and soloist more of a dialogue due to the slightly enhanced dynamics of the orchestral part - the lower range of the orchestra really comes through in this recording due to the ambiance in the recording, and I have never heard the woodwinds and lower strings so effectively blend into a pseudo-organ tone to hit home the (as Elgarian would perhaps recognise) "mystical" Blake-like qualities that RVW seems to draw upon in writing the piece.

This slight promotion of the orchestra from accompaniment to a fuller player allows a more naturalistic wave of sound to occasionally momenterally threaten to engulf the soloist rather than to politely and classically slip in. Compared to fine recordings such as Handley, Thomson's brass and lower strings make their presence more strongly known which really underlines the (essential) ambiguity of the piece which is rarely made apparent, as frankly it's not there in the score - it needs to be coaxed out and implied by the performers. Yes it's beautiful, but you must somehow find something concealed behind this to produce a truly great performance.

This is one aspect in which I strongly favour the Bean/Handley in over competition such as, say, Chang/Haitink or Brown/Marriner. The latter two are fine, but lack a true connection. Chang and Haitink for simply producing a very appealing run-through but with none of the wide-eyed feel that Bean and Handley bring to the music (which itself is heavily reliant on Boult's EMI recording, but IMO surpasses that). It simply somewhat "tromps" or slurs at moments, i.e., it feels as if the music has not entirely unfolded at its own pace. The beauty is there, but the radiance is not. Hahn/Davis I don't really understand - it simply sounds wrong to me at the moment. It does have a little more orchestral heft to it than Handley's somewhat ineffectual sounding orchestral part, but it sounds overall disconnected, episodic and weird even moment-to-moment next to Bean and Handley's utterly in the zone take on it, which whether it leaves me wishing for certain small differences or not, it is nothing if not 'perfect'.

I still feel that Bean/Handley is the most "yes, you understood that" performance, but the Davis/Thomson makes a fine supplement. Does anybody know of any other recordings of note?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 18, 2010, 03:33:55 AM
I assume that you are referring to The Lark Ascending - if so I like the Pougnet/Boult version below.  It is part of an excellent double album.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on June 18, 2010, 04:24:21 AM
Hehe, I did a lot of copy-editing, but seem to have missed that fundimental point :-X

The Boult I knew was from the EMI box with Bean (again). That other recording is intriguing (and cheap, fortunately :D), thanks!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on June 18, 2010, 04:34:26 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 18, 2010, 04:24:21 AM
Hehe, I did a lot of copy-editing, but seem to have missed that fundimental point :-X

The Boult I knew was from the EMI box with Bean (again). That other recording is intriguing (and cheap, fortunately :D), thanks!

      I don't know the Bean/Handley Lark, in fact I didn't know there was one. Is it available, or "available"?

      I have the Handley performance with David Nolan and the LPO from 1985 (just checked).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on June 18, 2010, 04:51:45 AM
Woah OMG, I am an absolute dork - sorry for any wild goose chases caused. I had been going through the EMI RVW 's box and misread a skim of the tracklisting - it was Boult/Bean I was referring to as Handley/Bean, which must mean that I think I heard Pougnet/Boult before and was impressed by it, but found it somewhat surpassed by the Bean recording. But given this evidence of my totally useless memory, I can't assume that, and it looks like I'm going to have to pick it up ;D

An odd mistake, and makes me interested in Handley's real recording of the piece with David Nolan, but the current issue of that disc is coupled with some Elgar pieces that I haven't an interest in owning more duplicates of.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on June 18, 2010, 05:16:20 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 18, 2010, 04:51:45 AM

An odd mistake, and makes me interested in Handley's real recording of the piece with David Nolan, but the current issue of that disc is coupled with some Elgar pieces that I haven't an interest in owning more duplicates of.

      I'm sure if you look around you'll find that it's "available" (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B7LwVxonh0Z8YzZkMzc0NDYtYThjYi00NTNmLWJmZWQtZGQ1MTgzMzJmOGU4&hl=en).* (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/grin.gif)

    * (squinched down to avoid detection by infidels?)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 18, 2010, 05:22:27 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 18, 2010, 04:24:21 AM
Hehe, I did a lot of copy-editing, but seem to have missed that fundimental point :-X

The Boult I knew was from the EMI box with Bean (again). That other recording is intriguing (and cheap, fortunately :D), thanks!

It's a great double album - look out for 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' if you don't know it. One of those fascinating craggy late VW works - this one for Piano, Choir and Orchestra. my brother says it reminds him of the children's record 'Sparky's Magic Piano', but i don't really agree.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on June 18, 2010, 05:42:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 18, 2010, 05:22:27 AM
One of those fascinating craggy late VW works
Ah, a strongest possible recommendation for a work if ever I heard one! I think you said the same of the violin sonata on this forum several years ago which prompted me to buy the Nash Ensemble disc, and it's become an enduring favourite ever since.

Quote from: drogulus on June 18, 2010, 05:16:20 AM
      I'm sure if you look around you'll find that it's "available" (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B7LwVxonh0Z8YzZkMzc0NDYtYThjYi00NTNmLWJmZWQtZGQ1MTgzMzJmOGU4&hl=en).* (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/grin.gif)

    * (squinched down to avoid detection by infidels?)
They will never find us if we whisper this quietly!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 18, 2010, 07:59:32 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 18, 2010, 05:42:11 AM
Ah, a strongest possible recommendation for a work if ever I heard one! I think you said the same of the violin sonata on this forum several years ago which prompted me to buy the Nash Ensemble disc, and it's become an enduring favourite ever since.
They will never find us if we whisper this quietly!

Well, that EMI double album is one for you then! It is very inexpensive on Amazon UK - my favourite of those double album releases which appeared c 2008 for the 50th anniversary of the composer's death.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on June 18, 2010, 08:19:28 AM
Hmm. I'm going through the laborious process of checking what on that twofer is also on the 30 CD box (which I have). It seems that disc 1 of the twofer is directly duplicated in the box, and from disc 2 Boult's Concerto Grosso is included in the box, but frustratingly not his Parita (which is Handley's).

I think as it stands there is too much duplication to buy it, but I'll look out for the bits I need from it either as downloads, or on the remote chance I see the twofer secondhand cheaply.

And now, time to listen to the Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm Tune! (I love that RVW box so much! :'()
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 18, 2010, 08:24:17 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 18, 2010, 08:19:28 AM
Hmm. I'm going through the laborious process of checking what on that twofer is also on the 30 CD box (which I have). It seems that disc 1 of the twofer is directly duplicated in the box, and from disc 2 Boult's Concerto Grosso is included in the box, but frustratingly not his Parita (which is Handley's).

I think as it stands there is too much duplication to buy it, but I'll look out for the bits I need from it either as downloads, or on the remote chance I see the twofer secondhand cheaply.

And now, time to listen to the Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm Tune! (I love that RVW box so much! :'()

Oh, in that case there is not much point in getting the album - but I'll be interested to hear if you like the 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' as much as I do.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on June 18, 2010, 09:17:23 AM
It feels like RVW in full esoteric mode after two listens: alongside works like Flos Campi, but atmospherically so different - Flos is heavenly, this is earthbound for the most part, until the final few minutes which are wonderfully euphoric, although retain that essential weight from the orchestra and piano to suitably differenciate it. It would be interesting to listen to the two works in some kind of programme together...

To be frank, no work for such a complicated to balance array of forces such as an orchestra, piano soloist and chorus fills me with much hope, but that final half won me over with its delightful din. RVW's religious music is generally more mystically-oriented (such as the Te Deum) than this piece so it's quite valuble for what it offers. I couldn't resist listening to the following Magnificat afterwards, and the satisfying transition between the two vindicates the CD programming - it's a great way to follow the 104th and a nice piece in itself.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 19, 2010, 06:35:06 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 18, 2010, 09:17:23 AM
It feels like RVW in full esoteric mode after two listens: alongside works like Flos Campi, but atmospherically so different - Flos is heavenly, this is earthbound for the most part, until the final few minutes which are wonderfully euphoric, although retain that essential weight from the orchestra and piano to suitably differenciate it. It would be interesting to listen to the two works in some kind of programme together...

To be frank, no work for such a complicated to balance array of forces such as an orchestra, piano soloist and chorus fills me with much hope, but that final half won me over with its delightful din. RVW's religious music is generally more mystically-oriented (such as the Te Deum) than this piece so it's quite valuble for what it offers. I couldn't resist listening to the following Magnificat afterwards, and the satisfying transition between the two vindicates the CD programming - it's a great way to follow the 104th and a nice piece in itself.

Thanks for the feedback. I too listened to the Fantasia followed by the rather fine, ethereal Magnificat today.  For me, the Fantasia on the Old 104th is inextricably linked to Symphony No 9 as they were coupled together on Boult's old EMI LP. I thought that they went well together.  Glad you liked the late, craggy Violin Sonata.  So at least my recommendations have a 50% success rate  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on June 19, 2010, 04:47:16 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 19, 2010, 06:35:06 AMGlad you liked the late, craggy Violin Sonata.  So at least my recommendations have a 50% success rate  ;D

My first thought, yes, I have to listen to my recording of that one.   My second thought, wait, do I even have a recording of that?   All these British composers are blurring in my brain.  I have the Elgar violin sonata, I have the Walton violin sonata, I think I even have the Delius violin sonatas, do I have the Vaughan Williams violin Sonata?  No!   >:(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 26, 2010, 10:46:35 PM
Ralph Vaughan Williams, for me, is one of those composers that can send you into an emotional tizzy or he can completely turn somebody off and just leave them cold. His sound-world, which was always changing, is one of the most fascinating I've heard in any English composer. I certainly relate more to his music than I do any of counterparts Bax, Holst, and his own teachers Stanford and Parry who were very much conservative in their musical choices. One of the most astounding, and at times breath-taking, aspects of RVW's music is his sheer lyricism even at its most dissonant (Symphonies Nos. 4 & 6 for example).

When I first got into his music, I completely took a chance on some of his smaller orchestral works with a recording by Neville Marriner and the ASMF on Argo. This recording was my introduction to this man's music and what an intro it was! It took me some time to build up strength for his symphones as I heard they're some of the most enigmatic of the entire 20th Century. I wasn't aware that this composer had a dark side, then I heard "Symphony No. 4" and was completely shocked. But one thing still remained: that remarkable lyricism was still to be found in this dark and troubled work, which, by the way, isn't about WWI, it's about his marriage and his feelings of frustration and grief. Though not a great documentary, "O Thou Transcendent" gives us a better glimpse into his first marriage.

RVW is one of my favorite composers and I think if anyone was to look into exploring English composers, he should definitely be the first one to explore as his music bleeds humanity, purity, beauty, and humility. I am humbled everytime I hear a work like "Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus" or "Five Tudor Portraits" or "Flos Campi," or "Job: A Masque for Dancing" or "Conceto for Two Pianos," etc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2010, 04:18:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 26, 2010, 10:46:35 PM
When I first got into his music, I completely took a chance on some of his smaller orchestral works with a recording by Neville Marriner and the ASMF on Argo. This recording was my introduction to this man's music and what an intro it was!....I wasn't aware that this composer had a dark side, then I heard "Symphony No. 4" and was completely shocked.

Ah, you eased your way into VW's music. I can imagine the shock then when you met the Fourth :D  Me, I jumped right into the deep end at age 16. My introduction to VW was the Fourth Symphony; heard it during Bernstein's Musical Atoms: A Study of Interval, his young people's concert from late 1965. A few months later I heard the entire symphony on Cleveland's classical station, WCLV. That propelled me to look for a recording but pickin's were slim then in my part of the country and the only VW I could find was Barbirolli's recording of the Eighth (coupled with Elgar's Enigma). That was my first classical LP. A few weeks later I bought the "London" (again Barbirolli's Hallé recording). I've been a RVW fanatic ever since.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 27, 2010, 06:52:00 AM
My second "meeting" with Vaughan Williams was not a success, but the fault was mine.  I've since more than made up for that. My first "meeting" was really a bundle of mostly slighter pieces (hymns, the odd church anthem, e.g.) . . . and the first movement of the Fifth Symphony, to which we listened in class (the Music History sequence), and which I felt I liked well at the time.

Some years later, I was doing my doctoral work in Buffalo, and two or three goes I had at various symphonies left me cold;  but my ears were after other things at the time.

By now, I really like practically all the symphonies (still not an enormous fan of A London Symphony, but that may change) and, for instance, Flos campi.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2010, 08:50:08 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 17, 2010, 06:09:30 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61EYRZPZDKL._SS400_.jpg)

I feel that Bean/Handley is the most "yes, you understood that" performance, but the Davis/Thomson makes a fine supplement. Does anybody know of any other recordings of note?

That is a fine 2-CD set right there, which was apart of Thomson's ongoing RVW series, which I own every RVW recording he made. Just to let everybody know I own all symphony cycles of RVW: Boult (both Decca and EMI), Andrew Davis (Warner Classics), Thomson, Handley, Previn, Slatkin, and Haitink. The sets I'm most impressed with are Thomson, Davis, and Boult (EMI). I feel Slatkin, Handley, Previn, and Haitink fall short for different reasons. One problem with the Previn is the terrible audio rendered by RCA. The main problems I have with Handley, Slatkin, and Haitink is I don't think they were fully committed to RVW's sound-world. Handley's recording of "Symphony No. 5" is one of the bigger disappointments in my collection. I do feel, however, that Handley's best performances are "A Pastoral Symphony" and "Job: A Masque for Dancing." I will have to revisit his reading of "The Lark Ascending." My favorite "Lark" is the very one you praised: Davis/Thomson. I also liked Little/Davis on Warner. It's so hard to get the right balance in this work. Like you said, some performances feature a very virtuosic, and closely miked, violin part that completely drowns out the orchestra. Three performances I can think of that do this: Chang/Haitink, Kennedy/Rattle, and Hahn/Colin Davis. I feel the Davis/Thomson offers just the right balance and dialogue between soloist and orchestra.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on June 27, 2010, 08:56:19 AM
This morning, I cycled to RVW's 5th symphony for the first time, in brilliant sunshine along the length of the cycle path that runs by the river. And very nice it was too, although - and here's a curiosity - it's somehow a lot easier to cycle while listening to Elgar. I wonder if this is as inconsequential as it sounds. We know Elgar composed a lot of stuff while cycling - so maybe something of that rythmic process found its way into the music? Is that altogether a foolish notion? RVW fits the pastoral landscape beautifully, but it would have been just as good if I'd been sitting, whereas listening to Elgar actually seems to make the pedalling less hard work.

Tomorrow I shall be listening to Wagner while walking a tightrope across a vast canyon. The day after (if there is a day after) I shall be listening to Holst in a spaceship to Mars. Etc, etc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: greg on June 27, 2010, 05:10:58 PM
Are there any good performances of the Antarctican Symphony on youtube? I have Previn's version in the box set, and I love it... I'll do a search myself now, but is there anything recommendable?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on June 27, 2010, 05:37:07 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 27, 2010, 08:56:19 AM
Tomorrow I shall be listening to Wagner while walking a tightrope across a vast canyon.

I thought that bore the legend: Kids, Don't Try This At Home . . . ?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on June 28, 2010, 12:06:14 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 27, 2010, 08:56:19 AM

Tomorrow I shall be listening to Wagner while walking a tightrope across a vast canyon.

I do wish you had provided more notice; I would have sold tickets.

On RVW, having read the recent posts I am now going to put on the 4th Symphony. I can't hear it in my head, so want to explore what is surprisingly dark about it.

The sun is shining, that will counteract any impulse to throw myself out of the window.

Mike

EDIT: I have now listened, I had forgotten what a punch it delivers, passionate and for the most part dark. Agitated and exciting.

M
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2010, 03:34:50 AM
Quote from: knight on June 28, 2010, 12:06:14 AM
EDIT: I have now listened, I had forgotten what a punch it delivers, passionate and for the most part dark. Agitated and exciting.

Bernstein's "young people's" lecture on intervals ends with "[The last movement] finally works itself up to a frenzy of major and minor seconds, but at the very height of this exciting build-up, when everything is going like gang busters, on the very last page, the composer suddenly hurls us back into the dissonant rage of the opening movement, and with six final hammer-blows the symphony comes to a savage end. Now why this sudden, brief, angry, dissonant ending after a whole joyful movement that made us feel we'd solved everything at last? Well, it's as if Vaughan Williams were telling us: Ladies and gentleman, boys and girls, that's life."

Bernstein didn't sugarcoat things  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on June 28, 2010, 08:19:21 AM
Quote from: knight on June 28, 2010, 12:06:14 AM
I do wish you had provided more notice; I would have sold tickets.
Not interested in the spaceship-to-Mars Holst performance, then?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: The new erato on June 29, 2010, 12:42:52 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 28, 2010, 08:19:21 AM
Not interested in the spaceship-to-Mars Holst performance, then?
If you go to Pluto, that could be interesting.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 23, 2010, 12:50:13 AM
Just (another) plug for this lovely, poetic, compassionate work -'Epithalamion' (1957) for baritone, chorus, solo flute and string orchestra (with prominent piano). I think that it is his most underrated and little known score. It was written not long before Vaughan Williams died and a critical reaction set in against his music. It is a late craggy (though gentle) score, perhaps difficult to stage because of the forces involved, but there are at leat three CDs now which is pleasing. David Willcocks on EMI is the best but now quite expensive on amazon etc - the other versions are good too. Ideal gramophone listening.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 23, 2010, 05:10:01 AM
Revisited Dona nobis pacem last night; it had been a long time since hearing it last.  Even more tenderly affecting than I remembered it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 23, 2010, 07:30:29 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 23, 2010, 05:10:01 AM
Revisited Dona nobis pacem last night; it had been a long time since hearing it last.  Even more tenderly affecting than I remembered it!

Oh yes Karl, a great work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 04, 2010, 12:07:17 PM
Tomorrow, Steven Isserlis at the Proms plays the surviving fragment of the Vaughan Williams Cello Concerto that we mentioned a few pages back - it's the first performance of a completion and elaboration by Matthews. Should be special.

It's on Radio 3 of course.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 04, 2010, 01:59:30 PM
Many thanks - I don't really keep up with the proms, but this is a must-hear.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 04, 2010, 02:04:01 PM
Yes, I'm so glad that they've done something with this - in a recent interview, Isserlis seemed very taken with it's beauty. Hopefully it will be better than that rather tawdry work he wrote for Casals (The Fantasia on Sussex Folk Songs).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2010, 05:54:39 PM
Quote from: Guido on September 04, 2010, 12:07:17 PM
Tomorrow, Steven Isserlis at the Proms plays the surviving fragment of the Vaughan Williams Cello Concerto that we mentioned a few pages back - it's the first performance of a completion and elaboration by Matthews. Should be special.

It's on Radio 3 of course.

I'm not much for another person completing a composer's work, which why I always laughed when somebody completes another Mahler 10 or somebody fools around with a last movement idea for Bruckner's 9th or Elgar's unfinished 3rd, etc. It just doesn't seem like these people have the best intentions with the given composer's music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on September 05, 2010, 12:15:03 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 04, 2010, 05:54:39 PM
... Elgar's unfinished 3rd, etc. It just doesn't seem like these people have the best intentions with the given composer's music.
Anthony Payne wrote a book about his 'realisation' of Elgar's third symphony. It was a labour of love for years - I suppose he grew to understand more about what Elgar was attempting to do than anyone else is ever likely to do, based on all the scraps of material Elgar had left, together with Billy Reed's recollections of what he'd heard Elgar play. As far as one can tell, his intentions were as good as one could hope for.

Bearing in mind that Elgar had left very little that was actually performable, but only sketches, the result is astoundingly like Elgar, and is a work of such power and delicacy, that for it not to have been given form would have been tragic, in my view. And the process had one very useful biographical byproduct - it demonstrated conclusively that the common picture of Elgar as a washed up composer after the death of his wife isn't correct. What prevented him completing the symphony wasn't lack of inspiration, but his declining health.

But of course it's still a matter of great controversy among Elgarians, and there's a broad split between those who think Payne's 'realisation' was a betrayal of Elgar's wishes, and those (like me) who think the result is so magnificent as to justify the attempt.


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Luke on September 05, 2010, 01:07:52 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 04, 2010, 05:54:39 PM

I'm not much for another person completing a composer's work, which why I always laughed when somebody completes another Mahler 10 or somebody fools around with a last movement idea for Bruckner's 9th or Elgar's unfinished 3rd, etc. It just doesn't seem like these people have the best intentions with the given composer's music.

I also think this is a very hard thing to believe of, for instance Cooke's performing version of Mahler 10 which is and will remain the most high-profile 'completion', I suspect. What proof is there that Cooke wasn't working with the best of intentions here, as Payne was with Elgar? None that I know of, and plenty of evidence to the contrary - it's a scrupulously careful, reverentially-done job, and explicitly not actually a completion either, merely the production of a piece that represents Mahler's sketches in a performable form. For which thanks ought to be given, not doubts over intentions cast, I think.

In the case of my own touchstone composer, Janacek, I'm certainly very grateful for the completion of his violin concerto. Because of its status as a 'completed' work it's not hugely well known - but it is, IMO, very late Janacek at his most passionately personal, and there isn't much better than that in music. Something else to add to the other major last pieces of Janacek, anyway - the 2nd quartet, the Glagolitic Mass, the Sinfonietta and the House of the Dead, with which it is so closely connected.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on September 05, 2010, 01:57:44 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 05, 2010, 12:15:03 AM
But of course it's still a matter of great controversy among Elgarians, and there's a broad split between those who think Payne's 'realisation' was a betrayal of Elgar's wishes, and those (like me) who think the result is so magnificent as to justify the attempt.

If the completed 3rd symphony is a betrayal of Elgar's wishes, it is totally unintentional from Payne's part. I agree with you, the resulting gorgeous work justifies the attempt with ease and I wouldn't want to live without it now that Payne has given it to us.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2010, 03:00:33 AM
Quote from: Guido on September 04, 2010, 02:04:01 PM
Yes, I'm so glad that they've done something with this - in a recent interview, Isserlis seemed very taken with it's beauty. Hopefully it will be better than that rather tawdry work he wrote for Casals (The Fantasia on Sussex Folk Songs).

Actually I rather like the Fantasia on Sussex Folk Songs - but maybe that's because I live in Sussex  ;D. Coincidentally I bought an old cassette of it as a village fete last weekend (my car only has a cassette player) and was playing in this morning. I would not describe it as tawdry. There are very few works by VW that I dislike - one is the Serenade for Music (also at the Proms this year), which I have always found overrated and uncharacteristically self-congratulatory. I could do without ever hearing The Wasps Overture again, especially as I have a million copies on CD, as it is often coupled with works I like.  The Suite for Viola is another work I don't really like.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 05, 2010, 06:47:57 AM
Quote from: Luke on September 05, 2010, 01:07:52 AM
I also think this is a very hard thing to believe of, for instance Cooke's performing version of Mahler 10 which is and will remain the most high-profile 'completion', I suspect. What proof is there that Cooke wasn't working with the best of intentions here, as Payne was with Elgar? None that I know of, and plenty of evidence to the contrary - it's a scrupulously careful, reverentially-done job, and explicitly not actually a completion either, merely the production of a piece that represents Mahler's sketches in a performable form. For which thanks ought to be given, not doubts over intentions cast, I think.

Exactly. And Cooke wrote: "Mahler's actual music, even in its unperfected and unelaborated state, has such significance, strength, and beauty, that it dwarfs into insignificance the momentary uncertainites about notation and the occasional susidiary pastiche composing... After all, the thematic line thoughout, and something like 90% of the counterpoint and harmony, are pure Mahler, and vintage Mahler at that."

What a tragedy it would have been if Mahler's final musical thoughts had remained in some drawer, or tucked away in a museum basement, lost to the world. If all we had was the Ninth as a final statement, we'd be hearing Mahler incomplete, and false, with the final part of his life missing...and that is far more disturbing to me than the "momentary uncertainties" about the performing version. Cooke is one of my heroes.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on September 05, 2010, 07:01:03 AM
Interrupting this discussion about completions of Elgar and Mahler symphonies to insert a brief plug for RVW's A London Symphony and for Hilary Hahn's achingly lovely A Lark Ascending.  As you were.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 07:03:53 AM
Quote from: Luke on September 05, 2010, 01:07:52 AM
I also think this is a very hard thing to believe of, for instance Cooke's performing version of Mahler 10 which is and will remain the most high-profile 'completion', I suspect. What proof is there that Cooke wasn't working with the best of intentions here, as Payne was with Elgar? None that I know of, and plenty of evidence to the contrary - it's a scrupulously careful, reverentially-done job, and explicitly not actually a completion either, merely the production of a piece that represents Mahler's sketches in a performable form. For which thanks ought to be given, not doubts over intentions cast, I think.

In the case of my own touchstone composer, Janacek, I'm certainly very grateful for the completion of his violin concerto. Because of its status as a 'completed' work it's not hugely well known - but it is, IMO, very late Janacek at his most passionately personal, and there isn't much better than that in music. Something else to add to the other major last pieces of Janacek, anyway - the 2nd quartet, the Glagolitic Mass, the Sinfonietta and the House of the Dead, with which it is so closely connected.

I suppose if you look at as we would never hear the work if it hadn't been completed, then it makes sense logically, but the emotional content is what makes a completion sound different, because the composer's own feelings weren't there. Janacek's Violin Concerto was brought together only by fragments. You have to wonder what parts are the composer's own and which are the person who finished it? I just think sometimes that there's a lot of music that should be left alone and honestly I think in many cases the person who completes these works are doing a disservice to it regardless of what their intentions were.

In terms of Mahler's 10th, all of the finished versions I've heard don't even sound like Mahler. I've heard Cooke, Wheeler, and Barshai and none of them come close to Mahler's sound-world.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 05, 2010, 07:05:12 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 05, 2010, 07:01:03 AM
Interrupting this discussion about completions of Elgar and Mahler symphonies to insert a brief plug for RVW's A London Symphony and for Hilary Hahn's achingly lovely A Lark Ascending.  As you were.

Well, the Elgar and Mahler discussions were a little off topic, so your post is not an interruption but a corrective, enabling us to get back on the righteous Ralphian path.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 05, 2010, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 07:03:53 AM
In terms of Mahler's 10th, all of the finished versions I've heard don't even sound like Mahler. I've heard Cooke, Wheeler, and Barshai and none of them come close to Mahler's sound-world.

What, not even the first and third movments?  ;D  We don't know what the Tenth completed by Mahler would have sounded like obviously. He was heading into new territory. No one who's done a completion claims his way would have been Mahler's way. Nonetheless, to my ears Cooke gives us a good idea; it sounds Mahlerian to me. If you don't hear that, well, consider this: We do get pure Mahlerian thematic content and "90%" of his counterpoint and harmony. I'll take that rather than nothing.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Luke on September 05, 2010, 07:19:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 07:03:53 AM

I suppose if you look at as we would never hear the work if it hadn't been completed, then it makes sense logically, but the emotional content is what makes a completion sound different, because the composer's own feelings weren't there. Janacek's Violin Concerto was brought together only by fragments. You have to wonder what parts are the composer's own and which are the person who finished it? I just think sometimes that there's a lot of music that should be left alone and honestly I think in many cases the person who completes these works are doing a disservice to it regardless of what their intentions were. Some things are better left alone.

In terms of Mahler's 10th, all of the finished versions I've heard don't even sound like Mahler. I've heard Cooke, Wheeler, and Barshai and none of them come close to Mahler's sound-world.

Janacek's Violin Concerto was practically complete, actually, and he only put it aside because he decided to use the material in the opera too. He wasn't dissatisfied with it as music and wasn't suppressing it, but it ends up making a fabulous addition to the too-small corpus of Janacek orchestral music.

Re Mahler, Cooke wasn't attempting to recreate Mahler's soundworld (in terms of orcehstration), of course. He willingly stated that all he had done was to make the music performable by orchestrating the sketches as they were, without addition, in a basically Mahlerian way but without the idiosyncratic additions which Mahler would certainly have added at a later point - for instance unusual orchestral paraphenalia such as we find in some of the symphonies, and the typical Mahler figurations and counterpoints which he would certainly have added but that Cooke wouldn't dare to predict etc. But thank goodness he did, because almost all the notes themselves, as they stand, (as distinct from orchestration and figuration) are Mahler, and it would be appalling if we were unable to hear them. Barshai's version takes Cooke's approach a little further, he plays slightly looser in order to make the work live a little more. I think both approaches are viable, and in fact, they illuminate each other and together take us even closer to what Mahler might have ended up writing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on September 05, 2010, 07:27:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 05, 2010, 07:05:12 AM
Well, the Elgar and Mahler discussions were a little off topic, so your post is not an interruption but a corrective, enabling us to get back on the righteous Ralphian path.
But there have been some interesting and informative points made.

Quote from: Mirror Image on September 04, 2010, 05:54:39 PM
I always laughed when somebody completes another Mahler 10 or somebody fools around with a last movement idea for Bruckner's 9th or Elgar's unfinished 3rd, etc. It just doesn't seem like these people have the best intentions with the given composer's music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 07:03:53 AM
I've heard Cooke, Wheeler, and Barshai and none of them come close to Mahler's sound-world.
Some comments, of course, tells us much about the poster but nothing whatsoever about the quality of these completions, the integrity and diligence of those whose labors of love they are, nor about "Mahler's sound-world."  Personally, I love Barshai's completion and suspect that Mahler would, too.  The idea that he or Cooke had anything less than the best of intentions is not just absurd, but surprisingly dumb even considering the source.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on September 05, 2010, 08:05:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 07:03:53 AM
You have to wonder what parts are the composer's own and which are the person who finished it?
In the case of Payne's realisation of Elgar's 3rd, we don't have to wonder. We can read Payne's book, and listen to the documentary audio recordings he made, in which he discusses all this in great detail, with reasons given for the choices he made. Also the result is generally called the Elgar/Payne symphony, and I think that's an excellent way of describing what's essentially a collaborative effort - not impossibly different from the relation between a painter and his assistants, say (except that in this case the painter wasn't around to do the final touching-up, as someone like Rubens used to do).

I suppose the final justification depends on whether the symphony is worth listening to in its own right, as opposed to being a mere curiosity. One only has to hear the opening sections of Elgar's third - those urgent warning movements like the waves of a threatening sea - followed by the introduction of the yearning, feminine passages (inspired by his affair with Vera Hockman), to realise that the answer is a resounding 'yes'.

(I think we're only partly off topic - one can't discuss the principle of 'completing' unfinished works purely in terms of generalities - but my apols if I've dragged it too far off.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 05, 2010, 10:26:41 AM
This sounds like its somewhere between the Payne and the Cooke, though I imagine it's closer to the Payne end...

About to listen...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 05, 2010, 11:41:14 AM
hmm... rather disappointing I thought - quite bland and lacking contour. The end is nice enough but overall it's a little dull. The BBC commentator weakly suggested that it reminded her of The Lark Ascending - if only! Sadly, no Janacek violin concerto here!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 05, 2010, 11:43:27 AM
Am now listening to The Lark Ascending - my goodness it's so beautiful. Haven't heard it in ages, but listened to it loads when I was younger - still very special though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2010, 02:44:48 PM
Just listened to 'Dark Pastoral' on the BBC i Player - enjoyed it. It just about avoids pastiche and is characteristic. It is indeed no Lark Ascending but is darkly moving and I would want to hear it again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 05, 2010, 02:54:06 PM
Trying to find it's position on iPlayer at the moment, but good lord, the description:

QuoteThe original programme has been supplemented by a BBC commission, continuing Wood's commitment to new works. David Matthews' Dark Pastoral is based on a small fragment of a Cello Concerto by Vaughan Williams.
The BBC is evidently so impoverished that it is happy to tout a 60 year old fragment as a "new work".
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 05, 2010, 03:03:07 PM
It is a new work in a sense - its 8 minutes of Matthews and 4 minutes of RVW.

QuoteJust listened to 'Dark Pastoral' on the BBC i Player - enjoyed it. It just about avoids pastiche and is characteristic. It is indeed no Lark Ascending but is darkly moving and I would want to hear it again.

Would you actually say that it was moving? I thought the gestures were rather empty and that was the main problem - nothing really to touch the heart, or at least nothing compared to what we know RVW can do.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2010, 03:03:43 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 05, 2010, 02:54:06 PM
Trying to find it's position on iPlayer at the moment, but good lord, the description:
The BBC is evidently so impoverished that it is happy to tout a 60 year old fragment as a "new work".

Go into 'Last Night of the Proms' Part 1 and it is c 1 hour 13 minutes in.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2010, 03:26:27 PM
Quote from: Guido on September 05, 2010, 03:03:07 PM
It is a new work in a sense - its 8 minutes of Matthews and 4 minutes of RVW.

Would you actually say that it was moving? I thought the gestures were rather empty and that was the main problem - nothing really to touch the heart, or at least nothing compared to what we know RVW can do.

Well, in a way it was a bit like film music, but it struck me that there was something characteristic about it, and that the authentic voice of VW was in there somewhere. The end was rather moving I thought and the fact that it was dedicated in memory of Pauline Isserlis, who died earlier this year, added to the poignancy of the piece. It partly reminded me of Holst's 'Invocation' which I also like.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 05, 2010, 03:43:20 PM
Vandermolen: thanks. Part 2 was at the top, so like a genius I had clicked that one ::)

It's a nice piece, but definitely less substantial than I had hoped - the second half has a fair amount of doodling. The opening has many shades of his other work, but I found it increasingly hard to recognise his fingerprint during the cello's knotty development, which was seemingly in his slightly more rugged style, but the rest of the completion doesn't really carry that promise through - I guess it's easier to mimic his more familiar orchestral sound? The orchestra in particular has the ravishing, slow-moving sound so typical of the composer, but didn't have the subtle strong sense of direction that is also typical Vaughan Williams (and especially the Lark) - those little bursts of sunlight were falling in the wrong spots, and it undermined their effect. It felt somewhat like a rogue iceberg drifting about.

Surprisingly to myself, I wouldn't buy a CD for this - despite generally being quite interested in RVW rarities (that Norfolk Rhapsody No.3 fragment is a hopeless case I think).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2010, 04:02:39 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 05, 2010, 03:43:20 PM
Vandermolen: thanks. Part 2 was at the top, so like a genius I had clicked that one ::)

It's a nice piece, but definitely less substantial than I had hoped - the second half has a fair amount of doodling. The opening has many shades of his other work, but I found it increasingly hard to recognise his fingerprint during the cello's knotty development, which was seemingly in his slightly more rugged style, but the rest of the completion doesn't really carry that promise through - I guess it's easier to mimic his more familiar orchestral sound? The orchestra in particular has the ravishing, slow-moving sound so typical of the composer, but didn't have the subtle strong sense of direction that is also typical Vaughan Williams (and especially the Lark) - those little bursts of sunlight were falling in the wrong spots, and it undermined their effect. It felt somewhat like a rogue iceberg drifting about.

Surprisingly to myself, I wouldn't buy a CD for this - despite generally being quite interested in RVW rarities (that Norfolk Rhapsody No.3 fragment is a hopeless case I think).

I would largely agree with your analysis (and about Norfolk Rhapsody No 3) but I would buy a CD of this work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 05, 2010, 04:05:31 PM
I should say that I did find it to be rather poignant due to those flaws - I'm just not sure that this feeling was derived from any intentional expressive aspect the work itself. I admire it as a completion, but I don't think there was enough material written to do a really great job of it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 05, 2010, 05:09:14 PM
I don't think it's just a lack of material - the material itself is lacking - one understands why Vaughan Williams layed it aside. (After all he had plenty of time to complete it)

I also very much like Holst's Invocation and think though it's a minor work, that the material is stronger and the piece has far more of its own character and very special beauty.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 06:30:12 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 05, 2010, 07:27:08 AMSome comments, of course, tells us much about the poster but nothing whatsoever about the quality of these completions, the integrity and diligence of those whose labors of love they are, nor about "Mahler's sound-world."  Personally, I love Barshai's completion and suspect that Mahler would, too.  The idea that he or Cooke had anything less than the best of intentions is not just absurd, but surprisingly dumb even considering the source.

If Cooke, Barshai, Wheeler, etc. aren't tuned into Mahler's sound-world, then what's the point in completing a piece of music that's going to sound like him? Why not just bring in John Doe off the streets and have him finish the work? Look, I don't care if you think my comments are absurd (or dumb), but I'm just giving my opinion. I don't deserve to be insulted. If you enjoy listening to somebody "complete" a composer's unfinished work, then that's your prerogative, but there's plenty of music that is finished that I love that has been left alone.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled programming...

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Luke on September 05, 2010, 09:24:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 06:30:12 PM
If Cooke, Barshai, Wheeler, etc. aren't tuned into Mahler's sound-world, then what's the point in completing a piece of music that's going to sound like him? Why not just bring in John Doe off the streets and have him finish the work?

But it's only your opinion that they aren't, and you are pretty much alone in it, here and elsewhere, including the opinion of many fine musicians who have studied the man's music in depth all their lives. There are some great conductors who didn't/don't perform the completed versions (I'm really only talking about Cooke and Barshai's versions here, btw) - but because they aren't guaranteed 100% Mahler, not because they don't sound Mahlerian. That's a principled stance, and it's laudable, but we have about 95% of Mahler's intentions either explicitly notated or nearly-as-explicitly indicated and the remaining 5% also all accounted for in the source to varying degrees, and so it's not surprising that most people want to actually hear it!

Mahler's soundworld, too, was not some static object that got frozen around the time of the 5th symphony (or whenever). It developed hugely (obviously - compare Klagende Lied to the 9th...two different composers!). In terms of those classic middle Mahler symphonies there are things in the 8th, 9th and in Das Lied which are very 'unMahlerian'; and the first movement of the 10th, which is pure Mahler untouched by anyone else's hand, is also doing things that he'd never done before. Just look at the score! It looks nothing like anything else from his pen! It only sounds like Mahler because we know it is; in the terms of the previous music, this is something very new.

Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 06:30:12 PM
Look, I don't care if you think my comments are absurd (or dumb), but I'm just giving my opinion. I don't deserve to be insulted.

As I just said, not liking completions is a valid stance. I don't think anyone would have got annoyed if you'd just said that. But the insulting tone came from you - not to anyone here, but to honest, deeply intelligent servants to music such as Cooke and Barshai (and - you struck with a broad brush at anyone who works on completions - Payne, and Stedron....) who, it has to be said, no one here is fit to hold a candle to. To say that they worked without good intentions was an unpleasant and inaccurate slur on them and their work - that's why people got a bit heated. Again - though deciding you don't like the idea of completing Mahler 10 is perfectly fine (and you are in good company with that) casting aspersions on the motives of those that have done so is not.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 10:03:26 PM
Quote from: Luke on September 05, 2010, 09:24:03 PM
But it's only your opinion that they aren't, and you are pretty much alone in it, here and elsewhere, including the opinion of many fine musicians who have studied the man's music in depth all their lives. There are some great conductors who didn't/don't perform the completed versions (I'm really only talking about Cooke and Barshai's versions here, btw) - but because they aren't guaranteed 100% Mahler, not because they don't sound Mahlerian. That's a principled stance, and it's laudable, but we have about 95% of Mahler's intentions either explicitly notated or nearly-as-explicitly indicated and the remaining 5% also all accounted for in the source to varying degrees, and so it's not surprising that most people want to actually hear it!

Mahler's soundworld, too, was not some static object that got frozen around the time of the 5th symphony (or whenever). It developed hugely (obviously - compare Klagende Lied to the 9th...two different composers!). In terms of those classic middle Mahler symphonies there are things in the 8th, 9th and in Das Lied which are very 'unMahlerian'; and the first movement of the 10th, which is pure Mahler untouched by anyone else's hand, is also doing things that he'd never done before. Just look at the score! It looks nothing like anything else from his pen! It only sounds like Mahler because we know it is; in the terms of the previous music, this is something very new.

As I just said, not liking completions is a valid stance. I don't think anyone would have got annoyed if you'd just said that. But the insulting tone came from you - not to anyone here, but to honest, deeply intelligent servants to music such as Cooke and Barshai (and - you struck with a broad brush at anyone who works on completions - Payne, and Stedron....) who, it has to be said, no one here is fit to hold a candle to. To say that they worked without good intentions was an unpleasant and inaccurate slur on them and their work - that's why people got a bit heated. Again - though deciding you don't like the idea of completing Mahler 10 is perfectly fine (and you are in good company with that) casting aspersions on the motives of those that have done so is not.

Luke, you're making mountains out of mole hills. I don't need you to tell me what is right or wrong. That is for me to decide. My comments weren't intended to be controversial or to start a revolt all across the charts. I simply stated my opinion, regardless of how you or others took it is not of any interest to me. I'm sure you've stated many opinions here on this forum that weren't meant to cause any grief for other people. We all say things from time to time that repulses the other person. It's apart of life.

This said, I'm not knocking the work of Payne or Cooke, I'm simply stating that their work doesn't interest me.

By the way, I'm well aware of Mahler's progression as a composer, so spare me the history lesson. I don't need to be lectured to.

Let me also add that as much as Bernstein loved Mahler's music, and as knowledgeable about it as he was, you never caught him messing around with it or trying to "complete" something that had been left unfinished. No, he had too much respect and intergrity not to do that. You don't fool around or tamper with art. It is either complete or unfinished. I'm with Bernstein, Walter, Abbado, Kubelik, Solti, Boulez, among the others on this one who believe this symphony is incomplete, which is good company to be in!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Luke on September 05, 2010, 10:33:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 10:03:26 PM

Luke, you're making mountains out of mole hills. I don't need you to tell me what is right or wrong. That is for me to decide. My comments weren't intended to be controversial or to start a revolt all across the charts. I simply stated my opinion, regardless of how you or others took it is not of any interest to me. I'm sure you've stated many opinions here on this forum that weren't meant to cause any grief for other people. We all say things from time to time that repulses the other person. It's apart of life.

Doesn't have to be, you just have to check through what you write before you post it. Apart from riling M on a couple of ocassions (and he was a Special Case), I've always managed to stay clear of causing grief.

Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 10:03:26 PM
This said, I'm not knocking the work of Payne or Cooke, I'm simply stating that their work doesn't interest me.

No, you weren't - maybe you are now, so maybe saying this stuff has had some effect, but what you said, the problem line to me and to others, was:

QuoteIt just doesn't seem like these people have the best intentions with the given composer's music.

That is hugely different to simply stating you have no interest in it.


Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 10:03:26 PM
By the way, I'm well aware of Mahler's progression as a composer, so spare me the history lesson. I don't need to be lectured to.

LOL, that is a little funny. In that case you know that there is no such thing as a single 'Mahler soundworld', and that by the 10th it was radically different from what it had been before. That's clear both from the fully completed portions and the sketches. You can't judge the soundworld of the piece by those of the earlier ones.

Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2010, 10:03:26 PM
Let me also add that as much as Bernstein loved Mahler's music, and as knowledgeable about it as he was, you never caught him messing around with it or trying to "complete" something that had been left unfinished. No, he had too much respect and intergrity not to do that. You don't fool around or tamper with art. It is either complete or unfinished. I'm with Bruno Walter and Leonard Bernstein on this one, which is good company to be in!

Yes, but you see, that, I have no problem with. I explicitly said so in my last post. Alma was with Walter too.... until she saw Cooke's work. No, for the last time it's not the opinion that completions are A Bad Thing that is the problem. It's the lack of respect for those that DID make completions, the aspersions cast on their motives. But you've stopped doing that now, so all is well.  :)

And now I have to go to work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 05, 2010, 10:38:59 PM
I don't like to see this disagreement grow. Especially as it seems to be entirely off-topic in its development. I would be grateful if further discussion on this diversion can cease, as it now seems to be more about pressing a specific poster than discussing music.

Knight
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2010, 01:55:48 AM
Quote from: Guido on September 05, 2010, 05:09:14 PM
I don't think it's just a lack of material - the material itself is lacking - one understands why Vaughan Williams layed it aside. (After all he had plenty of time to complete it)

I also very much like Holst's Invocation and think though it's a minor work, that the material is stronger and the piece has far more of its own character and very special beauty.

I agree with you about the Holst - it is a superior work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on September 13, 2010, 08:46:34 AM
Greetings!

I got a copy of Bryden Thomson conducting the 9th, with Howard Shelley performing the Piano Concerto (single piano version). Awesome awesome awesome. Fully deserving of a triptych of awesomeness. I have the Scherzo on repeat now because I'm loving the little episode with the wonderfully hushed muted trumpets (about 2:07 in). Sad yes, but it's a little detail that i'm not sure I noticed before and i'm appreciating it ok  :D

I also got him conducting the 6th on another disc, and I like it. Not sure I like it more than Haitink or Berglund, but I'll give it a few more spins for sure.

In other news, later in the month Hyperion are re-releasing a highly-rated disc of Serenade to Music with the original 16 soloist line-up (Matthew Best conducting). It's at budget price so i'll be picking that up this time around.

Also, I noticed that EMI Classics have a youtube channel now. There is an interesting video of the recording session of Haitink/LPO and Ian Bostridge performing the orchestral version of On Wenlock Edge (a work for which I could not fit enough awesomes onto this page). Even if you don't find the music, or Ian Bostridge's commentary, interesting, it's definitely worth watching to to see how young and skinny-looking he is (how does he make that much noise?). And the boy has some taste in jumpers...  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 16, 2010, 11:40:44 AM
Having a very tough time choosing a Vaughn Williams symphony series. I've been looking at a series because of the sheer rediculous price on EMI these days. Here is what I have been looking at:
Symphonies, Handley (~$24 all in and includes a few other pieces)
RVW Set (30 discs at $44)
Symphonies, Thomson ($54)
Symphonies, Boult ($43)
Symphonies 4-6, Gibson and Silvestri ($9)

The big EMI set seems like a great deal, except I haven't yet really fallen in love with his music and 30 discs is a lot to buy when one is not sure how one will ultimately come down on the music.  And $24 isn't a bad deal for all that music either (which is what I was orignally considering).

What do you think?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 16, 2010, 01:50:25 PM
As much as I want to say grab the collector's box because of how good the music is, I agree that it is probably a good idea to leave it for a while until you are more sure whether you enjoy the music.

I really love the Handley set and view it as a perfect introduction to RVW, but this cycle is included in the box, so if you want to buy that later this would be a duplication worth avoiding. The Boult/EMI set is a no-brainer - it's exceptional - and the 2 CD Berglund/Gibson is as essential a suppliment as you could ask for - Berglund's 4th and 6th are distinctive interpretations which would contrast well with any established cycle. Gibson's 5th is very fine as well, as is Silvestri's superb Tallis.

I've seen near unanimous praise for the Thomson cycle, but I've been too cheap to buy it so far.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on September 16, 2010, 01:54:15 PM
Haitink!  (runs away)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 16, 2010, 01:54:53 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 16, 2010, 01:50:25 PMI've seen near unanimous praise for the Thomson cycle, but I've been too cheap to buy it so far.

It's my favorite RVW symphony set. Brilliantly conducted, performed, and recorded. Whether you want to take the plunge is up to you, but I think it's an essential set in any RVW collection along with Thomson's other recordings like the 2-CD set of concertos.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 16, 2010, 02:01:07 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 16, 2010, 01:54:15 PM
Haitink!  (runs away)
>:( ;)

@ Mirror Image - that Thomson concertos set is indeed great, along with the Berglund twofer it's one of those RVW discs that is almost illogical for a fan not to own.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 16, 2010, 02:02:34 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 16, 2010, 02:01:07 PM@ Mirror Image - that Thomson concertos set is indeed great

What until you hear his symphony set. ;) It's just so damn good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on September 16, 2010, 03:32:15 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 16, 2010, 01:54:15 PM
Haitink!  (runs away)

If you're serious, I second it. If you're being sarcastic, boo to you.  8)

Haitink is a good buy - he does super versions of 1, 6, 7 and 9 and to boot you get the most gorgeous recording of the song cycle On Wenlock Edge, plus a fab tone poem In the Fen Country. It's super cheap too. I wouldn't be without it.

Also can't get enough of the Berglund 4 & 6, that is my go-to for both those symphonies. Some say he brings a Sibelian touch to them.,,,perhaps (6 more obviously) but 4 is totally searing I think, so Sibelian may give you a false impression. At any rate, get this straight away and whilst the discussion re: box sets continues :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 16, 2010, 03:59:34 PM
I can't hear too much Sibelius in the recordings either, but what is there is a magnificent, brooding sense of weight. The (other) BSO strings sound brilliant, and as you say, in the 4th he finds quite some heft in the piece. It makes me wonder how Hickox's 4th compares - many of the rave reviews for that recording originated before the reissue of the Berglund.

Edit: the 4th was with the Royal PO, not the Bournemouth SO (that was the 6th). You win this time, memory >:(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on September 16, 2010, 04:08:59 PM
Quote from: Benji on September 16, 2010, 03:32:15 PM
If you're serious, I second it. If you're being sarcastic, boo to you.  8)

I like it, but it is controversial around here, I find.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 16, 2010, 04:54:11 PM
Quote from: ukrneal on September 16, 2010, 11:40:44 AM
Having a very tough time choosing a Vaughn Williams symphony series. I've been looking at a series because of the sheer rediculous price on EMI these days. Here is what I have been looking at:
Symphonies, Handley (~$24 all in and includes a few other pieces)
RVW Set (30 discs at $44)
Symphonies, Thomson ($54)
Symphonies, Boult ($43)
Symphonies 4-6, Gibson and Silvestri ($9)

The big EMI set seems like a great deal, except I haven't yet really fallen in love with his music and 30 discs is a lot to buy when one is not sure how one will ultimately come down on the music.  And $24 isn't a bad deal for all that music either (which is what I was orignally considering).

What do you think?

If you're looking just for a symphony set, then it's hard to go wrong with the Thomson (I bet you guys didn't see that one coming  :P ). I think Andrew Davis and Boult (on EMI) are also great cycles. I'm less impressed with Previn, Handley, Slatkin, and Daniel/Bakels (Naxos). I own them all and have heard them all. I also own almost every single recording of his symphonies outside of the box sets.

But if you choose the Thomson, be prepared to buy the companion 2-CD set of concertos. It's a must-buy!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 16, 2010, 05:41:22 PM
For a complete set, my recommendation is always to go with Previn. Shame he's not on EMI :) Otherwise, buy the Handley set (you don't need the Collector's Edition unless you are a completist). He's the most consistent.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 16, 2010, 05:44:34 PM
I wouldn't say that the collector's edition is worth it for every last obscure song or motet, but more for the 10 or more discs of major works alongside the symphonies. Buying those seperately is a pretty big expenditure... Naturally the definition of "major work" will remain eternally ambiguous ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 16, 2010, 06:01:46 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 16, 2010, 05:41:22 PMOtherwise, buy the Handley set (you don't need the Collector's Edition unless you are a completist). He's the most consistent.

I disagree. Handley is quite uneven. His performances of the A Sea Symphony, A London Symphony, and Symphony No. 5 are incredibly lackluster. Thomson is the most consistent symphony cycle of all. I'm not sure how many comparisons you've done, but I own all the cycles and I've compared all of them. Handley is at the bottom of my list, though his performance of A Pastoral Symphony and Job: A Masque for Dancing are outstanding.

My problem with Previn is the awful audio quality that plagues the whole cycle. The performances are fine, but the audio makes this set unbearable for me to listen to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 16, 2010, 06:14:59 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 16, 2010, 05:44:34 PM
I wouldn't say that the collector's edition is worth it for every last obscure song or motet, but more for the 10 or more discs of major works alongside the symphonies. Buying those seperately is a pretty big expenditure... Naturally the definition of "major work" will remain eternally ambiguous ;D

I never bought that collection because I think it's a joke really. Usually sets like those, especially from EMI, are rush jobs. There is usually no kind of thought put into what to include/what not to include and the booklets to those EMI sets are a travesty beyond words. It just seems like bad deal all the way around in my opinion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 16, 2010, 06:25:47 PM
I must admit, at times I found even the simple tracklisting in the Collector's Edition to be woefully unclear in its layout. If you can't get a tracklisting right, what can you do, EMI?

But regardless I am happy to own all three of their big boxes. Some are more valuble than others -  the major works in the Elgar box could be easily collected elsewhere, but the Britten set is a treasure-trove of sleepers and goodies given how much attention the Decca recordings of the composer get. The RVW falls in the middle - there is a lot of great music that I would be unwilling to pay the neccessary large amounts to buy seperately (mainly the operas and songs).

Also, re-quoting ukrneal's question so it's not buried under my chatter :-X

Quote from: ukrneal on September 16, 2010, 11:40:44 AM
Having a very tough time choosing a Vaughn Williams symphony series. I've been looking at a series because of the sheer rediculous price on EMI these days. Here is what I have been looking at:
Symphonies, Handley (~$24 all in and includes a few other pieces)
RVW Set (30 discs at $44)
Symphonies, Thomson ($54)
Symphonies, Boult ($43)
Symphonies 4-6, Gibson and Silvestri ($9)

The big EMI set seems like a great deal, except I haven't yet really fallen in love with his music and 30 discs is a lot to buy when one is not sure how one will ultimately come down on the music.  And $24 isn't a bad deal for all that music either (which is what I was orignally considering).

What do you think?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 16, 2010, 06:31:53 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 16, 2010, 06:25:47 PM
I must admit, at times I found even the simple tracklisting in the Collector's Edition to be woefully unclear in its layout. If you can't get a tracklisting right, what can you do, EMI?

But regardless I am happy to own all three of their big boxes. Some are more valuble than others -  the major works in the Elgar box could be easily collected elsewhere, but the Britten set is a treasure-trove of sleepers and goodies given how much attention the Decca recordings of the composer get. The RVW falls in the middle - there is a lot of great music that I would be unwilling to pay the neccessary large amounts to buy seperately (mainly the operas and songs)

I own all the Elgar on EMI that I wanted and I own all the Britten on EMI that I wanted and the RVW seemed just like a ridiculous afterthought to me. EMI isn't one of my favorite labels anyway. Come to think of it, there aren't many recordings on EMI that I own that I come back to very much. My labels of choice are: Chandos, Decca, Deutsche Grammophon, Ondine, BIS, Naxos, RCA, Sony, and Warner Classics.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 16, 2010, 07:39:19 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 16, 2010, 06:01:46 PM
I disagree. Handley is quite uneven. His performances of the A Sea Symphony, A London Symphony, and Symphony No. 5 are incredibly lackluster. Thomson is the most consistent symphony cycle of all. I'm not sure how many comparisons you've done
I have Previn, Handley, Thomson, most of the Naxos cycle, Haitink, Boult/EMI, plus a few singles. I'd probably put them in that order too. Thomson is usually too stiff and stolid for my tastes, but I admire him in 5 and 8.

On my less-than-audiophile system, Previn's sound is more agreeable than most of the others.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 16, 2010, 08:06:26 PM
What do you all think of RVW's operas? I haven't heard any of them as many may know I'm not a big opera fan, but I'm anxious to hear Sir John In Love and The Pilgrim's Progress.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 16, 2010, 09:10:28 PM
I have the operas in the Collector's Edition. I've listened to Progress and part of Sir John, and wasn't hugely impressed with either. I think part of the problem was that the vocals were too prominent, obscuring the interesting stuff happening in the orchestra (the orchestra sounds much better in the rehearsal supplement for Pilgrim's Progress). But even with that aside, I thought the best bits of Progress were the parts I already knew from the symphony; and Sir John was disappointingly lacking in appealing melody, which I had been led to believe was its main attraction. I haven't heard Riders to the Sea.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 16, 2010, 09:15:28 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 16, 2010, 09:10:28 PM
I have the operas in the Collector's Edition. I've listened to Progress and part of Sir John, and wasn't hugely impressed with either. I think part of the problem was that the vocals were too prominent, obscuring the interesting stuff happening in the orchestra (the orchestra sounds much better in the rehearsal supplement for Pilgrim's Progress). But even with that aside, I thought the best bits of Progress were the parts I already knew from the symphony; and Sir John was disappointingly lacking in appealing melody, which I had been led to believe was its main attraction. I haven't heard Riders to the Sea.

Thank you for your opinion. I had lingering doubts about his operas for whatever reasons. I would still like to listen to the music and judge for myself though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 16, 2010, 10:46:31 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 16, 2010, 09:15:28 PM
Thank you for your opinion. I had lingering doubts about his operas for whatever reasons. I would still like to listen to the music and judge for myself though.
Of course! I hope you will find more in them than I did. I confess I am not a great fan of opera or vocal music generally, but I tried to be openminded in the case of a composer whose orchestral works I love. I will of course try these works again at some point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 17, 2010, 12:24:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 16, 2010, 08:06:26 PM
What do you all think of RVW's operas? I haven't heard any of them as many may know I'm not a big opera fan, but I'm anxious to hear Sir John In Love and The Pilgrim's Progress.

I'm not an opera fan either, but having had the good fortune to see The Pilgrim's Progress in London a couple of years ago (Hickox conducting and his son singing the poignant woodcutter's boy scene), I have come to the conclusion that this is possibly his greatest work - it was about the most moving musical experience ever for me.

Here's a review:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/jun/24/classicalmusicandopera.livemusicreview
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 17, 2010, 04:28:22 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on September 16, 2010, 11:40:44 AM
Having a very tough time choosing a Vaughn Williams symphony series. I've been looking at a series because of the sheer rediculous price on EMI these days. Here is what I have been looking at:
Symphonies, Handley (~$24 all in and includes a few other pieces)
RVW Set (30 discs at $44)
Symphonies, Thomson ($54)
Symphonies, Boult ($43)
Symphonies 4-6, Gibson and Silvestri ($9)

The big EMI set seems like a great deal, except I haven't yet really fallen in love with his music and 30 discs is a lot to buy when one is not sure how one will ultimately come down on the music.  And $24 isn't a bad deal for all that music either (which is what I was orignally considering).

What do you think?

I agree with MI in that the Handley cycle is my least favorite (besides Handley, I own Haitink, Thomson, Previn, Boult EMI and Bakels--skipped Daniel's contributions to the Naxos cycle--plus most everything that Baribirolli recorded). But, I agree with Lethe in recommending you start with Handley...or with eyeresist's Previn. The reasons? Because both conductors and their orchestras deliver really good performances (sometimes outstanding or even the best, i.e., Previn's Third and Fifth) that have gathered critical acclaim for decades....and because they are the cheapest 8)  If you aren't sure whether you're even going to like the music, I just can't see spending money on an expensive set like Thomson's.

My personal favorites:

Boult EMI (I prefer these later, more laidback and better recorded performances to his earlier Decca cycle): he just sounds right--not only in Vaughan Williams but in practically every British composer he conducted.

Haitink for a spacious and profoundly "symphonic" take on the music (my favorite 1, 7, 8 and 9)

Thomson I haven't fully lived with but it's shaping up to be another favorite. Only disappointments so far: a rushed (especially compared to Haitink and Previn) Ninth, lacking a sense of mystery and an underwhelming, in a dramatic sense, Seventh. Quite impressed, though, by 2, 3, 4, 5 and 8. Still need to hear 1 and 6.

If you buy a box, and find you like the music, you'll need several additions: Berglund's Sixth has been mentioned already. Bernstein's Fouth (still my favorite). Previn's Telarc Fifth. Hickox's Second with the orignal slow movement. Bakel's Ninth (an incredibly dramatic reading). Haitink's Seventh--stunning sound and interpretation! And, although a very personal choice, I recommend Barbirolli's Hallé recordings of 2 and 8 on Dutton. You'll not hear a more nostalgic sounding "London" Symphony.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on September 17, 2010, 04:36:42 AM
Sarge, I agree regarding Thomson in the 7th. He has the most underwhelming organ I've encountered.


And yes, you can take that as a weak sexual pun if you really must.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 17, 2010, 04:50:04 AM
     I would choose the Boult/EMI if I had to limit myself to a single set.

     It can be obtained for $33 from Amazon, not $43. That should tilt the field towards Boult just a little, though I will be getting the Thomson set at some point. I have the RVW 30 CD collection with Handley, but I haven't listened yet.

     
Quote from: Lethe on September 16, 2010, 06:25:47 PM
I must admit, at times I found even the simple tracklisting in the Collector's Edition to be woefully unclear in its layout. If you can't get a tracklisting right, what can you do, EMI?

     Right now I'm engaged in a mammoth project of retagging the whole box. This involves loading the files into iTunes and asking it to retag, then finishing the tags by hand to correct using the booklet. You can't imagine how much work this is unless you've done it before. Fortunately some of the discs have tags that are good enough to work with without bulk retagging.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on September 17, 2010, 06:05:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 17, 2010, 12:24:48 AM
I'm not an opera fan either, but having had the good fortune to see The Pilgrim's Progress in London a couple of years ago (Hickox conducting and his son singing the poignant woodcutter's boy scene), I have come to the conclusion that this is possibly his greatest work - it was about the most moving musical experience ever for me.

Here's a review:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/jun/24/classicalmusicandopera.livemusicreview

I couldn't believe that I'd missed it - I only found out the day after it happened... and it's so rare that it gets done - as the review says the first time in over 50 years... Well, maybe in 2058...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 17, 2010, 06:59:09 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 17, 2010, 12:24:48 AM
I'm not an opera fan either, but having had the good fortune to see The Pilgrim's Progress in London a couple of years ago (Hickox conducting and his son singing the poignant woodcutter's boy scene), I have come to the conclusion that this is possibly his greatest work - it was about the most moving musical experience ever for me.

Here's a review:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/jun/24/classicalmusicandopera.livemusicreview (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/jun/24/classicalmusicandopera.livemusicreview)

I bet that was a great concert. Wish I could have seen it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on September 17, 2010, 08:54:16 AM
Quote from: drogulus on September 17, 2010, 04:50:04 AM
     Right now I'm engaged in a mammoth project of retagging the whole box. This involves loading the files into iTunes and asking it to retag, then finishing the tags by hand to correct using the booklet. You can't imagine how much work this is unless you've done it before. Fortunately some of the discs have tags that are good enough to work with without bulk retagging.
My OCD means everything I have must be tagged perfectly uniformly - any tag database suggestions are usually so far out that I never bother to check them, doing them all from scratch (not to mention they generally have spelling mistakes in the tempo markings anyway). Once I finish tagging Hyperion's Liszt edition I will view this as my crowning - yet also most pointless - achivement ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 17, 2010, 09:09:59 AM
    With 30 CDs I take each one in turn, look at the tags to see if they're mostly right, and if so I make my corrections and additions. If they're way off base I load them into various programs until I get something good enough to work with. When I ....uh...only have the files I might sometimes burn a disc to get good tags. This will work quite often when no program tags the files sensibly. When I load the disc a program that had been spitting out Chinese characters (literally) will say, in effect "Ohhhh, you mean this! Why didn't you say so?". I still have about 12 discs left undone.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on September 17, 2010, 09:39:32 AM
I gave up any hope of getting iTunes to manage my music collection, so I developed my own system which is simple, but serves my needs.

Whenever I rip a CD I do it as a flac file with cue sheet, which goes in its own folder.  I assume the cue sheet is sufficient to figure out which track is which when I load in foobar, but I subsequently ignore it.  In that folder I put a simple text file which has to be called "contents.txt"  In that text file I put the information I am interested in a simple but rigid format.  I have a c code I have written which scans all subfolders, looks for files called "contents.txt" and compiles a list of everything it finds.  At the end it spits out an html file which lists the information about each "contents.txt" it found, with a link to the folder where it was found.  There are lists sorted by composer, by conductor, by performer, by opus number. 

So far it works very nicely.  The cue sheets are derived from that freebd database, and I was thinking of making a little program to read the cue sheet and spit some information into a contents.txt file that I could subsequently edit, but I generally find the information in freebd to be only slightly better than worthless for classical titles.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 18, 2010, 09:29:11 AM
I was not expecting so many replies - and very helpful they were too! I just realized the Haitink can be had for $25-30, so that enters the mix too...

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on September 18, 2010, 11:35:30 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on September 18, 2010, 09:29:11 AM
I was not expecting so many replies - and very helpful they were too! I just realized the Haitink can be had for $25-30, so that enters the mix too...

Some hate it because it is not played in the British fashion.  When they complain, it sounds to me like they resent that he makes the music sound too good.  I like it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Catison on September 18, 2010, 09:05:01 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 17, 2010, 09:39:32 AM
I gave up any hope of getting iTunes to manage my music collection, so I developed my own system which is simple, but serves my needs.

Whenever I rip a CD I do it as a flac file with cue sheet, which goes in its own folder.  I assume the cue sheet is sufficient to figure out which track is which when I load in foobar, but I subsequently ignore it.  In that folder I put a simple text file which has to be called "contents.txt"  In that text file I put the information I am interested in a simple but rigid format.  I have a c code I have written which scans all subfolders, looks for files called "contents.txt" and compiles a list of everything it finds.  At the end it spits out an html file which lists the information about each "contents.txt" it found, with a link to the folder where it was found.  There are lists sorted by composer, by conductor, by performer, by opus number. 

So far it works very nicely.  The cue sheets are derived from that freebd database, and I was thinking of making a little program to read the cue sheet and spit some information into a contents.txt file that I could subsequently edit, but I generally find the information in freebd to be only slightly better than worthless for classical titles.

iTunes has gotten better within the last year for managing a classical collection, so I use that now.  I finally just accept that as long as I can find the music I'm looking for, that is good enough.  I like to have all of the cover art right, though.

I've gone all digital now.  Kindle for books, Airtunes for stereo, AppleTV and Roku box for movies.  I'm not sure if I want an iPad or not, but so far it is working out well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2010, 07:05:18 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 17, 2010, 09:39:32 AM
I gave up any hope of getting iTunes to manage my music collection, so I developed my own system which is simple, but serves my needs.

Whenever I rip a CD I do it as a flac file with cue sheet, which goes in its own folder.  I assume the cue sheet is sufficient to figure out which track is which when I load in foobar, but I subsequently ignore it.  In that folder I put a simple text file which has to be called "contents.txt"  In that text file I put the information I am interested in a simple but rigid format.  I have a c code I have written which scans all subfolders, looks for files called "contents.txt" and compiles a list of everything it finds.  At the end it spits out an html file which lists the information about each "contents.txt" it found, with a link to the folder where it was found.  There are lists sorted by composer, by conductor, by performer, by opus number. 

So far it works very nicely.  The cue sheets are derived from that freebd database, and I was thinking of making a little program to read the cue sheet and spit some information into a contents.txt file that I could subsequently edit, but I generally find the information in freebd to be only slightly better than worthless for classical titles.

Since I rip a lot of my CD collection to one of my iPods, I have to deal with the plague that is iTunes. Thankfully, I devised a system that hasn't failed me yet.

Everything I have on my iPod is located under albums, nothing else and I organize each recording like this:

Example of two box sets that have the same composer:

Vaughan Williams: The Complete Symphonies - Thomson [Disc 01]
Vaughan Williams: The Complete Symphonies - Thomson [Disc 02] and so on
Vaughan Williams: The Complete Symphonies - Boult [Disc 01] and so on

When I have recordings with the same work I define the recording by conductor like this:

Tchaikovsky: The Nutcracker - Gergiev
Tchaikovsky: The Nutcracker - Ozawa

and so on....

As I said, this system NEVER fails. Any questions just ask. I have ran into all the possible problems of organizing music via iTunes imaginable.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2010, 12:30:20 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 17, 2010, 06:59:09 AM

I bet that was a great concert. Wish I could have seen it.

Yes, I'm so glad I went - it was on my birthday too - so, a great birthday treat for me.

I also  have always found the Handley to be over-rated - the performances are ok but none would be a first choice. although in view of what has been said here I must listen to his 'A Pastoral Symphony' again. In fact his earler version of 'A London Symphony' with the LPO was superior to the Liverpool version in the boxed set. Handley's 'Job' is excellent and the harps at the end of the 9th Symphony are the clearest and most moving of all.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 19, 2010, 02:15:32 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 19, 2010, 07:05:18 AM

Since I rip a lot of my CD collection to one of my iPods, I have to deal with the plague that is iTunes. Thankfully, I devised a system that hasn't failed me yet.

Everything I have on my iPod is located under albums, nothing else and I organize each recording like this:

Example of two box sets that have the same composer:

Vaughan Williams: The Complete Symphonies - Thomson [Disc 01]
Vaughan Williams: The Complete Symphonies - Thomson [Disc 02] and so on
Vaughan Williams: The Complete Symphonies - Boult [Disc 01] and so on

When I have recordings with the same work I define the recording by conductor like this:

Tchaikovsky: The Nutcracker - Gergiev
Tchaikovsky: The Nutcracker - Ozawa

and so on....

As I said, this system NEVER fails. Any questions just ask. I have ran into all the possible problems of organizing music via iTunes imaginable.

I must be missing something here. I generally have the music sorted onto the iPod in albums. However, I loaded on Tristan und Isolde and then wanted to put on another version. Because the info came up with the same title, the tracks interleaved themselves, so there were two tracks 1, two tracks 2 etc. Have you found a way to relabel the music?

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2010, 07:33:56 PM
Quote from: knight on September 19, 2010, 02:15:32 PM
I must be missing something here. I generally have the music sorted onto the iPod in albums. However, I loaded on Tristan und Isolde and then wanted to put on another version. Because the info came up with the same title, the tracks interleaved themselves, so there were two tracks 1, two tracks 2 etc. Have you found a way to relabel the music?

Mike

Yes, Mike you can rename anything on iTunes that you want. I rename the album titles, because I search by album. It should look like this if you change the album titles:

Wagner: Tristan und Isolde - Solti
Wagner: Tristan und Isolde - Bohm

...and so on.

When you do it this way, you have 2 seperate listings of one. The reason you have two is because you put the conductors name after the album title. Do you understand what I'm telling you?

Also, I put on one recording at a time to avoid any kind of confusion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 19, 2010, 10:31:26 PM
MI, Thanks, I understand the cataloguing concept and thought that I could do exactly as you suggest, but having played with the system for ages, I can't see how to make manual changes. Again after posting the previous post, I went through all buttons on the screen and all the tool bar options and I can't find how to edit the lines.

Sorry folks that this is off-topic. I won't keep on about it.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 19, 2010, 10:49:29 PM
Quote from: knight on September 19, 2010, 10:31:26 PM
MI, Thanks, I understand the cataloguing concept and thought that I could do exactly as you suggest, but having played with the system for ages, I can't see how to make manual changes. Again after posting the previous post, I went through all buttons on the screen and all the tool bar options and I can't find how to edit the lines.

Sorry folks that this is off-topic. I won't keep on about it.

Mike
First select the tracks you want to change, right click to bring up the menu and click 'Get Info' (which is also in the file dropdown menu if you have that showing). It may ask if you want to select multiple tracks (click yes). Then find the album in the info list and change it. I think RVW might have written a song about this, didnt he... :)

EDIT: Perhaps this one - On Wenlock Edge: Oh, When I Was In Love With You itunes...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 19, 2010, 11:03:43 PM
That's great, thanks. I got half way there, but did not make the needed connestion. I have now tried it out and will be able to tidy up the tracks. Many sets describe each disc slightly differently, which means for example, VW Pilgrim's Progress Disc , then Pilgrim's Progress Disc 2.....meaning the two discs are not listed together.

End of digression.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 21, 2010, 03:48:52 PM
Quote from: knight on September 19, 2010, 11:03:43 PM
That's great, thanks. I got half way there, but did not make the needed connestion. I have now tried it out and will be able to tidy up the tracks. Many sets describe each disc slightly differently, which means for example, VW Pilgrim's Progress Disc , then Pilgrim's Progress Disc 2.....meaning the two discs are not listed together.

End of digression.

Mike

Yes, Mike if you have two recordings of say Pilgrim's Progress with two different conductors/orchestras this is the way I would make it look:

Vaughan Williams: The Pilgrim's Progress - Willcocks [Disc 01]
Vaughan Williams: The Pilgrim's Progress - Willcocks [Disc 02]
Vaughan Williams: The Pilgrim's Progress - Hickox [Disc 01]
Vaughan Williams: The Pilgrim's Progress - Hickox [Disc 02]

This will put all the right tracks with the right recordings. This always works. Remember I search for everything by album.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: anasazi on September 25, 2010, 03:32:39 PM
The Sea Symphony is the one VW symphony that never seems to depreciate for me.  It's enjoyment and thrill seems to ever increase for me.  Amazing opening - perhaps the best of any composer's first symphony. 

Anyway, I have just been enjoying the Spano/Atlanta Symphony recording of this. And I would probably recommend it.  But it does kind of bring me to a question.  There have been SO FEW RVW symphonies recorded by American orchestras.  And, I don't know if Telarc has plans for a cycle (Spano's ASO recording of the 5th is out at this time) or not, but the only other American orchestra that I remember having recorded a VW symphony was the Utah Symphony, conducted by Abravanel - way back in the 50's or 60's.  I used to have the Vanguard lp of the VW 6th.   Maybe Atlanta is the first American orchestra since then to record VW.  I have been to one live performance (of the 8th by the Indianapolis Symphony) and that has been about it.

For the record, I recommend the Spano/ASO recording.  The sound is of course great, and it is a fine performance as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 25, 2010, 04:27:24 PM
     iTunes is great for bulk tagging, where all you need to do is change some tags to make them the same. For instance many discs (or works since I abandon discs altogether) have the same artist, composer, year, genre and maybe other tags in common. By control-clicking a group of files you can tag the group together. This is surprisingly difficult in many programs.

     I've developed enthusiasm for various recordings of the Sea Symphony over the years, but I end up back with Boult. I have the Spano somewhere at the bottom of a pile, unripped and unloved. I'll go back and fetch it some day.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 26, 2010, 02:50:00 AM
Quote from: anasazi on September 25, 2010, 03:32:39 PM...but the only other American orchestra that I remember having recorded a VW symphony was the Utah Symphony, conducted by Abravanel - way back in the 50's or 60's.  I used to have the Vanguard lp of the VW 6th.   Maybe Atlanta is the first American orchestra since then to record VW.

In 1953 there was a broadcast performance of the Fourth by the New York Phil conducted by Mitropoulos (available on the Music & Arts label) and Bernstein recorded the Fourth for Columbia in 1965.

Sarge


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on September 26, 2010, 07:10:43 AM
     Abravanel was a first rate RVW conductor, not only in the 6th but in the few other works he recorded for Vanguard. The recordings date from 1966-67.

     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414T6GS3NVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

     (http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5207/van00007.jpg)

     I'd get these in preference to the Silverline Classics, which give off bad vibes. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)

     
     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: anasazi on September 26, 2010, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 26, 2010, 02:50:00 AM
In 1953 there was a broadcast performance of the Fourth by the New York Phil conducted by Mitropoulos (available on the Music & Arts label) and Bernstein recorded the Fourth for Columbia in 1965.

Sarge

I had forgotten the Bernstein/NYP recording.  I sort of grew-up listening to that record.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 26, 2010, 11:29:39 PM
Quote from: anasazi on September 26, 2010, 02:59:48 PM
I had forgotten the Bernstein/NYP recording.  I sort of grew-up listening to that record.

I used to have that LP too. In general the 4th Symphony seems to be the one that attracts non-British conductors the most. This is easy to understand given its fairly strict classical form. Last night I listened to the Berglund/RPO recording of this - a sizzler, one of my favorite symphonic recordings of anything.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 27, 2010, 12:57:21 AM
Quote from: drogulus on September 26, 2010, 07:10:43 AM
     Abravanel was a first rate RVW conductor, not only in the 6th but in the few other works he recorded for Vanguard. The recordings date from 1966-67.

     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414T6GS3NVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

     (http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5207/van00007.jpg)

     I'd get these in preference to the Silverline Classics, which give off bad vibes. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)

     
   

Abravanel's Vaughan Williams' Symphony No 6 is IMHO one of the very few successes on CD with that particular symphony - unlike nearly all other conductors he does not rush the epilogue - the rest of the performance is fine too as is Dona Nobis Pacem (first ever recording of this work I think - I like the American choir doing the Walt Whitman episodes.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2010, 11:02:43 PM
This interesting item was in the newspapers on 12th October - VW's 138th birthday!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11523197

Here's a brief extract on the piano:

http://www.youtube.com/cambridgeuniversity
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: anasazi on October 15, 2010, 04:52:04 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2010, 11:02:43 PM
This interesting item was in the newspapers on 12th October - VW's 138th birthday!1

Thanks for reminding us.  I completely forgot it was the 12th. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 17, 2010, 12:30:12 PM
I like the look of this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sinfonia-Antartica-Scott-Antarctic-Williams/dp/B002CPD57Q/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1287346867&sr=1-2
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: anasazi on October 17, 2010, 04:03:04 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 17, 2010, 12:30:12 PM
I like the look of this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sinfonia-Antartica-Scott-Antarctic-Williams/dp/B002CPD57Q/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1287346867&sr=1-2

Given the date of this recording, I wonder if RVW might have been present at the recording sessions? 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 18, 2010, 12:16:40 AM
Quote from: anasazi on October 17, 2010, 04:03:04 PM
Given the date of this recording, I wonder if RVW might have been present at the recording sessions?

Oh yes, he was there for all those Decca recordings except for No 9 (on Everest) - he was due in the studio but died unexpectedly in the early hours of 26th Aug 1958.

Here he is with Barbirolli and Ursula Vaughan Williams at the Sinfonia Antartica recording (or rehearsal for the premiere). It was dedicated to Barbirolli.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on October 18, 2010, 07:57:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2010, 11:02:43 PMhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11523197
Interesting, thanks! But there's still enough to explore for me anyway. Today, for the first time I listened completely and attentively to his Symphony No. 6. Now a second time. I seem to like it, especially the Moderato. Reminds me a bit of Antarctica. Don't like the Scherzo yet. But that may all change.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 28, 2010, 11:47:57 AM
Great performance of VW Symphony No 6 with Colin Davis and the Bavarian RSO (Barbirolli had also recorded this work with them). The performance has a wonderfully nihilistic quality, which I think is just right for this work - it reminded me of the great old Boult performance on Decca. Haven't listened to the Elgar yet. I saw Colin Davis do a fine live performance of the VW - I wouldn't normally associate him with this composer. The CD was originally part of a very expensive box set and it's great to see it released on a single CD (Klassik label).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 29, 2010, 12:22:53 AM
That does look interesting. For whatever reason, I tend to like VW performances when there's some non-English element involved (either orchestra or conductor).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 30, 2010, 08:44:01 AM
Quote from: Velimir on November 29, 2010, 12:22:53 AM
That does look interesting. For whatever reason, I tend to like VW performances when there's some non-English element involved (either orchestra or conductor).

Me too. I rather like Elgar's Second Symphony with Svetlanov conducting the USSR Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on December 08, 2010, 07:11:04 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 28, 2010, 11:47:57 AM
Great performance of VW Symphony No 6 with Colin Davis and the Bavarian RSO
Is this studio or live? I linked a Davis 6th broadcast on this forum a few years back that I liked but I recall it getting a rather frosty reception :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on December 09, 2010, 05:50:06 AM
Quote from: Lethe on December 08, 2010, 07:11:04 PM
Is this studio or live? I linked a Davis 6th broadcast on this forum a few years back that I liked but I recall it getting a rather frosty reception :D

Not if you meant Andrew Davis 6th.  :)  That was my first intro to VW's symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 09, 2010, 01:28:23 PM
Quote from: Lethe on December 08, 2010, 07:11:04 PM
Is this studio or live? I linked a Davis 6th broadcast on this forum a few years back that I liked but I recall it getting a rather frosty reception :D

Live recording; Munich 30th April 1987.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on December 09, 2010, 02:32:45 PM
Flos campi. Always a beauty. And to think, I knew nothing of the piece until I read of it in Michael Kennedy's (was it?) bio of RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 09, 2010, 07:29:28 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 09, 2010, 02:32:45 PM
Flos campi. Always a beauty. And to think, I knew nothing of the piece until I read of it in Michael Kennedy's (was it?) bio of RVW.

Flos Campi is a beautiful work. I've loved it for years.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 31, 2010, 03:52:33 PM
I can now fully endorse Bernstein's magnificent performance of Symphony No. 4. This may very well be the best performance of this symphony I've ever heard. Anybody who can snatch up a copy of this recording on the used market should definitely do so as soon as possible. There are also some great performances of some RVW chestnuts like Serenade To Music, Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, and Fantasia on Greensleeves. A truly magical disc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 01, 2011, 11:34:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 31, 2010, 03:52:33 PM
I can now fully endorse Bernstein's magnificent performance of Symphony No. 4.

Glad you like it, MI. I owe Bernstein: it was his televised Fourth (part of one of his Young People's Concerts) that made me initially aware of RVW.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2011, 11:37:19 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 01, 2011, 11:34:34 AM
Glad you like it, MI. I owe Bernstein: it was his televised Fourth (part of one of his Young People's Concerts) that made me initially aware of RVW.

Sarge


Me being such a RVW fan and a Bernstein fan, I had to hear what all the fuss was about. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 29, 2011, 11:36:39 PM
the Vee Dubya Pee Cee

I've been listening to the Piano Concerto, on the recently released Naxos recording.

On the one hand, I like it. It's VW in his severe, driving mode, rather like the 4th or 6th Symphonies. As in those symphonies, there are extreme contrasts between driven, even brutal music and very spare, quiet music. It's a dramatically effective and highly concentrated work.

On the other hand, I can see why it hasn't caught on. There's an absence of big tunes, and the ending is strange - it just sort of gradually runs out of energy, then creeps away quietly. I can imagine audiences being puzzled by it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Rinaldo on January 31, 2011, 06:27:15 AM
Can anyone recommend a good modern recording of the Tallis Fantasia? I've got the canonical Barbirolli from 1962 which I worship like a deity, so I feel I don't have to look any further, but I'd like to give recent recordings (if there are any) a fair chance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 31, 2011, 05:54:56 PM
Quote from: Rinaldo on January 31, 2011, 06:27:15 AM
Can anyone recommend a good modern recording of the Tallis Fantasia? I've got the canonical Barbirolli from 1962 which I worship like a deity, so I feel I don't have to look any further, but I'd like to give recent recordings (if there are any) a fair chance.

One of the best Tallis Fantasia performances I've heard is coupled with another one of my favorite performances of RVW's 5th with Andre Previn/RPO:

[asin]B000003CUM[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Rinaldo on January 31, 2011, 11:10:06 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2011, 05:54:56 PM
One of the best Tallis Fantasia performances I've heard is coupled with another one of my favorite performances of RVW's 5th with Andre Previn/RPO:

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I'm planning to explore RVW's symphonies so this looks like a good combo, thanks!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 01, 2011, 10:49:53 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on January 31, 2011, 11:10:06 PM
I'm planning to explore RVW's symphonies so this looks like a good combo, thanks!

You're welcome. Hope you enjoy the music! RVW's symphonies are some of the best written in the 20th Century definitely on par with Shostakovich, Nielsen, and Sibelius.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on February 05, 2011, 02:47:35 PM
Listened to RVW's violin sonata today after I don't know how long. I was amazed at the energy and curious atmosphere of this piece - quite unusual in effect. It reminded me of John Adams violin writing of all things (violin concerto, Road Movies) - the febrilely lyrical melody, endlessly unfolding and whirling around the stave - what Adams calls "hyper melody" in his violin concerto. It's probably not a masterpiece, but well worth a listen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on February 05, 2011, 03:09:00 PM
Quote from: Guido on February 05, 2011, 02:47:35 PM
Listened to RVW's violin sonata today after I don't know how long. I was amazed at the energy and curious atmosphere of this piece - quite unusual in effect. It reminded me of John Adams violin writing of all things (violin concerto, Road Movies) - the febrilely lyrical melody, endlessly unfolding and whirling around the stave - what Adams calls "hyper melody" in his violin concerto. It's probably not a masterpiece, but well worth a listen.

     It's a wonderful piece. What Vaughan Williams seems to be striving for in this work and a number of his late works (postwar, roughly) is a kind of raw eloquence, very different from the easier beauty of his earlier periods, easier for audiences at least, though not necessarily to compose. In fact I think that this work also draws on his mystical period in the '20s and '30s when he composed works that probably are considered his best by most of the critics (Flos Campi, Job, Sancta Civitas, 5th Symphony). For me the late period embraces the folkish and the mysterious, and the violently modern, too. The final triumph was the 9th Symphony. Every time I listen to this work I hear a little more in it of the long path that led to it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on February 05, 2011, 07:02:17 PM
That sonata is possibly the biggest miracle of his output for me - one of his special late pieces that doesn't seem to have been quite as inevitable as the others in its emergence. It's often compared to the second quartet for very logical reasons, but I find it to be the superior work - along with the 9th symphony it is multifaceted and to some degree "unknowable": the basic qualities are clear, as are their influences, but what does it really try to express? It's still somewhat mystical-pastoral, but not as the composer's detractors would recognise. Regardless of all that, it's engaging, thematically strong and wonderfully structured.

For all its positives, it can't help but make me wish RVW concentrated more seriously on chamber music beyond his student years. Also this gives me a chance to ASIN link a recording of it, if people are interested. It's my favourite single RVW disc by quite some margin, and extremely creatively programmed compared to its rivals - it offers a unique "journey" to listen through:

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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 05, 2011, 08:39:36 PM
Quote from: Lethe on February 05, 2011, 07:02:17 PM
That sonata is possibly the biggest miracle of his output for me - one of his special late pieces that doesn't seem to have been quite as inevitable as the others in its emergence. It's often compared to the second quartet for very logical reasons, but I find it to be the superior work - along with the 9th symphony it is multifaceted and to some degree "unknowable": the basic qualities are clear, as are their influences, but what does it really try to express? It's still somewhat mystical-pastoral, but not as the composer's detractors would recognise. Regardless of all that, it's engaging, thematically strong and wonderfully structured.

For all its positives, it can't help but make me wish RVW concentrated more seriously on chamber music beyond his student years. Also this gives me a chance to ASIN link a recording of it, if people are interested. It's my favourite single RVW disc by quite some margin, and extremely creatively programmed compared to its rivals - it offers a unique "journey" to listen through:

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I like the fact that this recording starts off with The Lake in the Mountains which those who are familiar with RVW's output will be taken by surprise and then delight that this is a rarity in his output --- solo piano music. RVW is often criticized for his usage of piano, especially in a work like his Piano Concerto where I'm sure plopping down on the keys with your bottom would be a valid technique ( :P), but I think this particular work shows a very different side to him that we're not used to hearing. By the way, I love the Piano Concerto, so I don't mean to criticize this work at all. He had a particular way of writing for piano that just sounds almost primitive to me, it's very percussive.

Special note: how many times am I going to edit this post? I'm just as bad as Bruckner. Let's see how many times I can revise this post. Oh wait, I just realized in the process of making this special note that it's a revision within itself! Damn....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on February 05, 2011, 09:39:18 PM
His way with the piano is certainly not Chopinesque (and as a result could be considered un-idiomatic, given his poor piano playing), but he seems to have known his way around a keyboard and was increasingly able to write distinctively - albeit rarely - for the instrument. The accompaniment in the violin sonata is very characterful, and the Lake in the Mountains is a surprisingly fine piece which weathers its obvious influences to remain intriguing and well worth listening to more than once.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 05, 2011, 11:58:10 PM
The Lake in the Mountains CD on Hyperion is one of my favourite VW discs too. I love the late craggy style that we find in the Violin Sonata, the Fantasia on the Old 104th for piano, choir and orch. and Symphony No 9. The other great VW chamber work IMHO is the String Quartet No 2 'For Jean on her birthday', with its resonances of Symphony No 6.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Guido on February 06, 2011, 09:25:11 AM
I didn't realise it was so highly valued. Onto the second quartet then!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on April 12, 2011, 04:39:08 PM
Just read in the Cambridge Alumni Magazine that a Mass for soloists, double chorus and orchestra was submitted by Vaughan Williams for his doctoral examination in 1899 and was recently discovered in the University Library by a conductor named Alan Tongue, browsing an exhibit.  It was performed for the first time this March 3. 

Maybe we should have a betting pool, will the first recording be Hyperion or Naxos?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
Time to revive this thread:

I figured I would forward an exchange between Sid and I from the "What are you listening to now?" thread:

Quote from: Sid on May 03, 2011, 07:30:27 PMRVW's 8th was the first symphony I heard by him just over 10 years ago on the radio (they played the Halle under Barbirolli recording). I actually remember the details, which is unusual, but it did strike me as special. I was resting in bed & had the radio on. The first movement struck me as simply "enchanting" (as you say, it's the right word exactly), it was like a fairytale world. I subsequently got it on disc, along with a few of his other symphonies, with the LPO under Boult. This was also unusual, because I purchased very few discs in those years (just a handful a year, if any). I've subsequently moved away from RVW, but I still like the 8th very much, basically because it's short & sweet, a bit of fun, and not too serious at all. The percussive last movement is a bit like Turandot meets the classical pops. It's like the composer was letting his hair down a bit...

I actually enjoy all of RVW's symphonies except the first, which, in my opinion and I hope I don't get blasted by the RVW police for saying this, doesn't have enough musical material for it to be considered a substantial or memorable work. The opening of the first movement to A Sea Symphony always gets my attention, but the rest of the symphony seems to drag on a little too long. The 8th is very special for me as well. I recall not being particularly impressed with on the first or second hearing, but I revisited it after a few years away from it and it is a magical work, and, as you say, a lot of fun. It has many gorgeous moments. The two darker symphonies, the 4th and 6th, have always struck me as interesting works that reveal a very demonic side to a composer who is too often viewed as a composer of "cowpat" music. I'm less and less interested in his more pastoral music, though the 3rd and 5th symphonies are absolutely gorgeous for me and contain some of the most remarkable music to come from his pen. The Lark Ascending despite it's popularity or whatever you want to call is still a favorite of mine. I find the music uplifting and it always gives me a feeling of satisfaction. I know you admire the work Partita for String Orchestra and I can see why you do, it is wonderful. I feel the same way about his Concerto Grosso. I never was too interested in Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis. I found more diversity in the two works for string orchestra I just mentioned. The ballet Job is a fun piece. It has some of those demonic twists like in the 4th and 6th symphonies, but then it was written around the time of the fourth and a time of inner turmoil. I have not heard any of his operas, but I might change this one day. I have enjoyed most of his chamber works. His choral works are also rewarding. I particularly enjoy Five Tudor Portraits, Serenade To Music, Toward The Unknown Region to name a few.

A few questions to all:

1. What was the first RVW composition you heard? Did you enjoy it?

2. What do you think of his symphonies? How do you think they stand up against the symphonies of say Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, or Nielsen?

3. If you had to list some of RVW's weaknesses as composer what would they be? What do you think his strengths are?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on May 03, 2011, 09:31:42 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on February 05, 2011, 09:39:18 PM
His way with the piano is certainly not Chopinesque (and as a result could be considered un-idiomatic, given his poor piano playing), but he seems to have known his way around a keyboard and was increasingly able to write distinctively - albeit rarely - for the instrument. The accompaniment in the violin sonata is very characterful, and the Lake in the Mountains is a surprisingly fine piece which weathers its obvious influences to remain intriguing and well worth listening to more than once.

From Gramophone (April 27th): A recording of a work for piano and orchestra by Ralph Vaughan Williams never previously performed, is to be released later this year.

The single-movement Fantasia, about 25 minutes in length, was begun in 1896, while Vaughan Williams was in his second period as a student at the Royal College of Music. He revised it six years later, and made further refinements in 1904. His widow Ursula Vaughan Williams, however, later removed the piece from circulation, writing 'withdrawn' in red ink on the copied manuscript now held by the British Library.

It is a verdict with which pianist Mark Bebbington, who will record the work next month, disagrees. 'There's such an obvious degree of care and dedication invested in the piece', he says. While admitting that it isn't a 'buried masterpiece', the work does offer an insight into the youthful composer's influences and emerging style – Bebbington cites Franck, Liszt and Scriabin as influences he detected in the work. 'The piece clearly points the way to later works and the genius to come.' Those later works include, for example, the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, which followed in 1910. 'There's a chorale passage in the work that is strikingly reminiscent of the Tallis Fantasia's soundworld' says Bebbington.

'The Fantasia functions like a crucible of styles, which I suspect is why Ursula Vaughan Williams wanted it to be withdrawn,' adds Bebbington. 'She came on the scene long after Ralph had established his clear identity as a composer; I believe the Fantasia represented too much of a stylistic mixture for her. But what else would you expect from a composer in his late 20s, early 30s? He manages the structure so well for a young composer, producing a well honed, virtuoso work for piano and orchestra and something far greater than the sum of its musical ideas. It has the stamp of mature RVW together with exciting elements of his earlier artistic personality that I believe have been unfairly neglected.'

The recording of the Fantasia for Piano and Orchestra – made with the support of the Vaughan Williams Charitable Trust – will takes place next month with the Ulster Orchestra conducted by George Vass, for release by Somm Records in November. The disc will also contain another world premiere recording, William Mathias' Piano Concerto No 1, together with the Welsh composer's Piano Concerto No 2.

Also of great interest is a world premiere recording of the 1899 setting for soprano, chorus and orchestra of Swinburne's The Garden of Proserpine. This 24-minute work is performed by a strong line-up including the Joyful Company of Singers and the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra conducted by Paul Daniel, and the main coupling is the cantata Fen and Flood (1955) by Patrick Hadley - http://www.albionrecords.org/cddetail.php?CN=ALBCD012 (http://www.albionrecords.org/cddetail.php?CN=ALBCD012)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: snyprrr on May 03, 2011, 09:41:59 PM
I'm really fond of the Menuhin/Virgin disc of Symphony No.5 and the 2Piano Concerto.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on May 03, 2011, 09:44:14 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
A few questions to all:

1. What was the first RVW composition you heard? Did you enjoy it?

2. What do you think of his symphonies? How do you think they stand up against the symphonies of say Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, or Nielsen?

3. If you had to list some of RVW's weaknesses as composer what would they be? What do you think his strengths are?

Hey MI, I'll play.  :)

1.  The first work I heard of RVW was Symphony No. 6, conducted by Andrew Davis.  I immediately fell in love with the piece, and I think it is still my favorite of his symphonies.

2.  Haven't listened to all the symphonies enough to make a comment on comparing them to the composers you mention above.

3.  Not sure what his strenghts and weaknesses are.  I can only comment that I have enjoyed most of what I have heard so far.  By the way, I really love Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, but not so much a fan of The Lark Ascending. Job:  A Masque for Dancing is also a personal favorite, along with most of the symphonies.  I really, really love the Maggini Quartet on Naxos and their performances of RVW's string quartets and the fantastic Phantasy Quintet.

On the negative side, the only two works of RVW that I really cannot stomach are his Violin Sonata (personally the worst violin sonata of any composer I have heard so far), and Symphony No. 1:  A Sea Symphony (personally my least favorite work perhaps of all time).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Luke on May 04, 2011, 01:11:44 AM
The Sea Symphony hating never really makes sense to me - it's a piece which, for all its flaws, contains more than the germ of what is to become mature Vaughan Williams, especially in the slow movement. Meanwhile, the open and closing paragraphs of the first movement are just superb, the scherzo is perfectly realised, and the finale, though also flawed, shows real ambition. It is certainly not a perfect work, and far from my favourite VW, but I don't get why it seems to offend some people so much!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 04, 2011, 01:55:02 AM
I too find the 1st pretty dense in content and with a unique tone - I'd vote it as the most successful fully choral symphony I have heard. But meh :)

The 8th I find has a brother in Beethoven's own one, they occupy the same place in the chronology - something of a step-back in ambition after a sequence of important works, and as a result utterly enchanting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2011, 03:56:24 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
A few questions to all:

1. What was the first RVW composition you heard? Did you enjoy it?

2. What do you think of his symphonies? How do you think they stand up against the symphonies of say Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, or Nielsen?

First Vaughan Williams I heard was the Fourth Symphony--twice within a short time. Bernstein played and discussed the fourth movement during a televised Young People's concert in the fall of 1965 (I was 16). Then somewhat later I heard a WCLV Cleveland radio broadcast of the complete symphony (while sitting in a car, munching on a hamburger in the parking lot of the recently opened McDonald's in Barberton Ohio). After that I tried to buy a recording but could only find the Barbirolli/Hallé Eighth coupled with the Enigma. (Pickin's were slim in my corner of northeastern Ohio.) That was my first classical purchase. Several years would pass before I finally found Lenny's Fourth in a shop.

I don't rate works (I'm neither qualified nor do I see any point). Like the symphonies of the composers you mention, I love all Ralph's symphonies...now. Oddly enough, it was his most popular symphony, the Fifth, that eluded me for decades.


Quote from: snyprrr on May 03, 2011, 09:41:59 PM
I'm really fond of the Menuhin/Virgin disc of Symphony No.5 and the 2Piano Concerto.

That's the version of the Fifth that finally opened up that work for me.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2011, 04:01:15 AM
Quote from: Luke on May 04, 2011, 01:11:44 AM
The Sea Symphony hating never really makes sense to me - it's a piece which, for all its flaws, contains more than the germ of what is to become mature Vaughan Williams, especially in the slow movement. Meanwhile, the open and closing paragraphs of the first movement are just superb, the scherzo is perfectly realised, and the finale, though also flawed, shows real ambition. It is certainly not a perfect work, and far from my favourite VW, but I don't get why it seems to offend some people so much!

As I've pointed out many times in this forum, I think the fact that it's a vocal, specifically a choral work, that turns off many. I don't think it's a coincidence that the least favorite Mahler symphony, even among many of his fanboys, is the Eighth. And many too blast the most famous Ninth for having that "weak" ending  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2011, 04:50:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
A few questions to all:

1. What was the first RVW composition you heard? Did you enjoy it?

That would be his hymn-tunes in the English Hymnal ("King's Weston," "Sine Nomine," e.g.).  Certainly I enjoyed it; very good to sing, beautifully suited to the purpose.

Quote from: Mirror Image2. What do you think of his symphonies? How do you think they stand up against the symphonies of say Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, or Nielsen?

Wait, don't we agree that music isn't a horse race? ; )  I enjoy and think well of all nine of RVW's symphonies.

Quote from: Mirror Image3. If you had to list some of RVW's weaknesses as composer what would they be? What do you think his strengths are?

What are we really saying (i.e., what does it mean about our own experience of the music) when we suggest that this or that composer (I mean, apart from a genuine mediocrity) has weaknesses?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2011, 04:51:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2011, 04:01:15 AM
As I've pointed out many times in this forum, I think the fact that it's a vocal, specifically a chorale work, that turns off many. I don't think it's a coincidence that the least favorite Mahler symphony, even among many of his fanboys, is the Eighth. And many too blast the most famous Ninth for having that "weak" ending  ;D

Thanks, Sarge, for pointing out that the negativity towards A Sea Symphony is not due to any property of the piece itself.  A great, great piece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2011, 05:12:29 AM
Not quite the first I heard, but well before I had listened to any of the symphonies, was the Tallis Fantasia, which enchanted me straight off.  Later, I found the source hymn-tune (in the English Hymnal which RVW had edited . . . well, must have been the edition immediately subsequent to that which he oversaw) and wrote my own piece (a modest clarinet-&-organ affair), so you see what a potent seed the RVW 'original' had planted in me.

The symphonies did not grab me right away, but I consider that this is entirely a matter of where my ears (and my musical priorities) were at the time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 04, 2011, 05:49:17 AM
I envy your memories, I can rarely recall such first experiences. For once, however, I can remember my one with RVW, as it began so stupidly :P

I picked up the Decca clamshell box reissue of Boult's mono cycle in a second hand store, and when examining the CD sleeves, the way the contents were formatted led me to believe that the titled symphonies were actually the titles for the numbered symphonies that they were coupled with on disc, so for example, the disc with nos. 2 and 9 on meant that the 9th occupied an entire disc and bore the title "London Symphony". It took the realisation that the set would only contain half the cycle if this was the case, prompting me to look a bit closer to find out what the situation actually was (this was prior to Wikipedia being my default port of call when looking up a new composer's output). An entire symphony per disc didn't seem unreasonable to me at the time due to a Bruckner obsession I was experiencing at the time.

After that mistake, from the initial fanfare of the first symphony I was increasingly hooked. I wasn't keen on the London symphony initially* (I was put off my the substantial dynamic contrasts the piece was written to include, especially in the introduction to the first movement), and by the time I heard the 5th and 6th, the composer had become one of my favourites.

*But since the Hickox recording of the original version it is now one of my favourites.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on May 04, 2011, 06:01:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
1. What was the first RVW composition you heard? Did you enjoy it?
I think it was the Tallis Fantasia. It always struck me as one of the highlights of the English string repertoire.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
2. What do you think of his symphonies? How do you think they stand up against the symphonies of say Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, or Nielsen?
I'm rather lukewarm on the first two, but the rest I enjoy (I do feel 7 has a bit less for me than the rest). 6 was the one that spoke to me most strongly at first, then 3 and 4 opened up. The 5th is the one I've grown to appreciate most recently. My favourite would be one of 3, 4 and 6; probably 3, which I find a deeply disturbing work (I feel there's something very unpleasant hiding behind those pastoral colours).

To my mind, comparing them to the other symphonists mentioned there isn't really relevant. RVW's symphonies are symphonic, but their rhetoric and argument is very different.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
3. If you had to list some of RVW's weaknesses as composer what would they be? What do you think his strengths are?
Pat answer, but essentially, he's RVW. That is both his strength and (if any do exist) his weakness.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 04, 2011, 06:40:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
1. What was the first RVW composition you heard? Did you enjoy it?

2. What do you think of his symphonies? How do you think they stand up against the symphonies of say Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, or Nielsen?

3. If you had to list some of RVW's weaknesses as composer what would they be? What do you think his strengths are?

1. Tallis Fantasia. I liked it immediately. At the time I was starting to dig Bruckner, and it produced the same mystical vibe as the Bruckner symphonies.

2. The middle trilogy of symphonies (4-5-6) rank among the great 20th century symphonies. I put #4 at the top. Outside of those 3 I like the whimsical 8th the most. The 9th I still can't figure out.

3. Weakness: tendency to ramble, and an occasional cryptic quality that leaves me confused (examples: 9th Symphony; the odd "running out of fuel" ending to the Piano Concerto). Strengths: range of expression (none of the 9 symphonies is like any other); a strong visionary or radiant quality; can produce an airtight structure when he wants to (4th Symphony).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on May 04, 2011, 07:02:09 AM
My favorites are the Antartica Symphony and Lark Ascending.  The Sea Symphony was the first work I heard.  Greatest weakness: he is the posterchild for British neoromanticism without the unique style of Elgar.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 04, 2011, 07:23:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
1. What was the first RVW composition you heard? Did you enjoy it?


I suddenly remember that my first encounter with anything by RVW was through the radio. I must have been 16 at the time. I was just searching for a classical music station on the medium wave band and suddenly could hear - vaguely and with a hiss as if from a thousand snakes - the signal of BBC Radio Three (remember, I live in the Netherlands). I could make out some music... I liked it. When it ended I strained my ears to hear which composer it had been and what piece - Vaughan Williams, Eighth Symphony...



When I joined the Amsterdam Public Library, with its great music collection, I borrowed books about RVW and the big box with all of his symphonies under Boult. The works that spoke to me at once were 2, 3, 4, 6 and 8. And they have remained my core. I'm sorry to say I have never explored the Sea Symphony. I don't know why. A lacuna I must eliminate one of these days, as it's a shame. No. 5 took me decades to appreciate, just like Sarge. Nos 7 and 9 have never figured as strongly, but I do like them.


Quote2. What do you think of his symphonies? How do you think they stand up against the symphonies of say Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, or Nielsen?


I think RVW's cycle is just as sui generis as those by the composers you mention. I would be poorer without them.

Quote3. If you had to list some of RVW's weaknesses as composer what would they be? What do you think his strengths are?


With any (great) artist a weakness is the obverse of strength. 'Anton, don't modulate so much!' 'Stiff upper lip, Gustav!'
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2011, 07:57:37 AM
Quote1. What was the first RVW composition you heard? Did you enjoy it?

The first work I heard by RVW was The Lark Ascending on an old Neville Marriner/ASMF recording I have and still own. The music was beautiful, in fact, this work is still a favorite of mine. After I heard this work, I took a chance on his symphonies having never heard a note of any of them. My first symphony set was the Adrian Boult on EMI. This set is still a favorite of mine. Now, that I have much listening to a lot of different composers under my belt, I have to say that my favorite symphonies are: 2-6 and 8, but I enjoy them all even the Sea Symphony, which I blasted earlier as being weak on material. After the symphonies, I explored everything I could.

Quote2. What do you think of his symphonies? How do you think they stand up against the symphonies of say Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, or Nielsen?

I think his symphonies are some of the most creative and inspiring of the entire 20th Century. I would say RVW has his own distinctive voice just like Mahler and Sibelius, so, naturally, they stand their own ground quite well. :)

Quote3. If you had to list some of RVW's weaknesses as composer what would they be? What do you think his strengths are?

He didn't compose a lot of piano music, which I find odd, because of the works I've heard he wasn't a slouch on the piano, but this could very well be his only weakness. I would say his greatest musical strengths are his confidence in the musical material and the ability to communicate this material in such an unbelievable way that it never fails to leave me mesmerized.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2011, 08:01:11 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2011, 07:57:37 AM
He didn't compose a lot of piano music, which I find odd, because of the works I've heard he wasn't a slouch on the piano, but this could very well be his only weakness.

Why is not composing a lot of piano music, a weakness?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2011, 08:04:12 AM
Quote from: Apollon on May 04, 2011, 08:01:11 AM
Why is not composing a lot of piano music, a weakness?

I guess it's not a weakness, but I would loved to have heard more.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 04, 2011, 08:06:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2011, 07:57:37 AM
He didn't compose a lot of piano music, which I find odd, because of the works I've heard he wasn't a slouch on the piano, but this could very well be his only weakness.


I don't consider not excelling in a certain form a weakness. I don't mind Chopin not composing all those string quartets nor Bruckner not creating all those lovely songs. Perhaps a composer without (apparent) limitations can compose masterly music for any medium. But even Beethoven could only finish one opera, and only after much difficulty.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on May 04, 2011, 07:44:09 PM
My first conscious encounter with RVW was the piano concerto on the Piers Lane CD with Delius and Finzi. I thought, and still do, that the Delius was a better piece (though I'm not Delius fan). Later, I think I decided to explore him, not really knowing what to expect, and picked up the Naxos disc with symphonies 7 and 8. After this, I bought the Previn set and delved into it one hot summer. It was too much to take in at one go - a new (to me) language, and many different moods and flavours. That might be one of his strength/weaknesses, that you can't tell what you are going to get from one work to the next.

I rank him highly as a symphonist, but think he definitely improved as he went along. The first two are perhaps excessively Edwardian. The third was the breakthrough, with folk cadences and ancient modes fully imbibed and naturally expressed as part of his personality. I think he kept improving after that; I regret he only became a regular symphonist in his old age.

I'm not a fan of the 1st, though it's possible I haven't found the right performance yet. I don't really enjoy the way he writes for voice. I also have an aversion to Whitman; I understand that he was very important at the time, but I find his stuff too cheesy.

I love the 8th, and think it's usually tossed off too fast, so that it's dwarfed by all except perhaps the 3rd. That's why the Thomson is my go-to recording. He makes it sound grand, a work to be taken seriously in its own right, and not merely an amusing sidebar to the cycle. (I enjoy Previn in the 9th for similar reasons. I wish RVW had lived to "fix" the finale.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on May 04, 2011, 08:12:30 PM
     Here's an early work, the Piano Quintet, from 1903 (1st mvmt.):

     http://www.youtube.com/v/91k78yYxYZA

     The last 3 min. of the 1st movement is part 2:

     http://www.youtube.com/v/4PGd_akQSCw&NR=1
     

     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2011, 08:22:49 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 04, 2011, 07:44:09 PM
My first conscious encounter with RVW was the piano concerto on the Piers Lane CD with Delius and Finzi. I thought, and still do, that the Delius was a better piece (though I'm not Delius fan). Later, I think I decided to explore him, not really knowing what to expect, and picked up the Naxos disc with symphonies 7 and 8. After this, I bought the Previn set and delved into it one hot summer. It was too much to take in at one go - a new (to me) language, and many different moods and flavours. That might be one of his strength/weaknesses, that you can't tell what you are going to get from one work to the next.

I think not knowing what to expect from one work to the next is one of his strengths. Even after all this time, I'm still surprised when I hear his symphonies, especially played one after the other, which I did last night and tonight. :) For me, his music is constant discovery. I might pick up on a certain phrase one time around, but another time around I might pick up something completely different. I just always hear something new in his music. He was a fascinating man, but very enigmatic, which only adds to the mystery that his music seems to project. There's a book published by Oxford Press that details his life in depth. I'm planning on picking up this book at some point. In fact, I plan to do this with all of the composers I love at some point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on May 04, 2011, 08:51:31 PM
     Only recently have I explored the 3rd Symphony in depth, and now I rank it among my favorite RVW symphonies (not an exclusive group, to be sure, since only No. 2 has never been in it).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sid on May 05, 2011, 02:19:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:48:10 PM

1. What was the first RVW composition you heard? Did you enjoy it?




A music teacher played us the Fantasia on Greensleeves in my first year of high school. It didn't really make an impression on me, because I recognised it as the theme from "Lassie," which I thought was boring. I also saw RVW's Hymn tune on the old hundredth in a concert, but it didn't push any buttons either.

10 years after that, I heard the 8th symphony on radio & also saw some films on TV to which RVW composed the scores - The 49th Parallel & Scott of the Antarctic. These I liked quite a lot, & I ended up purchasing some of RVW's symphonies conducted by Boult on the now defunct Belart label. This was a matter of hitting two birds with the one stone, because it's hard for me to tell whether I liked RVW's music or Boult's conducting more. Boult may as well conduct Twinkle twinkle little star, and I'd probably still be enthralled & captivated.
Quote
2. What do you think of his symphonies? How do you think they stand up against the symphonies of say Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, or Nielsen?

I've heard all of RVW's symphonies except the 1st. I don't really think any of them quite reach the giddy heights or plumb the depths as those you mentioned. My impression is that he tended more towards the middle range, there are less extreme highs and lows in his music. But it's hard to compare UK composers with Continental European ones, because in between the times of Purcell and Elgar, the UK was called "the land without music." Instrumental music at least, because the choral tradition was always strong in the UK. The Brits, RVW being no exception, have always been largely derivative from things going on in Europe in particular, and a bit more conservative. But comparisons aside, UK composers add to the mix of what is on offer in classical, as do say USA, Japanese or Australian composers. Their histories of classical music are all very different, so it's difficult to compare them with any usefulness to eachother. We simply have to take them on their own terms.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sid on May 05, 2011, 02:26:27 AM
I've been having problems with this computer, but I hope I can quickly discuss some of RVW's strengths -

1) Bringing harmonies into the concert hall that had lain "dormant" in the church choirs for centuries - eg. Tallis Fantasia. RVW edited the British hymnal.

2) Works for string orchestra are top-notch & pass the baton over from Elgar to Britten, Tippett, etc.

3) His humanity & humility. Eg. standing up for Tippett, who was sent to jail briefly for being a pacifist during WW2. Not accepting a knighthood, not wanting to be a part of "The Establishment," seeing himself as just an ordinairy person...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 05, 2011, 05:30:24 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2011, 08:22:49 PM
There's a book published by Oxford Press that details his life in depth. I'm planning on picking up this book at some point.

I have my eye on this one (http://www.toccatapress.com/book/vaughan-williams-symphony-pike.html) too...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2011, 05:40:46 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 05, 2011, 05:30:24 AM
I have my eye on this one (http://www.toccatapress.com/book/vaughan-williams-symphony-pike.html) too...


Recommended unread... I read his book Profound Logic about Beethoven and Sibelius, and an essay about Brian in the HBS Newsletter, both excellent.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 07:34:32 AM
Here's the RVW book I'm considering...

[asin]0192820826[/asin]

But Lethe, that book you recommended looks rather tempting as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 07:39:29 AM
Quote from: Sid on May 05, 2011, 02:19:20 AMIt's hard for me to tell whether I liked RVW's music or Boult's conducting more. Boult may as well conduct Twinkle twinkle little star, and I'd probably still be enthralled & captivated.

Surely you like RVW's music as there have been many excellent cycles of of his symphonies recorded after Boult's. Bryden Thomson's on Chandos has proved to be my to-go-to recordings for the symphonies and the concertos as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2011, 07:45:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
Time to revive this thread:

I figured I would forward an exchange between Sid and I from the "What are you listening to now?" thread:

I actually enjoy all of RVW's symphonies except the first, which, in my opinion and I hope I don't get blasted by the RVW police for saying this, doesn't have enough musical material for it to be considered a substantial or memorable work. The opening of the first movement to A Sea Symphony always gets my attention, but the rest of the symphony seems to drag on a little too long. The 8th is very special for me as well. I recall not being particularly impressed with on the first or second hearing, but I revisited it after a few years away from it and it is a magical work, and, as you say, a lot of fun. It has many gorgeous moments. The two darker symphonies, the 4th and 6th, have always struck me as interesting works that reveal a very demonic side to a composer who is too often viewed as a composer of "cowpat" music. I'm less and less interested in his more pastoral music, though the 3rd and 5th symphonies are absolutely gorgeous for me and contain some of the most remarkable music to come from his pen. The Lark Ascending despite it's popularity or whatever you want to call is still a favorite of mine. I find the music uplifting and it always gives me a feeling of satisfaction. I know you admire the work Partita for String Orchestra and I can see why you do, it is wonderful. I feel the same way about his Concerto Grosso. I never was too interested in Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis. I found more diversity in the two works for string orchestra I just mentioned. The ballet Job is a fun piece. It has some of those demonic twists like in the 4th and 6th symphonies, but then it was written around the time of the fourth and a time of inner turmoil. I have not heard any of his operas, but I might change this one day. I have enjoyed most of his chamber works. His choral works are also rewarding. I particularly enjoy Five Tudor Portraits, Serenade To Music, Toward The Unknown Region to name a few.

A few questions to all:

1. What was the first RVW composition you heard? Did you enjoy it?

2. What do you think of his symphonies? How do you think they stand up against the symphonies of say Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, or Nielsen?

3. If you had to list some of RVW's weaknesses as composer what would they be? What do you think his strengths are?

1. The Tallis Fantasia, English Folksong Suite and Greensleeves performed by Morton Gould and his Orchestra on an RCA LP. As a 16/17 year old I quite enjoyed them and it made me want to listen to more. When I purchased a Decca Eclipse LP of Symphony No 6 (Boult, LPO) shortly afterwards I was won over forever.

2. I especially like the 1913 version of A London Symphony (the best bit, just towards the end, Vaughan Williams later excised from the score  :o) I think that the greatest symphonies are 5 and 6 although I find No 9 very moving in its grim defiance.  Difficult to compare with Mahler or Bruckner as they are so different (having said that there is a section in Bruckner's 9th Symphony which reminded me of the Tallis Fantasia!) I would certainly rate him alongside Nielsen and I like all the VW symphonies and only nos 4-6 of Nielsen.  Sibelius was greater I think (Tapiola and Symphony No 4 being in a class of their own), although I personally would not disagree with VW being placed alongside him.

3. I was listening to an old interview with the conductor Vernon Handley (a CD included in his boxed set of the Bax symphonies) and he felt that Bax was the better composers of tunes (and their development) but that VW's strength lay in the 'placing' of the musical material.  I think that Bax's scores (Symphony No 2 for example) are more personal but that the oddly impersonal quality of much of VW's music is also appealing.  I also admire the fact that VW kept going for so long and responded (in his eighties) to the description of himself as 'The Grand Old Man of British Music' by saying that he was 'neither grand nor old'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 07:46:11 AM
Quote from: Sid on May 05, 2011, 02:26:27 AM3) His humanity & humility. Eg. standing up for Tippett, who was sent to jail briefly for being a pacifist during WW2. Not accepting a knighthood, not wanting to be a part of "The Establishment," seeing himself as just an ordinairy person...

This is perhaps one of his greatest strengths, Sid. The year 1934 was an troubling one for RVW as Holst, Delius, and Elgar died, which blasted him into the spotlight, which RVW wanted no part of. I admire his persistence in trying to maintain a normal life and keeping in touch with ordinary people, which, in turn, gave him a likable, more down-to-Earth outlook.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2011, 07:49:24 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 07:34:32 AM
Here's the RVW book I'm considering...

[asin]0192820826[/asin]

But Lethe, that book you recommended looks rather tempting as well.

The UVW biography is fine but a little bit of a 'desk diary' of what the composer did and needs to be read in Michael Kennedy's book on 'The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams'. There is a short biography by Simon Hepher which is ok as an introduction but no more than that.  We badly need a new biography which included the more controversial material made available since the death of Ursula Vaughan Williams.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 07:56:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2011, 07:45:36 AM3. I was listening to an old interview with the conductor Vernon Handley (a CD included in his boxed set of the Bax symphonies) and he felt that Bax was the better composers of tunes (and their development) but that VW's strength lay in the 'placing' of the musical material.  I think that Bax's scores (Symphony No 2 for example) are more personal but that the oddly impersonal quality of much of VW's music is also appealing.  I also admire the fact that VW kept going for so long and responded (in his eighties) to the description of himself as 'The Grand Old Man of British Music' by saying that he was 'neither grand nor old'.

As time progresses, I'm becoming less and less impressed with Bax's symphonies. Don't get me wrong he was an exquisite craftsman and did, in fact, compose many interesting compositions. But while you consider Bax's symphonies more personal, I find them incredibly impersonal. I don't think I've even remembered one of Bax's symphonies and I can't even think of one that I think is personally memorable to me. They simply don't stick in my mind like RVW, Sibelius, Mahler, Sibelius, Nielsen, or Bruckner. This doesn't mean they're not worth listening to and appreciating, but this simply means that I don't get much out of them like many Baxians here do.

As far as Handley's opinion, I think it's purely subjective as with anything. To say Bax wrote better tunes doesn't really mean that much to me as I was walking down the street many months ago and suddenly I was reciting last movement from A Pastoral Symphony in my head and humming one of the big tunes that occurs towards the end of that movement. Somebody looked at me as if I was a mental patient. :) I think RVW wrote better tunes as I remember them more readily than anything Bax composed, which may not mean much, but I think it puts lie to the fact that Bax wrote the better tunes.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 07:58:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2011, 07:49:24 AM
The UVW biography is fine but a little bit of a 'desk diary' of what the composer did and needs to be read in Michael Kennedy's book on 'The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams'. There is a short biography by Simon Hepher which is ok as an introduction but no more than that.  We badly need a new biography which included the more controversial material made available since the death of Ursula Vaughan Williams.

Thanks, I'll checkout Kennedy's book, which Lethe suggested as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2011, 08:53:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 07:56:13 AM
As time progresses, I'm becoming less and less impressed with Bax's symphonies. Don't get me wrong he was an exquisite craftsman and did, in fact, compose many interesting compositions. But while you consider Bax's symphonies more personal, I find them incredibly impersonal. I don't think I've even remembered one of Bax's symphonies and I can't even think of one that I think is personally memorable to me. They simply don't stick in my mind like RVW, Sibelius, Mahler, Sibelius, Nielsen, or Bruckner. This doesn't mean they're not worth listening to and appreciating, but this simply means that I don't get much out of them like many Baxians here do.

As far as Handley's opinion, I think it's purely subjective as with anything. To say Bax wrote better tunes doesn't really mean that much to me as I was walking down the street many months ago and suddenly I was reciting last movement from A Pastoral Symphony in my head and humming one of the big tunes that occurs towards the end of that movement. Somebody looked at me as if I was a mental patient. :) I think RVW wrote better tunes as I remember them more readily than anything Bax composed, which may not mean much, but I think it puts lie to the fact that Bax wrote the better tunes.


RVW is a very earthy visionary. Bax is an arch-Romantic, with all the atmosphere and (abstracted) emotionality that entails; though strangely enough, in his case it is as if he writes everything in the third person. I do remember several of his symphonies and tone-poems, though, especially 1 and 3, Tintagel and The Happy Forest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Luke on May 05, 2011, 09:51:07 AM
As far as RVW writing goes, I continue to staunchly recommend Wilfrid Mellers' book - VW and the Vision of Albion. It gets slated now and then by those who don't like Mellers style; personally I think you just have to learn to 'go with' Mellers and all of a sudden he is showing you things which are utterly, dumbfoundingly revelatory. A huge proportion of the music writing that has influenced me most is by either Charles Rosen or Mellers, great musical thinkers both. Whole swathes of their work totally rewrote the way I understand music, and the VW book is, IMO, among the best things Mellers did. (It's odd, btw, because I strongly suspect Rosen would detest Mellers' thinking, but personally I don't have any problem combining the two)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 05, 2011, 11:34:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2011, 07:45:36 AM
I was listening to an old interview with the conductor Vernon Handley (a CD included in his boxed set of the Bax symphonies) and he felt that Bax was the better composers of tunes (and their development) but that VW's strength lay in the 'placing' of the musical material.

I was about to dispute this until I realised that it was correct ::)

My logic was "I don't remember Bax's tunes, I do remember RVW's tunes, and a heck of a lot of them too", but that leads to his second part of his observation. VW quite calculatingly spreads them around for maximum effect (such as the two competing themes of the 1st movement of the sixth symphony), whereas Bax's style is too dense and constantly evolving in a Wagnerian/Delian manner to 'sign-post' sections in such a way. I would place them about equally as melodists.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2011, 07:45:36 AM
I think that Bax's scores (Symphony No 2 for example) are more personal but that the oddly impersonal quality of much of VW's music is also appealing.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 07:56:13 AM
But while you consider Bax's symphonies more personal, I find them incredibly impersonal. I don't think I've even remembered one of Bax's symphonies and I can't even think of one that I think is personally memorable to me.

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2011, 08:53:36 AM
RVW is a very earthy visionary. Bax is an arch-Romantic, with all the atmosphere and (abstracted) emotionality that entails; though strangely enough, in his case it is as if he writes everything in the third person. I do remember several of his symphonies and tone-poems, though, especially 1 and 3, Tintagel and The Happy Forest.

It is boring of me, but I once again would call a "draw" on this, like Johan. Bax's style is at both Romantic and yet evasive, as exemplified in his choices of subject matter and his somewhat artificial - or distanced - manner of writing his pieces in which he explores byways, reveals pinnacles, but seems to struggle to attain the mastery of discipline fused with concept to entirely make sense of it. I get a sense that his is a style that waited for a white hot moment, and he sought it out in many places, but never quite found it.

RVW may be the opposite. He has perfect 'vision' (to pinch a word) to provide a lucidity, balance and rightness to everything, but it is lacking that devil may care ardor of Bax which could truly make it "personal" music. The frigid beauty of the fifth symphony I find slightly glassy, mask-like, and I don't think that it's a coincidence that this symphony - his most overtly religious in concept - is the work which offers this observation to me most readily. The composer's personality seems not to have felt the need to write music to represent himself or his feelings, but rather to harness both his and the listener's wider interests for that means of connection.

(It was unbelievably difficult to try to write something after the first two sentences of the last paragraph - it is certainly explainable, but I just can't at the moment.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sid on May 05, 2011, 06:47:31 PM
I'm also one of those listeners who has connected more with RVW (or any other UK composer for that matter) than with Bax.

I agree that there is a "sameness" in Bax's symphonies, especially compared to the more eclectic approach of RVW. Having said that, Bax probably has more stylistic (& maybe even thematic?) cohesion and unity in his symphonies, generally speaking. It might also be useful to see Bax's symphonies as all comprising one big work (rather than seperate works in themselves), they're like a collective journey. That's not a bad thing, because the greatest composers also did this, eg. Vivaldi's violin concertos making up "The Four Seasons," Beethoven's late string quartets, Wagner's Ring cycle of operas are all basically bundles comprising one big work as a group. Most listeners tend to be familiar with all of these works rather than just one, & I personally also see them as being inseperable from eachother (although I've only seen one opera of Wagner's Ring cycle on DVD, but I'm no huge opera fan, so maybe I can be excused?). On the other hand, RVW's symphonies contrast more with eachother and are basically self-contained creations. They have little more to do with eachother except that they all came from the pen of the same composer. RVW was a true synthesist and eclectic...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on May 05, 2011, 06:53:55 PM
Do you know, I'm thinking about that 30-cd box, even though it would duplicate my Handley symphonies set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sid on May 05, 2011, 06:55:24 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 07:46:11 AM
This is perhaps one of his greatest strengths, Sid. The year 1934 was an troubling one for RVW as Holst, Delius, and Elgar died, which blasted him into the spotlight, which RVW wanted no part of. I admire his persistence in trying to maintain a normal life and keeping in touch with ordinary people, which, in turn, gave him a likable, more down-to-Earth outlook.

Yes, I read that he was always ready and willing to help people in the community who were less fortunate than himself. He reminds me of Elvis Presley & Louis Armstrong in this regard (& it's truly not a facetious comment/comparison). RVW was nothing if not human, and I think this informed his musical style. There is little or no bombast or pomposity there. What you hear is basically what you get. He may well be less sophisticated than some other composers, but his music tends to come from (& speak quite directly to) the heart. He wasn't interested in glorifying the British Empire in any way, and in any case it was curtains for that by the time he reached old age. Music was simply a way for him to express himself and connect with his listeners, he wasn't in it for glory or influence.

I also have a short speech by the composer as a bonus track on one of those LPO/Boult discs, recorded at the actual recording sessions in the 1950's where he was present. RVW talks about his enjoyment of the orchestra's performance of his 6th symphony, particularly the finale "epilogue." He says something to the effect that "your playing was so good, at times it uncovered some of my faults." What a humble artist he was (I doubt someone with a huge ego like Wagner would have said this kind of thing)...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 06:57:47 PM
Quote from: Sid on May 05, 2011, 06:47:31 PM
I'm also one of those listeners who has connected more with RVW (or any other UK composer for that matter) than with Bax.

I agree that there is a "sameness" in Bax's symphonies, especially compared to the more eclectic approach of RVW. Having said that, Bax probably has more stylistic (& maybe even thematic?) cohesion and unity in his symphonies, generally speaking. It might also be useful to see Bax's symphonies as all comprising one big work (rather than seperate works in themselves), they're like a collective journey. That's not a bad thing, because the greatest composers also did this, eg. Vivaldi's violin concertos making up "The Four Seasons," Beethoven's late string quartets, Wagner's Ring cycle of operas are all basically bundles comprising one big work as a group. Most listeners tend to be familiar with all of these works rather than just one, & I personally also see them as being inseperable from eachother (although I've only seen one opera of Wagner's Ring cycle on DVD, but I'm no huge opera fan, so maybe I can be excused?). On the other hand, RVW's symphonies contrast more with eachother and are basically self-contained creations. They have little more to do with each other except that they all came from the pen of the same composer. RVW was a true synthesist and eclectic...

Well said, Sid. I don't know what it is, but I just don't connect with Bax, although I will say this his chamber works are fantastic. For me, he seems to let his "hair down" so to speak in these works. I'm not sure if it's uploaded on YouTube or not but his In Memoriam for cor anglais, harp, and string quartet is definitely a work to check. I find this piece deeply moving. So, in closing, I find his orchestral music impersonal, but his chamber music feels like the work of somebody bearing their heart to the listener.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 07:04:18 PM
Quote from: Sid on May 05, 2011, 06:55:24 PM
Yes, I read that he was always ready and willing to help people in the community who were less fortunate than himself. He reminds me of Elvis Presley & Louis Armstrong in this regard (& it's truly not a facetious comment/comparison). RVW was nothing if not human, and I think this informed his musical style. There is little or no bombast or pomposity there. What you hear is basically what you get. He may well be less sophisticated than some other composers, but his music tends to come from (& speak quite directly to) the heart. He wasn't interested in glorifying the British Empire in any way, and in any case it was curtains for that by the time he reached old age. Music was simply a way for him to express himself and connect with his listeners, he wasn't in it for glory or influence.

I also have a short speech by the composer as a bonus track on one of those LPO/Boult discs, recorded at the actual recording sessions in the 1950's where he was present. RVW talks about his enjoyment of the orchestra's performance of his 6th symphony, particularly the finale "epilogue." He says something to the effect that "your playing was so good, at times it uncovered some of my faults." What a humble artist he was (I doubt someone with a huge ego like Wagner would have said this kind of thing)...

Well written and so true. I heartily agree.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 08:26:42 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 05, 2011, 06:53:55 PM
Do you know, I'm thinking about that 30-cd box, even though it would duplicate my Handley symphonies set.

What set is that?

Re all this anti-Bax talk, I like Bax, but his meandering structures work against engaging with his symphonies, whereas RVW had a better grasp on the rhetorical approach that carries you along and makes everything seem to fit together neatly as a piece. So Bax's tone poems are more successful in this respect, being on a smaller scale.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 08:56:55 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 08:26:42 PMRe all this anti-Bax talk, I like Bax, but his meandering structures work against engaging with his symphonies, whereas RVW had a better grasp on the rhetorical approach that carries you along and makes everything seem to fit together neatly as a piece. So Bax's tone poems are more successful in this respect, being on a smaller scale.

It's not that I dislike Bax's music. I think you have misunderstood me. I simply can't recall anything in his symphonies that stand out to me. It's like a huge wash of sound, but nothing is remotely coming through and hitting me. As I said, I like his chamber music a lot. There are a few Bax orchestral works that I enjoy most notably Spring Fire, which is basically a symphony in all but a name, but the themes and structure hold together quite well and I always seem to remember that first movement, especially the opening, so textural. It's quite Debussyian in some respects, but Bax's influences were never not apparent.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 09:33:05 PM
You can't even remember the opening of Bax's 6th?

Which sadly I can't rate as highly as others do. After a strong beginning, it sort of trails away into the unmemorability you referred to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 05, 2011, 09:49:34 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 09:33:05 PM
You can't even remember the opening of Bax's 6th?

Which sadly I can't rate as highly as others do. After a strong beginning, it sort of trails away into the unmemorability you referred to.

Nope, don't even remember it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: springrite on May 05, 2011, 10:22:10 PM
Bax reminds me of myself in my 20's.

RVW reminds me of myself in my early teens and in my 40's onwards.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 06, 2011, 12:21:53 AM
Interesting views. Vernon Handley also said that, despite Vaughan Williams's professed agnosticism, his music is more 'spiritual' than Bax.  I'd agree with that.  I hope that I can get to Bax's Second Symphony at the Proms - such a rare event - the only other Bax symphony I have heard live is No 5 at a half-empty Albert Hall about 30 years ago.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 06, 2011, 12:26:10 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 09:33:05 PM
You can't even remember the opening of Bax's 6th?

Which sadly I can't rate as highly as others do. After a strong beginning, it sort of trails away into the unmemorability you referred to.

Vernon Handley's rates Bax's No 6 as the greatest and as one of the great symphonies of the 20th Century. I have to say that I don't agree, much as I like the work.  I actually prefer No 4 which is always seen as the weakest of the seven. 2 and 3 are IMHO the greatest but I am always moved by the epilogue of No 7.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2011, 01:07:52 AM
My symphonic Bax favourites remain 1-3. I consider them as much 'brothers' as Brian did his symphonies 8-10. I agree with Jeffrey in disagreeing with Handley's valuation of the Sixth. After a very 'memorable' opening  ;) it flags, as eyeresist says. And the passage some Bax commentators consider the apex and culmination of the whole cycle never delivers for me. RVW is simply the greater composer, in my opinion, he encompasses so much and is much more varied. Which doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the Bax works I mentioned, by the way...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: springrite on May 06, 2011, 01:53:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 06, 2011, 12:26:10 AM
Vernon Handley's rates Bax's No 6 as the greatest and as one of the great symphonies of the 20th Century. I have to say that I don't agree, much as I like the work.  I actually prefer No 4 which is always seen as the weakest of the seven. 2 and 3 are IMHO the greatest but I am always moved by the epilogue of No 7.

My fav part is definitely the epilogue of the 7th. As for complete symphony, I'd say 3.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 06, 2011, 07:50:36 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2011, 01:07:52 AM
My symphonic Bax favourites remain 1-3. I consider them as much 'brothers' as Brian did his symphonies 8-10. I agree with Jeffrey in disagreeing with Handley's valuation of the Sixth. After a very 'memorable' opening  ;) it flags, as eyeresist says. And the passage some Bax commentators consider the apex and culmination of the whole cycle never delivers for me. RVW is simply the greater composer, in my opinion, he encompasses so much and is much more varied. Which doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the Bax works I mentioned, by the way...

I very much agree with this and I think that some of Vaughan Williams's choral works are amongst his finest achievements (Sancta Civitas for example) - there is nothing of similar quality in Bax.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 06, 2011, 08:34:16 AM
I think it's time to go through RVW's symphonies again (for the second time this week). Starting with A Sea Symphony. I'll be listening to Thomson's set as I think it's one of the best, if not the best, modern set I've heard of the symphonies. Anybody with me on this symphony marathon?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on May 06, 2011, 09:22:11 AM
Oh you like Thomson better than Previn?  I miss my Previn set, I sold it and not it's oop.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 06, 2011, 11:22:11 AM
Thanks to MI I purchased the Thomson set and it has become my favourite alongside Boult and Handley. Thomson's approach could be somewhat comparable to Haitink, taking the works not as genre pieces but as works that are great and will be played as such. He directs the music with the same conviction that he directs Nielsen, for example. There isn't the micromanagement or delicacy of Handley there, and the orchestral playing and recorded sound really help underline the dynamism of the performances. Unlike Haitink, however, it works ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 06, 2011, 11:41:52 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 06, 2011, 11:22:11 AMUnlike Haitink, however, it works ;)


Pfffttttt!!!!

;D ;)


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on May 06, 2011, 12:12:45 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 06, 2011, 11:41:52 AM

Pfffttttt!!!!

;D ;)

Double Pfffffftttttt!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 06, 2011, 06:44:18 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 06, 2011, 09:22:11 AM
Oh you like Thomson better than Previn?  I miss my Previn set, I sold it and not it's oop.

I think both Thomson and Previn are fantastic RVW conductors. The thing with Previn's set is the poor audio quality. If the audio had been better, then I could give higher marks, but good audio is important to me, especially when discussing RVW's music. I do think, however, that Previn's 5th (w/ the RPO) on Telarc is the greatest performance of this symphony I've heard, although Thomson and Boult come really close.

I own all the symphony sets. Thomson and Boult (EMI) are the ones I continue to come back to the most, although I do like many of the performances in the Haitink, Handley, and Andrew Davis sets.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on May 06, 2011, 08:17:40 PM
I see, I think agree... not the best sound quality.  Well I think want to buy and listen to the string quartets and the phantasy quintet in the near future.  I've heard good things about those works and I've never tried the chamber side of RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 06, 2011, 08:24:10 PM
The phantasy quintet I wish I could hear again with fresh ears - it's such a charming piece :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 06, 2011, 08:25:55 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 06, 2011, 08:24:10 PM
The phantasy quintet I wish I could hear again with fresh ears - it's such a charming piece :)
I'd loan you mine (virgin on that piece), but then I'd look even funnier than I already do (not to mention certain other problems)!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 07, 2011, 02:45:28 AM
Thomson was underrated and I prefer both his VW and Bax cycles to those of Vernon Handley. Previn is unrivalled IMHO in VW Symphony 2, 3 and 8.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 07, 2011, 09:31:09 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 07, 2011, 02:45:28 AM
Thomson was underrated and I prefer both his VW and Bax cycles to those of Vernon Handley. Previn is unrivalled IMHO in VW Symphony 2, 3 and 8.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of Handley's RVW recordings either. They just don't hit me emotionally like Boult and Thomson does.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on May 08, 2011, 05:08:05 AM
I like Handley in Bax and Arnold, but I'll admit his RVW is a bit dry.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on May 08, 2011, 06:39:21 AM
     I think music is a matter of shared psychology, and RVW shares his with listeners more effectively than Bax. The difference may be roughly stated as knowing how to do things with music vs how to do things with people. It makes musical judgment hard to get right, since it's never clear all the way through when you're talking about one or the other, so you end up talking about both.  This also sheds light a wee bit on the quasi-autism of the avant-garde, who theorize about music absent the psychology, as though it could be the case that music could be naturally good like a mountain is naturally high. Thus the obsession with technique and numerology, with listeners as cryptanalysts who discover at the end of their code-breaking yet another layer of code. I approve of this, and only disapprove of the idea that it's better art the fewer the players. The victory of RVW is a code that has captured many players high and low. He played the game as a man of the people, and he won across the board. So, sticking with this creaky analogy, RVW is the FDR of composers. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)

     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 08, 2011, 07:43:39 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 08, 2011, 06:39:21 AMSo, sticking with this creaky analogy, RVW is the FDR of composers. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)

Hey I like this! The FDR of composers. ;D That's an interesting statement.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on May 08, 2011, 08:25:57 AM
     

   
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 07, 2011, 09:31:09 PM
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Handley's RVW recordings either. They just don't hit me emotionally like Boult and Thomson does.

     Handley does well with concertos where his unemphatic style works to support someone else, like the RVW Piano Concerto with Piers Lane, and the Elgar Violin Concerto with Kennedy. However, when you compare Handley to Boult in the RVW symphonies, something seems to be missing. Boult is an unobtrusive underliner, whereas Handley is just unobtrusive to the point of being less interesting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on May 08, 2011, 08:30:39 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 08, 2011, 08:25:57 AMHandley does well with concertos where his unemphatic style works to support someone else, like the RVW Piano Concerto with Piers Lane, and the Elgar Violin Concerto with Kennedy. However, when you compare Handley to Boult in the RVW symphonies, something seems to be missing. Boult is an unobtrusive underliner, whereas Handley is just unobtrusive to the point of being less interesting.

Are you talking about Boult/Decca or Boult/EMI?  Boult/EMI has been deleted from the catalog.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 08, 2011, 08:33:11 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 08, 2011, 08:25:57 AM
   Handley does well with concertos where his unemphatic style works to support someone else, like the RVW Piano Concerto with Piers Lane, and the Elgar Violin Concerto with Kennedy. However, when you compare Handley to Boult in the RVW symphonies, something seems to be missing. Boult is an unobtrusive underliner, whereas Handley is just unobtrusive to the point of being less interesting.

I just think Handley's RVW recordings lack power and bite. He completely botches the 5th symphony, especially the Romanza section. I've become less and less impressed with Handley's conducting as the years have gone by. I will say, however, that I believe Handley's greatest achievements are his cycle of Simpson and Bantock.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 08, 2011, 08:35:00 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 08, 2011, 08:30:39 AMBoult/EMI has been deleted from the catalog.

Which I think is completely moronic. EMI feels the need to reissue everything else, so why not Boult's RVW cycle? I was lucky to have bought this set a few years ago for a killer price.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on May 08, 2011, 08:39:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 08, 2011, 08:35:00 AM
Which I think is completely moronic. EMI feels the need to reissue everything else, so why not Boult's RVW cycle? I was lucky to have bought this set a few years ago for a killer price.

Standard procedure is for EMI to do a big run of those box sets and delete them when stock runs out.  I suspect the Boult/RVW set is slated for reissue soon.  I had it and wasn't too pleased with it.  I ended selling it and using the proceeds to get the Haitink set, which I like better.  In retrospect, I probably should have hung on to both.  But I have several other RVW cycles that I have not fully explored (including Boult/Decca), so I won't be feeling the loss of the Boult cycle anytime soon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 08, 2011, 08:42:03 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 08, 2011, 08:39:37 AM
Standard procedure is for EMI to do a big run of those box sets and delete them when stock runs out.  I suspect the Boult/RVW set is slated for reissue soon.  I had it and wasn't too pleased with it.  I ended selling it and using the proceeds to get the Haitink set, which I like better.  In retrospect, I probably should have hung on to both.  But I have several other RVW cycles that I have not fully explored (including Boult/Decca), so I won't be feeling the loss of the Boult cycle anytime soon.

The Boult on EMI was the first RVW symphony cycle I bought and heard. Boult's approach was enough to interest me in this composer's music, so I have to at least give credit where credit is due. I don't listen to Boult much at all anymore. The Thomson has become my to-go-to set for RVW's symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on May 08, 2011, 09:55:54 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 08, 2011, 08:30:39 AM
Are you talking about Boult/Decca or Boult/EMI?  Boult/EMI has been deleted from the catalog.


     I don't know the whole Decca cycle, at least not now. I once had (or listened to) the LPs. Where I do have both I find Boult to be quite consistent. But my comments are about EMI especially.


Quote from: Mirror Image on May 08, 2011, 08:42:03 AM
The Boult on EMI was the first RVW symphony cycle I bought and heard. Boult's approach was enough to interest me in this composer's music, so I have to at least give credit where credit is due. I don't listen to Boult much at all anymore. The Thomson has become my to-go-to set for RVW's symphonies.

      One day you might go back to it. Stranger things have happened. For instance Betty, my nieces wiener dog, likes me. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/huh.gif)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 08, 2011, 10:38:17 AM
I think that Handley saw himself as the 'heir' to his mentor Boult - I think that Boult was a much greater conductor. However, the Arnold and Bantock sets by Handley are excellent and I am eternally grateful to him for recording the Rootham Symphony and those by Goossens etc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on May 08, 2011, 05:24:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 08, 2011, 08:33:11 AM
I just think Handley's RVW recordings lack power and bite. He completely botches the 5th symphony, especially the Romanza section. I've become less and less impressed with Handley's conducting as the years have gone by. I will say, however, that I believe Handley's greatest achievements are his cycle of Simpson and Bantock.

Funny, for me 5 and 3 were the highlights of Handley's RVW cycle. I too often find he missed expressive opportunites, but both these performances really worked for me. Haven't listened to them for a while, though; should get them out again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 08, 2011, 06:42:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 08, 2011, 10:38:17 AM
I think that Handley saw himself as the 'heir' to his mentor Boult - I think that Boult was a much greater conductor. However, the Arnold and Bantock sets by Handley are excellent and I am eternally grateful to him for recording the Rootham Symphony and those by Goossens etc.

Goossens is an interesting composer and his personal life was pretty wild getting mixed up with Rosaleen Norton and everything. I'm going to have to checkout his music. :) Someone this sick in the head has to be good! ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 30, 2011, 05:10:05 PM
My first experience with RVW symphonies was from the Slatkin/RCA cycle. I since then have gathered many more recordings of his symphonies, but there are times when I still resort back to Slatkin. Mainly his 8th & 9th symphonies. Maybe it's because they were the first recordings I encountered and I'm just so used to them.

I have 3, 4, 6, 8 & 9 from Thomson, and find them all to be amazing, I find myself listening to his "Pastoral" recording often. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 30, 2011, 05:20:20 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 30, 2011, 05:10:05 PM
My first experience with RVW symphonies was from the Slatkin/RCA cycle. I since then have gathered many more recordings of his symphonies, but there are times when I still resort back to Slatkin. Mainly his 8th & 9th symphonies. Maybe it's because they were the first recordings I encountered and I'm just so used to them.

I have 3, 4, 6, 8 & 9 from Thomson, and find them all to be amazing, I find myself listening to his "Pastoral" recording often.

My first cycle of RVW's symphonies was with Boult on EMI. I don't think it's always true that the first recordings we hear are the ones we're used to or at least not for me anyway. For me, Thomson simply outplays Boult and has better audio quality. I still like the Boult set, but it's not a frontrunner for me anymore, I have found better performances.

By the way, I own all of the RVW symphony cycles and I've done a lot of comparisons, but Thomson continues to come out ahead of the pack.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on May 30, 2011, 06:41:17 PM
The Slatkin cycle is mysterious, as it has been out of print for some time, despite a generally creditable assessment by critics and fans.

I started with Previn and he is still my reference, though I sometimes prefer a more level approach. I think he is supreme in 7 and 9.
Thomson is great in 8, but I otherwise find him a bit stiff.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 30, 2011, 09:27:16 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 30, 2011, 06:41:17 PM
The Slatkin cycle is mysterious, as it has been out of print for some time, despite a generally creditable assessment by critics and fans.

I started with Previn and he is still my reference, though I sometimes prefer a more level approach. I think he is supreme in 7 and 9.
Thomson is great in 8, but I otherwise find him a bit stiff.

I can barely tolerate Previn because of the horrible RCA audio. The only RVW Previn recording I liked was his performance of the 5th with the Royal Philharmonic on Telarc. What an excellent performance and one I still find passionate. I don't view Thomson's cycle as stiff, I think it's quite a muscular cycle that clearly stands in a class of its own. Handley's is okay, not one of my favorites. I like Andrew Davis' recordings on Teldec and he did a fine cycle. Both of Boult's are fine. The Naxos cycle is generally good (it has two conductors Bakels and Paul Daniel), and Slatkin's cycle suffered from bad audio as well as the volume level was set so low and the balance of the orchestra is way off the mark.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 30, 2011, 09:59:23 PM
I'm still looking for a totally acceptable performance of the 6th. I like the Previn from the performance standpoint, but the audio is poor as Mr. Image says - kind of a flat and hard perspective. I didn't like the much praised Andrew Davis; I think he plays down the drama too much.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 30, 2011, 10:03:02 PM
Quote from: Velimir on May 30, 2011, 09:59:23 PM
I'm still looking for a totally acceptable performance of the 6th. I like the Previn from the performance standpoint, but the audio is poor as Mr. Image says - kind of a flat and hard perspective. I didn't like the much praised Andrew Davis; I think he plays down the drama too much.

What about Boult or Thomson? The Thomson is an especially fine performance:

[asin]B000000AIV[/asin]


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on May 30, 2011, 10:58:17 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 30, 2011, 09:27:16 PM
I can barely tolerate Previn because of the horrible RCA audio.

Heh, that's the downside of having an audiophile sound system. No such worries for me!

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 30, 2011, 09:27:16 PMHandley's is okay, not one of my favorites. I like Andrew Davis' recordings on Teldec and he did a fine cycle. Both of Boult's are fine. The Naxos cycle is generally good (it has two conductors Bakels and Paul Daniel), and Slatkin's cycle suffered from bad audio as well as the volume level was set so low and the balance of the orchestra is way off the mark.

I liked Handley in 3-6. I was surprised he did so well in 3 and 5, as I don't normally think of him as especially sensitive or expressive.
I think the Naxos cycle overrated, except for the Antartica. Bakels generally lacked expression (no doubt considers himself a "Modernist"), while Daniels by contrast pulled the tempos about too much in the 4th.
Boult EMI I think doesn't offer much that can't be had in later, better recordings - except he is great in 4 and 6 (though I think 4 ends not as strongly as it begins). I still haven't heard the Decca cycle :(
I have Davis's 6 and don't see why it's so praised; it's well played, but anonymous in terms of interpretation.

Oh! And Haitink is BORING. I thought his approach worked best in the 6th, as to me it implied a dark current flowing beneath a placid surface.

Any specific opinions on Thomson unusually slow 8th?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 30, 2011, 11:34:49 PM
I also find Handley strong in the 1st and 7th, and fine in the 8th. The 7th in particular is very good, but his restraint works well in the 6th and 8th, resolutely not over-egging the pudding. I suspect that if he got the recorded sound quality of the Haitink, people might be a little warmer to the charms of the performances as a whole. As it stands, the sound can make his take sound a bit "small" in addition to his classical poise.

@Velimir: try this one:
[asin]B0018OAP2U[/asin]
It's not exactly typical, but it's gripping, and every performance on this twofer is superb. Even the rather unkown Gibson ranks highly in the crowded field of the 5th (I prefer it to Handley, it has a similar conception), but the reason to buy this is for an absolutely essential 4 and 6.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 30, 2011, 11:49:27 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 30, 2011, 11:34:49 PM
every performance on this twofer is superb. Even the rather unkown Gibson ranks highly in the crowded field of the 5th (I prefer it to Handley, it has a similar conception), but the reason to buy this is for an absolutely essential 4 and 6.

Ha. I've already got half of that (the Berglund 4th, et al). If only they'd issued the 6th separately!  >:(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 31, 2011, 01:15:09 AM
I think that Slatkin's VW set was very underrated. I like his No 9 very much indeed and have enjoyed all the others. His Shostakovich Symphony No 8 is my favourite as is his Copland Symphony No 3 (it was a pleasure to see him conduct this live at the Proms in London a few years back). As for Symphony No 6 by Vaughan Williams there are not that many entirely successful recordings. My introduction to this turbulent score (VW's greatest symphony IMHO) was Boult's old Decca Eclipse LP and that remains my favourite but the New Colin Davis version is very good as is Berglund's recording on EMI. I liked the old Abravanel version too.

A Sea Symphony

It is very odd, having listened to VW's music for 38 years I have never really enjoyed A Sea Symphony. Recently there was a sad event here when our young cat got run over and killed - I was very upset and couldn't listen to any music at all. And then, for some unknown reason, Vaughan Williams's Sea Symphony came into my head - so I played it and found it wonderful, especially the last movement 'The Explorers' - I have played the symphony over and over ever since and am listening to it again now. I think that I was lucky as I chose the Haitink EMI recording to play - it is wonderful, very epic and reminded me of Bruckner or Mahler in places, but remaining faithful to Vaughan Williams's sound world. I was really moved and consoled by this work with its Whitman setting and its dealing with great themes 'of Time and Space and Death' and the journey of the human soul. Perhaps the death of our cat reminded me of the fragility of life. All very odd but if this story sounds naff, in the circumstances, it is true.  Certainly, Haitink's performance of A Sea Symphony brought this work to life for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 31, 2011, 01:30:11 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 30, 2011, 11:34:49 PM
I also find Handley strong in the 1st and 7th, and fine in the 8th. The 7th in particular is very good, but his restraint works well in the 6th and 8th, resolutely not over-egging the pudding. I suspect that if he got the recorded sound quality of the Haitink, people might be a little warmer to the charms of the performances as a whole. As it stands, the sound can make his take sound a bit "small" in addition to his classical poise.

@Velimir: try this one:
[asin]B0018OAP2U[/asin]
It's not exactly typical, but it's gripping, and every performance on this twofer is superb. Even the rather unkown Gibson ranks highly in the crowded field of the 5th (I prefer it to Handley, it has a similar conception), but the reason to buy this is for an absolutely essential 4 and 6.

I couldn't agree more - these are amongst the greatest recordings of Vaughan Williams's central three symphonies. Silvestri's Tallis Fantasia is another conspicuous success, with its very atmospheric recording in Winchester Cathedral.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 31, 2011, 08:48:26 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pWVlCsSML._SS400_.jpg)

Such a big thread so maybe I missed this...but was curious about some of your thoughts about the Hickox original 2nd recording.
I've always preferred the Boult/LPO on EMI, maybe I need more time with the Hickox but I never go to it when I want to listen to RVW's 2nd.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 31, 2011, 08:51:04 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 31, 2011, 01:30:11 AM
I couldn't agree more - these are amongst the greatest recordings of Vaughan Williams's central three symphonies. Silvestri's Tallis Fantasia is another conspicuous success, with its very atmospheric recording in Winchester Cathedral.

Have you heard Previn's 5th with the RPO on Telarc?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 31, 2011, 09:03:22 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 31, 2011, 08:48:26 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pWVlCsSML._SS400_.jpg)

Such a big thread so maybe I missed this...but was curious about some of your thoughts about the Hickox original 2nd recording.
I've always preferred the Boult/LPO on EMI, maybe I need more time with the Hickox but I never go to it when I want to listen to RVW's 2nd.

The Hickox recording of the original version replaced all other recordings in my personal estimation. The less taut nature of the first version means that Hickox couldn't really provide a perfect performance (especially as he had no performance tradition of it to draw from), but the recorded sound and playing is very good, and the excised passages of such sublime quality that I can't be without them. It offers a substantially different view of the work, somewhat more emotional, sprawling, and revealing a facet of Vaughan Williams' compositional gestation that reveals tantalising "what if?"s, had he decided to continue down this "maximalist" path. After hearing this, the revised version feels slightly self-defeating - it zips by more tidily, but it offers a series of postcards, perhaps, rather than the whole city.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2011, 09:09:23 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 31, 2011, 09:03:22 AM
It offers a substantially different view of the work, somewhat more emotional, sprawling, and revealing a facet of Vaughan Williams' compositional gestation that reveals tantalising "what if?"s, had he decided to continue down this "maximalist" path. After hearing this, the revised version feels slightly self-defeating - it zips by more tidily, but it offers a series of postcards, perhaps, rather than the whole city.


Excellent!  :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 31, 2011, 09:11:37 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 31, 2011, 09:03:22 AM
The Hickox recording of the original version replaced all other recordings in my personal estimation. The less taut nature of the first version means that Hickox couldn't really provide a perfect performance (especially as he had no performance tradition of it to draw from), but the recorded sound and playing is very good, and the excised passages of such sublime quality that I can't be without them. It offers a substantially different view of the work, somewhat more emotional, sprawling, and revealing a facet of Vaughan Williams' compositional gestation that reveals tantalising "what if?"s, had he decided to continue down this "maximalist" path. After hearing this, the revised version feels slightly self-defeating - it zips by more tidily, but it offers a series of postcards, perhaps, rather than the whole city.

Wow, great convincing! I will definitely spend more time with this. Has the original 2nd version found it's way into the concert hall much?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 31, 2011, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2011, 09:09:23 AM

Excellent!  :o

Sara rules.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scarpia on May 31, 2011, 09:15:09 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 31, 2011, 09:11:37 AM
Wow, great convincing! I will definitely spend more time with this. Has the original 2nd version found it's way into the concert hall much?

As I understand it Vaughan Williams withdrew it and his estate has forbidden all performance.  Special permission was sought to obtain a copy of the original score and make the recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 31, 2011, 09:20:04 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 31, 2011, 09:14:36 AM
Sara rules.

Just don't ask me to listen to a clip of it blind - I'd probably guess it was Prokofiev or something ;D

(NB. obscure reference to a blind listening thread, nothing about the original version sounds that different!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 31, 2011, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 31, 2011, 09:20:04 AM
Just don't ask me to listen to a clip of it blind - I'd probably guess it was Prokofiev or something ;D

;D :D ;D


Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 31, 2011, 09:20:04 AM
(NB. obscure reference to a blind listening thread, nothing about the original version sounds that different!)

By the way, I don't think you've given us an official answer. You were fishing but didn't come right out and guess a specific work. You're still in the game.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 31, 2011, 09:49:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 31, 2011, 08:51:04 AM
Have you heard Previn's 5th with the RPO on Telarc?

Just bought it coincidentally! Haven't listened yet.  I prefer the Walton Symphony No 1 on Telarc by Previn to the much lauded RCA recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on May 31, 2011, 09:54:52 AM
The Previn/Telarc 5 is definitely the most beautiful sounding recording of the piece that I have heard - just gorgeous. I have read comments here and there about it lacking a little depth, but I confess that I struggle to find depths in this work that I will be perpetually over-familiar with.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 31, 2011, 09:59:19 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 31, 2011, 08:48:26 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pWVlCsSML._SS400_.jpg)

Such a big thread so maybe I missed this...but was curious about some of your thoughts about the Hickox original 2nd recording.
I've always preferred the Boult/LPO on EMI, maybe I need more time with the Hickox but I never go to it when I want to listen to RVW's 2nd.

I was very fortunate to hear Hickox conduct this at the Barbican (the first performance of the 1913 version since around the time of the First World War). I spoke briefly to Richard Hickox after the concert and he agreed with me that VW was nuts (not the expression I used!) to excise the most moving part of the London Symphony - an absolutely beautiful passage in the Epilogue, just before the end. When I listen to the 1936 version of the Symphony this is the section that I always miss. There is a recording from World War Two (Cincinnati SO, Goossens) on Biddulph, which is of the 1920 version and which still features this music.  I wish that VW had not made any other cuts in 1936.  The structure may have been tightened but I think that the Symphony lost more than it gained.  I always play the 1913 version now.  That Chandos CD is one of the greatest ever Vaughan Williams CDs. Now that Ursula Vaughan Williams is dead we may never here this version live again I guess.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on May 31, 2011, 10:07:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 31, 2011, 09:59:19 AM
. . . Now that Ursula Vaughan Williams is dead we may never here this version live again I guess.

Why so, Jeffrey?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 31, 2011, 10:12:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 31, 2011, 09:49:49 AM
Just bought it coincidentally! Haven't listened yet.  I prefer the Walton Symphony No 1 on Telarc by Previn to the much lauded RCA recording.

It's an excellent recording. One of Previn's finest in my opinion. I'm not that big of fan of Previn's conducting, but he did a fine job with this symphony and there's a also a great version of Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 31, 2011, 10:35:36 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 31, 2011, 10:07:18 AM
Why so, Jeffrey?

Hi Karl

I think that Ursula VW had to give special permission for a one off performance and recording.  Having said that it was performed at least twice as there was the Barbican concert I went to and one at the Proms - so maybe there will be further performances or recordings. There must be some difficulty because the composer himself wanted the 1936 version to stand as his 'final' version of A London Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 01, 2011, 12:08:19 PM
Arrived today. Premiere recordings of The Garden of Proserpine, a 25 minutes `very first' for soprano, chorus and orchestra from 1899! Coupled with RVW's 1955 own-handed arrangement of the 1953 Cantata `Fen and Flood' by Patrick Hadley.

Hope to read Jeffrey's enthusiast review on Amazon.co.uk soon.  ;)
              (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IMloze-JL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)                     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on June 01, 2011, 08:00:25 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 31, 2011, 09:15:09 AM
As I understand it Vaughan Williams withdrew it and his estate has forbidden all performance.  Special permission was sought to obtain a copy of the original score and make the recording.

Hickox was going to conduct the expanded 2nd in Sydney, but sadly died.

Quote"In Sydney, I will conduct a semi staged version of The Pilgrim's Progress in that year, as well as the Australian premiere of the original London Symphony with the Sydney Symphony Orchestra."

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/January%202007/19/781445/Diary%3A+Richard+Hickox
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 01, 2011, 10:51:13 PM
Quote from: Christo on June 01, 2011, 12:08:19 PM
Arrived today. Premiere recordings of The Garden of Proserpine, a 25 minutes `very first' for soprano, chorus and orchestra from 1899! Coupled with RVW's 1955 own-handed arrangement of the 1953 Cantata `Fen and Flood' by Patrick Hadley.

Hope to read Jeffrey's enthusiast review on Amazon.co.uk soon.  ;)
              (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IMloze-JL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)                   

How interesting! I'd be interested to hear your view of this ( I hope that you didn't have to smuggle the CD in to the house - as you know I strongly disapprove of such subterfuge  ;D)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 02, 2011, 12:32:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 01, 2011, 10:51:13 PM
(I hope that you didn't have to smuggle the CD in to the house - as you know I strongly disapprove of such subterfuge  ;D )


Why do I see Allo! Allo!-like scenes before my mind's eye?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: The new erato on June 02, 2011, 12:40:15 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 02, 2011, 12:32:05 AM

Why do I see Allo! Allo!-like scenes before my mind's eye?
That's the tactic. You stoooooo-pid woman!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 03, 2011, 03:03:32 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 01, 2011, 12:08:19 PM
Arrived today. Premiere recordings of The Garden of Proserpine, a 25 minutes `very first' for soprano, chorus and orchestra from 1899! Coupled with RVW's 1955 own-handed arrangement of the 1953 Cantata `Fen and Flood' by Patrick Hadley.

Hope to read Jeffrey's enthusiast review on Amazon.co.uk soon.  ;)
              (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IMloze-JL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)                   

Here's a review in The Guardian.  The Hadley work sounds good - I am a great admirer of 'The Trees so High' by Patrick Hadley - one of my favourite works generally - very poignant and moving.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/may/26/vaughan-williams-garden-proserpine-review
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2011, 12:45:25 PM
BBC Music Magazine (July) has a fine accompanying CD featuring Andrew Davis conducting Vaughan Williams's Symphony No 9 (BBC SO) from the London Proms in 2008. If anything I think that it is finer than his Warner studio recording. Perhaps it has less urgency than with Boult's 1958 recording or Stokowski's of the same year - but it is, I think, a beautifuly reflective performance of a great work - coupled with Parry's moving 'Elegy for Brahms'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on June 16, 2011, 12:55:43 AM
Thanks - I will have to get that one. And I'll finally have some Parry in my collection besides Jerusalem!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 16, 2011, 01:05:34 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 16, 2011, 12:55:43 AM
Thanks - I will have to get that one. And I'll finally have some Parry in my collection besides Jerusalem!

The performance of the Parry work is the best I have heard. It is a very nice coupling for the VW Symphony No 9.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on July 28, 2011, 06:09:14 AM
Even before I read that a number of GMGers rec the set, a (now deceased) conductor friend spoke very highly of the Bryden Thomson set of the symphonies.  Now, I've been very well content with both the Haitink and Handley sets (warm thanks again to our Harry for the former), so I wasn't beating any doors down . . . but when I chanced to see the Thomson set at the soon-to-be-shuttered Borders, resistance was futile.  Snaffled the box for about $40.  May save it for First-Listen Friday, or I may just wade right in, to-day . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 28, 2011, 07:53:07 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 16, 2011, 12:55:43 AM
Thanks - I will have to get that one. And I'll finally have some Parry in my collection besides Jerusalem!

Have you heard heard Parry's Symphony No. 5? This is crowning achievement of his symphonic cycle I believe.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 28, 2011, 07:53:54 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2011, 06:09:14 AM
Even before I read that a number of GMGers rec the set, a (now deceased) conductor friend spoke very highly of the Bryden Thomson set of the symphonies.  Now, I've been very well content with both the Haitink and Handley sets (warm thanks again to our Harry for the former), so I wasn't beating any doors down . . . but when I chanced to see the Thomson set at the soon-to-be-shuttered Borders, resistance was futile.  Snaffled the box for about $40.  May save it for First-Listen Friday, or I may just wade right in, to-day . . . .

I've been singing the praises of the Thomson set since I've been on this forum. It's my favorite of all the cycles. Hope you enjoy as much as I have.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on July 28, 2011, 05:16:45 PM
Karl, I'll be interested to hear what you think of the 8th under Thomson.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on August 05, 2011, 08:43:46 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 03, 2011, 03:03:32 AM
Here's a review in The Guardian.  The Hadley work sounds good - I am a great admirer of 'The Trees so High' by Patrick Hadley - one of my favourite works generally - very poignant and moving.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/may/26/vaughan-williams-garden-proserpine-review

Did you buy this disc, Jeffrey?

THE VW is very early and pretty untypical. Worth hearing and certainly not deserving of being suppressed by the composer and his widow Ursula....but no lost masterpiece.
The Hadley is certainly more interesting- a moving tribute to those who died in the East Coast Flood of 1953.

Now we just need Hadley's 'Connemara' Cantata.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:10:38 AM
Extremely late to this party (I may have posted in the thread somewhere, but have forgotten if I did), but then again I just purchased my first disc of RVW.  I have a few pieces here and there in my collection, but cannot find a single disc dedicated to just this composer until my purchase yesterday afternoon.  Here it be:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ki-DagpmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Recorded 1937 and 1944

I settled into listening to the 4th this morning as conducted by RVW.  Wow.  I was immediately transported into imagery that soon became a narrative in my head.  Not sure what his intent was, but I could not help picturing the credits to an old black and white jungle adventure movie opening up before me.  I sensed themes for different characters that immediately came alive in my imagination, queues for scenic shots, and even some light humored moments that fit the bill of a youngster "trollying" along with the group of explorers....in short, this music painted a story that has never been written, but was today in my imagination.  I am sure that it helped that this was a historic recording, and at times smacked of Steiner's King Kong.

I am aware that he wrote some music for film, but did he do that at the start of his composing, middle, end, or throughout?

I will give the 5th a listen this week, but I want to take my time.  Many times I have immersed myself in composers that I have not discovered yet with the purchases of large box sets.  Though these get played, I find that a few discs here and there suit me better these days.  I will scan through the 80+ pages here for recs, but I see myself concentrating, for now, on the historical recordings of this composer.  The sound that it lends seems to have struck a positive chord for me. :)

PS Does anyone else have this 1937 performance of the 4th?


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on August 06, 2011, 08:19:18 AM
Bill, there are many wonderful Vaughan Williams compositions.  I strongly recommend the Boult/EMI Classics box set of the symphonies, and other orchestral works.

Have you heard Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis?  The Lark Ascending?  Job:  A Masque for Dancing?  All great works!

My personal favorite of his symphonies is Symphony No. 6 in E minor, with Andrew Davis conducting.

Also, check out the Phantasy Quintet and String Quartets on Naxos, with Maggini Quartet.  Great stuff!  :)

Happy exploring!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2011, 08:33:53 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 05, 2011, 08:43:46 AM
Did you buy this disc, Jeffrey?

THE VW is very early and pretty untypical. Worth hearing and certainly not deserving of being suppressed by the composer and his widow Ursula....but no lost masterpiece.
The Hadley is certainly more interesting- a moving tribute to those who died in the East Coast Flood of 1953.

Now we just need Hadley's 'Connemara' Cantata.

Hi Colin,

Yes, but I've only listened to it once so far and, on the basis of, that I'd agree with what you say.  The Hadley sounded the more interesting work.  Of these very early Vaughan Williams works I like some of the chamber music on Hyperion and, above all, the 'Heroic Elegy and Triumphal March' on Dutton.
Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:39:27 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 06, 2011, 08:19:18 AM
Bill, there are many wonderful Vaughan Williams compositions.  I strongly recommend the Boult/EMI Classics box set of the symphonies, and other orchestral works.

Have you heard Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis?  The Lark Ascending?  Job:  A Masque for Dancing?  All great works!

My personal favorite of his symphonies is Symphony No. 6 in E minor, with Andrew Davis conducting.

Also, check out the Phantasy Quintet and String Quartets on Naxos, with Maggini Quartet.  Great stuff!  :)

Happy exploring!

I may lean toward these earlier Boult efforts, Ray.  Any reservations I should have?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SX9zVLTDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 06, 2011, 08:40:22 AM
Bogey, thankfully when it comes to RVW there are many recordings and sets available to satisfy many across a wide spectrum.

A few suggestions for you:

One of the first works I think people should hear first is The Lark Ascending. The reason I suggest this work first is because it contains some of exquisite writing for violin I've heard from any composer. It's essentially a rhapsody for violin and orchestra. If you love the violin, then this is a must hear. One of the best performances I've heard interestingly enough did not come from Hugh Bean/Boult, although this is a good performance but from Michael Davis with Bryden Thomson conducting the LSO on Chandos, which can be found in this excellent 2-CD set of concertos and string orchestra works:

[asin]B000000AUB[/asin]

The symphonies are discussed a lot around here and there are many sets to choose from. My favorite is Bryden Thomson with the LSO on Chandos. My favorite RVW symphonies are Nos. 3-5 and the 8th. The 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th, and 9th are also very good. I really like all the symphonies, but as with anybody, I have my favorites.

[asin]B000000AQ2[/asin]

Job: A Masque for Dancing has become one of my favorite RVW works. It's a ballet and contains some remarkable music. I own around 5 or 6 recordings of this work and probably my favorite is Hickox/Bournemouth Symphony on EMI. Unfortunately, this recording is out-of-print, but I'm sure you can find a used copy somewhere. It's a largely successful recording not just for the performance, but for the fact that EMI got some good audio here and there seems to be a little volume boost which gives the listener a chance to savor the more quiet, introspective sections (i. e. the beginning of the section Job's Dream).

RVW is one of my favorite composers and I think he's definitely worth investigating. Not because I'm a biased fan, but because I think his music has a timelessness and beauty that never fails to inspire me and move me deeply. Hope you enjoy the music as much as I have.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on August 06, 2011, 08:42:13 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:39:27 AM
I may lean toward these earlier Boult efforts, Ray.  Any reservations I should have?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SX9zVLTDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Looks like from my EMI set, the recordings are from the late 60s and early 70s.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:43:18 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 06, 2011, 08:42:13 AM
Looks like from my EMI set, the recordings are from the late 60s and early 70s.

The set I posted are from the 50's with 1-7 being mono.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:44:40 AM
Thanks MI!  I am also looking at some Stokowski efforts....always enjoy him, even if he takes liberties....which is maybe why I do. ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2011, 08:45:24 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:10:38 AM
Extremely late to this party (I may have posted in the thread somewhere, but have forgotten if I did), but then again I just purchased my first disc of RVW.  I have a few pieces here and there in my collection, but cannot find a single disc dedicated to just this composer until my purchase yesterday afternoon.  Here it be:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ki-DagpmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Recorded 1937 and 1944

I settled into listening to the 4th this morning as conducted by RVW.  Wow.  I was immediately transported into imagery that soon became a narrative in my head.  Not sure what his intent was, but I could not help picturing the credits to an old black and white jungle adventure movie opening up before me.  I sensed themes for different characters that immediately came alive in my imagination, queues for scenic shots, and even some light humored moments that fit the bill of a youngster "trollying" along with the group of explorers....in short, this music painted a story that has never been written, but was today in my imagination.  I am sure that it helped that this was a historic recording, and at times smacked of Steiner's King Kong.

I am aware that he wrote some music for film, but did he do that at the start of his composing, middle, end, or throughout?

I will give the 5th a listen this week, but I want to take my time.  Many times I have immersed myself in composers that I have not discovered yet with the purchases of large box sets.  Though these get played, I find that a few discs here and there suit me better these days.  I will scan through the 80+ pages here for recs, but I see myself concentrating, for now, on the historical recordings of this composer.  The sound that it lends seems to have struck a positive chord for me. :)

PS Does anyone else have this 1937 performance of the 4th?

You've chosen a great historical CD to start with - yes, I have that version of No 4 - it is very exciting.  At the time of its composition some commentators thought it reflected the troubled state of Europe, Rise of Fascism etc.  the composer denied all of this but it does have a kind of filmic quality - I agree with you.  Another vote for Symphony No 6 from me too.  If you like No 4 you should really like No 6 abouit which there were similar controversies concerning its 'meaning'.  Some critics thought that the Symphony (written just after World War Two) again reflected the fears and anxieties of its time and that the extraordinary last movement - played 'pianissimo' throughout, reflected a scene of nuclear devastation - again Vaughan Williams denied all of this - relating it to The Tempest instead. If you like historical performances, you might enjoy Stokowski's premiere recording on Sony and with it you get the Tallis Fantasia and Mitropolous's blistening account of Symphony No 4 - which Vaughan Williams thought highly of too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 06, 2011, 08:45:41 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:39:27 AM
I may lean toward these earlier Boult efforts, Ray.  Any reservations I should have?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SX9zVLTDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Obviously, you're not bothered by mono sound, but I think RVW should be heard in good stereo sound as his music looses a lot of those wonderful textures that are found in the scores. I own every symphony set available and the one I come back to the most is the one that I recommended to you: Thomson/LSO on Chandos. You can go the inexpensive route with Handley, Andrew Davis, Haitink, Boult (EMI/Decca), but Thomson's set is really something quite special.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:47:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 06, 2011, 08:45:24 AM
you might enjoy Stokowski's premiere recording on Sony and with it you get the Tallis Fantasia and Mitropolous's blistening account of Symphony No 4 - which Vaughan Williams thought highly of too.

Thanks, V!  Can you link me to this set?

Thanks again , MI.  Always enjoyed the Chandos label efforts and their sound, so it should be a winner at this end as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 06, 2011, 08:48:39 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:44:40 AM
Thanks MI!  I am also looking at some Stokowski efforts....always enjoy him, even if he takes liberties....which is maybe why I do. ;D

You're welcome. I guess I'm just not that enthusiastic about historical recordings. I recognize their importance, but I just can't get past the sound of them. I need a good stereo sound from my classical recordings. Stokowski is a great conductor, but, again, doesn't measure up to Thomson in RVW or even Boult for that matter.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2011, 08:49:33 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:39:27 AM
I may lean toward these earlier Boult efforts, Ray.  Any reservations I should have?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SX9zVLTDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Sorry to but in but you wont go wrong here.  All performances are excellent, with a best ever No 6. You also get VW's speech after No 6 and Boult's tribute before No 9 (VW was due to attend the recording in August 1958 but died during the previous night). All the other recordings were made with VW in the studio.  You need one of Boult's four recordings of 'Job' to supplement the set (he was the deicatee).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:50:09 AM
I like RVW said about the 4th:

"I don't know if I like it, but it is what I meant."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 06, 2011, 08:53:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 06, 2011, 08:49:33 AM
Sorry to but in but you wont go wrong here.  All performances are excellent, with a best ever No 6. You also get VW's speech after No 6 and Boult's tribute before No 9 (VW was due to attend the recording in August 1958 but died during the previous night). All the other recordings were made with VW in the studio.  You need one of Boult's four recordings of 'Job' to supplement the set (he was the deicatee).

Yes, they're good performances even for mono recordings, but I just can't give them a 100% recommendation as a first set of symphonies. The stereo Boult would be a much better recommendation especially if sound is important to the listener. Boult turned in many fine Job performances, but I've done comparisons with all the ones I own and Hickox and Handley easily outperform Boult.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 06, 2011, 08:55:33 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:50:09 AM
I like RVW said about the 4th:

"I don't know if I like it, but it is what I meant."

RVW was very careful not to explain the meanings behind his symphonies. People have asked him over and over "What does this mean here?" or "What did you mean in the 6th symphony when you wrote this..." He left the interpretation up to the listener.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2011, 08:55:49 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:47:56 AM
Thanks, V!  Can you link me to this set?

Thanks again , MI.  Always enjoyed the Chandos label efforts and their sound, so it should be a winner at this end as well.

Of course - with pleasure.

The Sony only now seems to be available at a ridiculous price - but here it is on Cala in it's best transfer - this is a really nice CD.  You don't get the Mitropolous No 4 but you have the VW recording anyway:

http://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Symphony-Tchiakovsky-Weinberger/dp/B000222YGO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1312649556&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2011, 09:03:34 AM
Bogey,

I think that you are US based so I did a link to the US Amazon site but I just checked and the Stokowski/Mitropolous VW 4 and 6 + Tallis CD is available very cheaply from the UK Amazon site;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonies-4-6-Mitropoulos/dp/B0000263RR/ref=sr_1_15?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1312649932&sr=1-15

I agree with Mirror Image - if you want modern recordings the later Boult or Thomson sets are excellent (and the Boult includes Job and the Concerto for Two Pianos etc). You can also pick up the underrated Andrew Davis set quite cheaply - his version of Symphony Non 6 is magnificent in all respects.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 09:08:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 06, 2011, 08:55:33 AM
RVW was very careful not to explain the meanings behind his symphonies. People have asked him over and over "What does this mean here?" or "What did you mean in the 6th symphony when you wrote this..." He left the interpretation up to the listener.

Excellent!

Thanks for the links....time to consider my next purchase.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 06, 2011, 09:08:42 AM
Hey Jeffery, have you heard Hickox's performance of Job with the Bournemouth Symphony on EMI? This is an outstanding recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2011, 04:08:47 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 06, 2011, 09:08:42 AM
Hey Jeffery, have you heard Hickox's performance of Job with the Bournemouth Symphony on EMI? This is an outstanding recording.

I do have this (on an EMI CD) but I have only played it once - so must listen again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 06, 2011, 06:49:25 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 06, 2011, 04:08:47 PM
I do have this (on an EMI CD) but I have only played it once - so must listen again.

Yes, please do and tell me what you think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 07, 2011, 06:51:58 PM
Quote from: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:10:38 AM
I settled into listening to the 4th this morning as conducted by RVW.  Wow.  I was immediately transported into imagery that soon became a narrative in my head.  Not sure what his intent was, but I could not help picturing the credits to an old black and white jungle adventure movie opening up before me.  I sensed themes for different characters that immediately came alive in my imagination, queues for scenic shots, and even some light humored moments that fit the bill of a youngster "trollying" along with the group of explorers....in short, this music painted a story that has never been written, but was today in my imagination.  I am sure that it helped that this was a historic recording, and at times smacked of Steiner's King Kong.

I am aware that he wrote some music for film, but did he do that at the start of his composing, middle, end, or throughout?

I will give the 5th a listen this week, but I want to take my time.  Many times I have immersed myself in composers that I have not discovered yet with the purchases of large box sets.  Though these get played, I find that a few discs here and there suit me better these days.  I will scan through the 80+ pages here for recs, but I see myself concentrating, for now, on the historical recordings of this composer.  The sound that it lends seems to have struck a positive chord for me. :)

I'm glad I'm not the only one for whom the 4th sounds like exciting film music! For me, it is the opening to a grim film noir. RVW's film music came towards the end of his career, prompted by the patriotic demands of WW2. His 7th "Antartica" is the most obviously "filmic", being developed from music he wrote for Scott of the Antarctic. (For film music haters, it should be pointed out that stylistically RVW was generally 10 years ahead of cinematic trends.)

I recommend the Previn's uber-romantic cycle (esp. 2, 3, 5, 7 (most epic ever) & 9), supplemented with Marriner's 2-disc set of orchestral music (inc. Tallis, and Lark with Iona Brown).
Of the other cycles, Boult is best in the aggressive 4 and 6, and Handley surprises with deeply felt 3 and 5, but otherwise I find them rather stiff and underplaying the emotions. Thomson is generally thick and stodgy (sorry MI) but his 5 is good and I love his 8. Haitink seems highly rated by people who value sound over passion; nothing Wrong with it as such but he's just not as deeply in the music as the others. Davis is generally dismissed except for 6 - the sound is wonderfully dark but I don't find the actual performance exceptional.
Haven't heard Hickox; planning to get Slatkin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 07, 2011, 07:32:55 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 07, 2011, 06:51:58 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one for whom the 4th sounds like exciting film music! For me, it is the opening to a grim film noir. RVW's film music came towards the end of his career, prompted by the patriotic demands of WW2. His 7th "Antartica" is the most obviously "filmic", being developed from music he wrote for Scott of the Antarctic. (For film music haters, it should be pointed out that stylistically RVW was generally 10 years ahead of cinematic trends.)

I recommend the Previn's uber-romantic cycle (esp. 2, 3, 5, 7 (most epic ever) & 9), supplemented with Marriner's 2-disc set of orchestral music (inc. Tallis, and Lark with Iona Brown).
Of the other cycles, Boult is best in the aggressive 4 and 6, and Handley surprises with deeply felt 3 and 5, but otherwise I find them rather stiff and underplaying the emotions. Thomson is generally thick and stodgy (sorry MI) but his 5 is good and I love his 8. Haitink seems highly rated by people who value sound over passion; nothing Wrong with it as such but he's just not as deeply in the music as the others. Davis is generally dismissed except for 6 - the sound is wonderfully dark but I don't find the actual performance exceptional.
Haven't heard Hickox; planning to get Slatkin.

It doesn't bother that other people don't like Thomson. We all have different ears my friend.

Previn's cycle would have been much better received by myself had the audio beeen good, but it's not. Horrible is the adjective I would use to describe it actually. Slatkin is another one that suffers from scrappy audio. Handley's 5th was never that impressive to me. Thomson, Boult (EMI), and Previn (Telarc) remain the best 5ths I've heard. Haitink's is actually pretty good, but not great. I like Andrew Davis's cycle on Warner.

Here's a breakdown on what I think are the best performances of each symphony:

A Sea Symphony - Hickox/Philharmonia/EMI
A London Symphony - Hickox/LSO/Chandos
A Pastoral Symphony - Thomson/LSO/Chandos
Symphony No. 4 - Bernstein/NYPO/Sony
Symphony No. 5 - Previn/RPO/Telarc
Symphony No. 6 - Davis/BBCSO/Warner
Symphony No. 7 - Handley/RLPO/EMI
Symphony No. 8 - Thomson/LSO/Chandos
Symphony No. 9 - Thomson/LSO/Chandos
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on August 07, 2011, 08:12:46 PM
Ooh an opportunity to make lists - I cannot pass this up ;D

1 - Boult/Handley/Haitink
2 - Hickox*/Boult
3 - Bakels/Boult I/Thomson
4 - Berglund*/Mitropoulos
5 - Boult II/Thomson/Gibson/Previn II
6 - Berglund*/Handley/Stokowski
7 - Handley/Haitink
8 - Handley/Barbirolli '57
9 - Boult I/Thomson

*Denotes the three performances I consider most remarkable. While I love all the others, these are ones that go above and beyond in terms of offering something truly different from the masses.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 07, 2011, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 07, 2011, 08:12:46 PM
Ooh an opportunity to make lists - I cannot pass this up ;D

1 - Boult/Handley/Haitink
2 - Hickox*/Boult
3 - Bakels/Boult I/Thomson
4 - Berglund*/Mitropoulos
5 - Boult II/Thomson/Gibson/Previn II
6 - Berglund*/Handley/Stokowski
7 - Handley/Haitink
8 - Handley/Barbirolli '57
9 - Boult I/Thomson

*Denotes the three performances I consider most remarkable. While I love all the others, these are ones that go above and beyond in terms of offering something truly different from the masses.

A great list, Lethe. Interesting choice in the 5th for Gibson. This isn't a bad performance. If I recall it's coupled with Berglund's recordings of the 4th and 6th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 07, 2011, 08:17:45 PM
Lethe, you listmaker, you. Get the Previn. If you like the Berglund/Gibson set, I think you'll like the warmth of Previn's style.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on August 07, 2011, 08:24:17 PM
@eyeresist: aaaghh not more ;D I'm getting semi-close to amassing every cycle - the ones I lack are Davis (all), Previn (all), Hickox (part) and Slatkin (part). I think Hickox is the biggest priority at the moment, although everybody keeps mentionign Previn - I will cave in eventually.

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 07, 2011, 08:16:56 PM
A great list, Lethe. Interesting choice in the 5th for Gibson. This isn't a bad performance. If I recall it's coupled with Berglund's recordings of the 4th and 6th.

I have problems picking fifths - performances of the piece all tend to be very solid, but there appears to be little interpretive wiggle-room for conductors to distinguish themselves. The Gibson had a certain nobility to it that I found appealing. That problem in picking "different" fifths was the reason I added Previn II - I don't all that much care for the emotional side of it - I feel that it skims the surface a little - but the sheer sound of the performance is gorgeous. The Berglund recordings I like for the uniqueness of the concept - a bit like Celibidache's Bruckner, he finds a different approach to the music which had been totally unexplored before then. The recorded sound is also plenty good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 07, 2011, 08:25:48 PM
No, Lethe, pass on the Previn. Horrendous audio.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 07, 2011, 08:31:22 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 07, 2011, 08:24:17 PM
@eyeresist: aaaghh not more ;D I'm getting semi-close to amassing every cycle - the ones I lack are Davis (all), Previn (all), Hickox (part) and Slatkin (part). I think Hickox is the biggest priority at the moment, although everybody keeps mentionign Previn - I will cave in eventually.

I have problems picking fifths - performances of the piece all tend to be very solid, but there appears to be little interpretive wiggle-room for conductors to distinguish themselves. The Gibson had a certain nobility to it that I found appealing. That problem in picking "different" fifths was the reason I added Previn II - I don't all that much care for the emotional side of it - I feel that it skims the surface a little - but the sheer sound of the performance is gorgeous. The Berglund recordings I like for the uniqueness of the concept - a bit like Celibidache's Bruckner, he finds a different approach to the music which had been totally unexplored before then. The recorded sound is also plenty good.

The rest of Hickox's performances aren't really up to par with my own standards. The audio surprisingly on the rest of his RVW recordings on Chandos weren't really that great. Kind of dull sound throughout. The 5th is an enigmatic work whose heart is found in the Romanza section. If you have a Romanza section that isn't played to the music's fullest potential, then it comes off sounding hackneyed like Handley's performance did. This work needs a conductor who understands the elusive nature of this work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 07, 2011, 08:42:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 07, 2011, 08:25:48 PM
No, Lethe, pass on the Previn. Horrendous audio.
No, pass on the Mirror. Horrendous Image.

Listening to the 3rd under Previn now. Admittedly of its time, but otherwise sounds perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 07, 2011, 08:45:54 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 07, 2011, 08:42:27 PM
No, pass on the Mirror. Horrendous Image.

Listening to the 3rd under Previn now. Admittedly of its time, but otherwise sounds perfectly fine.

Lethe, will have a difficult time getting the Previn anyway. It's out-of-print and quite expensive. She could probably go the single release route, but I think some of these are out-of-print as well.

I've owned this set for quite some time and listened through it twice. The performances were generally very good, but the audio, especially in the strings were incredibly lackluster.

By the way, it's not just my ears deceiving me, this is the general problem with this set as I have read many others complain about the audio as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on August 07, 2011, 08:53:05 PM
I'm not too fussed about sound - my hearing isn't perfect, sadly. The question of whether I can own or hear the Previn set are distinct matters, I'm sure it's piratable, but eventually I'd like to own it if it comes back into print at a normal price.

Strange how Previn seems to have had audio problems with two distinct labels. I absolutely hated* his re-recording of the London Symphony due to the ridiculous dynamic range.

*It takes a lot to rise me above apathy.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 07, 2011, 08:59:31 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 07, 2011, 08:53:05 PM
I'm not too fussed about sound - my hearing isn't perfect, sadly. The question of whether I can own or hear the Previn set are distinct matters, I'm sure it's piratable, but eventually I'd like to own it if it comes back into print at a normal price.

Strange how Previn seems to have had audio problems with two distinct labels. I absolutely hated* his re-recording of the London Symphony due to the ridiculous dynamic range.

*It takes a lot to rise me above apathy.

I never bothered with Previn's London Symphony recording for that very reason. Too many complaints about it. You may find the Previn on RCA in the used market. It's got a pretty hefty price tag right now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 07, 2011, 09:11:00 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 07, 2011, 08:53:05 PM
I absolutely hated* his re-recording of the London Symphony due to the ridiculous dynamic range.

:) Yes, I remember my first listen to that.

Press play.

One minute later, thinks:  "When is the music going to start?"


EDIT: The Previn cycle is admittedly very rare at the moment.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 08, 2011, 03:56:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 06, 2011, 08:55:33 AM
RVW was very careful not to explain the meanings behind his symphonies.

Maybe in some cases . . . there was no "meaning" behind a symphony (* gasp *)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2011, 04:49:44 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 07, 2011, 08:12:46 PM
Ooh an opportunity to make lists - I cannot pass this up ;D

Me neither  :D  And I haven't made a new list since acquiring several more VW cycles (Bakels, Thomson, Slatkin, Boult Decca). So, today, my favorites (with runnerups):

1 - Slatkin (tremendous organ presence)
     Boult (Decca)
     Haitink

2 - Hickox
     Barbirolli (Dutton)
     Thomson
     Boult (EMI)

3 - Boult (Decca)
     Haitink
     Previn

4 - Bernstein
     Boult (Decca)
     Slatkin

5 - Menuhin
     Previn (Telarc)
     Barbirolli

6 - Boult (Decca)
     Davis
     Berglund

7 - Haitink
     Previn

8 - Haitink
     Barbirolli (Dutton)
     Handley
     Thomson

9 - Haitink
     Bakels
     Thomson

As a whole I really enjoyed Thomson but none of the performances knocked out my favorites.  Living a few more months with the Thomson box has made me revise my opinion: I have to add his 2, 8 and 9 to my favorites.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: The new erato on August 08, 2011, 04:51:44 AM
Seems like I should buy the Boult Decca set, currently available for at tenner ( £ that is).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2011, 04:55:33 AM
Quote from: The new erato on August 08, 2011, 04:51:44 AM
Seems like I should buy the Boult Decca set, currently available for at tenner ( £ that is).

I resisted for years, being content with Boult EMI. I was wrong, the majority right: in most cases the earlier accounts are superior. Still like EMI though. It's comfortable.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: The new erato on August 08, 2011, 04:58:31 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2011, 04:55:33 AM
I resisted for years, being content with Boult EMI. I was wrong, the majority right: in most cases the earlier accounts are superior. Still like EMI though. It's comfortable.

Sarge
I have the EMI set and it has always been my go-to RVW.  No other complete sets, but several single discs by Haitink, Bakels and Slatkin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2011, 05:01:41 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 07, 2011, 06:51:58 PM
Haitink seems highly rated by people who value sound over passion; nothing Wrong with it as such but he's just not as deeply in the music as the others.

Utterly disagree with this.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 08, 2011, 05:11:06 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2011, 04:49:44 AM
Me neither  :D  And I haven't made a new list since acquiring several more VW cycles (Bakels, Thomson, Slatkin, Boult Decca). So, today, my favorites (with runnerups):

1 - Slatkin (tremendous organ presence)
     Boult Decca
     Haitink

2 - Hickox
     Barbirolli (Dutton)

3 - Boult (Decca)
     Haitink

4 - Bernstein
     Slatkin

5 - Menuhin
     Previn (Telarc)

6 - Boult (Decca)
     Davis

7 - Haitink
     Previn

8 - Haitink
     Barbirolli (Dutton)
     Handley

9 - Haitink
     Bakels

As a whole I really enjoyed Thomson but none of the performances knocked out my favorites.

Glad to see Haitink in the running in so many of the symphonies, Sarge!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2011, 05:11:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 08, 2011, 05:11:06 AM
Glad to see Haitink in the running in so many of the symphonies, Sarge!

Boult and the Dutchman go to the desert island  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 08, 2011, 05:12:13 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2011, 05:01:41 AM
Utterly disagree with this.

Aye, what Sarge said.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on August 08, 2011, 06:35:11 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 07, 2011, 07:32:55 PM

Here's a breakdown on what I think are the best performances of each symphony:


Symphony No. 6 - Davis/BBCSO/Warner


Two thumbs up!!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2011, 12:52:35 PM
Quote from: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:10:38 AMI am sure that it helped that this was a historic recording, and at times smacked of Steiner's King Kong.

That's interesting. The first time I heard the Fourth I too thought of Max Steiner. The syncopated theme at the beginning of the last movement reminded me of the music depicting the cavalry in the classic Errol Flynn film The Charge of the Light Brigade.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 08, 2011, 12:58:28 PM
Can't resist lists - think that Lethe's is very good.

A Sea Symphony (Haitink - a revelation to me - brought alive a symphony I had largely ignored for c 40 years - Previn is very good here too)

A London Symphony (1913) Hickox, 1920 (Goossens), 1936 (Previn RCA)

A Pastoral Symphony (Previn, LSO, RCA)

No 4 (Berglund)

No 5 (Vaughan Williams for historical and Barbirolli's EMI version)

No 6 Boult (Decca), A. Davis (Warner)

Antartica (Boult, Decca)

No 8 (Previn, RCA)

No 9 (Stokowski, Cala, Thomson, Chandos, Slatkin, RCA)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2011, 01:48:28 PM
Quote from: Bogey on August 06, 2011, 08:39:27 AM
I may lean toward these earlier Boult efforts, Ray.  Any reservations I should have?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SX9zVLTDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

No reservations. This is the classic cycle, in sound that was spectacular for the time (1-7 are Culshaw productions) and still sounds good today, especially in the remastered Decca box. In fact, I prefer Decca's mono to EMI's stereo. It's brighter and more detailed; the special effects are tremendous (like the organ entry in the Antarctica). The Fourth and Sixth are actually stunning. Even the Sea Symphony holds its own (I was comparing it to more recent recordings this afternoon). Of course you won't confuse this with a modern recording but I don't think you'll be disappointed either.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on August 08, 2011, 06:07:56 PM
I shall cheat and list some joint favourites:

Sea Symphony: LPO/Haitink

London Symphony: Halle/Barbirolli, LSO/Previn and LSO/Hickox

Pastoral Symphony: LSO/Previn and LSO/Hickox

No.4: LSO/Previn and LSO/Hickox

No.5: Philharmonia/Barbirolli, RLPO/Handley and LSO/Hickox

No.6: RLPO/Handley, LSO/Thomson, BBC SO/Davis, LSO/Hickox

Sinfonia Antarctica: LPO/Haitink

No.8: LSO/Thomson and LSO/Hickox

No.9: RLPO/Handley and LSO/Thomson

plus Boult in them all!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 08, 2011, 06:24:26 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2011, 05:01:41 AM
Utterly disagree with this.

Sarge

That's fine :)  It looks like Menuhin's 5th is a dark horse worth investigating. Was this one of the recordings for RPO's house label?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 08, 2011, 06:34:55 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 08, 2011, 06:24:26 PM
That's fine :)  It looks like Menuhin's 5th is a dark horse worth investigating. Was this one of the recordings for RPO's house label?

No, it was released on Virgin Classics and the 5th was coupled with Concerto for Two Pianos. I haven't heard this recording in a few years, but I remember it being very good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 09, 2011, 04:05:34 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 08, 2011, 06:24:26 PM
It looks like Menuhin's 5th is a dark horse worth investigating. Was this one of the recordings for RPO's house label?

As MI said, it's a Virgin recording from 1988:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/febgmc/VW5Men.jpg)

It's a very important performance for me. For reasons I cannot fathom now, the Fifth was the only VW symphony I didn't get or like. In fact, I bought the CD for the Piano Concerto, not expecting to even listen much to the Fifth. When I heard it, though, it clicked--possibly because it's a very different interpretation from what I'd heard before. Gramophone says:

"Yehudi Menuhin's is a very personal view, quite different in many details from most others. The first movement opens at what seems to me a near ideal tempo, though still slower than the composer's marking, and at a proper mezzo forte which brings with it a simplicity of expression which is very convincing. He refuses to linger, moving forward even slightly more in places, yet the beginning of the Allegro feels very measured indeed. He is clearly concerned to maintain the tempo here as the sound of his tapping foot is clearly audible. The tempo for the recapitulation is noticeably slower than before, and uniquely he plays the "tutta forza" bars exactly in time. I find this hugely effective and satisfying. What a pity then, for this listener at least, to spoil it all by pulling back so much twelve bars later to deliver a climax to the movement which is terribly inflated. The music then subsides again into the slowest coda on record, becoming even slower at it reaches its goal....Menuhin's is a challenging interpretation, very well played and recorded, and everyone ought to hear it if they can."


Sarge

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on August 09, 2011, 05:57:27 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ki-DagpmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Recorded 1937 and 1944

Well, rolled out the 5th today for my first ever listen to this piece, and like the 4th was immediately transported into musical bliss.  The 5th had a nice even flow to it that made the 40 minutes or so seem to evaporate.  Only when the 4th movement came around did it take a different, yet wonderful turn for me.  Imagery as below came to mind:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PBDHM5HFW14/TOKG1xHhsyI/AAAAAAAAAH0/MfMO4a496gc/s1600/chinese_junk.jpg)

Absolutely beautiful.

After only two symphonies of RVW under belt, I have noticed something additionally special about his music.  Even when considering thoughts for the upcoming day or other matters, his music, while playing, does not leave me even for a moment.  Many times with others' music I find I have to relisten or attend to at a higher level of concentration.  So far, RVW's music pentrates at a deeper level letting me enjoy his music while also considering other notions.  Pretty cool stuff. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on August 09, 2011, 06:04:44 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 09, 2011, 05:57:27 AM
Imagery as below came to mind:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PBDHM5HFW14/TOKG1xHhsyI/AAAAAAAAAH0/MfMO4a496gc/s1600/chinese_junk.jpg)

Absolutely beautiful.



:D  Happy to hear, Bill.  Karl will be especially pleased at the imagery of an English composer's music to a boat.  8)

Keep exploring Vaughan Williams, Bill.  There is a lot of great music.  My personal revelation came with the 6th Symphony, Fantasia on a Theme by Tallis, and the Phantasy Quintet.

I love it when we here all make new discoveries!  It really is a blessing.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 09, 2011, 06:07:14 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 09, 2011, 06:04:44 AM
:D  Happy to hear, Bill.  Karl will be especially pleased at the imagery of an English composer's music to a boat.  8)

Gotta be some Britten around here . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 09, 2011, 11:59:23 PM
This reissue is really good as it restores to circulation Berglund's performances of symphonies 4 and 6, both excellent, especially the slow movement of No 4 and the sibelian performance of No 6 (and for once the Epilogue is not rushed).  Also it included Gibson's underrated recording of Symphony No 5, which includes a very eloquent and moving performance of the slow movement.  Link below includes a more detailed Amazon review by me.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Overture-Composers/dp/B0018OAP2U/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1312962734&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 30, 2011, 12:37:19 PM
RCA have reissued Leonard Slatkin's underrated set of the symphonies at super bargain price.  EMI have repackaged their Boult cycle too.

[asin]B005DZIM0M[/asin][asin]B0056K4VUY[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 04:16:32 PM
Sorry if this was already discussed... but what is the sound quality on the Slatkin cycle and what decade does it come from?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 04:26:08 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 04:16:32 PM
Sorry if this was already discussed... but what is the sound quality on the Slatkin cycle and what decade does it come from?

Don't get me started on the audio quality on Slatkin's cycle. That is a powder keg ready to blow. ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2011, 05:16:44 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 04:16:32 PM
Sorry if this was already discussed... but what is the sound quality on the Slatkin cycle and what decade does it come from?


Audible.  ;D     and from early 90s.
I love the Slatkin set, with the exception of No. 5 & 6, I feel strongly about the other symphonies performances, and they can easily be recommended.
The set contains my personal favorite recordings of No. 1, 8 & 9.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 05:44:26 PM
The general problem I've experienced with Slatkin's recordings on RCA from the early 90s have been with the low-level volume. The recordings of the 5th and 6th suffer from balance problems. Strings that are barely heard and brass that overpowers everything. Just poor engineering all-around.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 06:53:51 PM
Alright, sounding good... Handley and Slatkin will both be competing for modern sound at bargain price.  Who else is competing in that area?  And who wins performance wise overall (among the bargain sets)?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 06:59:14 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 06:53:51 PM
Alright, sounding good... Handley and Slatkin will both be competing for modern sound at bargain price.  Who else is competing in that area?  And who wins performance wise overall (among the bargain sets)?

Handley easily wins for me, though I never thought much of his performance of the 5th symphony, but this is a difficult symphony to get right in my opinion, because there is so much attention that has to be placed to each movement's overall dynamic. The Handley also contains better extras like Job and Flos campi, which are two works that belong amongst RVW's masterpieces.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 31, 2011, 03:15:25 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 06:53:51 PM
Alright, sounding good... Handley and Slatkin will both be competing for modern sound at bargain price.  Who else is competing in that area?

Haitink, of course. His box is 32 bucks at Amazon. He has the best sound. Even though it's my favorite cycle after Boult's I'm relunctant to recommend it because his interpretations (and they are interpretations) polarize opinion. I like to say he "Brucknerizes" VW: slow tempos, granitic blocks of sound.

Slatkin I love and while I acknowledge the sonic issues MI has with it, the sound doesn't bother me. At points in the score Slatkin obviously wanted the strings to be less prominent. You can agree or disagree with Slatkin's decision.

Handley is the safe choice: good sound, thoroughly British readings, loved by many...but which I find a little staid (don't put much weight in that though: after Boult I'm looking for quite different takes on the music, which the "foreigners" (Previn, Slatkin, Haitink, Bakels) provide.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2011, 03:50:05 AM
I join Sarge in his enthusiasm for the Haitink, but then, you knew that ; )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on August 31, 2011, 04:03:35 AM
I've ordered the Haitink set.  Not only do I like the description given by you Sarge, and like the endorsement by Karl but your description matches well with my impressions of Handley which I have listened to before. :)

If I like it, I'll be asking about the concertos, Thomson I guess for those but who knows?! :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 31, 2011, 04:16:41 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2011, 05:16:44 PM

Audible.  ;D     and from early 90s.
I love the Slatkin set, with the exception of No. 5 & 6, I feel strongly about the other symphonies performances, and they can easily be recommended.
The set contains my personal favorite recordings of No. 1, 8 & 9.

Totally agree with this verdict on the cycle.  Listened to No 5 last night and was very disappointed - too fast and lacking depth.  No 6 not as bad I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 31, 2011, 04:21:48 AM
The Haitink recording of A Sea Symphony opened my eyes to a work that I had largely ignored for c 40 years - a revelation to me.  Sarge - which Boult cycle is your favourite?

As for No 5 the best version IMHO is Barbirolli's on EMI (the CD with Bax's Tintagel is wonderful) - I prefer VW conducting his own Symphony No 5 (a wonderful historic performance, with the great man also conducting Dona Nobis Pacem) to the much lauded No 4.

[asin]B000WM86UW[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 31, 2011, 06:42:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 31, 2011, 04:21:48 AM
The Haitink recording of A Sea Symphony opened my eyes to a work that I had largely ignored for c 40 years - a revelation to me.  Sarge - which Boult cycle is your favourite?

I grew up with Boult EMI. For two decades it was the only full cycle I owned. It was like an old friend and for years I didn't think I needed his earlier Decca cycle; I resisted the critical acclaim. But now that I have it I understand what all the fuss was about. It's definitely my favorite now. I even prefer the sound: more immediate, more detailed. Still, there's something very comfortable about Boult EMI, comfortable and familiar.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 02, 2011, 10:10:13 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 31, 2011, 06:42:17 AM
I grew up with Boult EMI [...]

Makes the following especially pleasant for me to read:

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 31, 2011, 03:15:25 AM
Haitink, of course. His box is 32 bucks at Amazon. He has the best sound. Even though it's my favorite cycle after Boult's I'm relunctant to recommend it because his interpretations (and they are interpretations) polarize opinion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 02, 2011, 10:12:27 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 09, 2011, 05:57:27 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ki-DagpmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Recorded 1937 and 1944

Well, rolled out the 5th today for my first ever listen to this piece, and like the 4th was immediately transported into musical bliss.  The 5th had a nice even flow to it that made the 40 minutes or so seem to evaporate.  Only when the 4th movement came around did it take a different, yet wonderful turn for me.  Imagery as below came to mind:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PBDHM5HFW14/TOKG1xHhsyI/AAAAAAAAAH0/MfMO4a496gc/s1600/chinese_junk.jpg)

Absolutely beautiful.

After only two symphonies of RVW under belt, I have noticed something additionally special about his music.  Even when considering thoughts for the upcoming day or other matters, his music, while playing, does not leave me even for a moment.  Many times with others' music I find I have to relisten or attend to at a higher level of concentration.  So far, RVW's music pentrates at a deeper level letting me enjoy his music while also considering other notions.  Pretty cool stuff. :)

Almost three months have passed, Bill, since I told you I'd send you something.

At last, I can unburden myself: I mailed it out to-day!
: )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2011, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 02, 2011, 10:12:27 AM
Almost three months have passed, Bill, since I told you I'd send you something.

At last, I can unburden myself: I mailed it out to-day!
: )

Judging by Bill's original picture, Karl, it is almost as though he was expecting the slow boat from China... :D

8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 07, 2011, 03:18:16 AM
If I had been Scott, I shouldn't have been in so great a hurry to get the South Pole, either . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on November 07, 2011, 04:06:19 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 31, 2011, 03:15:25 AM
Handley is the safe choice: good sound, thoroughly British readings, loved by many...but which I find a little staid
So, back to the old debate: Is music--as some would have it--the score?  Or are the notes on the page simply shorthand to guide the performer(s) in making the sound which is music?

My take on Handley, too.  A champion of English music, aye, but perhaps not the best of ambassadors...? 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2011, 12:12:07 PM
Looks like there's a new Elder/Halle Orchestra recording coming out and the performance is of RVW's A London Symphony and the Oboe Concerto. Should be good.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Oct11/RVW_London_CDHLL7529.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on November 08, 2011, 06:16:56 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 02, 2011, 10:12:27 AM
Almost three months have passed, Bill, since I told you I'd send you something.

At last, I can unburden myself: I mailed it out to-day!
: )

The Eagle has landed....just waiting to open the hatch.  Thanks my friend!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 08, 2011, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 07, 2011, 12:12:07 PM
Looks like there's a new Elder/Halle Orchestra recording coming out and the performance is of RVW's A London Symphony and the Oboe Concerto. Should be good.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Oct11/RVW_London_CDHLL7529.jpg)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/oct/06/vaughan-williams-london-symphony-review
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 08, 2011, 09:42:58 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 08, 2011, 09:33:36 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/oct/06/vaughan-williams-london-symphony-review

Should be a good one, Jeffrey. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 09, 2011, 07:34:04 AM
Quote from: Bogey on November 08, 2011, 06:16:56 PM
The Eagle has landed....just waiting to open the hatch.  Thanks my friend!

Splendid!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2011, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 08, 2011, 09:42:58 PM
Should be a good one, Jeffrey. :)

Yes, it was very well reviewed by the Musicweb too. I must say that I now usually play the 1913 or 1920 version as, otherwise, I really miss the wonderful music which VW excised from the 1936 definitive version (just before the close of the symphony).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 07:27:38 AM
Bustin' out No.1 thanks to Karl!

Always enjoyed Haitink for Shosty....add Vaughan Williams to the list. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on November 22, 2011, 07:36:17 AM
Quote from: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 07:27:38 AM
Bustin' out No.1 thanks to Karl!

Always enjoyed Haitink for Shosty....add Vaughan Williams to the list. :)
Reminding me that I've not given enough attention to the Haitink set since acquiring it some time ago. It must be time. Last night I listened to Hilary Hahn playing The Lark Ascending before bed and thought, "RVW's music is so beautiful that I tend to overlook it, but there's nothing wrong with beauty and I can't say that I've ever had too much of it in my life."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 07:52:52 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 22, 2011, 07:36:17 AM
Reminding me that I've not given enough attention to the Haitink set since acquiring it some time ago. It must be time. Last night I listened to Hilary Hahn playing The Lark Ascending before bed and thought, "RVW's music is so beautiful that I tend to overlook it, but there's nothing wrong with beauty and I can't say that I've ever had too much of it in my life."

Need to rip off the celo from this Boult set in front of me, David and check out his #1....about 4 minutes shorter than the Haitink.  Will be neat to hear the same orchestra, but different conductors.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 24, 2011, 03:18:40 PM
The cover CD with BBC Music Magazine for January 2012 includes Vaughan Williams conducting his 'Dona Nobis Pacem', shortly after its first performance. It is a terrifically gripping performance with greater depth than any other (Bryden Thomson's is my favourite modern version). The transfer is very good. This is a very rare example of Vaughan Williams conducting his own music.  I think that it is an even greater performance that his much admired recording of his Symphony No 4.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 24, 2011, 11:54:56 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 24, 2011, 03:18:40 PM
The cover CD with BBC Music Magazine for January 2012 includes Vaughan Williams conducting his 'Dona Nobis Pacem', shortly after its first performance. It is a terrifically gripping performance with greater depth than any other (Bryden Thomson's is my favourite modern version).

Good to learn! This 1936 recording was already released in 2007 at a Somm cd, coupled with a performance of the Fifth Symphony, RVW conducting the BBC SO in the Royal Albert Hall during a Prom Concert in 1952.

I'm going to hear Dona Nobis Pacem live in January (heard performances of the piece twice before, even in a place called The Netherlands  ;)) in Nijmegen, Concertgebouw De Vereeniging - a concert hall that survived the 1944 bombing of the city, apparantly.

                      (http://img2.shoptoit.ca/images/detail/85190000/85190491.jpg)   (http://cdn.kliknieuws.nl/img/1/2010/12/22/n/hutten-vereeniging.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 25, 2011, 01:13:28 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 24, 2011, 11:54:56 PMNijmegen, Concertgebouw De Vereeniging - a concert hall that survived the 1944 bombing of the city, apparantly.

                        (http://cdn.kliknieuws.nl/img/1/2010/12/22/n/hutten-vereeniging.jpg)


[OT: I had forgotten it, but I was there too, a few years ago, to attend a party conference... Have a splendid Christmas, everyone!]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Jared on December 25, 2011, 02:39:07 AM
^^ it's good to see that our beloved RVW has a sound following over the water in the lovely Netherlands (always knew you lot were highly cultured..  ;D )

tell me, did Bernard Haitink record much of his music because he was already popular in the Neths, or has there been an increase in his popularity because BH championed his works 20 odd years ago?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 25, 2011, 02:41:15 AM
Quote from: Jared on December 25, 2011, 02:39:07 AM
^^ it's good to see that our beloved RVW has a sound following over the water in the lovely Netherlands (always knew you lot were highly cultured..  ;D )

tell me, did Bernard Haitink record much of his music because he was already popular in the Neths, or has there been an increase in his popularity because BH championed his works 20 odd years ago?

Neither. RVW wasn't popular and isn't. His symphonies are almost never played anywhere here; except in amateur performances.  :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Jared on December 25, 2011, 02:59:36 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 25, 2011, 02:41:15 AM
Neither. RVW wasn't popular and isn't. His symphonies are almost never played anywhere here; except in amateur performances.  :(

oh dear... that's blown that theory out of the water then... and shown up my ignorance in the process..  :( :-[
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 25, 2011, 06:18:28 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 25, 2011, 01:13:28 AM

[OT: I had forgotten it, but I was there too, a few years ago, to attend a party congress... Have a splendid Christmas, everyone!]

Not a bad venue for a party meeting; great choice actually! This concert hall is the `other one' in this part of the duchy I recently moved to, apart from Musis Sacrum in Arnhem (that I visited twice for a concert, so far). Enjoy your many or not-so-many Christmases, even if you still have to wait a while for your fair copy of Brabbins' Gothic ..  ::) ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 25, 2011, 06:19:16 AM
Quote from: Jared on December 25, 2011, 02:59:36 AM
oh dear... that's blown that theory out of the water then... and shown up my ignorance in the process..  :( :-[

These parts of the North Sea shores go largely unnoticed.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 25, 2011, 11:19:22 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 25, 2011, 06:18:28 AM
Not a bad venue for a party meeting; great choice actually! This concert hall is the `other one' in this part of the duchy I recently moved to, apart from Musis Sacrum in Arnhem (that I visited twice for a concert, so far). Enjoy your many or not-so-many Christmases, even if you still have to wait a while for your fair copy of Brabbins' Gothic ..  ::) ;)


Yes, my suffering is limitless.  ;D Still, I have something to look forward to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 31, 2011, 06:22:07 AM
BBC Music Magazine (January 2012) includes a cover CD which features Vaughan Williams wonderful 1936 performance of 'Dona Nobis Pacem' - in some ways I think that this is an even greater performance that his famous recording of his Fourth Symphony. The recording was made shortly after the composer conducted the first performance. It is the same recording, I think, as the one in Christo's message above.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 31, 2011, 06:25:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 24, 2011, 03:18:40 PM
The cover CD with BBC Music Magazine for January 2012 includes Vaughan Williams conducting his 'Dona Nobis Pacem', shortly after its first performance. It is a terrifically gripping performance with greater depth than any other (Bryden Thomson's is my favourite modern version). The transfer is very good. This is a very rare example of Vaughan Williams conducting his own music.  I think that it is an even greater performance that his much admired recording of his Symphony No 4.

Quote from: vandermolen on December 31, 2011, 06:22:07 AM
BBC Music Magazine (January 2012) includes a cover CD which features Vaughan Williams wonderful 1936 performance of 'Dona Nobis Pacem' - in some ways I think that this is an even greater performance that his famous recording of his Fourth Symphony. The recording was made shortly after the composer conducted the first performance. It is the same recording, I think, as the one in Christo's message above.

We discussed this before. Didn't we?  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 31, 2011, 06:28:30 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 31, 2011, 06:25:42 AM
We discussed this before. Didn't we?  ;)

Yes, my mind is just going - a bit like HAL the computer in 2001 A Space Odyssey - or maybe we are caught in a time warp. Anyway all the best for 2012 (or is it 2011?  8))

You'll enjoy the January concert - I was delighted to hear Dona Nobis Pacem live in London a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 31, 2011, 06:34:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 31, 2011, 06:28:30 AM
Yes, my mind is just going - a bit like HAL the computer in 2001 A Space Odyssey - or maybe we are caught in a time warp. Anyway all the best for 2012 (or is it 2011?  8))

You'll enjoy the January concert - I was delighted to hear Dona Nobis Pacem live in London a couple of years ago.

;) Many thanks. We'll enter 2012 an hour later than you. Hope you don't mind our fireworks during your well deserved sleep.  ;D Yes, I look forward to the concert. I heard Dona Nobis Pacem twice before, and always considered live performances more `convincing' than a recording, with this piece. Will report afterwards. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 31, 2011, 06:38:30 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 31, 2011, 06:34:49 AM
;) Many thanks. We'll enter 2012 an hour later than you. Hope you don't mind our fireworks during your well deserved sleep.  ;D Yes, I look forward to the concert. I heard Dona Nobis Pacem twice before, and always considered live performances more `convincing' than a recording, with this piece. Will report afterwards. :)

Great - I shall look forward to hearing what you think. It is one of my favourite VW works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on December 31, 2011, 06:49:44 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 31, 2011, 06:34:49 AM
;) Many thanks. We'll enter 2012 an hour later than you. Hope you don't mind our fireworks during your well deserved sleep.  ;D Yes, I look forward to the concert. I heard Dona Nobis Pacem twice before, and always considered live performances more `convincing' than a recording, with this piece. Will report afterwards. :)

I am being remarkably stupid but since the Netherlands is an hour ahead of British Time surely you will enter 2012 an hour earlier rather than later ??? ???
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 31, 2011, 07:01:59 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 31, 2011, 06:49:44 AM
I am being remarkably stupid but since the Netherlands is an hour ahead of British Time surely you will enter 2012 an hour earlier rather than later ??? ???

:o :'( I'm the type of Dutchman that will visit the beach in order to witness a sunrise over the North Sea.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on December 31, 2011, 07:55:20 AM
No place is ever safe. I was snuffling around Europadisc, having decided to take advantage of their bargain offer on the Beghin Haydn solo keyboard box, hoping to find something promising that would push me up into the 'free postage' bracket. And I came across this box:

(http://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/1242039695_CHAN105293.jpg)

Apart from the Antartica, I know nothing of RVW's film music, so this box seemed worth a shot, particularly at this price, with a 40% reduction:

http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/77230/Vaughan_Williams_-_Film_Music_%28Collectors_Edition%29.htm (http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/77230/Vaughan_Williams_-_Film_Music_%28Collectors_Edition%29.htm)

Have I bought wisely?

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 31, 2011, 08:36:34 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 31, 2011, 07:55:20 AM
No place is ever safe. I was snuffling around Europadisc, having decided to take advantage of their bargain offer on the Beghin Haydn solo keyboard box, hoping to find something promisiong that would push me up into the 'free postage' bracket. And I came across this box:

(http://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/1242039695_CHAN105293.jpg)

Apart from the Antartica, I know nothing of RVW's film music, so this box seemed worth a shot, particularly at this price, with a 40% reduction:

http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/77230/Vaughan_Williams_-_Film_Music_%28Collectors_Edition%29.htm (http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/77230/Vaughan_Williams_-_Film_Music_%28Collectors_Edition%29.htm)

Have I bought wisely?

Oh yes - a great purchase! Also Chandos have included all three booklets from the single release CDs.The complete Scott of the Antarctic music is a highlight but so are 49th Parallel, Coastal Command, Joanna Godden and Dim Little Island has a fine arrangement of 5 Variants on Dives and Lazarus. You wont regret this purchase.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on December 31, 2011, 12:35:58 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 31, 2011, 08:36:34 AM
You wont regret this purchase.

That's what I was hoping to hear! Thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 01, 2012, 01:30:34 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 31, 2011, 12:35:58 PM
That's what I was hoping to hear! Thanks.

My pleasure - let us know what you think. There was also a very good Marco Polo single CD of VW's film music, but the Chandos is much more comprehensive (you get a much fuller treatment of the atmospheric ' The England of Elizabeth'  for example). 'The Story of a Flemish Farm' is also very interesting. Look out for the influence of the 'Dead Man's Kit' Episode (track 6 of CD 3) with the Epilogue of Symphony No 6 - although the film music includes a beautiful lyrical theme. Nice photos of the great man too in the booklets.  I have always liked the 'Joanna Godden' music and was delighted when a new recording came out.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on January 11, 2012, 12:49:31 AM
It's always nice to discover new pleasures :) After my recent breakthrough with choral music, I decided to give the Sea Symphony a listen. I listened to recordings by Haitink, Handley, Thomson, Previn and Boult (EMI).

For the most part, the qualities of the various recordings add up to make them about of equal worth. I'll only mention the exceptions:

Handley was exceptionally convincing in the first movement. He produced a swashbuckling "Sea Hawk" energy to make me overlook the bathetic qualities of the words (not a big Whitman fan here). Sadly, after this Handley loses a bit of energy until midway through the finale; the end of "On the beach at night" really needs more molding, and I believe his scherzo to be the slowest on record. He also has the least satisfactory sound of the selections, being colourless and a bit overreverberant. Still, definitely worth hearing for any admirer of this work.

Thomson I thought would fit with the others into the "pretty good" category - until he came to "O thou transcendent" and rushed past it as though it was nothing much. In all the other recordings, this is a big "goosebumps" moment (no wonder it was the title of the documentary), but not here - this is a big problem of interpretation that rules Thomson out for me.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on January 11, 2012, 03:27:22 AM
For such a (relatively) divisive work, I am also surprised at how most cycles seem to nail this work. It's often one of the highlights of any conductor's traversal. I wonder why? I suppose that perhaps there are a lot of very well-drilled choirs who have lived in this idiom, and can somewhat lead the conductor's vision of the work in a way that an orchestra alone could not.

Daniel on Naxos is also very good, but my favourites remain Haitink, Handley and Boult (both). It's the biggest success of the Haitink set in particular in part because of those wonderful sonics. Handley is less driven and committed than Boult, but it feels to be quite a thoughtful take on the work for me and offers an appealingly different take without being odd. Perhaps an introspective Sea Symphony, if that is even possible.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 11, 2012, 03:54:12 AM
Quote from: Lethevich Dmitriyevna Pettersonova on January 11, 2012, 03:27:22 AM
For such a (relatively) divisive work, I am also surprised at how most cycles seem to nail this work.

Perhaps the divisiveness is a matter of what it is, rather than how it was composedRVW had a native knack for the choral/oratorio tradition, and I don't think he went out of his way to write a "tough nut" here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 11, 2012, 10:09:05 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on January 11, 2012, 12:49:31 AM
It's always nice to discover new pleasures :) After my recent breakthrough with choral music, I decided to give the Sea Symphony a listen. I listened to recordings by Haitink, Handley, Thomson, Previn and Boult (EMI).

For the most part, the qualities of the various recordings add up to make them about of equal worth. I'll only mention the exceptions:

Handley was exceptionally convincing in the first movement. He produced a swashbuckling "Sea Hawk" energy to make me overlook the bathetic qualities of the words (not a big Whitman fan here). Sadly, after this Handley loses a bit of energy until midway through the finale; the end of "On the beach at night" really needs more molding, and I believe his scherzo to be the slowest on record. He also has the least satisfactory sound of the selections, being colourless and a bit overreverberant. Still, definitely worth hearing for any admirer of this work.

Thomson I thought would fit with the others into the "pretty good" category - until he came to "O thou transcendent" and rushed past it as though it was nothing much. In all the other recordings, this is a big "goosebumps" moment (no wonder it was the title of the documentary), but not here - this is a big problem of interpretation that rules Thomson out for me.

I really like Hickox/EMI, Boult/EMI, and Haitink/EMI. Contrary to your opinion, I like Thomson's too, but A Sea Symphony isn't one of my favorites of the cycle, so I can easily skip over it, but it's one of those works that does hold together quite well in my opinion. My favorite movement is the last one, The Explorers: Grave e molto adagio. At nearly 30 minutes, this explores such a wide range of emotions. I love it. How do you feel about the other symphonies?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on January 13, 2012, 04:57:04 PM
Twice through this piece of vinyl tonight....

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_1696.jpg)

This on the back of the sleeve:

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_1698.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: John Copeland on January 14, 2012, 09:12:22 AM
Quote from: Bogey on January 13, 2012, 04:57:04 PM
This on the back of the sleeve:
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_1698.jpg)

What a fabulously constructed picture of the big shaggy composer.  :)
I think I will play him tonight too.  By Previn.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 09:28:19 AM
Quote from: Bogey on January 13, 2012, 04:57:04 PM
Twice through this piece of vinyl tonight....

Thanks, Bogey. Quite enjoyed that profile of the shaggy dog  ;D  Do you like the Fourth? It's one of his tougher nuts but appealed to me on first listen. In fact, bowled me over. Love it still.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on January 14, 2012, 09:57:06 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 09:28:19 AM
Thanks, Bogey. Quite enjoyed that profile of the shaggy dog  ;D  Do you like the Fourth? It's one of his tougher nuts but appealed to me on first listen. In fact, bowled me over. Love it still.

Sarge

Yup....but then I love film music. ;D  He waists no time with the Allegro opening.  The capstone was nothing short of brilliant.  This is one of those pieces that you can loop, start at any point, and still lap it up. 

Just popped in the Boult 4th....BOOM!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on January 14, 2012, 10:03:35 AM
Quote from: Scots John on January 14, 2012, 09:12:22 AM
What a fabulously constructed picture of the big shaggy composer.  :)
I think I will play him tonight too.  By Previn.

We're cool!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 11:33:36 AM
Quote from: Bogey on January 14, 2012, 09:57:06 AM
Yup....but then I love film music. ;D  He waists no time with the Allegro opening.  The capstone was nothing short of brilliant.  This is one of those pieces that you can loop, start at any point, and still lap it up. 

Yeah, I know what you mean. I first heard it in a Bernstein Young People's concert where he played the transition from the Scherzo on into the Finale. Just that hooked me. A few months later I finally heard the entire symphony on the radio.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 14, 2012, 01:55:00 PM
Haitink's Sea Symphony was a revelation to me (after c 40 years relative indifference to the work!). Loved the Mitropolous Symphony No 4 LP sleeve and great 'shaggy dog' notes. Mitropolous is even better than VW I think as a conductor of that work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on March 08, 2012, 12:54:12 PM
Has anybody heard Colin Davis's 4th? Also has it been issued outside of this box (http://www.amazon.com/Boston-Symphony-Orchestra-Centennial-Celebration/dp/B0013L92WC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331243519&sr=8-1) at any point?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on March 08, 2012, 02:40:56 PM
I have just returned from a concert in Glasgow given by the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra conducted by Andrew Manze. The Britten Cello Symphony(a work I have never warmed to), played by Alban Gerhardt, was followed by RVW's 6th Symphony. To my ears the performance was a curate's egg, good in parts, but under-characterised in others. The finale was too loud (of course ???) and lacked that feeling of icy desolation possessed by the best performances. Overall I was insufficiently gripped by the sheer savagery of the piece.

I have-exceptionally for me- six versions of the 6th: Boult(1953), Boult(1967), Thomson, Handley, Hickox and Andrew Davis.........and it is the Davis I still prefer; quite the best work he has ever done on cd in my opinion.

Still....good to hear RVW again in Scotland :) Next month the same team will be doing the 4th and 5th symphonies in the same concert :-\
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2012, 02:48:25 PM
Quote from: Lethevich on March 08, 2012, 12:54:12 PM
Has anybody heard Colin Davis's 4th? Also has it been issued outside of this box (http://www.amazon.com/Boston-Symphony-Orchestra-Centennial-Celebration/dp/B0013L92WC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331243519&sr=8-1) at any point?

I haven't heard it but thanks for pointing this out. I once asked about Davis and VW. I wondered if he'd conducted VW much, or at all. Nice to see more proof that he hasn't entirely ignored the composer.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2012, 02:51:13 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 08, 2012, 02:40:56 PM
Still....good to hear RVW again in Scotland :) Next month the same team will be doing the 4th and 5th symphonies in the same concert :-\

That would be worth a trip to Scotland. Well, that and I've suddenly got the jones for some haggis  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elnimio on March 08, 2012, 04:06:46 PM
His fourth symphony is my favorite symphony of all time.


There are no appropriate words to describe it, in my opinion.


That fugal ending in the fourth movement is just  :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2012, 04:28:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2012, 02:51:13 PM
. . . and I've suddenly got the jones for some haggis  ;)

And they scoff at the idea of miracles!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on March 09, 2012, 04:43:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 09, 2012, 04:28:42 AM
And they scoff at the idea of miracles!

Very seldom eat the stuff myself ;D Contrary to ridiculous rumour and stereotyping it is by no means all that popular in Scotland.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on March 11, 2012, 04:33:16 PM

Technically, isn't haggis just sausage on a larger scale?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 12, 2012, 03:40:50 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 11, 2012, 04:33:16 PM
Technically, isn't haggis just sausage on a larger scale?

Well, the Pfälzer (Palatinate) form of haggis is: Saumagen (sow's stomach).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/saumagen.jpg)

The contents (the ingredients that are stuffed into the stomach) are more palatable than haggis: pork, diced potatoes and carrots, onions, spices. After it's slow cooked in hot (not boiling) water, it's usually sliced and fried, served with potatoes and sauerkraut:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/saumagensliced.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 12, 2012, 04:28:00 AM
Job! Where's my Job!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on March 12, 2012, 05:26:41 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 12, 2012, 04:28:00 AM
Job! Where's my Job!

Yeah! What he said!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 12, 2012, 05:31:31 AM
In curious timing, mention was made in yestermorn's sermon of the Book of Job.

Earlier in the service, the minister invited the congregation to think of questions we would ask of God. Mine was, "What day was Beethoven born, really?'
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: snyprrr on March 12, 2012, 06:56:27 AM
I'm looking for an alternative String Quartet No.2.

I have the EMI cd (with Hugh Bean?) which I believe is a much older recording. I heard the Naxos samples.

I'm just wondering about that opening viola, when the chords come in. I just feel like I want a little more...mm... atmosphere? I thought the Naxos sounded just like the EMI.

That pretty much leaves the Medici on Nimbus (which has one very positive review on Amazon), and the Hyperion.

Anyone?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on March 12, 2012, 07:07:58 AM
I have never thought about such a small detail as only the opening 30 secs or so, but as I hear:

The Nash has the most atmosphere in the recording, but there is also a rustic, slightly nasal quality which prioritises forward momentum, but with flexibility. The Maggini are somewhat clinical, the English Quartet (on Alto) are slightly more reticent, clouded, fragile - quite an 80s UK sound which was often because the ensembles of the time weren't quite assured enough - but this is no issue here. The latter may be what you are looking for, but no interp here is radically distinct from the others.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: snyprrr on March 12, 2012, 06:20:11 PM
Quote from: Lethevich on March 12, 2012, 07:07:58 AM
I have never thought about such a small detail as only the opening 30 secs or so, but as I hear:

The Nash has the most atmosphere in the recording, but there is also a rustic, slightly nasal quality which prioritises forward momentum, but with flexibility. The Maggini are somewhat clinical, the English Quartet (on Alto) are slightly more reticent, clouded, fragile - quite an 80s UK sound which was often because the ensembles of the time weren't quite assured enough - but this is no issue here. The latter may be what you are looking for, but no interp here is radically distinct from the others.

You make the Nash sound juicy! Both them and the Medici are pretty cheap. It's been quite a while since I sought out a 'second' of... anything!, but SQ 2 does have quite a visionary quality, especially in the slow movement,... I remember visiting castles in the UK (or was Denmark? :-\), sitting high on the hill on a windy summer's day,... just the kind of hyperion cover one loves! That the SQ 2.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 13, 2012, 05:53:52 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 12, 2012, 05:31:31 AM
Earlier in the service, the minister invited the congregation to think of questions we would ask of God. Mine was, "What day was Beethoven born, really?'
:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 13, 2012, 06:02:33 AM
And: Does Schroeder know?

Incidentally, and although it was not the ideal environment, I listened to the Hickox recording of Job yesterday, in the car. Love it . . . made a more powerful impression than my initial listen to the Handley, which does not necessarily reflect on Handley . . . my ears may just have been elsewhere that day.

EDIT :: gaffed the conductor, tchah!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: snyprrr on April 16, 2012, 06:49:30 AM
Quote from: Lethevich on March 12, 2012, 07:07:58 AM
I have never thought about such a small detail as only the opening 30 secs or so, but as I hear:

The Nash has the most atmosphere in the recording, but there is also a rustic, slightly nasal quality which prioritises forward momentum, but with flexibility. The Maggini are somewhat clinical, the English Quartet (on Alto) are slightly more reticent, clouded, fragile - quite an 80s UK sound which was often because the ensembles of the time weren't quite assured enough - but this is no issue here. The latter may be what you are looking for, but no interp here is radically distinct from the others.

I got the Medici (Nimbus), and, it's very special indeed! I really enjoyed their Saint'Saens, and this issue seems to solidify their  turn of the century credibility. (They also have a Haydn Op.64 on EMI)

Comparing with the Music Group of London (EMI; mid-'70s), the Medici start with a much more nuanced opening. Right after the opening solo, the entry of the rest is taken much smoother than the MGL. Generally, the Medici just have a very burnished and...mm.... it's just a very solid sound... just like I remember their Saint-Saens.

I do have to register some shock here at RVW's slow movement. As I was comparing the two, it dawned on me that this slow movement is the thickest, most... almost a grinding of keys.... can anyone clarify for me?,... there are so many harmonic twists here as to make the MGL seem to burst their intonation... the Medicis really navigate this section very well, but one can still sense the absolutely beyond-Reger WTF key torture. It just seems that the players struggle to express RVW's intentions.

I have always loved this slow movement, but I'm taken aback now by its utter thickness in the climaxes. The MGL really seem to struggle here, and the Medici do let you know that they are navigating hazardous waterways. Surely someone else has noticed this.

Now I'm very very keen to hear the Hyperion. I know that these Faure players will surely have something to say about these thick textures.

Anyhow, the Medici certainly have achieved something here, and are highly recommendable in this small field. I will have to try the Hyperion, though, to be absolutely sure!


btw- I used to have SQ 1 on the Britten Quartet EMI disc, and remember it wasn't what I wanted at the time, but now I find it revealed as a very nice Ravelian concoction. The 'Phantasy' Quintet is just a plain nice piece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2012, 08:54:13 AM
symphonies 4,5 and 6 are being performed in the same Prom concert this year.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 20, 2012, 10:19:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 20, 2012, 08:54:13 AM
symphonies 4,5 and 6 are being performed in the same Prom concert this year.

Great news! When? (Wish I could be there, the Fifth is the only of these I ever heard live, but only by a (good) amateur orchestra. Would love to hear the Sixth especially!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 20, 2012, 10:55:16 AM
Très cool!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2012, 12:02:36 PM
Quote from: Christo on April 20, 2012, 10:19:08 AM
Great news! When? (Wish I could be there, the Fifth is the only of these I ever heard live, but only by a (good) amateur orchestra. Would love to hear the Sixth especially!  :)

16th August (Thursday).  Would be great if you could make it over (especially as you were apparently 'sunbathing on a beach' when the Gothic Symphony was performed last year  :o) - time to book up your ticket on the Stenna Hollandica.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 20, 2012, 12:51:05 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 20, 2012, 12:02:36 PM
16th August (Thursday).  Would be great if you could make it over (especially as you were apparently 'sunbathing on a beach' when the Gothic Symphony was performed last year  :o) - time to book up your ticket on the Stenna Hollandica.  :D

I wasn't "sunbathing", I was, heroïcally, crossing the Alps that very day.  :o With my elephant (Volvo). And made it al the way to Tuscany, not a place for sunbathing either.  >:D  ;)

I did pay a visit to the Royal Albert Hall in advance, during a short stay in London in May, just to sniff the atmosphere and get an idea of what all true Brianites went through, last July.  8) This Summer, I plan to stay in Turkey for three weeks, but I'll be back in time. Perhaps, perhaps ...  ::) Keep us informed!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2012, 02:49:50 PM
Quote from: Christo on April 20, 2012, 12:51:05 PM
I wasn't "sunbathing", I was, heroïcally, crossing the Alps that very day.  :o With my elephant (Volvo). And made it al the way to Tuscany, not a place for sunbathing either.  >:D  ;)

I did pay a visit to the Royal Albert Hall in advance, during a short stay in London in May, just to sniff the atmosphere and get an idea of what all true Brianites went through, last July.  8) This Summer, I plan to stay in Turkey for three weeks, but I'll be back in time. Perhaps, perhaps ...  ::) Keep us informed!

OK - will do.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on April 21, 2012, 03:12:01 AM
Well, I have already had the experience of attending the BBC Scottish SO performances of the 4th, 5th and 6th conducted by Andrew Manze....but in two concerts rather than the single one.

Manze's 6th last month was a bit of a curate's egg (good in parts), his 4th was magnificent (actually the third time, I think, that I have head a live performance in the last three years; Oundjian with the RSNO was one of the others), his 5th was good apart from a tendency to wallow in the slow movement and scherzo. THe BBC Scottish SO is a very fine orchestra, as will be clear from their recordings, with magnificent woodwind and brass, and, I am told by their former MD, have a tradition of doing the 5th well. Manze clearly adores RVW and it will be a great Proms Concert. It is so welcome that Roger Wright-who loves British music-is getting it into the Proms these days.

Every time I hear the 4th I am struck again by what a revolutionary work it must have seemed in the context of the British music of its time when so much else was still in thrall to the influence of Elgar. I can think of little like it in British music of the early 1930s.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 21, 2012, 06:55:42 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 09, 2012, 04:43:47 AM
Very seldom eat the stuff myself ;D Contrary to ridiculous rumour and stereotyping it is by no means all that popular in Scotland.
And we don't just eat leeks,welsh rarebit,cawl & lava bread;although they are very popular here & love all four of them! :)
  I remember as a youngster,the Dandy & Beano comics used to potray haggis as running around on legs & Scotsman as huge & always carrying large cabers!
Now where's my harp?!!! ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on April 21, 2012, 07:53:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 21, 2012, 06:55:42 AM
And we don't just eat leeks,welsh rarebit,cawl & lava bread;although they are very popular here & love all four of them! :)
  I remember as a youngster,the Dandy & Beano comics used to potray haggis as running around on legs & Scotsman as huge & always carrying large cabers!
Now where's my harp?!!! ;D

Very seldom eat haggis (and not for choice), never worn a kilt, never tossed a caber (which is what you do with them-they are far too heavy to carry ;D), don't read Robert Burns poetry, don't much like the sound of bagpipes, and hate west of Scotland comedy (which the BBC thinks is all that comes out of Scotland).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kishnevi on April 21, 2012, 11:20:49 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 21, 2012, 07:53:24 AM
Very seldom eat haggis (and not for choice), never worn a kilt, never tossed a caber (which is what you do with them-they are far too heavy to carry ;D), don't read Robert Burns poetry, don't much like the sound of bagpipes, and hate west of Scotland comedy (which the BBC thinks is all that comes out of Scotland).

And if I remember correctly,  you're not a whisky drinker, correct?  Are you sure you're a Scot?

While it's true that I've never done any of those things (other than drink the whisky),  I can at least point to the fact that I've been in Scotland for exactly five days (and two of them not full days) on one of those package tours of Britain where you see all the highlights in twelve days and not much of anything else (and sometimes not much of the highlights--Glasgow, for instance, was limited to afternoon rush hour traffic and running through Kelvingrove Museum just before closing time before heading off to our hotel)--what I call the "If you look closely, you'll see Stonehenge on the left" type of tour.

So I have a reason not to have tossed cabers and wear kilts...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: xochitl on April 28, 2012, 09:28:33 PM
so ive been getting into V-W after hearing the 3rd symphony.  made a tremendous impression on me.  so far ive heard the string quartets and quintet, symphony #4,  and lark ascending

good stuff
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2012, 06:41:47 AM
Excellent, and welcome, xochitl!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 29, 2012, 06:53:16 AM
Quote from: xochitl on April 28, 2012, 09:28:33 PM
so ive been getting into V-W after hearing the 3rd symphony.  made a tremendous impression on me.  so far ive heard the string quartets and quintet, symphony #4,  and lark ascending

good stuff

Don't stop there, Xochitl!  ;)

You really can't go wrong with your RVW exploration at this point, you already have a nice collection for an introduction. More symphonies, I like #2 and 8, some choral (Dona Nobos Pacem) and of course his Thomas Tallis Fantasia
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 11:26:37 AM
Quote from: xochitl on April 28, 2012, 09:28:33 PM
so ive been getting into V-W after hearing the 3rd symphony.  made a tremendous impression on me.  so far ive heard the string quartets and quintet, symphony #4,  and lark ascending

good stuff

Vaughan Williams is in my top 5 favorite composers and someone I never get tired of listening to. I'm glad you're discovering his music. His symphonies are in my estimate some of the most imaginative of all 20th Century music. They are all distinctive worlds unto themselves. Outside of the symphonies, RVW was still a strong composer with works like Job, A Masque for Dancing, The Lark Ascending, Flos Campi, Dona nobis pacem, Five Tudor Portraits, the Tuba Concerto, Concerto for Two Pianos, Partita for String Orchestra, Five Variants on 'Dives and Lazarus', and Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis.

Hope you enjoy the music as much as I have!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on May 01, 2012, 03:32:01 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 21, 2012, 11:20:49 AM
And if I remember correctly,  you're not a whisky drinker, correct?  Are you sure you're a Scot?

While it's true that I've never done any of those things (other than drink the whisky),  I can at least point to the fact that I've been in Scotland for exactly five days (and two of them not full days) on one of those package tours of Britain where you see all the highlights in twelve days and not much of anything else (and sometimes not much of the highlights--Glasgow, for instance, was limited to afternoon rush hour traffic and running through Kelvingrove Museum just before closing time before heading off to our hotel)--what I call the "If you look closely, you'll see Stonehenge on the left" type of tour.

So I have a reason not to have tossed cabers and wear kilts...

You are correct about the whisky :)  And, yes, I am quite sure that I am a Scot :) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 03:33:54 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 01, 2012, 03:32:01 PM
You are correct about the whisky :)  And, yes, I am quite sure that I am a Scot :) :)

Let's get back on topic, shall we? >:(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on May 01, 2012, 04:20:38 PM
I grovel in abject apology :(

(But don't let cilgwyn back into this thread ;D)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 01, 2012, 04:20:38 PM
I grovel in abject apology :(

(But don't let cilgwyn back into this thread ;D)

No, the Welsh aren't welcome here. ;) :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kishnevi on May 01, 2012, 05:16:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 03:33:54 PM
Let's get back on topic, shall we? >:(

Threads have topics on GMG?  Well, the things one learns!

Thread duty, albeit a bit extra-musical. 
This is primarily for anyone who has access to EMI's 30 CD RVW: Collector's Edition box.  I happened to take it to review the track listings and noticed the photograph of RVW which appears at the beginning.  I'd be interested in knowing where and when it was taken   He seems to be sitting on a bench in front of the window of what might be a kitchen, breakfast parlor, or pub (there seem to be serving dishes of some sort placed on the inside window ledge) and is wearing:

a blazer (wool, I think)
over a sweater vest
over a sweater
over a just barely glimpsed shirt (collar--no tie that I can see).

My interest was piqued.  Did he always wear several layers of clothing, and why?

Thanks for any info.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 05:52:08 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 01, 2012, 05:16:27 PM
Threads have topics on GMG?  Well, the things one learns!

Thread duty, albeit a bit extra-musical. 
This is primarily for anyone who has access to EMI's 30 CD RVW: Collector's Edition box.  I happened to take it to review the track listings and noticed the photograph of RVW which appears at the beginning.  I'd be interested in knowing where and when it was taken   He seems to be sitting on a bench in front of the window of what might be a kitchen, breakfast parlor, or pub (there seem to be serving dishes of some sort placed on the inside window ledge) and is wearing:

a blazer (wool, I think)
over a sweater vest
over a sweater
over a just barely glimpsed shirt (collar--no tie that I can see).

My interest was piqued.  Did he always wear several layers of clothing, and why?

Thanks for any info.

I may have seen this picture. Anyway, I'm not sure why RVW wore layers of clothing, but every picture I've seen he has two or three layers of clothes on. Don't know why exactly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on May 01, 2012, 05:59:00 PM
You two gentlemen appear to reside in Florida and Georgia respectively.

May I impress upon you that Great Britain does not enjoy the tropical climate enjoyed by the southern states of the USA. Uncle Ralph was probably very cold at the time and was dressed up for the weather conditions.

I don't know when the photograph was taken but RVW liked to go for long walks in the countryside, often accompanied by his chum Gustav Holst. Although the South of England is, usually, warmer than Scotland(eek....sorry to mention that again ;D), it can still be a trifle chilly. RVW habitually wore a waistcoat as part of a three-piece suit.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 06:08:37 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 01, 2012, 05:59:00 PM
You two gentlemen appear to reside in Florida and Georgia respectively.

May I impress upon you that Great Britain does not enjoy the tropical climate enjoyed by the southern states of the USA. Uncle Ralph was probably very cold at the time and was dressed up for the weather conditions.

I don't know when the photograph was taken but RVW liked to go for long walks in the countryside, often accompanied by his chum Gustav Holst. Although the South of England is, usually, warmer than Scotland(eek....sorry to mention that again ;D), it can still be a trifle chilly. RVW habitually wore a waistcoat as part of a three-piece suit.

I don't know if you call living in a subtropical climate enjoyable. The problem with weather in Georgia is it changes very quickly. The summers are usually hot and humid. The coldest months are December-February, but this year was surprisingly warm here whereas last year around that time we had two different snow storms that really put a damper on activity. Let's just say we're not used to the snow and more importantly the ice that follows with it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kishnevi on May 01, 2012, 06:15:16 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 01, 2012, 05:59:00 PM
You two gentlemen appear to reside in Florida and Georgia respectively.

May I impress upon you that Great Britain does not enjoy the tropical climate enjoyed by the southern states of the USA. Uncle Ralph was probably very cold at the time and was dressed up for the weather conditions.

I don't know when the photograph was taken but RVW liked to go for long walks in the countryside, often accompanied by his chum Gustav Holst. Although the South of England is, usually, warmer than Scotland(eek....sorry to mention that again ;D), it can still be a trifle chilly. RVW habitually wore a waistcoat as part of a three-piece suit.

It was wearing the two sweaters over each other and under a wool blazer that caught my attention.  I know it can get cold in the UK--but cold enough to wear all that? (this wasn't a three piece suit--it was clearly a sweater vest over another sweater, and everything he wore was a bit rumpled and obviously, in terms of that era,  casual clothing).

Admittedly,  in South Florida we consider anything under 65 F to be extreme cold,  but in MI's part of Georgia,  while it can humid and sultry in summer,  can get chilly enough, although it usually gets snow no more than once a year and sometimes not even that much. (I went to college in Atlanta,  which is in the foothills of the Appalachians and therefore actually more mountainous than much of the Highlands).

And my one day in the Highlands, in July,  the temps reach over 80 F.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 06:22:30 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 01, 2012, 06:15:16 PMAdmittedly,  in South Florida we consider anything under 65 F to be extreme cold,  but in MI's part of Georgia,  while it can humid and sultry in summer,  can get chilly enough, although it usually gets snow no more than once a year and sometimes not even that much. (I went to college in Atlanta,  which is in the foothills of the Appalachians and therefore actually more mountainous than much of the Highlands).

And my one day in the Highlands, in July,  the temps reach over 80 F.

Ah, yes, the Appalachian Mountains. Home of raccoons, bears, hillbillies, and my sleeping bag that I accidently left behind on a camping trip about 15 years ago. :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 07:48:39 PM
It seems that RVW's 4th and 6th symphonies seem to still give some listeners problems. I find these two symphonies to be two of the most compelling symphonies written by a British composer. I really like all of RVW's symphonies, but it seems that these two symphonies' violence nature sparks something inside of me. How could someone so humble and kind, compose something so ominous? Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: raduneo on May 01, 2012, 08:21:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 07:48:39 PM
It seems that RVW's 4th and 6th symphonies seem to still give some listeners problems. I find these two symphonies to be two of the most compelling symphonies written by a British composer. I really like all of RVW's symphonies, but it seems that these two symphonies' violence nature sparks something inside of me. How could someone so humble and kind, compose something so ominous? Any thoughts?

Well, since the 4th is a war symphony, perhaps he is trying to portray war for what it is: ominous, threatning and full of despair. It never gets lyrical: the slow movement is merely subdued danger. I think the subject matter dictates it. Likewise, the 6th is related to the war. I think the subject matter calls for it.

I don't see why they would be so difficult for newcomers. Given good interpretations (Bernstein for the 4th, Boult for 6th?), they are fairly tame works, compared to other dissonant symphonies. I find Shostakovich's 4th considerably more troublesome, Prokofiev 2nd also more dissonant, not to mention Simpson! Given that the person has familiarized itself with the Rite of Spring, they should be ready for these in my opinion. These are beautiful works indeed! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 08:55:19 PM
Quote from: raduneo on May 01, 2012, 08:21:39 PM
Well, since the 4th is a war symphony, perhaps he is trying to portray war for what it is: ominous, threatning and full of despair. It never gets lyrical: the slow movement is merely subdued danger. I think the subject matter dictates it. Likewise, the 6th is related to the war. I think the subject matter calls for it.

I don't see why they would be so difficult for newcomers. Given good interpretations (Bernstein for the 4th, Boult for 6th?), they are fairly tame works, compared to other dissonant symphonies. I find Shostakovich's 4th considerably more troublesome, Prokofiev 2nd also more dissonant, not to mention Simpson! Given that the person has familiarized itself with the Rite of Spring, they should be ready for these in my opinion. These are beautiful works indeed! :)

What's interesting and perhaps of important note is the composer himself said there was no program in either symphony. In fact, in the documentary O Thou Transcendent: The Life of Vaughan Williams one commentator points out that the frustrations he was feeling from his first marriage resulted in the turbulent feelings expressed in his 4th symphony.

As for the 6th, when questioned about if there was a possibility that the theme of the work dealt with WWII, RVW replied "Can't a man just write a piece of music?"

By the way, I know there are plenty of dissonant symphonies in the 20th Century, this is, after all, my favorite period of music, but my point is these works, for RVW, were aggressive and bitter in complete contrast with a lot of his other works, which don't express these kinds of feelings at all.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on May 01, 2012, 11:39:45 PM
Quote from: raduneo on May 01, 2012, 08:21:39 PM

I don't see why they [the 4th and 6th symphonies] would be so difficult for newcomers.

But isn't it true that it's invariably hard to understand why others struggle with what we find easy? As Solzhenitsin's Ivan Denisovitch says: 'How can a man who's warm understand a man who's cold?' I've been listening to RVW for decades, but still can't enjoy the 4th and 6th. The sheer bleakness of them leaves me feeling low-spirited. On the other hand the poetry of Ted Hughes can also be bleak, but it leaves me buoyant and energised. There's no accounting for these personal contradictions as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2012, 04:00:44 AM
Indeed.

And after all, for practically any piece of music there can be a listener who finds it somehow difficult.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on May 02, 2012, 05:40:26 AM
I just don't know how much of the VW 'image' to believe. Was he really "humble and kind" ??? ??? I don't know. Many people liked him, that's certainly true. He had the 'image' of a somewhat dotty, old chap.....but he wasn't always old and, it is clear, was a man of passion as well as very high intelligence. Did he forget how many sweaters he already had on when he donned another? Hmmmm.

However, I was grateful for the insights in the weather conditions to be expected at different times of the year in both Georgia and Florida ;D ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elnimio on May 02, 2012, 07:46:41 AM
I found the 4th and 6th symphonies much more accessible than his other symphonies, at first, but that's because I like dark, turbulent, music in general. But then again, Variations of a Theme by Tallis is my favorite piece of all time, so...  :-\
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 08:01:36 AM
Quote from: Elnimio on May 02, 2012, 07:46:41 AM
I found the 4th and 6th symphonies much more accessible than his other symphonies, at first, but that's because I like dark, turbulent, music in general. But then again, Variations of a Theme by Tallis is my favorite piece of all time, so...  :-\

I never found the 4th and 6th symphonies inaccessible. In fact, I don't find any of RVW's symphonies inaccessible. I like them all for different reasons.

By the way, I can't say I'm a big fan of Mennin, I prefer his rival Schuman. :) I think Mennin was just a jealous, bitter person.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elnimio on May 02, 2012, 08:06:59 AM
Schuman's music mostly bores me to tears with its Academicism. Mennin had much more passion and fire in his writing. His piano concerto is unlike anything an American has ever composed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 08:17:50 AM
Quote from: Elnimio on May 02, 2012, 08:06:59 AMSchuman's music mostly bores me to tears...

That's funny, because that's how I feel about Mennin's music. :) Mennin doesn't hold a candle to the power of Schuman's music. Mennin will be remembered for one thing: being a jealous jerk.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elnimio on May 02, 2012, 08:25:19 AM
...If you say so.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2012, 08:27:59 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 08:17:50 AM
. . . Mennin will be remembered for one thing: being a jealous jerk.

Ah, heard both sides of the story, have you?

BTW, your post is not only presumptuous, but horrendously off topic. (Just saying.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: raduneo on May 02, 2012, 08:44:24 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 01, 2012, 11:39:45 PM
But isn't it true that it's invariably hard to understand why others struggle with what we find easy? As Solzhenitsin's Ivan Denisovitch says: 'How can a man who's warm understand a man who's cold?' I've been listening to RVW for decades, but still can't enjoy the 4th and 6th. The sheer bleakness of them leaves me feeling low-spirited. On the other hand the poetry of Ted Hughes can also be bleak, but it leaves me buoyant and energised. There's no accounting for these personal contradictions as far as I can see.

That is a beautiful quote! :) You do have a point. It's just that sometimes the line between not liking and not understanding is not very clear. I say this because it happened to me many times. For example, I used to completely dislike Shostakovich, Bartok, Brahms and Mozart for the logest time - and I had made great efforts to try and get into their music, but it wasn't working in the least. Then somehow it clicked all of a sudden (not at the same time for all of them). I now love them (the first three actually make it to my top 10 composers list).

I'm not saying this is the case with you and these symphonies!! I am not you, so I could never assume anything.

When I hear the 4th, I also hear elements of exagerated militarism - perhaps even parody, energy and a bit of mistery. (only the Bernstein recording clicks for me: I find that it never drags and has a sense of vitality that I like.)

His 6th symphony has a very mysterious and mystical air, in the likes of the Schubert Unfinished.

But as Mirror Image suggests, maybe these don't need to be associated to war to be enjoyed.

I was saying I find them dissoant COMPARED to some other dissonant modern symphonies. Simpson's symphonies I find SO dissonant to the point there is practically no human element left, and it (literally) leaves me cold (but I hear that is part of the intention). Xenakis can get extremely dissonant quite often also.

You are right though, in the end each person has different tastes! What would the world be if everyone liked all the same things?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: raduneo on May 02, 2012, 08:55:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 08:55:19 PM
What's interesting and perhaps of important note is the composer himself said there was no program in either symphony. In fact, in the documentary O Thou Transcendent: The Life of Vaughan Williams one commentator points out that the frustrations he was feeling from his first marriage resulted in the turbulent feelings expressed in his 4th symphony.

As for the 6th, when questioned about if there was a possibility that the theme of the work dealt with WWII, RVW replied "Can't a man just write a piece of music?"

By the way, I know there are plenty of dissonant symphonies in the 20th Century, this is, after all, my favorite period of music, but my point is these works, for RVW, were aggressive and bitter in complete contrast with a lot of his other works, which don't express these kinds of feelings at all.

I believe it is my favorite period of music as well. I seem to gravitate towards it! :)

Indeed, perhaps they don't need to be viewed as "War Symphonies" to be enjoyed. I had an easier time getting into Shostakovich without thinking so much about the program.

I wouln't say they are in complete contrast with his other works. I hear the sense of danger and menace in the 3rd smphony already! It's subdued and not as overt, but there is definitely something unsettling under the surface. It's not all glorious green pastures. Perhaps the 4th symphony just shows what was hiding underneath!

I hear some dissonance in the 5th symphony too (I have to relisten to it to confirm the accuracy of this statment!). Where I really hear some dissonance is in the 7th Symphony! The vastness, coldness, and majestic (yet dangerous) beauty of the Antarctic: full of light, yet devoid of warmth: there is definitely some dissonance there, of a different kind perhaps.

I can't comment on the 8th or 9th, I barely know these (and don't really know of any good recordings for them).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2012, 09:10:52 AM
Quote from: raduneo on May 02, 2012, 08:55:36 AM
I can't comment on the 8th or 9th, I barely know these (and don't really know of any good recordings for them).


8 - Haitink
     Barbirolli (Dutton)
     Handley
     Thomson

9 - Haitink
     Bakels
     Thomson
     Boult


Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2012, 09:17:17 AM
(* pleased to reflect that he has three of each of those singled out by the Sarge for praise *)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on May 02, 2012, 09:24:18 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 08:17:50 AMMennin will be remembered for one thing: being a jealous jerk.

Quote from: Joseph W. Polisi, author of _American Muse: The Life and Times of William Schuman_
With Peter Mennin, it was so obvious that [what Bill did] was very aggressive and probably inappropriate. I'm sure I could have had that reinforced even further—perhaps by Mrs. Mennin, because Mr. Mennin is no longer with us, of course—but it was clearly an overstepping of bounds, and that's the way I try to present it in the book.

(From a not uninteresting interview at http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/A-Conversation-with-Joseph-W-Polisi-Author-of-American-Muse/)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 10:41:56 AM
Quote from: raduneo on May 02, 2012, 08:55:36 AMI can't comment on the 8th or 9th, I barely know these (and don't really know of any good recordings for them).

Sarge suggested some good recordings but for the 8th and 9th Thomson gets my vote all around. Do you own Bryden Thomson's cycle? It's the finest set of RVW symphonies I own.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 02, 2012, 10:46:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 10:41:56 AM
Sarge suggested some good recordings but for the 8th and 9th Thomson gets my vote all around. Do you own Bryden Thomson's cycle? It's the finest set of RVW symphonies I own.

Completely agreed and also my first choice for the Eight and Ninth. No other conductor brings out the brute power of the Andante of the Ninth like Thomson.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 10:59:04 AM
Quote from: Christo on May 02, 2012, 10:46:22 AM
Completely agreed and also my first choice for the Eight and Ninth. No other conductor brings out the brute power of the Andante of the Ninth like Thomson.

It's rather amusing that I avoided Bryden Thomson's set for a long time, but, when I finally bought it, I listened to the 5th and instantly thought "Okay, now why did I put off buying this set for so long?" It's an expensive set no doubt. I've never seen it less than $45, but it's worth every penny.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on May 02, 2012, 12:10:28 PM
Quote from: raduneo on May 02, 2012, 08:44:24 AM
For example, I used to completely dislike Shostakovich, Bartok, Brahms and Mozart for the logest time - and I had made great efforts to try and get into their music, but it wasn't working in the least. Then somehow it clicked all of a sudden (not at the same time for all of them). I now love them (the first three actually make it to my top 10 composers list).

Oh yes, yes. Exactly. The interesting thing is that when an earlier dislike is transformed into love, I can no longer understand my own previous dislike! For example, I simply cannot understand how, 10 years ago, I found Mozart trivial and uninteresting. I know I did. I wish I hadn't. But there it is, and hindsight leaves me completely baffled.

It is perfectly possible that at some point I'll make the same sort of breakthrough into the RVW symphonies I don't enjoy at present. We change all the time. For now though, I'm stuck pottering mainly among the cowpats of 3 and 5 and the taxicabs of 2.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on May 02, 2012, 12:19:36 PM
Quote from: raduneo on May 02, 2012, 08:55:36 AM
I hear the sense of danger and menace in the 3rd symphony already! It's subdued and not as overt, but there is definitely something unsettling under the surface. It's not all glorious green pastures. Perhaps the 4th symphony just shows what was hiding underneath!

Oh yes indeed. I pick up a tremendous feeling of sadness and loss pervading the 3rd symphony: a kind of 'these green fields can never be the same again' feeling. I can handle that, it seems, whereas the sound of the 4th actually upsets me, and I just want to switch it off. But of course there's loads of art of all kinds that presses our personal buttons unpleasantly, and we all have to weave our own different paths through the minefield!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2012, 12:24:47 PM
Not too mad on the fourth symphony, myself,quite frankly! My loss,I know! :( :)
My favourites incidentally,are probably the fifth,eighth & ninth!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 12:28:41 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 02, 2012, 12:24:47 PM
Not too mad on the fourth symphony, myself,quite frankly! My loss,I know! :( :)
My favourites incidentally,are probably the fifth,eighth & ninth!

Have you heard Bernstein's performance of the 4th? Sarge turned me onto that performance and all I have say is wow.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2012, 12:30:21 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 02, 2012, 12:19:36 PM
Oh yes indeed. I pick up a tremendous feeling of sadness and loss pervading the 3rd symphony: a kind of 'these green fields can never be the same again' feeling.

(Can't help myself . . . .)

Always look on the bright side of life! . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on May 02, 2012, 01:21:36 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 02, 2012, 12:19:36 PM
Oh yes indeed. I pick up a tremendous feeling of sadness and loss pervading the 3rd symphony: a kind of 'these green fields can never be the same again' feeling. I can handle that, it seems, whereas the sound of the 4th actually upsets me, and I just want to switch it off. But of course there's loads of art of all kinds that presses our personal buttons unpleasantly, and we all have to weave our own different paths through the minefield!
In some ways I think of the 3rd as far darker than the 4th; the violence and dark qualities of the 4th and 6th are very up-front whereas in the 3rd everything is tinged with the unsettling darkness under the surface. There's nothing of the active defiance of the darker emotions that the 4th and (to some extent) 6th have, just a very bleak undercurrent that never goes away.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2012, 01:36:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 12:28:41 PM
Have you heard Bernstein's performance of the 4th? Sarge turned me onto that performance and all I have say is wow.
Sounds very interesting,Mirror Image! I'm going to have to make a note of that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 01:37:30 PM
Quote from: edward on May 02, 2012, 01:21:36 PM
In some ways I think of the 3rd as far darker than the 4th; the violence and dark qualities of the 4th and 6th are very up-front whereas in the 3rd everything is tinged with the unsettling darkness under the surface. There's nothing of the active defiance of the darker emotions that the 4th and (to some extent) 6th have, just a very bleak undercurrent that never goes away.

I know, I know RVW said he didn't attach any program to his symphonies, but sometimes I think his descriptions sound completely vague. I, too, think the 3rd is troubled work, but, as you say, it's all under the surface. I think it's really a requiem more than anything. A requiem to a time that will longer be.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 02, 2012, 01:36:16 PM
Sounds very interesting,Mirror Image! I'm going to have to make a note of that.

Yeah, I'm about to re-listen to it. It's been several months since I've heard it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on May 02, 2012, 07:45:36 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 07:48:39 PMIt seems that RVW's 4th and 6th symphonies seem to still give some listeners problems. I find these two symphonies to be two of the most compelling symphonies written by a British composer. I really like all of RVW's symphonies, but it seems that these two symphonies' violence nature sparks something inside of me. How could someone so humble and kind, compose something so ominous? Any thoughts?

Well, he wasn't a saint, you know. Apparently some of Rafe's friends thought the 4th was a self-portrait.

Symphonies 7 and 9 are also quite dark (I favour Previn's slow tempos in both of these).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 07:56:22 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 02, 2012, 07:45:36 PMApparently some of Rafe's friends thought the 4th was a self-portrait.

This is what I picked up when watching O Thou Transcendent, the Tony Palmer film. If the 4th was a self-portrait of his life at that juncture, what are the meanings behind the 5th and 6th symphonies? Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on May 02, 2012, 08:42:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 07:56:22 PMThis is what I picked up when watching O Thou Transcendent, the Tony Palmer film. If the 4th was a self-portrait of his life at that juncture, what are the meanings behind the 5th and 6th symphonies? Any thoughts?

I've read the tempest of the 4th was inspired by RVW's marriage problems. I don't think the 6th is such a diversion from the musical norm, more an obvious waystation to the late trilogy. Actually, if you just look at symphonies 4-9, it's the 5th that looks freakish.

What caused the shift in style? Obviously part of it was the acerbic qualities of the new music of the times. Also, I think maybe RVW came to express himself more personally as he went on, whereas symphonies 1 and 2 certainly are conceived more as public events.

For me the real mystery (please pardon the pun!) is the Pilgrim's Progress. I don't understand what he was trying to achieve with it, particularly as he was a non-believer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 09:11:48 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 02, 2012, 08:42:43 PM
I've read the tempest of the 4th was inspired by RVW's marriage problems. I don't think the 6th is such a diversion from the musical norm, more an obvious waystation to the late trilogy. Actually, if you just look at symphonies 4-9, it's the 5th that looks freakish.

What caused the shift in style? Obviously part of it was the acerbic qualities of the new music of the times. Also, I think maybe RVW came to express himself more personally as he went on, whereas symphonies 1 and 2 certainly are conceived more as public events.

For me the real mystery (please pardon the pun!) is the Pilgrim's Progress. I don't understand what he was trying to achieve with it, particularly as he was a non-believer.

The 5th, in my opinion, was composed during a very happy time during his life. The Romanza movement, according to the Tony Palmer film, was inspired by his love for Ursula, and this really is what I consider the heart of this symphony. The first, second, and finale movements still baffle me. I mean I love the music of course, but their meaning in the grand scheme of the symphony seems kind of odd. But somehow, RVW made it all work together and it still holds up well I think even after listening to it as many times as I have. I also think this symphony lingers in the shadows of the 4th and 6th and acts as kind of a whispering ghost telling the listener that there's still good in this world.

The 6th, the more I think about it, represents his feelings on WWII whether those thoughts have manifested themselves in this symphony or not we'll never know. It's all speculation, but I imagine, as an abulance driver in WWI, he saw some of the most horrific things imaginable. I think WWII was just another nail into his mental coffin. His dreams for those rolling green hills, the afternoon walks in the park, and for a life of peace and serenity came to a violent, screeching hault when this war broke out and I believe it devastated him.

Anyway, I'm just tossing out ideas here which can sometimes be illuminating...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on May 02, 2012, 11:05:04 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2012, 12:30:21 PM
(Can't help myself . . . .)

Always look on the bright side of life! . . .

Good point, Karl, reminding us that Vaughan Williams's's 'Python' Symphony has always been a reliable source of infectious bounce.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on May 02, 2012, 11:13:43 PM
Quote from: edward on May 02, 2012, 01:21:36 PM
In some ways I think of the 3rd as far darker than the 4th; the violence and dark qualities of the 4th and 6th are very up-front whereas in the 3rd everything is tinged with the unsettling darkness under the surface. There's nothing of the active defiance of the darker emotions that the 4th and (to some extent) 6th have, just a very bleak undercurrent that never goes away.

I wouldn't disagree with you. What I was getting at, though, is that different types of darkness press different folks' neurotic buttons differently. The other factor is that I find the third, even though barely-suppressed dismay lies beneath its surface, very enticing to listen to - it just sounds so beautiful. By contrast, I simply don't enjoy listening to the sounds of the fourth.

But I'm not really contributing anything enlightening about RVW. I'm mostly talking about one particular current bundle of preferences and neuroses (mine), and how they affect response - not about his music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 03:28:13 AM
Just two thoughts in contribution to the flow.

Going back at least to LvB's Große Fuge, there are some pieces written in such a way, that it almost seems (to invoke a technological anachronism) that the composer dares you to switch it off.  And (while it is a piece I've always liked, myself) the RVW Fourth seems to me to spring in part from such a strain.

Composers' biographies, now. They are of undeniable interest, and in many ways (some ways, perfectly subtle) illumine the work. But there's a slick slope which one's feet are entirely apt to find on their own, and the pit at the bottom of that slope is the touchy-feely swamp whence ideas like "Shakespeare wrote Hamlet at a Dark Time in his life, but he wrote Twelfth Night when birds were singing in the trees." All I say here is, please, let's agree that the great artists are also intelligent, capable craftsmen, and that the bulk of their work (it may be) they created because it seemed to them good, and not because, like callow teens, they cannot help blurting out into art, their feeeeelings du jour.

Carry on ....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2012, 04:34:53 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2012, 03:28:13 AMAll I say here is, please, let's agree that the great artists are also intelligent, capable craftsmen, and that the bulk of their work (it may be) they created because it seemed to them good, and not because, like callow teens, they cannot help blurting out into art, their feeeeelings du jour.

Maybe...but also possibly this:

"What one can say is that it was necessary, at that moment, for him to write it: to bring into the open the turmoil behind works like Job and the Piano Concerto, allowing violence, with almost gleeful abandon, to do its worst. Only then could he say, from the horror of war, within and without, dona nobis pacem, and proceed to make his Fifth Symphony, which may fairly claim to be his ultimate masterpiece." --Wilfrid Mellers, Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion

I don't think it farfetched to believe VW's concern about events and his own inner demons found outlets in the violence of the Fourth and the explicit reference to war and peace in Dona nobis pacem, two works that were conceived together.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 05:10:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2012, 04:34:53 AM
Maybe...but also possibly this:

"What one can say is that it was necessary, at that moment, for him to write it: to bring into the open the turmoil behind works like Job and the Piano Concerto, allowing violence, with almost gleeful abandon, to do its worst. Only then could he say, from the horror of war, within and without, dona nobis pacem, and proceed to make his Fifth Symphony, which may fairly claim to be his ultimate masterpiece." --Wilfrid Mellers, Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion

I don't think it farfetched to believe VW's concern about events and his own inner demons found outlets in the violence of the Fourth and the explicit reference to war and peace in Dona nobis pacem, two works that were conceived together.

Not at all far-fetched, esteemed Sarge. If you'll forgive my performing (composer-like) a variation upon your theme, I can assent most readily to the following: VW's concern about events and his own inner demons found outlets in the explicit reference to war and peace in Dona nobis pacem.

Which is not to say that you are mistaken in the matter of the Fourth (I am in no position to suggest any such thing). Only that I do not necessarily find that in the text, either in your interesting and useful citation here, nor in the symphony.  I am sure that part of the matter is, that I am so accustomed to enjoying music which is a far wilder ride;  but in the drama of the Fourth I do not hear martial violence . . . and indeed, in some of its energetic play, I hear bumptious good spirits.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2012, 05:36:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2012, 05:10:09 AM....but in the drama of the Fourth I do not hear martial violence . . . and indeed, in some of its energetic play, I hear bumptious good spirits.[/font]

You know, soldiers take frequent and often playful breaks from the killing  ;)

But I didn't mean to imply that the Fourth is all about war. I don't fault you for reading me that way though. My fault. When I used the words "inner demons" and "events" I meant the music may have been the result of biographical baggage, including his troubled marriage, Europe's political turmoil, his memory of the Great War, etc. Of course I don't know what VW meant (if anything) by the Fourth. But I tend to believe it wasn't unconnected to his own life. He might very well have been "blurting out into art, [his] feeeeelings du jour." Or not  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 05:45:01 AM
Hah!

Speaking for myself (which will not necessarily answer for any other composer, certainly not a great chap like RVW): I suppose every piece I write is connected to my life, somehow; only I myself should be hard pressed to figure out how, in many instances.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: not edward on May 03, 2012, 08:51:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2012, 05:45:01 AM
Hah!

Speaking for myself (which will not necessarily answer for any other composer, certainly not a great chap like RVW): I suppose every piece I write is connected to my life, somehow; only I myself should be hard pressed to figure out how, in many instances.

However, if in the future your work is admitted into the canon, you will find any number of people willing to figure that out for you. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2012, 08:53:26 AM
Quote from: edward on May 03, 2012, 08:51:49 AM
However, if in the future your work is admitted into the canon, you will find any number of people willing to figure that out for you. :)

;D :D ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 09:17:20 AM
Yes!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 09:49:18 AM
The mischief-maker in me wants to call bits of the Andante sostenuto movement of the Ninth "In the Hall of the Cow-Pat King."
Title: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 03, 2012, 11:11:28 AM
I love RVW's 8th and 9th!

[quick post, short on time]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 03, 2012, 11:20:44 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 03, 2012, 11:11:28 AM
I love RVW's 8th &amp; 9th!

[quick post, short on time]

Me too! [running]  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 04, 2012, 01:01:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 10:59:04 AM
It's rather amusing that I avoided Bryden Thomson's set for a long time, but, when I finally bought it, I listened to the 5th and instantly thought "Okay, now why did I put off buying this set for so long?" It's an expensive set no doubt. I've never seen it less than $45, but it's worth every penny.

They are. I bought them one by one, at their release, back in the 1980s and 1990s. They were only the third cycle available then, after Boult and Previn, and a huge leap forward in terms of sound. I paid about 22 euros each (in solid guilders and with a minimum income myself  ;)), making about 200 euros / 260 USD / for the whole bunch.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2012, 01:27:30 AM
Quote from: Christo on May 04, 2012, 01:01:45 AMI paid about 22 euros each (in solid guilders and with a minimum income myself  ;)), making about 200 euros / 260 USD / for the whole bunch.  8)

Ah, those were the days, my friend  ;D  I don't even want to figure out how much my collection cost me.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 04, 2012, 02:13:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2012, 01:27:30 AM
Ah, those were the days, my friend  ;D  I don't even want to figure out how much my collection cost me.

A modest estimate could be: [Number of cds] times €10 each = total cost in €.  Making, in my case, about €50.000 for just one wall. Still far less than what I had to pay for the other walls here around.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2012, 07:46:13 AM
Quote from: Christo on May 04, 2012, 01:01:45 AM
They are. I bought them one by one, at their release, back in the 1980s and 1990s. They were only the third cycle available then, after Boult and Previn, and a huge leap forward in terms of sound. I paid about 22 euros each (in solid guilders and with a minimum income myself  ;)), making about 200 euros / 260 USD / for the whole bunch.  8)

Yikes! Well I shouldn't be complaining about the price of my set then! I only paid $40, which is well below asking price on Amazon right now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scion7 on May 04, 2012, 10:19:33 AM
Yes, ol' Rafe excelled in making one think you are standing in a grassture.

That's where cows hang out - a grassture.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 04, 2012, 05:07:12 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on May 04, 2012, 10:19:33 AM
Yes, ol' Rafe excelled in making one think you are standing in a grassture.

That's where cows hang out - a grassture.

What would consider to be RVW's most grassture-esque piece?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 04, 2012, 05:18:31 PM
Thomson's set is quite nice, but I still love my Slatkin set. I think these are the best recordings Slatkin has made. Thomson creates a large and authoritative sound, compared to Slatkin which is more refined with tremendous clarity. I prefer the latter for my RVW. The set currently contains my favorite performances of #1, #4, #8 and #9.

It's available in this cheap reissue set.

[asin]B0056K4VUY[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scion7 on May 05, 2012, 01:15:12 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 04, 2012, 05:07:12 PM
What would consider to be RVW's most grassture-esque piece?

Well, for pure bucolic beauty, I would say A Pastoral Symphony, The Lark Ascending, The Wasps, ... Fen Country, and probably some of the various songs (I've only heard a few) are good examples.   There might be unpublished works that also address it - don't have a biography of him, so don't know the status of any manuscripts in a library/museum that to date haven't been performed or recorded.

For the most part, I think he kept the country out of his (few) chamber pieces.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 05, 2012, 04:42:01 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on May 04, 2012, 10:19:33 AM
That's where cows hang out - a grassture.

Ah, memories. Saw that in a Peanuts strip in the '60s.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scion7 on May 05, 2012, 04:29:00 PM
Yeah - I "John Williams'd" it.   ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 05, 2012, 04:35:16 PM
Hah!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: snyprrr on May 05, 2012, 09:42:07 PM
I was hoping to get a discussion started on the Romance (slow movement) from SQ 2. The textures here get so thick as to defy most players' intonational instincts,... I don't know, may he meeeant it that way. Would someone please set me straight on this most maddening of beautiful slow movements.

I mean, I get the whole Tudor-ish thing, the fourths and fifths,... is it Purcell?,... or is it RVW? Still, does anyone notice the thickness at parts, the almost, apparently willful complexity? Don't get me wrong, it's beautiful,... is it a performance issue?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 06, 2012, 01:47:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2012, 12:28:41 PM
Have you heard Bernstein's performance of the 4th? Sarge turned me onto that performance and all I have say is wow.
Actually,I didn't JUST 'make a note' of you're suggestion,Mirror Image;I downloaded it (as soon as I found it) from Amazon! (The download also included Bernstein conducting Tchaikovsky's Sixth,again with the NYPO,which I haven't listened to yet;but I'm looking forward to hear what he made of it!)
A very exciting performance & you're suggestion 'worked',I DID enjoy it!!!! A first for me! But come to think of it,having listened to Bernstein conducting William Schuman,the sound world of VW's toughest symphony doesn't seem too distant (in a way!). Not saying VW sounds like Schuman,but there's the same sinewy propulsiveness there,somewhere & who better to convert me to VW's Fourth than the conductor of,possibly (probably) the greatest recording of Schuman's marvellous fifth?
  My only disappointment......that I can't follow this up with Bernstein in VW's Sixth (did he ever conduct it?).

Thanks Mirror Image (and Sarge?!)! This might even be a favourite,now!!!! :o ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 06, 2012, 06:19:44 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 06, 2012, 01:47:33 PM
Actually,I didn't JUST 'make a note' of you're suggestion,Mirror Image;I downloaded it (as soon as I found it) from Amazon! (The download also included Bernstein conducting Tchaikovsky's Sixth,again with the NYPO,which I haven't listened to yet;but I'm looking forward to hear what he made of it!)
A very exciting performance & you're suggestion 'worked',I DID enjoy it!!!! A first for me! But come to think of it,having listened to Bernstein conducting William Schuman,the sound world of VW's toughest symphony doesn't seem too distant (in a way!). Not saying VW sounds like Schuman,but there's the same sinewy propulsiveness there,somewhere & who better to convert me to VW's Fourth than the conductor of,possibly (probably) the greatest recording of Schuman's marvellous fifth?
  My only disappointment......that I can't follow this up with Bernstein in VW's Sixth (did he ever conduct it?).

Thanks Mirror Image (and Sarge?!)! This might even be a favourite,now!!!! :o ;D

Glad you enjoyed it my friend! It is, no doubt, a remarkably good performance. I'm still torn between picking a favorite 4th at the moment: I like Boult (EMI), Thomson, and Bernstein. Yes, Bernstein is at home in conducting this kind of music. Bernstein's performance of Schuman's symphonies is out-of-this-world excellent, but that's for another thread. ;) I wish Bernstein conducted Vaughan Williams' 6th as well, he would be a natural in it, but I also think he would do well with Job, but that work opposes a lot of challenges for a conductor of his heart-on-sleeve, hard-hitting approach.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda - early chamber works
Post by: Scion7 on May 07, 2012, 08:22:13 AM
I grabbed the CD by the Nash Ensemble playing the 'cupboarded' chamber pieces - the string quartet, the piano quintet and the quintet in D for clarinet-horn-piano-cello-violin are pretty solid.  Enjoying the themes in the Quintet in D - a little Brahms, a little Weber, a little Schubert, I think.  A good one to hear in concert.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 07, 2012, 08:34:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 06, 2012, 06:19:44 PM
Glad you enjoyed it my friend! It is, no doubt, a remarkably good performance. I'm still torn between picking a favorite 4th at the moment: I like Boult (EMI), Thomson, and Bernstein. Yes, Bernstein is at home in conducting this kind of music. Bernstein's performance of Schuman's symphonies is out-of-this-world excellent, but that's for another thread. ;) I wish Bernstein conducted Vaughan Williams' 6th as well, he would be a natural in it, but I also think he would do well with Job, but that work opposes a lot of challenges for a conductor of his heart-on-sleeve, hard-hitting approach.
And very good sound quality,too. Although,I have only listened on headphones! Bernstein conducting Job? One can dream,eh?!!! ;D
I'll have to 'dig' my Boult Four out & compare,now! :)
Incidentally,I'm beginning to wish I hadn't sent VW's own recording of the Fourth,down to the charity shop,now!
I can't very well ask for it back,can I?!! :o ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 07, 2012, 08:47:54 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 07, 2012, 08:34:36 AM
And very good sound quality,too. Although,I have only listened on headphones! Bernstein conducting Job? One can dream,eh?!!! ;D
I'll have to 'dig' my Boult Four out & compare,now! :)
Incidentally,I'm beginning to wish I hadn't sent VW's own recording of the Fourth,down to the charity shop,now!
I can't very well ask for it back,can I?!! :o ;D

Yes, it sounds really good. I haven't heard RVW's own recording of the 4th. I'm not much for mono sound so that's why I stay away from these kinds of historical performances.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 07, 2012, 08:55:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 07, 2012, 08:47:54 AM
Yes, it sounds really good. I haven't heard RVW's own recording of the 4th. I'm not much for mono sound so that's why I stay away from these kinds of historical performances.

It's not just mono, it's canned.  8) Terrific performance though - for what we can make of it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 07, 2012, 09:09:46 AM
Yes,I haven't heard it for a while,but I seem to remember it was poor even for it's day! Rough,harsh & constricted & a bit boxy,to say the least. I had the Dutton & maybe it sounds better in some other incarnation. Although,I just looked at a review of the Naxos reissue on Musicweb & apparently,that one sounds worse. Dutton do use what some describe as an 'interventionist' approach? I personally prefer a little hiss & even a bit of crackle ;D with mine. Too much intervention & the sound seems constricted & dare I say,'dead'!
I like early electrical recordings,myself,but I've heard recordings from the late 20's that sounded better! I don't expect you could too much to improve a recording like that,really?
(What transfer did you hear Christo?)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on May 07, 2012, 05:30:43 PM
Listening to the second string quartet this morning, my imagination kept inserting a quite distinct line for doublebass (e.g. for a low drone during the opening passage). I thought it worked really well! I wonder if the quartets are in a way frustrated symphonies, as late romantic and early modern chamber works often sound to me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda: SQ 2
Post by: snyprrr on May 09, 2012, 06:31:28 PM
String Quartet No.2

No one took the bite earlier on this Topic, but I've been comparing, and the Nash Ensemble on Hyperion really just owns this piece. As I commented before, both the Medicis and the Music Group of London struggle to make sense of the central Romance, which is to be played without vibrato, like a Tudor viol section. The Nash members don't try to make every voice heard, which leads to great thickness and intonational difficulties that the Nash judiciously curtail. And they do it with the quickest timing, which is impressive.

Elsewhere, as in the opening viola fanfare of the first movement, the viola snakes in and out with volume swells, a very nice effect, and the rest join in without being too declamatory (a hindrance in the EMI).

The Hyperion duplicates everything on the EMI disc and basically negates that album completely. Burn it with fire! ;) I can't imagine the Naxos sound or performance surpassing this most special gift. And the Medicis amount to a good compare, though they also offer the SQ 1.

The Violin Sonata is almost a different animal from the Hugh Bean on EMI, so smooth and seductive is it. The opening alone tells us this is going to be a much better ride. This VC certainly sits at the apex of mid-century traditional Classical Music.

I'd say that this cd is the one-stop-n-shop for RVW Chamber Music. I personally don't need to delve in the double set of earlier works, and this one does totally discount the other EMI set (which I am frankly glad to cash in: there was just something lacking in the SQ), so please, take it from me, you probably won't ever hear these pieces played with as much passion and perfection. The Romance makes my friend cry, it's that good!

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 01, 2012, 11:07:57 AM
I've not heard the original Piano Concerto for any comparison . . . but I am much enjoying making the acquakntance of the Concerto for Two Pianos.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 01, 2012, 11:52:23 AM
That Finale alla tedesca has something of a RVW hommage à la Valse de Ravel vibe going.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 02, 2012, 07:51:01 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 01, 2012, 11:07:57 AM
I've not heard the original Piano Concerto for any comparison . . . but I am much enjoying making the acquakntance of the Concerto for Two Pianos.

I prefer the Concerto for Two Pianos for the simple fact that the piano writing is obviously much fuller, but then again this is the version I heard first and when I listened to the version for just one piano it didn't sound quite right to me. :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 04, 2012, 12:18:02 AM
My preference is also for the two piano version - especially in the Vronsky/Babin/Boult EMI recording - one of the great VW performances I think.  I like VW's late piano writing and was yesterday listening to his 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' - a remarkable work and currently one of my favourite works by the composer. If you are a VW fan and don't know this work do look it out.  The late Violin Sonata is probably with SQ No 2 my favourite piece of chamber music by Vaughan Williams.  I like the late, craggy, percussive piano writing very much. The Fantasia on the Old 104th can be found on the great, inexpensive, double album below.  Perhaps the best VW reissue CD in the EMI British Composers series as it also marked the return of Boult's fine recording of 'Dona Nobis Pacem' and Sargent's 'Tallis Fantasia' (a wonderful performance) alongside much else (Larry Adler's 'Harmonica Romance' for starters).
[asin]B00005Q2X8[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2012, 05:01:34 AM
I need to spend proper "quality time" with the Violin Sonata. It has certainly been pleasurable to listen to it, but it has suffered (not through any 'fault' of its own!) by being on the same CD as the Elgar Violin Sonata . . . so that as a rule, when I reached for the CD, it was to listen to the Elgar, which is so rich a listen, it hasn't been fair to RVW to just keep rolling . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 04, 2012, 08:13:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2012, 05:01:34 AM
I need to spend proper "quality time" with the Violin Sonata. It has certainly been pleasurable to listen to it, but it has suffered (not through any 'fault' of its own!) by being on the same CD as the Elgar Violin Sonata . . . so that as a rule, when I reached for the CD, it was to listen to the Elgar, which is so rich a listen, it hasn't been fair to RVW to just keep rolling . . . .

Perhaps the best version Karl is by the Music Group of London (EMI) on a great all VW CD. If you get that you wont be distracted by the Elgar  :D.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2012, 09:22:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 04, 2012, 08:13:02 AM
[...] If you get that you wont be distracted by the Elgar  :D.

Hah!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 04, 2012, 06:07:28 PM
Don't know whether people have spoken about VW's solo piano works before. I haven't seen many recordings of them. I have a disk on an obscure label from about 1988 which is one of my favorite disks, it has various pieces including a chorale prelude on a theme of Gibbons, a piece, The Lake in the Mountains, arranged from one of his film scores, and his arrangement of Bach's Ach bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ (a Schulber Chorale). This last piece is amazing, Bach arranged a previous chorale by another composer, and VW adds a fifth part. It was written for Harriet Cohen, who apparently had four hands, or twenty fingers. Absolutely beautiful.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on June 04, 2012, 09:10:19 PM
From an Amazon search, I'd say that was the recording played by Peter Jacobs, on Trax Classique. Cheapest Amazon marketplace version is about $64 :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on June 04, 2012, 11:08:45 PM
The Lake in the Mountains is included on a Nash Ensemble disc of his chamber works - it's a very good and atmospheric piece, it would be a nice "mystery" recital inclusion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 05, 2012, 12:17:20 AM
I really like 'The Lake in the Mountains' on that very nice Hyperion disc.  Oddly enough I was wondering about VW's piano music yesterday and thinking of all the works I like which include a significant (and often 'craggy') piano part. I like these works very much:

The Lake in the Mountains (a lovely piece - not at all craggy)

Fantasia on the Old 104th (great despite opening sounding like 'Sparky's Magic Piano')

Epithalamion (lovely late work - very neglected)

Piano Concerto/Concerto for Two Pianos (obviously)

Violin Sonata.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 05, 2012, 12:20:32 PM
I was delighted to hear the Te Deum played today during the Jubilee service at St Paul's in London.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 05, 2012, 07:35:56 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 05, 2012, 12:20:32 PM
I was delighted to hear the Te Deum played today during the Jubilee service at St Paul's in London.
Me too. Finally a Jubilee Concerto deservintg the name.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2012, 02:21:07 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 05, 2012, 07:35:56 PM
Me too. Finally a Jubilee Concerto deservintg the name.  ;)

Re: 'The magic casements'. Lovely VW quote on your message - yes, very interesting what the 'cheerful agnostic' vicar's son had to say.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on June 06, 2012, 05:55:46 PM
Also, RVW grew up in a house which had "casements".
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on June 06, 2012, 11:43:47 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 06, 2012, 05:55:46 PM
Also, RVW grew up in a house which had "casements".

... as well as a volume of Keats's poetry:

" . . . magic casements, opening on the foam
Of perilous seas, in faery lands forlorn."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 06, 2012, 11:54:07 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 06, 2012, 11:43:47 PM
... as well as a volume of Keats's poetry:

" . . . magic casements, opening on the foam
Of perilous seas, in faery lands forlorn."


Yes, definitely Keats, who was often in RVW's mind.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2012, 04:16:41 AM
Thanks. Shamefully I did no realise it was from Keats (my wife's favourite poet).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 07, 2012, 04:37:33 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 06, 2012, 11:43:47 PM
... as well as a volume of Keats's poetry:

" . . . magic casements, opening on the foam
Of perilous seas, in faery lands forlorn."


Lovely.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on June 07, 2012, 05:25:00 PM
Faery lands forlorn? Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 07, 2012, 07:00:06 PM
Feelin' a wee bit down in the elf, fella?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 07, 2012, 11:36:03 PM
Who hasn't wept at the young poet's grave in the Protestant Cemetery (i.e. all non-Catholics) in Rome with all the famous names, 'Goethe Filius' (!) including (I wonder if RVW saw it during his visit to Rome, very late in his life, but cannot find it in Ursula's biography - does anyone know?):

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/9059_-_Roma_-_Cimitero_acattolico_-_Tomba_John_Keats_(1795-1821)_-_Foto_Giovanni_Dall'Orto,_31-March-2008.jpg/800px-9059_-_Roma_-_Cimitero_acattolico_-_Tomba_John_Keats_(1795-1821)_-_Foto_Giovanni_Dall'Orto,_31-March-2008.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on June 07, 2012, 11:54:12 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 07, 2012, 05:25:00 PM
Faery lands forlorn? Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

Ah, but you're not getting the all-important context, because I only quoted the 'magic casements' bit. Keats is listening to the sound of the nightingale and contemplating various different circumstances in which the nightingale has been heard by others, beguiled by its beauty. When he finds himself musing about 'faery lands forlorn', it acts for him as a warning bell that calls him back to reality, wondering about what's real and what isn't. The poem isn't a fanciful piece of fairy frippery, but a profound contemplation about the role of the imagination.

See the whole thing here:
http://www.john-keats.com/gedichte/ode_to_a_nightingale.htm (http://www.john-keats.com/gedichte/ode_to_a_nightingale.htm)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 08, 2012, 05:56:38 AM
O Thou Transcendent, in a DVD which my player can read ; ) has landed!  Will probably check it out this very evening!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 08, 2012, 09:09:53 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 08, 2012, 05:56:38 AM
O Thou Transcendent, in a DVD which my player can read ; ) has landed!  Will probably check it out this very evening!

Will be very interested to hear your views Karl.  There was quite an acrimonious debate about it in the Journal of the Vaughan Williams Society.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 11, 2012, 04:25:51 AM
Watched it at last yestereven, Jeffrey. Truly, I thoroughly enjoyed it: the interviews (both previously filmed, and contemporary), the (astonishingly clean) recordings of (I take it) the maestro, himself, the beautiful location shots, both architectural and landscape, the historical footage, the bits of Scott of the Antarctic, the rich and (meseemed) sympathetic biographical detail, the many musical illustrations. Loved it all.

My own quarrels are minor and few. I don't believe I've ever underestimated the horror of The Great War, but I am hesitant to endorse the assertion that all his music ever after lay under that shadow; I don't think the idea flat-out wrong, only mistakenly proposed as an absolute.

On those lines, I don't absolutely object to the interposition of modern war horrors; I think there is a point of immediacy which is valid, but the pile-up at the end seems heavy-handed, and more about Auteur's Message, less about the composer.

That said, none of that interfered with so much that is of genuine interest and value.

My only other quibble is lighter, still ... though maybe it's of a piece with the above. I entirely see the point of not marginalizing RVW as an "amateur folklorist," but there was a time or two when I thought someone or other went a bit overboard to stress the Artistic Gravity of the folksong endeavor. Again, more a question of stress; and less still of an overall concern than the shots of emaciated Biafrans, e.g.

I want to watch it again soon!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 11, 2012, 06:53:34 AM
Oh! Just thought of another bit to which I take principled exception.

There's a fellow who goes on about the two chords at the end of the Sixth Symphony supposedly being an Amen; but then, he observes that harmonically, it does not resolve to stability in the manner of an Amen.  Now, instead of putting his thesis to the test, and concluding, Well, gosh, it's not an Amen, then, is it?, he builds this sandcastle of its supposedly being an Amen, but a misshapen Amen.

Every now and then, there's an attempt by someone to fashion RVW in his own image, which excites the BS-ometer.  Nonetheless, I truly enjoyed the film : )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 11, 2012, 07:15:31 AM
Gosh, and now I am musically curious to hear A London Symphony un-cut. Never thought I should be.  I have likely mentioned before that this was the last of the nine symphonies to "convince" me, so a "pre-pruned" version struck me as pert near a non-starter.  Just now revisiting the Lento, and (per the thread I created on this point) I don't know what had blinded me to this piece's beauty erewhile.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 11, 2012, 07:27:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2012, 04:25:51 AM
Watched it at last yestereven, Jeffrey. Truly, I thoroughly enjoyed it: the interviews (both previously filmed, and contemporary), the (astonishingly clean) recordings of (I take it) the maestro, himself, the beautiful location shots, both architectural and landscape, the historical footage, the bits of Scott of the Antarctic, the rich and (meseemed) sympathetic biographical detail, the many musical illustrations. Loved it all.

My own quarrels are minor and few. I don't believe I've ever underestimated the horror of The Great War, but I am hesitant to endorse the assertion that all his music ever after lay under that shadow; I don't think the idea flat-out wrong, only mistakenly proposed as an absolute.

On those lines, I don't absolutely object to the interposition of modern war horrors; I think there is a point of immediacy which is valid, but the pile-up at the end seems heavy-handed, and more about Auteur's Message, less about the composer.

That said, none of that interfered with so much that is of genuine interest and value.

My only other quibble is lighter, still ... though maybe it's of a piece with the above. I entirely see the point of not marginalizing RVW as an "amateur folklorist," but there was a time or two when I thought someone or other went a bit overboard to stress the Artistic Gravity of the folksong endeavor. Again, more a question of stress; and less still of an overall concern than the shots of emaciated Biafrans, e.g.

I want to watch it again soon!

"O Thou Transcendent: The Life of Ralph Vaughan Williams" has to be one of the worst documentaries I've seen in a long time. From start to finish, there was nothing of remote substance found. The interview segments made absolutely no sense and didn't even pertain to the subject matter about 99% of the time. The editing, or lack of, was terrible as it was completely cut-up and very erratic. The entire documentary didn't follow any kind of timeline at all. The stories told from the various people being interviewed made absolutely no sense and were more of a personal nature and not much in the way of Vaughan Williams' actual history. The images involved throughout were very distasteful, which I'm sure this has been mentioned, but there were several images that were totally uncalled for like the images of a dead child and not to mention stacks of dead bodies, which are out-of-place in this type of documentary, which is supposed to be about Vaughan Williams and not trying to provoke controversy.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 11, 2012, 07:30:30 AM
Well, there you go: I knew to expect that opinion would be mixed ; )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 11, 2012, 07:36:09 AM
Jeffrey, what do you think of the one fellow's idea that the opening chords of the Tallis Fantasia are a reference to Toward the Unknown Region?  I do not know the latter piece; or rather, I've never heard it, and now, I've only looked at the vocal score.  So my back-of-the-envelope question is: Is this a case of genuine reference, or is it just planing chords, which is stock-in-trade musical technique via the Impressionists?

And of course, now I want to hear the piece (Toward the Unknown Region, I mean) . . . for, of course, more Vaughan Williams settings of Whitman can only be a good thing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on June 11, 2012, 05:54:50 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2012, 07:15:31 AM
Gosh, and now I am musically curious to hear A London Symphony un-cut. Never thought I should be.  I have likely mentioned before that this was the last of the nine symphonies to "convince" me, so a "pre-pruned" version struck me as pert near a non-starter.  Just now revisiting the Lento, and (per the thread I created on this point) I don't know what had blinded me to this piece's beauty erewhile.

It's amazing - I can barely listen to the revised version now. Not that it's bad, but it goes against what I have come to enjoy in the generously sized (but never slack), atmospheric original version. All the cuts that were made removed top-drawer music, and it is equally viable in either varient.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 11, 2012, 06:05:24 PM
Quote from: Lethevich on June 11, 2012, 05:54:50 PM
It's amazing - I can barely listen to the revised version now. Not that it's bad, but it goes against what I have come to enjoy in the generously sized (but never slack), atmospheric original version. All the cuts that were made removed top-drawer music, and it is equally viable in either varient.

I, too, am thankful for that Hickox performance. It's a fine performance as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian on June 12, 2012, 12:19:13 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2012, 04:25:51 AM
My own quarrels are minor and few. I don't believe I've ever underestimated the horror of The Great War, but I am hesitant to endorse the assertion that all his music ever after lay under that shadow; I don't think the idea flat-out wrong, only mistakenly proposed as an absolute.

On those lines, I don't absolutely object to the interposition of modern war horrors; I think there is a point of immediacy which is valid, but the pile-up at the end seems heavy-handed, and more about Auteur's Message, less about the composer.


Yes, this is very close to my own reaction to it when I watched it ... a couple of years ago maybe? I felt I wanted to edit out about half of the war imagery, and 'heavy-handed' is how I saw it too. But there was a lot of good stuff in there apart from that skewed emphasis.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 12, 2012, 12:34:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2012, 07:36:09 AM
Jeffrey, what do you think of the one fellow's idea that the opening chords of the Tallis Fantasia are a reference to Toward the Unknown Region?  I do not know the latter piece; or rather, I've never heard it, and now, I've only looked at the vocal score.  So my back-of-the-envelope question is: Is this a case of genuine reference, or is it just planing chords, which is stock-in-trade musical technique via the Impressionists?

And of course, now I want to hear the piece (Toward the Unknown Region, I mean) . . . for, of course, more Vaughan Williams settings of Whitman can only be a good thing.

Thanks for your feedback Karl which was very interesting.  On the video I don't think that the extracts purporting to be VW talking were actually him - I've heard his voice on some genuine recordings (end of Decca Symph No 6 for example) and elsewhere. I loved the actual clip of him at the start and thought that some of the interviews were informative - but is Symphony 4 really 'rage against Adeline'(his crippled first wife whom he stayed with for 50 years)?  I have mixed views on the documentary but it is great that we have it.  I didn't like the images of dead children which accompanied Symphony 9 - totally inappropriate - Salisbury Plain would have been better. You have to hear 1913 A London Symphony as VW cut out the best bit (just before the end) in 1936. There's an interesting Cincinnatti (sp?) recording with Goossens using the 1920 version which included some cuts but contains that great bit at the end. Not sure about Tallis/Unknown Region - must listen again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2012, 04:27:08 AM
Quote from: Lethevich on June 11, 2012, 05:54:50 PM
It's amazing - I can barely listen to the revised version now. Not that it's bad, but it goes against what I have come to enjoy in the generously sized (but never slack), atmospheric original version. All the cuts that were made removed top-drawer music, and it is equally viable in either varient.

Thanks (again), Sara. Fact is, that in large part your own advocacy for this version has chided me to reconsider.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2012, 04:30:33 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 12, 2012, 12:19:13 AM
Yes, this is very close to my own reaction to it when I watched it ... a couple of years ago maybe? I felt I wanted to edit out about half of the war imagery, and 'heavy-handed' is how I saw it too. But there was a lot of good stuff in there apart from that skewed emphasis.

Really, a wealth of good stuff, Alan. I hope that detailing some of what I found objectionable, did not in turn skew a sense of how much I enjoyed the film.  I am still smiling at his editor's recollection of how ghastly his handwriting was.  (My own is fairly awful, nor do I have anywhere near so good an excuse as being left-handed . . . .)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2012, 04:38:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 12, 2012, 12:34:04 AM
Thanks for your feedback Karl which was very interesting.  On the video I don't think that the extracts purporting to be VW talking were actually him - I've heard his voice on some genuine recordings (end of Decca Symph No 6 for example) and elsewhere. I loved the actual clip of him at the start and thought that some of the interviews were informative - but is Symphony 4 really 'rage against Adeline'(his crippled first wife whom he stayed with for 50 years)?  I have mixed views on the documentary but it is great that we have it.  I didn't like the images of dead children which accompanied Symphony 9 - totally inappropriate - Salisbury Plain would have been better. You have to hear 1913 A London Symphony as VW cut out the best bit (just before the end) in 1936. There's an interesting Cincinnatti (sp?) recording with Goossens using the 1920 version which included some cuts but contains that great bit at the end. Not sure about Tallis/Unknown Region - must listen again.

Aye, Jeffrey, I nearly mentioned that rather harsh remark, myself.  The implication that the unrelenting Fourth was such a tantrum, and that the radiance of the Fifth was the light which Ursula brought back into his life, was coldly unfair to Adeline, unfair to the composer, unfair to the delicacies of their situation.  A reaction to the frustrations of an irresolvable situation? In part, perhaps.  But simply rage at Adeline? Good heavens!

It was a credit to the film, though, that we were given a broader context, so that even just watching the film, that remark rang a queer note.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2012, 06:38:38 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 11, 2012, 06:05:24 PM
I, too, am thankful for that Hickox performance. It's a fine performance as well.

Incidentally, John, you in particular will be pleased that I am at last about to listen to some of the Bryden Thomson symphonies set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2012, 07:10:35 AM
Quote from: Lethevich on June 11, 2012, 05:54:50 PM
It's amazing - I can barely listen to the revised version now. Not that it's bad, but it goes against what I have come to enjoy in the generously sized (but never slack), atmospheric original version. All the cuts that were made removed top-drawer music, and it is equally viable in either varient.

Fair disclosure: I pulled the trigger on this yesterday. Found it at an irresistable price.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 12, 2012, 07:26:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2012, 06:38:38 AM
Incidentally, John, you in particular will be pleased that I am at last about to listen to some of the Bryden Thomson symphonies set.

Yes, the Thomson set is very fine. My favorite of all the cycles. But, believe it or not, I'm warming up to Slatkin as I bought the newly remastered set. Sounds very nice! The Haitink, Handley, and Boult sets are also very fine. I haven't listened to the Naxos set (Daniel, Bakels) in quite some time. Boult I is a good set, but I prefer Boult II by a larger margin.

Anyway, carry on... ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2012, 07:28:57 AM
Inspired by O Thou Transcendent, I now have very nearly all my RVW loaded onto my portable external hard drive . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lethevich on June 12, 2012, 09:51:20 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2012, 07:10:35 AM
Fair disclosure: I pulled the trigger on this yesterday. Found it at an irresistable price.

:3 I know you'll find it valuable, even if you don't prefer the version overall - the recording job is very impressive, and the companion work very effective in context.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2012, 09:53:24 AM
That will be the first Butterworth I ever hear, certainly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 12, 2012, 10:24:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2012, 04:38:23 AM
Aye, Jeffrey, I nearly mentioned that rather harsh remark, myself.  The implication that the unrelenting Fourth was such a tantrum, and that the radiance of the Fifth was the light which Ursula brought back into his life, was coldly unfair to Adeline, unfair to the composer, unfair to the delicacies of their situation.  A reaction to the frustrations of an irresolvable situation? In part, perhaps.  But simply rage at Adeline? Good heavens!

It was a credit to the film, though, that we were given a broader context, so that even just watching the film, that remark rang a queer note.


Totally agree with everything you say here Karl. Slatkin and Thomson are/were fine interpreters of Vaughan Williams - both sets are undervalued.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 12, 2012, 06:48:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 12, 2012, 07:26:18 AM
Yes, the Thomson set is very fine. My favorite of all the cycles. But, believe it or not, I'm warming up to Slatkin as I bought the newly remastered set. Sounds very nice! The Haitink, Handley, and Boult sets are also very fine. I haven't listened to the Naxos set (Daniel, Bakels) in quite some time. Boult I is a good set, but I prefer Boult II by a larger margin.

Anyway, carry on... ;D

Glad to hear, Slatkin is my go-to set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 12, 2012, 07:06:42 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 12, 2012, 06:48:35 PM
Glad to hear, Slatkin is my go-to set.

Well there's a lot of competition in these symphonies. I own every available cycle: Boult I, Boult II, Bakels/Daniel, Slatkin, Previn, Haitink, A. Davis, Thomson, and Handley. I also own Hickox's partial cycle which he performed Symphonies Nos. 1-6 & 8. Not to mention many single releases from various conductors.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 12, 2012, 10:56:02 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 12, 2012, 07:06:42 PM
Well there's a lot of competition in these symphonies. I own every available cycle: Boult I, Boult II, Bakels/Daniel, Slatkin, Previn, Haitink, A. Davis, Thomson, and Handley. I also own Hickox's partial cycle which he performed Symphonies Nos. 1-6 & 8. Not to mention many single releases from various conductors.

Yes me too (every set + numerous recordings of individual symphonies + the same recording in different manifestations  :o) - welcome to the world of CD obsessional nutterdom  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 13, 2012, 07:43:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 12, 2012, 10:56:02 PM
Yes me too (every set + numerous recordings of individual symphonies + the same recording in different manifestations  :o) - welcome to the world of CD obsessional nutterdom  :D

I've had CDCDCD for many years prior to joining this forum. Doctors can't do anything for me. They've all said "It (the CDCDCD) is going to have to work itself out of the system." Yea..right, like that'll happen! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on June 13, 2012, 07:41:24 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2012, 07:10:35 AMFair disclosure: I pulled the trigger on this yesterday. Found it at an irresistable price.

So, from the Hillside to the Veranda.... It's a hard life for some, eh?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 14, 2012, 02:50:05 AM
When things get hairy, there's always The Shed to hang out in.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Montpellier on June 19, 2012, 10:04:35 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 13, 2012, 07:43:19 AM
I've had CDCDCD for many years prior to joining this forum. Doctors can't do anything for me. They've all said "It (the CDCDCD) is going to have to work itself out of the system." Yea..right, like that'll happen! ::) ;D

A shame you don't live in the UK. You could have a stereoectomy on the National Health Service.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 19, 2012, 10:08:37 AM
Quote from: Montpellier on June 19, 2012, 10:04:35 AM
A shame you don't live in the UK. You could have a stereoectomy on the National Health Service.  ;)

;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 27, 2012, 09:17:26 AM
At the time of watching O Thou Transcendent, the piece Toward the Unknown Region was but a name to me.

And now, this week, I've two performances of't.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2012, 11:05:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 27, 2012, 09:17:26 AM
At the time of watching O Thou Transcendent, the piece Toward the Unknown Region was but a name to me.

And now, this week, I've two performances of't.

You never heard Toward the Unknown Region, Karl? Hmmm...surprising. It's not a really well-known work, but it's been recorded several times.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 29, 2012, 12:03:00 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 12, 2012, 12:34:04 AM
. . . Not sure about Tallis/Unknown Region - must listen again.

Well . . . I've listened to Toward the Unknown Region twice now (which may be insufficient yet);  but I do not [yet?] find at all that the Tallis Fantasia alludes to it specifically.

I'm still using pencil here, to be sure . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Vesteralen on July 13, 2012, 09:08:00 AM
I was scanning through some older posts for recommendations on Symphony 7.  Several posters gave their favorite versions, but I was wondering if anyone has actually compared a number of different performances and could pick the top two or three versions available at this time? At least some brief reasons why they are superior versions would also be welcome.  Thanks
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on July 15, 2012, 05:41:05 PM
Quote from: Vesteralen on July 13, 2012, 09:08:00 AMI was scanning through some older posts for recommendations on Symphony 7.  Several posters gave their favorite versions, but I was wondering if anyone has actually compared a number of different performances and could pick the top two or three versions available at this time? At least some brief reasons why they are superior versions would also be welcome.  Thanks


Here's what I said elsewhere. YMMV and all that.

QuoteSymphony No. 7 "Sinfonia Antartica"

A fine work sadly lumbered with a silly title, a wind machine, and some illustrative quotations in the score which add little to the musical experience. Previn is slowest, grandest, scariest, but you'll need to program the spoken parts out of it. Bakels' "objectivity" works here – he is scary and heavy but swift. Between them, Previn and Bakels most successfully present this music independent of its filmscore origins, instead an evocation of the fragile human psyche dwarfed by a vast and dangerous universe.
Boult is very heroic and "stiff upper lip", which is a rather limited view on this work. Thomson is a bit generalised, has some uncomfortable phrasing in the first movement, and a terribly underwhelming organ in the "ice-fall" section. Haitink is well played and recorded but rather anonymous, with a fake-sounding wind machine. Handley falls flat, with no atmosphere or emotion, just a spectacle for orchestra (and the recording isn't spectacular enough to get away with that). Barbirolli's is good for a first performance, but now sounds like a recording of mere soundtrack music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Vesteralen on July 15, 2012, 06:14:17 PM
Thanks.  Sorry I didn't see this post earlier.  Actually the Naxos disc is the one currently in my collection.  I used to have the Previn on LP and cassette tape (we're going way back).  I may still have the tape somewhere, but it's probably unplayable by this time.  I'll stick with Bakels, then.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 15, 2012, 06:33:11 PM
Quote from: Vesteralen on July 15, 2012, 06:14:17 PM
Thanks.  Sorry I didn't see this post earlier.  Actually the Naxos disc is the one currently in my collection.  I used to have the Previn on LP and cassette tape (we're going way back).  I may still have the tape somewhere, but it's probably unplayable by this time.  I'll stick with Bakels, then.

Handley and Thomson both have fine Sinfonia Antarctica performances. I would seek these out.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 16, 2012, 02:03:00 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 15, 2012, 05:41:05 PM

Here's what I said elsewhere. YMMV and all that.


FWIW, it was Bakels who convinced me of the piece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 16, 2012, 04:53:13 AM
The earlier Boult version (Decca/Belart) is a great one I think.  Boult's rather objective way with Vaughan Williams really works well here. Some time ago I reviewed a rather odd polar exploration CD which featured Boult's version complete (but without separate tracks for the movements) and, uniquely, it included separately some of the Scott film music. If I can find the review I'll post it here.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Oct11/antartica_CD41024.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Vesteralen on July 16, 2012, 06:51:44 AM
Thanks for the link.

I tend to agree with the reviewer that the spoken word segments don't really bother me.  I remember getting really used to them on the Previn recording and I almost missed them (in context) on the Naxos disc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 26, 2012, 03:32:22 PM
I've managed to catch up with the Hickox recording of the 1913 version of the London Symphony (only a decade after it was issued).

It's great to have another 20 minutes of vintage VW to listen to!

The curious thing is that I find that both version work. The 1913 version is (obviously) more extended and reflective, but still well-structured. The 1936 (?) version is more concise, but you don't feel short-changed. Now I can just choose which to listen to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on July 26, 2012, 06:21:56 PM
In the recent issue of IRR, I read about the new edition of RVW's symphony no. 5, as recently recorded by Yates on Dutton. I wish I'd remembered to bring in the issue so that I could quote from it, but.... apparently a timpani entry in the Scherzo Andante has been "corrected" on the basis that it sounds wrong but RVW didn't notice due to poor hearing. The CD reviewer correctly points out that, as the composer actually heard the piece in concert a number of times and never raised an objection, we don't really have the right to second-guess the score, even if to some ears it seems wrong. Nonetheless, this is the new "official" view of the symphony.

>:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2012, 05:17:22 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 26, 2012, 06:21:56 PM
In the recent issue of IRR, I read about the new edition of RVW's symphony no. 5, as recently recorded by Yates on Dutton. I wish I'd remembered to bring in the issue so that I could quote from it, but.... apparently a timpani entry in the Scherzo has been "corrected" on the basis that it sounds wrong but RVW didn't notice due to poor hearing. The CD reviewer correctly points out that, as the composer actually heard the piece in concert a number of times and never raised an objection, we don't really have the right to second-guess the score, even if to some ears it seems wrong. Nonetheless, this is the new "official" view of the symphony.

>:D

I wrote a review of the CD for the RVW Journal, which might be of interest.

Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 5 in D major (1938-43) – New Edition edited by Peter Horton (2008)

With Christopher Wright : Concerto for Violin and Orchestra 'And then there was silence...'
Momentum.
Fenella Humphreys, violin
Christopher Watson, tenor
Royal Scottish National Orchestra
Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra
Martin Yates
DUTTON EPOCH CDLX 7289

Firstly I must make it clear that anyone expecting the equivalent of the 1913 version of 'A London Symphony' will be disappointed, as there is very little difference between this new edition of Symphony No 5 and the earlier 1946 OUP version.  In fact, my non-musical ear was unable to hear any difference at all.  Nevertheless, Peter Horton's very informative booklet note informs us that partly due to the composer's famously illegible handwriting, mistakes did occur in the published score – mainly in matters of phrasing and articulation, although the most important being a one-bar delay in a timpani entry in the Romanza.  Mr Horton suggests that the composer's encroaching deafness may have resulted in his not noticing it when he conducted the first performance at the Proms in June, 1943.  His deafness also, according to Mr Horton, resulted in the composer adding an accent to the opening note, which has, controversially perhaps, been omitted from the 2008 Edition.

Whatever one's view of the new edition, any new recording of Vaughan Williams's Fifth Symphony is to be welcomed – especially one as good as this.   In many ways the performance reminded me of the underrated sibelian interpretation by Sir Alexander Gibson (EMI, 1982).  As with Gibson's version, there is a Tapiola-like intensity to the climax of the first movement and a very strong sense of rhythmic intensity throughout the performance.  Where Yates's new version scores over the Gibson is in the outstanding 2011 Dutton recording from the Lighthouse, Poole - which allows us to hear the clarity of instrumentation in great detail. The start of the Romanza has an almost Brucknerian intensity to it, which accompanied by a beautifully articulated cor anglais solo, is deeply affecting.  The radiant final movement possesses a great sense of inevitability and a sense of home-coming, which I imagine provided considerable spiritual comfort on its first appearance in war-time London.

Also of great interest are the two accompanying works by Christopher Wright (born 1954).  Momentum composed in 2008 is, as the composer points out 'fast, rhythmic and colourful' – an extremely enjoyable and very approachable jazzy score lasting just over seven minutes and a fine curtain raiser to this CD. 

Christopher Wright's Violin Concerto (And then there was silence...) was written in memory of the composer's wife Ruth, who tragically died from cancer in the summer of 2009.  The last movement, which reminded me a little of Kenneth Leighton's Symphony No. 3 Laudes Musica, includes a tenor solo in a setting of the first verse of the poem Echo by Christina Rossetti.  As Elis Pehkonen points out in the accompanying note 'Words cannot convey the beauty and emotional content of this music.  It has to be in the ears of the listener.'  Fenella Humphreys is the outstanding soloist.

The accompanying booklet demonstrates Dutton's characteristically high production values.  Apart from the excellent notes, it contains a charming photo of Vaughan Williams and Ursula sitting on the steps of Epsom Parish Church, laughing, in 1947.  The back page of the booklet features a photograph of Christopher Wright and of William Fawke's bronze statue of Vaughan Williams in Dorking.

I had come across Martin Yates as a result of his previously released  Dutton recordings of the symphonies of Richard Arnell and Stanley Bate.  In his charming reply to my unsolicited fan mail, the late Richard Arnell referred to 'the excellent conductor Martin Yates' – this outstanding CD can only serve to confirm this verdict and is recommended with great enthusiasm.



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 29, 2012, 03:31:34 PM
I'm having a VW time at the moment, listening to many of his works. I knew VW in my teens and his music hasn't waned in my affections. You know about his reputation as a doyen of English mid C20 music with the implicit judgement that his music is stolid and homely and not as exciting as others'. However, as I listen to some of his later works I am continually struck by how consistently his works "work" and are highly satisfying, even though they seem very unpretentious (ie Symphony No.8, Violin Sonata &c).

On the theme of recordings of his symphonies: back in the early 80s I had LPs or cassettes of the Andre Previn and LSO recordings (I can remember I had Symphonies 3-7 at least), and have some of the reissues on CD now. These seemed very good at the time and I still regard them as a touchstone for other interpretations.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on July 29, 2012, 10:15:37 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 29, 2012, 03:31:34 PMYou know about his reputation as a doyen of English mid C20 music with the implicit judgement that his music is stolid and homely and not as exciting as others'. However, as I listen to some of his later works I am continually struck by how consistently his works "work" and are highly satisfying, even though they seem very unpretentious (ie Symphony No.8, Violin Sonata &c).

On the theme of recordings of his symphonies: back in the early 80s I had LPs or cassettes of the Andre Previn and LSO recordings (I can remember I had Symphonies 3-7 at least), and have some of the reissues on CD now. These seemed very good at the time and I still regard them as a touchstone for other interpretations.

So you are not a collector of multiple cycles? Luckily for you I agree with you on the virtues of the Previn set, though I prefer Thomson for 8 (broader tempos) and Haitink for the Sea Symphony (much better sound).

You know, I'm not sure I've ever heard the violin sonata! I see it's on disc 13 of the EMI collector's edition....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: The new erato on July 29, 2012, 11:32:51 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 16, 2012, 04:53:13 AM
The earlier Boult version (Decca/Belart) is a great one I think.  Boult's rather objective way with Vaughan Williams really works well here.
Just received this Decca set and must try this. Played no 4/6 last night and found the sound quality just so-so; slightly dissapointed with it even though I know what to expect from an early 50'ies recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 29, 2012, 11:40:05 PM
For me the Violin Sonata with the SQ No 2 is VW's finest chamber works. It's one of those late craggy works which greatly appeal to me (the Fantasia on the Old 104th is another one - notwithstanding the opening sounding a bit like the children's record, 'Sparky's Magic Piano'  :D)

I agree about Haitink's recording of 'A Sea Symphony' which has an epic grandeur unlike any other - certainly it is the recording which won me round to this work - which I had never really appreciated before. To me the turbulent 6th Symphony is one of the greatest and most thought-provoking 20th century symphonies. Recordings by Boult (Decca), Haitink, Berglund, Stokowski (very fast Epilogue) and Andrew Davis are all excellent (as is Thomson for that matter).  Recently I have come to admire Previn's version more and agree that his RCA cycle is excellent.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on July 29, 2012, 11:44:10 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 29, 2012, 11:40:05 PMFor me the Violin Sonata with the SQ No 2 is VW's finest chamber works. It's one of those late craggy works which greatly appeal to me (the Fantasia on the Old 104th is another one - notwithstanding the opening sounding a bit like the children's record, 'Sparky's Magic Piano'  :D)

I guess I know what I'll be listening to tonight, then :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 29, 2012, 11:45:19 PM
Quote from: The new erato on July 29, 2012, 11:32:51 PM
Just received this Decca set and must try this. Played no 4/6 last night and found the sound quality just so-so; slightly dissapointed with it even though I know what to expect from an early 50'ies recording.

I'll be interested to hear what you think of the rest of the set. The great thing is that it includes the Everest recording of Symphony No 9 (excluded from the Belart box), with Boult's tribute speech at the start. I still think that these are the most consistently great performances of the symphonies. Hope you enjoy the rest of it - listening to No 7 recently led to me realising how fine that performance was.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 29, 2012, 11:47:47 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 29, 2012, 11:44:10 PM
I guess I know what I'll be listening to tonight, then :)

Sparky's Magic Piano?  ;D

The EMI Collectors Edition is a great, inexpensive way, to discover the music and the Music Group of London's CD with the Violin Sonata on is in a class of its own.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2012, 02:21:02 AM
Aye, that Violin Sonata is top-tier RVW.

I should probably revisit the Previn, someday.  I only remember not being 'grabbed' by his account of either the Fifth or Seventh, but I may have been the slippery one at the time . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 30, 2012, 04:56:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2012, 02:21:02 AM
Aye, that Violin Sonata is top-tier RVW.

I should probably revisit the Previn, someday.  I only remember not being 'grabbed' by his account of either the Fifth or Seventh, but I may have been the slippery one at the time . . . .


Karl
Previn's 'A London Symphony' and No 8 are possible best ever versions from the RCA set. No 8, in particular, has a magical type quality at the opening which is IMHO unique.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2012, 04:59:57 AM
Thanks for the word, Jeffrey. When I undertake that revisitation, those two symphonies will be the priority!

I've had to start the morning with some Tchaikovsky, but then I am spinning the Violin Sonata!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on July 30, 2012, 06:18:25 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2012, 02:21:02 AMAye, that Violin Sonata is top-tier RVW.

I should probably revisit the Previn, someday.  I only remember not being 'grabbed' by his account of either the Fifth or Seventh, but I may have been the slippery one at the time . . . .

Not confusing with his Prokofiev, I hope...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2012, 02:57:19 AM
No. Of the Prokofiev symphonies, I think I've heard Previn in the Sixth only.  But it was back at roughly the same period of my life.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 01, 2012, 03:20:02 AM
Which version of the Violin Sonata do you have Karl?

I think that the Music Group of London's is my favourite version - but I have known it since I was about 17/18!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 01, 2012, 03:41:09 AM
The Menuhin brother-sister team, Jeffrey.  Goodness knows it is a piece which deserves more extensive representation in the recordings catalogue!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 01, 2012, 05:58:53 PM
Well, the violin sonata has not made a huge impression on me so far, but familiarity may help.

BTW, I recently bought the Collins reissue of Marriner conducting symphonies 5 and 6. The tempos of 6 seemed rather quick to me, and interpretation lacked the ferocity I think is needed here (or which I'm used to at least, thanks to Boult). 5 was alright, but I don't think it'll displace Previn, Thomson, Handley. I'll need to listen again, of course.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 01, 2012, 11:47:29 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 01, 2012, 03:41:09 AM
The Menuhin brother-sister team, Jeffrey.  Goodness knows it is a piece which deserves more extensive representation in the recordings catalogue!

That's a fine CD too Karl.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 01, 2012, 11:49:38 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 01, 2012, 05:58:53 PM
Well, the violin sonata has not made a huge impression on me so far, but familiarity may help.

BTW, I recently bought the Collins reissue of Marriner conducting symphonies 5 and 6. The tempos of 6 seemed rather quick to me, and interpretation lacked the ferocity I think is needed here (or which I'm used to at least, thanks to Boult). 5 was alright, but I don't think it'll displace Previn, Thomson, Handley. I'll need to listen again, of course.

I largely agree - although I found that their was a more compassionate feel to Marriner's performance of No 6. Not a first choice by any means - but an interesting take on the work I feel.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 13, 2012, 02:07:45 AM
I see there are no mentions here yet of the new Dutton cd with no less than four world premiere recordings: the 1898 Serenade, 1900 Bucolic Suite, 1943 Dark Pastoral (slow movement of the unfinished Cello Concerto) and the Orchestral Suite from Folksongs of the Four Seasons, done by Roy Douglas.

I missed the news during my vacation in Turkey, but am eager to order it. Did anyone hear it already?

           (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51817djq1sL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: eyeresist on August 13, 2012, 05:38:52 PM
I wasn't aware of this. Amazon says it's not released until 12 September. A couple of reviews have just appeared on Amazon UK, so I guess the release is being staggered.

[asin]B008TYGEE0[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 14, 2012, 04:02:10 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 13, 2012, 05:38:52 PM
I wasn't aware of this. Amazon says it's not released until 12 September. A couple of reviews have just appeared on Amazon UK, so I guess the release is being staggered.

The first review on Amazon.co.uk, by S.H. Smith, here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B008R7Q1UG/ref=s9_simh_gw_p15_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0S5N1622C8VPAEV4HH6W&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=317828027&pf_rd_i=468294) is fine and interesting, particulary regarding both early pieces. According to him, we were wrong in waiting for the Bucolic Suite for so long, as it doesn't offer much 'real' RVW, but compensated for that loss by the unexpected qualities of the early (1898) Serenade. Hope to report my findings as soon as I can convince my family to allow me to order for it.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2012, 03:23:17 AM
Was away on holiday, so sadly couldn't get to the all Vaughan Williams Prom in London last night (symphonies 4,5 and 6). I did watch the performance of Symphony No 6 on BBC 4 last night and thought it excellent. I also had the Dutton CD waiting for me at home - so I shall report back on that in due course.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 06, 2012, 11:16:45 PM
I wonder if anyone else likes the ballet 'Old King Cole' (1923) as much as I do. Even though it is quite a 'light' work I find the 'Pipe Dance' oddly uplifting and often play this work. I have a CD of Vaughan Williams conducting it - one of the very few examples of Vaughan Williams conducting his own work - on an unusual Dutton CD 'From Vaughan Williams' attic' (as the recordings are from the composer's own collection). There is however a very fine modern recording with Richard Hickox conducting (complete with chorus) on a generally excellent EMI British Composers 2CD set which I would recommend. Boult's recording on Belart (with a great 'Tintagel' by Bax and 'Perfect Fool' by Holst and Butterworth works) is also wonderful (and often available dirt cheap on Amazon). Actually, having just checked, they all seem pretty cheap on Amazon.
[asin]B00004TQQ6[/asin]
[asin]B001OD6100[/asin]
[asin]B00002652F[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kishnevi on October 07, 2012, 03:39:19 AM
The Hickox recording is included in that 30 CD EMI Collector's Edition.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 09, 2012, 07:45:24 PM
Re-hearing the 6th

I finally found a recording of the 6th Symphony that I can embrace wholeheartedly: Handley/RLPO.

Also, hearing the symphony again caused me to reflect on other composers' possible influence on VW. As I've heard, VW didn't hold Mahler in very high regard. But now I hear the third mvt. scherzo of the 6th as sounding very like the "Rondo-Burleske" from Mahler's 9th - certainly the two movements are close in spirit - and the finale sounds almost like Mahler's finale with the louder sections removed.

In similar fashion, the 8th Symphony seems to be modeled on Hindemith's Sinfonia serena, dating from only a few years before. The differing instrumentation in each movement, and the overall mood, are strikingly similar to the Hindemith.
Title: Re: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 10, 2012, 03:05:08 AM
Quote from: Velimir on October 09, 2012, 07:45:24 PM
Re-hearing the 6th

I finally found a recording of the 6th Symphony that I can embrace wholeheartedly: Handley/RLPO.

Cool!

And I don't think I had noted that link with the Hindemith erewhile.

Viz. Mahler: To be generally out-of-synch with a composer, does not rule out drawing some musical benefit from his work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 10, 2012, 12:27:47 PM
Quote from: Velimir on October 09, 2012, 07:45:24 PM
Re-hearing the 6th

I finally found a recording of the 6th Symphony that I can embrace wholeheartedly: Handley/RLPO.

Also, hearing the symphony again caused me to reflect on other composers' possible influence on VW. As I've heard, VW didn't hold Mahler in very high regard. But now I hear the third mvt. scherzo of the 6th as sounding very like the "Rondo-Burleske" from Mahler's 9th - certainly the two movements are close in spirit - and the finale sounds almost like Mahler's finale with the louder sections removed.

In similar fashion, the 8th Symphony seems to be modeled on Hindemith's Sinfonia serena, dating from only a few years before. The differing instrumentation in each movement, and the overall mood, are strikingly similar to the Hindemith.

Interesting! The Symphony which reminds me of the Vaughan Williams Symphony No 6 is No 3 'Liturgique' by Honegger - although the birdsong Epilogue is more hopeful than in the VW work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: CriticalI on October 10, 2012, 05:24:11 PM
Quote from: Velimir on October 09, 2012, 07:45:24 PMAs I've heard, VW didn't hold Mahler in very high regard.

Weird, as I think they'd work very well paired in the concert hall. I was actually compiling a fantasy program recently:

VW3 + M4
VW2 + M1
Sea Symphony + M8
9 + 9
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 17, 2012, 10:39:49 PM
Andrew Manze's RVW performances at the BBC Proms just in case you guys haven't heard them:

http://www.youtube.com/v/C2BmRfQ5txM&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/v/q9YoEETzYsE&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/v/I1suBbnp5Go&feature=plcp

I haven't watched any of these in their entirety. I did watch a little of the 5th tonight. Sounded good. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on October 28, 2012, 09:20:57 AM
(http://www.pictures.martysaudiophilevinylcollection.com/Soundtracks/slides/herrmann-conducts%20great%20british%20film%20scores.jpg)

As posted on the Herrmann thread, taking in this piece of vinyl this morning.  Along with William Walton (Escape Me Never) on Side B, RVW makes a mark with the beautiful 49th Paralell: Prelude (from the film of the same name (released in the U.S. as The Invaders).  I have not seen the movie, but now would like to hear the rest of the score, or at least what is out there. It seems this is the one to get?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lSLmVT4kL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Herrmann brings the NPO through this piece very nicely and the Phase 4 lets it breathe.  Does the above Gamba effort do the work justice?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 28, 2012, 02:15:14 PM
How are you doing with your survey of the symphonies, Bill?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on October 28, 2012, 05:05:40 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 28, 2012, 02:15:14 PM
How are you doing with your survey of the symphonies, Bill?


Total enjoyment here, Karl.  However, I am finding that they are better heard over and over.  His themes are not made for humming, at least for meand more for a "pay attention" ear.  Not a bad one in the lot, IMO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on November 01, 2012, 07:15:38 PM
I took another decent listen to A Sea Symphony from the set you sent my way:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61YaCUoXktL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I found it fairly engaging the first go around, but much more so on the second listen.  However, when I turned to A London Symphony, I was immediately drawn in and let it play through numerous times.  In fact, even before I gave this second symphony a spin from my Boult set, I purchased this tonight:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YRJ4AGHML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


It also includes the 8th, but the 2nd is what I was fishing for.  The second and third movements are absolutely below the green lemon, my friend.   ;)

On a side note, I was not taken by Haitink's Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis.  I guess I am too attached to this one:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/95/37/4dd4c6da8da0ad2e72091110.L._AA300_.jpg)

Your thoughts?

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 01, 2012, 07:29:23 PM
Vaughan Williams is one of those composers that rewards the listener time and time again. I think the first symphony I heard by RVW was Symphony No. 3 - A Pastoral Symphony and, honestly, I wasn't quite so taken with on the first time around, but it seemed that the second, third, and fourth listens really made a greater impression on me. The symphony is, like all of RVW's, like putting pieces of puzzle together and once you've done this you finally see the larger picture. I love all nine symphonies. I normally don't like a composer's entire symphony cycle, but RVW's is very special to me and I hope you'll enjoy them all someday too, Bill. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on November 01, 2012, 07:33:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 01, 2012, 07:29:23 PM
Vaughan Williams is one of those composers that rewards the listener time and time again. I think the first symphony I heard by RVW was Symphony No. 3 - A Pastoral Symphony and, honestly, I wasn't quite so taken with on the first time around, but it seemed that the second, third, and fourth listens really made a greater impression on me. The symphony is, like all of RVW's, like putting pieces of puzzle together and once you've done this you finally see the larger picture. I love all nine symphonies. I normally don't like a composer's entire symphony cycle, but RVW's is very special to me and I hope you'll enjoy them all someday too, Bill. :)

I also took in the Haitink 8th, MI....really enjoyed it.  The third is on my list next. I also just ordered some of his film music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 01, 2012, 07:39:07 PM
Quote from: Bogey on November 01, 2012, 07:33:16 PM
I also took in the Haitink 8th, MI....really enjoyed it.  The third is on my list next. I also just ordered some of his film music.

Excellent, Bill. Yeah, the 8th is really something else. I need to get more familiar with RVW's film music as well. I see that I can buy all the Chandos film music recordings in a box set now. I might explore that at some point. Right now, my mind is wrapped up in Russian/Soviet music. Killer stuff. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on November 01, 2012, 07:41:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 01, 2012, 07:39:07 PM
Excellent, Bill. Yeah, the 8th is really something else. I need to get more familiar with RVW's film music as well. I see that I can buy all the Chandos film music recordings in a box set now. I might explore that at some point. Right now, my mind is wrapped up in Russian/Soviet music. Killer stuff. :)

Yup. Chandos has a number of film discs that look interesting, even beyond RVW.  However, I had a snippit of his film music on an lp, so am starting with Vol 2. We'll see where it goes.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 01, 2012, 07:43:51 PM
Quote from: Bogey on November 01, 2012, 07:41:03 PM
Yup. Chandos has a number of film discs that look interesting, even beyond RVW.  However, I had a snippit of his film music on an lp, so am starting with Vol 2. We'll see where it goes.

Yeah, they've got a good bit of those film recordings available. One of my favorites is this one:

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/018/447/0001844737_350.jpg)

Alwyn's Odd Man Out is IMHO one of the greatest film scores ever composed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 02, 2012, 03:10:48 AM
Quote from: Bogey on November 01, 2012, 07:15:38 PM
... On a side note, I was not taken by Haitink's Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis.  I guess I am too attached to this one:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/95/37/4dd4c6da8da0ad2e72091110.L._AA300_.jpg)

Your thoughts?

Girding my loins for travel to-morrow, Bill ... but I'll plan on revisiting the Haitink Fantasia on a Theme of Tallis while aloft, and will report.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 02, 2012, 05:35:18 AM
Quote from: Bogey on November 01, 2012, 07:15:38 PM
I found it fairly engaging the first go around, but much more so on the second listen.  However, when I turned to A London Symphony, I was immediately drawn in and let it play through numerous times.  In fact, even before I gave this second symphony a spin from my Boult set, I purchased this tonight:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YRJ4AGHML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Ah...my favorite Second. The Barbirolli Second and Eighth (the Eighth coupled with Elgar Enigma) were my first RVW purchases...my first classical purchases actually. Winter of '66. I still have the LPs (Vanguard Everyman) but own the Dutton remastered CD too.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/vw28barb.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 04, 2012, 10:03:33 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 01, 2012, 07:43:51 PM
Yeah, they've got a good bit of those film recordings available. One of my favorites is this one:

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/018/447/0001844737_350.jpg)

Alwyn's Odd Man Out is IMHO one of the greatest film scores ever composed.

Have been in India for two weeks without internet so catching up. Totally agree with you about 'Odd Man Out' a truly symphonic score. The magnificent doomed processional reminds me of 'The March to Calvary' from Rozsa's 'Ben Hur'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 04, 2012, 06:42:08 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 04, 2012, 10:03:33 AM
Have been in India for two weeks without internet so catching up. Totally agree with you about 'Odd Man Out' a truly symphonic score. The magnificent doomed processional reminds me of 'The March to Calvary' from Rozsa's 'Ben Hur'.

I think Alwyn is so underrated. He wrote some magnificent music, which thankfully has been well recorded several times. I think I prefer Hickox's symphony cycle above them all.

Sorry to get this off-topic guys. You may now resume to your regularly scheduled programming. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 04, 2012, 07:32:02 PM
Another recording of RVW's 5th soon to be released:

[asin]B009FA3T5O[/asin]

Looks like a promising recording. I like this team's last recording which they performed RVW's 4th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2012, 07:25:35 AM
I listened to RVW's Symphony No. 5 this morning and I'm not sure what came over me but I weep over the Romanza movement. There is something so deeply moving it within that it conjured up several images in my mind of things that have long been gone in my life. This is just another testament to the power of RVW's music. He's one of the only composers who have caused me to loose control of my emotions. I can't think of any other composer who has done this, although Shostakovich has come very close. Anyway, I'm just rambling here, but I thought I would share this thought with you guys.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2012, 07:28:41 AM
Doesn't surprise me at all; there's something magickal about that movement in particular.  While visiting with my brother and sister-in-law I played that symphony in particular for them, felt the goosebumps in the Romanza all over again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2012, 07:35:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 14, 2012, 07:28:41 AM
Doesn't surprise me at all; there's something magickal about that movement in particular.  While visiting with my brother and sister-in-law I played that symphony in particular for them, felt the goosebumps in the Romanza all over again.

There certainly is, Karl. It doesn't matter how many times I listen to this symphony, it just keeps getting better and better. I'm finding this out with a lot RVW's works. Another moment in a RVW work that touched me was the opening of Job's Dream from Job, A Masque for Dancing. This is usually a subdued opening, but if you go back and listen to Hickox's recording on EMI, the volume seems louder than any other recording I've heard. I think this really made me take notice of it more than I have in the past when I listened to it. In fact, I'm humming that melody as I'm typing this! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2012, 07:50:16 AM
Well, it would be a funny world if we all heard music the same. (Certainly GMG would be a far less interesting place . . . .)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2012, 07:54:25 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 14, 2012, 07:44:50 AM
Because of the love-fest from Mirror Image and Karl Henning over the Romance movement of RVW's Symphony No. 5, I decided to hear for myself.

Sorry to disappoint, but no emotional catharsis occurred.

As is the case with everything by this composer I've heard, it sounds vaguely like movie music with the overall effect similar to cold oatmeal.

:P

You didn't disappoint me. You simply don't have ears for the music. Not everyone does. I'm sure there are composers you enjoy that I simply do not and would never enjoy even after taking the time to understand them. We're all wired differently.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2012, 07:57:00 AM
It's time for the RVW avatar to re-emerge. Well, there it is.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2012, 08:03:41 AM
Today feels like an RVW day!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2012, 08:07:35 AM
Just for the record - I think the Romanza movement is miraculous, literally 'out of this world'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2012, 08:07:53 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 14, 2012, 07:44:50 AM
Because of the love-fest from Mirror Image and Karl Henning over the Romance movement of RVW's Symphony No. 5, I decided to hear for myself.

Sorry to disappoint, but no emotional catharsis occurred.

As is the case with everything by this composer I've heard, it sounds vaguely like movie music with the overall effect similar to cold oatmeal.

:P

By the way, what composers do you like again? Give me your top 10.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2012, 08:09:07 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2012, 08:07:35 AM
Just for the record - I think the Romanza movement is miraculous, literally 'out of this world'.

It really is, Johan, but there's so much RVW that inhabits an otherworldly dimension.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2012, 08:10:43 AM
Agreed. There are more visionary moments in RVW's music. But this Romanza is something special, as is the Tallis Fantasia.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2012, 08:22:52 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 14, 2012, 08:18:26 AM
In no particular order:

Haydn
Stravinsky
Mozart
Bartok
Beethoven
Webern
Brahms
Ravel
Carter
Bach

Very nice. We have several favorites in common: Bartok, Stravinsky, and Ravel. My list would look something like this (in no particular order):

Shostakovich
Ravel
Bartok
Vaughan Williams
Villa-Lobos
Prokofiev
Stravinsky
Debussy
Sibelius
Tippett
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2012, 08:23:37 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 14, 2012, 08:12:42 AM
. . . the emotions attached to the music are not necessarily intrinsic to the music itself.

Well, I agree with this entirely.  But that the music is designed to create a resonant effect which is not merely on the plane of interest, or intellectual challenge, seems to me equally unassailable.  The Romanza provokes an incredibly sweet, expansive internal response.  For want of a better term, I'll call that emotional, although I certainly do not believe there is a specific emotion, with any name attached, to which this effect of the music (which is a property of the score, it is certainly something the composer wrought) can be tied.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2012, 08:32:27 AM
Yeah Karl, I couldn't imagine listening to the last movement of A Pastoral Symphony with a blank face. I'm sorry but I'm not a machine and thankfully I never prescribed to this way of thinking.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2012, 08:33:14 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 14, 2012, 08:28:45 AM
Yes, there are some pieces of music (and I gave an example in that other thread of "Touch her sweet lips and part" by William Walton from his score to Henry V) that do cause an emotional resonance, and it is a mystery to me as to why and what in the music is doing it.

A mystery, indeed.

But when a composer knows how to drive that, run with it, I say
: )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2012, 08:51:51 AM
I'll work backwards : )

Quote from: sanantonio on November 14, 2012, 08:42:10 AM
To each his own, I say, and to all a good time

:)

Words to live in harmony by!

Quote from: sanantonio on November 14, 2012, 08:42:10 AM
That said, this aspect of music is not of great importance to me.  It is a fleeting effect; whereas other aspects and other kinds of works have a much longer lasting effect on me and interest me much more.

Well, I don't know that it is a fleeting effect, though after you say other things have a much longer lasting effect on [you], so if you find it fleeting, I certainly take you at your word : )

Goodness knows there are many facets of music which command my close attention.  But when a piece creates this sort of moment of numinous clarity, I don't find that fleeting at all, its memory is still clear to me this morning, though it was last Thursday that I actually listened to the piece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2012, 08:52:50 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 14, 2012, 08:42:10 AM

To each his own, I say, and to all a good time

:)

My sentiments exactly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2012, 09:28:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 14, 2012, 08:51:51 AM
Goodness knows there are many facets of music which command my close attention.  But when a piece creates this sort of moment of numinous clarity, I don't find that fleeting at all, its memory is still clear to me this morning, though it was last Thursday that I actually listened to the piece.

Which speaks of the emotional resonance this work holds over the listener long after it's been heard. We will never know what RVW felt or even meant with this movement, but it is undeniable, to this listener at least, that it is one of his most compelling creations for reasons I've expressed earlier.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 17, 2012, 02:06:19 PM
I agree with Johan's opinion of the Romanza movement form the 5th, one of my earliest favourite pieces of music and still a favourite. However, I will say that with this, and other pieces of VW, you do need a good recording, I have heard some awful ones. The recording I first heard of the 5th, which is still a favourite, is Previn's.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Dundonnell on November 17, 2012, 02:24:25 PM
Thank about serendipity ;D

I have just read all this AFTER posting the Proms performances of Nos. 4, 5 and 6 on the GMG page on Facebook :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: The new erato on November 18, 2012, 01:24:31 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 14, 2012, 08:12:42 AM
Last evening our cat died - that caused me to have an emotional reaction, I felt sad over the loss of this little creature who for over 14 years provided us with cute and funny interaction, but fierce and ruthless determination when going after pests.   In her last few months she suffered from a variety of ailments but kept up a brave face and did not complain and did her best to continue her various pursuits around the house.  This was all very  touching.
As the owner of two charming cats - and a faithful Border Coliie which I had to put down this summer after 16 years of faithful companionship - I feel with you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on November 19, 2012, 04:55:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 04, 2012, 07:32:02 PM
Another recording of RVW's 5th soon to be released:

[asin]B009FA3T5O[/asin]

Looks like a promising recording. I like this team's last recording which they performed RVW's 4th.

I listened to this a few days ago! I don't have many RVW 5th recordings - I rely on Previn/RPO and also have Bakels - but this one initially underwhelmed me, and the woodwinds and (fantastic) brass distractingly had me thinking about the very, very American sound of the orchestra. Then something happened in the Romanza and finale such that I really got pulled into the music's undertow and came out feeling really emotionally affected. Couldn't tell you why or how after one listen, but this recording really brings out the piece's melancholy face, I think. I want to hear it again.

A fairly bloated "Cockaigne," though. Maybe that was why I started with a negative view.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 19, 2012, 07:58:29 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 19, 2012, 04:55:54 AM
I listened to this a few days ago! I don't have many RVW 5th recordings - I rely on Previn/RPO and also have Bakels - but this one initially underwhelmed me, and the woodwinds and (fantastic) brass distractingly had me thinking about the very, very American sound of the orchestra. Then something happened in the Romanza and finale such that I really got pulled into the music's undertow and came out feeling really emotionally affected. Couldn't tell you why or how after one listen, but this recording really brings out the piece's melancholy face, I think. I want to hear it again.

A fairly bloated "Cockaigne," though. Maybe that was why I started with a negative view.

Thanks for the review snapshot, Brian. I figured this would be a good performance of the RVW's 5th. The recording is too expensive right now. I can certainly wait on it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 25, 2012, 08:30:00 AM
Attended the Pilgrim's Progress at the Coliseum in London last night (first fully staged production since the 1950s!) An amazing experience. The staging set in a prison (complete with electric chair) was so at odds with the music (especially in part 2), yet in a weird sort of way it worked. I think that this may be VW's greatest work - certainly the most moving spiritually.  Since seeing it I've found it impossible to listen to any other music.  Would like to write more - but in a rush.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 09, 2012, 07:12:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 25, 2012, 08:30:00 AM
Attended the Pilgrim's Progress at the Coliseum in London last night (first fully staged production since the 1950s!) An amazing experience. The staging set in a prison (complete with electric chair) was so at odds with the music (especially in part 2), yet in a weird sort of way it worked. I think that this may be VW's greatest work - certainly the most moving spiritually.  Since seeing it I've found it impossible to listen to any other music.  Would like to write more - but in a rush.

Would love to read it anyhow.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 05, 2013, 10:28:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 04, 2013, 03:53:57 AM
Whenever I listen to it, Flos campi is my favorite RVW work of all.

You may be on to something, Karl. It had been a while, so this morning I was listening to...


[asin]B000000AXI[/asin]


...and found myself thinking the same thing. The music is filled with such a sense of longing and nostalgia, very lush. It's easy to get caught up into it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: jlaurson on January 31, 2013, 07:31:13 AM
Time to sit out on the Veranda!

Quote from: jlaurson on January 31, 2013, 07:17:40 AM
Earlier this:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000013XF.01.L.jpg)
R. Vaughan Williams
Symphony No.2 "London"
K.Bakels / Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra

Naxos (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000013XF/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000013XF/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000013XF/goodmusicguide-21)

Now this:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000647HP.01.L.jpg)
R. Vaughan Williams
Symphony No.3 "Pastoral" et al.
K.Bakels / Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra

Naxos (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000647HP/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000647HP/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000647HP/goodmusicguide-21)

Handley 1 is amazing; can't find fault with the Bakels 2, either, though. Now back to Handley for No.3... seeing that I can't find any of my other RVW.

Am very interested in hearing about other's RVW-favorite interpretations.

Problem with RVW is that every interpretation seems to have champions that say it's the bee's knees and detractors that say "No [Previn, Haitink, Slatkin, Boult II...] is rubbish.

Talking about Symphonies 1, 2, and 3, any prevailing opinions?



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 31, 2013, 07:54:49 AM
Some of my favourite versions:

A Sea Symphony: Haitink EMI

No 2: Hickox (1913 version)

No 2: Goossens (1920 version).

No 2: Previn RCA (1936 version)

No 3: Previn RCA

No 4: Berglund EMI

No 5: Vaughan Williams/Barbirolli EMI

No 6: Boult (Decca)

Antartica: Boult Decca

No 8: Previn RCA

No 9: Stokowski CALA/Handley CFP (for those harps at the end!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: jlaurson on January 31, 2013, 09:21:13 AM
Votes collected:





































Sy/InterpreterBoult IBoult IIHaitinkHandleyHickoxPrevinSlatkinA.DavisThomsonOther
No.1 A Sea Symphony   I0II000I000
No.2 London0I00II '13I '36001Goosens '20, Barbi
No.3 PastoralI0II0II0000
No.4I000000I0Berglund, Bernie
No.5000000000Barbi
No.6I000000000
No.7 AntarcticaI000000000
No.800000I0000
No.9000I00000Stokes
[/size]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Leo K. on February 09, 2013, 07:27:26 AM
I am rambling here as I listen to The Sea Symphony. Vernan Hadley conducting the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra.

This is my main Williams listening source:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Nov10/RVW_collector_2066362.jpg)

Vaughan Williams is entitled to foretelling the future. Unlike the romantics from Beethoven on through the nineteenth century, Vaughan Williams does not turn his gaze inwards and write of heart-searchings. His knowledge of human nature is not conspicuously less than that of the romantic intro verts, but his gaze is extraverted. 'Look around you' was the advice he gave to young English composers 'for your inspiration'. For himself looking around was the source not merely of his inspiration (in the sense of a starting-point for composition) but also of his understanding of the world. the prophetic type of mind in that it pierces to the heart of whatever is the object of its penetrating gaze. The Old Testament prophet was such a person who could see into the nature of good and evil.

Such a mind apprehends that consequences, however belated, follow from good and evil acts, that the mills of God grind maybe slowly but exceeding small, and is therefore in a position to foretell with confidence what those consequences will be. Prophecy has thus come in common par lance to mean, as indeed by the derivation of the word it is D Major. The second motif of the first movement is a melodic figure juxtaposing duplets and triplets (one-two and three-two-three-four) showing that the second beat is divided into eighth notes and the third beat is divided into triplets. VAUGHAN WILLIAMS'S idiom, achieved after muck casting about in the schools and the wider world of music in the way that has been described in many biographical accounts, is so markedly personal that it has often drawn on to it the reproach of mannerism. It might therefore be supposed that the range of thought to be expressed therein would be limited by it.

Vaughan Williams's is bit before embarking on his first symphony and it was a project on a grand scale. The text of this symphony comes from Walt Whitman's 'Leaves of Grass'. This symphony has two strong unifying motives declared in the first movement 'Song of the Exposition' or 'Song for All Seas, All Ships' (Andante Maestoso). The first is the harmonic motif of two chords whose roots are a third apart. The brass fanfare opens the symphony with a B Flat Minor chord followed by the choir singing, "Behold, the sea itself!" The full orchestra then comes in and the theme modulates. This is a choral symphony; his longest. It was started in 1903 and took him six years to complete it. He was 30 when he began sketching it. This is one of the first symphonies where a choir is used throughout the symphony. It set the stage for choral symphonic music in England in the first half of the twentieth century. It was first titled 'Ocean'. It was first performed at the Leeds Festival in 1910 with Vaughan Williams conducting.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 09, 2013, 07:38:42 AM
Some great thoughts, Leo! I was about to make a post here myself. :)

During a recent exchange of recordings with my Dad, I found that one of the RVW sets I received was still sealed, which is this one:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001BLR7AI.01.L.jpg)

My questions is this: I own all of RVW symphony cycles but the only one I haven't heard is this Naxos set, is it worth breaking the seal to listen to these recordings?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Leo K. on February 09, 2013, 12:17:51 PM
Much appreciated John, it seems my posts usually fall under the radar, so thanks.

If you open that set, let me now how it sounds.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 09, 2013, 12:59:19 PM
I have the Handley set, though I do not recall giving the Sea Symphony in that set a listen.

No wonder, with the Whitman text, that the piece is extroverted
: )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 09, 2013, 05:39:56 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 09, 2013, 12:17:51 PM
Much appreciated John, it seems my posts usually fall under the radar, so thanks.

If you open that set, let me now how it sounds.

No worries. Most of my posts unless they contain a negative opinion aren't noticed either. :) But it's all good, I'm here for music not to be the 'hit of the party' so to speak. I'd like to hear from some people who own the Naxos RVW symphony series before I made a decision as to whether not to open the set or not.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2013, 04:38:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 09, 2013, 12:59:19 PM
I have the Handley set, though I do not recall giving the Sea Symphony in that set a listen.

No wonder, with the Whitman text, that the piece is extroverted
: )

It's not very memorable, IMO Haitink does a much better job with the Sea Symphony.  I feel that Handley is more at home with the cataclysmic war symphonies which are the stand outs in his cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 10, 2013, 05:44:02 AM
Well, and I do remember the Haitink account, which is indeed excellent.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Leo K. on February 10, 2013, 06:23:26 AM
I only know Sea Symphony under the helm of Handley, I will definitely have to seek out other accounts such as Haitink. Thanks for the heads up David.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 07:32:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 09, 2013, 07:38:42 AM


My questions is this: I own all of RVW symphony cycles but the only one I haven't heard is this Naxos set, is it worth breaking the seal to listen to these recordings?

If you have all the other cycles, you will definitely hear performances in this cycle that are better than a good deal of performances in various other cycles.

I don't have them all (in fact I think only the two Boults and Handley, other than this, and a few individual performances), but even just on their own I was very much impressed with some of the Bakels readings esp., and the sound.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 11, 2013, 07:36:17 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 07:32:26 AM
If you have all the other cycles, you will definitely hear performances in this cycle that are better than a good deal of performances in various other cycles.

I don't have them all (in fact I think only the two Boults and Handley, other than this, and a few individual performances), but even just on their own I was very much impressed with some of the Bakels readings esp., and the sound.

Thanks, Jens. I have heard the Daniel performance of the A Sea Symphony is disappointing. If you've heard this performance, what do you make of it? Bakels is a very good conductor. I own a set of his Rimsky-Korsakov on BIS that is quite impressive. Decisions, decisions....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 07:50:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 11, 2013, 07:36:17 AM
Thanks, Jens. I have heard the Daniel performance of the A Sea Symphony is disappointing. If you've heard this performance, what do you make of it? Bakels is a very good conductor. I own a set of his Rimsky-Korsakov on BIS that is quite impressive. Decisions, decisions....

Last time around the Sys. of VW, I alternated between Bakels & Handley -- and hit Handley for the Sea Symphony. Which was a winner all 'round.
I was extremely pleased with Bakels in Nos.2 & 5... and disappointed in none. The way I listened, I didn't hit upon either of the two Daniel performances.

Now that I've been digging these two babies out again...


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511T%2BP-SjGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
R. Vaughan Williams
Symphonies 4 & 6 + TT-Fantasy
D.Mitropoulos  (#4, TTF), L.Stokowski (#6) / NYPhil

Sony "British Pageant"  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003D1WXFI/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003D1WXFI/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003D1WXFI/goodmusicguide-21)

I must say that Mitropoulos' Fourth is very nice... and also hopelessly overrated.
Title: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Leo K. on February 13, 2013, 08:40:27 AM
Looks like i'm going to seek out Haitink for the Sea Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on February 13, 2013, 03:10:33 PM
Does anyone else think that Boult's RVW "swings?"
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2013, 04:10:51 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 13, 2013, 03:10:33 PM
Does anyone else think that Boult's RVW "swings?"

No.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Leo K. on February 24, 2013, 11:10:32 AM
Listening to the Symphony No.2 a LOT lately. Handley.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Nov10/RVW_collector_2066362.jpg)

The fourth movement is fittingly exhausting. It treads through several themes and emotions, at one point ambient and brooding while at another stately, as if in a Russian waltz. The swells that end the third movement, "Scherzo: Allegro Vivace", which juxtapose the galloping, woodwind heavy opening; drip with beauty. The fourth and final movement is perhaps the most grandiose as it slowly crescendos several times from sweeping string and horn melodies to crashing cymbals and minor scale horn explosions. The longest section, at nearly nineteen minutes, this adventure and relaxation, alternating between the two continuously. It's like sitting by a warm fire place, listening to the great stories of an eccentric uncle's past excursions.

As for the music itself, it is nothing short of breathtaking. Stately, menacing and inviting when it needs to be, it's always gorgeous and engulfing. The heartbreaking violin and cello more personal. The soft melodic and harmonic interplay of the strings and french horns that dominate much of the symphony's running time are warm and inviting. At the same time the forte climaxes, filled with loud horns, cymbal crashes and sweeping strings, simply scream spectacle– and communal.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on February 24, 2013, 11:19:38 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 13, 2013, 03:10:33 PM
Does anyone else think that Boult's RVW "swings?"

What exactly do you mean, David?  Or what in particular are you referring to?  Which symphony(ies)?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Leo K. on February 24, 2013, 11:23:12 AM
If the music is played well, it swings  ;)
Title: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Leo K. on February 25, 2013, 02:03:59 PM
I'm not usually an emotional listener when it comes to orchestral music, on some level I am, but with Vaughn's 2nd, that second movement makes me depressed and bleak, it's almost too much. It's so beautiful I actually feel like crying!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2013, 02:54:39 PM
The Romanza of the Fifth gives me chills every time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on March 07, 2013, 09:53:38 PM
I listened to the Dutton recording of the 'new' [2008] performance edition of the 5th last night. I saw 'new edition' and '5th symphony' and nearly fell off my chair with excitement to listen (praise to Spotify!) and... I did not notice any difference. Apparently the revisions are all very minor.

Still, it's always great to hear new recordings of RVW and this one is nice enough.

Damning with faint praise as Dr Karl will no doubt think.  ;)

(Also hello all! Yep, i'm still alive...)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on March 07, 2013, 10:03:22 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 31, 2013, 09:21:13 AM
Votes collected:





































Sy/InterpreterBoult IBoult IIHaitinkHandleyHickoxPrevinSlatkinA.DavisThomsonOther
No.1 A Sea Symphony   I0II000I000
No.2 London0I00II '13I '36001Goosens '20, Barbi
No.3 PastoralI0II0II0000
No.4I000000I0Berglund, Bernie
No.5000000000Barbi
No.6I000000000
No.7 AntarcticaI000000000
No.800000I0000
No.9000I00000Stokes
[/size]

Can I play?

1st - Haitink
2nd - Tough one... Usually Hickox, because I feel i'm missing something otherwise, but otherwise Handley's analogue recording with the London Phil, not the Royal Liverpool phil one. I'll vote Hickox I guess.
3rd - Previn of course.
4th - Berglund
5th - Previn again.
6th - Haitink (But 49/100 of the other times it would be Berglund!)
7th - Haitink
8th - Handley
9th - Thompson
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 08, 2013, 02:23:03 AM
A Ben sighting! Huzzah!

How are you, lad?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: jlaurson on March 08, 2013, 05:39:34 AM
Votes collected:




































Sy/InterpreterBoult IBoult IIHaitinkHandleyHickoxPrevinSlatkinA.DavisThomsonOther
No.1 A Sea Symphony I0III000I000
No.2 London............0I00III '13I '36001Goosens '20, Barbi, HandleyLPO
No.3 Pastoral...........I0II0III0000
No.4........................I000000I0Berglund x2, Bernie
No.5........................00000I000Barbi x2, Menuhin, Previn-Tel
No.6........................II0I00001/20Berglund x1.5
No.7 Antarctica........I0II001/20000
No.8........................001/2I 1/20I000Barbi
No.9........................00II0000I 1/2Stokes, Bakels
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2013, 07:49:04 AM
Continuing where I left off (I think), my votes:

5 - Menuhin, Previn (Telarc), Barbirolli

6 - Boult I, Berglund, A. Davis

7 - Haitink, Previn. Boult I

8 - Barbirolli, Haitink, Handley

9 - Haitink, Thompson, Bakels


Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2013, 06:20:25 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 13, 2013, 03:10:33 PM
Does anyone else think that Boult's RVW "swings?"

Certainly it does in the CD which accompanies the new issue of BBC Music Magazine - a wonderful 1972 Prom performance of Symphony No 6 (my favourite) with the BBC SO.  I think that Boult's objective way with Vaughan Williams really suits this symphony (he conducted the first performance). I think that Barbirolli's 'warmer' manner suits Symphony No 5 (EMI version) better. By the way the coupling on the BBC Magazine CD is Frank Bridge's 'The Sea' in a terrific 2013 recording (Brabbins). This is perhaps my favourite ever BBC Music Mag. CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 06, 2013, 04:15:13 AM
[enjoying some tea on the Veranda]

Looking for some comments on Previn's RVW. Any thoughts on his interpretations and performances? I only own one disc (see below), and was enjoying last night, especially the 4th, perhaps interested in exploring more from him. I know he's recorded some on RCA and Telarc so this question is referencing both.
Thanks!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CQF4GH0FL.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 06, 2013, 08:22:00 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 06, 2013, 04:15:13 AM
Looking for some comments on Previn's RVW.

I've had 2-6 and 9 in the Previn/RCA cycle. Summary, good (sometimes very good) performances, but let down for me by the rather glassy and one-dimensional sonics. The first mvt. of the 4th sounds a bit sluggish, but otherwise no complaints performance-wise. I also have Previn's later 2 on Telarc, which is a good performance with none of the older cycle's sonic drawbacks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on April 06, 2013, 09:07:53 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 06, 2013, 04:15:13 AM
[enjoying some tea on the Veranda]

Looking for some comments on Previn's RVW. Any thoughts on his interpretations and performances? I only own one disc (see below), and was enjoying last night, especially the 4th, perhaps interested in exploring more from him. I know he's recorded some on RCA and Telarc so this question is referencing both.
Thanks!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CQF4GH0FL.jpg)

I think Mirror Image (John) can fill you in on this particular performance.  I think John has every complete Vaughan Williams symphony cycle.

I can't comment, I only have the Boult/EMI Classics set, with London Philharmonic/New Philharmonia.  Symphonies 2-9 are bloody fantastic!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Parsifal on April 06, 2013, 09:18:07 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 06, 2013, 04:15:13 AM
[enjoying some tea on the Veranda]

Looking for some comments on Previn's RVW. Any thoughts on his interpretations and performances? I only own one disc (see below), and was enjoying last night, especially the 4th, perhaps interested in exploring more from him. I know he's recorded some on RCA and Telarc so this question is referencing both.
Thanks!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CQF4GH0FL.jpg)

The release you show was plucked from Previn's 60's cycle, which was actually recorded by Decca's production team (Ken Wilkinson) in Kingsway Hall.   I have it in a now out of print box CD set which I have not found time to listen to (too much Vaughan Williams, to little time).

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 06, 2013, 01:32:19 PM
I have the Previn RCA set which is excellent.  The best performances were recorded last I think. Nos 2,3 and 5 are as good as any in my view - the others are all strong. Previn's No 3 is my favourite version as his No 8 which has a uniquely magical quality to it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on April 07, 2013, 11:36:49 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/615K65KFldL._SX300_.jpg)

Where have you been all my life?

Thank you, Sarge & vandermolen, for calling this to our attention.  Such "discoveries" make dropping in occasionally worthwhile, and some are so good as to require a public expression of gratitude.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2013, 11:38:41 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 07, 2013, 11:36:49 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/615K65KFldL._SX300_.jpg)

Where have you been all my life?

Thank you, Sarge & vandermolen, for calling this to our attention.  Such "discoveries" make dropping in occasionally worthwhile, and some are so good as to require a public expression of gratitude.

Hey, David, good to see you back. That is a great disc, I agree.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidRoss on April 07, 2013, 03:08:11 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2013, 11:38:41 AM
Hey, David, good to see you back. That is a great disc, I agree.
That's kind of you, Greg. I hadn't even finished hearing the entire symphony via Mog before getting click-happy on Amazon! Previn & Thomson seem destined to become alternates instead of first choices.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 07, 2013, 03:50:49 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2013, 11:38:41 AM


Quote from: DavidRoss on April 07, 2013, 11:36:49 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/615K65KFldL._SX300_.jpg)

Where have you been all my life?

Thank you, Sarge & vandermolen, for calling this to our attention.  Such "discoveries" make dropping in occasionally worthwhile, and some are so good as to require a public expression of gratitude.

Hey, David, good to see you back. That is a great disc, I agree.

A Dave sighting! Huzzah!

And thank you both (and Sarge & Jeffrey) for pointing this album out.  Starting with Towards the Unknown Region, myself . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Parsifal on April 07, 2013, 06:41:35 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 07, 2013, 11:36:49 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/615K65KFldL._SX300_.jpg)

Where have you been all my life?

Thank you, Sarge & vandermolen, for calling this to our attention.  Such "discoveries" make dropping in occasionally worthwhile, and some are so good as to require a public expression of gratitude.

Barbirolli's 5th and London Symphony recordings were my introduction to these works, and I can't say I've heard anything that I felt equaled them.  Same is true of Barbirolli's recordings of the Elgar Symphonies.

I must say I wish EMI would pay more respect to Barbirolli's legacy.  They did release an "Icon" box of Barbirolli, but sparsely selected from his discography.  I would be first on line to buy a "Complete Barbirolli on EMI" box."  He did a superb Brahms Symphony cycle with the Wiener Philharmoniker which has never had a proper CD release.  It would be worth it just to have those recordings properly mastered for CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 07, 2013, 10:24:39 PM
David and Karl - I'm very pleased that you think so highly of the EMI Barbirolli Symphony 5 - I agree that there is no better performance and, as with Parsifal, I agree that it and the EMI 'A London Symphony' are wonderful performances (that of 'A London Symphony' being more controversially slow in the scherzo).
When I was a boy I think that my older brother wanted VW Symphony 4 for Christmas and my mother bought the Barbirolli VW No 5 by mistake - but this was a good thing as we both loved the work. I recall my mother having an EMI King's College sampler LP and apparently both my brother and I rushed into the living room, from different directions in our flat (appartment) when we heard a very striking piece of music, which turned out to be the last of the 'Five Mystical Songs' in the wonderful David Willcock's recording on EMI.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 08, 2013, 06:14:27 AM
I'm a "ringer" in a college chorus performance this month of the Five Mystical Songs, Jeffrey; lovely music. (Not the first I've sung in them!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 09, 2013, 12:20:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 08, 2013, 06:14:27 AM
I'm a "ringer" in a college chorus performance this month of the Five Mystical Songs, Jeffrey; lovely music. (Not the first I've sung in them!)

One of his greatest works I think Karl. How exciting that you are performing the work - great news.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Martin Lind on May 11, 2013, 06:31:31 PM
Hi! I bought the big Emi Vaughan Williams Box some time ago. I know already his symphonies, some of his shorter orchestrals works, string quartetts. But now I have this 30 CD box and I really don't know where to start to explore more of Vaughan Williams works. Any recommendations?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 11, 2013, 06:37:52 PM
Quote from: Martin Lind on May 11, 2013, 06:31:31 PM
Hi! I bought the big Emi Vaughan Williams Box some time ago. I know already his symphonies, some of his shorter orchestrals works, string quartetts. But now I have this 30 CD box and I really don't know where to start to explore more of Vaughan Williams works. Any recommendations?

I don't know who performs it, or if it's even in that set, but Flos Campi is one of RVW's best work. Talk about mystical.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 12, 2013, 10:38:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2013, 12:20:06 AM
One of his greatest works I think Karl.

Ha, finally! About the only time we seem to disagree ...  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 12, 2013, 01:49:34 PM
Well, I regret having been he who cast up the bone of contention : )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 12, 2013, 03:40:35 PM
Martin Lind

Lucky you with 30 CDs!

I am a terribly organised listener, I will decide, for example to listen to the symphonies of a composer and I listen to them in order. However recently I have begun to do this in reverse, I find it makes the earlier works more understandable.

So with VW, why not start with the late works and work back to the beginning?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 12, 2013, 10:33:46 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 12, 2013, 01:49:34 PM
Well, I regret having been he who cast up the bone of contention : )
;) Bone of contention - ha! La pomme de la discorde.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 24, 2013, 03:31:03 PM
I've just been listening to a CD from Naxos/Marco Polo entitled The Best of Chinese Pop, which is a series of tracks of arrangements of Chinese Pop music for violin and orchestra.

I knew that Chinese folk-music shared with European folk-music the pentatonic scale, but I was amazed to listen to these tunes. Slowed down a little and with a less jaunty accompaniment many sounded exactly like "The Maid and the Soldier" (fictitious title) sung in a pub in Hampshire c1904, or some of the themes for the Norfolk Rhapsodies. If you run out of VW to listen to you should pick up this disc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 24, 2013, 03:47:11 PM
I'm gonna hear VW's 5th Symphony in concert on Wednesday, as part of the Grant Park Festival.

This will be my first-ever live hearing of a VW symphony, I think. (I missed an earlier performance this year of the 8th.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2013, 11:43:52 PM
Quote from: Velimir on June 24, 2013, 03:47:11 PM
I'm gonna hear VW's 5th Symphony in concert on Wednesday, as part of the Grant Park Festival.

This will be my first-ever live hearing of a VW symphony, I think. (I missed an earlier performance this year of the 8th.)

Great news - let us know what you make of it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 25, 2013, 02:47:15 AM
Quote from: Velimir on June 24, 2013, 03:47:11 PM
I'm gonna hear VW's 5th Symphony in concert on Wednesday, as part of the Grant Park Festival.

This will be my first-ever live hearing of a VW symphony, I think. (I missed an earlier performance this year of the 8th.)

This concert will be streaming live on www.wfmt.com starting at 6:30pm central time.

Enjoy the show, Velmir!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2013, 03:02:36 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 25, 2013, 02:47:15 AM
This concert will be steaming ....

Panning the event ahead of time, Greg? Tut-tut! 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 25, 2013, 03:05:15 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 25, 2013, 03:02:36 AM
Panning the event ahead of time, Greg? Tut-tut! 8)

Ha! It should be a scorcher!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 03, 2013, 12:42:53 PM
Just listening to the 1952 recording of the ubiquitous 'Lark Ascending' played by Jean Pougnet (LPO/Adrian Boult). I must say that I am so over familiar with this work, largely through the Classic FM exposure that I expected to be rather bored by it. Quite the opposite in fact! The emotion is underplayed and therefore, paradoxically, more moving. I really enjoyed this much more than expected. Pougnet's performance is much less 'sugary' and 'no nonsense' than many more modern recordings and is, in my view, a much greater performance, which I shall return to.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Dona-nobis-pacem/dp/B00005Q2X8/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1380833037&sr=1-1&keywords=Lark+ascending+Pougnet
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: jlaurson on October 03, 2013, 01:49:30 PM
bump:

Votes collected:




































Sy/InterpreterBoult IBoult IIHaitinkHandleyHickoxPrevinSlatkinA.DavisThomsonOther
No.1 A Sea Symphony I0III000I000
No.2 London............0I00III '13I '36001Goosens '20, Barbi, HandleyLPO
No.3 Pastoral...........I0II0III0000
No.4........................I000000I0Berglund x2, Bernie
No.5........................00000I000Barbi x2, Menuhin, Previn-Tel
No.6........................II0I00001/20Berglund x1.5
No.7 Antarctica........I0II001/20000
No.8........................001/2I 1/20I000Barbi
No.9........................00II0000I 1/2Stokes, Bakels
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2013, 02:53:34 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 03, 2013, 01:49:30 PM
bump:

Votes collected:

How does a performance get a half vote...or one and a half votes? And what does III '13 and I '36 mean?

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: jlaurson on October 04, 2013, 05:48:48 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2013, 02:53:34 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 03, 2013, 01:49:30 PM
bump:

Votes collected:




































Sy/InterpreterBoult IBoult IIHaitinkHandleyHickoxPrevinSlatkinA.DavisThomsonOther
No.1 A Sea Symphony I0III000I000
No.2 London............0I00III '13I '36001Goosens '20, Barbi, HandleyLPO
No.3 Pastoral...........I0II0III0000
No.4........................I000000I0Berglund x2, Bernie
No.5........................00000I000Barbi x2, Menuhin, Previn-Tel
No.6........................II0I00001/20Berglund x1.5
No.7 Antarctica........I0II001/20000
No.8........................001/2I 1/20I000Barbi
No.9........................00II0000I 1/2Stokes, Bakels

How does a performance get a half vote...or one and a half votes? And what does III '13 and I '36 mean?

Sarge

Half-votes are where someone was split on a favorite for one particular symphony.

'13 and '36 are the versions (revisions) of that symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 31, 2013, 08:10:08 PM
Coming out very soon...

[asin]B00E4VUJP2[/asin]

Apparently, all of these works have not been recorded before. I'll definitely be picking this one up when it comes out.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 01, 2013, 01:10:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 31, 2013, 08:10:08 PM
Coming out very soon...

[asin]B00E4VUJP2[/asin]

Apparently, all of these works have not been recorded before. I'll definitely be picking this one up when it comes out.

This is already available over here (downtown rural East Sussex  8)). It is a super CD. The Solent is especially fine but disconcerting to hear it away from its reappearance in Symphony No 9. I also enjoyed the music from the Mayor of Casterbridge. In fact the whole CD will bring much pleasure to VW fans.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 01, 2013, 06:55:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 01, 2013, 01:10:28 AM
This is already available over here (downtown rural East Sussex  8)). It is a super CD. The Solent is especially fine but disconcerting to hear it away from its reappearance in Symphony No 9. I also enjoyed the music from the Mayor of Casterbridge. In fact the whole CD will bring much pleasure to VW fans.

Excellent! I think this comes out week after next here is the States. Sounds like a winning recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on November 01, 2013, 08:07:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 31, 2013, 08:10:08 PM
Coming out very soon...

[asin]B00E4VUJP2[/asin]

Apparently, all of these works have not been recorded before. I'll definitely be picking this one up when it comes out.

The Solent is superb-a magically evocative and atmospheric work which I can't believe hasn't been recorded before. The other works I was less impressed by, but, after all, they are juvenilia.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 01, 2013, 05:19:40 PM
If I remember rightly VW reused a theme from the Solent in his Ninth Symphony. "In my end is my beginning".

:-)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 02, 2013, 03:42:29 AM
 >:(
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 01, 2013, 05:19:40 PM
If I remember rightly VW reused a theme from the Solent in his Ninth Symphony. "In my end is my beginning".

:-)

Yes, he did - good point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 02, 2013, 06:21:05 PM
Quote from: kyjo on November 01, 2013, 08:07:22 AM
The Solent is superb-a magically evocative and atmospheric work which I can't believe hasn't been recorded before. The other works I was less impressed by, but, after all, they are juvenilia.

Did you buy this recording as a download, Kyle? It's not out yet in the States.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: The new erato on November 03, 2013, 01:30:18 AM
They ship across the pond you know, I used to buy quite a lot from the states, not so much with the recent postage increases, but just recently some ATMA discs from amazon.ca.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on November 11, 2013, 07:00:04 AM
In honour of Veterans' Day/Remembrance Day

Symphony No. 5 in D major

Boult
London Philharmonic Orchestra

[asin]B00004YA0V[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2013, 07:05:58 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 11, 2013, 07:00:04 AM
In honour of Veterans' Day/Remembrance Day

Symphony No. 5 in D major

Boult
London Philharmonic Orchestra

[asin]B00004YA0V[/asin]

A beautiful choice, Ray. I'm probably going to play Britten's Ballad of Heroes or Sinfonia da Requiem.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 11, 2013, 10:44:11 AM
I played the lovely William Denis Browne (killed at Gallipoli) song 'To Gratiana, dancing and singing'. Apparently Ursula Vaughan Williams thought it to be the most beautiful English song.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 12, 2013, 03:17:55 PM
The Solent disk recently arrived and I have been listening to it.

All the pieces on it are great but the Solent is particualrly good. When it the main theme returns about 2/3 through it's one of the great melodies, turns your heart over.... made me want to go to Hampshire and look out to the Isle of Wight!

A must-buy disk for all VW enthusiasts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2013, 04:52:33 AM
I think December may be re-immersion into RVW for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on November 15, 2013, 07:00:34 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2013, 04:52:33 AM
I think December may be re-immersion into RVW for me.

Sounds like a plan, Karl!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Bogey on November 16, 2013, 03:33:09 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2013, 04:52:33 AM
I think December may be re-immersion into RVW for me.

An early Christmas gift to oneself.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on November 16, 2013, 03:46:38 PM
Quote from: Bogey on November 16, 2013, 03:33:09 PM
An early Christmas gift to oneself.

Indeed! VW is one of the most rewarding composers I know.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on December 21, 2013, 07:16:43 AM
Winter Solstice Theme Day

Vaughan Williams

Sinfonia Antartica No. 7


Boult
London Philharmonic Orchestra

EMI Classics

[asin]B00004YA0V[/asin]

Damn, it is cold in Winnipeg today, but that is no surprise.  It's been cold like this for most of December.

Today, it is -29 Celcius, with a wind chill of -39 Celcius.  For the Farenheiters, that is -20F, wind chill of -38F  :D

This image comes to mind:

(http://www.bullshift.net/data/images/2013/09/the-shining-frozen-jack-nicholson.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 01:55:12 PM
Canada + winter = brrrr.  8)

Am I correct in thinking that British Columbia doesn't get the kind of winters as the rest of Canada? Educate me here, Ray.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: The new erato on December 22, 2013, 02:02:41 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 21, 2013, 07:16:43 AM


This image comes to mind:

(http://www.bullshift.net/data/images/2013/09/the-shining-frozen-jack-nicholson.jpg)
Jack Nicholson never looked so good.
+ 4C in Bergen Norway.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on December 22, 2013, 02:13:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 01:55:12 PM
Canada + winter = brrrr.  8)

Am I correct in thinking that British Columbia doesn't get the kind of winters as the rest of Canada? Educate me here, Ray.

Generally, you are right John.  BC is usually nowhere near as cold as say Saskatchewan and Manitoba.  BC's weather is similar to Washington State in the winter time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 22, 2013, 02:13:30 PM
Generally, you are right John.  BC is usually nowhere near as cold as say Saskatchewan and Manitoba.  BC's weather is similar to Washington State in the winter time.

Ah yes, I can imagine that Saskatchewan and Manitoba are cold. I'm sure Alberta is too. Quebec and Ontario of course. I wonder how The Maritimes' winters are?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on December 22, 2013, 04:15:53 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
Ah yes, I can imagine that Saskatchewan and Manitoba are cold. I'm sure Alberta is too. Quebec and Ontario of course. I wonder how The Maritimes' winters are?

Quebec and Southern Ontario are milder winters too, generally.  So is the case in the Maritimes.

It's a different kind of cold out there.  Damper, but milder temperatures.  We have a dryer cold.

-20 on the coasts or in Southern Ontario can feel just as cold as a -30 day in Manitoba.  :-\
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 04:23:35 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 22, 2013, 04:15:53 PM
Quebec and Southern Ontario are milder winters too, generally.  So is the case in the Maritimes.

It's a different kind of cold out there.  Damper, but milder temperatures.  We have a dryer cold.

-20 on the coasts or in Southern Ontario can feel just as cold as a -30 day in Manitoba.  :-\

Interesting, Ray. Winters here in Georgia are comparatively weak. January is the coldest month with temperatures getting to maybe 20 °F at the lowest. But we have received snow several times.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on December 22, 2013, 04:35:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 04:23:35 PM
Interesting, Ray. Winters here in Georgia are comparatively weak. January is the coldest month with temperatures getting to maybe 20 °C at the lowest. But we have received snow several times.

+20 C at the lowest???  How the hell do you get snow in this kind of weather??  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 04:41:03 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 22, 2013, 04:35:35 PM
+20 C at the lowest???  How the hell do you get snow in this kind of weather??  :D

Damn, I meant 20 °F. Please excuse my stupidity as I can't even think straight today. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on December 22, 2013, 04:43:51 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 04:41:03 PM
Damn, I meant 20 °F. Please excuse my stupidity as I can't even think straight today. :)

No worries.   :D  Ok, so that is about -7 Celcius.  Yup, that can mean snow.

I feel bad when there is heavy snowfall in places that just aren't equipped to handle it.  Can create a lot of havoc and chaos.  Even in some parts of Canada, when they get a big dumping of snow, they have to call in the military for help.  :D

Here, it is ho hum, business as usual.  Bring it on.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 04:47:47 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 22, 2013, 04:43:51 PM
No worries.   :D  Ok, so that is about -7 Celcius.  Yup, that can mean snow.

I feel bad when there is heavy snowfall in places that just aren't equipped to handle it.  Can create a lot of havoc and chaos.  Even in some parts of Canada, when they get a big dumping of snow, they have to call in the military for help.  :D

Here, it is ho hum, business as usual.  Bring it on.  ;D

Well, the Georgia DOT are pretty equipped at handling snow now as they help clear off the major highways while the city streets are being taken care of by the county. It's not that big of a deal for us up here in Northeast Georgia now, but I bet 100 years ago, people would freak out at the mere sight of snow down here. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 30, 2013, 10:31:28 AM
Starting my first proper exploration into Vaughan Williams' world. For so long, I have only known the 5th and 6th symphonies (plus various other well known pieces), so I am so excited to be going through this cycle..

[asin]B0002RUAFQ[/asin]

As I'm writing this, the Sea Symphony is coming to a close, and I have one word: WOW. Incredible stuff, there are so so many magical moments in this magnificent piece that are truly stunning and very moving. Such an evocative, spellbinding work. I look forward to a second listen but will continue my journey with the 2nd next in the new year. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 12:36:01 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 30, 2013, 10:31:28 AM
Starting my first proper exploration into Vaughan Williams' world. For so long, I have only known the 5th and 6th symphonies (plus various other well known pieces), so I am so excited to be going through this cycle..

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As I'm writing this, the Sea Symphony is coming to a close, and I have one word: WOW. Incredible stuff, there are so so many magical moments in this magnificent piece that are truly stunning and very moving. Such an evocative, spellbinding work. I look forward to a second listen but will continue my journey with the 2nd next in the new year. :)

Thumbs up! My favorite section of A Sea Symphony is The Explorers. Do give this section another listen at some point. Absolutely spellbinding.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 30, 2013, 03:05:54 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 30, 2013, 10:31:28 AM
Starting my first proper exploration into Vaughan Williams' world. For so long, I have only known the 5th and 6th symphonies (plus various other well known pieces), so I am so excited to be going through this cycle..

[asin]B0002RUAFQ[/asin]

As I'm writing this, the Sea Symphony is coming to a close, and I have one word: WOW. Incredible stuff, there are so so many magical moments in this magnificent piece that are truly stunning and very moving. Such an evocative, spellbinding work. I look forward to a second listen but will continue my journey with the 2nd next in the new year. :)

The Haitink version is best of all in my view. It alerted me to the greatness of a work which had largely passed me by for forty years.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 30, 2013, 03:17:07 PM
Very agreeable to know, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 30, 2013, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 30, 2013, 03:17:07 PM
Very agreeable to know, Jeffrey!

Always my pleasure. :)





Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 31, 2013, 05:08:43 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 12:36:01 PM
Thumbs up! My favorite section of A Sea Symphony is The Explorers. Do give this section another listen at some point. Absolutely spellbinding.

I do remember that section being particularly mesmerizing! Great work, I was moved by much of it. Spellbinding ending as well with the juxtaposed chords between high and low.....

Jeffrey, I thought the performance was particularly great too, (even though I haven't heard any others!!), but I'm very excited to hear the rest of the cycle. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 31, 2013, 04:16:56 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 31, 2013, 05:08:43 AM
I do remember that section being particularly mesmerizing! Great work, I was moved by much of it. Spellbinding ending as well with the juxtaposed chords between high and low.....

Jeffrey, I thought the performance was particularly great too, (even though I haven't heard any others!!), but I'm very excited to hear the rest of the cycle. :)

It's a great cycle Daniel and recently reissued on Warner. Happy New Year to you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 01, 2014, 06:04:29 AM
Just finished listening to the 2nd symphony now.. wow.... so many moments of remarkable beauty. The second movement in particular was absolutely breathtaking in power and haunting gorgeousness. Tear-inducing.. The opening of the whole work was just stunning as well, and the ending of the symphony was spellbinding. Wonderful.  :'( 0:)

And now onto the Tallis Fantasia on the same disc.. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2014, 06:21:35 AM
Excellent, Daniel! Glad to hear you're enjoying RVW so much. Obviously he's an absolute favorite composer of mine.

