Top 5 21st Century Novels?

Started by BWV 1080, May 24, 2023, 02:02:16 PM

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BWV 1080

Trolling for some new reading material once I finish my WTV / Pynchon binge, but here is mine in no particular order.  Mine are mostly big & dark

WG Sebald Austerlitz
Roberto Bolano 2666
William T Vollman Dying Grass
Jonathan Littell The Kindly Ones (Les Bienveillantes)
Thomas Pynchon Against the Day

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: BWV 1080 on May 24, 2023, 02:02:16 PMWG Sebald Austerlitz

This is the only one on your list that I've read (I even reviewed it for the Prague alt-weekly I used to write for). So far, all the Sebald I've read has been good to outstanding.

I actually haven't read many 21st c. novels. I did just acquire Helen DeWitt's The Last Samurai, because so many people said it was the best English-language novel of the century thus far. Haven't started on it yet, though.

I think Book of Numbers by Joshua Cohen (whom I know a little) deserves a mention. It certainly blew away Harold Bloom, who called it "shatteringly powerful."
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

BWV 1080

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 24, 2023, 03:34:45 PMThis is the only one on your list that I've read (I even reviewed it for the Prague alt-weekly I used to write for). So far, all the Sebald I've read has been good to outstanding.

I actually haven't read many 21st c. novels. I did just acquire Helen DeWitt's The Last Samurai, because so many people said it was the best English-language novel of the century thus far. Haven't started on it yet, though.

I think Book of Numbers by Joshua Cohen (whom I know a little) deserves a mention. It certainly blew away Harold Bloom, who called it "shatteringly powerful."

Both look interesting - not aware of either - for a moment was worried that the first book was adapted into the Tom Cruise move ;)

SimonNZ

These days I don't read much fiction and when I do it tends to be older - not because I've got anything against modern fiction, but because I've got a 3000-year backlog.

There are exceptions like Murakami, but that's not because I think he's above anyone else, but because it's now like slipping into a favorite cardigan.

I look forward to recommendations. Vollman is someone who has been on my radar but not read. What gives Dying Grass such high marks? How does it compare to his other works?




Archaic Torso of Apollo

I thought of a couple of others:

Station Eleven by Emily St. John Mandel - a flu wipes out most of the population and the survivors have to keep civilization going somehow. Understandably popular in the age of Covid. There's a miniseries based on it, but I didn't like it very much since it lacked the poignant sense of loss that the book has.

The Map and the Territory by Michel Houellebecq - a satire of the art world combined with a meta-fictional murder mystery. The two parts don't really fit together, but as is typical with this author, there are a lot of cutting and entertaining observations on the modern world.

Ravelstein by Saul Bellow - this was Bellow's last novel, and if you like his highly discursive, relatively plotless approach, it's a good one.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: BWV 1080 on May 24, 2023, 04:36:24 PMBoth look interesting - not aware of either - for a moment was worried that the first book was adapted into the Tom Cruise move ;)

It's a funny coincidence. The author (DeWitt) has complained about how the movie "buried" her book, but on the other hand, people searching for the movie might wind up discovering the book. On the other other hand, I doubt there's much overlap between the two audiences.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

DavidW

I really like Never Let Me Go.


Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: DavidW on May 25, 2023, 07:17:52 AMI really like Never Let Me Go.

That's funny, I like the other Ishiguros I've read, but I just couldn't take this one seriously, because of the whopping implausibility at the heart of the story.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Brian

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 25, 2023, 07:24:25 AMThat's funny, I like the other Ishiguros I've read, but I just couldn't take this one seriously, because of the whopping implausibility at the heart of the story.
I'm working on a list on my home computer (at work right now), but just want to say - Ishiguro is hard because my favorites of his are from the previous century. Haven't read the new one, Klara, yet.

Do you find the tech/sci-fi conceit implausible, or a plot device used inside that conceit?

BWV 1080

Quote from: SimonNZ on May 24, 2023, 07:47:54 PMVollman is someone who has been on my radar but not read. What gives Dying Grass such high marks? How does it compare to his other works?


Vollmann is quite prolific, have read Europe Central and the five Seven Dreams books (two more are planned).  Dying Grass is part of the Seven Dreams series, each of which follows a different episode in the collision of Europeans and native North Americans.  Dying Grass follows the Nez Peirce war day by day through a 1400 page slog with POVs from both sides.  It avoids every characterization and plot pitfall one can imagine in dealing with the story (its not Dances with Wolves or Fort Apache).  Like all good war books, its a tragedy.  The players, from the forgotten combatants to the leaders, notably  the pious abolitionist Otis Howard (founder and namesake of the historically black Howard University) and the coalition of Nez Pierce leaders get fleshed out as believable people of their era.

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2023, 07:27:41 AMDo you find the tech/sci-fi conceit implausible, or a plot device used inside that conceit?