In related RVW news for myself, I revisited Flos Campi again a few nights ago and absolutely loved every minute of it. Such an atmospheric work with such an unusual sound. Written for viola, small chorus, and small orchestra. The last moments of the work are absolute heaven.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on January 01, 2014, 06:34:12 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 01, 2014, 06:04:29 AM
Just finished listening to the 2nd symphony now.. wow.... so many moments of remarkable beauty. The second movement in particular was absolutely breathtaking in power and haunting gorgeousness. Tear-inducing.. The opening of the whole work was just stunning as well, and the ending of the symphony was spellbinding. Wonderful.  :'( 0:)

And now onto the Tallis Fantasia on the same disc.. :)

Glad to hear you are enjoying RVW, Daniel.  :)  The Tallis Fantasia is one of my favourites!  Look forward to your thoughts on Symphony No. 5 (my current favourite), and Symphony No. 6 (my first original favourite RVW symphony).

Happy listening!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 02, 2014, 08:55:44 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 01, 2014, 06:04:29 AM
Just finished listening to the 2nd symphony now.. wow.... so many moments of remarkable beauty. The second movement in particular was absolutely breathtaking in power and haunting gorgeousness. Tear-inducing.. The opening of the whole work was just stunning as well, and the ending of the symphony was spellbinding. Wonderful.  :'( 0:)

And now onto the Tallis Fantasia on the same disc.. :)

Don't forget to listen to the original 1913 version of 'A London Symphony' on Chandos. I would be interested to hear your views on the sections which VW excised, especially the magical, poetic section just before the end. For me it is the most moving section of the Symphony and I feel sorry that he removed it in 1936.
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 04, 2014, 08:43:52 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 01, 2014, 06:34:12 AM
Glad to hear you are enjoying RVW, Daniel.  :)  The Tallis Fantasia is one of my favourites!  Look forward to your thoughts on Symphony No. 5 (my current favourite), and Symphony No. 6 (my first original favourite RVW symphony).

Happy listening!  :)

Such a beautiful piece, Ray! And 5 and 6 happen to be the ones I already know, and love VERY much! I look forward to listening to them again. :)

Quote from: vandermolen on January 02, 2014, 08:55:44 AM
Don't forget to listen to the original 1913 version of 'A London Symphony' on Chandos. I would be interested to hear your views on the sections which VW excised, especially the magical, poetic section just before the end. For me it is the most moving section of the Symphony and I feel sorry that he removed it in 1936.
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Ah yes, I was reading about this. It always shocks and intrigues me when I read of how a composers revise their works with such cuts.. Would be very interested to hear this!

Am currently listening to the 3rd symphony and it's just coming to a close. Absolutely gorgeous piece, constant beauty running throughout. A true work of nature and peace. Love the sense of impressionism, and what stunning harmony this involves. Absolutely love this piece and am very excited to listen to it again.  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2014, 11:34:51 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 04, 2014, 08:43:52 AM

Am currently listening to the 3rd symphony and it's just coming to a close. Absolutely gorgeous piece, constant beauty running throughout. A true work of nature and peace. Love the sense of impressionism, and what stunning harmony this involves. Absolutely love this piece and am very excited to listen to it again.  0:)

I couldn't agree more, Daniel. Of course, I've heard this symphony times than I can count. It's certainly one of RVW's masterworks. The last movement is especially moving with the wordless soprano floating ethereally on top of that gorgeous musical canvas.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 04, 2014, 11:56:05 PM
Re the two versions of the London Symphomy, I found when I first heard the original version that both versions work equally well. This is one of those rare cases of a composer revising and neither improving nor making worse; I think it simply depends whether you want to hear a 40 minute symphony or a 50 minute one. The longer version doesn't drag and has some beautiful extra episodes, but the shorter version still works and isn't ruined by missing these episodes.
Title: Re: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 05, 2014, 12:40:54 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 04, 2014, 11:56:05 PM
Re the two versions of the London Symphomy, I found when I first heard the original version that both versions work equally well. This is one of those rare cases of a composer revising and neither improving nor making worse; I think it simply depends whether you want to hear a 40 minute symphony or a 50 minute one. The longer version doesn't drag and has some beautiful extra episodes, but the shorter version still works and isn't ruined by missing these episodes.

+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 05, 2014, 06:20:22 AM
My first listen to the 4th is just coming to an end.. Wow, what a contrast to the first three. Absolutely incredible piece, so full of aggressive energy. The ending of the first movement seemed to be the only peaceful moment in the work, and even then it's fighting against anguish... The destructive motif that runs through the work is absolutely demonstrative until that final devastating thud in the finale. An extremely thrilling, powerful and moving piece. Feeling pretty much in awe at the moment at such a masterpiece..
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on January 05, 2014, 06:27:38 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 05, 2014, 06:20:22 AM
My first listen to the 4th is just coming to an end.. Wow, what a contrast to the first three. Absolutely incredible piece, so full of aggressive energy. The ending of the first movement seemed to be the only peaceful moment in the work, and even then it's fighting against anguish... The destructive motif that runs through the work is absolutely demonstrative until that final devastating thud in the finale. An extremely thrilling, powerful and moving piece. Feeling pretty much in awe at the moment at such a masterpiece..

It is quite a fierce, aggresive symphony Daniel.  I agree!  Quite a contrast to the first 3.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 06:48:11 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 05, 2014, 06:20:22 AM
My first listen to the 4th is just coming to an end.. Wow, what a contrast to the first three. Absolutely incredible piece, so full of aggressive energy. The ending of the first movement seemed to be the only peaceful moment in the work, and even then it's fighting against anguish... The destructive motif that runs through the work is absolutely demonstrative until that final devastating thud in the finale. An extremely thrilling, powerful and moving piece. Feeling pretty much in awe at the moment at such a masterpiece..

Yes, Daniel. The 4th is a masterpiece IMHO. You should hear Bernstein conduct this symphony. Truly an explosive performance. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 05, 2014, 11:55:37 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 04, 2014, 11:56:05 PM
Re the two versions of the London Symphomy, I found when I first heard the original version that both versions work equally well. This is one of those rare cases of a composer revising and neither improving nor making worse; I think it simply depends whether you want to hear a 40 minute symphony or a 50 minute one. The longer version doesn't drag and has some beautiful extra episodes, but the shorter version still works and isn't ruined by missing these episodes.

I very much agree with this balanced assessment.  Having said that the only section of the 1913 version which I always miss when I listen to the 1936 version is the magical episode just before the Epilogue. As Michael Kennedy said, it's removal brings in the Epilogue rather too quickly. In that sense I am delighted to have the Cincinnati version under Eugene Goossens which is based on a 1920 set of parts, which retained two crucial episodes which were later ( mistakenly in my view ) jettisoned.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 05, 2014, 11:59:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 06:48:11 AM
Yes, Daniel. The 4th is a masterpiece IMHO. You should hear Bernstein conduct this symphony. Truly an explosive performance. 8)

Oh yes and also the version by Paavo Berglund which was the No. 1 choice for BBC Record Review's 'Building a Library' it is coupled with his equally fine recording of Symphony No. 6 and Alexander Gibson's underrated recording of Symphony No. 5.
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 12:00:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 05, 2014, 11:59:06 AM
Oh yes and also the version by Paavo Berglund which was the No. 1 choice for BBC Record Review's 'Building a Library' it is coupled with his equally fine recording of Symphony No. 6 and Alexander Gibson's underrated recording of Symphony No. 5.

A damn fine performance as well no doubt. I need to revisit this one actually and Berglund's 6th while I'm at it. Thanks for the reminder, Jeffrey. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 05, 2014, 12:02:40 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 12:00:17 PM
A damn fine performance as well no doubt. I need to revisit this one actually and Berglund's 6th while I'm at it. Thanks for the reminder, Jeffrey. 8)

My pleasure John! I have now posted a waspy image of the CD (a great CD, I think) above.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 05, 2014, 12:09:48 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 06:48:11 AM
Yes, Daniel. The 4th is a masterpiece IMHO. You should hear Bernstein conduct this symphony. Truly an explosive performance. 8)

Quote from: vandermolen on January 05, 2014, 11:59:06 AM
Oh yes and also the version by Paavo Berglund which was the No. 1 choice for BBC Record Review's 'Building a Library'

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 12:00:17 PM
A damn fine performance as well no doubt. I need to revisit this one actually and Berglund's 6th while I'm at it. Thanks for the reminder, Jeffrey. 8)

Poor Daniel...so many recommendations  ;D  The last time I did a comparative listen to the Fourth, Bernstein, Boult (Decca) and Slatkin came out 1, 2, 3. But I should relisten to Berglund; a performance often mentioned favorably.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 05, 2014, 12:14:21 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 05, 2014, 12:09:48 PM
Poor Daniel...so many recommendations  ;D  The last time I did a comparative listen to the Fourth, Bernstein, Boult (Decca) and Slatkin came out 1, 2, 3. But I should relisten to Berglund; a performance often mentioned favorably.

Sarge

I wish I had the money to satisfy them! I need to get some more students.. :p

I've heard about Berglund being particularly good so I would be very keen to hear. :)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 12:50:33 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 05, 2014, 12:02:40 PM
My pleasure John! I have now posted a waspy image of the CD (a great CD, I think) above.

I think the only disagreement we share, in regards to this 2-CD EMI set, is the performance of Gibson's 5th which I found rather uninspired and given that there are so many better options available, I can see how someone could overlook this performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 01:00:46 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 05, 2014, 12:14:21 PM
I wish I had the money to satisfy them! I need to get some more students.. :p

I've heard about Berglund being particularly good so I would be very keen to hear. :)

In due time, young Jedi, in due time...8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 05, 2014, 02:39:51 PM
Moderato Pesante from Vaughan Williams' Symphony No.3 is absolutely wonderful; I listened to the whole symphony for the first time and I enjoyed it very much, but the third movement particularly mesmerized me, I heard it several times in a row. That music sounds so simple and natural at first impression, yet it is deep, inspiring, powerfully expressive and beautifully evocative (something I perceive also in English composers like Holst, Delius, Bantock); I really loved the passages of solos of woodwinds and violin with harp glissandi, dreamy and floating in Impressionistic style, as well as the main theme introduced by brass and triangle, absolutely gorgeous.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 02:51:49 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 05, 2014, 02:39:51 PM
Moderato Pesante from Vaughan Williams' Symphony No.3 is absolutely wonderful; I listened to the whole symphony for the first time and I enjoyed it very much, but the third movement particularly mesmerized me, I heard it several times in a row. That music sounds so simple and natural at first impression, yet it is deep, inspiring, powerfully expressive and beautifully evocative (something I perceive also in English composers like Holst, Delius, Bantock); I really loved the passages of solos of woodwinds and violin with harp glissandi, dreamy and floating in Impressionistic style, as well as the main theme introduced by brass and triangle, absolutely gorgeous.

It is a marvelous movement indeed, Ilaria. Again, a wonderful description. :)

Right now, I just finished Symphony No. 4 and I'm playing Symphony No. 6 now. I love how both of these symphonies start off with that orchestral rush of blood to head. 8) The brass is especially biting here (listening to Bergund's performance).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 05, 2014, 03:05:23 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 02:51:49 PM
It is a marvelous movement indeed, Ilaria. Again, a wonderful description. :)

Right now, I just finished Symphony No. 4 and I'm playing Symphony No. 6 now. I love how both of these symphonies start off with that orchestral rush of blood to head. 8) The brass is especially biting here (listening to Bergund's performance).

Thank you, John; No.4 will provably be the next Vaughan Williams' symphony I will listen to, I read in previous comments it stood in great contrast with the pastoral atmosphere of No.3, so I'm very curious; but before I would like to revisit A Sea Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 05, 2014, 03:05:23 PM
Thank you, John; No.4 will provably be the next Vaughan Williams' symphony I will listen to, I read in previous comments it stood in great contrast with the pastoral atmosphere of No.3, so I'm very curious; but before I would like to revisit A Sea Symphony.

Yeah, there could be no great contrast than the 3rd and the 4th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2014, 04:30:35 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 05, 2014, 03:05:23 PM
Thank you, John; No.4 will provably be the next Vaughan Williams' symphony I will listen to, I read in previous comments it stood in great contrast with the pastoral atmosphere of No.3, so I'm very curious; but before I would like to revisit A Sea Symphony.

Splendid, Ilaria! A Pastoral Symphony is surpassing exquisite!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 26, 2014, 05:32:33 AM
Listened to the 5th symphony today for the first time in years this afternoon and it was such an experience.. It has to be one of the most beautiful symphonies ever written. Particularly the Romanza and Passacaglia, so full of tranquil power. Perfection, so heavenly.... masterwork. The way the last movement dies away to such a peaceful D Major is so moving, and the climaxes of these two last movements are so powerful too. Yes, I cried quite a lot!

Gorgeous piece.  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on January 26, 2014, 05:36:47 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 26, 2014, 05:32:33 AM
Listened to the 5th symphony today for the first time in years this afternoon and it was such an experience.. It has to be one of the most beautiful symphonies ever written. Particularly the Romanza and Passacaglia, so full of tranquil power. Perfection, so heavenly.... masterwork. The way the last movement dies away to such a peaceful D Major is so moving, and the climaxes of these two last movements are so powerful too. Yes, I cried quite a lot!

Gorgeous piece.  0:)

It is a dandy, Daniel!!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 26, 2014, 06:31:27 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 26, 2014, 05:32:33 AM
Listened to the 5th symphony today for the first time in years this afternoon and it was such an experience.. It has to be one of the most beautiful symphonies ever written. Particularly the Romanza and Passacaglia, so full of tranquil power. Perfection, so heavenly.... masterwork. The way the last movement dies away to such a peaceful D Major is so moving, and the climaxes of these two last movements are so powerful too. Yes, I cried quite a lot!

Gorgeous piece.  0:)

Absolutely, Daniel. One of my favorite symphonies. This work has meant so much for me for quite some time. Good to see it's been working it's magic on your ears and heart. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2014, 06:54:36 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 26, 2014, 05:32:33 AM
Listened to the 5th symphony today for the first time in years this afternoon and it was such an experience.. It has to be one of the most beautiful symphonies ever written. Particularly the Romanza and Passacaglia, so full of tranquil power. Perfection, so heavenly.... masterwork. The way the last movement dies away to such a peaceful D Major is so moving, and the climaxes of these two last movements are so powerful too. Yes, I cried quite a lot!

Gorgeous piece.  0:)

Which version did you listen to Daniel?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 26, 2014, 07:27:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 26, 2014, 06:54:36 AM
Which version did you listen to Daniel?

I'm not Daniel obviously, but he listened to Haitink's performance. He owns the Haitink EMI set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2014, 09:37:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 26, 2014, 07:27:57 AM
I'm not Daniel obviously, but he listened to Haitink's performance. He owns the Haitink EMI set.

Oh thanks John. I should have worked that one out myself.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 26, 2014, 09:41:16 AM
Really is suuuuuuuuch a beautiful piece. :)

Is Handley generally appreciated as one of the better cycles around here? And could I ask for favourite recordings of VW 5? :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 26, 2014, 09:43:03 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 26, 2014, 09:41:16 AM
Really is suuuuuuuuch a beautiful piece. :)

Is Handley generally appreciated as one of the better cycles around here? And could I ask for favourite recordings of VW 5? :)

Handley's cycle is quite good, but his 5th is mediocre IMHO. There's just something missing in that performance. My favorite 5th performance? That would be a toss-up between Thomson/LSO (Chandos) and Previn/RPO (Telarc).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 26, 2014, 11:24:14 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 26, 2014, 09:41:16 AM
Is Handley generally appreciated as one of the better cycles around here? And could I ask for favourite recordings of VW 5? :)

My favorite Fifths aren't from any of the complete cycles: Menuhin/RPO, Previn/RPO(Telarc) and Barbirolli/Philharmonia.

The Handley cycle has a lot going for it (it is, I think, Lethe/Sara's favorite) with a great Third and Eighth. But my favorites are Boult (Decca), Haitink and Thomson.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 26, 2014, 11:54:19 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 26, 2014, 11:24:14 AM
My favorite Fifths aren't from any of the complete cycles: Menuhin/RPO, Previn/RPO(Telarc) and Barbirolli/Philharmonia.

The Handley cycle has a lot going for it (it is, I think, Lethe/Sara's favorite) with a great Third and Eighth. But my favorites are Boult (Decca), Haitink and Thomson.

Sarge

I'll definitely have to dig out my Barbirolli/Philharmonia. I don't remember it being particularly memorable in the Romanza movement but I do remember a good Scherzo. Possibly the best I've heard on record.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2014, 02:18:17 PM
My favourites would include the Barbirolli on EMI and Vaughan Williams's own historic recording. Previn on RCA is also excellent and there is a very sibelian version by Koussevitsky which I like very much.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 03, 2014, 03:31:50 AM
Thanks for the feedback on RVW 5ths. The Previn disc looks veeerrrryy tempting.

Just finished listening to the 6th symphony. Absolutely incredible piece, especially the last movement which is so hauntingly magical. So clever harmonically at the end as well, tricking you into thinking the work will end in B Major when that only works as a perfect (or I like to think of inverted plagal) cadence into the dark home key of the work, E Minor. It's like the fierce energy has been taking away and despite trying to cling onto the light, the aftermath (home key) is still the most evident..

Masterpiece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 03, 2014, 04:09:13 AM
And oh my, the last song of 'On Wenlock Edge' is absolutely stunning and gorgeous! Listening to this over and over again!  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 03, 2014, 11:56:59 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on February 03, 2014, 03:31:50 AM
Thanks for the feedback on RVW 5ths. The Previn disc looks veeerrrryy tempting.

Just finished listening to the 6th symphony. Absolutely incredible piece, especially the last movement which is so hauntingly magical. So clever harmonically at the end as well, tricking you into thinking the work will end in B Major when that only works as a perfect (or I like to think of inverted plagal) cadence into the dark home key of the work, E Minor. It's like the fierce energy has been taking away and despite trying to cling onto the light, the aftermath (home key) is still the most evident..

Masterpiece.

Very happy to read this. Oh, how vividly I remember that afernoon, almost 40 years ago now, when I first heard it on the radio ...  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 04, 2014, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 26, 2014, 09:41:16 AM
Really is suuuuuuuuch a beautiful piece. :)

Is Handley generally appreciated as one of the better cycles around here? And could I ask for favourite recordings of VW 5? :)

My favorite is LSO/Previn.  I think its better than the Teldec in its atmosphere and dignity.  I also enjoy Boult's LPO recording.  Hickox LSO not bad but just missing a little sensitivity that Boult and Previn had.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 04, 2014, 12:45:44 PM
Quote from: Christo on February 03, 2014, 11:56:59 AM
Very happy to read this. Oh, how vividly I remember that afernoon, almost 40 years ago now, when I first heard it on the radio ...  :)

And I remember picking up that Decca Eclipse LP (LPO, Boult + speech by the composer) on my way home from school, at WH Smiths in Earl's Court Road 41 years ago. I never looked back. I was lucky as this was just before the Vaughan Williams centenary in 1972, when there was a big revival of interest in the composer. Stephen Johnson says that the nihilistic repeating chords at the end are an unresolved 'amen' - I rather like that analysis.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 04, 2014, 12:57:47 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on February 03, 2014, 04:09:13 AM
And oh my, the last song of 'On Wenlock Edge' is absolutely stunning and gorgeous! Listening to this over and over again!  0:)

Any recommendations for this song cycle?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 04, 2014, 01:32:26 PM
Quote from: Velimir on February 04, 2014, 12:57:47 PM
Any recommendations for this song cycle?
The first CD is my recommendation for the original chamber version and below is the version for orchestra, recommended also for Butterworth's charming song cycle 'Love blows as the wind blows' featuring the lovely song 'Coming up from Richmond'.
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: amw on February 04, 2014, 01:44:13 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 26, 2014, 11:24:14 AMMenuhin/RPO

That's the version I have. It's good.

I'd always been wondering how much the Fifth was affected by the ongoing WWII. The Romanza in particular always felt much more like an Elegy to me. Obviously subjective, but it's interesting to read now that RVW's original inscription for the movement was "He hath given me rest by his sorrow and life by his death" (which to my mind resonates strongly with the ongoing sacrifice of millions of young soldiers), and a later passage is derived from part of The Pilgrim's Progress which has the lyrics "Save me! Save me, Lord! My burden is greater than I can bear." The themes themselves he'd come up with years ago, obviously, but the impassioned, anguished working-out was entirely new.

Similarly the way the "triumphant" finale slowly undercuts itself with the tonic minor until the first movement's main theme interrupts with an epic Freunde, nicht diese Töne moment suggests barely contained grief, kept under strict restraint in the knowledge that if it's let out it'll take over the whole symphony. It never emerges into the open save for a few moments in the Romanza, yet I feel it's an undercurrent throughout the whole piece, and eventually leads to its collapse and that endless epilogue which seems to come from an extremely great distance.

Maybe I'm talking nonsense here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 04, 2014, 02:07:55 PM
Quote from: amw on February 04, 2014, 01:44:13 PM
That's the version I have. It's good.

I'd always been wondering how much the Fifth was affected by the ongoing WWII. The Romanza in particular always felt much more like an Elegy to me. Obviously subjective, but it's interesting to read now that RVW's original inscription for the movement was "He hath given me rest by his sorrow and life by his death" (which to my mind resonates strongly with the ongoing sacrifice of millions of young soldiers), and a later passage is derived from part of The Pilgrim's Progress which has the lyrics "Save me! Save me, Lord! My burden is greater than I can bear." The themes themselves he'd come up with years ago, obviously, but the impassioned, anguished working-out was entirely new.

Similarly the way the "triumphant" finale slowly undercuts itself with the tonic minor until the first movement's main theme interrupts with an epic Freunde, nicht diese Töne moment suggests barely contained grief, kept under strict restraint in the knowledge that if it's let out it'll take over the whole symphony. It never emerges into the open save for a few moments in the Romanza, yet I feel it's an undercurrent throughout the whole piece, and eventually leads to its collapse and that endless epilogue which seems to come from an extremely great distance.

Maybe I'm talking nonsense here.

On the contrary, what you say makes a lot of sense. I think that there are three possible influences on Symphony 5. Undoubtedly his as yet unfinished 'Pilgrim's Progress' opera/morality was one. VW was unsure that he would ever finish it and used some of the thematic material in the symphony. He was no 'ivory tower' composer and cannot, I think have failed to be influenced by the War. The symphony seems to offer a heartfelt beatific vision of peace to a war torn country. Thirdly the peace and love he found in his relationship with Ursula Wood ( who became his second wife after the death of Adeline Vaughan Williams) has also been suggested as an influence on the Fifth Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 09, 2014, 12:46:48 AM
Yesterday BBC Radio 3 reviewed the different versions of Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 9. Their preferred choice was Vernon Handley and the Liverpool PO on Classics for Pleasure at budget price (or part of a very inexpensive boxed set). This was narrowly preferred to Sir Adrian Boult's wonderfully reflective later recording on EMI ( although the earlier Decca version has more urgency). They also liked the versions by Haitink ( good news for Daniel on this forum  :)) and the saxophones in Slatkin's version were unrivalled for their sense of 'fun' (not sure that this is what Vaughan Williams intended!) Stokowski's historic version also gained considerable praise. The programme is available on the BBC iPlayer but not sure this is available outside the UK. I also like Bryden Thomson's version on Chandos.
[asin]B0000647HR[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 09, 2014, 02:46:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 09, 2014, 12:46:48 AM
Yesterday BBC Radio 3 reviewed the different versions of Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 9. Their preferred choice was Vernon Handley....Boult....Haitink ( good news for Daniel on this forum  :))

And good news for me. My top 3: Haitink, Bakels, Thomson.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 09, 2014, 03:11:08 AM
I was reading the sample of the Cambridge Companion to Shostakovich on my Kindle, and was so pleased with the content, perspicacity and tone, that (a) I forged ahead and bought the entire e-book, and (b) went ahead on spec and bought the Cambridge Companion to Vaughan Williams.  Looking forward to digging into it! (Thought really, I suppose, I should fear it . . . I may wind up feeling I need to buy up the Big Box of Vaughan Williams . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 09, 2014, 09:21:21 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 09, 2014, 02:46:11 AM
And good news for me. My top 3: Haitink, Bakels, Thomson.

Sarge

All fine performances.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 09, 2014, 02:59:11 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 09, 2014, 12:46:48 AM
Yesterday BBC Radio 3 reviewed the different versions of Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 9. Their preferred choice was Vernon Handley and the Liverpool PO on Classics for Pleasure at budget price (or part of a very inexpensive boxed set).

Lucky me, I've got that one. It also comes with the best version of the 6th that I've yet heard.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 10, 2014, 09:13:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 09, 2014, 12:46:48 AM
Yesterday BBC Radio 3 reviewed the different versions of Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 9. Their preferred choice was Vernon Handley and the Liverpool PO on Classics for Pleasure at budget price (or part of a very inexpensive boxed set). This was narrowly preferred to Sir Adrian Boult's wonderfully reflective later recording on EMI ( although the earlier Decca version has more urgency). They also liked the versions by Haitink ( good news for Daniel on this forum  :)) and the saxophones in Slatkin's version were unrivalled for their sense of 'fun' (not sure that this is what Vaughan Williams intended!) Stokowski's historic version also gained considerable praise. The programme is available on the BBC iPlayer but not sure this is available outside the UK. I also like Bryden Thomson's version on Chandos.
[asin]B0000647HR[/asin]

Can you post the link please?  I can't find it on the bbc 3 website.

EDIT: Never mind, I found it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01rzqyx
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 19, 2014, 02:03:18 PM
Hey everyone

I just bought a second-hand copy of Sir John in Love (Hickocks version) from Amazon. When it arrived I saw it didn't have a libretto booklet, then I looked at the invoice and saw this was noted in the small print.

D'oh.

Does anyhone have this libretto they could scan for me?

:-\

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: NLK1971 on February 19, 2014, 03:03:01 PM
You can download it from this webpage:
http://www.chandos.net/details06.asp?CNumber=CHAN%209928


Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 19, 2014, 02:03:18 PM
Hey everyone

I just bought a second-hand copy of Sir John in Love (Hickocks version) from Amazon. When it arrived I saw it didn't have a libretto booklet, then I looked at the invoice and saw this was noted in the small print.

D'oh.

Does anyhone have this libretto they could scan for me?

:-\
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 19, 2014, 05:54:55 PM
Thanks, who'd a thunk it, a free download?

:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 06:04:44 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 19, 2014, 05:54:55 PM
Thanks, who'd a thunk it, a free download?

:D

You can download almost all of Chandos' booklets via the recording's page on their site. Many sites are offering this now, but Chandos have been doing this as long as I've known about the label.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 25, 2014, 04:26:44 PM
I've just finished listening to the Hickox version of Sir John in Love and was very impressed. VW did a great job in turning the Merry Wives of Windsor into an opera libretto, and the added Elizabethan texts are delightful. This is one of the few operas that actually has momentum, I didn't find myself thinking, as I often do with opera, "get on with it!'

What is interesting though is that whilst most of the music is lyrical and pastoral, where there are moments of anger or despair or violence suddenly the language of the 4th Symphony appears!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 10, 2014, 01:06:14 PM
Partita for Double String Orchestra

I've been YouTubing this piece (previously unknown to me), and so far I like it. Any opinions on it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2014, 02:11:13 PM
Quote from: Velimir on March 10, 2014, 01:06:14 PM
Partita for Double String Orchestra

I've been YouTubing this piece (previously unknown to me), and so far I like it. Any opinions on it?

An excellent work. RVW was such a natural in his writing for strings that it seems like a no-brainer that this wouldn't be good. I feel the same way about his Concerto Grosso.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on March 30, 2014, 08:49:17 AM
Just finished listening to the last disc in by Haitink RVW set. 8th/9th symphonies. Simply WOW. Incredible pieces. I was completely blown away, with tears in my eyes, at the utter power of the ending to no.9.... what a farewell to the symphonic form.. So moving. 8 and 9 might have to be my favourites overall.... but then again 3-6 are just so incredible too. Hope there's not a poll for 'favourite RVW symphony' here as I wouldn't be able to pick!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 30, 2014, 09:03:39 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on March 30, 2014, 08:49:17 AM
Just finished listening to the last disc in by Haitink RVW set. 8th/9th symphonies. Simply WOW. Incredible pieces. I was completely blown away, with tears in my eyes, at the utter power of the ending to no.9.... what a farewell to the symphonic form.. So moving. 8 and 9 might have to be my favourites overall.... but then again 3-6 are just so incredible too. Hope there's not a poll for 'favourite RVW symphony' here as I wouldn't be able to pick!!

Good to hear, Daniel. RVW has long been a favorite of mine and it was high time you explored his symphonies. Symphony No. 5 has always been a special work for me, but I really enjoy all of his symphonies. Now it's time for Job!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 30, 2014, 09:16:08 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on March 30, 2014, 08:49:17 AM
Hope there's not a poll for 'favourite RVW symphony' here as I wouldn't be able to pick!!

Of course there's a poll  8)

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6037.msg143580.html#msg143580

My top three: 4, 8, 9

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 30, 2014, 09:17:55 AM
My picks: 4, 5, & 6, but I could have easily threw the 3rd in for the 4th or the 8th in for the 6th and still have been satisfied.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ken B on March 30, 2014, 09:37:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 30, 2014, 09:17:55 AM
My picks: 4, 5, & 6, but I could have easily threw the 3rd in for the 4th or the 8th in for the 6th and still have been satisfied.
4, 5, and 6 are my choices but I go back and forth on whether 5 or 4 is top. Usually 5.
Exploring RVW do not miss Flos Campi.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 30, 2014, 09:40:46 AM
Quote from: Ken B on March 30, 2014, 09:37:51 AM
4, 5, and 6 are my choices but I go back and forth on whether 5 or 4 is top. Usually 5.
Exploring RVW do not miss Flos Campi.

Yep, Flos Campi is a fine work. I've grown quite fond of the Oboe Concerto over the past year or so.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 30, 2014, 11:50:35 AM
Looks I voted just over a year ago, let's see if I still agree...

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 04, 2013, 02:08:32 PM
Time to renew an old thread.

My votes...
Symphony No. 1, A Sea Symphony
Symphony No. 3, A Pastoral Symphony
Symphony No. 9

Regarding RVW symphonies, I can honestly say that I enjoy them all. There's not really a dull one in the lot.

My personal favorite will always be the 1st, A Sea Symphony, in fact it was Sea that peaked my interest in RVW. With the exception of an over-boldy presented first movement, I find that the Symphony successfully merges words and music. I still get chills in the final movement hearing the soprano and baritone echoing "Bathe me O God in thee, mounting to thee, I and my soul to range in range of thee." Although I consider Sea to be my favorite, I don't believe it to be his greatest symphonic accomplishment

From there I chose his Pastoral Symphony. One of the most poetic symphonies I've heard. The final movement ranks high with some of those most visionary and inspired pieces. Nothing closes a symphony quite like the distant soprano.

My final vote went to his 9th, a leap of over 30 years from my previous pick of No.3. The 9th is unique, it's calm yet haunting. The rhythmically charged Scherzo filled with three saxophones is a highlight along with the brilliantly composed bookends.

There are some days I could have easily voted for No. 5, No. 6 or No. 7 (which I consider to be much fun), but 1, 3 and 9 are the ones I return to the most.

...I'm good.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: madaboutmahler on March 30, 2014, 11:53:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 30, 2014, 09:16:08 AM
Of course there's a poll  8)

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6037.msg143580.html#msg143580

My top three: 4, 8, 9

Sarge
Oh dear... :p I think it might have to be 6, 8 and 9 for me!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2014, 12:12:26 PM
The defiant and valedictory No. 9 ranks very high with me too (those harps at the end  :'(). Handley is very good with the clearest harps. No. 6 remains the greatest in my opinion. Haitink made me appreciate A Sea Symphony more than any other recording. The 1913 A London Symphony gets played a lot too. Why did he cut out the best bit just before the end?


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 30, 2014, 12:46:23 PM
I really need to revisit the 9th. I do recall enjoying very well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 30, 2014, 03:44:32 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 30, 2014, 12:46:23 PM
I really need to revisit the 9th. I do recall enjoying very well.

I am still where I always was with the 9th: puzzled by the outer movements, but greatly enjoy the quirky inner ones, especially the flugelhorn and sax contributions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 30, 2014, 05:15:10 PM
Quote from: Velimir on March 30, 2014, 03:44:32 PM
I am still where I always was with the 9th: puzzled by the outer movements, but greatly enjoy the quirky inner ones, especially the flugelhorn and sax contributions.

What is so puzzling about the outer movements?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 30, 2014, 06:29:21 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 30, 2014, 05:15:10 PM
What is so puzzling about the outer movements?

I find them kind of heavy and diffuse, hard to know where the music is going. It's a bit like trying to drive through a rainstorm at night. I don't get that feeling with any other of VW's symphonic movements.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2014, 12:02:47 AM
Quote from: Velimir on March 30, 2014, 03:44:32 PM
I am still where I always was with the 9th: puzzled by the outer movements, but greatly enjoy the quirky inner ones, especially the flugelhorn and sax contributions.

That's very interesting as it is the two outer movements which I prefer to the inner ones ( as with Mahler's 9th Symphony).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 31, 2014, 12:27:34 PM
I love all the VW symphonies, although there are some I don't listen to all that often.

My absolute favourites are 5 and 9, but with all of them when I listen to them again, as not with all other composers' works, I am always impressed with how good they are. I think we underestimate VW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2014, 11:24:52 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 31, 2014, 12:27:34 PM
I love all the VW symphonies, although there are some I don't listen to all that often.

My absolute favourites are 5 and 9, but with all of them when I listen to them again, as not with all other composers' works, I am always impressed with how good they are. I think we underestimate VW.

I agree. Naxos put 5 and 9 together - a great CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 01, 2014, 05:06:34 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 31, 2014, 11:24:52 PM
I agree. Naxos put 5 and 9 together - a great CD.

I've said it before:  That Kees Bakels/Bournemouth CD opened my ears to the value of the symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 02, 2014, 01:25:15 AM
I see that Naxos is promising for May 2014 a disk containing, amongst other works, the early Piano Quintet and a Quintet for Clarinet, Horn and Piano Trio.

;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2014, 09:06:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 01, 2014, 05:06:34 AM
I've said it before:  That Kees Bakels/Bournemouth CD opened my ears to the value of the symphonies.

I must hear this recording, Karl. I own the Naxos set of symphonies, but it remains unopened. Should I indulge or leave it sealed?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 05, 2014, 01:58:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 06, 2014, 09:06:02 AM
I must hear this recording, Karl. I own the Naxos set of symphonies, but it remains unopened. Should I indulge or leave it sealed?

Oh, I hadn't meant to leave your question unanswered.  Whenever your prog phase has run its course, open this right up!

About to spend some good Veranda time, myself, this week.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 05, 2014, 08:01:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 05, 2014, 01:58:57 AM
Oh, I hadn't meant to leave your question unanswered.  Whenever your prog phase has run its course, open this right up!

About to spend some good Veranda time, myself, this week.

No worries. Cool, thanks for the feedback. 8) I definitely will now. I don't know why I even left it sealed to be honest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2014, 01:43:46 PM
Extraordinary looking release:
[asin]B00JU5DGY8[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 28, 2014, 01:48:30 PM
Wow. Not really a surprise, though - Rozhdestvensky has long had a big interest in English music, and I've seen him rank VW among the greatest 20th century symphonists.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2014, 02:14:10 PM
Quote from: Velimir on May 28, 2014, 01:48:30 PM
Wow. Not really a surprise, though - Rozhdestvensky has long had a big interest in English music, and I've seen him rank VW among the greatest 20th century symphonists.

Yes, he conducts all the symphonies. I already have a very fine recording by him of Symphony No. 5 on the long-gone BBC Radio Classics label and am aware of a recording of A Sea Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 29, 2014, 05:35:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 28, 2014, 01:43:46 PM
Extraordinary looking release:
[asin]B00JU5DGY8[/asin]

It's also "extraordinary looking" in the fact that they couldn't spell his name correctly on the cover. This is actually a pet peeve of mine - Russians, instead of looking up how a foreign name is actually spelled in its own alphabet, often back-transliterate it any old way, so the result tends to look ridiculous. You'd think for a release like this, they'd actually try to get it right. At least they didn't call him "Voan-Uilyams."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 29, 2014, 05:38:38 AM
Hah! I cannot believe my eye missed that!  Here at GMG, I mean . . . I wasn't responsible for the typography . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2014, 06:14:17 AM
Has anyone seen the box offered anywhere? (I mean available now.) Most of the Amazons I've checked don't have it yet although Amazon DE (http://www.amazon.de/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Live/dp/B00KJXRS1C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1401372628&sr=8-1&keywords=B00KJXRS1C) is offering it as an mp3 download. Too expensive though. I'm curious about Rozh's Fourth. The slowest ever?

Edit: pre-ordered from Amazon FR, only 31 Euro. Available in two weeks.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 29, 2014, 09:10:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2014, 06:14:17 AM
Has anyone seen the box offered anywhere? (I mean available now.) Most of the Amazons I've checked don't have it yet although Amazon DE (http://www.amazon.de/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Live/dp/B00KJXRS1C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1401372628&sr=8-1&keywords=B00KJXRS1C) is offering it as an mp3 download. Too expensive though. I'm curious about Rozh's Fourth. The slowest ever?

Edit: pre-ordered from Amazon FR, only 31 Euro. Available in two weeks.

Sarge

I have ordered it on Amazon UK. Available early June.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 29, 2014, 09:11:31 AM
Quote from: Velimir on May 29, 2014, 05:35:32 AM
It's also "extraordinary looking" in the fact that they couldn't spell his name correctly on the cover. This is actually a pet peeve of mine - Russians, instead of looking up how a foreign name is actually spelled in its own alphabet, often back-transliterate it any old way, so the result tends to look ridiculous. You'd think for a release like this, they'd actually try to get it right. At least they didn't call him "Voan-Uilyams."

Vaughan Williams would have been cross as he hated that pronunciation of his name.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on May 29, 2014, 09:25:37 AM
Quote from: Velimir on May 29, 2014, 05:35:32 AM
It's also "extraordinary looking" in the fact that they couldn't spell his name correctly on the cover. This is actually a pet peeve of mine - Russians, instead of looking up how a foreign name is actually spelled in its own alphabet, often back-transliterate it any old way, so the result tends to look ridiculous. You'd think for a release like this, they'd actually try to get it right. At least they didn't call him "Voan-Uilyams."

The French label Mirare recently released a disc of American music entitled "Road 66" featuring the Gershwin song "I Love Porgy" because they translated the titles into French and then back into English.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 29, 2014, 05:08:51 PM
Typos aside, that Rozhdestvensky set looks interesting. Were individual issues released prior to this set? Anyone know? I just find it strange that Rozhdestvensky would tackle RVW. Well, I suppose it's no stranger than Paavo Berglund conducting the 4th and 6th, which were excellent of course.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 29, 2014, 11:47:41 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 29, 2014, 05:08:51 PM
Typos aside, that Rozhdestvensky set looks interesting. Were individual issues released prior to this set? Anyone know? I just find it strange that Rozhdestvensky would tackle RVW. Well, I suppose it's no stranger than Paavo Berglund conducting the 4th and 6th, which were excellent of course.

There was a version of Symphony 5 and Sancta Civitas on BBC Radio Classics years ago with Rozhdestvensky conducting but it is almost certainly a different recording (with the BBC SO). I was aware of a CD of A Sea Symphony on Melodiya a while back but don't have it. Svetlanov issued a recording of Elgar's Second Symphony with the USSR Symphony Orchestra years ago - it was a very good if idiosyncratic version.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2014, 02:39:49 AM
Quote from: Velimir on May 29, 2014, 05:35:32 AM
It's also "extraordinary looking" in the fact that they couldn't spell his name correctly on the cover. This is actually a pet peeve of mine - Russians, instead of looking up how a foreign name is actually spelled in its own alphabet, often back-transliterate it any old way, so the result tends to look ridiculous. You'd think for a release like this, they'd actually try to get it right. At least they didn't call him "Voan-Uilyams."

Interestingly my boxed set arrived with the composer's first name spelt correctly on the box. Fascinating to hear the soviet view of Vaughan Williams (1988/89 recordings). Just listened to A Sea Symphony, complete with Russian accents (more noticeable in the chorus than the soloists). A wonderfully gripping performance. Sound is obviously not as good as super modern versions but I would not be without this Melodiya release. Can't wait to hear the rest of the set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on June 07, 2014, 04:11:47 AM
Quote from: Velimir on May 29, 2014, 05:35:32 AM
It's also "extraordinary looking" in the fact that they couldn't spell his name correctly on the cover. This is actually a pet peeve of mine - Russians, instead of looking up how a foreign name is actually spelled in its own alphabet, often back-transliterate it any old way, so the result tends to look ridiculous. You'd think for a release like this, they'd actually try to get it right. At least they didn't call him "Voan-Uilyams."
And note how Vaughan looks like it's Rafe's second given name, and not a part of his surname..
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2014, 05:04:20 AM
Quote from: North Star on June 07, 2014, 04:11:47 AM
And note how Vaughan looks like it's Rafe's second given name, and not a part of his surname..

Yes, you are right!

Am on to No 4, in chronological sequence. They all seem to be live performances. No 4 much slower than usual but very powerful and brooding. Very lyrical first movement.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 07, 2014, 05:10:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 07, 2014, 05:04:20 AM
Yes, you are right!

Am on to No 4, in chronological sequence. They all seem to be live performances. No 4 much slower than usual ...

That's what I was hoping for. Can't wait to hear it. Mine hasn't been dispatched yet.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2014, 05:43:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 07, 2014, 05:10:54 AM
That's what I was hoping for. Can't wait to hear it. Mine hasn't been dispatched yet.

Sarge

You'll love the set Sarge! On to No 5 now, which Is the only one I have heard Rozhdestvensky conduct before on an old BBC Radio Classics CD with a fine version of 'Sancta Civitas'. That was with the BBCSO and worth looking out for. Interesting to hear the Russian audiences reactions to the work. They seem to like No 2 very much and, unsurprisingly didn't realise when No 4 had ended. Suddenly having a whole box of unfamiliar performances is very exciting, reminding me of the Chandos release of Handley's Bax cycle, none of which had appeared before. For me this is the most exciting VW release since Hickox's 1913 version of A London Symphony. The booklet notes are good too with, unsurprising, references to Shostakovich in relation to symphonies 4 and 6, which I can't wait to hear and is next on my list.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 11, 2014, 12:56:50 PM
Review of Melodiya Box set of complete Vaughan Williams symphonies:
My goodness, I never thought that I would live to see this. True, Rozhdestvensky recorded the Fifth Symphony and Sancta Civitas on an old, long gone BBC Radio Classics CD, but that very fine performance was with the BBC SO. What we have here is a complete set of the symphonies recorded at live concerts at the end of the soviet era (1988-89). The audience appear to enjoy the works and someone always seems to shout out their approval amidst the applause (I wonder if it is the same person?) This is for me the most exciting Vaughan Williams release since the Hickox recording of the 1913 version of 'A London Symphony'. It is rather like the appearance of the Vernon Handley cycle of the Bax symphonies on Chandos when none had been previously available, although Rozhdestvensky's Melodiya 'A Sea Symphony' had been around before. I enjoyed all the performances, which have a soviet accent (literally at the opening of Symphony No.1) but are completely idiomatic, deeply felt and performed with a great sense of urgency - I enjoyed them all and, for the first time ever, listened to the entire cycle in chronological sequence. As they are live performances not everything goes well and at the very opening of No 6 it sounds like the orchestra are not quite starting at the same time, but otherwise this is a very fine performance, although a bit unsettling to hear the Epilogue sounding louder as it progresses. I agree with the booklet note writer that No. 6 is the greatest of all the cycle as it combines the violence of No. 4 with the spiritual qualities of No. 5 to create a most disturbing synthesis. I thought that the greatest performance of all was No. 7 'Sinfonia Antartica' notwithstanding an odd 'Dr Phibes' moment during an organ solo. The saxophones in symphonies 6 and 9 are suitably 'jazzy'. By the way, on the box I received the composer's first name is spelt correctly, although it is clear that they thought that 'Vaughan' was his middle name. Don't miss this. It could be deleted at any time and then only available at an absurd price. I would not be without a cycle by Boult but this is not to be missed - an extraordinary release.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 11, 2014, 09:38:05 PM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on June 11, 2014, 01:09:48 PM
Thank you so much for posting this.  I clocked this set when it was released a short while back and instantly put it on several wishlists, but hadn't got around to pushing the button on it.  I will rectify that immediately.  What you describe is exactly what I was hoping it would be.

Thank you! Am sure you'll enjoy it. Look out for that soviet brass. Performances are very idiomatic.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2014, 06:33:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 11, 2014, 12:56:50 PM
. . . I enjoyed all the performances, which have a soviet accent (literally at the opening of Symphony No.1)

Surely, dear fellow, that is literally a Russian accent?  ;) 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2014, 06:36:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 11, 2014, 09:38:05 PM
Look out for that soviet brass.

Аминъ  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 12, 2014, 11:02:20 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2014, 06:33:43 AM
Surely, dear fellow, that is literally a Russian accent?  ;) 8)

No, definitely soviet  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2014, 11:03:53 AM
Hah!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 12, 2014, 11:06:43 AM
Hehe  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2014, 06:06:03 AM
Musicweb review of Melodiya Box:
Ralph VAUGHAN WILLIAMS (1872-1958)
Symphonies Nos. 1-9
The State Symphony Orchestra of the USSR Ministry of Culture/Gennady Rozhdestvensky
rec. live, Grand Hall of the Leningrad Philharmonic Society, 1988-89
Track-Listing at the end of this review
No texts included
MELODIYA MELCD1002170 [6 CDs: 366:56]



This must count as one of the more surprising issues to have come my way – though a very welcome surprise. I know that some American conductors have followed the lead of André Previn in performing and recording the Vaughan Williams symphonies. There have also been recorded cycles by two Dutch conductors: one, though not quite complete, by Kees Bakels – which I've not heard – and the other, a very fine one, by Bernard Haitink (review). However, I never expected to hear Russian forces performing all nine works. During his all-too brief tenure at the BBC Symphony Orchestra (1978-81) Gennady Rozhdestvensky performed quite a lot of British music and our editor, Rob Barnett has reminded me that the long-defunct Carlton BBC Radio Classics label issued performances by him of the Fifth Symphony and Sancta Civitas (IMP9125, 1995). Yet it's a delight to see that he continued to investigate and perform British music after his BBC appointment came to an end. Here we have the complete Vaughan Williams symphonies played under his direction in three series of broadcast concerts in 1988 and 1989. The orchestra is the State Symphony Orchestra of the USSR Ministry of Culture of which Rozhdestvensky was chief conductor between 1983 and 1991.
 
In theory it might have been possible to fit the symphonies onto perhaps five discs. However, Rozhdestvensky performed the cycle in chronological order and Melodiya has preserved that order, even at the cost of a couple of discs with relatively short playing time. I think that's a defensible decision, especially as the set is offered at a moderate price.
 
Sea Symphony must have presented challenges to the singers for Walt Whitman's high-flown imagery is not always easy to comprehend, even for Anglophones. The choir's English is heavily accented and a good deal of the pronunciation is idiosyncratic. Nonetheless they make a pretty good job of RVW's chorus parts, not least in the virtuoso third movement, 'The Waves'. There are a good number of occasion when the inner chorus detail is muddy and/or the choir gets swamped by the orchestra but I don't think the engineers have balanced the choir fairly against the orchestra. What does impress me is the sheer fervour of the singing. One wonders how much the choir understood of what they were singing – I'm not being unkind here; Whitman's flowery rhetoric is often difficult to grasp – but they sing with tremendous commitment. Ideally, I'd have liked more quiet singing from them at times – the last few pages are insufficiently hushed and the start of the vast finale lacks mystery. However, the choir's enthusiasm is infectious.
 
Unfortunately the Achilles heel of this performance is the contribution of the soloists. For a start, their English pronunciation, never secure or convincing, is often risible and though I started off with an open mind – I hope – I'd grown weary of the mangled words before the end of the first movement. I can understand why the pronunciation of the chorus might not have been accurate but professional soloists such as these should surely have sought the services of a decent language coach. Even though I was following in the vocal score often I had considerable difficulty in discerning what they were singing. More than that, their voices aren't really suited to the music - Tatiana Smolyakova in particular – and I fear their singing gave me little pleasure. The orchestral playing is vivid and committed, though there are some untidy passages and the internal balance within the orchestra is somewhat wayward at times. As we shall see in a minute, matters were infinitely better a few nights later for the next performance in the series and, so far as the internal balance is concerned, I wonder if the engineers had problems dealing with RVW's large and disparate forces. Gennady Rozhdestvensky conducts impressively. There were just one or two occasions when I was uncomfortable with his speeds – the Largamente section in the third movement ('Where the great vessel sailing') is far too slow, for example - but overall I was convinced by his pacing of the score. I was even more convinced by the fact that he seems attuned to the spirit of the music and I don't think it's any accident that the performance is so red-blooded and vital. If only he had engaged Anglophone soloists.
 
A London Symphony is a conspicuous success. In the first movement Rozhdestvensky achieves good atmosphere in the Lento introduction and then there's plenty of drive and spirit in the allegro. There's also sensitivity in the quieter episodes. The orchestra's dynamics are good and, with better recorded sound, there's a much more satisfactory internal balance than was sometimes the case in Sea Symphony. The slow movement is very well done indeed with some excellent solo work at various points. The performance is strong on atmosphere and, overall, is memorable. There's urgency in the scherzo, much of which is lithe and light-footed. In the finale, after an impassioned opening the subsequent march is, perhaps, just a little brisk but not worryingly so. Rozhdestvensky presses forward urgently – just a touch too urgently for my taste – towards the series of towering climaxes but overall he's very convincing and the Epilogue is most sensitively played. As I said, this performance is a conspicuous success and it shows Rozhdestvensky and his orchestra in a very favourable light.
 
The gentle modal radiance of the first movement of the 'Pastoral' Symphony is well realised though for me Previn and the LSO remain unsurpassed here (review) - but it must be remembered that theirs is a recording made under studio conditions. The Russian orchestra offers much sensitive playing and Rozhdestvensky conducts very sympathetically. A series of excellent wind solos stand out in a very good all-round performance. There's fine feeling evident in the slow movement where the melancholy in the music is well conveyed. In the scherzo the louder passages are a bit on the heavy side but by way of compensation there are also several passages that are delivered with delicacy – not least the flute and harp episode which is first heard a couple of minutes in. The turbulence and emotion of the finale are successfully conveyed though the orchestra is a bit too closely balanced – or too loud – at times. I prefer a soprano with a lighter timbre than what is offered by Elena Dof-Donskaya but she sings well enough. It's a shame the applause wasn't withheld for a few more seconds but overall this is a successful performance.
 
Rozhdestvensky performed the great central trilogy of symphonies at his next series of concerts, starting with the Fourth. This is a bit of a disappointment. The main tempo for the first movement is too slow: the music is weighty and powerful in Rozhdestvensky's hands but there's insufficient forward momentum. I'm sure this is a difficult movement to pace but I don't think Rozhdestvensky gets it right. His performance is too deliberate and, for me, never really achieves lift-off. The second movement, however, is impressive and passionate while there's a good deal of vitality in the fiery scherzo. The finale, like the first movement, is just a bit on the steady side. There's plenty of conviction and weight in the performance but it lacks a crucial bit of animation. Matters improve in the second half - after the quiet, reflective string passage – and hereabouts Rozhdestvensky imparts real drive. However, I've heard several better performances of this symphony and in particular Rozhdestvensky can't hold a candle to the composer's own white-hot reading from 1937 (review).
 
I'm much happier with Rozhdestvensky in the serene Fifth. The first movement is well shaped and the Russians play it with no little sensitivity. I feel that Rozhdestvensky gets the music just right and the only caveat is that the sound of the brass a bit full-on at climaxes. There's plenty of light and shade in the second movement while the radiant Romanza yields up its poetry most pleasingly. The trumpets are a bit bright-toned at climaxes – or, at least, brighter that listeners in the West may be used to – but overall it's wonderful to hear this rapt, quintessential RVW music played with such sincerity and sensitivity by the Russian orchestra. There's much to admire in the finale as well though, once again, if the performance has a flaw it lies in the brass tone at climaxes, which is rather too strong and bright. Previn and the LSO – and others – have achieved even more subtle and sensitive results in the studio but this live performance is very good indeed, even if one or two slight fluffs betray that it is live. I particularly liked the affectionately expansive way that Rozhdestvensky conducts the closing pages.
 
Along with the Fourth, the Sixth Symphony is arguably the most 'exportable' of RVW's symphonies. There's rather overblown rhetoric in the way the opening gesture is delivered in this performance but once that's behind us Rozhdestvensky and his team evidence great determination and vigour. The music in compound time is sprightly indeed – I like that – and the Big Tune at the end is relished but not milked. The second movement is well done with the insistent rhythmic figure well delineated. There's excellent dynamic contrast at times and RVW's climaxes have menacing power. In the quiet string paragraphs, underpinned by quietly threatening timpani and trumpets, followed by the eruptive main climax I wondered if the orchestra sensed a kinship with the music of their illustrious compatriot, Shostakovich. The scherzo is taut and urgent and the saxophone contributions are suitably oily. RVW's garish, menacing music and scoring are strongly projected. The chill finale is pretty well controlled. This remarkable music is strange and other-worldly. It's a huge challenge for a live performance to achieve the same hushed results that can be obtained by the best orchestras and conductors under studio conditions. This performance doesn't quite meet that standard but it's pretty good. As a whole this is a fine performance of one of the composer's greatest achievements and one of the finest of all English symphonies.
 
In Sinfonia Antartica there's craggy grandeur in the music right from the start and as the first movement unfolds the bleak, forbidding and endless Antarctic landscape is tellingly evoked. In the loud stretches of music the forthright nature of the Russian brass is something of an advantage on this occasion. We hear the same soprano, Elena Dof-Donskaya, that Rozhdestvensky used in the 'Pastoral' Symphony and her voice seems more suited to this role though I would have preferred both the soloist and, especially, the ladies' chorus to be rather more distanced. The tinkling percussion is a bit too closely balanced in the Scherzo but the penguins are suitably gawky. The 'Landscape' movement comes off very well indeed: there's chilly apprehension at the start and later the lowering menace as the glacier comes into view is all too apparent. The climax has impressive power though, of course, there isn't the sonic amplitude of Haitink's 1997 EMI studio recording, which still sounds stunning. Rozhdestvensky's account of the fifth movement has all the necessary drama, power and atmosphere.
 
The Eighth Symphony is well done also. The strings and woodwind make very good contributions to the first movement. The Scherzo is crisp and frisky, even if the brass are again a bit powerful. The strings give an impressive display in the Cavatina, their playing very responsive. The finale is balanced bit too close for comfort but the performance itself is successful and one senses that the Russian players are enjoying this extrovert music. The fact that I've written less about this symphony than the others shouldn't be taken as an implicit criticism of the performance: I never feel there's an awful lot to say about this symphony.
 
The Ninth is a remarkable creation. I wouldn't dissent from those who say that, thematically, it revisits old ground. After all, there's a prominent quotation from the early tone poem, The Solent, which pre-dates A Sea Symphony and which RVW withdrew; indeed, the same theme that's quoted in the Ninth had been put into A Sea Symphony. What's remarkable about RVW's last symphony is the sheer imagination of the sonorities and the orchestral invention: he might have been revisiting some old thematic ideas but he was still keen to experiment, as shown above all by the deployment of a flugelhorn and trio of saxophones. Rozhdestvensky's reading of the first movement is powerful, conveying RVW's mysterious, majestic vision very well. I may be doing them an injustice but I have the impression that the intonation of the saxophones isn't always impeccable. Worthy of mention is the eloquent solo violinist towards the end. In the Andante the composer's fascinating colours and textures are well realised though the brass section, at least as recorded, is too strong at times. The scherzo has lots of grotesque swagger to it and the saxophones are well to the fore, their tone husky. The strings excel at the start of the finale. The reading of this movement is highly atmospheric and with no little power, though it's a bit rough-hewn at times. The closing climax is mighty, interspersed with those amazing washes of sound from harps and saxophones. As the applause starts it's great to hear RVW's music being cheered by the audience.
 
It's time to sum up. I must confess that I approached this set not just with curiosity but also with some doubts. However, I've been won over. It's true that the performances have some rough edges - not least the over-prominence at times of the brass – but these are live performances so one can't necessarily expect the sophistication of studio conditions. Furthermore, British orchestras, which are the ones that have mostly recorded these works, are infinitely more familiar with these scores than the Russian players will have been. In fact, Rozhdestvensky's orchestra gives a pretty good account of itself throughout. In addition, the maestro himself seems thoroughly at home in these scores, at least some of which he possibly hadn't previously conducted very often. Only in the Fourth do I feel that he gets things wrong – and his choice of soloists in A Sea Symphony is regrettable. To set against those misjudgements, there's great commitment and no little finesse in these performances.
 
The recorded sound can't compete with the best studio performances but it's perfectly acceptable. The audiences are unobtrusive, apart from a few isolated coughs. There's applause after each performance but it's not the instant-ovation type of response. Actually, it's quite good to have a modicum of applause retained because you can tell that these symphonies were warmly received, which is heartening. That, and the quality of the performances and interpretations, should nail the canard that RVW's music doesn't 'travel'. Interestingly, in the booklet only Sea Symphony is noted as the first performance in Leningrad. That implies that all the others had been played in the city before but, in all honesty, I can't imagine that any of these works had been played much in Russia before then other than by visiting orchestras. One wonders how often any of them have been heard there since these performances.
 
Clearly this set isn't going to be a first choice but it's a cycle that lovers of Vaughan Williams – and all admirers of Gennady Rozhdestvensky – should try to hear. I'm delighted to have heard it and even more delighted that these splendid symphonies were so effectively championed by Russian musicians in their own country.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2014, 06:17:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 13, 2014, 06:06:03 AMOnly in the Fourth do I feel that he gets things wrong

Which is why I will probably love it  8)

Thanks for posting this, Jeffrey.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2014, 06:27:02 AM
Very nice review, thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2014, 06:33:42 AM
Sarge and Karl,

My pleasure.

Another reviewer said that the USSR Ministry of Culture SO 'had a ball' with symphonies 4 and 7, which I am inclined to agree with.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 24, 2014, 03:06:03 PM
Haitink's VW: my first steps

Critics have mixed reactions to Haitink's VW cycle, but it's generally liked on this forum. That, and Haitink is probably my favorite all-around currently active conductor. So I acquired the disc with VW symphonies 3 & 4.

A big thumbs up to this release. The sound is deep, dark and spacious, the playing is excellent, and Haitink's conception is totally convincing to me.

The 3rd "Pastoral" sounds wonderfully deep and seductive, like walking into a nature painting by Caspar David Friedrich and getting stuck there for the night.

Based on what I read, I expected the 4th Symphony to be rather restrained and cool, but that's not the case. Mostly it's smoking hot, with high energy levels, but also a good sense of balance. The finale does not sizzle quite as much as my other favorites (Berglund and Bernstein), but that's a minor complaint.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 25, 2014, 02:58:11 AM
Glad you dig it! This was my first listen to the Haitink/RVW set, too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 25, 2014, 03:37:42 AM
Quote from: Velimir on July 24, 2014, 03:06:03 PM
Haitink's VW: my first steps

Critics have mixed reactions to Haitink's VW cycle, but it's generally liked on this forum. That, and Haitink is probably my favorite all-around currently active conductor. So I acquired the disc with VW symphonies 3 & 4.

A big thumbs up to this release. The sound is deep, dark and spacious, the playing is excellent, and Haitink's conception is totally convincing to me.

The 3rd "Pastoral" sounds wonderfully deep and seductive, like walking into a nature painting by Caspar David Friedrich and getting stuck there for the night.

Based on what I read, I expected the 4th Symphony to be rather restrained and cool, but that's not the case. Mostly it's smoking hot, with high energy levels, but also a good sense of balance. The finale does not sizzle quite as much as my other favorites (Berglund and Bernstein), but that's a minor complaint.

I like the Caspar David Friedrich comment (one of my favourite painters). Most people might suggest Corot or Constable as either reflecting the composer's wartime experiences in France or the English landscape, so your German analogy gives VW a more international resonance, which I suspect Haitink wanted.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 25, 2014, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 25, 2014, 03:37:42 AM
I like the Caspar David Friedrich comment (one of my favourite painters).

Mine too.

Quoteyour German analogy gives VW a more international resonance, which I suspect Haitink wanted.

Perhaps. As I said, I haven't heard other installments in this set, but I think that might be his intention based on what I've read. One reviewer said his account of the 5th Symphony sounded like Bruckner at times, which would support this.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 26, 2014, 02:44:56 AM
Quote from: Velimir on July 25, 2014, 02:44:40 PM
Mine too.

Perhaps. As I said, I haven't heard other installments in this set, but I think that might be his intention based on what I've read. One reviewer said his account of the 5th Symphony sounded like Bruckner at times, which would support this.

In that sense I find Haitink much more successful than Sir Roger Norrington who, in his oddly misconceived, attempt to make Vaughan Williams more 'international' just made the music sound un-idiomatic. I'm not surprised that his cycle of the symphonies was never completed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 26, 2014, 02:47:12 AM
Quote from: Velimir on July 25, 2014, 02:44:40 PM
Mine too.

Perhaps. As I said, I haven't heard other installments in this set, but I think that might be his intention based on what I've read. One reviewer said his account of the 5th Symphony sounded like Bruckner at times, which would support this.

PS on the Bruckner theme have you noticed a section just before the climax of the last movement of Bruckner's 9th Symphony which sounds like the Tallis Fantasia!?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 26, 2014, 08:33:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 26, 2014, 02:47:12 AM
PS on the Bruckner theme have you noticed a section just before the climax of the last movement of Bruckner's 9th Symphony which sounds like the Tallis Fantasia!?

I think I know the bit you mean - the sudden appearance of the very high strings before the build-up to the climax begins. Also, the swirling climaxes in the first section of the 8th Symphony Adagio (when the harps come in) remind me of the Tallis Fantasia.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 26, 2014, 11:02:56 AM
Quote from: Velimir on July 26, 2014, 08:33:36 AM
I think I know the bit you mean - the sudden appearance of the very high strings before the build-up to the climax begins. Also, the swirling climaxes in the first section of the 8th Symphony Adagio (when the harps come in) remind me of the Tallis Fantasia.

Yes, that's the bit in the Ninth Symphony - always reminds me of the Vaughan Williams.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 27, 2014, 11:50:15 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 26, 2014, 02:47:12 AM
PS on the Bruckner theme have you noticed a section just before the climax of the last movement of Bruckner's 9th Symphony which sounds like the Tallis Fantasia!?

I'm not finding this (or, I'm just hearing it differently).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2014, 12:26:19 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 27, 2014, 11:50:15 AM
I'm not finding this (or, I'm just hearing it differently).
Karl on the Bruno Walter recording it is from 15 minutes into the last movement and lasts for about one minute, however the pre-echoes of Tallis Fantasia are IMHO more evident in some recordings than other, especially if the acoustic has more of a cathedral-like ambiance to it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 11, 2014, 01:05:32 AM
I listened to the Bournemouth SO recording of A Sea Symphony under Paul Daniel on Naxos today. I don't think I've listened to the work for 20 years and I was just blown away by how good it is, it just sweeps you along and even in the half an hour long finale there isn't a dull moment. The closing pages are a real spine-tingler.

This is particularly good-sounding recording, with fine soloists, and a harp that makes suitable aquatic noises at various points.

Once again, I say we underestimate Vaughan Williams.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 11, 2014, 01:49:36 AM
That's good to know (that the Naxos is a good presentation of the piece, I mean). The first recording I heard of A Sea Symphony was (I believe) the Haitink, and I was hooked right away;  magnificent, and admirably assured, piece!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 11, 2014, 02:51:44 AM
In fact there are two harps in the score....

:)
Title: Re: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 11, 2014, 03:05:15 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 11, 2014, 02:51:44 AM
In fact there are two harps in the score....

:)

Well, but perhaps only one of them makes aquatic noises? . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on August 12, 2014, 09:53:42 AM
Spano - the singers or most noticeably the choir, have an American accent, which when you think about it is authentic - but still a bit weird at first hearing.  It's also a very speedy performance - I didn't expect to like it, compared with Haitink - but I do.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on August 12, 2014, 11:51:11 AM
And now, it's been an all Vaughan Williams afternoon!  :)

This, courtesy of Monkey Greg - hat tip!  Tremendous performance of the Sinfonia Antartica, and my first listen to the truly splendid Five Variants of 'Dives and Lazarus'!

Quick March - Sea Songs
Five Variants of "Dives and Lazarus"
*Sinfonia Antartica (Symphony No. 7)


Linda Hohenfeld, soprano

Slatkin, conducting
Philharmonia Orchestra

BMG Classics

[asin]B000003F9Q[/asin]

Now listening to some Boult RVW:

Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
Symphony No. 2 (A London Symphony)


Sir Adrian Boult, conducting
London Philharmonic Orchestra

EMI Classics

[asin]B00004YA0V[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on August 12, 2014, 01:38:34 PM
I listened to the Antartica today as well - Andrew Davis - sounds quite 'modern' - more VW8 than VW6, and more Bartok and Stravinsky too - and certainly a lot of pointillistic detail I'd not noticed before in the recordings by Haitink and Boult. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 12, 2014, 03:54:25 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 12, 2014, 09:53:42 AM
Spano - the singers or most noticeably the choir, have an American accent, which when you think about it is authentic - but still a bit weird at first hearing. 

No they don't, they're singing in old-fashioned Received Pronunciation (as heard on the BBC and in films until the 1980s). More recently a cocknified "saa-feastn" accent has become more normal, with extravagant use of glottal stops. The fact they don't sound like Jamie Oliver doesn't mean they have American accents!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on August 23, 2014, 06:39:24 AM
A Happy Vaughan Williams mornin' to ya all!  :)


*A Pastoral Symphony (Symphony No. 3)
Symphony No. 5 in D major
Symphony No. 8 in D minor
Symphony No. 9 in E minor


Sir Adrian Boult, conducting
London Philharmonic Orchestra
*New Philharmonia Orchestra
*Margaret Price, soprano

EMI Classics

[asin]B00004YA0V[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 23, 2014, 06:40:07 AM
What a great way to spend a Saturday!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on August 23, 2014, 06:40:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 23, 2014, 06:40:07 AM
What a great way to spend a Saturday!

Yes, none too shabby way at all!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: snyprrr on August 23, 2014, 07:02:24 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 23, 2014, 06:39:24 AM
A Happy Vaughan Williams mornin' to ya all!  :)


*A Pastoral Symphony (Symphony No. 3)
Symphony No. 5 in D major
Symphony No. 8 in D minor
Symphony No. 9 in E minor


Sir Adrian Boult, conducting
London Philharmonic Orchestra
*New Philharmonia Orchestra
*Margaret Price, soprano

EMI Classics

[asin]B00004YA0V[/asin]

I don't know the Symphonies too well. I remember hearing them Back in the Day, but seem to have thought them 'noisy'. Of course I love No.5 (Menuhim at the moment), but, where do I go from there? I don't think he has one as streamlined as 5 (it's like his DSCH 5), but I totally can't keep them straight. I keep thinking a singer's going to pop up at any moment!

'Pastoral', 'London', 'Sea', 'Antarctic',... I just can't keep them straight...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2014, 07:07:40 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 23, 2014, 07:02:24 AM
I don't know the Symphonies too well. I remember hearing them Back in the Day, but seem to have thought them 'noisy'. Of course I love No.5 (Menuhim at the moment), but, where do I go from there? I don't think he has one as streamlined as 5 (it's like his DSCH 5), but I totally can't keep them straight. I keep thinking a singer's going to pop up at any moment!

'Pastoral', 'London', 'Sea', 'Antarctic',... I just can't keep them straight...

It's easy: the London Symphony is about London; the Antartica is about the southern-most continent.; the Sea is about salt water; and the Pastoral is about cowpats. Simple  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on August 23, 2014, 07:21:13 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2014, 07:07:40 AM
It's easy: the London Symphony is about London; the Antartica is about the southern-most continent.; the Sea is about salt water; and the Pastoral is about cowpats. Simple  8)

Sarge

:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on August 23, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2014, 07:07:40 AM
It's easy: the London Symphony is about London; the Antartica is about the southern-most continent.; the Sea is about salt water; and the Pastoral is about cowpats. Simple  8)

Sarge

I concur, Sarge.  This is the most pastural work, of any work of any composer with the nickname, Pastoral.  :)

I think RVW could have very naturally mixed in some cowbells in this great symphony!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 23, 2014, 08:21:46 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 23, 2014, 07:02:24 AM
Of course I love No.5 (Menuhim at the moment), but, where do I go from there? I don't think he has one as streamlined as 5 (it's like his DSCH 5), but I totally can't keep them straight. I keep thinking a singer's going to pop up at any moment!

'Pastoral', 'London', 'Sea', 'Antarctic',... I just can't keep them straight...

Go for the ones without nicknames first.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 24, 2014, 12:47:39 AM
A Pastoral Symphony would probably appeal if you like No 5. The writer Michael Kennedy considers it to be his greatest symphony. It is a kind of Requiem for his friends killed in the First World War in which VW (over aged for active service) served as a medical orderly in France. Apparently it was influenced by the French landscape rather than the English one. It received an excellent performance at the Proms in London last week which I heard on the radio.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 24, 2014, 07:00:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 24, 2014, 12:47:39 AM
A Pastoral Symphony would probably appeal if you like No 5. The writer Michael Kennedy considers it to be his greatest symphony. It is a kind of Requiem for his friends killed in the First World War in which VW (over aged for active service) served as a medical orderly in France. Apparently it was influenced by the French landscape rather than the English one. It received an excellent performance at the Proms in London last week which I heard on the radio.

Cool!  I should dearly like to hear our Boston band perform this one live.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 24, 2014, 11:25:01 AM
My local band did it ten years ago - but I missed the occasion and only learnt about it recently. Norrington conducting the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra in a remarkably 'different' interpretion, that works very well, I think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v228NtwOvTI
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 24, 2014, 03:49:07 PM
Quote from: Christo on August 24, 2014, 11:25:01 AM
My local band did it ten years ago - but I missed the occasion and only learnt about it recently. Norrington conducting the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra in a remarkably 'different' interpretion, that works very well, I think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v228NtwOvTI

I listened to about 20 minutes of this awhile ago and didn't enjoy what Norrington was doing with the music and the RCO, while obviously a fine orchestra, seem disinterested in what's going on.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 25, 2014, 09:05:51 AM
The Prom performance (of A Pastoral Symphony) interestingly used a tenor rather than a soprano in the last movement, maybe deliberately in view of the centenary of the First World War. Vaughan Williams apparently was happy for a tenor to be used for the wordless vocal section in the last movement. I found it all very moving and that was listening in on the car radio!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: snyprrr on August 25, 2014, 09:33:55 AM
I was looking over some RVW Reviews. Aye aye, the Reviewers here are 10X more anal than even on the DSCH listings. They themselves may turn me off of RVW, gaaaaaah!!

1) I can't me handle any wind machines. (suuurely technology can help here?)

2) Handley, Hickox, Thomson, Boult, Previn, Haitink, Norrington... can't keep 'em straight.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2014, 07:59:46 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 25, 2014, 09:33:55 AM
I was looking over some RVW Reviews. Aye aye, the Reviewers here are 10X more anal than even on the DSCH listings. They themselves may turn me off of RVW, gaaaaaah!!

1) I can't me handle any wind machines. (suuurely technology can help here?)

2) Handley, Hickox, Thomson, Boult, Previn, Haitink, Norrington... can't keep 'em straight.

Well, people like what they like and go for interpretations that suit their own tastes. If someone turns you off RVW then that's your own fault and you're truly missing out on one of the greatest of the 20th Century IMHO. This said, I like Thomson, Handley, Previn, Boult, and a few of Haitink's performances. I do not like Norrington nor have I ever liked any Norrington performance. Anyway, are you looking for recommendations or what?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 21, 2014, 06:53:32 PM
Recently a good friend of mine asked me to give him some RVW recommendations that didn't duplicate his Boult set of symphonies as he wasn't in the market for another symphony set, so here's what I recommended:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/963/MI0000963251.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

He said he didn't own any of the concerti and Chandos put together this box as a companion set to Thomson's symphony set, so he could get this one and have all the concerti plus if he ever wanted to get another symphony set, he can opt for the Thomson.

(http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/166/166044_1_f.jpg)

This EMI two-fer has an assortment of goodies most notably the only recorded performance of the ballet Old King Cole. There are also many other fine performances like Five Mystical Songs and Concerto Accademico.

Since he doesn't own a performance of Job, A Masque for Dancing and since I think it's a major work of RVW's, I suggest this recording:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/091/MI0001091132.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Other suggestions I made was the set of choral music on Hyperion with Matthew Best conducting. Those were great recordings. What do you guys think of these suggestions?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 21, 2014, 07:10:25 PM
Big +1 for the Job recording rec, John, a great piece of music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 21, 2014, 07:15:03 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 21, 2014, 07:10:25 PM
Big +1 for the Job recording rec, John, a great piece of music.

Well you actually recommended me this recording, Greg. I already had every Job (including all three of Boult's), but you suggested I hunt down this Hickox recording, which I didn't know existed, and to this day it remains my favorite performance of the work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 21, 2014, 07:17:51 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 21, 2014, 07:15:03 PM
Well you actually recommended me this recording, Greg. I already had every Job (including all three of Boult's), but you suggested I hunt down this Hickox recording, which I didn't know existed, and to this day it remains my favorite performance of the work.

Very cool, John. I actually forgot that. After a few thousand posts or so you start to forget what you said to who about what!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 21, 2014, 07:20:15 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 21, 2014, 07:17:51 PM
Very cool, John. I actually forgot that. After a few thousand posts or so you start to forget what you said to who about what!  ;D

Hell, I forgot what I said 20 minutes ago! ;) :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2014, 02:48:39 AM
Vaughan Williams's 142nd birthday today. So listened to Symphony 5 and Lark Ascending (Bryden Thomson). I think that Bryden Thomson has been v underrated in VW and Bax.
[asin]B00007JIT3[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 12, 2014, 12:53:16 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2014, 02:48:39 AM
Vaughan Williams's 142nd birthday today. So listened to Symphony 5 and Lark Ascending (Bryden Thomson). I think that Bryden Thomson has been v underrated in VW and Bax.
[asin]B00007JIT3[/asin]

My favorite RVW cycle is Thomson's. That Lark Ascending performance is fantastic as well. All of the nuances found in the work are performed to perfection by violinist Michael Davis and the accompaniment from Thomson couldn't be any better.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 13, 2014, 10:26:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2014, 02:48:39 AM
Vaughan Williams's 142nd birthday today.

I listened to my LP of On Wenlock Edge, Ian Partridge singing. I'm just getting to know this work, but it sounds like VW at his "English visionary" best.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2014, 10:53:38 AM
Quote from: Velimir on October 13, 2014, 10:26:55 AM
I listened to my LP of On Wenlock Edge, Ian Partridge singing. I'm just getting to know this work, but it sounds like VW at his "English visionary" best.

Coincidentally I listened to that wonderful Haitink CD in the car today with the 6th Symphony, in the Fen Country and On Wenlock Edge. It must be one of the best VW discs around for the quality of the music and the performances (it is also dirt cheap on UK Amazon). I then turned on the car radio and they were playing the same recording of In the Fen Country, which was a bit spooky!
[asin]B00000I7WF[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2014, 11:00:05 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 12, 2014, 12:53:16 PM
My favorite RVW cycle is Thomson's. That Lark Ascending performance is fantastic as well. All of the nuances found in the work are performed to perfection by violinist Michael Davis and the accompaniment from Thomson couldn't be any better.
I agree, it is a fine cycle. He is one of the few to get No 6 right.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 14, 2014, 11:12:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2014, 10:53:38 AM
Coincidentally I listened to that wonderful Haitink CD in the car today with the 6th Symphony, in the Fen Country and On Wenlock Edge. It must be one of the best VW discs around for the quality of the music and the performances (it is also dirt cheap on UK Amazon). I then turned on the car radio and they were playing the same recording of In the Fen Country, which was a bit spooky!
[asin]B00000I7WF[/asin]


That is indeed a beauty, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 14, 2014, 05:23:26 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 14, 2014, 11:12:37 AM
That is indeed a beauty, Jeffrey!

+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 14, 2014, 07:03:59 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2014, 10:53:38 AM
Coincidentally I listened to that wonderful Haitink CD in the car today with the 6th Symphony, in the Fen Country and On Wenlock Edge. It must be one of the best VW discs around for the quality of the music and the performances (it is also dirt cheap on UK Amazon). I then turned on the car radio and they were playing the same recording of In the Fen Country, which was a bit spooky!
[asin]B00000I7WF[/asin]

Yes, that's quite a coincidence, Jeffrey. Spooky indeed. That's a great recording there. I've really come to appreciate Haitink's RVW cycle more and more throughout the years. I need to give the whole cycle another spin pretty soon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 15, 2014, 01:07:17 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 14, 2014, 07:03:59 PM
Yes, that's quite a coincidence, Jeffrey. Spooky indeed. That's a great recording there. I've really come to appreciate Haitink's RVW cycle more and more throughout the years. I need to give the whole cycle another spin pretty soon.

Thanks John. I have come to realise what a fine work 'In the Fen Country' is. A kind of transitional work between the Brahms/Parry (as in A Sea Symphony) VW and the fully original VW voice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 15, 2014, 07:05:30 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 15, 2014, 01:07:17 PM
Thanks John. I have come to realise what a fine work 'In the Fen Country' is. A kind of transitional work between the Brahms/Parry (as in A Sea Symphony) VW and the fully original VW voice.

Yep, that's a fine work, indeed. One of my favorite RVW works, aside from the symphonies and Job, is Flos campi. Any favorite performances of this work, Jeffrey?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 16, 2014, 03:56:37 AM
Love Flos campi.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on October 16, 2014, 04:45:10 AM
Hm, I need more RVW discs in my life, in addition to the symphonies, and the EMI Tow. Unkn. Reg. /  Dona Nobis Pacem / Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm / Lark / Tallis / Partita / Cto Grso / Romance for harmonica & strings.
Any suggestions?
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006644H.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006644H/?tag=goodmusicguideco)      (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003XWFLUG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003XWFLUG/?tag=goodmusicguideco)       (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004WMWQ.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004WMWQ/?tag=goodmusicguideco)     (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000DB55E.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DB55E/?tag=goodmusicguideco)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 16, 2014, 04:53:19 AM
The Violin Sonata is wonderful!  (Did you mean, suggestions from the discs you present here?)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on October 16, 2014, 04:57:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2014, 04:53:19 AM
The Violin Sonata is wonderful!  (Did you mean, suggestions from the discs you present here?)
Well, these discs, and anything else too. :) Vocal and chamber music in particular, I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 16, 2014, 05:42:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2014, 03:56:37 AM
Love Flos campi.

Awesome, Karl! Any favorite performances of the work? I like the Handley recording. The violist slips my mind at the moment.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on October 16, 2014, 09:45:06 AM
Five Tudor Portraits.
I have the Willcocks version needledropped, but I don't think it's available otherwise?  There are versions by Hickox and Steinberg on Amazon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Klaze on October 16, 2014, 11:17:08 AM
Definitely 5 Tudor portraits.
Also; Hodie and Sancta Civitas

I also quite like these discs here, regarding chamber or vocal music:

[asin]B00000DOCY[/asin]
[asin]B00005AQNF[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2014, 11:43:08 AM
Quote from: Klaze on October 16, 2014, 11:17:08 AM
Definitely 5 Tudor portraits.
Also; Hodie and Sancta Civitas

I also quite like these discs here, regarding chamber or vocal music:

[asin]B00000DOCY[/asin]
[asin]B00005AQNF[/asin]

Epithalamion is beautiful and largely unknown.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2014, 12:03:25 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 15, 2014, 07:05:30 PM
Yep, that's a fine work, indeed. One of my favorite RVW works, aside from the symphonies and Job, is Flos campi. Any favorite performances of this work, Jeffrey?

Jacques Orchesra, Willcocks, John.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2014, 12:10:49 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2014, 04:53:19 AM
The Violin Sonata is wonderful!  (Did you mean, suggestions from the discs you present here?)

I agree Karl although I like the Music Group of London version best (EMI).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on October 16, 2014, 12:31:30 PM
Thanks, fellow Veranda occupiers. Here's what shopping list looks like this now. The Riders/Epithalamion/Merciless Beauty disc Klaze recommended seems to be OOP / too expensive.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006644H.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006644H/?tag=goodmusicguideco)      (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003XWFLUG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003XWFLUG/?tag=goodmusicguideco)       (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004WMWQ.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004WMWQ/?tag=goodmusicguideco)     (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000J7ZE.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000J7ZE/?tag=goodmusicguideco)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Peter Power Pop on October 16, 2014, 09:32:28 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 16, 2014, 05:42:05 AM
Awesome, Karl! Any favorite performances of the work? I like the Handley recording. The violist slips my mind at the moment.

The violist is Christopher Balmer.

Original 1987 release
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/955/MI0000955425.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Symphony-Campi-Suite/dp/B00000DO16)

2004 reissue
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/078/MI0001078495.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-Flos-Campi-Oboe-Concerto/dp/B0000647HQ)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 16, 2014, 09:35:05 PM
Quote from: Peter Power Pop on October 16, 2014, 09:32:28 PM
The violist is Christopher Balmer.

Original 1987 release
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/955/MI0000955425.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Symphony-Campi-Suite/dp/B00000DO16)

2004 reissue
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/078/MI0001078495.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-Flos-Campi-Oboe-Concerto/dp/B0000647HQ)

Thank you, Peter Power Pop. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Peter Power Pop on October 16, 2014, 09:58:27 PM
Quote from: Klaze on October 16, 2014, 11:17:08 AM
Definitely 5 Tudor portraits.
Also; Hodie and Sancta Civitas

I also quite like these discs here, regarding chamber or vocal music:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5127raAz11L._SX425_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000DOCY)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51q0WNJ87WL._SX425_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005AQNF)

The Phantasy Quintet is one of my favourite Vaughan Williams works.

https://youtu.be/Lf34-mLQYvs

I don't mind the version by the Maggini Quartet and Garfield Jackson (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005AQNF), but I much prefer the one by The English String Quartet and Norbert Blume (http://www.discogs.com/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams-English-String-Quartet-The-Phantasy-Quintet-String-Quartets-Nos-1-2/release/3369756) from 1988:

(http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae102/peterpowerpop/VaughanWilliams-PhantasyQuintetStringQuartetsEnglishQt.jpg) (http://www.discogs.com/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams-English-String-Quartet-The-Phantasy-Quintet-String-Quartets-Nos-1-2/release/3369756)

I thoroughly recommend hunting that one down if you can find it.

Hang on...

Someone's selling it on eBay for £3.69 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vaughan-Williams-Phantasy-Quintet-String-Quartets-Nos-1-2-/400784736085).

And Amazon.com is selling the 2008 reissue (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CINTE8) for $5.74 (new) / $4.76 (used). The reissue is also available on eBay for US$7.72 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VAUGHAN-WILLIAMS-RA-VAUGHAN-WILLIAMS-PHANTASY-QUINTET-STRING-NEW-CD-/141242721020).

Reissue:
(http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae102/peterpowerpop/VaughanWilliams-PhantasyQuintetStringQuartetsEnglishQtreissue.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CINTE8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2014, 03:51:43 AM
Quote from: Klaze on October 16, 2014, 11:17:08 AM
[asin]B00000DOCY[/asin]

Quote from: vandermolen on October 16, 2014, 11:43:08 AM
Epithalamion is beautiful and largely unknown.

Well, between you gents' praise, and the fact that I am necessarily a pushover for a Vaughan Williams piece of the title Merciless Beauty . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2014, 05:24:16 AM
Well, and in truth, I have always been curious after his setting of Riders to the Sea.  So this CD looks pert near perfect.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Klaze on October 17, 2014, 10:16:03 AM
Cool, I think I might have bought that CD because of someone recommending it somewhere in this monster thread, so thanks (someone :P) for that.
Riders to the Sea is in fact the high point for me, but Epithalamion is indeed an excellent work as well.

Nice batch of CDs North Star, that Nash Ensemble CD is high on my to-buy list.

And thanks Peter Power Pop for letting me know about that English SQ CD

...It's wonderful that there is so much RVW to discover, and that most of the works are of such a high standard.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on October 17, 2014, 10:20:14 AM
Quote from: Klaze on October 17, 2014, 10:16:03 AMNice batch of CDs North Star, that Nash Ensemble CD is high on my to-buy list.
I suspect you mean the one without Ainsley ;) - so yes, that's high on my list, too. The other Ainsley disc I ordered today.  8)

Quote...It's wonderful that there is so much RVW to discover, and that most of the works are of such a high standard.
Indeed!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2014, 02:44:18 PM
Quote from: Klaze on October 17, 2014, 10:16:03 AM
Cool, I think I might have bought that CD because of someone recommending it somewhere in this monster thread, so thanks (someone :P) for that.
Riders to the Sea is in fact the high point for me, but Epithalamion is indeed an excellent work as well.

Nice batch of CDs North Star, that Nash Ensemble CD is high on my to-buy list.

And thanks Peter Power Pop for letting me know about that English SQ CD

...It's wonderful that there is so much RVW to discover, and that most of the works are of such a high standard.

I wrote the notes for the Alto CD.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 21, 2014, 02:17:03 PM
New release. An Oxford Elegy for narrator and orchestra is an odd but touching work. This CD has a World War One commemorative theme:
[asin]B00NQ9HVM2[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 21, 2014, 02:58:14 PM
I have the Oxford Elegy in a small EMI reissue box ... I must give it ear.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 22, 2014, 01:09:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 21, 2014, 02:58:14 PM
I have the Oxford Elegy in a small EMI reissue box ... I must give it ear.

Oh, you must do so Karl. It is one of those late VW works which has a particular poetry about it. I really like the unusual voice/orchestra combination. John Westbrook in your EMI box is excellent although I look forward to hearing what Jeremy Irons makes of it. John Westbrook who passed away some years ago is also the finest narrator of Bliss's 'Morning Heroes', another World War One commemorative work (which Bliss wrote as a consequence of nightmares about the Battle of the Somme, in which he had fought and in which his brother had died). I wonder if you know this work - Bliss's masterpiece I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 22, 2014, 06:12:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 22, 2014, 01:09:03 AM
Oh, you must do so Karl. It is one of those late VW works which has a particular poetry about it. I really like the unusual voice/orchestra combination. John Westbrook in your EMI box is excellent although I look forward to hearing what Jeremy Irons makes of it.

This is a beauty, thanks for the pointer, Jeffrey!

The Bliss, I do not know (in fact, I am not sure I know any Bliss . . . will happily pursue your suggestion of Morning Heroes.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 22, 2014, 10:45:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2014, 06:12:03 AM
This is a beauty, thanks for the pointer, Jeffrey!

The Bliss, I do not know (in fact, I am not sure I know any Bliss . . . will happily pursue your suggestion of Morning Heroes.

Oh, you must hear that Karl it is very moving.
PS let us know what you think of An Oxford Elegy - it has an unusually personal quality to it - quite unusual for VW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 22, 2014, 10:48:07 AM
A beautiful piece, the Elegy;  will go back to it soon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 22, 2014, 10:56:30 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2014, 10:48:07 AM
A beautiful piece, the Elegy;  will go back to it soon.

Delighted that you like it Karl.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: amw on October 24, 2014, 05:03:58 PM
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/inthestudio/1154/Vaughan-Williams-from-Andrew-Manze-and-the-RLPO (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/inthestudio/1154/Vaughan-Williams-from-Andrew-Manze-and-the-RLPO)

Heard his Proms performances. Should be pretty sweeet
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 08, 2014, 08:36:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 21, 2014, 02:17:03 PM
New release. An Oxford Elegy for narrator and orchestra is an odd but touching work. This CD has a World War One commemorative theme:
[asin]B00NQ9HVM2[/asin]

If you are familiar with the John Westbrook/David Willcocks version on EMI, Jeremy Irons's comparatively laid back narration will come as a bit of a shock. But, having now listened to it several times it has grown on me and, by the end, I was very moved. The great discovery on this CD for me was the wonderful and entirely characteristic Finzi work. Also, I have never heard a more moving version (slower than usual) of Butterworth's 'A Shropshire Lad'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on November 08, 2014, 01:52:07 PM
Vaughan Williams:
Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
Serenade to Music
Toward the Unknown Region
Partita
Concerto Grosso

London PO/Boult

from this great set
[asin] B00B2GYJ3U[/asin]

Still struggling with moving into Vaughan Williams. Easy to enjoy Tallis or Serenade, but the complexity of other pieces sometimes elude me. Quite a bit of disharmony and chaotic tendencies within that definitely do not match with my psyche.  Hmmm, at the same time an immense beauty that unravels itself every here and there that makes one want to continue to engage with the music. Perhaps it is an image of life with its ups and downs that is partially depicted in his compositions?

I watched Tony Palmer's documentary yesterday to get a better sense of connection and immersion within Vaughan Williams music.  It was quite interesting with great commentary, imagery as well as snippets of his compositions. Worthwhile in case you have not seen it (but I presume most people on this thread have).


[asin] B00118DQX8[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 08, 2014, 02:09:46 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on November 08, 2014, 01:52:07 PM
Vaughan Williams:
Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
Serenade to Music
Toward the Unknown Region
Partita
Concerto Grosso

London PO/Boult

from this great set
[asin] B00B2GYJ3U[/asin]

Still struggling with moving into Vaughan Williams. Easy to enjoy Tallis or Serenade, but the complexity of other pieces sometimes elude me. Quite a bit of disharmony and chaotic tendencies within that definitely do not match with my psyche.  Hmmm, at the same time an immense beauty that unravels itself every here and there that makes one want to continue to engage with the music. Perhaps it is an image of life with its ups and downs that is partially depicted in his compositions?

I watched Tony Palmer's documentary yesterday to get a better sense of connection and immersion within Vaughan Williams music.  It was quite interesting with great commentary, imagery as well as snippets of his compositions. Worthwhile in case you have not seen it (but I presume most people on this thread have).


[asin] B00118DQX8[/asin]

You might like Symphony 5 which some consider the greatest ( although I prefer No. 6). I must be about the only VW fan who does not like the 'Serenade to Music'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on November 08, 2014, 02:18:29 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 08, 2014, 02:09:46 PM
You might like Symphony 5 which some consider the greatest ( although I prefer No. 6). I must be about the only VW fan who does not like the 'Serenade to Music'.

Yes, I have been dipping into 1, 2, 4 and 5 quite a bit. 5 is definitely the most approachable. I suspect it is a matter (like most composers) to get used to a unique soundscape. Watching the film was quite revelatory and made me appreciate his music more. I am also quite curious about his songs and other shorter pieces. I want to check out more of his choral works. Do you like Sancta Civitas or Flos campi?

Interesting that you dislike the Serenade. It is a beautiful piece of music. Perhaps it requires some major spacing (timewise like once per year) to be appreciated in its serenity?   :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 08, 2014, 11:34:24 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on November 08, 2014, 02:18:29 PM
Yes, I have been dipping into 1, 2, 4 and 5 quite a bit. 5 is definitely the most approachable. I suspect it is a matter (like most composers) to get used to a unique soundscape. Watching the film was quite revelatory and made me appreciate his music more. I am also quite curious about his songs and other shorter pieces. I want to check out more of his choral works. Do you like Sancta Civitas or Flos campi?

Interesting that you dislike the Serenade. It is a beautiful piece of music. Perhaps it requires some major spacing (timewise like once per year) to be appreciated in its serenity?   :D

Interesting to hear your views. Sancta Civitas is the most beautiful of the choral works and I have been lucky to hear it live ( in the church where VW married his first wife near to where I work ). I'm not sure from your message if you have heard it yet but if not give it a go. Yes, I am an admirer of Flos Campi too, with its rather rarified atmosphere. Don't know what it is about the Serenade to Music but I find it rather cloying. I prefer the orchestral only version. A friend of mine who also admires the composer said that he found it a bit self-congratulatory and un characteristic of the composer but this might be a bit extreme. What do you make of 'A Pastoral Symphony' which is now seen as a lament for his contemporaries killed in World War One rather than depicting 'A cow looking over a gate' as dismissively suggested by Peter Warlock or, better still, symbolising 'VW rolling over and over in a ploughed field on a wet day'!? The film was most interesting notwithstanding some completely inappropriate images of war and famine accompanying the sequence about the Ninth Symphony (which is a work I find both powerfully defiant and extremely moving).
Jeffrey

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on November 09, 2014, 11:07:13 AM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 5      Royal Liverpool PO/Handley

Twice this morning!  8)   Even my wife became quite interested in the symphony. Like you mentioned, Jeffrey, this is a great gateway to Vaughan Williams's music. It has such a rich soundscape evoking numerous emotions and somehow resonates with individual memories and experiences. There are a few passages which have a degree of disharmony, but I think that the unique harmony of Vaughan Williams' tends to dominate. The Tony Palmer film suggested that Symphony No 5 was linked to his emotional journey with Ursula Wood. This could of course be true, but it is simply an hypothesis and nothing more. Actually, I thought that Palmer's film overemphasized Vaughan Williams' relationships over his music which was a bit surprising.  Surely, Vaughan Williams' mind must have had numerous other dimensions than his interest in women?
Regardless, Symphony No 5 is a beauty and a pleasure to listen to.  Was No 5 your gateway to the symphonies or did you go the route of the Sea Symphony?

Peter

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410W1B8DX2L.jpg)

from
[asin] B00156ZWV0[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on November 09, 2014, 11:13:50 AM
Purchased Boult's mono cycle earlier today as I have never heard it.  It seems to have a great reputation, so I have become quite curious about Boult's early recordings of the symphonies on Decca. There is such a flood of Vaughan Williams cycles, but I have generally gravitated around Boult's on EMI as well as Handley's. I used to listen a lot to Previn's but it has disappeared within my stacks (embarrassing) so it is time to dig it out.  Regardless, it seems quite a bit more difficult to find recordings of Vaughan Williams' less established compositions. EMI's RVW composer box was a savior allowing one to sample the more obscure.  :)
Looking forward to listen to Boult's early recordings!

[asin] B00007A3E2[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ken B on November 09, 2014, 11:36:40 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on November 09, 2014, 11:07:13 AM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 5      Royal Liverpool PO/Handley

Twice this morning!  8)   Even my wife became quite interested in the symphony. Like you mentioned, Jeffrey, this is a great gateway to Vaughan Williams's music. It has such a rich soundscape evoking numerous emotions and somehow resonates with individual memories and experiences. There are a few passages which have a degree of disharmony, but I think that the unique harmony of Vaughan Williams' tends to dominate. The Tony Palmer film suggested that Symphony No 5 was linked to his emotional journey with Ursula Wood. This could of course be true, but it is simply an hypothesis and nothing more. Actually, I thought that Palmer's film overemphasized Vaughan Williams' relationships over his music which was a bit surprising.  Surely, Vaughan Williams' mind must have had numerous other dimensions than his interest in women?
Regardless, Symphony No 5 is a beauty and a pleasure to listen to.  Was No 5 your gateway to the symphonies or did you go the route of the Sea Symphony?

Peter

[asin] B0000647HR[/asin]

from
[asin] B00156ZWV0[/asin]

I got to know 4 and 5 first. I had them practically memorized at one point. I still think them much the best of the bunch.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2014, 12:12:07 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on November 09, 2014, 11:07:13 AMSurely, Vaughan Williams' mind must have had numerous other dimensions than his interest in women?

Women and music...that's pretty much the only things my mind focuses on  8)  VW could have done worse  ;)

Quote from: Moonfish on November 09, 2014, 11:07:13 AM
Was No 5 your gateway to the symphonies

For me it was 4 (first heard during one of Lenny's Young Peoples's Concerts) and then 2 and 8. The odd thing for me was how long it took for the Fifth to grab me (odd because it's his most popular symphony): literally decades...not until I heard Menhuin's performance on CD. From your previous comments, I'm going to assume the Fourth is giving you trouble.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on November 09, 2014, 12:13:30 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2014, 12:12:07 PM
Women and music...that's pretty much the only things my mind focuses on  8)  VW could have done worse  ;)

Sarge

I thought it was wine, women and music??   ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2014, 12:17:07 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on November 09, 2014, 12:13:30 PM
I thought it was wine, women and music??   ;)

I'm so consumed by women and music, I plum forgot wine  ;D ...even though I just helped down a superb grand cru pinot noir.

Sarge
Title: Re: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 10, 2014, 10:00:50 AM


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2014, 12:12:07 PM
Women and music...that's pretty much the only things my mind focuses on  8)  VW could have done worse  ;)

+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 10, 2014, 10:02:35 AM


Quote from: North Star on November 10, 2014, 08:52:04 AM
It really (not that much actually) bugs me when people write '+1' when they only mean that they find the post agreeable, instead of being able to post the exactly same thing.  ;)

Uh-oh.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on November 10, 2014, 10:25:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2014, 12:17:07 PM
I'm so consumed by women and music, I plum forgot wine  ;D

Sarge

You forgot the plum wine ? Damn', I so liked it the only time I tried it.   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on November 10, 2014, 10:31:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 10, 2014, 10:02:35 AM
Uh-oh.
So your mind focuses on something else, Karl? Or RVW couldn't have done worse?  :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 10, 2014, 10:59:05 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on November 09, 2014, 11:07:13 AM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 5      Royal Liverpool PO/Handley

Twice this morning!  8)   Even my wife became quite interested in the symphony. Like you mentioned, Jeffrey, this is a great gateway to Vaughan Williams's music. It has such a rich soundscape evoking numerous emotions and somehow resonates with individual memories and experiences. There are a few passages which have a degree of disharmony, but I think that the unique harmony of Vaughan Williams' tends to dominate. The Tony Palmer film suggested that Symphony No 5 was linked to his emotional journey with Ursula Wood. This could of course be true, but it is simply an hypothesis and nothing more. Actually, I thought that Palmer's film overemphasized Vaughan Williams' relationships over his music which was a bit surprising.  Surely, Vaughan Williams' mind must have had numerous other dimensions than his interest in women?
Regardless, Symphony No 5 is a beauty and a pleasure to listen to.  Was No 5 your gateway to the symphonies or did you go the route of the Sea Symphony?

Peter

[asin] B0000647HR[/asin]

from
[asin] B00156ZWV0[/asin]

No Peter, it certainly was not A Sea Symphony which I did not really appreciate at all until listening to the Haitink recording about a year ago, which was a revelation. My first VW LP was Morton Gould and his Orchestra performing the Tallis Fantasia, Greensleves and the English Folksong Suite on RCA. This I enjoyed but it was not until, on my way home from school, I picked up a Decca Eclipse LP of Boult conducting Symphony No. 6 that I became more or less obsessed with the music. I was 17 at the time. It is the same performance as in your new box set with the charming speech by the composer at the end 'I want to thank you most heartily...' For a long time I found it difficult to hear Symphony 6 without hearing the speech at the end. It is in my view the greatest performance of Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony (a synthesis of the violent No 4 and spiritual No 5). Your Decca box also features an Everest recording of Symphony 9 recorded on the day of the composer's death (he died suddenly during the night and had been due to attend the recording session in the morning). Boult makes a moving speech. I love the Decca box as it was my earliest entry point into the symphonies, although I also had the EMI later Boult set on LP. As for the lesser known works I recommend the craggy Fantasia on the Old 104th, Epithalamion, and Job. I was very moved by a performance of 'The Pilgrim's Progress' in London a few years ago. In my wide eyed youthful obsession with the music of Vaughan Williams I wrote to his wife (Ursula) and received a nice letter back and a book of the composer's essays which she inscribed to me and which is a treasured possession. There is also a TV documentary called 'The Loves of Vaughan Willliams' which is even more obsessed with this side of the composers life.
Best wishes, Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on November 17, 2014, 07:00:01 AM
VW enjoyed his records as well..  :)

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/42ba1efc3f3c6392aabc73d07199b256/tumblr_ndepzzvkF31t06hqzo1_1280.png)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 17, 2014, 11:05:37 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on November 17, 2014, 07:00:01 AM
VW enjoyed his records as well..  :)

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/42ba1efc3f3c6392aabc73d07199b256/tumblr_ndepzzvkF31t06hqzo1_1280.png)

Yes, that's a great photo of the old man.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on January 17, 2015, 10:39:38 PM
Definitely need to *bump* this thread!   ;)

Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 5          London PO/Haitink

I couldn't resist the symphony. I have always liked RVW's 5th, but this time I sensed a greater depth and warmth within it than in previous listening sessions. I tend to enjoy the more pastoral side of RVW and the 5th fits the bill.  Haitink did a fine job here, but I sense the need to return to Boult and Handley's recording for further immersion.  There is quite a bit of variation between the soundscapes within the different symphonies.  Regardless, what is your favorite 5th?

[asin] B000002RVL[/asin]
from
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71a-h2mMcgL._SX425_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 17, 2015, 11:06:24 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 17, 2015, 10:39:38 PM
Definitely need to *bump* this thread!   ;)

Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 5          London PO/Haitink

I couldn't resist the symphony. I have always liked RVW's 5th, but this time I sensed a greater depth and warmth within it than in previous listening sessions. I tend to enjoy the more pastoral side of RVW and the 5th fits the bill.  Haitink did a fine job here, but I sense the need to return to Boult and Handley's recording for further immersion.  There is quite a bit of variation between the soundscapes within the different symphonies.  Regardless, what is your favorite 5th?

[asin] B000002RVL[/asin]
from
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71a-h2mMcgL._SX425_.jpg)

Well, three come to mind. I love the EMI Barbirolli version for its humanity and warmth. The Hickox version is very fine too and has some great accompanying rarities such as the 'Pilgrim's Pavement' and a while back a recording of VW conducting the work at the 1952 Proms was issued. This is a great performance and features a terrific coupling of 'Dona Nobis Pacem', also conducted by the composer. The recording is obviously a historic one but I actually prefer this to VW's own recording of his 4th Symphony.
[asin]B00000I0TE[/asin]
[asin]B000WM86UW[/asin]
[asin]B000024ZLI[/asin]

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 01, 2015, 03:33:33 AM
Very well reviewed in Sunday Times (UK) today. Live performances:
[asin]B00RDKD8RW[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 01, 2015, 09:59:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 01, 2015, 03:33:33 AM
Very well reviewed in Sunday Times (UK) today. Live performances:


Hey, looks good. I like the Jurowski/LPO combo - heard them live last year.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 01, 2015, 10:28:45 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 01, 2015, 09:59:14 AM
Hey, looks good. I like the Jurowski/LPO combo - heard them live last year.

Me too, except a few years ago performing Miaskovsky's 6th Symphony. I was introduced to Jurowski before a rehearsal. He was exceptionally welcoming and friendly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on February 16, 2015, 05:04:37 PM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 7 (Sinfonia Antartica)          Burrowes/London P Choir & O/Boult

This is definitely one of my favorite RVW symphonies and Boult is shaping a soundscape that truly shines in this performance. Wonderful! Full of mystery and texture!   0:)
The 7th seems so different compared to the other symphonies and strangely it was the one that made me more interested in his other symphonies. The choral portion of the work is full of such frosty whisperings that I feel quite cold and imagine enormous fields of ice filling my field of vision to the horizon. Great music!

from
[asin] B00B2GYJ3U[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Rons_talking on February 17, 2015, 01:33:44 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 10, 2014, 10:59:05 AM
No Peter, it certainly was not A Sea Symphony which I did not really appreciate at all until listening to the Haitink recording about a year ago, which was a revelation. My first VW LP was Morton Gould and his Orchestra performing the Tallis Fantasia, Greensleves and the English Folksong Suite on RCA. This I enjoyed but it was not until, on my way home from school, I picked up a Decca Eclipse LP of Boult conducting Symphony No. 6 that I became more or less obsessed with the music. I was 17 at the time. It is the same performance as in your new box set with the charming speech by the composer at the end 'I want to thank you most heartily...' For a long time I found it difficult to hear Symphony 6 without hearing the speech at the end. It is in my view the greatest performance of Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony (a synthesis of the violent No 4 and spiritual No 5). Your Decca box also features an Everest recording of Symphony 9 recorded on the day of the composer's death (he died suddenly during the night and had been due to attend the recording session in the morning). Boult makes a moving speech. I love the Decca box as it was my earliest entry point into the symphonies, although I also had the EMI later Boult set on LP. As for the lesser known works I recommend the craggy Fantasia on the Old 104th, Epithalamion, and Job. I was very moved by a performance of 'The Pilgrim's Progress' in London a few years ago. In my wide eyed youthful obsession with the music of Vaughan Williams I wrote to his wife (Ursula) and received a nice letter back and a book of the composer's essays which she inscribed to me and which is a treasured possession. There is also a TV documentary called 'The Loves of Vaughan Willliams' which is even more obsessed with this side of the composers life.
Best wishes, Jeffrey
Quote from: vandermolen on November 17, 2014, 11:05:37 PM

I agree about the Barn
Yes, that's a great photo of the old man.

The Barbirolli recording of S5 is my favorite recording of my favorite RVW piece. Just gorgeous! It literally changed my musical life...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Rons_talking on February 17, 2015, 01:41:02 AM
I've streaming this (LSO-Thomson)wonderful recording of the 8th. Wow! This piece is a gem! It has the ideal balance of lively vs. serene. And the colors...The string cavatina is beautiful. They say percussion is the domain of the young composer; RVW proves this wrong big-time. I really like this Bryden Thomson record. And to think, I have missed his late works all these years...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 17, 2015, 06:24:01 AM
Quote from: Rons_talking on February 17, 2015, 01:41:02 AM
I've streaming this (LSO-Thomson)wonderful recording of the 8th. Wow! This piece is a gem! It has the ideal balance of lively vs. serene. And the colors...The string cavatina is beautiful. They say percussion is the domain of the young composer; RVW proves this wrong big-time. I really like this Bryden Thomson record. And to think, I have missed his late works all these years...

I've been enjoying the new Jurowski of Symphony 8. I think that the work has a magical quality about it - as does the much darker No. 9, which I find very moving. Do you know it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2015, 06:39:47 AM
The Eighth was one of the first of the symphonies to win me over.  So, as it turned out, the thin edge of the wedge  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 17, 2015, 06:57:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2015, 06:39:47 AM
The Eighth was one of the first of the symphonies to win me over.  So, as it turned out, the thin edge of the wedge  8)

As a tinsy teenager I heard Boult conduct the 8th live at the Royal Festival Hall in London on 12th October 1972, the 100th anniversary of Vaughan Williams's birth. It was with 'Job' which I had never heard before. A great experience for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on February 18, 2015, 10:03:09 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 17, 2015, 06:57:08 AM
As a tinsy teenager I heard Boult conduct the 8th live at the Royal Festival Hall in London on 12th October 1972, the 100th anniversary of Vaughan Williams's birth. It was with 'Job' which I had never heard before. A great experience for me.

Was your interest in classical music already going as a teenager? I wonder how many teenagers today that would be awed by RVW's "Job"?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 18, 2015, 11:33:47 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 18, 2015, 10:03:09 AM
Was your interest in classical music already going as a teenager? I wonder how many teenagers today that would be awed by RVW's "Job"?

Well, I have a seven year older brother who was very keen on classical music, especially Bruckner, when I was growing up so, I guess that he was a big influence on me. I grew up quite near to the Albert Hall in London, so we would often walk to the Proms concerts. Buying the LP of Vaughan Williams's Symphony 6 (LPO Boult) was the turning point for me and it was just before the Vaughan Williams Centenary in 1972 when there was a lot of interest in his music. However, I still listened to Jimi Hendrix and my jazz/rock LPs too!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on February 18, 2015, 11:36:14 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 18, 2015, 10:03:09 AM
Was your interest in classical music already going as a teenager? I wonder how many teenagers today that would be awed by RVW's "Job"?
I was a teenager when I joined this place.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 19, 2015, 12:38:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 18, 2015, 11:33:47 PM
Well, I have a seven year older brother who was very keen on classical music, especially Bruckner, when I was growing up so, I guess that he was a big influence on me. I grew up quite near to the Albert Hall in London, so we would often walk to the Proms concerts. Buying the LP of Vaughan Williams's Symphony 6 (LPO Boult) was the turning point for me and it was just before the Vaughan Williams Centenary in 1972 when there was a lot of interest in his music. However, I still listened to Jimi Hendrix and my jazz/rock LPs too!  8)

Great story, many thanks for sharing it! :-) I think we both know that we had a comparable Vaughan Williams 'conversion' in our teens (I'm a bit younger). My turning point came when I heard Boult's A Pastoral Symphony around 1977, when I was 15. There was some classical music in the house, mostly baroque, but since we were real countrysiders (farming family), we had no connection with any music culture, not even in a nearby village. I remember strolling alone in the nature with A Pastoral Symphony in my head (no 'walkman' yet, in those days, to put it ON my head :-), so for me the mystic landscape of my youth is forever connected to this music. The real breakthrough came when I was 16 and allowed to hire LP's in a public library in a provincial town. They had a fine collection, among them many great Lyrita recordings, and I didn't even have to smuggle guys like Havergal Brian, Holst or Rubbra into our farming house. :-)
However, I listened to bands like Japan, Ultravox or Visage too; and still do. :-)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 19, 2015, 12:50:50 AM
Quote from: Christo on February 19, 2015, 12:38:45 AM
Great story, many thanks for sharing it! :-) I think we both know that we had a comparable Vaughan Williams 'conversion' in our teens (I'm a bit younger). My turning point came when I heard Boult's A Pastoral Symphony around 1977, when I was 15. There was some classical music in the house, mostly baroque, but since we were real countrysiders (farming family), we had no connection with any music culture, not even in a nearby village. I remember strolling alone in the nature with A Pastoral Symphony in my head (no 'walkman' yet, in those days, to put it ON my head :-), so for me the mystic landscape of my youth is forever connected to this music. The real breakthrough came when I was 16 and allowed to hire LP's in a public library in a provincial town. They had a fine collection, among them many great Lyrita recordings, and I didn't even have to smuggle guys like Havergal Brian, Holst or Rubbra into our farming house. :-)
However, I listened to bands like Japan, Ultravox or Visage too; and still do. :-)

That's a great story too! Yes, our experiences are not dissimilar. After my eureka VW conversion experience I worked on a farm for six weeks in Zeeland near Bergen op Zoom in your home country. This was between school and university, so I was 18. I remember driving the farmer's tractor (at top speed  >:D) around the fields with Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony going through me head (no Walkman for me either!) You probably know this already, so now you can get back to answering my question on the Kinsella thread. The record library in High Street Kensington was a god send for me in those days. I even made my Frank Sinatra loving father join so I could use his tickets. I remember taking Boult's EMI LP out with Symphony 8 and the
Piano Concerto on featuring Sir Gerald Kelly's wonderful painting of the old composer on the front. Other discoveries were the Lyritas of Patrick Hadley, Cyril Scott, John Ireland + Klaus Egge Symphony 1, Miaskovsky Symphony 6, Janis Ivanovs, Allan Pettersson etcetc - enough nostalgia for today. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 04:29:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 19, 2015, 12:50:50 AM
That's a great story too! Yes, our experiences are not dissimilar. After my eureka VW conversion experience I worked on a farm for six weeks in Zeeland near Bergen op Zoom in your home country. This was between school and university, so I was 18. I remember driving the farmer's tractor (at top speed  >:D) around the fields with Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony going through me head (no Walkman for me either!) You probably know this already, so now you can get back to answering my question on the Kinsella thread. The record library in High Street Kensington was a god send for me in those days. I even made my Frank Sinatra loving father join so I could use his tickets. I remember taking Boult's EMI LP out with Symphony 8 and the
Piano Concerto on featuring Sir Gerald Kelly's wonderful painting of the old composer on the front. Other discoveries were the Lyritas of Patrick Hadley, Cyril Scott, John Ireland + Klaus Egge Symphony 1, Miaskovsky Symphony 6, Janis Ivanovs, Allan Pettersson etcetc - enough nostalgia for today. :)

Ahh, I like your stories! I suspect that my family home never has had the experience of RVW's music filling its rooms. I had some minor classical music drifting through my life when I was a kid. The real fire for classical music did not really grow in me until I was in my mid-20s going to graduate school. RVW's music was brought into my life by my girl friend at the time. I had fallen in love with her and couldn't imagine a life without her (ah, so naive one can be at times). I remember one morning waking up with her and she insisted on us listening to "The Lark Ascending" (which I had never heard). I still remember laying in bed snuggled up to the greatest love of my life listening to the intricate beauty of the violin soaring towards the skies. Such beauty!  I was so in love with this woman so I forever associate the music of The Lark Ascending with her existence and our time together.  The music brings back so many memories of her spark and intrinsic beauty. She and RVW made a fan on me that day...   :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 19, 2015, 05:01:01 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 04:29:27 AM
Ahh, I like your stories! I suspect that my family home never has had the experience of RVW's music filling its rooms. I had some minor classical music drifting through my life when I was a kid. The real fire for classical music did not really grow in me until I was in my mid-20s going to graduate school. RVW's music was brought into my life by my girl friend at the time. I had fallen in love with her and couldn't imagine a life without her (ah, so naive one cane be at times). I remember one morning waking up with her and she insisted on us listening to "The Lark Ascending" (which I had never heard). I still remember laying in bed snuggled up to the greatest love of my life listening to the intricate beauty of the violin soaring towards the skies. Such beauty!  I was so in love with this woman so I forever associate the music of The Lark Ascending with her existence and our time together.  The music brings back so many memories of her spark and intrinsic beauty. She and RVW made a fan on me that day...   :)

That's a very romantic association - how nice. My wife and daughter do not share my taste in classical music. 'MUST WE LISTEN TO THIS NOISE?' Is as romantic as it gets for me. Or 'IT SOUNDS LIKE WORLD WAR THREE IS GOING ON!'  ???
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2015, 05:21:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 19, 2015, 05:01:01 AM
Or 'IT SOUNDS LIKE WORLD WAR THREE IS GOING ON!'  ???

And that's the Henning you listen to!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 11:20:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 19, 2015, 05:01:01 AM
That's a very romantic association ..

It is indeed sweet to have a romantic link to RVW's music. His auditory soundscape seems to resonate with such feelings... Reality cease to exist when I hear the incantation poetically referred to as The Lark Ascending!   0:)


Again!! Third time in two days.
Vaughan Williams: Pastoral Symphony               London PO/Boult     (1952)

I am getting fond of the inquiring tone of the trumpet in the 2nd movement.  :)   Does the last movement invoke themes later used in Sinfonia Antarctica? Perhaps it his use of voice that makes me see it that way. I cannot wait to explore the other Boult performances in this box. Very promising!

from
[asin] B00007A3E2[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2015, 11:22:17 AM
Huge fan of A Pastoral Symphony!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 11:23:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 19, 2015, 11:22:17 AM
Huge fan of A Pastoral Symphony!

:)
I can't decide if I should listen to it one more time or move on to the Fifth... :-\
Decisions, decisions!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on February 19, 2015, 11:34:12 AM
Boult's Pastoral for me too, the EMI recording with New Philharmonia
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 19, 2015, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 19, 2015, 05:21:01 AM
And that's the Henning you listen to!  8)

It most certainly is!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 19, 2015, 12:02:15 PM
Quote from: North Star on February 19, 2015, 11:34:12 AM
Boult's Pastoral for me too, the EMI recording with New Philharmonia

The new Mark Elder recording is wonderful although the soprano is too closely recorded in the last movement. Previn remains my favourite on RCA.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 19, 2015, 12:04:37 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 11:20:49 AM
It is indeed sweet to have a romantic link to RVW's music. His auditory soundscape seems to resonate with such feelings... Reality cease to exist when I hear the incantation poetically referred to as The Lark Ascending!   0:)


Again!! Third time in two days.
Vaughan Williams: Pastoral Symphony               London PO/Boult     (1952)

I am getting fond of the inquiring tone of the trumpet in the 2nd movement.  :)   Does the last movement invoke themes later used in Sinfonia Antarctica? Perhaps it his use of voice that makes me see it that way. I cannot wait to explore the other Boult performances in this box. Very promising!

from
[asin] B00007A3E2[/asin]

That is my favourite set of the VW symphonies and you get the Everest Ninth thrown in which was not a Decca recording + speeches by Boult and the great man himself after Symphony 6: 'I want to thank you most heartily...'
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2015, 06:11:59 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 11:20:49 AM
It is indeed sweet to have a romantic link to RVW's music. His auditory soundscape seems to resonate with such feelings... Reality cease to exist when I hear the incantation poetically referred to as The Lark Ascending!   0:)


Again!! Third time in two days.
Vaughan Williams: Pastoral Symphony               London PO/Boult     (1952)

I am getting fond of the inquiring tone of the trumpet in the 2nd movement.  :)   Does the last movement invoke themes later used in Sinfonia Antarctica? Perhaps it his use of voice that makes me see it that way. I cannot wait to explore the other Boult performances in this box. Very promising!

from
[asin] B00007A3E2[/asin]

I like that first set of Boult's 'okay' but I prefer his later EMI recordings. I thought you weren't that big of a fan of RVW's music, Peter? Let me say this: you MUST conquer the middle trilogy of symphonies. There is so much musical treasure here that it just blows my mind that you've somehow neglected these monumental works or is this just my imagination playing tricks on me again? :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 07:03:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2015, 06:11:59 PM
I like that first set of Boult's 'okay' but I prefer his later EMI recordings. I thought you weren't that big of a fan of RVW's music, Peter? Let me say this: you MUST conquer the middle trilogy of symphonies. There is so much musical treasure here that it just blows my mind that you've somehow neglected these monumental works or is this just my imagination playing tricks on me again? :)

Ha ha! Are you trying to convert me , John? I have been perusing the 5th quite a bit, but 4 and 6 are not yet landmarks. The 7th and 8th are preferred in my book, while I am having issues with 1 and 2. As time goes by I will certainly remedy the situation as I do like RVW quite a bit.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2015, 07:09:25 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 07:03:37 PM
Ha ha! Are you trying to convert me , John? I have been perusing the 5th quite a bit, but 4 and 6 are not yet landmarks. The 7th and 8th are preferred in my book, while I am having issues with 1 and 2. As time goes by I will certainly remedy the situation as I do like RVW quite a bit.

Yes, I'm trying to convert you! ;) The 4th and 6th aren't easy nuts to crack, but I think if one is already attuned to RVW's sonic-world, then it's only a matter of time before they 'click' for you. What makes these two particular symphonies interesting is their contrasts with the 3rd and 5th. The thunderous, almost sinister opening to the 4th must have shocked audiences who only associated RVW with more pastoral music. Give them time. I think you'll come away with a greater appreciation for them as time marches on.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 19, 2015, 10:14:06 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 19, 2015, 11:22:17 AM
Huge fan of A Pastoral Symphony!

I want it for my funeral. But my wife is only prepared to allow me the everlasting grace of the Tallis Fantasia. No doubt, she is suspicious of the sufi gnostic in me and trying to Christianize me a bit over my dead body. I agreed on her terms.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2015, 03:45:31 AM
Hah!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 20, 2015, 05:02:50 AM
I noticed the obituary of Michael Kennedy in the paper today at the age of 88. He wrote the official musical biography of the composer and numerous LP and CD booklet notes for VW's music. He also wrote books on Elgar, Britten, Walton and Richard Strauss. As a young man in the Navy during the war he wrote a fan letter to Vaughan Williams and they became friends. The last photo of Vaughan Williams in 1958 was with Michael Kennedy. RIP.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11319299/Michael-Kennedy-obituary.html
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2015, 08:57:46 AM
I read that bio!  And should now read it again, having since listened to so much more of the music
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 20, 2015, 12:14:27 PM
Michael Kennedy was a great champion of VW's music and British music generally. He was a skillful writer and I have enjoyed everything of his I have read.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 07, 2015, 11:32:54 PM
I have been listening a lot to the 'Five Tudor Portraits' (1936) a work that I had largely ignored for many years. It is a much greater work than I had realised. It is a choral setting of poems by  the Tudor poet John Skelton (c.1460-1529) and apparently Elgar gave Vaughan Williams the idea for the work. It is a bit in the spirit of Dyson's 'Canterbury Pilgrims' but more like Karl Orff's 'Carmina Burana' (a work that I don't like very much, apart from the famous bit). The Five Tudor Portraits are amongst the most 'English' of Vaughan Williams's compositions and will not be everyone's cup of tea (which is also very English 8)) but it is a lot of fun, very enjoyable and there are some passages of great beauty. It is a deeper work than I had thought. There are a few recordings and this is my favourite, also for the marvellous couplings:
[asin]B00000DOCS[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 23, 2015, 09:56:02 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 20, 2015, 12:14:27 PMMichael Kennedy was a great champion of VW's music and British music generally. He was a skillful writer and I have enjoyed everything of his I have read.

My words. Always read everything he wrote with pleasure as it was always both very well informed and stimulating.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 09, 2015, 11:42:43 PM
This is as good a version as I have heard of Dona Nobis Pacem, the composer's 1936 choral/orchestral plea for peace as the war clouds began to gather over Europe. Great to hear an American orchestra play this music, bringing back memories of Abravanel's fine Utah recording which was my first contact with the work when I took the LP out of a library in the early 1970s. Of course Walt Whitman features a lot as he was Vaughan Williams's favourite composer as a young man. The Whitman is interspersed with settings from the Bible. Considering that the 'Dirge for Two Veterans' was composed decades before the rest of it the whole things hangs together very well. I have been lucky to see this great work performed live in London. Wonderful recording and deeply moving performance - the message is as apposite now as it was then. The coupling is enjoyable but it is to the Vaughan Williams that I shall be returning:
[asin]B00UART4JQ[/asin]
The CD contains the last booklet notes written by Michael Kennedy who sadly passed away before the CD was released. It also contains a nice photo of Vaughan Williams. I always like the booklets to feature a photo of the composer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Rinaldo on June 10, 2015, 07:01:04 AM
A very cool connection between RVW's 7th and 2001: A Space Odyssey was revealed by Keir Dullea, who played the astronaut David Bowman.

Quote from: Keir DulleaThe visual effects of my journey through time and space were created well after I had finished the film. Stanley filmed me mostly in close-up reacting to something that I actually wasn't seeing. He created an old silent movie trick: he played some extraordinary music to put me in the mood. Specifically, a movement from Vaughan Williams' Sinfonia Antartica. If you're interested, look it up and wait for a very mysterioso section of the piece. That's what helped me react to something I wasn't seeing.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2nh4ru/im_keir_dullea_dave_from_2001_a_space_odyssey_ask/cmdj69e (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2nh4ru/im_keir_dullea_dave_from_2001_a_space_odyssey_ask/cmdj69e)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 10, 2015, 11:48:46 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on June 10, 2015, 07:01:04 AM
A very cool connection between RVW's 7th and 2001: A Space Odyssey was revealed by Keir Dullea, who played the astronaut David Bowman.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2nh4ru/im_keir_dullea_dave_from_2001_a_space_odyssey_ask/cmdj69e (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2nh4ru/im_keir_dullea_dave_from_2001_a_space_odyssey_ask/cmdj69e)

How extraordinary. A fascinating link between my favourite British composer and my favourite film (at least it was when it first came out, in 1968, when I was 13 - I saw it eight times in the space of about two weeks at the Odeon Cinema Leicester Square in London - dragging all of my family along, many of whom didn't like it at all)  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 11, 2015, 05:36:44 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on June 10, 2015, 07:01:04 AM
A very cool connection between RVW's 7th and 2001: A Space Odyssey was revealed by Keir Dullea, who played the astronaut David Bowman.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2nh4ru/im_keir_dullea_dave_from_2001_a_space_odyssey_ask/cmdj69e (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2nh4ru/im_keir_dullea_dave_from_2001_a_space_odyssey_ask/cmdj69e)

Great story!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on June 21, 2015, 01:15:56 PM
Vaughan Williams:
Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
Pastoral Symphony
Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus
Overture: The Wasps

Hallé Orchestra/Elder


Marvelous! Elder and his Hallé forces really bring an eloquent sweetness to the Pastoral Symphony. I have become more fond of Elder's recordings the more I listen to them. This disc is overall stunning in both compilation and execution seemingly encompassing numerous aspects of the warmth and serenity RVW encompassed in his compositions. If any friends of mine showed interest in RVW I suspect that this is the recording I would recommend to them. Personally it was the Theme of Thomas Tallis as well as The Lark Ascending that introduced me to RVW decades ago and I will never forget the experience. This recording reminds me of those moments in my life. Serene beauty indeed!

[asin] B00OU4J42W[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 21, 2015, 09:34:58 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on June 21, 2015, 01:15:56 PM
Vaughan Williams:
Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
Pastoral Symphony
Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus
Overture: The Wasps

Hallé Orchestra/Elder


Marvelous! Elder and his Hallé forces really bring an eloquent sweetness to the Pastoral Symphony. I have become more fond of Elder's recordings the more I listen to them. This disc is overall stunning in both compilation and execution seemingly encompassing numerous aspects of the warmth and serenity RVW encompassed in his compositions. If any friends of mine showed interest in RVW I suspect that this is the recording I would recommend to them. Personally it was the Theme of Thomas Tallis as well as The Lark Ascending that introduced me to RVW decades ago and I will never forget the experience. This recording reminds me of those moments in my life. Serene beauty indeed!

[asin] B00OU4J42W[/asin]

This is the type of recommendation that somehow always costs me money.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on June 21, 2015, 10:24:20 PM
Quote from: Christo on June 21, 2015, 09:34:58 PM
This is the type of recommendation that somehow always costs me money.  ;D

I'm always happy to oblige!  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 30, 2015, 04:39:36 AM
Dutton have released a CD featuring the 1920 version of 'A London Symphony' which incorporates several minutes of beautiful, poetic music (especially just before the epilogue at the end) which, as far as I am concerned Vaughan Williams was mistaken to excise in 1936. He actually cut out the most moving part of the symphony. Boult, Bernard Herrmann and Arnold Bax shared the same view but could not change the composer's mind. So did Richard Hickox when I spoke to him briefly when I asked him to sign my programme after he gave the first performance of the 1913 version for about 80 years. The 1920 version was recorded once before by Eugene Goossens with the Cincinnati SO during World War Two. The new recording is linked with the two piano version of the craggy Piano Concerto. Together with Rootham's Second Symphony this has to be one of my CDs of the year and I can't wait to receive it:

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7322
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2015, 04:42:43 AM
Fascinating, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 30, 2015, 04:47:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2015, 04:42:43 AM
Fascinating, Jeffrey.

Thanks Karl,
If you don't know the 1920 version you must hear it - this looks such a great disc and great coupling too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 17, 2015, 10:19:19 AM
Great to see the great BBC Proms performance of Sancta Civitas with the Hallé forces under Mark Elder of early this Month on Youtube already. BTW, here's the Guardian review too: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/31/halle-elder-review-impressive-revival-of-vaughan-williams-neglected-oratorio

https://www.youtube.com/v/BUk4UY7yVmc
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Peter Power Pop on September 08, 2015, 12:32:05 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on June 21, 2015, 01:15:56 PM
Vaughan Williams:
Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
Pastoral Symphony
Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus
Overture: The Wasps

Hallé Orchestra/Elder


Marvelous! Elder and his Hallé forces really bring an eloquent sweetness to the Pastoral Symphony. I have become more fond of Elder's recordings the more I listen to them. This disc is overall stunning in both compilation and execution seemingly encompassing numerous aspects of the warmth and serenity RVW encompassed in his compositions. If any friends of mine showed interest in RVW I suspect that this is the recording I would recommend to them. Personally it was the Theme of Thomas Tallis as well as The Lark Ascending that introduced me to RVW decades ago and I will never forget the experience. This recording reminds me of those moments in my life. Serene beauty indeed!

[asin] B00OU4J42W[/asin]

The album is on Spotify if anyone wants to hear it:

Vaughan Williams: Pastoral Symphony (Hallé / Mark Elder) (https://play.spotify.com/album/6oh3zPBUxUYXxuKC2IfDKk)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 08, 2015, 06:13:01 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 17, 2015, 10:19:19 AM
Great to see the great BBC Proms performance of Sancta Civitas with the Hallé forces under Mark Elder of early this Month on Youtube already. BTW, here's the Guardian review too: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/31/halle-elder-review-impressive-revival-of-vaughan-williams-neglected-oratorio

https://www.youtube.com/v/BUk4UY7yVmc
Thank you for posting this. What a wonderful performance of Vaughan Williams's greatest choral work (certainly his own favourite) and one of his greatest works. I'm sorry that I missed this Prom. I have heard it live before, a few years ago, in the church in Hove, East Sussex where Vaughan Williams married his first wife Adeline. It was a wonderful experience to hear it life. It certainly does provide a glimpse through the 'magic casements'.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on September 10, 2015, 09:59:22 AM
I'm going to have to listen to that again. It's included in my emi box set. So far,I have to admit that it's not one of my favourite works by VW! Tut..tut,I fear?!! I must admit,Flos Campi,Five Tudor Portraits and his Mass are more my cup of tea. I think the Mass is absolutely sublime and one of the most beautiful choral works I have ever heard. Five Tudor Portraits is one of those works you listen to and think,why isn't it performed more? At least,I do! I saw a review that compared the first part to Orff's Carmina Burana! It certainly is a piece of music to listen to if you think English choral works are all very serious and filled with cherubic,wide eyed choir boys! Indeed,I acquired a s/h cassette recording of Orff's Carmina Burana a couple of months ago. I hadn't heard it for years. I must say,I wasn't very excited by it! Give me Five Tudor Portraits over Carmina,any day!

Choral works aside. I have just been listening to Henry Wood's performance of the London Symphony. I enjoyed this performance very much indeed,and,unless you are particularly averse to ancient old mono recordings,I honestly think this is one of the finest recordings I have heard. It is a lively recording,full of poetry and atmosphere,and Wood's grasp of the structure of the work really gripped me and kept me listening. I also liked his performance of the Fantasia on Greensleeves. I have seen this performance derided for being taken at too fast a lick. It certainly is the fastest one I have ever heard;but for my money it works. One reviewer describing it as dance like. I wouldn't want to hear this approach every time;but it works here,and is a refreshing change (albeit of 30's vintage) from the usual dreamy,pastoral approach. I love it. On the cd-r I made yesterday,I actually placed this work first. I feel it makes a more suitable curtain raiser to the main work than the Serenade to Music. I placed that as a follow up;not because I don't like it........indeed,I love it;but because of the way the music steals in so beautifully after the closing bars of the symphony. The performance of the Serenade is truly ravishing. Glorious music making!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 10, 2015, 12:52:09 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 10, 2015, 09:59:22 AM
I'm going to have to listen to that again. It's included in my emi box set. So far,I have to admit that it's not one of my favourite works by VW! Tut..tut,I fear?!! I must admit,Flos Campi,Five Tudor Portraits and his Mass are more my cup of tea. I think the Mass is absolutely sublime and one of the most beautiful choral works I have ever heard. Five Tudor Portraits is one of those works you listen to and think,why isn't it performed more? At least,I do! I saw a review that compared the first part to Orff's Carmina Burana! It certainly is a piece of music to listen to if you think English choral works are all very serious and filled with cherubic,wide eyed choir boys! Indeed,I acquired a s/h cassette recording of Orff's Carmina Burana a couple of months ago. I hadn't heard it for years. I must say,I wasn't very excited by it! Give me Five Tudor Portraits over Carmina,any day!

Choral works aside. I have just been listening to Henry Wood's performance of the London Symphony. I enjoyed this performance very much indeed,and,unless you are particularly averse to ancient old mono recordings,I honestly think this is one of the finest recordings I have heard. It is a lively recording,full of poetry and atmosphere,and Wood's grasp of the structure of the work really gripped me and kept me listening. I also liked his performance of the Fantasia on Greensleeves. I have seen this performance derided for being taken at too fast a lick. It certainly is the fastest one I have ever heard;but for my money it works. One reviewer describing it as dance like. I wouldn't want to hear this approach every time;but it works here,and is a refreshing change (albeit of 30's vintage) from the usual dreamy,pastoral approach. I love it. On the cd-r I made yesterday,I actually placed this work first. I feel it makes a more suitable curtain raiser to the main work than the Serenade to Music. I placed that as a follow up;not because I don't like it........indeed,I love it;but because of the way the music steals in so beautifully after the closing bars of the symphony. The performance of the Serenade is truly ravishing. Glorious music making!
Am listening to the Wood version of 'A London Symphony' now - I agree that it is a deeply felt and poetic performance; thank you for reminding us of its qualities. The 2001 Dutton CD is very good indeed. It is probably the only recording of the 1936 version of 'A London Symphony' (maybe together with Previn's marvellous RCA version) that I shall listen to from now on as I much prefer the 1920 version (there is a new recording of this too on Dutton) as for some mad reason Vaughan Williams excised the best and most moving bit of the symphony (at the start of the Epilogue) in 1936 and I am now acutely aware of its absence whenever I hear the 1936 revision. There is a fine Goossens Cincinatti SO version of the 1920 version, recorded in the Second World War. The 'Serenade to Music' is one of my least favourite works by Vaughan Williams but I am aware that I am in the minority here. There is something rather cloying and self-congratulatory about it which I find uncharacteristic of Vaughan Williams. Others will disagree.
Wood's 'London Symphony' is terrific however and I really liked the dance-like,  unsentimental version of the ubiquitous 'Greensleeves' too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on September 11, 2015, 02:39:22 AM
 ;D Funny,thing. I just thought,now. What was I saying? " I love it!" ??!! I don't usually care too much for the Serenade,either. I think I just enjoyed it after hearing the Henry Wood London Symphony. Either,I enjoyed his recording of the Symphony so much it put me in an especially good and receptive mood for the Serenade;or,having the Serenade placed last,means you don't have to sit through the blinking thing first?!! I do think that Greensleeves makes a better curtain raiser,though....and shorter!
Or why not just jettison the annoying Serenade from the cd-r and enjoy Greensleeves and the Symphony without it?!! ;D
I don't usually like allot of Dutton's own label transfers of old recordings (too much intervention,for me!) but this one is very good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 11, 2015, 03:57:43 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 11, 2015, 02:39:22 AM
;D Funny,thing. I just thought,now. What was I saying? " I love it!" ??!! I don't usually care too much for the Serenade,either. I think I just enjoyed it after hearing the Henry Wood London Symphony. Either,I enjoyed his recording of the Symphony so much it put me in an especially good and receptive mood for the Serenade;or,having the Serenade placed last,means you don't have to sit through the blinking thing first?!! I do think that Greensleeves makes a better curtain raiser,though....and shorter!
Or why not just jettison the annoying Serenade from the cd-r and enjoy Greensleeves and the Symphony without it?!! ;D
I don't usually like allot of Dutton's own label transfers of old recordings (too much intervention,for me!) but this one is very good.
Most VW fans rate the Serenade very highly. There was quite a strong reaction when I suicidally expressed much the same view in the Journal of the RVW Society.  8)
Do you know the 1920 version of A London Symphony? I'd be interested to hear your views on it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 11, 2015, 04:21:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 11, 2015, 03:57:43 AM
Most VW fans rate the Serenade very highly. There was quite a strong reaction when I suicidally expressed much the same view in the Journal of the RVW Society.  8)

"Traitor!  Here's a service revolver: you know what to do.  Nice knowing you, old man."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 11, 2015, 04:29:39 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 11, 2015, 02:39:22 AMI don't usually care too much for the Serenade,either.

Quote from: vandermolen on September 11, 2015, 03:57:43 AMThere was quite a strong reaction when I suicidally expressed much the same view in the Journal of the RVW Society.  8)


(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/1408.gif)                                  cilgwyn

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/1408.gif)                                  vandermolen 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 11, 2015, 05:09:53 AM
Perhaps, Sarge, they only mean that in comparison to the Serenades of Britten or Schoenberg, RVW's is less striking  8)  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on September 11, 2015, 05:13:33 AM
I must say I try to take an even-tempered approach to others' musical tastes as I hope they would do onto mine.  But not liking VW's Serenade to Music is beyond the pale!  :o  I regard it not so much a musical composition as I do an important internal organ situated close to my heart and functioning similarly both biologically and metaphorically.  And I would venture to say as well that the work meant so much to VW himself - both because he was inordinately proud of it and because it was his own heartfelt homage to the art form - that any VW fan who sez they do not like it is no VW fan.  Are you not moved with concord of sweet sound?  Well, then you can't be trusted.  I implore you to seek out a performance you like and allow the sounds of music creep in your ears until soft stillness and the night become the touches of sweet harmony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 11, 2015, 05:23:19 AM
OMG  :o :o :o

The reaction in the RVW Journal was quite tame in comparison with you lot. I don't know what to say.

Well, I don't mind the orchestral version so much.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on September 11, 2015, 05:38:18 AM
C'mon, vandermolen.  Repent!  There's still time to save your soul!! 0:) :laugh:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 11, 2015, 05:44:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 11, 2015, 05:23:19 AM
OMG  :o :o :o

The reaction in the RVW Journal was quite tame in comparison with you lot. I don't know what to say.

Well, I don't mind the orchestral version so much.  :)

I admire your fortitude, Jeffrey!  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 11, 2015, 09:43:01 AM
I picked up Slatkin's 3+4 the other day. On first listening, I think it's really, really good - very energetic and powerful in the 4th, and nicely flowing in the Pastoral. Excellent playing by the Philharmonia too.

His cycle gets generally good reviews, so I'm not surprised. (haven't heard any of the other installments)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 12, 2015, 12:18:46 AM
I'm keen to steer the discussion away from the 'Serenade to Music' in view of hysterical reactions above.  8)

Yes, the Slatkin series is good although symphonies 5 and 6 were a bit disappointing in the cycle. The CD with 8,9 and 'Flourish for Glorious John [Barbirolli]' is excellent. I saw him conduct Symphony 9 live in London and it was really good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 12, 2015, 02:34:14 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 11, 2015, 09:43:01 AM
I picked up Slatkin's 3+4 the other day. On first listening, I think it's really, really good

Yes, Slatkin's Fourth is excellent.  I also like his Sea Symphony (tremendous organ presence).

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 12, 2015, 09:58:29 AM
Re the Serenade to Music, I agree with its own key message (from Act V, Scene 1 of The Merchant of Venice):

The man that hath no passion for this Serenade,
Nor is not deeply mov'd with its concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night
And his affections dark as Erebus:
Let no such man be trusted.   >:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 12, 2015, 01:05:48 PM
Quote from: Christo on September 12, 2015, 09:58:29 AM
Re the Serenade to Music, I agree with its own key message (from Act V, Scene 1 of The Merchant of Venice):

The man that hath no passion for this Serenade,
Nor is not deeply mov'd with its concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night
And his affections dark as Erebus:
Let no such man be trusted.   >:D

8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 13, 2015, 11:27:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 12, 2015, 02:34:14 AM
  I also like his Sea Symphony (tremendous organ presence).


This is the one VW symphony that I can't fall in love with, for some reason. I've YouTubed it a few times, and it comes across as bloated and overblown. Maybe I should get an actual recording of the piece and concentrate on it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 13, 2015, 01:36:11 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 13, 2015, 11:27:23 AM
This is the one VW symphony that I can't fall in love with, for some reason. I've YouTubed it a few times, and it comes across as bloated and overblown. Maybe I should get an actual recording of the piece and concentrate on it.
This remained a blind spot for me for decades until I heard Bernard Haitink's recording (which is the one I recommend). Now I find it to be a deeply moving work although the best music is definitely in the finale.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 13, 2015, 01:50:33 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 13, 2015, 11:27:23 AM
This is the one VW symphony that I can't fall in love with, for some reason. I've YouTubed it a few times, and it comes across as bloated and overblown. Maybe I should get an actual recording of the piece and concentrate on it.

Sorry, I can't help you. Whenever anyone uses the adjectives bloated and overblown to describe some of my favorite music, I realize we are talking in completely different languages and there is no sense in continuing the conversation  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 13, 2015, 02:31:53 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 13, 2015, 01:36:11 PM
This remained a blind spot for me for decades until I heard Bernard Haitink's recording (which is the one I recommend).

I had the good fortune (assisted by Harry) that this was, in fact, the first I heard the piece, and I was enchanted straight off.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 13, 2015, 02:51:44 PM
Sounds like Haitink's a good choice. Or Slatkin, if I want "tremendous organ presence" (but how important is the organ throughout?).

Reading around, Boult seems to be a highly-regarded classic performance. Am curious about Spano/Atlanta, any1 heard that one?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 13, 2015, 03:08:29 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 13, 2015, 02:51:44 PM
Sounds like Haitink's a good choice. Or Slatkin, if I want "tremendous organ presence" (but how important is the organ throughout?).

Reading around, Boult seems to be a highly-regarded classic performance. Am curious about Spano/Atlanta, any1 heard that one?

Haven't heard Spano...but my top three are Haitink, Boult (Decca) and Slatkin.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 13, 2015, 05:36:36 PM
Turns out there's a brand new recording of it by Mark Elder. Anyone heard it? Behold a rave review:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/what-to-listen-to/vaughan-williams-sea-symphony-review/
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on September 13, 2015, 08:40:05 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 13, 2015, 05:36:36 PM
Turns out there's a brand new recording of it by Mark Elder. Anyone heard it? Behold a rave review:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/what-to-listen-to/vaughan-williams-sea-symphony-review/

It's hard to imagine the Haitink recording can be topped, however I'm such a fan of this work. It really speaks to me so I must check out this new recording. The reviews are consistently strong.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 13, 2015, 10:34:42 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 13, 2015, 03:08:29 PM
Haven't heard Spano...but my top three are Haitink, Boult (Decca) and Slatkin.

Sarge

These are all good choices although sadly none of them are coupled with that great masterpiece 'Serenade to Music' hahaha   :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on September 14, 2015, 03:47:16 AM
By the way,which is your favourite recording of the 'Serenade',vandermolen? ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2015, 03:55:08 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 14, 2015, 03:47:16 AM
By the way,which is your favourite recording of the 'Serenade',vandermolen? ;D

Surgically done, sir  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 14, 2015, 08:27:02 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 14, 2015, 03:47:16 AM
By the way,which is your favourite recording of the 'Serenade',vandermolen? ;D
This one - orchestral only version - no singing. 8)
[asin]B00000IYN1[/asin]
Or this one:
[asin]B00004TQQ6[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on September 14, 2015, 08:35:43 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 11, 2015, 09:43:01 AM
I picked up Slatkin's 3+4 the other day. On first listening, I think it's really, really good - very energetic and powerful in the 4th, and nicely flowing in the Pastoral. Excellent playing by the Philharmonia too.

His cycle gets generally good reviews, so I'm not surprised. (haven't heard any of the other installments)

I enjoy the Slatkin 3rd and 4th also, courtesy of Monkey Greg's gift.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 14, 2015, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 14, 2015, 08:27:02 AM
This one - orchestral only version - no singing. 8)

Compared with the original, the orchestra-only version is IMHO, as Abraham Lincoln famously stated, as thin as the homeopathic soup that was made by boiling the shadow of a pigeon that had starved to death.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2015, 08:50:46 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 14, 2015, 08:44:43 AM
Compared with the original, the orchestra-only version is IMHO, as Abraham Lincoln famously stated, as thin as the homeopathic soup that was made by boiling the shadow of a pigeon that had starved to death.  8)

That is wonderful.  Disappointing, but wonderful  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 14, 2015, 10:37:48 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 14, 2015, 08:44:43 AM
Compared with the original, the orchestra-only version is IMHO, as Abraham Lincoln famously stated, as thin as the homeopathic soup that was made by boiling the shadow of a pigeon that had starved to death.  8)

:)

Probably like Copland's 'Lincoln Portrait' without the narration.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on September 18, 2015, 07:37:26 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 13, 2015, 10:34:42 PM
These are all good choices although sadly none of them are coupled with that great masterpiece 'Serenade to Music' hahaha   :P
I hate to extend this any further >:D ;D......but I think my next cd-r of Henry Wood's recordings of VW may involve an un-coupling of the aforementioned 'Serenade'! :( ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 18, 2015, 10:08:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 18, 2015, 07:37:26 AM
I hate to extend this any further >:D ;D......but I think my next cd-r of Henry Wood's recordings of VW may involve an un-coupling of the aforementioned 'Serenade'! :( ;D
Good of you to start it all up again - no doubt it will all kick off again any moment. Sarge and Karl will be apoplectic with rage.  8) >:D :)
They will have to play 'Serenade to Music' to calm down.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 18, 2015, 10:19:30 AM
Oh, you haven't seen me enraged, dear fellow.

(Come to think of it, I may not have much of a talent for rage, any longer . . . .)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 18, 2015, 02:03:38 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 18, 2015, 10:19:30 AM
Oh, you haven't seen me enraged, dear fellow.

(Come to think of it, I may not have much of a talent for rage, any longer . . . .)
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2015, 02:19:44 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 18, 2015, 07:37:26 AMbut I think my next cd-r of Henry Wood's recordings of VW may involve an un-coupling of the aforementioned 'Serenade'! :( ;D

Quote from: vandermolen on September 18, 2015, 10:08:24 AM
Good of you to start it all up again - no doubt it will all kick off again any moment. Sarge and Karl will be apoplectic with rage.  8) >:D :)
They will have to play 'Serenade to Music' to calm down.  8)

Yeah, listen to the Serenade...or...bring out the six-barrel Minigun (since the bazooka didn't work last time).


(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/14_6_12.gif)           cilgwyn
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2015, 01:03:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2015, 02:19:44 PM
Yeah, listen to the Serenade...or...bring out the six-barrel Minigun (since the bazooka didn't work last time).


(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/14_6_12.gif)           cilgwyn
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Peter Power Pop on September 19, 2015, 11:58:18 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 13, 2015, 05:36:36 PM
Turns out there's a brand new recording of it [A Sea Symphony] by Mark Elder. Anyone heard it? Behold a rave review:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/what-to-listen-to/vaughan-williams-sea-symphony-review/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/what-to-listen-to/vaughan-williams-sea-symphony-review/)

It's on Spotify:

Vaughan Williams: A Sea Symphony (Hallé / Mark Elder) (https://play.spotify.com/album/3kCeWVKuwuh9NrT8lhIGgm)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/814Xu0oRzAL._SL1500_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81TxGs4%2B3UL._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on October 22, 2015, 07:25:44 AM
Finally found a copy of the Israeli all-Vaughan Williams CD that I saw in Tel Aviv, back in 1996, but didn't buy then. Always very refreshing to hear a less 'English' interpretation of these pieces; even the lark takes a slightly different flight on Zina Schiff's violon. BTW this is the only 'other' extant recording of the string orchestra version of the Charterhouse Suite (1920) with its delicious and often very delicate (Rondo) themes. Not better than the Naxos/Lloyd-Jones, perhaps, but a welcome alternative:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/812pqKvM7KL._SX355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 22, 2015, 03:33:29 PM
Quote from: Christo on October 22, 2015, 07:25:44 AM
Finally found a copy of the Israeli all-Vaughan Williams CD that I saw in Tel Aviv, back in 1996, but didn't buy then. Always very refreshing to hear a less 'English' interpretation of these pieces; even the lark takes a slightly different flight on Zina Schiff's violon. BTW this is the only 'other' extant recording of the string orchestra version of the Charterhouse Suite (1920) with its delicious and often very delicate (Rondo) themes. Not better than the Naxos/Lloyd-Jones, perhaps, but a welcome alternative:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/812pqKvM7KL._SX355_.jpg)

The Concerto Accademico is on there as well I see. Excellent. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on October 23, 2015, 03:29:23 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 13, 2015, 02:51:44 PM
Sounds like Haitink's a good choice. Or Slatkin, if I want "tremendous organ presence" (but how important is the organ throughout?).
Reading around, Boult seems to be a highly-regarded classic performance. Am curious about Spano/Atlanta, any1 heard that one?

The Sea Symphony was this?  I think Elder has supplanted Haitink for me.  But I do very much like Spano as well - it's very, er, different - consistently quicker tempi than any of the others mentioned here - a no-nonsense, dare I say it Toscanini-like approach, antidote to 'overblown'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 21, 2015, 01:13:22 AM
Just a plug for the Marco Polo CD of Vaughan Williams's film music. It features in the 'BBC Top 1000 Classical CDs' book and deservedly so in my opinion, especially for the 'Story of a Flemish Farm' music with its echoes of Symphony 6. Of course there are the very fine Chandos releases on the VW film music on three CDs which are wonderful but the Andrew Penny recordings are the best single CD release of the film music. If the photo appears below it has a totally inappropriate image of a painting by Seurat - the actual CD has a still from one of the movies on the front which is much more appropriate (note that I have used 'film' and 'movie' alternatively so that our British and American readers know what I am on about).  8)
[asin]B00000462L[/asin]
I think that this will have an appeal beyond collectors of film music. It is certainly one of the most enjoyable Vaughan Williams CDs.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scion7 on November 21, 2015, 04:42:41 AM
Story of a Flemish Farm .......

SEE! A farmer plant his cabbage!
WATCH! As the crop is harvested!
SMELL! As kids all over the village run from the stench of cooking cabbage!
LAUGH! As Mirror Image is strapped to his high-chair and force-fed boiled cabbage by his well-meaning mommy.

I've never heard of this movie.  :)   Off to IMDB . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scion7 on November 21, 2015, 04:45:21 AM
OKAY - I saw this many times back home in England before emmigrating.  Forgot the title "The Flemish Farm."  Don't remember the soundtrack.  Off to find a net-worthy copy.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 21, 2015, 06:58:10 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on November 21, 2015, 04:42:41 AM
Story of a Flemish Farm .......

SEE! A farmer plant his cabbage!
WATCH! As the crop is harvested!
SMELL! As kids all over the village run from the stench of cooking cabbage!
LAUGH! As Mirror Image is strapped to his high-chair and force-fed boiled cabbage by his well-meaning mommy.

I've never heard of this movie.  :)   Off to IMDB . . .

:P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 21, 2015, 07:19:21 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on November 21, 2015, 04:42:41 AM
Story of a Flemish Farm .......

SEE! A farmer plant his cabbage!
WATCH! As the crop is harvested!
SMELL! As kids all over the village run from the stench of cooking cabbage!
LAUGH! As Mirror Image is strapped to his high-chair and force-fed boiled cabbage by his well-meaning mommy.

I've never heard of this movie.  :)   Off to IMDB . . .
Hilarious  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scion7 on November 21, 2015, 10:07:03 AM
(http://s30.postimg.org/jxr8gpg01/CREDITS_Rafe.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 21, 2015, 12:56:15 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on November 21, 2015, 10:07:03 AM
(http://s30.postimg.org/jxr8gpg01/CREDITS_Rafe.jpg)
Nice images. Two discarded themes from the film were used in the 6th Symphony. 'Dead Man's Kit' and 'The Major Goes to Face his Fate' were highlights of the score for me. I have never seen the movie.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JZvxUpnQ4vI

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b9iZSRzCAbw

Goodness, there is a DVD of the film  :o. £3.99 on Amazon UK - have just ordered a copy.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on December 08, 2015, 05:14:18 AM
I've just purchased a copy of this book by Keith Alldritt but not read it yet. Has anyone else read it? It seems a long time since there was a RVW biography (not sure if the effort by Simon Heffer counts?)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Composer-Patriot-Biography/dp/0719809371/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449583749&sr=1-1&keywords=Vaughan+Williams (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Composer-Patriot-Biography/dp/0719809371/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449583749&sr=1-1&keywords=Vaughan+Williams)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2015, 12:32:19 AM
Quote from: Oates on December 08, 2015, 05:14:18 AM
I've just purchased a copy of this book by Keith Alldritt but not read it yet. Has anyone else read it? It seems a long time since there was a RVW biography (not sure if the effort by Simon Heffer counts?)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Composer-Patriot-Biography/dp/0719809371/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449583749&sr=1-1&keywords=Vaughan+Williams (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Composer-Patriot-Biography/dp/0719809371/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449583749&sr=1-1&keywords=Vaughan+Williams)
I have this too and have only browsed through it as it's officially a Christmas present. It looks good and at least deals with his long affair with Ursula which was largely ignored in the earlier 'court' biographies, both of which by Ursula herself and Michael Kennedy, in particular, are invaluable. The Kennedy one is about the music and is excellent but he was a friend of the composer's too. Ursula's was interesting but read a bit like Vaughan Williams's desk diary. The two TV documentaries which came out a few years ago dealt much more directly with his romantic attachments and relationship with his first wife Adeline who gets a bit ignored, despite the fact that they were married for over 50 years! The Heffer book is ok as a basic introduction but told me nothing that I did not already know about Vaughan Williams.

PS Welcome to the forum.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 14, 2016, 02:45:15 AM
I've been playing for some weeks now the 1938 'masque for dancing' The Bridal Day, referring back to the sensuality of Flos Campi (1925) - about the only other piece in his oeuvre referring doing that, in fact - and also foreshadowing the nostalgia to come of An Oxford Elegy (1952). Did anyone hear it in the meantime?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51o-No0hw3L.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/816xVmK2iaL._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 14, 2016, 09:07:53 AM
Epithalamion is a beautiful and underrated work - one of my favourites.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 20, 2016, 06:59:36 AM
I see now that Martin Yates repeated the same trick with Vaughan Williams he did before with i.a. Moeran's Second and Arnell's Seventh. Did anyone hear the results already?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/8189SlDmzdL._SL1210_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81BWvvI6dvL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 20, 2016, 11:33:25 AM
Still waiting for it to arrive. I'm looking forward to hearing the Henry V music which I like very much in the version for brass band. I think that VW advised Walton in the latter's film music for Henry V which is one of my all time favourite scores.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 24, 2016, 03:05:34 PM
Quote from: Christo on March 20, 2016, 06:59:36 AM
I see now that Martin Yates repeated the same trick with Vaughan Williams he did before with i.a. Moeran's Second and Arnell's Seventh. Did anyone hear the results already?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/8189SlDmzdL._SL1210_.jpg)
The new CD is pleasant enough but, in my opinion, nothing special. The orchestral excerpts from 'Sir John in Love' are a bit too 'hey-nonny-no' for my liking although the later movements are more interesting and one even reminded me momentarily of 'The Swan of Tuonela' by Sibelius. I think this music would appeal to anyone who (unlike myself) enjoys the incidental music to 'The Wasps' and it also includes the ubiquitous 'Greensleeves'. The orchestral version of 'Henry V' was my favourite track on the CD but even this didn't add to the brass only version on Chandos. Unlike nearly all other admirers of the composer I have never liked the 'Serenade to Music' which I have always found rather cloying and, in its vocal version' uncharacteristically self-congratulatory. I actually prefer the orchestral only version recorded here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 24, 2016, 03:38:02 PM
I was wondering about that disc, Jeffrey. IMHO there's too many "realizations or orchestrated by Martin Yates" and not enough RVW meat. Serenade To Music aside, this disc doesn't seem worthwhile. Thanks for taking one for the team. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 24, 2016, 03:53:23 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 24, 2016, 03:38:02 PM
I was wondering about that disc, Jeffrey. IMHO there's too many "realizations or orchestrated by Martin Yates" and not enough RVW meat. Serenade To Music aside, this disc doesn't seem worthwhile. Thanks for taking one for the team. ;)
Always my pleasure John although others may enjoy this more that I did.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on March 31, 2016, 05:57:04 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 20, 2016, 06:59:36 AM
I see now that Martin Yates repeated the same trick with Vaughan Williams he did before with i.a. Moeran's Second and Arnell's Seventh. Did anyone hear the results already?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/8189SlDmzdL._SL1210_.jpg)

Dutton and Albion are really trying to present 'new' RVW material from a variety of sources and I can understand and appreciate their efforts - but there's not likely to be any undiscovered masterpieces at this stage in the game. I personally find a heavily 'edited' or 'reconstructed' score being brought to CD better than nothing at all, and I take it in that spirit. It's either that or this year's star violinist having a crack at The Lark Ascending for its 742nd outing on record...

Talking of which, aren't we due for a name conductor to embark on another cycle of symphony recordings?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 31, 2016, 06:08:11 AM
Quote from: Oates on March 31, 2016, 05:57:04 AM
Dutton and Albion are really trying to present 'new' RVW material from a variety of sources and I can understand and appreciate their efforts - but there's not likely to be any undiscovered masterpieces at this stage in the game. I personally find a heavily 'edited' or 'reconstructed' score being brought to CD better than nothing at all, and I take it in that spirit. It's either that or this year's star violinist having a crack at The Lark Ascending for its 742nd outing on record...

Talking of which, aren't we due for a name conductor to embark on another cycle of symphony recordings?

I agree. Andrew Manze is actually in the midst of a symphony cycle on the Onyx label.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 31, 2016, 01:27:11 PM
Quote from: Oates on March 31, 2016, 05:57:04 AM
Dutton and Albion are really trying to present 'new' RVW material from a variety of sources and I can understand and appreciate their efforts - but there's not likely to be any undiscovered masterpieces at this stage in the game. I personally find a heavily 'edited' or 'reconstructed' score being brought to CD better than nothing at all, and I take it in that spirit. It's either that or this year's star violinist having a crack at The Lark Ascending for its 742nd outing on record...

Fully agreed, and I'm happy with any of them. BTW the recent Albion release of The Bridal Day does bring us something new and even partly 'revelationary', as a missing link between Flos Campi (the only other RVW composition to share some of that piece's mysticism) and An Oxford Elegy, yet also an original composition on its own feet and a real addition to the catalogue.

There are a few gaps left for Dutton and Albion to fill in: Some more early compositions: Pan's Anniversary (1905), The Future (1908) and the incidental music to The Merry Wives of Windsor (1913), Richard II (1913), Henry IV (1913), Richard III (1913), Henry V (1913), The Devil's Disciple (1913)

Also, I heard Australian conductor Kynan Johns conduct the Limburg SO in Maastricht (here on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uNexM9PlCI - recommended!) the orchestral version of On Christmas Night (1926), that I like more than the choral version on Chandos; hope Dutton will offer us one too.  ;) And of course I hope for the The Abinger Pageant (1934, a cooperation with E.M. Forster!): http://www.stjameschurchabinger.org/Abinger-Pageant.ashx
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 01, 2016, 06:06:11 AM
Waiting for the sequel:  The Fat Knight Rises
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 01, 2016, 06:06:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 01, 2016, 06:06:11 AM
Waiting for the sequel:  The Fat Knight Rises

Zing! ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 02, 2016, 12:42:44 AM
Epithalamion is one of VW's most underrated and poetic works. I would like to see a new recording of the late 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' - one of those quirky, craggy VW works which appeal to me. Maybe the unusual combination of orchestra, piano and chorus makes it uneconomical to perform or record. I had an email exchange with Peter Katin, the pianist on the one and only recording (Warner/EMI) who said that the piano part was quite difficult. The CD below is one of my VW favourites:
[asin]B00005Q2X8[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 02, 2016, 12:56:32 PM
Talking of unusual VW works, I see Radio 3 (UK) has this on its schedule for next Friday

Vaughan Williams: Four Last Songs orch Payne Jennifer Johnston (mezzo-soprano)
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Martyn Brabbins (conductor)

I have never heard of this work, does anyone know anything about it? who are the words by?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 02, 2016, 01:15:43 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 02, 2016, 12:56:32 PM
Talking of unusual VW works, I see Radio 3 (UK) has this on its schedule for next Friday

Vaughan Williams: Four Last Songs orch Payne Jennifer Johnston (mezzo-soprano)
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Martyn Brabbins (conductor)

I have never heard of this work, does anyone know anything about it? who are the words by?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Last_Songs_(Vaughan_Williams)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 02, 2016, 09:15:13 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 03, 2016, 06:30:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 02, 2016, 12:42:44 AM
Epithalamion is one of VW's most underrated and poetic works. I would like to see a new recording of the late 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' - one of those quirky, craggy VW works which appeal to me. Maybe the unusual combination of orchestra, piano and chorus makes it uneconomical to perform or record. I had an email exchange with Peter Katin, the pianist on the one and only recording (Warner/EMI) who said that the piano part was quite difficult. The CD below is one of my VW favourites:
[asin]B00005Q2X8[/asin]

That is a great 2-CD set, Jeffrey. Boult was such a master in RVW. Boult's last recording of Job is still one that is very special to me and I've held dear the memory of this unforgettable listening experience.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 03, 2016, 08:20:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 03, 2016, 06:30:23 AM
That is a great 2-CD set, Jeffrey. Boult was such a master in RVW. Boult's last recording of Job is still one that is very special to me and I've held dear the memory of this unforgettable listening experience.
Thanks John  :)
I have four ( ::)) CD versions of Boult conducting Job on Everest,Decca and two on EMI (now Warner) including your favourite version. Come to think of it I have a fifth version on Intaglio of a live concert I attended on 12th October 1972 on Vaughan Williams's 100th birthday in London, which was the first time I heard the work - I was still at school (meaning 'High School' I think as I have a feeling that in the USA 'school' can mean university which is not the case here). Anyway, I was 17 at the time and in my wide-eyed earliest enthusiasm for the music of Vaughan Williams. Following the concert I rushed out to buy the LP of the work on EMI - your favourite version. Yes, it is a marvellous work and indicative of some of the stormy works to follow.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 03, 2016, 09:36:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 03, 2016, 08:20:44 AM
Thanks John  :)
I have four ( ::)) CD versions of Boult conducting Job on Everest,Decca and two on EMI (now Warner) including your favourite version. Come to think of it I have a fifth version on Intaglio of a live concert I attended on 12th October 1972 on Vaughan Williams's 100th birthday in London, which was the first time I heard the work - I was still at school (meaning 'High School' I think as I have a feeling that in the USA 'school' can mean university which is not the case here). Anyway, I was 17 at the time and in my wide-eyed earliest enthusiasm for the music of Vaughan Williams. Following the concert I rushed out to buy the LP of the work on EMI - your favourite version. Yes, it is a marvellous work and indicative of some of the stormy works to follow.

Very nice, Jeffrey. I believe I just own three of Boult's Job performances: Decca, Everest, and the later EMI one. It sure is a wonderful work indeed. Do you have a favorite performance of Job?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 03, 2016, 10:53:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 03, 2016, 09:36:39 AM
Very nice, Jeffrey. I believe I just own three of Boult's Job performances: Decca, Everest, and the later EMI one. It sure is a wonderful work indeed. Do you have a favorite performance of Job?
The version you like is as good as any. I also like the Decca and Everest Boult versions. Boult was the dedicatee of Job which was probably why he recorded it so many times but I do think that his recordings have a unique authority and insight. I like the version coupled with the two piano version of the Piano Concerto (Vronsky and Babin) which is my favourite version of that work also:
[asin]B00002DDY9[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 03, 2016, 12:20:57 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 03, 2016, 10:53:07 AM
The version you like is as good as any. I also like the Decca and Everest Boult versions. Boult was the dedicatee of Job which was probably why he recorded it so many times but I do think that his recordings have a unique authority and insight. I like the version coupled with the two piano version of the Piano Concerto (Vronsky and Babin) which is my favourite version of that work also:
[asin]B00002DDY9[/asin]

I agree with every word. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on April 06, 2016, 09:41:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 03, 2016, 08:20:44 AM
Following the concert I rushed out to buy the LP of the work on EMI - your favourite version. Yes, it is a marvellous work and indicative of some of the stormy works to follow.

And an absolute demonstration-quality recording, at that time.  I was a young sound engineer and my colleagues and I were completely blown away when we played this LP - the biggest dynamic I've ever heard on vinyl.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 07, 2016, 11:19:22 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on April 06, 2016, 09:41:13 AM
And an absolute demonstration-quality recording, at that time.  I was a young sound engineer and my colleagues and I were completely blown away when we played this LP - the biggest dynamic I've ever heard on vinyl.
That's really interesting. Even as a 17 year old listening on relatively Lo-Fi equipment I recognised how good the recording quality was and how much depth there was to it. Perhaps they'll reissue it on vinyl!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 09, 2016, 09:32:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 03, 2016, 12:20:57 PM
I agree with every word. :)
Forgot to mention John that this excellent, inexpensive 13 CD Boult Vaughan Williams set includes two versions of 'Job' - the version that you have from 1970, Boult's last recording of the work (fortunately still coupled with the Vronsky/Babin version of the Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra) and also the gramophone premiere recording with the BBC SO from 1946. Both are excellent as you would expect:
[asin]B00B2GYJ3U[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 09, 2016, 06:47:31 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2016, 09:32:40 AM
Forgot to mention John that this excellent, inexpensive 13 CD Boult Vaughan Williams set includes two versions of 'Job' - the version that you have from 1970, Boult's last recording of the work (fortunately still coupled with the Vronsky/Babin version of the Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra) and also the gramophone premiere recording with the BBC SO from 1946. Both are excellent as you would expect:
[asin]B00B2GYJ3U[/asin]

Yeah, Jeffrey. That's the set I own. 8) A great set. Actually, to be even more technical, I have two Boult RVW sets on EMI (gave the older blue one to my dad). Great stuff!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 09, 2016, 11:22:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 09, 2016, 06:47:31 PM
Yeah, Jeffrey. That's the set I own. 8) A great set. Actually, to be even more technical, I have two Boult RVW sets on EMI (gave the older blue one to my dad). Great stuff!
Oh, I see - that's a great set and an inexpensive way of collecting all Boult's EMI VW recordings. You would also enjoy the Everest and Decca versions of 'Job' too conducted by Boult. What do you think of the premiere recording featured in the box John?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2016, 05:43:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2016, 11:22:37 PM
Oh, I see - that's a great set and an inexpensive way of collecting all Boult's EMI VW recordings. You would also enjoy the Everest and Decca versions of 'Job' too conducted by Boult. What do you think of the premiere recording featured in the box John?

Honestly, Jeffrey, I haven't even listened to it as I'm not a fan of historical recordings with antique sound. I know some people overlook tape hiss and so forth, but if there's an abundance of it, which there is in a lot of these types of recordings, then the noise is more of a distraction.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 10, 2016, 07:59:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 10, 2016, 05:43:45 AM
Honestly, Jeffrey, I haven't even listened to it as I'm not a fan of historical recordings with antique sound. I know some people overlook tape hiss and so forth, but if there's an abundance of it, which there is in a lot of these types of recordings, then the noise is more of a distraction.
Fair enough John. As a rule I rather like historical recordings, for the sense of atmosphere but my job has largely involved teaching History so maybe that has something to do with it. I would not want to be without Beecham's famous old Sibelus Symphony 4 or Boult's early Decca Vaughan Williams Symphony 6 for example, Mravinsky's 1930s recording of Shostakovich's Symphony 5 or Koussevitsky's recording of Howard Hanson's Symphony 3.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 11, 2016, 03:00:18 AM
The original version of the Serenade to Music is worthy on its own merits. Additionally, just a blast (in a lit-nerdly way) to hear a musical setting of fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 06, 2016, 12:53:51 AM
Vaughan Williams speaks (includes short film of VW):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DuatN2PrvYY
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 19, 2016, 01:01:44 AM
Although I listen a lot to the 'heavy' doom-laden symphonies like 6 and 9 I have to say that the CD of VW songs I picked up on Amazon UK for under £1.00 is currently one of my favourite Vaughan Williams's CDs and very moving. The very slow rendition of 'Clun' from 'On Wenlock Edge' has moved me more than any other recording - it is an intensely poetic and heartfelt performance and much can be said for the rest of the disc. If the picture doesn't come out I'lll post a link:
[asin]B00002644V[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: mjwal on May 22, 2016, 04:42:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 19, 2016, 01:01:44 AM
Although I listen a lot to the 'heavy' doom-laden symphonies like 6 and 9 I have to say that the CD of VW songs I picked up on Amazon UK for under £1.00 is currently one of my favourite Vaughan Williams's CDs and very moving. The very slow rendition of 'Clun' from 'On Wenlock Edge' has moved me more than any other recording - it is an intensely poetic and heartfelt performance and much can be said for the rest of the disc. If the picture doesn't come out I'lll post a link:
[asin]B00002644V[/asin]

Thanks for that tip, Vandermolen: I blow hot and lukewarm about V-W's symphonies etc but have always loved 'On Wenlock Edge' unreservedly - as I enjoy Rolfe-Johnson's singing as a rule, this was a no-brainer for me and like you I have ordered it from amazon.uk for less than a quid. - As a V-W aficionado, what do you say about the recent Elder/Hallé recording of the 'Sea Symphony'? And which version of the 'Serenade to Music' do you recommend? Boult or Best?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 22, 2016, 05:03:09 AM
Quote from: mjwal on May 22, 2016, 04:42:52 AMwhich version of the 'Serenade to Music' do you recommend?

Haha. The Serenade to Music is about the only RVW composition Vandermolen happens to dislike - as revealed earlier in this thread.  :D My own recommendation would be: the Best,  on Hyperion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 22, 2016, 12:16:08 PM
Quote from: mjwal on May 22, 2016, 04:42:52 AM
Thanks for that tip, Vandermolen: I blow hot and lukewarm about V-W's symphonies etc but have always loved 'On Wenlock Edge' unreservedly - as I enjoy Rolfe-Johnson's singing as a rule, this was a no-brainer for me and like you I have ordered it from amazon.uk for less than a quid. - As a V-W aficionado, what do you say about the recent Elder/Hallé recording of the 'Sea Symphony'? And which version of the 'Serenade to Music' do you recommend? Boult or Best?
I'm sure you'll enjoy that VW disc of songs - it is lovely and fantastic value for under £1.00. Let us know what you think. I only have the Elder version of 'A Pastoral Symphony' which is a wonderful performance - one of the best ever I think along with Previn's RCA recording. Christo is quite right in that I don't like the 'Serenade to Music' and actually I prefer the version without the singing better! (I seem to recall that Christo took a dim view of this  8)). I would go with his advice a get the Matthew Best version on Hyperion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 27, 2016, 06:28:09 AM
Quote from: Christo on May 22, 2016, 05:03:09 AM
Haha. The Serenade to Music is about the only RVW composition Vandermolen happens to dislike - as revealed earlier in this thread.  :D My own recommendation would be: the Best,  on Hyperion.
I don't like 'The Wasps' either.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 27, 2016, 04:47:47 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 27, 2016, 06:28:09 AM
I don't like 'The Wasps' either.  8)

I like the Wasps Suite but pretty much have nothing but disdain for the full work (via an Elder/Halle recording).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2016, 12:56:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 27, 2016, 04:47:47 PM
I like the Wasps Suite but pretty much have nothing but disdain for the full work (via an Elder/Halle recording).
I don't like the overture - the suite has its moments. 'The March Past of the Kitchen Utensils' is a bit like a poor man's 'Sorcerer's Apprentice'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scion7 on May 28, 2016, 02:22:50 AM
(http://cdn.toonvectors.com/images/11/37921/toonvectors-37921-460.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2016, 04:14:39 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on May 28, 2016, 02:22:50 AM
(http://cdn.toonvectors.com/images/11/37921/toonvectors-37921-460.jpg)
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 28, 2016, 05:48:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 28, 2016, 12:56:14 AM
I don't like the overture - the suite has its moments. 'The March Past of the Kitchen Utensils' is a bit like a poor man's 'Sorcerer's Apprentice'.

Well we certainly can't enjoy a composer's (even a composer that's an obvious favorite) entire oeuvre. I'm not a fan of any of RVW's operas, but they do have their moments, but I have a similar feeling about many of his vocal-oriented works. My favorite vocal work from RVW is possibly Five Mystical Songs. I recall this one was rather good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2016, 05:54:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 28, 2016, 05:48:57 AM
Well we certainly can't enjoy a composer's (even a composer that's an obvious favorite) entire oeuvre. I'm not a fan of any of RVW's operas, but they do have their moments, but I have a similar feeling about many of his vocal-oriented works. My favorite vocal work from RVW is possibly Five Mystical Songs. I recall this one was rather good.
The Five Mystical Songs are one of my favourites too - I have been listening to the chamber version (green CD above) but the David Willcocks version is best of all. I don't have much time either for most of the VW operas but, having seen it live twice, I have a feeling that 'The Pilgrim's Progress' might be his greatest work of all. The CD below contains two of his finest choral works in very good performance. Sancta Civitas (not on the CD) is his most beautiful choral work I think and his own favourite:
[asin]B000000AGT[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 28, 2016, 05:59:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 28, 2016, 05:54:26 AM
The Five Mystical Songs are one of my favourites too - I have been listening to the chamber version (green CD above) but the David Willcocks version is best of all. I don't have much time either for most of the VW operas but, having seen it live twice, I have a feeling that 'The Pilgrim's Progress' might be his greatest work of all.

I suppose it also doesn't help that I'm not an opera fan and find the medium, in general, to be a taste that I've never acquired. There are a few notable exceptions with Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle being my favorite opera, but, of course, this opera was an unusual one to begin with and I suppose it's lack of a cast is something that also drew me in (besides the music). I can't say The Pilgrim's Progress did much for me. I mean the actual music itself had some lovely moments (and this is the case with a lot of operas), but I can't get into the singing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 28, 2016, 06:09:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 28, 2016, 05:54:26 AMThe CD below contains two of his finest choral works in very good performance. Sancta Civitas (not on the CD) is his most beautiful choral work I think and his own favourite:
[asin]B000000AGT[/asin]

I don't even own this Thomson recording and I own all of the others. I've run across this recording many times, but just never bought it. I'll keep this recommendation in mind. Thanks, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2016, 06:16:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 28, 2016, 06:09:18 AM
I don't even own this Thomson recording and I own all of the others. I've run across this recording many times, but just never bought it. I'll keep this recommendation in mind. Thanks, Jeffrey.
Opera is a blind spot for me too John. Two exceptions are 'The Pilgrim's Progress' and Mussorgsky's 'Boris Godonov'. The Bryden Thomson CD is available very cheaply on the U.S. Amazon site. It is a great recording of fine performances of two of the composer's greatest choral works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 28, 2016, 02:22:37 PM
I love allot of opera. I'm listening to the 1911 complete pathe recording of Goumod's Faust at the moment.
I find VW's obsession with the Pilgrims Progress quite fascinating. The way it permeates and inspired so much of his music. I bought the Albion release of the radio play of it a couple of weeks ago. I enjoyed it very much. The sound quality didn't spoil my enjoyment. Albion did a good job. Have you heard this,vandermolen (Mirror Image...anybody,here?). I have the earlier Hyperion release with Gielgud as well!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 28, 2016, 02:44:22 PM
Albion records,not Albion who posts here here;although judging by his various posts,I wish he did own a 'record label'!
By the way,I listened to 'The Poisoned Kiss a few months ago and thought it was wonderful. Strange,because I had consigned the cds and inlay/booklet to storage,to save room. Suddenly,there I was taking it out again. It's back on the shelf now,between the 1920's abridged acoustic recording of Hugh the Drover (Pearl cd) and the aforementioned Hyperion ,with Gielgud. I enjoyed it so much I needed a follow up in a similar vein. On went a cd-r of the Handley recording of The Perfect Fool opera. Perfect! :) Funny how something can just click with you suddenly!
Incidentally,the Albion cd of The Pilgrims Progress begins with some Bantock. I remember deciding I would buy the old radio recording of the VW if it ever came out on cd. Suddenly there it was! I thought I would be dead before it got a release!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2016, 11:02:12 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 28, 2016, 02:22:37 PM
I love allot of opera. I'm listening to the 1911 complete pathe recording of Goumod's Faust at the moment.
I find VW's obsession with the Pilgrims Progress quite fascinating. The way it permeates and inspired so much of his music. I bought the Albion release of the radio play of it a couple of weeks ago. I enjoyed it very much. The sound quality didn't spoil my enjoyment. Albion did a good job. Have you heard this,vandermolen (Mirror Image...anybody,here?). I have the earlier Hyperion release with Gielgud as well!
Yes, I have that CD and many other of the Albion releases. My response is the same as yours and I also enjoyed it very much. There is also another version of Pilgrim's Progress music on an old BBC Radio Classics CD coupled with Job:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Dancing-Pilgrims-Progress/dp/B000025BMY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464505651&sr=8-1&keywords=Vaughan+Williams+BBC+radio+classics
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 29, 2016, 01:46:15 AM
Oh no,just when I'd vowed I would not look up any more cds or dvds on Amazon,ebay or Music Magpie!! ??? But thanks vandermolen;I will make a note of that one.  I seem to be amassing Pilgrims Progress inspired music by VW,so,no offence;but I won't look,or try no to look :( ,just yet,or,if it's cheap it will be in the post!!
I prefer the Albion release of the Pilgrims Progress to the Hyperion actually,because it's more complete;but also because Gielgud was less self consciously luvvie in his delivery back then. A wonderful release by Albion. Perfect for late evening listening;and possibly Sunday,as well.
I also recently acquired the Previn recording of the Sinfonia Antartica. I had it on a cassette,but the cd release has taken some tracking down. Along with the Handley/Delius Hassan and the BBCSO Sargent Planets;sellers either ask ridiculous prices (I mean is it a signed copy or what?) or you simply just can't get it;outside of a box,perhaps? As it turned out,I seemed to acquire them all in the space of about one week!!! I actually like the spoken bits at the beginning;although I don't want them on every single recording. I think the Previn and Boult recordings have tremendous atmosphere. I will have to listen to them both again to decide which is the best. On the face of it a simple choice;one in mono,the other stereo. I think it's possible the Boult has the edge? Maybe the mono sounds adds to the feeling of menace;but it also detracts from the sheer sonic splendour of VW's orchestration. Richardson also doesn't sound as ridiculously mannered as Gielgud had got by the time that Hyperion recording of the Pilgrims Progress was made;enjoyable as it,undoubtedly,is. I can't help wondering what actors they would use today in such recordings? I  saw a copy of the hard to get (well it has been!) Dutton cd of Rawsthornes Practical Cats a few weeks ago. I had been enjoying the old emi recording with Donat,but thought I could do with a sonically superior upgrade,as well. Well,I listened to the excerpts of Simon Callow's narration and.........oh dear,I'm definitely sticking to Donat!  Antiquated sound,or not,it's the preciseness of the timing,the crispness of the diction. It just goes to show how sloppy thing have got. Also,Donat's old fashioned,posh clipped accent does add a certain drollness to the verse. Andrew Lloyd Webber eat your heart out,eh?! ;D
Incidentally,the fact that a cd of the radio dramatisation of The pilgrims Progress has been released doesn't actually mean that I'm not dead. But if this is heaven why am I running low on cheese and why is Donald Trump heading for the nomination?!! (I'm far more concerned about the cheese situation,mind! I have it with my soup!! :()
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 29, 2016, 08:31:15 AM
I'm a newbie when it comes to listening Vaughan Williams. I started by listening to A Sea Symphony. A capital work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 29, 2016, 08:33:50 AM
Quote from: Alberich on May 29, 2016, 08:31:15 AM
I'm a newbie when it comes to listening Vaughan Williams. I started by listening to A Sea Symphony. A capital work.

The question is where are you at with RVW now? What have you heard thus far? What works do you enjoy the most?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 29, 2016, 08:41:56 AM
Haven't advanced much. I think I like A Sea Symphony best, and symphony 5 is nice, plus I find it interesting he dedicated it to Sibelius.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 29, 2016, 10:51:41 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 29, 2016, 01:46:15 AM
Oh no,just when I'd vowed I would not look up any more cds or dvds on Amazon,ebay or Music Magpie!! ??? But thanks vandermolen;I will make a note of that one.  I seem to be amassing Pilgrims Progress inspired music by VW,so,no offence;but I won't look,or try no to look :( ,just yet,or,if it's cheap it will be in the post!!
I prefer the Albion release of the Pilgrims Progress to the Hyperion actually,because it's more complete;but also because Gielgud was less self consciously luvvie in his delivery back then. A wonderful release by Albion. Perfect for late evening listening;and possibly Sunday,as well.
I also recently acquired the Previn recording of the Sinfonia Antartica. I had it on a cassette,but the cd release has taken some tracking down. Along with the Handley/Delius Hassan and the BBCSO Sargent Planets;sellers either ask ridiculous prices (I mean is it a signed copy or what?) or you simply just can't get it;outside of a box,perhaps? As it turned out,I seemed to acquire them all in the space of about one week!!! I actually like the spoken bits at the beginning;although I don't want them on every single recording. I think the Previn and Boult recordings have tremendous atmosphere. I will have to listen to them both again to decide which is the best. On the face of it a simple choice;one in mono,the other stereo. I think it's possible the Boult has the edge? Maybe the mono sounds adds to the feeling of menace;but it also detracts from the sheer sonic splendour of VW's orchestration. Richardson also doesn't sound as ridiculously mannered as Gielgud had got by the time that Hyperion recording of the Pilgrims Progress was made;enjoyable as it,undoubtedly,is. I can't help wondering what actors they would use today in such recordings? I  saw a copy of the hard to get (well it has been!) Dutton cd of Rawsthornes Practical Cats a few weeks ago. I had been enjoying the old emi recording with Donat,but thought I could do with a sonically superior upgrade,as well. Well,I listened to the excerpts of Simon Callow's narration and.........oh dear,I'm definitely sticking to Donat!  Antiquated sound,or not,it's the preciseness of the timing,the crispness of the diction. It just goes to show how sloppy thing have got. Also,Donat's old fashioned,posh clipped accent does add a certain drollness to the verse. Andrew Lloyd Webber eat your heart out,eh?! ;D
Incidentally,the fact that a cd of the radio dramatisation of The pilgrims Progress has been released doesn't actually mean that I'm not dead. But if this is heaven why am I running low on cheese and why is Donald Trump heading for the nomination?!! (I'm far more concerned about the cheese situation,mind! I have it with my soup!! :()
Personally I think that Simon Callow is a candidate for the Monty Python 'Hospital for over-Actors' sketch. I liked the Svetlanov 'Antartica' on Melodiya despite an organ solo going a bit 'Dr Phibes' at one point (for those, like me, old enough to remember that film). Boult's objective style really suits Antartica, especially in his Decca recording. Ralph Richardson makes me want to cough but I quite like the superscriptions in principle. As to recent Actors I think that Jeremy Irons is fine in a recent version of 'An Oxford Elegy' on Naxos - much more laid-back than the late-great John Westbrook but his reading has grown on me. Hope some cheese shows up.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 29, 2016, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 29, 2016, 10:51:41 AMHope some cheese shows up.  :)

+1. Otherwise, I'll send some.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 29, 2016, 12:09:36 PM
Quote from: Christo on May 29, 2016, 12:01:44 PM
+1. Otherwise, I'll send some.
I can recommend Dutch cheese very strongly, although, in my experience, there is a danger of addiction.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 30, 2016, 10:06:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 29, 2016, 10:51:41 AM
Personally I think that Simon Callow is a candidate for the Monty Python 'Hospital for over-Actors' sketch. I liked the Svetlanov 'Antartica' on Melodiya despite an organ solo going a bit 'Dr Phibes' at one point (for those, like me, old enough to remember that film). Boult's objective style really suits Antartica, especially in his Decca recording. Ralph Richardson makes me want to cough but I quite like the superscriptions in principle. As to recent Actors I think that Jeremy Irons is fine in a recent version of 'An Oxford Elegy' on Naxos - much more laid-back than the late-great John Westbrook but his reading has grown on me. Hope some cheese shows up.  :)
I better have some lemon and honey at the ready the next time I listen to it! I might have second thoughts,myself.? It sometimes happens;particularly after the euphoria of securing a copy of a particularly hard  to get cd,dies down. Then again,I might not?! I don't like Ralph Richardon as an actor. He sounded okay to me,in the Symphony;not as bad as Simon Callow. Vincent Price would have been better,of course! ??? ;D Also,the first listen tends to be a precursory checking through;just in case I start hearing the dreaded skipping,which means getting my money back from whoever it is,if a wipe doesn't do the trick! The second listen is a more in depth,careful listen........so,if Ralph Richarson is liable to make me cought,that's when I'm going to need the lemon & honey (probably tea,really!) Of course,you may be referring to a different kind of cough;that relates to Richardson himself,not just his actual voice?! What do you think of the actual performance itself,vandermolen............minus,the voice?!!!!
I'd have another listen now;but I'm listening through a load of Gounod opera recordings right now!! :o ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 30, 2016, 10:11:13 AM
Actually,Vincent Price would have been quite a fun choice for a Sinfonia Antartica recording!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 30, 2016, 10:33:57 AM
Quote from: Alberich on May 29, 2016, 08:41:56 AMSymphony No. 5 is nice, plus I find it interesting he dedicated it to Sibelius.

There's an interesting story about this actually:

From Wikipedia:

Vaughan Williams dedicated the Symphony to Jean Sibelius. At the time, the Finnish composer was fashionable among British composers; Arnold Bax and William Walton had already written symphonies of Sibelian influence. The ascription originally read "Dedicated without permission and with the sincerest flattery to Jean Sibelius, whose great example is worthy of all imitation." When the work was published it was shortened to read "Dedicated without permission to Jean Sibelius". Sir Adrian Boult subsequently secured permission. Sibelius wrote: "I heard Dr. Ralph Vaughan Williams' new Symphony in Stockholm under the excellent leadership of Malcolm Sargent...This Symphony is a marvellous work ... the dedication made me feel proud and grateful...I wonder if Dr. Williams has any idea of the pleasure he has given me?"
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 30, 2016, 11:16:53 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2015, 02:19:44 PM
Yeah, listen to the Serenade...or...bring out the six-barrel Minigun (since the bazooka didn't work last time).


(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/14_6_12.gif)           cilgwyn
Just noticed this.a few pages back. This must have been posted just after my last pc hit the dust!! ??? ;D No onternet coonection,for various reasons,for about 6 months and a bit. I'm still alive,though! While I was offline I actually found a place that sent out mail order lists. I actually bought the Albion cd of 'The Pilgrims Progress' by sending off a cheque in a stamped addressed envelope!! Far out!! ??? ;D My order came very quicly though. 'Classics Direct',by the way. Anyone heard of it? If your internet connection goes and all your friends are luddites,or for various reasons,prefer to live without it,you know where to go in the Uk,anyway (no cd store here!). My order arrived very quickly,though! Fair play! And £3 in credit,because I sent too much!
I see you liked the Previn Sinfonia Antartica,Mirror Image (and eighth) "excellent perormances". I'll play it asap! I wonder if vandermolen likes it without Richardson's voice. I seem to think it was released without his voice in an earlier cd incarnation? I may be wrong? Might that be the release on the RCA Navigator label (with the maps on the front?). No need for cough mixture then!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 30, 2016, 11:29:38 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 30, 2016, 11:16:53 AMI see you liked the Previn Sinfonia Antartica,Mirror Image (and eighth) "excellent perormances". I'll play it asap! I wonder if vandermolen likes it without Richardson's voice. I seem to think it was released without his voice in an earlier cd incarnation? I may be wrong? Might that be the release on the RCA Navigator label (with the maps on the front?). No need for cough mixture then!

I did like Previn's 7th and 8th a lot, in fact, I liked the whole cycle and there are no apparent weak links in Previn's cycle. I tend to ignore the Sinfonia Antartica narration and if a performance has it (like Previn's) when I go to rip the CD, I'll leave these tracks off.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 30, 2016, 01:27:54 PM
I quite like the narration;but I wouldn't want it every time! If you DO like it I think vandermolen is right about the earlier recording;altough you have to be tolerant to fifties mono. I think it adds a little atmosphere;but again I don't want constricted mono sound every time;after all,the 'Sinfonia Antartica' is a sonic spectacular. I like the Haitink allot,for example. I also like his eighth and ninth;and I think his recording of the 'Sea Symphony' is the best I've heard in terms of cohesiveness. His reading is so taut. I think I actually bought the recording because of a post here that said that;possibly by you?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 30, 2016, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 30, 2016, 01:27:54 PM
I quite like the narration;but I wouldn't want it every time! If you DO like it I think vandermolen is right about the earlier recording;altough you have to be tolerant to fifties mono. I think it adds a little atmosphere;but again I don't want constricted mono sound every time;after all,the 'Sinfonia Antartica' is a sonic spectacular. I like the Haitink allot,for example. I also like his eighth and ninth;and I think his recording of the 'Sea Symphony' is the best I've heard in terms of cohesiveness. His reading is so taut. I think I actually bought the recording because of a post here that said that;possibly by you?

Nope. I don't believe it was me who was talking about Haitink as I'm not a fan of his cycle. I know many people here who love it, however, so perhaps it was someone like, if memory serves me correctly, Sarge or Karl?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 30, 2016, 02:18:26 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 30, 2016, 01:27:54 PM
I quite like the narration;but I wouldn't want it every time! If you DO like it I think vandermolen is right about the earlier recording;altough you have to be tolerant to fifties mono. I think it adds a little atmosphere;but again I don't want constricted mono sound every time;after all,the 'Sinfonia Antartica' is a sonic spectacular. I like the Haitink allot,for example. I also like his eighth and ninth;and I think his recording of the 'Sea Symphony' is the best I've heard in terms of cohesiveness. His reading is so taut. I think I actually bought the recording because of a post here that said that;possibly by you?
I grew up with the Boult cycle - firstly the earlier 1950s recordings on Decca Eclipse LPs (which I first discovered in the early 1970s) and then the EMI boxed set. However, I have discovered the Previn cycle in recent years and have the CD boxed set - not the super cheap new one with the picture of Previn on the box but the previous release which came complete with booklet, notes, photos. I recall that the Antartica was good not withstanding Ralph Richardson's clear need for a bottle of Veno's Cough Mixture. I will try to listen to it again tomorrow and report back. I did have the RCA Nanigator CD release too which I think came with Walton's Cello Concerto. For what it's worth I reviewed a slightly bizarre CD release featuring the excellent original Boult recording of Sinfonia Antartica for Musicweb a few years ago. Here is the link if you're interested:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Oct11/antartica_CD41024.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 30, 2016, 03:21:34 PM
It was a  rather perfunctory listen,via cordless headphones,doing things other things at the same time;so I may unfortunately come around to your point of views.......we'll see? I think the Boult is very good,and I HAVE listened to that one quite allot!  Nice to have it in my collection though,anyway. I do like the narration on the Boult cd,though. I think in an odd kind of way,the mono sound actually adds to the feeling of foreboding. Not that I'd be too happy if my Haitink recording had sounded that way!! I like to hear the sheer spectacle of VW's scoring,in all it's glory,of course.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 30, 2016, 09:29:54 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 30, 2016, 03:21:34 PM
It was a  rather perfunctory listen,via cordless headphones,doing things other things at the same time;so I may unfortunately come around to your point of views.......we'll see? I think the Boult is very good,and I HAVE listened to that one quite allot!  Nice to have it in my collection though,anyway. I do like the narration on the Boult cd,though. I think in an odd kind of way,the mono sound actually adds to the feeling of foreboding. Not that I'd be too happy if my Haitink recording had sounded that way!! I like to hear the sheer spectacle of VW's scoring,in all it's glory,of course.
I agree with you about the mono sound and rather like historical recordings for sens of atmosphere. The CD I reviewed above is the only one, I think, to feature the complete Sinfonia Antartica with the film score music and it's fascinating to see how the film score is featured in the symphony. The film score finishes on a much more 'heroic' note than the symphony with its bleak wind-machine sequence. I also like a modern recording too. I hardly know the Haitink version although it is much praised. Haitink's 'Sea Symphony' is my favourite version and made me realise how great that score is - especially the last movement.
Added later: I think that Previn's Sinfonia Antartica is very fine with a great brooding opening played slower than some other recordings. Ralph Richardson's croaky readings added to the whole experience. I must listen to Bryden Thomson's version which is well reviewed. I think that Previn's performances of symphonies 2, 3 and 8 on RCA are unrivalled and 5 is outstanding too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 31, 2016, 01:30:05 AM
And I suppose you might just get a little croaky out in a blizzard luike that (There's a particularly horrible pun there,somewhere,I know!) Incidentally,the Haitink was the first cd I ever heard;along with another one,which I maddingly can't recall. I got them out of the library! It's interesting that the Haitink is the one I remember. I remember going into the library months later and the racks were empty. I askede the librarian what had happened to them and she told me they'd been stolen! The Lp's had been there for years;presumably a bit too big to steal. Also,the cd's seem to be continually replaced;whereas the Lp's seemed to go on and on.;clicks and pops,'n' all! Anyway,I digress! ::) ;D
The 'Sea Symphony' was the VW symphony I liked least;along with.......surprise......the Fourth! Well,maybe dislike is the wrong word to use for the 'Sea Symphony. How could you dislike a Symphony that opens like that? I just felt it went on a bit. The first recording I owned was the stereo emi Boult. Then I bought the Haitink after reading a post here (or maybe somewhere else) saying it was the one that had 'done it' for somebody. Anyway,it wa the same here! It just seems to sweep along under Haitink;no saggy bits. Since then,I have collected his eighth and ninth. They don't 'blow my mind' in the way his 'Sea Symphony' did;but they definitely add something to my experience. I think his Ninth is particularly good;but then I'm prejudiced. The Ninth is one of my favourite British symphonies. However,I see no reason,as yet,to invest in his Second,Third,Fourth,Fifth or Sixth!I think the recordings I have of those provide sufficient satisfaction......so far!! ;D
By the way. An outsider choice here,maybe? What do you think of the Harmonia Mundi recording of the 'London Symphony' with the Rochester Philharmonic conducted by Christopher Seaman? It comes in a nice slip case and boasts Multi-Channel sound and nice artwork.  The booklet has a note from Seaman at the front which tells the listener that he "received a great deal of support from Sir Adrian Boult" and reproduces a letter of thanks from Boult (after hearing him in a broacast of the 'London Symphony').The recording offers a trans-atlantic perspective,of course;and is topped off with the coupling of what I know is a big favourite of yours!
What do I think of this recording? Erm,great sound....nice,but to my ears nothing special. Barbirolli and Boult get more plays;as does even the heavily cut,Dan Godfrey (although,not that often!) because I like the swish of the old shellac that comes with it (Godfrey's lucky there! ;D.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 31, 2016, 03:24:17 AM
I think that it might have been me who enthused wildly about the Haitink 'Sea Symphony' which made me appreciate the work after 40 years of ignoring it. Like you I thought it went on for too long and had the Boult EMI recording in the boxed set of LPs. I preferred the fantastic cover photo of David McFall's wonderful portrait head of VW in bronze, completed from life when VW was working on his Ninth Symphony, which is also one of my favourite symphonies of all. I find it incredibly moving; grim, defiant, staring death in the face, valedictory, monumental, monolithic etc.
I'll attach a link about the McFall head if I can find it:

http://davidmcfall.co.uk/page90.html

PS I don't have the Seaman recording of A London Symphony. I now only listen to the 1913 or 1920 version as with the 1936 version I can't listen to it without being acutely aware of the best bit of the symphony (IMHO), just before the Epilogue, which VW mistakenly (IMHO) excised in 1936. The inclusion of Serenade to Music was another reason not to buy the disc! I did recently buy the new Andrew Manze recording but only because it was mistakenly advertised as the 1920 version by an online retailer. It was enjoyable enough but nothing special. The Godfrey sadly doesn't include the extended epilogue sequence either. I do, however, like the  powerful and atmospheric Henry Wood recording on Dutton despite it also having cuts in it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 31, 2016, 04:05:00 AM
Aaagh! I forgot that one. I've just been quite busy! :-[ To be fair to Godfrey;it does seem to have been fairly standard practice to issue music like this with cuts. I think it's admirable that he did actually record what he did. I don't have a problem with the sound,either;the problem is that I don't think it  is in itself a truly stand out memorable performance. In fact,the main reason I listen to it is because I'm interested in early recordings of orchestral anfd operatic works. Perhaps Godfrey wasn't too comfortable recording in studio conditions? The acoustic abridged 'Hugh the Drover' is much better,in that respect,and worth hearing,if you like that sort of thing. Parts of it are quite moving,and at least the abridged version doesn't go on as much!  Some lovely music in there,though. The Henry Wood however,is everything that the Godfrey isn't. A very powerful,brooding,atmospheric performance. Again,I feel quite embarassed for forgetting it.
As to the Seaman 'London Symphony'. I've kept it because it's a US orchestra and it's good,lovely sound quality too;but not essential. There's nothing that really grabs or stays with you. It get's some very enthusiastic reviews on the internet,though;so what do I know,eh?
Just what I feel!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 31, 2016, 04:16:55 AM
If you want fantastic sound you've got the Hickox Chandos recording anyway,and far more for you're money! It's great to see American orchestras doing VW,though.
What about the RCA Previn 'London Symphony',though? I see lots of rave reviews on the internet;but to date,s/h copies of the cd release (I know about the boxes) have been out of the reach of my wallet;or at least,I'm just not willing to pay that much. Come on 'MusicMagpie'(for example......I won't look;in case they have one!! ??? ;D) I've bought enough this month!!! Incidentally,MusicMagpie are a pain if you want to save!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 31, 2016, 06:32:50 AM
Agree about MusicMagpie totally. The decapitated heads of their owners should be placed on the Tower of London as a warning to other CD obsessives (I'm writing on behalf of 'a friend' you understand?)

The Previn RCA LS (London Symphony) is one of the very best recorded performances - a wonderful hushed an expectant atmosphere at the start. Mind you, the EMI Boult version was the one that I listened to over and over and over again as a 17/18 year old.

As to American orchestras, the Cincinnati SO's 1940 recording of the 1920 version of 'A London Symphony' (Goossens) was an absolute revelation to me and the first time I heard the wonderful sections which the composer had excised in 1936. One of my all-time favourite CDs.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 09, 2016, 11:29:48 PM
Been listening to this. The performance of Symphony 5 (1940s) must be the most powerful on disc. The Russian works are great too:
[asin]B000SG7Z36[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scion7 on July 09, 2016, 11:38:53 PM
What's the fidelity like, though?   :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 10, 2016, 01:21:20 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on July 09, 2016, 11:38:53 PM
What's the fidelity like, though?   :o
Not great - so you probably wouldn't want this as your only recording of the work. However, for Vaughan Williams fans it is a mandatory purchase I'd have thought.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scion7 on July 11, 2016, 03:33:59 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/990/MI0000990298.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

[asin]B000000TQV[/asin]

If Goosens had had modern recording equipment / techniques at hand, he might get my fave performance vote.
But this one is my choice - for now.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2016, 06:08:13 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 30, 2016, 11:16:53 AM
Just noticed this.a few pages back. This must have been posted just after my last pc hit the dust!! ??? ;D

Oh, it may just have been the occasion  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scion7 on July 13, 2016, 08:53:22 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0004/052/MI0004052637.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

[asin]B01BULEE6S[/asin]

Good job on the London Symphony.
Musicweb gave it the album-of-the-month review.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 13, 2016, 09:29:27 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on July 13, 2016, 08:53:22 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0004/052/MI0004052637.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

[asin]B01BULEE6S[/asin]

Good job on the London Symphony.
Musicweb gave it the album-of-the-month review.

I'll definitely be interested in this cycle whenever Manze finishes it. A box set will be imminent I'm sure.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 07, 2016, 01:30:30 PM
BBC Music Magazine (September) has a couple of interesting features about Vaughan Williams - one relating 'A Pastoral Symphony' to the contemporaneous 'The Shepherds of the Delectable Mountains' and arguing about their significance in the context of the myriad losses of the First World War. It is a genuinely interesting feature and heralds a new book about Vaughan Williams and the First World War being published in 2017/2018. There is also a survey of recordings of Symphony 4. The composer's own is their first choice (not mine however) and they also praise the recordings by Richard Hickox and Vernon Handley as well as the classic version from Dmitri Mitropoulos. Paavo Berglund's is my own favourite. They say that Boult's EMI version is 'one to avoid' and I don't agree with that either.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 07, 2016, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 07, 2016, 01:30:30 PM
There is also a survey of recordings of Symphony 4. The composer's own is their first choice (not mine however) and they also praise the recordings by Richard Hickox and Vernon Handley as well as the classic version from Dmitri Mitropoulos. Paavo Berglund's is my own favourite. They say that Boult's EMI version is 'one to avoid' and I don't agree with that either.

I've got 3 different versions of the 4th (Berglund and Slatkin on CD, Bernstein on LP). I like all three of them, but if I had to choose one I'd probably go with Berglund.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 07, 2016, 02:20:09 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 07, 2016, 01:59:13 PM
I've got 3 different versions of the 4th (Berglund and Slatkin on CD, Bernstein on LP). I like all three of them, but if I had to choose one I'd probably go with Berglund.
BBC's 'Building a Library' on Radio 3 a few years ago recommended the Berglund as their No.1 choice for Vaughan Williams's 4th Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on September 08, 2016, 04:51:54 AM
Another release due of previous unperformed RVW music:

http://rvwsociety.com/albionrecords/#


Three Nocturnes
A Road All Paved with Stars
Stricken Peninsula
Four Last Songs

No further details at present.



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 08, 2016, 05:05:01 AM
Quote from: Oates on September 08, 2016, 04:51:54 AM
Another release due of previous unperformed RVW music:

http://rvwsociety.com/albionrecords/# (http://rvwsociety.com/albionrecords/#)

Three Nocturnes
A Road All Paved with Stars
Stricken Peninsula
Four Last Songs

No further details at present.

You set me to searching the catalogue:

Quote1908
Three Nocturnes
(Whitman). For baritone solo, semi-chorus, and orchestra. I. Come, O voluptuous sweet-breathed earth; II. By the Bivouac's fitful flame, III. Out of the rolling ocean. Nos. I and III are dated 18 August 1908. A theme used in III recurs in a modified form in Sancta Civitas. Substantial but incomplete.

Quote1944
The Stricken Peninsula
None of the music is known to have survived.

A wartime film, so perhaps they have "reconstructed" the score from the film?

QuoteIn memory of Michael Kennedy (1926–2014), friend of Vaughan Williams and ... A Road all Paved with Stars was jointly commissioned by Oxford University

So, not a RVW work, per se, but an arrangement of material from A Poisoned Kiss.

At least one of the Four Last Songs seems to be up on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/v/fkwZ5ghn0A4
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 08, 2016, 05:07:40 AM
I got so caught up in the chase, I neglected to remark . . . how wonderful that he wrote so very much, that even now there is work yet to be performed.

Odd to think of the Four Last Songs languishing for want of performance, thought
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 08, 2016, 11:08:44 PM
Two other major projects are still waiting to be done. One would be, to bring together his two 'pageants' in collaboration with E.M. Forster (!):

1934: Music for the Pageant of Abinger, with words by E.M Forster (for choir and band); https://www.dorkingmuseum.org.uk/ralph-vaughan-williams/d5-44-copy
1938: England's Pleasant Land (again by Forster, again for choir and band); http://www.historicalpageants.ac.uk/blog/pageant-ambridge
He is said to have tested some of his ideas for the Fifth Symphony in the latter, and no doubt the former reflects some traits of the Fourth from the same year (as do all compositions from this time).

The other would be, to bring together all the incidental music from the 1910s:

Euripides: The Bacchae (1911);
Shakespeare: The Merry Wives of Windsor, Richard II, Henry IV Part 2, Richard III, Henry V (all in 1913);

Only The Death of Tintagiles (1913, Maeterlinck) has been recorded, and proved quite a 'revelation' (RVW in his most impressionist mood).



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 08, 2016, 11:20:07 PM
Quote from: Christo on September 08, 2016, 11:08:44 PM
Two other major projects are still waiting to be done. One would be, to bring together his two 'pageants' in collaboration with E.M. Forster (!):

1934: Music for the Pageant of Abinger, with words by E.M Forster (for choir and band); https://www.dorkingmuseum.org.uk/ralph-vaughan-williams/d5-44-copy
1938: England's Pleasant Land (again by Forster, again for choir and band); http://www.historicalpageants.ac.uk/blog/pageant-ambridge
He is said to have tested some of his ideas for the Fifth Symphony in the latter, and no doubt the former reflects some traits of the Fourth from the same year (as do all compositions from this time).

The other would be, to bring together all the incidental music from the 1910s:

Euripides: The Bacchae (1911);
Shakespeare: The Merry Wives of Windsor, Richard II, Henry IV Part 2, Richard III, Henry V (all in 1913);

Only The Death of Tintagiles (1913, Maeterlinck) has been recorded, and proved quite a 'revelation' (RVW in his most impressionist mood).
The photo from the Abinger Pageant is quite funny. The band appear to be playing, the crowd of people seem to be paying no attention, facing the opposite direction or walking away and Vaughan Williams appears to be in a kind of 'No Man's Land'. It reminds me of a famous wartime poster of Winston Churchill saying: 'Let us Go Forward Together' in which Churchill is facing one way and the aircraft and tanks appear to be moving in the opposite direction. I guess they must be watching the pageant - still find it funny though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on October 01, 2016, 11:16:58 AM
Quote from: Oates on September 08, 2016, 04:51:54 AM
Another release due of previous unperformed RVW music:

http://rvwsociety.com/albionrecords/#


Three Nocturnes
A Road All Paved with Stars
Stricken Peninsula
Four Last Songs

No further details at present.

This CD is wonderful...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 01, 2016, 11:25:03 PM
Quote from: Oates on October 01, 2016, 11:16:58 AM
This CD is wonderful...
Great to hear as just received it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on October 07, 2016, 04:05:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 01, 2016, 11:25:03 PMGreat to hear as just received it.

Am playing it for the first time today (on Spotify). Unexpected surprise at the very start: the opening chords of the first of the  Three Nocturnes ('Smile O Voluptuous Cool-Breath'd Earth'; what's in a name) from 1908 are very similar to the main material (theme and development) of the opening movement Molto moderato of A Pastoral Symphony. For about 30 long seconds long.  :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 07, 2016, 12:30:22 PM
Quote from: Christo on October 07, 2016, 04:05:13 AM
Am playing it for the first time today (on Spotify). Unexpected surprise at the very start: the opening chords of the first of the  Three Nocturnes ('Smile O Voluptuous Cool-Breath'd Earth'; what's in a name) from 1908 are very similar to the main material (theme and development) of the opening movement Molto moderato of A Pastoral Symphony. For about 30 long seconds long.  :o
Very interesting to hear and greatly looking forward to hearing it. My own copy was intercepted by 'Customs Control' here so I'm keeping it as a Christmas Present. ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2016, 01:30:49 AM
BBC Radio 3's 'Building a Library' choice this morning was A London Symphony - an interesting survey. Their final two recommendations were the Vernon Handley RLPO version and Bernard Haitink's recording with a nod to Barbirolli's earlier recording with the Halle Orchestra. There was also a 'wild card' recommendation for Rozhdestvensky's recording made in the then Leningrad. The march in the last movement sounded like Prokofiev but well worth hearing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on November 24, 2016, 04:32:12 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 12, 2016, 01:30:49 AM
BBC Radio 3's 'Building a Library' choice this morning was A London Symphony - an interesting survey. Their final two recommendations were the Vernon Handley RLPO version and Bernard Haitink's recording with a nod to Barbirolli's earlier recording with the Halle Orchestra. There was also a 'wild card' recommendation for Rozhdestvensky's recording made in the then Leningrad. The march in the last movement sounded like Prokofiev but well worth hearing.

I grew up with the Barbirolli / Halle version and when I later heard other versions I thought the Scherzo was too fast - Barbirolli alone seems to have slowed the tempo right down - I must say I prefer it slow...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 24, 2016, 03:06:01 PM
Quote from: Oates on November 24, 2016, 04:32:12 AM
I grew up with the Barbirolli / Halle version and when I later heard other versions I thought the Scherzo was too fast - Barbirolli alone seems to have slowed the tempo right down - I must say I prefer it slow...

I liked the EMI Barbirolli Halle version too - the critics always complained about the slowness of the scherzo but it sounded right to me.

By the way I know Carnforth as I was a student at Lancaster.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 04, 2016, 01:40:41 AM
Don't be put off if you have overdosed on 'The Lark Ascending' because this is a most interesting disc, featuring the very early tone poem 'The Solent' (1903), a theme from which features in the contemporaneous 'Sea Symphony' and right at the end of the composer's life in Symphony No.9 - obviously the theme meant a lot to Vaughan Williams. I also liked the even earlier 'Fantasia for Piano and Orchestra' - not entirely characteristic, sounding rather like Parry but a fascinating glimpse of VW's early development as a composer. The short piano pieces are light weight but the performance by the Chamber Orchestra of New York brings a freshness to  the ubiquitous ' Lark Ascending'.
[asin]B01M09TBAK[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on December 04, 2016, 10:30:35 AM
I like that Henry Wood recording of the Fantasia on Greensleves,where he conducts it really slowly. He makes it sound like a stately dance. I think it could be my favourite,strangely enough!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 04, 2016, 11:28:35 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 04, 2016, 10:30:35 AM
I like that Henry Wood recording of the Fantasia on Greensleves,where he conducts it really slowly. He makes it sound like a stately dance. I think it could be my favourite,strangely enough!
His recording of 'A London Symphony' is excellent and recently commended on BBC Radio 3's 'Building a Library'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2016, 12:00:02 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 04, 2016, 10:30:35 AM
I like that Henry Wood recording of the Fantasia on Greensleves,where he conducts it really slowly. He makes it sound like a stately dance. I think it could be my favourite,strangely enough!

What recording is that? The only Wood's performance online I can find is this one (1937, not complete), which is anything but slow.

https://www.youtube.com/v/wdxX5dY8dMI


Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 05, 2016, 01:18:53 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2016, 12:00:02 PM
What recording is that? The only Wood's performance online I can find is this one (1937, not complete), which is anything but slow.
https://www.youtube.com/v/wdxX5dY8dMI
Sarge

I think it's the 1936 (London, April 22, 1936) recording of the Queen's Hall Orchestra under Henry Wood on this precious cd:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41JZ4FFPQKL.jpg)

And I also think you're both right. At least partially: Wood taking a much quicker tempo for the Greensleeve theme is exactly the reason why it sounds as a 'stately dance' here. But he also opts for slower tempi at other moments, thus effectively turning the piece 'upside down' compared to all other recordings that I know of - and for that very reason my favourite performance too.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 18, 2017, 09:58:20 AM
Extraordinary looking new release:
I'm always delighted and interested to hear Vaughan Williams's music performed by non-British orchestras.
[asin]B01MRZNUSN[/asin]
These are two of his greatest works I believe.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 18, 2017, 06:47:44 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2017, 09:58:20 AM
Extraordinary looking new release:
I'm always delighted and interested to hear Vaughan Williams's music performed by non-British orchestras.
[asin]B01MRZNUSN[/asin]
These are two of his greatest works I believe.

Yep, I bought this one earlier today, Jeffrey. Very much looking forward to hearing how Davis has matured with this music. It's been many years since he's recorded either work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 18, 2017, 09:55:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 18, 2017, 06:47:44 PM
Yep, I bought this one earlier today, Jeffrey. Very much looking forward to hearing how Davis has matured with this music. It's been many of years since he's recording either work.
Me too John. The only other recording which couples these two fine works is his earlier one!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 19, 2017, 06:46:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2017, 09:58:20 AMExtraordinary looking new release:
I'm always delighted and interested to hear Vaughan Williams's music performed by non-British orchestras.

Had Operation Wilfred been more successful, the Stiftelsen Musikkselskapet Harmonien might have created a Bergen Philharmonic playing a home match, instead of the present Bergen Filharmoniske Orkester doing it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Campaign#Allied_plans  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on January 19, 2017, 07:25:24 AM
Another new RVW release:




https://www.amazon.co.uk/Piano-Music-Ralph-Vaughan-Williams/dp/B01NALGLYL/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1484842921&sr=1-8&keywords=vaughan+williams
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 19, 2017, 12:41:16 PM
Quote from: Oates on January 19, 2017, 07:25:24 AM
Another new RVW release:




https://www.amazon.co.uk/Piano-Music-Ralph-Vaughan-Williams/dp/B01NALGLYL/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1484842921&sr=1-8&keywords=vaughan+williams
Very interesting. The Lake in the Mountains is particularly good although some of the other material is piano transcriptions of orchestral music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 19, 2017, 06:40:49 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 19, 2017, 12:41:16 PM
Very interesting. The Lake in the Mountains is particularly good although some of the other material is piano transcriptions of orchestral music.

Yep, The Lake in the Mountains was one of his only solo piano works. I'm not particularly drawn to solo piano music, but I do find myself enjoying Debussy, Ravel, and Janacek a lot.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 19, 2017, 09:32:41 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 19, 2017, 12:41:16 PM
Very interesting. The Lake in the Mountains is particularly good although some of the other material is piano transcriptions of orchestral music.

I have the old Trax Classics disk of VW piano music and I like the Lake in the Mountain a lot, also very good are the two choral preludes, one original on the theme of Gibbons, the other an adaption of one of Bach's with an extra line of counterpoint (written for some 15 fingered pianist or other, was it Myra Hess?)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 19, 2017, 11:53:49 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 19, 2017, 06:40:49 PM
Yep, The Lake in the Mountains was one of his only solo piano works. I'm not particularly drawn to solo piano music, but I do find myself enjoying Debussy, Ravel, and Janacek a lot.
Me too - I like the piano music of all those composers. I think that The Lake in the Mountains is adapted from a film/movie score.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2017, 07:10:56 AM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 22, 2017, 06:34:28 AM
Just bought:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81rmYUc8WXL._SL1500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8189SlDmzdL._SL1210_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/9111YpbYoEL._SL1500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61eohImnBhL.jpg)

I bought all of these from Dutton's website. I've been drooling over these for quite some time.

Also bought:

(http://assets.classicfm.com/2016/36/vaughan-williams-discovery-1473433657.png) (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571173818.png)

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.557798.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/956/MI0000956087.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I'm really looking forward to hearing all of these as a good bit of these works will be completely new to me. Even though RVW is one of my faves, I'm still finding so much to treasure in his rather large and diverse oeuvre.

I should also look into his operas or at least give The Poisoned Kiss, Sir John in Love, and The Pilgrim's Progress another listen as it's been years since I've heard them.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 22, 2017, 12:43:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 22, 2017, 07:10:56 AM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

I'm really looking forward to hearing all of these as a good bit of these works will be completely new to me. Even though RVW is one of my faves, I'm still finding so much to treasure in his rather large and diverse oeuvre.

I should also look into his operas or at least give The Poisoned Kiss, Sir John in Love, and The Pilgrim's Progress another listen as it's been years since I've heard them.
Looks like a great RVW splurge! :)
You will enjoy much of this material if you don't already know it. The only disc I didn't like amongst that lot is 'Fat Night' which I found turgid. I especially like 'Dark Pastoral' and especially 'Heroic Elegy' - the VW Discoveries CD has some great material on it and I love the combination of the 1920 version of A London Symphony (my favourite version) and the Concerto for Two Pianos, which I prefer to the single piano version. The Dona Nobis Pacem Hickox CD is rightly a classic one. The early chamber music is a great set but I don't think much of 'The Sons of Light'.
Happy listening John!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 22, 2017, 01:28:41 PM
Recently I listened to Sir John in Love and then Verdi's Falstaff, and no prizes for guessing which I thought the better opera!
Title: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 22, 2017, 02:27:33 PM
No prizes = no incentive

8)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2017, 02:41:39 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 22, 2017, 12:43:03 PM
Looks like a great RVW splurge! :)
You will enjoy much of this material if you don't already know it. The only disc I didn't like amongst that lot is 'Fat Night' which I found turgid. I especially like 'Dark Pastoral' and especially 'Heroic Elegy' - the VW Discoveries CD has some great material on it and I love the combination of the 1920 version of A London Symphony (my favourite version) and the Concerto for Two Pianos, which I prefer to the single piano version. The Dona Nobis Pacem Hickox CD is rightly a classic one. The early chamber music is a great set but I don't think much of 'The Sons of Light'.
Happy listening John!  :)

Indeed, Jeffrey. I'm looking forward to all of these.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 22, 2017, 03:30:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 18, 2017, 06:47:44 PM
Yep, I bought this one earlier today, Jeffrey. Very much looking forward to hearing how Davis has matured with this music. It's been many years since he's recorded either work.

Let us know what you think.  It's a bit pricey for me but the sound samples of Job sound fantastic but I hate the 9th being so quick in tempo during the last movement.  Previn/LSO is my favorite of this work and part of that is the pacing is so spot on plus the horns play as if their lives depended on it.  I love how movement 3 is such a crazy tempo but the very contrasting slow last movement really bookends the work to my ears.  I feel this music speaks more clearly when the pacing is Mahlerian in the final movement IMO.  It really helps the pathos come through and then a gradual increase in tempo to the ending until the coda which should be very slow.  Just my opinion.  I hate how Haitink ignores the dynamics of the score in favor of a softer feel.  I worry Andrew Davis falls into the safe category rather than the dramatic/intense school. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2017, 04:05:36 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 22, 2017, 03:30:35 PM
Let us know what you think.  It's a bit pricey for me but the sound samples of Job sound fantastic but I hate the 9th being so quick in tempo during the last movement.  Previn/LSO is my favorite of this work and part of that is the pacing is so spot on plus the horns play as if their lives depended on it.  I love how movement 3 is such a crazy tempo but the very contrasting slow last movement really bookends the work to my ears.  I feel this music speaks more clearly when the pacing is Mahlerian in the final movement IMO.  It really helps the pathos come through and then a gradual increase in tempo to the ending until the coda which should be very slow.  Just my opinion.  I hate how Haitink ignores the dynamics of the score in favor of a softer feel.  I worry Andrew Davis falls into the safe category rather than the dramatic/intense school.

Will do, relm1. Truth be told, I actually bought this new Davis recording for Job. One of my absolute favorite RVW works. I still haven't quite cracked the 9th, but I'll have to give Previn's performance a listen since you rate it so highly. Of all RVW's symphonies, the 1st, 7th, and 9th are the ones that I haven't spent much time with other than the occasional listen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 22, 2017, 09:35:30 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 22, 2017, 12:43:03 PMbut I don't think much of 'The Sons of Light'.
...because this version is incomprehensibly weak compared to the one David Willcocks did for Lyrita:
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/150/MI0001150497.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 22, 2017, 11:25:02 PM
Quote from: Christo on January 22, 2017, 09:35:30 PM
...because this version is incomprehensibly weak compared to the one David Willcocks did for Lyrita:
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/150/MI0001150497.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
That is true but I don't think that much of the work itself. I should get the Willcocks version - I have the LP only.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 23, 2017, 06:16:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 22, 2017, 04:05:36 PM
Will do, relm1. Truth be told, I actually bought this new Davis recording for Job. One of my absolute favorite RVW works. I still haven't quite cracked the 9th, but I'll have to give Previn's performance a listen since you rate it so highly. Of all RVW's symphonies, the 1st, 7th, and 9th are the ones that I haven't spent much time with other than the occasional listen.

I love every single one of his symphonies.  The 9th has some very beautiful moments but the range of expression is immense.  It made such an impression on me that I have this book about it. https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williamss-Symphony-Structure-Interpretation/dp/0198162847

Structurally, it does remind me of Mahler's 9th with two chaotic scherzo's in the middle that are bookended with tense and grave large outer movements.  It is a questioning symphony full of bleakness that builds.  The last movement takes some of the themes from the first movement but extends them and develops them with more dramatic form.  I absolutely love the unexpected anguish of the coda as the symphony tries to land on E major.  For me, that rising trombone melody (at 12:26) is so full of pathos and devastatingly aching but there is brief catharsis in the final seconds.   Have we ever heard anything from RVW that is more anguished?  https://youtu.be/V9CK-ZVvoDE?t=712

But the E major is achieved in the final smashing chords as we recall music from RVW's early work "the Solent" and music dissolves into oblivion.  That E major resolution just seems like it came at such a great cost.  This is the end of a long journey of a great composer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 23, 2017, 12:28:39 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 23, 2017, 06:16:48 AM
I love every single one of his symphonies.  The 9th has some very beautiful moments but the range of expression is immense.  It made such an impression on me that I have this book about it. https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williamss-Symphony-Structure-Interpretation/dp/0198162847

Structurally, it does remind me of Mahler's 9th with two chaotic scherzo's in the middle that are bookended with tense and grave large outer movements.  It is a questioning symphony full of bleakness that builds.  The last movement takes some of the themes from the first movement but extends them and develops them with more dramatic form.  I absolutely love the unexpected anguish of the coda as the symphony tries to land on E major.  For me, that rising trombone melody (at 12:26) is so full of pathos and devastatingly aching but there is brief catharsis in the final seconds.   Have we ever heard anything from RVW that is more anguished?  https://youtu.be/V9CK-ZVvoDE?t=712

But the E major is achieved in the final smashing chords as we recall music from RVW's early work "the Solent" and music dissolves into oblivion.  That E major resolution just seems like it came at such a great cost.  This is the end of a long journey of a great composer.
Beautifully expressed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 24, 2017, 12:39:39 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 23, 2017, 06:16:48 AM
I love every single one of his symphonies.  The 9th has some very beautiful moments but the range of expression is immense.  It made such an impression on me that I have this book about it. https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williamss-Symphony-Structure-Interpretation/dp/0198162847

Structurally, it does remind me of Mahler's 9th with two chaotic scherzo's in the middle that are bookended with tense and grave large outer movements.  It is a questioning symphony full of bleakness that builds.  The last movement takes some of the themes from the first movement but extends them and develops them with more dramatic form.  I absolutely love the unexpected anguish of the coda as the symphony tries to land on E major.  For me, that rising trombone melody (at 12:26) is so full of pathos and devastatingly aching but there is brief catharsis in the final seconds.   Have we ever heard anything from RVW that is more anguished?  https://youtu.be/V9CK-ZVvoDE?t=712

But the E major is achieved in the final smashing chords as we recall music from RVW's early work "the Solent" and music dissolves into oblivion.  That E major resolution just seems like it came at such a great cost.  This is the end of a long journey of a great composer.
Share every observation and love the Ninth since I heard it (actually, I heard only the mysterious final chords on the Radio when I hurried home as a school boy and had become an RVW addict already, but with limited access to his music; acquired an LP with the Previn recording some years later). By far my favourite recording of these two middle movements, because they reveal all the anguish and resignation, is the one by Bryden Thomson. Am still waiting for a recording that convinces me in all four movements (find Thomson too 'hushed' in the opening movement). What is yours?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2017, 01:27:57 AM
Re: Symphony 9
It is one of my favourite scores although I prefer the outer two movements. I think that Bryden Thomson was underrated and I really like his version coupled with the Piano Concerto. Stokowski's account is incredibly gripping as are both by Boult, the earlier one recorded on the day of the composer's death (he had been due to attend the recording session). The harps at the end are best realised in Handley's recording. I also like Slatkin's performance very much. I realise that the question was not addressed to me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2017, 04:44:34 AM
Quote from: Christo on January 24, 2017, 12:39:39 AM
Share every observation and love the Ninth since I heard it (actually, I heard only the mysterious final chords on the Radio when I hurried home as a school boy and had become an RVW addict already, but with limited access to his music; acquired an LP with the Previn recording some years later). By far my favourite recording of these two middle movements, because they reveal all the anguish and resignation, is the one by Bryden Thomson. Am still waiting for a recording that convinces me in all four movements (find Thomson too 'hushed' in the opening movement).

Not that it addresses your concerns (I have not listened to as many of the recordings as you have), but have you heard the Bakels?  If so, what do you think of it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 24, 2017, 05:29:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 24, 2017, 04:44:34 AM
Not that it addresses your concerns (I have not listened to as many of the recordings as you have), but have you heard the Bakels?  If so, what do you think of it?

Bakels is one of my three favorite versions (Haitink, Bakels, Thomson). He is quicker in the outer movements than Haitink, providing a nice alternative take on the music. MusicWeb has this to say:

"[Bakels] recordings of the VW symphonies have been underrated which is surprising considering his very passionate and exciting way with VW's music. His tempos for the 9th are very close to those of Thomson and certainly he presses the music in a manner that only Thomson matches. Naxos provides him with a wide-ranging recording with extremely impressive bass. His account is coupled with an equally intense account of the 5th Symphony. If I slightly prefer the Thomson it is because that version is even more relentless in its nihilistic view of this extremely enigmatic and magnificent work."

And the Huwitzer:

"Bakel's performances are extremely exciting, especially his Ninth Symphony, which is a revelation. It may be that the fast tempos compromise what some consider the music's "transcendental" qualities, but that's a small loss when the interpretation gives the work so much more coherence and urgency then usual."


Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2017, 05:43:13 AM
Cheers, Sarge!  It is too long since I listened to it, but it was indeed the Bakels recording which introduced me to the work, and I loved it from the start.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2017, 02:44:33 PM
I see that the forthcoming Andrew Davis/Bergen PO recording of Symphony 9 and Job is being presented as a completion of the Richard Hickox cycle which presumably means that he will record Sinfonia Antartica as well. Then I expect that Chandos will release a Hickox/Davis boxed set of the complete symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2017, 02:58:42 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 22, 2017, 03:30:35 PM
Let us know what you think.  It's a bit pricey for me but the sound samples of Job sound fantastic but I hate the 9th being so quick in tempo during the last movement.  Previn/LSO is my favorite of this work and part of that is the pacing is so spot on plus the horns play as if their lives depended on it.  I love how movement 3 is such a crazy tempo but the very contrasting slow last movement really bookends the work to my ears.  I feel this music speaks more clearly when the pacing is Mahlerian in the final movement IMO.  It really helps the pathos come through and then a gradual increase in tempo to the ending until the coda which should be very slow.  Just my opinion.  I hate how Haitink ignores the dynamics of the score in favor of a softer feel.  I worry Andrew Davis falls into the safe category rather than the dramatic/intense school.
I just listened to the sample extracts on the Chandos website and very much agree with you. Job sounds terrific and idiomatic but the final movement of the Ninth Symphony does indeed sound rushed which is a shame. This is what Sargent did at the first performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 24, 2017, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2017, 02:58:42 PM
I just listened to the sample extracts on the Chandos website and very much agree with you. Job sounds terrific and idiomatic but the final movement of the Ninth Symphony does indeed sound rushed which is a shame. This is what Sargent did at the first performance.

Damn it!  I hate when I'm right.  :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 24, 2017, 06:22:35 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 23, 2017, 06:16:48 AM
I love every single one of his symphonies.  The 9th has some very beautiful moments but the range of expression is immense.  It made such an impression on me that I have this book about it. https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williamss-Symphony-Structure-Interpretation/dp/0198162847

Structurally, it does remind me of Mahler's 9th with two chaotic scherzo's in the middle that are bookended with tense and grave large outer movements.  It is a questioning symphony full of bleakness that builds.  The last movement takes some of the themes from the first movement but extends them and develops them with more dramatic form.  I absolutely love the unexpected anguish of the coda as the symphony tries to land on E major.  For me, that rising trombone melody (at 12:26) is so full of pathos and devastatingly aching but there is brief catharsis in the final seconds.   Have we ever heard anything from RVW that is more anguished?  https://youtu.be/V9CK-ZVvoDE?t=712

But the E major is achieved in the final smashing chords as we recall music from RVW's early work "the Solent" and music dissolves into oblivion.  That E major resolution just seems like it came at such a great cost.  This is the end of a long journey of a great composer.

Thanks for your wonderfully vivid post, relm1. I'll definitely keep my ears perked up whenever I revisit the 9th, which won't be too much longer as my survey of the symphonies brings me to the 6th next.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 24, 2017, 06:32:28 PM
When it comes to RVW's symphonies, I seem to be firmly in three different camps: Previn, Boult (EMI), and Thomson. I still don't think much of Haitink's traversal, but admittedly it has been some time since I've revisited that cycle. The wild card of the bunch seems to be Rozhdestvensky, which I don't have any interest in as I'm not too intrigued by the idea of RVW being performed with a Russian orchestra, soloists, etc. Sorry, it's just not for me. I will say my buddy Jeffrey (Vandermolden) sent me a wonderful Rozhdestvensky recording of the 5th and Sancta Civitas with the BBC Symphony Orchestra. I also still admire much of Handley's cycle with the London Philharmonic. I never cared much for Slatkin, the Naxos cycle (Daniel/Bakels), or Andrew Davis' earlier cycle. That about covers the available cycles. We'll have to wait for Manze to complete his survey, but, so far, I'm not impressed. Everything sounds right, but there's some magic missing in the performances. It just sounds rather lifeless.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: snyprrr on January 24, 2017, 07:18:48 PM
The whole 1st Page of the Composer Dussion has been taken over by the Cowpat Army! :laugh: watch your step ???
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2017, 10:41:47 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 24, 2017, 05:33:14 PM
Damn it!  I hate when I'm right.  :(
Yes but remember that I've only heard a 90 second sample. I may feel differently when I've heard the whole thing. It's been sent out today.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2017, 10:46:14 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 24, 2017, 07:18:48 PM
The whole 1st Page of the Composer Dussion has been taken over by the Cowpat Army! :laugh: watch your step ???
Hehe. I'm not sure that Haydn, Tchaikovsky and Bruckner would agree with your 'cowpat school' label.
8)

However, post-Brexit it's important that we reassert British values. ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2017, 10:57:44 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 24, 2017, 06:32:28 PM
When it comes to RVW's symphonies, I seem to be firmly in three different camps: Previn, Boult (EMI), and Thomson. I still don't think much of Haitink's traversal, but admittedly it has been some time since I've revisited that cycle. The wild card of the bunch seems to be Rozhdestvensky, which I don't have any interest in as I'm not too intrigued by the idea of RVW being performed with a Russian orchestra, soloists, etc. Sorry, it's just not for me. I will say my buddy Jeffrey (Vandermolden) sent me a wonderful Rozhdestvensky recording of the 5th and Sancta Civitas with the BBC Symphony Orchestra. I also still admire much of Handley's cycle with the London Philharmonic. I never cared much for Slatkin, the Naxos cycle (Daniel/Bakels), or Andrew Davis' earlier cycle. That about covers the available cycles. We'll have to wait for Manze to complete his survey, but, so far, I'm not impressed. Everything sounds right, but there's some magic missing in the performances. It just sounds rather lifeless.
I agree about Manze but the Elder 'Pastoral' is very good. Norrington is a disaster as far as I'm concerned. Coincidentally yesterday I listened to Boult's EMI version of Symphony 6 which I enjoyed more than ever before although I remain very loyal to his earlier LPO account, the LP issue of which had a huge impact on my wide-eyed 17 year old self. I never liked A Sea Symphony until I heard the Haitink which was a complete revelation to me. Thomson is invariably underrated and I like his cycle along with both by Boult. Previn maybe conducts the greatest 2,3,5 and 8 but 4 and 6 are disappointing which is a shame. Overall his cycle is very strong. I enjoy the Rozhdestvensky, especially where the organ goes haywire in Sinfonia Antartica but I would not choose it as my only set. Overall maybe Boult's EMI set is now my favourite and not to forget Barbirolli's fine recordings (x2) of symphonies 2 and 5, Bernstein's great No.4, Stokowski's wonderfully defiant No.9 and Berglund's Sibelian readings of symphonies 4 and 6 (4 was No.1 choice on BBC 'Building a Library'). I'm sorry that Berglund never recorded a cycle. I'm looking forward to hearing the new Andrew Davis CD. I liked his earlier recording of 9 and 'Job' and his No.6 was very highly rated. Mustn't forget Maurice Abravanel's fine Utah Symphony 6 - he is one of the few to get the mysterious 'Epilogue' right - most conductors rush through it. Boult's LPO account is unrivalled here in my view. Just some rambling thoughts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: snyprrr on January 25, 2017, 04:18:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2017, 10:46:14 PM
Hehe. I'm not sure that Haydn, Tchaikovsky and Bruckner would agree with your 'cowpat school' label.
8)

However, post-Brexit it's important that we reassert British values. ;D

No, but sooomeone's going through their EnglishPastoral phase... sooomeone,... who is it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 25, 2017, 06:10:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2017, 10:57:44 PM
I agree about Manze but the Elder 'Pastoral' is very good. Norrington is a disaster as far as I'm concerned. Coincidentally yesterday I listened to Boult's EMI version of Symphony 6 which I enjoyed more than ever before although I remain very loyal to his earlier LPO account, the LP issue of which had a huge impact on my wide-eyed 17 year old self. I never liked A Sea Symphony until I heard the Haitink which was a complete revelation to me. Thomson is invariably underrated and I like his cycle along with both by Boult. Previn maybe conducts the greatest 2,3,5 and 8 but 4 and 6 are disappointing which is a shame. Overall his cycle is very strong. I enjoy the Rozhdestvensky, especially where the organ goes haywire in Sinfonia Antartica but I would not choose it as my only set. Overall maybe Boult's EMI set is now my favourite and not to forget Barbirolli's fine recordings (x2) of symphonies 2 and 5, Bernstein's great No.4, Stokowski's wonderfully defiant No.9 and Berglund's Sibelian readings of symphonies 4 and 6 (4 was No.1 choice on BBC 'Building a Library'). I'm sorry that Berglund never recorded a cycle. I'm looking forward to hearing the new Andrew Davis CD. I liked his earlier recording of 9 and 'Job' and his No.6 was very highly rated. Mustn't forget Maurice Abravanel's fine Utah Symphony 6 - he is one of the few to get the mysterious 'Epilogue' right - most conductors rush through it. Boult's LPO account is unrivalled here in my view. Just some rambling thoughts.

Thanks for the feedback, Jeffrey, but how do you feel overall about Haitink's cycle? As I mentioned earlier, it may be time I need to revisit his cycle. I agree with you about Elder's Pastoral, most certainly the best RVW he's done IMHO. All of the other works on that Elder/Halle disc (Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus, the Tallis Fantasia, and The Wasps' Overture) are also extremely well-done. Certainly one of my favorite RVW recordings to come out more recently. Also, what do you think of Handley's cycle with the LPO?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 25, 2017, 02:23:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 25, 2017, 06:10:48 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Jeffrey, but how do you feel overall about Haitink's cycle? As I mentioned earlier, it may be time I need to revisit his cycle. I agree with you about Elder's Pastoral, most certainly the best RVW he's done IMHO. All of the other works on that Elder/Halle disc (Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus, the Tallis Fantasia, and The Wasps' Overture) are also extremely well-done. Certainly one of my favorite RVW recordings to come out more recently. Also, what do you think of Handley's cycle with the LPO?
Like you John I think that I need to revisit the Haitink cycle. His performance of 'A Sea Symphony' is, as far as I'm concerned, in a class of its own and superior to any other. Hearing this performance resulted in me completely changing my mind about the work, although the best music is definitely in the final movement. I would not be without this performance. Haitink's 'Antartica' is also supposed to be outstanding but it is a while since I heard it. I also like his Symphony 6 which some reviewers are quite sniffy about. I am also revising my opinion of the Handley RLPO cycle. For years I thought that it was 'good - but not great' and would not have chosen any of his recordings as my first choice. However, I now think that the CD with symphonies 6 and 9 on is outstanding - especially for the clarity of the harps at the very end of Symphony 9. Otherwise I would say that the Handley recordings are 'all good but nothing special'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 25, 2017, 07:14:59 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 25, 2017, 02:23:52 PM
Like you John I think that I need to revisit the Haitink cycle. His performance of 'A Sea Symphony' is, as far as I'm concerned, in a class of its own and superior to any other. Hearing this performance resulted in me completely changing my mind about the work, although the best music is definitely in the final movement. I would not be without this performance. Haitink's 'Antartica' is also supposed to be outstanding but it is a while since I heard it. I also like his Symphony 6 which some reviewers are quite sniffy about. I am also revising my opinion of the Handley RLPO cycle. For years I thought that it was 'good - but not great' and would not have chosen any of his recordings as my first choice. However, I now think that the CD with symphonies 6 and 9 on is outstanding - especially for the clarity of the harps at the very end of Symphony 9. Otherwise I would say that the Handley recordings are 'all good but nothing special'.

Sorry, I meant Handley and the RLPO...my medication wasn't quite in effect whenever I made that last post. ::) ;) Yeah, Handley is definitely not a first-choice for me as those honors go to Previn, Boult (EMI), and Thomson, but Handley's cycle has a lot to admire about it as he seems to have a bit more of a cerebral approach to the music than say the white-hot intensity of Previn for example. I always thought Boult had a bit more of an intellectual approach to the music as well, so I see, naturally, that Handley is a successor of Boult. Thomson has a more modernist approach with a bit of an edge to the performances, which I quite appreciate, especially in the more modernistic symphonies like the 4th and 6th through the 9th, but Thomson did impress me greatly with his 3rd and 5th. Thomson just seems a bit more wild in his view of RVW and he seems to be able to accent certain sections in many of these symphonies that sometimes are glossed over.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 25, 2017, 07:46:28 PM
Let me ask my fellow RVW fanatics something: what do you guys think of David Willcocks' recordings of various choral works on EMI? Are the performances worth buying? How's the audio quality? Any kind of feedback would be appreciated as I've had my eyes on his recordings for quite some time. Thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 25, 2017, 09:54:07 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 25, 2017, 07:14:59 PM
Sorry, I meant Handley and the RLPO...my medication wasn't quite in effect whenever I made that last post. ::) ;) Yeah, Handley is definitely not a first-choice for me as those honors go to Previn, Boult (EMI), and Thomson, but Handley's cycle has a lot to admire about it as he seems to have a bit more of a cerebral approach to the music than say the white-hot intensity of Previn for example. I always thought Boult had a bit more of an intellectual approach to the music as well, so I see, naturally, that Handley is a successor of Boult. Thomson has a more modernist approach with a bit of an edge to the performances, which I quite appreciate, especially in the more modernistic symphonies like the 4th and 6th through the 9th, but Thomson did impress me greatly with his 3rd and 5th. Thomson just seems a bit more wild in his view of RVW and he seems to be able to accent certain sections in many of these symphonies that sometimes are glossed over.
Handley only recorded a complete cycle with the RLPO John although there were earlier versions of symphonies 2 and 6 with the LPO. The earlier 2 is excellent but the recording and performance of 6 is not nearly as good as the RLPO version. All those Willcocks recordings are outstanding as is his wonderful performance of Howells's 'Hymnus Paradisi'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 26, 2017, 04:04:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 25, 2017, 07:46:28 PM
Let me ask my fellow RVW fanatics something: what do you guys think of David Willcocks' recordings of various choral works on EMI? Are the performances worth buying? How's the audio quality? Any kind of feedback would be appreciated as I've had my eyes on his recordings for quite some time. Thanks.

Well, Willcocks was The Man (among numerous peers) in Anglican choral music, and that is exactly the milieu RVW was steeped in;  so those recordings are as idiomatic as idiomatic can be  8)

All the RVW in this box is conducted by Willcocks;  the audio quality is clear and fine (cathedral ambience, which is proper, not mic-in-larynx).  (And all the Holst & Finzi are also worthwhile.)

[asin]B004MSRDLU[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2017, 04:53:55 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 26, 2017, 04:04:02 AM
Well, Willcocks was The Man (among numerous peers) in Anglican choral music, and that is exactly the milieu RVW was steeped in;  so those recordings are as idiomatic as idiomatic can be  8)

All the RVW in this box is conducted by Willcocks;  the audio quality is clear and fine (cathedral ambience, which is proper, not mic-in-larynx).  (And all the Holst & Finzi are also worthwhile.)

[asin]B004MSRDLU[/asin]
Karl is right - that is a wonderful boxed set, not just for the VW but as it includes the best version of 'Dies Natalis' (Finzi) sung by Wilfred Brown with the composer's son conducting - also the VW rarity 'An Oxford Elegy' which I really like.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 26, 2017, 05:00:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 25, 2017, 09:54:07 PM
Handley only recorded a complete cycle with the RLPO John although there were earlier versions of symphonies 2 and 6 with the LPO. The earlier 2 is excellent but the recording and performance of 6 is not nearly as good as the RLPO version. All those Willcocks recordings are outstanding as is his wonderful performance of Howells's 'Hymnus Paradisi'.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 26, 2017, 04:04:02 AM
Well, Willcocks was The Man (among numerous peers) in Anglican choral music, and that is exactly the milieu RVW was steeped in;  so those recordings are as idiomatic as idiomatic can be  8)

All the RVW in this box is conducted by Willcocks;  the audio quality is clear and fine (cathedral ambience, which is proper, not mic-in-larynx).  (And all the Holst & Finzi are also worthwhile.)

[asin]B004MSRDLU[/asin]

Quote from: vandermolen on January 26, 2017, 04:53:55 AM
Karl is right - that is a wonderful boxed set, not just for the VW but as it includes the best version of 'Dies Natalis' (Finzi) sung by Wilfred Brown with the composer's son conducting - also the VW rarity 'An Oxford Elegy' which I really like.

Thanks so much for your feedback guys. I just bought that box set and it was the last one that Amazon had. Apparently, it's close to becoming OOP?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2017, 06:22:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 26, 2017, 05:00:40 AM
Thanks so much for your feedback guys. I just bought that box set and it was the last one that Amazon had. Apparently, it's close to becoming OOP?
You wont regret it John - one of the best and most imaginative boxed sets of British music. Nice cover art too.
Dies Natalis, especially in this recording is magical - especially the last movement.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 26, 2017, 06:24:26 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 26, 2017, 06:22:31 AM
You wont regret it John - one of the best and most imaginative boxed sets of British music. Nice cover art too.
Dies Natalis, especially in this recording is magical - especially the last movement.

Indeed. What's also nice about this set is I'll have another performance of 5 Mystical Songs, which I've really become quite enamored with recently. It doesn't hurt to have another Flos Campi either. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2017, 06:30:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 26, 2017, 06:24:26 AM
Indeed. What's also nice about this set is I'll have another performance of 5 Mystical Songs, which I've really become quite enamored with recently. It doesn't hurt to have another Flos Campi either. ;)
Both wonderful works and in my opinion this box contains the greatest performances of both scores.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 26, 2017, 06:50:46 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 26, 2017, 06:30:02 AM
Both wonderful works and in my opinion this box contains the greatest performances of both scores.

Wow, that's high praise indeed. Really looking forward to hearing them.

This brings me to a question I thought I'd ask: what are everyone's favorite performances of Flos Campi?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2017, 09:24:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 26, 2017, 06:50:46 AM
Wow, that's high praise indeed. Really looking forward to hearing them.

This brings me to a question I thought I'd ask: what are everyone's favorite performances of Flos Campi?

Willcocks, Cecil Aronowitz, Jacques Orchestra - same performance as the one in the EMI boxed set I think:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/CDs-Vinyl/Oxford-Elegy-Flos-Campi-Magnificat-Vaughan-Williams/B00008EU22/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1485454960&sr=1-2&keywords=flos+campi
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2017, 02:36:42 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2017, 09:58:20 AM
Extraordinary looking new release:
I'm always delighted and interested to hear Vaughan Williams's music performed by non-British orchestras.
[asin]B01MRZNUSN[/asin]
These are two of his greatest works I believe.
I had a great time listening to this CD tonight. The recording is the best I know with a spectacular organ entry and especially oily saxophones in the 'Job's Comforters' section of the ballet score. 'Job' gripped me from the start with a wonderfully reflective quality which reminded me of Boult's EMI recording. Boult was the dedicatee of Job and made three studio recordings. His performance of Job at the Royal Festival Hall in London on 12th October 1972 - the Centenary of Vaughan Williams's birth, was the first time I heard the work as my teenage self was in attendance at the concert (it was released on the Intaglio label). I think that this new Andrew Davis recording is the best recording and the performance was convincing throughout. I was slightly less convinced by Symphony 9. There is less of a sense of impending doom compared with the earlier Boult and Stokowski recordings and the opening of the last movement sounded a bit rushed. I would still argue that it is a fine, reflective performance of Vaughan Williams's great valedictory work and I will listen to it again. So, I would go for it if you're interested in these works. It certainly replaces Andrew Davis's identical coupling of these works (although played in reverse order) on the Teldec label. The Chandos CD is beautifully presented with a great photo of the elderly composer which I had never seen before.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 26, 2017, 06:13:43 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 26, 2017, 09:24:56 AM
Willcocks, Cecil Aronowitz, Jacques Orchestra - same performance as the one in the EMI boxed set I think:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/CDs-Vinyl/Oxford-Elegy-Flos-Campi-Magnificat-Vaughan-Williams/B00008EU22/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1485454960&sr=1-2&keywords=flos+campi

Yep, that performance is in that set, which I can't wait to hear! :)


Quote from: vandermolen on January 26, 2017, 02:36:42 PM
I had a great time listening to this CD tonight. The recording is the best I know with a spectacular organ entry and especially oily saxophones in the 'Job's Comforters' section of the ballet score. 'Job' gripped me from the start with a wonderfully reflective quality which reminded me of Boult's EMI recording. Boult was the dedicatee of Job and made three studio recordings. His performance of Job at the Royal Festival Hall in London on 12th October 1972 - the Centenary of Vaughan Williams's birth, was the first time I heard the work as my teenage self was in attendance at the concert (it was released on the Intaglio label). I think that this new Andrew Davis recording is the best recording and the performance was convincing throughout. I was slightly less convinced by Symphony 9. There is less of a sense of impending doom compared with the earlier Boult and Stokowski recordings and the opening of the last movement sounded a bit rushed. I would still argue that it is a fine, reflective performance of Vaughan Williams's great valedictory work and I will listen to it again. So, I would go for it if you're interested in these works. It certainly replaces Andrew Davis's identical coupling of these works (although played in reverse order) on the Teldec label. The Chandos CD is beautifully presented with a great photo of the elderly composer which I had never seen before.

Great news, Jeffrey! I just received this CD in the mail today. Looking forward to digging into it. Probably over the weekend. Job is one of my favorite works...ever. Great to his Job impressed you. I knew the 9th was going to be a tougher sell considering how you, and another member whose name slips me at the moment, were talking about the shorter timing for the final movement. It's good to know that it wasn't a complete failure and that it warrants repeat listening. So a thumbs up all-around then. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2017, 10:39:36 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 26, 2017, 06:13:43 PM
Yep, that performance is in that set, which I can't wait to hear! :)


Great news, Jeffrey! I just received this CD in the mail today. Looking forward to digging into it. Probably over the weekend. Job is one of my favorite works...ever. Great to his Job impressed you. I knew the 9th was going to be a tougher sell considering how you, and another member whose name slips me at the moment, were talking about the shorter timing for the final movement. It's good to know that it wasn't a complete failure and that it warrants repeat listening. So a thumbs up all-around then. 8)
I'll be looking forward to hearing your view of it John.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2017, 06:48:41 PM
Here's another question: aside from Hickox's outstanding recording of the original A London Symphony, what do you guys think of his other Chandos recordings of the symphonies? I own them all and haven't listened to them in years.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2017, 07:08:26 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2017, 07:07:32 PM
I was going to wait until Sunday, but now playing:

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH5180.jpg)

I'm listening to Job only from this recording right now and it's finishing up. I'd say it's a good performance, but it doesn't displace Boult (EMI) or Hickox (EMI). This performance doesn't seem that special or it feels like there's something missing. One of my favorite moments in the whole ballet: Jobs' Dream - Dance of Plague, Pestilence, Famine, and Battle seems odd. This is where Hickox/Bournemouth is much more ravishing. Jeffrey was right about the powerful organ in Dance of Job's Comforters - Job's Curse - A Vision of Satan, but that's about all this performance has going for it. Everything sounds a bit ho-hum to me and not too involving --- I'd even say it sounds rather lifeless. I'm not sure if it's because I'm tired or what, but I keep asking myself where's the magic at in this performance? I just don't hear it. I wasn't impressed with Andrew Davis' Teldec cycle, I suppose I was being a bit too optimistic about this new recording from him.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 27, 2017, 11:58:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2017, 07:08:26 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread:
Thanks for the feedback John. I liked the opening of Job and the spectacular organ entry and maybe enjoyed it a bit more than you did but I largely agree with you. As in the Ninth Symphony there are sections which seem too fast - the lovely Altar Dance towards the end for example. Let us know what you think of Symphony 9.
As for the Hickox recordings - his No.6 was chosen as top choice by BBC Building a Library but I remember thinking that it was nothing special - I must listen to it again when I can hear it (my ears are currently blocked with wax from swimming but I'm having them syringed out on Monday - too much information I know  :o). His 1913 version of A London Symphony is one of my all time favourite CDs - wonderful in every respect and it was a privilege to attend the first performance of this version since, I guess, around 1936 in London. I even got to have a brief conversation with Richard Hickox when I asked him to sign the programme for me. I love the CD with Symphony 5, not just for the very good performance but for the fascinating fill-ups on the disc - 'The Pilgrim's Pavement' etc - a lovely disc in all respects. No.4 is very good too along with the Mass, although Berglund and Boult EMI remain my favourites here (your compatriots Bernstein and Mitropolous are terrific too). A Pastoral Symphony was also very good but ages since I listened to it - Previn remains my favourite by far. Nothing special about No.8 as far as I recall - again Previn's version is my favourite. For A Sea Symphony I prefer the Haitink which transformed my opinion of the work. Davis will presumably record Sinfonia Antartica to complete this Chandos cycle; however as a download I recall that they included Bryden Thomson's recordings of symphonies 9 and 7 as a complete cycle with the Hickox and I suspect that Bryden Thomson's performances might turn out to be better than Andrew Davis's - however, we will wait to see what he makes of Antartica and Andrew Davis recorded a very good version of Vaughan Williams's elusive Sixth Symphony on Teldec. I still enjoyed the new CD of 'Job' and Symphony 9 and have no regrets about getting it, especially for the excellent recording and the great photo of VW!. I will listen to it again next week.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 28, 2017, 06:01:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 27, 2017, 11:58:43 PM
Thanks for the feedback John. I liked the opening of Job and the spectacular organ entry and maybe enjoyed it a bit more than you did but I largely agree with you. As in the Ninth Symphony there are sections which seem too fast - the lovely Altar Dance towards the end for example. Let us know what you think of Symphony 9.
As for the Hickox recordings - his No.6 was chosen as top choice by BBC Building a Library but I remember thinking that it was nothing special - I must listen to it again when I can hear it (my ears are currently blocked with wax from swimming but I'm having them syringed out on Monday - too much information I know  :o). His 1913 version of A London Symphony is one of my all time favourite CDs - wonderful in every respect and it was a privilege to attend the first performance of this version since, I guess, around 1936 in London. I even got to have a brief conversation with Richard Hickox when I asked him to sign the programme for me. I love the CD with Symphony 5, not just for the very good performance but for the fascinating fill-ups on the disc - 'The Pilgrim's Pavement' etc - a lovely disc in all respects. No.4 is very good too along with the Mass, although Berglund and Boult EMI remain my favourites here (your compatriots Bernstein and Mitropolous are terrific too). A Pastoral Symphony was also very good but ages since I listened to it - Previn remains my favourite by far. Nothing special about No.8 as far as I recall - again Previn's version is my favourite. For A Sea Symphony I prefer the Haitink which transformed my opinion of the work. Davis will presumably record Sinfonia Antartica to complete this Chandos cycle; however as a download I recall that they included Bryden Thomson's recordings of symphonies 9 and 7 as a complete cycle with the Hickox and I suspect that Bryden Thomson's performances might turn out to be better than Andrew Davis's - however, we will wait to see what he makes of Antartica and Andrew Davis recorded a very good version of Vaughan Williams's elusive Sixth Symphony on Teldec. I still enjoyed the new CD of 'Job' and Symphony 9 and have no regrets about getting it, especially for the excellent recording and the great photo of VW!. I will listen to it again next week.

I'll have to revisit Davis' Job again, but not for quite some time as my reaction was so lukewarm. I guess I'm rather biased when it comes to RVW. Many newer performances of his music just seem to lack that certain magic I'm used to hearing from the older performances and I suppose these particular older performances are stamped deep into my psyche at this point, but, as always, these things are so subjective from one person to another. I wish Thomson had recorded Job. :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on January 28, 2017, 09:38:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2017, 10:57:44 PM
... I never liked A Sea Symphony until I heard the Haitink which was a complete revelation to me. ...

Robert Spano / Atlanta SO for A Sea Symphony like you've never heard it before.  I have always liked this symphony (more than some people on this board it seems) and I don't mind what Spano does with it one bit.  Though I agree that Haitink is the obvious go-to for this music.  Spano's VW 5th is fairly awful, by the way.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 28, 2017, 10:23:15 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 28, 2017, 09:38:57 AM
Robert Spano / Atlanta SO for A Sea Symphony like you've never heard it before.  I have always liked this symphony (more than some people on this board it seems) and I don't mind what Spano does with it one bit.  Though I agree that Haitink is the obvious go-to for this music.  Spano's VW 5th is fairly awful, by the way.
Ok thanks - will look out for the Spano performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 28, 2017, 10:43:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2017, 10:46:14 PMwe reassert British values. ;D
So do we.  ;)
(http://brightcove04.o.brightcove.com/4221396001/4221396001_4940819196001_4940802291001-vs.jpg?pubId=4221396001)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 28, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Several recommendations of the "craggy" Violin Sonata in the polling thread caused me to YouTube it. I like it, very intense piece. Any recommendations for a recording?

I see it on both EMI and Hyperion, both with nearly identical programs of chamber music. Anyone preferences for one or the other?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 28, 2017, 04:13:14 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 28, 2017, 09:38:57 AM
Robert Spano / Atlanta SO for A Sea Symphony like you've never heard it before.  I have always liked this symphony (more than some people on this board it seems) and I don't mind what Spano does with it one bit.  Though I agree that Haitink is the obvious go-to for this music.  Spano's VW 5th is fairly awful, by the way.

I consider Haitink's No. 1 perfection with no further reason to look elsewhere.  Would Spano/ASO make me reconsider?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 28, 2017, 07:00:40 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 28, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Several recommendations of the "craggy" Violin Sonata in the polling thread caused me to YouTube it. I like it, very intense piece. Any recommendations for a recording?

I see it on both EMI and Hyperion, both with nearly identical programs of chamber music. Anyone preferences for one or the other?

I only own the Hyperion disc (w/ the Nash Ensemble), but it's excellent and I haven't really bothered to look for another performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 28, 2017, 08:31:34 PM
Quote from: Christo on January 28, 2017, 10:43:48 AM
So do we.  ;)
(http://brightcove04.o.brightcove.com/4221396001/4221396001_4940819196001_4940802291001-vs.jpg?pubId=4221396001)

https://youtu.be/IRfluaMKoOY

;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 28, 2017, 08:32:17 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2017, 04:13:14 PM
I consider Haitink's No. 1 perfection with no further reason to look elsewhere.  Would Spano/ASO make me reconsider?

I'd be curious to know what you think of Haitink's RVW cycle in general, relm1?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 28, 2017, 08:35:45 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 28, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Several recommendations of the "craggy" Violin Sonata in the polling thread caused me to YouTube it. I like it, very intense piece. Any recommendations for a recording?

I see it on both EMI and Hyperion, both with nearly identical programs of chamber music. Anyone preferences for one or the other?
[asin]B0000241EK[/asin]
This is my favourite CD of VW's chamber music but the one recommended by John (MI) is excellent too. Also this one was my first encounter with the Violin Sonata on LP which probably influences my choice. It is available pretty cheaply second-hand on Amazon US and UK. The String Quartet 2 is excellent as well. I think that Vaughan Williams's chamber music is underrated.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 28, 2017, 08:38:50 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 28, 2017, 08:35:45 PM
[asin]B0000241EK[/asin]

Got to love Hugh Bean. His Lark (w/ Boult) is still a highlight for me seven years later.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 28, 2017, 08:41:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 28, 2017, 08:38:50 PM
Got to love Hugh Bean. His Lark (w/ Boult) is still a highlight for me seven years later.
Me too - it remains my favourite performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 28, 2017, 08:45:44 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 28, 2017, 08:41:37 PM
Me too - it remains my favourite performance.

8)

I'm listening to the John Shirley-Quirk/Willcocks performance of 5 Mystical Songs now and enjoying it immensely.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 29, 2017, 01:22:58 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 28, 2017, 08:45:44 PM
8)

I'm listening to the John Shirley-Quirk/Willcocks performance of 5 Mystical Songs now and enjoying it immensely.

Another greatest performance - clearly so I think, especially in 'Love bade me welcome...' And in the wonderfully inspiriting finale. It was one of my earliest contacts with the music of VW - my mother had an LP of music from King's College, Cambridge. When that track came on both my brother and I, from different rooms in my parent's flat (apartment) came rushing in to ask what the music was. I must have been about 15 or 16.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2017, 05:40:41 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 29, 2017, 01:22:58 AM
Another greatest performance - clearly so I think, especially in 'Love bade me welcome...' And in the wonderfully inspiriting finale. It was one of my earliest contacts with the music of VW - my mother had an LP of music from King's College, Cambridge. When that track came on both my brother and I, from different rooms in my parent's flat (apartment) came rushing in to ask what the music was. I must have been about 15 or 16.

Yes! Love Bad Me Welcome is absolutely heart-rendering. That's a lovely story, btw. I would have come rushing into the room as well if I had heard it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 29, 2017, 06:03:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2017, 05:40:41 AM
Yes! Love Bad Me Welcome is absolutely heart-rendering. That's a lovely story, btw. I would have come rushing into the room as well if I had heard it.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 29, 2017, 01:34:34 PM
Quote from: Oates on January 19, 2017, 07:25:24 AM
Another new RVW release:




https://www.amazon.co.uk/Piano-Music-Ralph-Vaughan-Williams/dp/B01NALGLYL/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1484842921&sr=1-8&keywords=vaughan+williams
I'm enjoying this CD of VW's piano music very much. The odd thing is that the beautiful 'Lake in the Mountains' is over a minute and a half longer than the version on Hyperion and the work only lasts about five minutes anyway. I found it most disconcerting but will listen to both versions tomorrow to see which one I prefer. The 'Introduction and Fugue' is very good - first recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2017, 09:41:40 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the Cecil Aronowitz/Willcocks/Jacques Orchestra performance of Flos Campi is the best one I've heard. There's an emotional honesty and depth in this performance that I find absolutely mesmerizing. This is a work that has always been of interest to me as it contains so many moods. Poetical, sumptuous, passionate, sensual are all adjectives that I'd use to describe this particular masterpiece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 29, 2017, 11:14:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2017, 09:41:40 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the Cecil Aronowitz/Willcocks/Jacques Orchestra performance of Flos Campi is the best one I've heard. There's an emotional honesty and depth in this performance that I find absolutely mesmerizing. This is a work that has always been of interest to me as it contains so many moods. Poetical, sumptuous, passionate, sensual are all adjectives that I'd use to describe this particular masterpiece.
I love that performance. The original LP featured Flos Campi, An Oxford Elegy and Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus - a wonderful disc! I asked my parents to get it for me one Christmas - happy memories.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 30, 2017, 06:54:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 27, 2017, 11:58:43 PM
(my ears are currently blocked with wax from swimming but I'm having them syringed out on Monday - too much information I know  :o)

Quote from: 007See you later, irrigator.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 30, 2017, 07:40:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 30, 2017, 06:54:30 AM


OT

Hehe. Coincidentally I just returned from the nurse. I now have super-acute hearing - like having a superpower.
8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 30, 2017, 07:57:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 30, 2017, 07:40:34 AM
OT
Hehe. Coincidentally I just returned from the nurse. I now have super-acute hearing - like having a superpower.
8)

The Master himself used a similar device: (http://www.theartsdesk.com/sites/default/files/images/stories/CLASSICAL/geoff_brown/Ralph%2BVaughan%2BWilliams%2B2634428%20cropped%20with%20ear%20trumpet.jpg) 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on January 30, 2017, 08:02:46 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2017, 04:13:14 PM
I consider Haitink's No. 1 perfection with no further reason to look elsewhere.  Would Spano/ASO make me reconsider?

I would say it could only ever be an 'alternative' version - but an interesting one.  It's taken quite a bit faster than I have heard elsewhere, and the chorus sings with a perceptible American twang - but when you think about it, that's not inappropriate.

[asin]B00006AAV7[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 30, 2017, 08:52:10 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 30, 2017, 07:40:34 AM
OT

Hehe. Coincidentally I just returned from the nurse. I now have super-acute hearing - like having a superpower.
8)

Success!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2017, 11:53:03 AM
Quote from: Christo on January 30, 2017, 07:57:58 AM
The Master himself used a similar device: (http://www.theartsdesk.com/sites/default/files/images/stories/CLASSICAL/geoff_brown/Ralph%2BVaughan%2BWilliams%2B2634428%20cropped%20with%20ear%20trumpet.jpg) 8)

Great photo! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 30, 2017, 12:45:47 PM
Quote from: Christo on January 30, 2017, 07:57:58 AM
The Master himself used a similar device: (http://www.theartsdesk.com/sites/default/files/images/stories/CLASSICAL/geoff_brown/Ralph%2BVaughan%2BWilliams%2B2634428%20cropped%20with%20ear%20trumpet.jpg) 8)
A second uncannily accurate photo today. That state of the art hearing device is exactly what the nurse gave me so that I could continue to listen to my VW collection. You must be psychic!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 30, 2017, 04:52:12 PM
Quote from: Christo on January 30, 2017, 07:57:58 AM
The Master himself used a similar device: (http://www.theartsdesk.com/sites/default/files/images/stories/CLASSICAL/geoff_brown/Ralph%2BVaughan%2BWilliams%2B2634428%20cropped%20with%20ear%20trumpet.jpg) 8)
What is the gadget in his left ear?  Did he get stereo amplification?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2017, 05:50:14 PM
I'd like to read some opinions of Haitink's RVW cycle for those that have heard the cycle. What are the standout performances?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 30, 2017, 09:22:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 30, 2017, 05:50:14 PMI'd like to read some opinions of Haitink's RVW cycle for those that have heard the cycle. What are the standout performances?
Perhaps you better start with this legendary Hurwitzer review of Nos. 8 & 9: http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6004/  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2017, 09:24:31 PM
Quote from: Christo on January 30, 2017, 09:22:52 PM
Perhaps you better start with this legendary Hurwitzer review of Nos. 8 & 9: http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6004/  :D

Ouch! ;D I'm not a particularly big fan of Haitink's RVW (if memory serves me correctly here), but that's quite a harsh review.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 30, 2017, 09:32:43 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 30, 2017, 04:52:12 PMWhat is the gadget in his left ear?  Did he get stereo amplification?
At least some sort of amplification, I guess. It's also shown on his famous 1958 portrait by Gerald Kelly (now in the National Gallery):
(http://images.npg.org.uk/800_800/9/0/mw06490.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 30, 2017, 10:29:08 PM
Quote from: Christo on January 30, 2017, 09:32:43 PM
At least some sort of amplification, I guess. It's also shown on his famous 1958 portrait by Gerald Kelly (now in the National Gallery):
(http://images.npg.org.uk/800_800/9/0/mw06490.jpg)
A wonderful painting - one of several by Sir Gerald Kelly. Now, sadly not on display at the National Portrait Gallery but in their storage. In fact they have no painting or sculpture or photo of VW on display. I wrote to complain ('angry and disgusted of Tunbridge Wells etc') that they had no place for VW but they did have space for Sir Oswald Mosley the leader of the BUF (British Union of Fascists). There is no VW museum in the UK either.  >:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 30, 2017, 11:08:49 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 30, 2017, 05:50:14 PM
I'd like to read some opinions of Haitink's RVW cycle for those that have heard the cycle. What are the standout performances?
For me John 'A Sea Symphony' is the standout performance but I know that 7 'Antartica' is highly rated too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 31, 2017, 05:37:34 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 30, 2017, 11:08:49 PM
For me John 'A Sea Symphony' is the standout performance but I know that 7 'Antartica' is highly rated too.

Yeah, I must revisit Haitink's A Sea Symphony at least.

Here's another question: Boult or Hickox in The Pilgrim's Progress?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 31, 2017, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2017, 05:37:34 AM
Yeah, I must revisit Haitink's A Sea Symphony at least.

Here's another question: Boult or Hickox in The Pilgrim's Progress?

Both good and I've seen Hickox doing it live. I think you like more recent recordings so maybe go for Hickox but the Boult is very moving too and might be cheaper. I think you'll be happy with either.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 31, 2017, 06:04:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 31, 2017, 05:48:08 AM
Both good and I've seen Hickox doing it live. I think you like more recent recordings so maybe go for Hickox but the Boult is very moving too and might be cheaper. I think you'll be happy with either.

Thanks, Jeffrey. I own both recordings. I'll probably go with Boult in the end, because I do love his conducting a lot, especially in RVW. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 31, 2017, 06:39:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 30, 2017, 05:50:14 PM
I'd like to read some opinions of Haitink's RVW cycle for those that have heard the cycle. What are the standout performances?

Since you and I seldom agree about VW recordings, take this with a grain of salt. For me 1, 3, 5, 7, 8 and 9 are all outstanding in Haitink's very individual conceptions of RVW's symphonies (in general, slow and grave). Here are some reviews from Gramophone and MusicWeb, including a review of 8 & 9 to counter the Hurwitzer:

"A friendly word of warning to VW fans everywhere: Haitink will make you think again. No 'little' Eighth, this, rather an unapologetically bigscale conception, full of doughty integrity and always seeking out the intuitive logic that binds VW's symphonic thinking. If the Scherzo alla marcia falls short in terms of twinkling good humour here, the preceding, inimitably subtitled Variazioni senza tema unfolds with a revelatory sweep and purposefulness.

Likewise, the finale by and large forfeits "celebratory pomp and glitter in favour of a sinewy, intriguingly defiant strength entirely consistent with Haitink's patient view as a whole. Most distinctive of all is the sublime Cavatina for strings: very measured, raptly concentrated and imbued with a lofty serenity to relate it all the more movingly to the great Romanza of VW's Fifth Symphony[....]Turning to the craggy, questing Ninth [...]I'm inclined to rate Haitink's resplendent new version as the finest yet, a thrillingly convinced and convincing demonstration of the timeless universality of VWs masterpiece. I love the clear-sighted dedication and stoic grandeur of the opening Moderato maestoso. Not only is Haitink meticulously faithful to both the letter and spirit of the score, VW's argument evolves with a nobility and wholeness that grip from first measure to last. Those if tenuto strings at Fig 2 (1'02") in the second movement have just the right 'mud on boots' feel to them, and. like Handley before him, Haitink doesn't overplay his hand in the central lyrical episode (its chaste beauty all the more affecting as a consequence). The hobgoblins of the Scherzo cackle with plenty of malevolent glee, yet Haitink proves just as tenderly responsive to the strings' ravishing cantabile sostenuto dialogue between Figs 30 and 34 (from 406" to 442"). It's in the awesome final movement, though, where Haitink really surpasses himself: VW's,, monolithic vision is surveyed with an organial power and cumulative impact that left this listener, at any rate, dumb struck with admiration and gratitude."


"...his version of the Fifth is not for those who know already how they want the piece to sound, because he challenges most preconceptions. His is a very dark reading, even grave. One way in which he achieves this is through tempo: at over forty-three minutes this is the slowest Fifth on record. Only Previn takes more time than Haitink in the first movement, but his view is serene rather than grave. Haitink displays even more freedom of tempo, even more tendency to ritenuto and rallentando, leading us across an important and imposing landscape at a pace which is emphatically not, may it be said, moderato. His Allegro is not fast either, but contrasts well with the preceding section all the same. There is little or no acceleration as he makes his way to a quite stunningly powerful central climax, followed by a "tutta forza" freer in tempo than usual and a climax held back in an extreme way which I would usually resist but which, perhaps perversely, I find totally convincing here, in the context of Haitink's overall view of the movement."

"Clocking in at an eyebrow-raising 39:01 overall, Bernard Haitink's is the most intrepidly spacious Pastoral yet. That it's also one of the most sheerly gripping is a tribute both to the superlative contribution of the LPO as well as the towering humanity of the great Dutch maestro's patient view. EMI's top-notch sound captures every strand in the texture with the utmost realism and does full justice to Haitink's scrupulous control of dynamics (yes, there is a world of difference between pp and ppp, he seems to be reminding us time and again). Haitink taps into a vein of a stoic grandeur in the twilit threnody of the second movement that I find profoundly affecting. The Scherzo is invested with a weighty gravitas, its demeanour by turns intimidatingly sombre and grudgingly jubilant; listen out for the rasp of principal clarinet at the very top of its range as the orchestra is at last granted its full head either side of fig B (046'). The finale, in which Amanda Roocroft's smoky, mezzo-ish timbre casts a remote, yet alluring spell, allies epic breadth to keen concentration.


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 31, 2017, 07:00:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 31, 2017, 06:39:21 AM
Since you and I seldom agree about VW recordings, take this with a grain of salt. For me 1, 3, 5, 7, 8 and 9 are all outstanding in Haitink's very individual conceptions of RVW's symphonies (in general, slow and grave). Here are some reviews from Gramophone and MusicWeb, including a review of 8 & 9 to counter the Hurwitzer:

"A friendly word of warning to VW fans everywhere: Haitink will make you think again. No 'little' Eighth, this, rather an unapologetically bigscale conception, full of doughty integrity and always seeking out the intuitive logic that binds VW's symphonic thinking. If the Scherzo alla marcia falls short in terms of twinkling good humour here, the preceding, inimitably subtitled Variazioni senza tema unfolds with a revelatory sweep and purposefulness.

Likewise, the finale by and large forfeits "celebratory pomp and glitter in favour of a sinewy, intriguingly defiant strength entirely consistent with Haitink's patient view as a whole. Most distinctive of all is the sublime Cavatina for strings: very measured, raptly concentrated and imbued with a lofty serenity to relate it all the more movingly to the great Romanza of VW's Fifth Symphony[....]Turning to the craggy, questing Ninth [...]I'm inclined to rate Haitink's resplendent new version as the finest yet, a thrillingly convinced and convincing demonstration of the timeless universality of VWs masterpiece. I love the clear-sighted dedication and stoic grandeur of the opening Moderato maestoso. Not only is Haitink meticulously faithful to both the letter and spirit of the score, VW's argument evolves with a nobility and wholeness that grip from first measure to last. Those if tenuto strings at Fig 2 (1'02") in the second movement have just the right 'mud on boots' feel to them, and. like Handley before him, Haitink doesn't overplay his hand in the central lyrical episode (its chaste beauty all the more affecting as a consequence). The hobgoblins of the Scherzo cackle with plenty of malevolent glee, yet Haitink proves just as tenderly responsive to the strings' ravishing cantabile sostenuto dialogue between Figs 30 and 34 (from 406" to 442"). It's in the awesome final movement, though, where Haitink really surpasses himself: VW's,, monolithic vision is surveyed with an organial power and cumulative impact that left this listener, at any rate, dumb struck with admiration and gratitude."


"...his version of the Fifth is not for those who know already how they want the piece to sound, because he challenges most preconceptions. His is a very dark reading, even grave. One way in which he achieves this is through tempo: at over forty-three minutes this is the slowest Fifth on record. Only Previn takes more time than Haitink in the first movement, but his view is serene rather than grave. Haitink displays even more freedom of tempo, even more tendency to ritenuto and rallentando, leading us across an important and imposing landscape at a pace which is emphatically not, may it be said, moderato. His Allegro is not fast either, but contrasts well with the preceding section all the same. There is little or no acceleration as he makes his way to a quite stunningly powerful central climax, followed by a "tutta forza" freer in tempo than usual and a climax held back in an extreme way which I would usually resist but which, perhaps perversely, I find totally convincing here, in the context of Haitink's overall view of the movement."

"Clocking in at an eyebrow-raising 39:01 overall, Bernard Haitink's is the most intrepidly spacious Pastoral yet. That it's also one of the most sheerly gripping is a tribute both to the superlative contribution of the LPO as well as the towering humanity of the great Dutch maestro's patient view. EMI's top-notch sound captures every strand in the texture with the utmost realism and does full justice to Haitink's scrupulous control of dynamics (yes, there is a world of difference between pp and ppp, he seems to be reminding us time and again). Haitink taps into a vein of a stoic grandeur in the twilit threnody of the second movement that I find profoundly affecting. The Scherzo is invested with a weighty gravitas, its demeanour by turns intimidatingly sombre and grudgingly jubilant; listen out for the rasp of principal clarinet at the very top of its range as the orchestra is at last granted its full head either side of fig B (046'). The finale, in which Amanda Roocroft's smoky, mezzo-ish timbre casts a remote, yet alluring spell, allies epic breadth to keen concentration.

Thanks for chiming in, Sarge.  It's been too long since I listened to the set, so I did not feel comfortable writing up a proper opinion, myself.  And I doubt I'm very helpful with, I like 'em all!   8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 31, 2017, 07:16:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 31, 2017, 06:39:21 AM
Since you and I seldom agree about VW recordings, take this with a grain of salt. For me 1, 3, 5, 7, 8 and 9 are all outstanding in Haitink's very individual conceptions of RVW's symphonies (in general, slow and grave). Here are some reviews from Gramophone and MusicWeb, including a review of 8 & 9 to counter the Hurwitzer:

"A friendly word of warning to VW fans everywhere: Haitink will make you think again. No 'little' Eighth, this, rather an unapologetically bigscale conception, full of doughty integrity and always seeking out the intuitive logic that binds VW's symphonic thinking. If the Scherzo alla marcia falls short in terms of twinkling good humour here, the preceding, inimitably subtitled Variazioni senza tema unfolds with a revelatory sweep and purposefulness.

Likewise, the finale by and large forfeits "celebratory pomp and glitter in favour of a sinewy, intriguingly defiant strength entirely consistent with Haitink's patient view as a whole. Most distinctive of all is the sublime Cavatina for strings: very measured, raptly concentrated and imbued with a lofty serenity to relate it all the more movingly to the great Romanza of VW's Fifth Symphony[....]Turning to the craggy, questing Ninth [...]I'm inclined to rate Haitink's resplendent new version as the finest yet, a thrillingly convinced and convincing demonstration of the timeless universality of VWs masterpiece. I love the clear-sighted dedication and stoic grandeur of the opening Moderato maestoso. Not only is Haitink meticulously faithful to both the letter and spirit of the score, VW's argument evolves with a nobility and wholeness that grip from first measure to last. Those if tenuto strings at Fig 2 (1'02") in the second movement have just the right 'mud on boots' feel to them, and. like Handley before him, Haitink doesn't overplay his hand in the central lyrical episode (its chaste beauty all the more affecting as a consequence). The hobgoblins of the Scherzo cackle with plenty of malevolent glee, yet Haitink proves just as tenderly responsive to the strings' ravishing cantabile sostenuto dialogue between Figs 30 and 34 (from 406" to 442"). It's in the awesome final movement, though, where Haitink really surpasses himself: VW's,, monolithic vision is surveyed with an organial power and cumulative impact that left this listener, at any rate, dumb struck with admiration and gratitude."


"...his version of the Fifth is not for those who know already how they want the piece to sound, because he challenges most preconceptions. His is a very dark reading, even grave. One way in which he achieves this is through tempo: at over forty-three minutes this is the slowest Fifth on record. Only Previn takes more time than Haitink in the first movement, but his view is serene rather than grave. Haitink displays even more freedom of tempo, even more tendency to ritenuto and rallentando, leading us across an important and imposing landscape at a pace which is emphatically not, may it be said, moderato. His Allegro is not fast either, but contrasts well with the preceding section all the same. There is little or no acceleration as he makes his way to a quite stunningly powerful central climax, followed by a "tutta forza" freer in tempo than usual and a climax held back in an extreme way which I would usually resist but which, perhaps perversely, I find totally convincing here, in the context of Haitink's overall view of the movement."

"Clocking in at an eyebrow-raising 39:01 overall, Bernard Haitink's is the most intrepidly spacious Pastoral yet. That it's also one of the most sheerly gripping is a tribute both to the superlative contribution of the LPO as well as the towering humanity of the great Dutch maestro's patient view. EMI's top-notch sound captures every strand in the texture with the utmost realism and does full justice to Haitink's scrupulous control of dynamics (yes, there is a world of difference between pp and ppp, he seems to be reminding us time and again). Haitink taps into a vein of a stoic grandeur in the twilit threnody of the second movement that I find profoundly affecting. The Scherzo is invested with a weighty gravitas, its demeanour by turns intimidatingly sombre and grudgingly jubilant; listen out for the rasp of principal clarinet at the very top of its range as the orchestra is at last granted its full head either side of fig B (046'). The finale, in which Amanda Roocroft's smoky, mezzo-ish timbre casts a remote, yet alluring spell, allies epic breadth to keen concentration.

Most interesting! Thanks for this, Sarge. I suppose I really should revisit Haitink's RVW now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on February 03, 2017, 03:03:49 PM
I like Haitink's VW. I was a sceptic at first;although I knew his Sinfonia Antartica.......one of the two cd's I ever heard (I can't rememember what the other one was) via the local library. Sarge's post make me want to hear his 3 & 5! This one is very different to Boult's. The first recording I ever heard of these symphonies.

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/dinasman/51Dlb9rCGUL_zpsszdfnhwg.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on February 03, 2017, 03:10:26 PM
Regarding the Sea Symphony. Haitink's Sea Symphony is the one that finally convinced me. I quite liked the Sea Symphony before;but there were points where I was looking at the display on the mini hi-fi,and thinking,how much longer is this going to go on?! Haitink's just seemed to grab my attention and hold it  from start to finish!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 03, 2017, 04:18:21 PM
Haitink is very hit or miss.  His No. 9 is terrible and his No. 1 is perfection.  I think part of the problem is spanned so many decades that the conductor, orchestra, business evolved during the cycle.  You don't get a consistent read.  I would suggest other than No. 1, avoid the cycle. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 03, 2017, 04:34:57 PM


Quote from: relm1 on February 03, 2017, 04:18:21 PM
...  You don't get a consistent read.  I would suggest other than No. 1, avoid the cycle.


Well, opinion is sharply divided!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 03, 2017, 06:27:31 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 03, 2017, 04:34:57 PMWell, opinion is sharply divided!

Of course, the Hurwitzer loathes Haitink's RVW. For whatever that's worth. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on February 04, 2017, 02:14:55 AM
It's nice to know that what I'm listening to is only terrible!! ??? :o ;D Hm! I like his Ninth! ::) Although,I think the Boult recording does has more of that,hard to pin down quality,called atmosphere.
Of course,I could change my mind?!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 04, 2017, 03:49:32 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 03, 2017, 03:10:26 PM
Regarding the Sea Symphony. Haitink's Sea Symphony is the one that finally convinced me. I quite liked the Sea Symphony before;but there were points where I was looking at the display on the mini hi-fi,and thinking,how much longer is this going to go on?! Haitink's just seemed to grab my attention and hold it  from start to finish!
This was exactly my experience also.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 04, 2017, 05:27:53 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 04, 2017, 02:14:55 AM
It's nice to know that what I'm listening to is only terrible!! ??? :o ;D Hm! I like his Ninth! ::) Although,I think the Boult recording does has more of that,hard to pin down quality,called atmosphere.
Of course,I could change my mind?!

As Karl mentioned, opinion is sharply divided on Haitink's RVW it seems. I think why some listeners didn't care much for the cycle is many of the performances were generally slower than what they're accustomed to hearing. You would never mistake Boult for Haitink or vice versa. For me, it's not that the more swifter approach makes RVW sound better, it's that there needs to be drive in the performance for the music to work and function. I'm all for a flexible approach to tempi, but not at the expense of forward momentum to where a slower tempo makes the music drag unnecessarily. As I said before, I might end up liking Haitink's approach now as it's been years since I've heard any of his performances. I plan on doing a few run-throughs of some symphonies. I think I'll listen to Symphonies Nos. 4-6 first. If he handles this middle trilogy to my liking, then I'll listen to the rest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 05, 2017, 12:03:12 PM
Flos Campi

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0n9IExEpmh8/S8m5Ou7dcYI/AAAAAAAAUO4/jm9L01ZMDPY/s1600/In+Poppyland904.jpg)

Vaughan Williams played the viola, and frequently professed it was his favorite instrument. Along with the Suite for viola and orchestra of 1934, his most significant work for the instrument is the unusual Flos Campi (Flower of the Field), which combines the viola with a spare orchestral backing of strings, winds, tabor, and celesta, along with a mixed choir that sings wordlessly. It was first performed on October 10, 1925, in London, with violist Lionel Tertis, voices from the Royal College of Music, and the Queen's Hall Orchestra conducted by Sir Henry Wood. The reaction was mixed, and even such close friends of the composer as Gustav Holst admitted themselves puzzled by this subtle and voluptuous work.

In a program note for a 1927 performance, Vaughan Williams admitted "The title Flos Campi was taken by some to connote an atmosphere of 'buttercups and daisies....'" This is, in fact, far from the atmosphere of this work. Each of its six movements is headed by a quotation from the Old Testament's Song of Solomon, and it is the passionate quality of that text which informs Flos Campi. The work opens with the juxtaposition of viola and oboe, both playing melodically but in different keys, creating palpable tension. This opening movement is languorous and mysterious, its associated text speaking of the sickness of love, of how it is a "lily among thorns." Nature springs to life in the second movement, with the "singing of birds" and the "voice of the turtle." But the beloved is not present, and the third movement is passionate and agitated, with the viola accompanied mostly by the women of the choir. Men "expert in war" are at Solomon's bed in the vigorous fourth-movement march, in which the violist has an opportunity for some virtuoso display. The music builds to a rather tense climax, at which point we hear the murmuring of voices, over which the viola soars longingly. The orchestra takes up this music in a more peaceful strain, and the choir sings in sweet polyphony. The opening viola-oboe duet returns, but its ambivalence is resolved as the melodic material of the fifth movement is taken up again in a quiet and magical coda.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flos Campi is certainly one of the most mystical, enigmatic, but heart-renderingly beautiful works that RVW had penned IMHO. Perhaps for some, it's a work that doesn't work given it's strange hybrid-like compositional style, but how RVW treats the musical material is nothing short of extraordinary. For those that do love this work, why do you feel it works as well as it does? Are there any other works in music that have this kind of instrumentation with a solo instrument upfront and incorporate a chorus into the orchestral fabric? I haven't heard a work like this one yet. It's that unique.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 05, 2017, 12:15:57 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 05, 2017, 12:03:12 PM
Flos Campi

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0n9IExEpmh8/S8m5Ou7dcYI/AAAAAAAAUO4/jm9L01ZMDPY/s1600/In+Poppyland904.jpg)

Vaughan Williams played the viola, and frequently professed it was his favorite instrument. Along with the Suite for viola and orchestra of 1934, his most significant work for the instrument is the unusual Flos Campi (Flower of the Field), which combines the viola with a spare orchestral backing of strings, winds, tabor, and celesta, along with a mixed choir that sings wordlessly. It was first performed on October 10, 1925, in London, with violist Lionel Tertis, voices from the Royal College of Music, and the Queen's Hall Orchestra conducted by Sir Henry Wood. The reaction was mixed, and even such close friends of the composer as Gustav Holst admitted themselves puzzled by this subtle and voluptuous work.

In a program note for a 1927 performance, Vaughan Williams admitted "The title Flos Campi was taken by some to connote an atmosphere of 'buttercups and daisies....'" This is, in fact, far from the atmosphere of this work. Each of its six movements is headed by a quotation from the Old Testament's Song of Solomon, and it is the passionate quality of that text which informs Flos Campi. The work opens with the juxtaposition of viola and oboe, both playing melodically but in different keys, creating palpable tension. This opening movement is languorous and mysterious, its associated text speaking of the sickness of love, of how it is a "lily among thorns." Nature springs to life in the second movement, with the "singing of birds" and the "voice of the turtle." But the beloved is not present, and the third movement is passionate and agitated, with the viola accompanied mostly by the women of the choir. Men "expert in war" are at Solomon's bed in the vigorous fourth-movement march, in which the violist has an opportunity for some virtuoso display. The music builds to a rather tense climax, at which point we hear the murmuring of voices, over which the viola soars longingly. The orchestra takes up this music in a more peaceful strain, and the choir sings in sweet polyphony. The opening viola-oboe duet returns, but its ambivalence is resolved as the melodic material of the fifth movement is taken up again in a quiet and magical coda.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flos Campi is certainly one of the most mystical, enigmatic, but heart-renderingly beautiful works that RVW had penned IMHO. Perhaps for some, it's a work that doesn't work given it's strange hybrid-like compositional style, but how RVW treats the musical material is nothing short of extraordinary. For those that do love this work, why do you feel it works as well as it does? Are there any other works in music that have this kind of instrumentation with a solo instrument upfront and incorporate a chorus into the orchestral fabric? I haven't heard a work like this one yet. It's that unique.
It is a beautiful and quite magical work with a uniquely poetic and dream-like atmosphere. It's a while since I listened to it but will do so soon and report back. Its refined and haunting atmosphere was undermined by the composer referring to it as 'Camp Flossie'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 05, 2017, 12:21:48 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2017, 12:15:57 PM
It is a beautiful and quite magical work with a uniquely poetic and dream-like atmosphere. It's a while since I listened to it but will do so soon and report back. Its refined and haunting atmosphere was undermined by the composer referring to it as 'Camp Flossie'.

I didn't know RVW didn't like the work. 'Camp Flossie' haha! :laugh: Yes, I'll definitely look forward to your report, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 05, 2017, 03:48:10 PM
Flos Campi is one of those works that when I play it to friends elicits the response: one this sounds like film music!

Bit difficult to explain that scores like this were written, and then the idiom was taken up in film music!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 05, 2017, 04:00:48 PM
There is an ongoing narrative in Flos Campi that does have an almost cinematic quality to it. That I can't deny.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 05, 2017, 06:50:22 PM
What does everyone think of Andrew Davis' cycle on Teldec (later reissued by Warner)?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 05, 2017, 10:01:10 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 05, 2017, 06:50:22 PMWhat does everyone think of Andrew Davis' cycle on Teldec (later reissued by Warner)?

I'm not 'everyone', but Davis' cycle is by far the weakest of them all, IMHO. I know there was wide praise for his Sixth, that opened the series, but he fares bad in literally all other symphonies. Underpowered and lacking in concentration.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 05, 2017, 10:30:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 05, 2017, 12:21:48 PM
I didn't know RVW didn't like the work. 'Camp Flossie' haha! :laugh: Yes, I'll definitely look forward to your report, Jeffrey.
Oh, I'm sure he liked it John - just his humour I think.
Like Walton referring to Belshazzar's Feast as 'Belly's Binge', John Ireland referring to 'May Dun' as 'May not be done' and 'The Forgotten Rite' (a great work) as 'The Forgotten Quite' as they were hardly ever performed. All examples of creaking British humour.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 05, 2017, 10:33:03 PM
Quote from: Christo on February 05, 2017, 10:01:10 PM
I'm not 'everyone', but Davis' cycle is by far the weakest of them all, IMHO. I know there was wide praise for his Sixth, that opened the series, but he fares bad in literally all other symphonies. Underpowered and lacking in concentration.
Largely agree with this but I liked the Symphony 9 and 'Job' CD but neither are the best versions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 05, 2017, 10:34:28 PM
Quote from: Christo on February 05, 2017, 10:01:10 PM
I'm not 'everyone', but Davis' cycle is by far the weakest of them all, IMHO. I know there was wide praise for his Sixth, that opened the series, but he fares bad in literally all other symphonies. Underpowered and lacking in concentration.

This pretty much sums up my opinion of the Davis cycle. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 05, 2017, 10:34:47 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2017, 10:30:39 PM
Oh, I'm sure he liked it John - just his humour I think.
Like Walton referring to Belshazzar's Feast as 'Belly's Binge', John Ireland referring to 'May Dun' as 'May not be done' and 'The Forgotten Rite' (a great work0 as 'The Forgotten Quite' as they were hardly ever performed. Al examples of creaking British humour.  8)

:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 06, 2017, 07:21:09 AM
Vandermolen (Jeffrey) mentioned Berglund's performances of the 4th and 6th earlier and he's right about those performances being incredible. Absolutely brutal and captures the eerie atmosphere (esp. in the 6th) to great effect. I've owned these Berglund performances for years. Always nice to revisit them.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 06, 2017, 07:26:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2017, 07:21:09 AM
Vandermolen (Jeffrey) mentioned Berglund's performances of the 4th and 6th earlier and he's right about those performances being incredible. Absolutely brutal and captures the eerie atmosphere (esp. in the 6th) to great effect. I've owned these Berglund performances for years. Always nice to revisit them.
Yes, they are great John - very sibelian - especially No.6 and No.4 was BBC Radio 3's 'Building a Library' top choice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 06, 2017, 07:39:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 06, 2017, 07:26:47 AM
Yes, they are great John - very sibelian - especially No.6 and No.4 was BBC Radio 3's 'Building a Library' top choice.

I wish Berglund had recorded the whole symphony cycle. :( If the 4th and 6th performances are any indication, then the rest of his performances would been in a category all their own.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 06, 2017, 12:48:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2017, 07:39:36 AM
I wish Berglund had recorded the whole symphony cycle. :( If the 4th and 6th performances are any indication, then the rest of his performances would been in a category all their own.
Me too John.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2017, 05:19:03 AM
Berglund conducted the Sixth here in Symphony Hall, one of my favorite performances by the home band.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 07, 2017, 05:37:04 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 07, 2017, 05:19:03 AM
Berglund conducted the Sixth here in Symphony Hall, one of my favorite performances by the home band.

Wow, that must have been something to behold, Karl. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2017, 06:04:28 AM
It was a beautiful evening, John.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 07, 2017, 12:12:36 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 07, 2017, 05:19:03 AM
Berglund conducted the Sixth here in Symphony Hall, one of my favorite performances by the home band.
I'm very jealous  >:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 12, 2017, 07:27:38 AM
A Pastoral Symphony

(http://static.wixstatic.com/media/2b9b58_2b0f2995257142bfa5375b7a06d00ec6.jpg_srz_3813_1711_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz)

Vaughan Williams' Third Symphony, A Pastoral Symphony, puzzled more than a few hearers at its premiere on January 26, 1922. Here was a symphony in four movements, three of which were meditative and slow and which remained at a soft dynamic level, rarely rising to anything resembling a fortissimo climax until the third movement, a Moderato pesante functioning as a scherzo. The quiet modal themes, developing organically instead of according to classical form, the melismatic writing for section principals throughout, and the evocation through folk-like material of the English occasioned Peter Warlock's famous quip that it was like "a cow looking over a gate." In reality, A Pastoral Symphony can be heard as Vaughan Williams' "War Requiem," one of three works written in the early 1920s that employ an otherworldly atmosphere to express the dark reality of the war just finished. (Its companions are the one-act opera The Shepherds of the Delectable Mountains, after Bunyan, and the Mass in G minor for unaccompanied double chorus.) Vaughan Williams drove an ambulance in France during the Great War, and some of his experiences made their way into the score, notably a bugler heard practicing at sunset.

The first movement, Molto moderato, opens with woodwinds in undulating consecutive triads, over which the solo violin sounds out its first folk-like theme, joined by other soloists in counterpoint that develops like the interweaving tendrils of plants. The overall mood is of great harmonic beauty, at once diatonic and modal, with an undercurrent of sadness. Subtle dissonance reigns as the second movement (Lento moderato) opens, though the gentle treatment impresses the listener more with the music's implied shadow than with the clash of notes. The solo horn sounds its call of A, G, E, and D against a string chord of F minor, which swirls upward into a theme of genuine sadness on middle strings, with solo oboe prominent. The distant bugler haunts the glowing middle section, an accompanied cadenza for trumpet that climaxes in an anguished tutti on the horn's initial call. As the movement subsides, the horn and trumpet themes, now on clarinet and horn respectively, intertwine. The scherzo uses sketches from a scene of Falstaff and the fairies, and is the only untroubled movement of the symphony. A heavy, dance-like tread on low strings is answered by horns and trombones in triple time, leading to a quicker section in which the trumpet is prominent. The themes are plainly folk-influenced and are presented in a straightforward manner, with the trumpet tune of the trio returning grandly at the conclusion, only to give way to a remarkable coda, very quiet and fast, in which new themes rush through in riotous counterpoint before disappearing with a soft and magical chord from the celesta. In the finale, a wordless soprano intones a plaintive, pentatonic melody over soft timpani, followed by a warm and consoling melody, the most fully developed of the symphony. The orchestration here is rich and glowing, though shadows darken a quicker section in which fragments of the soprano's theme protest against troubled harmonies, climaxing in a full-throated cry from the high strings, alone and unison, of the singer's tune. The consoling theme returns and the movement dies away to a high shimmering note on the upper strings, against which the soprano intones her distant vocalise.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is everyone's interpretation behind RVW's A Pastoral Symphony? Is it music that suggests cows looking over a fence as Peter Warlock proclaimed? Is it a requiem or elegy for those that died in World War I that were close to RVW? Is there really something brooding deep under the surface much like there is in Sibelius' 6th? What do you guys think? My favorite performance is Previn's (w/ Heather Harper), but I've quite enjoyed the newer Elder performance, which gives the work a bit more backbone like Previn does. I haven't really heard a bad performance of A Pastoral Symphony, but Haitink's isn't my cup of tea.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 12, 2017, 01:55:00 PM
I found this to be a rather moving performance of Symphony No. 5 conducted here by Sir Andrew Davis with the Frankfurt RSO:

https://www.youtube.com/v/LsQGFlcqUmA
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 13, 2017, 01:18:34 PM
Two American 6ths

I haven't had time to root around in this thread, so I'll put the question here.

Can I get some opinions on two VW 6ths made long ago with American orchestras: Abravanel (Utah) and Stokowski (NY)?

I heard Stokie's 1st mvt. on YouTube and was bowled over by the energy in it. But these are old recordings - how do they stack up sonically?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2017, 01:24:46 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 13, 2017, 01:18:34 PM
Two American 6ths

I haven't had time to root around in this thread, so I'll put the question here.

Can I get some opinions on two VW 6ths made long ago with American orchestras: Abravanel (Utah) and Stokowski (NY)?

I heard Stokie's 1st mvt. on YouTube and was bowled over by the energy in it. But these are old recordings - how do they stack up sonically?
Both old recordings but fine performances; also I think that you get the fastest (Stokowski) and slowest ( Abravanel) versions of the 'Epilogue' last movement. I enjoy both but prefer the more recent Abravanel version. I think that Stokowski's was the first recording beating the Boult EMI version by one day. If you want better sound I'd go for Abravanel but the Stokowski is a very powerful version. Sorry, this probably doesn't help you very much!  I wouldn't be without either version and I'm sorry that Bernstein never recorded it. As for modern American conductors neither Slatkin or Previn are top recommendations.  The Stokowski version is available in the best sound on the Cala label:
[asin]B000222YGO[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2017, 01:29:30 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 13, 2017, 01:18:34 PM
Two American 6ths

I haven't had time to root around in this thread, so I'll put the question here.

Can I get some opinions on two VW 6ths made long ago with American orchestras: Abravanel (Utah) and Stokowski (NY)?

I heard Stokie's 1st mvt. on YouTube and was bowled over by the energy in it. But these are old recordings - how do they stack up sonically?

From what I've heard of Abravanel's 6th, it's an outstanding performance. I own the dreaded CD/DVD combination of the Abravanel, but recently bought the Vanguard Classics recording. The CD sounds awesome. I can't speak for the Stokowski as I haven't heard it, but it sounds like a performance I should investigate.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2017, 01:31:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 13, 2017, 01:24:46 PM
Both old recordings but fine performances; also I think that you get the fastest (Stokowski) and slowest ( Abravanel) versions of the 'Epilogue' last movement. I enjoy both but prefer the more recent Abravanel version. I think that Stokowski's was the first recording beating the Boult EMI version by one day. If you want better sound I'd go for Abravanel but the Stokowski is a very powerful version. Sorry, this probably doesn't help you very much!  I wouldn't be without either version and I'm sorry that Bernstein never recorded it. As for modern American conductors neither Slatkin or Previn are top recommendations.  The Stokowski version is available in the best sound on the Cala label.

Hmmm, I actually like Previn's a lot actually. He captures the symphony's apocalyptic mood quite well IMHO. I agree with you about Slatkin however. I'm not a fan of his RVW symphony cycle at all.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2017, 01:37:15 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2017, 01:29:30 PM
From what I've heard of Abravanel's 6th, it's an outstanding performance. I own the dreaded CD/DVD combination of the Abravanel, but recently bought the Vanguard Classics recording. The CD sounds awesome. I can't speak for the Stokowski as I haven't heard it, but it sounds like a performance I should investigate.
Yes, I agree but get the above version for the best transfer - also you get a rather poignant work - Scott's 'From the Sacred Harp' thrown in - complete with composer's introduction to the American Forces. Having said that the other Sony/CBS disc has Mitropolous's recording of Symphony 4 which is unmissable and a great favourite of the composer's. I'm always interested to hear American conductors perform Vaughan Williams.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2017, 01:39:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2017, 01:31:26 PM
Hmmm, I actually like Previn's a lot actually. He captures the symphony's apocalyptic mood quite well IMHO. I agree with you about Slatkin however. I'm not a fan of his RVW symphony cycle at all.
I think that the Previn is better than many others but the last movement maybe a bit lacking in mystery - ok, I must listen to it again. His versions of 2,3 and 8 are my favourites. Slatkin's No.9 is good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 13, 2017, 01:46:44 PM
Thanks for your feedback. While I consider the 6th to be one of VW's greatest works, I have a hard time finding recordings that do everything right. Right now I'm happy with Handley/RLPO, but it's kind of "middle of the road," and I'd like to hear a more individualistic take on the piece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2017, 02:03:51 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 13, 2017, 01:46:44 PM
Thanks for your feedback. While I consider the 6th to be one of VW's greatest works, I have a hard time finding recordings that do everything right. Right now I'm happy with Handley/RLPO, but it's kind of "middle of the road," and I'd like to hear a more individualistic take on the piece.

Then listen to Berglund's 6th. You'll thank me later. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2017, 02:06:50 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 13, 2017, 01:39:27 PM
I think that the Previn is better than many others but the last movement maybe a bit lacking in mystery - ok, I must listen to it again. His versions of 2,3 and 8 are my favourites. Slatkin's No.9 is good.

Previn is one of my favorite all-around RVW conductors for the symphonies and, for me, he didn't make many missteps. I also feel the same way about Boult and Thomson. Of course, we can talk about individual great performances all day long, but I think Apollo will be quite happy with Abravanel in the 6th. I suggested the Berglund 6th as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2017, 02:43:41 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2017, 02:06:50 PM
Previn is one of my favorite all-around RVW conductors for the symphonies and, for me, he didn't make many missteps. I also feel the same way about Boult and Thomson. Of course, we can talk about individual great performances all day long, but I think Apollo will be quite happy with Abravanel in the 6th. I suggested the Berglund 6th as well.
Berglund is a great choice but he's right that few performances get it right in all respects. My top choice remains the Boult LPO Decca recording with Vaughan Williams's speech at the end:
[asin]B00007A3E2[/asin]
And here is the fine Berglund set:
[asin]B0018OAP2U[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2017, 02:59:57 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 13, 2017, 02:43:41 PM
Berglund is a great choice but he's right that few performances get it right in all respects. My top choice remains the Boult LPO Decca recording with Vaughan Williams's speech at the end:
[asin]B00007A3E2[/asin]
And here is the fine Berglund set:
[asin]B0018OAP2U[/asin]

The audio quality of the Boult turns me off of course, but from a musical standpoint --- the early Boult on Decca is a fine set, but I believe RVW's music only got better whenever stereo started really happening as the intricacies and subtleties of much of his music can be better appreciated.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 14, 2017, 12:11:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2017, 02:59:57 PM
The audio quality of the Boult turns me off of course, but from a musical standpoint --- the early Boult on Decca is a fine set, but I believe RVW's music only got better whenever stereo started really happening as the intricacies and subtleties of much of his music can be better appreciated.
That's quite true and, in that respect, Boult's later EMI recording has many admirers, including myself. It featured as the choice in a 'Top 1000' Classical CDs book:
[asin]B0009AD3DC[/asin]
You can pick it up for about £1.00 second hand on Amazon (UK) and for $0.1 (US) - one of the great CD bargains!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 14, 2017, 05:07:15 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 14, 2017, 12:11:17 AM
That's quite true and, in that respect, Boult's later EMI recording has many admirers, including myself. It featured as the choice in a 'Top 1000' Classical CDs book:
[asin]B0009AD3DC[/asin]
You can pick it up for about £1.00 second hand on Amazon (UK) and for $0.1 (US) - one of the great CD bargains!

Of course, I already own Boult's stereo EMI cycle, so no need to buy the original issue CD, although that cover looks quite cool. ;) I'll have to revisit Boult's 6th at some point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 14, 2017, 05:29:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 14, 2017, 05:07:15 AM
Of course, I already own Boult's stereo EMI cycle, so no need to buy the original issue CD, although that cover looks quite cool. ;) I'll have to revisit Boult's 6th at some point.
Yes, it's subsequent release featured a rather less interesting cover (the one featured in the CD Guide book).
[asin]B00000DO97[/asin]
VW would, I suspect, have disapproved of the symphonies being linked to World War Two - something he vehemently denied. However, it does, I suppose, provide some generalised historical context for the symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 14, 2017, 06:25:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 14, 2017, 05:29:22 AM
Yes, it's subsequent release featured a rather less interesting cover (the one featured in the CD Guide book).
[asin]B00000DO97[/asin]
VW would, I suspect, have disapproved of the symphonies being linked to World War Two - something he vehemently denied. However, it does, I suppose, provide some generalised historical context for the symphonies.

I know RVW denied that either World War had anything to do with his Symphonies Nos. 4 & 6, but I have a gut feeling that it actually did. I'd say being an ambulance driver during WWI must have affected him in some way. I mean how could an experience like that not affect a man? If I'm not mistaken, much of A Pastoral Symphony, or at least the genesis of the work, was created on the frontline.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 14, 2017, 07:19:42 AM
Abranavel's 6th is on the way to me today, so I'm hoping to give it a listen tonight if I'm not too tired. I recall it being an outstanding performance. Santa Fe Listener, whose reviews I seldom care to read as he's a prime example of pure puffery and snobby elitism, actually said something rather interesting about this particular performance in his headline for the review: "An amazing Vaughan Williams Sixth--as huge and open as Copland (!)". That certainly sounds intriguing. Whether it's true or not, I haven't the foggiest idea, but, nevertheless, I'm quite anxious to revisit this Abravanel performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 14, 2017, 09:01:24 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 14, 2017, 07:19:42 AM
Abranavel's 6th is on the way to me today, so I'm hoping to give it a listen tonight if I'm not too tired. I recall it being an outstanding performance. Santa Fe Listener, whose reviews I seldom care to read as he's a prime example of pure puffery and snobby elitism, actually said something rather interesting about this particular performance in his headline for the review: "An amazing Vaughan Williams Sixth--as huge and open as Copland (!)". That certainly sounds intriguing. Whether it's true or not, I haven't the foggiest idea, but, nevertheless, I'm quite anxious to revisit this Abravanel performance.
I hope you ordered the Vanguard CD with Dona Nobis Pacem John - Great disc and very nicely presented too. One of my favourite couplings too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 14, 2017, 06:42:07 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 14, 2017, 09:01:24 AM
I hope you ordered the Vanguard CD with Dona Nobis Pacem John - Great disc and very nicely presented too. One of my favourite couplings too.

Yep, that's the one I bought and I also bought the other RVW Abravanel recording with various orchestral works like Flos Campi, Tallis Fantasia, 'Dives and Lazarus', among others.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 15, 2017, 12:33:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 14, 2017, 06:42:07 PM
Yep, that's the one I bought and I also bought the other RVW Abravanel recording with various orchestral works like Flos Campi, Tallis Fantasia, 'Dives and Lazarus', among others.
All excellent in my view. Abravanel is an underrated conductor.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 15, 2017, 06:20:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 15, 2017, 12:33:36 AM
All excellent in my view. Abravanel is an underrated conductor.

I think he was, too. I haven't heard a lot from him, but what I have heard has been excellent all across the board.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 15, 2017, 11:57:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 15, 2017, 06:20:53 AM
I think he was, too. I haven't heard a lot from him, but what I have heard has been excellent all across the board.
I have his Sibelius cycle and there is, I think, a Mahler one as well. I like his double CD set of music by Bloch on EMI as well as all of his VW discs. Through him I came to know Dona Nobis Pacem and Flos Campi.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 15, 2017, 06:56:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 15, 2017, 11:57:45 AM
I have his Sibelius cycle and there is, I think, a Mahler one as well. I like his double CD set of music by Bloch on EMI as well as all of his VW discs. Through him I came to know Dona Nobis Pacem and Flos Campi.

Very cool, Jeffrey. 8) I think I first heard Abravanel in Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite (it may have been another composer/work altogether) and was really impressed with the raw exuberance of the performance. Can't wait to hear his RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on February 20, 2017, 04:48:16 AM
I've recently greatly enjoyed listening to RVW's Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes.

Was the only recording by Julian LLoyd Webber / Venon Handley on RCA?

I know the composer withdrew this after its first performance and it now seems to be very little heard, but this is a lovely and substantial suite for cello and orchestra from his prime years (1930). Any other enthusiasts? Given the current interest in reviving little heard or 'lost' pieces I'm surprised this hasn't been revived.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 20, 2017, 06:07:15 AM
Quote from: Oates on February 20, 2017, 04:48:16 AM
I've recently greatly enjoyed listening to RVW's Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes.

Was the only recording by Julian LLoyd Webber / Venon Handley on RCA?
I know the composer withdrew this after its first performance and it now seems to be very little heard, but this is a lovely and substantial suite for cello and orchestra from his prime years (1930). Any other enthusiasts? Given the current interest in reviving little heard or 'lost' pieces I'm surprised this hasn't been revived.

You're right: the only recording that I'm aware of, is the one by Julian Lloyd Webber, recorded in 1983 and released a couple of times on CD (I heard it first as an LP).  And I found this performance by two musicians on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_CcZtN4Wr0
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 20, 2017, 07:33:11 AM
Quote from: Oates on February 20, 2017, 04:48:16 AM
I've recently greatly enjoyed listening to RVW's Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes.

Was the only recording by Julian LLoyd Webber / Venon Handley on RCA?

I know the composer withdrew this after its first performance and it now seems to be very little heard, but this is a lovely and substantial suite for cello and orchestra from his prime years (1930). Any other enthusiasts? Given the current interest in reviving little heard or 'lost' pieces I'm surprised this hasn't been revived.
Yes, that's a very nice work (especially as I live in Sussex  :)). I also first heard it on an LP with a collage of photos of Holst, Delius and VW on the cover of I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on March 01, 2017, 04:18:10 AM
The recent Chandos cd of VW's Ninth Symphony and Job is a Musicweb Recording of the Month and gets a rave review. Some of the responses here have been more muted. Even if some earlier intepretations have the edge,is this still worth acquiring on sonic grounds. How spectacular is this Chandos cd recording? And when does spectacular become more,or as,important as the performance itself?! This reminds me of that Telarc recording of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition,where everyone seemed to be raving about the sound quality and lushness of the strings. What a yawn!! I ended up taking it to a charity shop and Fritz Reiner's truly thrilling and eerie interpretation reigns supreme!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Mar/RVW_sy9_CHSA5180.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Mar/RVW_sy9_CHSA5180.htm)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2017, 05:08:57 AM
I didn't like the new Andrew Davis recording. I felt that the audio quality was certainly fantastic, but this alone wasn't enough to save the performances from lacking a lot of the magic I get from Boult, Thomson, and Previn. For my money, Hickox has the best Job on recording (w/ the Bournemouth SO) on EMI.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 01, 2017, 05:43:46 AM
I enjoyed Job more than the Ninth Symphony with its rushed finale. I thought that the organ was really spectacular in Job and it was worth having for that.

Here is a review of the CD:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Mar/RVW_sy9_CHSA5180.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 26, 2017, 01:48:43 PM
I thought that this was a very fine performance and recording of 'A Pastoral Symphony' with a greater sense of rhythmic drive than other versions and, uniquely I think, using a tenor rather than soprano soloist at the beginning and end of the last movement which, I think, relates the work more closely to the composer's experience of the First World War. This is now my favourite version of 'A Pastoral Symphony' along with the performances under Elder and Previn. Symphony 4 is given a powerful performance too which reminded me in places of the composer's own recording:
[asin]B06VT5RT11[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2017, 01:54:15 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 26, 2017, 01:48:43 PM
I thought that this was a very fine performance and recording of 'A Pastoral Symphony' with a greater sense of rhythmic drive than other versions and, uniquely I think, using a tenor rather than soprano soloist at the beginning and end of the last movement which, I think, relates the work more closely to the composer's experience of the First World War.

Now I wonder if that is "allowed" in the score  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 26, 2017, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 26, 2017, 01:54:15 PM
Now I wonder if that is "allowed" in the score  :)
Hi Karl apparently VW sanctioned a version with male soloist.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2017, 02:33:38 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 26, 2017, 02:29:00 PM
Hi Karl apparently VW sanctioned a version with male soloist.

Interesting, thanks.  You see, I was thinking, (a) did the score specify a soprano, so that a tenor substitution is a plain liberty? or (b) did the score say (e.g.) "soprano or tenor," and then the soprano became sort of obligatory because, it's always been done that way. . . ?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 26, 2017, 11:32:31 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 26, 2017, 02:33:38 PM
Interesting, thanks.  You see, I was thinking, (a) did the score specify a soprano, so that a tenor substitution is a plain liberty? or (b) did the score say (e.g.) "soprano or tenor," and then the soprano became sort of obligatory because, it's always been done that way. . . ?
Karl
The booklet note refers to '..his [VW's] alternative of a tenor voice brings us startlingly to the realisation of the loss of the Western Front.'

I think I read somewhere that someone (possibly from a school) asked VW's permission to use a tenor voice and VW agreed - maybe it came from this precedent rather than being in the score. If no voice is available a clarinet can be used (you could play it  8)).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on April 18, 2017, 04:34:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 26, 2017, 11:32:31 PM
Karl
The booklet note refers to '..his [VW's] alternative of a tenor voice brings us startlingly to the realisation of the loss of the Western Front.'

I think I read somewhere that someone (possibly from a school) asked VW's permission to use a tenor voice and VW agreed - maybe it came from this precedent rather than being in the score. If no voice is available a clarinet can be used (you could play it  8)).

I did wonder about this. I've got tickets to hear the Pastoral Symphony next Sunday in Manchester, and it lists a tenor soloist.

https://tickets.bridgewater-hall.co.uk/single/eventDetail.aspx?p=33181

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2017, 05:54:42 AM
Quote from: Oates on April 18, 2017, 04:34:19 AM
I did wonder about this. I've got tickets to hear the Pastoral Symphony next Sunday in Manchester, and it lists a tenor soloist.

https://tickets.bridgewater-hall.co.uk/single/eventDetail.aspx?p=33181
How great! You must let us know what it's like.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on April 24, 2017, 01:18:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 18, 2017, 05:54:42 AM
How great! You must let us know what it's like.

Tallis Fantasia was very good (if a little slowly paced), with the smaller string group off stage up in a gallery.

Next up was Sofia Gubaidulina's Offertorium described in the programme as "searingly beautiful" (trades descriptions violation?) was actually just searing - as challenging a piece of discordant serialism as I've heard in a concert. Obviously a logical choice for what was billed as a St George's Day concert! I don't understand this style of music so I can't criticise. Clearly if this piece was programmed with music by Harrison Birtwistle instead of RVW, then there would likely be about 21 people in the audience. As it was, it wasn't sold out.

I was pleased to hear the Pastoral Symphony being performed as I suspect that this was a rare opportunity to experience it outside of London. However, I was not convinced that conductor Vassily Sinaisky had the piece fully under control - brass seemed too loud at times and not so well integrated with the strings. The solo tenor was not so successful for me - again, he was singing from up in a gallery, sounded a bit jarring at times. I'd definitely have preferred a soprano.

I accept that many of these comments might just be the result of years of listening to my two favourite CD versions (Vernon Handley and Richard Hickox).

You can hear this concert for yourself on BBC Radio 3 in Concert on Friday 28 April at 7.30pm. I'm wondering if the recording will improve the balance issues somewhat.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 24, 2017, 02:43:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 15, 2017, 12:33:36 AM
All excellent in my view. Abravanel is an underrated conductor.
Agreed! I'm a bit of an Abravanel fan. I like his Sibelius. The way he brings out the icy desolation of all that snowy tundra. Perhaps being out there in the desert helps (cold at night,desolate!). His strings sound so icy. I feel more coldness from the Utah strings than the Berglund/Bournemouth SO. But the BSO horns blaze out in a way that the Utah orchestra can't quite match (they try hard with what they've got!). His Mahler is very satisfying too. All the performances are good,but some are very good! I also like the pioneering zeal. Not the first recordings,of course;but the first fully integral cycle. Either way,there is a genuine feeling of exploration;not just another cycle. I also like his recording Of Rimsky Korsakov's Antar Symphony. I find it quite magical. The fact that part of the action takes part in the desert,is another interesting connection!
Haven't heard his Vaughan Williams,I'm afraid! :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 24, 2017, 06:04:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 24, 2017, 02:43:47 AM
Agreed! I'm a bit of an Abravanel fan. I like his Sibelius. The way he brings out the icy desolation of all that snowy tundra. Perhaps being out there in the desert helps (cold at night,desolate!). His strings sound so icy. I feel more coldness from the Utah strings than the Berglund/Bournemouth SO. But the BSO horns blaze out in a way that the Utah orchestra can't quite match (they try hard with what they've got!). His Mahler is very satisfying too. All the performances are good,but some are very good! I also like the pioneering zeal. Not the first recordings,of course;but the first fully integral cycle. Either way,there is a genuine feeling of exploration;not just another cycle. I also like his recording Of Rimsky Korsakov's Antar Symphony. I find it quite magical. The fact that part of the action takes part in the desert,is another interesting connection!
Haven't heard his Vaughan Williams,I'm afraid! :(
Cilgwyn, I like your desert/Sibelius comments. If you get the chance try the VW Symphony 6. Longest Epilogue on disc but keeps the tension throughout - the coupling with Doña Nobis Pacem is a great VW disc but look out for the Vanguard release and not the Silverline one with the DVD. His Flos Campi is excellent too. In Doña Nobis Pacem the American pronunciation of the Utah choir goes well with the setting of Whitman's poetry.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2017, 06:23:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 26, 2017, 01:48:43 PM
I thought that this was a very fine performance and recording of 'A Pastoral Symphony' with a greater sense of rhythmic drive than other versions and, uniquely I think, using a tenor rather than soprano soloist at the beginning and end of the last movement which, I think, relates the work more closely to the composer's experience of the First World War. This is now my favourite version of 'A Pastoral Symphony' along with the performances under Elder and Previn. Symphony 4 is given a powerful performance too which reminded me in places of the composer's own recording:
[asin]B06VT5RT11[/asin]

Not sure if I can get onboard with this new Manze recording considering the disappointment that was his first RVW release of Symphonies 2 & 8. Also the idea of a tenor singing the wordless vocal part in the last movement of A Pastoral Symphony doesn't sit well with me, especially when a woman's voice just feels right to me and represents almost this angelic voice bursting through the clouds. Also, Manze's conducting leaves much to be desired as well. He's accurate and technically proficient in getting crystal clear clarity from an orchestra, but RVW's music isn't about this at all but about passion and trying to convey a more emotional message. Anyway, this is all IMHO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 24, 2017, 06:36:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 24, 2017, 06:23:18 AM
Not sure if I can get onboard with this new Manze recording considering the disappointment that was his first RVW release of Symphonies 2 & 8. Also the idea of a tenor singing the wordless vocal part in the last movement of A Pastoral Symphony doesn't sit well with me, especially when a woman's voice just feels right to me and represents almost this angelic voice bursting through the clouds. Also, Manze's conducting leaves much to be desired as well. He's accurate and technically proficient in getting crystal clear clarity from an orchestra, but RVW's music isn't about this at all but about passion and trying to convey a more emotional message. Anyway, this is all IMHO.
John - I don't disagree especially about the older recording which nearly went to the charity shop. However I liked 'A Pastoral Symphony' and thought the tenor soloist worked well in the context of World War One and the slaughter on the Somme but just IMHO too. Nos 5,6 and 9 will be the real test as far as I'm concerned. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2017, 08:17:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 24, 2017, 06:36:26 AM
John - I don't disagree especially about the older recording which nearly went to the charity shop. However I liked 'A Pastoral Symphony' and thought the tenor soloist worked well in the context of World War One and the slaughter on the Somme but just IMHO too. Nos 5,6 and 9 will be the real test as far as I'm concerned. :)

I suppose given all of the excellent performances I've heard of the Pastoral, I'm a bit leery of Manze considering my previous experience with his conducting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 24, 2017, 09:34:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 24, 2017, 08:17:16 AM
I suppose given all of the excellent performances I've heard of the Pastoral, I'm a bit leery of Manze considering my previous experience with his conducting.
I understand. Better to stick with the Previn or Elder I think.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2017, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 24, 2017, 09:34:45 AM
I understand. Better to stick with the Previn or Elder I think.  :)

Yes to Previn and Elder, but I do like Boult's later EMI performance, too. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 24, 2017, 11:16:11 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 24, 2017, 09:45:18 AM
Yes to Previn and Elder, but I do like Boult's later EMI performance, too. ;)
Oh yes and his earlier one on Decca which I think might have been the first ever recording of the work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on April 30, 2017, 12:47:04 AM
It is clearly time for another icy blast of RVW's film score via Dutton.

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7340

Rumon Gamba excavated much of this for Chandos in 2002 (41m 12s worth across 18 cues). I don't know how much extra music this offers but it has 41 cues.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 30, 2017, 02:09:51 PM
Quote from: Oates on April 30, 2017, 12:47:04 AM
It is clearly time for another icy blast of RVW's film score via Dutton.

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7340

Rumon Gamba excavated much of this for Chandos in 2002 (41m 12s worth across 18 cues). I don't know how much extra music this offers but it has 41 cues.
That's what I thought although it hasn't stopped me ordering it.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2017, 03:24:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 30, 2017, 02:09:51 PM
That's what I thought although it hasn't stopped me ordering it.  ::)

Let me know what you think, Jeffrey. For some reason, I haven't had too much interest in RVW's film music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 01, 2017, 01:03:40 AM
Will do John. IMHO the best single disc collection of VW's film music is the one on Naxos which was originally on Marco Polo.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2017, 06:57:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 01, 2017, 01:03:40 AM
Will do John. IMHO the best single disc collection of VW's film music is the one on Naxos which was originally on Marco Polo.

I'll have to check that one out. Thanks, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 01, 2017, 08:42:34 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 30, 2017, 02:09:51 PM
That's what I thought although it hasn't stopped me ordering it.  ::)
You've got to fight the urge,vandermolen. Fight it on the websites,fight it at the keyboard,fight it at the checkout,fight it with growing confidence and never.....ever.......surrender your payment details,however tempting that nice,shiny looking cd might be!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 02, 2017, 02:38:34 AM
Atmospheric it may be but this sleeve doesn't depict the Terra Nova expedition that is the subject of the film and music. I think it may be the 1901 Discovery expedition.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 02, 2017, 06:28:39 AM
Andrew Manze's cycle of RVW symphonies was hailed as the "definitive interpretation of our times" (or something similar) by our old friend / adversary Simon Heffer in last Saturday's Telegraph. He was really praising these recordings to the skies. I haven't heard any yet and previous comments in this thread have made me a bit wary.

I'm just not sure how far I trust Heffer's opinions - on the one hand his Telegraph column tends to praise aspects of British culture that I also find interesting (but not usually revelatory) as he fights the corner for less celebrated or neglected works of art, but on the other hand (knowing his general views about politics, people and the state of the world) I'm not comfortable about concurring with someone with whom I would disagree so vehemently.   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 02, 2017, 06:48:07 AM
Quote from: Oates on May 02, 2017, 06:28:39 AM
Andrew Manze's cycle of RVW symphonies was hailed as the "definitive interpretation of our times" (or something similar) by our old friend / adversary Simon Heffer in last Saturday's Telegraph. He was really praising these recordings to the skies. I haven't heard any yet and previous comments in this thread have made me a bit wary.

I'm just not sure how far I trust Heffer's opinions - on the one hand his Telegraph column tends to praise aspects of British culture that I also find interesting (but not usually revelatory) as he fights the corner for less celebrated or neglected works of art, but on the other hand (knowing his general views about politics, people and the state of the world) I'm not comfortable about concurring with someone with whom I would disagree so vehemently.   
The Manze/VWV symphony videos are all on Youtube. I watched some of them. They are ok, I wouldn't say revelatory in any way. I don't think he really has any concrete musical ideas per say but they are well-played and well presented.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2017, 06:48:40 AM
Quote from: Oates on May 02, 2017, 06:28:39 AM
Andrew Manze's cycle of RVW symphonies was hailed as the "definitive interpretation of our times" (or something similar) by our old friend / adversary Simon Heffer in last Saturday's Telegraph. He was really praising these recordings to the skies. I haven't heard any yet and previous comments in this thread have made me a bit wary.

I'm just not sure how far I trust Heffer's opinions - on the one hand his Telegraph column tends to praise aspects of British culture that I also find interesting (but not usually revelatory) as he fights the corner for less celebrated or neglected works of art, but on the other hand (knowing his general views about politics, people and the state of the world) I'm not comfortable about concurring with someone with whom I would disagree so vehemently.   

It's funny you mention this because I have an opposite impression of the Manze cycle than Simon Heffer. I wrote a review of the first recording of the series on Amazon and here's what I wrote:

Andrew Manze has been slowly establishing himself as a conductor of more later music (i. e. 20th Century) as he comes from an early music background. He has performed Vaughan Williams many times (incl. a concert of "Symphonies Nos. 4-6" at the BBC Proms if I remember correctly). This recording (on Onyx) is the first in a projected cycle of Vaughan Williams' symphonies. Upon listening to this recording twice now, my reaction to the music-making is rather underwhelming in general. I think Manze has a good understanding of the music and how to make it flow, but what I'm missing is a more dramatic narrative than what's on display here. Of course, Manze has some stiff competition in both of these symphonies (and all the rest once they're released). How does Manze stack up against my favorites like Boult, Thomson, Previn, and Handley? He doesn't. It's that simple. The climaxes aren't too impressive and, while I did mention the positive of the music flowing at nice pace, Manze seems to undermine in the process some of the more lyrical moments where coaxing more emotion from the orchestra would have been welcomed. In "A London Symphony," I don't feel like I'm experiencing the city at all. I'm feeling the experience as a tourist and not someone who actually lives there. He seems so hesitant and cautious. I know he probably doesn't want to make any mistakes from a technical perspective, but a more unhinged approach would have been much more pleasing to hear. "Symphony No. 8" suffers from the same kind of reluctant approach as "A London Symphony." Some consider "Symphony No. 8" to be a puzzling work and, indeed, it doesn't give up it's secrets so easily, but, for me, along with the 3rd, 5th, 6th, it's one of his finest symphonies. The orchestration in itself is a feast for the ears, but under Manze's baton I don't feel quite the same magic as I felt before in the afore mentioned conductors. To end this rambling review, I'm not going to be buying any more of Manze's Vaughan Williams recordings and I'm going to stick to my favorites as they display more than just an understanding of the technical side of the music. In summary, more emotion Mr. Manze, more emotion!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 02, 2017, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 01, 2017, 08:42:34 AM
You've got to fight the urge,vandermolen. Fight it on the websites,fight it at the keyboard,fight it at the checkout,fight it with growing confidence and never.....ever.......surrender your payment details,however tempting that nice,shiny looking cd might be!!

Too late:

'Once more unto the Amazon shopping basket dear friends, once more...'

8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 02, 2017, 10:49:20 PM
Quote from: Oates on May 02, 2017, 02:38:34 AM
Atmospheric it may be but this sleeve doesn't depict the Terra Nova expedition that is the subject of the film and music. I think it may be the 1901 Discovery expedition.
Yes, it's definitely not the Terra Nova expedition. Also the presence of other ships makes me doubt if it is the Discovery one or Shackleton's 'Endurance' expedition when the ship got crushed in the ice. There's the tragic Franklin expedition too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 02, 2017, 10:56:11 PM
Quote from: Oates on May 02, 2017, 06:28:39 AM
Andrew Manze's cycle of RVW symphonies was hailed as the "definitive interpretation of our times" (or something similar) by our old friend / adversary Simon Heffer in last Saturday's Telegraph. He was really praising these recordings to the skies. I haven't heard any yet and previous comments in this thread have made me a bit wary.

I'm just not sure how far I trust Heffer's opinions - on the one hand his Telegraph column tends to praise aspects of British culture that I also find interesting (but not usually revelatory) as he fights the corner for less celebrated or neglected works of art, but on the other hand (knowing his general views about politics, people and the state of the world) I'm not comfortable about concurring with someone with whom I would disagree so vehemently.   
So far I have enjoyed 'A Pastoral Symphony' with its unusual tenor soloist but the performances of symphonies 2,8 and 4 are nothing special IMHO although enjoyable enough. I don't think they displace Boult's (EMI/Warner or historical Decca) as the definitive cycle. Others think that Previn's is the best overall cycle. I prefer most of the performances by Hickox and Thomson too and Haitink ranks highly with the best No.1.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 03, 2017, 06:07:04 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 02, 2017, 10:56:11 PM
So far I have enjoyed 'A Pastoral Symphony' with its unusual tenor soloist but the performances of symphonies 2,8 and 4 are nothing special IMHO although enjoyable enough. I don't think they displace Boult's (EMI/Warner or historical Decca) as the definitive cycle. Others think that Previn's is the best overall cycle. I prefer most of the performances by Hickox and Thomson too and Haitink ranks highly with the best No.1.
I really like Andre Previn's cycle, every performance is a knockout. The only quibble I have is some bloke yapping away between mvts in the Sinfonia Antarctica. I would say together with Slatkin they are my favorite. I never liked Thomson, Haitink or Boult (not sure which one I have exactly).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 03, 2017, 06:24:15 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 02, 2017, 10:43:44 PM
Too late:

'Once more unto the Amazon shopping basket dear friends, once more...'

8)

Well, I've ordered it as well, despite the real risk that there will be only about 1m 21s of music that is "previously unheard"! It might make up for the blu-ray of Scott of The Antarctic from last year which had a lovely picture but garbled sound, despite Andrew Davis singing its praises in the extras. Trust the latest technology to take the one film where the soundtrack is critically important and render it worse that the previous DVD release.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2017, 06:31:52 AM
A blu-ray with bad sound:  oh, the humanity!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 05, 2017, 05:57:42 AM
I am listening to the new RVW Scott of The Antarctic CD right now - all 80 minutes' worth of music, which is exactly twice the length of the previous Chandos CD based on this score. So this is quite a different listening experience to either that or Sinfonia Antartica.  There's a fair bit of previously unheard music in this, some very good, but it is fragmentary and very varied in mood. Some individual pieces, such as "Ship's Departure from Ross Island" could easily have been developed into a stand alone orchestral tone poem. Very nice sound quality this CD has as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 12:25:56 PM
Quote from: Oates on May 05, 2017, 05:57:42 AM
I am listening to the new RVW Scott of The Antarctic CD right now - all 80 minutes' worth of music, which is exactly twice the length of the previous Chandos CD based on this score. So this is quite a different listening experience to either that or Sinfonia Antartica.  There's a fair bit of previously unheard music in this, some very good, but it is fragmentary and very varied in mood. Some individual pieces, such as "Ship's Departure from Ross Island" could easily have been developed into a stand alone orchestral tone poem. Very nice sound quality this CD has as well.
Nice to know - thanks. I'll look forward to receiving it. Are you a relative of Captain Oates?
8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 06, 2017, 06:14:35 AM
Aye, most interesting, thanks!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 07, 2017, 11:55:18 PM
Quote from: Oates on May 05, 2017, 05:57:42 AM
I am listening to the new RVW Scott of The Antarctic CD right now - all 80 minutes' worth of music, which is exactly twice the length of the previous Chandos CD based on this score. So this is quite a different listening experience to either that or Sinfonia Antartica.  There's a fair bit of previously unheard music in this, some very good, but it is fragmentary and very varied in mood. Some individual pieces, such as "Ship's Departure from Ross Island" could easily have been developed into a stand alone orchestral tone poem. Very nice sound quality this CD has as well.
Yes, it's great. Listening to it now.
The cover painting is: 'Caught in the Ice' (1830). Not sure if it references a particular expedition.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 09, 2017, 07:12:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 12:25:56 PM
Nice to know - thanks. I'll look forward to receiving it. Are you a relative of Captain Oates?
8)

No relation but the non-de-plume was inspired by the same character. The music drew me into the subject again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 09, 2017, 08:58:44 AM
Quote from: Oates on May 09, 2017, 07:12:35 AM
No relation but the non-de-plume was inspired by the same character. The music drew me into the subject again.
Excellent!
Really enjoying the CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2017, 04:16:46 AM
Talking about Flos Campi One of the reasons I bought this cd,was because of the placing of it as an opener,before the actual symphony. The other cd 'arrangement' I like is the emi Barbirolli with Tintagel first.

(http://i.imgur.com/Qsp9us7.jpg)

Picture's a bit blurry! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2017, 04:27:34 AM
Riders to the Sea is being done here in Boston.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2017, 05:09:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 06, 2017, 04:27:34 AM
Riders to the Sea is being done here in Boston.
Are you going Karl?
It is a great work - one of the few operas that I ever listen to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2017, 05:17:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2017, 05:09:34 AM
Are you going Karl?  It is a great work - one of the few operas that I ever listen to.

I'll look for the performance dates!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2017, 05:38:59 AM
23 & 24 June at NEC, an opera workshop setting.  I shall definitely go!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2017, 06:13:14 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 06, 2017, 05:38:59 AM
23 & 24 June at NEC, an opera workshop setting.  I shall definitely go!
Excellent! I am jealous.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 06, 2017, 06:46:40 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 06, 2017, 04:27:34 AM
Riders to the Sea is being done here in Boston.

Speaking of the Sea, this is coming up soon (June 16 & 17):

Grant Park Orchestra and Chorus
Carlos Kalmar, conductor
Sara Jakubiak, soprano
David John Pike, baritone
Britten: Peter Grimes: Four Sea Interludes and Passacaglia
Vaughan Williams: A Sea Symphony
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2017, 06:50:01 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 06, 2017, 06:46:40 AM
Speaking of the Sea, this is coming up soon (June 16 & 17):

Grant Park Orchestra and Chorus
Carlos Kalmar, conductor
Sara Jakubiak, soprano
David John Pike, baritone
Britten: Peter Grimes: Four Sea Interludes and Passacaglia
Vaughan Williams: A Sea Symphony


Très cool!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2017, 10:09:09 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 06, 2017, 06:46:40 AM
Speaking of the Sea, this is coming up soon (June 16 & 17):

Grant Park Orchestra and Chorus
Carlos Kalmar, conductor
Sara Jakubiak, soprano
David John Pike, baritone
Britten: Peter Grimes: Four Sea Interludes and Passacaglia
Vaughan Williams: A Sea Symphony
I'm even more jealous now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 07, 2017, 05:11:27 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 06, 2017, 06:46:40 AM
Speaking of the Sea, this is coming up soon (June 16 & 17):

Grant Park Orchestra and Chorus
Carlos Kalmar, conductor
Sara Jakubiak, soprano
David John Pike, baritone
Britten: Peter Grimes: Four Sea Interludes and Passacaglia
Vaughan Williams: A Sea Symphony
Kalmar is a fine conductor, doing great work with the Oregon Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Rons_talking on June 10, 2017, 02:08:43 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 06, 2017, 06:46:40 AM
Speaking of the Sea, this is coming up soon (June 16 & 17):

Grant Park Orchestra and Chorus
Carlos Kalmar, conductor
Sara Jakubiak, soprano
David John Pike, baritone
Britten: Peter Grimes: Four Sea Interludes and Passacaglia
Vaughan Williams: A Sea Symphony

I'm jealous too. I've heard very little RVW in person ( not intentionally...just bad timing)- and the Sea Symphony is a favourite of mine.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 10, 2017, 08:06:05 AM
Quote from: Rons_talking on June 10, 2017, 02:08:43 AM
I'm jealous too. I've heard very little RVW in person ( not intentionally...just bad timing)- and the Sea Symphony is a favourite of mine.
Think I'm lucky enough to have heard all the symphonies live including the first performance of the 1913 version of 'A London Sumphony' in about eighty years.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 10, 2017, 09:21:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 10, 2017, 08:06:05 AM
Think I'm lucky enough to have heard all the symphonies live including the first performance of the 1913 version of 'A London Sumphony' in about eighty years.

I hardly think that possible on this side of The Pond.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 10, 2017, 01:51:47 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 10, 2017, 09:21:00 AMI hardly think that possible on this side of The Pond.
Neither is it in this country, to my regrets. Over the years I heard Nos. 2, 3 and 5 in (good) amateur and Nos. 4 and 7 in professional performances and missed two opportunities for  a professional Sea Symphony in more recent years. I missed Norrington doing the Pastoral in 2003 in the Amsterdam Concertgebouw en Nos. 4 and 6 by Edo de Waart in Rotterdam around 1998, but I never heard about any performance of Nos. 8 and 9. The good news is: in April I heard the Fourth in Rotterdam after a great introduction by conductor Sir Mark Elder; making it a special occasion (though he was mistaken when he suggested this to be Rotterdam premiere, so I had to correct him :-) )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2017, 12:43:10 PM
Quote from: Christo on June 10, 2017, 01:51:47 PM
Neither is it in this country, to my regrets. Over the years I heard Nos. 2, 3 and 5 in (good) amateur and Nos. 4 and 7 in professional performances and missed two opportunities for  a professional Sea Symphony in more recent years. I missed Norrington doing the Pastoral in 2003 in the Amsterdam Concertgebouw en Nos. 4 and 6 by Edo de Waart in Rotterdam around 1998, but I never heard about any performance of Nos. 8 and 9. The good news is: in April I heard the Fourth in Rotterdam after a great introduction by conductor Sir Mark Elder; making it a special occasion (though he was mistaken when he suggested this to be Rotterdam premiere, so I had to correct him :-) )
Yes, I have been lucky here as some conductors have conducted complete cycles like Hickox and Manze. I'm old enough to have heard Boult conduct several of the symphonies. I heard Norman Del Mar conduct A Pastoral Symphony (very poor performance - my brother fell asleep during the concert).  The Hickox 1913 version of A London Symphony was a highlight for me. Decades ago there was a Festival of British music where I recall hearing Sinfonia Antartica and A Sea Symphony. I heard Boult conduct Symphony 8 on 12th October 1972 - the composer's 100th Birthday (and 'Job' - the first time I heard the work),  and Symphony 5 in Westminster Abbey (where VW's ashes are buried a few days later or earlier). I was 17 at the time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 13, 2017, 01:46:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 13, 2017, 12:43:10 PM
I heard Norman Del Mar conduct A Pastoral Symphony (very poor performance - my brother fell asleep during the concert). 
Can't say I really blame him, can't really listen to that work myself for more than a couple of minutes without dozing off.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2017, 08:46:56 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 13, 2017, 01:46:34 PM
Can't say I really blame him, can't really listen to that work myself for more than a couple of minutes without dozing off.
:)
Although Michael Kennedy thinks it's his greatest symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 14, 2017, 01:01:20 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 13, 2017, 01:46:34 PMCan't say I really blame him, can't really listen to that work myself for more than a couple of minutes without dozing off.
I always agreed with Michael Kennedy: it really is his 'War Requiem'  and already as a youth (this being one of the first pieces by RVW that I ever heard, I was fourteen) I felt the extreme tension underneath the surface and found it very exciting.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2017, 02:32:00 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 14, 2017, 01:01:20 AM
I always agreed with Michael Kennedy: it really is his 'War Requiem'  and already as a youth (this being one of the first pieces by RVW that I ever heard, I was fourteen) I felt the extreme tension underneath the surface and found it very exciting.  :)
Yes, I think it's a fine work too. Oddly enough I think I prefer listening to it on record rather than live in concert although maybe that's because the live performance I heard wasn't very good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 25, 2017, 05:47:43 AM
Anyone heard The Lark Ascending from here featuring Iona Brown on the violin?

[asin]B000004CVM[/asin]

Man this really is as good as it gets. Perhaps not as big a name as others but can that lady play the violin? The gorgeous opening achieving the most transcendental piano you will hear, plus the drop dead gorgeous bowing. It really doesn't get better than this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzONNtE_WqM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzONNtE_WqM)

(there must be half a dozen others on youtube but none as good)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 26, 2017, 06:10:28 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 25, 2017, 05:47:43 AM
Anyone heard The Lark Ascending from here featuring Iona Brown on the violin?

[asin]B000004CVM[/asin]

Man this really is as good as it gets. Perhaps not as big a name as others but can that lady play the violin? The gorgeous opening achieving the most transcendental piano you will hear, plus the drop dead gorgeous bowing. It really doesn't get better than this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzONNtE_WqM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzONNtE_WqM)

(there must be half a dozen others on youtube but none as good)
It is good but my favourite remains the Hugh Bean/Boult version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2017, 06:13:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 26, 2017, 06:10:28 AM
It is good but my favourite remains the Hugh Bean/Boult version.

As I have also found with the Tallis Fantasia, The Lark Ascending is a thoroughly enchanting piece to hear live, in ways which may surprise someone accustomed to listening to recordings.  As wonderful as it is to have all the recordings, there remains no substitute for hearing live music-making in the space.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2017, 08:36:17 AM
(The Pops! concert of the Arlington Philharmonic Society for which I was The Güiro Man (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,92.msg1068217.html#msg1068217) was in fact the first I heard The Lark Ascending live.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Peter Power Pop on June 26, 2017, 03:22:23 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 25, 2017, 05:47:43 AM
Anyone heard The Lark Ascending from here featuring Iona Brown on the violin?

[asin]B000004CVM[/asin]

Man this really is as good as it gets. Perhaps not as big a name as others but can that lady play the violin? The gorgeous opening achieving the most transcendental piano you will hear, plus the drop dead gorgeous bowing. It really doesn't get better than this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzONNtE_WqM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzONNtE_WqM)

(there must be half a dozen others on youtube but none as good)

I adore that album. It was the first Vaughan Williams disc I bought, and it's still my favourite. Nineteen thumbs up from me.

As for this particular The Lark Ascending, it's my ideal performance. Everything about it is perfection (to me). This also applies to the other performances on the CD.

https://www.youtube.com/v/tzONNtE_WqM
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 26, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
Quote from: Peter Power Pop on June 26, 2017, 03:22:23 PM
I adore that album. It was the first Vaughan Williams disc I bought, and it's still my favourite. Nineteen thumbs up from me.

As for this particular The Lark Ascending, it's my ideal performance. Everything about it is perfection (to me). This also applies to the other performances on the CD.

https://www.youtube.com/v/tzONNtE_WqM
Yes while others are good I find Iona Browns bowing truly magical. It is as if she plays the entire piece on one bow. Also notice how rich her tone is even on the very high notes, plus she does not resort to any cheap portamentos. There is sincerity and directness in her expressions.

Switching subjects, which one of these would you guys buy:

[asin]B001BLR7AI[/asin]

[asin]B0014DAI9U[/asin]

I've listened to bits and pieces of both on Youtube and both are quite good. The Davis has slightly richer sound but the Bakels is fresher and more urgent I feel.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on June 26, 2017, 05:56:18 PM
I so much love RVW.  Anytime I hear some from him, I am reminded why he is one of my top 5 favorites.  What is your favorite version of Symphony No. 3?  It is the last work of his that I haven't fully explored so has a sense of discovery for me (except for world premieres).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Peter Power Pop on June 26, 2017, 05:56:40 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 26, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
Yes while others are good I find Iona Browns bowing truly magical. It is as if she plays the entire piece on one bow. Also notice how rich her tone is even on the very high notes, plus she does not resort to any cheap portamentos. There is sincerity and directness in her expressions.

Switching subjects, which one of these would you guys buy:

[asin]B001BLR7AI[/asin]

[asin]B0014DAI9U[/asin]

I've listened to bits and pieces of both on Youtube and both are quite good. The Davis has slightly richer sound but the Bakels is fresher and more urgent I feel.

I don't know, but you might want to fix the link for the Davis set in your post. (You'll need to get rid of the line break.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 01:48:15 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 26, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
Yes while others are good I find Iona Browns bowing truly magical. It is as if she plays the entire piece on one bow. Also notice how rich her tone is even on the very high notes, plus she does not resort to any cheap portamentos. There is sincerity and directness in her expressions.

Switching subjects, which one of these would you guys buy:

[asin]B001BLR7AI[/asin]

[asin]B0014DAI9U[/asin]

I've listened to bits and pieces of both on Youtube and both are quite good. The Davis has slightly richer sound but the Bakels is fresher and more urgent I feel.
The Davis has a fab version of Symphony 6 - the greatest of his symphonies IMHO but very difficult to get right on disc. Following on from that the others in the cycle were seen to be a bit of an anti-climax. Having said that I enjoy Davis's performances more than many others. On balance I'd probably opt for the Naxos box although I prefer the Boult cycles on Decca and Warner and the ones by Thomson and Previn. The Previn on RCA is a wonderful cycle but you don't get any booklet notes.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on June 27, 2017, 01:58:12 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 26, 2017, 05:56:18 PM
I so much love RVW.  Anytime I hear some from him, I am reminded why he is one of my top 5 favorites.  What is your favorite version of Symphony No. 3?  It is the last work of his that I haven't fully explored so has a sense of discovery for me (except for world premieres).

My only CD the No.3 for years was by Vernon Handley (RLPO on EMI Eminence from the 1990s) and I'm now so used to this that I'm less tolerant of other versions. I think this CD is perfect in every way. I also think the Hickox version on Chandos is very good as well. I tried the 1968 EMI version by Adrian Boult expecting this performance to top the lot (as it should do) but I found it disappointing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 03:52:33 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 26, 2017, 05:56:18 PM
I so much love RVW.  Anytime I hear some from him, I am reminded why he is one of my top 5 favorites.  What is your favorite version of Symphony No. 3?  It is the last work of his that I haven't fully explored so has a sense of discovery for me (except for world premieres).

The version with Andre Previn and the LSO is by far my favourite. The Mark Elder version is also excellent.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 27, 2017, 06:11:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 01:48:15 AM
The Davis has a fab version of Symphony 6 - the greatest of his symphonies IMHO but very difficult to get right on disc. Following on from that the others in the cycle were seen to be a bit of an anti-climax. Having said that I enjoy Davis's performances more than many others. On balance I'd probably opt for the Naxos box although I prefer the Boult cycles on Decca and Warner and the ones by Thomson and Previn. The Previn on RCA is a wonderful cycle but you don't get any booklet notes.

Of the Naxos issues, I've only heard the 7/8, but I think it's superb sonically and the performances are very good. In fact, it sounds so good I've used it to test and show off audio equipment (in particular, the gradual build-up to the climax of the 7th's slow movement).

I dissent from the widespread praise of the Davis 6th - I find it a bit underpowered. Give me Boult or Handley instead.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 27, 2017, 07:33:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 03:52:33 AM
The version with Andre Previn and the LSO is by far my favourite. The Mark Elder version is also excellent.
Speaking of the third anyone heard this with with Ormandy/Philadelphia?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl9Jc4ni1yA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl9Jc4ni1yA)

One of the very rarely recorded performance of a non-British conductor and non-British orchestra.

And where is the cd version?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Parsifal on June 27, 2017, 10:17:09 AM
I have and greatly enjoy the Davis Box, I have not heard the Naxos alternative. Another set that I loved was Haitink, and one that I didn't love was Boult/EMI (sound was irritating, attributable to non-ideal remastering done in the early days of the CD).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Parsifal on June 27, 2017, 10:21:01 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 25, 2017, 05:47:43 AM
Anyone heard The Lark Ascending from here featuring Iona Brown on the violin?

[asin]B000004CVM[/asin]

Man this really is as good as it gets. Perhaps not as big a name as others but can that lady play the violin? The gorgeous opening achieving the most transcendental piano you will hear, plus the drop dead gorgeous bowing. It really doesn't get better than this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzONNtE_WqM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzONNtE_WqM)

(there must be half a dozen others on youtube but none as good)

Seems like I have to have this, even though I usually am unimpressed by Marriner/ASMF. Their Mozart is too delicate for my taste. Maybe in VW their style will resonate with me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 27, 2017, 11:08:59 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 27, 2017, 10:21:01 AM
Seems like I have to have this, even though I usually am unimpressed by Marriner/ASMF. Their Mozart is too delicate for my taste. Maybe in VW their style will resonate with me.
I think the ASMF is hit or miss and a lot of times depend on how they are recorded. They also sound quite differently when NOT under the baton of Sir Neville. For example if you listen to their Handel Concerti Grosso they play much better and is much more involved when Iona Brown is conducting rather than Sir Neville.

Quote from: Scarpia on June 27, 2017, 10:17:09 AM
I have and greatly enjoy the Davis Box, I have not heard the Naxos alternative. Another set that I loved was Haitink, and one that I didn't love was Boult/EMI (sound was irritating, attributable to non-ideal remastering done in the early days of the CD).
Boult always struck me as stiff and too button-down in this music. I think VW's music needs a bit more senza misura? It's been a long time since I listened to my Haitink set, and in general I didn't find it memorable for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Parsifal on June 27, 2017, 11:11:57 AM
There is no cycle, but I have enjoyed every Barbirolli recording of RVW that I have heard.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 27, 2017, 11:25:27 AM
I'll tell you which Pastoral is not my favorite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4an0DqtwB9M&list=RD4an0DqtwB9M&index=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4an0DqtwB9M&list=RD4an0DqtwB9M&index=1)

or this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emq3M6DpXMY&t=8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emq3M6DpXMY&t=8s)
that trumpet solo makes you cringe around the 20 min mark...

So bad it is funny.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 27, 2017, 11:32:55 AM


Quote from: Scarpia on June 27, 2017, 10:17:09 AM
Another set that I loved was Haitink....


YES!!!  8)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 12:20:10 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 27, 2017, 11:25:27 AM
I'll tell you which Pastoral is not my favorite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4an0DqtwB9M&list=RD4an0DqtwB9M&index=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4an0DqtwB9M&list=RD4an0DqtwB9M&index=1)

or this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emq3M6DpXMY&t=8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emq3M6DpXMY&t=8s)
that trumpet solo makes you cringe around the 20 min mark...

So bad it is funny.
Like the Portsmouth Sinfonia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpJ6anurfuw
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 27, 2017, 12:35:52 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 12:20:10 PM
Like the Portsmouth Sinfonia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpJ6anurfuw

LOL !

Wait till they tackle Alpensinfonie !

Which brings the obvious point that how much orchestral execution is taken for granted as professional and even semi-professional groups routinely dust off these pieces with minimal gaffs...

Just so we get that out of our ears I give you this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sED7SmYJvC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sED7SmYJvC8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 27, 2017, 01:34:26 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 27, 2017, 10:17:09 AMI have and greatly enjoy the Davis Box
Always great to hear different experiences, because for me the Davis box is literally the weakest that I know (and I played almost all RVW cycles). It was widely praised because of its energetic Sixth - the first to appear - but I found most following symphonies disappointing and stopped playing them altogether. Even the Naxos cycle (mostly by Kees Bakels) is far better, IMHO.

Quote from: Scarpia on June 27, 2017, 11:11:57 AMThere is no cycle, but I have enjoyed every Barbirolli recording of RVW that I have heard.
Happily we agree on that.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on June 27, 2017, 04:06:02 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 03:52:33 AM
The version with Andre Previn and the LSO is by far my favourite. The Mark Elder version is also excellent.

Listening to Previn's Pastoral now.  Freaking gorgeous.  I think this is RVW at his most Ravelian.  I just so much love his LSO/RVW sound.  So very special.  I am surprised to learn he is still alive.  I haven't seen any performances or recordings from him in years. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on June 27, 2017, 04:13:08 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 27, 2017, 11:25:27 AM
I'll tell you which Pastoral is not my favorite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4an0DqtwB9M&list=RD4an0DqtwB9M&index=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4an0DqtwB9M&list=RD4an0DqtwB9M&index=1)

or this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emq3M6DpXMY&t=8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emq3M6DpXMY&t=8s)
that trumpet solo makes you cringe around the 20 min mark...

So bad it is funny.

You wouldn't be comparing amateur orchestras (which frankly serve a very important role in music history) with the creme de la creme professional performances are you? 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 27, 2017, 05:07:56 PM
Quote from: relm1 on June 27, 2017, 04:13:08 PM
You wouldn't be comparing amateur orchestras (which frankly serve a very important role in music history) with the creme de la creme professional performances are you?
Of course not, but a lot of amateur orchestras play very very well. Also I would say major university orchestras if given enough rehearsals can pull off a level of execution close to what a professional orchestra can do. I am sorry those 2 videos were just too funny...

Quote from: relm1 on June 27, 2017, 04:06:02 PM
Listening to Previn's Pastoral now.  Freaking gorgeous.  I think this is RVW at his most Ravelian.  I just so much love his LSO/RVW sound.  So very special.  I am surprised to learn he is still alive.  I haven't seen any performances or recordings from him in years.
Didn't he stop making classical recordings so he could focus on jazz and other genres? Yes a very special VW cycle, I don't think I have heard a better 2nd. He gets the tempo just right in every mvt in that piece and there is a rawness in the playing that jumps out at you. Too bad some bloke keeps talking between mvts of the Sinfonia Antarctica, really distracting in between some great music.
I also enjoy the VW recordings of the other great American conductor Leonard Slatkin with the Philharmonia, picked up his cycle before it goes OOP, again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 10:30:38 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 27, 2017, 12:35:52 PM
LOL !

Wait till they tackle Alpensinfonie !

Which brings the obvious point that how much orchestral execution is taken for granted as professional and even semi-professional groups routinely dust off these pieces with minimal gaffs...

Just so we get that out of our ears I give you this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sED7SmYJvC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sED7SmYJvC8)
Yes, that was a good antidote to the Portsmouth Sinfonia!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 10:34:15 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 27, 2017, 05:07:56 PM
Of course not, but a lot of amateur orchestras play very very well. Also I would say major university orchestras if given enough rehearsals can pull off a level of execution close to what a professional orchestra can do. I am sorry those 2 videos were just too funny...
Didn't he stop making classical recordings so he could focus on jazz and other genres? Yes a very special VW cycle, I don't think I have heard a better 2nd. He gets the tempo just right in every mvt in that piece and there is a rawness in the playing that jumps out at you. Too bad some bloke keeps talking between mvts of the Sinfonia Antarctica, really distracting in between some great music.
I also enjoy the VW recordings of the other great American conductor Leonard Slatkin with the Philharmonia, picked up his cycle before it goes OOP, again.
I agree - I think that Previn LSO RCA cycle contains the best 2,3 and 8 on disc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on June 28, 2017, 05:35:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 10:34:15 PM
I agree - I think that Previn LSO RCA cycle contains the best 2,3 and 8 on disc.

I think the Previn/LSO RCA cycle contains the best 5 and 9 on disc.  7 and 8 are very good too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 28, 2017, 06:26:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 10:30:38 PM
Yes, that was a good antidote to the Portsmouth Sinfonia!
They picked a cool name though...so professional sounding, like the Northern Sinfonia...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 28, 2017, 06:56:42 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 25, 2017, 05:47:43 AM
Anyone heard The Lark Ascending from here featuring Iona Brown on the violin?

As I recall, Iona Brown was the Building a Library top recommendation, back in the day.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 28, 2017, 09:57:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 27, 2017, 12:20:10 PMLike the Portsmouth Sinfonia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpJ6anurfuw
Love it. They would make a strong impression at presidential state visits in Egypt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGvaO6zubLs
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 28, 2017, 10:35:40 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 28, 2017, 09:57:45 AM
Love it. They would make a strong impression at presidential state visits in Egypt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGvaO6zubLs
Excellent! And here are the Portsmouth Sinfonia again, this time accompanying the famous space station scene from '2001: A Space Odyssey' with 'The Blue Danube'.

https://youtu.be/T2L9IMC4r7Q


The entirety of their great album 'The Portsmouth Sinfonia play the Popular Classics' is on You Tube. Highlights include The William Tell Overture and In the Hall of the Mountain King.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 28, 2017, 10:46:11 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 28, 2017, 05:35:48 AM
I think the Previn/LSO RCA cycle contains the best 5 and 9 on disc.  7 and 8 are very good too.
I don't disagree with this either. No 5 is wonderful although I marginally prefer Barbirolli's EMI recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on June 28, 2017, 04:21:45 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 28, 2017, 10:46:11 AM
I don't disagree with this either. No 5 is wonderful although I marginally prefer Barbirolli's EMI recording.

I will re-listen to that but to me, there are just so many breathtakingly poignant moments in Previn's LSO No. 5.  I don't think he captured quite the same magic with the Royal Phil though the sound is better.  The phrasing, breathing, sense of nostalgia is just so palpable.  I think in some ways, this symphony captures a longing for a place and time that are gone forever.  Sort of like a Rachmaninoff piece written during his self imposed exile and longing for a Russia of his youth that will never again exist.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 29, 2017, 12:07:00 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 28, 2017, 04:21:45 PMI think in some ways, this symphony captures a longing for a place and time that are gone forever. 
Well said. Something similar holds true for the Pastoral and even the Lark Ascending - which on completion after WWI he made even more into a monument of a lost world before. The big difference is, that the Pastoral and Fifth not only bring in nostalgia and innocence, but also awareness of the present tragedy and life wisdom.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 29, 2017, 02:39:04 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 28, 2017, 04:21:45 PM
I will re-listen to that but to me, there are just so many breathtakingly poignant moments in Previn's LSO No. 5.  I don't think he captured quite the same magic with the Royal Phil though the sound is better.  The phrasing, breathing, sense of nostalgia is just so palpable.  I think in some ways, this symphony captures a longing for a place and time that are gone forever.  Sort of like a Rachmaninoff piece written during his self imposed exile and longing for a Russia of his youth that will never again exist.
+1 or actually +2
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 04, 2017, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 29, 2012, 11:40:05 PM
For me the Violin Sonata with the SQ No 2 is VW's finest chamber works. It's one of those late craggy works which greatly appeal to me

Repeated praise for this work caused me to pick up this disc:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51q35ENKnqL.jpg)

The Violin Sonata is indeed late and craggy, but more importantly, a couple of listens have convinced me it really is a first-rate piece of chamber music. I don't normally associate VW with chamber music, but this strikes me as being on the same quality level as those late Shostakovich sonatas (violin and viola).

The rest of the disc is good, but the late craggy Violin Sonata is the highlight.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 04, 2017, 12:17:57 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 04, 2017, 09:30:36 AM
Repeated praise for this work caused me to pick up this disc:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51q35ENKnqL.jpg)

The Violin Sonata is indeed late and craggy, but more importantly, a couple of listens have convinced me it really is a first-rate piece of chamber music. I don't normally associate VW with chamber music, but this strikes me as being on the same quality level as those late Shostakovich sonatas (violin and viola).

The rest of the disc is good, but the late craggy Violin Sonata is the highlight.
Delighted that you enjoyed and it does indeed rate highly in the 'late craggy' chamber music genre ( 8)).
I don't think that the Shostakovich comparison is misplaced either and agree with you. We don't hear much about Vaughan Williams's chamber works as he didn't write that much, preferring orchestral and vocal/choral works instead. There is not that much piano music either although I like 'The Lake in the Mountains' piano adaptation of one of VW's film scores, which also features on your new CD. I recall a good late photo of VW in the booklet too - looking especially craggy in his tweed jacket if I remember correctly. The SQ No.2 'For Jean on her Birthday' is VG as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 07, 2017, 09:55:23 PM
Interesting looking new collection. Always interesting to hear a non-British orchestra playing VW.
[asin]B072MPK7MM[/asin]
As a resident of Sussex I obviously have to have this CD.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 08, 2017, 12:30:24 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 07, 2017, 09:55:23 PMAlways interesting to hear a non-British orchestra playing VW.
Really? "Deutsche Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz" sounds very English to my ears.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 08, 2017, 06:02:52 AM
Quote from: Christo on July 08, 2017, 12:30:24 AM
Really? "Deutsche Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz" sounds very English to my ears.  :D
You're absolutely right - they're based in Basingstoke.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 05, 2017, 02:17:35 PM
New release:
[asin]B073LP591V[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 05, 2017, 02:17:35 PM
New release:
[asin]B073LP591V[/asin]
In April, Sir Mark Elder did the Fourth in Rotterdam, but not without first adressing the audience. He's the foremost RVW conductor of our times. He's the first to reverse the order: the Fourth after the Sixth. As I prefer the Sixth, it might help.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2017, 01:26:43 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
In April, Sir Mark Elder did the Fourth in Rotterdam, but not without first adressing the audience. He's the foremost RVW conductor of our times. He's the first to reverse the order: the Fourth after the Sixth. As I prefer the Sixth, it might help.  :)
Me too. They tend to link 4 and 6 as the stormiest but I wish they would work chronologically like 5 and 6 together (Slatkin and Marriner).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2017, 04:20:30 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 07, 2017, 09:55:23 PM
Interesting looking new collection. Always interesting to hear a non-British orchestra playing VW.
[asin]B072MPK7MM[/asin]
As a resident of Sussex I obviously have to have this CD.  8)

And as a resident of Rheinland-Pfalz (the Staatsphilharmonie is my local band) I obviously have to have this CD too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on August 06, 2017, 04:26:41 PM
What can you do,Sarge?! ::) ;D It does sound intriguing,though! A good orchestra too;from what I've heard of them.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2017, 04:52:33 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 06, 2017, 04:26:41 PM
What can you do,Sarge?! ::) ;D It does sound intriguing,though! A good orchestra too;from what I've heard of them.

Yes, the program is appealing and the orchestra a good one. Pre-ordered it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 07, 2017, 03:31:58 AM
The Poisoned Kiss: an opera? Or instrumental music from?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 07, 2017, 04:02:49 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 07, 2017, 03:31:58 AM
The Poisoned Kiss: an opera? Or instrumental music from?
Just the - rather brisk and crisp - Overture from the opera.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 07, 2017, 04:30:53 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 07, 2017, 04:02:49 AM
Just the - rather brisk and crisp - Overture from the opera.

Thanks. Based on Hawthorne's "Rappaccini's Daughter," or do I misremember?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on August 13, 2017, 04:56:05 AM
The Poisoned Kiss is my favourite Vaughan Williams opera. Although,he was trying to emulate Gilbert and Sullivan;it doesn't come across as an operetta. I should know? My shelves are groaning (literally?!!) with them.

I've been listening to recordings of the Sinfonia Antartica. I generally like Boult's recordings of VW;but I have to say that his stereo recording of it seemed a bit of a snooze-fest next to Previn and Haitink. I actually used to like it before I heard them! I also much prefer Boult's earlier mono recording. I actually like the ones with the talking bits. (That said,I hope they don't do one with Simon Callow!! ::) ).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2017, 05:50:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 07, 2017, 09:55:23 PM
Interesting looking new collection. Always interesting to hear a non-British orchestra playing VW.
[asin]B072MPK7MM[/asin]
As a resident of Sussex I obviously have to have this CD.  8)
Don't hesitate with this - it's a very fine CD. I enjoyed it enormously. All credit to the Deutsche Staatsphilhamonie Rheinland-Pflalz and their conductor Karl-Heinz Steffens as well as Martin Rummel the cellist in the Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes (1924/25). The performance of 'In the Fen Country' - perhaps the first work of VW's musical maturity was, I thought, deeply moving and beautifully recorded - the highlight of the CD although I enjoyed every work from the folksy 'Poisoned Kiss Overture' to 'The England of Elizabeth' with its echoes of the contemporaneous Ninth Symphony. I listened to the CD for the first time having dropped my daughter off at Gatwick Airport for her return flight to The Ukraine so maybe my sad mood influenced my response to 'In the Fen Country' but I'm just playing through the whole disc again and find the performance to be wonderfully impassioned. Interesting to get a mid-European view of this music, including the thoughtful booklet notes. The icing on the cake is two fine photos of VW from opposite ends of his careeer - in military uniform and a characteristic warm-hearted photo of him from much later. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2017, 06:00:10 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 13, 2017, 04:56:05 AM
The Poisoned Kiss is my favourite Vaughan Williams opera. Although,he was trying to emulate Gilbert and Sullivan;it doesn't come across as an operetta. I should know? My shelves are groaning (literally?!!) with them.

I've been listening to recordings of the Sinfonia Antartica. I generally like Boult's recordings of VW;but I have to say that his stereo recording of it seemed a bit of a snooze-fest next to Previn and Haitink. I actually used to like it before I heard them! I also much prefer Boult's earlier mono recording. I actually like the ones with the talking bits. (That said,I hope they don't do one with Simon Callow!! ::) ).
The early Boult/Decca Sinfonia Antartica is IMHO the best performance on record although there are many more recent recordings. VW would presumably have been in the studio for the recording. There is something about Boult's objective way with VW which really suits the symphony.
I'm also happy to have the spoken excerpts included and agree that a recording with Simon Callow (recorded live from the Hospital for Overacting) would not be recommended. The late Robert Hardy was another inmate there.
8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on August 17, 2017, 08:20:07 AM
I seem to be turning into a big fan of the Fourth Symphony,of late! I love this combination. No's 3 and 4,on the same cd. Only a few months ago I would have wanted the Fourth on a separate cd. Probably coupled with the Ninth. Now,I'm exhilarated by the prospect of those grinding chords crashing in after No 3!
Another combination I'm beginning to really enjoy is  No 6 & 9. I've got the Handley cd's at present,and they sound pretty good to me. I like his Vaughan Williams. They often seemed to be the first ones (or first,digital ones) I heard,back in the days when they actually stocked classical cd's,and musicassettes,in shops like WH Smiths and,the once ubiquitous,Woolworths!
I notice,the Previn and Haitink cd's couple 3 & 4,and Previn 6 & 9. Any thoughts?!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 17, 2017, 09:15:59 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 17, 2017, 08:20:07 AM
I seem to be turning into a big fan of the Fourth Symphony,of late! I love this combination. No's 3 and 4,on the same cd. Only a few months ago I would have wanted the Fourth on a separate cd. Probably coupled with the Ninth. Now,I'm exhilarated by the prospect of those grinding chords crashing in after No 3!

My work here is done . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 09, 2017, 03:07:09 PM
Final release in Hickox/Davis cycle:
[asin]B07578TXZ3[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 12, 2017, 02:53:13 AM
Another great looking new release - especially as it is of the 1920 version and therefore includes the magical, poetic section just before the Epilogue which Vaughan Williams excised (mistakenly IMHO) in 1936.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Hyperion/CDA68190
Great cover art and interesting shorter works. Definitely on my Christmas list!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on September 12, 2017, 06:59:10 AM
So there are no more major works of RVW awaiting a recording, right?  We now have all there is?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 12, 2017, 12:55:50 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 12, 2017, 06:59:10 AMSo there are no more major works of RVW awaiting a recording, right?  We now have all there is?
Certainly not. There still is:
- incidental music for The Merry Wives of Windsor (1913), Richard II (1913), Henry IV (1913), Richard III (1913), Henry V (1913), The Devil's Disciple (1913);
- the orchestral version of On Christmas Night (1926) (it's on Youtube in a live performance by the Limburg SO and it's even better);
- The Abinger Pageant (1934, a cooperation with E.M. Forster) and the other pageant they cooperated on in the 1930s, cannot remember its name at the moment, but together they would make another great CD with a story worth telling;
- the Cello Concerto (1942-58, no doubt somebody is going to finish it  :D ).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on September 12, 2017, 04:17:24 PM
Quote from: Christo on September 12, 2017, 12:55:50 PM
Certainly not. There still is:
- incidental music for The Merry Wives of Windsor (1913), Richard II (1913), Henry IV (1913), Richard III (1913), Henry V (1913), The Devil's Disciple (1913);
- the orchestral version of On Christmas Night (1926) (it's on Youtube in a live performance by the Limburg SO and it's even better);
- The Abinger Pageant (1934, a cooperation with E.M. Forster) and the other pageant they cooperated on in the 1930s, cannot remember its name at the moment, but together they would make another great CD with a story worth telling;
- the Cello Concerto (1942-58, no doubt somebody is going to finish it  :D ).

I thought what we have of the Cello Concerto is David Matthews's dark pastoral and of your incidental music list, I have many of these on CD so I am confused by your list.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 12, 2017, 05:09:27 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 12, 2017, 04:17:24 PMI thought what we have of the Cello Concerto is David Matthews's dark pastoral and of your incidental music list, I have many of these on CD so I am confused by your list.
Dark Pastoral is what David Matthews could make of the slow movement, isn't it? But please tell me: what CD - I think there's one in the making, but don't know it yet - contains these incidental music compositions from 1913?  ::)
(There are a number of earlier pieces still unrecorded, but the question was about 'major works').
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on September 13, 2017, 07:10:46 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 12, 2017, 06:59:10 AM
So there are no more major works of RVW awaiting a recording, right?  We now have all there is?

Before his death wasn't RVW also working on a choral or operatic work called Thomas The Rhymer (which is also a folk song in its own right)?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 14, 2017, 11:30:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 12, 2017, 02:53:13 AM
Another great looking new release - especially as it is of the 1920 version and therefore includes the magical, poetic section just before the Epilogue which Vaughan Williams excised (mistakenly IMHO) in 1936.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Hyperion/CDA68190
Great cover art and interesting shorter works. Definitely on my Christmas list!

Let's get a closer look at the cover art and the track information:

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571281902.png)

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/68190-B.pdf (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/68190-B.pdf)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 15, 2017, 01:41:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 14, 2017, 11:30:32 AM
Let's get a closer look at the cover art and the track information:

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571281902.png)

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/68190-B.pdf (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/68190-B.pdf)
Thanks John.
love the cover art!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 15, 2017, 06:24:42 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 12, 2017, 12:55:50 PM
Certainly not. There still is:
- incidental music for The Merry Wives of Windsor (1913), Richard II (1913), Henry IV (1913), Richard III (1913), Henry V (1913), The Devil's Disciple (1913)

Is incidental music major work?  Not that your post is not fully of interest, mind.  I was just a little surprised at the reply.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 15, 2017, 06:26:10 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 12, 2017, 02:53:13 AM
Another great looking new release - especially as it is of the 1920 version and therefore includes the magical, poetic section just before the Epilogue which Vaughan Williams excised (mistakenly IMHO) in 1936.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Hyperion/CDA68190 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Hyperion/CDA68190)
Great cover art and interesting shorter works. Definitely on my Christmas list!

So is this the same version as the Hickox, or an intermediary version?  Draw me a diagram, I prithee!  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 15, 2017, 10:55:00 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 15, 2017, 06:26:10 AMSo is this the same version as the Hickox, or an intermediary version?  Draw me a diagram, I prithee!  0:)
It's simple, in letters:
1914  A London  - the full score, lasting over an hour
1920  A Lnden  - drastic cuts in the slow movement and finale, but adding some new music to the scherzo
1934  A Lden   - more drastic cuts in the slow movement and finale, about 20 minutes of the music in total,
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 15, 2017, 11:01:01 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 15, 2017, 10:55:00 AM
It's simple, in letters:
1914  A London  - the full score, lasting over an hour
1920  A Lnden  - drastic cuts in the slow movement and finale, but adding some new music to the scherzo
1934  A Lden   - more drastic cuts in the slow movement and finale, about 20 minutes of the music in total,

Thx!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on September 15, 2017, 04:31:28 PM
Quote from: Christo on September 15, 2017, 10:55:00 AM
It's simple, in letters:
1914  A London  - the full score, lasting over an hour
1920  A Lnden  - drastic cuts in the slow movement and finale, but adding some new music to the scherzo
1934  A Lden   - more drastic cuts in the slow movement and finale, about 20 minutes of the music in total,

Hahaha.  Brilliant :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 15, 2017, 11:33:31 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 14, 2017, 11:30:32 AM
Let's get a closer look at the cover art and the track information:

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571281902.png)

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/68190-B.pdf (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/68190-B.pdf)

I think that the school I attended as a boy is in the image  :o
It was on the Victoria Embankment on the same side of the river as St Paul's Cathedral. Certainly the building with the spire looks like it - how weird!
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=city+of+london+school+victoria+embankment&prmd=mniv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJ1rC8l6nWAhVBIMAKHYI5Bt4Q_AUIEygD&biw=1024&bih=672#imgrc=NzulVUdLN6DjhM:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 16, 2017, 05:57:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 15, 2017, 11:33:31 PM
I think that the school I attended as a boy is in the image  :o
It was on the Victoria Embankment on the same side of the river as St Paul's Cathedral. Certainly the building with the spire looks like it - how weird!
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=city+of+london+school+victoria+embankment&prmd=mniv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJ1rC8l6nWAhVBIMAKHYI5Bt4Q_AUIEygD&biw=1024&bih=672#imgrc=NzulVUdLN6DjhM:

I bet that is pretty surreal to see, Jeffrey. Freaky! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 16, 2017, 06:57:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 16, 2017, 05:57:49 AM
I bet that is pretty surreal to see, Jeffrey. Freaky! :)
Sure is John. It's in the right place on the Thames Embankment and is the right shape!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on September 16, 2017, 11:43:56 PM
Was that lighthouse for real?  I first visited London as a small boy in the early '50s and I don't remember that anywhere along the Thames in the city.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 17, 2017, 01:10:44 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 16, 2017, 11:43:56 PM
Was that lighthouse for real?  I first visited London as a small boy in the early '50s and I don't remember that anywhere along the Thames in the city.
No, it's a composite picture. Big Ben (now sadly silenced for repairs  :() is not next to St Paul's as in the picture.
That building with the spire, on the other side of the river on the left, does look like my old school and is in the right place on the Embankment in relation to St Paul's Cathedral.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2017, 04:45:52 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 12, 2017, 05:09:27 PM
Dark Pastoral is what David Matthews could make of the slow movement, isn't it? But please tell me: what CD - I think there's one in the making, but don't know it yet - contains these incidental music compositions from 1913?  ::)
(There are a number of earlier pieces still unrecorded, but the question was about 'major works').
Can't find your original post but you are quite right about 'The Bridal Day'. Can't understand how I missed this fine work before.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on September 26, 2017, 07:52:30 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 15, 2017, 10:55:00 AM
It's simple, in letters:
1914  A London  - the full score, lasting over an hour
1920  A Lnden  - drastic cuts in the slow movement and finale, but adding some new music to the scherzo
1934  A Lden   - more drastic cuts in the slow movement and finale, about 20 minutes of the music in total,

Can you clarify something for me please? Was the new music that was added to the 1920 version also retained in the 1934 version? Also, if we've heard the 1914 and 1920 versions, is there any material that remains exclusive to the 1934 version? 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2017, 08:14:26 AM
Quote from: Oates on September 26, 2017, 07:52:30 AM
Can you clarify something for me please? Was the new music that was added to the 1920 version also retained in the 1934 version? Also, if we've heard the 1914 and 1920 versions, is there any material that remains exclusive to the 1934 version?

No doubt Johan (Christo) will reply separately but my understanding is:

Original version from 1914 (lost in World War One, reconstructed in 1915)

1920 revised version (recorded by Eugene Goossens in Cincinnati in 1941)

1936 final version

In my opinion (and Richard Hickox's) VW cut out the most moving section of the Symphony (towards the end) in 1936 and should have kept the 1920 version as the final version.

There's some useful stuff here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on October 14, 2017, 05:12:20 PM
For what it's worth, I did not think very highly of the new Chandos Andrew Davis/Bergen Philharmonic recording of RVW Sinfonia Antartica.  The balance is quite of.  For example, if you follow along in the score, when there are climactic moments of fortissimo trombones and fortissimo violins, they will not be the same level.  The trombones are so recessed compared to other instruments that it is very unnatural.  This might be an overly produced recording but the musicality of the recording is quite weak compared to other recordings of Andre Previn and Sir Adrian Boult who set the bar very high in terms of musical interpretation and execution.  I believe I have heard every recording of this work (or at least own 15 recordings so far) and will say this is in the bottom third.  My favorites in terms of musical quality, atmosphere, interpretation, performance, recording quality are Sir Adrian Boult/LPO, Andre Previn/LSO, Kees Bakels/BSO.  I need to relisten to Bernard Haitink's LPO recording.  I find him inconsistent.  He was superb in the Sea Symphony and dreadful in Symphony No. 9 whereas Boult and Previn are consistently good.

I think my perfect version would be the Andre Previn/LSO in remastered/prestine sound but with Boult's LPO Landscape movement.  In my opinion, that would be the best interpreted and performed version of this work. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 14, 2017, 05:26:55 PM
Quote from: relm1 on October 14, 2017, 05:12:20 PM
For what it's worth, I did not think very highly of the new Chandos Andrew Davis/Bergen Philharmonic recording of RVW Sinfonia Antartica.  The balance is quite of.  For example, if you follow along in the score, when there are climactic moments of fortissimo trombones and fortissimo violins, they will not be the same level.  The trombones are so recessed compared to other instruments that it is very unnatural.  This might be an overly produced recording but the musicality of the recording is quite weak compared to other recordings of Andre Previn and Sir Adrian Boult who set the bar very high in terms of musical interpretation and execution.  I believe I have heard every recording of this work (or at least own 15 recordings so far) and will say this is in the bottom third.  My favorites in terms of musical quality, atmosphere, interpretation, performance, recording quality are Sir Adrian Boult/LPO, Andre Previn/LSO, Kees Bakels/BSO.  I need to relisten to Bernard Haitink's LPO recording.  I find him inconsistent.  He was superb in the Sea Symphony and dreadful in Symphony No. 9 whereas Boult and Previn are consistently good.

I think my perfect version would be the Andre Previn/LSO in remastered/prestine sound but with Boult's LPO Landscape movement.  In my opinion, that would be the best interpreted and performed version of this work.

I can't say that I'm surprised as I've been thoroughly disappointed with Davis' RVW all-around. I hate to say this of course as I do feel like Davis, Elder, and Lloyd-Jones are really like the 'keepers of the British flame' so to speak, but I never have been so bored with RVW's music as I have with Davis' performances (whether on Warner or Chandos). Previn, Boult, and to a lesser extent, Thomson, have been my go-to RVW interpreters and it seems this won't change anytime soon. Now Davis' Elgar, on the other hand, is a whole other kettle of fish. Quite superb I must say.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 15, 2017, 01:08:49 AM
I have the new CD but have only listened to it once. Actually it was the double piano concerto and Four Last Songs which appealed to me rather than the symphony. Boult's early Decca recording of Sinfonia Antartica is my favourite version. Boult's objective way with VW really suits this symphony in my view. I also greatly enjoyed the recently released complete film music for 'Scott of the Antarctic' on Dutton.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 17, 2017, 03:37:33 PM
Saw a terrific semi-staged performance of the one act opera 'Riders to the Sea' in Waterloo, London tonight. It was terrific. The first time I have heard it live.
Title: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 17, 2017, 03:42:07 PM
Cool!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Parsifal on November 17, 2017, 03:47:51 PM
Any comments on the recently released 1920 version of the London symphony, compared with Hickox's recording of the original version? (which I have)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2017, 04:56:07 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 17, 2017, 03:47:51 PM
Any comments on the recently released 1920 version of the London symphony, compared with Hickox's recording of the original version? (which I have)

Hopefully, eljr (I think this is his screen name) can chime in here since he recently listened to this recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 17, 2017, 11:53:45 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 17, 2017, 03:47:51 PM
Any comments on the recently released 1920 version of the London symphony, compared with Hickox's recording of the original version? (which I have)

I have the new version but haven't listened to it yet. Hopefully will do over the weekend. Reviews were very good. There are two other recordings of the 1920 version on Dutton and a historic one with the Cincinnati SO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2017, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 17, 2017, 03:42:07 PM
Cool!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Yes, it was indeed Karl. The inclusion of Walton's 'Henry V: A Shakespeare Scenario' in part two (which utilised some French folk songs recommended to Walton by Vaughan Williams) was the icing on the cake.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Parsifal on November 18, 2017, 09:58:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 14, 2017, 05:26:55 PM
I can't say that I'm surprised as I've been thoroughly disappointed with Davis' RVW all-around. I hate to say this of course as I do feel like Davis, Elder, and Lloyd-Jones are really like the 'keepers of the British flame' so to speak, but I never have been so bored with RVW's music as I have with Davis' performances (whether on Warner or Chandos). Previn, Boult, and to a lesser extent, Thomson, have been my go-to RVW interpreters and it seems this won't change anytime soon. Now Davis' Elgar, on the other hand, is a whole other kettle of fish. Quite superb I must say.

My experience is different. I was very negative on VW after listening to Boult/EMI (as I recalled after reading old posts I made here many years ago) but discover a love for his symphonies after listening to Davis and Haitink.

Anyway, I'm leaning towards getting the new recording of the 1920 version from Hyperion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2017, 12:02:58 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 18, 2017, 09:58:49 AM
My experience is different. I was very negative on VW after listening to Boult/EMI (as I recalled after reading old posts I made here many years ago) but discover a love for his symphonies after listening to Davis and Haitink.

Anyway, I'm leaning towards getting the new recording of the 1920 version from Hyperion.

I'm sure you won't regret it and there are some interesting shorter pieces on the CD.

Here is a review to help you make up your mind:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Nov/VW_London_CDA68190.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 18, 2017, 05:35:57 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 18, 2017, 09:58:49 AM
My experience is different. I was very negative on VW after listening to Boult/EMI (as I recalled after reading old posts I made here many years ago) but discover a love for his symphonies after listening to Davis and Haitink.

Anyway, I'm leaning towards getting the new recording of the 1920 version from Hyperion.

You and I are pretty much like polar opposites when it comes to recordings, so your opinion comes as no surprise to me. Let us know what you think of the Brabbins if you decide to get it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 18, 2017, 10:42:40 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 18, 2017, 09:58:49 AMMy experience is different. I was very negative on VW after listening to Boult/EMI (as I recalled after reading old posts I made here many years ago) but discover a love for his symphonies after listening to Davis and Haitink.

Opinions on the Haitink series differ widely, but AFAIK the generally shared verdict on the Davis, here, has been very negative. I myself found them by far the weakest, underpowered and flat. Compare them with e.g. Thomson, Previn or even Slatkin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 19, 2017, 12:09:37 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 18, 2017, 10:42:40 PM
Opinions on the Haitink series differ widely, but AFAIK the generally shared verdict on the Davis, here, has been very negative. I myself found them by far the weakest, underpowered and flat. Compare them with e.g. Thomson, Previn or even Slatkin.
Davis's No.6 was highly rated. Unfortunately, for many, the series went downhill from there. I have been listening to the new Davis Bergen versions of symphonies 7, 9 and Job which I prefer to his original versions. I think that both his versions, however, are incomparably better to the recordings of VW symphonies by Sir Roger Norrington which, with the exception of No.3, I think are unidiomatic and completely unengaging. Because I grew up with them I remain very attached to that first Boult Decca/Everest Cycle.

Fave versions:
No.1 Haitink
No.2 Previn/Boult EMI (1936), Brabbins/Goosens (1920) Hickox (1913)
No.3 Previn
No.4 Berglund
No.5 Barbirolli (EMI)
No.6 Boult (Decca)
No.7 Boult (Decca)
No.8 Previn
No.9 Stokowski

If I wanted a more modern cycle I'd opt for Thomson, whose performances I rate higher than many.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 19, 2017, 01:53:46 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 14, 2017, 11:30:32 AM
Let's get a closer look at the cover art and the track information:

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571281902.png)

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/68190-B.pdf (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/68190-B.pdf)
This is a wonderful performance and I'd go as far as to say that if you only want one version of A London Symphony - this is the one. It has a great sense of urgency and is beautifully performed and recorded. There is a definite sense IMHO of 'end of Empire' and looming catastrophe (WW1) than in other versions. The booklet notes are good, making a plausible link with Delius's 'Paris' and featuring two fine photos of the grumpy looking composer. Plus you get some interesting shorter works - not least the charming and powerful 'Variations' of 1957 for brass band (which I had to play again as soon as I heard it). Why VW excised that beautiful section, about twelve minutes into the last movement of A London Symphony, I shall never understand - it's my favourite part of the symphony and one of the most moving things he wrote. Here you can hear it in its full glory.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 19, 2017, 05:01:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 19, 2017, 01:53:46 AM
This is a wonderful performance and I'd go as far as to say that if you only want one version of A London Symphony - this is the one. It has a great sense of urgency and is beautifully performed and recorded. There is a definite sense IMHO of 'end of Empire' and looming catastrophe (WW1) than in other versions. The booklet notes are good, making a plausible link with Delius's 'Paris' and featuring two fine photos of the grumpy looking composer. Plus you get some interesting shorter works - not least the charming and powerful 'Variations' of 1957 for brass band (which I had to play again as soon as I heard it). Why VW excised that beautiful section, about twelve minutes into the last movement of A London Symphony, I shall never understand - it's my favourite part of the symphony and one of the most moving things he wrote. Here you can hear it in its full glory.

Sounds excellent, Jeffrey. Unfortunately, A London Symphony isn't one of my favorite RVW works. I'd put it on par with A Sea Symphony as being my two least favorite symphonies from him.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 19, 2017, 02:49:11 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 19, 2017, 05:01:51 AM
Sounds excellent, Jeffrey. Unfortunately, A London Symphony isn't one of my favorite RVW works. I'd put it on par with A Sea Symphony as being my two least favorite symphonies from him.
I think that having been born and brought up in central London gives this work an added appeal to me John. Having said that it was also Vaughan Williams's own favourite, of at least his first eight symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 19, 2017, 02:51:16 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 19, 2017, 02:49:11 PM
I think that having been born and brought up in central London gives this work an added appeal to me John. Having said that it was also Vaughan Williams's own favourite, of at least his first eight symphonies.

I wasn't aware that RVW thought so high of it! Makes me want to give it another listen, but I can't right now, I'm listening to Bernstein's CSO recording of Shostakovich's Leningrad. 8) I'll be sure to listen to the original 1913 version. Thankfully, I have the Hickox handy. :)

About you being raised a Londoner, your mindset is much different than mine as I wasn't raised in a city and spent most of my childhood (esp. age 5-14) in the woods.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 19, 2017, 02:57:32 PM
Since A London Symphony is the topic at hand, and this is for anyone who can answer this question, but what are the differences between the original 1913 and 1920 versions vs. the final revised version?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 20, 2017, 12:45:59 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 19, 2017, 02:57:32 PM
Since A London Symphony is the topic at hand, and this is for anyone who can answer this question, but what are the differences between the original 1913 and 1920 versions vs. the final revised version?
John - the 1936 version is about 15 minutes shorter than the 1913 version. There's a useful revision history here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony
I wish VW had stopped with the 1920 version. Bernard Herrmann, Arnold Bax and Adrian Boult thought so too! Hickox's CD of the original 1913 version is very special.
The first movement was never changed in any version as far as I'm aware. The biggest regret for me is VW's removal of about two minutes of intensely poetic music from the Epilogue in 1936.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2017, 05:46:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 20, 2017, 12:45:59 AM
John - the 1936 version is about 15 minutes shorter than the 1913 version. There's a useful revision history here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony
I wish VW had stopped with the 1920 version. Bernard Herrmann, Arnold Bax and Adrian Boult thought so too! Hickox's CD of the original 1913 version is very special.
The first movement was never changed in any version as far as I'm aware. The biggest regret for me is VW's removal of about two minutes of intensely poetic music from the Epilogue in 1936.

Thank you for your feedback, Jeffrey. I'll definitely be getting around to A London Symphony today.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 20, 2017, 08:53:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2017, 05:46:38 AM
Thank you for your feedback, Jeffrey. I'll definitely be getting around to A London Symphony today.
Hope you enjoy it John, whichever version and performance you listen to. Let us know what you think. Towards the endvof his life Vaughan Williams, having just heard a performance of A London Symphony, said to his friend, the conductor Sir John Barbirolli: 'I wish I could still orchestrate like that.'
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2017, 09:34:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 20, 2017, 08:53:36 AM
Hope you enjoy it John, whichever version and performance you listen to. Let us know what you think. Towards the endvof his life Vaughan Williams, having just heard a performance of A London Symphony, said to his friend, the conductor Sir John Barbirolli: 'I wish I could still orchestrate like that.'

That's one thing I always admired about Vaughan Williams was his modesty. Well, I do want to say that I like A London Symphony, but it doesn't, for me, represent the best the composer has done, which isn't to say that this symphony isn't great of course. When I listen to the next symphony, A Pastoral Symphony, I hear the composer finally coming unto his own and the music within that work truly sends my mind into another orbit. I don't mean to be too critical of ol' Ralph as he's one of my favorites, but even with favorites, I know when their music has that special kind of ingredient, but A Sea Symphony and A London Symphony doesn't quite have that kind of magic yet even though they're both accomplished works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 20, 2017, 10:04:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2017, 09:34:27 AM
That's one thing I always admired about Vaughan Williams was his modesty. Well, I do want to say that I like A London Symphony, but it doesn't, for me, represent the best the composer has done, which isn't to say that this symphony isn't great of course. When I listen to the next symphony, A Pastoral Symphony, I hear the composer finally coming unto his own and there music within that work truly sends my mind into another orbit. I don't mean to be too critical of ol' Ralph as he's one of my favorites, but even with favorites, I know when their music has that special kind of ingredient, but A Sea Symphony and A London Symphony doesn't quite have that kind of magic yet even though they're both accomplished works.
Exactly the same for me: only from the 'Pastoral' on, his symphonies are masterworks, one by one. There's much that I love in the 'London', especially the two middle movements, but for me much of it - especially the first and last movement - is still rather mainstream. A Pastoral Symphony is totally unique en utterly personal, unlike any other symphony. More or less the same applies to Nos. 4, 5, 6, 8 and 9, even 7, IMHO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2017, 10:32:35 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 20, 2017, 10:04:13 AMExactly the same for me: only from the 'Pastoral' on, his symphonies are masterworks, one by one. There's much that I love in the 'London', especially the two middle movements, but for me much of it - especially the first and last movement - is still rather mainstream. A Pastoral Symphony is totally unique en utterly personal, unlike any other symphony. More or less the same applies to Nos. 4, 5, 6, 8 and 9, even 7, IMHO.

Indeed, Johan. Man, now I want to listen to A Pastoral Symphony instead of A London Symphony. ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on November 20, 2017, 11:01:51 AM
Personally, I love A London Symphony and find it to be entirely characteristic RVW (unlike A Sea Symphony). Sure, it's not as refined as some of his later works, but I find it to be an atmospheric, often thrilling, and ultimately moving work. I haven't heard the original 1913 version - must check that out. I already find the revised ending to be great, so the original version must be something really special!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 20, 2017, 01:20:29 PM
Quote from: kyjo on November 20, 2017, 11:01:51 AM
Personally, I love A London Symphony and find it to be entirely characteristic RVW (unlike A Sea Symphony). Sure, it's not as refined as some of his later works, but I find it to be an atmospheric, often thrilling, and ultimately moving work. I haven't heard the original 1913 version - must check that out. I already find the revised ending to be great, so the original version must be something really special!
I'll be very interested to hear what you think of the original extended epilogue of A London Symphony Kyle. I now find it difficult to listen to the 1936 version as I'm always acutely aware of that missing section. I think that symphonies 4,5 and 6 are his greatest but I love them all. Michael Kennedy, the friend and biographer of RVW rated A Pastoral Symphony as the greatest. Decades ago I heard it live conducted by Norman Del Mar and thought the performance was terrible. I'm not sure that my opinion of the work ever quite recovered from that but Previn's RCA recording did a lot to reveal its greatness to me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on November 20, 2017, 02:38:10 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 20, 2017, 01:20:29 PM
I'll be very interested to hear what you think of the original extended epilogue of A London Symphony Kyle. I now find it difficult to listen to the 1936 version as I'm always acutely aware of that missing section. I think that symphonies 4,5 and 6 are his greatest but I love them all. Michael Kennedy, the friend and biographer of RVW rated A Pastoral Symphony as the greatest. Decades ago I heard it live conducted by Norman Del Mar and thought the performance was terrible. I'm not sure that my opinion of the work ever quite recovered from that but Previn's RCA recording did a lot to reveal its greatness to me.

I'll definitely check out the Hickox recording on Chandos of the original 1913 version! I'd also count the 9th amongst his greatest symphonies - an underrated and visionary work. Like you, I love them all and in order of preference I'd currently rank them: 6, 2, 9, 5, 4, 3, 8, 7, 1.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2017, 02:51:33 PM
Quote from: kyjo on November 20, 2017, 02:38:10 PM
I'll definitely check out the Hickox recording on Chandos of the original 1913 version! I'd also count the 9th amongst his greatest symphonies - an underrated and visionary work. Like you, I love them all and in order of preference I'd currently rank them: 6, 2, 9, 5, 4, 3, 8, 7, 1.

My ranking would look like: 5, 6, 3, 8, 4, 9, 7, 2, 1.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 20, 2017, 03:20:14 PM
My VW symphonic preference pyramid:

4
5, 6
3, 7, 8
1, 2, 9
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Parsifal on November 20, 2017, 03:27:06 PM
Quote from: kyjo on November 20, 2017, 02:38:10 PM
I'll definitely check out the Hickox recording on Chandos of the original 1913 version! I'd also count the 9th amongst his greatest symphonies - an underrated and visionary work. Like you, I love them all and in order of preference I'd currently rank them: 6, 2, 9, 5, 4, 3, 8, 7, 1.

I have to find time to listen to them again. I don't think I could rank them, except that I don't enjoy the 1st and 7th (due to the wind machine).

I hated Bout/EMI, but I've been through the Davis and Haitink cycles as well as a few individual recordings including the Barbirolli 5th. Thinking about Thomson/Chandos or Previn/RCA. I find it odd that a British record company like Decca never put together a modern Vaughan Williams cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2017, 05:09:41 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 20, 2017, 03:27:06 PM
I have to find time to listen to them again. I don't think I could rank them, except that I don't enjoy the 1st and 7th (due to the wind machine).

I hated Bout/EMI, but I've been through the Davis and Haitink cycles as well as a few individual recordings including the Barbirolli 5th. Thinking about Thomson/Chandos or Previn/RCA. I find it odd that a British record company like Decca never put together a modern Vaughan Williams cycle.

Previn's cycle is one of my top favorites along with the Boult (EMI) stereo cycle, which I think is still one of the best. Thomson's cycle has superb audio quality, but I don't find him as convincing as the afore mentioned favorites. Be sure to get the budget reissue if you decide on the Previn --- the audio has been greatly improved.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on November 20, 2017, 07:40:07 PM
My order would be like that:

2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 9, 8, 3

I also find the London Symphony quite appealing in spite of it's not properly mature as his latter ones. Since the A Sea Symphony I could perceive the distinction of Vaughan Williams as a terrific symphonic composer (as in other genres). A cycle I especially like, which is not often mentioned is that of Naxos. I can't complain about the performances in the symphonies 2 and 5-8. Perhaps the best ones of them are the No. 2 and No. 5 (the Scherzo in the 5th symphony is to my ears more atmospheric and definite than in other recordings).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 20, 2017, 09:39:13 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on November 20, 2017, 07:40:07 PM
My order would be like that:
2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 9, 8, 3

Haha! Mine something like:
3, 6, 9, 5, 8, 4, 7, 2, 1
or, almost mirroring your order.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 21, 2017, 03:39:13 AM
Being a list addict I've really enjoyed reading these lists - it has also kept me away from onerous domestic chores  >:D

My list would be:

6 9 2 (1913 or 1920 version) 5 8 7 1 4 3

This is a 'favourite' list as I would put 5 and 4 higher up a 'greatest' list. No.6 would remain No.1 in both lists.
I've been enjoying Thomson's recording of 'Sinfonia Antartica' in my car.
.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 21, 2017, 05:43:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 21, 2017, 03:39:13 AM
Being a list addict I've really enjoyed reading these lists - it has also kept me away from onerous domestic chores  >:D

My list would be:

6 9 2 (1913 or 1920 version) 5 8 7 1 4 3

This is a 'favourite' list as I would put 5 and 4 higher up a 'greatest' list. No.6 would remain No.1 in both lists.
I've been enjoying Thomson's recording of 'Sinfonia Antartica' in my car.
.

:o I'm surprised to see A Pastoral Symphony so low on your list, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 21, 2017, 06:02:29 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 20, 2017, 03:20:14 PM
My VW symphonic preference pyramid:

4
5, 6
3, 7, 8
1, 2, 9

Mine is a reverse pyramid (the double 2 reflects original and final revision).

4, 8, 9, 3
6, 2, 1
5, 2
7
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on November 21, 2017, 08:47:46 AM
I find the Hickox recording to be just too diffuse.  Too much fog.  It's a bygone age, there hasn't been a proper London fog since 1963 (I know, I was there).

563172...8...49
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Parsifal on November 21, 2017, 08:50:09 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 21, 2017, 08:47:46 AM
I find the Hickox recording to be just too diffuse.  Too much fog.

That's my general reaction to Hickox' Vaughan Williams recordings. Maybe I will get the new recording of the 1920 version for an appreciation of V-W's original conception of the A London Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 21, 2017, 02:17:48 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2017, 05:43:16 AM
:o I'm surprised to see A Pastoral Symphony so low on your list, Jeffrey.
I love all the symphonies. Haitink's recording of 'A Sea Symphony' was a revelation to me although the best music is definitely in the last movement. I think that I play No.3 less than the others but it is a great score and, of course, I respect the views of those who consider it to be RVW's greatest. I used to play it more, especially the Boult Decca and Previn RCA versions. The Elder is fine too. I'm fascinated by the 'Scott of the Antarctic' heroic disaster story so I rate Sinfonia Antartica higher than many. No.8 is the most underrated IMHO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 21, 2017, 02:18:37 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 21, 2017, 08:47:46 AM
I find the Hickox recording to be just too diffuse.  Too much fog.  It's a bygone age, there hasn't been a proper London fog since 1963 (I know, I was there).

563172...8...49

I was there too  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 21, 2017, 02:19:36 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 21, 2017, 08:50:09 AM
That's my general reaction to Hickox' Vaughan Williams recordings. Maybe I will get the new recording of the 1920 version for an appreciation of V-W's original conception of the A London Symphony.

The new Hyperion is a great performance and there are some interesting shorter works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on November 21, 2017, 02:27:35 PM
Quote from: Christo on November 20, 2017, 09:39:13 PM
Haha! Mine something like:
3, 6, 9, 5, 8, 4, 7, 2, 1
or, almost mirroring your order.  :D

Yes, almost a mirror of my preferences. Nothing less than curious  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 21, 2017, 02:44:07 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 21, 2017, 02:17:48 PM
I love all the symphonies. Haitink's recording of 'A Sea Symphony' was a revelation to me although the best music is definitely in the last movement. I think that I play No.3 less than the others but it is a great score and, of course, I respect the views of those who consider it to be RVW's greatest. I used to play it more, especially the Boult Decca and Previn RCA versions. The Elder is fine too. I'm fascinated by the 'Scott of the Antarctic' heroic disaster story so I rate Sinfonia Antartica higher than many. No.8 is the most underrated IMHO.

I rate the Sinfonia antartica higher than many, too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 21, 2017, 04:12:35 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 21, 2017, 02:17:48 PM
I love all the symphonies. Haitink's recording of 'A Sea Symphony' was a revelation to me although the best music is definitely in the last movement. I think that I play No.3 less than the others but it is a great score and, of course, I respect the views of those who consider it to be RVW's greatest. I used to play it more, especially the Boult Decca and Previn RCA versions. The Elder is fine too. I'm fascinated by the 'Scott of the Antarctic' heroic disaster story so I rate Sinfonia Antartica higher than many. No.8 is the most underrated IMHO.

I agree with this.  RVW is one of the greatest symphonists ever because of his consistency in the extremely high quality of each symphony he composed while not repeating himself.  Same with Beethoven, Sibelius, Mahler, etc. Every one was a home run though unique unto themselves.  Unique and distinctive yet characteristic of their creator's unique identity.  I love them all.  I have also found that his symphonies benefit from greater breadth/broader tempo in general.  With RVM, the music is greater than the notes. 

By the way, I just finished listening to Chandos/Bryden Thompson's excellent performance of No. 7 "Sinfonia Antartica" and found it very good but it doesn't displace Andre Previn or Adrian Boult for me.  Those have a special "other worldliness" quality that no one else can match. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 21, 2017, 06:28:08 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 21, 2017, 02:17:48 PM
I love all the symphonies. Haitink's recording of 'A Sea Symphony' was a revelation to me although the best music is definitely in the last movement. I think that I play No.3 less than the others but it is a great score and, of course, I respect the views of those who consider it to be RVW's greatest. I used to play it more, especially the Boult Decca and Previn RCA versions. The Elder is fine too. I'm fascinated by the 'Scott of the Antarctic' heroic disaster story so I rate Sinfonia Antartica higher than many. No.8 is the most underrated IMHO.

Ah, I see. I agree that Symphony No. 8 is underrated, but what wonderful, otherworldly textures that make their way into this work. This symphony, at one point, was my number one favorite from RVW, but each time I hear the 5th, it reminds of why it'll always remain my absolute favorite.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 21, 2017, 09:28:31 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 21, 2017, 02:44:07 PMI rate the Sinfonia antartica higher than many, too.
The point is not, that we don't admire the Antartica deeply - but that the 'absolute' symphonies are even finer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 22, 2017, 12:13:40 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 21, 2017, 04:12:35 PM
I agree with this.  RVW is one of the greatest symphonists ever because of his consistency in the extremely high quality of each symphony he composed while not repeating himself.  Same with Beethoven, Sibelius, Mahler, etc. Every one was a home run though unique unto themselves.  Unique and distinctive yet characteristic of their creator's unique identity.  I love them all.  I have also found that his symphonies benefit from greater breadth/broader tempo in general.  With RVM, the music is greater than the notes. 

By the way, I just finished listening to Chandos/Bryden Thompson's excellent performance of No. 7 "Sinfonia Antartica" and found it very good but it doesn't displace Andre Previn or Adrian Boult for me.  Those have a special "other worldliness" quality that no one else can match.
Coincidentally I listened to the Bryden Thomson 'Antartica' yesterday and enjoyed it as I enjoy all his VW performances. The Good CD Guide to top 1000 CDs recommended his No.6 as their top choice. I think that Boult (Decca) is in a class of his own for Sinfonia Antartica. After all, he had VW in the studio with him. Boult's objective way with VW really suits the Antartica as it does with No.6.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 22, 2017, 12:14:13 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 21, 2017, 09:28:31 PM
The point is not, that we don't admire the Antartica deeply - but that the 'absolute' symphonies are even finer.
I agree.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 22, 2017, 12:17:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2017, 06:28:08 PM
Ah, I see. I agree that Symphony No. 8 is underrated, but what wonderful, otherworldly textures that make their way into this work. This symphony, at one point, was my number one favorite from RVW, but each time I hear the 5th, it reminds of why it'll always remain my absolute favorite.

No.5 has a strong case to be considered the greatest - the most Sibelian too and dedicated to the great Finn. I like the recently discovered performance conducted by VW, although I know that you are not keen on historic recordings. Barbirolli's EMI version is a wonderfully warm-hearted account.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 22, 2017, 05:40:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 22, 2017, 12:17:20 AM
No.5 has a strong case to be considered the greatest - the most Sibelian too and dedicated to the great Finn. I like the recently discovered performance conducted by VW, although I know that you are not keen on historic recordings. Barbirolli's EMI version is a wonderfully warm-hearted account.

Oh yes, there is a strong Sibelian influence in this symphony, but it's obviously filtered through RVW's own musical sensibility and, most importantly, his heart. My favorite performance is Previn's on RCA. I think he gets all of the elements 'right' in this symphony, which, sometimes, doesn't always happen in many other performances I've heard.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 22, 2017, 06:15:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2017, 05:40:35 AM
Oh yes, there is a strong Sibelian influence in this symphony, but it's obviously filtered through RVW's own musical sensibility and, most importantly, his heart. My favorite performance is Previn's on RCA. I think he gets all of the elements 'right' in this symphony, which, sometimes, doesn't always happen in many other performances I've heard.
Previn's RCA recording is a great one. I think there is an argument that his recordings of symphonies 2 (1936), 3, 5 and 8 are the best available. I do not know of a better version of 3 or 8 and rank his version of A London Symphony alongside Boult and Barbirolli's EMI versions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 22, 2017, 11:31:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 21, 2017, 02:17:48 PM
. No.8 is the most underrated IMHO.

I love the 8th too - the 80+ years old VW making a holiday for himself. One of the best "lite" symphonies of the century, IMHO.

BTW I think I mentioned this before, but the structure and instrumentation of the 8th is very similar to Hindemith's Symphonia Serena, which had been composed a few years before. I wonder if it was an influence on VW, whether consciously or not.

There was a local performance of the 8th a few years ago, but sadly I missed it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2017, 12:22:02 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 22, 2017, 06:15:20 AM
Previn's RCA recording is a great one. I do not know of a better version of 3 or 8

While I agree that Previn's Third is a great one, the last time I did a comparative listening of the versions of 8 that I own, Previn and Rozh came out dead last. I think the problem with Previn, to my ears. was the quality of the recording more than the performance  In any case, I'll give it another try to see if I can understand why you rate it so highly.

Edit: Listening to it now. The sound, which is fine, is not the problem.

My current faves are Thomson, Haitink and Boult (EMI). They all have a relatively slow first movement.

Stokowski/BBC SO       12:46    2:59   9:39   4:51
Thomson/LSO              12:22    4:00   8:08   5:39
Haitink/LPO                 11:22    3:39   9:45   5:45
Boult/LPO EMI             11:09    3:55   8:35   4:44
Boult/LPO Decca          11:06    3:54   8:04   5:01
Bakels                         10:51    3:47   8:45   5:02
Davis/BBC                   10:46    3:36   8:27   5:16
Handley/RLPO              10:39    4:07   7:50   4:46
Previn/LSO                  10:15    3:42   9:22   5:15   
Barbirolli/Halle             10:10    3:37   7:43   4:59
Slatkin/Philharmonia     10:10    3:31   7:59   4:47   
Rozhdestvensky MofC     9:58    3:30   8:49   5:55

Sarge

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 22, 2017, 12:38:52 PM
Quote from: Christo on November 21, 2017, 09:28:31 PM
The point is not, that we don't admire the Antartica deeply - but that the 'absolute' symphonies are even finer.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 22, 2017, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 22, 2017, 11:31:36 AM
I love the 8th too - the 80+ years old VW making a holiday for himself. One of the best "lite" symphonies of the century, IMHO.

BTW I think I mentioned this before, but the structure and instrumentation of the 8th is very similar to Hindemith's Symphonia Serena, which had been composed a few years before. I wonder if it was an influence on VW, whether consciously or not.

There was a local performance of the 8th a few years ago, but sadly I missed it.

I seriously doubt that Hindemith was a influence. I mean RVW wasn't exactly smitten with the Germans the best to my memory. I seem to recall he had some negative things to say about Mahler. But this doesn't bother me nor should it bother anyone else, there are a lot of composers who say negative things about other composers all through history.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 22, 2017, 09:52:49 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2017, 04:37:29 PM
I seriously doubt that Hindemith was a influence. I mean RVW wasn't exactly smitten with the Germans the best to my memory. I seem to recall he had some negative things to say about Mahler. But this doesn't bother me nor should it bother anyone else, there are a lot of composers who say negative things about other composers all through history.
I have a feeling that I read somewhere that VW liked Hindemith's music but I might be quite wrong about this.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2017, 05:05:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2017, 04:37:29 PM
I seriously doubt that Hindemith was a influence.

That may well be but at least Michael Kennedy seems to hear a similarity between Hindemith and VW in the Scherzo:

"The Scherzo for winds has a pawky wit[...]The penguins from the Antarctic have taken a course with Hindemith, or so it might seem until the gentle mockery of a folk-song inflection betrays the true composer."

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2017, 04:37:29 PM
I mean RVW wasn't exactly smitten with the Germans the best to my memory. I seem to recall he had some negative things to say about Mahler.

True enough about Mahler but he did love Wagner.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2017, 05:43:58 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2017, 05:05:32 AM
That may well be but at least Michael Kennedy seems to hear a similarity between Hindemith and VW in the Scherzo:

"The Scherzo for winds has a pawky wit[...]The penguins from the Antarctic have taken a course with Hindemith, or so it might seem until the gentle mockery of a folk-song inflection betrays the true composer."

True enough about Mahler but he did love Wagner.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mahlerian on November 23, 2017, 06:08:43 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2017, 04:37:29 PM
I seriously doubt that Hindemith was a influence. I mean RVW wasn't exactly smitten with the Germans the best to my memory. I seem to recall he had some negative things to say about Mahler.

"A tolerable imitation of a composer," if I recall correctly.

He also said, about Schoenberg, "He didn't mean anything to me, but he seemed to mean a lot to others," or something.

I don't hold those things against him either, though.  Here is my ranking of the symphonies, in line with everyone else here...

3, 5, 6, 8, 4, 9, 2, 7, 1

I haven't heard the original version of the London Symphony, though, so that work's position could improve with familiarity.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2017, 06:13:24 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 23, 2017, 06:08:43 AM
"A tolerable imitation of a composer," if I recall correctly.

He also said, about Schoenberg, "He didn't mean anything to me, but he seemed to mean a lot to others," or something.

I don't hold those things against him either, though.  Here is my ranking of the symphonies, in line with everyone else here...

3, 5, 6, 8, 4, 9, 2, 7, 1

I haven't heard the original version of the London Symphony, though, so that work's position could improve with familiarity.

Thanks, Mahlerian. Nice ranking! Looks similar to my own.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 04, 2017, 03:54:09 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 04, 2017, 03:52:47 PM
I know I said I wasn't going to buy this but the teaser trailer on YouTube had me grinning from ear-to-ear:

(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571281902.png)

It's all Jeffrey's fault! There! I'll just blame him. It's much easier that way. :P ;D

Let me say I think the people who believe this notion of Vaughan Williams as this folk-collecting, whimsical elf who danced about in the English countryside would do well to actually listen to his music, especially a work like the Sancta Civitas or the Partita for Double String Orchestra (just to throw out some seldom mentioned examples). Nothing rosy about this music at all.

The teaser from Hyperion:

https://www.youtube.com/v/RSds6-zrpxM
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 04, 2017, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 04, 2017, 03:54:09 PM
Let me say I think the people who believe this notion of Vaughan Williams as this folk-collecting, whimsical elf who danced about in the English countryside would do well to actually listen to his music, especially a work like the Sancta Civitas or the Partita for Double String Orchestra (just to throw out some seldom mentioned examples). Nothing rosy about this music at all.

Hear hear! Or what about listerning to symphonies 6, 7, 8, 9? Or even 4?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 05, 2017, 12:44:30 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 04, 2017, 03:54:09 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

It's all Jeffrey's fault! There! I'll just blame him. It's much easier that way. :P ;D

Let me say I think the people who believe this notion of Vaughan Williams as this folk-collecting, whimsical elf who danced about in the English countryside would do well to actually listen to his music, especially a work like the Sancta Civitas or the Partita for Double String Orchestra (just to throw out some seldom mentioned examples). Nothing rosy about this music at all.

The teaser from Hyperion:

https://www.youtube.com/v/RSds6-zrpxM

Haha  :) ('Jeffrey's fault' - I'm quite used to hearing that view expressed at home  8))

Just read a very good review of Thomson's recording of VW's 8th Symphony, stating, in a comparative survey, that it was the best version available - must give it another listen to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2017, 05:27:28 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 04, 2017, 10:06:16 PM
Hear hear! Or what about listerning to symphonies 6, 7, 8, 9? Or even 4?

Those would certainly dismantle the 'teddy bear' imagery. :)

Quote from: vandermolen on December 05, 2017, 12:44:30 AM
Haha  :) ('Jeffrey's fault' - I'm quite used to hearing that view expressed at home  8))

Just read a very good review of Thomson's recording of VW's 8th Symphony, stating, in a comparative survey, that it was the best version available - must give it another listen to.

:P

Thomson's cycle, in general, is very good and it used to be my go-to cycle until I heard the Previn in remastered audio and then Thomson sounded quite tame by comparison. Thomson is an excellent conductor of course, but Previn's got more fire in his bite.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on December 05, 2017, 07:21:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2017, 05:27:28 AM
Those would certainly dismantle the 'teddy bear' imagery. :)

:P

Thomson's cycle, in general, is very good and it used to be my go-to cycle until I heard the Previn in remastered audio and then Thomson sounded quite tame by comparison. Thomson is an excellent conductor of course, but Previn's got more fire in his bite.

You should hear my remastering of Previn's No. 9.  It's intense!  I think his tempi are the best of this work allowing the long last movement to have a slow burn with a cumulative wallop at those ending E major chords.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2017, 07:31:13 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 05, 2017, 07:21:28 AM
You should hear my remastering of Previn's No. 9.  It's intense!  I think his tempi are the best of this work allowing the long last movement to have a slow burn with a cumulative wallop at those ending E major chords.

Your remastering? You have access to the original source tapes? Yep, Previn's whole cycle is one of my favorites (along with Boult's EMI cycle).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 06, 2017, 06:09:55 AM
Even thought it's a miniature, which usually are viewed as unsubstantial, I absolutely adore the Two Hymn-Tune Preludes. Does anyone else know this beautiful little gem?

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 06, 2017, 06:11:09 AM
I hear them all the time  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 06, 2017, 06:16:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 06, 2017, 06:11:09 AM
I hear them all the time  8)

According to the list of RVW's oeuvre on the RVW Society's website, this is the information we have about it:

1936
Two Hymn-Tune Preludes
For small orchestra.
Based on 'Eventide' (W. H. Monk) and 'Dominus regit me' (J. B. Dykes)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on December 06, 2017, 06:45:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2017, 07:31:13 AM
Your remastering? You have access to the original source tapes? Yep, Previn's whole cycle is one of my favorites (along with Boult's EMI cycle).
No, I am using the CD which is the highest resolution I have available but it can be improved upon through EQ (some ambient hiss removal plus punchier, tighter bass, slight reduction in mid levels), brightness, balance, stereo separation, etc. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 06, 2017, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 06, 2017, 06:16:35 AM
According to the list of RVW's oeuvre on the RVW Society's website, this is the information we have about it:

1936
Two Hymn-Tune Preludes
For small orchestra.
Based on 'Eventide' (W. H. Monk) and 'Dominus regit me' (J. B. Dykes)

Ah, those I have not heard at all.  What I thought you meant were the Three Preludes on Welsh Hymn Tunes, e.g.:

http://www.youtube.com/v/auJz2LmD-9k
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 06, 2017, 06:49:14 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 06, 2017, 06:45:40 AM
Ah, those I have not heard at all.  What I thought you meant were the Three Preludes on Welsh Hymn Tunes, e.g.:

http://www.youtube.com/v/auJz2LmD-9k

Ah, okay. Well, that's a great piece, too! 8)

Here's Two Hymn-Tune Preludes:

https://www.youtube.com/v/iEEv-icGdKk

https://www.youtube.com/v/b6leFCOxSdc
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 06, 2017, 06:56:59 AM
The Welsh Hymn Tune Preludes have been a staple of parish organists forever, and justly so.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 06, 2017, 06:59:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 06, 2017, 06:56:59 AM
The Welsh Hymn Tune Preludes have been a staple of parish organists forever, and justly so.

I'm sure I've heard it played by an organist before, especially during my youth as I would attend church every Sunday. Of course, back then, I had no clue as who Vaughan Williams was.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 06, 2017, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 06, 2017, 06:59:05 AM
I'm sure I've heard it played by an organist before, especially during my youth as I would attend church every Sunday. Of course, back then, I had no clue as who Vaughan Williams was.
I had 'Rhosymedre' (the second of the Welsh Hymn Tune Preludes) played on the organ when I got married. I had to have some VW performed.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 06, 2017, 02:25:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 06, 2017, 01:56:16 PMI had 'Rhosymedre' (the second of the Welsh Hymn Tune Preludes) played on the organ when I got married. I had to have some VW performed.  :)
Exactly the same here: Rhosymedre, at the Garrels/Meere organ of the St. Jacob's Church ("Jacobi') in Utrecht, when I got married, in 2003. (I think we shared this wonderful coincidence before?)  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 06, 2017, 04:42:22 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 06, 2017, 01:56:16 PM
I had 'Rhosymedre' (the second of the Welsh Hymn Tune Preludes) played on the organ when I got married. I had to have some VW performed.  :)

Quote from: Christo on December 06, 2017, 02:25:26 PM
Exactly the same here: Rhosymedre, at the Garrels/Meere organ of the St. Jacob's Church ("Jacobi') in Utrecht, when I got married, in 2003. (I think we shared this wonderful coincidence before?)  ;D

Great to hear, guys. Welsh Hymn-Tune Preludes is a beautiful work. I take it both of you guys know Two Hymn-Tune Preludes, though?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 07, 2017, 05:42:54 AM
In addition to the Two Hymn Tune Preludes (for small orchestra) on the Hickox album above, RVW also wrote Two Organ Preludes founded on Welsh Folk Songs - No 1 Toccata 'St David's Day and No 2 Romanza 'The White Rock' - I assume these are what Mirror Image is referring to.

They are available on the RVW Society disc 'Bursts of Acclamation' - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bursts-Acclamation-Complete-Vaughan-Williams/dp/B00WUFBROG/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1512657733&sr=1-1&keywords=vaughan+williams+bursts+of+acclamation
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 07, 2017, 05:55:18 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 07, 2017, 05:42:54 AM
In addition to the Two Hymn Tune Preludes (for small orchestra) on the Hickox album above, RVW also wrote Two Organ Preludes founded on Welsh Folk Songs - No 1 Toccata 'St David's Day and No 2 Romanza 'The White Rock' - I assume these are what Mirror Image is referring to.

They are available on the RVW Society disc 'Bursts of Acclamation' - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bursts-Acclamation-Complete-Vaughan-Williams/dp/B00WUFBROG/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1512657733&sr=1-1&keywords=vaughan+williams+bursts+of+acclamation

I believe it was our Karl who was misremembering what the work was?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 06, 2017, 06:45:40 AM
Ah, those I have not heard at all.  What I thought you meant were the Three Preludes on Welsh Hymn Tunes, e.g.:

http://www.youtube.com/v/auJz2LmD-9k

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 06, 2017, 06:56:59 AM
The Welsh Hymn Tune Preludes have been a staple of parish organists forever, and justly so.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 07, 2017, 06:49:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 07, 2017, 05:55:18 AM
I believe it was our Karl who was misremembering what the work was?

Yes, but you wrote ' I take it both of you guys know Two Hymn-Tune Preludes, though?' - that is what I was referring to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 07, 2017, 07:52:58 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 07, 2017, 06:49:37 AM
Yes, but you wrote ' I take it both of you guys know Two Hymn-Tune Preludes, though?' - that is what I was referring to.

Yes, but that was in reference to my initial post about the Two Hymn-Tune Preludes, which is a work for orchestra. :)

Hence:

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 06, 2017, 06:09:55 AM
Even thought it's a miniature, which usually are viewed as unsubstantial, I absolutely adore the Two Hymn-Tune Preludes. Does anyone else know this beautiful little gem?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 07, 2017, 10:16:23 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 06, 2017, 02:25:26 PM
Exactly the same here: Rhosymedre, at the Garrels/Meere organ of the St. Jacob's Church ("Jacobi') in Utrecht, when I got married, in 2003. (I think we shared this wonderful coincidence before?)  ;D

We did indeed but I'd forgotten - nice to be reminded of this happy coincidence.
In my case the organ was played at Christ Church, Ottershaw (see below) which, that day, had a 50% Jewish congregation.
(//)

St Jacobs Church, Ghent is much grander and very impressive.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 07, 2017, 12:35:58 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 07, 2017, 10:16:23 AMSt Jacobs Church, Ghent is much grander and very impressive.
It was the St Jacob's Church ('Jacobi') in my hometown, Utrecht, not Ghent; actually my own church - and filled with the indescrible collection of people that happen to know us. :-) The 18th century organ is very fine and in the hands of an artist:
(http://www.huureenkerk.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/jacobikerk-uitvaart-kerk-40.jpg)(https://www.rd.nl/image/policy:1.650146:1467467087/debatjacobikerk.jpg?f=16x9&$p$f=6986679)
And now back to Vaughan Williams - who would've preferred yours, in Ottershaw, I guess.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 07, 2017, 12:44:44 PM
Quote from: Christo on December 07, 2017, 12:35:58 PM
It was the St Jacob's Church ('Jacobi') in my hometown, Utrecht, not Ghent; actually my own church - and filled with the indescrible collection of people that happen to know us. :-) The 18th century organ is very fine and in the hands of an artist:
(http://www.huureenkerk.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/jacobikerk-uitvaart-kerk-40.jpg)(https://www.rd.nl/image/policy:1.650146:1467467087/debatjacobikerk.jpg?f=16x9&$p$f=6986679)
And now back to Vaughan Williams - who would've preferred yours, in Ottershaw, I guess.  :D

Very nice church I must say. I went to a concert including Sancta Civitas some years ago in the church where VW and Adeline got married in Hove East Sussex.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 09, 2017, 07:07:00 AM
Has anyone heard the new Elder recording of Symphonies Nos. 4 & 6? I bought this disc upon release, but haven't listened to it yet.

(http://www.classicalsource.com/images/upload/14841_1.jpg)

It's received some good press, although Hurwitz didn't think much of it. The MusicWeb review seemed to have though highly of it:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Sep/VW_sys_CDHLL7547.htm

Overall, for me, Elder's RVW traversal has been a mixed bag. His performances of Symphony No. 5 and A London Symphony haven't impressed me much whereas A Pastoral Symphony, A Sea Symphony, and Symphony No. 8 received good (Symphony No. 8) to superb (A Pastoral Symphony) performances. I suppose I'll dig into this new recording at some point this weekend.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 10, 2017, 12:59:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 09, 2017, 07:07:00 AM
Has anyone heard the new Elder recording of Symphonies Nos. 4 & 6? I bought this disc upon release, but haven't listened to it yet.

(http://www.classicalsource.com/images/upload/14841_1.jpg)

It's received some good press, although Hurwitz didn't think much of it. The MusicWeb review seemed to have though highly of it:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Sep/VW_sys_CDHLL7547.htm

Overall, for me, Elder's RVW traversal has been a mixed bag. His performances of Symphony No. 5 and A London Symphony haven't impressed me much whereas A Pastoral Symphony, A Sea Symphony, and Symphony No. 8 received good (Symphony No. 8) to superb (A Pastoral Symphony) performances. I suppose I'll dig into this new recording at some point this weekend.

I found No 4 a disappointment - not incisive enough, No 6 fared better but not a first choice. I have enjoyed all the other issues in this series so far with the Sea Symphony and No 8 being the highlights.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 10, 2017, 01:54:26 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 10, 2017, 12:59:41 AM
I found No 4 a disappointment - not incisive enough, No 6 fared better but not a first choice. I have enjoyed all the other issues in this series so far with the Sea Symphony and No 8 being the highlights.

I largely agree with Biffo although No.3 is my favourite in this series do far.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 06:07:17 AM
Thanks guys, I listened to both of Elder's performances of these symphonies last night and found both of the performances disappointing. They need more fire, Maestro Elder! They are war symphonies after all. Maybe not 'war' explicitly, but there's a turbulence in each of these works that does make me think that war was on RVW's mind when he was composing these symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on December 10, 2017, 06:24:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 06:07:17 AM
Thanks guys, I listened to both of Elder's performances of these symphonies last night and found both of the performances disappointing. They need more fire, Maestro Elder! They are war symphonies after all. Maybe not 'war' explicitly, but there's a turbulence in each of these works that does make me think that war was on RVW's mind when he was composing these symphonies.

Which would you say is the best recording/performance of both these works?  One's with fire in droves?  I always thought the Adrian Boult/London Philharmonic recordings of these two were white hot.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2017, 07:00:48 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 10, 2017, 06:24:51 AM
Which would you say is the best recording/performance of both these works?  One's with fire in droves?  I always thought the Adrian Boult/London Philharmonic recordings of these two were white hot.

I agree with you: Boult, especially the Decca performances. Add Bernstein in the Fourth.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 10, 2017, 07:15:54 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 10, 2017, 06:24:51 AM
Which would you say is the best recording/performance of both these works?  One's with fire in droves?  I always thought the Adrian Boult/London Philharmonic recordings of these two were white hot.

Without a doubt Boult's LPO/Decca recording of Symphony 6.
Thomson is good too.

For No.4 I'd say Berglund (whose Sibelian No.6 is IMHO one of the few successful recordings of that turbulent score) although Bernstein and Mitropolous are very good as well. Boult's LPO version is a bit handicapped by the recording but if you like Boult's objective approach with VW I'd opt for his later EMI/Warner recording which is terrific. Many people rate VW himself as best of all in Symphony 4 but I prefer his recording of Symphony 5.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 10, 2017, 07:58:31 AM
For me the composer's own recording is by far the best, surpassing all others in in drama and intensity; for a modern recording I go for Previn, my long standing favourite. For No 6 it has to be another vintage recording, Boult and the LSO in 1949 (Dutton); for a modern recording I am not sure though Boult's recording with the New Philharmonia was my standby for many years. After I bought the latter, someone 'in the know' told me I should have gone for Previn for the 'fireworks'. Previn's is a fine recording though I didn't hear it until it came out in the complete cycle box on CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 08:03:15 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 10, 2017, 06:24:51 AM
Which would you say is the best recording/performance of both these works?  One's with fire in droves?  I always thought the Adrian Boult/London Philharmonic recordings of these two were white hot.

Boult on EMI and Previn for both symphonies. Outside of these two conductors: Bernstein is a favorite in the 4th along with Berglund's 4th (in addition to his 6th). Jeffrey and I have very similar tastes when it comes one of our favorite composers and our preferred performances. I have never warmed up to Haitink, Handley, Slatkin, Bakels/Daniel, or Davis as far as the complete cycles go. Thomson's cycle has fallen a bit out of favor with me, although his performances are very good (some performances more so than others).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 10, 2017, 08:15:17 AM
Like other people here, I also like Berglund and Bernstein for #4. But this symphony has been lucky on record, I've never heard a performance I would consider bad.

I have a harder time with #6. I like Handley/RLPO and Boult/Philh. the most. I didn't like the much-praised A. Davis (too subdued). Previn is merely OK (I don't hear any "fireworks" in it, certainly not more than other recordings), and is handicapped by rather flat sonics. You need really good sound for this one - I heard the old Stokowski/NYPO version and was frustrated by it, because the intense performance was compromised by the poor sound.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 10, 2017, 08:36:31 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 10, 2017, 08:15:17 AM
Like other people here, I also like Berglund and Bernstein for #4. But this symphony has been lucky on record, I've never heard a performance I would consider bad.

I have a harder time with #6. I like Handley/RLPO and Boult/Philh. the most. I didn't like the much-praised A. Davis (too subdued). Previn is merely OK (I don't hear any "fireworks" in it, certainly not more than other recordings), and is handicapped by rather flat sonics. You need really good sound for this one - I heard the old Stokowski/NYPO version and was frustrated by it, because the intense performance was compromised by the poor sound.

In my view there are very few entirely successful performances of Symphony 6 on CD. Abravanel's Utah SO recording is a bit of a 'sleeper' and underestimated I think . No mention of Barbirolli yet but his Bavarian SO version is worth considering.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 08:42:07 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 10, 2017, 08:15:17 AM
Like other people here, I also like Berglund and Bernstein for #4. But this symphony has been lucky on record, I've never heard a performance I would consider bad.

I have a harder time with #6. I like Handley/RLPO and Boult/Philh. the most. I didn't like the much-praised A. Davis (too subdued). Previn is merely OK (I don't hear any "fireworks" in it, certainly not more than other recordings), and is handicapped by rather flat sonics. You need really good sound for this one - I heard the old Stokowski/NYPO version and was frustrated by it, because the intense performance was compromised by the poor sound.

The more recent RCA remastering of the Previn set clears up a lot of the audio issues of the original releases. The 6th is a difficult work to find a good performance of that does it justice. Previn, Berglund, and Boult (EMI) are my preferences here. I know the Handley performance you mention, but have never really connected to his RVW symphony cycle. I find his cycle to be recorded rather well, but there's something missing in his interpretations. It may be his level of enthusiasm or the rather staid manner in which he performs these works but I have a difficult time appreciating his approach. It took some time for me to finally figure out what exactly I prefer in these symphonies and this is after living with them for eight years, but I believe I finally found what it is I admire and what I don't enjoy in performances of these works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2017, 08:45:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 10, 2017, 07:15:54 AM
For No.4 I'd say Berglund...

A terrific performance certainly, and meets relm1's criterion ("fire in droves") but I personally prefer a slower, more galumphing pace in the beginning of the Finale (love Rozhdestvensky here, and Boult).

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 08:47:09 AM
I should really get that Rozhdestvensky cycle of RVW! I keep forgetting it. Russian forces performing Vaughan Williams just seems odd to me, but I heard good things about it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2017, 08:58:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 08:03:15 AM
I have never warmed up to Haitink, Handley, Slatkin, Bakels/Daniel, or Davis as far as the complete cycles go. Thomson's cycle has fallen a bit out of favor with me, although his performances are very good (some performances more so than others).

Haitink and the two Boult cycles are my favorites but the other cycles you mention have some great performances too (imo):

Handley 3 8
Slatkin 1 4
Bakels 9
Davis 6
Thomson 2 8 9

Since getting the remastered Previn box, my admiration for his cycle has increased. Love especially 2, 3, 5 and 7.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 09:05:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2017, 08:58:39 AM
Haitink and the two Boult cycles are my favorites but the other cycles you mention have some great performances too (imo):

Handley 3 8
Slatkin 1 4
Bakels 9
Davis 6
Thomson 2 8 9

Since getting the remastered Previn box, my admiration for his cycle has increased. Love especially 2, 3, 5 and 7.

Sarge

Interesting, Sarge. How would you rate Slatkin's cycle in general? I bought the remastered budget set last night (in a post I deleted for some reason ???). I know you and I battled back and forth on the audio quality of this set before, but I do believe the remastered set sounds better (or at least judging from the 15-minute audio sample of the 5th I heard on Naxos Music Library I heard last night).

Also, I rate Thomson's 8th very highly as does Jeffrey (Vandermolen). There's another performance of the 8th that I was impressed by fairly recently and it came from a Russian:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51FXpIDSYqL.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 10, 2017, 09:28:33 AM
Handley's performances are solid but none of them would be a first choice. His harps at the end of No.9 are impressive. I prefer his earlier LPO recording of A London Symphony to the Liverpool version. Slatkin's set has its strengths - No.9 in particular but nos 5 and 6 are disappointing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2017, 10:16:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 09:05:35 AM
Interesting, Sarge. How would you rate Slatkin's cycle in general?

I'm not sure I can answer that. I suppose he belongs in the middle of my rankings of the nine cycles I own, with the Boults and Haitink at the top, Davis at the bottom, and Rozh occupying his own space in the ratings game. I would probably rate Slatkin with Handley and Thomson but below Previn. But those four keep shifting as I listen to them. I do hope your new Slatkin buy meets your sonic expectations. There really are some fine performances.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2017, 10:18:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 10, 2017, 09:28:33 AM
Handley's performances are solid but none of them would be a first choice.

I agree with that but he is picking up steam in my estimation. In other words. I can appreciate him more today than before. A recent listen to his 8 quite impressed me.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 10, 2017, 10:38:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2017, 10:18:05 AM
I agree with that but he is picking up steam in my estimation. In other words. I can appreciate him more today than before. A recent listen to his 8 quite impressed me.

Sarge

I don't think that anyone who invested in Handley's boxed set of the VW symphonies should be disappointed - they are all good performances and more consistently so than some other cycles (Slatkin and Davis for example). Many rate his No.5 as best of all and 6 and 9 are a great disc together. A Sea Symphony is very strong as well but I prefer his earlier LPO version of A London Symphony (1936) - the RLPO No.6 though is far superior to the old boxed-in LPO version although I like the 'Prelude and Fugue' fill-up better than the more recent versions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 10, 2017, 10:41:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 10, 2017, 08:36:31 AM
In my view there are very few entirely successful performances of Symphony 6 on CD. considering.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 08:42:07 AM
. The 6th is a difficult work to find a good performance of that does it justice.

It's a hard symphony to get right. Recordings tend to fail because of 3 reasons:

1) not enough power and fury in the 1st mvt.
2) inability to achieve the right mixture of spooky post-apocalyptic mood and symphonic forward motion for the finale to work
3) inadequate sonics

I think both Handley and Boult do well on these factors, overall. I may try to pick up Abravanel and Berglund at some point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 10, 2017, 11:06:27 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 10, 2017, 10:41:48 AM
It's a hard symphony to get right. Recordings tend to fail because of 3 reasons:

1) not enough power and fury in the 1st mvt.
2) inability to achieve the right mixture of spooky post-apocalyptic mood and symphonic forward motion for the finale to work
3) inadequate sonics

I think both Handley and Boult do well on these factors, overall. I may try to pick up Abravanel and Berglund at some point.

Also, the 'big tune' at the end of the first movement if often played too emotionally in my view. Boult's objective approach works brilliantly here. The finale is often too loud or too fast (Boult, LPO and Abravanel are exceptions). Boult's LPO recording has the added bonus of the composer's appreciative speech.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 10, 2017, 11:39:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 10, 2017, 11:06:27 AM
The finale is often too loud or too fast (Boult, LPO and Abravanel are exceptions).

The finale presents an interesting problem of interpretation. There are other symphonies that end soft & slow (Tchai 5, Mahler 9). But in those cases there is a lot of raw emotion and obvious drama, which balances the rest of the symphony. The moonscape VW composed is completely different in nature, unsettling precisely because of its lack of raw emotion. How can this movement be an effective balance to the other movements without sounding like a drawn-out afterthought?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 01:53:41 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2017, 10:16:21 AM
I'm not sure I can answer that. I suppose he belongs in the middle of my rankings of the nine cycles I own, with the Boults and Haitink at the top, Davis at the bottom, and Rozh occupying his own space in the ratings game. I would probably rate Slatkin with Handley and Thomson but below Previn. But those four keep shifting as I listen to them. I do hope your new Slatkin buy meets your sonic expectations. There really are some fine performances.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. Looking forward to hearing the updated sonics of the Slatkin. A word on the Slatkin, I revisited his Five Variants on 'Dives and Lazarus' and found it to be not my cup of tea. He rushes through the work like Bernstein driving a Mahler scherzo. ;) A beautiful work that IMHO needs to be ravishing and performed at slower tempo. I hope his tempi are more lax when they need to be in the symphonies!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 01:58:28 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 10, 2017, 10:41:48 AM
It's a hard symphony to get right. Recordings tend to fail because of 3 reasons:

1) not enough power and fury in the 1st mvt.
2) inability to achieve the right mixture of spooky post-apocalyptic mood and symphonic forward motion for the finale to work
3) inadequate sonics

I think both Handley and Boult do well on these factors, overall. I may try to pick up Abravanel and Berglund at some point.

I agree with those fine points you made here about the 6th. Abravanel is awesome in this symphony! There's also a great performance of Dona nobis pacem on that recording. I'm sure it can had for a good price in the used market.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 10, 2017, 03:47:19 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2017, 08:58:39 AM

Slatkin 1 4

I just listened to Slatkin's 3/4 disc (the only one from his cycle I have) and was impressed with both performances. Certainly the 4th is very tightly wound and "in-yer-face" as this piece should be, with great orchestral playing and very present, natural sound.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 03:48:39 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 10, 2017, 03:47:19 PM
I just listened to Slatkin's 3/4 disc (the only one from his cycle I have) and was impressed with both performances. Certainly the 4th is very tightly wound and "in-yer-face" as this piece should be, with great orchestral playing and very present, natural sound.

How was A Pastoral Symphony?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 10, 2017, 03:52:28 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 03:48:39 PM
How was A Pastoral Symphony?

I liked it too. But I've only heard a couple of other performances, so it's hard to compare.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2017, 03:53:10 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 10, 2017, 03:52:28 PM
I liked it too. But I've only heard a couple of other performances, so it's hard to compare.

Ah okay. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on December 10, 2017, 05:05:59 PM
It is interesting to me that reading this whole thread, my initial opinion still holds strong...that the best complete cycles of RVW symphonies in terms of performance, interpretation, and sonics are Andre Previn/LSO and Sir Adrian Boult/LPO/NPO.  On a symphony by symphony basis these might be eclipsed (my favorite No. 1 is Haitink/LPO/EMI) but the rest of Haitink's cycle is hit or miss for example.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 10, 2017, 09:58:16 PM
Quote from: relm1 on December 10, 2017, 05:05:59 PM
It is interesting to me that reading this whole thread, my initial opinion still holds strong...that the best complete cycles of RVW symphonies in terms of performance, interpretation, and sonics are Andre Previn/LSO and Sir Adrian Boult/LPO/NPO.  On a symphony by symphony basis these might be eclipsed (my favorite No. 1 is Haitink/LPO/EMI) but the rest of Haitink's cycle is hit or miss for example.
Agreed, with the addition that for me Bryden Thomson, responsible for a number of first choices (e.g. in 6, 8, 9), completes the trinity.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2017, 12:56:31 PM
Coming in January:

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH10969.jpg)

https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%2010969
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2017, 06:21:59 PM
Symphony No. 5 in D major

(https://www.dorkingmuseum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/K977-copy.jpg)

(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/the-shadowy-stream-samuel-palmer.jpg)

During the late 1930s and early 1940s, Vaughan Williams was occupied with a wide variety of musical projects. His earliest film scores date from this time, such as those for The 49th Parallel (1940) and Coastal Command (1942). He also contributed to the war effort with works like the Five Wartime Hymns (1942) and the pageant England's Pleasant Land (1938); the latter work incorporates early sketches for the Symphony No. 5. There was also the ongoing labor on the opera/morality play The Pilgrim's Progress. Some incidental commissions also came his way, like the Serenade to Music written for Sir Henry Wood's golden jubilee as a conductor (1938).

And there was the Symphony No. 5, largely written over the years 1938 to 1943. Vaughan Williams himself conducted the London Philharmonic in the work's first performance at a Royal Albert Hall Promenade concert on June 24, 1943. A decade separates this symphony and its predecessor, and a work more unlike the violent and tumultuous Symphony No. 4 would be hard to imagine. Vaughan Williams scholar Michael Kennedy has called the Fifth the "symphony of the celestial city," which perhaps gives some indication of the work's radiance and lyricism.

The Symphony No. 5 was dedicated to Jean Sibelius, and the latter's own Symphony No. 5 is evoked in the serene and mysterious opening Preludio. French horns sound out in D major over a low C in the strings, an ambiguity that is partly resolved when a radiant E major emerges in the strings. There are some darker moments during the more animated development section, but the opening horn calls return, and the main melody is heroically sounded out with brass and tympani. The epilogue is more ambivalent, wandering sadly toward a haunting and uncertain ending. The second movement, Scherzo, is a sardonic little dance that emerges out of swirling strings. Blasts from the brass section occasionally interrupt the tune. As turbulent as the music gets, the scoring is light and nimble throughout. The music relaxes toward the end of the movement, perhaps in anticipation of what is to follow.

The Symphony No. 5 derives some of its thematic content from the opera The Pilgrim's Progress, but only in the third movement "Romanza" is the connection between opera and symphony dramatically apparent. In the manuscript score, Vaughan Williams included a brief quotation from Bunyan's work: "Upon this place stood a cross, and a little below a sepulchre. Then he said: 'He hath given me rest by his sorrow, and life by his death.'" The movement begins mysteriously, as a stately chorale-like theme is presented. Woodwinds, particularly English horn and oboe, introduce a new theme (taken from Act One, Scene Two of the opera). The music becomes temporarily blustery, but the chorale theme returns and builds to a noble climax. A solo violin leads into the hushed and poignant coda. Like the Brahms Symphony No. 4, the Vaughan Williams Fifth ends with a Passacaglia; the stately theme is heard in the low strings at first, and is developed by the rest of the orchestra. Variations on the passacaglia theme range from the playful to the jubilant to the restive. A big, brass-laden climax leads to a return of the symphony's opening French horn call, this time in a more assertive guise. The strings reflect on motifs from the first movement, with the passacaglia theme lurking nearby, and fade into a very peaceful and beautiful ending to what some have called Vaughan Williams' greatest symphony.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

An Analysis from classical.net -

Introduction

This symphony consists largely of fragments from Vaughan Williams' then-unfinished opera, The Pilgrim's Progress. In his late 60s and early 70s when he began the Fifth, Vaughan Williams was to some extent impelled by the possibility that he might not finish the opera and hated to waste good ideas. I'll try to point out the symphony's musical connections to the opera (I'll undoubtedly miss some), where it seems relevant. In general, however, the symphony's musical themes bear only a very abstract relation to the opera. One can't say that the symphony has a specific program, although Vaughan Williams once affixed a quote (later removed) from Bunyan himself to the opening of the slow third movement.

The symphony is in the "usual" four movements: a "Preludio" first movement; Scherzo; a "Romanza" slow movement; a "Passacaglia" finale. These correspond (sort of) to a sonata-allegro first movement, scherzo, song-form slow movement, and rondo finale of the classical symphony. We will of course find differences which provide insight into some of Vaughan Williams' symphonic methods.

Note : To provide further help, I will give timings indicating where the large pieces begin. I use the Boult recording on EMI.

First Movement: Preludio
I think we can instructively compare the structure of the first movement of this symphony to the sonata-allegro of a classical symphony.

Classical :

Statement (exposition) of the first subject group
Exposition of the second subject group
Development
Recapitulation and optional coda
VW follows this model as closely as he ever did:

Exposition of the first subject group
Exposition of the second subject group
Shortened development of one theme from 1st group and one sort of from the 2nd
Recap of the first subject group
Extended recap of the second subject group
Coda
Most of the departures come from the fact that you distinguish the parts of a sonata-allegro through key changes. The problem is that modern music changes key (or "modulates") far more often than the classical model. How then does one perceive the structural parts?

VW, from the opening measures, puts key and structure into doubt. Long stretches of this symphony are simultaneously in two keys – C and D. The bass line is in C, the opening horn call in D. (He wrote in more than one key in other works as well; see "Flos Campi," from the 20s). Is the bass a dissonance to the horns (a flatted 7th, for you afficionados) or the horns to the bass (an augmented 4th, or "tritone")? For a considerable time, Vaughan Williams himself could not decide the movement's key (he settled for D). Indeed, an examination of the score reveals lots more dissonances than the average 18th- or 19th-century symphony, something that you'd probably expect anyway. Yet the movement, for the most part, sounds serene, with a sinister undertone that barely breaks the surface. Much of this softening comes from Vaughan Williams' orchestration: he tends to work in distinct "planes" of sound. In the opening measures, for example, the low cellos and basses are separated from the higher horns in range and sound color.

The opening is magic. It's as if the symphony doesn't begin: we merely happen upon a continual song. Contrast this with the definite start of Beethoven's "Eroica." From the very beginning, the outlines of Vaughan Williams' forms are hazier.

Even more important to the sound of the movement is Vaughan Williams' fondness for modal, mainly pentatonic (the black notes of the piano played as a scale) themes. I could go into technical reasons why such devices weaken the sense of tonality (for a good discussion of this, see Charles Rosen's introduction to The Classical Style), but I'd prefer to concentrate on what you hear. For now, just accept it as a fact, or read Rosen.

Given the weak tonality, how does Vaughan Williams make the movement cohere? One answer is through motific and rhythmic contrast. A roadmap to the movement follows:

Exposition of the first subject group (0:00):

a. A horn call with a distinctive dotted rhythm, associated in the opera with the Celestial City
b. A rising answer on the high strings
c. A cadential figure beginning and ending on C in the cellos and basses (0:19)
d. Slightly later (0:41), a descending theme on the violins.
All these themes are combined, often in canon. The rhythm of the horn call hardly ever leaves the texture. In fact, this symphony shows great contrapuntal resource throughout, although not as flashy as in the 4th Symphony. The exposition is repeated and varied (1:12). In the course of this section Vaughan Williams modulates to some rather distant keys, and yet the harmonies feel almost stable. This I believe due to the isolation of the texture into separate planes of sound, mentioned earlier.

The horn call leads to a radiant E Major and the second subject group (3.19):

e. A chorale theme (VW's hymn tune "Sine Nomine" disguised), from the "House Beautiful" scene (accompanying the Interpreter's "An open door shall be set before thee and no man may shut it")
f. A subordinate "Dresden Amen" (C D F E D C) figure
g. A descending minor 3rd (Eb Db C), associated with the words "Beelzebub" in the opera. It appears at the very end of the second exposition.
This is a more, song-like section, with a stronger sense of closure. Toward the end, the music darkens with a slightly sinister version of the horn call (a) (4:34) in the bassoons. This leads to the "Beelzebub" 3rd (g) (4:50).

Motive (c) leads to an extended quick section (5:10) based on (c), (g), and a moto perpetuo scurrying in the strings (sinister mice) based on (d). This section, fairly short, takes the place of the classical development.

Around 7:05, it winds down to the horn call and the first subject group for a last extended go-round leading to a glorious outburst of the "Sine Nomine" and "Dresden Amen" (8:13). Vaughan Williams plays with the second group longer than at first, and the section winds down with (d) (9:22). The "Beelzebub" theme starts (9:45), but gets cut to a semitone, thus showing an unexpected relationship with the horn call – its dark reflection.

At 10:21, the horn call returns, and we are into the coda, which works mainly with (a) and (d), until the movement fades into the distance. It hasn't ended so much as simply left us behind.

Second Movement - Scherzo

Music history books will tell you that the Beethoven scherzo took over from the minuet and trio movement of the classical symphony. This is true enough, but not really the whole story. At any rate, both the scherzo and the minuet work by playing off two main sets of ideas. In addition, Haydn works a variation by having a minuet withtwo trios. So now you know that a trio is a section that contrasts to the minuet or scherzo. Why is it called a trio? Originally, the contrasting section was written in three parts, fewer than the minuet or scherzo itself, frequently (in Lully, for example) for two oboes and bassoon. You can find a really good, well-known example of this in the last movement of the Bach first Brandenburg concerto. Anyway, the section usually supplied a lighter contrast, but by the modern period this was simply generalized to "the contrasting section." It didn't have to be more lightly scored. Certainly, this is not the case with Vaughan Williams' movement. In fact, the climax of the movement occurs in a trio.

The classical composer laid out the scherzo with 2 trios in the following way :

a. Scherzo (usually in triple time, by the way)
b. Trio 1 (sometimes in duple time)
c. Scherzo
d. Trio 2
e. Scherzo
This is known schematically as A B A C (or B') A. Vaughan Williams elides this to A B A (truncated) C B'.

Again, the movement seems to start from nowhere out of rising 4ths. These lead to a rollicking theme (0:20), which tends to insist on a minor 3rd and which you actually get slightly earlier in a subordinate part (0:14). The passage dissolves into the rising 4ths again (0:40), treated imitatively. At 0:50, Vaughan Williams repeats the section.

At 1:01, you'll hear what might be described as a woodwind raspberry or, more politely, as bagpipe skirls. These will serve in the movement much like the rising 4ths as heralds of a new section. In this case, however, the skirls give way to the rising 4ths (1:48) which announce the first trio.

Out of a transitional minor-3rd theme comes a chordal, chorale-like motive (1:57). Vaughan Williams elaborates on this for a while. The passage dissolves into rising 4ths, again treated imitatively (3:05), which mark the return of the rollicking scherzo (3:23).

The scherzo gets cut short after about 10 seconds, with the intrusion of the bagpipe skirls (3:35), introducing a duple-time second trio, with attempts to re-establish triple time (3:55, 4:07) along the way. Eventually the trio dies to embers, leading to variants of the chorale and the rising 4ths (4:23). Triple time finally gets re-established (4:46) with flickering rising 4ths, but these lead to nothing new, finally ending in a quiet poof.

VW reveals himself in this movement a master orchestrator. In general, he contrasts a transparent, even wispy texture with great forward drive, at rather low volume. The low volume itself challenges players. One doesn't often hear a true pianissimo in live concert, although standards have certainly risen in my lifetime. That the Louisiana Philharmonic a good, but not first-rank orchestra, often does speaks volumes. Strings play largely at the unison or octave, and winds are usually reduced to solos or duets. When the winds get heavy, the strings drop out (more of these contrasting planes of sound). How anyone could think of this as clunky orchestration is beyond me, but one reviewer certainly did. It was "not music demanding great finesse or delicacy of tone" (Daily Telegraph, 1957). What in heaven's name was he listening to?

Third Movement: Romanza

The romanza is a short, lyrical instrumental composition "of an idyllic character," according to the Harvard Dictionary of Music. This movement more than lives up to its billing. Many slow movements are in the form A B A (known as song form): that is, they consist of an opening section, a contrasting middle section, and a return to the opening section again. The sections are seldom equal in length or weight. Berlin's "Puttin' on the Ritz," if you know it, shows this form in little, as does Lennon-McCartney's "Michelle." In the Romanza, Vaughan Williams contrasts an idyllic mood (music from The Pilgrim's Progress Act I, Scene ii, "The House Beautiful") with great agitation (from Act I, Scene i; Pilgrim sings, "Save me, Lord! My burden is greater than I can bear").

The opening section plays with three ideas:

a. A theme given to the cor anglais
b. Rising 4ths, used mainly as transition (see the 2nd movement as well)
c. A broad tune, which has the family look of the Alleluias from "Sine Nomine," although it never actually declares its lineage
A gorgeous chord progression announces a melody in the cor anglais (the opening is, as far as I can tell, note for note from the introduction to the House Beautiful scene). At 0:47, rising 4ths lead to a broad tune in the strings (0:50) which subsides into the flute, oboe, cor anglais, and clarinet playing the rising 4ths once more (1:48). This leads to a repeat of the opening section (2:09). Now the cor anglais theme sounds in the strings (low register of the violins), and we get a bigger statement of the broad tune.

Just as the primarily transitional rising 4ths in the scherzo blossomed into an extended passage, so they do here (3:59), led by the oboe and joined by all the winds in a remarkable passage of "free-for-all" conversation. Of course, it takes a master contrapuntalist to make this bit sound as casual as it does. Vaughan Williams works in much the same idiom in the opening to his "Flos Campi."

At any rate, this leads to the agitated passage in the strings (the B section), against rising 4ths and chromatic runs in the winds. It begins to die down, as the brass, led by the horn (5:43), takes up the cor anglais tune.

Rising 4ths fortissimo in the strings (6:22) lead to a return to the opening music (6:38) and more agitation. At 7:26, the broad tune sings again, this time in extended treatment. Here is the climax to the movement.

At 9:15, the opening chords sound for the last time. The movement begins to wind down. A violin introduces his solo with rising 4ths (9:30). Against shimmering strings (9:55), the cor anglais tune comes back in the horn, and the movement ends (10:12) with fragments of the broad tune.

Forth Movement: Passacaglia

A passacaglia is a musical form which repeats a bass line (usually in triple time) throughout. Against the fixed bass, it varies the upper parts. The last movement of Brahms' Symphony No. 4 in e is a passacaglia, though that work also uses a harmonic progression as a fixed point.

VW's passacaglia resembles more Purcell's "chaconies." It depends less on harmony than does the Brahms. The jargon calls it more "horizontal." In fact, it's not, strictly speaking, a passacaglia at all, although it follows the form in its opening.

The passacaglia theme begins, as usual, in the bass – a descending line. A bit in, a rising counter-melody sneaks in through the upper parts (0:12). It will have tremendous consequences in the movement. This reaches a small climax after about 5 repetitions, at which point the bass fragments into pizzicato. Three more repetitions follow, rising to a fanfare motive (1:51). This fanfare motive is related to the finale of Vaughan Williams' "Dona nobis pacem" – the vision of Isaiah: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation" and "Open to me the gates of righteousness" – and to the scene of the Arming of the Pilgrim from the opera. This plays against the passacaglia's counter-melody (hereafter referred to as the counter-melody).

At this point (2:17), Vaughan Williams gives up the passacaglia, with about seven more minutes left in the movement. We get an imitative section on the passacaglia theme (referred to from now on as "the passacaglia"), which again leads to the fanfare (2:40). The fanfare combines with the passacaglia and the counter-melody.

The fanfare reaches a climax which quickly deflates to an agitated version of the passacaglia on clarinet (3:39) and other winds. This is (sort of) a B section. The rumblings grow to three outcries of this version at 4:52, 5:11, and 5:18. We hear a disturbed version of the counter-melody, leading to a large climax on the passacaglia (5:41).

This breaks into music from the first movement – the Preludio (6:03) -- like waves against a rock. We are coming to the end, although I hesitate calling this a coda. It's a necessary outgrowth of the movement itself. Wisps of themes from the first movement float around, including (I.d) (6:34 and 6:44), the opening horn call (I.a) (6:55), and (I.b) (7:05).

The reminiscence of the symphony's opening leads to a quiet extended fantasia (7:13) on the counter-melody, fanfare, and fragments of the passacaglia. The movement ends with the high strings taking off into the aether.

Such an unusual musical structure which comes off with such success shows a composer who has mastered form to such an extent, it's in his blood. He dictates the form, rather than allowing the form to dictate the music.

Copyright 1995-2000, Steve Schwartz

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have loved this symphony since the first-time I heard and it remains one of my favorite pieces of all-time. On my initial listen to this work, I had some heavy tears roll down during my cheek during the Romanza movement. There was only one movement in music up at this point that had made me cry and that was the Adagietto from Mahler's 5th. I don't want to go any further as I would come off as a gushing fanboy. What do you guys think of this symphony? Do you believe it's one of the great symphonies of all-time? Any favorite performances? For me, like the Pastoral Symphony (Symphony No. 3), this is a difficult symphony to pull-off well, but both Previn/LSO and Boult/EMI have made the greatest impression on me.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 11, 2017, 10:33:18 PM
Love the expression 'gushing fanboy' - must start using it in conversation.  8)
Yes, one of the great symphonies and arguably VW's finest - must have been very context to hear it originally in the context of London in World War Two.
Barbirolli's EMI recording and VW's recently unearthed own recording are favourites. However there are great versions IMHO by Previn (RCA), Thomson and I also like the Hickox - which has some great lesser-known works coupled with it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2017, 05:03:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 11, 2017, 10:33:18 PM
Love the expression 'gushing fanboy' - must start using it in conversation.  8)
Yes, one of the great symphonies and arguably VW's finest - must have been very context to hear it originally in the context of London in World War Two.
Barbirolli's EMI recording and VW's recently unearthed own recording are favourites. However there are great versions IMHO by Previn (RCA), Thomson and I also like the Hickox - which has some great lesser-known works coupled with it.

:) I never have cared for the Barbirolli recording believe it or not. I find the audio quality too dense and not clear enough. This really hinders the enjoyment of the performance, especially in the Scherzo and Passacaglia movements. We know RVW was a great orchestrator and that analysis of the 5th from the above proves that indeed he was, so, for me, it's always a question of whether the audio quality can handle the myriad of colors in the music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2017, 06:14:42 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2017, 06:21:59 PM
What do you guys think of this symphony? Do you believe it's one of the great symphonies of all-time? Any favorite performances?

I don't do "great" (although I can see why it's considered by some to be his greatest) but there are other VW symphonies I favor more. In fact it took me decades after becoming a certified RVW fan to finally and fully appreciate the Fifth. Menuhin's performance did it. It's still my desert island version. Haitink's slow, dark, brooding reading is another I like. ("Haitink makes of Vaughan Williams' Fifth Symphony a bigger piece than we are used to, with a certain Germanic grandeur which makes one think of Bruckner." --MusicWeb) Previn (Telarc) and Barbirolli round out a Top 4

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on December 12, 2017, 06:36:51 AM
Yes it's wonderful music.  Boult/EMI for me although that audio quality sadly isn't up to EMI's usual very high standards of that period.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2017, 06:39:03 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2017, 06:14:42 AM
I don't do "great" (although I can see why it's considered by some to be his greatest) but there are other VW symphonies I favor more. In fact it took me decades after becoming a certified RVW fan to finally and fully appreciate the Fifth. Menuhin's performance did it. It's still my desert island version. Haitink's slow, dark, brooding reading is another I like. ("Haitink makes of Vaughan Williams' Fifth Symphony a bigger piece than we are used to, with a certain Germanic grandeur which makes one think of Bruckner." --MusicWeb) Previn (Telarc) and Barbirolli round out a Top 4

Sarge

Interesting how we all react differently to the music. I loved the 5th on first-hearing. I was a changed man after this symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2017, 06:50:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 12, 2017, 06:39:03 AM
I loved the 5th on first-hearing. I was a changed man after this symphony.

I can relate...except that: I loved the 4th on first-hearing. I was a changed man after this symphony.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2017, 07:30:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2017, 06:50:28 AM
I can relate...except that: I loved the 4th on first-hearing. I was a changed man after this symphony.

Sarge

The 4th along with the 6th were both symphonies that took some time for me to warm up to, but when I did, yet another window to this multifaceted composer opened up.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on December 12, 2017, 07:58:50 AM
Back to Sinfonia Antartica - or 'Antarctica' as this recording has it  ???

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/411PGQRPTFL.jpg)

(The spelling is discussed in the sleevenotes, where it is explained why 'Sinfonia Antartica' is 'correct' and (less convincingly) why the publishers nevertheless perversely decided to go with 'Antarctica'.)
So, is this recording by Raymond Leppard and the Indianapolis SO a collector's item, or an abberant outlier?  Having recently acquired a used CD for not very much, I'm still not sure which it is.  Incidentally I started to trawl back through this thread to see if it had been reviewed before, only to discover it is mentioned on page 1!  ::)

Well this is never going to be a top recommendation for this music - but there is a lot to like.
First up, the orchestral recording (dating from 1992) is excellent, with a narration added at an ideal level and in a believable acoustic to match the rest, and the organ (recorded separately) again perfectly integrated and with a fruity-sounding 32ft stop.  I think this is the only recording I have by the Indianapolis SO but they seem a fine band and well up to this task.  So too - in general terms - is Leppard - a conductor I've always associated mainly with 18-century music, although I am aware of his very fine recording of Bax's Fifth Symphony.

The narrator is Roger Allam, a name that means nothing to me but apparently an English C-list stage actor, presumably he was 'resting' in 1992.  He has a light voice and a matter-of-fact delivery which is poles apart ;D from the portentous tones of John Gielgud et al.  The texts however are not those prescribed by RVW in the score.  Instead they are all extracts from Scott's diary, which range from the comic (the explorers' interactions with penguins) to the desolated (reaching the pole only to discover the Norwegian flag planted there).  According to the sleevenotes, RVW himself suggested this general idea, in a conversation that he had with Raymond Leppard.  The actual choice of extracts though is Leppard's.

I find they work very well and set up the music nicely as a prologue to each movement, although one extract (before the 2nd movement) is a bit over-long.  However there is a problem, which is that in at least four instances, there is narration within the movement as well - sometimes the music is paused for the narration, and sometimes it is music with voice-over.  For example, over the sustained orchestral pedal-note in the middle movement, immediately before the full orchestra comes in full bore.

Well - I always rip CDs to FLAC (don't have a CD player any more) so having done that it is pretty easy to edit the narration out - so I can have 'with' and 'without' copies on my music server.

Leppard takes the first movement very slowly (much slower than any other version I have to hand) and - surprisingly for a classicist - is interventionist, with frequent use of rubato.  Slow is good in my book, but romanticising is, to my ears, just wrong, the sense of implacable unyielding nature is just lost.  In the most important middle movement on the other hard, Leppard is too quick (quicker than any other version to hand) and so the massive moments just ... aren't massive.  It's the same result as the first movement, but achieved in a different way.  The rest of the music is just fine but it is these two points, more than anything else, that prevent this from being a top Antartica.

Interesting though - I'm glad I bought it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2017, 01:20:03 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on December 12, 2017, 07:58:50 AM
Interesting though - I'm glad I bought it.

Interesting indeed. It sounds as if Leppard treats the Symphony almost as if were incidental music. Unheard at this point, I don't approve of what he's done but would like to hear it nonetheless.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2017, 05:03:55 PM
This doesn't sound like a Sinfonia Antartica I'd be interested in hearing, but thanks for taking one of 'the team'. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2017, 07:06:57 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 12, 2017, 05:55:20 PM
Fresh from the mailbox:

A London Symphony ('Symphony No. 2') - 1920 version
Sound Sleep
Orpheus with his lute
Variations


Elizabeth Watts, soprano
Mary Bevan, soprano
Kitty Whately, mezzo-soprano
Martyn Brabbins, conductor
Royal College of Music Brass Band
BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra


(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571281902.png)

I just finished this disc and all I have to say right now is it's splendid. Absolutely top-drawer in every sense. I'll try to post more of my thoughts tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2017, 09:56:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 12, 2017, 07:06:57 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread:

I just finished this disc and all I have to say right now is it's splendid. Absolutely top-drawer in every sense. I'll try to post more of my thoughts tomorrow morning.

Yes, it's fine in all respects. I like the Variations for Brass Band as well! It was Symphony 6 which did it for me (Boult, LPO Decca LP c.1972).

My older brother had Symphony 5 (Barbirolli/EMI LP) which my mother had bought him by mistake one Christmas when he'd asked for Symphony 4 - however we both immediately liked Symphony 5, the most Sibelian of the cycle and dedicated to the great Finn.

I think that I came to VW via Copland. Copland's Third Symphony (Everest) was one of the first pieces of classical music which I loved. My brother had an LP of it. One day, coming home from school, I was browsing the LPs in WH Smiths (which then had an extended classical music selection) and saw all these LPs by VW. I asked my brother about him and my brother said ('he's a bit like an English Copland') and I then chose Symphony 6 - maybe I was intrigued by the fact that the LP featured a speech by the composer. Never looked back.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 13, 2017, 05:47:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 12, 2017, 09:56:33 PM
Yes, it's fine in all respects. I like the Variations for Brass Band as well! It was Symphony 6 which did it for me (Boult, LPO Decca LP c.1972).

My older brother had Symphony 5 (Barbirolli/EMI LP) which my mother had bought him by mistake one Christmas when he'd asked for Symphony 4 - however we both immediately liked Symphony 5, the most Sibelian of the cycle and dedicated to the great Finn.

I think that I came to VW via Copland. Copland's Third Symphony (Everest) was one of the first pieces of classical music which I loved. My brother had an LP of it. One day, coming home from school, I was browsing the LPs in WH Smiths (which then had an extended classical music selection) and saw all these LPs by VW. I asked my brother about him and my brother said ('he's a bit like an English Copland') and I then chose Symphony 6 - maybe I was intrigued by the fact that the LP featured a speech by the composer. Never looked back.

Yes! Variations for brass band was excellent, too! The entire recording is a winner. It's interesting you came to RVW through Copland. There are some similarities between the composers for sure, although Copland didn't really have many nice things to say about RVW's music like, for example, "Listening to the fifth symphony of Ralph Vaughan Williams is like staring at a cow for 45 minutes." :P Of course, he couldn't be more wrong!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 13, 2017, 06:48:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 12, 2017, 09:56:33 PM

I think that I came to VW via Copland.

I think I came to VW via Sting. There was a profile of Sting in Time magazine, at the time Synchronicity was the album of the moment, so this must have been 1983. It mentioned that Sting's favorite piece of music was VW's 6th Symphony. I thought, "I should check this Williams guy out."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 13, 2017, 07:32:39 AM
Seeing the new recording of the 1920 edition of A London Symphony triggered a desire to do a comparison of versions. I have Hickox' recording of the original 1913 version but have never found time to listen to it. I listened to the first movement of Brabbins' new recording and didn't get much pleasure from it. After a bit of indecision, I listened to the official version of the symphony in Andrew Davis' recording, which I found utterly splendid. No little part of the enjoyment came from the audio quality. Teldec still maintains something of the old Telefunken "house sound" which I enjoy. Then went back to Haitink, which I also enjoyed, although the mid 80's early digital engineering was a little grating. Now I feel I've run out of steam before getting to the Hickox 1913 version. I never really seem to get much enjoyment from "comparisons" anyway, and based on what I've been reading the final version of the symphony is likely to be my favourite anyway.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 13, 2017, 08:07:23 AM
I think the Leppard/Antarctica is very fine - Leppard has a fine sense of the drama of the work and - before recent times when the extended soundtrack has become available - I rather like the counter intuitive idea of adding more narration given that most performances of the Symphony now chose to omit the superscriptions.  Leppard recorded a wide range of repertoire on disc and of course was the principal conductor of the BBC Northern SO for 7 years - and I rather doubt they only played baroque opera during that time.  .

I think its rather patronising to state that a) an actor is unknown to one and then b) state they are a c-lister.  To my ear Allam is excellent in his delivery of the text giving these diary entries warmth and humanity.  In recent times Allam has been a stalwart of many fine British TV programmes and films.... no c-lister in my book.

In no sense is this recording "taking one for the team".  Fine engineering, fine orchestral playing and a convincing interpretation make this a version well worth hearing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2017, 11:38:05 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 13, 2017, 06:48:00 AM
I think I came to VW via Sting. There was a profile of Sting in Time magazine, at the time Synchronicity was the album of the moment, so this must have been 1983. It mentioned that Sting's favorite piece of music was VW's 6th Symphony. I thought, "I should check this Williams guy out."
Very interesting about 'Sting' - I always liked the 'Blue Turtles' album, especially with its Prokofiev quotation. As to Copland and VW I think that Copland changed his mind in later years about VW in much the same way that Tippett did.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 13, 2017, 12:03:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 13, 2017, 11:38:05 AMVery interesting about 'Sting' - I always liked the 'Blue Turtles' album, especially with its Prokofiev quotation. As to Copland and VW I think that Copland changed his mind in later years about VW in much the same way that Tippett did.
David Bowie was another Vaughan Williams fan. About ten years ago, he even discussed classical music at the Gramophone forum (forgot how it was/is called).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2017, 12:39:53 PM
Quote from: Christo on December 13, 2017, 12:03:01 PM
David Bowie was another Vaughan Williams fan. About ten years ago, he even discussed classical music at the Gramophone forum (forgot how it was/is called).

As apparently was Frank Sinatra. A fact that I find oddly moving as my father loved Frank Sinatra's music. I would never have made this connection. I occasionally listen to Frank: 'I've Got You Under My Skin' etc.
I wish my dad had known of Sinatra's admiration for VW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 13, 2017, 04:27:41 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 13, 2017, 07:32:39 AM
Seeing the new recording of the 1920 edition of A London Symphony triggered a desire to do a comparison of versions. I have Hickox' recording of the original 1913 version but have never found time to listen to it. I listened to the first movement of Brabbins' new recording and didn't get much pleasure from it. After a bit of indecision, I listened to the official version of the symphony in Andrew Davis' recording, which I found utterly splendid. No little part of the enjoyment came from the audio quality. Teldec still maintains something of the old Telefunken "house sound" which I enjoy. Then went back to Haitink, which I also enjoyed, although the mid 80's early digital engineering was a little grating. Now I feel I've run out of steam before getting to the Hickox 1913 version. I never really seem to get much enjoyment from "comparisons" anyway, and based on what I've been reading the final version of the symphony is likely to be my favourite anyway.

Funny, I find Andrew Davis' RVW an absolute bore. The new Brabbins is outstanding. I really hope this signifies a new cycle, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on December 14, 2017, 12:48:56 AM
It's a good recording and performance, but I've come to the conclusion that I prefer the final (edited) edition of the Symphony. The last movement is very meandering in the earlier versions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on December 14, 2017, 01:10:14 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 13, 2017, 08:07:23 AM
I think the Leppard/Antarctica is very fine - ...

I think its rather patronising to state that a) an actor is unknown to one and then b) state they are a c-lister.  To my ear Allam is excellent in his delivery of the text giving these diary entries warmth and humanity.  In recent times Allam has been a stalwart of many fine British TV programmes and films.... no c-lister in my book.

In no sense is this recording "taking one for the team".  Fine engineering, fine orchestral playing and a convincing interpretation make this a version well worth hearing.

I think I did compare Allam's delivery favourably with that of John Gielgud.  And I agree the whole thing is very fine, just two points of interpretation which I personally don't much like.  This music needs the stoicism of Boult, or the steel of Haitink.  Leppard certainly does have an advantage, that (like Boult, and Barbirolli) he had a direct connection with the composer.
I forgot to mention there is a filler by the way - not obvious from the sleeve artwork - the Tallis Fantasia - but I haven't listened to it yet.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 14, 2017, 09:03:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 13, 2017, 04:27:41 PM
Funny, I find Andrew Davis' RVW an absolute bore. The new Brabbins is outstanding. I really hope this signifies a new cycle, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.

I can't speak for the cycle, but I found the Andrew Davis recording of A London Symphony to be close to ideal. I don't really see there is much room for interpretive liberty in this music, but Andrew Davis keeps the very heavy orchestration in this music in perfect balance and I like the unhurried tempo of the Scherzo. I also appreciate that the heavy (unpleasantly excessive) use of untuned percussion (bass drum, cymbals) is not allowed to get out of control. What I listened to of Brabbins seemed very well done, but the engineering wasn't as appealing to me.

Quote from: aukhawk on December 14, 2017, 12:48:56 AM
It's a good recording and performance, but I've come to the conclusion that I prefer the final (edited) edition of the Symphony. The last movement is very meandering in the earlier versions.

I am curious to hear the excised passages that were so highly praised by Vaughan Williams' contemporaries, but the work does not lack for meandering, even in its final form. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2017, 10:42:00 AM
The 1920 version remains my favourite. I think that Ralph went 'a revision too far' - over influenced by the concision of Sibelius I think, who was at the height of his fame in Britain in the mid 1930s.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 14, 2017, 10:52:10 AM
Maybe I will try 1920 instead of 1913 but at the moment I feel RVW saturation.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2017, 10:55:03 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 14, 2017, 10:52:10 AM
Maybe I will try 1920 instead of 1913.

There are three versions, Goossens (historic), Yates and Brabbins (modern). IMHO VW cut out the most moving bit of the symphony in the Epilogue just before the end.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on December 14, 2017, 01:28:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 13, 2017, 04:27:41 PM
Funny, I find Andrew Davis' RVW an absolute bore. The new Brabbins is outstanding. I really hope this signifies a new cycle, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.

Hi John ! It's not the first time you mention Davis not doing anything for you in VW's music  ;). I have that set, as well as the 2 Boults, the Handley, the Slatkin and assorted singles from other sets. I love Davis for the firmness he brings to the musical argument, the commitment of the playing and the lucidity of the engineering. Obviously no single set will score consistently top marks for all the symphonies, but I won't part with Davis any time soon.

Regarding the 1920 version of no 2: I've never heard it. Thanks for your recommendation (and Vandermolen's as well). I'll look for that Brabbins disc.

Cheers!

André
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 14, 2017, 05:25:49 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 14, 2017, 09:03:10 AMI can't speak for the cycle, but I found the Andrew Davis recording of A London Symphony to be close to ideal. I don't really see there is much room for interpretive liberty in this music, but Andrew Davis keeps the very heavy orchestration in this music in perfect balance and I like the unhurried tempo of the Scherzo. I also appreciate that the heavy (unpleasantly excessive) use of untuned percussion (bass drum, cymbals) is not allowed to get out of control. What I listened to of Brabbins seemed very well done, but the engineering wasn't as appealing to me.

I am curious to hear the excised passages that were so highly praised by Vaughan Williams' contemporaries, but the work does not lack for meandering, even in its final form. :)

I really should revisit Davis' RVW cycle, but my last impression was I found too 'middle of the road' for me and I expected more fire. I don't really have any issues with the audio quality on the Brabbins recording. Sounds great to my ears.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 14, 2017, 05:30:32 PM
Quote from: André on December 14, 2017, 01:28:43 PM
Hi John ! It's not the first time you mention Davis not doing anything for you in VW's music  ;). I have that set, as well as the 2 Boults, the Handley, the Slatkin and assorted singles from other sets. I love Davis for the firmness he brings to the musical argument, the commitment of the playing and the lucidity of the engineering. Obviously no single set will score consistently top marks for all the symphonies, but I won't part with Davis any time soon.

Regarding the 1920 version of no 2: I've never heard it. Thanks for your recommendation (and Vandermolen's as well). I'll look for that Brabbins disc.

Cheers!

André

I really ought to revisit the Davis BBC SO cycle now! This is the second mention of him in this thread recently and my head is spinning in trying to decide what to do. Obviously, I should just listen with a clear-head. I'll probably listen to his cycle over the weekend. I do like Andrew Davis' conducting in general.

Concerning the new Brabbins disc, yes you should! I think you'll enjoy it greatly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 15, 2017, 09:14:00 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 14, 2017, 05:25:49 PM
I really should revisit Davis' RVW cycle, but my last impression was I found too 'middle of the road' for me and I expected more fire.

I like Andrew Davis because he is neutral (rather than "middle of the road") producing a well balanced, committed performance without introducing idiosyncratic elements. (Andre introduced the word "committed" which nicely sums it up.) I hold his RVW, Elgar and Holst in very high regard because of this approach and because of the splendid sound Teldec gave him. If he is not your cup of tea, nothing wrong with that. I always pipe up for him because I think readers of the site shouldn't take away the impression that he is to be summarily dismissed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2017, 10:31:15 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 15, 2017, 09:14:00 AM
I like Andrew Davis because he is neutral (rather than "middle of the road") producing a well balanced, committed performance without introducing idiosyncratic elements. (Andre introduced the word "committed" which nicely sums it up.) I hold his RVW, Elgar and Holst in very high regard because of this approach and because of the splendid sound Teldec gave him. If he is not your cup of tea, nothing wrong with that. I always pipe up for him because I think readers of the site shouldn't take away the impression that he is to be summarily dismissed.


Thanks; I should revisit Davis' Elgar, which I recall enjoying.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on December 15, 2017, 04:12:54 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2017, 10:31:15 AM
Thanks; I should revisit Davis' Elgar, which I recall enjoying.

Firmly recommended: his Chandos recordings of The Crown of India and The Dream of Gerontius. I find it impossible to fault them in any way.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2017, 04:21:41 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 15, 2017, 09:14:00 AM
I like Andrew Davis because he is neutral (rather than "middle of the road") producing a well balanced, committed performance without introducing idiosyncratic elements. (Andre introduced the word "committed" which nicely sums it up.) I hold his RVW, Elgar and Holst in very high regard because of this approach and because of the splendid sound Teldec gave him. If he is not your cup of tea, nothing wrong with that. I always pipe up for him because I think readers of the site shouldn't take away the impression that he is to be summarily dismissed.

I certainly enjoy Davis' Elgar. I find both his Teldec and Signum Classics recordings to be top-drawer. I listened to his The Lark Ascending with Tasmin Little (on Teldec) earlier this morning and I think they both missed some detail in this work and Davis' general tempo made feel like he was ready for lunch already. Not my kind of performance at all. If this is any indication of what his RVW performances are going to be like I'm in for some disappointment I'm afraid. Anyway, I'll probably revisit the cycle this weekend.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on December 15, 2017, 04:48:12 PM
It's perfectly okay to like or not to like a conductor's approach. Davis is a non-romantic VW conductor. He's not without feelings, but he focuses on a work's architecture, balances, sonorities, possibly at the expense of the music's emotional possibilities. His reading of the 6th is high on drama, possibly his best interpretation of the cycle. I don't find him emotionally distant, deficient or constipated, but I can understand someone may feel shortchanged in this area !
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2017, 05:16:03 PM
Quote from: André on December 15, 2017, 04:48:12 PM
It's perfectly okay to like or not to like a conductor's approach. Davis is a non-romantic VW conductor. He's not without feelings, but he focuses on a work's architecture, balances, sonorities, possibly at the expense of the music's emotional possibilities. His reading of the 6th is high on drama, possibly his best interpretation of the cycle. I don't find him emotionally distant, deficient or constipated, but I can understand someone may feel shortchanged in this area !

I do need to refresh my memory of the cycle. I remember being much more harsh on Davis' later RVW recordings (on Chandos) and found his Teldec cycle to be quite good overall. But, again, I need a refresher.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 16, 2017, 11:05:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 14, 2017, 10:55:03 AM
There are three versions, Goossens (historic), Yates and Brabbins (modern). IMHO VW cut out the most moving bit of the symphony in the Epilogue just before the end.

What's your favorite excised passage and how far back do I have to go to hear it? 1913 or 1920?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2017, 12:37:42 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 16, 2017, 11:05:45 AM
What's your favorite excised passage and how far back do I have to go to hear it? 1913 or 1920?
Ok - it is still there in 1920 and remained in place until the composer's (mistaken IMHO) revision in 1936. In other words for 23 years the composer thought it worth including.

I have Martin Yates's Dutton RSNO recording of the 1920 version to hand and on that CD you will hear it from c.10.25 minutes into the last movement (Track 7) until about 12.00 minutes. A minute and a half or so of movingly poetic music, the absence of which I'm acutely aware of whenever I listen to the 1936 version, which I hardly ever do nowadays. If you listen to the 1913 version or the other two recordings of the 1920 version you should find it around the same place. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on December 16, 2017, 12:54:58 PM
You're the best, my good man !

I have the original version on Chandos. What was changed in the 1920 revision ? Am I missing something important ?

Edit: maybe a link to some article ? Meanwhile I'll scour wikipedia to see what they have to say  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2017, 01:03:19 PM
Quote from: André on December 16, 2017, 12:54:58 PM
You're the best, my good man !

I have the original version on Chandos. What was changed in the 1920 revision ? Am I missing something important ?

Haha  :)

The 1913 version has everything in it, so you don't, IMHO, need the 1920 version. Because I am an OCDCDCD completist nutter I have, of course, collected all versions including two of the 1920 Goossens version (different cover images you understand  ::))
Having said that the new Brabbins version of the 1920 edition is worth having for the interesting additional works. Also the 1920 version is my favourite I think. The 1913 version is perhaps a bit rambling and diffuse (like London itself) and the 1936 version, over influenced by the example of Sibelius (IMO of course) is too concise. The 1920 version is just right (reminds me of Goldilocks and the porridge).  :)

PS the first movement is the same in all editions. VW made some cuts in the slow movement in 1920, cutting twelve bars and adjusting the orchestration somewhat.

That CD of the 1913 version is one of the most important VW recordings ever made. It was such a pleasure to be there in London to hear the first performance of the 1913 version since c.1920. When I asked him to sign my programme for the concert Richard Hickox, the conductor, said that he agreed with me that VW had excised the best bit of the symphony - although he may, of course, have been agreeing to get rid of me.

So, basically, my good friend, you are not missing anything.
  ;)

Here is the info:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on December 16, 2017, 01:15:54 PM
Excellent, Jeffrey, thanks ! Goldilocks was right: never eat burning stuff. Better to let it sit a while  ;D.

I did my homework and read the wiki article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony). The problem of the versions is well laid out, but will be of interest to musicians who can read and have the 1912 score at hand. From what I understand, the cuts are mainly in the finale (2 passages) and the Epilogue.

I'll give the Hickox version a spin and see if I can spot unfamiliar passages (they would be the most likely ones to have suffered the composer's bouts of self-criticism, I assume). OTOH it's quite likely I won't be able to identify them  ::). In any case, I took note of the Brabbins and note it down for a purchase next year.

Cheers !

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2017, 01:26:05 PM
Quote from: André on December 16, 2017, 01:15:54 PM
Excellent, Jeffrey, thanks ! Goldilocks was right: never eat burning stuff. Better to let it sit a while  ;D.

I did my homework and read the wiki article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony). The problem of the versions is well laid out, but will be of interest to musicians who can read and have the 1912 score at hand. From what I understand, the cuts are mainly in the finale (2 passages) and the Epilogue.

I'll give the Hickox version a spin and see if I can spot unfamiliar passages (they would be the most likely ones to have suffered the composer's bouts of self-criticism, I assume). OTOH it's quite likely I won't be able to identify them  ::). In any case, I took note of the Brabbins and note it down for a purchase next year.

Cheers !

My pleasure Andre!

I read the Wiki article too. It seems that Sir Dan Godfrey may have a lot to answer for. He made the first recording of the Symphony and decided to make a big cut in the Epilogue so that the symphony would fit on twelve 78rpm sides! What an appalling act of cultural vandalism  :o
VW later cut exactly the same material for the 1936 version and therefore may have been influenced by Godfrey's recording. If you listen to the 1920 or 1913 versions there is an extended section in the Lento from about 11 minutes in which you can't fail to notice is missing in 1936. Arnold Bax, Adrian Boult and Bernard Herrmann - all friend's of the composer argued with him about these cuts but to no avail.

I bought the Adrian Boult EMI boxed set on LP in 1972 and listened to A London Symphony (1936) a great deal. So it is relatively easy for me to notice which sections were there in 1913 and 1920 which had gone by the time of the final edition of the score.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 16, 2017, 02:01:46 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 16, 2017, 01:03:19 PMThat CD of the 1913 version is one of the most important VW recordings ever made. It was such a pleasure to be there in London to hear the first performance of the 1913 version since c.1920. When I asked him to sign my programme for the concert Richard Hickox, the conductor, said that he agreed with me that VW had excised the best bit of the symphony - although he may, of course, have been agreeing to get rid of me.

I recall reading in the notes to the Chandos recording that permission was only given for the recording. The RVW's widow relent and allow a concert?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2017, 02:19:11 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 16, 2017, 02:01:46 PM
I recall reading in the notes to the Chandos recording that permission was only given for the recording. The RVW's widow relent and allow a concert?

Yes, you are quite right, she did. As far as I'm aware it was performed twice. All credit to her for giving permission. She was at the concert I attended. There has only been one recording of the 1913 version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 16, 2017, 02:33:02 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 16, 2017, 02:19:11 PM
Yes, you are quite right, she did. As far as I'm aware it was performed twice. All credit to her for giving permission. She was at the concert I attended. There has only been one recording of the 1913 version.

And who could imagine how little time Richard Hickox had left, at that point...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2017, 05:16:24 PM
I really, really enjoyed the 1920 version and I plan on listening to Brabbins' excellent recording again tomorrow. I suppose I have collected some thoughts now and can share them: one of the things that made me perk up in this Brabbins performance was his attention to the atmosphere of the symphony and how it continued throughout the performance. From the first measure, you can tell this is a going to be a special performance due to Brabbins' attention to the detail in this introduction. I might be going out on a limb here, but dare I say it's the finest performance of this symphony I've heard (and I've heard A LOT of performances through the years). I vastly prefer this one to the Hickox, which I know are different versions, but, still, I'm mightily impressed with this latest Hyperion offer. I do hope that Brabbins gets around to conducting the complete cycle, but I'm not going to let wishful thinking get the best of me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 16, 2017, 05:28:23 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 16, 2017, 02:19:11 PM
Yes, you are quite right, she did. As far as I'm aware it was performed twice. All credit to her for giving permission. She was at the concert I attended. There has only been one recording of the 1913 version.

Now I'm tempted to listen to this one instead.

[asin]B0000241EM[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 17, 2017, 12:08:43 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 16, 2017, 02:33:02 PM
And who could imagine how little time Richard Hickox had left, at that point...

Yes, that's very sad. I saw him conduct great performances of 'Pilgrim's Progress' (semi-staged) and Symphony 9 shortly before his untimely death. I'm sorry that the performance of No.9 was not recorded as it was one of the gaps in his Chandos series. His young son was 'The Wooductter's Boy' in Pilgrim's Progress.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 17, 2017, 12:13:15 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 16, 2017, 05:28:23 PM
Now I'm tempted to listen to this one instead.

[asin]B0000241EM[/asin]

Probably my favourite recording of the 1936 version - very atmospheric. The scherzo was controversially slow but I find a unique warmth about Barbirolli's interpretation and he was close to the composer. I think that he was originally going to share the EMI symphony cycle with Boult but only recorded symphonies 2 and 5 for EMI before he died c.1970 and so Boult ended up recording the whole cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 17, 2017, 01:15:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 16, 2017, 05:16:24 PM
I really, really enjoyed the 1920 version and I plan on listening to Brabbins' excellent recording again tomorrow. I suppose I have collected some thoughts now and can share them: one of the things that made me perk up in this Brabbins performance was his attention to the atmosphere of the symphony and how it continued throughout the performance. From the first measure, you can tell this is a going to be a special performance due to Brabbins' attention to the detail in this introduction. I might be going out on a limb here, but dare I say it's the finest performance of this symphony I've heard (and I've heard A LOT of performances through the years). I vastly prefer this one to the Hickox, which I know are different versions, but, still, I'm mightily impressed with this latest Hyperion offer. I do hope that Brabbins gets around to conducting the complete cycle, but I'm not going to let wishful thinking get the best of me.
Yes, it's an excellent release. I've been listening to the Yates recording  (partly because I don't know where I've put the Brabbins version  ::)) which was the first modern recording of the 1920 edition of A London Symphony. I enjoy this version as well and its coupling the Concerto for Two a Pianos, which I prefer to the one piano version. The only previous version of the 1920 version was from Eugene Goossens with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, recorded in early 1941. It only used the 1920 version as those were the only band parts available at the time. I would imagine that it was, to some extent, recorded as a tribute to London during the Blitz of World War Two. It has recently been restored and released by 'Klassic Haus' with the composer's own recording of Symphony 4.

I've also heard an even more curious version of A London Symphony with Koussevitsky conducting - also during World War Two. It is of the 1936 version but includes something completely different to any other version. Koussevitsky brings back the famous chimes of 'Big Ben' at the very end of the symphony :o. I couldn't believe it when I first heard it as this included material not even composed by Vaughan Williams! Having said that, in a way, I found it rather moving in its wartime context.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2017, 06:16:26 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 17, 2017, 01:15:01 AM
Yes, it's an excellent release. I've been listening to the Yates recording  (partly because I don't know where I've put the Brabbins version  ::)) which was the first modern recording of the 1920 edition of A London Symphony. I enjoy this version as well and its coupling the Concerto for Two a Pianos, which I prefer to the one piano version. The only previous version of the 1920 version was from Eugene Goossens with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, recorded in early 1941. It only used the 1920 version as those were the only band parts available at the time. I would imagine that it was, to some extent, recorded as a tribute to London during the Blitz of World War Two. It has recently been restored and released by 'Klassic Haus' with the composer's own recording of Symphony 4.

I've also heard an even more curious version of A London Symphony with Koussevitsky conducting - also during World War Two. It is of the 1936 version but includes something completely different to any other version. Koussevitsky brings back the famous chimes of 'Big Ben' at the very end of the symphony :o. I couldn't believe it when I first heard it as this included material not even composed by Vaughan Williams! Having said that, in a way, I found it rather moving in its wartime context.

I have the Yates performance somewhere. I'll have to dig it out at some point, but I have the Brabbins blueprinted in my mind at this point and so, at this juncture, personal bias has an ugly way of rearing it's head as it was this performance that made me finally appreciate A London Symphony in all its' glory. I always liked the work, but now I love it. I still wouldn't rate it as highly as it's successor, but it's a gorgeous symphony with loads of textural touches that make it even more enticing. In regard to Concerto for Two Pianos, for years, I preferred this two-piano version until recently when I was blown away by the Howard Shelley/Thomson performance on Chandos. Shelley's pianism in conjunction with Thomson's sympathetic accompaniment (+ Chandos' sumptuous sonics) made this a real ear-opener. The reason I prefer the one-piano version is because it's uncluttered and there's nothing to get in the piano's way. The orchestration also is much clearer when there's less 'fighting room' so to speak. Of course, I do admire the two-piano version, but I feel nowadays that it's better with just the one piano. There's also a great performance with Ashley Wass/Judd with the Liverpudlians on Naxos that's worth checking out (if you haven't heard it already).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2017, 07:53:49 AM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 16, 2017, 07:38:21 AM
(https://images.jet.com/md5/073b246955f033442e5212e296ccdf18.500)

Does anyone own this book? I bought it with hopes of some deeper discussion on works like Flos campi, Symphonies Nos. 4-6, and Job.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 17, 2017, 08:07:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 17, 2017, 07:53:49 AM
Cross-posted from the ‘Purchases’ thread:

Does anyone own this book? I bought it with hopes of some deeper discussion on works like Flos campi, Symphonies Nos. 4-6, and Job.

I own a paperback edition 1971 (OUP).  It is a fairly comprehensive survey of RVW's work and as he was so prolific it doesn't go into great detail and mainly concentrates on the circumstances of the composition and reception of the work rather than technical detail. The 6th symphony, for example is covered in just 4 pages. The book is organised in decades rather than genre and to some extent is a musical biography of RVW.

The hard back first edition (1964) had a complete and detailed catalogue of all RVW's works, a list of folk songs he collected, a bibliography and discography (now out of date). These are all ommited from the paperback edition.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 17, 2017, 08:15:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 17, 2017, 07:53:49 AM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Does anyone own this book? I bought it with hopes of some deeper discussion on works like Flos campi, Symphonies Nos. 4-6, and Job.

There are not many books that deal in any great analytical detail with RVW's music.  I like Wilfred Meller's overview - Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion.  In terms of listing/discussing the music A E F Dickinson's "Vaughan Williams" is quite comprehensive but I sometimes wonder if he likes the music much!  Hugh Ottaway wrote a study specifically about the symphonies but I have not read that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2017, 08:18:27 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 17, 2017, 08:15:34 AM
There are not many books that deal in any great analytical detail with RVW's music.  I like Wilfred Meller's overview - Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion.  In terms of listing/discussing the music A E F Dickinson's "Vaughan Williams" is quite comprehensive but I sometimes wonder if he likes the music much!  Hugh Ottaway wrote a study specifically about the symphonies but I have not read that.

Quote from: Biffo on December 17, 2017, 08:07:48 AM
I own a paperback edition 1971 (OUP).  It is a fairly comprehensive survey of RVW's work and as he was so prolific it doesn't go into great detail and mainly concentrates on the circumstances of the composition and reception of the work rather than technical detail. The 6th symphony, for example is covered in just 4 pages. The book is organised in decades rather than genre and to some extent is a musical biography of RVW.

The hard back first edition (1964) had a complete and detailed catalogue of all RVW's works, a list of folk songs he collected, a bibliography and discography (now out of date). These are all ommited from the paperback edition.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kishnevi on December 17, 2017, 05:53:39 PM
On another topic
Listening tonight to Symphony No. 6*, perhaps primed by the jazzy saxophone solo, I thought I caught a Gershwin quote in the Scherzo.  Am I imagining that or is it really there?

*For the record, Haitink /LPO
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2017, 07:09:38 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 17, 2017, 05:53:39 PM
On another topic
Listening tonight to Symphony No. 6*, perhaps primed by the jazzy saxophone solo, I thought I caught a Gershwin quote in the Scherzo.  Am I imagining that or is it really there?

*For the record, Haitink /LPO

I'm not sure about a Gershwin quote, but he wrote that particular part in memory of an English jazz musician who was killed during a Nazi air raid (?). I put the question mark, because I may very well be misremembering. Vandermolen probably knows better than I.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 17, 2017, 07:54:55 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 17, 2017, 05:53:39 PM
On another topic
Listening tonight to Symphony No. 6*, perhaps primed by the jazzy saxophone solo, I thought I caught a Gershwin quote in the Scherzo.  Am I imagining that or is it really there?

*For the record, Haitink /LPO

I read here that the sax solo in the Scherzo subtly quotes Steven Foster's Swanee River (the apparent backstory is fascinating): http://americansymphony.org/ralph-vaughan-williams-symphony-no-6/ (http://americansymphony.org/ralph-vaughan-williams-symphony-no-6/)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 18, 2017, 01:34:27 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 17, 2017, 08:18:27 AM
Thanks for the feedback, guys. Much appreciated.

The Cambridge Companion to Vaughan Williams has some fairly detailed analysis of the symphonies and it discusses symphonies 4-6 together, highlighting similarities and differences but again the symphonies are only two chapters of the book and the other works you are interested in only get brief mentions. It is also quite expensive; I went for the Kindle edition, which is a lot cheaper, but I know not everybody likes e-books.

https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Companion-Vaughan-Williams-Companions/dp/0521162904/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513593145&sr=1-1&keywords=vaughan+williams+companion

I haven't read AEF Dickinson's study of RVW but I do have his book on Berlioz and there he also gives an impression of not liking his subject very much.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2017, 06:22:33 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 18, 2017, 01:34:27 AM
The Cambridge Companion to Vaughan Williams has some fairly detailed analysis of the symphonies and it discusses symphonies 4-6 together, highlighting similarities and differences but again the symphonies are only two chapters of the book and the other works you are interested in only get brief mentions. It is also quite expensive; I went for the Kindle edition, which is a lot cheaper, but I know not everybody likes e-books.

https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Companion-Vaughan-Williams-Companions/dp/0521162904/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513593145&sr=1-1&keywords=vaughan+williams+companion

I haven't read AEF Dickinson's study of RVW but I do have his book on Berlioz and there he also gives an impression of not liking his subject very much.

Ah yes, I do own that Cambridge book, but it seems that it's short on information about the actual music itself as you mention. As far as I'm concerned, his symphonies are his most important contribution to music (not that I don't think his other music isn't important of course) and it would be nice to have a study on each individual symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on December 18, 2017, 07:15:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 18, 2017, 06:22:33 AM
Ah yes, I do own that Cambridge book, but it seems that it's short on information about the actual music itself as you mention. As far as I'm concerned, his symphonies are his most important contribution to music (not that I don't think his other music isn't important of course) and it would be nice to have a study on each individual symphony.

This might be the sort of thing you're after.

https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-music-guides/dp/0295952334/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513613533&sr=1-2&keywords=vaughan+williams+symphonies (https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-music-guides/dp/0295952334/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513613533&sr=1-2&keywords=vaughan+williams+symphonies)

I have a copy of this (with a whole bunch of others in the same series) and it goes into a decent amount of detail on each symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kishnevi on December 18, 2017, 07:16:44 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 17, 2017, 07:54:55 PM
I read here that the sax solo in the Scherzo subtly quotes Steven Foster's Swanee River (the apparent backstory is fascinating): http://americansymphony.org/ralph-vaughan-williams-symphony-no-6/ (http://americansymphony.org/ralph-vaughan-williams-symphony-no-6/)

Of course, that's it...my mind simply pitched onto the wrong piece of music.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2017, 07:19:25 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 18, 2017, 07:15:54 AM
This might be the sort of thing you're after.

https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-music-guides/dp/0295952334/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513613533&sr=1-2&keywords=vaughan+williams+symphonies (https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-music-guides/dp/0295952334/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513613533&sr=1-2&keywords=vaughan+williams+symphonies)

I have a copy of this (with a whole bunch of others in the same series) and it goes into a decent amount of detail on each symphony.

Cool, thanks, Maestro.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 18, 2017, 09:02:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 17, 2017, 07:09:38 PM
I'm not sure about a Gershwin quote, but he wrote that particular part in memory of an English jazz musician who was killed during a Nazi air raid (?). I put the question mark, because I may very well be misremembering. Vandermolen probably knows better than I.

VW letter to Fritz Hart (8th August 1943)

'....I've been hearing some American music lately. I admired Copland but not Piston - also I loved Gershwin's Pfte Concerto - just a series of intriguing tunes - but why not?'

(Letters of Ralph Vaughan Williams 1895-1958 Ed. Hugh Cobbe 2008)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 18, 2017, 09:41:19 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 18, 2017, 07:15:54 AM
This might be the sort of thing you're after.

https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-music-guides/dp/0295952334/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513613533&sr=1-2&keywords=vaughan+williams+symphonies (https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-music-guides/dp/0295952334/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513613533&sr=1-2&keywords=vaughan+williams+symphonies)

I have a copy of this (with a whole bunch of others in the same series) and it goes into a decent amount of detail on each symphony.

That is an excellent book. Great photo of VW and his favourite cat 'Foxy' too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 18, 2017, 09:42:26 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 18, 2017, 07:16:44 AM
Of course, that's it...my mind simply pitched onto the wrong piece of music.
Thank you.

I think that 'Swanee River' is very evident in that part of the scherzo.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 18, 2017, 09:52:53 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 17, 2017, 07:53:49 AM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Does anyone own this book? I bought it with hopes of some deeper discussion on works like Flos campi, Symphonies Nos. 4-6, and Job.

I have the paperback version. It was a companion to Ursula's biography, which I received by mistake as a 17/18 year old when I thought I'd ordered the Illustrated biography with all the photos  ::). Still, I kept it and read both books. The Ursula book read a bit like VW's desk diary. Far more significant material about VW's life has come out in recent years. It was a bit of a 'court biography' although I still enjoyed it. Michael Kennedy was a young friend of VW's and he only died comparatively recently. His musical biography is very good with some personal letters at the back. It was good though when alternatives to Kennedy's book started to appear, although it remains invaluable for an insight into his compositions and does not shy away from the reaction against Vaughan Williams's music in the mid 1950s.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2017, 12:36:27 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 18, 2017, 09:52:53 AM
I have the paperback version. It was a companion to Ursula's biography, which I received by mistake as a 17/18 year old when I thought I'd ordered the Illustrated biography with all the photos  ::). Still, I kept it and read both books. The Ursula book read a bit like VW's desk diary. Far more significant material about VW's life has come out in recent years. It was a bit of a 'court biography' although I still enjoyed it. Michael Kennedy was a young friend of VW's and he only died comparatively recently. His musical biography is very good with some personal letters at the back. It was good though when alternatives to Kennedy's book started to appear, although it remains invaluable for an insight into his compositions and does not shy away from the reaction against Vaughan Williams's music in the mid 1950s.

Thanks, Jeffrey. I look forward to that Kennedy book.

This book looks rather enticing but that price tag is definitely keeping me away:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41le0zugBpL._SX319_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 18, 2017, 12:49:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 18, 2017, 12:36:27 PM
Thanks, Jeffrey. I look forward to that Kennedy book.

This book looks rather enticing but that price tag is definitely keeping me away:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41le0zugBpL._SX319_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

I think that just lists all his works John, although an invaluable reference work. Great cover photo though!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2017, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 18, 2017, 12:49:18 PM
I think that just lists all his works John, although an invaluable reference work. Great cover photo though!

Ah yes and, again, too expensive!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 18, 2017, 11:13:37 PM
Oh my lord. There are no words that can describe this. A London Symphony, Barbirolli, Halle.

[asin]B0000241EM[/asin]

The mastery that Barbirolli exhibits in the fist movement is utterly overwhelming to me. The attention to detail, and the majestic sweep of it. It is indescribable. In the second movement, the great climactic passage that comes roughly 2/3 of the way is awe inspiring. Just waterfalls of music coming down. One can regret that in 1967 the engineering available couldn't fully do justice to such a performance, and the more than 20 year old remastering is excessively bright and probably left some subtlety behind on the tape, but it is good enough to evoke what took place in that room, in front of those microphones.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 19, 2017, 12:35:25 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 18, 2017, 11:13:37 PM
Oh my lord. There are no words that can describe this. A London Symphony, Barbirolli, Halle.

[asin]B0000241EM[/asin]

The mastery that Barbirolli exhibits in the fist movement is utterly overwhelming to me. The attention to detail, and the majestic sweep of it. It is indescribable. In the second movement, the great climactic passage that comes roughly 2/3 of the way is awe inspiring. Just waterfalls of music coming down. One can regret that in 1967 the engineering available couldn't fully do justice to such a performance, and the more than 20 year old remastering is excessively bright and probably left some subtlety behind on the tape, but it is good enough to evoke what took place in that room, in front of those microphones.

I told you it was good!
:)
VW told Barbirolli that 'A London Symphony' was his favourite of his own symphonies (at least his first eight as he told him before he had composed No.9).

BBC Music Magazine (Christmas issue) reviews three VW CDs including the complete 'Scott of the Antarctic' film music (excellent!) and the Brabbins 1920 London Symphony as well as the Andrew Davis 'Sinfonia Antartica/Concerto for Two Pianos CD. Of the Brabbins 1920 London Symphony the reviewer writes:

'In the 1920 version the serene polyphonic writing for strings in the first movement's introduction is mirrored by a similar balancing passage in the finale's epilogue. Fine as this is, its omission in the final 1933 version makes the epilogue's process of dissolution more concise, and therefore more striking. The post-1920 removal of two superb linking passages in the slow movement is much harder to understand - especially the second of these, with its solo horn, cor anglais, clarinet, and mysteriously dissonant accompanying tremolo strings.'

Thought this was interesting and I see his point about the mirroring of the 'serene polyphonic writing' at the end of the work. However, I'd much rather it was still there and agree with Michael Kennedy whom I seem to recall wrote that the extended cut at the end ushered in the epilogue too abruptly.

'
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 19, 2017, 01:23:46 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 18, 2017, 07:15:54 AM
This might be the sort of thing you're after.

https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-music-guides/dp/0295952334/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513613533&sr=1-2&keywords=vaughan+williams+symphonies (https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-music-guides/dp/0295952334/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513613533&sr=1-2&keywords=vaughan+williams+symphonies)

I have a copy of this (with a whole bunch of others in the same series) and it goes into a decent amount of detail on each symphony.

I have ordered a secondhand copy of this book from Amazon marketplace, cost 1p (+ 2.86 P&P). Many thanks to Maestro267 and Roasted Swan for mentioning it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 19, 2017, 01:32:38 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 19, 2017, 01:23:46 AM
I have ordered a secondhand copy of this book from Amazon marketplace, cost 1p (+ 2.86 P&P). Many thanks to Maestro267 and Roasted Swan for mentioning it.

It's a very good book and that is great value. It's often much more expensive!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 19, 2017, 05:53:05 AM
I find it strange that, considering how well-served Vaughan Williams is on disc, his music seems to be so rarely programmed in the US (it's a similar situation with, say, Nielsen). In the 10 or so years that I've been attending Pittsburgh Symphony concerts, I can't ever remember them programming a single RVW work, not even the popular The Lark Ascending or Tallis Fantasia. I'd love to see a live performance of one of his symphonies (particularly the 2nd or 6th) but it seems like I may need to travel overseas for that ::) Have other American members had any luck catching a live performance of a major RVW work on our side of the pond?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2017, 06:06:00 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 19, 2017, 05:53:05 AM
I find it strange that, considering how well-served Vaughan Williams is on disc, his music seems to be so rarely programmed in the US (it's a similar situation with, say, Nielsen). In the 10 or so years that I've been attending Pittsburgh Symphony concerts, I can't ever remember them programming a single RVW work, not even the popular The Lark Ascending or Tallis Fantasia. I'd love to see a live performance of one of his symphonies (particularly the 2nd or 6th) but it seems like I may need to travel overseas for that ::) Have other American members had any luck catching a live performance of a major RVW work on our side of the pond?

Ummm...we've got our own problems in the States! You can't even hear Copland, Barber, Schuman, Barber, Ives, Ruggles, etc. If you do hear Copland, it's the usual suspects like Appalachian Spring or Fanfare for the Common Man. God forbid a major US orchestra perform Connotations or Symphonic Ode!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 19, 2017, 06:14:32 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 19, 2017, 05:53:05 AM
I find it strange that, considering how well-served Vaughan Williams is on disc, his music seems to be so rarely programmed in the US (it's a similar situation with, say, Nielsen). In the 10 or so years that I've been attending Pittsburgh Symphony concerts, I can't ever remember them programming a single RVW work, not even the popular The Lark Ascending or Tallis Fantasia. I'd love to see a live performance of one of his symphonies (particularly the 2nd or 6th) but it seems like I may need to travel overseas for that ::) Have other American members had any luck catching a live performance of a major RVW work on our side of the pond?

In past years the 4th Symphony seemed to be popular with recordings by Bernstein/NYPO (plus 3 shorter works) and Stokowski/NYPO, the latter is coupled with No 6 from Mitropoulos. Ormandy recorded the Tallis Fantasia and a couple of shorter works. Of more recent recordings I can only think of Robert Spano and the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra - the Sea Symphony, Fourth Symphony & Dona nobis pacem, 5th Symphony & Tallis Fantasia. Presumably these works got public performances before recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 19, 2017, 06:20:30 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2017, 06:06:00 AM
Ummm...we've got our own problems in the States! You can't even hear Copland, Barber, Schuman, Barber, Ives, Ruggles, etc. If you do hear Copland, it's the usual suspects like Appalachian Spring or Fanfare for the Common Man. God forbid a major US orchestra perform Connotations or Symphonic Ode!

True. It seems that American and British music suffers the most from neglect by American orchestral programming these days. As far as British music goes, the only works that seem to have a firm hold in our repertoire are Elgar's Enigma Variations and Cello Concerto, Holst's The Planets, RVW's The Lark Ascending, Walton's Viola Concerto, and Britten's Young Person's Guide. I consider it a rare event that the Pittsburgh Symphony is playing Elgar's 1st later this season - I am greatly looking forward to that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2017, 06:42:08 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 19, 2017, 06:20:30 AM
True. It seems that American and British music suffers the most from neglect by American orchestral programming these days. As far as British music goes, the only works that seem to have a firm hold in our repertoire are Elgar's Enigma Variations and Cello Concerto, Holst's The Planets, RVW's The Lark Ascending, Walton's Viola Concerto, and Britten's Young Person's Guide. I consider it a rare event that the Pittsburgh Symphony is playing Elgar's 1st later this season - I am greatly looking forward to that.

Walton's Viola Concerto? Really? I've never seen this on a major US orchestra's concert schedule. I'm not saying that it hasn't happened of course, but this seems to be a work we would actually be least likely to hear. As for the other mentioned works, that's a very probable list. I might add RVW's Tallis Fantasia to the list, though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 19, 2017, 06:44:00 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 19, 2017, 06:14:32 AM
In past years the 4th Symphony seemed to be popular with recordings by Bernstein/NYPO (plus 3 shorter works) and Stokowski/NYPO, the latter is coupled with No 6 from Mitropoulos. Ormandy recorded the Tallis Fantasia and a couple of shorter works. Of more recent recordings I can only think of Robert Spano and the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra - the Sea Symphony, Fourth Symphony & Dona nobis pacem, 5th Symphony & Tallis Fantasia. Presumably these works got public performances before recording.

I'd love to hear a recording of Mitropoulos doing No.6 but I think it may be the other way round with Stokowski doing No.6 and Mitropoulos in No.4.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2017, 06:46:08 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 19, 2017, 06:14:32 AM
In past years the 4th Symphony seemed to be popular with recordings by Bernstein/NYPO (plus 3 shorter works) and Stokowski/NYPO, the latter is coupled with No 6 from Mitropoulos. Ormandy recorded the Tallis Fantasia and a couple of shorter works. Of more recent recordings I can only think of Robert Spano and the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra - the Sea Symphony, Fourth Symphony & Dona nobis pacem, 5th Symphony & Tallis Fantasia. Presumably these works got public performances before recording.

We mustn't forget Maurice Abravanel's excellent RVW recordings with the Utah Symphony Orchestra. His performance of Symphony No. 6 is quite powerful.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 19, 2017, 06:48:51 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 19, 2017, 05:53:05 AM
Have other American members had any luck catching a live performance of a major RVW work on our side of the pond?

I've heard performances of A Sea Symphony and 5th Symphony in recent years, at the Grant Park Festival under Carlos Kalmar, who likes to program American and British works. I almost made it to a performance of the 8th Symphony recently, done by one of the suburban orchestras. Also heard Mark Elder do an all VW/Elgar program with the CSO last year, but the main work on that was the Elgar 1st Symphony.

Quote from: kyjo on December 19, 2017, 06:20:30 AM
True. It seems that American and British music suffers the most from neglect by American orchestral programming these days.

A lot depends on the conductor: I can expect someone like Kalmar to play these works, but Muti? Forget it. But yeah, I think the best VW symphonies deserve to get played about as much as the major DSCH or Prokofiev symphonies, and so far that's not the case.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 19, 2017, 06:50:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2017, 06:42:08 AM
Walton's Viola Concerto? Really? I've never seen this on a major US orchestra's concert schedule. I'm not saying that it hasn't happened of course, but this seems to be a work we would actually be least likely to hear. As for the other mentioned works, that's a very probable list. I might add RVW's Tallis Fantasia to the list, though.

I've heard it live once, but I suppose saying it has a "firm hold" in the orchestral repertoire is a bit of a stretch. It does have quite a firm hold in the viola repertoire though, as my violist colleagues are always talking about it ;D I was also lucky enough to witness a moving live performance of Britten's Violin Concerto a couple years ago.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 19, 2017, 06:53:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2017, 06:44:00 AM
I'd love to hear a recording of Mitropoulos doing No.6 but I think it may be the other way round with Stokowski doing No.6 and Mitropoulos in No.4.

You are quite right, I misread the disc details on the back of the case.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 19, 2017, 06:58:35 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 19, 2017, 06:48:51 AM
I've heard performances of A Sea Symphony and 5th Symphony in recent years, at the Grant Park Festival under Carlos Kalmar, who likes to program American and British works. I almost made it to a performance of the 8th Symphony recently, done by one of the suburban orchestras. Also heard Mark Elder do an all VW/Elgar program with the CSO last year, but the main work on that was the Elgar 1st Symphony.

A lot depends on the conductor: I can expect someone like Kalmar to play these works, but Muti? Forget it. But yeah, I think the best VW symphonies deserve to get played about as much as the major DSCH or Prokofiev symphonies, and so far that's not the case.

Yes, Kalmar does seem like one of the more adventurous conductors out there. I happened to be in Chicago when he programmed Frank Martin's In terra pax this summer - a very moving experience.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mahlerian on December 19, 2017, 07:05:19 AM
I heard a performance of Vaughan Williams' Dona Nobis Pacem by the Harrisburg Symphony about ten years ago (my first exposure to the work).  The main piece on the program was Beethoven's Ninth Symphony (an acquaintance was singing in both works).

Orchestras are loath to perform less well-known works by well-known composers.  That's as true for Beethoven or Brahms as it is for 20th century composers, whose works tend to be less well-known to begin with.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 19, 2017, 07:34:43 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on December 19, 2017, 07:05:19 AM

Orchestras are loath to perform less well-known works by well-known composers.  That's as true for Beethoven or Brahms as it is for 20th century composers, whose works tend to be less well-known to begin with.

Yes, I doubt that Beethoven's Cantata on the Accession of the Emperor Leopold II would pack 'em in nowadays. Or even something like that "Christ on the Mount of Olives" oratorio, or for Mahler, Das Klagende Lied - I don't think ever been aware of a performance of those anywhere near me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 19, 2017, 08:35:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2017, 12:35:25 AM
I told you it was good!
:)
VW told Barbirolli that 'A London Symphony' was his favourite of his own symphonies (at least his first eight as he told him before he had composed No.9).

BBC Music Magazine (Christmas issue) reviews three VW CDs including the complete 'Scott of the Antarctic' film music (excellent!) and the Brabbins 1920 London Symphony as well as the Andrew Davis 'Sinfonia Antartica/Concerto for Two Pianos CD. Of the Brabbins 1920 London Symphony the reviewer writes:

'In the 1920 version the serene polyphonic writing for strings in the first movement's introduction is mirrored by a similar balancing passage in the finale's epilogue. Fine as this is, its omission in the final 1933 version makes the epilogue's process of dissolution more concise, and therefore more striking. The post-1920 removal of two superb linking passages in the slow movement is much harder to understand - especially the second of these, with its solo horn, cor anglais, clarinet, and mysteriously dissonant accompanying tremolo strings.'

Thought this was interesting and I see his point about the mirroring of the 'serene polyphonic writing' at the end of the work. However, I'd much rather it was still there and agree with Michael Kennedy whom I seem to recall wrote that the extended cut at the end ushered in the epilogue too abruptly.

'

How does this compare to the earlier Barbirolli/Halle that was Nixa(?) released on EMI coupled with No.8?  I've read somewhere that No.2 is better still than this later remake when Barbirolli was quite ill?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 19, 2017, 01:15:31 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 19, 2017, 08:35:40 AM
How does this compare to the earlier Barbirolli/Halle that was Nixa(?) released on EMI coupled with No.8?  I've read somewhere that No.2 is better still than this later remake when Barbirolli was quite ill?

I don't think his health was too bad in '67 when he made that recording, not judging from the result. An LP transfer of the '57 Pye Nixa recording can be found here.

http://themusicparlour.blogspot.com/2013/08/barbirolli-halle-vaughan-williams.html

What has me curious is the history of Barbirolli's recordings of the 8th. There seems to be a Pye recording with Halle from '56 and a Mercury Living Presence release with Halle dated '58. Could they be the same recording? Did Barbirolli record it separately for Mercury living presence. That would be my holy grail, if it was a real Mercury Living Presence, Wilma Cozart production.

Anyway, I've ordered a Barbirolli Society CD with a recording of the 2nd and 8th. (SJB 1021) I guess I will find out what 8th it is when it shows up. Details on the Barbirolli Society web site are sparse. They separately list a BBC recording of the premier in 1956.

[asin]B002SQC83G[/asin]

http://www.barbirollisociety.co.uk/cd-listings

Anyway, my plan for the immediate future is Vaughan Williams 5th. Barbirolli/EMI, Andrew Davis/Teldec, Andre Previn/Telarc

Another things that shocks me is the extent to which EMI (now Warner) neglected the Boult Vaughan Williams Cycle. Their advertising copy describes it as one the crown jewels of the label, and they are still selling what strikes me as a very poor digital master made in 1986. One of the pinnacles of their catalog, and they can't remaster it from original tapes after 30 years?

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 19, 2017, 02:28:35 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 19, 2017, 08:35:40 AM
How does this compare to the earlier Barbirolli/Halle that was Nixa(?) released on EMI coupled with No.8?  I've read somewhere that No.2 is better still than this later remake when Barbirolli was quite ill?

Quite a few people prefer the earlier performance, especially as the scherzo is not controversially slow like the later EMI recording. I enjoy both but I prefer the warmer and better recorded later version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 19, 2017, 02:29:58 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 19, 2017, 01:15:31 PM
I don't think his health was too bad in '67 when he made that recording, not judging from the result. An LP transfer of the '57 Pye Nixa recording can be found here.

http://themusicparlour.blogspot.com/2013/08/barbirolli-halle-vaughan-williams.html

What has me curious is the history of Barbirolli's recordings of the 8th. There seems to be a Pye recording with Halle from '56 and a Mercury Living Presence release with Halle dated '58. Could they be the same recording? Did Barbirolli record it separately for Mercury living presence. That would be my holy grail, if it was a real Mercury Living Presence, Wilma Cozart production.

Anyway, I've ordered a Barbirolli Society CD with a recording of the 2nd and 8th. (SJB 1021) I guess I will find out what 8th it is when it shows up. Details on the Barbirolli Society web site are sparse. They separately list a BBC recording of the premier in 1956.

[asin]B002SQC83G[/asin]

http://www.barbirollisociety.co.uk/cd-listings

Anyway, my plan for the immediate future is Vaughan Williams 5th. Barbirolli/EMI, Andrew Davis/Teldec, Andre Previn/Telarc

Another things that shocks me is the extent to which EMI (now Warner) neglected the Boult Vaughan Williams Cycle. Their advertising copy describes it as one the crown jewels of the label, and they are still selling what strikes me as a very poor digital master made in 1986. One of the pinnacles of their catalog, and they can't remaster it from original tapes after 30 years?

Re: Symphony 8, one is the studio recording (image above) and the other is a recording of the premiere performance (below).
[asin]B005O0N1IO[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 19, 2017, 02:49:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2017, 02:29:58 PM
Re: Symphony 8, one is the studio recording (image above) and the other is a recording of the premiere performance (below).
[asin]B005O0N1IO[/asin]

To eliminate all ambiguity, this is the Pye release. Studio or live premier? The cover art seems to imply live recording, but the Barbirolli Society attributes the live recording to the BBC, not to Pye. Use of the same photo seems to imply that Pye published a live recording, not a studio recording.

(https://img.discogs.com/i9-YZOW3UG4YgkoWB8wTMq8kdXI=/fit-in/597x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4731357-1373739256-3556.jpeg.jpg)

And is this a separate studio recording by Mercury, or a re-release of a Pye studio recording? The scraps of information I have found don't seem to definitively resolve the question of whether the studio 8 from Barbirolli society is a studio recording by Pye or a studio recording by Mercury.

(https://img.discogs.com/Jt5IRsUmUrNqZ2BtDjKTbdIDW38=/fit-in/459x451/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5442695-1393469066-3889.jpeg.jpg)

This recording is the holy grail, as far as I am concerned.  :)

Note added:

Discogs bibliography lists this Mercury recording as published by Pye outsider the U.S. That's it. The only question is whether the Mercury production team recorded it, or whether it was simply licensed by Mercury.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 19, 2017, 11:14:12 PM
I think that the Pye and Mercury are the same studio recording - the premiere of Symphony 8 was recently issued by the Barbirolli Society - I'm not aware of it ever having been issued before. The PYE is the 'premiere recording' as opposed to the 'premiere performance'. Just to confuse things further I think I have a CD of another live performance by Barbirolli whilst on tour somewhere.
[asin]B003NA7G5G[/asin]
I just misread the 'Special offer' as '1 CD for the price of 3'  :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2017, 01:04:47 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 19, 2017, 02:49:17 PM
To eliminate all ambiguity, this is the Pye release. Studio or live premier? The cover art seems to imply live recording, but the Barbirolli Society attributes the live recording to the BBC, not to Pye. Use of the same photo seems to imply that Pye published a live recording, not a studio recording.

The Pye is a studio recording made on 19 June 1956. Dutton released a remaster a few years ago, using Pye's original master tape and reproducing the Pye LP cover for the inlay of the CD:

(https://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/rvw28back%20cover.jpg)

(https://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/vw28barb.jpg)

The photo and autographs are from the premiere (2 May 1956) but the Pye recorded performance was a month later. The production team was Wilma Cozart and Harold Lawrence producers, Robert Fine balance engineer.

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 19, 2017, 02:49:17 PM
And is this a separate studio recording by Mercury, or a re-release of a Pye studio recording?

I agree with vandermolen: same studio recording. Besides Pye, Mercury and Dutton, it was also released on the Vanguard Everyman label in the 60s. My first classical LP:

(https://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/Vanguard1.jpg)


Sarge



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 20, 2017, 02:47:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2017, 01:04:47 AM
The Pye is a studio recording made on 19 June 1956. Dutton released a remaster a few years ago, using Pye's original master tape and reproducing the Pye LP cover for the inlay of the CD:

(https://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/rvw28back%20cover.jpg)

(https://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/vw28barb.jpg)

The photo and autographs are from the premiere (2 May 1956) but the Pye recorded performance was a month later. The production team was Wilma Cozart and Harold Lawrence producers, Robert Fine balance engineer.

I agree with vandermolen: same studio recording. Besides Pye, Mercury and Dutton, it was also released on the Vanguard Everyman label in the 60s. My first classical LP:

(https://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/Vanguard1.jpg)


Sarge

I love the cover of your first classical LP Sarge.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 20, 2017, 08:28:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2017, 01:04:47 AMThe photo and autographs are from the premiere (2 May 1956) but the Pye recorded performance was a month later. The production team was Wilma Cozart and Harold Lawrence producers, Robert Fine balance engineer.

That's what I was hoping to hear, a Cozart/Fine production. My only question now is whether the disc I ordered on the Barbirolli Society label will be the same quality as the Dutton release. Quite possibly it the same master.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 20, 2017, 12:28:39 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 19, 2017, 02:49:17 PM
To eliminate all ambiguity, this is the Pye release. Studio or live premier? The cover art seems to imply live recording, but the Barbirolli Society attributes the live recording to the BBC, not to Pye. Use of the same photo seems to imply that Pye published a live recording, not a studio recording.

(https://img.discogs.com/i9-YZOW3UG4YgkoWB8wTMq8kdXI=/fit-in/597x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4731357-1373739256-3556.jpeg.jpg)

And is this a separate studio recording by Mercury, or a re-release of a Pye studio recording? The scraps of information I have found don't seem to definitively resolve the question of whether the studio 8 from Barbirolli society is a studio recording by Pye or a studio recording by Mercury.

(https://img.discogs.com/Jt5IRsUmUrNqZ2BtDjKTbdIDW38=/fit-in/459x451/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5442695-1393469066-3889.jpeg.jpg)

This recording is the holy grail, as far as I am concerned.  :)

Note added:

Discogs bibliography lists this Mercury recording as published by Pye outsider the U.S. That's it. The only question is whether the Mercury production team recorded it, or whether it was simply licensed by Mercury.
I love the photo of VW on the Mercury release. Never seen that LP image before. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 21, 2017, 02:06:33 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 20, 2017, 08:28:28 AM
That's what I was hoping to hear, a Cozart/Fine production. My only question now is whether the disc I ordered on the Barbirolli Society label will be the same quality as the Dutton release. Quite possibly it the same master.

I have the album you have ordered SJB 1021 but it is not completely helpful. Symphony No 8 is the Cozart/Lawrence production (19 June 1956) you are hoping for but no details are given in the booklet as to remastering. The disc label says SJB 1021 and 'This compilation& digital remastering [published] 1992 The Barbirolli Society'. Amazon gives the release date of the coupling of Symphonies 2 & 8 as 23 Nov 2009 but one of the covers illustrated above shows No 8 as a separate issue.

The book 'Life with Glorious John' by Evelyn Barbirolli (2002) has a discography but it is organised by the original recording dates. Symphony No 8 is ls listed as recorded 19th June 1956 and the current (at the time) available recording as Dutton CDJSB 1021. The London Symphony (1957) is also listed as CDJSB 1021. It looks like the album you have on order is a 1992 Dutton remastering reissued by The Barbirolli Society.

I was very pleased with the disc when I bought it but haven't listened to it for a while, perhaps I should refresh my memory.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2017, 05:32:19 AM
This is the only RVW Barbirolli recording I own:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51TRAD6dMQL.jpg)

It's pretty good, but I'm not as enthusiastic for it as some people are. I find Barbirolli's Elgar much more interesting from an interpretative point-of-view.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2017, 10:04:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2017, 05:32:19 AM
This is the only RVW Barbirolli recording I own:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51TRAD6dMQL.jpg)

It's pretty good, but I'm not as enthusiastic for it as some people are. I find Barbirolli's Elgar much more interesting from an interpretative point-of-view.
That's interesting John. Certainly I prefer his more controversial later recording of A London Symphony on EMI and Previn's version of No.8. Having said that I still enjoy these earlier recordings, especially as Barbirolli was the dedicatee of No.8 (as with Boult and 'Job').
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2017, 10:11:48 AM
Also of interest and I really like the Benjamin Symphony.
[asin]B009IQA17Y[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2017, 12:43:22 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 21, 2017, 10:11:48 AM
Also of interest and I really like the Benjamin Symphony.
[asin]B009IQA17Y[/asin]

Coincidently, I ordered that a couple of days ago after reading a Gramophone survey of the Fourth by Andrew Achenbach:

There are three further offerings featuring the BBC SO, all very different from each other. The earliest, a broadcast from 1950, finds Sir John Barbirolli at his inspirationally committed and characterful best in an adrenaline-fuelled traversal that adds some five and a half minutes to Vaughan Williams's own account. The first two movements are hugely imposing in their gaunt implacability and very real sense of dread, yet the Scherzo has an invigorating spring in its step as well as a welcome dash of humour (I hear echoes of Satan's gleeful cavortings in Job). The finale, on the other hand, has never sounded more grimly sardonic than here, its cataclysmic closing bars smouldering with indignant rage.


Aschenbach's favorites:

The Top Choice
LPO / Bernard Haitink (Warner Classics)

Bernard Haitink allows Vaughan Williams's rivetingly cogent symphonic drama to unfold without artifice. There's no hidden agenda here – and absolutely no want of fire either! – just toweringly eloquent music-making, superlatively captured by the microphones. Drawing glorious playing from the LPO, the great Dutch maestro has given us a Fourth for the ages.


The Dark Horse 
Toronto SO / Peter Oundjian (TSO Live)

Peter Oundjian outshines many a more celebrated rival in this symphony. His is a consistently illuminating, pleasingly unforced conception, complemented by splendidly articulate and dedicated work from the Toronto band.


The Unnerving Choice
BBC SO / Sir John Barbirolli  (Barbirolli Society)

Barbirolli's remarkably spacious 1950 live performance lives more dangerously than any other in our survey. The bare-faced fury of the symphony's culmination has to be heard to be believed, its final hammer-blow a brutal, sickening thud.

The Historic Choice BBC SO / Ralph Vaughan Williams (Naxos)

The passing years have not dimmed the burning intensity and raw power of Vaughan Williams's own world premiere recording from 1937. Mark Obert-Thorn's transfer for Naxos is exemplary, and this deserves a place in every collection


As much as I love Haitink's VW cycle, Achenbach's Top pick was surprising.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 21, 2017, 12:57:51 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2017, 12:43:22 PM


Aschenbach's favorites:

The Top Choice
LPO / Bernard Haitink (Warner Classics)

Bernard Haitink allows Vaughan Williams's rivetingly cogent symphonic drama to unfold without artifice. There's no hidden agenda here – and absolutely no want of fire either! – just toweringly eloquent music-making, superlatively captured by the microphones. Drawing glorious playing from the LPO, the great Dutch maestro has given us a Fourth for the ages.

Huh...I had Haitink's 4th once upon on a time. I thought it was OK, but nowhere near displacing Berglund, Bernstein or Slatkin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2017, 01:05:11 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 21, 2017, 12:57:51 PM
Huh...I had Haitink's 4th once upon on a time. I thought it was OK, but nowhere near displacing Berglund, Bernstein or Slatkin.

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. I listened to it recently and was not quite bowled over. A fine account, certainly, but not near the top of my favorites.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2017, 01:27:00 PM
Berglund is my favourite and he is very good in No.6 as well - one of the few I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on December 21, 2017, 01:30:15 PM
I have this recording of 2+8 with Barbirolli:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YRJ4AGHML.jpg)

Are they the same performances as those on the JBS issue ?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2017, 01:35:12 PM
Quote from: André on December 21, 2017, 01:30:15 PM
I have this recording of 2+8 with Barbirolli:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YRJ4AGHML.jpg)

Are they the same performances as those on the JBS issue ?

It is the same as 'A London Symphony' Andre. The JBS issued two CDs of him conducting Symphony 8. The classic 'first recording' which is your one but, more recently, they issued a CD of the 'first performance of Symphony 8 which is not the same as the Pye-Nixa/Mercury/Dutton release. All very confusing!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on December 21, 2017, 01:55:55 PM
I see (said the blind man)... 8)

Thanks, Jeffrey !
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 21, 2017, 09:42:23 PM
To add to the confusion (and wishlists, but I own it already): there's also this recording from Lugano (April 11, !961) that some of us may know, too:
(http://78.46.22.212/bildtool/bilder/00000801/800789-1-l-0.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2017, 11:29:12 PM
Quote from: Christo on December 21, 2017, 09:42:23 PM
To add to the confusion (and wishlists, but I own it already): there's also this recording from Lugano (April 11, !961) that some of us may know, too:
(http://78.46.22.212/bildtool/bilder/00000801/800789-1-l-0.jpg)

Not to mention the New York one that I posted above!
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on December 22, 2017, 05:37:43 AM
Albion are due to release the first recording of Beyond My Dream: Music for Greek Plays in 2018

See link https://rvwsociety.com/Beyond-My-Dream/




Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2017, 05:39:09 AM
Tuba Concerto in F minor

(http://www.gatehousepress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/harvest-moon.jpg)

Vaughan Williams wrote his Concerto for Bass Tuba in F minor for Philip Catelinet, the principal tuba player of the London Symphony Orchestra, on the occasion of the LSO's golden jubilee. It was given its premiere by Catelinet, with the LSO under the direction of Sir John Barbirolli, at London's Royal Festival Hall on June 13, 1954.

Vaughan Williams's professed aim was to "give a show" for the tuba, and that he certainly did, exploring the entirety of the bass tuba's range of expression. In size and form the work is not unlike one of Mozart's bigger horn concertos, with major cadenzas coming at the ends of both fast movements. The moods of the solo part vary from a kind of genial rumbustiousness, to an ardent lyricism, and considerable virtuosity is required of the soloist.

The Allegro moderato first movement is tuneful and has an easygoing gait. The central Romanza features a graceful, lovely tune of a folkish cast, on which the tuba rhapsodizes. The final movement is a jaunty and virtuosic Finale (marked Rondo alla tedesca). The Bass Tuba Concerto may not be one of Vaughan Williams' most substantial pieces, but he takes the instrument seriously and provides it an attractive showcase.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's break up the monotony (well, for me anyway) that is Barbirolli's RVW discography and discuss the Tuba Concerto. I picked this work to talk about because it's the only tuba concerto I know and that, within itself, is unique. Of course, the concerto is a fantastic little gem in RVW's oeuvre. Written late in life, it's still surprising, for me, to hear a composer whose inspiration never wavered and, if anything, continued to flourish up until the end. Of the two performances I know of this concerto, the Previn recording with tubist John Fletcher is the best one (the other performance in question is Thomson's on Chandos with tubist Patrick Harrlid). What do you guys think of the work? I know it's not on anyone's list of favorite RVW works (although I could very well be wrong), but it's a lovely, lyrical piece that I enjoy greatly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 22, 2017, 06:25:14 AM
I am not sure how much mileage there is to be got from a discussion of the Tuba Concerto. RVW wisely kept it short but explores the instrument without resorting to silly noises. It is enjoyable but I can't say I have heard it very often. I have just listened to the dedicatee, Philip Catelinet with Barbirolli and the LSO; the only other version I own is Fletcher/Previn/LSO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2017, 06:30:57 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 22, 2017, 06:25:14 AM
I am not sure how much mileage there is to be got from a discussion of the Tuba Concerto. RVW wisely kept it short but explores the instrument without resorting to silly noises. It is enjoyable but I can't say I have heard it very often. I have just listened to the dedicatee, Philip Catelinet with Barbirolli and the LSO; the only other version I own is Fletcher/Previn/LSO.

Oh, I'm most certain that the Tuba Concerto won't lead to a deep, philosophical discussion as it's merely one of RVW's 'light' works. I just felt my post was needed to break up the ongoing Barbirolli RVW discography discussion, which, to be honest, wasn't interesting to me. It seems that there's a lot of discussion on GMG about the recordings themselves and less about the music and what it perhaps means or represents to the listener. This kind of discussion is much more intriguing than just talking about recordings or performances all the time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 22, 2017, 06:39:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2017, 06:30:57 AM
Oh, I'm most certain that the Tuba Concerto won't lead to a deep, philosophical discussion as it's merely one of RVW's 'light' works. I just felt my post was needed to break up the ongoing Barbirolli RVW discography discussion, which, to be honest, wasn't interesting to me. It seems that there's a lot of discussion on GMG about the recordings themselves and less about the music and what it perhaps means or represents to the listener. This kind of discussion is much more intriguing than just talking about recordings or performances all the time.

I didn't want to mention it but when I did a search on Amazon I found a Barbirolli Society recording where the Tuba Concerto is coupled with the 8th Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 22, 2017, 10:25:45 AM
I really like the Tuba Concerto - an underrated work. The slow movement is especially fine and stays with me. Even VW proselytisers like James Day in his fine biography of Vaughan Williams are negative about it ('the jokes fall flat'). I think he is wrong. The Tuba Concerto, like the diminutive and often dismissed Oboe Concerto ('off cuts of the 5th Symphony') and the 'Harmonica Romance' all deserve more attention IMHO. So, all credit to John for featuring it here. I think that the Previn/Fletcher version is the best. Sadly Fletcher, the tuba soloist, died quite young. I remember him being interviewed about it decades ago on TV.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fletcher_(tubist)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 22, 2017, 10:34:03 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2017, 06:30:57 AM
Oh, I'm most certain that the Tuba Concerto won't lead to a deep, philosophical discussion as it's merely one of RVW's 'light' works. I just felt my post was needed to break up the ongoing Barbirolli RVW discography discussion, which, to be honest, wasn't interesting to me. It seems that there's a lot of discussion on GMG about the recordings themselves and less about the music and what it perhaps means or represents to the listener. This kind of discussion is much more intriguing than just talking about recordings or performances all the time.

Actually I find the slow movement quite 'deep' in its way. I've always enjoyed this work and loved the RCA coupling (Previn/LSO) of Symphony 5, the Tuba Concerto and film music 'Three Portraits from the England of Elizabeth'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 22, 2017, 10:50:27 AM
It's been a while since I've heard the Tuba Concerto, but I remember it being a very nice work. As far as VW's concertos go, I really like the (Double) Piano Concerto, which is a particularly underrated work. It's Vaughan Williams at his most Prokofievian, with even shades of Rachmaninoff(!) in the beautiful slow movement. I only know the 2-piano version in the magisterial Vronsky/Babin/Boult recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 22, 2017, 11:10:02 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 22, 2017, 10:50:27 AM
It's been a while since I've heard the Tuba Concerto, but I remember it being a very nice work. As far as VW's concertos go, I really like the (Double) Piano Concerto, which is a particularly underrated work. It's Vaughan Williams at his most Prokofievian, with even shades of Rachmaninoff(!) in the beautiful slow movement. I only know the 2-piano version in the magisterial Vronsky/Babin/Boult recording.

I agree Kyle that the double piano concerto is the finest of VW's concertos (pity he never completed the one for cello). I grew up with the Vronsky/Babin/Boult recording, so remain loyal to that one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 22, 2017, 11:24:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 22, 2017, 11:10:02 AM
I agree Kyle that the double piano concerto is the finest of VW's concertos (pity he never completed the one for cello). I grew up with the Vronsky/Babin/Boult recording, so remain loyal to that one.

Of course, I also deeply regret that VW never completed that cello concerto, but I am grateful to David Matthews for his beautiful realization of existing sketches of the slow movement, which he titled Dark Pastoral (great name). It's available on this very nice Dutton CD:

[asin]B0095Y0CLO[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 22, 2017, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: kyjo on December 22, 2017, 11:24:50 AM
Of course, I also deeply regret that VW never completed that cello concerto, but I am grateful to David Matthews for his beautiful realization of existing sketches of the slow movement, which he titled Dark Pastoral (great name). It's available on this very nice Dutton CD:

[asin]B0095Y0CLO[/asin]
Yes, I have that CD too Kyle.'Dark Pastoral' is indeed a great name and the work is a fine discovery.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2017, 04:58:39 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 22, 2017, 10:25:45 AM
I really like the Tuba Concerto - an underrated work. The slow movement is especially fine and stays with me. Even VW proselytisers like James Day in his fine biography of Vaughan Williams are negative about it ('the jokes fall flat'). I think he is wrong. The Tuba Concerto, like the diminutive and often dismissed Oboe Concerto ('off cuts of the 5th Symphony') and the 'Harmonica Romance' all deserve more attention IMHO. So, all credit to John for featuring it here. I think that the Previn/Fletcher version is the best. Sadly Fletcher, the tuba soloist, died quite young. I remember him being interviewed about it decades ago on TV.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fletcher_(tubist)

Agree with every word. The Oboe Concerto is a fine work. I especially love those wistful moments in this concerto like in the final movement. The remarkable thing about RVW is even though I wasn't born in England, I can feel this country in every measure. I do have some English ancestry of course, but he's one of those rare composers that hit me right in the face on my very first-listen of his music. I was completely emotionally invested in this music from the beginning.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 22, 2017, 10:37:03 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 22, 2017, 10:25:45 AM
The slow movement is especially fine and stays with me.
Also try it in its version for cello and orchestra, here by Julian Lloyd Webber:
https://www.youtube.com/v/Luk9Nd-Du-U
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 22, 2017, 11:49:38 PM
Quote from: Christo on December 22, 2017, 10:37:03 PM
Also try it in its version for cello and orchestra, here by Julian Lloyd Webber:
https://www.youtube.com/v/Luk9Nd-Du-U

How extraordinary! Thank you very much for posting this Johan. I have already ordered the CD   ::). Fortunately I found a second hand copy going cheaply and as it was in support of the 'Air Ambulance' I felt less guilty about doing so. Did VW sanction a version for cello? It works well and the rest of the programme looks interesting - so, thanks again.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 22, 2017, 11:59:21 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2017, 04:58:39 PM
Agree with every word. The Oboe Concerto is a fine work. I especially love those wistful moments in this concerto like in the final movement. The remarkable thing about RVW is even though I wasn't born in England, I can feel this country in every measure. I do have some English ancestry of course, but he's one of those rare composers that hit me right in the face on my very first-listen of his music. I was completely emotionally invested in this music from the beginning.

My experience was much the same John and you certainly don't need to be born in England to appreciate the 'English' qualities of his music. In fact don't they say that creative artists are often not appreciated in their own countries. After VW died there was quite a strong reaction against his music, which was perhaps inevitable considering the changing trajectory of music at that time. Britten was especially hostile to VW's music. You mentioned how composers like Diamond, Schumann, Harris and even Copland I think don't get performed very often in the USA. It was a miracle that I ever heard Moeran's Symphony performed here, not to mention two of Bax's symphonies. As a school pupil in the early 70s I had a Saturday job in the record department of WH Smiths in Earl's Court, London. I remember playing some VW once and a man came over to ask what I was playing and he couldn't believe how beautiful it was and that he had never heard of the composer. The man was Spanish I remember. I think it's just a case of having the opportunity of being exposed to the music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2017, 05:30:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 22, 2017, 11:59:21 PM
My experience was much the same John and you certainly don't need to be born in England to appreciate the 'English' qualities of his music. In fact don't they say that creative artists are often not appreciated in their own countries. After VW died there was quite a strong reaction against his music, which was perhaps inevitable considering the changing trajectory of music at that time. Britten was especially hostile to VW's music. You mentioned how composers like Diamond, Schuman, Harris and even Copland I think don't get performed very often in the USA. It was a miracle that I ever heard Moeran's Symphony performed here, not to mention two of Bax's symphonies. As a school pupil in the early 70s I had a Saturday job in the record department of WH Smiths in Earl's Court, London. I remember playing some VW once and a man came over to ask what I was playing and he couldn't believe how beautiful it was and that he had never heard of the composer. The man was Spanish I remember. I think it's just a case of having the opportunity of being exposed to the music.

That's very true, Jeffrey. Good music transcends borders and finds a way into our hearts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 23, 2017, 08:22:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 22, 2017, 11:49:38 PM
How extraordinary! Thank you very much for posting this Johan. I have already ordered the CD   ::). Fortunately I found a second hand copy going cheaply and as it was in support of the 'Air Ambulance' I felt less guilty about doing so. Did VW sanction a version for cello? It works well and the rest of the programme looks interesting - so, thanks again.  :)
I'm not sure, but I think this version for cello is by RVW himself. It may console Kyle a bit  :D that we actually can compile an alternative 'cello concerto' out of his three pieces for cello and orchestra:
1. Dark Pastoral (from the unfinished cello concerto, 1943) [11:00]
2. Romanza (from the Bass Tuba concerto, 1954)  [5:10]
3. Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes (1929, written for Pablo Casals) [8:15]
https://www.youtube.com/v/E5tquD727ik  https://www.youtube.com/v/Luk9Nd-Du-U https://www.youtube.com/v/aDInLw2MwsA

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 23, 2017, 10:23:02 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 23, 2017, 08:22:38 AM
I'm not sure, but I think this version for cello is by RVW himself. It may console Kyle a bit  :D that we actually can compile an alternative 'cello concerto' out of his three pieces for cello and orchestra:
1. Dark Pastoral (from the unfinished cello concerto, 1943) [11:00]
2. Romanza (from the Bass Tuba concerto, 1954)  [5:10]
3. Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes (1929, written for Pablo Casals) [8:15]
https://www.youtube.com/v/E5tquD727ik  https://www.youtube.com/v/Luk9Nd-Du-U https://www.youtube.com/v/aDInLw2MwsA

Excellent idea Johan! You should copyright this and get all the royalties.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 23, 2017, 10:42:05 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 23, 2017, 08:22:38 AM
I'm not sure, but I think this version for cello is by RVW himself. It may console Kyle a bit  :D that we actually can compile an alternative 'cello concerto' out of his three pieces for cello and orchestra:
1. Dark Pastoral (from the unfinished cello concerto, 1943) [11:00]
2. Romanza (from the Bass Tuba concerto, 1954)  [5:10]
3. Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes (1929, written for Pablo Casals) [8:15]
https://www.youtube.com/v/E5tquD727ik  https://www.youtube.com/v/Luk9Nd-Du-U https://www.youtube.com/v/aDInLw2MwsA

Ah, excellent! :) I wasn't aware of the cello arrangement of the slow movement from the Tuba Concerto, and I've yet to listen to the Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 23, 2017, 10:45:38 AM
Another one of my favorite VW works which doesn't seem to get discussed much is the Phantasy Quintet. What a beautiful work! I especially love the energetic second movement with its catchy ostinato in 7/4 time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 23, 2017, 11:12:52 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 23, 2017, 10:45:38 AM
Another one of my favorite VW works which doesn't seem to get discussed much is the Phantasy Quintet. What a beautiful work! I especially love the energetic second movement with its catchy ostinato in 7/4 time.

I agree and also a big thumbs up from me for the 'Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes' - especially as I live in Sussex!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2017, 04:24:49 PM
Quote from: kyjo on December 23, 2017, 10:45:38 AM
Another one of my favorite VW works which doesn't seem to get discussed much is the Phantasy Quintet. What a beautiful work! I especially love the energetic second movement with its catchy ostinato in 7/4 time.

RVW's chamber music doesn't get discussed enough! Yes, the Phantasy Quintet is fantastic. I absolutely adore the Romance for viola and piano. This may (or may not) be viewed as a 'minor' work, but I think it's gorgeous from start to finish. The Nash Ensemble's recordings of the chamber music on Hyperion are indispensable.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 23, 2017, 11:23:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2017, 04:24:49 PM
RVW's chamber music doesn't get discussed enough! Yes, the Phantasy Quintet is fantastic. I absolutely adore the Romance for viola and piano. This may (or may not) be viewed as a 'minor' work, but I think it's gorgeous from start to finish. The Nash Ensemble's recordings of the chamber music on Hyperion are indispensable.

The late craggy Violin Sonata is my favourite VW chamber work and I also like the String Quartet 2 'For Jean on her Birthday' with its links to the 6th Symphony. Today would be a good day to play 'Hodie' with its wonderfully inspiriting conclusion or the 'Fantasia on Christmas Carols'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 24, 2017, 12:55:30 AM
The cynic in me thinks that, given the state of the world, Dona nobis pacem would be a better choice. It is not very cheery but it does end with a glorious statement of the Christmas message.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2017, 06:06:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 23, 2017, 11:23:27 PM
The late craggy Violin Sonata is my favourite VW chamber work and I also like the String Quartet 2 'For Jean on her Birthday' with its links to the 6th Symphony. Today would be a good day to play 'Hodie' with its wonderfully inspiriting conclusion or the 'Fantasia on Christmas Carols'.

Yes, the Violin Sonata is a wonderful work, too! I need to revisit String Quartet No. 2. I'll be giving Hodie a spin tonight. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 24, 2017, 07:04:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 24, 2017, 06:06:52 AMYes, the Violin Sonata is a wonderful work, too! I need to revisit String Quartet No. 2. I'll be giving Hodie a spin tonight. 8)
Hodie is big fun, an octogenarian enjoying Christmas and even composing some very moving 'carols' for the most intimate moments of the spectacle. Attended a live performance, once. But the ultimate Vaughan Williams' Christmas Eve is of course this CD:
(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH10385.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2017, 07:54:45 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 24, 2017, 07:04:51 AM
Hodie is big fun, an octogenarian enjoying Christmas and even composing some very moving 'carols' for the most intimate moments of the spectacle. Attended a live performance, once. But the ultimate Vaughan Williams' Christmas Eve is of course this CD:
(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH10385.jpg)

Yep, that's a great disc indeed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 24, 2017, 08:35:35 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 24, 2017, 12:55:30 AM
The cynic in me thinks that, given the state of the world, Dona nobis pacem would be a better choice. It is not very cheery but it does end with a glorious statement of the Christmas message.

I rather agree with you Geoff and DNP is one of my favourite VW works as well - would be a good choice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 24, 2017, 08:37:39 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 24, 2017, 07:04:51 AM
Hodie is big fun, an octogenarian enjoying Christmas and even composing some very moving 'carols' for the most intimate moments of the spectacle. Attended a live performance, once. But the ultimate Vaughan Williams' Christmas Eve is of course this CD:
(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH10385.jpg)

Great that you have heard 'Hodie' live - something I never have. The Milton setting at the end is one of my favourite moments in all of VW's music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 24, 2017, 08:39:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 24, 2017, 06:06:52 AM
Yes, the Violin Sonata is a wonderful work, too! I need to revisit String Quartet No. 2. I'll be giving Hodie a spin tonight. 8)

This is the perfect night to listen to 'Hodie' John - especially in the Willcocks recording. Hope you enjoy it!
😀
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2017, 08:57:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 24, 2017, 08:39:28 AM
This is the perfect night to listen to 'Hodie' John - especially in the Willcocks recording. Hope you enjoy it!
😀

Thanks, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2017, 08:26:31 PM
I hate to bring a negative report but I did not enjoy Hodie at all. For me, the musical ideas didn't add up to a satisfying whole. No fault of the performers, of course, who were all excellent (Janet Baker, Willcocks, etc.). It just wasn't 'my thing'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on December 25, 2017, 11:50:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 24, 2017, 08:26:31 PM
I hate to bring a negative report but I did not enjoy Hodie at all. For me, the musical ideas didn't add up to a satisfying whole. No fault of the performers, of course, who were all excellent (Janet Baker, Willcocks, etc.). It just wasn't 'my thing'.

The same happens on me. Just yesterday I played Hodie, and I wasn't particularly impressed. Despite there are some interesting moments, I think the work lacks something for being completely succesful.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 25, 2017, 01:51:40 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on December 25, 2017, 11:50:28 AM
The same happens on me. Just yesterday I played Hodie, and I wasn't particularly impressed. Despite there are some interesting moments, I think the work lacks something for being completely succesful.

I think it lacks that certain magic you hear in works like Flos Campi or Symphony No. 6. You can tell who the composer is right out of the gate, but this doesn't always mean the music is going to be to your liking. This is pretty much my experience with Hodie.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on December 25, 2017, 05:21:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 25, 2017, 01:51:40 PM
I think it lacks that certain magic you hear in works like Flos Campi or Symphony No. 6. You can tell who the composer is right out of the gate, but this doesn't always mean the music is going to be to your liking. This is pretty much my experience with Hodie.

I prefer Dona nobis pacem or Sancta Civitas the most to Hodie. Of course, there are much more good works than regular ones in the Vaughan Williams's oeuvre.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 25, 2017, 06:23:41 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on December 25, 2017, 05:21:09 PM
I prefer Dona nobis pacem or Sancta Civitas the most to Hodie. Of course, there are much more good works than regular ones in the Vaughan Williams's oeuvre.

Absolutely. Same with me, too. Love both of those works you mentioned. I'll throw in Five Mystical Songs for good measure. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 25, 2017, 08:10:43 PM
I just made a GREAT discovery tonight - VW's early (1903) Piano Quintet in C minor, which is written for the same instrumentation as Schubert's Trout Quintet. I was expecting sort of a Brahms knock-off, but this work is one of considerable inspiration and originality and is quite predictive of the composer's mature style. The whole piece is filled with beauty and passion, especially the touching, hymn-like slow movement. It's been recorded by Hyperion and Naxos (I listened to the Naxos recording, which is excellent). Highly recommended!!

https://youtu.be/3na3sPQXmHA (https://youtu.be/3na3sPQXmHA)

[asin]B00J587KLK[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 25, 2017, 11:23:22 PM
I've been listening to a few Vaughan Williams pieces that were previously unknown to me, the Concerto for String Orchestra, The Concerto for Oboe and the Piano Concerto (and the Lark Ascending, which is not unfamiliar). All satisfying, especially the Concerto for String Orchestra and the Piano Concerto, which has a unique structure. The third movement is particularly attractive to me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 26, 2017, 12:20:57 AM
'Hodie' saw the beginning of the reaction against Vaughan Williams. Yes, it is not as strong a work as Sancta Civitas or Dona Nobis Pacem. Having said that I still like it and find the setting of Milton at the end to be wonderfully inspiriting. I like the 'Three Kings' episode to words by Ursula and the setting of Hardy's 'Oxen' but it certainly is not the work to win converts to VW. By 'Concerto for String Orchestra' I think you mean 'Concerto Grosso' which is indeed a fine work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 26, 2017, 12:34:59 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 25, 2017, 08:10:43 PM
I just made a GREAT discovery tonight - VW's early (1903) Piano Quintet in C minor, which is written for the same instrumentation as Schubert's Trout Quintet. I was expecting sort of a Brahms knock-off, but this work is one of considerable inspiration and originality and is quite predictive of the composer's mature style. The whole piece is filled with beauty and passion, especially the touching, hymn-like slow movement. It's been recorded by Hyperion and Naxos (I listened to the Naxos recording, which is excellent). Highly recommended!!

https://youtu.be/3na3sPQXmHA (https://youtu.be/3na3sPQXmHA)

[asin]B00J587KLK[/asin]

That is a very good CD. A great discovery for me as well Kyle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 26, 2017, 01:20:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 24, 2017, 08:26:31 PM
I hate to bring a negative report but I did not enjoy Hodie at all. For me, the musical ideas didn't add up to a satisfying whole. No fault of the performers, of course, who were all excellent (Janet Baker, Willcocks, etc.). It just wasn't 'my thing'.

Sadly, I have to agree. I only have the work on LP (Willcocks) and while I must have listened to it once it seemed like the first time when I listened to it yesterday. Some of the solo numbers are very beautiful but the Narration outstayed its welcome; the choruses sounded like RVW on auto-pilot. The 8th and 9th Symphonies were still to come so I don't think RVW was exhausted; perhaps it is just me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 26, 2017, 05:26:36 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 26, 2017, 01:20:13 AM
Sadly, I have to agree. I only have the work on LP (Willcocks) and while I must have listened to it once it seemed like the first time when I listened to it yesterday. Some of the solo numbers are very beautiful but the Narration outstayed its welcome; the choruses sounded like RVW on auto-pilot. The 8th and 9th Symphonies were still to come so I don't think RVW was exhausted; perhaps it is just me.

"RWV on auto-pilot". This is very much how I felt about the whole work. Every great composer has works that don't appeal to us and this was one of them for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 26, 2017, 06:28:34 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 26, 2017, 12:20:57 AMBy 'Concerto for String Orchestra' I think you mean 'Concerto Grosso' which is indeed a fine work.

Right, Concerto Grossso for String Orchestra, as it is called in my recording (Thomson/Chandos). The writing for strings brings to mind the Tallis Fantasia, which  has been a favorite of mine since hearing the Barbirolli recording. The writing for oboe in the oboe concerto did not really captivate me but I enjoyed the underlying music for string orchestra. The Piano concerto is a work that I think I want to hear in another recording, not because Thomson/Shelley is anything but fine, but because it is a work that has captured my interest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 26, 2017, 06:29:58 AM
Speaking of the Concerto Grosso for String Orchestra, I also like the Partita for Double String Orchestra. RVW certainly knew how to write beautifully for stringed instruments.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 26, 2017, 06:33:31 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 25, 2017, 08:10:43 PM
I just made a GREAT discovery tonight - VW's early (1903) Piano Quintet in C minor, which is written for the same instrumentation as Schubert's Trout Quintet. I was expecting sort of a Brahms knock-off, but this work is one of considerable inspiration and originality and is quite predictive of the composer's mature style. The whole piece is filled with beauty and passion, especially the touching, hymn-like slow movement. It's been recorded by Hyperion and Naxos (I listened to the Naxos recording, which is excellent). Highly recommended!!

https://youtu.be/3na3sPQXmHA (https://youtu.be/3na3sPQXmHA)

[asin]B00J587KLK[/asin]

I'm not sure why you were expected a Brahms 'knock-off'? That's a strange thing to expect from RVW. :-\ Anyway, the Piano Quintet is a pretty good work. I don't own that recording you posted, but I do have it in this set, which is quite good:

(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571173818.png)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 26, 2017, 07:11:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2017, 06:33:31 AM
I'm not sure why you were expected a Brahms 'knock-off'? That's a strange thing to expect from RVW. :-\ Anyway, the Piano Quintet is a pretty good work. I don't own that recording you posted, but I do have it in this set, which is quite good:

(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571173818.png)

Well, a review I had read of the Piano Quintet compared it to Brahms, but his influence seemed less prevalent to me than to that reviewer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 26, 2017, 07:12:46 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 26, 2017, 12:34:59 AM
That is a very good CD. A great discovery for me as well Kyle.

I'm thoroughly looking forward to listening to the rest of it! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 26, 2017, 07:44:23 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 26, 2017, 07:11:16 AM
Well, a review I had read of the Piano Quintet compared it to Brahms, but his influence seemed less prevalent to me than to that reviewer.

The reviewer must have been hitting some heavy drugs then, because it's not influenced by Brahms.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 26, 2017, 07:47:59 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2017, 07:44:23 AM
The reviewer must have been hitting some heavy drugs then, because it's not influenced by Brahms.

;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on December 26, 2017, 10:50:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 26, 2017, 12:20:57 AM
'Hodie' saw the beginning of the reaction against Vaughan Williams. Yes, it is not as strong a work as Sancta Civitas or Dona Nobis Pacem. Having said that I still like it and find the setting of Milton at the end to be wonderfully inspiriting. I like the 'Three Kings' episode to words by Ursula and the setting of Hardy's 'Oxen' but it certainly is not the work to win converts to VW. By 'Concerto for String Orchestra' I think you mean 'Concerto Grosso' which is indeed a fine work.

I agree with you about the Three Kings episode and the inspiriting ending of Hodie. The highlights of this work IMHO. And yes, the Concerto grosso ranks very high for me too. As MI said, Vaughan Williams had an incredible talent to compose music for strings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 07, 2018, 12:32:23 PM
Have been listening to Berglund's Bournemouth SO version of Symphony 6. One of the (very) few to get it right IMHO. A wonderfully gripping performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Daverz on January 07, 2018, 03:33:31 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 07, 2018, 12:32:23 PM
Have been listening to Berglund's Bournemouth SO version of Symphony 6. One of the (very) few to get it right IMHO. A wonderfully gripping performance.

Added to my Tidal queue. 

https://tidal.com/album/2954137

My current favorite is Boult/EMI.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 07, 2018, 10:26:31 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 07, 2018, 03:33:31 PM
Added to my Tidal queue. 

https://tidal.com/album/2954137

My current favorite is Boult/EMI.

That double album is excellent as Berglund's version of Symphony 4 was the top choice on BBC 'Building a Library'. I like Gibson's more controversial No.5 and Silvestri's Tallis Fantasia from Winchester Cathedral is one of the most atmospheric. I listened to Berglund's No.6 from the CD in the Berglund boxed set where it is coupled with Bliss's 'Miracle in the Gorbals' - a great disc as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 09, 2018, 06:11:07 AM
If you like or want to discover VW's chamber music or songs you should enjoy this - a lovely compilation with some interesting arrangements:
[asin]B077BLVFWH[/asin]
I played the whole disc through and then had to repeat the experience.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2018, 06:16:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 09, 2018, 06:11:07 AM
If you like or want to discover VW's chamber music or songs you should enjoy this - a lovely compilation with some interesting arrangements:
[asin]B077BLVFWH[/asin]
I played the whole disc through and then had to repeat the experience.
:)

I made this post back in early December:

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2017, 12:56:31 PM
Coming in January:

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH10969.jpg)

https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%2010969

After I made the post, I thought well that seemed like it was 'for nothing', but glad you picked up the recording, Jeffrey, and, apparently enjoy it. I probably will, too, as I don't own any performances of Songs Of Travel.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2018, 06:22:57 AM
Is any post on GMG truly 'for nothing'?  8)  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 09, 2018, 06:26:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 09, 2018, 06:16:51 AM
I made this post back in early December:

After I made the post, I thought well that seemed like it was 'for nothing', but glad you picked up the recording, Jeffrey, and, apparently enjoy it. I probably will, too, as I don't own any performances of Songs Of Travel.
Sorry I didn't respond at the time John but thank you for alerting me to it. The darkly moving 'Romance' of uncertain date for Viola and Piano was definitely a highlight for me. I like the Songs of Travel very much. They were later orchestrated (not by VW) but this is as good a performance of the original version than you are likely to find. Altogether a lovely disc - ideal late-night listening I think. The gentle Orpheus and his Lute is one of my favourite VW songs.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2018, 06:29:51 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 09, 2018, 06:22:57 AM
Is any post on GMG truly 'for nothing'?  8)  0:)

:P Zing!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2018, 06:32:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 09, 2018, 06:26:07 AM
Sorry I didn't respond at the time John but thank you for alerting me to it. The darkly moving 'Romance' of uncertain date for Viola and Piano was definitely a highlight for me. I like the Songs of Travel very much. They were later orchestrated (not by VW) but this is as good a performance of the original version than you are likely to find. Altogether a lovely disc - ideal late-night listening I think. The gentle Orpheus and his Lute is one of my favourite VW songs.

No worries, Jeffrey. 8) Yes, the Romance for viola & piano is a beautiful work. I've got two performances of it --- one on ECM (w/ Kashkashian/Levin) and on Hyperion (The Nash Ensemble). For me, the Nash's performance is my favorite of the two.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 09, 2018, 07:08:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 09, 2018, 06:32:31 AM
No worries, Jeffrey. 8) Yes, the Romance for viola & piano is a beautiful work. I've got two performances of it --- one on ECM (w/ Kashkashian/Levin) and on Hyperion (The Nash Ensemble). For me, the Nash's performance is my favorite of the two.

Ah yes, I knew I'd heard it before and I also have that fine Nash version John.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on January 09, 2018, 08:20:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 09, 2018, 07:08:13 AM
Ah yes, I knew I'd heard it before and I also have that fine Nash version John.

There is also a version of the Viola Romance for full orchestra by Stephen Bell on Dutton that I can recommend as well:

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7216
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 09, 2018, 01:26:26 PM
Quote from: Oates on January 09, 2018, 08:20:48 AM
There is also a version of the Viola Romance for full orchestra by Stephen Bell on Dutton that I can recommend as well:

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7216
Thank you! And I have that recording, purchased for the fine Stanley Bate work. So, must listen to the VW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 09, 2018, 02:37:48 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 09, 2018, 01:26:26 PMSo, must listen to the VW.
You must WHAT??!!??
Immediately, how DARE you neglect such a fine piece for so long.  8)  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 09, 2018, 02:43:23 PM
Quote from: Christo on January 09, 2018, 02:37:48 PM
You must WHAT??!!??
Immediately, how DARE you neglect such a fine piece for so long.  8)  :D
Keep calm  ;)

I must have heard it when I originally bought the CD but I think that I was very much focused on the Stanley Bate (my first encounter with his music).

So, let me rephrase that:

'So, must listen to the VW AGAIN'.

Hope that clarifies the situation.

I need a drink.

8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 10, 2018, 12:10:53 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 22, 2017, 10:37:03 PM
Also try it in its version for cello and orchestra, here by Julian Lloyd Webber:
https://www.youtube.com/v/Luk9Nd-Du-U
I have listened a lot to this work since Johan kindly posted it. The booklet notes for the (very enjoyable) CD state that VW made the arrangement for cello of the 'Romanza' from his Tuba Concerto himself. The CD has been a nice discovery, one of the few that my wife enjoys as well. Other highlights are the 'Invocation' by Holst and Percy Grainger's 'Youthful Rapture' although I enjoyed the whole CD. My cheap second-hand copy was signed by the cellist - so, thank you Johan!
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 10, 2018, 12:26:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 10, 2018, 12:10:53 AMMy cheap second-hand copy was signed by the cellist - so, thank you Johan!
:)
Since when is Lloyd Webber only signing cheap second-hand copies?  ;) Many thanks, 'discovered' this CD myself only two years ago & enjoyed it very much too. We'll toast on it in a pub in Sussex, coming May.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 10, 2018, 02:25:36 AM
Quote from: Christo on January 10, 2018, 12:26:36 AM
Since when is Lloyd Webber only signing cheap second-hand copies?  ;) Many thanks, 'discovered' this CD myself only two years ago & enjoyed it very much too. We'll toast on it in a pub in Sussex, coming May.  8)

I think he signed the original as it is inscribed 'To Ernie...'  8)

That Cyril Scott work at the end of the CD with the bagpipe imitation 'reel' is a hoot!

Yes, looking forward to May.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 10, 2018, 03:38:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 10, 2018, 02:25:36 AM
I think he signed the original as it is inscribed 'To Ernie...'  8)

How strange that he thought your name was Ernie!

(j/k)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 10, 2018, 04:16:28 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 10, 2018, 03:38:36 AM
How strange that he thought your name was Ernie!

(j/k)

I need another drink now...

8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 21, 2018, 08:04:41 AM
Hooray, Grant Park Festival just published its schedule, we're getting VW #4 this year:

http://www.grantparkmusicfestival.com/2018season/prokofievwilliams
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2018, 02:26:12 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 21, 2018, 08:04:41 AM
Hooray, Grant Park Festival just published its schedule, we're getting VW #4 this year:

http://www.grantparkmusicfestival.com/2018season/prokofievwilliams (http://www.grantparkmusicfestival.com/2018season/prokofievwilliams)


Très cool!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on January 28, 2018, 02:37:44 AM
Quote from: Oates on December 22, 2017, 05:37:43 AM
Albion are due to release the first recording of Beyond My Dream: Music for Greek Plays in 2018

See link https://rvwsociety.com/Beyond-My-Dream/

Has anyone heard this yet? I must say I'm tempted by its description as "more than an hour of unknown but lovely music, from the early maturity of Vaughan Williams, now recorded for the first time."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 28, 2018, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Oates on January 28, 2018, 02:37:44 AM
Has anyone heard this yet? I must say I'm tempted by its description as "more than an hour of unknown but lovely music, from the early maturity of Vaughan Williams, now recorded for the first time."
Not yet but the samples sound good:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams-Sinfonia-ALBCD033/dp/B077MT9GYH/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1517196610&sr=1-1&keywords=vaughan+williams+beyond+my+dream
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 31, 2018, 05:46:21 AM
Quote from: Oates on January 28, 2018, 02:37:44 AM
Has anyone heard this yet? I must say I'm tempted by its description as "more than an hour of unknown but lovely music, from the early maturity of Vaughan Williams, now recorded for the first time."

I agree with the description having just listened to the CD right through. What surprised me was how characteristic the music was of later VW scores. Parts reminded me of 'Riders to the Sea' and 'Pilgrim's Progress'. There's quite a lot of spoken accompaniment but that was not a problem for me and really added to my interest. In all a rather beautiful and moving CD. I'm very pleased to have bought it thanks to Oates's enquiry.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on February 01, 2018, 08:06:02 AM
Just ordered this myself - the completist in me would might have won out eventually in any case, but it does sound like a top drawer RVW effort.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 02, 2018, 05:55:47 AM
Quote from: Oates on February 01, 2018, 08:06:02 AM
Just ordered this myself - the completist in me would might have won out eventually in any case, but it does sound like a top drawer RVW effort.

I'm sure that you won't be disappointed - in some respects, I think, it is one of the most interesting and unusual of those Albion releases. Let us know what you make of it. I want to hear it again myself over the weekend.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 02, 2018, 06:33:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 02, 2018, 05:55:47 AMI'm sure that you won't be disappointed - in some respects, I think, it is one of the most interesting and unusual of those Albion releases. Let us know what you make of it. I want to hear it again myself over the weekend.
Agreed. Gave it a first spin this week - it's available on Spotify since a couple of days - and am positively surprised.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 06, 2018, 09:33:27 AM
I've always considered Boult to be my ideal for VW's 5th Symphony, but I recently stumbled by chance upon the recording by Carlos Kalmar with the Oregon SO, dating from 2012.  Surprisingly the timings for all 4 movements between Boult/EMI and this recording are very similar indeed, however that said the overall approaches could hardly be more contrasted and I do, against all my instincts, really like the newer recording.

Boult of course is fully buttoned-down and the music unrolls without any untoward fuss or incident, all climaxes supressed and dynamics smoothed in the interests of maintaining the stiff upper lip.
The engineering was highly regarded in its day but does sound a bit bloodless by current tastes.
Under Kalmar by contrast the music really wears its heart on its sleeve with every moment wrung out for all its worth.  The Romanza in Kalmar's hands is quite exhausting.
The engineering is exceptionally fine, one of the best orchestral recordings I've heard, and the orchestra seem on good form with the various soloists never putting a foot wrong.
The 5th is coupled with Britten's Four Sea Interludes, and Elgar's Cockaigne.
The same team have also recorded VW's 4th, I haven't listened to this but it's coupled with Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem and that is again IMHO a strong front runner in its field (though competing with Britten's own recording which is hard to beat).

[asin]B009FA3T5O[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 06, 2018, 09:50:04 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 06, 2018, 09:33:27 AM
I've always considered Boult to be my ideal for VW's 5th Symphony, but I recently stumbled by chance upon the recording by Carlos Kalmar with the Oregon SO, dating from 2012.  Surprisingly the timings for all 4 movements between Boult/EMI and this recording are very similar indeed, however that said the overall approaches could hardly be more contrasted and I do, against all my instincts, really like the newer recording.

Boult of course is fully buttoned-down and the music unrolls without any untoward fuss or incident, all climaxes supressed and dynamics smoothed in the interests of maintaining the stiff upper lip.
The engineering was highly regarded in its day but does sound a bit bloodless by current tastes.
Under Kalmar by contrast the music really wears its heart on its sleeve with every moment wrung out for all its worth.  The Romanza in Kalmar's hands is quite exhausting.
The engineering is exceptionally fine, one of the best orchestral recordings I've heard, and the orchestra seem on good form with the various soloists never putting a foot wrong.
The 5th is coupled with Britten's Four Sea Interludes, and Elgar's Cockaigne.
The same team have also recorded VW's 4th, I haven't listened to this but it's coupled with Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem and that is again IMHO a strong front runner in its field (though competing with Britten's own recoding which is hard to beat).

[asin]B009FA3T5O[/asin]

Very interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 06, 2018, 09:53:26 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 06, 2018, 09:33:27 AM[asin]B009FA3T5O[/asin]

Elegant cover art, in which they have reduced clutter by eliminating superfluous information, such as what music was actually recorded. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 06, 2018, 10:38:33 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 06, 2018, 09:33:27 AM

The same team have also recorded VW's 4th,

I heard Kalmar do the 5th at Grant Park a few years ago, and I expect to hear him do the 4th this summer. I recall the 5th as sounding fairly Boult-ish in the first 3 movements, but having a lot more energy in the finale, which I liked.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 06, 2018, 02:20:03 PM
I've not commented on the 4th because it's not music I enjoy, but this is the album.  The Sinfonia da Requiem as I say is very fine partly due to the very close, detailed and involving recording technique, which I would expect to also benefit the 4th.  This issue also includes fragments by Ives and Adams.

[asin]B005MQJLGQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on March 06, 2018, 03:13:48 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 06, 2018, 09:33:27 AM
I've always considered Boult to be my ideal for VW's 5th Symphony, but I recently stumbled by chance upon the recording by Carlos Kalmar with the Oregon SO, dating from 2012.  Surprisingly the timings for all 4 movements between Boult/EMI and this recording are very similar indeed, however that said the overall approaches could hardly be more contrasted and I do, against all my instincts, really like the newer recording.

Boult of course is fully buttoned-down and the music unrolls without any untoward fuss or incident, all climaxes supressed and dynamics smoothed in the interests of maintaining the stiff upper lip.
The engineering was highly regarded in its day but does sound a bit bloodless by current tastes.
Under Kalmar by contrast the music really wears its heart on its sleeve with every moment wrung out for all its worth.  The Romanza in Kalmar's hands is quite exhausting.
The engineering is exceptionally fine, one of the best orchestral recordings I've heard, and the orchestra seem on good form with the various soloists never putting a foot wrong.
The 5th is coupled with Britten's Four Sea Interludes, and Elgar's Cockaigne.
The same team have also recorded VW's 4th, I haven't listened to this but it's coupled with Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem and that is again IMHO a strong front runner in its field (though competing with Britten's own recording which is hard to beat).

[asin]B009FA3T5O[/asin]

Thanks for bringing this release to my attention - it had slipped under my radar. It's always great to hear non-British conductors and orchestras in Vaughan Williams (and other British composers), since they often bring a more fiery and extroverted approach to the music than their British counterparts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 06, 2018, 03:29:38 PM
I have to remind myself of how many recordings I already have of this material...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 07, 2018, 12:12:52 AM
That's why I didn't itemise the Ives fragment above - after all, how many recordings of The Unanswered Question does one person need?  (Don't answer that)

Quote from: kyjo on March 06, 2018, 03:13:48 PM
Thanks for bringing this release to my attention - it had slipped under my radar. It's always great to hear non-British conductors and orchestras in Vaughan Williams (and other British composers), since they often bring a more fiery and extroverted approach to the music than their British counterparts.

Indeed.  This is why I do like the Robert Spano / Atlanta SO rendering of the Sea Symphony.  He trims 10 minutes off the total duration of Mark Elder (to take a Brit conductor at random) - and, although I'm usually a 'slower is better' person, this one works for me.  Don't get me wrong though in this thread - in general I'd go for English conductors and orchestras for English music every time - likewise for any 'nationalist' composer such as Dvorak or Sibelius.  I actually was in the audience for a Boult/LPO performance of the 5th Symphony, at around the time his EMI recording was made, and it's an occasion I'll never forget.

[asin]B00006AAV7[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 07, 2018, 01:12:45 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 06, 2018, 09:33:27 AM
I've always considered Boult to be my ideal for VW's 5th Symphony, but I recently stumbled by chance upon the recording by Carlos Kalmar with the Oregon SO, dating from 2012.  Surprisingly the timings for all 4 movements between Boult/EMI and this recording are very similar indeed, however that said the overall approaches could hardly be more contrasted and I do, against all my instincts, really like the newer recording.

Boult of course is fully buttoned-down and the music unrolls without any untoward fuss or incident, all climaxes supressed and dynamics smoothed in the interests of maintaining the stiff upper lip.
The engineering was highly regarded in its day but does sound a bit bloodless by current tastes.
Under Kalmar by contrast the music really wears its heart on its sleeve with every moment wrung out for all its worth.  The Romanza in Kalmar's hands is quite exhausting.
The engineering is exceptionally fine, one of the best orchestral recordings I've heard, and the orchestra seem on good form with the various soloists never putting a foot wrong.
The 5th is coupled with Britten's Four Sea Interludes, and Elgar's Cockaigne.
The same team have also recorded VW's 4th, I haven't listened to this but it's coupled with Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem and that is again IMHO a strong front runner in its field (though competing with Britten's own recording which is hard to beat).

[asin]B009FA3T5O[/asin]

It is a good thing when non-British conductors and orchestras record RVW but I can't share the enthusiasm for Kalmar in the 5th. There is an attractive bite to the brass in the second movement but I find the rest prosaic. I will stick with Boult or Barbirolli (though both need remastering) or Previn. For more modern sound there is the excellent Spano with the bonus of a more attractive, to me, fill-up. I have sufficient recordings of the Britten Sea Interludes but can never get enough of the Tallis Fantasia.

Spano is my favourite for the Sea Symphony though the fairly recent Elder/Halle recording runs it close. For some really interesting, non-British RVW Rozhdestvenky and The State Symphony Orchestra of the USSR Ministry of Culture - mind-boggling in places.

I will have to give Kalmar in the 4th Symphony a try later.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 07, 2018, 03:20:24 AM
Forthcoming release:
[asin]B078X9KRCN[/asin]
I like the coupling of symphonies 5 and 6, which is surprisingly unusual. As far as I'm aware only Slatkin and Marriner have issued this combination of works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 07, 2018, 03:32:31 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 06, 2018, 02:20:03 PM
I've not commented on the 4th because it's not music I enjoy, but this is the album.  The Sinfonia da Requiem as I say is very fine partly due to the very close, detailed and involving recording technique, which I would expect to also benefit the 4th.  This issue also includes fragments by Ives and Adams.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B005MQJLGQ.01.L.jpg)

Nay, those are shorter works, not fragments (The Unanswered Question and The Wound-Dresser).

I once thought I liked the Adams, but I wonder quite seriously if just what I thought well of was, the Whitman text.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2018, 04:02:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 07, 2018, 03:20:24 AMI like the coupling of symphonies 5 and 6, which is surprisingly unusual. As far as I'm aware only Slatkin and Marriner have issued this combination of works.
The Thomson set has the same coupling (for me, it works better than the original release of the Sixth - with the bass tuba tattering the silence a few seconds after the 'al niente' of the symphony's final movement.  ??? 8)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51g53oYzmcL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51N8nFzgM5L.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 07, 2018, 04:22:00 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 07, 2018, 04:02:28 AM
The Thomson set has the same coupling (for me, it works better than the original release of the Sixth - with the bass tuba tattering the silence a few seconds after the 'al niente' of the symphony's final movement.  ??? 8)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51g53oYzmcL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51N8nFzgM5L.jpg)

Dead on!  The Sixth must close out the program.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 07, 2018, 05:13:26 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 07, 2018, 04:02:28 AM
The Thomson set has the same coupling (for me, it works better than the original release of the Sixth - with the bass tuba tattering the silence a few seconds after the 'al niente' of the symphony's final movement.  ??? 8)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51g53oYzmcL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51N8nFzgM5L.jpg)
Yes, I wasn't thinking of the boxed set couplings which are sometimes different, although I agree that it makes much more sense to have the Sixth at the end of the CD, as suggested by Karl. In my own mind I always expect No.6 to be followed by Vaughan Williams's speech of thanks to Boult and the orchestra as on my original encounter with the symphony on a Decca Eclipse LP!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 08, 2018, 01:29:09 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 06, 2018, 02:20:03 PM
I've not commented on the 4th because it's not music I enjoy, but this is the album.  The Sinfonia da Requiem as I say is very fine partly due to the very close, detailed and involving recording technique, which I would expect to also benefit the 4th.  This issue also includes fragments by Ives and Adams.

[asin]B005MQJLGQ[/asin]

I've just listened to RVW's 4th from this album and found it a superb performance, much more successful than the 5th from these forces. Whether I want the companion works is another matter - I will have to give them a listen another time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 08, 2018, 02:13:19 PM
I often buy downloads from eclassical (http://www.eclassical.com/) where there is no penalty for buying a single track or subset of tracks from an album, all prices are strictly pro-rata according to duration.  So, in the above case I bought the 4th (because I should try to learn to love it) and the Britten (which I do love) but not the Ives (already have several versions) or the Adams (little interest in vocal music).  No need to have the record producers dictate the programme.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 08, 2018, 09:05:52 PM
That site you mention would be a good resource if you wanted to buy a few tracks from an album, but in terms of whole album prices it seems a bit on the expensive side.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 09, 2018, 12:25:53 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 08, 2018, 01:29:09 AM
I've just listened to RVW's 4th from this album and found it a superb performance, much more successful than the 5th from these forces. Whether I want the companion works is another matter - I will have to give them a listen another time.

I listened to the Ives and the Adams and have now ordered the album, mainly on the strength of the RVW 4th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 09, 2018, 12:39:54 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 08, 2018, 09:05:52 PM
That site you mention would be a good resource if you wanted to buy a few tracks from an album, but in terms of whole album prices it seems a bit on the expensive side.

Yes I'd agree with that, though they often run 'offers' on hi-res material.  If I'm up for buying a complete album, I'd normally start by looking for a used CD on Amazon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 09, 2018, 01:43:16 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 08, 2018, 09:05:52 PM
That site you mention would be a good resource if you wanted to buy a few tracks from an album, but in terms of whole album prices it seems a bit on the expensive side.

I don't find eclassical particularly expensive, certainly not for lossless downloads; I rarely buy their studio quality downloads as they are perhaps a little pricey. The ability to buy only part of an album at a sensible price is also useful. Each day they have a special bargain offer; quite often it is something obscure and I rarely investigate but they also have some interesting albums, today it is Ravel/Daphnis et Chloe from Yannick Nezet-Seguin
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 28, 2018, 03:21:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 07, 2018, 03:20:24 AM
Forthcoming release:
[asin]B078X9KRCN[/asin]
I like the coupling of symphonies 5 and 6, which is surprisingly unusual. As far as I'm aware only Slatkin and Marriner have issued this combination of works.

It took me a while to get into this performance of Symphony 5. The opening section was not nearly (IMHO) as gripping as the recordings by Previn (RCA) or Barbirolli (EMI) however, the performance of the 'Romanza' third movement won me over, a beautify articulated romantic account. So a good but maybe not great performance. No.6 was terrific however - rather like a modern version of Boult's LPO account on Decca. Manze gets the eerie Epilogue finale right too. It is a bit faster than Boult's but unlike in many other recent performances there was no sense of it being rushed. Useful concise booklet notes but I didn't like the drab Roger Fry painting of Charleston Farmhouse, despite it being situated very near to where I live. It didn't really seem appropriate for either symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 28, 2018, 06:18:28 AM
If anyone is in southern California, this weekend (3/29 to 4/1) the suburb Los Angeles Philharmonic is performing Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 6.  Sadly, I will be out of the state and will miss a rare opportunity to see RVW live.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 28, 2018, 08:25:53 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 28, 2018, 06:18:28 AM
If anyone is in southern California, this weekend (3/29 to 4/1) the suburb Los Angeles Philharmonic is performing Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 6.  Sadly, I will be out of the state and will miss a rare opportunity to see RVW live.
I would love to hear the LAP perform Vaughan Williams's 6th Symphony!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 28, 2018, 10:50:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 28, 2018, 08:25:53 AM
I would love to hear the LAP perform Vaughan Williams's 6th Symphony!
What keeps you from going (http://www.skyscanner.nl/transport/vluchten/lond/laxa/180328/180401?adults=1&children=0&adultsv2=1&childrenv2=&infants=0&cabinclass=economy&rtn=1&preferdirects=false&outboundaltsenabled=false&inboundaltsenabled=false&ref=home&locale=en-GB#results) for it?   8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 28, 2018, 02:13:17 PM
Quote from: Christo on March 28, 2018, 10:50:02 AM
What keeps you from going (http://www.skyscanner.nl/transport/vluchten/lond/laxa/180328/180401?adults=1&children=0&adultsv2=1&childrenv2=&infants=0&cabinclass=economy&rtn=1&preferdirects=false&outboundaltsenabled=false&inboundaltsenabled=false&ref=home&locale=en-GB#results) for it?   8)

Financial considerations.

:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on April 01, 2018, 08:09:45 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 28, 2018, 06:18:28 AM
If anyone is in southern California, this weekend (3/29 to 4/1) the suburb Los Angeles Philharmonic is performing Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 6.  Sadly, I will be out of the state and will miss a rare opportunity to see RVW live.

That's fantastic news! RVW's music is way too infrequently performed in the States.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 09, 2018, 08:14:09 AM
Up until now I have not had a strong reaction to Vaughan Williams' Pastoral Symphony, but recently I listened to the 3rd symphony in Previn's RCA recording and it has gotten through to me. I'm not sure if it is Previn that did the magic, or whether I am just ready to assimilate it, but the word I would use to describe the music is luminous. The work demands attention because three of the four movements (1, 2, 4) have a generally similar mood and tempo, but with familiarity the shape of the musical drama became clear.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2018, 09:06:50 AM
Splendid!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 09, 2018, 09:07:11 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 09, 2018, 08:14:09 AM
Up until now I have not had a strong reaction to Vaughan Williams' Pastoral Symphony, but recently I listened to the 3rd symphony in Previn's RCA recording and it has gotten through to me. I'm not sure if it is Previn that did the magic, or whether I am just ready to assimilate it, but the word I would use to describe the music is luminous. The work demands attention because three of the four movements (1, 2, 4) have a generally similar mood and tempo, but with familiarity the shape of the musical drama became clear.

Previn's RCA version is IMHO by far the best version - in a class of its own. Much the same can be said of his RCA LSO recordings of A London Symphony and Symphony No.8. There are other good versions of No.2 and 8 but nothing else has the quality of Previn and the LSO in A Pastoral Symphony. Boult on Decca and the recent Elder recording are strong but without the same level of poetry as Previn.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2018, 09:14:06 AM
What is consensus on the Slatkin set?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 09, 2018, 09:17:21 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 09, 2018, 09:14:06 AM
What is consensus on the Slatkin set?
Underrated IMHO (as is his Shostakovich).
I especially like his RCA recordings of VW's 8 and 9.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 09, 2018, 09:38:24 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 09, 2018, 09:14:06 AM
What is consensus on the Slatkin set?

I've only heard the 3+4 from this cycle, but I expressed my highly positive view of it not so long ago on this thread.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2018, 09:40:26 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2018, 09:17:21 AM
Underrated IMHO (as is his Shostakovich).
I especially like his RCA recordings of VW's 8 and 9.

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 09, 2018, 09:38:24 AM
I've only heard the 3+4 from this cycle, but I expressed my highly positive view of it not so long ago on this thread.

Thanks, gents; and pardon my erstwhile inattention  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on April 09, 2018, 10:37:34 AM
+ 1 for the Slatkin set. A wonderful Sea Symphony starts the cycle in grand fashion. I'm probably alone in preferring the 1st over the others, much as I love them all  :laugh:.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2018, 10:55:07 AM
You may be alone in that, but it is nothing crazy  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on April 09, 2018, 12:13:47 PM
I always fall for a piece of music set to words by Walt Whitman.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 09, 2018, 01:38:44 PM
Quote from: André on April 09, 2018, 10:37:34 AM
+ 1 for the Slatkin set. A wonderful Sea Symphony starts the cycle in grand fashion. I'm probably alone in preferring the 1st over the others, much as I love them all  :laugh:.

I've increasingly come to appreciate A Sea Symphony, especially after hearing the Haitink version. The best music is in the finale I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2018, 02:25:45 PM
Quote from: André on April 09, 2018, 10:37:34 AM
+ 1 for the Slatkin set. A wonderful Sea Symphony starts the cycle in grand fashion.

I concur...and the recording has tremendous organ presence. Spectacular sound. My other favorite of Slatkin's set is his Fourth.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 09, 2018, 03:46:33 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2018, 01:38:44 PM
I've increasingly come to appreciate A Sea Symphony, especially after hearing the Haitink version. The best music is in the finale I think.

Haitink's Sea Symphony is the best of his RVW symphonies in my opinion.  It is the best version of that work I have heard.  The stars were aligned on that one in a way they haven't been since.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 10, 2018, 01:36:02 AM
Haitink did a fine cycle (plus the assorted fill-ups) but I don't remember the Sea Symphony being anything special. Nos 7, 8 and 9 were excellent with No 7 possibly the pick of the whole cycle. My current favourites for the Sea Symphony are Elder and Spano, difficult to choose between them.

For no particular reason I haven't heard any of Slatkin's cycle - sounds like I may have to give the Sea Symphony a try. Also, I haven't heard any of Bryden Thomson's cycle though many seem to like it. I am about to rectify that as I bought No 4 in the Chandos sale last week. So far I have only listened to the coupling, the Concerto accademico - not as good as Buswell/Previn but still a fine performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 10, 2018, 06:27:13 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 10, 2018, 01:36:02 AM
Haitink did a fine cycle (plus the assorted fill-ups) but I don't remember the Sea Symphony being anything special. Nos 7, 8 and 9 were excellent with No 7 possibly the pick of the whole cycle. My current favourites for the Sea Symphony are Elder and Spano, difficult to choose between them.

For no particular reason I haven't heard any of Slatkin's cycle - sounds like I may have to give the Sea Symphony a try. Also, I haven't heard any of Bryden Thomson's cycle though many seem to like it. I am about to rectify that as I bought No 4 in the Chandos sale last week. So far I have only listened to the coupling, the Concerto accademico - not as good as Buswell/Previn but still a fine performance.

Haitink's No. 9 is weak.  Very poorly balanced and not following the dynamics of the score.  It's my least favorite of his series. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2018, 06:33:04 AM
I spent my drive to Alewife listening to the first movement of A London Symphony from the Handley set, just to confirm for myself that when Hurwitz dismisses Handley, he's talking out of his hat.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 10, 2018, 06:39:54 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 10, 2018, 06:27:13 AM
Haitink's No. 9 is weak.  Very poorly balanced and not following the dynamics of the score.  It's my least favorite of his series.

Haitink's No 9 didn't strike me as weak when I first heard it but the 9th is the symphony I have probably listened to least.

Meanwhile, just finished listening to Bryden Thomson's excellent recording of No 4.

Leonard Slatkin's whole cycle is available so cheaply that I have ordered it rather than just the Sea Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2018, 06:41:25 AM
Aye, I simply sprang for the Slatkin box, figured it was the right risk:reward profile  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 10, 2018, 07:02:53 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 10, 2018, 06:27:13 AM
Haitink's No. 9 is weak.  Very poorly balanced and not following the dynamics of the score.  It's my least favorite of his series.

Quote from: Biffo on April 10, 2018, 06:39:54 AM
Haitink's No 9 didn't strike me as weak

Doesn't strike me as weak either. In fact, it's one of my favorite versions. When Gramophone reviewed it, their reviewer (Andrew Achenbach) thought it the best he'd ever heard:

I'm inclined to rate Haitink's resplendent new version as the finest yet, a thrillingly convinced and convincing demonstration of the timeless universality of VW's masterpiece. I love the clear-sighted dedication and stoic grandeur of the opening Moderato maestoso. Not only is Haitink meticulously faithful to both the letter and spirit of the score, VW's argument evolves with a nobility and wholeness that grip from first measure to last. Those tenuto strings at Fig 2 (1'02") in the second movement have just the right 'mud on boots' feel to them and, like Handley before him, Haitink doesn't overplay his hand in the central lyrical episode (its chaste beauty all the more affecting as a consequence). The hobgoblins of the Scherzo cackle with plenty of malevolent glee, yet Haitink proves just as tenderly responsive to the strings' ravishing cantabile c sostenuto dialogue between Figs 30 and 34 (from 4'06" to 4'42").

It's in the awesome final movement, though, where Haitink really surpasses himself: VW's monolithic vision is surveyed with an original power and cumulative impact that left this listener, at any rate, dumb struck with admiration and gratitude.

Throughout, the LPO play marvellously for their former chief, and EMI's Abbey Road sound is excellent, truthful in timbre and expertly balanced

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on April 10, 2018, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2018, 06:33:04 AM
I spent my drive to Alewife listening to the first movement of A London Symphony from the Handley set, just to confirm for myself that when Hurwitz dismisses Handley, he's talking out of his hat.

Hurwitz has a big collection of hats  :D.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on April 10, 2018, 12:47:24 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2018, 06:41:25 AM
Aye, I simply sprang for the Slatkin box, figured it was the right risk:reward profile  0:)

True. Some bargains are too good to resist, and sometimes prove to be worth their weight in gold (or almost).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 10, 2018, 12:49:38 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 10, 2018, 07:02:53 AM
Doesn't strike me as weak either. In fact, it's one of my favorite versions. When Gramophone reviewed it, their reviewer (Andrew Achenbach) thought it the best he'd ever heard:

I also liked it, but it was the first recording of the piece I had listened to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 10, 2018, 02:35:29 PM
Here's something interesting. I was listening to The Poisoned Kiss yesterday, (probably the last big VW work I hadn't heard), and in the love duet before the finale of Act 2 the music is very reminiscent of the slow movement of the Fifth.
I know that that movement is also indebted to the Pilgrim's Progress (written during the 1930s).
So it seems that the inspiration for the slow movement of the fifth is amorous as well as spiritual.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 11, 2018, 01:17:17 AM
I hardly know The Poisoned Kiss at all - or ''Sir John in Love' for that matter; isn't The Poisoned Kiss supposed to have a terrible libretto?

Crossed over from the Listening thread I've just listened to Previn's 'A Sea Symphony' mainly because I couldn't find my copy of the Slatkin which has been praised here. I enjoyed the Previn but agree with the 'Third Ear Guide' that the soloists are a bit too 'operatic'.
[asin]B00011MK74[/asin]
The Penguin CD Guide says that Slatkin is best in the first and last VW symphonies and that his cycle reveals the final three symphonies as up to the standard of the earlier ones.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 11, 2018, 06:42:20 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 10, 2018, 07:02:53 AM
Doesn't strike me as weak either. In fact, it's one of my favorite versions. When Gramophone reviewed it, their reviewer (Andrew Achenbach) thought it the best he'd ever heard:

I'm inclined to rate Haitink's resplendent new version as the finest yet, a thrillingly convinced and convincing demonstration of the timeless universality of VW's masterpiece. I love the clear-sighted dedication and stoic grandeur of the opening Moderato maestoso. Not only is Haitink meticulously faithful to both the letter and spirit of the score, VW's argument evolves with a nobility and wholeness that grip from first measure to last. Those tenuto strings at Fig 2 (1'02") in the second movement have just the right 'mud on boots' feel to them and, like Handley before him, Haitink doesn't overplay his hand in the central lyrical episode (its chaste beauty all the more affecting as a consequence). The hobgoblins of the Scherzo cackle with plenty of malevolent glee, yet Haitink proves just as tenderly responsive to the strings' ravishing cantabile c sostenuto dialogue between Figs 30 and 34 (from 4'06" to 4'42").

It's in the awesome final movement, though, where Haitink really surpasses himself: VW's monolithic vision is surveyed with an original power and cumulative impact that left this listener, at any rate, dumb struck with admiration and gratitude.

Throughout, the LPO play marvellously for their former chief, and EMI's Abbey Road sound is excellent, truthful in timbre and expertly balanced


Hmm, maybe I should relisten to it.  What I recall is the complete opposite of what Andrew Achenbach said.  The percussion is practically inaudible when marked at forte in the score.  No bass drum presence at all and there are many hits in the last movement.  Timpani is timid but marked marcato and fortissimo.  Not a recording that is faithful to the score or serves the music well so the final impression was a very timid, restrained, uninspired performance of a mighty cosmic work.  But maybe I should revisit it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 11, 2018, 08:04:26 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 11, 2018, 06:42:20 AM
Hmm, maybe I should relisten to it.  What I recall is the complete opposite of what Andrew Achenbach said.  The percussion is practically inaudible when marked at forte in the score.  No bass drum presence at all and there are many hits in the last movement.  Timpani is timid but marked marcato and fortissimo.  Not a recording that is faithful to the score or serves the music well so the final impression was a very timid, restrained, uninspired performance of a mighty cosmic work.  But maybe I should revisit it.

AA doesn't mention the percussion. You could be right. I'll have to revisit too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 11, 2018, 08:20:03 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 11, 2018, 06:42:20 AM
. . . so the final impression was a very timid, restrained, uninspired performance [....]

One man's floor is another man's ceiling, and all that . . . but I listened again this morning, and those are not three descriptors I should ever apply to this performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 11, 2018, 12:34:52 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 10, 2018, 02:35:29 PMSo it seems that the inspiration for the slow movement of the fifth is amorous as well as spiritual.
Great observation! One would say: just like Flos Campi - though that has a different aesthetic. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 11, 2018, 03:26:53 PM
Apparently The Poisoned Kiss (complete performance) is on BBC Radio 3 tomorrow afternoon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 11, 2018, 03:49:29 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 11, 2018, 01:17:17 AM
I hardly know The Poisoned Kiss at all - or ''Sir John in Love' for that matter; isn't The Poisoned Kiss supposed to have a terrible libretto?

I was listening for the music  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 11, 2018, 04:55:26 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 11, 2018, 08:20:03 AM
One man's floor is another man's ceiling, and all that . . . but I listened again this morning, and those are not three descriptors I should ever apply to this performance.

We disagree then.  I also need to note to take Andrew Achenbach reviews with a grain of salt because he is wrong in this case.  Of all the version so of RVW No. 9 I've heard this is one of the weakest and I can objectively say he ignores much of the score indications in contrast to what Achenbach said. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 11, 2018, 10:12:27 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 10, 2018, 06:27:13 AMHaitink's No. 9 is weak.  Very poorly balanced and not following the dynamics of the score.  It's my least favorite of his series.
My opinion too; I was even shocked when I heard it. My own favourite Ninth remains Thomson's, who has the edge - utter drama - in both central movements.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 11, 2018, 10:46:29 PM
Good review of recent Manze CD:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Apr/VW_sys56_4184.htm

My favourite recordings of No.9

The one recorded on the day of VW's death (26/08/1958) - he had been due to attend the recording session. Boult LPO Everest/Decca. Also Boult's later EMI recording is a wonderfully reflective version. I think that No.9 is generally well served on disc, unlike No.6.

Stokowski on Cala CD

Thomson on Chandos

Handley on CFP has the best harps at the end.

Slatkin is also very good in No.9
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2018, 01:12:14 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 11, 2018, 04:55:26 PM
We disagree then.  I also need to note to take Andrew Achenbach reviews with a grain of salt because he is wrong in this case.  Of all the version so of RVW No. 9 I've heard this is one of the weakest and I can objectively say he ignores much of the score indications in contrast to what Achenbach said. 

Quote from: Christo on April 11, 2018, 10:12:27 PM
My opinion too; I was even shocked when I heard it. My own favourite Ninth remains Thomson's, who has the edge - utter drama - in both central movements.

Interesting, gents.

The timing is fun, as I have been comparing the Scherzo (which is where I suppose the quarrel with the timid percussion comes in) of some of the recordings I have — and if someone had told me, 20 years ago, that I should have five recordings of the Vaughan Williams Ninth (soon to be six, when the Slatkin lands) I should have stared at him like he had three heads — and I certainly noticed the higher profile of the percussion in the Thomson.

Personally, I still cannot bring myself to apply the word timid to the Haitink.  The "placement" of the percussion is, arguably, consistent with the style.  And of course, I am not a man shy of percussion   8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 12, 2018, 04:05:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 11, 2018, 10:46:29 PM
Good review of recent Manze CD:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Apr/VW_sys56_4184.htm


Thanks for the link. I'm glad it is a good review as the disc is on its way, arriving today. I was disappointed with the Elder pairing of Nos 4 & 6 the reviewer used in his comparison. Still not sure about Manze in Nos 3 & 4 - just finished listening to No 3 again and can't make my mind up whether to buy the disc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 12, 2018, 06:35:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 12, 2018, 01:12:14 AM
Interesting, gents.

The timing is fun, as I have been comparing the Scherzo (which is where I suppose the quarrel with the timid percussion comes in) of some of the recordings I have — and if someone had told me, 20 years ago, that I should have five recordings of the Vaughan Williams Ninth (soon to be six, when the Slatkin lands) I should have stared at him like he had three heads — and I certainly noticed the higher profile of the percussion in the Thomson.

Personally, I still cannot bring myself to apply the word timid to the Haitink.  The "placement" of the percussion is, arguably, consistent with the style.  And of course, I am not a man shy of percussion   8)

I've mentioned on this thread before that my favorite No. 9 is Previn/LSO.  It brings the best mix of mystery and contemplation (not felt in some of the more brutal interpretations) with gravitas.  Expertly performed and interpreted.  I also like both Boults for similar reasons (slight preference to 1969 recording but the 1958 version is a sentimental and safe choice).  Handley is also very strong but not able to top my favorites.  My least favorite are Davis (both of them), Haitink, and Bakels which is just too rushed and doesn't relish in the grandeur of the monumental music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2018, 06:36:49 AM
Interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 14, 2018, 01:15:49 AM
Just listened again to Haitink's LPO version of 'A Sea Symphony' (BBC 'Building a Library' No. 1 choice in 2000) - it always moves me considerably more than any other recording. If you want to hear this work I think that you have to hear this version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 14, 2018, 01:44:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 14, 2018, 01:15:49 AM
Just listened again to Haitink's LPO version of 'A Sea Symphony' (BBC 'Building a Library' No. 1 choice in 2000) - it always moves me considerably more than any other recording. If you want to hear this work I think that you have to hear this version.
Fully seconded. Haitink's Sea and Antartica are the only ones that I like.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 14, 2018, 05:30:06 AM
Most gratifying!

This morning, I am revisiting A Pastoral Symphony from the Bryden Thomson set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 14, 2018, 05:39:48 AM
just listened to Symphony No 6 from Andrew Manze and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra and not sure what to make of it. After a dramatic start I get the impression that Manze is trying to be different from everyone else and the 1st movement sounds just plain odd. Obviously I will have to give it another listen.

The Slatkin cycle arrived today. I haven't started on the symphonies yet but listened to the Tallis Fantasia - well played but lacking something.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 14, 2018, 08:42:44 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 14, 2018, 05:30:06 AM
Most gratifying!

This morning, I am revisiting A Pastoral Symphony from the Bryden Thomson set.

One of the few successes I think. This symphony is difficult to get right. Previn is best as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 14, 2018, 04:48:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 14, 2018, 08:42:44 AM
One of the few successes I think. This symphony is difficult to get right. Previn is best as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with you.  Previn/LSO were firing on all cylinders during their tenure.  Some fantastic recordings came then and I believe the 70's was the best the LSO ever sounded.  But more importantly, the yank really got to the heart of the subtext of this music in a way I haven't heard again (with the possible exception of Boult).  Every recording since those cycles is compared to them IMO. 

If you need to own a complete cycle by one orchestra/conductor these are the ones to have.  If you are willing to mix and match then it becomes much more complicated.  Haitink/LPO is my favorite "Sea Symphony" for example and one of my least favorite No. 9.  I don't really care for Previn's Sea Symphony and adore his No. 9. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 15, 2018, 01:26:31 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 14, 2018, 04:48:12 PM
I agree with you.  Previn/LSO were firing on all cylinders during their tenure.  Some fantastic recordings came then and I believe the 70's was the best the LSO ever sounded.  But more importantly, the yank really got to the heart of the subtext of this music in a way I haven't heard again (with the possible exception of Boult).  Every recording since those cycles is compared to them IMO. 

If you need to own a complete cycle by one orchestra/conductor these are the ones to have.  If you are willing to mix and match then it becomes much more complicated.  Haitink/LPO is my favorite "Sea Symphony" for example and one of my least favorite No. 9.  I don't really care for Previn's Sea Symphony and adore his No. 9.

I agree although can't remember the Haitink No.9. Weird as it might sound I think that A Pastoral Symphony works better on CD than live. Controversial I know but maybe to do with the intimate nature of the music. Maybe because I did not enjoy the live concert I attended (Del Mar) during which my brother actually feel asleep.

Anyway this gives me a chance for another list.  :)

A Sea Symphony: Haitink (Studio recording)
A London Symphony: Hickox (1913), Brabbins (1920), Boult (EMI or Decca), Barbirolli (EMI) 1936
A Pastoral Symphony: Previn LSO
Symphony 4: Berglund
Symphony No.5 Barbirolli (EMI)
Symphony No. 6 Boult (LPO Decca)
Sinfonia Antartica Boult (LPO Decca) though I need to listen to Haitink again
Symphony No.8 Previn LSO
Symphony No. 9 Stokowski, either Boult version, Thomson, Slatkin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 15, 2018, 04:18:58 AM
As it is list time here is my not entirely conclusive set of favourites -

No 1 A Sea Symphony - Elder/Halle just ahead of Spano/Atlanta SO
No 2 A London Symphony (Standard version) - hard to choose between Barbirolli/Halle (1957, though I prefer the Lento from the later recording) and Boult/LPO though I have a soft spot for Handley/RLPO
No 3 Pastoral Symphony - Previn/LSO
No 4 RVW himself conducting the BBC SO; if you want a modern recording, a very new found favourite - Kalmar/Oregon SO
No 5 Very difficult to choose between Previn/LSO, Barbirolli/Philharmonia and Boult/LPO - Boult and Barbirolli need remastering, the strings in the Boult have a very unpleasant edge to them I don't remember from the LP issue
No 6 Boult/LSO (1949/50) - can't choose a modern version
No 7 Sinfonia antartica - Haitink/LPO though I also like Previn/LSO minus the 'furry-voiced recitations' (copyright 'Gramophone'). Also have a soft spot for Barbirolli's world premiere recording, shame it is in mono.
No 8 Any of Barbirolli's recordings have authenticity but I go for Halle/Elder for a modern version
No 9 Handley or Previn, the symphony I know least well

Best cycle - Previn/LSO
Most amazing cycle - Rozhdestvensky conducting The State Symphony Orchestra of the USSR Ministry of Culture

Mention of BBC Radio 3 and Building a Library (above) sent me to look up the top choices (1999 - 2017). Nos 7 & 8 weren't reviewed in this period. I have given the name of the guilty reviewer.

No 1 - Haitink/LPO etc (2000) - Edward Seckerson
No 1 Spano/Atlanta SO (2007) - Piers Burton-Page
No Handley/RLPO  - Mark Lowther
No 3 Hickox/LSO - Andrew Green
No 4 Berglund/RPO- Piers Burton-Page
No 5 Hickox/LSO - Piers Burton-Page
No 6 Hickox/LSO - Stephen Johnson
No 9 Handley/RLPO - Jonathan Swain

Hickox does well; I collected his incomplete cycle as it was issued and greatly enjoyed it though none counted as my first choice. I seem to recall several of the discs got tepid reviews in the press but don't have any wxamples to offer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 15, 2018, 11:46:44 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 15, 2018, 04:18:58 AM
As it is list time here is my not entirely conclusive set of favourites -

No 1 A Sea Symphony - Elder/Halle just ahead of Spano/Atlanta SO
No 2 A London Symphony (Standard version) - hard to choose between Barbirolli/Halle (1957, though I prefer the Lento from the later recording) and Boult/LPO though I have a soft spot for Handley/RLPO
No 3 Pastoral Symphony - Previn/LSO
No 4 RVW himself conducting the BBC SO; if you want a modern recording, a very new found favourite - Kalmar/Oregon SO
No 5 Very difficult to choose between Previn/LSO, Barbirolli/Philharmonia and Boult/LPO - Boult and Barbirolli need remastering, the strings in the Boult have a very unpleasant edge to them I don't remember from the LP issue
No 6 Boult/LSO (1949/50) - can't choose a modern version
No 7 Sinfonia antartica - Haitink/LPO though I also like Previn/LSO minus the 'furry-voiced recitations' (copyright 'Gramophone'). Also have a soft spot for Barbirolli's world premiere recording, shame it is in mono.
No 8 Any of Barbirolli's recordings have authenticity but I go for Halle/Elder for a modern version
No 9 Handley or Previn, the symphony I know least well

Best cycle - Previn/LSO
Most amazing cycle - Rozhdestvensky conducting The State Symphony Orchestra of the USSR Ministry of Culture

Mention of BBC Radio 3 and Building a Library (above) sent me to look up the top choices (1999 - 2017). Nos 7 & 8 weren't reviewed in this period. I have given the name of the guilty reviewer.

No 1 - Haitink/LPO etc (2000) - Edward Seckerson
No 1 Spano/Atlanta SO (2007) - Piers Burton-Page
No Handley/RLPO  - Mark Lowther
No 3 Hickox/LSO - Andrew Green
No 4 Berglund/RPO- Piers Burton-Page
No 5 Hickox/LSO - Piers Burton-Page
No 6 Hickox/LSO - Stephen Johnson
No 9 Handley/RLPO - Jonathan Swain

Hickox does well; I collected his incomplete cycle as it was issued and greatly enjoyed it though none counted as my first choice. I seem to recall several of the discs got tepid reviews in the press but don't have any wxamples to offer.
Interesting choices and thanks for including the BBC choices as well. I think that No.9 is Handley's best although his Sea Symphony and Symphony 5 are very good as well. All the others are good but none would be my first choice. His earlier LPO recording of A London Symphony is better, I think, than the RLPO version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 15, 2018, 12:33:51 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 15, 2018, 01:26:31 AM
Anyway this gives me a chance for another list.  :)

Quote from: Biffo on April 15, 2018, 04:18:58 AM
As it is list time here is my not entirely conclusive set of favourites

Here's mine, keeping it to two each here (although I have four to five favorites of each symphony):

1 - Boult (EMI)
     Haitink

2 -  Barbirolli (Dutton)
      Hickox (1913)

3 - Haitink
     Boult (Decca)

4 - Bernstein
     Boult (Decca)
   
5 - Menuhin
     Haitink
   
6 - Boult (Decca)
     Haitink
     
7 - Haitink
     Previn

8 - Haitink
     Boult (EMI)

9 - Thomson
     Haitink

Obviously my favorite cycles are Haitink and the Boults with Rozhdestvensky a fascinating alternative. Just wish his 8th wasn't such a disaster.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 15, 2018, 01:53:44 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 15, 2018, 12:33:51 PM
Here's mine, keeping it to two each here (although I have four to five favorites of each symphony):

1 - Boult (EMI)
     Haitink

2 -  Barbirolli (Dutton)
      Hickox (1913)

3 - Haitink
     Boult (Decca)

4 - Bernstein
     Boult (Decca)
   
5 - Menuhin
     Haitink
   
6 - Boult (Decca)
     Haitink
     
7 - Haitink
     Previn

8 - Haitink
     Boult (EMI)

9 - Thomson
     Haitink

Obviously my favorite cycles are Haitink and the Boults with Rozhdestvensky a fascinating alternative. Just wish his 8th wasn't such a disaster.

Sarge
Interesting choices and no great disagreements from me. The Menuhin for No.5 is especially interesting as it has had a fairly bad press. I have it on CD with the double Piano Concerto  and will listen again. I'd choose Previn for No.3. I like the Rozhdestvensky very much. There is a great moment in No.7 where an organ sequence goes a bit 'Dr Phibes' ( if you're old enough to understand the reference). Bernstein and Mitropolous are very good in No.4.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 16, 2018, 03:33:36 AM
Listening to the Bakels Ninth last night, I marked that some tempi/events were somewhere faster/briefer.  I can understand that knocking it out of the running for this or that enthusiast's favorite;  nevertheless, I found it an interesting alternative.  And, I do find the performance good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 16, 2018, 04:06:27 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 16, 2018, 03:33:36 AM
Listening to the Bakels Ninth last night, I marked that some tempi/events were somewhere faster/briefer.  I can understand that knocking it out of the running for this or that enthusiast's favorite;  nevertheless, I found it an interesting alternative.  And, I do find the performance good.

I like Bakels too, in fact he's right up there with Thomson in my estimation (both are speed demons, making a nice contrast to my other fave Haitink). I need to give Roz and Previn another listen, though...maybe time to re-evaluate. Both are even slower than Haitink.

Vaughan Williams 9 timings

Rozhdestvensky MofC 10:40   7:40   5:53   13:28
Previn/LSO                  10:10    8:36   5:58   13:49
Haitink/LPO                 10:06    7:56   5:31   12:56             
Slatkin/Philharmonia     9:19    7:51   4:51   11:44
Boult/LPO Decca           9:20    8:09   5:37   11:44
Boult/LPO EMI              9:13    7:46   5:40   12:05
Handley/RLPO              8:47    7:27   5:26   11:13
Davis/BBC                    8:47    8:39   5:18   11:18
Bakels                          7:39    7:07   5:15     9:44
Thomson/LSO              7:15    7:04   5:44   10:52


Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on April 17, 2018, 01:09:30 AM
I just want to thank those who spoke up for Slatkin's recording of A Sea Symphony upthread, and especially Sarge:
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2018, 02:25:45 PM
I concur...and the recording has tremendous organ presence. Spectacular sound. My other favorite of Slatkin's set is his Fourth.

This piqued my interest and a for very little outlay a used CD fell onto my doormat yesterday.  Absolutely superb, and a gorgeous quality of sound I must say I don't normally associate with the RCA label.  Performance-wise, I'd have to listen again (which is no small undertaking of course).
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41MV0C3MM7L.jpg)
(And, before we go round the block again, yes I have owned the Haitink recording ever since it was first released, and have more recently added Spano and Elder.  Of these I like Spano the best but I'm not sure he could be recommended an an 'only' version.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on April 17, 2018, 03:42:43 AM
+ 1

Spano is very exciting, but too 'wild' for my taste. Slatkin rules. It has everything, in spades.There are other excellent versions of course.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on April 17, 2018, 04:59:00 AM
Having just listened to the first movement again (and sampled the other three versions I have) I very regretfully have to DQ Slatkin because of his soprano.  For me, she falls badly at her first big hurdle "Flaunt out O sea", with wild vibrato and nasty glottal noises.  I won't name her as I feel huge sympathy for any singer faced with the near-impossible prospect of putting this piece on record.
Listening to the others this is equally a problem (actually much worse) in the Elder recording.  (Live performance, I think?)

For Spano, Christine Goerke belts it out just fine and is probably helped by the quicker tempo, for Haitink, Felicity Lott sounds somewhat restrained compared with the others (she is also much lower in the mix - more distant, a better balance really) and aquits herself well.

Did Rozhdestvensky have Vishnevskaya? (no, Googling I see not) - she would have been perfect for this.   8)  Maybe less good in the last movement though.

I see Boult (EMI) is available for pennies, I'll have to try it - on vinyl it was always a problem for me - a cumbersome double LP, and the choral highlights sounding a bit distorted, this was why Haitink was such a clear upgrade when he came along (having seen them both live, they are/were quite similar conductors, I always thought - both so undemonstrative on the podium, admirable).

Incidentally, every time I hear this first movement my brain plays the same trick, and plays it whatever recording I listen to - the baritone sings:
Today a rude brief recitative
Of ships sailing the seas, each with its special flag or ship-signal

oh yes, he sings that right enough - but I hear:
Of ships sailing the seas, each with its special brand of ships biscuits
:laugh:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 17, 2018, 11:00:08 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on April 17, 2018, 04:59:00 AM
Having just listened to the first movement again (and sampled the other three versions I have) I very regretfully have to DQ Slatkin because of his soprano.  For me, she falls badly at her first big hurdle "Flaunt out O sea", with wild vibrato and nasty glottal noises.  I won't name her as I feel huge sympathy for any singer faced with the near-impossible prospect of putting this piece on record.
Listening to the others this is equally a problem (actually much worse) in the Elder recording.  (Live performance, I think?)

For Spano, Christine Goerke belts it out just fine and is probably helped by the quicker tempo, for Haitink, Felicity Lott sounds somewhat restrained compared with the others (she is also much lower in the mix - more distant, a better balance really) and aquits herself well.

Did Rozhdestvensky have Vishnevskaya? (no, Googling I see not) - she would have been perfect for this.   8)  Maybe less good in the last movement though.

I see Boult (EMI) is available for pennies, I'll have to try it - on vinyl it was always a problem for me - a cumbersome double LP, and the choral highlights sounding a bit distorted, this was why Haitink was such a clear upgrade when he came along (having seen them both live, they are/were quite similar conductors, I always thought - both so undemonstrative on the podium, admirable).

Incidentally, every time I hear this first movement my brain plays the same trick, and plays it whatever recording I listen to - the baritone sings:
Today a rude brief recitative
Of ships sailing the seas, each with its special flag or ship-signal

oh yes, he sings that right enough - but I hear:
Of ships sailing the seas, each with its special brand of ships biscuits
:laugh:
I like the alternative 'ships biscuits' version.

A friend of mine ruined the verse in VW's 'An Oxford Elegy' from Matthew Arnold:

'...up your pathway strays'

by telling me that it reminded him of one of the innuendos of the late British comedian Frankie Howerd. I've never been able to take it seriously ever since.

On a separate note I turned on my car radio earlier and for a few seconds thought I was listening to A Sea Symphony but it turned out to be a section of 'The Canterbury Pilgrims' by Sir George Dyson.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 17, 2018, 07:32:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 17, 2018, 11:00:08 AM
On a separate note I turned on my car radio earlier and for a few seconds thought I was listening to A Sea Symphony but it turned out to be a section of 'The Canterbury Pilgrims' by Sir George Dyson.

BLASPHEMY!!!

8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 17, 2018, 11:48:49 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 17, 2018, 11:00:08 AM
I like the alternative 'ships biscuits' version.

A friend of mine ruined the verse in VW's 'An Oxford Elegy' from Matthew Arnold:

'...up your pathway strays'

by telling me that it reminded him of one of the innuendos of the late British comedian Frankie Howerd. I've never been able to take it seriously ever since.

I can think of several other innuendo type phrases in the texts that VW selected for this symphony. And there are even more in the works of Whitman as a whole.

Whitman was gay, and expressed this in his works in referencing male beauty, manly affection &c, but I think the ambiguous phrases come about because WW was very effusive in his works and dashed off a whole load of words without thinking too carefully about what they might imply. Or perhaps he didn't care.

:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2018, 01:25:29 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 17, 2018, 11:48:49 PM
I can think of several other innuendo type phrases in the texts that VW selected for this symphony. And there are even more in the works of Whitman as a whole.

Whitman was gay, and expressed this in his works in referencing male beauty, manly affection &c, but I think the ambiguous phrases come about because WW was very effusive in his works and dashed off a whole load of words without thinking too carefully about what they might imply. Or perhaps he didn't care.

:)

A very interesting point - which has also been made in relation to the Whitman settings in Bliss's masterpiece (IMHO) 'Morning Heroes'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on April 18, 2018, 06:04:29 AM
Coincidentally, I received Morning Heroes this week. Will listen to it soon (it's in the pile somewhere... ::)).

Whitman was not only gay, but like other hedonists (Benvenuto Cellini, Gustav Klimt), someone for whom beauty and its corollary sensuality were the most precious gifts of nature to mankind.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 18, 2018, 06:23:04 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 17, 2018, 07:32:06 PM
BLASPHEMY!!!

8)

My radio was off on my car radio earlier and for a few seconds I thought I was listening to 4'33" by John Cage.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2018, 08:29:01 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 18, 2018, 06:23:04 AM
My radio was off on my car radio earlier and for a few seconds I thought I was listening to 4'33" by John Cage.

LOL
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2018, 08:30:27 AM
Quote from: André on April 18, 2018, 06:04:29 AM
Coincidentally, I received Morning Heroes this week. Will listen to it soon (it's in the pile somewhere... ::)).

Whitman was not only gay, but like other hedonists (Benvenuto Cellini, Gustav Klimt), someone for whom beauty and its corollary sensuality were the most precious gifts of nature to mankind.

Which version Andre?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on April 18, 2018, 10:07:38 AM
This disc:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41RYGHMc7OL.jpg)

Is it any good ?  Never heard the work, let alone other versions  :D !
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 18, 2018, 03:52:07 PM
I am confused about the versions of the London Symphony.  I am listening to the Hyperion Mundi/Rochester Philharmonic recording and it is the "rare" 1920 version, right?  Meanwhile there was a Hyperion/BBC Symphony/Martyn Brabbins.  This is the very same version, right?  Then I know there is the long Hickox original 1913 version which I believe is the only one.  My other confusion is the most common version is from 1933 that makes a lot of cuts, right?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 19, 2018, 12:51:52 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 18, 2018, 03:52:07 PM
I am confused about the versions of the London Symphony.  I am listening to the Hyperion Mundi/Rochester Philharmonic recording and it is the "rare" 1920 version, right?  Meanwhile there was a Hyperion/BBC Symphony/Martyn Brabbins.  This is the very same version, right?  Then I know there is the long Hickox original 1913 version which I believe is the only one.  My other confusion is the most common version is from 1933 that makes a lot of cuts, right?

The London Symphony was completed in 1913 and first performed the year after; this the version Hickox used and is, as far as I know, the only recording of it. After a performance by Boult in March 1918 RVW revised the work and again after a further performance by Boult; this second revision was published in 1920 and is the version used by Brabbins. RVW was still not satisfied and revised the work again in 1933 making cuts that several of his friends were unhappy with. This 1933 revision (published 1936) is the standard version most often recorded. He considered a further revision in the early 1950s but gave up saying the work was 'beyond mending'.

Edit: It was the versions made between 1918 and 1920 that involved the largest cuts, roughly 25-30% of the original score.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 19, 2018, 04:44:26 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 19, 2018, 12:51:52 AM
The London Symphony was completed in 1913 and first performed the year after; this the version Hickox used and is, as far as I know, the only recording of it. After a performance by Boult in March 1918 RVW revised the work and again after a further performance by Boult; this second revision was published in 1920 and is the version used by Brabbins. RVW was still not satisfied and revised the work again in 1933 making cuts that several of his friends were unhappy with. This 1933 revision (published 1936) is the standard version most often recorded. He considered a further revision in the early 1950s but gave up saying the work was 'beyond mending'.

Edit: It was the versions made between 1918 and 1920 that involved the largest cuts, roughly 25-30% of the original score.

I have a feeling that the Rochester version was mistakenly advertised on some sites as being the 'rare' 1920 version but is in fact of the standard 1936 version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 19, 2018, 06:34:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 19, 2018, 04:44:26 AM
I have a feeling that the Rochester version was mistakenly advertised on some sites as being the 'rare' 1920 version but is in fact of the standard 1936 version.

Yes, the CD booklet makes it look like it is the 1920 version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on April 19, 2018, 06:51:01 AM
Those timings are substantially shorter than both the 1933 versions I have to hand (Bakels and Elder).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 19, 2018, 08:09:24 AM
Coincidentally,  I have just listened to Slatkin/Philharmonia and his overall timing isn't too different from the Rochester recording.  Without thinking about timings, it didn't seem rushed though Slatkin does have a very lively Scherzo. I was also impressed by his beautiful tender Lento. I don't have any other versions to hand to make comparisons
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 19, 2018, 01:40:24 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 19, 2018, 06:34:27 AM
Yes, the CD booklet makes it look like it is the 1920 version.
Yes, it's misleading.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 19, 2018, 01:43:26 PM
Quote from: Biffo on April 19, 2018, 12:51:52 AMEdit: It was the versions made between 1918 and 1920 that involved the largest cuts, roughly 25-30% of the original score.

The 1920 version was published no? Nothing to prevent it being performed except respect for VW's wishes. Copyright must be expired by now, no?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 19, 2018, 01:43:42 PM
Quote from: Biffo on April 19, 2018, 08:09:24 AM
Coincidentally,  I have just listened to Slatkin/Philharmonia and his overall timing isn't too different from the Rochester recording.  Without thinking about timings, it didn't seem rushed though Slatkin does have a very lively Scherzo. I was also impressed by his beautiful tender Lento. I don't have any other versions to hand to make comparisons

I listened yesterday to Slatkin's 'A Pastoral Symphony' and enjoyed it despite the fast tempo. I found it to be a very passionate and atmospheric version which gripped me more than many other recordings. It is being performed at the London Proms this year, as is 'A London Symphony' (1936) and Dona Nobis Pacem.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 19, 2018, 01:46:05 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 19, 2018, 01:43:26 PM
The 1920 version was published no? Nothing to prevent it being performed except respect for VW's wishes. Copyright must be expired by now, no?

Not sure how this works. There are three CD versions of the 1920 version. Only one recording was allowed of the 1913 version. I think they need the permission of the RVW Trust. It was Ursula VW who allowed the recording and performance of the 1913 version to take place.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 19, 2018, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 19, 2018, 01:46:05 PM
Not sure how this works. There are three CD versions of the 1920 version. Only one recording was allowed of the 1913 version. I think they need the permission of the RVW Trust. It was Ursula VW who allowed the recording and performance of the 1913 version to take place.

The 1913 version was never published. They didn't have the score unless the RVW trust gave it to them. The 1920 version was published and sits on library shelves around the world. If copyright is still in force they have to pay royalties to perform it, and the copyright holder can deny permission. But when does copyright expire? It's been 98 years. No one can tell you you don't have permission to play Mozart unless his great, great, grandchild says so.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 19, 2018, 02:33:22 PM
Quote from: André on April 18, 2018, 10:07:38 AM
This disc:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41RYGHMc7OL.jpg)

Is it any good ?  Never heard the work, let alone other versions  :D !

Morning Heroes is Bliss' masterpiece I think and the best version is still the 1st recording - Groves RLPO

[asin]B000026LQ8[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Daverz on April 19, 2018, 03:37:41 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 19, 2018, 02:33:22 PM
Morning Heroes is Bliss' masterpiece I think and the best version is still the 1st recording - Groves RLPO

[asin]B000026LQ8[/asin]

Then there's the Kibblewhite with Brian Blessed as the narrator. 

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8069169--bliss-investiture-antiphonal-fanfare-prayer-of-st-francis-of-assisi-and-morning-heroes

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/5015853101021.jpg?1434711440)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2018, 01:07:31 AM
Quote from: André on April 18, 2018, 10:07:38 AM
This disc:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41RYGHMc7OL.jpg)

Is it any good ?  Never heard the work, let alone other versions  :D !

OT

I have every CD version ( ::)) - I need to listen to the Richard Baker narration again. I recall him as a BBC newsreader.
The earliest studio recording on EMI (Groves/Westbrook) is still the best although I like the Kibblethwaite/Blessed version as well. The new Andrew Davis version is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned dut to the puny return of the 'canonfire' at the climax of the finale - what a disappointment! However, the original version of 'Hymn to Apollo' on the CD is excellent. I think that Morning Heroes is Bliss's masterpiece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 20, 2018, 01:52:41 AM
I saw Kibblewaite conduct the work as part of an Armistice concert some years ago - same forces on his recording but with Robert Hardy instead of Brian ("Gordon......Alive???!!!") Blessed who to my ear is far far too histrionic and misses the emotional weight that a more measured delivery brings.  Hardy was excellent.

Richard Baker was an actor before he became synonymous with news reading and has an excellent poised and resonant delivery but I prefer Groves' Liverpool performance overall
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2018, 02:16:40 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 20, 2018, 01:52:41 AM
I saw Kibblewaite conduct the work as part of an Armistice concert some years ago - same forces on his recording but with Robert Hardy instead of Brian ("Gordon......Alive???!!!") Blessed who to my ear is far far too histrionic and misses the emotional weight that a more measured delivery brings.  Hardy was excellent.

Richard Baker was an actor before he became synonymous with news reading and has an excellent poised and resonant delivery but I prefer Groves' Liverpool performance overall

I never knew that about Richard Baker. Thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on April 20, 2018, 05:04:20 AM
Thanks, gents. I'll start with the BBC newsreader and assess the situation when I've become more familiar with the work.

One of my favourite Bliss discs is this one:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/dec99/bliss2.jpg)

Shield of Faith is a big work, and the other items are also truly wonderful.


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/dec99/bliss.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/dec99/bliss.htm)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2018, 07:11:33 AM
Quote from: André on April 20, 2018, 05:04:20 AM
Thanks, gents. I'll start with the BBC newsreader and assess the situation when I've become more familiar with the work.

One of my favourite Bliss discs is this one:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/dec99/bliss2.jpg)

Shield of Faith is a big work, and the other items are also truly wonderful.


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/dec99/bliss.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/dec99/bliss.htm)

Definitely on my list. Thanks for the recommendation Andre.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on April 20, 2018, 09:51:47 AM
Back to Vaughan Williams, I'm currently listening to the Symphony No. 8 (Philharmonia/Slatkin). Since I first heard it around 10 years ago, I've associated it with warm spring evenings like the one I'm currently experiencing now. It's one of my favourites of his symphonies. His experiments with sonorities are astounding for the age he was at the time. I love how RVW dedicates the inner movements to wind/brass and strings respectively. And then that spectacular finale with all the percussion! The story of him spending the interval of a performance of Turandot in deep conversation with the tuned-gong player, inspiring him to use gongs in the 8th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2018, 11:40:28 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on April 20, 2018, 09:51:47 AM
Back to Vaughan Williams, I'm currently listening to the Symphony No. 8 (Philharmonia/Slatkin). Since I first heard it around 10 years ago, I've associated it with warm spring evenings like the one I'm currently experiencing now. It's one of my favourites of his symphonies. His experiments with sonorities are astounding for the age he was at the time. I love how RVW dedicates the inner movements to wind/brass and strings respectively. And then that spectacular finale with all the percussion! The story of him spending the interval of a performance of Turandot in deep conversation with the tuned-gong player, inspiring him to use gongs in the 8th.

I agree - it's an underrated work which I like very much - especially the 'Cavatina' slow movement. One of my favourite CDs has Boult performing it with the LPO coupled with the Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra (Vronsky/Babin). It's a Japanese reissue of the original LP release with Sir Gerald Kelly's fine painting of VW on the cover. The only downside, from my point of view, is the notes being exclusively in Japanese. It was Symphony No.8 which Boult chose to perform on the centenary of VW's birth (12/10/1972) at the Festival Hall in London, at a concert attended by my youthful self. He also performed 'Job' which is dedicated to Boult. That was the first time I heard the work. On Wenlock Edge was the other work I remember from the concert. A few day's later I was there again, this time to hear Boult conduct Symphony 5 in Westminster Abbey where VW's ashes are buried.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 21, 2018, 06:38:26 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 20, 2018, 11:40:28 PM
I agree - it's an underrated work which I like very much - especially the 'Cavatina' slow movement. One of my favourite CDs has Boult performing it with the LPO coupled with the Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra (Vronsky/Babin). It's a Japanese reissue of the original LP release with Sir Gerald Kelly's fine painting of VW on the cover. The only downside, from my point of view, is the notes being exclusively in Japanese. It was Symphony No.8 which Boult chose to perform on the centenary of VW's birth (12/10/1972) at the Festival Hall in London, at a concert attended by my youthful self. He also performed 'Job' which is dedicated to Boult. That was the first time I heard the work. On Wenlock Edge was the other work I remember from the concert. A few day's later I was there again, this time to hear Boult conduct Symphony 5 in Westminster Abbey where VW's ashes are buried.

Wow, what an amazing experience that must have been!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 21, 2018, 06:53:42 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 21, 2018, 06:38:26 AM
Wow, what an amazing experience that must have been!

It really was - I was only 17 at the time but luckily was brought up in Central London so I could easily get to both concerts. I had only recently discovered Vaughan Williams's music. Of course one cannot recapture the wide-eyed wonder of youth but it is a very happy memory.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 04, 2018, 01:44:52 PM
Interesting looking new Release:
[asin]B07C5NSRYP[/asin]
Always interesting to hear non-British orchestras performing VW.

This seems to be a review of the concert on which the new CD is based:

https://www.torontoconcertreviews.ca/november-17-2017-vaughan-williams---tso---roy-thomson-hall.html

I will get this for the underrated Piano Concerto and Flos Campi.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 05, 2018, 12:48:06 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 04, 2018, 01:44:52 PM
Interesting looking new Release:
[asin]B07C5NSRYP[/asin]
Always interesting to hear non-British orchestras performing VW.

This seems to be a review of the concert on which the new CD is based:

https://www.torontoconcertreviews.ca/november-17-2017-vaughan-williams---tso---roy-thomson-hall.html

I will get this for the underrated Piano Concerto and Flos Campi.

I have already bought this album as a lossless download but so far only listened to the Serenade to Music. Looking forward to the rest, especially to hearing the Piano Concerto. I already have Howard Shelley (1984) and the two-piano version (Vronsky & Babin) but a new interpretation will be interesting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2018, 12:52:30 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 05, 2018, 12:48:06 AM
I have already bought this album as a lossless download but so far only listened to the Serenade to Music. Looking forward to the rest, especially to hearing the Piano Concerto. I already have Howard Shelley (1984) and the two-piano version (Vronsky & Babin) but a new interpretation will be interesting.
I'll be interested to hear what you think. I don't especially like the Serenade to Music, much to the horror of some others here but the PC is a great favourite, although I tend to prefer the double piano version, which was the one I grew up with (Boult/Vronsky and Babin). I've pre-ordered the CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 05, 2018, 01:38:09 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2018, 12:52:30 AM
I'll be interested to hear what you think. I don't especially like the Serenade to Music, much to the horror of some others here but the PC is a great favourite, although I tend to prefer the double piano version, which was the one I grew up with (Boult/Vronsky and Babin). I've pre-ordered the CD.

I am duly horrified; it is rather like a H M Bateman cartoon - The Man who didn't like the Serenade to Music. The first ever LP I bought was Sargent conducting Vaughan Williams and the Serenade was one of the pieces, in the version for four soloists and chorus.

I will post my thoughts on the Toronto album in due course.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2018, 03:00:05 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 05, 2018, 01:38:09 AM
I am duly horrified; it is rather like a H M Bateman cartoon - The Man who didn't like the Serenade to Music. The first ever LP I bought was Sargent conducting Vaughan Williams and the Serenade was one of the pieces, in the version for four soloists and chorus.

I will post my thoughts on the Toronto album in due course.

I prefer the orchestral version without the voices  :o.

Yes, I'll be interested to hear your views of the Toronto performances.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 05, 2018, 03:03:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2018, 03:00:05 AM
I prefer the orchestral version without the voices  :o.

Yes, I'll be interested to hear your views of the Toronto performances.

The orchestral version is annoying, like the 'bleeding chunks' of Wagner, I keep expecting the voices to enter. In fact, I can't listen to the orchestral version without hearing the voices (from the Boult recording) in my head.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2018, 09:58:46 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 05, 2018, 03:03:30 AM
The orchestral version is annoying, like the 'bleeding chunks' of Wagner, I keep expecting the voices to enter. In fact, I can't listen to the orchestral version without hearing the voices (from the Boult recording) in my head.

I can't listen to the 1936 version of A London Symphony without being acutely aware of the missing poetic and moving section before the Epilogue.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 05, 2018, 07:43:20 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2018, 09:58:46 AM
I can't listen to the 1936 version of A London Symphony without being acutely aware of the missing poetic and moving section before the Epilogue.

The best performance of A London Symphony I've heard lately was that Brabbins' performance of the 1920 version on Hyperion. I think he really got under the skin of this symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2018, 11:24:13 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 05, 2018, 07:43:20 PM
The best performance of A London Symphony I've heard lately was that Brabbins' performance of the 1920 version on Hyperion. I think he really got under the skin of this symphony.
That is a wonderful CD - the best version of the 1920 London Symphony and with some interesting shorter works. I suspect that I will rarely listen to the 1936 version again. I wish that VW had stopped tinkering with the work after 1920. IMHO he excised one of the best, certainly most moving things that he wrote just before the end of the symphony, not to mention that briefly dark and turbulent section in the scherzo. My own view is that in 1936 he was too in thrall to Sibelius, who would have been at the height of his fame in Britain. Nothing wrong with that of course but I think that the more discursive nature on the 1920 version suited the rambling nature of the city itself.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 06, 2018, 12:10:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2018, 11:24:13 PM
That is a wonderful CD - the best version of the 1920 London Symphony and with some interesting shorter works. I suspect that I will rarely listen to the 1936 version again. I wish that VW had stopped tinkering with the work after 1920. IMHO he excised one of the best, certainly most moving things that he wrote just before the end of the symphony, not to mention that briefly dark and turbulent section in the scherzo. My own view is that in 1936 he was too in thrall to Sibelius, who would have been at the height of his fame in Britain. Nothing wrong with that of course but I think that the more discursive nature on the 1920 version suited the rambling nature of the city itself.

I suppose I am the exact opposite. I bought my first London Symphony (Boult/LPO) over 40 years ago and by the time the Hickox recording appeared (2001) the 1936 version, after countless listenings, was embedded in my brain. The Hickox is a fine performance but I probably haven't listened to it very often over the years, interesting as it is to hear RVW's first thoughts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 06, 2018, 01:48:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2018, 03:00:05 AM
I prefer the orchestral version without the voices  :o.
Yes, I'll be interested to hear your views of the Toronto performances.

It's not obvious, from that Toronto album cover, which version is included there.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 06, 2018, 03:12:03 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 06, 2018, 01:48:36 AM
It's not obvious, from that Toronto album cover, which version is included there.

It is the version for orchestra, chorus and four soloists. This is the version I first got to know from a Sargent recording back in the 1960s. It is very effective but, as I later discovered, not on a par with the original version for sixteen soloists.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 06, 2018, 06:26:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2018, 11:24:13 PM
That is a wonderful CD - the best version of the 1920 London Symphony and with some interesting shorter works. I suspect that I will rarely listen to the 1936 version again. I wish that VW had stopped tinkering with the work after 1920. IMHO he excised one of the best, certainly most moving things that he wrote just before the end of the symphony, not to mention that briefly dark and turbulent section in the scherzo. My own view is that in 1936 he was too in thrall to Sibelius, who would have been at the height of his fame in Britain. Nothing wrong with that of course but I think that the more discursive nature on the 1920 version suited the rambling nature of the city itself.

I can only nod my head in agreement, my friend. It is a fantastic recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 06, 2018, 10:37:04 PM
Quote from: Biffo on May 06, 2018, 12:10:11 AM
I suppose I am the exact opposite. I bought my first London Symphony (Boult/LPO) over 40 years ago and by the time the Hickox recording appeared (2001) the 1936 version, after countless listenings, was embedded in my brain. The Hickox is a fine performance but I probably haven't listened to it very often over the years, interesting as it is to hear RVW's first thoughts.

I grew up on Boult's later recording on EMI which is also a very fine version. It was part of the symphonic boxed set of LPs with the LPO and New Philharmonia Orchestra. One of the best recordings on the 1936 version I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2018, 09:49:40 AM
Ok, so what's the verdict here on Bernstein's Sony recording of Vaughan Williams's 4th Symphony with the NYPO ? I think it's excellent, maybe not my favourite version but searching and visionary all the same.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on May 10, 2018, 10:01:08 AM
I should listen to an earlier version of the London Symphony. (I have the Hickox and the new recording of the 1920 version.) I was going to, and I started by listening to the 1936 version for comparison, which turned into several recordings of the 1936 version (Andrew Davis, Haitink, Barbirolli), and by then I was burned out on the work and never got to the early version. Bad planning.

(Ironically, I did listen to the first movement of the 1920 version, recently released by Hyperion, I forget the conductor, but that's the movement that wasn't changed.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2018, 10:03:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 10, 2018, 09:49:40 AM
Ok, so what's the verdict here on Bernstein's Sony recording of Vaughan Williams's 4th Symphony with the NYPO ? I think it's excellent, maybe not my favourite version but searching and visionary all the same.

Bernstein is my favorite version although I also love the very different Boult (Decca) and Rozhdestvensky (slower Finales) and Slatkin.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 10, 2018, 10:25:37 AM
Curiously . . . I am not certain that I have yet listened to Lenny here . . . .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 10, 2018, 10:59:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 10, 2018, 09:49:40 AM
Ok, so what's the verdict here on Bernstein's Sony recording of Vaughan Williams's 4th Symphony with the NYPO ? I think it's excellent, maybe not my favourite version but searching and visionary all the same.

I like it a lot. It starts off a bit slower than I am used to, but it develops a great sense of power (like some natural disaster) as it goes on. The interpretation has an epic feeling, rather different from the neo-classical style of Berglund, for example.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2018, 11:42:10 AM
Thanks for the Lennie feedback guys. I agree that it is a very strong version. In fact the whole CD is good with a rather expressive and eloquent Tallis Fantasia, which I found more moving than usual. Otherwise I like the Boult EMI version and Berglund. I'm not that keen on the composer's own version and prefer his performance of Symphony 5.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 10, 2018, 05:00:51 PM
Listening to Bernstein's RVW No. 4 now.  The yanks really did nail searching and visionary all the same during this period, didn't they?  You have Bernstein's RVW No. 4 in 1965, Previn's Walton No. 1 in 1967 (the best interpretation IMO), then Previn's great LSO RVW cycle in the 70's.  But I do think Boult edges out Bernstein slightly in No. 4.  It is just electrifying with the Philharmonia. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 11, 2018, 06:24:51 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 10, 2018, 05:00:51 PM
Listening to Bernstein's RVW No. 4 now.  The yanks really did nail searching and visionary all the same during this period, didn't they?  You have Bernstein's RVW No. 4 in 1965, Previn's Walton No. 1 in 1967 (the best interpretation IMO), then Previn's great LSO RVW cycle in the 70's.  But I do think Boult edges out Bernstein slightly in No. 4.  It is just electrifying with the Philharmonia.

That Boult EMI version was the first one I knew. I even got our receptive Musical Appreciation teacher to play it to our class, on LP, when I was in the Sixth Form at school. I must have come across as a bit precocious, although my dismal performance in my academic studies would have made up for that.
8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 11, 2018, 07:01:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 10, 2018, 09:49:40 AM
Ok, so what's the verdict here on Bernstein's Sony recording of Vaughan Williams's 4th Symphony with the NYPO ? I think it's excellent, maybe not my favourite version but searching and visionary all the same.

A powerful performance and certainly one of my favorites. I think Bernstein really understood this symphony --- a shame he never tackled the sixth.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 11, 2018, 07:54:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2018, 07:01:51 AM
A powerful performance and certainly one of my favorites. I think Bernstein really understood this symphony --- a shame he never tackled the sixth.

Totally agree with this. I'd have loved to hear Bernstein in No.6.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 11, 2018, 04:51:50 PM
What is your favorite recorded performance of Serenade to Music?  Who best perfectly captured the essence of the music?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 11, 2018, 06:42:02 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 11, 2018, 04:51:50 PM
What is your favorite recorded performance of Serenade to Music?  Who best perfectly captured the essence of the music?

I'm not sure about 'perfectly captures the essence of the music' but I've always found that Boult's on EMI and Matthew Best's on Hyperion do a remarkable job conveying the gorgeous lyricism of the piece.

[asin]B000002S2R[/asin]

[asin]B003XWFLUG[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 11, 2018, 10:48:21 PM
I think I'm one of the very few admirers of VW (maybe the only one actually) who does not like the 'Serenade to Music'  :o ???
I played it again a couple of days ago as it is on the Bernstein CD with Symphony 4 etc.

I actually enjoyed it more than before, especially the opening but as soon as the singing started my attitude changed. I find it all rather twee and self-congratulatory in a way which is uncharacteristic of the composer.

Actually my VW admiring former colleague also agrees with me and made the 'self-congratulatory' point. No one else will agree I'm sure.

Maybe the problem is that I first came across the work (in the Boult EMI LP set of the symphonies, in the version above posted by John) when I was about 17 and had no real interests or understanding of vocal music. This was probably why for decades I didn't appreciate 'A Sea Symphony' which I now have a very high opinion of. Maybe one day I'll appreciate the 'Serenade to Music'.

For the moment my favourite versions are the orchestral only ones  :o
[asin]B00000IYN1[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 12, 2018, 12:41:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2018, 06:42:02 PM
I'm not sure about 'perfectly captures the essence of the music' but I've always found that Boult's on EMI and Matthew Best's on Hyperion do a remarkable job conveying the gorgeous lyricism of the piece.

[asin]B000002S2R[/asin]

[asin]B003XWFLUG[/asin]

My favourites also.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2018, 06:11:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 11, 2018, 10:48:21 PM
I think I'm one of the very few admirers of VW (maybe the only one actually) who does not like the 'Serenade to Music'  :o ???
I played it again a couple of days ago as it is on the Bernstein CD with Symphony 4 etc.

I actually enjoyed it more than before, especially the opening but as soon as the singing started my attitude changed. I find it all rather twee and self-congratulatory in a way which is uncharacteristic of the composer.

Actually my VW admiring former colleague also agrees with me and made the 'self-congratulatory' point. No one else will agree I'm sure.

Maybe the problem is that I first came across the work (in the Boult EMI LP set of the symphonies, in the version above posted by John) when I was about 17 and had no real interests or understanding of vocal music. This was probably why for decades I didn't appreciate 'A Sea Symphony' which I now have a very high opinion of. Maybe one day I'll appreciate the 'Serenade to Music'.

For the moment my favourite versions are the orchestral only ones  :o
[asin]B00000IYN1[/asin]

I'm not a huge fan of the work either, so you're not alone. I think Vaughan Williams' vocal writing in general is excellent, but my favorite works of his with vocals are Five Mystical Songs, Mass in G minor, Flos campi (!!!), Sancta Civitas, and Dona nobis pacem. Of course, I love the vocalizing in the last movement of A Pastoral Symphony as well. I never have appreciated A Sea Symphony and I don't believe I ever will as it seems, for me, to not capture the composer at his best. I don't hear that kind of individuality I hear in A London Symphony, which, despite its warts, is one of the finest English symphonies for its' time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 13, 2018, 05:08:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 12, 2018, 06:11:17 AM
I'm not a huge fan of the work either, so you're not alone. I think Vaughan Williams' vocal writing in general is excellent, but my favorite works of his with vocals are Five Mystical Songs, Mass in G minor, Flos campi (!!!), Sancta Civitas, and Dona nobis pacem. Of course, I love the vocalizing in the last movement of A Pastoral Symphony as well. I never have appreciated A Sea Symphony and I don't believe I ever will as it seems, for me, to not capture the composer at his best. I don't hear that kind of individuality I hear in A London Symphony, which, despite its warts, is one of the finest English symphonies for its' time.
Interesting. I agree with your preferred VW vocal/choral works to which I'd add the late poetic work 'Epithalamion' which makes wonderful late-night listening. As for A Sea Symphony it was the last movement, in the Haitink version which changed my view of the work although I agree that it is not fully characteristic. I think that his greatest work of all might be the 'Pilgrim's Progress'. I was very lucky to see 'Riders to the Sea' in concert recently - a great experience, especially as the same concert featured Walton's music for Henry V with narrator.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 13, 2018, 06:05:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 13, 2018, 05:08:13 AM
Interesting. I agree with your preferred VW vocal/choral works to which I'd add the late poetic work 'Epithalamion' which makes wonderful late-night listening. As for A Sea Symphony it was the last movement, in the Haitink version which changed my view of the work although I agree that it is not fully characteristic. I think that his greatest work of all might be the 'Pilgrim's Progress'. I was very lucky to see 'Riders to the Sea' in concert recently - a great experience, especially as the same concert featured Walton's music for Henry V with narrator.

Walton is still one of those composers I just don't get on well with. I know you're an admirer of his music, but it seems that the only work I've heard from him that has affected me is his Violin Concerto, which I know you're not crazy about.

Riders of the Sea is a work I need to acquaint myself with. I know it's a short opera, but I recall RVW not being at his best in the operatic field. There are some gorgeous parts of The Pilgrim's Progress, but I've never come away from any of RVW's operas (Sir John in Love, The Poisoned Kiss, etc.) with a better appreciation for the composer. I think he's at his best in orchestral, choral, and chamber music. I wish he had composed more piano music, but I know that he wasn't a gifted pianist or he just didn't have much of an affinity for the instrument in general like other composers.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 13, 2018, 06:34:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2018, 06:05:16 AM
Walton is still one of those composers I just don't get on well with. I know you're an admirer of his music, but it seems that the only work I've heard from him that has affected me is his Violin Concerto, which I know you're not crazy about.

Riders of the Sea is a work I need to acquaint myself with. I know it's a short opera, but I recall RVW not being at his best in the operatic field. There are some gorgeous parts of The Pilgrim's Progress, but I've never come away from any of RVW's operas (Sir John in Love, The Poisoned Kiss, etc.) with a better appreciation for the composer. I think he's at his best in orchestral, choral, and chamber music. I wish he had composed more piano music, but I know that he wasn't a gifted pianist or he just didn't have much of an affinity for the instrument in general like other composers.
I think that Riders to the Sea and Pilgrim's Progress are in a different league to Sir John in Love, The Poisoned Kiss or Hugh the Drover which have too much of 'Merrie England' and 'Ye Olde English Tea Shoppe' about them for my taste.  :P
Also John, Riders to the Sea is not really a conventional opera in any sense - it inhabits, in some respects, the dark world of Symphony 6. As you know I'm not an opera fan at all but I really think that Riders to the Sea and PP are great works.

As for Walton it's the Viola Concerto, Henry V and Symphony No.1 which I rate very highly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 13, 2018, 07:11:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 13, 2018, 06:34:45 AM
I think that Riders to the Sea and Pilgrim's Progress are in a different league to Sir John in Love, The Poisoned Kiss or Hugh the Drover which have too much of 'Merrie England' and 'Ye Olde English Tea Shoppe' about them for my taste.  :P
Also John, Riders to the Sea is not really a conventional opera in any sense - it inhabits, in some respects, the dark world of Symphony 6. As you know I'm not an opera fan at all but I really think that Riders to the Sea and PP are great works.

As for Walton it's the Viola Concerto, Henry V and Symphony No.1 which I rate very highly.

You have me intrigued about Riders to the Sea, Jeffrey. I must revisit it. The comment 'it inhabits, in some respects, the dark world of Symphony No. 6' is what has piqued my curiosity. Thanks for the feedback.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 13, 2018, 08:48:18 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2018, 07:11:07 AM
You have me intrigued about Riders to the Sea, Jeffrey. I must revisit it. The comment 'it inhabits, in some respects, the dark world of Symphony No. 6' is what has piqued my curiosity. Thanks for the feedback.
Always a pleasure John.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on May 13, 2018, 07:22:22 PM
I recently performed On Wenlock Edge (on cello) - what an extraordinary and haunting work! VW's sense of harmony, atmosphere, and word-setting is nothing short of spell-binding. As in many of VW's finest works, there is a compelling synthesis of 'pastoral', modal beauty and dark, anguished chromaticism. I haven't paid much attention to VW's non-orchestral works until recently, and I'm starting to realize that his chamber and vocal output contains as much fine music as his orchestral output does.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 13, 2018, 09:55:51 PM
Quote from: kyjo on May 13, 2018, 07:22:22 PM
I recently performed On Wenlock Edge (on cello) - what an extraordinary and haunting work! VW's sense of harmony, atmosphere, and word-setting is nothing short of spell-binding. As in many of VW's finest works, there is a compelling synthesis of 'pastoral', modal beauty and dark, anguished chromaticism. I haven't paid much attention to VW's non-orchestral works until recently, and I'm starting to realize that his chamber and vocal output contains as much fine music as his orchestral output does.
How wonderful Kyle that you performed On Wenlock Edge!
It's a great work. I also like Songs of Travel, especially in its orchestrated version.  I agree about his chamber work. The late, craggy, Violin Sonata is one of my favourites as well as the two string quartets.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2018, 04:19:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 13, 2018, 06:34:45 AM
As for Walton it's the Viola Concerto, Henry V and Symphony No.1 which I rate very highly.

Add the Violin Concerto, Cello Concerto, Symphony No.2, Belshazzar's Feast, Facade, Partita for Orchestra and Spitfire Prelude and Fugue and you have my list.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 14, 2018, 04:23:26 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 11, 2018, 10:48:21 PM
I think I'm one of the very few admirers of VW (maybe the only one actually) who does not like the 'Serenade to Music'  :o ???
I played it again a couple of days ago as it is on the Bernstein CD with Symphony 4 etc.

I actually enjoyed it more than before, especially the opening but as soon as the singing started my attitude changed. I find it all rather twee and self-congratulatory in a way which is uncharacteristic of the composer.

Actually my VW admiring former colleague also agrees with me and made the 'self-congratulatory' point. No one else will agree I'm sure.

Maybe the problem is that I first came across the work (in the Boult EMI LP set of the symphonies, in the version above posted by John) when I was about 17 and had no real interests or understanding of vocal music. This was probably why for decades I didn't appreciate 'A Sea Symphony' which I now have a very high opinion of. Maybe one day I'll appreciate the 'Serenade to Music'.

For the moment my favourite versions are the orchestral only ones  :o
[asin]B00000IYN1[/asin]
I'm not keen on it (the Serenade) either. I remember saying I liked it here,because I thought everyone one else thought it was sublime,glorious and beyond criticism (the best thing since sliced bread?! ;D) etc!! A bit like posting on the Amazon website,below one of the dvds on offer (in customer reviews) that you think Dr Who or Star Trek,are ridiculously overrated juvenalia! (Naturally,I don't!! ??? ;D) Talk about yellow!! ::) :-[  I even made a cd-r of the Dutton cd of Henry Wood conducting VW,without the Serenade,after vandermolen decided he couldn't contain himself any longer,and revealed (shock horror!) that he didn't (gulp! ::)) like it!!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 14, 2018, 04:51:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2018, 07:11:07 AM
You have me intrigued about Riders to the Sea, Jeffrey. I must revisit it. The comment 'it inhabits, in some respects, the dark world of Symphony No. 6' is what has piqued my curiosity. Thanks for the feedback.

Think of it less as an opera, and more as an intense stage play.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 14, 2018, 06:04:50 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 14, 2018, 04:51:57 AM
Think of it less as an opera, and more as an intense stage play.

Will do, Karl. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 14, 2018, 07:11:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2018, 04:19:49 AM
Add the Violin Concerto, Cello Concerto, Symphony No.2, Belshazzar's Feast, Facade, Partita for Orchestra and Spitfire Prelude and Fugue and you have my list.

Sarge

OT

Actually I like all those works although I much prefer the Viola Concerto to the better known Violin Concerto. The film music for 'As You Like It' and Hamlet is another favourite. Yes, I often listen to Symphony 2 and increasingly admire it, especially in the George Szell recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 14, 2018, 07:15:56 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 14, 2018, 04:23:26 AM
I'm not keen on it (the Serenade) either. I remember saying I liked it here,because I thought everyone one else thought it was sublime,glorious and beyond criticism (the best thing since sliced bread?! ;D) etc!! A bit like posting on the Amazon website,below one of the dvds on offer (in customer reviews) that you think Dr Who or Star Trek,are ridiculously overrated juvenalia! (Naturally,I don't!! ??? ;D) Talk about yellow!! ::) :-[  I even made a cd-r of the Dutton cd of Henry Wood conducting VW,without the Serenade,after vandermolen decided he couldn't contain himself any longer,and revealed (shock horror!) that he didn't (gulp! ::)) like it!!!
Haha - I'm delighted cilgwyn that you've finally come 'out of the closet' in relation to 'Serenade to Music'.

A very popular TV show which I can't stand (my students loved it) is the smug and knowing 'Sherlock' with Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman.

Bring back Basil Rathbone  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2018, 04:13:46 AM
 ;D Yes,I'm a bit of a fan of that old Basil Rathbone film series (You amaze me Holmes! ;D). (I've got the boxed set!!) If I have to watch a 60's US sci-fi show I'd rather watch The Invaders or the old b & w Twilight Zone,for that matter. When it comes to sci-fi,it's mainly the 50's for me!! Benedict Cumberbotch,though?!! I'm not a fan of the old  Granada series;but at least Jeremy Brett did look the part!

Regarding the operas. They do have some lovely music in them which stops me from taking them to the charity shop! I prefer VW to Britten;but there's no doubt,in my mind,that Britten has a feel for drama that is lacking in the former's efforts. On the plus side;VW has more warmth. I can see (hear) why they have fallen by the wayside. The Pilgrims Progress,I do like;in all it's various incarnations. The recording released by Albion of the old radio broadcast was a particularly wonderful,and unexpected,addition to my collection. I remember wishing someone would release it on cd,when I read the notes accompanying the Hyperion cd (with Gielgud). I also recall thinking,dolefully,that it was probably unlikely! Fortunately,I was proved wrong! And sooner than I expected!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2018, 04:25:02 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 15, 2018, 04:13:46 AM
Regarding the operas. They do have some lovely music in them which stops me from taking them to the charity shop!

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2018, 05:19:04 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 30, 2007, 02:41:14 AM
Here's my list:

No 1 Boult (Decca)

No 2 Previn (RCA), Boult (EMI), Barbirolli (EMI, I know many prefer the earlier Dutton), Hickox (orig version 1913) Chandos, Handley (EMI not CFP version)

No 3 Previn (RCA)

No 4 Berglund (EMI), Thomson (Chandos) Mitropoulos (Sony)

No 5 Barbirolli (EMI) Hickox (Chandos)

No 6 Abravanel (Vanguard), Boult (Decca) Stokowski (Cala), Berglund (HMV n/a)

No 7 Barbirolli (EMI), Haitink (EMI)

No 8 Previn (RCA)

No 9 Stokowski (Cala), Boult (EMI or Decca/Everest), Slatkin (RCA), Thomson (Chandos)
Ooh,I didn't know Abravanel had recorded the Sixth! He's a favourite of mine!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2018, 05:31:26 AM
Just saw vandermolen's post on Musicweb's Message Board. So,you liked Blood,Sweat & Tears,too (I still do!). I like the idea of Cumberland being passed off as the Antarctic. Presumably,you found out,when you looked at the small print?! ::) ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/QpXlhOP.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 15, 2018, 06:27:53 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 15, 2018, 05:31:26 AM
Just saw vandermolen's post on Musicweb's Message Board. So,you liked Blood,Sweat & Tears,too (I still do!). I like the idea of Cumberland being passed off as the Antarctic. Presumably,you found out,when you looked at the small print?! ::) ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/QpXlhOP.jpg)
Gosh I'd forgotten about my BS and T Musicweb post - yes, a great band.

I'd like you to think that my eagle eye immediately identified the Cumberland location of the Decca Eclipse 'Sinfonia Antartica' but you're quite right - I read the small print. Symphony 6 had Blea Tarn (or is it BlaeTarn? ) in the Lake District as an appropriately craggy cover image for Symphony 6 (the same location features on the front of the Naxos CD featuring symphonies 3 and 6). That's why I always associate that symphony with bleak, craggy landscapes of the North of England rather than with post nuclear Armageddon.
Seeing those Decca Eclipse VW LPs is quite a nostalgia trip. I think that they used National Trust landscape locations apart from A London Symphony I guess.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 15, 2018, 06:31:15 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 15, 2018, 05:19:04 AM
Ooh,I didn't know Abravanel had recorded the Sixth! He's a favourite of mine!
My spies tell me that it will be reissued soon cilgwyn.
:)

PS I'd now choose Haitink for my No.1 choice for 'A Sea Symphony'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2018, 06:41:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 15, 2018, 06:31:15 AM
PS I'd now choose Haitink for my No.1 choice for 'A Sea Symphony'.

(* pounds the table *)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2018, 06:56:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 15, 2018, 06:31:15 AMPS I'd now choose Haitink for my No.1 choice for 'A Sea Symphony'.

I'll have to revisit Haitink's A Sea Symphony. I'm not a great fan of his cycle (sluggish tempi, almost a Germanized approach to the music), but I do recall his performance of A Sea Symphony being one of his better performances.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2018, 07:00:41 AM
I must put some B S & Tears again,before long. I recently acquired their first album,Child is father to the man. The first one I heard,before that chap with the really great voice took over. I like their first effort,though. Rock,big band,blues,jazz. What a combination!!

I like the photos on the front of those Decca eclipse albums......Lp's,I should say. I'm not sure that some of them weren't messed up by that fad for electronic stereo? I could be wrong,though? Maybe,it was a different series. I remember saying how much I liked a Boult recording of a VW symphony (maybe here?). Someone pointed out that the recording was great,but the Lp was in "electronic stereo"! Oh dear,I hadn't noticed!!! ::) :-[ I remember the famous recording of Lehar's Die Lustige Witwe (not your cup of tea) with Schwarzkopf in this reprocessed stereo. She sounded like she was singing in a very echoey bathroom. I subsequently discovered that she wasn't!! Also,a Sarah Vaughan Lp which sounded like she was singing down a drainpipe. Both recordings were originally mono! Also a Kiss me Kate soundtrack album. They always sounded horrible,in other words! Yet,they seem to have persisted in this practice for some years. Awful dubbing of foreign movies in english was the movie equivalent! Hilariously,here in Wales,they actually tried dubbing famous movies into Welsh! They got as far as three before the mickey taking got too much!! *Dracula and Shane speaking in Welsh just sounded funny! ;D

I recently enjoyed hearing Abravanel's recording of William Schumann's Seventh. I recorded it onto a cd-r,via Youtube. I didn't know he'd recorded that one. He was quite adventurous,though!

*Frankenstein,actually. And hello,someone uploaded an excerpt to Youtube! Frankenstein must be destroyed in Welsh! (And why not?!! ;D)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFGk44P2YYM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFGk44P2YYM)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2018, 08:16:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2018, 06:56:42 AM
I'll have to revisit Haitink's A Sea Symphony. I'm not a great fan of his cycle (sluggish tempi, almost a Germanized approach to the music), but I do recall his performance of A Sea Symphony being one of his better performances.
That is the one performance I really liked. It's interesting to have another perspective on these symphonies;but after listening to a couple of Haitink's recordings,I really warm to them. His performance of the Sea Symphony is my first call for that symphony now,though!
I seem to have been,somewhat side tracked in my previous post!!!! :o ::) I hope the Abravanel Schumann Seventh is one of the recordings that is going to be reissued,though (according to vandermolen's friends in the secret service! ??? ;D). I haven't seen a cd of that. I look forward to his VW No 6,though.
Those Decca eclipse VW releases were nice,though. I was just looking at some of them. This one,for example!

(https://i.imgur.com/z89uYgn.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 15, 2018, 08:27:00 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2018, 06:56:42 AM
I'll have to revisit Haitink's A Sea Symphony. I'm not a great fan of his cycle (sluggish tempi, almost a Germanized approach to the music), but I do recall his performance of A Sea Symphony being one of his better performances.
I think that's the greatest performance in the set John although I like No.6 as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 15, 2018, 08:38:20 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 15, 2018, 08:16:28 AM
That is the one performance I really liked. It's interesting to have another perspective on these symphonies;but after listening to a couple of Haitink's recordings,I really warm to them. His performance of the Sea Symphony is my first call for that symphony now,though!
I seem to have been,somewhat side tracked in my previous post!!!! :o ::) I hope the Abravanel Schumann Seventh is one of the recordings that is going to be reissued,though (according to vandermolen's friends in the secret service! ??? ;D). I haven't seen a cd of that. I look forward to his VW No 6,though.
Those Decca eclipse VW releases were nice,though. I was just looking at some of them. This one,for example!

(https://i.imgur.com/z89uYgn.jpg)

As for dubbing, as a child on holiday in Belgium, I guess, my parents took me to the cinema see 'Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein' dubbed in French with Flemish subtitles. Talking of Welsh have you see that excellent film 'Their Finest'. I thought it excellent. Now, we mustn't hijack this thread cilgwyn so back to VW.

The current issue of the RVW Journal features a whole article on that Decca Eclipse LP of Job - a truly great performance, now on Belart or Australian Decca Eloquence. Of course it's dedicated to Boult who recorded it four times as far as I'm aware. You're quite right about the electronic stereo. I think the back of the LP had a small hole and through it you could tell, according to the colour, if it was electronic stereo or not. The Decca Eclipse Symphony 8 by VW was the only one actually recorded in stereo which is probably why Decca issued it on a 'Legendary Performances' CD, coupled with Rachmaninov's Third Symphony, also conducted by Boult.

No, I won't be dashing out to get the electronic stereo version, or any other, of the  Lehar recital.  :P

PS 'Frankenstein must be Destroyed' is not one of the finest of the Hammer cycle. One review just commented 'Hear Hear'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 16, 2018, 12:24:56 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 15, 2018, 08:16:28 AM
That is the one performance I really liked. It's interesting to have another perspective on these symphonies;but after listening to a couple of Haitink's recordings,I really warm to them. His performance of the Sea Symphony is my first call for that symphony now,though!
I seem to have been,somewhat side tracked in my previous post!!!! :o ::) I hope the Abravanel Schumann Seventh is one of the recordings that is going to be reissued,though (according to vandermolen's friends in the secret service! ??? ;D). I haven't seen a cd of that. I look forward to his VW No 6,though.
Those Decca eclipse VW releases were nice,though. I was just looking at some of them. This one,for example!

(https://i.imgur.com/z89uYgn.jpg)

I feel a bit cheated now to learn that Decca didn't send out an expedition to photograph the Beardmore Glacier especially for the Sinfonia Antartica release! I suppose Castlerigg is more acceptable for Job. I also seem to remember some Decca LP with the Langdale Pikes on the cover but I can't remember which one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 16, 2018, 12:58:48 AM
EMI have been a bit more adventurous over the years. For Boult in 1970 the LP has a watercolour (?) of Mount Erebus by Dr E. A. Wilson, the CD release has icebergs (location unspecified). For Handley (Eminence release) they have ice floes, also unspecified. For Barbirolli CD reissue they have another painting (penguins) by Wilson and more Wilson (sledge hauling) for Haitink. The latter two are from Scott's  earlier expedition (1901-04) and so possibly is the Boult cover as well.

For the recent Andrew Davis recording, Chandos have a photo of Scott's ship, Terra Nova, seen in the distance through an ice cave.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 03:58:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 15, 2018, 08:38:20 AM
As for dubbing, as a child on holiday in Belgium, I guess, my parents took me to the cinema see 'Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein' dubbed in French with Flemish subtitles. Talking of Welsh have you see that excellent film 'Their Finest'. I thought it excellent. Now, we mustn't hijack this thread cilgwyn so back to VW.

The current issue of the RVW Journal features a whole article on that Decca Eclipse LP of Job - a truly great performance, now on Belart or Australian Decca Eloquence. Of course it's dedicated to Boult who recorded it four times as far as I'm aware. You're quite right about the electronic stereo. I think the back of the LP had a small hole and through it you could tell, according to the colour, if it was electronic stereo or not. The Decca Eclipse Symphony 8 by VW was the only one actually recorded in stereo which is probably why Decca issued it on a 'Legendary Performances' CD, coupled with Rachmaninov's Third Symphony, also conducted by Boult.

No, I won't be dashing out to get the electronic stereo version, or any other, of the  Lehar recital.  :P

PS 'Frankenstein must be Destroyed' is not one of the finest of the Hammer cycle. One review just commented 'Hear Hear'.
So,they gave you a choice and I may have been listening to the original mono version? That makes me feel better! Electronic stereo was horrible. It just sounded echoey,or someone singing down a drain pipe! I was reading recently how pop albums were released in mono versions,as well,because they had some idea that stereo Lp's wouldn't reproduce satisfactorily on mono record players (like a Dansette,for instance).
I actually do like Abbott and Costello meets Frankenstein. Seeing those classic universal horror monsters drawn into really dumb vaudeville routines is fun. I also like the joke at the end,in the boat,with the Invisible man (voiced by Vincent Price) just when they think they've got away!! In French with Flemish subtitles,though?! ::) Of course,I can't forget torturing my mother and sister by insisting on watching The Water Margin every week on BBC2,when I was a teenager. Miriam Margoyles and a host of other english actors putting on cod Chinese voices. Very un pc,these days! Burt Kwouk as a notable exception,voicing the narration. They made me watch I Claudius,though!! >:(
The dubbers may not have been off the mark about Shane,according to the notes under that video. Apparently,there were quite allot of Welsh speaking cowboys,and gun slingers too! Of course it's not so surprising,really,when you think about it. I'm not so sure whether there would be many Welsh speakers where Baron Frankenstein lives,though?!!! :-\ ;D
On that Decca eclipse Lp of VW's Boult. I also like the nifty way the colour at the top matches the hue of the stones. By the way,what is the stone circle pictured? I suppose I should know?! A confession here. I haven't heard that performance. The Belart cd's are usually pretty cheap.

I've been looking at some of the Decca eclipse Lp's on ebay. They really do have some lovely cover photos. Lakes,rivers,mountains,beautiful buildings in breathtaking landscapes or leafy surroundings,always beautifully shot.......and lots of trees and woods. I love woods! And the Holst,you mentioned before! Not the BBCSO performance,but just the kind of cover shot I like. And it's just appropriate somehow? Stonehenge and theories about ancient astronomy (although Holst was inspired by astrology). As to the Bliss Lp. Again,look how the colour at the top matches the hue of the flowers!! ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/3bUjFeZ.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/QKnNNVK.jpg)    (https://i.imgur.com/FaSnKbR.jpg)    (https://i.imgur.com/psh0K7c.jpg) Oops,some Beethoven,too! But such a nice shot!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 04:52:35 AM
I'll remove the photos later,as you just get the jpeg stock photo,or something,when they to ditch the free account! But the Decca eclipse photos were nice. Chandos also had some beautiful landscapes fronting their Bax and Moeran series.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 16, 2018, 05:07:00 AM
Quote from: Oates on May 16, 2018, 12:24:56 AM
I feel a bit cheated now to learn that Decca didn't send out an expedition to photograph the Beardmore Glacier especially for the Sinfonia Antartica release! I suppose Castlerigg is more acceptable for Job. I also seem to remember some Decca LP with the Langdale Pikes on the cover but I can't remember which one.
In view of your name you clearly have a strong emotional tie to Scott's ill-fated expedition.
EMI used one of Edward Wilson's drawings I think for the Haitink recording of Sinfonia Antartica.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 16, 2018, 05:13:01 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 16, 2018, 12:58:48 AM
EMI have been a bit more adventurous over the years. For Boult in 1970 the LP has a watercolour (?) of Mount Erebus by Dr E. A. Wilson, the CD release has icebergs (location unspecified). For Handley (Eminence release) they have ice floes, also unspecified. For Barbirolli CD reissue they have another painting (penguins) by Wilson and more Wilson (sledge hauling) for Haitink. The latter two are from Scott's  earlier expedition (1901-04) and so possibly is the Boult cover as well.

For the recent Andrew Davis recording, Chandos have a photo of Scott's ship, Terra Nova, seen in the distance through an ice cave.
Oh, I didn't read this before posting my message - there was also a bizarre CD containing Boult's early recording with a photo of members of the expedition on the front cover (not the classic one of them all looking dejected at the Pole). The CD is bizarre as it also featured Shackleton making a remarkably uninteresting speech in the upper class English accent also shared by Vaughan Williams. Bax, like Shostakovich had a rather high-pitched, squeaky voice. The CD also featured a 'sing-a-long' song about the Scott expedition. I decided not to join in. Just in case you missed it the song features at the beginning and end of the CD!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2018, 05:14:09 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 16, 2018, 05:13:01 AM
[...] The CD also featured a 'sing-a-long' song about the Scott expedition. I decided not to join in.

The things I learn here at GMG  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 16, 2018, 05:19:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 04:52:35 AM
I'll remove the photos later,as you just get the jpeg stock photo,or something,when they to ditch the free account! But the Decca eclipse photos were nice. Chandos also had some beautiful landscapes fronting their Bax and Moeran series.

Cilgwyn, thank you so much for posting those images. I have a strong emotional attachment to the VW Decca Eclipse Boult Symphony 6 as my encounter with it in WH Smith in the Earl's Court Road in c.1971/2 changed my life forever. That speech at the end was just an added bonus. I owned all those LPs apart from Beethoven and recall buying the Bliss when I was working in a school in Harrow in the late 70s or early 80s.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 16, 2018, 05:21:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2018, 05:14:09 AM
The things I learn here at GMG  8)

'Pounds the table'  ;D ;D

I'm never sure Karl if your dramatic 'pounds the table' interventions are signs of approval or disapproval. In my case it's the former. Look out for that Captain Scott sing-along song.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 05:30:11 AM
I can't pound my table,as it's a folding one,and it will probably collapse!! :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 16, 2018, 05:38:47 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 05:30:11 AM
I can't pound my table,as it's a folding one,and it will probably collapse!! :(

:) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 16, 2018, 06:01:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 03:58:52 AMBy the way,what is the stone circle pictured? I suppose I should know?

As I mentioned in my earlier post, the stone circle is Castlerigg near Keswick.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 16, 2018, 06:06:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 03:58:52 AM
So,they gave you a choice and I may have been listening to the original mono version? That makes me feel better! Electronic stereo was horrible. It just sounded echoey,or someone singing down a drain pipe! I was reading recently how pop albums were released in mono versions,as well,because they had some idea that stereo Lp's wouldn't reproduce satisfactorily on mono record players (like a Dansette,for instance).
I actually do like Abbott and Costello meets Frankenstein. Seeing those classic universal horror monsters drawn into really dumb vaudeville routines is fun. I also like the joke at the end,in the boat,with the Invisible man (voiced by Vincent Price) just when they think they've got away!! In French with Flemish subtitles,though?! ::) Of course,I can't forget torturing my mother and sister by insisting on watching The Water Margin every week on BBC2,when I was a teenager. Miriam Margoyles and a host of other english actors putting on cod Chinese voices. Very un pc,these days! Burt Kwouk as a notable exception,voicing the narration. They made me watch I Claudius,though!! >:(
The dubbers may not have been off the mark about Shane,according to the notes under that video. Apparently,there were quite allot of Welsh speaking cowboys,and gun slingers too! Of course it's not so surprising,really,when you think about it. I'm not so sure whether there would be many Welsh speakers where Baron Frankenstein lives,though?!!! :-\ ;D
On that Decca eclipse Lp of VW's Boult. I also like the nifty way the colour at the top matches the hue of the stones. By the way,what is the stone circle pictured? I suppose I should know?! A confession here. I haven't heard that performance. The Belart cd's are usually pretty cheap.

I've been looking at some of the Decca eclipse Lp's on ebay. They really do have some lovely cover photos. Lakes,rivers,mountains,beautiful buildings in breathtaking landscapes or leafy surroundings,always beautifully shot.......and lots of trees and woods. I love woods! And the Holst,you mentioned before! Not the BBCSO performance,but just the kind of cover shot I like. And it's just appropriate somehow? Stonehenge and theories about ancient astronomy (although Holst was inspired by astrology). As to the Bliss Lp. Again,look how the colour at the top matches the hue of the flowers!! ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/3bUjFeZ.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/QKnNNVK.jpg)    (https://i.imgur.com/FaSnKbR.jpg)    (https://i.imgur.com/psh0K7c.jpg) Oops,some Beethoven,too! But such a nice shot!

Decca Eclipse VW Symphony No.6 cover is of the Langdale Pikes - but not the one I remembered...There must be another.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 06:56:58 AM
That's the only Decca eclipse sleeve of that recording of the Boult Sixth I can find. There were other Lp reissues with different sleeve designs and photos.
What's on the front of this one,by the way? I'm trying to make it out. It's like one of those quiz game pictures. Is it anything? I probably just need new spectacles! :( ::) ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/oQRX8sN.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 16, 2018, 07:19:50 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 06:56:58 AM
That's the only Decca eclipse sleeve of that recording of the Boult Sixth I can find. There were other Lp reissues with different sleeve designs and photos.
What's on the front of this one,by the way? I'm trying to make it out. It's like one of those quiz game pictures. Is it anything? I probably just need new spectacles! :( ::) ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/oQRX8sN.jpg)

It is quite clearly the 'stuff dreams are made on' - very bad dreams.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 08:22:48 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 16, 2018, 07:19:50 AM
It is quite clearly the 'stuff dreams are made on' - very bad dreams.
Yes! ;D I'm thinking that could be a foot on the left?1 I also tried blurring my eyes a bit and stepping a few paces back from the screen!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Baron Scarpia on May 16, 2018, 08:25:58 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 16, 2018, 07:19:50 AM
It is quite clearly the 'stuff dreams are made on' - very bad dreams.
Someone got paid to put that cover together.  ???
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 16, 2018, 08:58:14 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 08:22:48 AM
Yes! ;D I'm thinking that could be a foot on the left?1 I also tried blurring my eyes a bit and stepping a few paces back from the screen!
It does look like a foot - possibly attached to a motor-cycle. VW was a well-known biker so it's quite an appropriate image really.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 16, 2018, 02:19:27 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 16, 2018, 05:07:00 AM
In view of your name you clearly have a strong emotional tie to Scott's ill-fated expedition.
EMI used one of Edward Wilson's drawings I think for the Haitink recording of Sinfonia Antartica.

Yes, I got very interested in polar exploration as a result of the Sinfonia Antartica and film score.

I also have this DVD of Antarctic footage set to the RVW symphony.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Sinfonia-Antartica-DVD/dp/0958230331/ref=sr_1_2?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1526509008&sr=1-2&keywords=Sinfonia+Antartica
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 16, 2018, 05:03:33 PM
Quote from: Oates on May 16, 2018, 02:19:27 PM
Yes, I got very interested in polar exploration as a result of the Sinfonia Antartica and film score.

I also have this DVD of Antarctic footage set to the RVW symphony.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Sinfonia-Antartica-DVD/dp/0958230331/ref=sr_1_2?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1526509008&sr=1-2&keywords=Sinfonia+Antartica

Good for you.  We have much in common.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 16, 2018, 09:51:05 PM
Quote from: Oates on May 16, 2018, 02:19:27 PM
Yes, I got very interested in polar exploration as a result of the Sinfonia Antartica and film score.

I also have this DVD of Antarctic footage set to the RVW symphony.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Sinfonia-Antartica-DVD/dp/0958230331/ref=sr_1_2?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1526509008&sr=1-2&keywords=Sinfonia+Antartica

How interesting - never seen that before. I think that I've read most books on the Scott expedition including Roland Huntford's hatchet job on Scott. Maybe I'll start a Scott thread.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 16, 2018, 10:40:08 PM
In fact an early memory of mine is sitting down to watch a TV broadcast of Scott of the Antarctic - first time I'd seen the film, I must have been aged 10 or so, and my Dad saying before it started "Good music in this film - listen out for it." He was right, of course, though I doubt he consciously knew of RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 17, 2018, 12:11:01 AM
Looks like a naked woman on a motorbike to me - but maybe that's just my overheated imagination ...

The last of those Eclipse sleeves (Beethoven) could be Ullswater.

There's a Scott memorial in a very unexpected place, high in the French Alps (he did some hard-weather training and trialled a motorised sled there).
(https://www.jardinalpindulautaret.fr/sites/sajf/files/commemorationscottmars2008-774dd.jpg)
(http://transpolair.free.fr/explorateurs/charcot/traineau/lautaret_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 17, 2018, 02:31:10 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 16, 2018, 03:58:52 AM
So,they gave you a choice and I may have been listening to the original mono version? That makes me feel better! Electronic stereo was horrible. It just sounded echoey,or someone singing down a drain pipe! I was reading recently how pop albums were released in mono versions,as well,because they had some idea that stereo Lp's wouldn't reproduce satisfactorily on mono record players (like a Dansette,for instance).
I actually do like Abbott and Costello meets Frankenstein. Seeing those classic universal horror monsters drawn into really dumb vaudeville routines is fun. I also like the joke at the end,in the boat,with the Invisible man (voiced by Vincent Price) just when they think they've got away!! In French with Flemish subtitles,though?! ::) Of course,I can't forget torturing my mother and sister by insisting on watching The Water Margin every week on BBC2,when I was a teenager. Miriam Margoyles and a host of other english actors putting on cod Chinese voices. Very un pc,these days! Burt Kwouk as a notable exception,voicing the narration. They made me watch I Claudius,though!! >:(
The dubbers may not have been off the mark about Shane,according to the notes under that video. Apparently,there were quite allot of Welsh speaking cowboys,and gun slingers too! Of course it's not so surprising,really,when you think about it. I'm not so sure whether there would be many Welsh speakers where Baron Frankenstein lives,though?!!! :-\ ;D
On that Decca eclipse Lp of VW's Boult. I also like the nifty way the colour at the top matches the hue of the stones. By the way,what is the stone circle pictured? I suppose I should know?! A confession here. I haven't heard that performance. The Belart cd's are usually pretty cheap.

I've been looking at some of the Decca eclipse Lp's on ebay. They really do have some lovely cover photos. Lakes,rivers,mountains,beautiful buildings in breathtaking landscapes or leafy surroundings,always beautifully shot.......and lots of trees and woods. I love woods! And the Holst,you mentioned before! Not the BBCSO performance,but just the kind of cover shot I like. And it's just appropriate somehow? Stonehenge and theories about ancient astronomy (although Holst was inspired by astrology). As to the Bliss Lp. Again,look how the colour at the top matches the hue of the flowers!! ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/3bUjFeZ.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/QKnNNVK.jpg)    (https://i.imgur.com/FaSnKbR.jpg)    (https://i.imgur.com/psh0K7c.jpg) Oops,some Beethoven,too! But such a nice shot!

The Bliss cover is Loch Torridon in the Scottish Highlands. The last one could well be Ullswater.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 17, 2018, 02:54:19 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 17, 2018, 12:11:01 AM
Looks like a naked woman on a motorbike to me - but maybe that's just my overheated imagination ...

The last of those Eclipse sleeves (Beethoven) could be Ullswater.

There's a Scott memorial in a very unexpected place, high in the French Alps (he did some hard-weather training and trialled a motorised sled there).
(https://www.jardinalpindulautaret.fr/sites/sajf/files/commemorationscottmars2008-774dd.jpg)
(http://transpolair.free.fr/explorateurs/charcot/traineau/lautaret_1.jpg)

Yes, I'm sure your right about the LP cover!  :)
Interesting about the Scott memorial in the French Alps - never knew about that. When I was at school I was in charge of the Film Society (until it was closed down as some naughty pupils were smoking during the screenings). Anyway, I showed Scott of the Antarctic as one of the films - I must have been about 17 so it was at the early stage of my enthusiasm for VW's music. I like the film although it is very much of its time. I remember the film director Ken Russell being very rude about the film commenting that 'the best actors were the Penguins'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 17, 2018, 03:10:01 AM
I can't see a naked woman;but I can make out what looks like a woman's high heel,with a strap!! It could be resting on a pedal? And that roundish bit towards the front might just be a motorbike wheel?! It does look like she's just about to tear off,or perhaps just parked alongside a roadside café (or joint?).

(https://i.imgur.com/7GaiuTu.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 17, 2018, 04:27:19 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 17, 2018, 03:10:01 AM
I can't see a naked woman;but I can make out what looks like a woman's high heel,with a strap!! It could be resting on a pedal? And that roundish bit towards the front might just be a motorbike wheel?! It does look like she's just about to tear off,or perhaps just parked alongside a roadside café (or joint?).

(https://i.imgur.com/7GaiuTu.jpg)


I found a copy for sale on ebay that had an image of the back cover. After downloading the image and expanding it I found 'Sleeve design by Decca Publicity Art Department' - so, none the wiser.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 17, 2018, 04:47:18 AM
To be fair,it certainly wins a prize for the most baffling sleeve design? It's the fact that it looks like it could be something? It's not just an abstract design or painting. It looks like a bit like one of those quiz show games,where you have to guess what it is? I also have speculated that it is a blurred view of a building from below. A cathedral,perhaps? A deliberate attempt to obfuscate? I like to think it's an attractive lady on a motorbike,myself! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 17, 2018, 05:12:11 AM
I must admit I haven't heard the Barbirolli recording. How does that compare to the Boult (for example)? I seem to remember it's part of a 2 cd set. Another recording I have considered buying is the Vernon Handley . I like his VW cycle,generally.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 17, 2018, 06:06:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 16, 2018, 05:13:01 AM
Oh, I didn't read this before posting my message - there was also a bizarre CD containing Boult's early recording with a photo of members of the expedition on the front cover (not the classic one of them all looking dejected at the Pole). The CD is bizarre as it also featured Shackleton making a remarkably uninteresting speech in the upper class English accent also shared by Vaughan Williams. Bax, like Shostakovich had a rather high-pitched, squeaky voice. The CD also featured a 'sing-a-long' song about the Scott expedition. I decided not to join in. Just in case you missed it the song features at the beginning and end of the CD!

The singalong song sounds seriously weird given the inherent tragedy of the event - maybe it stems from the days (pre-Roland Huntford) when this was seen as spiritually uplifting and morale boosting patriotic affair. Or maybe the song was a pre-Eurovision ode to sneaky Norskis and their underhand ways!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 17, 2018, 06:36:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 17, 2018, 05:12:11 AM
I must admit I haven't heard the Barbirolli recording. How does that compare to the Boult (for example)? I seem to remember it's part of a 2 cd set. Another recording I have considered buying is the Vernon Handley . I like his VW cycle,generally.
Barbirolli recording of what? Not sure if you mean Sinfonia Antartica, Symphony 6 or the Laughing Policeman Song.

I'll assume the former as it is or was part of a fine EMI two CD set.

Barbirolli conducted the premiere. It's a fine atmospheric version which I wouldn't be without. Having said that, Barbirolli's somewhat warmer way with VW's music doesn't, in my opinion, suit the bleak, icy wilderness of the South Polar plateau. I think that Boult's more objective approach suits Sinfonia Antartica wonderfully (Decca version).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 17, 2018, 06:39:48 AM
Quote from: Oates on May 17, 2018, 06:06:49 AM
The singalong song sounds seriously weird given the inherent tragedy of the event - maybe it stems from the days (pre-Roland Huntford) when this was seen as spiritually uplifting and morale boosting patriotic affair. Or maybe the song was a pre-Eurovision ode to sneaky Norskis and their underhand ways!

Well, here's a link to a review of that bizarre CD, written by me actually  0:)

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Oct11/antartica_CD41024.htm

I think the cover photo could be of Shackleton and Wilson rather than Scott but he could be there too - who knows?

PS It is Scott as well - I just read the review!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 17, 2018, 07:01:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 17, 2018, 06:39:48 AM
Well, here's a link to a review of that bizarre CD, written by me actually  0:)

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Oct11/antartica_CD41024.htm

I think the cover photo could be of Shackleton and Wilson rather than Scott but he could be there too - who knows?

PS It is Scott as well - I just read the review!

Fine review, many thanks for the link.

The photo is of (l to r) Shackleton, Scott and Wilson.

The excerpts conducted by Ernest Irving are also available on a Dutton disc 'from Vaughan Williams' attic'.

The Boult 1953 recording was the first I ever heard, I bought the later stereo Boult recording. I don't like the spoken superscripts, Previn originally had them as well (Ralph Richardson). RVW never intended them to be spoken - movements 3 & 4 are to be played without a break - though earlier postings suggest he authorised (or acquiesced) in early performances with them.

Edit: The album is available on Spotify. The song has a whiff of D'Oyly Carte about it. I think Shackleton's items are fairly (!) interesting but his delivery is boring, possibly he wasn't used to making recordings. His accent wasn't as bad as I expected from your comments.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 17, 2018, 08:23:46 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 17, 2018, 06:36:24 AM
Barbirolli recording of what? Not sure if you mean Sinfonia Antartica, Symphony 6 or the Laughing Policeman Song.

I'll assume the former as it is or was part of a fine EMI two CD set.

Barbirolli conducted the premiere. It's a fine atmospheric version which I wouldn't be without. Having said that, Barbirolli's somewhat warmer way with VW's music doesn't, in my opinion, suit the bleak, icy wilderness of the South Polar plateau. I think that Boult's more objective approach suits Sinfonia Antartica wonderfully (Decca version).
Sorry,vandermolen. That was a sloppy post for me! I was referring to Barbirolli's recording of the Sinfonia Antarctica. I would like to hear his recording of the Laughing Policeman,though! ;D Your description does convey the recording I might expect from him.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 17, 2018, 09:52:44 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 17, 2018, 07:01:18 AM
Fine review, many thanks for the link.

The photo is of (l to r) Shackleton, Scott and Wilson.

The excerpts conducted by Ernest Irving are also available on a Dutton disc 'from Vaughan Williams' attic'.

The Boult 1953 recording was the first I ever heard, I bought the later stereo Boult recording. I don't like the spoken superscripts, Previn originally had them as well (Ralph Richardson). RVW never intended them to be spoken - movements 3 & 4 are to be played without a break - though earlier postings suggest he authorised (or acquiesced) in early performances with them.

Edit: The album is available on Spotify. The song has a whiff of D'Oyly Carte about it. I think Shackleton's items are fairly (!) interesting but his delivery is boring, possibly he wasn't used to making recordings. His accent wasn't as bad as I expected from your comments.
Thanks - glad you liked the review. Pity we have no recording of Scott. Ralph Richardson had a sore throat on the day of the recording. It makes you want to cough-along to the music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 18, 2018, 06:39:50 AM
I must admit I haven't felt like that about his narration. I did start thinking his voice might be a bit gruff after you mentioned that in an earlier post. If I have a packet of Fisherman's Friends open on the table,the next time I listen,I'll know who to blame! ;D
Having said that,I didn't know he actually did have a sore throat! Frankly,I'm quite happy with his narration. I prefer Gielgud,though;and the mono sound seems to add a feeling of foreboding;although,that may be just my imagination. Like those old black and white films that you know wouldn't have been quite so good in colour! I suppose there will be another Sinfonia Antartica eventually. Please don't let it be Simon Callow!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2018, 07:11:54 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 18, 2018, 06:39:50 AM
I must admit I haven't felt like that about his narration. I did start thinking his voice might be a bit gruff after you mentioned that in an earlier post. If I have a packet of Fisherman's Friends open on the table,the next time I listen,I'll know who to blame! ;D
Having said that,I didn't know he actually did have a sore throat! Frankly,I'm quite happy with his narration. I prefer Gielgud,though;and the mono sound seems to add a feeling of foreboding;although,that may be just my imagination. Like those old black and white films that you know wouldn't have been quite so good in colour! I suppose there will be another Sinfonia Antartica eventually. Please don't let it be Simon Callow!!

LOL (Fisherman's Friend comment). No, please not Simon Callow - although I'm sure that even he will be better than Mrs Thatcher narrating the Lincoln Portrait.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 18, 2018, 07:27:38 AM
I am not a fan of works that have a narration, even a minimal one like the SA. I have never made it to the end of the Elder/Halle recording of The  Wasps with its interminable narration. Also, I don't like An Oxford Elegy though it is years since I heard it and only have it on LP. I know a lot of people think very highly of Bliss' Morning Heroes but again the narration kills it for me.

Oddly (perversely?) I don't mind spoken dialogue in operas as long as there isn't too much of it and, preferably, it is in a foreign language.

To be even more inconsistent (or perverse) I didn't mind Simon Callow in the recent recording of Martinu's Epic of Gilgamesh.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2018, 07:42:27 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 18, 2018, 07:27:38 AM
I am not a fan of works that have a narration, even a minimal one like the SA. I have never made it to the end of the Elder/Halle recording of The  Wasps with its interminable narration. Also, I don't like An Oxford Elegy though it is years since I heard it and only have it on LP. I know a lot of people think very highly of Bliss' Morning Heroes but again the narration kills it for me.

Oddly (perversely?) I don't mind spoken dialogue in operas as long as there isn't too much of it and, preferably, it is in a foreign language.

To be even more inconsistent (or perverse) I didn't mind Simon Callow in the recent recording of Martinu's Epic of Gilgamesh.
Actually, you are right about Simon Callow's Martinu narration - it was much better than all his mock-Dickensian over-acting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 18, 2018, 07:49:51 AM
Approval, always.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2018, 01:27:07 AM
I posted this in the listening thread but think it worth recommending here both for the beautiful recording and performance (slower than usual) of On Wenlock Edge and for the inclusion of the lovely early Piano Quintet from 1903-5:
[asin]B0015D20H2[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on May 21, 2018, 01:06:51 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 21, 2018, 01:27:07 AM
I posted this in the listening thread but think it worth recommending here both for the beautiful recording and performance (slower than usual) of On Wenlock Edge and for the inclusion of the lovely early Piano Quintet from 1903-5:
[asin]B0015D20H2[/asin]

I don't know that recording, Jeffrey, but as it contains two of my current favorite RVW works I ought to check it out! The Piano Quintet, especially, is just gorgeous. I have a hard time imagining the recent Naxos recording being topped, though...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on May 21, 2018, 03:36:14 PM
A question regarding Sinfonia antartica: Do you prefer the version with or without narration? Or does it matter? Does the narration add to the experience or is it distracting to you?

https://www.youtube.com/v/3nbEmvKUKbM
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 21, 2018, 03:52:40 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 21, 2018, 03:36:14 PM
A question regarding Sinfonia antartica: Do you prefer the version with or without narration? Or does it matter? Does the narration add to the experience or is it distracting to you?

https://www.youtube.com/v/3nbEmvKUKbM

I'm not a fan of the narration myself, so I can definitely do without.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2018, 09:38:45 PM
Quote from: kyjo on May 21, 2018, 01:06:51 PM
I don't know that recording, Jeffrey, but as it contains two of my current favorite RVW works I ought to check it out! The Piano Quintet, especially, is just gorgeous. I have a hard time imagining the recent Naxos recording being topped, though...
I think you'd enjoy this performance Kyle. The performances are quite wonderful IMHO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2018, 09:41:43 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 21, 2018, 03:36:14 PM
A question regarding Sinfonia antartica: Do you prefer the version with or without narration? Or does it matter? Does the narration add to the experience or is it distracting to you?

https://www.youtube.com/v/3nbEmvKUKbM

I'm very interested in the Captain Scott disaster story and the history of polar exploration generally so I'm happy to have the narration but enjoy it just as much without. Gielgud/Boult is my favourite version with or without narration. I like Boult's later EMI recording. Must listen to Haitink which I know is rated highly by some.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2018, 02:46:41 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 21, 2018, 03:36:14 PM
A question regarding Sinfonia antartica: Do you prefer the version with or without narration? Or does it matter? Does the narration add to the experience or is it distracting to you?

https://www.youtube.com/v/3nbEmvKUKbM

I defer to Jeffrey, whose knowledge of the score is likely better than my own;  but my sense (subject to verification) is that the texts are superscriptions, rather than narration, per se.  So, while I love the texts for what they are, and appreciate their relevance to the music, I find recorded insertions of the text (nodding towards the Sarge here) hectoring/lecturing  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 22, 2018, 05:16:13 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 22, 2018, 02:46:41 AM
I defer to Jeffrey, whose knowledge of the score is likely better than my own;  but my sense (subject to verification) is that the texts are superscriptions, rather than narration, per se.  So, while I love the texts for what they are, and appreciate their relevance to the music, I find recorded insertions of the text (nodding towards the Sarge here) hectoring/lecturing  8)

The texts are superscriptions. As I said earlier, movements 3 & 4 are to be played without a break, something that can't happen if they are interrupted by a narrator/speaker. In the score (p 99), the last bar of Movement 3 has the instruction ' Segue No 4' .

The score can be found as a link from this Wikipedia article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinfonia_antartica#External_links. The article also has a brief discussion of the superscriptions.

Barbirolli gave the first performance and also made the first recording - he has no narrator. I find the spoken superscriptions intrusive and don't think they wear well, however distinguished the speaker.

Meanwhile, jumping from another thread, I have been listening to 'On Wenlock Edge' from Ian Bostridge with Bernard Haitink and the LPO - I had forgotten I had this version. It is beautifully played but I still prefer the chamber version - for me, it is more direct, the full orchestra softens the impact.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2018, 05:23:41 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 22, 2018, 05:16:13 AM
The texts are superscriptions. As I said earlier, movements 3 & 4 are to be played without a break, something that can't happen if they are interrupted by a narrator/speaker. In the score (p 99), the last bar of Movement 3 has the instruction ' Segue No 4' .

The score can be found as a link from this Wikipedia article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinfonia_antartica#External_links (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinfonia_antartica#External_links). The article also has a brief discussion of the superscriptions.

Barbirolli gave the first performance and also made the first recording - he has no narrator. I find the spoken superscriptions intrusive and don't think they wear well, however distinguished the speaker.

Meanwhile, jumping from another thread, I have been listening to 'On Wenlock Edge' from Ian Bostridge with Bernard Haitink and the LPO - I had forgotten I had this version. It is beautifully played but I still prefer the chamber version - for me, it is more direct, the full orchestra softens the impact.

Thanks.

(And, I wonder if I have heard the chamber version of On W. Edge . . . what a great companion that would make to the Schoenberg Ode to Napoleon Buonaparte!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 22, 2018, 05:26:41 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 22, 2018, 02:46:41 AM
I defer to Jeffrey, whose knowledge of the score is likely better than my own;  but my sense (subject to verification) is that the texts are superscriptions, rather than narration, per se.  So, while I love the texts for what they are, and appreciate their relevance to the music, I find recorded insertions of the text (nodding towards the Sarge here) hectoring/lecturing  8)

You are quite right Karl as is Biffo.
Yet, VW was presumably there when Boult recorded the work for Decca as he attended all those sessions other than No.9 as he'd died on the morning of the recording. The fact that the work derives from film music probably explains the confusion over the superscriptions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2018, 05:43:45 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 22, 2018, 05:16:13 AM
The texts are superscriptions. As I said earlier, movements 3 & 4 are to be played without a break, something that can't happen if they are interrupted by a narrator/speaker. In the score (p 99), the last bar of Movement 3 has the instruction ' Segue No 4' .

The score can be found as a link from this Wikipedia article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinfonia_antartica#External_links. The article also has a brief discussion of the superscriptions.

Barbirolli gave the first performance and also made the first recording - he has no narrator. I find the spoken superscriptions intrusive and don't think they wear well, however distinguished the speaker.

Meanwhile, jumping from another thread, I have been listening to 'On Wenlock Edge' from Ian Bostridge with Bernard Haitink and the LPO - I had forgotten I had this version. It is beautifully played but I still prefer the chamber version - for me, it is more direct, the full orchestra softens the impact.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 22, 2018, 02:46:41 AM
I defer to Jeffrey, whose knowledge of the score is likely better than my own;  but my sense (subject to verification) is that the texts are superscriptions, rather than narration, per se.  So, while I love the texts for what they are, and appreciate their relevance to the music, I find recorded insertions of the text (nodding towards the Sarge here) hectoring/lecturing  8)

Quote from: vandermolen on May 22, 2018, 05:26:41 AM
You are quite right Karl as is Biffo.
Yet, VW was presumably there when Boult recorded the work for Decca as he attended all those sessions other than No.9 as he'd died on the morning of the recording. The fact that the work derives from film music probably explains the confusion over the superscriptions.

All information that was new to me! You learn something new everyday. I always just assumed that the texts in Sinfonia antartica were supposed to be for a narrator, but it makes me proud, but also relieved, to see that this wasn't the case after all. And to think all these years I thought there was supposed to be a narrated part!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 22, 2018, 06:12:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 22, 2018, 05:26:41 AM
You are quite right Karl as is Biffo.
Yet, VW was presumably there when Boult recorded the work for Decca as he attended all those sessions other than No.9 as he'd died on the morning of the recording. The fact that the work derives from film music probably explains the confusion over the superscriptions.

I don't want to labour the point but were the superscriptions recorded separately and dubbed in? Even so, RVW must have heard the finished product. None of my usual sources have anything to say on the recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 22, 2018, 10:20:30 PM
Quote from: Biffo on May 22, 2018, 06:12:05 AM
I don't want to labour the point but were the superscriptions recorded separately and dubbed in? Even so, RVW must have heard the finished product. None of my usual sources have anything to say on the recording.

I'm sure you're right Biffo - I can't imagine that John Gielgud was in the recording studio with Boult and VW but VW must have been aware of the finished product.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 12:58:34 PM
Re: Sinfonia Antartica

From the biography of VW by A E F Dickinson publ. 1963, five years after the composer's death:

'In a current gramophone record these extracts, all the work of poets except for Scott, are recited with studied restraint by Sir John Gielgud, but, whether or not this had the approval or consent of the composer, it appears to me a most disturbing procedure...the harnessing of each of the five movements to these divergent scraps of verse is more provocative than directive'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on May 23, 2018, 01:51:01 PM
Interesting! I must admit that I prefer the work without the narration/introductions. Perhaps it is a different experience in association with the film?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 02:23:31 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 23, 2018, 01:51:01 PM
Interesting! I must admit that I prefer the work without the narration/introductions. Perhaps it is a different experience in association with the film?

I like both versions and just to confuse things Dutton have recently released 'The Complete Scott Music' from the film - one of their best sellers apparently.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 24, 2018, 01:25:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 12:58:34 PM
Re: Sinfonia Antartica

From the biography of VW by A E F Dickinson publ. 1963, five years after the composer's death:

'In a current gramophone record these extracts, all the work of poets except for Scott, are recited with studied restraint by Sir John Gielgud, but, whether or not this had the approval or consent of the composer, it appears to me a most disturbing procedure...the harnessing of each of the five movements to these divergent scraps of verse is more provocative than directive'.

Not really sure what is meant by the highlighted text. I haven't read Dickinson's book so wouldn't want to judge it on one quote but I do have his book on the works of Berlioz. I haven't read it for years but, if I recall correctly, he doesn't let a work go by without some kind of backhanded compliment or other kind of inference that he is, in some way, smarter than the composer.

The Dutton disc (Yates/RSNO) you mention in your other post is excellent. It claims to be the complete score (79'48) and to have several world premiere recordings. I also have the Chandos disc (Gamba/BBC Philharmonic)  which is the 'premiere recording in this version' (41'12)!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2018, 04:19:30 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 24, 2018, 01:25:14 AM
Not really sure what is meant by the highlighted text. I haven't read Dickinson's book so wouldn't want to judge it on one quote but I do have his book on the works of Berlioz. I haven't read it for years but, if I recall correctly, he doesn't let a work go by without some kind of backhanded compliment or other kind of inference that he is, in some way, smarter than the composer.

The Dutton disc (Yates/RSNO) you mention in your other post is excellent. It claims to be the complete score (79'48) and to have several world premiere recordings. I also have the Chandos disc (Gamba/BBC Philharmonic)  which is the 'premiere recording in this version' (41'12)!

I don't think that Mr Dickinson approves of the spoken extracts! He is quite negative about the work generally as far as I could see from a brief perusal of the relevant section late last night. I see what you mean about the 'backhanded compliment' approach!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 24, 2018, 04:39:09 AM
The Dickinson book is a real oddity.  Extensive and detailed and covering (some) works not mentioned elsewhere which would imply an enthusiasm on the part of the author for the subject.  Yet - as others have mentioned - this seems to be a version of "tough love" with shortcomings and "failings" highlighted as much as triumphs.  But then again Imogen Holst did much the same in her survey of her father's music - with large tracts of it dismissed as not that worthwhile.  I think in that instance it was done in a mis-guided belief that if she was too 'soft' on his work it would be judged as nepotism.  Bantock's daughter wrote a biography of her father which went to the opposite extreme with every work a towering masterpiece - rather hilariously rose-tinted.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 24, 2018, 05:12:56 AM
Hugh Ottaway in the short guide to the Symphonies (Ariel Music) also disapproves of recordings with spoken superscriptions but he puts the blame for the practice on record companies; he cites Boult's EMI recording as an example of a 'very fine' example of of one without them.

Has the practice died out now? I have eight viable recordings of the work, none with a speaker. Previn used to have Ralph Richardson but he was removed for the CD reissue; I have the original version but on a cassette, currently unplayable.

This discussion reminded me again of 'An Oxford Elegy' (briefly mentioned earlier). I was too lazy to dig the Wilcocks LP out of the vaults so I listened to the Centaur recording on Spotify instead - Robert Taylor conducting the Chorus Civitas & Chamber Orchestra with Gerard Killebrew as narrator. It is decades since I listened to the Willcocks version and this newer version didn't endear me to the work. The orchestral opening is magical but it goes rapidly downhill after that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2018, 05:40:23 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 24, 2018, 04:39:09 AM
The Dickinson book is a real oddity.  Extensive and detailed and covering (some) works not mentioned elsewhere which would imply an enthusiasm on the part of the author for the subject.  Yet - as others have mentioned - this seems to be a version of "tough love" with shortcomings and "failings" highlighted as much as triumphs.  But then again Imogen Holst did much the same in her survey of her father's music - with large tracts of it dismissed as not that worthwhile.  I think in that instance it was done in a mis-guided belief that if she was too 'soft' on his work it would be judged as nepotism.  Bantock's daughter wrote a biography of her father which went to the opposite extreme with every work a towering masterpiece - rather hilariously rose-tinted.

Your observation on Bantock's daughter's approach made me laugh. I think I have that book. That approach reminded me of 'The Story of the Second World War' by Katherine Savage in which she, more or less, argues that Britain won the Second World War on it's own with the USA and USSR getting in the way.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2018, 05:44:31 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 24, 2018, 05:12:56 AM
Hugh Ottaway in the short guide to the Symphonies (Ariel Music) also disapproves of recordings with spoken superscriptions but he puts the blame for the practice on record companies; he cites Boult's EMI recording as an example of a 'very fine' example of of one without them.

Has the practice died out now? I have eight viable recordings of the work, none with a speaker. Previn used to have Ralph Richardson but he was removed for the CD reissue; I have the original version but on a cassette, currently unplayable.

This discussion reminded me again of 'An Oxford Elegy' (briefly mentioned earlier). I was too lazy to dig the Wilcocks LP out of the vaults so I listened to the Centaur recording on Spotify instead - Robert Taylor conducting the Chorus Civitas & Chamber Orchestra with Gerard Killebrew as narrator. It is decades since I listened to the Willcocks version and this newer version didn't endear me to the work. The orchestral opening is magical but it goes rapidly downhill after that.
I think that there is a version of Sinfonia Antartica conducted by Raymond Leppard which includes vast chunks of Scott's diaries which were not even quoted by Vaughan Williams! I really like 'An Oxford Elegy' but only narrated by John Westbrook or Jeremy Irons. Jack May sounds like a Sargent-Major barking out instructions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on June 05, 2018, 03:45:45 PM
What are your thoughts on this recording?
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/naxos/large/095115520123.jpg)

I think it is quite beautiful but just on the first track!  This appears to be the Serenade for SATB soli and chorus but a very fine version. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2018, 02:24:38 PM
Quote from: relm1 on June 05, 2018, 03:45:45 PM
What are your thoughts on this recording?
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/naxos/large/095115520123.jpg)

I think it is quite beautiful but just on the first track!  This appears to be the Serenade for SATB soli and chorus but a very fine version.

On order but hasn't arrived yet. Released today I think in UK.

I especially like the craggy and poetic Piano Concerto by Vaughan Williams - one of his most underrated works IMHO.




Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 26, 2018, 03:03:20 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 05, 2018, 03:45:45 PM
What are your thoughts on this recording?
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/naxos/large/095115520123.jpg)

I think it is quite beautiful but just on the first track!  This appears to be the Serenade for SATB soli and chorus but a very fine version.
Did any of you hear this one already? Would be glad to learn your verdict.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 26, 2018, 03:12:11 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 26, 2018, 03:03:20 AM
Did any of you hear this one already? Would be glad to learn your verdict.  :)

I bought this album as a lossless download several weeks ago and posted on each work as I listened to them. All the performances were good but none a first choice, except perhaps the Oboe Concerto but I don't have much to compare it with or listen to it very often.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 26, 2018, 08:20:34 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 26, 2018, 03:03:20 AM
Did any of you hear this one already? Would be glad to learn your verdict.  :)
Well, despite the inclusion of 'Serenade to Music' ( 8)) I enjoyed this CD. I'm inclined to agree with Biffo above, although I enjoyed all the performances and it makes an interesting programme. I have my doubts about the Oboe Concerto, although it remains by far my favourite concerto for the instrument (the one that Rutland Boughton composed for his daughter is excellent as well). Listening to the first two movements brought to mind an unfair (IMHO) comment made about Bliss's 'Meditations on a Theme by John Blow' - 'amiable but rambling' and yet, when we got to the eloquent last movement, which contains the most memorable material, I felt guilty about having such thoughts. It may be 'off-cuts' from Symphony 5 but it must have brought spiritual sustenance to its first audience in Blitzed-out London in 1944. The last two works, however, are in a different league (in my view). The poetic and ethereal 'Flos Campi' is beautifully recorded and performed - a lovely work. I thought that the Piano Concerto was given an especially powerful performance, linking it to the massive Busoni Piano Concerto which was apparently an influence on Vaughan Williams, notwithstanding poetic moments of great beauty, as in the central movement of the work.

As for 'Serenade to Music'' I'm afraid that I found it just as twee and self-congratulatory as before - possibly, along with 'The Wasps Overture' (fortunately not included on the CD) my least favourite work by Vaughan Williams. But, don't let that put you off acquiring this fine CD by Canadian forces.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on June 28, 2018, 02:07:44 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 24, 2018, 05:12:56 AM
Hugh Ottaway in the short guide to the Symphonies (Ariel Music) also disapproves of recordings with spoken superscriptions but he puts the blame for the practice on record companies; he cites Boult's EMI recording as an example of a 'very fine' example of of one without them.

Has the practice died out now? I have eight viable recordings of the work, none with a speaker. Previn used to have Ralph Richardson but he was removed for the CD reissue; I have the original version but on a cassette, currently unplayable.

I've never heard a recording where the superscriptions interrupt the music. The Naxos recording (Bournemouth/Bakels I think) has the spoken superscriptions, but on separate tracks at the end of the disc. I'm curious though...did the composer decide that they needed to be spoken at all?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2018, 02:53:13 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 28, 2018, 02:07:44 AM
I've never heard a recording where the superscriptions interrupt the music.

Several generations will call you blessed  ;)  0:)  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 28, 2018, 03:16:18 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 28, 2018, 02:07:44 AM
I've never heard a recording where the superscriptions interrupt the music. The Naxos recording (Bournemouth/Bakels I think) has the spoken superscriptions, but on separate tracks at the end of the disc. I'm curious though...did the composer decide that they needed to be spoken at all?

RVW never intended them to be spoken; movements 3 & 4 are to be played without interruption (see earlier postings). I don't see the point of having them spoken at all, even at the end of the disc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 28, 2018, 03:38:01 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 28, 2018, 02:07:44 AM
I've never heard a recording where the superscriptions interrupt the music. The Naxos recording (Bournemouth/Bakels I think) has the spoken superscriptions, but on separate tracks at the end of the disc. I'm curious though...did the composer decide that they needed to be spoken at all?
Boult's Decca recording includes them spoken by John Gielgud and I think Previn's RCA LP (possibly the CD) did with Ralph Richardson in a croaky voice. I think that the earliest recording with John Barbirolli conducting did not include any spoken superscriptions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 29, 2018, 08:44:04 AM
On the Leppard / Indianapolis SO recording the superscriptions don't so much interrupt the music as overlay it in some instances.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 01, 2018, 06:49:19 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 29, 2018, 08:44:04 AM
On the Leppard / Indianapolis SO recording the superscriptions don't so much interrupt the music as overlay it in some instances.

That was a very bizarre release featuring long extracts from Scott's diaries which were not even superscriptions in the score.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 03, 2018, 04:36:57 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 01, 2018, 06:49:19 AM
That was a very bizarre release featuring long extracts from Scott's diaries which were not even superscriptions in the score.
The words are pretty tedious (I am thinking of the Previn recording) and detracts from the music.

A bit off topic but reading about the Scott Expedition it was quite superhuman what they accomplished - walking to the pole and almost making it back, some 1200 miles roundtrip in some ungodly cold weather, where missing a deport meant life and death. Hard to believe it was only 100 or so years ago. I think even today no one can make it on foot repeating Scott's route with all the modern advances.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 04, 2018, 03:23:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 28, 2018, 03:38:01 AM
Boult's Decca recording includes them spoken by John Gielgud and I think Previn's RCA LP (possibly the CD) did with Ralph Richardson in a croaky voice. I think that the earliest recording with John Barbirolli conducting did not include any spoken superscriptions.
I like the recordings with the spoken bits. The Boult,Gielgud recording is definitely my favourite,and I like the Previn recording,with Ralph Richardson. I think a croaky voice is rather appropriate considering the weather conditions at the South Pole!! ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on July 04, 2018, 05:14:58 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 03, 2018, 04:36:57 PM
I think even today no one can make it on foot repeating Scott's route with all the modern advances.

No, they all say they're going to retrace Scott's footsteps to the Pole and then fly home when they reach 90 South after a lavish meal courtesy of the US scientific base. The return journey (without any resupply along the way) is (literally) the killer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 04, 2018, 05:24:14 AM
Quote from: Oates on July 04, 2018, 05:14:58 AM
No, they all say they're going to retrace Scott's footsteps to the Pole and then fly home when they reach 90 South after a lavish meal courtesy of the US scientific base. The return journey (without any resupply along the way) is (literally) the killer.

With modern equipment and resupply from the air it is not the gruelling feat it used to be but still not lightly undertaken on foot. Sir Ranulph Fiennes made a complete crossing of Antarctica on foot. Shackleton made it to within 90 miles of the Pole but sensibly turned back. Amundsen used dogs and got to the Pole first but he was better organised.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 04, 2018, 10:57:17 AM
I like that Boult/Gielgud version as well. Boult's objective way with Vaughan Williams is well suited to the icy wastes of Antarctica as it was to the possible nuclear wastes at the end of Symphony 6 (I'm aware that the composer rejected this interpretation).

Personally, compared to the likes of  Shackleton, Amundsen and Scott I have little time for modern-day explorers who traverse Antartica in heated-snowmobiles with huge back-up teams, satellite communications, helicopters etc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 05, 2018, 04:14:36 AM
Yes (yawning!). Even,I could nip up there,if I could get my a*** off this seat?!! ::) ;D Private Eye did a very funny spoof "diary" of Ranulph Fiennes,with him sawing off various bits of his frostbitten extremities. Those diaries (by Craig Brown) are very clever. Probably the best thing in P.E. these days,besides McLachlan's cartoons (my father get's it,not me!). My father keeps saying it's not as good as it used tobe;although,so far,he hasn't cancelled his subscription!! ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2018, 04:50:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 04, 2018, 10:57:17 AM
Personally, compared to the likes of  Shackleton, Amundsen and Scott I have little time for modern-day explorers who traverse Antartica in heated-snowmobiles with huge back-up teams, satellite communications, helicopters etc.

Do you so despise safety measures, Sir?  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 06:12:50 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 05, 2018, 04:14:36 AM
Yes (yawning!). Even,I could nip up there,if I could get my a*** off this seat?!! ::) ;D Private Eye did a very funny spoof "diary" of Ranulph Fiennes,with him sawing off various bits of his frostbitten extremities. Those diaries (by Craig Brown) are very clever. Probably the best thing in P.E. these days,besides McLachlan's cartoons (my father get's it,not me!). My father keeps saying it's not as good as it used tobe;although,so far,he hasn't cancelled his subscription!! ;D

Your father is right although it has its moments still.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 06:14:28 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 05, 2018, 04:50:57 AM
Do you so despise safety measures, Sir?  8)

No, of course not Karl although I  think that some of these expeditions are more ego-trip than voyages of discovery.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2018, 06:18:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 06:14:28 AM
No, of course not Karl although I  think that some of these expeditions are more ego-trip than voyages of discovery.

I was not serious, to be sure.  And you certainly have a point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 05, 2018, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 06:14:28 AM
No, of course not Karl although I  think that some of these expeditions are more ego-trip than voyages of discovery.

I am sure there is a great deal of scientific work to be done in Antarctica but that is carried out by permanent bases. Most of these 'crossings' - first to do it on roller-skates, first walking backwards etc are just pointless. Having said that, you would have to cross several frozen continents to find a bigger pair of clashing egos than Scott and Amundsen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 07:08:25 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 05, 2018, 06:18:21 AM
I was not serious, to be sure.  And you certainly have a point.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 07:10:39 AM
Quote from: Biffo on July 05, 2018, 06:45:40 AM
I am sure there is a great deal of scientific work to be done in Antarctica but that is carried out by permanent bases. Most of these 'crossings' - first to do it on roller-skates, first walking backwards etc are just pointless. Having said that, you would have to cross several frozen continents to find a bigger pair of clashing egos than Scott and Amundsen.

Your roller-skates comment made me laugh and your quite right about Scott and Amundsen. My favourite polar explorer is Shackleton who had his own run-ins with Scott.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 05, 2018, 07:20:41 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 07:10:39 AM
Your roller-skates comment made me laugh and your quite right about Scott and Amundsen. My favourite polar explorer is Shackleton who had his own run-ins with Scott.

I've just been reading about Lawrence Oates; he had numerous clashes with Scott but it seems it was only when they got to Antarctica that he realised Scott was totally inept. Quite why Scott chose a man with one leg shorter than the other (Oates) for the final party is beyond me; why Oates agreed to go is also mystifying.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on July 05, 2018, 08:00:20 AM
I thoroughly commend Ranulph Fiennes' book describing his solo crossing - Mind Over Matter (out of print but well worth seeking out) - a celebration of extreme, insane, self-sufficiency.  When Fiennes reached the Pole, after many weeks of solo man-hauling a sledge that initially was too heavy to move until he jettisoned some 'essentials' - faced with the sight of warmth, shelter, food, conversation, he was so deeply appalled by the prospect that he just kept trudging on, without even checking in.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 05, 2018, 08:27:11 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 05, 2018, 08:00:20 AM
I thoroughly commend Ranulph Fiennes' book describing his solo crossing - Mind Over Matter (out of print but well worth seeking out) - a celebration of extreme, insane, self-sufficiency.  When Fiennes reached the Pole, after many weeks of solo man-hauling a sledge that initially was too heavy to move until he jettisoned some 'essentials' - faced with the sight of warmth, shelter, food, conversation, he was so deeply appalled by the prospect that he just kept trudging on, without even checking in.

There are several used copies available from Amazon UK from as little as 1p; I am half-tempted but I have a huge backlog of reading (Beethoven, Mahler, Delius and lots of non-musical stuff). RF seems to have written a lot more in the same vein as well as a biography of Scott. As I understand it the latter is an attempt to restore Scott's reputation after Roland Huntford's hatchet job. A bit of a lost cause I think.

Returning to the subject of the thread, RVW read everything he could on the expedition - journals, diaries etc - and was appalled by the incompetence and shambolic nature of it all. The desolate music he used in the final movement of the Sinfonia was originally intended for the film's final credits but the director insisted on the heroic march; the myth of heroic failure had to be maintained.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 08:28:24 AM
Quote from: Biffo on July 05, 2018, 07:20:41 AM
I've just been reading about Lawrence Oates; he had numerous clashes with Scott but it seems it was only when they got to Antarctica that he realised Scott was totally inept. Quite why Scott chose a man with one leg shorter than the other (Oates) for the final party is beyond me; why Oates agreed to go is also mystifying.

Yes, Oates couldn't stand Scott. Unfortunately Oates's mother destroyed his diaries and letters after his death. Scott was determined that there should be representatives of the army and navy at the South Pole which is why Oates was foolishly chosen. This meant that they were a party of five with all the rations worked out for a four-man party. This also left the final returning party of only three - they nearly didn't survive either.

Roland Huntford wrote a hatchet job on Scott and Fiennes wrote a hagiography. No doubt the truth is somewhere in between.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DaveF on July 05, 2018, 09:04:59 AM
David Crane's biog ("Scott of the Antarctic") is the most balanced I've read.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 05, 2018, 11:03:56 AM
Well with any luck at all they would have been alive - they DID almost make it back despite all the blunders and miscalculations. The courage these people show are just staggering. Look around Antarctica how many landmarks, bodies of water are named after British explorers. That is an era the will never repeat itself.

Speaking of miserable has anyone seen a more depressing picture than this one?
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/A958/production/_98625334_5f3216b1-33d7-4895-9661-a9d61f778739.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 11:17:55 AM
Quote from: DaveF on July 05, 2018, 09:04:59 AM
David Crane's biog ("Scott of the Antarctic") is the most balanced I've read.

His book is excellent as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 11:19:53 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 05, 2018, 11:03:56 AM
Well with any luck at all they would have been alive - they DID almost make it back despite all the blunders and miscalculations. The courage these people show are just staggering. Look around Antarctica how many landmarks, bodies of water are named after British explorers. That is an era the will never repeat itself.

Speaking of miserable has anyone seen a more depressing picture than this one?
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/A958/production/_98625334_5f3216b1-33d7-4895-9661-a9d61f778739.jpg)

I agree. That photo must be one of the most tragic and poignant ever taken. Maybe it's reading too much into it but Oates is standing apart from Scott with his weight on his 'good' leg.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 05, 2018, 04:33:22 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 11:19:53 AM
I agree. That photo must be one of the most tragic and poignant ever taken. Maybe it's reading too much into it but Oates is standing apart from Scott with his weight on his 'good' leg.

Please explain since this is a topic I am endlessly fascinated with but don't know what you mean.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 10:25:31 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 05, 2018, 04:33:22 PM
Please explain since this is a topic I am endlessly fascinated with but don't know what you mean.

Yes, of course - sorry I didn't before:

The photo was taken by Scott's party when they arrived exhausted at the South Pole (Jan 1912) only to find that the Norwegians (led by Amundsen) had beaten them to it. Their dreams were shattered. Scott's party had walked all the way and Amundsen had wisely taken Husky dogs with him. The picture was taken by Bowers (sitting on the left as you look at the image) by pulling a string to release the camera's shutter. Other members of the party are Wilson (also sitting), Oates back left, slightly apart, Scott in the centre at the back and Seaman Evans who was the first to die on the return journey (possibly having suffered a brain injury after falling into a crevasse. The increasingly lame Oates walked out of the tent into a blizzard some time later to try to save the others whom he was holding back ('I'm just going outside and may be some time' were apparently his last words as he walked out into a blizzard in his socks). The other three limped on to within eleven miles of the final food depot (One Ton Depot) but were caught up in a blizzard, couldn't leave the tent and eventually died with Scott writing up his last letters, Journal etc). Sorry  I have to go to work so must stop now - there is a whole 'revisionist' history of all this as well. Scott's death was held up as an example of heroic sacrifice to encourage the nation to mass self-sacrifice on the eve of World War One.

Back on topic, Vaughan Williams's 'Sinfonia Antartica' ends with the final blizzard (wind machine) which wiped out the final three members (Scott, Wilson, Bowers). A search party found their frozen bodies in the tent with Scott's Journals etc the following year).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 05, 2018, 11:44:30 PM
On a slight tangent but pertaining to these posts about Scott - do listen to the slow movement of Somervell's  'Thalassa' Symphony which is an Elegy/In Memoriam for Scott.  A genuinely powerful and moving piece of music.  The whole symphony is OK but not at the level of this slow movement.

[asin]B00JEFJ1C0[/asin]  [asin]B07B5Y8S74[/asin]


as far as the read superscriptions go I like very much Raymond Leppard's take on KOSS where his narrator extends the links with further readings from the diaries.  No "authenticity" to this approach but a very fine musical performance/recording and an interesting alternative take.....

[asin][/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 05, 2018, 11:59:18 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 05, 2018, 10:25:31 PM
Yes, of course - sorry I didn't before:

The photo was taken by Scott's party when they arrived exhausted at the South Pole (Jan 1912) only to find that the Norwegians (led by Amundsen) had beaten them to it. Their dreams were shattered. Scott's party had walked all the way and Amundsen had wisely taken Husky dogs with him. The picture was taken by Bowers (sitting on the left as you look at the image) by pulling a string to release the camera's shutter. Other members of the party are Wilson (also sitting), Oates back left, slightly apart, Scott in the centre at the back and Seaman Evans who was the first to die on the return journey (possibly having suffered a brain injury after falling into a crevasse. The increasingly lame Oates walked out of the tent into a blizzard some time later to try to save the others whom he was holding back ('I'm just going outside and may be some time' were apparently his last words as he walked out into a blizzard in his socks). The other three limped on to within eleven miles of the final food depot (One Ton Depot) but were caught up in a blizzard, couldn't leave the tent and eventually died with Scott writing up his last letters, Journal etc). Sorry  I have to go to work so must stop now - there is a whole 'revisionist' history of all this as well. Scott's death was held up as an example of heroic sacrifice to encourage the nation to mass self-sacrifice on the eve of World War One.

Back on topic, Vaughan Williams's 'Sinfonia Antartica' ends with the final blizzard (wind machine) which wiped out the final three members (Scott, Wilson, Bowers). A search party found their frozen bodies in the tent with Scott's Journals etc the following year).

As an afterword: There was a claim fairly recently that the blizzard abated a couple of days earlier than usually thought and that Bowers and Wilson could have saved themselves if they had been willing to abandon Scott but they chose to die with him. I can't remember what the basis for this claim was but it makes their end even more poignant.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2018, 01:28:56 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 05, 2018, 11:44:30 PM
On a slight tangent but pertaining to these posts about Scott - do listen to the slow movement of Somervell's  'Thalassa' Symphony which is an Elegy/In Memoriam for Scott.  A genuinely powerful and moving piece of music.  The whole symphony is OK but not at the level of this slow movement.

[asin]B00JEFJ1C0[/asin]  [asin]B07B5Y8S74[/asin]


as far as the read superscriptions go I like very much Raymond Leppard's take on KOSS where his narrator extends the links with further readings from the diaries.  No "authenticity" to this approach but a very fine musical performance/recording and an interesting alternative take.....

[asin][/asin]
Thanks for this. I think that I have the Thalassa CD so must look it out.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2018, 01:32:57 AM
Quote from: Biffo on July 05, 2018, 11:59:18 PM
As an afterword: There was a claim fairly recently that the blizzard abated a couple of days earlier than usually thought and that Bowers and Wilson could have saved themselves if they had been willing to abandon Scott but they chose to die with him. I can't remember what the basis for this claim was but it makes their end even more poignant.
Yes, there are various theories about this. Roland Huntford, in his hatchet job on Scott, 'Scott and Amundsen' suggests that Scott stage-managed the final scenes so that the focus would be on heroic self-sacrifice rather than on his own mis-management and incompetence.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on July 06, 2018, 05:19:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2018, 01:32:57 AM
Yes, there are various theories about this. Roland Huntford, in his hatchet job on Scott, 'Scott and Amundsen' suggests that Scott stage-managed the final scenes so that the focus would be on heroic self-sacrifice rather than on his own mis-management and incompetence.

One of the problems is that we only have Scott's account of the final days. Huntford suggests that Scott invented Oates' "I'm just going outside" line. Tellingly, if you read Wilson's diaries (and Wilson is a much more dispassionate and logical mind, not given to hyperbole or drama - probably the reason why his diaries aren't read as much) his entries stop on 27 Feb - 18 days before Oates' death and 22 days before the final camp. So Scott knew his version of events wouldn't be contradicted (Bowers' diary was largely meteorological I believe). Several commentators have glorified the 'heroic' end by commenting on the fact that they each had opium tablets but nobly chose not to take them - well, given there were no postmortems, is this true?  I'm sure I would in those circumstances. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 07, 2018, 03:58:08 PM
Quote from: Oates on July 06, 2018, 05:19:21 AM
One of the problems is that we only have Scott's account of the final days. Huntford suggests that Scott invented Oates' "I'm just going outside" line. Tellingly, if you read Wilson's diaries (and Wilson is a much more dispassionate and logical mind, not given to hyperbole or drama - probably the reason why his diaries aren't read as much) his entries stop on 27 Feb - 18 days before Oates' death and 22 days before the final camp. So Scott knew his version of events wouldn't be contradicted (Bowers' diary was largely meteorological I believe). Several commentators have glorified the 'heroic' end by commenting on the fact that they each had opium tablets but nobly chose not to take them - well, given there were no postmortems, is this true?  I'm sure I would in those circumstances.
I would be shitting bricks instead of calmly writing in my diary. Anyway I would cut them some slack if any one of them did glorify themselves somewhat. Ironically Amundsen's journey was some 60 miles or so closer to the Pole than Scott's. Those 60 miles literally did mean life and death.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 07, 2018, 05:07:36 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 07, 2018, 03:58:08 PM
I would be shitting bricks instead of calmly writing in my diary. Anyway I would cut them some slack if any one of them did glorify themselves somewhat. Ironically Amundsen's journey was some 60 miles or so closer to the Pole than Scott's. Those 60 miles literally did mean life and death.

I trust Scott's account.  You aren't made of the same cloth as he so shouldn't put yourself in his place.  I just finished reading Michael Collins' book Carrying the Fire and as some of you might know, he was a 1960's era astronaut who flew on Gemini 10 and Apollo 11 (the first trip on the moon) which is far more dangerous than what Scott or any Antarctic explorer experienced though somewhat similar in that they were reaching the final frontier of their day.  These guys operated in a domain of death not visited by us.  So my point in all of this is that you should not consider your point of view in such an experience relevant to the truthfulness of an explorer.  Many of these people go into this exploration knowing they very well might die just like the first space explorers did.  When the mercury astronauts were selected, 1 out of 2 rockets exploded.  By the time they launched the failure rate was 1/8 so not great odds with 7 astronauts.  Sort of like Russian roulette.  Very dangerous stuff these men did knowingly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 08, 2018, 12:51:28 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 07, 2018, 03:58:08 PM
I would be shitting bricks instead of calmly writing in my diary. Anyway I would cut them some slack if any one of them did glorify themselves somewhat. Ironically Amundsen's journey was some 60 miles or so closer to the Pole than Scott's. Those 60 miles literally did mean life and death.

Superior organisation, equipment and personnel were the reason for Amundsen's success. Shackleton pioneered the route up the Beardmore Glacier to the Antarctic Plateau and got to within 90 miles of the Pole. Scott followed Shackleton's route. Amundsen had to take a completely unexplored route; it turned out to 60 miles shorter than Scott's but it was journey into the unknown.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 08, 2018, 08:35:09 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 07, 2018, 05:07:36 PM
I trust Scott's account.  You aren't made of the same cloth as he so shouldn't put yourself in his place.  I just finished reading Michael Collins' book Carrying the Fire and as some of you might know, he was a 1960's era astronaut who flew on Gemini 10 and Apollo 11 (the first trip on the moon) which is far more dangerous than what Scott or any Antarctic explorer experienced though somewhat similar in that they were reaching the final frontier of their day.  These guys operated in a domain of death not visited by us.  So my point in all of this is that you should not consider your point of view in such an experience relevant to the truthfulness of an explorer.  Many of these people go into this exploration knowing they very well might die just like the first space explorers did.  When the mercury astronauts were selected, 1 out of 2 rockets exploded.  By the time they launched the failure rate was 1/8 so not great odds with 7 astronauts.  Sort of like Russian roulette.  Very dangerous stuff these men did knowingly.

Ah, Michael Collins, the Command Module pilot on Apollo 11 - one of the heroes of my youth. Apollo 1 caught fire during a test killing all three astronauts (White, Grissom, Chaffee, if I remember correctly). White made the first space walk I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 08, 2018, 02:21:29 PM
One thing that wasn't very clear was how Scott trained for the mission. He was there previously so that helped. But unlike Apollo astronauts who spend their entire time training and re-training I am not sure what Scott's team DID to prepare themselves for the trip. They didn't even look like they were dressed warm enough. Just look at the way they were dressed and look at the way Amundsen's team was dressed.

No question these men were make of another ilk, men like Crozier, Ross, Franklin, Scott. Their missions were for a few years that to me is pretty unfathomable.

Another similar tragedy that I can think of is the one of George Washington De Long - writing in his journal till the bitter end, not being found until much later...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 08, 2018, 04:45:09 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 08, 2018, 08:35:09 AM
Ah, Michael Collins, the Command Module pilot on Apollo 11 - one of the heroes of my youth. Apollo 1 caught fire during a test killing all three astronauts (White, Grissom, Chaffee, if I remember correctly). White made the first space walk I think.
Correct.  It was problematic.  In Collins book he says had the Apollo 1 fire not happened, it wouldn't have sped the first lunar landing since they just didn't yet know how to do it until 1969.  It's a fantastic book and as close as we will ever be to understanding Scott or Ernest Shackleton which is not a common mindset in our time.  The bottom line is that heroes aren't moved by the grandiose.  They have a job to do which might result in their death based on a risk they've accepted.  It is really nothing different than a fire fighter who races to their demise up the twin towers on September 11.  A hundred years from now, those heroes might be regarded as the very same as Apollo 1 or Scott.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 09, 2018, 12:04:02 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 08, 2018, 04:45:09 PM
Correct.  It was problematic.  In Collins book he says had the Apollo 1 fire not happened, it wouldn't have sped the first lunar landing since they just didn't yet know how to do it until 1969.  It's a fantastic book and as close as we will ever be to understanding Scott or Ernest Shackleton which is not a common mindset in our time.  The bottom line is that heroes aren't moved by the grandiose.  They have a job to do which might result in their death based on a risk they've accepted.  It is really nothing different than a fire fighter who races to their demise up the twin towers on September 11.  A hundred years from now, those heroes might be regarded as the very same as Apollo 1 or Scott.

OT

I suspect that you may well be right. I'm old enough to remember the 1969 moon landing and recall my youthful self looking up at the moon and thinking 'gosh - there are people up there!' I was the only one of my family to stay up all night to watch it. Apollo 8 was even more special in my memory - that picture of Earthrise from the moon and Frank Borman reading from Genesis on Christmas Eve I think.

Those names are etched in my memory: 'Borman, Lovell, Anders' - 'Armstrong (RIP) Aldrin Collins'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 09, 2018, 12:35:38 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 08, 2018, 02:21:29 PM
One thing that wasn't very clear was how Scott trained for the mission. He was there previously so that helped. But unlike Apollo astronauts who spend their entire time training and re-training I am not sure what Scott's team DID to prepare themselves for the trip. They didn't even look like they were dressed warm enough. Just look at the way they were dressed and look at the way Amundsen's team was dressed.

No question these men were make of another ilk, men like Crozier, Ross, Franklin, Scott. Their missions were for a few years that to me is pretty unfathomable.

Another similar tragedy that I can think of is the one of George Washington De Long - writing in his journal till the bitter end, not being found until much later...

Amundsen spent a considerable time in the Canadian Arctic living with the indigenous people. He learned how to handle dogs and he studied their clothing. They wore clothing that was fur-lined and very warm; Amundsen had several sets of this clothing made for his team. Scott and his team wore canvas outer clothing. Given that Scott had been on an Antarctic expedition before his preparation and equipment is unfathomable.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Klaatu on July 09, 2018, 02:43:02 AM
Arnold Rimmer of Red Dwarf had an alternative view concerning Scott and Oates:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VGISD6UmXxo
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 09, 2018, 06:45:23 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on July 09, 2018, 02:43:02 AM
Arnold Rimmer of Red Dwarf had an alternative view concerning Scott and Oates:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VGISD6UmXxo

It's funny but not necessarily without some truth about possible stage-managing by Scott.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 09, 2018, 07:31:41 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 09, 2018, 06:45:23 AM
It's funny but not necessarily without some truth about possible stage-managing by Scott.

It is a long time since I read Huntford's book but I do remember it being pretty damning and though generally negative, truthful. Until it was mentioned in this thread I had forgotten the stuff about Scott stage managing the final death scene; that I do find a bit hard to believe.

I didn't want to trivialise a serious discussion but now that Red Dwarf has been mentioned I have to admit that ever since the first posting I have had the mental image of Terry Jones as the bogus polar explorer in Tompkinson's Schooldays (Ripping Yarns) stuck firmly in my head. I suppose it is an indication of how far Scott's reputation and probably the Imperial ideology he typified have fallen; now they are a matter for satire and ridicule.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 09, 2018, 07:38:52 AM
Quote from: Biffo on July 09, 2018, 07:31:41 AM
It is a long time since I read Huntford's book but I do remember it being pretty damning and though generally negative, truthful. Until it was mentioned in this thread I had forgotten the stuff about Scott stage managing the final death scene; that I do find a bit hard to believe.

I didn't want to trivialise a serious discussion but now that Red Dwarf has been mentioned I have to admit that ever since the first posting I have had the mental image of Terry Jones as the bogus polar explorer in Tompkinson's Schooldays (Ripping Yarns) stuck firmly in my head. I suppose it is an indication of how far Scott's reputation and probably the Imperial ideology he typified have fallen; now they are a matter for satire and ridicule.

Also Monty Python's 'Scott of the Sahara' sketch - assuming that is not the same thing.

At least includes some of VW's music:

https://youtu.be/ZcAtC1R-qGk
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Alek Hidell on July 10, 2018, 11:47:04 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 09, 2018, 07:38:52 AM
Also Monty Python's 'Scott of the Sahara' sketch - assuming that is not the same thing.

"I get to fight the lion!"

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BM2I3ZmQ3YjMtYjg5ZS00YTEwLTk0MzYtOTNhY2NjOGM5NmE1XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNzQ1NjgzOTA@._V1_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on July 11, 2018, 03:05:09 AM
Quote from: Biffo on July 09, 2018, 12:35:38 AM
Amundsen spent a considerable time in the Canadian Arctic living with the indigenous people. He learned how to handle dogs and he studied their clothing. They wore clothing that was fur-lined and very warm; Amundsen had several sets of this clothing made for his team. Scott and his team wore canvas outer clothing. Given that Scott had been on an Antarctic expedition before his preparation and equipment is unfathomable.

All true...And yet when Amundsen's party reached the Pole, they were wearing the same Burberry wind proofs as Scott - modified slightly by having the hoods sewn into the smocks. Scott's had detachable, buttoned on hoods.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 13, 2018, 08:16:40 AM
And in the right thread,now (in response to vandermolen's reply in the Walton thread! Confused?!! ::) ;D) about  the cd of Boult's emi stereo recording of Job (paired with the Concerto for two pianos & orchestra).

Now,I remember! The Barry Wordsworth recording of Job coupled with The Perfect Fool suite?!!! Yes! That's the first one I had....not the Handley cd. I remember I tried to find a s/h copy a while back,and sellers were asking ridiculous prices (okay,perhaps they've got bills to pay?!!)!! Yes,I liked that! Why did I get rid of it?!! An infatuation with some other composer? I needed the money?!!! ::) ;D Another cd I wish I'd kept!! :(

Yes,I looked it up! I liked the fill-up (horrible term!). Yes,I think you're right about that! I'm glad it's going to be reissued! Good news! :)

A question,now. Is the Boult recording of Job on Belart the mono recording? I presumed it was;but the reviews below are a bit confusing!! I understand there was an earlier recording by Boult,too. Have you heard it (If it exists I'd be amazed if you haven't!) And has it ever been released on cd?

I enjoyed listening to VW speaking at the end of the Belart cd ,of Boult's momo recording Symphonies 4 & 6,very much!! :)



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 13, 2018, 09:36:02 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 13, 2018, 08:16:40 AM
And in the right thread,now (in response to vandermolen's reply in the Walton thread! Confused?!! ::) ;D) about  the cd of Boult's emi stereo recording of Job (paired with the Concerto for two pianos & orchestra).

Now,I remember! The Barry Wordsworth recording of Job coupled with The Perfect Fool suite?!!! Yes! That's the first one I had....not the Handley cd. I remember I tried to find a s/h copy a while back,and sellers were asking ridiculous prices (okay,perhaps they've got bills to pay?!!)!! Yes,I liked that! Why did I get rid of it?!! An infatuation with some other composer? I needed the money?!!! ::) ;D Another cd I wish I'd kept!! :(

Yes,I looked it up! I liked the fill-up (horrible term!). Yes,I think you're right about that! I'm glad it's going to be reissued! Good news! :)

A question,now. Is the Boult recording of Job on Belart the mono recording? I presumed it was;but the reviews below are a bit confusing!! I understand there was an earlier recording by Boult,too. Have you heard it (If it exists I'd be amazed if you haven't!) And has it ever been issued or released on cd?

I enjoyed listening to VW speaking at the end of the Belart cd ,of Boult's momo recording Symphonies 4 & 6,very much!! :)

There are four studio recordings by Boult plus the one from the concert on 12th October 1972 (what would have been VW's 100th Birthday) issued on the Intaglio label which might be a pirate label. The studio ones are the first and last - both on EMI (now Warner) the earliest one was on a Dutton CD entitled something like 'British Premiere Recordings' Bliss's Music for Strings was on the same CD. Then there was the Decca/Australian Eloquence then one on Everest and finally the EMI No.2. I think that only the last two are in stereo but not 100% sure.
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 14, 2018, 05:19:58 AM
I just realised last night that I had the Boult recording of Job,on the Dutton cd,on a cd-r. I listened to it this morning. I think I downloaded it from one of those vinyl blogs. I paired the recording with VW's recording of No 4. I was aware of the Dutton cd,but wasn't sure which recording was on it? I didn't realise it had been recorded that early (1946!). I enjoyed that recording. Parts of the performance are quite thrilling. You miss the power of the big moments,though! There's something about a first recording though;and I do have a liking for old mono and the hiss of the old shellac recordings!! (Which is I tend to prefer the less interventionist approach of labels like,the late lamented,Pearl,to Dutton,for example). There's a nice selection on that Dutton cd,though. After reading your post I realised that the first recording of Job I owned was the Collins cd of Job,not the Handley!! I remember looking for it once,and being horrified by the prices sellers were asking!! I think the prices were high,the next time I looked,too! So,it's good news that it's being reissued by alto! Hope they choose some fitting artwork? It's important for anoraks like me,who are seduced by little things like that. I also think it helps sell copies. I think alto are usually quite good in that respect?! I presume the Belart cd must be the 1954 recording. It's usually cheap s/h,so I'll probably buy it at some point?!!

I found this information about Boult's recordings on Amazon,and have edited it down,so as to,hopefully,avoid annoying anyone (although,the reviewer would have got it from somewhere!) I don't know about the last bit,about a live 1946 recording?! Have a look in your attic maybe,vandermolen!!

1946 : BBCSO for HMV  Recorded :March 1946,Abbey Road Studio No.1, London,produced by Walter Legge,Paul Beard (violin) mono recording;

1954 : LPO. for London-Decca (recorded: January 1954,Kingsway Hall, London, Joseph Shadwick (violin,leader) mono recording

-1958 :LP. for Everest Records (recorded November 1958,Royal Albert Hall, London stereo recording

-1970 :L.S.O. for EMI Records,Kingsway Hall, London John Georgiadis (Violin,leader)

1972 : Live (centenary) perf. October 12, 1972,Royal Festival Hall,LPO/Boult Released ,subsequently,on Intaglio cd.

A live recording of a January 1946 performance at Symphony Hall. Boston with Boult conducting the Boston SO,may have survived & exist somewhere?!!


NB: Re: VW 6!  I downloaded some transfers from out of print Lp's from one of those blogs a while back. I put them on a cd-r,as I don't like listening at a pc. One of the recordings is described as the "revised Scherzo" from VW's Sixth symphony! It's just a short separate piece!!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 14, 2018, 06:06:11 AM
Unusually RVW decided to revise the Scherzo of the 6th Symphony after the work had been published and the 1st recording (by Boult) released - I have a copy of the original score.  The differences are not huge but hence the LP with both versions of the scherzo.  In an age where the fad to go back to the original is so pronounced I don't think anyone has revisited the 1st version of Symphony 6.  Perhaps the RVW Estate would not allow it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 14, 2018, 07:04:24 AM
This CD (v cheap on Amazon UK) features Boult's earliest (EMI) recording of Symphony 6 but with the revised scherzo. The original scherzo is a separate track on the CD. The fill ups are v good. I especially like the Thanksgiving for Victory/A Song of Thanksgiving.
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 14, 2018, 03:36:58 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 14, 2018, 05:19:58 AM
I just realised last night that I had the Boult recording of Job,on the Dutton cd,on a cd-r. I listened to it this morning. I think I downloaded it from one of those vinyl blogs. I paired the recording with VW's recording of No 4. I was aware of the Dutton cd,but wasn't sure which recording was on it? I didn't realise it had been recorded that early (1946!). I enjoyed that recording. Parts of the performance are quite thrilling. You miss the power of the big moments,though! There's something about a first recording though;and I do have a liking for old mono and the hiss of the old shellac recordings!! (Which is I tend to prefer the less interventionist approach of labels like,the late lamented,Pearl,to Dutton,for example). There's a nice selection on that Dutton cd,though. After reading your post I realised that the first recording of Job I owned was the Collins cd of Job,not the Handley!! I remember looking for it once,and being horrified by the prices sellers were asking!! I think the prices were high,the next time I looked,too! So,it's good news that it's being reissued by alto! Hope they choose some fitting artwork? It's important for anoraks like me,who are seduced by little things like that. I also think it helps sell copies. I think alto are usually quite good in that respect?! I presume the Belart cd must be the 1954 recording. It's usually cheap s/h,so I'll probably buy it at some point?!!

I found this information about Boult's recordings on Amazon,and have edited it down,so as to,hopefully,avoid annoying anyone (although,the reviewer would have got it from somewhere!) I don't know about the last bit,about a live 1946 recording?! Have a look in your attic maybe,vandermolen!!

1946 : BBCSO for HMV  Recorded :March 1946,Abbey Road Studio No.1, London,produced by Walter Legge,Paul Beard (violin) mono recording;

1954 : LPO. for London-Decca (recorded: January 1954,Kingsway Hall, London, Joseph Shadwick (violin,leader) mono recording

-1958 :LP. for Everest Records (recorded November 1958,Royal Albert Hall, London stereo recording

-1970 :L.S.O. for EMI Records,Kingsway Hall, London John Georgiadis (Violin,leader)

1972 : Live (centenary) perf. October 12, 1972,Royal Festival Hall,LPO/Boult Released ,subsequently,on Intaglio cd.

A live recording of a January 1946 performance at Symphony Hall. Boston with Boult conducting the Boston SO,may have survived & exist somewhere?!!


NB: Re: VW 6!  I downloaded some transfers from out of print Lp's from one of those blogs a while back. I put them on a cd-r,as I don't like listening at a pc. One of the recordings is described as the "revised Scherzo" from VW's Sixth symphony! It's just a short separate piece!!!
I like the combination of Job and Holst's Perfect Fool on the Collins CD. After all Holst and VW were great friends. On Alto the more populist couplings will be The Lark Ascending and Greensleeves. Alto only tend to release CDs of music by individual composers. I would like the cover to feature one of William Blake's powerful illustrations for Job, on which VW's masque is based. However, you can expect a lark themed cover to appeal to fans of that ubiquitous score. I did my best!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 15, 2018, 03:50:03 AM
I liked the combination of Job and the Perfect Fool;but I think an all VW program probably is better,and more my cup of tea! Also,I have so many recordings of The Perfect Fool. Including an off air recording of the,wonderful and entertaining,complete opera (Come on Lyrita/Chandos!!!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 15, 2018, 04:10:36 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 14, 2018, 06:06:11 AM
Unusually RVW decided to revise the Scherzo of the 6th Symphony after the work had been published and the 1st recording (by Boult) released - I have a copy of the original score.  The differences are not huge but hence the LP with both versions of the scherzo.  In an age where the fad to go back to the original is so pronounced I don't think anyone has revisited the 1st version of Symphony 6.  Perhaps the RVW Estate would not allow it.
Thank you for your reply! So,that clears that 'mystery' up! Vandermolen's  Dutton cd looks like a good find! I think I'll keep an eye out for that one. I'm wondering what the date of the recording (of the Sixth) on that Dutton cd is,though?! Could it be the one I've got on a cd-r,downloaded from that same vinyl blog? It does seem to figure!!) I also listened,yesterday,to a live recording of Sargent conducting VW's Ninth Symphoiny,at the Royal Festival Hall,in 1958,I gather. The audience are,thankfully,very quiet during the music making,but cough furiously and explosively between movements!! The sound was pretty good! I also listened to a very enjoyable performance of his London symphony,conducted by Barbirolli. I think it was transferred from a Pye Lp?!! And,as if that wasn't enough,a recording of Barbirolli conducting Bax's Fourth Symphony,which I really enjoyed. Also in pretty good sound,from same blog!! Please note,I always avoid anything from an 'in copyright' cd. Also,if I really like a recording,or composer,that much,I almost always end up buying it!! If I don't,it just gets chucked!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 15, 2018, 04:33:14 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 15, 2018, 04:10:36 AM
Thank you for your reply! So,that clears that 'mystery' up! Vandermolen's  Dutton cd looks like a good find! I think I'll keep an eye out for that one. I'm wondering what the date of the recording (of the Sixth) on that Dutton cd is,though?! Could it be the one I've got on a cd-r,downloaded from that same vinyl blog? It does seem to figure!!) I also listened,yesterday,to a live recording of Sargent conducting VW's Ninth Symphoiny,at the Royal Festival Hall,in 1958,I gather. The audience are,thankfully,very quiet during the music making,but cough furiously and explosively between movements!! The sound was pretty good! I also listened to a very enjoyable performance of his London symphony,conducted by Barbirolli. I think it was transferred from a Pye Lp?!! And,as if that wasn't enough,a recording of Barbirolli conducting Bax's Fourth Symphony,which I really enjoyed. Also in pretty good sound,from same blog!! Please note,I always avoid anything from an 'in copyright' cd. Also,if I really like a recording,or composer,that much,I almost always end up buying it!! If I don't,it just gets chucked!!

The Sixth Symphony was recorded in Studio No 1, Abbey Road on the 23-24 February 1949. The revised version of the Scherzo was recorded in the same venue on the 15 February 1950. The Dutton disc is a treasure, my favourite version of the Sixth.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 15, 2018, 05:02:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 15, 2018, 04:10:36 AM
Thank you for your reply! So,that clears that 'mystery' up! Vandermolen's  Dutton cd looks like a good find! I think I'll keep an eye out for that one. I'm wondering what the date of the recording (of the Sixth) on that Dutton cd is,though?! Could it be the one I've got on a cd-r,downloaded from that same vinyl blog? It does seem to figure!!) I also listened,yesterday,to a live recording of Sargent conducting VW's Ninth Symphoiny,at the Royal Festival Hall,in 1958,I gather. The audience are,thankfully,very quiet during the music making,but cough furiously and explosively between movements!! The sound was pretty good! I also listened to a very enjoyable performance of his London symphony,conducted by Barbirolli. I think it was transferred from a Pye Lp?!! And,as if that wasn't enough,a recording of Barbirolli conducting Bax's Fourth Symphony,which I really enjoyed. Also in pretty good sound,from same blog!! Please note,I always avoid anything from an 'in copyright' cd. Also,if I really like a recording,or composer,that much,I almost always end up buying it!! If I don't,it just gets chucked!!
'Barbirolli conducting Bax's 4th Symphony'   :o tell me more please.
Biffo is right. You must get the Dutton CD (under £2.00) on Amazon UK when I last looked. Stokowski's recording of Symphony 6 was actually the first record of the work. Boult's was released a day or two later I think. The Decca/Belart remains my favourite but that earlier recording should not be missed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 15, 2018, 05:03:39 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 15, 2018, 03:50:03 AM
I liked the combination of Job and the Perfect Fool;but I think an all VW program probably is better,and more my cup of tea! Also,I have so many recordings of The Perfect Fool. Including an off air recording of the,wonderful and entertaining,complete opera (Come on Lyrita/Chandos!!!)
The Alto CD will come out at the start of September.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 15, 2018, 05:19:29 AM
Thank you very much for your reply,Biffo! I will certainly keep an eye out for that recording. It does sound like (obviously,is!) a " must have"! :)

I just saw your reply,vandermolen. Actually,I downloaded the Barbirolli of Bax's Fourth Symphony from The Art Music Forum (AMF). It was,previously,on a vinyl blog (Metrognome) It should be available at the AMF,in the downloads there. The sound quality is pretty good. The Fourth usually gets the rap for being Bax's weakest. I always like it. All that surging,bracing sea music. I love it. It also has a different atmosphere to the other Bax symphonies. It's more outgoing,somehow. Less introspective. Exuberant! Something like that,anyway?!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 15, 2018, 01:49:14 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 15, 2018, 05:19:29 AM
Thank you very much for your reply,Biffo! I will certainly keep an eye out for that recording. It does sound like (obviously,is!) a " must have"! :)

I just saw your reply,vandermolen. Actually,I downloaded the Barbirolli of Bax's Fourth Symphony from The Art Music Forum (AMF). It was,previously,on a vinyl blog (Metrognome) It should be available at the AMF,in the downloads there. The sound quality is pretty good. The Fourth usually gets the rap for being Bax's weakest. I always like it. All that surging,bracing sea music. I love it. It also has a different atmosphere to the other Bax symphonies. It's more outgoing,somehow. Less introspective. Exuberant! Something like that,anyway?!! ::) ;D

OT

Yes, I rate Bax's 4th Symphony more highly than most. I actually prefer it to No.6 which many consider Bax's greatest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2018, 02:43:28 AM
So do I (prefer the Fourth to the Sixth).

I just had to buy Previn's recording of VW's Symphonies 3 & 4,last week,after reading through the lists of favourite recordings. I have heard the recordings before,mind;via the library (years ago) and I think I had a copy? Listening to it ,now,I can hear why the recording of the third is so highly rated. Heather Harper's solo is truly sublime. Time really seems to stand still,for a few moments. I think it might just be the loveliest ever (in a commercially release recording).

I've got more s/h cd sets in the post!!

The emi 2cd set of Barbirolli conducting the Sinfonia Antartica (and some other works,including,Elgar) I haven't heard his recording of the symphony!!
The emi 2cd set of Barbirolli conducting Delius (I have heard most of these recordings on Lp or cassette,in the past)
The emi 2cd set of Berglund conducting VW (and Gibson conducting No 5,I think?) Never heard any of these,as far as I know?!!
The emi cd of Barbirolli's 1954 mono recording of Elgar's Symphony No 2,which some people seem to prefer to his stereo recording (Cockaigne Ov & Dream Children,included). I like old mono recordings,so.....!!! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 24, 2018, 05:33:30 AM
Berglund conducted the Boston Symphony in the RVW Sixth some few seasons ago, and it was a singularly sublime experience.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 24, 2018, 05:41:00 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 24, 2018, 02:43:28 AM
So do I (prefer the Fourth to the Sixth).

I just had to buy Previn's recording of VW's Symphonies 3 & 4,last week,after reading through the lists of favourite recordings. I have heard the recordings before,mind;via the library (years ago) and I think I had a copy? Listening to it ,now,I can hear why the recording of the third is so highly rated. Heather Harper's solo is truly sublime. Time really seems to stand still,for a few moments. I think it might just be the loveliest ever (in a commercially release recording).

I've got more s/h cd sets in the post!!

The emi 2cd set of Barbirolli conducting the Sinfonia Antartica (and some other works,including,Elgar) I haven't heard his recording of the symphony!!
The emi 2cd set of Barbirolli conducting Delius (I have heard most of these recordings on Lp or cassette,in the past)
The emi 2cd set of Berglund conducting VW (and Gibson conducting No 5,I think?) Never heard any of these,as far as I know?!!
The emi cd of Barbirolli's 1954 mono recording of Elgar's Symphony No 2,which some people seem to prefer to his stereo recording (Cockaigne Ov & Dream Children,included). I like old mono recordings,so.....!!! :)
What an interesting collection. Don't know them all but Berglund's VW Symphony 4 was BBC Radio's 3's top choice in 'Building a Library'. Berglund's Sibelian VW Symphony 6 is one of the few, in my opinion, successful recordings of a work which seems to elude many conductors. Gibson's Symphony 5 has had more mixed reviews but I rate it very highly as well. Pity about all those wasps on the cover image - I'd have much preferred a lowering landscape with approaching storm. The Barbirolli VW is great too. He premiered the Antartica and his Oboe and Tuba Concerto are better than more modern recordings, although the late John Fletcher with Previn is excellent in the Tuba Concerto as well. I agree that Previn's recording of 'A Pastoral Symphony' is in a class of its own. Also his recording of the 1936 version of A London Symphony and Symphony No.8 are my favourites as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 24, 2018, 05:42:21 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 24, 2018, 05:33:30 AM
Berglund conducted the Boston Symphony in the RVW Sixth some few seasons ago, and it was a singularly sublime experience.
Did you get to hear it live Karl?
Sounds like a terrific concert.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 24, 2018, 05:50:05 AM
Live in the hall, it was a beauty.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2018, 09:25:47 AM
Lucky man! :)

I forgot one. I also bought the 2 cd emi set of Elgar conducting his suites,and some other music.
A pity the Wasps Overture is on that VW/Berglund cd,but I think I'll live. I actually,didn't realise what was on the front of that cd set,until after I bought it!!! A strange choice,really. Anyone would think the Wasps Overture was the main item!
No offence intended to hard working wasps,intended!! ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 24, 2018, 12:48:39 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 24, 2018, 09:25:47 AM
Lucky man! :)

I forgot one. I also bought the 2 cd emi set of Elgar conducting his suites,and some other music.
A pity the Wasps Overture is on that VW/Berglund cd,but I think I'll live. I actually,didn't realise what was on the front of that cd set,until after I bought it!!! A strange choice,really. Anyone would think the Wasps Overture was the main item!
No offence intended to hard working wasps,intended!! ;D

Well, at least there's a nice photo of VW in the set!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 25, 2018, 04:24:20 AM
I like wasps! Just not the Overture.........much!! ::) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 25, 2018, 08:44:59 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 25, 2018, 04:24:20 AM
I like wasps! Just not the Overture.........much!! ::) :)

No, it's  one of the few VW works which I don't like much.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 25, 2018, 09:32:47 AM
I don't like wasps. The overture was one of the first RVW work I got to know. Less keen on the Aristophanic Suite. Find the complete work with narrative tedious.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on July 27, 2018, 12:12:18 AM
Just to remind Vaughan Williams fans here that the BBC Prom tonight (27th July) on BBC Four TV and Radio 3 includes the Pastoral Symphony. The progamme also includes The Lark Ascending, but that's more common at the proms.

In fact, a very interesting line up I think:

Hubert Parry - Symphony No. 5 in B minor (27 mins)
Ralph Vaughan Williams - The Lark Ascending (15 mins)
INTERVAL
Hubert Parry - Hear my words, ye people (15 mins)
Gustav Holst - Ode to Death (12 mins)
Ralph Vaughan Williams- Pastoral Symphony (No. 3) (35 mins)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2018, 02:44:02 AM
Quote from: Oates on July 27, 2018, 12:12:18 AM
Just to remind Vaughan Williams fans here that the BBC Prom tonight (27th July) on BBC Four TV and Radio 3 includes the Pastoral Symphony. The progamme also includes The Lark Ascending, but that's more common at the proms.

In fact, a very interesting line up I think:

Hubert Parry - Symphony No. 5 in B minor (27 mins)
Ralph Vaughan Williams - The Lark Ascending (15 mins)
INTERVAL
Hubert Parry - Hear my words, ye people (15 mins)
Gustav Holst - Ode to Death (12 mins)
Ralph Vaughan Williams- Pastoral Symphony (No. 3) (35 mins)
A great programme - also for the Parry and Holst.
Parry's 5th Symphony is his greatest symphony I think.
A bit of a 'family affair' as Parry was the teacher of Vaughan Williams and Holst and VW and Holst were close friends.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 27, 2018, 03:08:11 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 25, 2018, 04:24:20 AM
I like wasps! Just not the Overture.........much!! ::) :)

Quote from: vandermolen on July 25, 2018, 08:44:59 AM
No, it's  one of the few VW works which I don't like much.

I like The Wasps Overture...muchly ;D  I love especially the big central "Elgarian" tune.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2018, 03:42:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 27, 2018, 03:08:11 AM
I like The Wasps Overture...muchly ;D  I love especially the big central "Elgarian" tune.

Sarge

Good to hear Sarge.

Keep on buzzing.

8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 27, 2018, 06:24:44 AM
Quote from: Oates on July 27, 2018, 12:12:18 AM
Just to remind Vaughan Williams fans here that the BBC Prom tonight (27th July) on BBC Four TV and Radio 3 includes the Pastoral Symphony. The progamme also includes The Lark Ascending, but that's more common at the proms.

In fact, a very interesting line up I think:

Hubert Parry - Symphony No. 5 in B minor (27 mins)
Ralph Vaughan Williams - The Lark Ascending (15 mins)
INTERVAL
Hubert Parry - Hear my words, ye people (15 mins)
Gustav Holst - Ode to Death (12 mins)
Ralph Vaughan Williams- Pastoral Symphony (No. 3) (35 mins)

Hmmm . . . not sure I have heard the Holst . . . and the title suggests a Whitman setting?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 27, 2018, 07:07:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 27, 2018, 06:24:44 AM
Hmmm . . . not sure I have heard the Holst . . . and the title suggests a Whitman setting?

It is indeed Whitman, a setting of 'When lilacs last in the Dooryard Bloom'd'. Written in 1919 it was prompted by the terrible loss of life in WW1. I have a recording of it by Richard Hickox (Chandos). I haven't heard it for some time and can't remember much about it but am refraining from playing it as I hope to listen to the Prom on iPlayer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2018, 09:42:13 AM
Holst has been the 'victim' of the popularity of The Planets Suite - he wrote so much more of interest and is one of my favourite composers. The early Cloud Messenger has a magical proto-minimalist section and I love the Perfect Fool ballet music, the Choral Symphony, Egdon Heath and much else besides. Unlike Vaughan Williams, his great friend, he was not independently wealthy and had to work as a school teacher ( oh, the Horror!  8))!so could only compose in the school holiday.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2018, 09:46:55 AM
'Ode to Death' is a great piece!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 27, 2018, 10:12:04 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 27, 2018, 09:42:13 AM
Holst has been the 'victim' of the popularity of The Planets Suite - he wrote so much more of interest and is one of my favourite composers. The early Cloud Messenger has a magical proto-minimalist section and I love the Perfect Fool ballet music, the Choral Symphony, Egdon Heath and much else besides. Unlike Vaughan Williams, his great friend, he was not independently wealthy and had to work as a school teacher ( oh, the Horror!  8))!so could only compose in the school holiday.

Well, and I know an excellent English composer whose creative work is curtailed partly by his working as a school teacher!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on July 27, 2018, 10:17:55 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 27, 2018, 10:12:04 AM
Well, and I know an excellent English composer whose creative work is curtailed partly by his working as a school teacher!
Hey, so do I..
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 27, 2018, 10:21:29 AM
Quote from: North Star on July 27, 2018, 10:17:55 AM
Hey, so do I..

May well be the same chap!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 28, 2018, 04:26:55 AM
The 2 cd emi set of Barbirolli conducting VW and Elgar arrived today. I loved the Tuba concerto. That's a very enjoyable work. I did like it. It's obviously a cracking performance. I'm listening to his recording of the Sinfonia Antartica right now. First impression. The mono recording by Boult has,I think,more of a feeling of foreboding and menace;but I like this,and it's too early to say. I'll need to absorb this recording over a period of time. I do think the Boult recording scores more in the doom laden and desolation department,though?! :-\ :)

(https://i.imgur.com/VnnFBSe.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 28, 2018, 06:17:38 AM
I've just listened to last night's Prom on the BBC iPlayer. An excellent concert all round with some fine singing and playing. For me, the highlight was the Pastoral Symphony, beautifully played by the BBC NOW. Brabbins has recorded the London Symphony, I hope he will now record the Pastoral.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 28, 2018, 06:23:26 AM
Quote from: Biffo on July 28, 2018, 06:17:38 AM
I've just listened to last night's Prom on the BBC iPlayer. An excellent concert all round with some fine singing and playing. For me, the highlight was the Pastoral Symphony, beautifully played by the BBC NOW. Brabbins has recorded the London Symphony, I hope he will now record the Pastoral.