Both, really. I'm being vague to avoid spoilers, but 1) I don't think the human body can survive that kind of treatment as long as it does in the story; and 2) the characters' behavior after the big reveal (which comes early) is baffling and not convincing.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Brian

#11
What a stimulating, challenging question!

I must admit that I don't favor novels as complex, metatextual, or long as many of those mentioned so far. However, I should give some of them a try. Have heard especially good things about Sebald and DeWitt.

This is a challenging question because I'm so picky about contemporary fiction. So much of it errs in some way. The novels of Paul Murray, James McBride, Kevin Wilson, and Jennifer Egan, for example, strike me as near perfect but often veer just a little bit too far towards sentimentality and a "happy ending" out of love of characters. Truth be told, James McBride is my favorite living novelist, but I appreciate that his works are of a compassionate, not dispassionate, mode.

Many American novels these days are plagued by twee, self-conscious, cutesy MFA mentality, workshopped into a turgid stylistic conformity. Even some of the current "greats" irritate me; I've never been able to finish a Franzen novel. Elena Ferrante is much better, but stylistically rather plain, while Hilary Mantel is the opposite: a self-conscious "I am a writer" style. Colson Whitehead has become extraordinary in his mature years, although his powerful The Underground Railroad suffers once you notice that every secondary character dies at the end of their chapters. Richard Powers' The Overstory actually won the Pulitzer, which qualifies it for the "Worst Great Literature" thread, because it is miserably sentimental and earnest. Impossible to finish, and badly written, too. Additionally, many minority writers from previously underpublished communities are now gaining acclaim simply for telling their communities' stories - that is to say, not posing moral dilemmas or contemplating life's essential challenges, but merely asserting, "we exist and deserve attention." Which is true and worthy, but not a brand of fiction I find engaging.

I'm about to read my first Louise Erdrich next week. Any suggestions on Geraldine Brooks?

Two books I need to revisit are White Teeth (haven't read it in 15 years) and Severance by Ling Ma, which I read during the first month of the global pandemic (because it is about...a global pandemic).

The fiction events to which I most look forward, these days, are new translations of Magda Szabo novels. The Door in the Len Rix translation is, to my experience, the best novel published in English so far this century, but it was written in the 1980s.

Having backed myself into a corner with all that complaining, here are my thoughts so far:

The Known World, Edward P. Jones
The White Tiger, Aravind Adiga
Visitation, Jenny Erpenbeck (a powerful recommendation received from this forum)
The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, Mark Haddon
The Mark and the Void, Paul Murray
five authors from five countries!

I do think, in contrast to the situation with fiction, we are currently living in a golden age of nonfiction prose. Isabel Wilkerson, Elizabeth Broom, Kathryn Schulz, David Graeber, Rebecca Solnit, Roger Ebert, Patrick Radden Keefe, Wesley Morris, Lauren Oyler (as a critic), and others are bringing nonfiction prose to creative, ingenious, exciting new places. Astonishing quality of work happening in nonfiction.

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Brian on May 26, 2023, 03:50:22 PMThis is a challenging question because I'm so picky about contemporary fiction. So much of it errs in some way.

Yes indeed. I find the following drawbacks are extremely common:

- Inability to create characters who are interesting enough to hold your interest at novel length. You mentioned Franzen, he's an exemplar of that problem. The critic BR Myers complained that most contemporary novelists seem to have a goal of creating characters who are about as gripping as the people next door. Sadly they often succeed in this.

- A need to show off how much you know. Thus we get huge info-dumps and scholarly treatises clogging up the story. Some of this is OK, even necessary at times, but often it's just bloat. Richard Powers (also mentioned by you) is guilty of this.

- A lot of navel-gazing (Brooklyn-based writer writes about being a writer in Brooklyn; writer with academic job writes about being an academic; former publishing house intern writes about her job as an intern at a publishing house, etc.). "Write what you know" taken to an unhealthy level.

And of course

QuoteMany American novels these days are plagued by twee, self-conscious, cutesy MFA mentality, workshopped into a turgid stylistic conformity.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Brian

#13
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 26, 2023, 06:20:10 PM- A lot of navel-gazing (Brooklyn-based writer writes about being a writer in Brooklyn; writer with academic job writes about being an academic; former publishing house intern writes about her job as an intern at a publishing house, etc.). "Write what you know" taken to an unhealthy level.
Yes! There are far, far, far too many novels about overeducated self-doubting artists who fret and fuss over pet political causes and do dull overeducated art.

Re info dumps, too many people think they can pull off Moby-Dick. Melville inspired the wrong kind of imitation.

San Antone

Challenging question. Since I am an avid reader I am stumped by the idea of 21st century novels.  I never read one.  I do like short story collections, and poetry.  But the novels I read are not from this century.  I keep re-reading Faulkner, Twain, and McCarthy.  I also re-read Salinger about every other year. 