He has a new recording of the Sea Symphony coming out.  It is this one: http://elizabethwattssoprano.com/?event=vaughan-williams-sea-symphony-with-bbc-scottish-orchestra-brabbins-at-edinburgh-festival (http://elizabethwattssoprano.com/?event=vaughan-williams-sea-symphony-with-bbc-scottish-orchestra-brabbins-at-edinburgh-festival)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 28, 2018, 06:30:33 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 28, 2018, 06:23:26 AM
He has a new recording of the Sea Symphony coming out.  It is this one: http://elizabethwattssoprano.com/?event=vaughan-williams-sea-symphony-with-bbc-scottish-orchestra-brabbins-at-edinburgh-festival (http://elizabethwattssoprano.com/?event=vaughan-williams-sea-symphony-with-bbc-scottish-orchestra-brabbins-at-edinburgh-festival)

Many thanks for tip off, I will keep an eye for it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Augustus on July 28, 2018, 12:38:52 PM
Brabbins is recording a complete VW symphony cycle with the BBC SO for Hyperion.  The fillers are going to be a good number of VW rarities, as with the first CD of the London Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 01, 2018, 04:11:10 AM
I've always been rather hung up on Boult's 1950s recording of Symphony 6 on Decca/Belart which had such a profound effect on me when I first heard it, whilst still at school. However, today I listened to the even earlier EMI recording (1949-1950) and had never before been as impressed with it. In fact the relentless second movement is possibly more effectively intimidating here than on any other recording. I think that the transfer here is even more effective than on Dutton. It is with the LSO rather than the LPO in the Decca recording. I like the box as you get more than one recording of works like Job, the Tallis Fantasia and the 6th Symphony which Boult recorded more than once for EMI:
[asin]B00B2GYJ3U[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on August 01, 2018, 07:59:17 AM
World premiere recording of these works on the SOMM label:

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/rear/0/0748871324626.jpg)



What is this VW fantasia ? I didn't know it existed... :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on August 01, 2018, 08:05:00 AM
Quote from: André on August 01, 2018, 07:59:17 AM
World premiere recording of these works on the SOMM label:

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/rear/0/0748871324626.jpg)



What is this VW fantasia ? I didn't know it existed... :o

Quote
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/fantasia-for-piano-and-orchestra-9780193388253?cc=fi&lang=en&#
Forces or Category: Piano & orchestra/2 pianos
Orchestration: pno - 2 fl, 2 ob, 2 cl, 2 bsn - 4 hn, 2 tpt, 3 tbn, tba - timp - perc - str

Vaughan Williams began this work - his earliest known piece for a solo instrument with orchestra - in 1896, shortly after returning to the Royal College of Music to study composition with Stanford, and completed it in 1904. After his death, the manuscript was donated to the British Library, and it was here that the pianist Mark Bebbington rediscovered it in 2010, subsequently recording it for Somm Records. The work shows influences of late nineteenth-century composers, but also hallmarks of Vaughan Williams's later style and maturity. As such, it offers a fascinating glimpse into the composer's development, as well as being a powerful work in its own right. This is its first publication; a reduction for two pianos is also available on sale. Orchestral material is available on hire/rental.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on August 01, 2018, 09:46:58 AM
Super, thanks ! In the cart it goes... :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 02, 2018, 04:48:14 AM
Quote from: André on August 01, 2018, 09:46:58 AM
Super, thanks ! In the cart it goes... :)

It's a fine and very enjoyable disc Andre.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on August 02, 2018, 05:35:28 AM
I should have known you were familiar with it, Jeffrey !   :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 02, 2018, 06:07:49 AM
For anyone just interested in the RVW Fantasia for piano etc it is available on Spotify.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 04, 2018, 09:41:03 PM
Quote from: Biffo on July 28, 2018, 06:17:38 AM
I've just listened to last night's Prom on the BBC iPlayer. An excellent concert all round with some fine singing and playing. For me, the highlight was the Pastoral Symphony, beautifully played by the BBC NOW. Brabbins has recorded the London Symphony, I hope he will now record the Pastoral.

Coincidently, the Pastoral with Brabbins is due out for release on Hyperion in a few months. I saw a photo of the cover via a Hyperion email. I'll have to see if I can find it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 04, 2018, 11:15:12 PM
Quote from: Biffo on August 02, 2018, 06:07:49 AM
For anyone just interested in the RVW Fantasia for piano etc it is available on Spotify.
Even at YouTube, for those doing without Spotify: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l9vC4GaM8QU
It's 'very early RVW' though, composed in 1896-99, and was later discarded together with all other major compositions from this stage. Not characteristic of his later style, but still well worth hearing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on August 05, 2018, 06:17:20 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 04, 2018, 11:15:12 PM
Even at YouTube, for those doing without Spotify: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l9vC4GaM8QU
It's 'very early RVW' though, composed in 1896-99, and was later discarded together with all other major compositions from this stage. Not characteristic of his later style, but still well worth hearing.

I love hearing early works by composers as notable as RVW.  Even early juvenilia has something to say and inform of the genius to come. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 05, 2018, 07:27:56 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 05, 2018, 06:17:20 AM
I love hearing early works by composers as notable as RVW.  Even early juvenilia has something to say and inform of the genius to come.
+1 and his early Piano Quintet has been a lovely discovery for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 08, 2018, 03:10:35 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 04, 2018, 09:41:03 PM
Coincidently, the Pastoral with Brabbins is due out for release on Hyperion in a few months. I saw a photo of the cover via a Hyperion email. I'll have to see if I can find it.

The Sea Symphony conducted by Brabbins is due for release by Hyperion on September 28 - can't find any mention of the Pastoral
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 08, 2018, 04:51:43 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 08, 2018, 03:10:35 AM
The Sea Symphony conducted by Brabbins is due for release by Hyperion on September 28 - can't find any mention of the Pastoral

I really liked the 1920 (my favourite version) of A London Symphony by Brabbins with interesting additional works. However, I'm not sure if I will collect the rest of the series. In retrospect I wish I hadn't started collecting the Elder and Manze cycles. Good as they are (Elder's 'A Pastoral Symphony' for example) I don't consider either cycle to be superior to the classic cycles by Boult and Previn, not to mention Bryden Thompson or Haitink. I probably won't be able to resist Symphony 9 when it comes out however.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 08, 2018, 05:18:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 08, 2018, 04:51:43 AM
I really liked the 1920 (my favourite version) of A London Symphony by Brabbins with interesting additional works. However, I'm not sure if I will collect the rest of the series. In retrospect I wish I hadn't started collecting the Elder and Manze cycles. Good as they are (Elder's 'A Pastoral Symphony' for example) I don't consider either cycle to be superior to the classic cycles by Boult and Previn, not to mention Bryden Thompson or Haitink. I probably won't be able to resist Symphony 9 when it comes out however.

I just can't resist any new recording of the symphonies. The Elder series was outstanding but then came down to earth with a crash in Nos 4 & 6. The earlier cycles probably have their weaknesses too if we were honest and Boult needs remastering though I am not sure I would buy it again even then............well perhaps No 5 and the Pastoral and the London....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on August 08, 2018, 06:04:53 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 08, 2018, 05:18:19 AM
I just can't resist any new recording of the symphonies. The Elder series was outstanding but then came down to earth with a crash in Nos 4 & 6. The earlier cycles probably have their weaknesses too if we were honest and Boult needs remastering though I am not sure I would buy it again even then............well perhaps No 5 and the Pastoral and the London....

Remind me why Elder's 4 & 6 was bad.   Was it sleepy?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Draško on August 08, 2018, 06:04:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 08, 2018, 04:51:43 AM
Good as they are (Elder's 'A Pastoral Symphony' for example)

Elder's Pastoral is absolutely superb. My favorite recording of the piece, by wide margin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 08, 2018, 06:44:34 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 08, 2018, 06:04:53 AM
Remind me why Elder's 4 & 6 was bad.   Was it sleepy?

Lacklustre is how I would describe No 4. No 6 was better but still a disappointment, particularly after the high standard of the earlier releases.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 08, 2018, 09:18:10 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 08, 2018, 06:44:34 AM
Lacklustre is how I would describe No 4. No 6 was better but still a disappointment, particularly after the high standard of the earlier releases.
+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 11, 2018, 02:46:12 AM
Currently Record Review on BBC Radio 3 has a feature where a guest reviewer chooses five 'essential' works by a composer whose works are being played in the Proms season. Today the composer was RVW and the reviewer Mark Lowther. He stressed that it was a personal choice and described the Tuba Concerto as 'a wild card'. Here are his choices -

(1) Songs of Travel - Bryn Terfel (from 'The Vagabond')
(2) A Sea Symphony - Haitink/LPO
(3) Fifth Symphony - Barbirolli/Philharmonia
(4) Tuba Concerto - Fletcher/LSO/Previn (a wild card)
(5) Tallis Fantasia - Silvestri/Bournemouth SO

Anyone have any thoughts?

I find it difficult to choose five essential symphonies let alone from the entire output but here goes. I haven't chosen any songs or chamber music as, though I have various recordings, they are less essential to me and, after much agonising, included only one symphony.

(1) Tallis Fantasia - Barbirolli/Sinfonia of London
(2) Pastoral Symphony - Previn/LSO
(3) Job - Boult/LPO
(4) Dona nobis pacem - Boult/LPO
(5) The Pilgrim's Progress - Hickox/ Orchestra of the ROH etc

Numerous personal favourites have been sacrificed to fit the format.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 11, 2018, 03:49:56 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 11, 2018, 02:46:12 AM
Anyone have any thoughts?
Without checking anything specifically (I might forget a few recordings), five personal favourites would be:

1. Tallis Fantasia - Barbirolli
2. A Pastoral Symphony - Elder/Halle
3. Sixth Symphony - Thomson/LSO
4. Dona nobis pacem - Boult/LPO
5. Three Portraits from The England of Elizabeth - Previn (wild card)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 11, 2018, 04:10:59 AM
Off the top of my head:

Symphony 6 (Boult, LPO Decca with VW speech at end)
A London Symphony 1913 (Hickox)
Pilgrim's Progress (Hickox)
Double Piano Concerto (Boult/Vronsky/Babin)

Wild card:

Fantasia on the Old 104th (Boult's is the only recording I think)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Draško on August 11, 2018, 04:20:43 AM
- Tallis Fantasia (Barbirolli, Marriner)
- Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus (Willcocks)
- A Pastoral Symphony (Elder)
- A London Symphony (1913 Hickox)
- Oboe Concerto (Bourge/Boughton)
- Symphony No.5 (Previn II)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 11, 2018, 09:25:20 AM
Quote from: Draško on August 11, 2018, 04:20:43 AM
- Tallis Fantasia (Barbirolli, Marriner)
- Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus (Willcocks)
- A Pastoral Symphony (Elder)
- A London Symphony (1913 Hickox)
- Oboe Concerto (Bourge/Boughton)
- Symphony No.5 (Previn II)

Your the first to mention the Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus which I listen to more often than the Tallis Fantasia. My favourite recording is the one by Barbirolli which I first discovered on a fine old EMI LP taken out of a record library in my youth. Its couplings were the Oboe Concerto and Rubbra's 5th Symphony. It was my introduction to three marvellous works.

I think I should have included Dona Nobis Pacem in my list, which I'm seeing in concert tomorrow. Boult's would be my preferred choice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 12, 2018, 03:10:24 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 11, 2018, 09:25:20 AM
Your the first to mention the Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus which I listen to more often than the Tallis Fantasia. My favourite recording is the one by Barbirolli which I first discovered on a fine old EMI LP taken out of a record library in my youth. Its couplings were the Oboe Concerto and Rubbra's 5th Symphony. It was my introduction to three marvellous works.

I think I should have included Dona Nobis Pacem in my list, which I'm seeing in concert tomorrow. Boult's would be my preferred choice.

Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus is a beautiful work but, for me, not in the same class as the Tallis Fantasia, a work I am obsessed with. I first heard FVDL on an Argo LP from Marriner/ASMF. Your mention of Barbirolli drove me nuts - I was sure I must have it somewhere. The Rubbra symphony has been shuffled off to accompany Britten's Violin Concerto (original version). I eventually found the Five Variants in the two disc set that contains Barbirolli's performance of the Sinfonia antartica; it is a superb performance, shame he didn't record it again in stereo though the 1998 remastering is very good.

If I was tempted to include a wild card it would be Five Tudor Portraits (Hickox/LSO) though mainly for 'Jane Scroop'. The Hickox disc also contains a fine performance of FVDL.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 12, 2018, 04:05:11 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 11, 2018, 02:46:12 AM
Currently Record Review on BBC Radio 3 has a feature where a guest reviewer chooses five 'essential' works by a composer

My five for today:

Symphony No.1 Boult/LPO (EMI)
Symphony No.4 Bernstein/New York
Symphony No.8 Haitink/LPO
Toward the Unknown Region Thomson/LSO
Serenade to Music Boult/LPO


Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Draško on August 12, 2018, 04:12:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 11, 2018, 09:25:20 AM
Your the first to mention the Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus ...

My taste in Vaughan Williams does tend to run strongly toward his more pastoral side. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on August 12, 2018, 04:49:05 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 28, 2018, 06:23:26 AM
He has a new recording of the Sea Symphony coming out.  It is this one: http://elizabethwattssoprano.com/?event=vaughan-williams-sea-symphony-with-bbc-scottish-orchestra-brabbins-at-edinburgh-festival (http://elizabethwattssoprano.com/?event=vaughan-williams-sea-symphony-with-bbc-scottish-orchestra-brabbins-at-edinburgh-festival)

I was in this performance which was earlier this week. It was recorded by the BBC, but no one mentioed to us that it might be issued as a disc. I think it has only been recorded for future broadcasting. The performance has been very well received. He did not linger unduly, so there is no wallowing.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2018, 04:52:19 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 12, 2018, 03:10:24 AM
Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus is a beautiful work but, for me, not in the same class as the Tallis Fantasia, a work I am obsessed with. I first heard FVDL on an Argo LP from Marriner/ASMF. Your mention of Barbirolli drove me nuts - I was sure I must have it somewhere. The Rubbra symphony has been shuffled off to accompany Britten's Violin Concerto (original version). I eventually found the Five Variants in the two disc set that contains Barbirolli's performance of the Sinfonia antartica; it is a superb performance, shame he didn't record it again in stereo though the 1998 remastering is very good.

If I was tempted to include a wild card it would be Five Tudor Portraits (Hickox/LSO) though mainly for 'Jane Scroop'. The Hickox disc also contains a fine performance of FVDL.

It took me a few minutes to work out what FVDL meant  ::). I rather like the Five Tudor Portraits (FTP) which has grown on me over the years. I recently discovered a fine version conducted by William Steinberg. I agree, however, that Hickox's FTP/FVDL is a great coupling on Chandos.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 12, 2018, 04:59:06 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 11, 2018, 02:46:12 AM
Currently Record Review on BBC Radio 3 has a feature where a guest reviewer chooses five 'essential' works by a composer whose works are being played in the Proms season. Today the composer was RVW and the reviewer Mark Lowther. He stressed that it was a personal choice and described the Tuba Concerto as 'a wild card'. Here are his choices -

(1) Songs of Travel - Bryn Terfel (from 'The Vagabond')
(2) A Sea Symphony - Haitink/LPO
(3) Fifth Symphony - Barbirolli/Philharmonia
(4) Tuba Concerto - Fletcher/LSO/Previn (a wild card)
(5) Tallis Fantasia - Silvestri/Bournemouth SO

Anyone have any thoughts?

I find it difficult to choose five essential symphonies let alone from the entire output but here goes. I haven't chosen any songs or chamber music as, though I have various recordings, they are less essential to me and, after much agonising, included only one symphony.

(1) Tallis Fantasia - Barbirolli/Sinfonia of London
(2) Pastoral Symphony - Previn/LSO
(3) Job - Boult/LPO
(4) Dona nobis pacem - Boult/LPO
(5) The Pilgrim's Progress - Hickox/ Orchestra of the ROH etc

Numerous personal favourites have been sacrificed to fit the format.

Without contesting his choice (he did say—what we all know to be true, anyway—that is personal) I do wonder what he finds essential about the Tuba Concerto.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 12, 2018, 05:00:54 AM
Quote from: knight66 on August 12, 2018, 04:49:05 AM
I was in this performance which was earlier this week. It was recorded by the BBC, but no one mentioed to us that it might be issued as a disc. I think it has only been recorded for future broadcasting. The performance has been very well received. He did not linger unduly, so there is no wallowing.

Mike

The Hyperion release (September 28) is not the same as the Edinburgh performance, it has a different orchestra (BBC SO), soloists etc -

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68245

I look forward to hearing your performance when it is eventually broadcast.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 12, 2018, 05:06:29 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 12, 2018, 04:59:06 AM
Without contesting his choice (he did say—what we all know to be true, anyway—that is personal) I do wonder what he finds essential about the Tuba Concerto.

He did stress it was a 'wild card' choice and seemed as much concerned with the artistry of John Fletcher as the work itself. I wasn't convinced it was 'essential' even though the reviewer thought it a more substantial work than it is usually given credit for.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 12, 2018, 05:09:13 AM
Thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on August 12, 2018, 05:17:48 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 12, 2018, 05:00:54 AM
The Hyperion release (September 28) is not the same as the Edinburgh performance, it has a different orchestra (BBC SO), soloists etc -

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68245

I look forward to hearing your performance when it is eventually broadcast.

Ha, well that scuppers it from being released stuck to the front of the BBC magazine, a pity. The broadcast will be especially worthwhile for the Thea Musgrave performance which preceded the Sea Symphony. Turbulent Landscapes is an exceptional piece and Brabanns brought out a terrific range of colours and sonorities. More than in the only current recording that I could find.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 12, 2018, 07:20:38 AM
Last night's concert, under the stars on a beautiful summer evening:

Grant Park Orchestra
Carlos Kalmar, conductor
Pablo Ferrández, cellist
Prokofiev: Sinfonia Concertante
Ives: The Unanswered Question
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 4

Finally I got the chance to hear my favorite VW symphony live. And hooray, it was a stunning performance. The general approach was fast and kind of neo-classical, but with a huge amount of energy. Pairing it with the Prokofiev brought out some similarities between the two composers that I wouldn't have normally suspected. I was also struck by how much the scherzo reminded me of Holst's "Jupiter" - something I hadn't thought of before.

Great playing from all sections of the orchestra, but especially the brass. Big ovation from the large audience at the end. I noted with a certain irony the large number of listeners having picnics on the lawn, even though the liner notes for the Previn recording of this (the first one I got) said that the 4th was "not music for picnics."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 12, 2018, 07:25:05 AM
Cool program!  (Did I say that before?...)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on August 12, 2018, 03:44:27 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 12, 2018, 07:20:38 AM
Last night's concert, under the stars on a beautiful summer evening:

Grant Park Orchestra
Carlos Kalmar, conductor
Pablo Ferrández, cellist
Prokofiev: Sinfonia Concertante
Ives: The Unanswered Question
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 4

Finally I got the chance to hear my favorite VW symphony live. And hooray, it was a stunning performance. The general approach was fast and kind of neo-classical, but with a huge amount of energy. Pairing it with the Prokofiev brought out some similarities between the two composers that I wouldn't have normally suspected. I was also struck by how much the scherzo reminded me of Holst's "Jupiter" - something I hadn't thought of before.

Great playing from all sections of the orchestra, but especially the brass. Big ovation from the large audience at the end. I noted with a certain irony the large number of listeners having picnics on the lawn, even though the liner notes for the Previn recording of this (the first one I got) said that the 4th was "not music for picnics."

Sounds like a great program! Ferrández is a terrific cellist - I'm sure he tackled the monstrously difficult Prokofiev with ease - and Kalmar is a fine conductor who is to be commended for often programming lesser-known works. While the RVW 4th may be very familiar fare to us at GMG, it's hardly ever played by American orchestras (none of his symphonies are, for that matter). I happened to be in Chicago last summer when Kalmar and his Grant Park band performed Frank Martin's oratorio In terra pax - a most moving experience.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 12, 2018, 04:21:03 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 12, 2018, 07:20:38 AM
Last night's concert, under the stars on a beautiful summer evening:

Grant Park Orchestra
Carlos Kalmar, conductor
Pablo Ferrández, cellist
Prokofiev: Sinfonia Concertante
Ives: The Unanswered Question
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 4

Finally I got the chance to hear my favorite VW symphony live. And hooray, it was a stunning performance. The general approach was fast and kind of neo-classical, but with a huge amount of energy. Pairing it with the Prokofiev brought out some similarities between the two composers that I wouldn't have normally suspected. I was also struck by how much the scherzo reminded me of Holst's "Jupiter" - something I hadn't thought of before.

Great playing from all sections of the orchestra, but especially the brass. Big ovation from the large audience at the end. I noted with a certain irony the large number of listeners having picnics on the lawn, even though the liner notes for the Previn recording of this (the first one I got) said that the 4th was "not music for picnics."

Awesome! Glad you went, and my brother was on 2nd bone so I'll pass along your kind words to him  :)
. This was the one GPO concert I really wanted to see this summer but didn't make it this year.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 12, 2018, 04:50:34 PM
Quote from: kyjo on August 12, 2018, 03:44:27 PM
. While the RVW 4th may be very familiar fare to us at GMG, it's hardly ever played by American orchestras (none of his symphonies are, for that matter).

We're lucky to have Kalmar here - this is the 3rd VW symphony I've heard under his baton in the last few years. The 5th was a few years ago, and last year they did A Sea Symphony (which unfortunately turned into A Rain Symphony so I had to leave before it finished).

Here's another review of last night's concert:

http://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2018/08/ferrandez-gives-prokofievs-sinfonia-concertante-a-stunning-grant-park-premiere/

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 12, 2018, 04:21:03 PM
Awesome! Glad you went, and my brother was on 2nd bone so I'll pass along your kind words to him  :)

Yes, I expected him to be there... the piece is really quite a workout for brass! But the whole orchestra sounded good, all the way through.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on August 12, 2018, 05:32:15 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 12, 2018, 04:50:34 PM
last year they did A Sea Symphony (which unfortunately turned into A Rain Symphony so I had to leave before it finished).

:laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2018, 02:39:10 AM
Well, for me last night's concert (fortunately indoors during a rainy London evening) was:

Lili Boulanger: ' Pour les funerailles d'un soldat'

Elgar: Cello Concerto

Vaughan Williams: Dona Nobis Pacem

Sophie Bevan: Soprano
Neal Davies: bass-baritone
Jean-Guihen Queyras: cello

BBC Symphony Chorus
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Edward Gardner: conductor

Royal Albert Hall, London (Prom 41)

The Boulanger score was a wonderful work, a deeply moving threnody which references the Dies Ire theme. This year, of course, not only commemorates the 100th anniversary of the end of World War One but also the 100th anniversary of the tragically early death of Lili Boulanger herself (her final writings express her concerns about the war). She was so young - only 24 having suffered with Crohn's disease since she was 3. Nowadays that should have been cured or controlled, such a lost talent. My daughter who came along loved hearing the work as well and Elgar's Cello Concerto is her favourite classical work.

Dona Nobis Pacem was given an outstanding performance (faster and more urgent than some recordings) by Edward Gardner. I have heard it live before but this was the best performance I have ever heard. The excellent soprano was placed behind the choir next to the organ, which I thought worked even better than having her alongside the bass-baritone at the front. Altogether a great concert and do hear the Boulanger work if you don't know it.

Here's a link:

https://youtu.be/kl7UT8F_Y4I
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 13, 2018, 02:44:48 AM
Wonderful program.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2018, 02:50:48 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 13, 2018, 02:44:48 AM
Wonderful program.

Cheers Karl😀

Actually it's unusual for me to hear three works and like them all and I was at last Friday's Prom as well where I also enjoyed all three works.

Haydn's Creation ( brief extract) interestingly morphed into Bernstein's 'Jeremiah Symphony' ( which was why I was at the concert) and in the second half I heard a fine performance of Mahler's First Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 13, 2018, 03:27:09 AM
Nice!  And, a very Lenny concert, so to say.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2018, 03:36:09 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 13, 2018, 03:27:09 AM
Nice!  And, a very Lenny concert, so to say.

Yes, very Lenny Karl!
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 13, 2018, 05:17:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 13, 2018, 02:39:10 AM
Well, for me last night's concert (fortunately indoors during a rainy London evening) was:

Lili Boulanger: ' Pour les funerailles d'un soldat'

Elgar: Cello Concerto

Vaughan Williams: Dona Nobis Pacem

Sophie Bevan: Soprano
Neal Davies: bass-baritone
Jean-Guihen Queyras: cello

BBC Symphony Chorus
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Edward Gardner: conductor

Royal Albert Hall, London (Prom 41)

The Boulanger score was a wonderful work, a deeply moving threnody which references the Dies Ire theme. This year, of course, not only commemorates the 100th anniversary of the end of World War One but also the 100th anniversary of the tragically early death of Lili Boulanger herself (her final writings express her concerns about the war). She was so young - only 24 having suffered with Crohn's disease since she was 3. Nowadays that should have been cured or controlled, such a lost talent. My daughter who came along loved hearing the work as well and Elgar's Cello Concerto is her favourite classical work.

Dona Nobis Pacem was given an outstanding performance (faster and more urgent than some recordings) by Edward Gardner. I have heard it live before but this was the best performance I have ever heard. The excellent soprano was placed behind the choir next to the organ, which I thought worked even better than having her alongside the bass-baritone at the front. Altogether a great concert and do hear the Boulanger work if you don't know it.

Here's a link:

https://youtu.be/kl7UT8F_Y4I
VERY JEALOUS! (But was happy enough to hear Dona Nobis Pacem performed three times, over the years).  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2018, 06:27:37 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 13, 2018, 05:17:48 AM
VERY JEALOUS! (But was happy enough to hear Dona Nobis Pacem performed three times, over the years).  ;D
It was a great concert Johan. I think that I've only heard DNP live once before, at the Royal Festival Hall, although I found it more atmospheric in the Albert Hall. The programme notes suggested that VW's large choral works have not fared very well at the proms with only one or two previous outings for DNP and Sancta Civitas. The Lili Boulanger work had never been performed there before.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on August 16, 2018, 12:45:40 AM
I heard the RVW 3rd Symphony in concert at the Edinburgh Festival this week. It was played by the Canadian Natiaonal Youth Orchestra. It was far from an obvious work to tour with, but deeply rewarding. Jonathan Darlington was their conductor, a guy to look out for.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 16, 2018, 01:01:39 AM
Quote from: knight66 on August 16, 2018, 12:45:40 AM
I heard the RVW 3rd Symphony in concert at the Edinburgh Festival this week. It was played by the Canadian Natiaonal Youth Orchestra. It was far from an obvious work to tour with, but deeply rewarding. Jonathan Darlington was their conductor, a guy to look out for.

Mike

I'm always pleased to hear of non-British orchestras performing Vaughan Williams. The recent Chandos release of the Piano Concerto and Flos Campi etc. was also by Canadian musicians.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 08, 2018, 01:20:37 PM
I greatly enjoyed the new recording of A Sea Symphony, finding it gripping throughout and finding the short additional Whitman setting rather moving. Maybe Haitink remains my favourite but this is the best version I have heard in a long time. I found the recording a bit cavernous at first but soon got used to it:
[asin]B07FR35N7J[/asin]
This is more interesting than it looks as The Lark Ascending is prefaced by the actress Niamh Cusack reading the Meredith poem on which the work is based. I found the work following on from the poem to be more effective that usual for this ubiquitous score. Wordsworth's 'Job' is by far the best version since Boult (the dedicatee) in my view:
[asin]B07G1Z1D2R[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 12, 2018, 12:43:24 AM
Another disc with nothing but (world) premieres will arrive next week:
[asin]B07FLGJWF7[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 12, 2018, 12:49:10 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 12, 2018, 12:43:24 AM
Another disc with nothing but (world) premieres will arrive next week:
[asin]B07FLGJWF7[/asin]
Let us know what you think Johan.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 12, 2018, 01:00:56 AM
During this year's Edinburgh Festival I was in chorus for Martyn Brabbins' performance of the Sea Symphony. The concert is being broadcast on the radio Thur 13th Sept, (tomorrow), in the evening and will then be available of the BBCiPlayer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000bpf



The performance got very good reviews, but perhaps even better is the sensational performance beforehand of Musgrave's Turbulent Landscapes.

The following review gives a vivid account of the Musgrave.

https://bachtrack.com/review-vaughan-williams-brabbins-watts-bbc-scottish-symphony-orchestra-usher-hall-edinburgh-august-2018


Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 12, 2018, 01:05:43 AM
Quote from: knight66 on September 12, 2018, 01:00:56 AM
During this year's Edinburgh Festival I was in chorus for Martyn Brabbins' performance of the Sea Symphony. The concert is being broadcast on the radio Thur 13th Sept, (tomorrow), in the evening and will then be available of the BBCiPlayer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000bpf



The performance got very good reviews, but perhaps even better is the sensational performance beforehand of Musgrave's Turbulent Landscapes.

The following review gives a vivid account of the Musgrave.

https://bachtrack.com/review-vaughan-williams-brabbins-watts-bbc-scottish-symphony-orchestra-usher-hall-edinburgh-august-2018



Mike

Thanks for the info, I will certainly listen to it on iPlayer when it becomes available.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 12, 2018, 06:10:06 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 12, 2018, 12:43:24 AM
Another disc with nothing but (world) premieres will arrive next week:
[asin]B07FLGJWF7[/asin]

Tobacco's But an Indian Weed!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on September 12, 2018, 08:05:25 AM
Blimey, new RVW CDs are coming thick and fast this week! Look at this from Dutton:


https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7351


The Blue Bird (1913)
Orchestrated by Martin Yates (2017)
1. No. 1 Introduction & First Dance (Moderato)
2. No. 2 The Clock Strikes (Più mosso)
3. No. 3 The Dance of the Hours (Andante piacevole)
4. No. 4 The Dance of the Loaves (Allegro giocoso)
5. No. 5 The Dance of the Fire (Allegro ma non troppo)
6. No. 6 The Dance of the Water (Molto moderato)
7. No. 7 The Fight between Fire and Water (Allegro con brio)
8. No. 8 General Dance (Allegro con brio)
9. No. 9 Finale (Molto adagio)

10. Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1 in E minor (1906 rev. 1914)

11. Norfolk Rhapsody No. 2 in D minor (1906)
Edited and completed by Stephen Hogger (2001)

DAVID MATTHEWS

12. Norfolk March (2016)

RALPH VAUGHAN WILLIAMS

Variations for Orchestra (1957) Orchestrated by Gordon Jacob (1959)
13. Introduction (Andante maestoso) – Variation 1 (Poco tranquillo)
14. Variation 2 (Tranquillo cantabile)
15. Variation 3 (Allegro)
16. Variation 4 (Canon: Allegro)
17. Variation 5 (Moderato sostenuto)
18. Variation 6 (Tempo di valse)
19. Variation 7 (Arabesque: Andante sostenuto)
20. Variation 8 (Alla polacca)
21. Variation 9 (Adagio)
22. Variation 10 (Fugato: Allegro moderato)
23. Variation 11 (Chorale: Allegro moderato)

Music for an EFDS Masque (1934)
24. i A Folk Dance Medley Edited by Martin Yates (2017)
25. ii Little March Suite Orchestrated by Martin Yates (2017)

26. Christmas Overture (1934)

Edited and completed by Martin Yates (2017)
WORLD PREMIERE RECORDINGS, EXCEPT [10-11, 13-23]
ROYAL SCOTTISH NATIONAL ORCHESTRA conducted by MARTIN YATES
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 12, 2018, 08:46:00 AM
Quote from: Oates on September 12, 2018, 08:05:25 AM
Blimey, new RVW CDs are coming thick and fast this week! Look at this from Dutton:


https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7351


The Blue Bird (1913)
Orchestrated by Martin Yates (2017)
1. No. 1 Introduction & First Dance (Moderato)
2. No. 2 The Clock Strikes (Più mosso)
3. No. 3 The Dance of the Hours (Andante piacevole)
4. No. 4 The Dance of the Loaves (Allegro giocoso)
5. No. 5 The Dance of the Fire (Allegro ma non troppo)
6. No. 6 The Dance of the Water (Molto moderato)
7. No. 7 The Fight between Fire and Water (Allegro con brio)
8. No. 8 General Dance (Allegro con brio)
9. No. 9 Finale (Molto adagio)

10. Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1 in E minor (1906 rev. 1914)

11. Norfolk Rhapsody No. 2 in D minor (1906)
Edited and completed by Stephen Hogger (2001)

DAVID MATTHEWS

12. Norfolk March (2016)

RALPH VAUGHAN WILLIAMS

Variations for Orchestra (1957) Orchestrated by Gordon Jacob (1959)
13. Introduction (Andante maestoso) – Variation 1 (Poco tranquillo)
14. Variation 2 (Tranquillo cantabile)
15. Variation 3 (Allegro)
16. Variation 4 (Canon: Allegro)
17. Variation 5 (Moderato sostenuto)
18. Variation 6 (Tempo di valse)
19. Variation 7 (Arabesque: Andante sostenuto)
20. Variation 8 (Alla polacca)
21. Variation 9 (Adagio)
22. Variation 10 (Fugato: Allegro moderato)
23. Variation 11 (Chorale: Allegro moderato)

Music for an EFDS Masque (1934)
24. i A Folk Dance Medley Edited by Martin Yates (2017)
25. ii Little March Suite Orchestrated by Martin Yates (2017)

26. Christmas Overture (1934)

Edited and completed by Martin Yates (2017)
WORLD PREMIERE RECORDINGS, EXCEPT [10-11, 13-23]
ROYAL SCOTTISH NATIONAL ORCHESTRA conducted by MARTIN YATES

Thanks for the info. It looks more tempting (to me) than the disc of choral music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 12, 2018, 11:14:11 AM
Quote from: Oates on September 12, 2018, 08:05:25 AM
Blimey, new RVW CDs are coming thick and fast this week! Look at this from Dutton:


https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7351


The Blue Bird (1913)
Orchestrated by Martin Yates (2017)
1. No. 1 Introduction & First Dance (Moderato)
2. No. 2 The Clock Strikes (Più mosso)
3. No. 3 The Dance of the Hours (Andante piacevole)
4. No. 4 The Dance of the Loaves (Allegro giocoso)
5. No. 5 The Dance of the Fire (Allegro ma non troppo)
6. No. 6 The Dance of the Water (Molto moderato)
7. No. 7 The Fight between Fire and Water (Allegro con brio)
8. No. 8 General Dance (Allegro con brio)
9. No. 9 Finale (Molto adagio)

10. Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1 in E minor (1906 rev. 1914)

11. Norfolk Rhapsody No. 2 in D minor (1906)
Edited and completed by Stephen Hogger (2001)

DAVID MATTHEWS

12. Norfolk March (2016)

RALPH VAUGHAN WILLIAMS

Variations for Orchestra (1957) Orchestrated by Gordon Jacob (1959)
13. Introduction (Andante maestoso) – Variation 1 (Poco tranquillo)
14. Variation 2 (Tranquillo cantabile)
15. Variation 3 (Allegro)
16. Variation 4 (Canon: Allegro)
17. Variation 5 (Moderato sostenuto)
18. Variation 6 (Tempo di valse)
19. Variation 7 (Arabesque: Andante sostenuto)
20. Variation 8 (Alla polacca)
21. Variation 9 (Adagio)
22. Variation 10 (Fugato: Allegro moderato)
23. Variation 11 (Chorale: Allegro moderato)

Music for an EFDS Masque (1934)
24. i A Folk Dance Medley Edited by Martin Yates (2017)
25. ii Little March Suite Orchestrated by Martin Yates (2017)

26. Christmas Overture (1934)

Edited and completed by Martin Yates (2017)
WORLD PREMIERE RECORDINGS, EXCEPT [10-11, 13-23]
ROYAL SCOTTISH NATIONAL ORCHESTRA conducted by MARTIN YATES
Yes, I've ordered this one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 12, 2018, 01:11:02 PM
Quote from: Oates on September 12, 2018, 08:05:25 AM
Blimey, new RVW CDs are coming thick and fast this week! Look at this from Dutton:


https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7351


The Blue Bird (1913)
Orchestrated by Martin Yates (2017)
1. No. 1 Introduction & First Dance (Moderato)
2. No. 2 The Clock Strikes (Più mosso)
3. No. 3 The Dance of the Hours (Andante piacevole)
4. No. 4 The Dance of the Loaves (Allegro giocoso)
5. No. 5 The Dance of the Fire (Allegro ma non troppo)
6. No. 6 The Dance of the Water (Molto moderato)
7. No. 7 The Fight between Fire and Water (Allegro con brio)
8. No. 8 General Dance (Allegro con brio)
9. No. 9 Finale (Molto adagio)

10. Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1 in E minor (1906 rev. 1914)

11. Norfolk Rhapsody No. 2 in D minor (1906)
Edited and completed by Stephen Hogger (2001)

DAVID MATTHEWS

12. Norfolk March (2016)

RALPH VAUGHAN WILLIAMS

Variations for Orchestra (1957) Orchestrated by Gordon Jacob (1959)
13. Introduction (Andante maestoso) – Variation 1 (Poco tranquillo)
14. Variation 2 (Tranquillo cantabile)
15. Variation 3 (Allegro)
16. Variation 4 (Canon: Allegro)
17. Variation 5 (Moderato sostenuto)
18. Variation 6 (Tempo di valse)
19. Variation 7 (Arabesque: Andante sostenuto)
20. Variation 8 (Alla polacca)
21. Variation 9 (Adagio)
22. Variation 10 (Fugato: Allegro moderato)
23. Variation 11 (Chorale: Allegro moderato)

Music for an EFDS Masque (1934)
24. i A Folk Dance Medley Edited by Martin Yates (2017)
25. ii Little March Suite Orchestrated by Martin Yates (2017)

26. Christmas Overture (1934)

Edited and completed by Martin Yates (2017)
WORLD PREMIERE RECORDINGS, EXCEPT [10-11, 13-23]
ROYAL SCOTTISH NATIONAL ORCHESTRA conducted by MARTIN YATES

Time to wave the credit card.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 12, 2018, 01:27:34 PM
Quote from: Biffo on August 12, 2018, 03:10:24 AM
the Tallis Fantasia, a work I am obsessed with.

As someone who has spent their life as a professional string player I think the Tallis Fantasia embodies the very essence of string playing.  There are MANY great works for strings alone or featuring strings but if I had to choose just one it would be the Tallis.  I love the version recorded in Gloucester Cathedral that turned up on a BBC Music Magazine disc.  Apart from being the location of the premiere and the space for which the work was written I think that Andrew Davis absolutely nails the reflective ecstasy of the work
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 12, 2018, 02:19:58 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 12, 2018, 01:27:34 PM
As someone who has spent their life as a professional string player I think the Tallis Fantasia embodies the very essence of string playing.  There are MANY great works for strings alone or featuring strings but if I had to choose just one it would be the Tallis.  I love the version recorded in Gloucester Cathedral that turned up on a BBC Music Magazine disc.  Apart from being the location of the premiere and the space for which the work was written I think that Andrew Davis absolutely nails the reflective ecstasy of the work

I think that there is a fine recording by Silvestri also recorded in a cathedral - my favourite version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 12, 2018, 10:32:56 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 12, 2018, 01:27:34 PM
As someone who has spent their life as a professional string player I think the Tallis Fantasia embodies the very essence of string playing.  There are MANY great works for strings alone or featuring strings but if I had to choose just one it would be the Tallis.  I love the version recorded in Gloucester Cathedral that turned up on a BBC Music Magazine disc.  Apart from being the location of the premiere and the space for which the work was written I think that Andrew Davis absolutely nails the reflective ecstasy of the work
It is - and can also be watched on Youtube (I hate the opening take, but love all the rest of it):
https://www.youtube.com/v/ihx5LCF1yJY
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 12, 2018, 11:39:00 PM
there's a "music recorded in cathedrals" thread here - the great Del Mar/RPO/Enigma in Guildford Cathedral for one.  I also like the Gibson/SNO/Spirit of England & Coronation Ode in Paisley Abbey and then the Tjeknavorian/RLPO/Saint-Saens 3 in Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 13, 2018, 12:45:15 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 12, 2018, 11:39:00 PM
there's a "music recorded in cathedrals" thread here - the great Del Mar/RPO/Enigma in Guildford Cathedral for one.  I also like the Gibson/SNO/Spirit of England & Coronation Ode in Paisley Abbey and then the Tjeknavorian/RLPO/Saint-Saens 3 in Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral...

Performances in cathedrals (recordings are a different matter) can be hit and miss. It depends on the cathedral, the work and, crucially, where you are sitting. A performance of Bruckner 9 (Barenboim) in St Paul's Cathedral was almost inaudible - a few brass climaxes apart - from the back of the knave. A performance of Berlioz' Grand Messe des Morts (Davis) from a seat under the dome was the experience of a lifetime. Westminster Cathedral has a much better acoustic and the Berlioz Te Deum (Wilcocks) sounded magnificent.

In the cheap seats in Exeter Cathedral, a last minute purchase, Britten's Rejoice in the Lamb was completely inaudible (some may find that a blessing) and Faure's Requiem just a distant wash of sound.

Listening to Sir Neville Marriner rehearsing the Mozart Requiem in Salisbury Cathedral was interesting, no idea what the actual performance was like.

The Silvestri/Bournemouth SO Tallis Fantasia, mentioned above, was recorded in Winchester Cathedral.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 13, 2018, 01:10:57 AM
Gloucester Cathedral works well for some pieces, not for others. I can imagine the RVW being perfect there and I was in a Faure Requiem there that went very well, and a mash-up of a B Minor Mass where the acoustic blurred the lines with all the hard work going for nothing. Rachmaninov Vespers was terrific, Gerontious, patch.

I also really like that Paisley Abbey Elgar recording.

Mike 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 13, 2018, 01:25:44 AM
I only found out recently, though it has probably always been in the small print; the Barbirolli/Sinfonia of London version of the Tallis Fantasia was recorded in the middle of the night in the Temple Church in the City of London - a magical recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 13, 2018, 01:30:37 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 13, 2018, 01:25:44 AM
I only found out recently, though it has probably always been in the small print; the Barbirolli/Sinfonia of London version of the Tallis Fantasia was recorded in the middle of the night in the Temple Church in the City of London - a magical recording.

That's the one I have, that whole disc is beautiful and moving.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 13, 2018, 02:08:49 AM
The Rachmaninov Vespers are a good call for a big acoustic.  I remember having a CD of a Bulgarian choir recorded in one of those massive rotunda with the sound rolling around the space and overlapping with each new entry - rather wonderful.  The 1st time I ever heard Mahler 8 live was in Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral in the late 1970's.  Much of it was very blurred but the opening with the big organ pedals was worth the entry alone. 

Some years later I had a summer job front of house managing some events at the City of London Festival.  This included numbering all the seat in St. Pauls for a Berlioz Requiem!  The concert I treasure from that year was in the chapel inside the Tower of London - tiny venue but so steeped in history that a concert there by candlelight was very special.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 13, 2018, 03:33:43 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 13, 2018, 02:08:49 AM
The Rachmaninov Vespers are a good call for a big acoustic.  I remember having a CD of a Bulgarian choir recorded in one of those massive rotunda with the sound rolling around the space and overlapping with each new entry - rather wonderful.  The 1st time I ever heard Mahler 8 live was in Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral in the late 1970's.  Much of it was very blurred but the opening with the big organ pedals was worth the entry alone. 

Some years later I had a summer job front of house managing some events at the City of London Festival.  This included numbering all the seat in St. Pauls for a Berlioz Requiem!  The concert I treasure from that year was in the chapel inside the Tower of London - tiny venue but so steeped in history that a concert there by candlelight was very special.

Beautiful.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 13, 2018, 03:34:01 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 12, 2018, 01:27:34 PM
As someone who has spent their life as a professional string player I think the Tallis Fantasia embodies the very essence of string playing.  There are MANY great works for strings alone or featuring strings but if I had to choose just one it would be the Tallis.  I love the version recorded in Gloucester Cathedral that turned up on a BBC Music Magazine disc.  Apart from being the location of the premiere and the space for which the work was written I think that Andrew Davis absolutely nails the reflective ecstasy of the work

Very nice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 13, 2018, 04:22:18 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 13, 2018, 02:08:49 AM

Some years later I had a summer job front of house managing some events at the City of London Festival.  This included numbering all the seat in St. Pauls for a Berlioz Requiem!  The concert I treasure from that year was in the chapel inside the Tower of London - tiny venue but so steeped in history that a concert there by candlelight was very special.

I don't think I have ever heard the Requiem in an ideal acoustic. Did it in a vast inflated tent in Milan once, better than you might assume, but not at all ideal. Mahler 8 did well in Worcester Cathedral.

The RVW Blake Songs were very atmospheric done in a small church in Gloucestershire. Little Lamb was truly haunting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mXjDQhC8TLI


The link is to a performance with Ian Partridge, an ideal voice for the piece.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 13, 2018, 10:43:42 PM
Quote from: knight66 on September 12, 2018, 01:00:56 AM
During this year's Edinburgh Festival I was in chorus for Martyn Brabbins' performance of the Sea Symphony. The concert is being broadcast on the radio Thur 13th Sept, (tomorrow), in the evening and will then be available of the BBCiPlayer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000bpf



The performance got very good reviews, but perhaps even better is the sensational performance beforehand of Musgrave's Turbulent Landscapes.

The following review gives a vivid account of the Musgrave.

https://bachtrack.com/review-vaughan-williams-brabbins-watts-bbc-scottish-symphony-orchestra-usher-hall-edinburgh-august-2018


Mike

That was broadcast on Radio 3 last night and sounded like a very fine performance. I missed the Musgrave but must look out for it after what you said. Great to know that you contributed to the performance Mike!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 14, 2018, 01:44:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 13, 2018, 10:43:42 PM
That was broadcast on Radio 3 last night and sounded like a very fine performance. I missed the Musgrave but must look out for it after what you said. Great to know that you contributed to the performance Mike!

Thanks, I have heard it now. It goes well. The sound is very recessed, so has relatively little impact, a pity. Our Mahler 8 was recorded for Swedish Radio, their microphone set up was completely different. I hope to somehow hear how it turned out.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 15, 2018, 12:53:18 AM
Quote from: knight66 on September 14, 2018, 01:44:34 PM
Thanks, I have heard it now. It goes well. The sound is very recessed, so has relatively little impact, a pity. Our Mahler 8 was recorded for Swedish Radio, their microphone set up was completely different. I hope to somehow hear how it turned out.

Mike

I listened to the performance yesterday afternoon and found the sound picture very realistic, not recessed at all; strange.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 15, 2018, 06:30:21 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 15, 2018, 12:53:18 AM
I listened to the performance yesterday afternoon and found the sound picture very realistic, not recessed at all; strange.

Perhaps it is my iPad, though a friend in the chorus wrote to me today and she thought the same. I could try again with earphones.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 15, 2018, 06:45:48 AM
Quote from: knight66 on September 15, 2018, 06:30:21 AM
Perhaps it is my iPad, though a friend in the chorus wrote to me today and she thought the same. I could try again with earphones.

Mike

I streamed the work from my PC to my hi-fi and listened to it through speakers. I thought the broadcast caught the chorus particularly well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on September 15, 2018, 08:02:07 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 15, 2018, 06:45:48 AM
I streamed the work from my PC to my hi-fi and listened to it through speakers. I thought the broadcast caught the chorus particularly well.

I used to run my tuner/amp through my HiFi, but since we moved that is not viable. When I eventually renew the system, that will be addressed. Though, that still would not help for the catch-up service. I did use an iApple, but that malfunctioned.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on September 15, 2018, 11:57:28 PM
Quote from: Oates on September 12, 2018, 08:05:25 AM
Blimey, new RVW CDs are coming thick and fast this week! Look at this from Dutton:


https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7351


The Blue Bird (1913)
Orchestrated by Martin Yates (2017)
1. No. 1 Introduction & First Dance (Moderato)
2. No. 2 The Clock Strikes (Più mosso)
3. No. 3 The Dance of the Hours (Andante piacevole)
4. No. 4 The Dance of the Loaves (Allegro giocoso)
5. No. 5 The Dance of the Fire (Allegro ma non troppo)
6. No. 6 The Dance of the Water (Molto moderato)
7. No. 7 The Fight between Fire and Water (Allegro con brio)
8. No. 8 General Dance (Allegro con brio)
9. No. 9 Finale (Molto adagio)

10. Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1 in E minor (1906 rev. 1914)

11. Norfolk Rhapsody No. 2 in D minor (1906)
Edited and completed by Stephen Hogger (2001)

DAVID MATTHEWS

12. Norfolk March (2016)

RALPH VAUGHAN WILLIAMS

Variations for Orchestra (1957) Orchestrated by Gordon Jacob (1959)
13. Introduction (Andante maestoso) – Variation 1 (Poco tranquillo)
14. Variation 2 (Tranquillo cantabile)
15. Variation 3 (Allegro)
16. Variation 4 (Canon: Allegro)
17. Variation 5 (Moderato sostenuto)
18. Variation 6 (Tempo di valse)
19. Variation 7 (Arabesque: Andante sostenuto)
20. Variation 8 (Alla polacca)
21. Variation 9 (Adagio)
22. Variation 10 (Fugato: Allegro moderato)
23. Variation 11 (Chorale: Allegro moderato)

Music for an EFDS Masque (1934)
24. i A Folk Dance Medley Edited by Martin Yates (2017)
25. ii Little March Suite Orchestrated by Martin Yates (2017)

26. Christmas Overture (1934)

Edited and completed by Martin Yates (2017)
WORLD PREMIERE RECORDINGS, EXCEPT [10-11, 13-23]
ROYAL SCOTTISH NATIONAL ORCHESTRA conducted by MARTIN YATES

A great CD - it arrived yesterday. It should be noted that David Matthews' "Norfolk March" is in fact his recreation of RVW's lost Norfolk Rhapsody No.3 - recreated, I should add, from the original conductor's notes and not any of the music scores (long gone). Hence it is credited to Matthews, who does his best to sound like pre-WWI RVW. I think it all works well as an orchestral collection - I got the new John Ireland CD as well (but not played it yet). Dutton really do manage to succeed in digging up obscurities and making odds and ends very presentable. Martin Yates has triumphed again I would say.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 17, 2018, 11:50:52 PM
I've enjoyed the new Dutton CD as well (and the John Ireland film music one). I enjoyed every work on the VW disc although I found the experience, as a whole, a bit like having a meal which consisted of several enjoyable starters rather than a main course (is that mean?) The 'Norfolk March' really by David Matthews sounded like a cross between VW and Percy Grainger. I've always liked the 'Variations for Orchestra' in whatever format and that is probably my favourite work on the CD although 'The Blue Bird' was a very nice discovery. I'm sure that I will get to appreciate this disc more as time goes on and recommend it to all admirers of the composer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 18, 2018, 04:26:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 17, 2018, 11:50:52 PM
I've enjoyed the new Dutton CD as well (and the John Ireland film music one). I enjoyed every work on the VW disc although I found the experience, as a whole, a bit like having a meal which consisted of several enjoyable starters rather than a main course (is that mean?)

I don't think that is necessarily mean.  To my eye, the disc does look fully charged with a combination of minor works and re-scorings—and after all, we do not expect at this point that there are major RVW works which have not yet seen light.  This does not at all 'invalidate' the endeavor, but only seats it in a fair context.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 18, 2018, 04:54:21 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 18, 2018, 04:26:28 AM
I don't think that is necessarily mean.  To my eye, the disc does look fully charged with a combination of minor works and re-scorings—and after all, we do not expect at this point that there are major RVW works which have not yet seen light.  This does not at all 'invalidate' the endeavor, but only seats it in a fair context.

A very fair point Karl.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 18, 2018, 04:58:47 AM
Just ordered the new Dutton disc of orchestral rarities.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 18, 2018, 05:08:50 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 18, 2018, 04:58:47 AM
Just ordered the new Dutton disc of orchestral rarities.

I'm sure that you'll enjoy it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 18, 2018, 07:25:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 18, 2018, 04:26:28 AM
I don't think that is necessarily mean.  To my eye, the disc does look fully charged with a combination of minor works and re-scorings—and after all, we do not expect at this point that there are major RVW works which have not yet seen light.  This does not at all 'invalidate' the endeavor, but only seats it in a fair context.

I must admit I agree with Karl.  I'm as big a RVW fan as the next person but he was - by his own description - a utilitarian composer very willing and able to produce works for just about any and every occasion.  But I don't think for a second that his saw them as central to his oeuvre.  That said, minor RVW is probably a lot better than many other composers!

I thought the recent Dutton disc of the complete Scott of the Antarctic film score was excellent and important/valuable for enthusiasts.  These newly created suites from operas and the like interest me far less.  Likewise I have an issue with things like the orchestrations/reconstructions of the early Bax Symphony or Moeran 2.  Brilliantly achieved both technically and as performances but *for me* just a conjectural reconstruction too far.  The "Norfolk March" on this new disc would be a case in point - but that said I really liked Colin Matthews' orchestrations of the Debussy Piano Preludes precisely because they were his own re-imaginings of the piano works not something 'in the style of.....'

And having said all that - if any of these discs appear at anything less than full price I'll snap them up - classic case of OCC - obsessive compulsive collector.....!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 18, 2018, 12:22:01 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 18, 2018, 07:25:11 AM
I must admit I agree with Karl.  I'm as big a RVW fan as the next person but he was - by his own description - a utilitarian composer very willing and able to produce works for just about any and every occasion.  But I don't think for a second that his saw them as central to his oeuvre.  That said, minor RVW is probably a lot better than many other composers!

I thought the recent Dutton disc of the complete Scott of the Antarctic film score was excellent and important/valuable for enthusiasts.  These newly created suites from operas and the like interest me far less.  Likewise I have an issue with things like the orchestrations/reconstructions of the early Bax Symphony or Moeran 2.  Brilliantly achieved both technically and as performances but *for me* just a conjectural reconstruction too far.  The "Norfolk March" on this new disc would be a case in point - but that said I really liked Colin Matthews' orchestrations of the Debussy Piano Preludes precisely because they were his own re-imaginings of the piano works not something 'in the style of.....'

And having said all that - if any of these discs appear at anything less than full price I'll snap them up - classic case of OCC - obsessive compulsive collector.....!!
I largely agree with this as well. That early Bax Symphony was very disappointing as far as I was concerned. I also really liked the complete Scott of the Antarctic CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 20, 2018, 01:06:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 18, 2018, 05:08:50 AM
I'm sure that you'll enjoy it.

It arrived today and I immediately had to give it a try. The Blue Bird made a very pleasant start to the day.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 20, 2018, 05:09:43 AM
Fleeting mention of RVW on my blog today (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2018/09/of-bells-bells-bells-bells-bells-bells.html).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 20, 2018, 09:15:09 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 20, 2018, 05:09:43 AM
Fleeting mention of RVW on my blog today (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2018/09/of-bells-bells-bells-bells-bells-bells.html).

Interesting Karl and all the best for your interesting-sounding project. The 'Five Mystical Songs' are one of his greatest work I think, especially 'Love bade me welcome' and the final one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 20, 2018, 09:24:15 AM
Thanks!

We performed the whole cycle at St Paul's here in Boston, some time ago (in the Mark Engelhardt era).

Curiously, the latest I have performed them, I was a tenor ringer in the Framingham State College Chorus for a program which included Antiphon (the final of the Five).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2018, 01:24:36 AM
Fantasia on the Old 104th (1949)

Any other admirers of the strange, oddly poetic, craggy work for piano, chorus and orchestra?
I've always liked it since discovering it attached to Boult's EMI LP of Symphony 9 in the early 1970s. I don't think that it has ever been recorded again. When I played the record to my older brother he said that it sounded like the children's record 'Sparky's Magic Piano'.

I emailed Peter Katin the pianist, expressing my admiration for the work. He sent a nice response saying that he remembered that it had not been easy to play.

Here is a link to the work if you want to sample it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RZI3qFW1htI

PS The Sunday Times gave an enthusiastic review to the new Hyperion/Brabbins recording of 'A Sea Symphony':
'...he brings us this surging account of the great Sea Symphony. The choral singing is magnificent throughout, and the BBCSO vividly capture VW's tangy, salty orchestration - especially in the scherzo...'
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 25, 2018, 03:17:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2018, 01:24:36 AM
Fantasia on the Old 104th (1949)

Any other admirers of the strange, oddly poetic, craggy work for piano, chorus and orchestra?
I've always liked it since discovering it attached to Boult's EMI LP of Symphony 9 in the early 1970s. I don't think that it has ever been recorded again. When I played the record to my older brother he said that it sounded like the children's record 'Sparky's Magic Piano'.

I emailed Peter Katin the pianist, expressing my admiration for the work. He sent a nice response saying that he remembered that it had not been easy to play.

Here is a link to the work if you want to sample it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RZI3qFW1htI

PS The Sunday Times gave an enthusiastic review to the new Hyperion/Brabbins recording of 'A Sea Symphony':
'...he brings us this surging account of the great Sea Symphony. The choral singing is magnificent throughout, and the BBCSO vividly capture VW's tangy, salty orchestration - especially in the scherzo...'

Strange that the Fantasia hasn't been recorded more often. I only have the Boult/Katin version on LP, part of a box set of RVW choral music. I haven't listened to it very often but enjoyed it when I did.

I still haven't received the Brabbins Sea Symphony - Presto seem to be sticking to the official release date.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2018, 03:53:19 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 25, 2018, 03:17:56 AM
Strange that the Fantasia hasn't been recorded more often. I only have the Boult/Katin version on LP, part of a box set of RVW choral music. I haven't listened to it very often but enjoyed it when I did.

I still haven't received the Brabbins Sea Symphony - Presto seem to be sticking to the official release date.

Thank you Biffo  :).
Glad you liked it too (unlike the commentator under the You Tube clip who said that it was his least favourite VW work).
My copy of the Brabbins 'A Sea Symphony' arrived a while back. Clearly it was a good idea to order from Hyperion direct.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 25, 2018, 04:07:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2018, 03:53:19 AM
Thank you Biffo  :).
Glad you liked it too (unlike the commentator under the You Tube clip who said that it was his least favourite VW work).
My copy of the Brabbins 'A Sea Symphony' arrived a while back. Clearly it was a good idea to order from Hyperion direct.

I don't think I have a 'least favourite'  RVW work. I suppose amongst the juvenilia, early works he discarded and the works he wrote for amateurs there are ones that I have only listened to once or very rarely but I haven't done any conscious ranking. I have never made it to the end of the Halle/Elder complete 'Wasps' but that is down to the twee narration not the music.

Last Saturday I watched 'The Loves of Joanna Godden' with music 'specially composed by Vaughan Williams'. It is on an Ealing Studios Rarities DVD. The picture looks to have been remastered but the music part of the soundtrack was often quite foggy and not typical RVW. The story is a rehash of 'Far from the Madding Crowd' - strong-willed young woman inherits a farm and is determined to run it herself, various suitors vie for her hand in marriage, lots of dead sheep. For the RVW completists only; I don't think I will ever watch it again and I have a suite of the music on a Chandos CD in vastly superior sound.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2018, 04:22:27 AM
I guess that the combination of its craggy character, and not being easy to play, has meant that that Fantasia has not ingratiated itself more with performers.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2018, 04:30:34 AM
Thank you both (Biffo and Karl) I liked the Joanna Godden music as part of the Chandos series but have no great desire to watch the film. Having said that I recently ordered a copy of 'The Story of a Flemish Farm' film and oddly enjoyed the film, despite its obvious propagandist component, and the music by VW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 25, 2018, 04:40:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2018, 04:30:34 AM
Thank you both (Biffo and Karl) I liked the Joanna Godden music as part of the Chandos series but have no great desire to watch the film. Having said that I recently ordered a copy of 'The Story of a Flemish Farm' film and oddly enjoyed the film, despite its obvious propagandist component, and the music by VW.

'49th Parallel' is another propaganda film. The Tony Palmer documentary 'O Thou Transcendent' has an excerpt from it and it is hilarious (unintentionally). Laurence Olivier plays a French-Canadian and his accent is outrageous - he sounds like John Cleese in 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail' when he taunts the English knights.

Again, I will stick to the Chandos disc from Rumon Gamba and the BBC Philharmonic
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 25, 2018, 04:53:41 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2018, 01:24:36 AM
this surging account of the great Sea Symphony. The choral singing is magnificent throughout, and the BBCSO vividly capture VW's tangy, salty orchestration

One of my favourite versions of the Sea Symphony is another with the BBC SO - not the Andrew Davis cycle but from the BBC Music Magazine with Leonard Slatkin.  Opulently recorded with a thunderous Royal Albert Hall organ - it also benefits from a very large chorus; BBC Chorus, Philharmonia Chorus and Trinity College of Music Chamber Choir.  It helps underline the epic sweep of the piece.

I can't justify another Sea Symphony no matter how good Brabbins is!

[asin]B00BHMN142[/asin]

afterthought - Slatkin's studio Sea Symphony was one of the best that cycle I thought.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on September 25, 2018, 05:07:36 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 25, 2018, 04:53:41 AM
One of my favourite versions of the Sea Symphony is another with the BBC SO - not the Andrew Davis cycle but from the BBC Music Magazine with Leonard Slatkin.  Opulently recorded with a thunderous Royal Albert Hall organ - it also benefits from a very large chorus; BBC Chorus, Philharmonia Chorus and Trinity College of Music Chamber Choir.  It helps underline the epic sweep of the piece.

I can't justify another Sea Symphony no matter how good Brabbins is!

[asin]B00BHMN142[/asin]

afterthought - Slatkin's studio Sea Symphony was one of the best that cycle I thought.

With Joan Rodgers and Simon Keenleyside. I found it a bit underwhelming, precisely on account of its all-around bigness, which brought a certain slackness to the proceedings. Also, the acoustics seemed to lack immediacy. I'll have to give it another spin when the wife is away. Better to hear that on the full audio system than on headphones, I guess  :).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2018, 05:19:35 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 25, 2018, 04:40:32 AM
'49th Parallel' is another propaganda film. The Tony Palmer documentary 'O Thou Transcendent' has an excerpt from it and it is hilarious (unintentionally). Laurence Olivier plays a French-Canadian and his accent is outrageous - he sounds like John Cleese in 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail' when he taunts the English knights.

That's realism; Canadians really do speak like that.

(Oh, I kid, I kid . . . .)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 25, 2018, 05:52:18 AM
Quote from: André on September 25, 2018, 05:07:36 AM
With Joan Rodgers and Simon Keenleyside. I found it a bit underwhelming, precisely on account of its all-around bigness, which brought a certain slackness to the proceedings. Also, the acoustics seemed to lack immediacy. I'll have to give it another spin when the wife is away. Better to hear that on the full audio system than on headphones, I guess  :).

Certain worth a revisit Andre.  To my ear the "festival" scale of this performance ties it in with the heritage of the British Choral tradition of which this is a direct off-spring.  I don't hear any slackness in fact just the reverse - a real intensity born of a live performance.  Yes, tempi are often relatively steady but that is a response to the performance space and I like the fact that the sound is not as spotlit or highlighted as some versions/recordings.  Both soloists have exactly the right sound for this type of work too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on September 25, 2018, 03:01:38 PM
Well, there it is:

(https://img.discogs.com/5b9V1FqFl3f2pxRWaEkgMnZ8-5Y=/fit-in/568x492/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8812539-1469297120-5413.jpeg.jpg)

It is indeed a spacious performance, and it calls to mind in many respects the opening line of the last movement :

O vast rondure, swimming in space,
Cover'd all over with visible power and beauty
(...)

It is spectacularly grand, orotund and obviously conceived to convey words and music through the vast expanses of the Royal Albert Hall. The sound is very fine, allowing one to distinctly hear the words in the a capella women chorus at Who justify these restless explorations? / Who speak the secret of the impassive earth?

The downside though is that the engineers could not achieve a real, solid bass. Also, there is a hiss, a faint white noise throughout the performance, which tends to rob the soft passages of any sense of immediacy. Although the back cover specifies it is DDD, it sounds more like analog to my ears.

Interpretively it is a resounding success. I'm really glad I heard it again !

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 26, 2018, 04:14:51 AM
Cool, André!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on September 26, 2018, 06:15:16 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 25, 2018, 04:40:32 AM
'49th Parallel' is another propaganda film.

It is a good bit more than that - an original and unusual war thriller. Eric Portman's performance as a Nazi (no fake sitcom Jerry accent used here) is very good indeed. And the natural splendours of Canada were not often captured on film at this time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 26, 2018, 06:25:08 AM
Quote from: André on September 25, 2018, 03:01:38 PM
Interpretively it is a resounding success. I'm really glad I heard it again !

Andre! - I'm glad you heard it again too.  I agree with all your observations (I suspect the hiss might be some residual air conditioning in the hall?) - I think it is a good example of a performance being molded to both the space and the occasion - and it happens to be a work that responds to both in this instance.  As I so often think - hurrah for the BBC!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 26, 2018, 08:17:58 AM
Quote from: Oates on September 26, 2018, 06:15:16 AM
It is a good bit more than that - an original and unusual war thriller. Eric Portman's performance as a Nazi (no fake sitcom Jerry accent used here) is very good indeed. And the natural splendours of Canada were not often captured on film at this time.

By 'another' I meant as well as 'The Story of a Flemish Farm' mentioned earlier. However, 49th Parallel was made by the Ministry of Information and its purpose, according to the director Michael Powell, was 'to scare the pants off the Americans and bring them into the war sooner'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 27, 2018, 05:36:54 PM
According to one of the teasers on Wikipedia's front page today:

English rock band XTC hired a 40-piece orchestra for their 1999 album Apple Venus Volume 1, to get a sound akin to "Vaughan Williams with a hard-on"?

???
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on October 05, 2018, 10:16:15 PM
Quote from: André on September 25, 2018, 03:01:38 PM
Well, there it is:

(https://img.discogs.com/5b9V1FqFl3f2pxRWaEkgMnZ8-5Y=/fit-in/568x492/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8812539-1469297120-5413.jpeg.jpg)

It is indeed a spacious performance, and it calls to mind in many respects the opening line of the last movement :

O vast rondure, swimming in space,
Cover'd all over with visible power and beauty
(...)

It is spectacularly grand, orotund and obviously conceived to convey words and music through the vast expanses of the Royal Albert Hall. The sound is very fine, allowing one to distinctly hear the words in the a capella women chorus at Who justify these restless explorations? / Who speak the secret of the impassive earth?

The downside though is that the engineers could not achieve a real, solid bass. Also, there is a hiss, a faint white noise throughout the performance, which tends to rob the soft passages of any sense of immediacy. Although the back cover specifies it is DDD, it sounds more like analog to my ears.

Interpretively it is a resounding success. I'm really glad I heard it again !
Many thanks for the tip! Ordered it and hope to report back.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on October 06, 2018, 12:09:03 PM
Quote from: Christo on October 05, 2018, 10:16:15 PM
Many thanks for the tip! Ordered it and hope to report back.  :)

Make sure to crank up the volume for the best listening experience. I look forward to read your impresssions !
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2018, 10:51:36 PM
Happy 146th birthday RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 12, 2018, 05:39:30 PM
I've just taken delivery of the Dutton Blue Bird disk, and it's a ripper.

The incidental music is warm and engaging, the Norfolk Rhapsodies are very well played and David Matthews realisation of the 3rd is very intelligent and I love the way it turns dark towards the end.

The rest of the pieces are vintage VW, not pieces in the forefront of his achievement, but well crafted, cheerful pieces none the less. The disk leaves a good feeling.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on October 12, 2018, 05:44:23 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 11, 2018, 10:51:36 PM
Happy 146th birthday RVW.

+1

In his commemoration, I'll listen to the Five Mystical Songs.

UPDATE: I'm ashamed to say that is the first time I listen to this work and turned out a truly inspired piece, one with a gentle expressiveness. Lovely piece. I can confirm VW was born to compose choral/vocal music of the most sublime nature.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2018, 09:43:47 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 12, 2018, 05:44:23 PM
+1

In his commemoration, I'll listen to the Five Mystical Songs.

UPDATE: I'm ashamed to say that is the first time I listen to this work and turned out a truly inspired piece, one with a gentle expressiveness. Lovely piece. I can confirm VW was born to compose choral/vocal music of the most sublime nature.

Glad you have discovered this lovely work Cesar.

When I was a teenager, one Christmas, I heard this amazing music coming out of my parent's living room; both my older brother and I dashed into the room, from opposite directions in the flat (appartment) to find out what it was. It turned out to be the last of the 'Five Mystical Songs' ('Antiphon') from an LP sampler of 'Music from King's College Cambridge' which my mother had been bought for Christmas. It may have been the first VW I ever heard.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 13, 2018, 07:59:34 AM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 12, 2018, 05:44:23 PM
+1

In his commemoration, I'll listen to the Five Mystical Songs.

UPDATE: I'm ashamed to say that is the first time I listen to this work and turned out a truly inspired piece, one with a gentle expressiveness. Lovely piece. I can confirm VW was born to compose choral/vocal music of the most sublime nature.

This set is an example of why, before I had warmed to the symphonies, I pegged RVW as a great composer, even just by his minor works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on October 13, 2018, 10:27:52 AM
Time for a dissident voice - by one who loves RVW's music more than anything else in music. For me the Five Mystical Songs represent one of the rare cases of 'minor' Vaughan Williams. Yes, came under the spell of the Antiphon at first hearing, also as a teenager, but also felt ever since that the cycle as a whole is not quintessental Vaughan Williams and somewhat 'artificial' in comparison to his real style, almost mimicking it.  :-[
(If I should give it a serious try again, which recording should be able to win me over to the right side?  8) )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 13, 2018, 10:40:36 AM
Quote from: Christo on October 13, 2018, 10:27:52 AM
Time for a dissident voice - by one who loves RVW's music more than anything else in music. For me the Five Mystical Songs represent one of the rare cases of 'minor' Vaughan Williams. Yes, came under the spell of the Antiphon at first hearing, also as a teenager, but also felt ever since that the cycle as a whole is not quintessental Vaughan Williams and somewhat 'artificial' in comparison to his real style, almost mimicking it.  :-[
(If I should give it a serious try again, which recording should be able to win me over to the right side?  8) )
Undoubtedly the one conducted by Sir David Willcocks, which, IMHO, is one of the great EMI CDs, coupled with the best ever 'Dies Natalis' by Finzi and some fine Holst. I can't believe that you don't like the 'Five Mystical Songs' - this is almost as bad as not liking the 'Serenade to Music'  :o
[asin]B000005GSD[/asin]
Seriously, this is perhaps the greatest CD in their 'British Composer' series.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 13, 2018, 11:47:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 13, 2018, 10:40:36 AMI can't believe that you don't like the 'Five Mystical Songs' - this is almost as bad as not liking the 'Serenade to Music'  :o

;D :D ;D

Off now to listen the Five Mysticals...which I haven't heard in years.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on October 13, 2018, 01:28:10 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 13, 2018, 10:40:36 AMI can't believe that you don't like the 'Five Mystical Songs' - this is almost as bad as not liking the 'Serenade to Music'  :o
Well, it's simply that the first is a proof of good taste and the second of a regrettable lack of it.  8)

Quote from: vandermolen on October 13, 2018, 10:40:36 AM
Undoubtedly the one conducted by Sir David Willcocks, which, IMHO, is one of the great EMI CDs, coupled with the best ever 'Dies Natalis' by Finzi and some fine Holst.
[asin]B000005GSD[/asin]
Seriously, this is perhaps the greatest CD in their 'British Composer' series.
Have it, of course, and like the Finzi very much.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 13, 2018, 03:04:31 PM
Quote from: Christo on October 13, 2018, 01:28:10 PM
Well, it's simply that the first is a proof of good taste and the second of a regrettable lack of it.  8)
Have it, of course, and like the Finzi very much.  ;D

Haha  :D

I don't know a better performance of the Five Mystical Songs although I also like the CD conducted by Bryden Thomson which couples it with Dona Nobis Pacem.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 15, 2018, 07:30:44 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 13, 2018, 03:04:31 PM
Haha  :D

I don't know a better performance of the Five Mystical Songs although I also like the CD conducted by Bryden Thomson which couples it with Dona Nobis Pacem.

The Willcocks performance of Five Mystical Songs is in a class of its' own. Truly a magnificent performance and I've heard, and own, several.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 15, 2018, 11:35:01 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 15, 2018, 07:30:44 PM
The Willcocks performance of Five Mystical Songs is in a class of its' own. Truly a magnificent performance and I've heard, and own, several.

I agree John and I have a number of other recordings as well. It has a unique atmosphere to it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 16, 2018, 12:31:10 AM
The Hyperion disc from Matthew Best and the Corydon Singers is one of my favourite RVW albums. It has wonderful performances of the Serenade to Music, Five Mystical Songs (with Thomas Allen in superb form) and Flos Campi. Although I have a strong emotional attachment to Boult's Serenade, for me, Best is best. I have the Willcocks Mystical Songs on LP but haven't listened to it for quite some time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2018, 01:11:44 AM
BBC Music Magazine (November issue) reviews different recordings of 'A Pastoral Symphony'. The Previn LSO version is the No.1 choice (it is mine too). They also recommend the recordings by Elder (the best in his series IMHO), Norrington (also the best in his, IMHO, very disappointing series) and Bakels (Naxos). The article is critical of Boult's EMI recording, arguing that the much earlier 1953 LPO version (Decca) 'has a fire and vibrancy that the re-make cannot equal'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on October 16, 2018, 09:01:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 16, 2018, 01:11:44 AM
BBC Music Magazine (November issue) reviews different recordings of 'A Pastoral Symphony'. The Previn LSO version is the No.1 choice (it is mine too). They also recommend the recordings by Elder (the best in his series IMHO), Norrington (also the best in his, IMHO, very disappointing series) and Bakels (Naxos). The article is critical of Boult's EMI recording, arguing that the much earlier 1953 LPO version (Decca) 'has a fire and vibrancy that the re-make cannot equal'.

I certainly agree about the Previn recording. It was the first to sell me on the work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on October 16, 2018, 10:27:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 16, 2018, 01:11:44 AM
BBC Music Magazine (November issue) reviews different recordings of 'A Pastoral Symphony'. The Previn LSO version is the No.1 choice (it is mine too). They also recommend the recordings by Elder (the best in his series IMHO), Norrington (also the best in his, IMHO, very disappointing series) and Bakels (Naxos). The article is critical of Boult's EMI recording, arguing that the much earlier 1953 LPO version (Decca) 'has a fire and vibrancy that the re-make cannot equal'.
For me it helps to confirm the quality of the new Elder recording I started listening to this Summer - and found one of the very best. I don't know the Norrington, but cherish his unconventional live recording of A Pastoral Symphony with the Concertgebouw orchestra in 2003 (an occasion I missed, to my regrets), still on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/v/dZzMMfliLUg&t=744s
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on October 24, 2018, 04:06:00 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zpoyn14PL.jpg)

The Hymnal is Vaughan Williams' response to a commission by an Anglican clergyman, rev. Percy Dearmer. It occupied the composer for two years (1904-1906). A convinced atheist, VW nevertheless valued the language of the Bible and the Prayer Book, and relished visionary religious stories such as Job or Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.

VW was quite fond of the results. The Hymnal brought him into contact with «  some of the best (and also some of the worst) music in the world and was 'worth any amount of fugues and sonatas' » . Furthermore, it was quite in line with his endeavour, started the year before the Hymnal commission, to collect English folk songs.

Apart from the hymns, the disc includes three organ works that VW was to publish separately under the title Three Organ Preludes Founded on Welsh Hymn Tunes. This recording emanates from VW's alma mater, Trinity College, Cambridge, and dates from 1996. It was originally released on the Conifer label. It's an absolutely gorgeous compendium of some of the best tunes sung in english parishes.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 25, 2018, 11:19:06 PM
Took my in laws for a day out at Westminster Abbey yesterday. Made sure to point out the grave of RVW.
(//)
The plaque to Elgar is a memorial - he is buried elsewhere. VW's memorial stone now has a small separate 'UVW' next to it where his second wife Ursula's ashes are buried. I wasn't allowed to take a photo in the Abbey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on October 26, 2018, 12:18:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 25, 2018, 11:19:06 PM
Took my in laws for a day out at Westminster Abbey yesterday. Made sure to point out the grave of RVW.
(//)
The plaque to Elgar is a memorial - he is buried elsewhere. VW's memorial stone now has a small separate 'UVW' next to it where his second wife Ursula's ashes are buried. I wasn't allowed to take a photo in the Abbey.
Great to learn, thanks! Was there back in 1986, when entering Westminster Abbey was still an uncomplicated walk; was deterred by the queues ever since (even last May  ;)).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 26, 2018, 12:29:28 AM
Quote from: Christo on October 16, 2018, 10:27:39 AM
For me it helps to confirm the quality of the new Elder recording I started listening to this Summer - and found one of the very best. I don't know the Norrington, but cherish his unconventional live recording of A Pastoral Symphony with the Concertgebouw orchestra in 2003 (an occasion I missed, to my regrets), still on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/v/dZzMMfliLUg&t=744s

I happened to listen yesterday to the Proms/Pastoral from this Summer with Brabbins.  Overall a very good concert with an excellent Parry Symphony No.5 but I found this Pastoral rather disappointing and lacking in atmosphere and the pained restraint that lies at this work's heart.  All a bit literal right down to the off-stage trumpet and soprano being too present.  Of course it might have felt very different in the hall itself.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 26, 2018, 01:31:16 AM
Quote from: Christo on October 26, 2018, 12:18:45 AM
Great to learn, thanks! Was there back in 1986, when entering Westminster Abbey was still an uncomplicated walk; was deterred by the queues ever since (even last May  ;)).
OT

Thanks. It was a birthday present for Katy's (my wife) mother and her dad and brother came as well. I remember going there for a Boult VW Centenary concert in 1972 (Symphony 5 etc - which was great to hear in those surroundings). In those days there was free entry and you could just stroll around as you liked. I even did some research there in the Library when I was at university which was a great experience for me (it was about Henry VII's chapel) and it was great to look at the original document commissioning the tomb from the reign of Henry VIII. I found it depressing having to pay £22 to get in and then have to follow a designated path around the place. Actually I didn't pay as my wife booked it all in advance. Still, my in laws had a great day out and it was worth seeing the new (2018) memorial to Stephen Hawking. Other composers in situ there are Handel and Purcess plus memorials to Walton. I think that Boult's ashes are there too and there is a plaque for Britten.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 27, 2018, 12:10:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 26, 2018, 01:31:16 AM
OT

Thanks. It was a birthday present for Katy's (my wife) mother and her dad and brother came as well. I remember going there for a Boult VW Centenary concert in 1972 (Symphony 5 etc - which was great to hear in those surroundings). In those days there was free entry and you could just stroll around as you liked. I even did some research there in the Library when I was at university which was a great experience for me (it was about Henry VII's chapel) and it was great to look at the original document commissioning the tomb from the reign of Henry VIII. I found it depressing having to pay £22 to get in and then have to follow a designated path around the place. Actually I didn't pay as my wife booked it all in advance. Still, my in laws had a great day out and it was worth seeing the new (2018) memorial to Stephen Hawking. Other composers in situ there are Handel and Purcess plus memorials to Walton. I think that Boult's ashes are there too and there is a plaque for Britten.

You have sold it! Last year on our anniversary, which falls in December, we visited St Paul's. This year on the same day Westminster Abbey it will be. Thanks.

(https://i.imgur.com/HLwkci6.jpg)

Revolution Records was a part of Barrington-Coupe's stable of small labels. Such a shame that his reputation was destroyed with the Joyce Hatto scandal. He produced some excellent recordings of English chamber music, an area neglected by larger labels at that time.



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 27, 2018, 01:24:27 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 27, 2018, 12:10:23 AM
You have sold it! Last year on our anniversary, which falls in December, we visited St Paul's. This year on the same day Westminster Abbey it will be. Thanks.

(https://i.imgur.com/HLwkci6.jpg)

Revolution Records was a part of Barrington-Coupe's stable of small labels. Such a shame that his reputation was destroyed with the Joyce Hatto scandal. He produced some excellent recordings of English chamber music, an area neglected by larger labels at that time.

I'm sure you'll have a great time there (nice cafe too!) I had two genuine recordings of Bax Symphony 4 and a Moeran disc. Oddly enough Mr Barrington-Coupe threw in a freebie CD - one of the fake Joyce Hatto Rachmaninov recordings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on October 31, 2018, 12:46:49 PM
I have never been into RVW as I find his best known works a bit boring "folk" stuff. Years ago I listened to the 1st symphony, but never had the interest to listen to the rest. Lately I have had a "British music phase" and tried this on Spotify:

[asin]B07CLPHZ4P[/asin]

I liked it more than all that Lark Ascending/Tallis Fantasia stuff. Especially 'Serenade to Music' blew me away. It's the best RWV I have ever heard. All the music on this CD is pretty good. RVW's output is large and filtering the stuff I like out of it all seems a scary task, but maybe with time and patience I can do it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 31, 2018, 01:34:17 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2018, 12:46:49 PM
I have never been into RVW as I find his best known works a bit boring "folk" stuff. Years ago I listened to the 1st symphony, but never had the interest to listen to the rest. Lately I have had a "British music phase" and tried this on Spotify:

[asin]B07CLPHZ4P[/asin]

I liked it more than all that Lark Ascending/Tallis Fantasia stuff. Especially 'Serenade to Music' blew me away. It's the best RWV I have ever heard. All the music on this CD is pretty good. RVW's output is large and filtering the stuff I like out of it all seems a scary task, but maybe with time and patience I can do it.

The Piano Concerto is a very underrated work I think and I also like Flos Campi. Yes, it's a fine CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 01, 2018, 12:29:33 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2018, 12:46:49 PM
I have never been into RVW as I find his best known works a bit boring "folk" stuff. Years ago I listened to the 1st symphony, but never had the interest to listen to the rest.
Personally, the Sea Symphony - I played a new recording in the car yesterday, even twice, but to no avail - never convinced me, though I love almost every other single piece by this prodigious composer. The First is still too much part of Elgar's world.  ;D
As for the symphonies, a better place to start is with No. 6 (also the most succesful in his lifetime). I adore Thomson's slow-but-thundering version of it, but you won't go wrong with Boult, Previn, even Davis:
https://www.youtube.com/v/fGZqLuPT5CM
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 02:21:16 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 01, 2018, 12:29:33 AM
The First is still too much part of Elgar's world.  ;D

Maybe that was the reason why I tried it, Elgarian as I am. Maybe because it's number one and a logical place to start.  ;D
I'll try thr sixth next. Serenade to Music means there is hope...

...The Finzi Dies Natalis disc arrived and I'm listening to it. 'Easter' of Five Mystical Songs is nice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 04:22:34 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 01, 2018, 12:29:33 AM
Personally, the Sea Symphony - I played a new recording in the car yesterday, even twice, but to no avail - never convinced me, though I love almost every other single piece by this prodigious composer. The First is still too much part of Elgar's world.  ;D
As for the symphonies, a better place to start is with No. 6 (also the most succesful in his lifetime). I adore Thomson's slow-but-thundering version of it, but you won't go wrong with Boult, Previn, even Davis:
https://www.youtube.com/v/fGZqLuPT5CM

For decades I didn't make much of A Sea Symphony but Haitink's recording was transformative for me. Having said that the best music is in the final movement and the work, as a whole,  is perhaps over-long. It's a pity that Vaughan Williams didn't make cuts to A Sea Symphony rather than to A London Symphony, although I realise that this is controversial. Certainly I've come to appreciate A Sea Symphony much more in the last decade.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 04:23:29 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 02:21:16 AM
Maybe that was the reason why I tried it, Elgarian as I am. Maybe because it's number one and a logical place to start.  ;D
I'll try thr sixth next. Serenade to Music means there is hope...

...The Finzi Dies Natalis disc arrived and I'm listening to it. 'Easter' of Five Mystical Songs is nice.

I'd also suggest VW's Symphony 5.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 01, 2018, 04:30:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 04:22:34 AM
Having said that the best music is in the final movement and the work, as a whole,  is perhaps over-long.

Ah the joy of differing opinions!  I've always really liked the Sea Symphony - but like the 4th movement least!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 01, 2018, 04:31:20 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 04:23:29 AM
I'd also suggest VW's Symphony 5.
The best option is to play them both, in consequent order, but the two recordings that combine them - Marriner's and Norrington's - fail to convince. This one is better:
https://www.youtube.com/v/76gAxsT4_5I&t=2058s
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 01, 2018, 04:40:06 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 04:22:34 AM
[...] Certainly I've come to appreciate A Sea Symphony much more in the last decade.

Well, then what is your hurry to suggest cuts?  Wait another five years  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 01, 2018, 04:42:18 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 01, 2018, 04:30:21 AM
Ah the joy of differing opinions!  I've always really liked the Sea Symphony - but like the 4th movement least!

Myself, I do not have a "least favorite" element of A Sea Symphony, and (possibly because my first experience of the piece was the Haitink) I have always liked the piece, too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 05:40:26 AM
Liking something is not enough, because there's more music out there I "like" than I have time or money in invest in it. It's about choosing between de Falla and Vauhan Williams to make up a concrete case. If I explore BOTH de Falla and Vaughan Williams I have to drop Rubbra. Spending time and money on a specific composer is always away from other music, not only classical. If I have learned anything in life it's that exploring music is a slow process. If I force myself to "work fast", I stop enjoying what I am doing it all becomes pointless. I need to take my time to enjoy new discoveries. Yes, I could listen to all the symphonies back to back next weekend on Spotify, but would I enjoy them? Right now I am into the Finzi/Holst/RVW disc I received today and the Howells + Elgar discs are coming next. I will also receive new electronic music by The Prodigy and Empirion + the new Mull Historical Society album.

Exploring most of Elgar's works took me about two years (1997 and 1998) and he is THE composer that really speaks to my soul. If RVW has more music I like as much as "Serenade to Music", he is worth my time. At this point I don't know.

Classical music isn't my only "hobby". I'm into electronic music and other kind of music too. I also use my time and money on movies and tv shows. Lately I have been into 70's scifi (Rollerball, Zadok, Westworld, Space 1999...) because the nostalgy value of this stuff for a 47 years old dude is huge and it's not plagued with constant shaky camera and fast editing which I hate.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I have to take it slow to enjoy it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 01, 2018, 05:41:45 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 05:40:26 AM
Liking something is not enough, because there's more music out there I "like" than I have time or money in invest in it.

Okay, okay:  I am mad keen on A Sea Symphony, thanks to Haitink.

But, I am also super mad keen on the Tallis Fantasia, which you were at pains to poo-poo  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 05:49:20 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 01, 2018, 05:41:45 AM
Okay, okay:  I am mad keen on A Sea Symphony, thanks to Haitink.

But, I am also super mad keen on the Tallis Fantasia, which you were at pains to poo-poo  8)

So you like RVW. That's good, but there's music out there you don't like which I do.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 01, 2018, 05:49:41 AM
Always true.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 07:24:37 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 01, 2018, 04:31:20 AM
The best option is to play them both, in consequent order, but the two recordings that combine them - Marriner's and Norrington's - fail to convince. This one is better:
https://www.youtube.com/v/76gAxsT4_5I&t=2058s

Which one is that? Nothing appeared on my screen.

I have an old HMV CD featuring Symphony 5 (Gibson) and Symphony 6 (Berglund) which I think is fine. I was only playing it yesterday.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 07:27:01 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 05:40:26 AM
Liking something is not enough, because there's more music out there I "like" than I have time or money in invest in it. It's about choosing between de Falla and Vauhan Williams to make up a concrete case. If I explore BOTH de Falla and Vaughan Williams I have to drop Rubbra. Spending time and money on a specific composer is always away from other music, not only classical. If I have learned anything in life it's that exploring music is a slow process. If I force myself to "work fast", I stop enjoying what I am doing it all becomes pointless. I need to take my time to enjoy new discoveries. Yes, I could listen to all the symphonies back to back next weekend on Spotify, but would I enjoy them? Right now I am into the Finzi/Holst/RVW disc I received today and the Howells + Elgar discs are coming next. I will also receive new electronic music by The Prodigy and Empirion + the new Mull Historical Society album.

Exploring most of Elgar's works took me about two years (1997 and 1998) and he is THE composer that really speaks to my soul. If RVW has more music I like as much as "Serenade to Music", he is worth my time. At this point I don't know.

Classical music isn't my only "hobby". I'm into electronic music and other kind of music too. I also use my time and money on movies and tv shows. Lately I have been into 70's scifi (Rollerball, Zadok, Westworld, Space 1999...) because the nostalgy value of this stuff for a 47 years old dude is huge and it's not plagued with constant shaky camera and fast editing which I hate.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I have to take it slow to enjoy it.

In the meantime, I hope that you enjoy the Holst/Finzi/VW CD which I think is fabulous.

I'm very much with you in regard to the 'shaky camera', fast-editing situation.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 01, 2018, 07:27:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 07:24:37 AM
Which one is that? Nothing appeared on my screen.

Previn/LSO
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 07:28:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 01, 2018, 07:27:08 AM
Previn/LSO

Thanks Karl
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 09:56:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 07:27:01 AM
In the meantime, I hope that you enjoy the Holst/Finzi/VW CD which I think is fabulous.
Well, it's certainly not a bad disc.  ;D At the moment I like Finzi most, but I need to listen to more.

Quote from: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 07:27:01 AMI'm very much with you in regard to the 'shaky camera', fast-editing situation.

I think "reality TV" gave us this nuisance. Also, artistical risk-taking is at zero level. Everything has to be "cool" for the majority.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 01, 2018, 10:02:01 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 05:40:26 AM
Liking something is not enough, because there's more music out there I "like" than I have time or money in invest in it. It's about choosing between de Falla and Vauhan Williams to make up a concrete case. If I explore BOTH de Falla and Vaughan Williams I have to drop Rubbra. Spending time and money on a specific composer is always away from other music, not only classical. If I have learned anything in life it's that exploring music is a slow process. If I force myself to "work fast", I stop enjoying what I am doing it all becomes pointless. I need to take my time to enjoy new discoveries. Yes, I could listen to all the symphonies back to back next weekend on Spotify, but would I enjoy them? Right now I am into the Finzi/Holst/RVW disc I received today and the Howells + Elgar discs are coming next. I will also receive new electronic music by The Prodigy and Empirion + the new Mull Historical Society album.

Exploring most of Elgar's works took me about two years (1997 and 1998) and he is THE composer that really speaks to my soul. If RVW has more music I like as much as "Serenade to Music", he is worth my time. At this point I don't know.

Classical music isn't my only "hobby". I'm into electronic music and other kind of music too. I also use my time and money on movies and tv shows. Lately I have been into 70's scifi (Rollerball, Zadok, Westworld, Space 1999...) because the nostalgy value of this stuff for a 47 years old dude is huge and it's not plagued with constant shaky camera and fast editing which I hate.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I have to take it slow to enjoy it.

I would only say that in the 1st you picked the most uncharacteristic of Vaughan Williams' symphonies. If you are looking for the most Elgarish, it might be the second. To reduce them to one-word epitaphs, the third is 'spiritual,' the forth harsh, the fifth spiritual or new-agey, the sixth intense, the seventh, well the seventh has a wind machine, the eighth and ninth indosyncratic.

I think they are a remarkable cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 01, 2018, 10:44:54 AM
A Sea Symphony is indeed the least characteristic;  and you are right:  they are an admirable cycle  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 10:58:27 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 01, 2018, 10:02:01 AM
I would only say that in the 1st you picked the most uncharacteristic of Vaughan Williams' symphonies. If you are looking for the most Elgarish, it might be the second. To reduce them to one-word epitaphs, the third is 'spiritual,' the forth harsh, the fifth spiritual or new-agey, the sixth intense, the seventh, well the seventh has a wind machine, the eighth and ninth indosyncratic.

I think they are a remarkable cycle.

Well, I'm looking for music I enjoy and "Elgarish" is one part of that but not all of it. Thanks for the descriptions.  ;)

Since I have this British composers phase, listening to the symphonies on Spotify could a one task to do... ...nine is so many.  :o

A couple of years ago I did listen to the Alwyn symphony cycle and liked #5 the most (purchased the Naxos recording of it).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 11:22:07 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 10:58:27 AM
Well, I'm looking for music I enjoy and "Elgarish" is one part of that but not all of it. Thanks for the descriptions.  ;)

Since I have this British composers phase, listening to the symphonies on Spotify could a one task to do... ...nine is so many.  :o

A couple of years ago I did listen to the Alwyn symphony cycle and liked #5 the most (purchased the Naxos recording of it).

I'm also an Alwyn admirer and like all the symphonies although No.2 is my favourite. As for VW I think that his most 'Elgarian' work might be 'Toward the Unknown Region'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 12:24:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 11:22:07 AM
I'm also an Alwyn admirer and like all the symphonies although No.2 is my favourite. As for VW I think that his most 'Elgarian' work might be 'Toward the Unknown Region'.

The Naxos disc has also #2 so it contains your and my favorites.  ;)

I'll try to check "Toward the Elgarian Region" out.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 01, 2018, 01:01:30 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 01, 2018, 10:02:01 AMTo reduce them to one-word epitaphs, the third is 'spiritual,' the forth harsh, the fifth spiritual or new-agey, the sixth intense, the seventh, well the seventh has a wind machine, the eighth and ninth indosyncratic.

I think they are a remarkable cycle.
Good characterization (except for 'new-agey'; it's rather old-agey). And the Antartica is 'exploring', explorative. #somethinglikethat  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JohnP on November 01, 2018, 08:54:01 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 05:40:26 AM
Liking something is not enough, because there's more music out there I "like" than I have time or money in invest in it. It's about choosing between de Falla and Vauhan Williams to make up a concrete case. If I explore BOTH de Falla and Vaughan Williams I have to drop Rubbra. Spending time and money on a specific composer is always away from other music, not only classical. If I have learned anything in life it's that exploring music is a slow process. If I force myself to "work fast", I stop enjoying what I am doing it all becomes pointless. I need to take my time to enjoy new discoveries. Yes, I could listen to all the symphonies back to back next weekend on Spotify, but would I enjoy them? Right now I am into the Finzi/Holst/RVW disc I received today and the Howells + Elgar discs are coming next. I will also receive new electronic music by The Prodigy and Empirion + the new Mull Historical Society album.

Exploring most of Elgar's works took me about two years (1997 and 1998) and he is THE composer that really speaks to my soul. If RVW has more music I like as much as "Serenade to Music", he is worth my time. At this point I don't know.

Classical music isn't my only "hobby". I'm into electronic music and other kind of music too. I also use my time and money on movies and tv shows. Lately I have been into 70's scifi (Rollerball, Zadok, Westworld, Space 1999...) because the nostalgy value of this stuff for a 47 years old dude is huge and it's not plagued with constant shaky camera and fast editing which I hate.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I have to take it slow to enjoy it.

I'd second the recommendation of Vaughan Williams 5th and would also recommend his Job: A Masque for Dancing and his choral music, perhaps the Mass in G minor.

FWIW Elgar is my favorite composer too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 11:11:32 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 01, 2018, 12:24:01 PM
The Naxos disc has also #2 so it contains your and my favorites.  ;)

I'll try to check "Toward the Elgarian Region" out.  :D

I like 'Toward the Elgarian Region'  :)

2 was Alwyn's favourite of his symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 02, 2018, 02:41:37 AM
Quote from: JohnP on November 01, 2018, 08:54:01 PM
I'd second the recommendation of Vaughan Williams 5th and would also recommend his Job: A Masque for Dancing and his choral music, perhaps the Mass in G minor.

FWIW Elgar is my favorite composer too.

Thanks for the suggestions JohnP and welcome to the forum.
Always nice to have people who appeciate Elgar around.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 02, 2018, 02:45:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 01, 2018, 11:11:32 PM
I like 'Toward the Elgarian Region'  :)

2 was Alwyn's favourite of his symphonies.

The opportunity to "rename" the work seemed so obvious.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on November 02, 2018, 03:16:52 AM
As a major Vaughan Williams enthusiast, as well as that of many other British composers of a similar genre, I have recently been listening to the music of Rodney Newton (see below) who otherwise seems very obscure:

https://toccataclassics.com/composer/rodney-newton/

"The English musician Rodney Newton (b.1945) earned his living as an orchestral timpanist and percussionist, becoming known primarily for his works for brass bands. Until now his substantial output for orchestra has remained completely unknown. This first recording of two early symphonies reveals a composer with a natural sense of melody, drama and colour, and a strong feeling for landscape, in the tradition of such earlier British symphonists as Vaughan Williams and Arnold. The tone poem Distant Nebulae, inspired by Charles Ives' The Unanswered Question, reflects the vastness of the heavens in music of understated beauty and elegance."

Fans of RVW might want to investigate further...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 02, 2018, 03:30:59 AM
Quote from: Oates on November 02, 2018, 03:16:52 AM
As a major Vaughan Williams enthusiast, as well as that of many other British composers of a similar genre, I have recently been listening to the music of Rodney Newton (see below) who otherwise seems very obscure:

https://toccataclassics.com/composer/rodney-newton/

Newton of classical music is not quite as famous as Newton of classical physics.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 02, 2018, 04:08:42 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 02, 2018, 03:30:59 AM
Newton of classical music is not quite as famous as Newton of classical physics.  ;)

You're on a roll today with these comparative analogies.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 02, 2018, 04:19:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 02, 2018, 04:08:42 AM
You're on a roll today with these comparative analogies.
:)
Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 02, 2018, 04:31:45 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 02, 2018, 04:19:27 AM
Thanks!  :)

And I saw the grave of Newton (the scientist) fairly close to that of Vaughan Williams in Westminster Abbey last week.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on November 02, 2018, 05:09:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 02, 2018, 04:31:45 AM
And I saw the grave of Newton (the scientist) fairly close to that of Vaughan Williams in Westminster Abbey last week.

Jefrey, how often do you visit that crypt ?  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 02, 2018, 09:28:09 AM
Quote from: André on November 02, 2018, 05:09:55 AM
Jefrey, how often do you visit that crypt ?  :D

Haha - every Halloween for starters.
8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 05, 2018, 03:13:42 AM
Okay, just listened to (on Spotify) symphonies 6 & 5 suggested here. I think the 5th symphony is more to my liking. Movement 3 of it is pretty good and the symphony ends beautifully. As for the sixth, I liked mvt. 2 the most. Pretty brass-heavy and strings shy work. I think it would work well in a Hitchcockian thiller/murder mystery movie.

Also listened to Job and Mass in G minor suggested here. I found Job boring/long and Mass in G minor just pushes me away from RVW.  :P The symphonies work better for me than these...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JohnP on November 05, 2018, 06:34:18 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 05, 2018, 03:13:42 AM
Okay, just listened to (on Spotify) symphonies 6 & 5 suggested here. I think the 5th symphony is more to my liking. Movement 3 of it is pretty good and the symphony ends beautifully. As for the sixth, I liked mvt. 2 the most. Pretty brass-heavy and strings shy work. I think it would work well in a Hitchcockian thiller/murder mystery movie.

Also listened to Job and Mass in G minor suggested here. I found Job boring/long and Mass in G minor just pushes me away from RVW.  :P The symphonies work better for me than these...

I guess it's on to symphonies 3 and 4 then
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 05, 2018, 08:02:21 AM
Quote from: JohnP on November 05, 2018, 06:34:18 AM
I guess it's on to symphonies 3 and 4 then
Yeah, I will go through the symphonies + many other works by RVW in hopes of discovering more music I enjoy as much as 'Serenade to Music'. Just now listening to the Piano Quintet in C minor.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 05, 2018, 08:08:45 AM
Do not forget the Violin Sonata.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 05, 2018, 08:20:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 05, 2018, 08:08:45 AM
Do not forget the Violin Sonata.
+1 love those later craggy works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 05, 2018, 08:48:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 05, 2018, 08:08:45 AM
Do not forget the Violin Sonata.

All in time. I can't listen to every note RVW composed just in a day or two.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 05, 2018, 08:48:27 AM
Nor does anyone expect you to!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 05, 2018, 11:16:10 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 05, 2018, 08:48:12 AM
All in time. I can't listen to every note RVW composed just in a day or two.  ;D

Better a leisurely exploration.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 05, 2018, 11:33:04 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 05, 2018, 11:16:10 AM
Better a leisurely exploration.

I agree, but I jumped to the 3rd symphony...  $:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 05, 2018, 10:52:08 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 05, 2018, 11:33:04 AM
I agree, but I jumped to the 3rd symphony...  $:)

A good choice as you enjoyed Symphony 5.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 06, 2018, 08:54:44 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 05, 2018, 10:52:08 PM
A good choice as you enjoyed Symphony 5.

Symphony 3 has been one of the most enjoayble ones so far. Also listened to the 4th. Seems like the least interesting so far.
RVW's symphonies haven't been "mindblowing" or even impressive so far and listening to the rest feels a burden...  :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 06, 2018, 01:21:58 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 06, 2018, 08:54:44 AM
Symphony 3 has been one of the most enjoayble ones so far. Also listened to the 4th. Seems like the least interesting so far.
RVW's symphonies haven't been "mindblowing" or even impressive so far and listening to the rest feels a burden...  :P

Maybe try No.9 before giving up completely. Sounds like you're not really on his wavelength which is fair enough; either we relate to music or we don't but I'm glad that you enjoyed A Pastoral Symphony. I shall be playing it myself during the next few days as it can be seen as VW's 'War Requiem', since it was composed not long after the First World War in which Vaughan Williams (already in his 40s) served as an ambulance driver on the Western Front in France.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 06, 2018, 02:55:10 PM
I don't understand it being any problem that RVW's music is not "mind-blowing," at least not from an Elgar enthusiast...because if Elgar's music is "mind-blowing," my name is Archibald Ponsonby.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 06, 2018, 04:34:04 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 06, 2018, 08:54:44 AM
Symphony 3 has been one of the most enjoayble ones so far. Also listened to the 4th. Seems like the least interesting so far.
RVW's symphonies haven't been "mindblowing" or even impressive so far and listening to the rest feels a burden...  :P

I agree with vandermolen but RVW is one of the great symphonists of the 20th century.  My teacher once said this very wise words: if everyone agrees something is great and you disagree, you might be wrong.  No two of his symphonies are alike yet they all have the same fingerprint.  This is a characteristic of all great symphonists.  Beethoven, Shostakovitch, Mahler, Sibelius, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Ralph Vaughan Williams, etc.  There is a real journey in hearing/experiencing their music. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 07, 2018, 01:12:38 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 06, 2018, 04:34:04 PM
I agree with vandermolen but RVW is one of the great symphonists of the 20th century.  My teacher once said this very wise words: if everyone agrees something is great and you disagree, you might be wrong.  No two of his symphonies are alike yet they all have the same fingerprint.  This is a characteristic of all great symphonists.  Beethoven, Shostakovitch, Mahler, Sibelius, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Ralph Vaughan Williams, etc.  There is a real journey in hearing/experiencing their music. 

Well said.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 02:57:12 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 06, 2018, 04:34:04 PM
My teacher once said this very wise words: if everyone agrees something is great and you disagree, you might be wrong. 

Well, then I am wrong and I can't help it. I'm doing this the wrong way again. I haven't enjoeyd this at all because of the "pressure" to be right here. I have noticed that I enjoy exploring music the most when I do it privately on my own ignoring what other people think. It seems a no brainer to get advaces online about what to try/listen to next, but it just doesn't work for me well. So, from now on I explore RVW further my own way.

Thanks everyone for the help, but unfortunately this isn't working for me. Getting anxiety from listening to music makes no sense.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 07, 2018, 03:18:36 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 02:57:12 AM
Well, then I am wrong and I can't help it.

There is no "wrong" or right in musical taste.  Ignore any pressure to agree that RVW is a great composer.  I happen to feel my life is enriched by knowing his music and I think the only "pressure" from people is a well-intentioned desire to share that enriching experience with others.  It is NOT about conforming.  There are lots of other composers received wisdom tells me I should like more than I do or dismiss more than I do.  I'm a professional violinist who doesn't particularly like the late Beethoven String Quartets - HERESY!!!  I'm off to hang my head in multiple shames!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 07, 2018, 04:05:49 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 02:57:12 AM
Thanks everyone for the help, but unfortunately this isn't working for me. Getting anxiety from listening to music makes no sense.

Dude, if folks suggesting to you, that to denigrate RVW symphonies as "not mind-blowing" is wrongheaded, triggers Anxiety in you, I respectfully submit that that is Your Trip.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 07, 2018, 04:07:28 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 07, 2018, 03:18:36 AM
I'm a professional violinist who doesn't particularly like the late Beethoven String Quartets - HERESY!!!  I'm off to hang my head in multiple shames!

We've all (or, most of us have) said, multiple times, that anyone is at liberty to like or dislike whatever music they please, for their own reasons.  That ain't the res.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 04:33:29 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 07, 2018, 03:18:36 AM
There is no "wrong" or right in musical taste.  Ignore any pressure to agree that RVW is a great composer.  I happen to feel my life is enriched by knowing his music and I think the only "pressure" from people is a well-intentioned desire to share that enriching experience with others.  It is NOT about conforming.  There are lots of other composers received wisdom tells me I should like more than I do or dismiss more than I do.  I'm a professional violinist who doesn't particularly like the late Beethoven String Quartets - HERESY!!!  I'm off to hang my head in multiple shames!

20 years ago I wasn't cynical at all and didn't understand that people are very different. So, I tried to convert the whole World to be Elgarians and I was baffled about why so few people showed interested. Even when I joined this forum 10+ years ago I tried promoted Elgar and of course failed miserably. Since I have become very cynical and I just don't care. In a way it is a relief. I have come to realize the only thing that matters is what I think myself. Doesn't matter if Karl things Elgar isn't mindblowing, because Elgar blow MY mind. Doesn't matter if Karl thinks John Williams is a hack who stole all music from ealier composers. Doesn't matter if Karl doesn't like Star Wars. It just doesn't matter because I have my taste and I live with it enjoying Star Wars (well before Disney at least), Spielberg movies, Elgar, Dittersdorf, Bruhns, The Prodigy, Kesha, Tangerine Dream, The X-Files, classic Doctor Who, Better Call Saul, Autechre, S-Express, Carly Simon, King Crimson and yes, even late Beethoven String Quartets (in fact among the Beethoven I enjoy the most!). All my life I have been confused about being different from other people, but I have slowly learned who I am and what I like and I don't need other people to tell me I am something else.

I am a weirdo, a person who doesn't really have a "place" in this World because the World doesn't know what to do with people like me. I don't fit into any "box". Maybe that's why I sometimes fall into asking help with exploring music in order to feel being part of something, but that really isn't working. Maybe I am an Elgarian, but since there are so few Elgarians online it doesn't mean much. On the Tangerine Dream board I feel myself very alien despite of Tangerine Dream fans being perhaps the nicest community on Earth, but all their welcoming and warmth do not remove the fact that a lot of music I listen to (e.g. classical or electronic dance music) isn't their thing at all. They are fanatic about Tangerine Dream and I am not. Well, I have over 100 Tangerine Dream CDs and about 20 concerts on DVD, but these guys have 500 or so! They are willing to pay $100 for a rare Tangerine Dream CD (their soundtracks are rare as hell). I am not and that's why I have so few soundtracks by them.

I have been exploring contemporary composers on my own during the past few years and it has worked for me. It helps that there really isn't "consensus" yet about who are the greatest contemporary composers and what are the greatest works, so I can explore Sergio Rendine's and David Maslanka's music without pressure of enjoying this or that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 07, 2018, 06:19:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 07, 2018, 04:05:49 AM
Dude, if folks suggesting to you, that to denigrate RVW symphonies as "not mind-blowing" is wrongheaded, triggers Anxiety in you, I respectfully submit that that is Your Trip.

"Not mind-blowing" is by definition a personal reaction and I would not have characterized it as "denigrating." Your comeback, (mentally imagine schoolyard voice) "oh yeah, well Elgar ain't mind-blowing neither, so there!" struck me as unnecessarily argumentative, from behind my screen anyway.

To 71 dB, regarding Vaughan Williams. There is genius in the music, at least in some of it. You may or may not find it resonates with you. That's the nature of art. But enough people love it enough that you probably owe it to yourself to hear it, once at least. I'd suggest you don't bug out before you've heard the second.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 07, 2018, 06:22:37 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 04:33:29 AM
20 years ago I wasn't cynical at all and didn't understand that people are very different. So, I tried to convert the whole World to be Elgarians and I was baffled about why so few people showed interested. Even when I joined this forum 10+ years ago I tried promoted Elgar and of course failed miserably. Since I have become very cynical and I just don't care. In a way it is a relief. I have come to realize the only thing that matters is what I think myself. Doesn't matter if Karl things Elgar isn't mindblowing, because Elgar blow MY mind. Doesn't matter if Karl thinks John Williams is a hack who stole all music from ealier composers. Doesn't matter if Karl doesn't like Star Wars. It just doesn't matter because I have my taste and I live with it enjoying Star Wars (well before Disney at least), Spielberg movies, Elgar, Dittersdorf, Bruhns, The Prodigy, Kesha, Tangerine Dream, The X-Files, classic Doctor Who, Better Call Saul, Autechre, S-Express, Carly Simon, King Crimson and yes, even late Beethoven String Quartets (in fact among the Beethoven I enjoy the most!). All my life I have been confused about being different from other people, but I have slowly learned who I am and what I like and I don't need other people to tell me I am something else.

I am a weirdo, a person who doesn't really have a "place" in this World because the World doesn't know what to do with people like me. I don't fit into any "box". Maybe that's why I sometimes fall into asking help with exploring music in order to feel being part of something, but that really isn't working. Maybe I am an Elgarian, but since there are so few Elgarians online it doesn't mean much. On the Tangerine Dream board I feel myself very alien despite of Tangerine Dream fans being perhaps the nicest community on Earth, but all their welcoming and warmth do not remove the fact that a lot of music I listen to (e.g. classical or electronic dance music) isn't their thing at all. They are fanatic about Tangerine Dream and I am not. Well, I have over 100 Tangerine Dream CDs and about 20 concerts on DVD, but these guys have 500 or so! They are willing to pay $100 for a rare Tangerine Dream CD (their soundtracks are rare as hell). I am not and that's why I have so few soundtracks by them.

I have been exploring contemporary composers on my own during the past few years and it has worked for me. It helps that there really isn't "consensus" yet about who are the greatest contemporary composers and what are the greatest works, so I can explore Sergio Rendine's and David Maslanka's music without pressure of enjoying this or that.

Don't take this all so personally.  This is just a place where people have lots of opinions and sometimes agree other times disagree.  Nothing wrong with that.  I happen to agree with a lot of what you said and there isn't really much point of saying something someone else said.  I usually agree with Karl except for when he's wrong about Williams.   :P It's fine for him to feel that way and you (or me) to disagree.  No reason to take it so personally but on forums, if you have an opinion, others do have the right to disagree and that shouldn't cause anyone any grief.  Think of this place as a bunch of mates at the local pub.  Conversations are friendly but opinions will not always agree and we can still share a pint while arguing our opinions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 07, 2018, 06:37:37 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 07, 2018, 06:22:37 AM
[...] I usually agree with Karl except for when he's wrong about Williams.   :P

8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 07, 2018, 06:38:08 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 07, 2018, 06:19:30 AM
"Not mind-blowing" is by definition a personal reaction and I would not have characterized it as "denigrating." Your comeback, (mentally imagine schoolyard voice) "oh yeah, well Elgar ain't mind-blowing neither, so there!" struck me as unnecessarily argumentative, from behind my screen anyway.

Check.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 07, 2018, 06:42:18 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 07, 2018, 03:18:36 AM
There is no "wrong" or right in musical taste.  Ignore any pressure to agree that RVW is a great composer.

OTOH, it is not at all unreasonable to expect admirers of RVW to speak up on his behalf, in the RVW thread.

(Oh, God—the pressure, the pressure!)   :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on November 07, 2018, 06:52:53 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 07, 2018, 06:42:18 AM
OTOH, it is not at all unreasonable to expect admirers of RVW to speak up on his behalf, in the RVW thread.

(Oh, God—the pressure, the pressure!)   :P

It goes without saying, but saying it is not a bad thing anyway  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 07, 2018, 07:06:58 AM
If it makes everyone feel better, I'll go on the Havergal Brian thread saying HB isn't mind blowing and he sounds like third rate RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on November 07, 2018, 08:13:30 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 07, 2018, 07:06:58 AM
If it makes everyone feel better, I'll go on the Havergal Brian thread saying HB isn't mind blowing and he sounds like third rate RVW.
Go on,I dare you! :P ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 07, 2018, 08:23:54 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 07, 2018, 08:13:30 AM
Go on,I dare you! :P ;D

It blows my mind that people listen to that stuff!   :laugh:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 09:29:11 AM
Just in case I bring this up. I'm not saying RVW isn't a great composer. I don't know who is and who isn't, because I haven't studied music. I'm too stupid to understand music theory. All I know is what I like/dislike. "Serenade to Music" is a RVW work I really like and it insprired me to explore the composer more.

Quote from: relm1 on November 07, 2018, 06:22:37 AM
I usually agree with Karl except for when he's wrong about Williams.   :P

Hah!  ;D

Often I agree with Karl too, but I think he has a tendency for "unnecessory negativity".  :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 07, 2018, 09:37:24 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 09:29:11 AM
Often I agree with Karl too, but I think he has a tendency for "unnecessory negativity".  :P

NO WAY!!!

(joking, there.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 07, 2018, 09:56:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 07, 2018, 08:13:30 AM
Go on, I dare you! :P ;D
Indeed. Brianites tend to be almost as sinewy and muscular as the composer's music.  :-X
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 07, 2018, 09:59:50 AM
I greatly enjoyed Martin Brabbins' Edinburgh performance of the Sea Symphony and was looking forward to his recording. I listened to it on Monday afternoon but failed to get to the end. It is very exciting but I found the chorus too loud at times and sometimes even raucous. Also I thought the baritone soloist lightweight.

I wasn't feeling too well at the time so will have to give it another chance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 10:05:05 AM
Quote from: Biffo on November 07, 2018, 09:59:50 AM
I greatly enjoyed Martin Brabbins' Edinburgh performance of the Sea Symphony and was looking to his recording. I listened to it on Monday afternoon but failed to get to the end. It is very exciting but I found the chorus too loud at times and sometimes even raucous. Also I thought the baritone soloist lightweight.

I wasn't feeling too well at the time so will have to give it another chance.

Seasick or sick of the Sea Symphony?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 07, 2018, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: Biffo on November 07, 2018, 09:59:50 AM
I greatly enjoyed Martin Brabbins' Edinburgh performance of the Sea Symphony and was looking to his recording. I listened to it on Monday afternoon but failed to get to the end. It is very exciting but I found the chorus too loud at times and sometimes even raucous. Also I thought the baritone soloist lightweight.

They overweighted the chorus in the recording?  It's tough, expecting a recording to recreate one's experience in the space.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 07, 2018, 11:59:20 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 10:05:05 AM
Seasick or sick of the Sea Symphony?

Neither,  a chest infection.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 07, 2018, 12:19:38 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 02:57:12 AM
Well, then I am wrong and I can't help it. I'm doing this the wrong way again. I haven't enjoeyd this at all because of the "pressure" to be right here. I have noticed that I enjoy exploring music the most when I do it privately on my own ignoring what other people think. It seems a no brainer to get advaces online about what to try/listen to next, but it just doesn't work for me well. So, from now on I explore RVW further my own way.

Thanks everyone for the help, but unfortunately this isn't working for me. Getting anxiety from listening to music makes no sense.

I'm very sorry that these recommendations are causing you anxiety - that is not the aim at all! Any recommendations from me are on the off chance that someone will enjoy the music and I get pleasure out of introducing members and others to music that they might not otherwise come across but the emphasis should be on pleasure not pressure.

Still, good to fine another Ke$ha fan. I greatly admire her song 'Tik-Tok' ( much to the amusement of my former students).
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 07, 2018, 12:22:09 PM
Quote from: Biffo on November 07, 2018, 11:59:20 AM
Neither,  a chest infection.

A lot of that around here. I'm just recovering from one myself and hope you get better soon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 12:46:16 PM
Quote from: Biffo on November 07, 2018, 11:59:20 AM
Neither,  a chest infection.
Oh crap. Get better soon.  :-\
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 01:08:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 07, 2018, 12:19:38 PM
I'm very sorry that these recommendations are causing you anxiety - that is not the aim at all! Any recommendations from me are on the off chance that someone will enjoy the music and I get pleasure out of introducing members and others to music that they might not otherwise come across but the emphasis should be on pleasure not pressure.

Still, good to fine another Ke$ha fan. I greatly admire her song 'Tik-Tok' ( much to the amusement of my former students).
:)

Recommendations themselves don't cause anxiety, but what I do with them, so it's my own fault. I should always take the time and try to enjoy the process. So, that's why I'll take now a break of RVW and continue when I feel I am ready.

Kesha Rose Sebert is an amazing human being and widely misunderstood as a bimbo who doesn't know how to sing. Autotune in her music is used for cool sound effect. She is a very good singer, very talented. Writes her own music. High IQ. She fights for human rights and animal rights and has been awarded for those efforts. Cool to hear you are a fan.  :)

https://www.youtube.com/v/3SLy0K7REAA
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 07, 2018, 01:26:31 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 01:08:06 PM
Recommendations themselves don't cause anxiety, but what I do with them, so it's my own fault. I should always take the time and try to enjoy the process. So, that's why I'll take now a break of RVW and continue when I feel I am ready.

Kesha Rose Sebert is an amazing human being and widely misunderstood as a bimbo who doesn't know how to sing. Autotune in her music is used for cool sound effect. She is a very good singer, very talented. Writes her own music. High IQ. She fights for human rights and animal rights and has been awarded for those efforts. Cool to hear you are a fan.  :)

https://www.youtube.com/v/3SLy0K7REAA

OT

Nice video - a different side of Kesha.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: 71 dB on November 07, 2018, 02:15:38 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 07, 2018, 01:26:31 PM
OT

Nice video - a different side of Kesha.
:)

OT: Glad you liked. She has got many sides.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 07, 2018, 04:40:12 PM
I listened to this recording of London Symphony by Owain Arwel Hughes/Philharmonia Orchestra the last few days following in the Dover score and find it excellent.  The performance level and interpretation is superb. 

(https://img.discogs.com/XeD9P69ffEOZJYOriwKMHQuHjtQ=/fit-in/600x594/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9205067-1521126678-6742.jpeg.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-2-London/dp/B000001HP7

I do love the early versions as well.  Part of what I adore about RVW is how he melds French (Ravel) with German (Wagner/Mahler) in a very English way.  He is extremely unique and I haven't heard anything from him I dislike. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 07, 2018, 09:15:40 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 07, 2018, 04:40:12 PM
I listened to this recording of London Symphony by Owain Arwel Hughes/Philharmonia Orchestra the last few days following in the Dover score and find it excellent.  The performance level and interpretation is superb. 

(https://img.discogs.com/XeD9P69ffEOZJYOriwKMHQuHjtQ=/fit-in/600x594/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9205067-1521126678-6742.jpeg.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-2-London/dp/B000001HP7

I do love the early versions as well.  Part of what I adore about RVW is how he melds French (Ravel) with German (Wagner/Mahler) in a very English way.  He is extremely unique and I haven't heard anything from him I dislike.
I'm interested that you like that recording as I seem to recall it was not well reviewed. I must listen to it again although I can't listen to the 1936 version any more without being acutely aware of the 'missing' section just before the epilogue. The thing about Vaughan Williams is that he has an instantly recognisable style. Compared to Elgar his music is more objective and less personal I think. I do not consider this a weakness, just an observation. I think that Elgar was a very great composer as well but it is really the three symphonies which appeal most to me and I never listen to the oratorios or chamber music, whereas I like the vocal and choral works and chamber works by Vaughan Williams.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 08, 2018, 01:29:48 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 07, 2018, 10:26:47 AM
They overweighted the chorus in the recording?  It's tough, expecting a recording to recreate one's experience in the space.

Perhaps I should have made it clearer, I heard the Edinburgh performance on the radio though it would have been nice to be there. In the CD recording (with different forces) there are times when it sounds like the chorus suddenly jump out and shout at you. I have various recordings that sound better balanced, Halle Elder is still my favourite, marginally ahead of Spano/Atlanta. In the next few days I will give it another try. I should also have mentioned that the soprano soloist is excellent.

Many thanks for all the kind thoughts. On Tuesday I went to my local medical centre and the clinical nurse gave me antibiotics, steroids and a flu jab so I should be sorted for the rest of the winter.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 08, 2018, 05:54:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 07, 2018, 09:15:40 PM
I'm interested that you like that recording as I seem to recall it was not well reviewed. I must listen to it again although I can't listen to the 1936 version any more without being acutely aware of the 'missing' section just before the epilogue. The thing about Vaughan Williams is that he has an instantly recognisable style. Compared to Elgar his music is more objective and less personal I think. I do not consider this a weakness, just an observation. I think that Elgar was a very great composer as well but it is really the three symphonies which appeal most to me and I never listen to the oratorios or chamber music, whereas I like the vocal and choral works and chamber works by Vaughan Williams.

It could be that reviewers find this a bit on the slow side.  It is one of the slower recordings of the 1920 version which is the most concise.  So this one sort of spreads out a concise version.  But I like it because it is very evocative and has beautiful sonorities in the brass.  It's just gorgeous.  One very odd thing about this recording though, it is on two cd's and the second cd is very small!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 08, 2018, 06:17:06 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 08, 2018, 05:54:01 AM
It could be that reviewers find this a bit on the slow side.  It is one of the slower recordings of the 1920 version which is the most concise.  So this one sort of spreads out a concise version.  But I like it because it is very evocative and has beautiful sonorities in the brass.  It's just gorgeous.  One very odd thing about this recording though, it is on two cd's and the second cd is very small!

How weird! I think though the VW is of the 1936 version as there were no recordings of the 1920 version (apart from Goossens's old Cincinnati verson) until quite recently.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 08, 2018, 04:41:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 08, 2018, 06:17:06 AM
How weird! I think though the VW is of the 1936 version as there were no recordings of the 1920 version (apart from Goossens's old Cincinnati verson) until quite recently.

Ok, I didn't realize there were that many versions.  So whatever was the "official" version is what this is.   Yes, see for yourself - this is the first and only time I've seen this small cd:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91zruDkGfNL._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 08, 2018, 11:19:17 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 08, 2018, 04:41:34 PM
Ok, I didn't realize there were that many versions.  So whatever was the "official" version is what this is.   Yes, see for yourself - this is the first and only time I've seen this small cd:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91zruDkGfNL._SL1500_.jpg)

How weird! Never seen anything like that before.

As to A London Symphony there is a 1913, 1920 and 1936 version. Personally I wish that VW had kept the 1920 (or 1913 for that matter) version as the final version, especially as, in 1936, he excised the most moving part of the symphony just before the end - although others may disagree and there has been much debate about this.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on November 18, 2018, 10:02:06 AM
For those who can access BBC I-player, a documentary that would be of interest about RvW and Holst :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bshhss/holst-and-vaughan-williams-making-music-english (https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bshhss/holst-and-vaughan-williams-making-music-english)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 19, 2018, 11:45:22 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on November 18, 2018, 10:02:06 AM
For those who can access BBC I-player, a documentary that would be of interest about RvW and Holst :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bshhss/holst-and-vaughan-williams-making-music-english (https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bshhss/holst-and-vaughan-williams-making-music-english)

I watched it last night. It was really good tracing their friendship. It was a good example, I thought, of 'less is more' because in limiting its focus it went rather deeper than some of the earlier TV documentaries on both Holst and Vaughan Williams, which were not, in my view, entirely satisfactory ('O Transcendent's' totally inappropriate juxtaposition in of Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphonywith images of child victims of famine for example). The Holst/Vaughan Williams documentary just shown only focused on a comparatively small number of works such as 'A Pastoral Symphony', 'The Planets', 'Tallis Fantasia' and 'Egdon Heath' plus some other works, but I felt that it went deeper and there was some great shots of locations associated with their friendship, such as the Malvern Hills, where they went walking together, St Paul's Girl's School, where Holst composed most of the Planets, Leith Hill Place where VW grew up and the French location where VW was inspired during his work as an ambulance driver in the First World War on the Western Front. The programme convincingly, I felt, suggested that his  war time experiences on the Somme was transmuted into A Pastoral Symphony as his 'War Requiem'. It makes me want to listen to the work again. Do watch it if you are able to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 28, 2018, 04:09:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 11, 2013, 07:36:17 AM
Thanks, Jens. I have heard the Daniel performance of the A Sea Symphony is disappointing. If you've heard this performance, what do you make of it? Bakels is a very good conductor. I own a set of his Rimsky-Korsakov on BIS that is quite impressive. Decisions, decisions....

It's been a couple years, but I remembered, when I recently listened to the Daniel Sea Symphony, that there was something in this thread. Yes, that's not good. But that must be the only dud in that cycle.

Speaking of RVW-Symphony cycles, how many are there?

I can find these:

Boult x 2
Previn
Slatkin
Haitink
Handley
Davis
Thomson
Davis
Manze (ongoing)
Brabbins (ongoing)
Elder (finished by now?)
Hickox (incomplete, lacking 7 & 9)
Rozhdestvensky
Bakels/Daniel

We could also continue playing this game:

Quote from: jlaurson on March 08, 2013, 05:39:34 AM
Votes collected:




































Sy/InterpreterBoult IBoult IIHaitinkHandleyHickoxPrevinSlatkinA.DavisThomsonOther
No.1 A Sea Symphony I0III000I000
No.2 London............0I00III '13I '36001Goosens '20, Barbi, HandleyLPO
No.3 Pastoral...........I0II0III0000
No.4........................I000000I0Berglund x2, Bernie
No.5........................00000I000Barbi x2, Menuhin, Previn-Tel
No.6........................II0I00001/20Berglund x1.5
No.7 Antarctica........I0II001/20000
No.8........................001/2I 1/20I000Barbi
No.9........................00II0000I 1/2Stokes, Bakels
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 28, 2018, 08:24:12 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 19, 2018, 11:45:22 PM
I watched it last night. It was really good tracing their friendship. It was a good example, I thought, of 'less is more' because in limiting its focus it went rather deeper than some of the earlier TV documentaries on both Holst and Vaughan Williams, which were not, in my view, entirely satisfactory ('O Transcendent's' totally inappropriate juxtaposition in of Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphonywith images of child victims of famine for example). The Holst/Vaughan Williams documentary just shown only focused on a comparatively small number of works such as 'A Pastoral Symphony', 'The Planets', 'Tallis Fantasia' and 'Egdon Heath' plus some other works, but I felt that it went deeper and there was some great shots of locations associated with their friendship, such as the Malvern Hills, where they went walking together, St Paul's Girl's School, where Holst composed most of the Planets, Leith Hill Place where VW grew up and the French location where VW was inspired during his work as an ambulance driver in the First World War on the Western Front. The programme convincingly, I felt, suggested that his  war time experiences on the Somme was transmuted into A Pastoral Symphony as his 'War Requiem'. It makes me want to listen to the work again. Do watch it if you are able to.

I have just watched it and enjoyed the programme immensely. Some great shots of the English countryside and like you I will be listening at the earliest opportunity "Egdon Heath" and RVW 3rd Symphony. I knew they were pals but didn't realise they were so close. The end of the film is quite sad. "Mars" features at length and the subject of that movement and the connection with war was mentioned as it nearly always is. Imogen Holst has some interesting things to say about that -
https://youtu.be/F7i4GTmgjcE

Edit: The BBC film also made the point that "Mars" was written before the start of WW1.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 29, 2018, 11:20:32 PM
Quote from: Irons on November 28, 2018, 08:24:12 AM
I have just watched it and enjoyed the programme immensely. Some great shots of the English countryside and like you I will be listening at the earliest opportunity "Egdon Heath" and RVW 3rd Symphony. I knew they were pals but didn't realise they were so close. The end of the film is quite sad. "Mars" features at length and the subject of that movement and the connection with war was mentioned as it nearly always is. Imogen Holst has some interesting things to say about that -
https://youtu.be/F7i4GTmgjcE

Edit: The BBC film also made the point that "Mars" was written before the start of WW1.
Glad you enjoyed it and I agree that the end was sad. I think that VW felt lost without his greatest musical friend. I'm also interested in the idea (not expressed in the film) that the 6th Symphony is a final tribute to Holst. The opening movement, in a way, echoes 'Mars' and the epilogue drifts away into nothingness as does the end of 'Neptune'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 30, 2018, 05:22:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 29, 2018, 11:20:32 PM
Glad you enjoyed it and I agree that the end was sad. I think that VW felt lost without his greatest musical friend. I'm also interested in the idea (not expressed in the film) that the 6th Symphony is a final tribute to Holst. The opening movement, in a way, echoes 'Mars' and the epilogue drifts away into nothingness as does the end of 'Neptune'.
Absolutely. The Sixth is his homage to Holst, there can be no doubt about it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 30, 2018, 07:21:56 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 30, 2018, 05:22:33 AM
Absolutely. The Sixth is his homage to Holst, there can be no doubt about it.

I was intrigued by this and did some digging. The 6th is dedicated to Michael Mullinar (not heard of him) but apparently this is little known. http://vaughanwilliams.uk/letter/vwl3683
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 30, 2018, 07:48:08 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 30, 2018, 07:21:56 AM
I was intrigued by this and did some digging. The 6th is dedicated to Michael Mullinar (not heard of him) but apparently this is little known. http://vaughanwilliams.uk/letter/vwl3683

The published score is clearly dedicated to Michael Mullinar - both the 1st version and the (quickly published) revision.  So in that sense it is well known - who Mullinar was is perhaps less well known.  He was a composer who also arr. Greensleeves for Violin & Piano and the Oboe Conc. piano reduction for RVW.  Mullinar also made an arrangement for solo piano of this Symphony and gave the first play-through of the work at RVW's home.  Alan Rowlands edited this solo piano version when it was recorded by Albion for 2 pianos.  Mullinar was also the copyist of the 5th & 6th Symphonies.  Thomas Pitfield actually described Mullinar as RVW's amanuensis at this time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on December 01, 2018, 02:06:12 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 30, 2018, 07:48:08 AM
The published score is clearly dedicated to Michael Mullinar - both the 1st version and the (quickly published) revision.  So in that sense it is well known - who Mullinar was is perhaps less well known.  He was a composer who also arr. Greensleeves for Violin & Piano and the Oboe Conc. piano reduction for RVW.  Mullinar also made an arrangement for solo piano of this Symphony and gave the first play-through of the work at RVW's home.  Alan Rowlands edited this solo piano version when it was recorded by Albion for 2 pianos.  Mullinar was also the copyist of the 5th & 6th Symphonies.  Thomas Pitfield actually described Mullinar as RVW's amanuensis at this time.

Thanks for information. Alan Rowlands, I do know through his Lyrita set of Ireland's piano pieces.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 11, 2018, 03:49:06 PM
Almost done!  (for now)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S4Q0Wst0nic/XA_HquEYihI/AAAAAAAAKqI/CfXy9Gb3zyUzVrO6pNkMBrVHi7AkbB4HgCLcBGAs/s1600/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams_ionarts_Discography_Symphony-Cycle-Survey_Classical-Critic_Jens-f-Laurson_600.jpg)
Latest #Discography / #SymphonySurvey on @ionarts:
A Survey of Vaughan-Williams Symphony Cycles

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-survey-of-vaughan-williams-symphony.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-survey-of-vaughan-williams-symphony.html)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 11, 2018, 10:37:42 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 11, 2018, 03:49:06 PM
Almost done!  (for now)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S4Q0Wst0nic/XA_HquEYihI/AAAAAAAAKqI/CfXy9Gb3zyUzVrO6pNkMBrVHi7AkbB4HgCLcBGAs/s1600/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams_ionarts_Discography_Symphony-Cycle-Survey_Classical-Critic_Jens-f-Laurson_600.jpg)
Latest #Discography / #SymphonySurvey on @ionarts:
A Survey of Vaughan-Williams Symphony Cycles

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-survey-of-vaughan-williams-symphony.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-survey-of-vaughan-williams-symphony.html)
Great service, very helpful - and indeed underscoring my admiration for the Thompson and also Handley.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2018, 12:43:36 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 11, 2018, 10:37:42 PM
Great service, very helpful - and indeed underscoring my admiration for the Thompson and also Handley.  :D
+1 although I'm less keen on the Handley cycle, other than No.9, and prefer his earlier recording with the LPO of 'A London Symphony'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on December 12, 2018, 05:41:11 AM
Thanks for that labour of love (? ;)), Jens !

My introduction to the symphonies in LP times was through the recordings of 2 and 5 from Previn, 3 and 4 from Boult II and Haitink's 1 and 7. Then the cd era ushered in and I lost track of the events (purchases). Apart from a few singles, I have the cycles from Boult (I and II), Handley, Davis, Slatkin. I can't figure which one I like best. Slatkin maybe ?

Buying yet another cycle would be foolish, I think. And yet, if the Thomson would be repackaged with the original couplings in a space-saving box, I would give it serious consideration.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 12, 2018, 12:59:28 PM
Quote from: Christo on December 11, 2018, 10:37:42 PM
Great service, very helpful - and indeed underscoring my admiration for the Thompson and also Handley.  :D

Thanks much -- given your avatar, it means doubly much to me. (I may have, since your comment, updated it with the Mark Eldar cycle, since that's only two symphonies from being completed.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 12, 2018, 01:07:30 PM
Quote from: André on December 12, 2018, 05:41:11 AM
Thanks for that labour of love (? ;)), Jens !

My introduction to the symphonies in LP times was through the recordings of 2 and 5 from Previn, 3 and 4 from Boult II and Haitink's 1 and 7. Then the cd era ushered in and I lost track of the events (purchases). Apart from a few singles, I have the cycles from Boult (I and II), Handley, Davis, Slatkin. I can't figure which one I like best. Slatkin maybe ?

Buying yet another cycle would be foolish, I think. And yet, if the Thomson would be repackaged with the original couplings in a space-saving box, I would give it serious consideration.

Thanks for the kind words. Well, 'labor of good intent', if you will... I've not yet fallen in love with RVW, but I'm trying every time. I must say that I'm probably closer to the Arnold Symphonies. Still, he's a great composer and deserves it plenty. I have Boult I, II (long-time-no-listen; my first cycle), Bakels/Daniels, Haitink, Handley, Previn, and Thomson (with Slatkin on the way) and a bunch of individuals and you can clearly see that I am trying to patch with quantity what I haven't been able to fix with insight.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 15, 2018, 12:22:29 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 12, 2018, 05:44:23 PM
In his commemoration, I'll listen to the Five Mystical Songs.

UPDATE: I'm ashamed to say that is the first time I listen to this work and turned out a truly inspired piece, one with a gentle expressiveness. Lovely piece. I can confirm VW was born to compose choral/vocal music of the most sublime nature.

This work was a fantastic recent discovery of mine as well - not sure why I never listened to it before! In particular, the first song, Easter, has a radiant ecstasy that is quite captivating. I'm constantly making great discoveries in the field of English vocal music - what a gold mine!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 15, 2018, 12:38:27 PM
Quote from: kyjo on December 15, 2018, 12:22:29 PM
This work was a fantastic recent discovery of mine as well - not sure why I never listened to it before! In particular, the first song, Easter, has a radiant ecstasy that is quite captivating. I'm constantly making great discoveries in the field of English vocal music - what a gold mine!

I'm jumping on that bandwaggon. Meanwhile my copy of the Andrew Davis Sixth has arrived (couldn't get myself to get the whole cycle) and my cycle of Slatkin's RVW, finally. So I'll immerse now!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2018, 10:51:57 PM
Quote from: kyjo on December 15, 2018, 12:22:29 PM
This work was a fantastic recent discovery of mine as well - not sure why I never listened to it before! In particular, the first song, Easter, has a radiant ecstasy that is quite captivating. I'm constantly making great discoveries in the field of English vocal music - what a gold mine!

Yes, a wonderful work Kyle and one of my earliest VW discoveries thanks to my mother having a King's College sampler which featured 'Antiphon'. The Willcocks version is the best I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2018, 10:53:40 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 15, 2018, 12:38:27 PM
I'm jumping on that bandwaggon. Meanwhile my copy of the Andrew Davis Sixth has arrived (couldn't get myself to get the whole cycle) and my cycle of Slatkin's RVW, finally. So I'll immerse now!

If you only have one of the Andrew Davis original cycle that is the one to have. As for Skatkin I have enjoyed his VW recordings more than many others, especially nos 8 and 9.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 16, 2018, 11:30:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 16, 2018, 10:51:57 PM
Yes, a wonderful work Kyle and one of my earliest VW discoveries thanks to my mother having a King's College sampler which featured 'Antiphon'. The Willcocks version is the best I think.

Vandermolen - because of the extensive EMI catalogue of British music for me John Shirley-Quirk's voice is very much the SOUND I associate with 20th Century English Choral music.  As the 'go-to' bass/baritone he appears on so many of the great recordings.  So whether its the Previn/LSO Belshazzar or this Mystical Songs or the Meredith Davis/Village Romeo, I hear Shirley-Quirk in my inner ear.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 17, 2018, 04:07:44 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 16, 2018, 11:30:34 PM
Vandermolen - because of the extensive EMI catalogue of British music for me John Shirley-Quirk's voice is very much the SOUND I associate with 20th Century English Choral music.  As the 'go-to' bass/baritone he appears on so many of the great recordings.  So whether its the Previn/LSO Belshazzar or this Mystical Songs or the Meredith Davis/Village Romeo, I hear Shirley-Quirk in my inner ear.
Totally agree with you. Ian Partridge was the other name I always looked out for - a wonderful singer. Nowadays I rate Roderick Williams very highly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on December 17, 2018, 08:10:33 AM
I agree too. I believe RVW Songs of Travel is Shirley-Quirk's debut recording. I would not be without it.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515gX-IPLPL._SX342_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on December 17, 2018, 08:34:35 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 12, 2018, 12:59:28 PM
Thanks much -- given your avatar, it means doubly much to me. (I may have, since your comment, updated it with the Mark Eldar cycle, since that's only two symphonies from being completed.)

Manze's Sea Symphony was released at the end of last month, so he only needs to record the Antartica to finish his cycle. (I like it, but it seems others do not.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on December 17, 2018, 08:35:50 AM
Quote from: JBS on December 17, 2018, 08:34:35 AM
Manze's Sea Symphony was released at the end of last month, so he only needs to record the Antartica to finish his cycle. (I like it, but it seems others do not.)

If he were recording for a major record label, this would be the point at which they cancel the cycle...  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 17, 2018, 10:20:55 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 17, 2018, 08:10:33 AM
I agree too. I believe RVW Songs of Travel is Shirley-Quirk's debut recording. I would not be without it.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515gX-IPLPL._SX342_.jpg)
Me too, although I came to appreciate this work comparatively late. I like both the piano and orchestral versions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 17, 2018, 10:22:45 AM
Quote from: JBS on December 17, 2018, 08:34:35 AM
Manze's Sea Symphony was released at the end of last month, so he only needs to record the Antartica to finish his cycle. (I like it, but it seems others do not.)

Haitink and the new Brabbins impress me most in this symphony. I've decided not to buy the Manze version, although that has more to do with trying to resist CD gluttony on my part.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 18, 2018, 09:51:19 AM
Quote from: JBS on December 17, 2018, 08:34:35 AM
Manze's Sea Symphony was released at the end of last month, so he only needs to record the Antartica to finish his cycle. (I like it, but it seems others do not.)

I think that the 9th is also still missing, right? But that could be one release.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 18, 2018, 10:34:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 17, 2018, 04:07:44 AM
Ian Partridge was the other name I always looked out for - a wonderful singer.

Yes absolutely.  Partridge's "On Wenlock Edge" is just gorgeous and I love his one (luxury casting!) line in Sancta Civitas - "I am the bright and morning star......."  His Schubert cycles are rather wonderful too.  Many years ago I did a St. John with him as the Evangelist and it was perfection.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 18, 2018, 10:37:38 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 18, 2018, 10:34:56 AM
Yes absolutely.  Partridge's "On Wenlock Edge" is just gorgeous and I love his one (luxury casting!) line in Sancta Civitas - "I am the bright and morning star......."  His Schubert cycles are rather wonderful too.  Many years ago I did a St. John with him as the Evangelist and it was perfection.

Totally agree about those VW recordings and that moment in Sancta Civitas in particular.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 18, 2018, 10:39:57 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 18, 2018, 09:51:19 AM
I think that the 9th is also still missing, right? But that could be one release.

Yes, also we haven't had a No.9 from Elder either.

Other than the fine Elder No.3 I rather regret buying the Manze and Elder releases but have been very impressed by the two releases in the Brabbins cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 19, 2018, 03:24:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 18, 2018, 10:39:57 PM
Yes, also we haven't had a No.9 from Elder either.

Other than the fine Elder No.3 I rather regret buying the Manze and Elder releases but have been very impressed by the two releases in the Brabbins cycle.
My words.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 19, 2018, 03:29:51 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 19, 2018, 03:24:36 AM
My words.  :)
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 19, 2018, 01:41:10 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2018, 03:29:51 AM
:)
(Except that I listened to most of the Manze and Elder series on Spotify, and decided not to buy them. But find Elder's Pastoral very good (we won't discuss the soprano, will we?)  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on December 19, 2018, 04:06:45 PM
I do like Manze's recordings, but I felt let down by  what I heard of Elder's. They seemed well below the level of his Elgar.
IIRC, I got the first 2 RVW releases and stopped after that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 20, 2018, 02:38:36 AM
Until the severely disappointing disc of Nos 4 & 6 I rated Elder's cycle very highly with Nos 1, 3 & 8 being among the very best.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 29, 2018, 01:57:02 PM
Sensational performance of Symphony 4 (1950)
[asin]B009IQA17Y[/asin]
I put this on for the Benjamin tonight but listened to the VW as well. I'd say that this was a deeply felt a performance of this work and better IMHO than the composer's much lauded 1937 recording. Barbirolli is about 5 minutes longer but it is better recorded and less of a rush through the score.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on December 31, 2018, 07:39:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 29, 2018, 01:57:02 PM
Sensational performance of Symphony 4 (1950)


Ditto for Antarctica.

(https://img.discogs.com/a39bOFyUcz0yGu9Ddm8v5r6o408=/fit-in/500x511/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7877055-1450718112-9679.jpeg.jpg)

I always think of Boult and Barbirolli as the yin and yang of Vaughan Williams with Previn somewhere in between. I have most of the mono Decca Boult set but unfortunately not the 7th. So the comparison was between Barbirolli with the later stereo EMI Boult. Sir Adrian is more of a symphonist and that is no where more apparent then with Antarctica. With the opening Prelude on Sir John's recording there is a clear vision of trudging at a deliberate pace through deep snow, the glaciers and freezing cold are all there. This reading is more cinematic which for me makes it a clear winner. Boult attempts to make more of a symphony of Antarctica which diminishes the effect. The 7th is great music but not a great symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 31, 2018, 11:39:29 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 31, 2018, 07:39:57 AM
Ditto for Antarctica.

(https://img.discogs.com/a39bOFyUcz0yGu9Ddm8v5r6o408=/fit-in/500x511/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7877055-1450718112-9679.jpeg.jpg)

I always think of Boult and Barbirolli as the yin and yang of Vaughan Williams with Previn somewhere in between. I have most of the mono Decca Boult set but unfortunately not the 7th. So the comparison was between Barbirolli with the later stereo EMI Boult. Sir Adrian is more of a symphonist and that is no where more apparent then with Antarctica. With the opening Prelude on Sir John's recording there is a clear vision of trudging at a deliberate pace through deep snow, the glaciers and freezing cold are all there. This reading is more cinematic which for me makes it a clear winner. Boult attempts to make more of a symphony of Antarctica which diminishes the effect. The 7th is great music but not a great symphony.

Largely agree although I think that Boult's more objective way with Vaughan Williams works well with the icy wastes of Antartica. Barbirolli brings more warmth to Vaughan Williams.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 08, 2019, 12:18:17 AM
Listening to a collection of British piano pieces by John McCabe I came across "Hymn Tune Prelude on Song 13 - Orlando Gibbons". With a title like that how could you not be intrigued by the piece? Short in length but by no means slight in content. I am captivated by the piece. RVW wrote it for Harriet Cohen - easy to see why Bax was smitten - and in typical modesty wrote on the MS "For Harriet Cohen but only if she likes it. If not, delete your name and return to me, I shan't be huffy."

(https://i.imgur.com/2jWYwc0.jpg)

After McCabe, Cohen's tempo was slow and took some getting used to. It did take the work to a higher emotional level, however. In actual fact, Cohen was following instructions from the composer. He wrote before the first performance "I know you will play it beautifully - no, not too quick; and calm but with subconscious emotion".

https://youtu.be/eIffkd6n6-0
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 07:49:26 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 08, 2019, 12:18:17 AM
Listening to a collection of British piano pieces by John McCabe I came across "Hymn Tune Prelude on Song 13 - Orlando Gibbons". With a title like that how could you not be intrigued by the piece? Short in length but by no means slight in content. I am captivated by the piece. RVW wrote it for Harriet Cohen - easy to see why Bax was smitten - and in typical modesty wrote on the MS "For Harriet Cohen but only if she likes it. If not, delete your name and return to me, I shan't be huffy."

(https://i.imgur.com/2jWYwc0.jpg)

After McCabe, Cohen's tempo was slow and took some getting used to. It did take the work to a higher emotional level, however. In actual fact, Cohen was following instructions from the composer. He wrote before the first performance "I know you will play it beautifully - no, not too quick; and calm but with subconscious emotion".

https://youtu.be/eIffkd6n6-0
Interesting. Must look out for that one.

I see its on a recent CD of VW's piano music which I have. The orchestral version is coupled with Richard Hickox's recording of Symphony 5. I recall really enjoying all the shorter works on that CD, such as 'The Pilgrim's Pavement'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on January 08, 2019, 07:58:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 07:49:26 AM
Interesting. Must look out for that one.

I see its on a recent CD of VW's piano music which I have. The orchestral version is coupled with Richard Hickox's recording of Symphony 5. I recall really enjoying all the shorter works on that CD, such as 'The Pilgrim's Pavement'.

The piece is also available on the album 'The Sons of the Morning' (Albion Records), played by Ian Burnside. I suppose the Harriet Cohen is special as it was written for her but the IB disc might be more readily available.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 08:01:17 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 08, 2019, 07:58:31 AM
The piece is also available on the album 'The Sons of the Morning' (Albion Records), played by Ian Burnside. I suppose the Harriet Cohen is special as it was written for her but the IB disc might be more readily available.
Thanks.
I have that CD as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on January 08, 2019, 08:08:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 08:01:17 AM
Thanks.
I have that CD as well.

I also have the Hickox album - just played the Prelude - beautiful. These short pieces tend to get overlooked, glad it was brought to my attention.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 09:04:56 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 08, 2019, 08:08:42 AM
I also have the Hickox album - just played the Prelude - beautiful. These short pieces tend to get overlooked, glad it was brought to my attention.

Pleased that you enjoyed them. That CD has given me great pleasure, not just the symphony but all the shorter works as well. It's probably my favourite CD in the Hickox cycle other that the revelatory 1913 version of 'A London Symphony'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2019, 08:05:52 AM
What does everyone here think of Andrew Manze's traversal of RVW's symphonies on Onyx so far? I've only heard the first installment (A London Symphony & Symphony No. 8), but was rather underwhelmed by the performances.

Released so far:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81mvqo6ybNL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/811A9c1mLcL._SL1000_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81MTuXYHtrL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81tY7NbafpL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on January 13, 2019, 08:50:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2019, 08:05:52 AM
What does everyone here think of Andrew Manze's traversal of RVW's symphonies on Onyx so far? I've only heard the first installment (A London Symphony & Symphony No. 8), but was rather underwhelmed by the performances.

Released so far:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81mvqo6ybNL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/811A9c1mLcL._SL1000_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81MTuXYHtrL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81tY7NbafpL._SL1200_.jpg)

Too soon to tell; I have them all but haven't listened to the Sea Symphony yet. None of them have been a knock-out but also none complete duds. Initially I held back from buying Nos 3 & 4 after hearing No 3 on the radio but eventually succumbed - I have only listened to the disc a couple of times but it is growing on me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2019, 09:19:38 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 13, 2019, 08:50:14 AM
Too soon to tell; I have them all but haven't listened to the Sea Symphony yet. None of them have been a knock-out but also none complete duds. Initially I held back from buying Nos 3 & 4 after hearing No 3 on the radio but eventually succumbed - I have only listened to the disc a couple of times but it is growing on me.

My problem with the conducting, and general performance, is I believe it to be competent and well-played, but that's all it was, which, unfortunately, can be said of so many recent recordings nowadays. For me, the best (more) recent performances of RVW I've heard have been from Brabbins and a performance of A Pastoral Symphony from Mark Elder.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 13, 2019, 10:24:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2019, 09:19:38 AM
My problem with the conducting, and general performance, is I believe it to be competent and well-played, but that's all it was, which, unfortunately, can be said of so many recent recordings nowadays. For me, the best (more) recent performances of RVW I've heard have been from Brabbins and a performance of A Pastoral Symphony from Mark Elder.
This is my experience exactly. I have the top three CDs of symphonies 2 and 8, 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 but don't intend to collect any more of the series except possibly No.9 which I really like. The Brabbins CDs of the 1920 London Symphony and A Sea Symphony have grabbed me much more. Nothing wrong with the Manze recordings and some really like them but they don't do it for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2019, 10:39:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 13, 2019, 10:24:48 AM
This is my experience exactly. I have the top three CDs of symphonies 2 and 8, 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 but don't intend to collect any more of the series except possibly No.9 which I really like. The Brabbins CDs of the 1920 London Symphony and A Sea Symphony have grabbed me much more. Nothing wrong with the Manze recordings and some really like them but they don't do it for me.

The thing about the Brabbins is I feel someone behind the podium who loves the music, but, at the same time, wants to try a newer approach. I don't want to discount Manze by saying he doesn't love the music, but I feel that somehow Brabbins has lived with the music longer and wants to find a way to bring this lifelong experience into the music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 13, 2019, 10:40:03 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2019, 09:19:38 AMMy problem with the conducting, and general performance, is I believe it to be competent and well-played, but that's all it was, which, unfortunately, can be said of so many recent recordings nowadays. For me, the best (more) recent performances of RVW I've heard have been from Brabbins and a performance of A Pastoral Symphony from Mark Elder.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 13, 2019, 10:24:48 AMThis is my experience exactly. I have the top three CDs of symphonies 2 and 8, 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 but don't intend to collect any more of the series except possibly No.9 which I really like. The Brabbins CDs of the 1920 London Symphony and A Sea Symphony have grabbed me much more. Nothing wrong with the Manze recordings and some really like them but they don't do it for me.

+1. To be honest, I tried only the Manze recordings of nos. 3, 4, 5 and 6 and played them no more than once or twice. Because I found all of them undistinctive, unlike Elder's Pastoral and Brabbins' London, both impressive.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2019, 10:57:52 AM
Quote from: Christo on January 13, 2019, 10:40:03 AM
+1. To be honest, I tried only the Manze recordings of nos. 3, 4, 5 and 6 and played them no more than once or twice. Because I found all of them undistinctive, unlike Elder's Pastoral and Brabbins' London, both impressive.

Seems like most of us here have had the same reactions, which is quite telling.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 14, 2019, 02:22:13 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread -

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2019, 01:30:48 PMVaughan Williams: A Sea Symphony

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81pvkNyWQTL._SL1200_.jpg)

Some general comments: I really like Brabbins' detailed approach and he really succeeds in bringing this symphony's structure into full view. I found Llewellyn's voice to be rather good, but found Farnsworth weak overall. I'm in the midst of finishing up The Explorers movement. Brabbins' pacing and choice of tempi are spot-on. The chorus sounds great throughout as does the BBC Scottish SO. I do hope Brabbins continues this RVW series. Of current recordings of RVW, this one shoots right up to the top (with Brabbins' A London Symphony as well). I have to say I'm eagerly awaiting the next installment.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 14, 2019, 02:29:36 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2019, 02:22:13 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread -
Yes, me too John. Elder and Manze are good (Elder excellent in No.3) but the Brabbins releases so far are something special. Haven't heard Manze's 'A Sea Symphony'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 14, 2019, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 14, 2019, 02:29:36 PM
Yes, me too John. Elder and Manze are good (Elder excellent in No.3) but the Brabbins releases so far are something special. Haven't heard Manze's 'A Sea Symphony'.

Indeed, Jeffrey. I have no interest in acquiring any more of the Manze recordings since I was so thoroughly letdown by his first installment. I mean it's one thing to be not quite good in one symphony and outstanding in another, but Manze's first recording (w/ A London Symphony and Symphony No. 8) wasn't anything special in either symphony. In fact, I found him rather run-of-the-mill and ordinary. Brabbins, on the other hand, makes you believe in this music and takes you on an aural journey. His passion doesn't feel forced or contrived. I believe he truly loves this music and, so far, the performances show this passion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 02:38:15 PM
Having Andrew Davis, Haitink, Previn plus the odd Barbirolli I feel that I am set for life. I have the Brabbins recording of the Londpn Symphony for the different edition but ironically I didn't get past the first movement, which is the same in all editions...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 14, 2019, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 02:38:15 PM
Having Andrew Davis, Haitink, Previn plus the odd Barbirolli I feel that I am set for life. I have the Brabbins recording of the Londpn Symphony for the different edition but ironically I didn't get past the first movement, which is the same in all editions...

Vaughan Williams is one of my absolute favorite composers, so I'm always on the lookout for continuing to build my collection and I'm thankful for what Brabbins has given us so far.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 02:54:26 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2019, 02:40:39 PM
Vaughan Williams is one of my absolute favorite composers, so I'm always on the lookout for continuing to build my collection and I'm thankful for what Brabbins has given us so far.

I should listen again. I had the idea, "I'll listen movement by movement to the 1920 and final edition, side by side, so I'll actually hear the difference." Trouble is, I listened to Brabbins, mvmt I, then Barbirolli, mvmt I, and that was it. Nothing could make me turn off the Barbirolli until I got to the end of the symphony. Then I listened to Haitink, and to Adrew Davis, and I was too saturated with the London Symphony to go back to Brabbins. More discipline next time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 14, 2019, 02:59:45 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 02:54:26 PM
I should listen again. I had the idea, "I'll listen movement by movement to the 1920 and final edition, side by side, so I'll actually hear the difference." Trouble is, I listened to Brabbins, mvmt I, then Barbirolli, mvmt I, and that was it. Nothing could make me turn off the Barbirolli until I got to the end of the symphony. Then I listened to Haitink, and to Adrew Davis, and I was too saturated with the London Symphony to go back to Brabbins. More discipline next time.

Well, over-saturation is never a good thing as I'm quite the expert on this! ;) Yes, you should definitely revisit Brabbins' performance (I'll probably end up doing the same thing rather soon). If I couldn't have the original 1913 version, then the 1920 version will do. Brabbins certainly delivers the goods.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 15, 2019, 02:33:00 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 02:38:15 PM
Having Andrew Davis, Haitink, Previn plus the odd Barbirolli I feel that I am set for life. I have the Brabbins recording of the Londpn Symphony for the different edition but ironically I didn't get past the first movement, which is the same in all editions...
No Boult  :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on January 15, 2019, 04:24:48 AM
I was not going to bother with the Manze cycle. Them I read Simon Heffer:

Heffer describes Manze as "the greatest living interpreter of Vaughan Williams' music, and especially of his symphonies."

"When I first heard that disc [of Vaughan Williams Symphonies No.2 and 8], and despite having already numerous recordings of both symphonies by conductors so close to Vaughan Williams as Boult and Barbirolli, and as insightful about him as Vernon Handley and André Previn, I realised Manze was taking me further inside the works than I had ever been before.

This should not have surprised me. A few years ago, I found a performance of the Fourth Symphony by Manze and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, broadcast on Radio 3, so absorbing I almost crashed my car."

Heffer also offers some insight into Manze's approach to the British composer's work:

"Why is Manze so good at Vaughan Williams? First, he goes back to the original scores and looks carefully at them: so carefully that the Liverpool concert of the Fifth was the first given as the composer intended since he himself last conducted it – because two squiggles in the score that were thought to be notes, and which have been played in every other performance and recording but which the composer knew not to be there, were not notes at all. Manze realised this after listening to a 1952 recording of Vaughan Williams conducting it.

But he also seems to understand the mind of the composer, allowing him to relay his vision with true clarity; and has a keen appreciation of the context in which the music was written. If you add that to superb musicianship and a natural affinity for Vaughan Williams' idiom, you have a combination of qualities that can only lead to inspirational performances.

The performances of the Fifth and Sixth were awesome ... He brings out the significance of every note, played by an orchestra whose coherence and comprehension of these scores lacks nothing. It was time for a truly great modern Vaughan Williams cycle, and this is it."

The first CD in Manze's Vaughan Williams cycle with the RLPO, a recording of Symphonies No.2 and 8 published by Onyx Classics, received widespread critical acclaim on its release in April 2016:

"Manze keeps a tight rein but lets the music blossom. The RLPO and its excellent soloists make a warm, lustrous sound."
Guardian, April 2016

"Manze guides the music with affection and sensitivity, obtaining refined playing from the RLPO ... Manze finds the poetry in the music ... the hushed closing pages are truly magical."


"Manze never puts a foot wrong."

Then I read the accounts of Manze on this forum and decided that Simon Heffer had probably over sold him. I still haven't bought any of them!

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 15, 2019, 04:35:59 AM
Quote from: Oates on January 15, 2019, 04:24:48 AM
I was not going to bother with the Manze cycle. Them I read Simon Heffer:

Heffer describes Manze as "the greatest living interpreter of Vaughan Williams' music, and especially of his symphonies."

"When I first heard that disc [of Vaughan Williams Symphonies No.2 and 8], and despite having already numerous recordings of both symphonies by conductors so close to Vaughan Williams as Boult and Barbirolli, and as insightful about him as Vernon Handley and André Previn, I realised Manze was taking me further inside the works than I had ever been before.

This should not have surprised me. A few years ago, I found a performance of the Fourth Symphony by Manze and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, broadcast on Radio 3, so absorbing I almost crashed my car."

Heffer also offers some insight into Manze's approach to the British composer's work:

"Why is Manze so good at Vaughan Williams? First, he goes back to the original scores and looks carefully at them: so carefully that the Liverpool concert of the Fifth was the first given as the composer intended since he himself last conducted it – because two squiggles in the score that were thought to be notes, and which have been played in every other performance and recording but which the composer knew not to be there, were not notes at all. Manze realised this after listening to a 1952 recording of Vaughan Williams conducting it.

But he also seems to understand the mind of the composer, allowing him to relay his vision with true clarity; and has a keen appreciation of the context in which the music was written. If you add that to superb musicianship and a natural affinity for Vaughan Williams' idiom, you have a combination of qualities that can only lead to inspirational performances.

The performances of the Fifth and Sixth were awesome ... He brings out the significance of every note, played by an orchestra whose coherence and comprehension of these scores lacks nothing. It was time for a truly great modern Vaughan Williams cycle, and this is it."

The first CD in Manze's Vaughan Williams cycle with the RLPO, a recording of Symphonies No.2 and 8 published by Onyx Classics, received widespread critical acclaim on its release in April 2016:

"Manze keeps a tight rein but lets the music blossom. The RLPO and its excellent soloists make a warm, lustrous sound."
Guardian, April 2016

"Manze guides the music with affection and sensitivity, obtaining refined playing from the RLPO ... Manze finds the poetry in the music ... the hushed closing pages are truly magical."


"Manze never puts a foot wrong."

Then I read the accounts of Manze on this forum and decided that Simon Heffer had probably over sold him. I still haven't bought any of them!

That sounds like just the review from an expert in one thing but a non expert in classical music. Easily impressed, not without significant knowledge but also not fully immersed in the subject. And acquainted with the conductor. Could have been Paul Johnson, 20 years ago. Or another few reviewers I can think of. :-)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 15, 2019, 05:07:22 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 15, 2019, 04:35:59 AM
That sounds like just the review from an expert in one thing but a non expert in classical music. Easily impressed, not without significant knowledge but also not fully immersed in the subject. And acquainted with the conductor. Could have been Paul Johnson, 20 years ago. Or another few reviewers I can think of. :-)
I didn't think much of Simon Heffer's book on VW either. It told me absolutely nothing about the composer that I didn't already know.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 15, 2019, 05:10:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 15, 2019, 05:07:22 AMI didn't think much of Simon Heffer's book on VW either. It told me absolutely nothing about the composer that I didn't already know.
+1. It's basically a 'RVW For Dummies' book, a welcome addition to the series.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on January 15, 2019, 05:12:36 AM
Quote from: Oates on January 15, 2019, 04:24:48 AM

"Why is Manze so good at Vaughan Williams? First, he goes back to the original scores and looks carefully at them: so carefully that the Liverpool concert of the Fifth was the first given as the composer intended since he himself last conducted it – because two squiggles in the score that were thought to be notes, and which have been played in every other performance and recording but which the composer knew not to be there, were not notes at all. Manze realised this after listening to a 1952 recording of Vaughan Williams conducting it.


I even think Heffer is wrong about Manze's 5th Symphony. Hadn't this anomaly already been corrected by Martin Yates' version of 2011 on Dutton Epoch, described thus:

"This world premiere recording of Peter Horton's new edition of Vaughan Williams' Fifth Symphony edited from the manuscript is the first time a recording addresses all the textural problems left in the published score. Peter Horton writes: The composer's notoriously hard-to-read handwriting caused further problems, as the copyist assigned to make a fair copy of the score introduced a large number of mistakes, principally (but not exclusively) in the phrasing and articulation. To compound matters, these subsequently made their way into the orchestral parts and the published score."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on January 15, 2019, 05:48:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2019, 02:36:41 PM
... Brabbins, on the other hand, makes you believe in this music and takes you on an aural journey. His passion doesn't feel forced or contrived. I believe he truly loves this music and, so far, the performances show this passion.

I have to confess, I've never had any difficulty believing in the Sea Symphony!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 15, 2019, 05:55:43 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 15, 2019, 05:48:47 AM
I have to confess, I've never had any difficulty believing in the Sea Symphony!
I find that a remarkable feat of endurance  :D; being an admirer of his music for over 40 years myself, yet the Sea Symphony always let me cold, even in its best performances.  :'(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 15, 2019, 06:16:28 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 15, 2019, 05:48:47 AM
I have to confess, I've never had any difficulty believing in the Sea Symphony!

A Sea Symphony was the first symphony I heard by RVW and I did find the music alluring whenever I heard it for the first-time so many years ago, but when I heard the other symphonies, I began to think of it as a good start, but hardly on par with what became my personal favorites. I do think a lot more of it right now as Brabbins has certainly given me a window into the work that I really haven't heard previously. I still stand by my initial criticism of his performance that Farnsworth is underpowered, but as the performance progressed, I started to forget about it and just enjoy the music. Looking forward to revisiting it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 15, 2019, 06:36:01 AM
The Sea Symphony has always been very special for me.  I believe it was the fourth of his symphonies I encountered after 4,5,7.  It's explosive energy and urgency, gorgeous atmospheres and moods, but its deep contemplative finale always held me through its length.  With a very fine composer, it's hard to fault a work - you see it as part of a journey.  Similarly with Sibelius, there is no failure even though No. 1 is unique and not quite in the style the composer would be famous for, but I absolutely adore it along with the rest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 15, 2019, 08:42:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 15, 2019, 02:33:00 AM
No Boult  :o

Boult/EMI almost convinced me that I don't like Vaughan Williams. :( Surprising since I am generally an admirer of Boult.

I have the Boult/Decca, but have never given it a spin. I'm saving it for my dotage. I also have the Chandos cycle but have never gotten around to listening to it.

So I'm not in the market for more Vaughan Williams, except I am determined to listen to the suppressed versions of the London (Hickox and Brabbins)..
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 15, 2019, 10:44:25 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dw-fYylWsAIuLQ5.jpg)

#morninglistening to #VaughanWilliams on #NationalHatDay: #Barbirolli & @the_halle in the 2nd & 8th

: http://a-fwd.to/2yGcUdO

@SurprisedBeauty music! (http://a-fwd.to/2yGcUdO)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2019, 11:12:01 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 15, 2019, 10:44:25 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dw-fYylWsAIuLQ5.jpg)

#morninglistening to #VaughanWilliams on #NationalHatDay: #Barbirolli & @the_halle in the 2nd & 8th

: http://a-fwd.to/2yGcUdO

@SurprisedBeauty music! (http://a-fwd.to/2yGcUdO)

Jens, is that your RVW-listening hat? We need a pic of you and that hat together to make this post legit.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2019, 02:36:03 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 15, 2019, 12:54:17 PM
Why, of course it is!  8)

+10
Awesome!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 15, 2019, 03:02:21 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 15, 2019, 04:35:59 AM
That sounds like just the review from an expert in one thing but a non expert in classical music. Easily impressed, not without significant knowledge but also not fully immersed in the subject. And acquainted with the conductor. Could have been Paul Johnson, 20 years ago. Or another few reviewers I can think of. :-)

I struggle with Manze as a conductor.  For years we are told that he is one of THE great baroque specialist violinists.  This is HIS THING.  We must listen to him and understand this is a musician devoted and dedicated to this aspect of his craft.  Then suddenly, thanks no doubt to a good agent and an even better PR company we suddenly realise that that WASN'T what he was REALLY about at all.  No no no - he's actually a conductor and an ace in RVW etc.  I heard a good story about Manze from his Helsingborg days when he recorded the Brahms symphonies (funny - don't hear much about that cycle do we).  Finishes a session, producer comes on the fold back.  "Well done Andrew, that is the BEST Brahms I have heard....... today"  He is a TODAY conductor - he will not have a legacy - mark my words.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on January 15, 2019, 06:59:00 PM
I will step in and say that I like Manze's RVW recordings. I know I seem to be in the minority here, but I would suggest at least trying one of them before deciding. Since it's the most recent and therefore clearest in my memory, I will say I think he did a better job with Sea Symphony than Brabbyns.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 16, 2019, 12:41:51 AM
I never got on with A Sea Symphony until I heard Haitink's recording which completely transformed my attitude to the work, although the best music IMHO is in the finale. I think Handley's version is good, perhaps the best of his cycle along with No.9 and I like the new Brabbins. Maybe I should fish out my three Manze CDs and give them another spin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 02:15:59 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2019, 02:36:03 PM
+10
Awesome!

I aim to please. Also caused some deal of explaining to my mildly perplexed wife who took the picture. :-)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2019, 06:37:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 16, 2019, 12:41:51 AM
I never got on with A Sea Symphony until I heard Haitink's recording which completely transformed my attitude to the work, although the best music IMHO is in the finale. I think Handley's version is good, perhaps the best of his cycle along with No.9 and I like the new Brabbins. Maybe I should fish out my three Manze CDs and give them another spin.

To the bolded text, nah. If your view on Manze mirrors my own, which I believe it does, then the best thing you could do is probably sell them to a second-hand shop.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 17, 2019, 04:31:13 AM
I was asking some questions over on the current listening thread--to which Irons kindly replied with some information regarding Boult and his recordings of the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis--and am wondering which of the recordings my fellow forumites like best of them (if any)?   :)

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on January 17, 2019, 04:58:03 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 17, 2019, 04:31:13 AM
I was asking some questions over on the current listening thread--to which Irons kindly replied with some information regarding Boult and his recordings of the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis--and am wondering which of the recordings my fellow forumites like best of them (if any)?   :)

Best wishes,

PD
I'd recommend Silvestri & Bournemouth and Barbirolli & Philharmonia.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on January 17, 2019, 05:13:45 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 17, 2019, 04:58:03 AM
I'd recommend Silvestri & Bournemouth and Barbirolli & Philharmonia.

+1 !
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on January 17, 2019, 06:04:02 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 17, 2019, 04:31:13 AM
I was asking some questions over on the current listening thread--to which Irons kindly replied with some information regarding Boult and his recordings of the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis--and am wondering which of the recordings my fellow forumites like best of them (if any)?   :)

Best wishes,

PD

My favourite for the Tallis Fantasia is Barbirolli and the Sinfonia of London but there are numerous other fine recordings including Silvestri/Bournemouth SO. Andrew Davis gave a very fine performance in Gloucester Cathedral as part of a television program; it was issued with the BBC Music Magazine but not otherwise generally available,
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 17, 2019, 07:13:55 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 17, 2019, 06:04:02 AM
My favourite for the Tallis Fantasia is Barbirolli and the Sinfonia of London but there are numerous other fine recordings including Silvestri/Bournemouth SO. Andrew Davis gave a very fine performance in Gloucester Cathedral as part of a television program; it was issued with the BBC Music Magazine but not otherwise generally available,
Still found on Youtube (please, close your eyes during the unnecessarily dramatized opening shot - and enjoy everything that comes after:
https://www.youtube.com/v/GpwqZSp_CyM
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on January 17, 2019, 07:24:23 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 16, 2019, 06:37:12 PM
To the bolded text, nah. If your view on Manze mirrors my own, which I believe it does, then the best thing you could do is probably sell them to a second-hand shop.

:laugh:
I did say I seem to be in the minority here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2019, 07:27:06 AM
Quote from: JBS on January 17, 2019, 07:24:23 AM
:laugh:
I did say I seem to be in the minority here.

8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2019, 08:54:47 AM
Quote from: JBS on January 17, 2019, 07:24:23 AM
:laugh:
I did say I seem to be in the minority here.

I'm happy with my stack of Vaughan-Williams recording and not in the market for more. But it reminds me, I have the Manze/Brahms symphony cycle, which I acquired after the descriptions I read seemed to be a perfect match for my preference in Brahms, but I never got around to listening to it, although I have listened to a lot of Brahms since then. I have too many Brahms recordings...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 17, 2019, 10:10:47 AM
As for Tallis I like Sivestri and any of the Boult recordings. The last two are especially good, on Lyrita (originally coupled with Rubbra's 7th Symphony on LP, though not on CD )and EMI.

I read a review of the new Manze recording of A Sea Symphony which stated that it was very good but did not displace any of the top recordings (Haitink in my view). That is pretty much my view of the Manze cycle, so far,  as a whole and also Vernon Handley's for that matter.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2019, 10:15:32 AM
For Tallis, it's Barbirolli. That's it.

There are pieces of music where I think, "It's been recorded enough, why do they bother?"
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 17, 2019, 10:28:57 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2019, 10:15:32 AM
For Tallis, it's Barbirolli. That's it.

There are pieces of music where I think, "It's been recorded enough, why do they bother?"

For some reason I hardly ever listen to the Barbirolli, although his is my favourite version of Symphony 5 and the 1936 version of A London Symphony. I think that I prefer Boult's more objective approach to the music of VW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 17, 2019, 01:03:22 PM
Nice to read about your favorites.  I dug a bit further and noticed that on LP, I also have a recording with Leonard Slatkin (haven't listened to it yet).  Also, I forgot to check through my box sets (!   :-[ ).  I do have the recording with Silvestri, but alas not the one with Barbirolli (I do really enjoy the VW symphonic recordings that I've heard with him conducting; I have a few on CD and some on LP).  A while back, I bought a special EMI boxed set of Barbirolli's recordings; believe that it includes Vaughan Williams' fifth symphony, but nothing else by him.

Regarding Andrew Davis, thank you for that youtube link.  I'll watch it later.  I've heard that special live recording before now (trying to find a copy of that BBC MM disc).  As an aside, I did see him conduct the Tallis live once which was quite special.   :)

I'll have to look again in a bit to see what other suggestions/comments I might have missed.  Thanks again!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2019, 01:07:26 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 17, 2019, 01:03:22 PM
Nice to read about your favorites.  I dug a bit further and noticed that on LP, I also have a recording with Leonard Slatkin (haven't listened to it yet).  Also, I forgot to check through my box sets (!   :-[ ).  I do have the recording with Silvestri, but alas not the one with Barbirolli (I do really enjoy the VW symphonic recordings that I've heard with him conducting; I have a few on CD and some on LP).  A while back, I bought a special EMI boxed set of Barbirolli's recordings; believe that it includes Vaughan Williams' fifth symphony, but nothing else by him.

Regarding Andrew Davis, thank you for that youtube link.  I'll watch it later.  I've heard that special live recording before now (trying to find a copy of that BBC MM disc).  As an aside, I did see him conduct the Tallis live once which was quite special.   :)

I'll have to look again in a bit to see what other suggestions/comments I might have missed.  Thanks again!

PD

If by "special EMI box set" you mean this one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51WMfZo5igL._SY355_.jpg)

You have V-W 2, 5 and Tallis Fantasia.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 17, 2019, 03:23:40 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 17, 2019, 10:10:47 AM
As for Tallis I like Sivestri and any of the Boult recordings. The last two are especially good, on Lyrita (originally coupled with Rubbra's 7th Symphony on LP, though not on CD )and EMI.

I read a review of the new Manze recording of A Sea Symphony which stated that it was very good but did not displace any of the top recordings (Haitink in my view). That is pretty much my view of the Manze cycle, so far,  as a whole and also Vernon Handley's for that matter.
Hi Vandermolen.

I have the Haitink CD set of VW's symphonies but it's been a while since I've listened to them.  So, if I'm understanding you correctly, his are your favorite recordings of VW's symphonies?  And also that you are not keen on Vernon Handley's recordings of the symphonies?

Not the biggest fan of A Sea Symphony ....should give it some more listens to.

Best,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 17, 2019, 03:32:23 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2019, 01:07:26 PM
If by "special EMI box set" you mean this one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51WMfZo5igL._SY355_.jpg)

You have V-W 2, 5 and Tallis Fantasia.

Thank you!  I was confusing it with another set that I have--it's a Documents/Membran one which only has Symphony No. 5.  But, yes, I do also have that EMI set (had forgotten the name of the series); I see that Greensleeves is also on it too.  Will have to revisit it.   Thanks again! ;D

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 22, 2019, 01:23:29 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 17, 2019, 03:23:40 PM
Hi Vandermolen.

I have the Haitink CD set of VW's symphonies but it's been a while since I've listened to them.  So, if I'm understanding you correctly, his are your favorite recordings of VW's symphonies?  And also that you are not keen on Vernon Handley's recordings of the symphonies?

Not the biggest fan of A Sea Symphony ....should give it some more listens to.

Best,

PD

Hi PJ - sorry, I only just saw this post.

Haitink's is my favourite 'A Sea Symphony' and won me over to an appreciation of it after decades of neglect. I wouldn't say that his is my favourite overall survey of the VW symphonies necessarily. As a collection I prefer both of the Boult (Decca and EMI) and the underrated Thompson boxed set on Chandos. Handley's are very sound but none are my favourite versions which are:
A Sea Symphony: Haitink
A London Symphony: Hickox (1913) Brabbins (1920) Previn (1936)
A Pastoral Symphony: Previn
Symphony 4: Berglund
Symphony 5: Barbirolli (EMI) + VW's own historical recording
Symphony 6: Boult (Decca) if you want a more modern recording: Berglund or Thompson.
Sinfonia Antartica: Boult (Decca) Haitink is highly rated but I need to hear it again. Rozhdestvensky is worth hearing for the organ going 'Dr Phibes' at one point. It is a very interesting cycle however.
Symphony 8: Previn
Symphony 9: Stokowski, Slatkin, Thompson, either Boult version.

I see that I've chosen several Previn recordings as my favourite so he is a good choice too and now very inexpensive, albeit without any notes in its current manifestation.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DaveF on January 22, 2019, 04:31:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 22, 2019, 01:23:29 AM
I see that I've chosen several Previn recordings as my favourite so he is a good choice too and now very inexpensive, albeit without any notes in its current manifestation.

Based on that recommendation I went looking for the cheap Previn box (I'm rehearsing for a performance of the London Symphony at the moment, so VW is high on my listening list) and found this splendid Amazonian mish-mash: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Sym-Previn-Lso/dp/B00000E6D1/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1548163515&sr=8-4.  It's worth scrolling down to the customer review by "Peter" as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 22, 2019, 04:48:36 AM
Quote from: DaveF on January 22, 2019, 04:31:00 AM
Based on that recommendation I went looking for the cheap Previn box (I'm rehearsing for a performance of the London Symphony at the moment, so VW is high on my listening list) and found this splendid Amazonian mish-mash: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Sym-Previn-Lso/dp/B00000E6D1/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1548163515&sr=8-4.  It's worth scrolling down to the customer review by "Peter" as well.

Yes, Peter's review should place him top of the Amazon Reviewers chart! It reminds me of the time when I applied for a job teaching History at a school and received a reply stating that there had been an error in the job advertisement and they actually wanted a Maths teacher.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 22, 2019, 07:14:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 22, 2019, 01:23:29 AM
Hi PJ - sorry, I only just saw this post.

Haitink's is my favourite 'A Sea Symphony' and won me over to an appreciation of it after decades of neglect. I wouldn't say that his is my favourite overall survey of the VW symphonies necessarily. As a collection I prefer both of the Boult (Decca and EMI) and the underrated Thompson boxed set on Chandos. Handley's are very sound but none are my favourite versions which are:
A Sea Symphony: Haitink
A London Symphony: Hickox (1913) Brabbins (1920) Previn (1936)
A Pastoral Symphony: Previn
Symphony 4: Berglund
Symphony 5: Barbirolli (EMI) + VW's own historical recording
Symphony 6: Boult (Decca) if you want a more modern recording: Berglund or Thompson.
Sinfonia Antartica: Boult (Decca) Haitink is highly rated but I need to hear it again. Rozhdestvensky is worth hearing for the organ going 'Dr Phibes' at one point. It is a very interesting cycle however.
Symphony 8: Previn
Symphony 9: Stokowski, Slatkin, Thompson, either Boult version.

I see that I've chosen several Previn recordings as my favourite so he is a good choice too and now very inexpensive, albeit without any notes in its current manifestation.

Hi Vandermolen,

I have a number of the recordings that you mention and agree with you on at least several of them.  One thing I'm wondering:  have you heard Symphony No. 9, Boult on Everest?  I love that recording!  For any here who are not familiar with it, Boult recorded it very shortly after Vaughan Williams death (I read 7 hours on one site) and mentions that at the very beginning of the recording.  Such an intense opening and I think very powerful performance of the symphony.

Like you, I also have the Previn set (clamshell box set with a booklet with notes about the symphonies in various languages).  The Barbirolli 5 and VW's own (I have it on Somm) are favorites too.  A friend of mine also sent me an off-the-air recording that he had of a performance also conducted by VW which he had attended when he was I think about 10 years old too.  :-)

Have most of the Hickox Hybrid-SACD ones (except for the Sea Symphony) and the London is quite interesting to listen to though I do understand why Vaughan Williams made the cuts [There's also a wonderful Butterworth recording on it; first time that I had ever heard any works by that composer.].

Berglund in VW....I don't recall hearing any of his recordings?  Will have to dig around in collection and also online to see if I can find any (I do recall hearing that they were supposed to be good and once ran across a LP of one of them, but alas it had a big scratch on it).

Regarding Thomson:  I have a few of his recordings, but confess that so far anyway, his recordings haven't yet 'clicked' with me.  And I have the Boult Decca (clamshell) set....would like to get ahold of his later set at some point.  For some reason or another, I had trouble with the sound on the Decca set; don't normally have an issue listening to old(er) recordings as a whole.  :-(

By the way, does anyone here have the Bach recording that VW conducted?  It, alas, wasn't available for very long and I dithered too long on whether or not to buy it.  So it goes... :-(

Best,

PD

p.s.  Music from Turina???!  Huh?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on January 22, 2019, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 22, 2019, 07:14:18 AM
Hi Vandermolen,

I have a number of the recordings that you mention and agree with you on at least several of them.  One thing I'm wondering:  have you heard Symphony No. 9, Boult on Everest?  I love that recording!  For any here who are not familiar with it, Boult recorded it very shortly after Vaughan Williams death (I read 7 hours on one site) and mentions that at the very beginning of the recording.  Such an intense opening and I think very powerful performance of the symphony.

Like you, I also have the Previn set (clamshell box set with a booklet with notes about the symphonies in various languages).  The Barbirolli 5 and VW's own (I have it on Somm) are favorites too.  A friend of mine also sent me an off-the-air recording that he had of a performance also conducted by VW which he had attended when he was I think about 10 years old too.  :-)

Have most of the Hickox Hybrid-SACD ones (except for the Sea Symphony) and the London is quite interesting to listen to though I do understand why Vaughan Williams made the cuts [There's also a wonderful Butterworth recording on it; first time that I had ever heard any works by that composer.].

Berglund in VW....I don't recall hearing any of his recordings?  Will have to dig around in collection and also online to see if I can find any (I do recall hearing that they were supposed to be good and once ran across a LP of one of them, but alas it had a big scratch on it).

Regarding Thomson:  I have a few of his recordings, but confess that so far anyway, his recordings haven't yet 'clicked' with me.  And I have the Boult Decca (clamshell) set....would like to get ahold of his later set at some point.  For some reason or another, I had trouble with the sound on the Decca set; don't normally have an issue listening to old(er) recordings as a whole.  :-(

By the way, does anyone here have the Bach recording that VW conducted?  It, alas, wasn't available for very long and I dithered too long on whether or not to buy it.  So it goes... :-(

Best,

PD

p.s.  Music from Turina???!  Huh?

Berglund recorded Symphony No 4 with the RPO and No 6 with the Bournemouth SO. I have them as part of the Warner Icon box (13CDs) but possibly they are available separately.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 22, 2019, 08:36:44 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 22, 2019, 08:04:40 AM
Berglund recorded Symphony No 4 with the RPO and No 6 with the Bournemouth SO. I have them as part of the Warner Icon box (13CDs) but possibly they are available separately.

They're both outstanding and conveniently coupled on this EMI Twofer: http://a-fwd.to/6Gr6eCE
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2019, 08:13:17 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 22, 2019, 08:36:44 AM
They're both outstanding and conveniently coupled on this EMI Twofer: http://a-fwd.to/6Gr6eCE

+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 22, 2019, 10:43:41 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 22, 2019, 07:14:18 AM
Hi Vandermolen,

I have a number of the recordings that you mention and agree with you on at least several of them.  One thing I'm wondering:  have you heard Symphony No. 9, Boult on Everest?  I love that recording!  For any here who are not familiar with it, Boult recorded it very shortly after Vaughan Williams death (I read 7 hours on one site) and mentions that at the very beginning of the recording.  Such an intense opening and I think very powerful performance of the symphony.

Like you, I also have the Previn set (clamshell box set with a booklet with notes about the symphonies in various languages).  The Barbirolli 5 and VW's own (I have it on Somm) are favorites too.  A friend of mine also sent me an off-the-air recording that he had of a performance also conducted by VW which he had attended when he was I think about 10 years old too.  :-)

Have most of the Hickox Hybrid-SACD ones (except for the Sea Symphony) and the London is quite interesting to listen to though I do understand why Vaughan Williams made the cuts [There's also a wonderful Butterworth recording on it; first time that I had ever heard any works by that composer.].

Berglund in VW....I don't recall hearing any of his recordings?  Will have to dig around in collection and also online to see if I can find any (I do recall hearing that they were supposed to be good and once ran across a LP of one of them, but alas it had a big scratch on it).

Regarding Thomson:  I have a few of his recordings, but confess that so far anyway, his recordings haven't yet 'clicked' with me.  And I have the Boult Decca (clamshell) set....would like to get ahold of his later set at some point.  For some reason or another, I had trouble with the sound on the Decca set; don't normally have an issue listening to old(er) recordings as a whole.  :-(

By the way, does anyone here have the Bach recording that VW conducted?  It, alas, wasn't available for very long and I dithered too long on whether or not to buy it.  So it goes... :-(

Best,

PD

p.s.  Music from Turina???!  Huh?

Hi PD (sorry I called you 'PJ'  ::))
The Berglund No.4 was BBC Record Review top choice a while back. Not that that in itself is necessarily important - they chose the Hickox version of No.6 which I didn't think was that good).
I have the Pearl CD of VW conducting Bach but have hardly ever listened to it I'm afraid.
Yes, I really like Boult's Everest release of Symphony 9 (also included in the Decca box). It is very moving indeed. Some versions start with a speech by Boult acknowledging the composer's death a few hours before the recording session. I also like Boult's EMI recording and one by Andrew Davis issued with BBC Music Magazine a while back. The other interesting recorded speech is that from the composer himself thanking Boult and the LPO 'including the lady harpist' at the end of Boult's IMHO unrivalled performance of Symphony 6 on Decca. I agree with you about the cuts in A London Symphony. He should have stopped at least at the 1920 edition as in 1936 he cut out the most moving section of the symphony just before the end. Richard Hickox agreed when I briefly spoke to him when I asked him to sign my concert programme. I've been really impressed by the two recent Brabbins releases.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 23, 2019, 03:03:18 PM
To SurprisedByBeauty and Mirror Image (and Vandermolens)...thank you for your helpful comments and suggestions as to what to buy.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 23, 2019, 07:06:44 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 22, 2019, 10:43:41 PM
Hi PD (sorry I called you 'PJ'  ::))
The Berglund No.4 was BBC Record Review top choice a while back. Not that that in itself is necessarily important - they chose the Hickox version of No.6 which I didn't think was that good).
I have the Pearl CD of VW conducting Bach but have hardly ever listened to it I'm afraid.
Yes, I really like Boult's Everest release of Symphony 9 (also included in the Decca box). It is very moving indeed. Some versions start with a speech by Boult acknowledging the composer's death a few hours before the recording session. I also like Boult's EMI recording and one by Andrew Davis issued with BBC Music Magazine a while back. The other interesting recorded speech is that from the composer himself thanking Boult and the LPO 'including the lady harpist' at the end of Boult's IMHO unrivalled performance of Symphony 6 on Decca. I agree with you about the cuts in A London Symphony. He should have stopped at least at the 1920 edition as in 1936 he cut out the most moving section of the symphony just before the end. Richard Hickox agreed when I briefly spoke to him when I asked him to sign my concert programme. I've been really impressed by the two recent Brabbins releases.

Surprisingly, or not so surprisingly, I found his performance of A London Symphony of the original 1913 version to be stellar, but little else grabbed me in his Chandos series. Generally, I find his work on EMI to be much better.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 23, 2019, 09:36:26 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 23, 2019, 07:06:44 PM
Surprisingly, or not so surprisingly, I found his performance of A London Symphony of the original 1913 version to be stellar, but little else grabbed me in his Chandos series. Generally, I find his work on EMI to be much better.

Largely agree John although I liked the short work works coupled with Symphony 5 like 'The Pilgrim's Pavement'. I saw him conduct a live performance of Symphony 9 shortly before his premature death. I'm sorry that it was not recorded as it would have helped to complete his Chandos cycle apart from Sinfonia Antartica.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 24, 2019, 01:13:55 AM
I have written PJ more then once but then managed to correct myself. Why do we do that? I know for a fact that PD is passionate about RVW. The last few pages have made interesting reading all of which I largely agree with. There is an elephant in the room with this recent survey (I haven't checked back further). I would be interested in views of recordings and even more so the work itself - Job: A Masque for Dancing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on January 24, 2019, 01:57:32 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 24, 2019, 01:13:55 AM
I have written PJ more then once but then managed to correct myself. Why do we do that? I know for a fact that PD is passionate about RVW. The last few pages have made interesting reading all of which I largely agree with. There is an elephant in the room with this recent survey (I haven't checked back further). I would be interested in views of recordings and even more so the work itself - Job: A Masque for Dancing.

Boult's 1971 recording with the LSO was my first version and is still my favourite. This might be because for years it was the only one I knew and it is indelibly imprinted on my brain. No other version I have heard comes close though I like the recent Andrew Davis/Bergen Philharmonic release. I know Boult recorded the work more than once but haven't heard any of the others.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 24, 2019, 06:46:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 23, 2019, 09:36:26 PM
Largely agree John although I liked the short work works coupled with Symphony 5 like 'The Pilgrim's Pavement'. I saw him conduct a live performance of Symphony 9 shortly before his premature death. I'm sorry that it was not recorded as it would have helped to complete his Chandos cycle apart from Sinfonia Antartica.

Yeah, the only Chandos RVW recordings I truly love is Bryden Thomson's cycle (+ his box set of concerti and other orchestral works). But it seems as a whole, Boult (II) and Previn are my go-to symphony cycles.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 06:58:34 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 24, 2019, 01:13:55 AM
I have written PJ more then once but then managed to correct myself. Why do we do that? I know for a fact that PD is passionate about RVW. The last few pages have made interesting reading all of which I largely agree with. There is an elephant in the room with this recent survey (I haven't checked back further). I would be interested in views of recordings and even more so the work itself - Job: A Masque for Dancing.
I guess because of PoJholas also wasn't there a character in a British sitcom decades ago known as 'PJ'?

As for Job,I like all Boult's recordings. He recorded it many times maybe because it is dedicated to him. I have the premiere recording on EMI the one on Decca, one on Everest, the later EMI and a live one on Intaglio from the VW Centenary Concert in 1972 which I attended as a tiny pupil. The 1971 is especially fine. I'd also recommend a recent reissue by Barry Wordsworth on Alto with notes by me  :P
[asin]B07G1Z1D2R[/asin]
If I say so myself I think the performance is exceptional.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 24, 2019, 07:14:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 06:58:34 AM
I guess because of PoJholas also wasn't there a character in a British sitcom decades ago known as 'PJ'?

As for Job,I like all Boult's recordings. He recorded it many times maybe because it is dedicated to him. I have the premiere recording on EMI the one on Decca, one on Everest, the later EMI and a live one on Intaglio from the VW Centenary Concert in 1972 which I attended as a tiny pupil. The 1971 is especially fine. I'd also recommend a recent reissue by Barry Wordsworth on Alto with notes by me  :P
[asin]B07G1Z1D2R[/asin]
If I say so myself I think the performance is exceptional.
I see that you received a very nice review for you liner notes--on Music Web International

"He does a good job in covering much-ploughed territory in what is among the most readable of contents and styles."   :)

And regarding 'PJ', I'm still getting used to typing it [PD] myself so please don't concern yourself over the minor error!   ;)

Need to go back and revisit Job as it's been quite a while since I've played it.

Believe that I forgot to mention that I also own these sets of VW's recordings?  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51W8gKJW1KL.jpg)  And this one too:  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/715L%2BA8a6IL._SL1114_.jpg)

Best,

PD (also known at times as 'PJ')
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 08:21:37 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 24, 2019, 07:14:25 AM
I see that you received a very nice review for you liner notes--on Music Web International

"He does a good job in covering much-ploughed territory in what is among the most readable of contents and styles."   :)

And regarding 'PJ', I'm still getting used to typing it [PD] myself so please don't concern yourself over the minor error!   ;)

Need to go back and revisit Job as it's been quite a while since I've played it.

Believe that I forgot to mention that I also own these sets of VW's recordings?  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51W8gKJW1KL.jpg)  And this one too:  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/715L%2BA8a6IL._SL1114_.jpg)

Best,

PD (also known at times as 'PJ')
Thank you for referencing the nice comment about my notes!  :)
I think that it would save a lot of problems if I referred to you as 'Pohjola's Daughter' which is such a great user name anyway. My brother is 'PDD' so the whole thing has become a hopeless tangle (my late dad was 'DDD'). Contextual comment: I realise that my postings are becoming more and more influenced by cilgwyn  ;D. Anyway, back on topic Handley's 'Job' is excellent and I would rate it more highly that his performances of the symphonies - good as they are. Handley's saw himself as the successor to Boult but I think that Boult was a finer conductor. It is a bit like Boris Johnson seeing himself as the new 'Churchill' (perhaps I'm being unfair and in many ways I'm grateful to Handley - who else would have conducted the Rootham symphonies etc?) The EMI Collectors edition is wonderful and you get the operas and choral works thrown in. Nobody would be disappointed with that I think. There is also a fine 'Boult conducts VW' set.
[asin]B00B2GYJ3U[/asin]
If anyone wants a set of the VW symphonies and doesn't want historical recordings I think that Boult's EMI set would be my top choice. The set above includes them as well as Boult's first EMI recording of Symphony 6 complete with alternative scherzos.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 24, 2019, 09:29:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 08:21:37 AM
Thank you for referencing the nice comment about my notes!  :)
I think that it would save a lot of problems if I referred to you as 'Pohjola's Daughter' which is such a great user name anyway. My brother is 'PDD' so the whole thing has become a hopeless tangle (my late dad was 'DDD'). Contextual comment: I realise that my postings are becoming more and more influenced by cilgwyn  ;D. Anyway, back on topic Handley's 'Job' is excellent and I would rate it more highly that his performances of the symphonies - good as they are. Handley's saw himself as the successor to Boult but I think that Boult was a finer conductor. It is a bit like Boris Johnson seeing himself as the new 'Churchill' (perhaps I'm being unfair and in many ways I'm grateful to Handley - who else would have conducted the Rootham symphonies etc?) The EMI Collectors edition is wonderful and you get the operas and choral works thrown in. Nobody would be disappointed with that I think. There is also a fine 'Boult conducts VW' set.
[asin]B00B2GYJ3U[/asin]
If anyone wants a set of the VW symphonies and doesn't want historical recordings I think that Boult's EMI set would be my top choice. The set above includes them as well as Boult's first EMI recording of Symphony 6 complete with alternative scherzos.

You tempter, you!!  >:D  ;)

And lucky you, being able to write liner notes for albums!  If I might ask, is that your main job?  Or a lucky 'aside'?

Best,

PDDDDDDD.....  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 11:03:59 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 24, 2019, 09:29:56 AM
You tempter, you!!  >:D  ;)

And lucky you, being able to write liner notes for albums!  If I might ask, is that your main job?  Or a lucky 'aside'?

Best,

PDDDDDDD.....  :)

Dear PDPPP Pohjola.
I'm fortunate that writing liner notes is not my main job! I would be destitute if it was. No, I'm a semi-retired teacher. I love the music of Miaskovsky (my avatar) and was dutifully following the wonderful individual releases on the defunct Olympia label. Unlike the Warner boxed set they came complete with insightful notes by a soviet music expert called Per Skans. Very sadly, one day there was a tribute to him as he had passed away. I had communicated with him telling him how much I appreciated his notes for the NM (not to be confused with PD) cycle. I had always entertained a kind of fantasy of writing notes for CDs. My technical knowledge of music is zilch but I've always been fascinated by the lives of the composer's and the social/political/historical context of the music (I'm a History teacher). I also knew a bit about Miaskovsky. So I contacted the company Alto which took over the release of the remaining Miaskovsky symphonies and other orchestral works after Olympia collapsed to ask if they had anyone to continue the notes. I had a polite response saying that they had someone in mind to write the notes but would keep my details on file. I assumed that was the last I'd hear of it but a few weeks later they contacted me to see if I was still interested. I'd reviewed a couple of CDs for Musicweb and sent copies to them. I had cold feet about the whole thing and the boss of Alto told me not to 'crucify' myself and just get on with it! So I did and I've now written the notes for 19CD (18 for Alto and one for Griffin - VW Christmas carols). If I say so myself I do a lot of research (I managed to get in touch with Miaskovsky's Grand-Niece in the USA, for example, and used my Russian pupils as slave labour to translate extracts from Miaskovsky's diaries) and they pay me pocket money. However, it is nice to be paid for doing some writing. So far my notes have been for Myaskovsky (they spell it that way) x5, Shostakovich x3, VW x3, Holst x2, Prokofiev x1, Scriabin x1, Novak x1, Copland x1, Barber x1, Walton x1. I'm especially proud of the Novak and VW Job releases as I suggested them and chose the content for the Novak and told them how great Wordsworth's 'Job' was and I even chose the cover images for Waton Symphony 1 and Shostakovich Symphony 11 'The Year 1905'. Thanks for allowing me to go on a massive ego trip here. I never get the chance to do so at home. So, to cut a long story short (which I haven't) the CD note writing is a lucky aside.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 24, 2019, 11:27:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 11:03:59 AMThanks for allowing me to go on a massive ego trip here. I never get the chance to do so at home.
Even I, as a guest at your lovely home, failed miserably, last Spring.  ???
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 24, 2019, 01:09:55 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 11:03:59 AM
Dear PDPPP Pohjola.
I'm fortunate that writing liner notes is not my main job! I would be destitute if it was. No, I'm a semi-retired teacher. I love the music of Miaskovsky (my avatar) and was dutifully following the wonderful individual releases on the defunct Olympia label. Unlike the Warner boxed set they came complete with insightful notes by a soviet music expert called Per Skans. Very sadly, one day there was a tribute to him as he had passed away. I had communicated with him telling him how much I appreciated his notes for the NM (not to be confused with PD) cycle. I had always entertained a kind of fantasy of writing notes for CDs. My technical knowledge of music is zilch but I've always been fascinated by the lives of the composer's and the the social/political/historical context of the music (I'm a History teacher). I also knew a bit about Miaskovsky. So I contacted the company Alto which took over the release of the remaining Miaskovsky symphonies and other orchestral works after Olympia collapsed to ask if they had anyone to continue the notes. I had a polite response saying that they had someone in mind to write the notes but would keep my details on file. I assumed that was the last I'd hear of it but a few weeks later they contacted me to see if I was still interested. I'd reviewed a couple of CDs for Musicweb and sent copies to them. I had cold feet about the whole thing and the boss of Alto told me not to 'Crucify' myself and just get on with it! So I did and I've now written the notes for 19CD (18 for Alto and one for Griffin - VW Christmas carols). If I say so myself I do a lot of research (I managed to get in touch with Miaskovsky's Grand-Niece in the USA, for example, and used my Russian pupils as slave labour to translate extracts from Miaskovsky's diaries) and they pay me pocket money. However, it is nice to be paid for doing some writing. So far my notes have been for Myaskovsky (they spell it that way) x5, Shostakovich x3, VW x3, Holst x2, Prokofiev x1, Scriabin x1, Novak x1, Copland x1, Barber x1, Walton x1. I'm especially proud of the Novak and VW Job releases as I suggested them and chose the content for the Novak and told them how great Wordsworth's 'Job' was and I even chose the cover images for Waton Symphony 1 and Shostakovich Symphony 11 'The Year 1905'. Thanks for allowing me to go on a massive ego trip here. I never get the chance to do so at home. So, to cut a long story short (which I haven't) the CD note writing is a lucky aside.  8)

Wow. In all seriousness have you thought of writing a book on your enthusiasm for classical music? The late Burnett James wrote such a book, "An Adventure in Music". I bought it decades ago in a second hand bookshop. James writes about his journey through, and discovery of music. A book I find inspirational. With your academic background it would not be beyond you, I'm sure, and with a suitable discount 8) there is a ready made market at GMG.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 04:28:09 PM
Quote from: Christo on January 24, 2019, 11:27:01 AM
Even I, as a guest at your lovely home, failed miserably, last Spring.  ???
Haha - that was a very happy day for me.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 04:33:49 PM
Quote from: Irons on January 24, 2019, 01:09:55 PM
Wow. In all seriousness have you thought of writing a book on your enthusiasm for classical music? The late Burnett James wrote such a book, "An Adventure in Music". I bought it decades ago in a second hand bookshop. James writes about his journey through, and discovery of music. A book I find inspirational. With your academic background it would not be beyond you, I'm sure, and with a suitable discount 8) there is a ready made market at GMG.
Kind of you to suggest this but I doubt that I have the expertise/discipline to do this (this is not false modesty) but maybe I'll write something longer one day. The 1500 word CD booklet note suits me as it can usually be done over a few days (I tend to drag it out) and fitted in between my teaching, other commitments and onerous domestic chores. But thank you for the suggestion.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 24, 2019, 09:23:03 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 04:33:49 PM
Kind of you to suggest this but I doubt that I have the expertise/discipline to do this (this is not false modesty) but maybe I'll write something longer one day. The 1500 word CD booklet note suits me as it can usually be done over a few days (I tend to drag it out) and fitted in between my teaching, other commitments and onerous domestic chores. But thank you for the suggestion.
:)

You could take a pave from Gurn's book and collect your musical knowledge and insights in a blog, or series of essays collected on a web site.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 09:43:38 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 24, 2019, 09:23:03 PM
You could take a pave from Gurn's book and collect your musical knowledge and insights in a blog, or series of essays collected on a web site.
Thank you!

Maybe something along the lines of 'Confessions of a CD nutter'.

Coming back to VW I do very much recommend the Wordsworth recording of Job and not just because of my connection with that release. I had its previous manifestation on Collins and was so impressed that I pestered Alto to reissue it. Also you get the only Lark Ascending featuring the original poem on the recording. Having said that I rather preferred the original Collins coupling of 'The Perfect Fool' by Holst.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 24, 2019, 10:46:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 09:43:38 PM
Thank you!

Maybe something along the lines of 'Confessions of a CD nutter'.

You've already got a catchy title! :)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 25, 2019, 01:37:54 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 24, 2019, 10:46:17 PM
You've already got a catchy title! :)
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 25, 2019, 04:51:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2019, 11:03:59 AM
Dear PDPPP Pohjola.
I'm fortunate that writing liner notes is not my main job! I would be destitute if it was. No, I'm a semi-retired teacher. I love the music of Miaskovsky (my avatar) and was dutifully following the wonderful individual releases on the defunct Olympia label. Unlike the Warner boxed set they came complete with insightful notes by a soviet music expert called Per Skans. Very sadly, one day there was a tribute to him as he had passed away. I had communicated with him telling him how much I appreciated his notes for the NM (not to be confused with PD) cycle. I had always entertained a kind of fantasy of writing notes for CDs. My technical knowledge of music is zilch but I've always been fascinated by the lives of the composer's and the social/political/historical context of the music (I'm a History teacher). I also knew a bit about Miaskovsky. So I contacted the company Alto which took over the release of the remaining Miaskovsky symphonies and other orchestral works after Olympia collapsed to ask if they had anyone to continue the notes. I had a polite response saying that they had someone in mind to write the notes but would keep my details on file. I assumed that was the last I'd hear of it but a few weeks later they contacted me to see if I was still interested. I'd reviewed a couple of CDs for Musicweb and sent copies to them. I had cold feet about the whole thing and the boss of Alto told me not to 'crucify' myself and just get on with it! So I did and I've now written the notes for 19CD (18 for Alto and one for Griffin - VW Christmas carols). If I say so myself I do a lot of research (I managed to get in touch with Miaskovsky's Grand-Niece in the USA, for example, and used my Russian pupils as slave labour to translate extracts from Miaskovsky's diaries) and they pay me pocket money. However, it is nice to be paid for doing some writing. So far my notes have been for Myaskovsky (they spell it that way) x5, Shostakovich x3, VW x3, Holst x2, Prokofiev x1, Scriabin x1, Novak x1, Copland x1, Barber x1, Walton x1. I'm especially proud of the Novak and VW Job releases as I suggested them and chose the content for the Novak and told them how great Wordsworth's 'Job' was and I even chose the cover images for Waton Symphony 1 and Shostakovich Symphony 11 'The Year 1905'. Thanks for allowing me to go on a massive ego trip here. I never get the chance to do so at home. So, to cut a long story short (which I haven't) the CD note writing is a lucky aside.  8)

Oh, neat (for lack of better words)!!  What a great story!  And thank you so much for sharing it.  I'll have to look into the Novak CD (as I enjoy what music I have heard by him....and have a weak spot for Czech composers' music) and the Vaughan Williams one sounds quite interesting too.  I've heard of Barry Wordsworth before but don't know anything about him and his recordings.  When are the Vaughan Williams' ones from?

How did you decide on the artwork for the covers?  I'll have to look them up.  In any event, how wonderful that they listened to your suggestions!  I'm sure that with your background in history and love of music that it must have been a fun journey/experience to think of what would be fitting and appropriate.   :)  And, wow, they liked your suggestions for albums!  How wonderful!  You must have been walking on air when you heard that they decided to go ahead with them!   ;D  Regarding the Lark, does someone read the poem before the performance of it or is it a case of Rossetti's poem being printed in the liner notes?  I'm guessing that someone reads it (which would be sweet)?

Final note:  I've heard of Miaskovsky (and recall that he wrote MANY symphonies)...will have to look into his music at some point in time (finding time right now is a bit challenging).   :)

Best wishes,

PXYZ...D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 25, 2019, 10:04:46 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 25, 2019, 04:51:19 AM
Oh, neat (for lack of better words)!!  What a great story!  And thank you so much for sharing it.  I'll have to look into the Novak CD (as I enjoy what music I have heard by him....and have a weak spot for Czech composers' music) and the Vaughan Williams one sounds quite interesting too.  I've heard of Barry Wordsworth before but don't know anything about him and his recordings.  When are the Vaughan Williams' ones from?

How did you decide on the artwork for the covers?  I'll have to look them up.  In any event, how wonderful that they listened to your suggestions!  I'm sure that with your background in history and love of music that it must have been a fun journey/experience to think of what would be fitting and appropriate.   :)  And, wow, they liked your suggestions for albums!  How wonderful!  You must have been walking on air when you heard that they decided to go ahead with them!   ;D  Regarding the Lark, does someone read the poem before the performance of it or is it a case of Rossetti's poem being printed in the liner notes?  I'm guessing that someone reads it (which would be sweet)?

Final note:  I've heard of Miaskovsky (and recall that he wrote MANY symphonies)...will have to look into his music at some point in time (finding time right now is a bit challenging).   :)

Best wishes,

PXYZ...D
Dear Pohjola's Daughter  :)
Thank you again.
Ego Trip Part 2:
You have to hear the Novak. It has three fabulous works - the South Bohemian Suite, which I much prefer to the more famous Slovak Suite. It was written in 1938 as the war clouds gathered over Czechoslovakia - I find it very moving. Also 'In the Tatras Mountains' - as much a spiritual as a physical journey (Novak liked climbing mountains) and above all the only recording of 'Eight Nocturnes for Voice and Orchestra' - the last one 'Christchild's Lullabye' is one of the most moving things I have heard - you have to hear it  :). Ideally late at night with a glass of wine. The VW recordings are 1990/1991. The eponymous poem by George Meredith is read by Irish actress Niamh Cusack. In the Musicweb review that you read Rob Barnett commented that it was a shame that it was on the same track as The Lark Ascending so you have to hear the poem first but I do not think that is a great problem (well, not compared to Brexit, anyway).
As to the images. Please understand that Alto reject 99% of my suggestions for either music to reissue or appropriate cover images. However I had a couple of successes. Some years ago I decided to train as a (Gestalt) counsellor. This involved a residential weekend in Bournemouth on the south coast of England and home of a fine orchestra. Opposite the hotel was an art gallery in which I came across a painting of 'Terrified Sheep with Thunderstorm Approaching, Picardy'. I thought that this was a wonderful metaphor for my life generally but also a suitable image for a CD cover for either Vaughan Williams's Symphony 6 or Walton's Symphony 1. When I'm walking in the countryside or looking at paintings I often associate the scenes in front of me with music. Amazingly Alto then got in contact with the museum and did a deal so they could use their paintings for CD covers (Russell-Cotes Museum, Bournemouth). As for Shostakovich Symphony 11 'The Year 1905' I simply chose an on-line image which I didn't think had been used before and it was used. So, yes it is great fun to do this stuff. I didn't chose the Novak image.

PS the thunderstorm painting is amazing but you only get part of it on the front of the Walton CD.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 25, 2019, 11:15:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 25, 2019, 10:04:46 AM
Dear Pohjola's Daughter  :)
Thank you again.
Ego Trip Part 2:
You have to hear the Novak. It has three fabulous works - the South Bohemian Suite, which I much prefer to the more famous Slovak Suite. It was written in 1938 as the war clouds gathered over Czechoslovakia - I find it very moving. Also 'In the Tatras Mountains' - as much a spiritual as a physical journey (Novak liked climbing mountains) and above all the only recording of 'Eight Nocturnes for Voice and Orchestra' - the last one 'Christchild's Lullabye' is one of the most moving things I have heard - you have to hear it  :). Ideally late at night with a glass of wine. The VW recordings are 1990/1991. The eponymous poem by George Meredith is read by Irish actress Niamh Cusack. In the Musicweb review that you read Rob Barnett commented that it was a shame that it was on the same track as The Lark Ascending so you have to hear the poem first but I do not think that is a great problem (well, not compared to Brexit, anyway).
As to the images. Please understand that Alto reject 99% of my suggestions for either music to reissue or appropriate cover images. However I had a couple of successes. Some years ago I decided to train as a (Gestalt) counsellor. This involved a residential weekend in Bournemouth on the south coast of England and home of a fine orchestra. Opposite the hotel was an art gallery in which I came across a painting of 'Terrified Sheep with Thunderstorm Approaching, Picardy'. I thought that this was a wonderful metaphor for my life generally but also a suitable image for a CD cover for either Vaughan Williams's Symphony 6 or Walton's Symphony 1. When I'm walking in the countryside or looking at paintings I often associate the scenes in front of me with music. Amazingly Alto then got in contact with the museum and did a deal so they could use their paintings for CD covers (Russell-Cotes Museum, Bournemouth). As for Shostakovich Symphony 11 'The Year 1905' I simply chose an on-line image which I didn't think had been used before and it was used. So, yes it is great fun to do this stuff. I didn't chose the Novak image.

PS the thunderstorm painting is amazing but you only get part of it on the front of the Walton CD.
(//)

Vandermolen,

I don't recall hearing the South Bohemian Suite before now but do recall (some time ago) listening online to a performance of In the Tatras Mountains.  Did a bit of quick digging and saw that I have the Slovak Suite on Supraphon with Talich.  I remember some time ago wanting to purchase a CD on Virgin of Novak's music, but it's now long out of print.  Will try and be patient and clever and see if I might be able to find a copy at a good price.  Will have to keep an eye out for Alto CDs now!

Ah, I see that I was confusing it (The Lark Ascending poem) in my mind with a poem called The Skylark by Rossetti!  I'll have to see if I can locate a copy of the one by George Meredith.   :)

Well, your batting average (re covers and music) if far, far better than most people's!   ;D

Best wishes,

PD

p.s.  Going back to Vaughan Williams, I did just listen to his Pastoral Symphony with Bryden Thomson and enjoyed it much better than I had remembered I'm pleased to report! 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 25, 2019, 11:29:00 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 25, 2019, 11:15:33 AM
Vandermolen,

I don't recall hearing the South Bohemian Suite before now but do recall (some time ago) listening online to a performance of In the Tatras Mountains.  Did a bit of quick digging and saw that I have the Slovak Suite on Supraphon with Talich.  I remember some time ago wanting to purchase a CD on Virgin of Novak's music, but it's now long out of print.  Will try and be patient and clever and see if I might be able to find a copy at a good price.  Will have to keep an eye out for Alto CDs now!

Ah, I see that I was confusing it (The Lark Ascending poem) in my mind with a poem called The Skylark by Rossetti!  I'll have to see if I can locate a copy of the one by George Meredith.   :)

Well, your batting average (re covers and music) if far, far better than most people's!   ;D

Best wishes,

PD

p.s.  Going back to Vaughan Williams, I did just listen to his Pastoral Symphony with Bryden Thomson and enjoyed it much better than I had remembered I'm pleased to report!
PD a number of us here think that the Bryden Thompson VW symphony cycle is underrated and I'm glad that you enjoyed 'A Pastoral Symphony'. Thank you again for your interest in my CD note-writing and cover-selecting adventures.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2019, 02:35:42 PM
I was interested to read in a magazine yesterday that the comedian Bob Mortimer chose 'A Sea Symphony' (Andrew Davis recording) as his one classical choice during his recent appearance on 'Desert Island Discs'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on February 13, 2019, 01:26:22 AM
Going for duration obviously.  Most Desert Island choices are only 3 minutes long.  Perhaps he hadn't come across Satie's Vexations.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2019, 04:35:17 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 13, 2019, 01:26:22 AM
Going for duration obviously.  Most Desert Island choices are only 3 minutes long.  Perhaps he hadn't come across Satie's Vexations.
Good point!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 22, 2019, 11:41:03 PM
If nobody minds, I have copied the conversation on RVW from the WAYLTN thread back here if you fancy continuing it here:

Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2019, 06:11:13 AM

With my recent foray in British orchestral music, I seem to be more receptive to RVW's orchestral music than on previous attempts. I might have to revisit his symphonies sooner rather than later (I have the Handley cycle and Andrew Davis'.). Only the 2nd symphony really stuck with me (that Lento is one of my most favourite symphonic movements), all the rest was just same-y  :-[ 0:)

High time, I re-assess them.

Quote from: vandermolen on February 22, 2019, 06:30:54 AM
No.6 is my favourite but I love them all. You might be interested in the 1913 or 1920 versions of A London Symphony, especially for the deeply moving section which VW (mistakenly in my view) excised from the score in 1936, just before the Epilogue of the last movement. The Handley and Davis sets do not include either version.

Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2019, 07:01:14 AM
I have the Hickox 1913 version on the shelf too but only listened to it once or twice maybe. Will have to revisit that one more carefully for the differences.

Quote from: vandermolen on February 22, 2019, 07:15:40 AM
Re: Hickox VW - it's about a minute and a half of very poignant music shortly before the end, which is completely missing from the more familiar version.

Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2019, 08:28:58 AM
Starting the RVW symphonies...from the end...No.9 it is.

[asin]B0014DAI9U[/asin]

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 22, 2019, 08:47:14 AM
I generally love that set, well balanced, well paced, very good recording quality, interpretations that don't go out on a limb. It lets the music speak for itself, eloquently.

Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2019, 11:33:35 AM
Maybe I have a problem with the music itself  :blank: I listened to the 9th then to Job on the same CD and it still just merges in an overall "sameness", a few soaring moments here and there, all merging together. I'll revisit the other symphonies in the Davis' and Handley's in any case and see how it goes with the rest.

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 22, 2019, 11:43:55 AM
I'm struggling to specifically remember the 9th from that set. Most recently I listened to A London Symphony (#2) and enjoyed it a lot.

Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2019, 11:47:56 AM
I agree on the 2nd, it's the only one that clicked for me, none of the others yet.

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 22, 2019, 11:48:32 AM
Vaughan Williams in general, or this set in particular?

Quote from: Brian on February 22, 2019, 11:49:54 AM
In general 3 and 5 are the only RVW symphonies that click for me. I know I "should" like 2 and 4 and 6, but....not yet...

Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2019, 01:25:08 PM
His symphonies in general. I do enjoy some of his others works (Lark ascending, Tallis fantasia, Wasps overture, etc) but the symphonies, bar the second, just don't register.

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 22, 2019, 01:46:07 PM
I see. Reading this site a person might get the impression the V-W is universally beloved, putting Mozart and Beethoven to shame.

I liked the symphonies the last time I listened to them (excepting 1 and 7, which are banished from my listening rotation) that's all I know. I remember liking them, but I have only the vaguest memory of what each symphony is like, excepting 2 and 3, which I listened to very recently.

Quote from: JBS on February 22, 2019, 02:03:55 PM
as a general thing, my relation to RVW's symphonies is similar...only I like them all equally. But aside from the choral symphonies, tney all blend together for me unless I am actually listening to one of them.  It did take two tries for the Antartica, but I can't recall I single thing I have heard from RVW that I don't like. And most of them I like a lot.  I just don't have specific memory of the music.

Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2019, 02:10:37 PM
That's what can be bugging me sometimes, wondering what I am missing in those works, it's not as if they are obtuse and unapproachable...just not memorable somehow or too meandering... Yet, it is part of the fun to re-explore them now and again to see if the perceptions change...

Maybe i should go to the RVW thread and open a can of worms and ask for an idiosyncratic cycle that differs completely from Handley and Davis  :laugh: >:D

In response to JBS :

Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2019, 02:14:18 PM
That's a good halfway point  ;D

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 22, 2019, 02:19:47 PM
The idiosyncratic cycle is almost universally agreed to be Haitink on Warner (EMI). Not "British" enough, or something to that effect. It is less encumbered by tradition allowing Haitink to re-think the works. It was the first cycle I listened to and it gave me my initial interest in V-W.

Here is my crib sheet

1. Singing
2. Most like a conventional symphony/symphonic poem
3. Spiritual
4. Harsh
5. New-agey
6. Intense
7. Wind machine
8. Idiosyncratic
9. Idiosyncratic Volume II

My general impression is that V-W starts out earnest in the early symphonies, and towards the end it is more and more that he is toying with the orchestra to see what charming effects he can create. You might find that Haitink de-meanderifies the later works to some extent, which may be bad or good, depending on your viewpoint.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on February 22, 2019, 02:31:46 PM
Love the RVW conversation here; I feel like most of the comments... and I've often felt that the amount of Vaughan-Williams Symphony Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-survey-of-vaughan-williams-symphony.html) I own (8) is a direct result not of my love but impotent struggle to understand the composer... so that my perception of how great I SHOULD find him and how great I actually find him may  be less at odds with each other.

Quote from: Ken B on February 22, 2019, 02:57:56 PM
I like 5 and 4 the most. Especially 5. Pretty common opinion I think. 2 I also like quite a lot, but the others less so. I do like 3 and 6 but I don't have a strong sense of personality from them. Each Mozart Concerto is like a person, distinct. These lack that. The others not so much. 7 is goodish film music. 8 has interesting passages. 9 I have no recollection of despite having heard often. 1 is bad music.


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 23, 2019, 12:01:37 AM
The thing about No.6 as has been said before is that it combines elements of the violence of No.4 with the spiritual qualities of No.5 thus creating a most disturbing synthesis which I fine riveting. I was also interested in Stephen Johnston's suggestion that the repeating two notes at the end of the symphony are like an unresolved 'amen' and of course the symphony ends on the 'wrong' note, drifting into nothingness.....

I was delighted to be watching the quiz show 'University Challenge' yesterday on catch-up and the music question featured musical extracts written by composers who had more or less lost their hearing. They played an extract from Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony which, unsurprisingly none of the young students knew - although I would have done at their age  0:) ( I told you my wife said I am a 'show-off'  8)). I think that No.9 is my other favourite VW symphony. It has a granitic, monolithic quality to it and those looming defiant chords at the end are extraordinary.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 23, 2019, 01:08:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 23, 2019, 12:01:37 AM
The thing about No.6 as has been said before is that it combines elements of the violence of No.4 with the spiritual qualities of No.5 thus creating a most disturbing synthesis which I fine riveting. I was also interested in Stephen Johnston's suggestion that the repeating two notes at the end of the symphony are like an unresolved 'amen' and of course the symphony ends on the 'wrong' note, drifting into nothingness.....

I was delighted to be watching the quiz show 'University Challenge' yesterday on catch-up and the music question featured musical extracts written by composers who had more or less lost their hearing. They played an extract from Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony which, unsurprisingly none of the young students knew - although I would have done at their age  0:) ( I told you my wife said I am a 'show-off'  8)). I think that No.9 is my other favourite VW symphony. It has a granitic, monolithic quality to it and those looming defiant chords at the end are extraordinary.

Kicking myself at not recognising the Fauré piece.

A bit left field but the 8th Symphony is so untypical of RVW that it may appeal to a listener not into the composer. I find it an intriguing work. I do not find the symphonies similar at all. In fact there is one for every mood.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on February 23, 2019, 02:58:10 AM
Quote from: Papy OliMaybe I have a problem with the music itself  :blank: I listened to the 9th then to Job on the same CD and it still just merges in an overall "sameness", a few soaring moments here and there, all merging together. I'll revisit the other symphonies in the Davis' and Handley's in any case and see how it goes with the rest.

Plunging into RVW from the direction of the 9th Symphony and Job is just ... perverse  unfortunate.


Quote from: vandermolen on February 23, 2019, 12:01:37 AM
I was delighted to be watching the quiz show 'University Challenge' yesterday on catch-up and the music question featured musical extracts written by composers who had more or less lost their hearing. They played an extract from Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony which, unsurprisingly none of the young students knew - although I would have done at their age  0:) ( I told you my wife said I am a 'show-off'  8)). I think that No.9 is my other favourite VW symphony. It has a granitic, monolithic quality to it and those looming defiant chords at the end are extraordinary.

I spotted it as VW from the style and colour and the 9th because it was unfamiliar (I never listen to the 9th) - but it was news to me about his hearing loss.  Comical in the extreme that the students didn't spot Beethoven though!  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 23, 2019, 03:49:22 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 23, 2019, 02:58:10 AM
Plunging into RVW from the direction of the 9th Symphony and Job is just ... perverse  unfortunate.

;D I've survived.

Reading the early pages of this thread, i noticed a mention that Bernstein did a 4th, which incidentally I have in his Sony symphony box, but with no recollection at all. That will be in the listening queue today.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 23, 2019, 08:45:46 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 23, 2019, 01:08:52 AM
Kicking myself at not recognising the Fauré piece.

A bit left field but the 8th Symphony is so untypical of RVW that it may appeal to a listener not into the composer. I find it an intriguing work. I do not find the symphonies similar at all. In fact there is one for every mood.

I didn't get the Faure either although I recognised that it sounded like his 'Pavane'. I also like Vaughan Williams's Symphony 8 with its somewhat magical opening movement - especially in Previn's recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 23, 2019, 08:46:30 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 23, 2019, 03:49:22 AM
;D I've survived.

Reading the early pages of this thread, i noticed a mention that Bernstein did a 4th, which incidentally I have in his Sony symphony box, but with no recollection at all. That will be in the listening queue today.

Bernstein's 4th is excellent IMHO. So is the earlier Mitropolous version which I prefer to the composer's own recording. Berglund is best of all I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 23, 2019, 11:42:35 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 23, 2019, 08:46:30 AM
Bernstein's 4th is excellent IMHO. So is the earlier Mitropolous version which I prefer to the composer's own recording. Berglund is best of all I think.

Have you heard Berglund's 6th? I find his Sibelius (Bournemouth) a bit stodgy but the RVW 6th makes me wish he recorded more.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 24, 2019, 02:45:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 23, 2019, 08:46:30 AM
Bernstein's 4th is excellent IMHO.

I enjoyed the last 2 movements but it felt long winded to get to it  :-[
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 24, 2019, 12:19:41 PM
Quote from: Irons on February 23, 2019, 01:08:52 AM
A bit left field but the 8th Symphony is so untypical of RVW that it may appeal to a listener not into the composer. I find it an intriguing work. I do not find the symphonies similar at all. In fact there is one for every mood.

I second this opinion. The 8th is quite different than any of his other symphonies and, I think, quite magical.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 24, 2019, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 24, 2019, 02:45:47 AM
I enjoyed the last 2 movements but it felt long winded to get to it  :-[

I almost think I should load my bazooka  ;) The Fourth is the symphony that fired my interest in RVW. But I'll refrain from blasting you because, well, the last two movements are the ones that hooked me.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 24, 2019, 01:16:56 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2019, 11:41:03 PM
If nobody minds, I have copied the conversation on RVW from the WAYLTN thread back here if you fancy continuing it here:

[snipped]

Interesting to read the give-and-take on that thread. I've always felt each VW symphony was distinctive, and it would be hard to confuse one with any other. That's because each one, as they follow in sequence, sounds effectively like a repudiation of the previous one.

However, another way to look at it would be to group them by similarity. Thus I find 4 and 6 to be similar, also 3 and 5, and 1 and 7. I could see confusing 4 with 6, but certainly not either with 3 or 5. And so on. The oddballs are the last two symphonies, which don't seem to fit into my schema at all. 8 sounds like a rewrite of Hindemith's Symphonia Serena, while 9 is still a puzzler, though I enjoy hearing it from time to time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 25, 2019, 02:17:51 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 23, 2019, 11:42:35 PM
Have you heard Berglund's 6th? I find his Sibelius (Bournemouth) a bit stodgy but the RVW 6th makes me wish he recorded more.
Indeed I have! I have the LP and the later HMV and EMI CD releases in different permutations. I think that it is one of the few successful performances of Symphony 6 - very Sibelian I think. I like his Sibelius Bournemoth Kullervo Symphony and Symphony 3 and his Tapiola with the New Philharmonia.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 25, 2019, 02:19:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 24, 2019, 12:19:41 PM
I second this opinion. The 8th is quite different than any of his other symphonies and, I think, quite magical.

Sarge
I agree with the 'magical' description - I especially feel this in the way that Previn's performance opens.

I've just repeated myself - never mind.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 25, 2019, 05:31:19 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 24, 2019, 12:23:01 PM
I almost think I should load my bazooka  ;) The Fourth is the symphony that fired my interest in RVW. But I'll refrain from blasting you because, well, the last two movements are the ones that hooked me.

Sarge

Hey Sarge, thank you for the narrow escape !! 2 down, 7 symphonies to go  ;D  (Glad to see you back posting too  :) )





Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 25, 2019, 05:35:32 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 24, 2019, 01:16:56 PM
Interesting to read the give-and-take on that thread. I've always felt each VW symphony was distinctive, and it would be hard to confuse one with any other. That's because each one, as they follow in sequence, sounds effectively like a repudiation of the previous one.

However, another way to look at it would be to group them by similarity. Thus I find 4 and 6 to be similar, also 3 and 5, and 1 and 7. I could see confusing 4 with 6, but certainly not either with 3 or 5. And so on. The oddballs are the last two symphonies, which don't seem to fit into my schema at all. 8 sounds like a rewrite of Hindemith's Symphonia Serena, while 9 is still a puzzler, though I enjoy hearing it from time to time.

Hi Torso,

Thank you for your perspective and the pairing ups above, I'll dig up the 6th to see how it goes after half-4th then 8)

You haven't mentioned the 2nd, my favourite - another oddball for you ?



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 25, 2019, 06:43:55 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 25, 2019, 05:35:32 AM

You haven't mentioned the 2nd, my favourite - another oddball for you ?

Hard to say. On the one hand it's one of the "geographical" symphonies, like 1, 3 and 7. On the other hand, it's not about nature. It was the first VW symphony I heard and it got me interested in him, but it's not one of my favorites.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 25, 2019, 06:45:00 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 24, 2019, 01:16:56 PM
Interesting to read the give-and-take on that thread. I've always felt each VW symphony was distinctive, and it would be hard to confuse one with any other. That's because each one, as they follow in sequence, sounds effectively like a repudiation of the previous one.

However, another way to look at it would be to group them by similarity. Thus I find 4 and 6 to be similar, also 3 and 5, and 1 and 7. I could see confusing 4 with 6, but certainly not either with 3 or 5. And so on. The oddballs are the last two symphonies, which don't seem to fit into my schema at all. 8 sounds like a rewrite of Hindemith's Symphonia Serena, while 9 is still a puzzler, though I enjoy hearing it from time to time.

4 and 6 as the most turbulent ones are often bracketed together. 3 and 5 also as the most 'pastoral'. I'd place 2 and 7 together as both 'programme' symphonies in a way and not choral like A Sea Symphony. I think that 6 and 9 go well together as the most searching and existential of the lot, also in the same key. Just my random thoughts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 25, 2019, 07:30:26 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 25, 2019, 06:45:00 AM
4 and 6 as the most turbulent ones are often bracketed together. 3 and 5 also as the most 'pastoral'. I'd place 2 and 7 together as both 'programme' symphonies in a way and not choral like A Sea Symphony. I think that 6 and 9 go well together as the most searching and existential of the lot, also in the same key. Just my random thoughts.

That is a thought, the 2 and 7 are both programme symphonies. Obvious, but never crossed my mind. :o 3 does interlock with 5 and it could also be twinned with 6 as although completely different they are both "war" symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 25, 2019, 08:08:03 AM
I have just finished listening to the 6th (Davis) and I have put the finger on at least one key thing that bugs me with the RVW symphonies: As much as I am entirely at ease with a slow development and a layered build-up within a movement, there is a constant zig-zagging of the notes, leaving me with a feeling akin to musical seasickness and loss of direction  :-[ 0:). The Moderato and the Epilogue are symptomatic of that for me .  And yet I enjoyed, the Allegro and Scherzo.

Sorry i can't explain this in more technical terms  :blank:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 25, 2019, 08:09:26 AM
Probably the zig-zagging is what I like. I will have to listen to the 6th again, if I can find time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 25, 2019, 10:11:00 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 25, 2019, 07:30:26 AM
That is a thought, the 2 and 7 are both programme symphonies. Obvious, but never crossed my mind. :o 3 does interlock with 5 and it could also be twinned with 6 as although completely different they are both "war" symphonies.
Good point about 3 and 6 too (coupled together on Naxos).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 02, 2019, 12:30:45 AM
RIP Andre Previn, whose VW symphony recordings set a standard which few surpass.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 02, 2019, 02:31:58 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 02, 2019, 12:30:45 AM
RIP Andre Previn, whose VW symphony recordings set a standard which few surpass.

This is what the 1982 Penguin Guide had to say of the LP box set -

Previn recorded the Vaughan Williams symphonies over a five-year span from 1968 to 1972, and his achievement in this repertoire represented a peak in his recording career at that time. Here the nine symphonies minus the couplings have been neatly compressed on to seven discs. The most striking performances are those which were recorded last, Nos. 2,3 and 5, for there Previn achieves an extra depth of understanding, and extra intensity, whether in the purity of pianissimo or the outpouring of emotional resolution. For the rest there is only one performance that can be counted at all disappointing, and that of the symphony one might have expected Previn to interpret best, the taught and dramatic Fourth. Even that is an impressive account, if less intense of the rest. Otherwise the great landscape of the whole cycle is presented with richness and detail in totally refreshing interpretations, brilliantly recorded.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 02, 2019, 08:06:50 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 02, 2019, 02:31:58 AM
This is what the 1982 Penguin Guide had to say of the LP box set -

Previn recorded the Vaughan Williams symphonies over a five-year span from 1968 to 1972, and his achievement in this repertoire represented a peak in his recording career at that time. Here the nine symphonies minus the couplings have been neatly compressed on to seven discs. The most striking performances are those which were recorded last, Nos. 2,3 and 5, for there Previn achieves an extra depth of understanding, and extra intensity, whether in the purity of pianissimo or the outpouring of emotional resolution. For the rest there is only one performance that can be counted at all disappointing, and that of the symphony one might have expected Previn to interpret best, the taught and dramatic Fourth. Even that is an impressive account, if less intense of the rest. Otherwise the great landscape of the whole cycle is presented with richness and detail in totally refreshing interpretations, brilliantly recorded.
Previn was rightly very proud of his Vaughan Williams symphony cycle. I'd add Symphony 8 to 2,3 and 5 as the best ones.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 02, 2019, 08:20:19 AM
Previn's Fourth (on LP) was the very first recording of a VW symphony that I bought and I have always enjoyed it. It wasn't until some time after that I read the rather tepid review of it in Gramophone, an assessment I have never agreed with.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 02, 2019, 12:47:16 PM
Quote from: Biffo on March 02, 2019, 08:20:19 AM
Previn's Fourth (on LP) was the very first recording of a VW symphony that I bought and I have always enjoyed it. It wasn't until some time after that I read the rather tepid review of it in Gramophone, an assessment I have never agreed with.

I wasn't so keen on Previn's No.6 originally, having read critical reviews, but now appreciate it much more.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 02, 2019, 02:00:49 PM
I can't recommend this disc highly enough. Epithalamion is hardly known but I consider it one of Vaughan Williams's finest works and ideal late-night listening. Gentle, reflective, soulful and poignant music:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 02, 2019, 03:38:39 PM
Amazes me that people are so influenced by reviews. If you want the Karajan record, don't read the review by the Karajan-hater. Ditto for Solti, Haitink, Previn, Boulez, Boult, Rattle, Abbado, Szell, Ormandy,...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 02, 2019, 04:03:38 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 02, 2019, 03:38:39 PM
Surprises me that people are so influenced by reviews. If you want the Karajan record, don't read the review by the Karajan-hater. Ditto for Solti, Haitink, Previn, Boulez, Boult, Rattle, Abbado, Szell, Ormandy,...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 03, 2019, 12:03:08 AM
I think that with the Previn VW cycle there was a general consensus that 4 and 6 were not quite up to the standard of some of the others. Even admirers of Previn tended to take this view - always commenting that these were still very good performances. It was an Amazon reviewer who challenged this view of No.6, which made me revisit it and form a much higher opinion of the recording - maybe I'll give it a spin later!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 03, 2019, 02:12:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 03, 2019, 12:03:08 AM
I think that with the Previn VW cycle there was a general consensus that 4 and 6 were not quite up to the standard of some of the others. Even admirers of Previn tended to take this view - always commenting that these were still very good performances. It was an Amazon reviewer who challenged this view of No.6, which made me revisit it and form a much higher opinion of the recording - maybe I'll give it a spin later!

Totally irrelevant to this discussion in 2019 but an important factor when the review I quoted was written, and indeed for me as a listener today, or anybody who wishes to listen to this set on LP.

(https://i.imgur.com/DvV6Soi.jpg) (https://img.discogs.com/c0bKqEn6-yYKmlSgiw4xKVVCCLU=/fit-in/518x520/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2511559-1297998633.jpeg.jpg)

It was an error of judgment by RCA to squeeze the 6th onto a single LP side allowing the second side for the 8th. The 8th is fine - I agree with vandermolen that Previn's recording is outstanding, preferable to Sir Adrian IMO. Due to limitations with the LP format to use a single side with such a dynamic work as the 6th leads to compromises. The Boult 6th which places the 4th movement on side two possess a shattering first movement whereas Previn sounds slightly curtailed. As far as the LP format is concerned that Boult's 6th is superior to Previn has more to do with the engineering then the performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 03, 2019, 03:58:15 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 03, 2019, 02:12:05 AM
Totally irrelevant to this discussion in 2019 but an important factor when the review I quoted was written, and indeed for me as a listener today, or anybody who wishes to listen to this set on LP.

(https://i.imgur.com/DvV6Soi.jpg) (https://img.discogs.com/c0bKqEn6-yYKmlSgiw4xKVVCCLU=/fit-in/518x520/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2511559-1297998633.jpeg.jpg)

It was an error of judgment by RCA to squeeze the 6th onto a single LP side allowing the second side for the 8th. The 8th is fine - I agree with vandermolen that Previn's recording is outstanding, preferable to Sir Adrian IMO. Due to limitations with the LP format to use a single side with such a dynamic work as the 6th leads to compromises. The Boult 6th which places the 4th movement on side two possess a shattering first movement whereas Previn sounds slightly curtailed. As far as the LP format is concerned that Boult's 6th is superior to Previn has more to do with the engineering then the performance.
Very interesting point. I remember in my initial, revelatory encounter with the work, on that fine old Decca Eclipse LP, the fourth movement was on side 2 with the composer's speech of thanks to Boult and the LPO - this remains my favourite performance of the work on disc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 03, 2019, 10:10:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 03, 2019, 03:58:15 AM
Very interesting point. I remember in my initial, revelatory encounter with the work, on that fine old Decca Eclipse LP, the fourth movement was on side 2 with the composer's speech of thanks to Boult and the LPO - this remains my favourite performance of the work on disc.

That is another Wilkinson recording from the Kingsway Hall (1953) produced by John Culshaw no less. I have the original LXT which is without a coupling at all. You mentioned the Boult 6th from 1949/1950 recently - the one which includes the original (alternative) Scherzo - how do you think that recording compares? It has been described (not by music critics!) as the most vital Boult 6th of them all. I have the composer's speech, I thought it was attached to the Everest 9th, but on checking I'm mistaken. I do have it somewhere.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 03, 2019, 10:17:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 02, 2019, 02:00:49 PM
I can't recommend this disc highly enough. Epithalamion is hardly known but I consider it one of Vaughan Williams's finest works and ideal late-night listening. Gentle, reflective, soulful and poignant music:
(//)
It is; and yet I prefer the even more 'exalted', 'mystical' original version, The Bridal day, that I listened to again a couple of days ago during my ski vacation in the Giant Mountains. I described if before as the missing link between Flos Campi and An Oxford Elegy.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 03, 2019, 10:28:54 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 03, 2019, 10:10:00 AM
That is another Wilkinson recording from the Kingsway Hall (1953) produced by John Culshaw no less. I have the original LXT which is without a coupling at all. You mentioned the Boult 6th from 1949/1950 recently - the one which includes the original (alternative) Scherzo - how do you think that recording compares? It has been described (not by music critics!) as the most vital Boult 6th of them all. I have the composer's speech, I thought it was attached to the Everest 9th, but on checking I'm mistaken. I do have it somewhere.....
The Eclipse disc (LPO with VW in the studio) is very special to me. One day aged about 16/17 I drifted into WH Smith in the Earl's Court Road, which is where I then lived (not in WH Smith obviously although I did have a Saturday job there). My older (by seven years) brother was and is a keen classical music fan (Bruckner/Brahms) and I'd asked him about Vaughan Williams. He said that he was a bit like an English Copland (whose Third Symphony I'd already latched on to). On this basis I decided to buy VW Symphony No.6, LPO Boult which I found on the shelves. I was intrigued because the LP included 'A speech from the composer'. Basically, I never looked back and no disc has ever had such an impact on me. The earlier LSO recording (1949 I think) is terrific and, as you say, includes the original scherzo. However, for emotional as much as musical reasons my loyalty and attachment is to that LPO performance. The Everest recording of Symphony 9 included a speech by Boult in tribute to Vaughan Williams who had died overnight and who had been intending to attend the recording. Not all Everest versions included the speech 'To our American friends...' It's curious that the Ninth was not recorded by Decca and is possibly indicative of the short-lived reaction against Vaughan Williams's music in the late 1950s up until the revived interest at the time of the VW Centenary in 1972, which is such a vivid musical memory from my formative years. My first awareness of the great Andre Previn dates from this time, although I must have been aware of the Morecambe and Wise sketch in 1971.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 03, 2019, 10:32:01 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 03, 2019, 10:17:38 AM
It is; and yet I prefer the even more 'exalted', 'mystical' original version, The Bridal day, that I listened to again a couple of days ago during my ski vacation in the Giant Mountains. I described if before as the missing link between Flos Campi and An Oxford Elegy.
Yes, must listen to it again myself although its that EMI recording which I tend to drift back to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 03, 2019, 12:12:13 PM
Lately I am amazed by the 5th Symphony. I have always thought that work is about as interesting as watching cows grazing on a meadow so to speak. But repeated listening reveal a work that is expressively intense in its own terms. The dynamics rarely rise above a mezzo-forte and the harmony seems deceptively simple but the lyrical, modal. and soaring lines are like tidal waves. I especially enjoy this beautiful recording by Manze:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/913ibyGbPRL._SS500_.jpg)

I am always amazed at the playing and versatility of the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic, a very underrated orchestra that is equally versatile in playing Beethoven, to Shostakovich and Vaughan Williams,
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 03, 2019, 04:12:40 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 03, 2019, 12:12:13 PM
Lately I am amazed by the 5th Symphony. I have always thought that work is about as interesting as watching cows grazing on a meadow so to speak. But repeated listening reveal a work that is expressively intense in its own terms. The dynamics rarely rise above a mezzo-forte and the harmony seems deceptively simple but the lyrical, modal. and soaring lines are like tidal waves. I especially enjoy this beautiful recording by Manze:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/913ibyGbPRL._SS500_.jpg)

I am always amazed at the playing and versatility of the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic, a very underrated orchestra that is equally versatile in playing Beethoven, to Shostakovitch and Vaughan Williams,

I haven't heard the Manze recording but consider the fifth a masterpiece.  One of the finest 20th century symphonies and very personal and unique.  My favorites are Previn and Boult and I find them so perfect that it leaves me with little desire to hear other interpretations as I always find them somewhat disappointing in comparison. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 03, 2019, 04:22:29 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 03, 2019, 04:12:40 PM
I haven't heard the Manze recording but consider the fifth a masterpiece.  One of the finest 20th century symphonies and very personal and unique.  My favorites are Previn and Boult and I find them so perfect that it leaves me with little desire to hear other interpretations as I always find them somewhat disappointing in comparison.
The youtube recording with Manze and the BBC Scottish Orchestra is VERY similar to the RLPO recording on cd but the RLPO plays with more color and character in my opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9YoEETzYsE


I think Manze is able to achieve great contrast in what is predominantly a very quiet work. He also keeps it moving which also helps. Too bad you almost never hear this work in the States as most audience members tend to prefer the big loud stuff like Mahler, Bruckner, Shostakovich, etc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 04, 2019, 12:31:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 03, 2019, 10:28:54 AM
The Eclipse disc (LPO with VW in the studio) is very special to me. One day aged about 16/17 I drifted into WH Smith in the Earl's Court Road, which is where I then lived (not in WH Smith obviously although I did have a Saturday job there). My older (by seven years) brother was and is a keen classical music fan (Bruckner/Brahms) and I'd asked him about Vaughan Williams. He said that he was a bit like an English Copland (whose Third Symphony I'd already latched on to). On this basis I decided to buy VW Symphony No.6, LPO Boult which I found on the shelves. I was intrigued because the LP included 'A speech from the composer'. Basically, I never looked back and no disc has ever had such an impact on me. The earlier LSO recording (1949 I think) is terrific and, as you say, includes the original scherzo. However, for emotional as much as musical reasons my loyalty and attachment is to that LPO performance. The Everest recording of Symphony 9 included a speech by Boult in tribute to Vaughan Williams who had died overnight and who had been intending to attend the recording. Not all Everest versions included the speech 'To our American friends...' It's curious that the Ninth was not recorded by Decca and is possibly indicative of the short-lived reaction against Vaughan Williams's music in the late 1950s up until the revived interest at the time of the VW Centenary in 1972, which is such a vivid musical memory from my formative years. My first awareness of the great Andre Previn dates from this time, although I must have been aware of the Morecambe and Wise sketch in 1971.

Our paths may have crossed! For 36 years I worked in the North End Road (Olympia end). Small world. Thanks for clearing up the speech query. I must have the American one attached to the Everest 9th LP but not listed on the back cover. I have never worked out how Everest came to record the 9th and not Decca. Your theory is as good as any. To confuse matters further, Decca recorded 1 - 7 in mono and the 8th in stereo.

Stravinsky recorded a speech for his recording of Rite. He goes on a bit and CBS chose to place it before his performance on record which in my view is a mistake.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 04, 2019, 01:05:34 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 03, 2019, 04:12:40 PM
I haven't heard the Manze recording but consider the fifth a masterpiece.  One of the finest 20th century symphonies and very personal and unique.  My favorites are Previn and Boult and I find them so perfect that it leaves me with little desire to hear other interpretations as I always find them somewhat disappointing in comparison.

Previn and Boult will always be the first port of call in all nine symphonies. I agree there is little point looking elsewhere, but at the same time I feel it a mistake to completely ignore Barbirolli, especially in the 5th. Not as the only version, but for the beautiful phrasing Sir John extracts from the Philharmonia this recording is worthy of a listen.

(https://img.discogs.com/Js4LFrjnEFGU_iuMwrx5n_raNqY=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-8038764-1453964303-5499.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 04, 2019, 01:33:10 AM
Barbirolli's RVW symphonies are more than just 'worthy of a listen'. He gave the premiere of the Sinfonia antartica though sonically his mono recording has been surpassed by various stereo versions. The 8th was dedicated to Barbirolli and he conducted it with great distinction His recordings of the 2nd and 5th symphonies are my all time favourites though Boult (in 2 and 5) and Previn (in 5) run him very close.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 04, 2019, 03:29:40 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 04, 2019, 12:31:08 AM
Our paths may have crossed! For 36 years I worked in the North End Road (Olympia end). Small world. Thanks for clearing up the speech query. I must have the American one attached to the Everest 9th LP but not listed on the back cover. I have never worked out how Everest came to record the 9th and not Decca. Your theory is as good as any. To confuse matters further, Decca recorded 1 - 7 in mono and the 8th in stereo.

Stravinsky recorded a speech for his recording of Rite. He goes on a bit and CBS chose to place it before his performance on record which in my view is a mistake.
I recall being constantly dragged off by my parents to help with the weekly food shop in Sainsbury's (I think) in the North End Road. Yes, small world indeed. I have a CD of early recordings of Bax's music which features a radio talk by the great man. I'm interested how these composers of dark, towering symphonies, like Bax and Shostakovich had quite high-pitched squeaky voices.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 04, 2019, 03:31:33 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 04, 2019, 01:05:34 AM
Previn and Boult will always be the first port of call in all nine symphonies. I agree there is little point looking elsewhere, but at the same time I feel it a mistake to completely ignore Barbirolli, especially in the 5th. Not as the only version, but for the beautiful phrasing Sir John extracts from the Philharmonia this recording is worthy of a listen.

(https://img.discogs.com/Js4LFrjnEFGU_iuMwrx5n_raNqY=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-8038764-1453964303-5499.jpeg.jpg)
This is my favourite version, preferable IMO to Boult and Previn, great as those recordings are.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 04, 2019, 03:32:50 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 04, 2019, 01:33:10 AM
Barbirolli's RVW symphonies are more than just 'worthy of a listen'. He gave the premiere of the Sinfonia antartica though sonically his mono recording has been surpassed by various stereo versions. The 8th was dedicated to Barbirolli and he conducted it with great distinction His recordings of the 2nd and 5th symphonies are my all time favourites though Boult (in 2 and 5) and Previn (in 5) run him very close.
His recording of Symphony 6 with the Bavarian RSO is also very good:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 04, 2019, 05:28:50 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 03, 2019, 02:12:05 AM
It was an error of judgment by RCA to squeeze the 6th onto a single LP side allowing the second side for the 8th.

Not an error of judgement in marketing terms - I lapped up the opportunity to acquire two new-to-me VW symphonies by a conductor I admired, on one LP ...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 04, 2019, 12:39:10 PM
Quote from: MishaK on April 12, 2007, 09:38:15 AM
Leppard (Indianapolis SO) has a very fine recording with an alternative narration of excerpts from Scott's diaries, which I think works better. Allegedly, Leppard discussed this idea with RVW personally.

The Leppard recording is excellent both technically and as a performance.  I like the movement superscriptions (even if they were never meant to be heard) and as such I like the idea behind the Leppard performance very much - the extended excerpts from the Scott diaries are well chosen and very well read.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 20, 2019, 09:55:05 AM
I thought that this was an excellent performance of the Tallis Fantasia and am very pleased to have discovered it. It was recorded in the 'Grieghallen, Bergen' in 1963 and is therefore by far the most recent recording on the CD:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on March 22, 2019, 04:07:37 PM
I'm shamefully unfamiliar with Vaughan Williams' music. The nine symphonies remain a mystery to me - but that's going to change now! Starting with A Sea Symphony tonight (with Boult and the LPO) I'm going to go through them all in many different recordings. Let's see what happens!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 22, 2019, 04:48:08 PM
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on March 22, 2019, 04:07:37 PM
I'm shamefully unfamiliar with Vaughan Williams' music. The nine symphonies remain a mystery to me - but that's going to change now! Starting with A Sea Symphony tonight (with Boult and the LPO) I'm going to go through them all in many different recordings. Let's see what happens!

What a great attitude you have!  I am curious to hear of your journey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2019, 06:44:12 PM
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on March 22, 2019, 04:07:37 PM
I'm shamefully unfamiliar with Vaughan Williams' music. The nine symphonies remain a mystery to me - but that's going to change now! Starting with A Sea Symphony tonight (with Boult and the LPO) I'm going to go through them all in many different recordings. Let's see what happens!

I hope you enjoy the journey. Vaughan Williams is a composer I've kind of cooled on right now, but I do still consider him the foremost English composer of not only his own time, but of all-time. I know this is a bold opinion, but I do truly feel there's no other composer from England that has not only created a virtual sound-world unlike any other, but has touched many listeners' hearts in the process. Sorry, but Elgar, Holst, or Britten have nothing on RVW. He was a master.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 23, 2019, 12:58:45 AM
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on March 22, 2019, 04:07:37 PM
I'm shamefully unfamiliar with Vaughan Williams' music. The nine symphonies remain a mystery to me - but that's going to change now! Starting with A Sea Symphony tonight (with Boult and the LPO) I'm going to go through them all in many different recordings. Let's see what happens!

Others may not agree but even allowing for the fact that "one" is a good place to start, I actually think it not with the RVW symphonies. My recommendation would be to set out with two symphonies which show both sides of him, the 5th and 6th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 23, 2019, 07:48:41 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 22, 2019, 04:48:08 PM
What a great attitude you have!  I am curious to hear of your journey.
+1 although I'd probably start with No.5
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 23, 2019, 08:02:30 AM
I started with No 4 (LSO/Previn) but that was just chance, it was there in the record shop. Next No 7, borrowed from a record library.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 23, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 23, 2019, 07:48:41 AM
+1 although I'd probably start with No.5

Not me!  I'd definitely suggest like all great symphonists (Mahler, Prokofiev, Shostakovitch, Sibelius, Beethoven) go in order.  They are evolving and the symphonies are semi-autobiographical.  PLEASE go in order.   Just imagine if someone suggest starting with Sibelius 4 or Mahler 6 or Shosti 5 or something. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 23, 2019, 06:29:48 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 22, 2019, 06:44:12 PM
I hope you enjoy the journey. Vaughan Williams is a composer I've kind of cooled on right now, but I do still consider him the foremost English composer of not only his own time, but of all-time. I know this is a bold opinion, but I do truly feel there's no other composer from England that has not only created a virtual sound-world unlike any other, but has touched many listeners' hearts in the process. Sorry, but Elgar, Holst, or Britten have nothing on RVW. He was a master.
What are we now ranking composers like baseball players?

I think 2, 4, 5, and 6 are all good places to start. Number 5 has to be one of the great unheralded works of the 20th century. For a long time I really disliked this work, but that was mainly the recording I had (Boult, forget what year) is pretty egregious, just a non-event characterized with nothing more than a perfunctory run-through.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 24, 2019, 03:17:54 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 23, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
Not me!  I'd definitely suggest like all great symphonists (Mahler, Prokofiev, Shostakovitch, Sibelius, Beethoven) go in order.  They are evolving and the symphonies are semi-autobiographical.  PLEASE go in order.   Just imagine if someone suggest starting with Sibelius 4 or Mahler 6 or Shosti 5 or something.
Fair enough, although I'm not sure that No.1 is the best place to start with Vaughan Williams. I started collecting his music in about 1971 but did not 'get' A Sea Symphony until Haitink's CD appeared decades later. If anything A London Symphony might be the best place to start - after all it was the composer's favourite of his first eight at least.

I started with No.6 which is his greatest IMO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on March 24, 2019, 05:38:27 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 23, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
Not me!  I'd definitely suggest like all great symphonists (Mahler, Prokofiev, Shostakovitch, Sibelius, Beethoven) go in order.  They are evolving and the symphonies are semi-autobiographical.  PLEASE go in order.   Just imagine if someone suggest starting with Sibelius 4 or Mahler 6 or Shosti 5 or something.

+1

Suggesting a specific entry point implies you either do not trust the listener (not experienced enough, migh get the wrong impression, etc) or the composer (his works are uneven).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2019, 06:08:58 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 23, 2019, 08:02:30 AM
I started with No 4 (LSO/Previn) but that was just chance, it was there in the record shop. Next No 7, borrowed from a record library.

4 was my entry point too: Lenny played parts of it in a televised Young People's concert; then a short time later I heard the whole symphony on the radio (WCLV Cleveland). Then I bought 8 and 2 conducted by Barbirolli. So my introduction to the composer was all over the expressive map.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 24, 2019, 06:29:32 AM
FYIW, I started with this disc:

(https://img.discogs.com/gyF8UN3icaYsbgbI7isuvSY2iXE=/fit-in/600x597/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2884488-1352497952-3060.jpeg.jpg)

I tackled the symphonies next (the Boult set on EMI to be exact) and I went in order from A Sea Symphony through Symphony No. 9. I'll be honest, at this particular point, I was most impressed with the Sea Symphony, but I was still a novice to RVW's sound-world, but now I wouldn't even rate this symphony amongst my favorites. It's always interesting how tastes can change over time. I don't listen to his music much nowadays, but I'd say my favorite is a toss-up between the 5th and 6th as I feel both of these symphonies are like a yin and yang. The 5th is gorgeous in its' lyricism and sheer beauty while the 6th is angry, discordant, and bleak (esp. in the last movement).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 24, 2019, 06:31:06 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 23, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
Not me!  I'd definitely suggest like all great symphonists (Mahler, Prokofiev, Shostakovitch, Sibelius, Beethoven) go in order.  They are evolving and the symphonies are semi-autobiographical.  PLEASE go in order.   Just imagine if someone suggest starting with Sibelius 4 or Mahler 6 or Shosti 5 or something.

I have never been introduced to any symphonist by listening to all of their works in order. In each case, going all the way back to Beethoven, I've started with a symphony which I felt intrigued by or which attracted my attention and filled out the cycle later. There is plenty of time to follow the composers development later, if I care to follow the composers development.

Quote from: André on March 24, 2019, 05:38:27 AM
+1

Suggesting a specific entry point implies you either do not trust the listener (not experienced enough, migh get the wrong impression, etc) or the composer (his works are uneven).

It is not a matter of trust. Listening for the first time to a composer is a decision point, should more time be to devoted to listening to this composer? Sometimes the answer is no. Why not start with a work which is widely regarded as among his or her best works?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 24, 2019, 12:21:44 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 24, 2019, 06:08:58 AM
So my introduction to the composer was all over the expressive map.

Mine too. I started with 2 and 4 (Previn, both on rather shrill RCA Gold LPs). I liked 2 right away, but 4 struck me as a dense unfriendly wall of sound. It's now my favorite VW symphony, and one of my favorite 20th century symphonies by anyone.

I think the next one I explored was the 6th, and I did so because Sting (yes, that Sting) said it was his favorite piece of classical music. (I read it in Time magazine. This was 1983, and Synchronicity was the album of the year.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 24, 2019, 01:01:07 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 24, 2019, 12:21:44 PM
Mine too. I started with 2 and 4 (Previn, both on rather shrill RCA Gold LPs). I liked 2 right away, but 4 struck me as a dense unfriendly wall of sound. It's now my favorite VW symphony, and one of my favorite 20th century symphonies by anyone.

I think the next one I explored was the 6th, and I did so because Sting (yes, that Sting) said it was his favorite piece of classical music. (I read it in Time magazine. This was 1983, and Synchronicity was the album of the year.)
Interesting about Sting - never heard that before. Apparently Frank Sinatra liked the music of Vaughan Williams as well. Referring back to John's (MI's) point, Vaughan Williams told the young Arthur Butterworth, who was a great VW enthusiast, that if his music did not mean so much to him in the future he must not, in any way, feel that this is being disloyal.

The recent death of Andre Previn encourages me to re-investigate his Vaughan Williams cycle with the LSO.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 24, 2019, 07:08:48 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 23, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
Not me!  I'd definitely suggest like all great symphonists (Mahler, Prokofiev, Shostakovitch, Sibelius, Beethoven) go in order.  They are evolving and the symphonies are semi-autobiographical.  PLEASE go in order.   Just imagine if someone suggest starting with Sibelius 4 or Mahler 6 or Shosti 5 or something.
I am not going to pick on Sibelius and Mahler, but for DSCH if you start from the beginning you will have a really hard time stomaching #2 and #3.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on March 24, 2019, 07:43:59 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 24, 2019, 07:08:48 PM
I am not going to pick on Sibelius and Mahler, but for DSCH if you start from the beginning you will have a really hard time stomaching #2 and #3.

But then you would miss DSCH 1!

And shed them of their agitprop texts, 2 and 3 do not suffer from a lack of musically interesting things.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 25, 2019, 12:35:03 AM
I know of someone - and I do believe him - who claimed to have listened to all the DSCH symphonies in order 1 to 15 in one sitting! A big Shostakovich nut, but doubt if he is now!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 25, 2019, 02:06:42 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 23, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
Not me!  I'd definitely suggest like all great symphonists (Mahler, Prokofiev, Shostakovitch, Sibelius, Beethoven) go in order.  They are evolving and the symphonies are semi-autobiographical.  PLEASE go in order.   Just imagine if someone suggest starting with Sibelius 4 or Mahler 6 or Shosti 5 or something.

In all those cases (and VW too) with the exception of Mahler - the first symphony is atypical of the maturer output as a whole.  For me, that would be a good reason to start elsewhere - I'd need to hear a typical work to know if I want to continue with the adventure or not.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 25, 2019, 02:09:55 AM
Over the years I have bought several complete Mahler and Sibelius cycles and usually listened to them in numerical order but that is not how I got to know these works. It was haphazard - what was in my local record shop or record library.

Currently working through the Gielen Mahler cycle but hit my usual stumbling block, No 8 - I will listen to it eventually.

My experience with RVW is pretty much the same.

AS the poster who initiated this discussion has a complete cycle already I suppose it is reasonable to start with No 1 though I found it difficult to finish for many years.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 25, 2019, 02:23:42 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 25, 2019, 02:09:55 AM
AS the poster who initiated this discussion has a complete cycle already I suppose it is reasonable to start with No 1 though I found it difficult to finish for many years.

For me (and some more, here) the Sea Symphony is the odd one out; I would never advise to start there.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 25, 2019, 02:38:35 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 25, 2019, 02:23:42 AM
For me (and some more, here) the Sea Symphony is the odd one out; I would never advise to start there.

The OP was going to listen to the Sea Symphony on March 22. He/she hasn't reported back yet.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 25, 2019, 02:51:23 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 25, 2019, 02:38:35 AM
The OP was going to listen to the Sea Symphony on March 22. He/she hasn't reported back yet.
It is indeed quite long, AFAIK; I myself rarely make it till the end.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on March 28, 2019, 08:53:49 AM
I started with the Sea Symphony.  ::) And liked it a lot.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2019, 05:47:45 AM
I don't think this recording is high on vandermolen's,list;but I quite like it?! I played it the other night! It was my introduction to the Fifth Symphony,and Flos Campi;via an emi musicassette,bought in,Woolworths or Smiths (and maybe,even Boots?!). Remember when,the defunct (as per,high street) Woolworths and WH Smiths actually sold some ,Lp's,cd's (and cassettes) worth buying? And even some recordings of composers like VW,Elgar,Walton,etc?! I even bought cd's (or cassettes,I can't remember) of Gibson conducting Sibelius in Boots,of all places!! Anyway,this VW cd of the Fifth and Flos Campi was one. I later bought the cd. Handley isn't my favourite conductor for any VW work;but I think his 3 & 4 are very good,and I quite like his Job. I also like the performances on this cd. But the clincher,for me,(admittedly ;D) is probably putting Flos Campi together,and placing Flos Campi,first;which is one of my favourite VW  works.

(https://i.imgur.com/ZIj3eWL.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 29, 2019, 05:52:21 AM
My first ever purchase was a Music for Pleasure LP of  Sargent conducting Vaughan Williams (Serenade to Music, Greensleeves etc), bought in Boots.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2019, 10:17:16 AM
I'm glad you've confirmed this! I was,actually,beginning to think I might just have imagined buying classical cd's there! ??? ::) ;D I'm not sure if they didn't even have a Boots cd label? But I can't find anything online? I think the Gibson Sibelius cd's were,more probably,the budget series by Chandos. (They were Chandos recordings). I don't think Woolworths or WH Smiths went much further than Elgar,VW,Walton,Delius or Holst's The Planets;but I think they may have had some Arnold. I'm sure I saw the emi cassette of Beckus the Dandipratt,etc,there (and bought it!). Some of Britten's more popular works,of course! I'm lucky to find anything of the slightest interest in WH Smith,these days! Gone are the days when I'd stand there,looking up cd reviews in the Penguin and Gramophone guides. Although,I take the occasional peek at Gramophone. I did use the Post Office there,today,though!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 29, 2019, 10:57:51 AM
I also bought my second and third LPs in Boots, also MfP - Beethoven 5 & 6 from Steinberg and the Pittsburgh SO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2019, 11:26:21 AM
Sibelius and Beethoven in Boots! And VW,Elgar and Walton in WH Smith and Woolworths! Wow!! ??? :o :o :o ;D I was in the Post Office in WH Smith today,thinking;they used to have those records and cassettes (and cd's) here,where I'm standing! Mahler,too! Barbirolli's Fifth and Ninth seemed to be regulars! Wyn Morris' Beethoven recordings on Pickwick & Imp,budget label's. Very good,too! I think I can remember Barbirolli's recordings of Appalachia and Brigg fair on cassette,as well?!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 29, 2019, 01:12:29 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 29, 2019, 05:47:45 AM
I don't think this recording is high on vandermolen's,list;but I quite like it?! I played it the other night! It was my introduction to the Fifth Symphony,and Flos Campi;via an emi musicassette,bought in,Woolworths or Smiths (and maybe,even Boots?!). Remember when,the defunct (as per,high street) Woolworths and WH Smiths actually sold some ,Lp's,cd's (and cassettes) worth buying? And even some recordings of composers like VW,Elgar,Walton,etc?! I even bought cd's (or cassettes,I can't remember) of Gibson conducting Sibelius in Boots,of all places!! Anyway,this VW cd of the Fifth and Flos Campi was one. I later bought the cd. Handley isn't my favourite conductor for any VW work;but I think his 3 & 4 are very good,and I quite like his Job. I also like the performances on this cd. But the clincher,for me,(admittedly ;D) is probably putting Flos Campi together,and placing Flos Campi,first;which is one of my favourite VW  works.

(https://i.imgur.com/ZIj3eWL.jpg)
It's a good CD. My youthful Saturday job was in the record department at WH Smith in the Earl's Court Road, London. Most of my wages went on LPs which I purchased with my staff discount, including Boult's EMI boxed set of the VW symphonies on LP.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on March 29, 2019, 09:18:58 PM
Is it my impression or the 9th Symphony is the most Baxian of the bunch? The chromatism is notoriously more impressionistic and less pastoral, a bit harsh. Even I dare to say that Brian is on the mix. Anyway, VW certainly was changing his style from this point. I'd have liked there were a 10th Symphony by him (ditto for other similar situations in some composers: Glazunov 9th completed, Prokofiev 8th, Bruckner 10th if completed the 9th, Brahms 5th, Kalinnikov 3rd, Nielsen 7th, Walton 3rd, and so on).

All in all, the 9th might be my second favorite (after the 2nd). BTW, the recording I listened to was that by Thomson on Chandos.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 29, 2019, 11:43:57 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 29, 2019, 09:18:58 PM
Is it my impression or the 9th Symphony is the most Baxian of the bunch? The chromatism is notoriously more impressionistic and less pastoral, a bit harsh. Even I dare to say that Brian is on the mix. Anyway, VW certainly was changing his style from this point. I'd have liked there were a 10th Symphony by him (ditto for other similar situations in some composers: Glazunov 9th completed, Prokofiev 8th, Bruckner 10th if completed the 9th, Brahms 5th, Kalinnikov 3rd, Nielsen 7th, Walton 3rd, and so on).

All in all, the 9th might be my second favorite (after the 2nd). BTW, the recording I listened to was that by Thomson on Chandos.
Interesting point about Bax Cesar. I hadn't thought of that before but I see your point. The 9th is perhaps my favourite with 6 and the 1913 or 1920 version of 2. The Thomson recording is excellent and nicely coupled with the Piano Concerto on its original release. Yes, I wish that Glazunov had completed No.9 as I liove the poignant and moving opening movement. I'm sure that I once heard Walton (at a speech made at a concert) say that he was working on a Third Symphony but nothing ever appeared.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 30, 2019, 12:06:21 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 29, 2019, 11:26:21 AM
Sibelius and Beethoven in Boots! And VW,Elgar and Walton in WH Smith and Woolworths! Wow!! ??? :o :o :o ;D I was in the Post Office in WH Smith today,thinking;they used to have those records and cassettes (and cd's) here,where I'm standing! Mahler,too! Barbirolli's Fifth and Ninth seemed to be regulars! Wyn Morris' Beethoven recordings on Pickwick & Imp,budget label's. Very good,too! I think I can remember Barbirolli's recordings of Appalachia and Brigg fair on cassette,as well?!

Let us not forget Marks and Sparks had their own label too! CD and some vinyl. How the mighty have fallen!

(https://images.eil.com/large_image/EDWARD_ELGAR_ENIGMA%2BVARIATIONS%2BOP.36%2B-%2BSEALED-564699.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on March 30, 2019, 04:41:55 AM
And,an original recording,made exclusively,for Marks and Spencer;no less!! :o I don't think Boots,WH Smith or Woollies ever managed that? Or did,they?!! HMV had their bargain label,too! I like their cd of Moeran's Symphony,with the Bax and John Ireland recordings of Tintagel & A London Overture. I think they make a nice listen;put together,like that!
It would be quite interesting to hear that recording of the Enigma Variations by Richard Armstrong. Just for the record,as they say?!! ::) ;D The artwork is mildly interesting. A face made up of question marks>!! Aha! The Enigma!! Gedditt?!! ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 30, 2019, 04:53:57 AM
I am not sure but I think Hallmark records were only on sale in Woolies. However, I don't think they were original recordings. Another early purchase was Beethoven 9 from Krips/LSO on that label from Woolies.. The Krips Beethoven cycle has been round the houses before and since that 1969 purchase.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on March 30, 2019, 11:33:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 29, 2019, 11:43:57 PM
Interesting point about Bax Cesar. I hadn't thought of that before but I see your point. The 9th is perhaps my favourite with 6 and the 1913 or 1920 version of 2. The Thomson recording is excellent and nicely coupled with the Piano Concerto on its original release. Yes, I wish that Glazunov had completed No.9 as I liove the poignant and moving opening movement. I'm sure that I once heard Walton (at a speech made at a concert) say that he was working on a Third Symphony but nothing ever appeared.

Just yesterday I realized that connection. Equally, the 5th may be seen as his most Sibelian. It's interesting how composers influence each other and how one notices that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 31, 2019, 01:32:30 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 30, 2019, 04:41:55 AM
And,an original recording,made exclusively,for Marks and Spencer;no less!! :o I don't think Boots,WH Smith or Woollies ever managed that? Or did,they?!! HMV had their bargain label,too! I like their cd of Moeran's Symphony,with the Bax and John Ireland recordings of Tintagel & A London Overture. I think they make a nice listen;put together,like that!
It would be quite interesting to hear that recording of the Enigma Variations by Richard Armstrong. Just for the record,as they say?!! ::) ;D The artwork is mildly interesting. A face made up of question marks>!! Aha! The Enigma!! Gedditt?!! ;D

Yes, being an original recording, along with quite a few others, set Marks and Spencer apart. Collins, the book publisher, had a piece of the action at the height of CD popularity making their own recordings. For reissues even Penguin, another famous publisher, entered the fray with great fanfares and then promptly sunk without trace.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 31, 2019, 07:22:33 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 29, 2019, 10:17:16 AM
I'm not sure if they didn't even have a Boots cd label? But I can't find anything online?

Boots Classical Collection - example cover pic:
[edit: replacing the Vivaldi example with something more appropriate]

(https://img.discogs.com/QkiYM5jPyZOYD1dCsgTyn4rtqmk=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-8570600-1464280576-6949.jpeg.jpg)
https://www.discogs.com/Elgar-Bax-In-The-South-Alassio-Froissart-Three-Characteristic-Pieces-Phantasy/release/8570600 (https://www.discogs.com/Elgar-Bax-In-The-South-Alassio-Froissart-Three-Characteristic-Pieces-Phantasy/release/8570600)

I have in my hand a CD of Bach organ music on that label (complete with Boots logo on cover art) which appears to be a rebadged BIS recording.  I also have a memory of something - Sibelius maybe - with Neeme Jarvi and the Gothenburgers - would also have been BIS I expect.
[edit] the Elgar above is Downes/BBCPO, and the Bax is Handley/RPO - recorded 1990 by Conifer.

Woolies I remember had their own label for covers of popular music singles, performed by the likes of Sheila Buxton - Embassy I think it was, although that is now a label I associate with jazz bootlegs.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on March 31, 2019, 01:44:50 PM
Quote from: Biffo on March 25, 2019, 02:38:35 AM
The OP was going to listen to the Sea Symphony on March 22. He/she hasn't reported back yet.

Still alive! Listening to the 5th symphony (same forces as before) as I type this.

I actually quite enjoyed the Sea Symphony, though I hasten to add that understanding it fully will require many further listens.

So far my favourite has probably been the 4th, but none of the works have disappointed me. I'm very much looking forward to continuing this project!

As to the listening tactics: I tend to approach a big body of works (like a symphony cycle) in chronological order. Just a personal preference; I thoroughly enjoy seeing (or rather: hearing) how the composer developed in a particular genre.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2019, 01:53:46 PM
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on March 31, 2019, 01:44:50 PM
So far my favourite has probably been the 4th...

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/beavis_and_butthead_headbanging.gif)


Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on March 31, 2019, 02:00:49 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 30, 2019, 04:41:55 AM
And,an original recording,made exclusively,for Marks and Spencer;no less!! :o I don't think Boots,WH Smith or Woollies ever managed that? Or did,they?!! HMV had their bargain label,too! I like their cd of Moeran's Symphony,with the Bax and John Ireland recordings of Tintagel & A London Overture. I think they make a nice listen;put together,like that!
It would be quite interesting to hear that recording of the Enigma Variations by Richard Armstrong. Just for the record,as they say?!! ::) ;D The artwork is mildly interesting. A face made up of question marks>!! Aha! The Enigma!! Gedditt?!! ;D

Here it is for you, on Amazon US, at least.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91TlpEvvEmL.jpg)
[asin]B000025UMB[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DaveF on April 04, 2019, 08:53:25 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 29, 2019, 05:52:21 AM
My first ever purchase was a Music for Pleasure LP of  Sargent conducting Vaughan Williams (Serenade to Music, Greensleeves etc), bought in Boots.

The only thing more nostalgic than VW's music is reminiscing about buying LPs of it in Boots!

I've just been listening to a surprisingly good recording of the London Symphony on Spotify (not LP) by the RLPO conducted by Andrew Manze (that was the surprising bit - although looking closer I see it's part of a complete cycle (ongoing?)).  Crystal clear recording and splendidly audible percussion (of interest particularly to a percussionist who's going to be playing it on Sunday).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 04, 2019, 09:34:46 AM
Quote from: DaveF on April 04, 2019, 08:53:25 AM
The only thing more nostalgic than VW's music is reminiscing about buying LPs of it in Boots!

I've just been listening to a surprisingly good recording of the London Symphony on Spotify (not LP) by the RLPO conducted by Andrew Manze (that was the surprising bit - although looking closer I see it's part of a complete cycle (ongoing?)).  Crystal clear recording and splendidly audible percussion (of interest particularly to a percussionist who's going to be playing it on Sunday).

Being incurably nostalgic I have that recording on an old-fashioned CD. Actually,  I previewed it on Spotify.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 04, 2019, 09:42:02 AM
Quote from: DaveF on April 04, 2019, 08:53:25 AM
The only thing more nostalgic than VW's music is reminiscing about buying LPs of it in Boots!

Nostalgia! I used to buy CDs in New York at "The Record Hunter" on the corner of 5th Avenue and 42nd Street. (catty corner with the New York Public Library). It was replaced by an H&M store.

After strolling out with my CDs I'd see this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7529525,-73.9813153,3a,75y,278.54h,98.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUdC-CA_uvcTKRoVPLk2nxw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7529525,-73.9813153,3a,75y,278.54h,98.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUdC-CA_uvcTKRoVPLk2nxw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DaveF on April 04, 2019, 09:50:11 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 04, 2019, 09:34:46 AM
Being incurably nostalgic I have that recording on an old-fashioned CD. Actually,  I previewed it on Spotify.

Ah, CDs... I remember buying my first one in Farringdon Records in about 1987, in the days of good Queen Margaret...  How does the rest of the cycle sound, I wonder?  They're a bit pricey at the moment, although I see Qobuz has 5/6 and 2/8 both at £6.49, and the Sea Symphony for £3.60, the last a real bargain if any good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 04, 2019, 02:02:55 PM
Vandermolen may be interested to know,that,I finally gave into temptation and bought s/h cds of Bryden Thomson's recordings of Symphonies 4,6 & 9. I like all the recordings of music I've heard by Thomson;and after listening to VW symphonies,over the last few days,I decided I just had to hear some of his VW,which I know is rated highly here,by some members;including vandermolen. I note,that the Thomson recording of the Ninth,is paired with the Piano concerto;one of my favourite VW compositions (particularly in the Boult emi recording) and the Sixth,with the Tuba Concerto. I must say,I love the Tuba Concerto;which I know from the  Barbirolli recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 04, 2019, 10:06:39 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 04, 2019, 02:02:55 PM
Vandermolen may be interested to know,that,I finally gave into temptation and bought s/h cds of Bryden Thomson's recordings of Symphonies 4,6 & 9. I like all the recordings of music I've heard by Thomson;and after listening to VW symphonies,over the last few days,I decided I just had to hear some of his VW,which I know is rated highly here,by some members;including vandermolen. I note,that the Thomson recording of the Ninth,is paired with the Piano concerto;one of my favourite VW compositions (particularly in the Boult emi recording) and the Sixth,with the Tuba Concerto. I must say,I love the Tuba Concerto;which I know from the  Barbirolli recording.
Unlike more sensible people here, I also have a strong preference for Thomson in the Sixth - I think his somewhat slower approach in the first movement is extra dramatic and powerful, it's my first choice - and the two middle parts of the Ninth: with no one else the raw drama, especially of the second movement, with its alternation of banality and nostalgia (theme of The Solent) comes out so well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 05, 2019, 12:21:17 AM
I'm looking forward to the Thomson Sixth,Christo! :)  And the other two! I picked the Ninth,because it's one of my favourites,I needed another recording;and it seems to be one of the more difficult ones to get 'right'! And the Piano concerto,was another incentive! The Sixth,is another 'tricky' one. And it is one of my favourite VW symphonies. I saw your post about the Thomson recording on the WAYLTN (What are you listening to now? for the uninitiated! ;D) which was another reason to hear it. I like Thomson's Bax,which has had it's share of flak from the critics! (Even Chandos favour Handley!! >:( ;D. And I'd love another recording of the Tuba concerto!! :) And the Fourth,from being one of my lkeast favourite VW symphonies,has increasingly become one of my favourites. A fascinating and gripping symphony. I NEED another recording! I'm not so sure about,the fill-up?(horrible term,I know! The 'Concerto Accademico';but I need another opportunity to get to know this work,a little better! Has anyone got a view on this work,that they could share;by the way?! Oh,and I mustn't forget the paintings!!

Incidentally,I listened to the RCA cd of Previn conducting Symphonies 7 & 8,last night. I've posted about his 'Sinfonia Antartica',before;but not about his No 8,which I focused on last night. I think this might be a favourite recording,now! The last movement was a particular delight;and the way the recording team seemed to get all those instruments. I found it quite thrilling,actually!  No 8 may just have moved up my 'favourite' VW symphonies 'list',now (although I've always enjoyed the first movement). Not that I didn't like it. I just didn't know quite what to make of it?! I think I'm going to just have,to have,another listen later!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2019, 02:57:19 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 04, 2019, 02:02:55 PM
Vandermolen may be interested to know,that,I finally gave into temptation and bought s/h cds of Bryden Thomson's recordings of Symphonies 4,6 & 9. I like all the recordings of music I've heard by Thomson;and after listening to VW symphonies,over the last few days,I decided I just had to hear some of his VW,which I know is rated highly here,by some members;including vandermolen. I note,that the Thomson recording of the Ninth,is paired with the Piano concerto;one of my favourite VW compositions (particularly in the Boult emi recording) and the Sixth,with the Tuba Concerto. I must say,I love the Tuba Concerto;which I know from the  Barbirolli recording.
Of course I'm delighted to hear that you have snapped up copies of Bryden Thomson's underrated Vaughan Williams cycle cilgwyn. I have all the individual releases with their fine J.M.W.Turner cover images and also the boxed set  (OCDCDCD) which includes the fine earlier painting of the composer by Sir Gerald Kelly. Here is what the 'BBC Music Magazine Top 1000 CDs Guide' had to say about their choice of Thomson's recording of VW's Symphony 6:

Command of the ardour, menace and baleful violence of the first three movements (Andrew Davis, Vernon Handley, Previn) doesn't guarantee ability to sustain the miasmic tension of that Sphinx-like finale, whose undulating, almost expressionless lines convey ultimate elegiac pathos whilst never rising above pianissimo...Iron discipline is needed in performance but, but Slatkin (like Kees Bakels on Naxos) seems to achieve it at the expense of the other movements tensions...Bryden Thomson, despite the slightly cavernous Chandos sound, here delivers the most cogent performance of his cycle...and there is a rapt, frozen beauty to the finale.

I'm also a fan of the Tuba Concerto, especially the beautiful central movement and totally disagree with James Day's negative assessment of the work ('the jokes fall flat') in his biography of the composer. Thanks to Christo I discovered a fine version of that central movement for cello and orchestra. I'm also totally with you on the Symphony 9/Piano Concerto coupling on Chandos - two of my favourite works by Vaughan Williams and I'll be interested to hear your views on the Thomson recordings. I rarely listen to the Concerto Accademico and much prefer the Tuba Concerto and the Piano Concerto, especially in its two piano version.

PS Cilgwyn, I think that you're right about Previn's being the best recording of Symphony 8 - it has a magical quality to the opening and an atmosphere unlike any other version I know. On to the subject of great VW couplings and also fine cover images here is one of the favourite VW discoveries of my youth, which I took out of the High Street Kensington Music Library. I made my father join the library as well, although he had no interest in classical music, so that I could use his three tickets as well as my own (contextual information). Recently reissued on CD in Japan with notes all in Japanese:

PPS Berglund's is probably my favourite version of Symphony 4 although I also like ones by Boult (about the only time I prefer his EMI version to the earlier Decca recording, although 'A London Symphony' is also marvellous on EMI) Mitropolous and Bernstein.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 05, 2019, 04:33:43 AM
Yes,I must say,I haven't,exactly,been blown away by the Concerto Accademica,when I've listened to it! I'll have to listen to it,now,though! Unless I turn the cd off,after the symphony!! ;D I like the mental picture of you making your father join the library! I'm sure it was,merely,gentle persuasion?! It reminds me of my father;who isn't interested in music. He used to call the cd player,the noise machine!! revealing,much to my consternation;after my mother died,that he didn't like Bob Hope! So he was just feigning?!! ??? ;D The movies he sat through!! ??? :( ;D Though, I can understand him! The things I've had to listen to,or sit through;not wanting to hurt someone's feelings!! ::) ??? Oh well! He won't get to see the Marx Brothers!! >:D ;D Although,I've bought a s/h dvd of The Night of the Hunter (He likes Robert Mitchum. And so do I!) for him to watch when I go to stay with him,next! (He said it was his favourite movie;if he had to pick one!)
Anyway,I digress (badly!).About the Tuba Concerto! I must admit (and I'm probably showing my ignorance here) I haven't heard of James Day. Whoever he is? He's wrong! I don't know about the 'jokes'? But it's a lovely and humorous work!
I'll have to get around to hearing the Abravanel recording,before long,too! Another conductor I like! I've got his Mahler and Sibelius cycle;which are both good! I also like his (underrated,imo) recording's of Rimsky Korsakov's 'Antar' and the Goldmark Rustic Wedding Symphony! Oh,and I've got to include his recording of Schuman's Seventh! One day,I'm going to have to hear his Tchaikovsky! But that's for another thread!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2019, 05:11:53 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 05, 2019, 04:33:43 AM
Yes,I must say,I haven't,exactly,been blown away by the Concerto Accademica,when I've listened to it! I'll have to listen to it,now,though! Unless I turn the cd off,after the symphony!! ;D I like the mental picture of you making your father join the library! I'm sure it was,merely,gentle persuasion?! It reminds me of my father;who isn't interested in music. He used to call the cd player,the noise machine!! revealing,much to my consternation;after my mother died,that he didn't like Bob Hope! So he was just feigning?!! ??? ;D The movies he sat through!! ??? :( ;D Though, I can understand him! The things I've had to listen to,or sit through;not wanting to hurt someone's feelings!! ::) ??? Oh well! He won't get to see the Marx Brothers!! >:D ;D Although,I've bought a s/h dvd of The Night of the Hunter (He likes Robert Mitchum. And so do I!) for him to watch when I go to stay with him,next! (He said it was his favourite movie;if he had to pick one!)
Anyway,I digress (badly!).About the Tuba Concerto! I must admit (and I'm probably showing my ignorance here) I haven't heard of James Day. Whoever he is? He's wrong! I don't know about the 'jokes'? But it's a lovely and humorous work!
I'll have to get around to hearing the Abravanel recording,before long,too! Another conductor I like! I've got his Mahler and Sibelius cycle;which are both good! I also like his (underrated,imo) recording's of Rimsky Korsakov's 'Antar' and the Goldmark Rustic Wedding Symphony! Oh,and I've got to include his recording of Schuman's Seventh! One day,I'm going to have to hear his Tchaikovsky! But that's for another thread!!
I very much agree with you about Maurice Abravanel as well cilgwyn. I have his interesting Sibelius cycle as well as that very good 'Antar' release as well as the fine Bloch and VW releases on Vanguard (my first encounter with 'Dona Nobis Pacem' purchased at a second hand record shop in Manchester - luckily I decided to check the vinyl before leaving Manchester as the shop had accidentally put in Schubert's 'Trout Quintet' by mistake. Had I got back to London before making this discovery I would have had a major sense of humour failure). Forcing my father to join the record library meant that I could take out six, rather than three, LPs at a time. He tended only to listen to Frank Sinatra (whom I was amazed to discover recently was an admirer of Vaughan Williams! - I'm sorry that my father is not around to hear this).

My daughter always likes me to find a suitably scary film for herself and her close friend to watch together on Halloween. Fortunately her father (ie me) is a horror film officianado and as a twelve year old my cousin and I were by far the youngest members of the 'Gothic Film Society' in Holborn. Our respective fathers were forced to take us. Anyway, last year I suggested 'Night of the Hunter'. My daughter came home from watching the film with her friend and just said 'terrifying', so obviously it was a good choice. The next day I was giving her a lift somewhere and said 'lets just see what's on the radio'. Unbeknown to her I had slipped the soundtrack of Night of the Hunter into the car's CD player so that out of the loudspeakers came the booming voice of Robert Mitchum, as the deranged priest, singing that song 'Leaning, leaning on the arms of the Lord...etc'. My daughter was quite cross with me. My father and I did share a taste for the Marx Brothers, especially 'A Night at the Opera'. Going back to Night of the Hunter it was a shame that it was originally very poorly reviewed, as a result of which Charles Laughton (a marvellous actor) never directed another film. He obviously was a great and innovative director and now of course the film is considered a great classic of the cinema.
(//)
James Day wrote the biography of VW in the 'Master Musicians' series. It is very good although we disagree with his opinion of the Tuba Concerto.

PS when I lived with my parents their bedroom was next to mine. One morning I was playing Durufle's 'Requiem' at top volume. My father came into my room complaining that it was 'like waking up in a crypt'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on April 05, 2019, 06:27:56 AM
Another round of Jeffrey Tales  ;D.

Yes Night of the Hunter is that rare bird, an authentic but lone and unclassifiable masterpiece of the silver screen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 05, 2019, 10:26:45 AM
I must admit,my taste in films tends to more populistic stuff. Old movie series (The Falcon,The Thin Man,Sherlock Holmes with Basil Rathbone,Mr Moto;they get worse!! ??? :o) cinema serials (a big fan!! ::) :-[) science fiction,particularly 50's;but taking in some 60's,as well! But all the films I've bought to show to my father have been enjoyed by me,so far! La Ronde & the Queen of Spades (He likes Anton Walbrook) Le Plaisir,Cocteau's La Belle et la Bête,The Wages of Fear,Miracle in Milan,Jour de fête (Tati). These are all films he saw in the cinema,when he was young! I bought a box set of WC Fields,a couple of years ago;because my father likes him. I'm now a fan,myself! He has got to see Harpo Marx,in an episode of I Love Lucy! I bought two box sets of the show to put on for them,when my mother was alive. I couldn't get that blinking tune out of my head for days!! ::) :( ;D (LOOOCEEE!! ???) I will be taking Orphée for him to watch,as well as The Night of the Hunter! Also,The Fabulous Baron Munchausen;a Czech animation,by Karel Zenman,which I bought on dvd,a few months ago;and which I'm hoping he will like? (It fair blew my mind,to be honest! Never seen anything like it!! ???) I'm not sure about some of the other stuff he likes? The Black Narcissus (ME: A film about Nuns?!! ??? :( My Father: Oh,but the photography!)

Erm,back to Vaughan Williams! ::) ;D
Vandermolen: Incidentally,I was looking at some members lists of their favourite recordings of VW symphonies,quite a few pages back! Would you mind reminding me of your current favourites for each symphony. It would be interesting to see if some of your choices have changed?!! (I'll have to try & list mine?)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2019, 10:44:54 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 05, 2019, 10:26:45 AM
I must admit,my taste in films tends to more populistic stuff. Old movie series (The Falcon,The Thin Man,Sherlock Holmes with Basil Rathbone,Mr Moto;they get worse!! ??? :o) cinema serials (a big fan!! ::) :-[) science fiction,particularly 50's;but taking in some 60's,as well! But all the films I've bought to show to my father have been enjoyed by me,so far! La Ronde & the Queen of Spades (He likes Anton Walbrook) Le Plaisir,Cocteau's La Belle et la Bête,The Wages of Fear,Miracle in Milan,Jour de fête (Tati). These are all films he saw in the cinema,when he was young! I bought a box set of WC Fields,a couple of years ago;because my father likes him. I'm now a fan,myself! He has got to see Harpo Marx,in an episode of I Love Lucy! I bought two box sets of the show to put on for them,when my mother was alive. I couldn't get that blinking tune out of my head for days!! ::) :( ;D (LOOOCEEE!! ???) I will be taking Orphée for him to watch,as well as The Night of the Hunter! Also,The Fabulous Baron Munchausen;a Czech animation,by Karel Zenman,which I bought on dvd,a few months ago;and which I'm hoping he will like? (It fair blew my mind,to be honest! Never seen anything like it!! ???) I'm not sure about some of the other stuff he likes? The Black Narcissus (ME: A film about Nuns?!! ??? :( My Father: Oh,but the photography!)

Erm,back to Vaughan Williams! ::) ;D
Vandermolen: Incidentally,I was looking at some members lists of their favourite recordings of VW symphonies,quite a few pages back! Would you mind reminding me of your current favourites for each symphony. It would be interesting to see if some of your choices have changed?!! (I'll have to try & list mine?)

Yes, of course, with pleasure:

A Sea Symphony: Haitink
A London Symphony 1913 version: Hickox (only recording)
A London Symphony 1920 version (my favourite version): Brabbins or Goossens ( historical recording from 1941)
A London Symphony 1936 version: Boult (EMI), Previn (RCA), Barbirolli (EMI)
A Pastoral Symphony: Previn
Symphony 4: Berglund, Mitropolous (historic recording) which I prefer to the composer's much praised version
Symphony 5: Barbirolli (EMI), Vaughan Williams (historic recording)
Symphony 6: Boult (Decca), Berglund, Thomson, Abravanel
Sinfonia Antartica: Boult (Decca) - Boult's objective approach with Vaughan Williams works well here. I also like his later EMI recording
Symphony 8: Previn
Symphony 9: Stokowski, both Boult versions, Thomson and Slatkin.

The Rozhdestvensky symphony box is also of great interest even when the organ goes a bit 'Dr Phibes' in Sinfonia Antartica.

As to Sherlock Holmes I much prefer the Basil Rathbone versions (especially the Hound of the Baskervilles) to the recent smug, knowing and self-satisfied TV series which I couldn't stand. My students thought it was wonderful and were constantly telling me to watch it. There is a statue of Conan Doyle in the local town where he lived.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Jo498 on April 05, 2019, 10:57:00 AM
off topic: Do you mean Jeremy Brett's series (about 20? years ago, recent compared to Rathbone...) or the more recent "modernized" one with Cumberbatch? (I watched the first 4-5 and didn't much like it either. Which puts me in a minority among friends and relatives. I also disliked the steampunkish movie with Robert Downey jr.) Or is there still another Sherlock Holmes TV series one?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2019, 12:40:05 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 05, 2019, 10:57:00 AM
off topic: Do you mean Jeremy Brett's series (about 20? years ago, recent compared to Rathbone...) or the more recent "modernized" one with Cumberbatch? (I watched the first 4-5 and didn't much like it either. Which puts me in a minority among friends and relatives. I also disliked the steampunkish movie with Robert Downey jr.) Or is there still another Sherlock Holmes TV series one?
OT

No, the Brett was fine although he over-acted a bit. I meant the one with Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman. As I said my students loved it. I didn't like the Robert Downey one either. I did, however, very much like 'The Seven Percent Solution' with the great Nicol Williamson as the drug-addled Sherlock Holmes and a fine performance by Alan Arkin as Sigmund Freud. However, Robert Duvall's English accent as Dr Watson is something quite extraordinary..Bring back Basil Rathbone!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2019, 01:38:03 PM
The film 'Scott of the Antarctic' was on TV a week or so ago. I recorded it and stayed up late to watch it last night. I had not seen it for years (I actually arranged a screening of it when I was in charge of the Film Society at school). It was interesting to hear Vaughan Williams's music in its original context. Of course the film was very much of its time with the 'stiff upper lip' ethos of its period and made before more recent revisionism/hatchet jobs on Scott's reputation. I enjoyed the film notwithstanding remembering hearing the late film director Ken Russell saying that 'the best actors (in the film) were the penguins'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 05, 2019, 04:11:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 05, 2019, 01:38:03 PM
The film 'Scott of the Antarctic' was on TV a week or so ago. I recorded it and stayed up late to watch it last night. I had not seen it for years (I actually arranged a screening of it when I was in charge of the Film Society at school). It was interesting to hear Vaughan Williams's music in its original context. Of course the film was very much of its time with the 'stiff upper lip' ethos of its period and made before more recent revisionism/hatchet jobs on Scott's reputation. I enjoyed the film notwithstanding remembering hearing the late film director Ken Russell saying that 'the best actors (in the film) were the penguins'.

For us Yanks, can you elaborate on the "stiff upper lip" as Arthur Benjamin has made reference to it as well and I don't quite get the meaning.  How does this translate into the story of Scott?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2019, 11:46:20 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 05, 2019, 04:11:01 PM
For us Yanks, can you elaborate on the "stiff upper lip" as Arthur Benjamin has made reference to it as well and I don't quite get the meaning.  How does this translate into the story of Scott?
OT

'Displays fortitude and stoicism in the face of adversity' is the wiki definition which sounds right to me. In Scott its most characteristic expression was Captain Oates walking out of the tent ( to his death) in a freezing blizzard, saying 'I'm just going outside and may be some time' in order to try to help his companions to survive. He was very lame probably with gangrene in his foot and was holding the others back. They refused to abandon him when he asked them to leave him in his sleeping bag so he just walked out to his death instead. Then as the remaining three lay freezing to death in their tent some miles further on  Scott carried on writing his journal in which he wrote something like 'we knew we took risks, things have worked out against us and therefore we have no cause for complaint'.

Oates and Scott were seen at the time as providing a heroic example for others to follow. It can also be seen, more worryingly,  as an invitation to a whole generation of young men to sacrifice themselves on the eve of the First World War. More recent revisionist works have painted Scott as an incompetent leader and a snob. Maybe there is a message for Brexit somewhere here! Hope this explanation helps.

Here is a painting of poor Oates going out into the blizzard:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2019, 11:48:15 PM
This CD features a lovely short work 'Romance for Viola and Piano' found amongst VW's papers after his death. It reminded me a bit in spirit of the piano work 'The Lake in the Mountains':
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 05, 2019, 11:59:40 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 05, 2019, 11:48:15 PM
This CD features a lovely short work 'Romance for Viola and Piano' found amongst VW's papers after his death. It reminded me a bit in spirit of the piano work 'The Lake in the Mountains':
The guess is, that it dates from 1914 (pre WWI), which would partly explain its later neglect. I love the orchestral version - by the viola player himself, Roger Chase - here:
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/185/MI0001185725.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 06, 2019, 12:03:40 AM
Quote from: Christo on April 05, 2019, 11:59:40 PM
The guess is, that it dates from 1914 (pre WWI), which would partly explain its later neglect. I love the orchestral version - by the viola player himself, Roger Chase - here:
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/185/MI0001185725.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Oh yes! Thanks Johan I had forgotten that it was included on that great CD.
The notes for the Tertis CD suggest that it might come from c.1930.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 06, 2019, 01:01:43 AM
Re: Stiff upper lip

'Displays fortitude and stoicism in the face of adversity' - correct but it also has the connotation of not showing emotions, something real men weren't supposed to do. Definitely seems to have gone out of fashion these days.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on April 06, 2019, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 05, 2019, 11:46:20 PM
OT

'Displays fortitude and stoicism in the face of adversity' is the wiki definition which sounds right to me. In Scott its most characteristic expression was Captain Oates walking out of the tent ( to his death) in a freezing blizzard, saying 'I'm just going outside and may be some time' in order to try to help his companions to survive. He was very lame probably with gangrene in his foot and was holding the others back. They refused to abandon him when he asked them to leave him in his sleeping bag so he just walked out to his death instead. Then as the remaining three lay freezing to death in their tent some miles further on  Scott carried on writing his journal in which he wrote something like 'we knew we took risks, things have worked out against us and therefore we have no cause for complaint'.

Oates and Scott were seen at the time as providing a heroic example for others to follow. It can also be seen, more worryingly,  as an invitation to a whole generation of young men to sacrifice themselves on the eve of the First World War. More recent revisionist works have painted Scott as an incompetent leader and a snob. Maybe there is a message for Brexit somewhere here! Hope this explanation helps.

Here is a painting of poor Oates going out into the blizzard:
(//)

QuoteWe arrived within 11 miles of our old One Ton Camp with fuel for one hot meal and food for two days. For four days we have been unable to leave the tent - the gale howling about us. We are weak, writing is difficult, but for my own sake I do not regret this journey, which has shown that Englishmen can endure hardships, help one another, and meet death with as great a fortitude as ever in the past. We took risks, we knew we took them; things have come out against us, and therefore we have no cause for complaint, but bow to the will of Providence, determined still to do our best to the last.
For God's sake look after our people.
It's as if he was writing about Brexit.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on April 08, 2019, 06:02:35 PM
Earlier, I listened to a favorite I hadn't played in a long time: Toward the Unknown Region, for chorus and orchestra.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/811NpZCgQPL._SS500_.jpg)

What I can say is that this is awesome! It's one of those works that apparently go from dark to light (something I adore in music), with some mysticism in between. This performance does justice to the work, sounds so epic, even more with the stereo at high volume!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on April 09, 2019, 12:26:45 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/811NpZCgQPL._SS500_.jpg)

That fellow looks as though he's testing a venue for acoustics.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 09, 2019, 08:42:40 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on April 09, 2019, 12:26:45 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/811NpZCgQPL._SS500_.jpg)

That fellow looks as though he's testing a venue for acoustics.
;D I thought it was Jeremy Corbyn for a minute?! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 10, 2019, 07:43:40 AM
Listening to the early eloquent Piano Quintet (1903-5). The composer withdrew it when he returned from the First World War but his widow Ursula lifted the ban on the performance of the work. I'm glad that she did so.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 10, 2019, 09:30:22 AM
Symphony No 4 conducted by Mitropoulos! This cd arrived today & has been playing for most of the day!

(https://i.imgur.com/aG4hT2P.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 10, 2019, 09:37:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 10, 2019, 07:43:40 AM
Listening to the early eloquent Piano Quintet (1903-5). The composer withdrew it when he returned from the First World War but his widow Ursula lifted the ban on the performance of the work. I'm glad that she did so.
(//)

On the way from Chandos, mainly for the Quintet.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 10, 2019, 02:12:04 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 10, 2019, 09:30:22 AM
Symphony No 4 conducted by Mitropoulos! This cd arrived today & has been playing for most of the day!

(https://i.imgur.com/aG4hT2P.jpg)
One of the great VW CDs in my view.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 11, 2019, 02:26:56 AM
Interesting review of the Thomson cycle on the Musicweb site today:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Apr/VW_sys_CHAN9087.htm
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 11, 2019, 03:14:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 11, 2019, 02:26:56 AM
Interesting review of the Thomson cycle on the Musicweb site today:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000AQ2/musicwebuk
(//)

I can't find the review in your link - probably just me!

The complete cycle can be had from Chandos £8 cheaper than Amazon at £42.

I have been looking at the Thomson recordings individually on Chandos recently and find their pricing/availability policy baffling. I already have No 4, bought in their sale some time ago. Earlier in the year I bought No 6 as a lossless download for only a fiver - a bargain. Yesterday I bought No 2 as a bargain price CD. All the rest come in around the £10 mark though Nos 3, 4 & 7 are only available to download.

I will continue to buy them as and when they become available cheaply. This probably sounds sordidly materialistic but my funds are limited, the competition is fierce and I already have more versions of the symphonies than any sane man should own.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 11, 2019, 03:17:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 11, 2019, 02:26:56 AM
Interesting review of the Thomson cycle on the Musicweb site today:
Here it is: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Apr/VW_sys_CHAN9087.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 11, 2019, 03:18:50 AM
Yes, I've just redone the link and it works now but thanks to Christo for leaping into action.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 11, 2019, 03:23:15 AM
Quote from: Christo on April 11, 2019, 03:17:00 AM
Here it is: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Apr/VW_sys_CHAN9087.htm

Thanks for the link, an interesting review.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 11, 2019, 03:30:44 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 10, 2019, 02:12:04 PM
One of the great VW CDs in my view.
Not often you see the NYPO perform VW in general.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 11, 2019, 04:05:04 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 11, 2019, 03:30:44 AM
Not often you see the NYPO perform VW in general.
This is the only other one I know. Also a fine performance of VW's music:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 11, 2019, 06:34:17 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 11, 2019, 03:14:28 AM
I can't find the review in your link - probably just me!

The complete cycle can be had from Chandos £8 cheaper than Amazon at £42.


you can find the MHS version really cheap but i don't have a link right this second.

There is one on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bax-The-Complete-Symphonies-London-Philharmonic-Bryden-Thomson-MHS-CD-Disc/333125489681?hash=item4d8fd39411:g:uQIAAOSwMrZcky~f (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bax-The-Complete-Symphonies-London-Philharmonic-Bryden-Thomson-MHS-CD-Disc/333125489681?hash=item4d8fd39411:g:uQIAAOSwMrZcky~f)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 11, 2019, 12:47:45 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 11, 2019, 06:34:17 AM
you can find the MHS version really cheap but i don't have a link right this second.

There is one on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bax-The-Complete-Symphonies-London-Philharmonic-Bryden-Thomson-MHS-CD-Disc/333125489681?hash=item4d8fd39411:g:uQIAAOSwMrZcky~f (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bax-The-Complete-Symphonies-London-Philharmonic-Bryden-Thomson-MHS-CD-Disc/333125489681?hash=item4d8fd39411:g:uQIAAOSwMrZcky~f)
That's the Anerican issue of the Bax symphonies, which I also have and enjoy.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 11, 2019, 02:52:40 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 11, 2019, 12:47:45 PM
That's the Anerican issue of the Bax symphonies, which I also have and enjoy.
Sorry wrong link. This is what I have:

[asin]B004N0YJQO[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 11, 2019, 10:41:25 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 11, 2019, 02:52:40 PM
Sorry wrong link. This is what I have:

[asin]B004N0YJQO[/asin]
Interesting - never seen that release before. Good value at $9.00 for the set!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 11, 2019, 10:44:37 PM
Have been listening to this. In my view one of the comparatively few successful recordings of the turbulent Sixth Symphony and I enjoy the whole CD:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 12, 2019, 01:02:34 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 11, 2019, 02:52:40 PM
Sorry wrong link. This is what I have:

[asin]B004N0YJQO[/asin]

Now I know what MHS  stands for!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 12, 2019, 03:38:55 AM
I've been listening to the Bryden Thomson cd's of Symphonies 4,6,7 & 9,and the fill-ups (horrible term,I know!) as they have arrived here! This is the first time I've heard any of them. I've liked all of them,so far! In fact,although I was only planning to buy the cd's of 4 & 6 (for the time being) I liked what I heard so much,I just had to hear more! I remember reading a post by Christo,describing it as the most "gorgeous sounding" (hope I got that right?!But he used similar wording) VW cycle;and I have to say,I've just got to agree!! Case in point! For the first time I can honestly say,I "enjoyed" the Concerto Accademica. I didn't exactly dislike it before. It just didn't make much impression on me! It sounds,positively,scrumptious,in this performance! And the Tuba Concerto. I loved it in the old emi recording (Barbirolli,I think?!) but it sounds fabulous in the Chandos recording! And then there are the symphonies!!! ;D I honestly,think that,this may well be my favourite VW symphony cycle?! But I haven't heard them all yet! vandermolen (with a small 'v'!) always makes me smile,when he posts here about a cd! "I can't stop playing it!" he says! Erm,well you just press the stop (or eject?) button! It's not that hard!! (I'm sure his long suffering wife would love him to do just that! Permanently!! ;D) But I was thinking of that while I was playing these recordings. His performances of the Fourth and Sixth are just great. Everything about them. Up there with the best,imho! I also loved his Ninth;and the performance of the Piano Concerto. A big surprise was his Sinfonia Antartica. I really enjoyed this performance. I think,in terms of the sound quality,it's probably up there with Haitink. If I was to pose a minor criticism;I think the organ could have sounded more cataclysmic?! (And maybe a little more humour with those penguins?) The ending though was one of the best I've heard! Mysterious and enigmatic. Implacable nature! Listening to in the quietude of the early hours of the morning (after midnight) certainly intensified the experience;but,overall,(nit picking aside! ::) ;D) I found the whole performance quite thrilling! I also enjoyed the,truly,excellent (imo) choice of fill-up (again that word!);Towards the Unknown Region. A work I hadn't heard before! The cd of the Eighth Symphony is still in the post! I can't wait to hear what Bryden Thomson,and his team,did with that one;and all those wonderful sounds in VW's orchestration. After listening to the Previn recording,recently;No 8,is fast becoming (has become!)another favourite! Oh,and the choice of Turner paintings,for this cycle,was just great! Incidentally,I noticed this series was also released on cassette! Were any of them released on Lp? I had Lp's of Thomson's Bax! (Chandos cassettes were better than average for that medium!) The Lp's would have looked great! But perhaps this cycle was too late,in the day?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 12, 2019, 04:21:10 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 12, 2019, 01:02:34 AM
Now I know what MHS  stands for!
Me too!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 12, 2019, 04:48:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 12, 2019, 03:38:55 AM
I've been listening to the Bryden Thomson cd's of Symphonies 4,6,7 & 9,and the fill-ups (horrible term,I know!) as they have arrived here! This is the first time I've heard any of them. I've liked all of them,so far! In fact,although I was only planning to buy the cd's of 4 & 6 (for the time being) I liked what I heard so much,I just had to hear more! I remember reading a post by Christo,describing it as the most "gorgeous sounding" (hope I got that right?!But he used similar wording) VW cycle;and I have to say,I've just got to agree!! Case in point! For the first time I can honestly say,I "enjoyed" the Concerto Accademica. I didn't exactly dislike it before. It just didn't make much impression on me! It sounds,positively,scrumptious,in this performance! And the Tuba Concerto. I loved it in the old emi recording (Barbirolli,I think?!) but it sounds fabulous in the Chandos recording! And then there are the symphonies!!! ;D I honestly,think that,this may well be my favourite VW symphony cycle?! But I haven't heard them all yet! vandermolen (with a small 'v'!) always makes me smile,when he posts here about a cd! "I can't stop playing it!" he says! Erm,well you just press the stop (or eject?) button! It's not that hard!! (I'm sure his long suffering wife would love him to do just that! Permanently!! ;D) But I was thinking of that while I was playing these recordings. His performances of the Fourth and Sixth are just great. Everything about them. Up there with the best,imho! I also loved his Ninth;and the performance of the Piano Concerto. A big surprise was his Sinfonia Antartica. I really enjoyed this performance. I think,in terms of the sound quality,it's probably up there with Haitink. If I was to pose a minor criticism;I think the organ could have sounded more cataclysmic?! (And maybe a little more humour with those penguins?) The ending though was one of the best I've heard! Mysterious and enigmatic. Implacable nature! Listening to in the quietude of the early hours of the morning (after midnight) certainly intensified the experience;but,overall,(nit picking aside! ::) ;D) I found the whole performance quite thrilling! I also enjoyed the,truly,excellent (imo) choice of fill-up (again that word!);Towards the Unknown Region. A work I hadn't heard before! The cd of the Eighth Symphony is still in the post! I can't wait to hear what Bryden Thomson,and his team,did with that one;and all those wonderful sounds in VW's orchestration. After listening to the Previn recording,recently;No 8,is fast becoming (has become!)another favourite! Oh,and the choice of Turner paintings,for this cycle,was just great! Incidentally,I noticed this series was also released on cassette! Were any of them released on Lp? I had Lp's of Thomson's Bax! (Chandos cassettes were better than average for that medium!) The Lp's would have looked great! But perhaps this cycle was too late,in the day?
A very interesting review cilgwyn and I'm delighted that you are enjoying the Bryden Thomson's VW cycle. Incidentally his Chandos CD of Walton's Symphony 1 (of which I have over twenty copies - I mean twenty copies of the Walton symphony and not twenty copies of Bryden Thomson's recording of it) is one of the very greatest. You have encouraged me to listen to his recording of 'Sinfonia Antartica' which is oddly appropriate today as I have just been sitting here, having a cup of coffee whilst reading the most impressive book 'With Scott to the Pole - The Photographs of Herbert Ponting'. You also should hear the Rozhdestvensky recording of Sinfonia Antartica as the organ goes haywire at one point - it is still a fine version. You'll be pleased to hear that 'I can't stop playing' my new CD of works for violin and orchestra by the Israeli composer Paul Ben-Haim which might appeal to you as well. My wife has gone out to work so I'm able to play it at a reasonably high volume without being told to 'TURN OFF THAT NOISE' or being subjected to remarks like 'It sounds like World War Three has broken out'. However, I'm sure you understand that I'm normally what could be described as  'a man of action' and am not the type who usually sits around the house all day, drinking coffee, listening to my CDs, reading the newspaper and playing with the cat.

Apropos of nothing my wife announced earlier today that she likes the music of Samuel Barber - so I know what to put on the CD player when she is around.

I'm not sure if the Bryden Thomson VW recordings were on LP. I certainly did own an LP of his very fine recording of Bax's Fourth Symphony and Tintagel. As to complete VW cycles my favourites are both Boult cycles, Previn and Thomson. The Previn has great highs like symphonies 2,3,5 and 8 but I think that Thomson's cycle is more consistently excellent.

Stop Press!
An Internet search reveals that there certainly was an LP recording of Symphony 5 conducted by Bryden Thomson as it's available on the Discogs site and appears to be a 1987 release. Of course this could be complicated by the fact that some works like 'A London Symphony (1913)' conducted by Richard Hickox have only recently been released in vinyl format, presumably part of the vinyl revival (nice rhyme).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 12, 2019, 10:27:07 AM
I've just got the cd's,so you'll have to forgive me for getting a bit over excited! I like what I'm hearing,though......very much! I think No's 4,6 & 9 are the best of the (Thomson) cycle,I've heard,so far! I always enjoy hearing another Sinfonia Antartica,though!  I have thought of acquiring Vernon Handley's recording,once or twice;but it's paired with the Serenade!! ::) ;D
By the way! Is the Barber,your wife likes,by any chance,a certain,very famous & popular work?!! If it's one of his other (tougher!) works, (Symphony No 1,Medea?!!!) maybe you've finally got a convert to the cause,after all those,long,lonely (listening,wise) years?!! ??? :o ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 12, 2019, 10:29:44 AM
Barber's Violin Concerto would be another break through! Very romantic & tuneful! One of the most beautiful Violin Concertos,ever composed,imo!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 12, 2019, 11:44:02 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 12, 2019, 10:27:07 AM
I've just got the cd's,so you'll have to forgive me for getting a bit over excited! I like what I'm hearing,though......very much! I think No's 4,6 & 9 are the best of the (Thomson) cycle,I've heard,so far! I always enjoy hearing another Sinfonia Antartica,though!  I have thought of acquiring Vernon Handley's recording,once or twice;but it's paired with the Serenade!! ::) ;D
By the way! Is the Barber,your wife likes,by any chance,a certain,very famous & popular work?!! If it's one of his other (tougher!) works, (Symphony No 1,Medea?!!!) maybe you've finally got a convert to the cause,after all those,long,lonely (listening,wise) years?!! ??? :o ;D
It occurred to me that the famous Adagio might have appealed but, as you say, there are other very lyrical works by Barber including the Cello Concerto (which I prefer to the VC, great as that is) and also 'Night Flight' (from Symphony 2). So time will tell. Back 'on piste' I must listen to Bryden Thomson's recording of VW's Symphony 4, which I haven't heard for a long time. The problem is, as far as I can tell, is that BT (Bryden Thomson not British Telecom) was a bit of a 'House conductor' for the BBC and therefore this led to a tendency to under-appreciate him because of the ubiquity of his radio appearances for example. Also, like Hickox and Handley he died much too young. I have always looked out for and appreciated his recordings whether of the music of Martinu, VW, Walton or Bax, just to name a few.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 13, 2019, 12:09:31 AM
I wish RVW had composed more quartets. Great symphonic composers often matched up their symphonic output with string quartets, RVW chose not to.
Written soon after his return from a brief study with Ravel in Paris I listened closely after discussion in another thread of any influence. To my ears this quartet is typical of the composer. The cover image is a good fit of the work.

Greatly enjoyed the Aeolian SQ recording of this early quartet, both work and performance come up as fresh as new paint. Poor old Barrington-Coupe receives an endless kicking due to his misdemeanours and it is true he was a crook, but he also made some fine recordings, and this is one.   

(https://img.discogs.com/MYUXxmt4WlNWIbld5zc3sGjhszg=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-10253270-1494163111-3416.gif.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 12:17:58 AM
Quote from: Irons on April 13, 2019, 12:09:31 AM
I wish RVW had composed more quartets. Great symphonic composers often matched up their symphonic output with string quartets, RVW chose not to.
Written soon after his return from a brief study with Ravel in Paris I listened closely after discussion in another thread of any influence. To my ears this quartet is typical of the composer. The cover image is a good fit of the work.

Greatly enjoyed the Aeolian SQ recording of this early quartet, both work and performance come up as fresh as new paint. Poor old Barrington-Coupe receives an endless kicking due to his misdemeanours and it is true he was a crook, but he also made some fine recordings, and this is one.   

(https://img.discogs.com/MYUXxmt4WlNWIbld5zc3sGjhszg=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-10253270-1494163111-3416.gif.jpg)
What a wonderful old LP! Totally agree about the cover image as well. That now infamous company produced the first recording of Bax's 4th Symphony with Vernon Handley and the Guildford PO. When they released it on CD I ordered it along with the CD containing Bax's Symphonic Variations. I didn't realise at the time that they were two of the few genuine releases. Oddly enough my order, when it arrived, contained a freebie - one of the fraudulent recordings of Rachmaninov's piano concertos - very strange.
[/img]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 13, 2019, 12:48:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 12:17:58 AM
What a wonderful old LP! Totally agree about the cover image as well. That now infamous company produced the first recording of Bax's 4th Symphony with Vernon Handley and the Guildford PO. When they released it on CD I ordered it along with the CD containing Bax's Symphonic Variations. I didn't realise at the time that they were two of the few genuine releases. Oddly enough my order, when it arrived, contained a freebie - one of the fraudulent recordings of Rachmaninov's piano concertos - very strange.
[/img]

Possibly to tempt you to other 'Hatto' recordings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 01:28:14 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 13, 2019, 12:48:48 AM
Possibly to tempt you other 'Hatto' recordings.
OT
Who knows?
Of course the Bax Symphonic Legends was a genuine Hatto recording. At the time I thought that the inclusion of a bonus Rachmaninov CD was just a kind gesture, which it was. Only years later did I realise that it was one of the fraudulently released recordings. It is still a curious thing to have!


(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 13, 2019, 02:47:15 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 01:28:14 AM
OT
Who knows?
Of course the Bax Symphonic Legends was a genuine Hatto recording. At the time I thought that the inclusion of a bonus Rachmaninov CD was just a kind gesture, which it was. Only years later did I realise that it was one of the fraudulently released recordings. It is still a curious thing to have!


(//)

Thanks for posting the image of the Bax recording, it has stopped me wracking my brain. I remember seeing Hatto's name in the back of some Chandos albums where they listed other recordings you might like. I vaguely remember the conductor being Vernon Handley but not the work. When the scandal broke she was only a name to me, I never owned any of her recordings, real or imaginary.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 03:10:28 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 13, 2019, 02:47:15 AM
Thanks for posting the image of the Bax recording, it has stopped me wracking my brain. I remember seeing Hatto's name in the back of some Chandos albums where they listed other recordings you might like. I vaguely remember the conductor being Vernon Handley but not the work. When the scandal broke she was only a name to me, I never owned any of her recordings, real or imaginary.
My pleasure.
Of course there is a famous, genuine, old recording of Joyce Hatto performing Rachmaninov's Second Piano Concerto.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 13, 2019, 03:44:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 01:28:14 AM
OT
Symphonic Legends
(//)

Symphonic Variations or Winter Legends ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 03:59:23 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 13, 2019, 03:44:21 AM
Symphonic Variations or Winter Legends ;)

Oops, Symphonic Variations (as in the photos above).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 13, 2019, 04:29:45 AM
I wish she had recorded Winter Legends! Herself! In person!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 04:53:14 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 13, 2019, 04:29:45 AM
I wish she had recorded Winter Legends! Herself! In person!!
Yes, although there's an interesting historical recording performed by Harriet Cohen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 13, 2019, 04:58:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 04:53:14 AM
Yes, although there's an interesting historical recording performed by Harriet Cohen.

For the time being I will make do with Margaret Fingerhut and Bryden Thomson and the LPO
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 06:18:37 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 13, 2019, 04:58:39 AM
For the time being I will make do with Margaret Fingerhut and Bryden Thomson and the LPO
Yes, that's a fine CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 14, 2019, 04:34:26 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 12:17:58 AM
What a wonderful old LP! Totally agree about the cover image as well. That now infamous company produced the first recording of Bax's 4th Symphony with Vernon Handley and the Guildford PO. When they released it on CD I ordered it along with the CD containing Bax's Symphonic Variations. I didn't realise at the time that they were two of the few genuine releases. Oddly enough my order, when it arrived, contained a freebie - one of the fraudulent recordings of Rachmaninov's piano concertos - very strange.
[/img]

I avoid all Hatto recordings due to the fact they may not be by her. Did you watch the BBC biopic "Loving Miss Hatto" with a screenplay by Victoria Wood? I enjoyed it very much. Barrington-Coupe released quite a few legitimate recordings including a very good Elgar Quintet and a John Ireland Violin Sonata.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Dec13/Revolution_records.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 14, 2019, 05:47:30 AM
Quote from: Irons on April 14, 2019, 04:34:26 AM
I avoid all Hatto recordings due to the fact they may not be by her. Did you watch the BBC biopic "Loving Miss Hatto" with a screenplay by Victoria Wood? I enjoyed it very much. Barrington-Coupe released quite a few legitimate recordings including a very good Elgar Quintet and a John Ireland Violin Sonata.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Dec13/Revolution_records.htm
OT
Yes, it was very good and coincidentally I have just downloaded it from Amazon Prime. I know that the two CDs I have of Bax Symphony 4, Moeran's Serenade and Bax's Symphonic Variations performed by Joyce Hatto with the Guildford PO (like the Symphony 4) are genuine recordings, unlike the Rachmaninov freebie thrown in to my order (which I paid nothing for). It's a bit of a comic farce but also a tragedy as a misguided attempt by Barrington-Couple to enhance his wife's reputation actually ruined it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 14, 2019, 08:49:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 13, 2019, 04:53:14 AM
Yes, although there's an interesting historical recording performed by Harriet Cohen.
I like Harriet Cohen's recording of Winter Legends. The sound isn't exactly first rate;but it,arguably,adds a little atmosphere. I think it might be possible to make a better transfer,though? (Might there be another,off-air recording,lurking somewhere?) A pity Cohen couldn't have recorded it commercially. I remember seeing a cassette of the performance advertised in one of Michael G Thomas',ads,in Gramophone. He used to sell allot of Lp's of 'off-air' recordings;including the Aries Pirate label. I bought the Lp of Havergal Brian's third symphony,from him. I didn't know I was buying a pirated recording at the time;although I remember thinking it was odd that I hadn't seen any reviews!! I've got the APR 3 cd set of Harriet Cohen's commercial recordings. She was a talented musician;and her recordings of Bach are great. The booklet,with the set,suggets that,if she's been allowed to record The Well Tempered Clavier complete,she might be better known today;and for her musicianship,rather than her looks,love life,and being Bax's mistress. A fascinating set,for Baxian's;which includes some interesting photographs,by the way. The restorations are first class! Harriet Cohen was an excellent pianist.I wish she'd recorded more!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 14, 2019, 12:24:53 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 14, 2019, 08:49:16 AM
I like Harriet Cohen's recording of Winter Legends. The sound isn't exactly first rate;but it,arguably,adds a little atmosphere. I think it might be possible to make a better transfer,though? (Might there be another,off-air recording,lurking somewhere?) A pity Cohen couldn't have recorded it commercially. I remember seeing a cassette of the performance advertised in one of Michael G Thomas',ads,in Gramophone. He used to sell allot of Lp's of 'off-air' recordings;including the Aries Pirate label. I bought the Lp of Havergal Brian's third symphony,from him. I didn't know I was buying a pirated recording at the time;although I remember thinking it was odd that I hadn't seen any reviews!! I've got the APR 3 cd set of Harriet Cohen's commercial recordings. She was a talented musician;and her recordings of Bach are great. The booklet,with the set,suggets that,if she's been allowed to record The Well Tempered Clavier complete,she might be better known today;and for her musicianship,rather than her looks,love life,and being Bax's mistress. A fascinating set,for Baxian's;which includes some interesting photographs,by the way. The restorations are first class! Harriet Cohen was an excellent pianist.I wish she'd recorded more!!
Going back 'on piste' didn't Vaughan Williams compose his Piano Concerto for her? I may have got this wrong but I recall something about her hands not being large enough to cope with some of the demands of the work and her being quite possessive about anyone else performing it. I might have got this totally wrong.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 15, 2019, 02:19:44 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 14, 2019, 12:24:53 PM
Going back 'on piste' didn't Vaughan Williams compose his Piano Concerto for her? I may have got this wrong but I recall something about her hands not being large enough to cope with some of the demands of the work and her being quite possessive about anyone else performing it. I might have got this totally wrong.

The Piano Concerto was written for Harriet Cohen and she gave the first performance on February 1st 1933 with Boult conducting. RVW was worried the orchestration made it difficult for the soloist to be heard and gave Boult permission to thin it out as necessary. It was these concerns that led to the two-piano version. Some months later, after some revisions,  HC gave another performance in Strasbourg with Hermann Scherchen conducting.

RVW sent HC a letter discussing how long she could have exclusive rights but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of her being possessive. It seems few other pianists were keen to take the work up. It wasn't well-received by the critics who found it too percussive though Bartok, who heard it in Strasbourg admired it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 15, 2019, 03:42:38 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 15, 2019, 02:19:44 AM
The Piano Concerto was written for Harriet Cohen and she gave the first performance on February 1st 1933 with Boult conducting. RVW was worried the orchestration made it difficult for the soloist to be heard and gave Boult permission to thin it out as necessary. It was these concerns that led to the two-piano version. Some months later, after some revisions,  HC gave another performance in Strasbourg with Hermann Scherchen conducting.

RVW sent HC a letter discussing how long she could have exclusive rights but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of her being possessive. It seems few other pianists were keen to take the work up. It wasn't well-received by the critics who found it too percussive though Bartok, who heard it in Strasbourg admired it.

Thanks for clarifying this Biffo. I seem to recall that Bartok liked it, which I'm pleased to hear and apologies to HC. Maybe she was possessive towards Bax rather than to VW's Piano Concerto!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 15, 2019, 03:43:24 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 15, 2019, 02:19:44 AM

RVW sent HC a letter discussing how long she could have exclusive rights but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of her being possessive.

I don't know the specifics re the RVW concerto but Cohen most certainly was possessive regarding the Bax concertante works.  After Bax's death she was very loath to let anyone but her perform them which given a hand injury she could not do.  Also, the RVW revision was as much to do with the concerns re the solo writing as opposed to the thickness of the orchestral accompaniment.  Again, Cohen had relatively small hands which meant that physically she could not stretch many of the chords that both Bax & RVW wrote......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 15, 2019, 04:16:38 AM
The comments about the concerto being too percussive,are interesting! The,lovely,slow movement is anything but percussive,though. I think it's beautiful. For some reason,parts of it,reminded me of the Piano Concerto No 2,by Stanley Bate. I wonder if he could have ever heard,or seen the score,of the VW?!
Small hands,or not. And much has been made of that,over the years! My response to Harriet Cohen's playing,on the 3 cd,APR set,was,what a fine pianist! And they do say (Leopold Kohr,actually!) small is beautiful! ;D As to Bartok! It's good to hear that Bartok was an admirer! (He should know! ;D) I think it's probably the finest British Piano Concerto! But,maybe,that one is open to debate?!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 15, 2019, 06:35:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 15, 2019, 04:16:38 AM
The comments about the concerto being too percussive,are interesting! The,lovely,slow movement is anything but percussive,though. I think it's beautiful. For some reason,parts of it,reminded me of the Piano Concerto No 2,by Stanley Bate. I wonder if he could have ever heard,or seen the score,of the VW?!
Small hands,or not. And much has been made of that,over the years! My response to Harriet Cohen's playing,on the 3 cd,APR set,was,what a fine pianist! And they do say (Leopold Kohr,actually!) small is beautiful! ;D As to Bartok! It's good to hear that Bartok was an admirer! (He should know! ;D) I think it's probably the finest British Piano Concerto! But,maybe,that one is open to debate?!!

The John Ireland PC is often said to be the best.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 15, 2019, 07:32:47 AM
Quote from: Irons on April 15, 2019, 06:35:25 AM
The John Ireland PC is often said to be the best.

I think that the Ireland is possibly more 'polished' but I prefer the VW especially in the version for two pianos. I enjoy the Ireland as well. I also rate the Concerto for Two Pianos by Lennox Berkeley and the Concerto No.2 by Alan Rawsthorne very highly as well as both the ones by Bliss
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on April 15, 2019, 08:07:26 AM
The Tippett is certainly up there as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 15, 2019, 09:06:48 AM
Quote from: Irons on April 15, 2019, 06:35:25 AM
The John Ireland PC is often said to be the best.
I'm a bit of a fan of the John Ireland;and I'd be happy to go along with that! :) I've put the Tippett on one side,for another listen! I  should point out;I'm not really that keen on comparisons. I was just making a point!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 15, 2019, 09:14:00 AM
Incidentally,I've got more VW in the post! Bryden Thomson's recordings of the eighth symphony,and third. And not content with decimating ,what's left of my bank account,there; ::) :( ;D I also bought the Dutton cd of Boult,Gramophone premieres. The cd includes his 1946 recording of Job.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 15, 2019, 10:01:39 AM
A friend who's opinion I respect highly is a great fan of the two piano RVW concerto. I have the Vronsky and Babin recording and must spend some time with it. Like cilgwyn I am big admirer of John Ireland but although probably his most famous work I do not find the piano concerto typical of him.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 15, 2019, 01:06:30 PM
Quote from: Biffo on April 15, 2019, 02:19:44 AM
It wasn't well-received by the critics who found it too percussive though Bartok, who heard it in Strasbourg admired it.

There's a great story that Bartok come to England some time in the 20s or 30s and dropped in on Herbert Howells. Howells asked him to play something Hungarian, so he played a Hungarian dance that had the plates rattling in the kitchen. Afterwards he asked Howells to play something English and Howells sat down and played some little fancy or other by Farnaby, far quieter!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 15, 2019, 01:13:17 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 15, 2019, 01:06:30 PM
There's a great story that Bartok come to England some time in the 20s or 30s and dropped in on Herbert Howells. Howells asked him to play something Hungarian, so he played a Hungarian dance that had the plates rattling in the kitchen. Afterwards he asked Howells to play something English and Howells sat down and played some little fancy or other by Farnaby, far quieter!

If Howells wasn't such a sissy he could have thought of something English to rattle the plates too...

:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 15, 2019, 01:17:38 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 15, 2019, 01:13:17 PM
If Howells wasn't such a sissy he could have thought of something English to rattle the plates too...

:)

Bartok should have met up with Cyril Scott. He would have rattled said plates!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 15, 2019, 02:07:37 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 15, 2019, 09:14:00 AM
Incidentally,I've got more VW in the post! Bryden Thomson's recordings of the eighth symphony,and third. And not content with decimating ,what's left of my bank account,there; ::) :( ;D I also bought the Dutton cd of Boult,Gramophone premieres. The cd includes his 1946 recording of Job.
Excellent. I've been involved in a discussion on the Musicweb bulletin board about Bryden Thomson (my life is so exciting). Anyway one of the contributors to the discussion rated Bryden Thomson's recording of Vaughan Williams's 8th Symphony as the greatest one ever - so, I'm sure that you'll enjoy your new purchase. That Boult premiere recording of 'Job' is excellent and I like the Bliss Music for Strings as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 16, 2019, 02:08:20 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 15, 2019, 02:07:37 PM
Excellent. I've been involved in a discussion on the Musicweb bulletin board about Bryden Thomson (my life is so exciting). Anyway one of the contributors to the discussion rated Bryden Thomson's recording of Vaughan Williams's 8th Symphony as the greatest one ever - so, I'm sure that you'll enjoy your new purchase. That Boult premiere recording of 'Job' is excellent and I like the Bliss Music for Strings as well.
It arrived  (Thomson's VW Sym Eight) this morning;but you'll ,no doubt,be horrified to know that I felt compelled to listen through a small pile of operas,first!! :o ;D I will be coming to it,shortly,though!! :) I'm looking forward to hearing the Oboe Concerto,as well! I even enjoyed the Concerto Accademica,in Bryden Thomson's recording! (It has previously made little impression!) He makes everything sound so,great! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 16, 2019, 10:47:47 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 16, 2019, 02:08:20 PM
It arrived  (Thomson's VW Sym Eight) this morning;but you'll ,no doubt,be horrified to know that I felt compelled to listen through a small pile of operas,first!! :o ;D I will be coming to it,shortly,though!! :) I'm looking forward to hearing the Oboe Concerto,as well! I even enjoyed the Concerto Accademica,in Bryden Thomson's recording! (It has previously made little impression!) He makes everything sound so,great! :)
Well, I'll forgive you about the operas cilgwyn as they are clearly being simply played as the aperitif to Vaughan Williams's 8th Symphony. My new cheapo Karajan boxed-set featuring Honegger's 2nd and 3rd symphonies in a mini-version of their original LP sleeve, featuring a nice image of Honegger rather than (thank goodness) yet another picture of Karajan, contains a disc of 'Opera Intermezzi' which will not be getting much play time here. The other CDs of Mahler, Sibelius and Honegger are of much more interest to me and I might even give the Richard Strauss one a spin. I have no objection to 'Concerto Accademica' but find it more 'pleasant enough' rather than anything special. It's probably suitable music to have on, for example, while you're doing the washing up. The Oboe Concerto, however, is a very fine work. I recall and interview with Evelyn Rothwell, the oboist and wife of Barbirolli saying how highly she regarded the work. I'll look forward to hearing your views of your new Bryden Thomson VW CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 17, 2019, 04:08:37 AM
Actually,I was just having another listen to some opera recordings,before deciding whether to take them to a charity shop,to free up some,much needed,room here! I wish I hadn't! Now I'm wanting to keep some of them!! :( ;D Actually,I wouldn't go out of my way to listen to the Concerto Accademica,on it's own. It,just sounds,a bit lusher,in the Thomson recording. The Chandos sound probably has something to do with it? And it comes as a nice contrast,after the turbulence of the Fourth. Imho,anyway! If it was the Serenade or Wasps Overture,I'd probably just turn it off!! ;D
Yes,how many photos of the Great Maestro,Karajan,do you need?!! Answer: none! ;D Great hair,though!! :laugh: Of course,the Oboe Concerto is paired with the third symphony;which I haven't got yet! The eighth symphony;which I will put on,before long;has some very,nice fill-ups (again,horrible word! Must find an alternative!) which I am looking forward to hearing!
I am 'with you',on the Serenade,and the Wasps Overture (in that order!). I would,definitely,prefer to listen to the Concerto Accademica,to either of those works. The addition of the SErenade to Handley's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica,puts me off buying it,every time I even think about buying it! I think Towards the Unknown Region,is a much better choice of........(Ahem ;D!),fill-up!

I must admit to being,increasingly,tempted by Bryden Thomson's recordings of the Elgar symphonies. And I wouldn't mind hearing his Enigma Variations;which has a nice,rarity,as a fill-up..............additional item.....bonus?!! Okay,let's try,again!! I wouldn't mind hearing his recording of the Enigma Variations,which is paired with a delightful rarity (I haven't heard,it,really!),The Sanguine Fan! I'll buy the cd with the nice picture on the front,of course! (I think there's one with a boring,purple,cover?!)

By the way (vandermolen) do you like the Pomp and Circumstance Marches,at all? I must admit,haven't heard them for a while! Actually,this the wrong thread! But I think I will stock up with them? At present,I'm wavering between,the Boult,paired with the Variations;or Barbirolli,with Cockaign and Froissart! Or maybe,both?!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 17, 2019, 04:36:55 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 17, 2019, 04:08:37 AM
By the way (vandermolen) do you like the Pomp and Circumstance Marches,at all? I must admit,haven't heard them for a while! Actually,this the wrong thread! But I think I will stock up with them? At present,I'm wavering between,the Boult,paired with the Variations;or Barbirolli,with Cockaign and Froissart! Or maybe,both?!!

Menuhin's set of the P&C marches (and other works in similar vein) is very good indeed - just the right swagger and suitably opulent sound

[asin]B00000DNYS[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 17, 2019, 04:37:18 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 17, 2019, 04:08:37 AM
Actually,I was just having another listen to some opera recordings,before deciding whether to take them to a charity shop,to free up some,much needed,room here! I wish I hadn't! Now I'm wanting to keep some of them!! :( ;D Actually,I wouldn't go out of my way to listen to the Concerto Accademica,on it's own. It,just sounds,a bit lusher,in the Thomson recording. The Chandos sound probably has something to do with it? And it comes as a nice contrast,after the turbulence of the Fourth. Imho,anyway! If it was the Serenade or Wasps Overture,I'd probably just turn it off!! ;D
Yes,how many photos of the Great Maestro,Karajan,do you need?!! Answer: none! ;D Great hair,though!! :laugh: Of course,the Oboe Concerto is paired with the third symphony;which I haven't got yet! The eighth symphony;which I will put on,before long;has some very,nice fill-ups (again,horrible word! Must find an alternative!) which I am looking forward to hearing!
I am 'with you',on the Serenade,and the Wasps Overture (in that order!). I would,definitely,prefer to listen to the Concerto Accademica,to either of those works. The addition of the SErenade to Handley's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica,puts me off buying it,every time I even think about buying it! I think Towards the Unknown Region,is a much better choice of........(Ahem ;D!),fill-up!

I must admit to being,increasingly,tempted by Bryden Thomson's recordings of the Elgar symphonies. And I wouldn't mind hearing his Enigma Variations;which has a nice,rarity,as a fill-up..............additional item.....bonus?!! Okay,let's try,again!! I wouldn't mind hearing his recording of the Enigma Variations,which is paired with a delightful rarity (I haven't heard,it,really!),The Sanguine Fan! I'll buy the cd with the nice picture on the front,of course! (I think there's one with a boring,purple,cover?!)

By the way (vandermolen) do you like the Pomp and Circumstance Marches,at all? I must admit,haven't heard them for a while! Actually,this the wrong thread! But I think I will stock up with them? At present,I'm wavering between,the Boult,paired with the Variations;or Barbirolli,with Cockaign and Froissart! Or maybe,both?!!
You and I cigwyn must be the only two here who don't like the 'Serenade to Music' - a cloying and self-congratulatory work (I'm heading to my bomb shelter right now! 8)) I used to listen to Elgar much more than I do now. I love all three symphonies but find the Enigma Variations, great as they are, over familiar and sometimes I find a stuffy complacency about some of Elgar's music which is unappealing - however this is a reflection on me rather than Sir Edward, whose museum/home it was a great pleasure to visit. His Cello Concerto is my daughter's favourite piece of classical music and it was great to hear it at the Proms (with VW's Dona Nobis Pacem and a very moving work by the tragically short-lived Lili Boulanger) - it was a great evening. Yes, I do like Pomp and Circumstance marches, especially No.4 if I remember correctly. I'm especially fond of an LP on Decca 'Ace of Diamonds' (those were the days) coupled with 'Things to Come' Film Suite by Bliss. Both scores were conducted by Sir Arthur Bliss himself. Did I tell you cigwyn that my uncle, who worked for the Performing Rights Society found himself next to Sir Arthur (who was the President of the PRS) in a urinal? My uncle asked Sir Arthur for his autograph to which the latter, genially replied 'certainly, as soon as I get my hands free old boy'. Anyway, that Ace of Diamonds LP (I'll see if I can find it in a moment) had an atmospheric cover, linking both works, showing a member of the Household Cavalry transforming into an ominous gas-masked figure.

Here it is:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 17, 2019, 05:50:48 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 15, 2019, 02:19:44 AM
The Piano Concerto was written for Harriet Cohen and she gave the first performance on February 1st 1933 with Boult conducting. RVW was worried the orchestration made it difficult for the soloist to be heard and gave Boult permission to thin it out as necessary. It was these concerns that led to the two-piano version. Some months later, after some revisions,  HC gave another performance in Strasbourg with Hermann Scherchen conducting.

RVW sent HC a letter discussing how long she could have exclusive rights but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of her being possessive. It seems few other pianists were keen to take the work up. It wasn't well-received by the critics who found it too percussive though Bartok, who heard it in Strasbourg admired it.
I've just been looking through the book of letters by Vaughan Williams and it is clear in one of them that Harriet Cohen was a bit miffed by the two piano version being arranged without any consultation with her. It does seem that she was being a bit possessive about the concerto as VW pointed out to her that most soloists are happy with the premiere performance and that HC had had a monopoly over the work for a year.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 17, 2019, 09:12:42 AM
Oh,I don't know?! I still like the Enigma Variations! I should switch to the Elgar thread to reply,though! Gerontius is the,great work,that I can't stand! I almost agree with what Hurwitz has to say about it,on his website!! The excerpts recorded,"live",in the twenties,with Elgar conducting,are quite moving,though! The Violin and Cello Concertos do nothing for me,either! A sad case,aren't I?!! ::) I'd far rather listen to the Violin Concertos of Moeran or Brian. At this point,I've got to admit I'm not a big fan of violin concertos;but there are a couple I enjoy! Oh,and Holbrooke's,"Grasshopper"! (Again,not the one in Kung Fu!! ::) ;D).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 17, 2019, 01:41:02 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 17, 2019, 09:12:42 AM
Oh,I don't know?! I still like the Enigma Variations! I should switch to the Elgar thread to reply,though! Gerontius is the,great work,that I can't stand! I almost agree with what Hurwitz has to say about it,on his website!! The excerpts recorded,"live",in the twenties,with Elgar conducting,are quite moving,though! The Violin and Cello Concertos do nothing for me,either! A sad case,aren't I?!! ::) I'd far rather listen to the Violin Concertos of Moeran or Brian. At this point,I've got to admit I'm not a big fan of violin concertos;but there are a couple I enjoy! Oh,and Holbrooke's,"Grasshopper"! (Again,not the one in Kung Fu!! ::) ;D).
I agree with you cilgwyn about Moeran and Brian. However one of the great 'unsung' violin concertos, and I use those terms deliberately is the one by William Alwyn. Do you know it? If not you must hear it. There are even two recordings on Chandos and Naxos, both equally good in my opinion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 17, 2019, 02:09:58 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 17, 2019, 09:12:42 AM
Oh,I don't know?! I still like the Enigma Variations! I should switch to the Elgar thread to reply,though! Gerontius is the,great work,that I can't stand! I almost agree with what Hurwitz has to say about it,on his website!! The excerpts recorded,"live",in the twenties,with Elgar conducting,are quite moving,though! The Violin and Cello Concertos do nothing for me,either! A sad case,aren't I?!! ::) I'd far rather listen to the Violin Concertos of Moeran or Brian. At this point,I've got to admit I'm not a big fan of violin concertos;but there are a couple I enjoy! Oh,and Holbrooke's,"Grasshopper"! (Again,not the one in Kung Fu!! ::) ;D).
I can't get enough VVW, I can't stand Elgar, in any piece. The music is so dense, like it can't breath. The best example of this I can give is the beginning of the violin concerto, the main theme is just stuffy to the bone. Then it goes on for 50 minutes. Probably the most "bearable" is the Cello Concerto.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 17, 2019, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 17, 2019, 02:09:58 PM
I can't get enough VVW, I can't stand Elgar, in any piece. The music is so dense, like it can't breath. The best example of this I can give is the beginning of the violin concerto, the main theme is just stuffy to the bone. Then it goes on for 50 minutes. Probably the most "bearable" is the Cello Concerto.

If Elgarian were here, he'd most certainly set you straight. You can bank on that. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2019, 02:39:46 AM
 ;D Yes,I'm sure he would! But I'm not knocking him! He was the first major English composer for two hundred years (Although,I prefer Parry & Stanford!). That said! ;D Falstaff,is another one,that doesn't do much for me! I remember someone describing the comic bits as 'cartoon' music! I bought the Boult cd of the Enigma Variations,yesterday;so I wouldn't have to listen to it! (On the Barbirolli cd) I do like his Pomp & Circumstance Marches;with which,Boult's recording,is paired. And like,vandermolen;particularly No 4! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2019, 03:15:48 AM
His light music is lovely,though! And I do,tend to,like Elgar,when he's doing the conducting! I think,his own recordings of his music,are the best,ever! Imho!! ;D His Introduction & Allegro,Serenade are nice,too. And,I love the Wand of Youth & Nursery Suites. Particularly,as recorded by Elgar and Bryden Thomson! But,Gerontius & those Concertos?!! ::) ??? :( ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2019, 04:47:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 18, 2019, 03:15:48 AM
His light music is lovely,though! And I do,tend to,like Elgar,when he's doing the conducting! I think,his own recordings of his music,are the best,ever! Imho!! ;D His Introduction & Allegro,Serenade are nice,too. And,I love the Wand of Youth & Nursery Suites. Particularly,as recorded by Elgar and Bryden Thomson! But,Gerontius & those Concertos?!! ::) ??? :( ;D
Yes, I've always enjoyed Elgar's recordings of his own works - especially the two symphonies. I originally had them on World Record Club LPs. I liked the Prelude to The Kingdom as well. VW was considered to be a not very good conductor although the few existing recordings suggest otherwise.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 18, 2019, 07:10:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 17, 2019, 08:41:03 PM
If Elgarian were here, he'd most certainly set you straight. You can bank on that. :)

There is, me! I am quite shocked at the apathy towards Elgar here. I'm not sure I am the right person to set anyone straight or  have any wish to do so. I love Elgar and my life would be poorer without his music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 18, 2019, 07:13:19 AM
Quote from: Irons on April 18, 2019, 07:10:06 AM
There is, me! I am quite shocked at the apathy towards Elgar here. I'm not sure I am the right person to set anyone straight or  have any wish to do so. I love Elgar and my life would be poorer without his music.

Ditto
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 18, 2019, 08:56:31 AM
Quote from: Irons on April 18, 2019, 07:10:06 AM
There is, me! I am quite shocked at the apathy towards Elgar here. I'm not sure I am the right person to set anyone straight or  have any wish to do so. I love Elgar and my life would be poorer without his music.

I'm sure Elgarian would agree that no one is required to like Elgar's music. His extremely interesting commentary was a major factor in my coming to appreciate Elgar's Violin Concerto (along with putting Kennedy's recording aside and listening to Hilary Hahn). Same for the Violin Sonata.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2019, 09:08:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 18, 2019, 04:47:52 AM
Yes, I've always enjoyed Elgar's recordings of his own works - especially the two symphonies. I originally had them on World Record Club LPs. I liked the Prelude to The Kingdom as well. VW was considered to be a not very good conductor although the few existing recordings suggest otherwise.
(//)
Yes,I enjoy all Elgar's recordings. I even like his acoustic recordings! I love listening to them! :)
I must add! The Enigma Variations is one of my favourite orchestral works by a British composer. I like his symphonies. His Suites. The Introduction & Allegro,Serenade,Cockaigne,In the South,the Pomp & Circumstance Marches,The Starlight Express & all his lighter music. I just don't enjoy the choral works,the Violin & Cello Concertos. And Falstaff,much. Although,I do like it,in the composers own recording! (I didn't know I had to like everything!)

As to Vaughan Williams! I'm with vandermolen on the Serenade & Wasps! The operas have some lovely music;but they aren't him at his best,imho! I recently 'downgraded' them,by taking them out of their cases,and putting the cd's in a box,to save some room (rather than take them to a charity shop!) ! I quite like The Poisoned Kiss,for some reason!! And I like The Pilgrims Progress! I've always avoided Riders to the Sea,like the blazes;because I don't like operas with unhappy endings!! ::) ;D

Conversely,I don't think there's anything I,don't like,by Holst!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2019, 10:29:10 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 18, 2019, 09:08:55 AM
Yes,I enjoy all Elgar's recordings. I even like his acoustic recordings! I love listening to them! :)
I must add! The Enigma Variations is one of my favourite orchestral works by a British composer. I like his symphonies. His Suites. The Introduction & Allegro,Serenade,Cockaigne,In the South,the Pomp & Circumstance Marches,The Starlight Express & all his lighter music. I just don't enjoy the choral works,the Violin & Cello Concertos. And Falstaff,much. Although,I do like it,in the composers own recording! (I didn't know I had to like everything!)

As to Vaughan Williams! I'm with vandermolen on the Serenade & Wasps! The operas have some lovely music;but they aren't him at his best,imho! I recently 'downgraded' them,by taking them out of their cases,and putting the cd's in a box,to save some room (rather than take them to a charity shop!) ! I quite like The Poisoned Kiss,for some reason!! And I like The Pilgrims Progress! I've always avoided Riders to the Sea,like the blazes;because I don't like operas with unhappy endings!! ::) ;D

Conversely,I don't think there's anything I,don't like,by Holst!!

'The Pilgrim's Progress' is possibly VW's greatest work and I think that 'Riders to the Sea' is one of his finest, with its echoes of the Sixth Symphony. I was lucky to see a live (semi-staged)version of 'Riders to the Sea' a year or two ago - I think it's a marvellous work and I rarely listen to any opera. Seeing 'Pilgrim's Progress' on my birthday some years ago was one of the great musical experiences of my life. I'm with on Holst, by the way, cilgwyn. Never heard 'The Poisoned Kiss'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 19, 2019, 04:44:36 AM
I rather like this historic CD featuring Boult's first recording of the 6th Symphony (with original Scherzo), unusually combined with the film music.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 19, 2019, 04:47:09 AM
The Poisoned Kiss was,of course,VW's attempt to emulate Gilbert & Sullivan! Unfortunately,like every British composer who had tried to copy their formula,he didn't have a Gilbert!! Holst's opera,The Perfect Fool,is very similar,in some ways;with all the hocus-pocus,magical elements! And I suppose,you could Cyril Scott's The Alchemist;of which excerpts were recorded,some years ago;by the BBC. Oh,and Holbrooke's ,The Enchanter (also,known as,The Wizard). Britten had the dramatic instinct that VW,Delius and all the other,also-rans,British operas,lacked! Peter Grimes feels so tightly structured,after listening to,all the efforts,of those,other,composers. The only thing he doesn't have,which some of those failed opera composers have,in buckets;is warmth!! I find his operas interesting to listen to. I can't say,I love any of them,though! Strangely enough,If I had to pick out one,opera composed,in the years,before Britten put British opera on the map;it might actually be The Tigers,by Havergal Brian?!!  A strange,eccentric,surreal,dream like opera;which seems to unfold,via some,strange,underlying,logic. I often wish it could be staged! I think it would arouse some interest?!! I would also single out,Holst's,rather beautiful,Savitri. A concise little opera. Although,the subject matter ensures that I don't listen to it,that often!! But my favourite opera,before Britten (and after Purcell's,sole,true opera)and besides,The Tigers;is probably,Delius' A Village Romeo & Juliet. For all it might lack,in dramatic cohesion;it has an odd,slightly mysterious atmosphere,which appeals to me. I don't listen to it,that often! But I do enjoy it,when I hear it! And yes,I know it,bores the socks off,some (allot of?) people!! ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 19, 2019, 04:49:21 AM
And it does have a gloomy ending! ::) :( ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 19, 2019, 06:54:53 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 19, 2019, 04:47:09 AM
The Poisoned Kiss was,of course,VW's attempt to emulate Gilbert & Sullivan! Unfortunately,like every British composer who had tried to copy their formula,he didn't have a Gilbert!! Holst's opera,The Perfect Fool,is very similar,in some ways;with all the hocus-pocus,magical elements! And I suppose,you could Cyril Scott's The Alchemist;of which excerpts were recorded,some years ago;by the BBC. Oh,and Holbrooke's ,The Enchanter (also,known as,The Wizard). Britten had the dramatic instinct that VW,Delius and all the other,also-rans,British operas,lacked! Peter Grimes feels so tightly structured,after listening to,all the efforts,of those,other,composers. The only thing he doesn't have,which some of those failed opera composers have,in buckets;is warmth!! I find his operas interesting to listen to. I can't say,I love any of them,though! Strangely enough,If I had to pick out one,opera composed,in the years,before Britten put British opera on the map;it might actually be The Tigers,by Havergal Brian?!!  A strange,eccentric,surreal,dream like opera;which seems to unfold,via some,strange,underlying,logic. I often wish it could be staged! I think it would arouse some interest?!! I would also single out,Holst's,rather beautiful,Savitri. A concise little opera. Although,the subject matter ensures that I don't listen to it,that often!! But my favourite opera,before Britten (and after Purcell's,sole,true opera)and besides,The Tigers;is probably,Delius' A Village Romeo & Juliet. For all it might lack,in dramatic cohesion;it has an odd,slightly mysterious atmosphere,which appeals to me. I don't listen to it,that often! But I do enjoy it,when I hear it! And yes,I know it,bores the socks off,some (allot of?) people!! ;D

A most interesting post. Opera is an area of music I steer well clear of, although funnily enough the one time I did attend an opera - ENO The Magic Flute - I enjoyed the evening enormously. Opera by an English composer has an advantage, they are singing in English! I have had my finger on the trigger quite a few times for two works -  one you mention, the Delius A Village Romeo and Juliet and also Hugh the Drover by RVW. I do worry I don't have the attention span for opera even if, as the two mentioned, the subject matter appeals. I agree Britten's music can lack warmth, I see this as a positive not a negative, but for opera, and arguably Britten is the greatest English opera composer, he would be a step too far for a novice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on April 19, 2019, 09:04:18 AM
I must admit to being a bit thick here;in that,I don't really bother with the librettos! :-[ ::) A cursory glance at the plot;and an occasional peek,at the libretto (if there is one?) to see where I am,or what's going on,and that's about it! I usually find opera librettos,pretty tedious,to plough through! I just like the sounds the singer's and the orchestra are making. Also,if I sat there,with my head in a libretto,nothing much would ever get done! Particularly,if I'm going through a pile of the things!! Yes,I think you're right about Britten? Peter Grimes is pretty tuneful,and approachable,though;for an opera of that period! Tuneful enough for me to,even sing,some bits! It's quite good fun,trying to imitate,Pears,while doing so! I like the excerpts,that were released on 78's (and latterly,on cd;and I believe,Lp?) particularly. I think it's my favourite recording. If only they could have recorded it complete! I also like the,accompanying,abridged,Lucretia! I think my favourite Britten operas are,The Turn of the Screw,The Rape of Lucretia and Death in Venice;with all those interesting sonorities. With Britten,even when the vocal line is declamatory,the interesting timbres and sonorities maintain my attention.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2019, 11:40:38 PM
Some appropriate listening for Easter Sunday as the fist of the Five Mystical Songs is 'Easter', although my favourites are the beautiful 'Love Bade Me Welcome' and the inspiriting 'Antiphon', which was one of my first encounters with VW's music after my mother was given it on a King's College, Cambridge sampler LP one Christmas (my brother and I flew into the living room from opposite ends of my parent's flat to find out what the music was). This is another example of an excellent recording by Bryden Thomson featuring two of my favourite Vaughan Williams works (posted on the listening thread as well):
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: knight66 on April 21, 2019, 03:22:27 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 19, 2019, 09:04:18 AM
I must admit to being a bit thick here;in that,I don't really bother with the librettos! :-[ ::) A cursory glance at the plot;and an occasional peek,at the libretto (if there is one?) to see where I am,or what's going on,and that's about it! I usually find opera librettos,pretty tedious,to plough through! I just like the sounds the singer's and the orchestra are making. Also,if I sat there,with my head in a libretto,nothing much would ever get done! Particularly,if I'm going through a pile of the things!! Yes,I think you're right about Britten? Peter Grimes is pretty tuneful,and approachable,though;for an opera of that period! Tuneful enough for me to,even sing,some bits! It's quite good fun,trying to imitate,Pears,while doing so! I like the excerpts,that were released on 78's (and latterly,on cd;and I believe,Lp?) particularly. I think it's my favourite recording. If only they could have recorded it complete! I also like the,accompanying,abridged,Lucretia! I think my favourite Britten operas are,The Turn of the Screw,The Rape of Lucretia and Death in Venice;with all those interesting sonorities. With Britten,even when the vocal line is declamatory,the interesting timbres and sonorities maintain my attention.

I do find lots of sly humour and warmth, compassion and plenty of emotion as well as visceral pain in Peter Grimes. That is expressed in the music as well as the words. I think of it as an opera for grown-ups. The libretto is poetic and dramatic and it does not indulge in endless repetitions. I also suggest it is perfectly fine for the inexperienced opera goer. It depends what the ear can cope with. For me the best version is Davis with Vickers and Harper.

Poor RVW, I will have to think of something to say about his music.

Mike
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 22, 2019, 10:20:58 AM
Quote from: knight66 on April 21, 2019, 03:22:27 AM
I do find lots of sly humour and warmth, compassion and plenty of emotion as well as visceral pain in Peter Grimes. That is expressed in the music as well as the words. I think of it as an opera for grown-ups. The libretto is poetic and dramatic and it does not indulge in endless repetitions. I also suggest it is perfectly fine for the inexperienced opera goer. It depends what the ear can cope with. For me the best version is Davis with Vickers and Harper.

Poor RVW, I will have to think of something to say about his music.

Mike

Peter Grimes is a great work, melodic, approachable and challenging.

The booklet vs no-booklet dichotomy drove me to opera on video (DVD or preferable Blue Ray).  Neither listening with my nose buried in a booklet nor listening and having no idea what is going on was entirely satisfactory. Subtitles are the best compromise. Of course, you often have to contend with bizarre "artistic" productions, and there are recordings I might want to listen to that are not on video...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 03:09:34 AM
This CD was very well reviewed in the Sunday Times today. I haven't received it yet but look forward to doing so:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 28, 2019, 03:24:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 03:09:34 AM
This CD was very well reviewed in the Sunday Times today. I haven't received it yet but look forward to doing so:
(//)

An interesting selection though I think I have some of the works in one form or another. According to Presto it will be released May 17.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 03:59:28 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 28, 2019, 03:24:45 AM
An interesting selection though I think I have some of the works in one form or another. According to Presto it will be released May 17.
Yes, that's what Amazon UK says as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 28, 2019, 05:37:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 03:59:28 AM
Yes, that's what Amazon UK says as well.

I have ordered it from Amazon along with some other household items and got free postage. The postage on Presto is prohibitive.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 07:34:23 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 28, 2019, 05:37:23 AM
I have ordered it from Amazon along with some other household items and got free postage. The postage on Presto is prohibitive.

Yes, I have Amazon Prime which is worth it in the end if you buy enough stuff from them.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2019, 07:42:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 07:34:23 AM
Yes, I have Amazon Prime which is worth it in the end if you buy enough stuff from them.  ::)
You can also give your Prime Membership (minus the video and music portions) to another person as an added bonus.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 02:33:55 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2019, 07:42:33 AM
You can also give your Prime Membership (minus the video and music portions) to another person as an added bonus.
How can you do that? It's linked to my Amazon account. Having said that my daughter hacks into my Times newspaper membership area  ::).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2019, 03:34:46 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 02:33:55 PM
How can you do that? It's linked to my Amazon account. Having said that my daughter hacks into my Times newspaper membership area  ::).
If you go to "Accounts and Lists"---> "Your Prime Membership"

Then go the bottom and click on "Share Your Prime Benefits".

For many yrs my sister had a Prime account and she shared it with me which allowed me to get the free 2 day shipping, but no videos or music.
Now I have my own.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 09:58:07 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2019, 03:34:46 PM
If you go to "Accounts and Lists"---> "Your Prime Membership"

Then go the bottom and click on "Share Your Prime Benefits".

For many yrs my sister had a Prime account and she shared it with me which allowed me to get the free 2 day shipping, but no videos or music.
Now I have my own.
Oh, I didn't know that. Thank you.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 29, 2019, 12:46:08 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2019, 03:34:46 PM
If you go to "Accounts and Lists"---> "Your Prime Membership"

Then go the bottom and click on "Share Your Prime Benefits".

For many yrs my sister had a Prime account and she shared it with me which allowed me to get the free 2 day shipping, but no videos or music.
Now I have my own.

Thanks also.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 30, 2019, 05:08:11 PM
There is much to admire about the new onyx (sorry guys I have bad vision and can't fully see the label) of Symphony No. 7 an No. 9.  I LOVE the slow tempo!!   Very much what the work needs.  I still "hear it" slower and with way more dynamic range.  This is a fantastic release but I hear the music better than how it was presented here.  It needs hyper dynamics.  Great release.  Fantastic version of the music.  But not perfect. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 30, 2019, 09:33:53 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 30, 2019, 05:08:11 PM
There is much to admire about the new onyx (sorry guys I have bad vision and can't fully see the label) of Symphony No. 7 an No. 9.  I LOVE the slow tempo!!   Very much what the work needs.  I still "hear it" slower and with way more dynamic range.  This is a fantastic release but I hear the music better than how it was presented here.  It needs hyper dynamics.  Great release.  Fantastic version of the music.  But not perfect.
How very interesting to know. Thank you. I'm very pleased as I've been disappointed by earlier releases in that series. Do your comments relate to Sinfonia Antartica, Symphony 9 or to both works? I'm really looking forward to receiving this CD now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 01, 2019, 06:12:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 30, 2019, 09:33:53 PM
How very interesting to know. Thank you. I'm very pleased as I've been disappointed by earlier releases in that series. Do your comments relate to Sinfonia Antartica, Symphony 9 or to both works? I'm really looking forward to receiving this CD now.

Both are fine and superior here than on Chandos/Sir Andrew Davis.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 01, 2019, 06:39:14 AM
I have the Andrew Davis discs of Antartica and No 9 (coupled with Job) and think them fine performances. As the onyx issue stands I won't be making any comparisons except, possibly, No 9 if I can get it on Spotify.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 01, 2019, 06:52:40 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 01, 2019, 06:12:53 AM
Both are fine and superior here than on Chandos/Sir Andrew Davis.

There's a facebook group dedicated to RVW and in the last couple of days this new Manze recording (which I have NOT heard) has been discussed and the general opinion seems to have been strongly negative - laboured and slow being the consensus especially in No.9.  This recording is already on Spotify so it might be a "try-before-you-buy" scenario.......  Does seem odd to include the superscriptions as part of the main track....  Out of curiosity just sampled via Spotify a bit of the "Landscape" movement.... is the organ dubbed from the Anglican cathedral - it sounds like that organ and has a different acoustic around it......?  Quite liked the weighty epic feel though actually!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 01, 2019, 07:09:24 AM
You beat me to it! I have just listened to No 9 on Spotify and at just over 40 mins it is far too slow for me. Sargent took around 31 mins at the world premiere (available on YouTube), Boult around 34 mins on both his recordings.

I sampled Antartica; Timothy West has a lovely speaking voice but is redundant. The whole album is a definite dud as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 01, 2019, 07:51:07 AM
Interesting comments. I still look forward to receiving my copy so that I can 'stick my oar in'.
Today a CD arrived featuring Alexander Mosolov's 'Tractors arrival at the Kolkhoz'. Can't wait to hear this one!
8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 01, 2019, 10:31:12 PM
Review of Bryden Thomson's concerto set:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/May/VW_concertos_CHAN9262.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 02, 2019, 12:16:40 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 01, 2019, 06:52:40 AM
There's a facebook group dedicated to RVW and in the last couple of days this new Manze recording (which I have NOT heard) has been discussed and the general opinion seems to have been strongly negative - laboured and slow being the consensus especially in No.9.  This recording is already on Spotify so it might be a "try-before-you-buy" scenario.......  Does seem odd to include the superscriptions as part of the main track....  Out of curiosity just sampled via Spotify a bit of the "Landscape" movement.... is the organ dubbed from the Anglican cathedral - it sounds like that organ and has a different acoustic around it......?  Quite liked the weighty epic feel though actually!

Laboured and slow in the 9th is what appeals to me.  I look forward to listening later today.

Is there any (non-live, stereo) recording of the Antartica where the organ was not recorded separately?

(Incidentally belated congratulations to the RVW thread on reaching 200 pages  ;D - even if some of them were mostly Bax, Moeran, Elgar, Britten ...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 02, 2019, 12:55:37 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 02, 2019, 12:16:40 AM
Laboured and slow in the 9th is what appeals to me.  I look forward to listening later today.

Is there any (non-live, stereo) recording of the Antartica where the organ was not recorded separately?

(Incidentally belated congratulations to the RVW thread on reaching 200 pages  ;D - even if some of them were mostly Bax, Moeran, Elgar, Britten ...

This is not easy to determine, several mention a separate organ but others - Boult, Previn, Haitink - give no recording venue details at all.

Davis/BBCSO  was recorded in St Augustine's Church, London and no overdub is mentioned. Oddly, Job from the same set was recorded in the same venue but an organ overdub (King's College Cambridge Chapel) is specified. Davis Bergen PO just says recorded in Grieghallen, Bergen, no mention of an overdub.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 02, 2019, 03:43:54 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 01, 2019, 06:52:40 AM
There's a facebook group dedicated to RVW and in the last couple of days this new Manze recording (which I have NOT heard) has been discussed and the general opinion seems to have been strongly negative - laboured and slow being the consensus especially in No.9.

(NB - of the 9th only, I haven't listened to the Antartica) - it is (for me) completely satisfying and convincing, from first to last
The first movement at this pace could easily be a simple continuation of the Antartica (that is, a continuation of one of my favourite VW symphonies).  So much so that it's maybe unfortunate to juxtapose these two symphonies on the same disc - or maybe that was deliberate, I dunno.  The 2nd movement here is elegaic, strongly redolent of the 5th symphony.  The 3rd and 4th movements I do feel show the 84-year-old composer running out of steam - as such they are very poignant but I don't think the music is VW's best though the last movement starts well enough, similar to the finale of the 6th - in this performance they seem very much all of a piece with the first two movements, only right towards the end of the last movement did I feel the music was overstaying its welcome - but then as I listened I remembered how the 85-year-old heard this in performance for the first time, and died fairly peacefully a few weeks later.
The recording has a delicate, transparent sort of feel but unusual orchestral sonorities are not highlighted as much as they could be - the saxophones for example are quite recessed in the mix and seem just reduced to 'any old generic woodwind' - likewise a couple of gong-like effects are very subtly presented - though I was only listening on headphones so will reserve judgment on all that.

Previously I have known this symphony via Previn (on vinyl) and subsequently Boult, then Haitink.  None of these have made me want to listen again and consequently the 9th has long ago been dropped from my personal listening repertoire.  This recording should change that.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71UlOzzsmDL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 02, 2019, 03:50:19 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 02, 2019, 03:43:54 AM
(of the 9th only, I haven't listened to the Antartica) - it is (for me) completely satisfying and convincing, from first to last
The first movement at this pace could easily be a simple continuation of the Antartica (that is, a continuation of one of my favourite VW symphonies).  So much so that it's maybe unfortunate to juxtapose these two symphonies on the same disc - or maybe that was deliberate, I dunno.  The 2nd movement here is elegaic, strongly redolent of the 5th symphony.  The 3rd and 4th movements I do feel show the 84-year-old composer running out of steam - as such they are very poignant but I don't think the music is VW's best though the last movement starts well enough, similar to the finale of the 6th - in this performance they seem very much all of a piece with the first two movements, only right towards the end of the last movement did I feel the music was overstaying its welcome - but then as I listened I remembered how the 85-year-old heard this in performance for the first time, and died fairly peacefully a few weeks later.
The recording has a delicate, transparent sort of feel but unusual orchestral sonorities are not highlighted as much as they could be - the saxophones for example are quite recessed in the mix and seem just reduced to 'any old generic woodwind' - likewise a couple of gong-like effects are very subtly presented - though I was only listening on headphones so will reserve judgment on all that.


Previously I have known this symphony via Previn (on vinyl) and subsequently Boult, then Haitink.  None of these have made me want to listen again and consequently the 9th has long ago been dropped from my personal listening repertoire.  This recording will change all that.


Yes, but nowhere near as slowly as this - Sargent took only 31 mins. However, this is your own personal choice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 02, 2019, 03:53:08 AM
Yes, I freely admit to being strongly predisposed to 'slow is good' - in almost any music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 02, 2019, 04:41:49 AM
While still in a critical mood I decided to revisit the fairly recent recording of Symphony No 6 from Elder and the Halle. This time I enjoyed it a lot more - not quite sure why I took against it before. Possibly because I listened to No 4 on the disc first and that was a disappointment. Sonically, this is one of the best No 6s I have heard.

Will now have to give No 4 another try but not today.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 02, 2019, 04:57:59 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 02, 2019, 04:40:21 AM
According to the Warner box-set booklet, the Haitink was recorded in Abbey Road No.1 (no organ there AFAIK?).  Of others where I have notes, Leppard gives no venue (but presumably Indianapos Symphony Hall or some such), Thomson was recorded in St Jude's Church - however of all recordings I've heard, the organ in the Thomson is the least believable in terms of an integrated sound - it just sounds 'off-stage' (shame as this recording is otherwise top-notch).  The Boult (stereo recording) I think I remember reading at time of release and first reviews, that the organ was recorded separately (though probably at the same venue, Walthamstow - I'm guessing now) - I remember that because it was radical, at that time.
I only have booklets, not the back-sleeve pages where extra recording info is sometimes buried.

I dug out the original LP of the Boult (1970) release and it has no technical information whatever. Slatkin is another with a dubbed organ (Westminster Central Hall). Barbirolli (1954) is a real oddity. The symphony was recorded in the Free Trade Hall, Manchester, venue for the premiere so presumably has an organ. The organ part was recorded separately - in No 1 Studio, Abbey Road.

Earlier, I listened to Davis/Bergen PO. The organ does sound natural but slightly tame, not enough of the Abominable Dr Phibes; a shame as the orchestral sound is spectacular.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2019, 06:44:11 AM
Good to see so much activity on this thread. RVW, for me, remains the quintessential English composer. His music not only conjures up images of those rolling pastures and hillsides, but also the hardships the country has endured and the kind humanity that make up its people. He seemed to always stand on the principle that people were important to his music and without them, he wouldn't be able to compose in the manner he does. Of course, I'm paraphrasing here. I believe this to be certainly true given how he loved to collect folk music --- he had his finger on the pulse of rural English life, but also life in the city.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2019, 06:47:32 AM
I'm really looking forward to the next installment to Brabbins' series on Hyperion. That is, if he continues, which I hope he does. He has given two excellent performances of A Sea Symphony and A London Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 02, 2019, 09:40:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2019, 06:44:11 AM
Good to see so much activity on this thread. RVW, for me, remains the quintessential English composer. His music not only conjures up images of those rolling pastures and hillsides, but also the hardships the country has endured and the kind humanity that make up its people.

I was reading only today** that late in life VW was a passionate internationalist - that is, he used his public profile to campaign tirelessly for a united Europe and ultimately for a World Federation.  Alongside this, he said that of course it was important for nations to retain their individual identities, but that they should do this through their art and culture.

** in The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams by Micheal Kennedy
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 02, 2019, 10:03:43 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 02, 2019, 04:57:59 AM
Barbirolli (1954) is a real oddity. The symphony was recorded in the Free Trade Hall, Manchester, venue for the premiere so presumably has an organ. The organ part was recorded separately - in No 1 Studio, Abbey Road.

Oh - ha!  Well I certainly don't remember hearing an organ on Sgt Pepper  :D

Free Trade Hall - well I don't remember seeing an organ there (the Hall no longer exists of course, it's a chain hotel now - but I attended a couple of concerts there in the early '80s) and Googling, maybe this is why I didn't see the organ:

(https://organs.uk/wp-content/uploads/Ogden-Down-Curtain-600x600.jpg)

Googling again, Abbey Road had a similar theatre organ rescued from a cinema in Birmingham, but that's all that I can see.

Who's missing now?  Handley?  Bakels anyone?  Elder is live I assume.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2019, 10:29:00 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 02, 2019, 10:03:43 AM
Who's missing now?  Handley?  Bakels anyone?  Elder is live I assume.

The Bakels' CD doesn't mention the organ, only the organist and the recording location: Wessex Hall, Poole Arts Center, Poole, Dorset.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 02, 2019, 11:09:29 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 02, 2019, 04:57:59 AM
I dug out the original LP of the Boult (1970) release and it has no technical information whatever. Slatkin is another with a dubbed organ (Westminster Central Hall). Barbirolli (1954) is a real oddity. The symphony was recorded in the Free Trade Hall, Manchester, venue for the premiere so presumably has an organ. The organ part was recorded separately - in No 1 Studio, Abbey Road.

Earlier, I listened to Davis/Bergen PO. The organ does sound natural but slightly tame, not enough of the Abominable Dr Phibes; a shame as the orchestral sound is spectacular.
For the best 'Dr Phibes' effect you should listen to the Rozhdestvensky recording where the organ goes haywire at one point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 02, 2019, 11:14:01 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 02, 2019, 03:43:54 AM
(NB - of the 9th only, I haven't listened to the Antartica) - it is (for me) completely satisfying and convincing, from first to last
The first movement at this pace could easily be a simple continuation of the Antartica (that is, a continuation of one of my favourite VW symphonies).  So much so that it's maybe unfortunate to juxtapose these two symphonies on the same disc - or maybe that was deliberate, I dunno.  The 2nd movement here is elegaic, strongly redolent of the 5th symphony.  The 3rd and 4th movements I do feel show the 84-year-old composer running out of steam - as such they are very poignant but I don't think the music is VW's best though the last movement starts well enough, similar to the finale of the 6th - in this performance they seem very much all of a piece with the first two movements, only right towards the end of the last movement did I feel the music was overstaying its welcome - but then as I listened I remembered how the 85-year-old heard this in performance for the first time, and died fairly peacefully a few weeks later.
The recording has a delicate, transparent sort of feel but unusual orchestral sonorities are not highlighted as much as they could be - the saxophones for example are quite recessed in the mix and seem just reduced to 'any old generic woodwind' - likewise a couple of gong-like effects are very subtly presented - though I was only listening on headphones so will reserve judgment on all that.

Previously I have known this symphony via Previn (on vinyl) and subsequently Boult, then Haitink.  None of these have made me want to listen again and consequently the 9th has long ago been dropped from my personal listening repertoire.  This recording should change that.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71UlOzzsmDL._SL1200_.jpg)
Interesting review. I've always thought highly of the Ninth Symphony, although I think that the outer movements are the best ones. I find that the work, as a whole, has a craggy, monolithic quality which is very appealing and I find those massive, looming chords at the end, followed by the harps, very moving.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 02, 2019, 03:57:44 PM
Talking of organs going haywire I remember some sleeve notes from a Supraphon recording of Janacek's Glagolitic Mass where there was a reference to the "ravenous organ solo" in the postlude movement.  ???
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 02, 2019, 04:06:23 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 02, 2019, 03:57:44 PM
Talking of organs going haywire I remember some sleeve notes from a Supraphon recording of Janacek's Glagolitic Mass where there was a reference to the "ravenous organ solo" in the postlude movement.  ???

What does it mean for an organ to be hungry?  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 03, 2019, 01:29:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2019, 10:29:00 AM
The Bakels' CD doesn't mention the organ, only the organist and the recording location: Wessex Hall, Poole Arts Center, Poole, Dorset.

Sarge

Handley's Antartica was recorded in the Philharmonic Hall, Liverpool and the organ in Liverpool Anglican Cathedral.

Poole Arts Centre has, for some unfathomable reason, been rebranded as The Lighthouse and the concert hall no longer has a separate name.

The Wessex Hall did not have a permanent organ. An electronic one with a couple of stacks of speakers was used when an organ was required.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 03, 2019, 01:54:14 AM
Carlo Curley at the keys?  ;)
Quote from: wikipediaCurley used a substantial Allen touring organ where the venue lacked an instrument of sufficient scope to support his repertoire. He recorded commercially for various labels such as RCA, ProArte, Rediffusion and Decca International. He participated in several 'Battle of the Organs' concerts, and his final such concert was in June 2012 at Liverpool Anglican Cathedral with his friend Ian Tracey using a Copeman Hart instrument.

I now have Handley in the post having seen a copy for less than £1.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 02, 2019, 11:14:01 AM
Interesting review. I've always thought highly of the Ninth Symphony, although I think that the outer movements are the best ones. I find that the work, as a whole, has a craggy, monolithic quality which is very appealing and I find those massive, looming chords at the end, followed by the harps, very moving.

I must admit I don't have much patience with orchestral codas in general.  They probably work better in the concert hall than in the intimacy of the home listening environment where I just find the obviousness of it all a bit cringeworthy.  (Talking in general here, not VW 9 specifically.)  Charles Ives found the perfect solution at the end of his 2nd Symphony.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 01, 2019, 06:52:40 AM
Out of curiosity just sampled via Spotify a bit of the "Landscape" movement.... is the organ dubbed from the Anglican cathedral - it sounds like that organ and has a different acoustic around it......?  Quite liked the weighty epic feel though actually!

Yes I've now listened to 'Landscape' (only).  That certainly sounds like a Big Beast (and one feels that VW must have had some Willis-type monster in mind when he wrote this).  The pedal note underpinning is a bit overcooked compared with other recordings I've heard - though quite visceral in effect.  Those pipes must be slow to speak which is one reason why recording separately is an advantage - timings adjusted in post.  The climax sounds like a good 'natural' balance to me (though what do I know, I've never experienced an orchestra and organ playing simultaneously in real life).  During the climax the second orchestral swell sounds extraordinary - a weird stuttering effect that I've never noticed before - I had to rewind and play that bit again to check my old ears weren't playing tricks.

Now, who else?  James Judd?  Martin Yates?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 03, 2019, 11:23:31 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 03, 2019, 01:54:14 AM
I must admit I don't have much patience with orchestral codas in general.

What!!  Dissing Orchestral Codas [Epilogues]!!!! Never - glorious things  ;) ..... RVW London Symphony / Bax 7 / Rach 1 & 3 / Bruckner 9 (if you count the Adagio as an ending.....)  Just for starters!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 03, 2019, 11:32:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2019, 06:44:11 AM
Good to see so much activity on this thread. RVW, for me, remains the quintessential English composer. His music not only conjures up images of those rolling pastures and hillsides, but also the hardships the country has endured and the kind humanity that make up its people. He seemed to always stand on the principle that people were important to his music and without them, he wouldn't be able to compose in the manner he does. Of course, I'm paraphrasing here. I believe this to be certainly true given how he loved to collect folk music --- he had his finger on the pulse of rural English life, but also life in the city.
A very thoughtful analysis John and nice to read as a humane corrective in our current era of intolerance and confrontation.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 03, 2019, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 03, 2019, 11:23:31 AM
What!!  Dissing Orchestral Codas [Epilogues]!!!! Never - glorious things  ;) ..... RVW London Symphony / Bax 7 / Rach 1 & 3 / Bruckner 9 (if you count the Adagio as an ending.....)  Just for starters!

All those are terrific endings IMO. Rachmaninov's first conveys a sense of looming catastrophe ( something I always relate to  8)) throughout and then it finally plunges headlong into the abyss in the coda. Marvellous - I love that ending.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 03, 2019, 01:37:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 03, 2019, 12:29:31 PM
All those are terrific endings IMO. Rachmaninov's first conveys a sense of looming catastrophe ( something I always relate to  8)) throughout and then it finally plunges headlong into the abyss in the coda. Marvellous - I love that ending.

I love a good epilogue too. If the composer is not up to scratch I find I have turned off the piece long before the epilogue. (I've never thought of Bruckner's 9th Adagio as an epilogue and the SPCM realisation shows how the symphony would have ended IMO).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 03, 2019, 01:46:18 PM
I like an epilogue if it is good. Strauss' Don Juan has a great one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 04, 2019, 12:15:52 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 03, 2019, 11:23:31 AM
What!!  Dissing Orchestral Codas [Epilogues]!!!! Never - glorious things  ;) ..... RVW London Symphony / Bax 7 / Rach 1 & 3 / Bruckner 9 (if you count the Adagio as an ending.....)  Just for starters!

It's more the crash-bang-wallop barnstorming style I had in mind.  The final bars of Rach's 2nd Piano Concerto would be a prime example.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 04, 2019, 12:59:55 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 03, 2019, 01:46:18 PM
I like an epilogue if it is good. Strauss' Don Juan has a great one.

+ VW A London Symphony (1913 especially), Symphony 6, Bax symphonies 3 and 7. Madetoja, Symphony 2.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 04, 2019, 01:35:26 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 04, 2019, 12:15:52 AM
It's more the crash-bang-wallop barnstorming style I had in mind. 

That's fair enough - and of course it s exactly that type of ending that Arnold parodies so funnily in his Grand Grand Overture.  But here's a question for you..... is the Coda of Shostakovich 5th empty rhetoric for you or grinding despair expressed through frozen triumph....?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 05, 2019, 12:39:04 AM
I would call it heavy sarcasm wielded like a blunt axe.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 05, 2019, 02:12:53 AM
I wrote:
Quote from: Biffo on May 02, 2019, 12:55:37 AM
The Boult (stereo recording) I think I remember reading at time of release and first reviews, that the organ was recorded separately (though probably at the same venue, Walthamstow - I'm guessing now) - I remember that because it was radical, at that time.

I guessed wrong - that recording was in the Kingsway Hall.  There was an organ there but it was apparently not highly regarded, and I would still speculate that the organ on this 1969 Boult recording was probably dubbed - simply, from an engineering and production point of view, "because we can".

Here's an image of the Kingsway Hall - with Boult at the podium - and the link below it, by an EMI engineer of that time, is worth a read as well.

(https://davidpickett.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/kingsway.jpg?w=470&h=332)
David Pickett - the Golden Age of Stereo (https://davidpickett.wordpress.com/2009/07/26/the-golden-age-of-stereo/#more-654)

The Kingsway Hall was loved for its acoustic, but problematic for the engineers because of its central London location with stop-go traffic noise and frequent underground trains.  Apparently the usual arrangement was opposite to the above - with the conductor facing away from the arch and the orchestra occupying the staggered audience area.

This morning I listened to the live 1984 Haitink/LPO recording of the Antartica - with its (presumably) live real-time organ contribution recorded by (apparently) skilled BBC engineers - and also 'Landscape' from the Manze recording again - all on heaphones unfortunately as I wouldn't want to frighten the horses on this peaceful Sunday morning.
The Haitink recording gives an opportunity to hear how the live contest between full-bore organ and full-bore orchestra could actually pan out.  Firstly, this performance really brings out the Bruckner, who I feel is never that far away during this symphony.  The organ pedal underpinning is (as you would expect) very convincing - generally more powerful than in most other recordings I've listened to (Haitink studio, Boult, Davis/BBC, Leppard, Thomson) but not by any means as full-on as the new Manze recording - which is thrilling in its effect, but too much too soon I feel. Even on headphones this organ seems to move huge masses of air in its bottom octave. 
At the climax in the live recording, the Royal Festival Hall organ is the winner, with the two orchestral swells scarcely registering whilst the bottom end of the organ rasps like an old Triumph twin motorcycle.  Then - at the cymbal crash - there is a none-too-subtle rebalancing act and the orchestra comes slightly to the fore sounding, actually, very good.  For Manze, it is the second (post-cymbal) balance that we hear thoughout the climactic episode, so that the orchestral parts are at all times clear to hear.  The organ too sits 'under' the orchestra in terms of tone colour, rather than competing in the middle register.  There is manipulation of course, but in this recording it's a lot more subtly done (to be fair to the BBC engineers, subtle is not always an option when recording live, however much rehearsal time you've had) - in Manze rather than overt gain-riding or compression the entire 'Landscape' movement is presented at slightly lower level, to allow room for the eventual climax - to hear the whole symphony correctly you would need to edge the volume up just a little for the middle movement only.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 07, 2019, 01:52:21 AM
Dutton has just released another RVW CD of barrel-scrapings previously unheard music.

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7359

Richard II: incidental music (1944)
1. Prelude (Lento – Allegro moderato – Andante sostenuto)

2. i Act I scene 1 (Moderato – Harsh)
ii Transition to Act I scene 2 (Allegro – Lento (Foreboding))
iii Transition to Act I scene 3 (Lento – Allegro eroico)

3. i Act I scene 3, flourish for entrance of Richard and attendants (Allegro)
ii Act I scene 3, flourish for entrance of Bolingbroke (Allegro)
iii Act I scene 3, flourish for start of trial (Maestoso)
iv Act I scene 3, flourish for combatants' charge (Maestoso)
v Act I scene 3, flourish to end trial (Maestoso)
vi Act I scene 3, exit of Richard and attendants (Allegro moderato)

4. i Transition to Act I scene 4 (Lento – Allegro)
ii Transition to Act II scene 1 (Allegro moderato – Lento)
iii Act II scene 1, exit and death of John O'Gaunt (Allegro moderato – Lento)
iv Transition to Act II scene 2 (Allegro – Lento)
v Transition to Act II scene 2 (Moderato)
vi Transition to Act II scene 2 (Moderato)

5. Transition to Act II scene 3 (Lento)
"To beat Bolingbroke back ..." – Bushy

6. Transition to Act II scene 4/Act III scene 1 (Moderato – Lento – Largo)
"Things past redress are now with me past care" – York

7. i Transition to Act III scene 2 (Alla marcia)
ii Transition to Act III scene 3 (Andante sostenuto – Despairing)

8. i Act III scene 3, flourish and entrance of Richard and attendants on the walls (Moderato – Largo – Solemn)
ii Act III scene 3, exit of Richard and attendants (Largo)

9. i Transition to Act III scene 4 (Largo – Andante con moto)
ii Transition to Act IV scene 1 (Agitato – Più lento – Maestoso)
iii Act IV scene 1, entrance of York and Richard (Allegro)
iv Act IV scene 1, exit of Richard (Lento – Poco meno lento)
v Transition to Act IV scene 2 (Moderato – Andante con moto)
"A plot shall sow us a merry day" – Abbot

10. Underscoring and transition to Act V scene 2 (Andante sostenuto – Sorrowful)
"In wooing sorrow let's be brief" – Richard

11. i Transition to Act V scene 3 (Allegro)
ii Transition from Act V scene 4 to Act V scene 5 (Lento)

12. i Act V scene 5 (Lento) TOM DUNN solo viola
"Music do I hear?" – Richard
ii Act V scene 5, entrance chord of groom

13. Act V scene 5, death of Richard (Andante moderato – Death)

14. Act V scene 6, entrance of Exton and finale (Maestoso)
"High sparks of honour in thee have I seen" – Bolingbroke

Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes for cello and orchestra (1929)NR
15. Lento (Salisbury Plain) –
16. Allegro scherzando ma non troppo (The Long Whip) –
17. Andante sostenuto (Low down in the Broom) –
18. Allegro (Bristol Town) –
19. Pesante (I've been to France) – Cadenza

Suite de Ballet (ca. 1913)AN
Arranged for flute and string orchestra by Roger Steptoe (1989)
20. i Improvisation (Andante)
21. ii Humoresque (Presto)
22. iii Gavotte (Quasi lento)
23. iv Passepied (Allegro vivacissimo)

Songs of Travel (1901-04)RW
Words: Robert Louis Stevenson (1850-94)
Orchestrated by Ralph Vaughan Williams (1905), except *orchestrated by Roy Douglas (1961-62)
24. The Vagabond (Allegro moderato)
25. Let Beauty Awake (Moderato)*
26. The Roadside Fire (Allegretto)
27. Youth and Love (Andante sostenuto)*
28. In Dreams (Andantino)*
29. The Infinite Shining Heavens (Andante sostenuto)*
30. Whither Must I Wander (Andante)*
31. Bright is the Ring of Words (Moderato risoluto)
32. I Have trod the Upward and the Downward Slope (Andante sostenuto)*

NR NADÈGE ROCHAT cello
AN ANNA NOAKES flute
RW RODERICK WILLIAMS baritone

ROYAL SCOTTISH NATIONAL ORCHESTRA conducted by MARTIN YATES
WORLD PREMIERE RECORDING [Richard II: incidental music]
WORLD PREMIERE RECORDING IN ORCHESTRAL VERSION [Suite de Ballet]

Multi-ch Stereo
All tracks available in stereo and multi-channel

SA-CD
This hybrid CD can be played on any standard CD players

Dutton Epoch is thrilled to present celebrated baritone Roderick Williams in the complete orchestral version of Vaughan Williams's Songs of Travel. Recorded at the Caird Hall, Dundee, in one remarkable session, everyone present was gripped by the music's eloquence and impact. Written between the Fifth and Sixth Symphonies, Vaughan Williams's incidental music for a BBC wartime production of Shakespeare's Richard II was delivered by the composer in 1944, but went unheard when the production was aborted. This world premiere recording of RVW's score reveals the composer at the peak of his powers. The Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes for cello and orchestra was written for Pablo Casals, and here, in cellist Nadège Rochat's singing performance, the tunes appear as a succession of musical jewels. The short Suite de Ballet for flute and piano can now be heard in composer Roger Steptoe's idiomatic 1989 orchestration for flute and strings. Flautist Anna Noakes projects the flute line with fine tone and the strings of the RSNO provide a sumptuous context.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 07, 2019, 02:03:44 AM
Quote from: Oates on May 07, 2019, 01:52:21 AM
Dutton has just released another RVW CD of barrel-scrapings previously unheard music.

This kind of disc makes me twitch.  The completist in me wants to get it, the realist says its minor works you don't really need.  I'll probably wait until 2nd hand copies appear.  Makes me laugh that the 8 Songs of Travel are presented as "orchestrated by RVW except where marked with an *".  Of course Roy Douglas' excellent orchestrations account for 6 of the 8 songs so while the listing is not incorrect it gives a misleading sense of it being mainly RVW orchs....

Certainly the RVW estate seems to have become very keen on just about all/any juvenalia and/or minor works entering the public domain.  With a composer such as RVW who was eminently practical and willing to produce serviceable music to order I'm not sure it always does him great favours.  The early works interest me but mainly to show the long road he trod to find his individual voice.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on May 07, 2019, 03:55:15 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 07, 2019, 02:03:44 AM
This kind of disc makes me twitch.  The completist in me wants to get it, the realist says its minor works you don't really need.  I'll probably wait until 2nd hand copies appear.  Makes me laugh that the 8 Songs of Travel are presented as "orchestrated by RVW except where marked with an *".  Of course Roy Douglas' excellent orchestrations account for 6 of the 8 songs so while the listing is not incorrect it gives a misleading sense of it being mainly RVW orchs....

Certainly the RVW estate seems to have become very keen on just about all/any juvenalia and/or minor works entering the public domain.  With a composer such as RVW who was eminently practical and willing to produce serviceable music to order I'm not sure it always does him great favours.  The early works interest me but mainly to show the long road he trod to find his individual voice.....

I must admit that I'm more likely to buy this than (for example) yet another version of the Symphonies - reinterpretation only goes so far for me. I think in the past (certainly by RVW himself, and up until Ursula Vaughan Williams died) there was too censorious an approach. So the market needs 'new' product as well as new 'old' product - the latter is a staple of the classical recording industry. We're happy to buy the same thing many times over.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 07, 2019, 04:19:27 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 07, 2019, 02:03:44 AM
This kind of disc makes me twitch.  The completist in me wants to get it, the realist says its minor works you don't really need.  I'll probably wait until 2nd hand copies appear.  Makes me laugh that the 8 Songs of Travel are presented as "orchestrated by RVW except where marked with an *".  Of course Roy Douglas' excellent orchestrations account for 6 of the 8 songs so while the listing is not incorrect it gives a misleading sense of it being mainly RVW orchs....

Certainly the RVW estate seems to have become very keen on just about all/any juvenalia and/or minor works entering the public domain.  With a composer such as RVW who was eminently practical and willing to produce serviceable music to order I'm not sure it always does him great favours.  The early works interest me but mainly to show the long road he trod to find his individual voice.....

My thoughts exactlly. I already have four versions of the Songs of Travel - Christopher Maltman, Bryn Terfel, Anthony Rolfe Johnson (piano) and Thomas Allen (orchestra). Much as I admire Roderick Williams, do I want another set? - especially as I greatly prefer the piano version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 07, 2019, 08:01:20 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 07, 2019, 04:19:27 AM
My thoughts exactlly. I already have four versions of the Songs of Travel - Christopher Maltman, Bryn Terfel, Anthony Rolfe Johnson (piano) and Thomas Allen (orchestra). Much as I admire Roderick Williams, do I want another set? - especially as I greatly prefer the piano version.
.

I rather like the orchestral settings - and Tom Allen has for me the perfect voice for this repertoire.  Assuming the Rolfe Johnson disc is this one

[asin]B0000264XW[/asin]

it is one of my absolute favourite vocal recital discs and to my mind Rolfe-Johnson's finest recording.  Lovely to hear the Songs of Travel in the tenor/high voice version but the whole programme is simply superb with the most ravishing and disarming version of Gurney's "Down by the Salley Gardens" I know.  So lovely your post prompted me to put it on straight away!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 07, 2019, 08:29:03 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 07, 2019, 08:01:20 AM
.

I rather like the orchestral settings - and Tom Allen has for me the perfect voice for this repertoire.  Assuming the Rolfe Johnson disc is this one

[asin]B0000264XW[/asin]

it is one of my absolute favourite vocal recital discs and to my mind Rolfe-Johnson's finest recording.  Lovely to hear the Songs of Travel in the tenor/high voice version but the whole programme is simply superb with the most ravishing and disarming version of Gurney's "Down by the Salley Gardens" I know.  So lovely your post prompted me to put it on straight away!

I am sure that is the right album though mine is from EMI Classics (not at home right now to check ). For purists the album of RVW rarities 'The Solent' has just the three 'Songs of Travel' orchestrated by the composer.

Edit: The album I have is a 2 CD set with The House of Life and songs by Ireland, Gurney, Butterworth and Warlock
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 12, 2019, 09:08:37 AM
I'm thinking I might be in the mood for this,today?!! I've got the Albion restoration of the original broadcast,as well. But,I don't think I'll be playing that today?! I'm not generally keen on music with chin-wagging'. The 70's soul diva,Millie Jackson (no relation to Michael!) of whom I'm a confessed fan,a notable exception! But she doesn't really belong here!! :-\ ;D) But I do like VW's musical response to Bunyan. The words are beautiful,and this is a skilful abridgement of the original play! Quicker than listening to the 'opera';let alone sitting down & reading the book!!
Incidentally,I remember thinking,"If anyone ever releases,the original play on cd,I'll buy it!" I didn't have to wait long,after buying this cd!!

(https://i.imgur.com/KHwkp9d.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 12, 2019, 09:46:14 AM
Still playing! I must admit,I've switched this cd off before! I'm not,exactly,a fan of Gielgud,either! I like the Boult recording of the Sinfonia Antartica,though;with the spoken  interpolations.Incidentally! Was the Boult recording ever released,on cd,without the yapping?!! Vandermole,may know?!! I am given to understand the,Previn recording,was?!! Hyperion made a good job of this recording,though! I'm quite enjoying it,at the moment! I think it might be more Reger,next?!! ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 13, 2019, 12:58:06 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 12, 2019, 09:46:14 AM
Still playing! I must admit,I've switched this cd off before! I'm not,exactly,a fan of Gielgud,either! I like the Boult recording of the Sinfonia Antartica,though;with the spoken  interpolations.Incidentally! Was the Boult recording ever released,on cd,without the yapping?!! Vandermole,may know?!! I am given to understand the,Previn recording,was?!! Hyperion made a good job of this recording,though! I'm quite enjoying it,at the moment! I think it might be more Reger,next?!! ;D

Boult recorded Antartica twice; the earlier version had the 'yapping', the second version (ca.1972) was mercifully yap-free. Decca have released the earlier cycle but I haven't heard it. It was possibly me that gave the impression that the CD release of Previn had the recitation removed. My memory was at fault, if you want to hear Sir Ralph solemnly intoning you can but mercifully he is on separate tracks so you can have just the music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 17, 2019, 04:42:44 PM
To me, this is the quintessential RVW symphony cycle that best embodies his spirit musically.  What say you?

Symphony No. 1   LPO/Haitink
Symphony No. 2   LSO/Hickox (1913 version)
Symphony No. 3   LSO/Previn
Symphony No. 4   LPO/Boult
Symphony No. 5   LSO/Previn
Symphony No. 6   RLPO/Handley
Symphony No. 7   First and Last movement from LSO/Previn, Landscapes from LPO/Boult, rest of movements from BSO/Bakels
Symphony No. 8   LSO/Previn
Symphony No. 9   LSO/Previn

To me, RVW is more than the music or the notes, there is an individual soul his music transcends. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 17, 2019, 11:05:44 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 17, 2019, 04:42:44 PM
To me, this is the quintessential RVW symphony cycle that best embodies his spirit musically.  What say you?

Symphony No. 1   LPO/Haitink
Symphony No. 2   LSO/Hickox (1913 version)
Symphony No. 3   LSO/Previn
Symphony No. 4   LPO/Boult
Symphony No. 5   LSO/Previn
Symphony No. 6   RLPO/Handley
Symphony No. 7   First and Last movement from LSO/Previn, Landscapes from LPO/Boult, rest of movements from BSO/Bakels
Symphony No. 8   LSO/Previn
Symphony No. 9   LSO/Previn

To me, RVW is more than the music or the notes, there is an individual soul his music transcends.
Looks like great choices to me. I'd probably choose a different No.6 (LPO, Boult, Bryden Thomson version as well and I also like Haitink's recording and that of Andrew Davis). I've increasing appreciated the Previn cycle and I'd choose his RCA recording for the 1936 version of A London Symphony and Brabbins for the 1920 version. I listened to Previn's recording of No.9 the other day. I would probably choose a different version as my top choice (Stokowski or Thomson - a fine CD with the Piano Concerto).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 18, 2019, 01:28:45 AM
1. Spano (though I'd like to substitute Slatkin for the final movement)
2. totally undecided - any recording EXCEPT Hickox
3. Boult
4. never listen to it
5. Kalmar
6. Davis/BBC
7. undecided - Davis/BBC or Thomson or Manze
8. Thomson
9. Manze
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2019, 01:34:25 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 18, 2019, 01:28:45 AM
1. Spano (though I'd like to substitute Slatkin for the final movement)
2. totally undecided - any recording EXCEPT Hickox
3. Boult
4. never listen to it
5. Kalmar
6. Davis/BBC
7. undecided - Davis/BBC or Thomson or Manze
8. Thomson
9. Manze

I haven't heard the Manze yet. They've run out of stock at the distributors  ::)

Which Boult do you mean?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 18, 2019, 04:25:03 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 17, 2019, 04:42:44 PM
To me, this is the quintessential RVW symphony cycle that best embodies his spirit musically.  What say you?

Symphony No. 1   LPO/Haitink
Symphony No. 2   LSO/Hickox (1913 version)
Symphony No. 3   LSO/Previn
Symphony No. 4   LPO/Boult
Symphony No. 5   LSO/Previn
Symphony No. 6   RLPO/Handley
Symphony No. 7   First and Last movement from LSO/Previn, Landscapes from LPO/Boult, rest of movements from BSO/Bakels
Symphony No. 8   LSO/Previn
Symphony No. 9   LSO/Previn

To me, RVW is more than the music or the notes, there is an individual soul his music transcends.
To me too, and great choices - hope to find time to listen to all of them again. I grew up with the second Boult cycle and Boult remains quintessential, but the two cycles that left the biggest impression are Previn's and Thomson's. For now, my first choices would be like:
Symphony No. 1   LPO/Haitink (not sure, never really came to terms with A Sea Symphony)
Symphony No. 2   LSO/Brabbins (1920 version)
Symphony No. 3   LSO/Previn
Symphony No. 4   NYPh/Bernstein
Symphony No. 5   RPhO/Previn
Symphony No. 6   LSO/Thomson
Symphony No. 7   BSO/Bakels (perhaps Haitink)
Symphony No. 8   LSO/Thomson
Symphony No. 9   LSO/Thomson
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2019, 04:31:09 AM
1 - Boult (EMI)

2 -  Barbirolli (Dutton)
      Hickox (1913)
     
3 - Haitink
     
4 - Bernstein
     
5 - Menuhin
     
6 - Boult (Decca)

7 - Haitink

8 - Boult (EMI)
     
9 - Thomson
     
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2019, 05:58:52 AM
Quote from: Christo on May 18, 2019, 04:25:03 AMTo me too, and great choices - hope to find time to listen to all of them again. I grew up with the second Boult cycle and Boult remains quintessential, but the two cycles that left the biggest impression are Previn's and Thomson's.

You and I are quite simpatico in this regard. These two cycles are my favorites and both have unique perspectives on all of the symphonies. Like you, I cut my teeth with this music with Boult's cycle, but the EMI one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 19, 2019, 03:04:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2019, 01:34:25 AM
Which Boult do you mean?

The EMI, I kinda grew up with those and saw Boult conduct the London symphony at a Prom in the early '70s - rather memorable because (with the symphony coming straight after the interval) the first few minutes were somewhat marred by glass-stacking noises off from the direction of the bar.  (Haitink would have pulled the plug and stormed off.)  All adds to the sense of occasion I suppose. 
I'd like to nominate 'Boult for all' but it has to be said the competition in this repertoire always has been extremely strong and the likes of Davis, Kalmar and Brabbins with excellent modern recordings just seem to keep raising the bar.

I'm not familiar with the Decca Boult recordings although as a schoolboy my best friend's father had the Decca set in a display cabinet in his hallway, an awe-inspiring spectacle for any young visitor back in 1963 !!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 19, 2019, 09:15:49 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 19, 2019, 03:04:13 AM
The EMI, I kinda grew up with those and saw Boult conduct the London symphony at a Prom in the early '70s - rather memorable because (with the symphony coming straight after the interval) the first few minutes were somewhat marred by glass-stacking noises off from the direction of the bar.  (Haitink would have pulled the plug and stormed off.)  All adds to the sense of occasion I suppose. 
I'd like to nominate 'Boult for all' but it has to be said the competition in this repertoire always has been extremely strong and the likes of Davis, Kalmar and Brabbins with excellent modern recordings just seem to keep raising the bar.

I'm not familiar with the Decca Boult recordings although as a schoolboy my best friend's father had the Decca set in a display cabinet in his hallway, an awe-inspiring spectacle for any young visitor back in 1963 !!
Interesting. Thanks. Reminds me of when a performance of Shostakovich's 8th Symphony in Liverpool (conducted by Ashkenazy) which I attended whilst at university in the north of England, was interrupted by a cat miaowing throughout the performance and the Leader of the orchestra shredding his bow so that it turned into a large ball of cotton wool during his crucial solo at the end of the work. He held it up to great cheers at the end of the performance. Come to think of it, although my first VW LP was of Boult's LPO Decca Eclipse version (still the greatest IMO) of Symphony 6 I also grew up with the EMI cycle as I bought the boxed set on LP with the great portrait sculpture of VW on the cover:
I remember that my university friends had symphonies 3 and 5 together on Decca Eclipse and Boult's Sinfonia Antartica on EMI. My brother asked our mother to get him Symphony 4 for Christmas one year but she accidentally got Barbirolli's fine EMI LP of Symphony 5 but he was very happy with that.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 19, 2019, 09:23:31 AM
Two fine VW CDs arrived here this weekend. The overlap being the lovely 'Romance' (in chamber and orchestral versions) and the very enjoyable 'Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes' - a must-have for a resident of Sussex:
I enjoyed the Richard II Incidental Music (1944) very much.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 19, 2019, 09:40:03 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 17, 2019, 04:42:44 PM
Symphony No. 7   First and Last movement from LSO/Previn, Landscapes from LPO/Boult, rest of movements from BSO/Bakels

Quote from: Christo on May 18, 2019, 04:25:03 AM
Symphony No. 7   BSO/Bakels (perhaps Haitink)

Good to see some love for BSO/Bakels, it's one of the great VW bargains. I use that disc (specifically, the long organ buildup and climax in the slow mvt.) to show off stereo equipment. It's a great-sounding CD, and the accompanying 8th Sym. is very good too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 19, 2019, 09:42:04 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 19, 2019, 03:04:13 AM
Kalmar

is conducting the London Symphony at Grant Park this summer. If I make it, this will be the 4th VW symphony I've heard under his baton!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 19, 2019, 03:39:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 19, 2019, 09:23:31 AM
Two fine VW CDs arrived here this weekend. The overlap being the lovely 'Romance' (in chamber and orchestral versions) and the very enjoyable 'Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes' - a must-have for a resident of Sussex:
I enjoyed the Richard II Incidental Music (1944) very much.
(//)

Romance for Viola and Piano is absolutely gorgeous, Jeffrey. I must revisit this work tonight.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 19, 2019, 10:15:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2019, 03:39:26 PM
Romance for Viola and Piano is absolutely gorgeous, Jeffrey. I must revisit this work tonight.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 20, 2019, 06:40:22 PM
Quote from: Christo on May 18, 2019, 04:25:03 AM
Symphony No. 2   LSO/Brabbins (1920 version)

Certainly you mean Brabbins and the BBC Scottish SO?

I suppose I should play along, too -

No. 1 - Thomson/LSO, Brabbins/BBC Scottish SO
No. 2 - Brabbins/BBC Scottish SO (1920 version)
No. 3 - Previn/LSO, Elder/Hallé
No. 4 - Bernstein/NYPO
No. 5 - Previn/LSO
No. 6 - Thomson/LSO, Previn/LSO
No. 7 - Previn/LSO, Boult/LPO
No. 8 - Thomson/LSO
No. 9 - Previn/LSO
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2019, 11:28:49 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 20, 2019, 06:40:22 PM
Certainly you mean Brabbins and the BBC Scottish SO?

I suppose I should play along, too -

No. 1 - Thomson/LSO, Brabbins/BBC Scottish SO
No. 2 - Brabbins/BBC Scottish SO (1920 version)
No. 3 - Previn/LSO, Elder/Hallé
No. 4 - Bernstein/NYPO
No. 5 - Previn/LSO
No. 6 - Thomson/LSO, Previn/LSO
No. 7 - Previn/LSO, Boult/LPO
No. 8 - Thomson/LSO
No. 9 - Previn/LSO
Great choices John. I'm less familiar with the Thomson No.8 so must give that one another listen to. The Mitropolous No.4 is another favourite but a historical recording of course.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 21, 2019, 06:20:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 20, 2019, 06:40:22 PM
Certainly you mean Brabbins and the BBC Scottish SO?

I suppose I should play along, too -

No. 1 - Thomson/LSO, Brabbins/BBC Scottish SO
No. 2 - Brabbins/BBC Scottish SO (1920 version)
No. 3 - Previn/LSO, Elder/Hallé
No. 4 - Bernstein/NYPO
No. 5 - Previn/LSO
No. 6 - Thomson/LSO, Previn/LSO
No. 7 - Previn/LSO, Boult/LPO
No. 8 - Thomson/LSO
No. 9 - Previn/LSO

Finally, I agree with one of your posts.  Except I haven't heard the Bernstein No. 4 and am intrigued.  Will check it out.  Is that the only RVW he did?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2019, 06:27:53 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 21, 2019, 06:20:48 AM
Finally, I agree with one of your posts.  Except I haven't heard the Bernstein No. 4 and am intrigued.  Will check it out.  Is that the only RVW he did?

No other symphonies but he did record the Tallis and Greensleeves fantasias and the Serenade to Music.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 21, 2019, 06:45:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 20, 2019, 11:28:49 PM
Great choices John. I'm less familiar with the Thomson No.8 so must give that one another listen to. The Mitropolous No.4 is another favourite but a historical recording of course.

Thanks, Jeffrey, although I probably could have added Boult's 6th with the LPO (EMI) to my list as well. You should definitely get to know Thomson's performance of the 8th. I didn't quite 'get' this symphony until I heard his performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2019, 07:22:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 21, 2019, 06:45:02 AM
Thanks, Jeffrey, although I probably could have added Boult's 6th with the LPO (EMI) to my list as well. You should definitely get to know Thomson's performance of the 8th. I didn't quite 'get' this symphony until I heard his performance.
Will do. Thanks John.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 21, 2019, 07:48:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 21, 2019, 07:22:15 AM
Will do. Thanks John.

You're welcome. I'll also add that Thomson made the 8th's slow movement (Cavatina --- written for strings only) come alive under his baton. This isn't to say, of course, that the rest of the symphony isn't as well performed, but I always felt this movement was the heart of the 8th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2019, 11:07:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 11, 2019, 02:26:56 AM
Interesting review of the Thomson cycle on the Musicweb site today:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Apr/VW_sys_CHAN9087.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Apr/VW_sys_CHAN9087.htm)


Thanks, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2019, 11:16:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 21, 2019, 11:07:39 AM
Thanks, Jeffrey!
My pleasure Karl
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2019, 06:03:01 AM
I can't think of another composer who wrote as gorgeous music for strings as RVW: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, Partita for Double String Orchestra, Five Variants on 'Dives and Lazarus', Concerto Grosso, among others.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2019, 12:43:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 22, 2019, 06:03:01 AM
I can't think of another composer who wrote as gorgeous music for strings as RVW: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, Partita for Double String Orchestra, Five Variants on 'Dives and Lazarus', Concerto Grosso, among others.

There is a reason why I name-checked RVW in this review (http://www.earrelevant.net/2019/05/cd-review-music-of-david-diamond-orchestras-of-indiana-university/).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 22, 2019, 05:28:44 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 22, 2019, 06:03:01 AM
I can't think of another composer who wrote as gorgeous music for strings as RVW: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, Partita for Double String Orchestra, Five Variants on 'Dives and Lazarus', Concerto Grosso, among others.

He has a unique sound with the strings that is immediately identifiable as RVW which I too adore. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2019, 06:51:39 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 22, 2019, 12:43:34 PM
There is a reason why I name-checked RVW in this review (http://www.earrelevant.net/2019/05/cd-review-music-of-david-diamond-orchestras-of-indiana-university/).

Yes, indeed. 8)

Quote from: relm1 on May 22, 2019, 05:28:44 PM
He has a unique sound with the strings that is immediately identifiable as RVW which I too adore. 

Great to read, relm1.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 22, 2019, 09:07:07 PM
Review of the new Manze CD of symphonies 7 'Antartica' and 9:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/May/VW_sys79_4190.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 22, 2019, 11:58:48 PM
The superscriptions oh dear, here we go again.  The reviewer should be aware that there is at least one more recording of the Antartica that features them, besides the three he pillories - that by Raymond Leppard and the Indianapolis SO.  On second thoughts, perhaps he should be left in ignorance, since the Leppard recording features extended spoken texts, that overlap the music on more than one occasion (not just once as with Manze) and at one point spoken text is even interpolated mid-movement.  Given his rather over-the-top response to the lightly-delivered contributions to the Manze recording Mr Quinn would probably have a seizure if he listened to Leppard.

Really, I don't think anyone should let this be a deal-breaker either way, whatever recording they choose - the superscripts are brief episodes, gone in no time, and in the case here of Timothy West delivered disarmingly, without any sense of portent or knighted self-aggrandisment.  The performance and recording are as the reviewer says, otherwise top-notch - although I find the general recording quality a bit unusual - it is remarkably detailed to be sure, but at the same time slightly recessed, veiled, perhaps you could say 'analogue' in its overall presentation.  Maybe this is the modern state of the art, I dunno. It may just be an impression because overall it is 'cut' at a lowish level, to allow space for the eventual huge climax.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 23, 2019, 05:28:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 22, 2019, 09:07:07 PM
Review of the new Manze CD of symphonies 7 'Antartica' and 9:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/May/VW_sys79_4190.htm

I'll be skipping Manze's Antartica just as I skipped all the rest of his RVW recordings except for the first-one. In fact, I wrote a review of his recording of A London Symphony and Symphony No. 8:

Andrew Manze has been slowly establishing himself as a conductor of more later music (i. e. 20th Century) as he comes from an early music background. He has performed Vaughan Williams many times (incl. a concert of "Symphonies Nos. 4-6" at the BBC Proms if I remember correctly). This recording (on Onyx) is the first in a projected cycle of Vaughan Williams' symphonies. Upon listening to this recording twice now, my reaction to the music-making is rather underwhelming in general. I think Manze has a good understanding of the music and how to make it flow, but what I'm missing is a more dramatic narrative than what's on display here. Of course, Manze has some stiff competition in both of these symphonies (and all the rest once they're released). How does Manze stack up against my favorites like Boult, Thomson, Previn, and Handley? He doesn't. It's that simple. The climaxes aren't too impressive and, while I did mention the positive of the music flowing at nice pace, Manze seems to undermine in the process some of the more lyrical moments where coaxing more emotion from the orchestra would have been welcomed. In "A London Symphony," I don't feel like I'm experiencing the city at all. I'm feeling the experience as a tourist and not someone who actually lives there. He seems so hesitant and cautious. I know he probably doesn't want to make any mistakes from a technical perspective, but a more unhinged approach would have been much more pleasing to hear. "Symphony No. 8" suffers from the same kind of reluctant approach as "A London Symphony." Some consider "Symphony No. 8" to be a puzzling work and, indeed, it doesn't give up it's secrets so easily, but, for me, along with the 3rd, 5th, 6th, it's one of his finest symphonies. The orchestration in itself is a feast for the ears, but under Manze's baton I don't feel quite the same magic as I felt before in the afore mentioned conductors. To end this rambling review, I'm not going to be buying any more of Manze's Vaughan Williams recordings and I'm going to stick to my favorites as they display more than just an understanding of the technical side of the music. In summary, more emotion Mr. Manze, more emotion!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 24, 2019, 01:00:28 AM
I haven't listened to any of the other Manze VW (because there are already so many good alternatives) and wouldn't have even considered this new 7 & 9 issue (for a start, the cover image gets my back up  >:( ) had I not been alerted - in these pages somewhere - that the treatment of the 9th was unusual.  Since I've never got on with the 9th as conducted by Boult, Previn or Haitink, I decided an 'unusual' version might be worth a listen - and so it proved (for me).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2019, 05:18:41 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 24, 2019, 01:00:28 AM
I haven't listened to any of the other Manze VW (because there are already so many good alternatives) and wouldn't have even considered this new 7 & 9 issue (for a start, the cover image gets my back up  >:( ) had I not been alerted - in these pages somewhere - that the treatment of the 9th was unusual.  Since I've never got on with the 9th as conducted by Boult, Previn or Haitink, I decided an 'unusual' version might be worth a listen - and so it proved (for me).

The 9th is quite elusive and I probably will listen to it twice once I make way to it (I'm in the midst of a traversal of the symphonies yet again). Have you heard Thomson's 9th? I recall it being excellent.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2019, 07:09:00 AM
I just read the Musicweb review of the new Manze recording. I actually like the Gielgud and Richardson recordings,with the spoken superscriptions. Particularly,the Boult;which is my favourite of the two. Both for the performance and,because I prefer Gielgud's speaking voice. Although,I don't have the same problem with Richardson as vandermolen. I think he's okay! And I didn't need to suck a Fisherman's friend after listening to him!! ;D I should point out here,that I'm not too keen on either,as actors. But Gielgud is,quite good,for that kind of work! He's got that kind of,old fashioned,actor's voice! Donat is another one,in Rawsthorne's Practical Cats. (Also,John Westbrook;who,judged by narrations for VW and Bliss recordings,would have been even better than Gielgud or Richardson!)
My idea of a nightmare,would be Brian Blessed! Although,it sounds like Vincent Price might have been a good choice for that Rozhdestvensky recording;if they included spoken superscriptions?!! ;D (And arguably,good,fun?!! ;D ;D)
My idea of a nightmare for the superscriptions is,Brian Blessed,or Simon Callow! I really,don't think I'll bother with the Manze recording. There also seem to be issues with the manner in which the superscriptions are recorded.

For the record;my favourite recordings (with or without the spoken superscriptions) are:

Boult/Mono rec
Barbirolli
Haitink
Previn

The Haitink is fantastic,imo. Not only,the  first recording I ever heard of this work;but one of the first cd's I ever heard. (I had two,from the library. I think the other one was de Falla?!!)

Oh,and Boult's stereo recording! (Runner up!) I'd probably play it more,if emi hadn't added,The Wasps!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: ritter on May 24, 2019, 07:31:04 AM
Quote from: Introverted on May 24, 2019, 07:16:52 AM
NP:

[asin]B000LC4B34[/asin]

Bartók: String Quartet #5, SZ 102
Finally! Some good music in the RVW thread.  ;D (Just joking...sorry, couldn't help it  ;)).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Introverted on May 24, 2019, 07:32:14 AM
Quote from: ritter on May 24, 2019, 07:31:04 AM
Finally! Some good music in the RVW thread.  ;D (Just joking...sorry, couldn't help it  ;)).

lol, yeah sorry guys - removed the post and changed to WAYLTN :-[ :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2019, 07:42:33 AM
Quote from: ritter on May 24, 2019, 07:31:04 AM
Finally! Some good music in the RVW thread.  ;D (Just joking...sorry, couldn't help it  ;)).

I could say something similar if that post landed in ol' Pierre's "composer" thread. Notice the quotations around the word composer. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2019, 08:16:38 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 24, 2019, 07:09:00 AM
For the record;my favourite recordings (with or without the spoken superscriptions) are:

Boult/Mono rec
Barbirolli
Haitink
Previn

We agree! Of the nine I own, my top three are Boult (Decca), Haitink and Previn (don't own or know the Barbirolli recording).

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2019, 11:03:11 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 24, 2019, 07:09:00 AM
I just read the Musicweb review of the new Manze recording. I actually like the Gielgud and Richardson recordings,with the spoken superscriptions. Particularly,the Boult;which is my favourite of the two. Both for the performance and,because I prefer Gielgud's speaking voice. Although,I don't have the same problem with Richardson as vandermolen. I think he's okay! And I didn't need to suck a Fisherman's friend after listening to him!! ;D I should point out here,that I'm not too keen on either,as actors. But Gielgud is,quite good,for that kind of work! He's got that kind of,old fashioned,actor's voice! Donat is another one,in Rawsthorne's Practical Cats. (Also,John Westbrook;who,judged by narrations for VW and Bliss recordings,would have been even better than Gielgud or Richardson!)
My idea of a nightmare,would be Brian Blessed! Although,it sounds like Vincent Price might have been a good choice for that Rozhdestvensky recording;if they included spoken superscriptions?!! ;D (And arguably,good,fun?!! ;D ;D)
My idea of a nightmare for the superscriptions is,Brian Blessed,or Simon Callow! I really,don't think I'll bother with the Manze recording. There also seem to be issues with the manner in which the superscriptions are recorded.

For the record;my favourite recordings (with or without the spoken superscriptions) are:

Boult/Mono rec
Barbirolli
Haitink
Previn

The Haitink is fantastic,imo. Not only,the  first recording I ever heard of this work;but one of the first cd's I ever heard. (I had two,from the library. I think the other one was de Falla?!!)

Oh,and Boult's stereo recording! (Runner up!) I'd probably play it more,if emi hadn't added,The Wasps!! ::) ;D

In celebration of this discussion I'm playing the Previn recording of Sinfonia Antartica, complete with Sir Ralph sounding like he's on the verge of a coughing fit. I like this CD as it also features my favourite recording of Symphony 8, although I need to listen to Bryden Thomson's version again following enthusiastic reactions to it here. At the risk of going round and round in circles in a kind of 'Groundhog Day' and driving everyone nuts, let me repeat that I quite like the spoken introductions on disc, although I also enjoy versions without them. Your idea of Vincent Price performing the narration for the Rozhdestvensky version (with the haywire organist) is brilliant. I'm old enough to remember Vincent Price's TV cookery programme 'Cooking Price Wise' - one of the most unintentionally funny TV programmes that I've ever seen. I remember enjoying watching it with my father in my youth. Yes, Simon Callow would be the worst possible choice (for Sinfonia Antartica). The old Boult Decca recording is my favourite version too. As I've said before I think that Boult's objective style really suits this symphony. I also have a morbid fascination with the Captain Scott story (another Great British Disaster) which may be another reason why I rather like the spoken superscriptions. Also VW did write for the spoken voice elsewhere, in works like 'An Oxford Elegy' and the underrated 'Thanksgiving for Victory' (one of those quirky works like 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' which I like very much, despite my brother remarking that the latter reminded me of the children's favourite 'Sparky's Magic Piano)'. As an actor I prefer Richardson to Gielgud and Robert Donat was a wonderful actor.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2019, 12:58:13 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2019, 08:16:38 AM
We agree! Of the nine I own, my top three are Boult (Decca), Haitink and Previn (don't own or know the Barbirolli recording).

Sarge

I certainly affirm and endorse the Haitink & Previn.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on May 24, 2019, 05:07:53 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 19, 2019, 09:23:31 AM
Two fine VW CDs arrived here this weekend. The overlap being the lovely 'Romance' (in chamber and orchestral versions) and the very enjoyable 'Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes' - a must-have for a resident of Sussex:
I enjoyed the Richard II Incidental Music (1944) very much.
(//)

Nota bene for anyone on the North American side of the Pond
The Viola Fantasia CD Is one of Arkivmusic's Weekend Specials this weekend
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2019, 07:45:46 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 24, 2019, 11:03:11 AM
In celebration of this discussion I'm playing the Previn recording of Sinfonia Antartica, complete with Sir Ralph sounding like he's on the verge of a coughing fit. I like this CD as it also features my favourite recording of Symphony 8, although I need to listen to Bryden Thomson's version again following enthusiastic reactions to it here. At the risk of going round and round in circles in a kind of 'Groundhog Day' and driving everyone nuts, let me repeat that I quite like the spoken introductions on disc, although I also enjoy versions without them. Your idea of Vincent Price performing the narration for the Rozhdestvensky version (with the haywire organist) is brilliant. I'm old enough to remember Vincent Price's TV cookery programme 'Cooking Price Wise' - one of the most unintentionally funny TV programmes that I've ever seen. I remember enjoying watching it with my father in my youth. Yes, Simon Callow would be the worst possible choice (for Sinfonia Antartica). The old Boult Decca recording is my favourite version too. As I've said before I think that Boult's objective style really suits this symphony. I also have a morbid fascination with the Captain Scott story (another Great British Disaster) which may be another reason why I rather like the spoken superscriptions. Also VW did write for the spoken voice elsewhere, in works like 'An Oxford Elegy' and the underrated 'Thanksgiving for Victory' (one of those quirky works like 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' which I like very much, despite my brother remarking that the latter reminded me of the children's favourite 'Sparky's Magic Piano)'. As an actor I prefer Richardson to Gielgud and Robert Donat was a wonderful actor.

I'm rather ambivalent about spoken words in symphonic music (or any music for that matter). Sometimes I can tolerate if it's not too intrusive but there's other times where I'm just wondering what was even the point? When it comes to RVW's Sinfonia Antartica, I'm of the 'what's the point?' opinion. What I usually do if the recording allows me to is edit out those spoken introductions. I know I remember doing this with the Previn recording. I think Boult's performance on EMI is the best one I've heard, but I love Previn's and Thomson's as well. I feel that Thomson's cycle on Chandos is one of the best on record. I have not heard one performance that wasn't committed, thought-provoking, and, most of all, emotionally moving.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2019, 10:06:47 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 24, 2019, 07:45:46 PM
I'm rather ambivalent about spoken words in symphonic music (or any music for that matter). Sometimes I can tolerate if it's not too intrusive but there's other times where I'm just wondering what was even the point? When it comes to RVW's Sinfonia Antartica, I'm of the 'what's the point?' opinion. What I usually do if the recording allows me to is edit out those spoken introductions. I know I remember doing this with the Previn recording. I think Boult's performance on EMI is the best one I've heard, but I love Previn's and Thomson's as well. I feel that Thomson's cycle on Chandos is one of the best on record. I have not heard one performance that wasn't committed, thought-provoking, and, most of all, emotionally moving.
Totally agree with you about Thomson John and I also prefer his Bax cycle to Handley's. I also think that Boult's EMI Sinfonia Antartica, without the spoken intros, is a very special performance. When I was at college my friends had a copy of the LP, with the fine Antarctic landscape on the front, and we played it over and over again - happy memories for me:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on May 25, 2019, 02:06:08 AM
I'm with John on this (spoken words). The tragic Scott expedition is fully conveyed by the music alone, I feel chilly listening to it!

Did RVW himself express any views on whether dialogue should be included?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 25, 2019, 03:01:04 AM
Quote from: Irons on May 25, 2019, 02:06:08 AM
I'm with John on this (spoken words). The tragic Scott expedition is fully conveyed by the music alone, I feel chilly listening to it!

Did RVW himself express any views on whether dialogue should be included?

Yes, in the score - the 3rd and 4th movements are to be played without a break.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 25, 2019, 03:49:43 AM
Quote from: Irons on May 25, 2019, 02:06:08 AM
Did RVW himself express any views on whether dialogue should be included?

Some hearsay - quoted from the sleevenotes for the Leppard recording of the Antartica - amounting to a tacit endorsement by VW.  If true.
QuoteMaestro Leppard soon recounted the story of a meeting which took place between he and Vaughan Williams.  It was during this meeting that the composer suggested to Raymond Leppard that excerpts of Captain Scott's journals accompany the Sinfonia antartica in place of the text of Shelley, Donne and Coleridge called for in the original score.

As to "what's the point" I would suggest from his delivery Timothy West might agree - certainly in the case of the 2nd superscript, the Leviathan one - which he tosses away like a used tissue.  (The 3rd one on the other hand, he does rather well.)
Editing - all the superscriptions on the Manze recording would be easy to clip out (or track separately, which of course they should have done - and is what I have done) and yes between movements 3 and 4 there will be an audible edit in the (quiet) music but not a terribly hard or offensive one, over in a flash, really no music is lost (one held note transitions to another under the speech - remove the speech and you still get to hear both held notes, just a bit shorter).

Quote from: cilgwyn on May 24, 2019, 07:09:00 AM
There also seem to be issues with the manner in which the superscriptions are recorded.

So that reviewer says.  So they are recorded on a separate occasion, in a different location and acoustic**.  So is the organ, in this and almost all other recordings of the Antartica.  No-one bats an eyelid about that.

** I'd be willing to bet that the 'empty hall' he hears on the voice recording is 90% artificial anyway.  I know a box of digits when I hear one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 25, 2019, 04:01:16 AM
When did this alleged meeting take place, bearing in mind RVW died in 1958. Why should he suggest such a thing to a young harpsichordist and conductor of baroque music?

Edit: In the absence of any definitive statement from the composer himself the article on p3 of this journal has some interesting things to say about the literary superscriptions - https://rvwsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/rvw_journal_21.pdf
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 05:34:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 24, 2019, 10:06:47 PM
Totally agree with you about Thomson John and I also prefer his Bax cycle to Handley's. I also think that Boult's EMI Sinfonia Antartica, without the spoken intros, is a very special performance. When I was at college my friends had a copy of the LP, with the fine Antarctic landscape on the front, and we played it over and over again - happy memories for me:
(//)

Very nice, Jeffrey. I really like those original Boult LP covers. Handley is one of my least favorites in RVW. He's a good conductor but, like Manze, there's something missing in his performances.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 07:08:13 AM
I know this has been brought up before, but I don't mind bringing up old wounds or joys for other members: what do all of you think of Haitink's cycle? If you would be so kind to oblige me in perhaps telling me (for those that enjoy the cycle) what symphonies do you feel Haitink got right and which ones seemed to go over his head? I haven't listened to any of Haitink's RVW in years and last time I listened to it, I was taken aback by the lack of energy and almost the slug-like tempi that were chosen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2019, 07:45:49 AM
How stupid am I!  I replied to a post this morning about the Vaughan Williams Variations for Brass Band - wanted to go back to edit it but can't remember which thread it was on and can't find it!  So my "edit" will have to go here.  My comment was about the coupling of these Variations on the Brabbins/Hyperion/London Symphony disc and how to my ear it didn't sound like a proper "brass band" even though it was listed as played by "The Royal College of Music Brass Band".  Something about this ensemble didn't sound right to me - when did a Conservatoire provide 'specialist' training for brass band.... never when I was at one for sure. 

So I checked out the RCM website and indeed they offer a plethora of ensembles and orchestras for their students to participate in..... but no brass band is listed - www.rcm.ac.uk/life/preparingforprofession/ensembles/ .  So, as I thought, this is an ensemble of (very good) brass players from the College but in no way is it a brass band.  You only need to listen to a minute of this performance to know that but it irks me a little that Hyperion have 'faked' a name.  I guess it made for a cheap filler - I doubt they paid MU rates for that recording.......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 25, 2019, 08:58:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 07:08:13 AM
I know this has been brought up before, but I don't mind bringing up old wounds or joys for other members: what do all of you think of Haitink's cycle? If you would be so kind to oblige me in perhaps telling me (for those that enjoy the cycle) what symphonies do you feel Haitink got right and which ones seemed to go over his head? I haven't listened to any of Haitink's RVW in years and last time I listened to it, I was taken aback by the lack of energy and almost the slug-like tempi that were chosen.

The only Haitink disc I have is the 3/4, which I bought because it got good reviews pretty much all round. I find the leisurely ("slug-like") tempi work really well in the Pastoral. It's a very dark, mellow kind of landscape, and I think he's very successful in sustaining the atmosphere throughout. The 4th is also good, but sounds a bit generic by comparison by with the 3rd.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 25, 2019, 09:02:56 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 25, 2019, 08:58:48 AM
The only Haitink disc I have is the 3/4, which I bought because it got good reviews pretty much all round. I find the leisurely ("slug-like") tempi work really well in the Pastoral. It's a very dark, mellow kind of landscape, and I think he's very successful in sustaining the atmosphere throughout. The 4th is also good, but sounds a bit generic by comparison by with the 3rd.

That was my entrée to the Pastoral, and I was hooked.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2019, 11:38:42 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 07:08:13 AMlast time I listened to it, I was taken aback by the lack of energy and almost the slug-like tempi that were chosen.

Listen to his Fourth. Energy to spare and quite the opposite of slug-like tempi. But yeah, in many of the symphonies his tempi are on the broad side...which is one of the reasons I love his cycle. Slow gives me time to absorb and appreciate the details. His is my desert island VW. Especially love his 1, 3 (stoic grandeur), 5, 7, 8 and 9.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 07:05:57 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 25, 2019, 08:58:48 AM
The only Haitink disc I have is the 3/4, which I bought because it got good reviews pretty much all round. I find the leisurely ("slug-like") tempi work really well in the Pastoral. It's a very dark, mellow kind of landscape, and I think he's very successful in sustaining the atmosphere throughout. The 4th is also good, but sounds a bit generic by comparison by with the 3rd.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2019, 09:02:56 AM
That was my entrée to the Pastoral, and I was hooked.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2019, 11:38:42 AM
Listen to his Fourth. Energy to spare and quite the opposite of slug-like tempi. But yeah, in many of the symphonies his tempi are on the broad side...which is one of the reasons I love his cycle. Slow gives me time to absorb and appreciate the details. His is my desert island VW. Especially love his 1, 3 (stoic grandeur), 5, 7, 8 and 9.

Sarge

Thanks for the feedback, gents. Looks like I might have to listen more attentively and give ol' Bernard a chance. I'll listen to his Pastoral and, if I like it, I'll proceed with the rest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 25, 2019, 08:39:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 07:08:13 AM
I know this has been brought up before, but I don't mind bringing up old wounds or joys for other members: what do all of you think of Haitink's cycle? If you would be so kind to oblige me in perhaps telling me (for those that enjoy the cycle) what symphonies do you feel Haitink got right and which ones seemed to go over his head? I haven't listened to any of Haitink's RVW in years and last time I listened to it, I was taken aback by the lack of energy and almost the slug-like tempi that were chosen.

I never 'got' A Sea Symphony until I heard Haitink's performance which was and still is a revelation to me - especially the music of the finale, so I shall always be grateful for that. I have his VW and Shostakovich boxed sets. The other performance I rather like is of the enigmatic Symphony No.6 which I think few conductors get right (I like the Boult LPO and LSO recordings and those by Abravanel - especially as he does not rush the last movement like so many others, Thomson, Andrew Davis and Barbirolli). Haitink's recording of Shostakovich's 13th Symphony 'Babi-Yar' moved me like no other version. I've seen him conduct several times, mainly Bruckner and Shostakovich and always thought highly of those performances. I agree with you about Handley's VW cycle. It is good but none of his recordings would be my chosen version although the harps at the end of No.9 are very good and I like his Liverpool version of A London Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 08:44:10 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 25, 2019, 08:39:30 PM
I never 'got' A Sea Symphony until I heard Haitink's performance which was and still is a revelation to me - especially the music of the finale, so I shall always be grateful for that. I have his VW and Shostakovich boxed sets. The other performance I rather like is of the enigmatic Symphony No.6 which I think few conductors get right (I like the Boult LPO and LSO recordings and those by Abravanel - especially as he does not rush the last movement like so many others, Thomson, Andrew Davis and Barbirolli). Haitink's recording of Shostakovich's 13th Symphony 'Babi-Yar' moved me like no other version. I've seen him conduct several times, mainly Bruckner and Shostakovich and always thought highly of those performances. I agree with you about Handley's VW cycle. It is good but none of his recordings would be my chosen version although the harps at the end of No.9 are very good and I like his Liverpool version of A London Symphony.

Very nice, Jeffrey. A Sea Symphony is a rather difficult one to get right much like the 6th is as well. Haitink is a fine conductor, but how would say he does in the 5th or 8th?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 25, 2019, 08:56:13 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 08:44:10 PM
Very nice, Jeffrey. A Sea Symphony is a rather difficult one to get right much like the 6th is as well. Haitink is a fine conductor, but how would say he does in the 5th or 8th?
You must be a night owl John! Normally I expect a several hours time lag between communications between our British/European and American friends but not with you!  8)
I need to listen again to 5 and 8. I do, however, remember enjoying the CD release featuring symphonies 8 and 9 when it first came out.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 09:03:27 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 25, 2019, 08:56:13 PM
You must be a night owl John! Normally I expect a several hours time lag between communications between our British/European and American friends but not with you!  8)
I need to listen again to 5 and 8. I do, however, remember enjoying the CD release featuring symphonies 8 and 9 when it first came out.

Well, it's 1 AM here right now, so I wouldn't necessarily call myself a night owl, but this is when I do start winding down and getting ready for bed. :) The 8th is another symphony that's difficult to pull off. I would say that really those last symphonies like 6 through 9 take a conductor that's up for the challenge and not every conductor succeeds in these particular symphonies. I guess you could really say that all of the RVW symphonies present particular challenges for a conductor and orchestra.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 25, 2019, 09:07:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 09:03:27 PM
Well, it's 1 AM here right now, so I wouldn't necessarily call myself a night owl, but this is when I do start winding down and getting ready for bed. :) The 8th is another symphony that's difficult to pull off. I would say that really those last symphonies like 6 through 9 take a conductor that's up for the challenge and not every conductor succeeds in these particular symphonies. I guess you could really say that all of the RVW symphonies present particular challenges for a conductor and orchestra.

I just checked up the time in your part of the world and it is earlier than I thought  :) I had this vision of you listening to VW, Dutilleux, Debussy, Delius and Walton at 3.00am  :o.

Totally agree with your VW comments above. I'm currently (6.00am here) listening to my nice new CD of VW's Viola music. Doesn't go down well here if I play Symphony 4 or 6 at top volume at this hour.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 09:12:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 25, 2019, 09:07:34 PM
I just checked up the time in your part of the world and it is earlier than I thought  :) I had this vision of you listening to VW, Dutilleux, Debussy, Delius and Walton at 3.00am  :o.

Totally agree with your VW comments above. I'm currently (6.00am here) listening to my nice new CD of VW's Viola music. Doesn't go down well here if I play Symphony 4 or 6 at top volume at this hour.  8)

Hah! Yeah, I'm too tired to listen to anything at 3 AM. :) I'm currently going through Thomson's cycle on Chandos and plan on listening to the Sinfonia Antartica and Symphony No. 8 (will save Symphony No. 9 for Monday). I'm also interested in going through Arnold's and Rubbra's symphonies again, but also Nielsen's and Sibelius'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 25, 2019, 09:23:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 25, 2019, 09:12:12 PM
Hah! Yeah, I'm too tired to listen to anything at 3 AM. :) I'm currently going through Thomson's cycle on Chandos and plan on listening to the Sinfonia Antartica and Symphony No. 8 (will save Symphony No. 9 for Monday). I'm also interested in going through Arnold's and Rubbra's symphonies again, but also Nielsen's and Sibelius'.
Well, I have a nice new Nielsen boxed set to discover :).
Those four are amongst my favourite symphonists. Rubbra is very interesting, especially symphonies 4-8 all of which I rate very highly. Maybe 4,5 and 7 are my absolute favourites and there is a fabulous Boult Lyrita CD featuring Symphony 7 and a Barbirolli one of Symphony 5.
Here are two great LP discoveries of my younger self and my introductions to both Rubbra's symphonies and to VW's Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus - one of my favourite works.

(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 26, 2019, 05:29:24 AM
Very nice, Jeffrey. Both of those look like nice recordings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on May 26, 2019, 05:38:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 25, 2019, 09:23:33 PM
Well, I have a nice new Nielsen boxed set to discover :).
Those four are amongst my favourite symphonists. Rubbra is very interesting, especially symphonies 4-8 all of which I rate very highly. Maybe 4,5 and 7 are my absolute favourites and there is a fabulous Boult Lyrita CD featuring Symphony 7 and a Barbirolli one of Symphony 5.
Here are two great LP discoveries of my younger self and my introductions to both Rubbra's symphonies and to VW's Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus - one of my favourite works.

(//)

I have both of those LP's of my "older" self, Jeffrey. :) I had forgotten that Boult Tallis on Lyrita. Also Sargent, poor old "flash Harry" tends to be pushed to the margins but he made some great recordings of English music including RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 26, 2019, 06:52:21 AM
(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/q/1/5/i/6/m/spotlight-mirror.svg.hi.png)Compositional Spotlight - Flos campi(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/u/s/u/O/Y/X/theatre-spotlight-hi.png)

(https://snowangelz.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/poppy-field.jpg)

Vaughan Williams played the viola, and frequently professed it was his favorite instrument. Along with the Suite for viola and orchestra of 1934, his most significant work for the instrument is the unusual Flos Campi (Flower of the Field), which combines the viola with a spare orchestral backing of strings, winds, tabor, and celesta, along with a mixed choir that sings wordlessly. It was first performed on October 10, 1925, in London, with violist Lionel Tertis, voices from the Royal College of Music, and the Queen's Hall Orchestra conducted by Sir Henry Wood. The reaction was mixed, and even such close friends of the composer as Gustav Holst admitted themselves puzzled by this subtle and voluptuous work.

In a program note for a 1927 performance, Vaughan Williams admitted "The title Flos Campi was taken by some to connote an atmosphere of 'buttercups and daisies....'" This is, in fact, far from the atmosphere of this work. Each of its six movements is headed by a quotation from the Old Testament's Song of Solomon, and it is the passionate quality of that text which informs Flos Campi. The work opens with the juxtaposition of viola and oboe, both playing melodically but in different keys, creating palpable tension. This opening movement is languorous and mysterious, its associated text speaking of the sickness of love, of how it is a "lily among thorns." Nature springs to life in the second movement, with the "singing of birds" and the "voice of the turtle." But the beloved is not present, and the third movement is passionate and agitated, with the viola accompanied mostly by the women of the choir. Men "expert in war" are at Solomon's bed in the vigorous fourth-movement march, in which the violist has an opportunity for some virtuoso display. The music builds to a rather tense climax, at which point we hear the murmuring of voices, over which the viola soars longingly. The orchestra takes up this music in a more peaceful strain, and the choir sings in sweet polyphony. The opening viola-oboe duet returns, but its ambivalence is resolved as the melodic material of the fifth movement is taken up again in a quiet and magical coda.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I first heard Flos Campi, I was rather taken with its' inherit beauty, but it was still rather unusual of a work for me. It took me several listens before coming to grips with its' structure and what it's possible intent could have been. I'll never truly know what this work means and what the purpose of it was, but that's rather unimportant when you're listening to it. It's really a strange phenomenon --- the way the work kind of lingers around and, if mist ever had any sound at all, this would certainly be close to it. I love the piece and even though I remain rather baffled by it, this never hindered my enjoyment of it nor of the ravishing sonorities RVW conjured up. One of a kind piece of music.

Reference recording: Cecil Aronowitz (viola), The King's College Choir of Cambridge, Jacques Orchestra, Sir David Willcocks (EMI)

What do you guys think of the work? Any favorite performances?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 26, 2019, 07:26:35 AM
This is the one I listen to the most. Transitioning from the brute-strength of the 4th Symphony into Flos Campi always captivates me. And the performances are spot-on, especially the lovely Flos Campi, and both recorded with excellent clarity.


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71uRH2F388L._SL1050_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 26, 2019, 07:51:05 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 26, 2019, 07:26:35 AM
This is the one I listen to the most. Transitioning from the brute-strength of the 4th Symphony into Flos Campi always captivates me. And the performances are spot-on, especially the lovely Flos Campi, and both recorded with excellent clarity.


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71uRH2F388L._SL1050_.jpg)

I own the complete RVW on Naxos but embarrassingly haven't even listened to any of it. Might have to do so soon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 26, 2019, 08:04:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 26, 2019, 07:51:05 AM
I own the complete RVW on Naxos but embarrassingly haven't even listened to any of it. Might have to do so soon.

Kees Bakels conducted Bournemouth on Naxos in all the symphonies, except for A Sea Symphony, and I think Paul Daniels has only recorded a few on them. I own the Kees Bakels recordings and I think they are well done.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 26, 2019, 08:24:00 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 26, 2019, 08:04:08 AM
Kees Bakels conducted Bournemouth on Naxos in all the symphonies, except for A Sea Symphony, and I think Paul Daniels has only recorded a few on them. I own the Kees Bakels recordings and I think they are well done.

Paul Daniel (Paul Daniels was the magician!) also did No.4
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 26, 2019, 09:48:03 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 26, 2019, 08:24:00 AM
Paul Daniel (Paul Daniels was the magician!) also did No.4

Watch that (s) disappear!

(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/tv/2016/03/07/paul-daniels_1.jpg?imwidth=450)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 26, 2019, 01:33:09 PM
Thought I'd join the Thomson/Vaughan Williams party.
Listening tonight to the very atmospheric and moving recording of A London Symphony:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 27, 2019, 12:19:11 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 26, 2019, 09:48:03 AM
(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/tv/2016/03/07/paul-daniels_1.jpg?imwidth=450)

That's quite a short baton he uses.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2019, 07:05:15 AM
Question on the Vaughan Williams Symphonies - I currently own the sets w/ Previn (far left below) and Haitink - just finished listening to my Previn box which has wonderful sound (stated 24-bit so assume a much more recent remastering than when the recordings were made) - however, yesterday in the listening thread, another box (bottom far right) was posted - assume same recordings, but possibly different 're-mastering' dates, don't know?

However, my Previn box comes w/ NO booklet and the other is stated to have an excellent one - tried to search yesterday online for a possible booklet download w/ no luck - not worth my effort to invest in the other set just for the notes, and not sure which one has the better sound?  But if anyone knows a source/URL for the booklet, please let me know.  Thanks - Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81BDwVPWHdL._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71gf4vvcRAL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/418-MdGvsKL.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 28, 2019, 08:08:37 AM
The set with the landscape on the cover dates from 2003 when the RCA catalogue was owned by BMG Classics; as I understand it RCA is now part of the Sony group. The BMG set has a fairly detailed booklet (though nothing startling in it) but it contains no technical information whatsoever, not even recording dates. The Sony issue is more recent but I have no information about it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2019, 08:16:22 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 28, 2019, 08:08:37 AM
The set with the landscape on the cover dates from 2003 when the RCA catalogue was owned by BMG Classics; as I understand it RCA is now part of the Sony group. The BMG set has a fairly detailed booklet (though nothing startling in it) but it contains no technical information whatsoever, not even recording dates. The Sony issue is more recent but I have no information about it.

Thanks - the CD sleeves in my box collection have recording dates from 1968-1972 - the 2003 date is on the back of the box which I assume is when the remastering was done.  The only other information as noted previously is the 24-bit sound label, and ADD -> DDD, as expected - Dave :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 28, 2019, 09:15:02 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2019, 08:16:22 AM
Thanks - the CD sleeves in my box collection have recording dates from 1968-1972 - the 2003 date is on the back of the box which I assume is when the remastering was done.  The only other information as noted previously is the 24-bit sound label, and ADD -> DDD, as expected - Dave :)

No recording can ever go from ADD to DDD if that's what you mean....  The "A" refers to the format of the original recording method - therefore analogue in this instance.  Given the amount of material available online I would never buy a set now because of the notes it came with.  The Sony remastering - whatever 24 bit really means is very good as far as the average listener/sound system is concerned & has meant that I've sold on all of the original RCA releases which were some of the first CD's I ever bought back in the 80's.....

[asin]B0000261MF[/asin]

this kind of cover...... the notes with these original "full price" releases were pretty rubbish anyway!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 28, 2019, 09:27:24 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 28, 2019, 09:15:02 AM
No recording can ever go from ADD to DDD if that's what you mean....  The "A" refers to the format of the original recording method - therefore analogue in this instance.  Given the amount of material available online I would never buy a set now because of the notes it came with.  The Sony remastering - whatever 24 bit really means is very good as far as the average listener/sound system is concerned & has meant that I've sold on all of the original RCA releases which were some of the first CD's I ever bought back in the 80's.....

In principal "24 bit remastering" confers no advantage if you are receiving the recording on a 16-bit resolution CD, except it makes it easier for remastering engineer to do whatever editing and audio processing they need to do without loss of resolution. There can be an indirect advantage.

However, those later releases from Sony do sound dramatically better, and from what I've read it is because they went back to the original session tapes, rather than using mixed and edited tapes that had been previously prepared for LP releases. The difference is especially noticeable in the most recent issues of the Bernstein recordings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2019, 09:36:35 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 28, 2019, 09:15:02 AM
No recording can ever go from ADD to DDD if that's what you mean....  The "A" refers to the format of the original recording method - therefore analogue in this instance.  Given the amount of material available online I would never buy a set now because of the notes it came with.  The Sony remastering - whatever 24 bit really means is very good as far as the average listener/sound system is concerned & has meant that I've sold on all of the original RCA releases which were some of the first CD's I ever bought back in the 80's.....

Well, thank you but I'm well aware of the process, i.e. the original recordings were made using analog tape, in the process of putting the material onto a CD, an ADC was used to convert the analog signal to digital for the CD transfer - I've been collecting CDs since 1984 the know the technology - sorry that my apparent use of an 'arrow' was confusing.  Thanks for your input.  Dave :)   P.S. as to 16 bit vs. 24 bit, another debated topic over the years, but my 'aging ears' likely does not notice much difference, if any - aural psychoacoustics can be humbling at times - ;) 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 28, 2019, 09:59:51 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2019, 08:16:22 AM
Thanks - the CD sleeves in my box collection have recording dates from 1968-1972 - the 2003 date is on the back of the box which I assume is when the remastering was done.  The only other information as noted previously is the 24-bit sound label, and ADD -> DDD, as expected - Dave :)

The remastering of lp to cd was done some time in the 1980s. 2003 is the date when the various recordings were collected together in a box. Whether they were also remastered there is no way of telling from the information on the two box sets. The Slatkin cycle, also RCA definitely has been remastered (24 bit) and it says so on the box.

To my ageing ears the Previn sounds pretty good whatever has been done to it.

The notes are better than 'rubbish' but not worth worrying about - just basic information.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2019, 10:45:31 AM
Just had a look at the booklet. It's much better than nothing and has individual sections on the symphonies and contains the words of A Sea Symphony etc plus a nice photo of VW and the Victoria Embankment in London which looks around the time of A Sea Symphony, if not earlier. It annoyed me that those later RCA boxes had no notes at all. Even a cheapo label like Brilliant Classics includes notes in their boxed sets. However, I agree that it's not worth losing sleep over the notes. My advice would be to get a copy of the nice, approachable, illustrated biography of Vaughan Williams by Paul Holmes to supplement your listening experience.
PS actually the excellent James Day biography is even cheaper and goes into much more detail on the music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2019, 12:34:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 28, 2019, 10:45:31 AM
Just had a look at the booklet. It's much better than nothing and has individual sections on the symphonies and contains the words of A Sea Symphony etc plus a nice photo of VW and the Victoria Embankment in London which looks around the time of A Sea Symphony, if not earlier. It annoyed me that those later RCA boxes had no notes at all. Even a cheapo label like Brilliant Classics includes notes in their boxed sets. However, I agree that it's not worth losing sleep over the notes. My advice would be to get a copy of the nice, approachable, illustrated biography of Vaughan Williams by Paul Holmes to supplement your listening experience.
PS actually the excellent James Day biography is even cheaper and goes into much more detail on the music.

Hi Jeffrey - the other day when I started listening to my Vaughan Williams collection, I thought about reading a biography of him - he had a long and interesting life; so thanks for the suggestions above - consequently, I looked on Amazon and wanting a Kindle edition at a decent price found the fairly new one (2015; 2017 e-book) shown below which has been well received by the Amazonians - so now on my iPad - have not read a composer's bio in a while and should enjoy.  Dave :)
.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-rPTFcMv/0/ceac6dc0/O/RVWBio.png)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2019, 03:00:33 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2019, 12:34:06 PM
Hi Jeffrey - the other day when I started listening to my Vaughan Williams collection, I thought about reading a biography of him - he had a long and interesting life; so thanks for the suggestions above - consequently, I looked on Amazon and wanting a Kindle edition at a decent price found the fairly new one (2015; 2017 e-book) shown below which has been well received by the Amazonians - so now on my iPad - have not read a composer's bio in a while and should enjoy.  Dave :)
.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-rPTFcMv/0/ceac6dc0/O/RVWBio.png)
Hi Dave,
I have that one but have only browsed through it. It had rather mixed reviews. The James Day one is very good (under £10 on Amazon UK) although I disagree with him on the Tuba Concerto, which he is rather negative about. The biographies by Ursula Vaughan Williams and Michael Kennedy are rather 'court biographies' and avoid all the difficult stuff about his affair with Ursula whilst still living with the crippled Adeline. The Kennedy book is very good on the music however.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 29, 2019, 10:16:56 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2019, 09:36:35 AM
Well, thank you but I'm well aware of the process, i.e. the original recordings were made using analog tape, in the process of putting the material onto a CD, an ADC was used to convert the analog signal to digital for the CD transfer - I've been collecting CDs since 1984 the know the technology - sorry that my apparent use of an 'arrow' was confusing.  Thanks for your input.  Dave :)   P.S. as to 16 bit vs. 24 bit, another debated topic over the years, but my 'aging ears' likely does not notice much difference, if any - aural psychoacoustics can be humbling at times - ;)

I think Baron Scarpia has put his finger on the answer - the "24 bit" thing is a red herring however the use of the original analogue masters is where the improvement lies.  Certainly the Bernstein/CBS/Mahler sounds remarkable in the latest remastered version and I do think the Previn/RVW sounds better than my early CD copies.  For the bargain price a lot of those Sony remastered sets have come up very spick and span.

I must admit I didn't know what you meant by the > but I didn't really think you were not aware of the ADD descriptor!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 30, 2019, 01:47:52 AM
In any case the midde 'D' in those codes is somewhat ambiguous - by present standards a mid-80s RCA CD of older analogue material would be AAD - by these standards ADD wasn't really possible before the early/mid '90s - however if such a CD (I can't find one in my collection) was indeed labelled ADD that could also be correct by the standards pertaining at the time (analogue session tapes mixed down onto a digital recorder) - or it could be borderline mis-labelling but very commonly done (analogue session tapes mixed down onto an analogue recorder, at some point subsequently copied as a digital recording).

I digress, sorry!  Back to:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0d/Vaughan-williams-hopp%C3%A9.jpg/220px-Vaughan-williams-hopp%C3%A9.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 30, 2019, 05:58:32 AM
I thought this documentary was a good overview of RVW and his life/music/loves.
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-35bvwz4b63/images/stencil/1000x1000/products/11861/19324/cruxgz001dvd__53642.1540254322.jpg?c=2)

Have any of you seen it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 30, 2019, 06:33:36 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 30, 2019, 05:58:32 AM
I thought this documentary was a good overview of RVW and his life/music/loves.
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-35bvwz4b63/images/stencil/1000x1000/products/11861/19324/cruxgz001dvd__53642.1540254322.jpg?c=2)

Have any of you seen it?

Yes, I thought it was excellent. I have it on DVD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 30, 2019, 08:44:41 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 30, 2019, 01:47:52 AM
In any case the midde 'D' in those codes is somewhat ambiguous - by present standards a mid-80s RCA CD of older analogue material would be AAD - by these standards ADD wasn't really possible before the early/mid '90s - however if such a CD (I can't find one in my collection) was indeed labelled ADD that could also be correct by the standards pertaining at the time (analogue session tapes mixed down onto a digital recorder) - or it could be borderline mis-labelling but very commonly done (analogue session tapes mixed down onto an analogue recorder, at some point subsequently copied as a digital recording).

Well, not to belabor the point - below is the description on the lower back of the box - possibly the first CD releases were ADD, then the recordings were re-done to 24-bit DDD?  Just my guess, plus I have no booklet that might explain the mixing sequences - out of interest, I would send Sony an email but would not expect an answer so a waste of time, in my mind.  Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-DTwDgZZ/0/1d3bc08e/M/VW_Previn-M.png)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 30, 2019, 08:47:06 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 30, 2019, 05:58:32 AM
I thought this documentary was a good overview of RVW and his life/music/loves.
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-35bvwz4b63/images/stencil/1000x1000/products/11861/19324/cruxgz001dvd__53642.1540254322.jpg?c=2)

Have any of you seen it?

Guys - documentary piques my interest - the Amazon USA MP has an offering for $17 USD - curious what the running time on the DVD may be? Thanks - Dave :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 30, 2019, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 30, 2019, 08:44:41 AM
Well, not to belabor the point - below is the description on the lower back of the box - possibly the first CD releases were ADD, then the recordings were re-done to 24-bit DDD?  Just my guess, plus I have no booklet that might explain the mixing sequences - out of interest, I would send Sony an email but would not expect an answer so a waste of time, in my mind.  Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-DTwDgZZ/0/1d3bc08e/M/VW_Previn-M.png)

A recording cannot be "redone to DDD" since the first letter specifies the technology of the original recording.

Normally when a CD is marked ADD/DDD it means some content is ADD and other content is DDD. In this case it may mean that one or more tracks is from a digital recording, or that they made a mistake.

The middle D is basically meaningless, since there is more than one editing step. If multichannel analog master tapes were mixed, edited and processed to a stereo tape for cutting and LP, and that tape was then digitized, that is AAD. I have rarely seen a recording marked AAD. If raw multichannel master tapes were digitized and subsequent mixing, editing, equalization, etc were done digitially to produce a CD master, then that is ADD. But what if an analog system is used to mix a multichannel recording to stereo, then the stereo tape is edited and equalized digitally. Is that AAD or ADD? I assume they label that ADD, because even when they brag about "going back to the original session tapes" invariably the previous release (which didn't go back to the session tapes) was labeled ADD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 30, 2019, 10:12:34 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 30, 2019, 08:47:06 AM
Guys - documentary piques my interest - the Amazon USA MP has an offering for $17 USD - curious what the running time on the DVD may be? Thanks - Dave :)

Just checked - 'approx. 90 minutes'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on June 09, 2019, 03:19:31 AM
Vaughan Williams gets a lot of traction and positive press around here. A friend of mine always referred to Yawn Williams. I have heretofore been indifferent to the music of Vaughan Williams. I am open to persuasion and prepared to give the music another chance so let me see if I can dispel both of these sentiments with a survey of his music which is in my admittedly very modest collection:

Symphonies 1-9 Boult [CD]
Symphonies 1-9 Previn [LP]
A Sea Symphony Boult [LP + CD]
A Sea Symphony Previn [LP + CD]
A Sea Symphony Haitink [CD]
A Sea Symphony Hickox [CD]
A London Symphony Barbirolli [LP]
Sinfonia Antartica Boult [LP X 2 - Previn & Boult]
Symphony No. 8 Vaughan Williams [CD]
Symphony No. 8 Barbirolli [10" vinyl]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 09, 2019, 03:32:34 AM
Quote from: aligreto on June 09, 2019, 03:19:31 AM
Vaughan Williams gets a lot of traction and positive press around here. A friend of mine always referred to Yawn Williams. I have heretofore been indifferent to the music of Vaughan Williams. I am open to persuasion and prepared to give the music another chance so let me see if I can dispel both of these sentiments with a survey of his music which is in my admittedly very modest collection:

Symphonies 1-9 Boult [CD]
Symphonies 1-9 Previn [LP]
A Sea Symphony Boult [LP + CD]
A Sea Symphony Previn [LP + CD]
A Sea Symphony Haitink [CD]
A Sea Symphony Hickox [CD]
A London Symphony Barbirolli [LP]
Sinfonia Antartica Boult [LP X 2 - Previn & Boult]
Symphony No. 8 Vaughan Williams [CD]
Symphony No. 8 Barbirolli [10" vinyl]
My recommendations:
symphonies 4-6 and 'Job - a Masque for Dancing'. See if they change your mind. He is not everyone's cup of tea.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on June 09, 2019, 04:50:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 09, 2019, 03:32:34 AM
My recommendations:
symphonies 4-6 and 'Job - a Masque for Dancing'. See if they change your mind. He is not everyone's cup of tea.

Thank you for the recommendations Jeffrey. I do have a version of 'Job - a Masque for Dancing' by Boult in my collection which I obviously did not list above. I will of course give that another listen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 09, 2019, 07:26:19 AM
Personally I would happily trade 'Job' for symphonies 4 and possibly 9 as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 09, 2019, 08:13:20 AM
I think RVW's Symphony No.3 is his "marmite" work (does that translate to all readers.......? - you'll love it or hate it!)  For me his most individual/characteristic work of genius - remarkable in its sound world and aesthetic.  BUT - if English Pastoralism brings you out in hives.... AVOID!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on June 09, 2019, 08:34:35 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 09, 2019, 07:26:19 AM
Personally I would happily trade 'Job' for symphonies 4 and possibly 9 as well.

Interestingly I have absolutely no recollection whatsoever of "Job" but I will definitely revisit the work at some stage.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on June 09, 2019, 08:37:23 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 09, 2019, 08:13:20 AM
I think RVW's Symphony No.3 is his "marmite" work (does that translate to all readers.......? - you'll love it or hate it!)  For me his most individual/characteristic work of genius - remarkable in its sound world and aesthetic.  BUT - if English Pastoralism brings you out in hives.... AVOID!

Yes, it can and often does but hopefully I will not let that prejudice me in any way this time around.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 09, 2019, 08:44:19 AM
Symphony 8 is getting quite a lot of approval on the forum, so that is worth a listen as well. Hope you find something you like Fergus.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on June 09, 2019, 12:29:32 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 09, 2019, 08:44:19 AM
Symphony 8 is getting quite a lot of approval on the forum, so that is worth a listen as well. Hope you find something you like Fergus.
:)

Thank you again Jeffrey. I have no doubt that I will for reasons that I will document later. What I will endeavour to do with this particular listening project is to get a better understanding and appreciation of the Symphonies as a body of work. I believe that my approach in the past was not continuous or focused enough to achieve this. We will see.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 10, 2019, 12:52:34 AM
Quote from: aligreto on June 09, 2019, 08:37:23 AM
Yes, it can and often does but hopefully I will not let that prejudice me in any way this time around.

I'm with Jeffrey. It is odd-ball but in a good way. Go for the 8th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 10, 2019, 07:18:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 09, 2019, 08:44:19 AM
Symphony 8 is getting quite a lot of approval on the forum, so that is worth a listen as well. Hope you find something you like Fergus.

I think that is because this is GMG, and GMG-ers in general seem to have a marked preference for the road less travelled.

(Witness for example a Composer forum where VW runs to 207 pages, and Havergal Brian to 394, whilst Beethoven has just 91 pages, Bach 32 and Wagner 2.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 10, 2019, 11:57:49 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 10, 2019, 07:18:51 AM
I think that is because this is GMG, and GMG-ers in general seem to have a marked preference for the road less travelled.

(Witness for example a Composer forum where VW runs to 207 pages, and Havergal Brian to 394, whilst Beethoven has just 91 pages, Bach 32 and Wagner 2.)

Yes, but Haydn runs to about ten million pages (598 actually) 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on June 10, 2019, 12:10:15 PM
I do find it remarkable that people find something new to say about Vaughan Williams every day, sometimes multiple times per day.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 10, 2019, 12:18:47 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on June 10, 2019, 12:10:15 PM
I do find it remarkable that people find something new to say about Vaughan Williams every day, sometimes multiple times per day.  :laugh:
Oh, I'm quite good at that!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 10, 2019, 01:22:34 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on June 10, 2019, 12:10:15 PM
I do find it remarkable that people find something new to say about Vaughan Williams every day, sometimes multiple times per day.  :laugh:

And the most amazing thing is we never repeat ourselves. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 10, 2019, 11:50:14 PM
This is just a conspiracy to get the page count up to 208 ...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 11, 2019, 12:09:11 AM
On a more serious note, Baron raises a valid point. I think most of us flit from one composer to another. I know I am guilty of "flavour of the month". Some, and it is only a few are always there in the background, they are like a warm blanket, familiar. For me it is RVW, Elgar and Sibelius who I never tire of. There is also the point that I don't pipe up on other composers as quite frankly I am aware I have nothing to say of interest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 11, 2019, 01:54:48 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 11, 2019, 12:09:11 AM
On a more serious note, Baron raises a valid point. I think most of us flit from one composer to another. I know I am guilty of "flavour of the month". Some, and it is only a few are always there in the background, they are like a warm blanket, familiar. For me it is RVW, Elgar and Sibelius who I never tire of. There is also the point that I don't pipe up on other composers as quite frankly I am aware I have nothing to say of interest.

Oh, that has never stopped me from expressing my views. 8)

I think that I'm quite loyal to my favourite composers, VW, Miaskovsky, Bax, Copland, Honegger, Sibelius, Tubin, Braga Santos, Lilburn, Bruckner. Most of them I've appreciated since my late teenage years, although I wouldn't have been aware of Tubin and Braga Santos in those days. However, it's always great to discover new composers whose music appeals.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 11, 2019, 07:23:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 11, 2019, 01:54:48 AM
Oh, that has never stopped me from expressing my views. 8)

I think that I'm quite loyal to my favourite composers, VW, Miaskovsky, Bax, Copland, Honegger, Sibelius, Tubin, Braga Santos, Lilburn, Bruckner. Most of them I've appreciated since my late teenage years, although I wouldn't have been aware of Tubin and Braga Santos in those days. However, it's always great to discover new composers whose music appeals.

But your views are always worth reading!

Two names in your list I have not heard of. Miaskovsky I like a lot and the same goes for Copland and Honegger. For Tubin I need to try harder. This is confession time, but to be honest I struggle with Bax. Sometimes I think I am there and then it slips away - again. Bruckner is a closed book.

I agree it is brilliant to find new composers and music and it is a never ending quest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 11, 2019, 07:37:46 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 11, 2019, 07:23:40 AM
But your views are always worth reading!

Two names in your list I have not heard of. Miaskovsky I like a lot and the same goes for Copland and Honegger. For Tubin I need to try harder. This is confession time, but to be honest I struggle with Bax. Sometimes I think I am there and then it slips away - again. Bruckner is a closed book.

I agree it is brilliant to find new composers and music and it is a never ending quest.

Thank you!

I've been listening to different recordings of Bax's 7th today, with much pleasure. With Tubin I'd try symphonies 2 and 4.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on June 11, 2019, 07:54:33 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 11, 2019, 12:09:11 AM
On a more serious note, Baron raises a valid point. I think most of us flit from one composer to another. I know I am guilty of "flavour of the month". Some, and it is only a few are always there in the background, they are like a warm blanket, familiar. For me it is RVW, Elgar and Sibelius who I never tire of. There is also the point that I don't pipe up on other composers as quite frankly I am aware I have nothing to say of interest.

I didn't mean any implicit criticism, by the way, and I do enjoy Vaughan Williams' symphonies, well except for #1 and #7. I guess I don't have time to immerse myself in any one composer's music to the point of having something to say every day. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on June 11, 2019, 07:57:28 PM
Quote from: aligreto on June 09, 2019, 03:19:31 AM
Vaughan Williams gets a lot of traction and positive press around here. A friend of mine always referred to Yawn Williams. I have heretofore been indifferent to the music of Vaughan Williams. I am open to persuasion and prepared to give the music another chance so let me see if I can dispel both of these sentiments with a survey of his music which is in my admittedly very modest collection:

Symphonies 1-9 Boult [CD]
Symphonies 1-9 Previn [LP]
A Sea Symphony Boult [LP + CD]
A Sea Symphony Previn [LP + CD]
A Sea Symphony Haitink [CD]
A Sea Symphony Hickox [CD]
A London Symphony Barbirolli [LP]
Sinfonia Antartica Boult [LP X 2 - Previn & Boult]
Symphony No. 8 Vaughan Williams [CD]
Symphony No. 8 Barbirolli [10" vinyl]

Personally, I think A London Symphony is one of VW's most accessible works (along with the 5th Symphony), though I know others may disagree.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on June 11, 2019, 08:21:13 PM
Recently, I've happily discovered two of VW's works involving the viola - the Suite for Viola and Orchestra and Flos campi. The former represents the composer at his most lovable, humane, and melodic. It is a truly "feel good" work with some gorgeous melodies. The latter (with its evocative wordless chorus) is a more elusive work with its "crunchy", sometimes bitonal harmonies, but it really "opens up" in the final section, which is glowingly beautiful.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 11, 2019, 10:35:41 PM
I also rate A London Symphony very highly, especially in its 1920 or 1913 version. It was the composer's own favourite of at least his first eight symphonies. Yesterday I listened to the Andrew Manze recordings of Sinfonia Antartica and No.9. The narration in Sinfonia Antartica didn't bother me, in fact I quite like it and I thought that Timothy West was fine, although at the start I momentarily thought that the late Sir John Gielgud had returned to us. As performances the phrase good but 'nothing special' comes to mind. Also Manze seems to play around with the tempos at times which I don't like. I have never felt bored in Sinfonia Antartica before and thought the performance dragged. I then compared the timings with Boult's Decca recording (my favourite version) and was surprised to discover that the Manze version is shorter. It just sounded longer. Having said this I thought that the organ entry in the 'Landscape' movement was the most impressive I have heard. I was listening on a portable CD player so must listen again on the main Hi-Fi before making a final judgment. No.9 was better I thought but still not nearly as gripping as performances by Boult (both version), Slatkin, Thomson or the very fine Stokowski recording on Cala.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 12, 2019, 12:22:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 11, 2019, 07:37:46 AM
Thank you!

I've been listening to different recordings of Bax's 7th today, with much pleasure. With Tubin I'd try symphonies 2 and 4.

Checking, I have recordings of Tubin's 2 and 7 on my shelves. The 2nd is a 1987 Melodiya recording with The Estonian State SO conducted by Peeter Lilje. Very much doubt this version would be a contender for a "Building a Library" Tubin 2, but I will give it a spin after your heads up.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 12, 2019, 12:30:11 AM
Quote from: kyjo on June 11, 2019, 07:57:28 PM
Personally, I think A London Symphony is one of VW's most accessible works (along with the 5th Symphony), though I know others may disagree.

I wouldn't. I listened to Barbirolli with his Hallé last night. Sir John is perfection in the atmospheric opening.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 12, 2019, 12:47:25 AM
I also agree that the London and the 5th (and probably then the 6th) are the best way in to VW's symphonies.  But before those, maybe don't forget Tallis, Lark and the Tuba Concerto.

Quote from: vandermolen on June 11, 2019, 10:35:41 PM
As performances the phrase good but 'nothing special' comes to mind.

I think in the 7th it's quite difficult to find points of difference that aren't simply down to the production or recording.  The impact of the organ for example is purely a production decision.  The music itself is just wodges of textured sound and not very dynamic within itself, I don't imagine it's very taxing to conduct or perform - and any slight differences in tempo for example don't seem to mean much as they are likely to be consistent for the entire movement.  On that basis I like the Manze because the recording - although it's a strange balance to my ears, somewhat recessed, almost hollow - is very revealing of some inner details that simply go unheard in most other versions I've listened to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 12, 2019, 09:45:48 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 12, 2019, 12:47:25 AM
I also agree that the London and the 5th (and probably then the 6th) are the best way in to VW's symphonies.  But before those, maybe don't forget Tallis, Lark and the Tuba Concerto.

I think in the 7th it's quite difficult to find points of difference that aren't simply down to the production or recording.  The impact of the organ for example is purely a production decision.  The music itself is just wodges of textured sound and not very dynamic within itself, I don't imagine it's very taxing to conduct or perform - and any slight differences in tempo for example don't seem to mean much as they are likely to be consistent for the entire movement.  On that basis I like the Manze because the recording - although it's a strange balance to my ears, somewhat recessed, almost hollow - is very revealing of some inner details that simply go unheard in most other versions I've listened to.
Thanks. I need to listen to it on better equipment.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 13, 2019, 01:17:20 AM
I formed that opinion before reading this review on Presto Classical
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/articles/2664--recording-of-the-week-the-final-instalment-of-andrew-manzes-vaughan-williams-cycle-with-the (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/articles/2664--recording-of-the-week-the-final-instalment-of-andrew-manzes-vaughan-williams-cycle-with-the)
where the reviewer David Smith identifies some of the same things but attributes points of balance to decisions made by the conductor rather than by the producer or sound engineer.
Quote... at several points in the work the bass register of the piano (which I hadn't previously realised was even called for in this work!) cuts through the texture. ... Manze is consistently seeking to enliven the sonic texture by highlighting the spikier elements of the scoring.
That piano is what struck me straight away.  I don't really agree with his 2nd point above, but I do generally agree with (without altogether liking it):
Quote... it tips the balance towards a warmer, more human sound-world, where previous interpretations have tended to play up the ethereal, otherworldy aspect of the polar setting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 15, 2019, 02:55:57 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 15, 2019, 02:45:22 AM
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/880040419020.jpg?1555507259)

After listening a couple of times to Manze's Ninth (1957), I dare conclude that it's by now my first choice, In a comparison of 16 recordings of this symphony that I'm aware of, it's clear that Manze opts for - by far - the slowest tempi, e.g. the finale alone lasting no less than 15 minutes. Of the other recordings, only Previn and Rozhdestvensky are sometimes taking a smilar long breath, but this recording surpasses them all.

I find the result very convincing, but also confusing: why didn't Manze make comparable choices with the Sixth (1947), its closest ally? Why are all of his other recordings - of RVW's symphonies I mean - rather middle of the road? Whence this sudden turn? I hope to read an explanation later, but in the meantime we better enjoy this most epic of all of Vaughan Williams' symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 04:17:30 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 15, 2019, 02:55:57 AM


Interesting, will listen on my Hi-Fi system later.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on June 15, 2019, 08:07:56 AM
A Sea Symphony:

In relation to listening and comprehension, A Sea Symphony had a troubled genesis for me. There was very little in this work that was of any interest to me when I first heard it. I cannot exactly remember my first version [Boult, I believe] but I do remember having to force myself to finish listening to the entire work. This style was simply not to my taste at the time. However, after repeated listening and critical evaluation and comparison that situation did change over time and has revealed an appreciation that I did not believe was possible after my first hearing. My journey with this particular work has been a long but progressively positive one.


Boult:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ugQAAOSwDC1Z4zjV/s-l1600.jpg)


The opening movement is vibrant and energetic and rolls out in undulating waves. Dark and pensive but not brooding, the second movement is rich in tone and orchestral colour. The vitality, energy and exuberance of the opening movement returns in the third movement. The final movement is elegant and noble with a refined restraint leading to a fine conclusion.

This is a monumental work which is given a contemplative, atmospheric and intense performance and interpretation here which never overflows into melodrama.



Haitink:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51iR2NSvBAL.jpg)


The Haitink version is a much more bright and modern one when compared with that of Boult and as a result the orchestra has a much greater presence and more impact than that in the Boult version. However, to be fair, one has to take into consideration the improved recording technology. I also thought that Haitink's vocalists [especially the soprano] were much more controlled and thereby more rewarding to my ear. This is a powerful and uncompromising first section with committed performances from all concerned. The second section is atmospheric, suitably contemplative and is also a powerful and intense performance. The final section is emotional and has some wonderful brass playing in the opening movement and the two solo vocalists perform admirably throughout as does the chorus. This ultimately transpired to be a powerful and compelling performance and interpretation for me.



Upon repeated listening the differences between the Boult and the Haitink versions turned out to be more subtle than substantial and I fear that initially I did a considerable injustice to both the work itself and to Boult's interpretation. I have now, over time, revised my attitude on both counts. I still prefer the Haitink version but the Boult version was not nearly as inferior as I had originally felt and the fault lay entirely with me.




Hickox:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8LQAAOSwWMhaU6to/s-l640.jpg)


I find this to be a somewhat "lighter" textured version than others that I have listened to. However, it is not a lightweight performance and there is still plenty of tension and drama in there and it evolves into a terrifically sensitive and powerful performance. I like the two solo vocalists here. The performance of the choir is an essential element and contributor to the success of this presentation. This was a difficult work for me to understand and comprehend for quite some time. This Hickox version played a big part in solving that problem for me with its lighter textures and its resulting cleaner lines which allowed for greater listening space for me and ultimately to greater comprehension on my part.



Previn:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/50IAAOSwEX5cAYiA/s-l1600.jpg)


The first movement is an assertive and vigorous presentation. One can feel the wind whipping up into a squall in places. There is great excitement here. The second movement is contemplative and atmospheric with an intensity that gradually builds up very well. I find this interpretation to be somewhat on the dark side. The third movement is another whirlwind of excitement with a very fine performance from the choir in particular. The final movement is initially a hushed, meditative and pensive performance which gradually builds up to a very fine, sensitive and engaging conclusion. 
The choral singing and the performance of the brass section captured my attention throughout. Previn has great control of the music but the performance is never confined or restricted in any way.



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 08:26:23 AM
Quote from: aligreto on June 15, 2019, 08:07:56 AM
A Sea Symphony:

In relation to listening and comprehension, A Sea Symphony had a troubled genesis for me. There was very little in this work that was of any interest to me when I first heard it. I cannot exactly remember my first version [Boult, I believe] but I do remember having to force myself to finish listening to the entire work. This style was simply not to my taste at the time. However, after repeated listening and critical evaluation and comparison that situation did change over time and has revealed an appreciation that I did not believe was possible after my first hearing. My journey with this particular work has been a long but progressively positive one.


Boult:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ugQAAOSwDC1Z4zjV/s-l1600.jpg)


The opening movement is vibrant and energetic and rolls out in undulating waves. Dark and pensive but not brooding, the second movement is rich in tone and orchestral colour. The vitality, energy and exuberance of the opening movement returns in the third movement. The final movement is elegant and noble with a refined restraint leading to a fine conclusion.

This is a monumental work which is given a contemplative, atmospheric and intense performance and interpretation here which never overflows into melodrama.



Haitink:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51iR2NSvBAL.jpg)


The Haitink version is a much more bright and modern one when compared with that of Boult and as a result the orchestra has a much greater presence and more impact than that in the Boult version. However, to be fair, one has to take into consideration the improved recording technology. I also thought that Haitink's vocalists [especially the soprano] were much more controlled and thereby more rewarding to my ear. This is a powerful and uncompromising first section with committed performances from all concerned. The second section is atmospheric, suitably contemplative and is also a powerful and intense performance. The final section is emotional and has some wonderful brass playing in the opening movement and the two solo vocalists perform admirably throughout as does the chorus. This ultimately transpired to be a powerful and compelling performance and interpretation for me.



Upon repeated listening the differences between the Boult and the Haitink versions turned out to be more subtle than substantial and I fear that initially I did a considerable injustice to both the work itself and to Boult's interpretation. I have now, over time, revised my attitude on both counts. I still prefer the Haitink version but the Boult version was not nearly as inferior as I had originally felt and the fault lay entirely with me.




Hickox:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8LQAAOSwWMhaU6to/s-l640.jpg)


I find this to be a somewhat "lighter" textured version than others that I have listened to. However, it is not a lightweight performance and there is still plenty of tension and drama in there and it evolves into a terrifically sensitive and powerful performance. I like the two solo vocalists here. The performance of the choir is an essential element and contributor to the success of this presentation. This was a difficult work for me to understand and comprehend for quite some time. This Hickox version played a big part in solving that problem for me with its lighter textures and its resulting cleaner lines which allowed for greater listening space for me and ultimately to greater comprehension on my part.



Previn:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/50IAAOSwEX5cAYiA/s-l1600.jpg)


The first movement is an assertive and vigorous presentation. One can feel the wind whipping up into a squall in places. There is great excitement here. The second movement is contemplative and atmospheric with an intensity that gradually builds up very well. I find this interpretation to be somewhat on the dark side. The third movement is another whirlwind of excitement with a very fine performance from the choir in particular. The final movement is initially a hushed, meditative and pensive performance which gradually builds up to a very fine, sensitive and engaging conclusion. 
The choral singing and the performance of the brass section captured my attention throughout. Previn has great control of the music but the performance is never confined or restricted in any way.
Very interesting comparative analysis Fergus! Thank you for that. A Sea Symphony was a VW blind-spot for me for decades. I bought the Boult LP set when I was about 17 and A Sea Symphony was the one LP (or LPs) that I never played, except once out of a sense of duty. It was only when I heard the Haitink performance, in the past decade I think, that the work came alive for me. It is still my favourite performance. It is also possibly my favourite in the Handley, Liverpool PO set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on June 15, 2019, 08:45:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 08:26:23 AM
Very interesting comparative analysis Fergus! Thank you for that. A Sea Symphony was a VW blind-spot for me for decades. I bought the Boult LP set when I was about 17 and A Sea Symphony was the one LP (or LPs) that I never played, except once out of a sense of duty.mit was only when I heard the Haitink performance, in the past decade I think, that the work came alive for me. It is still my favourite performance. It is also possibly my favourite in the Handley, Liverpool PO set.

Thank you Jeffrey. It is always interesting to see how one particular interpretation or vision of a work can resolve "issues" for a listener.
I obviously do not know the Handley version but I will certainly add it to my recommendations list.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on June 15, 2019, 12:42:08 PM
Excellent survey, Aligreto!

I never tire of listening to the Sea Symphony. Walt Whitman's poetry has incredible expressive power. O vast rondure swimming in space, O my brave soul! O farther, farther sail! give me goosebumps every time. VW had the genius to let the text take wing patiently, never rushing it off the page. If it had been called a choral cantata (Hodie, Sancta Civitas come to mind) it might have had less unjustified criticism leveled against it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 15, 2019, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: aligreto on June 15, 2019, 08:07:56 AM
A Sea Symphony:

In relation to listening and comprehension, A Sea Symphony had a troubled genesis for me............

Haitink:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51iR2NSvBAL.jpg)  (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/50IAAOSwEX5cAYiA/s-l1600.jpg)

The Haitink version is a much more bright and modern one when compared with that of Boult and as a result the orchestra has a much greater presence and more impact than that in the Boult version. However, to be fair, one has to take into consideration the improved recording technology. I also thought that Haitink's vocalists [especially the soprano] were much more controlled and thereby more rewarding to my ear. This is a powerful and uncompromising first section with committed performances from all concerned. The second section is atmospheric, suitably contemplative and is also a powerful and intense performance. The final section is emotional and has some wonderful brass playing in the opening movement and the two solo vocalists perform admirably throughout as does the chorus. This ultimately transpired to be a powerful and compelling performance and interpretation for me..........

Previn:

The first movement is an assertive and vigorous presentation. One can feel the wind whipping up into a squall in places. There is great excitement here. The second movement is contemplative and atmospheric with an intensity that gradually builds up very well. I find this interpretation to be somewhat on the dark side. The third movement is another whirlwind of excitement with a very fine performance from the choir in particular. The final movement is initially a hushed, meditative and pensive performance which gradually builds up to a very fine, sensitive and engaging conclusion. 
The choral singing and the performance of the brass section captured my attention throughout. Previn has great control of the music but the performance is never confined or restricted in any way.

Thanks for the comments - above are the two sets that I own currently, i.e. Haitink & Previn - enjoy both but have not made any comparisons - have been re-listening to the Haitink CD box the last few days.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 10:41:23 PM
Quote from: aligreto on June 15, 2019, 08:45:36 AM
Thank you Jeffrey. It is always interesting to see how one particular interpretation or vision of a work can resolve "issues" for a listener.
I obviously do not know the Handley version but I will certainly add it to my recommendations list.

I think that the Handley set is fine but none of the recordings would be a first choice for me. I must listen to Handley's A Sea Symphony again as I think that hearing it (on LP) made me appreciate the work more, although it was the Haitink which was a complete revelation to me. Now I appreciate the work I enjoy the other recordings of it more than I did before. Most recently the Previn version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on June 16, 2019, 12:55:28 AM
Quote from: André on June 15, 2019, 12:42:08 PM
Excellent survey, Aligreto!

I never tire of listening to the Sea Symphony. Walt Whitman's poetry has incredible expressive power. O vast rondure swimming in space, O my brave soul! O farther, farther sail! give me goosebumps every time. VW had the genius to let the text take wing patiently, never rushing it off the page. If it had been called a choral cantata (Hodie, Sancta Civitas come to mind) it might have had less unjustified criticism leveled against it.

Thank you André. That humble survey and comparison has been a long time coming for me but it is only now that I had the confidence to tackle it as I have now made the transition from disliking the work to really liking it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on June 16, 2019, 12:57:22 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 15, 2019, 01:42:46 PM
Thanks for the comments - above are the two sets that I own currently, i.e. Haitink & Previn - enjoy both but have not made any comparisons - have been re-listening to the Haitink CD box the last few days.  Dave :)

Cheers Dave. Both Haitink & Previn are very strong and complimentary versions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on June 16, 2019, 01:02:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 10:41:23 PM
I think that the Handley set is fine but none of the recordings would be a first choice for me. I must listen to Handley's A Sea Symphony again as I think that hearing it (on LP) made me appreciate the work more, although it was the Haitink which was a complete revelation to me. Now I appreciate the work I enjoy the other recordings of it more than I did before. Most recently the Previn version.

I would not be too concerned that the Handley would not be a first choice here. I like Handley so I would like to hear what he does with the work. Thank you again for the recommendation.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 16, 2019, 01:50:27 AM
Quote from: aligreto on June 16, 2019, 01:02:37 AM
I would not be too concerned that the Handley would not be a first choice here. I like Handley so I would like to hear what he does with the work. Thank you again for the recommendation.
Always a pleasure!
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 16, 2019, 03:09:54 AM
I wanted to refer back to an earlier exchange about the Sea Symphony before joining in here - and found myself wading backwards through this pleasant topic until I remembered that the earlier discussion had prompted me to acquire the Slatkin recording - a quick check of the datestamps on my music server led me straight back to April 2018 and page 161 of this thread.

I liked this music when I first heard it, on the Boult/EMI release, I got the vinyl from a postal lending library that I was subscribed to in my late teens.  It's plumb in the middle of the English choral tradition, and that's always going to have an appeal for an English music-lover of a certain age.  The problem for me was never the music, but the inconvenience of music spanning 3 sides of LP (I was much less inclined to dip into bleeding chunks in those days - that sort of thing just wasn't done - compared with now).  The expense, the bulk (2 LPs boxed) and the faff, all led to me not wanting to buy it.
The coming of CD - and then shortly after, of Haitink - was a game-changer.  This is a piece of music that seems ideally suited to the CD format.

The main problem area for me in this music is always the soprano, and a recording pretty much stands or falls for me by how well (or, quite often, badly) 'Flaunt out, O sea' goes.  I feel bad even writing this - it's a bit like blaming the goalkeeper for a one-time slip when a football team loses.  Of the four versions I had (now 5) I wrote, 14 months ago:

Quote from: aukhawk on April 17, 2018, 04:59:00 AM
Having just listened to the first movement again (and sampled the other three versions I have) I very regretfully have to DQ Slatkin because of his soprano.  For me, she falls badly at her first big hurdle "Flaunt out O sea", with wild vibrato and nasty glottal noises.  ...
Listening to the others this is equally a problem (actually much worse) in the Elder recording.  (Live performance, I think?)

For Spano, Christine Goerke belts it out just fine and is probably helped by the quicker tempo, for Haitink, Felicity Lott sounds somewhat restrained compared with the others (she is also much lower in the mix - more distant, a better balance really) and aquits herself well.

To which I can now add that for Boult/EMI, Sheila Armstrong is quite strong - almost as good as Felicity Lott and with a much more assertive presentation (both the mix and the singing I think, which verges on glottal at one point, but doesn't quite fall into the pit).  Probably the best soprano of the 5 recordings I have.

So Slatkin and Elder fall at this hurdle - sadly because they are both very good otherwise.  Spano is not everyone's cup of tea, but I really like this recording - it is the complete exception to my 'slower is better' general rule, being much quicker than the others in 3 of the 4 movements - and I love the American twang in the choir.  But if I exclude Spano - Haitink (for the recording) is still my go-to.
After reading the comments in the previous few messages I feel I'd like to seek out the Previn now.

One problem is that the Sea Symphony (much like Sinfonia Antartica really - or indeed St Matthew Passion) is sort of 'once in a year' music for me - there is so much other good music out there which has equal claim to my time, and most of it can be more easily assimilated in smaller chunks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 16, 2019, 03:32:38 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 16, 2019, 03:09:54 AM
I wanted to refer back to an earlier exchange about the Sea Symphony before joining in here - and found myself wading backwards through this pleasant topic until I remembered that the earlier discussion had prompted me to acquire the Slatkin recording - a quick check of the datestamps on my music server led me straight back to April 2018 and page 161 of this thread.

I liked this music when I first heard it, on the Boult/EMI release, I got the vinyl from a postal lending library that I was subscribed to in my late teens.  It's plumb in the middle of the English choral tradition, and that's always going to have an appeal for an English music-lover of a certain age.  The problem for me was never the music, but the inconvenience of music spanning 3 sides of LP (I was much less inclined to dip into bleeding chunks in those days - that sort of thing just wasn't done - compared with now).  The expense, the bulk (2 LPs boxed) and the faff, all led to me not wanting to buy it.
The coming of CD - and then shortly after, of Haitink - was a game-changer.  This is a piece of music that seems ideally suited to the CD format.

The main problem area for me in this music is always the soprano, and a recording pretty much stands or falls for me by how well (or, quite often, badly) 'Flaunt out, O sea' goes.  I feel bad even writing this - it's a bit like blaming the goalkeeper for a one-time slip when a football team loses.  Of the four versions I had (now 5) I wrote, 14 months ago:

To which I can now add that for Boult/EMI, Sheila Armstrong is quite strong - almost as good as Felicity Lott and with a much more assertive presentation (both the mix and the singing I think, which verges on glottal at one point, but doesn't quite fall into the pit).  Probably the best soprano of the 5 recordings I have.

So Slatkin and Elder fall at this hurdle - sadly because they are both very good otherwise.  Spano is not everyone's cup of tea, but I really like this recording - it is the complete exception to my 'slower is better' general rule, being much quicker than the others in 3 of the 4 movements - and I love the American twang in the choir.  But if I exclude Spano - Haitink (for the recording) is still my go-to.
After reading the comments in the previous few messages I feel I'd like to seek out the Previn now.

One problem is that the Sea Symphony (much like Sinfonia Antartica really - or indeed St Matthew Passion) is sort of 'once in a year' music for me - there is so much other good music out there which has equal claim to my time, and most of it can be more easily assimilated in smaller chunks.
Another very informative comparative analysis. Thanks. I don't know the Spano (or I've forgotten it). I rather like his other VW recordings
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on June 16, 2019, 04:47:20 AM
Indeed, Aukhawk probes an important point. Thanks for this informative post!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on June 16, 2019, 08:47:31 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 16, 2019, 03:09:54 AM
I wanted to refer back to an earlier exchange about the Sea Symphony before joining in here - and found myself wading backwards through this pleasant topic until I remembered that the earlier discussion had prompted me to acquire the Slatkin recording - a quick check of the datestamps on my music server led me straight back to April 2018 and page 161 of this thread.

I liked this music when I first heard it, on the Boult/EMI release, I got the vinyl from a postal lending library that I was subscribed to in my late teens.  It's plumb in the middle of the English choral tradition, and that's always going to have an appeal for an English music-lover of a certain age.  The problem for me was never the music, but the inconvenience of music spanning 3 sides of LP (I was much less inclined to dip into bleeding chunks in those days - that sort of thing just wasn't done - compared with now).  The expense, the bulk (2 LPs boxed) and the faff, all led to me not wanting to buy it.
The coming of CD - and then shortly after, of Haitink - was a game-changer.  This is a piece of music that seems ideally suited to the CD format.

The main problem area for me in this music is always the soprano, and a recording pretty much stands or falls for me by how well (or, quite often, badly) 'Flaunt out, O sea' goes.  I feel bad even writing this - it's a bit like blaming the goalkeeper for a one-time slip when a football team loses.  Of the four versions I had (now 5) I wrote, 14 months ago:

To which I can now add that for Boult/EMI, Sheila Armstrong is quite strong - almost as good as Felicity Lott and with a much more assertive presentation (both the mix and the singing I think, which verges on glottal at one point, but doesn't quite fall into the pit).  Probably the best soprano of the 5 recordings I have.

So Slatkin and Elder fall at this hurdle - sadly because they are both very good otherwise.  Spano is not everyone's cup of tea, but I really like this recording - it is the complete exception to my 'slower is better' general rule, being much quicker than the others in 3 of the 4 movements - and I love the American twang in the choir.  But if I exclude Spano - Haitink (for the recording) is still my go-to.
After reading the comments in the previous few messages I feel I'd like to seek out the Previn now.

One problem is that the Sea Symphony (much like Sinfonia Antartica really - or indeed St Matthew Passion) is sort of 'once in a year' music for me - there is so much other good music out there which has equal claim to my time, and most of it can be more easily assimilated in smaller chunks.

Great, informative post. More food for thought, contemplation and further comparison. Greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 17, 2019, 02:51:30 AM
It's unfair of me to single out the soprano really - I listened to Boult again yesterday and actually it is the baritone who gets by far the most exposure in this music and, since all singers have their idiosynchrasies perhaps it's just a 'Case' of finding the one with the fewest 'Quirks'.  I've been an admirer of Boult's music-making all my life but really, this (EMI) must be one of his very best recordings.

I assembled some timings for the Sea Symphony - these are track timings so approximate, including any white space (especially on the end of the last movement).  Actually very little variation, among the main players.
Haitink      20:48  12:04  7:57  30:20
Elder        20:22  11:08  8:29  30:24
Thomson      20:09  10:10  8:08  27:30
Handley      19:48  11:43  8:17  29:50
Boult/Decca  19:36  11:43  7:17  28:58
Brabbins     19:19  11:09  7:54  29:18
Boult/EMI    19:18  10:30  7:29  28:12
Rozhdestvensky 19:16 9:16  8.48  28:35 (inc applause??) [nb edited to add]
Slatkin      19:08  11:29  7:37  29:00
Previn       19:08  10:46  7:34  28:08
Hickox/LSO   19:06  10:55  7:54  28:23
Davis/BBC    18:59  10:25  7:53  28:16
Daniel       18:26  10:23  7:46  27:19
Hickox/PO    18:10  11:05  7:26  27:02
Manze        17:42  10:14  7:34  27:25

Spano        17:29   9:36  7:32  26:10
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 17, 2019, 03:12:46 AM
Did the same with Symphony No. 9 in E minor (1957), triggered by the newest Manze recording. In this case, some of the differences are remarkable IMHO:

1.   Sargent / RPh 1958                               08:11   07:34   05:32   10:54
2.   Stokowski / anon 1958                          10:12   08:09   05:11   12:24
3.   Boult / LPO Everest 1958                       09:20   08:09   05:37   11:44
4.   Boult / LPO 1969                                   09:17   07:50   05:40   12:08
5.   Previn / LSO 1971                                 10:10   08:36   05:58   13:49
6.   Rozhdestvensky / USSR SSO 1989          10:40   07:40   05:53   13:28
7.   Thomson / LSO 1990                             07:19   07:07   05:44   10:53
8.   Slatkin / PO 1991                                  09:21   07:55   04:52   11:43
9.   Handley / RLPO 1994                             08:46   07:27   05:26   11:19
10.   Davis / BBC SO 1995                           08:46   08:39   05:18   11:18
11.   Davis / BBC SO 2008 live Proms           08:28   07:47   05:30   12:02    
12.   Davis / Bergen 2016                            09:06   07:39   05:39   11:09
13.   Bakels / BSO 1996                               07:42   07:08   05:16   09:36
14.   Haitink / LPO 2000                               10:06   07:56   05:31   12:56
15.   Egarr / Flemish RO 2008 Youtube          08:57   06:56   05:18   11:24
16.   Manze / RLPO 2019                              10:56   08:53   05:49   15:05
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 17, 2019, 03:48:41 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 17, 2019, 03:12:46 AM
Did the same with Symphony No. 9 in E minor (1957), triggered by the newest Manze recording. In this case, some of the differences are remarkable IMHO:

1.   Sargent / RPh 1958                               08:11   07:34   05:32   10:54
2.   Stokowski / anon 1958                          10:12   08:09   05:11   12:24
3.   Boult / LPO Everest 1958                       09:20   08:09   05:37   11:44
4.   Boult / LPO 1969                                   09:17   07:50   05:40   12:08
5.   Previn / LSO 1971                                 10:10   08:36   05:58   13:49
6.   Rozhdestvensky / USSR SSO 1989          10:40   07:40   05:53   13:28
7.   Thomson / LSO 1990                             07:19   07:07   05:44   10:53
8.   Slatkin / PO 1991                                  09:21   07:55   04:52   11:43
9.   Handley / RLPO 1994                             08:46   07:27   05:26   11:19
10.   Davis / BBC SO 1995                           08:46   08:39   05:18   11:18
11.   Davis / BBC SO 2008 live Proms           08:28   07:47   05:30   12:02    
12.   Davis / Bergen 2016                            09:06   07:39   05:39   11:09
13.   Bakels / BSO 1996                               07:42   07:08   05:16   09:36
14.   Haitink / LPO 2000                               10:06   07:56   05:31   12:56
15.   Egarr / Flemish RO 2008 Youtube          08:57   06:56   05:18   11:24
16.   Manze / RLPO 2019                              10:56   08:53   05:49   15:05

'Egarr/Flemish RO'  :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 17, 2019, 03:52:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 17, 2019, 03:48:41 AM
'Egarr/Flemish RO'  :o
The Belgian premiere, even (as late as 2009). A fine performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foioL-VR2eU&t=566s
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 17, 2019, 04:24:32 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 17, 2019, 02:51:30 AMI've been an admirer of Boult's music-making all my life but really, this (EMI) must be one of his very best recordings.

I think so to. The last time I did a comparative listen to my ten Sea Symphonies, the Boult (EMI) came out on top (with runners-up Slatkin, Boult (Decca) and Haitink).

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 17, 2019, 05:08:00 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 17, 2019, 03:52:31 AM
The Belgian premiere, even (as late as 2009). A fine performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foioL-VR2eU&t=566s

How interesting! Thanks Johan. Will watch.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 17, 2019, 10:39:06 AM
I listened to the Manze Antartica and No.9 on the Hi-Fi today and now agree with Christo - both performances are much better than I originally thought. The stately tread at the start of Antartica is very well realised and I found the brooding No. 9 very moving. This is IMO by far the best of the Manze releases (I don't have 'A Sea Symphony').
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 17, 2019, 10:51:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 17, 2019, 10:39:06 AMI listened to the Manze Antartica and No.9 on the Hi-Fi today and now agree with Christo - both performances are much better than I originally thought. The stately tread at the start of Antartica is very well realised and I found the brooding No. 9 very moving. This is IMO by far the best of the Manze releases (I don't have 'A Sea Symphony').
Didn't hear the Antartica yet - and still pondering the Ninth. What I really admire in Manze's interpretation of the latter, is the 'contemplative, brooding' finale - the most convincing reading that I know and a moving experience.

Thus far, I always preferred Thomson because of his dramatically convincing performance of the two middle movements - especially the 'brutal force' of the reprisal (twice) of the march theme in the Andante sostenuto slow movement, slowly developing in a progessive contrast with the nostalgic 'The Solent' theme. Now that I play them again, I don't think Manze and Previn are offering less drama here (as do many of the other recordings, Haitink even a failure IMHO), but both have the advantage of a more spaced first and final movement. In Manze's case, the finale is something special indeed (reminiscent of the finale of Malcolm Arnold's Ninth, or Shosta 15, Nielsen 6 or Honegger 5).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 17, 2019, 10:56:27 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 17, 2019, 10:51:31 AM
Didn't hear the Antartica yet - and still pondering the Ninth. What I really admire in Manze's interpretation of the latter, is the 'contemplative, brooding' finale - the most convincing reading that I know and a moving experience.

Thus far, I always preferred Thomson because of his dramatically convincing performance of the two middle movements - especially the 'brutal force' of the reprisal (twice) of the march theme in the Andante sostenuto slow movement, slowly developing in a progessive contrast with the nostalgic 'The Solent' theme. Now that I play them again, I don't think Manze and Previn are offering less drama here (as do many of the other recordings, Haitink even a failure IMHO), but both have the advantage of a more spaced first and final movement. In Manze's case, the finale is something special indeed (reminiscent of the finale of Malcolm Arnold's Ninth, or Shosta 15, Nielsen 6 or Honegger 5).
Interesting. The finale is possibly my favourite, certainly most moving, VW symphony movement - those looming chords and harps at the end - a view through the 'magic casements' IMO. I certainly agree with the Honegger Symphony 5 analogy.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on June 17, 2019, 08:38:27 PM
An exchange I witnessed between two of my colleagues at a summer music festival:

Person 1 (in a disparaging tone): "For this one concert we played random English music, like Vaughan Williams."
Person 2 (in a disgusted tone): "Oh God!"

??? ::)

I'll never understand, for the life of me, why English music is so often viewed so exclusively and negatively here in the States. I've often heard it mentioned that English music is an "acquired taste". Well, to me, all music is an "acquired taste". Each of us are wired differently and can come to prefer different music through exploration of a wide variety of repertoire (something that most of my colleagues seem to have no interest in doing). Mainstream musical attitudes would deem it impossible for someone to prefer Vaughan Williams or Bax to Beethoven or Brahms, which is utter nonsense. Most of my musical colleagues would deem me insane if I stated that Beethoven or Brahms were "acquired tastes" (which I firmly believe)! This is why I have trouble making friends! ::) :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: arpeggio on June 17, 2019, 09:13:36 PM
Quote from: kyjo on June 17, 2019, 08:38:27 PM
An exchange I witnessed between two of my colleagues at a summer music festival:

Person 1 (in a disparaging tone): "For this one concert we played random English music, like Vaughan Williams."
Person 2 (in a disgusted tone): "Oh God!"

??? ::)

I'll never understand, for the life of me, why English music is so often viewed so exclusively and negatively here in the States. I've often heard it mentioned that English music is an "acquired taste". Well, to me, all music is an "acquired taste". Each of us are wired differently and can come to prefer different music through exploration of a wide variety of repertoire (something that most of my colleagues seem to have no interest in doing). Mainstream musical attitudes would deem it impossible for someone to prefer Vaughan Williams or Bax to Beethoven or Brahms, which is utter nonsense. Most of my musical colleagues would deem me insane if I stated that Beethoven or Brahms were "acquired tastes" (which I firmly believe)! This is why I have trouble making friends! ::) :D

90% of the people that I know that follow classical music are the musicians I play with and the audiences that I preform for.  Within this community English music in general and Vaughn Williams in particular is highly regarded.  One of my wife's favorite composer is Vaughn Williams.  Whenever there is a performance of the Sea Symphony within a hundred miles of where we live we have to go hear it.  Maybe you need to get new friends.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 18, 2019, 12:31:23 AM
Quote from: kyjo on June 17, 2019, 08:38:27 PMThis is why I have trouble making friends! ::) :D
Not here!  :D
Quote from: kyjo on June 17, 2019, 08:38:27 PMI'll never understand, for the life of me, why English music is so often viewed so exclusively and negatively here in the States.
I'ld say it's even worse here. I recently recalled the story of how I bought the Chandos CD with Thomson / RVW 6 in a prominent Amsterdam music store back in 1989 - and was treated with open disapproval by the owner. She was a well-known voice on classical radio at the time, but she could not hide her contempt for what she called "English music". Not coincidentally I never heard any RVW in the Amsterdam Concertgebouw (but have to confess I somehow missed Norrington's performance of the Pastoral in 2003) and was forced to escape to Rotterdam - one of the last things in life you want to do - to hear at least a couple of symphonies).  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 18, 2019, 12:44:50 AM
I think that Britain still suffers from its undeserved reputation as 'The Land without Music'. Maybe that was true in the 19th Century where there was a lack, perhaps, of 'Great' British composers but certainly not after Elgar. I guess that between Purcell and Elgar there are few great British composers, much as I like some works by Parry and a few by Stanford, and, of course Handel was German. I'm happy to be proved wrong in this.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 18, 2019, 02:05:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 18, 2019, 12:44:50 AMof course Handel was German. I'm happy to be proved wrong in this.
No, he was. He was even called Händel.  ;D

Not sure if there were 'great' German composers between Bach and Hindemith either; although I happen to like a chap called Beethoven, and even some Mendelssohn.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 18, 2019, 02:09:13 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 18, 2019, 02:05:01 AM
No, he was. He was even called Händel.  ;D
Hahaha  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 18, 2019, 11:19:22 AM
Found this 1987 radio broadcast of conductor John Hopkins with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra (NOT the Teldec recording with Andrew Davis and the BBC SO, as suggested).  Interestingly, they take the Finale - Andante tranquillo even SLOWER than the extremely slow Manze, as discussed here before. At no less than 15:26 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/v/S-ADxVhzMbI&list=UU6K8IQTxx-FVBHgjSIvZO1A&index=3
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 18, 2019, 11:35:30 AM
I have not heard the Manze No.9 but it raises an interesting point - to what degree should a conductor "obey" a composer's metronome markings?  Looking at my copy of the score RVW is very careful and detailed with specific tempi markings.  Its not a case of "how slow is andante or fast allegro"  He puts "Andante Tranquillo dotted crochet/quarter note = 60" with numerous equally specific adjustments throughout.  I can only assume that Manze is markedly 'off' those markings.  Presumably he feels his vision is closer to the essence/spirit of the music than the composer.

My feeling is that the performer probably should strive to follow instructions when they are as explicit as this - not slavishly - but surely they are giving a very strong indication of how RVW heard the piece in his own head.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on June 18, 2019, 12:50:40 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 18, 2019, 11:35:30 AM
I have not heard the Manze No.9 but it raises an interesting point - to what degree should a conductor "obey" a composer's metronome markings?  Looking at my copy of the score RVW is very careful and detailed with specific tempi markings.  Its not a case of "how slow is andante or fast allegro"  He puts "Andante Tranquillo dotted crochet/quarter note = 60" with numerous equally specific adjustments throughout.  I can only assume that Manze is markedly 'off' those markings.  Presumably he feels his vision is closer to the essence/spirit of the music than the composer.

My feeling is that the performer probably should strive to follow instructions when they are as explicit as this - not slavishly - but surely they are giving a very strong indication of how RVW heard the piece in his own head.....

You are right in the sense that the composer's detailed instructions MUST be authoritative, at least on paper. OTOH an interpreter's job is to convey also the 'second degree' behind the markings/indications and may be justified to try another way, a more winding one probably, thus revealing a different perspective. As long as he/she is honest and humble enough about it. Celibidache was famous for those interpretative 'insights', but totally lacked humility.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 19, 2019, 02:50:20 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 18, 2019, 11:19:22 AM
Found this 1987 radio broadcast of conductor John Hopkins with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra (NOT the Teldec recording with Andrew Davis and the BBC SO, as suggested).  Interestingly, they take the Finale - Andante tranquillo even SLOWER than the extremely slow Manze, as discussed here before. At no less than 15:26 minutes:

What a good find!  What a shame the middle movements are not well represented.
Last-movement timings are always a bit unreliable as they may include variable amounts of silence and/or applause at the end.  The actual timing for Manze (to audible end of diminuendo) is 15:01 and for Hopkins here, 15:22 - no, 15:17 - but same difference really.
[edited to correct Hopkins time]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 19, 2019, 05:46:28 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 19, 2019, 02:50:20 AM
What a good find!  What a shame the middle movements are not well represented. Last-movement timings are always a bit unreliable as they may include variable amounts of silence and/or applause at the end.  The actual timing for Manze (to audible end of diminuendo) is 15:01 and for Hopkins here, 15:22 - same difference really.
Yep, a real find. Actually, only the first movement is missing. Both the second - Andante sostenuto - and third - Scherzo: Allegro pesante - are there, both also much slower than any other recording, at 9:30 and 6:11 respectively. (Confusingly, the audio is followed immediately by parts of the Andante in this Youtube audio, but the first 6:11 minutes of that section are the complete Scherzo).

What triggered my interest is this "slowness", comparable to Manze's, but even slower. Both performances - the Manze and this Hopkins - are markedly different in this respect from all other recordings, and I'm still trying to find out what it means. To start with, it makes for an intriguing, new listening experience with this wonderful, elusive symphony.  :)
https://www.youtube.com/v/7osr5s-Qzt0 https://www.youtube.com/v/XwNECN9F9Ms [in reality: Scherzo - Allegro pesante, 06:11 minutes long]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on June 19, 2019, 06:13:02 AM
dotted quarter = 60 is extremely slow.  That's even slow for largo.  The feel of the music is rhapsodic sort of like Lark Ascending so metronome isn't as important as the right feel hence a wide range of tempi.  To me, I feel the ache and longing is lost at fast tempo in this symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 19, 2019, 06:20:50 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 19, 2019, 06:13:02 AM
dotted quarter = 60 is extremely slow.  That's even slow for largo.  The feel of the music is rhapsodic sort of like Lark Ascending so metronome isn't as important as the right feel hence a wide range of tempi.  To me, I feel the ache and longing is lost at fast tempo in this symphony.
To me, too. For now, these two "extremely slow" performances convince me more than most of the other readings, especially in the mysterious Finale. I'm still hoping for someone to do a similar trick with the Sixth, which could also benefit from such an approach IMO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 19, 2019, 11:18:41 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 18, 2019, 11:19:22 AM
Found this 1987 radio broadcast of conductor John Hopkins with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra (NOT the Teldec recording with Andrew Davis and the BBC SO, as suggested).  Interestingly, they take the Finale - Andante tranquillo even SLOWER than the extremely slow Manze, as discussed here before. At no less than 15:26 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/v/S-ADxVhzMbI&list=UU6K8IQTxx-FVBHgjSIvZO1A&index=3
It is a great performance of the finale I must say. Possibly the best I have heard. A very searching and visionary performance. Is that the same John Hopkins who conducted Lilburn? I think that Boult told VW that he thought that the ending of the symphony came on too abruptly (I disagree) and suggested, rather cheekily, that VW compose some more music in the last movement. VW who, of course, died shortly afterwards said that he'd think about it but in the meantime Boult could perform it more slowly. So maybe the old man would have approved of John Hopkins performance. By the way, the underrated Abravanel recording of Symphony 6 is very slow in the finale.
It's recently been reissued very cheaply:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on June 19, 2019, 04:03:38 PM
Quote from: Christo on June 19, 2019, 06:20:50 AM
To me, too. For now, these two "extremely slow" performances convince me more than most of the other readings, especially in the mysterious Finale. I'm still hoping for someone to do a similar trick with the Sixth, which could also benefit from such an approach IMO.

Intriguing prospect about a slower 6.  I assume you mean only the finale?  What do you have in mind?  What is your perfect recorded ending other than it's not slow enough?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on June 19, 2019, 04:29:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 19, 2019, 11:18:41 AM
It is a great performance of the finale I must say. Possibly the best I have heard. A very searching and visionary performance. Is that the same John Hopkins who conducted Lilburn? I think that Boult told VW thatbhevthought that the ending of the symphony came on too abruptly (I disagree) and suggested, rather cheekily, that VW compose some more music in the last movement. VW who, of course, died shortly afterwards said that he'd think about it but in the meantime Boult could perform it more slowly. So maybe the old man would have approved of John Hopkins performance. By the way, the underrated Abravanel recording of Symphony 6 is very slow in the finale.
It's recently been reissued very cheaply:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61du8o9gWWL.jpg)

It's on the way! Thanks for the tip, I wasn't aware it had been reissued.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 19, 2019, 09:30:46 PM
Quote from: André on June 19, 2019, 04:29:12 PM
It's on the way! Thanks for the tip, I wasn't aware it had been reissued.  :)
Great! Fabulous CD Andre. Also, on LP, it was my introduction to DNP. I like the unique coupling of the two works and always liked Abravanel's Utah recordings (VW, Sibelius, Bloch etc). Look forward to hearing your view of it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 20, 2019, 12:34:56 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 19, 2019, 05:46:28 AM
Yep, a real find. Actually, only the first movement is missing. Both the second - Andante sostenuto - and third - Scherzo: Allegro pesante - are there, both also much slower than any other recording, at 9:30 and 6:11 respectively. (Confusingly, the audio is followed immediately by parts of the Andante in this Youtube audio, but the first 6:11 minutes of that section are the complete Scherzo).

Yes - I see.  That Andante is really nice too.  The Sherzo transfer is unfortunately not up to snuff - sounds as though it's arrived via a maladjusted cassette machine.
The Hopkins Finale duration corrected again (also in my post upthread) to 15:17 - there is also a few seconds of white space at the start of the YouTube that I had overlooked.  But it also sounds fractionally truncated at both ends, so 15:18 or 15:19 might be truer of the actual performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on June 20, 2019, 04:15:31 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 19, 2019, 04:03:38 PM
Intriguing prospect about a slower 6.  I assume you mean only the finale?  What do you have in mind?  What is your perfect recorded ending other than it's not slow enough?
No, sorry, not the Finale (that doesn't grow in effect with it - as shown by the very slow (almost 15 minutes) performance with the USSR SSO under Rozhdestvensky) but the opening movement that could be done with more drama than usual. For that reason I prefer Bryden Thomson over all others, he's the only one who dares to open with a slower pace, the drama more convincingly enfolding IMHO.

Quote from: aukhawk on June 20, 2019, 12:34:56 AM
Yes - I see.  That Andante is really nice too.  The Sherzo transfer is unfortunately not up to snuff - sounds as though it's arrived via a maladjusted cassette machine.
The Hopkins Finale duration corrected again (also in my post upthread) to 15:17 - there is also a few seconds of white space at the start of the YouTube that I had overlooked.  But it also sounds fractionally truncated at both ends, so 15:18 or 15:19 might be truer of the actual performance.
Agreed, both the Andante and the Finale are admirably done here and this performance really forced me to listen anew to this symphony.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 20, 2019, 06:40:47 AM
The Andrew Davis cycle (in mini versions of the original cover images) has been reissued through this interesting set:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 20, 2019, 09:16:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 20, 2019, 06:40:47 AM
The Andrew Davis cycle (in mini versions of the original cover images) has been reissued through this interesting set:
(//)

At the moment on Amazon UK some 3rd party seller has the Davis/RVW/Warner cycle complete for £5.41 plus P&P and someone else the pair of Elgar Symphonies for £1.04!!  This latest Warner regurgitation seems pretty pricey pushing 40 quid......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 20, 2019, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 20, 2019, 09:16:21 AM
At the moment on Amazon UK some 3rd party seller has the Davis/RVW/Warner cycle complete for £5.41 plus P&P and someone else the pair of Elgar Symphonies for £1.04!!  This latest Warner regurgitation seems pretty pricey pushing 40 quid......

Good point although there's a lot in there.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 21, 2019, 12:41:27 AM
Not sure about the Manze 9th. Normally I am a sucker for slower tempi, but here it makes the whole symphony seem plodding. I think Thompson is still on the right track.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 29, 2019, 12:47:58 AM
No good to me as I wouldn't know where to start but may be of interest to more clued up forum members. CRQ Editions have issued as a download only Pierre Monteux conducting the LSO in Vaughan Williams "London" Symphony. A BBC live recording from the RFH on 24th September 1962. The tape was derived from the collection of the late film director Ken Russell.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 29, 2019, 01:03:47 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 29, 2019, 12:47:58 AM
No good to me as I wouldn't know where to start but may be of interest to more clued up forum members. CRQ Editions have issued as a download only Pierre Monteux conducting the LSO in Vaughan Williams "London" Symphony. A BBC live recording from the RFH on 24th September 1962. The tape was derived from the collection of the late film director Ken Russell.

That's interesting. Pristine Audio issued an interesting CD of the 1958 premiere of Symphony 9 (Sargent - not as bad as everyone says IMO) coupled with a wartime recording of A London Symphony condected by Mitropolous - complete with 'chimes of Big Ben' making an extraneous reappearance at the very end of the symphony!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 29, 2019, 11:32:05 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 29, 2019, 01:03:47 AM
That's interesting. Pristine Audio issued an interesting CD of the 1958 premiere of Symphony 9 (Sargent - not as bad as everyone says IMO) coupled with a wartime recording of A London Symphony condected by Mitropolous - complete with 'chimes of Big Ben' making an extraneous reappearance at the very end of the symphony!

The world and it's dog take delight at a well aimed kick at poor old Sargent. I buy his recordings out of sympathy.

I have come across a commercial RVW recording by Mitropolous - think it may be the 4th, but not sure - have you heard it Jeffrey?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 30, 2019, 12:27:56 AM
Mitropolous/NYPO released Tallis Fantasia coupled with Schoenberg Verklarte Nacht in July 1958 - one of the very earliest stereo classical LPs (Columbia label).  I listened to the Schoenberg only the other day and it sounds very fine.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 30, 2019, 01:26:12 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 29, 2019, 11:32:05 PM
The world and it's dog take delight at a well aimed kick at poor old Sargent. I buy his recordings out of sympathy.

I have come across a commercial RVW recording by Mitropolous - think it may be the 4th, but not sure - have you heard it Jeffrey?
Yes, sure Lol. Here it is (with the Tallis Fantasia):
I think it's an excellent recording and prefer it to the composer's own version. VW apparently thought highly of the Mitropolous performance as well.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 30, 2019, 04:45:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 30, 2019, 01:26:12 AM
Yes, sure Lol. Here it is (with the Tallis Fantasia):
I think it's an excellent recording and prefer it to the composer's own version. VW apparently thought highly of the Mitropolous performance as well.
(//)

Thanks Jeffrey. I will invest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 30, 2019, 07:36:49 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 30, 2019, 04:45:32 AM
Thanks Jeffrey. I will invest.
I like the Stokowski Symphony 6 (premiere recording) as well. Here it is again with the more recent cover:
(http://[quote%20author=irons%20link=topic=220.msg1223102#msg1223102%20date=1561898732%5D%3Cbr%20/%3EThanks%20Jeffrey.%20I%20will%20invest.%3Cbr%20/%3E%5B/quote%5D)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 02, 2019, 01:46:43 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 29, 2019, 11:32:05 PM
The world and it's dog take delight at a well aimed kick at poor old Sargent. I buy his recordings out of sympathy.

I have come across a commercial RVW recording by Mitropolous - think it may be the 4th, but not sure - have you heard it Jeffrey?

Yesterday I played the pristine Audio recording of the 9th and found it fine.

RVW heard the premiere but I can't find any comment on his part, good or bad. The sources I consulted, principally Michael Kennedy, concentrate on the critical response to the work and I couldn't find any mention made of Sargent's contribution.

Another recent posting suggested RVW didn't feature greatly in Sargent's repertoire. Apparently, Sargent was 'half-promised' the premiere of the 4th Symphony but it went to Boult instead; perhaps frostiness ensued.

I am intrigued by RVW's suggestion to Boult that he could conduct the Finale slower if he found the ending came too slowly. Was he pulling Boult's leg? I suppose without more context we will never know.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 02, 2019, 02:19:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 30, 2019, 07:36:49 AM
I like the Stokowski Symphony 6 (premiere recording) as well. Here it is again with the more recent cover:


I listened to this version of No.6 yesterday - proves what a tricky piece this is - especially when first encountered.  The NYPO playing is pretty ropey - very scrappy string playing in the scherzo.  Perhaps the orchestra was still suffering from the aftermath of the War?  From memory the Boult recording which also uses the original/unrevised version of the scherzo is better played.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 02, 2019, 02:38:33 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 02, 2019, 02:19:00 AM
I listened to this version of No.6 yesterday - proves what a tricky piece this is - especially when first encountered.  The NYPO playing is pretty ropey - very scrappy string playing in the scherzo.  Perhaps the orchestra was still suffering from the aftermath of the War?  From memory the Boult recording which also uses the original/unrevised version of the scherzo is better played.

Boult's 1949/50 version of No 6 is my favourite, no problems with the playing of the LSO that I recall - the Dutton release has both versions of the Scherzo
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on July 02, 2019, 06:39:21 AM
Quote from: Biffo on July 02, 2019, 02:38:33 AM
Boult's 1949/50 version of No 6 is my favourite, no problems with the playing of the LSO that I recall - the Dutton release has both versions of the Scherzo

You are not the first to say that. HMV Treasury on LP also included both versions of the Scherzo. Not my favourite work by RVW but also included the best version of "The Lark Ascending" I have heard, played by Jean Pougnet.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kROXkz4fwrw/TP7P5QUNhrI/AAAAAAAAA10/pTx3IHxcOak/s1600/ED+RVW+Boult.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 02, 2019, 01:58:41 PM
Quote from: Irons on July 02, 2019, 06:39:21 AM
You are not the first to say that. HMV Treasury on LP also included both versions of the Scherzo. Not my favourite work by RVW but also included the best version of "The Lark Ascending" I have heard, played by Jean Pougnet.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kROXkz4fwrw/TP7P5QUNhrI/AAAAAAAAA10/pTx3IHxcOak/s1600/ED+RVW+Boult.jpg)
Yes, that and the Hugh Bean recording are my favourite versions of The Lark Ascending. Turning on the car radio earlier today I heard a very engaging piece sounding rather like VW but I couldn't place it. In my head I was guessing whether it was by Grace Williams. It turned out to be VW's 'Bluebird' which I own on CD.  ::)

This is my favourite version of Symphony 6 and probably the most influential recording that I bought in relation to the effect that it had on my 17 year old self:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on July 02, 2019, 11:52:54 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 02, 2019, 01:58:41 PM
Yes, that and the Hugh Bean recording are my favourite versions of The Lark Ascending. Turning on the car radio earlier today I heard a very engaging piece sounding rather like VW but I couldn't place it. In my head I was guessing whether it was by Grace Williams. It turned out to be VW's 'Bluebird' which I own on CD.  ::)

This is my favourite version of Symphony 6 and probably the most influential recording that I bought in relation to the effect that it had on my 17 year old self:
(//)

I have not heard of "Bluebird". Must investigate.

I agree with you Jeffrey on the best version of the 6th although the stereo EMI is no slouch by any means. I am surprised to discover that the Decca recorded in December 1953 and the mono EMI only four years previously in 1949. I view the EMI (Douglas Larter, balance engineer) as a historical recording where as the former (Kenneth Wilkinson) holds its own and surpasses many for sound when compared with modern recordings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 03, 2019, 01:18:19 PM
Quote from: Irons on July 02, 2019, 11:52:54 PM
I have not heard of "Bluebird". Must investigate.


Check BBC iplayer - Radio 3 - the BBC Concert Orchestra/Martin Yates English Music Festival - still available for roughly 4 weeks - includes both the premiere live performance of the Bluebird and Robin Milford's 2nd Symphony......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on July 03, 2019, 11:21:50 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 03, 2019, 01:18:19 PM
Check BBC iplayer - Radio 3 - the BBC Concert Orchestra/Martin Yates English Music Festival - still available for roughly 4 weeks - includes both the premiere live performance of the Bluebird and Robin Milford's 2nd Symphony......

Thanks, I will do that.

Talking of obscure RVW I am most impressed with "The Lakes in the Mountains". A piece for solo piano (a rarity in itself) from a excellent disc of chamber music by The Nash Ensemble on Hyperion.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51q%2BfVjeLqL._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 04, 2019, 01:46:47 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 03, 2019, 11:21:50 PM
Thanks, I will do that.

Talking of obscure RVW I am most impressed with "The Lakes in the Mountains". A piece for solo piano (a rarity in itself) from a excellent disc of chamber music by The Nash Ensemble on Hyperion.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51q%2BfVjeLqL._SY355_.jpg)
Me too Lol. I think that it originated in a film score. I like that Hyperion CD very much.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 04, 2019, 07:36:54 PM
Although the music for the Blue Bird is described as a premiere performance, it has already been released on Dutton.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 04, 2019, 09:58:18 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 04, 2019, 07:36:54 PM
Although the music for the Blue Bird is described as a premiere performance, it has already been released on Dutton.
I thought that the Dutton was the only recording. Is there another one?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 04, 2019, 10:32:00 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 04, 2019, 09:58:18 PM
I thought that the Dutton was the only recording. Is there another one?
I guess the BBC is claiming that this is the 'public premiere'; the Dutton CD has a studio performance from Glasgow, August 2017, with the Royal Scots under the same conductor. I played it often, over the last months:   
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81kV-mHjZXL._SX355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on July 04, 2019, 11:31:52 PM
Quote from: Christo on July 04, 2019, 10:32:00 PM
I guess the BBC is claiming that this is the 'public premiere'; the Dutton CD has a studio performance from Glasgow, August 2017, with the Royal Scots under the same conductor. I played it often, over the last months:   
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81kV-mHjZXL._SX355_.jpg)

I listened to the link and enjoyed "The Blue Bird" enough to order the Dutton CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 05, 2019, 07:50:11 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 04, 2019, 11:31:52 PM
I listened to the link and enjoyed "The Blue Bird" enough to order the Dutton CD.

Ah the joy of differing tastes..... I thought the BBC concert from the English Music Festival was excellent but my only relative disappointment was "The Bluebird".  Effective enough as incidental music I'm sure but no mature/particularly characteristic RVW at all except for the odd pentatonic phrase.  Conversely the early Stanford concerto was very impressive.  Not very individual - any innocent ear would surely guess Germanic in origin but great fun if you like Romantic Violin Concerti with bold gestures and plenty of display.  Very well played here too.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 05, 2019, 01:40:30 PM
I had an interesting experience the other day, I was listening to Previn's VW S9 and in the slow movement it suddenly struck me that the climax has eight notes struck on the tubular bell. I suddenly thought "wait a minute, isn't the S9 supposed to based on music that was inspired by Hardy's Tess of the D'Urbevilles. And in that novel isn't Tess hanged at 8 o'clock in the final chapter?" I looked up references and it appears that this is what that passage is about. I was so pleased because normally I'm rubbish at guessing the programme for programme music.

BTW after listening to Manze's S9 and not liking it (it made me think in places "wait, haven't I got the wrong track, isn't this the Antarctic?") and went back and listened to Thomson and then Previn, and I think that Previn has the edge for me. His account is more epic in finale, even more sort of "fare forth!" in tone than Thomson.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2019, 02:20:15 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 05, 2019, 01:40:30 PM
I had an interesting experience the other day, I was listening to Previn's VW S9 and in the slow movement it suddenly struck me that the climax has eight notes struck on the tubular bell. I suddenly thought "wait a minute, isn't the S9 supposed to based on music that was inspired by Hardy's Tess of the D'Urbevilles. And in that novel isn't Tess hanged at 8 o'clock in the final chapter?" I looked up references and it appears that this is what that passage is about. I was so pleased because normally I'm rubbish at guessing the programme for programme music.

BTW after listening to Manze's S9 and not liking it (it made me think in places "wait, haven't I got the wrong track, isn't this the Antarctic?") and went back and listened to Thomson and then Previn, and I think that Previn has the edge for me. His account is more epic in finale, even more sort of "fare forth!" in tone than Thomson.

Very interesting comments. I remain loyal to Boult in Symphony 9, along with Thomson, Slatkin and Stokowski. The Andrew Davis BBC Music Magazine freebie CD was also very good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on July 06, 2019, 02:16:07 AM
I wouldn't call the CD a freebie given that the magazine content (to judge solely by the recent issue with the Moeran cover disc) is worthless.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 06, 2019, 02:45:51 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 05, 2019, 01:40:30 PM
I had an interesting experience the other day, I was listening to Previn's VW S9 and in the slow movement it suddenly struck me that the climax has eight notes struck on the tubular bell. I suddenly thought "wait a minute, isn't the S9 supposed to based on music that was inspired by Hardy's Tess of the D'Urbevilles. And in that novel isn't Tess hanged at 8 o'clock in the final chapter?" I looked up references and it appears that this is what that passage is about. I was so pleased because normally I'm rubbish at guessing the programme for programme music.

BTW after listening to Manze's S9 and not liking it (it made me think in places "wait, haven't I got the wrong track, isn't this the Antarctic?") and went back and listened to Thomson and then Previn, and I think that Previn has the edge for me. His account is more epic in finale, even more sort of "fare forth!" in tone than Thomson.

Great find, love it! BTW, speaking about the slow movement (Andante sostenuto) of the Ninth: the sheer poignancy of Thomson, both here and in the Scherzo (Allegro pesante) remain my first choice, though I prefer Previn in the outer movements and also - to my own surprise, but it's really one of the best - Vernon Handley.

As for the Manze: his approach is totally inconsistent with his other recordings - especially the Sixth shares common ground with the Ninth IMHO, and should be treated similarly - but, very sorry, yet I do: I love his extremely elegiac Ninth too.  8) It's certainly not what the defiant-til-the-end composer himself had in mind, yet: it is a farewell and Manze's reading stretches these aspects to the limit.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 06, 2019, 05:48:18 AM
Now,I've got all those opera and operetta recording (and Franz Lehár,Christo! ;D) out of my system;I've finally got those Vaughan Williams Bryden Thomson cd's,piled up,next to the cd player! John Ireland's Piano Concerto is playing at the moment;with Kathryn Stott playing;as I wanted to listen to it,as I typed up my post in the,relevant,Ireland,thread. Although,I must admit it's been,mostly,Bax,Bantock and Holbrooke,for the last week! About the only composer I turned off (twice!) was Cyril Scott!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 06, 2019, 07:47:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 06, 2019, 05:48:18 AM
Now,I've got all those opera and operetta recording (and Franz Lehár,Christo! ;D) out of my system
8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 06, 2019, 10:07:43 AM
Playing now! All this talk of 'listening piles' and Lehár (well,just me,actually ::)) reminds me of those Gramophone lists,after the venerable,magazine began it's sad decline!
ie: "Some other music I might enjoy after listening to VW's Pastoral Symphony?!

If you enjoyed this.......                                                                                 You might,possibly.................?!!

(https://i.imgur.com/FUPudrN.jpg)      (https://i.imgur.com/6umKCeh.jpg)

This is my first real,listen!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 06, 2019, 10:09:53 AM
No 4! Thomson's 'Pastoral' had the most luscious,sumptuous sound,of any recording of that symphony,I have yet to hear! Yvonne Kenny has a lovely voice,but she seemed a bit too 'near'! A good recording;and who am I to criticise? Some nameless,oik!! (Okay,that's enough self deprecatory!! But true,I suppose?!! Not too keen on that,"oik",though! :()) But it seemed lacking in something! Atmosphere,I think?! I have listened to this recording of the Fourth a few times now,though;and I think it is,absolutely,splendid! I like it,very much!! :)

(https://i.imgur.com/bX6IBiz.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on July 06, 2019, 10:21:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 06, 2019, 10:09:53 AM
No 4! Thomson's 'Pastoral' had the most luscious,sumptuous sound,of any recording of that symphony,I have yet to hear! Yvonne Kenny has a lovely voice,but she seemed a bit too 'near'! A good recording;and who am I to criticise? Some nameless,oik!! (Okay,that's enough self deprecatory!! But true,I suppose?!! Not too keen on that,"oik",though! :()) But it seemed lacking in something! Atmosphere,I think?! I have listened to this recording of the Fourth a few times now,though;and I think it is,absolutely,splendid! I like it,very much!! :)

(https://i.imgur.com/bX6IBiz.jpg)

Good post: I like the self deprecation. Carry on  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2019, 10:39:55 AM
Quote from: aligreto on July 06, 2019, 10:21:52 AM
Good post: I like the self deprecation. Carry on  8)
+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: cilgwyn on July 06, 2019, 03:04:22 PM
I have now listened to Thomson's recording of the Fifth Symphony. I enjoyed this recording;and I like it very much! I wasn't so sure about his recording of the third,though. I just felt it was lacking in something. Atmosphere? I can't really put my finger on it! Oh,and it might have been my ears,or these wireless headphones ::);but the soloist seemed too close! Yvonne Kenny certainly has a lovely voice,though. It just seemed to lack that sense of mystery I find in say,Previn or Boult! Oh,and it's also the most sumptuous recording of the third I have heard! It almost seemed lush! Which is nice and good;but maybe,a little too much. It certainly brings out the beauty of the scoring,though! The Fifth is much more to my taste,though. I think it is a very good recording. That said,Barbirolli is still my favourite! Maybe it's just my age ::),but it's just got more atmosphere,poetry and mystery! Thomson's account is still very good,though. That said,to my mind,good as his Fifth is,it's the Fourth and Sixth where Thomson really comes into his own. I think they are two of the most exciting,gripping,recordings I have heard. I also like his Ninth! I think I would place that third,after his Fourth and Sixth. And,I will have to listen to the eighth properly,when I get to it now;but what I heard,when I gave it a cursory listen,when I got the cd,did sound rather gorgeous! I need to continue through the entire cycle,though,before I can really make up my mind. But there's no doubt,it's a very rewarding cycle. I only wish he could have been with us a bit longer! It's great that his Daniel Jones cycle is being released on Lyrita! (Hurry up,with Symphonies 3 & 5,Lyrita! ;D)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 06, 2019, 06:18:11 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 05, 2019, 01:40:30 PM
I had an interesting experience the other day, I was listening to Previn's VW S9 and in the slow movement it suddenly struck me that the climax has eight notes struck on the tubular bell. I suddenly thought "wait a minute, isn't the S9 supposed to based on music that was inspired by Hardy's Tess of the D'Urbevilles. And in that novel isn't Tess hanged at 8 o'clock in the final chapter?" I looked up references and it appears that this is what that passage is about. I was so pleased because normally I'm rubbish at guessing the programme for programme music.

BTW after listening to Manze's S9 and not liking it (it made me think in places "wait, haven't I got the wrong track, isn't this the Antarctic?") and went back and listened to Thomson and then Previn, and I think that Previn has the edge for me. His account is more epic in finale, even more sort of "fare forth!" in tone than Thomson.

Well done.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2019, 11:12:33 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 06, 2019, 03:04:22 PM
I have now listened to Thomson's recording of the Fifth Symphony. I enjoyed this recording;and I like it very much! I wasn't so sure about his recording of the third,though. I just felt it was lacking in something. Atmosphere? I can't really put my finger on it! Oh,and it might have been my ears,or these wireless headphones ::);but the soloist seemed too close! Yvonne Kenny certainly has a lovely voice,though. It just seemed to lack that sense of mystery I find in say,Previn or Boult! Oh,and it's also the most sumptuous recording of the third I have heard! It almost seemed lush! Which is nice and good;but maybe,a little too much. It certainly brings out the beauty of the scoring,though! The Fifth is much more to my taste,though. I think it is a very good recording. That said,Barbirolli is still my favourite! Maybe it's just my age ::),but it's just got more atmosphere,poetry and mystery! Thomson's account is still very good,though. That said,to my mind,good as his Fifth is,it's the Fourth and Sixth where Thomson really comes into his own. I think they are two of the most exciting,gripping,recordings I have heard. I also like his Ninth! I think I would place that third,after his Fourth and Sixth. And,I will have to listen to the eighth properly,when I get to it now;but what I heard,when I gave it a cursory listen,when I got the cd,did sound rather gorgeous! I need to continue through the entire cycle,though,before I can really make up my mind. But there's no doubt,it's a very rewarding cycle. I only wish he could have been with us a bit longer! It's great that his Daniel Jones cycle is being released on Lyrita! (Hurry up,with Symphonies 3 & 5,Lyrita! ;D)
I'm enjoying your reviews of the Thomson cycle cigwyn and look forward to reading your thoughts on the later symphonies. I rate that cycle very highly. It's appearance pre-dated Musicweb and they have only just reviewed it:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Apr/VW_sys_CHAN9087.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 17, 2019, 06:34:01 AM
I've got this concert coming up on Saturday:

Grant Park Orchestra
Martyn Brabbins, conductor
Stephen Hough, pianist
MacMillan: Stomp
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 3
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 2 "A London Symphony"

This will be the 4th VW symphony I've heard at Grant Park. Martyn Brabbins - I've heard of him, but never heard him. Any thoughts on his VW?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 17, 2019, 06:37:08 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 17, 2019, 06:34:01 AM
I've got this concert coming up on Saturday:

Grant Park Orchestra
Martyn Brabbins, conductor
Stephen Hough, pianist
MacMillan: Stomp
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 3
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 2 "A London Symphony"

This will be the 4th VW symphony I've heard at Grant Park. Martyn Brabbins - I've heard of him, but never heard him. Any thoughts on his VW?
He recorded the 1920 version (a few minutes longer) of 'A London Symphony' for Hyperion and that recording is very fine. The question is: which version will he do now?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/817Yogo5gML._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 17, 2019, 06:53:53 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 17, 2019, 06:34:01 AM
I've got this concert coming up on Saturday:

Grant Park Orchestra
Martyn Brabbins, conductor
Stephen Hough, pianist
MacMillan: Stomp
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 3
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 2 "A London Symphony"

This will be the 4th VW symphony I've heard at Grant Park. Martyn Brabbins - I've heard of him, but never heard him. Any thoughts on his VW?


Brabbins conducted a fine performance of the Sea Symphony in Edinburgh last year and it was broadcast; I preferred it to his recording for Hyperion with different forces released shortly afterwards. He has also recorded the 1920 version of the London Symphony which provoked some discussion in this thread. Hopefully, there is more to come.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 17, 2019, 07:16:07 AM
Quote from: Christo on July 17, 2019, 06:37:08 AM
He recorded the 1920 version (a few minutes longer) of 'A London Symphony' for Hyperion and that recording is very fine. The question is: which version will he do now?


Unfortunately the program notes don't really answer that question. They list date of composition as "1912-14" which suggests the first version to me, though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 17, 2019, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 17, 2019, 07:16:07 AM
Unfortunately the program notes don't really answer that question. They list date of composition as "1912-14" which suggests the first version to me, though.

Not a chance its the original version - that was released one-time only by the RVW estate to make the Hickox recording.  I would be surprised if internationally any version except the "standard" revision was played - in part because of availability of the orchestral parts.......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 17, 2019, 08:25:13 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 17, 2019, 08:18:52 AM
Not a chance its the original version - that was released one-time only by the RVW estate to make the Hickox recording.  I would be surprised if internationally any version except the "standard" revision was played - in part because of availability of the orchestral parts.......

I'm not familiar with the various versions of the piece. Which is the one most commonly played?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 17, 2019, 08:38:29 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 17, 2019, 08:25:13 AM
I'm not familiar with the various versions of the piece. Which is the one most commonly played?

The revised score of 1933 (published 1936) is most commonly played, and until fairly  recently, the only version played. RVW considered further revision in 1951 but decided the work was 'beyond mending'

The original 1913-14 version was recorded by Richard Hickox in 2007, more recently the 1920 version was recorded by Martyn Brabbins.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 17, 2019, 09:23:39 AM
Quote from: Biffo on July 17, 2019, 08:38:29 AM
The revised score of 1933 (published 1936) is most commonly played, and until fairly  recently, the only version played. RVW considered further revision in 1951 but decided the work was 'beyond mending'

The original 1913-14 version was recorded by Richard Hickox in 2007, more recently the 1920 version was recorded by Martyn Brabbins.
I like the Brabbins releases more than those of Manze and Elder (although Elder's A Pastoral Symphony is excellent). I hope that the 1920 version gets performed in Chicago. I don't listen to the 1936 version anymore as my enjoyment is undermined by the missing section in the Epilogue.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 21, 2019, 01:52:10 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 17, 2019, 06:34:01 AM
I've got this concert coming up on Saturday:

Grant Park Orchestra
Martyn Brabbins, conductor
Stephen Hough, pianist
MacMillan: Stomp
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 3
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 2 "A London Symphony"

Well the performance of this turned out great, and it's a good thing I went Saturday instead of Friday. This review details the problems of the Friday performance, which were thankfully absent when I was there:

https://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2019/07/brabbins-grant-park-orchestra-master-heat-humidity-and-helicopters-with-rewarding-program/

The orchestra played superbly throughout. If they were a regular orchestra instead of a summer one playing outside, I think they'd be recognized as one of the major American orchestras. I think they really nailed the piece, with some great ensemble as well as solo work.

And Hough was terrific in the Beethoven, too.

I've now heard 4 of the 9 VW symphonies live. I think that's pretty good for this side of the ocean.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2019, 01:59:52 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 21, 2019, 01:52:10 PM
Well the performance of this turned out great, and it's a good thing I went Saturday instead of Friday. This review details the problems of the Friday performance, which were thankfully absent when I was there:

https://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2019/07/brabbins-grant-park-orchestra-master-heat-humidity-and-helicopters-with-rewarding-program/

The orchestra played superbly throughout. If they were a regular orchestra instead of a summer one playing outside, I think they'd be recognized as one of the major American orchestras. I think they really nailed the piece, with some great ensemble as well as solo work.

And Hough was terrific in the Beethoven, too.

I've now heard 4 of the 9 VW symphonies live. I think that's pretty good for this side of the ocean.
Interesting review. Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 21, 2019, 03:04:28 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 21, 2019, 01:52:10 PM
Well the performance of this turned out great, and it's a good thing I went Saturday instead of Friday. This review details the problems of the Friday performance, which were thankfully absent when I was there:

https://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2019/07/brabbins-grant-park-orchestra-master-heat-humidity-and-helicopters-with-rewarding-program/

The orchestra played superbly throughout. If they were a regular orchestra instead of a summer one playing outside, I think they'd be recognized as one of the major American orchestras. I think they really nailed the piece, with some great ensemble as well as solo work.

And Hough was terrific in the Beethoven, too.

I've now heard 4 of the 9 VW symphonies live. I think that's pretty good for this side of the ocean.


Nice!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 21, 2019, 11:30:34 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 21, 2019, 01:52:10 PM
I've now heard 4 of the 9 VW symphonies live. I think that's pretty good for this side of the ocean.
So far, I scored 5, here in the Netherlands (Nos. 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7) but only the Fourth and Antartica by professional orchestras.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2019, 11:43:43 PM
I think I've heard them all live  0:)
But that is hardly surprising living in the UK and being brought up in London in walking distance from the Albert Hall. In particular I was fortunate to hear Boult conduct several of them live. I suspect that I've only heard A Sea Symphony and Sinfonia Antartica live once. Possibly No.8 as well - on VW's 100th birthday (12/10/1972) at RFH London (Boult). I was also at the first performance of the 1913 version of A Lonon Symphony since. c.1920.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on July 22, 2019, 09:03:14 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 21, 2019, 01:52:10 PM
Well the performance of this turned out great, and it's a good thing I went Saturday instead of Friday. This review details the problems of the Friday performance, which were thankfully absent when I was there:

https://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2019/07/brabbins-grant-park-orchestra-master-heat-humidity-and-helicopters-with-rewarding-program/

The orchestra played superbly throughout. If they were a regular orchestra instead of a summer one playing outside, I think they'd be recognized as one of the major American orchestras. I think they really nailed the piece, with some great ensemble as well as solo work.

And Hough was terrific in the Beethoven, too.

I've now heard 4 of the 9 VW symphonies live. I think that's pretty good for this side of the ocean.

Excellent! It's always great to hear about a VW symphony being played by an American orchestra. I still have yet to see one live...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on August 07, 2019, 02:22:30 AM
Quote from: kyjo on July 22, 2019, 09:03:14 PM
Excellent! It's always great to hear about a VW symphony being played by an American orchestra. I still have yet to see one live...

It's actually great to hear a VW symphony by a British orchestra as well - a fact that seems to have evaded the programmers of the BBC Proms this year...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 07, 2019, 11:48:37 AM
Last year's Proms performance of 'A London Symphony' (Manze, 1936 version) features as part of the cover CD for the September issue of BBC Music Magazine together with Elgar's Cello Concerto.

Here's a rather interesting short article I came across online on Vaughan Williams's Symphony No.6:
http://www.classical-music.com/article/guide-vaughan-williamss-symphony-no-6
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on August 18, 2019, 03:26:16 PM
I just listened to Ralph Vaughan Williams' 3rd, Pastoral symphony, not for the first time, but like never before it struck me as so awe-inspiringly beautiful, such a heart breaking testament to peace, the likes of which has probably not been achieved before or since in any music. Particularly the fourth movement, which completely blew me away. I did not expect that I'd be in such a receptive space for this music, so it kind of caught me off guard. Anyway, well worth a listen. This was the great André Previn/London Symphony recording. I have a hard time believing that this performance could be topped.

I think this great work has something in common with Ravel's Le Tombeau de Couperin. Of course, both composers were veterans of the Great War, and these pieces are somewhat reflections of their experiences.

Anyway, the Pastoral is the only RVW symphony that I've heard. If I like this one, which others might I appreciate? I'm listening now to the Sea Symphony, which is quite good, I think, but not quite hitting me in the same way.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 18, 2019, 03:33:27 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 18, 2019, 03:26:16 PM
I just listened to Ralph Vaughan Williams' 3rd, Pastoral symphony, not for the first time, but like never before it struck me as so awe-inspiringly beautiful, such a heart breaking testament to peace, the likes of which has probably not been achieved before or since in any music. Particularly the fourth movement, which completely blew me away. I did not expect that I'd be in such a receptive space for this music, so it kind of caught me off guard. Anyway, well worth a listen. This was the great André Previn/London Symphony recording. I have a hard time believing that this performance could be topped.

I think this great work has something in common with Ravel's Le Tombeau de Couperin. Of course, both composers were veterans of the Great War, and these pieces are somewhat reflections of their experiences.

Anyway, the Pastoral is the only RVW symphony that I've heard. If I like this one, which others might I appreciate? I'm listening now to the Sea Symphony, which is quite good, I think, but not quite hitting me in the same way.
I think that Previn LSO version is the greatest recording of the work. I suspect that Symphony No.5 might appeal to you as well and you can't go wrong with Previn's LSO recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 18, 2019, 06:55:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 18, 2019, 03:33:27 PM
I think that Previn LSO version is the greatest recording of the work. I suspect that Symphony No.5 might appeal to you as well and you can't go wrong with Previn's LSO recording.

Yes! It's quite likely the best recording of the 5th. I love it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 18, 2019, 10:31:54 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on August 18, 2019, 06:55:26 PM
Yes! It's quite likely the best recording of the 5th. I love it.

Another vote for No.5 and Previn.  I think the Pastoral is one of RVW's true masterpieces.  Alongside it the Mass in G minor is similarly contemplative and of course the rapture of the Tallis Fantasia is without equal.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 18, 2019, 11:13:28 PM
Also good to know that of the 33 recordings of No. 5 that I could find, three are by Previn, who came back to it in 1988 and 1995. I made a comparison of the timings of the four movements:

Previn / LSO 1971               12.53            05.17            12.19            11.18
Previn / RPO 1988               12.30            05.14            12.57            09.55
Previn / SO Curtis 1995       12.43            05.24            12.08            10.21
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 18, 2019, 11:59:57 PM
Quote from: Christo on August 18, 2019, 11:13:28 PM
Also good to know that of the 33 recordings of No. 5 that I could find, three are by Previn, who came back to it in 1988 and 1995. I made a comparison of the timings of the four movements:

Previn / LSO 1971               12.53            05.17            12.19            11.18
Previn / RPO 1988               12.30            05.14            12.57            09.55
Previn / SO Curtis 1995       12.43            05.24            12.08            10.21

I don't know the last of those 3 - I do know the other two.  The RPO version is good.... and can be picked up as a twofer with Previn's No.2 remake very cheaply.... but I'd go for the earlier LSO version every time.  Previn really "got" RVW and of course back in the 70's RCA were using Decca engineers/equipment for their UK recordings and it was at the Kingsway Hall (I'm pretty sure it was there!) so the whole package of performance and technical presentation is top drawer.

I reckon that Previn's laconic humour - honed on Hollywood soundstages - chimed perfectly with British musicians so apart from any musical insights and brilliance he might have undoubtedly brought he was liked as a person and for UK orchestras that goes a long way.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on August 19, 2019, 02:36:40 AM
Seems like he was almost an honorary Englishman, or at least that's how it comes across in this music!

Listening to the 4th symphony now from the same CD. The opening always catches me off guard. Definitely a very different kind of work, but I like it. I am thinking about going for the complete set by Previn with the LSO, as it can be had very cheaply on RCA. I'll check out his 5th symphony and see what I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 19, 2019, 02:55:19 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 19, 2019, 02:36:40 AM
Seems like he was almost an honorary Englishman, or at least that's how it comes across in this music!

Listening to the 4th symphony now from the same CD. The opening always catches me off guard. Definitely a very different kind of work, but I like it. I am thinking about going for the complete set by Previn with the LSO, as it can be had very cheaply on RCA. I'll check out his 5th symphony and see what I think.

you won't go wrong with that set at whatever price.  The expressive range/changes across the 9 symphonies is very marked but I have to say I think they are all rather wonderful ... I hope you enjoy them too
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 19, 2019, 11:55:42 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 19, 2019, 02:55:19 AM
you won't go wrong with that set at whatever price.  The expressive range/changes across the 9 symphonies is very marked but I have to say I think they are all rather wonderful ... I hope you enjoy them too
+1
There, you see, we are agreeing again!
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 29, 2019, 01:53:30 PM
Interesting and unusual forthcoming release:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 30, 2019, 06:57:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2019, 01:53:30 PM
Interesting and unusual forthcoming release:
(//)

Free - I believe - to members of the RVW Society.  Worth joining anyway - excellent organisation but this is a nice added bonus!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on August 30, 2019, 09:46:53 AM
Symphony No. 2 - A London Symphony:

When I initially explored Vaughan Williams' symphonic cycle and failed utterly to appreciate "A Sea Symphony" [something which was ultimately rectified], I immediately found redemption in "A London Symphony" with a work that I could readily comprehend and appreciate. Boult delivers a robust and very atmospheric and appealing performance.


Boult:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)


Boult captures the lyrical opening sequence of the first movement very well; it is a very pastorale like interpretation. Once that sunrise section is complete the city bursts into life. This is reflected in the pace and tone of the music which Boult drives along at a busy pace which is also interspersed with quieter passages. There is a strong, positive conclusion to the opening movement.
The slow movement is poignantly lyrical with occasional lush harmonies. Bould holds back the momentum to great effect whereby the music slowly unveils its beauties. The scoring is wonderful throughout the movement and Boult controls things very well to get the best results from his orchestra.
The Scherzo is delivered in a rather boisterous and buoyant tone and the mood takes a sudden twist at the end of the movement which ends on a somewhat sombre note.
In the final movement the scoring is rich and lush and the music itself is very lyrical. The tone mostly intense with the music being driven. The counterpoint creates some wonderful tensions and drama which Boult depicts well. The movement also contains moments of wonderfully pregnant quieter sections which offer great contrast. The tone is dark, verging on the menacing. The work ends quietly; perhaps a moment of contemplation.





Previn:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)


Previn offers a wonderfully graceful and atmospheric sunrise. Life suddenly erupts with a bang as the city comes to life. Previn's depiction is more picturesque and lyrical initially but soon burst out into a burly, exuberant and turbulent episode which is then followed by the quieter passage which is almost mystical in this presentation with those beguiling woodwinds. There is a robust and spirited conclusion to the first movement with strong brass evident.
There is a strong poignancy depicted in the slow movement but it is also augmented with a somewhat forlorn and disconcerting tone with a tinge of melancholy. Although it is dark the tone does not quite descend into despondency. Previn's presentation is lyrically on the dark side for me and it is quite absorbing. Previn also exploits the dynamic range of this movement to full effect.
The Scherzo is a suitably energetic affair and I like the way that Previn ushers the music in waves, continuously ebbing and flowing,  through the use of the inherent dynamics of the scoring. I also like the way that Previn handles the change in pace and tone at the conclusion of the movement.
The music of the final movement is lush and lyrical and Previn delivers on both counts. The tone is somewhat on the dark side, perhaps more meditative and apprehensive rather than despondent. There then comes that surge in intensity and pace which Previn drives well accentuating the sense of turbulence and uncertainty in a dramatic performance. This sense of apprehension and uncertainty defines the contemplative nature of the conclusion of this fine work.
This is a strong but lyrical and contemplative version of this work and I like Previn's vision of the music.




Barbirolli:



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/911FZ0jKqtL._SY355_.jpg)


Barbirolli's version of the sunrise is expansive and, I feel, somewhat more considered than others that I have heard. Life, once again, erupts with a bang here as the city comes to life. Barbirolli's depiction of a morning bustle of a leading world city is valid and exciting. I like his treatment of the woodwinds: it is somewhat understated and subtle but effective. Those "quieter" passages are handled sensitively and lyrically. The conclusion of the first movement is a big, bold performance.
Barbirolli's slow movement is, for me, a somewhat dark and meditative reading but without being ponderous in any way. There is a delightful ray of sunshine that suddenly emerges towards the conclusion of the movement and we conclude on a positive and more optimistic note.
The Scherzo is a very light and airy affair which is delivered in a very ardent and assertive tone at times for the most part. The scoring for the conclusion is obviously darker in tone and Barbirolli explores these shadows very well.
The final movement is a robust and powerful performance. It is definitely both assertive and atmospheric in its delivery with lots of drama on display. This movement has a fine sense of gravitas and it is gripping, intense and has a strong presence to it.

I have listened to this version relatively recently and listening to it again shortly after listening to the versions under both Boult and Previn I am getting a slightly different "feel" from this Barbirolli version. I have found it to be a somewhat darker and also a more turbulent version than I first thought of it in isolation [which is interesting in itself].

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 30, 2019, 12:54:00 PM
Quote from: aligreto on August 30, 2019, 09:46:53 AM
Symphony No. 2 - A London Symphony:

When I initially explored Vaughan Williams' symphonic cycle and failed utterly to appreciate "A Sea Symphony" [something which was ultimately rectified], I immediately found redemption in "A London Symphony" with a work that I could readily comprehend and appreciate. Boult delivers a robust and very atmospheric and appealing performance.


Boult:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)


Boult captures the lyrical opening sequence of the first movement very well; it is a very pastorale like interpretation. Once that sunrise section is complete the city bursts into life. This is reflected in the pace and tone of the music which Boult drives along at a busy pace which is also interspersed with quieter passages. There is a strong, positive conclusion to the opening movement.
The slow movement is poignantly lyrical with occasional lush harmonies. Bould holds back the momentum to great effect whereby the music slowly unveils its beauties. The scoring is wonderful throughout the movement and Boult controls things very well to get the best results from his orchestra.
The Scherzo is delivered in a rather boisterous and buoyant tone and the mood takes a sudden twist at the end of the movement which ends on a somewhat sombre note.
In the final movement the scoring is rich and lush and the music itself is very lyrical. The tone mostly intense with the music being driven. The counterpoint creates some wonderful tensions and drama which Boult depicts well. The movement also contains moments of wonderfully pregnant quieter sections which offer great contrast. The tone is dark, verging on the menacing. The work ends quietly; perhaps a moment of contemplation.





Previn:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)


Previn offers a wonderfully graceful and atmospheric sunrise. Life suddenly erupts with a bang as the city comes to life. Previn's depiction is more picturesque and lyrical initially but soon burst out into a burly, exuberant and turbulent episode which is then followed by the quieter passage which is almost mystical in this presentation with those beguiling woodwinds. There is a robust and spirited conclusion to the first movement with strong brass evident.
There is a strong poignancy depicted in the slow movement but it is also augmented with a somewhat forlorn and disconcerting tone with a tinge of melancholy. Although it is dark the tone does not quite descend into despondency. Previn's presentation is lyrically on the dark side for me and it is quite absorbing. Previn also exploits the dynamic range of this movement to full effect.
The Scherzo is a suitably energetic affair and I like the way that Previn ushers the music in waves, continuously ebbing and flowing,  through the use of the inherent dynamics of the scoring. I also like the way that Previn handles the change in pace and tone at the conclusion of the movement.
The music of the final movement is lush and lyrical and Previn delivers on both counts. The tone is somewhat on the dark side, perhaps more meditative and apprehensive rather than despondent. There then comes that surge in intensity and pace which Previn drives well accentuating the sense of turbulence and uncertainty in a dramatic performance. This sense of apprehension and uncertainty defines the contemplative nature of the conclusion of this fine work.
This is a strong but lyrical and contemplative version of this work and I like Previn's vision of the music.




Barbirolli:



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/911FZ0jKqtL._SY355_.jpg)


Barbirolli's version of the sunrise is expansive and, I feel, somewhat more considered than others that I have heard. Life, once again, erupts with a bang here as the city comes to life. Barbirolli's depiction of a morning bustle of a leading world city is valid and exciting. I like his treatment of the woodwinds: it is somewhat understated and subtle but effective. Those "quieter" passages are handled sensitively and lyrically. The conclusion of the first movement is a big, bold performance.
Barbirolli's slow movement is, for me, a somewhat dark and meditative reading but without being ponderous in any way. There is a delightful ray of sunshine that suddenly emerges towards the conclusion of the movement and we conclude on a positive and more optimistic note.
The Scherzo is a very light and airy affair which is delivered in a very ardent and assertive tone at times for the most part. The scoring for the conclusion is obviously darker in tone and Barbirolli explores these shadows very well.
The final movement is a robust and powerful performance. It is definitely both assertive and atmospheric in its delivery with lots of drama on display. This movement has a fine sense of gravitas and it is gripping, intense and has a strong presence to it.

I have listened to this version relatively recently and listening to it again shortly after listening to the versions under both Boult and Previn I am getting a slightly different "feel" from this Barbirolli version. I have found it to be a somewhat darker and also a more turbulent version than I first thought of it in isolation [which is interesting in itself].

Fantastic description! Very interesting to read.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 30, 2019, 02:23:41 PM
Thanks for those reviews SymphonicAddict, very interesting. And those are all great recordings.
In fact I was just thinking that Vaughan Williams is one of those composers who seems to bring out the best in conductors, I've heard almost no poor performances of Vaughan Williams' symphonies on disk. His is not the sort of music where conductors have to really work hard to make it work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 30, 2019, 03:06:03 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 30, 2019, 02:23:41 PM
Thanks for those reviews SymphonicAddict, very interesting. And those are all great recordings.
In fact I was just thinking that Vaughan Williams is one of those composers who seems to bring out the best in conductors, I've heard almost no poor performances of Vaughan Williams' symphonies on disk. His is not the sort of music where conductors have to really work hard to make it work.

The author of those reviews is aligreto, not me, so the gratefulness goes for him.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 30, 2019, 03:51:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2019, 01:53:30 PM
Interesting and unusual forthcoming release:
(//)

Albion's Journey: Will it be a documentary about him? or, a new work, or a compilation of them?

Edit: Taken from the RVW Society webpage.

https://rvwsociety.com/albions-journey/

"By popular demand, the album begins with the first recording of The Robin's Nest, which is the first piece known to have been written by Vaughan Williams, in his sixth year."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 31, 2019, 01:13:01 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on August 30, 2019, 03:06:03 PM
The author of those reviews is aligreto, not me, so the gratefulness goes for him.  ;)

Sorry aligreto.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 31, 2019, 01:19:21 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 30, 2019, 06:57:30 AM
Free - I believe - to members of the RVW Society.  Worth joining anyway - excellent organisation but this is a nice added bonus!
That's good news as I'm a member of the society! Thanks. I must cancel my pre-order with Amazon. You've just saved me £8.99  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 31, 2019, 01:24:59 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on August 30, 2019, 03:51:26 PM
Albion's Journey: Will it be a documentary about him? or, a new work, or a compilation of them?

Edit: Taken from the RVW Society webpage.

https://rvwsociety.com/albions-journey/

"By popular demand, the album begins with the first recording of The Robin's Nest, which is the first piece known to have been written by Vaughan Williams, in his sixth year."

A CD with his music interspersed with extracts of the composer talking about his life and the music of others. It includes the first recording of 'The Robin's Nest', his first composition, aged six I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 31, 2019, 01:28:45 PM
Quote from: aligreto on August 30, 2019, 09:46:53 AM
Symphony No. 2 - A London Symphony:

When I initially explored Vaughan Williams' symphonic cycle and failed utterly to appreciate "A Sea Symphony" [something which was ultimately rectified], I immediately found redemption in "A London Symphony" with a work that I could readily comprehend and appreciate. Boult delivers a robust and very atmospheric and appealing performance.


Boult:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)


Boult captures the lyrical opening sequence of the first movement very well; it is a very pastorale like interpretation. Once that sunrise section is complete the city bursts into life. This is reflected in the pace and tone of the music which Boult drives along at a busy pace which is also interspersed with quieter passages. There is a strong, positive conclusion to the opening movement.
The slow movement is poignantly lyrical with occasional lush harmonies. Bould holds back the momentum to great effect whereby the music slowly unveils its beauties. The scoring is wonderful throughout the movement and Boult controls things very well to get the best results from his orchestra.
The Scherzo is delivered in a rather boisterous and buoyant tone and the mood takes a sudden twist at the end of the movement which ends on a somewhat sombre note.
In the final movement the scoring is rich and lush and the music itself is very lyrical. The tone mostly intense with the music being driven. The counterpoint creates some wonderful tensions and drama which Boult depicts well. The movement also contains moments of wonderfully pregnant quieter sections which offer great contrast. The tone is dark, verging on the menacing. The work ends quietly; perhaps a moment of contemplation.





Previn:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)


Previn offers a wonderfully graceful and atmospheric sunrise. Life suddenly erupts with a bang as the city comes to life. Previn's depiction is more picturesque and lyrical initially but soon burst out into a burly, exuberant and turbulent episode which is then followed by the quieter passage which is almost mystical in this presentation with those beguiling woodwinds. There is a robust and spirited conclusion to the first movement with strong brass evident.
There is a strong poignancy depicted in the slow movement but it is also augmented with a somewhat forlorn and disconcerting tone with a tinge of melancholy. Although it is dark the tone does not quite descend into despondency. Previn's presentation is lyrically on the dark side for me and it is quite absorbing. Previn also exploits the dynamic range of this movement to full effect.
The Scherzo is a suitably energetic affair and I like the way that Previn ushers the music in waves, continuously ebbing and flowing,  through the use of the inherent dynamics of the scoring. I also like the way that Previn handles the change in pace and tone at the conclusion of the movement.
The music of the final movement is lush and lyrical and Previn delivers on both counts. The tone is somewhat on the dark side, perhaps more meditative and apprehensive rather than despondent. There then comes that surge in intensity and pace which Previn drives well accentuating the sense of turbulence and uncertainty in a dramatic performance. This sense of apprehension and uncertainty defines the contemplative nature of the conclusion of this fine work.
This is a strong but lyrical and contemplative version of this work and I like Previn's vision of the music.




Barbirolli:



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/911FZ0jKqtL._SY355_.jpg)


Barbirolli's version of the sunrise is expansive and, I feel, somewhat more considered than others that I have heard. Life, once again, erupts with a bang here as the city comes to life. Barbirolli's depiction of a morning bustle of a leading world city is valid and exciting. I like his treatment of the woodwinds: it is somewhat understated and subtle but effective. Those "quieter" passages are handled sensitively and lyrically. The conclusion of the first movement is a big, bold performance.
Barbirolli's slow movement is, for me, a somewhat dark and meditative reading but without being ponderous in any way. There is a delightful ray of sunshine that suddenly emerges towards the conclusion of the movement and we conclude on a positive and more optimistic note.
The Scherzo is a very light and airy affair which is delivered in a very ardent and assertive tone at times for the most part. The scoring for the conclusion is obviously darker in tone and Barbirolli explores these shadows very well.
The final movement is a robust and powerful performance. It is definitely both assertive and atmospheric in its delivery with lots of drama on display. This movement has a fine sense of gravitas and it is gripping, intense and has a strong presence to it.

I have listened to this version relatively recently and listening to it again shortly after listening to the versions under both Boult and Previn I am getting a slightly different "feel" from this Barbirolli version. I have found it to be a somewhat darker and also a more turbulent version than I first thought of it in isolation [which is interesting in itself].
A fabulous comparative analysis of three great recordings Fergus. I would also add Boult's later EMI recording, with which I grew up (I had the Boult LP set when I was 17). I tend to listen mainly to the 1920 version now (Goossens, Yates or Brabbins):
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on September 01, 2019, 05:09:05 AM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on August 30, 2019, 12:54:00 PM
Fantastic description! Very interesting to read.


Quote from: vandermolen on August 31, 2019, 01:28:45 PM
A fabulous comparative analysis of three great recordings Fergus. I would also add Boult's later EMI recording, with which I grew up (I had the Boult LP set when I was 17). I tend to listen mainly to the 1920 version now (Goossens, Yates or Brabbins):



Thank you guys but modesty forces me to reject the high praise. I merely say it as I hear it  :-[
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on September 01, 2019, 05:15:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 31, 2019, 01:28:45 PM
.... I would also add Boult's later EMI recording, with which I grew up (I had the Boult LP set when I was 17). I tend to listen mainly to the 1920 version now (Goossens, Yates or Brabbins):

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=59867;image)


Thank you for that Jeffrey. I obviously do not have that version in my collection nor have I heard it. It would make for an interesting comparative listening session I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on September 01, 2019, 05:26:55 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 31, 2019, 01:13:01 PM
Sorry aligreto.

No apology required. It was a genuine mistake. There was no offence meant and certainly none taken. I am just glad that you enjoyed the read.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2019, 11:01:49 AM
Quote from: aligreto on September 01, 2019, 05:15:54 AM
Thank you for that Jeffrey. I obviously do not have that version in my collection nor have I heard it. It would make for an interesting comparative listening session I think.
My pleasure Fergus. The LP/CD are available fairly inexpensively on Amazon UK if you want to hear this fine performance:

(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 01, 2019, 11:35:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 31, 2019, 01:28:45 PM
A fabulous comparative analysis of three great recordings Fergus. I would also add Boult's later EMI recording, with which I grew up (I had the Boult LP set when I was 17). I tend to listen mainly to the 1920 version now (Goossens, Yates or Brabbins):

I recently got disproportionately pleased to track down/buy a copy of the 1920 version score.  This was the 1st version of the symphony to be published as part of the "Carnegie Collection of British Music" - and rare to buy now.  So I was a little miffed when it arrived to see a small "revised edition" printed on the front cover that I had missed.  Basically Stainer & Bell - the publisher of the 'final'/standard revision had knicked the artwork of the 1920 Carnegie edition and used it for their more recent version. My fault for not spotting that on the photo so I had to keep it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on September 01, 2019, 12:59:43 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2019, 11:01:49 AM
My pleasure Fergus. The LP/CD are available fairly inexpensively on Amazon UK if you want to hear this fine performance:

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=59881;image)

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=59883;image)

Thank you for the recommendations Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on September 01, 2019, 01:02:14 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 01, 2019, 11:35:23 AM
I recently got disproportionately pleased to track down/buy a copy of the 1920 version score.  This was the 1st version of the symphony to be published as part of the "Carnegie Collection of British Music" - and rare to buy now.  So I was a little miffed when it arrived to see a small "revised edition" printed on the front cover that I had missed.  Basically Stainer & Bell - the publisher of the 'final'/standard revision had knicked the artwork of the 1920 Carnegie edition and used it for their more recent version. My fault for not spotting that on the photo so I had to keep it!

We are all guilty from time to time of lapses in attention to detail. Some are more costly than others. We live and learn, hopefully, and move on.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 03, 2019, 02:53:05 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 01, 2019, 11:35:23 AM
I recently got disproportionately pleased to track down/buy a copy of the 1920 version score.  This was the 1st version of the symphony to be published as part of the "Carnegie Collection of British Music" - and rare to buy now.  So I was a little miffed when it arrived to see a small "revised edition" printed on the front cover that I had missed.  Basically Stainer & Bell - the publisher of the 'final'/standard revision had knicked the artwork of the 1920 Carnegie edition and used it for their more recent version. My fault for not spotting that on the photo so I had to keep it!
That must have been very annoying I'm sure. I once bought a copy of 'Dona Nobis Pacem' by Vaughan Williams on LP whilst visiting a friend in Manchester (I was then living in London). It was a second hand version with Maurice Abravanel conducting the Utah SO and was my first contact with that fine work. However I didn't  bother to check if they had put the right vinyl in the sleeve and it was only when I got on the train to return to London, when I thought I should check the condition of the LP, that, to my horror, I discovered that it contained an LP featuring Schubert's 'Trout Quintet'! I had to take a flying leap off the train just before it was about to move out of the station.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 03, 2019, 09:28:26 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 03, 2019, 02:53:05 AM
That must have been very annoying I'm sure. I once bought a copy of 'Dona Nobis Pacem' by Vaughan Williams on LP whilst visiting a friend in Manchester (I was then living in London). It was a second hand version with Maurice Abravanel conducting the Utah SO and was my first contact with that fine work. However I didn't  bother to check if they had put the right vinyl in the sleeve and it was only when I got on the train to return to London, when I thought I should check the condition of the LP, that, to my horror, I discovered that it contained an LP featuring Schubert's 'Trout Quintet'! I had to take a flying leap off the train just before it was about to move out of the station.
Schubert offers sufficient justification to even jump out of a moving train. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 03, 2019, 01:38:43 PM
Quote from: Christo on September 03, 2019, 09:28:26 AM
Schubert offers sufficient justification to even jump out of a moving train. 8)
8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on September 03, 2019, 02:03:39 PM
Quote from: aligreto on August 30, 2019, 09:46:53 AM
Symphony No. 2 - A London Symphony:

When I initially explored Vaughan Williams' symphonic cycle and failed utterly to appreciate "A Sea Symphony" [something which was ultimately rectified], I immediately found redemption in "A London Symphony" with a work that I could readily comprehend and appreciate. Boult delivers a robust and very atmospheric and appealing performance.


Boult:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)


Boult captures the lyrical opening sequence of the first movement very well; it is a very pastorale like interpretation. Once that sunrise section is complete the city bursts into life. This is reflected in the pace and tone of the music which Boult drives along at a busy pace which is also interspersed with quieter passages. There is a strong, positive conclusion to the opening movement.
The slow movement is poignantly lyrical with occasional lush harmonies. Bould holds back the momentum to great effect whereby the music slowly unveils its beauties. The scoring is wonderful throughout the movement and Boult controls things very well to get the best results from his orchestra.
The Scherzo is delivered in a rather boisterous and buoyant tone and the mood takes a sudden twist at the end of the movement which ends on a somewhat sombre note.
In the final movement the scoring is rich and lush and the music itself is very lyrical. The tone mostly intense with the music being driven. The counterpoint creates some wonderful tensions and drama which Boult depicts well. The movement also contains moments of wonderfully pregnant quieter sections which offer great contrast. The tone is dark, verging on the menacing. The work ends quietly; perhaps a moment of contemplation.





Previn:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)


Previn offers a wonderfully graceful and atmospheric sunrise. Life suddenly erupts with a bang as the city comes to life. Previn's depiction is more picturesque and lyrical initially but soon burst out into a burly, exuberant and turbulent episode which is then followed by the quieter passage which is almost mystical in this presentation with those beguiling woodwinds. There is a robust and spirited conclusion to the first movement with strong brass evident.
There is a strong poignancy depicted in the slow movement but it is also augmented with a somewhat forlorn and disconcerting tone with a tinge of melancholy. Although it is dark the tone does not quite descend into despondency. Previn's presentation is lyrically on the dark side for me and it is quite absorbing. Previn also exploits the dynamic range of this movement to full effect.
The Scherzo is a suitably energetic affair and I like the way that Previn ushers the music in waves, continuously ebbing and flowing,  through the use of the inherent dynamics of the scoring. I also like the way that Previn handles the change in pace and tone at the conclusion of the movement.
The music of the final movement is lush and lyrical and Previn delivers on both counts. The tone is somewhat on the dark side, perhaps more meditative and apprehensive rather than despondent. There then comes that surge in intensity and pace which Previn drives well accentuating the sense of turbulence and uncertainty in a dramatic performance. This sense of apprehension and uncertainty defines the contemplative nature of the conclusion of this fine work.
This is a strong but lyrical and contemplative version of this work and I like Previn's vision of the music.




Barbirolli:



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/911FZ0jKqtL._SY355_.jpg)


Barbirolli's version of the sunrise is expansive and, I feel, somewhat more considered than others that I have heard. Life, once again, erupts with a bang here as the city comes to life. Barbirolli's depiction of a morning bustle of a leading world city is valid and exciting. I like his treatment of the woodwinds: it is somewhat understated and subtle but effective. Those "quieter" passages are handled sensitively and lyrically. The conclusion of the first movement is a big, bold performance.
Barbirolli's slow movement is, for me, a somewhat dark and meditative reading but without being ponderous in any way. There is a delightful ray of sunshine that suddenly emerges towards the conclusion of the movement and we conclude on a positive and more optimistic note.
The Scherzo is a very light and airy affair which is delivered in a very ardent and assertive tone at times for the most part. The scoring for the conclusion is obviously darker in tone and Barbirolli explores these shadows very well.
The final movement is a robust and powerful performance. It is definitely both assertive and atmospheric in its delivery with lots of drama on display. This movement has a fine sense of gravitas and it is gripping, intense and has a strong presence to it.

I have listened to this version relatively recently and listening to it again shortly after listening to the versions under both Boult and Previn I am getting a slightly different "feel" from this Barbirolli version. I have found it to be a somewhat darker and also a more turbulent version than I first thought of it in isolation [which is interesting in itself].

Due to all the difficulties we are suffering here at present I have only just read your excellent survey of "London" - I always think of dawn at Hammersmith for some reason at the opening. I may well change my mind at a later date but I listened to the Previn recording over the weekend and came to the conclusion that this is the recording I enjoy most of this particular symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 03, 2019, 03:07:22 PM
Quote from: Christo on September 03, 2019, 09:28:26 AM
Schubert offers sufficient justification to even jump out of a moving train. 8)

-1  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on September 04, 2019, 02:04:30 AM
Quote from: Irons on September 03, 2019, 02:03:39 PM
Due to all the difficulties we are suffering here at present I have only just read your excellent survey of "London" - I always think of dawn at Hammersmith for some reason at the opening. I may well change my mind at a later date but I listened to the Previn recording over the weekend and came to the conclusion that this is the recording I enjoy most of this particular symphony.

You'd be hard-pressed to hear the chimes of Big Ben from Hammersmith, even in the relative quiet of Edwardian London I'm guessing.  But then - dawn at Hammersmith is a very fine thing to contemplate, whatever prompted it.

Of the recordings of the London Symphony that I've listened to, the suprise package is Kees Bakels, I remember liking that a lot and must listen again (today, perhaps) to remind myself why.  Also, about 20 pages back in this thread, I remember Handley getting a lot of love.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on September 06, 2019, 03:28:51 AM
Well, Bakels

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515Xl90IPhL.jpg)

He adopts very broad tempi in the outer movements - not as slow as Haitink but slower than Handley and Elder and similar to Barbirolli.  In the Lento the music creeps along almost static and indeed there is a pause at the 'climax' as the world seems to stand still - waiting for Big Ben to drop the other shoe perhaps, which of course it never does in this music.
Somehow, listening to this version, I heard it more as slabs of sound and less as tone poems.  Almost Brucknerian, also pre-echoing the Antartica a little.
The recording is very good - as good as anything I've heard on the Naxos label - and the final climax (just before the reprise of Big Ben) is shattering, far more so than with Haitink who I sampled to compare just this bit immediately afterwards.  [belated edit to add though, that this Bournemouth SO (date 1993) is perhaps not quite a match for the golden age BSO of the Berglund era]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 11, 2019, 10:34:59 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 06, 2019, 03:28:51 AM
Well, Bakels

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515Xl90IPhL.jpg)

He adopts very broad tempi in the outer movements - not as slow as Haitink but slower than Handley and Elder and similar to Barbirolli.  In the Lento the music creeps along almost static and indeed there is a pause at the 'climax' as the world seems to stand still - waiting for Big Ben to drop the other shoe perhaps, which of course it never does in this music.
Somehow, listening to this version, I heard it more as slabs of sound and less as tone poems.  Almost Brucknerian, also pre-echoing the Antartica a little.
The recording is very good - as good as anything I've heard on the Naxos label - and the final climax (just before the reprise of Big Ben) is shattering, far more so than with Haitink who I sampled to compare just this bit immediately afterwards.  [belated edit to add though, that this Bournemouth SO (date 1993) is perhaps not quite a match for the golden age BSO of the Berglund era]

I love that recording of the No. 2. The 2nd and 4th movements are splendid and even better than in other recordings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on September 20, 2019, 09:04:49 AM
Vaughan Williams: A Pastoral Symphony


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)    (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)


I have recently posted the above two versions in the Listening thread. This is not a direct A/B comparison between the only two versions of this symphony that I own but rather a personal analysis and comment on the work itself based on what I have heard from these two presentations.


The music in this rambling, meandering work has a late 19th century flavour to it, especially in the first movement. The first movement could be taken for a Pastorale given its flowing lyricism but there is something unquiet about it, something slightly disconcerting about it which suspends any sense of serenity. I particularly like the use of woodwinds in the scoring which adds the forlorn sentiment.
The slow movement is a very low key affair and the tone is one of plaintive melancholy. The horn at the beginning of the movement sets the tone for the movement. I find that the trumpet motif is reminiscent of the Last Post.
The third movement opens with great optimism and a blaze of glory but soon recedes into the prevailing tone of meditative melancholy and introspection. In this movement I found Previn to be more upbeat than Boult.
The haunting soprano vocalize in the final movement is a very powerful statement. I also get a very strong sense of yearning throughout the final movement.

To me this work has more of a Requiem feel to it rather than a plaintive Pastoral. Given that it was written in France during WW1 perhaps it is a Requiem for a pre-war pastoral nostalgia or a Requiem for the hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers that Vaughan Williams saw during the course of the war, or indeed both? Either way, I do find this to be a powerful, an intriguing and a very enjoyable work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 20, 2019, 10:26:28 AM
Quote from: aligreto on September 20, 2019, 09:04:49 AM
Vaughan Williams: A Pastoral Symphony


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)    (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)


I have recently posted the above two versions in the Listening thread. This is not a direct A/B comparison between the only two versions of this symphony that I own but rather a personal analysis and comment on the work itself based on what I have heard from these two presentations.


The music in this rambling, meandering work has a late 19th century flavour to it, especially in the first movement. The first movement could be taken for a Pastorale given its flowing lyricism but there is something unquiet about it, something slightly disconcerting about it which suspends any sense of serenity. I particularly like the use of woodwinds in the scoring which adds the forlorn sentiment.
The slow movement is a very low key affair and the tone is one of plaintive melancholy. The horn at the beginning of the movement sets the tone for the movement. I find that the trumpet motif is reminiscent of the Last Post.
The third movement opens with great optimism and a blaze of glory but soon recedes into the prevailing tone of meditative melancholy and introspection. In this movement I found Previn to be more upbeat than Boult.
The haunting soprano vocalize in the final movement is a very powerful statement. I also get a very strong sense of yearning throughout the final movement.

To me this work has more of a Requiem feel to it rather than a plaintive Pastoral. Given that it was written in France during WW1 perhaps it is a Requiem for a pre-war pastoral nostalgia or a Requiem for the hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers that Vaughan Williams saw during the course of the war, or indeed both? Either way, I do find this to be a powerful, an intriguing and a very enjoyable work.
Great review Fergus. Those early Boult performances are very special. Friends of mine had the Decca Eclipse LP of symphonies 3 and 5 in Exeter during my teacher training course. We listened to it over and over again, along with their other Vaughan Williams recording - Boult's later EMI LP of Sinfonia Antartica - another fine recording. Previn remains my favourite version of 'A Pastoral Symphony' and 'A London Symphony' (1936 version) together with Boult's EMI recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on September 20, 2019, 10:43:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 20, 2019, 10:26:28 AM
Great review Fergus. Those early Boult performances are very special. Friends of mine had the Decca Eclipse LP of symphonies 3 and 5 in Exeter during my teacher training course. We listened to it over and over again, along with their other Vaughan Williams recording - Boult's later EMI LP of Sinfonia Antartica - another fine recording. Previn remains my favourite version of 'A Pastoral Symphony' and 'A London Symphony' (1936 version) together with Boult's EMI recording.

Thank you Jeffrey.
I am open minded and open to any recommendations but both Boult and Previn have served me very well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 20, 2019, 10:51:09 AM
Quote from: aligreto on September 20, 2019, 10:43:33 AM
Thank you Jeffrey.
I am open minded and open to any recommendations but both Boult and Previn have served me very well.
Me too Fergus!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on October 03, 2019, 08:26:34 AM
Symphony No. 4:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)    (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)



I find that this work to have a distinctive sound world of its own which is powerful, harsh, full of energy and dissonance and even has a violent undercurrent in its musical language. The work is very well scored and has some very fine writing for strings. To me, the music is dark, harsh and unyielding but it is always very enjoyable and engaging. For me, Boult provides the darker and more spirited version while Previn offers different insights into the work which are perhaps lighter in both touch and interpretation. Either way, both are most enjoyable and engaging versions of this work.


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 03, 2019, 11:45:36 PM
Quote from: aligreto on October 03, 2019, 08:26:34 AM
Symphony No. 4:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)    (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)



I find that this work to have a distinctive sound world of its own which is powerful, harsh, full of energy and dissonance and even has a violent undercurrent in its musical language. The work is very well scored and has some very fine writing for strings. To me, the music is dark, harsh and unyielding but it is always very enjoyable and engaging. For me, Boult provides the darker and more spirited version while Previn offers different insights into the work which are perhaps lighter in both touch and interpretation. Either way, both are most enjoyable and engaging versions of this work.
Think you're right about the Boult/Previn differences Fergus. Critics tend to suggest that Boult's performance is blunted by the age of the recording (I think that his EMI recording is better in this respect) and that the Previn is the least successful of his cycle. If you want a more powerful, modern recording I'd look out for the one by Berglund which is my favourite.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on October 05, 2019, 06:59:20 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2019, 11:45:36 PM
Think you're right about the Boult/Previn differences Fergus. Critics tend to suggest that Boult's performance is blunted by the age of the recording (I think that his EMI recording is better in this respect) and that the Previn is the least successful of his cycle. If you want a more powerful, modern recording I'd look out for the one by Berglund which is my favourite.

Cheers Jeffrey. I am one who would never hold "the age of the recording" against a recording as the "performance" is of critical importance to me. I was not aware of the EMI recording. How does it compare with the Decca version in terms of interpretation and performance?
Thank you for the recommendation of the Berglund.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 05, 2019, 07:12:34 AM
Quote from: aligreto on October 05, 2019, 06:59:20 AM
Cheers Jeffrey. I am one who would never hold "the age of the recording" against a recording as the "performance" is of critical importance to me. I was not aware of the EMI recording. How does it compare with the Decca version in terms of interpretation and performance?
Thank you for the recommendation of the Berglund.

Boult recorded No 6 twice for EMI - in 1949 with the LSO and in 1967 with the New Philharmonia Orchestra. If you are not worried about the age of the recording the 1949 version is the one to have. For me it is the best recording of No 6. After Boult had recorded it RVW revised the Scherzo and Boult re-recorded it. The Dutton album includes both versions.

Previn's No 4 was the very first RVW symphony I ever bought and I only saw the lukewarm reviews quite some time after; I have never paid much attention to them. The first version of No 6 I acquired was Boult/New Philharmonia. Not long afterwards someone supposedly in the know told me that Previn was the one for 'the fireworks' (nos 4 & 6) and Boult was a bit low key. Again, I didn't let that worry me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on October 05, 2019, 07:53:07 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 05, 2019, 07:12:34 AM
Boult recorded No 6 twice for EMI - in 1949 with the LSO and in 1967 with the New Philharmonia Orchestra. If you are not worried about the age of the recording the 1949 version is the one to have. For me it is the best recording of No 6. After Boult had recorded it RVW revised the Scherzo and Boult re-recorded it. The Dutton album includes both versions.

Previn's No 4 was the very first RVW symphony I ever bought and I only saw the lukewarm reviews quite some time after; I have never paid much attention to them. The first version of No 6 I acquired was Boult/New Philharmonia. Not long afterwards someone supposedly in the know told me that Previn was the one for 'the fireworks' (nos 4 & 6) and Boult was a bit low key. Again, I didn't let that worry me.

Thank you for the information and recommendations. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 06, 2019, 02:56:44 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 05, 2019, 07:12:34 AM
Boult recorded No 6 twice for EMI - in 1949 with the LSO and in 1967 with the New Philharmonia Orchestra. If you are not worried about the age of the recording the 1949 version is the one to have. For me it is the best recording of No 6. After Boult had recorded it RVW revised the Scherzo and Boult re-recorded it. The Dutton album includes both versions.

Previn's No 4 was the very first RVW symphony I ever bought and I only saw the lukewarm reviews quite some time after; I have never paid much attention to them. The first version of No 6 I acquired was Boult/New Philharmonia. Not long afterwards someone supposedly in the know told me that Previn was the one for 'the fireworks' (nos 4 & 6) and Boult was a bit low key. Again, I didn't let that worry me.

to follow up on Biffo's recommendation - the Dutton version is one they are selling off in their sale (on the Dutton website) for 99p + p&p
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 06, 2019, 06:58:23 AM
Quote from: aligreto on October 05, 2019, 06:59:20 AM
Cheers Jeffrey. I am one who would never hold "the age of the recording" against a recording as the "performance" is of critical importance to me. I was not aware of the EMI recording. How does it compare with the Decca version in terms of interpretation and performance?
Thank you for the recommendation of the Berglund.
I largely agree with you Fergus as I rather like 'historical performances' like those early Boult ones (EMI and Decca) of Symphony 6. As far as I recall Boult's EMI recording of Symphony 4 is as powerful as his earlier Decca recording but in better sound. 2,4 and 9 are my favourites from the EMI set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on October 08, 2019, 08:58:57 AM
Symphony No. 5:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)    (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)



Boult:

The wonderful pastoral opening movement, Preludio, is very lyrically played under Boult. The strings really sing out. The mood and tone, in general, is peaceful and serene. As with any sunny day in this part of the world dark clouds do sometimes appear, here in the form dissonant passages or in an increase in tempo. However, those clouds do drift away returning us to a calm and restful place. Although the strings are prominent the scoring is rich and sonorous throughout the movement. The pace is relaxed and restful.
The second movement, Scherzo, is an edgy and an appropriately somewhat whimsical affair. I feel that the movement does have something of a darker undercurrent to it which makes for all the more interesting listening.
The slow movement, Romanza, opens with a very poignant air played by a cor anglais which is then taken up by the strings. This air of poignancy is enhanced by the further use of the woodwinds. The tempo is slow and the mood is also pensive. The cor anglais reappears from time to time singing a delicate, somewhat forlorn air. Once again the music is permeated by a darker hued yearning throughout this movement.
The final movement, Passacaglia, is oftentimes a more ardent and assertive proclamation of the lyrically pastoral yet slightly disconcerting theme that runs throughout the work. The mood is pensive throughout the movement and it concludes with something of an air of resignation.

This is a richly melodic and lyrical work which nonetheless has a dark yet enchanting side to it. It is given a wonderfully sensitive, atmospheric and a sometimes haunting presentation by Boult.



Previn:

The wonderful pastoral opening movement, Preludio, is also very lyrically played under Previn. The strings really sing out here also. The mood and tone, in general, is also peaceful and serene. Previn also captures those darker moments very well. I like the treatment of the woodwinds and brass in the Previn version of the first movement. The mood, tone and pace also reflect serenity in this music. This is very fine music making.
The second movement, Scherzo, is, for me, less "edgy" and more rounded than the Boult version but not by a huge amount. The "feel" is different however.
The slow movement, Romanza, is a really subdued and low key affair and offers a very interesting tonal interpretation, for me, to the Boult version; more lyrical than poignant.
The final movement, Passacaglia, is a bit more celebratory in tone to me than the Boult version; more upbeat and positive in tone, even if it has those darker moments inherent in the music are still there. I also find that there is less of an air of resignation in the Previn version compared with the Boult version; more an air of quiet finality.

For me, this is a less dark interpretation and a more lyrical a more serene version of this wonderful work.


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 08, 2019, 11:45:41 PM
Quote from: aligreto on October 08, 2019, 08:58:57 AM
Symphony No. 5:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)    (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)



Boult:

The wonderful pastoral opening movement, Preludio, is very lyrically played under Boult. The strings really sing out. The mood and tone, in general, is peaceful and serene. As with any sunny day in this part of the world dark clouds do sometimes appear, here in the form dissonant passages or in an increase in tempo. However, those clouds do drift away returning us to a calm and restful place. Although the strings are prominent the scoring is rich and sonorous throughout the movement. The pace is relaxed and restful.
The second movement, Scherzo, is an edgy and an appropriately somewhat whimsical affair. I feel that the movement does have something of a darker undercurrent to it which makes for all the more interesting listening.
The slow movement, Romanza, opens with a very poignant air played by a cor anglais which is then taken up by the strings. This air of poignancy is enhanced by the further use of the woodwinds. The tempo is slow and the mood is also pensive. The cor anglais reappears from time to time singing a delicate, somewhat forlorn air. Once again the music is permeated by a darker hued yearning throughout this movement.
The final movement, Passacaglia, is oftentimes a more ardent and assertive proclamation of the lyrically pastoral yet slightly disconcerting theme that runs throughout the work. The mood is pensive throughout the movement and it concludes with something of an air of resignation.

This is a richly melodic and lyrical work which nonetheless has a dark yet enchanting side to it. It is given a wonderfully sensitive, atmospheric and a sometimes haunting presentation by Boult.



Previn:

The wonderful pastoral opening movement, Preludio, is also very lyrically played under Previn. The strings really sing out here also. The mood and tone, in general, is also peaceful and serene. Previn also captures those darker moments very well. I like the treatment of the woodwinds and brass in the Previn version of the first movement. The mood, tone and pace also reflect serenity in this music. This is very fine music making.
The second movement, Scherzo, is, for me, less "edgy" and more rounded than the Boult version but not by a huge amount. The "feel" is different however.
The slow movement, Romanza, is a really subdued and low key affair and offers a very interesting tonal interpretation, for me, to the Boult version; more lyrical than poignant.
The final movement, Passacaglia, is a bit more celebratory in tone to me than the Boult version; more upbeat and positive in tone, even if it has those darker moments inherent in the music are still there. I also find that there is less of an air of resignation in the Previn version compared with the Boult version; more an air of quiet finality.

For me, this is a less dark interpretation and a more lyrical a more serene version of this wonderful work.
A nice comparative analysis Fergus - encouraging me to listen to these performances again. There is a wonderful version conducted by the composer which only came to light a few years ago:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on October 09, 2019, 08:01:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 08, 2019, 11:45:41 PM
A nice comparative analysis Fergus - encouraging me to listen to these performances again. There is a wonderful version conducted by the composer which only came to light a few years ago:

(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=60382;image)


That is interesting Jeffrey; thank you for the information and recommendation.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 10, 2019, 11:03:45 PM
Listened to this last night with much pleasure. I've never heard of Mason Bates, who is apparently a DJ turned classical composer. I enjoyed his work and will look out to more of his music. Both works are united by settings of Walt Whitman. At first I thought the VW sounded a bit underpowered but I increasingly enjoyed it and was as moved by the end as after any other performance:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2019, 02:07:53 AM
VW's 147th birthday today:
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on October 12, 2019, 11:20:46 AM
Thanks for the reminder, Vandermolen.  I think I will listen to VW quite a bit today!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2019, 03:26:43 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on October 12, 2019, 11:20:46 AM
Thanks for the reminder, Vandermolen.  I think I will listen to VW quite a bit today!  :)
Pleased to hear it  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 13, 2019, 02:58:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2019, 02:07:53 AM
VW's 147th birthday today:


Nice photo, Jeffrey. A statue of him resides at the entrance to Dorking Halls. As you know he had quite an attachment to Dorking.

(http://dorkingmuseum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/statue-of-vaughan-williams.jpeg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 13, 2019, 10:28:26 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 13, 2019, 02:58:16 AM
Nice photo, Jeffrey. A statue of him resides at the entrance to Dorking Halls. As you know he had quite an attachment to Dorking.

(http://dorkingmuseum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/statue-of-vaughan-williams.jpeg)

Thanks Lol. I have to say that I find the Dorking sculpture a bit nondescript as I  do of the one on the Chelsea Embankment, where the composer lived at the early part of the last century. Neither of those were modelled from life. By far the best in my opinion is the bust made by David McFall (pictured below) in the composer's presence, whilst he was composing his Ninth Symphony. VW kept very busy as he didn't want the young man (McFall) to see him 'slacking'. The resulting sculpture, I think, is very moving:

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See info below as well:
http://www.davidmcfall.co.uk/page90.html
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 14, 2019, 12:05:15 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 13, 2019, 10:28:26 AM
Thanks Lol. I have to say that I find the Dorking sculpture a bit nondescript as I  do of the one on the Chelsea Embankment, where the composer lived at the early part of the last century. Neither of those were modelled from life. By far the best in my opinion is the bust made by David McFall (pictured below) in the composer's presence, whilst he was composing his Ninth Symphony. VW kept very busy as he didn't want the young man (McFall) to see him 'slacking'. The resulting sculpture, I think, is very moving:



See info below as well:
http://www.davidmcfall.co.uk/page90.html

Fascinating! Thank you very much for link. I didn't realise the significance of the LP cover image of RVW on the World Record Club issue of Boult's Everest recording of the 9th Symphony. Looking on back in small letters it does say - The bust of Vaughan Williams is reproduced by permission of Mrs Vaughan Williams and the sculptor.

(https://i.imgur.com/1L8jWey.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on October 14, 2019, 01:48:43 AM
RVW's concerto for two pianos from Russia. Good!

https://www.youtube.com/v/56nIkeXIzb0
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2019, 05:20:38 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 14, 2019, 12:05:15 AM
Fascinating! Thank you very much for link. I didn't realise the significance of the LP cover image of RVW on the World Record Club issue of Boult's Everest recording of the 9th Symphony. Looking on back in small letters it does say - The bust of Vaughan Williams is reproduced by permission of Mrs Vaughan Williams and the sculptor.

(https://i.imgur.com/1L8jWey.jpg)
I bought that LP a few years ago just for the cover. It appears on Boult's EMI LP boxed set of the symphonies too - the first time I encountered the portrait and it encouraged me to a lifelong interest in sculpture. For years it was situated on one of the staircases at the Royal Festival Hall. I always went to visit it whenever I attended a concert there.
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2019, 05:33:27 AM
Quote from: pjme on October 14, 2019, 01:48:43 AM
RVW's concerto for two pianos from Russia. Good!

https://www.youtube.com/v/56nIkeXIzb0

What an extraordinary performance! They make it sound like Shostakovich. I only heard the first few minutes as I have to go out (to a concert in London) but I really look forward to hearing the rest of it. Was this all in one concert? Thanks so much for posting such an interesting video. Great to hear RVW in Russia, although there is, amazingly, a Melodiya boxed set of the symphonies with Rozhdestvensky conducting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on October 14, 2019, 03:00:49 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 08, 2019, 11:45:41 PM
There is a wonderful version conducted by the composer which only came to light a few years ago:
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Vandermolen,

I was so excited by your pointer (a few posts ago) so I went ahead and got a copy of the historical recording you recommended and I'm NOT regretting it a bit.

Vaughan Williams
Symphony No. 5
London PO/Vaughan Williams


Definitely a powerful and immersive reading. Very beautiful recording. The sound is a little bit historical, but one forgives it easily and the music dominates. Lovely! The sound engineers did a fantastic job on Dona Nobis Pacem. I would never have guessed that it originated from the late 1930s (in contrast to the #5 from the 50s).  I think I will listen to it again it later this evening.  Thanks for the recommendation, Vandermolen! A keeper for sure!

[asin] B000WM86UW[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Moonfish on October 14, 2019, 03:01:53 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2019, 05:20:38 AM
I bought that LP a few years ago just for the cover. It appears on Boult's EMI LP boxed set of the symphonies too - the first time I encountered the portrait and it encouraged me to a lifelong interest in sculpture. For years it was situated on one of the staircases at the Royal Festival Hall. I always went to visit it whenever I attended a concert there.
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Love how you got the LP just to get the cover!    ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 15, 2019, 12:13:22 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on October 14, 2019, 03:00:49 PM
Vandermolen,

I was so excited by your pointer (a few posts ago) so I went ahead and got a copy of the historical recording you recommended and I'm NOT regretting it a bit.

Vaughan Williams
Symphony No. 5
London PO/Vaughan Williams


Definitely a powerful and immersive reading. Very beautiful recording. The sound is a little bit historical, but one forgives it easily and the music dominates. Lovely! The sound engineers did a fantastic job on Dona Nobis Pacem. I would never have guessed that it originated from the late 1930s (in contrast to the #5 from the 50s).  I think I will listen to it again it later this evening.  Thanks for the recommendation, Vandermolen! A keeper for sure!

[asin] B000WM86UW[/asin]

Moonfish,

I'm delighted that you enjoyed it so much! It's a remarkable performance of both works and one of the few CDs or LPs that I have purchased for the musical content rather than for the cover image  8). Having said that I do rather like the cover photo of a benevolent looking VW. To be frank I actually prefer VW's recording of his Fifth Symphony more than the fabled recording of him conducting his Fourth Symphony, which everyone raves about but it just sounds rushed to me. In terms of historical recordings I much prefer the one by Mitropolous of Symphony No.4. You are right that DNP (Dona Nobis Pacem) is also an excellent performance. I wish that there were more recordings of him conducting his own works. I'd loved to have heard him conducting A London Symphony or Symphony No.6 for example.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 07, 2019, 05:16:23 AM
On Twitter: Ralph Vaughan Williams Society @RVWSociety  Looking forward to tomorrow's World Premiere of #RalphVaughanWilliams's 'The Future', based on the poem by #MatthewArnold
@theusherhall and @GCHalls on Saturday with @RSNO @RSNOChorus and conductor #MartinYates.

Also here: https://seenandheard-international.com/2019/10/new-martin-yates-and-rsno-to-give-world-premiere-of-the-future-by-ralph-vaughan-williams
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 07, 2019, 05:39:21 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 07, 2019, 05:16:23 AM
On Twitter: Ralph Vaughan Williams Society @RVWSociety  Looking forward to tomorrow's World Premiere of #RalphVaughanWilliams's 'The Future', based on the poem by #MatthewArnold
@theusherhall and @GCHalls on Saturday with @RSNO @RSNOChorus and conductor #MartinYates.

Also here: https://seenandheard-international.com/2019/10/new-martin-yates-and-rsno-to-give-world-premiere-of-the-future-by-ralph-vaughan-williams

this sort of thing pulls me in both directions.  As a fully paid up (but very sad) RVW completist my heart says wow wow wow.  Then my head kicks in and says a) RVW left it in short score b) it literally stops mid-page so it has had to be completed with no sketches at all. 

I appreciate the skill and dedication of Martin Yates and I'm sure his version will be as good as it could possibly be but should there be another conjectural piece such as this.  Perhaps RVW left it alone for a reason.  Of all the estates his seems to be the keenest on releasing juvenalia, speculative completions etc........
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 07, 2019, 05:56:52 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 07, 2019, 05:39:21 AM
this sort of thing pulls me in both directions.  As a fully paid up (but very sad) RVW completist my heart says wow wow wow.  Then my head kicks in and says a) RVW left it in short score b) it literally stops mid-page so it has had to be completed with no sketches at all. 

I appreciate the skill and dedication of Martin Yates and I'm sure his version will be as good as it could possibly be but should there be another conjectural piece such as this.  Perhaps RVW left it alone for a reason.  Of all the estates his seems to be the keenest on releasing juvenalia, speculative completions etc........

From what you say I assume the RVW Society has control of his musical estate, if so this is very sad. I doubt if there is a scrap of Mozart, Beethoven or Schubert that someone hasn't had a go at completing and recording but their music is in the public domain; the RVW Society should know better. I see no reason why they shouldn't publish the fragment for the benefit of scholars and other enthusiasts but why bother with a speculative completion?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 07, 2019, 06:00:32 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 07, 2019, 05:39:21 AM
I appreciate the skill and dedication of Martin Yates and I'm sure his version will be as good as it could possibly be but should there be another conjectural piece such as this.  Perhaps RVW left it alone for a reason.  Of all the estates his seems to be the keenest on releasing juvenalia, speculative completions etc........

I'm a completest too and you might be surprised that virtually any composer has much discarded works especially in their juvenilia years.  Mahler had four student symphonies and I would LOVE to hear them (they were destroyed during the WWII bombings), some indications of a Shostakovich No. 16, of course Sibelius 8.  I absolutely want to hear what might have been.  Composers/arrangers who have studied another composers style could certainly prepare a performance edition which is fine as long as everyone understands this is an interpretation.  I very much enjoy Scriabin/Nemtin's Mysterium for example which I believe the third part was Nemtin writing in a Scriabin late style.  I'm all for this if it is the only thing we can get of a formative/incomplete work from a major composer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 07, 2019, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 07, 2019, 06:00:32 AM
I'm a completest too and you might be surprised that virtually any composer has much discarded works especially in their juvenilia years.  Mahler had four student symphonies and I would LOVE to hear them (they were destroyed during the WWII bombings), some indications of a Shostakovich No. 16, of course Sibelius 8.  I absolutely want to hear what might have been.  Composers/arrangers who have studied another composers style could certainly prepare a performance edition which is fine as long as everyone understands this is an interpretation.  I very much enjoy Scriabin/Nemtin's Mysterium for example which I believe the third part was Nemtin writing in a Scriabin late style.  I'm all for this if it is the only thing we can get of a formative/incomplete work from a major composer.

I'm old enough to remember when Shostakovich died and remember, at the time, that there were some references to an incomplete 16th Symphony in the obituaries - but until your post I've heard no mention of it since.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2019, 07:31:58 AM
Cross-posted from 'New Releases' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 04, 2019, 05:07:39 PM
Super excited for this early January release:

(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571282800.png)

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68280 (https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68280)

I've really loved Brabbins' RVW recordings so far. Definitely hope this recording is as good as the others.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 07, 2019, 04:53:18 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 07, 2019, 07:02:49 AM
I'm old enough to remember when Shostakovich died and remember, at the time, that there were some references to an incomplete 16th Symphony in the obituaries - but until your post I've heard no mention of it since.

How much time went by before scraps of Sibelius 8 was heard?  What if the same was true with Shosti?  I would want to hear it even if it was in fragments.  I would even more so love to hear a composer who thoroughly understood him attempt to interpret what might have been.  AS LONG AS THEY THOROUGHLY UNDERSTOOD HIM, HIS STYLE, HIS WISHES.  Those who disagree, ignore the interpretation.  I fundamentally disagree with those who think we shouldn't try to imagine it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 07, 2019, 10:47:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 07, 2019, 07:31:58 AM
Cross-posted from 'New Releases' thread:
I'll be very interested to hear your views on this John. I rather regret buying nearly all of the Manze cycle releases and the Elder too (other than 'A Pastoral Symphony') but I've really thought very highly of the Brabbins releases so far (A Sea Symphony and the 1920 A London Symphony).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 07, 2019, 11:31:57 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 07, 2019, 10:47:55 PM
I'll be very interested to hear your views on this John. I rather regret buying nearly all of the Manze cycle releases and the Elder too (other than 'A Pastoral Symphony') but I've really thought very highly of the Brabbins releases so far (A Sea Symphony and the 1920 A London Symphony).

Vandermolen - I tend to agree with you about Elder and Manze.  But wearing my "glass-half-full-hat" (which I accept is quite an unusual piece of headwear!) how good that RVW is still valued to the degree that 3 new/recent cycles are competing for attention on top of all the previous much-loved versions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 08, 2019, 01:02:45 AM
The Elder cycle was generally excellent with the Sea Symphony one of my favourite versions and the 8th my favourite among modern recordings. Then it crashed horribly with the album of Nos 4 & 6,  lacklustre performances made worse by the idiotic layout of the disc  (No 6 first). I have since partially re-evaluated No 6 but can't bring myself to listen to No 4 again yet.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 08, 2019, 02:14:42 AM
Thanks RS and Biffo. I'm going to hold fire on Brabbins's nos. 3 and 4 until I've read some reviews, not that these are always very reliable.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 08, 2019, 07:12:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 07, 2019, 10:47:55 PM
I'll be very interested to hear your views on this John. I rather regret buying nearly all of the Manze cycle releases and the Elder too (other than 'A Pastoral Symphony') but I've really thought very highly of the Brabbins releases so far (A Sea Symphony and the 1920 A London Symphony).

Well, I think a part of the problem is we all have a certain bias towards performances that we know and love and nothing can really challenge them. It's almost like a mental block that keeps us from appreciating a different approach. This said, I still don't think much of Manze's RVW performances. I just don't hear anything special in the interpretations. Brabbins, on the other hand, made me rethink some things --- his London Symphony was absolutely spectacular, IMHO. I thought A Sea Symphony was quite good, but I'm not a fan of this symphony anyway, except for that glorious last movement --- that's enough to listen on its' own and enjoy. Brabbins does wonders with it. I'll definitely let you know about Brabbins in the Pastoral and Symphony No. 4, but it'll be awhile as this recording doesn't come out until January, which, I suppose, is creeping up faster than must of us realize --- time files by for sure. I'm with you on Elder's Pastoral. That particular recording, for me, is the best RVW he has done.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 08, 2019, 07:44:56 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 07, 2019, 11:31:57 PM
Vandermolen - I tend to agree with you about Elder and Manze.  But wearing my "glass-half-full-hat" (which I accept is quite an unusual piece of headwear!) how good that RVW is still valued to the degree that 3 new/recent cycles are competing for attention on top of all the previous much-loved versions.

Certainly a fair point indeed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 08, 2019, 11:05:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 08, 2019, 07:12:00 AM
Well, I think a part of the problem is we all have a certain bias towards performances that we know and love and nothing can really challenge them. It's almost like a mental block that keeps us from appreciating a different approach. This said, I still don't think much of Manze's RVW performances. I just don't hear anything special in the interpretations. Brabbins, on the other hand, made me rethink some things --- his London Symphony was absolutely spectacular, IMHO. I thought A Sea Symphony was quite good, but I'm not a fan of this symphony anyway, except for that glorious last movement --- that's enough to listen on its' own and enjoy. Brabbins does wonders with it. I'll definitely let you know about Brabbins in the Pastoral and Symphony No. 4, but it'll be awhile as this recording doesn't come out until January, which, I suppose, is creeping up faster than must of us realize --- time files by for sure. I'm with you on Elder's Pastoral. That particular recording, for me, is the best RVW he has done.
Yes, I'll definitely want to hear your view John. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on November 13, 2019, 07:07:54 AM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 4 [Berglund]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GzST5Y75L._PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)


Vaughan Williams' Symphony No. 4 is a work that I have great difficulty in analysing for some reason but this does not detract from my enjoyment of the work. This, however, is a gripping and an intense version by Berglund and I really like it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 08:48:47 AM
Quote from: aligreto on November 13, 2019, 07:07:54 AM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 4 [Berglund]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GzST5Y75L._PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)


Vaughan Williams' Symphony No. 4 is a work that I have great difficulty in analysing for some reason but this does not detract from my enjoyment of the work. This, however, is a gripping and an intense version by Berglund and I really like it.

Yes, indeed. All of Berglund's RVW and Shostakovich are worth hearing. Of course, his Sibelius was a revelation to me (and still is). Have you heard Bernstein's performance of RVW's 4th. Another towering performance, IMHO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 13, 2019, 09:18:08 AM
Quote from: aligreto on November 13, 2019, 07:07:54 AM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 4 [Berglund]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GzST5Y75L._PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)


Vaughan Williams' Symphony No. 4 is a work that I have great difficulty in analysing for some reason but this does not detract from my enjoyment of the work. This, however, is a gripping and an intense version by Berglund and I really like it.

It was chosen as No.1 choice on BBC Record Review a few years ago. It is indeed a fabulous performance as is his recording of Symphony No.6 - a work which I think is surprisingly difficult to get right on disc. I think that there are very few entirely successful recordings. My favourites are Boult (LPO), Thomson, Berglund, Haitink, Davis and Abravanel.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on November 13, 2019, 10:49:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 08:48:47 AM
Have you heard Bernstein's performance of RVW's 4th. Another towering performance, IMHO.

No I have not. Thank you for the recommendation.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on November 13, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 13, 2019, 09:18:08 AM

It was chosen as No.1 choice on BBC Record Review a few years ago. It is indeed a fabulous performance as is his recording of Symphony No.6.

Berglund depicts the sometimes harsh and brutal sound world of Symphony No. 4 very well. However, I feel that he also offers a modicum of lyricism. The Andante Moderato movement seems particularly bleak and poignant to me on first listen. I feel that Berglund tends more towards the Boult version in terms of tone rather than that of Previn.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 13, 2019, 10:03:06 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 07, 2019, 04:53:18 PM
How much time went by before scraps of Sibelius 8 was heard?  What if the same was true with Shosti?  I would want to hear it even if it was in fragments.  I would even more so love to hear a composer who thoroughly understood him attempt to interpret what might have been.  AS LONG AS THEY THOROUGHLY UNDERSTOOD HIM, HIS STYLE, HIS WISHES.  Those who disagree, ignore the interpretation.  I fundamentally disagree with those who think we shouldn't try to imagine it.
Yes, very much agree with you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 14, 2019, 01:49:26 AM
+ 1
BTW, the Elder Pastoral - one of the finest IMHO - is on offer at JPC Germany: https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/williams-pastoral-symphony/hnum/6509792
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2019, 06:34:56 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 07, 2019, 04:53:18 PM
How much time went by before scraps of Sibelius 8 was heard?  What if the same was true with Shosti?  I would want to hear it even if it was in fragments.  I would even more so love to hear a composer who thoroughly understood him attempt to interpret what might have been.  AS LONG AS THEY THOROUGHLY UNDERSTOOD HIM, HIS STYLE, HIS WISHES.  Those who disagree, ignore the interpretation.  I fundamentally disagree with those who think we shouldn't try to imagine it.

Sibelius died in 1957 and it wasn't until 2011 before any of these surviving fragments were heard.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on November 17, 2019, 05:54:20 AM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5 [Gibson]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GzST5Y75L._PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)


The wonderful, singing, pastoral opening is well played here. However, by comparison with my other two versions [Boult and Previn], I felt that there was more restraint here as well as more poignancy. This is not a bad thing as it adds an interesting flavour to the interpretation. I like the treatment of the woodwinds and the brass in particular in this first movement.
I like the sense of levity in the second movement but there is a definite dark undercurrent at play here.
The slow movement, Romanza, is a dark version to my ears. The tempo appears quite slow and the tone is heavy, almost oppressive; not quite disconcerting, more forlorn perhaps. I still like it; it offers a different interpretation to that of both Boult and Previn.
The tone of the final movement is far more upbeat, assertive and vociferous. I particularly like the voice of the brass here. The movement concludes with an air of yearning that is enhanced by both the woodwinds and strings.


I find this to be a lyrical version but with the added sentiment of yearning and poignancy prominent throughout. I find it to be a somewhat brooding and contemplative affair overall but I do like it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 17, 2019, 06:29:18 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2019, 06:34:56 AM
Sibelius died in 1957 and it wasn't until 2011 before any of these surviving fragments were heard.

So?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 17, 2019, 11:42:38 AM
Quote from: aligreto on November 17, 2019, 05:54:20 AM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5 [Gibson]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GzST5Y75L._PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)


The wonderful, singing, pastoral opening is well played here. However, by comparison with my other two versions [Boult and Previn], I felt that there was more restraint here as well as more poignancy. This is not a bad thing as it adds an interesting flavour to the interpretation. I like the treatment of the woodwinds and the brass in particular in this first movement.
I like the sense of levity in the second movement but there is a definite dark undercurrent at play here.
The slow movement, Romanza, is a dark version to my ears. The tempo appears quite slow and the tone is heavy, almost oppressive; not quite disconcerting, more forlorn perhaps. I still like it; it offers a different interpretation to that of both Boult and Previn.
The tone of the final movement is far more upbeat, assertive and vociferous. I particularly like the voice of the brass here. The movement concludes with an air of yearning that is enhanced by both the woodwinds and strings.


I find this to be a lyrical version but with the added sentiment of yearning and poignancy prominent throughout. I find it to be a somewhat brooding and contemplative affair overall but I do like it.
Very nice review of a fine performance Fergus.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on November 17, 2019, 12:30:18 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 17, 2019, 11:42:38 AM
Very nice review of a fine performance Fergus.

Cheers Jeffrey. I think that we are mutually partial as far as this one is concerned Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 17, 2019, 01:27:39 PM
Quote from: aligreto on November 17, 2019, 12:30:18 PM
Cheers Jeffrey. I think that we are mutually partial as far as this one is concerned Jeffrey.
Indeed Fergus. Here are the two LP releases:

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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2019, 06:52:12 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 17, 2019, 06:29:18 AM
So?

How?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 18, 2019, 05:57:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2019, 06:52:12 PM
How?

I didn't follow the point you meant about Sibelius died in 1957 but 8th fragments were heard in 2011.  Shostakovich died in 1975 and Orango was constructed and first performed in 2015.  So?  What difference does that make?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: North Star on November 18, 2019, 07:25:07 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 07, 2019, 04:53:18 PM
How much time went by before scraps of Sibelius 8 was heard?

Quote from: relm1 on November 18, 2019, 05:57:32 AM
I didn't follow the point you meant about Sibelius died in 1957 but 8th fragments were heard in 2011.  Shostakovich died in 1975 and Orango was constructed and first performed in 2015.  So?  What difference does that make?
You asked, and got an answer...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 18, 2019, 07:29:58 AM
Quote from: North Star on November 18, 2019, 07:25:07 AM
You asked, and got an answer...

Yes, indeed. Don't ask a question and not expect to get an answer. If it was a rhetorical question, then it's difficult to assimilate the difference online.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 18, 2019, 04:26:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 18, 2019, 07:29:58 AM
Yes, indeed. Don't ask a question and not expect to get an answer. If it was a rhetorical question, then it's difficult to assimilate the difference online.

Of course it was rhetorical. CONTEXT PEOPLE!!!!  Ok so now that I follow, who cares.  Back to topic, it doesn't matter that time passes between when sketches are made and a "performing edition" appears as long as it is reconstructed with thoughtful knowledge from an expert in that composers style and clearly understood to be a best guess of what could have been.   Geesh you pandemic people.   :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 18, 2019, 04:37:17 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 18, 2019, 04:26:56 PM
Of course it was rhetorical. CONTEXT PEOPLE!!!!  Ok so now that I follow, who cares.  Back to topic, it doesn't matter that time passes between when sketches are made and a "performing edition" appears as long as it is reconstructed with thoughtful knowledge from an expert in that composers style and clearly understood to be a best guess of what could have been.   Geesh you pandemic people.   :P

And as I pointed out, I didn't understand that you weren't actually asking a question --- there's no need to talk down to me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on November 19, 2019, 01:37:38 AM
Guys, can you two, or the mods, take this somewhere else please??? This valuable thread has been hijacked.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 19, 2019, 05:02:34 AM
Quote from: aligreto on November 19, 2019, 01:37:38 AM
Guys, can you two, or the mods, take this somewhere else please??? This valuable thread has been hijacked.
A mild cough, not developed into a real hijack yet. ;)  Especially, because we'll continue discussing RVW only.
Quote from: aligreto on November 17, 2019, 05:54:20 AM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5 [Gibson]

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GzST5Y75L._PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)

The wonderful, singing, pastoral opening is well played here. However, by comparison with my other two versions [Boult and Previn], I felt that there was more restraint here as well as more poignancy. This is not a bad thing as it adds an interesting flavour to the interpretation. I like the treatment of the woodwinds and the brass in particular in this first movement.
I like the sense of levity in the second movement but there is a definite dark undercurrent at play here.
The slow movement, Romanza, is a dark version to my ears. The tempo appears quite slow and the tone is heavy, almost oppressive; not quite disconcerting, more forlorn perhaps. I still like it; it offers a different interpretation to that of both Boult and Previn.
The tone of the final movement is far more upbeat, assertive and vociferous. I particularly like the voice of the brass here. The movement concludes with an air of yearning that is enhanced by both the woodwinds and strings.

I find this to be a lyrical version but with the added sentiment of yearning and poignancy prominent throughout. I find it to be a somewhat brooding and contemplative affair overall but I do like it.
Totally agree, like it very much, but find both the Fourth and Sixth in this coupling the more special recordings. Agree with Jeffrey both are among the very best. Still a highly recommended set as a whole, perhaps the best introduction into RVW symphonies one can get.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on November 19, 2019, 05:34:17 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 19, 2019, 05:02:34 AM
Totally agree, like it very much, but find both the Fourth and Sixth in this coupling the more special recordings. Agree with Jeffrey both are among the very best. Still a highly recommended set as a whole, perhaps the best introduction into RVW symphonies one can get.

Cheers, Christo. I do not have a great exposure to or understanding of the music of RWV and this set was recommended to me by vandermolen. I am delighted that I have purchased it and now I too offer it as a recommendation.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 20, 2019, 12:03:18 AM
I'm delighted that the Berglund/Gibson set has been a success and agree with Christo that it would be a great introduction to VW's music. One of the very positive things about the forum is introducing others to new recordings or pieces which they then enjoy. I would probably never have discovered Bax's magnificent Piano Quintet, for example, without the recommendations of others (Symphonic Addict, now sadly disappeared, and Kyle, happily still here). HMV used to have a fine early 'own label' CD series which was more than 'popular classics' and I first came across the Gibson VW Symphony No.5 performance on one of their releases. I also liked their Dilkes/Barbirolli/Bax/Ireland/Moeran release. I've also posted the original EMI CD release of Berglund's VW's 4th Symphony which was a fabulous CD also featuring Silvestri's magnificent 'Tallis Fantasia'. Great stormy cover image as well (which I much prefer to the image of all those wasps!):
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 20, 2019, 12:20:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 20, 2019, 12:03:18 AM
I'm delighted that the Berglund/Gibson set has been a success and agree with Christo that it would be a great introduction to VW's music. One of the very positive things about the forum is introducing others to new recordings or pieces which they then enjoy. I would probably never have discovered Bax's magnificent Piano Quintet, for example, without the recommendations of others (Symphonic Addict, now sadly disappeared, and Kyle, happily still here). HMV used to have a fine early 'own label' CD series which was more than 'popular classics' and I first came across the Gibson VW Symphony No.5 performance on one of their releases. I also liked their Dilkes/Barbirolli/Bax/Ireland/Moeran release. I've also posted the original EMI CD release of Berglund's VW's 4th Symphony which was a fabulous CD also featuring Silvestri's magnificent 'Tallis Fantasia'. Great stormy cover image as well (which I much prefer to the image of all those wasps!):



Worth mentioning to Aligreto that both Berglund's 4th & 6th are available on LP. The 6th is a cracking performance, one of the best.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sEJu9Rcux54/Wy0sgRUKz8I/AAAAAAAABgo/gf-BYj-rSqAjwl7GZtK3TjLvDdtnIndvACLcBGAs/s200/R-6680917-1424517792-4405.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on November 20, 2019, 12:26:13 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 20, 2019, 12:20:25 AM
Worth mentioning to Aligreto that both Berglund's 4th & 6th are available on LP. The 6th is a cracking performance, one of the best.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sEJu9Rcux54/Wy0sgRUKz8I/AAAAAAAABgo/gf-BYj-rSqAjwl7GZtK3TjLvDdtnIndvACLcBGAs/s200/R-6680917-1424517792-4405.jpeg.jpg)

Thank you for that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 20, 2019, 12:42:35 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 20, 2019, 12:20:25 AM
Worth mentioning to Aligreto that both Berglund's 4th & 6th are available on LP. The 6th is a cracking performance, one of the best.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sEJu9Rcux54/Wy0sgRUKz8I/AAAAAAAABgo/gf-BYj-rSqAjwl7GZtK3TjLvDdtnIndvACLcBGAs/s200/R-6680917-1424517792-4405.jpeg.jpg)
Definitely. I bought the original LP release. I think that it was the first LP I bought of VW's 6th Symphony, other than Boult's two earlier releases.

Berglund's fine two performances also feature in his Icon box set, along with the Oboe Concerto and the Lark Ascending. That box also restored Beglund's excellent Bournemoth SO version of Nielsen's 5th Symphony (first CD release) and his excellent Shostakovich recordings as well. In the box set Berglund's recording of VW's Symphony No.6 is coupled with Bliss's 'Miracle in the Gorbals' - two dark and stormy works which I think go rather well together:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 20, 2019, 01:52:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 20, 2019, 12:42:35 AM
Definitely. I bought the original LP release. I think that it was the first LP I bought of VW's 6th Symphony, other than Boult's two earlier releases.

Berglund's fine two performances also feature in his Icon box set, along with the Oboe Concerto and the Lark Ascending. That box also restored Beglund's excellent Bournemoth SO version of Nielsen's 5th Symphony (first CD release) and his excellent Shostakovich recordings as well. In the box set Berglund's recording of VW's Symphony No.6 is coupled with Bliss's 'Miracle in the Gorbals' - two dark and stormy works which I think go rather well together:
(//)

I second Vandermolen's recommendation of the Berglund/Icons box.  Exceptional performances throughout - as well as those mentioned before I especially rate his DSCH No.10.  Back in the days of LP's I remember his No.7 being (deservedly) well received but No.10 is very fine too.  My only sorrow was that this box includes his Helsinki/Kullervo and I think the Bournemouth 'original' is better.  Miracle in the Gorbals is a great piece - one of those "forgotten" British ballets that we will probably never ever see on stage again (I'd love to see RVW's Job danced!).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 20, 2019, 04:51:25 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 20, 2019, 01:52:57 AM
I second Vandermolen's recommendation of the Berglund/Icons box.  Exceptional performances throughout - as well as those mentioned before I especially rate his DSCH No.10.  Back in the days of LP's I remember his No.7 being (deservedly) well received but No.10 is very fine too.  My only sorrow was that this box includes his Helsinki/Kullervo and I think the Bournemouth 'original' is better.  Miracle in the Gorbals is a great piece - one of those "forgotten" British ballets that we will probably never ever see on stage again (I'd love to see RVW's Job danced!).
I agree with you RS about the Bournemouth Kullervo being better than the Helsinki one. Another favourite is Berglund's Bournemouth recording of Shostakovich's Symphony 11 'The Year 1905'. I remember that the double LP set had a very shiny mirror-like cover. Unfortunately it was stolen with various other LPs out of my car many years ago  :(.
In a way I'm surprised that Berglund never recorded Vaighan Williams's 5th Symphony as it's the most Sibelian of the lot and dedicated to the Finnish composer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on December 05, 2019, 09:08:32 AM
I've surely missed this discussion since the disc is a few years old, but has anyone heard the Dutton CD purporting to be a "new edition" of the Fifth Symphony, correcting various errors and markings which previous editions got wrong because of RVW's bad handwriting?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 05, 2019, 09:12:19 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 05, 2019, 09:08:32 AM
I've surely missed this discussion since the disc is a few years old, but has anyone heard the Dutton CD purporting to be a "new edition" of the Fifth Symphony, correcting various errors and markings which previous editions got wrong because of RVW's bad handwriting?
Yes, indeed, although I have to say that I didn't notice anything different to other recordings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 12, 2020, 09:43:07 AM
Good review of the new Brabbins CD of symphonies 3 and 4 in the Sunday Times today.

'These fine performances let one take the measure of VW's greatness; the brief, choral-orchestral Sarabande Helen is an attractive filler.'

So, predictably, my nerve has gone and I've ordered the CD.
::)



The cover image reminds me of the Pierre Boulez VW April Fool's Day spoof of some years ago:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 12, 2020, 11:22:56 AM
Talk of Boulez hoax cover reminds me that way back (say around 1985) I found a recording of the Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis by Karajan in a record shop. It seemed so bizarre, but I didn't have the money to splash out on possibly disasterous recordings. Has anyone heard this recording, and is it notably bad?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 12, 2020, 12:07:00 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 12, 2020, 11:22:56 AM
Talk of Boulez hoax cover reminds me that way back (say around 1985) I found a recording of the Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis by Karajan in a record shop. It seemed so bizarre, but I didn't have the money to splash out on possibly disasterous recordings. Has anyone heard this recording, and is it notably bad?
I think I've got it somewhere and recall it as being a solid enough performance. Amazingly he recorded Walton's First Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 12, 2020, 01:44:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 12, 2020, 12:07:00 PM
I think I've got it somewhere and recall it as being a solid enough performance. Amazingly he recorded Walton's First Symphony.

Me too, see to the right, but it's on Youtube too:
https://www.youtube.com/v/D5NwGFvZ23s (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61ug32lQ%2BaL._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on January 12, 2020, 05:21:22 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 12, 2020, 11:22:56 AM
Talk of Boulez hoax cover reminds me that way back (say around 1985) I found a recording of the Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis by Karajan in a record shop. It seemed so bizarre, but I didn't have the money to splash out on possibly disasterous recordings. Has anyone heard this recording, and is it notably bad?

I have it as part of the big EMI Karajan set. He recorded it in 1953.  My memory of listening to it is a bit dim, so it probably was not noteable for anything either positive or negative.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 13, 2020, 09:17:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 12, 2020, 12:07:00 PM
I think I've got it somewhere and recall it as being a solid enough performance. Amazingly he recorded Walton's First Symphony.

One nominal Karajan/Walton 1 was a particularly convincing April  Fool - the old RAI recording seems pretty ropey to me although it has some adherents......

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Apr06/Walton1_4574332.htm

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 13, 2020, 10:48:57 AM
I listened to the KarajanTallis Fantasia on Youtube, but the sound was too old for me to pay much attention  :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 13, 2020, 12:52:38 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 13, 2020, 10:48:57 AM
I listened to the KarajanTallis Fantasia on Youtube, but the sound was too old for me to pay much attention  :(

Yep, it's from 1910. Some here play even older stuff, don't know, Bach or someting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 15, 2020, 11:28:39 PM
From WAYLTN thread:
First listen before work 'A Pastoral Symphony':
I'm enjoying this warm-hearted performance enormously. The recording is beautiful, highlighting the solo woodwind instruments in particular. It is a while since I listened to this symphony. The third movement has great rhythmic drive, played faster, I think, than some other performances. I'm not sure that it will displace Previn's as my favourite performance but I'm pleased that I decided to get hold of it. So far I have enjoyed the first three symphonies and rate this cycle more highly than the ones by Manze and Elder (notwithstanding a fine No.3 there as well):


(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 16, 2020, 02:14:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 15, 2020, 11:28:39 PM
From WAYLTN thread:
First listen before work 'A Pastoral Symphony':
I'm enjoying this warm-hearted performance enormously. The recording is beautiful, highlighting the solo woodwind instruments in particular. It is a while since I listened to this symphony. The third movement has great rhythmic drive, played faster, I think, than some other performances. I'm not sure that it will displace Previn's as my favourite performance but I'm pleased that I decided to get hold of it. So far I have enjoyed the first three symphonies and rate this cycle more highly than the ones by Manze and Elder (notwithstanding a fine No.3 there as well):

Exactly the same experience here, played it this morning for the first time and was taken (not able to listen till the end). Definitely one of the better performances, and now on for No. 4.   :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 16, 2020, 06:04:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 15, 2020, 11:28:39 PM
From WAYLTN thread:
First listen before work 'A Pastoral Symphony':
I'm enjoying this warm-hearted performance enormously. The recording is beautiful, highlighting the solo woodwind instruments in particular. It is a while since I listened to this symphony. The third movement has great rhythmic drive, played faster, I think, than some other performances. I'm not sure that it will displace Previn's as my favourite performance but I'm pleased that I decided to get hold of it. So far I have enjoyed the first three symphonies and rate this cycle more highly than the ones by Manze and Elder (notwithstanding a fine No.3 there as well):

(//)

My feeling is the No.3 on this disc is good to very good and the No.4 good (well-played etc) but lacking real fire and fury.

By the way - the 3rd movement here is slightly slower than Norrington/Davis/Handley but nearly identical to Boult
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 16, 2020, 10:44:58 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 16, 2020, 06:04:00 AM
My feeling is the No.3 on this disc is good to very good and the No.4 good (well-played etc) but lacking real fire and fury.

By the way - the 3rd movement here is slightly slower than Norrington/Davis/Handley but nearly identical to Boult

Interesting RS. Thank you. Anyway the performance of 'A Pastoral Symphony' gave me great pleasure and I look forward to hearing it again. I found the Nortington recordings of the VW symphonies to be very unappealing, although Symphony No.3 not as bad as the rest. In self-consciously trying to present VW as 'a major European composer' in my view Norrington just made the music sound strangely unidiomatic. The cycle was never completed. On to Symphony No.4 next!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 16, 2020, 11:38:01 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 16, 2020, 06:04:00 AM
By the way - the 3rd movement here is slightly slower than Norrington/Davis/Handley but nearly identical to Boult

Nothing but Strict Science - a watch - can help us out:

Symphony No. 3 'A Pastoral' 1921         I. Molto moderato   II. Lento moderato   III. Moderato pesante; presto    IV. Lento
1.   Boult I / LPO 1952          09.37      08.11      06.19      11.05      
2.   Boult II / LPO 1968         09.45      07.27      06.19      10.08   
3.   Boult / BBC SO live 1966      09.48      08.01      06.20      11.01
4.   Previn / LSO 1971         11.07      09.21      06.30      11.01   
5.   Ormandy / Philadelphia live 1972      10.17      08.25      06.05      09.43      
6.   Thomson / LSO 1987         10.23      08.15      06.37      10.55
7.   Rozhdestvensky / USSR SSO 1988   11.42      08.35      07.33      10.14
8.   Handley / RLPO 1991         09.43      08.26      06.02      11.00
9.   Slatkin / PO 1991         09.59      09.07      06.02      11.10
10.   Bakels / BSO 1992         11.08      09.19      06.27      10.44   
11.   Davis / BBC SO 1996         09.43      07.49      06.12      10.46       
12.   Haitink / LPO 1996         10.20      09.25      07.26      11.51      
13.   Norrington / LPO 1997         09.21      08.50      06.06      11.10    
14.   Hickox / LSO 2002         10.43      10.27      06.36      11.20   
15.   Norrington / Concertgebouw live 2004   08.56      08.05      05.50      09.40      
16.   Elder / Hallé 2013         10.28      08.57      05.49      11.17      
17.   Manze / BBC SO live Proms 2014      11.41      09.10      06.16      11.28
18.   Manze / RLPO 2016         11.11      08.46      06.22      10.39    
19.   Kenjiro Matsunaga/OsakaSO live 2018   10.20      09.40      05.53      10.45
20.   Brabbyns / BBC SO 2020      10.33      08.58      06.17      11.41

Ergo: both Rozhdestvensky and Haitink much slower in the third movement (moderato pesante).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 16, 2020, 12:12:33 PM
V interesting Johan. Thanks you for taking the trouble to do the comparative analysis.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2020, 08:51:56 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 15, 2020, 11:28:39 PM
From WAYLTN thread:
First listen before work 'A Pastoral Symphony':
I'm enjoying this warm-hearted performance enormously. The recording is beautiful, highlighting the solo woodwind instruments in particular. It is a while since I listened to this symphony. The third movement has great rhythmic drive, played faster, I think, than some other performances. I'm not sure that it will displace Previn's as my favourite performance but I'm pleased that I decided to get hold of it. So far I have enjoyed the first three symphonies and rate this cycle more highly than the ones by Manze and Elder (notwithstanding a fine No.3 there as well):


(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=62075;image)

I forgot to mention that I listened to Brabbins' performance of A Pastoral Symphony. I really dislike being the contrarian here, but I did not enjoy this performance at all. This symphony is one of my favorites (right up there with the 5th and 6th for me), but I found it too polite and mannered. The urgency just wasn't there that this 'symphonic requiem' needs. I have yet to hear anyone top Previn's scintillating performance, but I was quite impressed with the Elder performance with the Halle I heard a few years ago. It's also no surprise that Vaughan Williams doesn't get played too much by me these days. It seems I'm slowly moving away from many of the composers I tended to favor earlier on. Tastes do change (for better or for worse). I still think highly of the composer and wouldn't trade all the time I've spent absorbing and enjoying his music for anything. I don't want this to sound like my farewell to RVW, because it's certainly not, but this is what it ended up sounding like. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 16, 2020, 10:13:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 16, 2020, 08:51:56 PM
I forgot to mention that I listened to Brabbins' performance of A Pastoral Symphony. I really dislike being the contrarian here, but I did not enjoy this performance at all. This symphony is one of my favorites (right up there with the 5th and 6th for me), but I found it too polite and mannered. The urgency just wasn't there that this 'symphonic requiem' needs. I have yet to hear anyone top Previn's scintillating performance, but I was quite impressed with the Elder performance with the Halle I heard a few years ago. It's also no surprise that Vaughan Williams doesn't get played too much by me these days. It seems I'm slowly moving away from many of the composers I tended to favor earlier on. Tastes do change (for better or for worse). I still think highly of the composer and wouldn't trade all the time I've spent absorbing and enjoying his music for anything. I don't want this to sound like my farewell to RVW, because it's certainly not, but this is what it ended up sounding like. :)
Vaughan Williams recognised this himself, telling the young composer Arthur Butterworth, an early enthusiast, 'if later on my music does not mean as much to you, you should not think that this is in any way disloyal to me.' I find that there are times when I listen to his music a lot and times when I listen less often. The new Brabbins recording has rekindled my admiration for 'A Pastoral Symphony' but I'd like to listen to the Elder again. The fact that we have different views here is inevitable and a positive as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't expect anyone (other than Christo  8)) to share my view of VW.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 17, 2020, 03:46:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 16, 2020, 08:51:56 PM
I forgot to mention that I listened to Brabbins' performance of A Pastoral Symphony. I really dislike being the contrarian here, but I did not enjoy this performance at all. This symphony is one of my favorites (right up there with the 5th and 6th for me), but I found it too polite and mannered. The urgency just wasn't there that this 'symphonic requiem' needs. I have yet to hear anyone top Previn's scintillating performance, but I was quite impressed with the Elder performance with the Halle I heard a few years ago. It's also no surprise that Vaughan Williams doesn't get played too much by me these days. It seems I'm slowly moving away from many of the composers I tended to favor earlier on. Tastes do change (for better or for worse). I still think highly of the composer and wouldn't trade all the time I've spent absorbing and enjoying his music for anything. I don't want this to sound like my farewell to RVW, because it's certainly not, but this is what it ended up sounding like. :)

What I do find remarkable is just how well in every respect the Previn recording stands up.  A 50 year old recording has no right to sound as good as this!! I'm a very big Previn fan anyway - in every field he just seems to "get" it - but is still worthy of comment how well a refugee from Germany brought up on West Coast America on cinema and jazz utterly and intuitively understood the RVW idiom.  Perhaps proof that great music knows no national boundaries......

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2020, 06:13:51 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 17, 2020, 03:46:26 AM
What I do find remarkable is just how well in every respect the Previn recording stands up.  A 50 year old recording has no right to sound as good as this!! I'm a very big Previn fan anyway - in every field he just seems to "get" it - but is still worthy of comment how well a refugee from Germany brought up on West Coast America on cinema and jazz utterly and intuitively understood the RVW idiom.  Perhaps proof that great music knows no national boundaries......

Yes, indeed. Given Previn's affinity for British music and his own background, it does seem a bit odd how well he does in this music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2020, 06:19:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 16, 2020, 10:13:16 PM
Vaughan Williams recognised this himself, telling the young composer Arthur Butterworth, an early enthusiast, 'if later on my music does not mean as much to you, you should not think that this is in any way disloyal to me.' I find that there are times when I listen to his music a lot and times when I listen less often. The new Brabbins recording has rekindled my admiration for 'A Pastoral Symphony' but I'd like to listen to the Elder again. The fact that we have different views here is inevitable and a positive as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't expect anyone (other than Christo  8)) to share my view of VW.
:)

Very true, Jeffrey. I'll probably circle back around to RVW at some point (I tend to listen in cycles). I'm glad that you have a newfound enthusiasm for A Pastoral Symphony. It is a remarkable piece of music no doubt about it and totally unlike any other symphony I've heard from a British composer. Now that I'm thinking about it, its hushed mood reminds me of Ives' Symphony No. 3, "The Camp Meeting" --- not in the sense that both works share a similar musical language, but that the kind of atmosphere found in this Ives symphony mirrors RVW's Pastoral. It'd be interesting to listen to them side-by-side.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 17, 2020, 06:34:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 16, 2020, 08:51:56 PM
I forgot to mention that I listened to Brabbins' performance of A Pastoral Symphony. I really dislike being the contrarian here, but I did not enjoy this performance at all. This symphony is one of my favorites (right up there with the 5th and 6th for me), but I found it too polite and mannered. The urgency just wasn't there that this 'symphonic requiem' needs. I have yet to hear anyone top Previn's scintillating performance, but I was quite impressed with the Elder performance with the Halle I heard a few years ago. It's also no surprise that Vaughan Williams doesn't get played too much by me these days. It seems I'm slowly moving away from many of the composers I tended to favor earlier on. Tastes do change (for better or for worse). I still think highly of the composer and wouldn't trade all the time I've spent absorbing and enjoying his music for anything. I don't want this to sound like my farewell to RVW, because it's certainly not, but this is what it ended up sounding like. :)

It is like saying goodbye to an old friend and is upsetting. Happened to me this week listening to Prokofiev's 5th Symphony. Sadly the magic has gone, a favourite which I have listened many times - too many. The one consolation is that there are a constant supply of other and unheard works to explore.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 17, 2020, 08:30:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 16, 2020, 10:13:16 PM
I find that there are times when I listen to his music a lot and times when I listen less often.

I do that with every composer I like. Re the Pastoral, I still like Haitink's version a lot. It's a leisurely ramble, but with lots of nice detail and a dark woodsy atmosphere that captures the underlying melancholy quite well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on January 17, 2020, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Irons on January 17, 2020, 06:34:20 AM
It is like saying goodbye to an old friend and is upsetting. Happened to me this week listening to Prokofiev's 5th Symphony. Sadly the magic has gone, a favourite which I have listened many times - too many. The one consolation is that there are a constant supply of other and unheard works to explore.

You're making me depressed, but you're right that this is part of life. Sometimes I wish novelty would not play such a big role in the appreciation and enjoyment that I derive from music. It would certainly save me a lot of money.

Anyway, just wanted to join the chorus of praise for André Previn's recording of the Pastoral Symphony. I listened to it last night, it's phenomenal. I picked it up on a whim at a record store about a year ago, loved it so much that I ended up getting the complete Previn RVW cycle. However, I don't enjoy any of the other symphonies nearly as much. I don't know if Previn is to blame or if Vaughan Williams is. I'll keep trying with the symphony cycle. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. But I have a feeling there is something great in Vaughan Williams' music that I just haven't discovered yet (outside of the Pastoral Symphony which, if I haven't mentioned already, is a work that I love and hold close to my heart).

I just got this Decca 2CD the other day for $1 at a local record store:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/811bJrzKTcL._SL1200_.jpg)

I love the Vaughan Williams performances. Sir Neville and the Academy are perfect for this music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 17, 2020, 06:48:29 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 17, 2020, 02:15:43 PM
You're making me depressed, but you're right that this is part of life. Sometimes I wish novelty would not play such a big role in the appreciation and enjoyment that I derive from music. It would certainly save me a lot of money.

Anyway, just wanted to join the chorus of praise for André Previn's recording of the Pastoral Symphony. I listened to it last night, it's phenomenal. I picked it up on a whim at a record store about a year ago, loved it so much that I ended up getting the complete Previn RVW cycle. However, I don't enjoy any of the other symphonies nearly as much. I don't know if Previn is to blame or if Vaughan Williams is. I'll keep trying with the symphony cycle. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. But I have a feeling there is something great in Vaughan Williams' music that I just haven't discovered yet (outside of the Pastoral Symphony which, if I haven't mentioned already, is a work that I love and hold close to my heart).

So great to read, simply because of everything you write. Yes, Previn's A Pastoral is something athmospheric, very special. And yes, there is really, always, even if we don't see it, "something great in Vaughan Wiliams' music that we just haven't discovered yet'. Always, period.

He will end up, after one century or more, to be recognized as what he really is, without knowing it himself, because times were really different in his times as they are in ours, the "Bach of the 20th Century". Just as direct and simple, serving, just as recognizably his very own voice, even in the tiniest of his pieces, but certainly in the biggest of his pieces, the Pilgrim's Progress and most of the symphonies. ;-)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 17, 2020, 11:31:36 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 17, 2020, 02:15:43 PM
You're making me depressed, but you're right that this is part of life. Sometimes I wish novelty would not play such a big role in the appreciation and enjoyment that I derive from music. It would certainly save me a lot of money.

I just got this Decca 2CD the other day for $1 at a local record store:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/811bJrzKTcL._SL1200_.jpg)

I love the Vaughan Williams performances. Sir Neville and the Academy are perfect for this music.

What a great bargain!  Not only brilliant music but also a big shout out for Neville Marriner and his AoSMF.  YES they were so ubiquitous at one point that it is very easy looking back and thinking they recorded too much and it all becomes a bit formulaic but in fact they were brilliant musicians at the top of their game served by the best engineers and producers.  Marriner was a collaborative music maker who got the best people around him - the player lists of the AoSMF of the time really are a whos-whos of British orchestral players string players especially - and then let them make music with usually sparkling results.  Of course in all this repertoire there are other versions led/conducted by a more interventionist conductor that led to more individual results but I hear a joy and engagement in Marriner (and his players!) versions that are the equal of most and better than many.  Iona Brown's "Lark Ascending" here is a case in point - not my absolute favourite but very very good indeed......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 19, 2020, 01:34:31 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 17, 2020, 06:34:20 AM
It is like saying goodbye to an old friend and is upsetting. Happened to me this week listening to Prokofiev's 5th Symphony. Sadly the magic has gone, a favourite which I have listened many times - too many. The one consolation is that there are a constant supply of other and unheard works to explore.
OT
I've had a similar experiences with Prokofiev's 5th Symphony Lol; having said that it's coupled with the new recording of Weinberg's 5th Symphony so I will give it another listen to. Nos 3 and 6 still mean a lot to me however.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 19, 2020, 11:49:13 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 19, 2020, 01:34:31 AM
OT
I've had a similar experiences with Prokofiev's 5th Symphony Lol; having said that it's coupled with the new recording of Weinberg's 5th Symphony so I will give it another listen to. Nos 3 and 6 still mean a lot to me however.

Not by any means his highest rated but I also like the 7th a lot, Jeffrey. The big tune in the first movement is marvellous.

You mention Weinberg (symphonies on my to do list, after you know who) he is full of surprises. Listening to his 1st Violin Sonata, I was expecting a tough and sinewy work instead in the first movement I heard music akin to Mozart. A most pleasant surprise.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 20, 2020, 12:07:41 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 19, 2020, 11:49:13 PM
Not by any means his highest rated but I also like the 7th a lot, Jeffrey. The big tune in the first movement is marvellous.

You mention Weinberg (symphonies on my to do list, after you know who) he is full of surprises. Listening to his 1st Violin Sonata, I was expecting a tough and sinewy work instead in the first movement I heard music akin to Mozart. A most pleasant surprise.
I especially like symphonies 1,3,5 and 6 of those I know (5 is his masterpiece IMO) plus the Piano Quintet. He is a most interesting composer. I recently bought Symphony 21 but haven't got round to it yet.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 20, 2020, 02:50:44 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 20, 2020, 12:07:41 AM
I especially like symphonies 1,3,5 and 6 of those I know (5 is his masterpiece IMO) plus the Piano Quintet. He is a most interesting composer. I recently bought Symphony 21 but haven't got round to it yet.

Many thanks! #veryhelpful
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 05, 2020, 10:06:51 AM
[copied from the Listening thread, sorry!]

Playing the new Brabbins RVW 'A Pastoral' in order to compare it with the 2014 Sir Mark Elder version (Hallé). Find it very convincing, thus far, one of the most mystic readings ever (much of it conceived in and around the trenches of Northern France during WWI, there's almost no way to conceive the horror behind the notes, but mysticism certainly one of the better approaches:

To make things worse - for my reputation, if any  ;D - cannot but confirm that I find Brabbins performance of Symphony No. 4 very good too.

No, it isn't as bitter and harsh as the composer's own, conducting a fiercer account than any conductor ever since back in 1937, the clouds overshadowing so much of the news already (and he'd been serving in Northern France during WWI). And yes: other readings are much more sharp and biting as well, closer to the composer's "intentions" even.

But just as in 'A Pastoral Symphony' preceding it, Brabbins opts for the more mystical side of the score, stressing the fussy, dreamlike moments, not unlike the mists in RVW's best early orchestral work, In the Fenn Country (1904). No Vaughan Williams without mysticism: Brabbins knows it and acts after it. Very convincing new recording, closest to another underestimated one - for very similar reasons - Bryden Thomson's. #Amen  :D

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/034571282800.jpg?1569411575)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 05, 2020, 10:41:43 AM
Quote from: Christo on February 05, 2020, 10:06:51 AM
[copied from the Listening thread, sorry!]

Playing the new Brabbins RVW 'A Pastoral' in order to compare it with the 2014 Sir Mark Elder version (Hallé). Find it very convincing, thus far, one of the most mystic readings ever (much of it conceived in and around the trenches of Northern France during WWI, there's almost no way to conceive the horror behind the notes, but mysticism certainly one of the better approaches:

To make things worse - for my reputation, if any  ;D - cannot but confirm that I find Brabbins performance of Symphony No. 4 very good too.

No, it isn't as bitter and harsh as the composer's own, conducting a fiercer account than any conductor ever since back in 1937, the clouds overshadowing so much of the news already (and he'd been serving in Northern France during WWI). And yes: other readings are much more sharp and biting as well, closer to the composer's "intentions" even.

But just as in 'A Pastoral Symphony' preceding it, Brabbins opts for the more mystical side of the score, stressing the fussy, dreamlike moments, not unlike the mists in RVW's best early orchestral work, In the Fenn Country (1904). No Vaughan Williams without mysticism: Brabbins knows it and acts after it. Very convincing new recording, closest to another underestimated one - for very similar reasons - Bryden Thomson's. #Amen  :D

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/034571282800.jpg?1569411575)
Ok I have to listen to No.4. Very interesting and informative comments.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 05, 2020, 11:31:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2020, 10:41:43 AM
Ok I have to listen to No.4. Very interesting and informative comments.
Sorry for my rambling, typos & errors, was in a hurry, but the message is clear: superb cd, happy to have it.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 06, 2020, 01:33:22 AM
I am looking at the Boult RVW box at the moment (in a sort of Boult phase, as it were).

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51KfSIMzBoL._AC_UY327_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)

Is that Boult I ? Boult II ? the one to have please ?

I already have the EMI collectors edition but I believe only the Pilgrim's Progress and the odd work with Boult overlaps.

Otherwise, based on the members' listings found randomly in the thread (I went first 10 pages, 100-110, 200 to end  ;D), I am lining up some cheap used copies of the following as well, that seem to be recommended by many:

Barbirolli 2 & 8
Haitink 7
Previn 3
Thomson 9

I already have the Handley cycle (as his 5th came up), Bernstein NYP for the 4th (in his Sony symphony box), Hickox for the 2nd (1913 version).

i can't find a cheap copy of Berglund for 4 & 6. Anyone else ?  For my sins, I have recently sold the Andrew Davies cycle.

Will this Boult box cover 1 adequately (although this is a symphony much to my taste anyway)

Thank you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 06, 2020, 03:42:02 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 06, 2020, 01:33:22 AM
I am looking at the Boult RVW box at the moment (in a sort of Boult phase, as it were).

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51KfSIMzBoL._AC_UY327_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)
Is that Boult I ? Boult II ? the one to have please ?
I already have the EMI collectors edition but I believe only the Pilgrim's Progress and the odd work with Boult overlaps.
Otherwise, based on the members' listings found randomly in the thread (I went first 10 pages, 100-110, 200 to end  ;D), I am lining up some cheap used copies of the following as well, that seem to be recommended by many:
Barbirolli 2 & 8
Haitink 7
Previn 3
Thomson 9
I already have the Handley cycle (as his 5th came up), Bernstein NYP for the 4th (in his Sony symphony box), Hickox for the 2nd (1913 version).
i can't find a cheap copy of Berglund for 4 & 6. Anyone else ?  For my sins, I have recently sold the Andrew Davies cycle.
Will this Boult box cover 1 adequately (although this is a symphony much to my taste anyway)

Thank you.

If I had to go for one older box set it would be Previn/LSO (it seems quite pricey at the moment) but the Boult box (which is the later cycle) is very good.  And all the additional music is a real plus as the Previn has just a couple of fillers.  I spotted a way around the "Pilgrims" duplication and saving some money too with Boult;

On Amazon at the moment you can get this;

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41JJS2NJ59L.jpg)

for around £2.50 inc. p&p

and this set

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61zzHctEDmL.jpg)

for around £8.50 inc. p&p

so about £11.00 in your hand and that covers most of the music you are searching for.  Not sure if this symphony set was ever remastered or if it was how much the sound improved.  I have all the original CD releases and find them very good.  To find those sets above I just searched "boult vaughan williams"
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 06, 2020, 08:52:36 AM
Hi RS,

Thank you for the feedback and the cheaper options. I rechecked the contents of the Collector's edition and there is actually much more Boult than i originally picked up on (including CD 7 & 8 off the blue box and most of the other CD). I think I might just get this blue cycle anyway given how cheap it is and live with the overlap.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 06, 2020, 01:24:51 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 06, 2020, 01:33:22 AM
I am looking at the Boult RVW box at the moment (in a sort of Boult phase, as it were).

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51KfSIMzBoL._AC_UY327_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)

Is that Boult I ? Boult II ? the one to have please ?

I already have the EMI collectors edition but I believe only the Pilgrim's Progress and the odd work with Boult overlaps.

Otherwise, based on the members' listings found randomly in the thread (I went first 10 pages, 100-110, 200 to end  ;D), I am lining up some cheap used copies of the following as well, that seem to be recommended by many:

Barbirolli 2 & 8
Haitink 7
Previn 3
Thomson 9

I already have the Handley cycle (as his 5th came up), Bernstein NYP for the 4th (in his Sony symphony box), Hickox for the 2nd (1913 version).

i can't find a cheap copy of Berglund for 4 & 6. Anyone else ?  For my sins, I have recently sold the Andrew Davies cycle.

Will this Boult box cover 1 adequately (although this is a symphony much to my taste anyway)

Thank you.
I prefer the earlier Decca/Everest Boult cycle but you can't really go wrong with either Olivier. You get short speeches by Boult and VW on the earlier set as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 07, 2020, 12:26:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 06, 2020, 01:24:51 PM
I prefer the earlier Decca/Everest Boult cycle but you can't really go wrong with either Olivier. You get short speeches by Boult and VW on the earlier set as well.

Should be pointed out that with the exception of 9th, and the 8th I think, the earlier Decca set are not true stereo. This doesn't bother me in the slightest but may other listeners. I agree the Decca set is preferable but I would not be without either, on CD and LP. ;) I could not live without Previn as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 07, 2020, 12:00:39 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 06, 2020, 03:42:02 AM
If I had to go for one older box set it would be Previn/LSO (it seems quite pricey at the moment) but the Boult box (which is the later cycle) is very good.  And all the additional music is a real plus as the Previn has just a couple of fillers.  I spotted a way around the "Pilgrims" duplication and saving some money too with Boult;

On Amazon at the moment you can get this;

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41JJS2NJ59L.jpg)

for around £2.50 inc. p&p

and this set

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61zzHctEDmL.jpg)

for around £8.50 inc. p&p

so about £11.00 in your hand and that covers most of the music you are searching for.  Not sure if this symphony set was ever remastered or if it was how much the sound improved.  I have all the original CD releases and find them very good.  To find those sets above I just searched "boult vaughan williams"
Those seem amazing value, especially the blue VW box.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 07, 2020, 12:52:31 PM
thank you for the additional inputs. I have ordered the Blue boult box £8.28 delivered. No-brainer. thanks again RS.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 10, 2020, 06:40:42 AM
Are these ones the same recordings please ? If not, which is the recommended one ? and/or the best sound quality please ? Thank you.

[asin]B002SQC83G[/asin]
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Bytwh5iXL._AC_UL480_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91PgO22Ae-L._AC_UL480_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)
[asin]B00005JJ19[/asin]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 10, 2020, 09:06:37 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 10, 2020, 06:40:42 AM
Are these ones the same recordings please ? If not, which is the recommended one ? and/or the best sound quality please ? Thank you.

[asin]B002SQC83G[/asin]
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Bytwh5iXL._AC_UL480_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91PgO22Ae-L._AC_UL480_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)
[asin]B00005JJ19[/asin]

I can only see two images Olivier (top and bottom). They are the same recording. The Barbirolli Society issued a separate recording of Barbirolli conducting the premiere of Symphony No.8.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 10, 2020, 10:10:33 AM
Thanks Jeffrey.
The 2nd CD is the EMI Phoenix. The 3rd is on Nixa. Both with the 2nd and 8th combo as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 10, 2020, 12:20:53 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 10, 2020, 10:10:33 AM
Thanks Jeffrey.
The 2nd CD is the EMI Phoenix. The 3rd is on Nixa. Both with the 2nd and 8th combo as well.

There are actually FOUR different recordings of RVW 8 under Barbirolli available.  8) To make things worse: at least two of them also under a couple of (different) CD labels.
You could take these indications of the timings of each of the four movements as a clue to identify each of your copies:

1.   Barbirolli / Hallé 1956 live premiere   10.14   03.36   07.58   05.02
2.   Barbirolli / Hallé 1959                      10.08   03.37   07.43   04.58
3.   Barbirolli / Hallé live Lugano 1961    10.26   03.32   08.05   05.19
4.   Barbirolli / Hallé live Proms 1967      11.31   03.43   08.39   05.53    :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 10, 2020, 03:40:43 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 10, 2020, 10:10:33 AM
Thanks Jeffrey.
The 2nd CD is the EMI Phoenix. The 3rd is on Nixa. Both with the 2nd and 8th combo as well.
I think that, bearing in mind Christo's list of recordings, all of your recordings are of No.2 Olivier. That is the one which has been more generally in circulation. I think that the Phoenix was the first CD release, the Dutton was the second and the Barbirolli Society was the most recent of that famous old recording. I have all three of them  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 11, 2020, 12:14:56 AM
Released on LP as -

(https://a10.gaanacdn.com/gn_img/albums/dwN39y83DP/wN39myOX3D/size_xxl.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2020, 01:04:37 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 11, 2020, 12:14:56 AM
Released on LP as -

(https://a10.gaanacdn.com/gn_img/albums/dwN39y83DP/wN39myOX3D/size_xxl.jpg)

I remember that LP. I like your John Ireland quote Lol. Sounds very typical of him!

I had this LP of it and there's an earlier one featuring a rather fine photograph of the composer:


(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 11, 2020, 06:12:38 AM
Thank you for the information, Gentlemen. I'll order one of them soon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 11, 2020, 06:22:37 AM
What is your favorite recording of Symphony No. 6?  I especially like very slow final movement.

My favorite is probably Boult/New Philharmonia Orchestra.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bbytm4cuL.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 11, 2020, 07:34:43 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 11, 2020, 06:22:37 AM
What is your favorite recording of Symphony No. 6?  I especially like very slow final movement.

My favorite is probably Boult/New Philharmonia Orchestra.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bbytm4cuL.jpg)

Yes, probably mine as well, but Berglund is excellent too.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0657/8937/products/P1014319_large.jpg?v=1578824059)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 11, 2020, 07:46:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 11, 2020, 01:04:37 AM
I remember that LP. I like your John Ireland quote Lol. Sounds very typical of him!

I had this LP of it and there's an earlier one featuring a rather fine photograph of the composer:


(//)

Wow, long forgotten on my part that the Barbirolli RVW 8th, along with Bax and Butterworth was a Mercury recording!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on February 11, 2020, 07:59:23 AM
Symphony No. 7: Sinfonia Antartica



Boult:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/CX8AAOSw3pZa~UOw/s-l1600.jpg)



Boult gives a strong, robust, atmospheric and evocative account of this work.





Previn:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)



Previn gives a strong account of this fine work. However, in this case, I do not like the inclusion of the suggested narrative in this recording.




This work to me is like a Tone Poem in its approach to depicting the harsh environment and life of the Antarctic. It uses a multitude of instrumental effects to achieve this depiction including a wind machine as well as a soprano and choir singing an eerie vocalise [I can never listen to this element of the composition without being reminded of Holst's Neptune]. The music is as harsh, bleak and brutal as the world it depicts and is very effective and evocative as a result. I really like the musical language and scoring of this work. I particularly like the writing and evocation in the Scherzo [especially as interpreted by Boult] which I think is very effective.

Just on a personal note I do not concur with the composer's optimism scattered throughout the work's first movement in terms of Man's successful encounters in this region of the globe. Perhaps this movement is more concerned with Man's Endeavour and Spirit. I rather concur with his thoughts as reflected in the Landscape movement. I think that the very harsh reality is that Nature rules here; Man can survive and adapt but not dominate nearly as much as he has done elsewhere.

As an additional comment this is one case where I can categorically say that I have a preference for either Boult or Previn; in this case I favour Boult. Although Previn's is an account that is full and filled with power, I do find that the Boult version has a greater grasp of the subtleties and finer moments of this work.



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2020, 08:00:39 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 11, 2020, 06:22:37 AM
What is your favorite recording of Symphony No. 6?  I especially like very slow final movement.

My favorite is probably Boult/New Philharmonia Orchestra.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bbytm4cuL.jpg)

That Boult is very good as is the sibelian Berglund recording. My favourite, however, is Boult's second recording made with the LPO and the composer in the studio (he makes a speech at the end). I have never found the epilogue sound more atmospheric. There's an element of nostalgia in this due to the overwhelming effect that this recording had on my 16 or 17 year old self. It's available on a not very well transferred Belart CD and in a much better processed Decca boxed set of the earlier Boult symphony cycle, which also features the Everest recording of the Ninth Symphony made a few hours after the composer died in 1958 (he had intended to attend the recording session). Boult makes a tribute speech at the start. The Symphony No.6 is IMO very difficult to get right on disc and I think that there are few entirely successful recordings. Abravanel with his Utah Orchestra are impressive as are Thomson, Davis and Haitink:

(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2020, 08:08:33 AM
Quote from: aligreto on February 11, 2020, 07:59:23 AM
Symphony No. 7: Sinfonia Antartica



Boult:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/CX8AAOSw3pZa~UOw/s-l1600.jpg)



Boult gives a strong, robust, atmospheric and evocative account of this work.





Previn:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)



Previn gives a strong account of this fine work. However, in this case, I do not like the inclusion of the suggested narrative in this recording.




This work to me is like a Tone Poem in its approach to depicting the harsh environment and life of the Antarctic. It uses a multitude of instrumental effects to achieve this depiction including a wind machine as well as a soprano and choir singing an eerie vocalise [I can never listen to this element of the composition without being reminded of Holst's Neptune]. The music is as harsh, bleak and brutal as the world it depicts and is very effective and evocative as a result. I really like the musical language and scoring of this work. I particularly like the writing and evocation in the Scherzo [especially as interpreted by Boult] which I think is very effective.

Just on a personal note I do not concur with the composer's optimism scattered throughout the work's first movement in terms of Man's successful encounters in this region of the globe. Perhaps this movement is more concerned with Man's Endeavour and Spirit. I rather concur with his thoughts as reflected in the Landscape movement. I think that the very harsh reality is that Nature rules here; Man can survive and adapt but not dominate nearly as much as he has done elsewhere.

As an additional comment this is one case where I can categorically say that I have a preference for either Boult or Previn; in this case I favour Boult. Although Previn's is an account that is full and filled with power, I do find that the Boult version has a greater grasp of the subtleties and finer moments of this work.
Interesting analysis Fergus. I think that Boult's oddly impersonal way with Vaughan Williams really suits symphonies 6 and 7, both of which I think show, as you suggest, the influence of Holst, especially Saturn and Neptune from 'The Planets'. As with Symphony No.6 much as I admire the EMI version I prefer the earlier Decca recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2020, 08:24:16 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 11, 2020, 06:22:37 AM
What is your favorite recording of Symphony No. 6?  I especially like very slow final movement. My favorite is probably Boult/New Philharmonia Orchestra.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bbytm4cuL.jpg)

I'm with Vandermolen; Boult/(Decca) is my favorite though Boult/EMI is a runner-up along with Berglund and Haitink.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 11, 2020, 08:52:24 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 11, 2020, 06:22:37 AM
What is your favorite recording of Symphony No. 6?  I especially like very slow final movement.

My favorite is probably Boult/New Philharmonia Orchestra.

Mine too. I also like Handley.

This is a hard symphony to get right. Some highly praised recordings never clicked with me (A. Davis, Previn, Stokowski).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on February 11, 2020, 09:01:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 11, 2020, 08:08:33 AM
Interesting analysis Fergus. I think that Boult's oddly impersonal way with Vaughan Williams really suits symphonies 6 and 7, both of which I think show, as you suggest, the influence of Holst, especially Saturn and Neptune from 'The Planets'. As with Symphony No.6 much as I admire the EMI version I prefer the earlier Decca recording.


Cheers Jeffrey. I do of course have the earlier Decca recording on CD but for some reason I did not think to compare the two [another senior moment  ::)]. I must do that soon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on February 11, 2020, 09:53:17 AM
For the 6th I like the Andrew Davis/BBC SO recording.  There's a lot of interesting orchestral colour in the first three movements of the 6th, and it really benefits from a more modern recording than the Boult or Previn classics

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91LsoOQLrEL._SS500_.jpg).

Now just a moment to agree with all those who have already praised the new Brabbins recording of the 3rd.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/7183%2B1npE6L._AC_SL1200_.jpg)

I've always enjoyed the 3rd Symphony (of course) but I've always had difficulty finding any points of difference in the various versions, tempi and general approach to this music seem pretty set in stone (and Brabbins is no exception).  What elevates this above the rest for me is the sheer lucidity and detail in this recording, bringing a whole new layer of interest to music that can otherwise seem perilously close to 'bland'.  And I love the restraint in the finale, with the soprano pushed well back in the mix, much more so than in most other recordings - that's perfect!

I listened to 'Helen' as well - sounds like a dry run for Serenade to Music - which is twice as long and therefore twice as good.  Not plucked up courage for the 4th yet.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 12, 2020, 10:22:23 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 11, 2020, 09:53:17 AM
For the 6th I like the Andrew Davis/BBC SO recording.  There's a lot of interesting orchestral colour in the first three movements of the 6th, and it really benefits from a more modern recording than the Boult or Previn classics

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91LsoOQLrEL._SS500_.jpg).

Now just a moment to agree with all those who have already praised the new Brabbins recording of the 3rd.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/7183%2B1npE6L._AC_SL1200_.jpg)

I've always enjoyed the 3rd Symphony (of course) but I've always had difficulty finding any points of difference in the various versions, tempi and general approach to this music seem pretty set in stone (and Brabbins is no exception).  What elevates this above the rest for me is the sheer lucidity and detail in this recording, bringing a whole new layer of interest to music that can otherwise seem perilously close to 'bland'.  And I love the restraint in the finale, with the soprano pushed well back in the mix, much more so than in most other recordings - that's perfect!

I listened to 'Helen' as well - sounds like a dry run for Serenade to Music - which is twice as long and therefore twice as good.  Not plucked up courage for the 4th yet.
Interesting points and I very much agree with your comment on the 'lucidity' and 'detail' on the new Brabbins recording of 'A Pastoral Symphony'. I also haven't plucked up the courage for No.4! Opinion on the Andrew Davis recording of Symphony No.6 is rather divided on this forum but I think that it is one of the few successful recordings of this work - I must give it another listen to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 13, 2020, 12:28:43 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 11, 2020, 09:53:17 AM

I've always enjoyed the 3rd Symphony (of course) but I've always had difficulty finding any points of difference in the various versions, tempi and general approach to this music seem pretty set in stone (and Brabbins is no exception).  What elevates this above the rest for me is the sheer lucidity and detail in this recording, bringing a whole new layer of interest to music that can otherwise seem perilously close to 'bland'.  And I love the restraint in the finale, with the soprano pushed well back in the mix, much more so than in most other recordings - that's perfect!

I listened to 'Helen' as well - sounds like a dry run for Serenade to Music - which is twice as long and therefore twice as good.  Not plucked up courage for the 4th yet.

Just to slightly stir the pot.  I think Brabbins is very good in No.3 and not nearly so good in No.4.  I've read other people appreciating the gentler aspects of No.4 but that seems to me to miss the point.  A bit like buying a racing car and then using it to potter to the shops!  I would agree that Brabbins does achieve a sense of repose and contemplation in No.3 that is effective and touching but surely the lucidity and detail mentioned are as much a tribute to the producer/engineer as Brabbins?  Certainly the prominent harp and some clear wind detail is achieved on the mixing desk (which is fine) not the podium.  Likewise the soprano - which should be "distant" (as marked in the score) - how well it is achieved here - I agree very well - is a technical success.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2020, 12:47:23 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 13, 2020, 12:28:43 AM
Just to slightly stir the pot.  I think Brabbins is very good in No.3 and not nearly so good in No.4.  I've read other people appreciating the gentler aspects of No.4 but that seems to me to miss the point.  A bit like buying a racing car and then using it to potter to the shops!  I would agree that Brabbins does achieve a sense of repose and contemplation in No.3 that is effective and touching but surely the lucidity and detail mentioned are as much a tribute to the producer/engineer as Brabbins?  Certainly the prominent harp and some clear wind detail is achieved on the mixing desk (which is fine) not the podium.  Likewise the soprano - which should be "distant" (as marked in the score) - how well it is achieved here - I agree very well - is a technical success.
I liked your racing car analogy RS - made me laugh out loud. That's just the sort of thing I'd do if I could afford a racing car!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 13, 2020, 02:35:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 12, 2020, 10:22:23 PM
Opinion on the Andrew Davis recording of Symphony No.6 is rather divided on this forum but I think that it is one of the few successful recordings of this work - I must give it another listen to.

Let's be honest: I find it no more than okayish, certainly not one of my favourites. It's very very straightforward - and that's about it.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on February 13, 2020, 04:25:32 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 13, 2020, 12:28:43 AM
I would agree that Brabbins does achieve a sense of repose and contemplation in No.3 that is effective and touching but surely the lucidity and detail mentioned are as much a tribute to the producer/engineer as Brabbins?  Certainly the prominent harp and some clear wind detail is achieved on the mixing desk (which is fine) not the podium.  Likewise the soprano - which should be "distant" (as marked in the score) - how well it is achieved here - I agree very well - is a technical success.

Of course.  I use 'Brabbins' or 'Previn' etc as a convenient shorthand to identify a recording, according to what is available to us on the front cover.  The production team are not normally credited on the front.  And in fact I mentioned that (to me) Brabbins is no different from other conductors of this symphony, in general approach (tempi etc).  I said:
Quote from: aukhawk on February 11, 2020, 09:53:17 AM
What elevates this above the rest for me is the sheer lucidity and detail in this recording, bringing a whole new layer of interest to music that can otherwise seem perilously close to 'bland'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 13, 2020, 05:39:40 AM
Quote from: aligreto on February 11, 2020, 07:59:23 AM
Symphony No. 7: Sinfonia Antartica

Just on a personal note I do not concur with the composer's optimism scattered throughout the work's first movement in terms of Man's successful encounters in this region of the globe. Perhaps this movement is more concerned with Man's Endeavour and Spirit. I rather concur with his thoughts as reflected in the Landscape movement. I think that the very harsh reality is that Nature rules here; Man can survive and adapt but not dominate nearly as much as he has done elsewhere.

The work's optimism isn't about man's successful encounters in that region of the globe but man's enduring spirit in the face of adversity.  The movie ends with Scott's grave and a close up of the words "To strive to seek...to find...and not to yield" to the rousing music that ends the first movement.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 13, 2020, 08:29:48 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 13, 2020, 04:25:32 AM
Of course.  I use 'Brabbins' or 'Previn' etc as a convenient shorthand to identify a recording, according to what is available to us on the front cover.  The production team are not normally credited on the front.  And in fact I mentioned that (to me) Brabbins is no different from other conductors of this symphony, in general approach (tempi etc).  I said:

Fair points all!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 13, 2020, 08:52:09 AM
The "House of Life (Rossetti) " and "Songs of Travel (Stevenson)" in piano version are bloody superb.

There.

Back to rummaging that box.

As you were.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2020, 10:30:55 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 13, 2020, 08:52:09 AM
The "House of Life (Rossetti) " and "Songs of Travel (Stevenson)" in piano version are bloody superb.

There.

Back to rummaging that box.

As you were.
I like both versions of the 'Songs of Travel' very much. The orchestral version must be one of a very VW works conducted by Simon Rattle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 13, 2020, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 13, 2020, 10:30:55 AM
I like both versions of the 'Songs of Travel' very much. The orchestral version must be one of a very VW works conducted by Simon Rattle.

The orchestral version did not work for me at all, and now that I see it is with Rattle, that explains it (never clicked with anything conducted by him, just always feeling flat  :blank:). the piano version was a revelation in comparison, among many other works so far.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 13, 2020, 11:23:37 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 13, 2020, 11:09:35 AM
.with Rattle, that explains it (never clicked with anything conducted by him, just always feeling flat  :blank:).

See what you mean ('Much Ado About Not-Really-That-Much', a well-known comedy), yet he did some really fine recordings, like:

(https://www.apesound.de/out/pictures/master/product/1/szyman1.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2020, 01:49:29 PM
Quote from: Christo on February 13, 2020, 11:23:37 AM
See what you mean ('Much Ado About Not-Really-That-Much', a well-known comedy), yet he did some really fine recordings, like:

(https://www.apesound.de/out/pictures/master/product/1/szyman1.jpg)
Yes, the Szymanowski is a fine CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 13, 2020, 04:44:14 PM
Damn, the No. 6 with Boult/LPO was so good.  My new favorite and top of list.  The slow final movement really makes this movement but also the first movement is incredibly intense in this performance.  Top notch.  I'm so glad that RVW agreed with me on the finale.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Daverz on February 13, 2020, 07:44:15 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2020, 08:24:16 AM
I'm with Vandermolen; Boult/(Decca) is my favorite though Boult/EMI is a runner-up along with Berglund and Haitink.

Sarge

Agree on the Boult/EMI.  Have not heard the Decca (I paid for 2 speakers, dammit).  Had forgotten the EMI was with the Philharmonia rather than LPO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2020, 10:07:46 PM
Quote from: Daverz on February 13, 2020, 07:44:15 PM
Agree on the Boult/EMI.  Have not heard the Decca (I paid for 2 speakers, dammit).  Had forgotten the EMI was with the Philharmonia rather than LPO.
You have to hear the Decca!
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 13, 2020, 10:37:35 PM
Quote from: relm1 on February 13, 2020, 04:44:14 PMI'm so glad that RVW agreed with me on the finale.

Do you have it in writing?  ???
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 14, 2020, 06:25:23 AM
Quote from: Christo on February 13, 2020, 10:37:35 PM
Do you have it in writing?  ???

It's based on his speech at the end of the album where he references "a wonderful performance of the epilogue...absolute pianissimo full of meaning and tension". 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 14, 2020, 07:09:46 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 14, 2020, 06:25:23 AM
It's based on his speech at the end of the album where he references "a wonderful performance of the epilogue...absolute pianissimo full of meaning and tension".

Not to mention his thanks to 'the lady harpist'.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 14, 2020, 08:51:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 14, 2020, 07:09:46 AM
Not to mention his thanks to 'the lady harpist'.
:)

.. and, of course, a wonderful epilogue, absolute pianissimo full of meaning and tension "for three hours on end", IRCC  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on February 19, 2020, 10:20:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 11, 2020, 08:08:33 AM
.... As with Symphony No.6 much as I admire the EMI version I prefer the earlier Decca recording.


Comparison of Boul't EMI/Decca recordings:



(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/CX8AAOSw3pZa~UOw/s-l1600.jpg)    (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Dg2OzqwwL._SS500_.jpg)




I have now done an A/B listening comparison test between both the EMI and the Decca recordings. The Decca is, I agree, far more robust, assertive and intense in its presentation and has a far greater presence and atmosphere as a result over the EMI version. There is not much wrong with the EMI recording but the Decca recording takes the presentation to another level. However, as in the case with Previn, I do not like the inclusion of the suggested narrative in the Decca recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 19, 2020, 12:57:39 PM
Quote from: aligreto on February 19, 2020, 10:20:28 AM
Comparison of Boul't EMI/Decca recordings:



(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/CX8AAOSw3pZa~UOw/s-l1600.jpg)    (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Dg2OzqwwL._SS500_.jpg)




I have now done an A/B listening comparison test between both the EMI and the Decca recordings. The Decca is, I agree, far more robust, assertive and intense in its presentation and has a far greater presence and atmosphere as a result over the EMI version. There is not much wrong with the EMI recording but the Decca recording takes the presentation to another level. However, as in the case with Previn, I do not like the inclusion of the suggested narrative in the Decca recording.
Interesting. Thanks for that Fergus. I'll be interested to hear what you make of the other symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on February 21, 2020, 07:17:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 19, 2020, 12:57:39 PM
I'll be interested to hear what you make of the other symphonies.

Coming soon to a thread near you  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 22, 2020, 12:31:45 AM
Quote from: aligreto on February 21, 2020, 07:17:21 AM
Coming soon to a thread near you  ;D
Excellent!
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 22, 2020, 04:50:05 AM
post of 6th Feb 2020 : have the Handley cycle, Hickox 2 (1913), Sold the Davis cycle... what should I order....

As of today, 22nd Feb 2020...

Received and enjoyed greatly:

- Previn 3-4
- Haitink 7
- Barbirolli 2-8
- Boult EMI (listened and thrilled by 4-6-8-9 so far, others to be listened to yet - the "fillers" I went through mostly in the Collectors edition in this last fortnight and loved them already)
- Mellers book on the reading pile. Looking at Kennedy's and Day's.

on the way:

- Thomson 6
- Thomson 9
- Previn full cycle
- Bakels 5-9

Soon to be bought :

- Thomson 2-3-4-5-8
- Haitink full cycle (sarge's advocacies have a good track record with me in other composers...the slowness would appeal to me i think once I am more familiar with the "normal" versions)

The symphonies are slowing imprinting... 2 with the lento, 3 with the bugler/trumpet, 4 & 6 with the rage and anger, 5 with the tears- inducing romanza, 7 with the chills, 8 & 9... for their mishmash...  ;D

Been going through the full collectors edition as well...

Standout works for far in no particular order : Lark, Serenade to music, Piano Cto (1 piano version), Oboe Concerto, Towards the unknown region, dona Nobis Pacem, Job, Wasps, English Folk songs suite, Tallis, Greensleeves, Norfolk Rhapsody 1, Mass in G minor, Tuba Cto, Wenlock, Fen Country, Ten Blake Songs, Travel songs (piano version), House of Life, concerto Grosso, The Truth from above, Poisoned kiss, Old King Cole...-

Partial misses or dislikes: the string quartets, Violin sonata, most of the hymnal music, Xmas Carols fantasia, mystical songs, Partita for double orchestra, Prelude and Fugue, Romance...plenty yet to go through though.

I've read through most of the 222 pages here and the contributions and knowledge here have been invaluable, thank you. Ralph and I have properly clicked...at last... given the response i have to his music right now, it may head straight for a personal top 5....maybe 3.... now that would be something...

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2020, 05:10:51 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2020, 04:50:05 AM
Ralph and I have properly clicked...at last...

Excellent! Quite happy to read that. Vaughan Williams is one of my top 10 composers. I'm glad he's made a positive impact on you too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 22, 2020, 10:55:21 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2020, 05:10:51 AM
Excellent! Quite happy to read that. Vaughan Williams is one of my top 10 composers. I'm glad he's made a positive impact on you too.

Sarge
+1
I wonder what Olivier will make of 'Riders to the Sea' and Pilgrim's Progress.

Other works I didn't notice on Olivier's list are:

Sancta Civitas (perhaps his greatest choral work)
Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus (which VW chose to have performed at his funeral)
Job: A Masque for Dancing
I like the fill-ups on Hickox's CD of Symphony No.5 such as The Pilgrim's Pavement.

As for books, if you can find a copy I'd recommend Roy Douglas's short book 'Working with RVW'. I had the pleasure of having tea with Roy Douglas (who lived to be over 100) as he lived locally.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on February 23, 2020, 12:30:07 AM
Five Tudor Portraits.
A mixed bag but I like the middle three - Pretty Bess, Epitaph, Jane Scroop - very much.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 23, 2020, 12:34:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 22, 2020, 10:55:21 PM
Other works I didn't notice on Olivier's list are:

Sancta Civitas (perhaps his greatest choral work)
Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus (which VW chose to have performed at his funeral)
Job: A Masque for Dancing
I like the fill-ups on Hickox's CD of Symphony No.5 such as The Pilgrim's Pavement.

As for books, if you can find a copy I'd recommend Roy Douglas's short book 'Working with RVW'. I had the pleasure of having tea with Roy Douglas (who lived to be over 100) as he lived locally.

+1 for all the above although for me the Dona Nobis Pacem pushes Sancta Civitas close and also the G minor Mass is simply transcendent.  The 5 Tudor Portraits is one of my least favourite RVW works.  Just a bit too hale and hearty (even when its being sad!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 23, 2020, 01:36:50 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 23, 2020, 12:34:49 AM
+1 for all the above although for me the Dona Nobis Pacem pushes Sancta Civitas close and also the G minor Mass is simply transcendent.  The 5 Tudor Portraits is one of my least favourite RVW works.  Just a bit too hale and hearty (even when its being sad!)
Agree about DNP. The Tudor Portraits has grown on me over the years despite its 'Yea Old English Tea Shoppe' aspects which doesn't appeal to me (especially the 'Drunken Alice' section which, like Shakespeare's humour IMO, probably had them rolling in the aisles with laughter in 1603 but leaves me stone cold). However, other sections I like very much. Coincidentally am listening to Symphony No.4 Brabbins, which I don't think you liked very much. I liked the opening movement very much, especially the lyrical treatment of the second subject which gives it a searching, visionary quality which I had not picked up so well in other performances. The performance IMO flags a bit in the middle and I haven't got to the end yet. Not as great a performance as 'A Pastoral Symphony' but I am enjoying this valid take on Symphony No.4  (as I do Neville Marriner's oddly compassionate recording of the 6th Symphony) and I will continue to collect the Brabbins cycle of symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 23, 2020, 06:39:11 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2020, 04:50:05 AM
post of 6th Feb 2020 : have the Handley cycle, Hickox 2 (1913), Sold the Davis cycle... what should I order....

As of today, 22nd Feb 2020...

Received and enjoyed greatly:

- Previn 3-4
- Haitink 7
- Barbirolli 2-8
- Boult EMI (listened and thrilled by 4-6-8-9 so far, others to be listened to yet - the "fillers" I went through mostly in the Collectors edition in this last fortnight and loved them already)
- Mellers book on the reading pile. Looking at Kennedy's and Day's.

on the way:

- Thomson 6
- Thomson 9
- Previn full cycle
- Bakels 5-9

Soon to be bought :

- Thomson 2-3-4-5-8
- Haitink full cycle (sarge's advocacies have a good track record with me in other composers...the slowness would appeal to me i think once I am more familiar with the "normal" versions)

The symphonies are slowing imprinting... 2 with the lento, 3 with the bugler/trumpet, 4 & 6 with the rage and anger, 5 with the tears- inducing romanza, 7 with the chills, 8 & 9... for their mishmash...  ;D

Been going through the full collectors edition as well...

Standout works for far in no particular order : Lark, Serenade to music, Piano Cto (1 piano version), Oboe Concerto, Towards the unknown region, dona Nobis Pacem, Job, Wasps, English Folk songs suite, Tallis, Greensleeves, Norfolk Rhapsody 1, Mass in G minor, Tuba Cto, Wenlock, Fen Country, Ten Blake Songs, Travel songs (piano version), House of Life, concerto Grosso, The Truth from above, Poisoned kiss, Old King Cole...-

Partial misses or dislikes: the string quartets, Violin sonata, most of the hymnal music, Xmas Carols fantasia, mystical songs, Partita for double orchestra, Prelude and Fugue, Romance...plenty yet to go through though.

I've read through most of the 222 pages here and the contributions and knowledge here have been invaluable, thank you. Ralph and I have properly clicked...at last... given the response i have to his music right now, it may head straight for a personal top 5....maybe 3.... now that would be something...

Wonderful, wonderful. Agree very much with Vandermolen (Jeffrey) on the qualities of the 'old' (Decca, mono) Boult recordings. e.g. the Sixth in this reading simply more powerful than the redo for EMI.

As about Symphony no. 6: three winners, for me, clearly stand out: Boult (Decca), Paavo Berglund and the Thompson. Davis very pale in comparison, IMHO.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on February 23, 2020, 07:24:32 AM
I haven't heard the Boult Decca recording of No 6 but my preference is for his first EMI recording (1949/50) with the LSO. RVW revised the Scherzo after this recording and Boult returned to the studio to record it. The Dutton release has both versions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 23, 2020, 08:16:37 AM
Quote from: Biffo on February 23, 2020, 07:24:32 AM
I haven't heard the Boult Decca recording of No 6 but my preference is for his first EMI recording (1949/50) with the LSO. RVW revised the Scherzo after this recording and Boult returned to the studio to record it. The Dutton release has both versions.

Me too, that's the one I'm referring at, always confuse the recordings companies (don't have them at hand, here in the Giant's Mountains). The 1949-50 recording it is: glorious.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 23, 2020, 01:22:17 PM
I prefer the old Decca version (LPO not LSO) with VW's speech at the end but that was the first version I ever heard and nothing has quite lived up to it for me.
Agree with Johan (Christo) about the merits of Thompson and Berglund recordings. Abravanel is good too IMO nicely coupled on Vanguard with Dona Nobis Pacem (the LP was my first encounter with the work - purchased in a second hand LP shop in Manchester - as I was on the train about to set off back to London I thought I'd check the condition of the vinyl, only to discover, to me horror, that they had inserted the wrong disc - Schubert's 'Trout Quintet'  :o and I had to make a dramatic exit from the train). The Vanguard CD below has recently been reissued for around £5.00 which is excellent value.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 23, 2020, 09:58:27 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 23, 2020, 01:22:17 PM
I prefer the old Decca version (LPO not LSO) with VW's speech at the end but that was the first version I ever heard and nothing has quite lived up to it for me.

That one (you weer all cheating me with details about recording companies and dates I couldn't check nor Czech (beer) here. 😀
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 23, 2020, 10:22:10 PM
Quote from: Christo on February 23, 2020, 09:58:27 PM
That one (you weer all cheating me with details about recording companies and dates I couldn't check nor Czech (beer) here. 😀
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 24, 2020, 05:39:03 AM
I've dug out an old copy of BBC Music Magazine's 'Top 1000 CDs Guide' (1998 edition) which recommends Bryden Thompson's recording of Symphony No.6. Interestingly it states that:

'Command of the ardour, menace and baleful violence of the first three movements (Andrew Davis, Vernon Handley, Previn) doesn't guarantee ability to sustain the miasmic tension of that Sphinx-like finale, whose undulating, almost expressionless lines convey ultimate elegiac pathos while never rising above pianissimo...Iron discipline in needed in performance, but Slatkin (like Kees Bakels on Naxos) seems to achieve it at the expense of the other movements' tensions. Boult, on mid-price EMI (coupled with Symphony No.4) remains a strong recommendation, though even his finale lacks something. Bryden Thompson, despite the slightly cavernous Chandos sound delivers the most cogent performance of his cycle; the first movement opening is a little ponderous, but from the mechanistic march-rhythms that herald the second group all goes splendidly, and there is a rapt, frozen beauty to the finale.'

I may well have posted this before but can't be bothered to track backwards through the posts. Personally I quite like the cavernous Chandos sound:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 24, 2020, 07:40:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2020, 05:10:51 AM
Excellent! Quite happy to read that. Vaughan Williams is one of my top 10 composers. I'm glad he's made a positive impact on you too.

Sarge

Cheers Sarge, took its sweet time, didn't it...nice feeling now, though...  0:) :-[

Quote from: vandermolen on February 22, 2020, 10:55:21 PM
+1
I wonder what Olivier will make of 'Riders to the Sea' and Pilgrim's Progress.

Other works I didn't notice on Olivier's list are:

Sancta Civitas (perhaps his greatest choral work)
Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus (which VW chose to have performed at his funeral)
Job: A Masque for Dancing
I like the fill-ups on Hickox's CD of Symphony No.5 such as The Pilgrim's Pavement.

As for books, if you can find a copy I'd recommend Roy Douglas's short book 'Working with RVW'. I had the pleasure of having tea with Roy Douglas (who lived to be over 100) as he lived locally.


Job is in the + list already, Jeffrey  ;)

The main works I have left to go through properly are : concerto Accademico, Oxford elegy, Santa Civitas, Flos Campi (although enjoyed that one before), Tudor portraits, Dives & Lazarus, Hodie, all the folk songs CDs (enjoyed some before as well), Ephitalamion, Riders to the sea, Hugh the Drover, Sir John in Love, Pilgrim's progress. Plenty to get my teeth into, besides the multiples symphony versions in hand or coming  :blank:

Thanks for the rec on Roy Douglas. Will look it up.

Quote from: Christo on February 23, 2020, 06:39:11 AM
Wonderful, wonderful. Agree very much with Vandermolen (Jeffrey) on the qualities of the 'old' (Decca, mono) Boult recordings. e.g. the Sixth in this reading simply more powerful than the redo for EMI.

As about Symphony no. 6: three winners, for me, clearly stand out: Boult (Decca), Paavo Berglund and the Thompson. Davis very pale in comparison, IMHO.  ;D

The Thomson 6 & 9 have landed in the postbox Saturday and today. Will probably listen to those tomorrow.

Re the Boult I, is there a substantial sound improvement between the Belart and the Decca versions (notwithstanding the missing 9th and speech on the Belart - ) as the former is a third of the price of the latter ?

Also, when I look at the cheaper download option of the Decca on AMZ, it sends me to this. that can't be the same remastered version as the Decca set, is it ?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91UiIXBOcqL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2020, 07:45:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 24, 2020, 05:39:03 AM
I've dug out an old copy of BBC Music Magazine's 'Top 1000 CDs Guide' (1998 edition) which recommends Bryden Thompson's recording of Symphony No.6. Interestingly it states that:

'Command of the ardour, menace and baleful violence of the first three movements (Andrew Davis, Vernon Handley, Previn) doesn't guarantee ability to sustain the miasmic tension of that Sphinx-like finale, whose undulating, almost expressionless lines convey ultimate elegiac pathos while never rising above pianissimo...Iron discipline in needed in performance, but Slatkin (like Kees Bakels on Naxos) seems to achieve it at the expense of the other movements' tensions. Boult, on mid-price EMI (coupled with Symphony No.4) remains a strong recommendation, though even his finale lacks something. Bryden Thompson, despite the slightly cavernous Chandos sound delivers the most cogent performance of his cycle; the first movement opening is a little ponderous, but from the mechanistic march-rhythms that herald the second group all goes splendidly, and there is a rapt, frozen beauty to the finale.'

I may well have posted this before but can't be bothered to track backwards through the posts. Personally I quite like the cavernous Chandos sound:
(//)

Thomson's RVW cycle is fantastic, Jeffrey. Between it and the Previn, I'm at a loss for picking which cycle is my favorite. Thomson is outstanding in the middle symphonies (4-6), but has the absolute best 8th on record, IMHO. Previn's 2nd, 3rd, and 5th remain my references for these symphonies. What would you say are both conductors' strong points in their respective cycles?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2020, 07:49:07 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 24, 2020, 07:40:10 AM
Cheers Sarge, took its sweet time, didn't it...nice feeling now, though...  0:) :-[

Job is in the + list already, Jeffrey  ;)

The main works I have left to go through properly are : concerto Accademico, Oxford elegy, Santa Civitas, Flos Campi (although enjoyed that one before), Tudor portraits, Dives & Lazarus, Hodie, all the folk songs CDs (enjoyed some before as well), Ephitalamion, Riders to the sea, Hugh the Drover, Sir John in Love, Pilgrim's progress. Plenty to get my teeth into, besides the multiples symphony versions in hand or coming  :blank:

Thanks for the rec on Roy Douglas. Will look it up.

The Thomson 6 & 9 have landed in the postbox Saturday and today. Will probably listen to those tomorrow.

Re the Boult I, is there a substantial sound improvement between the Belart and the Decca versions (notwithstanding the missing 9th and speech on the Belart - ) as the former is a third of the price of the latter ?

Also, when I look at the cheaper download option of the Decca on AMZ, it sends me to this. that can't be the same remastered version as the Decca set, is it ?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91UiIXBOcqL._SS500_.jpg)

Good to see you're getting into RVW, Olivier. I remember you having a bit difficulty earlier on with his music. He's really one of the greats of the 20th Century and, even though I go through long stretches of not listening to any of his music, I still rank him highly. His music stirs my soul.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 24, 2020, 08:13:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2020, 07:49:07 AM
Good to see you're getting into RVW, Olivier. I remember you having a bit difficulty earlier on with his music. He's really one of the greats of the 20th Century and, even though I go through long stretches of not listening to any of his music, I still rank him highly. His music stirs my soul.

Cheers John, Not only it is great music but I am also enjoying its wide variety.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 24, 2020, 08:35:49 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 24, 2020, 07:40:10 AM

Re the Boult I, is there a substantial sound improvement between the Belart and the Decca versions (notwithstanding the missing 9th and speech on the Belart - ) as the former is a third of the price of the latter ?

Also, when I look at the cheaper download option of the Decca on AMZ, it sends me to this. that can't be the same remastered version as the Decca set, is it ?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91UiIXBOcqL._SS500_.jpg)

I have that downloaded version and no it is most definitely not the same mastering as the latest Decca version.  That said for the price the essence of the performances still comes through.  I bought this as a reference because I didn't think it would ever be my go-to/default version (in that opinion of course I may be horribly wrong!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 24, 2020, 01:09:54 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 24, 2020, 07:40:10 AM
Cheers Sarge, took its sweet time, didn't it...nice feeling now, though...  0:) :-[

Job is in the + list already, Jeffrey  ;)

The main works I have left to go through properly are : concerto Accademico, Oxford elegy, Santa Civitas, Flos Campi (although enjoyed that one before), Tudor portraits, Dives & Lazarus, Hodie, all the folk songs CDs (enjoyed some before as well), Ephitalamion, Riders to the sea, Hugh the Drover, Sir John in Love, Pilgrim's progress. Plenty to get my teeth into, besides the multiples symphony versions in hand or coming  :blank:

Thanks for the rec on Roy Douglas. Will look it up.

The Thomson 6 & 9 have landed in the postbox Saturday and today. Will probably listen to those tomorrow.

Re the Boult I, is there a substantial sound improvement between the Belart and the Decca versions (notwithstanding the missing 9th and speech on the Belart - ) as the former is a third of the price of the latter ?

Also, when I look at the cheaper download option of the Decca on AMZ, it sends me to this. that can't be the same remastered version as the Decca set, is it ?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91UiIXBOcqL._SS500_.jpg)
If my memory is correct the Decca pressings are much better than the Belart releases. I have the Belart box set as well. It only features symphonies 1-8 as No.9 was originally released on an American label 'Everest'. Decca got permission to include it in their British Composer's boxed set and restored Boult's speech 'for our American friends' which accompanied the original LP release.
You have to hear 'Epithalamion' Olivier. It is actually one of my favourite VW and ideal late night listening. Johan (Christo) is a fan as well. It is a most poetic work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 24, 2020, 01:17:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2020, 07:45:52 AM
Thomson's RVW cycle is fantastic, Jeffrey. Between it and the Previn, I'm at a loss for picking which cycle is my favorite. Thomson is outstanding in the middle symphonies (4-6), but has the absolute best 8th on record, IMHO. Previn's 2nd, 3rd, and 5th remain my references for these symphonies. What would you say are both conductors' strong points in their respective cycles?
Well John, let me think.
I think that Previn is unrivalled in A London Symphony, A Pastoral Symphony and Symphony No.8. No.5 is very good as well and I've come to appreciate 6 more in recent years. Thompson is very strong in No.6 and 9. I actually enjoy all of his performances but those two stand out for me as does his LP/CD of Dona Nobis Pacem and Five Mystical Songs:

Thompson also gets my prize for the best cover designs featuring paintings by J.M.W.Turner and a great painting of VW as well:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 25, 2020, 06:08:01 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 24, 2020, 08:35:49 AM
I have that downloaded version and no it is most definitely not the same mastering as the latest Decca version.  That said for the price the essence of the performances still comes through.  I bought this as a reference because I didn't think it would ever be my go-to/default version (in that opinion of course I may be horribly wrong!)

Thank you for the feedback RS. I'll hang fire for a little while on that Boult I, unless a cheap copy of the actual Decca box comes around. Still need to assimilate Boult II anyway...and the Previn that landed today as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 25, 2020, 06:10:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 24, 2020, 01:09:54 PM
If my memory is correct the Decca pressings are much better than the Belart releases. I have the Belart box set as well. It only features symphonies 1-8 as No.9 was originally released on an American label 'Everest'. Decca got permission to include it in their British Composer's boxed set and restored Boult's speech 'for our American friends' which accompanied the original LP release.

Thank you as well, Jeffrey.

Quote from: vandermolen on February 24, 2020, 01:09:54 PM
You have to hear 'Epithalamion' Olivier. It is actually one of my favourite VW and ideal late night listening. Johan (Christo) is a fan as well. It is a most poetic work.

I'll get to it  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 25, 2020, 06:31:22 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 24, 2020, 01:09:54 PM
You have to hear 'Epithalamion' Olivier. It is actually one of my favourite VW and ideal late night listening. Johan (Christo) is a fan as well. It is a most poetic work.

Definitely, and agree with many more, here. As about 'Epithalamion', please allow me another repeat mode: stating that I prefer the original version & instrumentation, called 'The Bridal Day', 'a masque for dancing' even more.  Perhaps the most moving 'unknown RVW' I encountered over the last decade, and one of my absolute favourites in his entire oeuvre. Found on this release only:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e4UAAOSwWTRWubkt/s-l300.jpg) Parts are on Youtube as well: https://www.youtube.com/v/4-oIhzOBIIQ


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 25, 2020, 07:03:37 AM
Thank Johan, I'll sample that too.

Oxford Elegy and Sancta Civitas didn't work for me (not a fan of narration, like in the former). Flos Campi had some gorgeous moments but too uneven. I remember to have liked it more than I did today. maybe I am having an off day.

Not sure what to make of Five Tudor Portraits right now...  ???
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 25, 2020, 11:12:04 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 25, 2020, 07:03:37 AM
Thank Johan, I'll sample that too.

Oxford Elegy and Sancta Civitas didn't work for me (not a fan of narration, like in the former). Flos Campi had some gorgeous moments but too uneven. I remember to have liked it more than I did today. maybe I am having an off day.

Not sure what to make of Five Tudor Portraits right now...  ???

This CD has always meant a lot to me. I think that it probably features in your boxed set Olivier:

The original LP was a revelation to me. It was probably one of the last new LPs that I bought in the 1980s:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on February 25, 2020, 12:27:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 25, 2020, 11:12:04 AM
This CD has always meant a lot to me. I think that it probably features in your boxed set Olivier:

The original LP was a revelation to me. It was probably one of the last new LPs that I bought in the 1980s:
(//)

Yes I have Ephitalamion and Riders to the sea in the boxset with the same forces (yet to be listened to).  I have already listened to 4 Hymns and Merciless beauty but they went in the reject list.

I did enjoy the Variants on Dives & Lazarus today. Quality music.

From the Five Tudor portraits, I only enjoyed My Pretty Bess and the Romanza Jane Scroop. I have limited appetite for the Cantata/Oratorio formats in general and even less for Opera. I'll still try those in the RVW box though just in case...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 25, 2020, 01:09:18 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2020, 05:10:51 AM
Excellent! Quite happy to read that. Vaughan Williams is one of my top 10 composers. I'm glad he's made a positive impact on you too.
+2!
Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 25, 2020, 01:18:36 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 22, 2020, 10:55:21 PM
+1
I wonder what Olivier will make of 'Riders to the Sea' and Pilgrim's Progress.

Other works I didn't notice on Olivier's list are:

Sancta Civitas (perhaps his greatest choral work)
Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus (which VW chose to have performed at his funeral)
Job: A Masque for Dancing
I like the fill-ups on Hickox's CD of Symphony No.5 such as The Pilgrim's Pavement.

As for books, if you can find a copy I'd recommend Roy Douglas's short book 'Working with RVW'. I had the pleasure of having tea with Roy Douglas (who lived to be over 100) as he lived locally.

I hadn't heard of Roy Douglas before now Jeffrey.  Thank you so much for mentioning his book!  I'll have to look through my Kennedy book to read more about his work with and interactions with RVW.   :)  I have been wanting to get ahold of a book of photos which Ursula and Moore put out.  Do you (or anyone else here) own it and/or have looked at a copy of it?

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 25, 2020, 01:34:45 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 25, 2020, 01:18:36 PM
I hadn't heard of Roy Douglas before now Jeffrey.  Thank you so much for mentioning his book!  I'll have to look through my Kennedy book to read more about his work with and interactions with RVW.   :)  I have been wanting to get ahold of a book of photos which Ursula and Moore put out.  Do you (or anyone else here) own it and/or have looked at a copy of it?

Best wishes,

PD

Hello PD,
I have these three:
(http://[img][img])[/img][/img]
The top two are more or less the same book in different editions (the earlier one is Ursula/Lunn and the later one is Ursula/Moore), the more recent bottom book is now being sold for an absurd price £541! The middle one is available on Amazon UK for about £11.00
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 25, 2020, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 25, 2020, 01:34:45 PM
Hello PD,
I have these three:
(http://[img][img])[/img][/img]

So, I see the original one (had seen copies for sale...should have grabbed/purchased online one then!).  When did the other two versions come out?  Top one is the original one, non?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 25, 2020, 01:40:48 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 25, 2020, 01:37:01 PM
So, I see the original one (had seen copies for sale...should have grabbed/purchased online one then!).  When did the other two versions come out?  Top one is the original one, non?

The top one must be about the time of the VW Centenary in 1972 I think and the other ones about ten and twenty years later I'd guess. You can pick up the Ursula/Lunn one for about £15.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 25, 2020, 01:50:14 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 25, 2020, 01:40:48 PM
The top one must be about the time of the VW Centenary in 1972 I think and the other ones about ten and twenty years later I'd guess. You can pick up the Ursula/Lunn one for about £15.
Does the pricey one have a lot more photos and/or descriptions/history?  Just curious as to how it is different and/or so *special (pricey)?

*or just limited pressings?   ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 25, 2020, 02:21:21 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 25, 2020, 01:50:14 PM
Does the pricey one have a lot more photos and/or descriptions/history?  Just curious as to how it is different and/or so *special (pricey)?

*or just limited pressings?   ::)

They all have loads of photos PD.
Just scarcity value I guess.
The original Lunn/Ursula book was at one time very pricey second hand but had come right down in price.
I've sent you a PM about it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 27, 2020, 12:43:22 AM
A very belated though welcome review of Bryden Thompson fine recording of Dona Nobis Pacem and Five Mystical Songs from the Musicweb:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Feb/VW_dona_CHAN8590.htm
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 28, 2020, 03:11:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 25, 2020, 02:21:21 PM
They all have loads of photos PD.
Just scarcity value I guess.
The original Lunn/Ursula book was at one time very pricey second hand but had come right down in price.
I've sent you a PM about it.
Thank you.   :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 28, 2020, 04:13:35 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 27, 2020, 12:43:22 AM
A very belated though welcome review of Bryden Thompson fine recording of Dona Nobis Pacem and Five Mystical Songs from the Musicweb:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Feb/VW_dona_CHAN8590.htm
(//)

Damn, what a fantastic disc this was.  I don't know if it displaces Hickox/LSO as my favorite version but this was certainly an exuberant and very fine recording.  I just felt the soloists for Hickox were better and the nuance in the performance was there plus the organ was more prominent.  There was more dynamic range in the Hickox which I think is very important in RVW and he said so!  When he wanted pianissimo in his symphony No. 6, he really meant that and commented when conductors obeyed his wish.  I felt as fine as the Bryden Thompson recording was, he was very loud rather than having a wide dynamic range the way Hickox did on his recording of the same work and the results are more dramatic range.  Hickox was an excellent RVW conductor.  He did a splendid job on the symphonies too even No. 9 which I hope gets released.  It was a radio broadcast but a very fine interpretation covering many of the important aspects of why Previn is so damn good in that Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on February 29, 2020, 01:09:38 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 28, 2020, 04:13:35 PM
Damn, what a fantastic disc this was.  I don't know if it displaces Hickox/LSO as my favorite version but this was certainly an exuberant and very fine recording.  I just felt the soloists for Hickox were better and the nuance in the performance was there plus the organ was more prominent.  There was more dynamic range in the Hickox which I think is very important in RVW and he said so!  When he wanted pianissimo in his symphony No. 6, he really meant that and commented when conductors obeyed his wish. I felt as fine as the Bryden Thompson recording was, he was very loud rather than having a wide dynamic range the way Hickox did on his recording of the same work and the results are more dramatic range.  Hickox was an excellent RVW conductor.  He did a splendid job on the symphonies too even No. 9 which I hope gets released.  It was a radio broadcast but a very fine interpretation covering many of the important aspects of why Previn is so damn good in that Symphony.

I have a problem with some of the more modern recordings as this movement becomes inaudible. This doesn't happen with older recordings and recordings of live performances. There is so much detail in this movement and RVW surely didn't want it to be lost. I wonder how loud something RVW thought pianissimo really was. As he got older he became increasingly deaf, a legacy of his experience as an artillery officer in WW1.

I have only heard the symphony live once, the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Sir Colin Davis (slightly odd combination) in the Royal Festival Hall. I don't remember any problems with audibility but I had considerably younger ears. There is plenty of detail to be heard in Davis' live recording with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra; fine for me but I suspect some will find it too loud.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 01:17:29 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 28, 2020, 04:13:35 PM
Damn, what a fantastic disc this was.  I don't know if it displaces Hickox/LSO as my favorite version but this was certainly an exuberant and very fine recording.  I just felt the soloists for Hickox were better and the nuance in the performance was there plus the organ was more prominent.  There was more dynamic range in the Hickox which I think is very important in RVW and he said so!  When he wanted pianissimo in his symphony No. 6, he really meant that and commented when conductors obeyed his wish.  I felt as fine as the Bryden Thompson recording was, he was very loud rather than having a wide dynamic range the way Hickox did on his recording of the same work and the results are more dramatic range.  Hickox was an excellent RVW conductor.  He did a splendid job on the symphonies too even No. 9 which I hope gets released.  It was a radio broadcast but a very fine interpretation covering many of the important aspects of why Previn is so damn good in that Symphony.
I saw Richard Hickox conduct Vaughan Williams Ninth Symphony in London not long before he died. It was a very fine performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 03:11:45 AM
New release of rather early stuff (apart from Household Music):
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on February 29, 2020, 05:00:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 03:11:45 AM
New release of rather early stuff (apart from Household Music):

(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=62895;image)

I have never even heard of that work let alone listen to it Jeffrey [such is my ignorance of Vaughan-Williams oeuvre  :-[]
Are we talking about an English version of Strauss' Symphonia Domestica?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 08:44:54 AM
Quote from: aligreto on February 29, 2020, 05:00:07 AM
I have never even heard of that work let alone listen to it Jeffrey [such is my ignorance of Vaughan-Williams oeuvre  :-[]
Are we talking
about an English version of Strauss' Symphonia Domestica?
I doubt it Fergus. I do have a CD of the VW coupled with 'Riders to the Sea' on Chandos and I remember enjoying it. I suspect that it's much better than 'Sinfonia Domestica' which I can't stand. The same goes for 'An Alpine Symphony' (which I misguidedly bought recently) and worst of all 'Ein Heldenleben', which probably puts me in the minority here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Ratliff on February 29, 2020, 08:52:47 AM
Quote from: Biffo on February 29, 2020, 01:09:38 AM
I have a problem with some of the more modern recordings as this movement becomes inaudible. This doesn't happen with older recordings and recordings of live performances. There is so much detail in this movement and RVW surely didn't want it to be lost. I wonder how loud something RVW thought pianissimo really was. As he got older he became increasingly deaf, a legacy of his experience as an artillery officer in WW1.

I have only heard the symphony live once, the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Sir Colin Davis (slightly odd combination) in the Royal Festival Hall. I don't remember any problems with audibility but I had considerably younger ears. There is plenty of detail to be heard in Davis' live recording with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra; fine for me but I suspect some will find it too loud.

I also have experienced the problem that the finale pianissimo is basically inaudible in recordings of the sixth and I find myself reluctant to just crank up the volume so I can hear it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on February 29, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 08:44:54 AM
I doubt it Fergus. I do have a CD of the VW coupled with 'Riders to the Sea' on Chandos and I remember enjoying it. I suspect that it's much better than 'Sinfonia Domestica' which I can't stand. The same goes for 'An Alpine Symphony' (which I misguidedly bought recently) and worst of all 'Ein Heldenleben', which probably puts me in the minority here.

For shame Jeffrey. You have just dropped 50 points in my estimation  >:D

OK, I understand that people do not like the music of R Strauss. However, I am somewhat intrigued by RVW's Household Music so I will attempt to find it on the interweb somewhere. I would like to hear it.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 09:57:18 AM
Quote from: aligreto on February 29, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
For shame Jeffrey. You have just dropped 50 points in my estimation  >:D

OK, I understand that people do not like the music of R Strauss. However, I am somewhat intrigued by RVW's Household Music so I will attempt to find it on the interweb somewhere. I would like to hear it.  :)
I'll see if I can find my CD of it Fergus. The odd thing about R.Strauss is that I often like the music of composers who were allegedly influenced by him, Vitezslav Novak being the most important example. I do quite like Don Juan and a work for organ and orchestra as well as Till Eulenspiegel.

Here's the opening of Household Music (orchestrated version):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iQJYuFGJZY0
I don't think it sounds like 'Sinfonia Domestica'  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 29, 2020, 11:26:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 08:44:54 AM
I doubt it Fergus. I do have a CD of the VW coupled with 'Riders to the Sea' on Chandos and I remember enjoying it. I suspect that it's much better than 'Sinfonia Domestica' which I can't stand. The same goes for 'An Alpine Symphony' (which I misguidedly bought recently) and worst of all 'Ein Heldenleben', which probably puts me in the minority here.
Welcome to the Sanity Club!  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 12:49:07 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 29, 2020, 11:26:52 AM
Welcome to the Sanity Club!  :D
;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2020, 12:27:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 03:11:45 AM
New release of rather early stuff (apart from Household Music):


Another case of the RVW estate allowing people to "complete and realise" early works.  In this case a 1903 horn sonata with the Dr Frankenstein work done again by the indefatigable Martin Yates.  The Dr Frankenstein comment is unfair (but quite apposite I thought!) given Yates' care and skill but ultimately this is not a genuine/complete work by RVW.  The D major Quintet (for clarinet, horn, piano, violin & cello) is the same work as appeared on this (very good) set:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51Rs9MdSP0L._AC_UY218_ML3_.jpg)

More intriguingly the Bax Horn Sonata is not mentioned at all in Graham Parlett's exhaustive/definitive "A Catalogue of the works of Sir Anold Bax".  If it does date from 1901 then the composer was 18 and from Parlett's catalogue more concerned with writing songs that year! 

Not sure this is going to be a must-buy!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 01, 2020, 01:01:35 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2020, 12:27:17 AM
Another case of the RVW estate allowing people to "complete and realise" early works.  In this case a 1903 horn sonata with the Dr Frankenstein work done again by the indefatigable Martin Yates.  The Dr Frankenstein comment is unfair (but quite apposite I thought!) given Yates' care and skill but ultimately this is not a genuine/complete work by RVW.  The D major Quintet (for clarinet, horn, piano, violin & cello) is the same work as appeared on this (very good) set:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51Rs9MdSP0L._AC_UY218_ML3_.jpg)

More intriguingly the Bax Horn Sonata is not mentioned at all in Graham Parlett's exhaustive/definitive "A Catalogue of the works of Sir Anold Bax".  If it does date from 1901 then the composer was 18 and from Parlett's catalogue more concerned with writing songs that year! 

Not sure this is going to be a must-buy!
I rather like your 'Dr Frankenstein' comment, especially as an admirer of old horror films (and I have read the book as well). No, not sure that I'm going to rush out and buy it. However, I'm also an admirer of that early chamber music Hyperion CD which, I think, includes the early Piano Quintet which I like very much.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 01, 2020, 01:47:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 09:57:18 AM

Here's the opening of Household Music (orchestrated version):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iQJYuFGJZY0
I don't think it sounds like 'Sinfonia Domestica'  ;D


Thank you for the link Jeffrey. I did enjoy it and yes, I do agree that it sounds nothing like Symphonia Domestica [which I too dislike BTW  ;)].
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 01, 2020, 01:48:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 08:44:54 AM
I doubt it Fergus. I do have a CD of the VW coupled with 'Riders to the Sea' on Chandos and I remember enjoying it. I suspect that it's much better than 'Sinfonia Domestica' which I can't stand. The same goes for 'An Alpine Symphony' (which I misguidedly bought recently) and worst of all 'Ein Heldenleben', which probably puts me in the minority here.

I had to listen to Household Music after the above comments. I have the same Chandos CD. The work is subtitled Three Preludes on Welsh Hymn Tunes which, as the helpful booklet points out, is a better description but RVW had used that title already. It is a wartime work and written to be performed by any combination of instruments available; the first performance was given by the Blech String Quartet. I find it a pleasant work but some of it rather generic RVW, No 3, the variations on Aberystwyth, perhaps deserves to be better known.

I love some of Strauss' tone poems, including Ein Heldenleben, but not the Sinfonia Domestica - the best efforts of such luminaries as George Szell and Rudolf Kempe fail to convince me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 01, 2020, 01:56:36 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 01, 2020, 01:48:39 AM
I had to listen to Household Music after the above comments. I have the same Chandos CD. The work is subtitled Three Preludes on Welsh Hymn Tunes which, as the helpful booklet points out, is a better description but RVW had used that title already. It is a wartime work and written to be performed by any combination of instruments available; the first performance was given by the Blech String Quartet. I find it a pleasant work but some of it rather generic RVW, No 3, the variations on Aberystwyth, perhaps deserves to be better known.

I love some of Strauss' tone poems, including Ein Heldenleben, but not the Sinfonia Domestica - the best efforts of such luminaries as George Szell and Rudolf Kempe fail to convince me.

Thank you for the information on Household Music Biffo; much appreciated.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2020, 02:36:12 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 01, 2020, 01:48:39 AM
I had to listen to Household Music after the above comments. I have the same Chandos CD. The work is subtitled Three Preludes on Welsh Hymn Tunes which, as the helpful booklet points out, is a better description but RVW had used that title already. It is a wartime work and written to be performed by any combination of instruments available; the first performance was given by the Blech String Quartet. I find it a pleasant work but some of it rather generic RVW, No 3, the variations on Aberystwyth, perhaps deserves to be better known.

I love some of Strauss' tone poems, including Ein Heldenleben, but not the Sinfonia Domestica - the best efforts of such luminaries as George Szell and Rudolf Kempe fail to convince me.

Not strictly the thread for this comment......(!) I really like Domestica and the Alpine Symphony.  Perhaps not every day of the week but when I'm in an epic mood I love 'em.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 01, 2020, 07:52:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 08:44:54 AMI suspect that it's much better than 'Sinfonia Domestica' which I can't stand. The same goes for 'An Alpine Symphony' (which I misguidedly bought recently) and worst of all 'Ein Heldenleben', which probably puts me in the minority here.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 29, 2020, 09:57:18 AMI do quite like Don Juan and a work for organ and orchestra as well as Till Eulenspiegel.

Not the first time I feel obliged to repeat that among the few pieces by Richard Strauss I can stand - by far the most I simply cannot, how much I tried - are Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche, the Festliches Präludium Op. 61 for organ & large orchestra & of course the Feierlicher Einzug der Ritter des Johanniterordens, Investitur Marsch for brass & timpani (I think sometimes organ too). I fail to see any connection with RVW's music even in these pieces, indeed the "dissimilarity" between these two contemparies no doubt a major cause of my dislike for Strauss.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 01, 2020, 08:30:27 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 01, 2020, 07:52:01 AM
Not the first time I feel obliged to repeat that among the few pieces by Richard Strauss I can stand - by far the most I simply cannot, how much I tried - are Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche, the Festliches Präludium Op. 61 for organ & large orchestra & of course the Feierlicher Einzug der Ritter des Johanniterordens, Investitur Marsch for brass & timpani (I think sometimes organ too). I fail to see any connection with RVW's music even in these pieces, indeed the "dissimilarity" between these two contemparies no doubt a major cause of my dislike for Strauss.  ::)
OT
I seem to recall that Tchaikovsky, in reference to  the young R.Strauss, said that he'd never seen such pretentiousness linked with such lack of talent. Might have got this wrong.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 01, 2020, 04:50:24 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 01, 2020, 08:30:27 AM
OT
I seem to recall that Tchaikovsky, in reference to  the young R.Strauss, said that he'd never seen such pretentiousness linked with such lack of talent. Might have got this wrong.

An elder Brahms said "But Richard Strauss, keep an eye out for that one, he shows great promise".  BUT, Brahms only lived to hear Strauss's early phase which was heavily indebted to Brahms and not what his reputation today lies on.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 01, 2020, 10:15:23 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 01, 2020, 04:50:24 PM
An elder Brahms said "But Richard Strauss, keep an eye out for that one, he shows great promise".  BUT, Brahms only lived to hear Strauss's early phase which was heavily indebted to Brahms and not what his reputation today lies on.
Interesting! Thanks Karim.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2020, 11:41:19 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 01, 2020, 04:50:24 PM
An elder Brahms said "But Richard Strauss, keep an eye out for that one, he shows great promise".  BUT, Brahms only lived to hear Strauss's early phase which was heavily indebted to Brahms and not what his reputation today lies on.

Why the vitriol for Strauss?  For sure the big tone poems dealing with life, the universe and everything can seem pretentious but what is wrong with aiming for the stars.... especially when you are young?  But to say he lacked talent is simply absurd - and if Tchaikovsky did say that (a composer I love) - then it is beneath him and smacks of professional jealousy rather than an objective remark.  Perhaps he envied Struass' stellar career at a young age while he was still struggling in comparison. 

When you listen to those rafts of generic kapellmeister composers that now turn up on CPO - technically accomplished and worthy but lacking a fraction of Strauss' genius - the achievement is clear whether the manner of the music appeals or not.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 02, 2020, 12:21:53 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2020, 11:41:19 PM
Why the vitriol for Strauss?  For sure the big tone poems dealing with life, the universe and everything can seem pretentious but what is wrong with aiming for the stars.... especially when you are young?  But to say he lacked talent is simply absurd - and if Tchaikovsky did say that (a composer I love) - then it is beneath him and smacks of professional jealousy rather than an objective remark.  Perhaps he envied Struass' stellar career at a young age while he was still struggling in comparison. 

When you listen to those rafts of generic kapellmeister composers that now turn up on CPO - technically accomplished and worthy but lacking a fraction of Strauss' genius - the achievement is clear whether the manner of the music appeals or not.

Well, I must definitely have another go at RS, especially having recently purchased 'An Alpine Symphony' and recognise that others admire his music greatly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 02, 2020, 05:38:53 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2020, 11:41:19 PM
Why the vitriol for Strauss?  For sure the big tone poems dealing with life, the universe and everything can seem pretentious but what is wrong with aiming for the stars.... especially when you are young?  But to say he lacked talent is simply absurd - and if Tchaikovsky did say that (a composer I love) - then it is beneath him and smacks of professional jealousy rather than an objective remark.  Perhaps he envied Struass' stellar career at a young age while he was still struggling in comparison. 

When you listen to those rafts of generic kapellmeister composers that now turn up on CPO - technically accomplished and worthy but lacking a fraction of Strauss' genius - the achievement is clear whether the manner of the music appeals or not.

Why your response to me if I had no vitriol at all?  I am a brass player and love Strauss especially the big stuff.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 02, 2020, 07:23:35 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2020, 11:41:19 PM
 

When you listen to those rafts of generic kapellmeister composers that now turn up on CPO - technically accomplished and worthy but lacking a fraction of Strauss' genius - the achievement is clear whether the manner of the music appeals or not.

There is a lot of truth in this.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 02, 2020, 07:37:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 24, 2020, 01:17:34 PM
Well John, let me think.
I think that Previn is unrivalled in A London Symphony, A Pastoral Symphony and Symphony No.8. No.5 is very good as well and I've come to appreciate 6 more in recent years. Thompson is very strong in No.6 and 9. I actually enjoy all of his performances but those two stand out for me as does his LP/CD of Dona Nobis Pacem and Five Mystical Songs:

Both the Previn and the Thomson cycle as a whole are by far the two best overall IMHO, and we only seem to differ in some detail. I appreciate the Thomson somewhat more than average here, e.g. his Eigth, whereas I do not really care so much for the 'London' apart for the two middle movements - and generally prefer the extended 1920 version over the later, shortened one. But all of these are merely details: Previn it is + Thomson. So far, everything Martyn Brabbins came forth with - the 1920 London, A Pastoral & the Fourth especially - may turn out to become the third, equally succesful cycle. (At the other end of the spectre, by far worst cycle of them all: the Bernard Haitink  8)).
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 02, 2020, 08:29:50 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 02, 2020, 07:37:05 AM
Both the Previn and the Thomson cycle as a whole are by far the two best overall IMHO, and we only seem to differ in some detail. I appreciate the Thomson somewhat more than average here, e.g. his Eigth, whereas I do not really care so much for the 'London' apart for the two middle movements - and generally prefer the extended 1920 version over the later, shortened one. But all of these are merely details: Previn it is + Thomson. So far, everything Martyn Brabbins came forth with - the 1920 London, A Pastoral & the Fourth especially - may turn out to become the third, equally succesful cycle. (At the other end of the spectre, by far worst cycle of them all: the Bernard Haitink  8)).
:)
Yes, we a largely agree although it was Haitink's 'Sea Symphony' which brought that work alive for me as did his recording of Shostakovich's 13th Symphony 'Babi-Yar'. I have the Haitink box set but haven't played anything other than A Sea Symphony recently. Actually I did like his recording of Symphony No.6 with 'On Wenlock Edge' and 'In the Fen Country' and I know that his 'Antartica' is rated highly by some. Totally with you on the 1920 version of A London Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 02, 2020, 10:57:18 AM
Symphony No. 8

After "A Sea Symphony", which I eventually cracked, Symphony No. 8 was always another one that gave me a lot of difficulty in coming to terms with; the sound world of the first two movements in particular. Now I find the sound world [and by inference the scoring] to be both intriguing and thrilling. I also find the variety of tones and moods to be very engaging.


Boult:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)


Boult's orchestral strings are rich in tone and play with intensity and with great lyricism throughout. The tension and drama in the first movement is wonderfully portrayed under Boult; a Fantasia with something of a dark and disconcerting undercurrent. The Scherzo is wonderful in its quirky and playful way and I find it somewhat reminiscent of something that Stravinsky might have been thinking of while sitting in a café somewhere. The same mellifluous tones that prevail in the first movement return in the Cavatina. That dark and slightly menacing undercurrent also returns; that pizzicato double bass motif is wonderful. The final movement is a great drive for a final solution musically. Boult balances the elements quite well culminating in a fine, spirited conclusion.

I would say that Boult's reading is quite exciting, appealing in its tone, suitably tense and dramatic in atmosphere and well worked in terms of architecture, pacing and overall effect; powerful without being over exuberant.



Previn:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)


Previn's reading of the first movement is filled with tension, drama and some excitement. I find the Previn reading of the first movement to be primarily a lyrical one. I do not find it, in general, to be as dark or as disconcerting as that of Boult but it has a greater, different, sense of drama, for me. Previn's version of the Scherzo is quite different, for me, than Boult's. I find it to be less effective and atmospheric; it is fine but not as quirky or zany as Boult's is. The Cavatina tends towards the lyrical as opposed to the darkness of Boult. Previn's reading of the final movement is very fine and his drive towards, and ultimate conclusion of the climax is both satisfying and rewarding.

I find that Previn's reading is a sober, contemplative one in terms of tone, tends towards the lyrical, even pastoral and contains adequate tension and sufficient drama at times in terms of atmosphere. The pacing is also fine. Previn's strings are not, for me, as full or as rich as those of Boult. This is irrelevant in the context of Previn's overall reading but is worth noting I think.


Barbirolli:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XIIAAOSwpKtdSvQn/s-l1600.jpg)


Barbirolli's reading of the Fantasia is ardent and assertive. It is more purposeful and threatening than disconcerterting, I find. The Scherzo is playful and quirky and sounds somewhat Stravinskian in tone. The Cavatina is somewhat sombre and plaintive in tone without being excessively dark or menacing; it is rich in colour and texture. A strong element of positivity, vibrancy and exuberance prevail in the the final movement which serves the music well.

Barbirolli's reading of this work is robust, ardent in tone and quite tense and dramatic in terms of atmosphere. I feel that Barbirolli has a good grasp of the architecture of this work and delivers a powerful and captivating presentation.


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 02, 2020, 10:47:09 PM
Quote from: aligreto on March 02, 2020, 10:57:18 AM
Symphony No. 8

After "A Sea Symphony", which I eventually cracked, Symphony No. 8 was always another one that gave me a lot of difficulty in coming to terms with; the sound world of the first two movements in particular. Now I find the sound world [and by inference the scoring] to be both intriguing and thrilling. I also find the variety of tones and moods to be very engaging.


Boult:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)


Boult's orchestral strings are rich in tone and play with intensity and with great lyricism throughout. The tension and drama in the first movement is wonderfully portrayed under Boult; a Fantasia with something of a dark and disconcerting undercurrent. The Scherzo is wonderful in its quirky and playful way and I find it somewhat reminiscent of something that Stravinsky might have been thinking of while sitting in a café somewhere. The same mellifluous tones that prevail in the first movement return in the Cavatina. That dark and slightly menacing undercurrent also returns; that pizzicato double bass motif is wonderful. The final movement is a great drive for a final solution musically. Boult balances the elements quite well culminating in a fine, spirited conclusion.

I would say that Boult's reading is quite exciting, appealing in its tone, suitably tense and dramatic in atmosphere and well worked in terms of architecture, pacing and overall effect; powerful without being over exuberant.



Previn:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)


Previn's reading of the first movement is filled with tension, drama and some excitement. I find the Previn reading of the first movement to be primarily a lyrical one. I do not find it, in general, to be as dark or as disconcerting as that of Boult but it has a greater, different, sense of drama, for me. Previn's version of the Scherzo is quite different, for me, than Boult's. I find it to be less effective and atmospheric; it is fine but not as quirky or zany as Boult's is. The Cavatina tends towards the lyrical as opposed to the darkness of Boult. Previn's reading of the final movement is very fine and his drive towards, and ultimate conclusion of the climax is both satisfying and rewarding.

I find that Previn's reading is a sober, contemplative one in terms of tone, tends towards the lyrical, even pastoral and contains adequate tension and sufficient drama at times in terms of atmosphere. The pacing is also fine. Previn's strings are not, for me, as full or as rich as those of Boult. This is irrelevant in the context of Previn's overall reading but is worth noting I think.


Barbirolli:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XIIAAOSwpKtdSvQn/s-l1600.jpg)


Barbirolli's reading of the Fantasia is ardent and assertive. It is more purposeful and threatening than disconcerterting, I find. The Scherzo is playful and quirky and sounds somewhat Stravinskian in tone. The Cavatina is somewhat sombre and plaintive in tone without being excessively dark or menacing; it is rich in colour and texture. A strong element of positivity, vibrancy and exuberance prevail in the the final movement which serves the music well.

Barbirolli's reading of this work is robust, ardent in tone and quite tense and dramatic in terms of atmosphere. I feel that Barbirolli has a good grasp of the architecture of this work and delivers a powerful and captivating presentation.
An interesting comparative analysis Fergus which I enjoyed reading. Decca issued Symphony No.8 (the only one of the Decca set recorded in stereo) as a 'Legendary Performance' some years ago with its unusual Rachmaninov coupling:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 03, 2020, 12:16:29 AM
I find it incredible that someone who in his old age, who had reached the heights and as the saying goes got the T shirt, writes a symphony as current and modern as the 8th. Aligreto has the same reaction as we all do at the first hearing of the 8th "what is this!" with that dreamy opening featuring vibraphone and celesta.

It is Previn for me in the 8th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on March 03, 2020, 01:56:48 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 03, 2020, 12:16:29 AM
I find it incredible that someone who in his old age, who had reached the heights and as the saying goes got the T shirt, writes a symphony as current and modern as the 8th. Aligreto has the same reaction as we all do at the first hearing of the 8th "what is this!" with that dreamy opening featuring vibraphone and celesta.

It is Previn for me in the 8th.

You told me a few weeks ago to revisit the Previn RVW 8th after I mentioned in another thread that I didn't much care for his cycle (or the RVW symphonies other than the Pastoral in general), so I did, and it was very rewarding. I've been listening to it frequently since then. A really interesting symphony. Reminds me somewhat of the symphonies that would later be written by Malcolm Arnold.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 03, 2020, 06:29:38 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 03, 2020, 01:56:48 AM
You told me a few weeks ago to revisit the Previn RVW 8th after I mentioned in another thread that I didn't much care for his cycle (or the RVW symphonies other than the Pastoral in general), so I did, and it was very rewarding. I've been listening to it frequently since then. A really interesting symphony. Reminds me somewhat of the symphonies that would later be written by Malcolm Arnold.

Thanks for saying that. Appreciated. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 03, 2020, 06:54:22 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2020, 11:41:19 PM
Why the vitriol for Strauss?  For sure the big tone poems dealing with life, the universe and everything can seem pretentious but what is wrong with aiming for the stars.... especially when you are young?  But to say he lacked talent is simply absurd
Tchaikovsky similarly derided Brahms as talentless. I love Tchaikovsky, but I don't care whom he didn't like.


Quote from: Christo on March 02, 2020, 07:37:05 AM
Both the Previn and the Thomson cycle as a whole are by far the two best overall IMHO, and we only seem to differ in some detail. I appreciate the Thomson somewhat more than average here, e.g. his Eigth, whereas I do not really care so much for the 'London' apart for the two middle movements - and generally prefer the extended 1920 version over the later, shortened one. But all of these are merely details: Previn it is + Thomson. So far, everything Martyn Brabbins came forth with - the 1920 London, A Pastoral & the Fourth especially - may turn out to become the third, equally succesful cycle. (At the other end of the spectre, by far worst cycle of them all: the Bernard Haitink  8) ).
:)


I've enjoyed spending quite a bit of time with the Thomson cycle this week. Should cue up his Sea Symphony, which is the one item in the Thomson set which I've neglected so far.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 03, 2020, 02:09:13 PM
I enjoyed Paul Daniels' No.4 from the Naxos/Bournemouth cycle today.  A really excellent version all too easy to overlook in the midst of Brabbins/Manze/Previn/Boult/Handley etc etc.  Probably an uneven cycle but this is one of the finest parts of it and an interesting programme too with an evocative Norfolk Rhapsody and a suitably rhapsodic Flos Campi
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 03, 2020, 04:55:11 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 03, 2020, 02:09:13 PM
I enjoyed Paul Daniels' No.4 from the Naxos/Bournemouth cycle today.  A really excellent version all too easy to overlook in the midst of Brabbins/Manze/Previn/Boult/Handley etc etc.  Probably an uneven cycle but this is one of the finest parts of it and an interesting programme too with an evocative Norfolk Rhapsody and a suitably rhapsodic Flos Campi

Yes, a very nice disc!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 03, 2020, 10:09:43 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 03, 2020, 02:09:13 PM
I enjoyed Paul Daniels' No.4 from the Naxos/Bournemouth cycle today.  A really excellent version all too easy to overlook in the midst of Brabbins/Manze/Previn/Boult/Handley etc etc.  Probably an uneven cycle but this is one of the finest parts of it and an interesting programme too with an evocative Norfolk Rhapsody and a suitably rhapsodic Flos Campi
Good point. I enjoy that disc as well, although like the Vernon Handley cycle, none of the others really stood out for me.  I liked the coupling of 5 and 9.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 05, 2020, 07:29:36 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 03, 2020, 12:16:29 AM
I find it incredible that someone who in his old age, who had reached the heights and as the saying goes got the T shirt, writes a symphony as current and modern as the 8th. Aligreto has the same reaction as we all do at the first hearing of the 8th "what is this!" with that dreamy opening featuring vibraphone and celesta.


Quote from: vers la flamme on March 03, 2020, 01:56:48 AM
You told me a few weeks ago to revisit the Previn RVW 8th after I mentioned in another thread that I didn't much care for his cycle (or the RVW symphonies other than the Pastoral in general), so I did, and it was very rewarding. I've been listening to it frequently since then. A really interesting symphony. Reminds me somewhat of the symphonies that would later be written by Malcolm Arnold.


One thing that I have definitely learned over the years of listening to music is that if at first you do not like or understand it [which is fine] that given time and a few re-listening sessions this initial barrier frequently disappears. And so it has been for me with Vaughan Williams Symphonies Nos. 1 & 8. Sometimes it pays dividends to be persistent.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 05, 2020, 08:26:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 03, 2020, 10:09:43 PM
Good point. I enjoy that disc as well, although like the Vernon Handley cycle, none of the others really stood out for me.  I liked the coupling of 5 and 9.

https://www.shazam.com/nl/track/47082411/williams-symphony-no-7-sinfonia-antartica-iv-intermezzo-andante-sostenuto-allegretto-pesante-tempo-primo-tranquillo
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 05, 2020, 08:27:58 AM
Cross post from the Listening Thread:


Vaughan-Williams: Symphony No. 4 [Vaughan-Williams]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71j2ERuXaAL._SL1200_.jpg)



This CD has been in my collection for a long time. I did not include it in my original review of the RVW Symphony No. 4 because I had mislabelled it as Symphony No. 8 in my filing system.  ::) :-[

Not all composers are successful in conducting, particularly their own music but Vaughan-Williams, for me, portrays his own powerful and harsh sound world very well. He elicits a taut and tension fill performance from the BBCSO. I found the interpretation of the Andante to be very engaging.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 09, 2020, 02:09:16 PM
Quote from: aligreto on March 05, 2020, 08:27:58 AM
Cross post from the Listening Thread:


Vaughan-Williams: Symphony No. 4 [Vaughan-Williams]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71j2ERuXaAL._SL1200_.jpg)



This CD has been in my collection for a long time. I did not include it in my original review of the RVW Symphony No. 4 because I had mislabelled it as Symphony No. 8 in my filing system.  ::) :-[

Not all composers are successful in conducting, particularly their own music but Vaughan-Williams, for me, portrays his own powerful and harsh sound world very well. He elicits a taut and tension fill performance from the BBCSO. I found the interpretation of the Andante to be very engaging.
Glad that you managed to find it.   ;)  :)

Would like to hear the Holst recording.  I do/did enjoy the VW one...hope to revisit it soon (Dutton CD--see current listening thread if you missed my posting).

Wondering whether or not anyone here has heard Vaughan Williams conducting Bach's St. Matthew's Passion (issued by Pearl); I dithered as to whether or not to order the CD and then it was no more.   :'(  I remember reading that he loved to conduct it and did so, I believe, regularly at the Leith Hill Music Festival.

Oh, I did find it online here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUTyxi9YOLw

Apologies if this has already been brought up before, but I feel like I don't have time to read through all of the pages on this thread.

Best,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Daverz on March 09, 2020, 04:29:01 PM
Quote from: aligreto on March 05, 2020, 07:29:36 AM


One thing that I have definitely learned over the years of listening to music is that if at first you do not like or understand it [which is fine] that given time and a few re-listening sessions this initial barrier frequently disappears. And so it has been for me with Vaughan Williams Symphonies Nos. 1 & 8. Sometimes it pays dividends to be persistent.

I admit that I tend to avoid English choral works, so I haven't even made a proper attempt on the Sea Symphony.  I'm also allergic to Walt Whitman, so that doesn't help.  But No. 8 has always seemed a colorful and enjoyable work. 

I will admit that it's actually the London Symphony -- of all the symphonies, you'd think the easiest to assimilate -- that still tends to flummox me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 09, 2020, 11:55:34 PM
Quote from: Daverz on March 09, 2020, 04:29:01 PM
I admit that I tend to avoid English choral works, so I haven't even made a proper attempt on the Sea Symphony.  I'm also allergic to Walt Whitman, so that doesn't help.  But No. 8 has always seemed a colorful and enjoyable work. 

I will admit that it's actually the London Symphony -- of all the symphonies, you'd think the easiest to assimilate -- that still tends to flummox me.
I wonder if you've heard the 1913 or 1920 version, both of which include the most beautiful section of music, near the end, which VW, mistakenly in my view, later excised from the symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on March 10, 2020, 12:26:11 AM
It's kinda mindblowing how some of the "extra" sections in the 1913 version of A London Symphony sound so much like what Bax would go on to do in his symphonies some 20-odd years later. It's magnificent!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 11, 2020, 09:11:43 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 09, 2020, 04:29:01 PM


I will admit that it's actually the London Symphony -- of all the symphonies, you'd think the easiest to assimilate -- that still tends to flummox me.

Yes, that is an odd one to be stumped on all right.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 11, 2020, 01:40:50 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 10, 2020, 12:26:11 AM
It's kinda mindblowing how some of the "extra" sections in the 1913 version of A London Symphony sound so much like what Bax would go on to do in his symphonies some 20-odd years later. It's magnificent!
I agree and it was Bax, amongst others (Boult, Bernard Herrmann) who remonstrated with Vaughan Williams over the cuts that he made in 1936. I recall a critic commenting that VW had cut out a typically 'Baxian moment of cacophony' or words to that effect.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 11, 2020, 11:14:05 PM
Review of the new Brabbins CD of symphonies 3 and 4:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Mar/VW_sys_CDA68280.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 12, 2020, 12:03:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 11, 2020, 11:14:05 PM
Review of the new Brabbins CD of symphonies 3 and 4:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Mar/VW_sys_CDA68280.htm

I saw there are already three reviews there, by Nick Barnard, John Quinn and Paul Corfield Godfrey respectively, all three largely consistent with my own preliminary findings, except that I dare to confess that I find them really outstanding, even compared with Previn's. For me, there are these three or four convincing cycles now: Boult I, Previn, Thomson and Brabbins.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 12, 2020, 01:59:58 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 12, 2020, 12:03:32 AM
I saw there are already three reviews there, by Nick Barnard, John Quinn and Paul Corfield Godfrey respectively, all three largely consistent with my own preliminary findings, except that I dare to confess that I find them really outstanding, even compared with Previn's. For me, there are these three or four convincing cycles now: Boult I, Previn, Thomson and Brabbins.  :)

Christo I agree with you - certainly the 3 older/complete cycles jostle with each other in terms of quality.  I am not so enamored of Brabbins' latest offering - its very good - especially No.3.  One comment in the most recent Music Web review puzzled me; "Previn's RCA version too displays a sense of caution in the remarkably slow pace he adopts for the first movement" [of Symphony 4].  Of course timings of a complete movement alone are a fallible guide showing no sense of ebb and flow.  But by timings alone Previn is only 18 seconds slower (8:45 compared to 8:27) which hardly equates to being "remarkably slow" in my dictionary of definitions!  Even if it were I think there is a valid interpretative argument for a grinding tectonic brutality that a slower pace can allow. 

What the new review does highlight - and I completely agree with - is how "easy" modern orchestras can make this work sound.  Which does make me ponder all over again whether effort and a "victory hard won" can add to the sense of a performance.  Wasn't it Richard Strauss who once complained that an orchestra he went to guest conduct were too well prepared and that he wanted his music to sound hard!! (this is all from memory so I might be completely wrong)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 12, 2020, 07:52:33 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 12, 2020, 12:03:32 AM
I saw there are already three reviews there, by Nick Barnard, John Quinn and Paul Corfield Godfrey respectively, all three largely consistent with my own preliminary findings, except that I dare to confess that I find them really outstanding, even compared with Previn's. For me, there are these three or four convincing cycles now: Boult I, Previn, Thomson and Brabbins.  :)
Very much agree with your choices notwithstanding some other excellent individual recordings, including:

Stokowski: Symphony 9
Abravanel: Symphony 6
Berglund: symphonies 4 and 6
Mitropolous: Symphony 4
Haitink: A Sea Symphony
Hickox: A London Symphony (1913)
Barbirolli: Symphony 2 and 5 (EMI)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 13, 2020, 08:13:24 AM
Symphony No. 9

This is a large work in more ways than one. For me, it sweeps and explores large expanses and horizons of the Vaughan-Williams musical world. The musical language is very interesting and engaging. I also find the juxtaposition of tones to be very absorbing. I would say that the overall tone is one of controlled turbulence.


Boult:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)


Boult's presentation of the first movement is suitably assertive and gentle in the appropriate passages. He is always lyrical and expansive. He has great control on the music but without ever stifling it. He is literally directing it where it wants to go itself. The second movement has a wonderfully disconcerting undercurrent to it which Boult explores and presents very well. Boult's version of the Scherzo reinforces and emphasises the atmospheric and dramatic nature of the overall tone of the work wonderfully well. After the power and intensity of what has gone previously that lyrical but somewhat restive final movement is a wonderful contrast. Boult lets the music float but never to drift. He rather guides it along aiding in the gradual build up to a fine conclusion and resolution.

Boult delivers a very fine presentation of this wonderful work. One feels that he is almost messaging the music his presentation is so well rounded.



Previn:


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)


Previn's presentation of the first movement is crisp, taut and tension filled. There is a sense of underlying power there that is controlled and not yet ready to be unleashed. The second movement begins to unleash the power in the music by giving a very fine, atmospheric and meditative performance of this sometimes poignant and intense music. Power and intensity once again prevail in the Scherzo in an ardent and dramatic performance. Previn's version of the final movement is not as delicate as Boult's version. Previn, for me, seems to be more concerned with the continuity of the overall tone of the work [which is valid]. I am getting a greater sense of the disconcerting undertones that prevail earlier in the performance with Previn. Previn, for me, has a much more ardent and purposeful approach to this movement and he succeeds very well in coming to a conclusive and definite resolution of the work.

I remember when I first heard this Previn cycle, Symphony No. 9 was my favourite performance in the set. I am not so sure that I would put it in that position so far ahead now but it certainly is an engaging and compelling one. It is a robust, atmospheric and profound presentation.   



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 14, 2020, 12:53:34 AM
Quote from: aligreto on March 13, 2020, 08:13:24 AM
Symphony No. 9
This is a large work in more ways than one. For me, it sweeps and explores large expanses and horizons of the Vaughan-Williams musical world. The musical language is very interesting and engaging. I also find the juxtaposition of tones to be very absorbing. I would say that the overall tone is one of controlled turbulence.

Boult:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL.jpg)
Boult's presentation of the first movement is suitably assertive and gentle in the appropriate passages. He is always lyrical and expansive. He has great control on the music but without ever stifling it. He is literally directing it where it wants to go itself. The second movement has a wonderfully disconcerting undercurrent to it which Boult explores and presents very well. Boult's version of the Scherzo reinforces and emphasises the atmospheric and dramatic nature of the overall tone of the work wonderfully well. After the power and intensity of what has gone previously that lyrical but somewhat restive final movement is a wonderful contrast. Boult lets the music float but never to drift. He rather guides it along aiding in the gradual build up to a fine conclusion and resolution.

Boult delivers a very fine presentation of this wonderful work. One feels that he is almost messaging the music his presentation is so well rounded.

Previn:
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dI0AAOSwU1NdUb4l/s-l1600.jpg)

Previn's presentation of the first movement is crisp, taut and tension filled. There is a sense of underlying power there that is controlled and not yet ready to be unleashed. The second movement begins to unleash the power in the music by giving a very fine, atmospheric and meditative performance of this sometimes poignant and intense music. Power and intensity once again prevail in the Scherzo in an ardent and dramatic performance. Previn's version of the final movement is not as delicate as Boult's version. Previn, for me, seems to be more concerned with the continuity of the overall tone of the work [which is valid]. I am getting a greater sense of the disconcerting undertones that prevail earlier in the performance with Previn. Previn, for me, has a much more ardent and purposeful approach to this movement and he succeeds very well in coming to a conclusive and definite resolution of the work.

I remember when I first heard this Previn cycle, Symphony No. 9 was my favourite performance in the set. I am not so sure that I would put it in that position so far ahead now but it certainly is an engaging and compelling one. It is a robust, atmospheric and profound presentation.   

Great to read all these 'fresh' and very interesting observations, many thanks, much appreciated. I came to regard No. 9 highly over the years, about as high as 'A Pastoral' and No. 6, my other two favourites. I can say that Stokowski, Boult I, Previn and Thomson are my preferred performances, but even the three (!) attempts by Andrew Davis are all very much worth exploring as is the one by Vernon Handley (his cycle overall very good too, perhaps too underrated, as is Bryden Thomson's who's my No. 1 in most symphonies).   :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 14, 2020, 12:59:10 AM
Interesting comparative discussion Fergus which I enjoyed reading. I think that Previn's No.9 is a strong performance but it was not one that I often listened to. I think that Boult's 1958 performance has a kind of granitic quality which appeals to me (I hesitate to use the word 'craggy'  ::)) and his later EMI recording has a reflective quality which appeals just as much to me in a different way. I loved the old LP coupled with the (definitely craggy) Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm Tune and the picture of Constable's painting of Stonehenge on the sleeve cover (you can now get a Japanese CD of that release). One recent version which impressed me was by Andrew Davis, not so much his new Chandos version or his old Warner version (which I both like) but the one given away with BBC Music Magazine.
Here it is again with Stonehenge on the cover:
(//)
PS this post crossed with Christo's interesting one above. I'm glad Johan that you rate the Stokowski recording highly as well.
Handley's No.9 has those wonderful harps at the end.
Ursula Vaughan Williams once wrote to me ( 0:)) referring to the Ninth Symphony as 'one of Ralph's strange and magical ones' and interestingly said that he told her that, in the symphony, he was 'burying his old colleagues' (Finzi had recently died and part of the Ninth Symphony had been composed at Finzi's house).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 14, 2020, 02:12:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 14, 2020, 12:59:10 AM
Interesting comparative discussion Fergus which I enjoyed reading. I think that Previn's No.9 is a strong performance but it was not one that I often listened to. I think that Boult's 1958 performance has a kind of granitic quality which appeals to me (I hesitate to use the word 'craggy'  ::)) and his later EMI recording has a reflective quality which appeals just as much to me in a different way. I loved the old LP coupled with the (definitely craggy) Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm Tune and the picture of Constable's painting of Stonehenge on the sleeve cover (you can now get a Japanese CD of that release). One recent version which impressed me was by Andrew Davis, not so much his new Chandos version or his old Warner version (which I both like) but one given away with BBC Music Magazine.

Which coincidentally I listened to last night. Luckily the Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm Tune is placed before the symphony otherwise I don't think I would have bothered with it, which would have been my loss. The Fantasia is a rare hybrid of piano, orchestra and choir. The only composer I can think who wrote a similar piece is Beethoven. The piano gets plenty of time as a solo instrument and Peter Katin plays superbly. A work I have not encountered before and greatly enjoyed. I managed not to mention "craggy" but it is. ;D   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 14, 2020, 02:23:47 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 14, 2020, 02:12:54 AM
Which coincidentally I listened to last night. Luckily the Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm Tune is placed before the symphony otherwise I don't think I would have bothered with it, which would have been my loss. The Fantasia is a rare hybrid of piano, orchestra and choir. The only composer I can think who wrote a similar piece is Beethoven. The piano gets plenty of time as a solo instrument and Peter Katin plays superbly. A work I have not encountered before and greatly enjoyed. I managed not to mention "craggy" but it is. ;D   
Interesting Lol. Glad you liked it. My brother slightly undermined my enjoyment of it by telling me that it reminded him of the children's record 'Sparky's Magic Piano'  ::)

For me that LP is one of the great VW discs.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 14, 2020, 04:25:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 14, 2020, 12:59:10 AM
Interesting comparative discussion Fergus which I enjoyed reading. I think that Previn's No.9 is a strong performance but it was not one that I often listened to. I think that Boult's 1958 performance has a kind of granitic quality which appeals to me (I hesitate to use the word 'craggy'  ::)) and his later EMI recording has a reflective quality which appeals just as much to me in a different way. I loved the old LP coupled with the (definitely craggy) Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm Tune and the picture of Constable's painting of Stonehenge on the sleeve cover (you can now get a Japanese CD of that release). One recent version which impressed me was by Andrew Davis, not so much his new Chandos version or his old Warner version (which I both like) but the one given away with BBC Music Magazine.
Here it is again with Stonehenge on the cover:
(//)
PS this post crossed with Christo's interesting one above. I'm glad Johan that you rate the Stokowski recording highly as well.
Handley's No.9 has those wonderful harps at the end.
Ursula Vaughan Williams once wrote to me ( 0:)) referring to the Ninth Symphony as 'one of Ralph's strange and magical ones' and interestingly said that he told her that, in the symphony, he was 'burying his old colleagues' (Finzi had recently died and part of the Ninth Symphony had been composed at Finzi's house).
I'll keep an eye out for that BBC one [I sometimes run across them at record shops, etc.].  How old is that one Jeffrey?

And lucky you!  How did it come to pass that you received a letter from Ursula Vaughan Williams?  :)

Best wishes,

PD

p.s.  Currently trying to get together shopping list for grocery store(s)....not looking forward to this today.   :-X
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 14, 2020, 04:26:48 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 14, 2020, 12:53:34 AM
Great to read all these 'fresh' and very interesting observations, many thanks, much appreciated.


Quote from: vandermolen on March 14, 2020, 12:59:10 AM
Interesting comparative discussion Fergus which I enjoyed reading.


Cheers guys. I was interested to see Johan's 'fresh' remark which immediately set me thinking. I think that they are, for me, a genuinely fresh look at these works because I have not listened to them in many years. I had listened on and off back then with mixed results. However, with some gentle prodding from Jeffrey, I decided to have another go and I now see them in a different light. Why so, I really do not know but there has flowed, in the intervening years, much music under that proverbial bridge and with a greater and wider listening experience the Vaughan Williams musical language now has a different appeal for me now. It has been an enjoyable and a definite worthwhile experience.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 14, 2020, 07:47:39 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 14, 2020, 04:25:17 AM
I'll keep an eye out for that BBC one [I sometimes run across them at record shops, etc.].  How old is that one Jeffrey?

And lucky you!  How did it come to pass that you received a letter from Ursula Vaughan Williams?  :)

Best wishes,

PD

p.s.  Currently trying to get together shopping list for grocery store(s)....not looking forward to this today.   :-X

Hi PD,
It's from 2011 but the performance is from the Proms in 2008.
I wrote a fan letter to her about her husband's music when I was 17. She sent a lovely reply and an inscribed copy of VW's book 'National Music and other Essays' which is still a treasured possession. On and off we communicated a bit by letter afterwards. I mean that I wrote to her and she always sent interesting replies.

Good luck with the shopping. Plenty of evidence of panic buying at the local supermarket.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 14, 2020, 08:48:13 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 14, 2020, 04:25:17 AM
I'll keep an eye out for that BBC one [I sometimes run across them at record shops, etc.].  How old is that one Jeffrey?

And lucky you!  How did it come to pass that you received a letter from Ursula Vaughan Williams?  :)

Best wishes,

PD

p.s.  Currently trying to get together shopping list for grocery store(s)....not looking forward to this today.   :-X

Good luck!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 15, 2020, 03:51:22 AM
I don't have the unbridled enthusiasm for Previn's recording of the 3rd Symphony that some here have, but I have been notified that it is now available in a variety of high-res formats from HDTT, with the first 3 minutes available as a free sample download in 24/96.  The Tuba Concerto is included.  The cover art is a little strange ...

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0778/3319/products/V.WilliamsPASTORALSYMPHONYPrevinLSOcover_large.png?v=1584105710)
HDTT page link (https://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/products/vaughan-williams-pastoral-symphony-tuba-concerto-andre-previn-london-symphony-pure-dsd)

This is not a recommendation, and I haven't listened to the free download.  In this case there is no indication as to the source - usually they do state in general terms whether its a master tape or an early unplayed vinyl or whatever.  I have bought two of their offerings, one (Sibelius 6 & 7 / Karajan) sounds entirely satisfactory and one (Shostakovich 1 & Cello Concerto / Ormandy) satisfactory with some reservations - and having sampled a few more via their free download offers have been able to decide against buying in those cases.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 15, 2020, 08:10:49 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 15, 2020, 03:51:22 AM
I don't have the unbridled enthusiasm for Previn's recording of the 3rd Symphony that some here have, but I have been notified that it is now available in a variety of high-res formats from HDTT, with the first 3 minutes available as a free sample download in 24/96.  The Tuba Concerto is included.  The cover art is a little strange ...

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0778/3319/products/V.WilliamsPASTORALSYMPHONYPrevinLSOcover_large.png?v=1584105710)
HDTT page link (https://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/products/vaughan-williams-pastoral-symphony-tuba-concerto-andre-previn-london-symphony-pure-dsd)

This is not a recommendation, and I haven't listened to the free download.  In this case there is no indication as to the source - usually they do state in general terms whether its a master tape or an early unplayed vinyl or whatever.  I have bought two of their offerings, one (Sibelius 6 & 7 / Karajan) sounds entirely satisfactory and one (Shostakovich 1 & Cello Concerto / Ormandy) satisfactory with some reservations - and having sampled a few more via their free download offers have been able to decide against buying in those cases.

I'd call my appreciation of the Previn recording of A Pastoral Symphony, gently bridled, indeed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 15, 2020, 01:37:12 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 15, 2020, 03:51:22 AM
I don't have the unbridled enthusiasm for Previn's recording of the 3rd Symphony that some here have, but I have been notified that it is now available in a variety of high-res formats from HDTT, with the first 3 minutes available as a free sample download in 24/96.  The Tuba Concerto is included.  The cover art is a little strange ...

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0778/3319/products/V.WilliamsPASTORALSYMPHONYPrevinLSOcover_large.png?v=1584105710)
HDTT page link (https://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/products/vaughan-williams-pastoral-symphony-tuba-concerto-andre-previn-london-symphony-pure-dsd)

This is not a recommendation, and I haven't listened to the free download.  In this case there is no indication as to the source - usually they do state in general terms whether its a master tape or an early unplayed vinyl or whatever.  I have bought two of their offerings, one (Sibelius 6 & 7 / Karajan) sounds entirely satisfactory and one (Shostakovich 1 & Cello Concerto / Ormandy) satisfactory with some reservations - and having sampled a few more via their free download offers have been able to decide against buying in those cases.

I remember some time ago - I think it was when Amazon still encouraged some kind of debate! - one contributor was very damming HDTT - specifically in regard to the famous Horenstein/LSO/Unicorn/Mahler 3 which while claiming some kind of hi-fidelity  remastering was really just a smoke and mirrors messing around with basic levels and EQ'ing.  To the point where the original engineer (Bob Auger??) had complained about their (HDTT's) mis-management of his original work.  I've rather steered clear of their - rather expensive - media ever since.  Any experience anyone?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 16, 2020, 08:48:12 AM
I think if a recording is more than 50 years old I really question what a Hi-res transfer can possibly bring to the party, in part because the original master tapes are likely to have deteriorated beyond help over that time, so any source material is likely to be 2nd or 3rd generation at best.  The Previn recording hasn't quite reached that arbitrary threshold yet - but as I say there is no information about the source material used for this issue.  The Horenstein/Mahler was a pretty horrible recording (1969? I was never a fan of Bob Auger's signature dry sound) and I think anyone remastering would be forgiven for trying to help it a bit.

As it happens I listened to the Shostakovich Cello Concerto only a couple of hours ago, and of the four works that I have from HDTT (ie 2 CDs-worth) this is the one that I feel has come up the best - though I do think the original is a remarkably good recording anyway, totally belying its date (1960) and label (CBS).  Its companion piece, the 1st Symphony, is marred by 'gating' which is audible even on speakers, and much more obvious on headphones.  Gating is a rapid expansion of low-level audio, as a process it is the inverse of limiting, and the audible effect is of ambient noise cutting out to black, eg between movements, and if too crudely done some reverberation tails get chopped.  The original recording - again very good in its own right - is far preferable to the HDTT version.

In the case of the classic Sibelius coupling from Karajan (date 1967), to my ears there is no difference to hear without detailed A/B comparison - I was looking for more bass heft in the 6th, which always sounds very thin to me, but it is not noticeably improved. 

I also wanted to get the Shostakovich Stepan Razin but on downloading the free sample I found it was quite noticeably compressed - just streaming this on Spotify sounds better (and also better than my own needledrop), so I was able to save my money.

But I wouldn't point the finger only at HDTT - I took an interest in the Hi-res release of Dvorak's 6th Symphony / Kertesz (rec 1965) obtainable from Presto, and compared just the 1st movement of that with various other digital releases and re-releases of the same recording, and my own needledrop.  Surface noise aside, the Hi-res release and my needledrop sound indistinguishable.  The other (older) digital releases are less compressed, which indirectly leads to them sounding a bit thinner and less good.  The Hi-res release has been subjected to mild compression in the louder sections, and also mild expansion in the very quiet passages - but most of this is only really evident on visual inspection of the audio waveforms.  The tweaking such as it is, is generally beneficial to the sound.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 16, 2020, 09:15:58 AM
Cross post from the Listening Thread:


Vaughan-Williams: Concerto Grosso & Oboe Concerto [Nicklin/Marriner]


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-hgAAOSwqxRa4vr1/s-l1600.jpg)


Concerto Grosso [Marriner] I like the straightforward nature of the musical language [given the nature of its commission] and the variety of tones in this work. It is an interesting and pleasant listen.

Oboe Concerto [Nicklin/Marriner] Wistful and haunting, lyrical and evocative are all adjectives that come to mind when I hear the first movement. The middle movement is charming and engaging. The final movement is initially like a runaway breeze which changes to a light, warm and sultry puff of air. The tempo picks up again somewhat and we conclude with something of a pastoral song on a light breeze finished off by a flock of chattering birds. That is what it sounds like to me but, hey, blame the wine if you want to!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2020, 09:30:59 AM
Quote from: aligreto on March 16, 2020, 09:15:58 AM
[...]

Oboe Concerto [Nicklin/Marriner] Wistful and haunting, lyrical and evocative are all adjectives that come to mind when I hear the first movement. The middle movement is charming and engaging. The final movement is initially like a runaway breeze which changes to a light, warm and sultry puff of air. The tempo picks up again somewhat and we conclude with something of a pastoral song on a light breeze finished off by a flock of chattering birds. That is what it sounds like to me but, hey, blame the wine if you want to!  ;D

Au contraire. Have another bottle! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2020, 10:34:28 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 16, 2020, 09:30:59 AM
Au contraire. Have another bottle! :)

Or: Sure! Have another bottle!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 16, 2020, 11:09:10 AM
Quote from: aligreto on March 16, 2020, 09:15:58 AM
Cross post from the Listening Thread:


Vaughan-Williams: Concerto Grosso & Oboe Concerto [Nicklin/Marriner]


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-hgAAOSwqxRa4vr1/s-l1600.jpg)


Concerto Grosso [Marriner] I like the straightforward nature of the musical language [given the nature of its commission] and the variety of tones in this work. It is an interesting and pleasant listen.

Oboe Concerto [Nicklin/Marriner] Wistful and haunting, lyrical and evocative are all adjectives that come to mind when I hear the first movement. The middle movement is charming and engaging. The final movement is initially like a runaway breeze which changes to a light, warm and sultry puff of air. The tempo picks up again somewhat and we conclude with something of a pastoral song on a light breeze finished off by a flock of chattering birds. That is what it sounds like to me but, hey, blame the wine if you want to!  ;D

A nice LP. The two Warlock pieces are good too. Beside Capriol Suite I like the Serenade, a tribute to his idol, Delius.

Enjoy your wine as long not in a pub, restaurant or any other place other then home. >:(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2020, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 16, 2020, 10:34:28 AM
Or: Sure! Have another bottle!  8)

Sure!

Or: Whatever. Have another bottle.

Seriously now: I meant what I wrote (I think), even though I had no wine myself. It's nice to read comments or reviews with impressions that include all senses.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2020, 01:28:30 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 16, 2020, 11:49:18 AM
Sure!

Or: Whatever. Have another bottle.

Seriously now: I meant what I wrote (I think), even though I had no wine myself. It's nice to read comments or reviews with impressions that include all senses.

Aye, and there was nothing wrong with what you wrote!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 16, 2020, 01:42:14 PM
Cheers guys. Just to be clear there was actually no wine involved at any point. I have always been partial to an oboe concerto. The Vaughan Williams Oboe Concerto just hit a perticular spot at the time. This evening I enjoyed the R Strauss Oboe Concerto. There is just something wonderfully airy and flighty about the instrument in concertante mode that I find really appealing. The Vaughan Williams Oboe Concerto is a case in point; airy, flighty and sometimes ethereal  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2020, 11:00:48 PM
Quote from: aligreto on March 16, 2020, 01:42:14 PM
Cheers guys. Just to be clear there was actually no wine involved at any point. I have always been partial to an oboe concerto. The Vaughan Williams Oboe Concerto just hit a perticular spot at the time. This evening I enjoyed the R Strauss Oboe Concerto. There is just something wonderfully airy and flighty about the instrument in concertante mode that I find really appealing. The Vaughan Williams Oboe Concerto is a case in point; airy, flighty and sometimes ethereal  8)
I tend to agree. The coupling with the Concerto Grosso and the Warlock works, posted above, is very nice indeed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 28, 2020, 09:21:33 AM
Vaughan Williams: Job [Boult]


(https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/360/0612/03/lxt-2937-vaughan-williams-job-sir_360_0624af31b10382e69dafcf9d93f5e42f.jpg)


I was never really too sure about this work. I am not a "Ballet" person so perhaps I would need to experience a live version of a performance of this work to fully appreciate it. I do get the idea of the relationship between the music and the paintings of Blake [as opposed to the biblical reference]. I also find it atmospheric. Perhaps this is one for the RVW connoisseurs or perhaps it is just my relative unfamiliarity with the work and Vaughan Williams' "voice" that I do not connect or engage with this work so much. Any guidance or thoughts would be welcome.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 28, 2020, 02:26:13 PM
Quote from: aligreto on March 28, 2020, 09:21:33 AM
Vaughan Williams: Job [Boult]


(https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/360/0612/03/lxt-2937-vaughan-williams-job-sir_360_0624af31b10382e69dafcf9d93f5e42f.jpg)


I was never really too sure about this work. I am not a "Ballet" person so perhaps I would need to experience a live version of a performance of this work to fully appreciate it. I do get the idea of the relationship between the music and the paintings of Blake [as opposed to the biblical reference]. I also find it atmospheric. Perhaps this is one for the RVW connoisseurs or perhaps it is just my relative unfamiliarity with the work and Vaughan Williams' "voice" that I do not connect or engage with this work so much. Any guidance or thoughts would be welcome.
Vaughan Williams had a bit of a complex about the word 'ballet' and called it a 'Masque for Dancing'. I like Job very much but it took me a while to appreciate. The first time I heard the work was a live concert at the Festival Hall in Lonon on 12th October 1972 - the centenary of VW's birth. I was seventeen. I subsequently bought the Boult EMI LP. It is a work which features both the pastoral and violent sides of VW's musical personality. The final sections I find especially moving. It was composed only a decade after the First World War and I wonder if the music, to some extent, reflects VW's wartime experience.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 29, 2020, 02:48:24 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 28, 2020, 02:26:13 PM
Vaughan Williams had a bit of a complex about the word 'ballet' and called it a 'Masque for Dancing'. I like Job very much but it took me a while to appreciate. The first time I heard the work was a live concert at the Festival Hall in Lonon on 12th October 1972 - the centenary of VW's birth. I was seventeen. I subsequently bought the Boult EMI LP. It is a work which features both the pastoral and violent sides of VW's musical personality. The final sections I find especially moving. It was composed only a decade after the First World War and I wonder if the music, to some extent, reflects VW's wartime experience.

Thank you Jeffrey. I think that I can only persevere with it. It goes back onto the shelf awaiting its next airing in......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 29, 2020, 02:50:53 AM
Quote from: aligreto on March 29, 2020, 02:48:24 AM
Thank you Jeffrey. I think that I can only persevere with it. It goes back onto the shelf awaiting its next airing in......
My pleasure Fergus. I hope that you get to like it. Because it's dedicated to Boult he made at least four recordings of it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 29, 2020, 02:56:56 AM
Quote from: aligreto on March 28, 2020, 09:21:33 AM
Vaughan Williams: Job [Boult]


(https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/360/0612/03/lxt-2937-vaughan-williams-job-sir_360_0624af31b10382e69dafcf9d93f5e42f.jpg)


I was never really too sure about this work. I am not a "Ballet" person so perhaps I would need to experience a live version of a performance of this work to fully appreciate it. I do get the idea of the relationship between the music and the paintings of Blake [as opposed to the biblical reference]. I also find it atmospheric. Perhaps this is one for the RVW connoisseurs or perhaps it is just my relative unfamiliarity with the work and Vaughan Williams' "voice" that I do not connect or engage with this work so much. Any guidance or thoughts would be welcome.

Not really much to say except that Job is one of my favourite RVW works and I loved it on first hearing. Boult/LSO is my favourite version by a long way. I'm not a ballet fan and the thought of seeing Job staged makes my blood run cold.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 29, 2020, 02:58:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 29, 2020, 02:50:53 AM
My pleasure Fergus. I hope that you get to like it. Because it's dedicated to Boult he made at least four recordings of it!

Cheers Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on March 29, 2020, 03:02:16 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 29, 2020, 02:56:56 AM
Not really much to say except that Job is one of my favourite RVW works and I loved it on first hearing. Boult/LSO is my favourite version by a long way. I'm not a ballet fan and the thought of seeing Job staged makes my blood run cold.

That is an interesting comment because, as I listened to it, I kept thinking to myself how on earth could one stage this. I think that trying to visualise this was part of my issue with it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 29, 2020, 03:11:04 AM
Quote from: aligreto on March 29, 2020, 03:02:16 AM
That is an interesting comment because, as I listened to it, I kept thinking to myself how on earth could one stage this. I think that trying to visualise this was part of my issue with it.

RVW offered it to Diaghilev who turned it down. RVW wrote ' I feel that the Russian Ballet would have made an unholy mess of it with their over-developed calves'. Probably better to just leave it to your own imagination.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 29, 2020, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 29, 2020, 02:56:56 AM
Not really much to say except that Job is one of my favourite RVW works and I loved it on first hearing. Boult/LSO is my favourite version by a long way. I'm not a ballet fan and the thought of seeing Job staged makes my blood run cold.
I think that is my favourite version too. It has a depth and spirituality about it which I find very moving.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 30, 2020, 04:56:48 PM
I am not sure if this is the right thread for my question, but I am listening to the late John Joubert's (1927-2019) English Requiem (2010) and find it gorgeous and moving.  It is heavily influenced by RVW.  I am wondering, with the loss of Joubert and Aurthur Butterworth (1923-2014), are there any active composers living today who are overtly influenced by RVW or where these two the last?...those who knew him personally?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Daverz on March 30, 2020, 06:59:14 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 30, 2020, 04:56:48 PM
I am not sure if this is the right thread for my question, but I am listening to the late John Joubert's (1927-2019) English Requiem (2010) and find it gorgeous and moving.  It is heavily influenced by RVW.  I am wondering, with the loss of Joubert and Aurthur Butterworth (1923-2014), are there any active composers living today who are overtly influenced by RVW or where these two the last?...those who knew him personally?