I am a vociferous reader of plays: O'Neill, Shakespeare, August Wilson, Tennessee Williams, Sam Shepard and selections for the Norton Anthology of Drama.

I am afraid I am not any help for recommendations of recent fiction. I dunno, maybe I am just stuck with the authors I like and don't have much interest in new novels.  I have toyed with the idea of reading some David Foster Wallace (but he's not 21st century in any event).  But other than murder mysteries, and westerns, I don't read new "serious" novels.

Brian

#15
Well, McCarthy has a few from this century (unless you mean Mary McCarthy)! And DF Wallace has one as well: the rather erratic but often brilliant The Pale King, a study of bureaucracy, boredom, and the obsessive-pedantic personality, which unfortunately had to be put in order from start to the point he left it at death by editors, so the chapter order is somewhat arbitrary. (He only wrote two and a half novels: one young and virtuosic but very silly, one ambitious and full of both greatness and cringeworthy folly, and one unfinished.)

BWV 1080

Vollmann has 2 good short story collections- The Atlas and Last Stories

Another short story writer I like is the Aussie Gerald Murnane - very meta, but in a zen sort of way


John Dos Passos always seems to get bypassed in discussions of American writers from the first half of the 20th century, but is my favorite

San Antone

Quote from: Brian on May 26, 2023, 07:18:59 PMWell, McCarthy has a few from this century (unless you mean Mary McCarthy)! And DF Wallace has one as well: the rather erratic but often brilliant The Pale King, a study of bureaucracy, boredom, and the obsessive-pedantic personality, which unfortunately had to be put in order from start to the point he left it at death by editors, so the chapter order is somewhat arbitrary. (He only wrote two and a half novels: one young and virtuosic but very silly, one ambitious and full of both greatness and cringeworthy folly, and one unfinished.)

Yeah, Cormac - and you're right.  But since his novels are either set long ago or in the future, I don't think of them as 21st century.  And his books since The Road (his only book I couldn't finish) have not appealed to me as much as his earlier novels. But to be fair, I haven't actually read Stella Maris, and only skimmed The Passenger.

Mandryka

#18
Quote from: BWV 1080 on May 24, 2023, 02:02:16 PMTrolling for some new reading material once I finish my WTV / Pynchon binge, but here is mine in no particular order.  Mine are mostly big & dark

WG Sebald Austerlitz
Roberto Bolano 2666
William T Vollman Dying Grass
Jonathan Littell The Kindly Ones (Les Bienveillantes)
Thomas Pynchon Against the Day

My favourite 21st century novelist it Patrik Modiano, but this is a personal thing probably -- I find myself, my own preoccupations, reflected in his novels.

You should try Mathias Enard's Zone -- I can see it's been translated but I haven't read the translation. His Boussole was also good, but I can't see a translation.

Not big and dark, but Pierre Michon's books are also great favourites of mine -- I can see Vies Miniscules has neen translated as Small Lives, as before I read it in French. His Rambaud novel also excellent, if you're interested in Rambaud, and the one called Les Onzes is good if you're interested in the French revolution -- all seem to have been done in Englsish.

Michel Houelbecq is a divisive novelist, but I would argue that Extensions du Domaine de la Lutte is well worth reading -- it has been translated apparently as Whatever. It is very dark, and very funny.  1994 -- so nearly 21st century!

I read Jonathan Littell's book and feel less enthusiastic than you probably. Or rather, I thought there were some excellent things in it but ultimately I thought it was undisciplined and self indulgent.

As you can see, I don't read much English literature. There's no good reason for that!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darĂ¼ber muss man schweigen

BWV 1080

Quote from: Mandryka on May 27, 2023, 06:10:33 AMMy favourite 21st century novelist it Patrik Modiano, but this is a personal thing probably -- I find myself, my own preoccupations, reflected in his novels.

You should try Mathias Enard's Zone -- I can see it's been translated but I haven't read the translation. His Boussole was also good, but I can't see a translation.

Not big and dark, but Pierre Michon's books are also great favourites of mine -- I can see Vies Miniscules has neen translated as Small Lives, as before I read it in French. His Rambaud novel also excellent, if you're interested in Rambaud, and the one called Les Onzes is good if you're interested inthe French revolution -- all seem to have been done in Englsish.

Michel Houelbecq is a divisive novelist, but I would argue that Extensions du Domaine de la Lutte is well worth reading -- it has been translated apparently as Whatever. It is very dark, and very funny.  1994 -- so nearly 21st century!

I read Jonathan Littell's book and feel less enthusiastic than you probably. Or rather, I thought there were some excellent things in it but ultimately I thought it was undisciplined and self indulgent.

As you can see, I don't read much English literature. There's no good reason for that!

Thanks will look into those

We probably agree where Littell went off the rails at times, but I appreciate authors who take big risks with sensitive topics rather than writing perfect MFA-type books.