I'd also recommend Arnold Rosner, but also no longer with us, unforntuately.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2020, 12:15:14 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 30, 2020, 06:59:14 PM
I'd also recommend Arnold Rosner, but also no longer with us, unforntuately.
I agree. I liked Rosner's music and communicated with him about it. He said that when he came to London he'd be interested to meet up (I think his sister lives here) but sadly it wasn't to be.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 01, 2020, 01:37:10 AM
Another deceased composer, yet a name I never encountered before in RVW Land, being Nino Rota (1911-1979). Listening to his early Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2 (both mid-1930s, the First completed in 1935, the Second started at the same time, but finished in 1939) I read the booklet notes, by Michele René Mannucci.

He writes: "[Rota] travelled to the United States on a study bursary to attend The Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia. There he worked with Frits Reiner, taking advantage of his weekends to pay frequent visits to the apartment of Arturo Toscanini in New York. Here he had the opportunity to mix with many illustrious musicians, including Samuel Barber, Aaron Copland and, most importantly of all, Ralph Vaughan Williams. As we shall see, the influence of Vaughan Williams was to become evident especially where the art of orchestration and a taste for musical landscape painting carried to extremes were concerned."

Writing about the second movement of Symphony No. 1, an Andante, he writes: "Similarly striking is the contrast presented by the second movement, in which the woodwind often give way to the draker timbre of the brass - almost a prophetic vision of the imminent Second World War - over a string foundation in which echoes of the afternoons spent with Vaughan Williams in Toscanini's apartment are present in profusion."

Writing about the third movement of Symphony No. 2, an Andante con moto, he returns: "If in the nocturnal atmosphere of the third movement, strings and horns return to the austerity of Vaughan Williams' symphonic style as encountered in Symphony No. 1, the fourth is nothing other than an extenuating beating out of dotted rhythms beneath a soft, velvety melodic mantle, a clear musical depiction of that freedom of expression so dear to Rota (...) [ough 8)].

Echoes of the afternoons spent with RVW in Toscanini's apartment - I'd never read that story before, nor knew about Rota's indebtedness. Did any of you, and who knows more about it?  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 01, 2020, 04:43:02 AM
Quote from: Christo on April 01, 2020, 01:37:10 AM
Another deceased composer, yet a name I never encountered before in RVW Land, being Nino Rota (1911-1979). Listening to his early Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2 (both mid-1930s, the First completed in 1935, the Second started at the same time, but finished in 1939) I read the booklet notes, by Michele René Mannucci.

He writes: "[Rota] travelled to the United States on a study bursary to attend The Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia. There he worked with Frits Reiner, taking advantage of his weekends to pay frequent visits to the apartment of Arturo Toscanini in New York. Here he had the opportunity to mix with many illustrious musicians, including Samuel Barber, Aaron Copland and, most importantly of all, Ralph Vaughan Williams. As we shall see, the influence of Vaughan Williams was to become evident especially where the art of orchestration and a taste for musical landscape painting carried to extremes were concerned."

Writing about the second movement of Symphony No. 1, an Andante, he writes: "Similarly striking is the contrast presented by the second movement, in which the woodwind often give way to the draker timbre of the brass - almost a prophetic vision of the imminent Second World War - over a string foundation in which echoes of the afternoons spent with Vaughan Williams in Toscanini's apartment are present in profusion."

Writing about the third movement of Symphony No. 2, an Andante con moto, he returns: "If in the nocturnal atmosphere of the third movement, strings and horns return to the austerity of Vaughan Williams' symphonic style as encountered in Symphony No. 1, the fourth is nothing other than an extenuating beating out of dotted rhythms beneath a soft, velvety melodic mantle, a clear musical depiction of that freedom of expression so dear to Rota (...) [ough 8)].

Echoes of the afternoons spent with RVW in Toscanini's apartment - I'd never read that story before, nor knew about Rota's indebtedness. Did any of you, and who knows more about it?  ::)
Never heard of that Johan. How interesting. What's your take on the symphonies by Nino Rota, which I've never heard?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on April 11, 2020, 12:44:46 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 01, 2020, 04:43:02 AM
Never heard of that Johan. How interesting. What's your take on the symphonies by Nino Rota, which I've never heard?
To be honest, it took me a while to be able to answer. Now I can confirm that these two - the first two, both finished in 1939, there are two more - come as a pleasant surprise. The melodies are often soaringly beautiful, what is missing is perhaps the real symphonic tension. I think it's understandable that he became a film composer first and for all, his melodic gift is rare, e.g. the opening movement of the First is beautiful as a dream. Some of his melodic writing is even reminiscent - gently flowing, highly inspired and easy-going at the same time - of good old Braga Santos.  ;D

RVW's inspiration is easily recognizable, though more in the sense of folk song melodies than, again, in symphonic thinking. Nevertheless, I ordered for the other two symphonies, also Chandos, immediately. Recommended.

BTW, still wondering about 'Vaughan Williams staying in Toscanini's apartment' in the early or mid 1930s - I should check that story, but it seems incredible, isn't it? What could the author be referring at?  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on April 11, 2020, 05:41:19 PM
That Rota-VW connection is intriguing. I've heard Rota's symphonies but I never was aware of something like that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on April 11, 2020, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: Christo on April 11, 2020, 12:44:46 PM
To be honest, it took me a while to be able to answer. Now I can confirm that these two - the first two, both finished in 1939, there are two more - come as a pleasant surprise. The melodies are often soaringly beautiful, what is missing is perhaps the real symphonic tension. I think it's understandable that he became a film composer first and for all, his melodic gift is rare, e.g. the opening movement of the First is beautiful as a dream. Some of his melodic writing is even reminiscent - gently flowing, highly inspired and easy-going at the same time - of good old Braga Santos.  ;D

RVW's inspiration is easily recognizable, though more in the sense of folk song melodies than, again, in symphonic thinking. Nevertheless, I ordered for the other two symphonies, also Chandos, immediately. Recommended.

BTW, still wondering about 'Vaughan Williams staying in Toscanini's apartment' in the early or mid 1930s - I should check that story, but it seems incredible, isn't it? What could the author be referring at?  ::)

Presumably during in 1932
QuoteIn 1932 Vaughan Williams was elected president of the English Folk Dance and Song Society. From September to December of that year he was in the US as a visiting lecturer at Bryn Mawr College, Pennsylvania

Rota was near the end of his study at the Curtis at that point.
QuoteEncouraged by Arturo Toscanini, Rota moved to the United States where he lived from 1930 to 1932. He won a scholarship to the Curtis Institute of Philadelphia, where he was taught conducting by Fritz Reiner and had Rosario Scalero as an instructor in composition.

(Quotes from Wikipedia biographies of the respective composers)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 12, 2020, 01:29:41 AM
Quote from: Christo on April 11, 2020, 12:44:46 PM
To be honest, it took me a while to be able to answer. Now I can confirm that these two - the first two, both finished in 1939, there are two more - come as a pleasant surprise. The melodies are often soaringly beautiful, what is missing is perhaps the real symphonic tension. I think it's understandable that he became a film composer first and for all, his melodic gift is rare, e.g. the opening movement of the First is beautiful as a dream. Some of his melodic writing is even reminiscent - gently flowing, highly inspired and easy-going at the same time - of good old Braga Santos.  ;D

RVW's inspiration is easily recognizable, though more in the sense of folk song melodies than, again, in symphonic thinking. Nevertheless, I ordered for the other two symphonies, also Chandos, immediately. Recommended.

BTW, still wondering about 'Vaughan Williams staying in Toscanini's apartment' in the early or mid 1930s - I should check that story, but it seems incredible, isn't it? What could the author be referring at?  ::)
Interesting Johan. Thanks. Happy Easter in these difficult times.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 12, 2020, 02:28:53 AM
RVW visited the USA three times, in 1922, 1932 and 1954. If he did meet Toscanini 1932 seems the most likely because of the overlap with Rota. However, none of his letters mention a meeting and I can't find any references in my recent reading except when Toscanini came to London in 1935 and conducted the BBC Symphony Orchestra. Adrian Boult arranged for RVW to attend the rehearsals.

It doesn't, of course. mean it didn't happen but at the moment it is a bit elusive.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2020, 02:18:05 PM
I recall a discussion a while back about the superscriptions before each movement of Sinfonia Antartica and whether they should be read out or not. With that in mind I was interested in an article on recording the Vaughan Williams symphonies by Andrew Keener in the latest edition of the RVW Society Journal in which the following is stated:

'...'[Gielgud's] participation approved by Vaughan Williams himself for Boult's first recording' (of Sinfonia Antartica;) so it seems that VW did approve of the spoken commentary before the movements.




Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 15, 2020, 12:51:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2020, 02:18:05 PM
I recall a discussion a while back about the superscriptions before each movement of Sinfonia Antartica and whether they should be read out or not. With that in mind I was interested in an article on recording the Vaughan Williams symphonies by Andrew Keener in the latest edition of the RVW Society Journal in which the following is stated:

'...'[Gielgud's] participation approved by Vaughan Williams himself for Boult's first recording' (of Sinfonia Antartica;) so it seems that VW did approve of the spoken commentary before the movements.

Possibly it just means RVW approved it (or aquiesced) for that recording. There were no spoken superscriptions for Barbirolli's world premiere recording and Boult didn't repeat the experiment in his later recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2020, 05:43:29 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 15, 2020, 12:51:13 AM
Possibly it just means RVW approved it (or aquiesced) for that recording. There were no spoken superscriptions for Barbirolli's world premiere recording and Boult didn't repeat the experiment in his later recording.
Yes, that's quite true, although other conductors (Previn for example) did include them - but at least it shows that they weren't included without Vaughan Williams's approval.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on June 20, 2020, 01:52:24 PM
Recently I've fell in love with A Road All Paved With Stars, which is a 27-minute "orchestral synthesis/symphonic rhapsody" created by Adrian Williams of key themes from RVW's opera The Poisoned Kiss (which I haven't heard). Purists may not like this, I suppose, and I'm not sure how much of it is "pure" RVW. But, quite frankly, I do not care! This is truly some glorious, heart-easing, tuneful, and characterful music which I urge you all to hear. It completely exceeded my expectations! It's included on this CD:

[asin]B01J2MF3TO[/asin]

https://youtu.be/FbLgH5YFb-s
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on June 20, 2020, 02:05:17 PM
Quote from: kyjo on June 20, 2020, 01:52:24 PM
Recently I've fell in love with A Road All Paved With Stars, which is a 27-minute "orchestral synthesis/symphonic rhapsody" created by Adrian Williams of key themes from RVW's opera Sir John in Love (which I haven't heard). Purists may not like this, I suppose, and I'm not sure how much of it is "pure" RVW. But, quite frankly, I do not care! This is truly some glorious, heart-easing, tuneful, and characterful music which I urge you all to hear. It completely exceeded my expectations! It's included on this CD:

[asin]B01J2MF3TO[/asin]

https://youtu.be/FbLgH5YFb-s

That sounds nice to hear, Kyle. I have heard that opera, it features some mellifluous and lovely music. The best moments are found in acts III and IV. As a synthesis that piece should work rather well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 20, 2020, 03:12:41 PM
Quote from: kyjo on June 20, 2020, 01:52:24 PM
Recently I've fell in love with A Road All Paved With Stars, which is a 27-minute "orchestral synthesis/symphonic rhapsody" created by Adrian Williams of key themes from RVW's opera Sir John in Love (which I haven't heard). Purists may not like this, I suppose, and I'm not sure how much of it is "pure" RVW. But, quite frankly, I do not care! This is truly some glorious, heart-easing, tuneful, and characterful music which I urge you all to hear. It completely exceeded my expectations! It's included on this CD:

[asin]B01J2MF3TO[/asin]

https://youtu.be/FbLgH5YFb-s

Should be good, but I hope it brings more people to listen to Sir John in Love itself, which is great.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2020, 03:35:04 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 20, 2020, 03:12:41 PM
Should be good, but I hope it brings more people to listen to Sir John in Love itself, which is great.

I doubt it will. I don't think Kyle is too keen on operatic music and, quite frankly, I'm not too far behind him in that opinion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 21, 2020, 12:35:18 AM
Quote from: kyjo on June 20, 2020, 01:52:24 PM
Recently I've fell in love with A Road All Paved With Stars, which is a 27-minute "orchestral synthesis/symphonic rhapsody" created by Adrian Williams of key themes from RVW's opera Sir John in Love (which I haven't heard). Purists may not like this, I suppose, and I'm not sure how much of it is "pure" RVW. But, quite frankly, I do not care! This is truly some glorious, heart-easing, tuneful, and characterful music which I urge you all to hear. It completely exceeded my expectations! It's included on this CD:

[asin]B01J2MF3TO[/asin]

https://youtu.be/FbLgH5YFb-s
Oh interesting Kyle. I have that CD so must listen to that work, although other than 'Riders to the Sea' and 'Pilgrim's Progress', I never listen to VW's operas. Maybe I should?

Placing this here because Grace Williams was a pupil of VW's and her impressive Second Symphony might appeal to admirers of VW's symphonies 6 and 4. I played Grace Williams's symphony yesterday and the themes have been running through my head ever since. This ranks with the 4th Symphony of Ruth Gipps as my favourite written by a female composer. I wonder how many others here know this work:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 21, 2020, 02:16:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 21, 2020, 12:35:18 AM
Oh interesting Kyle. I have that CD so must listen to that work, although other than 'Riders to the Sea' and 'Pilgrim's Progress', I never listen to VW's operas. Maybe I should?

Placing this here because Grace Williams was a pupil of VW's and her impressive Second Symphony might appeal to admirers of VW's symphonies 6 and 4. I played Grace Williams's symphony yesterday and the themes have been running through my head ever since. This ranks with the 4th Symphony of Ruth Gipps as my favourite written by a female composer. I wonder how many others here know this work:
(//)

You should give Hugh the Drover at least one try. RVW called it a ballad opera and some might find it a bit too folky but it has some fine music. If you don't fancy the idea of the complete opera there is a abridged version called A Cotswold Romance .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 21, 2020, 02:23:22 AM
Quote from: kyjo on June 20, 2020, 01:52:24 PM
Recently I've fell in love with A Road All Paved With Stars, which is a 27-minute "orchestral synthesis/symphonic rhapsody" created by Adrian Williams of key themes from RVW's opera Sir John in Love (which I haven't heard). Purists may not like this, I suppose, and I'm not sure how much of it is "pure" RVW. But, quite frankly, I do not care! This is truly some glorious, heart-easing, tuneful, and characterful music which I urge you all to hear. It completely exceeded my expectations! It's included on this CD:

[asin]B01J2MF3TO[/asin]

https://youtu.be/FbLgH5YFb-s

A Road paved with Stars is a synthesis of "The Poisoned Kiss" NOT "Sir John in Love"
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 21, 2020, 03:12:40 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 21, 2020, 02:16:23 AM
You should give Hugh the Drover at least one try. RVW called it a ballad opera and some might find it a bit too folky but it has some fine music. If you don't fancy the idea of the complete opera there is a abridged version called A Cotswold Romance .
Thank you Biffo. I have a complete recording of 'Hugh the Drover' and the Cotswold work. I think that I've made a couple of attempts with 'Hugh' but gave up after a few minutes finding it too 'hey, nonny, no - Ye Olde English Tea Shoppe' - but that is, no doubt, a comment on my own intolerance rather than anything else. So, thanks for the suggestion and I will have another battle with Hugh soon.

Also, I can't stand Morris Dancing (my wife loves watching it - which is my idea of Hell)  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on June 21, 2020, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on June 20, 2020, 02:05:17 PM
That sounds nice to hear, Kyle. I have heard that opera, it features some mellifluous and lovely music. The best moments are found in acts III and IV. As a synthesis that piece should work rather well.

Good to know about the complete opera, Cesar. I should give it a spin at some point. I assume you're referring to Sir John in Love, which I erroneously said A Road Paved With Stars is based off.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on June 21, 2020, 04:17:50 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 21, 2020, 02:23:22 AM
A Road paved with Stars is a synthesis of "The Poisoned Kiss" NOT "Sir John in Love"

You're right! My apologies. :-[
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on June 21, 2020, 04:26:01 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2020, 03:35:04 PM
I doubt it will. I don't think Kyle is too keen on operatic music and, quite frankly, I'm not too far behind him in that opinion.

Actually, I've been slowly getting into opera, and have enjoyed some of the few that I've listened to recently. The main reason I don't listen to more opera is not really because of dislike for the genre, but mainly just because of the sheer time commitment of sitting down to listen to an often 2 1/2 or 3 hour long (or longer!) work. Hearing Puccini's Turandot on the radio yesterday and being quite enthralled by it reminded me that I need to set aside more time to listen to opera!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2020, 06:53:01 PM
Quote from: kyjo on June 21, 2020, 04:26:01 PM
Actually, I've been slowly getting into opera, and have enjoyed some of the few that I've listened to recently. The main reason I don't listen to more opera is not really because of dislike for the genre, but mainly just because of the sheer time commitment of sitting down to listen to an often 2 1/2 or 3 hour long (or longer!) work. Hearing Puccini's Turandot on the radio yesterday and being quite enthralled by it reminded me that I need to set aside more time to listen to opera!

Personally, there's just never enough orchestral meat for me in opera, but some of my favorites are a bold exception as they do have many wonderful orchestral moments.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 22, 2020, 07:06:21 AM
Quote from: kyjo on June 20, 2020, 01:52:24 PM
Recently I've fell in love with A Road All Paved With Stars, which is a 27-minute "orchestral synthesis/symphonic rhapsody" created by Adrian Williams of key themes from RVW's opera The Poisoned Kiss (which I haven't heard). Purists may not like this, I suppose, and I'm not sure how much of it is "pure" RVW. But, quite frankly, I do not care! This is truly some glorious, heart-easing, tuneful, and characterful music which I urge you all to hear. It completely exceeded my expectations! It's included on this CD:

[asin]B01J2MF3TO[/asin]

https://youtu.be/FbLgH5YFb-s
Sounds intriguing Kyle!  I don't know the other works on that CD.  Are they early works of Vaughan Williams?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 22, 2020, 07:08:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 21, 2020, 12:35:18 AM
Placing this here because Grace Williams was a pupil of VW's and her impressive Second Symphony might appeal to admirers of VW's symphonies 6 and 4. I played Grace Williams's symphony yesterday and the themes have been running through my head ever since. This ranks with the 4th Symphony of Ruth Gipps as my favourite written by a female composer. I wonder how many others here know this work:
(//)
I don't know her works Jeffrey, but you've certainly intrigued me! 

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 22, 2020, 07:46:25 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 22, 2020, 07:08:00 AM
I don't know her works Jeffrey, but you've certainly intrigued me! 

PD

Set in stone Bantock this evening but thanks to Jeffrey the earth has moved and Grace Williams comes out top. As I recall the symphony Jeffrey is correct in comparing Williams 2nd to the most driven of Vaughan Williams symphonies. I am due a revisit anyway.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 22, 2020, 08:19:23 AM
I might have to get that Grace Williams recording. Damn, this forum is costing me a lot of money. ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on June 22, 2020, 08:33:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 21, 2020, 06:53:01 PM
Personally, there's just never enough orchestral meat for me in opera, but some of my favorites are a bold exception as they do have many wonderful orchestral moments.

I find there to be enough orchestral "meat" in the 20th-century operas I've heard! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 22, 2020, 08:35:52 AM
Quote from: kyjo on June 22, 2020, 08:33:54 AM
I find there to be enough orchestral "meat" in the 20th-century operas I've heard! :)

I'm not keen on the way the vocals are written in operatic music, so that's my main objection about operas in general.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on June 22, 2020, 08:36:52 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 22, 2020, 07:06:21 AM
Sounds intriguing Kyle!  I don't know the other works on that CD.  Are they early works of Vaughan Williams?

PD

Hi PD, here's part of the Amazon blurb for the CD:

Discoveries don't come much more rewarding than Vaughan Williams's Three Nocturnes. Dating from 1908, they are settings of his favourite poet Walt Whitman. Now Anthony Payne has orchestrated the two not orchestrated by Vaughan Williams - and a marvellous job he has done, too, bringing out every adventurous facet of this often astonishingly forward-looking music. Payne's consummate understanding of the idiom is also evident in the deeply touching Four Last Songs. Roderick Williams and Jennifer Johnston are on stellar form, while Martyn Brabbins and the BBC SO give of their very best both here and in two purely orchestral offerings. Of the 11 film scores that Vaughan Williams penned between 1940 and 1956, only one was lost: Stricken Peninsula is a short propaganda film from 1945 about the Allied Armies' aid efforts in southern Italy, and Philip Lane has fashioned some of the best ideas he was able to hear behind the narration on the original soundtrack into an eight-minute 'Italian Rhapsody'. A Road All Paved with Stars: this sumptuous 27-minute symphonic essay by Adrian Williams does ample justice to its source material's soaring lyricism and tender warmth. --Andrew Achenbach, Gramophone, November 2016
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 22, 2020, 11:18:12 AM
Quote from: kyjo on June 22, 2020, 08:36:52 AM
Hi PD, here's part of the Amazon blurb for the CD:

Discoveries don't come much more rewarding than Vaughan Williams's Three Nocturnes. Dating from 1908, they are settings of his favourite poet Walt Whitman. Now Anthony Payne has orchestrated the two not orchestrated by Vaughan Williams - and a marvellous job he has done, too, bringing out every adventurous facet of this often astonishingly forward-looking music. Payne's consummate understanding of the idiom is also evident in the deeply touching Four Last Songs. Roderick Williams and Jennifer Johnston are on stellar form, while Martyn Brabbins and the BBC SO give of their very best both here and in two purely orchestral offerings. Of the 11 film scores that Vaughan Williams penned between 1940 and 1956, only one was lost: Stricken Peninsula is a short propaganda film from 1945 about the Allied Armies' aid efforts in southern Italy, and Philip Lane has fashioned some of the best ideas he was able to hear behind the narration on the original soundtrack into an eight-minute 'Italian Rhapsody'. A Road All Paved with Stars: this sumptuous 27-minute symphonic essay by Adrian Williams does ample justice to its source material's soaring lyricism and tender warmth. --Andrew Achenbach, Gramophone, November 2016
Thanks Kyle!   :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on June 22, 2020, 12:03:39 PM
Quote from: kyjo on June 21, 2020, 04:17:05 PM
Good to know about the complete opera, Cesar. I should give it a spin at some point. I assume you're referring to Sir John in Love, which I erroneously said A Road Paved With Stars is based off.

I've heard all of his operas (I think). Most of them are truly stunning.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on June 22, 2020, 12:06:46 PM
Quote from: kyjo on June 21, 2020, 04:26:01 PM
Actually, I've been slowly getting into opera, and have enjoyed some of the few that I've listened to recently. The main reason I don't listen to more opera is not really because of dislike for the genre, but mainly just because of the sheer time commitment of sitting down to listen to an often 2 1/2 or 3 hour long (or longer!) work. Hearing Puccini's Turandot on the radio yesterday and being quite enthralled by it reminded me that I need to set aside more time to listen to opera!

That's a good symptom! And you've heard one of the most unabashedly glorious operas ever IMO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2020, 12:00:35 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 22, 2020, 07:08:00 AM
I don't know her works Jeffrey, but you've certainly intrigued me! 

PD
Well PD I'd certainly recommend Symphony No.2 but I actually enjoy everything that I have heard from her.
Quote from: Irons on June 22, 2020, 07:46:25 AM
Set in stone Bantock this evening but thanks to Jeffrey the earth has moved and Grace Williams comes out top. As I recall the symphony Jeffrey is correct in comparing Williams 2nd to the most driven of Vaughan Williams symphonies. I am due a revisit anyway.
When you get round to it Lol I'd be interested to hear your opinion of it. I've listened to it several time over the last few days and find it a searching, urgent and memorable symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 23, 2020, 07:14:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2020, 12:00:35 AM
Well PD I'd certainly recommend Symphony No.2 but I actually enjoy everything that I have heard from her.When you get round to it Lol I'd be interested to hear your opinion of it. I've listened to it several time over the last few days and find it a searching, urgent and memorable symphony.

Listened last night, Jeffrey. You have hit the nail squarely on the head with "searching, urgent and memorable". From the first note to last Williams is urgently and restlessly searching and this is what this work is all about (not the music you would expect from a lady resembling your favourite aunt!). The RVW influence is there alright, in fact you could slot this in his symphonic oeuvre and it would not be out of place, it is that good. I did also wonder if Shostakovich is lurking somewhere, especially in the first movement. Jeffrey is right to bring this symphony to our notice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 23, 2020, 07:20:12 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 23, 2020, 07:14:47 AM
Listened last night, Jeffrey. You have hit the nail squarely on the head with "searching, urgent and memorable". From the first note to last Williams is urgently and restlessly searching and this is what this work is all about (not the music you would expect from a lady resembling your favourite aunt!). The RVW influence is there alright, in fact you could slot this in his symphonic oeuvre and it would not be out of place, it is that good. I did also wonder if Shostakovich is lurking somewhere, especially in the first movement. Jeffrey is right to bring this symphony to our notice.
Nice!  I'll look to see whether or not I can find any of her music online...or perhaps through the library, now that it's opening up again.   :)

PD

EDIT:  I did find at least two uploads on youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGvvS8tDzd8  and here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvcTJ-hIyc0
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2020, 11:37:22 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 23, 2020, 07:14:47 AM
Listened last night, Jeffrey. You have hit the nail squarely on the head with "searching, urgent and memorable". From the first note to last Williams is urgently and restlessly searching and this is what this work is all about (not the music you would expect from a lady resembling your favourite aunt!). The RVW influence is there alright, in fact you could slot this in his symphonic oeuvre and it would not be out of place, it is that good. I did also wonder if Shostakovich is lurking somewhere, especially in the first movement. Jeffrey is right to bring this symphony to our notice.
Delighted that you enjoyed it Lol. I had the original LP release and liked it from the start. I was amused by your 'favourite aunt' comment but I wonder if the work would be better known had it been written by a male composer. Of course that shouldn't be the case but it wouldn't entirely surprise me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2020, 11:38:34 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 23, 2020, 07:20:12 AM
Nice!  I'll look to see whether or not I can find any of her music online...or perhaps through the library, now that it's opening up again.   :)

PD

EDIT:  I did find at least two uploads on youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGvvS8tDzd8  and here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvcTJ-hIyc0

Ah, great - you can hear Symphony No.2 there.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2020, 12:00:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2020, 05:43:29 AM
Yes, that's quite true, although other conductors (Previn for example) did include them - but at least it shows that they weren't included without Vaughan Williams's approval.

Interesting; I've only just programmed a playlist of Previn's recording (and enjoyed the fact that I could omit the superscriptions)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2020, 12:02:44 PM
Quote from: kyjo on June 20, 2020, 01:52:24 PM
Recently I've fell in love with A Road All Paved With Stars, which is a 27-minute "orchestral synthesis/symphonic rhapsody" created by Adrian Williams of key themes from RVW's opera The Poisoned Kiss (which I haven't heard). Purists may not like this, I suppose, and I'm not sure how much of it is "pure" RVW. But, quite frankly, I do not care! This is truly some glorious, heart-easing, tuneful, and characterful music which I urge you all to hear. It completely exceeded my expectations! It's included on this CD:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B01J2MF3TO.01.L.jpg)

https://youtu.be/FbLgH5YFb-s (https://youtu.be/FbLgH5YFb-s)

Periodically I find myself curious about The Poisoned Kiss.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 26, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
This is a very exciting new release of Barbirolli conducting VW's 6th Symphony at his 70th Birthday Concert in 1969 (sadly only a few months before his death). Barbirolli chose the programme (the VW + Elgar's 'Introduction and Allegro' + Beethoven's 7th Symphony). Barbirolli's performance of the VW has an authenticity from the start - he conducted the second ever performance after Boult's premiere and they were both close friends of the composer. I would say that the looming threat of the second movement (Moderato) is the greatest that I have ever heard. However, the 'big tune' at the end of the first movement is a bit too 'Ye Olde England' for my taste (Boult's slightly understated way is, paradoxically, much more affecting IMO). As with my original Decca Eclipse LP I had to turn the volume up for the last movement 'Epilogue' which was played too fast for my taste (Boult with the LPO is much better) and sounded rushed. Having said that it seemed to slow down (and get louder) as it progressed and I found the searching, moving and nihilistic ending to be as good as any.
This is strongly recommended to any VW fan, notwithstanding my reservations which you might not agree with anyway. I am delighted to have a recording of my favourite VW symphony (other than the one on Orfeo) by one of his finest interpreters:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 26, 2020, 11:15:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 26, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
This is a very exciting new release of Barbirolli conducting VW's 6th Symphony at his 70th Birthday Concert in 1969 (sadly only a few months before his death). Barbirolli chose the programme (the VW + Elgar's 'Introduction and Allegro' + Beethoven's 7th Symphony). Barbirolli's performance of the VW has an authenticity from the start - he conducted the second ever performance after Boult's premiere and they were both close friends of the composer. I would say that the looming threat of the second movement (Moderato) is the greatest that I have ever heard. However, the 'big tune' at the end of the first movement is a bit too 'Ye Olde England' for my taste (Boult's slightly understated way is, paradoxically, much more affecting IMO). As with my original Decca Eclipse LP I had to turn the volume up for the last movement 'Epilogue' which was played too fast for my taste (Boult with the LPO is much better) and sounded rushed. Having said that it seemed to slow down (and get louder) as it progressed and I found the searching, moving and nihilistic ending to be as good as any.
This is strongly recommended to any VW fan, notwithstanding my reservations which you might not agree with anyway. I am delighted to have a recording of my favourite VW symphony (other than the one on Orfeo) by one of his finest interpreters:
(//)
Nice!   :)  How did you find the sound quality of it to be Jeffrey?  And, I'm assuming that the Decca Eclipse LP was a regular studio recording?  And where was the performance held at?

Best,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 26, 2020, 01:42:36 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 26, 2020, 11:15:36 AM
Nice!   :)  How did you find the sound quality of it to be Jeffrey?  And, I'm assuming that the Decca Eclipse LP was a regular studio recording?  And where was the performance held at?

Best,

PD
PD
The sound quality was not a problem for me. Obviously it is more modern that the old Boult recordings from the late 1940s and early 1950s but not nearly as good as the recent batch of VW symphony cycles. It dates from 1969 around the time of Boult's second EMI recording but I don't think the ound is a good. It has a kind of 'period atmosphere' to,it which I rather like. I've only heard it once and intend to listen to it again probably tomorrow.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 26, 2020, 03:36:35 PM
Thanks Jeffrey.  By the way, where was it recorded?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 26, 2020, 03:42:03 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 26, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
This is a very exciting new release of Barbirolli conducting VW's 6th Symphony at his 70th Birthday Concert in 1969 (sadly only a few months before his death). Barbirolli chose the programme (the VW + Elgar's 'Introduction and Allegro' + Beethoven's 7th Symphony). Barbirolli's performance of the VW has an authenticity from the start - he conducted the second ever performance after Boult's premiere and they were both close friends of the composer. I would say that the looming threat of the second movement (Moderato) is the greatest that I have ever heard. However, the 'big tune' at the end of the first movement is a bit too 'Ye Olde England' for my taste (Boult's slightly understated way is, paradoxically, much more affecting IMO). As with my original Decca Eclipse LP I had to turn the volume up for the last movement 'Epilogue' which was played too fast for my taste (Boult with the LPO is much better) and sounded rushed. Having said that it seemed to slow down (and get louder) as it progressed and I found the searching, moving and nihilistic ending to be as good as any.
This is strongly recommended to any VW fan, notwithstanding my reservations which you might not agree with anyway. I am delighted to have a recording of my favourite VW symphony (other than the one on Orfeo) by one of his finest interpreters:
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=65382;image)

Interesting, Jeffrey. Thanks for the write-up. I'd say the 6th is one of the toughest to pull off well. The 1st and 3rd also don't exactly 'play themselves' either. The 3rd is especially difficult to get right because of so much of the music is subtle and requires a certain ear to guide the music along. Of course, the last movement of the 3rd crescendos, but most of this symphony is not easy to conduct I would imagine.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 26, 2020, 08:09:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 26, 2020, 03:42:03 PM
Interesting, Jeffrey. Thanks for the write-up. I'd say the 6th is one of the toughest to pull off well. The 1st and 3rd also don't exactly 'play themselves' either. The 3rd is especially difficult to get right because of so much of the music is subtle and requires a certain ear to guide the music along. Of course, the last movement of the 3rd crescendos, but most of this symphony is not easy to conduct I would imagine.
I agree John. The booklet notes point out that No.6 is difficult to get right. I think that there are very few entirely successful performances. Thinking about it last night, I agree that 'A Pastoral Symphony' is the other one that is difficult to get right (Previn and Elder are my favourites).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 26, 2020, 09:49:43 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 26, 2020, 03:36:35 PM
Thanks Jeffrey.  By the way, where was it recorded?

PD
Free Trade Hall, Manchester, 18th December 1969
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 27, 2020, 12:04:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 26, 2020, 09:49:43 PM
Free Trade Hall, Manchester, 18th December 1969

I received my copy yesterday but haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. I am encouraged by your review. As it is a live performance I am hoping the Finale will be audible, as it is in Barbirolli's Bavarian recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2020, 12:23:24 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 27, 2020, 12:04:05 AM
I received my copy yesterday but haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. I am encouraged by your review. As it is a live performance I am hoping the Finale will be audible, as it is in Barbirolli's Bavarian recording.
I really look forward to your opinion. The Epilogue is very quiet at the start, as in Boult's Decca recording, although it seemed to get louder as it progresses - but maybe that was in my imagination.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 18, 2020, 08:36:32 PM
I don't know why I didn't do this ages ago, as I am both a VW fan and an Aristophanes fan, but I recently borrowed the Mark Elder complete Wasps recording.
What a hoot, the modern English version that is performed on these disks is pretty good shortened version of the original (unless the Cambridge Greek performance was also shortened there must have been a lot more speech to music than in this performance).
What struck me most was the quality of the music (I'm surprised VW took so much effort over a production that probably only had a few performances, he would've been paid much for it if he was paid anything for it).
The music we're familiar with from the Overture shows itself to be absolutely breathtakingly plastic and able to be turned to every conceivable mood and purpose in the Chorus's numbers.
You would be right in thinking that the music doesn't have much to do with Greece, but VW does capture one nuance of the original extremely well in his use of the music, that big march, which shows that although Aristophanes views the chorus of old soldiers who served as jurors in show trials put on by the populist leader Cleon, as political pawns, he is still very concerned about the welfare of those soldiers, and respects how they have created the Athens that he knew, whilst at the same time being betrayed by those populist leaders. I found this very entertaining and moving production.
Onwards to Sir John in Love, which I haven't listen to for ages!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2020, 11:00:41 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 18, 2020, 08:36:32 PM
I don't know why I didn't do this ages ago, as I am both a VW fan and an Aristophanes fan, but I recently borrowed the Mark Elder complete Wasps recording.
What a hoot, the modern English version that is performed on these disks is pretty good shortened version of the original (unless the Cambridge Greek performance was also shortened there must have been a lot more speech to music than in this performance).
What struck me most was the quality of the music (I'm surprised VW took so much effort over a production that probably only had a few performances, he would've been paid much for it if he was paid anything for it).
The music we're familiar with from the Overture shows itself to be absolutely breathtakingly plastic and able to be turned to every conceivable mood and purpose in the Chorus's numbers.
You would be right in thinking that the music doesn't have much to do with Greece, but VW does capture one nuance of the original extremely well in his use of the music, that big march, which shows that although Aristophanes views the chorus of old soldiers who served as jurors in show trials put on by the populist leader Cleon, as political pawns, he is still very concerned about the welfare of those soldiers, and respects how they have created the Athens that he knew, whilst at the same time being betrayed by those populist leaders. I found this very entertaining and moving production.
Onwards to Sir John in Love, which I haven't listen to for ages!
Very interesting indeed. I've always been rather put off The Wasps by the Overture, which is one of my least favourite works by VW, although I seem to have hundreds of recording of it coupled with works that I prefer. I do, however, recall an interesting LP where the Suite, rather than just the Overture, was coupled with the Double Piano Concerto on LP. I shall look out for the Elder CD. However 'Sir John in Love' might be going too far for me!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 19, 2020, 12:37:30 AM
Just rereading the booklet to Sir John in Love now. I'm reminded by it that VW wrote SJiL, Riders to the Sea and the Poisoned Kiss all within a few years of each other! What a (prolific) genius.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2020, 12:45:08 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 19, 2020, 12:37:30 AM
Just rereading the booklet to Sir John in Love now. I'm reminded by it that VW wrote SJiL, Riders to the Sea and the Poisoned Kiss all within a few years of each other! What a (prolific) genius.
Riders to the Sea is one of the few operas that I enjoy and I was fortunate enough to see a semi-staged performance of it in London a few years ago. I find it to be a moving and memorable work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 19, 2020, 05:05:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2020, 12:45:08 AM
Riders to the Sea is one of the few operas that I enjoy and I was fortunate enough to see a semi-staged performance of it in London a few years ago. I find it to be a moving and memorable work.

I love it too.  A very desolate piece which reeks of isolation.  Also a nice companion to Flos Campi which I think was also my CD.  What do you think of Pilgrims Progress?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2020, 05:25:42 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 19, 2020, 05:05:03 AM
I love it too.  A very desolate piece which reeks of isolation.  Also a nice companion to Flos Campi which I think was also my CD.  What do you think of Pilgrims Progress?
Possibly VW's greatest work. Seeing it on stage was an incredible experience.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on July 20, 2020, 08:37:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 18, 2020, 11:00:41 PM
Very interesting indeed. I've always been rather put off The Wasps by the Overture, which is one of my least favourite works by VW, although I seem to have hundreds of recording of it coupled with works that I prefer. I do, however, recall an interesting LP where the Suite, rather than just the Overture, was coupled with the Double Piano Concerto on LP. I shall look out for the Elder CD. However 'Sir John in Love' might be going too far for me!

I have that LP Jeffrey, Sir Adrian with LPO. I have no idea where "Aristophanic" Suite comes from. You mention the coupling, a good friend talks of the PC in glowing terms, especially the Romanza. I have not seen RVW as a concerto composer but giving the PC a go. It does complicate matters slightly that there is a version for one and two pianos.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 20, 2020, 09:08:58 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 20, 2020, 08:37:02 AM
I have that LP Jeffrey, Sir Adrian with LPO. I have no idea where "Aristophanic" Suite comes from. You mention the coupling, a good friend talks of the PC in glowing terms, especially the Romanza. I have not seen RVW as a concerto composer but giving the PC a go. It does complicate matters slightly that there is a version for one and two pianos.
Here's the LP Lol. I really like the two piano version, especially in this recording:

Although I bought the Boult EMI LP boxed set when I was still at school it didn't include the Piano Concerto so I took the lower one out of the record library. I much prefer the coupling and that great cover image:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on July 21, 2020, 07:33:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 20, 2020, 09:08:58 AM
Here's the LP Lol. I really like the two piano version, especially in this recording:

Although I bought the Boult EMI LP boxed set when I was still at school it didn't include the Piano Concerto so I took the lower one out of the record library. I much prefer the coupling and that great cover image:
(//)

Again you are hitting my wallet, Jeffrey! Inexplicably I have the Boult 8th on Decca (stereo) but not the later EMI, not sure how I have missed that. I have three recordings of the PC, two on LP and one CD. I have listened to the Piers Lane/Handley CD a couple of times and feel something is missing (possibly recording), in fact preferring the Delius PC. I did not think the other coupling of Finzi's Eclogue is particularly inspired either. I plan to give Howard Shelly a spin this evening.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 21, 2020, 09:40:53 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 21, 2020, 07:33:07 AM
Again you are hitting my wallet, Jeffrey! Inexplicably I have the Boult 8th on Decca (stereo) but not the later EMI, not sure how I have missed that. I have three recordings of the PC, two on LP and one CD. I have listened to the Piers Lane/Handley CD a couple of times and feel something is missing (possibly recording), in fact preferring the Delius PC. I did not think the other coupling of Finzi's Eclogue is particularly inspired either. I plan to give Howard Shelly a spin this evening.
Will be curious as to how you like the Lyrita one Irons.  I have it, but it's on CD.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2020, 09:57:31 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 21, 2020, 07:33:07 AM
Again you are hitting my wallet, Jeffrey! Inexplicably I have the Boult 8th on Decca (stereo) but not the later EMI, not sure how I have missed that. I have three recordings of the PC, two on LP and one CD. I have listened to the Piers Lane/Handley CD a couple of times and feel something is missing (possibly recording), in fact preferring the Delius PC. I did not think the other coupling of Finzi's Eclogue is particularly inspired either. I plan to give Howard Shelly a spin this evening.
I have the Foulds on CD and LP. The LP of the Dynamic Triptych is the one that I played to my wife when we were going out and that she was singularly unimpressed with (a sign of things to come  ::)) commenting, sarcastically, 'Well, it certainly is very dynamic!' The Boult Decca version of Symphony No.8 was the only one recorded in stereo (No.9 wasn't recorded by Decca) - the last in the series of symphonies 1-8.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on July 21, 2020, 02:43:43 PM
I've been listening to the RVW Piano Concerto lately; it's awesome. One of my favorites of his. Reminds me a bit of Ravel's two concertos for piano. I have the Lane/Handley/Liverpool recording. I suspect it may not be the best choice out there, but it's perfectly fine I think. I just don't like the couplings as much (Delius and Finzi).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 21, 2020, 02:52:03 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 21, 2020, 02:43:43 PM
I've been listening to the RVW Piano Concerto lately; it's awesome. One of my favorites of his. Reminds me a bit of Ravel's two concertos for piano. I have the Lane/Handley/Liverpool recording. I suspect it may not be the best choice out there, but it's perfectly fine I think. I just don't like the couplings as much (Delius and Finzi).

I prefer the version for two pianos, which, if you haven't heard it, you should definitely check it out. The Boult recording with Vronsky and Babin is my favorite performance of the work. There was another very fine performance on Virgin classics with Menuhin and Markham/Broadway. You can't go wrong with either of these performances. I liked the version for one piano, but once I heard the one for two pianos, I never really had any desire of going back.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on July 21, 2020, 03:01:26 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 21, 2020, 02:52:03 PM
I prefer the version for two pianos, which, if you haven't heard it, you should definitely check it out. The Boult recording with Vronsky and Babin is my favorite performance of the work. There was another very fine performance on Virgin classics with Menuhin and Markham/Broadway. You can't go wrong with either of these performances. I liked the version for one piano, but once I heard the one for two pianos, I never really had any desire of going back.

Coupled with Job, another work I've been meaning to pick up. Nice. I will have to check that recording out.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 21, 2020, 03:16:11 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 21, 2020, 03:01:26 PM
Coupled with Job, another work I've been meaning to pick up. Nice. I will have to check that recording out.

Score! Will be interested to know what you think of Job and the Concerto for Two Pianos.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2020, 11:13:54 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 21, 2020, 03:01:26 PM
Coupled with Job, another work I've been meaning to pick up. Nice. I will have to check that recording out.
Totally agree with John/MI on this one. The Boult/Vronsky/Babin version of the Concerto for Two Pianos is the one to have in my opinion. Also the CD with the PC coupled with Boult's final recording of 'Job' means, IMO, that you get the best recordings of both works. Boult recorded the work ('Job') four times as it is dedicated to him plus there is a live recording from the VW Centenary Concert in 1972, attended by my 17 year old self. I agree that the PC is one of VW's finest work and incredibly underrated. I like the version of the Piano Concerto on Naxos as well.
I discovered the PC originally from this great LP:
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on July 23, 2020, 03:55:19 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 21, 2020, 09:40:53 AM
Will be curious as to how you like the Lyrita one Irons.  I have it, but it's on CD.

PD

More by accident then design I have carried out a mini-survey of the piano(s) concerto. Goes without saying my views are purely subjective and not commenting on the musical merits or otherwise of each performance. I was not engaged with the Piers Lane as much as I should be and think this may be down to the recording which is slightly opaque. "Job" from the same source is outstanding in this regard - you never can tell. With Handley again, but this time Howard Shelley as soloist, the Lyrita recording is dynamic which gives the performance more edge, this concerto is inherently dynamic and requires a recording to match. I am struck by the influence of Ravel in the slow movement played by Shelley. I agree with vers la Flamme with regard to the Cadenza in the finale which is a highlight of this concerto.
Moving over to two pianos I was immediately struck how right this version. I usually hold first is best, but not in this case. Why this should be so I have no idea but Boult, Joseph Cooper and others who advised RVW certainty imparted good advice recognising the effect of two pianos in this work. A quite rare event in musical history doubling up in this way and fascinating how it came about.   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 23, 2020, 04:55:25 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 23, 2020, 03:55:19 AM
More by accident then design I have carried out a mini-survey of the piano(s) concerto. Goes without saying my views are purely subjective and not commenting on the musical merits or otherwise of each performance. I was not engaged with the Piers Lane as much as I should be and think this may be down to the recording which is slightly opaque. "Job" from the same source is outstanding in this regard - you never can tell. With Handley again, but this time Howard Shelley as soloist, the Lyrita recording is dynamic which gives the performance more edge, this concerto is inherently dynamic and requires a recording to match. I am struck by the influence of Ravel in the slow movement played by Shelley. I agree with vers la Flamme with regard to the Cadenza in the finale which is a highlight of this concerto.
Moving over to two pianos I was immediately struck how right this version. I usually hold first is best, but not in this case. Why this should be so I have no idea but Boult, Joseph Cooper and others who advised RVW certainty imparted good advice recognising the effect of two pianos in this work. A quite rare event in musical history doubling up in this way and fascinating how it came about.
Thank you for your thoughts Irons!  :)  I'll try and find a copy of the two-pianos version.

Best,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 23, 2020, 05:22:51 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 23, 2020, 04:55:25 AM
Thank you for your thoughts Irons!  :)  I'll try and find a copy of the two-pianos version.

Best,

PD

I've done some high-level international research on your behalf PD (by checking the Amazon.com site  ;D) and can confirm that you can pick up a second-hand copy of the Vronsky/Babin/Boult performance of the Concerto for Two Pianos for under $6.00. Furthermore it's coupled with one of the greatest performances of 'Job' (LSO with the dedicatee, Boult). Why does Amazon.com just have a 'Music' section while Amazon UK has both a 'CD' and 'Classical Music' option?
https://www.amazon.com/Job-Concerto-Two-Pianos-Orchestra/dp/B00002DDY9/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Vaughan+Williams+concerto+for+two+pianos&qid=1595510103&s=music&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 23, 2020, 11:36:44 AM
Thank you Jeffrey.  That was awfully sweet of you to do so!   :)

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 23, 2020, 12:10:50 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 23, 2020, 05:22:51 AM
I've done some high-level international research on your behalf PD (by checking the Amazon.com site  ;D) and can confirm that you can pick up a second-hand copy of the Vronsky/Babin/Boult performance of the Concerto for Two Pianos for under $6.00. Furthermore it's coupled with one of the greatest performances of 'Job' (LSO with the dedicatee, Boult). Why does Amazon.com just have a 'Music' section while Amazon UK has both a 'CD' and 'Classical Music' option?
https://www.amazon.com/Job-Concerto-Two-Pianos-Orchestra/dp/B00002DDY9/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Vaughan+Williams+concerto+for+two+pianos&qid=1595510103&s=music&sr=1-1

Amazon US's site is atrocious and, furthermore, so it their listings for CDs and LPs. Like, for example, you have multiple listings for the same recording or when you go to one of their listings the reviews for the item are for the wrong recording. ::) Then there are all the dead links or wrong links. It's one colossal mess. How I've been able to navigate their site since 1998 is beyond me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 23, 2020, 11:32:16 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 23, 2020, 11:36:44 AM
Thank you Jeffrey.  That was awfully sweet of you to do so!   :)

Best wishes,

PD
Not at all PD! It was my pleasure  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 29, 2020, 09:21:50 PM
Here's a review of the newly released CD of Barbirolli conducting Symphony No.6 at Barbirolli's 70th birthday concert. I agree with the review and especially the comparison with Barbirolli's Orfeo recording of the same work with the Bavarian RSO. I too prefer the Hallé version overall but the slower pace of the Bavarian orchestra in the finale/epilogue works better. My overall favourite version is Boult with the LPO on Decca and in comparison with that the Hallé version sounds rushed. David Hurwitz likes the Abravanel/Utah recording on Vanguard and I totally agree with him that it's a great disc.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Jul/Barbirolli_70th_SJB1098.htm
[/img]
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Here is Mr Hurwitz's interesting video in praise of Maurice Abravanel. His discussion of the VW disc is about half way through:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fTTWHBcWn2E
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 31, 2020, 05:13:56 AM
From WAYLTN thread.
Vaughan Williams: Violin Sonata
Good to have another recording of one of my very favourite chamber works and not just by Vaughan Williams.
However, I have to say that I'm slightly disappointed by the performance which felt rushed and unreflective at the start and then too slow. Maybe I have been spoilt by my familiarity (since LP days - it may have been the first chamber music that I ever bought) of the unmatched IMO performance by the Music Group of London. I may warm to this recording on further plays (it only arrived today) and others may enjoy it more:
Edit: listening to it on my better sound system I realise that the violin is very spotlighted and the piano quite recessed and the recording doesn't have much depth to it. Others may well respond differently so don't be put off.

EDIT: Full marks, however, for the beautifully played and movingly intimate version of 'The Lark Ascending' for Violin and Piano - the highlight of the disc for me.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 31, 2020, 08:07:44 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 31, 2020, 05:13:56 AM
From WAYLTN thread.
Vaughan Williams: Violin Sonata
Good to have another recording of one of my very favourite chamber works and not just by Vaughan Williams.
However, I have to say that I'm slightly disappointed by the performance which felt rushed and unreflective at the start and then too slow. Maybe I have been spoilt by my familiarity (since LP days - it may have been the first chamber music that I ever bought) of the unmatched IMO performance by the Music Group of London. I may warm to this recording on further plays (it only arrived today) and others may enjoy it more:
Edit: listening to it on my better sound system I realise that the violin is very spotlighted and the piano quite recessed and the recording doesn't have much depth to it. Others may well respond differently so don't be put off.

EDIT: Full marks, however, for the beautifully played and movingly intimate version of 'The Lark Ascending' for Violin and Piano - the highlight of the disc for me.




Have you heard Lydia Mordkovitch's collection of VW's piano & violin music?  Quite an impressive performance and interesting to have one's pre-conceptions challenged.  It includes the Sonata and 'Lark', but also the 6 Studies, a transcription of the Greensleeves Fantasia and the quite rare "2 Pieces" (Romance & Pastorale) But I like you, have trouble forgetting Hugh Bean!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Y8ir08yCL._AC_UY218_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 31, 2020, 08:18:53 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 31, 2020, 08:07:44 AM
Have you heard Lydia Mordkovitch's collection of VW's piano & violin music?  Quite an impressive performance and interesting to have one's pre-conceptions challenged.  It includes the Sonata and 'Lark', but also the 6 Studies, a transcription of the Greensleeves Fantasia and the quite rare "2 Pieces" (Romance & Pastorale) But I like you, have trouble forgetting Hugh Bean!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Y8ir08yCL._AC_UY218_.jpg)

It rings a bell but I certainly didn't buy it through Amazon. It looks like a fine CD and I think very highly of her playing. I did enjoy this CD which features the Violin Sonata:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 31, 2020, 08:52:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 31, 2020, 05:13:56 AM
From WAYLTN thread.
Vaughan Williams: Violin Sonata
Good to have another recording of one of my very favourite chamber works and not just by Vaughan Williams.
However, I have to say that I'm slightly disappointed by the performance which felt rushed and unreflective at the start and then too slow. Maybe I have been spoilt by my familiarity (since LP days - it may have been the first chamber music that I ever bought) of the unmatched IMO performance by the Music Group of London. I may warm to this recording on further plays (it only arrived today) and others may enjoy it more:
Edit: listening to it on my better sound system I realise that the violin is very spotlighted and the piano quite recessed and the recording doesn't have much depth to it. Others may well respond differently so don't be put off.

EDIT: Full marks, however, for the beautifully played and movingly intimate version of 'The Lark Ascending' for Violin and Piano - the highlight of the disc for me.
(//)
Interesting, I hadn't realized that there was a version of for violin and piano of the Lark.  Has it been recorded much?  I see that I do have the Hugh Bean version in my big EMI boxed VW set; however, for me growing up, it was the one with Iona Brown that I first listened to and loved.  Will have to check out the HB recording.  Do you gents like the IB with Sir Neville Marriner and TAOSMITF?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 31, 2020, 10:35:03 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 31, 2020, 08:52:57 AM
Interesting, I hadn't realized that there was a version of for violin and piano of the Lark.  Has it been recorded much?  I see that I do have the Hugh Bean version in my big EMI boxed VW set; however, for me growing up, it was the one with Iona Brown that I first listened to and loved.  Will have to check out the HB recording.  Do you gents like the IB with Sir Neville Marriner and TAOSMITF?

PD

Yes for sure Iona Brown's recording is excellent - I can picture the LP cover very clearly - I think it was the first version I bought as an ARGO record (great recordings all).   The Hugh Bean came originally as the coupling of Boult's Symphony No.6 - but I'd bought the Previn set so didn't encounter the Bean until it appeared on a different compilation.  For me he just shades Brown.....

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/jFIAAOSw1tVfAhwj/s-l640.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 31, 2020, 10:52:10 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 31, 2020, 10:35:03 AM
Yes for sure Iona Brown's recording is excellent - I can picture the LP cover very clearly - I think it was the first version I bought as an ARGO record (great recordings all).   The Hugh Bean came originally as the coupling of Boult's Symphony No.6 - but I'd bought the Previn set so didn't encounter the Bean until it appeared on a different compilation.  For me he just shades Brown.....

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/jFIAAOSw1tVfAhwj/s-l640.jpg)
Nice to hear your background and thoughts on it RS.

I'd LOVE to get ahold of a nice LP copy of the Argo.   :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 31, 2020, 11:46:30 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 31, 2020, 08:52:57 AM
Interesting, I hadn't realized that there was a version of for violin and piano of the Lark.  Has it been recorded much?  I see that I do have the Hugh Bean version in my big EMI boxed VW set; however, for me growing up, it was the one with Iona Brown that I first listened to and loved.  Will have to check out the HB recording.  Do you gents like the IB with Sir Neville Marriner and TAOSMITF?

PD

Now that I've worked out what 'IB' and 'TAOSMITF' mean (I thought the latter had a connection with Taoist philosophy  8)) I can answer your question. That was never my favourite recording of TLA ( :P) I preferred the one with Hugh Bean and Boult conducting. The Violin and Piano version of TLA have been recorded before but the new version is both beautifully played and recorded.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 31, 2020, 12:28:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 31, 2020, 11:46:30 AM
Now that I've worked out what 'IB' and 'TAOSMITF' mean (I thought the latter had a connection with Taoist philosophy  8)) I can answer your question. That was never my favourite recording of TLA ( :P) I preferred the one with Hugh Bean and Boult conducting. The Violin and Piano version of TLA have been recorded before but the new version is both beautifully played and recorded.
heeheeheeheee [I think that you can figure out what that means Jeffrey?  :)  :-*].  I think that I'll leave the HB/B/symphony's name? LSO or??? for Sunday afternoon to listen to.  And, in the meantime, I'll see whether or not I can find on YT an upload of the version for v&p.   ;D

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 31, 2020, 12:39:27 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 31, 2020, 12:28:06 PM
heeheeheeheee [I think that you can figure out what that means Jeffrey?  :)  :-*].  I think that I'll leave the HB/B/symphony's name? LSO or??? for Sunday afternoon to listen to.  And, in the meantime, I'll see whether or not I can find on YT an upload of the version for v&p.   ;D

Best wishes,

PD

Here's a V and P only version (as originally conceived) of TLA PD:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lark+ascending+violin+and+piano&&view=detail&mid=89EB07C8561489AB16AE89EB07C8561489AB16AE&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dlark%2Bascending%2Bviolin%2Band%2Bpiano%26FORM%3DHDRSC4
Good to see Emma Peel in the front row.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 31, 2020, 12:42:32 PM
TY, J!   ;)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 31, 2020, 12:43:38 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 31, 2020, 12:42:32 PM
TY, J!   ;)

PD

MP PD
;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2020, 01:57:08 AM
Nice to see a VW symphony on BIS. Well reviewed too:
(//)
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Aug/VW_sy5_BIS2367.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 06, 2020, 02:10:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 06, 2020, 01:57:08 AM
Nice to see a VW symphony on BIS. Well reviewed too:
(//)
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Aug/VW_sy5_BIS2367.htm

Very tempting and refreshing to see an imaginative coupling
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2020, 02:44:37 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 06, 2020, 02:10:11 AM
Very tempting and refreshing to see an imaginative coupling
Yes, I agree
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 11, 2020, 06:46:48 AM
Well, I greatly enjoyed this performance of the 5th Symphony, the ending of which is the most beautiful that I have heard on disc. It is a reflective, beautifully recorded performance with a marvellous Finzi coupling, which is a perfect accompaniment to the VW symphony. Having said that I do not think that this version of the symphony jumps straight to my No.1 choice and there were times when I found the two central movements a little ponderous and I found my attention wandering. I prefer my VW Symphony No.5 to be a bit more urgent and 'Sibelian' (after all it is dedicated to Sibelius) and prefer the performances by Koussevitsky, VW himself, Previn, Thomson and Barbirolli (EMI). Still, don't be put off - this is a fine disc which I shall be playing again soon:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 26, 2020, 03:20:49 AM
Copied from the WAYLTN thread:
Now playing. Vaughan Williams: Heroic Elegy and Triumphal Epilogue (1901-2). Possibly my favourite (along with the Piano Quintet) of his early, unpublished works. I find it memorable and, in places, moving with odd flashes of Vaughan Williams's mature style. It sounds a bit like the music of VW's teachers Parry and Stanford but I see that as a plus:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 26, 2020, 03:45:15 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 26, 2020, 03:20:49 AM
Copied from the WAYLTN thread:
Now playing. Vaughan Williams: Heroic Elegy and Triumphal Epilogue (1901-2). Possibly my favourite (along with the Piano Quintet) of his early, unpublished works. I find it memorable and, in places, moving with odd flashes of Vaughan Williams's mature style. It sounds a bit like the music of VW's teachers Parry and Stanford but I see that as a plus:
(//)

Your posting prompted me to listen to the same recording of the RVW piece. I haven't listened to it for an age - for me there is a definite hint of Wagner.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 26, 2020, 01:41:29 PM
Quote from: Biffo on August 26, 2020, 03:45:15 AM
Your posting prompted me to listen to the same recording of the RVW piece. I haven't listened to it for an age - for me there is a definite hint of Wagner.
Yes, I agree Biffo. Do you enjoy the work? I played it through three times today with much pleasure. It is a nice CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 27, 2020, 02:58:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 26, 2020, 01:41:29 PM
Yes, I agree Biffo. Do you enjoy the work? I played it through three times today with much pleasure. It is a nice CD.

I enjoyed the work but I have to admit I don't listen to it very often - I bought it more out of curiosity than anything. Listening to it 'blind' I don't think I would have recognised it as RVW.

Next up The Children of Lir (Thomson/Ulster) - another work I haven't listened to for ages
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 27, 2020, 04:49:28 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 27, 2020, 02:58:59 AM
I enjoyed the work but I have to admit I don't listen to it very often - I bought it more out of curiosity than anything. Listening to it 'blind' I don't think I would have recognised it as RVW.

Next up The Children of Lir (Thomson/Ulster) - another work I haven't listened to for ages

Harty's greatest work I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 27, 2020, 08:32:18 AM
This October release (in the UK) is now on offer on the Presto website:
(//)
I just sampled the extracts of the symphony on their website and I thought that it sounds a wonderful performance, especially the Passacaglia.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on September 09, 2020, 11:40:37 PM
Browsing in a charity shop yesterday I came across a Philips RVW CD with Marriner. An attractive line-up but don't really need another Fantasia, one work stuck out like a sore thumb Variations for Orchestra. A new one on me and reading the notes it is roughly contemporaneous of the 9th Symphony so not an obscure piece. The liner notes inform originally composed for Brass Band and orchestrated by Gordon Jacob. I'm looking forward to hearing the work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 10, 2020, 07:51:56 AM
Quote from: Irons on September 09, 2020, 11:40:37 PM
Browsing in a charity shop yesterday I came across a Philips RVW CD with Marriner. An attractive line-up but don't really need another Fantasia, one work stuck out like a sore thumb Variations for Orchestra. A new one on me and reading the notes it is roughly contemporaneous of the 9th Symphony so not an obscure piece. The liner notes inform originally composed for Brass Band and orchestrated by Gordon Jacob. I'm looking forward to hearing the work.

The Brass band original is the filler to Brabbins' London Symphony and the Jacob orchestration was a filler on Douglas Bostock's underwhelming Job.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 10, 2020, 07:59:17 AM
Quote from: Irons on September 09, 2020, 11:40:37 PM
Browsing in a charity shop yesterday I came across a Philips RVW CD with Marriner. An attractive line-up but don't really need another Fantasia, one work stuck out like a sore thumb Variations for Orchestra. A new one on me and reading the notes it is roughly contemporaneous of the 9th Symphony so not an obscure piece. The liner notes inform originally composed for Brass Band and orchestrated by Gordon Jacob. I'm looking forward to hearing the work.
I've always liked the Variations for Orchestra in its different manifestations.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 10, 2020, 01:29:51 PM
I noticed that the Bryden Thomson box set of the complete symphonies features in the Chandos sale for £20. Seems like a good bargain:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 14, 2020, 01:52:57 PM
The Variations for Orchestra isn't a work I know well so I listened to both versions and I have to say the original brass band version is heaps better. It was composed as a test piece for a bb competition and as you go through you can see which instruments, combinations and textures are being tested and the whole work has a wonderful integrity and is well suited to bb. By contrast the orchestral version doesn't have the same point and although the work is in VW's "ripest style" as Tovey would say (comparable to the 9th Symphony) Jacobs makes it seem tame.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 14, 2020, 11:44:27 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 14, 2020, 01:52:57 PM
The Variations for Orchestra isn't a work I know well so I listened to both versions and I have to say the original brass band version is heaps better. It was composed as a test piece for a bb competition and as you go through you can see which instruments, combinations and textures are being tested and the whole work has a wonderful integrity and is well suited to bb. By contrast the orchestral version doesn't have the same point and although the work is in VW's "ripest style" as Tovey would say (comparable to the 9th Symphony) Jacobs makes it seem tame.

I agree with you completely.  Gordon Jacob is a brilliant and sensitive orchestrator (his Elgar Organ Sonata is stunning) but the character of the Brass Band Variations comes through so much better in the original.  I would go further - this works needs to be played by a proper brass band and NOT an orchestral brass ensemble.  The difference in timbre between the two is so marked.  This galled me about the version used as the filler on the Brabbins/Hyperion/RVW 2 nominally played by the "RCM Brass Band".  No such ensemble exists.  Compare the sound of that recording to the Black Dyke Mills or The Williams Fairey band recordings on Chandos.  The proverbial chalk and cheese

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/817Yogo5gML._AC_UY218_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51IKgX3brzL._AC_UL320_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91IkBMuHeZL._AC_UY218_.jpg)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 15, 2020, 06:56:02 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 14, 2020, 11:44:27 PM
I agree with you completely.  Gordon Jacob is a brilliant and sensitive orchestrator (his Elgar Organ Sonata is stunning) but the character of the Brass Band Variations comes through so much better in the original.  I would go further - this works needs to be played by a proper brass band and NOT an orchestral brass ensemble.  The difference in timbre between the two is so marked.  This galled me about the version used as the filler on the Brabbins/Hyperion/RVW 2 nominally played by the "RCM Brass Band".  No such ensemble exists.  Compare the sound of that recording to the Black Dyke Mills or The Williams Fairey band recordings on Chandos.  The proverbial chalk and cheese

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/817Yogo5gML._AC_UY218_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51IKgX3brzL._AC_UL320_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91IkBMuHeZL._AC_UY218_.jpg)

Interesting RS. I have Vol 2 of the Chandos CD and thoroughly enjoyed the Henry V Overture by Vaughan Williams. Anyway, following your recommendation, I have now ordered Volume 1 at a give-away price second-hand.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 15, 2020, 07:12:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 15, 2020, 06:56:02 AM
Interesting RS. I have Vol 2 of the Chandos CD and thoroughly enjoyed the Henry V Overture by Vaughan Williams. Anyway, following your recommendation, I have now ordered Volume 1 at a give-away price second-hand.

Please do report back when you've had a chance to listen to it.  I got riled out of all proportion(!) by the RCM "Brass Band" version and more by the fact that no reviews bothered to pick up on the fact that they were patently not a brass band!  The rest of the "Brass Masters" disc is excellent in any case.  Cyril Jenkins' "Life Divine" makes for an epic/almost cinematic opening and the Robert Simpson "Energy" is a fascinating and unusual work by him.  And you even get a good Severn Suite thrown in!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 15, 2020, 08:29:16 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 15, 2020, 07:12:50 AM
Please do report back when you've had a chance to listen to it.  I got riled out of all proportion(!) by the RCM "Brass Band" version and more by the fact that no reviews bothered to pick up on the fact that they were patently not a brass band!  The rest of the "Brass Masters" disc is excellent in any case.  Cyril Jenkins' "Life Divine" makes for an epic/almost cinematic opening and the Robert Simpson "Energy" is a fascinating and unusual work by him.  And you even get a good Severn Suite thrown in!
Excellent! Will do RS. I was curious about the Cyril Jenkins work. I've never heard of him. I enjoyed Vol. 2 more than expected, especially that VW Henry V work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 15, 2020, 08:40:39 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 14, 2020, 01:52:57 PM
The Variations for Orchestra isn't a work I know well so I listened to both versions and I have to say the original brass band version is heaps better. It was composed as a test piece for a bb competition and as you go through you can see which instruments, combinations and textures are being tested and the whole work has a wonderful integrity and is well suited to bb. By contrast the orchestral version doesn't have the same point and although the work is in VW's "ripest style" as Tovey would say (comparable to the 9th Symphony) Jacobs makes it seem tame.
Exactly my feeling too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 23, 2020, 10:31:52 PM
Nice review (another one) of the new BIS CD with its unusual but appropriate coupling:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Sep/VW-sy5-BIS2367.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on September 24, 2020, 01:32:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 23, 2020, 10:31:52 PM
Nice review (another one) of the new BIS CD with its unusual but appropriate coupling:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Sep/VW-sy5-BIS2367.htm

Thanks for the link. I have already bought the album but it is nice to see a good review.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 24, 2020, 06:10:17 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 24, 2020, 01:32:51 AM
Thanks for the link. I have already bought the album but it is nice to see a good review.
Yes, it's reassuring!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on September 28, 2020, 03:59:45 AM
This one looks intriguing!

The Future

https://rvwsociety.com/news/
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on September 28, 2020, 05:06:43 AM
Quote from: Oates on September 28, 2020, 03:59:45 AM
This one looks intriguing!

The Future

https://rvwsociety.com/news/

Wow, I hope that gets a recording!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on September 28, 2020, 05:32:17 AM
I meant to add that Jonathan Pearson has just uploaded a complete RVW discography to the RVW Society website - can be downloaded here:

https://rvwsociety.com/discography/

The list gives details of 2,564 separate recordings of Vaughan Williams music. An epic work of scholarship! 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 06:27:12 AM
Thanks for telling us about that discography.  Wow, what a labor of love!

Must admit, I have mixed feelings about 'lost works' being completed by others.  One wonders sometimes, whether or not the composer just lost interest in them....maybe not feeling very good about them or having issues with certain parts and not feeling like they have the solution, etc.   I think in part it also has to do with how far along in the composing of the work it is too.  This is probably a topic for a whole different thread, but in terms of Vaughan Williams, what do others think here?  There's also a different aspect of recording early works which the composer never was keen on and/or had seldom been performed during his lifetime.

There's the flip side of being enamored with a composer's works and feeling like you want to hear every bit from 'scribbles' to early works, unfinished ones, etc.

Thoughts folks?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 28, 2020, 07:32:03 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 06:27:12 AM
Thanks for telling us about that discography.  Wow, what a labor of love!

Must admit, I have mixed feelings about 'lost works' being completed by others.  One wonders sometimes, whether or not the composer just lost interest in them....maybe not feeling very good about them or having issues with certain parts and not feeling like they have the solution, etc.   I think in part it also has to do with how far along in the composing of the work it is too.  This is probably a topic for a whole different thread, but in terms of Vaughan Williams, what do others think here?  There's also a different aspect of recording early works which the composer never was keen on and/or had seldom been performed during his lifetime.

There's the flip side of being enamored with a composer's works and feeling like you want to hear every bit from 'scribbles' to early works, unfinished ones, etc.

Thoughts folks?

PD

I have a self-serving hypocritical point of view regarding completions etc.  If I like the resulting piece - its an excellent idea and well worth doing, if I don't its a travesty and the unfinished/incomplete piece should be left in peace(!)

Of course - that's a slightly facetious simplification.....  where there are extensive sketches/writings about a work and we know that a composer was trying/expecting to complete it I think a conjectural completion by a sympathetic composer is interesting on the understanding that it is only conjectural.  Where a composer has left a work incomplete/unfinished years before death or whatever, I suspect we should accept their decision to move on from that piece.  So its the completion or orchestrations of juvenalia that often leave me more questioning their worth.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 08:01:23 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 28, 2020, 07:32:03 AM
I have a self-serving hypocritical point of view regarding completions etc.  If I like the resulting piece - its an excellent idea and well worth doing, if I don't its a travesty and the unfinished/incomplete piece should be left in peace(!)
:laugh: Well put!  :) I understand the feeling!

Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 28, 2020, 07:32:03 AMOf course - that's a slightly facetious simplification.....  where there are extensive sketches/writings about a work and we know that a composer was trying/expecting to complete it I think a conjectural completion by a sympathetic composer is interesting on the understanding that it is only conjectural.  Where a composer has left a work incomplete/unfinished years before death or whatever, I suspect we should accept their decision to move on from that piece.  So its the completion or orchestrations of juvenalia that often leave me more questioning their worth.
Agreed.  Do I really want to hear something that they wrote aged 10?  Or possibly some of their first efforts from their composition classes.....ummm?  :-\

Which of Vaughan Williams works that have been completed/reconstructed do you enjoy RS?

Best wishes,

PD

EDIT:  By the way, looking quickly at articles in the RVW journals, I ran across this one.  The title intrigued me.  Has anyone here read it?   It's from issue No. 53.  Ralph Vaughan Williams, Leos Janacek and Jean Sibelius – James Lyon
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on September 28, 2020, 08:42:04 AM
I tend to think of these kind of works in two ways.

Firstly, if the composer has deliberately kept something under wraps because they aren't satisfied with it or think it is under par, then you could argue that any revival is disrespecting those wishes, which is easy to do when they are dead. But sometimes, the composer's own instincts aren't always in accord with the listener. Some great works of art in many genres have been belittled or suppressed by their creators and time has proved them to be probably wrong.

Secondly, if someone finds a brilliant score by Vaughan Williams that just happens to be unfinished, and which the composer clearly intended to be heard but for whatever reason didn't manage to get around to finishing, can't we be treated to a performance or recording that just stops dead midstream at the end of manuscript? It may be aesthetically jarring but at least we know where we are! Is there a musical equivalent of the Mystery of Edwin Drood or Weir of Hermiston?   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 09:16:25 AM
Quote from: Oates on September 28, 2020, 08:42:04 AM
I tend to think of these kind of works in two ways.

Firstly, if the composer has deliberately kept something under wraps because they aren't satisfied with it or think it is under par, then you could argue that any revival is disrespecting those wishes, which is easy to do when they are dead. But sometimes, the composer's own instincts aren't always in accord with the listener. Some great works of art in many genres have been belittled or suppressed by their creators and time has proved them to be probably wrong.

Secondly, if someone finds a brilliant score by Vaughan Williams that just happens to be unfinished, and which the composer clearly intended to be heard but for whatever reason didn't manage to get around to finishing, can't we be treated to a performance or recording that just stops dead midstream at the end of manuscript? It may be aesthetically jarring but at least we know where we are! Is there a musical equivalent of the Mystery of Edwin Drood or Weir of Hermiston?   
Yes, some composers (from an outsider's view) can be too critical about their works and either tuck them away into a drawer or worse (toss/burn them).  Sometimes, they have been 'kept alive' by musicians or other folks.  If I'm recalling correctly, some of Janacek's piano works were discarded, but a pianist was able to hide away 2 out of 3 of the works or movements (one lost irretrievably) and Janacek later changed his mind.

I would (if properly orchestrated by the composer) love to hear a work that way....or at least, if someone is attempting to finish a work, I'd like to know at what point the composer stopped writing.

I wonder whether or not they will broadcast the performance live of "The Future"?  I'd be interested in hearing it.   :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on September 28, 2020, 10:16:55 AM
It would appear there is big splash being planned by the RVW Society for 2022 for the 150th birthday celebrations, which curiously enough is noted as "the last major anniversary before RVW goes out of copyright."

https://rvwsociety.com/rvw150/

I wonder if The Future is being held back for then.

It is an interesting comment about the copyright - I am right in thinking that this will mean performances and recordings will be more economically viable (or less expensive) to mount henceforth? Or will anyone who has access to RVW manuscripts be able to rework them without permission etc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 11:17:16 AM
Quote from: Oates on September 28, 2020, 10:16:55 AM
It would appear there is big splash being planned by the RVW Society for 2022 for the 150th birthday celebrations, which curiously enough is noted as "the last major anniversary before RVW goes out of copyright."

https://rvwsociety.com/rvw150/

I wonder if The Future is being held back for then.

It is an interesting comment about the copyright - I am right in thinking that this will mean performances and recordings will be more economically viable (or less expensive) to mount henceforth? Or will anyone who has access to RVW manuscripts be able to rework them without permission etc.
Good questions Oates.  I ran across this website (don't know how accurate it is).  I found it to be interesting anyway.  https://logosfoundation.org/copyleft/public_domain_composers.html  Wonder whether or not some of our online composers here could answer that?

Yes, it looks like 2028 is 70 years from date of death.  I wonder who gets his (Vaughan Williams') royalties?  Or if it varies?  He didn't have any children.  Did Ursula leave them to the RVW Society or???

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 28, 2020, 12:16:00 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 06:27:12 AM
Thanks for telling us about that discography.  Wow, what a labor of love!

Must admit, I have mixed feelings about 'lost works' being completed by others.  One wonders sometimes, whether or not the composer just lost interest in them....maybe not feeling very good about them or having issues with certain parts and not feeling like they have the solution, etc.   I think in part it also has to do with how far along in the composing of the work it is too.  This is probably a topic for a whole different thread, but in terms of Vaughan Williams, what do others think here?  There's also a different aspect of recording early works which the composer never was keen on and/or had seldom been performed during his lifetime.

There's the flip side of being enamored with a composer's works and feeling like you want to hear every bit from 'scribbles' to early works, unfinished ones, etc.

Thoughts folks?

PD
I think that completions of composers' work are worth trying and you just have to assess the results on their merits. But there are various categories where it's worth trying
1. Where the composer did complete a work and parts were lost, I believe that this is the case for the final fugue of Bach's Art of Fugue and the finale of Bruckner's Ninth.
2. Where the composer ran out of time but left enough indications of how to complete the work ie Holmboe's String Quartet no.21 completed by Nordgard, or Ivanovs Symphony No.21
A third category is where the composer couldn't solve a problem in composition but others can. I can't think of an example but one might have been Sibelius's Eighth. If this had survived as a MS or various alternative MSs which the composer had been unwilling to complete I'm sure there would have been versions published (BTW my theory as to why he couldn't publish the 8th was that it refused to return to the original key and Sibelius was too conservative to contemplate a symphony with progressive tonality).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 12:52:46 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 28, 2020, 12:16:00 PM
I think that completions of composers' work are worth trying and you just have to assess the results on their merits. But there are various categories where it's worth trying
1. Where the composer did complete a work and parts were lost, I believe that this is the case for the final fugue of Bach's Art of Fugue and the finale of Bruckner's Ninth.
2. Where the composer ran out of time but left enough indications of how to complete the work ie Holmboe's String Quartet no.21 completed by Nordgard, or Ivanovs Symphony No.21
A third category is where the composer couldn't solve a problem in composition but others can. I can't think of an example but one might have been Sibelius's Eighth. If this had survived as a MS or various alternative MSs which the composer had been unwilling to complete I'm sure there would have been versions published (BTW my theory as to why he couldn't publish the 8th was that it refused to return to the original key and Sibelius was too conservative to contemplate a symphony with progressive tonality).
Good point about when parts are lost.  Hopefully, there are remaining sketches, comments or notes?  Interesting thoughts about someone else solving 'existing' problems too.  :)  Anyway, I don't want to side-track this thread, but I have appreciated reading your thoughts and insights.

PD

p.s. Pretty bird!  Do you own one or just enjoy watching them in the wild?  Sorry side-tracking here!  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 29, 2020, 07:28:15 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 08:01:23 AM
:laugh: Well put!  :) I understand the feeling!
Agreed.  Do I really want to hear something that they wrote aged 10?  Or possibly some of their first efforts from their composition classes.....ummm?  :-\

Which of Vaughan Williams works that have been completed/reconstructed do you enjoy RS?

Best wishes,

PD

EDIT:  By the way, looking quickly at articles in the RVW journals, I ran across this one.  The title intrigued me.  Has anyone here read it?   It's from issue No. 53.  Ralph Vaughan Williams, Leos Janacek and Jean Sibelius – James Lyon

I think film score & Incidental Music reconstructions (not just by RVW - but the complete Scott of the Antarctic on Dutton is cracking) are very valid.  All too often excellent music cues get lost on the cutting room floor or the scores/parts have been mislaid so reconstruction is both valuable and important.  I like the early Vaughan Williams tone poems;  The Solent/Harnham Down & Burley Heath.  Not because they are vintage RVW but because they show how early on he was finding ways to break free of the Austro/German influences - even before he studied with Ravel.  The early chamber music is interesting too but more to signpost how far he would travel in finding a unique voice.  Recently the "Saraband - Helen" that was a coupling on Brabbins' Symphonies 3&4 got a lot of good press but I must admit again for me the interest was the signposts that work contains (to the Serenade in that case) rather than being something exceptional in its own right.

The earlier post about reconstructions being valid where a composer has run out of time I think is very true.  Personally I would include the Elgar 3 there which I love because there is a definite sense that Elgar would have completed this if he could even though he allegedly told Willy Reed that the symphony should not be completed under any circumstances.  Whereas the Moeran 2 I find to be a rather sad and pale imitation of a composer who had simply lost the capacity to compose in a coherent manner.  The result I find rather tragic....

the Bax early Symphony is certainly a work that should have stayed as a piano score - interesting for the scholar but frankly boring and overblown for anyone else.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 29, 2020, 08:05:11 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 28, 2020, 05:06:43 AM
Wow, I hope that gets a recording!

+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 29, 2020, 08:09:12 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 28, 2020, 06:27:12 AM
Thanks for telling us about that discography.  Wow, what a labor of love!

Must admit, I have mixed feelings about 'lost works' being completed by others.  One wonders sometimes, whether or not the composer just lost interest in them....maybe not feeling very good about them or having issues with certain parts and not feeling like they have the solution, etc.   I think in part it also has to do with how far along in the composing of the work it is too.  This is probably a topic for a whole different thread, but in terms of Vaughan Williams, what do others think here?  There's also a different aspect of recording early works which the composer never was keen on and/or had seldom been performed during his lifetime.

There's the flip side of being enamored with a composer's works and feeling like you want to hear every bit from 'scribbles' to early works, unfinished ones, etc.

Thoughts folks?

PD

Very much agree PD. There are some works worth reviving (Piano Quintet, Heroic Elegy and Triumphal Procession) but not all of them IMO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 29, 2020, 08:24:58 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 29, 2020, 07:28:15 AM
I think film score & Incidental Music reconstructions (not just by RVW - but the complete Scott of the Antarctic on Dutton is cracking) are very valid.  All too often excellent music cues get lost on the cutting room floor or the scores/parts have been mislaid so reconstruction is both valuable and important.  I like the early Vaughan Williams tone poems;  The Solent/Harnham Down & Burley Heath.  Not because they are vintage RVW but because they show how early on he was finding ways to break free of the Austro/German influences - even before he studied with Ravel.  The early chamber music is interesting too but more to signpost how far he would travel in finding a unique voice.  Recently the "Saraband - Helen" that was a coupling on Brabbins' Symphonies 3&4 got a lot of good press but I must admit again for me the interest was the signposts that work contains (to the Serenade in that case) rather than being something exceptional in its own right.

The earlier post about reconstructions being valid where a composer has run out of time I think is very true.  Personally I would include the Elgar 3 there which I love because there is a definite sense that Elgar would have completed this if he could even though he allegedly told Willy Reed that the symphony should not be completed under any circumstances.  Whereas the Moeran 2 I find to be a rather sad and pale imitation of a composer who had simply lost the capacity to compose in a coherent manner.  The result I find rather tragic....

the Bax early Symphony is certainly a work that should have stayed as a piano score - interesting for the scholar but frankly boring and overblown for anyone else.
I haven't heard the Dutton/Scott one before.  I'm only familiar with the recording on Chandos.  I remember liking some of the works on The Solent (will revisit that one soon).  Have heard the early chamber one on Hyperion...don't remember being particularly enamored by it (should revisit too).  Haven't heard the Saraband - Helen.  Perhaps I can find it online?  Or borrow it from a library?

Not familiar with the Moeran 2, but interesting to read your thoughts on it.  :)

Best,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 29, 2020, 08:29:49 AM
Totally agree with RS about the early Bax Symphony - buying it was a big regret. However, I did enjoy the Moeran 2nd Symphony. Elgar's 3rd Symphony was perhaps best of all.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on September 29, 2020, 04:32:49 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 29, 2020, 07:28:15 AM
I think film score & Incidental Music reconstructions (not just by RVW - but the complete Scott of the Antarctic on Dutton is cracking) are very valid.  All too often excellent music cues get lost on the cutting room floor or the scores/parts have been mislaid so reconstruction is both valuable and important.  I like the early Vaughan Williams tone poems;  The Solent/Harnham Down & Burley Heath.  Not because they are vintage RVW but because they show how early on he was finding ways to break free of the Austro/German influences - even before he studied with Ravel.  The early chamber music is interesting too but more to signpost how far he would travel in finding a unique voice.  Recently the "Saraband - Helen" that was a coupling on Brabbins' Symphonies 3&4 got a lot of good press but I must admit again for me the interest was the signposts that work contains (to the Serenade in that case) rather than being something exceptional in its own right.

The earlier post about reconstructions being valid where a composer has run out of time I think is very true.  Personally I would include the Elgar 3 there which I love because there is a definite sense that Elgar would have completed this if he could even though he allegedly told Willy Reed that the symphony should not be completed under any circumstances.  Whereas the Moeran 2 I find to be a rather sad and pale imitation of a composer who had simply lost the capacity to compose in a coherent manner.  The result I find rather tragic....

the Bax early Symphony is certainly a work that should have stayed as a piano score - interesting for the scholar but frankly boring and overblown for anyone else.

I disagree.  First, I've done some reconstructions of compositions that were "discovered" in the scraps of a composer after their death or perhaps just the score and parts were lost and all that existed were multiple fragments from which a complete performance can be recreated with reasonable certainty.  I also have done musicological analysis of composers where you need to review the composer's intentions and really place yourself inside their head.  You might not really know it but you benefit from this work.  Here is an example.  The magnum opus of a composer's output was a 65 minute oratorio for soloists, chorus, and large orchestra but no one including his widow knew of this work.  It existed in fragments and pieces.  I spent around a year of very deep and thorough work reconstructing it and consider it a fantastic discovery.  It was performed and recorded last year and hopefully will be released on Naxos (in negotiations).  This will result in this unknown composer being discovered and potentially further works being recorded.  My work is an example of multiple years of deep and through work and your evaluation is the result of a few minutes of listening.  You are entitled to your opinion but I have an opinion of your opinion which I too am entitled to.  I would also add when the composer is one of substantial impact or recognition as RVW is, every work has the right to be heard and judged within a context of the artists journey.  Yes, you might find it a bore but many might find your opinion a far greater bore because we understand the culmination of the artists achievements and how each and every utterance contributed to a better understanding of the whole.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 29, 2020, 11:46:54 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 29, 2020, 04:32:49 PM
I disagree.  First, I've done some reconstructions of compositions that were "discovered" in the scraps of a composer after their death or perhaps just the score and parts were lost and all that existed were multiple fragments from which a complete performance can be recreated with reasonable certainty.  I also have done musicological analysis of composers where you need to review the composer's intentions and really place yourself inside their head.  You might not really know it but you benefit from this work.  Here is an example.  The magnum opus of a composer's output was a 65 minute oratorio for soloists, chorus, and large orchestra but no one including his widow knew of this work.  It existed in fragments and pieces.  I spent around a year of very deep and thorough work reconstructing it and consider it a fantastic discovery.  It was performed and recorded last year and hopefully will be released on Naxos (in negotiations).  This will result in this unknown composer being discovered and potentially further works being recorded.  My work is an example of multiple years of deep and through work and your evaluation is the result of a few minutes of listening.  You are entitled to your opinion but I have an opinion of your opinion which I too am entitled to.  I would also add when the composer is one of substantial impact or recognition as RVW is, every work has the right to be heard and judged within a context of the artists journey.  Yes, you might find it a bore but many might find your opinion a far greater bore because we understand the culmination of the artists achievements and how each and every utterance contributed to a better understanding of the whole.

Goodness me - a slightly bristling response!  Of course anyone - performer/composer/reconstructor etc - who has spent a long time considering and working on a score has far deeper insights into that work than a listener can hope to achieve on a few hear-throughs. 

The project you describe sounds very exciting/worthwhile/valuable indeed and if this music does make it to disc exactly the kind of thing I would be delighted to hear.  But the kind of reconstructions I am talking about are most certainly NOT "the culmination of the artist[']s achievements".  These are NOT a Bruckner 9/Mahler 10/Elgar 3.  These are fragments/incomplete works most often put aside by the composers themselves.  As someone else mentioned, composers are not always right in what they discard, but quite often they are.  They have an interest for listeners along the lines of a path not followed perhaps and thereby filling out an appreciation of the composer's wider achievement but often they are not central to that appreciation. 

You mention RVW's works as "having the right to be heard..."  Consider what RVW himself wrote on the scores of some of these works expressly forbidding later performances [for example the early versions of the 2nd Symphony].  Of The Solent RVW wrote "luckily long-since scrapped" when referencing the use of themes from the early work in later scores.  Latterly, the RVW estate - more than any other I can think of - have chosen to allow publication and performance of his early/incomplete works.  As it happens as a lover of his music - I am always pleased to hear more RVW but very rarely do I think the discovered music of anything but peripheral interest....  Hope I haven't bored you
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 30, 2020, 01:09:15 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 29, 2020, 11:46:54 PM
Goodness me - a slightly bristling response!  Of course anyone - performer/composer/reconstructor etc - who has spent a long time considering and working on a score has far deeper insights into that work than a listener can hope to achieve on a few hear-throughs. 

The project you describe sounds very exciting/worthwhile/valuable indeed and if this music does make it to disc exactly the kind of thing I would be delighted to hear.  But the kind of reconstructions I am talking about are most certainly NOT "the culmination of the artist[']s achievements".  These are NOT a Bruckner 9/Mahler 10/Elgar 3.  These are fragments/incomplete works most often put aside by the composers themselves.  As someone else mentioned, composers are not always right in what they discard, but quite often they are.  They have an interest for listeners along the lines of a path not followed perhaps and thereby filling out an appreciation of the composer's wider achievement but often they are not central to that appreciation. 

You mention RVW's works as "having the right to be heard..."  Consider what RVW himself wrote on the scores of some of these works expressly forbidding later performances [for example the early versions of the 2nd Symphony].  Of The Solent RVW wrote "luckily long-since scrapped" when referencing the use of themes from the early work in later scores.  Latterly, the RVW estate - more than any other I can think of - have chosen to allow publication and performance of his early/incomplete works.  As it happens as a lover of his music - I am always pleased to hear more RVW but very rarely do I think the discovered music of anything but peripheral interest....  Hope I haven't bored you

Not intended for me I know, but I think that VW was quite wrong to prevent us from hearing the original 'London Symphony'. In particular I think that he cut out the best bit of the Symphony (just before the end) in his 1936 revision, at a time when, I suspect, he was in thrall to Sibelius. So, I'm v glad that Ursula VW did allow us to hear those earlier versions and I wish that VW had stuck at his 1920 revision. However, some of the other early VW scores (issued by Albion records for example) I could have done without ('A Cambridge Mass' for example) even though none of it was as bad (IMO) as that early Bax symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 30, 2020, 03:25:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 30, 2020, 01:09:15 AM
Not intended for me I know, but I think that VW was quite wrong to prevent us from hearing the original 'London Symphony'. In particular I think that he cut out the best bit of the Symphony (just before the end) in his 1936 revision, at a time when, I suspect, he was in thrall to Sibelius. So, I'm v glad that Ursula VW did allow us to hear those earlier versions and I wish that VW had stuck at his 1920 revision. However, some of the other early VW scores (issued by Albion records for example) I could have done without ('A Cambridge Mass' for example) even though none of it was as bad (IMO) as that early Bax symphony.
Speaking about early & completed RVW, I found especially the 1899 Serenade, The Bucolic Suite (1901), the Heroic Elegy & Triumphal Epilogue (1901), The Solent (1903) and also the completion of the slow movement of the unfinished cello concerto, 'Dark Pastoral' (1943/2009) by David Matthews all interesting additions to my understanding of Vaughan Williams and music that can stand on its own feet.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 30, 2020, 04:44:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 30, 2020, 01:09:15 AM
Not intended for me I know, but I think that VW was quite wrong to prevent us from hearing the original 'London Symphony'. In particular I think that he cut out the best bit of the Symphony (just before the end) in his 1936 revision, at a time when, I suspect, he was in thrall to Sibelius. So, I'm v glad that Ursula VW did allow us to hear those earlier versions and I wish that VW had stuck at his 1920 revision. However, some of the other early VW scores (issued by Albion records for example) I could have done without ('A Cambridge Mass' for example) even though none of it was as bad (IMO) as that early Bax symphony.

I agree with you completely about the "London" being better in the 1920 revision - but I am so used to the final version that the extra material in both of the preceding versions still surprise me when I hear them!  The Cambridge Mass was a bit of a disappointment.  Perfectly good but in no way "vintage".....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 30, 2020, 05:03:29 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 30, 2020, 03:25:49 AM
Speaking about early & completed RVW, I found especially the 1899 Serenade, The Bucolic Suite (1901), the Heroic Elegy & Triumphal Epilogue (1901), The Solent (1903) and also the completion of the slow movement of the unfinished cello concerto, 'Dark Pastoral' (1943/2009) by David Matthews all interesting additions to my understanding of Vaughan Williams and music that can stand on its own feet.  :)

Oh yes, come to think of it I liked 'Dark Pastoral' as well and the Solent, echoes of which reappear in the 9th Symphony. I must give another listen to the Bucolic Suite and the early Serenade.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on September 30, 2020, 05:53:01 AM
Quote from: Oates on September 28, 2020, 08:42:04 AM
Secondly, if someone finds a brilliant score by Vaughan Williams that just happens to be unfinished, and which the composer clearly intended to be heard but for whatever reason didn't manage to get around to finishing, can't we be treated to a performance or recording that just stops dead midstream at the end of manuscript? It may be aesthetically jarring but at least we know where we are! Is there a musical equivalent of the Mystery of Edwin Drood or Weir of Hermiston?   

Bach's Art of Fugue, Contrapunctus XIV stops mid-stream.  Many recordings offer a completion but equally many others just stop where the notes stop, invariably a very dramatic moment.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on September 30, 2020, 06:13:43 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 29, 2020, 11:46:54 PM
Goodness me - a slightly bristling response!  Of course anyone - performer/composer/reconstructor etc - who has spent a long time considering and working on a score has far deeper insights into that work than a listener can hope to achieve on a few hear-throughs. 

The project you describe sounds very exciting/worthwhile/valuable indeed and if this music does make it to disc exactly the kind of thing I would be delighted to hear.  But the kind of reconstructions I am talking about are most certainly NOT "the culmination of the artist[']s achievements".  These are NOT a Bruckner 9/Mahler 10/Elgar 3.  These are fragments/incomplete works most often put aside by the composers themselves.  As someone else mentioned, composers are not always right in what they discard, but quite often they are.  They have an interest for listeners along the lines of a path not followed perhaps and thereby filling out an appreciation of the composer's wider achievement but often they are not central to that appreciation. 

You mention RVW's works as "having the right to be heard..."  Consider what RVW himself wrote on the scores of some of these works expressly forbidding later performances [for example the early versions of the 2nd Symphony].  Of The Solent RVW wrote "luckily long-since scrapped" when referencing the use of themes from the early work in later scores.  Latterly, the RVW estate - more than any other I can think of - have chosen to allow publication and performance of his early/incomplete works.  As it happens as a lover of his music - I am always pleased to hear more RVW but very rarely do I think the discovered music of anything but peripheral interest....  Hope I haven't bored you

No, you didn't bore me.  :laugh:  And sorry if I came across bristling whatever that means.  Your points are fair and reasonable.  RVW was also very self deprecating so glad we don't often listen to composers judging their own works.  He said he was the biggest cribber since Handel.  They're really not the best ones to assess their own quality.   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on September 30, 2020, 06:15:12 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 30, 2020, 03:25:49 AM
Speaking about early & completed RVW, I found especially the 1899 Serenade, The Bucolic Suite (1901), the Heroic Elegy & Triumphal Epilogue (1901), The Solent (1903) and also the completion of the slow movement of the unfinished cello concerto, 'Dark Pastoral' (1943/2009) by David Matthews all interesting additions to my understanding of Vaughan Williams and music that can stand on its own feet.  :)

+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 30, 2020, 06:22:37 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 30, 2020, 06:13:43 AM
No, you didn't bore me.  :laugh:  And sorry if I came across bristling whatever that means.  Your points are fair and reasonable.  RVW was also very self deprecating so glad we don't often listen to composers judging their own works.  He said he was the biggest cribber since Handel.  They're really not the best ones to assess their own quality.

When you are able to tell us - I'd love to know the composer/piece you have been reconstructing.......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 30, 2020, 06:34:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 29, 2020, 08:09:12 AM
Very much agree PD. There are some works worth reviving (Piano Quintet, Heroic Elegy and Triumphal Procession) but not all of them IMO.
I'll revisit the Piano Quintet.  I haven't heard of those other works Jeffrey.  What albums are they on?

Quote from: relm1 on September 29, 2020, 04:32:49 PM
I disagree.  First, I've done some reconstructions of compositions that were "discovered" in the scraps of a composer after their death or perhaps just the score and parts were lost and all that existed were multiple fragments from which a complete performance can be recreated with reasonable certainty.  I also have done musicological analysis of composers where you need to review the composer's intentions and really place yourself inside their head.  You might not really know it but you benefit from this work.  Here is an example.  The magnum opus of a composer's output was a 65 minute oratorio for soloists, chorus, and large orchestra but no one including his widow knew of this work.  It existed in fragments and pieces.  I spent around a year of very deep and thorough work reconstructing it and consider it a fantastic discovery.  It was performed and recorded last year and hopefully will be released on Naxos (in negotiations).  This will result in this unknown composer being discovered and potentially further works being recorded.  My work is an example of multiple years of deep and through work and your evaluation is the result of a few minutes of listening.  You are entitled to your opinion but I have an opinion of your opinion which I too am entitled to.  I would also add when the composer is one of substantial impact or recognition as RVW is, every work has the right to be heard and judged within a context of the artists journey.  Yes, you might find it a bore but many might find your opinion a far greater bore because we understand the culmination of the artists achievements and how each and every utterance contributed to a better understanding of the whole.
It's certainly true that one gets to see the development of a composer's style, skills, influences, etc. as their career and life unfolds.  And, I'm sure, that scholars find it exciting and rewarding to be able to examine earlier works or discarded and/or incomplete works, fragments and sketches.  How much of it your average music listener will appreciate and want to regularly revisit is a different question of course.  :)

What an exciting position to be in yourself!  May I ask how did you happen to come across this person's work?  I'm sure that his widow appreciates all of your hard work and care.  I hope that the negotiations go well with Naxos and look forward to hearing more about this composer from you and that we eventually are able to listen to this work....and others too.

Off now to revisit The Solent.

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 30, 2020, 06:54:03 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 30, 2020, 06:34:42 AM
I'll revisit the Piano Quintet.  I haven't heard of those other works Jeffrey.  What albums are they on?
It's certainly true that one gets to see the development of a composer's style, skills, influences, etc. as their career and life unfolds.  And, I'm sure, that scholars find it exciting and rewarding to be able to examine earlier works or discarded and/or incomplete works, fragments and sketches.  How much of it your average music listener will appreciate and want to regularly revisit is a different question of course.  :)

What an exciting position to be in yourself!  May I ask how did you happen to come across this person's work?  I'm sure that his widow appreciates all of your hard work and care.  I hope that the negotiations go well with Naxos and look forward to hearing more about this composer from you and that we eventually are able to listen to this work....and others too.

Off now to revisit The Solent.

Best wishes,

PD

Hi PD,
There are several recordings of the Piano Quintet but the Naxos is as good as any. The Heroic Elegy... is on Dutton.
img]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on September 30, 2020, 08:24:35 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 29, 2020, 07:28:15 AM
I think film score & Incidental Music reconstructions (not just by RVW - but the complete Scott of the Antarctic on Dutton is cracking) are very valid.  All too often excellent music cues get lost on the cutting room floor or the scores/parts have been mislaid so reconstruction is both valuable and important.

I agree - film and theatre scores are usually complete and approved by the composer. The cutting is usually done by others for reasons not connected with the quality of the music - if a scene is cut from a film, the music goes with it. It's great that efforts are made to present the full scores like Scott film. At least RVW had the good sense to recycle some of his best scores in more permanent forms.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 30, 2020, 08:53:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 30, 2020, 06:54:03 AM
Hi PD,
There are several recordings of the Piano Quintet but the Naxos is as good as any. The Heroic Elegy... is on Dutton.
img]
Thanks for the info Jeffrey.

I was able to find the Heroic Elegy and also Dark Pastoral (the slow movement from his cello concerto) online to listen to.  I particularly enjoyed the Dark Pastoral from 1942-43.  I dug through my Kennedy book (quickly) and saw a reference to it under "Uncompleted Works" at the back.  He just lists it as sketches for a cello concerto and that it was intended for Casals.   Unless I missed it, I didn't see anything about it in Chapter 8 (1931-43).  Do the Dutton notes say anything further about it?  And why he never finished it?  I wonder also how far along the sketches were for the other two movements?

Quote from: Oates on September 30, 2020, 08:24:35 AM
I agree - film and theatre scores are usually complete and approved by the composer. The cutting is usually done by others for reasons not connected with the quality of the music - if a scene is cut from a film, the music goes with it. It's great that efforts are made to present the full scores like Scott film. At least RVW had the good sense to recycle some of his best scores in more permanent forms.
I do often enjoy film and theater music and glad that we have gems like Grieg's music to Peer Gynt and Janacek's to Schluck und Jau.  More recent one:  The Piano, I purchased the CD to but was hoping/wishing that the composer (Michael Nyman) had worked to bring a resolution to the main, very haunting, theme.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 30, 2020, 09:11:32 AM
There are a series of Dutton cds with discarded, completed or orchestrated compositions by Vaughan Williams, especially:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81rmYUc8WXL._AC_SY355_.jpg)(https://e.snmc.io/i/600/w/c72b572cd7e89eb226afee294f9be111/6536285)(https://www.filmmusicsite.com/images/covers/large/74381.jpg)(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4VYAAOSw9sheQfxF/s-l640.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/611crpvdfjL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rI-NLlJTL._SY400_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51R3H7JdxWL._AC_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 30, 2020, 09:16:57 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 30, 2020, 09:11:32 AM
There are a series of Dutton cds with discarded, completed or orchestrated compositions by Vaughan Williams, especially:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81rmYUc8WXL._AC_SY355_.jpg)(https://e.snmc.io/i/600/w/c72b572cd7e89eb226afee294f9be111/6536285)(https://www.filmmusicsite.com/images/covers/large/74381.jpg)(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4VYAAOSw9sheQfxF/s-l640.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/611crpvdfjL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rI-NLlJTL._SY400_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51R3H7JdxWL._AC_.jpg)
Yes, thanks.  I knew that they had made a number of albums of VW's music.   :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 30, 2020, 09:20:45 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 30, 2020, 09:16:57 AM
Yes, thanks.  I knew that they had made a number of albums of VW's music.   :)

PD
Some of them dirt cheap at Dutton Vocalion themselves in the Autumn sales (from page 12 on): https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/products.php?cat=4&pg=12
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 30, 2020, 09:44:00 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 30, 2020, 09:20:45 AM
Some of them dirt cheap at Dutton Vocalion themselves in the Autumn sales (from page 12 on): https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/products.php?cat=4&pg=12
By the way, are these (the ones that you provided covers of) all albums of VW's music that you really like?  Note:  one of them, the image isn't visible; it's the top row...the one in the middle.

Will take a look, thanks Christo:  the shipping charges could be more than the CDs!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on September 30, 2020, 09:53:14 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 30, 2020, 09:44:00 AM
By the way, are these (the ones that you provided covers of) all albums of VW's music that you really like?  Note:  one of them, the image isn't visible; it's the top row...the one in the middle.

Will take a look, thanks Christo:  the shipping charges could be more than the CDs!

PD
I can see all six; the one in the middle, top row, is the complete, reconstructed film score of Scott of the Antarctic, also on Dutton. And yes: I like all of these albums, e.g. also the incidental music to The Blue Bird (1913) and Richard II (1944) to mention two compositions more.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on September 30, 2020, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 30, 2020, 06:22:37 AM
When you are able to tell us - I'd love to know the composer/piece you have been reconstructing.......

I sure will.  John Pickard said it was beautifully done so I'm quite proud of it and really enjoyed the music at the premiere.  Frankly, it was so much better than I imagined when performed so I hope it gets released.  But my point in all this is really, you shouldn't dismiss so causally these works that don't fit your taste in a listening.  These take so much care and effort to produce and added to the body of our understanding of the artist and their efforts.  Shakespeare should not be dismissed because of a juvenile effort but that should be heard and evaluated accordingly rather than dismissed.  Yes, you are free to find it lousy but others might not and that is the value of exposing it.  I'm sorry (not really) if I came across as harsh but I very strongly feel this.  I want to see the bad rehearsals of the Rite of Spring, not just the polished edition.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 01, 2020, 07:27:24 AM
Quote from: Oates on September 28, 2020, 10:16:55 AM
It would appear there is big splash being planned by the RVW Society for 2022 for the 150th birthday celebrations, which curiously enough is noted as "the last major anniversary before RVW goes out of copyright."

https://rvwsociety.com/rvw150/

I wonder if The Future is being held back for then.

It is an interesting comment about the copyright - I am right in thinking that this will mean performances and recordings will be more economically viable (or less expensive) to mount henceforth? Or will anyone who has access to RVW manuscripts be able to rework them without permission etc.
I found this to be of interest.  It's a brief summary of copyright laws and Vaughan Williams' works.  https://rvwsociety.com/copyright/

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on October 01, 2020, 01:41:54 PM
A new version of Job from Mark Elder and the Halle has been released. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 01, 2020, 09:38:53 PM
Quote from: Oates on October 01, 2020, 01:41:54 PM
A new version of Job from Mark Elder and the Halle has been released.
Oh, that's interesting. Job is one of my favourite VW works although I have about every recording. Boult's EMI version and Wordsworth's on Alto are favourites.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 02, 2020, 01:40:15 AM
Quote from: Oates on October 01, 2020, 01:41:54 PM
A new version of Job from Mark Elder and the Halle has been released.

Thanks for the tip - I have been waiting for this release. Elder has been consistently good with RVW apart from a rather disappointing Symphonies 4 & 6. A few months ago Elder/Halle performed Sancta Civitas; I am hoping it was recorded for future release.

Edit: Bought Job etc from Amazon, should arrive tomorrow.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 02, 2020, 06:07:06 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 02, 2020, 01:40:15 AM
Thanks for the tip - I have been waiting for this release. Elder has been consistently good with RVW apart from a rather disappointing Symphonies 4 & 6. A few months ago Elder/Halle performed Sancta Civitas; I am hoping it was recorded for future release.

Edit: Bought Job etc from Amazon, should arrive tomorrow.

Agree about Elder in 4 and 6 and Manze was even worse IMO. Elder's No.3 was the only one that I really liked. Interested to hear what you think of Job and the Songs of Travel. Presumably it's the orchestral version of the SOT. I like the orchestral version - it must be about the only VW recorded by Simon Rattle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 02, 2020, 09:13:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 02, 2020, 06:07:06 AM
Agree about Elder in 4 and 6 and Manze was even worse IMO. Elder's No.3 was the only one that I really liked. Interested to hear what you think of Job and the Songs of Travel. Presumably it's the orchestral version of the SOT. I like the orchestral version - it must be about the only VW recorded by Simon Rattle.

I listened to Rattle's Songs of Travel recently.  Its very good - of course On Wenlock Edge was on the same disc.  What a great piece - probably even more powerful in the original version somehow the reduced palette of "just" quartet and piano works supremely well.  But I like this orchestral version too....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 03, 2020, 02:41:37 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 02, 2020, 09:13:05 AM
I listened to Rattle's Songs of Travel recently.  Its very good - of course On Wenlock Edge was on the same disc.  What a great piece - probably even more powerful in the original version somehow the reduced palette of "just" quartet and piano works supremely well.  But I like this orchestral version too....

I get the impression that Rattle didn't think much of Vaughan Williams's music but at least he recorded that very fine disc.
When it was re-issued on the EMI British Composer's series it included George Butterworth's song cycle 'Love blows as the wind blows' which is a lovely work, especially the song 'Coming up from Richmond'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svgsg1mTkeo
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 03, 2020, 02:45:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2020, 02:41:37 AM
I get the impression that Rattle didn't think much of Vaughan Williams's music but at least he recorded that very fine disc.
When it was re-issued on the EMI British Composer's series it included George Butterworth's song cycle 'Love blows as the wind blows' which is a lovely work, especially the song 'Coming up from Kew'.
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I still haven't watched it but Rattle's Symphony No.5 at the Proms this year was pretty universally praised;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNXBfIA30Mc

Interesting his rationale for not playing more RVW back in his CBSO days (which can be summed up as "lots of other people were already doing it....." - not sure if the same applied to Mahler???)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 03, 2020, 03:02:27 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 03, 2020, 02:45:58 AM
I still haven't watched it but Rattle's Symphony No.5 at the Proms this year was pretty universally praised;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNXBfIA30Mc

Interesting his rationale for not playing more RVW back in his CBSO days (which can be summed up as "lots of other people were already doing it....." - not sure if the same applied to Mahler???)

I am not sure how much weight the possibility of a recording carries when deciding to play a work in concert but Rattle would have been up against some stiff competition in the recording front for RVW. I suppose the same could be said for Mahler and Sibelius but he seems to have been more confident performing them.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 03, 2020, 05:18:34 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 03, 2020, 02:45:58 AM
I still haven't watched it but Rattle's Symphony No.5 at the Proms this year was pretty universally praised;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNXBfIA30Mc

Interesting his rationale for not playing more RVW back in his CBSO days (which can be summed up as "lots of other people were already doing it....." - not sure if the same applied to Mahler???)

Hadn't realised that. Thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 03, 2020, 06:20:01 AM
Just listened to Rattle's Prom performance of the Fifth. It got off to a good start but then the 1st movement seemed to become strangely inert. A decent scherzo then a beautiful Romanze and a fine Finale.

Further thoughts about his time with the CBSO. Perhaps he just didn't think RVW was for him, whatever reason he is giving now. He conducted and recorded Walton and Britten. Sir Colin Davis was a great champion of British music but also seemed to avoid RVW. I heard him conduct Symphony No 6 in the RFH with the Philharmonia and he also performed it with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra in Munich but apart from that I can't think of anything else.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on October 03, 2020, 07:54:27 AM
I recorded the broadcast but thought the orchestral ensemble work sounded well below par from the get-go (players socially-distanced of course), didn't listen to it all.  I thought the Elgar Introduction & Allegro from the same concert was much better, assertive and vigorous playing, really worthwhile.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on October 03, 2020, 08:27:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2020, 02:41:37 AM
When it was re-issued on the EMI British Composer's series it included George Butterworth's song cycle 'Love blows as the wind blows' which is a lovely work, especially the song 'Coming up from Richmond'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svgsg1mTkeo
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Oh yes, that Butterworth song cycle is lovely. Sheer bliss.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 03, 2020, 08:57:23 AM
Quote from: kyjo on October 03, 2020, 08:27:14 AM
Oh yes, that Butterworth song cycle is lovely. Sheer bliss.
I hadn't heard that song before; enchanting!  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 03, 2020, 12:47:19 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 03, 2020, 08:57:23 AM
I hadn't heard that song before; enchanting!  :)

PD

Glad that you and Kyle think so PD. I find it even more poignant in view of Butterworth's early death in the First World War.

I wonder if you know this song: 'To Gratiana dancing and singing' by W. Denis Browne who, like Butterworth, was tragically killed in the First World War. Ursula Vaughan Williams said that she thought that it was better than any song composed by her husband and I think that she was right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjR91VzRxkQ
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2020, 11:33:34 PM
VW's 148th birthday today.
So, playing my favourite version of A Sea Symphony - a recording which brought the work alive for me.
From WAYLTN thread:
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2020, 01:49:10 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 11, 2020, 11:33:34 PM
VW's 148th birthday today.
So, playing my favourite version of A Sea Symphony - a recording which brought the work alive for me.
From WAYLTN thread:
(//)

+1 for this performance - one which merited that highest of all accolades; "a snooze-fest" from the sage-like David Hurwitz.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2020, 02:37:39 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2020, 01:49:10 AM
+1 for this performance - one which merited that highest of all accolades; "a snooze-fest" from the sage-like David Hurwitz.

Haha - how typical of DH!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 12, 2020, 03:24:46 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 11, 2020, 11:33:34 PM
VW's 148th birthday today.
So, playing my favourite version of A Sea Symphony - a recording which brought the work alive for me.
From WAYLTN thread:
(//)
Ah, crumbs!  I missed it.  Will have to play some of his music today and send 'Happy Birthday' wishes/prayers his way.

Must admit, I'm not a huge fan of his Sea Symphony.  I do have the Haitink recording of it and should give it a visit later....when I'm a bit more awake.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on October 12, 2020, 05:54:07 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 12, 2020, 03:24:46 AM
Ah, crumbs!  I missed it.  Will have to play some of his music today and send 'Happy Birthday' wishes/prayers his way.

Must admit, I'm not a huge fan of his Sea Symphony.  I do have the Haitink recording of it and should give it a visit later....when I'm a bit more awake.

PD

This is the finest version I've heard.  Just incredible sonics and perfectly judged tempo...a far cry from the No. 8 and No. 9 release with the same forces which sounds terrible and ignores the score.  It's interesting why No. 1 resonates so much with some and not so much with others.  Try to put your finger on what it is that doesn't work for you when you revisit it.  Here is why the work is so moving to me.  It slowly evolves from being about the sea, ships, and sailors sailing off to the horizon to becoming a metaphor for the wandering of the soul where the horizon is after life.  It isn't just about the sea which is the giver of life, it transcends that to become about life, the universe, the earth and the soul's journey and the mystery that awaits beyond.  This transcending transformation is done so gloriously at the long ending. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on October 12, 2020, 07:36:45 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2020, 01:49:10 AM
+1 for this performance - one which merited that highest of all accolades; "a snooze-fest" from the sage-like David Hurwitz.

Yup. I wrote about it in the DH thread. Coincidentally, moved by DH's silly characterization of the performance as a snooze fest, yesterday I pulled out the disc for an airing on loudspeakers today or tomorrow (must wait for the missus to be away for 75 minutes  :P).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2020, 07:43:29 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 12, 2020, 05:54:07 AM
This is the finest version I've heard.  Just incredible sonics and perfectly judged tempo...a far cry from the No. 8 and No. 9 release with the same forces which sounds terrible and ignores the score.  It's interesting why No. 1 resonates so much with some and not so much with others.  Try to put your finger on what it is that doesn't work for you when you revisit it.  Here is why the work is so moving to me.  It slowly evolves from being about the sea, ships, and sailors sailing off to the horizon to becoming a metaphor for the wandering of the soul where the horizon is after life.  It isn't just about the sea which is the giver of life, it transcends that to become about life, the universe, the earth and the soul's journey and the mystery that awaits beyond.  This transcending transformation is done so gloriously at the long ending.

Thankyou for sharing your "vision" of this work - what you write resonates with me too.  Its a kind of "Toward The Unknown Region" writ large quite literally....  I have never read any Whitman away from the poems that composers have set but I do think he seemed to inspire great music from great composers and that's good enough for me!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 12, 2020, 07:54:04 AM
I will also have to revisit Haitink. Not  sure when - I have to be in a special mood to listen to the Sea Symphony and I don't always get to the end. Don't be put off by Hurwitz's praise of Spano. Several years ago when the work was the subject of R3 Building a Library Spano was a surprise first choice (can't remember who the reviewer was). I was intrigued and bought it - it is a fine performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2020, 08:20:08 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 12, 2020, 07:54:04 AM
I will also have to revisit Haitink. Not  sure when - I have to be in a special mood to listen to the Sea Symphony and I don't always get to the end. Don't be put off by Hurwitz's praise of Spano. Several years ago when the work was the subject of R3 Building a Library Spano was a surprise first choice (can't remember who the reviewer was). I was intrigued and bought it - it is a fine performance.

I like the Spano version too - but curious how damming some folk are of Spano's tenure in Atlanta.  I'm in no position to judge living as I do in Surrey!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2020, 08:52:36 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 12, 2020, 05:54:07 AM
This is the finest version I've heard.  Just incredible sonics and perfectly judged tempo...a far cry from the No. 8 and No. 9 release with the same forces which sounds terrible and ignores the score.  It's interesting why No. 1 resonates so much with some and not so much with others.  Try to put your finger on what it is that doesn't work for you when you revisit it.  Here is why the work is so moving to me.  It slowly evolves from being about the sea, ships, and sailors sailing off to the horizon to becoming a metaphor for the wandering of the soul where the horizon is after life.  It isn't just about the sea which is the giver of life, it transcends that to become about life, the universe, the earth and the soul's journey and the mystery that awaits beyond.  This transcending transformation is done so gloriously at the long ending.
Thanks from me too for sharing your vision of the score, which is also one that I relate to.

I listened to work in two stages today.

Stage 1 (with my wife in the room) 'Must we listen to this?'

Stage 2 (just me and the cat)

The best music is in the finale which moved me just as much as ever.

Actually my wife does like some VW but mainly of the Tallis/Lark variety.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2020, 08:56:42 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 12, 2020, 03:24:46 AM
Ah, crumbs!  I missed it.  Will have to play some of his music today and send 'Happy Birthday' wishes/prayers his way.

Must admit, I'm not a huge fan of his Sea Symphony.  I do have the Haitink recording of it and should give it a visit later....when I'm a bit more awake.

PD

For decades I never listened to a Sea Symphony, until I heard Haitink's recording which really was a revelation to me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2020, 08:58:09 AM
Quote from: André on October 12, 2020, 07:36:45 AM
Yup. I wrote about it in the DH thread. Coincidentally, moved by DH's silly characterization of the performance as a snooze fest, yesterday I pulled out the disc for an airing on loudspeakers today or tomorrow (must wait for the missus to be away for 75 minutes  :P).

Haha - I can relate to that  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 12, 2020, 03:10:33 PM
Quote from: relm1 on October 12, 2020, 05:54:07 AM
This is the finest version I've heard.  Just incredible sonics and perfectly judged tempo...a far cry from the No. 8 and No. 9 release with the same forces which sounds terrible and ignores the score.  It's interesting why No. 1 resonates so much with some and not so much with others.  Try to put your finger on what it is that doesn't work for you when you revisit it.  Here is why the work is so moving to me.  It slowly evolves from being about the sea, ships, and sailors sailing off to the horizon to becoming a metaphor for the wandering of the soul where the horizon is after life.  It isn't just about the sea which is the giver of life, it transcends that to become about life, the universe, the earth and the soul's journey and the mystery that awaits beyond.  This transcending transformation is done so gloriously at the long ending.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.  :)  I'll give it another visit soon (today was a bit crazy-busy).

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 15, 2020, 12:53:57 AM
Review of new Elder/Job disc:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Oct/VW-Job-CDHLL7556.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 15, 2020, 02:09:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 15, 2020, 12:53:57 AM
Review of new Elder/Job disc:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Oct/VW-Job-CDHLL7556.htm

Interesting review and I agree with what he has to say about Neal Davies' vibrato though I found it less annoying on a third listen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 15, 2020, 10:02:31 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 15, 2020, 02:09:23 AM
Interesting review and I agree with what he has to say about Neal Davies' vibrato though I found it less annoying on a third listen.
I think that I'll still get it as I like both works very much.
On Radio 3, as I was driving to work this morning, they played the scherzo from 'A London Symphony' and I thought that it sounded like an excellent performance. It was Elder conducting. I enjoyed his 'A Pastoral Symphony' greatly but was rather put off buying any more of his series after a disappointing (IMO) recording of symphonies 4 and 6. So, at some point I might acquire 'A London Symphony' as well. Interesting to read your comments on the new 'Job' recording. What did you think about Elder's performance of 'Job' itself.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 17, 2020, 03:21:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 15, 2020, 10:02:31 AM
I think that I'll still get it as I like both works very much.
On Radio 3, as I was driving to work this morning, they played the scherzo from 'A London Symphony' and I thought that it sounded like an excellent performance. It was Elder conducting. I enjoyed his 'A Pastoral Symphony' greatly but was rather put off buying any more of his series after a disappointing (IMO) recording of symphonies 4 and 6. So, at some point I might acquire 'A London Symphony' as well. Interesting to read your comments on the new 'Job' recording. What did you think about Elder's performance of 'Job' itself.

The disc was reviewed this morning on BBC R3 Record Review and the response was positive. They played one of the Songs of Travel and Satan's Dance of Triumph. In the song Davies's vibrato came back to annoy me and Satan lacked impact on the radio (though not on the CD) - it was good to hear another positive review. For Job, on first hearing, I am more enthusiastic than the two reviews I have seen/heard so far and find it the best Job since Boult/LSO (my Gold Standard). I am sure someone will prefer a recording I missed.

After the disappointing Symphonies 4 & 6 I was very apprehensive. This was compounded by an Amazon delivery glitch and so I was a bit wound up by the time the disc finally arrived. I will now have to see if it stands the test of time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 17, 2020, 03:38:57 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 17, 2020, 03:21:11 AM
The disc was reviewed this morning on BBC R3 Record Review and the response was positive. They played one of the Songs of Travel and Satan's Dance of Triumph. In the song Davies's vibrato came back to annoy me and Satan lacked impact on the radio (though not on the CD) - it was good to hear another positive review. For Job, on first hearing, I am more enthusiastic than the two reviews I have seen/heard so far and find it the best Job since Boult/LSO (my Gold Standard). I am sure someone will prefer a recording I missed.

After the disappointing Symphonies 4 & 6 I was very apprehensive. This was compounded by an Amazon delivery glitch and so I was a bit wound up by the time the disc finally arrived. I will now have to see if it stands the test of time.
Many thanks Biffo. I think that I will certainly get it and may try to listen to Record Review later. I agree with you about Boult's EMI LSO recording - it was the first one I owned on LP. I purchases it shortly after hearing Boult conduct it on VW's 100th birthday on Oct.12th 1972 at the RFH when I was still at school. That was the first time that I'd heard the work. I also like Barry Wordsworth's recording on Alto and not just because I provided the booklet notes. I encouraged Alto the release it (from Collins Classics) and I think that it's a splendid performance. Maybe I'll ask my daughter to get me the Elder/Job for Christmas! Thanks again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on October 17, 2020, 05:23:16 AM
A number of years late, finally my copy of the disc with 'Fat Knight', the suite from Sir John in Love, arrived. Any thoughts on the suite?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8189SlDmzdL._AC_SL1210_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 17, 2020, 10:10:13 PM
Quote from: Christo on October 17, 2020, 05:23:16 AM
A number of years late, finally my copy of the disc with 'Fat Knight', the suite from Sir John in Love, arrived. Any thoughts on the suite?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8189SlDmzdL._AC_SL1210_.jpg)

I didn't think much of that CD with its stupid title. One of the few Dutton disappointments as far as I'm concerned. Something like Robin Milford's Symphony would have been a better choice. Others might like the disc more.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 18, 2020, 01:26:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 17, 2020, 10:10:13 PM
I didn't think much of that CD with its stupid title. One of the few Dutton disappointments as far as I'm concerned. Something like Robin Milford's Symphony would have been a better choice. Others might like the disc more.

Apparently 'Fat Knight' was RVW's original title for 'Sir John in Love'. He later gave the name to a suite drawn from the opera he never got round to orchestrating. I can't say I am drawn to the disc either. I have another spin-off from the complete opera - 'In Windsor Forest' - a cantata RVW put together for the Leith Hill Festival. It is from the Bournemouth Sinfonietta conducted by Norman Del Mar - I haven't heard it for years, will have to give it a spin soon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 18, 2020, 03:09:59 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 18, 2020, 01:26:05 AM
Apparently 'Fat Knight' was RVW's original title for 'Sir John in Love'. He later gave the name to a suite drawn from the opera he never got round to orchestrating. I can't say I am drawn to the disc either. I have another spin-off from the complete opera - 'In Windsor Forest' - a cantata RVW put together for the Leith Hill Festival. It is from the Bournemouth Sinfonietta conducted by Norman Del Mar - I haven't heard it for years, will have to give it a spin soon.

"In Windsor Forest" is perfectly pleasant.  You can imagine RVW looking at ways of providing new music/getting royalties from creating these choral society-type works.  I suppose what lessens its appeal for me is the way it emphasises the slightly twee side of "Sir John in Love" which is what I struggle with in Hugh the Drover as well - the idealised pre-industrial revolution rural idyll
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 18, 2020, 03:23:11 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 18, 2020, 03:09:59 AM
"In Windsor Forest" is perfectly pleasant.  You can imagine RVW looking at ways of providing new music/getting royalties from creating these choral society-type works.  I suppose what lessens its appeal for me is the way it emphasises the slightly twee side of "Sir John in Love" which is what I struggle with in Hugh the Drover as well - the idealised pre-industrial revolution rural idyll

I have just listened to 'In Windsor Forest' and I can see your point. Perfectly pleasant is a good description.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 18, 2020, 11:22:07 PM
A favourable review for Elder's new 'Job' disc in the Sunday Times yesterday:

'...The 45 minute score dates from 1930 and is one of his most richly orchestrated. Mark Elder follows Adrian Boult and Andrew Davis as a devoted advocate, with his Hallé orchestra at the peak of its powers. There are warmer toned accounts of the songs, but [Neil] Davies is always an honest musician.'

I like both of Andrew Davis's recordings of 'Job' on Teldec/Warner and Chandos:

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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 19, 2020, 01:01:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 18, 2020, 11:22:07 PM
A favourable review for Elder's new 'Job' disc in the Sunday Times yesterday:

'...The 45 minute score dates from 1930 and is one of his most richly orchestrated. Mark Elder follows Adrian Boult and Andrew Davis as a devoted advocate, with his Hallé orchestra at the peak of its powers. There are warmer toned accounts of the songs, but [Neil] Davies is always an honest musician.'

I like both of Andrew Davis's recordings of 'Job' on Teldec/Warner and Chandos:

(//)

I had forgotten about Andrew Davis' Job on Warner, I have it as part of the box set of symphonies - something else to add to the list of 'things to listen to'. The Chandos version is very fine.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 01:31:21 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 19, 2020, 01:01:59 AM
I had forgotten about Andrew Davis' Job on Warner, I have it as part of the box set of symphonies - something else to add to the list of 'things to listen to'. The Chandos version is very fine.

Yes, I think that Andrew Davis CD featuring Symphony No.9 and 'Job' on Teldec/Warner was excellent. There was also IMO an even finer Davis version of the 9th Symphony which came with BBC Music Magazine. I'm currently listening to Vernon Handley's earlier CFP recordings of symphonies 2 and 6 which tended to get forgotten about when he recorded the whole cycle with the Royal Liverpool PO. In some ways I think that the earlier recordings have more character, especially 'A London Symphony' although at the cataclysmic start of the 6th Symphony the Liverpool PO deliver more impact. I like this double CD set as it also includes the short 'Prelude and Fugue' which I like very much. Also, I prefer this version to the one on Chandos:
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 19, 2020, 02:15:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 01:31:21 AM
Yes, I think that Andrew Davis CD featuring Symphony No.9 and 'Job' on Teldec/Warner was excellent. There was also IMO an even finer Davis version of the 9th Symphony which came with BBC Music Magazine. I'm currently listening to Vernon Handley's earlier CFP recordings of symphonies 2 and 6 which tended to get forgotten about when he recorded the whole cycle with the Royal Liverpool PO. In some ways I think that the earlier recordings have more character, especially 'A London Symphony' although at the cataclysmic start of the 6th Symphony the Liverpool PO deliver more impact. I like this double CD set as it also includes the short 'Prelude and Fugue' which I like very much. Also, I prefer this version to the one on Chandos:

I have the CfP 'London' on a cassette, currently unplayable so I haven't heard it for a while. It came coupled with a rather robust Tallis Fantasia. I am tempted to buy the two-CD Warner set to refresh my memory.

Also, I am bit confused about which work you are referring to in the highlighted sentence.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 02:47:03 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 19, 2020, 02:15:23 AM
I have the CfP 'London' on a cassette, currently unplayable so I haven't heard it for a while. It came coupled with a rather robust Tallis Fantasia. I am tempted to buy the two-CD Warner set to refresh my memory.

Also, I am bit confused about which work you are referring to in the highlighted sentence.

Prelude and Fugue in C minor which was originally an organ work from 1921, around the time of 'A Pastoral Symphony' which VW transcribed for organ and orchestra in 1930. Here is the CD which features, as far as I'm aware, the only other recording. I think that you will like the Warner double CD set. I've just listened to Symphony No.6 which seems more 'alive' on CD than I remember from my old CFP LP. However, I loved the stormy LP cover image (shown above):
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 19, 2020, 03:21:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 02:47:03 AM
Prelude and Fugue in C minor which was originally an organ work from 1921, around the time of 'A Pastoral Symphony' which VW transcribed for organ and orchestra in 1930. Here is the CD which features, as far as I'm aware, the only other recording. I think that you will like the Warner double CD set. I've just listened to Symphony No.6 which seems more 'alive' on CD than I remember from my old CFP LP. However, I loved the stormy LP cover image (shown above):
(//)

Thanks. I have that album as a download - something else to revisit!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 19, 2020, 03:59:41 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 19, 2020, 03:21:29 AM
Thanks. I have that album as a download - something else to revisit!

Your memory of the CFP disc is quite correct.  It reappeared on CD as part of a "Silver-Double" set - awful artwork masking an excellent pair of discs;

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-England-Ralph-Vaughan-Williams/dp/B000025VIM/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=The+best+of+England&qid=1603108495&s=music&sr=1-1

The 1st disc not only contains the robust Tallis you mention but also the same Prelude & Fugue performance AND one of the great Britten Serenades from Ian Partridge with Nicholas Busch the glorious horn soloist.  Handley's Tippettt Double Concerto completes this disc.  Disc 2 is not quite so distinguished with an OK Britten violin concerto and a so-so Belshazzar from James Loughran and the Halle.  Not awful just not competitive.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 04:20:44 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 19, 2020, 03:59:41 AM
Your memory of the CFP disc is quite correct.  It reappeared on CD as part of a "Silver-Double" set - awful artwork masking an excellent pair of discs;

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-England-Ralph-Vaughan-Williams/dp/B000025VIM/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=The+best+of+England&qid=1603108495&s=music&sr=1-1

The 1st disc not only contains the robust Tallis you mention but also the same Prelude & Fugue performance AND one of the great Britten Serenades from Ian Partridge with Nicholas Busch the glorious horn soloist.  Handley's Tippettt Double Concerto completes this disc.  Disc 2 is not quite so distinguished with an OK Britten violin concerto and a so-so Belshazzar from James Loughran and the Halle.  Not awful just not competitive.
+1 I have that nice 'Best of British' set too (I'd forgotten that it included that fine Prelude and Fugue recording as well). The Tippett and VW Tallis are especially good and I recall that the double 'Best of British' CD set was played a great deal here when it first came out, although I agree that disc 1 was preferable to disc 2. I have the old CFP LP as well, with a much better image than those which featured on the Handley RLPO EMI Eminence CDs. These must be about the most inappropriate cover designs anywhere. The cover for the CD featuring Symphony No.4 would be ideal for the front of a box featuring a Cadbury's Milk Tray selection:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 19, 2020, 04:49:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 04:20:44 AM
+1 I have that nice 'Best of British' set too (I'd forgotten that it included that fine Prelude and Fugue recording as well). The Tippett and VW Tallis are especially good and I recall that the double 'Best of British' CD set was played a great deal here when it first came out, although I agree that disc 1 was preferable to disc 2. I have the old CFP LP as well, with a much better image than those which featured on the Handley RLPO EMI Eminence CDs. These must be about the most inappropriate cover designs anywhere. The cover for the CD featuring Symphony No.4 would be ideal for the front of a box featuring a Cadbury's Milk Tray selection:
(http://[img][img])[/img][/img]
:laugh:  ;D

Is this the BBC MM/Davis CD to which you were referring Jeffrey?  I have it and should revisit it.

(https://img.discogs.com/kZpigH0rHqNGQhQneSK5xusUr6Q=/fit-in/600x588/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-15895423-1599760826-7115.jpeg.jpg)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 19, 2020, 07:49:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 04:20:44 AM
+1 I have that nice 'Best of British' set too (I'd forgotten that it included that fine Prelude and Fugue recording as well). The Tippett and VW Tallis are especially good and I recall that the double 'Best of British' CD set was played a great deal here when it first came out, although I agree that disc 1 was preferable to disc 2. I have the old CFP LP as well, with a much better image than those which featured on the Handley RLPO EMI Eminence CDs. These must be about the most inappropriate cover designs anywhere. The cover for the CD featuring Symphony No.4 would be ideal for the front of a box featuring a Cadbury's Milk Tray selection:
(http://[img][img])[/img][/img]

Agree re EMI Eminence but they upped their game for the later CD reissues on Classics for Pleasure where I find the cover designs not only attractive but also appropriate. The best is the excellent Handley Job - a fabulous CD - which in my opinion is the best on CD or LP. But the symphonies are pretty good too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 07:59:52 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 19, 2020, 04:49:43 AM
:laugh:  ;D

Is this the BBC MM/Davis CD to which you were referring Jeffrey?  I have it and should revisit it.

(https://img.discogs.com/kZpigH0rHqNGQhQneSK5xusUr6Q=/fit-in/600x588/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-15895423-1599760826-7115.jpeg.jpg)

PD

Yes, indeed PD and in the following issue they printed my letter saying how much I had enjoyed the performance which, I think, is a very fine one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 08:03:25 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 19, 2020, 07:49:05 AM
Agree re EMI Eminence but they upped their game for the later CD reissues on Classics for Pleasure where I find the cover designs not only attractive but also appropriate. The best is the excellent Handley Job - a fabulous CD - which in my opinion is the best on CD or LP. But the symphonies are pretty good too.
Very much agree Lol, both in relation to the cover images and the excellence of Handley's performance of 'Job' which I enjoyed more than any of his RLPO symphony recordings, sound as they are.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 19, 2020, 01:23:40 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 08:03:25 AM
Very much agree Lol, both in relation to the cover images and the excellence of Handley's performance of 'Job' which I enjoyed more than any of his RLPO symphony recordings, sound as they are.

I also like the couplings on Handley's "Job" Jeffrey. The Fantasia comes up fresh and a piece I'm not so familiar with "Dives and Lazarus" is lovely.

You maybe onto something with the RLPO recordings, although I rate the "London". I listened to No.3 this evening, and not for the first time I just cannot seem to engage with this recording. I longed for Boult or Previn.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 02:32:28 PM
Quote from: Irons on October 19, 2020, 01:23:40 PM
I also like the couplings on Handley's "Job" Jeffrey. The Fantasia comes up fresh and a piece I'm not so familiar with "Dives and Lazarus" is lovely.

You maybe onto something with the RLPO recordings, although I rate the "London". I listened to No.3 this evening, and not for the first time I just cannot seem to engage with this recording. I longed for Boult or Previn.

Dives and Lazarus is one of my favourite VW works. Barbirolli's is my favourite recording but the Handley is fine as well. For me, those RLPO symphony recordings are all solid, but none of them would be a first choice. Boult, Previn and Thomson would be my first choices for a complete set and they all contain very special recordings, such as Boult's Decca No.6 and 7, Previn's nos 2,3 and 8 (magical) and Thomson's nos 6 and 9.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 20, 2020, 02:01:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 19, 2020, 02:32:28 PM
Dives and Lazarus is one of my favourite VW works. Barbirolli's is my favourite recording but the Handley is fine as well. For me, those RLPO symphony recordings are all solid, but none of them would be a first choice. Boult, Previn and Thomson would be my first choices for a complete set and they all contain very special recordings, such as Boult's Decca No.6 and 7, Previn's nos 2,3 and 8 (magical) and Thomson's nos 6 and 9.

A pity JB never recorded Dives and Lazarus in stereo - just listened to the 1957 mono recording, some of it sounds fine but there are rough patches. My introduction to D&L was Marriner/ASMF, still a favourite though I have acquired several others over the years.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2020, 02:20:07 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 20, 2020, 02:01:08 AM
A pity JB never recorded Dives and Lazarus in stereo - just listened to the 1957 mono recording, some of it sounds fine but there are rough patches. My introduction to D&L was Marriner/ASMF, still a favourite though I have acquired several others over the years.
Yes, that's a famous recording as well. My introduction to D&L was the Jacques Orchestra coupled with An Oxford Elegy and Flos Campi on LP. Actually, on second thoughts, I first heard it when I took out Barbirolli's LP also featuring Rubbra's 5th Symphony and VW's Oboe Concerto. That was a great disc as it introduced me to Rubbra's music.
[/img]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on October 22, 2020, 11:15:50 AM

I've just enjoyed watching British Transport Films' The Scene from Melbury House (1972) (lovely on blu-ray) which makes inventive use of the London Symphony throughout, set to contemporary footage of London shot from the roof of the said building. BFI says "The material was then composed into a shape not inappropriate to its musical accompaniment, drawn from the London Symphony of Ralph Vaughan Williams – who was also a neighbour and a friend of the unit."

Can be seen here:

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-scene-from-melbury-house-1973-online

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 23, 2020, 09:43:42 AM
Quote from: Oates on October 22, 2020, 11:15:50 AM
I've just enjoyed watching British Transport Films' The Scene from Melbury House (1972) (lovely on blu-ray) which makes inventive use of the London Symphony throughout, set to contemporary footage of London shot from the roof of the said building. BFI says "The material was then composed into a shape not inappropriate to its musical accompaniment, drawn from the London Symphony of Ralph Vaughan Williams – who was also a neighbour and a friend of the unit."

Can be seen here:

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-scene-from-melbury-house-1973-online
Interesting and a bit of a nostalgia trip for someone who grew up in Central London. 1972 was the VW Centenary year and just after I fell in love with his music (aged 16/17) . Nice to see those scenes from my youth with Battersea Power Station in full swing etc. I'm not sure, however, about the marrying up of the music to the visuals. I thought that, at the end, the closing section of A London Symphony could have worked very well with the sun going down over the city but that section was not accompanied by any music at all. Thanks for posting it though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on October 24, 2020, 05:54:08 AM
 I agree with about the aptness of the visuals. The symphony evokes a very different London for me. It's a case of seeing what other people hear in a piece of music, and my own imagination usually conjures up something very different. I remember seeing the Ken Russell / South Bank Show on Vaughan Williams and (if I remember correctly) he had the Pastoral Symphony set to army tank manoeuvres on Salisbury Plain. I know this is referred to as a war symphony but it didn't work for me at all (and I'm usually a Ken Russell fan). 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 24, 2020, 06:27:24 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 23, 2020, 09:43:42 AM
Interesting and a bit of a nostalgia trip for someone who grew up in Central London. 1972 was the VW Centenary year and just after I fell in love with his music (aged 16/17) . Nice to see those scenes from my youth with Battersea Power Station in full swing etc. I'm not sure, however, about the marrying up of the music to the visuals. I thought that, at the end, the closing section of A London Symphony could have worked very well with the sun going down over the city but that section was not accompanied by any music at all. Thanks for posting it though.

Nostalgic for me too, I moved to London in September 1973, it brought back all sorts of memories.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 24, 2020, 07:57:36 AM
Quote from: Oates on October 24, 2020, 05:54:08 AM
I agree with about the aptness of the visuals. The symphony evokes a very different London for me. It's a case of seeing what other people hear in a piece of music, and my own imagination usually conjures up something very different. I remember seeing the Ken Russell / South Bank Show on Vaughan Williams and (if I remember correctly) he had the Pastoral Symphony set to army tank manoeuvres on Salisbury Plain. I know this is referred to as a war symphony but it didn't work for me at all (and I'm usually a Ken Russell fan).

Yes, you're right about the Ken Russell film, which I rather enjoyed. Ken Russell seemed most concerned about the arrival of the 'Beaujolais Nouvelle' if my memory serves me well and yes it did involve tanks on Salisbury Plain. However, the visuals accompanying the Ninth Symphony (David Mcfall's extraordinary bronze portrait head  of VW for example) were  much more appropriate that the crass choice of the 'Oh Thou Transcendant' documentary (which was otherwise excellent) to accompany the Ninth Symphony with images of starving and emaciated children in Biafra and other war zones. It was as completely inappropriate as the Cadbury's Milk Tray designs which accompanied the EMI Eminence series of VW symphonies. Ken Russell's film about the short lived sculptor Gaudier Brzeska ('Savage Messiah') was my favourite of his films although 'The Music Lovers' was a guilty pleasure as well. I wish that the VW documentary was available on You Tube or DVD. Oddly, for Ken Russell, it was rather less pretentious than some of the other VW documentaries that I have seen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 24, 2020, 12:59:31 PM
Earlier today I listened to this disc;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/gqYAAOSwxHlcNCK1/s-l640.jpg)

which of course includes the Jacques/Five Varients Vandermolen mentioned.  Five Tudor Portraits is probably the large-scale RVW work I listen to LEAST and I put this disc on for the couplings - the Benedicite and the Variants.  But I actually really enjoyed the Portraits this time!  This recording for all its age is very fine.  Bainbridge is lovely in the soprano solos and Carol Case is good although I always find his voice a bit watery.  I prefer more muscular baritones - Allen/Shirley Quirk/Luxon from this period do it for me.  Apart from some tape hiss the actual production of this piece works very well indeed.  The complex and detailed score registers well and the Bach Choir sound full voiced and immediate.  It really is one of RVW's most overtly colourful scores.  Again, I'd forgotten what extended use he makes of the Dies Irae in the Romanza/Lament movement which does have the finest music of the work.  The Benedicite was equally uplifting and all rounded off by the beautiful balm of the Variants (I have in my own library of orchestral music Reginald Jacques' sets for the Holst St. Pauls and Brook Green Suites which gives me a disproportionate amount of pleasure!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 24, 2020, 01:10:42 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 24, 2020, 12:59:31 PM
Earlier today I listened to this disc;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/gqYAAOSwxHlcNCK1/s-l640.jpg)

which of course includes the Jacques/Five Varients Vandermolen mentioned.  Five Tudor Portraits is probably the large-scale RVW work I listen to LEAST and I put this disc on for the couplings - the Benedicite and the Variants.  But I actually really enjoyed the Portraits this time!  This recording for all its age is very fine.  Bainbridge is lovely in the soprano solos and Carol Case is good although I always find his voice a bit watery.  I prefer more muscular baritones - Allen/Shirley Quirk/Luxon from this period do it for me.  Apart from some tape hiss the actual production of this piece works very well indeed.  The complex and detailed score registers well and the Bach Choir sound full voiced and immediate.  It really is one of RVW's most overtly colourful scores.  Again, I'd forgotten what extended use he makes of the Dies Irae in the Romanza/Lament movement which does have the finest music of the work.  The Benedicite was equally uplifting and all rounded off by the beautiful balm of the Variants (I have in my own library of orchestral music Reginald Jacques' sets for the Holst St. Pauls and Brook Green Suites which gives me a disproportionate amount of pleasure!)
That CD has grown on me over the years and I too now enjoy the Tudor Portrait. The Benedicte and the moving Jacques Orchestra version of Dives and Lazarus was the icing on the cake.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 25, 2020, 02:04:07 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/9A6VhmW.jpg)

The one RVW work that I dislike, which is annoying as the setting for The Tunning of Elinor Rumming, The Running Horse public house is a short walk from where I live. The pub is unspoilt and has a plaque in memory of Elinor Rumming in the main bar. Perhaps one day, like RS, the penny will drop. If it does I will enjoy a celebration pint in the Running Horse and raise a glass to RVW.  :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 25, 2020, 02:14:40 AM
I have enjoyed Five Tudor Portraits ever since I acquired the Willcocks performance on LP as part of a box set of RVW choral works. Admittedly, I have listened to the Romanza separately more often than the complete work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 25, 2020, 04:55:01 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 25, 2020, 02:14:40 AM
I have enjoyed Five Tudor Portraits ever since I acquired the Willcocks performance on LP as part of a box set of RVW choral works. Admittedly, I have listened to the Romanza separately more often than the complete work.
For decades I never listened to it but now rather enjoy it, although I find the creaking humour of the 'Drunken Alice' section rather twee and tedious. However, I'm sure that they were rolling in the isles in 1603 or whenever.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 25, 2020, 04:55:33 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 25, 2020, 02:14:40 AM
I have enjoyed Five Tudor Portraits ever since I acquired the Willcocks performance on LP as part of a box set of RVW choral works. Admittedly, I have listened to the Romanza separately more often than the complete work.
For decades I never listened to it but now rather enjoy it, although I find the creaking humour of the 'Drunken Alice' section rather twee and tedious. However, I'm sure that they were rolling in the aisles in 1603 or whenever. Nice to hear that Lol drinks in the Running Horse, perhaps he could arrange a re-enactment of the 'Drunken Alice' section.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on October 25, 2020, 05:44:48 AM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/gqYAAOSwxHlcNCK1/s-l640.jpg)

One of my very first VW discs back in lp days. I do recall liking Dives and Lazarus from the get go, while the other two works took me a while to appreciate. I now have this program in a big VW box  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 25, 2020, 05:48:01 AM
Quote from: André on October 25, 2020, 05:44:48 AM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/gqYAAOSwxHlcNCK1/s-l640.jpg)

One of my very first VW discs back in lp days. I do recall liking Dives and Lazarus from the get go, while the other two works took me a while to appreciate. I now have this program in a big VW box  :)
Me too André. I especially like Benedicte and that fine performance of Dives and Lazarus, which I first came across on LP as well but coupled with Flos Campi and An Oxford Elegy. I remember asking my parents to get it for me one Christmas many moons ago.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 01, 2020, 09:42:01 AM
BBC Music Magazine this month (December issue) has VW on the front and a feature on The Lark Ascending and a cover disc featuring a very fine performance from the 1983 Proms with Iona Brown and Elgar Howarth conducting. Oddly enough I found myself much more moved by this work than I have for many years. I thought it a rather more moving performance than the one on Argo with Neville Marriner conducting. The accompanying CD has a 'bird' theme and includes Delius's Cuckoo which I could do without, but also his 'In a Summer Garden' which I like very much and Warlock's haunting 'The Curlew' ('The boughs have withered because I have told them my dreams'). Also, I was very pleased to see a feature on the long-lived Cyril Scott, 50 years after his death.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 01, 2020, 03:43:47 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 01, 2020, 09:42:01 AM
BBC Music Magazine this month (December issue) has VW on the front and a feature on The Lark Ascending and a cover disc featuring a very fine performance from the 1983 Proms with Iona Brown and Elgar Howarth conducting. Oddly enough I found myself much more moved by this work than I have for many years. I thought it a rather more moving performance than the one on Argo with Neville Marriner conducting. The accompanying CD has a 'bird' theme and includes Delius's Cuckoo which I could do without, but also his 'In a Summer Garden' which I like very much and Warlock's haunting 'The Curlew' ('The boughs have withered because I have told them my dreams'). Also, I was very pleased to see a feature on the long-lived Cyril Scott, 50 years after his death.
(//)

Not that it is important in the greater scheme - but someone on another RVW forum pointed out that this cover is a really crude mash-up of a well-known headshot of RVW pasted rather poorly onto a completely different body - why bother?! - there are so many fine portrait pictures of him.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 02, 2020, 01:44:17 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 01, 2020, 03:43:47 PM
Not that it is important in the greater scheme - but someone on another RVW forum pointed out that this cover is a really crude mash-up of a well-known headshot of RVW pasted rather poorly onto a completely different body - why bother?! - there are so many fine portrait pictures of him.....

How funny - and right I'm sure. He looks a bit too smart for VW!

I hope to play the new Hyperion CD later today.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 02, 2020, 01:57:53 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 01, 2020, 03:43:47 PM
Not that it is important in the greater scheme - but someone on another RVW forum pointed out that this cover is a really crude mash-up of a well-known headshot of RVW pasted rather poorly onto a completely different body - why bother?! - there are so many fine portrait pictures of him.....

The portrait part of the image is genuine but for some reason it has been stuck on to a 'rural' background. Even more inexplicable RVW's clothing has been colourized but not his face. Here is the unadulterated thing -

https://quotesgram.com/img/ralph-vaughan-williams-quotes/4989829/

Presumably from Life magazine.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on November 02, 2020, 02:05:36 AM
"brooding masterpiece" - brooding, really?  That is one of the last adjectives I would use for the Lark.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 02, 2020, 02:41:04 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 02, 2020, 02:05:36 AM
"brooding masterpiece" - brooding, really?  That is one of the last adjectives I would use for the Lark.

I have always thought the "Lark" a beautiful journey that goes nowhere - the music not bird.

I was sold by the cover and have listened to the CD. I enjoyed both the Delius pieces. Being live was a plus for the "Lark" and the late Iona Brown is superb, a worthy successor to Hugh Bean. The work I was most looking forward to was a disappointment. An advantage for the "Lark" is a polar opposite for "The Curlew" as the live recording is too close which sucks the inherent mystery and feeling of sadness out of the piece.

Perhaps only me, but I wish the BBC would cut out the applause after each work. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 02, 2020, 03:59:51 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 02, 2020, 02:05:36 AM
"brooding masterpiece" - brooding, really?  That is one of the last adjectives I would use for the Lark.
I agree!  I love the Lark and can easily envisage a bird climbing and soaring in flight...gliding in the updrafts, sometimes beating it's wings and eventually fading out of sight.   :)

I used to be able to buy individual issues of the BBC Music Magazine from a couple of bookstores, but so much has changed over the years.  I'll call one locally and see whether or not they are still carrying it.  I have also subscribed to it off and on in the past too.

PD

p.s.  Haven't heard the Curlew before now.  Irons, I see, is disappointed by the recording.  How do the others here feel about it?  Just curious.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 02, 2020, 04:09:20 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 02, 2020, 03:59:51 AM
I agree!  I love the Lark and can easily envisage a bird climbing and soaring in flight...gliding in the updrafts, sometimes beating it's wings and eventually fading out of sight.   :)

I used to be able to buy individual issues of the BBC Music Magazine from a couple of bookstores, but so much has changed over the years.  I'll call one locally and see whether or not they are still carrying it.  I have also subscribed to it off and on in the past too.

PD

p.s.  Haven't heard the Curlew before now.  Irons, I see, is disappointed by the recording.  How do the others here feel about it?  Just curious.

I enjoyed the Curlew very much and it is Warlock's masterpiece. I take Lol's point about the recording, although I still enjoyed the performance and the CD as a whole.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 02, 2020, 07:09:50 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 02, 2020, 03:59:51 AM
I agree!  I love the Lark and can easily envisage a bird climbing and soaring in flight...gliding in the updrafts, sometimes beating it's wings and eventually fading out of sight.   :)

I used to be able to buy individual issues of the BBC Music Magazine from a couple of bookstores, but so much has changed over the years.  I'll call one locally and see whether or not they are still carrying it.  I have also subscribed to it off and on in the past too.

PD

p.s.  Haven't heard the Curlew before now.  Irons, I see, is disappointed by the recording.  How do the others here feel about it?  Just curious.

PD, as you are duel nationality in thought and taste I guarantee you will love "The Curlew". Amazing piece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 02, 2020, 07:20:48 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 02, 2020, 07:09:50 AM
PD, as you are duel nationality in thought and taste I guarantee you will love "The Curlew". Amazing piece.
;D  :laugh:  :)Thank you Irons; I am truly honored!  And I will check out the work.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 02, 2020, 08:36:35 AM
Quote from: Biffo on November 02, 2020, 01:57:53 AM
The portrait part of the image is genuine but for some reason it has been stuck on to a 'rural' background. Even more inexplicable RVW's clothing has been colourized but not his face. Here is the unadulterated thing -

https://quotesgram.com/img/ralph-vaughan-williams-quotes/4989829/

Presumably from Life magazine.

At the risk of starting a debate worthy of angels dancing on pinheads..... in the original picture RVW's suit is quite different from the type of cloth to the style of lapels and even the 'softness' of the fabric so it is definitely NOT just a colourised version.  Whatever the truth - its a mess of a bodge of a mash up....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 03, 2020, 12:58:02 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 02, 2020, 08:36:35 AM
At the risk of starting a debate worthy of angels dancing on pinheads..... in the original picture RVW's suit is quite different from the type of cloth to the style of lapels and even the 'softness' of the fabric so it is definitely NOT just a colourised version.  Whatever the truth - its a mess of a bodge of a mash up....

Before posting I checked both images at least twice. On reading your posting I revisited them again and they are not the same. Doh!

I have numerous Larks, several Cuckoos and a Curlew - the disc wouldn't have tempted me even if I had been aware of it. I gave up on the magazine years ago - the only exception being an issue containing an interview with Sir Mark Elder which someone mentioned in this forum.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on November 03, 2020, 01:21:06 AM
Just been enjoying this version of Sinfornia Antartica by New Zealand Symphony Orchestra under James Judd. This is a DVD with well-chosen but predictable footage. I don't know if the music was available separately but it seems an unusual approach - an illustrated symphony, with echoes of Scott of the Antarctic.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 03, 2020, 09:50:55 AM
Quote from: Oates on November 03, 2020, 01:21:06 AM
Just been enjoying this version of Sinfornia Antartica by New Zealand Symphony Orchestra under James Judd. This is a DVD with well-chosen but predictable footage. I don't know if the music was available separately but it seems an unusual approach - an illustrated symphony, with echoes of Scott of the Antarctic.
Looks interesting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on November 03, 2020, 11:35:24 AM
Quote from: André on October 25, 2020, 05:44:48 AM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/gqYAAOSwxHlcNCK1/s-l640.jpg)

One of my very first VW discs back in lp days. I do recall liking Dives and Lazarus from the get go, while the other two works took me a while to appreciate. I now have this program in a big VW box  :)

"Serenade to music" was my introduction to RVW (EMI / Boult).
Hoping to find more "sweet harmony in immortal souls", I was slightly underwhelmed by the Tudor portraits. Benedicite however and Dives and Lazarus took me immediately into  higher spheres.
I found this lovely version of Benedicite on YT
https://youtu.be/b5st_NqgiW0

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 03, 2020, 12:19:11 PM
Quote from: Irons on November 02, 2020, 07:09:50 AM
PD, as you are duel nationality in thought and taste I guarantee you will love "The Curlew". Amazing piece.

+1 for The Curlew - probably Warlock's greatest work......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 03, 2020, 01:19:18 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 03, 2020, 12:19:11 PM
+1 for The Curlew - probably Warlock's greatest work......
Thank you RS, I will certainly check it out.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 03, 2020, 02:01:47 PM
Quote from: pjme on November 03, 2020, 11:35:24 AM
"Serenade to music" was my introduction to RVW (EMI / Boult).
Hoping to find more "sweet harmony in immortal souls", I was slightly underwhelmed by the Tudor portraits. Benedicite however and Dives and Lazarus took me immediately into  higher spheres.
I found this lovely version of Benedicite on YT
https://youtu.be/b5st_NqgiW0
Yes, it is a fine version of that inspiriting score which I first discovered on this marvellous LP when I was at university:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 08, 2020, 11:56:51 AM
Has anyone heard Brabbins' new recording of the 5th?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 08, 2020, 01:09:53 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 08, 2020, 11:56:51 AM
Has anyone heard Brabbins' new recording of the 5th?
I think that either Roasted Swan or Biffo has the CD. I bought it myself but decided to ask my wife to give it to me for Christmas and also asked my daughter to give me the Elder recording of 'Job' and the orchestral version of the Songs of Travel.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 08, 2020, 01:12:45 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 08, 2020, 01:09:53 PM
I think that either Roasted Swan or Biffo has the CD. I bought it myself but decided to ask my wife to give it to me for Christmas and also asked my daughter to give me the Elder recording of 'Job' and the orchestral version of the Songs of Travel.

Ah, so I'll have to wait until Christmas to get your opinion of it. Damn, that's just not fair! ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 08, 2020, 01:46:31 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 08, 2020, 01:12:45 PM
Ah, so I'll have to wait until Christmas to get your opinion of it. Damn, that's just not fair! ;D

Haha - I guess that I could steal it from the 'present cupboard' (especially as I put it there myself) . I recently bought the Ben-Haim and Vladigerov CDs, not to mention Kastalsky's 'Requiem' and the Finlandia Salmenhaara CD. So, I thought that I should pace my greedy acquisitions out in order to appreciate them individually more - a case of 'less is more'. So far I've greatly enjoyed symphonies 1-4 in the series.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 08, 2020, 02:54:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 08, 2020, 01:46:31 PM
Haha - I guess that I could steal it from the 'present cupboard' (especially as I put it there myself) . I recently bought the Ben-Haim and Vladigerov CDs, not to mention Kastalsky's 'Requiem' and the Finlandia Salmenhaara CD. So, I thought that I should pace my greedy acquisitions out in order to appreciate them individually more - a case of 'less is more'. So far I've greatly enjoyed symphonies 1-4 in the series.

Nah, I would just wait. You have the right idea. I normally don't ask anything for Christmas myself, but parents usually give me some money, but this year I don't even know what I'll buy as there haven't really been much in the way of new releases that have interested me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 09, 2020, 01:24:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 08, 2020, 02:54:01 PM
Nah, I would just wait. You have the right idea. I normally don't ask anything for Christmas myself, but parents usually give me some money, but this year I don't even know what I'll buy as there haven't really been much in the way of new releases that have interested me.
How about the Ben-Haim new release on Chandos John and the Vladigerov on Capriccio? Just some thoughts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 09, 2020, 02:30:58 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 08, 2020, 11:56:51 AM
Has anyone heard Brabbins' new recording of the 5th?

I bought it as a lossless download and think it is a very fine performance - the best yet from Brabbins. The 5th has been very well served on record with Boult, Barbirolli and Previn being my favourites - I find it hard to choose between them.

I will have to give Brabbins another listen soon; I am not so keen on the coupling, for completists only.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 04:50:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 08, 2020, 01:09:53 PM
....I bought it myself but decided to ask my wife to give it to me for Christmas and also asked my daughter to give me the Elder recording of 'Job' and the orchestral version of the Songs of Travel.
:laugh:  :) Has this happened often Jeffrey?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 09, 2020, 04:58:39 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 04:50:14 AM
:laugh:  :) Has this happened often Jeffrey?

PD

Yes, fairly often PD
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 05:08:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 09, 2020, 04:58:39 AM
Yes, fairly often PD
:)
I remember my mom complaining that it was impossible shopping for presents for my dad as he always went out (ahead of time) and purchased what he wanted rather than waiting!  ::)  Lists, Jeffrey, think "Lists" and "Patience".   ;)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 09, 2020, 06:32:06 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 05:08:35 AM
I remember my mom complaining that it was impossible shopping for presents for my dad as he always went out (ahead of time) and purchased what he wanted rather than waiting!  ::)  Lists, Jeffrey, think "Lists" and "Patience".   ;)

PD

My sympathies are with your dad PD.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 06:35:10 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 09, 2020, 06:32:06 AM
My sympathies are with your dad PD.  ;D
And mine with your wife and family!  ;)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 09, 2020, 08:44:07 AM
I wonder if Jeffrey wraps up presents to himself and then places them under the tree? :-\
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 08:49:03 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 09, 2020, 08:44:07 AM
I wonder if Jeffrey wraps up presents to himself and then places them under the tree? :-\
Or maybe he at leasts wraps them and *addresses them to himself before sticking them in that cupboard?   Then at least it's a surprise for his wife on Christmas Day?

"To my dearest, beloved Jeffrey, from your doting wife...."   :D ;D

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 09, 2020, 10:02:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 09, 2020, 01:24:31 AM
How about the Ben-Haim new release on Chandos John and the Vladigerov on Capriccio? Just some thoughts.

That's possible, but, honestly, I don't really see any new releases that have captured my interest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 09, 2020, 10:03:34 AM
Quote from: Biffo on November 09, 2020, 02:30:58 AM
I bought it as a lossless download and think it is a very fine performance - the best yet from Brabbins. The 5th has been very well served on record with Boult, Barbirolli and Previn being my favourites - I find it hard to choose between them.

I will have to give Brabbins another listen soon; I am not so keen on the coupling, for completists only.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm certainly not in dire need of any more Vaughan Williams but I might eventually get after Christmas.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 09, 2020, 10:26:58 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 09, 2020, 08:44:07 AM
I wonder if Jeffrey wraps up presents to himself and then places them under the tree? :-\

Haha - certainly not! My wife wraps them up  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 09, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 08:49:03 AM
Or maybe he at leasts wraps them and *addresses them to himself before sticking them in that cupboard?   Then at least it's a surprise for his wife on Christmas Day?

"To my dearest, beloved Jeffrey, from your doting wife...."   :D ;D

PD

That's an unlikely greeting - more likely 'Oh no! Not another bl__dy CD!'
;D

Also, like my mother used to, she only ever calls me Jeffrey (rather than Jeff) if she's cross with me (so, most of the time actually  8))
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 10:32:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 09, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
That's an unlikely greeting - more likely 'Oh no! Not another bl__dy CD!'
;D
:laugh:   ;)  Just teasing you of course!  I'm glad that you have a good sense of humorr Jeffrey.

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 09, 2020, 10:48:34 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 10:32:27 AM
:laugh:   ;)  Just teasing you of course!  I'm glad that you have a good sense of humorr Jeffrey.

Best wishes,

PD
:)

The teenage daughter of my CD nutter work colleague/friend played a wicked trick on him. A large parcel of CDS arrived for him at their house while he was out. So, she very carefully opened the parcel and removed all the CDs, replacing them with CDs from the shelves of his collection and carefully sealed up the package again. She then took great, malicious, pleasure at watching her dad's puzzled expression when he opened the parcel. Terribly wicked!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 12:59:41 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 09, 2020, 10:48:34 AM
:)

The teenage daughter of my CD nutter work colleague/friend played a wicked trick on him. A large parcel of CDS arrived for him at their house while he was out. So, she very carefully opened the parcel and removed all the CDs, replacing them with CDs from the shelves of his collection and carefully sealed up the package again. She then took great, malicious, pleasure at watching her dad's puzzled expression when he opened the parcel. Terribly wicked!
I wonder if she might have been thinking:  "Will he even realize that he already owns these CDs?"   ;)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 09, 2020, 11:39:32 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 12:59:41 PM
I wonder if she might have been thinking:  "Will he even realize that he already owns these CDs?"   ;)

PD

I am in the process of moving house so all my stashed CD's in the attic are coming down in box after box after box.  Oddly, when I see them all I do remember every one (which is kind of a good thing?) BUT at the same time it is a simply ludicrous number so I am resolving to cut my new purchases right down and actually try to more actively engage with the MANY less familiar discs/works I already own....  Hence things like this new Brabbins/RVW 5 will have to be ignored ..... at least for a bit.........!!!!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 10, 2020, 12:28:54 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 09, 2020, 11:39:32 PM
I am in the process of moving house so all my stashed CD's in the attic are coming down in box after box after box.  Oddly, when I see them all I do remember every one (which is kind of a good thing?) BUT at the same time it is a simply ludicrous number so I am resolving to cut my new purchases right down and actually try to more actively engage with the MANY less familiar discs/works I already own....  Hence things like this new Brabbins/RVW 5 will have to be ignored ..... at least for a bit.........!!!!!
Sounds like a good plan and good luck with the move. Sometimes 'less is more' but I don't always live up to my own precepts! However, I have, so far resisted the temptation to buy several discs on my radar, including the  Franz Schmidt symphonies on DGG, the John Wilson Respighi disc and the boxed set of Charles Gerhardt conducting Film Music.  0:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 10, 2020, 04:50:51 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 09, 2020, 11:39:32 PM
I am in the process of moving house so all my stashed CD's in the attic are coming down in box after box after box.  Oddly, when I see them all I do remember every one (which is kind of a good thing?) BUT at the same time it is a simply ludicrous number so I am resolving to cut my new purchases right down and actually try to more actively engage with the MANY less familiar discs/works I already own....  Hence things like this new Brabbins/RVW 5 will have to be ignored ..... at least for a bit.........!!!!!
I keep telling myself that I need to thin things out; it's going vvvvvveeeeeerrrrrrryyyyyyy sssssslllllloooooooooooowwwwwlllllyyyyy.  :( :-[

So, with this new move, will those CDs still be in boxes or will you build/buy shelving for them so that you can listen to them more easily RS?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 10, 2020, 10:25:19 AM
Speaking (elsewhere) about David McFall's bust of Vaughan Williams, I went back to the site and clicked on "Bronzes for sale".  Here:  http://davidmcfall.co.uk/page264.html

I was amazed to see many of McFall's works for sale!  And included in that, the famous Vaughan Williams' one!  Surely, these are replicas?  If i'm understanding their notation system correctly, he only had six of them made?  Or does that have nothing to do with it?  Possibly just the sixth bust that he created that year.  Are these miniatures?  Or did they have other ones cast after his death?  Anyone here know?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 10, 2020, 12:40:12 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 10, 2020, 04:50:51 AM
I keep telling myself that I need to thin things out; it's going vvvvvveeeeeerrrrrrryyyyyyy sssssslllllloooooooooooowwwwwlllllyyyyy.  :( :-[

So, with this new move, will those CDs still be in boxes or will you build/buy shelving for them so that you can listen to them more easily RS?

PD

Ahh now there's the dilemma!  My current plan is to leave them in the boxes (which are already catalogued in terms of contents) but stacked on shelving for easy access.  Currently they've been in the same boxes but stacked in teetering piles behind other teetering piles in my attic.  So at least in theory everything should be significantly more to hand than before.  It when the stacking or the double banking starts again that you know the hoarder's curse has struck...........
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 10, 2020, 12:44:55 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 10, 2020, 10:25:19 AM
Speaking (elsewhere) about David McFall's bust of Vaughan Williams, I went back to the site and clicked on "Bronzes for sale".  Here:  http://davidmcfall.co.uk/page264.html

I was amazed to see many of McFall's works for sale!  And included in that, the famous Vaughan Williams' one!  Surely, these are replicas?  If i'm understanding their notation system correctly, he only had six of them made?  Or does that have nothing to do with it?  Possibly just the sixth bust that he created that year.  Are these miniatures?  Or did they have other ones cast after his death?  Anyone here know?

PD

If I had a spare few thousand pounds I'd be tempted to buy it as I've loved that bronze head for decades. In fact I had some communications with David McFall's wife about it. She was keen for me to buy it but I could not justify the expense, although it would of course be an investment. So, I had to make do with the one I made myself when I was at school! I expect that the one for sale is probably one of the original six cast. I know that Mrs VW had one, so did the Royal College of Music and the National Gallery as well as VW's biographer Michael Kennedy. That leaves two, in my estimation, unaccounted for.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on November 11, 2020, 12:58:10 AM
David Hurwitz' new take on Job on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eintcAt6kUQ&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR3hb1hgnE0EFX2VJc5ULh-HoISisVU9sMAuMrlCuqYKvYi7HDLhBfENpXA
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 11, 2020, 02:01:14 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 11, 2020, 12:58:10 AM
David Hurwitz' new take on Job on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eintcAt6kUQ&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR3hb1hgnE0EFX2VJc5ULh-HoISisVU9sMAuMrlCuqYKvYi7HDLhBfENpXA

Thanks for posting Johan. I'll look forward to watching it later.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 11, 2020, 04:33:10 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 10, 2020, 12:40:12 PM
Ahh now there's the dilemma!  My current plan is to leave them in the boxes (which are already catalogued in terms of contents) but stacked on shelving for easy access.  Currently they've been in the same boxes but stacked in teetering piles behind other teetering piles in my attic.  So at least in theory everything should be significantly more to hand than before.  It when the stacking or the double banking starts again that you know the hoarder's curse has struck...........
;D or perhaps  :( ?   :-\

In any event, good luck with it!

PD
Quote from: vandermolen on November 10, 2020, 12:44:55 PM
If I had a spare few thousand pounds I'd be tempted to buy it as I've loved that bronze head for decades. In fact I had some communications with David McFall's wife about it. She was keen for me to buy it but I could not justify the expense, although it would of course be an investment. So, I had to make do with the one I made myself when I was at school! I expect that the one for sale is probably one of the original six cast. I know that Mrs VW had one, so did the Royal College of Music and the National Gallery as well as VW's biographer Michael Kennedy. That leaves two, in my estimation, unaccounted for.
You would have thought that all of the six would have been 'scooped up' quite quickly?  And yeah, like you, I would love to have one!  I noticed that McFall had done a couple of other works of Vaughan Williams too.  So, how did yours come out Jeffrey?  And do you still have it?

PD

p.s.  I love his ones of animals too; that pig is quite cute!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 11, 2020, 09:13:57 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 11, 2020, 04:33:10 AM
  ;D or perhaps  :( ?   :-\

In any event, good luck with it!

PDYou would have thought that all of the six would have been 'scooped up' quite quickly?  And yeah, like you, I would love to have one!  I noticed that McFall had done a couple of other works of Vaughan Williams too.  So, how did yours come out Jeffrey?  And do you still have it?

PD

p.s.  I love his ones of animals too; that pig is quite cute!  ;D

I found it still in its original clay in the attic (I remember that my Art teacher painted it with hardener). However, it would have fallen to bits sooner or later as it is not far off 50 years old. So, when I retired from full-time teaching in 2015 for once in my life I had a bit of money from the Teacher's Pension so, I found someone who could cast it in 'cold-cast bronze' (like fibre-glass) and now it is in the living room - a gift from my 17 year old self  :)
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 11, 2020, 09:28:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 11, 2020, 09:13:57 AM
I found it still in its original clay in the attic (I remember that my Art teacher painted it with hardener). However, it would have fallen to bits sooner or later as it is not far off 50 years old. So, when I retired from full-time teaching in 2015 for once in my life I had a bit of money from the Teacher's Pension so, I found someone who could cast it in 'cold-cast bronze' (like fibre-glass) and now it is in the living room - a gift from my 17 year old self  :)
(//)

Congratulations - that looks fantastic!  What a wonderful gift to yourself.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 11, 2020, 09:44:12 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 11, 2020, 09:28:50 AM
Congratulations - that looks fantastic!  What a wonderful gift to yourself.

Thank you so much RS  :)

I remember making it and much as I loved the David McFall Head, I actually used a photo of Ralph from a photo of him and Ursula at Hannover Terrace as an inspiration. The photo is in the James Day biography of VW in the 'Great Composer' series. I can tell that as the page still has dried clay on it! The mould-maker did a very good job of preserving it and I was very happy with the final result.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on November 11, 2020, 10:22:56 AM
So you should be, it is brilliant !
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 11, 2020, 10:39:45 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on November 11, 2020, 10:22:56 AM
So you should be, it is brilliant !

Thank you very much Olivier for the kind comment. I have to say that I'm proud that I did that as a 17/18 year old. I only did Art as an extra-curricular subject at school as I had to focus much of my time on re-taking all the exams that I had failed! The Art Master was very kind and supportive and when I finished the VW Head he got it displayed in a Building Society window in Fleet Street near the school. It is weird going back in my mind to 1972/73 like this and I hope that I don't come across as more vain that usual. My wife and daughter think that I'm a terrible 'show off' - but I am proud of that VW head and it was so exciting when the parcel containing the cold-cast bronze head arrived here from the casting studio a couple of years ago - the whole experience was a bit surreal.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on November 11, 2020, 12:01:46 PM
Very impressive Jeffrey !  :o And yes, facing your creation from all those years ago must have felt like it was from a previous life !
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 11, 2020, 09:19:51 PM
Quote from: André on November 11, 2020, 12:01:46 PM
Very impressive Jeffrey !  :o And yes, facing your creation from all those years ago must have felt like it was from a previous life !

Thank you André - that's a good way of describing it, especially as I had not seen it for such a long time.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 11, 2020, 11:39:51 PM
Quote from: André on November 11, 2020, 12:01:46 PM
Very impressive Jeffrey !  :o And yes, facing your creation from all those years ago must have felt like it was from a previous life !

+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 11, 2020, 11:53:06 PM
Quote from: Irons on November 11, 2020, 11:39:51 PM
+1
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 03:58:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 11, 2020, 09:13:57 AM
I found it still in its original clay in the attic (I remember that my Art teacher painted it with hardener). However, it would have fallen to bits sooner or later as it is not far off 50 years old. So, when I retired from full-time teaching in 2015 for once in my life I had a bit of money from the Teacher's Pension so, I found someone who could cast it in 'cold-cast bronze' (like fibre-glass) and now it is in the living room - a gift from my 17 year old self  :)
(//)
Wow!  What a great job Jeffrey! Now that you're semi-retired, have you spent any time pursuing your obvious artistic talents?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2020, 10:13:54 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 03:58:54 AM
Wow!  What a great job Jeffrey! Now that you're semi-retired, have you spent any time pursuing your obvious artistic talents?

PD

Thank you PD. In answer to your question, not as much as I would like to. I'm kept fairly busy with my teaching and counselling work, as well as with the onerous domestic chores, not to mention reading the newspaper, playing with the cat and listening to my CDs  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 10:37:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 12, 2020, 10:13:54 AM
Thank you PD. In answer to your question, not as much as I would like to. I'm kept fairly busy with my teaching and counselling work, as well as with the onerous domestic chores, not to mention reading the newspaper, playing with the cat and listening to my CDs  ;D
You've the order a bit off there Jeffrey.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2020, 10:41:40 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 10:37:21 AM
You've the order a bit off there Jeffrey.  :D

Yes, that's quite true PD! He is the boss in this family!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 10:47:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 12, 2020, 10:41:40 AM
Yes, that's quite true PD! He is the boss in this family!
Does this happen often?

(https://files.brightside.me/files/news/part_2/29105/400905-the-reality-of-owning-a-cat-14__700-650-b3aa337612-1479476483.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2020, 11:09:25 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 10:47:57 AM
Does this happen often?

(https://files.brightside.me/files/news/part_2/29105/400905-the-reality-of-owning-a-cat-14__700-650-b3aa337612-1479476483.jpg)

Lovely cartoon.

Yes, and he contributes lines like 'xzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx' when I'm trying to type a document and he stands right on the keyboard. I once had a cat who jumped on my turntable and went whizzing round with the LP.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2020, 11:38:23 AM
I'm feeling a bit guilty about (sort-of) derailing this thread to talk about myself (not that this has ever been a great problem for me  8)) so, I thought that I'd just like to say how much I am looking forward to receiving these two discs, from my nearest and dearest, for Christmas:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 11:51:15 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 12, 2020, 11:38:23 AM
I'm feeling a bit guilty about (sort-of) derailing this thread to talk about myself (not that this has ever been a great problem for me  8)) so, I thought that I'd just like to say how much I am looking forward to receiving these two discs, from my nearest and dearest, for Christmas:
Not to worry...from my end anyway.   :)

Speaking of Vaughan Williams and CDs, here's a thought:  1) add up about how much you spend say every three months on CDs and/or vinyl, 2) set aside half to two-thirds of that, and I expect you could could make a deposit on that Vaughan Williams bust in way less time than you would think!  ;)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2020, 11:55:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 08, 2020, 01:12:45 PM
Ah, so I'll have to wait until Christmas to get your opinion of it. Damn, that's just not fair! ;D

You've a tough row to hoe, friend 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2020, 11:57:28 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 09, 2020, 04:50:14 AM
:laugh:  :) Has this happened often Jeffrey?

PD

Bring that hammer DOWN, PD!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Iota on November 12, 2020, 01:33:36 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 11, 2020, 09:13:57 AM
I found it still in its original clay in the attic (I remember that my Art teacher painted it with hardener). However, it would have fallen to bits sooner or later as it is not far off 50 years old. So, when I retired from full-time teaching in 2015 for once in my life I had a bit of money from the Teacher's Pension so, I found someone who could cast it in 'cold-cast bronze' (like fibre-glass) and now it is in the living room - a gift from my 17 year old self  :)
(//)

Wow, very impressive, vandermolen, bravo!

To me, the David McFall bust gives him the appearance of some august Roman emperor. I'm not sure I ever quite envision him like that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2020, 01:45:05 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 12, 2020, 11:55:56 AM
You've a tough row to hoe, friend 8)

;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 11:51:15 AM
Not to worry...from my end anyway.   :)

Speaking of Vaughan Williams and CDs, here's a thought:  1) add up about how much you spend say every three months on CDs and/or vinyl, 2) set aside half to two-thirds of that, and I expect you could could make a deposit on that Vaughan Williams bust in way less time than you would think!  ;)

PD
And, I should add as it might have been confusing--which I didn't mean it to be, multiply that by four and save that amount....or, if you spend more during certain times of the year, then go by that figure.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 13, 2020, 10:05:19 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 11:51:15 AM
Not to worry...from my end anyway.   :)

Speaking of Vaughan Williams and CDs, here's a thought:  1) add up about how much you spend say every three months on CDs and/or vinyl, 2) set aside half to two-thirds of that, and I expect you could could make a deposit on that Vaughan Williams bust in way less time than you would think!  ;)

PD

Depressingly, you're probably right PD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 13, 2020, 10:07:32 AM
Quote from: Iota on November 12, 2020, 01:33:36 PM
Wow, very impressive, vandermolen, bravo!

To me, the David McFall bust gives him the appearance of some august Roman emperor. I'm not sure I ever quite envision him like that.

Thank you! Michael Kennedy, VW's friend and biographer thought is a good likeness (unlike the Epstein which he thought told us nothing about the composer). I agree that the McFall bust is far superior. I'll try to find some images.

OK - images of VW busts by McFall (top two) and Epstein and VW with Epstein. VW and Epstein got on well and VW invited Epstein to see him conduct Bach's 'St Matthew Passion'. In Epstein's biography there is a nice account of his sessions with VW. Two great artists although, much as I like Epstein's work I don't think much of his head of Vaughan Williams:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 13, 2020, 11:03:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 13, 2020, 10:07:32 AM
Thank you! Michael Kennedy, VW's friend and biographer thought is a good likeness (unlike the Epstein which he thought told us nothing about the composer). I agree that the McFall bust is far superior. I'll try to find some images.

OK - images of VW busts by McFall (top two) and Epstein and VW with Epstein. VW and Epstein got on well and VW invited Epstein to see him conduct Bach's 'St Matthew Passion'. In Epstein's biography there is a nice account of his sessions with VW. Two great artists although, much as I like Epstein's work I don't think much of his head of Vaughan Williams:
One of these two would make a fine statue:

(https://robertarood.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/rvwcat.jpg)

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ugAe2WYc-ec/VaPsKHa1FpI/AAAAAAAAANk/qFKLNTlaWj0/s1600/vaughan%2Bwilliams%2Bwith%2Bcat.jpg)

PD

EDIT:  I had typed some comments earlier but missed copying them when I was having trouble posting earlier.  Like you, Jeffrey, and Iota, the Epstein one (to me anyway) doesn't look much like VW.  The only thing that I have mixed feelings about re the McFall ones, is that Vaughan Williams is looking down (which makes sense as at the time he was busy composing).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Iota on November 13, 2020, 01:52:33 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 13, 2020, 10:07:32 AM
Thank you! Michael Kennedy, VW's friend and biographer thought is a good likeness (unlike the Epstein which he thought told us nothing about the composer). I agree that the McFall bust is far superior. I'll try to find some images.

OK - images of VW busts by McFall (top two) and Epstein and VW with Epstein. VW and Epstein got on well and VW invited Epstein to see him conduct Bach's 'St Matthew Passion'. In Epstein's biography there is a nice account of his sessions with VW. Two great artists although, much as I like Epstein's work I don't think much of his head of Vaughan Williams:

Ah thanks, yes those McFall busts are indeed striking. VW seems particularly 'present' in the top one in that photo, to my eyes anyway.

I completely agree about the Epstein, I'd never have recognised VW from it without the context. And it doesn't even seem to highlight or abstract some aspect of him, it just seems like an entirely different person.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 14, 2020, 12:47:30 AM
His mouth is a recognisable feature of RVW. Get that right and you are nearly there.

I think - and I'm not kidding! The statue below has the "mouth" as does McFall. Epstein misses it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on November 14, 2020, 02:44:56 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 12, 2020, 11:51:15 AM
Speaking of Vaughan Williams and CDs, here's a thought:  1) add up about how much you spend say every three months on CDs and/or vinyl, 2) set aside half to two-thirds of that, and I expect you could could make a deposit on that Vaughan Williams bust in way less time than you would think!  ;)

Or at least you could afford some special-de-luxe cat food.    Prrrr?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 14, 2020, 03:53:27 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 14, 2020, 12:47:30 AM
His mouth is a recognisable feature of RVW. Get that right and you are nearly there.

I think - and I'm not kidding! The statue below has the "mouth" as does McFall. Epstein misses it.
Irons,

You know, no kidding but I was thinking the exact same thing regarding his mouth!  ;D

Quote from: aukhawk on November 14, 2020, 02:44:56 AM
Or at least you could afford some special-de-luxe cat food.    Prrrr?
Careful Aukhawk, or Jeffrey will start glaring at his cat and threaten to give him away!  ;)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 14, 2020, 09:08:12 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 13, 2020, 11:03:27 AM
One of these two would make a fine statue:

(https://robertarood.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/rvwcat.jpg)

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ugAe2WYc-ec/VaPsKHa1FpI/AAAAAAAAANk/qFKLNTlaWj0/s1600/vaughan%2Bwilliams%2Bwith%2Bcat.jpg)

PD

EDIT:  I had typed some comments earlier but missed copying them when I was having trouble posting earlier.  Like you, Jeffrey, and Iota, the Epstein one (to me anyway) doesn't look much like VW.  The only thing that I have mixed feelings about re the McFall ones, is that Vaughan Williams is looking down (which makes sense as at the time he was busy composing).
Yes, VW with Foxy would make a great sculpture. Foxy was apparently his favourite cat and he does indeed look like a fox.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 14, 2020, 09:19:38 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 14, 2020, 12:47:30 AM
His mouth is a recognisable feature of RVW. Get that right and you are nearly there.

I think - and I'm not kidding! The statue below has the "mouth" as does McFall. Epstein misses it.

Haha. Thank you very much Lol. Your kind comment means a lot to me. I have to agree that the vandermolen head is a better likeness than the Epstein.  ;D
All I can say is that when I made the head I had just become obsessed with VW and his music and spent hour after hour during my lunch time in the school's Art department making that head. It was genuinely a true labour of love. Epstein is a truly great sculptor an one of my favourites (his 'Lazarus', Head of Einstein or 'St Michael and the Devil' at Coventry Cathedral for example) but the head of VW was, in my opinion, not his finest hour.
There is a statue of VW in Dorking and on the Chelsea Embankment, both places where he lived. I don't think that either are that brilliant. They should have commissioned me!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 14, 2020, 09:24:36 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 14, 2020, 02:44:56 AM
Or at least you could afford some special-de-luxe cat food.    Prrrr?
Excellent point!
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 14, 2020, 03:31:49 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 14, 2020, 09:19:38 AM
Haha. Thank you very much Lol. Your kind comment means a lot to me. I have to agree that the vandermolen head is a better likeness than the Epstein.  ;D
All I can say is that when I made the head I had just become obsessed with VW and his music and spent hour after hour during my lunch time in the school's Art department making that head. It was genuinely a true labour of love. Epstein is a truly great sculptor an one of my favourites (his 'Lazarus', Head of Einstein or 'St Michael and the Devil' at Coventry Cathedral for example) but the head of VW was, in my opinion, not his finest hour.
There is a statue of VW in Dorking and on the Chelsea Embankment, both places where he lived. I don't think that either are that brilliant. They should have commissioned me!  ;D
Agreed re the busts not being the best...sorry to say that as I'm sure that the artists tried.   :(  Perhaps send them a photo of yours?  Just a thought!  ;)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 15, 2020, 01:03:55 AM
Here's the one outside the Library in Dorking and the postage stamp issued to commemorate the Vaughan Williams centenary in 1972:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on November 15, 2020, 05:32:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 15, 2020, 01:03:55 AM
Here's the one outside the Library in Dorking and the postage stamp issued to commemorate the Vaughan Williams centenary in 1972:
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=68719;image)

Why is VW made to look like the Creature from the Black Lagoon ?  ;D

(https://www.monstersinmotion.com/cart/images/05CEB02_Creature_Yagher_01.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 15, 2020, 06:08:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 14, 2020, 09:19:38 AM
Haha. Thank you very much Lol. Your kind comment means a lot to me. I have to agree that the vandermolen head is a better likeness than the Epstein.  ;D
All I can say is that when I made the head I had just become obsessed with VW and his music and spent hour after hour during my lunch time in the school's Art department making that head. It was genuinely a true labour of love. Epstein is a truly great sculptor an one of my favourites (his 'Lazarus', Head of Einstein or 'St Michael and the Devil' at Coventry Cathedral for example) but the head of VW was, in my opinion, not his finest hour.
There is a statue of VW in Dorking and on the Chelsea Embankment, both places where he lived. I don't think that either are that brilliant. They should have commissioned me!  ;D

If asked to guess I would have said the subject was the actor Robert Hardy, don't think it looks like RVW at any stage in his life.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on November 16, 2020, 03:51:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 15, 2020, 01:03:55 AM
Here's the one outside the Library in Dorking and the postage stamp issued to commemorate the Vaughan Williams centenary in 1972:

I think that's good statue - would I recognise it was RVW if I saw if without knowing? Maybe, but a more Falstaffian frame might be more true to life! That statue is of a very trim man unless its just a flattering camera angle.   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 16, 2020, 08:18:53 AM
Quote from: Oates on November 16, 2020, 03:51:40 AM
I think that's good statue - would I recognise it was RVW if I saw if without knowing? Maybe, but a more Falstaffian frame might be more true to life! That statue is of a very trim man unless its just a flattering camera angle.

The statue was holding a baton but local knob-heads (they are everywhere, even Dorking) pinched it. Every year the Leith Hill Music Festival in Vaughan Williams' honour is held at Dorking Halls. An excellent venue which I sincerely hope survives these troubled times. Fine as it is the RVW statue is not the most famous in Dorking. That honour goes to a chicken! A huge statue on the roundabout leading into the High Street a stone's throw from RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 16, 2020, 11:38:14 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 16, 2020, 08:18:53 AM
The statue was holding a baton but local knob-heads (they are everywhere, even Dorking) pinched it. Every year the Leith Hill Music Festival in Vaughan Williams' honour is held at Dorking Halls. An excellent venue which I sincerely hope survives these troubled times. Fine as it is the RVW statue is not the most famous in Dorking. That honour goes to a chicken! A huge statue on the roundabout leading into the High Street a stone's throw from RVW.

Yes, it looks too slim for VW. Pity about the baton. The same thing happened to Conan-Doyle's hat (he lived locally). It's been replaced now. I like the giant chicken:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 16, 2020, 02:02:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 16, 2020, 11:38:14 AM
Yes, it looks too slim for VW. Pity about the baton. The same thing happened to Conan-Doyle's hat (he lived locally). It's been replaced now. I like the giant chicken:
(//)
So sad to hear stories of vandalism like these.  I remember hearing about The Little Mermaid being decapitated at least twice.   :( >:( :'(  And probably like her head, the hat and baton ended up either in the sea or a river somewhere...or abandoned elsewhere.   :(

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 16, 2020, 05:52:07 PM
This is interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/v/imJkrjpkrgg&fbclid=IwAR1WGXhifZAj96uJO9

Of course, as a Sibelian, this made me grin from ear to ear. Well said, Ralph!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 16, 2020, 09:30:01 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 16, 2020, 05:52:07 PM
This is interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/v/imJkrjpkrgg&fbclid=IwAR1WGXhifZAj96uJO9

Of course, as a Sibelian, this made me grin from ear to ear. Well said, Ralph!
+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 16, 2020, 11:57:00 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 16, 2020, 02:02:12 PM
So sad to hear stories of vandalism like these.  I remember hearing about The Little Mermaid being decapitated at least twice.   :( >:( :'(  And probably like her head, the hat and baton ended up either in the sea or a river somewhere...or abandoned elsewhere.   :(

PD

Going off on a tangent somewhat, P. Over here statues have entered the political arena. Certain factions think it great idea to get their point across by defacing statues or actually pulling them down, as happened in Bristol. Have you had this in the US?
   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 17, 2020, 04:18:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 16, 2020, 09:30:01 PM
+1
+1

And Mirror Image,

Thank you so much for posting that clip!  And, if I might add, really cool to hear Vaughan Williams himself speaking!  8) ;D

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 17, 2020, 05:17:06 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 16, 2020, 11:57:00 PM
Going off on a tangent somewhat, P. Over here statues have entered the political arena. Certain factions think it great idea to get their point across by defacing statues or actually pulling them down, as happened in Bristol. Have you had this in the US?

Yes, Irons.  You might find these stories to be of interest; I certainly did and think that they bring up some great questions that need to be addressed.  I recall hearing the first one over the radio this summer.  The second one, I just found.  Trying not to go off-topic here, but there is so much that we need to talk about and figure out how to address in terms of our history--how to make it inclusive, truthful, transparent, and educational for starters.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/15/876962140/times-are-changing-as-tolerance-weakens-for-confederate-monuments

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/23/881992636/should-statues-of-historic-figures-with-complicated-pasts-be-taken-down

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Augustus on November 17, 2020, 06:35:28 AM
I've just got the new Brabbins Hyperion disc of Symphony 5 and I have to say that it goes right to the top of my pile of versions for this symphony.  Each movement is exactly as I think it should go and the recorded sound is simply ravishing.  I know we've had a good number of excellent version in the last few years but I really do feel this is very much worth the attention of any lover of this symphony.  My only gripe is that there is not enough of a gap between the end of the symphony at the start of the Pilgrim's Progress pieces.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 17, 2020, 07:11:49 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 17, 2020, 05:17:06 AM
Yes, Irons.  You might find these stories to be of interest; I certainly did and think that they bring up some great questions that need to be addressed.  I recall hearing the first one over the radio this summer.  The second one, I just found.  Trying not to go off-topic here, but there is so much that we need to talk about and figure out how to address in terms of our history--how to make it inclusive, truthful, transparent, and educational for starters.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/15/876962140/times-are-changing-as-tolerance-weakens-for-confederate-monuments

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/23/881992636/should-statues-of-historic-figures-with-complicated-pasts-be-taken-down

Best wishes,

PD

Thanks P. I read your links, and yes the same debate as here. History is what it says on the tin, it is in the past and you are not going to change it by pulling down a statue. We have a young black boxer, Daniel Dubois, who mark my words is a future world heavyweight champion. He was asked in an interview "do black lives matter" he replied "all lives matter".
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 17, 2020, 07:54:28 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 16, 2020, 11:57:00 PM
Going off on a tangent somewhat, P. Over here statues have entered the political arena. Certain factions think it great idea to get their point across by defacing statues or actually pulling them down, as happened in Bristol. Have you had this in the US?


I've been studying the Roberts Jones Churchill statue with my 6th Form Art History students. We have had some interestingly stormy discussions about Churchill and racism etc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2020, 09:51:43 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 17, 2020, 04:18:21 AM
+1

And Mirror Image,

Thank you so much for posting that clip!  And, if I might add, really cool to here Vaughan Williams himself speaking!  8) ;D

PD

My pleasure, PD. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Daverz on November 17, 2020, 02:11:45 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 17, 2020, 07:54:28 AM
I've been studying the Roberts Jones Churchill statue with my 6th Form Art History students. We have had some interestingly stormy discussions about Churchill and racism etc.

I'm not for defacing property, but the Churchill hagiography industry has had way too long of a run without pushback.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 17, 2020, 11:15:49 PM
Quote from: Daverz on November 17, 2020, 02:11:45 PM
I'm not for defacing property, but the Churchill hagiography industry has had way too long of a run without pushback.

Yes, although I'm an admirer (for his wartime leadership and warnings about Hitler, I hasten to add) we need a balanced view. I taught a whole A Level course on Churchill in my last school and we looked at all aspects of his life and career, so I like to think that my students ended up with a balanced view. Back on subject there is a photo of the elderly VW being awarded an Honorary doctorate by Churchill at the University of Bristol.

I couldn't find the photo online but here is an account from Bristol University's Archive:
https://archives.bristol.ac.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=DM270
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 17, 2020, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 17, 2020, 11:15:49 PM
Yes, although I'm an admirer (for his wartime leadership and warnings about Hitler, I hasten to add) we need a balanced view. I taught a whole A Level course on Churchill in my last school and we looked at all aspects of his life and career, so I like to think that my students ended up with a balanced view. Back on subject there is a photo of the elderly VW being awarded an Honorary doctorate by Churchill at the University of Bristol.

I couldn't find the photo online but here is an account from Bristol University's Archive:
https://archives.bristol.ac.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=DM270

That was some event, Jeffrey. Sir Stafford Cripps was also in attendance I noted.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2020, 12:05:20 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 17, 2020, 11:59:59 PM
That was some event, Jeffrey. Sir Stafford Cripps was also in attendance I noted.
Oh, I hadn't noticed that Lol. Yes indeed!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 18, 2020, 04:52:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 17, 2020, 11:15:49 PM
Yes, although I'm an admirer (for his wartime leadership and warnings about Hitler, I hasten to add) we need a balanced view. I taught a whole A Level course on Churchill in my last school and we looked at all aspects of his life and career, so I like to think that my students ended up with a balanced view. Back on subject there is a photo of the elderly VW being awarded an Honorary doctorate by Churchill at the University of Bristol.

I couldn't find the photo online but here is an account from Bristol University's Archive:
https://archives.bristol.ac.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=DM270
Yeah, Jeffrey!  :)

Alas, I can't see the photos in your link.  Is there something else that I need to click on?  I think that I saw an error message too when I tried viewing them.   :(

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2020, 09:05:56 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 18, 2020, 04:52:36 AM
Yeah, Jeffrey!  :)

Alas, I can't see the photos in your link.  Is there something else that I need to click on?  I think that I saw an error message too when I tried viewing them.   :(

PD

Hi PD there were no photos on the link, just a  short extract about the degree ceremony in Bristol in 1951.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 18, 2020, 09:09:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2020, 09:05:56 AM
Hi PD there were no photos on the link, just a  short extract about the degree ceremony in Bristol in 1951.
Thanks, that's what I get for not reading carefully enough!  ::)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 22, 2020, 01:46:21 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Yesterday I listened to the Pearl CD of Vaughan Williams conducting his own 'Dona Nobis Pacem'. It was the first broadcast from 1936 and I found it deeply moving, more-so than the more modern recordings, good as they are. It's a pity that VW did not record more of his own music. Of the major works there is only DNP and symphonies 4 and 5. I have been fortunate to see this work live on at least two occasions, most recently at the 2018 Proms at a concert to commemorate the 100th Anniversary of the end of World War One:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 22, 2020, 04:49:16 AM
Albion Records have a project to record all of RVW's English folk song arrangements in four albums. I received Volume 1 yesterday.

I wasn't sure what to expect but was pleasantly surprised by Folk Songs from Sussex (1912). They don't really sound like folk songs and it made me wonder how much 'arranging' had been done. They brought to mind Mahler's Wunderhorn songs in their sophistication, not that RVW would thank me for that. 

Six English Folk Songs (1933) and Sea Songs (1919) were more like I expected and a lot folkier.

I have a disc from EMI - Robert Tear and others  - which I will have to revisit. As well as English songs and carols it contains French songs and songs from Newfoundland.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 22, 2020, 07:11:03 AM
Quote from: Biffo on November 22, 2020, 04:49:16 AM
Albion Records have a project to record all of RVW's English folk song arrangements in four albums. I received Volume 1 yesterday.

I wasn't sure what to expect but was pleasantly surprised by Folk Songs from Sussex (1912). They don't really sound like folk songs and it made me wonder how much 'arranging' had been done. They brought to mind Mahler's Wunderhorn songs in their sophistication, not that RVW would thank me for that. 

Six English Folk Songs (1933) and Sea Songs (1919) were more like I expected and a lot folkier.

I have a disc from EMI - Robert Tear and others  - which I will have to revisit. As well as English songs and carols it contains French songs and songs from Newfoundland.

You might like the Fantasia on Folk Songs from Sussex on this unusual and interesting CD. Obviously the Sussex Folk Songs have a special appeal to me as a resident of Sussex. As does the London Symphony, for someone who grew up in Central London. Sadly I have never been to the Antarctic  ;D

(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 22, 2020, 08:20:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 22, 2020, 07:11:03 AM
You might like the Fantasia on Folk Songs from Sussex on this unusual and interesting CD. Obviously the Sussex Folk Songs have a special appeal to me as a resident of Sussex. As does the London Symphony, for someone who grew up in Central London. Sadly I have never been to the Antarctic  ;D

(//)
You can--maybe not right now, but....https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica

;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 22, 2020, 08:25:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 22, 2020, 07:11:03 AM
You might like the Fantasia on Folk Songs from Sussex on this unusual and interesting CD. Obviously the Sussex Folk Songs have a special appeal to me as a resident of Sussex. As does the London Symphony, for someone who grew up in Central London. Sadly I have never been to the Antarctic  ;D

(//)

Thanks, that is an unusual collection. I have some of the pieces on it but not the 'Sussex' fantasia though it rings a bell. Will have to check out the disc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 22, 2020, 09:56:04 AM
Quote from: Biffo on November 22, 2020, 08:25:56 AM
Thanks, that is an unusual collection. I have some of the pieces on it but not the 'Sussex' fantasia though it rings a bell. Will have to check out the disc.

This collection of "Modern Times" recordings is uniformly excellent with the RVW disc no exception!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 23, 2020, 09:38:32 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 22, 2020, 08:20:07 AM
You can--maybe not right now, but....https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica

;D

Lovely idea but probably too expensive and wife likes hot climates ( >:D ::))
However, I'd love to see the Northern Lights in Iceland one day/
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 23, 2020, 10:36:56 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 22, 2020, 09:56:04 AM
This collection of "Modern Times" recordings is uniformly excellent with the RVW disc no exception!
+1 listening to it now:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 23, 2020, 11:57:13 AM
Quote from: Christo on November 11, 2020, 12:58:10 AM
David Hurwitz' new take on Job on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eintcAt6kUQ&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR3hb1hgnE0EFX2VJc5ULh-HoISisVU9sMAuMrlCuqYKvYi7HDLhBfENpXA

Just watched it (and the Madetoja one) with much pleasure - thanks for posting it. I'm glad that he thinks highly of the Barry Wordsworth recording on Alto.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 11, 2020, 09:13:01 AM
Just received this - very cheaply and second-hand.
It is a most beautiful concert:
Songs
On Wenlock Edge
5 Mystical Songs
Dirge for Fidele
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Ideal late-night listening with a glass of (red) wine.
There is something even more moving and intimate about the chamber music versions of these works - beautifully performed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Jo498 on December 11, 2020, 12:11:34 PM
Note that this recording has been re-issued by Naxos (as have some or all of that English song series). The cover is not as nice but it is probably more easily available and I am not sure if old Collins disc might sometimes have a bronzing problem. Except for this minor caveat, I'd also recommend it. It would probably be my third favorite "romantic/modern" English song disc after Terfel's "Vagabond" anthology and some recording of Britten's Serenade. (For "all time" I'd have to smuggle at least two Elizabethan Lute song anthologies in.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2020, 08:49:57 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 11, 2020, 12:11:34 PM
Note that this recording has been re-issued by Naxos (as have some or all of that English song series). The cover is not as nice but it is probably more easily available and I am not sure if old Collins disc might sometimes have a bronzing problem. Except for this minor caveat, I'd also recommend it. It would probably be my third favorite "romantic/modern" English song disc after Terfel's "Vagabond" anthology and some recording of Britten's Serenade. (For "all time" I'd have to smuggle at least two Elizabethan Lute song anthologies in.)
Thanks for the information. I just picked the same info up from my colleague at Alto, who mentioned the Naxos connection when I suggested the VW CD as a possible future Alto release. So far, no problems with the Collins recording!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2020, 06:26:45 PM
Here's an interesting video for you, Jeffrey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIaepn3758

Fair disclosure: You're going to be shaking your head 'no' throughout much of this video. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 18, 2020, 10:47:57 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 18, 2020, 06:26:45 PM
Here's an interesting video for you, Jeffrey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIaepn3758

Fair disclosure: You're going to be shaking your head 'no' throughout much of this video. ;)

No video shows up John. 'Adobe Flash Player is Blocked'.

I remember the nice Bruckner picture from Hans-Hubert Schoenzeler's excellent short biography of the composer. Schoenzeler also conducted some Rubbra recordings.
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 19, 2020, 03:37:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 18, 2020, 10:47:57 PM
No video shows up John. 'Adobe Flash Player is Blocked'.

I remember the nice Bruckner picture from Hans-Hubert Schoenzeler's excellent short biography of the composer. Schoenzeler also conducted some Rubbra recordings.
(//)
Interesting Jeffrey as I just watched it.  I know that I need to remove my Adobe Flash soon.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 06:35:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 18, 2020, 10:47:57 PM
No video shows up John. 'Adobe Flash Player is Blocked'.

I remember the nice Bruckner picture from Hans-Hubert Schoenzeler's excellent short biography of the composer. Schoenzeler also conducted some Rubbra recordings.
(//)

Interesting. The video shows up for me. It's Hurwitz picking the best and worst Vaughan Williams symphony cycles. Here's a direct link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIaepn3758 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIaepn3758)

I think you'll especially like his comments regarding the original version of A London Symphony. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 10:21:09 AM
Did you watch the Hurwitz video yet, Jeffrey?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 19, 2020, 10:35:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 06:35:18 AM
Interesting. The video shows up for me. It's Hurwitz picking the best and worst Vaughan Williams symphony cycles. Here's a direct link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIaepn3758 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIaepn3758)

I think you'll especially like his comments regarding the original version of A London Symphony. ;)

I knew he hated hated hated the Haitink cycle, so that wasn't a surprise to me. Personally I have Haitink's 3/4 and find it superior to Slatkin's 3/4, the latter being his favorite cycle. Different strokes and all that.

He makes a good point that VW's symphonies are so varied in expression that it's very hard for one conductor to do them all successfully.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 19, 2020, 11:26:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 06:35:18 AM
Interesting. The video shows up for me. It's Hurwitz picking the best and worst Vaughan Williams symphony cycles. Here's a direct link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIaepn3758 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIaepn3758)

I think you'll especially like his comments regarding the original version of A London Symphony. ;)

Thanks John. Will watch later this evening or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 11:35:09 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 19, 2020, 10:35:16 AMHe makes a good point that VW's symphonies are so varied in expression that it's very hard for one conductor to do them all successfully.

This could be said of many composers' symphonies: Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius, Nielsen, Shostakovich, etc. I definitely don't agree with him and his assessment on the Handley cycle (overall just a faceless cycle to me). Also, I don't have praise for the Naxos cycle either --- mediocre performances at best. Naxos must pay him a lot of money to say a lot of what he says about their label's recordings as it seems like he's always kissing their ass.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 11:35:24 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2020, 11:26:19 AM
Thanks John. Will watch later this evening or tomorrow.

8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 19, 2020, 12:59:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 10:21:09 AM
Did you watch the Hurwitz video yet, Jeffrey?
Well, I have now John and I think that I may have watched it before as some sections seemed familiar. As always he is highly entertaining, however, I felt that this survey was a bit slap-dash and sometimes the humour got in the way of the analysis. He makes some fairly basic mistakes. there was never a 'Sir Vaughan Williams' as the composer refused to accept a knighthood. Also it was Ralph Richardson rather than John Gielgud who provided the narration for Previn's recording of 'Sinfonia Antartica'. It was good to see him put in a good word for the IMO underrated Andrew Davis and Leonard Slatkin cycles and I largely agree with his comments on the Previn cycle (although Symphony No.8 is my favourite version). Also, I agree with his comments on the Handley cycle. He is wrong about Haitink's 'Sea Symphony' which is my No.1 version and is too disparaging about the early Boult Decca/Everest cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2020, 12:59:38 PM
Well, I have now John and I think that I may have watched it before as some sections seemed familiar. As always he is highly entertaining, however, I felt that this survey was a bit slap-dash and sometimes the humour got in the way of the analysis. He makes some fairly basic mistakes. there was never a 'Sir Vaughan Williams' as the composer refused to accept a knighthood. Also it was Ralph Richardson rather than John Gielgud who provided the narration for Previn's recording of 'Sinfonia Antartica'. It was good to see him put in a good word for the IMO underrated Andrew Davis and Leonard Slatkin cycles and I largely agree with his comments on the Previn cycle (although Symphony No.8 is my favourite version). Also, I agree with his comments on the Handley cycle. He is wrong about Haitink's 'Sea Symphony' which is my No.1 version and is too disparaging about the early Boult Decca/Everest cycle.

Interesting. I have my own take on RVW of course. I never have liked any of Haitink's RVW, so he and I are in agreement about that, although he does go a bit too far expressing his dislike for it. It's like "We get it. Can you move on, please?" I do not like the Handley cycle at all --- I can't even think of one outstanding performance in his entire cycle. As I mentioned earlier, I find his performances faceless and there's simply not enough individuality in the performances for me to keep coming back to them. I see he made a mistake and pulled the Boult EMI cycle and I think this is one of the best, but I may be a little biased here as this was the cycle that got me hooked on this composer's music. I love Boult's RVW so much that I have several different iterations of it. I also agree with Hurwitz in that I prefer the revision of the A London Symphony, although I do like the 1920 version very much that Brabbins recorded (and a few others). I honestly didn't even finish the video because he got on my nerves, but I also disagree with him about the sound of the Thomson Chandos cycle. I have no issues with it at all. Of course, I love the Previn's cycle --- one of my favorites. His recording of the 5th (one of the most difficult RVW symphonies to get right, IMHO) is truly one for the ages and the same applies to his A Pastoral Symphony. Anyway, I think I've gone on a bit too long for now. :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 19, 2020, 02:16:57 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 01:37:01 PM
Interesting. I have my own take on RVW of course. I never have liked any of Haitink's RVW, so he and I are in agreement about that, although he does go a bit too far expressing his dislike for it. It's like "We get it. Can you move on, please?" I do not like the Handley cycle at all --- I can't even think of one outstanding performance in his entire cycle. As I mentioned earlier, I find his performances faceless and there's simply not enough individuality in the performances for me to keep coming back to them. I see he made a mistake and pulled the Boult EMI cycle and I think this is one of the best, but I may be a little biased here as this was the cycle that got me hooked on this composer's music. I love Boult's RVW so much that I have several different iterations of it. I also agree with Hurwitz in that I prefer the revision of the A London Symphony, although I do like the 1920 version very much that Brabbins recorded (and a few others). I honestly didn't even finish the video because he got on my nerves, but I also disagree with him about the sound of the Thomson Chandos cycle. I have no issues with it at all. Of course, I love the Previn's cycle --- one of my favorites. His recording of the 5th (one of the most difficult RVW symphonies to get right, IMHO) is truly one for the ages and the same applies to his A Pastoral Symphony. Anyway, I think I've gone on a bit too long for now. :D
Not at all John. As always, I read your comments with much interest. In fact I agree much more with you than with Hurwitz on Vaughan Williams. I rate Thomson's set very highly, especially No.6 which Hurwitz was dismissive of and No.9. I have no problem with the cavernous sound either. Handley's performances never inspired me. I don't think that he was a particularly insightful conductor of Vaughan Williams, although that set has many admirers. I do however really like the Hickox CD featuring the 1913 version of A London Symphony, although my favourite version is from 1920. I thought that Hurwitz's comparative survey of recordings of 'Job' was much better.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 02:47:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2020, 02:16:57 PM
Not at all John. As always, I read your comments with much interest. In fact I agree much more with you than with Hurwitz on Vaughan Williams. I rate Thomson's set very highly, especially No.6 which Hurwitz was dismissive of and No.9. I have no problem with the cavernous sound either. Handley's performances never inspired me. I don't think that he was a particularly insightful conductor of Vaughan Williams, although that set has many admirers. I do however really like the Hickox CD featuring the 1913 version of A London Symphony, although my favourite version is from 1920. I thought that Hurwitz's comparative survey of recordings of 'Job' was much better.

Yes, indeed. I don't actually agree with him on Job either. :) My two favorite Job recordings are Boult's later EMI one and Hickox's (on EMI), which Hurwitz didn't even mention. I found the newer Andrew Davis a bit of a letdown to be honest. I haven't heard Elder's new recording. I might buy it since I'm starting to feel of ol' Ralph yet again. :) Isn't the Elder one that you're getting for Christmas?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2020, 03:49:42 PM
I like the Hurwitzer but, boy, do he and I disagree about Vaughan Williams. My two favorite cycles are the two he dismissed: Boult (Decca) and Haitink. I love all Haitink's performances except his Fourth. And Boult does it for me in 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 9 (Decca) and 2 and 8 (EMI).

But I also have favorites among the other cycles, including one he didn't mention: Rozh.

Handley: 3 and 8
Slatkin: 1 and 4
Previn: 3, 5 and 7
Thomson: 2, 8 and 9
Bakels: 9
Rozhdestvensky: 4 and 5

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 03:53:53 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2020, 03:49:42 PM
I like the Hurwitzer but, boy, do he and I disagree about Vaughan Williams. My two favorite cycles are the two he dismissed: Boult (Decca) and Haitink. I love all Haitink's performances except his Fourth. And Boult does it for me in 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 9 (Decca) and 2 and 8 (EMI).

But I also have favorites among the other cycles, including one he didn't mention: Rozh.

Handley: 3 and 8
Slatkin: 1 and 4
Previn: 3, 5 and 7
Thomson: 2, 8 and 9
Bakels: 9
Rozhdestvensky: 4 and 5

Sarge

Ah yes, I knew you loved the Haitink, Sarge. I remember you like a bit slower performances in general. Like I recall you had a preference for Rozhdestvensky's Nielsen for example. In Vaughan Williams, especially in the 3rd, 5th and 8th symphonies, I like a bit swifter performances, but I'm fine if they want to take their time in the 5th's Romanza. ;) This is always a great wallow, but it's also just a fine piece of music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2020, 04:12:20 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 03:53:53 PM
Ah yes, I knew you loved the Haitink, Sarge. I remember you like a bit slower performances in general.

In general yes but I do like Thomson and Bakels' very fast Ninths. Odd though that in the preceding Symphony Thomson is very slow, especially in the first movement.  Of the twelve recordings of the Eighth I own, only Stokowski is slower than Thomson.

Sarge
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 04:15:37 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2020, 04:12:20 PM
In general yes but I do like Thomson and Bakels' very fast Ninths. Odd though that in the preceding Symphony Thomson is very slow, especially in the first movement.  Of the twelve recordings of the Eighth I own, only Stokowski is slower than Thomson.

Sarge

Yes and this is one instance where I think some of the slower tempi work in the 8th. Generally, this symphony benefits, IMHO, from a swifter performance. I recall that Vaughan Williams played the 8th back on the piano for a friend and the friend commented to him that it sounded more like a sinfonietta than a symphony. And Ralph quickly replied, "I don't care what you say. This is a symphony." or something to this effect, I"m paraphrasing. For many listeners, the 8th and 9th symphonies are perhaps the most enigmatic and strange. I'd say of the all of the symphonies, the 9th is the one I'm the least familiar with and I don't know why this is the case. I should revisit this work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 12:38:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 02:47:34 PM
Yes, indeed. I don't actually agree with him on Job either. :) My two favorite Job recordings are Boult's later EMI one and Hickox's (on EMI), which Hurwitz didn't even mention. I found the newer Andrew Davis a bit of a letdown to be honest. I haven't heard Elder's new recording. I might buy it since I'm starting to feel of ol' Ralph yet again. :) Isn't the Elder one that you're getting for Christmas?
I think that he briefly mentioned the Hickox 'Job' in a positive light but I may be wrong. I read some negative review of Elder's Job and, although I will probably still get it eventually, I have asked my daughter to buy me the soundtrack from 'The Crown: Series 3' instead ( ::)). However, my wife is giving me the Brabbins Symphony 5 and 'Pilgrim's Progress' music - so, I have not abandoned Vaughan Williams altogether at Christmas  ;D.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 12:44:50 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 04:15:37 PM
Yes and this is one instance where I think some of the slower tempi work in the 8th. Generally, this symphony benefits, IMHO, from a swifter performance. I recall that Vaughan Williams played the 8th back on the piano for a friend and the friend commented to him that it sounded more like a sinfonietta than a symphony. And Ralph quickly replied, "I don't care what you say. This is a symphony." or something to this effect, I"m paraphrasing. For many listeners, the 8th and 9th symphonies are perhaps the most enigmatic and strange. I'd say of the all of the symphonies, the 9th is the one I'm the least familiar with and I don't know why this is the case. I should revisit this work.
I love No.9 and find it very moving - a great work.
I think that it is well served on disc and especially like Stokowski's recording on Cala, both the Boult's, the earlier one from the day of VW's death is more urgent and the later one is more reflective - work in different ways. BBC Music Magazine issued a fine recording live by Andrew Davis and both Thomson and Slatkin are, IMO, excellent. I have both manifestations of the Haitink box set ( ::)) but, oddly enough, I'm not that familiar with his recordings, although his 'A Sea Symphony' is my absolute favourite and he is one of the few to get No.6 right. I know that Haitink's nos. 2 and 7 were very highly rated when they originally appeared. Having been dismissive of Handley I would add that his harps at the end of No.9 are perhaps the most moving of all. I rather like Handley's earlier LPO/EMI recording of 'A London Symphony' which I prefer to the Liverpool performance, in a nice two disc set:
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Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 20, 2020, 01:28:17 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2020, 03:49:42 PM
I like the Hurwitzer but, boy, do he and I disagree about Vaughan Williams. My two favorite cycles are the two he dismissed: Boult (Decca) and Haitink. I love all Haitink's performances except his Fourth. And Boult does it for me in 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 9 (Decca) and 2 and 8 (EMI).

But I also have favorites among the other cycles, including one he didn't mention: Rozh.

Handley: 3 and 8
Slatkin: 1 and 4
Previn: 3, 5 and 7
Thomson: 2, 8 and 9
Bakels: 9
Rozhdestvensky: 4 and 5

Sarge
Great survey! I think I don't agree on all of the details, but love the general picture.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 20, 2020, 02:37:27 AM
I also vaguely remember this review, certainly I bought the Slatkin cycle as a result of a discussion in this thread. I found nothing to complain about from Slatkin; several posters thought his Sea Symphony to be the finest of all, I thought it was OK but not exceptional.

I bought the Haitink cycle as it was issued and didn't find it anywhere near as bad as Hurwitz makes out - Sinfonia antartica was the highlight.

I don't think any one cycle contains the best of each symphony though Previn comes closest.

This is the first time for ages I have listened to a complete review from Hurwitz and it reminded me how much his voice irritates me and the silly voices and stupid comments even more so; at least a third of the review could be removed to good effect.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 06:18:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 12:38:06 AM
I think that he briefly mentioned the Hickox 'Job' in a positive light but I may be wrong. I read some negative review of Elder's Job and, although I will probably still get it eventually, I have asked my daughter to buy me the soundtrack from 'The Crown: Series 3' instead ( ::)). However, my wife is giving me the Brabbins Symphony 5 and 'Pilgrim's Progress' music - so, I have not abandoned Vaughan Williams altogether at Christmas  ;D.

Interesting, Jeffrey. I bought the Elder Job because the sound samples sounded quite nice and I did read many positive reviews about. I think you'll end up buying it sooner or later. ;)

Quote from: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 12:44:50 AM
I love No.9 and find it very moving - a great work.
I think that it is well served on disc and especially like Stokowski's recording on Cala, both the Boult's, the earlier one from the day of VW's death is more urgent and the later one is more reflective - work in different ways. BBC Music Magazine issued a fine recording live by Andrew Davis and both Thomson and Slatkin are, IMO, excellent. I have both manifestations of the Haitink box set ( ::)) but, oddly enough, I'm not that familiar with his recordings, although his 'A Sea Symphony' is my absolute favourite and he is one of the few to get No.6 right. I know that Haitink's nos. 2 and 7 were very highly rated when they originally appeared. Having been dismissive of Handley I would add that his harps at the end of No.9 are perhaps the most moving of all. I rather like Handley's earlier LPO/EMI recording of 'A London Symphony' which I prefer to the Liverpool performance, in a nice two disc set:
(//)

I've pretty much closed the door on Handley's RVW --- it's not for me and I just haven't responded to any of his performances so far and I've owned his cycle for years and years. I hang onto it hoping I'll have one of those 'lightbulb' moments with it, but it hasn't happened yet. The same with Haitink who is a conductor I generally like a lot, but just find him unmoving in RVW. I'll have to re-listen to some of Andrew Davis' performances as I own his Teldec cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 06:21:35 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 20, 2020, 02:37:27 AM
I also vaguely remember this review, certainly I bought the Slatkin cycle as a result of a discussion in this thread. I found nothing to complain about from Slatkin; several posters thought his Sea Symphony to be the finest of all, I thought it was OK but not exceptional.

I bought the Haitink cycle as it was issued and didn't find it anywhere near as bad as Hurwitz makes out - Sinfonia antartica was the highlight.

I don't think any one cycle contains the best of each symphony though Previn comes closest.

This is the first time for ages I have listened to a complete review from Hurwitz and it reminded me how much his voice irritates me and the silly voices and stupid comments even more so; at least a third of the review could be removed to good effect.

I'm rather surprised I sat through as much of that Hurwitz video as I did, because, like you, his voice is so annoying and grates on my nerves. And yes, the stupid comments he makes, which are quite frequent make him almost unbearable to watch.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 07:48:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 06:18:30 AM
Interesting, Jeffrey. I bought the Elder Job because the sound samples sounded quite nice and I did read many positive reviews about. I think you'll end up buying it sooner or later. ;)

I've pretty much closed the door on Handley's RVW --- it's not for me and I just haven't responded to any of his performances so far and I've owned his cycle for years and years. I hang onto it hoping I'll have one of those 'lightbulb' moments with it, but it hasn't happened yet. The same with Haitink who is a composer I generally like a lot, but just find him unmoving in RVW. I'll have to re-listen to some of Andrew Davis' performances as I own his Teldec cycle.
I'm sure you are right about Elder John, especially as I like the coupling and I think that Roasted Swan liked it as well. The Andrew Davis No.6 was rated very highly (it was the first release in the cycle) but none of the others appeared to live up to expectations. I agree that Thomson's No.8 is very good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 20, 2020, 09:58:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 07:48:28 AMThe Andrew Davis No.6 was rated very highly (it was the first release in the cycle) but none of the others appeared to live up to expectations.
I'm very surprised that Hurwitz rates it so high: I found much of the Davis cycle disappointing, even No. 6 isn't that good IMHO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 10:15:23 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 20, 2020, 09:58:42 AM
I'm very surprised that Hurwitz rates it so high: I found much of the Davis cycle disappointing, even No. 6 isn't that good IMHO.

Davis is much more convincing in Elgar, IMHO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 10:22:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 07:48:28 AM
I'm sure you are right about Elder John, especially as I like the coupling and I think that Roasted Swan liked it as well. The Andrew Davis No.6 was rated very highly (it was the first release in the cycle) but none of the others appeared to live up to expectations. I agree that Thomson's No.8 is very good.

My problem with Davis in RVW is he doesn't quite reach the same excitement as so many others. As I told Johan, I like his Elgar, especially those later Philharmonia live recordings he made for Signum Classics. His 2nd from this particular series is off-the-chain spectacular.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on December 20, 2020, 03:24:32 PM
Andrew Davis was consistently a let down for me.  Tel me this who is your reference, the one you compare others to?  He might not be your favorite but how you compare the others when assessing if a recording excels or not?  For me, Boult is the reference but probably never my first choice.  All of them are excellent and respectable, I just find better versions of each symphonies by individual conductors. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 03:57:14 PM
Quote from: relm1 on December 20, 2020, 03:24:32 PM
Andrew Davis was consistently a let down for me.  Tel me this who is your reference, the one you compare others to?  He might not be your favorite but how you compare the others when assessing if a recording excels or not?  For me, Boult is the reference but probably never my first choice.  All of them are excellent and respectable, I just find better versions of each symphonies by individual conductors.

Boult and Previn are in a tie for first-choice and I'm not about to decide between them. As I've stated, the Boult was first exposure to RVW's symphonies and they have remained a strong favorite until I got the Previn cycle, which was another revelation. My first recording of anything of RVW's music was the Marriner recording with The Lark Ascending and other works on Decca. I haven't heard this recording in years, so it might be interesting to revisit it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Daverz on December 20, 2020, 06:28:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 12:44:50 AM
l. I rather like Handley's earlier LPO/EMI recording of 'A London Symphony' which I prefer to the Liverpool performance, in a nice two disc set:

Listened to that Handley/LPO No. 2 last night.  It's a very dynamic performance, with a good recording to match.  I think Previn is still my top pick in No. 2.  This is a work that I've always found episodic and difficult to "follow", though I like the tunes.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 07:04:30 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 20, 2020, 06:28:34 PM
Listened to that Handley/LPO No. 2 last night.  It's a very dynamic performance, with a good recording to match.  I think Previn is still my top pick in No. 2.  This is a work that I've always found episodic and difficult to "follow", though I like the tunes.

Have you heard the newer Brabbins recording of the 1920 version of A London Symphony? It's become my go-to performance and version for this symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Daverz on December 20, 2020, 07:09:32 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 07:04:30 PM
Have you heard the newer Brabbins recording of the 1920 version of A London Symphony?

I might have.  I can't imagine an earlier version being more coherent.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 07:11:23 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 20, 2020, 07:09:32 PM
I might have.  I can't imagine an earlier version being more coherent.

Well, it's not one of RVW's strongest works in terms of structure, but...I do love getting lost in it and the way it kind sweeps you along.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 07:04:30 PM
Have you heard the newer Brabbins recording of the 1920 version of A London Symphony? It's become my go-to performance and version for this symphony.
+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 21, 2020, 02:11:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 03:57:14 PM
Boult and Previn are in a tie for first-choice and I'm not about to decide between them. As I've stated, the Boult was first exposure to RVW's symphonies and they have remained a strong favorite until I got the Previn cycle, which was another revelation. My first recording of anything of RVW's music was the Marriner recording with The Lark Ascending and other works on Decca. I haven't heard this recording in years, so it might be interesting to revisit it.
Same here (though mine was on Argo which I know was bought out by Decca)!  ;D (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41SO6eBZdVL._SX425_.jpg)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 21, 2020, 02:59:38 AM
My first RVW recording was also my first ever purchase - Sargent conducting Greensleeves Fantasia, Wasps Overture, Towards the Unknown Region and Serenade to Music. It was bargain price Music for Pleasure LP. It has since been reissued on CD with the Tallis Fantasia thrown in for good measure.

I acquired the Marriner recordings above as part of a box set of LPs entitled Festival of English Music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2020, 06:10:37 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 21, 2020, 02:11:06 AM
Same here (though mine was on Argo which I know was bought out by Decca)!  ;D (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41SO6eBZdVL._SX425_.jpg)

PD
These were my first two Vaughan Williams purchases. The Boult Decca Eclipse LP probably made more impression on me than any other recording:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 06:38:01 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 21, 2020, 02:11:06 AM
Same here (though mine was on Argo which I know was bought out by Decca)!  ;D

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41SO6eBZdVL._SX425_.jpg)

PD

Ah, well that's the one I own! I forgot it was an Argo release. Lovely recording the best I can remember. I wonder if this recording was many others' introduction?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 06:38:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 21, 2020, 06:10:37 AM
These were my first two Vaughan Williams purchases. The Boult Decca Eclipse LP probably made more impression on me than any other recording:

Very nice, Jeffrey. So you solidified your for the 6th quite early on. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on December 21, 2020, 07:05:28 AM
This was uploaded onto You Tube two weeks ago, which I think will interest RVW enthusiasts but could irritate the purists. I enjoyed it myself, and the pictures helped!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0UK5Bw89-s

The World How Wide: a choral reimagining of Vaughan Williams' Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis

Sung by Chorus of Royal Northern Sinfonia, joined by Quay Voices, The World How Wide Community Chorus and a string quartet from Royal Northern Sinfonia. 

Arranged and conducted by Timothy Burke.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 07:09:34 AM
Quote from: Oates on December 21, 2020, 07:05:28 AM
This was uploaded onto You Tube two weeks ago, which I think will interest RVW enthusiasts but could irritate the purists. I enjoyed it myself, and the pictures helped!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0UK5Bw89-s

The World How Wide: a choral reimagining of Vaughan Williams' Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis

Sung by Chorus of Royal Northern Sinfonia, joined by Quay Voices, The World How Wide Community Chorus and a string quartet from Royal Northern Sinfonia. 

Arranged and conducted by Timothy Burke.

Interesting idea, but not interested enough to watch it. I think the Tallis Fantasia is fine the way it is.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on December 21, 2020, 07:18:36 AM
The first piece I heard was Tallis Fantasia as a teenager when even though I had no interest in classical music what so ever left an impression.

The first recording I actually purchased was Previn's 5th Symphony. Talk about starting high! 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 07:23:51 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 21, 2020, 07:18:36 AM
The first piece I heard was Tallis Fantasia as a teenager when even though I had no interest in classical music what so ever left an impression.

The first recording I actually purchased was Previn's 5th Symphony. Talk about starting high! 8)

Yes! Previn's 5th is a performance that resonates quite strongly with me.

On another note, I listened to Andrew Manze's performance of the 8th late last night and I was underwhelmed. It only reminded me why I never actually bought any of his series with the exception of the first release, which was A London Symphony and the 8th, which is what soured me on exploring further:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA4NDEwMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ3ODg4NTZ9)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 21, 2020, 11:34:30 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 21, 2020, 07:18:36 AM
The first piece I heard was Tallis Fantasia as a teenager when even though I had no interest in classical music what so ever left an impression.

The first recording I actually purchased was Previn's 5th Symphony. Talk about starting high! 8)
Coincidentally that was exactly my introduction to VW as well!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on December 21, 2020, 02:15:37 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 21, 2020, 11:34:30 AM
Coincidentally that was exactly my introduction to VW as well!

Snap!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2020, 02:17:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 06:38:43 AM
Very nice, Jeffrey. So you solidified your for the 6th quite early on. :)
Oh yes, John, aged 17, never looked back!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2020, 02:19:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 07:23:51 AM
Yes! Previn's 5th is a performance that resonates quite strongly with me.

On another note, I listened to Andrew Manze's performance of the 8th late last night and I was underwhelmed. It only reminded me why I never actually bought any of his series with the exception of the first release, which was A London Symphony and the 8th, which is what soured me on exploring further:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA4NDEwMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ3ODg4NTZ9)
That was my experience with the Manze recordings as well John. I gave up after a couple of releases.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 21, 2020, 02:17:35 PM
Oh yes, John, aged 17, never looked back!

Very nice, indeed. I came to classical music later (in my late 20s), but I guess it's better late than never.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2020, 02:19:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 02:19:06 PM
Very nice, indeed. I came to classical music later (in my late 20s), but I guess it's better late than never.
That's hardly 'late' John  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 02:24:16 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 21, 2020, 02:19:56 PM
That's hardly 'late' John  ;D

Well, that's quite true, but sometimes I do wish I could have been exposed to it at an earlier age. I come from a classical background on my dad's side of the family, so that's what makes my getting into it later on a bit strange. My first musical love was jazz and I listened to this genre for about 15 years. But my love for classical has seemed to supersede everything at this juncture. 8) Once it's in the blood, it's there for life.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 21, 2020, 02:58:42 PM
Quote from: Irons on December 21, 2020, 07:18:36 AM
The first piece I heard was Tallis Fantasia as a teenager when even though I had no interest in classical music what so ever left an impression.

The first recording I actually purchased was Previn's 5th Symphony. Talk about starting high! 8)
;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 21, 2020, 03:01:20 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 21, 2020, 06:10:37 AM
These were my first two Vaughan Williams purchases. The Boult Decca Eclipse LP probably made more impression on me than any other recording:
Sweet!  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on December 22, 2020, 02:08:18 AM
As a schoolboy in the early-mid '60s I sometimes visited the home of my Best Friend, and in the hallway his father had a display cabinet with a repro of the RVW 'head' and the complete set of RVW/Boult/Decca LPs, all under glass.   :laugh:  My actual introduction to English music** at around the same time was the Decca recording of Britten's War Requiem - made a big impression on me.  My first RVW LP was a lot later, the Tallis Fantasia conducted by Boult on Lyrita.

** apart from singing in choirs as a boy alto and not really twigging that I was singing music by RVW, Holst, Parry etc.  I was just concentrating on the notes, no spare capacity to absorb the metadata as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 22, 2020, 02:52:57 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on December 22, 2020, 02:08:18 AM
As a schoolboy in the early-mid '60s I sometimes visited the home of my Best Friend, and in the hallway his father had a display cabinet with a repro of the RVW 'head' and the complete set of RVW/Boult/Decca LPs, all under glass.   :laugh:  My actual introduction to English music** at around the same time was the Decca recording of Britten's War Requiem - made a big impression on me.  My first RVW LP was a lot later, the Tallis Fantasia conducted by Boult on Lyrita.

** apart from singing in choirs as a boy alto and not really twigging that I was singing music by RVW, Holst, Parry etc.  I was just concentrating on the notes, no spare capacity to absorb the metadata as well.
Interesting story aukhawk.  You can see how much your friend's dad valued his music.  :) One thing to also consider, I have a friend (now in her early 70's) who mentioned how long she had to save up to buy one of Wagner's operas (from The Ring).  If I'm recalling correctly, it cost her one week's salary--as a starting lawyer!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 22, 2020, 03:13:18 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on December 22, 2020, 02:08:18 AM
As a schoolboy in the early-mid '60s I sometimes visited the home of my Best Friend, and in the hallway his father had a display cabinet with a repro of the RVW 'head' and the complete set of RVW/Boult/Decca LPs, all under glass.   :laugh:  My actual introduction to English music** at around the same time was the Decca recording of Britten's War Requiem - made a big impression on me.  My first RVW LP was a lot later, the Tallis Fantasia conducted by Boult on Lyrita.

** apart from singing in choirs as a boy alto and not really twigging that I was singing music by RVW, Holst, Parry etc.  I was just concentrating on the notes, no spare capacity to absorb the metadata as well.
Yes, v interesting. What do you mean by a 'repro' of the VW Head?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 22, 2020, 03:21:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 22, 2020, 03:13:18 AM
Yes, v interesting. What do you mean by a 'repro' of the VW Head?
I was curious about that too! lol  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on December 23, 2020, 06:22:14 AM
Well I've always assumed it was a copy, of the downward-looking bronze, because I don't think it was as large as the one in the RFH.  It was about 2/3 life size, from distant memory.  But it probably was bronze because plastics and resins weren't really a thing back then.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 23, 2020, 08:34:44 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on December 23, 2020, 06:22:14 AM
Well I've always assumed it was a copy, of the downward-looking bronze, because I don't think it was as large as the one in the RFH.  It was about 2/3 life size, from distant memory.  But it probably was bronze because plastics and resins weren't really a thing back then.

Very interesting - thanks. Do you have a photo of it?
Here is the RFH one:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2020, 09:35:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 26, 2019, 06:52:21 AM
(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/q/1/5/i/6/m/spotlight-mirror.svg.hi.png)Compositional Spotlight - Flos campi(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/u/s/u/O/Y/X/theatre-spotlight-hi.png)

(https://snowangelz.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/poppy-field.jpg)

Vaughan Williams played the viola, and frequently professed it was his favorite instrument. Along with the Suite for viola and orchestra of 1934, his most significant work for the instrument is the unusual Flos Campi (Flower of the Field), which combines the viola with a spare orchestral backing of strings, winds, tabor, and celesta, along with a mixed choir that sings wordlessly. It was first performed on October 10, 1925, in London, with violist Lionel Tertis, voices from the Royal College of Music, and the Queen's Hall Orchestra conducted by Sir Henry Wood. The reaction was mixed, and even such close friends of the composer as Gustav Holst admitted themselves puzzled by this subtle and voluptuous work.

In a program note for a 1927 performance, Vaughan Williams admitted "The title Flos Campi was taken by some to connote an atmosphere of 'buttercups and daisies....'" This is, in fact, far from the atmosphere of this work. Each of its six movements is headed by a quotation from the Old Testament's Song of Solomon, and it is the passionate quality of that text which informs Flos Campi. The work opens with the juxtaposition of viola and oboe, both playing melodically but in different keys, creating palpable tension. This opening movement is languorous and mysterious, its associated text speaking of the sickness of love, of how it is a "lily among thorns." Nature springs to life in the second movement, with the "singing of birds" and the "voice of the turtle." But the beloved is not present, and the third movement is passionate and agitated, with the viola accompanied mostly by the women of the choir. Men "expert in war" are at Solomon's bed in the vigorous fourth-movement march, in which the violist has an opportunity for some virtuoso display. The music builds to a rather tense climax, at which point we hear the murmuring of voices, over which the viola soars longingly. The orchestra takes up this music in a more peaceful strain, and the choir sings in sweet polyphony. The opening viola-oboe duet returns, but its ambivalence is resolved as the melodic material of the fifth movement is taken up again in a quiet and magical coda.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I first heard Flos Campi, I was rather taken with its' inherit beauty, but it was still rather unusual of a work for me. It took me several listens before coming to grips with its' structure and what it's possible intent could have been. I'll never truly know what this work means and what the purpose of it was, but that's rather unimportant when you're listening to it. It's really a strange phenomenon --- the way the work kind of lingers around and, if mist ever had any sound at all, this would certainly be close to it. I love the piece and even though I remain rather baffled by it, this never hindered my enjoyment of it nor of the ravishing sonorities RVW conjured up. One of a kind piece of music.

Reference recording: Cecil Aronowitz (viola), The King's College Choir of Cambridge, Jacques Orchestra, Sir David Willcocks (EMI)

What do you guys think of the work? Any favorite performances?

I really should do more of these "Compositional Spotlights"! I forgot about these! 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 23, 2020, 11:28:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2020, 09:35:20 AM
I really should do more of these "Compositional Spotlights"! I forgot about these! 8)
Nice idea John. Didn't VW jokingly refer to it as 'Camp Flossie'?
I like the Jacques Orchestra/Willcocks recording which has a particularly ethereal quality to it.
I remember my parents buying the LP for me, one Christmas, during the period of my youthful enthusiasm for Vaughan Williams:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2020, 12:03:27 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 23, 2020, 11:28:20 AM
Nice idea John. Didn't VW jokingly refer to it as 'Camp Flossie'?
I like the Jacques Orchestra/Willcocks recording which has a particularly ethereal quality to it.
I remember my parents buying the LP for me, one Christmas, during the period of my youthful enthusiasm for Vaughan Williams:
(//)

A lovely recording, indeed. You know it's funny the kind of response Flos campi received from his friend Holst. He said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that he couldn't get ahold of it. I think it's one of the most fascinating and, yes, gorgeous pieces of music I've ever heard, but I can certainly understand how it kind of confuses some listeners as it's not a concerto by traditional standards nor it is a choral piece. It's almost like a hybrid of both.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 29, 2020, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2020, 12:03:27 PM
A lovely recording, indeed. You know it's funny the kind of response Flos campi received from his friend Holst. He said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that he couldn't get ahold of it. I think it's one of the most fascinating and, yes, gorgeous pieces of music I've ever heard, but I can certainly understand how it kind of confuses some listeners as it's not a concerto by traditional standards nor it is a choral piece. It's almost like a hybrid of both.

Yes, I agree although I've always liked it. I think that my first encounter with it must have been Maurice Abravanel's Utah SO recording.

From WAYLTN thread:
My wife gave this to me for Christmas (as requested).
I think that it's a great performance with a wonderful sense of inevitability at the opening and an upbeat finale which reminded me, in places of 'A Pastoral Symphony':

(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 31, 2020, 05:41:05 AM
Enjoyed both rather recent Dutton releases with 'unknown' incidental music, this year. Especially the music for The Blue Bird (1913) is fine, IMHO:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8189SlDmzdL._AC_SX355_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Wg%2B8LjeIL._SX450_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 11, 2021, 10:54:01 AM
A pretty interesting video on the 5th symphony:

https://www.youtube.com/v/9S35rjq1ZyM
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 12, 2021, 12:34:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 11, 2021, 10:54:01 AM
A pretty interesting video on the 5th symphony:

https://www.youtube.com/v/9S35rjq1ZyM

Excellent, John. Thanks for bringing to our attention.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 12, 2021, 02:36:53 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 12, 2021, 12:34:07 AM
Excellent, John. Thanks for bringing to our attention.
+1 Enjoyed it!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 12, 2021, 06:09:31 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 12, 2021, 02:36:53 AM
+1 Enjoyed it!

PD
Me too, largely well-known facts, but put into a convincing argument for the music's greatness.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2021, 07:12:26 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 12, 2021, 12:34:07 AM
Excellent, John. Thanks for bringing to our attention.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 12, 2021, 02:36:53 AM
+1 Enjoyed it!

PD

Quote from: Christo on January 12, 2021, 06:09:31 AM
Me too, largely well-known facts, but put into a convincing argument for the music's greatness.  :)

I'm glad you all enjoyed it! I haven't finished watching it, but I will (probably during lunchtime).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on February 04, 2021, 02:46:47 PM
I really love the Pastoral Symphony. I reckon it's his greatest work, or at least the one which speaks to me the most directly.

I only have one recording, albeit a very good one: André Previn with the London Symphony Orchestra on RCA Victor. What are some other great recordings of the work?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Benji on February 04, 2021, 03:24:23 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 04, 2021, 02:46:47 PM
I really love the Pastoral Symphony. I reckon it's his greatest work, or at least the one which speaks to me the most directly.

I only have one recording, albeit a very good one: André Previn with the London Symphony Orchestra on RCA Victor. What are some other great recordings of the work?

It's an easy piece to fall for in a big way; so very heartfelt.

I really liked the more recent recording with the Hallé and Mark Elder... Except for the last movement. They made a bad choice with the soprano, she's just too heavy handed and it is such a shame. Otherwise it might be my first choice but now I have to swap to a different recording for the finale. I like the Previn one too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on February 04, 2021, 03:37:07 PM
I like Sir Adrian Boult, the stereo recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 04, 2021, 06:19:44 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 04, 2021, 02:46:47 PM
I really love the Pastoral Symphony. I reckon it's his greatest work, or at least the one which speaks to me the most directly.

I only have one recording, albeit a very good one: André Previn with the London Symphony Orchestra on RCA Victor. What are some other great recordings of the work?

Maybe a bit controversial choice but I happen to like the Haitink version. Slow, atmospheric, and dark with a lot of detail. Reminds me of a Caspar David Friedrich painting - probably not what VW was aiming for, but I like it anyway.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 04, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 04, 2021, 02:46:47 PM
I really love the Pastoral Symphony. I reckon it's his greatest work, or at least the one which speaks to me the most directly.

I only have one recording, albeit a very good one: André Previn with the London Symphony Orchestra on RCA Victor. What are some other great recordings of the work?

Michael Kennedy, the writer and friend of VW considered it to be his greatest work. Much as I admire it I prefer Nos. 2,5,6 and 9. Previn's is my favourite but I also enjoyed the Elder performance. I must give the Haitink another listen to. I was interested in vers la flamme's Caspar David Friedrich observation as he is one of my favourite painters. VW himself said that he'd been inspired by a 'Corot-like landscape' when he was on war service in France.
Here's a Corot landscape!
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on February 05, 2021, 05:39:25 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 04, 2021, 06:19:44 PM
Maybe a bit controversial choice but I happen to like the Haitink version. Slow, atmospheric, and dark with a lot of detail. Reminds me of a Caspar David Friedrich painting - probably not what VW was aiming for, but I like it anyway.

I think that Haitink's RVW is in general underappreciated.  At least at Classics Today!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 05, 2021, 05:48:20 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 05, 2021, 05:39:25 AM
I think that Haitink's RVW is in general underappreciated.  At least at Classics Today!
Here too I think. I recall that No.2 'London' and 7 'Antartica' were very well reviewed when they first appeared. I recall thinking that No.6 was one of the (IMO comparatively few) successful recordings. Listening to Haitink's 'A Sea Symphony' made that work come alive and it remains my favourite recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on February 05, 2021, 07:54:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2021, 05:48:20 AM
Listening to Haitink's 'A Sea Symphony' made that work come alive and it remains my favourite recording.

Oh wow same here!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 05, 2021, 10:55:24 AM
I remember at the time (way back when....) narrowing down people's suggestions (as to what my first boxed set of VW symphonies should be) to either Handley or Haitink and went for the Haitink.  Haven't played them in some time, but do recall enjoying them!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Herman on March 16, 2021, 01:43:46 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 19, 2020, 10:35:16 AM
I knew he hated hated hated the Haitink cycle, so that wasn't a surprise to me. Personally I have Haitink's 3/4 and find it superior to Slatkin's 3/4, the latter being his favorite cycle. Different strokes and all that.


In the youtube his main argument against Haitink seems to be that UK critics liked the Haitink cycle because Haitink is non-British, which is a 100% specious argument.

It could have been easily the other way around. Also, Haitink lives in the UK, is married to a britishwoman and his orchestra is British.

Nr 1 no no for a critic is to attack other critics.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on March 16, 2021, 08:22:34 AM
Oh that's peculiar since DH always praises Slatkin's take on the symphonies, and Slatkin is American.  DH trying to read into the motivations of other critics is foolishly arrogant.  The same argument could have then be used against DH saying that oh you only like Slatkin because of your American-centric prejudice!  Which is probably not true, which is the point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 16, 2021, 04:13:25 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 05, 2021, 05:39:25 AM
I think that Haitink's RVW is in general underappreciated.  At least at Classics Today!

I think it's inconsistent.  It is Fantastic, great, mediocre sometimes.  That's its achilles heal.  When it's great, it really is great.  But it isn't always that good.  Boult and Previn are consistently good but might not ever rise to fantastic.  Conductors evolve over time.  Previn 1960's to 70's is superior to Previn 1980's.  Boult was better in the 40's to 50's than 60's to 70's (sorry going off memory but the earlier cycle than the later cycle).  Well, what if a conductor takes decades to record a cycle? With Haitink, it is clear his earlier recordings were far supperior to his later ones.  I literally heard 8 and 9 (the last recording) while reading the score and he ignored dynamics, phrasing, tempo, or didn't care about it.  Some will argue the conductor is always right, but which conductor?  RVW music was better than what was recorded in some cases from Haitink.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 18, 2021, 01:41:14 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 16, 2021, 04:13:25 PM
I think it's inconsistent.  It is Fantastic, great, mediocre sometimes.  That's its achilles heal.  When it's great, it really is great.  But it isn't always that good.  Boult and Previn are consistently good but might not ever rise to fantastic.  Conductors evolve over time.  Previn 1960's to 70's is superior to Previn 1980's.  Boult was better in the 40's to 50's than 60's to 70's (sorry going off memory but the earlier cycle than the later cycle).  Well, what if a conductor takes decades to record a cycle? With Haitink, it is clear his earlier recordings were far supperior to his later ones.  I literally heard 8 and 9 (the last recording) while reading the score and he ignored dynamics, phrasing, tempo, or didn't care about it.  Some will argue the conductor is always right, but which conductor?  RVW music was better than what was recorded in some cases from Haitink.

I take it you mean by evolving they get worse? I agree with you on Previn as his tenure at the LSO was ground-breaking and he showed more then a few British conductors how English music along with Prokofiev, Shostakovich and many more should be performed. I collected his records with enthusiasm, but came to the conclusion that after that heady period neither Previn or the LSO were quite the same after going their separate ways.
Boult on the other hand I admire the wisdom he brings to the table during his Indian summer. His Decca recordings of RVW are more vibrant but I prefer the insights and experience of the later EMI set. Both Previn on RCA and Boult on EMI are for me the last word on RVW.
I have only one Haitink recording, the Antartica. Good without being overwhelmed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 18, 2021, 06:03:06 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 18, 2021, 01:41:14 AM
I take it you mean by evolving they get worse? I agree with you on Previn as his tenure at the LSO was ground-breaking and he showed more then a few British conductors how English music along with Prokofiev, Shostakovich and many more should be performed. I collected his records with enthusiasm, but came to the conclusion that after that heady period neither Previn or the LSO were quite the same after going their separate ways.
Boult on the other hand I admire the wisdom he brings to the table during his Indian summer. His Decca recordings of RVW are more vibrant but I prefer the insights and experience of the later EMI set. Both Previn on RCA and Boult on EMI are for me the last word on RVW.
I have only one Haitink recording, the Antartica. Good without being overwhelmed.

I didn't really mean "evolve" means devolve or get worse.  Just that there can be a major shift from their youthful interpretations and their elderly interpretations.  I seem to generally prefer the youthful ones.  For example, with Lennie Bernstein, MTT, Previn, Haitink, Jarvi, etc., I prefer their younger, more fiery interpretations of repertoire than their elderly more vast and slower interpretations.  If a conductor takes 30 or 40 years to produce a cycle, it will probably be quite different throughout.  It's just a personal preference because the same could be said about composers.  And yes, I am generalizing, there are exceptions, but it's just a general rule.  I would prefer the earlier mono Boult over the later EMI stereo one for instance but on a symphony by symphony basis, that might not be the case.  I prefer Bernstein's NYPO 1960's Mahler cycle over the DG cycle, etc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 18, 2021, 06:10:16 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 18, 2021, 06:03:06 AM
I didn't really mean "evolve" means devolve or get worse.  Just that there can be a major shift from their youthful interpretations and their elderly interpretations.  I seem to generally prefer the youthful ones.  For example, with Lennie Bernstein, MTT, Previn, Haitink, Jarvi, etc., I prefer their younger, more fiery interpretations of repertoire than their elderly more vast and slower interpretations.  If a conductor takes 30 or 40 years to produce a cycle, it will probably be quite different throughout.  It's just a personal preference because the same could be said about composers.  And yes, I am generalizing, there are exceptions, but it's just a general rule.  I would prefer the earlier mono Boult over the later EMI stereo one for instance but on a symphony by symphony basis, that might not be the case.  I prefer Bernstein's NYPO 1960's Mahler cycle over the DG cycle, etc.

Fair point - I'd add Mehta/Muti/Maazel to conductors whose work I prefer from their younger years......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 18, 2021, 06:49:42 AM
A little surprised at how the Concerto in C for two pianos has wheedled into my sonic affection.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Stürmisch Bewegt on March 18, 2021, 06:59:44 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 18, 2021, 06:49:42 AM
A little surprised at how the Concerto in C for two pianos has wheedled into my sonic affection.

Why surprised, Meister Henning? Reservations about it? I liked it on first hearing (a long time ago via recording below); it rocks! 

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 18, 2021, 07:40:52 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 18, 2021, 06:03:06 AM
I didn't really mean "evolve" means devolve or get worse.  Just that there can be a major shift from their youthful interpretations and their elderly interpretations.  I seem to generally prefer the youthful ones.  For example, with Lennie Bernstein, MTT, Previn, Haitink, Jarvi, etc., I prefer their younger, more fiery interpretations of repertoire than their elderly more vast and slower interpretations.  If a conductor takes 30 or 40 years to produce a cycle, it will probably be quite different throughout.  It's just a personal preference because the same could be said about composers.  And yes, I am generalizing, there are exceptions, but it's just a general rule.  I would prefer the earlier mono Boult over the later EMI stereo one for instance but on a symphony by symphony basis, that might not be the case.  I prefer Bernstein's NYPO 1960's Mahler cycle over the DG cycle, etc.

Bernstein is an excellent example. So is Ansermet, his mono recordings of the 1950's are far superior to the stereo remakes a decade later as he was getting a bit passed it and it showed. There is a flipside though, for example Menuhin who suffered much criticism for less then secure technique of his later violin recordings but age can bring wisdom and for me the musical insight he brings far outweighs any deficiency in technique. As for composers, Janacek? But as you say making generalizations will always throw up an opposite view.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 18, 2021, 07:48:25 AM
Quote from: Stürmisch Bewegt on March 18, 2021, 06:59:44 AM
Why surprised, Meister Henning? Reservations about it? I liked it on first hearing (a long time ago via recording below); it rocks! 



No reservations, I found it immediately likeable. The surprise is in the power of the attachment.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 18, 2021, 07:50:06 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 18, 2021, 06:49:42 AM
A little surprised at how the Concerto in C for two pianos has wheedled into my sonic affection.

A fascinating work that shows a Bartókian percussiveness to it (I'm thinking here of the Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion especially). If I'm mistaken, Bartók himself commented on this work saying he enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Stürmisch Bewegt on March 18, 2021, 04:11:33 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 18, 2021, 07:48:25 AM
No reservations, I found it immediately likeable. The surprise is in the power of the attachment.

Ah, you're a good man.  Its onward propulsion (though it's comprised of way more than that - the Romanza both beautiful and affecting) is indeed addictive.  "A rockin' little record I want my jockey to play." It was about all I listened to for several weeks way back when and had to wean myself off of it.  Wonder if I can just listen to it once now... :-[ 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 19, 2021, 05:58:08 AM
I love the Concerto for Two Pianos. I never looked back after taking this marvellous disc out of my local record library in my late teens:
(//)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 19, 2021, 06:01:52 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 18, 2021, 06:10:16 AM
Fair point - I'd add Mehta/Muti/Maazel to conductors whose work I prefer from their younger years......
Agreed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 19, 2021, 11:50:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 19, 2021, 05:58:08 AM
I love the Concerto for Two Pianos. I never looked back after taking this marvellous disc out of my local record library in my late teens:




I've been listening to Ralph Markham & Kenneth Broadway, Royal Phil, Menuhin.
I've also got Vitya Vronsky & Victor Brabin, London Phil, Boult
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Stürmisch Bewegt on March 19, 2021, 01:52:38 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 19, 2021, 05:58:08 AM
I love the Concerto for Two Pianos. I never looked back after taking this marvellous disc out of my local record library in my late teens:
(//)

I can only imagine what that concerto might have done to my delicate neuronal connections at that tender age... (Green with envy!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 20, 2021, 01:29:24 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 19, 2021, 11:50:35 AM
I've been listening to Ralph Markham & Kenneth Broadway, Royal Phil, Menuhin.
I've also got Vitya Vronsky & Victor Brabin, London Phil, Boult
The Vronsky/Babin/Boult is in a class of its own IMO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 20, 2021, 01:32:05 AM
Quote from: Stürmisch Bewegt on March 19, 2021, 01:52:38 PM
I can only imagine what that concerto might have done to my delicate neuronal connections at that tender age... (Green with envy!)
I was obsessed with Vaughan Williams from age 17. Fortunately my obsession coincided with the VW Centenary in 1972 when there was a revived interest in the composer with new recordings, books and concerts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 20, 2021, 06:40:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 20, 2021, 01:32:05 AM
I was obsessed with Vaughan Williams from age 17. Fortunately my obsession coincided with the VW Centenary in 1972 when there was a revived interest in the composer with new recordings, books and concerts.

Wow, you overlapped him by a few years.  That must add a connection to him for you.  Just like it does for me and Shostakovich who died when I was 3.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2021, 07:47:24 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 20, 2021, 01:29:24 AM
The Vronsky/Babin/Boult is in a class of its own IMO.

My recollection is imperfect, but I may well have picked this disc up at your suggestion, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2021, 07:53:00 AM
Especially because RVW worked with Ravel, my ear seems to make something of a connexion between the finale alla tedesca and La valse. This concerto has its hooks into me, but good, now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 20, 2021, 10:03:16 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 20, 2021, 07:53:00 AM
Especially because RVW worked with Ravel, my ear seems to make something of a connexion between the finale alla tedesca and La valse. This concerto has its hooks into me, but good, now.
Interesting Karl. I hadn't thought of that connection before but I think that you are right.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 23, 2021, 07:56:01 AM
Does it verge on heresy not to love a Barbirolli performance of Vaughan Williams?!  I listened to this recording the other day;

(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2020/09/10/js6coq-vaughanwil-preview-m3.jpg)

and didn't think much of it at all.  The opening is very atmospheric as is the epilogue (with a rather un-sweet violin solo).  I also liked the quite slow "nobilmente" tempo for the opening of the finale.  But that's about it for the "pros" column.  After that, too many other tempi feel leaden - the scherzo nearly leaden - not mercurial at all.  The 'churchyard' passage in the 1sy movement left me about as untouched as I have ever been.  Even the finale suffers ultimately for the slow basic tempo because each time he observes a further slowing toward the final cathartic climax things get turgid to the point of inertia.  Then there is the general playing and ensemble.  Goodness me there is some very sloppy ensemble - the right and left brass groups struggle to sound together.  All in all a major dud for me but that runs directly against received wisdom and one that left me thinking perhaps I'm beginning to go off the work as a whole!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 23, 2021, 08:07:28 AM
Even though I had supposed that the composer's tongue was in his cheek, somehow I was always put off by the title Concerto accademico (an instance of a joke backfiring, perhaps) but I've now listened to it twice, and of course I like it. So now, I'm not sure whether I wish he had called it simply a violin concerto, or if (in spite of my advancing years) I'll just get over it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 23, 2021, 08:22:21 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 23, 2021, 07:56:01 AM
Does it verge on heresy not to love a Barbirolli performance of Vaughan Williams?!  I listened to this recording the other day;

(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2020/09/10/js6coq-vaughanwil-preview-m3.jpg)

and didn't think much of it at all.  The opening is very atmospheric as is the epilogue (with a rather un-sweet violin solo).  I also liked the quite slow "nobilmente" tempo for the opening of the finale.  But that's about it for the "pros" column.  After that, too many other tempi feel leaden - the scherzo nearly leaden - not mercurial at all.  The 'churchyard' passage in the 1sy movement left me about as untouched as I have ever been.  Even the finale suffers ultimately for the slow basic tempo because each time he observes a further slowing toward the final cathartic climax things get turgid to the point of inertia.  Then there is the general playing and ensemble.  Goodness me there is some very sloppy ensemble - the right and left brass groups struggle to sound together.  All in all a major dud for me but that runs directly against received wisdom and one that left me thinking perhaps I'm beginning to go off the work as a whole!

Not heresy just personal choice. Barbirolli recorded the work twice and I marginally prefer the earlier one even though it is in mono. My favourite (tied for first place with Boult/LPO (1971). My most recent listening to the Barbirollis was of the remastered CDs in the Warner Barbirolli box.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 23, 2021, 08:28:38 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 23, 2021, 08:22:21 AM
Not heresy just personal choice. Barbirolli recorded the work twice and I marginally prefer the earlier one even though it is in mono. My favourite (tied for first place with Boult/LPO (1971). My most recent listening to the Barbirollis was of the remastered CDs in the Warner Barbirolli box.
I agree with Biffo - just a matter of personal choice. I actually prefer Barbirolli's later recording (also for the Oskar Kokoschka painting!) to the earlier version. Boult's later EMI recording was the one that I grew up with and nowadays Previn's RCA recording is my favourite of the 1936 version, although I usually listen to the 1920 or 1913 version, which I prefer. If I listen to the 1936 version I am acutely aware of the section which VW excised (mistakenly IMO - but let's not go there) just before the Epilogue.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2021, 03:17:04 AM
These are both IMO strong performances. I prefer Previn and Thomson in No.8 but No.9 can stand amongst the finest performances on disc. This was a nicely presented series featuring photos of VW at the age he was at the time of the compositions and including notes from his wife Ursula VW:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on March 30, 2021, 03:24:08 AM
Presto showed up in my twitter feed with a new 4th & 6th by Pappano/LSO. They have the 4th mvt of the 4th here for those interested. Out 16/04.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGSaj3NFHc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGSaj3NFHc)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 30, 2021, 04:10:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 30, 2021, 03:17:04 AM
These are both IMO strong performances. I prefer Previn and Thomson in No.8 but No.9 can stand amongst the finest performances on disc. This was a nicely presented series featuring photos of VW at the age he was at the time of the compositions and including notes from his wife Ursula VW:


I agree - the Slatkin No.9 is one of the highlights of his cycle.  Another one of these sets that can now be bought very cheaply (with no liner notes original sleeves etc) in a Sony bargain box;

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71S1-ntZh3L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2021, 04:15:07 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 30, 2021, 03:24:08 AM
Presto showed up in my twitter feed with a new 4th & 6th by Pappano/LSO. They have the 4th mvt of the 4th here for those interested. Out 16/04.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGSaj3NFHc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGSaj3NFHc)
I've pre-ordered that one Olivier.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2021, 04:17:41 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 30, 2021, 04:10:32 AM
I agree - the Slatkin No.9 is one of the highlights of his cycle.  Another one of these sets that can now be bought very cheaply (with no liner notes original sleeves etc) in a Sony bargain box;

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71S1-ntZh3L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
yes, I have that set too but much prefer the presentation of the original releases. IMO it's a shame that none of those RCA super-cheap sets contain any notes. It's like buying a hard-copy of a download.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 30, 2021, 04:20:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 30, 2021, 03:17:04 AM
These are both IMO strong performances. I prefer Previn and Thomson in No.8 but No.9 can stand amongst the finest performances on disc. This was a nicely presented series featuring photos of VW at the age he was at the time of the compositions and including notes from his wife Ursula VW:
(//)
Thanks for telling us about it Jeffrey; I'll keep my eyes out.  That boxed set Olivier looks tempting, but I hate it when they leave out the liner notes.  >:D  >:( :(

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on March 30, 2021, 04:38:16 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 30, 2021, 04:20:29 AM
Thanks for telling us about it Jeffrey; I'll keep my eyes out.  That boxed set Olivier looks tempting, but I hate it when they leave out the liner notes.  >:D  >:( :(

PD

Yes, those Sony boxes are really great because of their incredible affordability (I have a few of them), but the lack of liner notes is unfortunate.  I have ordered the Charles Gerhardt movie soundtrack Sony box just because it was such a great deal, but yes, no liner notes.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brahmsian on March 30, 2021, 04:39:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 30, 2021, 04:15:07 AM
I've pre-ordered that one Olivier.

I need another cup of coffee this morning.  I read this as:  "I've pre-ordered this for you, Olivier".  I thought to myself.....how generous and kind of Jeffrey.  :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 30, 2021, 04:50:00 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 30, 2021, 04:39:14 AM
I need another cup of coffee this morning.  I read this as:  "I've pre-ordered this for you, Olivier".  I thought to myself.....how generous and kind of Jeffrey.  :D
:laugh:  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on March 30, 2021, 04:58:42 AM
That Slatkin is a biiiiiiiiig box  :laugh:

Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 30, 2021, 04:39:14 AM
I need another cup of coffee this morning.  I read this as:  "I've pre-ordered this for you, Olivier".  I thought to myself.....how generous and kind of Jeffrey.  :D

I am merely one of many re-routing/holding options that Jeffrey uses for his CD orders when the Lady of the House comments sarcastically about his obsessive and repeated RVW orders  :blank:


(not really... but... you know.. if need be  ;D )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 30, 2021, 04:59:38 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 30, 2021, 04:58:42 AM
That Slatkin is a biiiiiiiiig box  :laugh:

I am merely one of many re-routing/holding options that Jeffrey uses for his CD orders when the Lady of the House comments sarcastically about his obsessive and repeated RVW orders  :blank:


(not really... but... you know.. if need be  ;D )
lol  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2021, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 30, 2021, 04:39:14 AM
I need another cup of coffee this morning.  I read this as:  "I've pre-ordered this for you, Olivier".  I thought to myself.....how generous and kind of Jeffrey.  :D
Haha - don't hesitate to send me your CD box set requests!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2021, 12:55:14 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 30, 2021, 04:58:42 AM
That Slatkin is a biiiiiiiiig box  :laugh:

I am merely one of many re-routing/holding options that Jeffrey uses for his CD orders when the Lady of the House comments sarcastically about his obsessive and repeated RVW orders  :blank:


(not really... but... you know.. if need be  ;D )

I've perfected ways of smuggling LPs and CDs past my parents, in my youth, and now my wife over many decades. Keeping my ground floor bedroom window open a bit at the bottom for the cats to get in an out was a master-stroke, if I say so myself. I could then sneak round, through the communal garden of our block of flats (apartments) to my bedroom window and throw the LP in, onto the carpet, before appearing, all innocent looking, at the front door a few moments later.  :D >:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2021, 07:31:46 AM
I enjoyed this CD more than before (both works). Slatkin does not rush the finale of No.6:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roy Bland on March 31, 2021, 05:19:29 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 31, 2021, 07:31:46 AM
I enjoyed this CD more than before (both works). Slatkin does not rush the finale of No.6:
(//)
IMHO Slatkin is at the top in Symphonia Antartica well supported from Philarmonia.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 01, 2021, 03:15:53 AM
Quote from: Roy Bland on March 31, 2021, 05:19:29 PM
IMHO Slatkin is at the top in Symphonia Antartica well supported from Philarmonia.
I'll give that another listen to, coupled with a rather good 'Dives and Lazarus' if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2021, 12:09:23 AM
I've been enjoying both of these performances. The Barbican acoustic is rather dry (more noticeable in Symphony No.4 I think). In particular, the performance of the hushed finale of the 6th Symphony is very effectively delineated (most conductors tend to rush through it - Boult and Abravanel are exceptions). Pappano (in his introductory note) makes a lot of the fact that the recordings took place on the day of the 2019 UK election (No.4) and on the date of the first UK lockdown in 2020 (No.6) and that the performances picked up some of the tension and anxiety of those days.
I look forward to hearing what Brabbins makes of Symphony No.6 but I much prefer these performances of both works to recent ones by Manze and Elder, both of which I found disappointing:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 18, 2021, 12:44:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 18, 2021, 12:09:23 AM
I've been enjoying both of these performances. The Barbican acoustic is rather dry (more noticeable in Symphony No.4 I think). In particular, the performance of the hushed finale of the 6th Symphony is very effectively delineated (most conductors tend to rush through it - Boult and Abravanel are exceptions). Pappano (in his introductory note) makes a lot of the fact that the recordings took place on the day of the 2019 UK election (No.4) and on the date of the first UK lockdown in 2020 (No.6) and that the performances picked up some of the tension and anxiety of those days.
I look forward to hearing what Brabbins makes of Symphony No.6 but I much prefer these performances of both works to recent ones by Manze and Elder, both of which I found disappointing:
(//)

I am aware CD players are able to programme Jeffrey but I tend not to use that facility. EMI coupled the 4th and 6th for the Boult CD issue which I find an odd decision. Of course if Pappano only recorded the two then .......
I am assuming they are live recordings, if so, the hall acoustic in my view is of minor importance as the ear soon adjusts, it is part of the recorded event and not a defect. Performance can conquer all.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2021, 01:27:31 AM
Quote from: Irons on April 18, 2021, 12:44:50 AM
I am aware CD players are able to programme Jeffrey but I tend not to use that facility. EMI coupled the 4th and 6th for the Boult CD issue which I find an odd decision. Of course if Pappano only recorded the two then .......
I am assuming they are live recordings, if so, the hall acoustic in my view is of minor importance as the ear soon adjusts, it is part of the recorded event and not a defect. Performance can conquer all.
Yes, both live Lol. Both of Boult's Decca and EMI CD releases coupled 4 and 6. I prefer Slatkin's coupling of 5 and 6.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on April 18, 2021, 01:59:47 AM
Couplings of 4 & 6 (and also of 3 & 5) make sense because they present the composer in similar vein - if you like one of the pair of symphonies, then you are quite likely to like the other, so that on a CD where they get artificially joined at the hip the value for money is better.  A coupling of (say) 5 & 6 of course makes good sense from the point of view of progressing through the composer's oeuvre but the risk is that the listener my like one but not the other, and so in CD terms this is, for some buyers, poor value for money.  This is similar to a concert programme where two popular warhorses surround a new commission from an unknown composer - audiences (especially subscription audiences) are routinely expected to put up with this.

Fortunately we now have downloads and for my part I have bought Symphony 6 (Pappano) on its own and without any financial penalty, because I know I would not listen to the 4th.  My favourite 6th up to now has been Andrew Davis but this new one sounds pretty good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2021, 02:36:53 AM
I also like the Andrew Davis recording of No.6 - arguably the best of his series, although I liked his recording of No.5, played by the BBC on Radio 3 on the day after the Duke of Edinburgh's death.

The Davis cycle is included in this inexpensive box set:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 18, 2021, 06:27:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 18, 2021, 12:09:23 AM
I've been enjoying both of these performances. The Barbican acoustic is rather dry (more noticeable in Symphony No.4 I think). In particular, the performance of the hushed finale of the 6th Symphony is very effectively delineated (most conductors tend to rush through it - Boult and Abravanel are exceptions). Pappano (in his introductory note) makes a lot of the fact that the recordings took place on the day of the 2019 UK election (No.4) and on the date of the first UK lockdown in 2020 (No.6) and that the performances picked up some of the tension and anxiety of those days.
I look forward to hearing what Brabbins makes of Symphony No.6 but I much prefer these performances of both works to recent ones by Manze and Elder, both of which I found disappointing:
(//)

I enjoyed this performance, found it better than some other recent interpretations but for some reason, I seem to be very heavily stuck on Boult and Previn as the pinnacle of RVW symphony interpretations and this one just doesn't displace those.  Pappano seems to take a non sentimental (just the facts of the score) approach rather than a subtextual interpretation that Boult and Previn take (the music has more to say that just what's in the notes).  It's a different approach and in some works, this approach can get you in trouble, but other works I think is preferable.  I think RVW is one of those composers where what is not written in the material is just as important and should be conveyed by an interpretation.  I'm not saying it's ok to ignore the direction (Haitink) or to follow it religiously without letting it breathe bringing in some dullness (Davis) but following the notes carefully and getting inside the mind of the composer, where he was in his life, his philosophy, and what he meant as well.  What was unsaid is just as valid as what is directly said with RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2021, 08:29:06 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 18, 2021, 06:27:18 AM
I enjoyed this performance, found it better than some other recent interpretations but for some reason, I seem to be very heavily stuck on Boult and Previn as the pinnacle of RVW symphony interpretations and this one just doesn't displace those.  Pappano seems to take a non sentimental (just the facts of the score) approach rather than a subtextual interpretation that Boult and Previn take (the music has more to say that just what's in the notes).  It's a different approach and in some works, this approach can get you in trouble, but other works I think is preferable.  I think RVW is one of those composers where what is not written in the material is just as important and should be conveyed by an interpretation.  I'm not saying it's ok to ignore the direction (Haitink) or to follow it religiously without letting it breathe bringing in some dullness (Davis) but following the notes carefully and getting inside the mind of the composer, where he was in his life, his philosophy, and what he meant as well.  What was unsaid is just as valid as what is directly said with RVW.
Most interesting and I largely agree with you. I don't think that any other recording will, for me, replace Boult's Decca account with the composer in the studio (VW makes a speech at the end). Here's what the Sunday Times had to say today about the new Pappano recording which was their 'Classical Album of the Week':

'Pappano's debut on the LSO's label coincides with his appointment as its chief conductor from 2024. These live recordings of Vaughan Williams's most dissonant, rebarbative symphonies are as auspicious as André Previn's studio versions of Nos 6 to 8 made immediately before his appointment to the same post in 1968, which led to one of the most acclaimed recorded VW cycles. Although the composer refused to explain the 'meaning' of his symphonies, both are amongst the most modern-sounding works. Pappano's dramatic, thrustful accounts, vividly recorded, have a momentous, dynamic allure that bodes well for his future tenure, and the orchestra plays this music - the opening bars of the Sixth will recall the 1970s TV drama A Family at War to older listeners [he is wrong - the theme music comes from the end, not the beginning, of the first movement] - to the manner born. A live Pappano/LSO cycle would be an exciting prospect.' (Hugh Canning).

Of later recordings (later than Boult's Decca recording) I like the sibelian Berglund versions of both 4 and 6, Thomson in both and Abravanel in No.6. The Previn (No.6) has grown on me in recent years. I like Haitink's No.6 as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 18, 2021, 03:59:50 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 18, 2021, 08:29:06 AM
Most interesting and I largely agree with you. I don't think that any other recording will, for me, replace Boult's Decca account with the composer in the studio (VW makes a speech at the end). Here's what the Sunday Times had to say today about the new Pappano recording which was their 'Classical Album of the Week':

'Pappano's debut on the LSO's label coincides with his appointment as its chief conductor from 2024. These live recordings of Vaughan Williams's most dissonant, rebarbative symphonies are as auspicious as André Previn's studio versions of Nos 6 to 8 made immediately before his appointment to the same post in 1968, which led to one of the most acclaimed recorded VW cycles. Although the composer refused to explain the 'meaning' of his symphonies, both are amongst the most modern-sounding works. Pappano's dramatic, thrustful accounts, vividly recorded, have a momentous, dynamic allure that bodes well for his future tenure, and the orchestra plays this music - the opening bars of the Sixth will recall the 1970s TV drama A Family at War to older listeners [he is wrong - the theme music comes from the end, not the beginning, of the first movement] - to the manner born. A live Pappano/LSO cycle would be an exciting prospect.' (Hugh Canning).

Of later recordings (later than Boult's Decca recording) I like the sibelian Berglund versions of both 4 and 6, Thomson in both and Abravanel in No.6. The Previn (No.6) has grown on me in recent years. I like Haitink's No.6 as well.

That's a lousy review.  The composer explains his thoughts in parables.  It is obvious to those who hear and is clouded in mystery to those who don't.  For example in No. 9 he references the Tempest but the musical notes don't.  An interpreter who studies the score and the composer should understand the difference and what was meant.  More significantly, in No. 1, that is NOT a symphony about the SEA!!!!! The poems from Whitman include Leaves of Grass and Passage to India which are about death, passage of time, and progress.  How we learn and grow and acquire knowledge...those great times of amazing knowledge the poems were written in.  The poem is fantastic and I can understand why Whitman inspired so many artists.  They are transcendent and metaphorical.  Same with other great poets so when RVW references a Shakespeare literary work, even though the composer might not have used a word to explain the music, he spoke volumes about its meaning. Few composers explained themselves as eloquently as RVW did so its greatly annoying when conductors only use the score or worse, when "Sunday Times" ignores it and subtext. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2021, 10:12:58 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 18, 2021, 03:59:50 PM
That's a lousy review.  The composer explains his thoughts in parables.  It is obvious to those who hear and is clouded in mystery to those who don't.  For example in No. 9 he references the Tempest but the musical notes don't.  An interpreter who studies the score and the composer should understand the difference and what was meant.  More significantly, in No. 1, that is NOT a symphony about the SEA!!!!! The poems from Whitman include Leaves of Grass and Passage to India which are about death, passage of time, and progress.  How we learn and grow and acquire knowledge...those great times of amazing knowledge the poems were written in.  The poem is fantastic and I can understand why Whitman inspired so many artists.  They are transcendent and metaphorical.  Same with other great poets so when RVW references a Shakespeare literary work, even though the composer might not have used a word to explain the music, he spoke volumes about its meaning. Few composers explained themselves as eloquently as RVW did so its greatly annoying when conductors only use the score or worse, when "Sunday Times" ignores it and subtext.
Once again very interesting, although didn't VW reference the Tempest in relation to the last movement of No.6 rather than No.9?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 18, 2021, 11:49:28 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 18, 2021, 03:59:50 PM
That's a lousy review.  The composer explains his thoughts in parables.  It is obvious to those who hear and is clouded in mystery to those who don't.  For example in No. 9 he references the Tempest but the musical notes don't.  An interpreter who studies the score and the composer should understand the difference and what was meant.  More significantly, in No. 1, that is NOT a symphony about the SEA!!!!! The poems from Whitman include Leaves of Grass and Passage to India which are about death, passage of time, and progress.  How we learn and grow and acquire knowledge...those great times of amazing knowledge the poems were written in.  The poem is fantastic and I can understand why Whitman inspired so many artists.  They are transcendent and metaphorical.  Same with other great poets so when RVW references a Shakespeare literary work, even though the composer might not have used a word to explain the music, he spoke volumes about its meaning. Few composers explained themselves as eloquently as RVW did so its greatly annoying when conductors only use the score or worse, when "Sunday Times" ignores it and subtext.

A thought provoking post. The "Pastoral Symphony" is an equally misunderstood title. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on April 19, 2021, 05:09:42 AM
Death, the passage of time and progress have everything to do with the sea (oceans). The sea is a metaphor to all that - and more.

All lives and deaths, all of the past, present, future,
This vast similitude spans them, and always has spann'd,
And shall forever span them and compactly hold and enclose them



O vast Rondure, swimming in space,
Cover'd all over with visible power and beauty,
Alternate light and day and the teeming spiritual darkness,
Unspeakable high processions of sun and moon and countless stars above (...)



O we can wait no longer,
We too take ship O soul,
Joyous we too launch out on trackless seas,
Fearless for unknown shores on waves of ecstasy to sail,
Amid the wafting winds, (thou pressing me to thee, I thee to me, O soul,)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 19, 2021, 06:10:46 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 18, 2021, 10:12:58 PM
Once again very interesting, although didn't VW reference the Tempest in relation to the last movement of No.6 rather than No.9?

I'm going off memory, I think you are right about No. 5 and Tess was No. 9?  Again going off memory but the point is these works are rich with extra musical sources.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 19, 2021, 06:33:53 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 19, 2021, 06:10:46 AM
I'm going off memory, I think you are right about No. 5 and Tess was No. 9?  Again going off memory but the point is these works are rich with extra musical sources.
Yes, Tess and Stonehenge were apparently original inspirations for No.9. Certainly Stonehenge and Symphony No.9 share similar monolithic qualities.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on April 19, 2021, 07:12:40 AM
Quote from: Irons on April 18, 2021, 11:49:28 PM
A thought provoking post. The "Pastoral Symphony" is an equally misunderstood title.

I was happily surprised that Het Symfonieorkest Vlaanderen (the Flemish Symphony Orchestra/ Bruges) and conductor Kristiina Poska will perform RVW's fifth symphony. Even greater was my surprise that the symphony suddenly got a title!

https://www.symfonieorkest.be/nl/agenda/102/the_celestial_city/kristiina_poska_

Apparently Michael Kennedy used that description. I doubt that RVW himself would be pleased.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Florestan on April 19, 2021, 07:37:59 AM
Quote from: André on April 19, 2021, 05:09:42 AM
Death, the passage of time and progress have everything to do with the sea (oceans). The sea is a metaphor to all that - and more.

My thoughts exactly. And let me add to Whitman's poem another one, by a poet no less profound.

Homme libre, toujours tu chériras la mer !
La mer est ton miroir ; tu contemples ton âme
Dans le déroulement infini de sa lame,
Et ton esprit n'est pas un gouffre moins amer.

Tu te plais à plonger au sein de ton image ;
Tu l'embrasses des yeux et des bras, et ton coeur
Se distrait quelquefois de sa propre rumeur
Au bruit de cette plainte indomptable et sauvage.

Vous êtes tous les deux ténébreux et discrets :
Homme, nul n'a sondé le fond de tes abîmes ;
Ô mer, nul ne connaît tes richesses intimes,
Tant vous êtes jaloux de garder vos secrets !

Et cependant voilà des siècles innombrables
Que vous vous combattez sans pitié ni remord,
Tellement vous aimez le carnage et la mort,
Ô lutteurs éternels, ô frères implacables !


(Baudelaire)

It's probably no coincidence that sailors can make good, even profound, writers and composers (otomh Mark Twain, Joseph Conrad, Jean Cras).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 19, 2021, 08:00:09 AM
Quote from: pjme on April 19, 2021, 07:12:40 AM
I was happily surprised that Het Symfonieorkest Vlaanderen (the Flemish Symphony Orchestra/ Bruges) and conductor Kristiina Poska will perform RVW's fifth symphony. Even greater was my surprise that the symphony suddenly got a title!

https://www.symfonieorkest.be/nl/agenda/102/the_celestial_city/kristiina_poska_

Apparently Michael Kennedy used that description. I doubt that RVW himself would be pleased.

Very interesting!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 19, 2021, 10:36:59 AM
Quote from: pjme on April 19, 2021, 07:12:40 AM
I was happily surprised that Het Symfonieorkest Vlaanderen (the Flemish Symphony Orchestra/ Bruges) and conductor Kristiina Poska will perform RVW's fifth symphony. Even greater was my surprise that the symphony suddenly got a title!

https://www.symfonieorkest.be/nl/agenda/102/the_celestial_city/kristiina_poska_

Apparently Michael Kennedy used that description. I doubt that RVW himself would be pleased.
A great program!  Wish that I could be there!  Do local radio stations normally broadcast these concerts (wondering whether or not I could listen to it online).

In any event, yes that is surprising about the title given to it!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 19, 2021, 11:31:41 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 19, 2021, 10:36:59 AM
A great program!  Wish that I could be there!  Do local radio stations normally broadcast these concerts (wondering whether or not I could listen to it online).

In any event, yes that is surprising about the title given to it!

PD

I am equally surprised. I have always placed the 5th in the pure music category. But it could be argued there is no such thing (pure music). 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 20, 2021, 12:04:30 AM
In his book The music of Vaughan Williams Michael Kennedy discusses the numerous links to The Pilgrim's Progress (in its various guises) and also the 4th and 6th symphonies. He concludes 'They [4th, 5th & 6th symphonies] are the summit and the kernel of Vaughan Williams' art; and the greatest of the three - perhaps of all his works - is, in my opinion, this Symphony of the Celestial City. '

He is not giving the work a nickname.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2021, 12:53:38 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 20, 2021, 12:04:30 AM
In his book The music of Vaughan Williams Michael Kennedy discusses the numerous links to The Pilgrim's Progress (in its various guises and also the 4th and 6th symphonies. He concludes 'The 4th, 5th & 6th symphonies] are the summit and the kernel of Vaughan Williams' art; and the greatest of the three - perhaps of all his works - is, in my opinion, this Symphony of the Celestial City. '

He is not giving the work a nickname.
Yes, that's interesting. VW certainly used material destined for PP in the symphony. I thought that Michael Kennedy considered 'A Pastoral Symphony' to be the greatest of all VW's symphonies, although it would not be my choice and, along with No.4, it's the one that I listen to least these days.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 20, 2021, 03:33:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 20, 2021, 12:53:38 AM
Yes, that's interesting. VW certainly used material destined for PP in the symphony. I thought that Michael Kennedy considered 'A Pastoral Symphony' to be the greatest of all VW's symphonies, although it would not be my choice and, along with No.4, it's the one that I listen to least these days.
I looked up what Michael Kennedy had to say about it in The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams, second edition, and yes, that was a correct quote; however, there is also a footnote in which he said:

"That was my opinion in 1963 and sometimes still is; but I now tend to view that the greatest and most original of Vaughan Williams's symphonies is the Pastoral, which more than ever sounds to me to be his 'War Requiem'."

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 20, 2021, 03:41:24 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 20, 2021, 03:33:38 AM
I looked up what Michael Kennedy had to say about it in The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams, second edition, and yes, that was a correct quote; however, there is also a footnote in which he said:

"That was my opinion in 1963 and sometimes still is; but I now tend to view that the greatest and most original of Vaughan Williams's symphonies is the Pastoral, which more than ever sounds to me to be his 'War Requiem'."

PD

Thanks for that clarification. I have the First Edition (Paperback Edition, 1971).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on April 20, 2021, 04:05:04 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 20, 2021, 12:04:30 AM
In his book The music of Vaughan Williams Michael Kennedy discusses the numerous links to The Pilgrim's Progress (in its various guises) and also the 4th and 6th symphonies. He concludes 'They [4th, 5th & 6th symphonies] are the summit and the kernel of Vaughan Williams' art; and the greatest of the three - perhaps of all his works - is, in my opinion, this Symphony of the Celestial City. '

He is not giving the work a nickname.

And that is why I find it quite brutal for a concert organisation/orchestra to use those words.

Wikipedia mentiones :
"....an  inscription (from  The Pilgrim's Progress') was omitted from the published score in accordance with the composer's wish that the symphony should be regarded as absolute music."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Vaughan_Williams)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2021, 05:09:50 AM
Last three posts are v interesting and informative - thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 20, 2021, 05:58:32 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 20, 2021, 03:41:24 AM
Thanks for that clarification. I have the First Edition (Paperback Edition, 1971).
That makes sense then.  :)

PD
Quote from: pjme on April 20, 2021, 04:05:04 AM
And that is why I find it quite brutal for a concert organisation/orchestra to use those words.

Wikipedia mentiones :
"....an  inscription (from  The Pilgrim's Progress') was omitted from the published score in accordance with the composer's wish that the symphony should be regarded as absolute music."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Vaughan_Williams)


Thanks for that link!  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on April 20, 2021, 01:55:36 PM
I had always assumed that Michael Kennedy (who I have met) and Nigel Kennedy (who I have seen in concert playing Elgar VC) were closely related - but apparently not.  My mistake.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Herman on April 23, 2021, 11:16:05 PM
Quote from: pjme on April 20, 2021, 04:05:04 AM
And that is why I find it quite brutal for a concert organisation/orchestra to use those words.



My guess is the marketing people in Flanders decided more people would come if the symphony had a title.

On the continent RVW is not a big name.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 25, 2021, 12:55:43 AM
Quote from: Herman on April 23, 2021, 11:16:05 PM
My guess is the marketing people in Flanders decided more people would come if the symphony had a title.

On the continent RVW is not a big name.
In an Austrian CD shop years ago, I found a large section devoted to the music of Benjamin Britten and no VW at all.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 25, 2021, 03:43:36 AM
Quote from: Herman on April 23, 2021, 11:16:05 PM
My guess is the marketing people in Flanders decided more people would come if the symphony had a title.

On the continent RVW is not a big name.
???

Quote from: vandermolen on April 25, 2021, 12:55:43 AM
In an Austrian CD shop years ago, I found a large section devoted to the music of Benjamin Britten and no VW at all.
:o  Do you remember about how long ago this was Jeffrey?

In any event, I would have thought that this would have changed by now?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 25, 2021, 04:59:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 25, 2021, 12:55:43 AM
In an Austrian CD shop years ago, I found a large section devoted to the music of Benjamin Britten and no VW at all.

My take is Britten is, or was, popular in East Europe - quite a few Britten recordings on the Czech Supraphon label and RVW popular in US. This possibly reflects the political leanings of both composers. Arguably the most famous English composer, Elgar, is a bit of a home bird and doesn't travel well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 25, 2021, 01:39:13 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 25, 2021, 03:43:36 AM
???
:o  Do you remember about how long ago this was Jeffrey?

In any event, I would have thought that this would have changed by now?

PD
2008 PD - I just found this email from the time to my brother's music-loving brother in law:

'We have been away in Austria for a week, so just found your nice message. I managed to sneak into a CD shop in Kitzbuhel and bought Furtwangler conducting Bruckner's 7th Symphony (Cairo 1951)'

I think that VW is mainly popular in Britain and the USA. I remember working at the W H Smith record dept as my Saturday job when I was at school. I would play VW whenever I was alone in the dept and I still remember a young Spanish man come over to me to ask what I was playing as he liked it so much. I guess that it's a question of having the opportunity to hear it in the first place.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 26, 2021, 11:14:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 25, 2021, 01:39:13 PM
2008 PD - I just found this email from the time to my brother's music-loving brother in law:

'We have been away in Austria for a week, so just found your nice message. I managed to sneak into a CD shop in Kitzbuhel and bought Furtwangler conducting Bruckner's 7th Symphony (Cairo 1951)'

I think that VW is mainly popular in Britain and the USA. I remember working at the W H Smith record dept as my Saturday job when I was at school. I would play VW whenever I was alone in the dept and I still remember a young Spanish man come over to me to ask what I was playing as he liked it so much. I guess that it's a question of having the opportunity to hear it in the first place.
Ah, proselytizing at a young age I see!   ;D ;)  Good for you!  :)

Hopefully things are changing.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 28, 2021, 06:19:42 AM
My dad listened to A London Symphony yesterday (the Rozhdestvensky recording) and said he loved it. I believe he also mentioned this is the first-time he's ever heard this symphony, which was kind of surprising since he loves much of this composer's work. Of course, I love it, too. I should revisit A London Symphony as its been quite some time since I heard it. I might listen to the Boult EMI (Warner) performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 01, 2021, 02:00:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 28, 2021, 06:19:42 AM
My dad listened to A London Symphony yesterday (the Rozhdestvensky recording) and said he loved it. I believe he also mentioned this is the first-time he's ever heard this symphony, which was kind of surprising since he loves much of this composer's work. Of course, I love it, too. I should revisit A London Symphony as its been quite some time since I heard it. I might listen to the Boult EMI (Warner) performance.
I love it as well. It was VW's own favourite (at least of his first eight symphonies). When I first became obsessed with VW as a teenager I listened to Boult's EMI recording over and over again. I wonder what your dad would think of the 1913 or 1920 version. I'd be interested to hear his thoughts on the extended, poetic section at the end which VW (mistakenly IMO) excised in 1936.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2021, 09:09:22 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 01, 2021, 02:00:31 AM
I love it as well. It was VW's own favourite (at least of his first eight symphonies). When I first became obsessed with VW as a teenager I listened to Boult's EMI recording over and over again. I wonder what your dad would think of the 1913 or 1920 version. I'd be interested to hear his thoughts on the extended, poetic section at the end which VW (mistakenly IMO) excised in 1936.

Sorry for the late reply, Jeffrey, but my dad said that it didn't make much of a difference what version he listened to of A London Symphony because he said whichever version he was listening to at that moment was his favorite. :) Now I know where I get my indecisiveness from! ;) :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2021, 10:09:49 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2021, 09:09:22 PM
Sorry for the late reply, Jeffrey, but my dad said that it didn't make much of a difference what version he listened to of A London Symphony because he said whichever version he was listening to at that moment was his favorite. :) Now I know where I get my indecisiveness from! ;) :D
Haha - very nice John.
I find that if I listen to the 1936 version, which I do from time-to-time, I'm acutely aware of that 'missing' section just before the end which rather spoils my enjoyment of that moving closing section, as night comes down over London again. My favourite recordings of the final version of A London Symphony are those conducted by Previn (RCA), Barbirolli (EMI) and Boult (EMI). The Boult version was the one that I 'grew up' with, first discovering it aged 17.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2021, 07:37:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2021, 10:09:49 PM
Haha - very nice John.
I find that if I listen to the 1936 version, which I do from time-to-time, I'm acutely aware of that 'missing' section just before the end which rather spoils my enjoyment of that moving closing section, as night comes down over London again. My favourite recordings of the final version of A London Symphony are those conducted by Previn (RCA), Barbirolli (EMI) and Boult (EMI). The Boult version was the one that I 'grew up' with, first discovering it aged 17.
(//)

I personally don't find myself missing any of the music that was cut out of it. The main reasoning is the final revised version is the one I cut my teeth on, so for me to hear the original version with this 'extra' music I hadn't heard before makes for a strange listening experience --- not that I completely dislike it of course. Also, RVW felt it was necessary to revise this symphony, so who am I do disagree with his decision? But there are three versions of A London Symphony to choose from and, ultimately, a listener has to make up their own mind as which version they prefer. Like you, the Boult on EMI was the first one I've heard and I still have a special affection for it. I will say that of all the recent releases of RVW that the Brabbins recording of the 1920 version of this symphony was simply outstanding in every possible way. I also loved that coupling Variations for brass band, which was a new work for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 07, 2021, 08:08:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2021, 09:09:22 PM
Sorry for the late reply, Jeffrey, but my dad said that it didn't make much of a difference what version he listened to of A London Symphony because he said whichever version he was listening to at that moment was his favorite. :) Now I know where I get my indecisiveness from! ;) :D

(* chortle *)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2021, 09:43:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 07, 2021, 07:37:27 AM
I personally don't find myself missing any of the music that was cut out of it. The main reasoning is the final revised version is the one I cut my teeth on, so for me to hear the original version with this 'extra' music I hadn't heard before makes for a strange listening experience --- not that I completely dislike it of course. Also, RVW felt it was necessary to revise this symphony, so who am I do disagree with his decision? But there are three versions of A London Symphony to choose from and, ultimately, a listener has to make up their own mind as which version they prefer. Like you, the Boult on EMI was the first one I've heard and I still have a special affection for it. I will say that of all the recent releases of RVW that the Brabbins recording of the 1920 version of this symphony was simply outstanding in every possible way. I also loved that coupling Variations for brass band, which was a new work for me.
+1 for the Brabbins recording of 'A London Symphony' (1920). That series has been great and far preferable IMO to the ones from Manze, Elder or the dreary Norrington releases.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2021, 09:50:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 07, 2021, 09:43:56 AM
+1 for the Brabbins recording of 'A London Symphony' (1920). That series has been great and far preferable IMO to the ones from Manze, Elder or the dreary Norrington releases.

Oh, those Manze recordings are just terrible --- devoid of passion and unexciting. I bought the first volume of that series, which was A London Symphony and Symphony No. 8 and never bothered to get the rest. Elder has only had one great success in RVW and that was A Pastoral Symphony. In fact, that whole disc is top-drawer. Its a shame the rest of his performances didn't live up to this one recording. It seems that the myriad of styles and musical temperaments that RVW worked with didn't quite come across as as successfully as his Elgar recordings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2021, 10:00:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 07, 2021, 09:50:59 AM
Oh, those Manze recordings are just terrible --- devoid of passion and unexciting. I bought the first volume of that series, which was A London Symphony and Symphony No. 8 and never bothered to get the rest. Elder has only had one great success in RVW and that was A Pastoral Symphony. In fact, that whole disc is top-drawer. Its a shame the rest of his performances didn't live up to this one recording. It seems that the myriad of styles and musical temperaments that RVW worked with didn't quite come across as as successfully as his Elgar recordings.
Yes, you are right about Elder's 'A Pastoral Symphony' John and that symphony was imo the best of the Norrington releases as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2021, 10:17:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 07, 2021, 10:00:48 AM
Yes, you are right about Elder's 'A Pastoral Symphony' John and that symphony was imo the best of the Norrington releases as well.

I never listened to the Norrington performances, but I know I'm not missing anything as he's not a conductor I'm impressed with generally.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 07, 2021, 12:21:51 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 07, 2021, 10:17:00 AM
I never listened to the Norrington performances, but I know I'm not missing anything as he's not a conductor I'm impressed with generally.

I'm usually front and centre of the queue to "knock Norrington".  But I have to say I found his RVW Symphonies much better than I was expecting.  Helped by very fine Decca recording.   I enjoyed his Serenade to Music as well - a genuinely stellar line-up of British singers.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2021, 12:25:18 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 07, 2021, 12:21:51 PM
I'm usually front and centre of the queue to "knock Norrington".  But I have to say I found his RVW Symphonies much better than I was expecting.  Helped by very fine Decca recording.   I enjoyed his Serenade to Music as well - a genuinely stellar line-up of British singers.

I'll take your word for it, but I own so much Vaughan Williams in incredible performances that I can't imagine Norrington ever being of interest enough to pursue his recordings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 07, 2021, 12:41:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 07, 2021, 09:43:56 AM
+1 for the Brabbins recording of 'A London Symphony' (1920). That series has been great and far preferable IMO to the ones from Manze, Elder or the dreary Norrington releases.

+1 for the 1920 which may well be my favourite London Symphony of all. But Mr Brabbins is also a priceless asset for his championing of other British and C20 composers. Here's for Sir Martyn Brabbins in due course!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2021, 10:42:19 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 07, 2021, 12:21:51 PM
I'm usually front and centre of the queue to "knock Norrington".  But I have to say I found his RVW Symphonies much better than I was expecting.  Helped by very fine Decca recording.   I enjoyed his Serenade to Music as well - a genuinely stellar line-up of British singers.
Maybe I should listen again but remember finding No.6 particularly unidiomatic. Unlike fellow admirers of VW I can't stand the 'Serenade to Music' which doesn't help either!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 07, 2021, 11:15:41 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 07, 2021, 10:42:19 PM
Maybe I should listen again but remember finding No.6 particularly unidiomatic. Unlike fellow admirers of VW I can't stand the 'Serenade to Music' which doesn't help either!

Wot wot WOT!!  Can't stand the Serenade..?!?!?! (sound of jaw hitting floor SEVERAL TIMES)  Surely one of the all-time great "occasional pieces" (now there's a thread if eve there was).  But joking aside it seems to me that is contains the very essence of RVW's pastoral/ecstatic style.  I played the violin solo part once years ago in Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral (well the Lady Chapel there actually which is bigger than most other ordinary churches) and it really was a hairs-on-the-back-of-your-neck experience.

Having bigged-up Norrington I'll have to listen to one of his discs again now just to be certain I haven't gone completely gaga without noticing....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 08, 2021, 12:36:59 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 07, 2021, 11:15:41 PM
Wot wot WOT!!  Can't stand the Serenade..?!?!?! (sound of jaw hitting floor SEVERAL TIMES)  Surely one of the all-time great "occasional pieces" (now there's a thread if eve there was).  But joking aside it seems to me that is contains the very essence of RVW's pastoral/ecstatic style.  I played the violin solo part once years ago in Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral (well the Lady Chapel there actually which is bigger than most other ordinary churches) and it really was a hairs-on-the-back-of-your-neck experience.

Having bigged-up Norrington I'll have to listen to one of his discs again now just to be certain I haven't gone completely gaga without noticing....
Hahaha
No, I really don't like it, finding it rather cloying and uncharacteristically self-congratulatory (I'm sure you all agree  8)). I much prefer the version without the singing  :o. Having said that, when I first discovered classical music and VW in particular, as a teenager, I only really listened to orchestral rather than vocal music. My attitude is now different so I must have another listen to it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 08, 2021, 12:43:20 AM
I seem to like the Elder performances more than most. Only the disc of Nos 4 & 6 was a disappointment, the rest have been top notch. I hope he completes his cycle and also that the performance of Sancta Civitas with the Halle was recorded.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 08, 2021, 01:13:39 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 08, 2021, 12:43:20 AM
I seem to like the Elder performances more than most. Only the disc of Nos 4 & 6 was a disappointment, the rest have been top notch. I hope he completes his cycle and also that the performance of Sancta Civitas with the Halle was recorded.
I recall 4 and 6 as particularly disappointing (+ dreary cover art) but 'A Pastoral Symphony' was VG.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 08, 2021, 07:31:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 08, 2021, 01:13:39 AM
I recall 4 and 6 as particularly disappointing (+ dreary cover art) but 'A Pastoral Symphony' was VG.

Yep, I own all of the Elder releases so far and only the A Pastoral Symphony recording delivers the goods. If I remember correctly, as it's been quite some since I've listened to the recording, that the Pastoral was coupled with Five Variants of 'Dives and Lazarus' and the Tallis Fantasia.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 08, 2021, 08:45:11 AM
Revisiting RVW 6 in this version

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81hlhuz0MrL._SS500_.jpg)

non-Norringtons look away now...... I do like it.  Far from conventional; tempi pushed to relative extremes and for sure some mannered phrasing but overall aninteresting version well worth a listen and not one to be dismissed out of hand.  As I'd remembered helped in no small part by very alert LPO playing and fine DECCA engineering.  Some inner parts and counter-melodies given unfamiliar prominence in an intriguing way. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 08, 2021, 08:49:54 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 08, 2021, 08:45:11 AM
Revisiting RVW 6 in this version

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81hlhuz0MrL._SS500_.jpg)

non-Norringtons look away now...... I do like it.  Far from conventional; tempi pushed to relative extremes and for sure some mannered phrasing but overall aninteresting version well worth a listen and not one to be dismissed out of hand.  As I'd remembered helped in no small part by very alert LPO playing and fine DECCA engineering.  Some inner parts and counter-melodies given unfamiliar prominence in an intriguing way.
Interesting booklet essay and nice photo of VW in the booklet if I remember correctly! I recall Norrington saying that he wanted to present VW as a mainstream 'European' rather than British composer but I just found it weirdly unidiomatic.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 08, 2021, 08:57:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 08, 2021, 08:49:54 AM
Interesting booklet essay and nice photo of VW in the booklet if I remember correctly! I recall Norrington saying that he wanted to present VW as a mainstream 'European' rather than British composer but I just found it weirdly unidiomatic.

Extracting the Britishness from a British composer, how....odd. Even with Rozhdestvensky's cycle with his Russian forces, the nationality of the composer is never in question. It's bizarre that someone would try to interpret this music any other way. What next? Will Norrington try and conduct Copland and make him sound more European than American? Will he smooth over the Shaker tune 'Simple Gifts' in Appalachian Spring to make it sound more Germanic? ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 08, 2021, 09:42:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2021, 08:57:00 AM
Extracting the Britishness from a British composer, how....odd. Even with Rozhdestvensky's cycle with his Russian forces, the nationality of the composer is never in question. It's bizarre that someone would try to interpret this music any other way. What next? Will Norrington try and conduct Copland and make him sound more European than American? Will he smooth over the Shaker tune 'Simple Gifts' in Appalachian Spring to make it sound more Germanic? ::)

As I say I'm no Norrington apologist - but I hear none of this "non-Britishness".  Not sure a) what that means and b) how it would be achieved.  By all means don't like it - but DON'T don't like it without having actually heard it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 08, 2021, 03:05:14 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 08, 2021, 09:42:15 AM
As I say I'm no Norrington apologist - but I hear none of this "non-Britishness".  Not sure a) what that means and b) how it would be achieved.  By all means don't like it - but DON'T don't like it without having actually heard it!

Listen to Vaughan Williams and then listen Mahler. Which one sounds more British? Even if you didn't know where either composer came from, you'll know exactly what I mean when you hear them. Nationality within music is something that, for me, is more about a feeling rather than something that I can put into words. It's something that is identifiable. As I've said earlier, I'm not enamored nor impressed with Norrington's conducting, but this isn't without experience. I've heard the man conduct Holst, Mahler et. al. I wasn't enthralled by what I heard and that should be enough to formulate an opinion on him. I would rather rip the hairs out of my head than listening to another one of his horrible recordings!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 09, 2021, 02:24:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2021, 03:05:14 PM
Listen to Vaughan Williams and then listen Mahler. Which one sounds more British? Even if you didn't know where either composer came from, you'll know exactly what I mean when you hear them. Nationality within music is something that, for me, is more about a feeling rather than something that I can put into words. It's something that is identifiable. As I've said earlier, I'm not enamored nor impressed Norrington's conducting, but this isn't without experience. I've heard the man conduct Holst, Mahler et. al. I wasn't enthralled by what I heard and that should be enough to formulate an opinion on him. I would rather rip the hairs out of my head than listening to another one of his horrible recordings!

I second that. I have also heard him live in Mozart, Brahms and Schutz and it was uniformly ghastly. His arid Mahler 9 doesn't bear thinking about.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on June 09, 2021, 06:06:07 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 09, 2021, 02:24:21 AM
I second that. I have also heard him live in Mozart, Brahms and Schutz and it was uniformly ghastly. His arid Mahler 9 doesn't bear thinking about.

The thing with some artists is that sometimes a couple of listenings to what they do is enough to turn you off for good of anything that has their name on it. Norrington is one such case. Even when he is not bad I find him irritating. A rare talent indeed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on June 13, 2021, 05:24:42 AM
Revisiting the 1913 version of Symphony #2, and am moved again not only because of the inventiveness and richness of the music, but also of the way this sounds in my headphones. I know little about the skill of recording engineers but this exceeds my expectations each time I hear it.

I know that lists change, preferences shift and mood when listening is important, but RVW's London Symphony is probably my favourite piece of music right now.

Hearing his #3 in the same cycle is not far behind. Cows and gates aside, this music is grounding and restorative in ways that few others achieve for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 13, 2021, 08:01:05 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 13, 2021, 05:24:42 AM
Revisiting the 1913 version of Symphony #2, and am moved again not only because of the inventiveness and richness of the music, but also of the way this sounds in my headphones. I know little about the skill of recording engineers but this exceeds my expectations each time I hear it.

I know that lists change, preferences shift and mood when listening is important, but RVW's London Symphony is probably my favourite piece of music right now.

Hearing his #3 in the same cycle is not far behind. Cows and gates aside, this music is grounding and restorative in ways that few others achieve for me.
+1  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2021, 08:45:43 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 13, 2021, 08:01:05 AM
+1  :)
+2  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2021, 10:57:35 AM
Thoroughly enjoying this CD tonight (it can also be found on Naxos):
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 13, 2021, 08:35:31 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 13, 2021, 10:57:35 AM
Thoroughly enjoying this CD tonight (it can also be found on Naxos):
(//)

I don't listen to film music very often, but I like that Three Portraits from the England of Elizabeth quite a bit. It was featured in the Previn cycle of symphonies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2021, 11:10:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 13, 2021, 08:35:31 PM
I don't listen to film music very often, but I like that Three Portraits from the England of Elizabeth quite a bit. It was featured in the Previn cycle of symphonies.
Previn's performance is the best I think. Christo likes the Three Portraits as well.
I forgot to mention that I do like Elder's 'Job' and 'Songs of Travel'.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 14, 2021, 09:24:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 13, 2021, 11:10:00 PM
Previn's performance is the best I think. Christo likes the Three Portraits as well.
I forgot to mention that I do like Elder's 'Job' and 'Songs of Travel'.
(//)

Excellent, Jeffrey. I need to listen to that Elder Job and Songs of Travel recording. It's still in its' plastic wrap... :-[
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2021, 11:11:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2021, 09:24:54 AM
Excellent, Jeffrey. I need to listen to that Elder Job and Songs of Travel recording. It's still in its' plastic wrap... :-[
Oh yes, it needs to come out of the plastic wrap John  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 14, 2021, 11:26:06 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2021, 11:11:21 AM
Oh yes, it needs to come out of the plastic wrap John  ;D

In due course, Jeffrey. One of the tests for a good performance of Job for me is the movement Job's Dream. If Elder doesn't nail the poetry of this movement, then all hope is lost. :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 14, 2021, 12:23:22 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2021, 11:11:21 AM
Oh yes, it needs to come out of the plastic wrap John  ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2021, 11:26:06 AM
In due course, Jeffrey. One of the tests for a good performance of Job for me is the movement Job's Dream. If Elder doesn't nail the poetry of this movement, then all hope is lost. :D

I must admit, Job is one of my least favorite pieces by him (pardon, not trying to rain on your parade).  I should revisit it.

PD

p.s. If you're interested, my favorite works by him (off the top of my head):  his symphonies (Sorry, but not keen on his "A Sea Symphony"), Lark, Tallis (pardon, but I'm trying to save typing!), ....what else?  I enjoy his Norfolk Rhapsodies.. his Hodie....love the Baker "English Song Anthology"...will have to think further.  English Folk Song Suite..Greensleeves..Dives and Lazarus.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 14, 2021, 12:27:13 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 14, 2021, 12:23:22 PM
I must admit, Job is one of my least favorite pieces by him (pardon, not trying to rain on your parade).  I should revisit it.

PD

p.s. If you're interested, my favorite works by him (off the top of my head):  his symphonies (Sorry, but not keen on his "A Sea Symphony"), Lark, Tallis (pardon, but I'm trying to save typing!), ....what else?  I enjoy his Norfolk Rhapsodies.. his Hodie....love the Baker "English Song Anthology"...will have to think further.  English Folk Song Suite..Greensleeves..Dives and Lazarus.

No need apologizing, PD. Job isn't for everyone. I loved it on first-listen I will say. Have you heard Flos campi or Five Mystical Songs? I must count these pieces amongst my favorite RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2021, 12:32:58 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 14, 2021, 12:23:22 PM
I must admit, Job is one of my least favorite pieces by him (pardon, not trying to rain on your parade).  I should revisit it.

PD

p.s. If you're interested, my favorite works by him (off the top of my head):  his symphonies (Sorry, but not keen on his "A Sea Symphony"), Lark, Tallis (pardon, but I'm trying to save typing!), ....what else?  I enjoy his Norfolk Rhapsodies.. his Hodie....love the Baker "English Song Anthology"...will have to think further.  English Folk Song Suite..Greensleeves..Dives and Lazarus.
No need to be sorry at all PD. It took me decades to 'get' 'A Sea Symphony'. Dives and Lazarus is one of my favourites as well. I'd also recommend Sancta Civitas, Epithalamion and Dona Nobis Pacem.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roy Bland on June 15, 2021, 03:33:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2021, 12:32:58 AM
No need to be sorry at all PD. It took me decades to 'get' 'A Sea Symphony'. Dives and Lazarus is one of my favourites as well. I'd also recommend Sancta Civitas, Epithalamion and Dona Nobis Pacem.
IMHO Sea Symphony  reflects the wild and even emphatic vitality of Whitman's verses


























Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 15, 2021, 03:50:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2021, 12:27:13 PM
No need apologizing, PD. Job isn't for everyone. I loved it on first-listen I will say. Have you heard Flos campi or Five Mystical Songs? I must count these pieces amongst my favorite RVW.
It's been ages since I've visited Flos Campi to be honest.  I should revisit it.  By the way, in my haste to post works of VW's that I love, I had forgotten that that Janet Baker album that I enjoy also has a number of other English composers on it too! lol  :-[  I do enjoy the two that are on there:  "The Call" from Five Mystical Songs and also there's "Youth and Love" from Songs of Travel which I enjoy.  It's a wonderful album...love the Finzi and a bunch of others on there too.  Do you two know that album?  Here's a photo of it:

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.0lzZhmwwsyXW0C-ZJqElgQHaHZ%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

Below is the CD that I own of it on Regis:

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.1fl9xD53Pu_R-i7V3MieigAAAA%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2021, 12:32:58 AM
No need to be sorry at all PD. It took me decades to 'get' 'A Sea Symphony'. Dives and Lazarus is one of my favourites as well. I'd also recommend Sancta Civitas, Epithalamion and Dona Nobis Pacem.

I do very much like his Dona Nobis Pacem but seldom listen to it due to the powerful and solemn message in it.  Forget what my reactions were to Sancta Civitas.  Hadn't heard of Epithalamion before now.

PD
[/quote]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on June 15, 2021, 05:27:40 AM
Quote from: Roy Bland on June 15, 2021, 03:33:50 AM
IMHO Sea Symphony  reflects the wild and even emphatic vitality of Whitman's verses

I love RVW, and also have a deep appreciation for WW. I am still to fully appreciate them as a unit. The enthusiastic efforts of the soprano in the first movement reminding the listener of 'sea-captains, young or old' and subsequent choral gymnastics has made me wish, at times, that I could be with those 'Pick'd sparingly without noise' to be drowned.

Doubtless my philistinism and limited love for choral music is partly to blame, but I am yet to love all of the nuances of this huge work. The second and final movements have always been more enjoyable to this listener. I hope to have more decades to rectify this.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2021, 05:35:28 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 15, 2021, 05:27:40 AM
I love RVW, and also have a deep appreciation for WW. I am still to fully appreciate them as a unit. The enthusiastic efforts of the soprano in the first movement reminding the listener of 'sea-captains, young or old' and subsequent choral gymnastics has made me wish, at times, that I could be with those 'Pick'd sparingly without noise' to be drowned.

Doubtless my philistinism and limited love for choral music is partly to blame, but I am yet to love all of the nuances of this huge work. The second and final movements have always been more enjoyable to this listener. I hope to have more decades to rectify this.
I definitely think that the best music is in the final movement.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 15, 2021, 07:04:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2021, 05:35:28 AM
I definitely think that the best music is in the final movement.

+ 1

This is some outstanding Vaughan Williams, IMHO. But, to be honest, I never had any issues with A Sea Symphony. I actually rather like it. I like all of RVW's symphonies, it's just that I love some more than others.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 15, 2021, 07:17:29 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 14, 2021, 12:23:22 PM
I must admit, Job is one of my least favorite pieces by him (pardon, not trying to rain on your parade).  I should revisit it.

PD

p.s. If you're interested, my favorite works by him (off the top of my head):  his symphonies (Sorry, but not keen on his "A Sea Symphony"), Lark, Tallis (pardon, but I'm trying to save typing!), ....what else?  I enjoy his Norfolk Rhapsodies.. his Hodie....love the Baker "English Song Anthology"...will have to think further.  English Folk Song Suite..Greensleeves..Dives and Lazarus.

I was quite shocked how much our good friend Lee who loves RVW with a passion dislikes "The Lark" PD.

The Janet Baker album you mention is outstanding. Vaughan Williams was the best English composer of songs in my opinion. Also very good is "Songs of Travel" which I believe to be the first recording by John Shirley-Quirk.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 15, 2021, 07:38:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2021, 12:32:58 AM
No need to be sorry at all PD. It took me decades to 'get' 'A Sea Symphony'. Dives and Lazarus is one of my favourites as well. I'd also recommend Sancta Civitas, Epithalamion and Dona Nobis Pacem.

A huge +1 to Santa Civitas and Dona Nobis Pacem. Extremely fine works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on June 17, 2021, 03:30:23 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2021, 12:27:13 PM
No need apologizing, PD. Job isn't for everyone. I loved it on first-listen I will say. Have you heard Flos campi or Five Mystical Songs? I must count these pieces amongst my favorite RVW.

I concur. Quality.

Flos Campi sounds great here. The particular pleasure of this release, for me, is the Household Music. If you like that sort of thing, there is a particularly fine hymn by Vernon Higham, 'I saw a new vision of Jesus', set to the tune of the first piece. As for Dives and Lazarus (not part of this release, obvs), there is something sublime, I think.

Whatever one's take on spiritual things, RVW has an uncommon ability to elevate and beautify. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 17, 2021, 06:00:25 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 17, 2021, 03:30:23 AM
I concur. Quality.

Flos Campi sounds great here. The particular pleasure of this release, for me, is the Household Music. If you like that sort of thing, there is a particularly fine hymn by Vernon Higham, 'I saw a new vision of Jesus', set to the tune of the first piece. As for Dives and Lazarus (not part of this release, obvs), there is something sublime, I think.

Whatever one's take on spiritual things, RVW has an uncommon ability to elevate and beautify.

I'm not too familiar with Household Music. I own the recording you posted (w/ Hickox), so I'll have to dig it out and give it a listen. Yes, I certainly agree that he had a special gift into turning something that perhaps on its own doesn't sound like much into something magical and otherworldly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 17, 2021, 11:47:27 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 17, 2021, 03:30:23 AM
I concur. Quality.

Flos Campi sounds great here. The particular pleasure of this release, for me, is the Household Music. If you like that sort of thing, there is a particularly fine hymn by Vernon Higham, 'I saw a new vision of Jesus', set to the tune of the first piece. As for Dives and Lazarus (not part of this release, obvs), there is something sublime, I think.

Whatever one's take on spiritual things, RVW has an uncommon ability to elevate and beautify.
That's a fine CD - also for 'Riders to the Sea' - one of the few operas that I enjoy.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2021, 05:25:13 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 15, 2021, 07:17:29 AM
I was quite shocked how much our good friend Lee who loves RVW with a passion dislikes "The Lark" PD.

The Janet Baker album you mention is outstanding. Vaughan Williams was the best English composer of songs in my opinion. Also very good is "Songs of Travel" which I believe to be the first recording by John Shirley-Quirk.
Good to hear that you also enjoy that Baker album!  I expect that you have the original Saga release?  Out of curiosity, any idea of when it was first released, did they press many copies of it?  I don't know off hand what year it came out and how well known Janet Baker was then (I'm guessing though 'well').  Is it very easy to find decent copies of it at a good price?

And, yes, that John Shirley-Quirk is a very nice one too.  :)  Sadly, they don't say anything about the singer nor the pianist in the liner notes....unless there was something else on either the inner sleeve or there was an insert?  I suspect that I don't have the original inner sleeve.

PD

p.s.  I have both Saga 5211 (stereo) and XID 5211.  Oh, I did notice that on the XID one, that on the back at the top it says "Debut Series No. 4", so it sounds like you're correct about it being his first album.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 21, 2021, 12:51:50 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2021, 05:25:13 AM
Good to hear that you also enjoy that Baker album!  I expect that you have the original Saga release?  Out of curiosity, any idea of when it was first released, did they press many copies of it?  I don't know off hand what year it came out and how well known Janet Baker was then (I'm guessing though 'well').  Is it very easy to find decent copies of it at a good price?

And, yes, that John Shirley-Quirk is a very nice one too.  :)  Sadly, they don't say anything about the singer nor the pianist in the liner notes....unless there was something else on either the inner sleeve or there was an insert?  I suspect that I don't have the original inner sleeve.

PD

p.s.  I have both Saga 5211 (stereo) and XID 5211.  Oh, I did notice that on the XID one, that on the back at the top it says "Debut Series No. 4", so it sounds like you're correct about it being his first album.  :)

You are right! It does say "Debut Series NO.4". You are much more observant then me! I see that the Shirley-Quirk is XID 5211 and Baker XID 5213. So released at same or similar time?

Do you have "A Pageant of English Song" with Janet Baker and Gerald Moore?

You mention "Youth and Love" being a favourite. It is one of mine too. :)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 21, 2021, 03:27:18 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 21, 2021, 12:51:50 AM
You are right! It does say "Debut Series NO.4". You are much more observant then me! I see that the Shirley-Quirk is XID 5211 and Baker XID 5213. So released at same or similar time?

Do you have "A Pageant of English Song" with Janet Baker and Gerald Moore?

You mention "Youth and Love" being a favourite. It is one of mine too. :)
No, I don't have that album.  As far as LPs go, I only have a few with her singing on them (operas).   I have about a half-dozen CDs (or boxed sets).  It appears (after doing a bit of googling) that I have Side 1 (or most of it?  Trying to find a listing of all of the songs on it) of Pageant as part of my EMI Icon set.  According to a Gramophone excerpt here:  https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7945443--janet-baker-haydn-beethoven-scottish-folk-song-arrangements  Pageant was her first solo album for EMI.  Trying to see whether or not she has her own thread?

PD

EDIT:  p.s.  I found her thread and copied the info there too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 02, 2021, 01:35:57 PM
'RVW from America' Forgotten recordings from the 1950s. This will be one of my records of the year! How exciting to discover a hitherto unknown/forgotten batch of recordings of major works like the Concerto for Two Pianos, Flos Campi and one of my favourites, the late, craggy and quirky 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' which I assumed had only been recorded once by Boult with Peter Katin. This version has a prominent part for organ. As I wrote on WAYLTN thread this was supposed to have a release date of 23rd July but it turned up today!  :) I only ordered it (from Albion Records) yesterday, although had I ordered it from the RVW Society (of which I am a member) I could have saved myself £3.00. Vaughan Williams himself apparently greatly admired the recording of Flos Campi which, whilst closely miked, is wonderfully atmospheric and very moving - as good as any I have heard. The 35 page accompanying booklet is full of useful information about the recordings, performers and the works themselves and includes some fine photographs of VW himself:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on July 03, 2021, 09:39:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 02, 2021, 01:35:57 PM
'RVW from America' Forgotten recordings from the 1950s. This will be one of my records of the year! How exciting to discover a hitherto unknown/forgotten batch of recordings of major works like the Concerto for Two Pianos, Flos Campi and one of my favourites, the late, craggy and quirky 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' which I assumed had only been recorded once by Boult with Peter Katin. This version has a prominent part for organ. As I wrote on WAYLTN thread this was supposed to have a release date of 23rd July but it turned up today!  :) I only ordered it (from Albion Records) yesterday, although had I ordered it from the RVW Society (of which I am a member) I could have saved myself £3.00. Vaughan Williams himself apparently greatly admired the recording of Flos Campi which, whilst closely miked, is wonderfully atmospheric and very moving - as good as any I have heard. The 35 page accompanying booklet is full of useful information about the recordings, performers and the works themselves and includes some fine photographs of VW himself:
(//)

This sounds like an excellent purchase! Enjoy it 🙂
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 03, 2021, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 03, 2021, 09:39:29 AM
This sounds like an excellent purchase! Enjoy it 🙂
I'm delighted with it Danny, probably my favourite Albion release. I never thought I'd hear an alternative recording, featuring a prominent organ part, of the 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' - which I've known and loved since I bought the Boult EMI boxed set as a 17 year old, where it was coupled with the 9th Symphony. Also the premiere recording of the Concerto for Two Pianos is well worth having as well as a recording of Flos Campi greatly admired by Vaughan Williams himself.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on July 04, 2021, 12:52:46 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 03, 2021, 01:51:26 PM
I'm delighted with it Danny, probably my favourite Albion release. I never thought I'd hear an alternative recording, featuring a prominent organ part, of the 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' - which I've known and loved since I bought the Boult EMI boxed set as a 17 year old, where it was coupled with the 9th Symphony. Also the premiere recording of the Concerto for Two Pianos is well worth having as well as a recording of Flos Campi greatly admired by Vaughan Williams himself.
(//)

I love your rich experience of RVW's music, and was only reading yesterday some of your contributions to the RVW Society magazine.

I hope to be able to hear this Albion recording when I come to the end of my current listening projects. Rich opportunities ahead!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on July 05, 2021, 12:02:06 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 02, 2021, 01:35:57 PM
'RVW from America' Forgotten recordings from the 1950s. This will be one of my records of the year! How exciting to discover a hitherto unknown/forgotten batch of recordings of major works like the Concerto for Two Pianos, Flos Campi and one of my favourites, the late, craggy and quirky 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' which I assumed had only been recorded once by Boult with Peter Katin. This version has a prominent part for organ. As I wrote on WAYLTN thread this was supposed to have a release date of 23rd July but it turned up today!  :) I only ordered it (from Albion Records) yesterday, although had I ordered it from the RVW Society (of which I am a member) I could have saved myself £3.00. Vaughan Williams himself apparently greatly admired the recording of Flos Campi which, whilst closely miked, is wonderfully atmospheric and very moving - as good as any I have heard. The 35 page accompanying booklet is full of useful information about the recordings, performers and the works themselves and includes some fine photographs of VW himself:
(//)
Great news indeed!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2021, 03:19:33 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 04, 2021, 12:52:46 PM
I love your rich experience of RVW's music, and was only reading yesterday some of your contributions to the RVW Society magazine.

I hope to be able to hear this Albion recording when I come to the end of my current listening projects. Rich opportunities ahead!
Oh, that's nice. I meant to write something for them on VW's film music but other stuff (work, home etc) got in the way. I might write them a letter on how much I liked the VW from America CD - arguably my favourite Albion release (and I have collected most of them). I've been playing it a lot and the sequence of the Double PC, Flos Campi and 'Fantasia on the Old I04th' make a great programme. I'm less keen on the folk songs.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2021, 03:20:14 AM
Quote from: Christo on July 05, 2021, 12:02:06 AM
Great news indeed!
And great news to see you posting here Johan!
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: VonStupp on July 05, 2021, 07:10:42 AM
A Cotswold Romance
Death of Tintagiles
LPO Choir & LSO - Sir Richard Hickox


I was really caught off guard by Cotswold here; what wonderful music. This performance is quite excellent too.

I am completely unfamiliar with Hugh the Drover, which this cantata is based off of, but it makes me want to search out Sir Charles Groves' performance on EMI.

Any strong feelings here regarding VW's Hugh, or should I stick to the rustic earthiness that I enjoyed in Cotswold's truncated choral cantata?

(https://ia801400.us.archive.org/6/items/mbid-f4245ce0-6827-4879-b083-772c35801e0c/mbid-f4245ce0-6827-4879-b083-772c35801e0c-29781793259.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2021, 11:24:29 PM
Quote from: VonStupp on July 05, 2021, 07:10:42 AM
A Cotswold Romance
Death of Tintagiles
LPO Choir & LSO - Sir Richard Hickox


I was really caught off guard by Cotswold here; what wonderful music. This performance is quite excellent too.

I am completely unfamiliar with Hugh the Drover, which this cantata is based off of, but it makes me want to search out Sir Charles Groves' performance on EMI.

Any strong feelings here regarding VW's Hugh, or should I stick to the rustic earthiness that I enjoyed in Cotswold's truncated choral cantata?

(https://ia801400.us.archive.org/6/items/mbid-f4245ce0-6827-4879-b083-772c35801e0c/mbid-f4245ce0-6827-4879-b083-772c35801e0c-29781793259.jpg)
I'm not an opera fan but the 'Pilgrim's Progress' is arguably Vaughan Williams's greatest work. I've been very fortunate to see a staged or semi-staged version twice - a very moving experience. 'Riders to the Sea' is also excellent and very moving - I saw a semi-staged version some years ago. It is quite short and there are some fine recordings. I could never get on with 'Hugh the Drover', 'Sir John in Love' and 'The Poisoned Kiss'. I found Hugh to be too 'Hey nonny no' (I can't stand Morris dancing) and smacking of 'Ye Olde English tea shoppe' but that is my own prejudice. I recall enjoying the CD that you posted of extracts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: VonStupp on July 06, 2021, 04:34:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 05, 2021, 11:24:29 PM
I'm not an opera fan but the 'Pilgrim's Progress' is arguably Vaughan Williams's greatest work. I've been very fortunate to see a staged or semi-staged version twice - a very moving experience. 'Riders to the Sea' is also excellent and very moving - I saw a semi-staged version some years ago. It is quite short and there are some fine recordings. I could never get on with 'Hugh the Drover', 'Sir John in Love' and 'The Poisoned Kiss'. I found Hugh to be too 'Hey nonny no' (I can't stand Morris dancing) and smacking of 'Ye Olde English tea shoppe' but that is my own prejudice. I recall enjoying the CD that you posted of extracts.

Thank you for the brief survey; Vaughan Williams' operas are a definite blind spot in what I have heard from him.
VS
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2021, 05:15:03 AM
Quote from: VonStupp on July 06, 2021, 04:34:59 AM
Thank you for the brief survey; Vaughan Williams' operas are a definite blind spot in what I have heard from him.
VS
Well, I'd definitely recommended the hauntingly atmospheric one Act opera 'Riders to the Sea' and Pilgrim's Progress.

PS The CD below is marvellous - not just for the opera but also for 'Epithalamion' - a most beautiful and neglected work (Christo is a fan as well)

PPS You can get it for under $3.00 on Amazon.com.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: VonStupp on July 06, 2021, 05:24:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2021, 05:15:03 AM
Well, I'd definitely recommended the hauntingly atmospheric one Act opera 'Riders to the Sea' and Pilgrim's Progress.

PS The CD below is marvellous - not just for the opera but also for 'Epithalamion' - a most beautiful and neglected work (Christo is a fan as well):
(//)

I will check it out. Between Lyrita, Albion, Hyperion, and Chandos, there is such a daunting amount of Vaughan Williams (and his contemporaries) to explore, not even taking into consideration all of the old EMI recordings and niche re-licenses from Unicorn, Alto, and their ilk. Thanks again; I look forward to hearing them!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 06, 2021, 04:24:23 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 02, 2021, 01:35:57 PM
'RVW from America' Forgotten recordings from the 1950s. This will be one of my records of the year! How exciting to discover a hitherto unknown/forgotten batch of recordings of major works like the Concerto for Two Pianos, Flos Campi and one of my favourites, the late, craggy and quirky 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' which I assumed had only been recorded once by Boult with Peter Katin. This version has a prominent part for organ. As I wrote on WAYLTN thread this was supposed to have a release date of 23rd July but it turned up today!  :) I only ordered it (from Albion Records) yesterday, although had I ordered it from the RVW Society (of which I am a member) I could have saved myself £3.00. Vaughan Williams himself apparently greatly admired the recording of Flos Campi which, whilst closely miked, is wonderfully atmospheric and very moving - as good as any I have heard. The 35 page accompanying booklet is full of useful information about the recordings, performers and the works themselves and includes some fine photographs of VW himself:
(//)

Nice!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2021, 09:51:07 PM
Quote from: VonStupp on July 06, 2021, 05:24:32 AM
I will check it out. Between Lyrita, Albion, Hyperion, and Chandos, there is such a daunting amount of Vaughan Williams (and his contemporaries) to explore, not even taking into consideration all of the old EMI recordings and niche re-licenses from Unicorn, Alto, and their ilk. Thanks again; I look forward to hearing them!

I agree but the CD I posted above ('Epithalamion' etc) is very special - also the booklet features a great painting of VW!
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 07, 2021, 02:55:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 02, 2021, 01:35:57 PM
'RVW from America' Forgotten recordings from the 1950s. This will be one of my records of the year! How exciting to discover a hitherto unknown/forgotten batch of recordings of major works like the Concerto for Two Pianos, Flos Campi and one of my favourites, the late, craggy and quirky 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' which I assumed had only been recorded once by Boult with Peter Katin. This version has a prominent part for organ. As I wrote on WAYLTN thread this was supposed to have a release date of 23rd July but it turned up today!  :) I only ordered it (from Albion Records) yesterday, although had I ordered it from the RVW Society (of which I am a member) I could have saved myself £3.00. Vaughan Williams himself apparently greatly admired the recording of Flos Campi which, whilst closely miked, is wonderfully atmospheric and very moving - as good as any I have heard. The 35 page accompanying booklet is full of useful information about the recordings, performers and the works themselves and includes some fine photographs of VW himself:
(//)
I googled it to find out a bit more about it (hard to read who all the recordings were with), and found this very nice upload to youtube which includes music samples as well as a bit of information about the performers.  You can watch it here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0tYahIfnQ0

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 07, 2021, 03:00:51 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 07, 2021, 02:55:02 AM
I googled it to find out a bit more about it (hard to read who all the recordings were with), and found this very nice upload to youtube which includes music samples as well as a bit of information about the performers.  You can watch it here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0tYahIfnQ0

PD

Thanks for posting the link. Very interesting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 07, 2021, 03:21:30 AM
You're welcome Biffo!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 07, 2021, 03:31:28 AM
I've really been enjoying the 'Forgotten VW Recordings from the USA' CD. One of my discs of the year.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 07, 2021, 05:17:38 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 07, 2021, 03:31:28 AM
I've really been enjoying the 'Forgotten VW Recordings from the USA' CD. One of my discs of the year.

Great to read, Jeffrey. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 07, 2021, 05:20:05 PM
A special head-nod and high-five for Riders to the Sea --- a haunting, brooding opera that I think I may very well prefer to any of the other operas I've heard (i. e. Sir John in Love, The Poisoned Kiss and The Pilgrim's Progress).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 07, 2021, 05:22:28 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 07, 2021, 05:20:05 PM
A special head-nod and high-five for Riders to the Sea --- a haunting, brooding opera that I think I may very well prefer to any of the other operas I've heard (i. e. Sir John in Love, The Poisoned Kiss and The Pilgrim's Progress).

Riders to the Sea is brilliant.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 07, 2021, 05:30:25 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2021, 05:22:28 PM
Riders to the Sea is brilliant.

Indeed! I should revisit it at some juncture.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: VonStupp on July 08, 2021, 03:41:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2021, 09:51:07 PM
I agree but the CD I posted above ('Epithalamion' etc) is very special - also the booklet features a great painting of VW!
(//)

A great picture! I will seek this out.

VS
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 08, 2021, 04:51:37 AM
Quote from: VonStupp on July 08, 2021, 03:41:38 AM
A great picture! I will seek this out.

VS
Excellent!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2021, 12:05:12 AM
I'm listening to the fascinating Cincinnati SO/Eugene Goossens recording of 'A London Symphony' and greatly enjoying it. It's rather faster than usual (transferred from 78 RPM discs) but most importantly it was the first CD release of the 1920 version which included the 'missing' sections excised in 1936. I also came across a letter from VW to that great anglophile Bernard Herrmann, apparently inviting him and the then Mrs Herrmann over to tea (It's difficult to read VW's writing) and, in the details below a reference to Herrmann complaining about VW's removal of his favourite section from the slow movement:
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/16761/lot/214/

The CD also contains a v successful transfer IMO of VW's own recording of his 4th Symphony, recorded in 1937.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 21, 2021, 03:41:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 21, 2021, 12:05:12 AM
I'm listening to the fascinating Cincinnati SO/Eugene Goossens recording of 'A London Symphony' and greatly enjoying it. It's rather faster than usual (transferred from 78 RPM discs) but most importantly it was the first CD release of the 1920 version which included the 'missing' sections excised in 1936. I also came across a letter from VW to that great anglophile Bernard Herrmann, apparently inviting him and the then Mrs Herrmann over to tea (It's difficult to read VW's writing) and, in the details below a reference to Herrmann complaining about VW's removal of his favourite section from the slow movement:
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/16761/lot/214/

The CD also contains a v successful transfer IMO of VW's own recording of his 4th Symphony, recorded in 1937.
(//)

Some great restorations on KlassicHaus including real rarities.  I must admit for this kind of 'vintage' restoration I'm happy to have FLAC files rather than hard-copy CD's.  For some reason this RVW is only offered as a CD by KlassicHaus (but the online sample sounds very fine...)  These are the people to approach for high quality transfers of the Downes/Bax 3 and the Tjeknavorian/Khatchaturian 1.........
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2021, 04:16:33 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 21, 2021, 03:41:59 AM
Some great restorations on KlassicHaus including real rarities.  I must admit for this kind of 'vintage' restoration I'm happy to have FLAC files rather than hard-copy CD's.  For some reason this RVW is only offered as a CD by KlassicHaus (but the online sample sounds very fine...)  These are the people to approach for high quality transfers of the Downes/Bax 3 and the Tjeknavorian/Khatchaturian 1.........

I've already done that Re: Bax but there were huge problems about it I remember. Lyrita were interested at one time as Downes's son was a big chief down there. When I was communicating with him about it I had no idea who he was, having not put 2 + 2 together  ::).

PS Gruner-Hegg's unrivalled recording of Klaus Egge's 1st Symphony would be another candidate.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 06:42:35 AM
I listened to the opening of what sounded like an excellent performance of 'A London Symphony' on You Tube and, to my surprise, discovered that it was Norrington's recording. I say this as I've been rather dismissive of Norrington's VW up until now, although 'A Pastoral Symphony' was better than the others. Anyway I'm listening again to some of his recordings. This Symphony has always meant a lot to me since I was 17 due to my love of VW and of London, where I grew up. We had sad news today as we heard that my nice brother-in-law in Sweden passed away yesterday (he had been ill for many years) and I needed to hear something familiar and consoling:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 12, 2021, 07:37:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 06:42:35 AM
I listened to the opening of what sounded like an excellent performance of 'A London Symphony' on You Tube and, to my surprise, discovered that it was Norrington's recording. I say this as I've been rather dismissive of Norrington's VW up until now, although 'A Pastoral Symphony' was better than the others. Anyway I'm listening again to some of his recordings. This Symphony has always meant a lot to me since I was 17 due to my love of VW and of London, where I grew up. We had sad news today as we heard that my nice brother-in-law in Sweden passed away yesterday (he had been ill for many years) and I needed to hear something familiar and consoling:
(//)
I'm very sorry for your loss Jeffrey.  My condolences to you and your family.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on August 12, 2021, 07:40:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 06:42:35 AM
This Symphony has always meant a lot to me since I was 17 due to my love of VW and of London, where I grew up. We had sad news today as we heard that my nice brother-in-law in Sweden passed away yesterday (he had been ill for many years) and I needed to hear something familiar and consoling:
(//)

Sorry to hear this news  :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on August 12, 2021, 08:17:07 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 12, 2021, 07:37:13 AM
I'm very sorry for your loss Jeffrey.  My condolences to you and your family.

PD

+1.

You've mentioned him a few times, I guess you were close. Condolences, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 12, 2021, 11:39:33 AM
Music can be such a support in times of sadness and loss......

I think I mentioned earlier on this thread that Norrington's RVW is a LOT better than contemporary reviews would have you think.  Like many others here I am NO Norrington fan - but his RVW is very good - helped by great playing and recording it must be said.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 11:46:13 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 12, 2021, 07:37:13 AM
I'm very sorry for your loss Jeffrey.  My condolences to you and your family.

PD
Thanks very much PD - much appreciated.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on August 12, 2021, 11:48:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 11:46:13 AM
Thanks very much PD - much appreciated.

My condolences to your wife and to you, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 11:50:37 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on August 12, 2021, 07:40:45 AM
Sorry to hear this news  :(
Many thanks Danny.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 11:51:21 AM
Quote from: André on August 12, 2021, 08:17:07 AM
+1.

You've mentioned him a few times, I guess you were close. Condolences, Jeffrey.
Thank you André.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 11:53:16 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on August 12, 2021, 11:24:49 AM
Oh that's an excellent recording.  Which I say with some amazement, as generally I am not a Norrington fan.  Indeed I bought that recording largely as a joke, fully expecting it to be a stinker.  But it absolutely is not - far from it.  If it doesn't replace Previn/LSO as my reference, it is up there with it.  There is an essential rightness about it.

I too have an emotional connection with this symphony, as for many years I worked in Senate House in Russell Square, parking my car daily in the double-helical underground car park in Bloomsbury Square - so the 2nd movement "Bloomsbury Square on a November afternoon" acts on me like Proust's madeleine, infallibly bringing the past to life.

I am sorry for your loss.
A most interesting post and many thanks for your kind words. I studied at Birkbeck and UCL for some years so that area of London is very familiar to me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 11:54:26 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 12, 2021, 11:39:33 AM
Music can be such a support in times of sadness and loss......

I think I mentioned earlier on this thread that Norrington's RVW is a LOT better than contemporary reviews would have you think.  Like many others here I am NO Norrington fan - but his RVW is very good - helped by great playing and recording it must be said.....
I agree RS - thank you. I need to revisit those Norrington recordings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: aligreto on August 12, 2021, 11:48:45 AM
My condolences to your wife and to you, Jeffrey.
Thank you Fergus - much appreciated.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 12, 2021, 07:50:57 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 06:42:35 AM
I listened to the opening of what sounded like an excellent performance of 'A London Symphony' on You Tube and, to my surprise, discovered that it was Norrington's recording. I say this as I've been rather dismissive of Norrington's VW up until now, although 'A Pastoral Symphony' was better than the others. Anyway I'm listening again to some of his recordings. This Symphony has always meant a lot to me since I was 17 due to my love of VW and of London, where I grew up. We had sad news today as we heard that my nice brother-in-law in Sweden passed away yesterday (he had been ill for many years) and I needed to hear something familiar and consoling:
(//)

Sorry to hear about this, Jeffrey. Best wishes to you and your family. We must never take one moment for granted. It's over before we know it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 10:59:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 12, 2021, 07:50:57 PM
Sorry to hear about this, Jeffrey. Best wishes to you and your family. We must never take one moment for granted. It's over before we know it.
Absolutely right John. Many thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 13, 2021, 06:00:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 12, 2021, 10:59:00 PM
Absolutely right John. Many thanks.

You're welcome, my friend.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2021, 02:00:34 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Sancta Civitas (Ian Partridge, John Shirley-Quirk, LSO, David Willcocks).
It's a long time since I played this magnificent work - arguably one of the composer's greatest works. This is still my favourite recording and is the one that I first came across on LP when I was a university student. I was lucky that my early enthusiasm for VW developed at a time of revival in the composer's music, either side of the 1972 centenary, when many more recordings (such as this one), became available. I remember ordering the LP at the same time as Herbert Howells's 'Hymnus Paradisi' (also conducted by David Willcocks) and these were two huge discoveries for me. I seem to remember ordering them from Boots - the Chemist in Lancaster - seems a weird idea now but, in those far-off days they had a large hardback book full of lists of available recordings, which would arrive a couple of weeks later. I remember talking to an older fellow student about my enthusiasm for VW and he said that, if I liked VW, I had to listen to the Howells work - I'd never heard of the composer before. Odd how these things stick in my mind:


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 17, 2021, 06:45:22 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 17, 2021, 02:00:34 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Sancta Civitas (Ian Partridge, John Shirley-Quirk, LSO, David Willcocks).
It's a long time since I played this magnificent work - arguably one of the composer's greatest works. This is still my favourite recording and is the one that I first came across on LP when I was a university student. I was lucky that my early enthusiasm for VW developed at a time of revival in the composer's music, either side of the 1972 centenary, when many more recordings (such as this one), became available. I remember ordering the LP at the same time as Herbert Howells's 'Hymnus Paradisi' (also conducted by David Willcocks) and these were two huge discoveries for me. I seem to remember ordering them from Boots - the Chemist in Lancaster - seems a weird idea now but, in those far-off days they had a large hardback book full of lists of available recordings, which would arrive a couple of weeks later. I remember talking to an older fellow student about my enthusiasm for VW and he said that, if I liked VW, I had to listen to the Howells work - I'd never heard of the composer before. Odd how these things stick in my mind:

Yep, I'll agree with you about Sancta Civitas, Jeffrey. It's a magnificent piece. I like the Willcocks performance a lot, but I also like this one from Hickox:

(https://img.discogs.com/P_I1VB1nlWPBEwtEruIWv-G1l_E=/fit-in/500x501/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-10360779-1495982476-9116.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Iota on August 17, 2021, 07:26:24 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 17, 2021, 02:00:34 AM
I remember ordering the LP at the same time as Herbert Howells's 'Hymnus Paradisi' (also conducted by David Willcocks) and these were two huge discoveries for me. I seem to remember ordering them from Boots - the Chemist in Lancaster - seems a weird idea now but, in those far-off days they had a large hardback book full of lists of available recordings, which would arrive a couple of weeks later.

It does indeed seem strange now. The only record my mother ever bought for me was from Boots the Chemist, Askenazy's Chopin Etudes on Saga. An LP that I think can reasonably claim to have changed my young life more than any other, changing the way I thought about piano playing in one blinding moment, which affected my future life quite considerably.

Neither of my parents ever listened to, or were particularly interested in music, I'm rather jealous of those whose parents were.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 17, 2021, 07:40:38 AM
Quote from: Iota on August 17, 2021, 07:26:24 AM
It does indeed seem strange now. The only record my mother ever bought for me was from Boots the Chemist, Askenazy's Chopin Etudes on Saga. An LP that I think can reasonably claim to have changed my young life more than any other, changing the way I thought about piano playing in one blinding moment, which affected my future life quite considerably.

Neither of my parents ever listened to, or were particularly interested in music, I'm rather jealous of those whose parents were.

But back in the day you could buy LP's from; Smiths, Woolworths, Boots, just about any decent bookshop, HMV had decent CM departments and that was before you got anywhere near specialist music shops! Or Our Price, Tower, Virgin........  I remember when I first moved to London to go to college in 1979 there were music shops and bookshops everywhere - independents and chains (MDC, Farringdon Records for starters).  Now in London I'm not sure there is a single decent CD shop (I suspect this is a sign of getting old and grumpy...!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2021, 09:51:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 17, 2021, 06:45:22 AM
Yep, I'll agree with you about Sancta Civitas, Jeffrey. It's a magnificent piece. I like the Willcocks performance a lot, but I also like this one from Hickox:

(https://img.discogs.com/P_I1VB1nlWPBEwtEruIWv-G1l_E=/fit-in/500x501/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-10360779-1495982476-9116.jpeg.jpg)
I like that performance too John and also the one from Rozhdestvensky.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2021, 10:50:44 AM
Quote from: Iota on August 17, 2021, 07:26:24 AM
It does indeed seem strange now. The only record my mother ever bought for me was from Boots the Chemist, Askenazy's Chopin Etudes on Saga. An LP that I think can reasonably claim to have changed my young life more than any other, changing the way I thought about piano playing in one blinding moment, which affected my future life quite considerably.

Neither of my parents ever listened to, or were particularly interested in music, I'm rather jealous of those whose parents were.
As I think I've mentioned elsewhere I remember coming home from school one day (must have been in 1969) to find a copy of the newly released 'Abbey Road' LP on my bed and it wasn't my birthday! My mother had bought it for me - always remembered that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2021, 10:54:36 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 17, 2021, 07:40:38 AM
But back in the day you could buy LP's from; Smiths, Woolworths, Boots, just about any decent bookshop, HMV had decent CM departments and that was before you got anywhere near specialist music shops! Or Our Price, Tower, Virgin........  I remember when I first moved to London to go to college in 1979 there were music shops and bookshops everywhere - independents and chains (MDC, Farringdon Records for starters).  Now in London I'm not sure there is a single decent CD shop (I suspect this is a sign of getting old and grumpy...!)
No, you are right - there are no decent CM record shops in London (there's one or two in Brighton). The last one in London was Harold Moores which was always fun due to their supercilious and aloof staff, although Harold himself was charming (I recall a long conversation with him during which we agreed that Prokofiev's 'Ivan the Terrible' was much better than the more polished 'Alexander Nevsky'). Farringdon Records in Cheapside was my favourite.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 17, 2021, 11:49:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 17, 2021, 10:50:44 AM
As I think I've mentioned elsewhere I remember coming home from school one day (must have been in 1969) to find a copy of the newly released 'Abbey Road' LP on my bed and it wasn't my birthday! My mother had bought it for me - always remembered that.
Aw!  Way to go Mom!  ;D

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2021, 11:52:51 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 17, 2021, 11:49:16 AM
Aw!  Way to go Mom!  ;D

PD
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Iota on August 17, 2021, 01:21:46 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 17, 2021, 07:40:38 AM
But back in the day you could buy LP's from; Smiths, Woolworths, Boots, just about any decent bookshop, HMV had decent CM departments and that was before you got anywhere near specialist music shops! Or Our Price, Tower, Virgin........  I remember when I first moved to London to go to college in 1979 there were music shops and bookshops everywhere - independents and chains (MDC, Farringdon Records for starters).  Now in London I'm not sure there is a single decent CD shop (I suspect this is a sign of getting old and grumpy...!)

Indeed the past is a different country etc .. I bought quite a few classical LPs from WH Smiths and Our Price in the 70's. Woolworths seemed to have less classical than those other two, in my home counties neck of the woods at least.

Quote from: vandermolen on August 17, 2021, 10:50:44 AM
As I think I've mentioned elsewhere I remember coming home from school one day (must have been in 1969) to find a copy of the newly released 'Abbey Road' LP on my bed and it wasn't my birthday! My mother had bought it for me - always remembered that.

Nice story! All I remember my mother saying about the Beatles was that they seemed liked really nice boys, very clean! She never admitted to liking classical music, though she did once cave in after hearing me playing one Bowie album however many countless times, and admit to rather liking it!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2021, 11:11:37 PM
Quote from: Iota on August 17, 2021, 01:21:46 PM
Indeed the past is a different country etc .. I bought quite a few classical LPs from WH Smiths and Our Price in the 70's. Woolworths seemed to have less classical than those other two, in my home counties neck of the woods at least.

Nice story! All I remember my mother saying about the Beatles was that they seemed liked really nice boys, very clean! She never admitted to liking classical music, though she did once cave in after hearing me playing one Bowie album however many countless times, and admit to rather liking it!  8)
OT
Also a nice story. As a child my mother twice took me to see the Beatles perform in London (I also saw 'The Monkees'  :o). All you heard was screaming though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Iota on August 18, 2021, 02:24:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 17, 2021, 11:11:37 PM
OT
Also a nice story. As a child my mother twice took me to see the Beatles perform in London (I also saw 'The Monkees'  :o). All you heard was screaming though.

I'm very jealous, despite the screaming.  8)

The closest I got to anything like that was my chemistry teacher taking me to a Deep Purple gig at the Rainbow Theatre when I was 13!  :laugh:

Apologies for all the OT interjections.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 11, 2021, 02:08:07 AM
A new review of this interesting CD:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Sep/VW-america-ALBCD048.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 11, 2021, 07:46:20 AM
I wonder when the next installment to the Brabbins series on Hyperion will be released? If we're going on a yearly basis then this year should be a release since last year Symphony No. 5 came out. To speculate, I imagine this next release will be Symphony No. 6 (with a coupling of another symphony or some other works).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on September 11, 2021, 08:45:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 11, 2021, 02:08:07 AM
A new review of this interesting CD:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Sep/VW-america-ALBCD048.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Sep/VW-america-ALBCD048.htm)

Interesting, Jeffrey, thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 30, 2021, 03:52:34 PM
What do you think about Sinfonia antartica? How do you rank it? Any special or favorite recording? This work looks, to me, like underrated in comparison with the others.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on September 30, 2021, 04:50:47 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 30, 2021, 03:52:34 PM
What do you think about Sinfonia antartica? How do you rank it? Any special or favorite recording? This work looks, to me, like underrated in comparison with the others.

RVW is a masterful symphonist.  I love every one of his symphonies.  Some are abstract.  Some are programmatic.  No. 7 is programmatic.  So is No. 1.  But like No. 1, there is a far more important subtext.  No. 1 isn't a sea symphony.  It's a spiritual symphony using the sea as a metaphor.  I see the same with No. 7.  Like No. 5 it uses other works for sources.  This doesn't detract me from the poetic inspiration at all any more than Prokofiev's No. 3 (from his opera, The Fiery Angel), Alexander Nevsky cantata (from the film), Shostakovich No. 11 from extant folk songs, etc.   I love RVW's No. 7 and find it very unique symphonically and in his body of work.  Yet it fits right in too. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 30, 2021, 06:17:45 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 30, 2021, 04:50:47 PM
RVW is a masterful symphonist.  I love every one of his symphonies.  Some are abstract.  Some are programmatic.  No. 7 is programmatic.  So is No. 1.  But like No. 1, there is a far more important subtext.  No. 1 isn't a sea symphony.  It's a spiritual symphony using the sea as a metaphor.  I see the same with No. 7.  Like No. 5 it uses other works for sources.  This doesn't detract me from the poetic inspiration at all any more than Prokofiev's No. 3 (from his opera, The Fiery Angel), Alexander Nevsky cantata (from the film), Shostakovich No. 11 from extant folk songs, etc.   I love RVW's No. 7 and find it very unique symphonically and in his body of work.  Yet it fits right in too.

Very good to read and it makes sense. I hadn't realized the potential of this tremendous piece. My only quibble is the 4th movement Intermezzo. It was the least interesting to me overall. Granted, it's a necessary quiet moment into the whole work, but I think it could be more cogent.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 30, 2021, 06:23:45 PM
I was hearing this recording and is spectacular!! Now it's in front 3-seat row of my favorites. This work has the very meaning of epic imo, no wonder why the performance is so great and accurate playing like that. They loved every second of it, including the conductor, of course. A sonic experience. My only qubble with the recording is concerned about the female wordless chorus. It could sound more penetrating and deep. More potent (?). I've always liked the timpani of this orchestra, and how "virile" they sound in here. I love this!

(https://is3-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Features/v4/99/81/1e/99811e38-dc9a-e412-7d9e-656c6258abb0/V4HttpAssetRepositoryClient-ticket.jgjqrlzs.jpg-2540085549432634319.jpg/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on September 30, 2021, 07:29:58 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 30, 2021, 06:23:45 PM
I was hearing this recording and is spectacular!! Now it's in front 3-seat row of my favorites. This work has the very meaning of epic imo, no wonder why the performance is so great and accurate playing like that. They loved every second of it, including the conductor, of course. A sonic experience. My only qubble with the recording is concerned about the female wordless chorus. It could sound more penetrating and deep. More potent (?). I've always liked the timpani of this orchestra, and how "virile" they sound in here. I love this!

(https://is3-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Features/v4/99/81/1e/99811e38-dc9a-e412-7d9e-656c6258abb0/V4HttpAssetRepositoryClient-ticket.jgjqrlzs.jpg-2540085549432634319.jpg/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)

Which symphony? The Sinfonia Antartica?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 01, 2021, 02:09:55 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 30, 2021, 04:50:47 PM
RVW is a masterful symphonist.  I love every one of his symphonies.  Some are abstract.  Some are programmatic.  No. 7 is programmatic.  So is No. 1.  But like No. 1, there is a far more important subtext.  No. 1 isn't a sea symphony.  It's a spiritual symphony using the sea as a metaphor.  I see the same with No. 7.  Like No. 5 it uses other works for sources.  This doesn't detract me from the poetic inspiration at all any more than Prokofiev's No. 3 (from his opera, The Fiery Angel), Alexander Nevsky cantata (from the film), Shostakovich No. 11 from extant folk songs, etc.   I love RVW's No. 7 and find it very unique symphonically and in his body of work.  Yet it fits right in too.

Nothing to add to that (for now!), agree with every word of it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 01, 2021, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 30, 2021, 03:52:34 PM
What do you think about Sinfonia antartica? How do you rank it? Any special or favorite recording? This work looks, to me, like underrated in comparison with the others.
I like all the VW symphonies. The Antartica has another appeal to me as I've always been morbidly fascinated in the Captain Scott disaster.
I think that Boult's impersonal/objective way with Vaughan Williams works especially well in Sinfonia Antartica, especially his earlier recording for Decca.

This rather bizarre release features the earlier Boult recording with the LPO.
Here is a review of the CD written by me:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Oct11/antartica_CD41024.htm
Below is another release of the same performance (coupled with Symphony No.8 rather than the 'Captain Scott Sing-a-Long'):
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 02, 2021, 08:41:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 30, 2021, 07:29:58 PM
Which symphony? The Sinfonia Antartica?

Yes, that symphony. That Slatkin performance blew me away.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 02, 2021, 08:42:41 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 01, 2021, 01:49:28 PM
I like all the VW symphonies. The Antartica has another appeal to me as I've always been morbidly fascinated in the Captain Scott disaster.
I think that Boult's impersonal/objective way with Vaughan Williams works especially well in Sinfonia Antartica, especially his earlier recording for Decca.

This rather bizarre release features the earlier Boult recording with the LPO.
Here is a review of the CD written by me:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Oct11/antartica_CD41024.htm
Below is another release of the same performance (coupled with Symphony No.8 rather than the 'Captain Scott Sing-a-Long'):
(//)

Very interesting, Jeffrey. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 02, 2021, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 02, 2021, 08:41:41 AM
Yes, that symphony. That Slatkin performance blew me away.

8) And I take it the Slatkin is sans the narration which is always a plus in my book.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 03, 2021, 12:49:11 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 02, 2021, 08:42:48 PM
8) And I take it the Slatkin is sans the narration which is always a plus in my book.
AFAIK that's right John. I think that Slatkin's VW cycle is underrated (although possibly overrated by David Hurwitz). As for the narration, I have no strong preference (unlike many) and enjoy both versions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on October 03, 2021, 08:51:08 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 30, 2021, 06:23:45 PM
I was hearing this recording and is spectacular!! Now it's in front 3-seat row of my favorites. This work has the very meaning of epic imo, no wonder why the performance is so great and accurate playing like that. They loved every second of it, including the conductor, of course. A sonic experience. My only qubble with the recording is concerned about the female wordless chorus. It could sound more penetrating and deep. More potent (?). I've always liked the timpani of this orchestra, and how "virile" they sound in here. I love this!

(https://is3-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Features/v4/99/81/1e/99811e38-dc9a-e412-7d9e-656c6258abb0/V4HttpAssetRepositoryClient-ticket.jgjqrlzs.jpg-2540085549432634319.jpg/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)

This post has been approved by David Hurwitz! :P But seriously, I'll have to investigate Slatkin's RVW - it sounds quite promising.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 03, 2021, 08:53:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2021, 12:49:11 AM
AFAIK that's right John. I think that Slatkin's VW cycle is underrated (although possibly overrated by David Hurwitz). As for the narration, I have no strong preference (unlike many) and enjoy both versions.

Thanks, Jeffrey. If you had to pick one performance of Sinfonia Antartica as a favorite, what would it be?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 03, 2021, 10:06:27 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 03, 2021, 08:53:59 AM
Thanks, Jeffrey. If you had to pick one performance of Sinfonia Antartica as a favorite, what would it be?
Probably the old Boult one with the LPO on Decca John.

If you don't like the narration and prefer a more recent recording I'd go for Boult's later EMI recording, which is excellent in all respects:

You can't really go wrong with either of those Boult boxed sets. The first one (Decca) was made with vaughan Williams in the studio (apart from No.9 as he had died a few hours before the recording) and Boult had premiered three of the symphonies (3,4 and 6):
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on October 03, 2021, 06:06:10 PM
I would just add if you mix the two Boult recordings plus Previn's, you have all you could want.  None else reach the heights of that combo...except for Haitinks No. 1 which is the best of that work I think.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 03, 2021, 06:09:40 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2021, 10:06:27 AM
Probably the old Boult one with the LPO on Decca John.

If you don't like the narration and prefer a more recent recording I'd go for Boult's later EMI recording, which is excellent in all respects:

You can't really go wrong with either of those Boult boxed sets. The first one (Decca) was made with Vaughan Williams in the studio (apart from No.9 as he had died a few hours before the recording) and Boult had premiered three of the symphonies (3,4 and 6):
(//)

Very nice, Jeffrey. I own both of the Boult recordings. 8) Thanks for the feedback and that is an interesting anecdote about the composer that I didn't know.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 03, 2021, 06:12:14 PM
Quote from: relm1 on October 03, 2021, 06:06:10 PM
I would just add if you mix the two Boult recordings plus Previn's, you have all you could want.  None else reach the heights of that combo...except for Haitinks No. 1 which is the best of that work I think.  :)

Yeah, I like the Previn a lot as well. His RVW cycle is probably my favorite overall in terms of consistency of the performances and the newly remastered set cleaned up a lot of the problems with the previous remastering.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 04, 2021, 01:37:41 AM
I will give Previn's Antartica another listen to. I think that he is unrivalled in Symphony 3 and 8 and his A London Symphony (1936 version) and Symphony No.5 are arguably the best as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 04, 2021, 06:30:40 AM
There I am always enjoying the narrations!  Probably because a) I find a couple of them rather powerful/moving in their own right and b) I'm imprinted with Gielgud and/or Richardson from first getting to know the work so its the dreaded "first love" scenario....

Just to turn the knife for those who cannot abide the narration I think this is an excellent recording both as a musical interpretation and recording;

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/411PGQRPTFL.jpg) 

made all the better by having EXTENDED narrated sequences.  Leppard recorded too little British 20th Century music - what he did is nearly always excellent......  Thee's a rather fine live recording of RVW 2 'London' and Elgar Enigma on YouTube (audio only) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7GxNAAJhog
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 04, 2021, 11:10:00 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 04, 2021, 06:30:40 AM
There I am always enjoying the narrations!  Probably because a) I find a couple of them rather powerful/moving in their own right and b) I'm imprinted with Gielgud and/or Richardson from first getting to know the work so its the dreaded "first love" scenario....

Just to turn the knife for those who cannot abide the narration I think this is an excellent recording both as a musical interpretation and recording;

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/411PGQRPTFL.jpg) 

made all the better by having EXTENDED narrated sequences.  Leppard recorded too little British 20th Century music - what he did is nearly always excellent......  Thee's a rather fine live recording of RVW 2 'London' and Elgar Enigma on YouTube (audio only) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7GxNAAJhog
Yes! That features readings that were never intended for the Symphony - I've always thought very highly of Raymond Leppard and feel that his recordings of Bax's 5th and 7th symphonies are unrivalled.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 10, 2021, 04:13:44 PM
Found on Twitter.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 10, 2021, 07:40:46 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 04, 2021, 06:30:40 AM
There I am always enjoying the narrations!  Probably because a) I find a couple of them rather powerful/moving in their own right and b) I'm imprinted with Gielgud and/or Richardson from first getting to know the work so its the dreaded "first love" scenario....

Just to turn the knife for those who cannot abide the narration I think this is an excellent recording both as a musical interpretation and recording;

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/411PGQRPTFL.jpg) 

made all the better by having EXTENDED narrated sequences.  Leppard recorded too little British 20th Century music - what he did is nearly always excellent......  Thee's a rather fine live recording of RVW 2 'London' and Elgar Enigma on YouTube (audio only) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7GxNAAJhog

Can the narrated parts be skipped in this recording? If yes, I may consider it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 10, 2021, 10:47:17 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 10, 2021, 04:13:44 PM
Found on Twitter.
Great photo!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 10, 2021, 11:42:43 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 10, 2021, 04:13:44 PM
Found on Twitter.

Great photo. RVW wrote his Tuba Concerto for a Philip Catelinet apparently. He is likely to be the chap in the photo.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on October 11, 2021, 12:21:08 AM
That is a great photo.

[Leppard]
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2021, 07:40:46 PM
Can the narrated parts be skipped in this recording? If yes, I may consider it.

Pretty much**.  That is they are clear of music so can be edited out.  I've done that.  They aren't tracked though.  There is one narration over a sustained orchestral pedal point - which does actually occur in one or two other recordings - but cutting that is not really damaging musically, it just makes for a slightly duff music edit that is gone in an instant.
Other than that it's a fine version - but then, of the several recordings of the Antartica that I have, I really like them all.  The other point of interest for me when comparing is whether the organ is 'live' or (as I suspect is nearly always the case) overdubbed.

** edit to add to the above - I've just checked it and it's perhaps a little more problematic than I remembered.  In the all-important middle movement there are two narrator interventions within the movement (ie, not simply before the start) - and it is the 2nd of these which overlays the (extended) orchestral pedal-point crescendo immediately before the final huge climax.  So it does make a nasty cut at a most important musical moment - but still, in tne end it is just an instantaneous gltch.  If you were listening on vinyl and had a click at that moment you'd think nothing of it - it's no worse than that really.  The other intervention is clear of music, as is a similar intervention in the 4th movement.

The texts (diary extracts) are quite interesting - especially the very extended (over 2 minutes) narration before the 2nd (penguins) movement, and delivered in a light, non-portentous manner.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2021, 02:57:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 10, 2021, 04:13:44 PM
Found on Twitter.
Cool!  Is that Philip Catelinet?

PD

Quote from: Irons on October 10, 2021, 11:42:43 PM
Great photo. RVW wrote his Tuba Concerto for a Philip Catelinet apparently. He is likely to be the chap in the photo.

Quote from: vandermolen on October 10, 2021, 10:47:17 PM
Great photo!
I did some digging and yes that is P.C. there.  Whilst doing that, I found this neat website with a wonderful story of how he came to premiere the work, etc.  Had a good laugh re the story of Crispin too.

http://philipcatelinet.com/biography/the-truth-about-the-vaughan-williams-tuba-concerto-by-philip-catelinet-itea-journal-volume-14-number-2-november-1986/

Lovely recounting by him.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2021, 12:13:29 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2021, 02:57:11 AM
Cool!  Is that Philip Catelinet?

PD
I did some digging and yes that is P.C. there.  Whilst doing that, I found this neat website with a wonderful story of how he came to premiere the work, etc.  Had a good laugh re the story of Crispin too.

http://philipcatelinet.com/biography/the-truth-about-the-vaughan-williams-tuba-concerto-by-philip-catelinet-itea-journal-volume-14-number-2-november-1986/

Lovely recounting by him.  :)

PD
A most interesting and charming article PD - thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2021, 12:22:23 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 11, 2021, 12:13:29 PM
A most interesting and charming article PD - thanks for posting it.
Glad that you enjoyed it Jeffrey!  I found it to be quite interesting how he initially got the job playing the tuba and also his amount of rehearsal/preparedness with the orchestra beforehand and how the various performances went, etc., and his comments about how he found Vaughan Williams to be as a person (from what interactions that he had with him over the years and notes that he had received from him)...lovely!

Wish that I could have seen Crispin "with" tuba and Vaughan Williams reaction....priceless I bet!  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2021, 12:32:34 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2021, 12:22:23 PM
Glad that you enjoyed it Jeffrey!  I found it to be quite interesting how he initially got the job playing the tuba and also his amount of rehearsal/preparedness with the orchestra beforehand and how the various performances went, etc., and his comments about how he found Vaughan Williams to be as a person (from what interactions that he had with him over the years and notes that he had received from him)...lovely!

Wish that I could have seen Crispin "with" tuba and Vaughan Williams reaction....priceless I bet!  :)

PD
I hope that Crispin found his way out and was not 'expelled' during the concert!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2021, 12:55:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 11, 2021, 12:32:34 PM
I hope that Crispin found his way out and was not 'expelled' during the concert!
I'm sure that he did otherwise we would have heard a very different story regarding the destruction of a trombone trying to get him out or an even worse ending [God forbid!]!   :'(  Have you heard/read anything otherwise?  Apparently, Ursula has written about it:  "Mrs. Vaughan Williams quotes this story in her volume R.W.V., Oxford University Press, 1964."  Do you have this book Jeffrey?  I'd be very curious as to what she wrote.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2021, 01:06:14 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2021, 12:55:17 PM
I'm sure that he did otherwise we would have heard a very different story regarding the destruction of a trombone trying to get him out or an even worse ending [God forbid!]!   :'(  Have you heard/read anything otherwise?  Apparently, Ursula has written about it:  "Mrs. Vaughan Williams quotes this story in her volume R.W.V., Oxford University Press, 1964."  Do you have this book Jeffrey?  I'd be very curious as to what she wrote.

PD
Yes, I have the book PD. I know that the pictorial biography features a photo of Crispin and Friskin.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2021, 01:16:50 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 11, 2021, 01:06:14 PM
Yes, I have the book PD. I know that the pictorial biography features a photo of Crispin and Friskin.
Oh, so it's the pictorial bio that he's referring to.  Any comments therein?

Is Friskin a sibling?  And I trust that no kittens were harmed during the performance rehearsals?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2021, 01:30:20 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2021, 01:16:50 PM
Oh, so it's the pictorial bio that he's referring to.  Any comments therein?

Is Friskin a sibling?  And I trust that no kittens were harmed during the performance rehearsals?

PD
I'm sure that the kittens were fine PD! Yes, Friskin was a sibling - they look identical. I'll try to find a photo.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 11, 2021, 01:39:37 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2021, 12:22:23 PM
Glad that you enjoyed it Jeffrey!  I found it to be quite interesting how he initially got the job playing the tuba and also his amount of rehearsal/preparedness with the orchestra beforehand and how the various performances went, etc., and his comments about how he found Vaughan Williams to be as a person (from what interactions that he had with him over the years and notes that he had received from him)...lovely!

Wish that I could have seen Crispin "with" tuba and Vaughan Williams reaction....priceless I bet!  :)

PD

Check PM, PD ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2021, 01:48:30 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2021, 01:16:50 PM
Oh, so it's the pictorial bio that he's referring to.  Any comments therein?

Is Friskin a sibling?  And I trust that no kittens were harmed during the performance rehearsals?

PD
Here you go PD
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2021, 03:13:53 PM
VW's 149th Birthday today (12th October). Next year there will no doubt be many commemorative events. I just received the RVW Society Journal and was sad to note the death of James Day (aged 93) who wrote a famous biography of Vaughan Williams in the Master Musicians series:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 11, 2021, 08:17:49 PM
Thanks for the reminder, Jeffrey. I'll have to have a Vaughan Williams-a-thon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2021, 10:02:48 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 11, 2021, 08:17:49 PM
Thanks for the reminder, Jeffrey. I'll have to have a Vaughan Williams-a-thon.
Definitely John!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2021, 01:15:27 AM
Happy 149th birthday RVW (born 12/10/1872)
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 12, 2021, 04:50:55 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 11, 2021, 01:39:37 PM
Check PM, PD ;)
Will do!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 12, 2021, 04:55:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 11, 2021, 01:48:30 PM
Here you go PD

Thanks for the image....cute!
Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2021, 01:15:27 AM
Happy 149th birthday RVW (born 12/10/1872)
(//)
Happy birthday RVW!   :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 12, 2021, 06:23:59 AM
Yes, a Happy Birthday is in order for Ralph!

(https://emuseum.cornell.edu/internal/media/dispatcher/79983/full)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2021, 08:57:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 12, 2021, 06:23:59 AM
Yes, a Happy Birthday is in order for Ralph!

(https://emuseum.cornell.edu/internal/media/dispatcher/79983/full)
Great photo!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on October 12, 2021, 02:11:33 PM
I listened to his 8th symphony in celebration

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61RCxE4Cv0L.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Scion7 on October 12, 2021, 02:20:26 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/7PM45Qfc/RVW-BBC.png)

Back when it was possible to "tunnel" in and download these music commentary programs from the colonies.
The Beeb has been quite protective since then.  Natty.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 13, 2021, 10:38:21 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 12, 2021, 02:11:33 PM
I listened to his 8th symphony in celebration

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61RCxE4Cv0L.jpg)
A good choice!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 15, 2021, 06:26:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 13, 2021, 10:38:21 PM
A good choice!

A good choice as far as the symphony goes, but not the performance. ;) I never cared for Manze's RVW. One of the great 8th performances for me Thomson on Chandos. This is the first performance I heard that made this work click for me.

I didn't post anything in the "Listening" thread, but as a celebration for RVW's birthday, I listened to Job, A Masque for Dancing and Flos Campi from these two recordings:

(https://img.discogs.com/OQ5U6VNcgGdkE83s82XfDgRYPkg=/fit-in/600x596/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3369699-1327689044.jpeg.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rLarYPo6L._SL1200_.jpg)

I just want to say that Wordsworth's Job is one of the finest in the catalog, IMHO. I wish he had done a whole symphony cycle! An excellent conductor and The Philharmonia play their hearts out.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on October 15, 2021, 07:02:24 PM
Cross-posted from the WAYLT thread:

Vaughan Williams: Suite for Viola and Chamber Orchestra

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61pgz%2BCQ8CL._SX425_.jpg)

This is RVW at his most generously open-hearted, warm, and positive. Some movements even have a real sense of "fun" that one doesn't normally associate with the composer. Dare I say it's even one of my very favorite works of his? Violist Timothy Ridout is one of the most remarkable young string players of our generation IMO, and he gives a gorgeous performance here.


Anyone else love this work? It seems to get little mention on this thread, but it's among my favorite works of RVW's. Absolutely heart-warming stuff.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 16, 2021, 01:08:47 AM
Quote from: kyjo on October 15, 2021, 07:02:24 PM
Cross-posted from the WAYLT thread:

Vaughan Williams: Suite for Viola and Chamber Orchestra

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61pgz%2BCQ8CL._SX425_.jpg)

This is RVW at his most generously open-hearted, warm, and positive. Some movements even have a real sense of "fun" that one doesn't normally associate with the composer. Dare I say it's even one of my very favorite works of his? Violist Timothy Ridout is one of the most remarkable young string players of our generation IMO, and he gives a gorgeous performance here.


Anyone else love this work? It seems to get little mention on this thread, but it's among my favorite works of RVW's. Absolutely heart-warming stuff.

I do have a recording of the Suite (Bournemouth Sinfonietta/Norman Del Mar/Frederick Riddle viola) but I haven't listened to it very often, certainly not as much as Flos Campi .
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2021, 05:55:12 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 16, 2021, 01:08:47 AM
I do have a recording of the Suite (Bournemouth Sinfonietta/Norman Del Mar/Frederick Riddle viola) but I haven't listened to it very often, certainly not as much as Flos Campi .
I think that Flos Campi is the much greater work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2021, 05:56:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 15, 2021, 06:26:11 AM
A good choice as far as the symphony goes, but not the performance. ;) I never cared for Manze's RVW. One of the great 8th performances for me Thomson on Chandos. This is the first performance I heard that made this work click for me.

I didn't post anything in the "Listening" thread, but as a celebration for RVW's birthday, I listened to Job, A Masque for Dancing and Flos Campi from these two recordings:

(https://img.discogs.com/OQ5U6VNcgGdkE83s82XfDgRYPkg=/fit-in/600x596/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3369699-1327689044.jpeg.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rLarYPo6L._SL1200_.jpg)

I just want to say that Wordsworth's Job is one of the finest in the catalog, IMHO. I wish he had done a whole symphony cycle! An excellent conductor and The Philharmonia play their hearts out.
I agree with you about Manze, Thomson and Wordsworth.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 16, 2021, 06:23:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 16, 2021, 05:56:41 AM
I agree with you about Manze, Thomson and Wordsworth.

I somehow knew you'd agree, Jeffrey. ;)

Quote from: vandermolen on October 16, 2021, 05:55:12 AM
I think that Flos Campi is the much greater work.

I agree with this for sure as Flos Campi is amongst the composer's masterpieces. I do like the Suite for Viola and Chamber Orchestra, though. It doesn't strike me as one of his finest works, but it is enjoyable nevertheless.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2021, 08:23:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 16, 2021, 06:23:58 AM
I somehow knew you'd agree, Jeffrey. ;)

I agree with this for sure as Flos Campi is amongst the composer's masterpieces. I do like the Suite for Viola and Chamber Orchestra, though. It doesn't strike me as one of his finest works, but it is enjoyable nevertheless.

I haven't really liked the Suite for Viola since I first encountered it on LP. It's one of the few works by VW which I dislike, along with the Wasps Overture and (:o) the 'Serenade to Music'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 16, 2021, 08:43:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 16, 2021, 08:23:40 AM
I haven't really liked the Suite for Viola since I first encountered it on LP. It's one of the few works by VW which I dislike, along with the Wasps Overture and (:o) the 'Serenade to Music'.

Interesting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 17, 2021, 07:00:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 16, 2021, 08:23:40 AM
I haven't really liked the Suite for Viola since I first encountered it on LP. It's one of the few works by VW which I dislike, along with the Wasps Overture and (:o) the 'Serenade to Music'.

I'm with you on the Wasps Overture and Serenade to Music, but what is it specifically that you don't like about the Suite for Viola and Small Orchestra? As with many of my favorite composers, there are always works I don't enjoy that much and I'm just being honest here when I say I can live without the RVW operas. I've heard The Pilgrim's Progress, The Poisoned Kiss and Sir John in Love and the found them overall to be not to my tastes and overlong, although I do like Riders to the Sea, which is darkly moving, but also a good length.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on October 17, 2021, 08:13:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 16, 2021, 08:23:40 AM
I haven't really liked the Suite for Viola since I first encountered it on LP. It's one of the few works by VW which I dislike, along with the Wasps Overture and (:o) the 'Serenade to Music'.

Well, we must agree to disagree here, Jeffrey! ;) The Suite for Viola may not be one of RVW's most "profound" works, but none the worse for that IMO. I really must revisit Flos campi at some point. I remember it being rather elusive, but, as always with RVW, hauntingly beautiful.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 17, 2021, 02:05:59 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 17, 2021, 07:00:37 AM
I'm with you on the Wasps Overture and Serenade to Music, but what is it specifically that you don't like about the Suite for Viola and Small Orchestra? As with many of my favorite composers, there are always works I don't enjoy that much and I'm just being honest here when I say I can live without the RVW operas. I've heard The Pilgrim's Progress, The Poisoned Kiss and Sir John in Love and the found them overall to be not to my tastes and overlong, although I do like Riders to the Sea, which is darkly moving, but also a good length.
The Viola Suite just didn't appeal to me John when I first heard it on LP. Maybe I should give it another listen to. However, I think that the Pilgrim's Progress is arguably his greatest work, although it helps a lot having seen it live in a semi-staged and fully-staged production in London - I found it incredibly moving. I've also been fortunate to see a semi-staged production of 'Riders to the Sea' which I think is another very moving and powerful work. I can, however, easily live without 'Sir John in Love' 'The Poisoned Kiss' and 'Hugh the Drover' which has too much of 'Merrie England' about it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 17, 2021, 02:07:17 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 17, 2021, 08:13:17 AM
Well, we must agree to disagree here, Jeffrey! ;) The Suite for Viola may not be one of RVW's most "profound" works, but none the worse for that IMO. I really must revisit Flos campi at some point. I remember it being rather elusive, but, as always with RVW, hauntingly beautiful.
I must have another listen to the Viola Suite Kyle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 17, 2021, 07:35:13 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 17, 2021, 02:05:59 PM
The Viola Suite just didn't appeal to me John when I first heard it on LP. Maybe I should give it another listen to. However, I think that the Pilgrim's Progress is arguably his greatest work, although it helps a lot having seen it live in a semi-staged and fully-staged production in London - I found it incredibly moving. I've also been fortunate to see a semi-staged production of 'Riders to the Sea' which I think is another very moving and powerful work. I can, however, easily live without 'Sir John in Love' 'The Poisoned Kiss' and 'Hugh the Drover' which has too much of 'Merrie England' about it.

You're fortunate to have seen The Pilgrim's Progress in a live context. I'm sure I might even appreciate it more. I'll have to give another listen to the Boult recording I have (I also own Hickox's recording on Chandos). Yes, we're certainly in agreement about Riders to the Sea. A magnificent work! Right now, I'm in the midst of an RVW-a-thon. Listening to Partita for Double String Orchestra --- a work that doesn't get discussed enough!

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 17, 2021, 11:12:02 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 17, 2021, 07:35:13 PM
You're fortunate to have seen The Pilgrim's Progress in a live context. I'm sure I might even appreciate it more. I'll have to give another listen to the Boult recording I have (I also own Hickox's recording on Chandos). Yes, we're certainly in agreement about Riders to the Sea. A magnificent work! Right now, I'm in the midst of an RVW-a-thon. Listening to Partita for Double String Orchestra --- a work that doesn't get discussed enough!
I agree John re. the Partita. It's included on the CD with Thomson's excellent recording of the 8th Symphony and I tend to play that CD right through from beginning to end. I actually have three recordings of 'Pilgrim's Progress'. My favourite is the Hickox (I saw him conduct the work) so, I'd recommend giving that version a listen to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 18, 2021, 06:41:44 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 17, 2021, 11:12:02 PM
I agree John re. the Partita. It's included on the CD with Thomson's excellent recording of the 8th Symphony and I tend to play that CD right through from beginning to end. I actually have three recordings of 'Pilgrim's Progress'. My favourite is the Hickox (I saw him conduct the work) so, I'd recommend giving that version a listen to.

Ah, yes. You see I bought the Thomson series as box sets. These two to be exact:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/961/MI0000961740.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH9262.jpg)

I was going to ask you, do you own the Boult Warner box set released from several years ago? I know you own a lot of Boult's RVW individually, but I wasn't sure if you had bought this set:

(https://www.warnerclassics.com/sites/default/files/styles/release_and_playlist_cover_756_x_756/public/5099990356728.jpg?itok=FcLancYm)

I had a good many of the Bout recordings individually, but I was thrilled when this box set came out, because it allowed me to own everything he did of the composer on EMI.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 18, 2021, 07:25:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 18, 2021, 06:41:44 AM
Ah, yes. You see I bought the Thomson series as box sets. These two to be exact:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/961/MI0000961740.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH9262.jpg)

I was going to ask you, do you own the Boult Warner box set released from several years ago? I know you own a lot of Boult's RVW individually, but I wasn't sure if you had bought this set:

(https://www.warnerclassics.com/sites/default/files/styles/release_and_playlist_cover_756_x_756/public/5099990356728.jpg?itok=FcLancYm)

I had a good many of the Bout recordings individually, but I was thrilled when this box set came out, because it allowed me to own everything he did of the composer on EMI.
Yes John - I own all three of those boxed sets as well as the individual CD releases  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 18, 2021, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 18, 2021, 07:25:07 AM
Yes John - I own all three of those boxed sets as well as the individual CD releases  ::)

I knew I could count on you for collection lunacy, which is also a condition I suffer from. :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 18, 2021, 09:15:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 17, 2021, 02:07:17 PM
I must have another listen to the Viola Suite Kyle.

I like the whole, but esp. the Moto perpetuo and Musette, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 18, 2021, 10:59:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 18, 2021, 07:28:19 AM
I knew I could count on you for collection lunacy, which is also a condition I suffer from. :P

Yes, John, I'm sure  ;D
A sad case OCCDCD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 18, 2021, 11:00:15 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2021, 09:15:19 AM
I like the whole, but esp. the Moto perpetuo and Musette, Jeffrey.
Will look out for those movements Karl.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 18, 2021, 02:40:54 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 18, 2021, 11:00:15 AM
Will look out for those movements Karl.

I think you'll enjoy Suite for Viola and Chamber Orchestra, Jeffrey. There are a number of fine performances now. I listened to the Power/Brabbins one on Hyperion the other day and was rather satisfied with it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2021, 01:00:15 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 18, 2021, 02:40:54 PM
I think you'll enjoy Suite for Viola and Chamber Orchestra, Jeffrey. There are a number of fine performances now. I listened to the Power/Brabbins one on Hyperion the other day and was rather satisfied with it.
I'll give it a spin John.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on October 20, 2021, 01:03:31 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 20, 2021, 01:00:15 PM
I'll give it a spin John.

Excellent. I'll be curious to know your impressions this time around.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 28, 2021, 02:00:55 AM
The first (1958) which is the most intense reading I have heard of the 9th Symphony. The feeling of discovery Sargent brings is palpable.

https://themusicparlour.blogspot.com/2010/07/sir-malcolm-sargent-rpo-vaughan_2.html

An upload is on YT but this is far more natural and captures the finer details of Sir Malcolm Sargent's superb reading with greater clarity. I listened to Sir Adrian's (EMI) monumental recording for comparison. The differences are most stark in the 3rd movement, Boult is a jaunty dance where as Sargent (15.20) brings some Shostakovich black humour to the proceedings. First time I have thought of RVW and DSCH in the same breath. Almost a dancing devil.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 28, 2021, 03:51:01 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 28, 2021, 02:00:55 AM
The first (1958) which is the most intense reading I have heard of the 9th Symphony. The feeling of discovery Sargent brings is palpable.

https://themusicparlour.blogspot.com/2010/07/sir-malcolm-sargent-rpo-vaughan_2.html

An upload is on YT but this is far more natural and captures the finer details of Sir Malcolm Sargent's superb reading with greater clarity. I listened to Sir Adrian's (EMI) monumental recording for comparison. The differences are most stark in the 3rd movement, Boult is a jaunty dance where as Sargent (15.20) brings some Shostakovich black humour to the proceedings. First time I have thought of RVW and DSCH in the same breath. Almost a dancing devil.
Most interesting Lol! I have the same performance on a Pristine Audio CDR and, like you, I admire that version (you've encouraged me to listen to it again later). Of course that premiere performance has had a very bad press, with the suggestion that Sargent rushed through the under-rehearsed work as quickly as possible. This opinion was reinforced by VW's assistant Roy Douglas (with whom I once had the pleasure of having a cup of tea) in his interesting short book 'Working with RVW'. Douglas obviously couldn't stand Sargent, whom he found aloof and dismissive (he compared him unfavourably with Boult, whom he always found to be courteous and, unlike Sargent, without self-importance). Douglas's view of that performance may well have influenced the general perspective on the premiere of the Ninth Symphony.

PS Now playing:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 28, 2021, 05:30:37 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 28, 2021, 02:00:55 AM
The first (1958) which is the most intense reading I have heard of the 9th Symphony. The feeling of discovery Sargent brings is palpable.

https://themusicparlour.blogspot.com/2010/07/sir-malcolm-sargent-rpo-vaughan_2.html

An upload is on YT but this is far more natural and captures the finer details of Sir Malcolm Sargent's superb reading with greater clarity. I listened to Sir Adrian's (EMI) monumental recording for comparison. The differences are most stark in the 3rd movement, Boult is a jaunty dance where as Sargent (15.20) brings some Shostakovich black humour to the proceedings. First time I have thought of RVW and DSCH in the same breath. Almost a dancing devil.

Quote from: vandermolen on October 28, 2021, 03:51:01 AM
Most interesting Lol! I have the same performance on a Pristine Audio CDR and, like you, I admire that version (you've encouraged me to listen to it again later). Of course that premiere performance has had a very bad press, with the suggestion that Sargent rushed through the under-rehearsed work as quickly as possible. This opinion was reinforced by VW's assistant Roy Douglas (with whom I once had the pleasure of having a cup of tea) in his interesting short book 'Working with RVW'. Douglas obviously couldn't stand Sargent, whom he found aloof and dismissive (he compared him unfavourably with Boult, whom he always found to be courteous and, unlike Sargent, without self-importance). Douglas's view of that performance may well have influenced the general perspective on the premiere of the Ninth Symphony.

PS Now playing:
(//)
I just listened to some of it on the Pristine Classical website:  Wow!  And (even over my computer) what great sound!  I must say that I'm stunned though over the feud/squabbling between Tin Ear and Andrew Rose.  And saddened too.  Does T.E. run the Music Parlour website and provide all of the uploads there?  I did read that A.R. had worked as an audio engineer for the BBC.  What qualifications does T.E. have?  Sorry if I'm opening up a can of worms here.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 28, 2021, 06:17:40 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 28, 2021, 05:30:37 AM
I just listened to some of it on the Pristine Classical website:  Wow!  And (even over my computer) what great sound!  I must say that I'm stunned though over the feud/squabbling between Tin Ear and Andrew Rose.  And saddened too.  Does T.E. run the Music Parlour website and provide all of the uploads there?  I did read that A.R. had worked as an audio engineer for the BBC.  What qualifications does T.E. have?  Sorry if I'm opening up a can of worms here.

PD
I was aware of some dispute but can't remember the details. I've bought quite a few Pristine releases and always find communications from them to be rather curt and unfriendly.

Going back to the VW release above it's worth mentioning Dmitri Mitropoulos's 1945 recording of 'A London Symphony' with which Sargent's recording of the Ninth Symphony is coupled. It's rather a fine performance but the sound is very poor and muffled in places. Also, bizarrely, Mitropoulos brings back the chimes of Big Ben as the last notes in the Symphony! I think that VW would have taken a dim view of this, as no doubt he would have by the radio announcer referring to this first name as 'Ralf' rather than 'Rafe'!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 28, 2021, 06:49:32 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 28, 2021, 05:30:37 AM
I just listened to some of it on the Pristine Classical website:  Wow!  And (even over my computer) what great sound!  I must say that I'm stunned though over the feud/squabbling between Tin Ear and Andrew Rose.  And saddened too.  Does T.E. run the Music Parlour website and provide all of the uploads there?  I did read that A.R. had worked as an audio engineer for the BBC.  What qualifications does T.E. have?  Sorry if I'm opening up a can of worms here.

PD

Worms there are. I will PM you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 28, 2021, 07:58:46 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 28, 2021, 03:51:01 AM
Most interesting Lol! I have the same performance on a Pristine Audio CDR and, like you, I admire that version (you've encouraged me to listen to it again later). Of course that premiere performance has had a very bad press, with the suggestion that Sargent rushed through the under-rehearsed work as quickly as possible. This opinion was reinforced by VW's assistant Roy Douglas (with whom I once had the pleasure of having a cup of tea) in his interesting short book 'Working with RVW'. Douglas obviously couldn't stand Sargent, whom he found aloof and dismissive (he compared him unfavourably with Boult, whom he always found to be courteous and, unlike Sargent, without self-importance). Douglas's view of that performance may well have influenced the general perspective on the premiere of the Ninth Symphony.

PS Now playing:
(//)
I was wondering how that London Symphony was.  I did think (even over my computer) that the recording of the Ninth (the part that I heard anyway on their website) was quite good and in very good sound.

Quote from: Irons on October 28, 2021, 06:49:32 AM
Worms there are. I will PM you.
Thanks....I think?  :-\  Are all of the downloads on the Music Parlour free?  Or does he also sell them?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 28, 2021, 11:19:55 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 28, 2021, 06:49:32 AM
Worms there are. I will PM you.

Thought I saw "worm sign" ....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 28, 2021, 11:22:58 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2021, 11:19:55 AM
Thought I saw "worm sign" ....
:laugh:

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 29, 2021, 09:18:20 AM
Been listening to 'A Cotswold Romance' (a cantata derived from the opera 'Hugh the Drover'). It was pleasant enough but did not fill me with desire to hear the complete opera. Parts of it suggested a vocal version of 'The Wasps Overture' (a work I dislike), with too much of 'Merrie England' and Morris Dancing for my liking, but there were some attractive passages. Still, as I'm off to the Cotswolds next Friday to stay in a 'Shepherd's hut' on a farm for a few days (no wi-fi, no TV, cut off from cat group etc) it seemed like the perfect listening choice! Far more interesting was the incidental music for 'Death of Tintagiles' - this is Vaughan Williams at his darkest, with echoes of 'Riders to the Sea', 6th Symphony and the darker pages of the Flemish Farm film music. An interesting CD but maybe for die-hard admirers.
(//)

PS 'I'm listening to 'A Cotswold Romance' again and enjoying it more. I get it, that Vaughan Williams was trying to create an English national opera and, of course, it makes sense in that context. If you enjoy the 'Five Tudor Portraits' (as I do) you might enjoy this:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: MusicTurner on October 29, 2021, 11:25:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 29, 2021, 09:18:20 AM
Been listening to 'A Cotswold Romance' (a cantata derived from the opera 'Hugh the Drover'). It was pleasant enough but did not fill me with desire to hear the complete opera. Parts of it suggested a vocal version of 'The Wasps Overture' (a work I dislike), with too much of 'Merrie England' and Morris Dancing for my liking, but there were some attractive passages. Still, as I'm off to the Cotswolds next Friday to stay in a 'Shepherd's hut' on a farm for a few days (no wi-fi, no TV, cut off from cat group etc) it seemed like the perfect listening choice! Far more interesting was the incidental music for 'Death of Tintagiles' - this is Vaughan Williams at his darkest, with echoes of 'Riders to the Sea', 6th Symphony and the darker pages of the Flemish Farm film music. An interesting CD but maybe for die-hard admirers.
(//)

PS 'I'm listening to 'A Cotswold Romance' again and enjoying it more. I get it, that Vaughan Williams was trying to create an English national opera and, of course, it makes sense in that context. If you enjoy the 'Five Tudor Portraits' (as I do) you might enjoy this:

That sounds really great with the trip. I find the CD very appealing and the Romance fresh, it's a CD I'd certainly include in a basic VW collection, but didn't check the details of the story :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 29, 2021, 02:38:30 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 29, 2021, 11:25:30 AM
That sounds really great with the trip. I find the CD very appealing and the Romance fresh, it's a CD I'd certainly include in a basic VW collection, but didn't check the details of the story :)
Thanks - I think that I was a bit harsh on the CR and have been enjoying it much more - 'Death of Tintagiles' was a revelation.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on October 29, 2021, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 29, 2021, 09:18:20 AM
Been listening to 'A Cotswold Romance' (a cantata derived from the opera 'Hugh the Drover'). It was pleasant enough but did not fill me with desire to hear the complete opera. Parts of it suggested a vocal version of 'The Wasps Overture' (a work I dislike), with too much of 'Merrie England' and Morris Dancing for my liking, but there were some attractive passages. Still, as I'm off to the Cotswolds next Friday to stay in a 'Shepherd's hut' on a farm for a few days (no wi-fi, no TV, cut off from cat group etc) it seemed like the perfect listening choice! Far more interesting was the incidental music for 'Death of Tintagiles' - this is Vaughan Williams at his darkest, with echoes of 'Riders to the Sea', 6th Symphony and the darker pages of the Flemish Farm film music. An interesting CD but maybe for die-hard admirers.
(//)

PS 'I'm listening to 'A Cotswold Romance' again and enjoying it more. I get it, that Vaughan Williams was trying to create an English national opera and, of course, it makes sense in that context. If you enjoy the 'Five Tudor Portraits' (as I do) you might enjoy this:

Yet again, I totally agree with you that "Hugh the Drover" cantata comes across as the less interevesting version of RVW's merrie England music.  The one thing though, sometimes the underscore has more depth than the crowd pleasing moments that makes its way into a suite.  A simple example, I prefer the entire Nutcracker over the suite because some of my favorite moments aren't in the suite.  Sometimes a work needs time to breathe to show it's strength structurally.  Just having a climax is boring if it didn't have to earn that climax but that developmental section probably wouldn't be in a suite.  I also agree that "Death of Tintagiles" was far more interesting but also darker.  I guess I consistently prefer meditative or dark RVW over 'Merrie England' RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 29, 2021, 07:20:34 PM
I bought a copy of the Hyperion set of Hugh the Drover in a bargain bin about 15 years ago and I have listened to it with pleasure several times. It's real VW and no sillier than any other opera. The real problem is the libretto which is very clunky. There is one passage, a quintet for the main characters, which is very impressive.

However, talk of Hugh the Drover reminded me of one of those might-have-been stories. After Hugh the Drover was produced and didn't do that well the young Robert Graves (pre Goodbye to all That and the Claudius novels) approached VW with his opera script John Kemp's Wager. Unfortunately VW didn't want to do another opera with a rural setting and was already working on other things (perhaps including Sir John in Love). This is a great pity as Graves' script is fantastic (well, for an opera libretto anyway) and it wouldn't have needed so much work as Hugh the Drover as it is a ballad opera with spoken dialogue, and all the numbers are settings of folk-songs. So VW would have just had to write an overture, a few pieces of incidental music and accompaniments to the numbers (and it would have been very congenial for him).

Graves' script was published in 1925, but has never been reprinted. However, some enterprising composer could still have a go at it and I think I would still be a worthwhile thing to do (and would pretty much write itself).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 29, 2021, 07:26:06 PM
In fact here's a synopsis of John Kemp's Wager I wrote:

Setting: the 1820s

John Kemp, a descendant of William Kemp the Elizabeth stage-clown, lives in the fictitious village of Campden Cantorum in Somerset. He is a carpenter and joiner and a local champion, revered for his physical prowess.

A new postman has been appointed to the village, Henry Dee, who is a dishonest Londoner hoping to get rich by his appointment but resentful of having to live in a backward and remote village. He voices his opinions of the villagers' customs and lack of sophistication to them and to John Kemp. Kemp is already beginning to dislike him. The local morris troupe assemble and decide to rehearse their play. They persuade Dee to play the Dragon. Kemp plays St George and kills the Dragon, although Dee expects this Kemp gives him an extra hard beating, at which he protests. St George also goes on to kill a Turkish knight, who, however, is resurrected by the Doctor, and there is much sword dancing. Dee swears revenge against Kemp and when Virginia, Kemp's sweetheart, appears he tries to impress her with his office and uniform, but she rebuffs him.

Virginia and Kemp declare their love for each other, but Virginia has promised her mother, recently deceased, that she will not marry Kemp until she is 21. Now her mother is dead she has to support herself by being a lady's companion, and her lady is travelling to America. She promises to return in four years when she is 21 to marry Kemp. Kemp promises to work hard and save money in that period. They promise to write to each other.

Four years later and Kemp is a changed man, he is bitter because he has not heard from Virginia despite her promise to write to him and his constant letters to her. His hard work has isolated him from village life. However, now that the four years are up and Virginia has not returned he resolves to make his fortune with a wager, he wagers with the Duke of Campden to undertake three feats of prowess to be determined by the Duke, the sum wagered being 1000 guineas. The first feat proposed is for him to fight his way, against anyone who opposes him, one at a time, from the church of nearby Campden Saltorum to Campden Cantorum church. Dee, knowing Kemp is a strong swimmer, but hoping he will drown, butts in and proposes that he swim 15 miles across the Bristol Channel in his coat and topboots. Kemp agrees to these challenges and the Duke then proposes as the third challenge that Kemp will successfully deceive all of the villagers for one whole year.

The first feat Kemp easily wins, though Dee, at one points knocks him over from behind, only to be floored in turn by one the village girls. For the second feat the main characters adjourn to the shores of the Bristol Channel and the Duke provides a boat to follow Kemp and pull him out if he begins to sink. The villagers watch him anxiously and he swims strongly away from the shore only to be swallowed up in a bank of mist. At that point the Duke's boat is hit by another craft and Kemp is presumed lost.

Three years later in the village and Virginia returns, now a rich woman as her 'lady' died and left her all her property. She tells the Widow Green, the inn-keeper, that she has returned to find out what happened to John and to find out why she never heard from him. She is despondent when told that John is presumed drowned, but when she is told that John wrote constantly to her for four years and never received any letters from her she begins to suspect treachery. Dee turns up and woos Virginia, but she rebuffs him again.

John's sailor-brother Jack, who has returned to claim his brother's property and been living in the village for a year, decides to sell John's house and property by auction. As a foretaste he brings some items down to the inn and begins auctioning them off, Virginia buys some of the items and makes a bid for the whole estate.

Of course 'Jack Kemp' is really John is disguise, who swam the Channel without an accompanying boat and then went travelling, playing the fool, in the Middle East and Asia.

The Post Office catches fire and during efforts to put it out it is discovered that Dee has been enriching himself by stealing money from letters, he also detained all of John and Virginia's letters to each other. The villagers drag Dee in and are about to lynch him but Jack simply lets him go as says cannot act as judge because he is not impartial.

The next day, the year of deceiving the villagers being up, he reveals himself to the Duke and the villagers, who were completely taken in by his staid demeanour and false beard. The Duke agrees he has won his wager. Virginia appears, John woos her as Jack, she refuses him, and then he reveals his true identity and the lovers are reunited.

The villagers rejoice at the denouement and John's miraculous reappearance and the villagers and the Duke offer him a wish in honour of his forthcoming marriage. John asks that the traditional play acted in the first act have a change made to it: the player playing St George is to receive an extra whack from the dying Dragon's tail.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 30, 2021, 12:00:47 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 29, 2021, 07:26:06 PM
In fact here's a synopsis of John Kemp's Wager I wrote:

Thankyou for both of your posts - very interesting and something I knew nothing about.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 30, 2021, 12:18:43 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 30, 2021, 12:00:47 AM
Thankyou for both of your posts - very interesting and something I knew nothing about.
+1
I've also followed the posts about Robert Graves and 'Hugh the Drover' interesting - thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 30, 2021, 12:20:28 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 29, 2021, 04:14:41 PM
Yet again, I totally agree with you that "Hugh the Drover" cantata comes across as the less interevesting version of RVW's merrie England music.  The one thing though, sometimes the underscore has more depth than the crowd pleasing moments that makes its way into a suite.  A simple example, I prefer the entire Nutcracker over the suite because some of my favorite moments aren't in the suite.  Sometimes a work needs time to breathe to show it's strength structurally.  Just having a climax is boring if it didn't have to earn that climax but that developmental section probably wouldn't be in a suite.  I also agree that "Death of Tintagiles" was far more interesting but also darker.  I guess I consistently prefer meditative or dark RVW over 'Merrie England' RVW.
A most interesting analysis, with which I agree. I liked your Nutcracker point.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on October 30, 2021, 06:14:47 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 29, 2021, 07:20:34 PM
I bought a copy of the Hyperion set of Hugh the Drover in a bargain bin about 15 years ago and I have listened to it with pleasure several times. It's real VW and no sillier than any other opera. The real problem is the libretto which is very clunky. There is one passage, a quintet for the main characters, which is very impressive.

However, talk of Hugh the Drover reminded me of one of those might-have-been stories. After Hugh the Drover was produced and didn't do that well the young Robert Graves (pre Goodbye to all That and the Claudius novels) approached VW with his opera script John Kemp's Wager. Unfortunately VW didn't want to do another opera with a rural setting and was already working on other things (perhaps including Sir John in Love). This is a great pity as Graves' script is fantastic (well, for an opera libretto anyway) and it wouldn't have needed so much work as Hugh the Drover as it is a ballad opera with spoken dialogue, and all the numbers are settings of folk-songs. So VW would have just had to write an overture, a few pieces of incidental music and accompaniments to the numbers (and it would have been very congenial for him).

Graves' script was published in 1925, but has never been reprinted. However, some enterprising composer could still have a go at it and I think I would still be a worthwhile thing to do (and would pretty much write itself).

It's interesting to think about work that might have been.  I think there is a ton of sketches and uncompleted works from RVW that are quite tantalizing just imagining what might have been.

Cello Concerto
http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=IAMS040-001999190&indx=14&recIds=IAMS040-001999190&recIdxs=3&elementId=3&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&scp.scps=scope%3A%28BL%29&frbg=&tab=local&dstmp=1635603088955&srt=rank&mode=Basic&dum=true&vl(freeText0)=Vaughan%20Williams%20concerto&vid=IAMS_VU2 (http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=IAMS040-001999190&indx=14&recIds=IAMS040-001999190&recIdxs=3&elementId=3&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&scp.scps=scope%3A%28BL%29&frbg=&tab=local&dstmp=1635603088955&srt=rank&mode=Basic&dum=true&vl(freeText0)=Vaughan%20Williams%20concerto&vid=IAMS_VU2)

Thomas the Rhymer, opera
http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=IAMS032-001964875&indx=7&recIds=IAMS032-001964875&recIdxs=6&elementId=6&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&frbg=&scp.scps=scope%3A%28BL%29&tab=local&dstmp=1635603224889&srt=rank&mode=Basic&&dum=true&vl(freeText0)=Vaughan%20Williams%20Unfinished%20&vid=IAMS_VU2 (http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=IAMS032-001964875&indx=7&recIds=IAMS032-001964875&recIdxs=6&elementId=6&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&frbg=&scp.scps=scope%3A%28BL%29&tab=local&dstmp=1635603224889&srt=rank&mode=Basic&&dum=true&vl(freeText0)=Vaughan%20Williams%20Unfinished%20&vid=IAMS_VU2)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 30, 2021, 06:18:25 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 30, 2021, 06:14:47 AM
It's interesting to think about work that might have been.  I think there is a ton of sketches and uncompleted works from RVW that are quite tantalizing just imagining what might have been.

Cello Concerto
http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=IAMS040-001999190&indx=14&recIds=IAMS040-001999190&recIdxs=3&elementId=3&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&scp.scps=scope%3A%28BL%29&frbg=&tab=local&dstmp=1635603088955&srt=rank&mode=Basic&dum=true&vl(freeText0)=Vaughan%20Williams%20concerto&vid=IAMS_VU2 (http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=IAMS040-001999190&indx=14&recIds=IAMS040-001999190&recIdxs=3&elementId=3&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&scp.scps=scope%3A%28BL%29&frbg=&tab=local&dstmp=1635603088955&srt=rank&mode=Basic&dum=true&vl(freeText0)=Vaughan%20Williams%20concerto&vid=IAMS_VU2)

Thomas the Rhymer, opera
http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=IAMS032-001964875&indx=7&recIds=IAMS032-001964875&recIdxs=6&elementId=6&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&frbg=&scp.scps=scope%3A%28BL%29&tab=local&dstmp=1635603224889&srt=rank&mode=Basic&&dum=true&vl(freeText0)=Vaughan%20Williams%20Unfinished%20&vid=IAMS_VU2 (http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=IAMS032-001964875&indx=7&recIds=IAMS032-001964875&recIdxs=6&elementId=6&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&frbg=&scp.scps=scope%3A%28BL%29&tab=local&dstmp=1635603224889&srt=rank&mode=Basic&&dum=true&vl(freeText0)=Vaughan%20Williams%20Unfinished%20&vid=IAMS_VU2)
I would have loved for him to have been able to have finished a cello concerto.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 30, 2021, 01:56:13 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 30, 2021, 06:18:25 AM
I would have loved for him to have been able to have finished a cello concerto.

PD
'Dark Pastoral' was put together from the surviving sketches for a projected cello concerto:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5tquD727ik
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 30, 2021, 02:19:33 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2021, 01:56:13 PM
'Dark Pastoral' was put together from the surviving sketches for a projected cello concerto:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5tquD727ik

Most interesting!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 31, 2021, 12:24:04 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 30, 2021, 02:19:33 PM
Most interesting!
Here's some more information about it Karl.
https://www.david-matthews.co.uk/works/work.asp?criteria=all&catid=0&keywords=&workid=264&sortby=name&sortorder=asc&page=1&nosearch=True
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2021, 07:06:27 AM
Interesting...so about the first 4 minutes were actually composed by Vaughan Williams and then David Matthews took it from there?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on October 31, 2021, 07:14:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2021, 01:56:13 PM
'Dark Pastoral' was put together from the surviving sketches for a projected cello concerto:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5tquD727ik

Regardless of how much of it is "authentic" RVW, it's a beautiful work!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 31, 2021, 01:44:22 PM
I also like David Matthews 'reconstruction' of the Third Norfolk Rhapsody. This is completely lost, but there exists a detailed programme note describing the work and the folk tunes it was based on, so Matthews was able to recompose it. If the MS ever turns up it will be interesting to compare the two works!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 31, 2021, 02:55:17 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2021, 07:06:27 AM
Interesting...so about the first 4 minutes were actually composed by Vaughan Williams and then David Matthews took it from there?

PD
I think that's right PD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 01, 2021, 04:26:00 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 31, 2021, 01:44:22 PM
I also like David Matthews 'reconstruction' of the Third Norfolk Rhapsody. This is completely lost, but there exists a detailed programme note describing the work and the folk tunes it was based on, so Matthews was able to recompose it. If the MS ever turns up it will be interesting to compare the two works!
Oh, I didn't know that about their being a third Norfolk rhapsody; I was going to look it up in my Michael Kennedy book just now, but I can't remember where I put the book!   ::)  I'll try again later on--after I've had my first cup of coffee.

Annoyed at herself,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 01, 2021, 05:53:13 AM
What do you think of the unfinished opera?  Seems like it was far along if the vocal score is there and the missing part was provided by Roy Douglas.  The vocal score would basically be all the voice parts with piano accompaniment so though lacking orchestration, someone like David Matthews or Roy Douglas are quite good at approximating the orchestral style of RVW.  Would be interesting to hear a brand new major opera by RVW.

Title: THOMAS THE RHYMER. Vol. ii. Vocal score. Incomplete, lacking the end of Act III, scene i. Copy by Gustav de Mauny, but with part of Act III, scene i in the hand of Roy Douglas. Act I annotated by the composer; annotations by Roy Douglas throughout.
Collection Area: Music Collections
Reference: Add MS 70986
Creation Date: [1958]
Extent and Access:
Extent:
1 item
Language: English
Contents and Scope:
Contents:
THOMAS THE RHYMER. Vol. ii. Vocal score. Incomplete , lacking the end of Act III, scene i. Copy by Gustav de Mauny, but with part of Act III, scene i in the hand of Roy Douglas. Act I annotated by the composer; annotations by Roy Douglas throughout.

ff. ii+145. 360 x 265 and 298 x 238mm.

Richard Roy Douglas, composer and pianist: Joan Ursula Penton Vaughan Williams, formerly Wood née Lock; writer; widow of R Vaughan Williams: Ralph Vaughan Williams, OM; composer: Libretto and vocal score of unfinished opera 'Thomas the Rhymer' by R. Vaughan Williams, libretto by Ursula Vaughan Williams, with annotations by Richard Roy Douglas: [1958]: Copies, partly typewritten.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 01, 2021, 07:02:01 AM
Listened for a second time to Dark Pastoral.  Enjoyable..lovely for what it is; I am having a bit of a hard time not wondering where VW would have gone with it in terms of a concerto though.

Found my Kennedy book.  Very little about it in there other than that Vaughan Williams was "continually 'tinkering' with it and that he would have liked to have completed it in time to have it for a special concert for Casal's 80th birthday, but instead arranged something else for it.  Also, at the back of the boo under "Selected List of Works", then "Uncompleted" it lists Cello Concerto.  Sketches 1942-3.  Three movements:  Rhapsody, Lento, Finale.  Intended for Casals."

And it also lists after that the opera that Relm1 is wondering about.

In answer to your question R1, could be interesting to hear it.  I know the folk song (by Fairport Convention) about Tam Lin (which apparently was used as a source in Ursula's libretto along with Thomas The Rhymer--which I don't know anything about).

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 01, 2021, 07:19:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2021, 01:56:13 PM
'Dark Pastoral' was put together from the surviving sketches for a projected cello concerto:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5tquD727ik

As anticipated, a beauty!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian Redux on December 22, 2021, 11:39:01 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91xILGsaXkL._SS500_.jpg)

Well, it's been a while. But a few days ago I stumbled across a CD I haven't played for ages, and popped VW's Phantasy Quintet into the player. When I got to the slow movement, and that exquisite tune, my eyes filled with tears and I just heartached my way through to the end. Since then I've played it every day.

For some unaccountable reason I had forgotten completely about this piece, even though I have a vague memory of having discussed it here years ago. It's not that I don't listen to VW: I do. I listened to most of the symphonies recently, and the Wasps, and stuff like that. But not this. How on earth did I ever forget about this?

Anyway, be that all as it may. My reason for resurrecting myself and troubling my old chums at GMG with this news is that maybe you can explain to me why this piece is (relatively) little known, and rarely commented on? Is it musically simplistic in some way that makes it of less interest to people who really understand music? (You'll realise that I don't number myself among them.) What does Karl think, for instance? Am I on my own in finding it utterly adorable? Are there any Old Softies out there like me who reach for the Kleenex when they hear it?

I've just been scouring the web for alternative recordings of it, and have found a few and ordered them (Nash, English String Quartet, and Medici), so my New Year will be flooded with Phantasy Quintetness. That seems like something to perk up 2022.

Merry Christmas to all. I hope you're all OK in these troubled times.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on December 22, 2021, 11:50:00 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on December 22, 2021, 11:39:01 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91xILGsaXkL._SS500_.jpg)

Well, it's been a while. But a few days ago I stumbled across a CD I haven't played for ages, and popped VW's Phantasy Quintet into the player. When I got to the slow movement, and that exquisite tune, my eyes filled with tears and I just heartached my way through to the end. Since then I've played it every day.

For some unaccountable reason I had forgotten completely about this piece, even though I have a vague memory of having discussed it here years ago. It's not that I don't listen to VW: I do. I listened to most of the symphonies recently, and the Wasps, and stuff like that. But not this. How on earth did I ever forget about this?

Anyway, be that all as it may. My reason for resurrecting myself and troubling my old chums at GMG with this news is that maybe you can explain to me why this piece is (relatively) little known, and rarely commented on? Is it musically simplistic in some way that makes it of less interest to people who really understand music? (You'll realise that I don't number myself among them.) What does Karl think, for instance? Am I on my own in finding it utterly adorable? Are there any Old Softies out there like me who reach for the Kleenex when they hear it?

I've just been scouring the web for alternative recordings of it, and have found a few and ordered them (Nash, English String Quartet, and Medici), so my New Year will be flooded with Phantasy Quintetness. That seems like something to perk up 2022.

Merry Christmas to all. I hope you're all OK in these troubled times.

One of the best Naxos releases regarding Vaughan Williams IMO. Absolutely great music, and that Phantasy Quintet is a delight indeed!

Merry Christmas to you too!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian Redux on December 22, 2021, 11:55:44 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 22, 2021, 11:50:00 AM
One of the best Naxos releases regarding Vaughan Williams IMO. Absolutely great music, and that Phantasy Quintet is a delight indeed!

Merry Christmas to you too!

Oh bless you. There are Two of Us, then!!

You realise of course that I'm not in any sense ignoring the two quartets. They are scrumptious in a truly VW-ish way. But they don't make me burst into tears. That's the thing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2021, 12:10:45 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on December 22, 2021, 11:39:01 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91xILGsaXkL._SS500_.jpg)

Well, it's been a while. But a few days ago I stumbled across a CD I haven't played for ages, and popped VW's Phantasy Quintet into the player. When I got to the slow movement, and that exquisite tune, my eyes filled with tears and I just heartached my way through to the end. Since then I've played it every day.

For some unaccountable reason I had forgotten completely about this piece, even though I have a vague memory of having discussed it here years ago. It's not that I don't listen to VW: I do. I listened to most of the symphonies recently, and the Wasps, and stuff like that. But not this. How on earth did I ever forget about this?

Anyway, be that all as it may. My reason for resurrecting myself and troubling my old chums at GMG with this news is that maybe you can explain to me why this piece is (relatively) little known, and rarely commented on? Is it musically simplistic in some way that makes it of less interest to people who really understand music? (You'll realise that I don't number myself among them.) What does Karl think, for instance? Am I on my own in finding it utterly adorable? Are there any Old Softies out there like me who reach for the Kleenex when they hear it?

I've just been scouring the web for alternative recordings of it, and have found a few and ordered them (Nash, English String Quartet, and Medici), so my New Year will be flooded with Phantasy Quintetness. That seems like something to perk up 2022.

Merry Christmas to all. I hope you're all OK in these troubled times.

It is just possible that I've neglected the Phantasy Quintet thus far. Clearly this must be remedied!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian Redux on December 23, 2021, 07:27:13 AM
I suddenly had a brainwave. Maybe, I thought, there's a recording of the Phantasy Quintet in that big EMI 30CD VW box, which I haven't looked at in a while. And there is! It's the Music Group of London playing, and it has Hugh Bean in it (yes, really: Hugh Bean of Elgar's Violin Concerto fame). Into the player it went.

Well it was nice of course. Very nice, actually. But unlike my repeatedly blubbering response to the Maggini (Naxos) version, my eyes stayed stubbornly dry throughout the slow movement.

I await the arrival of Nash, Medici, and English String versions, and have a new box of Kleenex at the ready.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2021, 07:41:29 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on December 23, 2021, 07:27:13 AM
I suddenly had a brainwave. Maybe, I thought, there's a recording of the Phantasy Quintet in that big EMI 30CD VW box, which I haven't looked at in a while. And there is! It's the Music Group of London playing, and it has Hugh Bean in it (yes, really: Hugh Bean of Elgar's Violin Concerto fame). Into the player it went.

Well it was nice of course. Very nice, actually. But unlike my repeatedly blubbering response to the Maggini (Naxos) version, my eyes stayed stubbornly dry throughout the slow movement.

I await the arrival of Nash, Medici, and English String versions, and have a new box of Kleenex at the ready.



May your Kleenex ever suffice!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: bhodges on December 23, 2021, 08:11:41 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on December 22, 2021, 11:39:01 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91xILGsaXkL._SS500_.jpg)

Well, it's been a while. But a few days ago I stumbled across a CD I haven't played for ages, and popped VW's Phantasy Quintet into the player. When I got to the slow movement, and that exquisite tune, my eyes filled with tears and I just heartached my way through to the end. Since then I've played it every day.

For some unaccountable reason I had forgotten completely about this piece, even though I have a vague memory of having discussed it here years ago. It's not that I don't listen to VW: I do. I listened to most of the symphonies recently, and the Wasps, and stuff like that. But not this. How on earth did I ever forget about this?

Anyway, be that all as it may. My reason for resurrecting myself and troubling my old chums at GMG with this news is that maybe you can explain to me why this piece is (relatively) little known, and rarely commented on? Is it musically simplistic in some way that makes it of less interest to people who really understand music? (You'll realise that I don't number myself among them.) What does Karl think, for instance? Am I on my own in finding it utterly adorable? Are there any Old Softies out there like me who reach for the Kleenex when they hear it?

I've just been scouring the web for alternative recordings of it, and have found a few and ordered them (Nash, English String Quartet, and Medici), so my New Year will be flooded with Phantasy Quintetness. That seems like something to perk up 2022.

Merry Christmas to all. I hope you're all OK in these troubled times.

Greetings, Elgarian, and glad to see you back! Despite being a VW fan, I have never heard this piece, and intend to rectify that over the holidays. Replying to the part bolded above, I can only comment on what I perceive in the U.S., which starts with VW being generally underplayed in this country. Aside from a handful of works like The Lark Ascending, the fantasias on Tallis and Greensleeves, and perhaps a few others, you just don't see many opportunities to hear his work. I can't remember when a major orchestra here programmed any of the symphonies. And chamber music is (sadly) often at the bottom of the list, for some listeners. Looking at his enormous catalogue, it is a bit eye-opening, realizing how much we haven't heard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Ralph_Vaughan_Williams

So I'll listen soon, and am off to replenish tissues, just in case.  8)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 23, 2021, 09:24:26 AM
Nice to see you in these parts again, Elgarian! I have the EMI recording featuring Hugh Bean, as well as the Nash Ensemble recording. I seem to remember listening to the Nash Ensemble, but I don't have a distinct memory of it. Will try to find time to give a listen to it soon (probably the Nash Ensemble).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian Redux on December 23, 2021, 10:29:27 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 23, 2021, 07:41:29 AM
May your Kleenex ever suffice!

I suppose we can measure the success of the experiment by the boxfuls of Kleenex consumed, Karl.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian Redux on December 23, 2021, 10:36:28 AM
Quote from: Brewski on December 23, 2021, 08:11:41 AM
Despite being a VW fan, I have never heard this piece, and intend to rectify that over the holidays.

This is exactly what I mean, Bruce. I've been a VW fan since I was nobbut a lad, and I had never heard of the Phantasy Quintet until really quite recently. So here's you, and here's me - two of us just for starters - and that Sarabande movement is so heartmeltingly beautiful that our ignorance of it beggars belief.

QuoteReplying to the part bolded above, I can only comment on what I perceive in the U.S., which starts with VW being generally underplayed in this country. Aside from a handful of works like The Lark Ascending, the fantasias on Tallis and Greensleeves, and perhaps a few others, you just don't see many opportunities to hear his work. I can't remember when a major orchestra here programmed any of the symphonies. And chamber music is (sadly) often at the bottom of the list, for some listeners. Looking at his enormous catalogue, it is a bit eye-opening, realizing how much we haven't heard.

More understandable outside the UK of course. But even so here in England it evaded me for over 50 years.


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian Redux on December 23, 2021, 10:38:41 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on December 23, 2021, 09:24:26 AM
Nice to see you in these parts again, Elgarian! I have the EMI recording featuring Hugh Bean, as well as the Nash Ensemble recording. I seem to remember listening to the Nash Ensemble, but I don't have a distinct memory of it. Will try to find time to give a listen to it soon (probably the Nash Ensemble).

Scarps!! Why, this is a regular gathering of the clans. Delighted to see you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: bhodges on December 23, 2021, 05:42:54 PM
Will simply repost what I wrote on the WAYLT thread:

Vaughan Williams: Phantasy Quintet (Daishin Kashimoto, Natalia Lomeiko - violins; Yuri Zhislin, Joaquin Riquelme Garcia - viola; Claudio Bohorquez - cello) -- A live recording from the International Chamber Music Festival in Provence, from August 2020.

First time hearing this piece, after praise from others here, and heavens, it's well worth a listen. (And if you hate it, it's only 15 minutes.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGMVS9Zk3tI

--Bruce
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 23, 2021, 09:49:01 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on December 22, 2021, 11:39:01 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91xILGsaXkL._SS500_.jpg)

Well, it's been a while. But a few days ago I stumbled across a CD I haven't played for ages, and popped VW's Phantasy Quintet into the player. When I got to the slow movement, and that exquisite tune, my eyes filled with tears and I just heartached my way through to the end. Since then I've played it every day.

For some unaccountable reason I had forgotten completely about this piece, even though I have a vague memory of having discussed it here years ago. It's not that I don't listen to VW: I do. I listened to most of the symphonies recently, and the Wasps, and stuff like that. But not this. How on earth did I ever forget about this?

Anyway, be that all as it may. My reason for resurrecting myself and troubling my old chums at GMG with this news is that maybe you can explain to me why this piece is (relatively) little known, and rarely commented on? Is it musically simplistic in some way that makes it of less interest to people who really understand music? (You'll realise that I don't number myself among them.) What does Karl think, for instance? Am I on my own in finding it utterly adorable? Are there any Old Softies out there like me who reach for the Kleenex when they hear it?

I've just been scouring the web for alternative recordings of it, and have found a few and ordered them (Nash, English String Quartet, and Medici), so my New Year will be flooded with Phantasy Quintetness. That seems like something to perk up 2022.

Merry Christmas to all. I hope you're all OK in these troubled times.

I retrieved my recording by the Nash Ensemble, and I find the music enchanting and but the recording/performance somewhat unsatisfactory. It is hard to quantify, but it gives me the impression that there is a gauze over the music that the performers can't quite break through, perhaps due to the rather dry audio environment, lacking a sense of space in which the music unfolds. Undaunted, I have other performances at my fingertips to try.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 23, 2021, 10:13:31 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on December 23, 2021, 07:27:13 AM
I suddenly had a brainwave. Maybe, I thought, there's a recording of the Phantasy Quintet in that big EMI 30CD VW box, which I haven't looked at in a while. And there is! It's the Music Group of London playing, and it has Hugh Bean in it (yes, really: Hugh Bean of Elgar's Violin Concerto fame). Into the player it went.

Well it was nice of course. Very nice, actually. But unlike my repeatedly blubbering response to the Maggini (Naxos) version, my eyes stayed stubbornly dry throughout the slow movement.

I await the arrival of Nash, Medici, and English String versions, and have a new box of Kleenex at the ready.
Hello.

I have and have enjoyed the recording with the Maggini and also, like you, own that big EMI set (The Collector's Edition) too.  I'll revisit the Maggini recording later on today.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 23, 2021, 10:32:51 PM
It's a brief piece, so easy to queue it up and listen again.

I put on the EMI recording with the Hugh Bean and the Music Group of London. I must say on a purely sensual level I found their sound production much more satisfying than the Nash Ensemble recording, although the dynamics were somewhat more reserved and some of the passages (particularly in the first movement) that blossom into an almost orchestral sensuality in the Nash Ensemble recording don't quite make the same impression. Overall, though, I found Hugh Bean and company more successful in conveying the mood of the piece. Perhaps the vintage 1973 Abbey Road engineering helped create the impression. The Maggini recording also made a strong case for the music, perhaps not as atmospheric to my ear as the Music Group of London, but bring out many interesting details.

In any case, thanks Elgarian for bringing attention to this wonderful music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 23, 2021, 11:58:54 PM
It's also available here:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian Redux on December 24, 2021, 01:19:12 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 23, 2021, 11:58:54 PM
It's also available here:
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=80584;image)

Thanks Jeffrey. This is the one I've ordered by the same ensemble (see below) but I wonder if it's the same recording?

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tFqWLByGL.__AC_SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian Redux on December 24, 2021, 01:25:54 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on December 23, 2021, 10:32:51 PM
It's a brief piece, so easy to queue it up and listen again.

I put on the EMI recording with the Hugh Bean and the Music Group of London. I must say on a purely sensual level I found their sound production much more satisfying than the Nash Ensemble recording, although the dynamics were somewhat more reserved and some of the passages (particularly in the first movement) that blossom into an almost orchestral sensuality in the Nash Ensemble recording don't quite make the same impression. Overall, though, I found Hugh Bean and company more successful in conveying the mood of the piece. Perhaps the vintage 1973 Abbey Road engineering helped create the impression. The Maggini recording also made a strong case for the music, perhaps not as atmospheric to my ear as the Music Group of London, but bring out many interesting details.

In any case, thanks Elgarian for bringing attention to this wonderful music.

Your descriptions are more valuable than mine because you're actually describing what you heard. The best I've managed is the Old Softie's distinction: 'It made me cry'/ 'It did not make me cry'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 24, 2021, 06:35:48 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on December 24, 2021, 01:25:54 AM
Your descriptions are more valuable than mine because you're actually describing what you heard. The best I've managed is the Old Softie's distinction: 'It made me cry'/ 'It did not make me cry'.

I have never felt myself teary-eyed after listening to music. The strongest reaction I can have is a feeling of awe, sort of like cresting a hill to unexpectedly see a panoramic overlook. It happened with Barbirolli's recording of the Tallis Fantasia, and more recently with Barbirolli's recording of RVW's second symphony, 'Lento' movement. I guess Barbirolli/RVW is a combination with high likelihood of creating a feeling of awe in me.

The Phantasy Quintet didn't quite get me to that level, but listening to the 1973 Hugh Bean recording I had a vision of those old school, large diaphragm condenser microphones on cumbersome microphone booms, glowing vacuum tubes, and a man in a tweed suite leaning over an open-reel tape recorder, muttering to himself, "jolly good," as the reels spun rapidly. :)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian Redux on December 25, 2021, 12:26:14 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on December 24, 2021, 06:35:48 PM
I have never felt myself teary-eyed after listening to music. The strongest reaction I can have is a feeling of awe, sort of like cresting a hill to unexpectedly see a panoramic overlook. It happened with Barbirolli's recording of the Tallis Fantasia, and more recently with Barbirolli's recording of RVW's second symphony, 'Lento' movement. I guess Barbirolli/RVW is a combination with high likelihood of creating a feeling of awe in me.

The Phantasy Quintet didn't quite get me to that level, but listening to the 1973 Hugh Bean recording I had a vision of those old school, large diaphragm condenser microphones on cumbersome microphone booms, glowing vacuum tubes, and a man in a tweed suite leaning over an open-reel tape recorder, muttering to himself, "jolly good," as the reels spun rapidly. :)

I should say that weepiness with music is not a common thing for me either. Few pieces have made me weepy in the past, but much depends on mood. However, I do like your description of 'a feeling of awe, sort of like cresting a hill to unexpectedly see a panoramic overlook'. That's very like my usual reaction to music that moves me strongly.

The strange thing about the Phantasy Quintet is that the part that sets me off is really just the first 6 notes of the main tune in the third movement. I start tearing up at about note 3, and by the time I get to the sixth note, I'm experiencing a sort of ache - a sense of longing, of heartache, of hopes that can be dreamed of but never fulfilled - that I can barely cope with.

I've never understood what's going on at such times.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 26, 2021, 11:16:46 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on December 25, 2021, 12:26:14 AM
I should say that weepiness with music is not a common thing for me either. Few pieces have made me weepy in the past, but much depends on mood. However, I do like your description of 'a feeling of awe, sort of like cresting a hill to unexpectedly see a panoramic overlook'. That's very like my usual reaction to music that moves me strongly.

The strange thing about the Phantasy Quintet is that the part that sets me off is really just the first 6 notes of the main tune in the third movement. I start tearing up at about note 3, and by the time I get to the sixth note, I'm experiencing a sort of ache - a sense of longing, of heartache, of hopes that can be dreamed of but never fulfilled - that I can barely cope with.

I've never understood what's going on at such times.

I've just listened to a piece of music which has a generally similar effect on me, Sibelius 5th symphony. Particularly the final movement when the "swan theme" first enters on horns, and then is shortly joined by a countermelody played by woodwinds and strings. The swan theme, inexorably unfolding, suggests unyielding fate to me, while the counter melody suggests a poignant, vulnerable response. My brother described it as "like a memory of childhood" and I think that captures it. Or course the music moves on, first sort of disintegrating into dust, then building to a grinding climax with trumpets replacing horns in declaring the swan theme.

There are many recordings of this music that I enjoy; today I listened to Barbirolli/Halle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 26, 2021, 11:56:45 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on December 24, 2021, 01:19:12 AM
Thanks Jeffrey. This is the one I've ordered by the same ensemble (see below) but I wonder if it's the same recording?

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tFqWLByGL.__AC_SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
Yes, I'm sure it's the same. Alto often released recordings which were originally issued on labels which no longer exist. Unicorn issued many fine records.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on December 27, 2021, 01:31:02 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on December 24, 2021, 06:35:48 PM


The Phantasy Quintet didn't quite get me to that level, but listening to the 1973 Hugh Bean recording I had a vision of those old school, large diaphragm condenser microphones on cumbersome microphone booms, glowing vacuum tubes, and a man in a tweed suite leaning over an open-reel tape recorder, muttering to himself, "jolly good," as the reels spun rapidly. :)

Not sure Stuart Eltham ever wore a tweed suit but still loved your description of the recording sessions. Made me feel all nostalgic. :)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on December 27, 2021, 02:13:40 AM
Hmph. Confusing 1972 with 1952 more like.  I should know, I was there for both.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Elgarian Redux on December 27, 2021, 03:03:11 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on December 26, 2021, 11:16:46 PM
The swan theme, inexorably unfolding, suggests unyielding fate to me, while the counter melody suggests a poignant, vulnerable response. My brother described it as "like a memory of childhood" and I think that captures it.

I can empathise with all of this, especially the 'memory of childhood' part, though I wonder if it's a feeling for what childhood could have been, rather than what it actually was. At any rate, always there's a sense of something supremely desirable, yet just beyond grasp - so as you say there's the suggestion of vulnerability in the face of fate. How the trigger for this gets into the music in the first place, though, is quite beyond me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 08, 2022, 01:03:29 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 22, 2021, 12:10:45 PM
It is just possible that I've neglected the Phantasy Quintet thus far. Clearly this must be remedied!
+1 Am playing it now - a fine work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 19, 2022, 12:58:43 PM
I've just pre-ordered this book (which comes out in June 2022 in UK - great cover photo)). It's in the 'Master Musicians' Series and presumably replaces the (very fine) biography written by the late James Day:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 25, 2022, 03:53:55 AM
Just received this very nice looking publication (100 pages, including many illustrations), commemorating the 150th Anniversary of the composer's birth in 1872:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 25, 2022, 09:00:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 25, 2022, 03:53:55 AM
Just received this very nice looking publication (100 pages, including many illustrations), commemorating the 150th Anniversary of the composer's birth in 1872:
(//)
Neat!  Who put it out and what is the CD of?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 25, 2022, 04:50:18 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 25, 2022, 03:53:55 AM
Just received this very nice looking publication (100 pages, including many illustrations), commemorating the 150th Anniversary of the composer's birth in 1872:
(//)

Oh I want this!  A favorite composer of mine.  How to get this?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 25, 2022, 11:45:10 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 25, 2022, 09:00:52 AM
Neat!  Who put it out and what is the CD of?

PD

+1  :P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 26, 2022, 02:56:45 AM
Time to spill the beans Jeffrey!  :D

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2022, 04:36:03 AM
Just seen the requests. It's published by 'Choir & Organ'.
Here's the website:

http://www.rhinegold.co.uk/rhinegold-publishing/magazines/choir-organ/

The VW 150th anniversary publication comes up on the front page.

Obviously I'm ordering from the UK but I'm sure that it's possible to get it sent overseas.

The CD freebie consists of extracts from Albion Music CD releases. It has some nice works like the piano piece 'The Lake in the Mountains' included.

It's a one-off publication so you don't need a subscription to order it.

PS
This link seems to take you directly to the order page:

https://www.magsubscriptions.com/vaughan-williams?utm_source=CHO&utm_medium=newsstory&utm_campaign=RVW150

Hope that helps  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 26, 2022, 04:42:27 AM
Thanks! :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2022, 04:45:12 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 26, 2022, 04:42:27 AM
Thanks! :)

PD

My pleasure PD. I just added another link to my message above.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2022, 11:20:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 25, 2022, 03:53:55 AM
Just received this very nice looking publication (100 pages, including many illustrations), commemorating the 150th Anniversary of the composer's birth in 1872:
(//)
I've been listening to the accompanying CD tonight with much pleasure.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 26, 2022, 11:33:51 AM
Very nice, in a parallel universe I am ordering this 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2022, 11:36:06 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 26, 2022, 11:33:51 AM
Very nice, in a parallel universe I am ordering this 8)
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 05, 2022, 11:49:37 PM
Just wanted to say how much I have been enjoying this new release - a piano duet version of the 1920 edition of A London Symphony. I'm really glad that it features the 1920 version, which retains the intensely poetic final sections which the composer later (and mistakenly IMO) excised. Also the piano and organ version of Finzi's beautiful 'Eclogue' is well worth hearing. I've played this CD several times already:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 06, 2022, 02:25:09 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2022, 11:49:37 PM
Just wanted to say how much I have been enjoying this new release - a piano duet version of the 1920 edition of A London Symphony. I'm really glad that it features the 1920 version, which retains the intensely poetic final sections which the composer later (and mistakenly IMO) excised. Also the piano and organ version of Finzi's beautiful 'Eclogue' is well worth hearing. I've played this CD several times already:


I have this CD but have not yet heard it.  I find it interesting that the 1920 version of the symphony was used to produce both the 2 piano and solo piano versions of the work.  As far as I know there isn't a piano reduction of the 1934 final revision.  Whether this was just down to the publishers maximising revenue streams when the work was relatively new I don't know.  Vally Lasker was responsible for the solo piano version - she also did the solo piano version of Job

Here's a nice photo - Vally Lasker is standing behind and between RVW and Holst.....

(https://rvwsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Holst-and-Vaughan-Williams-family.jpg)

VW's first wife Adeline is to the left looking at VW, then its Nora Day who taught at St. Pauls and played the 2 piano version of various scores with Lasker and finally Dorothy Longman - one of VW's oldest friends having been a neighbour at Leith Hill Place
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 06, 2022, 04:30:26 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 06, 2022, 02:25:09 AM
I have this CD but have not yet heard it.  I find it interesting that the 1920 version of the symphony was used to produce both the 2 piano and solo piano versions of the work.  As far as I know there isn't a piano reduction of the 1934 final revision.  Whether this was just down to the publishers maximising revenue streams when the work was relatively new I don't know.  Vally Lasker was responsible for the solo piano version - she also did the solo piano version of Job

Here's a nice photo - Vally Lasker is standing behind and between RVW and Holst.....

(https://rvwsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Holst-and-Vaughan-Williams-family.jpg)

VW's first wife Adeline is to the left looking at VW, then its Nora Day who taught at St. Pauls and played the 2 piano version of various scores with Lasker and finally Dorothy Longman - one of VW's oldest friends having been a neighbour at Leith Hill Place
Interesting photo and thank you for identifying everyone. Adeline looks slightly less stony-faced than usual.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 07, 2022, 08:17:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 06, 2022, 04:30:26 AM
Interesting photo and thank you for identifying everyone. Adeline looks slightly less stony-faced than usual.

Obviously the photographer didn't say cheese.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 07, 2022, 08:24:05 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 07, 2022, 08:17:28 AM
Obviously the photographer didn't say cheese.
Apparently not!
;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 07, 2022, 08:45:41 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2022, 11:49:37 PM
Just wanted to say how much I have been enjoying this new release - a piano duet version of the 1920 edition of A London Symphony. I'm really glad that it features the 1920 version, which retains the intensely poetic final sections which the composer later (and mistakenly IMO) excised. Also the piano and organ version of Finzi's beautiful 'Eclogue' is well worth hearing. I've played this CD several times already:
(//)

You're reminding me I have the Hyperion recording of the 1920 version. I decided to prepare for it by listening to the familiar version so I would notice the differences.  I chose the the Barbirolli recording. After listening to the Barbirolli recording, there didn't seem to be a reason to ever listen to another recording of the piece. :)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 07, 2022, 09:38:24 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 07, 2022, 08:45:41 AM
You're reminding me I have the Hyperion recording of the 1920 version. I decided to prepare for it by listening to the familiar version so I would notice the differences.  I chose the the Barbirolli recording. After listening to the Barbirolli recording, there didn't seem to be a reason to ever listen to another recording of the piece. :)
I really like that Hyperion CD, which is my favourite of the 1920 version. I hardly ever listen to the 1936 version now as it excludes my favourite section just before the Epilogue. If I listen to the 1936 version I'm acutely aware of this missing section which spoils my enjoyment. I agree with Michael Kennedy who said that the 1936 version jumps too abruptly to the Epilogue. I like all Barbirolli's VW recordings including both recordings (PYE/EMI) of A London Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 07, 2022, 11:02:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 07, 2022, 09:38:24 AM
I really like that Hyperion CD, which is my favourite of the 1920 version. I hardly ever listen to the 1936 version now as it excludes my favourite section just before the Epilogue. If I listen to the 1936 version I'm acutely aware of this missing section which spoils my enjoyment. I agree with Michael Kennedy who said that the 1936 version jumps too abruptly to the Epilogue. I like all Barbirolli's VW recordings including both recordings (PYE/EMI) of A London Symphony.

Ok, you've convinced me to pull up the Hickox recording of the original version. My reservation is that I don't know the work well enough to recognize when I'm hearing the parts that were removed.

Looking at the Wikipedia page, I see that the cuts between 1914 and 1920 are more extensive than the subsequent cuts from 1920 to 1933. Do you prefer the 1914 or 1920 version?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 07, 2022, 11:30:17 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 07, 2022, 11:02:53 AM
Ok, you've convinced me to pull up the Hickox recording of the original version. My reservation is that I don't know the work well enough to recognize when I'm hearing the parts that were removed.

Looking at the Wikipedia page, I see that the cuts between 1914 and 1920 are more extensive than the subsequent cuts from 1920 to 1933. Do you prefer the 1914 or 1920 version?
I like them both but if I had to choose I'd go for the 1920 version. I was lucky to hear the 1913 version live in London - the first performance since c.1920 with Hickox conducting. If you listen to the last few minutes of the 1936 version and then do the same with the 1920 or 1913 version I suspect that you'd be able to spot the difference - there's an intensely poetic section which had disappeared by 1936. The other obvious omission is a discordant section at the end of the Lento second movement. Bax, Hermann and Boult all remonstrated with Vaughan Williams about these excisions and I think they were right.
May be of interest?
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/oct/25/vaughan-williams-london-symphony-1920-cd-review-bbc-scottish-so-brabbins-hyperion

PS I'm playing the two piano version of the 1920 London Symphony now and really enjoying it:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 07, 2022, 04:12:46 PM
You've made your case, I'll queue up the 1920 version on Hyperion and give a listen when I can.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 07, 2022, 04:23:32 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 07, 2022, 11:30:17 AM
I like them both but if I had to choose I'd go for the 1920 version. I was lucky to hear the 1913 version live in London - the first performance since c.1920 with Hickox conducting. If you listen to the last few minutes of the 1936 version and then do the same with the 1920 or 1913 version I suspect that you'd be able to spot the difference - there's an intensely poetic section which had disappeared by 1936. The other obvious omission is a discordant section at the end of the Lento second movement. Bax, Hermann and Boult all remonstrated with Vaughan Williams about these excisions and I think they were right.
May be of interest?
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/oct/25/vaughan-williams-london-symphony-1920-cd-review-bbc-scottish-so-brabbins-hyperion

PS I'm playing the two piano version of the 1920 London Symphony now and really enjoying it:
(//)

I love the 1913 version the most but not the Hickox recording but it's the only one!  I'm too damn picky!  The rhapsodic moments are very fine and yes do impact the taughtness.  That's allowed when the material is so of interest.  Too taught can be boring.  It's so great that we have a choice but with all great composers no one single version addresses all concerns. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 07, 2022, 11:50:52 PM
Quote from: relm1 on February 07, 2022, 04:23:32 PM
I love the 1913 version the most but not the Hickox recording but it's the only one!  I'm too damn picky!  The rhapsodic moments are very fine and yes do impact the taughtness.  That's allowed when the material is so of interest.  Too taught can be boring.  It's so great that we have a choice but with all great composers no one single version addresses all concerns.

Its what I said to my teachers at school when they accused me of not listening......."too taught can be boring...."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 08, 2022, 12:01:46 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 07, 2022, 04:23:32 PM
I love the 1913 version the most but not the Hickox recording but it's the only one!  I'm too damn picky!  The rhapsodic moments are very fine and yes do impact the taughtness.  That's allowed when the material is so of interest.  Too taught can be boring.  It's so great that we have a choice but with all great composers no one single version addresses all concerns.
I'm curious to know why the 1913 version was only allowed one recording (and two performances I think) but the 1920 version does not appear to be subject to similar restrictions. Including the new piano version I think that there are four recordings so far (Goossens, Yates, Brabbins, piano version with Arnold/Matthews).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 08, 2022, 12:15:41 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 07, 2022, 04:12:46 PM
You've made your case, I'll queue up the 1920 version on Hyperion and give a listen when I can.
Excellent!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 08, 2022, 12:17:58 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 07, 2022, 04:23:32 PM
I love the 1913 version the most but not the Hickox recording but it's the only one!  I'm too damn picky!  The rhapsodic moments are very fine and yes do impact the taughtness.  That's allowed when the material is so of interest.  Too taught can be boring.  It's so great that we have a choice but with all great composers no one single version addresses all concerns.
Yes, I was so interested when I discovered Goossens old recording with the Cincinnati SO which was the first time that I heard any of the 'missing' sections.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 08, 2022, 01:15:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 08, 2022, 12:01:46 AM
I'm curious to know why the 1913 version was only allowed one recording (and two performances I think) but the 1920 version does not appear to be subject to similar restrictions. Including the new piano version I think that there are four recordings so far (Goossens, Yates, Brabbins, piano version with Arnold/Matthews).

Perhaps the distinction is that the 1920 version was published and that the prior versions exist in form of unpublished manuscripts that can only be obtained from the owner. Copyright law is complicated and varies in different countries, but in the U.S. things published before 1923 are considered public domain.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 08, 2022, 02:24:02 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 08, 2022, 01:15:47 AM
Perhaps the distinction is that the 1920 version was published and that the prior versions exist in form of unpublished manuscripts that can only be obtained from the owner. Copyright law is complicated and varies in different countries, but in the U.S. things published before 1923 are considered public domain.

Not only was the 1920 edition published but it done so as part of the prestigious "Carnegie Collection of British Music"

(https://www.momh.org.uk/media/dyn-images/main-lrg-300.jpg)

Rather frustratingly (naughtily?) Stainer and Bell retained this cover when they subsequently published the 1934 final revision with a tiny amendment to the top right hand of the cover to the effect of it being the "revised" edition.  I know because I bought a copy thinking it was a rare 1920 score only to find it was the 'standard' revision.......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 08, 2022, 03:12:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 07, 2022, 11:30:17 AM
I like them both but if I had to choose I'd go for the 1920 version. I was lucky to hear the 1913 version live in London - the first performance since c.1920 with Hickox conducting. If you listen to the last few minutes of the 1936 version and then do the same with the 1920 or 1913 version I suspect that you'd be able to spot the difference - there's an intensely poetic section which had disappeared by 1936. The other obvious omission is a discordant section at the end of the Lento second movement. Bax, Hermann and Boult all remonstrated with Vaughan Williams about these excisions and I think they were right.
May be of interest?
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/oct/25/vaughan-williams-london-symphony-1920-cd-review-bbc-scottish-so-brabbins-hyperion

PS I'm playing the two piano version of the 1920 London Symphony now and really enjoying it:
(//)
Lucky you jeffrey!  That must have been quite special to have been there and to have seen and heard it live.  :)

Sorry, I had missed the discussion as to which Hyperion CD you were referring to?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 08, 2022, 06:36:21 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 08, 2022, 01:15:47 AM
Perhaps the distinction is that the 1920 version was published and that the prior versions exist in form of unpublished manuscripts that can only be obtained from the owner. Copyright law is complicated and varies in different countries, but in the U.S. things published before 1923 are considered public domain.
Very good point Arthur - makes good sense. I think that the original version is housed in the British Museum.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 08, 2022, 06:37:18 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 08, 2022, 02:24:02 AM
Not only was the 1920 edition published but it done so as part of the prestigious "Carnegie Collection of British Music"

(https://www.momh.org.uk/media/dyn-images/main-lrg-300.jpg)

Rather frustratingly (naughtily?) Stainer and Bell retained this cover when they subsequently published the 1934 final revision with a tiny amendment to the top right hand of the cover to the effect of it being the "revised" edition.  I know because I bought a copy thinking it was a rare 1920 score only to find it was the 'standard' revision.......
I see that it's inscribed and signed by the Great Man himself!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 08, 2022, 06:41:52 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 08, 2022, 03:12:29 AM
Lucky you jeffrey!  That must have been quite special to have been there and to have seen and heard it live.  :)

Sorry, I had missed the discussion as to which Hyperion CD you were referring to?

PD
This one PD and yes, it was a great occasion - I briefly spoke to the conductor Richard Hickox when I got him to sign my programme:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 08, 2022, 07:18:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 08, 2022, 06:41:52 AM
This one PD and yes, it was a great occasion - I briefly spoke to the conductor Richard Hickox when I got him to sign my programme:
(//)
Thanks!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 08, 2022, 08:42:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 08, 2022, 06:41:52 AM
This one PD and yes, it was a great occasion - I briefly spoke to the conductor Richard Hickox when I got him to sign my programme:
(//)

I like Brabbins' London Symphony but the coupling bugs me a lot (clearly I have too much time in my life....)  The RCM has no such ensemble as a Brass Band.  In other words this is a symphonic brass ensemble - very well played for sure but one that sounds very different indeed from a "proper" brass band.  Rant over......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 08, 2022, 09:17:08 AM
I think I will try Brabbins vs Haitink in a movement by movement comparison of the London Symphony, so I can get my head around the revisions. Unless, of course, I hear strong objections to Haitink. I also have Boult (Decca), Previn, Slatkin, Andrew Davis, Thompson cycles.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 08, 2022, 12:20:40 PM
I have been enjoying the two-piano version of the 1920 London Symphony. I have never listened to a piano reduction of an orchestral work before and was amazed by how much of the orchestral texture still remains. The other pieces on the disk are good too.

Brabbins' recording of the 1920 version is a favourite of mine, it seems much more folky than other versions I have heard.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 09, 2022, 05:16:00 AM
In preparation for my listening to the 1920 version I listened to the first movement with Brabbins along side a recording of the final 1933 version. Actually I ended up listening to two recordings of the 1933 version, Slatkin/Philharmonia and Haitink/LPO. Vaughan Williams made only very minor revisions to the first movement, but there was such a variety of interpretation! At the close Haitink is slow and majestic, Slatkin fast and frenetic, with Brabbins about half-way in between. I am left undecided which will be my 1933 reference. Second movement is tomorrow.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 09, 2022, 05:26:06 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 09, 2022, 05:16:00 AM
In preparation for my listening to the 1920 version I listened to the first movement with Brabbins along side a recording of the final 1933 version. Actually I ended up listening to two recordings of the 1933 version, Slatkin/Philharmonia and Haitink/LPO. Vaughan Williams made only very minor revisions to the first movement, but there was such a variety of interpretation! At the close Haitink is slow and majestic, Slatkin fast and frenetic, with Brabbins about half-way in between. I am left undecided which will be my 1933 reference. Second movement is tomorrow.

Can you toss in Owain Arwel Hughes to your assessment since you are looking for a 1933 reference?  I quite like that interpretation.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/512m644EHML.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 09, 2022, 05:53:14 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 09, 2022, 05:26:06 AM
Can you toss in Owain Arwel Hughes to your assessment since you are looking for a 1933 reference?  I quite like that interpretation.

Alas, I don't have that one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 09, 2022, 05:57:33 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 09, 2022, 05:16:00 AM
In preparation for my listening to the 1920 version I listened to the first movement with Brabbins along side a recording of the final 1933 version. Actually I ended up listening to two recordings of the 1933 version, Slatkin/Philharmonia and Haitink/LPO. Vaughan Williams made only very minor revisions to the first movement, but there was such a variety of interpretation! At the close Haitink is slow and majestic, Slatkin fast and frenetic, with Brabbins about half-way in between. I am left undecided which will be my 1933 reference. Second movement is tomorrow.
I think it's 1936 but I may be wrong. AFAIK the first movement was not changed. Will be interested to hear your conclusions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 09, 2022, 06:32:58 AM
Ah the joy (ease) of Wiki and cut and paste........

The main differences between the first and last versions may be summarised as follows:

First movement: One bar was cut from the 1914 version.
Slow movement: 52 bars of the 1914 score were cut in 1933/36, chiefly from the quiet coda.
Scherzo: At the end of the original is a dark andantino passage, of which no trace survives in the definitive version.
Finale: In the 1914 score, the central E minor section, familiar in the definitive text, is interrupted by an orchestral "cry of anguish" based on the opening theme, after which the allegro resumes. After the conclusion of the allegro section, the 1914 score has a long andantino section for strings and woodwinds later dismissed by Vaughan Williams as "a bad hymn tune". Finally, the original Epilogue extends to 109 bars.[11]
Below is a summary of the changes made between the original and the two published versions. It shows the number of bars in each movement and the total for the whole symphony:[9]

Version   Mvt I     Mvt II   Mvt III   Mvt IV   Epilogue   Total
1914           408     202            386            227             109           1322
1920           407    162            398           173              85           1225
1933           407    150            398           162              60           1177

The final version is more than twenty minutes shorter than the original, as some indicative timings show:

1914 version:

London Symphony Orchestra/Richard Hickox: 61:19 (I: 15:04; II: 16:16; III: 11:04; IV: 18:50)[8]
1920 revision:

London Symphony Orchestra/Dan Godfrey (rec 1925): 44:39 (I:13:37: II:12:17; III: 7:07; IV: 11:45) [Godfrey had already recorded the first movement (very heavily cut) and second movement (complete) in 1923, with the same forces. However, this later recording is still not a complete performance, since he now cut 23 bars from the Epilogue in order that it would fit on to 12 sides. The cut was from 9 bars after T until W. This is exactly what the composer would later do for the 1933 final version, leaving the suspicion that he may have been influenced by Godfrey's recording.][14][15]
Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra/Eugene Goossens (rec 1941): 38:45 (I:11:06: II:9:22; III: 5:09; IV: 13:15) [This performance makes no cuts, but does not play the repeat in the third movement.][16]
1933/36 revision:

Queen's Hall Orchestra/Sir Henry Wood (rec 1936): 37:09 (I:11:40: II:8:39; III: 5:21; IV: 10:49)[17]
London Philharmonic Orchestra/Sir Adrian Boult (rec 1971): 43:03 (I: 14:24; II: 9:32; III:7:07; IV:12:00)[18]
The reception accorded to the Chandos recording of the 1914 score persuaded Ursula Vaughan Williams to allow a live performance of the original version. In November 2003, Richard Hickox conducted the original 1914 score with the London Symphony Orchestra at the Barbican, in the first live performance of this version since 1918.[19] The Proms presented an additional live performance of the 1914 version on 19 July 2005, with Hickox conducting the BBC National Orchestra of Wales.[20]

In his liner note commentary to the Chandos recording of the original version, Michael Kennedy placed the status of the original score as subordinate to the final 1936 published version:[8]

There can be no question of the original version supplanting the revision. The 1936 score represents the symphony as Vaughan Williams wanted it to exist for posterity. The cuts and re-scorings were his own decisions, not forced on him, like Bruckner's, by well-meaning friends. Vaughan Williams would, and did, ask for advice, but never took it against his own inclinations.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 09, 2022, 07:59:38 AM
Hold on, I had the impression that the options for the 1920 version were Godfrey, Goosens, and Brabbins, but then I stumbled across Yates, a 2015 recording that pre-dates Brabbins by a few years.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/9111YpbYoEL._SL1500_.jpg)

And, I must say I'm intrigued by the two piano transcription.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 09, 2022, 12:53:05 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 08, 2022, 12:20:40 PM
I have been enjoying the two-piano version of the 1920 London Symphony. I have never listened to a piano reduction of an orchestral work before and was amazed by how much of the orchestral texture still remains. The other pieces on the disk are good too.

Brabbins' recording of the 1920 version is a favourite of mine, it seems much more folky than other versions I have heard.
I think that the two-piano A London Symphony is very successful. There is a companion CD of Walton's 1st Symphony which I didn't think worked so well, although still interesting to hear. I think, with A London Symphony, that I'm so familiar with the orchestral version that my mind 'fills in the blanks' in the piano reduction which, paradoxically, allows you to hear more detail with greater awareness of how the work is structured.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 09, 2022, 12:57:55 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 09, 2022, 07:59:38 AM
Hold on, I had the impression that the options for the 1920 version were Godfrey, Goosens, and Brabbins, but then I stumbled across Yates, a 2015 recording that pre-dates Brabbins by a few years.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/9111YpbYoEL._SL1500_.jpg)

And, I must say I'm intrigued by the two piano transcription.
Godfrey's version does not restore the cut to the last movement. I think that it's more truncated than any version - a big disappointment. Yates's recording was the first of the 1920 version since Goossens's wartime performance with the Cincinnati SO. I like the coupling of the Concerto for Two Pianos. I think that Bernard Herrmann may have recorded A London Symphony but I don't think that there was ever an LP or CD of the recording - if it exists at all. I'd love to hear it though.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 10, 2022, 06:52:03 AM
I have gotten to the second movement of A London Symphony and, listening to Brabbins after first listening to the Haitink recording, I did recognize the passage that had been removed in the final version. I agree with those who wish it had not been removed. However my main takeaway was that Haitink performed the "big tune" towards the end so much more beautifully than Brabbins. (Don't get me on the subject of Barbirolli again.) Maybe I should try Hickox again.

In any case, expect to listen to the third movement tomorrow.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on February 10, 2022, 08:57:35 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 10, 2022, 06:52:03 AM
I have gotten to the second movement of A London Symphony and, listening to Brabbins after first listening to the Haitink recording, I did recognize the passage that had been removed in the final version. I agree with those who wish it had not been removed. However my main takeaway was that Haitink performed the "big tune" towards the end so much more beautifully than Brabbins. (Don't get me on the subject of Barbirolli again.) Maybe I should try Hickox again.

In any case, expect to listen to the third movement tomorrow.

The Hickox is definitely my preferred cycle (well, nearly cycle), with the 1913 #2 as my high point.

*puts RVW back on the impending listening list*
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 10, 2022, 10:40:53 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 10, 2022, 08:57:35 AM
The Hickox is definitely my preferred cycle (well, nearly cycle), with the 1913 #2 as my high point.

*puts RVW back on the impending listening list*

I should try Hickox again. His Vaughan Williams cycle doesn't seem to generate much enthusiasm, but I am generally an admirer of Hickox in other recordings. I have his recording of A London Symphony, and several others.

I find I haven't ripped the Hickox RVW, except for the 2nd. Planning some rummaging through boxes to see if I can find the discs...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 11, 2022, 06:28:06 AM
Third movement of A London Symphony today, again listening first to the 1933/1936 version from Haitink, then 1920 version from Brabbins. I can't say I noticed a significant difference in interpretation; it seems self-evident how this music is mean't to be performed.

Again, I may very well have not noticed the difference without a comparison (I am familiar with this work, but I have not listened to it often enough that I anticipate every passage). But I did recognize what the Wikipedia article calls "a dark andantino passage." In the final version a loud statement of one of the main themes diminishes rather quickly to a very quiet close, but in the 1920 version there is this transitional passage where the loud statement of the theme sort of winds down with some wonderfully sensuous writing for low strings. I can't imagine why RVW would have removed this.

It is similar to the second movement, where the excised passage made the transition from a loud statement of the theme to a quiet ending more gradual. It seems to signal a more severe aesthetic from Vaughan Williams, during the period when he was working on the 4th symphony. Generally, I think it best for artists to let their earlier works stand, rather than remold their earlier work to the later style. Hindemith was another one to do this, in some instances.

If I were entrusted with editing Vaughan Williams' symphonies, I think I would apply an eraser to remove p's. Too many "pppp" passages, especially at the ends of movements. I grow fatigued of sitting there, asking myself, "is it over or are they still playing something too soft for me to hear?" Often it is the most attractive music that is played too softly for my tired ears.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2022, 06:59:17 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 11, 2022, 06:28:06 AM
Third movement of A London Symphony today, again listening first to the 1933/1936 version from Haitink, then 1920 version from Brabbins. I can't say I noticed a significant difference in interpretation; it seems self-evident how this music is mean't to be performed.

Again, I may very well have not noticed the difference without a comparison (I am familiar with this work, but I have not listened to it often enough that I anticipate every passage). But I did recognize what the Wikipedia article calls "a dark andantino passage." In the final version a loud statement of one of the main themes diminishes rather quickly to a very quiet close, but in the 1920 version there is this transitional passage where the loud statement of the theme sort of winds down with some wonderfully sensuous writing for low strings. I can't imagine why RVW would have removed this.

It is similar to the second movement, where the excised passage made the transition from a loud statement of the theme to a quiet ending more gradual. It seems to signal a more severe aesthetic from Vaughan Williams, during the period when he was working on the 4th symphony. Generally, I think it best for artists to let their earlier works stand, rather than remold their earlier work to the later style. Hindemith was another one to do this, in some instances.

If I were entrusted with editing Vaughan Williams' symphonies, I think I would apply an eraser to remove p's. Too many "pppp" passages, especially at the ends of movements. I grow fatigued of sitting there, asking myself, "is it over or are they still playing something too soft for me to hear?" Often it is the most attractive music that is played too softly for my tired ears.
I think that the final movement (especially towards the ending) is the most interesting point of comparison.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2022, 07:04:22 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 10, 2022, 08:57:35 AM
The Hickox is definitely my preferred cycle (well, nearly cycle), with the 1913 #2 as my high point.

*puts RVW back on the impending listening list*
Interesting. I heard Hickox deliver a VG performance of No.9 (a pity that it wasn't recorded) not long before his untimely death.
I like his unique Symphony No.2 (1913) but I also enjoyed No.4 and the additional works 'Pilgrim's Pavement' etc coupled with Symphony No.5.
I didn't like No.6 with the stupid photo of a baby on the front, but I've heard others enthuse about it, so I should listen again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on February 11, 2022, 12:15:56 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 11, 2022, 07:04:22 AM
Interesting. I heard Hickox deliver a VG performance of No.9 (a pity that it wasn't recorded) not long before his untimely death.
I like his unique Symphony No.2 (1913) but I also enjoyed No.4 and the additional works 'Pilgrim's Pavement' etc coupled with Symphony No.5.
I didn't like No.6 with the stupid photo of a baby on the front, but I've heard others enthuse about it, so I should listen again.

What a real shame it wasn't recorded.

I haven't seen the cover art on #6, thankfully 😁. The recording is good, though. The additional music in each of the couplings is great. I explained earlier to my wife that The Wasps is a B side, which was sufficiently amusing for me to almost cough my drink everywhere. I am easily amused, if a little lame.

I'm becoming quite a fan of the Kees Bakels cycle with the Bournemouth SO. Apart from the obvious shortcoming of the lack of the 1913.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2022, 12:37:47 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 11, 2022, 12:15:56 PM
What a real shame it wasn't recorded.

I haven't seen the cover art on #6, thankfully 😁. The recording is good, though. The additional music in each of the couplings is great. I explained earlier to my wife that The Wasps is a B side, which was sufficiently amusing for me to almost cough my drink everywhere. I am easily amused, if a little lame.
A clever play on words for those quick enough to spot it.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on February 12, 2022, 01:14:29 AM
My copy of the Hickox recording of No 6 (coupled with No 8 and the premiere recording of Nocturne ) has a nocturnal landscape on the cover.

I collected the Hickox recordings as they were issued; they got mixed reviews, some fairly tepid, but I enjoyed them all.

Edit: The only Hickox recording I have with a baby on the cover is Delius' A Mass of Life,
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 12, 2022, 01:16:20 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 11, 2022, 12:15:56 PM
What a real shame it wasn't recorded.

I haven't seen the cover art on #6, thankfully 😁. The recording is good, though. The additional music in each of the couplings is great. I explained earlier to my wife that The Wasps is a B side, which was sufficiently amusing for me to almost cough my drink everywhere. I am easily amused, if a little lame.

I'm becoming quite a fan of the Kees Bakels cycle with the Bournemouth SO. Apart from the obvious shortcoming of the lack of the 1913.

Quote from: vandermolen on February 11, 2022, 12:37:47 PM
A clever play on words for those quick enough to spot it.  ;D
Took a moment for your witty comment to kicking in Fox; to be fair though, it's 5 a.m. here!  ;D

And what cover were you referring to Jeffrey?  I'm only familiar with the Chandos cover--the SACD ones.  Mine, of the sixth, shows a misty picture of a pier leading out into the water.

PD

p.s.  no babies involved--unless they are hidden in the mist.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 12, 2022, 05:59:02 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 10, 2022, 08:57:35 AM
The Hickox is definitely my preferred cycle (well, nearly cycle), with the 1913 #2 as my high point.

*puts RVW back on the impending listening list*

Just an FYI, some of the symphonies not released in the Hickox Chandos cycle were conducted and recorded in concert.  I love his Symphony No. 9 for example, but can't seem to find it at the moment, but they are out there.  You might consider those concert performances as supplements to completing the cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 12, 2022, 06:01:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 11, 2022, 07:04:22 AM
Interesting. I heard Hickox deliver a VG performance of No.9 (a pity that it wasn't recorded) not long before his untimely death.
I like his unique Symphony No.2 (1913) but I also enjoyed No.4 and the additional works 'Pilgrim's Pavement' etc coupled with Symphony No.5.
I didn't like No.6 with the stupid photo of a baby on the front, but I've heard others enthuse about it, so I should listen again.

I think that's the same one I just mentioned.  It is available, just not commercially and I agree it was a VG performance and you know I'm picky about No. 9. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 12, 2022, 07:15:32 AM
Quote from: Biffo on February 12, 2022, 01:14:29 AM
My copy of the Hickox recording of No 6 (coupled with No 8 and the premiere recording of Nocturne ) has a nocturnal landscape on the cover.

I collected the Hickox recordings as they were issued; they got mixed reviews, some fairly tepid, but I enjoyed them all.

Edit: The only Hickox recording I have with a baby on the cover is Delius' A Mass of Life,

You are absolutely right about the covers - RVW 6&8 was always a "night scene" image and the original Delius Mass of Life was a rather annoyed looking baby which was latterly changed for something more mundance.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-NKexM_Sm-RCgCJ9gk_q5xJMMfNTZDXOJOA&usqp=CAU)(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyMjc5Ni4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMjYyMDZ9)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTs1lIyWg6JEJgZgrchd_T-sMAu4JVZ_ieHZg&usqp=CAU)


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Iota on February 12, 2022, 08:19:28 AM
Is there some kind of optical illusion I and vandermolen are missing? I see a sleeping baby very clearly on the cover of the Hickox's No.6 on Chandos, in Roasted Swan's post before mine. Or perhaps two covers were released?

While he's being mentioned, I'll say that I'm not sure I've ever heard a Hickox recording of British music, that I didn't like. The time may come of course, but thus far I've always found his approach a sensitive/illuminating/enjoyable one. Though  admittedly I know only a fraction of the pieces and recordings that most on this thread seem to, so have had less opportunity to come across a bad apple. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on February 12, 2022, 09:36:02 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 12, 2022, 05:59:02 AM
Just an FYI, some of the symphonies not released in the Hickox Chandos cycle were conducted and recorded in concert.  I love his Symphony No. 9 for example, but can't seem to find it at the moment, but they are out there.  You might consider those concert performances as supplements to completing the cycle.

Thank you, relm1 - I will keep a look out for them!

As far as my humour, PD and Jeffrey, I'm afraid that I find myself far more amusing than my wife did  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 12, 2022, 11:53:45 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 12, 2022, 07:15:32 AM
You are absolutely right about the covers - RVW 6&8 was always a "night scene" image and the original Delius Mass of Life was a rather annoyed looking baby which was latterly changed for something more mundance.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-NKexM_Sm-RCgCJ9gk_q5xJMMfNTZDXOJOA&usqp=CAU)(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyMjc5Ni4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMjYyMDZ9)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTs1lIyWg6JEJgZgrchd_T-sMAu4JVZ_ieHZg&usqp=CAU)
There's definitely a baby on that VW cover image!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 12, 2022, 11:56:11 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 12, 2022, 09:36:02 AM
Thank you, relm1 - I will keep a look out for them!

As far as my humour, PD and Jeffrey, I'm afraid that I find myself far more amusing than my wife did  :)

My wife often says: 'You think that you're such a wit don't you?' after I've repeated the same joke for the 15th time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 12, 2022, 12:44:05 PM
Quote from: Iota on February 12, 2022, 08:19:28 AM
Is there some kind of optical illusion I and vandermolen are missing? I see a sleeping baby very clearly on the cover of the Hickox's No.6 on Chandos, in Roasted Swan's post before mine. Or perhaps two covers were released?

While he's being mentioned, I'll say that I'm not sure I've ever heard a Hickox recording of British music, that I didn't like. The time may come of course, but thus far I've always found his approach a sensitive/illuminating/enjoyable one. Though  admittedly I know only a fraction of the pieces and recordings that most on this thread seem to, so have had less opportunity to come across a bad apple.
Um, I was at least one of the other ones who said that all I saw was a pier (thinking that it was foggy, but just nighttime or?).  Are we talking about the same cover?  This is the one that's on my hybrid SACD version:

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH10103.jpg)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on February 12, 2022, 01:05:36 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 12, 2022, 12:44:05 PM
Um, I was at least one of the other ones who said that all I saw was a pier (thinking that it was foggy, but just nighttime or?).  Are we talking about the same cover?  This is the one that's on my hybrid SACD version:

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH10103.jpg)

PD

Yep  Definitely a depressing baby face, with nose and lips visible on the pier.

Yuk.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on February 12, 2022, 01:07:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 12, 2022, 11:56:11 AM
My wife often says: 'You think that your such a wit don't you?' after I've repeated the same joke for the 15th time.

Hehe. My wife again reminds me that it wasn't funny yesterday, either.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Iota on February 12, 2022, 01:16:44 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 12, 2022, 12:44:05 PM
Um, I was at least one of the other ones who said that all I saw was a pier (thinking that it was foggy, but just nighttime or?).  Are we talking about the same cover?  This is the one that's on my hybrid SACD version:

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH10103.jpg)

PD

Yes indeed, that's the same cover, and I see a sleeping baby on it, with closed eyelids aligning perfectly with the horizon.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 12, 2022, 01:28:23 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 12, 2022, 01:05:36 PM
Yep  Definitely a depressing baby face, with nose and lips visible on the pier.

Yuk.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 12, 2022, 01:29:34 PM
Quote from: Iota on February 12, 2022, 08:19:28 AM
Is there some kind of optical illusion I and vandermolen are missing? I see a sleeping baby very clearly on the cover of the Hickox's No.6 on Chandos, in Roasted Swan's post before mine. Or perhaps two covers were released?

While he's being mentioned, I'll say that I'm not sure I've ever heard a Hickox recording of British music, that I didn't like. The time may come of course, but thus far I've always found his approach a sensitive/illuminating/enjoyable one. Though  admittedly I know only a fraction of the pieces and recordings that most on this thread seem to, so have had less opportunity to come across a bad apple.

Boy, you two, I'm certainly not seeing any baby!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 12, 2022, 01:35:22 PM
Quote from: Iota on February 12, 2022, 08:19:28 AM
Is there some kind of optical illusion I and vandermolen are missing? I see a sleeping baby very clearly on the cover of the Hickox's No.6 on Chandos, in Roasted Swan's post before mine. Or perhaps two covers were released?

While he's being mentioned, I'll say that I'm not sure I've ever heard a Hickox recording of British music, that I didn't like. The time may come of course, but thus far I've always found his approach a sensitive/illuminating/enjoyable one. Though  admittedly I know only a fraction of the pieces and recordings that most on this thread seem to, so have had less opportunity to come across a bad apple.

Ha!  Proves how (un)carefully I looked at the cover of the Hickox 6&8.  Never noticed the "dreamer" before.  Not sure I'd be much good as a witness anytime......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 12, 2022, 01:57:47 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 12, 2022, 11:56:11 AM
My wife often says: 'You think that your such a wit don't you?' after I've repeated the same joke for the 15th time.

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 12, 2022, 02:09:39 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2022, 11:49:37 PM
Just wanted to say how much I have been enjoying this new release - a piano duet version of the 1920 edition of A London Symphony. I'm really glad that it features the 1920 version, which retains the intensely poetic final sections which the composer later (and mistakenly IMO) excised. Also the piano and organ version of Finzi's beautiful 'Eclogue' is well worth hearing. I've played this CD several times already:
(//)

Listening now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on February 12, 2022, 05:05:06 PM
Took me a long time to see it, but yeah, the baby is there. Very odd design choice...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 12, 2022, 11:01:17 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 12, 2022, 01:07:34 PM
Hehe. My wife again reminds me that it wasn't funny yesterday, either.
OT
My nephew's wife tells us that she can't wait for their children to reach adolescence so that they realise that their dad is not nearly as funny as he thinks he is.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on February 13, 2022, 02:21:16 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 12, 2022, 01:35:22 PM
Ha!  Proves how (un)carefully I looked at the cover of the Hickox 6&8.  Never noticed the "dreamer" before.  Not sure I'd be much good as a witness anytime......

I can now see the baby in the background. I missed it completely when I first looked at my copy of the CD. At a first glance I thought there was the back of a polar bear's head at the end of the pier but that didn't make sense. The face shows up more clearly (but not very) on the back cover.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 13, 2022, 04:54:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2022, 11:49:37 PM
Just wanted to say how much I have been enjoying this new release - a piano duet version of the 1920 edition of A London Symphony. I'm really glad that it features the 1920 version, which retains the intensely poetic final sections which the composer later (and mistakenly IMO) excised. Also the piano and organ version of Finzi's beautiful 'Eclogue' is well worth hearing. I've played this CD several times already:
(//)

Just completed listening to this new disc.  Beautifully performed/engineered/presented in typical Albion Records' top-notch manner.  The more I hear the 1920 version the more it impresses me - somehow the structure balances better with the extended finale/epilogue.  Very well played here BUT the plainness of the 2 piano adaption misses out so much of the textural beauty of the orchestral version.  Also, not sure that the actual arrangement (NOT the performance) is that sophisticated - functional rather than revelatory.  Like you I thought Eclogue a complete success both as performance and arrangement....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2022, 05:06:06 AM
Quote from: Biffo on February 13, 2022, 02:21:16 AM
I can now see the baby in the background. I missed it completely when I first looked at my copy of the CD. At a first glance I thought there was the back of a polar bear's head at the end of the pier but that didn't make sense. The face shows up more clearly (but not very) on the back cover.
It was the nose in the middle of the image which was the give-away for me  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2022, 05:20:07 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 13, 2022, 04:54:42 AM
Just completed listening to this new disc.  Beautifully performed/engineered/presented in typical Albion Records' top-notch manner.  The more I hear the 1920 version the more it impresses me - somehow the structure balances better with the extended finale/epilogue.  Very well played here BUT the plainness of the 2 piano adaption misses out so much of the textural beauty of the orchestral version.  Also, not sure that the actual arrangement (NOT the performance) is that sophisticated - functional rather than revelatory.  Like you I thought Eclogue a complete success both as performance and arrangement....
I'm delighted that you enjoyed it as well. The CD gave me much more pleasure than expected, especially because when I ordered it I had assumed that it would be the 1936 edition and not the 1920 one, which I much prefer. The Finzi was indeed a bonus - one of my 'Discs of the Year' I expect.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on February 13, 2022, 05:35:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 13, 2022, 05:06:06 AM
It was the nose in the middle of the image which was the give-away for me  ;D

And the hor-eye-zon.

*Bad-um, tish*
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2022, 09:12:10 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 13, 2022, 05:35:55 AM
And the hor-eye-zon.

*Bad-um, tish*

Another clever play on words, for those quick enough to spot it!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 17, 2022, 05:56:18 AM
I listened to A London Symphony, Finale, in two versions, Haitink 1933/6 and Brabbins 1920, this time Brabbins first then Haitink. A bad idea, harder to perceive the differences that way, listening to what is missing in Haitink. I'll have to repeat the exercise. I was impressed with the quality of Brabbins' performance of the finale. Aside from passages removed in the revision, the Wikipedia page refers to "changes in scoring." The Brabbins recording struck me as a bit more opulent and impressionistic. I couldn't say whether that reflects difference in the score, or Brabbins' handling of orchestral balances, compared with Haitink.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 17, 2022, 11:41:30 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 17, 2022, 05:56:18 AM
I listened to A London Symphony, Finale, in two versions, Haitink 1933/6 and Brabbins 1920, this time Brabbins first then Haitink. A bad idea, harder to perceive the differences that way, listening to what is missing in Haitink. I'll have to repeat the exercise. I was impressed with the quality of Brabbins' performance of the finale. Aside from passages removed in the revision, the Wikipedia page refers to "changes in scoring." The Brabbins recording struck me as a bit more opulent and impressionistic. I couldn't say whether that reflects difference in the score, or Brabbins' handling of orchestral balances, compared with Haitink.
The Brabbins recording of the 1920 version is my favourite recording. Yes, try listening the other way round and the differences should be clearer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 18, 2022, 04:15:43 AM
Listened again to the Finale of A London Symphony, first Haitink 1933/6 then Brabbins 1920. I confirm that I enjoy Brabbins' performance of the main section more than Haitink, because of a more opulent presentation (due to performance or rescoring, I don't know). I can't say I can put my finger on the restored passage in the epilog. Part of the problem is once I get to the Westminster chimes played on harp, which I can never quite hear, my mind starts wandering. I checked the time of various landmarks and found that Haitink takes about 3:30 to get from the beginning of the epilog (alternative note figure) to the solo violin entrance and Brabbins takes 5:07, so there is an extra minute and a half of music there. At this point it is an obsession and I won't rest until identify it. I will have to set up two players and listen to both in 10 second increments until I nail down the exact moment the extra bit is inserted. :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 19, 2022, 11:52:17 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 18, 2022, 04:15:43 AM
Listened again to the Finale of A London Symphony, first Haitink 1933/6 then Brabbins 1920. I confirm that I enjoy Brabbins' performance of the main section more than Haitink, because of a more opulent presentation (due to performance or rescoring, I don't know). I can't say I can put my finger on the restored passage in the epilog. Part of the problem is once I get to the Westminster chimes played on harp, which I can never quite hear, my mind starts wandering. I checked the time of various landmarks and found that Haitink takes about 3:30 to get from the beginning of the epilog (alternative note figure) to the solo violin entrance and Brabbins takes 5:07, so there is an extra minute and a half of music there. At this point it is an obsession and I won't rest until identify it. I will have to set up two players and listen to both in 10 second increments until I nail down the exact moment the extra bit is inserted. :(
I've had both relevant recording playing just now.
I reckon that the extended extra section starts at around 11.48 into the last movement of the Brabbins recording and the cut is from about 12.31 in the last movement of the Haitink recording. I am acutely aware of that 'missing section' from the 1936 version. Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 19, 2022, 07:38:08 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 19, 2022, 11:52:17 AM
I've had both relevant recording playing just now.
I reckon that the extended extra section starts at around 11.48 into the last movement of the Brabbins recording and the cut is from about 12.31 in the last movement of the Haitink recording. I am acutely aware of that 'missing section' from the 1936 version. Hope this helps!

Thanks so much for taking the time and effort! The missing sections from the second and third movements stood out for me, but the finale has been elusive.

(I hope I never find out that Vaughan Williams revised any of his other symphonies.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 19, 2022, 11:20:47 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 19, 2022, 07:38:08 PM
Thanks so much for taking the time and effort! The missing sections from the second and third movements stood out for me, but the finale has been elusive.

(I hope I never find out that Vaughan Williams revised any of his other symphonies.)

He did replace the scherzo of the 6th Symphony.... but not until after it had been published and  Boult recorded it here.....

(https://img.discogs.com/a7LnMTKfXasFUhpipjVPRGQFNSU=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(webp):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-13075450-1547615860-6773.jpeg.jpg)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 19, 2022, 11:45:35 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 19, 2022, 11:20:47 PM
He did replace the scherzo of the 6th Symphony.... but not until after it had been published and  Boult recorded it here.....

(https://img.discogs.com/a7LnMTKfXasFUhpipjVPRGQFNSU=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(webp):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-13075450-1547615860-6773.jpeg.jpg)
Yes indeed and I think that the Dutton CD allows you to hear both versions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on February 20, 2022, 02:35:49 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 19, 2022, 07:38:08 PM
Thanks so much for taking the time and effort! The missing sections from the second and third movements stood out for me, but the finale has been elusive.

(I hope I never find out that Vaughan Williams revised any of his other symphonies.)

In 1951 RVW revised all of the existing six symphonies. In his biography of Sir John Barbirolli, Michael Kennedy says the revisions were 'fairly extensive' without saying what they were. It was possibly around this time he admitted that the London symphony was 'beyond mending'. He sent copies of the scores to Barbirolli asking him to make any changes he thought fit: JB confined himself to technical matters.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 20, 2022, 02:38:17 AM
Quote from: Biffo on February 20, 2022, 02:35:49 AM
In 1951 RVW revised all of the existing six symphonies. In his biography of Sir John Barbirolli, Michael Kennedy says the revisions were 'fairly extensive' without saying what they were. It was possibly around this time he admitted that the London symphony was 'beyond mending'. He sent copies of the scores to Barbirolli asking him to make any changes he thought fit: JB confined himself to technical matters.
A pity that Barbirolli didn't suggest restoring the 1920 version of A London Symphony!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on February 20, 2022, 03:09:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 20, 2022, 02:38:17 AM
A pity that Barbirolli didn't suggest restoring the 1920 version of A London Symphony!

I doubt if JB ever saw the 1920 score.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 20, 2022, 06:24:55 AM
Quote from: Biffo on February 20, 2022, 03:09:33 AM
I doubt if JB ever saw the 1920 score.
I bet you are right, but he could have heard it as Bernard Herrmann and Boult did.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 20, 2022, 07:30:44 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 19, 2022, 11:45:35 PM
Yes indeed and I think that the Dutton CD allows you to hear both versions.

EMI released the 1949 Boult 6th along with the original Scherzo on the HMV Treasury series, Jeffrey. The revised Scherzo is dated 15th February 1950 in the notes.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 20, 2022, 11:15:06 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 20, 2022, 02:38:17 AM
A pity that Barbirolli didn't suggest restoring the 1920 version of A London Symphony!

I think Vaughan Williams would have changed Barbirolli's nickname from "Glorious John" to "Vainglorious John." :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2022, 11:55:25 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 20, 2022, 11:15:06 AM
I think Vaughan Williams would have changed Barbirolli's nickname from "Glorious John" to "Vainglorious John." :)

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 20, 2022, 12:54:40 PM
Quote from: Irons on February 20, 2022, 07:30:44 AM
EMI released the 1949 Boult 6th along with the original Scherzo on the HMV Treasury series, Jeffrey. The revised Scherzo is dated 15th February 1950 in the notes.
Thanks Lol. Yes, I recall collecting that fine LP.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 21, 2022, 12:20:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 20, 2022, 12:54:40 PM
Thanks Lol. Yes, I recall collecting that fine LP.

I was pleasantly surprised to find from the same LP in my view the finest "The Lark Ascending" with Jean Pougnet from 1953 on a recently purchased RVW twofer CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 21, 2022, 12:50:31 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 21, 2022, 12:20:11 AM
I was pleasantly surprised to find from the same LP in my view the finest "The Lark Ascending" with Jean Pougnet from 1953 on a recently purchased RVW twofer CD.
Totally agree about Lark Ascending Lol. That's a fabulous 2 CD set, not least for including Boult's 'Dona Nobis Pacem' and one of my rare favourite, the 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' . I once wrote to the pianist Peter Katin about it and he told me that the piano part was difficult to play.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 21, 2022, 07:28:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 21, 2022, 12:50:31 AM
Totally agree about Lark Ascending Lol. That's a fabulous 2 CD set, not least for including Boult's 'Dona Nobis Pacem' and one of my rare favourite, the 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' . I once wrote to the pianist Peter Katin about it and he told me that the piano part was difficult to play.

Blimey Jeffrey, I wrote to Peter Katin too! Through his website which included his email address. I thanked him for a Liszt recording which I enjoyed very much. He wrote a very nice note back and funnily enough said exactly the same "difficult to play". Lovely fellow, who did not get recognition due. Sorry to hear of his passing although he did reach a good age. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 21, 2022, 07:46:09 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 21, 2022, 07:28:27 AM
Blimey Jeffrey, I wrote to Peter Katin too! Through his website which included his email address. I thanked him for a Liszt recording which I enjoyed very much. He wrote a very nice note back and funnily enough said exactly the same "difficult to play". Lovely fellow, who did not get recognition due. Sorry to hear of his passing although he did reach a good age.
Interesting! Yes, I was sad to hear of his passing as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 22, 2022, 10:58:52 AM
Currently enjoying an old LP of Vaughan Williams' "Songs of Travel", etc. with John Shirley Quirk (on mono Saga).  Cleaned up pretty well.  Listening to the other songs (mostly about the sea) on Side Two (see recent listening).  With Viola Tunnard, piano.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 22, 2022, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 22, 2022, 10:58:52 AM
Currently enjoying an old LP of Vaughan Williams' "Songs of Travel", etc. with John Shirley Quirk (on mono Saga).  Cleaned up pretty well.  Listening to the other songs (mostly about the sea) on Side Two (see recent listening).  With Viola Tunnard, piano.

PD
That's a very nice CD PD.

Two interesting concerts coming up at the Barbican in London:

https://www.barbican.org.uk/whats-on/2022/event/city-of-london-choirrpo-vaughan-williams-150th-anniversary

https://www.barbican.org.uk/whats-on/2022/event/bbc-sobrabbins-scott-of-the-antarctic
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 23, 2022, 03:36:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 22, 2022, 10:22:13 PM
That's a very nice CD PD.

Two interesting concerts coming up at the Barbican in London:

https://www.barbican.org.uk/whats-on/2022/event/city-of-london-choirrpo-vaughan-williams-150th-anniversary

https://www.barbican.org.uk/whats-on/2022/event/bbc-sobrabbins-scott-of-the-antarctic
I suspect that you will be attending a bunch of concerts this year Jeffrey (Circumstances permitting)?  :)  And, yes, my 12-inch "CD" sounded pretty nice.   ;)

Need to give the stereo one a clean today.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 23, 2022, 04:50:17 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 23, 2022, 03:36:08 AM
I suspect that you will be attending a bunch of concerts this year Jeffrey (Circumstances permitting)?  :)  And, yes, my 12-inch "CD" sounded pretty nice.   ;)

Need to give the stereo one a clean today.

PD

Oh right PD!
I had the Songs of Travel on an old Saga LP as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 23, 2022, 06:13:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 23, 2022, 04:50:17 AM
Oh right PD!
I had the Songs of Travel on an old Saga LP as well.
I gave the stereo one a look at and a clean this morning.  It was in much better condition than I had remembered (Yeah!).  I'm guessing that it's a much later pressing as the vinyl is much thinner.

Which CD version do you have of those songs Jeffrey?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 23, 2022, 10:43:29 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 23, 2022, 06:13:11 AM
I gave the stereo one a look at and a clean this morning.  It was in much better condition than I had remembered (Yeah!).  I'm guessing that it's a much later pressing as the vinyl is much thinner.

Which CD version do you have of those songs Jeffrey?

PD

Several versions PD including this one which I enjoyed very much:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 02, 2022, 10:51:54 PM
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Mar/VWilliams-london-ALBCD046.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 03, 2022, 05:58:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 02, 2022, 10:51:54 PM
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Mar/VWilliams-london-ALBCD046.htm

Nice!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 03, 2022, 11:58:07 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 03, 2022, 05:58:58 AM
Nice!

Thought you might be interested Karl  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 05, 2022, 10:50:09 PM
I'm enjoying this new release, featuring organ transcriptions of Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus, Symphony No.5 and The Lark Ascending (with violin):
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 06, 2022, 04:09:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 05, 2022, 10:50:09 PM
I'm enjoying this new release, featuring organ transcriptions of Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus, Symphony No.5 and The Lark Ascending (with violin):
(//)
Organ and violin for The Lark?!   :-\

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 06, 2022, 05:17:29 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 06, 2022, 04:09:05 AM
Organ and violin for The Lark?!   :-\

PD

Yes indeed - the liner explains that there is quite a history/precedent for playing the piece this way with several famous violinists including the likes of Albert Sammons performing it during RVW's lifetime.  The perfroamnce here is technically good but the violinist lacks the fantasy of some players and the organ feels too big as an accompanist.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 06, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 06, 2022, 05:17:29 AM
Yes indeed - the liner explains that there is quite a history/precedent for playing the piece this way with several famous violinists including the likes of Albert Sammons performing it during RVW's lifetime.  The perfroamnce here is technically good but the violinist lacks the fantasy of some players and the organ feels too big as an accompanist.....

Balancing an organ and violin must be the stuff of nightmares for recording engineers. An interesting release just the same.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 07, 2022, 03:31:58 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 06, 2022, 05:17:29 AM
Yes indeed - the liner explains that there is quite a history/precedent for playing the piece this way with several famous violinists including the likes of Albert Sammons performing it during RVW's lifetime.  The perfroamnce here is technically good but the violinist lacks the fantasy of some players and the organ feels too big as an accompanist.....
Interesting re the history!  I hadn't know that!  I'll try and find a sample or upload on youtube of one.

Quote from: Irons on March 06, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
Balancing an organ and violin must be the stuff of nightmares for recording engineers. An interesting release just the same.
Good point Irons!  When I read Jeffrey's posting, I envisioned that the violinist would have to be a fair ways away from the organist in order not to be blown out of the room!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 07, 2022, 05:17:11 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 06, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
Balancing an organ and violin must be the stuff of nightmares for recording engineers. An interesting release just the same.

In contrary, organs can blend nicely and play softly and gently depending on which manuals they have.  That "grand" organ sound is when all the manuals are played including the octave ones (8' and 16').  There are manuals for flute tones that are quite gentle.  Notice how this blends beautifully with the strings and solo oboe.

https://youtu.be/S2PqWSfo-9w?t=386 (https://youtu.be/S2PqWSfo-9w?t=386)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: bhodges on March 07, 2022, 09:31:05 AM
On Saturday, March 12, 6:00-8:00pm (EST), Christopher Warren-Green and the Charlotte Symphony Orchestra will celebrate the group's 90th anniversary with an all-English program, ending with Vaughan Williams' Dona Nobis Pacem. Looks to be free to listen in. (It's audio only.)

https://www.wdav.org/programs/charlotte-symphony-classical-series-live-broadcast/vaughan-williams-dona-nobis-pacem

--Bruce
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 08, 2022, 02:44:20 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 07, 2022, 05:17:11 AM
In contrary, organs can blend nicely and play softly and gently depending on which manuals they have.  That "grand" organ sound is when all the manuals are played including the octave ones (8' and 16').  There are manuals for flute tones that are quite gentle.  Notice how this blends beautifully with the strings and solo oboe.

https://youtu.be/S2PqWSfo-9w?t=386 (https://youtu.be/S2PqWSfo-9w?t=386)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 08, 2022, 05:21:58 AM
Quote from: Brewski on March 07, 2022, 09:31:05 AM
On Saturday, March 12, 6:00-8:00pm (EST), Christopher Warren-Green and the Charlotte Symphony Orchestra will celebrate the group's 90th anniversary with an all-English program, ending with Vaughan Williams' Dona Nobis Pacem. Looks to be free to listen in. (It's audio only.)

https://www.wdav.org/programs/charlotte-symphony-classical-series-live-broadcast/vaughan-williams-dona-nobis-pacem

--Bruce

Can someone please record this broadcast?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 12, 2022, 01:28:55 AM
A download from the latest CRQ Editions catalogue caught my eye.  CRQ 498.

Vaughan Williams from America: 4th Symphony live from Carnegie Hall 1969 with Previn conducting Houston SO & 5th with Slatkin conducting Chicago SO, in Chicago 1988.

CRQ Editions releases for Spring 2022
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 12, 2022, 11:15:19 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 12, 2022, 01:28:55 AM
A download from the latest CRQ Editions catalogue caught my eye.  CRQ 498.

Vaughan Williams from America: 4th Symphony live from Carnegie Hall 1969 with Previn conducting Houston SO & 5th with Slatkin conducting Chicago SO, in Chicago 1988.

CRQ Editions releases for Spring 2022

That does sound toothsome!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 13, 2022, 12:17:08 AM
Last night I played for a choral society in Stratford upon Avon in Holy Trinity Church - where Shakespeare is buried right next to the River Avon.  Not just a pretty inspiring location but a really lovely programme too.  The solists were uniformly excellent but the baritone especially fine singing Finzi's "Let us Garlands bring".  The main works in the programme were RVW's "Serenade to Music" and his "Dona Nobis Pacem".  The latter often mentioned here and rightly considered one of his finest if not the finest choral work.  A great piece on any occasion but in the current climate the message of the work resonated with extraordinary power.  A genuine privilge to be part of the performance.  Actually its a really tricky piece to play on a single afternoon read through - RVW's harmonies and writing are not obvious or predictable so the actual performance was not nearly as polished as I'd have liked but sometimes the greater message is what's important.......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 13, 2022, 12:49:38 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 12, 2022, 11:15:19 AM
That does sound toothsome!

Being decidedly old school not into downloads and streaming but tempted especially after listening to  sound clips supplied by CRQ.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2022, 12:09:03 AM
Had quite a surprise when I saw the front cover of the 'i' Newspaper this morning:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 16, 2022, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 16, 2022, 12:09:03 AM
Had quite a surprise when I saw the front cover of the 'i' Newspaper this morning:
(//)

why sneer about ANY composer let alone RVW!?!?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2022, 02:24:52 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 16, 2022, 12:36:35 AM
why sneer about ANY composer let alone RVW!?!?
Good point RS. I managed to get the last copy in the village shop - an interesting article:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on March 16, 2022, 02:37:55 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 16, 2022, 12:36:35 AM
why sneer about ANY composer let alone RVW!?!?

+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 16, 2022, 07:20:04 PM
The John Bridcut BBC documentary titled The Passions of Vaughan Williams has been uploaded on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/v/XBbqKaV4sdQ

To those who haven't seen it, it's certainly worth your time. Much, much better, IMHO, than the Palmer documentary O, Thou Transcendent. I bought this documentary on DVD (along with the Britten, Delius and Elgar ones) and have enjoyed it. I could certainly watch it again, which I think I will tomorrow night.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 16, 2022, 07:23:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 16, 2022, 12:09:03 AM
Had quite a surprise when I saw the front cover of the 'i' Newspaper this morning:
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=84455;image)

Nice, Jeffrey! Although I don't care for the "Don't sneer" blurb. The man was a brilliant composer. Why the hell would I sneer?!?!?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2022, 11:26:14 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 16, 2022, 07:23:17 PM
Nice, Jeffrey! Although I don't care for the "Don't sneer" blurb. The man was a brilliant composer. Why the hell would I sneer?!?!?
Yes, I agree - it was a foolish comment - maybe due to the populist nature of works like 'The Lark Ascending' I guess.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 17, 2022, 06:32:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 16, 2022, 11:26:14 PM
Yes, I agree - it was a foolish comment - maybe due to the populist nature of works like 'The Lark Ascending' I guess.

Yes, that could be it. I guess it's the only work the "average Joe" would know. Kind of like Holst and The Planets, although there are plenty of serious classical listeners who don't know his oeuvre well at all.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 17, 2022, 02:44:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 17, 2022, 06:32:36 AM
Yes, that could be it. I guess it's the only work the "average Joe" would know. Kind of like Holst and The Planets, although there are plenty of serious classical listeners who don't know his oeuvre well at all.
Yes, that's quite true John.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on March 21, 2022, 04:17:40 AM
Listened to Vaughan Williams' Job, a Masque for Dancing, in the recording by Adrian Boult and the London Symphony. This is the 1970 recording, although I also have the 1946 recording by Boult in the Vaughan Williams/Boult set from Warner/EMI.

Marvelous music, although if I didn't know I would never have thought this was a ballet. It seems to me like a series of tone pictures based on illustrations (the Robert Blake illustrations of Job) with some musical themes and motifs that link the piece together. Very fine performance under the direction of Boult, in pleasant analog sound.

I find it surprising that there haven't been more recordings of this music. I find I also have the Andrew Davis recording on Teldec, and there is also a Hickox recording, which is long out of print.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on March 21, 2022, 05:11:06 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 21, 2022, 04:17:40 AM
Listened to Vaughan Williams' Job, a Masque for Dancing, in the recording by Adrian Boult and the London Symphony. This is the 1970 recording, although I also have the 1946 recording by Boult in the Vaughan Williams/Boult set from Warner/EMI.

Marvelous music, although if I didn't know I would never have thought this was a ballet. It seems to me like a series of tone pictures based on illustrations (the Robert Blake illustrations of Job) with some musical themes and motifs that link the piece together. Very fine performance under the direction of Boult, in pleasant analog sound.

I find it surprising that there haven't been more recordings of this music. I find I also have the Andrew Davis recording on Teldec, and there is also a Hickox recording, which is long out of print.

I've also liked the David Lloyd Jones version with the English Northern Philharmonia, on Naxos :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 21, 2022, 09:35:23 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 21, 2022, 04:17:40 AM
Listened to Vaughan Williams' Job, a Masque for Dancing, in the recording by Adrian Boult and the London Symphony. This is the 1970 recording, although I also have the 1946 recording by Boult in the Vaughan Williams/Boult set from Warner/EMI.

Marvelous music, although if I didn't know I would never have thought this was a ballet. It seems to me like a series of tone pictures based on illustrations (the Robert Blake illustrations of Job) with some musical themes and motifs that link the piece together. Very fine performance under the direction of Boult, in pleasant analog sound.

I find it surprising that there haven't been more recordings of this music. I find I also have the Andrew Davis recording on Teldec, and there is also a Hickox recording, which is long out of print.

Old Bobby Blake was never quite as appreciated as his brother William - the same was true of Ronald (McDonald) Vaughan Williams
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on March 21, 2022, 10:03:41 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 21, 2022, 09:35:23 AM
Old Bobby Blake was never quite as appreciated as his brother William - the same was true of Ronald (McDonald) Vaughan Williams

:laugh:

I'll have to look up this Ronald McDonald Vaughan Williams. Was he the one that invented the special sauce?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on March 25, 2022, 06:48:03 AM
Having cracked open the Boult/RVW Box I decided to listen to a symphony. I picked No 8.

I see it as a dramatic departure for Vaughan Williams. I would say in each of the earlier symphonies Vaughan Williams "wears his heart on his sleeve," The 2nd is an affectionate portrait of London, the third a somber yet luminous tribute to the suffering of war, the forth and sixth agitated music, the fifth a spiritual meditation, the seventh a tribute to the heroism of the Scott expedition. In the eight it strikes me he is playing with sound, inventing themes, combining them, presenting them in different contexts, harmonies, orchestrations, etc. It is a wonderful pageant of music.

Boult is very fine. I had the EMI symphony cycle when it first came out on CD and eventually sold it because I was dissatisfied with the audio - it seemed too strident. The complete set indicates the symphonies have not been remastered, but I find the audio satisfactory now.  Perhaps a bit of an exaggerated mid-treble in the strings, but the winds sound very satisfying. I'm either getting older or wiser.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51ZdMFOd5JL.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 25, 2022, 07:43:12 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 13, 2022, 12:17:08 AM
Last night I played for a choral society in Stratford upon Avon in Holy Trinity Church - where Shakespeare is buried right next to the River Avon.  Not just a pretty inspiring location but a really lovely programme too.  The solists were uniformly excellent but the baritone especially fine singing Finzi's "Let us Garlands bring".  The main works in the programme were RVW's "Serenade to Music" and his "Dona Nobis Pacem".  The latter often mentioned here and rightly considered one of his finest if not the finest choral work.  A great piece on any occasion but in the current climate the message of the work resonated with extraordinary power.  A genuine privilge to be part of the performance.  Actually its a really tricky piece to play on a single afternoon read through - RVW's harmonies and writing are not obvious or predictable so the actual performance was not nearly as polished as I'd have liked but sometimes the greater message is what's important.......
Just spotted this - what a great experience.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 25, 2022, 07:46:10 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 25, 2022, 06:48:03 AM
Having cracked open the Boult/RVW Box I decided to listen to a symphony. I picked No 8.

I see it as a dramatic departure for Vaughan Williams. I would say in each of the earlier symphonies Vaughan Williams "wears his heart on his sleeve," The 2nd is an affectionate portrait of London, the third a somber yet luminous tribute to the suffering of war, the forth and sixth agitated music, the fifth a spiritual meditation, the seventh a tribute to the heroism of the Scott expedition. In the eight it strikes me he is playing with sound, inventing themes, combining them, presenting them in different contexts, harmonies, orchestrations, etc. It is a wonderful pageant of music.

Boult is very fine. I had the EMI symphony cycle when it first came out on CD and eventually sold it because I was dissatisfied with the audio - it seemed too strident. The complete set indicates the symphonies have not been remastered, but I find the audio satisfactory now.  Perhaps a bit of an exaggerated mid-treble in the strings, but the winds sound very satisfying. I'm either getting older or wiser.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51ZdMFOd5JL.jpg)
I think that it's a fine set which gives me a lot of pleasure.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 25, 2022, 08:16:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 25, 2022, 07:46:10 AM
I think that it's a fine set which gives me a lot of pleasure.

Has this set been remastered? I collected the symphonies individually (more or less) over the years and I don't think the sound quality is always ideal.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on March 25, 2022, 08:38:03 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 25, 2022, 08:16:31 AM
Has this set been remastered? I collected the symphonies individually (more or less) over the years and I don't think the sound quality is always ideal.

In the booklet a copyright of 1986 or 1987 is given for the remastering of the symphonies. That sounds like the date of the first CD release. I think the remastering is not as good as it could be, but the basic quality of the original analog recordings still manifests itself. It really is a shame that they have not remastered these very significant recordings after almost 40 years. Maybe the tapes are lost or have deteriorated.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 26, 2022, 02:53:47 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 25, 2022, 08:38:03 AM
In the booklet a copyright of 1986 or 1987 is given for the remastering of the symphonies. That sounds like the date of the first CD release. I think the remastering is not as good as it could be, but the basic quality of the original analog recordings still manifests itself. It really is a shame that they have not remastered these very significant recordings after almost 40 years. Maybe the tapes are lost or have deteriorated.

Thanks for your reply. I haven't checked all the individual discs but the one containing Nos 3 & 5 - the two symphonies I am most interested in says 'remastered 1991'. The sound isn't bad but possibly could be improved after 30 years.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on March 26, 2022, 05:38:06 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 26, 2022, 02:53:47 AM
Thanks for your reply. I haven't checked all the individual discs but the one containing Nos 3 & 5 - the two symphonies I am most interested in says 'remastered 1991'. The sound isn't bad but possibly could be improved after 30 years.

You're right, I didn't look carefully. In the complete Boult set 3 and 5 do have copyright of 1991 for the remaster, although 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 are either 1986 or 1987.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 26, 2022, 06:20:42 AM
It doesn't matter about the dates of the remaster in the Boult set. They sound good and are completely acceptable. A phenomenal set and a must-own for anyone who loves RVW's music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on March 26, 2022, 06:49:19 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 22, 2022, 10:58:52 AM
Currently enjoying an old LP of Vaughan Williams' "Songs of Travel", etc. with John Shirley Quirk (on mono Saga).  Cleaned up pretty well.  Listening to the other songs (mostly about the sea) on Side Two (see recent listening).  With Viola Tunnard, piano.

PD

That specific recording inspired me to major in vocal performance, and become an operatic baritone.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 26, 2022, 07:50:46 AM
Quote from: LKB on March 26, 2022, 06:49:19 AM
That specific recording inspired me to major in vocal performance, and become an operatic baritone.  8)
Cool!  8) :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 26, 2022, 03:11:03 PM
Pristine Audio are releasing the Boult LPO Decca series of symphonies in a remastered edition (properly packaged with notes I think).

BBC Music Magazine has a VW special in their May edition and the accompanying CD is of symphonies 4 and 6 with 'In the Fen Country' conducted by John Wilson.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 27, 2022, 12:41:51 AM
Pristine Audio are remastering the Boult Decca/Everest cycle of symphonies. For once these (CD) are nicely packaged (limited edition) with notes. A Sea Symphony has just been released:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 27, 2022, 04:22:50 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 26, 2022, 05:38:06 AM
You're right, I didn't look carefully. In the complete Boult set 3 and 5 do have copyright of 1991 for the remaster, although 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 are either 1986 or 1987.

The original CD coupling of 3 and 5 was afflicted with a low-level hum, which some reviewers did comment on.  So EMI revisited that coupling specifically, which explains the later date compared with the rest.  But these early CD transfers generally do not quite measure up to the original analogue releases on vinyl, which were very highly regrded in their day, with Boult's final recording of Job being hailed as demonstration-quality.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 28, 2022, 07:12:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 26, 2022, 03:11:03 PM
Pristine Audio are releasing the Boult LPO Decca series of symphonies in a remastered edition (properly packaged with notes I think).

BBC Music Magazine has a VW special in their May edition and the accompanying CD is of symphonies 4 and 6 with 'In the Fen Country' conducted by John Wilson.

I'm in, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 29, 2022, 12:49:58 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 28, 2022, 07:12:47 AM
I'm in, Jeffrey.
I thought that you might be Lol!   ;D

I've been pestering Alto to release a new VW CD in time for the 150th Anniversary in October, insisting of course, that I write the notes myself!  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 29, 2022, 01:18:22 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 27, 2022, 04:22:50 AM
The original CD coupling of 3 and 5 was afflicted with a low-level hum, which some reviewers did comment on.  So EMI revisited that coupling specifically, which explains the later date compared with the rest.  But these early CD transfers generally do not quite measure up to the original analogue releases on vinyl, which were very highly regarded in their day, with Boult's final recording of Job being hailed as demonstration-quality.
Yes, that ASD LP of 'Job' was my first encounter with the work on disc, having heard Boult conduct it live on VW's 100th birthday. It remains, arguably, the finest recording on disc, although I like Barry Wordsworth's recording as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on March 29, 2022, 07:31:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 29, 2022, 01:18:22 AM
Yes, that ASD LP of 'Job' was my first encounter with the work on disc, having heard Boult conduct it live on VW's 100th birthday. It remains, arguably, the finest recording on disc, although I like Barry Wordsworth's recording as well.

I'd be curious to hear Boult's Decca recording of the work (mono, from the mid 50's I think). I haven't come across it on CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 29, 2022, 01:53:11 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 29, 2022, 07:31:03 AM
I'd be curious to hear Boult's Decca recording of the work (mono, from the mid 50's I think). I haven't come across it on CD.
Like all of Boult's four commercial recordings of the work (EMI/Decca/Everest/EMI ASD) it is terrific in all respects and very moving (after all, it was dedicated to Boult). It is about the only Australian Eloquence CD (unavailable in the UK) that I have been able to track down (ordered from Australia I think):
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 29, 2022, 10:50:37 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 29, 2022, 01:53:11 PM
Like all of Boult's four commercial recordings of the work (EMI/Decca/Everest/EMI ASD) it is terrific in all respects and very moving (after all, it was dedicated to Boult). It is about the only Australian Eloquence CD (unavailable in the UK) that I have been able to track down (ordered from Australia I think):


The Boult/Decca recording was the 1st LP of Vaughan Williams' music I ever owned in its Decca Eclipse incarnation.....

(https://img.discogs.com/0Z5OkstE9gtU2HcGS8S2LUZNeWY=/fit-in/600x596/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7695154-1446973060-7129.jpeg.jpg)

I was given it by the conductor of our youth orchestra as a thankyou for doing a magic show for an old people's home he helped at (conjuring was my other obsession alongside music).  I remember two things about this LP; a) that the cover picture impressed me - no idea where it is and b) that the conductor told me it was one of RVW's very greatest works and that he hoped I would grow to love it.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on March 29, 2022, 11:27:39 PM
The striking cover of the original was of it's period.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 29, 2022, 11:44:13 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 29, 2022, 10:50:37 PM
The Boult/Decca recording was the 1st LP of Vaughan Williams' music I ever owned in its Decca Eclipse incarnation.....

(https://img.discogs.com/0Z5OkstE9gtU2HcGS8S2LUZNeWY=/fit-in/600x596/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7695154-1446973060-7129.jpeg.jpg)

I was given it by the conductor of our youth orchestra as a thankyou for doing a magic show for an old people's home he helped at (conjuring was my other obsession alongside music).  I remember two things about this LP; a) that the cover picture impressed me - no idea where it is and b) that the conductor told me it was one of RVW's very greatest works and that he hoped I would grow to love it.....
Interesting about the conjuring! I used to like doing magic tricks as a boy (although, unlike yourself, I have never delivered a public performance) and there was a shop near Marble Arch which specialised in them (I remember owning a trick card pack where every other card was the Eight of Clubs!) I made so many great discoveries on Decca Eclipse - Rawsthorne's Second Piano Concerto and Barber' Cello Concerto, coupled together, for example and, not least, this one (purchased aged 16 or 17 - it had more impact on me than any other recording ever):

PS the locations of cover photos for Decca Eclipse LPs (usually National Trust locations) were always printed on the back of the LP sleeve - this craggy image is of Blea Tarn, Cumbria - coincidentally the same location features on the front of the Naxos recording of Vaughan William's 6th Symphony.

(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 30, 2022, 09:00:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 29, 2022, 11:44:13 PM
Interesting about the conjuring! I used to like doing magic tricks as a boy (although, unlike yourself, I have never delivered a public performance) and there was a shop near Marble Arch which specialised in them (I remember owning a trick card pack where every other card was the Eight of Clubs!) I made so many great discoveries on Decca Eclipse - Rawsthorne's Second Piano Concerto and Barber' Cello Concerto, coupled together, for example and, not least, this one (purchased aged 16 or 17 - it had more impact on me than any other recording ever):

PS the locations of cover photos for Decca Eclipse LPs (usually National Trust locations) were always printed on the back of the LP sleeve - this craggy image is of Blea Tarn, Cumbria - coincidentally the same location features on the front of the Naxos recording of Vaughan William's 6th Symphony.

(//)

At the risk of this becoming a nostagia/magic thread - the two London shops I used to make pilgrimage to were Davenports literally opposite the British Museum and the basement of Hamleys.  The great thing about both places was that the salespeople all demonstrated - every trick always looked amazing (as performed by them) so you bought it, went home and it was never quite as good when you did it....... (practice is key!).  Showing my magic/nerd side - the deck of cards you describe is called a Svengali deck - its based on the principle that the alternate/same cards are all slightly shorter than the mixed/longer cards... so the effect is the "chosen" (shorter) card can move through the deck from top to bottom or if you riffle it face up they "appear" to have all become the same card.  Great deck!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2022, 02:17:24 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 30, 2022, 09:00:21 AM
At the risk of this becoming a nostagia/magic thread - the two London shops I used to make pilgrimage to were Davenports literally opposite the British Museum and the basement of Hamleys.  The great thing about both places was that the salespeople all demonstrated - every trick always looked amazing (as performed by them) so you bought it, went home and it was never quite as good when you did it....... (practice is key!).  Showing my magic/nerd side - the deck of cards you describe is called a Svengali deck - its based on the principle that the alternate/same cards are all slightly shorter than the mixed/longer cards... so the effect is the "chosen" (shorter) card can move through the deck from top to bottom or if you riffle it face up they "appear" to have all become the same card.  Great deck!
Completely OT
Excellent! I think that the nostalgia/magic thread is a great idea. The shop I was referring to was in an arcade of shops and the kindly man in charge demonstrated them to me. I spent hours there. I remember a box which had a secret mirror in, so that you could place objects in the box and they would apparently disappear. I was forced to go to Marble Arch for 'Bar mitzvah Classes' (I hated them, couldn't learn Hebrew and eventually got my cleverer older brother to write by bar-mitzvah portion out in English phonetics, which I smuggled past the rabbi - good practice for years of smuggling LPs/CDs past my parents and my wife). However as the synagogue was in Marble Arch I always found myself in the magic shop afterwards. You are absolutely right about the trick card pack - I seem to remember being quite good at it - now that I have the name I may try to get another pack to try out on my daughter. I especially liked tricks of a morbid/violent type, which appealed to my tastes. I remember a small guillotine in which you could pretend to chop off your finger. My father taught me another morbid trick - you cut a hole in the bottom of an old elastoplast tin and then use insulation tape to line the hole so that you didn't cut your finger. You then place your finger through the hole resting it on a layer of cotton wool covered in red paint. I could then present this to an elderly aunt, by removing the top part of the tin to reveal an apparently disembodied finger covered in blood.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2022, 06:30:45 AM
Thought I should get the thread back on the rails. This looks like an interesting new release but I'm not sure that I need another recording of On Wenlock Edge:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 31, 2022, 06:41:15 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 31, 2022, 06:30:45 AM
Thought I should get the thread back on the rails. This looks like an interesting new release but I'm not sure that I need another recording of On Wenlock Edge:
(//)

Looks tempting - I only have one recording of The House of Life and that is rather elderly - Anthony Rolfe Johnson (1974) - but then I don't listen to it very often.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 31, 2022, 06:49:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 31, 2022, 06:30:45 AM
Thought I should get the thread back on the rails. This looks like an interesting new release but I'm not sure that I need another recording of On Wenlock Edge:
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=85190;image)

It looks like a nice recording, Jeffrey, but, like you, I don't need another recording of On Wenlock Edge. The only RVW releases I'm anticipating are from Brabbins' ongoing symphony cycle, which seems to have come to a halt at the moment. :-\
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2022, 07:23:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 31, 2022, 06:49:42 AM
It looks like a nice recording, Jeffrey, but, like you, I don't need another recording of On Wenlock Edge. The only RVW releases I'm anticipating are from Brabbins' ongoing symphony cycle, which seems to have come to a halt at the moment. :-\
Yes, probably due to Covid John. I'm much preferring his cycle to the ones conducted by Manze, Elder (apart from 'A Pastoral Symphony') and the incomplete Norrington releases.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on March 31, 2022, 07:43:15 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 31, 2022, 06:41:15 AM
Looks tempting - I only have one recording of The House of Life and that is rather elderly - Anthony Rolfe Johnson (1974) - but then I don't listen to it very often.

This is a fine recording of the work, which I've enjoyed for many years now, featuring Geoffrey Parsons and Thomas Allen:

https://www.amazon.com/Idle-Hill-Summer-Williams-Butterworth/dp/B00004SLKI
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on March 31, 2022, 08:48:27 AM
Quote from: LKB on March 31, 2022, 07:43:15 AM
This is a fine recording of the work, which I've enjoyed for many years now, featuring Geoffrey Parsons and Thomas Allen:

https://www.amazon.com/Idle-Hill-Summer-Williams-Butterworth/dp/B00004SLKI

Thomas Allen is one of my favourite singers, I will have to double-check what RVW songs I have by him. That looks a nice disc but it would be pricey for me to import.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 31, 2022, 11:57:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 31, 2022, 06:30:45 AM
Thought I should get the thread back on the rails. This looks like an interesting new release but I'm not sure that I need another recording of On Wenlock Edge:


As a matter of idle curiosity, Jeffrey: what's the current count? 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2022, 01:11:38 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 31, 2022, 11:57:18 AM
As a matter of idle curiosity, Jeffrey: what's the current count? 8)
Hmmm...let me see Karl:

Haitink
Duke Quartet
Langridge/Shelley
Fitzwilliam SQ
Music Group pf London/Partridge (favourite)
Padmore/Schubert Ensemble
Steinberg
Richard Lewis (I was at this performance - VW Centenary Concert 1972)
Rattle
Bostridge/Haitink
Padmore/Britten SQ
Maran
Measham

Some orchestral, some chamber groups.

Maybe some more  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2022, 01:12:48 PM
Quote from: Biffo on March 31, 2022, 06:41:15 AM
Looks tempting - I only have one recording of The House of Life and that is rather elderly - Anthony Rolfe Johnson (1974) - but then I don't listen to it very often.
My thoughts exactly  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on March 31, 2022, 01:27:11 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 31, 2022, 07:23:10 AM
Yes, probably due to Covid John. I'm much preferring his cycle to the ones conducted by Manze, Elder (apart from 'A Pastoral Symphony') and the incomplete Norrington releases.

Indeed. You and I are in agreement, especially in regards to the Manze cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on April 01, 2022, 12:19:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 31, 2022, 01:11:38 PM
Hmmm...let me see Karl:

Haitink
Duke Quartet
Langridge/Shelley
Fitzwilliam SQ
Music Group pf London/Partridge (favourite)
Padmore/Schubert Ensemble
Steinberg
Richard Lewis (I was at this performance - VW Centenary Concert 1972)
Rattle
Bostridge/Haitink
Padmore/Britten SQ
Maran
Measham

Some orchestral, some chamber groups.

Maybe some more  ::)

I have the EMI/Partridge release, coupled with Warlock's The Curlew and a few other songs by RVW. Tbh, it always seemed sufficient, and I've never sought out another recording...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 01, 2022, 12:31:02 AM
Quote from: LKB on April 01, 2022, 12:19:33 AM
I have the EMI/Partridge release, coupled with Warlock's The Curlew and a few other songs by RVW. Tbh, it always seemed sufficient, and I've never sought out another recording...

I have quite a few versions - not to rival Vandermolen mind! - but to be honest, I think the Partridge is magnificent and the equal of any other version...........
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 01, 2022, 12:38:27 AM
Quote from: LKB on April 01, 2022, 12:19:33 AM
I have the EMI/Partridge release, coupled with Warlock's The Curlew and a few other songs by RVW. Tbh, it always seemed sufficient, and I've never sought out another recording...
I think that's the best version anyway! I love the coupling with 'The Curlew'. I quite like Rattle's orchestral version of On Wenlock Edge as well (he hardly recorded any VW).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on April 12, 2022, 01:42:08 AM
The BBC Philharmonic Orchestra concert I attended on Saturday, is being broadcast tonight on BBC Radio 3 at 7.30pm, UK time.

RVW #2 and #7 with John Wilson conducting. I thought it was excellent. Link below

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001623c?at_campaign=64&at_custom3=%40BBCPhilharmonic&at_medium=custom7&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom4=F3F17438-BA3D-11EC-AAA3-7DAF96E8478F (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001623c?at_campaign=64&at_custom3=%40BBCPhilharmonic&at_medium=custom7&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom4=F3F17438-BA3D-11EC-AAA3-7DAF96E8478F)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 12, 2022, 07:00:15 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on April 12, 2022, 01:42:08 AM
The BBC Philharmonic Orchestra concert I attended on Saturday, is being broadcast tonight on BBC Radio 3 at 7.30pm, UK time.

RVW #2 and #7 with John Wilson conducting. I thought it was excellent. Link below

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001623c?at_campaign=64&at_custom3=%40BBCPhilharmonic&at_medium=custom7&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom4=F3F17438-BA3D-11EC-AAA3-7DAF96E8478F (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001623c?at_campaign=64&at_custom3=%40BBCPhilharmonic&at_medium=custom7&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom4=F3F17438-BA3D-11EC-AAA3-7DAF96E8478F)

It seems that Chandos has a lot of faith in John Wilson's conducting. For me, the label won't ever have the likes of Hickox, Handley, Thomson or Järvi again. Gardner is pretty good, though. I've been hugely impressed with his Schoenberg recordings for example.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on April 12, 2022, 08:29:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 12, 2022, 07:00:15 AM
It seems that Chandos has a lot of faith in John Wilson's conducting. For me, the label won't ever have the likes of Hickox, Handley, Thomson or Järvi again. Gardner is pretty good, though. I've been hugely impressed with his Schoenberg recordings for example.

I had never seen him in action before Saturday and he was completely new to me. He seems a very understated conductor. I know theatricality and energetic flourishes don't necessarily mean quality, but his leading had little obvious personality. Having said that, he clearly led the orchestra to produce a really enjoyable performance.

I guess hearing it broadcast this evening will give me a handle on whether hearing it live made it feel better than it was 🙂
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 12, 2022, 09:38:31 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on April 12, 2022, 08:29:13 AM
I had never seen him in action before Saturday and he was completely new to me. He seems a very understated conductor. I know theatricality and energetic flourishes don't necessarily mean quality, but his leading had little obvious personality. Having said that, he clearly led the orchestra to produce a really enjoyable performance.

I guess hearing it broadcast this evening will give me a handle on whether hearing it live made it feel better than it was 🙂

I've got Wilson's recordings of Korngold and some others and have been disappointed. It sounds like your experience with him is more positive than my own.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2022, 11:02:32 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on April 12, 2022, 01:42:08 AM
The BBC Philharmonic Orchestra concert I attended on Saturday, is being broadcast tonight on BBC Radio 3 at 7.30pm, UK time.

RVW #2 and #7 with John Wilson conducting. I thought it was excellent. Link below

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001623c?at_campaign=64&at_custom3=%40BBCPhilharmonic&at_medium=custom7&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom4=F3F17438-BA3D-11EC-AAA3-7DAF96E8478F (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001623c?at_campaign=64&at_custom3=%40BBCPhilharmonic&at_medium=custom7&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom4=F3F17438-BA3D-11EC-AAA3-7DAF96E8478F)

Thanks! Listening e'en now!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
The May BBC Music Magazine is a VW 150th Birthday special. I've been enjoying the cover CD today featuring the ubiquitous John Wilson conducting symphonies 4 and 6 as well as In the Fen Country (BBC Philharmonic Orchestra). I didn't think that the performance of the 4th Symphony was anything special (I much prefer Berglund's recording) but the stand-out item for me was the 6th Symphony, which was given a fine performance although the last movement seemed too loud for me and therefore a bit lacking in spectral eeriness. The pacing was good, however - well worth having:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on April 20, 2022, 12:31:14 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 20, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
The May BBC Music Magazine is a VW 150th Birthday special. I've been enjoying the cover CD today featuring the ubiquitous John Wilson conducting symphonies 4 and 6 as well as In the Fen Country (BBC Philharmonic Orchestra). I didn't think that the performance of the 4th Symphony was anything special (I much prefer Berglund's recording) but the stand-out item for me was the 6th Symphony, which was given a fine performance although the last movement seemed too loud for me and therefore a bit lacking in spectral eeriness. The pacing was good, however - well worth having:
(//)

I do wish these recordings were available as d/ls!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on April 20, 2022, 01:03:29 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 20, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
The May BBC Music Magazine is a VW 150th Birthday special. I've been enjoying the cover CD today featuring the ubiquitous John Wilson conducting symphonies 4 and 6 as well as In the Fen Country (BBC Philharmonic Orchestra). I didn't think that the performance of the 4th Symphony was anything special (I much prefer Berglund's recording) but the stand-out item for me was the 6th Symphony, which was given a fine performance although the last movement seemed too loud for me and therefore a bit lacking in spectral eeriness. The pacing was good, however - well worth having:
(//)

I'm willing to sacrifice spectral eeriness to actually hear the music, for once! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2022, 09:42:27 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 20, 2022, 01:03:29 PM
I'm willing to sacrifice spectral eeriness to actually hear the music, for once! :)
;D

A good point because when I first encountered the work on a Decca Eclipse LP (LPO, Boult) I thought that there was something wrong with the LP as the sound was so recessed in the last movement. I guess that every other performance of the last movement has sounded artificially loud after that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on April 21, 2022, 12:12:31 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 20, 2022, 01:03:29 PM
I'm willing to sacrifice spectral eeriness to actually hear the music, for once! :)

I second that, it tends to be studio recordings that are absurdly quiet, sometimes to the point of inaudibility. Live performances are more likely to be at a natural level and far more detail can be heard.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 21, 2022, 01:12:57 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 20, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
The May BBC Music Magazine is a VW 150th Birthday special. I've been enjoying the cover CD today featuring the ubiquitous John Wilson conducting symphonies 4 and 6 as well as In the Fen Country (BBC Philharmonic Orchestra). I didn't think that the performance of the 4th Symphony was anything special (I much prefer Berglund's recording) but the stand-out item for me was the 6th Symphony, which was given a fine performance although the last movement seemed too loud for me and therefore a bit lacking in spectral eeriness. The pacing was good, however - well worth having:
(//)

I enjoyed the CD very much playing the whole thing (how could you not!). My heart sunk a bit as in my view the 4th & 6th do not make a good coupling but no worries as placing "In the Fen Country" between them a smart move. I actually preferred the performance of the 4th, not the last word in dynamic explosiveness as indeed is not the 6th, but I was able to appreciate other virtues which have passed me by in a symphony that with the exception of the 1st I have spent the least time with. After hearing this recording, the 4th is a greater symphony then I gave it credit for.
Not quite so convinced by the 6th with my mind wandering to Boult, Previn and Berglund but they are very special and the sound world John Wilson produces is unarguably that of RVW.   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 11:01:32 AM
Quote from: Irons on April 21, 2022, 01:12:57 PM
I enjoyed the CD very much playing the whole thing (how could you not!). My heart sunk a bit as in my view the 4th & 6th do not make a good coupling but no worries as placing "In the Fen Country" between them a smart move. I actually preferred the performance of the 4th, not the last word in dynamic explosiveness as indeed is not the 6th, but I was able to appreciate other virtues which have passed me by in a symphony that with the exception of the 1st I have spent the least time with. After hearing this recording, the 4th is a greater symphony then I gave it credit for.
Not quite so convinced by the 6th with my mind wandering to Boult, Previn and Berglund but they are very special and the sound world John Wilson produces is unarguably that of RVW.
I will listen to No.4 again Lol. While recognising its greatness it has lost some of its appeal to me compared with No.6, which I prefer. I think that placing 'In the Fen Country' between the two turbulent symphonies was a clever move and I think that it's a fine performance.
I think that my rank order of VW symphonies would now be:
No 6
No 9
No 2
No 1
No 8
No 7
No 5
No 4
No 3
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on April 22, 2022, 11:49:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 11:01:32 AM
I will listen to No.4 again Lol. While recognising its greatness it has lost some of its appeal to me compared with No.6, which I prefer. I think that placing 'In the Fen Country' between the two turbulent symphonies was a clever move and I think that it's a fine performance.
I think that my rank order of VW symphonies would now be:
No 6
No 9
No 2
No 1
No 8
No 7
No 5
No 4
No 3

No 3 is last?!?!  :o

This is my ranking:

seven way tie for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9
7
1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 12:00:33 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 22, 2022, 11:49:05 AM
No 3 is last?!?!  :o

This is my ranking:

seven way tie for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9
7
1
Interesting! I didn't like No. 1 'A Sea Symphony' for decades and decades until I heard Haitink's studio recording which was a 'Damascus' moment for me. Michael Kennedy reckoned that No.3 'A Pastoral symphony' was the greatest of all (but Kennedy also argued that there was no 'conscious leave-taking' in No.9 - which I totally disagree with). I was put off No.3 by hearing a terrible live performance of it by Norman Del Mar (since then I've always thought, sacrilegious though this might seem, that it works better on record than in live concert - maybe something to do with the more intimate nature of the work).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 12:54:47 PM
I just listened to a fascinating piece of archive material which was broadcast during the interval of the concert in Manchester last night (21/04). It features Vaughan Williams, in his characteristic upper class accent talking about Gustav Holst and (after Holst's 'Moorside Suite') the composer Herbert Howells talking about Holst. At one time Holst, VW and Howells taught at St Paul's Girl's School in Hammersmith, London. Towards the end of his life Holst turned up unexpectedly one Saturday night, at Howells's front door seemingly very ill. Howells invited Holst to join him and his wife for supper but Holst refused and said that he'd go up to Howells's study to look at manuscripts. By chance there was a Prom being broadcast that night featuring 'The Planets'. Howells invited Holst to come downstairs to listen to the broadcast of 'The Planets' but Holst said that he did not want to hear it! However he eventually came down to listen and when the audience spontaneously started singing the big tune in the middle of 'Jupiter' ('I Vow to thee My Country') Howells noticed that tears were streaming down Holst's face. At the end Holst left them saying that he didn't suppose that they would see him much more and he died shortly afterwards. The extract is after the broadcast of Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 9, about 37 minutes into the broadcast and the Howells reminiscences are played after Holst's 'Moorside Suite':
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00169jf
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on April 22, 2022, 02:14:10 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 12:54:47 PM
I just listened to a fascinating piece of archive material which was broadcast during the interval of the concert in Manchester last night (21/04). It features Vaughan Williams, in his characteristic upper class accent talking about Gustav Holst and (after Holst's 'Moorside Suite') the composer Herbert Howells talking about Holst. At one time Holst, VW and Howells taught at St Paul's Girl's School in Hammersmith, London. Towards the end of his life Holst turned up unexpectedly one Saturday night, at Howells's front door seemingly very ill. Howells invited Holst to join him and his wife for supper but Holst refused and said that he'd go up to Howells's study to look at manuscripts. By chance there was a Prom being broadcast that night featuring 'The Planets'. Howells invited Holst to come downstairs to listen to the broadcast of 'The Planets' but Holst said that he did not want to hear it! However he eventually came down to listen and when the audience spontaneously started singing the big tune in the middle of 'Jupiter' ('I Vow to thee My Country') Howells noticed that tears were streaming down Holst's face. At the end Holst left them saying that he didn't suppose that they would see him much more and he died shortly afterwards. The extract is after the broadcast of Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 9, about 37 minutes into the broadcast and the Howells reminiscences are played after Holst's 'Moorside Suite':
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00169jf

This is a great anecdote. I will be replaying this in the next day or so myself. It was such a shame to have missed it in person, but looking forward to catching it up.

PS... 3 is last???? I will need to ponder my own ordering...

;D :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on April 22, 2022, 04:29:46 PM
What Vandermolen doesn't care for 3 or 4!?!

4 and 6 are my top tier, and I consider all the others tied (yes even the Sea Symphony!! I love it!  and yes even the 7th it is so atmospheric)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 07:34:13 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 22, 2022, 04:29:46 PM
What Vandermolen doesn't care for 3 or 4!?!

4 and 6 are my top tier, and I consider all the others tied (yes even the Sea Symphony!! I love it!  and yes even the 7th it is so atmospheric)
No No - I love all the VW symphonies David - it's just that I (currently) prefer some to others.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on April 22, 2022, 07:41:19 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 12:00:33 PM
Interesting! I didn't like No. 1 'A Sea Symphony' for decades and decades until I heard Haitink's studio recording which was a 'Damascus' moment for me. Michael Kennedy reckoned that No.3 'A Pastoral symphony' was the greatest of all (but Kennedy also argued that there was no 'conscious leave-taking' in No.9 - which I totally disagree with). I was put off No.3 by hearing a terrible live performance of it by Norman Del Mar (since then I've always thought, sacrilegious though this might seem, that it works better on record than in live concert - maybe something to do with the more intimate nature of the work).

I must confess, I have never heard a single note of A Sea Symphony. I do not enjoy chorus and orchestra music past Bach (or maybe Mozart and some small scale neoclassical works) and particularly find a Baritone (or Bass) operatic voice unpleasant. The seventh symphony is demoted due to the use of a wind machine. I formerly considered the third symphony to be a weak link, until hearing Andre Previn's luminous recording (on RCA).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 22, 2022, 07:42:59 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 22, 2022, 04:29:46 PM
What Vandermolen doesn't care for 3 or 4!?!

4 and 6 are my top tier, and I consider all the others tied (yes even the Sea Symphony!! I love it!  and yes even the 7th it is so atmospheric)

I personally don't love them all or, at least, love them equally. The 4th still gives me a bit of a problem as I much prefer the menacing 6th. A Sea Symphony is a fine work, but I seldom find myself wanting to actually listen to it. I LOVE A Pastoral Symphony and Symphony No. 8. Sinfonia Antartica isn't too shabby. A London Symphony is quite fine, but I like the 1920 version the best I think. Symphony No. 9 doesn't strike me as being too interesting, although it has been some time since I've heard it. Symphony No. 5 is my favorite symphony from RVW. It's absolute magic from beginning to end. It takes me places. Such a spiritual and uplifting work, but it has plenty of atmosphere and there are moments where there's teeth being shown like in the more hectic, in-your-face moments in the first and second movements.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 07:45:24 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 22, 2022, 07:41:19 PM
I must confess, I have never heard a single note of A Sea Symphony. I do not enjoy chorus and orchestra music past Bach (or maybe Mozart and some small scale neoclassical works) and particularly find a Baritone (or Bass) operatic voice unpleasant. The seventh symphony is demoted due to the use of a wind machine. I formerly considered the third symphony to be a weak link, until hearing Andre Previn's luminous recording (on RCA).
Previn's No.3 is the best IMO (as is his No.Eight) and 2 and 5 are very strong performances. 'Luminous' is a good description of Previn's recording of No.3 - I must listen to it again soon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 22, 2022, 07:48:58 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 07:45:24 PM
Previn's No.3 is the best IMO (as is his No.8) and 2 and 5 are very strong performances. 'Luminous' is a good description of Previn's recording of No.3 - I must listen to it again soon.

YES! Previn's Pastoral is my favorite and his 5th is also my favorite. Damn, now I want to listen to both of these performances! ;) I agree with you on his performances of the 8th, but 2nd and 7th as well. He's less successful in the 4th and 6th. I don't recall his 1st at the moment. I'll have to give this one another listen as it's been far too long. I also liked his 9th, but will freely admit its one of my least favorite symphonies from this cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 07:50:47 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2022, 07:42:59 PM
I personally don't love them all or, at least, love them equally. The 4th still gives me a bit of a problem as I much prefer the menacing 6th. A Sea Symphony is a fine work, but I seldom find myself wanting to actually listen to it. I LOVE A Pastoral Symphony and Symphony No. 8. Sinfonia Antartica isn't too shabby. A London Symphony is quite fine, but I like the 1920 version the best I think. Symphony No. 9 doesn't strike me as being too interesting, although it has been some time since I've heard it. Symphony No. 5 is my favorite symphony from RVW. It's absolute magic from beginning to end. It takes me places. Such a spiritual and uplifting work, but it has plenty of atmosphere and there are moments where there's teeth being shown like in the more hectic, in-your-face moments in the first and second movements.
Definitely with you over the 1920 version of a London Symphony John. VW should have stopped revising it after that! I'm looking forward to the new ICA CD release featuring symphonies 5 and 6 (Boult, BBC SO).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 22, 2022, 07:51:59 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 07:50:47 PM
Definitely with you over the 1920 version of a London Symphony John. VW should have stopped revising it after that! I'm looking forward to the new ICA CD release featuring symphonies 5 and 6 (Boult, BBC SO).

Ah yes, I'll be picking this one up as well since I think so highly of both of these symphonies and Boult's way with RVW in general.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 22, 2022, 09:47:01 PM
Hmm,

My order is: 5, 3, 9, 2, 6, 8, 4, 7, 1

Reminds me of the Havergal Brian thread c.2012 when everyone was quoting their order (a few more permutations though!).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on April 23, 2022, 01:21:45 AM
I can't remember my most recent order, but without relistening, it is probably.. 

2, 3, 5, 6, 4, 8, 7, 9... and the other one with the singing. I would replace this with Job, if I were in charge.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on April 23, 2022, 05:40:51 AM
I haven't listened to Previn's recordings in a long while, I should change that.  I kind of just stuck with Boult.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 23, 2022, 05:41:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2022, 07:48:58 PM
YES! Previn's Pastoral is my favorite and his 5th is also my favorite. Damn, now I want to listen to both of these performances! ;) I agree with you on his performances of the 8th, but 2nd and 7th as well. He's less successful in the 4th and 6th. I don't recall his 1st at the moment. I'll have to give this one another listen as it's been far too long. I also liked his 9th, but will freely admit its one of my least favorite symphonies from this cycle.

Previn's No. 9 is also your favorite....or should be.  He really lets the tension build so organically and their is a real sense of inner turmoil and transcendence, for me at least.  I also like Boult's No. 9 and Hickox's. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 23, 2022, 06:03:49 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 23, 2022, 05:41:40 AM
Previn's No. 9 is also your favorite....or should be.  He really lets the tension build so organically and their is a real sense of inner turmoil and transcendence, for me at least.  I also like Boult's No. 9 and Hickox's.

I think my general problem is with the work itself, but I'll go back and give the Previn a listen. I don't like Hickox's RVW on Chandos much. I do like his earlier EMI recordings. His Job is still a long-standing favorite of mine.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 23, 2022, 06:12:12 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 22, 2022, 07:41:19 PM
I must confess, I have never heard a single note of A Sea Symphony. I do not enjoy chorus and orchestra music past Bach (or maybe Mozart and some small scale neoclassical works) and particularly find a Baritone (or Bass) operatic voice unpleasant. The seventh symphony is demoted due to the use of a wind machine. I formerly considered the third symphony to be a weak link, until hearing Andre Previn's luminous recording (on RCA).

At the risk of veering of-topic: The Shostakovich 13th?, 14th? The Execution of Stepan Razin?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on April 23, 2022, 06:27:17 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 23, 2022, 06:12:12 AM
At the risk of veering of-topic: The Shostakovich 13th?, 14th? The Execution of Stepan Razin?

Never even considered listening to them.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 23, 2022, 06:29:28 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 22, 2022, 07:41:19 PM
I must confess, I have never heard a single note of A Sea Symphony. I do not enjoy chorus and orchestra music past Bach (or maybe Mozart and some small scale neoclassical works) and particularly find a Baritone (or Bass) operatic voice unpleasant. The seventh symphony is demoted due to the use of a wind machine. I formerly considered the third symphony to be a weak link, until hearing Andre Previn's luminous recording (on RCA).

Some various works that use the wind machine (copied-and-pasted from Wikipedia):

Jean-Philippe Rameau: Les Boréades
Giacomo Puccini: La Fanciulla del West
Gioachino Rossini: The Barber of Seville
Richard Wagner: Der fliegende Holländer
Richard Strauss: Don Quixote, Eine Alpensinfonie, Josephslegende, Die ägyptische Helena, and Die Frau ohne Schatten
Edward Elgar: The Starlight Express
Maurice Ravel: Daphnis et Chloé, L'enfant et les sortilèges, The orchestration version of Gaspard de la nuit - Scarbo
Gottfried Huppertz: "Chronicles of the Gray House"
Olivier Messiaen: Des canyons aux étoiles..., Saint François d'Assise and Éclairs sur l'au-delà...
Arnold Schoenberg: Die Jakobsleiter
Darius Milhaud: Les choëphores
Benjamin Britten: Noye's Fludde
Gyorgy Ligeti: Le Grand Macabre
Ralph Vaughan Williams: Sinfonia antartica
Ferde Grofé: Grand Canyon Suite
Jerry Goldsmith: The Blue Max
Philip Sparke: Music Of The Spheres
Fazıl Say: Symphony No 3 Universe
Michael Tippett: Symphony No. 4

Honestly, I can't fathom disliking a piece just because it uses a wind machine. It can be quite an effective orchestral "color" as long as it's not overdone. For example, one of my favorite moments in Strauss' Don Quixote is The Ride through the Air, which uses it to extravagant effect. I can't imagine anyone not getting a rise out of this particular movement, especially in a live setting.

As for your disliking of vocals, this is something the younger version of me could sympathize with you about, but nowadays I simply couldn't, because I find that while classical vocals do take some getting used to, that, if done tastefully and with a pleasing timbre, they can move me. I mean let's take something as obvious as Strauss' Vier letzte Lieder. If you get nothing from this work and the emotion that a fine soprano can invoke within it, I have to wonder what the hell does move you? I've come to love many vocal works and I hope that one day you can, too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on April 23, 2022, 06:35:23 AM
Indeed, never say never...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 23, 2022, 06:47:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2022, 06:29:28 AM
Some various works that use the wind machine (copied-and-pasted from Wikipedia):

[snip]
Maurice Ravel: Daphnis et Chloé, L'enfant et les sortilèges, The orchestration version of Gaspard de la nuit - Scarbo

Well, as we've now careened off-topic (for which I certainly don't fault you, John ... probably I am responsible, as having picked up a tangent): in whose orchestration? (my perhaps faulty recollection being that Ravel himself did not arrange Gaspard for orchestra.)

Irreverent aside: Is Ferde Grofé's Grand Canyon Suite "serious music?" Asking for a friend.

Entirely puny effort to honor the topic: Yesterday & today, I have richly enjoyed Barbirolli's 1967 recording of A London Symphony. And I am so glad that our spotted horses has seen the light viz. A Pastoral Symphony.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on April 23, 2022, 07:11:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 23, 2022, 06:12:12 AM
At the risk of veering of-topic: The Shostakovich 13th?, 14th? The Execution of Stepan Razin?

That is funny you say that because the 14th has just came out of nowhere to get stuck in my head.  I haven't listened to it in either months or years but there it is in my brain!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 23, 2022, 07:36:40 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 23, 2022, 06:47:07 AM
Well, as we've now careened off-topic (for which I certainly don't fault you, John ... probably I am responsible, as having picked up a tangent): in whose orchestration? (my perhaps faulty recollection being that Ravel himself did not arrange Gaspard for orchestra.)

Irreverent aside: Is Ferde Grofé's Grand Canyon Suite "serious music?" Asking for a friend.

I don't think Grofé is serious music at all, but goodness is it fun! As for the Ravel Gaspard orchestration, I'm not sure who orchestrated it, but I'm pressed for time, so Google will have to be your friend here. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on April 23, 2022, 07:45:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2022, 07:36:40 AM
I don't think Grofé is serious music at all, but goodness is it fun! As for the Ravel Gaspard orchestration, I'm not sure who orchestrated it, but I'm pressed for time, so Google will have to be your friend here. ;)

Marius Constant did it. Slatkin recorded it for Naxos - and presumably others I'm not aware of.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 23, 2022, 07:49:27 AM
Quote from: André on April 23, 2022, 07:45:41 AM
Marius Constant did it. Slatkin recorded it for Naxos - and presumably others I'm not aware of.

8) Thanks for the feedback.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 23, 2022, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: André on April 23, 2022, 07:45:41 AM
Marius Constant did it.

Of Twilight Zone theme fame!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 23, 2022, 08:41:48 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 23, 2022, 07:11:47 AM
That is funny you say that because the 14th has just came out of nowhere to get stuck in my head.  I haven't listened to it in either months or years but there it is in my brain!

I am not really surprised: stunning piece!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 23, 2022, 02:31:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2022, 06:29:28 AM
Some various works that use the wind machine (copied-and-pasted from Wikipedia):

Jean-Philippe Rameau: Les Boréades
Giacomo Puccini: La Fanciulla del West
Gioachino Rossini: The Barber of Seville
Richard Wagner: Der fliegende Holländer
Richard Strauss: Don Quixote, Eine Alpensinfonie, Josephslegende, Die ägyptische Helena, and Die Frau ohne Schatten
Edward Elgar: The Starlight Express
Maurice Ravel: Daphnis et Chloé, L'enfant et les sortilèges, The orchestration version of Gaspard de la nuit - Scarbo
Gottfried Huppertz: "Chronicles of the Gray House"
Olivier Messiaen: Des canyons aux étoiles..., Saint François d'Assise and Éclairs sur l'au-delà...
Arnold Schoenberg: Die Jakobsleiter
Darius Milhaud: Les choëphores
Benjamin Britten: Noye's Fludde
Gyorgy Ligeti: Le Grand Macabre
Ralph Vaughan Williams: Sinfonia antartica
Ferde Grofé: Grand Canyon Suite
Jerry Goldsmith: The Blue Max
Philip Sparke: Music Of The Spheres
Fazıl Say: Symphony No 3 Universe
Michael Tippett: Symphony No. 4



+ Havergal Brian Symphony No.10.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 23, 2022, 04:43:26 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2022, 06:03:49 AM
I think my general problem is with the work itself, but I'll go back and give the Previn a listen. I don't like Hickox's RVW on Chandos much. I do like his earlier EMI recordings. His Job is still a long-standing favorite of mine.

I understand.  Just an FYI - Hickox didn't do No. 9 on Chandos.  He died before but performed it in concert and I thought it was great but it isn't part of the chandos cycle.  That instead went to a lame Andrew Davis performance.  I think you should listen to No. 9 from my remastering of Previn/LSO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on April 23, 2022, 08:09:01 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 23, 2022, 04:43:26 PM
I understand.  Just an FYI - Hickox didn't do No. 9 on Chandos.  He died before but performed it in concert and I thought it was great but it isn't part of the chandos cycle.  That instead went to a lame Andrew Davis performance.  I think you should listen to No. 9 from my remastering of Previn/LSO.

Ah okay, but your remastered of Previn/LSO? :-\ I thought Sony did a nice job on their budget remastered set, so I'm content with it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 23, 2022, 11:18:38 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 23, 2022, 04:43:26 PM
I understand.  Just an FYI - Hickox didn't do No. 9 on Chandos.  He died before but performed it in concert and I thought it was great but it isn't part of the chandos cycle.  That instead went to a lame Andrew Davis performance.  I think you should listen to No. 9 from my remastering of Previn/LSO.
I was at that concert featuring Hickox conducting No.9 - what a shame that it wasn't recorded.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 24, 2022, 12:25:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 22, 2022, 11:01:32 AM
I will listen to No.4 again Lol. While recognising its greatness it has lost some of its appeal to me compared with No.6, which I prefer. I think that placing 'In the Fen Country' between the two turbulent symphonies was a clever move and I think that it's a fine performance.
I think that my rank order of VW symphonies would now be:
No 6
No 9
No 2
No 1
No 8
No 7
No 5
No 4
No 3

I think it has more to do with me Jeffrey and less the performance. I have been guilty of thinking the 4th a poor relation to the 6th instead of valuating the work on it's own terms. Though lacking the raw energy of other performances in a way the more structured approach of Wilson came as a revelation.
I could not begin to put the symphonies in any order of preference, 1st aside - which one day the penny may drop with that too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 24, 2022, 05:52:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 23, 2022, 11:18:38 PM
I was at that concert featuring Hickox conducting No.9 - what a shame that it wasn't recorded.

That is a shame.  It was far superior to the Andrew Davis performance they used to close out an otherwise fine cycle. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 30, 2022, 04:04:18 PM
I've fallen under the spell of No. 3.  What a deeply moving work.  It's so gorgeous and unique.  Makes me want to do a deep dive in to why it compels my attention.  I've heard it multiple times but for some reason, right now it really resonated with me.  All the recordings I've heard have been excellent.  They are Boult, Previn, Hickox.  They all seem to penetrate this work at a deeper level.  Those performances seem to transcend the notes.  That is what makes RVW one of my top five favorite composers.  The subtext.  On the surface, the music is very enjoyable, but there is always a deeper meaning to the music.  Each new recording or performance seems to reveal some nuance I've never caught before.  No. 3 is such a gem and really connected with me now more than any other time I've heard it. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on May 01, 2022, 08:51:04 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 23, 2022, 02:31:52 PM
+ Havergal Brian Symphony No.10.

I thought that was a thunder sheet, not a wind machine.

Thread duty: Wound up with the Haitink symphonies box last week and started work on it today with No. 8.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 01, 2022, 12:52:00 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 30, 2022, 04:04:18 PM
I've fallen under the spell of No. 3.  What a deeply moving work.  It's so gorgeous and unique.  Makes me want to do a deep dive in to why it compels my attention.  I've heard it multiple times but for some reason, right now it really resonated with me.  All the recordings I've heard have been excellent.  They are Boult, Previn, Hickox.  They all seem to penetrate this work at a deeper level.  Those performances seem to transcend the notes.  That is what makes RVW one of my top five favorite composers.  The subtext.  On the surface, the music is very enjoyable, but there is always a deeper meaning to the music.  Each new recording or performance seems to reveal some nuance I've never caught before.  No. 3 is such a gem and really connected with me now more than any other time I've heard it.
Very interesting analysis, with which I very much agree. I don't know any other recording which has the depth of understanding of Previn's LSO account. Elder and Boult (Decca) are also very good.

The Proms concerts this year commemorates VW's 150th birthday with several of his works featured, including symphonies 1 and 4, the Tuba Concerto and, of course, the Lark Ascending and Tallis. The Proms programme features some articles about VW. I'm not sure that I'll get to any of the concerts but the one featuring Carwithen's 'Bishop Rock', Grace Williams's 'Sea Pictures' and VW's 'Sea Symphony' interests me.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2022, 02:10:58 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 30, 2022, 04:04:18 PM
I've fallen under the spell of No. 3.  What a deeply moving work.  It's so gorgeous and unique.  Makes me want to do a deep dive in to why it compels my attention.  I've heard it multiple times but for some reason, right now it really resonated with me.  All the recordings I've heard have been excellent.  They are Boult, Previn, Hickox.  They all seem to penetrate this work at a deeper level.  Those performances seem to transcend the notes.  That is what makes RVW one of my top five favorite composers.  The subtext.  On the surface, the music is very enjoyable, but there is always a deeper meaning to the music.  Each new recording or performance seems to reveal some nuance I've never caught before.  No. 3 is such a gem and really connected with me now more than any other time I've heard it.

I can only nod my head along with your own, relm1. One of the composer's masterpieces for sure. The Previn is out-of-this-world good, but I've come to admire many other performances through the years like Thomson, Elder and, of course, Boult.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 01, 2022, 02:14:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 01, 2022, 02:10:58 PM
I can only nod my head along with your own, relm1. One of the composer's masterpieces for sure. The Previn is out-of-this-world good, but I've come to admire many other performances through the years like Thomson, Elder and, of course, Boult.
I agree about Thomson as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 04, 2022, 10:02:31 PM
Looking forward to receiving this:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/May/VW-sys-ICAC5164.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 05, 2022, 05:52:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 04, 2022, 10:02:31 PM
Looking forward to receiving this:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/May/VW-sys-ICAC5164.htm

Wow, that's a fast No. 5!  Curious to know what you think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2022, 10:35:21 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 05, 2022, 05:52:07 AM
Wow, that's a fast No. 5!  Curious to know what you think.
Delivery is late but I hope to receive it soon.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2022, 10:49:25 PM
Forthcoming set:
https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%205303
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 05, 2022, 11:50:31 PM
I picked up for £4.00 the remastered box set of the Decca/Boult cycle.  I had been thinking about the recent Pristine remastering but even allowing for the 'improved' remastering I'm not such a fan of old mono recordings that I want to collect that cycle as it develops so this seemed like a good option;

(https://cloud10.todocoleccion.online/musica-cds/tc/2018/12/19/16/144236842.jpg)

What I had never realised before was that John Culshaw was the producer for the bulk of the cycle with Kenneth Wilkinson as engineer.  Also, December 1953 saw the Sea Symphony & Antarctica AND Symphonies 4,5 & 6 all put in the can.  That was a pretty intensive RVW month!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 06, 2022, 04:51:45 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 05, 2022, 11:50:31 PM
I picked up for £4.00 the remastered box set of the Decca/Boult cycle.  I had been thinking about the recent Pristine remastering but even allowing for the 'improved' remastering I'm not such a fan of old mono recordings that I want to collect that cycle as it develops so this seemed like a good option;

(https://cloud10.todocoleccion.online/musica-cds/tc/2018/12/19/16/144236842.jpg)

What I had never realised before was that John Culshaw was the producer for the bulk of the cycle with Kenneth Wilkinson as engineer.  Also, December 1953 saw the Sea Symphony & Antarctica AND Symphonies 4,5 & 6 all put in the can.  That was a pretty intensive RVW month!

Interestingly, by December 1953, RVW had yet to write two more symphonies.  Maybe since he had turned 81, people thought he was done.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 06, 2022, 06:41:51 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 06, 2022, 04:51:45 AM
Interestingly, by December 1953, RVW had yet to write two more symphonies.  Maybe since he had turned 81, people thought he was done.

very good point - No.8 was recorded in September 1956 and No.9 (in/famously) the day after RVW died.  Nos 2 & 3 were recorded in Jan. & Dec. 1952 respectively.....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 06, 2022, 07:03:19 AM
The new boxed set of the Chandos Hickox/Davis symphony cycle also, interestingly, includes interviews with Barbirolli (recorded on the day of the composer's death), Boult, Ursula VW as well as radio talks by the composer himself.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on May 06, 2022, 07:06:43 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 05, 2022, 11:50:31 PM
What I had never realised before was that John Culshaw was the producer for the bulk of the cycle with Kenneth Wilkinson as engineer.  Also, December 1953 saw the Sea Symphony & Antarctica AND Symphonies 4,5 & 6 all put in the can.  That was a pretty intensive RVW month!

Yes, a productive month. Dorati recorded 104 Haydn symphonies from 1969 to 1972. That's 26 symphonies per year, more than 2 a month. In contrast, the latest Haydn cycle, I've read, isn't expected to be complete within my life expectancy. :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on May 06, 2022, 07:11:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2022, 10:49:25 PM
Forthcoming set:
https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%205303

Is there any particular symphony in the set that you would rec for me to dip my toes in Hickox' RVW?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on May 06, 2022, 07:15:03 AM
Quote from: DavidW on May 06, 2022, 07:11:48 AM
Is there any particular symphony in the set that you would rec for me to dip my toes in Hickox' RVW?

You didn't ask me, but the 2nd is an obvious choice, since it is the only recording ever made of the original version of the symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on May 06, 2022, 07:15:40 AM
Quote from: DavidW on May 06, 2022, 07:11:48 AM
Is there any particular symphony in the set that you would rec for me to dip my toes in Hickox' RVW?

Whatever Jeffrey recommends will be worth hearing, but for me, the original 1913 version of #2 from this cycle, is unmatched.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on May 06, 2022, 11:34:47 AM
Okay I'll try to listen to #2 tonight or tomorrow from the set!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 06, 2022, 11:57:07 AM
Quote from: DavidW on May 06, 2022, 07:11:48 AM
Is there any particular symphony in the set that you would rec for me to dip my toes in Hickox' RVW?
Danny and Arthur have given you good advice!
No.2 is a must as it is the only recording of the original 1913 version. No other recording is allowed, although there are a few of the 1920 version (Arthur 'Spotted Horses' explained why more recordings were allowed as, unlike the 1913 version, it had been published - I couldn't understand this before). I think that Hickox's No.5 is good (it originally came with interesting fill-ups like 'The Pilgrim's Pavement' - hopefully a separate set may come out including them some day). I'm re-evaluating Hickox's performances, which I was initially a bit snooty about. I recall enjoying Symphony No.4 (originally with the Mass) so, am happy to recommend those ones. I don't have a problem with the Andrew Davis performances (7 and 9) although relm1 of this forum is quite critical of them I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 07, 2022, 09:29:25 AM
Somm are going to issue a CD of Malcolm Sargent conducting symphonies 6 and 9. I would guess that No.9 is the controversial world premiere performance (both are BBC recordings). I'm looking forward to hearing what Sargent makes of No.6.

This morning I received this CD from Portugal and have greatly enjoyed this powerful and urgent performance (Portuguese premiere from 1958 recorded shortly after Boult's Everest disc and a few months after the composer's death:
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-5159/
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 08, 2022, 04:48:14 AM
The Ninth is the RVW Symphony I have probably listened to least. To make up for that I have just listened to Slatkin/Philharmonia - from the cycle I have listened to least. Fine performance but I find the Ninth interesting rather than lovable,
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 08, 2022, 04:55:42 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 08, 2022, 04:48:14 AM
The Ninth is the RVW Symphony I have probably listened to least. To make up for that I have just listened to Slatkin/Philharmonia - from the cycle I have listened to least. Fine performance but I find the Ninth interesting rather than lovable,
Slatkin's is one of the best recordings IMO. I find the ending of the Ninth Symphony to be very moving.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on May 08, 2022, 01:04:19 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 06, 2022, 11:57:07 AM
Danny and Arthur have given you good advice!
No.2 is a must as it is the only recording of the original 1913 version. No other recording is allowed, although there are a few of the 1920 version (Arthur 'Spotted Horses' explained why more recordings were allowed as, unlike the 1913 version, it had been published - I couldn't understand this before). I think that Hickox's No.5 is good (it originally came with interesting fill-ups like 'The Pilgrim's Pavement' - hopefully a separate set may come out including them some day). I'm re-evaluating Hickox's performances, which I was initially a bit snooty about. I recall enjoying Symphony No.4 (originally with the Mass) so, am happy to recommend those ones. I don't have a problem with the Andrew Davis performances (7 and 9) although relm1 of this forum is quite critical of them I think.

I'm by no means an expert copyright law, but it is a peculiarity that the U.S. extended copyright for works not already in the public domain in 1998 (when the law was passed). The previous rule was that copyright is valid for 75 years from publication, meaning works published before 1923 were already in public domain and not covered by the extension. If you could find a copy in a library, bookshop, you could use it as you wished. This applies in the U.S., I think it is not public domain in the European Union.

I think the copyright status of the original versions is complicated. I assume Ursula Vaughan Williams could control performances because the 1914 version was simply unavailable, and it could only be obtained directly from her, with whatever conditions she would impose. Perhaps if someone were to find the original score in some attic in Germany where Fritz Busch stashed it and forgot about it, it would be considered public domain (under U.S. law) and performed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on May 08, 2022, 01:06:24 PM
I listened to that Hickox 2nd last night, and it was fantastic!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 08, 2022, 01:58:12 PM
I've just returned from a fantastic concert at a local church featuring The Wasps Overture (which I enjoyed much more than expected hearing it live), the Lark Ascending (as above) the Tallis Fantasia and Symphony No. 5 - all beautifully performed by the Southbank Sinfonia conducted by Simon Over. It was a very moving occasion and my wife went so far as to say that it was the best concert that she had ever attended. This all VW concert was, I think, the first all VW concert that I attended since the two conducted by Boult (Royal Festival Hall and Westminster Abbey), as a 17 year old, as part of the VW centenary celebrations in 1972. Tonight's concert  (for VW's 150th Birthday) reaffirmed my faith in the 5th Symphony and left me wondering if it is Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony. A most moving occasion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on May 09, 2022, 07:26:50 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 08, 2022, 01:58:12 PM
I've just returned from a fantastic concert at a local church featuring The Wasps Overture (which I enjoyed much more than expected hearing it live), the Lark Ascending (as above) the Tallis Fantasia and Symphony No. 5 - all beautifully performed by the Southbank Sinfonia conducted by Simon Over. It was a very moving occasion and my wife went so far as to say that it was the best concert that she had ever attended. This all VW concert was, I think, the first all VW concert that I attended since the two conducted by Boult (Royal Festival Hall and Westminster Abbey), as a 17 year old, as part of the VW centenary celebrations in 1972. Tonight's concert  (for VW's 150th Birthday) reaffirmed my faith in the 5th Symphony and left me wondering if it is Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony. A most moving occasion.

Lucky you, Jeffrey! I wish I was there. I enjoy all of those works programmed in that concert.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on May 09, 2022, 07:29:29 PM
Just stumbled upon this:

(https://www.warnerclassics.com/sites/default/files/styles/release_and_playlist_cover_756_x_756/public/2022-04/0190296245374%20Vaughan%20Williams%20-%20New%20Collector%20Edition%20%2830%20CD%29%20Cover.jpg?itok=5dgHrmhS)

It could be of interest for many here. The link below doesn't provide much information, but it does show that it will be released in September.

https://www.warnerclassics.com/release/vaughan-williams-edition
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2022, 07:38:19 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 09, 2022, 07:29:29 PM
Just stumbled upon this:

(https://www.warnerclassics.com/sites/default/files/styles/release_and_playlist_cover_756_x_756/public/2022-04/0190296245374%20Vaughan%20Williams%20-%20New%20Collector%20Edition%20%2830%20CD%29%20Cover.jpg?itok=5dgHrmhS)

It could be of interest for many here. The link below doesn't provide much information, but it does show that it will be released in September.

https://www.warnerclassics.com/release/vaughan-williams-edition

I won't need it, but this will probably be an outstanding introduction to the composer as long as they stay away from Haitink's symphony cycle. A remaster of the Handley set would be a great thing --- a much needed boast in the volume level and some sizzle in the lows, mids and highs would be ideal. I doubt Warner have remastered, so it's just wishful thinking. Anyway, everything I say about this forthcoming set is speculation, but it could be a mixture of symphony recordings from Boult, Haitink, Haitink, Berglund, Davis, Barbirolli et. al. We'll just have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on May 09, 2022, 07:43:52 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 09, 2022, 07:29:29 PM
Just stumbled upon this:

(https://www.warnerclassics.com/sites/default/files/styles/release_and_playlist_cover_756_x_756/public/2022-04/0190296245374%20Vaughan%20Williams%20-%20New%20Collector%20Edition%20%2830%20CD%29%20Cover.jpg?itok=5dgHrmhS)

It could be of interest for many here. The link below doesn't provide much information, but it does show that it will be released in September.

https://www.warnerclassics.com/release/vaughan-williams-edition

Based on the conductors listed, there's a lot of carryover from the original EMI Collector's Edition.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 09, 2022, 07:38:19 PM
I won't need it, but this will probably be an outstanding introduction to the composer as long as they stay away from Haitink's symphony cycle. A remaster of the Handley set would be a great thing --- a much needed boast in the volume level and some sizzle in the lows, mids and highs would be ideal. I doubt Warner have remastered, so it's just wishful thinking. Anyway, everything I say about this forthcoming set is speculation, but it could be a mixture of symphony recordings from Boult, Haitink, Haitink, Berglund, Davis, Barbirolli et. al. We'll just have to wait and see.

The original EMI version used Handley's cycle. I'm assuming they'll do the same in this one. The four conductors listed are Handley, Davies, Boult, and Hickox.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 09, 2022, 10:01:25 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 09, 2022, 07:26:50 PM
Lucky you, Jeffrey! I wish I was there. I enjoy all of those works programmed in that concert.
Thanks Cesar  :)
It was quite emotional hearing live music again and the conductor made a short speech about it. It made such a difference hearing those very familiar works live.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 09, 2022, 10:08:49 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 09, 2022, 07:29:29 PM
Just stumbled upon this:

(https://www.warnerclassics.com/sites/default/files/styles/release_and_playlist_cover_756_x_756/public/2022-04/0190296245374%20Vaughan%20Williams%20-%20New%20Collector%20Edition%20%2830%20CD%29%20Cover.jpg?itok=5dgHrmhS)

It could be of interest for many here. The link below doesn't provide much information, but it does show that it will be released in September.

https://www.warnerclassics.com/release/vaughan-williams-edition
Very interesting Cesar! Hadn't seen this. The Meredith Davies must be 'Riders to the Sea' I guess. I suspect that it duplicates much of the'Old' Collectors Edition (as Jeffrey/JBS suggests)  but we shall see. I'm told that Somm are issuing Sargent conducting symphonies 6 and 9 (World Premiere?) and I'm looking forward to seeing that but can find no information about it yet. The new ICA CD of Boult conducting symphonies 6 and 9 is on its way (first CD release according to the publicity) and I'm looking forward to receiving it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 10, 2022, 12:12:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 08, 2022, 01:58:12 PM
I've just returned from a fantastic concert at a local church featuring The Wasps Overture (which I enjoyed much more than expected hearing it live), the Lark Ascending (as above) the Tallis Fantasia and Symphony No. 5 - all beautifully performed by the Southbank Sinfonia conducted by Simon Over. It was a very moving occasion and my wife went so far as to say that it was the best concert that she had ever attended. This all VW concert was, I think, the first all VW concert that I attended since the two conducted by Boult (Royal Festival Hall and Westminster Abbey), as a 17 year old, as part of the VW centenary celebrations in 1972. Tonight's concert  (for VW's 150th Birthday) reaffirmed my faith in the 5th Symphony and left me wondering if it is Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony. A most moving occasion.
Must have been a great experience, lucky you!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2022, 03:03:38 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 10, 2022, 12:12:17 AM
Must have been a great experience, lucky you!
I enjoyed it much more than expected - my wife even more so.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on May 10, 2022, 03:11:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 10, 2022, 03:03:38 AM
I enjoyed it much more than expected - my wife even more so.

Delighted it was such a positive experience and enjoyable for both of you. Such occasions are so important against the humdrum and the ordinary rhythm of life, and particularly in turbulent days. Refuge in simple pleasures is increasingly crucial to me nowadays.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2022, 05:21:48 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on May 10, 2022, 03:11:54 AM
Delighted it was such a positive experience and enjoyable for both of you. Such occasions are so important against the humdrum and the ordinary rhythm of life, and particularly in turbulent days. Refuge in simple pleasures is increasingly crucial to me nowadays.
Very nicely expressed Danny.

I'm sure that Vaughan Williams's 5th Symphony offered consolation to the Londoners who first heard it (conducted by the composer) during the dark days of World War Two.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 10, 2022, 05:24:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 08, 2022, 01:58:12 PM
I've just returned from a fantastic concert at a local church featuring The Wasps Overture (which I enjoyed much more than expected hearing it live), the Lark Ascending (as above) the Tallis Fantasia and Symphony No. 5 - all beautifully performed by the Southbank Sinfonia conducted by Simon Over. It was a very moving occasion and my wife went so far as to say that it was the best concert that she had ever attended. This all VW concert was, I think, the first all VW concert that I attended since the two conducted by Boult (Royal Festival Hall and Westminster Abbey), as a 17 year old, as part of the VW centenary celebrations in 1972. Tonight's concert  (for VW's 150th Birthday) reaffirmed my faith in the 5th Symphony and left me wondering if it is Vaughan Williams's greatest symphony. A most moving occasion.

That sounds amazing!  I myself missed two RVW concerts recently that I'm so sad about - found out about them just days after they passed but it was Sancta Civitas with soloists, choir, organ, and orchestra and Symphony No. 5.  I agree with you, it might be his finest, but I really love them all in different ways. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2022, 05:50:42 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 10, 2022, 05:24:28 AM
That sounds amazing!  I myself missed two RVW concerts recently that I'm so sad about - found out about them just days after they passed but it was Sancta Civitas with soloists, choir, organ, and orchestra and Symphony No. 5.  I agree with you, it might be his finest, but I really love them all in different ways.
That's a shame. I was upset about missing a live performance of Bloch's Symphony in C sharp minor some time back. I actually heard Sancta Civitas in the church where Vaughan Williams married his first wife, Adeline in Hove many years ago. I only made a last minute decision to attend the all VW concert, reassuring my wife that she would like it (she said it was her favourite concert ever). We had good seats, at the front of the church, as they were the only ones left (they cost £30.00 each but I got in free as I teach at the local school). Also, they allowed you to take the interval wine back into the church - so, it was all very civilised  :). I was quite blasé about hearing 'The Wasps Overture' and the 'Lark Ascending' through over-familiarity with them - but, I was quite wrong and it was amazing hearing them live and so well performed, especially after the lockdowns. I'm so glad that I decided to go.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on May 10, 2022, 08:34:29 AM
I'd like to extend thanks to Karl Henning. A couple days ago I saw this thread and clicked the button to view new posts, and the button catapulted me back across pages and pages to an old post Karl wrote about his newfound love of the Concerto for Two Pianos. This morning I listened to the piece and also have a newfound love for this exquisite, fun, atmospheric bit of craftsmanship. What a lovely work!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2022, 11:19:54 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 10, 2022, 08:34:29 AM
I'd like to extend thanks to Karl Henning. A couple days ago I saw this thread and clicked the button to view new posts, and the button catapulted me back across pages and pages to an old post Karl wrote about his newfound love of the Concerto for Two Pianos. This morning I listened to the piece and also have a newfound love for this exquisite, fun, atmospheric bit of craftsmanship. What a lovely work!
It's one of my favourite works by VW (I originally came across it when I took the EMI LP of Boult conducting the 8th Symphony, with which the double PC was coupled (Vronsky/Babin/Boult), out of my local record library in London. It is still my favourite recording (see below). Which recording were you listening to?
(//)

Here is a review of the newly released Boult CD (ICA) featuring symphonies 5 and 6.
I suspect that I may well have been to the 1972 concert as I heard Boult conduct VW several times and lived within walking distance of the Albert Hall. At that date my infatuation with Vaughan Williams's music was at its height:
http://www.colinscolumn.com/ica-classics-issues-sir-adrian-boult-conducting-vaughan-williamss-fifth-sixth-symphonies-from-bbc-proms-in-1972-1975/
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on May 10, 2022, 11:27:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 10, 2022, 11:19:54 AM
It's one of my favourite works by VW (I originally came across it when I took the EMI LP of Boult conducting the 8th Symphony, with which the double PC was coupled (Vronsky/Babin/Boult), out of my local record library in London. It is still my favourite recording (see below). Which recording were you listening to?
Tal & Groethuysen with Douglas Boyd. I will try the classic version next.

Isn't it always a jolt to see a CD of a live concert you attended? I always want to go around bragging to everyone  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2022, 10:55:34 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 10, 2022, 11:27:32 AM
Tal & Groethuysen with Douglas Boyd. I will try the classic version next.

Isn't it always a jolt to see a CD of a live concert you attended? I always want to go around bragging to everyone  ;D

That's a fine version as well. Yes, I agree with what you say about recordings of live concerts which you've attended. In my case the following:

Shostakovich: Symphony 11 'The Year 1905' BBC Radio Classics, John Pritchard
Havergal Brian: 'Gothic Symphony' (along with some other GMG Forum members) Martyn Brabbins (Hyperion CD)
Vaughan Williams: 100th Birthday Concert (Boult conducting 'Job' etc) Intaglio CD 12/10/1972
Bruckner: Symphony No.8 (Horenstein, Proms Concert) BBC Recording
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on May 11, 2022, 08:43:40 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 10, 2022, 08:34:29 AM
I'd like to extend thanks to Karl Henning. A couple days ago I saw this thread and clicked the button to view new posts, and the button catapulted me back across pages and pages to an old post Karl wrote about his newfound love of the Concerto for Two Pianos. This morning I listened to the piece and also have a newfound love for this exquisite, fun, atmospheric bit of craftsmanship. What a lovely work!

+1 The slow movement Romanza is particularly beautiful and moving.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 11, 2022, 08:44:33 AM
Quote from: kyjo on May 11, 2022, 08:43:40 AM
+1 The slow movement Romanza is particularly beautiful and moving.
+2
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 11, 2022, 08:47:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 11, 2022, 08:44:33 AM
+2

+3 :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 11, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.5 BBC SO, Boult
Just arrived (5 minutes ago). It sounds like a wonderful performance, rather sibelian and urgent - very moving. Having heard this work live in concert last Sunday makes this even more special for me. On the basis of the first few minutes I can honestly say that I have never been gripped  as much as I have by this recording of the 5th Symphony (Royal Albert Hall Concert 1975 Proms) My youthful self could have been there:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Leo K. on May 13, 2022, 01:12:30 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 11, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.5 BBC SO, Boult
Just arrived (5 minutes ago). It sounds like a wonderful performance, rather sibelian and urgent - very moving. Having heard this work live in concert last Sunday makes this even more special for me. On the basis of the first few minutes I can honestly say that I have never been gripped  as much as I have by this recording of the 5th Symphony (Royal Albert Hall Concert 1975 Proms) My youthful self could have been there:
(//)

Looks fantastic. Also, think it's time for another listen to the 5th symphony! (All I have is Previn at the moment :) )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2022, 06:28:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 11, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.5 BBC SO, Boult
Just arrived (5 minutes ago). It sounds like a wonderful performance, rather sibelian and urgent - very moving. Having heard this work live in concert last Sunday makes this even more special for me. On the basis of the first few minutes I can honestly say that I have never been gripped  as much as I have by this recording of the 5th Symphony (Royal Albert Hall Concert 1975 Proms) My youthful self could have been there:
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=86740;image)

Jeffrey, I listened to this performance of the 5th with Boult/BBC SO and I have to say I thought the first, second and final movements were quite good, indeed. Where the performance doesn't do much for me is the Romanza. This is one of the worst performances I've heard. It's completely rushed, lacks nuance and is devoid of any kind of emotion. I love this movement so much and believe it to be the centerpiece of the entire symphony. I mean this movement essentially represents his love for Ursula or, at least, this is what I believe as around this time he couldn't get her out of his mind I'm sure. I haven't listened to the performance of the 6th, but this is a symphony I have always liked Boult in, so hopefully, it'll go better.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2022, 06:30:13 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on May 13, 2022, 01:12:30 PM
Looks fantastic. Also, think it's time for another listen to the 5th symphony! (All I have is Previn at the moment :) )

Excellent! Previn with the LSO on RCA remains my reference for this symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 16, 2022, 07:31:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 11, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.5 BBC SO, Boult
Just arrived (5 minutes ago). It sounds like a wonderful performance, rather sibelian and urgent - very moving. Having heard this work live in concert last Sunday makes this even more special for me. On the basis of the first few minutes I can honestly say that I have never been gripped  as much as I have by this recording of the 5th Symphony (Royal Albert Hall Concert 1975 Proms) My youthful self could have been there:
(//)

I don't know this Boult/RVW 5 (the No.6 performance has previously turned up on a couple of CD's including a BBC Music Magazine cover disc).  But your comment regarding the urgency of the performance is interesting.  All too often Boult is/was too easily dismissed as a rather patrician (possibly dull) conductor who in his lifetime was rather taken for granted.  The other easily repeated assumption is that his performances are a bit heavy/solid etc etc.  Of course digging down into this proves that these are unfounded.  Many of Boult's finest performance are wonderfully direct and urgent.  For sure his later Elgar discs do have a rather grander pace but they are by no means "slow" but go back into his earlier discography and many recordings are in fact at the faster end of an average range of timings/tempi
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 16, 2022, 07:39:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2022, 06:28:47 AM
Jeffrey, I listened to this performance of the 5th with Boult/BBC SO and I have to say I thought the first, second and final movements were quite good, indeed. Where the performance doesn't do much for me is the Romanza. This is one of the worst performances I've heard. It's completely rushed, lacks nuance and is devoid of any kind of emotion. I love this movement so much and believe it to be the centerpiece of the entire symphony. I mean this movement essentially represents his love for Ursula or, at least, this is what I believe as around this time he couldn't get her out of his mind I'm sure. I haven't listened to the performance of the 6th, but this is a symphony I have always liked Boult in, so hopefully, it'll go better.
Interesting to hear you views John. I haven't listened to No.6 yet and might wait until my CD player is repaired (I'm using a Sony portable at the moment  :-X). Two underrated performances of No.5 are under Marriner and Thomson, both of which I have enjoyed greatly recently. BBC Record Review chose Haitink as the No. one choice for Symphony No.4 this week.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2022, 02:33:07 AM
New releases:

(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 18, 2022, 02:53:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2022, 02:33:07 AM
New releases:

(//)

Thanks for the tip-off, let's hope Elder is back on form after the disappointing disc of Nos 4 & 6
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on May 18, 2022, 02:59:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2022, 02:33:07 AM
New releases:

(//)

For me, this is a welcome release - I've enjoyed the Elder performances very much. I know they won't become an essential addition to the repertoire because of the standard of releases already in existence from others, but each time I've listened, I've been glad that I did.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2022, 11:24:01 AM
Elder's RVW has been a huge disappointment for me. Only the Pastoral Symphony (w/ it's couplings) has impressed me. Brabbins, on the other hand, has been rather more up my alley and I hope he's able to finish his cycle --- he's got the 6th through the 9th to go and this could be dragged out for a few years.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2022, 02:07:41 PM
Quote from: Biffo on May 18, 2022, 02:53:59 AM
Thanks for the tip-off, let's hope Elder is back on form after the disappointing disc of Nos 4 & 6
Yes, I agree. Like John (MI) I liked 'A Pastoral Symphony'. I might not be able to resist the disc featuring 7 and 9. I like the graphics on the cover of the boxed set.
Incidentally the boxed set (On Amazon UK) is c.£30.00 whereas the double CD set of 7 and 9 is c.£20.00.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2022, 02:14:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2022, 11:24:01 AM
Elder's RVW has been a huge disappointment for me. Only the Pastoral Symphony (w/ it's couplings) has impressed me. Brabbins, on the other hand, has been rather more up my alley and I hope he's able to finish his cycle --- he's got the 6th through the 9th to go and this could be dragged out for a few years.
I'm inclined to agree John. However, I thought that Elder's 'Job' was a fine recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 18, 2022, 02:29:22 PM
Alarm bells begin to ring faintly when I hear terms like 'urgent' and 'Sibelian' coupled with the 5th Symphony.

I have the standard remastered Boult cycle (the 1970s one) and I thought his Fifth was a little too fast and urgent. I prefer more radiant and mystical performances.

But then that's just me. ( I got into trouble on the Froberger thread for expressing such preferences too  ;)).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2022, 02:40:34 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 18, 2022, 02:29:22 PM
Alarm bells begin to ring faintly when I hear terms like 'urgent' and 'Sibelian' coupled with the 5th Symphony.

I have the standard remastered Boult cycle (the 1970s one) and I thought his Fifth was a little too fast and urgent. I prefer more radiant and mystical performances.

But then that's just me. ( I got into trouble on the Froberger thread for expressing such preferences too  ;)).
Well, it is dedicated to Sibelius  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2022, 04:39:21 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2022, 02:40:34 PM
Well, it is dedicated to Sibelius  :)

It may have been dedicated to Sibelius, but the 5th inhabits a completely different sonic realm in comparison. By the time of writing the 5th, RVW was already an established composer and had forged a sound-world that was totally his own. Completely otherworldly. Of course, Sibelius could very well write works that were otherworldly, too, but it sounds like him regardless of what he tried. The same rings true for RVW I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on May 19, 2022, 07:15:35 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 18, 2022, 02:29:22 PM
Alarm bells begin to ring faintly when I hear terms like 'urgent' and 'Sibelian' coupled with the 5th Symphony.

I have the standard remastered Boult cycle (the 1970s one) and I thought his Fifth was a little too fast and urgent. I prefer more radiant and mystical performances.

But then that's just me. ( I got into trouble on the Froberger thread for expressing such preferences too  ;)).

As in the recent (last week) BBC "Building a Library" when the reviewer listened to recordings of the 4th Symphony "blind" which I think a good move as preconceptions do not come into play. Similarly the Menuhin "radiant and mystical" recording of the 5th would rate far higher if the conductor's identity was hidden from the listener. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 19, 2022, 01:37:02 PM
Quote from: Irons on May 19, 2022, 07:15:35 AM
As in the recent (last week) BBC "Building a Library" when the reviewer listened to recordings of the 4th Symphony "blind" which I think a good move as preconceptions do not come into play. Similarly the Menuhin "radiant and mystical" recording of the 5th would rate far higher if the conductor's identity was hidden from the listener.
Interesting point about the Menuhin Lol.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on May 20, 2022, 12:19:15 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 19, 2022, 01:37:02 PM
Interesting point about the Menuhin Lol.

I'm bit of a Menuhin fanboy, Jeffrey. He sullied his reputation by playing his instrument too long into old age when his technique was found wanting but he retained a deep overall musical insight. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 20, 2022, 12:52:48 AM
Quote from: Irons on May 20, 2022, 12:19:15 AM
I'm bit of a Menuhin fanboy, Jeffrey. He sullied his reputation by playing his instrument too long into old age when his technique was found wanting but he retained a deep overall musical insight.

I have to say that the group of recordings Menuhin made with the RPO on their "own" Tring label are very very good indeed - as are his Elgar Symphonies etc with the same  orchestra on Virgin.  HOWEVER, I also know from colleagues who were in the RPO at that time that his conducting technique was so vague and unfathomable that more often than not at key corners in the score it was a case of follow the leader - literally - and ignore the podium.  The curious thing is that - as with his own playing - apparently Menuhin had little or no awareness of just how poor his own technique was.  BUT - when the music was familiar and his technical shortcomings could be accomodated he DID bring musical inspiration as can be heard on those discs.  His Beethoven Symphony cycle with the Sinfonia Varsovia is likewise very good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 20, 2022, 02:44:13 AM
Prompted by recent posts I've listened for the first time to the recordings of the 5th and 6th by Marriner/ASMF.  I really liked both. 
In the 5th, he does not quite displace my first choice which is Kalmar/Oregon but in general the ASMF refinement and light touch suits this music perfectly.  Only in the 3rd movement Romanza does this performance feel slightly prosaic, lacking in sentiment.
In the 6th the same strengths and weaknesses are apparent.  The refined approach robs the first three movements of some of their turbulence and unrest - which I welcome.  On the basis of these three movements, this could be a first choice for me, because noisy angst is not what I come to RVW for.  The Epilogue however is a bit too quick, not so hushed, and again 'prosaic' is the word that springs to mind.  Towards the end it rather sounds as though the bass clarinet player - given a nice solo shortly before the end - takes a unilateral decision to apply the brakes.  Everyone else - conductor included - has to hold their breath until he has finished, and then the last few bars unfold really well.
I don't really know where my first choice lies for the 6th - possibly Andrew Davis/BBC SO.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2022, 06:59:39 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 20, 2022, 12:52:48 AM
I have to say that the group of recordings Menuhin made with the RPO on their "own" Tring label are very very good indeed - as are his Elgar Symphonies etc with the same  orchestra on Virgin.  HOWEVER, I also know from colleagues who were in the RPO at that time that his conducting technique was so vague and unfathomable that more often than not at key corners in the score it was a case of follow the leader - literally - and ignore the podium.  The curious thing is that - as with his own playing - apparently Menuhin had little or no awareness of just how poor his own technique was.  BUT - when the music was familiar and his technical shortcomings could be accomodated he DID bring musical inspiration as can be heard on those discs.  His Beethoven Symphony cycle with the Sinfonia Varsovia is likewise very good.
Most interesting RS.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2022, 07:03:58 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 20, 2022, 02:44:13 AM
Prompted by recent posts I've listened for the first time to the recordings of the 5th and 6th by Marriner/ASMF.  I really liked both. 
In the 5th, he does not quite displace my first choice which is Kalmar/Oregon but in general the ASMF refinement and light touch suits this music perfectly.  Only in the 3rd movement Romanza does this performance feel slightly prosaic, lacking in sentiment.
In the 6th the same strengths and weaknesses are apparent.  The refined approach robs the first three movements of some of their turbulence and unrest - which I welcome.  On the basis of these three movements, this could be a first choice for me, because noisy angst is not what I come to RVW for.  The Epilogue however is a bit too quick, not so hushed, and again 'prosaic' is the word that springs to mind.  Towards the end it rather sounds as though the bass clarinet player - given a nice solo shortly before the end - takes a unilateral decision to apply the brakes.  Everyone else - conductor included - has to hold their breath until he has finished, and then the last few bars unfold really well.
I don't really know where my first choice lies for the 6th - possibly Andrew Davis/BBC SO.
I've always liked that generally poorly-reviewed Marriner disc. I find that it delivers a less urgent but more compassionate reading of No.6, which I find an entirely valid approach. Marriner's 5 may be reissued soon on a different label.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on May 20, 2022, 07:07:24 AM
I'm interested in different interpretation of the 5th. I've been going backward through the Boult/EMI set and No 5 is next in the queue. Comments that Boult's performance is more urgent than some others makes me feel more interested in hearing it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on May 20, 2022, 08:30:59 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 20, 2022, 12:52:48 AM
I have to say that the group of recordings Menuhin made with the RPO on their "own" Tring label are very very good indeed - as are his Elgar Symphonies etc with the same  orchestra on Virgin.  HOWEVER, I also know from colleagues who were in the RPO at that time that his conducting technique was so vague and unfathomable that more often than not at key corners in the score it was a case of follow the leader - literally - and ignore the podium.  The curious thing is that - as with his own playing - apparently Menuhin had little or no awareness of just how poor his own technique was.  BUT - when the music was familiar and his technical shortcomings could be accomodated he DID bring musical inspiration as can be heard on those discs.  His Beethoven Symphony cycle with the Sinfonia Varsovia is likewise very good.

Not a trick question but would you think the same reasoning would apply to Klemperer and his Indian summer with the Philharmonia? It has been said that the Philharmonia made some great records despite Klemperer, not because of him. I have never believed that. Making music is not an exact science, thankfully. 

 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2022, 08:34:32 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 20, 2022, 07:07:24 AM
I'm interested in different interpretation of the 5th. I've been going backward through the Boult/EMI set and No 5 is next in the queue. Comments that Boult's performance is more urgent than some others makes me feel more interested in hearing it.
Arthur, my now infamous 'more urgent' comment related to the new ICA CD of Boult conducting live performances of symphonies 5 and 6 - these are different performances to the studio ones in the Boult/EMI set.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on May 20, 2022, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 20, 2022, 08:34:32 AM
Arthur, my now infamous 'more urgent' comment related to the new ICA CD of Boult conducting live performances of symphonies 5 and 6 - these are different performances to the studio ones in the Boult/EMI set.
(//)

Yes, I'm aware you were remarking on the live recording, but I also noted Roasted Swan's comment (that I agree with) that Boult's performances often have a direct and urgent quality. I expect some of the directness and urgency will manifest itself in the studio recording as well.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2022, 02:40:11 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 20, 2022, 09:03:23 AM
Yes, I'm aware you were remarking on the live recording, but I also noted Roasted Swan's comment (that I agree with) that Boult's performances often have a direct and urgent quality. I expect some of the directness and urgency will manifest itself in the studio recording as well.
Yes, I think that's probably true, although I don't recall that No.5 was one of the highlights of the Boult EMI set. However, all the performances are good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 20, 2022, 07:44:43 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 20, 2022, 07:07:24 AM
I'm interested in different interpretation of the 5th. I've been going backward through the Boult/EMI set and No 5 is next in the queue. Comments that Boult's performance is more urgent than some others makes me feel more interested in hearing it.

There's nothing wrong with urgency as long as it's in the right places, however, this urgency has no place in the Romanza movement and this is what happens in the Boult/BBC SO performance on ICA Classics. This kind of approach goes against what I personally believe the music is about, but, thankfully, there's plenty of other performances to choose from and YMMV.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2022, 10:30:41 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 20, 2022, 07:44:43 PM
There's nothing wrong with urgency as long as it's in the right places, however, this urgency has no place in the Romanza movement and this is what happens in the Boult/BBC SO performance on ICA Classics. This kind of approach goes against what I personally believe the music is about, but, thankfully, there's plenty of other performances to choose from and YMMV.
Had to look up 'YMMV'   8)

What do you think of Bryden Thomson's recording of the 5th Symphony John? I consider it to be one of the best.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 21, 2022, 06:33:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 20, 2022, 10:30:41 PM
Had to look up 'YMMV'   8)

What do you think of Bryden Thomson's recording of the 5th Symphony John? I consider it to be one of the best.

Oh, it's fantastic, Jeffrey, but I love the entire Thomson cycle. It's in my "Top 3" of RVW cycles along with Previn and Boult II.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 21, 2022, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 21, 2022, 06:33:40 AM
Oh, it's fantastic, Jeffrey, but I love the entire Thomson cycle. It's in my "Top 3" of RVW cycles along with Previn and Boult II.
Great to know John!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 22, 2022, 01:54:14 AM
As it seemed to be the current hot topic I listened to Thomson's recording of Symphony No 5. It is a fine performance but the acoustic occasionally seems rather reverberant.

I accumulated the Thomson cycle in piecemeal fashion over a few months and have never listened to it as a cycle. As I recall there are no weak links and some of the performances are excellent. No 4 may be my favourite of the Thomson cycle and my favourite recording of that work though Previn is imprinted on my brain after over 50 years of hearing it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 22, 2022, 01:26:17 PM
Quote from: Biffo on May 22, 2022, 01:54:14 AM
As it seemed to be the current hot topic I listened to Thomson's recording of Symphony No 5. It is a fine performance but the acoustic occasionally seems rather reverberant.

I accumulated the Thomson cycle in piecemeal fashion over a few months and have never listened to it as a cycle. As I recall there are no weak links and some of the performances are excellent. No 4 may be my favourite of the Thomson cycle and my favourite recording of that work though Previn is imprinted on my brain after over 50 years of hearing it.
Yes, it was recorded in a church. I rather like the reverberant acoustic which adds atmosphere IMO. Actually I heard Symphony No.5 in a church locally a few weeks ago. The BBC Music Magazine's old 'Top 1000 CDs' featured Thomson's No.6 as their top choice. Tonight I watched a most interesting TV programme about the friendship between Holst and Vaughan Williams (BBC 4 I think). I much preferred it to the rather overblown documentaries on Vaughan Williams and Holst broadcast some years ago ('The Passions of Vaughan Williams' etc). By focusing just on the years before Holst's premature death I think that this programme achieved more and I found it rather moving - a case of 'less is more' I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on May 24, 2022, 07:38:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 22, 2022, 01:26:17 PM
Yes, it was recorded in a church. I rather like the reverberant acoustic which adds atmosphere IMO. Actually I heard Symphony No.5 in a church locally a few weeks ago. The BBC Music Magazine's old 'Top 1000 CDs' featured Thomson's No.6 as their top choice. Tonight I watched a most interesting TV programme about the friendship between Holst and Vaughan Williams (BBC 4 I think). I much preferred it to the rather overblown documentaries on Vaughan Williams and Holst broadcast some years ago ('The Passions of Vaughan Williams' etc). By focusing just on the years before Holst's premature death I think that this programme achieved more and I found it rather moving - a case of 'less is more' I think.

I watched that too. I think I was meant to as flicking through the channels avoiding "Country File" I came across completely by accident. I didn't realise the friendship between Holst and RVW was so deep and strong. Complete opposites in both stature and temperament perhaps music itself was the force that bound them together.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2022, 07:50:05 AM
Quote from: Irons on May 24, 2022, 07:38:59 AM
I watched that too. I think I was meant to as flicking through the channels avoiding "Country File" I came across completely by accident. I didn't realise the friendship between Holst and RVW was so deep and strong. Complete opposites in both stature and temperament perhaps music itself was the force that bound them together.
I came across it by accident as well Lol. I enjoyed seeing the room in St Paul's Girls School where Holst (or 'Gusty' as the girls called him) composed the Planets. I recall reading that once, when Holst was ill, Vaughan Williams took over his teaching until he recovered.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 25, 2022, 12:25:06 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 22, 2022, 01:26:17 PM
The BBC Music Magazine's old 'Top 1000 CDs' featured Thomson's No.6 as their top choice.
Great to know, because it is my top recommendation too - especially because of its dramatic and powerful opening. I recall buying it in an Amsterdam music store led by a well-known woman, in classical music circles, who confided me that she didn't like Vaughan Williams at all. I paid full price, which was a large amount of money in those days (before internet stores took over, new CDs would cost about twice as much), and came home with a high RVW fever, for this recording really did it for me.

Enjoy the other stories told here very much as well, many thanks!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 25, 2022, 05:29:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 24, 2022, 07:50:05 AM
I came across it by accident as well Lol. I enjoyed seeing the room in St Paul's Girls School where Holst (or 'Gusty' as the girls called him) composed the Planets. I recall reading that once, when Holst was ill, Vaughan Williams took over his teaching until he recovered.

Incidentally, the same job Derek Bourgeois later had sharing that same desk!  Imagine all the great music creation that desk was witness to. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2022, 06:18:04 AM
Quote from: Christo on May 25, 2022, 12:25:06 AM
Great to know, because it is my top recommendation too - especially because of its dramatic and powerful opening. I recall buying it in an Amsterdam music store led by a well-known woman, in classical music circles, who confided me that she didn't like Vaughan Williams at all. I paid full price, which was a large amount of money in those days (before internet stores took over, new CDs would cost about twice as much), and came home with a high RVW fever, for this recording really did it for me.

Enjoy the other stories told here very much as well, many thanks!

That's a great anecdote, Johan! I hope you are well my friend.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on May 25, 2022, 07:49:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 24, 2022, 07:50:05 AM
I came across it by accident as well Lol. I enjoyed seeing the room in St Paul's Girls School where Holst (or 'Gusty' as the girls called him) composed the Planets. I recall reading that once, when Holst was ill, Vaughan Williams took over his teaching until he recovered.

Holst didn't see 60! The quote from Vaughan Williams at the end of the programme resonated, Jeffrey. Writing to Holst's wife "My only thoughts now what am I to do without him". 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on May 25, 2022, 07:54:29 AM
Quote from: Christo on May 25, 2022, 12:25:06 AM
Great to know, because it is my top recommendation too - especially because of its dramatic and powerful opening. I recall buying it in an Amsterdam music store led by a well-known woman, in classical music circles, who confided me that she didn't like Vaughan Williams at all. I paid full price, which was a large amount of money in those days (before internet stores took over, new CDs would cost about twice as much), and came home with a high RVW fever, for this recording really did it for me.

Enjoy the other stories told here very much as well, many thanks!

Good to "see" you, Johan!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 25, 2022, 08:30:09 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2022, 07:54:29 AM
Good to "see" you, Johan!
Indeed! +1  :) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on May 25, 2022, 09:13:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 25, 2022, 08:30:09 AM
Indeed! +1  :) :)

+2!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 25, 2022, 10:30:21 PM
I thought that this was an interesting article/review of the Pristine Audio remastered recording of Boult's original LPO recording of 'A Sea Symphony'. I have the new CD but have not played it yet. I agree with the point that he makes about the superiority of some of the earlier/Decca performances compared with Boult's later EMI recordings of the symphonies (good as they are):
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/May/VWilliams-sea-PASC658.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on May 26, 2022, 02:35:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 25, 2022, 10:30:21 PM
I thought that this was an interesting article/review of the Pristine Audio remastered recording of Boult's original LPO recording of 'A Sea Symphony'. I have the new CD but have not played it yet. I agree with the point that he makes about the superiority of some of the earlier/Decca performances compared with Boult's later EMI recordings of the symphonies (good as they are):
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/May/VWilliams-sea-PASC658.htm

Thanks for bringing the review to my attention.

I have to be in a special mood to listen to the Sea Symphony and don't often get to the end.

I appreciate what the reviewer has to say about problems of balance. The BBC broadcast a performance conducted by Martyn Brabbins from the Edinburgh Festival and it was excellent. Unfortunately, his recording, with different forces, issued a few months later suffers from the sort of balance problems mentioned in the review. If I set the soloists to a realistic (?) balance the chorus is often too loud and, worse, at times sections of the choir seem to jump out of the sound picture and are deafening.

The most recent version I tried was from the Bryden Thomson cycle and I found that too wearing and didn't make it to the end of the first movement. In the past Spano/Atlanta and Elder/Halle have been my preferred versions but I haven't listened to either for a while.

I am tempted by the Pristine/ Boult recording but not sure.

Perhaps it just me, my equipment or my ears.

Edit: Vol 2 (Symphonies 2 & 3) is now available from Pristine
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 26, 2022, 03:06:52 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 26, 2022, 02:35:11 AM
Thanks for bringing the review to my attention.

I have to be in a special mood to listen to the Sea Symphony and don't often get to the end.

I appreciate what the reviewer has to say about problems of balance. The BBC broadcast a performance conducted by Martyn Brabbins from the Edinburgh Festival and it was excellent. Unfortunately, his recording, with different forces, issued a few months later suffers from the sort of balance problems mentioned in the review. If I set the soloists to a realistic (?) balance the chorus is often too loud and, worse, at times sections of the choir seem to jump out of the sound picture and are deafening.

The most recent version I tried was from the Bryden Thomson cycle and I found that too wearing and didn't make it to the end of the first movement. In the past Spano/Atlanta and Elder/Halle have been my preferred versions but I haven't listened to either for a while.

I am tempted by the Pristine/ Boult recording but not sure.

Perhaps it just me, my equipment or my ears.

Edit: Vol 2 (Symphonies 2 & 3) is now available from Pristine
My pleasure

IMO the best music in A Sea Symphony is in the finale, so I try to hang on until the end! It was Haitink's recording which brought this work alive to me (it was the same with his recording of Shostakovich's 13th Symphony 'Babi Yar'). I was aware that Pristine have now released symphonies 2 and 3. The author of the article that I posted identified symphonies 2,4 and 6 as being better performed in the earlier Decca recordings, with the composer in the recording sessions (I was interested to hear that his hearing aid emitted a high-pitched whistle which caused some problems in the recording session).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 26, 2022, 05:08:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 26, 2022, 03:06:52 AM
My pleasure

IMO the best music in A Sea Symphony is in the finale, so I try to hang on until the end! It was Haitink's recording which brought this work alive to me (it was the same with his recording of Shostakovich's 13th Symphony 'Babi Yar'). I was aware that Pristine have now released symphonies 2 and 3. The author of the article that I posted identified symphonies 2,4 and 6 as being better performed in the earlier Decca recordings, with the composer in the recording sessions (I was interested to hear that his hearing aid emitted a high-pitched whistle which caused some problems in the recording session).

Agreed, I would just add, it's the journey to the ending and especially the Haitink where this became a revelation as the work transcends the sea, becoming more metaphorical.  It's a gorgeous work and Haitink is the one by which all others are compared to.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 26, 2022, 12:18:17 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 26, 2022, 05:08:50 AM
Agreed, I would just add, it's the journey to the ending and especially the Haitink where this became a revelation as the work transcends the sea, becoming more metaphorical.  It's a gorgeous work and Haitink is the one by which all others are compared to.
Beautifully expressed Karim!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 26, 2022, 12:31:08 PM
This arrived today. I know that some members don't like the Hickox recordings. However the 1913 version of 'A London Symphony' (the only recording allowed) is one of the great VW releases. I also rather enjoyed symphonies 3,4 and 5. Symphonies 7 and 9 were recorded by Andrew Davis and I regard them as good rather than great performances (which is my general opinion of Andrew Davis - although his recording of Elgar's 3rd Symphony is my favourite). However I wanted the Hickox/Davis set as one CDs includes Vaughan Williams's broadcast talks about Stanford and Parry and interviews with Barbirolli, Boult and Ursula VW. Also the box is inexpensive (c.£27.00). I'm asking my wife to give it to me for my birthday ('MORE CDS!!!!! DO YOU REALLY NEED THEM ????) ::)
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on May 26, 2022, 01:02:00 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 26, 2022, 12:31:08 PM
This arrived today. I know that some members don't like the Hickox recordings. However the 1913 version of 'A London Symphony' (the only recording allowed) is one of the great VW releases. I also rather enjoyed symphonies 3,4 and 5. Symphonies 7 and 9 were recorded by Andrew Davis and I regard them as good rather than great performances (which is my general opinion of Andrew Davis - although his recording of Elgar's 3rd Symphony is my favourite). However I wanted the Hickox/Davis set as one CDs includes Vaughan Williams's broadcast talks about Stanford and Parry and interviews with Barbirolli, Boult and Ursula VW. Also the box is inexpensive (c.£27.00). I'm asking my wife to give it to me for my birthday ('MORE CDS!!!!! DO YOU REALLY NEED THEM ????) ::)
(//)

I like the Hickox recordings very much, with no problem that some don't 🙂. I love the recommendations and guidance given here by others, but ultimately I am the only guide to my final preferences. Spotify hasn't quite caught up to the completion of this cycle, but I will be grateful when it does.

And of course you really need them.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 26, 2022, 02:32:52 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on May 26, 2022, 01:02:00 PM
I like the Hickox recordings very much, with no problem that some don't 🙂. I love the recommendations and guidance given here by others, but ultimately I am the only guide to my final preferences. Spotify hasn't quite caught up to the completion of this cycle, but I will be grateful when it does.

And of course you really need them.
Yes, I definitely do Danny  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on May 26, 2022, 07:19:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 26, 2022, 12:31:08 PM
This arrived today. I know that some members don't like the Hickox recordings. However the 1913 version of 'A London Symphony' (the only recording allowed) is one of the great VW releases. I also rather enjoyed symphonies 3,4 and 5. Symphonies 7 and 9 were recorded by Andrew Davis and I regard them as good rather than great performances (which is my general opinion of Andrew Davis - although his recording of Elgar's 3rd Symphony is my favourite). However I wanted the Hickox/Davis set as one CDs includes Vaughan Williams's broadcast talks about Stanford and Parry and interviews with Barbirolli, Boult and Ursula VW. Also the box is inexpensive (c.£27.00). I'm asking my wife to give it to me for my birthday ('MORE CDS!!!!! DO YOU REALLY NEED THEM ????) ::)
(//)

I like the Hickox recordings (the ones I've heard). I find it a little disappointing that they employed Andrew Davis the finish the cycle, just because Andrew Davis already has a very good cycle with The BBC Philharmonic on Teldec. I would have preferred they find a new interpreter of Vaughan Williams. I could imagine better cover art.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 26, 2022, 09:29:59 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 26, 2022, 07:19:17 PM
I like the Hickox recordings (the ones I've heard). I find it a little disappointing that they employed Andrew Davis the finish the cycle, just because Andrew Davis already has a very good cycle with The BBC Philharmonic on Teldec. I would have preferred they find a new interpreter of Vaughan Williams. I could imagine better cover art.
I agree with your point about Andrew Davis Arthur. His recording of Symphony No.6 is very good but the others, it is felt, didn't live up to it. However I much prefer his cycle on Teldec to the incomplete Norrington ones or the Manze and most of the Elder recordings. Yes, the cover image is pretty bad. I'm guessing that it's a painted sketch by Sir Gerald Kelly for the (very fine) earlier of his two portraits of VW (featured in the Thomson boxed set):
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 27, 2022, 01:47:22 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 26, 2022, 02:35:11 AM
I have to be in a special mood to listen to the Sea Symphony and don't often get to the end.

My suggestion (as others have hinted) is, next time you are in the mood, go straight to the final movement.  ;)  My favourite recording of the Sea Symphony is that by Slatkin, who is expansive throughout and adopts especially broad tempi (and hushed dynamics) in the final movement.  I remarked recently on another (Holst) thread about a similarity between a brief passage very near the end, and Holst's Neptune.  Both pieces seemingly referencing 'sea', 'outer space', and 'metaphysics' - and ending up sounding rather similar - with the Sea Symphony being slightly the earlier of the two compositions.

Of course Spano that you mentioned is the complete antidote to Slatkin's approach - at first listening, alarmingly quick, I think the fastest on record by some margin.  And with that disarming slight American twang to the choral singing, somehow appropriate when you think about it.  It's another favourite with me.

I don't really understand the general points about difficulty of balance - it is what it is, a late product of the 'English' choral tradition that dates back to Handel and which by the early 20th C had turned into some kind of a monster.  These problems are always going to be baked in, and the only question is whether 'artificial' is an improvement on 'natural'.  I'd love to hear that Oramo Proms performance that was mentioned in the review.  [edit: oh is this it here YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kR3FzJ1Hh4) I'll have a listen to that later!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 27, 2022, 02:43:02 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 27, 2022, 01:47:22 AM
[edit: oh is this it here YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kR3FzJ1Hh4) I'll have a listen to that later!

(nearing the end of the 3rd movt)  Thrilling !!

And Oramo can't keep the broadest of grins off his face  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 27, 2022, 03:11:30 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 27, 2022, 01:47:22 AM
My suggestion (as others have hinted) is, next time you are in the mood, go straight to the final movement.  ;)  My favourite recording of the Sea Symphony is that by Slatkin, who is expansive throughout and adopts especially broad tempi (and hushed dynamics) in the final movement.  I remarked recently on another (Holst) thread about a similarity between a brief passage very near the end, and Holst's Neptune.  Both pieces seemingly referencing 'sea', 'outer space', and 'metaphysics' - and ending up sounding rather similar - with the Sea Symphony being slightly the earlier of the two compositions.

Of course Spano that you mentioned is the complete antidote to Slatkin's approach - at first listening, alarmingly quick, I think the fastest on record by some margin.  And with that disarming slight American twang to the choral singing, somehow appropriate when you think about it.  It's another favourite with me.

I don't really understand the general points about difficulty of balance - it is what it is, a late product of the 'English' choral tradition that dates back to Handel and which by the early 20th C had turned into some kind of a monster.  These problems are always going to be baked in, and the only question is whether 'artificial' is an improvement on 'natural'.  I'd love to hear that Oramo Proms performance that was mentioned in the review.  [edit: oh is this it here YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kR3FzJ1Hh4) I'll have a listen to that later!
Interesting post - I'll have to give the Slatkin recording a listen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 27, 2022, 11:53:48 PM
Oramo's timings in that Prom are very similar to Slatkin (disregarding the inter-movement pauses).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 28, 2022, 12:12:47 AM
Slatkin's Sea Symphony is indeed very good - but actually I like his BBC Music Magazine/BBC SO version even more - just that extra bit of live adrenalin I think....

(https://i.discogs.com/QRsK6I4CpLTPqB9rh27h-OpDRvMl6mEsX0ZCWu52WwA/rs:fit/g:sm/q:40/h:300/w:300/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTg4MTI1/MzktMTQ2OTI5NzEy/MC01NDEzLmpwZWc.jpeg)

Talking of live performances.... I finally go round to the recent BBC Music Mag disc of Symphonies 4&6 with John Wilson and the BBC PO.  Perhaps its a measure of how well and compellingly these works are now played that this left me rather "so what".  The BBC PO play very well indeed and Wilson's pacing is perfectly fine but there was not a single moment in either performance where I sat up and felt gripped.  It was almost as if the very polish of the performances took away from the essential rage and violence in both works - the scherzo of No.4 jaunty and not jagged.  Like being in a Rolls Royce when you want to be in sports car with a broken silencer!  Wilson has yet to prove to me that he is a major interpreter.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2022, 02:40:21 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 28, 2022, 12:12:47 AM
Slatkin's Sea Symphony is indeed very good - but actually I like his BBC Music Magazine/BBC SO version even more - just that extra bit of live adrenalin I think....

(https://i.discogs.com/QRsK6I4CpLTPqB9rh27h-OpDRvMl6mEsX0ZCWu52WwA/rs:fit/g:sm/q:40/h:300/w:300/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTg4MTI1/MzktMTQ2OTI5NzEy/MC01NDEzLmpwZWc.jpeg)

Talking of live performances.... I finally go round to the recent BBC Music Mag disc of Symphonies 4&6 with John Wilson and the BBC PO.  Perhaps its a measure of how well and compellingly these works are now played that this left me rather "so what".  The BBC PO play very well indeed and Wilson's pacing is perfectly fine but there was not a single moment in either performance where I sat up and felt gripped.  It was almost as if the very polish of the performances took away from the essential rage and violence in both works - the scherzo of No.4 jaunty and not jagged.  Like being in a Rolls Royce when you want to be in sports car with a broken silencer!  Wilson has yet to prove to me that he is a major interpreter.
Very much agree with you about those BBC MM VW Wilson performances (although I feel that about a number of his much-hyped recordings). Thanks for reminding us of the Slatkin BBC MM Sea Symphony. I'd forgotten about that one (and I do have it somewhere in my collection  ::)) Apart from the Haitink, which is my very favourite, I also remember liking Handley's recording, although I'm not such a fan of his VW symphonies generally (9 is good).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on May 28, 2022, 11:59:14 AM
That Slatkin BBC recording of Sea Symphony is even better, more ecstatic as it were than Slatkin's studio recording. The engineering is a bit watery and swimmy (no pun intended), not quite as sharply focused as it should be, but the performance carries all before it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 28, 2022, 12:20:39 PM
Quote from: André on May 28, 2022, 11:59:14 AM
That Slatkin BBC recording of Sea Symphony is even better, more ecstatic as it were than Slatkin's studio recording. The engineering is a bit watery and swimmy (no pun intended), not quite as sharply focused as it should be, but the performance carries all before it.

Spot on - but it was a Prom and the Albert Hall is an engineer's nightmare!  Ecstatic is exactly the right word.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on May 29, 2022, 11:30:58 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 28, 2022, 12:12:47 AM
Slatkin's Sea Symphony is indeed very good - but actually I like his BBC Music Magazine/BBC SO version even more - just that extra bit of live adrenalin I think....

(https://i.discogs.com/QRsK6I4CpLTPqB9rh27h-OpDRvMl6mEsX0ZCWu52WwA/rs:fit/g:sm/q:40/h:300/w:300/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTg4MTI1/MzktMTQ2OTI5NzEy/MC01NDEzLmpwZWc.jpeg)

Yeah, this has been my go-to Sea Symphony for a number of years now. A poignant detail about it for me is that this concert happened on September 10th, 2001.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on May 30, 2022, 08:00:11 AM
I have a great affection for A Sea Symphony. I discovered the work in the course of being introduced to RVW's numerous and varied vocal pieces in the early 1980's, having already performed or attended several instrumental programs in earlier concerts. I had the opportunity to perform the work as a chorister a single time, in 1985.

The Boult EMI remains my preferred recording, having also heard Haitink, Previn, Slatkin and the earlier Boult/DECCA release. I think l prefer Haitink as second-best.

Choral quality matters in this work, arguably more than in any other work by RVW. The text must be brought vividly to life, and when considering the scale of Whitman's endeavors,  l think the choral sound should have similar weight and warmth. Narrow, overly-focused choral sound is both distracting and ( imho ) presents a conflicting and constricted palette.

Listening to the chorus at the end of Boult's EMI recording, it truly sound's oceanic. All of the depths and massive timescale of Whitman's efforts are there to be heard, with the fading strings providing a glowing path into eternity.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 30, 2022, 08:58:55 AM
Who ever heard the 'Two Shakespeare Sketches' taken by Muir Mathieson from the score of 'The England of Elizabeth', just like the better known 'Three Portraits', also by Muir Mathieson? I found a performance on Youtube by a school orchestra. I don't think the two sketches contain any music that doesn't appear in the "Three Portraits" - or do they?

https://www.youtube.com/v/jEPOOoXxKc0
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 30, 2022, 10:34:40 PM
Quote from: Christo on May 30, 2022, 08:58:55 AM
Who ever heard the 'Two Shakespeare Sketches' taken by Muir Mathieson from the score of 'The England of Elizabeth', just like the better known 'Three Portraits', also by Muir Mathieson? I found a performance on Youtube by a school orchestra. I don't think the two sketches contain any music that doesn't appear in the "Three Portraits" - or do they?

https://www.youtube.com/v/jEPOOoXxKc0
It all sounds pretty familiar from the 'Three Portraits' Johan although there are some slower tempos but maybe this is due to it being performed by a school orchestra - quite a good performance. I was more aware of the drum at times. An interesting discovery though. Thanks for posting it. I was listening to the Andrew Penny performance yesterday.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on May 31, 2022, 11:31:58 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2022, 07:54:29 AM
Good to "see" you, Johan!
Thank you all, much appreciated!  ;D

Quote from: vandermolen on May 30, 2022, 10:34:40 PM
It all sounds pretty familiar from the 'Three Portraits' Johan although there are some slower tempos but maybe this is due to it being performed by a school orchestra - quite a good performance. I was more aware of the drum at times. An interesting discovery though. Thanks for posting it. I was listening to the Andrew Penny performance yesterday.
We both agree that Previn's is the best of the three extant recordings; though nowadays I'm less inclined to give the honour to the conductor -- I think the influence of conductors is grossly exaggerated.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on May 31, 2022, 01:29:58 PM
It is great to see you posting, Johan. I hope you're doing well and are able to enjoy your life again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 03, 2022, 02:45:00 AM
I got notification of a delivery date (next Tuesday) of the Elder/Halle Sinfonia antartica etc album. Meanwhile I was able to download the mp3 version. I don't usually bother with Amazon downloads but I was keen to hear the album.

I listened to the first two movements of the Sinfonia antartica and the initial impression was that  Elder is a bit on the slow side. He has a total timing of 43' 56 compared with 38'28 for Barbirolli in his world premiere recording and 41'57 for Boult (EMI).

I will wait until I get the CD before playing the complete work and coming to any conclusions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 03, 2022, 05:48:48 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 03, 2022, 02:45:00 AM
I got notification of a delivery date (next Tuesday) of the Elder/Halle Sinfonia antartica etc album. Meanwhile I was able to download the mp3 version. I don't usually bother with Amazon downloads but I was keen to hear the album.

I listened to the first two movements of the Sinfonia antartica and the initial impression was that  Elder is a bit on the slow side. He has a total timing of 43' 56 compared with 38'28 for Barbirolli in his world premiere recording and 41'57 for Boult (EMI).

I will wait until I get the CD before playing the complete work and coming to any conclusions.

I've been rather disappointed with Elder's RVW in general. The only recording I liked was the one with A Pastoral Symphony. He seemed to have an affinity for this symphony, but the others weren't anything special. Ho-hum performances. Brabbins is currently the only ongoing cycle of recent times that has been interesting and, in many cases, highly individual but in the best possible sense.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 03, 2022, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 03, 2022, 05:48:48 AM
I've been rather disappointed with Elder's RVW in general. The only recording I liked was the one with A Pastoral Symphony. He seemed to have an affinity for this symphony, but the others weren't anything special. Ho-hum performances. Brabbins is currently the only ongoing cycle of recent times that has been interesting and, in many cases, highly individual but in the best possible sense.
This is very much my experience as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 04, 2022, 01:32:08 AM
I seem to be the odd one out here. I have generally enjoyed the Elder cycle, only the disc only Nos 4 & 6 was a disappointment and after recent re-listening I have modified my view of No 4 though I still wouldn't count it as a favourite recording. Nos 1 & 8 are probably my favourite versions of all.

I have been collecting the Brabbins cycle at it was issued and while none of the issues were poor and I didn't find them outstanding. No 5 is due to be issued later this month and should be interesting given the stiff competition.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 04, 2022, 02:11:11 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 04, 2022, 01:32:08 AM
I seem to be the odd one out here. I have generally enjoyed the Elder cycle, only the disc only Nos 4 & 6 was a disappointment and after recent re-listening I have modified my view of No 4 though I still wouldn't count it as a favourite recording. Nos 1 & 8 are probably my favourite versions of all.

I have been collecting the Brabbins cycle at it was issued and while none of the issues were poor and I didn't find them outstanding. No 5 is due to be issued later this month and should be interesting given the stiff competition.
Maybe I should have another go with Elder (the complete set is only £30).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 04, 2022, 02:25:49 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 04, 2022, 01:32:08 AM
I seem to be the odd one out here. I have generally enjoyed the Elder cycle, only the disc only Nos 4 & 6 was a disappointment and after recent re-listening I have modified my view of No 4 though I still wouldn't count it as a favourite recording. Nos 1 & 8 are probably my favourite versions of all.

I have been collecting the Brabbins cycle at it was issued and while none of the issues were poor and I didn't find them outstanding. No 5 is due to be issued later this month and should be interesting given the stiff competition.

Brabbins' No.5 has been out for some time - its 6 due for release......

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61eqOKSRlyL.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 04, 2022, 02:44:21 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 04, 2022, 02:25:49 AM
Brabbins' No.5 has been out for some time - its 6 due for release......

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61eqOKSRlyL.jpg)
Yes, I was puzzled by that as I have No.5 too. I look forward to seeing what Brabbins makes of No.6 which, IMO, is difficult to get right on disc. I think that there are only a few entirely successful performances, including Boult (Decca), Berglund, Thomson, Abravanel and Andrew Davis.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 04, 2022, 02:58:58 AM
Sorry for the confusion, I have it a FLAC download and all the others as CDs. I looked at Amazon to see which symphonies Brabbins had recorded and obviously misread the webpage.

This is a second attempt at posting, hope it works this time.

Edit: The Elder/Halle album was featured on Radio 3 Record Review this morning and got a very favourable review from Andrew McGregor. He also described the complete Elder cycle as one of the best in recent years.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 04, 2022, 03:20:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 04, 2022, 02:11:11 AM
Maybe I should have another go with Elder (the complete set is only £30).

I'm in the process of listening to the Elder cycle complete for the first time.  I was genuinely hoping to be more impressed than I have been so far (Nos.7-9 not yet heard).  I like a lot of what Elder has done with the Halle and he is an interesting person when you hear him talk about music.  But too many of these symphonies suffer from fairly middle-of-the-road-good-but-no-cigar performances.  I did enjoy The Sea Symphony which has a large-sounding and engaged choir and good soloists.  Generally Elder seems to favour pretty "safe" tempi neither too fast or too slow.  The Pastoral was OK but I think Brabbins' recent was better.  Apart from anything else the solo soprano simply sings too loud and with an oddly offputting fast vibrato.  No.4 was pretty good - again well played but doesn't grab you by the throat.  No.5 has a lovely ROmanza and disappointing passacaglia and No.6 just bottles it from an underwhelming 1st movement, boring scherzo and just dull finale...... (By the way for No.6 I assume you know Handley's 1st recording);

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81BaGR3peNL._SS500_.jpg)

the engineering is a bit harsh by modern standards but he really does attack the music.......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 04, 2022, 04:05:38 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 04, 2022, 02:58:58 AM
Sorry for the confusion, I have it a FLAC download and all the others as CDs. I looked at Amazon to see which symphonies Brabbins had recorded and obviously misread the webpage.

This is a second attempt at posting, hope it works this time.

Edit: The Elder/Halle album was featured on Radio 3 Record Review this morning and got a very favourable review from Andrew McGregor. He also described the complete Elder cycle as one of the best in recent years.
Interesting to know - I shall probably order it as its not much more expensive that the double CD featuring the Sinfonia Antartica and Symphony No.9.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 04, 2022, 04:10:57 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 04, 2022, 03:20:08 AM
I'm in the process of listening to the Elder cycle complete for the first time.  I was genuinely hoping to be more impressed than I have been so far (Nos.7-9 not yet heard).  I like a lot of what Elder has done with the Halle and he is an interesting person when you hear him talk about music.  But too many of these symphonies suffer from fairly middle-of-the-road-good-but-no-cigar performances.  I did enjoy The Sea Symphony which has a large-sounding and engaged choir and good soloists.  Generally Elder seems to favour pretty "safe" tempi neither too fast or too slow.  The Pastoral was OK but I think Brabbins' recent was better.  Apart from anything else the solo soprano simply sings too loud and with an oddly offputting fast vibrato.  No.4 was pretty good - again well played but doesn't grab you by the throat.  No.5 has a lovely ROmanza and disappointing passacaglia and No.6 just bottles it from an underwhelming 1st movement, boring scherzo and just dull finale...... (By the way for No.6 I assume you know Handley's 1st recording);

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81BaGR3peNL._SS500_.jpg)

the engineering is a bit harsh by modern standards but he really does attack the music.......
I like that double album which features the best version (out of two) of the Prelude and Fugue. I thought that Handley's LPO version of A London Symphony (1936 version) was better than the Liverpool version on CFP but that the opposite was the case with Symphony No.6 - In my opinion you only have to compare the turbulent opening of the LPO and Liverpool versions to see what I mean. The Liverpool recording has much greater impact.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2022, 06:01:41 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 04, 2022, 01:32:08 AMI have been collecting the Brabbins cycle at it was issued and while none of the issues were poor and I didn't find them outstanding. No 5 is due to be issued later this month and should be interesting given the stiff competition.

Brabbins already recorded the 5th and it was released in 2020. Could you be talking about the 6th? Also, I didn't see any announcement of this upcoming release. Could you provide a link where you found this announcement for this upcoming Brabbins recording?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 04, 2022, 06:12:04 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 04, 2022, 06:01:41 AM
Brabbins already recorded the 5th and it was released in 2020. Could you be talking about the 6th? Also, I didn't see any announcement of this upcoming release. Could you provide a link where you found this announcement for this upcoming Brabbins recording?

I have already corrected that error, see above. I haven't seen any announcement either, I found it as a future release on Amazon.co.uk.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2022, 06:14:30 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 04, 2022, 06:12:04 AM
I have already corrected that error, see above. I haven't seen any announcement either, I found it as a future release on Amazon.co.uk.

Again, a link please? I did a search for future releases under Vaughan Williams and found nothing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 04, 2022, 06:16:09 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 04, 2022, 06:01:41 AM
Brabbins already recorded the 5th and it was released in 2020. Could you be talking about the 6th? Also, I didn't see any announcement of this upcoming release. Could you provide a link where you found this announcement for this upcoming Brabbins recording?

there's no link but the latest Hyperion newsletter included in the "coming soon" section an image of Brabbins' Symphonies 6&8 and something else written/coupled on the cover that I can't decipher
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2022, 06:19:37 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 04, 2022, 06:16:09 AM
there's no link but the latest Hyperion newsletter included in the "coming soon" section an image of Brabbins' Symphonies 6&8 and something else written/coupled on the cover that I can't decipher

Ah okay, thanks. Interesting. Can't wait for this new recording. The 8th is one of my favorites from RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 04, 2022, 06:25:43 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 04, 2022, 06:14:30 AM
Again, a link please? I did a search for future releases under Vaughan Williams and found nothing.

I just checked again and it has now disappeared, I didn't imagine it even if I misread it. We will just have to wait, other contributors think it is on the way.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 04, 2022, 06:40:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 04, 2022, 04:10:57 AM
I like that double album which features the best version (out of two) of the Prelude and Fugue. I thought that Handley's LPO version of A London Symphony (1936 version) was better than the Liverpool version on CFP but that the opposite was the case with Symphony No.6 - In my opinion you only have to compare the turbulent opening of the LPO and Liverpool versions to see what I mean. The Liverpool recording has much greater impact.

I just dipped into the very beginning of Handley's RLPO No.6 you are quite right about the more impactful recording - but the spirit of the 2 versions is very similar (and better!) than Elder.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 04, 2022, 07:11:31 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 04, 2022, 06:40:53 AM
I just dipped into the very beginning of Handley's RLPO No.6 you are quite right about the more impactful recording - but the spirit of the 2 versions is very similar (and better!) than Elder.

Yes, I agree about No.2 although I marginally prefer the earlier (LPO) recording. Better is still is the Brabbins version of No.2 as he uses the 1920 version with the extended epilogue. Looking forward to the Brabbins versions of nos. 6 and 8.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2022, 07:31:13 AM
Count me as being underwhelmed by all of Handley's recordings of this composer. He was let down especially by the poor sonics in his EMI cycle. I also just didn't think he had much to say in composer's music. Handley does better in repertoire that is more unknown or hasn't been well-served on disc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 04, 2022, 08:08:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 04, 2022, 07:31:13 AM
Count me as being underwhelmed by all of Handley's recordings of this composer. He was let down especially by the poor sonics in his EMI cycle. I also just didn't think he had much to say in composer's music. Handley does better in repertoire that is more unknown or hasn't been well-served on disc.
I rather agree with you John, thinking of his fabulous recordings of the Rootham symphonies, for example, or those by Bantock, Clifford and Bainton.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: ritter on June 04, 2022, 08:31:18 AM
This might be of interest to fans of RVW (although I suspect many will already own all the recordings included in the set)

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0190296245374.jpg)
Announced at jpc for September 30th. Some details here (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/vaughan-williams-the-new-collection/hnum/10936918).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on June 04, 2022, 11:22:08 AM
Buy the box set and the kind, the stuff you've bought before a million times
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 04, 2022, 04:43:18 PM
Just listening to VW's 8th, and suddenly in the Cavatina movement the second subject made me think 'this sounds very much like Finzi, doesn't it?' (melody and harmony).

This is the thematic material a little way in, before the violin solo, which is recapitulated in the coda.

I wonder if VW was thinking of his friend GF when he wrote those passages.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2022, 08:10:57 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 04, 2022, 08:08:13 AM
I rather agree with you John, thinking of his fabulous recordings of the Rootham symphonies, for example, or those by Bantock, Clifford and Bainton.

I like his Bax, too, although I don't listen to Bax too often. :-\ But, yes, a BIG thumbs up for this Bantock. I also liked his recording of Bliss' A Colour Symphony. Beautiful.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2022, 08:13:56 PM
Quote from: ritter on June 04, 2022, 08:31:18 AM
This might be of interest to fans of RVW (although I suspect many will already own all the recordings included in the set)

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0190296245374.jpg)
Announced at jpc for September 30th. Some details here (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/vaughan-williams-the-new-collection/hnum/10936918).

I probably own 99.9% of its contents already, although I suspect our Jeffrey may be picking it up as kind of a memento for the composer's 150th Anniversary. If I can get it at a discounted price, I may pick it up as I do rather like these boxes that Warner have been doing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 05, 2022, 12:00:53 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 04, 2022, 08:13:56 PM
I probably own 99.9% of its contents already, although I suspect our Jeffrey may be picking it up as kind of a memento for the composer's 150th Anniversary. If I can get it at a discounted price, I may pick it up as I do rather like these boxes that Warner have been doing.
The 'New Collectors Edition' looks rather like the 'Old Collectors Edition!'  ;D

I have the Hickox/Davis box mainly for the recorded interviews but may give this one a miss. May just get the Elder 7 and 9, although the extract from No.9 broadcast yesterday didn't sound anything special to me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 05, 2022, 12:02:56 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 04, 2022, 02:58:58 AM
Sorry for the confusion, I have it a FLAC download and all the others as CDs. I looked at Amazon to see which symphonies Brabbins had recorded and obviously misread the webpage.

This is a second attempt at posting, hope it works this time.

Edit: The Elder/Halle album was featured on Radio 3 Record Review this morning and got a very favourable review from Andrew McGregor. He also described the complete Elder cycle as one of the best in recent years.
Thanks for the Elder alert. I listened to the relevant section on BBC Sounds yesterday with much interest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 05, 2022, 02:09:10 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 05, 2022, 12:02:56 AM
Thanks for the Elder alert. I listened to the relevant section on BBC Sounds yesterday with much interest.

My copy is arriving today and the Amazon price has dropped from £19.63 to £16.36.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 05, 2022, 06:02:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 05, 2022, 12:00:53 AM
The 'New Collectors Edition' looks rather like the 'Old Collectors Edition!'  ;D

I have the Hickox/Davis box mainly for the recorded interviews but may give this one a miss. May just get the Elder 7 and 9, although the extract from No.9 broadcast yesterday didn't sound anything special to me.

Ah, but the sleeve art might be rather attractive and you'll find yourself unable to resist. ;) I don't think I've seen a shot of this box set with all of its' contents.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on June 05, 2022, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 05, 2022, 12:00:53 AM
The 'New Collectors Edition' looks rather like the 'Old Collectors Edition!'  ;D

I have the Hickox/Davis box mainly for the recorded interviews but may give this one a miss. May just get the Elder 7 and 9, although the extract from No.9 broadcast yesterday didn't sound anything special to me.

I have the OG Collector's Edition
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51W8gKJW1KL._SY780_.jpg)
It seems from the performer names in the JPC listing, the new version has almost the same recordings. I suppose if the packaging is consistent with Warner's recent trends, I might get it. The OG set has paper sleeves...

I have 1 or 2 installments of Elder's cycle. They did not impress me.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on June 05, 2022, 03:50:50 PM
Earlier today I listened to the Menuhin/RPO recording of the 5th symphony that was discussed fairly recently in this thread. I liked it a lot. Very airy kind of performance which is fitting for that work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 05, 2022, 07:06:29 PM
The Hurwitz ripped apart Elder's RVW recently and this is an opinion of his I whole-heartedly share:

https://www.youtube.com/v/jrrABqNJBYE

I could do without his diatribes against the British press, which are well documented, but the general jest of what he's saying about Elder I certainly agree with, although as I mentioned many times already, I do like his performance of A Pastoral Symphony. Something that is frustrating about this new RVW Elder box set is there aren't any of the couplings that originally appeared on the individual releases found in this set. What the hell? Lazy record label.

The box set in question:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMyOTAwMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NTE4MzMzNjZ9)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 01:27:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 05, 2022, 07:06:29 PM
The Hurwitz ripped apart Elder's RVW recently and this is an opinion of his I whole-heartedly share:

https://www.youtube.com/v/jrrABqNJBYE

I could do without his diatribes against the British press, which are well documented, but the general jest of what he's saying about Elder I certainly agree with, although as I mentioned many times already, I do like his performance of A Pastoral Symphony. Something that is frustrating about this new RVW Elder box set is there aren't any of the couplings that originally appeared on the individual releases found in this set. What the hell? Lazy record label.

The box set in question:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMyOTAwMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NTE4MzMzNjZ9)

As ever it is not the general content of this kind of invective but the sneering manner of it "Elder is rubbish, the British press are biased fools" etc that absolutely riles me.  Also, when the Elder cycle might not be as good as some (let's ignore the holy sepulchre of St Leonard de Slatkin who must be worshipped on every occasion) neither is it as unrelentingly bad as Hurwitz proposes.  For that matter neither is Haitink.  His sweeping self-satisfied hatchet jobs on these and many other sets too often undermines the essential truths of some of his views.

A word about the lack of couplings.... actually I do not consider this "lazy record company" Just the reverse.  Lazy are the record companies who just slap the original discs in a slimline case and sometimes put the same booklet(s) in too. Here the Halle label have a new booklet with the orginal essays OK but some nice new pics.  The recouplings make for 5 well-filled reasonably priced discs.  Chandos did exactly the same with both their original Bax and RVW cycles with Bryden Thomson.  They then sensibly re-released the couplings on separate orchestral works discs - hopefully the Halle will do the same.  I think that is a fair solution and allows the collector to cherry-pick the repertoire they want.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 02:42:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 05, 2022, 07:06:29 PM
The Hurwitz ripped apart Elder's RVW recently and this is an opinion of his I whole-heartedly share:

https://www.youtube.com/v/jrrABqNJBYE

I could do without his diatribes against the British press, which are well documented, but the general jest of what he's saying about Elder I certainly agree with, although as I mentioned many times already, I do like his performance of A Pastoral Symphony. Something that is frustrating about this new RVW Elder box set is there aren't any of the couplings that originally appeared on the individual releases found in this set. What the hell? Lazy record label.

The box set in question:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMyOTAwMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NTE4MzMzNjZ9)
Thanks for posting this John,
I always find Hurwitz highly entertaining even when I don't agree with his views (I wonder what he makes of the Rozhdestvensky boxed set which, at least, fulfils the criteria of a non-British orchestra with a non-British conductor). One of the highlights of this online review for me was when he dropped the Elder box set on the floor - presumably in a gesture of disgust. Interesting that he praises Slatkin (my experience suggests that he has a point) and Davis, whose VW symphonies cycle, other than No.6 is generally poorly reviewed. I regard him as too harsh on Haitink (whose 'Sea Symphony' finally brought that work alive for me).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 02:45:23 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 01:27:56 AM
As ever it is not the general content of this kind of invective but the sneering manner of it "Elder is rubbish, the British press are biased fools" etc that absolutely riles me.  Also, when the Elder cycle might not be as good as some (let's ignore the holy sepulchre of St Leonard de Slatkin who must be worshipped on every occasion) neither is it as unrelentingly bad as Hurwitz proposes.  For that matter neither is Haitink.  His sweeping self-satisfied hatchet jobs on these and many other sets too often undermines the essential truths of some of his views.

A word about the lack of couplings.... actually I do not consider this "lazy record company" Just the reverse.  Lazy are the record companies who just slap the original discs in a slimline case and sometimes put the same booklet(s) in too. Here the Halle label have a new booklet with the orginal essays OK but some nice new pics.  The recouplings make for 5 well-filled reasonably priced discs.  Chandos did exactly the same with both their original Bax and RVW cycles with Bryden Thomson.  They then sensibly re-released the couplings on separate orchestral works discs - hopefully the Halle will do the same.  I think that is a fair solution and allows the collector to cherry-pick the repertoire they want.
I loved your 'St Leonard de Slatkin' comment. Yes, praise from me for the Thomson cycle as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2022, 05:55:27 AM
It seems that everyone has a list of Vaughan Williams that they claim are terrible or disappointing, and recordings I have greatly enjoyed keep coming up.

I've got Elder in my shopping cart, so there! :)

(Maybe I'll start with Job, seems like I am stocked mostly with recordings in archaic sound.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 06, 2022, 06:07:48 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 05, 2022, 03:50:50 PM
Earlier today I listened to the Menuhin/RPO recording of the 5th symphony that was discussed fairly recently in this thread. I liked it a lot. Very airy kind of performance which is fitting for that work.

Excellent!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on June 06, 2022, 06:08:06 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 01:27:56 AM
let's ignore the holy sepulchre of St Leonard de Slatkin who must be worshipped on every occasion)

Funny enough his beloved Slatkin set is out of print and not even available to stream.  That's how popular it is!  And the Haitink set that Hurwitz thinks is excrement is widely available and is highly rated by almost everyone that buys it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 06:26:21 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 01:27:56 AM
As ever it is not the general content of this kind of invective but the sneering manner of it "Elder is rubbish, the British press are biased fools" etc that absolutely riles me.  Also, when the Elder cycle might not be as good as some (let's ignore the holy sepulchre of St Leonard de Slatkin who must be worshipped on every occasion) neither is it as unrelentingly bad as Hurwitz proposes.  For that matter neither is Haitink.  His sweeping self-satisfied hatchet jobs on these and many other sets too often undermines the essential truths of some of his views.

A word about the lack of couplings.... actually I do not consider this "lazy record company" Just the reverse.  Lazy are the record companies who just slap the original discs in a slimline case and sometimes put the same booklet(s) in too. Here the Halle label have a new booklet with the orginal essays OK but some nice new pics.  The recouplings make for 5 well-filled reasonably priced discs.  Chandos did exactly the same with both their original Bax and RVW cycles with Bryden Thomson.  They then sensibly re-released the couplings on separate orchestral works discs - hopefully the Halle will do the same.  I think that is a fair solution and allows the collector to cherry-pick the repertoire they want.

As I mentioned, I don't care for his axe grindings against the British Press, Roger Norrington et. al. His Leonard Slatkin worship is also dully noted and I happily ignore him in this regard. He is Hurwitz's friend, so naturally, he's going to promote him whenever he gets the chance. But his point about Elder is a fair one and one I agree with. I didn't like any of the performances in his cycle with the exception of A Pastoral Symphony, although I haven't heard his newest recording of Sinfonia antartica, but I can't imagine it impressing me that much. Your point about the Elder box set is exactly my problem with it. I think it's nothing more than a money grab. They could've easily included two more CDs that had all the couplings, but, no, they're more content with squeezing money out of the perspective buyer --- in other words, they're no different than any other label in this regard.

In other news, I see there's a Tower Records/Warner Classics hybrid SACD release of the classic Adrian Boult cycle:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/d/w1600/pict/314016205119_/Adrian-Boult-Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-5-SACD-Hybrid.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 06:32:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 02:42:34 AM
Thanks for posting this John,
I always find Hurwitz highly entertaining even when I don't agree with his views (I wonder what he makes of the Rozhdestvensky boxed set which, at least, fulfils the criteria of a non-British orchestra with a non-British conductor). One of the highlights of this online review for me was when he dropped the Elder box set on the floor - presumably in a gesture of disgust. Interesting that he praises Slatkin (my experience suggests that he has a point) and Davis, whose VW symphonies cycle, other than No.6 is generally poorly reviewed. I regard him as too harsh on Haitink (whose 'Sea Symphony' finally brought that work alive for me).

He probably would rip Rozhdestvensky's cycle to shreds. ;) Not that I would care, because I generally don't care much about Hurwitz's opinion until in coincides with my own. ;) Slatkin's cycle is 'okay', it's not the bee's knees. It's interesting he hasn't mentioned Brabbins who I think is a finer conductor than Elder and in RVW, he certainly holds his own against some stiff competition. It's okay though as my favorite complete symphony cycles will forever be Boult on EMI (Warner), Previn on RCA and Thomson on Chandos. I never cared for Haitink and, while I don't agree with Hurwitz's take on this cycle, I don't view it as essential or an important addition to the RVW discography. But that's just my two measly cents.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 06:33:59 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 06, 2022, 06:08:06 AM
Funny enough his beloved Slatkin set is out of print and not even available to stream.  That's how popular it is!  And the Haitink set that Hurwitz thinks is excrement is widely available and is highly rated by almost everyone that buys it.

There is a certain paradox in bemoaning the fact that "only" British conductors and orchestras do this music in a British-centric "we know how to do this music" way but as soon as someone comes along with a different/individual appraoch - ie Haitink - that is dismissed as being appalling.  As if a conductor of Haitink's stature would ever do anything without carefully thinking it out.........!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 06:36:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 06:26:21 AM

In other news, I see there's a Tower Records/Warner Classics hybrid SACD release of the classic Adrian Boult cycle:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/d/w1600/pict/314016205119_/Adrian-Boult-Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-5-SACD-Hybrid.jpg)

Oh GOD!!!  Just when my bank manager had forgiven me............... (whisper it quietly...... how much and from where.........)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2022, 06:41:19 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 01:27:56 AM
As ever it is not the general content of this kind of invective but the sneering manner of it "Elder is rubbish, the British press are biased fools" etc that absolutely riles me.  Also, when the Elder cycle might not be as good as some (let's ignore the holy sepulchre of St Leonard de Slatkin who must be worshipped on every occasion) neither is it as unrelentingly bad as Hurwitz proposes.  For that matter neither is Haitink.  His sweeping self-satisfied hatchet jobs on these and many other sets too often undermines the essential truths of some of his views.

Best I can say is: bully for him that he's managed to monetize his rants ... even though part of me thinks this is not much distance (methodologically) from the pointy-headed right-wing disinformation junkies.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on June 06, 2022, 06:41:56 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2022, 05:55:27 AM
It seems that everyone has a list of Vaughan Williams that they claim are terrible or disappointing, and recordings I have greatly enjoyed keep coming up.

I've got Elder in my shopping cart, so there! :)

(Maybe I'll start with Job, seems like I am stocked mostly with recordings in archaic sound.)

I know the feeling. I seem to be the only person on GMG who likes Manze's cycle.

As for Job--my suggestion
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51fSR6uxt-L._SY780_.jpg)

Elder has done it (it's coupled with Songs of Travel, but I haven't heard it. I have two installments of Elder's cycle, but they didn't impress me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 06:56:17 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 06:36:14 AM
Oh GOD!!!  Just when my bank manager had forgiven me............... (whisper it quietly...... how much and from where.........)

Here's the product listing via Tower Records Japan:

https://tower.jp/item/5421418/%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A3%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A0%E3%82%BA%EF%BC%9A%E4%BA%A4%E9%9F%BF%E6%9B%B2%E5%85%A8%E9%9B%86%EF%BC%9C%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B3%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%EF%BC%9E (https://tower.jp/item/5421418/%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A3%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A0%E3%82%BA%EF%BC%9A%E4%BA%A4%E9%9F%BF%E6%9B%B2%E5%85%A8%E9%9B%86%EF%BC%9C%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B3%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%EF%BC%9E)

P.S. I just bought it for $116 (incl. shipping). ;) It has a newer remastering, too. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2022, 07:01:59 AM
Quote from: JBS on June 06, 2022, 06:41:56 AM
I know the feeling. I seem to be the only person on GMG who likes Manze's cycle.

As for Job--my suggestion
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51fSR6uxt-L._SY780_.jpg)

Elder has done it (it's coupled with Songs of Travel, but I haven't heard it. I have two installments of Elder's cycle, but they didn't impress me.

This is all too bad. I remember really liking Elder's Falstaff.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on June 06, 2022, 07:13:14 AM
Quote from: JBS on June 06, 2022, 06:41:56 AM
I know the feeling. I seem to be the only person on GMG who likes Manze's cycle.

I've recently started listening to Manze's recordings and I really like what I'm hearing... but that is two recordings so far.  I have so many listening projects that it will probably take my months to listen to the whole cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 07:18:05 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2022, 05:55:27 AM
It seems that everyone has a list of Vaughan Williams that they claim are terrible or disappointing, and recordings I have greatly enjoyed keep coming up.

I've got Elder in my shopping cart, so there! :)

(Maybe I'll start with Job, seems like I am stocked mostly with recordings in archaic sound.)
Job is excellent! Received it last Christmas.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 07:20:11 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 06:26:21 AM
As I mentioned, I don't care for his axe grindings against the British Press, Roger Norrington et. al. His Leonard Slatkin worship is also dully noted and I happily ignore him in this regard. He is Hurwitz's friend, so naturally, he's going to promote him whenever he gets the chance. But his point about Elder is a fair one and one I agree with. I didn't like any of the performances in his cycle with the exception of A Pastoral Symphony, although I haven't heard his newest recording of Sinfonia antartica, but I can't imagine it impressing me that much. Your point about the Elder box set is exactly my problem with it. I think it's nothing more than a money grab. They could've easily included two more CDs that had all the couplings, but, no, they're more content with squeezing money out of the perspective buyer --- in other words, they're no different than any other label in this regard.

In other news, I see there's a Tower Records/Warner Classics hybrid SACD release of the classic Adrian Boult cycle:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/d/w1600/pict/314016205119_/Adrian-Boult-Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-5-SACD-Hybrid.jpg)
Wow! I love the presentation - may have to order it  ;D >:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on June 06, 2022, 07:20:58 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 06, 2022, 07:01:59 AM
This is all too bad. I remember really liking Elder's Falstaff.

His Elgar recordings are superb.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 07:23:23 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 06:56:17 AM
Here's the product listing via Tower Records Japan:

https://tower.jp/item/5421418/%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A3%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A0%E3%82%BA%EF%BC%9A%E4%BA%A4%E9%9F%BF%E6%9B%B2%E5%85%A8%E9%9B%86%EF%BC%9C%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B3%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%EF%BC%9E (https://tower.jp/item/5421418/%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A3%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A0%E3%82%BA%EF%BC%9A%E4%BA%A4%E9%9F%BF%E6%9B%B2%E5%85%A8%E9%9B%86%EF%BC%9C%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B3%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%EF%BC%9E)

P.S. I just bought it for $116 (incl. shipping). ;) It has a newer remastering, too. 8)

aargh - £80 sterling plus postage - that looks fantastic but outside of my budget for now.  Let us know how it compares to the most recent(?) Warner mastering.  If you say much better I'll pretend I haven't heard you!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 07:23:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 07:20:11 AM
Wow! I love the presentation - may have to order it  ;D >:D

8) I have similar sets of Previn's Rachmaninov, Berglund's Sibelius (w/ Bournemouth) and Kempe's Strauss. I can tell you that the quality of these recordings and packaging is superb. I bought this Boult set because it has been newly remastered --- 2022. Definitely looking forward to hearing it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 07:32:15 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 07:23:23 AM
aargh - £80 sterling plus postage - that looks fantastic but outside of my budget for now.  Let us know how it compares to the most recent(?) Warner mastering.  If you say much better I'll pretend I haven't heard you!!

;) I'm not sure when the last remastering for Boult's RVW was, but this one was done this year. Yeah, it was an expensive box set, but since I've been impressed with the other Tower Records/Warner hybrid SACD sets I own, I'm hoping to be as impressed with it as I have been with the others I own.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2022, 07:54:04 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 07:18:05 AM
Job is excellent! Received it last Christmas.

I'm in!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 08:19:54 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 06, 2022, 06:41:19 AM
Best I can say is: bully for him that he's managed to monetize his rants ... even though part of me thinks this is not much distance (methodologically) from the pointy-headed right-wing disinformation junkies.

I have to say that whatever my concerns about his content and style he is just about the ONLY person out there regularly generating any kind of content about CM.  And this is clearly fostering interest/debate/concern/outrage....... As they always say there is no such thing as bad publicity and CM needs all the rasing of awareness it can get and if he can make a buck out of CM I'm glad someone can.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 08:28:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 07:23:55 AM
8) I have similar sets of Previn's Rachmaninov, Berglund's Sibelius (w/ Bournemouth) and Kempe's Strauss. I can tell you that the quality of these recordings and packaging is superb. I bought this Boult set because it has been newly remastered --- 2022. Definitely looking forward to hearing it!
You are a bad influence  8)
I have two of those Japanese releases (Symphony No.8 with the Concerto for Two Pianos and No.9 with the Fantasia on the Old 104th). The notes are all in Japanese - I wonder if that's the same in the new boxed set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 06, 2022, 08:34:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 08:28:34 AM
You are a bad influence  8)
I have two of those Japanese releases (Symphony No.8 with the Concerto for Two Pianos and No.9 with the Fantasia on the Old 104th). The notes are all in Japanese - I wonder if that's the same in the new boxed set.

Does this mean the symphonies are are available separately? I am only really interested in remastered versions of Nos 2, 3 & 5 from the Boult cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2022, 08:35:57 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 08:19:54 AM
I have to say that whatever my concerns about his content and style he is just about the ONLY person out there regularly generating any kind of content about CM.  And this is clearly fostering interest/debate/concern/outrage....... As they always say there is no such thing as bad publicity and CM needs all the rasing of awareness it can get and if he can make a buck out of CM I'm glad someone can.

Point well taken. Although part of me still cringes at the "the sweaty clown car is better than no wheels" thought.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2022, 08:38:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 08:28:34 AM
You are a bad influence  8)
I have two of those Japanese releases (Symphony No.8 with the Concerto for Two Pianos and No.9 with the Fantasia on the Old 104th). The notes are all in Japanese - I wonder if that's the same in the new boxed set.

I took Japanese classes for three years, which with so difficult a language means, I never got to be the least use in it. Apart from surprising some tourists in a London hotel by excusing myself in Japanese (in 1987, probably)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 08:58:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 08:28:34 AM
You are a bad influence  8)
I have two of those Japanese releases (Symphony No.8 with the Concerto for Two Pianos and No.9 with the Fantasia on the Old 104th). The notes are all in Japanese - I wonder if that's the same in the new boxed set.

I'm sure this will be the case, Jeffrey, but, trust me, the sonics more than make up for a lack of English texts. ;) I'm sure there will be some English notes, but mainly in regards to tracklisting, performers and recording information.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 09:22:18 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 08:58:38 AM
I'm sure this will be the case, Jeffrey, but, trust me, the sonics more than make up for a lack of English texts. ;) I'm sure there will be some English notes, but mainly in regards to tracklisting, performers and recording information.
OK thanks John.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on June 06, 2022, 09:48:22 AM
Quote from: JBS on June 06, 2022, 06:41:56 AM
I know the feeling. I seem to be the only person on GMG who likes Manze's cycle.

As for Job--my suggestion
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51fSR6uxt-L._SY780_.jpg)

Elder has done it (it's coupled with Songs of Travel, but I haven't heard it. I have two installments of Elder's cycle, but they didn't impress me.

Yeah, the Manze cycle works fine for me. Happy to restate my appreciation for the Elder too, while recognising that other cycles are stronger. Give me Hickox/Davis as well, or Kees Bakels. Bryden Thomson.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on June 06, 2022, 10:37:17 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 06, 2022, 09:48:22 AM
Yeah, the Manze cycle works fine for me. Happy to restate my appreciation for the Elder too, while recognising that other cycles are stronger. Give me Hickox/Davis as well, or Kees Bakels. Bryden Thomson.

So I'm not alone! 8)

I just got the Bakels/Daniels, but not yet listened to it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on June 06, 2022, 11:04:43 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 06:26:21 AM

...In other news, I see there's a Tower Records/Warner Classics hybrid SACD release of the classic Adrian Boult cycle:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/d/w1600/pict/314016205119_/Adrian-Boult-Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-5-SACD-Hybrid.jpg)

Oh boy.

As it happens, I've never owned the Boult cycle, and have been impressed with the few Japanese specialty recordings I've purchased. So this is the perfect trap, my wallet will never escape.

Somewhere, a marketing hack at Warner is twirling his mustache and snickering.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2022, 11:05:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 08:28:34 AM
You are a bad influence  8)
I have two of those Japanese releases (Symphony No.8 with the Concerto for Two Pianos and No.9 with the Fantasia on the Old 104th). The notes are all in Japanese - I wonder if that's the same in the new boxed set.

All of the CD releases of the Boult/RVW symphonies are 1989 or 1991, so a new master has the potential to be a noticeable improvement. Hopefully the new transfers will end up available for hirez download so it won't be necessary to buy the obscenely overpriced fetish Japanese release.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 11:08:34 AM
Quote from: LKB on June 06, 2022, 11:04:43 AM
Oh boy.

As it happens, I've never owned the Boult cycle, and have been impressed with the few Japanese specialty recordings I've purchased. So this is the perfect trap, my wallet will never escape.

Somewhere, a marketing hack at Warner is twirling his mustache and snickering.

;) ;D I think Boult's RVW cycle on Warner is one of the best and I think you will also be impressed with the performances.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on June 06, 2022, 11:16:09 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 11:08:34 AM
;) ;D I think Boult's RVW cycle on Warner is one of the best and I think you will also be impressed with the performances.

To clarify, I've owned Boult's recordings of Symphonies 1 & 2 for decades, but l've never heard the rest of his cycle. And I'm a BIG fan of SACDs as well.

So yeah... trapped.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 11:34:15 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2022, 11:05:16 AM
All of the CD releases of the Boult/RVW symphonies are 1989 or 1991, so a new master has the potential to be a noticeable improvement. Hopefully the new transfers will end up available for hirez download so it won't be necessary to buy the obscenely overpriced fetish Japanese release.

C'mon who can resist a good fetish!!!!!!!  >:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 11:37:38 AM
Quote from: LKB on June 06, 2022, 11:16:09 AM
To clarify, I've owned Boult's recordings of Symphonies 1 & 2 for decades, but l've never heard the rest of his cycle. And I'm a BIG fan of SACDs as well.

So yeah... trapped.  :laugh:

:P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 11:47:36 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2022, 11:05:16 AM
All of the CD releases of the Boult/RVW symphonies are 1989 or 1991, so a new master has the potential to be a noticeable improvement. Hopefully the new transfers will end up available for hirez download so it won't be necessary to buy the obscenely overpriced fetish Japanese release.

I seriously doubt this newly remastered Boult set will be available any other way. I've never seen these Tower Records/Warner Japan releases available for download. I'm glad I bought the set and it wasn't "obscenely overpriced" since 1. the recordings receive a completely new remastering, which isn't something that can be done successfully by anyone, especially since not everyone will have access to the original analog tapes like Kousuke Fujino did and 2. the materials that are made for these box sets are amazingly durable --- if you don't own one of these Tower Records/Warner SACD sets, then you clearly don't know their worth. I believe the set to be worth what I paid for it (it's actually going for a higher price from Japanese sellers on eBay for example), but it's not about the money as much as it is about the quality of the remaster and from what I've heard from this source, I have been hugely satisfied.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on June 06, 2022, 12:16:36 PM
Mirror Image, I panicked for a moment when I saw your profile pic changed to commemorate the RVW anniversary. For a moment I thought "is today the day?" and had I missed it? Wikipedia says October 12th so quite some time to go yet.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 01:21:16 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 06, 2022, 12:16:36 PM
Mirror Image, I panicked for a moment when I saw your profile pic changed to commemorate the RVW anniversary. For a moment I thought "is today the day?" and had I missed it? Wikipedia says October 12th so quite some time to go yet.

No need to panic. ;) His birthday isn't until October, but the celebration will be all year long as it should be. :) It will actually give me an excuse to listen to some works of his that I don't know well at all like the operas The Poisoned Kiss and Sir John in Love for example. RVW's operatic output doesn't get discussed a lot aside from perhaps The Pilgrims' Progress and maybe Riders to the Sea (an absolute masterpiece, IMHO).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 01:56:22 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 01:21:16 PM
No need to panic. ;) His birthday isn't until October, but the celebration will be all year long as it should be. :) It will actually give me an excuse to listen to some works of his that I don't know well at all like the operas The Poisoned Kiss and Sir John in Love for example. RVW's operatic output doesn't get discussed a lot aside from perhaps The Pilgrims' Progress and maybe Riders to the Sea (an absolute masterpiece, IMHO).

re the operas - yes absolutely Riders to the Sea is 100% genius and Pilgrim's Progress deeply sincere with much fantastic music but whether its totally viable as a piece of staged theatre I'm not so sure (but I didn't see the highly praised versions at the RNCM etc).  Hugh the Drover doesn't really do it for me - just all a bit too twee English Rural Idyll - Edward German but done better.  The Poisoned Kiss I have the discs but frankly don't know at all well... perhaps I should relisten.  Sir John in Love I find good in parts but again not that compelling.....  And this from someone for whom opera is possibly the ultimate musical form when done at its best....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 02:02:01 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 01:56:22 PM
re the operas - yes absolutely Riders to the Sea is 100% genius and Pilgrim's Progress deeply sincere with much fantastic music but whether its totally viable as a piece of staged theatre I'm not so sure (but I didn't see the highly praised versions at the RNCM etc).  Hugh the Drover doesn't really do it for me - just all a bit too twee English Rural Idyll - Edward German but done better.  The Poisoned Kiss I have the discs but frankly don't know at all well... perhaps I should relisten.  Sir John in Love I find good in parts but again not that compelling.....  And this from someone for whom opera is possibly the ultimate musical form when done at its best....

Interesting. It looks like you and I are in agreement about the operas. :) I recall not really enjoying Hugh the Drover too much and Sir John in Love was 'okay', but just not too memorable. It looks like I'll stick with The Pilgrim's Progess and Riders to the Sea if I want to hear RVW at his operatic best. Like you, I need to revisit The Poisoned Kiss, but it wouldn't hurt for me to go back and listen to Sir John in Love as it's been too long for me.

Here's perhaps a rather difficult question for you and others, what are your 'Top 5' favorite RVW recordings?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 02:02:01 PM
Interesting. It looks like you and I are in agreement about the operas. :) I recall not really enjoying Hugh the Drover too much and Sir John in Love was 'okay', but just not too memorable. It looks like I'll stick with The Pilgrim's Progess and Riders to the Sea if I want to hear RVW at his operatic best. Like you, I need to revisit The Poisoned Kiss, but it wouldn't hurt for me to go back and listen to Sir John in Love as it's been too long for me.

Here's perhaps a rather difficult question for you and others, what are your 'Top 5' favorite RVW recordings?

Ask me again tomorrow and you'll get a different list(!) but for now - not in any order;

Phantasy Quintet - Music Group of London
On Wenlock Edge - Ian Partridge
Tallis Fantasia (Davis - BBC SO - BBC Music Mag cover disc recorded in Gloucester Cathedral)
Symphony No.5 (Previn/LSO)
Mass in G minor (Matthew Best /Corydon Singers - probably not the "best" version - pardon the pun - but the version that opened the gates of wonder for me)


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2022, 03:42:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 11:47:36 AM
I seriously doubt this newly remastered Boult set will be available any other way. I've never seen these Tower Records/Warner Japan releases available for download. I'm glad I bought the set and it wasn't "obscenely overpriced" since 1. the recordings receive a completely new remastering, which isn't something that can be done successfully by anyone, especially since not everyone will have access to the original analog tapes like Kousuke Fujino did and 2. the materials that are made for these box sets are amazingly durable --- if you don't own one of these Tower Records/Warner SACD sets, then you clearly don't know their worth. I believe the set to be worth what I paid for it (it's actually going for a higher price from Japanese sellers on eBay for example), but it's not about the money as much as it is about the quality of the remaster and from what I've heard from this source, I have been hugely satisfied.

If it is true that they will not distribute the remastered content any other way, it is a shame. Why take those fragile tapes out of storage at Abbey Road and run them to distribute the result so narrowly? They could make so much more money with a wider release. When DG released Karajan's Bruckner cycle on SACD to much fanfare the hi-rez digital downloads appeared at Presto Classical (and I assume other distributers). People who care about packaging could get them, and people like me that only care about the audio could get them cheap.

In any case, it would be worth it to me to pay a modest amount to get a better master with a smoother sound (1987 ADCs had limitations), but we are talking about 1967 recordings and I it's not worth it to me to hear tape hiss and analog saturation in ultra-high resolution.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 04:42:39 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2022, 03:42:39 PM
If it is true that they will not distribute the remastered content any other way, it is a shame. Why take those fragile tapes out of storage at Abbey Road and run them to distribute the result so narrowly? They could make so much more money with a wider release. When DG released Karajan's Bruckner cycle on SACD to much fanfare the hi-rez digital downloads appeared at Presto Classical (and I assume other distributers). People who care about packaging could get them, and people like me that only care about the audio could get them cheap.

In any case, it would be worth it to me to pay a modest amount to get a better master with a smoother sound (1987 ADCs had limitations), but we are talking about 1967 recordings and I it's not worth it to me to hear tape hiss and analog saturation in ultra-high resolution.

This is where we definitely diverge in our viewpoints. For me, music is about much more than simply listening. It's a whole experience. If a box set looks attractive and is well-done with it's presentation, then I'm already halfway interested, but if the fidelity of the recordings are also of desirable quality than I'll probably buy it if I want it. If it is value added to my collection and brings me happiness in more ways than one, then I consider it a win/win. I guess I just value the physical product more than you do and lately I've been listening on my stereo and let me tell you, I've been enriched by the experience. Anyway, I'm grateful for my free time and I realize that none of these material things will go with me after I'm gone, but this doesn't mean I have to look at a sound file and accept it as being a part of my own experience with music. Fuck that. I've got my own streaming service on my computer that came from my own collection if I want to play something at my desk with headphones on or through my desktop soundbar.

I brought this RVW Boult set to people's attention, because I knew some members here would be interested and, as you read, some members are considering the set. That's enough for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 04:44:49 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 02:16:07 PM
Ask me again tomorrow and you'll get a different list(!) but for now - not in any order;

Phantasy Quintet - Music Group of London
On Wenlock Edge - Ian Partridge
Tallis Fantasia (Davis - BBC SO - BBC Music Mag cover disc recorded in Gloucester Cathedral)
Symphony No.5 (Previn/LSO)
Mass in G minor (Matthew Best /Corydon Singers - probably not the "best" version - pardon the pun - but the version that opened the gates of wonder for me)

Nice list! I don't think I've heard nor own Partridge in On Wenlock Edge, so I may have to go look for this recording. That Previn recording of the 5th will definitely make it to my own list when I get around to assembling it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 05:09:57 PM
Here's an attempt at an RVW favorite recordings list --- (in no particular order):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61E2CfCD4IL.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81ezSB8rfxL._SL1365_.jpg)

(https://i.discogs.com/6ZBBI7VSHXRofEnlJVubjix2X39Y47qrwAgldvSRuxs/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:596/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTMzNjk2/OTktMTMyNzY4OTA0/NC5qcGVn.jpeg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51r1sfS+tzL.jpg)

(https://i.discogs.com/WOShAUMmVgnkbrmns8IuDb7xXJBiH8eU8hxUFhv8rkE/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:595/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE5Mzg2/NDAzLTE2MjU0OTA2/ODYtODQ2Ny5qcGVn.jpeg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on June 06, 2022, 06:01:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 04:44:49 PM
Nice list! I don't think I've heard nor own Partridge in On Wenlock Edge, so I may have to go look for this recording. That Previn recording of the 5th will definitely make it to my own list when I get around to assembling it.

MI, you should most certainly obtain Partridge et. al. performing On Wenlock Edge. It has some exquisite singing, as well as wonderfully evocative playing on offer. As far as sound quality, the LP was impressive and the first CD release was more than acceptable ( I've not heard any subsequent CD releases ).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 06:27:12 PM
Quote from: LKB on June 06, 2022, 06:01:27 PM
MI, you should most certainly obtain Partridge et. al. performing On Wenlock Edge. It has some exquisite singing, as well as wonderfully evocative playing on offer. As far as sound quality, the LP was impressive and the first CD release was more than acceptable ( I've not heard any subsequent CD releases ).

Well, that makes two endorsements for this recording. I'm sold! :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on June 06, 2022, 06:32:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 06:27:12 PM
Well, that makes two endorsements for this recording. I'm sold! :)
You won't regret it, I promise.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 06:40:13 PM
Quote from: LKB on June 06, 2022, 06:32:33 PM
You won't regret it, I promise.  8)

I love On Wenlock Edge and I'm sure I've heard Ian Partridge's voice before. I'm sure I won't have any objections. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2022, 08:30:20 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 04:42:39 PM
This is where we definitely diverge in our viewpoints. For me, music is about much more than simply listening. It's a whole experience. If a box set looks attractive and is well-done with it's presentation, then I'm already halfway interested, but if the fidelity of the recordings are also of desirable quality than I'll probably buy it if I want it. If it is value added to my collection and brings me happiness in more ways than one, then I consider it a win/win. I guess I just value the physical product more than you do and lately I've been listening on my stereo and let me tell you, I've been enriched by the experience. Anyway, I'm grateful for my free time and I realize that none of these material things will go with me after I'm gone, but this doesn't mean I have to look at a sound file and accept it as being a part of my own experience with music. Fuck that. I've got my own streaming service on my computer that came from my own collection if I want to play something at my desk with headphones on or through my desktop soundbar.

Certainly you can buy physical media if you are attracted to packaging. But I don't know why you associate "physical product" with playing though your stereo and files on your computer playing through a desktop sound bar. If I insert a disc into my Marantz SACD player, or stream a FLAC file I ripped from the same disc to the same SACD player (which can function as a DAC) or stream a FLAC file obtained directly from the record label to the SACD player it is the same audio data being reproduced and the exact same experience, whether I am using my amp and speakers, or my dedicated headphone amp and my Beyerdynamic headphones. For me only the music matters and downloads offer the advantage of more convenience and less plastic and other waste going into landfills and polluting the world.

I also don't know why you feel you must use profanities when someone has different preferences than you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 09:01:19 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2022, 08:30:20 PM
Certainly you can buy physical media if you are attracted to packaging. But I don't know why you associate "physical product" with playing though your stereo and files on your computer playing through a desktop sound bar. If I insert a disc into my Marantz SACD player, or stream a FLAC file I ripped from the same disc to the same SACD player (which can function as a DAC) or stream a FLAC file obtained directly from the record label to the SACD player it is the same audio data being reproduced and the exact same experience, whether I am using my amp and speakers, or my dedicated headphone amp and my Beyerdynamic headphones. For me only the music matters and downloads offer the advantage of more convenience and less plastic and other waste going into landfills and polluting the world.

I also don't know why you feel you must use profanities when someone has different preferences than you.

My point is that buying a CD box set, in this case the RVW Boult, isn't just about playing the CD back on the computer or stereo, it's about owning something that I feel is an important part of recorded history and that's important to me for sentimental reasons. The first time I heard Vaughan Williams, it was this Boult set. I had tears in my eyes from the listening experience, it changed me. I then read the liner notes and read as much as I could about the composer online. I looked at pictures of the composer, read his timeline, looked at his oeuvre, etc. I get an emotional response from not only the music itself, but I feel that I'm a part of something special by holding the box set in my hands and looking at photos of the composer or reading the liner notes in the booklet. This is what digital downloads or streaming can't emulate --- the tangible aspect of the physical product, but also the notion that you have a piece of recorded history at your fingertips. It's the same thing with people and books. Many readers prefer to hold a book in their hands. They could easily buy an e-book and read it on their tablet or whatever, but it's just not the same thing. I feel this way about buying CDs and box sets and I don't ever see this changing as long as I'm fortunate enough to have the collection I own right now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 11:04:58 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 06, 2022, 11:05:16 AM
All of the CD releases of the Boult/RVW symphonies are 1989 or 1991, so a new master has the potential to be a noticeable improvement. Hopefully the new transfers will end up available for hirez download so it won't be necessary to buy the obscenely overpriced fetish Japanese release.
Thank you Arthur. I'm hoping that this fabulously presented set will become available in the UK although this is probably wishful thinking. It was a fabulous set. The earlier Boult Decca set (made with VW in attendance) has a special urgency and intensity although Boult's later EMI set (which I grew up with on LP) has a more reflective ambience and is equally valid. I really like symphonies 2, 4, 7 and 9 in the EMI set although the others are all very good (6 was selected as the top choice in '1000 CDs you need to hear before you Die') I prefer the Decca No.6 but they are all fine too. Previn is my top choice for 2 (1936), 3,5 and 8.
PS I agree with RS about this recording of Wenlock Edge - this CD is also v strongly recommended as it features an unrivalled performance of Warlock's masterpiece 'The Curlew'. I could live without the '10 Blake Songs' - 5 would have been enough for me!
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 11:16:05 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 06:40:13 PM
I love On Wenlock Edge and I'm sure I've heard Ian Partridge's voice before. I'm sure I won't have any objections. :)

Ian Partridge sings the VERY short tenor solo on the recording of Sancta Civitas that was one of your 5 chosen discs above.  I only ever worked with him once - quite late in his career.  He was singing The Evangelist in the St. John - absolutely gorgeous - expressive and unforced.  Actually if you ever see his name on anything you can be pretty sure it will be good!  I think he is on those old Baccholian Singers recordings of Holst part songs etc.  His Warlock "The Curlew" is exceptionally fine too.  One of his lesser known recordings but he has an ideal voice for the work is his Britten Serenade for Tenor Horn and Strings.  This is a great version with the wonderful Nicholas Busch on horn.  Its hidden on this (unpromising looking) pair of discs;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/GBMAAOSw-elfJC6z/s-l400.jpg)

currently on UK Amazon for 95p!! (+P&P)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 11:25:23 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 09:01:19 PM
My point is that buying a CD box set, in this case the RVW Boult, isn't just about playing the CD back on the computer or stereo, it's about owning something that I feel is an important part of recorded history and that's important to me for sentimental reasons. The first time I heard Vaughan Williams, it was this Boult set. I had tears in my eyes from the listening experience, it changed me. I then read the liner notes and read as much as I could about the composer online. I looked at pictures of the composer, read his timeline, looked at his oeuvre, etc. I get an emotional response from not only the music itself, but I feel that I'm a part of something special by holding the box set in my hands and looking at photos of the composer or reading the liner notes in the booklet. This is what digital downloads or streaming can't emulate --- the tangible aspect of the physical product, but also the notion that you have a piece of recorded history at your fingertips. It's the same thing with people and books. Many readers prefer to hold a book in their hands. They could easily buy an e-book and read it on their tablet or whatever, but it's just not the same thing. I feel this way about buying CDs and box sets and I don't ever see this changing as long as I'm fortunate enough to have the collection I own right now.

Yup - what you've written could be me exactly!  Rationally I know that the "data" might be the same from a CD or a high res download/stream but give me physical product every time.  Also, I just love old books and sheet music.  I get a buzz just holding them - of course the content can be easily sourced via a tablet or online but my emotional rsponse is almost zero then.  But each to their own and if it brings you happiness - good for you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 11:44:08 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 11:16:05 PM
Ian Partridge sings the VERY short tenor solo on the recording of Sancta Civitas that was one of your 5 chosen discs above.  I only ever worked with him once - quite late in his career.  He was singing The Evangelist in the St. John - absolutely gorgeous - expressive and unforced.  Actually if you ever see his name on anything you can be pretty sure it will be good!  I think he is on those old Baccholian Singers recordings of Holst part songs etc.  His Warlock "The Curlew" is exceptionally fine too.  One of his lesser known recordings but he has an ideal voice for the work is his Britten Serenade for Tenor Horn and Strings.  This is a great version with the wonderful Nicholas Busch on horn.  Its hidden on this (unpromising looking) pair of discs;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/GBMAAOSw-elfJC6z/s-l400.jpg)

currently on UK Amazon for 95p!! (+P&P)
I like that (unpromising looking set) not least for the fine CFP performance of Tippett's Concerto for Double String Orchestra as well as the VW  Prelude and Fugue + Tallis Fantasia.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 11:55:23 PM
Here are a few of my favourite VW recordings:
A big plug here for the beautiful 'Epithalamion'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 11:56:07 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 11:55:23 PM
Here are a few of my favourite VW recordings:
(http://[img][img])[/img][/img]

excellent choices all!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 11:59:18 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 11:56:07 PM
excellent choices all!
Thank you!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 07, 2022, 04:08:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 09:01:19 PM
My point is that buying a CD box set, in this case the RVW Boult, isn't just about playing the CD back on the computer or stereo, it's about owning something that I feel is an important part of recorded history and that's important to me for sentimental reasons. The first time I heard Vaughan Williams, it was this Boult set. I had tears in my eyes from the listening experience, it changed me. I then read the liner notes and read as much as I could about the composer online. I looked at pictures of the composer, read his timeline, looked at his oeuvre, etc. I get an emotional response from not only the music itself, but I feel that I'm a part of something special by holding the box set in my hands and looking at photos of the composer or reading the liner notes in the booklet. This is what digital downloads or streaming can't emulate --- the tangible aspect of the physical product, but also the notion that you have a piece of recorded history at your fingertips. It's the same thing with people and books. Many readers prefer to hold a book in their hands. They could easily buy an e-book and read it on their tablet or whatever, but it's just not the same thing. I feel this way about buying CDs and box sets and I don't ever see this changing as long as I'm fortunate enough to have the collection I own right now.

If I seemed to denigrate your preferences for music format I apologize. I guess I can relate in a few instances. I do like having the DG Karajan 60s, 70s, 80s editions on my shelves because the original jackets reflect some of the first LPs I ever purchased back when I started collecting (the LPs are long gone). I keep them around even though I listen to the actual recordings via the FLAC files I ripped from them and I search through scanned images of the jackets when I want to find something. Similar considerations for a few favorite novels which I still have on the shelves, even though if I re-read them it is in kindle editions. If I had to restrict myself to physical media I would have to severely restrict my reading and listening choices, so I learned I had no choice but the leave sentimental considerations behind.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2022, 04:50:24 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 06, 2022, 09:01:19 PM
My point is that buying a CD box set, in this case the RVW Boult, isn't just about playing the CD back on the computer or stereo, it's about owning something that I feel is an important part of recorded history and that's important to me for sentimental reasons. The first time I heard Vaughan Williams, it was this Boult set. I had tears in my eyes from the listening experience, it changed me. I then read the liner notes and read as much as I could about the composer online. I looked at pictures of the composer, read his timeline, looked at his oeuvre, etc. I get an emotional response from not only the music itself, but I feel that I'm a part of something special by holding the box set in my hands and looking at photos of the composer or reading the liner notes in the booklet. This is what digital downloads or streaming can't emulate --- the tangible aspect of the physical product, but also the notion that you have a piece of recorded history at your fingertips. It's the same thing with people and books. Many readers prefer to hold a book in their hands. They could easily buy an e-book and read it on their tablet or whatever, but it's just not the same thing. I feel this way about buying CDs and box sets and I don't ever see this changing as long as I'm fortunate enough to have the collection I own right now.
This is very much my experience as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 06:19:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2022, 11:55:23 PM
Here are a few of my favourite VW recordings:
A big plug here for the beautiful 'Epithalamion'.

All wonderful recordings, Jeffrey. I know and have heard them all. I think I still prefer the 1920 version of A London Symphony, but this Hickox is quite good (probably his best RVW symphony recording truth be told). Epithalamion is a work that just doesn't get discussed that much and I think this is quite a shame. I'd love to hear a new recording of it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 06:29:28 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 07, 2022, 04:08:17 AM
If I seemed to denigrate your preferences for music format I apologize. I guess I can relate in a few instances. I do like having the DG Karajan 60s, 70s, 80s editions on my shelves because the original jackets reflect some of the first LPs I ever purchased back when I started collecting (the LPs are long gone). I keep them around even though I listen to the actual recordings via the FLAC files I ripped from them and I search through scanned images of the jackets when I want to find something. Similar considerations for a few favorite novels which I still have on the shelves, even though if I re-read them it is in kindle editions. If I had to restrict myself to physical media I would have to severely restrict my reading and listening choices, so I learned I had no choice but the leave sentimental considerations behind.

Those Karajan box sets look great! Oh and don't worry about it, Arthur. We all have our own preferences and reasons for doing the things we do. Many people probably think I'm insane for buying CDs, but that's okay. In reality, I probably should've stopped buying CDs around 2015 as I believe this was when I had collected the bulk of my current classical collection. I understand the reasons to why you and so many others prefer digital downloads and streaming. Many people live in apartments, condos, etc. or have families where they simply don't have the space for a CD collection or in many cases even a book collection. The majority of my CDs and box sets are in storage boxes down in our basement. At some point, with help, I'm going to get around to cleaning out the basement and have shelves built that will house my entire CD/DVD/Blu-Ray collections. Every time I attempt doing this, I end up quitting because it's such a major undertaking.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 06:30:46 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 11:25:23 PM
Yup - what you've written could be me exactly!  Rationally I know that the "data" might be the same from a CD or a high res download/stream but give me physical product every time.  Also, I just love old books and sheet music.  I get a buzz just holding them - of course the content can be easily sourced via a tablet or online but my emotional response is almost zero then.  But each to their own and if it brings you happiness - good for you.

It looks like you, Jeffrey and I are brothers from different mothers. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 06:32:51 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 06, 2022, 11:16:05 PM
Ian Partridge sings the VERY short tenor solo on the recording of Sancta Civitas that was one of your 5 chosen discs above.  I only ever worked with him once - quite late in his career.  He was singing The Evangelist in the St. John - absolutely gorgeous - expressive and unforced.  Actually if you ever see his name on anything you can be pretty sure it will be good!  I think he is on those old Baccholian Singers recordings of Holst part songs etc.  His Warlock "The Curlew" is exceptionally fine too.  One of his lesser known recordings but he has an ideal voice for the work is his Britten Serenade for Tenor Horn and Strings.  This is a great version with the wonderful Nicholas Busch on horn.  Its hidden on this (unpromising looking) pair of discs;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/GBMAAOSw-elfJC6z/s-l400.jpg)

currently on UK Amazon for 95p!! (+P&P)

Thanks for the recommendation, RS. I'll have to look into this 2-CD set. It shouldn't be too difficult to find. That is an interesting anecdote about you working with Ian Partridge.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 07, 2022, 09:18:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 06:30:46 AM
It looks like you, Jeffrey and I are brothers from different mothers. ;)

Clearly separated at birth (which is a bit odd given that I think I am decades older than you!!!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 10:14:29 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 07, 2022, 09:18:31 AM
Clearly separated at birth (which is a bit odd given that I think I am decades older than you!!!)

Yeah, I'm youngster --- only 40 yrs. old. My soul, however, belongs to an older generation for sure.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on June 07, 2022, 10:39:52 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 10:14:29 AM
Yeah, I'm youngster --- only 40 yrs. old. My soul, however, belongs to an older generation for sure.

40? Hell, I'd give everything Todd owns to be 40 again...  >:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: LKB on June 07, 2022, 10:39:52 AM
40? Hell, I'd give everything Todd owns to be 40 again...  >:D

:P
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 07, 2022, 12:28:32 PM
Quote from: LKB on June 07, 2022, 10:39:52 AM
40? Hell, I'd give everything Todd owns to be 40 again...  >:D

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on June 07, 2022, 12:58:50 PM
MI, Boult is my favorite set.  You'll have to let us know if this new remaster really does have better SQ.  I will buy it if it does, else I won't.

btw in defense of ebooks last year I reread Count of Monte Cristo and it was so thick and heavy that it physically hurt to read.  I switched to ebook and then started flying through the book.  Also, until I got progressive lenses the adjustable font size also kept me reading.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 02:48:55 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 07, 2022, 12:58:50 PM
MI, Boult is my favorite set.  You'll have to let us know if this new remaster really does have better SQ.  I will buy it if it does, else I won't.

btw in defense of ebooks last year I reread Count of Monte Cristo and it was so thick and heavy that it physically hurt to read.  I switched to ebook and then started flying through the book.  Also, until I got progressive lenses the adjustable font size also kept me reading.

I'll definitely let you and everyone else know for sure, Dave. That's a fair point about those heavy-duty literary works that over a thousand pages long.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on June 07, 2022, 02:53:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 02:48:55 PM
I'll definitely let you and everyone else know for sure, Dave. That's a fair point about those heavy-duty literary works that over a thousand pages long.

I used to have a hardback edition of War and Peace that split it into three easy to hold volumes.  You rarely find that with those big chunkers!  Which is too bad.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 02:54:35 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 07, 2022, 02:53:38 PM
I used to have a hardback edition of War and Peace that split it into three easy to hold volumes.  You rarely find that with those big chunkers!  Which is too bad.

Oh yes, indeed. That would be a lot of easier to hold. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2022, 09:47:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 06:30:46 AM
It looks like you, Jeffrey and I are brothers from different mothers. ;)
Haha - Indeed    ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 08, 2022, 07:02:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 07, 2022, 09:47:56 PM
Haha - Indeed    ;)

There is a joke there somewhere I am sure. :D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 08, 2022, 09:51:45 PM
Review of the Goossens version of A London Symphony (1920). It first alerted me to the wonderful music which the composer excised in 1936.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Jun/Goossens-v1-PASC654.htm
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 09, 2022, 01:13:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 08, 2022, 09:51:45 PM
Review of the Goossens version of A London Symphony (1920). It first alerted me to the wonderful music which the composer excised in 1936.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Jun/Goossens-v1-PASC654.htm


One of my sheet music/scores Holy Grails is to find a copy of the 1920 Carnegie Collection score of A London Symphony

(https://www.momh.org.uk/media/dyn-images/main-lrg-300.jpg)

Frustratingly Stainer and Bell who took over the physical publication of this score for the final revision used the same Carnegie cover but with a little printed amendation in the top right corner saying "1934 revision" (or whatever the date was....)

On a tangent this collection of published pieces was perceived as being of the finest music but much of it is now forgotten.  For an enterprising recording company that might be a good project (well, you can but dream....)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Houndsofheaven.png)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Northumbrian_Hills_Whittaker_1922.png/220px-Northumbrian_Hills_Whittaker_1922.png)(https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/ripleyauctions/05/692405/H0071-L240555413.JPG)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTJi-bd73YZzDfWJKSoQJErp-I5VnD1Yx4Aw&usqp=CAUhttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTJi-bd73YZzDfWJKSoQJErp-I5VnD1Yx4Aw&usqp=CAU)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLk6HkN_bOxD39VB_f76D-Fwdvji2ucM1j76w3T7_0Xy1YGDwKi_UOdC-xY1pGqMezCE4&usqp=CAU)(https://www.byersmusic.com/resources/Norman%20Hay%20string%20quartet.jpg)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQC0NKSWUAIka1J?format=jpg&name=large)

there's a Harry Farjeon big choral mass I can't find an image of here which looks fascinating too ......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 09, 2022, 03:09:02 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 09, 2022, 01:13:52 AM
One of my sheet music/scores Holy Grails is to find a copy of the 1920 Carnegie Collection score of A London Symphony

(https://www.momh.org.uk/media/dyn-images/main-lrg-300.jpg)

Frustratingly Stainer and Bell who took over the physical publication of this score for the final revision used the same Carnegie cover but with a little printed amendation in the top right corner saying "1934 revision" (or whatever the date was....)

On a tangent this collection of published pieces was perceived as being of the finest music but much of it is now forgotten.  For an enterprising recording company that might be a good project (well, you can but dream....)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Houndsofheaven.png)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Northumbrian_Hills_Whittaker_1922.png/220px-Northumbrian_Hills_Whittaker_1922.png)(https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/ripleyauctions/05/692405/H0071-L240555413.JPG)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTJi-bd73YZzDfWJKSoQJErp-I5VnD1Yx4Aw&usqp=CAUhttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTJi-bd73YZzDfWJKSoQJErp-I5VnD1Yx4Aw&usqp=CAU)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLk6HkN_bOxD39VB_f76D-Fwdvji2ucM1j76w3T7_0Xy1YGDwKi_UOdC-xY1pGqMezCE4&usqp=CAU)(https://www.byersmusic.com/resources/Norman%20Hay%20string%20quartet.jpg)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQC0NKSWUAIka1J?format=jpg&name=large)

there's a Harry Farjeon big choral mass I can't find an image of here which looks fascinating too ......
Signed by the composer! That's most impressive.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 09, 2022, 06:31:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 09, 2022, 03:09:02 AM
Signed by the composer! That's most impressive.

Sadly I DON'T own any of the score from which those images come - they were all c/o google pictures!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 09, 2022, 07:52:31 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 09, 2022, 06:31:25 AM
Sadly I DON'T own any of the score from which those images come - they were all c/o google pictures!!
Oh! I thought that you had a stash of them at home.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on June 09, 2022, 08:20:12 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 06, 2022, 06:08:06 AM
Funny enough his beloved Slatkin set is out of print and not even available to stream.  That's how popular it is!  ...

Fortunately for anyone who is actually still interested to hear the Slatkin recordings after all the nay-sayers have had their say - they are readily available as pre-owned CDs.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 09, 2022, 08:26:24 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 06, 2022, 06:08:06 AM
Funny enough his beloved Slatkin set is out of print and not even available to stream.  That's how popular it is!

I wouldn't judge the quality of a recording by the record label's decision to let it go out of print. (At one point I wanted to get the Boult cycle and EMI had let it go out of print.) I have the Slatkin cycle and recently listened to A London Symphony. I thought it was great. Not going to become my reference recording, but it was remarkable brisk and extroverted. A great listen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 09, 2022, 08:57:24 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 09, 2022, 08:20:12 AM
Fortunately for anyone who is actually still interested to hear the Slatkin recordings after all the nay-sayers have had their say - they are readily available as pre-owned CDs.

I'm not a naysayer, but I haven't given much attention to the Slatkin cycle, because he seldom falls under my radar in English music. Honestly, I heard his RVW many years ago and the performances didn't leave much of an impression on me. There simply wasn't much individuality in his interpretations. I bought that budget release with remastered audio and while the sonics were quite good, the performances were forgettable.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 09, 2022, 09:19:29 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 09, 2022, 08:57:24 AM
I'm not a naysayer, but I haven't given much attention to the Slatkin cycle, because he seldom falls under my radar in English music. Honestly, I heard his RVW many years ago and the performances didn't leave much of an impression on me. There simply wasn't much individuality in his interpretations. I bought that budget release with remastered audio and while the sonics were quite good, the performances were forgettable.

I have to say for Slatkin I rather liked his Elgar discs with the the LPO on RCA.  Much like the RVW cycle the sonics were great and he got the whole Elgarian swagger thing.  He does have a tendency "if in doubt play it quicker" which certainly papers over the cracks and makes for an exciting performance if the orchestra is good.  Interestingly, just very recently I was listening to his RVW No.9 and enjoying it very much - brisk and no nonsense.... Then I read Roy Douglas' lovely little book about working with RVW in which he rails against the premiere of No.9 with Sargent because all the tempi were much too fast.....  So I still like Slatkin but now think perhaps I shouldn't!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 09, 2022, 09:44:40 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 09, 2022, 09:19:29 AM
I have to say for Slatkin I rather liked his Elgar discs with the the LPO on RCA.  Much like the RVW cycle the sonics were great and he got the whole Elgarian swagger thing.  He does have a tendency "if in doubt play it quicker" which certainly papers over the cracks and makes for an exciting performance if the orchestra is good.  Interestingly, just very recently I was listening to his RVW No.9 and enjoying it very much - brisk and no nonsense.... Then I read Roy Douglas' lovely little book about working with RVW in which he rails against the premiere of No.9 with Sargent because all the tempi were much too fast.....  So I still like Slatkin but now think perhaps I shouldn't!!

The problem I have with Slatkin in this particular repertoire is the lack of a personal stamp. When you've heard Boult, Thomson, Previn, Barbirolli, Berglund, et. al. in this repertoire, it's difficult to shake these earlier impressions and when I've done comparative listening, I found Slatkin unable to match those who came before him. Even in Elgar, I find so many others to be more individualistic than him. Slatkin's claim to fame, in my view, are those outstanding recordings of American music he made in his earlier career, although his newer Copland series on Naxos with the Detroit SO are quite good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 09, 2022, 10:07:26 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 09, 2022, 09:19:29 AM
I have to say for Slatkin I rather liked his Elgar discs with the the LPO on RCA.  Much like the RVW cycle the sonics were great and he got the whole Elgarian swagger thing.  He does have a tendency "if in doubt play it quicker" which certainly papers over the cracks and makes for an exciting performance if the orchestra is good.  Interestingly, just very recently I was listening to his RVW No.9 and enjoying it very much - brisk and no nonsense.... Then I read Roy Douglas' lovely little book about working with RVW in which he rails against the premiere of No.9 with Sargent because all the tempi were much too fast.....  So I still like Slatkin but now think perhaps I shouldn't!!
I like Slatkin's No.9 as well. Sometimes I play his CD of 5 and 6. Those original RCA CD covers were excellent, featuring photos of VW at an appropriate age for the featured symphony.
Roy Douglas (who lived to be over 100) lived locally in Tunbridge Wells. I met him for tea at his home one day! He was very nice. I think that he had VW's piano. I got him to sign his fine book 'Working with RVW'. He hated Sargent which might have coloured his view of that premiere performance. I don't think that it's as bad as he made out.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 10, 2022, 02:22:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 09, 2022, 10:07:26 PM
I like Slatkin's No.9 as well. Sometimes I play his CD of 5 and 6. Those original RCA CD covers were excellent, featuring photos of VW at an appropriate age for the featured symphony.
Roy Douglas (who lived to be over 100) lived locally in Tunbridge Wells. I met him for tea at his home one day! He was very nice. I think that he had VW's piano. I got him to sign his fine book 'Working with RVW'. He hated Sargent which might have coloured his view of that premiere performance. I don't think that it's as bad as he made out.

Aah - interesting about Douglas/Sargent.  His quote about Sargent's premiere of No.9 is vitriolic to say the least!  I picked up recently in a chairty shop the score of a work by Douglas called "A Nowell Sequence" which is part him and part reworking of RVW's "Last Nowell" which was the final work Douglas worked on with RVW.  I'm hoping to programme it a concert this coming Christmas as a late contribution to the RVW 150 celebrations.  It looks lovely and certainly worth reviving.  What I had forgotten was that in tandem with hel;ping RVW Douglas worked with Walton as well - Walton was easier because he was much neater!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 10, 2022, 07:32:37 PM
I received this magazine today and I haven't yet dug into it, but it looks quite well done:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wDqbxlk9L.jpg)

I also have the BBC Music Magazine coming that features the composer:

(https://www.discountmags.com/shopimages/products/extras/471691-bbc-music-cover-2022-may-1-issue.jpg)

It is truly a great time to be an RVW fan!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 11, 2022, 12:14:38 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 10, 2022, 07:32:37 PM
I received this magazine today and I haven't yet dug into it, but it looks quite well done:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wDqbxlk9L.jpg)

I also have the BBC Music Magazine coming that features the composer:

(https://www.discountmags.com/shopimages/products/extras/471691-bbc-music-cover-2022-may-1-issue.jpg)

It is truly a great time to be an RVW fan!

With refence to the "freebie" CD given with each magazine I was put off with the first as I believe it to be "bleeding chunks". The second CD I was in a minority of one of enjoying greatly, particularly the 4th Symphony. Reading your posts and being well aware that you are not John Wilson's greatest admirer I guess the percentage of likes won't budge. :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 11, 2022, 01:34:12 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 10, 2022, 02:22:58 AM
Aah - interesting about Douglas/Sargent.  His quote about Sargent's premiere of No.9 is vitriolic to say the least!  I picked up recently in a chairty shop the score of a work by Douglas called "A Nowell Sequence" which is part him and part reworking of RVW's "Last Nowell" which was the final work Douglas worked on with RVW.  I'm hoping to programme it a concert this coming Christmas as a late contribution to the RVW 150 celebrations.  It looks lovely and certainly worth reviving.  What I had forgotten was that in tandem with hel;ping RVW Douglas worked with Walton as well - Walton was easier because he was much neater!
There's a nice Chandos CD of VW's Christmas music which features that VW/Douglas collaboration I think. I may have got this wrong but I think that Somm may be releasing a Sargent recording of Symphony No.9 which is presumably the infamous first performance. Exciting about your concert!
PS Just found it - July release:
The CD also features Sargent conducting Symphony No.6 - that has never been released before AFAIK.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 11, 2022, 06:34:58 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 11, 2022, 12:14:38 AM
With reference to the "freebie" CD given with each magazine I was put off with the first as I believe it to be "bleeding chunks". The second CD I was in a minority of one of enjoying greatly, particularly the 4th Symphony. Reading your posts and being well aware that you are not John Wilson's greatest admirer I guess the percentage of likes won't budge. :(

I'll be honest and say I seldom listen to the free CDs that come with BBC Music Magazine. Yes, the CD that came with the anniversary magazine is merely a compilation and I don't listen to these kinds of discs. The only compilation disc(s) I like is the one from Ormandy called The Fantastic Philadelphians, but this 2-CD set actually contains some complete works, too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on June 11, 2022, 08:20:50 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 11, 2022, 12:14:38 AM
With refence to the "freebie" CD given with each magazine I was put off with the first as I believe it to be "bleeding chunks". The second CD I was in a minority of one of enjoying greatly, particularly the 4th Symphony. Reading your posts and being well aware that you are not John Wilson's greatest admirer I guess the percentage of likes won't budge. :(

I in fact literally a minute ago finished a third listen to that Wilson recording.
I like it immensely, so that minority has at least two people in it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 12, 2022, 05:43:29 AM
Quote from: JBS on June 11, 2022, 08:20:50 AM
I in fact literally a minute ago finished a third listen to that Wilson recording.
I like it immensely, so that minority has at least two people in it.

I am pleased by that. It should not be a concern if alone liking a work/recording but hard not to be.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2022, 02:36:22 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.6 BBC SO, Boult (live, Proms concert 1972) First listen:
Fabulous! (and I'm listening on a small portable CD player as my usual one is being repaired). IMO this in incomparably better than any recent recording (Manze, Elder, Wilson for example). Boult gave the first performance of the 6th Symphony and I find that his readings have a unique authority about them. This is, in a way, quite different to his three studio recordings on EMI (x2 and Decca). The big tune, at the end of the first movement, is neither given the full romantic treatment (Barbirolli and many others) nor does it have the objectivity of the Decca recording (my favourite), instead it sounds a bit like a stately Tudor dance - but I really enjoyed it. The relentless second movement is faster and not as implacable as the Decca performance and the finale is a bit faster than on Decca (made with VW in the studio). I look forward to hearing it on my usual CD player!
I may have been at either or both of these concerts, from the VW centenary year 1972 and 1975, as I was at the first stage of my early infatuation with Vaughan Williams and I lived within walking distance of the Albert Hall. I certainly heard VW conducted by Boult on several occasions.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 13, 2022, 03:23:26 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 13, 2022, 02:36:22 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.6 BBC SO, Boult (live, Proms concert 1972) First listen:
Fabulous! (and I'm listening on a small portable CD player as my usual one is being repaired). IMO this in incomparably better than any recent recording (Manze, Elder, Wilson for example). Boult gave the first performance of the 6th Symphony and I find that his readings have a unique authority about them. This is, in a way, quite different to his three studio recordings on EMI (x2 and Decca). The big tune, at the end of the first movement, is neither given the full romantic treatment (Barbirolli and many others) nor does it have the objectivity of the Decca recording (my favourite), instead it sounds a bit like a stately Tudor dance - but I really enjoyed it. The relentless second movement is faster and not as implacable as the Decca performance and the finale is a bit faster than on Decca (made with VW in the studio). I look forward to hearing it on my usual CD player!
I may have been at either or both of these concerts, from the VW centenary year 1972 and 1975, as I was at the first stage of my early infatuation with Vaughan Williams and I lived within walking distance of the Albert Hall. I certainly heard VW conducted by Boult on several occasions.
(//)

This is a tempting release. I already have the two EMI versions - the first as a Dutton remaster. The 6th is not one of my top tier favourites but the 5th is and so I might succumb.

You mention Barbirolli - it is a great pity he never got to make a studio recording of the 6th; after the 8th it was the RVW symphony he conducted the most often.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2022, 04:16:41 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 13, 2022, 03:23:26 AM
This is a tempting release. I already have the two EMI versions - the first as a Dutton remaster. The 6th is not one of my top tier favourites but the 5th is and so I might succumb.

You mention Barbirolli - it is a great pity he never got to make a studio recording of the 6th; after the 8th it was the RVW symphony he conducted the most often.
I think that John (MI) didn't like No.5 on this release. I agree with your point about No.6 - although I enjoyed the Barbirolli 70th Birthday Concert CD which featured a very fine performance of No.6, notwithstanding a rushed finale. The ICA release is faster than the Decca finale but more audible and I think that it is very effective. I doubt that you would be disappointed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 13, 2022, 04:27:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 13, 2022, 04:16:41 AM
I think that John (MI) didn't like No.5 on this release. I agree with your point about No.6 - although I enjoyed the Barbirolli 70th Birthday Concert CD which featured a very fine performance of No.6, notwithstanding a rushed finale. The ICA release is faster than the Decca finale but more audible and I think that it is very effective. I doubt that you would be disappointed.

Too many CDs? I had forgotten about the Barbirolli 70th Birthday Concert. I also have his live performance of the 6th from Munich.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2022, 05:48:42 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 13, 2022, 04:27:54 AM
Too many CDs? I had forgotten about the Barbirolli 70th Birthday Concert. I also have his live performance of the 6th from Munich.
The 70th Birthday Concert is very good - I also have the Munich performance. I'm interested to hear Sargent's performance of the 6th Symphony on a forthcoming Somm release. Yes, too many CDs.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 13, 2022, 06:00:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 13, 2022, 04:16:41 AM
I think that John (MI) didn't like No.5 on this release.

This is correct. I found the Romanza rushed. It reminded me of the brisker tempo that Previn took in his accompaniment of the Passacaglia from Shostakovich's 1st VC with Mullova. Never liked this performance either.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 13, 2022, 08:03:09 AM
At last I have heard Previn's recording of the 6th Symphony uncompromised.

RCA made the frankly stupid decision to place the whole 6th symphony on one LP side. Every other recording of this symphony on LP I know of places the Epilogue finale on the reverse side. The trade-off is a curtailment of dynamics which for this symphony above all others is disastrous. The LP format has special qualities but is not without drawbacks and playing times is one.

I would not part with Previn's RVW on vinyl but for the 6th, CD every time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2022, 08:37:44 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 13, 2022, 08:03:09 AM
At last I have heard Previn's recording of the 6th Symphony uncompromised.

RCA made the frankly stupid decision to place the whole 6th symphony on one LP side. Every other recording of this symphony on LP I know of places the Epilogue finale on the reverse side. The trade-off is a curtailment of dynamics which for this symphony above all others is disastrous. The LP format has special qualities but is not without drawbacks and playing times is one.

I would not part with Previn's RVW on vinyl but for the 6th, CD every time.
I opted for the Boult boxed set, rather than the Previn, in my youth Lol. However, in recent years I have come to appreciate Previn's RCA recordings greatly. I consider that he is supreme in nos 3 'A Pastoral Symphony' and No.8 which has a uniquely magical quality to it. Nos 2 and 5 are as good as any and the others are all very good.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 14, 2022, 07:12:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 13, 2022, 08:37:44 AM
I opted for the Boult boxed set, rather than the Previn, in my youth Lol. However, in recent years I have come to appreciate Previn's RCA recordings greatly. I consider that he is supreme in nos 3 'A Pastoral Symphony' and No.8 which has a uniquely magical quality to it. Nos 2 and 5 are as good as any and the others are all very good.

In full agreement, Jeffrey. Listening to the 6th in it's pomp I thought in the imaginary fire given a choice it is Previn I would save. But after listening to the coupling, the 9th, it would be Boult I would rescue from the flames. 5 & 8 Previn is the man for me, for Sir Adrian 2, 4, 7 & 9. I think they are both great in 3 & 6. As you say both conductors produced great complete sets and we as listeners are most fortunate to have them.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 07:28:06 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 14, 2022, 07:12:55 AM
In full agreement, Jeffrey. Listening to the 6th in it's pomp I thought in the imaginary fire given a choice it is Previn I would save. But after listening to the coupling, the 9th, it would be Boult I would rescue from the flames. 5 & 8 Previn is the man for me, for Sir Adrian 2, 4, 7 & 9. I think they are both great in 3 & 6. As you say both conductors produced great complete sets and we as listeners are most fortunate to have them.
I notice that in the single release RCA CD you just get the 5th Symphony and 'The England of Elizabeth' but in the boxed set they throw in the Tuba Concerto as well. I wonder why they excluded it from the single disc release.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 07:57:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 07:28:06 AM
I notice that in the single release RCA CD you just get the 5th Symphony and 'The England of Elizabeth' but in the boxed set they throw in the Tuba Concerto as well. I wonder why they excluded it from the single disc release.

In this reissue, you get all three works on the same disc:

(https://i.discogs.com/K46PLJxMcw5zKQICNS5qhvkgKKuDFo9A9ilAfedGV34/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:593/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE1NjU2/Mzc2LTE1OTUzNTUz/MTUtNjYxNi5qcGVn.jpeg)

P.S. This is one of my favorite RVW recordings. I have yet to hear a better 5th than Previn's on RCA.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 12:57:58 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 07:57:54 AM
In this reissue, you get all three works on the same disc:

(https://i.discogs.com/K46PLJxMcw5zKQICNS5qhvkgKKuDFo9A9ilAfedGV34/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:593/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE1NjU2/Mzc2LTE1OTUzNTUz/MTUtNjYxNi5qcGVn.jpeg)

P.S. This is one of my favorite RVW recordings. I have yet to hear a better 5th than Previn's on RCA.
That's really interesting John - many thanks. Agree about Previn in No.5. I also like Marriner, Gibson, Barbirolli (x2) and VW himself.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 01:14:22 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 12:57:58 PM
That's really interesting John - many thanks. Agree about Previn in No.5. I also like Marriner, Gibson, Barbirolli (x2) and VW himself.

You're welcome, Jeffrey. Just as a side note, I received the Warner/Tower Records hybrid SACD set of the RVW Boult symphonies set today. I'll definitely let you know how the audio quality is when I get around to it. Let me say that the presentation is gorgeous and well-made. You will probably want to get this set. :D

I'll post my thoughts of the new remastering of A Sea Symphony here whenever I listen to it, which will be tonight. I'll be going through the symphonies with Boult again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 01:51:02 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 01:14:22 PM
You're welcome, Jeffrey. Just as a side note, I received the Warner/Tower Records hybrid SACD set of the RVW Boult symphonies set today. I'll definitely let you know how the audio quality is when I get around to it. Let me say that the presentation is gorgeous and well-made. You will probably want to get this set. :D

I'll post my thoughts of the new remastering of A Sea Symphony here whenever I listen to it, which will be tonight. I'll be going through the symphonies with Boult again.
Hi John - great that the Boult set with the splendid packaging has arrived - enjoy!
Are there any notes in English? Also, I think that the RCA CD with Previn and the LSO performing Symphony No.5 the England of Elizabeth and the Tuba Concerto is a USA only release.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 02:05:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 01:51:02 PM
Hi John - great that the Boult set with the splendid packaging has arrived - enjoy!
Are there any notes in English? Also, I think that the RCA CD with Previn and the LSO performing Symphony No.5 the England of Elizabeth and the Tuba Concerto is a USA only release.

Nope. There doesn't appear to be any notes in English aside from the tracklisting, but you should have all the liner notes already in other iterations of this cycle. ;) Ah yes, that Previn release was a US release, but if one wants to buy it, it's on Discogs. ;) I don't need it of course as I own two issues of the Previn cycle already. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 02:20:12 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 02:05:01 PM
Nope. There doesn't appear to be any notes in English aside from the tracklisting, but you should have all the liner notes already in other iterations of this cycle. ;) Ah yes, that Previn release was a US release, but if one wants to buy it, it's on Discogs. ;) I don't need it of course as I own two issues of the Previn cycle already. :)
That's true John as I have at least three other box sets featuring those Boult EMI recordings (CD) + my original LP boxed set (now 50 years old!) ::)
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 02:27:27 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 02:20:12 PM
That's true John as I have at least three other box sets featuring those Boult EMI recordings (CD) + my original LP boxed set (now 50 years old!) ::)

You're just as bad as I am! ;D

Aside from the new Warner/Tower Records set I received today, I own these issues:

(https://i.discogs.com/E7NXEnXHIqmHLNr5n1QsxbGuYqftz8Ub86Ws2yEvPsU/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:599/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTczMzc0/ODMtMTQzOTIyNzMz/NS00MjYyLmpwZWc.jpeg)(https://i.discogs.com/0NZwufjM7aXl-sZWUOIe6tz2d0nAnLoshrUcBndCFOA/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEzNjMx/ODQxLTE1NTc5MDk5/MzctMjU0My5qcGVn.jpeg)(https://www.warnerclassics.com/sites/default/files/styles/release_and_playlist_cover_756_x_756/public/5099990356728.jpg?itok=FcLancYm)

The first set on the far left is my first Vaughan Williams box set. These Boult performances are what I cut my teeth on before buying other cycles. I still hold this cycle dear to my heart.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 05:07:24 PM
Cross-posted from the "Listening" thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 04:56:06 PM
Now playing:

Vaughan Williams
A Sea Symphony
John Carol Case (baritone), Sheila Armstrong (soprano)
London Philharmonic Orchestra & Choir

A London Symphony
London Philharmonic Orchestra

Sir Adrian Boult


From this newly acquired Warner/Tower Records hybrid SACD set with a new remastering -

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HhMAAOSw3mxik0V6/s-l500.jpg)

A few quick words about the new remastering as I promised: IT IS BLOODY MARVELOUS! Spotted Horses mentioned he didn't want to pay a high dollar amount for tape hiss, well, you won't, because you're paying a high dollar amount for a remastering that is done right. ;) There is nothing overly accentuated, but it sounds like the lower frequencies have had a bit boast in them, but nothing like a "pop" record. :) Anyway, I'm pleasantly surprised by how much clarity there is in this new remastering. It sounds like it could've been recorded today. To each of the members here that have expressed an interest in this set, you will not be disappointed in the fidelity at all. BUY IT NOW!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on June 14, 2022, 05:40:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 05:07:24 PM
Cross-posted from the "Listening" thread:

A few quick words about the new remastering as I promised: IT IS BLOODY MARVELOUS! Spotted Horses mentioned he didn't want to pay a high dollar amount for tape hiss, well, you won't, because you're paying a high dollar amount for a remastering that is done right. ;) There is nothing overly accentuated, but it sounds like the lower frequencies have had a bit boast in them, but nothing like a "pop" record. :) Anyway, I'm pleasantly surprised by how much clarity there is in this new remastering. It sounds like it could've been recorded today. To each of the members here that have expressed an interest in this set, you will not be disappointed in the fidelity at all. BUY IT NOW!

That's marvelous news. I was close to ordering the set anyway, but your review is enough to open my wallet for this new remastering. I'm glad you're enjoying it so much.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 05:42:59 PM
Quote from: LKB on June 14, 2022, 05:40:18 PM
That's marvelous news. I was close to ordering the set anyway, but your review is enough to open my wallet for this new remastering. I'm glad you're enjoying it so much.  8)

Thanks, LKB. I don't think you'll regret this purchase at all. I bought my set through Tower Records Japan and they seem to have the best deal in terms of price and shipping:

https://tower.jp/item/5421418/%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A3%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A0%E3%82%BA%EF%BC%9A%E4%BA%A4%E9%9F%BF%E6%9B%B2%E5%85%A8%E9%9B%86%EF%BC%9C%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B3%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%EF%BC%9E (https://tower.jp/item/5421418/%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A3%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A0%E3%82%BA%EF%BC%9A%E4%BA%A4%E9%9F%BF%E6%9B%B2%E5%85%A8%E9%9B%86%EF%BC%9C%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B3%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%EF%BC%9E)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 14, 2022, 08:40:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 02:27:27 PM
You're just as bad as I am! ;D

Aside from the new Warner/Tower Records set I received today, I own these issues:

(https://i.discogs.com/E7NXEnXHIqmHLNr5n1QsxbGuYqftz8Ub86Ws2yEvPsU/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:599/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTczMzc0/ODMtMTQzOTIyNzMz/NS00MjYyLmpwZWc.jpeg)(https://i.discogs.com/0NZwufjM7aXl-sZWUOIe6tz2d0nAnLoshrUcBndCFOA/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEzNjMx/ODQxLTE1NTc5MDk5/MzctMjU0My5qcGVn.jpeg)(https://www.warnerclassics.com/sites/default/files/styles/release_and_playlist_cover_756_x_756/public/5099990356728.jpg?itok=FcLancYm)

The first set on the far left is my first Vaughan Williams box set. These Boult performances are what I cut my teeth on before buying other cycles. I still hold this cycle dear to my heart.

Now I'm confused. Your second set (the one at center) contains the same symphony recordings and masterings as your first set (the one at left) except that non-symphony orchestral music is omitted. What motivated the purchase of the second set?

I had the far left set, but sold it about ten years ago when I got other RVW cycles that I liked better. I ended up getting the Boult Vaughan Williams "The Complete Recordings" this year, mainly because my regard for Boult has increased over the years and I thought I should have these recordings, particularly the oldest recordings. (I also have the Boult/RVW/Decca set.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 09:02:02 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 14, 2022, 08:40:56 PM
Now I'm confused. Your second set (the one at center) contains the same symphony recordings and masterings as your first set (the one at left) except that non-symphony orchestral music is omitted. What motivated the purchase of the second set?

I had the far left set, but sold it about ten years ago when I got other RVW cycles that I liked better. I ended up getting the Boult Vaughan Williams "The Complete Recordings" this year, mainly because my regard for Boult has increased over the years and I thought I should have these recordings, particularly the oldest recordings. (I also have the Boult/RVW/Decca set.)

I'm afraid I have no logical explanation for owning the second set. Like you, I also own the Decca set, but I don't like it as good as these stereo recordings. I'm kind of an RVW junkie in terms of collecting (esp. the orchestral, vocal and chamber works) and I'm currently undergoing treatment at the local sanatorium. ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 11:11:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 02:27:27 PM
You're just as bad as I am! ;D

Aside from the new Warner/Tower Records set I received today, I own these issues:

(https://i.discogs.com/E7NXEnXHIqmHLNr5n1QsxbGuYqftz8Ub86Ws2yEvPsU/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:599/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTczMzc0/ODMtMTQzOTIyNzMz/NS00MjYyLmpwZWc.jpeg)(https://i.discogs.com/0NZwufjM7aXl-sZWUOIe6tz2d0nAnLoshrUcBndCFOA/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEzNjMx/ODQxLTE1NTc5MDk5/MzctMjU0My5qcGVn.jpeg)(https://www.warnerclassics.com/sites/default/files/styles/release_and_playlist_cover_756_x_756/public/5099990356728.jpg?itok=FcLancYm)

The first set on the far left is my first Vaughan Williams box set. These Boult performances are what I cut my teeth on before buying other cycles. I still hold this cycle dear to my heart.
Yes, that is exactly the same as my collection excluding my old LP set (which I bought in 1972 - I had a Saturday job in a record shop and saved up for the LP set and utilised my staff discount  :))
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 11:15:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2022, 09:02:02 PM
I'm afraid I have no logical explanation for owning the second set. Like you, I also own the Decca set, but I don't like it as good as these stereo recordings. I'm kind of an RVW junkie in terms of collecting (esp. the orchestral, vocal and chamber works) and I'm currently undergoing treatment at the local sanatorium. ;D
In my case it's called OCDCDCD (obsessive compulsive CD collecting disorder). As John says there is no logical reason for it. I think that I no longer have the blue box set as I sold it some years ago. Great news about the Japanese set John  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2022, 02:12:59 AM
Colleague sent me this:
https://www.planethugill.com/2022/06/midori.html
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 15, 2022, 05:49:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2022, 02:12:59 AM
Colleague sent me this:
https://www.planethugill.com/2022/06/midori.html

Always pleased to hear of more violinists exploring RVW's fiddle music away from "just" The Lark Ascending.  I've mentioned this disc before but it remains stubbornly little known....

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b2735ae6b38662a2d1f52db00888)

Occasionally Mordkovitch can be a little too forceful for my taste but she is excellent in the Sonata which is a very fine work.  I prefer the 6 Studies in English Folksong in the clarinet version as the lack of vibrato on that instrument somehow makes the folksongs "purer" and less affected.  This old version on Chandos of those by Janet Hilton is just gorgeous....

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ea/0h/bttc4vecw0hea_600.jpg)

the same performance appears in this Chandos twofer which brings together various disparate older Chandos recordings and makes for a very interesting mixed programme.....

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0NTMxOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MjAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MzQ4MTg3MTJ9)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 15, 2022, 05:53:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 11:11:35 PM
Yes, that is exactly the same as my collection excluding my old LP set (which I bought in 1972 - I had a Saturday job in a record shop and saved up for the LP set and utilised my staff discount  :))

Quote from: vandermolen on June 14, 2022, 11:15:30 PM
In my case it's called OCDCDCD (obsessive compulsive CD collecting disorder). As John says there is no logical reason for it. I think that I no longer have the blue box set as I sold it some years ago. Great news about the Japanese set John  :)

I can only imagine how thrilled and enraptured as a youngster you were with this Boult set, Jeffrey. Honestly, I don't remember my first reactions to RVW. They were positive of course, but I don't actually think I understood the music too well. I got into RVW when I was still new to classical music and trying to understand it. I must've listened to Boult's set 4-5 times in row.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 15, 2022, 06:53:56 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 15, 2022, 05:49:50 AM
Always pleased to hear of more violinists exploring RVW's fiddle music away from "just" The Lark Ascending.  I've mentioned this disc before but it remains stubbornly little known....

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b2735ae6b38662a2d1f52db00888)

Occasionally Mordkovitch can be a little too forceful for my taste but she is excellent in the Sonata which is a very fine work.  I prefer the 6 Studies in English Folksong in the clarinet version as the lack of vibrato on that instrument somehow makes the folksongs "purer" and less affected.  This old version on Chandos of those by Janet Hilton is just gorgeous....

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ea/0h/bttc4vecw0hea_600.jpg)

the same performance appears in this Chandos twofer which brings together various disparate older Chandos recordings and makes for a very interesting mixed programme.....

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0NTMxOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MjAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MzQ4MTg3MTJ9)

I imagine Mordkovitch being quite good in the Violin Sonata No. 2. This is one of RVW's more gnarlier pieces and I love it to bits. I own that Chandos 2-CD set somewhere and I remember it having a rather odd mix of works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 15, 2022, 06:57:09 AM
I might rewatch this documentary tonight:

(https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/044b228b-ade5-4cf1-8eea-e6626e113249_1.82fd5799998fc1590d4904b989c21ba3.jpeg)

I recall our Jeffrey isn't too fond of this documentary, but I happen to prefer it to the Tony Palmer film, O Thou Transcendent, which I wrote a scathing review of on Amazon many years ago.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 15, 2022, 07:04:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 15, 2022, 06:53:56 AM
I imagine Mordkovitch being quite good in the Violin Sonata No. 2. This is one of RVW's more gnarlier pieces and I love it to bits. I own that Chandos 2-CD set somewhere and I remember it having a rather odd mix of works.

There is only 1 Violin sonata which is simply "Violin Sonata in A minor" - the String Quartet No.2 is in the same key........
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 15, 2022, 07:06:34 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 15, 2022, 07:04:39 AM
There is only 1 Violin sonata which is simply "Violin Sonata in A minor" - the String Quartet No.2 is in the same key........

Ah, you're quite right. I might've been confusing the SQs.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 15, 2022, 07:06:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 15, 2022, 06:57:09 AM
I might rewatch this documentary tonight:

(https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/044b228b-ade5-4cf1-8eea-e6626e113249_1.82fd5799998fc1590d4904b989c21ba3.jpeg)

I recall our Jeffrey isn't too fond of this documentary, but I happen to prefer it to the Tony Palmer film, O Thou Transcendent, which I wrote a scathing review of on Amazon many years ago.

I didn't like it either - for me it tried too hard to "sensationalise" the fact that RVW was a man who had relationships with women.........  whatever next!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 15, 2022, 07:12:56 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 15, 2022, 07:06:34 AM
I didn't like it either - for me it tried too hard to "sensationalise" the fact that RVW was a man who had relationships with women.........  whatever next!

Yes, I didn't like this particular angle of the documentary either, which may be why I haven't rewatched it. ;) I'd love a documentary on the composer that actually told the composer's story without trying to exaggerate a story or make a  particular talking point. One of the problems I have with the Palmer film is the sloppiness of it all and how there wasn't some kind of narrative told in a coherent way. I also didn't like the images of dead children and stacks of dead bodies being thrown about. For me, this had no place in a film about a composer. We know RVW was in the trenches of WWI. I just found it distasteful.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2022, 09:49:34 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 15, 2022, 07:06:34 AM
I didn't like it either - for me it tried too hard to "sensationalise" the fact that RVW was a man who had relationships with women.........  whatever next!
V much agree - the other one was ruined for me by the absurd juxtaposition of extracts from the Ninth Symphony with images of famine in Biafra. In some respects the forgotten and surprisingly conventional Ken Russell film about Vaughan Williams was best of all.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 15, 2022, 10:07:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2022, 09:49:34 AM
V much agree - the other one was ruined for me by the absurd juxtaposition of extracts from the Ninth Symphony with images of famine in Biafra. In some respects the forgotten and surprisingly conventional Ken Russell film about Vaughan Williams was best of all.

I've seen that Ken Russell film via YouTube...well, I didn't watch all of it, because I thought it wasn't too well thought-out. I'm definitely waiting on a documentary that follows the composer's life chronologically in a coherent way with the absence of grotesque imagery, tangents that have nothing to do with the composer's own life or music and haphazard, erratic editing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2022, 01:28:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 15, 2022, 10:07:29 AM
I've seen that Ken Russell film via YouTube...well, I didn't watch all of it, because I thought it wasn't too well thought-out. I'm definitely waiting on a documentary that follows the composer's life chronologically in a coherent way with the absence of grotesque imagery, tangents that have nothing to do with the composer's own life or music and haphazard, erratic editing.
The one I most enjoyed was the recent one (over here) about the friendship between VW and Holst. A good example of 'less is more' I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 15, 2022, 01:48:48 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2022, 01:28:37 PM
The one I most enjoyed was the recent one (over here) about the friendship between VW and Holst. A good example of 'less is more' I think.

Very nice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 16, 2022, 04:23:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2022, 01:28:37 PM
The one I most enjoyed was the recent one (over here) about the friendship between VW and Holst. A good example of 'less is more' I think.

That was the "Heirs & Rebels" documentary wasn't it?  Which is also the title of the book of letters between the 2 composers

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Nm3Frr9YL._SX373_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

which I strongly recommend to anyone interested.  The title itself is such a perfect distillation of the 2 composer's creative approach - heirs to a 19th Century legacy and Germanic influences while also rebelling against the same via folksong/Elizabethan music/Indian culture etc etc......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 16, 2022, 07:22:58 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 16, 2022, 04:23:35 AM
That was the "Heirs & Rebels" documentary wasn't it?  Which is also the title of the book of letters between the 2 composers

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Nm3Frr9YL._SX373_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

which I strongly recommend to anyone interested.  The title itself is such a perfect distillation of the 2 composer's creative approach - heirs to a 19th Century legacy and Germanic influences while also rebelling against the same via folksong/Elizabethan music/Indian culture etc etc......

Don't think so. Not a hard edged factual documentary but a fascinating view of the two composers friendship by Amanda Vickery and Tom Service.
At least that is what I think Jeffrey is alluding too. :)

  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bshhss
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 16, 2022, 05:55:18 PM
Quote from: Irons on June 16, 2022, 07:22:58 AM
Don't think so. Not a hard edged factual documentary but a fascinating view of the two composers friendship by Amanda Vickery and Tom Service.
At least that is what I think Jeffrey is alluding too. :)

  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bshhss

Thanks! Enjoyed this v. much. (Had to adopt a UK VPN) 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 16, 2022, 10:02:38 PM
Quote from: Irons on June 16, 2022, 07:22:58 AM
Don't think so. Not a hard edged factual documentary but a fascinating view of the two composers friendship by Amanda Vickery and Tom Service.
At least that is what I think Jeffrey is alluding too. :)

  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bshhss
Yes, Lol is right.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 16, 2022, 10:03:21 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2022, 05:55:18 PM
Thanks! Enjoyed this v. much. (Had to adopt a UK VPN) 8)
I'm glad that you enjoyed it Karl.
I liked the scenes relating to Holst's teaching post at St Paul's Girls School in Hammersmith (hence the 'St Paul's Suite' and 'Hammersmith'). What wasn't mentioned was that VW sometimes stood in for Holst if Holst was ill (his health was quite fragile).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 17, 2022, 06:46:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 16, 2022, 10:03:21 PM
I'm glad that you enjoyed it Karl.
I liked the scenes relating to Holst's teaching post at St Paul's Girls School in Hammersmith (hence the 'St Paul's Suite' and 'Hammersmith'). What wasn't mentioned was that VW sometimes stood in for Holst if Holst was ill (his health was quite fragile).


That's why GMG is an important supplement.  8)  One of my key takeaways was that I need to give Egdon Heath some proper attention.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 17, 2022, 06:53:17 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 17, 2022, 06:46:33 AM
That's why GMG is an important supplement.  8)  One of my key takeaways was that I need to give Egdon Heath some proper attention.

I would be most interested in your views of a piece that tends to fly under the radar.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 17, 2022, 06:56:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 17, 2022, 06:46:33 AM
That's why GMG is an important supplement.  8)  One of my key takeaways was that I need to give Egdon Heath some proper attention.

Egdon Heath is a masterpiece, Karl. I read that this is one of Holst's personal favorite pieces of his own.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 17, 2022, 07:25:42 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 17, 2022, 06:53:17 AM
I would be most interested in your views of a piece that tends to fly under the radar.

Will report over in Holst's own thread!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 17, 2022, 09:35:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 17, 2022, 06:56:11 AM
Egdon Heath is a masterpiece, Karl. I read that this is one of Holst's personal favorite pieces of his own.
+1
A bit like and English 'Tapiola' in spirit.
See you in the Holst thread!
;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 22, 2022, 10:07:36 PM
An interesting review of the conclusion of the Elder cycle of symphonies:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Jun/VWilliams-antartica-CDHLD7558.htm

I agree that it's a pity that Elder's very successful performance of 'Job' was not included in the boxed set of complete symphonies.


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on June 22, 2022, 11:15:28 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 22, 2022, 10:07:36 PM
An interesting review of the conclusion of the Elder cycle of symphonies:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Jun/VWilliams-antartica-CDHLD7558.htm

I agree that it's a pity that Elder's very successful performance of 'Job' was not included in the boxed set of complete symphonies.

I know not everyone here rates the Elder cycle highly, but I am a big fan and listen often. Nice review, thank you.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 22, 2022, 11:35:35 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 22, 2022, 11:15:28 PM
I know not everyone here rates the Elder cycle highly, but I am a big fan and listen often. Nice review, thank you.
My pleasure Danny. The new Elder CD featuring Sinfonia Antartica and Symphony No.9 etc costs half as much as the complete boxed set which retails at about £30.00. They could have included 'Job' which is an excellent performance.

From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.8 (LSO Hickox)
First listen to the new boxed set, which I was given yesterday. The rather peculiar sketch of the podgy Vaughan Williams on the front cover is, as I thought, an early painted sketch for the (much better) painting of Vaughan Williams in the Royal College of Music by Sir Gerald Kelly (see below). The finished painting also features in the Thomson boxed set of VW symphonies. The performance of the 8th Symphony is good but nothing special IMO and it is without the magical qualities of Previn's recording (Thomson is also excellent in this symphony). The lovely Cavatina, for example, is taken rather slowly but, to me, just sounds drawn out rather than especially insightful or moving. The CD is, however, of great interest as, after the symphony, you get recorded speeches by VW himself, Ursula VW, Barbirolli and Boult (in total about 50 minutes). The booklet features a nice photo of VW and Holst on one of their walking expeditions.

(//)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 23, 2022, 03:22:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 22, 2022, 10:07:36 PM
An interesting review of the conclusion of the Elder cycle of symphonies:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Jun/VWilliams-antartica-CDHLD7558.htm

I agree that it's a pity that Elder's very successful performance of 'Job' was not included in the boxed set of complete symphonies.

Thanks for the link to the review.

If you are coming new to this cycle the box set is a bargain. I collected the cycle as it was released (and Job) so I wasn't interested in the box. Also the box set doesn't have the various fillers although some of them have appeared elsewhere. The Antartica album came down in price between per-ordering it and actually receiving it from Amazon but it is still around £16.

Yesterday I listened to Elder's Sea Symphony and now intend to work through the whole cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 04:05:08 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 23, 2022, 03:22:17 AM
Thanks for the link to the review.

If you are coming new to this cycle the box set is a bargain. I collected the cycle as it was released (and Job) so I wasn't interested in the box. Also the box set doesn't have the various fillers although some of them have appeared elsewhere. The Antartica album came down in price between per-ordering it and actually receiving it from Amazon but it is still around £16.

Yesterday I listened to Elder's Sea Symphony and now intend to work through the whole cycle.
What's the Elder Sea Symphony like? I'm still debating what to do about the boxed set. I bought the individual release featuring A Pastoral Symphony (very good) and Symphony No.6 (poor) and 'Job' (excellent) but none of the others  - your point about the fillers isa good one.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 23, 2022, 04:07:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 04:05:08 AM
What's the Elder Sea Symphony like? I'm still debaing what to do about the boxed set. I bought the individual release featuring A Pastoral Symphony (very good) and Symphony No.6 (poor) and 'Job' (excellent) but none of the others  - your point about the fillers isa good one.

The Elder Sea Symphony is a fine performance, my only quibble is that I would prefer a soprano with less vibrato.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 23, 2022, 05:32:15 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 04:05:08 AM
What's the Elder Sea Symphony like? I'm still debaing what to do about the boxed set. I bought the individual release featuring A Pastoral Symphony (very good) and Symphony No.6 (poor) and 'Job' (excellent) but none of the others  - your point about the fillers isa good one.

For what its worth I've recently listened to the complete Elder cycle in order.  Certain characteristics emerge both in terms of the interpretations and the engineering.  Most performances (6 of the 9 I think) are taken from concerts and the chosen orchestral perspective is more recessed than is often heard.  The studio performances - produced/engineered by Andrew Keener and Simon Eadon I thought were technically better than the "live" ones.  Elder favours middle to slower tempi and he certainly never asks the Halle to play "louder than beautiful".  For my taste some of RVW's stubbornly craggy writing is rather lost.  Highlights for me were a grand Sea Symphony, a thoughtful Pastoral (don't like the soprano who sings too loud) and a good 8.  London is a dud, 4 rather too cultured for my taste, 6 not that threatening either, Antartica one of the better ones too (with an underwhelming organ) and a pretty good 9.  As a set this would be a long way down my preferred choice - well after Boult 1 or 2, Previn or Thomson, Handley or Davis.  Except for the London I'd say they are all perfectly good - and certainly very well played - but not gripping in the way in the way that the other cycles often are and even the "highlight" performances are better done elsewhere.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 05:51:36 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 23, 2022, 04:07:56 AM
The Elder Sea Symphony is a fine performance, my only quibble is that I would prefer a soprano with less vibrato.
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 05:56:10 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 23, 2022, 05:32:15 AM
For what its worth I've recently listened to the complete Elder cycle in order.  Certain characteristics emerge both in terms of the interpretations and the engineering.  Most performances (6 of the 9 I think) are taken from concerts and the chosen orchestral perspective is more recessed than is often heard.  The studio performances - produced/engineered by Andrew Keener and Simon Eadon I thought were technically better than the "live" ones.  Elder favours middle to slower tempi and he certainly never asks the Halle to play "louder than beautiful".  For my taste some of RVW's stubbornly craggy writing is rather lost.  Highlights for me were a grand Sea Symphony, a thoughtful Pastoral (don't like the soprano who sings too loud) and a good 8.  London is a dud, 4 rather too cultured for my taste, 6 not that threatening either, Antartica one of the better ones too (with an underwhelming organ) and a pretty good 9.  As a set this would be a long way down my preferred choice - well after Boult 1 or 2, Previn or Thomson, Handley or Davis.  Except for the London I'd say they are all perfectly good - and certainly very well played - but not gripping in the way in the way that the other cycles often are and even the "highlight" performances are better done elsewhere.
Very helpful to know - thank you. I know this is a rather daft question but, assuming that you have the physical boxed set, what are the booklet notes like and are there any photos of VW (rather than just Elder) contained within it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 23, 2022, 06:07:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 05:56:10 AM
Very helpful to know - thank you. I know this is a rather daft question but, assuming that you have the physical boxed set, what are the booklet notes like and are there any photos of VW (rather than just Elder) contained within it?

Yes I do have the physical box.  The booklet is actually very good indeed - nicely printed on good quality paper stock.  The notes on each symphony are reproduced (I assume) from the original individual releases because they are by Michael Kennedy and Andrew Burn.  In addition there is a brief article called "The Halle and Vaughan Williams" and also 3 or 4 rather interesting photographs from the orchestra archives of RVW with Barbirolli and the orchestra.  There is also the pic of the famous signed score of at the premiere of Antartica.

As a PS to my previous post - even while this is not my favourite set, in NO WAY is it poor as Hurwitz unequivocally stated in his recent "review" of the set online.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 06:16:37 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 23, 2022, 06:07:48 AM
Yes I do have the physical box.  The booklet is actually very good indeed - nicely printed on good quality paper stock.  The notes on each symphony are reproduced (I assume) from the original individual releases because they are by Michael Kennedy and Andrew Burn.  In addition there is a brief article called "The Halle and Vaughan Williams" and also 3 or 4 rather interesting photographs from the orchestra archives of RVW with Barbirolli and the orchestra.  There is also the pic of the famous signed score of at the premiere of Antartica.

As a PS to my previous post - even while this is not my favourite set, in NO WAY is it poor as Hurwitz unequivocally stated in his recent "review" of the set online.
Thanks v much RS. Still not sure what to do - my wife would suggest not buying anything at all.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on June 23, 2022, 06:27:05 AM
In my experience, Hurwitz's reviews always have to be taken with at least a couple grains of salt... big ones.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 23, 2022, 07:03:13 AM
I have numerous cycles as well as individual discs (LPs and CDs) and some of the cycles (or partial cycles) were assembled over a number of years. Some have been favourites for decades.

Apart from a small number of core recordings I now find it almost impossible to choose 'favourites'. If I was forced to take one cycle to that fabled desert island it would be Boult/EMI - as long as I could take Barbirolli's 2 & 5 - and probably Previn's 3......

I suppose there is a strong element of sentiment involved including a deep attachment to the Halle and some favourite conductors. I think Elder is a wonderful conductor and I heard him numerous times at the ENO but never live in an orchestral concert (that I can remember).

I don't need Hurvitz's opinions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 23, 2022, 07:10:03 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 23, 2022, 07:03:13 AM
I have numerous cycles as well as individual discs (LPs and CDs) and some of the cycles (or partial cycles) were assembled over a number of years. Some have been favourites for decades.

Apart from a small number of core recordings I now find it almost impossible to choose 'favourites'. If I was forced to take one cycle to that fabled desert island it would be Boult/EMI - as long as I could take Barbirolli's 2 & 5 - and probably Previn's 3......

I suppose there is a strong element of sentiment involved including a deep attachment to the Halle and some favourite conductors. I think Elder is a wonderful conductor and I heard him numerous times at the ENO but never live in an orchestral concert (that I can remember).

I don't need Hurvitz's opinions.

Agreed and agreed to the boldened sections above! 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 23, 2022, 07:58:49 AM
Just bought:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMyMjk5OC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NDkzMjQ5NjF9)

This will complete my Elder RVW collection. I may have to go through his cycle again and see what sticks and what doesn't. As I mentioned before, A Pastoral Symphony is a gorgeous performance and one of the best versions I've heard of this symphony. His Tallis Fantasia and Five Variants on 'Dives and Lazarus' were also incredibly well-performed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 11:07:13 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 23, 2022, 07:03:13 AM
I have numerous cycles as well as individual discs (LPs and CDs) and some of the cycles (or partial cycles) were assembled over a number of years. Some have been favourites for decades.

Apart from a small number of core recordings I now find it almost impossible to choose 'favourites'. If I was forced to take one cycle to that fabled desert island it would be Boult/EMI - as long as I could take Barbirolli's 2 & 5 - and probably Previn's 3......

I suppose there is a strong element of sentiment involved including a deep attachment to the Halle and some favourite conductors. I think Elder is a wonderful conductor and I heard him numerous times at the ENO but never live in an orchestral concert (that I can remember).

I don't need Hurvitz's opinions.
Yes, you'd have to take Previn's No.3  ;D
Which Barbirolli recordings are you referring to; PYE or EMI?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on June 23, 2022, 06:27:59 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 11:07:13 AM
Yes, you'd have to take Previn's No.3  ;D
Which Barbirolli recordings are you referring to; PYE or EMI?

[Interjecting] Barbirolli didn't record Number 5 for Pye; he did record it twice for EMI (more precisely, for HMV). Purely for sonics the later version is better.

I don't recall thinking either of the two recordings of the Second was clearly better than the other. But if you had the original issue of the Pye, you'd also have the Eighth.

[The above is based on my traversal of the Warner Barbirolli box.]
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 09:40:02 PM
Quote from: JBS on June 23, 2022, 06:27:59 PM
[Interjecting] Barbirolli didn't record Number 5 for Pye; he did record it twice for EMI (more precisely, for HMV). Purely for sonics the later version is better.

I don't recall thinking either of the two recordings of the Second was clearly better than the other. But if you had the original issue of the Pye, you'd also have the Eighth.

[The above is based on my traversal of the Warner Barbirolli box.]
Yes, you're quite right Jeffrey - the earlier London Symphony was for Pye. Alto were thinking of reissuing it but not sure that's going to happen now - it's a fine performance though.

My earliest knowledge of the 5th Symphony comes from Barbirolli's later version (one of the best I think) which my older brother had in his LP collection.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 24, 2022, 01:45:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 11:07:13 AM
Yes, you'd have to take Previn's No.3  ;D
Which Barbirolli recordings are you referring to; PYE or EMI?

I have both recordings of No 2 (duplicated in the Warner Barbirolli box); performance-wise I marginally prefer the earlier (originally PYE but I first bought it a remastered download from Pristine Classical) version though I listen to the later EMI stereo recording far more often; I also prefer the second movement in the EMI disc.

I have both versions of No 5 but usually listen to the second EMI recording. Most recently I listened to No 5 from Boult (HMV/EMI) on LP.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2022, 04:27:00 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 23, 2022, 07:58:49 AM
Just bought:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMyMjk5OC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NDkzMjQ5NjF9)

This will complete my Elder RVW collection. I may have to go through his cycle again and see what sticks and what doesn't. As I mentioned before, A Pastoral Symphony is a gorgeous performance and one of the best versions I've heard of this symphony. His Tallis Fantasia and Five Variants on 'Dives and Lazarus' were also incredibly well-performed.
Very nice John. I'm still debating whether to get that one or the boxed set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2022, 04:30:36 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 24, 2022, 01:45:51 AM
I have both recordings of No 2 (duplicated in the Warner Barbirolli box); performance-wise I marginally prefer the earlier (originally PYE but I first bought it a remastered download from Pristine Classical) version though I listen to the later EMI stereo recording far more often; I also prefer the second movement in the EMI disc.

I have both versions of No 5 but usually listen to the second EMI recording. Most recently I listened to No 5 from Boult (HMV/EMI) on LP.
I marginally prefer the more recent recordings as well.
I think that the original plan was for Barbirolli and Boult to share the EMI (Stereo) cycle between them but Barbirolli's death in 1970 resulted in Boult recording the complete cycle himself.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 24, 2022, 06:25:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 24, 2022, 04:27:00 AM
Very nice John. I'm still debating whether to get that one or the boxed set.

Looks like you went with the box set. ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2022, 09:55:46 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 24, 2022, 06:25:07 AM
Looks like you went with the box set. ;D
Indeed  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 25, 2022, 06:27:38 AM
Roasted Swan is right - this is a beautifully presented boxed set (for £30.00). You also get the individual CDs encased in cardboard sleeves featuring the original CD release images. The booklet, as RS pointed out, is also nicely produced featuring four photos of the composer, with or without Barbirolli, most of which were new to me. Also I noted with interest the signatures of Ursula Wood (soon to be Ursula VW) and Roy Douglas on the reproduced image of the score of Sinfonia Antartica. I'm now listening to 'A Sea Symphony' for the first time - seems like a very fine performance notwithstanding a rather shrill and in-your-face soprano soloist:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 25, 2022, 07:36:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 25, 2022, 06:27:38 AM
Roasted Swan is right - this is a beautifully presented boxed set (for £30.00). You also get the individual CDs encased in cardboard sleeves featuring the original CD release images. The booklet, as RS pointed out, is also nicely produced featuring four photos of the composer, with or without Barbirolli, most of which were new to me. Also I noted with interest the signatures of Ursula Wood (soon to be Ursula VW) and Roy Douglas on the reproduced image of the score of Sinfonia Antartica. I'm now listening to 'A Sea Symphony' for the first time - seems like a very fine performance notwithstanding a rather shrill and in-your-face soprano soloist:
(//)

I didn't find the soprano shrill just given to too much vibrato; she is at times 'in-your-face' but that might be a matter of taste.

For a real 'in-your-face' soprano you should here Renée Flynn in the composer's own recording (Somm) from 1936  - the opening really does rattle the window-frames. I am not sure how deaf RVW was by then, perhaps he didn't notice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 25, 2022, 08:39:55 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 25, 2022, 07:36:51 AM
I didn't find the soprano shrill just given to too much vibrato; she is at times 'in-your-face' but that might be a matter of taste.

For a real 'in-your-face' soprano you should here Renée Flynn in the composer's own recording (Somm) from 1936  - the opening really does rattle the window-frames. I am not sure how deaf RVW was by then, perhaps he didn't notice.
Yes, 'too much vibrato' is more accurate; I found it really off-putting, although it did not stop me enjoying the symphony.

'Composer's own recording'  :o
I wasn't aware that there was a recording of VW conducting 'A Sea Symphony'. Do you mean Dona Nobis Pacem?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 25, 2022, 09:50:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 25, 2022, 08:39:55 AM
Yes, 'too much vibrato' is more accurate; I found it really off-putting, although it did not stop me enjoying the symphony.

'Composers own recording'  :o
I wasn't aware that there was a recording of VW conducting 'A Sea Symphony'. Do you mean Dona Nobis Pacem?

Here's where personal taste is so different - I find her singing vibrant and alive.  yes the vibrato is pronounced but its also tightly controlled and focussed around the pitch centre of the note.  Teresa Cahill singing on the Gibson/SNO/Chandos/Elgar/Spirit of England sings with similar attack.

I have much more of a problem with vocal vibrato when the voice "flaps" and you have no real sense of where the pitch lies - the soprano who makes me cringe for that is Jeanne-Michèle Charbonnet who sang on the Foulds World Requiem performance/recording that I know both you and I attended - she is AWFUL!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 25, 2022, 01:48:50 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 25, 2022, 09:50:31 AM
Here's where personal taste is so different - I find her singing vibrant and alive.  yes the vibrato is pronounced but its also tightly controlled and focussed around the pitch centre of the note.  Teresa Cahill singing on the Gibson/SNO/Chandos/Elgar/Spirit of England sings with similar attack.

I have much more of a problem with vocal vibrato when the voice "flaps" and you have no real sense of where the pitch lies - the soprano who makes me cringe for that is Jeanne-Michèle Charbonnet who sang on the Foulds World Requiem performance/recording that I know both you and I attended - she is AWFUL!
I'd not noticed that but it's about time I heard that work again so I'll look out for it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 25, 2022, 09:07:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 25, 2022, 06:27:38 AM
Roasted Swan is right - this is a beautifully presented boxed set (for £30.00). You also get the individual CDs encased in cardboard sleeves featuring the original CD release images. The booklet, as RS pointed out, is also nicely produced featuring four photos of the composer, with or without Barbirolli, most of which were new to me. Also I noted with interest the signatures of Ursula Wood (soon to be Ursula VW) and Roy Douglas on the reproduced image of the score of Sinfonia Antartica. I'm now listening to 'A Sea Symphony' for the first time - seems like a very fine performance notwithstanding a rather shrill and in-your-face soprano soloist:
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=220.0;attach=88123;image)

Nice, Jeffrey. 8) I suppose it wouldn't hurt for me to revisit the Elder cycle. I wrote a scathing review of it on Amazon, but, in hindsight, perhaps I'm just being too harsh here. I generally like Elder's conducting. His Elgar is fantastic for example.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on June 26, 2022, 01:55:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 25, 2022, 08:39:55 AM
Yes, 'too much vibrato' is more accurate; I found it really off-putting, although it did not stop me enjoying the symphony.

'Composers own recording'  :o
I wasn't aware that there was a recording of VW conducting 'A Sea Symphony'. Do you mean Dona Nobis Pacem?

Yes I do! Sorry wasn't thinking the post through properly, didn't check it before hitting the button
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 03:45:43 AM
I've recently listened to all Vaughan Williams' symphonies, on the Boult box set, besides Elder's recordings of the Pastoral Symphony, 4th, 5th and Sinfonia Antartica (on youtube) for a comparison, after a long time I didn't deal with those works. I admit I was struck more than I had thought by the beauty of those compositions, Boult is an great conductor and an excellent interpreter of Vaughan Williams' music; he handled instruments, dynamics and rhythms very well. I appreciated all of them, but I particularly enjoyed the Sea Symphony (very glorious and powerfully emotional), London Symphony (darker toned, meditative and of rich orchestral colour), the Pastoral Symphony (somberly poetical and evocative), and especially the Sinfonia Antartica, that is a very captivating work and beautifully depicting the melancholy, mysterious and tragic atmospheres of the subject. Elder's interpretations are terribly good too in my opinion, maybe just the Moderato pesante in the Pastoral is a bit too fast as tempo, but compelling anyway; I'll provably go on with his other recordings to complete the set and have a better opinion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2022, 06:14:45 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 03:45:43 AM
I've recently listened to all Vaughan Williams' symphonies, on the Boult box set, besides Elder's recordings of the Pastoral Symphony, 4th, 5th and Sinfonia Antartica (on youtube) for a comparison, after a long time I didn't deal with those works. I admit I was struck more than I had thought by the beauty of those compositions, Boult is an great conductor and an excellent interpreter of Vaughan Williams' music; he handled instruments, dynamics and rhythms very well. I appreciated all of them, but I particularly enjoyed the Sea Symphony (very glorious and powerfully emotional), London Symphony (darker toned, meditative and of rich orchestral colour), the Pastoral Symphony (somberly poetical and evocative), and especially the Sinfonia Antartica, that is a very captivating work and beautifully depicting the melancholy, mysterious and tragic atmospheres of the subject. Elder's interpretations are terribly good too in my opinion, maybe just the Moderato pesante in the Pastoral is a bit too fast as tempo, but compelling anyway; I'll provably go on with his other recordings to complete the set and have a better opinion.
Boult recorded the VW symphonies twice, for Decca (and Everest for No.9) and for EMI/Warner. I assume that you are referring to the latter set (EMI). Boult conducted the premieres of symphonies 3,4 and 6 and had a special authority with VW. I'd recommend Elder's excellent recording of 'Job'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 27, 2022, 06:57:17 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 03:45:43 AM
I've recently listened to all Vaughan Williams' symphonies, on the Boult box set, besides Elder's recordings of the Pastoral Symphony, 4th, 5th and Sinfonia Antartica (on youtube) for a comparison, after a long time I didn't deal with those works. I admit I was struck more than I had thought by the beauty of those compositions, Boult is an great conductor and an excellent interpreter of Vaughan Williams' music; he handled instruments, dynamics and rhythms very well. I appreciated all of them, but I particularly enjoyed the Sea Symphony (very glorious and powerfully emotional), London Symphony (darker toned, meditative and of rich orchestral colour), the Pastoral Symphony (somberly poetical and evocative), and especially the Sinfonia Antartica, that is a very captivating work and beautifully depicting the melancholy, mysterious and tragic atmospheres of the subject. Elder's interpretations are terribly good too in my opinion, maybe just the Moderato pesante in the Pastoral is a bit too fast as tempo, but compelling anyway; I'll provably go on with his other recordings to complete the set and have a better opinion.

Nice!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 27, 2022, 07:20:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 27, 2022, 06:14:45 AM
Boult recorded the VW symphonies twice, for Decca (and Everest for No.9) and for EMI/Warner. I assume that you are referring to the latter set (EMI). Boult conducted the premieres of symphonies 3,4 and 6 and had a special authority with VW. I'd recommend Elder's excellent recording of 'Job'.

Job was dedicated to him as well. Not only RVW, for me Boult is the last word for Elgar and Holst too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2022, 07:22:39 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 27, 2022, 07:20:38 AM
Job was dedicated to him as well. Not only RVW, for me Boult is the last word for Elgar and Holst too.
I agree and arguably the finest Moeran Symphony as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 07:39:02 AM
It's nice to see praise for Boult and he was, indeed, one of the finest interpreters of RVW and Elgar for example. But, thankfully, he's not the only voice in this music. I couldn't imagine being without Previn, Thomson, Hickox et. al. in RVW for example. Since I've received the last installment of the RVW Elder series today, I'll be giving this cycle a fresh listen today (and parts of tomorrow), so if I feel compelled, I'll post some impressions here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 08:14:57 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 03:45:43 AM
I've recently listened to all Vaughan Williams' symphonies, on the Boult box set, besides Elder's recordings of the Pastoral Symphony, 4th, 5th and Sinfonia Antartica (on youtube) for a comparison, after a long time I didn't deal with those works. I admit I was struck more than I had thought by the beauty of those compositions, Boult is an great conductor and an excellent interpreter of Vaughan Williams' music; he handled instruments, dynamics and rhythms very well. I appreciated all of them, but I particularly enjoyed the Sea Symphony (very glorious and powerfully emotional), London Symphony (darker toned, meditative and of rich orchestral colour), the Pastoral Symphony (somberly poetical and evocative), and especially the Sinfonia Antartica, that is a very captivating work and beautifully depicting the melancholy, mysterious and tragic atmospheres of the subject. Elder's interpretations are terribly good too in my opinion, maybe just the Moderato pesante in the Pastoral is a bit too fast as tempo, but compelling anyway; I'll provably go on with his other recordings to complete the set and have a better opinion.

This is great to read, Ilaria. 8)

I do want to write a few things in response to what you wrote, I cannot imagine my life without RVW's music. He was one of the first composers I ever got into (I got into Sibelius and Nielsen around this time as well) and he spoke to me much more immediately than any composer I've encountered. It's like I felt him in everything I heard. The passion, atmospheric beauty and lyricism of his music is what drew me in first. As time wore on, I have explored so many other composers' music, but I always come back to RVW at some point or another.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2022, 08:53:29 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 08:14:57 AM
This is great to read, Ilaria. 8)

I do want to write a few things in response to what you wrote, I cannot imagine my life without RVW's music. He was one of the first composers I ever got into (I got into Sibelius and Nielsen around this time as well) and he spoke to me much more immediately than any composer I've encountered. It's like I felt him in everything I heard. The passion, atmospheric beauty and lyricism of his music is what drew me in first. As time wore on, I have explored so many other composers' music, but I always come back to RVW at some point or another.
Very nicely put John. That is largely my experience as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 09:24:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 27, 2022, 06:14:45 AM
Boult recorded the VW symphonies twice, for Decca (and Everest for No.9) and for EMI/Warner. I assume that you are referring to the latter set (EMI). Boult conducted the premieres of symphonies 3,4 and 6 and had a special authority with VW. I'd recommend Elder's excellent recording of 'Job'.

Yes, I was referring to the EMI set. Thank you for the suggestion, I've found Elder's version of Job along with the recording of the Songs of Travel, so now I'm going to have a listen to it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 10:30:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 08:14:57 AM
This is great to read, Ilaria. 8)

I do want to write a few things in response to what you wrote, I cannot imagine my life without RVW's music. He was one of the first composers I ever got into (I got into Sibelius and Nielsen around this time as well) and he spoke to me much more immediately than any composer I've encountered. It's like I felt him in everything I heard. The passion, atmospheric beauty and lyricism of his music is what drew me in first. As time wore on, I have explored so many other composers' music, but I always come back to RVW at some point or another.

I certainly agree! I approached RVW's music because at the time I had read about some similarities between his style and Holst's, as Holst was one of my favourites; but then I learnt to appreciate him as distinct composer for the same qualities you mentioned, his works definitely express lyricism, depth and poetical suggestion beyond an appearance of simplicity.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 10:44:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 27, 2022, 08:53:29 AM
Very nicely put John. That is largely my experience as well.

Thanks, Jeffrey. 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 10:53:47 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 10:30:21 AM
I certainly agree! I approached RVW's music because at the time I had read about some similarities between his style and Holst's, as Holst was one of my favourites; but then I learnt to appreciate him as distinct composer for the same qualities you mentioned, his works definitely express lyricism, depth and poetical suggestion beyond an appearance of simplicity.

There are some similarities to Holst, but these two composers don't really sound anything alike. Both composers could write some of the most gnarly, in-your-face modernistic music imaginable, but their individual "brands" (for lack of a better term) were totally singular and unique to them. If you play Holst's Mars from The Planets and the opening passage of RVW's 4th symphony, someone would definitely understand what I mean. Of course, these are one of many examples of both composers pushing the envelope. The point you make about an outward appearance of simplicity is an interesting one and this is one of the qualities that I think works in RVW's favor in that his music is accessible to anyone who has the ears for it, but he never downplays his intentions with the music and the complexity that can happen within it. I was first struck by the surface of his music, but when I dove deeper into it, I realized what a complicated person he was underneath this more welcoming musical exterior.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on June 27, 2022, 11:07:56 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 03:45:43 AM
...Boult is an great conductor and an excellent interpreter of Vaughan Williams' music; he handled instruments, dynamics and rhythms very well. I appreciated all of them, but I particularly enjoyed the Sea Symphony (very glorious and powerfully emotional)...

I share these sentiments completely. I've listened to any number of recordings of Symphony No. 1 since 1985 - all by conductors with solid RVW credentials - and imho none match Boult on EMI.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 11:13:32 AM
Quote from: LKB on June 27, 2022, 11:07:56 AM
I share these sentiments completely. I've listened to any number of recordings of Symphony No. 1 since 1985 - all by conductors with solid RVW credentials - and imho none match Boult on EMI.

I can certainly agree with this, too. A Sea Symphony from Boult on EMI blows me out of my chair --- I never heard a more powerful and mesmerizing introduction to this symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on June 27, 2022, 11:21:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 11:13:32 AM
I can certainly agree with this, too. A Sea Symphony from Boult on EMI blows me out of my chair --- I never heard a more powerful and mesmerizing introduction to this symphony.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the choral sound is, l think, the crucial element. Full, balanced tone with the greatest possible depth is a must, and Boult has that. It is most present at the end of the symphony, and the result is Infinity itself.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 11:24:01 AM
Quote from: LKB on June 27, 2022, 11:21:48 AM
As I've mentioned elsewhere, the choral sound is, l think, the crucial element. Full, balanced tone with the greatest possible depth is a must, and Boult has that. It is most present at the end of the symphony, and the result is Infinity itself.

Yep, a fine sound he gets from all involved!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 27, 2022, 11:27:34 AM
There's no denying that Holst and Vaughan Williams shared common musical ground.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 11:45:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 27, 2022, 11:27:34 AM
There's no denying that Holst and Vaughan Williams shared common musical ground.

Absolutely and they were great friends much like Shostakovich and Weinberg were. I'd love to read your take on the individual styles of Shostakovich and Weinberg. Of course, this would be for another thread, but it will be interesting to read a composer's take on this.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 27, 2022, 12:41:01 PM
Jeffrey, your In box is full.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 02:38:13 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 10:53:47 AM
There are some similarities to Holst, but these two composers don't really sound anything alike. Both composers could write some of the most gnarly, in-your-face modernistic music imaginable, but their individual "brands" (for lack of a better term) were totally singular and unique to them. If you play Holst's Mars from The Planets and the opening passage of RVW's 4th symphony, someone would definitely understand what I mean. Of course, these are one of many examples of both composers pushing the envelope. The point you make about an outward appearance of simplicity is an interesting one and this is one of the qualities that I think works in RVW's favor in that his music is accessible to anyone who has the ears for it, but he never downplays his intentions with the music and the complexity that can happen within it. I was first struck by the surface of his music, but when I dove deeper into it, I realized what a complicated person he was underneath this more welcoming musical exterior.

Yes, I think I understand what you mean; using the example you pointed out, both Holst's Mars and the opening passage of RVW's 4th are quite dissonant and have very bold harmonic textures, since the first shows a tonality taken to extremes, even not clearly defined but in a way of polytonality, while the second experiments four-note motifs that come close to serialism; but in spite of everything, they have their peculiarities, their marks, that make them absolutely recognizable from each other. This sounds Holst and that sounds Vaughan Williams.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 03:51:56 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 02:38:13 PM
Yes, I think I understand what you mean; using the example you pointed out, both Holst's Mars and the opening passage of RVW's 4th are quite dissonant and have very bold harmonic textures, since the first shows a tonality taken to extremes, even not clearly defined but in a way of polytonality, while the second experiments four-note motifs that come close to serialism; but in spite of everything, they have their peculiarities, their marks, that make them absolutely recognizable from each other. This sounds Holst and that sounds Vaughan Williams.

Yes, indeed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2022, 10:16:39 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 27, 2022, 12:41:01 PM
Jeffrey, your In box is full.
Thanks Karl. Assuming that you mean this Jeffrey, as a subscriber, I should have unlimited emails. I need to check this out.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2022, 10:24:16 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 09:24:17 AM
Yes, I was referring to the EMI set. Thank you for the suggestion, I've found Elder's version of Job along with the recording of the Songs of Travel, so now I'm going to have a listen to it.
Excellent! I hope that you enjoy it. I like the Songs of Travel as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2022, 10:33:30 PM
There's an argument that VW's 6th Symphony was, in some way, a tribute to Holst. The menacing second movement shows affinity to 'Mars' and the fade-out ending, which drifts out into nothingness echoes the end of 'Neptune'. Both works were composed after world wars.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 27, 2022, 11:32:49 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 27, 2022, 02:38:13 PM
Yes, I think I understand what you mean; using the example you pointed out, both Holst's Mars and the opening passage of RVW's 4th are quite dissonant and have very bold harmonic textures, since the first shows a tonality taken to extremes, even not clearly defined but in a way of polytonality, while the second experiments four-note motifs that come close to serialism; but in spite of everything, they have their peculiarities, their marks, that make them absolutely recognizable from each other. This sounds Holst and that sounds Vaughan Williams.

Much as I love both Holst and RVW neither of them pushed the envelope of harmony in their music.  Mars is dissonant rather than polytonal and the reason for the dissonance is the picture it seeks to paint.  Compared to what was being written elsewhere around the world at that time Holst's music is by the measure of how experimental it is pretty conservative.  That is NOT a criticism - too many composers have sacrificed themselves on the altar of experimentalism.  Remember that one time Holst DID try to be truly polytonal - the finale of the Fugal Concerto - the general comment would how non-dissonant it was!  Also RVW 4 is in no way a serial/atonal composition - I've never heard anyone suggest that before.  The tension in the work is created by the gravitational pull between the tonal centres with F minor only "winning" at the literal end.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 28, 2022, 12:44:55 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 27, 2022, 11:32:49 PM
Much as I love both Holst and RVW neither of them pushed the envelope of harmony in their music.  Mars is dissonant rather than polytonal and the reason for the dissonance is the picture it seeks to paint.  Compared to what was being written elsewhere around the world at that time Holst's music is by the measure of how experimental it is pretty conservative.  That is NOT a criticism - too many composers have sacrificed themselves on the altar of experimentalism.  Remember that one time Holst DID try to be truly polytonal - the finale of the Fugal Concerto - the general comment would how non-dissonant it was!  Also RVW 4 is in no way a serial/atonal composition - I've never heard anyone suggest that before.  The tension in the work is created by the gravitational pull between the tonal centres with F minor only "winning" at the literal end.

Of course they are not serial or atonal compositions, although one source of inspiration for The Planets may have been Schönberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra; instead Vaughan Williams said that Schönberg's music meant nothing to him.
Anyway the key for Mars should be in C, but there's much tonic competition in the movement and in same ways it could be considered almost polytonal, despite Holst never broke tonality; while in RVW's 4th for example, in the opening passage, the composer used a four-tone motif that developed from the beginning dissonace; that's why I said that it came close to serialism, but it's not serial.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 28, 2022, 02:08:37 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 28, 2022, 12:44:55 AM
Of course they are not serial or atonal compositions, although one source of inspiration for The Planets may have been Schönberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra; instead Vaughan Williams said that Schönberg's music meant nothing to him.
Anyway the key for Mars should be in C, but there's much tonic competition in the movement and in same ways it could be considered almost polytonal, despite Holst never broke tonality; while in RVW's 4th for example, in the opening passage, the composer used a four-tone motif that developed from the beginning dissonace; that's why I said that it came close to serialism, but it's not serial.

Forgive me if I sound pedantic but I think you are conflating atonalism and serialism.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 28, 2022, 04:01:05 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 28, 2022, 02:08:37 AM
Forgive me if I sound pedantic but I think you are conflating atonalism and serialism.

I'm not conflating them, I know the difference; atonalism doesn't necessarily lead to serialism as well as serialism doesn't necessarily lead to atonality. All I wanted to say from the beginning was that Vaughan Williams and Holst shared some similarities, but anyway they always kept their peculiar marks that made their music clearly recognizable from each other, even when both of them used a bolder harmonic language, as for example in Mars or the 4th Symphony. I didn't say that Holst was polytonal, just that in Mars there was tonic competition in the sections of the movement that made tonality sound not always defined, so almost what we might call a sort of non-planned polytonality, although its tonality is in C (it sometimes happens in some Mahler's symphonies too, but certainly Mahler can't be considered atonal for that); I didn't say RVW was a serial composer either, just because at times in the 4th he experimented four-tone motifs in the first movement (I didn't mean he came close to Schönberg).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2022, 05:37:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 27, 2022, 10:16:39 PM
Thanks Karl. Assuming that you mean this Jeffrey, as a subscriber, I should have unlimited emails. I need to check this out.

I did indeed mean your esteemed self.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 28, 2022, 07:36:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2022, 10:53:47 AM
There are some similarities to Holst, but these two composers don't really sound anything alike. Both composers could write some of the most gnarly, in-your-face modernistic music imaginable, but their individual "brands" (for lack of a better term) were totally singular and unique to them. If you play Holst's Mars from The Planets and the opening passage of RVW's 4th symphony, someone would definitely understand what I mean. Of course, these are one of many examples of both composers pushing the envelope. The point you make about an outward appearance of simplicity is an interesting one and this is one of the qualities that I think works in RVW's favor in that his music is accessible to anyone who has the ears for it, but he never downplays his intentions with the music and the complexity that can happen within it. I was first struck by the surface of his music, but when I dove deeper into it, I realized what a complicated person he was underneath this more welcoming musical exterior.

Mars is unique in Holst's output as it is as if written by another composer. Holst and Vaughan Williams shared a love for English folk music and here it is where to look for similarities between the two, I feel. I love Holst's "Somerset Rhapsody" which actually meets all the criteria of your perceptive analysis of RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on June 28, 2022, 08:11:23 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 28, 2022, 07:36:17 AM
Mars is unique in Holst's output as it is as if written by another composer. Holst and Vaughan Williams shared a love for English folk music and here it is where to look for similarities between the two, I feel. I love Holst's "Somerset Rhapsody" which actually meets all the criteria of your perceptive analysis of RVW.

Ah, but I try not to overlook their Modernist tendencies. As was written earlier, there's a lot of common ground between them, but both composers couldn't be more different from each other in terms of their musical languages. But, yes, English folk music certainly played a large part in both of their sound-worlds. It's kind of like what Bartók and Kodály were doing. Both composers were also close friends and shared musical thoughts with the other. Also, while there may be some overlap in their treatment of folk material, both of these composers had their musical paths and language that separated them. Bartók ended up going more more in the Modernist direction while Kodály continued his synthesis of folk music and Impressionism.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2022, 08:27:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 28, 2022, 08:11:23 AM
Ah, but I try not to overlook their Modernist tendencies. As was written earlier, there's a lot of common ground between them, but both composers couldn't be more different from each other in terms of their musical languages.

I don't know, John. If I listen to, say, Egdon Heath and the Tallis Fantasia, I'm not hearing the work of two composers whose musical language is so utterly different as you appear to suggest.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 29, 2022, 01:08:02 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 27, 2022, 12:41:01 PM
Jeffrey, your In box is full.
OT
Hi Karl
Rob has kindly sorted it out so it's up and running again.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 29, 2022, 04:48:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 29, 2022, 01:08:02 AM
OT
Hi Karl
Rob has kindly sorted it out so it's up and running again.
:)

Splendid!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 29, 2022, 10:59:25 PM
Extended review of the Elder cycle

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Jun/VWilliams-syms-CDHLD7557.htm

I agree with him that 1 and 3 are highlights. I listened to 2 and 8 the other day and did not find them to be anything special, although the reviewer thinks highly of No.8. I haven't listened to 5,7 or 9 yet.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 30, 2022, 12:39:56 AM
I've rid myself of the temptation to get the Elder set. Not that I put any faith in reviews or don't have high expectations. The question is "when will I ever have time to listen to it?"

I did like Brabbins in A London Symphony, maybe I'll pick up a few more of those, as they come out. And, conveniently, it is possible to purchase the symphony recordings without the uninteresting fillers ordering lossless downloads directly from Hyperion. I'm a mind the get the recording of Symphony No 5.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 12:47:07 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 30, 2022, 12:39:56 AM
I've rid myself of the temptation to get the Elder set. Not that I put any faith in reviews or don't have high expectations. The question is "when will I ever have time to listen to it?"

I did like Brabbins in A London Symphony, maybe I'll pick up a few more of those, as they come out. And, conveniently, it is possible to purchase the symphony recordings without the uninteresting fillers ordering lossless downloads directly from Hyperion. I'm a mind the get the recording of Symphony No 5.
I'm working my way through the Elder cycle now. 'A Pastoral Symphony' is beautifully performed. I think that, so far, the Brabbins set is an excellent one, better than Manze or Elder as a whole. I quite like some of the fillers like the 'Variations for Orchestra'. Brabbins also uses the better (IMO) 1920 version of 'A London Symphony'. I'm revisiting the Hickox recordings as well. Listening to Elder's 'A Pastoral Symphony' at the moment, I think that he brings out the underlying tragedy of the work with some beautiful instrumental solos.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 30, 2022, 01:33:44 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 12:47:07 AM
I'm working my way through the Elder cycle now. 'A Pastoral Symphony' is beautifully performed. I think that, so far, the Brabbins set is an excellent one, better than Manze or Elder as a whole. I quite like some of the fillers like the 'Variations for Orchestra'. Brabbins also uses the better (IMO) 1920 version of 'A London Symphony'. I'm revisiting the Hickox recordings as well. Listening to Elder's 'A Pastoral Symphony' at the moment, I think that he brings out the underlying tragedy of the work with some beautiful instrumental solos.

I do agree that the cuts RVW made to A London Symphony after the 1920 edition are regrettable. Nevertheless RVW left my favorite passages in, and my attraction to the Brabbins recording is that he did beautifully in that primary material. But I'm left wondering if RVW tinkered with those passages that remained, and that my enjoyment of Brabbins' recording is attributable to more opulent orchestration in the 1920 version, compared with the final version. It is possible to identify the passages that were cut (with your help) but I've never seen any comment on possible changes in scoring in the post 1920 revisions.

In any case, I'm curious to hear Brabbins in the 5th symphony.

(One minor question, I haven't seen the Brabbins recording of the 1920 A London Symphony on Amazon.com. I wonder if there is an issue with the 1920 version being public domain in Europe, but not in the U.S., due to complexities of copyright laws.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 30, 2022, 01:57:29 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 30, 2022, 01:33:44 AM
I do agree that the cuts RVW made to A London Symphony after the 1920 edition are regrettable. Nevertheless RVW left my favorite passages in, and my attraction to the Brabbins recording is that he did beautifully in that primary material. But I'm left wondering if RVW tinkered with those passages that remained, and that my enjoyment of Brabbins' recording is attributable to more opulent orchestration in the 1920 version, compared with the final version. It is possible to identify the passages that were cut (with your help) but I've never seen any comment on possible changes in scoring in the post 1920 revisions.

In any case, I'm curious to hear Brabbins in the 5th symphony.

(One minor question, I haven't seen the Brabbins recording of the 1920 A London Symphony on Amazon.com. I wonder if there is an issue with the 1920 version being public domain in Europe, but not in the U.S., due to complexities of copyright laws.)

As far as I am aware there are no changes to the actual orchestration - they were purely structural.  The orchestra used in the final version remains large; triple woodwind, full brass including parts for a pair of cornets as well as the usual 2 trumpets, harp and fairly extensive percussion.  In performance RVW would occasionally suggest orchestral tweaks "on the fly" to aid clarity in a particular performance or whatever but these did not make it into revised scores (Symphony 6 is the exception with the original Scherzo published and recorded before RVW changed his mind).  The number of revisions to Symphony 2 is pretty unique in this composer's output.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 04:00:20 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 30, 2022, 01:33:44 AM
I do agree that the cuts RVW made to A London Symphony after the 1920 edition are regrettable. Nevertheless RVW left my favorite passages in, and my attraction to the Brabbins recording is that he did beautifully in that primary material. But I'm left wondering if RVW tinkered with those passages that remained, and that my enjoyment of Brabbins' recording is attributable to more opulent orchestration in the 1920 version, compared with the final version. It is possible to identify the passages that were cut (with your help) but I've never seen any comment on possible changes in scoring in the post 1920 revisions.

In any case, I'm curious to hear Brabbins in the 5th symphony.

(One minor question, I haven't seen the Brabbins recording of the 1920 A London Symphony on Amazon.com. I wonder if there is an issue with the 1920 version being public domain in Europe, but not in the U.S., due to complexities of copyright laws.)
Which is your favourite passage? Mine is just before the end; it had sadly disappeared by 1936.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on June 30, 2022, 06:15:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 04:00:20 AM
Which is your favourite passage? Mine is just before the end; it had sadly disappeared by 1936.

I like that moment too.  The ending is full of shifting colors and moods, and I can understand from a purely musical point of view, it belabors the point, but there are lots of moments of magic in the earlier versions that are sadly lost.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 30, 2022, 08:20:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 04:00:20 AM
Which is your favourite passage? Mine is just before the end; it had sadly disappeared by 1936.

I may be a cretin, but I have never been attracted to Vaughan Williams' tendency to write movements that end in a quiet passage. I'm straining my memory, but I'd say my favorite passages in A London Symphony are the climax in the second half of the second movement and the boisterous march theme in the finale.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 09:44:24 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 30, 2022, 08:20:36 AM
I may be a cretin, but I have never been attracted to Vaughan Williams' tendency to write movements that end in a quiet passage. I'm straining my memory, but I'd say my favorite passages in A London Symphony are the climax in the second half of the second movement and the boisterous march theme in the finale.
Why does that make you a 'cretin'? It sounds like a perfectly valid point of view to me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 09:47:49 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 30, 2022, 06:15:28 AM
I like that moment too.  The ending is full of shifting colors and moods, and I can understand from a purely musical point of view, it belabors the point, but there are lots of moments of magic in the earlier versions that are sadly lost.
Totally agree - I just wish that he had kept that most moving section in! I can no longer listen to the 'final' version without being acutely aware of that missing section - it spoils the symphony for me. Even Michael Kennedy said that the excision meant that the transition to the Epilogue was too abrupt.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 30, 2022, 10:19:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 09:44:24 AM
Why does that make you a 'cretin'? It sounds like a perfectly valid point of view to me.

Just because I don't appreciate the subtle bit, only the crowd-pleasing parts.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 12:47:53 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 30, 2022, 10:19:40 AM
Just because I don't appreciate the subtle bit, only the crowd-pleasing parts.
I don't see it that way at all - we all see/hear things differently. There is no 'right way' to listen to a VW symphony or any other piece of music. My tastes are far from subtle - Ravel's 'Bolero' for example.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 30, 2022, 01:21:53 PM
I piece of musical trivia I remember is an assertion I read that Sibelius's 4th (1911) is the first symphony to end other than f or louder (it ends mf).

But VW's London is certainly the first symphony to end niente.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2022, 01:41:32 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 12:47:53 PM
I don't see it that way at all - we all see/hear things differently. There is no 'right way' to listen to a VW symphony or any other piece of music. My tastes are far from subtle - Ravel's 'Bolero' for example.

Psshaw!! You say that as if there were no subtleties to appreciate in the Boléro!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 01:56:33 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 30, 2022, 01:41:32 PM
Psshaw!! You say that as if there were no subtleties to appreciate in the Boléro!!

Yes, you are quite right Karl - Ravel was one of the most sophisticated composers (after all, VW went to study with him) - it is just that some people are a bit snooty about Boléro but I have always liked the work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2022, 02:06:59 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 01:56:33 PM
Yes, you are quite right Karl - Ravel was one of the most sophisticated composers (after all, VW went to study with him) - it is just that some people are a bit snooty about Boléro but I have always liked the work.

Once in our Music Theory class at Wooster (the final quarter of the Theory sequence being a survey of 20th-c. music) a number of the students were dismissive of the Boléro (I don't think I was one, since the piece would mostly have been new to me at the time) and Jack Gallagher challenged them/us: Okay, you think you know all about the piece, sing back the four phrases of the tune to me. It was a great mental exercise.


And, of course, Shostakovich would not have taken the piece for a model, had he not admired it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 02:21:04 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 30, 2022, 02:06:59 PM
Once in our Music Theory class at Wooster (the final quarter of the Theory sequence being a survey of 20th-c. music) a number of the students were dismissive of the Boléro (I don't think I was one, since the piece would mostly have been new to me at the time) and Jack Gallagher challenged them/us: Okay, you think you know all about the piece, sing back the four phrases of the tune to me. It was a great mental exercise.


And, of course, Shostakovich would not have taken the piece for a model, had he not admired it.
Good points Karl. Past my bedtime here. Bonne Nuit!  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 30, 2022, 11:04:40 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 30, 2022, 01:21:53 PM
I piece of musical trivia I remember is an assertion I read that Sibelius's 4th (1911) is the first symphony to end other than f or louder (it ends mf).

But VW's London is certainly the first symphony to end niente.

Sibelius 1 ends quietly - the Pathetique effectively niente as the last dynamic is pppp(!) - and many more I'm sure if I put my mind to it - so that's a bit of trivia for the bin!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 01, 2022, 12:43:23 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 30, 2022, 01:21:53 PM
I piece of musical trivia I remember is an assertion I read that Sibelius's 4th (1911) is the first symphony to end other than f or louder (it ends mf).

But VW's London is certainly the first symphony to end niente.

Haydn's Farewell symphony (No 45) ends with just two muted violins playing
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Jo498 on July 01, 2022, 01:06:28 AM
The first famous romantic symphony with a quiet ending was probably Brahms' 3rd (1880s). The Haydn Farewell ist obviously a century earlier but it was more a "novelty" and in any case before symphonies usually had a dramatic arch, usually ending in a triumphal (or certainly emphatic) closure.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on July 01, 2022, 08:39:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 01:56:33 PM
Yes, you are quite right Karl - Ravel was one of the most sophisticated composers (after all, VW went to study with him) - it is just that some people are a bit snooty about Boléro but I have always liked the work.

A few years ago I attended a musical appreciation club in our area. I only went the once but that is not here or there. They played a recording of Boléro and after it finished members were asked to stand up and comment. A lady was first with "Every time I listen to Boléro I hear something new". A clever dick (man) retorted "How? When it is the same music repeated over and over" The audience cruelly burst out laughing. I felt very sorry for her and understood what she meant.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 01, 2022, 08:44:35 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 01, 2022, 08:39:47 AM
A few years ago I attended a musical appreciation club in our area. I only went the once but that is not here or there. They played a recording of Boléro and after it finished members were asked to stand up and comment. A lady was first with "Every time I listen to Boléro I hear something new". A clever dick (man) retorted "How? When it is the same music repeated over and over" The audience cruelly burst out laughing. I felt very sorry for her and understood what she meant.

Huboons!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: amw on July 01, 2022, 10:37:03 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 30, 2022, 01:21:53 PM
I piece of musical trivia I remember is an assertion I read that Sibelius's 4th (1911) is the first symphony to end other than f or louder (it ends mf).

But VW's London is certainly the first symphony to end niente.
Possibly it is the first symphony that doesn't end either loudly or quietly (and one of very few to end mf or mp—I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2022, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 28, 2022, 08:27:26 AM
I don't know, John. If I listen to, say, Egdon Heath and the Tallis Fantasia, I'm not hearing the work of two composers whose musical language is so utterly different as you appear to suggest.

Yes, I'm sure there are parallels these two works stylistically. I guess my whole point is they have their own thought processes and ways of approaching their own music that distinguishes them for the other. There's a certain lyricism in RVW for example that is instantly recognizable. Just as there's a rhythmic element in Holst that I find distinctive. Anyway, I never said there weren't similarities between the two composers just as there were some shared similarities between Debussy and Ravel or Shostakovich and Weinberg. I know the composer in question when I hear their music and that's all I'm saying.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 01, 2022, 09:37:34 PM
OT
The thing about Sibelius's 4th Symphony is that it's the only symphony I know which doesn't end either loudly or softly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: André on July 03, 2022, 07:23:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 01, 2022, 09:37:34 PM
OT
The thing about Sibelius's 4th Symphony is that it's the only symphony I know which doesn't end either loudly or softly.

True. The 4th doesn't have a conclusion, it just ends.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 04, 2022, 12:25:54 AM
Quote from: André on July 03, 2022, 07:23:01 AM
True. The 4th doesn't have a conclusion, it just ends.
Yes, exactly!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 04, 2022, 05:43:38 AM
Quote from: André on July 03, 2022, 07:23:01 AM
True. The 4th doesn't have a conclusion, it just ends.

Sibelius is a master at endings.  They're all so well judged even when it's ambivalent. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 04, 2022, 06:03:44 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 04, 2022, 05:43:38 AM
Sibelius is a master at endings.  They're all so well judged even when it's ambivalent.
I agree!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2022, 01:15:27 AM
Back to VW. I'm currently greatly enjoying this CD of two poetic, atmospheric and reflective works from later on in VW's composing career. They make a very nice programme:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 06, 2022, 01:46:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2022, 01:15:27 AM
Back to VW. I'm currently greatly enjoying this CD of two poetic, atmospheric and reflective works from later on in VW's composing career. They make a very nice programme:
(//)

Perhaps I should give An Oxford Elegy another try, it is years since I last heard it. I am not keen on works with a spoken narration.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2022, 01:58:28 AM
Quote from: Biffo on July 06, 2022, 01:46:05 AM
Perhaps I should give An Oxford Elegy another try, it is years since I last heard it. I am not keen on works with a spoken narration.
Yes, your not the only one Biffo. The narration is quite recessed in the Centaur recording (not like Jack May on Nimbus who sounds like a General barking out military instructions) which allows me to soak up and enjoy the overall atmosphere of the piece. Oddly enough I often enjoy works which include a narration, like Copland's 'Lincoln Portrait' or some versions of Sinfonia Antartica (Boult/Decca, Previn/RCA).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2022, 06:14:20 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.5 (RPO, Gibson)
A fine, moving and IMO most underrated performance.
I have it on an original HMV Series CD, coupled with Berglund's recording of Symphony No.6. Two fine Sibelian performances. This was one of the best (alongside the Moeran Symphony, Dilkes, Ireland and Bax) releases in that fine old series - now it's all popular classics at HMV. Sorry, I sound like a terrible snob!

Any other views on this performance?
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 06, 2022, 08:11:20 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2022, 06:14:20 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.5 (RPO, Gibson)
A fine, moving and IMO most underrated performance.
I have it on an original HMV Series CD, coupled with Berglund's recording of Symphony No.6. Two fine Sibelian performances. This was one of the best (alongside the Moeran Symphony, Dilkes, Ireland and Bax) releases in that fine old series - now it's all popular classics at HMV. Sorry, I sound like a terrible snob!

Any other views on this performance?
(//)

Listening to it now on Spotify - woodwinds sound too bright and forward but that could be Spotify. It now only seems to be available as part of a two-disc set with the Berglund 4 & 6; as I already have them in the Warner Berglund Icon set it is a bit of a non-starter. The album cover has wasps on it, presumably because it also contains the Aristophanic Suite, all 8'35 of it.

I will hunt round a bit more as it sounds like a fine performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2022, 11:53:38 AM
Quote from: Biffo on July 06, 2022, 08:11:20 AM
Listening to it now on Spotify - woodwinds sound too bright and forward but that could be Spotify. It now only seems to be available as part of a two-disc set with the Berglund 4 & 6; as I already have them in the Warner Berglund Icon set it is a bit of a non-starter. The album cover has wasps on it, presumably because it also contains the Aristophanic Suite, all 8'35 of it.

I will hunt round a bit more as it sounds like a fine performance.
Yes it's the same recording as in the 'Wasps' set. I much prefer this cover:

(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 06, 2022, 04:32:00 PM
I listened to Leonard Bernstein's Symphony No. 4 with the NYPO just now.  As expected, this is a very fine performance full of structural finesse and nuance.  My favorite is Boult's 1953 recording with London Philharmonic. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2022, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 06, 2022, 04:32:00 PM
I listened to Leonard Bernstein's Symphony No. 4 with the NYPO just now.  As expected, this is a very fine performance full of structural finesse and nuance.  My favorite is Boult's 1953 recording with London Philharmonic.
I totally agree. I originally had the LP version. I like the LP cover image. I'm sorry that Bernstein never AFAIK recorded the 6th Symphony.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 07, 2022, 01:08:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2022, 11:53:38 AM
Yes it's the same recording as in the 'Wasps' set. I much prefer this cover:

(//)

The 'Wasps' set has too much duplication for me. Presto have it as a lossless download but they are rather naughty - the Berglund and Silvestri items are available separately but you have to buy the whole album to get the Gibson. It is very inexpensive but it still irks me, in any case I would prefer to have it on a CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2022, 04:24:04 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: 'The Lark Ascending' (original version for violin and piano)
This is a wonderful CD of VW's complete works for violin and piano which makes a great programme. Beautifully performed and recorded. The booklet is excellent, featuring a number of photos of VW (see below) and a cover image of the soloists at Leith Hill Place, VW's childhood home.
Sections of the late Violin Sonata reminded me of Shostakovich. I much prefer this performance to the much lauded recent Chandos recording with Jennifer Pike.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 01:19:38 AM
Negative article about VW from the New Statesman (online edition) with my brother's response printed (with his permission) below.

Vaughan Williams' vision of Englishness is not the one we need
The composer dominates the BBC Proms this year, the 150th anniversary of his birth. But if this is our national music, it is a toothless pastiche.
By Matthew Gilley
This year "The Lark Ascending" by Ralph Vaughan Williams was voted Classic FM listeners' favourite piece of classical music (as it was last year, and the one before that, and the one before that). They're not alone in their admiration. A major theme of the BBC Proms this year is the 150th anniversary of the English composer's birth.
Vaughan Williams is venerated for developing a distinctly English style, as opposed to the German-influenced Romanticism that had dominated British music in the 19th century, yet his is a toothless, pastiche Englishness. If, as Michael Sheen suggested in the New Statesman in March, Britain is a divided nation in search of a story, this is a poor one to choose.
One of his main influences was folk music, but in "The Lark Ascending" (first performed in its version for solo violin and orchestra in 1921) and other pieces, it is alluded to only in its most pleasant, uncomplicated form. The solo line swoops and soars, imitating folk melody with little vitality, trapping a living tradition in amber. The "Norfolk Rhapsody No 1" (1906) might make nice hold music for the tourist board, but offers little else.
Vaughan Williams was born to minor aristocracy without the need to ever earn his living. His efforts to create a particularly English music are attractive in theory, but the genteel result cannot speak for the country. If this is our national music, you might fairly ask, what place does it hold for me? He may well have prepared the way for later composers to be English without being so staid, but even among his contemporaries there was better available, such as Ethel Smyth's glorious Mass in D Major (1891), open and generous in its uncertainties, which will be performed at this year's Prom 44 instead. The narrow, exclusive vision of Vaughan Williams' music didn't befit his own time, and it certainly doesn't befit ours.
Vaughan Williams' other great influence was Renaissance choral music, and he sucked its soul in the same way he did with folk music. Prom 2 includes one of his most popular compositions, "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis" (number three on the Classic FM chart), a piece for string orchestra of weightless prettiness that really makes you think, "Gosh, I wish I was listening to Thomas Tallis." (Fortunately you can do that at Prom 50.)
There's an outing in Prom 6 for Vaughan Williams' Fourth Symphony, a darker and more complicated piece, written in the febrile 1930s, which only emphasises the pastoral naivety in the rest of his oeuvre. And yet it still sounds thin when compared with Michael Tippett's dramatic, poignant Fourth Symphony (1977), with which it is paired.
If marking anniversaries and smuggling interesting music in around the ossified canon is what classical programmers think they need to do to sell tickets, it seems a damning indictment of the industry. The strategy lacks creativity or optimism. There are enough composers and enough round numbers that you can find a "significant" anniversary for any occasion, resulting in concerts that only ever look backwards. (More modern music is not immune to this impulse. The minimalist composer Steve Reich has a birthday every year and it invariably comes with a rash of celebratory concerts – though at least he's there to do the celebrating.)
It's also hard to see how this approach serves the BBC's aim, stated in May, to "build new audiences for classical music". There is plenty on at the Proms this year with obvious contemporary appeal (such as Jennifer Walshe's "The Site of an Investigation", an experimental, ingenious work about social media and micro-pollutants, or a Violin Concerto by Missy Mazzoli, a thrilling, vibrant, easy-to-love composer), but they are poorly served by being hidden among the old standards. It is worth seeking them, or any of the other new commissions, out though, even if it takes a bit more effort than finding the classics.
And if you really need some larks in your music, they're there in the UK premiere in Prom 52 of Märchentänze by Thomas Adès.

(My brother's response)
Music is very important to me, especially deriving an emotional narrative from the music I am listening to, and like Matthew Gilley (15 July) I am not a huge fan of either the Lark Ascending or A Norfolk Rhapsody though I am not hostile to them. But to treat those relatively static pieces as summing up Vaughan Williams's oeuvre is false. So is complaining about the thinness of his fourth symphony in relation to the atmosphere of the 'febrile' 1930s. I see it as unrelated to the political atmosphere but rather a unique expression of personal irritability. Also to treat the fourth as a solitary contrast to the rest of his oeuvre is nonsensical. In these days of potential climate disaster and uncaring hedonism, his sixth symphony written in 1948 seems terrifyingly prophetic.
Finally, to place the Tallis Fantasia as part of his more static music is a misreading. Imagine –
•   the introduction of the plucked string theme as Tallis's ghost wandering the earth wondering whether he had done any good;
•   the working up to a climax as Vaughan Williams get increasingly sent by the theme as he writes around it; and
•   the reappearance of the plucked strings and the rhythm change as the ghost realising that and then doing a little pleased dance before ascent to heaven;
and one can derive an emotional narrative equal to that of the most dramatic of symphonies.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 19, 2022, 02:14:06 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 01:19:38 AM
Negative article about VW from the New Statesman (online edition) with my brother's response printed (with his permission) below.

Vaughan Williams' vision of Englishness is not the one we need
The composer dominates the BBC Proms this year, the 150th anniversary of his birth. But if this is our national music, it is a toothless pastiche.
By Matthew Gilley
This year "The Lark Ascending" by Ralph Vaughan Williams was voted Classic FM listeners' favourite piece of classical music (as it was last year, and the one before that, and the one before that). They're not alone in their admiration. A major theme of the BBC Proms this year is the 150th anniversary of the English composer's birth.
Vaughan Williams is venerated for developing a distinctly English style, as opposed to the German-influenced Romanticism that had dominated British music in the 19th century, yet his is a toothless, pastiche Englishness. If, as Michael Sheen suggested in the New Statesman in March, Britain is a divided nation in search of a story, this is a poor one to choose.
One of his main influences was folk music, but in "The Lark Ascending" (first performed in its version for solo violin and orchestra in 1921) and other pieces, it is alluded to only in its most pleasant, uncomplicated form. The solo line swoops and soars, imitating folk melody with little vitality, trapping a living tradition in amber. The "Norfolk Rhapsody No 1" (1906) might make nice hold music for the tourist board, but offers little else.
Vaughan Williams was born to minor aristocracy without the need to ever earn his living. His efforts to create a particularly English music are attractive in theory, but the genteel result cannot speak for the country. If this is our national music, you might fairly ask, what place does it hold for me? He may well have prepared the way for later composers to be English without being so staid, but even among his contemporaries there was better available, such as Ethel Smyth's glorious Mass in D Major (1891), open and generous in its uncertainties, which will be performed at this year's Prom 44 instead. The narrow, exclusive vision of Vaughan Williams' music didn't befit his own time, and it certainly doesn't befit ours.
Vaughan Williams' other great influence was Renaissance choral music, and he sucked its soul in the same way he did with folk music. Prom 2 includes one of his most popular compositions, "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis" (number three on the Classic FM chart), a piece for string orchestra of weightless prettiness that really makes you think, "Gosh, I wish I was listening to Thomas Tallis." (Fortunately you can do that at Prom 50.)
There's an outing in Prom 6 for Vaughan Williams' Fourth Symphony, a darker and more complicated piece, written in the febrile 1930s, which only emphasises the pastoral naivety in the rest of his oeuvre. And yet it still sounds thin when compared with Michael Tippett's dramatic, poignant Fourth Symphony (1977), with which it is paired.
If marking anniversaries and smuggling interesting music in around the ossified canon is what classical programmers think they need to do to sell tickets, it seems a damning indictment of the industry. The strategy lacks creativity or optimism. There are enough composers and enough round numbers that you can find a "significant" anniversary for any occasion, resulting in concerts that only ever look backwards. (More modern music is not immune to this impulse. The minimalist composer Steve Reich has a birthday every year and it invariably comes with a rash of celebratory concerts – though at least he's there to do the celebrating.)
It's also hard to see how this approach serves the BBC's aim, stated in May, to "build new audiences for classical music". There is plenty on at the Proms this year with obvious contemporary appeal (such as Jennifer Walshe's "The Site of an Investigation", an experimental, ingenious work about social media and micro-pollutants, or a Violin Concerto by Missy Mazzoli, a thrilling, vibrant, easy-to-love composer), but they are poorly served by being hidden among the old standards. It is worth seeking them, or any of the other new commissions, out though, even if it takes a bit more effort than finding the classics.
And if you really need some larks in your music, they're there in the UK premiere in Prom 52 of Märchentänze by Thomas Adès.

(My brother's response)
Music is very important to me, especially deriving an emotional narrative from the music I am listening to, and like Matthew Gilley (15 July) I am not a huge fan of either the Lark Ascending or A Norfolk Rhapsody though I am not hostile to them. But to treat those relatively static pieces as summing up Vaughan Williams's oeuvre is false. So is complaining about the thinness of his fourth symphony in relation to the atmosphere of the 'febrile' 1930s. I see it as unrelated to the political atmosphere but rather a unique expression of personal irritability. Also to treat the fourth as a solitary contrast to the rest of his oeuvre is nonsensical. In these days of potential climate disaster and uncaring hedonism, his sixth symphony written in 1948 seems terrifyingly prophetic.
Finally, to place the Tallis Fantasia as part of his more static music is a misreading. Imagine –
•   the introduction of the plucked string theme as Tallis's ghost wandering the earth wondering whether he had done any good;
•   the working up to a climax as Vaughan Williams get increasingly sent by the theme as he writes around it; and
•   the reappearance of the plucked strings and the rhythm change as the ghost realising that and then doing a little pleased dance before ascent to heaven;
and one can derive an emotional narrative equal to that of the most dramatic of symphonies.

I can understand your brother wanting to reply but personally I wouldn't have bothered, it is, after all, only The New Statesman and they have been publishing garbage like this for decades.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on July 19, 2022, 02:15:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 01:19:38 AM
Negative article about VW from the New Statesman (online edition) with my brother's response printed (with his permission) below.

Vaughan Williams' vision of Englishness is not the one we need
The composer dominates the BBC Proms this year, the 150th anniversary of his birth. But if this is our national music, it is a toothless pastiche.
By Matthew Gilley
This year "The Lark Ascending" by Ralph Vaughan Williams was voted Classic FM listeners' favourite piece of classical music (as it was last year, and the one before that, and the one before that). They're not alone in their admiration. A major theme of the BBC Proms this year is the 150th anniversary of the English composer's birth.
Vaughan Williams is venerated for developing a distinctly English style, as opposed to the German-influenced Romanticism that had dominated British music in the 19th century, yet his is a toothless, pastiche Englishness. If, as Michael Sheen suggested in the New Statesman in March, Britain is a divided nation in search of a story, this is a poor one to choose.
One of his main influences was folk music, but in "The Lark Ascending" (first performed in its version for solo violin and orchestra in 1921) and other pieces, it is alluded to only in its most pleasant, uncomplicated form. The solo line swoops and soars, imitating folk melody with little vitality, trapping a living tradition in amber. The "Norfolk Rhapsody No 1" (1906) might make nice hold music for the tourist board, but offers little else.
Vaughan Williams was born to minor aristocracy without the need to ever earn his living. His efforts to create a particularly English music are attractive in theory, but the genteel result cannot speak for the country. If this is our national music, you might fairly ask, what place does it hold for me? He may well have prepared the way for later composers to be English without being so staid, but even among his contemporaries there was better available, such as Ethel Smyth's glorious Mass in D Major (1891), open and generous in its uncertainties, which will be performed at this year's Prom 44 instead. The narrow, exclusive vision of Vaughan Williams' music didn't befit his own time, and it certainly doesn't befit ours.
Vaughan Williams' other great influence was Renaissance choral music, and he sucked its soul in the same way he did with folk music. Prom 2 includes one of his most popular compositions, "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis" (number three on the Classic FM chart), a piece for string orchestra of weightless prettiness that really makes you think, "Gosh, I wish I was listening to Thomas Tallis." (Fortunately you can do that at Prom 50.)
There's an outing in Prom 6 for Vaughan Williams' Fourth Symphony, a darker and more complicated piece, written in the febrile 1930s, which only emphasises the pastoral naivety in the rest of his oeuvre. And yet it still sounds thin when compared with Michael Tippett's dramatic, poignant Fourth Symphony (1977), with which it is paired.
If marking anniversaries and smuggling interesting music in around the ossified canon is what classical programmers think they need to do to sell tickets, it seems a damning indictment of the industry. The strategy lacks creativity or optimism. There are enough composers and enough round numbers that you can find a "significant" anniversary for any occasion, resulting in concerts that only ever look backwards. (More modern music is not immune to this impulse. The minimalist composer Steve Reich has a birthday every year and it invariably comes with a rash of celebratory concerts – though at least he's there to do the celebrating.)
It's also hard to see how this approach serves the BBC's aim, stated in May, to "build new audiences for classical music". There is plenty on at the Proms this year with obvious contemporary appeal (such as Jennifer Walshe's "The Site of an Investigation", an experimental, ingenious work about social media and micro-pollutants, or a Violin Concerto by Missy Mazzoli, a thrilling, vibrant, easy-to-love composer), but they are poorly served by being hidden among the old standards. It is worth seeking them, or any of the other new commissions, out though, even if it takes a bit more effort than finding the classics.
And if you really need some larks in your music, they're there in the UK premiere in Prom 52 of Märchentänze by Thomas Adès.

(My brother's response)
Music is very important to me, especially deriving an emotional narrative from the music I am listening to, and like Matthew Gilley (15 July) I am not a huge fan of either the Lark Ascending or A Norfolk Rhapsody though I am not hostile to them. But to treat those relatively static pieces as summing up Vaughan Williams's oeuvre is false. So is complaining about the thinness of his fourth symphony in relation to the atmosphere of the 'febrile' 1930s. I see it as unrelated to the political atmosphere but rather a unique expression of personal irritability. Also to treat the fourth as a solitary contrast to the rest of his oeuvre is nonsensical. In these days of potential climate disaster and uncaring hedonism, his sixth symphony written in 1948 seems terrifyingly prophetic.
Finally, to place the Tallis Fantasia as part of his more static music is a misreading. Imagine –
•   the introduction of the plucked string theme as Tallis's ghost wandering the earth wondering whether he had done any good;
•   the working up to a climax as Vaughan Williams get increasingly sent by the theme as he writes around it; and
•   the reappearance of the plucked strings and the rhythm change as the ghost realising that and then doing a little pleased dance before ascent to heaven;
and one can derive an emotional narrative equal to that of the most dramatic of symphonies.

To your brother l offer a heartfelt " Well done! "  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 02:38:23 AM
Quote from: LKB on July 19, 2022, 02:15:31 AM
To your brother l offer a heartfelt " Well done! "  8)
Thanks - I've passed your message on.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 02:41:48 AM
From WAYLTN thread
Vaughan Williams Symphony No.9 World Premiere Performance (1958)
A most interesting VW release. I enjoyed the whole CD. Best of all was Sargent's powerful and urgent performance of Symphony No.6 (complete with BBC radio announcements) from the 1964 Proms. I was very gripped by the urgency of this performance and, for once, the epilogue felt right and not rushed. It reminded me of the excitement of my first encounter with the work (Boult/LPO) on a Decca Eclipse LP (complete with speech of thanks from the composer). The Ninth Symphony is the controversial premiere performance. It has been available on Pristine before. It does sound a bit rushed compared to later performances but I still enjoyed it and the harp's fade-out at the end worked well. I even enjoyed 'The Wasps' having enjoyed hearing it live at a local concert recently.



(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 19, 2022, 06:04:30 AM
Quote from: LKB on July 19, 2022, 02:15:31 AM
To your brother l offer a heartfelt " Well done! "  8)

+ 1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 19, 2022, 06:26:05 AM
Seems like running down RVW is a national pastime in the UK!  :o

Maybe we can delete the Elizabethan stuff and he can posthumously emigrate to the U.S. We could use him. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 19, 2022, 06:46:40 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 19, 2022, 06:26:05 AM
Seems like running down RVW is a national pastime in the UK! :o

Maybe we can delete the Elizabethan stuff and he can posthumously emigrate to the U.S. We could use him. :)

It has been for years, even when he was still alive. The article by Matthew Gilley (who he?) is the the usual ragbag of clichés tarted up with references to fashionably woke composers.

A couple of weeks ago MSN had a 'critics choice' of works to look out for at the Proms. My reaction was ' another year when the Proms won't be troubling my airwaves'.

Fortunately, I have all the RVW I will ever need in my record collection.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on July 19, 2022, 07:09:47 AM
That article read as a classic strawman.  He depicts RVW's music in a very specific and bizarre manner just to make it easy to knock it down and RVW's listeners at the same time.  It's just lazy writing not worthy of much thought or emotion.  Just toss it in the bin and move on.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 19, 2022, 07:48:50 AM
Truly. Throwaway "journalism."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2022, 08:08:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 01:19:38 AM
Negative article about VW from the New Statesman (online edition) with my brother's response printed (with his permission) below.

Vaughan Williams' vision of Englishness is not the one we need
The composer dominates the BBC Proms this year, the 150th anniversary of his birth. But if this is our national music, it is a toothless pastiche.
By Matthew Gilley
This year "The Lark Ascending" by Ralph Vaughan Williams was voted Classic FM listeners' favourite piece of classical music (as it was last year, and the one before that, and the one before that). They're not alone in their admiration. A major theme of the BBC Proms this year is the 150th anniversary of the English composer's birth.
Vaughan Williams is venerated for developing a distinctly English style, as opposed to the German-influenced Romanticism that had dominated British music in the 19th century, yet his is a toothless, pastiche Englishness. If, as Michael Sheen suggested in the New Statesman in March, Britain is a divided nation in search of a story, this is a poor one to choose.
One of his main influences was folk music, but in "The Lark Ascending" (first performed in its version for solo violin and orchestra in 1921) and other pieces, it is alluded to only in its most pleasant, uncomplicated form. The solo line swoops and soars, imitating folk melody with little vitality, trapping a living tradition in amber. The "Norfolk Rhapsody No 1" (1906) might make nice hold music for the tourist board, but offers little else.
Vaughan Williams was born to minor aristocracy without the need to ever earn his living. His efforts to create a particularly English music are attractive in theory, but the genteel result cannot speak for the country. If this is our national music, you might fairly ask, what place does it hold for me? He may well have prepared the way for later composers to be English without being so staid, but even among his contemporaries there was better available, such as Ethel Smyth's glorious Mass in D Major (1891), open and generous in its uncertainties, which will be performed at this year's Prom 44 instead. The narrow, exclusive vision of Vaughan Williams' music didn't befit his own time, and it certainly doesn't befit ours.
Vaughan Williams' other great influence was Renaissance choral music, and he sucked its soul in the same way he did with folk music. Prom 2 includes one of his most popular compositions, "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis" (number three on the Classic FM chart), a piece for string orchestra of weightless prettiness that really makes you think, "Gosh, I wish I was listening to Thomas Tallis." (Fortunately you can do that at Prom 50.)
There's an outing in Prom 6 for Vaughan Williams' Fourth Symphony, a darker and more complicated piece, written in the febrile 1930s, which only emphasises the pastoral naivety in the rest of his oeuvre. And yet it still sounds thin when compared with Michael Tippett's dramatic, poignant Fourth Symphony (1977), with which it is paired.
If marking anniversaries and smuggling interesting music in around the ossified canon is what classical programmers think they need to do to sell tickets, it seems a damning indictment of the industry. The strategy lacks creativity or optimism. There are enough composers and enough round numbers that you can find a "significant" anniversary for any occasion, resulting in concerts that only ever look backwards. (More modern music is not immune to this impulse. The minimalist composer Steve Reich has a birthday every year and it invariably comes with a rash of celebratory concerts – though at least he's there to do the celebrating.)
It's also hard to see how this approach serves the BBC's aim, stated in May, to "build new audiences for classical music". There is plenty on at the Proms this year with obvious contemporary appeal (such as Jennifer Walshe's "The Site of an Investigation", an experimental, ingenious work about social media and micro-pollutants, or a Violin Concerto by Missy Mazzoli, a thrilling, vibrant, easy-to-love composer), but they are poorly served by being hidden among the old standards. It is worth seeking them, or any of the other new commissions, out though, even if it takes a bit more effort than finding the classics.
And if you really need some larks in your music, they're there in the UK premiere in Prom 52 of Märchentänze by Thomas Adès.

(My brother's response)
Music is very important to me, especially deriving an emotional narrative from the music I am listening to, and like Matthew Gilley (15 July) I am not a huge fan of either the Lark Ascending or A Norfolk Rhapsody though I am not hostile to them. But to treat those relatively static pieces as summing up Vaughan Williams's oeuvre is false. So is complaining about the thinness of his fourth symphony in relation to the atmosphere of the 'febrile' 1930s. I see it as unrelated to the political atmosphere but rather a unique expression of personal irritability. Also to treat the fourth as a solitary contrast to the rest of his oeuvre is nonsensical. In these days of potential climate disaster and uncaring hedonism, his sixth symphony written in 1948 seems terrifyingly prophetic.
Finally, to place the Tallis Fantasia as part of his more static music is a misreading. Imagine –
•   the introduction of the plucked string theme as Tallis's ghost wandering the earth wondering whether he had done any good;
•   the working up to a climax as Vaughan Williams get increasingly sent by the theme as he writes around it; and
•   the reappearance of the plucked strings and the rhythm change as the ghost realising that and then doing a little pleased dance before ascent to heaven;
and one can derive an emotional narrative equal to that of the most dramatic of symphonies.

A lousy article, but your brother's follow-up was spot on, Jeffrey. It never ceases to amaze me that RVW gets raked through dirt while composers like Stockhausen get praised for their "forward-thinking" modernity. If one actually listened to RVW's oeuvre in any depth, they would soon realize that pigeonholing him is not something that can be done. It often makes me think of the downright nastiness that comes from critics when writing about Delius for example. This poor composer has suffered some of the most vicious attacks from critics that it does make me wonder if they've actually spent any time with his music before writing their slop. Getting back to RVW, I think it's best we ignore the naysayers and continue to praise his music, because, at the very least, we know what we're talking about and understand that this man's genius is not bound by one style, but many of them and no matter what is written, his own soul, spirit and humanity comes to foreground in the music and this is something these journalists don't understand.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 19, 2022, 12:39:14 PM
Ha, lol, that article. My politics are of the same ilk as the New Statesman but my musical tastes are, I hope, a bit more sophisticated. No socialist realism for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 03:45:11 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 19, 2022, 08:08:29 AM
A lousy article, but your brother's follow-up was spot on, Jeffrey. It never ceases to amaze me that RVW gets raked through dirt while composers like Stockhausen get praised for their "forward-thinking" modernity. If one actually listened to RVW's oeuvre in any depth, they would soon realize that pigeonholing him is not something that can be done. It often makes me think of the downright nastiness that comes from critics when writing about Delius for example. This poor composer has suffered some of the most vicious attacks from critics that it does make me wonder if they've actually spent any time with his music before writing their slop. Getting back to RVW, I think it's best we ignore the naysayers and continue to praise his music, because, at the very least, we know what we're talking about and understand that this man's genius is not bound by one style, but many of them and no matter what is written, his own soul, spirit and humanity comes to foreground in the music and this is something these journalists don't understand.
Thanks John - I very much agree with what you say.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 19, 2022, 12:39:14 PM
Ha, lol, that article. My politics are of the same ilk as the New Statesman but my musical tastes are, I hope, a bit more sophisticated. No socialist realism for me.
I like the New Statesman as well and have started buying it recently. However, their online hatchet job on Vaughan Williams was most unappealing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 19, 2022, 04:41:39 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 01:19:38 AM
Negative article about VW from the New Statesman (online edition) with my brother's response printed (with his permission) below.

Vaughan Williams' vision of Englishness is not the one we need
The composer dominates the BBC Proms this year, the 150th anniversary of his birth. But if this is our national music, it is a toothless pastiche.
By Matthew Gilley
This year "The Lark Ascending" by Ralph Vaughan Williams was voted Classic FM listeners' favourite piece of classical music (as it was last year, and the one before that, and the one before that). They're not alone in their admiration. A major theme of the BBC Proms this year is the 150th anniversary of the English composer's birth.
Vaughan Williams is venerated for developing a distinctly English style, as opposed to the German-influenced Romanticism that had dominated British music in the 19th century, yet his is a toothless, pastiche Englishness. If, as Michael Sheen suggested in the New Statesman in March, Britain is a divided nation in search of a story, this is a poor one to choose.
One of his main influences was folk music, but in "The Lark Ascending" (first performed in its version for solo violin and orchestra in 1921) and other pieces, it is alluded to only in its most pleasant, uncomplicated form. The solo line swoops and soars, imitating folk melody with little vitality, trapping a living tradition in amber. The "Norfolk Rhapsody No 1" (1906) might make nice hold music for the tourist board, but offers little else.
Vaughan Williams was born to minor aristocracy without the need to ever earn his living. His efforts to create a particularly English music are attractive in theory, but the genteel result cannot speak for the country. If this is our national music, you might fairly ask, what place does it hold for me? He may well have prepared the way for later composers to be English without being so staid, but even among his contemporaries there was better available, such as Ethel Smyth's glorious Mass in D Major (1891), open and generous in its uncertainties, which will be performed at this year's Prom 44 instead. The narrow, exclusive vision of Vaughan Williams' music didn't befit his own time, and it certainly doesn't befit ours.
Vaughan Williams' other great influence was Renaissance choral music, and he sucked its soul in the same way he did with folk music. Prom 2 includes one of his most popular compositions, "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis" (number three on the Classic FM chart), a piece for string orchestra of weightless prettiness that really makes you think, "Gosh, I wish I was listening to Thomas Tallis." (Fortunately you can do that at Prom 50.)
There's an outing in Prom 6 for Vaughan Williams' Fourth Symphony, a darker and more complicated piece, written in the febrile 1930s, which only emphasises the pastoral naivety in the rest of his oeuvre. And yet it still sounds thin when compared with Michael Tippett's dramatic, poignant Fourth Symphony (1977), with which it is paired.
If marking anniversaries and smuggling interesting music in around the ossified canon is what classical programmers think they need to do to sell tickets, it seems a damning indictment of the industry. The strategy lacks creativity or optimism. There are enough composers and enough round numbers that you can find a "significant" anniversary for any occasion, resulting in concerts that only ever look backwards. (More modern music is not immune to this impulse. The minimalist composer Steve Reich has a birthday every year and it invariably comes with a rash of celebratory concerts – though at least he's there to do the celebrating.)
It's also hard to see how this approach serves the BBC's aim, stated in May, to "build new audiences for classical music". There is plenty on at the Proms this year with obvious contemporary appeal (such as Jennifer Walshe's "The Site of an Investigation", an experimental, ingenious work about social media and micro-pollutants, or a Violin Concerto by Missy Mazzoli, a thrilling, vibrant, easy-to-love composer), but they are poorly served by being hidden among the old standards. It is worth seeking them, or any of the other new commissions, out though, even if it takes a bit more effort than finding the classics.
And if you really need some larks in your music, they're there in the UK premiere in Prom 52 of Märchentänze by Thomas Adès.

(My brother's response)
Music is very important to me, especially deriving an emotional narrative from the music I am listening to, and like Matthew Gilley (15 July) I am not a huge fan of either the Lark Ascending or A Norfolk Rhapsody though I am not hostile to them. But to treat those relatively static pieces as summing up Vaughan Williams's oeuvre is false. So is complaining about the thinness of his fourth symphony in relation to the atmosphere of the 'febrile' 1930s. I see it as unrelated to the political atmosphere but rather a unique expression of personal irritability. Also to treat the fourth as a solitary contrast to the rest of his oeuvre is nonsensical. In these days of potential climate disaster and uncaring hedonism, his sixth symphony written in 1948 seems terrifyingly prophetic.
Finally, to place the Tallis Fantasia as part of his more static music is a misreading. Imagine –
•   the introduction of the plucked string theme as Tallis's ghost wandering the earth wondering whether he had done any good;
•   the working up to a climax as Vaughan Williams get increasingly sent by the theme as he writes around it; and
•   the reappearance of the plucked strings and the rhythm change as the ghost realising that and then doing a little pleased dance before ascent to heaven;
and one can derive an emotional narrative equal to that of the most dramatic of symphonies.

Wow, so cynical an article.  I was just talking about this to a widow of an English composer I quite admire who felt this.  It's not always as overt as this author is.  I'll certainly share this with her.  The author also misses a musicological approach and is focused on an audience reaction (is it engaging).  Musicological approaches take into account context, history, impact, etc.  It's such a juvenile assessment.  I happen to consider RVW as one of my top 5 composers.  I also deeply appreciate the works he singles out as weak perhaps because I'm not English and to me it represents something slightly more exotic.  I clearly hear the French influence in RVW just like I hear the Germanic in Elgar.  That's not a problem.  All music has influences.  We can hear eastern gamelan influences in Debussy for example.  Very clearly hear French in Rimsky Korsakov and Stravinsky.  This is exotic and interesting.  I also happen to love many of the composers the article singles out such as Adès and Missy Mazzoli who I've met at a few occasions before she was "famous".  I just think this writer wreaks of elitism and has much to learn about populism he defends without understanding.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2022, 07:26:21 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 03:45:11 PM
Thanks John - I very much agree with what you say.

I had a hunch you might. ;) :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 19, 2022, 10:31:54 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 19, 2022, 04:41:39 PM
Wow, so cynical an article.  I was just talking about this to a widow of an English composer I quite admire who felt this.  It's not always as overt as this author is.  I'll certainly share this with her.  The author also misses a musicological approach and is focused on an audience reaction (is it engaging).  Musicological approaches take into account context, history, impact, etc.  It's such a juvenile assessment.  I happen to consider RVW as one of my top 5 composers.  I also deeply appreciate the works he singles out as weak perhaps because I'm not English and to me it represents something slightly more exotic.  I clearly hear the French influence in RVW just like I hear the Germanic in Elgar.  That's not a problem.  All music has influences.  We can hear eastern gamelan influences in Debussy for example.  Very clearly hear French in Rimsky Korsakov and Stravinsky.  This is exotic and interesting.  I also happen to love many of the composers the article singles out such as Adès and Missy Mazzoli who I've met at a few occasions before she was "famous".  I just think this writer wreaks of elitism and has much to learn about populism he defends without understanding.

Really well put - thankyou!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 11:03:31 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 19, 2022, 10:31:54 PM
Really well put - thankyou!
+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 11:36:52 PM
Last night I turned on the car radio near the start of the 4th Symphony conducted by Sir Andrew Davis from the Proms. I remained in the car to hear the rest of it. It sounded like a very good performance.
I found this short video online of Andrew Davis talking about the composer (when he says 'Shackleton' he means 'Scott'):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIEEfmwQncY
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DaveF on July 20, 2022, 01:25:47 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 19, 2022, 04:41:39 PM
I just think this writer wreaks of elitism and has much to learn about populism he defends without understanding.

Ha! - brilliant, devastating in fact.  Says perfectly in one line what I got rather more carried away trying to express:

Of course, this being the New Statesman, everything Matthew Gilley writes has passed through the filter of the magazine's left-wing political stance.  There is no music criticism as such in his piece; VW is not presented as a bad, incompetent composer (an opinion that wouldn't stand up to much examination) but as an out-of-touch toff, enjoying a private income and using folk music only in its most "pleasant, uncomplicated form" (rather than, presumably, incorporating the Jarrow Marchers' songs into his pieces).  The composers to whom he is unflatteringly compared are an interesting bunch: Ethel Smyth (imprisoned for her involvement in the Women's Suffrage movement), Michael Tippett (ditto for his pacifist views), Thomas Tallis (possibly recusant Roman Catholic) - all good anti-establishment rebels (which didn't stop the first two accepting dame/knighthoods and also enjoying private incomes).

Gilley is particularly scathing about the use of anniversaries to aid programming, contending that it is possible to find a significant anniversary for any occasion. This may be true (I'm particularly looking forward to 2023 being Ligeti and Rachmaninoff year), but as far as I can see we're not actually doing that (I've seen little or no mention of Xenakis, Franck or Scriabin this year, all of whom are also enjoying "big ones") - we're celebrating the sesquicentenary (couldn't wait to get that word in) of someone usually reckoned to be one of the three greatest British composers of the last century.  And as far as Steve Reich goes, I can find plenty of events that were held to celebrate his 80th 5 years ago, but not these annual birthday bashes that Gilley finds so irritating.  I wonder whether Gilley would find a Xenakis centenary concert, were such to be held, backward-looking.

A few points from Gilley's review that particularly annoyed me:

"Vaughan Williams is venerated for developing a distinctly English style" - not by me he's not: I don't hear anything English in my favourite VW pieces (Job, the symphonies, the A minor violin sonata etc. etc.).  I just enjoy his music ("venerate" is perhaps a bit strong for me) because it's such damn good stuff.

"If this is our national music" - who ever claimed it was?  To my ears Britten is every bit as English.  (At least he had an English name, not two Welsh ones ;D.)  What the heck is "national music" anyway?  And what does Gilley think should be placed on this national pedestal in place of VW?  The contemporary pieces he recommends are by, respectively, an Irish and an American composer.

"There is plenty on at the Proms this year with obvious contemporary appeal" - only if it's good music.  I really hope both Walshe's and Mazzoli's pieces fall into that category, and I look forward with interest to hearing them, but a stinkingly bad piece about social media and microplastics will have no appeal whatever, contemporary or otherwise.

"Missy Mazzoli, a thrilling, vibrant, easy-to-love composer" - a description that sounds a lot like poor old VW.

"It is worth seeking them, or any of the other new commissions, out though, even if it takes a bit more effort than finding the classics" - why should it take more effort? It's all there in the Proms guide.

There - rant over.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 20, 2022, 05:46:44 AM
Quote from: DaveF on July 20, 2022, 01:25:47 AM
Ha! - brilliant, devastating in fact.  Says perfectly in one line what I got rather more carried away trying to express:

Of course, this being the New Statesman, everything Matthew Gilley writes has passed through the filter of the magazine's left-wing political stance.  There is no music criticism as such in his piece; VW is not presented as a bad, incompetent composer (an opinion that wouldn't stand up to much examination) but as an out-of-touch toff, enjoying a private income and using folk music only in its most "pleasant, uncomplicated form" (rather than, presumably, incorporating the Jarrow Marchers' songs into his pieces).  The composers to whom he is unflatteringly compared are an interesting bunch: Ethel Smyth (imprisoned for her involvement in the Women's Suffrage movement), Michael Tippett (ditto for his pacifist views), Thomas Tallis (possibly recusant Roman Catholic) - all good anti-establishment rebels (which didn't stop the first two accepting dame/knighthoods and also enjoying private incomes).

Gilley is particularly scathing about the use of anniversaries to aid programming, contending that it is possible to find a significant anniversary for any occasion. This may be true (I'm particularly looking forward to 2023 being Ligeti and Rachmaninoff year), but as far as I can see we're not actually doing that (I've seen little or no mention of Xenakis, Franck or Scriabin this year, all of whom are also enjoying "big ones") - we're celebrating the sesquicentenary (couldn't wait to get that word in) of someone usually reckoned to be one of the three greatest British composers of the last century.  And as far as Steve Reich goes, I can find plenty of events that were held to celebrate his 80th 5 years ago, but not these annual birthday bashes that Gilley finds so irritating.  I wonder whether Gilley would find a Xenakis centenary concert, were such to be held, backward-looking.

A few points from Gilley's review that particularly annoyed me:

"Vaughan Williams is venerated for developing a distinctly English style" - not by me he's not: I don't hear anything English in my favourite VW pieces (Job, the symphonies, the A minor violin sonata etc. etc.).  I just enjoy his music ("venerate" is perhaps a bit strong for me) because it's such damn good stuff.

"If this is our national music" - who ever claimed it was?  To my ears Britten is every bit as English.  (At least he had an English name, not two Welsh ones ;D.)  What the heck is "national music" anyway?  And what does Gilley think should be placed on this national pedestal in place of VW?  The contemporary pieces he recommends are by, respectively, an Irish and an American composer.

"There is plenty on at the Proms this year with obvious contemporary appeal" - only if it's good music.  I really hope both Walshe's and Mazzoli's pieces fall into that category, and I look forward with interest to hearing them, but a stinkingly bad piece about social media and microplastics will have no appeal whatever, contemporary or otherwise.

"Missy Mazzoli, a thrilling, vibrant, easy-to-love composer" - a description that sounds a lot like poor old VW.

"It is worth seeking them, or any of the other new commissions, out though, even if it takes a bit more effort than finding the classics" - why should it take more effort? It's all there in the Proms guide.

There - rant over.

Also, some have said Missy Mazzoli and Ades are very conservative contemporary composers who are not the torch bearers of contemporary music but the easy and popular choice. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 20, 2022, 12:11:20 PM
What's funny about that piece VW is that it comes from a Marxist perspective, and yet instead of giving people the option of experiencing certain atheistic experiences, it draws a fence around them and says no-one must enjoy them because they are somehow impure.OK so in the past ordinary people might have been excluded from enjoying VW's music because of difficulties in getting to concerts, price of tickets, not having the necessary knowledge to appreciate the music &c. But to the extent those operate now, what's to stop people people taking the barriers away and allowing more people to experience VW?
And VW is a very poor choice to pillory as a member of an elite, seeing as he spent much time conducting amateur choirs and so forth.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on July 24, 2022, 12:31:11 AM
Quote from: DaveF on July 20, 2022, 01:25:47 AM
Ha! - brilliant, devastating in fact.  Says perfectly in one line what I got rather more carried away trying to express:

Of course, this being the New Statesman, everything Matthew Gilley writes has passed through the filter of the magazine's left-wing political stance.  There is no music criticism as such in his piece; VW is not presented as a bad, incompetent composer (an opinion that wouldn't stand up to much examination) but as an out-of-touch toff, enjoying a private income and using folk music only in its most "pleasant, uncomplicated form" (rather than, presumably, incorporating the Jarrow Marchers' songs into his pieces).  The composers to whom he is unflatteringly compared are an interesting bunch: Ethel Smyth (imprisoned for her involvement in the Women's Suffrage movement), Michael Tippett (ditto for his pacifist views), Thomas Tallis (possibly recusant Roman Catholic) - all good anti-establishment rebels (which didn't stop the first two accepting dame/knighthoods and also enjoying private incomes).

Gilley is particularly scathing about the use of anniversaries to aid programming, contending that it is possible to find a significant anniversary for any occasion. This may be true (I'm particularly looking forward to 2023 being Ligeti and Rachmaninoff year), but as far as I can see we're not actually doing that (I've seen little or no mention of Xenakis, Franck or Scriabin this year, all of whom are also enjoying "big ones") - we're celebrating the sesquicentenary (couldn't wait to get that word in) of someone usually reckoned to be one of the three greatest British composers of the last century.  And as far as Steve Reich goes, I can find plenty of events that were held to celebrate his 80th 5 years ago, but not these annual birthday bashes that Gilley finds so irritating.  I wonder whether Gilley would find a Xenakis centenary concert, were such to be held, backward-looking.

A few points from Gilley's review that particularly annoyed me:

"Vaughan Williams is venerated for developing a distinctly English style" - not by me he's not: I don't hear anything English in my favourite VW pieces (Job, the symphonies, the A minor violin sonata etc. etc.).  I just enjoy his music ("venerate" is perhaps a bit strong for me) because it's such damn good stuff.

"If this is our national music" - who ever claimed it was?  To my ears Britten is every bit as English.  (At least he had an English name, not two Welsh ones ;D.)  What the heck is "national music" anyway?  And what does Gilley think should be placed on this national pedestal in place of VW?  The contemporary pieces he recommends are by, respectively, an Irish and an American composer.

"There is plenty on at the Proms this year with obvious contemporary appeal" - only if it's good music.  I really hope both Walshe's and Mazzoli's pieces fall into that category, and I look forward with interest to hearing them, but a stinkingly bad piece about social media and microplastics will have no appeal whatever, contemporary or otherwise.

"Missy Mazzoli, a thrilling, vibrant, easy-to-love composer" - a description that sounds a lot like poor old VW.

"It is worth seeking them, or any of the other new commissions, out though, even if it takes a bit more effort than finding the classics" - why should it take more effort? It's all there in the Proms guide.

There - rant over.

Great points very well put.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on July 24, 2022, 01:30:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2022, 01:19:38 AM
Negative article about VW from the New Statesman (online edition) with my brother's response printed (with his permission) below.

Vaughan Williams' vision of Englishness is not the one we need
The composer dominates the BBC Proms this year, the 150th anniversary of his birth. But if this is our national music, it is a toothless pastiche.
By Matthew Gilley
This year "The Lark Ascending" by Ralph Vaughan Williams was voted Classic FM listeners' favourite piece of classical music (as it was last year, and the one before that, and the one before that). They're not alone in their admiration. A major theme of the BBC Proms this year is the 150th anniversary of the English composer's birth.
Vaughan Williams is venerated for developing a distinctly English style, as opposed to the German-influenced Romanticism that had dominated British music in the 19th century, yet his is a toothless, pastiche Englishness. If, as Michael Sheen suggested in the New Statesman in March, Britain is a divided nation in search of a story, this is a poor one to choose.
One of his main influences was folk music, but in "The Lark Ascending" (first performed in its version for solo violin and orchestra in 1921) and other pieces, it is alluded to only in its most pleasant, uncomplicated form. The solo line swoops and soars, imitating folk melody with little vitality, trapping a living tradition in amber. The "Norfolk Rhapsody No 1" (1906) might make nice hold music for the tourist board, but offers little else.
Vaughan Williams was born to minor aristocracy without the need to ever earn his living. His efforts to create a particularly English music are attractive in theory, but the genteel result cannot speak for the country. If this is our national music, you might fairly ask, what place does it hold for me? He may well have prepared the way for later composers to be English without being so staid, but even among his contemporaries there was better available, such as Ethel Smyth's glorious Mass in D Major (1891), open and generous in its uncertainties, which will be performed at this year's Prom 44 instead. The narrow, exclusive vision of Vaughan Williams' music didn't befit his own time, and it certainly doesn't befit ours.
Vaughan Williams' other great influence was Renaissance choral music, and he sucked its soul in the same way he did with folk music. Prom 2 includes one of his most popular compositions, "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis" (number three on the Classic FM chart), a piece for string orchestra of weightless prettiness that really makes you think, "Gosh, I wish I was listening to Thomas Tallis." (Fortunately you can do that at Prom 50.)
There's an outing in Prom 6 for Vaughan Williams' Fourth Symphony, a darker and more complicated piece, written in the febrile 1930s, which only emphasises the pastoral naivety in the rest of his oeuvre. And yet it still sounds thin when compared with Michael Tippett's dramatic, poignant Fourth Symphony (1977), with which it is paired.
If marking anniversaries and smuggling interesting music in around the ossified canon is what classical programmers think they need to do to sell tickets, it seems a damning indictment of the industry. The strategy lacks creativity or optimism. There are enough composers and enough round numbers that you can find a "significant" anniversary for any occasion, resulting in concerts that only ever look backwards. (More modern music is not immune to this impulse. The minimalist composer Steve Reich has a birthday every year and it invariably comes with a rash of celebratory concerts – though at least he's there to do the celebrating.)
It's also hard to see how this approach serves the BBC's aim, stated in May, to "build new audiences for classical music". There is plenty on at the Proms this year with obvious contemporary appeal (such as Jennifer Walshe's "The Site of an Investigation", an experimental, ingenious work about social media and micro-pollutants, or a Violin Concerto by Missy Mazzoli, a thrilling, vibrant, easy-to-love composer), but they are poorly served by being hidden among the old standards. It is worth seeking them, or any of the other new commissions, out though, even if it takes a bit more effort than finding the classics.
And if you really need some larks in your music, they're there in the UK premiere in Prom 52 of Märchentänze by Thomas Adès.

(My brother's response)
Music is very important to me, especially deriving an emotional narrative from the music I am listening to, and like Matthew Gilley (15 July) I am not a huge fan of either the Lark Ascending or A Norfolk Rhapsody though I am not hostile to them. But to treat those relatively static pieces as summing up Vaughan Williams's oeuvre is false. So is complaining about the thinness of his fourth symphony in relation to the atmosphere of the 'febrile' 1930s. I see it as unrelated to the political atmosphere but rather a unique expression of personal irritability. Also to treat the fourth as a solitary contrast to the rest of his oeuvre is nonsensical. In these days of potential climate disaster and uncaring hedonism, his sixth symphony written in 1948 seems terrifyingly prophetic.
Finally, to place the Tallis Fantasia as part of his more static music is a misreading. Imagine –
•   the introduction of the plucked string theme as Tallis's ghost wandering the earth wondering whether he had done any good;
•   the working up to a climax as Vaughan Williams get increasingly sent by the theme as he writes around it; and
•   the reappearance of the plucked strings and the rhythm change as the ghost realising that and then doing a little pleased dance before ascent to heaven;
and one can derive an emotional narrative equal to that of the most dramatic of symphonies.

I would have thought that this Gilley character might have better served a political agenda (if that is his motivation) by attacking the reactionary forces that have appropriated some music to celebrate nationalism in countries where capitalism and empire building were a dominant social and economic factor (certainly including pre-WW1 Great Britain) - and this may well include a few composers as well (should Elgar spring to mind?). We still regularly sing "Land of Hope and Glory" and "I Vow To Thee My Country", the words of which, certainly the latter, do not reflect the views of the composers. Do people still view the folk song movement as left wing? It certainly still was in the 1960s and 1970s.  RVW was clearly happy to collaborate with a Marxist (A.L. Lloyd) on The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 26, 2022, 03:17:54 AM
I finally got around to listening to Brabbins' Sea Symphony this morning;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61DKwwqKq2L._AC_.jpg)

I like his interpretation - quite broad and powerful and well played and OK chorus.  But quite who booked Marcus Farnsworth as the baritone soloist I cannot imagine.  Vocally its quite a nice true and light voice but he is SO unsuited for the role.  His is a light lyric/lieder type baritone not at all right to hurl out Whitman's visionary verse over a large chorus and orchestra.  Its a struggle and audibly so.  When you compare his singing to so many of the greats who have preceeded him this is frankly embarassing and it leaves you wondering what on earth him, his agent, Hyperion, Brabbins or Andrew Keener producing were thinking.  Perhaps he was a last minute replacement?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on July 26, 2022, 03:26:27 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 26, 2022, 03:17:54 AM
I finally got around to listening to Brabbins' Sea Symphony this morning;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61DKwwqKq2L._AC_.jpg)

I like his interpretation - quite broad and powerful and well played and OK chorus.  But quite who booked Marcus Farnsworth as the baritone soloist I cannot imagine.  Vocally its quite a nice true and light voice but he is SO unsuited for the role.  His is a light lyric/lieder type baritone not at all right to hurl out Whitman's visionary verse over a large chorus and orchestra.  Its a struggle and audibly so.  When you compare his singing to so many of the greats who have preceeded him this is frankly embarassing and it leaves you wondering what on earth him, his agent, Hyperion, Brabbins or Andrew Keener producing were thinking.  Perhaps he was a last minute replacement?

I have never managed to get to the end of this recording, not because of Farnsworth but the overall sound picture. If I set the volume so that the it sounds  natural, every so often a section of the chorus jumps out at deafening volume. The BBC broadcast a Brabbins performance of the work from the Edinburgh Festival [Aug 9 2018] and it was excellent though I can't remember the soloists.

Edit: The artists were: 

BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra
Martyn Brabbins Conductor

Edinburgh Festival Chorus
Christopher Bell Chorus Director

Elizabeth Watts Soprano
Christopher Maltman Baritone
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 30, 2022, 09:15:57 PM
From WAYLTN thread:
I've just returned from a week away in Dorset. The accommodation had a CD player which sort-of worked and this CD was often played as my wife enjoyed it as well. It's a great programme of VW's chamber music for Violin and Piano, including 'Romance and Pastoral' the Violin Sonata, The Lark Ascending (in its original arrangement for violin and piano) and Six Studies in English folksong. I don't know a better recording of VW's chamber music:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on July 31, 2022, 01:49:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 30, 2022, 09:15:57 PM
From WAYLTN thread:
I've just returned from a week away in Dorset. The accommodation had a CD player which sort-of worked and this CD was often played as my wife enjoyed it as well. It's a great programme of VW's chamber music for Violin and Piano, including 'Romance and Pastoral' the Violin Sonata, The Lark Ascending (in its original arrangement for violin and piano) and Six Studies in English folksong. I don't know a better recording of VW's chamber music:
(//)

As I wrote on the main thread I think the only criticism that can be levelled at this CD is that it is too good. I would be surprised if any performance of this group of works has been played with more care and as much thought behind every note. There is a danger that perfection can rob music of something but not here. I compared "Six Studies" with an old gritty folksy recording (with viola), both accounts although different were equally valid. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 31, 2022, 02:14:31 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 31, 2022, 01:49:43 AM
As I wrote on the main thread I think the only criticism that can be levelled at this CD is that it is too good. I would be surprised if any performance of this group of works has been played with more care and as much thought behind every note. There is a danger that perfection can rob music of something but not here. I compared "Six Studies" with an old gritty folksy recording (with viola), both accounts although different were equally valid.
I'm glad that you enjoyed it too Lol.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 31, 2022, 06:52:40 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 26, 2022, 03:17:54 AM
I finally got around to listening to Brabbins' Sea Symphony this morning;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61DKwwqKq2L._AC_.jpg)

I like his interpretation - quite broad and powerful and well played and OK chorus.  But quite who booked Marcus Farnsworth as the baritone soloist I cannot imagine.  Vocally its quite a nice true and light voice but he is SO unsuited for the role.  His is a light lyric/lieder type baritone not at all right to hurl out Whitman's visionary verse over a large chorus and orchestra.  Its a struggle and audibly so.  When you compare his singing to so many of the greats who have preceeded him this is frankly embarassing and it leaves you wondering what on earth him, his agent, Hyperion, Brabbins or Andrew Keener producing were thinking.  Perhaps he was a last minute replacement?

Yeah, I'm afraid Boult on EMI (Warner) can't be beat in A Sea Symphony for me. Brabbins is a decent performance, though, but as you noted the baritone is wrong for the part. His voice doesn't project as it should above the orchestral texture. Another performance of this symphony I enjoy is Thomson on Chandos who had Brian Rayner Cook as the baritone soloist and he's quite good I must say and I want to say that Yvonne Kenny was the soprano in this performance, but I can't remember. Anyway, there are better performances found elsewhere. The low-point of Brabbins cycle for me so far. Everything else has been either very good or excellent. Oh and I still think Brabbins blows Manze out of the water. Manze has no feel for RVW and it's apparent by the first CD of his cycle that was released (A London Symphony, Symphony No. 8). Manze really should've stuck with playing violin in Baroque music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 31, 2022, 05:52:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 31, 2022, 06:52:40 AM
Manze really should've stuck with playing violin in Baroque music.

LOL, I came across the name the other day in a recording of some Italian Baroque violin sonatas and wondered whether he was the same person. The sonatas were good..
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on July 31, 2022, 07:15:52 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 31, 2022, 05:52:03 PM
LOL, I came across the name the other day in a recording of some Italian Baroque violin sonatas and wondered whether he was the same person. The sonatas were good..

I don't listen to Baroque Era music, but earlier on I did buy some Vivaldi recordings and he played violin on them. He's quite good!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on August 01, 2022, 10:22:08 AM
Tonight I'll be singing Dona Nobis Pacem, with a community chorus and accompanied on the piano. Looking forward to it, though the choral results will be far from professional. Hopefully it won't rain, as we're outdoors.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 01, 2022, 10:29:01 AM
Quote from: LKB on August 01, 2022, 10:22:08 AM
Tonight I'll be singing Dona Nobis Pacem, with a community chorus and accompanied on the piano. Looking forward to it, though the choral results will be far from professional. Hopefully it won't rain, as we're outdoors.

Nice! I had a similar experience with a local group in Lexington a couple of years ago. Great piece!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on August 01, 2022, 10:59:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 01, 2022, 10:29:01 AM
Nice! I had a similar experience with a local group in Lexington a couple of years ago. Great piece!

I'm looking forward to it, the rest of the program is Fauré's Requiem. So, two solid works, both of which have baritone solos I've been familiar with for decades. Should be awesome as long as we don't get wet...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 01, 2022, 11:06:07 AM
Btw, LKB did you buy that RVW Boult symphony Tower Records/Warner Japanese hybrid SACD set?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on August 01, 2022, 11:15:10 AM
Not as yet, my budget needs to recover from vacation last month, and l have some family birthdays over the next two weeks. But I'm determined to own the set, and soon.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mirror Image on August 01, 2022, 11:18:40 AM
Quote from: LKB on August 01, 2022, 11:15:10 AM
Not as yet, my budget needs to recover from vacation last month, and l have some family birthdays over the next two weeks. But I'm determined to own the set, and soon.  8)

Great to read. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 03, 2022, 12:13:31 AM
Quote from: LKB on August 01, 2022, 10:22:08 AM
Tonight I'll be singing Dona Nobis Pacem, with a community chorus and accompanied on the piano. Looking forward to it, though the choral results will be far from professional. Hopefully it won't rain, as we're outdoors.
Wonderful! Hope it went well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on August 03, 2022, 12:36:25 AM
Quote from: LKB on August 01, 2022, 10:22:08 AM
Tonight I'll be singing Dona Nobis Pacem, with a community chorus and accompanied on the piano. Looking forward to it, though the choral results will be far from professional. Hopefully it won't rain, as we're outdoors.
Dona Nobis Pluviam
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 03, 2022, 05:38:34 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 03, 2022, 12:13:31 AM
Wonderful! Hope it went well.
Ditto!

Quote from: Christo on August 03, 2022, 12:36:25 AM
Dona Nobis Pluviam
:laugh:  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on August 07, 2022, 08:05:16 PM
I was recently listening to RVW's highly intriguing late Violin Sonata (1952), in this excellent recording by Hugh Bean and David Parkhouse:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51r1sfS+tzL._SY355_.jpg)

The first two movements represent RVW at his most "modern" and complex - full of irregular rhythms, unpredictable harmonies, and scintillating virtuosity for both instruments. Great stuff - so it comes as a slight disappointment to me that the variation-form third movement returns to a much more "comfortable", traditional modal idiom, but it's still beautiful music nonetheless. Interestingly, the theme is taken directly from the third movement of his early Piano Quintet (which is also a theme-and-variations) from the other end of his illustrious career.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 07, 2022, 10:21:29 PM
Quote from: kyjo on August 07, 2022, 08:05:16 PM
I was recently listening to RVW's highly intriguing late Violin Sonata (1952), in this excellent recording by Hugh Bean and David Parkhouse:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51r1sfS+tzL._SY355_.jpg)

The first two movements represent RVW at his most "modern" and complex - full of irregular rhythms, unpredictable harmonies, and scintillating virtuosity for both instruments. Great stuff - so it comes as a slight disappointment to me that the variation-form third movement returns to a much more "comfortable", traditional modal idiom, but it's still beautiful music nonetheless. Interestingly, the theme is taken directly from the third movement of his early Piano Quintet (which is also a theme-and-variations) from the other end of his illustrious career.
Interesting review Kyle. It's actually one of my favourite pieces of chamber music and that is easily the best performance. I found the recent (much praised) Jennifer Pike recording to be oddly unidiomatic.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on August 07, 2022, 11:13:30 PM
Quote from: kyjo on August 07, 2022, 08:05:16 PM
I was recently listening to RVW's highly intriguing late Violin Sonata (1952), in this excellent recording by Hugh Bean and David Parkhouse:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51r1sfS+tzL._SY355_.jpg)

The first two movements represent RVW at his most "modern" and complex - full of irregular rhythms, unpredictable harmonies, and scintillating virtuosity for both instruments. Great stuff - so it comes as a slight disappointment to me that the variation-form third movement returns to a much more "comfortable", traditional modal idiom, but it's still beautiful music nonetheless. Interestingly, the theme is taken directly from the third movement of his early Piano Quintet (which is also a theme-and-variations) from the other end of his illustrious career.

Sounds an interesting work! I don't know RVW's Violin Sonata, I may listen to it if I find a good recording on youtube or spotify.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 08, 2022, 01:08:18 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on August 07, 2022, 11:13:30 PM
Sounds an interesting work! I don't know RVW's Violin Sonata, I may listen to it if I find a good recording on youtube or spotify.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yIyVwfBAQ0
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on August 08, 2022, 02:43:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 08, 2022, 01:08:18 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yIyVwfBAQ0

Very kind, thanks!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2022, 06:44:10 AM
Great piece!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on August 08, 2022, 09:04:57 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on August 07, 2022, 11:13:30 PM
Sounds an interesting work! I don't know RVW's Violin Sonata, I may listen to it if I find a good recording on youtube or spotify.

The Bean/Parkhouse recording has recently been uploaded to YT with a scrolling score, which is highly interesting to see given the music's frequent complexity: https://youtu.be/UMetoXv8rck
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on August 08, 2022, 01:43:29 PM
Quote from: kyjo on August 08, 2022, 09:04:57 AM
The Bean/Parkhouse recording has recently been uploaded to YT with a scrolling score, which is highly interesting to see given the music's frequent complexity: https://youtu.be/UMetoXv8rck

Thank you, it was quite helpful to follow the score; the Violin Sonata is a charming, suggestive piece, and as a matter of fact, it's true the first two movements sound more modern and complex for the various rhythmic changes, the contrasts of sharp, bold harmonies, without disdaining dissonances, but also for the timbral variety; there's more virtuosity too, very brilliant and well combined in the melodic lines of the instruments. While the third movement shows a simpler, more contemplative and nostalgic atmosphere, that can be found in many of RVW's previous works.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on August 10, 2022, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on August 08, 2022, 01:43:29 PM
Thank you, it was quite helpful to follow the score; the Violin Sonata is a charming, suggestive piece, and as a matter of fact, it's true the first two movements sound more modern and complex for the various rhythmic changes, the contrasts of sharp, bold harmonies, without disdaining dissonances, but also for the timbral variety; there's more virtuosity too, very brilliant and well combined in the melodic lines of the instruments. While the third movement shows a simpler, more contemplative and nostalgic atmosphere, that can be found in many of RVW's previous works.

Great analysis, Ilaria, with which I very much agree. Last night I was listening to that other great chamber work of RVW's, his String Quartet no. 2 (the superb Maggini recording on Naxos). Like the Violin Sonata, it is most effective in its contrasts between astringent dissonance and RVW's signature hymn-like modality. It's also unique amongst string quartets in that the most important role is given not to the first violin, but to the viola, contributing to the work's darkly-colored hue (the work was dedicated to a violist friend of his).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on August 11, 2022, 01:20:26 AM
Quote from: kyjo on August 10, 2022, 03:22:15 PM
Great analysis, Ilaria, with which I very much agree. Last night I was listening to that other great chamber work of RVW's, his String Quartet no. 2 (the superb Maggini recording on Naxos). Like the Violin Sonata, it is most effective in its contrasts between astringent dissonance and RVW's signature hymn-like modality. It's also unique amongst string quartets in that the most important role is given not to the first violin, but to the viola, contributing to the work's darkly-colored hue (the work was dedicated to a violist friend of his).

Sounds a very intriguing piece, thanks for the suggestion, Kyle, I'll certainly listen to it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on August 12, 2022, 12:01:05 PM
Some thoughts about Vaughan Williams' String Quartet No. 2 (I listened to the Maggini performance, that was superb):

I greatly enjoyed the composition, which is very particular for the great prominence given to the viola as principal instrument instead of the violin; nonetheless it's a beautiful, meditative work, quite dark and haunting in mood for the harmonic tensions, the rhythmic and timbric variations, and the contrapuntal texture of the movements. The first movement is stormy and suggestive for the often irregular ryhtms and dynamics, as it sometimes proceeds powerfully, sometimes it abruptly calms down; the second movement continues in a gloomy atmosphere, growing in intensity till a short climax that immediately fades in a solo, first of violin, then of viola, which quietly leads to the conclusion; the Scherzo is tense and anxious, with the viola definitely prominent, while the violins and cello develop the same melodic lines just changed in key and octave; the final forth movement doesn't lose the melancholic, desolating atmosphere, but now a more serene, peaceful tinge can be perceived too, especially in the ending.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2022, 12:11:52 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on August 12, 2022, 12:01:05 PM
Some thoughts about Vaughan Williams' String Quartet No. 2 (I listened to the Maggini performance, that was superb):

I greatly enjoyed the composition, which is very particular for the great prominence given to the viola as principal instrument instead of the violin; nonetheless it's a beautiful, meditative work, quite dark and haunting in mood for the harmonic tensions, the rhythmic and timbric variations, and the contrapuntal texture of the movements. The first movement is stormy and suggestive for the often irregular ryhtms and dynamics, as it sometimes proceeds powerfully, sometimes it abruptly calms down; the second movement continues in a gloomy atmosphere, growing in intensity till a short climax that immediately fades in a solo, first of violin, then of viola, which quietly leads to the conclusion; the Scherzo is tense and anxious, with the viola definitely prominent, while the violins and cello develop the same melodic lines just changed in key and octave; the final forth movement doesn't lose the melancholic, desolating atmosphere, but now a more serene, peaceful tinge can be perceived too, especially in the ending.
Nice analysis! It rates IMO with the Violin Sonata as his greatest chamber work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2022, 12:16:38 PM
Vaughan Williams's music featured towards the end of the film 'Benediction' (about the life of the war poet Siegfried Sassoon) which I watched on DVD today ('A Pastoral Symphony', Elder/Hallé) and the Tallis Fantasia (LPO/Boult)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on August 13, 2022, 01:28:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 13, 2022, 12:11:52 AM
Nice analysis! It rates IMO with the Violin Sonata as his greatest chamber work.

Thank you! I haven't listened to enough Vaughan Williams' chamber music to say the String Quartet No.2 is his greatest chamber work, but it is absolutely a marvelous, captivating work and maybe the one I enjoyed more so far. It also sounds more original than the String Quartet No.1 (however composed about 34 years earlier), which instead seems to be very influenced by Ravel's harmonic textures and colour, especially in the first movement, where the similarities with the String Quartet in F major are certainly evident.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2022, 02:46:32 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on August 13, 2022, 01:28:26 PM
Thank you! I haven't listened to enough Vaughan Williams' chamber music to say the String Quartet No.2 is his greatest chamber work, but it is absolutely a marvelous, captivating work and maybe the one I enjoyed more so far. It also sounds more original than the String Quartet No.1 (however composed about 34 years earlier), which instead seems to be very influenced by Ravel's harmonic textures and colour, especially in the first movement, where the similarities with the String Quartet in F major are certainly evident.
I agree. The SQ No.2 has more in common with the 6th Symphony I think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on August 13, 2022, 06:11:28 PM
Just popping in here to say I think the performance of Serenade to Music found in the July 2022 BBC Music Magazine CD is among the best I've heard.
It's the original version for 16 soloists.  It was recorded in concert at the 2010 Proms with Donald Runnicles conducting the BBC Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 13, 2022, 07:12:00 PM
Quote from: JBS on August 13, 2022, 06:11:28 PM
Just popping in here to say I think the performance of Serenade to Music found in the July 2022 BBC Music Magazine CD is among the best I've heard.
It's the original version for 16 soloists.  It was recorded in concert at the 2010 Proms with Donald Runnicles conducting the BBC Symphony Orchestra.

Nice!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 14, 2022, 12:48:53 AM
Quote from: JBS on August 13, 2022, 06:11:28 PM
Just popping in here to say I think the performance of Serenade to Music found in the July 2022 BBC Music Magazine CD is among the best I've heard.
It's the original version for 16 soloists.  It was recorded in concert at the 2010 Proms with Donald Runnicles conducting the BBC Symphony Orchestra.
If you look at the letters page you'll find a letter from me which refers to the Serenade to Music (not is a positive way I'm afraid) and a response from the Editor.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on August 14, 2022, 05:22:16 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 14, 2022, 12:48:53 AM
If you look at the letters page you'll find a letter from me which refers to the Serenade to Music (not is a positive way I'm afraid) and a response from the Editor.

[If you hadn't mentioned it, I'd never notice it--I get it primarily for the CD and sometimes never read the magazine itself.]

Well, I think StM is one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written...but you are right in saying they could have picked something not as famous. They did apparently limit themselves to stuff played in concert at the Proms, which probably limits the possibilities.
But at least they didn't pick The Lark Ascending or something else on that level of popularity.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 14, 2022, 05:27:43 PM
Quote from: JBS on August 14, 2022, 05:22:16 PM
[If you hadn't mentioned it, I'd never notice it--I get it primarily for the CD and sometimes never read the magazine itself.]

Well, I think StM is one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written...

I'm a fan, too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 14, 2022, 10:14:02 PM
Quote from: JBS on August 14, 2022, 05:22:16 PM
[If you hadn't mentioned it, I'd never notice it--I get it primarily for the CD and sometimes never read the magazine itself.]

Well, I think StM is one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written...but you are right in saying they could have picked something not as famous. They did apparently limit themselves to stuff played in concert at the Proms, which probably limits the possibilities.
But at least they didn't pick The Lark Ascending or something else on that level of popularity.
I like the new BBC MM CD cover disc with Sibelius's 'Tapiola', Bax's 'November Woods' (the latter is clearly influenced by the former and it's interesting to have them together on one CD). Also, 'Bolero' and a work by Dobrinka Tabakova and Anders Hillborg which I look forward to hearing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on August 15, 2022, 06:34:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 14, 2022, 10:14:02 PM
I like the new BBC MM CD cover disc with Sibelius's 'Tapiola', Bax's 'November Woods' (the latter is clearly influenced by the former and it's interesting to have them together on one CD). Also, 'Bolero' and a work by Dobrinka Tabakova and Anders Hillborg which I look forward to hearing.

That gets to the USA a month or so after you get. The Proms issue for July is what's on the newstand now in mid-August.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 15, 2022, 01:23:36 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 14, 2022, 10:14:02 PM
I like the new BBC MM CD cover disc with Sibelius's 'Tapiola', Bax's 'November Woods' (the latter is clearly influenced by the former and it's interesting to have them together on one CD). Also, 'Bolero' and a work by Dobrinka Tabakova and Anders Hillborg which I look forward to hearing.
Surely November Woods was written before Tapiola was.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 15, 2022, 10:26:24 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 15, 2022, 01:23:36 PM
Surely November Woods was written before Tapiola was.
Yes, you are quite right!
Another display of my loud-mouthed ignorance  ::)
Maybe Tapiola was influenced by November Woods  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on August 16, 2022, 03:31:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 15, 2022, 10:26:24 PM
Yes, you are quite right!
Another display of my loud-mouthed ignorance  ::)
Maybe Tapiola was influenced by November Woods  ;D

I don't think the last sentence of your post is beyond the realms of possibility, Jeffrey. The two pieces have the same feel about them. When Sibelius accepted to be the first President of the Arnold Bax Society he wrote "I have a great admiration for the music of the English maestro".
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 16, 2022, 05:21:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 15, 2022, 10:26:24 PM
Yes, you are quite right!
Another display of my loud-mouthed ignorance  ::)
Maybe Tapiola was influenced by November Woods  ;D

Perhaps it was something in the air. Compare (and contrast, as exam questions used to say) November Woods (1917) with Delius North Country Sketches (1913-14). Delius isn't quite as stormy but every bit as autumnal.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 16, 2022, 08:46:56 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 16, 2022, 03:31:02 AM
I don't think the last sentence of your post is beyond the realms of possibility, Jeffrey. The two pieces have the same feel about them. When Sibelius accepted to be the first President of the Arnold Bax Society he wrote "I have a great admiration for the music of the English maestro".
That's interesting.  I didn't know that he was involved with that society before now.  When was he involved with it?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2022, 01:17:58 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 16, 2022, 03:31:02 AM
I don't think the last sentence of your post is beyond the realms of possibility, Jeffrey. The two pieces have the same feel about them. When Sibelius accepted to be the first President of the Arnold Bax Society he wrote "I have a great admiration for the music of the English maestro".
Most interesting Lol. I didn't know that. I wonder how 'The Tale the Pine Trees Knew' etc went down in downtown Helsinki!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2022, 01:19:03 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 16, 2022, 05:21:16 AM
Perhaps it was something in the air. Compare (and contrast, as exam questions used to say) November Woods (1917) with Delius North Country Sketches (1913-14). Delius isn't quite as stormy but every bit as autumnal.
Interesting - I like the 'North Country Sketches'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on August 17, 2022, 02:44:07 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 16, 2022, 08:46:56 AM
That's interesting.  I didn't know that he was involved with that society before now.  When was he involved with it?

PD

Digging around for a connection between Sibelius and Bax, as there is I feel a similarity between Tapiola and November Woods, it came up. Oddly Sibelius although obviously an admirer of Bax dedicated a symphony not to him but Bantock. Sibelius was the first President of the Arnold Bax Society, which to be fair is purely a honorary appointment. Letter of acceptance from Sibelius below.   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 17, 2022, 02:46:10 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 17, 2022, 02:44:07 AM
Digging around for a connection between Sibelius and Bax, as there is I feel a similarity between Tapiola and November Woods, it came up. Oddly Sibelius although obviously an admirer of Bax dedicated a symphony not to him but Bantock. Sibelius was the first President of the Arnold Bax Society, which to be fair is purely a honorary appointment. Letter of acceptance from Sibelius below.   
Thanks for the info and the photo!  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2022, 01:17:35 PM
Quote from: Irons on August 17, 2022, 02:44:07 AM
Digging around for a connection between Sibelius and Bax, as there is I feel a similarity between Tapiola and November Woods, it came up. Oddly Sibelius although obviously an admirer of Bax dedicated a symphony not to him but Bantock. Sibelius was the first President of the Arnold Bax Society, which to be fair is purely a honorary appointment. Letter of acceptance from Sibelius below.   
Great stuff!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2022, 01:20:41 PM
Four forthcoming releases as we come up to the 150th Anniversary of VW's birth on 12th October 2022:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Peter Power Pop on August 17, 2022, 04:29:49 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/CBaQjXbZU5Q
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on August 17, 2022, 08:06:50 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on August 12, 2022, 12:01:05 PM
Some thoughts about Vaughan Williams' String Quartet No. 2 (I listened to the Maggini performance, that was superb):

I greatly enjoyed the composition, which is very particular for the great prominence given to the viola as principal instrument instead of the violin; nonetheless it's a beautiful, meditative work, quite dark and haunting in mood for the harmonic tensions, the rhythmic and timbric variations, and the contrapuntal texture of the movements. The first movement is stormy and suggestive for the often irregular ryhtms and dynamics, as it sometimes proceeds powerfully, sometimes it abruptly calms down; the second movement continues in a gloomy atmosphere, growing in intensity till a short climax that immediately fades in a solo, first of violin, then of viola, which quietly leads to the conclusion; the Scherzo is tense and anxious, with the viola definitely prominent, while the violins and cello develop the same melodic lines just changed in key and octave; the final forth movement doesn't lose the melancholic, desolating atmosphere, but now a more serene, peaceful tinge can be perceived too, especially in the ending.

As always, a great analysis of a great work, Ilaria!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on August 17, 2022, 08:14:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 13, 2022, 12:11:52 AM
Nice analysis! It rates IMO with the Violin Sonata as his greatest chamber work.

Despite being an "early" work, the gorgeous Piano Quintet ranks right up there for me as well (the 1st SQ is very fine too). It is filled with both youthful Romantic passion and plenty of foreshadowing of RVW's inimitable mature style. There are several passages in the work that move me greatly and never fail to give me a lump in my throat, such as the second subject of the first movement or the opening of the second. This marvelous Naxos recording is the one to beat (featuring some other lovely, lesser-known chamber works by him):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/619Qrx5VNPL._SX355_.jpg)

I don't agree with some of the rather sniffy reviews on Amazon.... ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 18, 2022, 02:30:06 AM
Quote from: Peter Power Pop on August 17, 2022, 04:29:49 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/CBaQjXbZU5Q
Thanks Peter - good to hear some praise for Manze.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on August 18, 2022, 03:20:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 17, 2022, 01:20:41 PM
Four forthcoming releases as we come up to the 150th Anniversary of VW's birth on 12th October 2022:

Thanks for the info. It will be interesting to hear Sir Colin Davis in No 4. Many years ago I heard him conduct Symphony No 6 in the RFH with the Philharmonia Orchestra and there is a live recording of the same work with the Bavarian Radio SO. I wasn't aware that he had other RVW works in his repertoire.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 18, 2022, 05:04:49 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 18, 2022, 03:20:25 AM
Thanks for the info. It will be interesting to hear Sir Colin Davis in No 4. Many years ago I heard him conduct Symphony No 6 in the RFH with the Philharmonia Orchestra and there is a live recording of the same work with the Bavarian Radio SO. I wasn't aware that he had other RVW works in his repertoire.
I have two CDs of CD conducting Symphony No.6, including the Bavarian one on Orfeo.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on August 18, 2022, 06:38:06 AM
Quote from: kyjo on August 17, 2022, 08:14:01 PM
Despite being an "early" work, the gorgeous Piano Quintet ranks right up there for me as well (the 1st SQ is very fine too). It is filled with both youthful Romantic passion and plenty of foreshadowing of RVW's inimitable mature style. There are several passages in the work that move me greatly and never fail to give me a lump in my throat, such as the second subject of the first movement or the opening of the second. This marvelous Naxos recording is the one to beat (featuring some other lovely, lesser-known chamber works by him):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/619Qrx5VNPL._SX355_.jpg)

I don't agree with some of the rather sniffy reviews on Amazon.... ::)

I have a great fondness for the "Six Studies". Which can be for violin, viola or cello and with of course piano - take your pick (I prefer cello).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 18, 2022, 09:28:36 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 18, 2022, 06:38:06 AM
I have a great fondness for the "Six Studies". Which can be for violin, viola or cello and with of course piano - take your pick (I prefer cello).
Me too - it's a lovely work of which I have numerous recordings.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on August 18, 2022, 02:42:56 PM
Quote from: kyjo on August 17, 2022, 08:06:50 PM
As always, a great analysis of a great work, Ilaria!
Quote from: kyjo on August 17, 2022, 08:14:01 PM
Despite being an "early" work, the gorgeous Piano Quintet ranks right up there for me as well (the 1st SQ is very fine too). It is filled with both youthful Romantic passion and plenty of foreshadowing of RVW's inimitable mature style. There are several passages in the work that move me greatly and never fail to give me a lump in my throat, such as the second subject of the first movement or the opening of the second. This marvelous Naxos recording is the one to beat (featuring some other lovely, lesser-known chamber works by him):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/619Qrx5VNPL._SX355_.jpg)

I don't agree with some of the rather sniffy reviews on Amazon.... ::)
Thank you.  :)

I appreciate the String Quartet No. 1 a lot too; compared to the 2nd SQ, it sounds less original because of the clear Ravel influences in harmonies and colour, especially in the Allegro moderato, but there are also many echoes of the more mature VW's style emerging. The Piano Quintet is another charming, hauntingly beautiful work; the expressive possibilities of the instruments are very well combined and I like the light-dark trimbric contrasts created by piano and violin opposite to viola, cello and double bass.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on August 21, 2022, 10:04:37 AM
Tonight's "Countryfile" right now on BBC celebrates the 150th birthday of RVW at his house in Surrey, with a performance of the Lark Ascending to boot. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 21, 2022, 12:57:46 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on August 21, 2022, 10:04:37 AM
Tonight's "Countryfile" right now on BBC celebrates the 150th birthday of RVW at his house in Surrey, with a performance of the Lark Ascending to boot.
Thanks Olivier - must watch this on 'catch up'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on August 22, 2022, 06:09:37 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on August 21, 2022, 10:04:37 AM
Tonight's "Countryfile" right now on BBC celebrates the 150th birthday of RVW at his house in Surrey, with a performance of the Lark Ascending to boot.

I don't know how well his violin was miked but the outdoor solo performance sounded a bit ropey to me. What I found more disconcerting was the impression given that RVW only composed one piece of music and this was after the war. Also, during much of the first part of the report about Leith Hill Place and RVW, they played a lot of unrelated incidental music - why for God's sake?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on August 22, 2022, 06:16:52 AM
That was a bit of a damp squib after all, sorry  :-[

I posted about it when they mentioned it in the opening minutes then we had to wait for the last measly 5 or 8 minutes to see RVW being mentioned again...and I missed most of it (the house bit) because I was preparing dinner... The violin sounded even worse from the kitchen  :laugh:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 25, 2022, 03:11:37 AM
Review of Boult ICA CD:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Aug/VW-sys-ICAC5164.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 26, 2022, 07:22:27 AM
64th anniversary of VW's death today (26/08/1958)

New release: Vaughan Williams on Brass (one for Karl I suspect  :))
Includes
Flourish for Band
English Folk Song Suite
Sea Songs
Henry V
The Truth from Above
Prelude on Rhosymedre (the organ version of which was played at my wedding!)
Suite from 49th Parallel
Prelude on Three Welsh Hymns
Tuba Concerto
Variations for Brass Band
Quite a few are first recordings of new editions or arrangements - all very enjoyable. I especially like the English Folksong Suite in this version:
(//)

Gets a rave review here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Jul/RVW-brass-ALBCD052.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 27, 2022, 01:49:50 AM
On Wenlock Edge is a very familiar and much-loved piece.  I've been listening to a few performances recently and a couple of things have struck me.  The received wisdom is how much it reflects/benefits from RVW's recent studies with Ravel.  That is true on a technical basis.  But surely the real miracle of this work is how around this time RVW really discovers his own extraordinary musical voice.  In this song cycle the fusion of Housman's evocative poetry and RVW's immersion in the folksong and heritage of the UK bursts forth quite without compare in British music at this time.  Elgar never wrote a substantial song cycle, I suppose some of Parry & Stanford's songs are of a reasonable stature but they, like Somervell's Maud are distinctly tied to the 19th century/salon tradition.  Even RVW's earlier cycle - House of Life and the wonderful Songs of Travel are likewise more of the 19th century.  The suddenly Wenlock Edge BURSTS out in a new and revelatory manner paving the way for Butterworth/Gurney/Quilter etc.

Of course there have been many fine versions of Wenlock Edge - Ian Partridge's sublime version has been my reference for many years - the absolute embodiment of the sound and aesthetic of English Song.  But much of the above has been prompted by hearing this version which was quite new to me;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/x7cAAOSwdXlhspY5/s-l640.png)

James Gilchrist brings an operatic near expressionist intensity to his singing which lifts these beautiful songs out of the "folksy" slightly rum-ti-tum into something far more powerful.  Likewise the Fitzwilliam Quartet play beautifully (when required) but also with a bite and edge (pardon the pun....) that is not all that common in this work.  Superb SACD sound from LINN and a compelling programme including Warlock's profound "The Curlew" and Gurney's Housman cycle with quartet "Ludlow and Teme".  Tremendous music performed with complete conviction!

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 27, 2022, 03:02:47 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 27, 2022, 01:49:50 AM
On Wenlock Edge is a very familiar and much-loved piece.  I've been listening to a few performances recently and a couple of things have struck me.  The received wisdom is how much it reflects/benefits from RVW's recent studies with Ravel.  That is true on a technical basis.  But surely the real miracle of this work is how around this time RVW really discovers his own extraordinary musical voice.  In this song cycle the fusion of Housman's evocative poetry and RVW's immersion in the folksong and heritage of the UK bursts forth quite without compare in British music at this time.  Elgar never wrote a substantial song cycle, I suppose some of Parry & Stanford's songs are of a reasonable stature but they, like Somervell's Maud are distinctly tied to the 19th century/salon tradition.  Even RVW's earlier cycle - House of Life and the wonderful Songs of Travel are likewise more of the 19th century.  The suddenly Wenlock Edge BURSTS out in a new and revelatory manner paving the way for Butterworth/Gurney/Quilter etc.

Of course there have been many fine versions of Wenlock Edge - Ian Partridge's sublime version has been my reference for many years - the absolute embodiment of the sound and aesthetic of English Song.  But much of the above has been prompted by hearing this version which was quite new to me;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/x7cAAOSwdXlhspY5/s-l640.png)

James Gilchrist brings an operatic near expressionist intensity to his singing which lifts these beautiful songs out of the "folksy" slightly rum-ti-tum into something far more powerful.  Likewise the Fitzwilliam Quartet play beautifully (when required) but also with a bite and edge (pardon the pun....) that is not all that common in this work.  Superb SACD sound from LINN and a compelling programme including Warlock's profound "The Curlew" and Gurney's Housman cycle with quartet "Ludlow and Teme".  Tremendous music performed with complete conviction!
Nice analysis RS. Yes, it's a fine CD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 27, 2022, 06:42:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 26, 2022, 07:22:27 AM
64th anniversary of VW's death today (26/08/1958)

New release: Vaughan Williams on Brass (one for Karl I suspect  :))
Includes
Flourish for Band
English Folk Song Suite
Sea Songs
Henry V
The Truth from Above
Prelude on Rhosymedre (the organ version of which was played at my wedding!)
Suite from 49th Parallel
Prelude on Three Welsh Hymns
Tuba Concerto
Variations for Brass Band
Quite a few are first recordings of new editions or arrangements - all very enjoyable. I especially like the English Folksong Suite in this version:
(//)

Gets a rave review here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Jul/RVW-brass-ALBCD052.htm

Looks very nice!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 27, 2022, 09:59:16 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 27, 2022, 06:42:47 AM
Looks very nice!
Am sure that you'd enjoy it Karl.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on August 31, 2022, 01:59:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 26, 2022, 07:22:27 AM
64th anniversary of VW's death today (26/08/1958)

New release: Vaughan Williams on Brass (one for Karl I suspect  :))
Includes
Flourish for Band
English Folk Song Suite
Sea Songs
Henry V
The Truth from Above
Prelude on Rhosymedre (the organ version of which was played at my wedding!)
Suite from 49th Parallel
Prelude on Three Welsh Hymns
Tuba Concerto
Variations for Brass Band
Quite a few are first recordings of new editions or arrangements - all very enjoyable. I especially like the English Folksong Suite in this version:
(//)

Gets a rave review here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Jul/RVW-brass-ALBCD052.htm

Another review here, Jeffrey.
http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2022/08/vaughan-williams-on-brass.html
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on August 31, 2022, 06:26:46 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 31, 2022, 01:59:52 AM
Another review here, Jeffrey.
http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2022/08/vaughan-williams-on-brass.html

Nice, thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 31, 2022, 06:51:09 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 31, 2022, 01:59:52 AM
Another review here, Jeffrey.
http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2022/08/vaughan-williams-on-brass.html
Thanks Lol. Read with interest. I can relate to the point about 'those of us of a certain age' remembering the centenary celebrations of 1972! I remember them well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 12, 2022, 12:27:25 PM
Albion Recods last release of this 150th Anniversary year includes a couple of tracks that seem especially apt in the light of Queen Elizabeth's passing.

(https://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/1659703538_ALBCD053.jpg)
(I'm not smitten by the cover painting!)

First is a previous release of the great RVW hymn tune "For All the Saints" but for this release organist David Briggs has added an improvisation on the same tune - as if for the recessional at a service which somehow seems rather magnificent.  Then the disc finishes with a track previously released - another RVW hymn tune - this time "Randolph" which he set to the words "God be with you till we meet again".  Quite beautifuly sung, a gorgeous arrangement and very touching I found......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on September 12, 2022, 01:44:51 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 12, 2022, 12:27:25 PM
(I'm not smitten by the cover painting!)

Not smitten...?
It is just really  bad!

There are enough good photographs and some excellent drawings of RVW.
Let's quickly listen to some lovely music and try to forget that awful portrait  : Three preludes on Welsh Hymn Tunes for string orchestra

https://youtu.be/s3Bc9BRTwWA

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on September 12, 2022, 06:23:15 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 12, 2022, 12:27:25 PM
Albion Recods last release of this 150th Anniversary year includes a couple of tracks that seem especially apt in the light of Quenn Elizabeth's passing.

(https://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/1659703538_ALBCD053.jpg)
(I'm not smitten by the cover painting!)

First is a previous release of the great RVW hymn tune "For All the Saints" but for this release organist David Briggs has added an improvisation on the same tune - as if for the recessional at a service which somehow seems rather magnificent.  Then the disc finishes with a track previously released - another RVW hymn tune - this time "Randolph" which he set to the words "God be with you till we meet again".  Quite beautifuly sung, a gorgeous arrangement and very touching I found......

Horrendous painting and design. Candidate for worst album art ever.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 12, 2022, 08:50:28 PM
I think it's supposed to be a parody of the famous portrait of J S Bach where he is holding a piece of manuscript paper with the theme from the Art of Fugue (or is it the Musical Offering?) written on it. However, I agree, terrible picture.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 12, 2022, 09:40:14 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 12, 2022, 08:50:28 PM
I think it's supposed to be a parody of the famous portrait of J S Bach where he is holding a piece of manuscript paper with the theme from the Art of Fugue (or is it the Musical Offering?) written on it. However, I agree, terrible picture.
Yes, it's awful - worst I've seen.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 15, 2022, 07:43:01 AM
Latest Gramophone Magazine:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 18, 2022, 07:22:09 AM
I've recently been singing the praises of the free download of the "Big English Music Box" from ClassicSelect

https://www.classicselectworld.com/collections/free-downloads/products/big-english-music-box

the more I have listened the more I have enjoyed.  I know/own many of the performances in their original CD releases which is why I'd never bother buying this "box" before - why pay for so much duplication?!  BUT, then today I stumbled across tracks 92 & 93 which are two early/very rare Vaughan Williams duets for soprano and baritone.  Yes they are a bit twee and also rather Victorian parlour-ish (they date from 1903) but lovely to hear and fascinating at filling out further the sense of the remarkable creative journey RVW made from worthy student composer to mature individual genius.  These were written just a year before the Songs of Travel which represent a massive leap forward and just five before On Wenlock Edge.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Peter Power Pop on September 18, 2022, 04:23:15 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 18, 2022, 07:22:09 AM
I've recently been singing the praises of the free download of the "Big English Music Box" from ClassicSelect

https://www.classicselectworld.com/collections/free-downloads/products/big-english-music-box

the more I have listened the more I have enjoyed.  I know/own many of the performances in their original CD releases which is why I'd never bother buying this "box" before - why pay for so much duplication?!  BUT, then today I stumbled across tracks 92 & 93 which are two early/very rare Vaughan Williams duets for soprano and baritone.  Yes they are a bit twee and also rather Victorian parlour-ish (they date from 1903) but lovely to hear and fascinating at filling out further the sense of the remarkable creative journey RVW made from worthy student composer to mature individual genius.  These were written just a year before the Songs of Travel which represent a massive leap forward and just five before On Wenlock Edge.

Thanks for letting us know about the Big English Music Box. I just downloaded it. Fabulous!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on September 18, 2022, 04:29:27 PM
I listened to the Boult/EMI recordings of the 4th and 5th symphonies today and really enjoyed both of them! Anyone else listening to Boult's RVW lately? I understand it's probably old news for most of you. Was it the first complete RVW cycle to be recorded?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 18, 2022, 04:47:42 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 18, 2022, 04:29:27 PM
I listened to the Boult/EMI recordings of the 4th and 5th symphonies today and really enjoyed both of them! Anyone else listening to Boult's RVW lately? I understand it's probably old news for most of you. Was it the first complete RVW cycle to be recorded?

I have the Boult/EMI box set and I revisited all RVW's symphonies some moths ago; definitely a great experience, because I didn't remember those works were so terribly good and made me revalue Vaughan Williams as a composer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 18, 2022, 11:27:25 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 18, 2022, 04:29:27 PM
I listened to the Boult/EMI recordings of the 4th and 5th symphonies today and really enjoyed both of them! Anyone else listening to Boult's RVW lately? I understand it's probably old news for most of you. Was it the first complete RVW cycle to be recorded?

Yes & No!  YES because it WAS Boult with the LPO who recorded the 1st complete cycle (nearly) for Decca - still available and just being released in new masterings by Pristine

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyMzg5NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0ODc1NDY4MjJ9)
(this was the last Decca remastering)

NO because Decca did not record No.9.  The same artists recorded that symphony for Everest (in stereo on the day of the composer's death) but the box above does include the Everest performance to make the cycle "complete"
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 18, 2022, 11:50:45 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 18, 2022, 11:27:25 PM
Yes & No!  YES because it WAS Boult with the LPO who recorded the 1st complete cycle (nearly) for Decca - still available and just being released in new masterings by Pristine

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyMzg5NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0ODc1NDY4MjJ9)
(this was the last Decca remastering)

NO because Decca did not record No.9.  The same artists recorded that symphony for Everest (in stereo on the day of the composer's death) but the box above does include the Everest performance to make the cycle "complete"
+ you get VW's recorded speech of thanks to the orchestra after Symphony No.6 and Boult's tribute to VW (on the day of his death) before Symphony No.9
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on September 30, 2022, 09:41:02 AM
New arrival. This biography, in 'The Master Musicians' series replaces the one by the late James Day:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 08, 2022, 10:47:48 AM
Arrived today - not to be missed:

The 'big tune' towards the end of the first movement (6th Symphony) steers a middle position between Barbirolli's more 'romantic' treatment (Orfeo CD and 70th Birthday concert) and Boult's more objective treatment which IMO works best. Boult's objective way with Vaughan Williams really suits the 6th and 7th symphonies. Brabbins is just as good in better sound (I prefer Boult's slower pacing in the Epilogue however). This is a terrific performance in all respects which takes me back 50 years to the Centenary Concert (Boult) on October 12th 1972 in the Festival Hall in London (Symphony No.8, Job, On Wenlock Edge etc). Brabbins and the BBC SO have done Vaughan Williams proud.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2022, 12:48:56 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 08, 2022, 10:47:48 AM
Arrived today - not to be missed:

The 'big tune' towards the end of the first movement (6th Symphony) steers a middle position between Barbirolli's more 'romantic' treatment (Orfeo CD and 70th Birthday concert) and Boult's more objective treatment which IMO works best. Boult's objective way with Vaughan Williams really suits the 6th and 7th symphonies. Brabbins is just as good in better sound (I prefer Boult's slower pacing in the Epilogue however). This is a terrific performance in all respects which takes me back 50 years to the Centenary Concert (Boult) on October 12th 1972 in the Festival Hall in London (Symphony No.8, Job, On Wenlock Edge etc). Brabbins and the BBC SO have done Vaughan Williams proud.


As far as I know NO performance of the Epilogue of No.6 actually plays it as FAST as the published score marking suggests.  I agree the Boult/Decca 'feels' impressively right but its a LOT slower than the tempo marking.  Yet this is the performance that RVW specifically praises in the little recorded speech included with the Decca set.  So a great example of a composer indicating one thing yet then approving some quite different.  On a slight tangent - there is a new book written by Nigel Simeone about the correspondance/relationship between Boult and RVW which is absolutely fascinating - quite a lot of the time little tweaks and suggestions going to and froe..... (just published by Boydell)

(https://cdn.waterstones.com/bookjackets/large/9781/7832/9781783277292.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 08, 2022, 12:50:56 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 08, 2022, 10:47:48 AM
Arrived today - not to be missed:

The 'big tune' towards the end of the first movement (6th Symphony) steers a middle position between Barbirolli's more 'romantic' treatment (Orfeo CD and 70th Birthday concert) and Boult's more objective treatment which IMO works best. Boult's objective way with Vaughan Williams really suits the 6th and 7th symphonies. Brabbins is just as good in better sound (I prefer Boult's slower pacing in the Epilogue however). This is a terrific performance in all respects which takes me back 50 years to the Centenary Concert (Boult) on October 12th 1972 in the Festival Hall in London (Symphony No.8, Job, On Wenlock Edge etc). Brabbins and the BBC SO have done Vaughan Williams proud.

I'm sorely tempted by the Brabbins RVW. I enjoyed his recording of A London Symphony a lot, and am inclined to pick up his recordings of my favorites, 9, 8, 6, 3, maybe 5 and 4. I haven't kept track of which ones he's done so far.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 08, 2022, 01:11:38 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2022, 12:48:56 PM
As far as I know NO performance of the Epilogue of No.6 actually plays it as FAST as the published score marking suggests.  I agree the Boult/Decca 'feels' impressively right but its a LOT slower than the tempo marking.  Yet this is the performance that RVW specifically praises in the little recorded speech included with the Decca set.  So a great example of a composer indicating one thing yet then approving some quite different.  On a slight tangent - there is a new book written by Nigel Simeone about the correspondance/relationship between Boult and RVW which is absolutely fascinating - quite a lot of the time little tweaks and suggestions going to and froe..... (just published by Boydell)

(https://cdn.waterstones.com/bookjackets/large/9781/7832/9781783277292.jpg)
Thanks. Even without any technical musical knowledge I figured that must be the case with the VW Epilogue to Symphony No.6 as almost everyone other than Boult plays it much faster (Abravanel is the other exception). The Boult/VW book looks great but a bit too expensive for me (I have an earlier book about Boult's letters, including some to VW).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2022, 11:19:16 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 08, 2022, 12:50:56 PM
I'm sorely tempted by the Brabbins RVW. I enjoyed his recording of A London Symphony a lot, and am inclined to pick up his recordings of my favorites, 9, 8, 6, 3, maybe 5 and 4. I haven't kept track of which ones he's done so far.

Just 7 & 9 to be released and that disc appeared in the latest Hyperion "coming soon" email but with no specific date but I guess before this anniversary year ends.  I have not heard any of the Manze cycle so cannot compare but I have enjoyed this Brabbins cycle a lot.  Very well recorded and well played - my only big "blot" was the way too small voiced baritone in the Sea Symphony.  I've enjoyed the unusual couplings too - but I know that is of little concern to some folk.  For me certainly a much better cycle than Elder of the most recent sets I do know.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 08, 2022, 11:33:24 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2022, 11:19:16 PM
Just 7 & 9 to be released and that disc appeared in the latest Hyperion "coming soon" email but with no specific date but I guess before this anniversary year ends.  I have not heard any of the Manze cycle so cannot compare but I have enjoyed this Brabbins cycle a lot.  Very well recorded and well played - my only big "blot" was the way too small voiced baritone in the Sea Symphony.  I've enjoyed the unusual couplings too - but I know that is of little concern to some folk.  For me certainly a much better cycle than Elder of the most recent sets I do know.
Yes, I agree although Elder's 'A Pastoral Symphony' was excellent as was 'Job'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 09, 2022, 02:58:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 08, 2022, 11:33:24 PM
Yes, I agree although Elder's 'A Pastoral Symphony' was excellent as was 'Job'.

I agree the Pastoral is one of Elder's best but let down for me by a soprano who forces not floats her solos.  This should surely sound ethereal not operatically intense!  But my point was the Brabbins cycle - albeit still incomplete.  I haven't heard any of the Manze as I have a wholly illogical and unsupported indifference to his work (I still harbour an irritation how he went from being "baroque violin specialist" to "british music conductor specialist" seemingly overnight....)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on October 09, 2022, 05:21:03 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 09, 2022, 02:58:58 AM
I agree the Pastoral is one of Elder's best but let down for me by a soprano who forces not floats her solos.  This should surely sound ethereal not operatically intense!  But my point was the Brabbins cycle - albeit still incomplete.  I haven't heard any of the Manze as I have a wholly illogical and unsupported indifference to his work (I still harbour an irritation how he went from being "baroque violin specialist" to "british music conductor specialist" seemingly overnight....)

I have wondered about that myself. I do like his Baroque violin work, his Bach concertos are great. Not sure how that translates to great Vaughan Williams, but perhaps we do owe it to the guy to give him a shot  :laugh:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 09, 2022, 01:42:19 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2022, 11:19:16 PM
Just 7 & 9 to be released and that disc appeared in the latest Hyperion "coming soon" email but with no specific date but I guess before this anniversary year ends.  I have not heard any of the Manze cycle so cannot compare but I have enjoyed this Brabbins cycle a lot.  Very well recorded and well played - my only big "blot" was the way too small voiced baritone in the Sea Symphony.  I've enjoyed the unusual couplings too - but I know that is of little concern to some folk.  For me certainly a much better cycle than Elder of the most recent sets I do know.

Ok, to be released. That will give me a cooling off period to come to my senses (given the number of RVW symphony cycles I've yet to find time to listen to). :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on October 10, 2022, 03:34:09 AM
And here we are, two days away from the big anniversary. What are your listening plans for the big day and surrounding?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 10, 2022, 03:38:09 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 10, 2022, 03:34:09 AM
And here we are, two days away from the big anniversary. What are your listening plans for the big day and surrounding?
I'll probably play 'Job' which I heard for the first time at the 100th Anniversary concert in London 50 years ago (conducted by Boult) and maybe the new Brabbins CD featuring symphonies 6 and 8 which is one of the best VW CDs that I have bought in a long time.
PS New release
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2022, 06:36:51 PM
Happy 150th Birthday RVW!
(born 12th October 1872)

(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 11, 2022, 07:22:56 PM
Happy birthday!

Here another nice pic as a child:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2022, 07:59:40 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 11, 2022, 06:36:51 PM
Happy 150th Birthday RVW!
(born 12th October 1872)

(//)
I knew that you would be the first to post Jeffrey!  ;D ;)

Will be his birthday here very soon.

Happy birthday Ralph!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2022, 08:01:03 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 11, 2022, 07:22:56 PM
Happy birthday!

Here another nice pic as a child:
Sweet photo.  How old was he there?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2022, 09:16:08 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2022, 07:59:40 PM
I knew that you would be the first to post Jeffrey!  ;D ;)

Will be his birthday here very soon.

Happy birthday Ralph!

PD
:)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/classical-music/young-vaughan-williams-childhood-shaped-britains-favourite-composer/
Not sure if article will download.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2022, 09:47:40 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 11, 2022, 09:16:08 PM
:)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/classical-music/young-vaughan-williams-childhood-shaped-britains-favourite-composer/
Not sure if article will download.
No, unfortunately, I would need to sign up; free initially, but then would be  pay-to-view.  But thank you anyway!

PD

p.s.  I did find this even earlier one on the RVW Society's website.  It's from 1876.  So he would have been about 4 years old then.  (https://rvwsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/VW-child.jpg)

For those who haven't visited the site before (or perhaps might want to revisit it), it's a wonderful resource!  https://rvwsociety.com
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 11, 2022, 11:06:52 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2022, 08:01:03 PM
Sweet photo.  How old was he there?

PD
The Pictorial Biography dates that photo as from 1889, so he was probably c.16.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 12, 2022, 12:41:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 11, 2022, 11:06:52 PM
The Pictorial Biography dates that photo as from 1889, so he was probably c.16.
Thanks, Jeffrey.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2022, 05:38:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 10, 2022, 03:38:09 AM
I'll probably play 'Job' which I heard for the first time at the 100th Anniversary concert in London 50 years ago (conducted by Boult) and maybe the new Brabbins CD featuring symphonies 6 and 8 which is one of the best VW CDs that I have bought in a long time.
PS New release
(//)

A very interesting release - the "Thanksgiving for Victory" is the actual 1st performance pre-recorded on November 5th 1944 but not broadcast until May 13th 1945.  For the 1950's recording it was slightly changed and the title became the less tub-thumping "A Song of Thanksgiving".  Job is with the Boston SO - can't think of ANY recoridng of this score played by a non-British orchestra.  Also, this is Boult's 1st recording - his first studio version was made a year later.....  The re-mastering on this SOMM disc is by Lani Spahr who has done fantastic work on other archive recordings.

Fun fact of the day - the 2 producers on the 1950's A Song of Thanksgiving were Lawrence Collingwood who worked with Elgar and George Martin of The Beatles fame!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 05:44:15 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2022, 05:38:32 AM
A very interesting release - the "Thanksgiving for Victory" is the actual 1st performance pre-recorded on November 5th 1944 but not broadcast until May 13th 1945.  For the 1950's recording it was slightly changed and the title became the less tub-thumping "A Song of Thanksgiving".  Job is with the Boston SO - can't think of ANY recoridng of this score played by a non-British orchestra.  Also, this is Boult's 1st recording - his first studio version was made a year later.....  The re-mastering on this SOMM disc is by Lani Spahr who has done fantastic work on other archive recordings.

Fun fact of the day - the 2 producers on the 1950's A Song of Thanksgiving were Lawrence Collingwood who worked with Elgar and George Martin of The Beatles fame!
That's so interesting RS! Thanks.
I rather like the quirky 'Thanksgiving for Victory/Song of Thanksgiving' and had no idea that Job was with the Boston SO. Another Disc of the Year I suspect!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 12, 2022, 05:53:55 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2022, 07:59:40 PM
I knew that you would be the first to post Jeffrey!  ;D ;)

Will be his birthday here very soon.

Happy birthday Ralph!

PD

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2022, 06:44:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 05:44:15 AM
That's so interesting RS! Thanks.
I rather like the quirky 'Thanksgiving for Victory/Song of Thanksgiving' and had no idea that Job was with the Boston SO. Another Disc of the Year I suspect!

I see your programme note for the latest Alto/RVW disc gets a mention on today's MusicWeb review!  Do you know the original Collins/Marriner disc which coupled Symphonies 5&6 - its a very good disc and an excellent No.6 .... since you mention the new Brabbins as your favourite recent version I think this Marriner ain't too shoddy either!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 12, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872 - 1958)

Overture The Wasps
Fantasia on Greensleeves
Serenade to Music - version for orchestra, chorus & four soloists
Towards the Unknown Region

Sir Malcolm Sargent conducting the London Symphony Orchestra with chorus (unnamed) and soloists

This was the content of the first ever LP I bought and so the start of my RVW journey.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2022, 08:00:20 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 12, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872 - 1958)

Overture The Wasps
Fantasia on Greensleeves
Serenade to Music - version for orchestra, chorus & four soloists
Towards the Unknown Region

Sir Malcolm Sargent conducting the London Symphony Orchestra with chorus (unnamed) and soloists

This was the content of the first ever LP I bought and so the start of my RVW journey.

The original LP credits Peter Gellhorn as Chorus master - he directed the BBC Chorus from 1961 (this LP was first released in 1964) so I guess it was the BBC Chorus on this recording (RVW helped get Gellhorn released from detention on the Isle of Man during the War!)

Yes - the Angel listing for this LP on Discogs list it as;

Chorus Master – Peter Gellhorn (tracks: A1, B1)
Chorus [Uncredited] – BBC Symphony Chorus (tracks: A1, B1)
Composed By – Ralph Vaughan Williams
Conductor – Sir Malcolm Sargent
Orchestra – The London Symphony Orchestra
Producer [Uncredited] – Victor Olof
Soloist, Bass Vocals – Trevor Anthony (tracks: A1)
Soloist, Contralto Vocals – Marjorie Thomas (tracks: A1)
Soloist, Soprano Vocals – Elsie Morison (tracks: A1)
Soloist, Tenor Vocals – Duncan Robertson (3) (tracks: A1)


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 08:55:33 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2022, 06:44:05 AM
I see your programme note for the latest Alto/RVW disc gets a mention on today's MusicWeb review!  Do you know the original Collins/Marriner disc which coupled Symphonies 5&6 - its a very good disc and an excellent No.6 .... since you mention the new Brabbins as your favourite recent version I think this Marriner ain't too shoddy either!
Thanks for noticing that!
Yes, I really like those Marriner performances. I was trying to get Robin the boss at Alto to reissue it, but he is not too keen - I think that there were some poor reviews of the Collins CD. I agree with you and think that Marriner's recording of No.6 has an oddly compassionate quality which is not evident in other recordings. I will keep pushing for Alto to release it. I'm looking forward to receiving the remastered Boult LPO account (Pristine). I also like Berglund's sibelian account and the recently released Sargent recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 08:57:13 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 12, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872 - 1958)

Overture The Wasps
Fantasia on Greensleeves
Serenade to Music - version for orchestra, chorus & four soloists
Towards the Unknown Region

Sir Malcolm Sargent conducting the London Symphony Orchestra with chorus (unnamed) and soloists

This was the content of the first ever LP I bought and so the start of my RVW journey.
A famous old LP - although I have to say that it's largely a collection of my least favourite VW works!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 12, 2022, 09:05:26 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 12, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872 - 1958)

Overture The Wasps
Fantasia on Greensleeves
Serenade to Music - version for orchestra, chorus & four soloists
Towards the Unknown Region

Sir Malcolm Sargent conducting the London Symphony Orchestra with chorus (unnamed) and soloists

This was the content of the first ever LP I bought and so the start of my RVW journey.
Sweet!  :)

Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 08:57:13 AM
A famous old LP - although I have to say that it's largely a collection of my least favourite VW works!
Must admit that I'm not a big fan of the Wasps overture (maybe because I'm allergic to their stings?).

PD

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 09:18:37 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 12, 2022, 09:05:26 AM
Sweet!  :)
Must admit that I'm not a big fan of the Wasps overture (maybe because I'm allergic to their stings?).

PD
Haha - funnily enough I heard the Wasps live recently and really enjoyed it. I prefer the Serenade to Music without all the singing :o
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 01:18:58 PM
Martin Brabbyns talking about the VW symphonies today (may not be available outside the UK)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0017629
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 12, 2022, 01:37:37 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 01:18:58 PM
Martin Brabbyns talking about the VW symphonies today (may not be available outside the UK)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0017629

Thanks! Listening now.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 12, 2022, 02:31:36 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 12, 2022, 01:37:37 PM
Thanks! Listening now.

Very enjoyable, Jeffrey. Thanks again!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on October 12, 2022, 05:12:30 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 01:18:58 PM
Martin Brabbyns talking about the VW symphonies today (may not be available outside the UK)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0017629

Fascinating idea of a first movement in search of a theme.  So Brabbins describes No. 8's first movement.  I will apply that to my own music too!  Wonderful traversal of a major symphonist.  This talk made me realize that No. 6's enigmatic ending is closely tied to No. 1's ending.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 06:01:32 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 12, 2022, 01:37:37 PM
Thanks! Listening now.
Excellent Karl :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 06:05:18 PM
Quote from: relm1 on October 12, 2022, 05:12:30 PM
Fascinating idea of a first movement in search of a theme.  So Brabbins describes No. 8's first movement.  I will apply that to my own music too!  Wonderful traversal of a major symphonist.  This talk made me realize that No. 6's enigmatic ending is closely tied to No. 1's ending.
Yes, that really interested me Karim as did his comparison of the opening of No.1 'A Sea Symphony' and the ending of No.9 - as if Vaughan Williams had come full circle. I'm glad that the programme is available outside the UK. I thought that Brabbins came across well. I was interested in the choice of recordings including Andrew Davis's Bergen account of No.7, Previn's No.4 (considered by some to be the weakest in his cycle), Brabbins's own No.5 (excellent), Boult's EMI No.6, Jurowski's No.8, Elder's 'A Sea Symphony' etc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2022, 11:14:32 PM
Quote from: relm1 on October 12, 2022, 05:12:30 PM
Fascinating idea of a first movement in search of a theme.  So Brabbins describes No. 8's first movement.  I will apply that to my own music too!  Wonderful traversal of a major symphonist.  This talk made me realize that No. 6's enigmatic ending is closely tied to No. 1's ending.

to the bolded quote - that is the composer's own description of this movement
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 13, 2022, 02:38:04 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2022, 08:00:20 AM
The original LP credits Peter Gellhorn as Chorus master - he directed the BBC Chorus from 1961 (this LP was first released in 1964) so I guess it was the BBC Chorus on this recording (RVW helped get Gellhorn released from detention on the Isle of Man during the War!)

Yes - the Angel listing for this LP on Discogs list it as;

Chorus Master – Peter Gellhorn (tracks: A1, B1)
Chorus [Uncredited] – BBC Symphony Chorus (tracks: A1, B1)
Composed By – Ralph Vaughan Williams
Conductor – Sir Malcolm Sargent
Orchestra – The London Symphony Orchestra
Producer [Uncredited] – Victor Olof
Soloist, Bass Vocals – Trevor Anthony (tracks: A1)
Soloist, Contralto Vocals – Marjorie Thomas (tracks: A1)
Soloist, Soprano Vocals – Elsie Morison (tracks: A1)
Soloist, Tenor Vocals – Duncan Robertson (3) (tracks: A1)

Thanks for the info, not all of it is on the CD release and I no longer have the LP.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 13, 2022, 03:52:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 09:18:37 AM
Haha - funnily enough I heard the Wasps live recently and really enjoyed it. I prefer the Serenade to Music without all the singing :o
I'll have to see if I have a recording of the Serenade without the singers--think that I do.

Thank you for mentioning that BBC Radio program.  I just saw your posting about it and clicked on it.  It's available for another 29 days to listen to.

PD

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Peter Power Pop on October 13, 2022, 03:09:18 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2022, 01:18:58 PM
Martin Brabbyns talking about the VW symphonies today (may not be available outside the UK)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0017629

I'm in Australia and it plays A-OK.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 13, 2022, 10:00:09 PM
Quote from: Peter Power Pop on October 13, 2022, 03:09:18 PM
I'm in Australia and it plays A-OK.
Excellent - pleased to hear it!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 13, 2022, 10:32:47 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0017dqr

Yesterday there was another programme, about the composer's relations with his two wives Adeline and Ursula (with whom I communicated by letter a few times). He was married to Adeline for 50 years, but she remains a somewhat shadowy figure. I heard a bit of the programme on the car radio yesterday but didn't hear it all. There are some quite extended relevant musical extracts. I'll try to listen properly over the weekend.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 13, 2022, 11:22:56 PM
I've been listening to SOMM's Vaughan Williams Live Vol.2 disc;

(https://i.ndcd.net/2/Item/200/590701.jpg)

The version of "Thanksgiving for Victory" is important as its the performance that was recorded/broadcast to celebrate victory in Europe so its a historical document aside from any musical merits
Serenade to Music is in the 4 soloists and chorus version and was broadcast on the inaugural evening of The Third Programme (good performance but the worst audio on the disc so not as interesting)
Job - this is a stunning live performance - very dramatic and powerful.  Very well played by the Boston SO (Boult also conducted this work with the Vienna PO, Concertgebouw & Chicago!).  Apparently the original tapes were very poor and suffered from pitch variations.  Restoration engineer/wizard Lani Spahr has done a tremendous job.  There is still some distortion and carrier wave interference but this is now very listenable and the performance carries the day.  This was recorded only 2 months before Boult's first studio recording of the work with the BBC SO for EMI.  That's the only Boult version I don't know but I'm guessing they are similar.  Love the cover image - RVW & Boult on the last day of the Decca sessions for Symphony 1 in 1954 (same image on Simeone's new - excellent - book).

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2022, 12:04:03 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 13, 2022, 11:22:56 PM
I've been listening to SOMM's Vaughan Williams Live Vol.2 disc;

(https://i.ndcd.net/2/Item/200/590701.jpg)

The version of "Thanksgiving for Victory" is important as its the performance that was recorded/broadcast to celebrate victory in Europe so its a historical document aside from any musical merits
Serenade to Music is in the 4 soloists and chorus version and was broadcast on the inaugural evening of The Third Programme (good performance but the worst audio on the disc so not as interesting)
Job - this is a stunning live performance - very dramatic and powerful.  Very well played by the Boston SO (Boult also conducted this work with the Vienna PO, Concertgebouw & Chicago!).  Apparently the original tapes were very poor and suffered from pitch variations.  Restoration engineer/wizard Lani Spahr has done a tremendous job.  There is still some distortion and carrier wave interference but this is now very listenable and the performance carries the day.  This was recorded only 2 months before Boult's first studio recording of the work with the BBC SO for EMI.  That's the only Boult version I don't know but I'm guessing they are similar.  Love the cover image - RVW & Boult on the last day of the Decca sessions for Symphony 1 in 1954 (same image on Simeone's new - excellent - book).
How come you always receive these CDs before I do!  ;D
Most interesting, especially re. 'Thanksgiving for Victory' and 'Job'. Of course, Job was dedicated to Boult so he probably recorded it more than any other VW work. Yes, great cover image. It also features on an old book about letters to and from Boult.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2022, 12:15:04 AM
Just noticed this - includes Boult's complete Decca VW symphonic cycle + Job, Old King Cole in their original sleeves:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 14, 2022, 01:01:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2022, 12:15:04 AM
Just noticed this - includes Boult's complete Decca VW symphonic cycle + Job, Old King Cole in their original sleeves:

Do I hear the wheels spinning in your head:  "I must buy this set.  I need it desperately!  But where will I fit it in my man cave?!  No matter, I will find the room!"?

I have this set of his early recordings of the symphonies:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

PD

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 14, 2022, 01:31:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2022, 12:15:04 AM
Just noticed this - includes Boult's complete Decca VW symphonic cycle + Job, Old King Cole in their original sleeves:
(//)

Just to tempt you further - this set also includes the NEVER BEFORE RELEASED Holst recordings by Boult ...... go on ...... press that order button ......... you know you want to ........need to ........... (not that I'm a devil sitting on your left shoulder or anything......... >:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 14, 2022, 02:17:29 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 13, 2022, 11:22:56 PM
I've been listening to SOMM's Vaughan Williams Live Vol.2 disc;

(https://i.ndcd.net/2/Item/200/590701.jpg)

The version of "Thanksgiving for Victory" is important as its the performance that was recorded/broadcast to celebrate victory in Europe so its a historical document aside from any musical merit
Serenade to Music is in the 4 soloists and chorus version and was broadcast on the inaugural evening of The Third Programme (good performance but the worst audio on the disc so not as interesting)
Job - this is a stunning live performance - very dramatic and powerful.  Very well played by the Boston SO (Boult also conducted this work with the Vienna PO, Concertgebouw & Chicago!).  Apparently the original tapes were very poor and suffered from pitch variations.  Restoration engineer/wizard Lani Spahr has done a tremendous job.  There is still some distortion and carrier wave interference but this is now very listenable and the performance carries the day.  This was recorded only 2 months before Boult's first studio recording of the work with the BBC SO for EMI.  That's the only Boult version I don't know but I'm guessing they are similar.  Love the cover image - RVW & Boult on the last day of the Decca sessions for Symphony 1 in 1954 (same image on Simeone's new - excellent - book).

Am I correct in assuming that this is the same performance that is on the Dutton disc from Vaughan Williams' attic - Boult/BBCSO, Elsie Suddaby (soprano), Valentine Dyall (speaker) & childrens choruses - recorded 15/11/44?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 14, 2022, 05:26:30 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 14, 2022, 02:17:29 AM
Am I correct in assuming that this is the same performance that is on the Dutton disc from Vaughan Williams' attic - Boult/BBCSO, Elsie Suddaby (soprano), Valentine Dyall (speaker) & childrens choruses - recorded 15/11/44?

correct - but it will be a new/different mastering...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2022, 06:55:23 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 14, 2022, 01:01:14 AM
Do I hear the wheels spinning in your head:  "I must buy this set.  I need it desperately!  But where will I fit it in my man cave?!  No matter, I will find the room!"?

I have this set of his early recordings of the symphonies:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

PD
You understand my thinking process very well PD.  8)
I also have the remastered Decca set and I suspect that the only advantage to acquiring the new Boult box is that you get the symphonies set in mini versions of their original sleeves. However, for someone like myself, this is not without considerable appeal. Also, you get one of the best versions of Bax's Tintagel, and some classic Holst and Arnold recordings as well. A pity that Boult's LPO recording of Walton's First Symphony is not included (my brother had the LP) but that was recorded for Pye and not Decca.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2022, 07:02:40 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 14, 2022, 05:26:30 AM
correct
Interesting. I have the 'VW's attic' CD as well. It has a nice 'Old King Cole' as well.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on October 14, 2022, 11:58:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2022, 06:55:23 AM
You understand my thinking process very well PD.  8)
I also have the remastered Decca set and I suspect that the only advantage to acquiring the new Boult box is that you get the symphonies set in mini versions of their original sleeves. However, for someone like myself, this is not without considerable appeal. Also, you get one of the best versions of Bax's Tintagel, and some classic Holst and Arnold recordings as well. A pity that Boult's LPO recording of Walton's First Symphony is not included (my brother had the LP) but that was recorded for Pye and not Decca.

Is this the Walton recording?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51rpkQi70vL._SY580_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51Y+oeiZn9L._SY580_.jpg)

The LP had a nice cover (imo)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41mQneTLY2L._SY580_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2022, 11:58:54 AM
I'm enjoying this CD ('a Vaughan Williams Hotchpotch') which was released on the composer's 150th birthday earlier this week. The organ version of 'The March Past of the Kitchen Utensils' from 'The Wasps Suite' is a highlight - a hoot!
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2022, 12:02:44 PM
Quote from: JBS on October 14, 2022, 11:58:11 AM
Is this the Walton recording?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51rpkQi70vL._SY580_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51Y+oeiZn9L._SY580_.jpg)

The LP had a nice cover (imo)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41mQneTLY2L._SY580_.jpg)
Yes, it is Jeffrey. That's the LP that my brother had. You can also find it in this impressive transfer:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 15, 2022, 04:41:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2022, 11:58:54 AM
I'm enjoying this CD ('a Vaughan Williams Hotchpotch') which was released on the composer's 150th birthday earlier this week. The organ version of 'The March Past of the Kitchen Utensils' from 'The Wasps Suite' is a highlight - a hoot!
(//)

I will have to try and find that on Spotify, meanwhile, listening to an organ transcription of The Wasps Overture played by David Briggs on Albion Records album Bursts of Acclamation
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on October 15, 2022, 08:00:19 AM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 2 [Barbirolli]


(https://i.discogs.com/HQjV1g8cJx24K0OuHS4ruEbQnZBrMQivfFnhVZWVijk/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:588/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTI1Mzcy/OTgtMTUxODAyNDk4/NC05NjIxLmpwZWc.jpeg)    (https://i.discogs.com/W8pMtX0iBT9DOKERI0If-4ekkCSGbN6WS9WmUD81PvY/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:574/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTI1Mzcy/OTgtMTUxODAyNDk5/My0yNTQ1LmpwZWc.jpeg)


The opening movement is a terrific kaleidoscope of sound which was well marshalled by Barbirolli. The movement finishes in a terrific blaze of glory.
The slow movement is a much more sedate affair but it is very atmospheric, intense yet sensitive presentation.
The third movement is a strong portrayal of this movement. It is energetic and it moves along very well. Barbirolli gives a very good account of this music's scoring.
The final movement is a strong but somewhat dark version of this movement. It is also quite an assertive and powerful presentation with Barbirolli unleashing the full power of Vaughan Williams' emotional writing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 15, 2022, 02:27:27 PM
Quote from: aligreto on October 15, 2022, 08:00:19 AM
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 2 [Barbirolli]


(https://i.discogs.com/HQjV1g8cJx24K0OuHS4ruEbQnZBrMQivfFnhVZWVijk/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:588/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTI1Mzcy/OTgtMTUxODAyNDk4/NC05NjIxLmpwZWc.jpeg)    (https://i.discogs.com/W8pMtX0iBT9DOKERI0If-4ekkCSGbN6WS9WmUD81PvY/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:574/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTI1Mzcy/OTgtMTUxODAyNDk5/My0yNTQ1LmpwZWc.jpeg)


The opening movement is a terrific kaleidoscope of sound which was well marshalled by Barbirolli. The movement finishes in a terrific blaze of glory.
The slow movement is a much more sedate affair but it is very atmospheric, intense yet sensitive presentation.
The third movement is a strong portrayal of this movement. It is energetic and it moves along very well. Barbirolli gives a very good account of this music's scoring.
The final movement is a strong but somewhat dark version of this movement. It is also quite an assertive and powerful presentation with Barbirolli unleashing the full power of Vaughan Williams' emotional writing.
I think that it's a fine performance Fergus. I seem to recall that there was some criticism of the scherzo being controversially slow but I rather like the performance.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aligreto on October 15, 2022, 02:45:43 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 15, 2022, 02:27:27 PM
I think that it's a fine performance Fergus. I seem to recall that there was some criticism of the scherzo being controversially slow but I rather like the performance.

I rather like the performance too, Jeffrey, and if we like it that is all that matters. I think that Barbirolli did a fine job here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2022, 12:47:15 AM
Quote from: aligreto on October 15, 2022, 02:45:43 PM
I rather like the performance too, Jeffrey, and if we like it that is all that matters. I think that Barbirolli did a fine job here.
As he did with his second recording of the 5th Symphony Fergus (one of my first encounters with his symphonies as my brother had the LP). I think that the original plan was for Barbirolli and Boult to share a VW symphony cycle (for EMI) but Barbirolli's death in 1970 (having only recorded the 2nd and 5th symphonies for EMI) put an end to that idea and Boult ended up recording a complete cycle himself.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 16, 2022, 08:51:06 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 13, 2022, 10:32:47 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0017dqr

Yesterday there was another programme, about the composer's relations with his two wives Adeline and Ursula (with whom I communicated by letter a few times). He was married to Adeline for 50 years, but she remains a somewhat shadowy figure. I heard a bit of the programme on the car radio yesterday but didn't hear it all. There are some quite extended relevant musical extracts. I'll try to listen properly over the weekend.


Thanks some more!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2022, 11:45:01 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.6 LPO Boult
This is the Pristine remastering of the greatest performance (IMO) of VW's greatest symphony (IMO).
I'm enormously attached to this performance partly for nostalgic/sentimental reasons as I impulse bought it in 1971 (aged c.16) from W H Smiths in the Earl's Court Road on my way home from school and it was a huge turning point for me in relation to classical music generally and Vaughan Williams in particular. I think that I bought that particular LP (Decca Eclipse Label - see below) as I was curious because it featured a 'short speech from the composer' - thanking Boult and the orchestra 'including the lady harpist'. I have to say that the Pristine CD sounds a bit shrill to me. I'm looking forward to comparing this version with the same recording in the Decca remastered VW symphonies boxed set and the Boult British Music Eloquence set.
PS The Epilogue is much louder than on my old LP (when I first played the LP I thought that something was wrong as I could hardly hear anything in the last movement). Boult takes this movement much slower than everyone else (and more slowly than the score indicates) but he had VW in the studio with him, who clearly thought it was right as evidenced in his short speech of thanks to Boult and the orchestra.



Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2022, 11:48:15 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2022, 08:51:06 AM
Thanks some more!
My pleasure  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 17, 2022, 01:20:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 16, 2022, 11:45:01 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.6 LPO Boult
This is the Pristine remastering of the greatest performance (IMO) of VW's greatest symphony (IMO).
I'm enormously attached to this performance partly for nostalgic/sentimental reasons as I impulse bought it in 1971 (aged c.16) from W H Smiths in the Earl's Court Road on my way home from school and it was a huge turning point for me in relation to classical music generally and Vaughan Williams in particular. I think that I bought that particular LP (Decca Eclipse Label - see below) as I was curious because it featured a 'short speech from the composer' - thanking Boult and the orchestra 'including the lady harpist'. I have to say that the Pristine CD sounds a bit shrill to me. I'm looking forward to comparing this version with the same recording in the Decca remastered VW symphonies boxed set and the Boult British Music Eloquence set.
PS The Epilogue is much louder than on my old LP (when I first played the LP I thought that something was wrong as I could hardly hear anything in the last movement). Boult takes this movement much slower than everyone else (and more slowly than the score indicates) but he had VW in the studio with him, who clearly thought it was right as evidenced in his short speech of thanks to Boult and the orchestra.
Looking forward to hearing your reviews of the two.

I recall reading some rather strange things about the three of theirs relationship (VW, Adeline and Ursula) ....I'll leave it at that.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 17, 2022, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 17, 2022, 01:20:56 AM
Looking forward to hearing your reviews of the two.

I recall reading some rather strange things about the three of theirs relationship (VW, Adeline and Ursula) ....I'll leave it at that.

PD

It was a sort-of ménage a trois. More information has come out in recent biographies/documentaries.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on October 18, 2022, 05:32:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 17, 2022, 10:49:24 PM
It was a sort-of ménage a trois. More information has come out in recent biographies/documentaries.

Good for him.  As an old man, working his magic and still having a good ol' time.  :laugh: 8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 18, 2022, 05:45:37 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 18, 2022, 05:32:48 AM
Good for him.  As an old man, working his magic and still having a good ol' time.  :laugh: 8)
;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 18, 2022, 06:56:04 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 17, 2022, 10:49:24 PM
It was a sort-of ménage a trois. More information has come out in recent biographies/documentaries.

That's the same thing I don't need to know about. Musicians produces music. I am not interested in anything else they do, unless I feel that my purchases might support abusive behavior. That is not a factor if the musician is no longer living.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 18, 2022, 08:50:58 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 18, 2022, 06:56:04 AM
That's the same thing I don't need to know about. Musicians produces music. I am not interested in anything else they do, unless I feel that my purchases might support abusive behavior. That is not a factor if the musician is no longer living.
Fair enough.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on October 18, 2022, 10:58:17 AM
Yeah, it's gonna take more than that to cancel our beloved RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 18, 2022, 11:45:30 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 18, 2022, 10:58:17 AM
Yeah, it's gonna take more than that to cancel our beloved RVW.
:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 18, 2022, 12:00:50 PM
Well, the story isn't exactly simple....but again, I didn't want to get into it (as I mentioned before) as I care more to focus on his works and also not speculate about someone's life and relationships.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 18, 2022, 12:06:31 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 18, 2022, 12:00:50 PM
Well, the story isn't exactly simple....but again, I didn't want to get into it (as I mentioned before) as I care more to focus on his works and also not speculate about someone's life and relationships.

PD

I don't think that interest in the music and interest in the life of the composer (including personal relationships) are mutually exclusive.
I'll wait for it all to 'kick off' now ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 18, 2022, 12:10:22 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 18, 2022, 12:06:31 PM
I don't think that interest in the music and interest in the life of the composer (including personal relationships) are mutually exclusive.
I'll wait for it all to 'kick off' now ;D
I have no idea what you mean about "kick off"?

PD

EdIt:  And yes, I try and understand about the times and background growing up, etc. of composers, but I don't think that your earlier comments re VW and what was going on were very helpful (as in from what we know by one of the three major people involved)....they came across as, pardon, but rather *salacious.  I don't believe that we know the whole story, but again, I really don't appreciate it when guys (and it's always guys from my experience who go into things like this and one of the reasons why I have left).  And that's how I feel.  Just being honest.

*and I hopefully you know more about the matter...like the wearing of the black and so forth?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 18, 2022, 03:39:49 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 18, 2022, 12:10:22 PM
I have no idea what you mean about "kick off"?

PD

EdIt:  And yes, I try and understand about the times and background growing up, etc. of composers, but I don't think that your earlier comments re VW and what was going on were very helpful (as in from what we know by one of the three major people involved)....they came across as, pardon, but rather *salacious.  I don't believe that we know the whole story, but again, I really don't appreciate it when guys (and it's always guys from my experience who go into things like this and one of the reasons why I have left).  And that's how I feel.  Just being honest.

*and I hopefully you know more about the matter...like the wearing of the black and so forth?

PD
'Kick off' - like a football match - in other words, arguments start off. My comment was a statement of what was going on in the composer's life is now largely accepted. During the Blitz the three of them (RVW, Adeline, Ursula) were together at one point (in the same house) and there is quite a charming story of them all holding hands during a bombing raid as they might all not be around the next morning. I'm not sure why you consider my comments 'salacious' nor do I understand why you feel the need to make a gender-based stereotype about them ('and it's always guys...')
'...the wearing of black and so forth' (not sure what you mean)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 19, 2022, 02:56:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 18, 2022, 03:39:49 PM
'Kick off' - like a football match - in other words, arguments start off. My comment was a statement of what was going on in the composer's life is now largely accepted. During the Blitz the three of them (RVW, Adeline, Ursula) were together at one point (in the same house) and there is quite a charming story of them all holding hands during a bombing raid as they might all not be around the next morning. I'm not sure why you consider my comments 'salacious' nor do I understand why you feel the need to make a gender-based stereotype about them ('and it's always guys...')
'...the wearing of black and so forth' (not sure what you mean)
Jeffrey,

Regarding wearing black:  From what I understood, Adeline was so distraught about her brother's death during WWI, that she wore black for the rest of her life which suggests to me that there were quite possibly mental health issues at her end (mentioned elsewhere too) and she apparently struggled with severe arthritis which became increasingly worse as she got older (so much so that she was wheelchair-bound by the time of the incident that you mentioned).  Again, I'm not a scholar, but I believe that he (VW) refused to leave her and was her caregiver.  So, yes, a strange arrangement.  Perhaps she gave them her blessing?  I don't know.  But to me, calling it a M à T (particularly without saying anything further) sounded to me at the time like the kind of thing that one would read in a gossip magazine (I think that it's the Guardian that has a current story about it which comes across that way?).  Sorry, I think that using the term "salacious" was a bad choice at my end.

As far as what I had said about men, this is from my personal experience being on classical music forums over the years.  I've never read any comments by women who have said things on threads about composers or performers or when their name(s) were mentioned (often after someone spoke about admiring their artistic skills) someone will blurt out something nasty about that composer or performer's personal life (true or rumored).  I don't know why some guys like to do this.  And how many women regularly contribute here?  I can think of three (including myself).  It's frustrating at my end and makes me feel sad--and often disgusted.  And no, I'm not trying to say that you were trying to make me feel that way as I think that you (from the little I know of you) are a nice person.  I just needed to get that off of my chest.

Hoping that I've made my thoughts clearer to you Jeffrey?  I'm just here to enjoy the music.

Best,

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on October 19, 2022, 03:04:43 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 19, 2022, 02:56:27 AM
Jeffrey,

Regarding wearing black:  From what I understood, Adeline was so distraught about her brother's death during WWI, that she wore black for the rest of her life which suggests to me that there were quite possibly mental health issues at her end (mentioned elsewhere too) and she apparently struggled with severe arthritis which became increasingly worse as she got older (so much so that she was wheelchair-bound by the time of the incident that you mentioned).  Again, I'm not a scholar, but I believe that he (VW) refused to leave her and was her caregiver.  So, yes, a strange arrangement.  Perhaps she gave them her blessing?  I don't know.  But to me, calling it a M à T (particularly without saying anything further) sounded to me at the time like the kind of thing that one would read in a gossip magazine (I think that it's the Guardian that has a current story about it which comes across that way?).  Sorry, I think that using the term "salacious" was a bad choice at my end.

As far as what I had said about men, this is from my personal experience being on classical music forums over the years.  I've never read any comments by women who have said things on threads about composers or performers or when their name(s) were mentioned (often after someone spoke about admiring their artistic skills) someone will blurt out something nasty about that composer or performer's personal life (true or rumored).  I don't know why some guys like to do this.  And how many women regularly contribute here?  I can think of three (including myself).  It's frustrating at my end and makes me feel sad--and often disgusted.  And no, I'm not trying to say that you were trying to make me feel that way as I think that you (from the little I know of you) are a nice person.  I just needed to get that off of my chest.

Hoping that I've made my thoughts clearer to you Jeffrey?  I'm just here to enjoy the music.

Best,

PD

For the sake of Adeline's health RVW moved out of London to the more rural surroundings of Dorking. He cared for her for over thirty years.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2022, 12:45:30 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 19, 2022, 02:56:27 AM
Jeffrey,

Regarding wearing black:  From what I understood, Adeline was so distraught about her brother's death during WWI, that she wore black for the rest of her life which suggests to me that there were quite possibly mental health issues at her end (mentioned elsewhere too) and she apparently struggled with severe arthritis which became increasingly worse as she got older (so much so that she was wheelchair-bound by the time of the incident that you mentioned).  Again, I'm not a scholar, but I believe that he (VW) refused to leave her and was her caregiver.  So, yes, a strange arrangement.  Perhaps she gave them her blessing?  I don't know.  But to me, calling it a M à T (particularly without saying anything further) sounded to me at the time like the kind of thing that one would read in a gossip magazine (I think that it's the Guardian that has a current story about it which comes across that way?).  Sorry, I think that using the term "salacious" was a bad choice at my end.

As far as what I had said about men, this is from my personal experience being on classical music forums over the years.  I've never read any comments by women who have said things on threads about composers or performers or when their name(s) were mentioned (often after someone spoke about admiring their artistic skills) someone will blurt out something nasty about that composer or performer's personal life (true or rumored).  I don't know why some guys like to do this.  And how many women regularly contribute here?  I can think of three (including myself).  It's frustrating at my end and makes me feel sad--and often disgusted.  And no, I'm not trying to say that you were trying to make me feel that way as I think that you (from the little I know of you) are a nice person.  I just needed to get that off of my chest.

Hoping that I've made my thoughts clearer to you Jeffrey?  I'm just here to enjoy the music.

Best,

PD
Hello PD,
Thank you for your message. Interesting about 'The Woman in Black' - VW's relationship with Adeline seems complex but he appears very devoted to her for over 50 years. I think that you may be right about mental illness.
I note your other views and thank you for clarifying them. Maybe 'menage a trois' was a bad phrase on my part but it is how a musician once described the situation to me.
I'll now go back to observing the current spectacular collapse of the British Government!
All best
Jeffrey
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on October 19, 2022, 05:10:28 PM
I for one did not know anything about the personal life story and come away from it with increased respect for the composer (all three people, in fact) as they all seem to have behaved with great compassion and decency to one another, and to have made each other's lives better. As we know, that can be all too rare.

Anyway. Thanks all.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 20, 2022, 12:04:12 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 19, 2022, 02:56:27 AM
Jeffrey,

Regarding wearing black:  From what I understood, Adeline was so distraught about her brother's death during WWI, that she wore black for the rest of her life which suggests to me that there were quite possibly mental health issues at her end (mentioned elsewhere too) and she apparently struggled with severe arthritis which became increasingly worse as she got older (so much so that she was wheelchair-bound by the time of the incident that you mentioned).  Again, I'm not a scholar, but I believe that he (VW) refused to leave her and was her caregiver.  So, yes, a strange arrangement.  Perhaps she gave them her blessing?  I don't know.  But to me, calling it a M à T (particularly without saying anything further) sounded to me at the time like the kind of thing that one would read in a gossip magazine (I think that it's the Guardian that has a current story about it which comes across that way?).  Sorry, I think that using the term "salacious" was a bad choice at my end.

As far as what I had said about men, this is from my personal experience being on classical music forums over the years.  I've never read any comments by women who have said things on threads about composers or performers or when their name(s) were mentioned (often after someone spoke about admiring their artistic skills) someone will blurt out something nasty about that composer or performer's personal life (true or rumored).  I don't know why some guys like to do this.  And how many women regularly contribute here?  I can think of three (including myself).  It's frustrating at my end and makes me feel sad--and often disgusted.  And no, I'm not trying to say that you were trying to make me feel that way as I think that you (from the little I know of you) are a nice person.  I just needed to get that off of my chest.

Hoping that I've made my thoughts clearer to you Jeffrey?  I'm just here to enjoy the music.

Best,

PD

Excellent post, PD. RVW remained committed to the well-being to his first wife and although a big age difference his second marriage was a loving one.
Many composers have a dark side. It is a valid point that without it they would not have been as good as they were.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2022, 02:10:49 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 19, 2022, 05:10:28 PM
I for one did not know anything about the personal life story and come away from it with increased respect for the composer (all three people, in fact) as they all seem to have behaved with great compassion and decency to one another, and to have made each other's lives better. As we know, that can be all too rare.

Anyway. Thanks all.  :)
I think that's very true Brian. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2022, 02:11:47 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 20, 2022, 12:04:12 AM
Excellent post, PD. RVW remained committed to the well-being to his first wife and although a big age difference his second marriage was a loving one.
Many composers have a dark side. It is a valid point that without it they would not have been as good as they were.
I think that we all have a dark side! (known as 'The Shadow' AFAIK in Jungian psychology)  >:D :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 20, 2022, 02:18:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 20, 2022, 02:11:47 AM
I think that we all have a dark side! (known as 'The Shadow' AFAIK in Jungian psychology)  >:D :)

Not me, Jeffrey. 100% sweetness and light. ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2022, 02:23:27 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 20, 2022, 02:18:37 AM
Not me, Jeffrey. 100% sweetness and light. ;)
Yes, absolutely right Lol - I realised that long ago  0:)  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 20, 2022, 03:21:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 20, 2022, 02:11:47 AM
I think that we all have a dark side! (known as 'The Shadow' AFAIK in Jungian psychology)  >:D :)
"Only The Shadow Knows"

(http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/data/media/134/THE_SHADOW_2.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow

   ;) PD

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 20, 2022, 03:50:39 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 20, 2022, 12:04:12 AM
Excellent post, PD. RVW remained committed to the well-being to his first wife and although a big age difference his second marriage was a loving one.
Many composers have a dark side. It is a valid point that without it they would not have been as good as they were.

My general observations is that intimate relationships, marriages or other long term intimate partnerships, are often very complicated, don't conform to what is "normal" and are driven by circumstances that are not known to people outside the relationship. Speculating and/or passing judgement on such relationships based on the public face of the relationship is of dubious accuracy and value, in my view. As long as there is no indication of abuse, I find myself uninterested, in principal. This particularly applies when the participants are no longer living.

For composers, I am particularly uninterested. I've only gone beyond CD linear notes twice. I started reading Thayer's "Life of Beethoven," and found interesting information about Beethoven's early life, in which he was a prodigy who served as a church organist at an early age (if I recall correctly) but eventually got bored by all of the tedious detail of Beethoven's activities. The other time was Swafford's biography of Brahms, but discontinued reading before getting too far because I didn't see that reading about his neuroses was helping me appreciate the music.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2022, 04:24:26 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 20, 2022, 03:21:56 AM
"Only The Shadow Knows"

(http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/data/media/134/THE_SHADOW_2.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow

   ;) PD
;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2022, 04:29:43 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 20, 2022, 03:50:39 AM
My general observations is that intimate relationships, marriages or other long term intimate partnerships, are often very complicated, don't conform to what is "normal" and are driven by circumstances that are not known to people outside the relationship. Speculating and/or passing judgement on such relationships based on the public face of the relationship is of dubious accuracy and value, in my view. As long as there is no indication of abuse, I find myself uninterested, in principal. This particularly applies when the participants are no longer living.

For composers, I am particularly uninterested. I've only gone beyond CD linear notes twice. I started reading Thayer's "Life of Beethoven," and found interesting information about Beethoven's early life, in which he was a prodigy who served as a church organist at an early age (if I recall correctly) but eventually got bored by all of the tedious detail of Beethoven's activities. The other time was Swafford's biography of Brahms, but discontinued reading before getting too far because I didn't see that reading about his neuroses was helping me appreciate the music.
Totally agree with the first sentence.  'The 'normal man is a very dark horse indeed' (Emmanuel Miller, Psychiatrist - Father of the play-write Jonathan Miller)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 20, 2022, 06:53:36 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 20, 2022, 03:50:39 AM
My general observations is that intimate relationships, marriages or other long term intimate partnerships, are often very complicated, don't conform to what is "normal" and are driven by circumstances that are not known to people outside the relationship. Speculating and/or passing judgement on such relationships based on the public face of the relationship is of dubious accuracy and value, in my view. As long as there is no indication of abuse, I find myself uninterested, in principal. This particularly applies when the participants are no longer living.

For composers, I am particularly uninterested. I've only gone beyond CD linear notes twice. I started reading Thayer's "Life of Beethoven," and found interesting information about Beethoven's early life, in which he was a prodigy who served as a church organist at an early age (if I recall correctly) but eventually got bored by all of the tedious detail of Beethoven's activities. The other time was Swafford's biography of Brahms, but discontinued reading before getting too far because I didn't see that reading about his neuroses was helping me appreciate the music.

Not being a musical person per se I find lives of composers of great interest and assists in the  appreciation their music. George Butterworth is a hero of mine. He fought and died for his country, an immensely brave and modest man who I admire. When I listen to his music it is far more then the notes themselves.
Flipside to that is Peter Warlock. He dabbled in the occult, drank like a fish and instead of killed by a sniper's bullet in the case of Butterworth, but by his own hand. Two, for different reasons, short and unfilled lives, the former 31 years and latter 36. Without being aware of the backstory of each I think my appreciation of their music would be less. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 20, 2022, 08:40:55 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 20, 2022, 06:53:36 AM
Not being a musical person per se I find lives of composers of great interest and assists in the  appreciation their music. George Butterworth is a hero of mine. He fought and died for his country, an immensely brave and modest man who I admire. When I listen to his music it is far more then the notes themselves.
Flipside to that is Peter Warlock. He dabbled in the occult, drank like a fish and instead of killed by a sniper's bullet in the case of Butterworth, but by his own hand. Two, for different reasons, short and unfilled lives, the former 31 years and latter 36. Without being aware of the backstory of each I think my appreciation of their music would be less.

I'm with you on this but of course every composer is unique and so what impacted them as people and artists are different.  I might have a sense of what makes a particular composer tick and trying to reconcile that with how I perceive their music is part of the fascination for me - certainly I enjoy music a lot more when I think I understand the "why" behind it.  Or as you say with Warlock the extraordinary disconnect between the man and his life as we understand it to be and the music he produced is intriguing.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2022, 10:28:08 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 20, 2022, 06:53:36 AM
Not being a musical person per se I find lives of composers of great interest and assists in the  appreciation their music. George Butterworth is a hero of mine. He fought and died for his country, an immensely brave and modest man who I admire. When I listen to his music it is far more then the notes themselves.
Flipside to that is Peter Warlock. He dabbled in the occult, drank like a fish and instead of killed by a sniper's bullet in the case of Butterworth, but by his own hand. Two, for different reasons, short and unfilled lives, the former 31 years and latter 36. Without being aware of the backstory of each I think my appreciation of their music would be less.
+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 20, 2022, 05:33:41 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 19, 2022, 05:10:28 PM
I for one did not know anything about the personal life story and come away from it with increased respect for the composer (all three people, in fact) as they all seem to have behaved with great compassion and decency to one another, and to have made each other's lives better. As we know, that can be all too rare.

Anyway. Thanks all.  :)

With the modification that I have as much biographical info as the DVD O Thou Transcendent provides, + 1.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 20, 2022, 05:37:24 PM
Quote from: Irons on October 20, 2022, 12:04:12 AM
Excellent post, PD. RVW remained committed to the well-being to his first wife and although a big age difference his second marriage was a loving one.
Many composers have a dark side. It is a valid point that without it they would not have been as good as they were.

I'd say, without it they would not have been quite as they were. Whether the quality of their composition would suffer from that loss, is nearly-pure speculation.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 20, 2022, 05:39:50 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 20, 2022, 03:50:39 AM
My general observations is that intimate relationships, marriages or other long term intimate partnerships, are often very complicated, don't conform to what is "normal" and are driven by circumstances that are not known to people outside the relationship. Speculating and/or passing judgement on such relationships based on the public face of the relationship is of dubious accuracy and value, in my view. As long as there is no indication of abuse, I find myself uninterested, in principal. This particularly applies when the participants are no longer living.

For composers, I am particularly uninterested. I've only gone beyond CD linear notes twice. I started reading Thayer's "Life of Beethoven," and found interesting information about Beethoven's early life, in which he was a prodigy who served as a church organist at an early age (if I recall correctly) but eventually got bored by all of the tedious detail of Beethoven's activities. The other time was Swafford's biography of Brahms, but discontinued reading before getting too far because I didn't see that reading about his neuroses was helping me appreciate the music.

I have not even brought myself to read Swafford's book, for reasons you raise.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 21, 2022, 12:31:24 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 20, 2022, 08:40:55 AM
I'm with you on this but of course every composer is unique and so what impacted them as people and artists are different.  I might have a sense of what makes a particular composer tick and trying to reconcile that with how I perceive their music is part of the fascination for me - certainly I enjoy music a lot more when I think I understand the "why" behind it.  Or as you say with Warlock the extraordinary disconnect between the man and his life as we understand it to be and the music he produced is intriguing.

Agreed. Also, the unanswerable question what would composers dying tragically young have produced if reaching old age. I am sure I read somewhere that as young men RVW considered Butterworth his equal.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on October 21, 2022, 12:39:24 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 20, 2022, 05:37:24 PM
I'd say, without it they would not have been quite as they were. Whether the quality of their composition would suffer from that loss, is nearly-pure speculation.

You are far better qualified then I am to answer that.   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 02:27:24 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 21, 2022, 12:31:24 AM
Agreed. Also, the unanswerable question what would composers dying tragically young have produced if reaching old age. I am sure I read somewhere that as young men RVW considered Butterworth his equal.
I think that Butterworth was a more natural melodist than VW but who knows how his sadly short-lived career would have developed.
Am currently enjoying this new release:
(//)
I was amused by one review which described the 1944 narration on 'Thanksgiving for Victory' as like 'old-testament-prophet-reads-the-News'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 02:53:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 02:27:24 AM
I think that Butterworth was a more natural melodist than VW but who knows how his sadly short-lived career would have developed.
Am currently enjoying this new release:
(//)
I was amused by one review which described the 1944 narration on 'Thanksgiving for Victory' as like 'old-testament-prophet-reads-the-News'.
:laugh:  :)  Did it strike you that way too Jeffrey?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 03:30:23 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 02:53:39 AM
:laugh:  :)  Did it strike you that way too Jeffrey?

PD
Well PD - those old BBC war-time announcers all sound very similar. I'm currently greatly enjoying Boult conducting the Boston SO in 'Job' - a great performance reminding me of Koussevitsky's equally impressive recording of the 5th Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 31, 2022, 03:43:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 03:30:23 AM
Well PD - those old BBC war-time announcers all sound very similar. I'm currently greatly enjoying Boult conducting the Boston SO in 'Job' - a great performance reminding me of Koussevitsky's equally impressive recording of the 5th Symphony.

The Vol.3 of this SOMM series is in the works I see -

(https://d9cahy9arw81t.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2022/10/17230940/Ariadne-5019-cover_web-600x600.jpg)

in the light of how good the earlier volumes have been I'm looking forward to hearing this.... not rare recordings as such but I suspect they will benefit from Lani Spahr's remastering magic!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 31, 2022, 06:40:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 02:27:24 AM
I think that Butterworth was a more natural melodist than VW but who knows how his sadly short-lived career would have developed.
Am currently enjoying this new release:
(//)
I was amused by one review which described the 1944 narration on 'Thanksgiving for Victory' as like 'old-testament-prophet-reads-the-News'.

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 31, 2022, 08:01:39 AM
A heads-up to anyone else who happens to be in the Chicago area next week. CSO is performing the 5th Symphony on November 3-5:

Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Edward Gardner, conductor
Christian Tetzlaff, violinist
Wagner: Prelude to Act 3 of Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Bartók: Violin Concerto No. 2
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5

I probably won't be able to go to this (and I heard the 5th at Grant Park a few years ago anyway), but it's good to see.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 08:10:24 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 31, 2022, 03:43:29 AM
The Vol.3 of this SOMM series is in the works I see -

(https://d9cahy9arw81t.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2022/10/17230940/Ariadne-5019-cover_web-600x600.jpg)

in the light of how good the earlier volumes have been I'm looking forward to hearing this.... not rare recordings as such but I suspect they will benefit from Lani Spahr's remastering magic!
Gosh - that's very exciting. I had no idea that there would be a third volume. I'm familiar with most of those recordings but I've never come across VW conducting A London Symphony before. And VW with Foxy as well! Unmissable.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 08:56:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 08:10:24 AM
Gosh - that's very exciting. I had no idea that there would be a third volume. I'm familiar with most of those recordings but I've never come across VW conducting A London Symphony before. And VW with Foxy as well! Unmissable.
Yes, and a free cat with every CD sold!  :) ;)

The earliest recordings that I own are of No. 4 from 1937 and conducted by VW and No. 5 with Barbirolli from 1934.  Also this one (No. 5):  Promenade Concert: 11 September 1950; Royal Albert Hall, London It's an unpublished transcript of acetate disc from BBC archives - monophonic.  Earliest known recording of VW conducting this symphony.  Note:  The friend who gave it to me was there at this performance.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Wanderer on October 31, 2022, 09:21:28 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 08:56:11 AM
Yes, and a free cat with every CD sold!  :) ;)

I'll take two! 😎
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 31, 2022, 09:25:39 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 08:56:11 AM
Yes, and a free cat with every CD sold!  :) ;)

The earliest recordings that I own are of No. 4 from 1937 and conducted by VW and No. 5 with Barbirolli from 1934.  Also this one (No. 5):  Promenade Concert: 11 September 1950; Royal Albert Hall, London It's an unpublished transcript of acetate disc from BBC archives - monophonic.  Earliest known recording of VW conducting this symphony.  Note:  The friend who gave it to me was there at this performance.

PD

No.5 was given the World Premiere on June 23rd 1943 - see CD cover above - Wood was indisposed so RVW conducted - so Barbirolli was doing well in 1934!  Which also means the 1950 performance under the composer is not the earliest......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on October 31, 2022, 10:05:30 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 31, 2022, 08:01:39 AM
A heads-up to anyone else who happens to be in the Chicago area next week. CSO is performing the 5th Symphony on November 3-5:

Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Edward Gardner, conductor
Christian Tetzlaff, violinist
Wagner: Prelude to Act 3 of Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Bartók: Violin Concerto No. 2
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5

I probably won't be able to go to this (and I heard the 5th at Grant Park a few years ago anyway), but it's good to see.

Nice!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 10:15:57 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on October 31, 2022, 09:21:28 AM
I'll take two! 😎
My kind of person!

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 08:56:11 AM
Yes, and a free cat with every CD sold!  :) ;)

The earliest recordings that I own are of No. 4 from 1937 and conducted by VW and No. 5 with Barbirolli from 1934.  Also this one (No. 5):  Promenade Concert: 11 September 1950; Royal Albert Hall, London It's an unpublished transcript of acetate disc from BBC archives - monophonic.  Earliest known recording of VW conducting this symphony.  Note:  The friend who gave it to me was there at this performance.

PD

Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 31, 2022, 09:25:39 AM
No.5 was given the World Premiere on June 23rd 1943 - see CD cover above - Wood was indisposed so RVW conducted - so Barbirolli was doing well in 1934!  Which also means the 1950 performance under the composer is not the earliest......
Looks like I was typing too quickly (also woke up too early this morning!):  The No. 5 with Barbirolli was recorded in 1944 (I think that I saw the 1943 after the title, transposed the numbers 3 & 4...but it should have been '44 to begin with.  ::)  ).  And looks like my friend's information was perhaps out of date?  I copied off the info that he had given me, so confused there.  And, yes, I've just now taken a better look at that cover.

Anyway, thanks for the correct info!  :)

PD

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 12:52:21 PM
What's your (anyone's) favourite recording of Dona Nobis Pacem?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 11:43:32 PM
The one with Vaughan Williams himself conducting is quite special (on Somm).  :) Don't know off the top of my head when that was recorded.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 11:54:46 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 11:43:32 PM
The one with Vaughan Williams himself conducting is quite special (on Somm).  :) Don't know off the top of my head when that was recorded.

PD

Thanks PD. That's the one being reissued (in a new remastering) by Somm soon. I shall look forward to receiving it. I think that DNP has been well-served on disc and don't know of a 'bad' recording. A recent one that I enjoyed was Andrew Litton with the Colorado SO (Hyperion). There are some good American performances (Abravanel/Utah SO for example, which I think was the premiere recording) which give a different perspective on the Walt Whitman poetry.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 01, 2022, 01:20:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 11:54:46 PM
Thanks PD. That's the one being reissued (in a new remastering) by Somm soon. I shall look forward to receiving it. I think that DNP has been well-served on disc and don't know of a 'bad' recording. A recent one that I enjoyed was Andrew Litton with the Colorado SO (Hyperion). There are some good American performances (Abravanel/Utah SO for example, which I think was the premiere recording) which give a different perspective on the Walt Whitman poetry.
Morning Jeffrey!

So, have they said/written much about what they've done to it which will have made it so much better vs. the first time around?

The only other one that I have (off of the top of my head) is Bryden Thompson's one.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 01, 2022, 01:57:42 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 01, 2022, 01:20:49 AM
Morning Jeffrey!

So, have they said/written much about what they've done to it which will have made it so much better vs. the first time around?

The only other one that I have (off of the top of my head) is Bryden Thompson's one.

PD
Hi PD,
Just 'new remastering' whatever that means. Yes, I agree that Thomson's is one of the best.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on November 01, 2022, 04:47:24 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 31, 2022, 03:43:29 AM
The Vol.3 of this SOMM series is in the works I see -

(https://d9cahy9arw81t.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2022/10/17230940/Ariadne-5019-cover_web-600x600.jpg)

in the light of how good the earlier volumes have been I'm looking forward to hearing this.... not rare recordings as such but I suspect they will benefit from Lani Spahr's remastering magic!

Very frustrating! I have all the contents except for the London Symphony which I would love to hear; perhaps the remsterings will make it worthwhile.

My favourite Dona nobis pacem is Boult/LPO (1974), imprinted on my brain after decades of listening. Spano/Atlanta SO is an excellent modern recording. The composer is incomparable!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: VonStupp on November 01, 2022, 05:09:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 12:52:21 PM
What's your (anyone's) favourite recording of Dona Nobis Pacem?

I most recently heard Hickox's on EMI (paired with Sancta Civitas). Surprisingly, it really tugged at my heartstrings on last listen, even though his pace is quite measured from others I know. I think the soloists worked for me in particular.

On the flip side, one of the first recordings I heard of the work was Robert Shaw on Telarc, but I find it one of the more under-cooked recordings of that work.

VS
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 01, 2022, 05:38:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 31, 2022, 12:52:21 PM
What's your (anyone's) favourite recording of Dona Nobis Pacem?

Mine is Hickox but I'm intrigued by the Boult/74 so will try to find that.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 02, 2022, 11:35:01 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 01, 2022, 05:38:33 AM
Mine is Hickox but I'm intrigued by the Boult/74 so will try to find that.

Thanks for the DNP recommendations, everyone.
The Boult is excellent, but I remember a pressing fault on the LP which put me off it. You cannot go wrong with Boult.
Boult's DNP is available on this excellent double CD set:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 02, 2022, 01:13:20 PM
I have never listened to RWV's Dona Nobis Pacem, but I'm very curious about this composition; unfortunately I haven't got a recording, but on youtube, I've found the Boult/London Philharmonic performance (I suppose it's the same recording Jeffrey posted above) with a good sound quality, so I'm looking forward to having a listen to it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 02, 2022, 03:00:06 PM
Quote from: VonStupp on November 01, 2022, 05:09:23 AM
I most recently heard Hickox's on EMI (paired with Sancta Civitas). Surprisingly, it really tugged at my heartstrings on last listen, even though his pace is quite measured from others I know. I think the soloists worked for me in particular.

On the flip side, one of the first recordings I heard of the work was Robert Shaw on Telarc, but I find it one of the more under-cooked recordings of that work.

VS

Hickox's Dona Nobis is very fine and I agree having a young firm-voiced Bryn Terfel is a big plus.  The coupling is excellent, logical and surprisingly rare (as a coupling).  Actually I don't think there is a "bad" version and it is most certainly a "great" work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 03, 2022, 02:48:59 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 02, 2022, 01:13:20 PM
I have never listened to RWV's Dona Nobis Pacem, but I'm very curious about this composition; unfortunately I haven't got a recording, but on youtube, I've found the Boult/London Philharmonic performance (I suppose it's the same recording Jeffrey posted above) with a good sound quality, so I'm looking forward to having a listen to it.
It's excellent - hope you enjoy it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 03, 2022, 02:50:46 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 02, 2022, 03:00:06 PM
Hickox's Dona Nobis is very fine and I agree having a young firm-voiced Bryn Terfel is a big plus.  The coupling is excellent, logical and surprisingly rare (as a coupling).  Actually I don't think there is a "bad" version and it is most certainly a "great" work.
Yes, I'm also surprised that DNP and Sancta Civitas have not been coupled together more often (just on EMI and Naxos AFAIK).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: VonStupp on November 03, 2022, 09:02:08 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 02, 2022, 03:00:06 PM
Hickox's Dona Nobis is very fine and I agree having a young firm-voiced Bryn Terfel is a big plus.  The coupling is excellent, logical and surprisingly rare (as a coupling).  Actually I don't think there is a "bad" version and it is most certainly a "great" work.

Great would be good descriptor. I might even go so far to use masterpiece, but I like most of VW's Walt Whitman settings.

I think around the same time as Hickox's EMI recording, Coleridge-Taylor's Hiawatha Trilogy was greatly elevated by Terfel's presence. I also have a personal love of Yvonne Kenny's soprano on record.

VS
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 03, 2022, 01:00:22 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 03, 2022, 02:48:59 AM
It's excellent - hope you enjoy it.

Thank you, I did it immensely as a matter of fact, what a powerfully thrilling, impressive cantata, really overwhelming and touching at some points; a beautiful use of the voices too! I really liked the splendid, colourful orchestration of the composition as well as the immersive atmosphere depicted; it was varied, contrasting in moods, solemn, melancholic and gloomy in several passages, but also violent and pleading with sufference; nonetheless without losing hope in its glorious finale before ending in tranquillity in pianissimo. Boult's recording was absolutely magnificent, very brilliant, he really knew how to bring out the intensity and the suggestion from RWV's music! I'm certainly going to buy it if I can find it at a good price. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 03, 2022, 05:31:00 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 03, 2022, 01:00:22 PM
Thank you, I did it immensely as a matter of fact, what a powerfully thrilling, impressive cantata, really overwhelming and touching at some points; a beautiful use of the voices too! I really liked the splendid, colourful orchestration of the composition as well as the immersive atmosphere depicted; it was varied, contrasting in moods, solemn, melancholic and gloomy in several passages, but also violent and pleading with sufference; nonetheless without losing hope in its glorious finale before ending in tranquillity in pianissimo. Boult's recording was absolutely magnificent, very brilliant, he really knew how to bring out the intensity and the suggestion from RWV's music! I'm certainly going to buy it if I can find it at a good price. :)
Great review! It can be found on the double CD release I listed above + the Boult VW box and the original CD (and LP release). I very much agree with your positive view of the work. Although it was composed over a long period of time, I think that it hangs together very well. I have been lucky enough to hear it live on two or three occasions. Last time, a few years ago, I took my daughter to hear it at the Proms. She enjoyed it but said that the affirmative ending went a bit too 'It's A Wonderful Life' for her taste - but she is a cynic!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 04, 2022, 12:20:24 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 03, 2022, 05:31:00 PM
Great review! It can be found on the double CD release I listed above + the Boult VW box and the original CD (and LP release). I very much agree with your positive view of the work. Although it was composed over a long period of time, I think that it hangs together very well. I have been lucky enough to hear it live on two or three occasions. Last time, a few years ago, I took my daughter to hear it at the Proms. She enjoyed it but said that the affirmative ending went a bit too 'It's A Wonderful Life' for her taste - but she is a cynic!

As to the "affirmative ending"; this got me thinking - how many Choral works end very glummly??  Requiems end up "In Paradisium", can't think of any religious/choral works that don't end with some kind of positive chorus or at least "peaceful".  Can anyone come up with a few totally nihilistic choral works - Herrmann's "Moby Dick"?  Delius' "Sea Drift" is sad rather than anything else.....  There must be - I just can't think of them at this time in the morning!

Edit;  even DSCH 13/Babi Yar is at best emotionally ambiguous (I'm using "best" in the sense of most closely correlating to my bleak-ending idea!)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 04, 2022, 01:13:05 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 04, 2022, 12:20:24 AM
As to the "affirmative ending"; this got me thinking - how many Choral works end very glummly??  Requiems end up "In Paradisium", can't think of any religious/choral works that don't end with some kind of positive chorus or at least "peaceful".  Can anyone come up with a few totally nihilistic choral works - Herrmann's "Moby Dick"?  Delius' "Sea Drift" is sad rather than anything else.....  There must be - I just can't think of them at this time in the morning!
Interesting point RS. I need to think about it although I can't imagine that Allan Pettersson's choral/vocal Symphony No.12 'The Dead in the Marketplace' is a bundle of laughs at the end.  8)

PS Having said that I just listened to the ending on You Tube and it does seem quite affirmative, making me want to hear the whole symphony properly.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on November 04, 2022, 05:17:30 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 04, 2022, 12:20:24 AM
As to the "affirmative ending"; this got me thinking - how many Choral works end very glummly??  Requiems end up "In Paradisium", can't think of any religious/choral works that don't end with some kind of positive chorus or at least "peaceful".  Can anyone come up with a few totally nihilistic choral works - Herrmann's "Moby Dick"?  Delius' "Sea Drift" is sad rather than anything else.....  There must be - I just can't think of them at this time in the morning!

Edit;  even DSCH 13/Babi Yar is at best emotionally ambiguous (I'm using "best" in the sense of most closely correlating to my bleak-ending idea!)

I can't think of any choral works which conclude darkly. I suppose l could compose one to fill the niche...  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 04, 2022, 05:49:07 AM
Schoenberg's A Survivor from Warsaw isn't a barrel of laughs.  How about RVW's own No. 7 or is that not choral enough to be considered choral?  Prokofiev's They Are Seven.  James MacMillan's St. John Passion.  Lots of Arvo Part's music I find very sad, but maybe that is more piety.  For example, his Berliner Messe, it's not a gloomy end, just sad.  Shostakovich's The Execution of Stepan Razin ends with blaring Soviet style orchestral ramblings.  Similar with Schnittke's Nagasaki oratorio.  Then there is Pendericki. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 04, 2022, 06:08:55 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 04, 2022, 05:49:07 AM
Schoenberg's A Survivor from Warsaw isn't a barrel of laughs.  How about RVW's own No. 7 or is that not choral enough to be considered choral?  Prokofiev's They Are Seven.  James MacMillan's St. John Passion.  Lots of Arvo Part's music I find very sad, but maybe that is more piety.  For example, his Berliner Messe, it's not a gloomy end, just sad.  Shostakovich's The Execution of Stepan Razin ends with blaring Soviet style orchestral ramblings.  Similar with Schnittke's Nagasaki oratorio.  Then there is Pendericki.

Survivor from Warsaw is a powerful ending and certainly not a bleak nihilistic abyss.  Rather exhibiting the extraordinary power of the human spirit I'd say.  RVW 7 doesn't count as a choral work - the choir are colouristic only.  I still think we are searching for the world's most miserable choral ending - if only to keep Vandermolen's daughter "happy" in a "sad" way  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 04, 2022, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 03, 2022, 05:31:00 PM
Great review! It can be found on the double CD release I listed above + the Boult VW box and the original CD (and LP release). I very much agree with your positive view of the work. Although it was composed over a long period of time, I think that it hangs together very well. I have been lucky enough to hear it live on two or three occasions. Last time, a few years ago, I took my daughter to hear it at the Proms. She enjoyed it but said that the affirmative ending went a bit too 'It's A Wonderful Life' for her taste - but she is a cynic!

Thanks! Wow, would she have preferred a darker, bleaker catastrophe as conclusion? It would have sounded a very strange plea for peace. :D
Anyway, I find very interesting that the composition doesn't end with the gorgeous, mighty climax built during the final movement, with the chorus at full power, but with the soprano soloist and the orchestra in pianissimo, in a quieter atmosphere; as though it wants to evoke an echo reminding that, despite anxieties and fears, a fleeble, but still alive hope is present.

Quote from: relm1 on November 04, 2022, 05:49:07 AM
Schoenberg's A Survivor from Warsaw isn't a barrel of laughs. 
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 04, 2022, 06:08:55 AM
Survivor from Warsaw is a powerful ending and certainly not a bleak nihilistic abyss.  Rather exhibiting the extraordinary power of the human spirit I'd say.  RVW 7 doesn't count as a choral work - the choir are colouristic only.  I still think we are searching for the world's most miserable choral ending - if only to keep Vandermolen's daughter "happy" in a "sad" way  8)

Agreed, it can show how people can fall into the obscure abyss of brutality, but in Schönberg's Survivor from Warsaw the frightful, tragic an haunting mood of work is somehow contrasted by the powerful final hymn, which is meant to be a corageous response and a strong affirmation of the human dignity against the blind cruelty of the war. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 04, 2022, 04:16:58 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 04, 2022, 01:06:35 PM
Thanks! Wow, would she have preferred a darker, bleaker catastrophe as conclusion? It would have sounded a very strange plea for peace. :D
Anyway, I find very interesting that the composition doesn't end with the gorgeous, mighty climax built during the final movement, with the chorus at full power, but with the soprano soloist and the orchestra in pianissimo, in a quieter atmosphere; as though it wants to evoke an echo reminding that, despite anxieties and fears, a fleeble, but still alive hope is present.

Agreed, it can show how people can fall into the obscure abyss of brutality, but in Schönberg's Survivor from Warsaw the frightful, tragic an haunting mood of work is somehow contrasted by the powerful final hymn, which is meant to be a corageous response and a strong affirmation of the human dignity against the blind cruelty of the war.

I think part of the challenge of this quest is there are other mediums better suited for bleak choral endings.  For example, opera, where you get blazingly bleek endings with choir but it's theatrical even when choral.  EG: Shostakovich Lady Macbeth which harkens to Mussorgsky operas.  And of course, Puccini choral tragic finales. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 05, 2022, 01:00:00 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 04, 2022, 06:08:55 AM
Survivor from Warsaw is a powerful ending and certainly not a bleak nihilistic abyss.  Rather exhibiting the extraordinary power of the human spirit I'd say.  RVW 7 doesn't count as a choral work - the choir are colouristic only.  I still think we are searching for the world's most miserable choral ending - if only to keep Vandermolen's daughter "happy" in a "sad" way  8)
Haha - I've enjoyed reading these posts and must tell my daughter about them!
Schoenberg's 'A Survivor from Warsaw' is an extraordinary piece. Shostakovich's Symphony No.13 is a most interesting choice - I find the ending, with the chimes, extraordinary moving, especially in Haitink's recording:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on November 05, 2022, 02:51:28 AM
An upbeat / optimistic / aspirational ending is pretty much the default position in all classical music (not just choral).  It was baked-in to the 18thC aesthetic and has stuck in the music ever since.  Also it helps in performance, to give the audience something to cheer.  So that the exceptions - such as Tchaikovsky's and RVW's 6th Symphonies, DSCH's 15th - are very notable for that reason.  Although many more could be cited, still across the whole wide gamut of 'classical' music downbeat endings are rare.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: VonStupp on November 06, 2022, 08:40:21 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 04, 2022, 12:20:24 AM
As to the "affirmative ending"; this got me thinking - how many Choral works end very glummly??  Requiems end up "In Paradisium", can't think of any religious/choral works that don't end with some kind of positive chorus or at least "peaceful".  Can anyone come up with a few totally nihilistic choral works - Herrmann's "Moby Dick"?  Delius' "Sea Drift" is sad rather than anything else.....  There must be - I just can't think of them at this time in the morning!

Edit;  even DSCH 13/Babi Yar is at best emotionally ambiguous (I'm using "best" in the sense of most closely correlating to my bleak-ending idea!)

I always thought Martinů's Epic of Gilgamesh and Orff's Trionfo di Afrodite had rather unsettled endings, at least musically. I don't have texts to these anymore, but knowing of the sensual subjects in Orff's cantatas, perhaps it ends more ecstatically.

VS
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 06, 2022, 11:37:08 AM
Separately, last night I heard the Master Singers of Lexington sing the Three Elizabethan part-songs to open their program (their first since the advent of the plague.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 06, 2022, 01:52:32 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 06, 2022, 11:37:08 AM
Separately, last night I heard the Master Singers of Lexington sing the Three Elizabethan part-songs to open their program (their first since the advent of the plague.)
Very nice!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 06, 2022, 03:57:48 PM
Tonight, I listened to RVW's DNP by Bryden Thomson/LPO.  Fantastic performance but for me, it doesn't displace Hickox as my favorite interpretation.  Very much nitpicks about phrasing and slight balance issues but to me, each time, Hickox excelled.  BUT this performance of Five Mystical Songs is so freaking gorgeous.  I don't think I've heard it better.  Brian Rayner Cook (baritone) is fantastic in this!  It is so full of atmosphere and so beautifully performed.  I felt immediately transported. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 06, 2022, 11:53:31 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 06, 2022, 03:57:48 PM
Tonight, I listened to RVW's DNP by Bryden Thomson/LPO.  Fantastic performance but for me, it doesn't displace Hickox as my favorite interpretation.  Very much nitpicks about phrasing and slight balance issues but to me, each time, Hickox excelled.  BUT this performance of Five Mystical Songs is so freaking gorgeous.  I don't think I've heard it better.  Brian Rayner Cook (baritone) is fantastic in this!  It is so full of atmosphere and so beautifully performed.  I felt immediately transported.
Interesting - I fished out the Thomson CD yesterday and hope to play it today. I think that I have every recording of DNP and don't think that there is a weak one amongst them. In fact, I think that Dona Nobis Pacem has been well served on disc. I'm looking forward to receiving the remastered/remastered version on Somm, reissued for the 150th Anniversary. I first got to know the work through Abravanel's Utah recording which I retain affection for (there's a great Vanguard CD featuring it coupled with Abravanel's excellent recording of the 6th Symphony - a unique coupling of two of VW's finest works). I remember being very delighted when the Boult LP appeared and that is a favourite version as well. More recently I have really enjoyed Litton's Colorado SO version on Hyperion.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 08, 2022, 04:47:40 AM
I've been having a quick dipping in/first listen to parts of the new "RVW Live Vol.3" set from Somm;

(https://d9cahy9arw81t.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2022/10/17230940/Ariadne-5019-cover_web-600x600.jpg)

A couple of things for those considering this set to know;  The London Symphony from the Proms in July 1946 is a blazing performance full of extraordinary drive, power and atmosphere.  NOT AT ALL the kind of misty-Monet-down the Thames the piece can sometimes seem.  BUT because it was privately recorded off-air by Kenneth Leech there are missing passages while Leech was having to change over recordable discs.  So there are 2 "gaps" in both the 1st and 2nd movements, the end of the scherzo is missing and there is one big gap around 1' 20" in the finale.  The shortest gap is just 10" in the slow movement so not sure what the problem was in the finale.  For me because this is literally a unique/historical document and the performance is so impressive I can live with this as a fascinating reference version.  The same 'gaps' occur for the same reason in the 1943 premiere performance of Symphony No.5.  Disc 2 of this set is a new mastering of the same performances Somm have previously released although apparently the source recording of No.5 is different so it does NOT omit some bars missing in the earlier Somm version.  Undoubtedly important and valuable in providing insights into RVW's vision of his own music but ultimately quite a 'specialist' release I would think.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 08, 2022, 11:12:20 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 08, 2022, 04:47:40 AM
I've been having a quick dipping in/first listen to parts of the new "RVW Live Vol.3" set from Somm;

(https://d9cahy9arw81t.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2022/10/17230940/Ariadne-5019-cover_web-600x600.jpg)

A couple of things for those considering this set to know;  The London Symphony from the Proms in July 1946 is a blazing performance full of extraordinary drive, power and atmosphere.  NOT AT ALL the kind of misty-Monet-down the Thames the piece can sometimes seem.  BUT because it was privately recorded off-air by Kenneth Leech there are missing passages while Leech was having to change over recordable discs.  So there are 2 "gaps" in th both the 1st and 2nd movements, the end of the scherzo is missing and there is one big gap around 1' 20" in the finale.  The shortest gap is just 10" in the slow movement so not sure what the problem was in the finale.  For me because this is literally a unique/historical document and the performance is so impressive I can live with this as a fascinating reference version.  The same 'gaps' occur for the same reason in the 1943 premiere performance of Symphony No.5.  Disc 2 of this set is a new mastering of the same performances Somm have previously released although apparently the source recording of No.5 is different so it does NOT omit some bars missing in the earlier Somm version.  Undoubtedly important and valuable in providing insights into RVW's vision of his own music but ultimately quite a 'specialist' release I would think.

Most interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 08, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 08, 2022, 04:47:40 AM
I've been having a quick dipping in/first listen to parts of the new "RVW Live Vol.3" set from Somm;

(https://d9cahy9arw81t.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2022/10/17230940/Ariadne-5019-cover_web-600x600.jpg)

A couple of things for those considering this set to know;  The London Symphony from the Proms in July 1946 is a blazing performance full of extraordinary drive, power and atmosphere.  NOT AT ALL the kind of misty-Monet-down the Thames the piece can sometimes seem.  BUT because it was privately recorded off-air by Kenneth Leech there are missing passages while Leech was having to change over recordable discs.  So there are 2 "gaps" in th both the 1st and 2nd movements, the end of the scherzo is missing and there is one big gap around 1' 20" in the finale.  The shortest gap is just 10" in the slow movement so not sure what the problem was in the finale.  For me because this is literally a unique/historical document and the performance is so impressive I can live with this as a fascinating reference version.  The same 'gaps' occur for the same reason in the 1943 premiere performance of Symphony No.5.  Disc 2 of this set is a new mastering of the same performances Somm have previously released although apparently the source recording of No.5 is different so it does NOT omit some bars missing in the earlier Somm version.  Undoubtedly important and valuable in providing insights into RVW's vision of his own music but ultimately quite a 'specialist' release I would think.
That's very interesting to know, thanks, although it will not stop me ordering the release. Today I listened to Hickox's recording of the 1913 version of A London Symphony and had forgotten how much additional music is contained in the finale compared with the more familiar 1936 version. It is most extraordinary, and the work has a darker and more turbulent aspect to it. If I had to choose between the 1913 version and the one of 1936, despite the greater concision of the latter I would definitely opt for the earlier, more Mahlerian edition.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 09, 2022, 05:38:10 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 08, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
That's very interesting to know, thanks, although it will not stop me ordering the release. Today I listened to Hickox's recording of the 1913 version of A London Symphony and had forgotten how much additional music is contained in the finale compared with the more familiar 1936 version. It is most extraordinary, and the work has a darker and more turbulent aspect to it. If I had to choose between the 1913 version and the one of 1936, despite the greater concision of the latter I would definitely opt for the earlier, more Mahlerian edition.

Interestingly, RVW original 1913 version made it his longest symphony at 70 minutes.  Truly on a Mahlerian scale.  It is interesting how composers develop their material and struggle with structure and concision.  For example, how Sibelius seemed to really struggle structurally with his Violin Concerto and Symphony No. 5.  The original versions are very different and the final versions vastly improved, but the ideas themselves, not so different. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 09, 2022, 07:48:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 08, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
That's very interesting to know, thanks, although it will not stop me ordering the release. Today I listened to Hickox's recording of the 1913 version of A London Symphony and had forgotten how much additional music is contained in the finale compared with the more familiar 1936 version. It is most extraordinary, and the work has a darker and more turbulent aspect to it. If I had to choose between the 1913 version and the one of 1936, despite the greater concision of the latter I would definitely opt for the earlier, more Mahlerian edition.

I've spent quite a bit of time listening to the 1st disc in this set which contains the 1946 Proms London Symphony in the 1936 revision and the 1943 World Premiere of Symphony No.5.  Even allowing for the issues of pretty lo-fi recording and the missing passages while recording discs were changed both are stunning performances.  Given RVW's clear statement that the 1936 version of No.2 London was the only version to play it is very interesting to hear his take on the work.  Simply put he keeps all the tempi flowing - its an urgent very dramatic, very beautiful but completely unsentimental performance.  A case in point is the way he moves in the finale from the last great climax into the Epilogue.  Its really no-nonsense, no lingering looking at the view and it works wonderfully.  This is after all the passage where he cut most from the 1st version and here in this performance - for all the individual beauty of the cut music - you understand why he did it.  The greater concision ties the whole work together more effectively - to my ear the longer epilogue risks the formal balance of the movement and indeed the whole work.  I'm certainly very glad to be able to hear the longer versions but if anything this performances makes me think more than ever that the composer was right!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on November 09, 2022, 09:04:47 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 09, 2022, 07:48:00 AM
... - you understand why he did it.  The greater concision ties the whole work together more effectively - to my ear the longer epilogue risks the formal balance of the movement and indeed the whole work.  I'm certainly very glad to be able to hear the longer versions but if anything this performances makes me think more than ever that the composer was right!!

Choices made, by the composer or indeed by the interpreter/performer, in the final movement of a symphony, surely have no effect on the listening experience during the preceding movements?  It's a bit like Mahler's 4th - you may like, or dislike, the delivery of the sung final movement, but what difference does that make to the preceding 50 minutes?
(I think we probably listen to music in very different ways.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 09, 2022, 09:36:49 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 09, 2022, 09:04:47 AM
Choices made, by the composer or indeed by the interpreter/performer, in the final movement of a symphony, surely have no effect on the listening experience during the preceding movements?  It's a bit like Mahler's 4th - you may like, or dislike, the delivery of the sung final movement, but what difference does that make to the preceding 50 minutes?
(I think we probably listen to music in very different ways.)

Because an extended "leave-taking" from the final climax and then into the epilogue shifts the balance to the end of the work - making that epilogue - which after all in a literal sense is something that happens after/in addition to the main narrative - disproportionately significant.  Of course there is an argument to say composers can be more obsessed with the structural side of a work than your average listener who can experience a work moment to moment (especially when hearing for the first time).  For what its worth an average total timing of the revised London Symphony is around 45 minutes total of which the epilogue is already/still roughly 4:30 so quite a substantial proportion.  My sense from hearing this recording is that Vaughan Williams did not want it (or the music that transitions into it) to account for any more of the whole work that it does here.

To take your Mahler analogy - I don't think you can consider his 4th Symphony except in totality.  That was how he conceived it/intended it to be heard.  If you don't like the sung finale/find it anachronistic in the context of the whole work then I think the work has failed for you [as it happens I don't like that finale so its a work I rarely listen to].  But as you say we all listen in different ways.  I only listen to complete works whether that means 5 minutes or 5 hours.  The only cherry-picking I do do is with say orchestral excerpts of Wagner or perhaps opera overtures - but certainly with symphonies or concerti its all or nothing for me!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 10, 2022, 08:58:22 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 09, 2022, 05:38:10 AM
Interestingly, RVW original 1913 version made it his longest symphony at 70 minutes.  Truly on a Mahlerian scale.  It is interesting how composers develop their material and struggle with structure and concision.  For example, how Sibelius seemed to really struggle structurally with his Violin Concerto and Symphony No. 5.  The original versions are very different and the final versions vastly improved, but the ideas themselves, not so different.
As with the VW I tend now to play the original version of Sibelius's 5th Symphony rather than the more familiar final version. It has some wonderful moments which are missing from the final version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 10, 2022, 09:03:19 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 09, 2022, 07:48:00 AM
I've spent quite a bit of time listening to the 1st disc in this set which contains the 1946 Proms London Symphony in the 1936 revision and the 1943 World Premiere of Symphony No.5.  Even allowing for the issues of pretty lo-fi recording and the missing passages while recording discs were changed both are stunning performances.  Given RVW's clear statement that the 1936 version of No.2 London was the only version to play it is very interesting to hear his take on the work.  Simply put he keeps all the tempi flowing - its an urgent very dramatic, very beautiful but completely unsentimental performance.  A case in point is the way he moves in the finale from the last great climax into the Epilogue.  Its really no-nonsense, no lingering looking at the view and it works wonderfully.  This is after all the passage where he cut most from the 1st version and here in this performance - for all the individual beauty of the cut music - you understand why he did it.  The greater concision ties the whole work together more effectively - to my ear the longer epilogue risks the formal balance of the movement and indeed the whole work.  I'm certainly very glad to be able to hear the longer versions but if anything this performances makes me think more than ever that the composer was right!!
It is a shame that, unlike Elgar, we have so few recordings of VW conducting his own music. I'd love to hear what he made of Symphony No.6! There's an account of him conducting A London Symphony when the score, with his markings, went missing (it was eventually found in the piano). VW was apparently angry about the missing score but delivered a blistering performance from memory. I can't wait to hear the Somm release!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 10, 2022, 04:06:56 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 10, 2022, 08:58:22 AM
As with the VW I tend now to play the original version of Sibelius's 5th Symphony rather than the more familiar final version. It has some wonderful moments which are missing from the final version.

Fascinating.  I understand.  Maybe you are like me in that I love having Prokofiev's Symphony No. 4, op. 47 and Symphony No. 4, op. 112 as they are two very different wonderful symphonies both worth having even if I prefer the op. 112 if I had to pick one but am glad both exist as extant options.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 10, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 10, 2022, 04:06:56 PM
Fascinating.  I understand.  Maybe you are like me in that I love having Prokofiev's Symphony No. 4, op. 47 and Symphony No. 4, op. 112 as they are two very different wonderful symphonies both worth having even if I prefer the op. 112 if I had to pick one but am glad both exist as extant options.
I'm not so familiar with Prokofiev's 4th Symphony but have both versions. Will listen again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 17, 2022, 03:59:17 AM
Currently enjoying this recording of Dona Nobis Pacem.
I think that American orchestras/soloists/choirs/conductors bring something special to this music (Shaw, Spano and Abravanel come to mind) maybe it's something to do with the articulation of the Walt Whitman poetry. Certainly, Shaw's conclusion is one of the most inspiriting that I have ever heard - a marvellous performance.
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 17, 2022, 05:41:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 17, 2022, 03:59:17 AM
Currently enjoying this recording of Dona Nobis Pacem.
I think that American orchestras/soloists/choirs/conductors bring something special to this music (Shaw, Spano and Abravanel come to mind) maybe it's something to do with the articulation of the Walt Whitman poetry. Certainly, Shaw's conclusion is one of the most inspiriting that I have ever heard - a marvellous performance.
(//)

Will add to my list.  I think there is quite a bit of overlap for sure - first there are many anglophiles such as Bernard Herrmann and John Williams who are very much at home in that sound space and country.  Also, the author as you pointed out has the been the source for many other composers like Howard Hanson who similarly composed a Sea Symphony.  Something I think that is very interesting is how these composers remain distinctive - they aren't just doing that RVW thing, but you can hear the influence in ways.  Like in RVW's Symphony No. 6 (1944-7) epilogue with its very unsettled shifts between e minor and e flat major into the abyss, in Herrmann's Twilight Zone theme (1959) he similarly shifts between e minor and e flat minor into...The Zone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35OTm5pChkQ
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 17, 2022, 10:37:13 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 17, 2022, 05:41:33 AM
Will add to my list.  I think there is quite a bit of overlap for sure - first there are many anglophiles such as Bernard Herrmann and John Williams who are very much at home in that sound space and country.  Also, the author as you pointed out has the been the source for many other composers like Howard Hanson who similarly composed a Sea Symphony.  Something I think that is very interesting is how these composers remain distinctive - they aren't just doing that RVW thing, but you can hear the influence in ways.  Like in RVW's Symphony No. 6 (1944-7) epilogue with its very unsettled shifts between e minor and e flat major into the abyss, in Herrmann's Twilight Zone theme (1959) he similarly shifts between e minor and e flat minor into...The Zone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35OTm5pChkQ
I've heard the Twilight Zone theme before but enjoyed your analysis. Herrmann was a VWophile as well as an anglophile. I think that he recorded A London Symphony, but I have never heard of it anywhere. I like Hanson's Sea Symphony although, as you suggest, it is very unlike the VW work. Arthur Bliss also sets Whitman in his fine choral symphony 'Morning Heroes'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 17, 2022, 12:13:45 PM
December release:
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 17, 2022, 12:40:32 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 10, 2022, 04:06:56 PM
... I love having Prokofiev's Symphony No. 4, op. 47 and Symphony No. 4, op. 112 as they are two very different wonderful symphonies both worth having even if I prefer the op. 112 if I had to pick one but am glad both exist as extant options.

Yes.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 17, 2022, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 17, 2022, 12:40:32 PM
Yes.
+1
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 17, 2022, 03:47:15 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 17, 2022, 10:37:13 AM
I've heard the Twilight Zone theme before but enjoyed your analysis. Herrmann was a VWophile as well as an anglophile. I think that he recorded A London Symphony, but I have never heard of it anywhere. I like Hanson's Sea Symphony although, as you suggest, it is very unlike the VW work. Arthur Bliss also sets Whitman in his fine choral symphony 'Morning Heroes'.

Thanks mate.  Whitman is a very inspiring writer.  I wonder how many others he's inspired.  My own "Towers of Fables" that premiered last year in Italy was inspired by Whitman's Passage to India, a wonderful, multi-faceted poem.  Maybe I'll dig it up and post it in the composer thread because I can talk ad nauseum about why that is a great, great poem and works at multiple levels but would not be related to this thread.  It is easy to see why composers love him.  I think Elgar was also inspired by him but can't remember exactly what music.  Was it Wand of Youth?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 17, 2022, 11:13:33 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 17, 2022, 03:47:15 PM
Thanks mate.  Whitman is a very inspiring writer.  I wonder how many others he's inspired.  My own "Towers of Fables" that premiered last year in Italy was inspired by Whitman's Passage to India, a wonderful, multi-faceted poem.  Maybe I'll dig it up and post it in the composer thread because I can talk ad nauseum about why that is a great, great poem and works at multiple levels but would not be related to this thread.  It is easy to see why composers love him.  I think Elgar was also inspired by him but can't remember exactly what music.  Was it Wand of Youth?

Never heard of the Elgar/Whitman connection - Delius of course set Whitman in "Sea Drift".  Wand of Youth was just a pair of orchestral suites concocted in later life from early sketches.  You might be thinking of Starlight Express(?) but that was for a play based on a book by Algernon Blackwood.  I think it could be argued that Elgar was not as discerning in his choices of texts/poets to set as some/many other British composers.  The other one that I enjoy a lot are Tagore settings - some beautiful Frank Bridge and then Zemlinsky's Lyric Symphony which is glorious.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2022, 03:44:08 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 17, 2022, 03:47:15 PM
Thanks mate.  Whitman is a very inspiring writer.  I wonder how many others he's inspired.  My own "Towers of Fables" that premiered last year in Italy was inspired by Whitman's Passage to India, a wonderful, multi-faceted poem.  Maybe I'll dig it up and post it in the composer thread because I can talk ad nauseum about why that is a great, great poem and works at multiple levels but would not be related to this thread.  It is easy to see why composers love him.  I think Elgar was also inspired by him but can't remember exactly what music.  Was it Wand of Youth?
Not sure about Elgar but I like the sound of 'Towers of Fables'!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 18, 2022, 04:08:07 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 17, 2022, 03:47:15 PM
Thanks mate.  Whitman is a very inspiring writer.  I wonder how many others he's inspired.  My own "Towers of Fables" that premiered last year in Italy was inspired by Whitman's Passage to India, a wonderful, multi-faceted poem.  Maybe I'll dig it up and post it in the composer thread because I can talk ad nauseum about why that is a great, great poem and works at multiple levels but would not be related to this thread.  It is easy to see why composers love him.  I think Elgar was also inspired by him but can't remember exactly what music.  Was it Wand of Youth?

Holst too, in his Ode to Death he used a passage from Whitman's When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd; without forgetting his Walt Whitman Overture.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: pjme on November 18, 2022, 05:22:58 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 18, 2022, 04:08:07 AM
Holst too, in his Ode to Death he used a passage from Whitman's When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd; without forgetting his Walt Whitman Overture.

Afaik, Elgar never set poetry by Whitman to music.....


Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 18, 2022, 05:28:17 AM
I found some interesting info here (re settings of WW's poetry to music):  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Musical_settings_of_poems_by_Walt_Whitman

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 18, 2022, 05:41:10 AM
Quote from: pjme on November 18, 2022, 05:22:58 AM
Afaik, Elgar never set poetry by Whitman to music.....
Yes, I know, what I meant was that, besides RVW, Bliss and Delius who had been mentioned before, Holst set poetry by Whitman too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 18, 2022, 06:04:29 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 17, 2022, 11:13:33 PM
Never heard of the Elgar/Whitman connection - Delius of course set Whitman in "Sea Drift".  Wand of Youth was just a pair of orchestral suites concocted in later life from early sketches.  You might be thinking of Starlight Express(?) but that was for a play based on a book by Algernon Blackwood.  I think it could be argued that Elgar was not as discerning in his choices of texts/poets to set as some/many other British composers.  The other one that I enjoy a lot are Tagore settings - some beautiful Frank Bridge and then Zemlinsky's Lyric Symphony which is glorious.

Don't think I'm right about the Elgar...think it was the Delius I was thinking of!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on November 18, 2022, 04:12:40 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 17, 2022, 03:59:17 AM
Currently enjoying this recording of Dona Nobis Pacem.
I think that American orchestras/soloists/choirs/conductors bring something special to this music (Shaw, Spano and Abravanel come to mind) maybe it's something to do with the articulation of the Walt Whitman poetry. Certainly, Shaw's conclusion is one of the most inspiriting that I have ever heard - a marvelous performance.
(//)

Listened to this very fine disk tonight.  First, loved the program.  Just imagine if that was a single concert.  Wow, what a concert.  I think in the 1990's, Telarc was pretty much state of the art sonics.  This recording sounds fantastic, but the organ is too muted.  I think that's one of the reasons I love Hickox so much is the organ is so present.  Keep in mind, organs aren't just about volume - they are frequently range.  They have subharmonic frequencies that you can't even here but feel.  Similarly, they have overtone frequencies that are above hearing but add sheen to what you perceive.  These frequencies are felt not necessarily heard but that's sort of one and the same.  But a very important point not all audio systems can even play these frequencies in the first place.  Shaw's interpretation is so beautiful and sensitive to the material.  The baritone is a bit recessed but I'm being quite picky.  This is very fine music interpretation and should stand proudly on anyone's list of recordings.  Just imagine if Shaw had recorded a full cycle of RVW symphonies with these forces.  I must say, this could be the best choral version.  Not necessarily best interpretative or orchestral performance but several times I stood in awe at the quality of the vocal performance and don't think it ever reached this quality level.  This is a very solid album. 

EDIT: Just to refine a comment I made about the organ, it is there and prominent, but not in a grand way.  This could be an interpretive challenge...should the organ blend or dominate?  Some consider it the "king of instruments" and when used, the composer intends it to be heard prominently (eg: Strauss Also Sprach Zarathustra) even when it's soft, its dominating.  The organ is a very wide-ranging instrument but when used in tutti settings it is meant to dominate.  Mahler 8 begins with a solo fortissimo organ.  That should be thunderous.  If a performance starts with this tepid, it's a misfire.  MTT/SFO was a misfire.  That is not an instrument meant to be hidden.  This instrument induces heart palpitations.  You're firing on all cylinders when using this grand instrument and I fully believe RVW knew this.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on November 18, 2022, 04:26:48 PM
Shaw's big reputation was as a choral conductor (as a college student in Atlanta, I heard him conducting the Berlioz Requiem. I attended other ASO concerts but that's the only one of which I have any real memory, from 40+ years ago).

He probably would have been good in the Sea Symphony, but I suspect less in the rest of the cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 19, 2022, 12:56:10 AM
I've enjoyed reading the DNP and Shaw/organ observations. I must listen to the Barber and Bartok on the same CD!
I've had the Shaw DNP CD for a long time but had forgotten how good it is.
AFAIK Abravanel's Utah recording was the first ever for DNP. I discovered it on LP. I found a copy in a second-hand record shop in Manchester (when visiting a friend) decades ago. When I got on the train to return to London, I thought that I would check the condition of the vinyl. To my horror I discovered that, instead on containing Dona Nobis Pacem, the sleeve contained an LP of Schubert's 'Trout Quintet' :o ??? >:D
I had to take a flying leap off the train before it pulled out of the station to return to the shop!
(//)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on November 20, 2022, 03:45:49 AM
Quote from: JBS on November 18, 2022, 04:26:48 PM
Shaw's big reputation was as a choral conductor (as a college student in Atlanta, I heard him conducting the Berlioz Requiem. I attended other ASO concerts but that's the only one of which I have any real memory, from 40+ years ago).

He probably would have been good in the Sea Symphony, but I suspect less in the rest of the cycle.


That's fair.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2022, 04:40:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 19, 2022, 12:56:10 AM
I've enjoyed reading the DNP and Shaw/organ observations. I must listen to the Barber and Bartok on the same CD!
I've had the Shaw DNP CD for a long time but had forgotten how good it is.
AFAIK Abravanel's Utah recording was the first ever for DNP. I discovered it on LP. I found a copy in a second-hand record shop in Manchester (when visiting a friend) decades ago. When I got on the train to return to London, I thought that I would check the condition of the vinyl. To my horror I discovered that, instead on containing Dona Nobis Pacem, the sleeve contained an LP of Schubert's 'Trout Quintet' :o ??? >:D
I had to take a flying leap off the train before it pulled out of the station to return to the shop!
(//)
At a charity shop, I found a LP of Karajan conducting a Sibelius symphony.  In short, the LP wasn't from the same era/pressing as the sleeve.  I've learned also to double-check whether the LP is mono or stereo.

PD

p.s.  Vaughan Williams sounds like a nice way to "start" my morning; I did already listen to some music from a baroque music program.  Must admit, I'm appreciating the tiny bit of extra heat generated by my tube equipment!  ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 21, 2022, 01:14:18 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2022, 04:40:30 AM
At a charity shop, I found a LP of Karajan conducting a Sibelius symphony.  In short, the LP wasn't from the same era/pressing as the sleeve.  I've learned also to double-check whether the LP is mono or stereo.

PD

p.s.  Vaughan Williams sounds like a nice way to "start" my morning; I did already listen to some music from a baroque music program.  Must admit, I'm appreciating the tiny bit of extra heat generated by my tube equipment!  ::)
Well PD - at least it was the same composer (Sibelius)! They managed to find the right LP when I got back to the shop. I'm enjoying VW conducting DNP again this morning. :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 21, 2022, 03:55:20 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 21, 2022, 01:14:18 AM
Well PD - at least it was the same composer (Sibelius)! They managed to find the right LP when I got back to the shop. I'm enjoying VW conducting DNP again this morning. :)
Oh, good!

Actually, I've just had another look at the LP and sleeve and have a question; I'll post it under the vinyl thread however.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 24, 2022, 01:45:44 AM
Excellent review of this special release:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Nov/VW-live-v3-50192.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on November 24, 2022, 11:09:38 PM
More from Somm.

Vaughan Williams String Quartets 1 & 2.
Holst: Phantasy Quartet.

Recorded earlier this year and a nice touch, released on RVW's 150th anniversary.

 http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2022/11/ralph-vaughan-williams-and-gustav-holst.html
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on November 30, 2022, 10:41:00 PM
An interesting comparative review of the Hickox/Davis and Elder cycles:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Dec/VW-sys-CHSA5303.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2022, 08:49:32 AM
I'd recommend this new release which I've played through several times since returning home from work this evening to find it in the post box. The highlight for me is the new recording of the Fantasia on the Old 104th but, actually I've enjoyed every work on the CD. I could have done without another recording of The Lark Ascending but this is the version for violin and piano which I prefer. The early Piano Quintet is another highlight as is the eloquent Romance for Violin and Piano.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2022, 03:48:28 AM
Strongly recommended even if you own other versions of the Five Mystical Songs:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 26, 2022, 08:40:54 AM
I posted this on another forum on RVW's B-Day.
Have been revisiting his Piano Concerto in C lately. I was previously familiar with the older 2 piano version which seemed a little unwieldy in that arrangement but now I have the Ashley Wass performance with the Liverpool Phil. and have thoroughly reignited my passion for RVW's masterpiece. Apparently Bartok loved the Toccata1st movement. It is suitably bravura and a bold sonic barrage that would have the hipsters clutching their pork pie hats. The second movement is sumptuously romantic night music with quietly sweeping piano arpeggios and hints of the Fuga theme sprinkled liberally about which then leads to an even more beautiful and transcendent melody that would melt a dodecaphonists face. The Fuga Chromatica con Finale Alla Tedesco is a romp. Inversions, retrogrades, canons abound in this free form but still tonal and "fugal-y" relevant fugue form. The Finale alla tedesco carries over the Fuga theme and developes it further into a demonic waltz/cadenza and after a lovely recapitulation of the Night/Transcendant music the orchestra and piano swell to a full and radiant mp C chord and evaporate into the cool evening.
HBD, RVW,
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 26, 2022, 11:16:33 AM
An interesting review of the earlier Boult symphony cycle:
https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/music/0504/classical/williams.htm
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on December 26, 2022, 11:27:05 AM
Quote from: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 26, 2022, 08:40:54 AMI posted this on another forum on RVW's B-Day.
Have been revisiting his Piano Concerto in C lately. I was previously familiar with the older 2 piano version which seemed a little unwieldy in that arrangement but now I have the Ashley Wass performance with the Liverpool Phil. and have thoroughly reignited my passion for RVW's masterpiece. Apparently Bartok loved the Toccata1st movement. It is suitably bravura and a bold sonic barrage that would have the hipsters clutching their pork pie hats. The second movement is sumptuously romantic night music with quietly sweeping piano arpeggios and hints of the Fuga theme sprinkled liberally about which then leads to an even more beautiful and transcendent melody that would melt a dodecaphonists face. The Fuga Chromatica con Finale Alla Tedesco is a romp. Inversions, retrogrades, canons abound in this free form but still tonal and "fugal-y" relevant fugue form. The Finale alla tedesco carries over the Fuga theme and developes it further into a demonic waltz/cadenza and after a lovely recapitulation of the Night/Transcendant music the orchestra and piano swell to a full and radiant mp C chord and evaporate into the cool evening.
HBD, RVW,

The RVW Piano Concerto is magnificent, either in the solo or duet versions: it just works. A great coupling for it is on Lyrita with John Foulds' equally stunning Dynamic Triptych with Howard Shelley and Vernon Handley. Both superb performances (as usual with both artists). Along with the Three Mantras this was one of Foulds' most visionary works and is well worth seeking out (and then supplement it with the Oramo discs on Warner and the Corp discs on Dutton). But returning to the RVW, why does nobody ever play it in concert? Simply because the magnificent symphonies get most of the playing time - when is the last time that you heard the oboe, violin or tuba concertos live? Erm, never. The same can be said of most of the choral works and the operas. In a way there is just too much excellence and concert planners can only get their heads around a limited repertoire. Alright, if you've got a chorus do A Sea Symphony, if you haven't do one of the others or possibly the overture to The Wasps or the orchestral version of Serenade to Music. Over the years I've supplemented the great EMI 30 disc "Collectors Edition" box with virtually everything else that has now been recorded (especially by Dutton, Naxos and Albion) to the point where I can't really envisage that there will be any other significant "recording premieres". Undoubtedly the Piano Concerto would go down a storm - it's virtuosic, tuneful and wonderfully orchestrated. Either version is equally satisfying (the EMI box has both) but it's essential RVW...

:)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 26, 2022, 01:19:21 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 26, 2022, 11:16:33 AMAn interesting review of the earlier Boult symphony cycle:
https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/music/0504/classical/williams.htm
Aye, an interesting read.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 26, 2022, 10:06:41 PM
Quote from: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 26, 2022, 08:40:54 AMand after a lovely recapitulation of the Night/Transcendant music the orchestra and piano swell to a full and radiant mp C chord and evaporate into the cool evening.
After referencing Kennedy concerning the Piano Concerto I was baffled that he says the piece ends "...uncompromisingly in G major." when in fact it most assuredly ends in B major. So we both misstepped (though mine was only a 1/2 step).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 27, 2022, 12:40:51 AM
Quote from: Albion on December 26, 2022, 11:27:05 AMThe RVW Piano Concerto is magnificent, either in the solo or duet versions: it just works. A great coupling for it is on Lyrita with John Foulds' equally stunning Dynamic Triptych with Howard Shelley and Vernon Handley. Both superb performances (as usual with both artists). Along with the Three Mantras this was one of Foulds' most visionary works and is well worth seeking out (and then supplement it with the Oramo discs on Warner and the Corp discs on Dutton). But returning to the RVW, why does nobody ever play it in concert? Simply because the magnificent symphonies get most of the playing time - when is the last time that you heard the oboe, violin or tuba concertos live? Erm, never. The same can be said of most of the choral works and the operas. In a way there is just too much excellence and concert planners can only get their heads around a limited repertoire. Alright, if you've got a chorus do A Sea Symphony, if you haven't do one of the others or possibly the overture to The Wasps or the orchestral version of Serenade to Music. Over the years I've supplemented the great EMI 30 disc "Collectors Edition" box with virtually everything else that has now been recorded (especially by Dutton, Naxos and Albion) to the point where I can't really envisage that there will be any other significant "recording premieres". Undoubtedly the Piano Concerto would go down a storm - it's virtuosic, tuneful and wonderfully orchestrated. Either version is equally satisfying (the EMI box has both) but it's essential RVW...

:)
Although I did get to hear Foulds's 'A World Requiem' live! Foulds was a very fine composer, sadly he died young. The Three Mantras, April, Dynamic Triptych and Hellas are favourites.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on December 27, 2022, 02:39:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 26, 2022, 11:16:33 AMAn interesting review of the earlier Boult symphony cycle:
https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/music/0504/classical/williams.htm

Interesting indeed. Thanks for posting, Jeffrey. A well researched review but I think worth mentioning that the Decca set was produced by the great John Culshaw and sound engineering by the equally great Kenneth Wilkinson. The reviewer mentions the set was recorded 1953-54. I am shocked to discover these unbelievable set of recording dates.

Symphony No.4 2/12/1953

Symphony No.5 3/12/1953

Symphony No.6 15/12 1953

I do not have the recording dates of the other symphonies to hand. The intensity of the sessions at the Kingsway Hall must have been something!   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 27, 2022, 02:48:01 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 27, 2022, 02:39:45 AMInteresting indeed. Thanks for posting, Jeffrey. A well researched review but I think worth mentioning that the Decca set was produced by the great John Culshaw and sound engineering by the equally great Kenneth Wilkinson. The reviewer mentions the set was recorded 1953-54. I am shocked to discover these unbelievable set of recording dates.

Symphony No.4 2/12/1953

Symphony No.5 3/12/1953

Symphony No.6 15/12 1953

I do not have the recording dates of the other symphonies to hand. The intensity of the sessions at the Kingsway Hall must have been something!   
Would love to have been a fly on the wall then...er, maybe not a fly because don't they only live like 3 days?  A friend of someone who was allowed to hang around then? 

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 28, 2022, 02:31:12 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 27, 2022, 02:39:45 AMInteresting indeed. Thanks for posting, Jeffrey. A well researched review but I think worth mentioning that the Decca set was produced by the great John Culshaw and sound engineering by the equally great Kenneth Wilkinson. The reviewer mentions the set was recorded 1953-54. I am shocked to discover these unbelievable set of recording dates.

Symphony No.4 2/12/1953

Symphony No.5 3/12/1953

Symphony No.6 15/12 1953

I do not have the recording dates of the other symphonies to hand. The intensity of the sessions at the Kingsway Hall must have been something!   
I see what you mean Lol!
The photo below appears in the Decca box set booklet with the following caption:
'Sir Adrian Boult with Ralph and Ursula Vaughan Williams in Kingsway Hall on 1st January 1954, the last day of the Decca recording sessions for 'A Sea Symphony' and the Sixth Symphony (the score of which is open on the table)'
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 28, 2022, 02:32:16 AM
See above post
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on December 28, 2022, 06:29:50 AM
Two fascinating broadcast documentaries on one of the true giants of British music

R.V.W.: a portrait in words, music and memories of Ralph Vaughan Williams by Michael Oliver broadcast in the series Music Weekly on Sunday 6th December 1981

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdERwMxpWn8

and a recent survey to celebrate his 150th anniversary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHMIqVY123s

 :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on December 28, 2022, 11:56:54 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 28, 2022, 02:32:16 AMSee above post


Great minds!

After typing my post I thought - Three symphonies recorded in a fortnight and we are still talking and more importantly listening to them 70 years later!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on December 29, 2022, 05:13:51 AM
The photo on the cover of "Music & Friends" shows RVW engrossed in his new iphone, which is clearly also attracting the attention of Boult...

 ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on December 29, 2022, 05:22:59 AM
Quote from: Albion on December 29, 2022, 05:13:51 AMThe photo on the cover of "Music & Friends" shows RVW engrossed in his new iphone, which is clearly also attracting the attention of Boult...

 ;D
It wasn't his eye-phone, but clearly his ear-phone! 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on December 29, 2022, 05:24:11 AM
Quote from: Albion on December 29, 2022, 05:13:51 AMThe photo on the cover of "Music & Friends" shows RVW engrossed in his new iphone, which is clearly also attracting the attention of Boult...

 ;D

He looks like he's trying to log in but forgot his password while Boult is saying "try 'Password'."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on December 29, 2022, 05:49:38 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 29, 2022, 05:22:59 AMIt wasn't his eye-phone, but clearly his ear-phone! 

 ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on December 29, 2022, 05:54:25 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 29, 2022, 05:24:11 AMHe looks like he's trying to log in but forgot his password while Boult is saying "try 'Password'."

 :D

...or "try 'Antartica' and if that fails try 'Antarctica'"
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 29, 2022, 07:27:18 AM
Quote from: Albion on December 29, 2022, 05:13:51 AMThe photo on the cover of "Music & Friends" shows RVW engrossed in his new iphone, which is clearly also attracting the attention of Boult...

 ;D
;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 30, 2022, 05:36:33 AM
Over the past couple of  weeks I have been listening to the Naxos/Bournemouth SO symphony cycle. The set is split between Kees Bakels and Paul Daniel. It is a fine cycle with no weak links though none of them displace my favourites.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on December 30, 2022, 05:58:38 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 30, 2022, 05:36:33 AMOver the past couple of  weeks I have been listening to the Naxos/Bournemouth SO symphony cycle. The set is split between Kees Bakels and Paul Daniel. It is a fine cycle with no weak links though none of them displace my favourites.

Naxos has now become an incredibly serious contender in the recording industry, attracting first class artists, conductors and orchestras and continually exploring the repertoire (which has produced far more hits than misses). At a time when the ridiculously-named "majors" (Universal, Warner, Sony, etc.) are busy repackaging their enormous back catalogues from various amalgamated labels and issuing ridiculously large boxes that nobody in their right mind would ever have the time or inclination to sit through, Naxos is head and shoulders above them in terms of new releases of interest: Naxos, Chandos, Hyperion, Lyrita, BIS, Dutton and DaCapo, etc. continue to offer surprises as well and this is where all the enterprise is...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 30, 2022, 06:18:28 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 30, 2022, 05:36:33 AMOver the past couple of  weeks I have been listening to the Naxos/Bournemouth SO symphony cycle. The set is split between Kees Bakels and Paul Daniel. It is a fine cycle with no weak links though none of them displace my favourites.
FWIW, those Kees Bakels recordings unlocked the symphonies for me.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on December 30, 2022, 06:46:08 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 30, 2022, 06:18:28 AMFWIW, those Kees Bakels recordings unlocked the symphonies for me.

I grew up with Adrian Boult on EMI and Andre Previn on RCA, both great cycles, and since then there has been such a proliferation of excellent recordings by Vernon Handley, Andrew Davis, Leonard Slatkin, etc. that it is difficult to keep up with them. I will try and have a listen to some of the Naxos...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on December 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 30, 2022, 05:36:33 AMOver the past couple of  weeks I have been listening to the Naxos/Bournemouth SO symphony cycle. The set is split between Kees Bakels and Paul Daniel. It is a fine cycle with no weak links though none of them displace my favourites.
I feel the same about the Vernon Handley cycle on CFP. They are all good but none would be my first choice.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on December 30, 2022, 11:13:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AMI feel the same about the Vernon Handley cycle on CFP. They are all good but none would be my first choice.

Admittedly, Handley's set now receives more mixed reviews than it did on initial release largely on account of the sonics (which are not really a major problem) but the actual performances themselves are very strongly-conceived and very well realised by the RLPO. When he entered the field there was nowhere near the same competition available that there is now and this should be remembered. As with Bax, we are now blessed with an abundance of riches...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on December 30, 2022, 11:28:59 AM
Perhaps it's simply the bias of being the one most recently listened to, but Boult's Decca cycle is the one I think people should hear.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on December 30, 2022, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: JBS on December 30, 2022, 11:28:59 AMPerhaps it's simply the bias of being the one most recently listened to, but Boult's Decca cycle is the one I think people should hear.

With either Boult on Decca or Boult on EMI you really are in for a treat (it's better to have both). I really don't think that there has been a total write-off in terms of RVW recorded symphony cycles. Add Previn, Handley and Slatkin into the mix and there's no way that you can go wrong. Haitink and Rozhdestvensky both had hits and misses in their sets, but offered fascinating alternatives to the "received" tradition. Likewise the two Chandos cycles (Thomson and Hickox/ Davis) are valuable because these conductors always brought their best to the table even when the engineering was sub-par: neither of the Chandos sets is a top contender, but then neither are they inconsiderable achievements. I can't say that I care much for the Elder (Halle), the Brabbins (Hyperion) or the Manze (Onyx) recordings - why are indie companies even doing this repertoire instead of concentrating on that they do best, i.e. exploration of previously unrecorded stuff...

 ::)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on December 30, 2022, 01:45:38 PM
Quote from: Albion on December 30, 2022, 01:30:00 PMWith either Boult on Decca or Boult on EMI you really are in for a treat (it's better to have both). I really don't think that there has been a total write-off in terms of RVW recorded symphony cycles. Add Previn, Handley and Slatkin into the mix and there's no way that you can go wrong. Haitink and Rozhdestvensky both had hits and misses in their sets, but offered fascinating alternatives to the "received" tradition. Likewise the two Chandos cycles (Thomson and Hickox/ Davis) are valuable because these conductors always brought their best to the table even when the engineering was sub-par: neither of the Chandos sets is a top contender, but then neither are they inconsiderable achievements. I can't say that I care much for the Elder (Halle), the Brabbins (Hyperion) or the Manze (Onyx) recordings - why are indie companies even doing this repertoire instead of concentrating on that they do best, i.e. exploration of previously unrecorded stuff...

 ::)

I like the Manze; I seem to be in a minority in that.

I got the first release in Elder's cycle, was not impressed so didn't get the rest until the new Songs of Travel/Job CD, which is good.

I think the Brabbins is fairly good, and generally uses as couplings RVW works that aren't recorded very often (I think in one case at least, never recorded before).

I've got the Boult EMI set, and intend to give it and the Haitink cycle new listens sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 30, 2022, 06:56:46 PM
From the recorded performance L. Bernstein gave of RVW's 4th symphony it is a shame and maybe a travesty he never recorded the cycle. A gorgeous performance of the Serenade to music is on the same album.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on December 31, 2022, 03:07:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AMI feel the same about the Vernon Handley cycle on CFP. They are all good but none would be my first choice.

I bought the Handley cycle piecemeal over a number of years; I think I may have to revisit it as a cycle.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on December 31, 2022, 05:55:28 AM
I listened to this recording yesterday and thought it was a very beautiful disc, highly recommended!
(https://d9cahy9arw81t.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2022/08/19135340/SOMMCD0656-cover-600x600.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 31, 2022, 09:56:53 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 31, 2022, 05:55:28 AMI listened to this recording yesterday and thought it was a very beautiful disc, highly recommended!
(https://d9cahy9arw81t.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2022/08/19135340/SOMMCD0656-cover-600x600.jpg)

Great stuff! I've only heard the (excellent) Maggini Quartet recordings on Naxos, but I'm sure that new Somm recording is fine as well. I love the contrast between the two RVW quartets - the first is largely sunny, pastoral, and quasi-Ravelian, while the second is an angry, impassioned work in the mature style of the 6th Symphony.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: kyjo on December 31, 2022, 10:01:30 AM
Quote from: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 26, 2022, 08:40:54 AMI posted this on another forum on RVW's B-Day.
Have been revisiting his Piano Concerto in C lately. I was previously familiar with the older 2 piano version which seemed a little unwieldy in that arrangement but now I have the Ashley Wass performance with the Liverpool Phil. and have thoroughly reignited my passion for RVW's masterpiece. Apparently Bartok loved the Toccata1st movement. It is suitably bravura and a bold sonic barrage that would have the hipsters clutching their pork pie hats. The second movement is sumptuously romantic night music with quietly sweeping piano arpeggios and hints of the Fuga theme sprinkled liberally about which then leads to an even more beautiful and transcendent melody that would melt a dodecaphonists face. The Fuga Chromatica con Finale Alla Tedesco is a romp. Inversions, retrogrades, canons abound in this free form but still tonal and "fugal-y" relevant fugue form. The Finale alla tedesco carries over the Fuga theme and developes it further into a demonic waltz/cadenza and after a lovely recapitulation of the Night/Transcendant music the orchestra and piano swell to a full and radiant mp C chord and evaporate into the cool evening.
HBD, RVW,

Great post! I greatly enjoy this work in either version and think it's one of his greatest works. My favorite RVW works are those in which both sides of his personality are present: the angular, harmonically astringent side and the beautifully lyrical, modal side, and this work definitely falls into that category!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on December 31, 2022, 11:08:31 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 31, 2022, 09:56:53 AMGreat stuff! I've only heard the (excellent) Maggini Quartet recordings on Naxos, but I'm sure that new Somm recording is fine as well. I love the contrast between the two RVW quartets - the first is largely sunny, pastoral, and quasi-Ravelian, while the second is an angry, impassioned work in the mature style of the 6th Symphony.

I've got the EMI "Collectors Edition" box which has SQ1 with the Britten Quartet and SQ2 with the Music Group of London, both very enjoyable performances. I supplemented these with the wonderful Hyperion set of early chamber music (CDA 67381-2) by The Nash Ensemble, which shows that as early as 1898 RVW was a master of chamber music. Is there any genre in which he didn't shine - opera, ballet, film, symphony, concerto, tone poem, chamber, instrumental, vocal, choral? Er, nope.

 :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 01, 2023, 01:10:20 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 31, 2022, 05:55:28 AMI listened to this recording yesterday and thought it was a very beautiful disc, highly recommended!
(https://d9cahy9arw81t.cloudfront.net/assets/uploads/2022/08/19135340/SOMMCD0656-cover-600x600.jpg)

I greatly enjoy the Holst rarity coupling too. Placing it in between the two RVW quartets makes for an excellent program of listening.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on January 02, 2023, 02:41:50 AM
I was perusing the liner notes for the up-coming Sinfonia Antartica from Brabbins (March).

(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571284057.png)
RVW Symphonies 7 & 9; Brabbins

And I was interested to read the following:
"The wind machine called for in the score is here represented by audio samples of actual wind."

I'm not sure how I feel about this - I suppose it's not very important either way and I know the wind machine is anathema to many music lovers and technology has moved on of course, but I think I feel that this is rather un-HIP.
Of course it won't be a deal-breaker if I decide I want to buy the recording.  That might depend more on the organ contribution, and the liner notes are very coy about that.  The recording venue was Watford so there is the potential for a live organ contribution, which would be quite unusual among recordings of the Antarctica, usually a 'big beast' organ is dubbed on later (eg, Manze, Boult) - but the notes and recording notes seem to have nothing to say about this.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 02, 2023, 03:16:14 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 02, 2023, 02:41:50 AMI was perusing the liner notes for the up-coming Sinfonia Antartica from Brabbins (March).

(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571284057.png)
RVW Symphonies 7 & 9; Brabbins

And I was interested to read the following:
"The wind machine called for in the score is here represented by audio samples of actual wind."

I'm not sure how I feel about this - I suppose it's not very important either way and I know the wind machine is anathema to many music lovers and technology has moved on of course, but I think I feel that this is rather un-HIP.
Of course it won't be a deal-breaker if I decide I want to buy the recording.  That might depend more on the organ contribution, and the liner notes are very coy about that.  The recording venue was Watford so there is the potential for a live organ contribution, which would be quite unusual among recordings of the Antarctica, usually a 'big beast' organ is dubbed on later (eg, Manze, Boult) - but the notes and recording notes seem to have nothing to say about this.

I think that is a mistake as a production choice.  Apart from anything else it is taking away performance choices from the musicians and literally putting it onto the sound-desk/producer.  The wind machine is an effect albeit a pretty minor one so even if the wind machine used "live" is not realistic well neither are a whole host of other musical representations of "real" things.  So why stop at the wind machine?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on January 02, 2023, 03:47:51 AM
Yes, and the closing of the symphony is indeed a kind of cadenza for Wind Machine.  Obviously it is an instrument that must be played with skill and taste appropriate to the occasion, like any other.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2023, 05:31:24 AM
Most interesting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 02, 2023, 05:59:31 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 02, 2023, 02:41:50 AMI was perusing the liner notes for the up-coming Sinfonia Antartica from Brabbins (March).

(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571284057.png)
RVW Symphonies 7 & 9; Brabbins

And I was interested to read the following:
"The wind machine called for in the score is here represented by audio samples of actual wind."

I'm not sure how I feel about this - I suppose it's not very important either way and I know the wind machine is anathema to many music lovers and technology has moved on of course, but I think I feel that this is rather un-HIP.
Of course it won't be a deal-breaker if I decide I want to buy the recording.  That might depend more on the organ contribution, and the liner notes are very coy about that.  The recording venue was Watford so there is the potential for a live organ contribution, which would be quite unusual among recordings of the Antarctica, usually a 'big beast' organ is dubbed on later (eg, Manze, Boult) - but the notes and recording notes seem to have nothing to say about this.

Pretty sure it is an overdub.  The booklet credits Richard Pearce for the organ and celesta. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on January 02, 2023, 07:13:08 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 02, 2023, 05:59:31 AM"The wind machine called for in the score is here represented by audio samples of actual wind."

Pretty sure it is an overdub.  The booklet credits Richard Pearce for the organ and celesta. 

Hmmm, seems a bit gimmicky. I could have supplied them with audio samples of actual wind for free...

 ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 02, 2023, 04:45:34 PM
Quote from: Albion on January 02, 2023, 07:13:08 AMHmmm, seems a bit gimmicky. I could have supplied them with audio samples of actual wind for free...

 ;D

I don't know mate.  We haven't heard it.  I say wait and hear.   In the end, it is the interpretation that matters most.  A poor interpreation with a real wind machine isn't as important as a great interpretation without it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 05:06:51 AM
If the score calls for a wind machine I think that is what they should use. How about a recording of actual thunder for the storm sequence in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony?  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on January 03, 2023, 05:29:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 05:06:51 AMIf the score calls for a wind machine I think that is what they should use. How about a recording of actual thunder for the storm sequence in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony?  ;D
:-)

In the only performance of it that I heard, they used horns for the wind machine - a solution the score seems to allow.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 03, 2023, 05:32:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 05:06:51 AMIf the score calls for a wind machine I think that is what they should use. How about a recording of actual thunder for the storm sequence in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony?  ;D

I remember this performance of "Cloudburst" from the Grand Canyon Suite made great play of using actual thunder.....!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/WEBP_402378-T1/images/I/51XdZoU6UoL.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 06:02:43 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 03, 2023, 05:32:21 AMI remember this performance of "Cloudburst" from the Grand Canyon Suite made great play of using actual thunder.....!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/WEBP_402378-T1/images/I/51XdZoU6UoL.jpg)
Oh yes! I remenber that.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 10:07:04 AM
Coincidentally BBC Radio 3 featured Sinfonia Antartica in a concert broadcast this afternoon (Brabbins BBC SO - not the forthcoming Hyperion release). I only caught the last movement but it sounded like a powerful, deeply felt performance. I think it featured a wind machine at the end although the announcer, Ian Skelly, broke into it reading an extract from Scott's last diaries. I don't think that this is what the composer had in mind!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on January 03, 2023, 10:14:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 10:07:04 AMCoincidentally BBC Radio 3 featured Sinfonia Antartica in a concert broadcast this afternoon (Brabbins BBC SO - not the forthcoming Hyperion release). I only caught the last movement but it sounded like a powerful, deeply felt performance. I think it featured a wind machine at the end although the announcer, Ian Skelly, broke into it reading an extract from Scott's last diaries. I don't think that this is what the composer had in mind!

Just catching up with this and that's no wind machine (there's none of the usual whirr as the contraption gets spinning - perhaps that's a good thing). The superscriptions are better left unspoken for repeated listening, however beautifully recited: they certainly get in the way of the RCA Previn which is otherwise an amazing performance. I don't quite know why Andre included them except for novelty...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 01:47:38 PM
Quote from: Albion on January 03, 2023, 10:14:23 AMJust catching up with this and that's no wind machine (there's none of the usual whirr as the contraption gets spinning - perhaps that's a good thing). The superscriptions are better left unspoken for repeated listening, however beautifully recited: they certainly get in the way of the RCA Previn which is otherwise an amazing performance. I don't quite know why Andre included them except for novelty...
The same thing applies to the Boult Decca recording. These were made with VW in the studio. I wonder if he was aware that Gielgud would be chipping in!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 03, 2023, 04:26:29 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 05:06:51 AMIf the score calls for a wind machine I think that is what they should use. How about a recording of actual thunder for the storm sequence in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony?  ;D

Not really.  First, it's more important to understand what the composer means rather than what they say.  For example, in Berlioz Symphony Fantastique, no one uses ophicleides today.  It's a tuba now...an interpretation of what they were going for.  Similarly, RVW was very practical, and his scores frequently stated his ideal but then gave practical alternatives.  For instance, in his Sea Symphony he uses 3rd winds and organ which are all given alternatives. He frequently did this.  Some musicians state they want to know the ideal because it impacts their interpretation.  For example, if they see a bass drum but it indicates in the score that the bass drum can be replaced with the timpani, the timpanist better understands what mallets should be used to create that intended sound though it wouldn't be played by a bass drum. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 10:25:22 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 03, 2023, 04:26:29 PMNot really.  First, it's more important to understand what the composer means rather than what they say.  For example, in Berlioz Symphony Fantastique, no one uses ophicleides today.  It's a tuba now...an interpretation of what they were going for.  Similarly, RVW was very practical, and his scores frequently stated his ideal but then gave practical alternatives.  For instance, in his Sea Symphony he uses 3rd winds and organ which are all given alternatives. He frequently did this.  Some musicians state they want to know the ideal because it impacts their interpretation.  For example, if they see a bass drum but it indicates in the score that the bass drum can be replaced with the timpani, the timpanist better understands what mallets should be used to create that intended sound though it wouldn't be played by a bass drum. 
Good point!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 03, 2023, 11:14:24 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 03, 2023, 04:26:29 PMNot really.  First, it's more important to understand what the composer means rather than what they say.  For example, in Berlioz Symphony Fantastique, no one uses ophicleides today.  It's a tuba now...an interpretation of what they were going for.  Similarly, RVW was very practical, and his scores frequently stated his ideal but then gave practical alternatives.  For instance, in his Sea Symphony he uses 3rd winds and organ which are all given alternatives. He frequently did this.  Some musicians state they want to know the ideal because it impacts their interpretation.  For example, if they see a bass drum but it indicates in the score that the bass drum can be replaced with the timpani, the timpanist better understands what mallets should be used to create that intended sound though it wouldn't be played by a bass drum. 

To the highlighted text - this is true - BUT that doesn't mean he was that "happy" about the alternatives.  There is this great quote from RVW regarding alternate instruments - in this instance in the 6th Symphony; "I am tired of boiling down my work so it can be played by two banjos and a harmonium.... if they cannot run to a saxophone I fear they cannot do the symphony." 

Your example of bass drum/timpani remains a performing choice.  I understand that any studio recording is creating the illusion of a live performance but I see no reason why a recording needs to be used in this specific instance since the way it is annotated in the score is instrumental rather than as a straight sound effect.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 03, 2023, 11:53:20 PM
After actually seeing the device in action  https://youtu.be/zjvWZMdllfw I find it difficult to understand a debate why a wind machine shouldn't be used. Fit in the boot of a family car.

All recordings I have heard of the Alpine Symphony use one (far as I'm aware). 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on January 04, 2023, 02:50:15 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 03, 2023, 11:53:20 PMAfter actually seeing the device in action  https://youtu.be/zjvWZMdllfw I find it difficult to understand a debate why a wind machine shouldn't be used. Fit in the boot of a family car.

All recordings I have heard of the Alpine Symphony use one (far as I'm aware). 

 ;D

Wind machines are great and should be used at every opportunity whether required or not: I'd pop one into the B minor Mass quite randomly just for fun...

 ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2023, 03:40:24 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 03, 2023, 11:53:20 PMAfter actually seeing the device in action  https://youtu.be/zjvWZMdllfw I find it difficult to understand a debate why a wind machine shouldn't be used. Fit in the boot of a family car.

All recordings I have heard of the Alpine Symphony use one (far as I'm aware). 
Interesting!  The problem that I have with that one though is that you also heard the steady "thump, thump, thump" as the paddles(?) hit the material.  I prefer this baroque one (though it seems to need some grease where the handle joins the rest of it).  ;D


PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on January 04, 2023, 03:49:43 AM
A wind machine was used for the first performance, in Manchester, but was found to be inadequate. A few days later, for the first performance in London, horn-players blowing across the mouth-pieces of their instruments was tried but this didn't work well and another unsatisfactory wind-machine was used.

A suitable machine must have been found for Barbirolli's recording a few weeks later - perhaps it was dubbed in.

Ealing Studios must have had a suitable machine for recording the soundtrack but perhaps it was too powerful for a concert hall.

Anyway, the problem seems to have been solved.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 04, 2023, 05:47:12 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 03, 2023, 11:53:20 PMAfter actually seeing the device in action  https://youtu.be/zjvWZMdllfw I find it difficult to understand a debate why a wind machine shouldn't be used. Fit in the boot of a family car.

All recordings I have heard of the Alpine Symphony use one (far as I'm aware). 

Slightly off topic but should all performances of Scriabin's late orchestral works use a color organ because he specified it?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 04, 2023, 05:56:42 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2023, 03:40:24 AMInteresting!  The problem that I have with that one though is that you also heard the steady "thump, thump, thump" as the paddles(?) hit the material.  I prefer this baroque one (though it seems to need some grease where the handle joins the rest of it).  ;D


PD

I think part of the trick is not seeing what it actually is.  When you see it's just sticks being rubbed against leather or canvas, it's not as impressive.  If it was out of sight, the effect would be more chilling I think.  Has anyone here seen Sinfonia Antarctica live?  Are the vocalists on stage or off-stage otherworldly spirits?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2023, 06:08:41 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 04, 2023, 05:56:42 AMI think part of the trick is not seeing what it actually is.  When you see it's just sticks being rubbed against leather or canvas, it's not as impressive.  If it was out of sight, the effect would be more chilling I think.  Has anyone here seen Sinfonia Antarctica live?  Are the vocalists on stage or off-stage otherworldly spirits?
Good point.

Would love to see it being performed.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 04, 2023, 06:25:04 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2023, 03:40:24 AMInteresting!  The problem that I have with that one though is that you also heard the steady "thump, thump, thump" as the paddles(?) hit the material.  I prefer this baroque one (though it seems to need some grease where the handle joins the rest of it).  ;D


PD

Straight to the chase, PD. Are you claiming your wind machine is better then mine!? :-\ 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 04, 2023, 06:27:48 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 04, 2023, 03:49:43 AMA wind machine was used for the first performance, in Manchester, but was found to be inadequate. A few days later, for the first performance in London, horn-players blowing across the mouth-pieces of their instruments was tried but this didn't work well and another unsatisfactory wind-machine was used.

A suitable machine must have been found for Barbirolli's recording a few weeks later - perhaps it was dubbed in.

Ealing Studios must have had a suitable machine for recording the soundtrack but perhaps it was too powerful for a concert hall.

Anyway, the problem seems to have been solved.

Spot miked?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 04, 2023, 06:29:08 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2023, 06:08:41 AMGood point.

Would love to see it being performed.

PD

I once attended a fascinating masterclass where the composer combined different sensory methods along with the music.  In her case, it was very carefully selected scents.  These weren't just supermarket essential oils but some fancy types that are very specifically chosen.  She asked we close our eyes while listening and inhale the scent when directed.  We then talked about the various experiences.  It was a fascinating (though impractical) experience.  For me, that combination of sound and scent brought me back to a memory from my past - sitting under the stars as a kid in the middle of a desert while driving with my family.  The scent had nothing to do with the smell of the desert or family or anything like that, but the combination of sound and scent brought me to that time and place in my past.  Everyone had a slightly different experience unique to them but interestingly, the composer did say the meaning was recalling a distant memory with family out far from any civilization and she delighted in how close my impression matched her intent. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Biffo on January 04, 2023, 06:51:59 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 04, 2023, 06:27:48 AMSpot miked?

I have just listened to the Barbirolli recording and the wind-machine sounds appropriately chilling at the close of the Finale, possibly a matter of balance. In 1948 Sir Ernest Irving recorded excerpts of the film score with the Philharmonia Orchestra; they are very atmospheric but the wind-machine sounds rather puny and artificial.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2023, 07:00:55 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 04, 2023, 06:25:04 AMStraight to the chase, PD. Are you claiming your wind machine is better then mine!? :-\ 
:-X  ;D

Quote from: relm1 on January 04, 2023, 06:29:08 AMI once attended a fascinating masterclass where the composer combined different sensory methods along with the music.  In her case, it was very carefully selected scents.  These weren't just supermarket essential oils but some fancy types that are very specifically chosen.  She asked we close our eyes while listening and inhale the scent when directed.  We then talked about the various experiences.  It was a fascinating (though impractical) experience.  For me, that combination of sound and scent brought me back to a memory from my past - sitting under the stars as a kid in the middle of a desert while driving with my family.  The scent had nothing to do with the smell of the desert or family or anything like that, but the combination of sound and scent brought me to that time and place in my past.  Everyone had a slightly different experience unique to them but interestingly, the composer did say the meaning was recalling a distant memory with family out far from any civilization and she delighted in how close my impression matched her intent. 
I remember hearing some time ago that casinos scented their air with cumin in order to promote more gambling.  Just read an article which goes into the science further (Notice though that the company is using this article as a way to drum up more casino business...see at the bottom of it!).  https://www.airscent.com/how-casino-brands-use-scent-marketing-to-attract-retain-gamblers/  Oh, how we are manipulated!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on January 04, 2023, 07:58:18 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 04, 2023, 05:56:42 AM... If it was out of sight, the effect would be more chilling I think.  Has anyone here seen Sinfonia Antarctica live?  Are the vocalists on stage or off-stage otherworldly spirits?

I do sincerely hope that in any live performance the wind machine and its associated hard-working percussionist would be featured for all to see and celebrate, much like a tam-tam would be.
I don't think these things are at all rare - most rep theatres up and down the country probably have one in their props store - but they are liable to be in a poor state of repair, rotting canvas, shaky wood frame, etc.
These days a synthesiser can do a better job (in skilled hands).

As for the one at Ealing Studios - I used to work there, in the very studio used for dubbing music onto films, and very likely had my hands on it.  I don't actually remember it, but there was a lot of junk in that place and I do well remember finding in a corner of that studio, and attempting to renovate, an original Mellotron (if anyone remembers what that was ! )
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on January 04, 2023, 11:27:43 AM
There's one live performance on Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3TDKub6sYc

The wind machine is situated next to the drums, behind the keyboardists.

There's another live performance, but it's arranged for chamber orchestra, so I didn't check on it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2023, 12:19:27 PM
Quote from: JBS on January 04, 2023, 11:27:43 AMThere's one live performance on Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3TDKub6sYc

The wind machine is situated next to the drums, behind the keyboardists.

There's another live performance, but it's arranged for chamber orchestra, so I didn't check on it.
Wow, that's big one!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 10, 2023, 01:29:04 PM
March release (UK)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on January 10, 2023, 10:56:33 PM
Somm's Volume 4 is out on 10th Feb:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQyNTkzMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NzI4MjQ4NzR9)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 12, 2023, 12:51:25 AM
Came across this photo on a YT upload of Fantasia on Rodders channel. I'm curious who the chap standing in the middle may be?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on January 12, 2023, 01:19:45 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 12, 2023, 12:51:25 AMCame across this photo on a YT upload of Fantasia on Rodders channel. I'm curious who the chap standing in the middle may be?

Hi Lol,

Getty sells that picture and names that middle man as Professor Wordsworth?

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/dr-ralph-vaughan-williams-britains-leading-composer-with-news-photo/2630730 (https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/dr-ralph-vaughan-williams-britains-leading-composer-with-news-photo/2630730)

Some nice Boult pictures on that site to boot!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 12, 2023, 01:41:18 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 12, 2023, 12:51:25 AMCame across this photo on a YT upload of Fantasia on Rodders channel. I'm curious who the chap standing in the middle may be?
Looks a bit like William Alwyn.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 12, 2023, 03:44:32 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 10, 2023, 10:56:33 PMSomm's Volume 4 is out on 10th Feb:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQyNTkzMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NzI4MjQ4NzR9)
Thanks Olivier - most interesting. I had no idea that there would be a volume 4.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 12, 2023, 04:09:22 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 12, 2023, 12:51:25 AMCame across this photo on a YT upload of Fantasia on Rodders channel. I'm curious who the chap standing in the middle may be?
I'm trying to figure out who the Prof. Wordsworth was (doing a quick google, the dates don't seem to match up).

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 12, 2023, 06:09:26 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 12, 2023, 01:19:45 AMHi Lol,

Getty sells that picture and names that middle man as Professor Wordsworth?

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/dr-ralph-vaughan-williams-britains-leading-composer-with-news-photo/2630730 (https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/dr-ralph-vaughan-williams-britains-leading-composer-with-news-photo/2630730)

Some nice Boult pictures on that site to boot!


I think it may be G. Wallace Woodworth a Professor of music at Harvard University.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on January 12, 2023, 06:25:34 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 12, 2023, 06:09:26 AMI think it may be G. Wallace Woodworth a Professor of music at Harvard University.

Looks like a good photo-fit, although he DOES have a bit of the William Alwyn profile. Bloody Nora, a blackboard with staves!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 12, 2023, 06:57:15 AM
Ah, I think you're right about the professor.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 13, 2023, 12:52:29 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 12, 2023, 06:57:15 AMAh, I think you're right about the professor.

PD

Think I am PD. A choral music connection between "Woody" Woodworth and RVW.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 13, 2023, 08:36:05 AM
Here's a clip I found online of Boult conducting VW's 8th Symphony at the Festival Hall, London on 12th October 1972 (the composer's 100th birthday). My 17 year-old self was at the concert - a great nostalgia trip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRXkISjm97U
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 14, 2023, 12:47:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 13, 2023, 08:36:05 AMHere's a clip I found online of Boult conducting VW's 8th Symphony at the Festival Hall, London on 12th October 1972 (the composer's 100th birthday). My 17 year-old self was at the concert - a great nostalgia trip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRXkISjm97U

How fit the 83 year old Sir Adrian appears!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on January 14, 2023, 01:09:00 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 14, 2023, 12:47:57 AMHow fit the 83 year old Sir Adrian appears!

He was just as fit when he conducted that great Parry disc (Symphony No.5, Symphonic Variations and Elegy for Brahms) for EMI in 1979...

 :o  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 14, 2023, 01:19:49 AM
Quote from: Albion on January 14, 2023, 01:09:00 AMHe was just as fit when he conducted that great Parry disc (Symphony No.5, Symphonic Variations and Elegy for Brahms) for EMI in 1979...

 :o  8)
Yes, that was Boult's final recording I think - a marvellous disc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 14, 2023, 05:59:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 13, 2023, 08:36:05 AMHere's a clip I found online of Boult conducting VW's 8th Symphony at the Festival Hall, London on 12th October 1972 (the composer's 100th birthday). My 17 year-old self was at the concert - a great nostalgia trip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRXkISjm97U

I have a vintage baton just like that!  It was given to me by a student of Boults!  I wonder if it was once Boult's baton.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on January 14, 2023, 06:00:37 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 14, 2023, 12:47:57 AMHow fit the 83 year old Sir Adrian appears!

I was thinking...wow, he always looked like that.  Even in his 40's.  Maybe in his 20's too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on January 15, 2023, 12:23:49 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 14, 2023, 06:00:37 AMI was thinking...wow, he always looked like that.  Even in his 40's.  Maybe in his 20's too.

Forcibly retired by the BBC in 1950! Age discrimination madness. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 15, 2023, 09:28:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 13, 2023, 08:36:05 AMHere's a clip I found online of Boult conducting VW's 8th Symphony at the Festival Hall, London on 12th October 1972 (the composer's 100th birthday). My 17 year-old self was at the concert - a great nostalgia trip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRXkISjm97U
Thanks for that clip!  I enjoyed watching it.

Quote from: Irons on January 15, 2023, 12:23:49 AMForcibly retired by the BBC in 1950! Age discrimination madness. 
At 61 they made him retire?!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 15, 2023, 10:46:19 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 15, 2023, 09:28:25 AMThanks for that clip!  I enjoyed watching it.
At 61 they made him retire?!

PD

The BBC used to have a compulsory retirement age for ALL personnel at 60
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 15, 2023, 02:46:32 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 15, 2023, 10:46:19 AMThe BBC used to have a compulsory retirement age for ALL personnel at 60

Very good idea, but only if they only compulsorily retire the incompetent and mediocre. The Boults of the world should be allowed serve until they drop.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 16, 2023, 01:23:58 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 15, 2023, 09:28:25 AMThanks for that clip!  I enjoyed watching it.
At 61 they made him retire?!

PD
Glad you enjoyed it PD.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 16, 2023, 01:58:20 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 15, 2023, 10:46:19 AMThe BBC used to have a compulsory retirement age for ALL personnel at 60
I suspected as much...thanks for the info though.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 20, 2023, 08:03:45 AM
Hello, my fellow fellows on the Veranda!

I have updated my Vaughan William Symphony Cycle Survey and wanted to share the joyous news!

Cheerio,

Jens


 A Survey of Vaughan Williams Symphony Cycles

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S4Q0Wst0nic/XA_HquEYihI/AAAAAAAAKqI/CfXy9Gb3zyUzVrO6pNkMBrVHi7AkbB4HgCLcBGAs/s1600/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams_ionarts_Discography_Symphony-Cycle-Survey_Classical-Critic_Jens-f-Laurson_600.jpg) (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-survey-of-vaughan-williams-symphony.html)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 20, 2023, 08:09:50 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 20, 2023, 08:03:45 AMHello, my fellow fellows on the Veranda!

I have updated my Vaughan William Symphony Cycle Survey and wanted to share the joyous news!

Cheerio,

Jens


 A Survey of Vaughan Williams Symphony Cycles

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S4Q0Wst0nic/XA_HquEYihI/AAAAAAAAKqI/CfXy9Gb3zyUzVrO6pNkMBrVHi7AkbB4HgCLcBGAs/s1600/Ralph-Vaughan-Williams_ionarts_Discography_Symphony-Cycle-Survey_Classical-Critic_Jens-f-Laurson_600.jpg) (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-survey-of-vaughan-williams-symphony.html)


Always pleased to see RVW get attention but in this "update" you don't mention the new Pristine remastering of Boult I, the completion of Elder/Halle or Brabbins/BBC SO at all....!  Which rather gives the lie to your opening copmment that this survey covers every available set......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 20, 2023, 08:51:48 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 20, 2023, 08:09:50 AMAlways pleased to see RVW get attention but in this "update" you don't mention the new Pristine remastering of Boult I, the completion of Elder/Halle or Brabbins/BBC SO at all....!  Which rather gives the lie to your opening comment that this survey covers every available set......

I actively ignore Pristine. I think it's a BS label that makes old recordings sound terrible and they influence shill reviewers to do their bidding.

Elder & Brabbins had been mentioned but I've now edited it to point out that Elder HAS finished his cycle. (Still not out as a set, though.) And as far as Brabbins is concerned, is a disc of "7 & 9" still missing? Seems that way.

Thanks, certainly, for keeping the heat on me. I rely on such help to keep the motivation to really be thorough in my updates.

P.S. Ah, I see: Release Date: 3rd Mar 2023 Soon!!!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 20, 2023, 10:02:35 AM
QuoteI actively ignore Pristine. I think it's a BS label that makes old recordings sound terrible and they influence shill reviewers to do their bidding.

Elder & Brabbins had been mentioned but I've now edited it to point out that Elder HAS finished his cycle. (Still not out as a set, though.) And as far as Brabbins is concerned, is a disc of "7 & 9" still missing? Seems that way.

Thanks, certainly, for keeping the heat on me. I rely on such help to keep the motivation to really be thorough in my updates.

P.S. Ah, I see: Release Date: 3rd Mar 2023 Soon!!!

The Elder COMPLETE SET has had multiple reviews!  Surely the Pristine set should be acknowledged if your post claims to survey all iterations of complete cycles.  Even if only to balance the praise it has received elsewhere with your opinion.  To be honest I'm not keen at all on their approach either but it has certainly gnerated some very positive responses
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 20, 2023, 11:13:59 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on January 20, 2023, 09:45:16 AMPresto are listing this box of Elder's VW symphonies as available now:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMyOTAwMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NTE4MzMzNjZ9)



Bingbingbing. Jackpot! Thanks much.  ;D

Oh, just found one of the Elder-reviews; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrrABqNJBYE :-)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on January 20, 2023, 01:02:42 PM
You don't need Pristine because you've got Decca Eloquence's Boult Legacy set!
ASIN is B0BCX3R1R7
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41KqWn9JHOL._SY1000_DpWeblab_.jpg)

Which includes Job, Old King Cole, etc, as well as Arnold, Holst, etc.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 20, 2023, 01:07:50 PM
Quote from: JBS on January 20, 2023, 01:02:42 PMYou don't need Pristine because you've got Decca Eloquence's Boult Legacy set!
ASIN is B0BCX3R1R7
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41KqWn9JHOL._SY1000_DpWeblab_.jpg)

Which includes Job, Old King Cole, etc, as well as Arnold, Holst, etc.

Bit of a mix, but good to know. Will include that option in the survey.

Are they remastered, though? I can't find any info on that. (Not until now, anyway.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on January 20, 2023, 01:47:49 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 20, 2023, 01:07:50 PMBit of a mix, but good to know. Will include that option in the survey.

Are they remastered, though? I can't find any info on that. (Not until now, anyway.)

Apparently not, except for four tracks of Holst that were never released until they were included in this set. The track listings, copyright dates, recording data, and brochure credits refer only to the original LPs. But the sound is fairly good, so I'm surprised it's not a remastering.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 20, 2023, 02:00:29 PM
Quote from: JBS on January 20, 2023, 01:47:49 PMApparently not, except for four tracks of Holst that were never released until they were included in this set. The track listings, copyright dates, recording data, and brochure credits refer only to the original LPs. But the sound is fairly good, so I'm surprised it's not a remastering.

That's what I figured, after reading the Eloquence website's info. But it's good just to have it readily available again... although the old Decca set, which also includes the Everest 9th, is still readily enough available (https://amzn.to/3GWbJdp).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on January 20, 2023, 02:54:46 PM
I like the sound quality of the VW works that I have sampled (symphs 2,3,5, Job, Old King Cole) in the new Eloquence box. I bought the CDs of symphonies 6/9 and A Sea Symphony on Pristine but I found the sound rather shrill. I prefer that of the Eloquence set.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on January 20, 2023, 07:57:20 PM
I think sometimes Eloquence remasters things without advertising it. I have seen the booklets credit "remaster engineers" without specifying which discs or tracks were included in the work.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 03, 2023, 11:23:52 PM
On my return from work yesterday I tuned into a very interesting programme about the Viola on BBC Radio 3. It featured an especially interesting and rather moving discussion about Vaughan Williams's 'Flos Campi' which made me consider the work in a new light:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000sycs
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 04, 2023, 08:36:56 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 03, 2023, 11:23:52 PMOn my return from work yesterday I tuned into a very interesting programme about the Viola on BBC Radio 3. It featured an especially interesting and rather moving discussion about Vaughan Williams's 'Flos Campi' which made me consider the work in a new light:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000sycs

Thanks, Jeffrey. I greatly enjoyed this. It contrasts so sharply, too, with the anodyne vapidity of Boston's CRB
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 04, 2023, 10:54:25 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 04, 2023, 08:36:56 AMThanks, Jeffrey. I greatly enjoyed this. It contrasts so sharply, too, with the anodyne vapidity of Boston's CRB
I thought that you might be interested Karl. I shall listen to 'Flos Campi'with more insight now. I'm glad that you enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 14, 2023, 12:18:21 AM
A stunning performance of 8th Symphony by Charles Munch and Boston Symphony. Poor show that RCA didn't have the wherewithal to make a recording.

https://youtu.be/26Two4qjxmw
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 14, 2023, 02:16:42 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 14, 2023, 12:18:21 AMA stunning performance of 8th Symphony by Charles Munch and Boston Symphony. Poor show that RCA didn't have the wherewithal to make a recording.

https://youtu.be/26Two4qjxmw

Thanks for sharing that - No.8 is usually one of my least favourite of the RVW cycle but this is a tremendous performance and the actual sound is very good too.  What a discovery!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 14, 2023, 07:23:08 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 14, 2023, 02:16:42 AMThanks for sharing that - No.8 is usually one of my least favourite of the RVW cycle but this is a tremendous performance and the actual sound is very good too.  What a discovery!

Pleased you enjoyed it. Previn is my benchmark in the 8th but I thought Munch surpassed that. A second movement to die for!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 14, 2023, 08:58:59 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 14, 2023, 07:23:08 AMPleased you enjoyed it. Previn is my benchmark in the 8th but I thought Munch surpassed that. A second movement to die for!

The latest installment in the excellent SOMM/RVW live includes a Barbirolli 'live' No.8 with the Halle from 1964.  Even given all the "authority" that Barbirolli brings to this particular score the Halle are simply 2nd tier compared to the Boston players.  Given this is the score where (arguably) RVW 'plays' with instrumental textures more than any other symphony the quality of the playing is key so hard not to give the laurels to Munch/BSO......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 15, 2023, 01:33:08 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 14, 2023, 08:58:59 AMThe latest installment in the excellent SOMM/RVW live includes a Barbirolli 'live' No.8 with the Halle from 1964.  Even given all the "authority" that Barbirolli brings to this particular score the Halle are simply 2nd tier compared to the Boston players.  Given this is the score where (arguably) RVW 'plays' with instrumental textures more than any other symphony the quality of the playing is key so hard not to give the laurels to Munch/BSO......
Previn remains my favourite recording.
I have this (CD) if it's the same one that you mean:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on February 15, 2023, 01:28:44 PM
Thanks so much for posting that Munch performance, I also immensely enjoyed it. Not a conductor I associate with Vaughan Williams, but he shows an extraordinary affinity. Might have to find the CD (especially if the restored sound helps to make some of the finale's percussion clearer).

In other RVW listening this week, this is truly excellent:

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/nc/q2/rj9oqnzpiq2nc_600.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 15, 2023, 02:35:22 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 15, 2023, 01:28:44 PMThanks so much for posting that Munch performance, I also immensely enjoyed it. Not a conductor I associate with Vaughan Williams, but he shows an extraordinary affinity. Might have to find the CD (especially if the restored sound helps to make some of the finale's percussion clearer).

In other RVW listening this week, this is truly excellent:

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/nc/q2/rj9oqnzpiq2nc_600.jpg)
Nice! How's the Howells?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on February 15, 2023, 06:34:25 PM
Quote from: Karl Tirebiter Henning on February 15, 2023, 02:35:22 PMNice! How's the Howells?

This was my first experience with the Howells work and it was a complete delight! More abstract, more modern in its harmonies, with a strong dancelike character in the outer movements, it's actually a lot like an English version of Bartok's Divertimento. If you can imagine the idea that Bartok and Walton had a Frankensteinian brain-swapping procedure, or somesuch, that will create the right impression. I was thoroughly impressed with the craft and I also loved the performance, which is very vigorous, physical, and visceral. This whole album gives you a strong feeling of the muscular work of string playing. Plus: prominent bass lines throughout.

I will now eagerly seek out the recordings on Chandos (complete Howells string orchestra music) and Helios (paired with Piano Concerto No. 2 and Three Dances, neither of which I know).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Skogwald on February 19, 2023, 09:24:15 AM
Hey all, I'm only just getting into Vaughan Williams' music. I have been listening to the complete symphonies by Boult and have been especially drawn to symphonies 6 and 9.

I'm sure you have already discussed this several times over the previous 300+ pages but what do you consider amazing RVW recordings that I should get?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on February 19, 2023, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: Skogwald on February 19, 2023, 09:24:15 AMHey all, I'm only just getting into Vaughan Williams' music. I have been listening to the complete symphonies by Boult and have been especially drawn to symphonies 6 and 9.

I'm sure you have already discussed this several times over the previous 300+ pages but what do you consider amazing RVW recordings that I should get?
Hi, great to learn that you like the Ninth, which is often mentioned less than the others but one of RVW's finest. As for the recordings: you can't go wrong with any of the Bryden Thomson conducting, helped by a great Chandos sound as well. As for the other conductors: there are many really fine ones, I think the Previn cycle is most often mentioned.

And: great to see you here! :-)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 19, 2023, 04:58:00 PM
Quote from: Skogwald on February 19, 2023, 09:24:15 AMHey all, I'm only just getting into Vaughan Williams' music. I have been listening to the complete symphonies by Boult and have been especially drawn to symphonies 6 and 9.

I'm sure you have already discussed this several times over the previous 300+ pages but what do you consider amazing RVW recordings that I should get?

My favorite No. 9 is Previn/LSO.  I've probably heard all the releases of this symphony but find the Previn/LSO to be firing on all cylinders and like the best recordings, transcends the notes.  Others might have better audio quality or better single moments, but this performance is the best overall.   I haven't heard another version that is as close to "getting it".  Perhaps Adrian Boult. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 19, 2023, 11:53:33 PM
Quote from: Skogwald on February 19, 2023, 09:24:15 AMHey all, I'm only just getting into Vaughan Williams' music. I have been listening to the complete symphonies by Boult and have been especially drawn to symphonies 6 and 9.

I'm sure you have already discussed this several times over the previous 300+ pages but what do you consider amazing RVW recordings that I should get?
This set is inexpensive (8CDs) and contains a good cross section of his work (you'd only duplicate Symphony No.9). I'd also recommend 'Job'A Masque for Dancing' - there are many recordings.
Welcome to the forum:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 21, 2023, 12:44:41 PM
Been enjoying this book. I was amused to hear that VW took the score of The Wasps to Boult and Sir Hugh Allen in his early composing days. Boult and Allen sang the parts and VW accompanied them (badly) on the piano. At the end of the session Allen told VW to 'go and learn the piano'. V funny!

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2023, 09:53:42 AM
Today's thought experiment: a symphonic movement by a composer I do not normally pair with RVW, but pretend you don't see the name of the composer of this Andante moderato, and see if you, too, could imagine Vaughan Williams having written it:

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on February 26, 2023, 01:44:29 AM
Quote from: Karl Tirebiter Henning on February 25, 2023, 09:53:42 AMToday's thought experiment: a symphonic movement by a composer I do not normally pair with RVW, but pretend you don't see the name of the composer of this Andante moderato, and see if you, too, could imagine Vaughan Williams having written it:



It is the oboe that does it. ;) The strings at 6.30 is RVW. Impressive piece which I enjoyed.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on February 26, 2023, 05:47:13 AM
Quote from: Karl Tirebiter Henning on February 25, 2023, 09:53:42 AMToday's thought experiment: a symphonic movement by a composer I do not normally pair with RVW, but pretend you don't see the name of the composer of this Andante moderato, and see if you, too, could imagine Vaughan Williams having written it:



I hear it as anglophile.  It still sounds American because of some of the harmonic progressions but by a yank deeply in love with English pastoralism.  It's very beautiful and being written in 1947, makes sense that the shadow of RVW would loom large.  For example, I think this is a good example of something sounding American but invoking English moods and color.  From, John Williams' score to War Horse.  Not particularly RVW but very English from an American lens.

(Especially at 0:35 when the theme comes in.)

The reason why I think this has an Americanesque feel to it is because it's somewhere between English pastoralism and Americana.  I sometimes equate Americana to Copland (Appalachian Springs) but seems others really spell it out and it's an interesting cross pollination of styles. 

I think this is another gorgeous example of Americana (again John Williams) but don't know what in classical repitoire is closer to the spirit than this when Clarke leaves home.

https://youtu.be/g9rLC2O1JNk?t=36

That Clarke leaving home sequence is so gorgeous and so American (played by London Symphony) but there is such an achingly poignant and resolute quality, so perfect for the mom too.  She knows her son must leave, the moment she dreaded all her life has come.  She is heartbroken but trying to stay strong, just like the music.  I hear a lot of RVW in this but it's also Americana. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2023, 05:12:54 AM
I've been listening to the last installment of the Brabbins/BBC SO cycle on Hyperion - I wonder if this will be one of their last major projects before their sale to Universal?

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQxNDk2Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NzEwMTk5NjZ9)

Generally I have enjoyed this cycle - certainly well-played and sounding good (most of the time).  The same applies to this final disc too but overall I'm a bit underwhelmed.  Nothing to take offence at and all making good musical sense but little sense of discovery or wonder either.  Good centrist, British Orchestral Tradition performances of relatively familiar repertoire.  Perhaps its time for an American or German orchestra to give us a cycle?!?! (well I can wish can't I.......)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 01, 2023, 11:54:05 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2023, 05:12:54 AMI've been listening to the last installment of the Brabbins/BBC SO cycle on Hyperion - I wonder if this will be one of their last major projects before their sale to Universal?

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQxNDk2Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NzEwMTk5NjZ9)

Generally I have enjoyed this cycle - certainly well-played and sounding good (most of the time).  The same applies to this final disc too but overall I'm a bit underwhelmed.  Nothing to take offence at and all making good musical sense but little sense of discovery or wonder either.  Good centrist, British Orchestral Tradition performances of relatively familiar repertoire.  Perhaps its time for an American or German orchestra to give us a cycle?!?! (well I can wish can't I.......)
Didn't know about the Universal sale. I haven't received the new Hyperion CD yet. Hurwitz gave it a terrible review but I don't always trust his judgment.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 02, 2023, 01:40:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 01, 2023, 11:54:05 PMDidn't know about the Universal sale. I haven't received the new Hyperion CD yet. Hurwitz gave it a terrible review but I don't always trust his judgment.

It certainly is NOT terrible in any way shape or form.  That's just Hurwitz allowing his rational judgement to be overwhelmed by his distorted perception of self-gratified British critics and orchestras - something I have not encountered certainly in recent times.

Perhaps I'm like a spoilt child in a sweet shop - so much choice that now only something brightly coloured and shiny will do! (probably a toy shop....).  The thing is we have had so many genuinely fine RVW cycles and individual symphonies that it becomes hard to find something different/challenging but convincing.  Which is why I said about a continental or US orchestra doing a full cycle.  Apart from anything else it would prove that RVW is not 'just' an inward looking composer with nothing to say to the wider world.

One thing I really don't like on this new recording is the use of an "actual recording of wind" rather than the wind machine in Antartica.  Given its "real" it sounds strangely synthetic.  Also, RVW marks in the score quie carefully loudening/softening which they can only achieve by cranking up the volume on the desk.  This also lessens the effect of the off-stage female voices blending with the wind-machine - there is no blend.  Also, in a very odd choice the wind is left "blowing" for about 20 seconds after the orchestra/singers stop.  That is not in the score at all.  Producer Andrew Keener in fact did the same thing on the Slatkin recording albeit with a wind machine but followed the score precisely (everything finishing together) for Handley and the RLPO which is surely the right way to do it.  Not heard the Manze which he also produced so no idea what he did then.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 02, 2023, 10:21:28 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 02, 2023, 01:40:37 AMIt certainly is NOT terrible in any way shape or form.  That's just Hurwitz allowing his rational judgement to be overwhelmed by his distorted perception of self-gratified British critics and orchestras - something I have not encountered certainly in recent times.

Perhaps I'm like a spoilt child in a sweet shop - so much choice that now only something brightly coloured and shiny will do! (probably a toy shop....).  The thing is we have had so many genuinely fine RVW cycles and individual symphonies that it becomes hard to find something different/challenging but convincing.  Which is why I said about a continental or US orchestra doing a full cycle.  Apart from anything else it would prove that RVW is not 'just' an inward looking composer with nothing to say to the wider world.

One thing I really don't like on this new recording is the use of an "actual recording of wind" rather than the wind machine in Antartica.  Given its "real" it sounds strangely synthetic.  Also, RVW marks in the score quie carefully loudening/softening which they can only achieve by cranking up the volume on the desk.  This also lessens the effect of the off-stage female voices blending with the wind-machine - there is no blend.  Also, in a very odd choice the wind is left "blowing" for about 20 seconds after the orchestra/singers stop.  That is not in the score at all.  Producer Andrew Keener in fact did the same thing on the Slatkin recording albeit with a wind machine but followed the score precisely (everything finishing together) for Handley and the RLPO which is surely the right way to do it.  Not heard the Manze which he also produced so no idea what he did then.
Thanks for your characteristically thoughtful and considered view RS. I think that Hurwitz overpraises Slatkin's cycle (which I generally like) and rubbishes Haitink. We are spoilt for choice. I was brought up with Boult and my favourite 2,3 and 8 are conducted by Previn. Of more recent sets the Thomson rates highly for me (as does his Bax cycle). I think very highly of the Brabbins cycle so far.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2023, 11:41:17 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 02, 2023, 01:40:37 AMThat's just Hurwitz allowing his rational judgement to be overwhelmed
It's decades since I've read anything that Hurwitz has written, but I cannot say he's ever impressed me as a rational human being.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 02, 2023, 11:47:25 AM
Quote from: Karl Tirebiter Henning on March 02, 2023, 11:41:17 AMIt's decades since I've read anything that Hurwitz has written, but I cannot say he's ever impressed me as a rational human being.
Are any of us completely rational though when it comes to something that we're passionate about (like music)?  ;)  Hmmmm... just a thought.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2023, 11:53:17 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 02, 2023, 11:47:25 AMAre any of us completely rational though when it comes to something that we're passionate about (like music)?  ;)  Hmmmm... just a thought.

PD
That's a fair thought, but whatever passions may govern my musical likes and preferences, as a reviewer, I am expected to write as a rational adult.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on March 02, 2023, 01:04:56 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 02, 2023, 10:21:28 AMThanks for your characteristically thoughtful and considered view RS. I think that Hurwitz overpraises Slatkin's cycle (which I generally like) and rubbishes Haitink. We are spoilt for choice. I was brought up with Boult and my favourite 2,3 and 8 are conducted by Previn. Of more recent sets the Thomson rates highly for me (as does his Bax cycle). I think very highly of the Brabbins cycle so far.

Yes he makes it sound like Slatkin is by far the greatest, and Haitink is unlistenable.  But I like both along with the other cycles I've heard.  I don't think there is any top dog (not even Previn or Boult).  Just multiple sets with different approaches.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 02, 2023, 01:09:28 PM
Quote from: DavidW on March 02, 2023, 01:04:56 PMYes he makes it sound like Slatkin is by far the greatest, and Haitink is unlistenable.  But I like both along with the other cycles I've heard.  I don't think there is any top dog (not even Previn or Boult).  Just multiple sets with different approaches.
Largely agree David.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 02, 2023, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: DavidW on March 02, 2023, 01:04:56 PMYes he makes it sound like Slatkin is by far the greatest, and Haitink is unlistenable.  But I like both along with the other cycles I've heard.  I don't think there is any top dog (not even Previn or Boult).  Just multiple sets with different approaches.

Well put - simply put no single performance can ever be the final word on anything.  It might well be a personal "favourite" and that's fine but there is always 'another way'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 02, 2023, 02:04:29 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 02, 2023, 01:39:31 PMWell put - simply put no single performance can ever be the final word on anything.  It might well be a personal "favourite" and that's fine but there is always 'another way'.
OK, well here are my very favourites (at least for today)

A Sea Symphony (Haitink, Hurwitz would disapprove but this performance brought this work alive for me)
A London Symphony (Hickox - a must as it's the only recording of the original version from 1913) also Brabbins (1920 version) and Previn (1936 final version) Boult EMI/Warner is also magisterial here.
A Pastoral Symphony (Previn, LSO. Elder's best recording too)
No.4 Mitropolous (VW liked this one), Berglund. I find the VW version just rushed.
No.5 Vaughan Williams, Previn, Gibson, Barbirolli (EMI)
No. 6 Boult, LPO (Decca)
Antartica Boult LPO (Decca)
No.8 Previn
No.9 Boult (Everest), Boult (EMI) Stokowski (Cala) Slatkin, Thomson.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2023, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: DavidW on March 02, 2023, 01:04:56 PMYes he makes it sound like Slatkin is by far the greatest, and Haitink is unlistenable.  But I like both along with the other cycles I've heard.  I don't think there is any top dog (not even Previn or Boult).  Just multiple sets with different approaches.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on March 02, 2023, 03:32:35 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 02, 2023, 02:04:29 PMOK, well here are my very favourites (at least for today)

A Sea Symphony (Haitink, Hurwitz would disapprove but this performance brought this work alive for me)
A London Symphony (Hickox - a must as it's the only recording of the original version from 1913) also Brabbins (1920 version) and Previn (1936 final version) Boult EMI/Warner is also magisterial here.
A Pastoral Symphony (Previn, LSO. Elder's best recording too)
No.4 Mitropolous (VW liked this one), Berglund. I find the VW version just rushed.
No.5 Vaughan Williams, Previn, Gibson, Barbirolli (EMI)
No. 6 Boult, LPO (Decca)
Antartica Boult LPO (Decca)
No.8 Previn
No.9 Boult (Everest), Boult (EMI) Stokowski (Cala) Slatkin, Thomson.

Oh I feel the same about Haitink's Sea symphony!  I'll have to navigate through the ones on your list that I haven't heard such as the Mitropolous 4th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 02, 2023, 10:29:01 PM
Quote from: DavidW on March 02, 2023, 03:32:35 PMOh I feel the same about Haitink's Sea symphony!  I'll have to navigate through the ones on your list that I haven't heard such as the Mitropolous 4th.
It was a favourite of VW's. It was on an old Sony/CBS CD with Stokowski's recording of Symphony No.6 (which was actually the first recording of the work, beating Boult by a few days).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 03, 2023, 12:40:27 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 02, 2023, 01:40:37 AM... Also, in a very odd choice the wind is left "blowing" for about 20 seconds after the orchestra/singers stop.  That is not in the score at all.  Producer Andrew Keener in fact did the same thing on the Slatkin recording albeit with a wind machine but followed the score precisely (everything finishing together) for Handley and the RLPO which is surely the right way to do it.  Not heard the Manze which he also produced so no idea what he did then.

The percussionist goes for one last turn of the crank after the voices stop, in both cases very ppp.  Which I think is a very reasonable interpretation.  In any case I couldn't let the last few moments (of any musical performance) affect my enjoyment of the rest.  Time only flows one way.

Manze is my favourite recording (so far, not heard Brabbins yet) of my favourite RVW symphony - although the general sound balance is rather unusual, simultaneously rather recessed and yet highly detailed.  My ideal would be Thomson but that recording gets the organ balance hopelessly wrong.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 03, 2023, 01:17:40 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 02, 2023, 01:40:37 AMPerhaps I'm like a spoilt child in a sweet shop - so much choice that now only something brightly coloured and shiny will do! (probably a toy shop....).  The thing is we have had so many genuinely fine RVW cycles and individual symphonies that it becomes hard to find something different/challenging but convincing.  Which is why I said about a continental or US orchestra doing a full cycle.

Well just a reminder that Rozhdestvensky has recorded a complete cycle with one of those Soviet** orchestras with very long names (**just - rec 1989). 
US orchestras - the NYPO has already been mentioned, the 4th with Mitropoulos and 6th with Stokowski (a fine British conductor  ;) ) and they also recorded a searing 4th with Bernstein.  The Atlanta SO (cond. Spano) has recorded the Sea Symphony, the 4th and 5th at least, and other important pieces, not sure about any other symphonies.  The Oregon (cond. Kalmar) have recorded the 4th and a very fine (my favourite) 5th.  The US orchestras seem to go for the 4th.  Its a shame Slatkin didn't record his cycle with a US orchestra.
A recording I've not yet heard is Colin Davis conducting the Bayern RSO in the 6th.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 03, 2023, 03:31:09 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 03, 2023, 01:17:40 AMWell just a reminder that Rozhdestvensky has recorded a complete cycle with one of those Soviet** orchestras with very long names (**just - rec 1989). 
US orchestras - the NYPO has already been mentioned, the 4th with Mitropoulos and 6th with Stokowski (a fine British conductor  ;) ) and they also recorded a searing 4th with Bernstein.  The Atlanta SO (cond. Spano) has recorded the Sea Symphony, the 4th and 5th at least, and other important pieces, not sure about any other symphonies.  The Oregon (cond. Kalmar) have recorded the 4th and a very fine (my favourite) 5th.  The US orchestras seem to go for the 4th.  Its a shame Slatkin didn't record his cycle with a US orchestra.
A recording I've not yet heard is Colin Davis conducting the Bayern RSO in the 6th.

I have the Rohzdestvensky cycle - he was exactly the kind of conductor I would have loved to hear in a well-recorded cycle with a less - shall we say - "idiomatic" orchestra/choir/soloists.  I know all the other performances you mention too - Kalmar is good, Spano a little faceless.  One of my top Antarticas is Leppard in Indianapolis which is superbly played and recorded but a lot of people don't like the inclusion of EXTRA texts.  Abravanel's 6 in Utah is very fine except for a too loud finale, Christopher Seaman's "London" in Rochester is rather lovely too.  But I suppose I'm wishing for an unexpected orchestra/conductor complete cycle......  Why not Oramo in Stockholm on BIS.

BTW - the ending of Brabbins' Antartica is NOT a deal-breaker for me - I'm just bemused at the choice.  Apart from anything else it stops the blended effect of distanced ovies/wind machine that RVW so skillfully creates not just at the end of the work but elsewhere.  I did wonder if on the day of the session the wind machine broke down/sounded so rubbish they went to a post-production plan B!

I listened this morning to Brabbins' No.5 which is just lovely - perhaps the slightly reflective, measured style of that extraordinary work chimes more closely with Brabbins rather than the cinematic pictorialism of 7?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 03, 2023, 06:54:09 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 02, 2023, 10:29:01 PMIt was a favourite of VW's. It was on an old Sony/CBS CD with Stokowski's recording of Symphony No.6 (which was actually the first recording of the work, beating Boult by a few days).

sInteresting, Jeffrey! I don't think I noted before your preference of Mitropoulos. Perhaps it caught my eye, as I was listening to it not long ago, as I've wrapped up my review of the box. I'm with you and @DavidW on Haitink's Sea Symphony, the recording which sealed the deal for me, as well. Not that I have any quarrel with either Previn or Thomson, whose Sea Symphonies I've listened to more recently.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 03, 2023, 08:24:09 AM
I've been listening to the latest SOMM/RVW live set ;

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQyNTkzMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NzQ0OTIxNzV9)

It includes 2 Mitropoulos live performances including a Tallis from the 40's and the 2 piano concerto from the 50's.  I prefer this Tallis to his late 50's remake which is brilliantly played but just too impatient - what works in Symphony 4 fails in Tallis.  The Double Concerto is good but I'd stick with the same soloists in the studio on the recent Albion release;

(https://rvwsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/rvw-from-america-cover-500.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on March 03, 2023, 08:58:06 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 03, 2023, 03:31:09 AMBTW - the ending of Brabbins' Antartica is NOT a deal-breaker for me - I'm just bemused at the choice.  Apart from anything else it stops the blended effect of distanced ovies/wind machine that RVW so skillfully creates not just at the end of the work but elsewhere.  I did wonder if on the day of the session the wind machine broke down/sounded so rubbish they went to a post-production plan B!

I've listened to this new recording now - parts of it twice, 2nd time via headphones.  Well - I rather like the sound of the recorded wind BUT one is rather conscious of it being turned on and off like a tap, and it's difficult (for me) to avoid some discomfort at the un-HIP-ness of it all.  It also seems a tad high in the mix, likewise the soprano.  But a huge plus for me is the stereo recording of the wind - you would need 2 or even 3 spaced wind machines to get close to this spaceyness which sounds very right to me - which RVW did not specify of course.  So in all yes - a strange, and interesting, production choice.  If wanting to be 'different' I would have been interested to hear a synth used for the wind, or maybe a theramin (tuned to output pink noise rather than 'Good Vibrations' tone!).  A theramin has the same property as a wind machine - loudness and pitch are linked.
I don't for a moment believe that a good wind machine would have been hard to find - honestly, they must be ten a penny.

Elsewhere I felt the musiciams were not quite bringing their A game - one or two uncertainties in solo passages, more than one or two ragged ensemble entries - not at all what I am used to hearing from the BBC SO who are usually on par with the other top London orchestras.  I wondered if it was a lockdown recording but not really - March 2022 we were kinda coming out of it by then.  But they could have been still getting back up to speed I suppose.  Sound generally is pretty good, organ balance near-ideal.

Thankyou for reminding me of that Indianapolis/Leppard Antartica - that is a good one indeed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 04, 2023, 02:31:13 AM
Listening to Mitropolous's recording of the 4th symphony brought back a memory for me:
It's Thursday (I just checked this up) the 12th October 1972 (VW's 100th Birthday) and I'm in my last year at (High) school. It was quite a liberal school in many ways (we could wear our hair long). I had a musical appreciation lesson on that day and, in view of the importance of that date, I insisted that the music teacher played some Vaughan Williams (which he kindly agreed to) and from the school's library of LPs he fished out the 4th Symphony conducted by Boult on EMI/HMV (I prefer it to the earlier recording). That night I went to the 100th Anniversary in London to see Boult conduct the 8th Symphony and Job etc. It was a memorable day for my 17 year old self:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 05, 2023, 12:44:59 PM
It doesn't occur to me as often as it might, to do comparative listening. When I made my way through the Bernstein Symphony edition, I certainly remembered enjoying his recording of the Fourth Symphony. After recently listening to Mitropoulos' 1956 recording, (and thinking that Bernstein benefited to some degree from its having been in the orchestra's folder, so to speak) I wanted to revisit the Bernstein account. During the second movement I found myself thinking, it isn't my imagination that this feels broader? And it wasn't:

i. AllegroLento | Mitropoulos 7.49 | Bernstein 9.17
ii. Andante moderato | Mitropoulos 9.49 | Bernstein 10.24
iii. Scherzo. Allegro molto | Mitropoulos 5.39 | Bernstein 5.33
iv. Finale con epilogo fugato. Allegro moltoCon anima | Mitropoulos 8.01 | Bernstein 8.33

I don't say that there is any excessive breadth in the Bernstein, only that one is aware of it as a distinct reading. A little tickled, too, that he shaved a "hair bit" (as they say in Tennessee) off Mitropoulos' timing in the Scherzo.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Skogwald on March 06, 2023, 01:30:21 AM
This is now officially my favorite RVW disc! Somehow the ninth symphony has a mystery to it that draws me in more than the others. Thomson's recording is the most powerful out of the handful I've heard. Plus, it's paired with the Piano Concerto, which I consider an incredible, underrated piece.

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH8941.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 06, 2023, 05:55:17 AM
Quote from: Skogwald on March 06, 2023, 01:30:21 AMThis is now officially my favorite RVW disc! Somehow the ninth symphony has a mystery to it that draws me in more than the others. Thomson's recording is the most powerful out of the handful I've heard. Plus, it's paired with the Piano Concerto, which I consider an incredible, underrated piece.

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH8941.jpg)

I love this symphony and concerto.  Will have to revisit this recording since I preferred Previn's and recall this not knocking that one off its pedestal, but tastes change with time so worth revisiting. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 14, 2023, 05:16:02 AM
Any comments on this?
(https://onyxclassics.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Onyx_ONYX4225_RLPO_Manze_Vaughan-Williams_Digital_02A_3000px-scaled.jpg)
https://onyxclassics.com/release/vaughan-williams-job-a-masque-for-dancing/ (https://onyxclassics.com/release/vaughan-williams-job-a-masque-for-dancing/)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Wanderer on March 14, 2023, 07:38:33 AM
Quote from: Skogwald on March 06, 2023, 01:30:21 AMThis is now officially my favorite RVW disc! Somehow the ninth symphony has a mystery to it that draws me in more than the others. Thomson's recording is the most powerful out of the handful I've heard. Plus, it's paired with the Piano Concerto, which I consider an incredible, underrated piece.

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH8941.jpg)
Very glad you discovered this! This is my favourite version of Vaughan Williams' Ninth, a beloved work. In the piano concerto, also a favourite work, I like the Shelley version with RPO/Handley better; but this is still good. And the mesmerising Turner covers of the whole Chandos Vaughan Williams symphonic series adds just an extra degree of awesomeness to the whole project. Beauty Farm, in particular, should fire their cover designers and take note.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on March 14, 2023, 12:49:59 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 14, 2023, 05:16:02 AMAny comments on this?
(https://onyxclassics.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Onyx_ONYX4225_RLPO_Manze_Vaughan-Williams_Digital_02A_3000px-scaled.jpg)
https://onyxclassics.com/release/vaughan-williams-job-a-masque-for-dancing/ (https://onyxclassics.com/release/vaughan-williams-job-a-masque-for-dancing/)

Probably not a very useful one, but I have very much enjoyed every Manze RVW that I've heard, possibly because I have gone to hear him conduct a LOT, being just up the road from where I live, during his RLPO tenure. I think I may have been present for this recording. I certainly heard Job under him and enjoyed.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on March 17, 2023, 03:42:15 PM
Any recommendations for a good biography or "life and works" monograph on RVW? I expect there must be at least a few out there. I am sorry if the question has already been posed and answered recently, this thread is too long for me to dig through.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 18, 2023, 03:58:21 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 17, 2023, 03:42:15 PMAny recommendations for a good biography or "life and works" monograph on RVW? I expect there must be at least a few out there. I am sorry if the question has already been posed and answered recently, this thread is too long for me to dig through.
I've referred to this book a number of times.  It's by Michael Kennedy:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/uSsAAOSwFUti3wvq/s-l500.jpg)

I ordered my copy directly from Oxford University Press here in the US.  It wasn't terribly expensive.

PD

p.s.  I'll let @vandermolen tell you more about who MK was.  :)

EDIT:  Just looked at their website; it's gone up quite a bit since I purchased.  I did find a copy on e-bay  in the 30's though.  Here's the link to OUP:

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-works-of-ralph-vaughan-williams-9780198163305?cc=us&lang=en&
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 18, 2023, 06:36:57 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 18, 2023, 03:58:21 AMI've referred to this book a number of times.  It's by Michael Kennedy:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/uSsAAOSwFUti3wvq/s-l500.jpg)

I ordered my copy directly from Oxford University Press here in the US.  It wasn't terribly expensive.

PD

p.s.  I'll let Jeffrey tell you more about who MK was.  :)

EDIT:  Just looked at their website; it's gone up quite a bit since I purchased.  I did find a copy on e-bay  in the 30's though.  Here's the link to OUP:

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-works-of-ralph-vaughan-williams-9780198163305?cc=us&lang=en&

A fine biography and survey of the works.  Ursula VW's books are good too but must be read with the understanding that she is probably not completely objective!  The new Eric Saylor biog in the Master Musicians series has had good reviews - I wouldn't know - the copy I ordered never arrived.......!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Christo on March 18, 2023, 06:58:26 AM
Quote from: Skogwald on March 06, 2023, 01:30:21 AMThis is now officially my favorite RVW disc! Somehow the ninth symphony has a mystery to it that draws me in more than the others. Thomson's recording is the most powerful out of the handful I've heard. Plus, it's paired with the Piano Concerto, which I consider an incredible, underrated piece.

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH8941.jpg)
Fully agree, one of my favourites, too!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on March 18, 2023, 07:00:36 AM
I have that disc too, and it is stunning. I also love Bryden Thomson's recording of the London, which was the one which finally made that symphony click for me.

@RS & @PD thank you for the recs! I also noticed this recent bio:

https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williams-Composer-Radical-Biography/dp/071983001X

Has anyone read it? Apparently it's more biographical than musicological, but appears interesting nonetheless.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 18, 2023, 07:30:46 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 18, 2023, 03:58:21 AMI've referred to this book a number of times.  It's by Michael Kennedy:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/uSsAAOSwFUti3wvq/s-l500.jpg)

I ordered my copy directly from Oxford University Press here in the US.  It wasn't terribly expensive.

PD

p.s.  I'll let Jeffrey tell you more about who MK was.  :)

EDIT:  Just looked at their website; it's gone up quite a bit since I purchased.  I did find a copy on e-bay  in the 30's though.  Here's the link to OUP:

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-works-of-ralph-vaughan-williams-9780198163305?cc=us&lang=en&
I read that (a little strange to relate) while in Petersburg, borrowed from the British Consulate library.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 18, 2023, 10:34:05 AM
Quote from: Skogwald on March 06, 2023, 01:30:21 AMThis is now officially my favorite RVW disc! Somehow the ninth symphony has a mystery to it that draws me in more than the others. Thomson's recording is the most powerful out of the handful I've heard. Plus, it's paired with the Piano Concerto, which I consider an incredible, underrated piece.

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH8941.jpg)
Totally agree!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 18, 2023, 10:42:42 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 17, 2023, 03:42:15 PMAny recommendations for a good biography or "life and works" monograph on RVW? I expect there must be at least a few out there. I am sorry if the question has already been posed and answered recently, this thread is too long for me to dig through.
I like this new biography - a good modern overview.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on March 18, 2023, 11:38:22 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 18, 2023, 10:42:42 AMI like this new biography - a good modern overview.
Thanks, Jeffrey, it's long enough since I  read the Kennedy, and I now know so much more of the music, that it's time I read a bio afresh.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 19, 2023, 05:44:00 AM
Dona Nobis Pacem has been well-served on disc. I do not know of a 'bad' recording. Do you have a favourite version and if so why?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on March 19, 2023, 06:15:09 AM
For Dona Nobis Pacem, I've never had a reason to look further than the Boult/EMI recording from ( l think ) 1974.

As for the " why ", it just doesn't seem to have any weaknesses. Both soloists are solid, the LPO seem to be in top form and Boult's take on the score seems both sensible and sincere. EMI's recording is likewise well-balanced and delivers a realistic soundstage, without calling undue attention to itself.

Any time committed performers of worthy music are afforded a faithful record of the proceedings, the result will be special; so it is here.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: VonStupp on March 19, 2023, 06:48:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 19, 2023, 05:44:00 AMDona Nobis Pacem has been well-served on disc. I do not know of a 'bad' recording. Do you have a favourite version and if so why?

I have recently been turned towards Hickox's outing. He goes against the grain by choosing broad tempos for the middle movements, some almost dangerously slow, but the outcome is thrilling.

Haven't heard Litton's on Hyperion, but I think I would be more interested in hearing the Stephen Hough Mass than their traversal of Dona.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 19, 2023, 06:52:16 AM
Quote from: VonStupp on March 19, 2023, 06:48:55 AMI have recently been turned towards Hickox's outing. He goes against the grain by choosing broad tempos for the middle movements, some almost dangerously slow, but the outcome is thrilling.

Haven't heard Litton's on Hyperion, but I think I would be more interested in hearing the Stephen Hough Mass than their traversal of Dona.
Thanks v much VS!
I must listen to Hickox again. I really enjoyed the Litton recording on Hyperion although, sorry to say, I did not like the accompanying work by Stephen Hough.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: VonStupp on March 19, 2023, 06:53:34 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 19, 2023, 06:52:16 AMThanks v much VS!
I must listen to Hickox again. I really enjoyed the Litton recording on Hyperion although, sorry to say, I did not like the accompanying work by Stephen Hough.
Interesting, I will keep that in mind.
VS
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 19, 2023, 07:06:12 AM
About Dona nobis pacem, I agree Boult/LPO is awesome; it's a mighty, profound and beautifully touching, and the singers are powerful and moving too; a superbly crafted recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on March 19, 2023, 08:05:22 AM
DNP is one of my favorite RVW works and I have two recordings. The first I ever got was Robert Spano and the Atlanta Symphony, and I may be biased because that's the home team, but it sounds excellent to me. Spano was a big fan of RVW and programmed his works a lot during his directorship here which ended last year. The other I have is Hickox in London which I remember being quite a bit slower, but also very good.

@Ilaria, I must hear the Boult, is this it?

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4xkAAOSwUOJeTe9a/s-l500.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 19, 2023, 08:17:04 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 19, 2023, 08:05:22 AMDNP is one of my favorite RVW works and I have two recordings. The first I ever got was Robert Spano and the Atlanta Symphony, and I may be biased because that's the home team, but it sounds excellent to me. Spano was a big fan of RVW and programmed his works a lot during his directorship here which ended last year. The other I have is Hickox in London which I remember being quite a bit slower, but also very good.

@Ilaria, I must hear the Boult, is this it?

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4xkAAOSwUOJeTe9a/s-l500.jpg)
@vers la flamme You should definitely have a listen to it, I'm sure you'll like Boult! 😊
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 19, 2023, 02:47:46 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 19, 2023, 08:05:22 AMDNP is one of my favorite RVW works and I have two recordings. The first I ever got was Robert Spano and the Atlanta Symphony, and I may be biased because that's the home team, but it sounds excellent to me. Spano was a big fan of RVW and programmed his works a lot during his directorship here which ended last year. The other I have is Hickox in London which I remember being quite a bit slower, but also very good.

@Ilaria, I must hear the Boult, is this it?

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4xkAAOSwUOJeTe9a/s-l500.jpg)
The Spano is very good and that nice compilation on EMI/Warner does feature Boult's excellent DNP.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 19, 2023, 02:52:04 PM
I still have a soft spot for this fine old recording of both works:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 19, 2023, 04:32:10 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 19, 2023, 05:44:00 AMDona Nobis Pacem has been well-served on disc. I do not know of a 'bad' recording. Do you have a favourite version and if so why?
My favorite is Hickox/LSO.  It's so deeply moving, the most prominent organ, and highlights the clashing harmonies so well plus excellent soloists.  It's the best I've heard.  A balance between nostalgia, tragedy and feeling...the essence of his poetry, just like Walt Whitman. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 20, 2023, 12:56:46 AM
Currently enjoying this fine version of DNP.
The Stephen Hough work impressed me more than on previous occasions:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 20, 2023, 02:28:02 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 18, 2023, 10:42:42 AMI like this new biography - a good modern overview.
Do you think that it sheds a lot of/some light on him?  I had started to read a scholarly review on it, but alas one can only read so much without being a member.  I did catch that there are some new things that are now available (perhaps letters) which weren't available before now.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 21, 2023, 01:43:51 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 20, 2023, 02:28:02 PMDo you think that it sheds a lot of/some light on him?  I had started to read a scholarly review on it, but alas one can only read so much without being a member.  I did catch that there are some new things that are now available (perhaps letters) which weren't available before now.

PD
It deals with VW's relationship with Ursula, for example, before Adeline's death which was largely avoided in the 'court biographies' by Ursula and Michael Kennedy. It tells us more about Adeline as well. I thought that it was a good overview but then so was the earlier biography by James Day.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 21, 2023, 05:37:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 21, 2023, 01:43:51 AMIt deals with VW's relationship with Ursula, for example, before Adeline's death which was largely avoided in the 'court biographies' by Ursula and Michael Kennedy. It tells us more about Adeline as well. I thought that it was a good overview but then so was the earlier biography by James Day.
Thanks for the information. :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Papy Oli on March 24, 2023, 08:45:38 AM
Release 19/05 according to Presto.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQ2NjAzOC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2Nzg3MjEwOTl9)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on April 19, 2023, 05:38:32 AM
Staggering how much the original 1913 version of A London Symphony is prophetic of the sound world of Bax's symphonies 20 years later.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 19, 2023, 07:19:57 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 24, 2023, 08:45:38 AMRelease 19/05 according to Presto.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQ2NjAzOC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2Nzg3MjEwOTl9)

I've heard this and it is tremendous!!  Alessandro Fisher has a real italianate "ring" to his voice which you don't often associate with this repertoire and he sings with passion and conviction.  The Venables cycle is a worthy coupling and the Farringdon arrangement of the Four Hymns a gem and fine addition to the voice & quintet repertoire.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 19, 2023, 11:58:39 AM
New release (much cheaper in the UK at least through the Dutton Vocalion website rather than via Amazon)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2023, 08:54:09 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on April 19, 2023, 05:38:32 AMStaggering how much the original 1913 version of A London Symphony is prophetic of the sound world of Bax's symphonies 20 years later.
Interesting point! I agree.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 20, 2023, 04:25:54 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on April 19, 2023, 05:38:32 AMStaggering how much the original 1913 version of A London Symphony is prophetic of the sound world of Bax's symphonies 20 years later.

Not so much to me.  Perhaps you can give more specifics.  Exactly what Bax are you referring to and how is that similar to 1913 London Symphony?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 20, 2023, 10:45:47 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 20, 2023, 04:25:54 PMNot so much to me.  Perhaps you can give more specifics.  Exactly what Bax are you referring to and how is that similar to 1913 London Symphony?

You beat me to exactly this comment!  Perhaps they share a bit of brooding atmosphere but in my book of musical definitons that's hardly a "staggering similarity"
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on April 21, 2023, 12:32:15 AM
But it was 20 years between A London Symphony and the majority of Bax's symphonies where his own soundworld became established, that's the staggering thing! Listen to the section about two-thirds of the way through the Nocturne 3rd movement that was removed from the later version we hear more often. That's extraordinarily Baxian! And I said exactly what Bax I was referring to in the initial post.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 21, 2023, 01:48:41 AM
QuoteStaggering how much the original 1913 version of A London Symphony is prophetic of the sound world of Bax's symphonies 20 years later.

Here's what Lewis Foreman writes about the relationship between RVW/Bax and the London Symphony.  Interesting in that RVW never returned to the Symphonic Epilogue again (the last movement of No.7 although called "epilogue" is not one in the sense of being the coda to a movement).  Also interesting that the self-depecating RVW suggests that his music sounds like Bax rather than the other way around!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Vepey21hdujxsovr_O82opU3m0CJbbQg/view?usp=share_link
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on April 21, 2023, 05:58:29 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 20, 2023, 10:45:47 PMYou beat me to exactly this comment!  Perhaps they share a bit of brooding atmosphere but in my book of musical definitons that's hardly a "staggering similarity"

Maybe because this followed after I listened to the 'London' but I did note a similarity in the opening.

https://youtu.be/ITwXJz-LqpM
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 21, 2023, 09:30:24 AM
I think that the 2 minutes before the Epilogue in the original version of A London Symphony has a much more emotional quality than is usual with Vaughan Williams, which is probably why he jettisoned it in 1936, whilst in thrall to Sibelius (saying that it was 'horrible modern music' and 'like a bad hymn'). A big mistake in my view as it's my favourite part of the Symphony (Richard Hickox's too). It doesn't sound especially like Bax but has a kind-of Baxian feel to it. VW's music is usually more objective but he wears his heart on his sleeve here (IMO of course).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 22, 2023, 05:16:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 21, 2023, 09:30:24 AMI think that the 2 minutes before the Epilogue in the original version of A London Symphony has a much more emotional quality than is usual with Vaughan Williams, which is probably why he jettisoned it in 1936, whilst in thrall to Sibelius (saying that it was 'horrible modern music' and 'like a bad hymn'). A big mistake in my view as it's my favourite part of the Symphony (Richard Hickox's too). It doesn't sound especially like Bax but has a kind-of Baxian feel to it. VW's music is usually more objective but he wears his heart on his sleeve here (IMO of course).

Hmm, I forgot this moment so will have to revisit that recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 22, 2023, 11:14:51 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 22, 2023, 05:16:07 AMHmm, I forgot this moment so will have to revisit that recording.
There are now several recordings of the 1920 edition as well as Hickox's 1913 version. They all feature the magical section before the Epilogue.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on April 22, 2023, 01:11:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 22, 2023, 11:14:51 AMThere are now several recordings of the 1920 edition as well as Hickox's 1913 version. They all feature the magical section before the Epilogue.
At last! I've heard it. Yes, an exquisite passage! And a lesson not to cut anything so lovely.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on April 22, 2023, 05:39:59 PM
Having just listened to Hickox conducting the original 1913 version of Vaughan Williams' Symphony No. 2, I believe this was the superior version.  Why did he doubt himself so much?  This is wonderful and I prefer that the original version took more time with transitions which is what he excised.  None of the cuts really added to the work however I can understand why he decided to cut out 39:04 to 41:22 or so, roughly over two minutes:, it is gorgeous but one can argue superfluous and indulgent.  To me, I don't mind that at all.  He links it thematically with thorns to justify it but I can understand that sequence is borderline.  He was very, very picky to remove this sequence. 
I also just had a revelation that RVW fingerprint is the flat six.  That is the recurring motify during the Symphony No. 2 but also the opening crunch of No. 4, Santa Civitas, Symphony No. 7 and 9. This is his recurring fate motif and his mystical chord.  It is also very prominent in mystical music such as SCI-FI and fantasy.  For example, compare the first two notes of Lord of the Rings "rings theme"
The Lord of the Rings - The One Ring Theme (extended) - YouTube
With RVW Symphony No. 2 last movement: https://youtu.be/XqZdaiXRZ7k?t=2686
And https://youtu.be/XqZdaiXRZ7k?t=3424 is a perfect sci-fi trope with a mediant progression.  This is absolutely fascining because by 1913, it precedes Holst's Planets (1914-7) doing the very same thing at a slow tempo https://youtu.be/MO5sB56rfzA?t=382.   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Albion on April 22, 2023, 07:21:15 PM
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 22, 2023, 01:11:26 PMAt last! I've heard it. Yes, an exquisite passage! And a lesson not to cut anything so lovely.

The 1913 is also my favourite version of the "London", alright it's not as taut as the final revision but why lose so much wonderful music? I think that Hickox's recording is excellent in spite of what some critics have said about the whole "digging up the dead" concept and the recorded sound - in both cases I have no problems...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on April 22, 2023, 11:03:22 PM
Since I got the 1913 version about 10 years ago, I don't think I've ever listened to the "standard" version of A London Symphony. I can't hear it any other way. Important parts are missing otherwise.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 23, 2023, 12:14:34 AM
Interesting discussions. From my point of view I think that the rambling nature of the 1913 version perfectly fitted the sprawling nature of the city which it depicts in music. Sibelius was at the height of his popularity in Britain in the 1930s which I suspect influenced VW in his decision to make those final cuts. Bax, Boult and Bernard Herrmann argued with him about the wisdom of doing so and I think they were right. But, I'm no musician of course.

Karl what did you think of the Butterworth?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 23, 2023, 12:16:42 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on April 22, 2023, 11:03:22 PMSince I got the 1913 version about 10 years ago, I don't think I've ever listened to the "standard" version of A London Symphony. I can't hear it any other way. Important parts are missing otherwise.
Totally agree
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on April 23, 2023, 03:47:02 AM
I've been critical of Pristine Audio before but I think that they've done an excellent job of remastering Goossens's 1941 Cincinnati recording of A London Symphony (1920). When this was issued many years ago on the Biddulph label it was the first time since the 1930s that most people had ever heard some of the music which VW later excised. Listening to it this morning I was surprised at my emotional reaction to the opening - it was like being transported back 50 years to my first discovery of this work (Boult's EMI LP) in my parent's flat in Earl's Court, London:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on April 23, 2023, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: Albion on April 22, 2023, 07:21:15 PMThe 1913 is also my favourite version of the "London", alright it's not as taut as the final revision but why lose so much wonderful music? I think that Hickox's recording is excellent in spite of what some critics have said about the whole "digging up the dead" concept and the recorded sound - in both cases I have no problems...

1913 Hickox. My favourite by some distance also. My first choice whenever I look for RVW 2.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 04, 2023, 04:47:48 PM
I really liked this.  Moody and atmospheric.  What do others think? 

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 04, 2023, 11:16:25 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 04, 2023, 04:47:48 PMI really liked this.  Moody and atmospheric.  What do others think? 

At work but I'll try to listen later.
That concert was on Vaughan Williams's 105th birthday.
Boult's objective approach really suits Sinfonia Antartica - his Decca recording with VW in attendance is possibly my favourite version. The later (EMI) recording is very strong although it doesn't have quite the same urgency.

I wonder what other people's favourite recording of Sinfonia Antartica is.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on May 05, 2023, 06:50:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 04, 2023, 11:16:25 PMAt work but I'll try to listen later.
That concert was on Vaughan Williams's 105th birthday.
Boult's objective approach really suits Sinfonia Antartica - his Decca recording with VW in attendance is possibly my favourite version. The later (EMI) recording is very strong although it doesn't have quite the same urgency.

I wonder what other people's favourite recording of Sinfonia Antartica is.

I run a mile from spoken introductions which sadly rules out very good and likely best recordings of Sinfonia Antartica. I agree the Boult EMI is good (how can it not be). The one recording, although mono, that hits the spot which I actually felt shivers listening, no exaggeration, is Barbirolli.

(https://i.imgur.com/2KHn0NQ.jpg)

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: aukhawk on May 06, 2023, 01:00:20 AM
I'm lucky in that the spoken bits don't bother me at all - although some of the more pompous deliveries can be a bit farcical I agree.  I'm much more fussy when it comes to the organ contribution and specifically the way it is balanced against the orchestra.  Thus I would really like to put Bryden Thomson at the top of my list but unfortunately he is ruled out because of some unfortunate choices made around the organ.  (It is small-scale and distant, like some unattainable mirage in the snowscape.)  My favourite is Andrew Manze, a good modern recording and ideal organ contribution.

That live Boult recording (I'm playing it as I type this) sounds pretty good - on my laptop, I must tranfer a copy to my main rig.  It's unusual of course to hear the organ (presumably) live, not dubbed as in almost all non-live recordings.  The balance sounds better than Haitink's live recording in the same venue, where the same  organ sounds monstrous.

Ah - great wind machine work at the end, finally sinking down to leave the choir diminuendo to finish us off.  Nicely done.

Blimey - according to the back-anno they went on to perform the Sea Symphony after the interval!  What a marathon. (Different conductor though.)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 06, 2023, 05:40:59 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 06, 2023, 01:00:20 AMI'm lucky in that the spoken bits don't bother me at all - although some of the more pompous deliveries can be a bit farcical I agree.  I'm much more fussy when it comes to the organ contribution and specifically the way it is balanced against the orchestra.  Thus I would really like to put Bryden Thomson at the top of my list but unfortunately he is ruled out because of some unfortunate choices made around the organ.  (It is small-scale and distant, like some unattainable mirage in the snowscape.)  My favourite is Andrew Manze, a good modern recording and ideal organ contribution.

That live Boult recording (I'm playing it as I type this) sounds pretty good - on my laptop, I must tranfer a copy to my main rig.  It's unusual of course to hear the organ (presumably) live, not dubbed as in almost all non-live recordings.  The balance sounds better than Haitink's live recording in the same venue, where the same  organ sounds monstrous.

Ah - great wind machine work at the end, finally sinking down to leave the choir diminuendo to finish us off.  Nicely done.

Blimey - according to the back-anno they went on to perform the Sea Symphony after the interval!  What a marathon. (Different conductor though.)

Wow, that's crazy stamina considering this was Boult's last concert!  I guess one of the advantages he had of always looking the same age is he never aged.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Abdel Ove Allhan on May 09, 2023, 08:38:24 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 04, 2023, 04:47:48 PMI really liked this.  Moody and atmospheric.  What do others think? 

I was there. Me and 2 mates were tramping through the British Isles and while in London we attended this performance. I had no Idea it was his last. As I recall it was a very warm day and RVW's chilly landscape was a delicious if ominous respite. Thank you for posting a slice of my youth.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mountain Goat on May 09, 2023, 02:29:15 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 06, 2023, 01:00:20 AMBlimey - according to the back-anno they went on to perform the Sea Symphony after the interval!  What a marathon.

Wow! That must have been quite a night. One of the most memorable concerts I ever attended was Andrew Manze and the BBC Scottish SO in symphonies 4, 5 & 6 at the 2012 Proms.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on May 09, 2023, 04:39:46 PM
Quote from: Abdel Ove Allhan on May 09, 2023, 08:38:24 AMI was there. Me and 2 mates were tramping through the British Isles and while in London we attended this performance. I had no Idea it was his last. As I recall it was a very warm day and RVW's chilly landscape was a delicious if ominous respite. Thank you for posting a slice of my youth.

That's amazing!  By the way, where in CA are you?  PM me if too personal.  I'm CA too.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: foxandpeng on May 10, 2023, 08:02:50 AM
Quote from: Mountain Goat on May 09, 2023, 02:29:15 PMWow! That must have been quite a night. One of the most memorable concerts I ever attended was Andrew Manze and the BBC Scottish SO in symphonies 4, 5 & 6 at the 2012 Proms.

Here we are again :). I am a fan of Manze in RVW, but am a bit of a lone wolf in that regard, I think...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 10, 2023, 10:00:44 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on May 10, 2023, 08:02:50 AMHere we are again :). I am a fan of Manze in RVW, but am a bit of a lone wolf in that regard, I think...

I saw Manze do No.9 at the RFH last Autumn.  Very good indeed - concert included a DREADFUL "Lark" but that was down to the soloist not Manze!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2023, 10:44:20 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on May 10, 2023, 08:02:50 AMHere we are again :). I am a fan of Manze in RVW, but am a bit of a lone wolf in that regard, I think...
Have just pre-ordered Job and Old King Cole. I liked 7 and 9 but not the others.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Luke on May 10, 2023, 10:45:37 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 10, 2023, 10:00:44 AMI saw Manze do No.9 at the RFH last Autumn.  Very good indeed - concert included a DREADFUL "Lark" but that was down to the soloist not Manze!

Avian flu?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 10, 2023, 10:57:55 AM
Quote from: Luke on May 10, 2023, 10:45:37 AMAvian flu?

mannered and interventionist.  The "don't look at me I'm shy" school of violin playing.  Just awful......
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on May 10, 2023, 01:28:14 PM
Quote from: Luke on May 10, 2023, 10:45:37 AMAvian flu?
Booo!  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 10, 2023, 10:34:18 PM
Should "The Lark Ascending" be used as the theme song for the Clay Pigeon Shooting Association......???
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Abdel Ove Allhan on May 18, 2023, 09:00:50 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 09, 2023, 04:39:46 PMThat's amazing!  By the way, where in CA are you?  PM me if too personal.  I'm CA too.
I reside in the confines of Orange in the Old Town district.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on May 20, 2023, 09:02:08 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 09, 2023, 04:39:46 PMThat's amazing!  By the way, where in CA are you?  PM me if too personal.  I'm CA too.

As am l. I will be on vacation soon, and while l wasn't planning on traveling I'm happy to do so for some quality discussions of RVW, if anyone is interested.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 17, 2023, 11:28:53 PM
Memory from 35 years ago. In a record shop I saw a recording of the Tallis Fantasia (coupled with works by other composers) conducted by Herbert von Karajan!

Even at the time, when I knew little about music and conductors, I thought this was a bizarre recording. Does anyone remember this one? Was it any good? Did Karajan record any other VW?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 18, 2023, 02:12:03 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 17, 2023, 11:28:53 PMMemory from 35 years ago. In a record shop I saw a recording of the Tallis Fantasia (coupled with works by other composers) conducted by Herbert von Karajan!

Even at the time, when I knew little about music and conductors, I thought this was a bizarre recording. Does anyone remember this one? Was it any good? Did Karajan record any other VW?
I have a recording of Vaughan Williams' Tallis Fantasia by Karajan/Philharmonia, it is matched with Britten's Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge; I was quite surprised when I discovered Karajan had conducted those composers, since he rarely ventured into English music; as a matter of fact, I don't think he recorded any other RVW, but it would have been thrilling. Provably I would be the minority, but I've always found that a beautifully poetical recording, suggestive and lyrical.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2023, 02:46:15 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 18, 2023, 02:12:03 AMI have a recording of Vaughan Williams' Tallis Fantasia by Karajan/Philharmonia, it is matched with Britten's Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge; I was quite surprised when I discovered Karajan had conducted those composers, since he rarely ventured into English music; as a matter of fact, I don't think he recorded any other RVW, but it would have been thrilling. Provably I would be the minority, but I've always found that a beautifully poetical recording, suggestive and lyrical.
I see some mono pressings here:  https://www.discogs.com/master/999868-Benjamin-Britten-Vaughan-Williams-Herbert-von-Karajan-Philharmonia-Orchestra-Variations-On-A-Theme-O  Does one of them look familiar?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 18, 2023, 02:59:02 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2023, 02:46:15 AMI see some mono pressings here:  https://www.discogs.com/master/999868-Benjamin-Britten-Vaughan-Williams-Herbert-von-Karajan-Philharmonia-Orchestra-Variations-On-A-Theme-O  Does one of them look familiar?

PD
Yes, that's the recording I was referring to; mine is the remastered version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 18, 2023, 03:23:53 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 18, 2023, 02:12:03 AMI have a recording of Vaughan Williams' Tallis Fantasia by Karajan/Philharmonia, it is matched with Britten's Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge; I was quite surprised when I discovered Karajan had conducted those composers, since he rarely ventured into English music; as a matter of fact, I don't think he recorded any other RVW, but it would have been thrilling. Provably I would be the minority, but I've always found that a beautifully poetical recording, suggestive and lyrical.

Karajan obviously liked to perform Fantasia.

 http://www.karajan.co.uk/britishcomposers.html

I would love to hear his Walton 1st Symphony, all be it a radio recording.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 18, 2023, 03:36:33 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 18, 2023, 03:23:53 AMKarajan obviously liked to perform Fantasia.

 http://www.karajan.co.uk/britishcomposers.html

I would love to hear his Walton 1st Symphony, all be it a radio recording.
It definitely seems so!

I didn't know he performed Tippett too, how interesting.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2023, 03:56:26 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 18, 2023, 03:23:53 AMKarajan obviously liked to perform Fantasia.

 http://www.karajan.co.uk/britishcomposers.html

I would love to hear his Walton 1st Symphony, all be it a radio recording.
I found this for you (the first movement).  Not certain if the other movements are there too.  There's also an artificial stereo one that's been uploaded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L822wRBxnqg (provided by Naxos of America--hope that you can listen to it in your neck of the woods).

PD

p.s.  And excellent sleuthing by you!

p.p.s.  I just went to youtube and typed in "Walton Symphony 1 von Karajan".
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 18, 2023, 04:16:24 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2023, 03:56:26 AMI found this for you (the first movement).  Not certain if the other movements are there too.  There's also an artificial stereo one that's been uploaded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L822wRBxnqg (provided by Naxos of America--hope that you can listen to it in your neck of the woods).

PD

p.s.  And excellent sleuthing by you!

p.p.s.  I just went to youtube and typed in "Walton Symphony 1 von Karajan".
Here's the complete recording.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 18, 2023, 07:39:25 PM
I just thought I'd check on my memory of the Karajan Tallis Fantasia, I had thought this very odd bearing in mind the repertoire he is normally associated with. I'm glad that he conducted these works by British composers and a pity he didn't make recordings of them later in his career in more modern sound.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 18, 2023, 11:11:59 PM
I recall Karajan's Philharmonia recording of the Tallis Fantasia on EMI being pretty good. When I listen to his recordings of Strauss' Metamorphosen from the 70's and 80's I think it is a great pity he never made a proper recording with the BPO, especially since he was performing the Tallis Fantasia into the 70's.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 19, 2023, 01:14:59 AM
OT
Karajan's recording of Walton's 1st Symphony features on this CD:
http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/e/emi62869a.php
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 19, 2023, 07:25:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 19, 2023, 01:14:59 AMOT
Karajan's recording of Walton's 1st Symphony features on this CD:
http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/e/emi62869a.php
I found that too!  :) I think that I only have one from that series (with Koussevitzky), but I enjoy it.  Will be keeping an eye out for it.

I did also find it on a "rarities" recording (think that it's a CD) on YT.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 20, 2023, 12:50:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 19, 2023, 01:14:59 AMOT
Karajan's recording of Walton's 1st Symphony features on this CD:
http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/e/emi62869a.php

I don't think you could come up with a more diverse selection if you tried.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 21, 2023, 06:50:30 AM
In the Fen Country, not a piece discussed too often although a landmark in RVW's opus. I only possess a single recording which is Boult coupled with 3rd Symphony on LP. I found this interesting and worth passing on.

Part 1, http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2023/06/the-reception-of-ralph-vaughan-williams.html

Part 2, http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2023/06/the-reception-of-ralph-vaughan-williams_0453889229.html
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 21, 2023, 07:29:30 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 21, 2023, 06:50:30 AMIn the Fen Country, not a piece discussed too often although a landmark in RVW's opus. I only possess a single recording which is Boult coupled with 3rd Symphony on LP. I found this interesting and worth passing on.

Part 1, http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2023/06/the-reception-of-ralph-vaughan-williams.html

Part 2, http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2023/06/the-reception-of-ralph-vaughan-williams_0453889229.html
Thanks for that!  Just finished Part 1 and will read Part 2 over lunch.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 21, 2023, 08:08:43 AM
Quite interesting reading!  One thing that I was surprised to read is that the first recording of it wasn't made until ten years after his death!

Those rvw journals are quite interesting to wander through.  Don't know if they still have it set up this way or not, but you used to be able to download a bunch of the earlier ones and for free.  I've personally archived Nos. 1 through 40 on my computer (along with some other articles that I've come across here and there), and also, well, I just had to save this picture! 


PD

p.s.  Well, I tried to delete one of the images, but I think that it (whatever I did) took out both!  Sigh...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on June 22, 2023, 07:50:26 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 21, 2023, 08:08:43 AMQuite interesting reading!  One thing that I was surprised to read is that the first recording of it wasn't made until ten years after his death!

Those rvw journals are quite interesting to wander through.  Don't know if they still have it set up this way or not, but you used to be able to download a bunch of the earlier ones and for free.  I've personally archived Nos. 1 through 40 on my computer (along with some other articles that I've come across here and there), and also, well, I just had to save this picture! 
image.png

PD


Trust you enjoyed your lunch, PD. That surprised me too, also being the first true orchestral work.
I have not compared back to back so possibly I'm imagined it but a similarity with Holst A Somerset Rhapsody? They were very close at the time.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 22, 2023, 08:06:12 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 22, 2023, 07:50:26 AMTrust you enjoyed your lunch, PD. That surprised me too, also being the first true orchestral work.
I have not compared back to back so possibly I'm imagined it but a similarity with Holst A Somerset Rhapsody? They were very close at the time.

Boy, I haven't listened to that Holst work in ages, so couldn't make any comments.  Interesting theory though.  :)

PD

p.s.  I tried deleting one of the photos of VW and Foxy, but both went "Poof".   :(
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 22, 2023, 02:31:07 PM
In the Fen Country may not be one of Vaughan Williams' most famous compositions, but it is certainly a remarkable piece, very evocative and idyllic; it shows beautifully thrilling textures of light and shade for the richness of timbre colours and the subtle changes of dynamics often depicting a waving atmosphere, swelling in intensity and then quietening as well as for the variety of moods, sometimes peaceful and almost nocturnal, sometimes melancholic and meditative and then dreamy and intensely lyrical; at times the swaying orchestral development of the thematic lines reminds the fairy, imaginative melodies of the French Impressionism, quite compelling. Holst's A Somerset Rhapsody is a very interesting comparision, as a matter of fact they share some similarities, but not many in my opinion.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 22, 2023, 11:36:55 PM
Quote from: Irons on June 22, 2023, 07:50:26 AMTrust you enjoyed your lunch, PD. That surprised me too, also being the first true orchestral work.
I have not compared back to back so possibly I'm imagined it but a similarity with Holst A Somerset Rhapsody? They were very close at the time.


I was slightly surprised about the "first true orchestral work" idea.  Obviously there are some earlier a-typpical/student orchestral works but both The Solent and Burley Heath have more than a few musical fingerprints of the mature RVW.  And although not published during his lifetime, RVW did think well enough of the former to mine its musical material for much later scores.  I think the "firstness" of In the Fen Country is more about RVW wholly embracing the musical potential of folk-inflected themes and harmony which - as stated in the article - along with Tudor music was such a liberating force for him.  Of course the main difference between this work and Holst's Somerset Rhapsody is that the latter does use actual folk themes while the former is all original albeit in the style of folksong....
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on June 23, 2023, 11:33:26 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81cbIG3LcJL._SL1500_.jpg)

I got the Vaughan Williams Edition last week. It's a good investment for me because although I owned many of his "major" works (read: symphonies), I didn't know a lot else about his work.

OK, here's what I've listened to so far! * = first ever listen to the work.

*Toward the Unknown Region. London PO & Choir, Adrian Boult
*Dona nobis pacem. London PO & Choir, Adrian Boult
*Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm. Katin, London PO & Choir, Adrian Boult
*Magnificat. Watts, Ambrosian Singers, Orchestra Nova, Meredith Davies
*Serenade to Music, orchestral version. Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
*Old King Cole. Northern Sinfonia & Chorus, Richard Hickox
*Five Mystical Songs. Stephen Roberts, Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
*Preludes, Running Set, Sea Songs March. Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
Piano Concerto (duet version). Vronsky, Babin, London PO, Adrian Boult
*Phantasy Quintet. Music Group of London
Six Studies in English Folk Song. Eileen Croxford, David Parkhouse
*String Quartet No 2. Music Group of London
Concerto accademico. Bradley Creswick, Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
*Oboe Concerto. Jonathan Small, Royal Liverpool PO, Vernon Handley
*Variations (orch. Jacob). Bournemouth SO, Richard Hickox
*Four hymn preludes (of five; the fifth is missing, but the choral versions are on another CD). Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
Serenade to Music (singers and orchestra). London PO, soloists, Adrian Boult
Norfolk Rhapsody No 1. London SO, Adrian Boult
English Folk Song Suite. Philharmonia, Adrian Boult
The Wasps suite. London PO, Vernon Handley
*Prelude and Fugue for organ and orchestra. David Bell, London PO, Vernon Handley
Piano Concerto. Piers Lane, Royal Liverpool PO, Vernon Handley
*Concerto grosso. London PO, Adrian Boult
Tuba Concerto. Philip Catelinet, London SO, John Barbirolli
English Folk Song Suite. Royal Air Force Central Band, Eric Banks

There have been a lot of delightful surprises and one less delightful. The less delightful is that he wrote a lot of very fluffy light music that, sometimes, can trend toward the banal. I liked the Serenade to Music in its orchestral form well enough, but the sung version...oof. The words are so cheesy, and they seemed to transfer their cheese to the repeated violin solo, which I was really tired of by the end.

But the delightful surprises are so many more. I loved that first album of chorchestral stuff with Toward the Unknown Region and Dona nobis pacem (he has an extraordinary gift for lyrical vocal writing); I enjoyed the short Phantasy Quintet with his folksy influences; I got to try the orchestrated Variations. (The booklet gives no information whatsoever about the music, but these were written for band and Gordon Jacob added the strings.) And the concerto grosso for string orchestra! I had no idea that this existed at all, but it is a wonderful work, that over the course of 18 minutes goes from relatively austere, muscular writing in the style of Bliss or (maybe, pushing it) Walton to, in the finale, cracking a broad smile. What a delight. Where is it in contemporary compilations?

The chamber music is spottier for me. I didn't really "get" the second quartet on first listen, and currently am listening to the violin sonata, which is presumably some kind of ambitious early/student work. I wish the booklet provided information or at least dates!

Goals for later today: first-ever listen to Five Tudor Portraits and a relisten to Job.
Goals for next week: first-ever listens to Epithalamion, Riders to the Sea, Partita for double string orchestra, and the Mass in G Minor
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on June 23, 2023, 12:26:17 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2023, 11:33:26 AM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81cbIG3LcJL._SL1500_.jpg)

I got the Vaughan Williams Edition last week. It's a good investment for me because although I owned many of his "major" works (read: symphonies), I didn't know a lot else about his work.

OK, here's what I've listened to so far! * = first ever listen to the work.

*Toward the Unknown Region. London PO & Choir, Adrian Boult
*Dona nobis pacem. London PO & Choir, Adrian Boult
*Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm. Katin, London PO & Choir, Adrian Boult
*Magnificat. Watts, Ambrosian Singers, Orchestra Nova, Meredith Davies
*Serenade to Music, orchestral version. Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
*Old King Cole. Northern Sinfonia & Chorus, Richard Hickox
*Five Mystical Songs. Stephen Roberts, Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
*Preludes, Running Set, Sea Songs March. Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
Piano Concerto (duet version). Vronsky, Babin, London PO, Adrian Boult
*Phantasy Quintet. Music Group of London
Six Studies in English Folk Song. Eileen Croxford, David Parkhouse
*String Quartet No 2. Music Group of London
Concerto accademico. Bradley Creswick, Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
*Oboe Concerto. Jonathan Small, Royal Liverpool PO, Vernon Handley
*Variations (orch. Jacob). Bournemouth SO, Richard Hickox
*Four hymn preludes (of five; the fifth is missing, but the choral versions are on another CD). Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
Serenade to Music (singers and orchestra). London PO, soloists, Adrian Boult
Norfolk Rhapsody No 1. London SO, Adrian Boult
English Folk Song Suite. Philharmonia, Adrian Boult
The Wasps suite. London PO, Vernon Handley
*Prelude and Fugue for organ and orchestra. David Bell, London PO, Vernon Handley
Piano Concerto. Piers Lane, Royal Liverpool PO, Vernon Handley
*Concerto grosso. London PO, Adrian Boult
Tuba Concerto. Philip Catelinet, London SO, John Barbirolli
English Folk Song Suite. Royal Air Force Central Band, Eric Banks

There have been a lot of delightful surprises and one less delightful. The less delightful is that he wrote a lot of very fluffy light music that, sometimes, can trend toward the banal. I liked the Serenade to Music in its orchestral form well enough, but the sung version...oof. The words are so cheesy, and they seemed to transfer their cheese to the repeated violin solo, which I was really tired of by the end.

But the delightful surprises are so many more. I loved that first album of chorchestral stuff with Toward the Unknown Region and Dona nobis pacem (he has an extraordinary gift for lyrical vocal writing); I enjoyed the short Phantasy Quintet with his folksy influences; I got to try the orchestrated Variations. (The booklet gives no information whatsoever about the music, but these were written for band and Gordon Jacob added the strings.) And the concerto grosso for string orchestra! I had no idea that this existed at all, but it is a wonderful work, that over the course of 18 minutes goes from relatively austere, muscular writing in the style of Bliss or (maybe, pushing it) Walton to, in the finale, cracking a broad smile. What a delight. Where is it in contemporary compilations?

The chamber music is spottier for me. I didn't really "get" the second quartet on first listen, and currently am listening to the violin sonata, which is presumably some kind of ambitious early/student work. I wish the booklet provided information or at least dates!

Goals for later today: first-ever listen to Five Tudor Portraits and a relisten to Job.
Goals for next week: first-ever listens to Epithalamion, Riders to the Sea, Partita for double string orchestra, and the Mass in G Minor

Has anything been remastered? Or are they just using the same masters that were used in the previous Collector's Edition?

I have the older one, but I'm not sure if the improved packaging is worth the upgrade.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on June 23, 2023, 12:29:21 PM
Quote from: JBS on June 23, 2023, 12:26:17 PMHas anything been remastered? Or are they just using the same masters that were used in the previous Collector's Edition?

I have the older one, but I'm not sure if the improved packaging is worth the upgrade.
The only new remastering I have seen so far is for viola and harp arrangements of two miniatures. If you have the earlier box, this is an almost exact copy (Hurwitz has a video going into exact differences), and the endearing paintings on the CD sleeves are not worth the tiny, pointless booklet or the rather confusing backs of the CD sleeves, which list all the performers in a great big pileup traffic jam with (1, 4-7) or whatever after each name to denote the tracks on which they appear. Not as finessed as Warner's presentation for the Berlioz, Ravel, Prokofiev, Saint-Saens, or Ballets Russes editions.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: JBS on June 23, 2023, 12:33:44 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2023, 12:29:21 PMThe only new remastering I have seen so far is for viola and harp arrangements of two miniatures. If you have the earlier box, this is an almost exact copy (Hurwitz has a video going into exact differences), and the endearing paintings on the CD sleeves are not worth the tiny, pointless booklet or the rather confusing backs of the CD sleeves, which list all the performers in a great big pileup traffic jam with (1, 4-7) or whatever after each name to denote the tracks on which they appear. Not as finessed as Warner's presentation for the Berlioz, Ravel, Prokofiev, Saint-Saens, or Ballets Russes editions.

Thanks. I knew it's almost all the same recordings. But the old set has a tracklisting booklet and the CDs in paper sleeves, so even this is a step up.  But if there's little or no remastering, this becomes a lower priority.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Mapman on June 23, 2023, 01:36:58 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2023, 11:33:26 AMI loved that first album of chorchestral stuff with Toward the Unknown Region and Dona nobis pacem (he has an extraordinary gift for lyrical vocal writing);

Dona Nobis Pacem is great (especially Reconciliatoin)! I was able to perform it at my college.

I recently acquired a CD that includes Toward the Unknown Region. I'll try to listen soon!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2023, 01:53:45 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2023, 11:33:26 AM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81cbIG3LcJL._SL1500_.jpg)

I got the Vaughan Williams Edition last week. It's a good investment for me because although I owned many of his "major" works (read: symphonies), I didn't know a lot else about his work.

OK, here's what I've listened to so far! * = first ever listen to the work.

*Toward the Unknown Region. London PO & Choir, Adrian Boult
*Dona nobis pacem. London PO & Choir, Adrian Boult
*Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm. Katin, London PO & Choir, Adrian Boult
*Magnificat. Watts, Ambrosian Singers, Orchestra Nova, Meredith Davies
*Serenade to Music, orchestral version. Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
*Old King Cole. Northern Sinfonia & Chorus, Richard Hickox
*Five Mystical Songs. Stephen Roberts, Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
*Preludes, Running Set, Sea Songs March. Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
Piano Concerto (duet version). Vronsky, Babin, London PO, Adrian Boult
*Phantasy Quintet. Music Group of London
Six Studies in English Folk Song. Eileen Croxford, David Parkhouse
*String Quartet No 2. Music Group of London
Concerto accademico. Bradley Creswick, Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
*Oboe Concerto. Jonathan Small, Royal Liverpool PO, Vernon Handley
*Variations (orch. Jacob). Bournemouth SO, Richard Hickox
*Four hymn preludes (of five; the fifth is missing, but the choral versions are on another CD). Northern Sinfonia, Richard Hickox
Serenade to Music (singers and orchestra). London PO, soloists, Adrian Boult
Norfolk Rhapsody No 1. London SO, Adrian Boult
English Folk Song Suite. Philharmonia, Adrian Boult
The Wasps suite. London PO, Vernon Handley
*Prelude and Fugue for organ and orchestra. David Bell, London PO, Vernon Handley
Piano Concerto. Piers Lane, Royal Liverpool PO, Vernon Handley
*Concerto grosso. London PO, Adrian Boult
Tuba Concerto. Philip Catelinet, London SO, John Barbirolli
English Folk Song Suite. Royal Air Force Central Band, Eric Banks

There have been a lot of delightful surprises and one less delightful. The less delightful is that he wrote a lot of very fluffy light music that, sometimes, can trend toward the banal. I liked the Serenade to Music in its orchestral form well enough, but the sung version...oof. The words are so cheesy, and they seemed to transfer their cheese to the repeated violin solo, which I was really tired of by the end.

But the delightful surprises are so many more. I loved that first album of chorchestral stuff with Toward the Unknown Region and Dona nobis pacem (he has an extraordinary gift for lyrical vocal writing); I enjoyed the short Phantasy Quintet with his folksy influences; I got to try the orchestrated Variations. (The booklet gives no information whatsoever about the music, but these were written for band and Gordon Jacob added the strings.) And the concerto grosso for string orchestra! I had no idea that this existed at all, but it is a wonderful work, that over the course of 18 minutes goes from relatively austere, muscular writing in the style of Bliss or (maybe, pushing it) Walton to, in the finale, cracking a broad smile. What a delight. Where is it in contemporary compilations?

The chamber music is spottier for me. I didn't really "get" the second quartet on first listen, and currently am listening to the violin sonata, which is presumably some kind of ambitious early/student work. I wish the booklet provided information or at least dates!

Goals for later today: first-ever listen to Five Tudor Portraits and a relisten to Job.
Goals for next week: first-ever listens to Epithalamion, Riders to the Sea, Partita for double string orchestra, and the Mass in G Minor
You're about the only other person I've come across who also dislikes the 'Serenade To Music'. Personally. I can't stand it, finding it to be a rather twee, cloying and uncharacteristically self-congratulatory work. I also prefer the orchestral version.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: AaronSF on June 23, 2023, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: Mapman on June 23, 2023, 01:36:58 PMDona Nobis Pacem is great (especially Reconciliatoin)! I was able to perform it at my college.

I also sang the "Dona Nobis Pacem" with my university concert choir.  Lovely piece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on June 23, 2023, 01:59:52 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2023, 01:53:45 PMYou're about the only other person I've come across who also dislikes the 'Serenade To Music'. Personally. I can't stand it, finding it to be a rather twee, cloying and uncharacteristically self-congratulatory work. I also prefer the orchestral version.
I'm in good company then!  ;D When it got to the part where a trumpet fanfare plays and the soprano sings "Hark! The sweet sound of music!" (or similar words) I got almost angry! And then the part where the tenors insult people who don't like music...so very silly  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 23, 2023, 02:15:36 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2023, 11:33:26 AMand currently am listening to the violin sonata, which is presumably some kind of ambitious early/student work. I wish the booklet provided information or at least dates!


Pretty poor booklet! The Violin Sonata is a late work (1952).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 23, 2023, 02:18:11 PM
Quote[img=400x400]https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81cbIG3LcJL._SL1500_.jpg[/img]

 I liked the Serenade to Music in its orchestral form well enough, but the sung version...oof. The words are so cheesy,

the violin sonata, which is presumably some kind of ambitious early/student work.

To the bolded text can I apologise on behalf of Shakespeare.......

The violin sonata is a late/great work - 1954 according to the RVW Society website (I guess you had looked this up so this might just be a wind-up comment...?)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2023, 09:09:11 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 23, 2023, 02:15:36 PMPretty poor booklet! The Violin Sonata is a late work (1952).
Yes, the booklet is very poor. The Violin Sonata is my favourite chamber work by Vaughan William. My favourite performance is by the Music Group of London.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Brian on June 24, 2023, 07:06:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2023, 09:09:11 PMYes, the booklet is very poor. The Violin Sonata is my favourite chamber work by Vaughan William. My favourite performance is by the Music Group of London.
That's the performance in this box - it doesn't even say which violinist in the group plays (I assume Hugh Bean). I posted only five minutes into the piece and (since someone asked) had no idea it was a late work. The final movement was definitely very interesting - I'll have to listen again soon with greater context and respect.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2023, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 24, 2023, 07:06:32 AMThat's the performance in this box - it doesn't even say which violinist in the group plays (I assume Hugh Bean). I posted only five minutes into the piece and (since someone asked) had no idea it was a late work. The final movement was definitely very interesting - I'll have to listen again soon with greater context and respect.  ;D
Hugh Bean and David Parkhouse. This fine LP introduced me to the work:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Atriod on June 24, 2023, 05:06:06 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2023, 11:33:26 AMThere have been a lot of delightful surprises and one less delightful. The less delightful is that he wrote a lot of very fluffy light music that, sometimes, can trend toward the banal. I liked the Serenade to Music in its orchestral form well enough, but the sung version...oof. The words are so cheesy, and they seemed to transfer their cheese to the repeated violin solo, which I was really tired of by the end.

I've heard less RVW than you, regarding the cheese, The Sea Symphony is one work I haven't heard in years and not sure if I will again.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on June 24, 2023, 09:21:42 PM
I enjoy the Serenade to Music in spite of my dislike for Shakespeare. There is a live recording of Bernstein conducting the NYPO with vocalists which l heard one time decades ago, but all l remember is that George London was the bass soloist. The one recording l own is Boult's on EMI/Warner.

As for A Sea Symphony, l sang it as a chorister in 1985 and remain grateful for the experience. I've heard a number of recordings but remain partial to Boult's 1968 effort on EMI. The final four chords from Boult's chorus have a sonic richness that never fails to " shiver me timbers ".  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 25, 2023, 02:54:08 AM
Published Aug 2023
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 25, 2023, 03:03:11 AM
A test here:  (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxzH-l7WAAMpY6a?format=jpg&name=medium)

O.k., so after some trial and errors, I tried right-clicking on the photo itself and clicked on "Copy image address" and that worked.  I had tried clicking on the URL in the address/search (?) bar at the top and that didn't work.

I found this particular photo on the Royal College of Music Museum's website with a Twitter comment "It has come to our attention that many of your are celebrating #hugyourcatday! [etc.]."

For those of you who don't already know, the above photo is of VW with his favorite cat Foxy.

PD

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 25, 2023, 03:04:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 25, 2023, 02:54:08 AMPublished Aug 2023

Have you been enjoying the book, Jeffrey?

PD

EDIT:  Oh, I hadn't noticed that it is too be published in August of this year!  Did you get an advance copy?  Or just wanting to give us a heads up? :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 25, 2023, 04:36:24 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 25, 2023, 03:04:07 AMHave you been enjoying the book, Jeffrey?

PD

EDIT:  Oh, I hadn't noticed that it is too be published in August of this year!  Did you get an advance copy?  Or just wanting to give us a heads up? :)
Just a heads up PD. I have pre-ordered it.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on June 25, 2023, 06:36:49 AM
Quote from: LKB on June 24, 2023, 09:21:42 PMI enjoy the Serenade to Music in spite of my dislike for Shakespeare. There is a live recording of Bernstein conducting the NYPO with vocalists which l heard one time decades ago, but all l remember is that George London was the bass soloist. The one recording l own is Boult's on EMI/Warner.

As for A Sea Symphony, l sang it as a chorister in 1985 and remain grateful for the experience. I've heard a number of recordings but remain partial to Boult's 1968 effort on EMI. The final four chords from Boult's chorus have a sonic richness that never fails to " shiver me timbers ".  8)
I like both of Boult's recordings of A Sea Symphony although it was Haitink's recording which brought the work alive for me. I found Hickox's Chandos recording to be rather uninvolving and prefer his earlier EMI release.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 30, 2023, 11:07:12 PM
On Tuesday in a concert starting at 14:00 UK time Radio3 are broadcasting VW S5 in a performance by the Latvian National Symphony Orchestra, Tarmo Peltokoski (conductor).

I'll be listening to see how they handle the music. Latvia is a country that has produced many good composers and I feel that Latvian music, even some of Vasks, sounds very English. So I think there may be an affinity.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 01, 2023, 03:55:38 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 30, 2023, 11:07:12 PMOn Tuesday in a concert starting at 14:00 UK time Radio3 are broadcasting VW S5 in a performance by the Latvian National Symphony Orchestra, Tarmo Peltokoski (conductor).

I'll be listening to see how they handle the music. Latvia is a country that has produced many good composers and I feel that Latvian music, even some of Vasks, sounds very English. So I think there may be an affinity.
Sounds most interesting to hear VW in Latvia!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 01, 2023, 05:14:44 AM
A recommendation for this new release. Some sections sound slower than usual but this seems to be a valid approach - some very poetic solo violin sections and the very dramatic entry for the organ (which sounds like it was recorded in a cathedral) is given (in the best sense) the full 'Dr Phibes' treatment. I like the accompanying works as well. The other recordings of Job which I especially like are from Barry Wordsworth (Collins/Alto) and Boult (Decca and last EMI recordings):
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 01, 2023, 05:31:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 01, 2023, 05:14:44 AMA recommendation for this new release. Some sections sound slower than usual but this seems to be a valid approach - some very poetic solo violin sections and the very dramatic entry for the organ (which sounds like it was recorded in a cathedral) is given (in the best sense) the full 'Dr Phibes' treatment. I like the accompanying works as well. The other recordings of Job which I especially like are from Barry Wordsworth (Collins/Alto) and Boult (Decca and last EMI recordings):


Are the accompanying works any good?  I've not heard them before which is always a good thing when encountering something new from a favorite composer.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 01, 2023, 05:35:00 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 01, 2023, 05:31:50 AMAre the accompanying works any good?  I've not heard them before which is always a good thing when encountering something new from a favorite composer.
I love Old King Cole and this is the best performance I know. It is rather in the spirit of the English Folksong Suite although some sections I found surprisingly moving - again there is some lovely solo violin work.
I enjoy the Running Set as well. I think that you'd enjoy this release.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 01, 2023, 09:07:37 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 01, 2023, 05:31:50 AMAre the accompanying works any good?  I've not heard them before which is always a good thing when encountering something new from a favorite composer.

I've not heard this Manze recording but the reviews seem univerally positive.  For the 2 couplings both appear in a 2-disc set on EMI (Warner) "Hickox conducts RVW" and are very good.  The "Old King Cole" Ballet has an optional part for chorus which Hickox includes but Manze does not - I rather like the brief but telling presence of the choir.  The rest of the Hickox set is very fine with some lovely contributions from Bradley Creswick on violin.  The orchestra-only version of the Serenade to Music is included as well
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 01, 2023, 01:45:55 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 01, 2023, 09:07:37 AMI've not heard this Manze recording but the reviews seem univerally positive.  For the 2 couplings both appear in a 2-disc set on EMI (Warner) "Hickox conducts RVW" and are very good.  The "Old King Cole" Ballet has an optional part for chorus which Hickox includes but Manze does not - I rather like the brief but telling presence of the choir.  The rest of the Hickox set is very fine with some lovely contributions from Bradley Creswick on violin.  The orchestra-only version of the Serenade to Music is included as well
Yes, I have that very enjoyable Hickox set as well.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 05, 2023, 03:07:18 PM
I listened to the VW 5 from the Latvian National Symphony Orchestra with conductor Tarmo Peltokoski on Radio 3 yesterday. I was interested to see whether they were playing it in Riga or in concert elsewhere in Latvia or were playing it on tour (orchestras often play the the works of a host country's composer(s) when giving concerts abroad). The intro and outtro didn't make it clear but I think they were playing at home.

Anyway, interesting, nowhere near as polished as the studio recordings by Boult, Previn &c, but I wasn't expecting that. Also very fast, c.35 minutes compared to say, Previn and Haitink at 40 minutes, Boult at 37. But it brought out various aspects and details I hadn't heard before, so it wasn't a bad performance.

Anyway, worth a listen, on Radio 3's webpage for the next month or so. Or my recording:

https://www.mediafire.com/file/pf6j2sgn9mc93ah/VW_5_Latvian_NSO.mp3/file (https://www.mediafire.com/file/pf6j2sgn9mc93ah/VW_5_Latvian_NSO.mp3/file)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Abdel Ove Allhan on July 06, 2023, 08:53:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on 2023-06-23, 14:53:45
You're about the only other person I've come across who also dislikes the 'Serenade To Music'. Personally. I can't stand it, finding it to be a rather twee, cloying and uncharacteristically self-congratulatory work. I also prefer the orchestral version.
I'm in good company then!  ;D When it got to the part where a trumpet fanfare plays and the soprano sings "Hark! The sweet sound of music!" (or similar words) I got almost angry! And then the part where the tenors insult people who don't like music...so very silly

The Serenade to Music is a sublime work. You should listen to the Hyperion recording with the Corydon Singers, English Chamber Orch., Matthew Best. It also has an equally sublime Flos Campi. Both works took a few listenings to jar my jaded proclivities acquired from the early formative contact of our demoralizing cultural, intellectual and emotional indifference to actual beauty when we are confronted by it.
I doubt you will ever venture to embrace such a work as RVW's Pilgrim's Progress. You'll probably think it 'silly'. Just take a few minutes to listen to the very beginning and tell me you are not affected by it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 06, 2023, 10:04:03 AM
QuoteQuote from: vandermolen on 2023-06-23, 14:53:45
You're about the only other person I've come across who also dislikes the 'Serenade To Music'. Personally. I can't stand it, finding it to be a rather twee, cloying and uncharacteristically self-congratulatory work. I also prefer the orchestral version.
I'm in good company then!  ;D When it got to the part where a trumpet fanfare plays and the soprano sings "Hark! The sweet sound of music!" (or similar words) I got almost angry! And then the part where the tenors insult people who don't like music...so very silly

The Serenade to Music is a sublime work. You should listen to the Hyperion recording with the Corydon Singers, English Chamber Orch., Matthew Best. It also has an equally sublime Flos Campi. Both works took a few listenings to jar my jaded proclivities acquired from the early formative contact of our demoralizing cultural, intellectual and emotional indifference to actual beauty when we are confronted by it.
I doubt you will ever venture to embrace such a work as RVW's Pilgrim's Progress. You'll probably think it 'silly'. Just take a few minutes to listen to the very beginning and tell me you are not affected by it.

FYI - Vandermolen, along with many others here, is INCREDIBLY knowledgable about a vast range of music and I would take a big bet that he knows and loves Pilgrim's Progress.  I happen not to agree with him about Serenade to Music (I love it) although our musical tastes concur far more often than they differ.  But if we all loved the same music at the same time the world would be a lot duller place.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 06, 2023, 10:13:15 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 06, 2023, 10:04:03 AM...But if we all loved the same music at the same time the world would be a lot duller place.
I agree!  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vers la flamme on July 06, 2023, 12:54:30 PM
Never thought I'd live to see the day that Vandermolen is attacked for not liking Vaughan Williams  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Abdel Ove Allhan on July 06, 2023, 01:13:57 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 06, 2023, 12:54:30 PMNever thought I'd live to see the day that Vandermolen is attacked for not liking Vaughan Williams  ;D

There was no 'attack' implied to either quotees. The first paragraph quoted is Vandermolen. The second is Brian. The Pilgrim's Progress comment was directed at Brian for his "silly" comment concerning VW's Serenade. I simply disagreed with Vandermolen concerning the relative value of Serenade to Music. And judging by V's reaction to Serenade I think it would be a fair assumption to extrapolate his potential disdain for Pilgrim. Though I'm probably wrong.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Abdel Ove Allhan on July 06, 2023, 01:52:30 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 06, 2023, 10:04:03 AMFYI - Vandermolen, along with many others here, is INCREDIBLY knowledgable about a vast range of music and I would take a big bet that he knows and loves Pilgrim's Progress.  I happen not to agree with him about Serenade to Music (I love it) although our musical tastes concur far more often than they differ.  But if we all loved the same music at the same time the world would be a lot duller place.

No one is suggesting compulsory musical appetites here. I'm merely defending a glorious masterpiece by England's greatest native born composer with words by arguably the reigning master of the English language. Serenade is not for everyone. I have no beef with dodecaphonists, pantonalists, death metalists, ambientists or aleatorics (finally, a non-'ist'). I am an unreconstructed tonalist who is familiar with all of these genres of audible art, even written a little in most of them. I simply choose that form that complies with the laws of physics, mainly the overtone series.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 20, 2023, 07:05:37 AM
Are any of us going to Pilgrims Progress by the Royal Philharmonic on Monday?  I'm hoping it will be broadcast for those of us in different continents.

https://www.rpo.co.uk/index.php/whats-on/range.listevents/-?catids=190 (https://www.rpo.co.uk/index.php/whats-on/range.listevents/-?catids=190)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DaveF on July 20, 2023, 01:26:12 PM
Quote from: Abdel Ove Allhan on July 06, 2023, 01:13:57 PMThere was no 'attack' implied to either quotees. The first paragraph quoted is Vandermolen. The second is Brian. The Pilgrim's Progress comment was directed at Brian for his "silly" comment concerning VW's Serenade. I simply disagreed with Vandermolen concerning the relative value of Serenade to Music. And judging by V's reaction to Serenade I think it would be a fair assumption to extrapolate his potential disdain for Pilgrim. Though I'm probably wrong.

I think you are, as, if I remember right, Vandermolen is on record somewhere on this forum as saying that he considers The Pilgrim's Progress to be VW's greatest masterpiece.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 25, 2023, 02:40:50 AM
Yesterday I had an enjoyable day in London, meeting up with my daughter; as always, I was required to buy her a 'slap-up lunch' (to quote her own words). We visited the newly re-opened National Portrait Gallery where I was amused to find Vaughan Williams juxtaposed with British comedian Sid James (star of the 'Carry On' films and much more besides):

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 25, 2023, 04:02:10 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 25, 2023, 02:40:50 AMYesterday I had an enjoyable day in London, meeting up with my daughter; as always, I was required to buy her a 'slap-up lunch' (to quote her own words). We visited the newly re-opened National Portrait Gallery where I was amused to find Vaughan Williams juxtaposed with British comedian Sid James (star of the 'Carry On' films and much more besides:


Sounds like an interesting combo hanging arrangement!

By the way, what is a slap-up lunch (There are quite different definitions online)?

PD

p.s.  Most of all, I'm glad to hear that you had a nice time with your daughter.  :)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 25, 2023, 04:45:59 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 25, 2023, 04:02:10 AMSounds like an interesting combo hanging arrangement!

By the way, what is a slap-up lunch (There are quite different definitions online)?

PD

p.s.  Most of all, I'm glad to hear that you had a nice time with your daughter.  :)
Thanks PD - it just means a large/tasty lunch (at her father's expense). Actually she is a vegan which limits the options.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 25, 2023, 05:25:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 25, 2023, 04:45:59 AMThanks PD - it just means a large/tasty lunch (at her father's expense). Actually she is a vegan which limits the options.
I had the impression that there were now a number of restaurants that either were totally vegan or which offered quite a number of vegan options in London.  I found this:  https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/features/best-vegan-restaurants-london/

Personally, I've been wanting to visit one of Ottolenghi's restaurants (which offer an assortment of options); I've made a few of his dishes.

Speaking of which, my stomach just rumbled and reminded me that I need to fix some breakfast!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 25, 2023, 06:02:32 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 25, 2023, 05:25:16 AMI had the impression that there were now a number of restaurants that either were totally vegan or which offered quite a number of vegan options in London.  I found this:  https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/features/best-vegan-restaurants-london/

Personally, I've been wanting to visit one of Ottolenghi's restaurants (which offer an assortment of options); I've made a few of his dishes.

Speaking of which, my stomach just rumbled and reminded me that I need to fix some breakfast!

PD

His recipe books are really good "equivalents" of going to the actual places;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/P/1785031163.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_SX500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 25, 2023, 06:33:01 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 25, 2023, 06:02:32 AMHis recipe books are really good "equivalents" of going to the actual places;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/P/1785031163.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_SX500_.jpg)
Nice to know.  I've borrowed some of his books through my library system; however, ironically, I purchased "Simple" but haven't yet made anything from it!

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DavidW on July 25, 2023, 06:39:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 25, 2023, 04:45:59 AMThanks PD - it just means a large/tasty lunch (at her father's expense). Actually she is a vegan which limits the options.

I'm sure you could have done Indian. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 25, 2023, 06:40:18 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 25, 2023, 06:33:01 AMNice to know.  I've borrowed some of his books through my library system; however, ironically, I purchased "Simple" but haven't yet made anything from it!

PD

you should - its very good!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on July 25, 2023, 06:43:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 25, 2023, 02:40:50 AMYesterday I had an enjoyable day in London, meeting up with my daughter; as always, I was required to buy her a 'slap-up lunch' (to quote her own words). We visited the newly re-opened National Portrait Gallery where I was amused to find Vaughan Williams juxtaposed with British comedian Sid James (star of the 'Carry On' films and much more besides):



Good to hear that National Portrait Gallery has opened it's doors at last. Closed for refurbishment for an age!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 25, 2023, 06:47:32 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 25, 2023, 06:40:18 AMyou should - its very good!
Some favorite recipes from it?  Though perhaps post them over in the eating section.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 26, 2023, 03:54:22 AM
I just finished this book and found it to be very enjoyable. Each section focuses on Boult's recording of the symphonies or other major works like 'Job' (dedicated to Boult).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on July 29, 2023, 03:11:42 AM
The image of that book unavoidably reminded me of a Gary Larson classic:

https://ifunny.co/picture/simultaneously-all-three-went-for-the-ball-and-the-coconut-7fL2bRsj7

Anyway, the book looks interesting and is now on my list.  8)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 29, 2023, 03:56:20 AM
Quote from: LKB on July 29, 2023, 03:11:42 AMThe image of that book unavoidably reminded me of a Gary Larson classic:

https://ifunny.co/picture/simultaneously-all-three-went-for-the-ball-and-the-coconut-7fL2bRsj7

Anyway, the book looks interesting and is now on my list.  8)
Yes, I see what you mean!
The book is a good read.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 29, 2023, 05:54:38 AM
Quote from: LKB on July 29, 2023, 03:11:42 AMThe image of that book unavoidably reminded me of a Gary Larson classic:

https://ifunny.co/picture/simultaneously-all-three-went-for-the-ball-and-the-coconut-7fL2bRsj7

Anyway, the book looks interesting and is now on my list.  8)

I think they're all trying to help RVW remember his iphone password.  Boult is asking "did you try password"?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 30, 2023, 03:23:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 29, 2023, 03:56:20 AMYes, I see what you mean!
The book is a good read.
Is that some sort of magnifying glass that VW is holding?  I can't zoom in well on the cover.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 30, 2023, 05:11:57 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 30, 2023, 03:23:37 AMIs that some sort of magnifying glass that VW is holding?  I can't zoom in well on the cover.

PD

I'm pretty sure its his hearing aid which circa 1958 was not as compact as it would be these days!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 30, 2023, 05:12:22 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 30, 2023, 03:23:37 AMIs that some sort of magnifying glass that VW is holding?  I can't zoom in well on the cover.

PD
A hearing aid PD.

PS I see that RS has already answered your question.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 30, 2023, 09:52:18 AM
Ah, yes, I see now the cord going up to his ear.

How old would he have been when this photo was taken?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 30, 2023, 10:33:27 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 30, 2023, 09:52:18 AMAh, yes, I see now the cord going up to his ear.

How old would he have been when this photo was taken?

PD

Photo taken Jan. 1st 1954 so RVW was 81 and 3 months(ish)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 30, 2023, 10:36:47 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 30, 2023, 10:33:27 AMPhoto taken Jan. 1st 1954 so RVW was 81 and 3 months(ish)
Thanks!  Any idea what his hearing was like then and if not terribly good, when he started having major issues?  I don't recall hearing of big problems for him, but do realize that hearing deteriorates with age (and exposure to loud noises).

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 31, 2023, 05:51:59 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 30, 2023, 10:36:47 AMThanks!  Any idea what his hearing was like then and if not terribly good, when he started having major issues?  I don't recall hearing of big problems for him, but do realize that hearing deteriorates with age (and exposure to loud noises).

PD

I read during the first world war he was exposed to artillery fire frequently, starting to lose his hearing during WW1.  This article says:

Vaughan Williams (1872-1958)

Of these four composers, only one person's hearing loss can be definitively linked to a cause. Without a doubt, Vaughan Williams had World War I to thank for his hearing loss. He joined the Royal Army Medical Corps as a Private in 1914, then was commissioned as Second Lieutenant in the Royal Garrison Artillery, "which were responsible for the 60 pounder 'big guns' firing shells towards enemy lines." The prolonged exposure to these massive weapons meant that Vaughan Williams gradually began to lose his hearing. By his death in 1958, he, like Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré before him, was also completely deaf. And despite the condition of his hearing, Vaughan Williams too continued to compose. In fact, he had a bit of an unexpected compositional resurgence in his 70's that culminated in his 9th and final symphony in 1957. And while this piece is not nearly as well known as Beethoven's 9th symphony, also written in deafness, it is fun to draw comparisons between the two.

https://www.classicalwcrb.org/blog/2016-03-04/four-composers-and-the-music-they-never-heard (https://www.classicalwcrb.org/blog/2016-03-04/four-composers-and-the-music-they-never-heard)

Now I'm curious what is a 60 lb. gun and what does it sound like.  Could find this so can imagine it's quite loud for those poor people next to it or on the receiving end.

Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 31, 2023, 06:01:55 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 31, 2023, 05:51:59 AMI read during the first world war he was exposed to artillery fire frequently, starting to lose his hearing during WW1.  This article says:

Vaughan Williams (1872-1958)

Of these four composers, only one person's hearing loss can be definitively linked to a cause. Without a doubt, Vaughan Williams had World War I to thank for his hearing loss. He joined the Royal Army Medical Corps as a Private in 1914, then was commissioned as Second Lieutenant in the Royal Garrison Artillery, "which were responsible for the 60 pounder 'big guns' firing shells towards enemy lines." The prolonged exposure to these massive weapons meant that Vaughan Williams gradually began to lose his hearing. By his death in 1958, he, like Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré before him, was also completely deaf. And despite the condition of his hearing, Vaughan Williams too continued to compose. In fact, he had a bit of an unexpected compositional resurgence in his 70's that culminated in his 9th and final symphony in 1957. And while this piece is not nearly as well known as Beethoven's 9th symphony, also written in deafness, it is fun to draw comparisons between the two.

https://www.classicalwcrb.org/blog/2016-03-04/four-composers-and-the-music-they-never-heard (https://www.classicalwcrb.org/blog/2016-03-04/four-composers-and-the-music-they-never-heard)

Now I'm curious what is a 60 lb. gun and what does it sound like.  Could find this so can imagine it's quite loud for those poor people next to it or on the receiving end.

Thank you for that info.

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 31, 2023, 10:04:18 AM
Two other images featuring VW and hearing aids:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 31, 2023, 11:07:11 AM
Some time ago I bought a second-hand copy of 'The Record Guide' by Edward Sackville-West and Desmond Shawe-Taylor. This was the first Record Guide published in Britain and was from 1951 when the likes of VW and Bax were still alive. I was amused by how opinionated it is. Here's an extract about VW's First Symphony '[it] has never been recorded. We do not regret this, for it is not characteristic of the composer at his best and would be exceedingly hard to record satisfactorily'. At the time VW had only composed six symphonies. Of 'Job' it states 'The music is full of fine things, but on the whole the flame of inspiration burns rather low'. The only recording was the premiere one with Boult conducting the BBC SO (now available on Dutton). The Decca Boult symphony cycle lay in the future. Wood's recording of A London Symphony was available as was Barbirolli's Hallé recording of the 5th Symphony + Boult's LSO recording of Symphony No.6 which is given a very warm welcome. Bax was only represented by the 3rd Symphony (Hallé, Barbirolli) The Garden of Fand (RPO/Beecham) and by 'Maytime in Sussex' (Cohen/Sargent).
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on July 31, 2023, 05:01:05 PM
Do you think that RVW benefited or was hurt by his time at war?  I was thinking what a tremendous loss it must have been to lose his hearing but also so much was created from that experience.  What is the cost of artistry?  If he had somehow never served in war and not lost his hearing, how would his output have changed?  Clearly his early music wouldn't have changed but some of his richer, deeper works might have but what could we have heard that never were born?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Luke on July 31, 2023, 06:36:36 PM
For the book I have written I researched quite a lot about RVW and WW1, and visited some of the relevant places. Whilst training he was billeted in my local town and the surrounding area, and I visited as many of the houses he was hosted in as I could locate, as well as other connected locations such as his mess hall and the church whose organ he played and composed on. I did some local research to help find a lodging not mentioned in the literature. Some of the famous photos of VW at this time were taken here, in places I visit frequently....it gives quite a frison to be there

In the end I have had to cut all of this from the book for reasons of space!

But then I traced him on his journey to his next training post, the last one before France. This is down on Salisbury Plain, near the village of Sutton Veney. Here - runs one of three versions of the story - is where he heard the practising of the army bugler which became the heart of the slow movement of the Pastoral Symphony, one work which is particularly closely linked to his wartime experiences. This bit has made it into the book.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Luke on July 31, 2023, 06:44:36 PM
This picture, for instance, was supposedly taken in a park in the town, and those trees are still there, I think. (https://musicbehindthelines.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/vw19151.jpg)

...and this image of him with his ragtag band was taken, I think, in the same park, which is below the church where he played the organ and across the road from the house where he initially lodged

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CR4klH033lY/WGxHEmgVuRI/AAAAAAAAJ_w/b6xagJc39O8LVHWi5vtk3qQt0R4fAUHBwCEw/s1600/roads_rvw_2.jpg)
(RVW clear on the back row)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2023, 07:50:43 PM
Quote from: Luke on July 31, 2023, 06:44:36 PMThis picture, for instance, was supposedly taken in a park in the town, and those trees are still there, I think. (https://musicbehindthelines.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/vw19151.jpg)

...and this image of him with his ragtag band was taken, I think, in the same park, which is below the church where he played the organ and across the road from the house where he initially lodged

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CR4klH033lY/WGxHEmgVuRI/AAAAAAAAJ_w/b6xagJc39O8LVHWi5vtk3qQt0R4fAUHBwCEw/s1600/roads_rvw_2.jpg)
(RVW clear on the back row)
Maybe a stand-alone article?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on July 31, 2023, 10:09:22 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 31, 2023, 05:01:05 PMDo you think that RVW benefited or was hurt by his time at war?  I was thinking what a tremendous loss it must have been to lose his hearing but also so much was created from that experience.  What is the cost of artistry?  If he had somehow never served in war and not lost his hearing, how would his output have changed?  Clearly his early music wouldn't have changed but some of his richer, deeper works might have but what could we have heard that never were born?
An interesting question but difficult if not impossible to answer. I don't think that the hearing loss affected VW until he was an old man but I may be wrong. Of course he lost his friend George Butterworth in the First WW (a great loss to music generally). It was GB who encouraged VW to write a purely orchestral symphony (after A Sea Symphony) and it (A London Symphony) is dedicated to his memory. The First World War may well have influenced A Pastoral Symphony and 'Job' but it's difficult to know.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Luke on August 01, 2023, 02:08:12 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 31, 2023, 10:09:22 PMThe First World War may well have influenced A Pastoral Symphony and 'Job' but it's difficult to know.

In the case of the Pastoral he said it did, so we cab be pretty sure. Most famously in that letter to Ursula in which he wrote about his experiences in Ecoivres being formative (the 'Corot like landscape' description)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 01, 2023, 02:21:13 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 01, 2023, 02:08:12 AMIn the case of the Pastoral he said it did, so we cab be pretty sure. Most famously in that letter to Ursula in which he wrote about his experiences in Ecoivres being formative (the 'Corot like landscape' description)
Yes, that's true. It could be seen as his 'War Requiem'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on August 01, 2023, 06:05:21 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 01, 2023, 02:08:12 AMIn the case of the Pastoral he said it did, so we cab be pretty sure. Most famously in that letter to Ursula in which he wrote about his experiences in Ecoivres being formative (the 'Corot like landscape' description)

Martyn Brabbins said Pilgrims Progress referenced his experiences in the war and since that transcended his career through multiple other works, one could say the shadow of the war loomed large over much of what he did. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on August 01, 2023, 06:59:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 31, 2023, 11:07:11 AMSome time ago I bought a second-hand copy of 'The Record Guide' by Edward Sackville-West and Desmond Shawe-Taylor. This was the first Record Guide published in Britain and was from 1951 when the likes of VW and Bax were still alive. I was amused by how opinionated it is. Here's an extract about VW's First Symphony '[it] has never been recorded. We do not regret this, for it is not characteristic of the composer at his best and would be exceedingly hard to record satisfactorily'. At the time VW had only composed six symphonies. Of 'Job' it states 'The music is full of fine things, but on the whole the flame of inspiration burns rather low'. The only recording was the premiere one with Boult conducting the BBC SO (now available on Dutton). The Decca Boult symphony cycle lay in the future. Wood's recording of A London Symphony was available as was Barbirolli's Hallé recording of the 5th Symphony + Boult's LSO recording of Symphony No.6 which is given a very warm welcome. Bax was only represented by the 3rd Symphony (Hallé, Barbirolli) The Garden of Fand (RPO/Beecham) and by 'Maytime in Sussex' (Cohen/Sargent).

Ah Jeffrey, Sackville-West and Shawe-Taylor were to revise their opinion of RVW 1st. I was late to the party - not for first time :D - with the 1955 edition. By that date No.7 was recorded twice by Boult and Barbirolli. Anyway back to the 1st, they had this to say - Nevertheless, to hear the Sea Symphony again after a long interval is to realize how much good music there is in it.

I enjoy reading the essay's on each composer prior to the reviews.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 01, 2023, 10:57:52 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 01, 2023, 06:59:07 AMAh Jeffrey, Sackville-West and Shawe-Taylor were to revise their opinion of RVW 1st. I was late to the party - not for first time :D - with the 1955 edition. By that date No.7 was recorded twice by Boult and Barbirolli. Anyway back to the 1st, they had this to say - Nevertheless, to hear the Sea Symphony again after a long interval is to realize how much good music there is in it.

I enjoy reading the essay's on each composer prior to the reviews.
Interesting Lol - I recall that Shostakovich's 4th Symphony was considered 'nothing special' in an early guide.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on August 01, 2023, 12:33:24 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 01, 2023, 10:57:52 AMInteresting Lol - I recall that Shostakovich's 4th Symphony was considered 'nothing special' in an early guide.

I expect nearly every major composer in history has suffered from critical misperception at times. As far as A Sea Symphony is concerned, l was a believer from the moment l heard Boult's 1968 recording. While the local newspaper music critic was unimpressed with our performance decades ago, he at least had enough integrity to admit that he had never understood the work. His loss...
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 01, 2023, 01:18:22 PM
Quote from: LKB on August 01, 2023, 12:33:24 PMI expect nearly every major composer in history has suffered from critical misperception at times. As far as A Sea Symphony is concerned, l was a believer from the moment l heard Boult's 1968 recording. While the local newspaper music critic was unimpressed with our performance decades ago, he at least had enough integrity to admit that he had never understood the work. His loss...
It was Haitink's performance (Warner box set) which made the work come alive for me.
The same is true for Shostakovich's 13th Symphony 'Babi Yar'.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on August 01, 2023, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 01, 2023, 10:57:52 AMInteresting Lol - I recall that Shostakovich's 4th Symphony was considered 'nothing special' in an early guide.

Seems by 1955 the 4th has fallen from view. The 5th is highly rated and for the others they have this to say - At the time of writing, Shostakovich symphonies are ten in number (Nos 2 and 3 have fallen into complete disfavour; no.4 has never been performed). The celebrated 'Leningrad' contains some fine pages, but it does not improve with time. No.8 again very long and monumental and No.9 self-consciously simple mark no advance, and seem to placate the ever-changing moods of the Soviet academy. No.10, a remarkable work, was first played in this country in 1955.

I don't think such a review would be written today, Jeffrey. But is it any less valid? I find music reviews in The Record Guide and old issues of Gramophone far more interesting then those written today. After all "critic" is a shorten form of "criticise". 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 02, 2023, 12:16:37 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 01, 2023, 11:59:59 PMSeems by 1955 the 4th has fallen from view. The 5th is highly rated and for the others they have this to say - At the time of writing, Shostakovich symphonies are ten in number (Nos 2 and 3 have fallen into complete disfavour; no.4 has never been performed). The celebrated 'Leningrad' contains some fine pages, but it does not improve with time. No.8 again very long and monumental and No.9 self-consciously simple mark no advance, and seem to placate the ever-changing moods of the Soviet academy. No.10, a remarkable work, was first played in this country in 1955.

I don't think such a review would be written today, Jeffrey. But is it any less valid? I find music reviews in The Record Guide and old issues of Gramophone far more interesting then those written today. After all "critic" is a shorten form of "criticise". 

Nothing new!  A favourite book of mine - always good for a laugh;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/JjgAAOSwUcFkrmfw/s-l500.png)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on August 02, 2023, 12:50:25 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 01, 2023, 11:59:59 PMSeems by 1955 the 4th has fallen from view. The 5th is highly rated and for the others they have this to say - At the time of writing, Shostakovich symphonies are ten in number (Nos 2 and 3 have fallen into complete disfavour; no.4 has never been performed). The celebrated 'Leningrad' contains some fine pages, but it does not improve with time. No.8 again very long and monumental and No.9 self-consciously simple mark no advance, and seem to placate the ever-changing moods of the Soviet academy. No.10, a remarkable work, was first played in this country in 1955.

I don't think such a review would be written today, Jeffrey. But is it any less valid? I find music reviews in The Record Guide and old issues of Gramophone far more interesting then those written today. After all "critic" is a shorten form of "criticise". 
I'm inclined to agree Lol. Modern reviews can be rather bland or too brief.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 02, 2023, 03:37:38 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 02, 2023, 12:16:37 AMNothing new!  A favourite book of mine - always good for a laugh;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/JjgAAOSwUcFkrmfw/s-l500.png)
That looks like it would be fun to wade through.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: LKB on August 02, 2023, 04:08:06 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 02, 2023, 12:16:37 AMNothing new!  A favourite book of mine - always good for a laugh;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/JjgAAOSwUcFkrmfw/s-l500.png)

That cover has sold me, if it's in print l shall stop at nothing to obtain it.  >:D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: drogulus on December 15, 2023, 03:52:39 PM
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Daverz on December 15, 2023, 06:33:31 PM
Quote from: Irons on August 01, 2023, 11:59:59 PMSeems by 1955 the 4th has fallen from view. The 5th is highly rated and for the others they have this to say - At the time of writing, Shostakovich symphonies are ten in number (Nos 2 and 3 have fallen into complete disfavour; no.4 has never been performed). The celebrated 'Leningrad' contains some fine pages, but it does not improve with time. No.8 again very long and monumental and No.9 self-consciously simple mark no advance, and seem to placate the ever-changing moods of the Soviet academy. No.10, a remarkable work, was first played in this country in 1955.

I don't think such a review would be written today, Jeffrey. But is it any less valid? I find music reviews in The Record Guide and old issues of Gramophone far more interesting then those written today. After all "critic" is a shorten form of "criticise". 

But that review is so wrong it's grotesque.  Neither work was recieved well by the regime, to put it mildly.  They certainly didn't "placate the ever-changing moods of the Soviet academy", and both were banned after the 1948 Zhadonov decree.  Shostakovich narrowly escaped the fate of many other artists murdered by Stalin.

QuoteThat same year, many of his closest friends and relatives were imprisoned or executed, including his patron Marshal Tukhachevsky; his brother-in-law, the distinguished physicist Vsevolod Frederiks; his great friend the musicologist Nikolai Zhilyayev; his mother-in-law, the astronomer Sofiya Mikhaylovna Varzar; his uncle Maxim Kostrykin; and his colleagues Boris Kornilov and Adrian Piotrovsky. In 1937, he himself was summoned for interrogation and only escaped due to a twist of fate: his interrogator was arrested before his own appointment came. His income dropped by 75% and he ran out of money. His wife was pregnant. He kept a small suitcase packed for his inevitable arrest. He began sleeping in the stairwell out of fear. As conductor Mark Wigglesworth says: "It is hard to imagine what that kind of fear must feel like. It is impossible to know what it must feel like as a permanent condition of life."

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20150807-shostakovich-the-composer-who-was-almost-purged
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._8_(Shostakovich)#Reception
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Shostakovich)#Reception

   
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2023, 06:45:12 PM
Quote from: Irons on August 01, 2023, 11:59:59 PMSeems by 1955 the 4th has fallen from view.
Shostakovich withdrew the Fourth while it was still in rehearsal. Too hot a potato. There wouldn't be a première until 30 Dec 1961.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2023, 06:50:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 02, 2023, 12:50:25 AMI'm inclined to agree Lol. Modern reviews can be rather bland or too brief.
The celebrated 'Leningrad' contains some fine pages, but it does not improve with time.

The Leningrad has aged incomparably better than that "review" of it.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on December 16, 2023, 12:00:53 AM
Quote from: Karl Henning on December 15, 2023, 06:50:26 PMThe celebrated 'Leningrad' contains some fine pages, but it does not improve with time.

The Leningrad has aged incomparably better than that "review" of it.

Not only "that" review, Karl. A Keri Blickenstaff of Florida University in a study Re-Examining
 the Workhorse
delves into the reviewing history of the 'Leningrad'. Long, but the opening paragraph is worth reading.

 https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/blickenstaff_keri_201005_ma.pdf
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Maestro267 on December 16, 2023, 02:26:21 AM
So how bout Vaughan Williams huh?
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 16, 2023, 05:44:10 AM

Quote from: Maestro267 on December 16, 2023, 02:26:21 AMSo how bout Vaughan Williams huh?
I don't say that thought hadn't occurred to me.  😇
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on December 17, 2023, 12:33:43 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 16, 2023, 02:26:21 AMSo how bout Vaughan Williams huh?

VW is now a solitary figure, for his influence has served but to produce a steady trickle of pentatonic wish-wash.

 >:D

The world looked a different place in 1953. I don't agree with most critique but far more interesting then musical criticism of today.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 17, 2023, 05:31:26 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 17, 2023, 12:33:43 AMVW is now a solitary figure, for his influence has served but to produce a steady trickle of pentatonic wish-wash.

 >:D

The world looked a different place in 1953. I don't agree with most critique but far more interesting then musical criticism of today.
Where is that quote from Irons?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 17, 2023, 08:15:22 AM
Yah, I think Shosty needs to stay in his own "area".
For me, Shostakovich, like RVW implied was a purveyor of 'Wrong note music."
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/jul/26/ralph-vaughan-williams-visionary-genius-lark-ascending
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 17, 2023, 09:52:02 AM
Quote from: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 17, 2023, 08:15:22 AMYah, I think Shosty needs to stay in his own "area".
Oh, then you shouldn't set stink-bombs like this:
Quote from: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 17, 2023, 08:15:22 AMFor me, Shostakovich, like RVW implied was a purveyor of 'Wrong note music."
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 17, 2023, 10:21:49 AM
Just quotes. No harm, no "foul".
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Karl Henning on December 17, 2023, 11:51:39 AM
Quote from: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 17, 2023, 10:21:49 AMJust quotes. No harm, no "foul".
(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: DaveF on December 17, 2023, 12:47:31 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 17, 2023, 05:31:26 AMWhere is that quote from Irons?

PD

With apologies for butting in: it is attributed here https://www.classicalsource.com/prom/ralph-vaughan-williams/ (https://www.classicalsource.com/prom/ralph-vaughan-williams/) to "a celebrated 1950s' record guide" (presumably Gramophone).  The full quote begins by calling VW "The biggest name in contemporary English music", so perhaps they weren't fully up-to-speed with developments over the previous 20 years or so.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 17, 2023, 01:26:24 PM
Quote from: DaveF on December 17, 2023, 12:47:31 PMWith apologies for butting in: it is attributed here https://www.classicalsource.com/prom/ralph-vaughan-williams/ (https://www.classicalsource.com/prom/ralph-vaughan-williams/) to "a celebrated 1950s' record guide" (presumably Gramophone).  The full quote begins by calling VW "The biggest name in contemporary English music", so perhaps they weren't fully up-to-speed with developments over the previous 20 years or so.
Thank you...I'll read it in full (hopefully) a bit later...holidays!  Who runs the website and what kind of credentials do they have?  At first glance, I'm not seeing any info and I'm not familiar with it?

PD
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Irons on December 18, 2023, 12:34:41 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 17, 2023, 05:31:26 AMWhere is that quote from Irons?

PD

Own up time, PD. I took that quote horribly out of context.

From 'The Record Guide' Edward Sackville-West and Desmond Shawe-Taylor.
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on February 08, 2024, 01:15:08 PM
I posted enthusiastically about this CD on WAYLTN thread but I have enjoyed it so much that I thought that I'd mention it here as well. The performance of the darkly searching and eloquent String Quartet No.2 (1944) is the best I have heard. As the note-writer states it is reminiscent of the contemporary string quartets by Shostakovich, which VW almost certainly didn't know. It pre-echoes the 6th Symphony of a few years later. The Holst work was new to me but also very engaging. A fine release:
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Oates on March 14, 2024, 03:18:06 AM
Some more obscure pieces due from Dutton:

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7411
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 22, 2024, 04:19:02 AM
So yesterday was a first listen to the new Dutton/RVW disc;

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIujj7dXgAAvXGw?format=jpg&name=large)

First thing to say is its been very well played/performed/recorded by all concerned.  Two of the three scores exist because of Martin Yates' skill and adeptness at not just orchestrating idiomatically from short scores but - as is the case in "The Future" - having to compose extended passages with little or no indication of what RVW might have written.

I'm sure we all have different parameters of what makes a reconstruction/orchestration "work" and I know some dislike the idea of any such attempt.  Both "The Future" and "The Steersman" come from the 1st decade of the 20th centruy when RVW was working primarily on The Sea Symphony.  Apparently the Steersman was initially written as an extra movement (to be played before the long finale).  This exists in a short-score draft so "all" Yates had to do was orchestrate it.  The Sea Symphony fingerprints are pretty clear and baritone soloistJacques Imbrailo is excellent - so an interesting appendix along the lines of Mahler's "Blumine" as part of Symphony 1 perhaps.

The Future is big - a single 33:01 minute span and in its own right impressive and enjoyable - with that kind of ardent-eyed optimism of Ireland's "These Things Shall Be".  Somehow it doesn't sound very RVW-ish - the choral writing works well but feels rather foursquare and the melodic shapes don't have that unique feel that RVW seemed to conjur at will.  So I can enjoy this as a fine piece in its own right but for me there's too much conjecture and sincere pastiche to be called "real" RVW. (I was uneasy about Yates' skilled 'creation' of Moeran's Symphony No.2 for the same reasons...)

The Fantasia for Piano & Orchestra gets another fine performance although not one to displace the Bebbington version - here pianist Andrew von Oeyen is excellent - about 1:00 quicker than Bebbington.  The piece itself strikes me as less compelling than much even early RVW.  A bit too flashy and splashy and trying to be virtuosic for me.

The disc opens with "Flourish for Glorious John".  Only the 2nd recording I know - Slatkin included it in his RVW cycle on the disc with Symphonies 8&9.  I much prefer the dynamic Slatkin at 1:34 to the overly laboured and uncelebratory Yates at 3:05 - is there a cut/untaken repeat in Slatkin??  Whatever - Slatkin's 'feel' is far better for an uplifting miniature like this.....

So something of a niche disc which a RVW obsessive like me must have - but hard to forcefully recommend to the less committed!
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: relm1 on March 22, 2024, 05:48:50 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 22, 2024, 04:19:02 AMSo yesterday was a first listen to the new Dutton/RVW disc;

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIujj7dXgAAvXGw?format=jpg&name=large)

First thing to say is its been very well played/performed/recorded by all concerned.  Two of the three scores exist because of Martin Yates' skill and adeptness at not just orchestrating idiomatically from short scores but - as is the case in "The Future" - having to compose extended passages with little or no indication of what RVW might have written.

I'm sure we all have different parameters of what makes a reconstruction/orchestration "work" and I know some dislike the idea of any such attempt.  Both "The Future" and "The Steersman" come from the 1st decade of the 20th centruy when RVW was working primarily on The Sea Symphony.  Apparently the Steersman was initially written as an extra movement (to be played before the long finale).  This exists in a short-score draft so "all" Yates had to do was orchestrate it.  The Sea Symphony fingerprints are pretty clear and baritone soloistJacques Imbrailo is excellent - so an interesting appendix along the lines of Mahler's "Blumine" as part of Symphony 1 perhaps.

The Future is big - a single 33:01 minute span and in its own right impressive and enjoyable - with that kind of ardent-eyed optimism of Ireland's "These Things Shall Be".  Somehow it doesn't sound very RVW-ish - the choral writing works well but feels rather foursquare and the melodic shapes don't have that unique feel that RVW seemed to conjur at will.  So I can enjoy this as a fine piece in its own right but for me there's too much conjecture and sincere pastiche to be called "real" RVW. (I was uneasy about Yates' skilled 'creation' of Moeran's Symphony No.2 for the same reasons...)

The Fantasia for Piano & Orchestra gets another fine performance although not one to displace the Bebbington version - here pianist Andrew von Oeyen is excellent - about 1:00 quicker than Bebbington.  The piece itself strikes me as less compelling than much even early RVW.  A bit too flashy and splashy and trying to be virtuosic for me.

The disc opens with "Flourish for Glorious John".  Only the 2nd recording I know - Slatkin included it in his RVW cycle on the disc with Symphonies 8&9.  I much prefer the dynamic Slatkin at 1:34 to the overly laboured and uncelebratory Yates at 3:05 - is there a cut/untaken repeat in Slatkin??  Whatever - Slatkin's 'feel' is far better for an uplifting miniature like this.....

So something of a niche disc which a RVW obsessive like me must have - but hard to forcefully recommend to the less committed!

I picked this up too but mine hasn't arrived yet.  In Kennedy's book, he says "The Future" is incomplete as the sketches ended part way through as if it was abandoned.  So, it wasn't just in need of orchestration but a completion. 
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 22, 2024, 02:08:27 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 22, 2024, 04:19:02 AMSo yesterday was a first listen to the new Dutton/RVW disc;

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIujj7dXgAAvXGw?format=jpg&name=large)

The Future is big - a single 33:01 minute span and in its own right impressive and enjoyable - with that kind of ardent-eyed optimism of Ireland's "These Things Shall Be".

 ;D I love the idea of the Future being abandoned!  ;D
Title: Re: Vaughan Williams's Veranda
Post by: vandermolen on March 24, 2024, 02:42:10 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 22, 2024, 04:19:02 AMSo yesterday was a first listen to the new Dutton/RVW disc;

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIujj7dXgAAvXGw?format=jpg&name=large)

First thing to say is its been very well played/performed/recorded by all concerned.  Two of the three scores exist because of Martin Yates' skill and adeptness at not just orchestrating idiomatically from short scores but - as is the case in "The Future" - having to compose extended passages with little or no indication of what RVW might have written.

I'm sure we all have different parameters of what makes a reconstruction/orchestration "work" and I know some dislike the idea of any such attempt.  Both "The Future" and "The Steersman" come from the 1st decade of the 20th centruy when RVW was working primarily on The Sea Symphony.  Apparently the Steersman was initially written as an extra movement (to be played before the long finale).  This exists in a short-score draft so "all" Yates had to do was orchestrate it.  The Sea Symphony fingerprints are pretty clear and baritone soloistJacques Imbrailo is excellent - so an interesting appendix along the lines of Mahler's "Blumine" as part of Symphony 1 perhaps.

The Future is big - a single 33:01 minute span and in its own right impressive and enjoyable - with that kind of ardent-eyed optimism of Ireland's "These Things Shall Be".  Somehow it doesn't sound very RVW-ish - the choral writing works well but feels rather foursquare and the melodic shapes don't have that unique feel that RVW seemed to conjur at will.  So I can enjoy this as a fine piece in its own right but for me there's too much conjecture and sincere pastiche to be called "real" RVW. (I was uneasy about Yates' skilled 'creation' of Moeran's Symphony No.2 for the same reasons...)

The Fantasia for Piano & Orchestra gets another fine performance although not one to displace the Bebbington version - here pianist Andrew von Oeyen is excellent - about 1:00 quicker than Bebbington.  The piece itself strikes me as less compelling than much even early RVW.  A bit too flashy and splashy and trying to be virtuosic for me.

The disc opens with "Flourish for Glorious John".  Only the 2nd recording I know - Slatkin included it in his RVW cycle on the disc with Symphonies 8&9.  I much prefer the dynamic Slatkin at 1:34 to the overly laboured and uncelebratory Yates at 3:05 - is there a cut/untaken repeat in Slatkin??  Whatever - Slatkin's 'feel' is far better for an uplifting miniature like this.....

So something of a niche disc which a RVW obsessive like me must have - but hard to forcefully recommend to the less committed!
Thanks very much for the helpful review RS. This is in my Dutton shopping basket but I have not, as yet, clicked on 'purchase' - (no witty responses please  ;D ). I'm also interested in the Damase release as I enjoyed his 'Symphonie' so much.